TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/
DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 10, 2000 Le 10 février 2000
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Broadcasting Applications and Licences/
Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente
M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère
J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller
R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller
C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
P. Cussons Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et
D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 10, 2000 Le 10 février 2000
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PHASE III (cont'd) - INTERVENTION BY/PAR
A.M.E. Records 1729
Ms Zelda Young 1733
Masters Insurance Limited 1736
Sam the Record Man 1739
Mr. John Piccinini 1747
Ms Debora De Angelis 1751
National Congress of Italian Canadians 1753
Ms Mayela Romero 1757
Professor Harbinder Singh 1761
Mr. Richard Chamberlin 1768
Mr. Cris Rosati 1772
Villa Charities 1778
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR
Radio 1540 Limited 1784
914258 Ontario Limited 1804
Fairchild Radio (Toronto) Ltd. 1819
Mr. Arnold A. Auguste 1832
Mr. B. Denham Jolly 1842
Mr. Andy McNabb 1854
CKMW Radio Ltd. 1873
Durham Radio Inc. 1887
Mr. Gary Farmer 1897
CHWO Ontario Inc. 1914
YTV Canada, Inc. 1924
Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
--- Upon resuming on Thursday, February 10, 2000
at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
10 février 2000 à 0900
8254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning and welcome back
to our hearing.
8255 Today we will hear an intervention in the
Durham application and then interventions in the CHIN
8256 As I have indicated before, every group of
intervenors we have heard, due to our desire to hear as many intervenors as
possible, we have not asked questions or engaged into discussion with
intervenors supporting the various applications. We are nevertheless interested
in what you have to say and we want to remind you that a transcript is made of
your oral intervention and it's added to the written intervention and forms part
of the record.
8257 Our lack of questioning is not a lack of
interest and your participation is most appreciated.
8258 We have to adjourn today from twelve to two,
so wherever we are in the agenda, we have no choice. We will adjourn around ten
or five to twelve. It is our forecast at the moment that we will be finished the
interventions by then and then when we resume at two, we will hear the
8259 Thank you.
8260 Mr. Secretary.
8261 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Good morning, everyone.
8262 I would just like to ask everyone's
cooperation again as I have done before during this hearing. If you could please
ensure that cell phones, pagers and so on are turned off. We would appreciate
8263 I also remind you that intervenors are asked
to keep their presentations to a maximum of ten minutes. We would appreciate
8264 I would like to call our first intervenor this
morning, A.M.E. Records. Mr. Gabrielli, please.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8265 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr.
8266 MR. GABRIELLI: Good morning.
8267 I would like to start by thanking Madam Chair
and the Commissioners for giving me to talk on behalf of Durham and for
rescheduling my appearance. As you all know, we had a death in my family, so
thank you very much for that.
8268 This is a very simple matter for me. When it
first came on my desk, I thought it was basically a hands down. We had in
Toronto a country station that served 360,000 people. When that station went to
dance, we now have no outlet in Toronto, which is the biggest city for country
8269 At A.M.E. Records, we thrive on promoting
Canadian talent. The Toronto market is a very important market for us to expose
us. We also run a production company called Gabrielli Productions. We promote
concerts. In the last month we have promoted Patricia Conroy and we have
Farmer's Daughters coming up.
8270 Unfortunately, again because we have no radio
station serving the Toronto area, we bring these acts into smaller towns like
Oshawa and Peterborough, which is a great venue but again, we are missing a big
part of the market.
8271 It's not to say that other music genres are
not important, they are just as important, but if you look at -- they
all have outlets. You got your early music to dance music. They have the CHUMs
of the world, the CISS' of the world, they are playing that music. In Toronto,
country music being the second most listened to genre in the country, it has no
outlet in Toronto whatsoever. When CISS left, they just left us
8272 Now, a lot of people may ask and maybe think
that, you know, A.M.E. Records has a vested interest in the fact that we have
country artists. Well, A.M.E. Records also has a hip pop artist, what they are
calling the biggest hip pop artist in Toronto, we have a rock artist. We have
outlets for those artists. We have outlets for hip pop artists on CISS, on CHUM
on CHFI, on 103 and 108. We have a market set for them.
8273 On country music, we don't. It is very
important to us that we have this Toronto market. Again, when it came on my
desk, I thought it was very simple hands down. We have a proven market of
360,000 people that we lost when CISS went to dance. For that reason, and maybe
that reason alone, Durham should get their 93.5.
8274 I know I have ten minutes, but it doesn't take
ten minutes I think to put across what we are trying to do here in Toronto. We
are trying to bring the big acts into Toronto. By bringing the big acts into
Toronto, we need a radio station behind us. Right now Durham has maybe a
listenership of 80,000. You bring that up to another 360,000, that's 440,000
listeners. That's a major market, especially for new talent.
8275 With A.M.E. Records, we sign Canadian artists
and Canadian artists only. Now, when you can get exposure to 460,000 people on a
new artist, that is a lot of work and that is a lot of people listening and
getting your music across. We don't have that outlet right now in Toronto.
Again, you know, repeating myself, the other music genres do have the outlet,
maybe not as much as it should be, but it's there.
8276 In country we just don't have it. I mean we
are the biggest city in Canada. Aside from Montreal, who really doesn't have a
country listenership, we don't have a country station. It is my strong opinion
that Durham really should get this hands down.
8277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gabrielli, for
your presentation and for sticking with it and for coming even
8278 MR. GABRIELLI: Thank you.
8279 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8280 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8281 We will now hear a number of intervenors, one
at a time, who wish to express their support for Mr. Lombardi's application,
starting with Zelda Young.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8282 MS YOUNG: Thank you very much for giving me
this opportunity of speaking on behalf of CHIN Radio and their application for
8283 I have been part of the CHIN family for well
over 20 years and basically grew up with the Lombardi children. As you can see,
they are all now responsible and caring adults.
8284 My dad met Johnny at CKFH and they both
believed in the dream of a multicultural radio station where people from other
ethnic groups would have an opportunity to retain their heritage and still be
8285 Johnny Lombardi had a vision of a
multicultural community and he made it happen with his persistent nature and his
sincere desire to bring ethnic groups together. If you know Johnny Lombardi, you
know that that's absolutely true. He believed in his dream, his dream of a
better Canada, and in 1966, of course, CHIN was born and my dad was the very
first producer onboard.
8286 I'm not sure if Johnny knew the impact that
CHIN had on the community. At that time selling air time was next to impossible
because CHIN was considered to be the bad side of the tracks, but within time,
respect for multiculturalism grew and CHIN, of course, and they became a
respected name in the community.
8287 As a Jew, my dad knew what our ancestors had
endured the Second World War and wanted a better life for Jews the world over.
Out of the Holocaust came the State of Israel and the opportunity for Jews to
have a homeland of their own, but what about Jews here in Canada, Toronto be
8288 There was a time when Jews were not allowed in
clubs. There was a quota on university entrance and anti-semitism was running
rampant. I knew that with the birth of CHIN radio and multiculturalism the
Jewish community, as well as other ethnic groups, would have a
8289 If multiculturalism and Johnny Lombardi had
been around earlier, had multiculturalism been a part of the fabrics of other
countries, who knows what we would have prevented?
8290 I don't need to move to Israel to be a free
Jew. I can be free here in Canada because of the CRTC's ruling and people like
Johnny. Our community needs more air time to share their similarities and their
views. I mean all the other radio stations deserve the air time I'm sure, but I
think that it's really our duty to give it to someone who can make a difference
8291 You can see that chaos is everywhere. Our kids
aren't safe in schools and they are turning to violence. We need to protect them
by giving them programming that will make them proud of their backgrounds and
opportunities to become valuable Canadian citizens. If you award the licence to
Johnny Lombardi, you give all of us a chance for a new and rewarding life today
and in the future.
8292 Thank you very much for your
8293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms
Young, for your participation in our process.
8294 MS YOUNG: Thank you.
8295 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8296 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8297 We will now hear the intervention by John
Piccinini. I gather Mr. Piccinini is not with us at the moment.
8298 In that case, I will invite Richard
Chamberlain forward to present his intervention. Okay.
8299 How about Masters Insurance Limited, Mr.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr.
8301 MR. CICCOLINI: Good morning, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much for the opportunity to come and speak to you about one of my
favourite people, John Lombardi, and CHIN Radio.
8302 Thirty plus years ago of broadcasting ethnic
languages and keeping the heritage of immigrants who otherwise would have little
or no avenue to hear what is happening by their language not knowing that
particular language of the day is something that one has to be very proud of and
John Lombardi has made this happen.
8303 The ethnic community now has expanded, moving
out from the downtown area of Toronto to the 905 zone. As you know, many of the
people that used to live in the downtown area are now going to Barrie,
Collingwood, Orillia, et cetera. I'm one of those guys that have purchased up in
8304 It is important that we have a radio station
that follows us, not necessarily for myself but to keep the heritage and the
languages that we have been brought up with.
8305 The need of 740 radio for CHIN can only expand
this avenue and I can assure you that this would only enhance the heritage that
this country is all about and has made such an incredible
8306 Before the Lombardi family into today, there
are no other families that run ethnic radio and TV stations. The one that is
existing or the ones that have existed this day have all been gobbled up by
large conglomerates. Now the programs get reduced or cancelled in many cases
because of budgetary reasons.
8307 The Lombardi family has made it a motto that
they do not go out there to make sure that they are going to cancel these ethnic
programs, but they are expanding them to other languages necessary as required.
The Lombardi family have made it a journey to where they are now and to serve
the people that you and I don't even know exist and give these people an avenue
to look forward to the many activities that the Lombardi family produces
8308 I have an 87 year old mother who lives alone
lives by CHIN Radio and in the morning, if she doesn't hear Vittoria Coco,
something's wrong. If she doesn't hear Mr. Lombardi, she says "What happened?
He's not around". She lives all day long with CHIN radio and obviously the TV
stations so that she can pick up all her avenues.
8309 By allowing Lombardi and CHIN the 740 band,
you are going to continue a tradition that in the ethnic media will never, and I
repeat never, be equalled. The point here is service. CHIN has served our
community in a phenomenal way and has made the seniors live the proper life that
they rightfully expect.
8310 One other side of the Lombardi family that I
think this panel should know about is their giving. I unfortunately in 1995 lost
a daughter to a blood problem and I can tell you at that particular time Sick
Kids Telethon and Johnny Lombardi made it so happen that some of the kids now
reap the benefit of his service, of his avenue and his giving.
8311 He does the Thalassaemia Radiothon every year,
which I am involved with. This is another bowel problem system and I can tell
you that they reap the benefit of hundreds of thousands of dollars because of
his intervention, his giving and always trying to make people a little better
and a little happier that they are in this country.
8312 He does the Caritas Telethon, or I should say
Radiothon. This an avenue of Father John Carparelli. He has an avenue of
unfortunate young people who have gotten into people with drugs, et cetera. He
does that for them.
8313 I can only tell you that your having given to
these people that particular avenue, it will only enhance not only the ethnic
community, but the people that are in need.
8314 Thank you very much.
8315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
8316 Mr. Secretary, please.
8317 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8318 I know our next intervenor is in the room.
He's Sam the Record Man, Mr. Sam Sniderman.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8319 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are not vinyl records
in your bag, are they?
8320 MR. SNIDERMAN: Well, I wish they were. They
have a value today.
8321 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's what my children tell
me is the reason why my basement is full of them, that one day they will be
valuable. My old age has been secured.
8322 MR. SNIDERMAN: I think you have more to go on
8323 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you. That's
what we need in the morning.
8324 Go ahead when you are ready.
8325 MR. SNIDERMAN: I will. Thank
8326 Thank you very much for hearing me. I don't
get too much opportunity to speak before the CRTC these days, although I started
with Pierre Juneau when he was there handing out the legislation. That's really
what I want to talk about.
8327 I know that you must have a lot of graphs and
charts and sincere promises, you know, in all these applications, but I want to
talk about the attitude which I think is going to be the most valuable criteria
that can be presented before this committee, the attitude of the
8328 To me that will be the most important
ingredient to be considered. Who will operate 740 AM? It's a very valuable
channel. Who is going to get it? I hope Johnny gets it. I'm biased, I will tell
you straight on, not only biased for the Lombardis, but biased on what they mean
to me and the community. I have had a long history with Johnny.
8329 When Pierre Juneau announced the Canadian
content legislation, I was on the second floor at King and Jarvis Street. That
was some 35 years ago. The CRTC legislation, despite all the arguments that have
come up, they were responsible for the Canadian recording industry. No question.
I will argue that point for the next seven days if you want.
8330 Without Pierre Juneau, without the CRTC, even
today, without it, goodbye Canadian recording industry which is shrinking very
much every year anyways and hopefully will not go back to where it
8331 You know, at that time, and now as well, there
was complaining, complaining by the stations, complaining by the record
companies, "You are going to bankrupt everybody with the legislation". Everybody
cried. It was that negative attitude that really delayed the success of the
8332 It took some years. You get fed up at the
beginning with the announcer that got on the radio and the man -- the
columnists that wrote "What, another Canadian recording?" It got a bad image. It
got a bad image not only in Canada with the public, it got a bad image in the
States and throughout the world. Even now, you know, you have to put up with
some of that. I'm sorry that it's there.
8333 That negative attitude really was very
destructive. It wasn't until the day where the media got to recognize the values
and the recording industry got to recognize the values of promoting the records
8334 Eventually the disk jockey would get on the
radio and he would say "Hey, another Canadian record". Just that little
difference in inflection and tone made a difference between negative and
affirmative. When we got to be affirmative, look what happened. We have got a
recording industry, Canada has, with national and multinational recording
artists. I will tell you, the CRTC deserves the credit for having done
8335 I want to paint you a little bit of a picture
of what it was in the early days in Toronto when Johnny and I sort of grew up
together. You know, Sam the Record Man and CHIN, we rocked in the same cradle on
College Street. Jews and Italians, our neighbours to the north at Bloor and
Dovercourt were Ukrainians and Russians, to the west around High Park there were
Germans and Polish, and to the east Scottish, English and Irish. Later on the
Greeks took over the Danforth. You would have had to be part of the district to
be most able to understand its needs.
8336 Johnny and Sam, we didn't become part of the
community. It's where we lived. We were part of the community to begin with and
Johnny still is.
8337 Before Sam the Record Man or CHIN, Johnny and
Sam's friendship began with a business relationship for survival. Johnny had a
grocery store, but his love was a program, a foreign language program. It was on
the radio station that was the forerunner of CHUM on Mutual Street. I remember
very well a deep voiced announcer, Vern Hill. I don't think he ever spoke
anything but English, but he was a nice guy.
8338 You know, Johnny needed records for his radio
program. At that time it was Sniderman's Music Hall -- big name,
little money. We loaned Johnny records and got advertising credits in
8339 I would love to carry on for hours with this
story because it's intriguing, even to me. In fact, they have asked me many
times to write a book on it, but I won't do that until I'm dead. I know too much
about the industry.
8340 In 1961, Sam the Record Man went to Yonge
Street and five years later, a dream came true: CHIN is born. Johnny has his own
station. With that, Johnny said "Sam, would you come on the board of CHIN". I
said "Well, Johnny, being a businessman, what do I get out of it?" He said
"Well, Sam, what do you want?" I said "I want to be able any time I ask you to
be able to promote Canadian talent on that station".
8341 We even had a guy like John Diefenbaker, the
Prime Minister at that time, on a radio call-in because I did an hour radio
show, whatever, in the morning. I don't remember back that far, but it must have
been very exciting.
8342 You know, Johnny made a deal and, typically,
his word was his bond. To this day CHIN will promote Canadian talent as a
priority. You don't need a Canadian content for CHIN. You got Johnny Lombardi
and you got his word. Believe me, in that community if you gave your word, you
didn't go back on it.
8343 In those days, the new Canadian was in a
strange new land. Sam sold them music in a language they understood and CHIN
played their music, spoke their language, was their light in the darkness, their
comforter. CHIN understood their needs, taught them, informed them, was their
news, gave them news of what was happening and they still do. CHIN respected
them. Johnny Lombardi respected them and they respected CHIN.
8344 So you ask: Why CHIN, why the Lombardis for
740 AM? Well, like I started off, it's the attitude, the Lombardis' attitude.
It's pretty hard to describe what you have lived with all your life. It's more
than a desire for them to do what they do. It's a tradition. It's a
8345 You know, I come to mind with really three
outstanding Toronto families. The similarities are striking. Ed Mirvish, a good
friend of mine, has David and David uses Ed as a role model. David uses Canadian
talent in those shows as though they were relatives.
8346 For myself, Sam the Record Man, I have got
Jason. I'm his role model. Jason was the Chair of FACTOR for quite a few years.
He's the youngest member of Roy Thomson Hall, of their board. He's following in
8347 Johnny has got Lenny. Johnny is the role model
for Lenny. Whatever Johnny said over the years, Lenny learned. If there ever was
another Johnny, it's Lenny.
8348 So you ask what is it that CHIN and the
Lombardis do best? Well, there's 30 years of proof of them working with the new
Canadians, communicating with them, teaching them. CHIN is believable, Johnny is
believable, Lenny is believable and the broader the base they have to work from,
the better it will be.
8349 You know, there are first, second and third
generation new Canadians in Greater Toronto. To me, there's great importance in
this millennium of these new Canadians, first, second and third generation. The
last millennium, I believe Canada became a voice in the world. This millennium,
and listen to this closely, I'm living on these words, this millennium I pray
that Canadians become more Canadian. We need to become more Canadian. We have so
much of value and so much to be proud of. This first, second and third
generation are the best group to work with to make this happen.
8350 You say "Okay, so what's Johnny's recipe?"
Well, he's got experience, learned the hard way. Ten years from today this
committee will be very pleased that you chose to go with the
8351 These new technologies, as they are doing now,
will challenge any and all rules. They are doing it now. The record industry is
on the cutting edge of knowing "Where do we go from here?" and in some ways the
CRTC also has that problem. It will become more and more
8352 Responsible use of the airwaves will be a
tough task. It will only be those that grew up with the service to the community
as their way of life, only those with that as their attitude, as their
tradition, only those will be able to fulfil their obligations to the country,
to the CRTC and to the community.
8353 Thank you.
8354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
Sniderman, for your presentation. I'm sure Mr. Lombardi is happy to have his
8355 Mr. Secretary, please.
8356 MR. SNIDERMAN: If at times I just smile when
you are talking, it's because I'm old and I don't hear that well. But I thank
you. I saw the light of your eyes. That was my pleasure.
8357 MR. CUSSONS: I would now like to call upon
Piccinini to present his intervention, please.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8358 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. It's a pleasure
to have you. Go ahead when you are ready.
8359 MR. PICCININI: Thank you.
8360 My name is John Piccinini. Good morning to all
of you. I will be brief. I just want to illustrate and tell you a little bit
about what I think CHIN does beyond the business of radio.
8361 For your information, I am a Senior
Vice-President of Merrill Lynch Canada. As well, I am the President of a group
called The Athletics Canada Foundation. I also sit on several fundraising
organizations and community groups in the GTA.
8362 Today I am here in a different role. I am here
as the President of the Toronto Chapter of the Colombo Lions Club. Our
organization is proud to be one of the oldest charter Lions Clubs in the GTA. As
you may know, Lions worldwide enjoys a long tradition of fundraising and
charitable work and has for years.
8363 My goal is to make you aware of CHIN's special
role within the community it serves. We are honoured to be associated and to
have been asked to be here today in support of CHIN's application to you. We
consider ourselves quite fortunate to have enjoyed a longstanding association
8364 For more than 20 years we have been able to
take advantage of our mutually unique position within the community to enhance
our fundraising activities. Over this period of time, our major fundraising
events have been held in conjunction with CHIN's annual picnic.
8365 We have been allowed to take advantage of
CHIN's multicultural appeal, their years of organizational experience and
expertise and their focus marketing ability to continually attract large
multicultural crowds to their annual event.
8366 Because of this association, we have been able
to raise and donate over $500,00 in our club's history to a variety of worthy
organizations. As an organization, we are convinced that we would not have been
able to accomplish these results without the aid and cooperation of
8367 To us this is evidence of the distinct
position that this applicant enjoys in the community in which we live and work.
Clearly, in our opinion, there is no other media organization that has such deep
rooted community ties and who consciously links those ties back to the community
they serve in charitable ways.
8368 From our vantage point, CHIN understands not
only who their market is, but equally important, how their market is evolving.
We understand that the application before you is in part a reflection of CHIN's
desire to serve a second and third generation multicultural community in Toronto
and we strongly endorse CHIN's recognition that change and their ability to
recognize and adapt to it will enable CHIN to continue to serve our community
for years to come.
8369 The positive effect of this change, we
believe, will enable organizations like ours to continue to serve community
groups that depend on charitable giving in order to survive. We look forward to
continuing our longstanding relationship with CHIN in both our future endeavours
and we are honoured that we have been given some time with you in support of
this application and to illustrate that we think CHIN's presence in the
community is much more than just a business and a radio station.
8370 There's a lot that goes back to the community
and through links with organizations like ours that CHIN enjoys. We feel we are
being a positive influence in our community.
8371 I want to thank you for your time and I
appreciate the time you have given us.
8372 Thank you.
8373 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
8374 Mr. Secretary, please.
8375 MR. CUSSONS: Our next intervention is by Villa
Charities Incorporated. I guess they are not with us at the moment, so I would
then call Debora De Angelis, please.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms De
8377 MS DE ANGELIS: Thank you. Once again, my name
is Debora De Angelis. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.
8378 Currently, most ethnic TV, print and radio
cater to my parents' and grandparents' generation, including CHIN. CHIN to my
parents and grandparents is a station where they can listen to their talk shows,
to news, all in Italian. To my parents, listening to CHIN, it's part of their
culture and identity.
8379 It occurred to me a little while back that
there was no ethnic, in my situation Italian, radio and TV shows who spoke to my
needs as a young person and as a young Italian Canadian.
8380 Although many young Italian Canadians are very
proud of their ethnicity of being Italian Canadian, there are no TV shows or
radio or print which speaks to them in their culture. So these young people are
going to other sources, sources which do not speak their language or do not
speak to their culture. They watch and read and listen to these sources every
single day. I believe little by little they are losing their identity, their
Italian Canadian identity, and culture.
8381 Young people watch and listen and read what is
relevant to them. Presently, none of my friends or acquaintances listen to CHIN
and this is quite unfortunate. Unfortunately, this generation has become
disenfranchised with what is out there for them culturally. This is very
worrisome to me as a young Italian Canadian who wants to see my culture and
traditions continue into the future.
8382 I believe with an additional radio station
CHIN would dedicate time to the issues that are relevant to young Italian
Canadians in a language forum that they would be able to understand. This
additional station would provide my generation, which is the second generation
and third and fourth generations, the opportunity to listen and enforce their
cultural identity and help make Toronto and Canada a real multicultural
8384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your
participation, Ms De Angelis.
8385 Mr. Secretary, please.
8386 MR. CUSSONS: I now call on the National
Congress of Italian Canadians to present its intervention, please. Mr.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8387 MR. GRANDE: Good morning. Thank you, Madam
Chair and Members of the Commission for giving me the opportunity to say a few
words in this regard.
8388 My name again is Greg Grande. I am the
President of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, Ontario Region. If you
will allow me, I would like to take a minute to give you a little synopsis of
what we do as community organizations.
8389 The National Congress of Italian Canadians is
an umbrella organization, representing over 1.2 million talian Canadians living
in Canada. Its overall objectives are to represent, promote, interact as an
advocate for Italian Canadians and to foster the evolution of a better Canada
through mutual understanding, good will, cooperation between all
8390 Founded in 1974, the National Congress
consists of a national executive headquartered in Ottawa, seven affiliated
regions, each representing a geographical division of Canada, an affiliated
district, local district within each region, the number of which varies with the
concentration of Italian Canadians. All three levels of the Congress, though
functionally autonomous, share common objectives set out by the
8391 The Ontario Region of the National Congress is
an incorporated, non-profit organization which represents over 650,000 Italian
Canadians residing in the Province of Ontario. It's comprised of an executive
committee and a regional assembly. It's primary function is to deal with issues
of interest to Italian Canadians which have a province-wide
8392 Along with wearing the hat of President of the
Ontario Region, I am also representing Mr. Calella, who is the President of the
Toronto District, which is the largest in Canada for the simple reason that
within the GTA we have over 500,000 Italian Canadians here.
8393 Both organizations strongly support the
application to the CRTC of Radio 1540 Limited, CHIN, to operate a new ethnic
broadcast service on 740 AM. Why do we, a community organization, represent
Italian support to this application?
8394 The CHIN application conceptually recognized
the needs of Toronto evolving ethnic groups who were formerly content with the
multilingual fourth language programming. CHIN knew 740 AM would provide a new,
innovative, bilingual, cross-culture programming which would serve as a bridge
between the culture groups, educating, informing, entertaining and promoting
cultural diversity through understanding it and celebrating.
8395 If we are to believe that cultural linguistic
diversity is an integral part of Canada and a fundamental characteristic of our
society, then we must ensure that this diversity is recognized and
8396 Thirdly, this new service reflects the
evolution within the multi-ethnic communities and the higher level of
integration into a multicultural Canadian society.
8397 Fourthly, the new 740 AM service would provide
additional programming choices to 25 distinct cultural, linguistic groups in the
Greater Toronto area, making the listening preferences of a broad range of
underserved first, second and third and maybe fourth generation ethnic
8398 Fifthly, the new service on 740 AM would
provide the solution to the ongoing technical problems of poor reception of
CHIN's night-time signal as the 740 AM frequency will have a clear reception to
many listeners previously unable to tune in to CHIN AM at night.
8399 Sixthly, CHIN has a proven financial track
record and strong roots within the multicultural communities which have been
served by CHIN for over 35 years. It has the knowledge and experience and thus
it is well positioned for growth and expansion in the ethnic broadcasting
8400 Personally, I have been here in
Canada -- I am one of the 26,000 immigrants from Italy who came in
1955. Since I came, I have had quite a close association with CHIN programming,
with the Johnny Lombardi grocery stores, because there I would go and hear and
have a piece of my own country when I first arrived and I couldn't identify with
anything else but that and then hear my music, my folk music, my opera arias and
hear cultural events that were developing here in our community. That gave me an
impetus to be a volunteer in the community.
8401 Johnny Lombardi has been quite a mentor to me
personally, not so much because I feel very close to him, but because he
provided to me an example and model to follow in terms of getting involved in
8402 Johnny Lombardi and CHIN Radio have practised
multiculturalism before multicultures were in existence. For that reason I feel
very strongly, myself and the organization I represent, both the Ontario Region
and the Toronto district, that Johnny Lombardi and CHIN are the best
organization which is well set up to take over 740 AM.
8403 I feel that Radio 1540 will make a truly
significant continued contribution to multiculture in our city and
8404 Thank you.
8405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Grande, for
8406 Mr. Secretary, please.
8407 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8408 We will now hear an intervention by Mayela
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8409 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms
8410 MS ROMERO: Good morning.
8411 Good morning, Madam Chair and CRTC counsel. I
take part in CHIN Radio by participating in T.O. Latino every Saturday from 9:30
to 2:00 a.m. Actually, I am not on air until 2:00 a.m. until 10:30 to be
8412 One of the issues and the reason why I am here
today is to represent the young Latin Americans of this community. We have
basically grown into Canada, either arrived to Canada or been born here, and
having to face "What do I speak?". Many stations at this present time do
have -- you know, some do have Spanish, but we are faced with Latin
Americans that either came here and have children that don't speak Spanish and
what we offer on our show, particularly on my show, is that we speak
8413 Actually to make a point, Magna De La Torre,
the producer of our show -- the Latin American review of Grammy Awards
will be done in three languages: Spanish, Spanglish and English. As we can see,
Spanglish is actually becoming a language in our society. Whether some people
like it or not, it is a necessity for our youth.
8414 We basically prefer to speak their language
than not to know our Latin American language at all. Unfortunately, at this time
at CHIN Radio, we only have an hour to do this. We need more time to
communicate, especially the youth out there, and I thank CHIN Radio for giving
us the opportunity.
8415 Now, we know that this application will
provide time for us from 7:30 till approximately 12:00 a.m. and that would be
from Monday to Friday. We do need this time. We appreciate and acknowledge your
time today for helping us and I would actually like to speak to you to some
things that with that hour's time that I have had we have been able to
8416 CHIN Spanish programming has worked with
various organizations and community members in order to communicate with one
another and keep our Latin American community informed. I would like to mention
8417 LINK, which is a program of English as a
second language, is sponsored by the government and offered to our Hispanic
community. We have also taken part and communicated with the community in
regards to fundraisers from natural disasters such as Hurricane Mitch and the
disastrous rains in Venezuela.
8418 Most recently, a case that has involved a
Spanish youth. Her name is Elizabeth Murillo, who requires a bone marrow
transplant. I strongly believe because it was mentioned as well in English that
the outcome was so great in the clinic that was held at Monsignor Johnson on
8419 One thousand and ten potential donors showed
up that day and many of them were youth, basically speaking to us that we were
able to reach some of those people that could be potential donors, meaning we
could have found, which we don't know yet as of this day, if we did find a
8420 I felt very special, to be honest with you, to
have contributed in some way. It was because we were able to speak Spanglish and
communicate with the youth that are sometimes scared to speak Spanish because
they don't know it completely like their parents, but nevertheless they do want
to learn. The Spanglish gives them the incentive to do so.
8421 We also support those who come to Canada and
study English, so basically it's those coming from Mexico, Venezuela or Chile
and various other Latin American countries. They come to study at the
universities. They tune in to our program because we also help them with their
English, so everyone in a sense, every youth, is benefiting from
8422 CHIN Radio's application would help us all. I
not only sit here for myself for CHIN, for the program, I sit here in front of
you because of the youth. Instead of being at school today, I am here with you
addressing the issue which I consider very important.
8423 What better example than myself. I have lived
through these experiences and I know what it feels like. Do I speak Spanish or
do I speak English? I choose to speak both.
8424 Thank you very much.
8425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms De La Torre,
for your participation.
8426 Mr. Secretary, please.
8427 MR. CUSSONS: We will now hear an intervention
by Cris Rosati.
--- Pause / Pause
8428 MR. RHÉAUME: I guess that intervenor is not
with us at the moment, so I would then call upon Mario Silva.
--- Pause / Pause
8429 MR. CUSSONS: In that case I will call on
Professor Harbinder Singh.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Professor
8431 MR. SINGH: Madam Chairperson, Members of the
CRTC and friends, good morning. My name is Harbinder Singh. I came to Canada
from India as a landed immigrant about seven years back and now I am a Canadian
8432 I retired as a senior lecturer from Calsa
College, Delhininistry, India, and taught for 26 years Punjabi language to
teachers, Punjabi culture, history of civilization and Sikh philosophy to
undergraduates, honest graduates and postgraduates.
8433 In Canada, I have been deeply involved in
understanding and promoting the process of integration, unfortunately a very
slow one, of the Canadian ethnic communities.
8434 The Canadian radio and TV programs in general
play a good but Canadian role in this regard. However, in my considered opinion,
CHIN radio and TV programs have played a perceptible role in understanding the
circumstances of this area of human interaction and understanding the
fundamental steps toward the harmony of the multicultural society of Canada,
particularly with the South Asian communities.
8435 Today, this morning, I am going to speak on
the Indian programming on CHIN radio, the good features of the program. The
immigrants who have settled in Canada have a wonderful family composition. Here
I would like to mention that I lecture in a school. In the class there were 28
students -- sorry, 32 students.
8436 One of the students was the son of my friend.
I delivered a talk on comparative religion. Later on I came to know in family
from my friend that out of 32 students in their class, 22 were living with a
single parent. Only four were living with both their parents.
8437 In our case, we have a family composition
which is very collective. In every second house in the South Asian communities,
particularly with the Navi communities you will find grandparents, then the
children and grandchildren living together. I have four daughters, one son and
11 grandchildren and I treat all of them as a single family. We meet together as
a single family. We enjoy life. We listen to radio and TV programs
8438 In Canada, this collective family is now
undergoing a transformation. The new generation is coming up. English is their
first language. So I start the immigrants who have settled in Canada "Have a
wonderful family composition". They have seniors who have no or very little
knowledge of English and then the second generation who can speak both English
and their own mother tongue, Punjabi in my case. The children who know English
as their first language also have a deep liking for their own cultural
8439 I have a grandson who is five years old. He
was born here. Now whenever there is an Indian program on TV or the radio, he
will call "Grandma, Granddad, come, Indian program. Come, listen Indian
program". Now he is also participating and learning. He wants to dance with
Indian programs. He speaks English. In the streets he intermingles with Canadian
boys. He speaks good English, but at the same time he also speaks Punjabi and
tries to participate in the TV and radio programs.
8440 They have seniors who have no or very little
knowledge of English and then the second generation who can speak both English
and their mother tongue and the children who know English as their first
language also have a deep liking for their own cultural
8441 Such radio programs who fulfil the needs of
the listeners, taking into consideration the family composition, are always
relevant and popular and have a large number of listeners and admirers and CHIN
Radio is one of such radio programs.
8442 The Indian programs on CHIN Radio are
bilingual. There is some English and Hindustani and also in Punjabi. Language
are very particular and relevant in view of the composition of Asian
8443 I have been given to understand that a lot of
material has been put before the Commission about the Hindustani on language.
It's a wonderful chapter in the history of India. The emergence of Urtu and
Hindustani as a common language of the different people. It reaches the people,
crossing the boundaries of religion and other lines of contradiction. For
instance, the Hindus are Muslims. They have a lot of mutual contradictions, but
they use the same language in general to communicate with each
8444 When I learned English in India, I was in
fifth class. My teachers would say "Write simple sentence. Don't use bombastic
words. Use only one subject or one object. This is a table. It has four legs. It
is made of wood". That way they taught us to write correct English and to
8445 CHIN Radio is doing their thing. The
linguistic culture which they have developed on the radio programs is wonderful.
The Indian programs on CHIN Radio, they are bilingual, in English and Hindustani
language, are very practical and relevant in view of the composition of Asian
families where children, both school going and college going, understand English
and prefer English introductions to the programs and seniors who understand
Hindustani are also benefited.
8446 The classical, modern, filmy, religious and
folk music is presented in such a wonderful combination that it is difficult to
miss it and it gives this output to all kinds and groups of listeners. The old
and new songs are very popular with the South Asian listeners. As a matter of
fact, the Indian music in the family is the organizing principle. It makes the
family to sit together and listen together in the after lunch, after dinner.
They enjoy this music.
8447 The old and new songs are very popular with
the South Asian listeners. The fundraising programs for various wonderful causes
affecting the whole Canadian society at large and some families in extreme
distress, irrespective of caste, creed, religion, race, colour, country or any
other consideration is, in my considered opinion, a wonderful feature of this
CHIN Radio program.
8448 The CHIN picnic has contributed a lot to the
recreational needs of the community and the multicultural society living in
Toronto. The Indian radio program is prepared for the work in this
8449 Then the talk shows. I happen to listen to a
lot of talk shows on CHIN Radio. These talk shows on various current topics
affecting the community which are arranged in the Indian programs of CHIN Radio
are very informative and very useful. Listeners do not miss these talk shows and
wait for such programs.
8450 For instance, the programs on health. The
level of information and understanding of the seniors in my community is not
that high, but in very simple language, for instance, Dr. Sidu Kain on the talk
show, and he explained wonderful points about the health which even my wife nor
I did know and we enjoy their program.
8451 The CHIN Radio is an applicant for the new
frequency 740 AM and I wholeheartedly support their application with the hope
that they will give more time, I repeat it, they will give more time to the
Indian programs which will benefit the immigrants not only from Indian, but also
from Pakistan and Bangladesh, Nepal, who like Indian music very much. The whole
belt, they enjoy Indian music. As a matter of fact, this was one belt, if we
read the history, it is a wonderful chapter of multiculturalism, races joining
8452 I fully support the application of CHIN Radio
for new frequency 740 AM with the hope that they continue, I repeat it, they
continue and enhance the scope of their good work on the radio for the benefit
of the society in the same way they have been doing in the past.
8453 The children of the immigrants take keen
interest in these programs and that way remain in touch with their cultural
musical heritage and other folk heritage.
8454 Thank you very much.
8455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Professor Singh,
for your participation.
8456 Mr. Secretary, please.
8457 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I
would now like to invite Richard Chamberlin to present his intervention,
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8458 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr.
8459 MR. CHAMBERLIN: It is with great pleasure that
I express my endorsement in support of the application by CHIN Radio TV, Johnny
Lombardi, to the CRTC for a 740 AM radio licence today.
8460 I have been a General Motors franchise owner
in the City of Toronto since 1991 and prior to that I was employed since 1975 by
the franchise I now own. The location of the franchise is on Dufferin Street
just south of Yorkdale Shopping Centre. It was and still is in the middle of
many multicultural communities that I have had the pleasure of servicing for
8461 It is more important than ever to recognize
and communicate with the ever growing and diversified cultures that make Toronto
and Canada such a unique and wonderful place. With this in mind, it has been
essential to the growth of my business to establish strong relationships with
various media sources to help establish my presence in the multicultural
8462 As a longstanding client of Johnny Lombardi
and CHIN Radio TV, I am pleased to say that they continue to be a family based
company with values and standards that regularly exceed the clients' and
audiences' expectations in quality programming. They continue to research and
execute progressive programming that is unparalleled, in my opinion, to other
8463 I strongly recommend that CHIN Radio TV be
considered for approval for a new licence because of their experience and
monumental dedication and commitment that they have demonstrated to the
multicultural community through the progressive and diversified
8464 I thought to bring a little bit of
perspective, I brought a letter that I just received from Genereral Motors to
bring some perspective to it. General Motors is from a national standpoint and a
global standpoint one of the largest companies in the automotive industry. This
letter was addressed to me. I guess it's significant and indicative of the
experience that I have had over the past years. It's addressed to me
"We would like to extend our sincere thanks to you and your team for a
tremendous year in 1999. Richard, we are extremely proud and formally
acknowledge you as the largest Chevrolet retail volume dealer in Canada and the
second largest retail volume
8465 A little bit of an explanation there. I am a
Chevrolet Oldsmobile franchise. General Motors has five franchises, Pontiac,
Buick and Cadillac. I am the second largest in the total scheme of things.
" -- an accomplishment that is realized through tremendous
leadership and commitment and passion for the business. Moreover, you have
personally played an instrumental role in General Motors' success through
Toronto. Your constructive contributions as a member of the think tank in
Chevrolet Oldsmobile RMB Board, it's energizing to be a part of the same
8466 I looked at this letter. I'm gratified and
excited about what's taking place with General Motors. Again to bring a little
bit of perspective I joined Dean-Myers Chev Olds in 1975. I was 19. It's a
family based business. Dean-Chev Olds, Dean Myers is a brand name I feel in the
ethnic community. When I say it's a family based business, Dean Myers is my
8467 I had a great opportunity. I have got two
great men in my life that have taught me a lot. One is Dean Myers and the other
is Johnny Lombardi. I don't know if he realizes it today, but a lot of the
success that I attribute to what's been done not only goes to the people that
work for me, have been part of my team, but I can probably say that I have
designed and organized a staff that is complementary to the Lombardi
8468 The principles and ethics that he has employed
over the years have been a tremendous benefit to me, my business and the people
that work for me.
8469 With that, short and brief, I strongly
recommend that he be considered for this licence.
8470 Thank you very much.
8471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chamberlin. As
you know, we called your name earlier this morning but you weren't here. When I
saw the letterhead, I thought that somehow or other he will get
8472 MR. CHAMBERLIN: There were a couple of
accidents on the 401.
8473 Thank you so much for hearing
8474 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8475 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8476 I would now like to call on Cris Rosati.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8477 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr.
8478 MR. ROSATI: Good morning and thank you very
much for the opportunity to address everyone this morning.
8479 My name is Cris Rosati. I am an Arts
Consultant with the Ministry of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation for the
Province of Ontario. I have worked in the cultural performance industry for
about 15 years here in Toronto, most recently at Ontario Place as the
Entertainment Manager there. Prior to that, I worked in the United States and
mostly in Vancouver as an Arts Programmer, Theatre Programmer and a Festival
8480 I first met the Lombardis and CHIN through my
work at Ontario Place. We had a number of partnerships that we worked together,
bringing a variety of cultural programming down to Ontario Place. I have to say
the experience was excellent on every front.
8481 The Lombardis, as has been said already today,
are an excellent family and run a superb shop and have a tremendous reach in the
community and have access to fantastic performers and many cultures that provide
food and events and wonderful offerings. They brought them down to Ontario Place
and my experience with them was tremendous. So that's a little bit about my
relationship with CHIN.
8482 I am here in support of CHIN's application to
operate a new ethnic broadcast service on 740 AM. I sit before you as a third
generation Italian, an involved member of the cultural community but, more
importantly, as a citizen of Toronto.
8483 The direction CHIN wishes to head with this
service is a mere image of what I see is contemporary Toronto and contemporary
Canada. It is inclusive. It is representative of the broad cultural landscape
that is Toronto. It is this broad reach of the application and the work that
CHIN does that I find so attractive. Its appeal to me is
8484 Number one, the bilingual nature is a welcome
mat to new Canadians who can receive programming in their first language, but it
is supported by English language so you get the best of both, which is what is
going on in their experience here in Toronto.
8485 It is a way to connect third generation
Canadians such as myself to our past and to the present of the countries of our
8486 Thirdly, that which I find very appealing and
I believe adds a lot to the richness of Toronto and is important to the young
people of Toronto, is that it represents a rainbow of cultures, their music,
their news, events, food, available for the culturally curious, which I consider
8487 As a father of two, my wife and I, with the
support of educational curriculum, work very hard to expose and to educate our
kids to the varieties of culture that there are out there, all that is rich, all
that is wonderful about the people of the world.
8488 Thanks to the many events, the programming
activities and the excellent radio and television that the folks at CHIN put out
through their radio and TV, through their picnic, through their shows that I was
involved in personally at Ontario Place, at Wonderland and various locations
across the city, my family and I have been exposed to a number of wonderful
events that we might not have had had they not been around.
8489 An expanded broadcast service will be a
tremendous tool for CHIN to continue and expand and grow the important work that
they have been bringing to Toronto for years and years, bringing the world to
Toronto and showing Toronto the world.
8490 As a side note and as a member of the
performance community, the availability of a radio station that will provide air
time, producers' work, on air work for people new to this country, working in
their first language as well as their second language, playing music, having
their music exposed they brought with them from their other country, is truly a
8491 I have worked and lived as a cultural
professional and as an artist across the country and in the United States. I
have never encountered an entity that is so inclusive and is a vehicle for work
of such a broad scope as what Johnny Lombardi and CHIN makes available to these
artists. I think it's truly a gift.
It's a gift for the city, it's a gift for the listeners and it's a gift for
8492 With that, I wholeheartedly endorse the
application for the service on 740. I think it would be excellent for the City
of Toronto and its citizens and the people who are coming here from other
8493 That's all I have to say for the
8494 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your
8495 Mr. Secretary, please.
8496 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we do have two
remaining intervenors with us this morning. I'm advised that unfortunately it
looks as if they won't be able to join us. Specifically, I'm talking about Villa
Charities and Mario Silva, but we do have their interventions and, of course,
these will be taken into account.
8497 If you agree, I would suggest that perhaps
this would be an appropriate time to take a break. Perhaps we could stick to our
schedule of starting Phase IV at two o'clock this afternoon to give all of the
competing applicants time to assemble and finalize their presentations, if you
8498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
8499 We will resume then at two o'clock. We are
satisfied that anyone who was going to appear and may be here has been given a
chance to appear.
8500 MR. CUSSONS: Yes. I just confirmed with Mr.
Lombardi that in fact these two remaining intervenors are unlikely to be with
8501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
8502 We will resume then at two o'clock this
afternoon with the replies.
8503 Nous reprendons à deux heures. Merci.
--- Pause / Pause
8504 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Is that what is
called getting there by the skin of your teeth? Good morning. We are happy to
8505 MR. LOMBARDI: Is this fine?
8506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't speak too close to it
because you will get a boom.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
8507 MR. DILULIO: Thank you. Good morning. My
apology to you, Madam Chair and the Members, my apology to the other people I am
keeping behind. It's unfortunate I'm late.
8508 My name is Pal DiLulio. I am the Executive
Director of something called Villa Charities. Some of you may have heard of the
projects of Villa Charities, namely Villa Colombo Home for the Aged, namely
Columbus Centre here in Toronto, namely Vita Community Living Services and a
number of other apartment buildings.
8509 It's a cultural/social organization that's
been around for approximately 30 years, just slightly less than the CHIN Radio
and multicultural broadcasting that I am here to support. I like to think that
in fact both CHIN and whatever my organization -- it's not
mine -- but our organization has done have been parallel and in fact
have been very helpful to each other.
8510 We 30 years ago needed to, I guess, share the
message of what we wanted to do. It was a younger community back 30 years ago, a
community that was trying to prove that it was here in Canada to stay, that it
wanted to contribute and that it wanted to in a sense look after itself and then
share with many, many others the good of the cultural heritage and we did that
primarily through the Italian Canadian media initially and CHIN was right up
there from day one, along with some of the other radio and TV stations who have
also been very good.
8511 It has been about 30 years and a lot has
changed. Today there are many, many people who were 30 years younger 30 years
ago, which is creating a dilemma for us as social planners, as community
planners in terms of what do we do, where do we go. We are presently as I speak
to you planning on either doubling or renewing what we are doing at Lawrence and
Dufferin which 30 years ago was the northwest extremity of Toronto. Today it is
almost a centre point of Toronto.
8512 We are planning to move some of the activities
or augment some of those activities to places in Vaughan and Woodbridge. Why?
Because the community has moved. Likewise, CHIN was primarily geared at this
community 30 years ago and this community primarily lived south of Steele, south
of the 401. That community has now expanded and gone, as I explain in my letter
of December 22, all over the Greater Toronto area.
8513 There are new challenges, continuing
opportunities for CHIN to serve that community, but in a different way. I am 50
years of age and I still think I'm young. There's about 75,000 to 80,000 people
who are of Italian origin who are between the ages of 65 and 80 and CHIN has
been one of those constants in their lives.
8514 It has given them comfort, it has given them
an opportunity to understand the bewildering changes in their lives from rural
to urban, from agricultural to industrial. I think it has helped them settle in,
helped them feel at home here in Toronto.
8515 In turn, the products of this generation,
myself, my children and many others, are going on to new challenges. I think
CHIN wants to continue to serve that segment of the community which perhaps is
looking for different needs. The reality out there is that we all speak two or
three different languages simultaneously and at the same time. At least I do in
my home and my home isn't that different from many other homes across
8516 I think it's very, very important that
although I believe that language is the primary conductor of a culture, there
are many other ways and aspects to conduct that culture. I strongly believe in
what is called ethnic broadcasting.
8517 I strongly believe that what CHIN can do under
the new requested licence is to include my children and thousands of other
children of their age into this generation where they are made to feel at home,
comfortable with their grandparents, comfortable with their
parents -- in this case I'm just the old fogey -- and
comfortable with the emerging reality of the world. It's very much multilingual,
8518 I think that those areas that the Italian
community and the Italian culture can share, has to be able to share with the
many other aspiring communities and culture in Toronto. At the point in time the
only commonality becomes the English language.
8519 I grew up at a time when it wasn't popular.
I'm not quite as old as Mr. Johnny Lombardi, but I remember when it wasn't
popular to be Italian. You know, at best I was a "spaghetti bender" or a "Wop"
when I was going to school. I am glad to see that my children of the same age
are now associated with what I call the Gucci-Pucci-inferucci
8520 A lot of that has happened because my parents,
our parents, have worked very hard, because our community has, you know, given
and taken its share of the pie and because I think we have contributed to the
greater fibre here in Metro Toronto.
8521 I believe that CHIN in its new licence
request, as I understand it, will help this new -- I didn't want to
use the word millennium, but I will use it -- this new millennium,
this new generation. I can certainly see the next 20, 25 years that, perhaps in
my own life, that's very, very important to me, very, very important to many
others in the Italian community that in a sense represent the first generation
of young kids who got off the boat and who are here living kind of still a
double life of being Italian at home or Italian Canadian at home and being
Italian somewhere else in the greater community.
8522 I could go on and on, but I'm sure you have
heard more eloquent or better technical speeches than mine. I'm simply here to
register my personal support and that as the Executive Director of Villa
Charities, one of the primary organizations within the Italian community in
Metro Toronto, in support of Mr. Lombardi's application for 740
8523 Thank you very much. I will be pleased if you
have any comments or questions to stick around. I'm sorry again to make you work
8524 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was a pleasure hearing
you. We are pleased that you made it and that I could find my colleagues to hear
8525 MR. DI LULIO: Gracia. Merci.
8526 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8527 Mr. Secretary -- I believe this is
it, Mr. Lombardi.
8528 We will now adjourn until two at which time we
will hear replies.
8529 Nous reprendons à deux heures.
--- Recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035
--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400
8530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
8531 Mr. Secretary.
8532 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8533 We are now at Phase IV of our competitor
process where we invite our competing applicants in reverse order to come back
to respond to any and all interventions. For this we accord a maximum of ten
8534 Again, I would really appreciate it if members
in the audience switched off any cell phones and pagers.
8535 Having dispensed with the preliminaries, it's
my pleasure again to introduce Radio 1540 Limited. Mr. Lombardi.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8536 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you. Good day, Madam
Chair, Members of the Commission. It's indeed a pleasure for us to be here once
again in this, the final phase of these proceedings.
8537 I would like to quickly introduce our panel
once again. To my left, the President of CHIN Radio, my dad, Johnny Lombardi. To
my right, Stephen Zolf, our legal counsel of Heenan Blaikie. Behind me is Mr.
Bob Culliton, General Manager and Vice-President of Finance of CHIN Radio, and
beside him, my sister, Donina, Vice-President of Promotions and Public
Relations. My sister Theresa couldn't be here with us this afternoon as she is
out of town on business.
8538 Before we proceed with our oral presentation,
I would like Mr. Zolf to address the panel.
8539 MR. ZOLF: Thank you.
8540 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, the
purpose of CHIN's appearance today is twofold. First, CHIN will address the
issues raised by the other applicants and by appearing intervenors in reply with
respect to the merits of the application.
8541 Second, CHIN also wishes to address the
materials that were filed by the City of Toronto and that we circulated to the
applicants yesterday in connection with the issue of the transmitter lease
arrangements on Toronto Island in response to the Commission's
8542 With the Commission's indulgence, those
comments on the procedural issues -- are the procedural issues raised
by that lease -- will take an additional five minutes to discuss over
and above the substantive aspects of the application and we expect to go no more
than 15 minutes.
8543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Agreed, Mr.
8544 MR. ZOLF: Thank you.
8545 I would first like to begin with Infinity
Broadcasting. In its appearance earlier this week, Infinity dismissed CHIN's
proposed bilingual format for 740 and stated that it does not conform with the
Commission's accepted model for ethnic broadcasting. In reply, Infinity has
obviously misunderstood our proposed format and the benefits that it will
provide, which are essentially threefold.
8546 First, our new format significantly increases
programming diversity in the ethnic market. Second, it ensures little or no
overlap with the programming formats of other broadcasters through efficiencies
and by repositioning programs among our 1540 AM and 740 AM services. Finally,
third, it provides new service to ethnic groups who currently are underserved or
unserved by existing ethnic radio stations.
8547 Infinity also asserts that our application has
neither the support of nor the sensitivity to South Asian listeners. We take
issue with this comment and remind the Commission that CHIN has been programming
to the South Asian community for over 30 years. As much as 20 per cent of our
entire schedule on 100.7 FM service is dedicated each week to South Asian
cultural programs that are comprised predominantly in the Hindustani
8548 This longstanding relationship is reflected by
the hundreds of letters that CHIN received from our South Asian community
supporters towards our application.
8549 We also reject Infinity's contention that our
application ignores Hindustani audiences. CHIN's proposed 740 service will offer
an additional 28 hours of South Asian programming each week, much of which, if
not all, will be attractive and inclusive of the same audiences that Infinity
proposes to serve. In total, CHIN will offer over 51 hours of South Asian
programming if our application for 740 is approved.
8550 Nor does our proposed format abandon third
language listeners. This comment by Infinity effectively ignores the key
components of today's ethnic market, namely second and third generations who
have a desire for new cross-cultural programming.
8551 CHIN's service on 740 would be inclusive of
both language and culture, bringing together first and subsequent generations
among our South Asian listeners and, third, filling a key void in the ethnic
8552 CHIN concedes that in the early days of
immigration, it was not possible to separate culture and language. However, the
reality of today's ethnic market has seen language and culture effectively
decoupled with language often taking a more secondary role.
8553 Our proposed service on 740 would effectively
provide a bridge between our core audiences for third language programming and
new second and third generation audiences who desire at least an element of
English language programming.
8554 We are also puzzled that Infinity feels that
CHIN's new service would not reflect the needs of new immigrants when our
--- Technical difficulties
8555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Should we take a five minute
break while we get this organized?
--- PAUSE / PAUSE
8556 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Where did I leave off? Oh,
8557 Our proposed service on 740 would effectively
provide a bridge between our core audiences for third language programming and
new second and third generation audiences who desire at least an element of
English language programming.
8558 We are also puzzled that Infinity feels that
CHIN's new service would not reflect the needs of new immigrants when our
application clearly contemplates new third language programming to as many as 25
distinct cultural and linguistic groups, many of whom are unserved or
underserved in today's ethnic radio market.
8559 We submit that our proposed format meets the
objectives set out in the new ethnic broadcasting policy and attains an
appropriate balance between quality of service on the one hand and serving a
minimum number of linguistic groups on the other hand. This will significantly
increase diversity and choice for many ethnic listeners in the Toronto radio
8560 Now I would like to address Mr. Alvarez'
8561 Mr. Alvarez, on behalf of CIRV FM, dismissed
our proposed bilingual format and suggested that CHIN should be content with
introducing bilingual programming on our existing services. In reply, we suggest
that such a strategy would merely be lip service to this audience. Moreover, it
would be difficult to wedge such a format into our current services which would
only serve to alienate our existing third language audiences.
8562 CIRV also suggests that we did not follow the
results of the Comquest survey which noted that Italians are less attracted than
other ethnic groups to the idea of bilingual programming, but this conveniently
ignores the other key elements that CHIN considered in constructing our
8563 Among these elements are the vast potential
audience of Italian listeners to the bilingual programming format, the fact that
the Italian community represents the largest and most loyal component of CHIN's
current audience base and the economic viability of programming aimed at these
groups. Who better would know this than CHIN? We have been programming to the
Italian community for nearly 35 years.
8564 Mr. Alvarez also raises the prospect of a CHIN
740 service as a major competitive threat. The basis for this claim is CHIN's
proposed 16.5 hours of additional Portuguese programming on 1540 AM. Other than
this segment of new Portuguese programming, Mr. Alvarez did not identify which,
if any, of our remaining programming would be detrimental to CIRV. That is
because CHIN in reality poses no threat to CIRV.
8565 What Mr. Alvarez calls a competitive threat
are in reality economies of scope and scale that will, for the first time, allow
the Toronto ethnic radio market to transcend its limitations and offer the
diversity that the ethnic market needs and deserves.
8566 Mr. Alvarez states that the market cannot
sustain any additional Portuguese programming, yet CIRV recently received a new
SCMO service consisting of 24 hours daily of Portuguese programming. This
suggests that there is a significant appetite for new Portuguese programming. It
also illustrates just how insignificant our proposed 16.5 hours of Portuguese
programming is relative to the total Portuguese programming offered by all of
CIRV's broadcasting operations.
8567 CIRV notes that CHIN's new Portuguese
programming would represent a 26 per cent increase in CIRV FM's Portuguese
schedule, but this conveniently ignores the amount of Portuguese programming on
8568 In reality, our proposed segment would
represent a mere 8 per cent increase over CIRV FM's and the SCMO's total
Portuguese programming schedule. Nevertheless, Mr. Alvarez is seeking the
Commission's assistance in maintaining the status quo despite the fact that his
broadcast operations already provide almost 200 hours of programming to the
8569 CIRV also alleges that our Portuguese
programming segment has targeted the lucrative morning drive slot, yet we note
that CIRV does not in fact air any Portuguese programming during this period.
CIRV has instead elected to broker much of this time slot to Fairchild Radio for
programming directed to the Chinese community.
8570 It is no coincidence that our proposed
Portuguese programming has been scheduled at times when CIRV does not air
Portuguese programs. CHIN has carefully constructed its 740 AM and 1540 AM
schedules to ensure that existing services will not be harmed.
8571 In fact, during his appearance before the
Commission, Mr. Alvarez confirmed that he will continue to broker Chinese
programming to Fairchild during the morning drive period. This statement only
served to confirm our decision to provide a discrete segment of Portuguese
programming which will fill a real void in the market with no impact whatsoever
on CIRV's Portuguese listeners.
8572 Mr. Alvarez also suggests that this is not
enough for CHIN to refrain from scheduling Portuguese programming against CIRV's
Portuguese language programming and that any new additional programming in this
language would be detrimental to CIRV.
8573 We expressly disagree and suggest hat Mr.
Alvarez's full time SCMO in Portuguese language suggest that there is a
significant audience for Portuguese programming. This conclusion was also
supported by our advertising survey which revealed a significant propensity for
more spending by Portuguese advertisers.
8574 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Finally, we are
concerned that Mr. Alvarez has left the erroneous impression that CHIN has now
decided to enter the Portuguese market for the first time. To the contrary, CHIN
has a longstanding record of service to Portuguese audiences. Portuguese
programming has made up more than 15 per cent of our schedule on our FM service
for over 30 years.
8575 In summary, CHIN has carefully conceived its
format to serve a mix of second and third generation bilingual listeners and
underserved or unserved languages. Moreover, our format has been designed to
only minimally overlap with the formats of existing ethnic stations, including
8576 Nevertheless, we would be happy to agree to an
appropriate condition of licence with respect to our Portuguese programming
initiatives if that would allay Mr. Alvarez's concerns.
8577 I would like to briefly discuss the issue of
the technical limitations of 1504 AM. Mr. Alvarez suggested that CHIN has
already been provided with adequate relief by virtue of our low power FM
repeater for 1540. In reply, we note that in fact CHIN applied for a 450 watt
repeater, but could only obtain an authorization for a mere 22 watts. Not
surprisingly, CHIN's technical difficulties were not solved.
8578 And finally, CIRV has referred the Commission
to a 1994 decision denying an application for an ethnic service in support of
his opposition to CHIN's service. With respect, this decision has little
relevance to CHIN's application.
8579 The 1994 application proposed limited service
to as few as 11 groups with no established audience demand or proven untapped
advertising revenues. By contrast, CHIN has proposed a diverse programming
format aimed at far more cultural and linguistic groups, with an added
innovative and unique bilingual programming format, all of which will be
attractive to advertisers and to new audiences.
8580 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: And now I would like to
turn to the Fairchild intervention.
8581 During oral intervention on Monday, the
Commission requested CHIN to seek information from the City of Toronto with
respect to the future status of our transmitter facilities on the Toronto
Island. Yesterday we filed with the Secretary General of the Commission two
letters from the city which provide clarification on this issue. Copies of these
letters are included with this presentation.
8582 The letters form the city confirm that while
both Fairchild and CHIN have no renewal options under their respective leases,
the city has a specific process in place to deal with these leases prior to
their expiry in December 2001.
8583 As per standard operating procedure with all
city tenants, the city would initiate a process approximately nine months prior
to the December 2001 expiry date to begin community consultation and specific
negotiations on financial and operational aspects of the lease.
8584 While the city cannot commit to a renewal at
this time, the negotiating process is laid out in such a way that all of the
relevant issues can be considered well in advance of the expiry of the
8585 Finally, no formal communication with either
Fairchild or CHIN have indicated that either lease will not be
8586 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Obviously one cannot
predict the future with complete certainty. We cannot guarantee the ultimate
outcome on our part and on Fairchild's part to successfully negotiate a new
lease. However, the city has now clarified that it will begin a process "to deal
with the leases so that all of the relevant issues can be considered well in
8587 An equally important inference that can be
drawn from these letters is that CHIN and Fairchild are unquestionably in the
same boat. There are no reasonable grounds to conclude that CHIN and Fairchild
will realize different outcomes with respect to the future of their lease
arrangements, assuming that each party uses its best efforts to secure a renewal
of their lease.
8588 If the leases cannot be renewed, we too would
have little in the way of options with respect to alternative transmitter sites.
This was explained in the engineering brief filed with our application which
detailed the technical limitations governing our AM 1504 transmitter facilities.
Therefore, we find ourselves in like circumstances to that of
8589 However, we submit that the city's
clarification paves the way for an outcome which will enable Fairchild and CHIN
to ultimately remain on the Island. What must be kept in mind is that ever
possible effort will be brought to bear to achieve a successful conclusion for
all parties concerned.
8590 We also note that the landlord in this case,
the City of Toronto, is no ordinary landlord. The city has a real incentive to
ensure that these two prominent ethnic radio services remain on the air and
continue to serve their audiences.
8591 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Nevertheless, if the
Commission is still moved to grant Fairchild's application, then we submit that
you must also grant CHIN's application. Otherwise, the status quo will only be
preserved for Fairchild at the expense of our 1540 AM service.
8592 This could be accomplished by granting
Fairchild's application for the 93.5 FM frequency which we note is Fairchild's
preferred frequency while also granting our application for 740
8593 Under a scenario in which the Commission is
actually persuaded that island leases will not be renewed, only these dual
licensing decisions would preserve the status quo in the Toronto radio market.
Granting Fairchild's application for 740 alone would result in a catastrophic
termination of CHIN's service on 1540 AM.
8594 To summarize our position, we submit that the
city's clarification of the lease issue now provides sufficient comfort for the
Commission to examine CHIN's application and other applications proposing new
services for the 740 AM frequency on their merits. It is reasonable for the
Commission to conclude that Fairchild's application no longer requires
consideration for either the 93.5 FM or 740 AM frequencies.
8595 Finally, a brief word in rely to some of
Fairchild's concerns raised during its appearance earlier this week. It is not
CHIN's objective to seek to increase the amount of programming directed to the
Chinese community on our proposed 740 service, nor on our existing AM and FM
services. CHIN has no plans to increase its Chinese programming beyond a daily
one hour block.
8596 Fairchild cited the fact that we conducted a
study with respect to listeners in the Chinese community as somehow an
indication of our intention to increase the amount of Chinese programming on our
current services or on 740 AM. In reply, we note that the sole purpose of
conducting the survey was to assist us in better serving our existing Chinese
audiences on 1540 AM and 100.7 FM.
8597 Fairchild also questions CHIN's intentions
with respect to increased Chinese programming on our existing AM and FM
services. Other than the proposed scheduled changes filed in our application, we
are contemplating no changes to any other programming. The only increase in
Chinese programming on any of CHIN's services will be during the hours of 6:00
a.m. to 7:00 a.m. on weekdays, totalling a mere five hours of additional
programming directed at Chinese audiences.
8598 As we have stated, the primary impact of
repositioning our services is on our own programming, namely a substantial
component of our current Italian programming which we plan to move from 1540 to
740 AM. The remainder of 740's schedule and the repositioned programs on 1540
have specifically been designed to minimize the impact on other services. In
fact, CHIN would be willing to accept an appropriate condition of licence with
respect to our Chinese programming.
8599 For all of the reasons in this presentation,
we urge the Commission to see clear to approve our application and to dismiss
the concerns of the intervenors.
8600 We appreciate the opportunity to submit our
comments and we would welcome any questions at this time.
8601 Thank you.
8602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, both Mr. Lombardis
and Mr. Zolf.
8604 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam
8605 For the record, Mr. Lombardi, we will admit
the two letters from the City of Toronto on the record for now and we will await
comments from other applicants as they come forward, if that's okay with
8606 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, thank
8607 MR. RHÉAUME: Two questions for you at this
point and for the benefit of the audience, these are questions I will be raising
with each and every one of the applicants as they come forward.
8608 The first one is relatively easy.
Implementation by condition of licence within a year, is that
8609 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, that would be
8610 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Now, the other one has
to do with alternative frequencies, especially on the AM band, what is known in
engineering circles as the extended AM band. I was just wondering if you had
explored with your engineers the extended AM band in terms of potential sites
and workability of any frequency and the cost attached,
8611 Have you explored any of this with your
8612 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would have to say that
recently no, we have not explored any alternate frequencies. However, we have in
the past sought remedies to our deficiencies with regards to 1540 and looked at
various other scenarios, all of which failed and were
8613 MR. RHÉAUME: Did you look at scenarios
involving the extended AM band, do you recall?
8614 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I believe in our brief we
did. We filed the information on our brief in our attempts to look at
alternative frequencies on the extended band, but my dad can probably answer
that better than I can.
8615 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: Our engineers have
informed us all along that the extended band would not work on our present
towers so that we would have to find a location before that extended band, but
it would not cover all the area that we needed.
8616 It was a very low power situation and we
discounted that. That's why we went after a repeater on the FM, hoping that we
would get 450 watts, but we finally had to settle for 22. That was because our
engineers told us the most -- the better route was to go on the
8617 MR. RHÉAUME: Do you recall, Mr. Lombardi, if
those discussions went into specific alternate sites and the costs
8618 MR. JOHNNY B. LOMBARDI: I don't remember the
actual costs. I just remember that the engineers said it would not cover the
areas that we are looking to cover and it would be at best a very weak signal at
a tremendous cost. We don't know what that cost was, of course.
8619 MR. RHÉAUME: I thank you and these are my
questions at this time.
8620 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would just like to add
that anything on the extended band from 1540's perspective would just be moving
from bad to worse. The kind of engineer that we had would be during daytime
would be ten kilowatt, night-time one kilowatt and those specs were for the 1610
on the extended band.
8621 MR. RHÉAUME: I thought I was finished, but did
you look at 1670, for example?
8622 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: 1670. No, we didn't do any
study on that. Counsel, if I may just add to that. There is evidence already on
the record of this hearing from, I believe, Mr. Elder talking about the
deficiencies with any transmitter facility between 1610 and 1700 which I believe
was raised on February 3, discussing the limitations southbound of that
frequency -- pardon me, southbound, one kilowatt at night and ten
kilowatts daily and our engineer, I believe, has taken the same view as set out
in our engineering brief filed in our original application.
8623 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8624 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Zolf, we were just
following Mr. Lombardi's advice which I recall was when he has any illness, he
goes to many doctors.
8625 Thank you very much.
8626 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I'm feeling sick right now
8627 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your
reply. That completes your participation, I guess, unless you may proceed from
8628 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you very much, Madam
Chair and Commissioners.
8629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We
enjoyed having you here.
8630 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam, and
thank you, Commissioners.
8631 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8632 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8633 I would now like to invite 914258 Ontario
Limited, also known as Infinity Radio, to come forward and reply to all
8634 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you are ready, Mr.
8635 MR. RAY: Thank you
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8636 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, good
afternoon. My name is Neety Prekash Ray. On my right is Mr. Jim Robson, our
Broadcast Consultant. On my left is Renu, my wife and partner in Infinity. On
her left is our Marketing Consultant and partner and B consultant, Mr. Hans
8637 On behalf of Infinity Broadcasting, I would
first express our heartfelt thanks and appreciation to the 1,172 intervenors who
filed letters in support of our application. Both Renu and I were moved beyond
words by the many expressions of support and the passionate outcry for third
language programming to their communities. The letters were thoughtful,
intelligently written and reflected a good understanding of our application and
the beneficial impact it would have on their communities, if
8638 Madam Chair, Infinity has already responded in
detail to most of the eight interventions filed in opposition to our
application, including CIRV, CIAO, Fairchild and CHIN radio. We do wish to reply
further to the CIRV, Fairchild and CHIN's intervention.s.
8639 First,with respect to CIRV's assertion that
Toronto's ethnic communities are well served. The 22 communities involved with
Infinity strongly disagree. Our application is based on the needs of the nine
unserved and 13 badly underserved multicultural communities that we are
targeting rather than simply duplicating what is already well
8640 CIRV further states that Infinity will have a
serious impact on existing ethnic broadcasters. Again, this is not the case. By
extending service to its 22 targeted communities, Infinity will create new radio
dollars and growth in the ethnic broadcast market. As such, the impact on
existing stations will be minimal as Infinity's revenue will almost exclusively
accrue from new growth in the market.
8641 In response to a question from the Commission
as to which of the two ethnic applicants would be the least disruptive, CHIN or
Infinity, CIRV acknowledged that Infinity would have less impact on existing
8642 CIRV also stated that existing ethnic
broadcasters could look after the needs of these unserved and underserved
multicultural communities within the Greater Toronto market.
8643 Infinity would note that current ethnic
stations do not have the airtime to make any meaningful impact on unserved or
underserved third language communities unless they reduce service to existing
multicultural communities. A "robbing Peter to pay Paul" approach is not the
answer to providing an acceptable level of quality programming service to the
unserved and underserved third language communities.
8644 We would add that if existing broadcasters
were really interested in expanding their service horizons within the Grater
Toronto ethnic market, then they too would have answered the Commission's call
for 740 AM and 93.5 FM.
8645 It is both unfair and unacceptable for over
two million ethnic Canadians within the extended contours of 740 AM to remain
unserved or badly underserved at the whim of existing stations who are more
interested in maintaining the status quo than in extending service to those who
need it most.
8646 CIRV also stated that the Commission should
impose a condition of licence on Infinity with respect to not targeting the
8647 In this regard, Infinity has no interest in or
future intentions to include Portuguese programming in our service mix. Infinity
will be focused on extending its service to the 22 cultural groups we propose to
serve. We would have no difficulty with a condition of licence not to serve the
8648 Finally, we take very serious issue with
CIRV's claim that there is enough South Asian programming in the GTA and the
South Asian community understands both Hindustani and Punjabi language based
8649 First, this tired argument about the South
Asian community are already well served is simply wrong. Infinity and its
proposals would be foolish to file this application unless the need and service
and commercial opportunities were proven. We would not have received over 1,000
letters of support from the South Asian community if their needs were already
being met, nor would Toronto's South Asian community have found it necessary to
revert back to cross-border tuning and advertising if the proper programming and
advertising vehicles were in place in Greater Toronto.
8650 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I learned only yesterday
that U.S. station WTOR has added another hour to its daily program schedule to
better respond to the demand for Hindustani programming from Grater Toronto's
South Asian community.
8651 Until a few days ago, WTOR was providing
Hindustani programming from 8:00 to 9:00 a.m and from 3:00 to 4:00 p.m. They
have extended their afternoon schedule by one hour, from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. for a
total of three hours per day and you can be rest assured that as aggressive
American broadcasters, sensing a huge market opportunity, WTOR will continue
adding more hours to fulfil the demands of Toronto's South Asian
8652 As a proud Canadian, a member of the South
Asian community and an ethnic broadcaster, I find it repugnant that we have to
turn to another country to address our broadcasting needs.
8653 The only segment of the South Asian community
that is well served are those persons who immigrated from the Punjab state of
India. In this regard, there is a ready supply of Punjabi programming which is
only understood by and relevant to about one fifth of the total South Asian
community of 500,000.
8654 Infinity is therefore surprised at the lack of
knowledge, understanding and sensitivity shown by CIRV with respect to the South
Asian community and their statement to the effect that the whole community
understands both Hindustani and Punjabi.
8655 As the Commission well knows from our
application and from the many letters and from the appearing intervenors
yesterday, such is not the case. Whereas many Punjabi persons understand
Hindustani, the South Asian community as a whole does not understand or relate
to the Punjabi language.
8656 On a final note with respect to the CIRV
interventions, Infinity would underline the fact that its Radio India program,
complete with 61.5 hours of Hindustani programming, coexisted in the Toronto
market for years without as much as a peep or complaint from these same ethnic
broadcasters who today want to close ranks on Infinity because they somehow
perceive us as a threat.
8657 MR. RAY: Turning next to the Fairchild
intervention, it is Infinity's view that the solution to Fairchild's perceived
transmitter site leasing problem lies beyond this public hearing process and the
necessity to lay claim to one of the last remaining high power public
broadcasting frequencies that would otherwise be used in a more productive
manner in extending service and adding new programming diversity and listener
choice to the many unserved multicultural communities within Greater Toronto and
southern Ontario. While Infinity is not insensitive to Fairchild's situation, we
are more sensitive to the unfilled programming needs of the 22 multicultural
communities we hope to serve.
8658 It is Infinity's sense that the Governor in
Council in directing the Commission through its Order in Council to reserve
frequencies and 93.5 and 740 for the use of radio services in Toronto, and I
quote, "which will contribute to the achievement of the objectives of Canada's
broadcasting policy" had perhaps envisaged a different utilization of these last
remaining high power frequencies than having one of them allocated to an
existing licensee who may or may not have a problem with his
8659 Infinity object to Fairchild's strategy of
using this highly competitive public hearing process as a bargaining tool to
settle with what is essentially a commercial issue between Fairchild and the
City of Toronto and between CHIN and the City of Toronto. Of course, we know now
that a letter from the City of Toronto is on record which was received yesterday
8660 While the granting of 740 AM to Fairchild
would be an easy and cost effective way out of its alleged leasing problem, it
would be a colossal waste of a diminishing public resource, given that Fairchild
by its own admission stated that the extensive service contours of 740 AM are
surplus to their needs.
8661 It would also be extremely unfair to other
applicants. Infinity has put forward a comprehensive ethnic broadcasting plan
that will extend service, lend programming diversity, add greater listener
choice, narrow the service disparity gap between multicultural communities and
optimize the utilization of 740 AM's service contours, among many other public
8662 What is frustrating in all of this is that
Fairchild is shadow boxing with a hypothetical landlord/tenant situation which
will in all likelihood be resolved through negotiation with the City of Toronto.
In the meantime, Fairchild is asking the Commission to grant them priority
status over a new ethnic licensee on the basis that come December 31, 2001, they
may or may not be evicted.
8663 Against this background, it's Infinity's view
that Fairchild should not hold any priority status, licensee or not, over other
prospective applicants for either the 93.5 FM frequency, their stated
preference, or for the 740 AM frequency, whose extensive service contours are
surplus to their needs.
8664 MS RAY: Madam Chair, I would only add that
many broadcasters across Canada experience real problems which often translates
into service deficiencies to their listening audiences. Having said that, if we
invest our rapidly diminishing supply of public broadcasting frequencies in
correcting such problems, then the loss of momentum and creativity and
competitive balance and diversity within our Canadian broadcasting system will
far outweigh the disadvantage that any given licensee may
8665 CHIN Radio in both its written intervention
and oral remarks last Monday has attempted to portray Infinity as amateurs who
have a weak business plan, serious deficiencies in our revenue projections, an
overdependence on South Asian programming and an overly optimistic rate card.
They figured the final arrow through the heart would come with the suggestion
that Radio India in the past had sold $7 spots in the Toronto
8666 Well, Madam Chair, Infinity's owners are long
time professional broadcasters. Over the past 20 years we have learned our
trade, honed our broadcasting skills, developed our managerial and technical
resources and broadened our financial base. Infinity and its highly skilled team
are ready and more than able to bring our ethnic broadcasting plan and that all
it represents to fruition.
8667 MR. RAY: CHIN over the years has accumulated
quite a collection of broadcasting tools within the Toronto market, including
CHIN-AM 1540, an FM repeater of 1540 at 101.3 MH which operates 24 hours a day,
one digital rebroadcaster for CHIN AM, CHIN FM 100.7, one digital broadcaster
for CHIN FM and CHIN AM-FM are also on satellite in North America and their
programs are rebroadcast via cable in Ottawa and other centres in
8668 Hence, in terms of allotment on Toronto radio
spectrum, they have not done too badly. Now they are back looking for 740 AM in
order to complete their ensemble within the Greater Toronto/Southern Ontario
8669 By comparison, for the past decade Infinity
through its Radio India program lived in the vagaries of a brokerage agreement
with a Niagara Falls station, then CKTB St. Catharines, and finally, CIAO before
having to leave the air last summer.
8670 Despite the pitfalls and uncertainties of
brokered broadcasting, Radio India rose from nothing to become one of the most
successful radio programs in Canadian broadcasting. Before the demise of our
agreement with CKTB, the average quarter hour ratings of Radio India outstripped
many mainstream stations' numbers and ran circles around CHIN AM's
8671 Last week, Madam Chair, on a lighter note, you
suggested that Mr. Lenny Lombardi may have a future as a consultant. Well, Madam
Chair, on an equally lighter note, Infinity wishes to advise Mr. Lombardi that
his future as a consultant will be short lived unless he vastly improves upon
his mathematical skills and curbs his imagination with respect to $7 per
8672 In reply to this notion, I would begin by
station that Radio India generated $430,000 in revenues in each of its 1996 and
1997 operating years.
8673 Had we been dealing in $7 spots, as Mr.
Lombardi would have you believe, Radio India would have had to sell
8674 MR. CUSSONS: Excuse me. Mr. Ray and Madam
Chairperson, we are now closing in on 13 minutes. If we could perhaps summarize
for the panel, please.
8675 MR. ROBSON: Madam Chair, if I'm not mistaken,
the previous applicant well exceeded that amount of time. We defer to your
wishes though, however.
8676 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Robson, there was a
specific reason for the extra five minutes. All we require is that you
reasonably summarize the rest of your presentation. If we start -- you
know, there are 13 applicants and there was a specific request for a specific
reason for the previous one, so I wouldn't want that to be the reference
8677 It is just a question of -- I hope
these two minutes don't count -- of following the rules to the extent
possible so that we don't get into a process which no longer has
8678 MR. RAY: I will just complete that paragraph
and then I will proceed to my concluding remarks, Madam Chair.
8679 Had we been dealing with a $7 spot, as Mr.
Lombardi would have you believe, Radio India would have had to sell 61,428 spots
each year. That is 1,181 spots per week, 169 spots per day, in a radio program
that aired only 31 hours per week during regulated hours and 30.5 hours during
8680 As such, all commercials were played during
the regulated hours of the daily programs as the hours after midnight were
commercial-free. Hence, according to our math, 169 spots in five hours is about
34 spots her hour, which represents 150 per cent sellout ratio.
8681 Madam Chair, I don't think there is time so I
will just go to the final point here.
8682 Despite the efforts of a few to convince you
otherwise, Infinity has put forth an ethnic broadcasting plan that squarely
meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's ethnic
8683 It is a plan that will provide new programming
diversity and greater listener choice. It will embrace and promote Canadian
talent and its ongoing development. It will introduce a new element of
competitive balance while narrowing the service disparity gap within Toronto's
ethnic broadcasting sector.
8684 It will extend service to the unserved and
badly underserved and it will optimize the utilization of 740 AM and its full
service potential. These are the very timbers upon which the Commission has
framed its goals and objectives for the Canadian broadcasting
8685 Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity is
ethnic radio with a difference and committed to making a difference. We
respectfully ask you to grant us that opportunity on 740 AM.
8686 We thank you for your courtesy and attention
during this long and difficult process and we wish you well in your
8687 Thank you, merci beaucoup, shukriya, all the
8688 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't want to start a
new precedent, but correct me if I'm wrong counsel, but this document will go on
the record. What you have not had time to pronounce will not be on the
transcript, but don't come with a big document this thick because it won't get
8689 Thank you.
8690 Mr. Rhéaume, do you have any correction to
8691 MR. RHÉAUME: No corrections.
8692 THE CHAIRPERSON: And do you have
8693 MR. RHÉAUME: Just a few
8694 I guess nobody is going to take me up on my
offer to discuss alternate frequencies on their allocated 10 or 12 minutes, so I
will ask you the same question.
8695 Have you looked at the extended AM band at
all? Have you had any discussions with your consulting engineers on feasibility,
cost studies, location sites, limitations and so on and so forth that you would
like to share with us?
8696 MR. RAY: No, we haven't. In fact, our business
plan and the application is predicated on the contours of 740
8697 MR. RHÉAUME: Final question. Implementation
within a year by condition of licence. Would you be happy with
8698 MR. RAY: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Could
you repeat that.
8699 MR. RHÉAUME: If the Commission were to grant
you a licence and impose a condition of licence that you have to be on air
within a year.
8700 MR. RAY: I accept that
8701 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8702 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
8703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray, Mrs. Ray
and your colleagues. We will see you in the audience, but this is your last
appearance before us, in this process anyway.
8704 MRS. RAY: Thank you.
8705 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8706 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8707 I now would like to invite Fairchild Radio
Toronto Limited to come forward and respond to all interventions,
8708 THE CHAIRPERSON: Proceed when you are
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8709 MR. WONG: Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, Fairchild Radio is pleased to have this opportunity to respond to a
number of issues raised by other applicants. We have already filed a written
reply and, accordingly, we will restrict our comments to those items requiring
8710 For the record, I am Calvin Wong, General
Manager of Fairchild Radio, and beside me is Tracey Pearce, our legal
8711 Before I turn to those matters, Fairchild
Radio would like to thank the many individuals and associations who filed
letters in support of our applications. These positive interventions reveal the
strong connection CHKT has with the many communities it serves and highlights
the important role it plays in the multicultural, multilingual Toronto of
8712 CHIN has suggested that the situation faced by
Fairchild Radio regarding its lease on Toronto Island and the impact of any
termination is no different from its own. We disagree with this
8713 The mere fact that the present term for both
leases ends on the same day is only part of the equation. CHIN cannot know the
exact circumstances faced by CHKT, nor can Fairchild fully appreciate those of
CHIN. There is no way that CHIN can definitively state that it faces identical
8714 Moreover, even if both CHIN and Fairchild are
required to vacate their Toronto Island transmitter sites, the repercussions for
each may be very different.
8715 Elder Engineering and Industry Canada have
both confirmed that there is no alternative transmitter site which could deliver
a viable signal on AM 1430 to the communities CHKT must reach in order to
survive. CHIN has provided no such evidence with respect to AM 1540. It may be
that a mainland transmitter site could deliver adequate coverage for CHIN at its
8716 Finally, CHIN has sought approval to establish
a third station at 740 AM. Thus, even if both Fairchild and CHIN are required to
vacate the Island and even if both are unable to continue utilizing their
existing system frequency from a new transmitter site, CHIN would still be left
with one, or possibly two, viable frequencies. In contrast, Fairchild believe
CHKT would go off the air unless it was awarded access to one of the frequencies
it now seeks.
8717 CHIN has also stated that they have had no
indication that their lease will not be renewed, that the issue is hypothetical
and that this is a people issue which they are sure can be resolved. We
8718 Obviously, it is in CHIN's interest to
minimize the difficulties Fairchild faces with its transmitter site lease as our
application is competitive with their own. We also believe CHIN can afford to be
less concerned about circumstances on the Island. They already have two
frequencies and, should they be awarded 740 AM, the effects of an eviction would
not have the devastating repercussions Fairchild expects. Indeed, CHIN suggested
that 740 AM would solve many of the technical difficulties they have faced on AM
8719 Furthermore, CHIN has not produced definitive
evidence that its lease or Fairchild's will be renewed. Thus their assurances
that they view this as a people issue does not provide Fairchild with much
8720 Following inquiries by Fairchild and CHIN,
City of Toronto staff have provided the Commission with written clarification
regarding the position of property management personnel. While we appreciate the
city's rapid response, the correspondence reflects the limitations of staff to
address the root of Fairchild's concern.
8721 In their letter, city personnel have confirmed
the procedure for negotiating a new lease and outlined the timeline for
initiating that process. However, they have not detailed much of what that
process entails since key steps lay beyond the scope of their authority. Let me
take a moment to set out this process in order to establish the basis for
Fairchild's belief that continuing on the Island will not be an
8722 We have been advised that in the newly
amalgamated city, municipal staff do not have the power to determine whether or
not a new lease will be negotiated. Councillors for the ward in which the
property is located must be advised that a party seeks a new lease and provided
with the opportunity to review the situation. These councillors may then pursue
a variety of options, from establishing certain terms for the new lease to
holding public consultations.
8723 City staff advises us that they cannot
commence negotiations until the relevant councillors have indicated they are
agreeable to a new lease. If these councillors advise city staff that a new
lease should not be offered, then no negotiation is pursued and no lease is
8724 While the full city council could subsequently
decide to offer a new lease, it would be highly unusual for it to reverse the
denial by the local politicians involved.
8725 Given this structure, city staff simply cannot
provide a definitive statement regarding the future prospect for a new lease. As
Mr. Pittiglio states in his letter, "I cannot make a firm commitment that these
leases will in fact be renewed".
8726 As we have indicated, it is this political
process involving the local councillors and the public which Fairchild believes
will result in the failure to secure a new lease. Needless to say, we cannot
provide the Commission with any definitive statement from the relevant
councillors in this regard.
8727 First, no formal public consultations have
been held to date, although the outcry regarding the proximity of the
transmitters to the school makes it clear where the Islanders
8728 Secondly, a municipal election will be held in
November. The provincial government has passed legislation reducing the number
of wards and council seats in Toronto. As a result, incumbents will be running
against each other in the remaining wards and certain councillors will lose
8729 We understand that following the election,
only one councillor rather than two will represent the Toronto Islands. In this
climate, councillors are unwilling to take a definitive position on the record,
particularly one with unfavourable consequences. Nevertheless, based on
conversations and events to date, Fairchild has concluded that a new lease will
not be offered.
8730 Finally, CHIN has suggested that Fairchild's
applications are premature. We disagree. We have no choice but to be here well
in advance of the lease termination. Given the findings of our engineer and
Industry Canada, the AM 1430 frequency will not allow us to serve our audience
unless we remain on the Island. In that case, another frequency becomes the only
option for preserving CHKT.
8731 It appears that all parties agree the
Commission is considering the last available frequencies for Toronto in this
hearing. As a result, Fairchild's participation was imperative. If we delayed
our applications until the city had unequivocally stated that no new lease would
be provided, there would be no frequency available to sustain
8732 In closing, we wish to confirm that CHKT has
revised its schedule to ensure full compliance with all its conditions of
licence. We apologize for the inadvertent scheduling of limited Mandarin
programming which resulted in our temporary failure to comply. A confirmation
letter has been filed with the Commission in this regard.
8733 Now I would ask Ms Pearce to add a few
8734 MS PEARCE; Madam Chair, Commissioners, the
filing of letters from the city may prompt intervention-like submissions by
other applicants. Fairchild does not object to the filing of the letters, but
would ask that it have the opportunity to file written reply comments simply
with respect to lease issues raised in reply by other applicants should they
arise and should Fairchild see fit.
8735 MR. WONG: We appreciate the Commission's
attention throughout this proceeding and would be pleased to answer any
questions that you may have.
8736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.
8737 MR. RHÉAUME: Ms Pearce, I'm not sure if I
understood the gist of your last comment. You would like additional time to file
written comments on what exactly?
8738 MS PEARCE: Well, my understanding is that the
letter from the City of Toronto addressed to CHIN and to -- sorry,
referring to both CHIN and to Fairchild has been provided to all other
applicants. My concern is that may prompt comments with respect to Fairchild's
applications which are more intervention-like in nature.
8739 I simply ask that Fairchild would have a
reasonable opportunity to respond to respond to just those comments on just
those issues should they arise.
8740 MR. RHÉAUME: My advice would be to take it
under advisement for now and come back when we wrap up, if that's
8741 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are suggesting an
additional few minutes before us should oral comments be made with regard to
8742 MR. PEARCE: Either oral or written
8743 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are going to be
8744 MS PEARCE: Yes.
8745 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will hear applicants in
8746 MS PEARCE: Yes.
8747 THE CHAIRPERSON: My understanding is your
request is primarily if this is addressed by other applicants, you request an
opportunity to reply to those comments about that material.
8748 MS PEARCE: That is correct.
8749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And it would not
foreclose, of course, asking for written reply, but we are expecting that you
will participate in this afternoon's oral hearing. We are always anxious to
terminate the proceeding as quickly as possible if it can accommodate
everybody's legitimate requests.
8751 MR. RHÉAUME: Merci. If I go to page 4 of your
comments just to explore that issue of the City of Toronto position, you
"Nevertheless, based on conversation and events to date, Fairchild has
concluded that a new lease will not be
8752 Is it fair to say that you have no hard
evidence of this other than discussions that could have been informal or
8753 MR. WONG: That is correct.
8754 MR. RHÉAUME: So it seems to me, and correct me
if I'm wrong, that right now we have the letters from the City of Toronto, the
one that was filed with your application which essentially states that the lease
will not be renewed as of right. Then we have the latest City of Toronto letter
basically saying there will be a process, but you are saying that the
bureaucrats or the staff of the city is not allowed to do this at this time. Is
that your position?
8755 MS PEARCE: To engage in the process? I'm
sorry, I just want to make sure I'm clear on your question.
8756 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm the one that's not sure if I
understood your position. Your position, as I understood it, was that the
February 9 letter by the City of Toronto where they say there will be a process,
did you say that the city staff cannot commit to that, that there will be a
process, because we agreed that they have not committed to renewing your lease.
8757 MS PEARCE: Our understanding of the process is
that the process is initiated by a request for a lease renewal or a new lease
and that the next step in that process would be notification of the relevant
councillors and then following whatever steps the relevant councillors would
take, then the negotiation of a new lease may or may not occur, depending on the
recommendation of the councillors.
8758 The process broadly defined in terms of
someone saying "I would like a new lease" and then the city staff notifying the
councillors, of course, could be initiated by city staff. We are simply saying
that there is what we have called a "political component" to this decision which
is outside of the scope of authority of staff.
8759 MR. RHÉAUME: Ms Pearce, I'm sure you will
appreciate that the Commission has no expertise in city politics whatsoever. The
only evidence which we have in front of us at this point is the correspondence
from the City of Toronto, which includes the letter you filed and the two
additional letters we have.
8760 We have nothing else to rely on and you are
saying that you have had informal discussions. Now it seems that your position
is that there is going to be some local politics involved and we believe that
that's how it works. I hope you can agree that this is by no means hard evidence
for the Commission to consider.
8761 MS PEARCE: Well, I think that Fairchild's
position is that it has come forward with the Commission and made its case,
explaining the circumstances in which it finds itself and that it has worked
very hard to address the Commission's concerns and certainly can appreciate some
frustration about particulars which Fairchild itself has
8762 MR. RHÉAUME: Your hard work, Mr. Wong, is not
in dispute here at all.
8763 If you are granted the licences you are
seeking, would you be on air within a year? Would you accept a condition of
licence in that respect?
8764 MR. WONG: Yes.
8765 MR. RHÉAUME: Now, I believe you have addressed
this, but I will ask the question again about the extended AM band. If you have
looked at the extended AM band with your engineers possible sites and suitable
land, costs involved relocating, coverage --
8766 MR. WONG: Yes. We did explore with our
consulting engineering, Cordonelda, on the expanded AM band. However, we find
that with this low power and the different contour, it cannot serve the existing
8767 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8768 MR. WONG: Thank you.
8769 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam
8770 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel, are you satisfied
that you have had proper opportunity to respond to CHIN's comments on this lease
8771 MS PEARCE: Yes.
8772 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very
8773 Mr. Secretary, please.
8774 We will hear one more reply and then take a
8775 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8776 I would now like to invite Arnold Auguste to
come forward and reply to all interventions.
8777 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back. Proceed when
you are ready.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8778 MR. AUGUSTE: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Good afternoon to you and to the Members of the Commission Panel and to the
staff, ladies and gentlemen.
8779 My name again is Arnold Auguste and with me
today are Daniel Caudeiron, Robert Wood, Mrs. June Veecock, Denise Jones and Bob
8780 In our reply this afternoon, we wish to
respond to interventions opposing our application from CKMW Radio Ltd., Durham
Radio Inc., and Milestone Communications. These interventions can be summarized
on the basis of allegations made in connection with our signal, Canadian Talent
Development initiatives, business plan and diversity.
8781 MR. TEMPLETON: Milestone and CKMW intervened
on technical grounds. Milestone argued that our application is premised on the
licensing of a frequency under circumstances not contemplated by the
Commission's call. This is not the case at all.
8782 In its call for applications, the Commission
in fact called for applications from parties:
"-- wishing to obtain an AM or FM broadcasting licence to be used jointly or
separately to serve Toronto, using frequencies 740 AM and 93.5 FM, or any other
frequency that may be suitable to serve this
8783 This is in fact what we did. We also suggested
a possible alternative scenario that could enable SHARE FM to meet its
objectives, that is provide a first class, high quality signal to the visible
minority communities throughout the GTA.
8784 Should the Commission decide in favour of the
single frequency option, we are totally prepared to accept 93.5 FM unexpanded,
based on the parameters outlined in our technical brief, without the 740 AM
signal to augment our coverage.
8785 Of course, Madam Chair, we urge the Commission
to share our goal of fully serving the visible minority communities of the GTA
with the best possible signal. We would undertake in such a scenario to
vigorously pursue technical solutions that will enable us to make this
8786 MS JONES: CKMW commented that some of our
funding would go to the development of another Canadian radio station and so
would not qualify as a legitimate Canadian Talent Development
8787 We believe that any concern in this regard is
outweighed by its public benefit, one that addresses a key objective of the
Broadcasting Act, that is:
"Programming that reflects the aboriginal cultures of Canada should be
provided within the Canadian broadcasting system as resources become available
8788 We believe that it is appropriate and
consistent with Canadian broadcast policy to qualify any funds directed to the
development of aboriginal broadcasting as a desirable public benefit, even if it
is not counted as CTD. We do, however, commit to spending the money in either
way and we will gladly accept a condition of licence to this effect. Madam
Chair, we have proposed this initiative because we are convinced this is the
right thing to do. We hope that you will share our viewpoint.
8789 CKMW also opposed our application on the
grounds that funds used to retain the services of Daniel Cauldeiron as our
Director of Canadian Talent Development do not qualify as a CTD
8790 As indicated in our response to questions from
the panel, if the Commission prefers not to qualify this expenditure as a
legitimate CTD expense, we will use the $50,000 to augment the $80,000 in seed
money already proposed for a total of $130,000 annually to help local
urban/dance music artists rent studio time for the development of new
8791 MR. WOOD: CKMW and Durham raised questions
about our business plan.
8792 Our plan is based on a well-financed proposal
that features $8 million in financing and exceedingly conservative revenue
projections of only $2.6 million in year one. In the circumstances, SHARE FM is
much better equipped than any other applicant to meet its business and public
interest objectives regardless of the frequency granted.
8793 MR. CAULDEIRON: CKMW alleged that SHARE FM
adds no diversity to the market. Further, the intervenor cited the high level of
duplication of titles and artists.
8794 SHARE FM conducted an analysis of the music
played on CIDC FM and CISS FM during the week of 20 September 1999 to 27
September 1999. As the Commission will note on its copy of the analysis, less
than 1.5 per cent of the music broadcast on each of these stations was featured
on the proposed playlist submitted by SHARE FM. In other words, at least 98.5
per cent of the music we proposed was not heard on existing stations during the
week that followed the filing of our application.
8795 Perhaps a description of our musical mix will
also help to clarify the diversity that our proposed station will contribute to
8796 Our sound is best compared to the blend of
music a club DJ presents to his or her audience. Any DJ worth his or her salt is
looking to play the newest, hottest urban/dance music while paying respect to
what has gone before. Each song is treated equally and played alongside each
other and while a DJ at times will play a group of songs with similar themes or
tempos, for the most part their skill is in the fusing of different sounds and
8797 A DJ will find just the right moment in a soca
track to cue into a raga number, then flip straight to a zouk riddim, then slide
into some Asian dub, switch on some Algerian rai, mix in a touch of Bhangra and
then return to this continent with an underground hip hop joint from some
8798 This would just be the beginning. We will also
mix in classic soul and R&B from artists like The Whispers, Montreal's Mac
Thornhill and Toronto's Eric Mercury and Carl Harvey. Then it's on to some
breakbeat, some trip hop and disco house before closing the circle with some
mereng-rap that leads into a rapso number and then we come right back to the
soca. Full circle. DJ magic.
8799 Complementing this fusion of sound,
knowledgeable announcers will identify these gems and enlighten the listener
with interesting background information about our Canadian artists. The end
result is a melodic, blended program of diverse sounds from diverse artists
playing to a diverse audience, the SHARE sound.
8800 MS VEECOCK: In addition to diversity of music,
SHARE FM also represents diversity of audience, diversity of news and spoken
word perspectives, diversity of staff, diversity of ownership and diversity of
8801 In recent decisions related to new service for
Victoria, Kelowna, B.C., and London, Ontario, the Commission indicated that the
factors relevant to the licensing of new radio stations include:
8802 "The manner in which applicants intend to
reflect their local community, including the community's diversity and
8803 Madam Chair and Commissioners on the panel,
Toronto's diversity lies not in the size of its Black community, but rather in
the combined size of all of its visible minority communities. Taken together,
these communities represent nearly 50 per cent of the
8804 For this reason, our approach is based on the
Canadian multiracial model of CITY-TV for it is only by reflecting the full
spectrum of visible minority communities that SHARE FM will truly reflect the
diversity and distinctiveness of the world's most multicultural
8805 MR. AUGUSTE: Madam Chair, why SHARE FM? Our
application is the only one proposing a station that will address the needs and
interests of both the Black and other visible minority communities in the GTA as
an integral part of the new mainstream reality of Toronto.
8806 In respect to the Order in Council, we are the
only major applicant that addresses both the multicultural and multiracial
nature of Canadian society and the special place of aboriginal people in our
society. Further, we represent a totally new voice in the Toronto broadcasting
8807 Madam Chair, as we sought to gain a licence
that would be inclusive of all the aspirations of this diverse city, we chose
not to use the obvious advantage afforded by SHARE Newspaper, with a readership
of some 140,000 weekly, as a tool to solicit public support. We focused on a new
vision and a solid application that could stand on its own merit. We believe
that we have succeeded in doing this.
8808 In over 25 years in the media industry as a
journalist in the city, I have considered my work not just as a business, but as
a responsibility. I wish to assure you that the SHARE team will continue to
demonstrate this public responsibility should SHARE FM be given the
8809 We have been responsible in print and we will
be responsible on the airwaves, implementing programs and operational policies
that respect and represent our diverse communities as we adhere to the CRTC
guidelines. I promise to promote respect and harmony.
8810 On behalf of our team, we encourage you to
share our vision and help make SHARE 93.5 FM a reality.
8811 Madam Chair, at this time I would like to
thank you and the panel and the staff for your patience over the last two weeks.
It has been a long two weeks. For me it's a new experience. It has been a very
interesting one. I have learned a lot. I thank you for the way you have dealt
with us. I think you have been very fair.
8812 I wish you all the best. You have a long road
ahead of you in your deliberations, but I hope that as you wrap up this weekend
you will get a nice good weekend's rest.
8813 All the best as you return to your homes.
Thank you very much on behalf of all of us.
8814 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Auguste, and
8815 Counsel has some questions, I
8816 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. Auguste, the same questions.
Implementation within a year by condition of licence. Would that be okay with
8817 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.
8818 MR. RHÉAUME: How about other frequencies for
the service. Have you explored this? The extended AM band. Have you explored
this with your engineers at all in terms of costs and feasibility and
transmitter site and land and so on and so forth?
8819 MR. WOOD: Counsel, we have not simply because
we don't think that the AM band is really appropriate for a music
8820 MR. RHÉAUME: Fair enough. Thank
8821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wood. I'm glad
that you haven't looked at the Island as a site.
8822 Thank you very much. We have enjoyed having
you with us.
8823 We will take a 12 minute break and be back
here at 20 to four. We intend to be back here at 20 to four because we still
have some ways to go before the end of the day.
8824 Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 1525 / Suspension à 1525
--- Upon resuming at 1540 / Reprise à 1540
8825 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8826 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8827 I would now like to invite Mr. Denham Jolly
and his team to respond to all interventions.
8828 Mr. Jolly.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8829 MR. JOLLY: Thank you, sir.
8830 Madam Chairperson and Members of the
Commission, I have here with me Mr. Carl Redhead, Kaan Yiggit, Sylvia Searles,
and in the back, the famous Farley Flect and Zanana Akaade. I will start my
8831 We are here to respond to three of the
interventions presented to the Commission earlier at this hearing. Our comments
will relate to issues raised by Durham Radio Inc. as well as CKMW Radio, which
chose to intervene against the Milestone application, once under the Rainbow
Radio banner as a competitive applicant and the second time as licence holder
for CIDC FM Orangeville through ownership of Dufferin
8832 There are recurring themes in the three
interventions which require a response. These include issues related to market
demand, the distinctiveness of the urban format, music diversity and market
impact of Milestone FM. In addition, we would like to clean up a couple of other
8834 MR. REDHEAD: First, the issue of market
8835 Our research found that there is a large
potential audience for the proposed Milestone station. The weekly audience reach
for the station will be over 550,000 persons in the Toronto area. These
projections were based on rigorous scientific research conducted by an
experienced media research firm, this according to the accepted radio research
practices which met quality standards. It is significant, in our view, that none
of the interventions provided any concrete evidence to refute the size or
characteristics of the potential audience for Milestone.
8836 The related second issue concerns the
distinctiveness of the urban format and diversity of the music Milestone will
provide. The argument is made that urban music is already available in Toronto
and that Milestone's urban format will merely provide music that is already
available in the market on CHR stations. Milestone takes exception to these
8837 All industry stakeholders, record companies,
agents, scholars and artists who appeared yesterday told you that they consider
urban music to be a distinct format. So do the major trade publications,
including Billboard and Radio & Records. There is a separate music category
for the Grammys and the Junos. The representative for CIRPA said and I
"There is (currently) no outlet...for the vibrant urban (music) community in
8838 A CHR format is not a substitute for an
authentic urban format.
8839 CIDC FM Orangeville, the only intervening
station against Milestone, is a CHR station with exclusive focus on hit music.
CICD's on-air station identifier is Hits 103.5. They also use the slogan
"Today's best hits" on their official letterhead, billboards and corporate
vehicles. A representative from CIDC on Monday confirmed this observation with
the following statement:
"(Probably) 60 per cent of the (music we play) is on the charts...the rest
are non-charted but eventually will make their
8840 In its intervention, CIDC FM presented
specific percentages regarding duplication of Milestone's music. Milestone
submits that the analysis provided by CIDC is misleading. This is because CIDC
FM compared a small sample of Milestone's artists to their full playlist and
this is not a valid comparison.
8841 In October and December 1999, we analyzed the
Toronto radio market and can therefore categorically state that Milestone will
add significant music diversity to the Toronto airwaves based on four key
indicators: One, uniqueness; two, playlist size; three, repeat factor, and,
four, number of Canadian artists.
8842 First, uniqueness. Over 60 per cent of the
artists on Milestone will be unique to the Toronto market, that is not played on
any of the three CHR stations during the broadcast week.
8843 Second, size of the playlist. Milestone will
provide one of the most diverse playlists on radio in a major market in Canada
in terms of artists featured and distinct musical selections presented.
Milestone will play about 400 distinct selections during the broadcast week, all
by urban artists.
8844 In contrast, a typical Toronto area CHR
station plays an average of only 235 distinct selections during the broadcast
week. Only a subset of these 235 selections are by urban
8845 Third, repeat factor. Milestone will have a
lower repeat factor due to a larger, more diverse playlist. For example, CISS FM
in Toronto repeated top hit songs an average of 51 times during the broadcast
8846 While high repetition builds familiarity in
sales, it limits diversity because top hits dominate the airwaves at the expense
of new up and coming artists. Milestone will provide a balance by providing a
significantly lower repeat factor, about a maximum of 35 per week. This will
mean more airtime for more artists.
8847 Fourth, the number of Canadian artists.
Milestone will provide an additional 30 hours of airtime in Toronto exclusively
for Canadian urban artists. In December 1999, three CHR stations combined
featured current songs by about 15 Canadian urban artists. Milestone on its own
will feature over three times this number.
8848 In addition, there are qualitative differences
between Milestone's music philosophy and that of CHR stations. We will be the
first with new urban artists on our playlist, long before they make it to the
charts or to CHR playlists. As the specialist in the area, we will represent
more depth and breadth of selection compared to the generalist approach of CHR
8849 Two final points on how Milestone will differ
from CHR stations.
8850 You have heard from the music industry
represent this week that "listening to CHR stations is like tuning into a
14-year olds birthday party". Fall 1999 BBM results confirm this observation. On
average, CHR stations derive about 58 per cent of their tuning from 12 to 24 age
group. Milestone's format focuses on older with 18 to 34 as the core and
especially those 25 to 34. Milestone will of course provide a significant amount
of spoken word programming not currently available in the market from CHR
8851 Against this background, Milestone submits
that the intervenors in general and specifically CIDC FM Orangeville overstate
the potential impact of Milestone's entry into the market. We believe it is
significant that two CHR stations, CISS FM Toronto and CING FM Burlington, have
chosen not to intervene against Milestone.
8852 Milestone also wishes to underline that our
application and our response to deficiency questions on November 4, 1999, have
been quite clear on the issue of potential market impact and the source of
revenues for the Milestone station. In this regard, the intervenors to Milestone
questioned the significance of WBLK's market presence and the ability of
Milestone to repatriate audience and advertising dollars.
8853 Some characterize WBLK as insignificant and
marginal in terms of market presence. These assessments are a matter of relative
perspective. WBLK has a market share of 1 per cent according to the Fall 1999
BBMs and a significant audience of 168,600 in the Toronto area. Repatriation of
this listening audience will account for about one quarter of total Milestone
8854 While Milestone's business plan does not rely
heavily on revenues from WBLK, we will eventually completely repatriate audience
and revenues flowing south of the border. Independent estimates, researched by
Air Time Sales, put the revenue base for WBLK from the Toronto in the order of
$1 million to $1.5 million per year.
8855 You heard one intervenor quote the WBLK sales
manager who lowballed the ad revenue from the Toronto market. Under the
circumstances, why would he say anything else? In the past three days we have
talked to just seven advertisers who have spent $249,000 annually with WBLK. We
have these supporting letters and we would be happy to put them on the file if
the Commission feels they are helpful.
8856 MR. JOLLY: We heard interventions regarding
the overall integrity of Milestone's business plan. Milestone is projecting
total advertising revenues of $3.9 million in year one based on a projected 3.4
per cent share of the market. These are achievable targets, verified by
independent sources. Our minority shareholder, Standard Radio, also considers
these projections to be realistic.
8857 A point raised about Milestone's relationship
with Standard Radio also requires a response. Intervenors suggested wrongly that
Milestone may be entering into a Local Management Agreement with Standard. We
understand that an LMA involves the integration of several operational
components of two radio stations, often involving the technical, sales,
promotion and general administrative activities.
8858 Milestone and Standard will enter into a sales
agreement, nothing more. Management, programming, promotions, news, recruitment
and hiring and other functions will remain separate and strictly under the
unanimous control of Milestone Radio.
8859 A final point raised by Rainbow involves the
technical aspects of the Milestone signal. The intervention suggested that
Milestone would not be able to provide service to the Black community because a
significant portion lives outside the three millivolt contour of the
8860 Our coverage map, detailing two contours, one
at three millivolt and the other at 500 microvolt, meets Industry Canada's
standards. It is also accepted in the industry that the larger contour
establishes the realistic marketing area of an FM station. In fact, it can also
be verified that listeners beyond the larger contour will also hear the
8861 Second, Milestone will provide diversity in
ownership and its programming goes well beyond Toronto's vibrant Black community
and is inclusive. The research shows that Milestone will attract a diverse
listenership from all communities, regardless of race, colour or creed,
especially those from the 18 to 34 demographic.
8862 The profile of our potential audience is 21
per cent African and Caribbean origins, 16 per cent South Asians and Southeast
Asians and 57 per cent European backgrounds. Look closely at our employment
equity plans and definitions. They ensure the recruitment and selection of a
8863 In addition, as detailed in our application,
Milestone will provide programming specifically designed to attract and involve
a multicultural, multiracial, in other words, an inclusive audience. All of this
is clearly documented in our application.
8864 Milestone will become the chat room for
intercultural understanding. Achieving this will bring the new voices of
under-represented groups to the airwaves and, as you will recall, we have
already detailed our commitment to ensuring balance in our
8865 Madam Chair, Commissioners, our application
fits the terms of your call and is also a natural extension of the Commission's
policies for the development of Canadian talent.
8866 Since the 1970s, the Commission has used
specific program formats and Canadian content regulations to the benefit of the
Canadian music industry. The careers of Anne Murray, Celine Dion, Shania Twain,
Sarah McLachlan, Bryan Adams and Alanis Morissette are but a few of the results
of those policies.
8867 Milestone wants to participate in building the
careers of the next generation of Canadian stars in the urban format. We have
the vision, the competence, the commitment and the resources.
8868 Finally, Madam Chair, I would like to take
this opportunity to thank the over 7,000 people who took the time to write
letters and petitions to us. Of course, we would like to thank your supporting
staff and the Commissioners Noël, Grauer, Williams, and of course you, Madam,
Commissioner Williams, Commissioner Pennefather and Commissioner Cardozo, and
8869 I would particularly like to thank you for the
way you have bent over backwards in conducting these hearings with equanimity
8870 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly. I
didn't know I had such agility.
8871 MR. JOLLY: You would be
8872 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and Mr.
8873 Counsel, please.
8874 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam
8875 Mr. Jolly, just one clarification at this time
about the LMAs. These regulations are relatively new. They have been in place
about three months. If the Commission were to consider, if you are licensed,
that there is a requirement for a condition of licence, I assume you wouldn't
have any problem in that regard. Is that fair?
8876 MR. JOLLY: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't hear the
8877 MR. RHÉAUME: You address the issue of LMAs in
your response. If the Commission were to consider that the arrangements you have
with Standard require a condition of licence, can I assume that you don't have a
difficulty with that.
8878 MR. JOLLY: No, no difficulty at all,
8879 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. Implementation within
one year by condition of licence.
8880 MR. JOLLY: Absolutely. Nine
8881 MR. RHÉAUME: Final question. Did you explore
other frequencies on the extended AM band?
8882 MR. JOLLY: No, counsel, we did
8883 MR. RHÉAUME: Fair enough. Thank
8884 MR. JOLLY: Thank you.
8885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and your
team. We have enjoyed seeing you again.
8886 Mr. Secretary, please.
8887 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8888 Next we will hear reply to all interventions
by Mr. Andy McNabb, please.
8889 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order,
8890 Mr. McNabb.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8891 MR. McNABB: Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC
colleagues. My name is Andy McNabb. I am replying to the written interventions
of CHIN and CIRPA as well as reaffirming some topics that were discussed in the
questions of last week.
8892 A few key points to remember what may be the
top considerations for awarding not just one, but two distinct licences to serve
the Christian market here in Toronto. As many other applicants are, I'm trying
to bring something to Toronto something that's very distinct, diverse, but also
unduplicated. I think that's a real key word here. We are bringing balance to a
Toronto radio spectrum that was missed out in the matters of faith for decades
upon decades upon decades.
8893 Considering that up to 74 per cent of
Torontonians identify themselves as Christians, it makes for the largest
unserved cultural group, characterized by two distinct audiences, one wanting
music and one wanting talk. The majority of the programming is local and most of
the local talk is balanced.
8894 We have got a very pervasive cultural
indicator: 20,000 Canadian churches, 4,500 within 50 miles of Toronto with 1,512
within the Toronto CMA. Again, that's more than all the bars, cultural halls,
nightclubs, dance clubs and taverns combined.
8895 We are looking to bring the greatest
incremental use of each signal by virtue of representation of our audiences both
in and outside the CMA, plus the airplay and promotion of the largest number of
new and unduplicated Canadian artists.
8896 The One Million Dollar Miracle in direct
contributions for two licences combined together, which makes for over $8
million in total Canadian talent benefits direct and indirect. We have a
$600,000 solution in direct contributions for any one licence. Over $3.3 million
in total Canadian talent benefits on AM, over $4 million on FM, an extensively
localized Christian talk radio with the message of hope, locally produced
Christian programming filled with lyrics of love and compassion, radio that
doesn't tear people down, but lifts people up with words of exhortation,
edification and spiritual comfort, totally unduplicated in the Toronto
8897 These two applications are designed as stand
alone applications unto their own right, viable unto themselves, but by
licensing both to us, you are providing a comprehensive service that generates a
dual benefit, meeting the needs of Christian radio listeners.
8898 In terms of clarifying the programming, AM 740
is predominantly talk and teaching with some music. To take you through the
programming day, lots of local surveillance and Christian music in the morning
and serving the interests of listeners of faith. Nine to noon, local and
national church and ministry programs to whom we sell time. The afternoons are
hours upon hours of open line talk shows, including Access 740 which embraces
our most intensively source multi-faith commitments, including Faith
8899 There's more surveillance programming
following into the afternoon drive and evenings which is complemented by local
church and national ministry programs. Our different afternoon drive and evening
programs feature more balance, open-line talk programming, including
Relationship Radio, Men of Integrity, Women of the Word, More than Overcomers,
Capital Connection, Heartbeat, Reach Out, and more, all locally produced in
8900 Again, just to give you a picture of the heart
behind this, in order to give you a benchmark of reference, it's the programs
with the type of sweetness and caring and compassion that we see on television
with David Mainse. Although he isn't scheduled to be on the radio with us, you
get the idea for where this is headed.
8901 It's Toronto personalities for the first time
on Toronto radio going several steps beyond that, providing the first ever
round-the-clock Toronto perspective on issues of faith for Toronto
8902 FM 93.5 is predominantly Christian music with
some Christian talk. Most significantly, one hour of Access 93.5, open line,
each afternoon with all the balance requirements, plus an hour or so of local
and national ministry programs on the weekdays.
8903 For the first time in Toronto, the music
brings a breadth of eight genres of Christian music to the forefront of the
Toronto radio spectrum seven days a week.
8904 In terms of the ownership issue just to
clarify, Andy McNabb is the owner. Salem is the banker. The loan agreement in
Schedule 7 shows that full veto and control rest with me. That's the way I had
wanted it and certainly wouldn't want it any other way.
8905 Only with my permission should Salem exercise
the option to become a minority shareholder according to any CRTC regulations
that exist today and in the future, and I hope they do exercise that option,
they have an opportunity I think of bringing a wonderful perspective to what we
are doing here in Toronto with a wonderful track record.
8906 As a result, we have no shareholders
agreement. One is not needed. Even so, the loan agreement states that I exercise
control at all times. As stated before, Salem is a board seat. It doesn't have
any veto rights and I would be very happy to accept a condition of licence to
8907 In terms of replies to interventions, CHIN
stated that we have a small potential market --
8908 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McNabb, it's a good thing
that you got to this point. This ten minutes is granted you to reply to
interventions, not as an additional opportunity to speak about the merits of
8909 I understand that there can be overlap, but I
would ask you to stick to interventions. You have already used some minutes and
this is the first that we hear about interventions.
8910 MR. McNABB: Fair enough. The CHIN intervention
referred to the small size of the potential market, so that can talk about
advertising and that. We can address listenership and addressing the public
interest. CIRPA addressed the need for development of expending genres of
8911 Just skipping through some points that are
touched on in greater depth here. We talk about the largest unserved listening
market with 74 per cent representation. That itself knocks down one
8912 The greatest incremental use of signal on AM
or FM has already been addressed.
8913 In terms of addressing the public interest on
page 4, not more of the same but something different. Whereas most applicants
offer a variation of talk or tempo or texture of music on Canadian or American
stations that can already be heard across Toronto, there isn't one Canadian or
American Christian station that can be received clearly across the whole of the
8914 In terms of being able to deliver on the
public interest, you have got to have talented people to do so. Don Millar's
track record in generating one of the highest rated Canadian radio stations with
a music format with his proven start-up experience on Canada's first English
language Christian radio speaks volumes. Lucy Hallford as our CFO brings a
wonderful financial background from Rogers, plus a host of other high profile
Director of Finance positions.
8915 In terms of the cultural mandate of this
licensing process, which is definitely in the public interest, applicants need
to address a cultural perspective, not merely that of demographics or
psychographic perspective. Christian culture extends far beyond demographics.
More than tempo and textured music, it transcends skin colour, linguistic or
cultural backgrounds. It's a way of life that shapes unduplicated levels of
altruism and benevolence, in shaping our attitudes as citizens.
8916 In terms of looking at the economic and social
benefits in the community, we are tithing. That's 10 per cent of our gross
inclusive of our cash expenditures for Canadian talent. This is directed to
registered Canadian and more specifically local Toronto charities. These totals
don't even count for 10 per cent of our contra. That's a direct investment back
into the social and economic fabric of our city.
8917 In terms of the public interest, secular talk
or music radio can't satisfy Christians. That's why they only listen two hours a
day as compared to the Toronto average of 22.3 hours a week. That's 34 per cent
below the CMA average. Proof positive that Christians want and need their own
stations to fill the void and boost their listening to Toronto stations with a
8918 Canada has Toronto as its hottest Christian
music market. Look at the packed stadiums and everything that you saw in the
video that we showed you last week. Take a look at the largest untapped pool of
Canadian talent in 20,000 churches.
8919 We are providing the greatest incremental
boost to developing new and unduplicated Canadian talent in Toronto and across
the country. Whereas others may propose 35 per cent Canadian content on less
culturally focused formats, they already have an established industry
distribution and promotional machine.
8920 With us at 15 per cent, which is 50 per cent
more than required levels, we are playing a greater level of Canadian music with
more and unduplicated Canadian artists relative to sales than any music based
competitors. That's an unduplicated level of commitment.
8921 You will notice on the chart on page 7 it was
inquired of us last week if we had quantified our levels of direct and indirect
benefits. You will see the dollar values quantified there. You will see for AM
$614,000 direct, $2.7 million indirect. FM, $614,000 direct, $3.4 million
indirect and in the two licence scenario, $1 million direct and over $7 million
indirect. That makes for $8 million. That is a heck of a chunk of change for an
emerging format in an emerging industry.
8922 Take a look at Toronto leading a Canadian
explosion of church activity, unparalleled by any other cultural group. Look at
Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship's three million person revival. Our own
board member, Pat Francis, who has Deeper Life Ministries here in Toronto,
growing to 2,500 members and a worldwide television and satellite audience in
just a handful of years.
8923 Yesterday Bud Williams spoke on his
multistation television program initiatives across Canada in addition to around
the world. Peter Youngren's new Toronto church, and the list
8924 Proven demand by Christian listeners, the only
Canadian audience willing to pay to get their radio. Remember how Neil Boron
spoke in the video, that people would call WDCX in Buffalo and over two thirds
of the 35,000 phone calls he took were Canadians. Before they had the 800 line,
they were paying long distance toll charges. That's hunger that's unduplicated
and unmatched by any competitor.
8925 We take a look at one and a half million
dollars in proven quantified demand by Canadian Christian advertisers
advertising in Buffalo. That's without the tax breaks being taken into account.
This is proven Canadian advertiser demand for an American service that has no
Toronto focus. It only reaches a fraction of the Toronto market with a clear
8926 Our proposal repatriates Canadian listeners
and Canadian dollars because each of the AM and FM signals are distinguished by
an extensive Toronto perspective on Toronto issues and events for Toronto
8927 Not only that, we have $374,000 in proven
advanced demand, advance commitments, by Canadian ministries and local churches
for either station. As you will see on page 10, it extrapolates our revenues to
upwards of $4 million, and that's without selling one
8928 Page 11, more proof of the viability of our
revenues. Either station's audience is most conservatively quantified by David
Oakes to generate a 2.4 share of hours tuned, and that's just from the people
who said they are most likely. That doesn't even take into the account the
people who said they are somewhat likely.
8929 With a share point worth close to $1.3 million
here in Toronto, that projects to over $3 million in revenue right there. Now,
if you add just a third of the people who said they would be somewhat likely to
tune each station, you get audience shares over three, with revenues over $4
8930 We are very conservatively projecting our
revenues that match up with quantifiable real life models here in Canada and the
United States, as we showed in our application.
8931 MR. CUSSONS: Mr. McNabb, I'm sorry. Could you
perhaps summarize your comments, particularly with respect to interventions.
Time is ticking.
8932 Thank you.
8933 MR. McNABB: Thank you. Yet another separate $1
million miracle. If we even underachieved our revenues by a million dollars in
any one of our three scenarios, it would still leave us with multiple six figure
and available cash flow right on hand, so we are being very prudent. We have
really buttressed our bank account to be ready for some fun in
8934 If Winnipeg can have two Christian stations,
if Timmins and Sudbury and Thunder Bay and Barrie can each have one, how much
more is the need to license two distinct and complementary talk and music
stations right here in Toronto to serve the most hottest and vibrant largest
unserved cultural market in this country.
8935 It's definitely in the public interest to
provide something that's as diverse and unduplicated as this, serving the
largest unserved cultural group characterized by two distinct music and talk
8936 Extensively localized Christian talk radio
with a message of hope, Christian music filled with lyrics of love, radio that
does not tear people down but it lifts people up with words of exhortation,
edification and spiritual comfort.
8937 I am closing. I want to say thanks on behalf
of the applicants. We have many opportunities to talk in the halls. I don't want
to throw flowers at you or give you a fat head, but all the applicants, and I
speak for everybody here, would agree with me that you have made us all very
welcome. You have gone out of your way. We sincerely thank you for it because I
know each and every one of us have a lot riding on this. It's really nice when
you are hospitable and make us feel comfortable.
8938 Thank you very much.
8939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. I love
8940 MR. RHÉAUME: Mr. McNabb, would
8941 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr. McNabb. You are
not going to escape counsel. I lost my head. Please do stay. Counsel has
8942 MR. RHÉAUME: I'm sure you can spare a minute.
Have you looked at the AM band, the extended AM band?
8943 MR. McNABB: No, I did not because the largest
unserved market deserves the largest signal available.
8944 MR. RHÉAUME: How long would it take you to be
on air with both services and would you accept a condition of
8945 MR. McNABB: Based on the proven experience of
Don Millar in start-ups and the fact that we can almost plug in and play with AM
740 already having the transmitter established, we can be on the air within four
months with AM 740 and within six months with FM 93.5
8946 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
8947 Thank you, Madam Chairperson
8948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb. Thank
8949 Mr. Secretary, please.
8950 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8951 I now invite 1158556 Ontario Limited to
respond to all interventions, please, la Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto
8952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Bear with us.
8953 Si vous attendez quelques minutes, nous
recherchons les documents de traduction.
8954 Bonjour. Ça va maintenant.
8955 M. MARTEL: Madame la Présidente, Mesdames et
Messieurs les Commissaires. Je voudrais conclure ma présentation, bien que nous
n'avons eu aucune intervention contre notre projet, en soulignant brièvement
quelques éléments qui militent en faveur d'une décision favorable pour la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.
8956 Premièrement, la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et
8957 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Si je peux vous interrompre un
instant. Oui, vous avez des interventions parce que toutes les demandes
concurrentes ce sont des interventions.
8958 Alors c'est pour ça que vous avez le droit de
réplique. Quand la procédure est concurrentielle, les concurrents sont vos
intervenants aussi bien que les requérants.
8959 M. MARTEL: Merci.
8960 Premièrement, la Loi de la radiodiffusion et
votre nouvelle politique sur la radio communautaire précise la place indéniable
de la radio communautaire dans le système de radiodiffusion et l'équité des deux
langues officielles du Canada.
8961 Deuxièmement, tous les autres projets devant
vous sont de langue anglaise en majorité ou dans une troisième langue qui est
souvent déjà desservie par des radios de campus ou des services
8962 Troisièmement, en étudiant la liste des
services de radiodiffusion à caractère ethnique publiée par le CRTC en 1998 dans
l'avis 98-135, nous ne pouvons que constater que les minorités de langues
ethniques diverses sont plus que bien desservies si on les compare aux
Franco-Ontariennes et Franco-Ontariens.
8963 Quatrièmement, le projet que propose la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto est sans conteste celui qui produira le
plus de contenu canadien tout en attirant la participation de plus de 50 groupes
ethniques différents, y compris les gais et lesbiennes francophones et les
personnes de tous les âges.
8964 Cinquièmement, aucun des groupes en votre
présence n'est aussi mal desservi et ne fait face à autant d'assimilations que
les Franco-Torontoises et les Franco-Torontois.
8965 Sixièmement, parce que la communauté
francophone de Toronto est une communauté d'accueil pour des milliers de
nouveaux arrivants à Toronto, seul le projet de la Coop Radio Toronto permettra
à ces personnes de connaître les services francophones de la métropole et
améliorer ainsi leurs chances de bien s'intégrer à leur pays d'accueil et mettre
leurs connaissances et leurs habilités au service des Canadiens.
8966 Septièmement, c'est avec une programmation
francophone qui excède de plus de 10 pour cent le minimum de contenu canadien
requis par le CRTC et de 25 pour cent le contenu musical autre que francophone
que le projet de la Coop radiophonique de Toronto deviendra une fenêtre pour la
communauté Franco-Canadienne grâce à son affiliation aux réseaux francophones
8967 Pour conclure, par sa création de près de 10
nouveaux emplois, par son service de promotion des nouveaux talents
francophones, par les nombreux appuis d'organismes locaux, provinciaux,
nationaux et ses partenaires du domaine des médias, le projet de la Coopérative
radiophonique de Toronto permettra la meilleure utilisation des ondes publiques
canadiennes pour l'avancement des Canadiens et des Canadiennes.
8969 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup pour votre
présentation. Je crois que le Conseiller juridique a quelques questions pour
8970 Me RHÉAUME: Seulement deux
questions, Monsieur Martel.
8971 M. MARTEL: Oui.
8972 Me RHÉAUME: Est-ce que vous avez
considéré la bande AM élargie? Est-ce que vous avez eu des discussions avec vos
ingénieurs, techniciens ou autres?
8973 M. MARTEL: Oui. On a exploré en 1994 cette
possibilité-là, sauf que Patrimoine canadien qui est le principal pourvoyeur de
fonds pour les immobilisations nous a indiqué à ce moment-là que d'avoir un
émetteur AM et un terrain dans la région de Toronto dépasserait largement les
capacités de payer du programme d'immobilisations des radios communautaires du
Canada pour les langues officielles.
8974 Me RHÉAUME: Alors dans votre cas
particulier, c'était fonction de coûts, si je comprends bien. Est-ce que selon
votre mémoire il y avait des fréquences disponibles à ce moment-là au niveau de
vos études, et est-ce qu'il y avait des possibilités si vous aviez eu les
8975 M. MARTEL: On n'a pas exploré plus à fond les
fréquences parce que, comme je vous l'expliquais, les ressources ne nous étaient
pas disponibles et aussi c'était notre compréhension que la portion touchant les
radios communautaires étaient, dans la Loi de la radiodiffusion, sous la bande
FM et non sous la bande AM.
8976 Me RHÉAUME: Merci.
8977 Maintenant si on vous accorde la licence que
vous demandez, vous pouvez être en ondes à compter de quand?
8978 M. MARTEL: Le plus rapidement possible, mais
on espérerait être en ondes pour Noël de cette année.
8979 Me RHÉAUME: Alors à l'intérieur
d'une année par condition de licence, ça ne vous pose pas de
8980 M. MARTEL: Oui, bien à l'intérieur d'une
8981 Me RHÉAUME: Merci. Merci, Madame la
8982 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur Martel. C'est
un plaisir de vous revoir.
8983 M. MARTEL: Merci de votre attention et
j'espère que vous avez eu du bon temps à Toronto.
8984 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary,
8985 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
8986 I would now like to invite CKMW Radio Limited
to come forward and respond to all interventions. He will also be a few minutes
summarizing what he considers to be the benefits of his application, which is a
privilege we gave all of our applications last week. Somehow Mr. Evanov was
inadvertently overlooked, so he is going to also include that in his
8987 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Evanov. I
hate to disappoint Mr. McNabb, but apparently I was guilty of not offering Mr.
Evanov and CKMW the usual five minutes to summarize their application in part
one, so we will consider this first five minutes the completion of part one and
then we will hear you in reply.
8988 I'm sorry, Mr. McNabb, I'm not perfect
8989 Go ahead.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
8990 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chairperson, we have more or
less combined it. It sort of flows. I think if it would be possible to begin
with our reply to the intervention and then lead into --
8991 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean if you can deliver
this document, you will be satisfied. Is that it?
8992 MR. EVANOV: Yes.
8993 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
8994 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chair, Commissioners, this
is our reply to the interventions against Radio Rainbow.
8995 Some concerns were offered by CIRPA and others
about how Rainbow Radio might not be adding to diversity in the marketplace. We
submit that it would indeed offer diversity in the following
8996 Diversity in format. Rainbow Radio is a full
service station with a balance of music and spoken word, a true broadcast
format, one that goes from the smaller gay community to the broad or larger
8997 Diversity in providing a service to a large
cultural group on a signal that was custom made for them in downtown
8998 Diversity in the addition of another news
voice. In some music areas, show tunes, popular standards you can't hear
elsewhere. In ownership structure, an independent broadcaster. In employment and
scholarship opportunities in a new area of Canadian
8999 In Canadian Talent Development initiatives
that are unique and innovative such as the expansion of Canadian Music Week to
reflect the gay perspective. Diversity in bringing the very large business
sector of the gay community into the broadcasting system with advertising
9000 A second matter to deal with is Milestone's
contention that we and other applicants for 93.5 may have understated the signal
pattern, strength and coverage.
9001 MS LAURIGNANO: When we looked at the 93.5
frequency, we were guided by two factors: The Commission's definition that an FM
market is the area that falls within the three millivolt contour and that the
service would best meet the Commission's licensing criteria.
9002 Milestone also indicated that the CBC had
conducted a field test to study the 93.5 frequency whereby it was determined
that the 93.5 would put a strong signal as far west as to encompass
9003 We subsequently spoke with Martin Marcotte,
Senior Manager of Distribution Services for CBC Toronto, who said no such
document is available. He confirmed that the CBC did a test for 93.5 at the same
time it was doing tests for 99.1 with the results being as
9004 To the east, the signal was discernible as far
as Oshawa, to the north from well south of Richmond Hill, to the west, in
Oakville and surrounding area. Mr. Marcotte said, and I quote
"There was no discernible signal to the west due to interference form other
signals coming into the
9005 In the absence of Milestone providing a copy
of this study, we rely on Mr. Marcotte's word. It is important to note that the
test was conducted from the CN Tower and not the Bank of Montreal Building where
most of us, including Milestone, have submitted the transmitter will be
9006 MR. EVANOV: It is our position that we are
correct in our reading of the signal strength and that Milestone has overstated
the strength of the 93.5 signal. In fact, 93.5 can't serve Milestone's target
market when, according to Stats Canada and Compusearch, they would only be heard
by 29 per cent of potential listeners.
9007 Our engineers have told us that only the three
millivolt in an urban city is reliable and that the .5 would be very
9008 We have attached for your reference a copy of
a map prepared by Compusearch outlining where the visible minority Black
population resides in relation to the signal of 93.5. This map was also supplied
to the applicants in our written interventions.
9009 In conclusion, Rainbow Radio does offer
diversity. Rainbow Radio will not impact existing broadcasters because it will
not duplicate other formats. Rainbow Radio has recognized reality. It has not
over-estimated its reach and revenue projections.
9010 Madam Chairman, in our presentation last
Tuesday, you asked us about the impact on CIDC if you licensed an applicant for
the 93.5 frequency. In our handout this afternoon, we have given you a
confidential summary of those different impacts.
9011 We said last week that the impact on CIDC in
licensing one of our competitors would be worse, much worse, if CIDC was not
allowed to move its transmitter. We can provide more explanation on this, either
later today or tomorrow morning, when our power transmitter application is
9012 MS LAURIGNANO: When the CBC said it was going
to abandon 740 and FM 93.5, we considered what formats would be best suited for
these frequencies, but first we had to look at the coverage
9013 When we superimposed the 93.5 contour map on
the City of Toronto, knowing who lives there, it became instantly clear that the
only substantial cultural group not represented on the dial was the gay
9014 MR. EVANOV: We had known for a long time
through our staff and friends that the gay and gay-friendly community needed and
wanted a voice. We were looking for a way to bring such a service to Toronto.
The purchase of an existing radio station or even applying to use 99.1 for this
format back in 1997 would have been overkill because, as we have shown you, much
of the gay community congregates in the downtown Toronto area.
9015 I have a capable and professional team to
undertake this project and our existing stations would benefit from the
synergies. But, I needed to know if there was a compelling case for such a
service and I wanted to be 100 per cent sure that it would be a viable
9016 MS LAURIGNANO: Here's how we evaluated this
opportunity. We commissioned an independent study of advertising agencies. Our
sales staff canvassed local businesses in the gay village and the other two
developing gay areas. We analyzed the gay print media and resources to see who
had advertising budgets. We canvassed our own clients currently with CIAO and
CIDC to determine if these advertisers had ever or would consider reaching the
gay market through the medium of radio.
9017 The results were very encouraging. Everywhere
we went and every door we knocked on, we found enthusiastic support for the
service. When we looked at the print media and surveyed the categories and
number of advertisers, we quickly summarized that 80 to 90 per cent were not
radio users. The Pink Pages alone, which lists 1,000 business and services,
offered us when we looked at a potential of 560 advertisers who would qualify as
potential radio advertisers because the size of their business or their service
was very unique.
9018 This is a bigger universe than we are used to.
In comparison, CIDC FM averages just about 340 clients a year. Wow! When
everything was in, there was no doubt in our mind that this service was
9019 MR. EVANOV: How best could this community be
served was a question we asked. We launched into a major market study that
included a large gay-identified and general population study as well as focus
9020 As a result of our independent market
research, our own research and our personal experience, we put our business plan
and program schedule together. It is a realistic plan with a realistic objective
in sales and in audience.
9021 MS LAURIGNANO: When we conducted our focus
group studies at Pollara Research, I wanted to see for myself and not rely
totally on the statistical reports that would follow. I was an unseen observer
in the focus group sessions.
9022 What I saw was the face of Toronto, young and
old, Asian and European, black and white and men and women, a retired teacher, a
self-employed woman, a student, a truck driver. In other words, as I said, the
real face of Toronto. They were all as different could be, but what united them,
what bound them together was far stronger than any of their
9023 These are just a few of the things I took from
these sessions. They wanted to be understood as they were, not as someone wants
them to be. The younger members of the community want dialogue with their peers.
Elders who are rich in knowledge wished that they could share with
9024 While some had found long and nurturing
relationships, most were alone, some even estranged from their families because
of who they were or how they were defined. Some had emerged from these
experiences as strong, compassionate, loving individuals despite untold hardship
9025 Some felt it was easier to stay hidden or to
stay invisible because that would minimize the potential for backlash. Above
all, this community has a hunger and thirst for its own news, its own talk
shows, its own needs which need to be reflected, its own opportunities to
celebrate its culture and to share that culture with everyone
9026 Commissioners, we know that radio is the
perfect medium to respond to these real and serious societal
9027 This experience furthered my conviction that
for us it was no longer a question of "should" but a question of "must". We knew
it was a good business plan. We knew that the local business community existed.
We knew that the community was not represented on our radio dial. We knew that
we were experienced, dedicated and successful independent broadcasters who would
make the best use of this frequency because it was a perfect fit for this
9028 We will stay devoted to Rainbow Radio because
we are not affected by bottom line returns that an outside investor might
demand. We don't have any shareholder shotgun clauses in our financing
arrangements or shareholder agreements.
9029 MR. EVANOV: Commissioners have on two
occasions in this hearing asked whether the gay community understood that
Rainbow Radio could at any time switch its format.
9030 Madam Chairperson, I want my company to serve
the gay community. Today we are offering a voluntary condition of licence to
serve this cultural community in the format we have proposed.
9031 MS LAURIGNANO; Madam Chair, we want this
licence because we need this licence in order to serve this community which we
know so well. We will serve it responsibly, equitably, honourably and, above
all, with the pride it deserves.
9032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Evanov, on page 3 when
you discuss the coverage of 93.5, you make a point of saying that to the west,
in Oakville, Mr. Marcotte said that there was no discernible signal due to
interference from other signals coming into the area.
9033 I remain puzzled following the discussion we
had and that you repeat here by the devastating effect on CIDC's revenues that
would flow from us licensing 93.5 on a format that you consider competitive to
9034 If I look at the map, the current coverage map
of CIDC, and I take your comments that there would be no discernible signal in
Oakville and west, just what harm would there be to CIDC's revenues of the
magnitude that you suggest from us licensing 93.5 on a competitive
9035 MR. EVANOV: I will begin and I think Carmela
will join me.
9036 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the moment I would like
you to address without the application we will hear tomorrow, but with your
9037 MR. EVANOV: Okay. With the current coverage,
there's two areas of concern. One is the signal from CIDC. The highway from
Toronto to Orangeville is not the same highway as from Orangeville to Toronto.
The CIDC signal, although the three millivolt will stop in Brampton, okay, a
little bit beyond that the .5 does receive listenership in the very northern
part of Toronto or just north of where the border is between Toronto and the
balance of the CMA.
9038 We are not talking Oakville here. We are
talking if you take the northwest corner of Toronto, so there is definitely
audience and there will be duplication in that area because this signal will
cover just around the city limits, so there will be a mutual area there where
definitely there will be some overlap with the signals, particularly if they are
in a competitive format.
9039 Our other concern was that both applicants
have stated that even though they have the -- even though they would
maybe take the 93.5 as it is, they are looking to extend that signal, if not in
this hearing then at a subsequent process. If they can do some technical
improvements, then that signal will extend much further coming into our
9040 The third area really, the key area, is also
that there is really one advertising budget for the Toronto CMA. This is what
the ad agencies put forth. If these stations receive the shares in Toronto, the
BBM share that they are projecting, they will have sufficient audience that if
it comes down to a one, two, three station buy that they will dominate if the
two other CHR stations, whether it would be CISS or whether it would be CING,
take the top two buys in that campaign, then with the shares projected here at
this hearing, the Milestone group and the SHARE group will take the third buy,
leaving no buy left for CIDC.
9041 In other words, they will take most of the
9042 MS LAURIGNANO: I would just like to add one
thing to Mr. Evanov's comments, that being that as Milestone just finished
saying a little while ago, they also have a sales agreement with Standard. What
that will mean is they will be able to combine some sort of sales combo with
some of the stations. That's what I understand. When you are working in a sales
arrangement, that's what that means in this industry.
9043 There is that competitive -- I'm not
going to call it imbalance, but the possibility of imbalance there that concerns
9044 The other thing is that the whole Toronto CMA,
which includes the City of Toronto and includes Orangeville, in a lot of cases
privatizing is what's called a central buy, that is that there is a budget for
the whole area and we all have to compete for that.
9045 This is compounded further for us because it
would be in a similar demographic, in a similar music format. That means that
even the niche advertisers, the clubs, those who are looking for those
particular types of listeners would also impact on us.
9046 It's not necessarily a geographical thing.
Somebody who wants to go to a club will travel from one place to the other, so
it affects the marketing area more which goes beyond the signal
9047 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov and
9048 Counsel, please.
9049 MR. RHÉAUME: Merci.
9050 Mr. Evanov, did you explore any other
technical options like the extended AM band for this kind of
9051 MS LAURIGNANO: No, we have not. As we stated,
we worked with the parameters and guidelines for the 93 and we believe that
that's a perfect fit for this particular market, that it would serve the needs
very well, so we have not.
9052 MR. RHÉAUME: Would this service work on the AM
band according to you?
9053 MS LAURIGNANO: For sure. It possibly could
work very well, but we don't know of a frequency that could be maximized to the
degree that this 93 would because of its limited range and because of where the
9054 MR. RHÉAUME: Would you be on air within a year
if you got the licence?
9055 MR. EVANOV: Yes, we would.
9056 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
9057 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
9058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
9059 Thank you, Mr. Evanov and your colleagues. We
will see each other again tomorrow, of course.
9060 MS LAURIGNANO: We will thank you tomorrow and
bring you flowers.
9061 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9062 Mr. Secretary, please.
9063 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we will now
hear the reply of Durham Radio Incorporated to all interventions.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
9064 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back.
9065 MR. KIRK: Good afternoon, Madam Chairman.
9066 Sorry I wasn't able to be here on Monday. As
you know, there was a small cable merger but my colleague, Mr. Kassay, I think
ably gave you our intervention on the other applications.
9067 We are delighted to be back and give you our
final comments. We will be responding to interventions against our application
by CKMW Radio and CIRPA.
9068 Our application to serve Toronto with a
Country FM addresses the largest and most popular format unavailable in the
market currently. It establishes the quantifiable proven audience which is
available for the format. It's the largest unserved in Toronto.
9069 It ensures diversity of format and voices in
the market. It commits to large direct Canadian Talent Development initiatives
to promote and develop Canadian country music. It is financially sound and based
on conservative financial assumptions.
9070 I will now turn it over to Steve Kassay who
will address the specific issues on how we are to serve Toronto and the benefits
questioned in the interventions.
9071 MR. KASSAY: Thank you, Doug. Good
9072 In the response to CKMW some specific issues
raised in interventions, in theirs:
"-- the only enhancement proposed for access to the Toronto markets is
satellite studio to be used as a feed point for features, news reports and other
recorded material back into the regular CJKX FM program
"There were no programming or service enhancements for Toronto with this
application, one of the stated CRTC requirements for use of this frequency in
9074 How will we serve Toronto? Well, that signal
coverage, to extend and introduce to the market an already successful format in
Durham Region and Scarborough, to serve the balance of Toronto, Mississauga and
Brampton. We will establish a Toronto office and studio. We will add news and
programming with a downtown flavour to broaden the focus of CJKX FM. This is
where we propose to relocate our artist/liaison representative, for instance.
You met Adrienne last week. She was part of our presentation panel. She needs to
be close to the action.
9075 We need to be as accessible as possible as
well in order to effectively promote good relations with the artists, our
audience and as well our relationship with the industry players who are, for the
most part, in Toronto.
9076 It is also from where we will coordinate our
Toronto component of our community events program, a 12 month program, which
gives non-profit and community groups free air time through onsite station
visits right at their events.
9077 We will also establish a Toronto presence and
would initially add five additional programming and sales personnel to the team.
Of course, there's an additional commitment to establish a Toronto presence,
whether awarded 93.5 or 106.3 FM frequencies.
9078 So to recap, how will we serve Toronto in
addition to the points just mentioned? Perhaps it's best described by some of
our success stories in Durham where we succeed now.
9079 The annual Million Penny Toy Drive. We donate
over $10,000 to charities and help centres each year, thanks to the graciousness
of our listenership.
9080 The Police Canine Support Fund, we are the
media player. As a matter of fact, we are one of the only players. We have
enabled the Durham Regional Police to purchase three new dogs and training of
officer and partner, $12,000 a piece, over the last three years.
9081 And our KX 96 talent search which we explained
last week where every year two talented individuals win the recording,
production and pressing of a CD which is ready for distribution and a product
which we air on KX 96, as it's known now.
9082 Benefits of these points. Additional Canadian
Talent Development commitments. Initially $100,000 per year to reinvigorate the
substantial disenfranchised country audience of over 360,000 in
9083 In response to CIRPA, to quote their
"CIRPA is of the view that formats being applied for should fully serve their
targeted audience and not be a variant on current available
9084 With the recommendation a couple of paragraphs
above that it should be Black urban in the format, we take that to mean the
Black urban satisfies that criteria and our format does not. If you will have a
look at the handout which is inserted at the back of the presentation folder we
just gave you, this is a BDS breakdown.
9085 Broadcast Data Systems compiles and lists
airplay for the purposes of making charts, analysis on music and titles. In
response directly to this intervention and our assumptions on it, these are the
top five songs on the WBLK playlist from last week.
9086 For instance, the first line, Destiny's Child,
Say My Name, 26 spins during the broadcast week on WBLK. Accordingly, you will
follow the columns: 13 times on CIDC, 34 times on CING, 40 times on CISS. That's
the example. If you look below, these are the top five country songs across
9087 Lonestar and Smile hit 476 spins. We logged
ten. I cannot provide any playlisting numbers for Toronto radio because there is
no Toronto radio.
9088 As well, the benefits would be to introduce
country music to Canada's largest market. There is none right now. That's our
specific response to the words from CIRPA.
9089 We would also provide a vibrant promotional
and development vehicle for Canada's world class country music artists and
producers. We would reinvigorate the country lifestyle. It's the fun of the
format, it's the Beaches Festival, the family. The family can enjoy that whole
9090 It's the number of major concert events that
have taken a big hit over the last year. They don't happen any more. We will be
a force in re-establishing the momentum of this country music industry. With
airplay comes the concerts and appearances. With the events and appearances
comes attention. With attention comes opportunity, opportunity for country to be
re-established and a strong foothold in this powerful market.
9091 This whole process will not happen without
expanded Toronto coverage for CJKX FM. It is the engine which will power the
9092 MR. KIRK: Thanks, Steve. I think we have
articulated through our application and our responses to the interventions what
we are. I just want to conclude with a few of the things we are
9093 Durham Radio and CJKX FM are not controlled,
influenced or associated with any other broadcasting group in the market. We are
not going to damage any Toronto broadcasters by competing in their format. We
will not duplicate music played by existing Toronto radio stations. We will not
be relying on repatriation of dubious out of market revenues or audiences to
fulfil our business plan and we are not suggesting unsound or aggressive
technical assumptions or proposals to achieve our coverage or our projected
9094 In conclusion, we think Durham Radio's
application to extend the coverage of CJKX FM to Toronto provides an outstanding
list of positives without any material negative consequences for the Toronto
market. It is the only application before you which provides true diversity of
format, independent voice and ownership in the Toronto market.
9095 We trust the Commission will agree with our
conclusion. We have with great energy and excitement looked forward to bringing
country music back to Canada's largest city, Toronto.
9096 Thank you.
9097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, and your
9098 Counsel, please.
9099 MR. RHÉAUME: I think you have heard these
questions. Would an expansion on the AM band be feasible at all and have you
looked at it?
9100 MR. KIRK: I think we spoke about this at
length last week. With regard to CJKX, I think we stated on the record last week
that we had not looked at AM coverage simply because it was a music format and
the FM band best suited the extension of CJKX in the country
9101 However, I have done a bit more examination of
the AM band and I think last week mentioned to you two frequencies that had been
explored and applied for in this market, 1610 and 1670. On further consultation
with the consulting engineer, there is even a possibility now us using three
spots on the extended AM band.
9102 Now, we haven't done the briefs or anything
like that, but it's possible to use 1610. There is a 40 kilohertz separation
requirement on the AM band, so conceivably 1610, 1650 and 1690 could be used in
the Toronto market for service on the extended AM band.
9103 One of the other applicants mentioned that
they had looked at 10 kilowatts. These extended AM band frequencies bilaterally
with the U.S. were agreed upon to be 10 kilowatts on the directional services,
with a one kilowatt limitation at the border in night-time
9104 You can use a directional array, a fairly
simple directional array, a two tower array, which is not too complicated or
expensive to build to use up to five kilowatts in a directional pattern in the
night-time hours which would give reasonably good night- time service, certainly
to the central Toronto area in our view.
9105 Now, we have not proposed that or explored it
because of the reasons we articulated to you last week, but we think there is a
substantial untapped or unused resource on the extended AM band to provide
service in the Toronto market.
9106 Although we have characterized I think with
good reason as the two FM frequencies, 93.5 and 106.3 which we have applied for
and given you that alternative, as the very, very, very last FMs in the market.
The very, very last is not applicable to the AM band. There's certainly
substantial room left to provide additional radio services, perhaps more attuned
to the AM band in terms of spoken word content on those additional
9107 That would be my comment. Sorry if I was
9108 MR. RHÉAUME: No, no problem. That's quite
9109 Would you be on air within a year on the two
FM frequencies you applied for?
9110 MR. KIRK: Yes. CJKX is already in operation,
so adding on 93.5 or 106.3 is not that complicated a deal. I would expect we
could be on the air in three to six months maximum if awarded either technical
9111 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
9112 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
9113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, and your
9114 Mr. Secretary, please.
9115 MR. CUSSONS: We would now invite Mr. Gary
Farmer to come forward and reply to all interventions.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
9116 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Farmer,
and your team. Proceed when you are ready.
9117 MR. FARMER: Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Chair
9118 To my immediate left is Alanis King. She is
our training and volunteer coordinator. To my right is Meredith Ramsey. She is a
Partnership Development Officer. To my far left is Nicole Robertson. She is our
Media and Public Relations Director.
9119 On the far left in the back is our New Media
Development, Christopher Spence. Mark MacLeod next to him, the Director of
Operations and our Engineer, John Matthews, and of course, from our Board of
Directors, Sherman Maness, completes our team. As well, we have Jessica Wolfe
with us as our Youth Liaison and also André Morriseau, who is our Multimedia
Broadcaster working with us. Thank you very much.
9120 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we
would like to take this opportunity to respond to intervenors' comments. Our
responses fall into three areas: our proposed coverage and expected audience
size, our relationship with SHARE FM and our viability based on advertising and
9121 Durham Radio suggested that our proposed
coverage of 106.5 would be overly limited. This is not the case. Durham used
realistic methods to predict interference from WYRK within our proposed three
millivolt per metre contour. Those same methods show the coverage on 106.5 will
be sufficiently interference-free in the downtown area where reception of 740 AM
9122 Comparing coverage for 106.3 and 106.5,
clearly 106.5 has a much larger interference-free coverage area. 106.5 allows
more efficient use of the spectrum because the 106.3 has to be limited to a very
low parameter to protect stations in Guelph and Peterborough.
9123 Durham Radio also alleged that we were unclear
about our audience size. AVR's potential audience size is discussed thoroughly
in the application and is based on maximum coverage of the Toronto CMA using
either the AM/FM combo or a stand-alone FM with amended
9124 CKMW questioned whether the public benefits
that SHARE proposed for AVR should count as Canadian Talent Development funding
under the Commission's criteria.
9125 SHARE has committed to this funding as a
public benefit regardless of whether the Commission accepts it as a CTD. SHARE's
funding has not been included in AVR's business plan and the two applications
are not linked by any dependency, as suggested by Durham. The Commission can
approve one or both applications with confidence that AVR will succeed in its
9126 CKMW characterized SHARE's offer to co-locate
its studio facility and extend many intangible benefits to AVR, mentoring for
instance, as a possible local management agreement. An LMA between a non-profit
and for profit station? That would be unique indeed.
9127 In fact, SHARE made this public benefit offer
not for any financial gain in the manner of an LMA, but because, like their
proposed CTD funding, they felt it was the right thing to do and it made SHARE
an attractive applicant in a very competitive process.
9128 Finally, Durham questioned AVR's viability by
alleging a lack of clarity about our fundraising and advertising revenue
sources. AVR's proposed revenue sources are clear and certain. AVR has no
strings attached, three quarters of a million funding reserve, courtesy of
NewCap Broadcasting, that will easily take care of start-up costs and any
9129 The AVR team are experienced fundraisers on
board. We have experienced fundraisers on board. We raised over $300,000 in six
months for an arts festival last year in addition to the funds to mount this
application. We will clearly be able to gear up our fundraising efforts once we
have a licence in hand.
9130 We also have the option of leasing
transmitting and studio equipment to reduce upfront capital costs, so we know
that cash flow will not hamper our start-up. AVR's business plan is deliberately
skeletal, pared to the bone, and derives a lot of flexibility by showing bare
minimum revenue. We plan to grow with modest beginnings.
9131 Our plan anticipates corporate fundraising,
including program underwriting à la national public radio. Many of our corporate
contacts are interested in this style of delivery. However, the plan is
conservative enough that we can shift towards conventional advertising if
necessary. After all, ad revenue was kept artificially low to allow this kind of
9132 The AVR team has members with a long track
record of successful magaine ad sales and others who have had many years of
administrative experience in non-profit radio. With 24 native communities and
the 740 coverage area, in addition to Toronto's aboriginal population, including
substantial aboriginal populations in Southern Ontario in the towns of
Brantford, London, Fort Erie, Niagara Falls, Hamilton, Belleville, Huntsville,
Windsor, Kitchener-Waterloo and Barrie, et cetera, we expect to see the growth
of the aboriginal community.
9133 We will be an important vehicle to promote
rapid economic development in the aboriginal culture and tourism sectors. In our
seven years of publishing Aboriginal Voices magazine, we have seen over 50 per
cent non-native readership. Because of our near universal access to radio,
greater numbers of non-aboriginals will listen to AVR out of curiosity, as
tourists, maybe even as lovers of aboriginal culture, including aboriginal and
9134 Our plan is so conservative it didn't even
mention the many available forms of public funding. Perhaps the best example is
the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada which has flagged communications amongst
native people as their number one priority.
9135 MS RAMSEY: Good afternoon, Lady Chair and
Commissioners. I am Meredith Ramsey. My role with the Aboriginal Voices is as
Partnership Development Advisor. I am funded through Ontario Native
9136 The Partnership Development Program is part of
Ontario Native Affairs Building Aboriginal Economies Strategy. All levels of our
government have outstanding strategies for bringing aboriginal economies into
the mainstream with an emphasis on the new information age economics, primarily
the fusion between media and technology. Available funding prioritizes the field
in which AVR will operate.
9137 AVR is ready, qualified and capable to
successfully operate a Toronto radio service. We have been working very closely
to develop partnerships with well established organizations like the Bell Centre
for Communications, Centennial College and SMART Toronto which is in partnership
with Price Waterhouse.
9138 These funding sources available to AVR are
different from those available to commercial broadcasters. However, a broad
range of funding is available because public, corporate and private sectors have
made media and technology a priority because of its great
9139 Funding sources already designated for this
project include, and I would like to mention here that within the forementioned
these funds are earmarked for aboriginal purposes. Okay? So they include
Industry Science Technology Canada, Aboriginal Business Canada, especially for
start-up funding, Indian and Northern Affairs and the Economic Renewal
Secretariat which manages the Aboriginal Ontario Capital Investment Funds
including proceeds from Casino Rama.
9140 Furthermore, AVR's programming content
specifically qualifies for funds from the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, which
has over $350 million designated for these programs, Trillium Foundation, Canada
and Ontario Arts Councils, Canadian Heritage and the Ministries of
Communication, Citizenship and Recreation and Education, Development and
9141 I have made a conservative estimate of public
sources which I am confident AVR can access, but which are not currently
included in the business plan as $3.27 million over five years.
9142 AVR should be commended for the amount of
funds raised on their own initiative with conventional advertising and corporate
sources. AVR has strong financial support, expertise and appropriate resource
people to make this station a positive benefit to the general
9143 Also, as a member of the aboriginal community,
I would like to say that we have made significant progress when given the
opportunity. We have never had a radio voice in Toronto. We are prepared. We
have access to funds. We have a viable plan and we look forward very much to
becoming interactive with the greater community.
9144 Thank you.
9145 MR. FARMER: Aboriginal broadcasting is a high
public priority and an attractive funding destination. Within the first year of
operation the Commissioned licensed APTN, they were able to access Canadian
Heritage for $2.1 million. Aboriginal Business Canada provided $100,000. Indian
Affairs granted $80,000 for development. HRDC gave $65,000 and Western
Diversification kicked in $45,000.
9146 We should mention that there are a couple of
funding avenues which we don't plan to take, like selling our air time. When we
were asked last week about brokering programming, we thought you meant selling
our programming to other stations and we would prefer that.
9147 We also have no plans for radio bingo, even
though its a mainstay in native radio. We don't expect to need
9148 To sum up, our funding sources are clear. We
are confident that they will exceed our minimum needs and allow us to surpass
our programming commitments.
9149 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we
have had such underservice to our community for so long, yet we are now strong
enough to use this great media. We have worked really hard to develop a radio
service to benefit all Canadians and we truly believe that our service will be a
9150 We have found this competitive process to have
a steep learning curve, but we have taken on the challenge in the most sincere
belief that our effort will benefit our children and the coming generations. Our
children and yours must hear the wisdom and benefit from the experience of the
9151 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Farmer, I see that your
procedural abilities are growing by leaps and bounds.
9152 Commissioner Williams has a few questions for
you and so has counsel.
9153 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Mr.
Farmer. I guess it appears we have come full circle. We started with a lot of
questions and we still have a few left.
9154 When speaking in support of the Arnalog East
application yesterday, you stressed the cost savings and other benefits your
proposed service could obtain from Auguste if you were also licensed, such as
training, considerable assistance with administrative matters and co-location of
studios. If the Auguste application was not to receive a licence, should the
Commission be concerned about the launch and long term success of your proposed
9155 MR. FARMER: Thank you, Mr. Williams. No, not
at all. Our budget as we proposed in our original application has start-up
economy all set and ready to go without any contribution.
9156 Our original application for our licence for
106.5 and 740 is a stand-alone application and can, you know, do fine without
any benefits from SHARE.
9157 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. Give it some
background on the frequencies. Earlier today Durham stated that they would
establish a Toronto presence whether they were awarded 93.5 or 106.3. In
Durham's oral arguments about your application on Monday, Durham maintained that
co-channel interference from a Buffalo station on 106.5 would be much stronger
than predicted by the technical information filed in your
9158 According to Durham, the practical coverage
area would be significantly reduced from that depicted on your maps. Then in
your comments today you talk about 24 native communities in the 740 coverage
area in addition to Toronto's aboriginal population. The reserves more easily
fall within the range of the 740, but they are well outside the 106.5. How would
your business plan and the delivery of your service to your client group work in
9159 I guess what I am saying is if the Commission
were to license one of your choices, which would be the preferred model, the AM
or the FM given the background?
9160 MR. FARMER: That's a difficult question, only
because the 106.3 with unamended parameters gives us about three million people
where the expanded service reaches the full CMA of Toronto which you already
kind of said that's not looking too good.
9161 That's why we suggested the combo 740 because
we are interested primarily in the Toronto CMA, though we feel we could fight
along and get FM service in those other southern Ontario regions as we grow
stronger. We specifically wanted to ensure that we covered the Toronto CMA
because that's what sustains the business plan that we have before
9162 It's very difficult to say that we could get
740 as a stand-alone without some FM combo to sustain the downtown core, which
is very important to our success as an operation.
9163 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have to admit I am
still just as confused as when I first asked you. Have you said that you would
need both then and not one or the other? Was that your answer?
9164 MR. FARMER: As we set forth in our original
application, the 740/106.5 covers the total CMA and that's what we require to
underwrite our economic plan.
9165 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the event that you
weren't awarded both, what would you preference be and could your business plan
still sustain it on either one of the other options?
9166 MR. FARMER: Just give me a
9167 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take your time.
--- Pause / Pause
9168 MR. FARMER: We have provided to the Commission
a breakdown of FM stand-alone figures as part of one of the additional questions
that we answered. In that projection, pro forma five year projection, we
included reduced advertising revenues potentially from the loss of not having
the whole Toronto CMA for our service.
9169 When we talked about two options that we
wished to be given, what the preference was originally for, 740 and the 106.5,
but we have looked at possibilities to be able to expand the 106.5, so if the
Commission felt they could give two frequencies to one party, that we wanted the
Commission to basically award us the programming service and basically encourage
us to look at ways that we could make the 106.5, you know, make it the most
useful service possible to the Toronto market. We gave you our financial
projections on only the 106.5.
9170 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr.
Farmer. That clears up the questions I had.
9171 MR. FARMER: Thank you, Mr.
9172 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel -- I was
going to invite counsel. Did you have something to else to add?
9173 MR. FARMER: Just that I think that our
Engineer, John Matthews, probably could give you a lot of information about
106.5 if indeed this might be an appropriate time.
9174 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the question is obviously
aimed at getting clearly on the record, which you said in your presentation, is
740 by itself an alternative. You have applied for 740 combined with 106.5. You
said that you would find a way of living with 106.5 without 740, but I haven't
heard the opposite.
9175 MR. FARMER: Yes, for the expanded
9177 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. I think I can shed some
light on that, Commissioner and Chair.
9178 We have looked at 106.5 as it was the most
appropriate fill-in for the area of downtown Toronto where 740 coverage was
inadequate, but we have also identified alternate some frequencies that could be
used for that fill-in purpose and we did mention that in our
9179 You have probably had a lot of people telling
you that these are the last FM frequencies, but we know that to not be the case
for purposes of fill-in coverage for AM 740.
9180 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would be to fill in the
9181 MR. FARMER: Yes.
9182 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- were you not granted the
740, so you may know something we don't but you are not prepared to tell
9183 MR. MacLEOD: No, not at all. No. In our
studies we were quite thorough and we believe that there is more than one
alternative on the FM band for purposes of filling in the area where 740
coverage is not available.
9184 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is addressed to the
extent that you have covered in your application.
9185 MR. MATTHEWS: Yes.
9186 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9187 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam
9188 It must be late in the day or in the week or
both. Would 740 as a stand-alone work?
9189 MR. FARMER: Well, we are excited by that
opportunity because it services the largest audience, of course, if there is a
ten million --
9190 MR. RHÉAUME: 740 stand-alone is fine. 106.5
stand-alone is also fine?
9191 MR. FARMER: Well, we would prefer the expanded
version of that.
9192 MR. RHÉAUME: Yes. Have you looked at any other
9193 MR. FARMER: Yes, we have. We have looked at
the extended frequencies on the AM band and realized that they are kind out of
touch for us financially as well as, you know, many radios don't have that
expanded version, so the inclusivity of our application would be somewhat shut
down, so we don't really see them as a viable service.
9194 MR. RHÉAUME: So in your case it's only an
issue of cost or resources.
9195 MR. FARMER: It's also costs and the
inclusivity. It doesn't include everyone. It's only people who have that certain
kind of radio that goes up to that high frequency.
9196 MR. RHÉAUME: LMAs. I think I understand your
point about a non-profit and a for profit station, but unfortunately I'm not
sure if the regs are that nimble or supple.
9197 If it was decided that in the case were Mr.
Auguste is licensed and you are licensed, would you be prepared to apply for a
condition of licence with respect to that LMA?
9198 MR. FARMER: Yes.
9199 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. If you are granted the
licences you are asking for, how long would it take you to be on
9200 MR. FARMER: Well, we would like to be on air
for National Aboriginal Day.
9201 MR. RHÉAUME: I beg your
9202 MR. FARMER: It would be within one
9203 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, sir.
9204 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Counsel, I think he
believes June 21.
9205 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. That's it for
9206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer and
your colleagues. This is your last, probably to your relief, your last
appearance before us in this process.
9207 MR. FARMER: It has been a pleasure and we have
some gifts for you also. Please accept them on behalf of Aboriginal Voices
9208 Thank you.
9209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9210 Mr. Secretary, please.
9211 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
9212 The next applicant to reply to all
interventions is CHWO Ontario Incorporated.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
9213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Mr.
9214 MR. CAINE: Thank you and good late afternoon,
Madam Chairperson and Commissioners. My name is Michael Caine. To my right is
Jacqui Gerrard, the Controller of our Company, and to my left is our
Vice-President, Harry McDonald.
9215 Thank you for this opportunity to respond
verbally to the comments made in the written intervention of 1540 Radio Limited
which is the only negative intervention our application has
9216 Although the Commission is in receipt of our
detailed written response, we would like to briefly set out some of the main
points in reply at this time.
9217 First of all, contrary to CHIN's view, we have
provided overwhelming evidence in our application and at this hearing that there
exists a strong demand for radio service for the largest and fastest growing
segment of the population.
9218 In the Greater Toronto area alone, over 1.2
million people are over the age of 50 and they live and work in the GTA and
throughout Southern Ontario, an additional 1.1 million fifty-plusers would hear
the 740 signal. That's a targeted 2.2 million people in a single demographic
9219 One of the primary objectives in these
deliberations is to determine which application brings the greatest diversity to
the Toronto market. We believe the clear choice is AM 740 Primetime Radio. The
intervenor's contention that there are existing stations in Toronto that focus
on fifty plus music that appeals to the fifty plus demographic is simply
9220 We have clearly shown that the adult standards
to be heard on AM 740, the kind of music described by our supporting intervenors
last Monday as the timeless tunes you can sing, hum or whistle, are not played
on any radio station in Toronto. In fact, not one of the over 20 AM and FM
stations licensed for Toronto is identified as having an adult standards
9221 With respect to the doubt expressed by the
intervenor regarding the viability of our proposed adult standards format on AM
740, we want to refute those comments and offer the following
9222 The market studies conducted by the Solutions
Research Group and Harrison, Young, Personen and Newell are thorough, credible
and beyond reproach. Their conclusions are clear: (a) there will be a
substantial audience for AM 740 Primetime Radio, and (b) the revenue projections
are realistic and paint a positive sales picture for the new
9223 In addition, our extensive experience in fifty
plus marketing will allow us to have a substantial head start in attaining year
one projections because $1.1 million worth of existing airtime sales will be
transferred to the new venture from CHWO 1250. This amount is equal to 60 per
cent of the first year sales projections for AM 740 Primetime Radio.
9224 Contrary to CHIN's assertion and in order to
clarify the issue, the viability of CHWO 1250 is also ensured because its
subsidiary station, CJMR 1320, will transfer the revenues garnered from its
family oriented, contemporary Christian music programming to the new JOY
9225 This amount, which accounts for 35 per cent of
CJMR's revenue, will make up 73 per cent of JOY 1250's year one projections,
again ensuring a substantial base from which to deliver the area's first full
time station dedicated to family values and contemporary Christian
9226 CJMR will easily be able to replace the
Christian programming revenue through new, quality ethnic programming produced
by CJMR and its program partners.
9227 Remember too that our revenue projections are
only one aspect of our overall financial strength. Our strong, experienced,
responsible management will be of great benefit to AM 740 Primetime radio,
allowing us to control expenses where needed and spend effectively and prudently
to have the desired impact on our target audience in and around the GTA and
9228 We know too how important it is to invest in
the development and presentation of our programming. That's why our program
expenses at CHWO 1250 in Oakville have historically been higher than the
national average for medium market AM stations when expressed as a percentage of
9229 We also know that to successfully compete in
Canada's largest major market against Canada's largest and most powerful
broadcasters, we will have to continue that commitment to program excellence.
Thus, our AM 740 program expenses as a percentage of sales will be higher than
the average of Toronto AM or FM stations, as shown in the CRTC's financial
database that accompanied the call for applications.
9230 With reasonable audience expectations, easily
attainable sales projections and with the ability and experience to handle major
market expenses, it is abundantly clear that contrary to CHIN's assertion, the
CHWO business plan is absolutely viable and AM 740 Primetime radio will be a
success in every regard.
9231 Furthermore, the entire plan can be achieved
with what the researchers conclude as "negligible impact" on the audiences and
revenues of existing stations. At the same time, the licensing of AM 740
Primetime radio permits the establishment of three other formats to the area:
our JOY 1250's family format featuring contemporary Christian music and two
licences on FM to be selected by CRTC.
9232 Madam Chair and Commissioners, contrary to
CHIN's contention that our application does not serve the needs and interest and
reflect the circumstances and aspirations of all Canadians, we respectfully and
emphatically disagree by submitting to you that our application in fact
represents a remarkable and rare opportunity to satisfy a number of different
and unique requests for radio service.
9233 Throughout this entire process, we have not
heard anything that dissuades us from the conviction that the CHWO application
will permit the optimum use of the available frequencies to provide the greatest
diversity in Canada's most populated region. We hope you will agree and grant
our application for AM 740 Primetime radio.
9234 To conclude, we are very gratified by the over
7,000 individuals who have written to you in support of our application,
including Mayors, Cabinet Ministers, MPs, MPPs, fifty-plus organizations that
represent hundreds of thousands of people: educators, advertisers, the Toronto
Musicians' Association, famous international artists like Liona Boyd and Gordie
Tapp and not-so-famous artists who are looking forward to AM 740 Primetime radio
helping them become famous.
9235 Finally, we wish to thank the thousands upon
thousands of everyday Canadians from every walk of life all across Toronto and
throughout Southern Ontario for their heartfelt and meaningful
9236 We would especially like to thank the ten
intervenors who were invited to address the Commission last Monday. They
represented a wonderful cross-section of people and they spoke with sincerity,
intelligence and passion. We are very grateful to them for their important and
9237 Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, we
than you and the CRTC for this opportunity to appear before you.
9238 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
9239 Counsel, please.
9240 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
9241 That whole business of the extended AM band,
is this totally without merit?
9242 MR. CAINE: I'm sorry, it is hard to hear over
9243 MR. RHÉAUME: I know there is noise at the
back. The entire business of the extended AM band, is this totally without merit
according to you?
9244 MR. CAINE: For us?
9245 MR. RHÉAUME: Well, for you and just in general
if you want.
9246 MR. CAINE: In general, I wouldn't necessarily
say so. There may be specific applications of the extended band, both 1610 and
1670, for specific purposes. One assumes, of course, that you can find a
transmitter site to put it on.
9247 For our purposes, we did look at the extended
band. Just about a year ago we asked Wayne Stacey, an Engineering Consultant
well known to the Commission, we asked him to provide us with some technical
analysis of what our options might be.
9248 Amongst other options, Mr. Stacey did look at
those two frequencies. His conclusions and recommendations were that the best
possible technical solution, if you will, for us to reach the 50-plus audience
9249 We also engaged Gordon Elder, whom you have
heard at this hearing. Mr. Elder happens to be our Consulting Engineer for 1250
and 1320. He too has mentioned this to us. The limitations he talked about with
those two frequencies at this hearing he has made known to us as
9250 We are also aware that especially within the
fifty-plus audience, which are AM friendly that is true, but many of the radios
that they have are unable to accommodate the expanded AM band.
9251 The final reason that we excluded the expanded
AM band was the fact that, as I mentioned, the difficulty in finding a
transmitter site and the exorbitant cost that might be involved with that. We
felt financially much more comfortable in leasing the somewhat expensive lease
arrangements of the CBC, but nevertheless that site at Hornby is going to be
there a long time and the technical support and so on was much more attractive
9252 MR. RHÉAUME: So when you say, Mr. Caine, that
these extended frequencies might work for specific purpose but not for you, what
do you mean by that?
9253 MR. CAINE: Well, because of the limitations of
them, they would be better suited for, in our opinion, for more direct or
limited use. I recall, for example, a couple of years ago, perhaps longer, there
was an application before the Commission for a Tamil radio station. I believe
they were interested in -- the application was on the extended
9254 From a technical standpoint, we did not oppose
that application. We did on other grounds, but not on the
9255 MR. RHÉAUME: As I understand the AM band, and
correct me if I'm wrong, one would be hard pressed to find a better frequency
than 740. Are we comparing everything with 740 here when we sort of brush aside
the extended AM band?
9256 MR. CAINE: For our purposes and the audience
that we wish to serve, as we have indicated, they are well within the reach of
the 740 signal, there are over 2.3 million people who are over fifty. It is, as
I indicated in evidence in chief, the need for this frequency or this frequency
is commensurate with the need that it is going to fulfil.
9257 I quite like Andy McNabb's answer to that one,
to tell you the truth, that it's large enough to fill the biggest need. That's
exactly our response as well.
9258 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. If you were given 740,
how long would it take you to be on air?
9259 MR. CAINE: As soon as
9260 MR. RHÉAUME: Within a year?
9261 MR. CAINE: Absolutely.
9262 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you.
9263 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
9264 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
9265 MR. CAINE: Thank you very
9266 THE CHAIRPERSON: We enjoyed having you before
us for the last time in this particular process.
9267 Mr. Secretary, please.
9268 MR. CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we have one
more competing Toronto radio applicant to respond to all interventions and that
is YTV Canada Incorporated.
9269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms McNair.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
9270 MR. ROBERTSON: Thank you. It's a pleasure to
be in the clean-up position here.
9271 I am Paul Robertson and this is Kathleen
McNair. We are pleased to be appearing today to respond to the interventions
filed concerning our application for YTV Radio on 740 AM.
9272 First, we wish to acknowledge and thank the
intervenors who demonstrated their high level of interest in YTV's application
by filing such thoughtful letters of support. These written interventions stand
on their own merit.
9273 We would now like to reply to the
interventions by CIRPA and CHIN. Both suggest that YTV Radio will not introduce
diversity into the Toronto radio market. As you might expect, we
9274 Of all the applications before you, we believe
ours is the one that promises a completely unique service, one that does not
exist in Toronto or anywhere in Canada. Our application is not about
narrowcasting. Rather, it is the most inclusive AM proposal before
9275 YTV Radio will respond to the interests and
needs of more than 500,00 children six to eleven from all cultural and racial
groups in the 740 coverage area. These children are not just underserved by
Toronto radio stations, they are not served at all. Think of it, more than half
a million children with no voice in the largest radio market in the
9276 CHIN suggests that YTV Radio should not be
licensed since there is no need for an unproven radio format in the market.
Again, we disagree.
9277 The Angus Reid survey results provide ample
evidence there is great demand for our proposal. Ninety-one per cent of those
surveyed think that a kids' station is a good idea. The response to YTV Radio
demonstrated on our Web site validates the Angus Reid results. Eighty per cent
of children six to eleven responded positively to the proposed
9278 This is an overwhelming affirmation that kids
need and want a radio station that's just for them. Kids are brutally honest.
Certainly we must not discount their responses merely because of their
9279 We also urge the Commission to focus on our
supporting interventions which demonstrate the demand for the service. The
Alliance for Children and Television state that the YTV proposal, and I am
"-- serves a clear public interest. YTV Radio will provide children with
a significant new opportunity for shared experience that is not dependent on
9280 Ben Wicks, cartoonist and founder of the
literary program Born to Read writes:
"-- to allow children to have a radio station of their very own is well
9281 Optimedia, one of Canada's most respected
experts in children's media states that:
"The area of child radio is underserved and there is a demand by this
audience group for their own radio
9282 Rather than recognizing the truly unique
nature of our proposal, CHIN and CIRPA suggest that YTV Radio will simply be a
Top 40 station masquerading as a children's station. Nothing could be farther
from the truth.
9283 The sound of YTV Radio will be like no other
station in the marketplace. It will be inclusive in its appeal and reflective of
the very diverse, young audience within the 740 coverage area. Children are
receptive to new sounds, ideas and cultures. Our programming will give children
a sense of place and create a common bond with kids from all backgrounds and
cultures across the listening area.
9284 The musical selections will be appropriate for
our young audience. We will broaden their interests and horizons by exposing
them to an array of genres. The majority of current selections broadcast by Top
40 stations will not be aired. Our review of the current tracks played by
Toronto radio stations during the week of January 17 indicate that more than 60
of the selections would not be appropriate for YTV Radio.
9285 Our spoken word programming will also be
entirely unique. Where else would you hear children's bedtime stories, kids
speaking to kids on air and student radio reporters from schools across the
9286 Contrary to CIRPA and CHIN's suggestions,
existing radio stations do not program for children. Without a kids' radio
station, children will continue to tune to radio that is meant for adults and
older teens. Canadian parents have endorsed the kinder and gentler television
programs that have become the hallmark of our Canadian producers. Yet there is
no radio service appropriate for kids in the Toronto region.
9287 How can we be satisfied when an eight year old
girl is repeatedly bombarded by songs with sexual and violent content? Isn't it
unfortunate how quickly the adult-oriented media of today propels children
towards maturity? Children quickly skip through the most magical time of their
lives, a time when wonder and imagination have free rein unfettered by the
weight of adult concerns.
9288 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we respectfully
submit that this application represents an opportunity for you to take a bold
step, to be the first to license a radio service totally dedicated to children,
one that speaks to their interests with ideas, programming and role models
appropriate for their age group.
9289 It was a bold step that the Commission took
when it originally licensed YTV, the first kids' programming service in Canada.
Today YTV is a beacon to children in Canada and the engine that has driven the
Canadian kids' production industry to become the best in the world. In the same
spirit, YTV Radio can make an outstanding contribution to our children and the
Canadian broadcasting system.
9290 We believe that Toronto area children not only
need their own radio station, they deserve it. However, if a radio station is
simply to be reserved for adult audiences or specific ethnic or linguistic
groups, then don't license the service.
9291 If radio is seen as a medium primarily for
passive entertainment with no room or capacity for development and enrichment of
children's minds, then don't license the service. If the Commission believes
that children should be seen but not heard, then don't license the
9292 But if children really do have a place in
radio as well as the other sectors of the broadcasting system, and the Act
states that they do, and if radio is perceived as a potent instrument for their
entertainment, education and the stimulation of their imaginations, then there
is every reason to license this service.
9293 Thank you for your consideration of our
application. That concludes our comments.
9294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
9295 Counsel, please.
9296 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam
9297 Given that your service, your proposed
service, is such a narrowly focused to children type service, would the extended
AM band be feasible? Does it make a difference?
9298 MS McNAIR: Yes, it does. Actually we asked our
Consulting Engineer, Doug Allen, to look at the coverage of the extended AM
band. He informed us that it's not adequate for our target audience. He also
informed us that the extended band would require the erection of a tower if a
site was available, so he did not see it as a viable option for
9299 MR. RHÉAUME: When you say it's not adequate,
is it an issue of cost, is it an issue of finding suitable property to erect a
tower? When you say it's not adequate, would you elaborate on
9300 MS McNAIR: He felt that the coverage we could
get out of the extended AM band wouldn't be adequate for us. We are focusing
more on, you know, the large 740 coverage area that has more than half a million
kids in it.
9301 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you. On 740, how long would
it take you to get on air?
9302 MR. ROBERTSON: You would have to hold us back,
but certainly less than a year.
9303 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you kindly.
9304 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
9305 I believe that this completes this part of our
hearing. My colleagues and I wish to thank the applicants and their respective
teams for their cooperation throughout this process.
9306 We have worked hard together in expanding and
clarifying the record, but we nevertheless managed to share a few
9307 We also thank all the intervenors, those who
intervened in writing and those who found the corner of 401 and Keele and
appeared before us in person. Again, our thanks to all of you and to my
colleagues, of course, for their help.
9308 Mr. Secretary, you are satisfied that this is
the end of this part of the process?
9309 MR. CUSSONS: Yes, Madam Chairperson. We have
completed all four phases of the competitive process.
9310 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will resume then tomorrow
morning at nine o'clock to hear the amendment requested by Dufferin
Communications, which is the last part of the agenda.
9311 Thank you and have a good evening.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1745,
to resume on Friday, February 11, 2000
at 0900 / L'audience est adjournée à 1745, pour
reprendre le vendredi 11 février 2000 à 0900