TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/
DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 7, 2000 le 7 février 2000
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Broadcasting Applications and Licences/
Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente
M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère
J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller
R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller
C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
P. Cussons Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et
D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 7, 2000 le 7 février 2000
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PHASE II - INTERVENTION BY/PAR
CHWO Ontario Inc. 1117
Mr. Gary Farmer 1118
Durham Radio Inc. 1118
CKMW Radio Limited 1126
Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc. 1136
Mr. Andy McNabb 1136
Mr. Denham Jolly 1137
Mr. Arnold Auguste 1143
Fairchild Radio Toronto Ltd. 1144
914258 Ontario Limited 1150
Radio 1540 Limited 1162
PHASE III - INTERVENTION BY/PAR
CIRC Radio Inc. 1189
Dufferin Communications Incorporated 1219
Mr. Jack Miller 1236
J. Lyman Potts 1248
Humber School of Performing Arts 1254
Diamond Entertainment Inc. 1264
Medipac International Inc. 1271
Great Canadian Coaches and Holidays 1276
Mr. Russ Little 1281
Mr. Daniel Woods 1289
Ms Anna Romain 1300
Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
--- Upon resuming on Monday, February 7, 2000
at 0915 / L'audience reprend le lundi
7 février 2000 à 0915
5389 THE CHAIRPERSON: We apologize for the delay. I hope
you all had an extra cup of coffee.
5390 Go ahead, Mr. Secretary.
5391 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, and
good morning everyone.
5392 We have now reached what we call Phase II of the
competitive process. At this point in the proceedings, we invite our competing
radio applicants to come back one at a time, in the same order that we called
them last week, to intervene on one another's applications.
5393 Again, as I mentioned I believe at the beginning at
the hearing, we are allowing people ten minutes for this exercise.
5394 Before I introduce the first applicant, I would like
to echo a message that the Chairperson mentioned a couple of times last
5395 We would really appreciate it again if members of the
audience could please switch off all their cell phones and pagers and so on. It
can be distracting during presentations and questions, so we would really
appreciate your cooperation on that, and I thank you.
5396 Without further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce,
for intervention, YTV Canada Inc.
5397 MR. PETER CUSSONS: It would seem that YTV is not with
us, or perhaps they have no comment to make. In that case, I will introduce our
next applicant, CHWO Ontario Inc.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5398 MR. MICHAEL CAIN: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Good
morning, Madam Chairperson and Commissioners.
5399 We believe that our concerns with out competitors'
applications for AM-740, and their respective shortcomings, have already been
dealt with in Phase I of this public hearing, so we too will forego the
opportunity to intervene against them, and instead look forward to seeing you at
the rebuttal phase and Phase III.
5400 Thank you.
5401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Cain.
5402 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I would now like to invite Mr.
Gary Farmer to come forward and present his intervention please.
5403 Mr. Farmer.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5404 MR. GARY FARMER: Good morning, everyone, Madam Chair,
Commissioners. I would just take this opportunity to say good morning and happy
5405 I do not have any comment at this time, but I am glad
to be here, and will continue to participate.
5406 Thank you.
5407 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
5408 Mr. Secretary, please.
5409 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Next on our list, Durham Radio
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5410 MR. STEVE KASSAY: Good morning, Madam Chair,
5411 Does the time from the first three accrue to our
5412 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Probably not!
5413 MR. STEVE KASSY: We are prepared to say a few things
this morning. Mr. Kirk is in transit and on his way, and we are hopeful he will
be joining us in just a few minutes from now.
5414 My name is Steve Kassy. I am the Operations Manager
and Program Director at CJKX-FM Ajax. With me again this week is our General
Sales Manager Steve McCauley.
5415 Thank you for hearing us this morning. Bearing in
mind the specific items and issues of concern to the Commission, as noted by
Chairperson Wylie at the commencement of these proceedings one week ago today,
we wish to begin our comments by addressing diversity. Our comments this morning
are interventions against certain competing applications for the Toronto radio
5416 We begin by addressing diversity or no diversity of
service. In their submissions, B. Denham Jolly, whom we will refer to here as
"Jolly", and Arnold A. Auguste, to whom we will refer to as "Auguste", clearly
admit that much of their proposed "urban" music is presently heard on
originating stations in the Toronto market.
5417 It is our contention that the licensing of the Jolly
or Auguste applications will not add to diversity in the market. Obviously,
replication of the format will be competitive with in-market stations, namely
CISS-FM, CING-FM, and CIDC-FM.
5418 In contrast, diversity of service: Durham Radio's
proposed Country format is distinct and unduplicated. Clearly, Country widens
the distinct choice of format services available in this market.
5419 In terms of independent ownership, concerning the
Jolly, Auguste and Farmer applications -- the Gary Farmer application we
will refer to as the "Farmer" application today -- Durham Radio Inc. is an
independent broadcasting operator. Our application is not connected in any way
with another broadcaster in the Toronto market.
5420 The Jolly application is obviously 29.9 per cent
owned by Standard Radio, one of Canada's largest broadcasting groups which
already has a major presence in Toronto through the ownership of CFRB-AM and
CKFM-FM. Licensing the Jolly application would not provide diversity of voices
in the market because of this association.
5421 In addition, control of the Jolly enterprise (if
licensed) could change very early in its license term if it fails to meet its
plan and triggers provisions in shareholders agreement. We would refer the
Commission to section 3.04 of their proposed agreement.
5422 The Auguste and Farmer applications are effectively
tied together with their common association to Newcap Broadcasting and
interlocking benefit proposals, proposed co-location, sharing of facilities, and
5423 In terms of demand, or no quantifiable proof of
demand, in their submissions, Farmer, Jolly and Auguste fail to conclusively
prove demand for their services. For Jolly and Auguste, repatriation is being
depended upon. However, complete repatriation of out-of-market tuning is not
only unlikely, but also not substantial enough to satisfy their
5424 To achieve their projected market shares, we believe
that substantial tuning will have to be transferred from existing Toronto based
stations, namely, CISS-FM, CIDC-FM, and CING-FM.
5425 In contrast, quantifiable proof of demand, Durham
Radio proves that there is an unserved Toronto audience of 360,000 people. The
Country format satisfied a quantifiable demand.
5426 In terms of soundness of revenue projections and
sustainability of the business plan, specifically regarding the Jolly and
Auguste applications, these two applications project very significant tuning
market shares: 3.4 per cent-plus, and 6 to 8 per cent, both in the 18-54 demo.
And these underpin their business plans.
5427 We believe these market shares are aggressive, given
that the three stations -- CISS, CING and CIDC -- already operate in
similar formats in the Toronto market, with music overlaps between
5428 Secondly, both the Jolly and Auguste applications
cite repatriation of tuning and ad revenue from WBLK-FM in Buffalo. As a
significant part of their plans, we vigorously dispute this assertion, for two
reasons: (1) WBLK-FM has negligible tuning in Toronto, referring to Spring '99s
BBM, it shows 0.7 per cent, and MobilTRACK tuning, judged in December of '99,
shows less than 0.1 per cent of in-car tuning; (2) WBLK-FM derives negligible
revenue from the Toronto market. Jolly cites 1.0 to 1.5 million dollars, and
Auguste cites 2 million dollars of potential revenue repatriation from
5429 We contacted Jeff Silver, the VP and GM of WBLK-FM in
Buffalo, and he confirmed that WBLK-FM's Canadian revenues were significantly
less than $500,000 Cd, and that includes revenues from Niagara based
5430 Our conclusion is that the revenue expectations in
the Jolly and Auguste applications are based on unsound, regarding WBLK-FM's
revenue, and very aggressive assumptions.
5431 Regarding the Farmer application, the lack of clarity
in connection with potential audience size and revenue sources from fundraising
and advertising raises doubts about the viability of this
5432 We have, as part of this, a specific technical
intervention concerning Mr. Farmer's application. Durham Radio opposes this
application, and opposes Farmer's contention that 106.5 MHz will provide a
usable Toronto signal. 106.5 MHz is a co-channel, the same frequency, to WYRK in
Buffalo, New York. WYRK is a full Class B station, 50,000 Watts at full height.
Its signal on 106.5 is widely available throughout Toronto on a consistent
5433 Our general technical issues, to regress for one
moment, is that 93.5 and 106.3 are indeed the very, very, very last FM
allotments in Toronto, unless Industry Canada does change its rules. We wish to
make note that there three very usable AM frequencies available in Toronto. They
would be 740, for which applicants have applied, 1610, and 1670 KHz.
5434 We believe the Commission should award the FM for the
best use: a mainstream music format that is not currently available in
5435 Community based, eclectic, niche formats which rely
on a much higher level of spoken word content, such as CKMW's Rainbow Radio or
Farmer's Aboriginal Voices Radio, could and should be accommodated on the AM
5436 Back to the explication of WYRK explaining it is a
co-channel on 106.5. Co-channel is the most destructive interference to FM
broadcasting, and it is experienced where the offending co-channel station's
signal is one-tenth the strength of the desired station.
5437 WYRK's coverage in Toronto is much better than
predicted by conventional engineering methods because of the effect of Lake
Ontario, which lies between Buffalo an Toronto. It basically negates the
distance between the two.
5438 With this intervention we are attaching, as Appendix
1, a study by our consulting engineer, Wayne A. Stacey, which provides his
expert opinion that WYKR-FM will cause "significant areas of interference
outside of the proposed 106.5 MHz 3mV/m city grade contour if this station is
5439 The Commission will recall the problems faced by
CIRV-FM ten years ago in a similar situation. It suffered severe co-channel
interference from a much lower powered Buffalo station. Subsequently, CIRV had
to change frequencies.
5440 Our conclusion to this technical matter, therefore,
is that Durham Radio Inc. concludes that the proposed use of 106.5 MHz in
Toronto will not deliver the coverage predicted by the applicant.
5441 You will find in your package also the Appendix from
5442 Thank you for your time. That concludes our
presentation on this matter. We would be more than pleased to entertain any
questions you may have.
5443 Thank you.
5444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it a problem that Mr. Kirk not
here yet, or were you able to deliver all the messages by yourselves?
5445 MR. STEVE KASSY: The complete message is
5446 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are satisfied that you had the
5447 MR. STEVE KASSY: Quite satisfied. Thank
5448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5449 Mr. Secretary.
5450 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5451 I would now like to invite CKMW Radio Limited.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5452 MR. BILL EVANOV: Good morning, Madam Chairperson,
Members of the Commission. My name is Bill Evanov, President of CKMW Radio
Limited. I am joined, for this presentation, by Carmela Laurignano, General
Manager of Rainbow Radio and Vice-President of CIAO Radio and
5453 To her left is Bob Linney, President of Cue Two
Communications, the consulting firm that has been involved in the development of
our application for 93.5, and conducted the market research for Rainbow
5454 It is our understanding that there are four
requirements for consideration in assigning the 93.5 FM frequency, and we would
like to address each of them in presenting our concerns about two of the other
5455 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: It is our view that one
statio, and only one station, meets all of the criteria, and that is the
proposal we have presented for Rainbow Radio. It provides diversity in proposing
to serve a completely new radio market. Rainbow Radio also represents the best
use of an FM frequency with restricted downtown coverage.
5456 Let me begin our analysis with the application filed
5457 We oppose this application, on the basis that it adds
no diversity to the market. When we examined the music play list provided by
CanDance and compared it to what other FM stations, especially CIDC-FM, already
offer in the market, we found significant overlap. In our written intervention,
we identified and documented the high level of duplication of titles and
5458 We also contend that the music proposed for airplay
on CanDance duplicates existing play lists, in part, on two other radio
stations: CISS-FM and CING-FM. The proposal by CanDance also ignores the fact
that several stations, including CIAO, CHIN-AM, CHIN-FM, as well as CIRV, CKLN
and CIUT, provide programming that addresses diversity in the market by
targeting very specific market segments within the Afro-Caribbean and Canadian
5459 MR. BOB LINNEY: We would also like to raise the issue
of best use of the frequency and the audience projections made by CanDance. When
we put together our original research, we had Statistics Canada map out both the
3 and 5 millivolt contours of the signal. We did this not only to identify the
population size, but also the composition of the area.
5460 According to StatsCan, there are an estimated 274,000
Visible Minority Blacks in the Toronto CMA, or 6.5 per cent of the Toronto CMA
population of 4.2 million. The population within the 3 millivolt contour is
approximately 1.2 million. Of that population, only 81,750 are visible minority
black, which represents 6.4 per cent of the population in the area. This
distribution is in line with the overall market percentage, but in fact means
the 93.5 frequency only reaches 29 per cent of the Visible Minority Black
population within the Toronto CMA.
5461 Mr. Auguste has himself stated that the 93.5
frequency would not be sufficient to serve the market he has identified. He has
asked not only for 93.5, but AM-740 as well. We oppose the dedication of two
signals to the same format, and suggest that the best use of 93.5 would be
effectively to serve a downtown audience. The overlap between the contours of
740 and 93.5 would in essence waste part of the limited broadcast
5462 The 93.5 FM frequency does not meet the needs of the
audience in the format as filed in the CanDance application, and the applicant
has confirmed this fact by proposing a modified signal pattern to make the
frequency match the market.
5463 In addition to not correctly identifying the location
of their core market, we believe the applicant's projected potential audience is
over estimated. When we look at the reality of Toronto radio today and the
shares achieved by existing and experienced broadcasters, only three stations in
the Toronto CMA achieve a share of anywhere between 8 to 12, according to the
1999 fall BBM. A new station with a format duplicating in whole or in part the
formats of stations already serving the market, on a frequency that cannot reach
the entire CMA, would be pulling off nothing short of a minor broadcasting
miracle to achieve their projected numbers.
5464 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Which leads us to our third
concern: market impact.
5465 CanDance has estimated a market share of 8, but
projected revenues of only 2.1 million. At that audience level, CanDance would
be the fourth biggest station in the largest radio market in Canada. We fail to
understand how an 8 share would result in such small revenues. In fact, if
CanDance can deliver even half of this audience, it would dwarf what several CMA
stations are delivering now and make it a serious competitor beyond the format
category it has defined.
5466 As experienced broadcasters, we know what revenues we
are able to generate on a two share, and question whether the issue of market
impact has been successfully addressed by this applicant.
5467 The fourth requirement in assessing an application is
Canadian Talent Development. Two specific aspects of the applicant's proposed
contribution to Canadian Talent, we would argue, should not be considered in the
analysis of this application.
5468 First, the majority of the proposed CanDance
investment in Canadian talent development would actually go to another
non-profit broadcaster -- more than 65 per cent of the proposed annual
contribution. This investment goes to the development of another Canadian radio
station, rather than the performing artists.
5469 This same argument should also apply to the CanDance
proposal to hire a Canadian Talent Development Co-Ordinator. While the position
certainly has merit, the act of including the annual salary of a staff member is
normally an administrative expense.
5470 MR. BILL EVANOV: We would like to draw the
Commission's attention to the major involvement of NewCap as the principal
investor. Included in the ownership description in the application are
procedures, we suggest, that would give NewCap full control of the license if
the new company defaults on any repayment schedule after the first license term.
We believe this means the actual control of the licence would not be clear until
the station is into its second license period, some time after the year
5471 And finally, on page 561 of the CanDance application
and again in the oral presentation, the applicant describes an arrangement
between CanDance and Aboriginal Voices that would include but not be limited to
the sharing of sales, accounting/bookkeeping, and other administrative
5472 It is our view that pursuant to Public Notice
1999-176, this arrangement may constitute a local management agreement and, as
such, would both have to be considered as part of this application and possibly
as a condition of license. We see no reference to this in the filed
5473 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Chairperson,
Commissioners, we have similar concerns about some aspects of the Milestone
application. I would like to use the same four points in analysing their
5474 We oppose this application on the basis that they do
not add diversity to the market. As was the case with CanDance, when we examined
the list of artists provided by Milestone and compared it to what other CHR
format stations already offer in the market, we found significant
5475 Milestone notes in its own research that 24 per cent
of its potential listeners now consider CISS-FM as their favourite station,
again pointing out the close music play list and genre of Milestone and existing
5476 MR. BILL LINNEY: We have the same questions about
signal coverage and potential audience provided in the estimates of the
Milestone application. All applicants, including Mr. Jolly, filed an identical
contour map provided by the CBC. In Mr. Jolly's written application and again in
his response to deficiencies, he notes that a waiver of interference would be
required to make effective use of this signal to reach his market.
5477 In discussions with our engineers, consultant Doug
MacCaulay, well known to the Commission, confirmed that only the 3 millivolt is
a reliable measure. It is their contention, and the basis of our intervention,
that in a built-up urban market like Toronto, the 0.5 millivolt signal is
unreliable. However, in reply to our intervention and in his presentation to the
Commission, Mr. Jolly contended that the signal went well beyond the
0.5 millivolt contour, yet offered no technical evidence.
5478 In our written intervention filed against Milestone
we did provide a map, prepared by Compusearch using Statistics Canada data,
showing how the 93.5 FM frequency does not cover the target market for
5479 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Which leads us to the issue of
market impact. Milestone has estimated a market share of 3.4, with projected
revenues of 3.9 million. Of major concern is the applicant's projection
that close to 90 per cent of these revenues would come from existing radio
stations. Of all the applicants for 93.5, Milestone projects the biggest revenue
and business impact on existing area broadcasters.
5480 The fourth question about area is that of Canadian
Talent Development. We note that Milestone has also included a salary position
in their contribution, as well as elements usually considered as programming
5481 MR. BILL EVANOV: We are also concerned with the
proposed ownership and operations of Milestone. We would like to draw the
Commission's attention to the major involvement of Standard Broadcasting as the
principal investor. In addition to providing millions of dollars in direct
investment, Milestone says that it will rely heavily on Standard Broadcasting in
areas such as sales, marketing and promotion.
5482 Conventional business norms for synergies imply
efficiencies gained from streamlined or combined operations within the same
company. We would suggest what Milestone is proposing to be better classified as
an LMA under the terms and conditions the CRTC has been using. The terms of this
LMA have not been included in the application.
5483 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Chairperson,
Commissioners, to quickly summarize:
5484 There are no programming or service enhancements for
Toronto from either CanDance or Milestone.
5485 Both applicants lack solid business plans due to
either faulty identification of market or improbable audience
5486 Market impact has been misrepresented or
misunderstood by both of these applicants.
5487 Commitments to Canadian Talent Development by both
applicants fail to meet the guidelines and standards set out by the
5488 In both applications, ownership is unclear and what
they have described as synergies may be, de facto, LMAs.
5489 As a result of these concerns, CKMW Radio Limited, on
behalf of Rainbow Radio, wishes to intervene in opposition to these
applications, and would welcome any questions you may have about our
5490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. Laurignano and
Mr. Evanov, and colleague.
5491 Mr. Secretary, please.
5492 LE SECRÉTAIRE: Merci, madame la
5493 La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc.
--- Pause / Pause
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5494 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Quelques-uns de mes collègues vont
5495 M. MARTEL: Nous n'avons rien à ajouter à ce moment
précis. C'est ce que je voulais dire, que la Coopérative préfère conserver ses
arguments pour la Phase III et la Phase IV. À ce moment-ci, nous n'avons rien à
5496 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je vous remercie, Monsieur.
5497 Mr. Secretary, please.
5498 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5499 I would now like to invite 1158556 Ontario Ltd. to
present any intervention it would like to.
--- Pause / Pause
5500 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I don't believe Mr. De
Brabant is with us.
5501 I would then call upon Mr. Andy McNabb to
present his intervention.
5502 Mr. McNabb, please.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5503 MR. ANDY McNABB: Good morning,
5504 Toronto Christian Radio respectfully declines the
opportunity to intervene against our competitors.
5505 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
5506 Mr. Secretary.
5507 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I would now like to give an
opportunity to B. Denham Jolly to present his intervention please. I believe Mr.
Jolly does have one, because I have some copies to hand out.
--- Pause / Pause
5508 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Monsieur Jolly.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5509 MR. DENHAM JOLLY: Good morning, Madam Chairperson and
Members of the Commission.
5510 Milestone appreciates this opportunity to participate
at Phase II of this competitive application process. We would like to restrict
our intervention today to the application filed by SHARE for 93.5 FM and 740 AM.
Because our intervention focuses mostly on issues of a somewhat technical
nature, I would like to ask my associated, Carl Redhead, to address
5511 MR. CARL REDHEAD: Milestone and SHARE applications
contain some common findings and conclusions about the Toronto market in
5512 We both agree that there is a continued strong demand
for a station with an identifiable Black music sound. We also agree that there
is currently no station in the Toronto market operating in the Urban format. As
we indicated in Milestone's in-chief presentation on Wednesday, Toronto radio
listeners who are interested in Urban music currently have to tune in to WBLK-FM
from Buffalo. Therefore, licensing of a station operating in the Urban format
will repatriate significant tuning and advertising revenues. It will also
contribute, in a significant way, to the diversity of voices in the marketplace
and help develop Canadian talent.
5513 Beyond these general conclusions, however, Milestone
has significant concerns regarding the SHARE application, including reservations
relating to SHARE-FM's business plan. The business plan as filed is premised on
an assumption that the Commission should award SHARE a licence to carry on a
station which will either operate on 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz, or operate on a
significantly expanded 93.5 MHz frequency.
5514 By SHARE's own admission, the applicant does not
appear to be seriously interested in pursuing the so-called "nesting proposal"
involving 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz. Instead, SHARE is asking the Commission to grant
it an FM broadcasting licence for an expanded 93.5 MHz, for which no technical
brief has been submitted to Industry Canada.
5515 Moreover, SHARE-FM, in response to Commission
questioning on Thursday, admitted that although it had approached one of the
potentially affected radio broadcasting stations, that licensee had indicated it
was not prepared to waive the increased interference to its signal that would
result from the SHARE-FM's proposal.
5516 Milestone is at a loss to understand how SHARE-FM
could come to a competitive licensing hearing such as this, with an application
premised on the licensing of a frequency under circumstances not contemplated by
the Commission's call for applications.
5517 Milestone believes that it may be useful to review
some of the relevant considerations which led to this frequency becoming
available for use by commercial broadcasters.
5518 As the Commission will remember, Milestone Radio was
one of the participants in the consortium which funded the engineering proposal
by Stacey Lawson Associates Ltd. in 1996, that developed the so-called nesting
proposal involving 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz.
5519 The CBC's current 99.1 MHz frequency, awarded in
1997, was the last commercially viable frequency available in Toronto on the FM
band at that time. 93.5 MHz was not originally allocated for use in Toronto; it
was a Peterborough assignment. Its current proposed use in Toronto was
facilitated by the CBC who, at the 1997 CRTC hearings, undertook to do all in
its power to help make 93.5 MHz workable from Toronto, for a future licensee.
CBC also undertook to consult and work with all interested parties to this end.
The CBC kept its promise.
5520 The CBC has since vacated 93.5 in Peterborough and
has just received Commission approval to reduce the power level of 93.5 in
London, Ontario. These moves helped to enhance the coverage potential of 93.5 in
5521 Milestone, for its part, was very encouraged when the
field trials of 93.5 MHz, as conducted by the CBC and made available to
interested parties, proved that the coverage area of the frequency was
considerably greater than the initial engineering studies had suggested. When
those field test results were confirmed, Milestone founders decided that it
would not be necessary to proceed with the nesting proposal in order to serve
the Greater Toronto Area.
5522 As we indicated during the presentation of our
application on Wednesday, the 500 microvolt per metre contour of 93.5 MHz, with
effective radiated power of 298 watts broadcasting from the Bank of Montreal
tower, extends from Oakville in the West, North to Brampton, across Richmond
Hill to Markham, and South to Ajax and Pickering. The population within this
coverage area is more than 3.6 million.
5523 Milestone believes therefore that because of these
enhancements of signal coverage, 93.5 MHz, as technically approved by
Industry Canada, is a viable frequency. This assessment of the founding
shareholders of Milestone was confirmed this summer by our minority shareholder,
Standard Radio Inc., a long-standing broadcaster in this market.
5524 Madam Chairperson, in its presentation on Thursday,
SHARE-FM left the impression that CHAY-FM in Barrie on 93.1 MHz was the only
impairment to 93.5 in Toronto. This is not so. There are at least five other
short-spacing protections to be met in addition to CHAY-FM. They are: CFRU-FM,
Guelph; CFMU-FM, Hamilton; CBCL-FM, London; CBL-FM, Toronto; and WBLK-FM,
5525 In other words, Commissioners, the issue of further
expansion of the coverage area for 93.5 MHz in Toronto is not a simple
5526 For all these reasons, Milestone Radio does not
believe it is either fair or appropriate for one applicant in a highly
competitive licensing proceeding to put forth a business case which is premised
upon assumptions that are not available to other applicants.
5527 Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, we will
be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
5528 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and your
colleagues. We will see you again at Reply.
5529 MR. DENHAM JOLLY: Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, thank you. You will see us again.
5530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.
5531 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5532 The next applicant we will invite up will be Arnold
5533 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Auguste.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5534 MR. ARNOLD AUGUSTE: Good morning, Madam Chair,
Members of the Commission. Members of the staff, ladies and
5535 I feel pretty special appearing this morning --
everybody is attacking me!
5536 Over the past 22 years or so, I have always had the
high ground. I provided, and I stood by, a positive approach to everything I do.
I don't see any reason to change that this morning. I am going to continue to
take the high ground. I am not going to intervene against anyone of my
5537 The applications are before you, and I trust you to
do the right thing.
5538 Thank you.
5539 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
5540 Mr. Secretary.
5541 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5542 We will now hear Fairchild Radio Toronto
5543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Chan and
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5544 MR. JOE CHAN: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of
5545 We are pleased to have this opportunity to address
our concerns about some of the applications before you. Before we start our
presentation, I would like to quickly reintroduce ourselves.
5546 My name is Joe Chan, and I am General Manager of
Fairchild Media Group. On my left is Calvin Wong, General Manager of Fairchild
Radio, and on my right is Tracey Pearce, a partner at Goodman Phillips &
5547 MR. CALVIN WONG: Our concerns relate solely to the
potential for the introduction of additional programming directed to the Chinese
community and, as such, our comments are restricted to the applications by CHIN
and Infinity for new ethnic services.
5548 We want to state clearly that we are not opposed to
the licensing of another ethnic station in Toronto, subject to certain
conditions. As a result, we have no comment on the merits of either of the
proposals. Our opposition is based exclusively on our belief that the vibrancy
of existing broadcasters should be ensured before any new ethnic services are
5549 In our view, that means two things. First, we believe
that keeping CHKT on the air should take priority over the licensing of new
ethnic services. Secondly, we believe that any new service should not adversely
impact the ability of existing broadcasters to continue to serve their
audiences. As a result, we oppose the licensing of any new ethnic radio services
unless the introduction of this station does not result in additional
programming directed towards the Chinese community.
5550 MR. JOE CHAN: Chinese audiences in Toronto are
already well served. The Chinese community currently enjoys access to over 140
hours of programming in Cantonese and Mandarin every week. This is a significant
level of service, and CHKT provides 66 hours of such programming.
5551 Yet, as you heard last week, CHKT is not just a
Chinese broadcaster. We provide valuable programming to a total of 19 different
cultural groups in 20 different languages, including several communities without
any other media service in Toronto. Our ability to broadcast to this diverse
number of small ethnic communities, however, is supported almost exclusively by
advertising revenues derived from our Chinese-language programming.
5552 As the Commission also knows, CHKT has conditions of
licence restricting both the total amount and the timing of broadcasting aimed
at Chinese audiences. Those restrictions, which constrain CHKT's ability to
increase its advertising revenues, were adopted to protect the interests of
existing ethnic broadcasters and to ensure a balance among existing
5553 In summary, the Chinese community in Toronto is
already well served by existing media outlets and the Chinese advertising market
cannot support additional service to this community without a negative impact on
5554 CHKT, a new service which only achieved a positive
cashflow in this broadcast year, relies almost exclusively on Chinese
advertising dollars to support its service to other communities. As such, the
introduction of more programming directed to the Chinese community would have a
serious impact on our station.
5555 MR. CALVIN WONG: Based on our review of these
applications, it appears that neither CHIN nor Infinity proposes any programming
to the Chinese community on either new service. However, in our experience,
ethnic stations inevitably rely on the revenues generated by the largest ethnic
communities, one of which is Chinese, to support programming for smaller, newer
5556 We are concerned that a new operator may turn to
programming for Chinese audiences in order to help attract advertising revenues
and that, without conditions of licence to the contrary, it would have the
flexibility to do so.
5557 In the case of Infinity, if the applicant were
willing to accept a condition of licence prohibiting the broadcasting of
programming directed to the Chinese community, Fairchild would withdraw its
opposition. Based on the description of the service presented in the application
and at the hearing, it would appear that accepting such a condition of licence
would not be inconsistent or unduly limiting.
5558 MR. JOE CHAN: The CHIN application presents a greater
cause for concern. Although CHIN has also not proposed any programming to the
Chinese audience on the new station, its application notes that its bilingual
format would be particularly appealing to members of three different ethnic
groups, one of which is Chinese. We also note that this "bilingual" service
appears to include approximately 50 per cent third language programming.
Accordingly, we are concerned that programming to our core audience may form
part of this service in the near future.
5559 Moreover, if licensed, this station would provide
CHIN with its third undertaking in the market. Even if CHIN were to accept a
condition of licence prohibiting programming directed to the Chinese community
on its new AM, it would have considerable flexibility to increase Chinese
programming on its existing services. In fact, CHIN indicates in its application
that its existing AM will add five hours of Chinese programming each
5560 In light of these concerns, Fairchild opposes the
CHIN application unless CHIN accepts a condition of licence on the new service
prohibiting the inclusion of programming directed to the Chinese community, as
well as conditions of licence on its existing services which would ensure that
no additional programming for Chinese audiences was introduced.
5561 In summary, Fairchild respectfully submits that
preserving the viability of CHKT should take priority over the licensing of any
additional ethnic language service. Furthermore, should the Commission award one
of these frequencies to a new ethnic service, Fairchild believes that conditions
of licence prohibiting the broadcast of programming directed to the Chinese
audiences should be imposed. Moreover, should CHIN be licensed, we believe that
its existing services should also be subject to a condition of licence
restricting the introduction of any additional programming for the Chinese
5562 We thank you for your attention, and we would be
pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
5563 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chan and your
colleagues. We will see you again at Reply.
5564 Mr. Secretary, please.
5565 MS T. PEARCE: Madam Chair, if I could just add one
5566 It was simply to assure you that on Friday we heard a
number of comments regarding the lease, and it is our intention to address such
matters on Thursday in Reply.
5567 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
5568 Mr. Secretary.
5569 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5570 Just for the record, I would like to confirm that one
of our applicants, YTV Canada, has no statement to make in this particular
phase, but of course they will have an opportunity to come back in Phase
5571 I would now like to introduce our next applicant,
which is 914258 Ontario Limited to come forward and make its intervention. Thank
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5572 MR. NEETI P. RAY: Good morning, Madam Chair and
Members of the Panel.
5573 Madam Chair, approval of CHIN Radio's proposal for
740 AM will do very little to respond to the real needs and priorities that
currently exist within Greater Toronto's multicultural communities, nor will its
approval advance the stated goods within the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting
Policy with respect to the continuing need for broad based programming and
quality of service.
5574 Other than granting CHIN a chokehold on Greater
Toronto's ethnic broadcasting sector, approval of their application for 740 AM
will broaden rather than narrow the service disparity gap that currently exists
between Toronto's well served multicultural communities and those that are
unserved and badly underserved.
5575 Given the reality of the unanswered needs amongst
Toronto's unserved and underserved multicultural communities, now is not the
time and 740 is not the frequency to allow CHIN Radio to experiment with its
bilingual initiative on less than a handful of communities. To do so would be
tantamount to adding a third layer of icing to CHIN's already substantial AM/FM
undertakings while other multicultural communities, including the huge and
vastly underserved South Asian Community, lay starving at the outer fringes of
Toronto's ethnic broadcasting sector for even basic local third-language
5576 Madam Chair, in addition to carefully studying CHIN's
application for 740 AM, Infinity listened for nearly three hours last Friday as
the Panel questioned CHIN at length on all aspects of its application. Based on
their application and what was placed on the public record of this hearing,
Infinity heard nothing new that would justify CHIN occupying a third spot on the
dial of Toronto's ethnic radio spectrum.
5577 MS RENU RAY: Approval of CHIN's application for 740
AM would in essence be a departure from the ethnic broadcasting model that has
helped in addressing the needs of many of Greater Toronto's third language
communities, both large and small, over the past several years.
5578 In looking at the broader picture of Toronto's
multicultural composition, three major language groups -- Italian, Chinese
and South Asians -- dominate the marketplace in terms of the size of their
5579 With respect to the Italian community and the
prominence of its language on both CHIN-AM and CHIN-FM, it is the near
equivalence of the Italian community having two frequencies in the Toronto
5580 Similarly, the prominence of Chinese language
programming on Fairchild's AM 1430, as well as on other ethnic radio stations,
is again nearly equivalent to the Chinese community having two frequencies at
its disposal within the Greater Toronto market.
5581 By comparison, the huge and fastest growing of these
three major groups, the South Asian community, has nothing that would even
remotely compare to the level and quality of programming services enjoyed by the
Italian and Chinese communities.
5582 In light of this unacceptable service void within the
South Asian community, CHIN, to gain access to 740 AM, would be blatantly unfair
to the vastly underserved 500,000 South Asians living within the Greater Toronto
5583 MR. NEETY P. RAY: Madam Chair, what CHIN's proposal
for 740 AM fails to address in credible terms is how it would serve the
unfulfilled needs of the South Asian community with a few hours of bilingual
programming which has little, if any, relevance to a community which has more
than 20 different language groups within its complex and culturally diverse
5584 If CHIN's proposal for 740 AM, along with some
shuffling of its existing AM and FM undertakings, is the answer to the South
Asian community's many needs, then where was the support and expressions of
interest and passion from the community, other than that expressed by a member
of CHIN's panel?
5585 In assessing the value and extent of CHIN's 740 AM
proposal to serve the South Asian component of its overall plan, it is first
relevant to examine what is currently available.
5586 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we would first note
that there appears to be some confusion, be it real or manufactured, that
because there are currently some 76.5 hours of Punjabi programming available on
existing ethnic stations, the needs of a huge and culturally diverse South Asian
community are being well served.
5587 Madam Chair, this is simply not the case. Punjabi is
produced by and caters mainly to those who in large part emigrated from the
Punjab state of India, whereas the vast majority of South Asians within the
Greater Toronto/Southern Ontario Region do not relate to, speak, or understand
5588 The only language from amongst the more than 20
spoken within the South Asian community that is universally understood and
respected and able to bring all of the diverse cultural elements of the broader
community together as one is Hindustani language. As the lingua franca of South
Asian, Hindustani is to South Asians what English is to the rest of the
5589 Hence, beyond the Punjabi language component, which
is relevant to about one-fifth, or 20 per cent, of the overall South Asian
population of 500,000, there are 13 hours of Hindi programming on CHIN-FM and
one hour of Hindi programming on CJMR-AM. Of the 13 hours of Hindi on CHIN-FM,
about half is already in English.
5590 Further, there are currently 2.5 hours of Tamil
programming on CHIN-AM and one hour on CJMR-AM.
5591 Finally, there is one hour of Bengali programming on
CHIN-AM and 30 minutes on CJMR-AM.
5592 Madam Chair, by my count there is a total of 19 hours
(14 Hindi, 3.5 Tamil and 1.5 Bengali) currently serving the 500,000 South Asians
within the Greater Toronto area.
5593 With respect to the 76.5 hours of Punjabi, it would
be relevant to say that Punjabi meets the needs of the South Asian population as
it would be to say that the 18 hours of Mandarin programming in the market
served the needs of Toronto's Chinese community.
5594 Madam Chair, the bottom line is that CHIN's 740 AM
proposal, even with its sister AM-FM stations, does not even begin to address
the needs of the South Asian community.
5595 MS RENU RAY: Turning to other aspects of CHIN's
bilingual proposal, as a member of the Toronto ethnic broadcast community over
the past decade, I can tell you that bilingualism is nothing unique, or new, or
experimental to CHIN Radio. They have had an English component to their South
Asian and other language programs, as a natural progression, over a considerable
period of time.
5596 While more English language programming may be
appropriate for the Italian community, which has a 27 per cent first generation
factor, such is not the case for South Asians, at 72 per cent, and other
Asian-Middle Eastern countries, at 83 per cent, as noted in the Conquest survey
conducted for CHIN.
5597 Infinity disagrees with CHIN's position that second
and third generation immigrant populations are not comfortable in their native
tongue but are comfortable with their culture and practice it at
5598 From our perspective, the culture of any community is
closely woven into the language of that community or language group; hence,
cutting off that language from the radio is an invalidation of that culture and,
therefore, is a disservice to the community. It's like saying you can exist as a
Czech or a Spanish or a Filipino, minus your language.
5599 A member of the CHIN presentation panel said that the
English language links people in India and that the answer to the multicultural
policy in Canada lies in the English language.
5600 Not surprisingly, we disagree. First of all, it is
only approximately 10 per cent of the people in India that are conversant in
English as a result of the McCauley system of education imposed by the then
British regime, which did not filter down to the masses. To further illustrate,
most proceedings in the Indian Parliament are conducted in Hindustani, and the
National Anthem of that country is in Hindustani.
5601 In the multicultural society of Canada, where the
official policy celebrates diversity and encourages preservation of cultural
heritage by different communities, the mandate of ethnic radio programming
cannot be confined to mere dissemination of information, analysis and
entertainment. Its central thrust and fundamental rationale must rest upon the
ethnic community's cultural preservation in all its various forms. In this
process, the preservation of one's language and its literary traditions must be
accorded unquestioned centrality. If heritage language is not preserved,
minority groups will be swallowed up by larger groups. Infinity proposes to
serve 21 such groups.
5602 A perfect example is CRTC's own policy, requiring the
reflection of the multicultural and multilingual diversity of Canada.
5603 While elaborating on their position regarding the
bilingual programming, CHIN's panel member said: "We are not dealing with new
immigrants any more". This attitude is insensitive to those who have arrived in
the past ten years, when the wave of immigrants from South Asia was very
5604 Madam Chair, 70,000 new immigrants are still arriving
from around the world. The Indian sub-continent remains one of the major sources
of the immigration to Canada. In recent years, the rate of immigrants arriving
from South Asia has increased compared to the Chinese, if you compare the rate
at which Chinese immigrants arrived in Canada after the 1991 census.
5605 MR. NEETI P. RAY: We further noted that during the
question and answer segment of their appearance, CHIN stated that the time slots
vacated on 1540, after they move programs to 740 AM, would be filled by
Portuguese, Chinese, Polish, Jewish and Caribbean programming.
5606 This again points to the fact that CHIN is mainly
playing a shuffle-board with existing well served language groups like the
Portuguese, Polish, and Chinese communities, rather than reaching out and
extending service to those multicultural communities who need it
5607 Infinity also noted that in response to the
Commission question as to the impact that a new ethnic player licensed for a 740
AM would have on CHIN's existing operations, Mr. Lombardi stated, "We will
5608 MS RENU RAY: We also noted that in response to a
Commission question as to how meaningful a 30 minute time slot would be to a
community, Mr. Lombardi agreed that while 30 minutes was perhaps better
than no minutes, there was a limited amount that could be achieved in a
programming context, with such a limited period. He also acknowledged that a
two-hour programming slot would afford a community the opportunity to achieve a
meaningful and balanced programming mix.
5609 At one point, Mr. Lombardi said that he was concerned
about the timing of the South Asian programming in the 'other
5610 Infinity would point out that we have intentionally
scheduled our Hindustani language programming to start at 9:00 p.m., as CHIN's
Hindi programs start at 7:30 p.m. and ends at 9:30 p.m.
5611 We would also point out that our former 'Radio India'
program used to start at 7:00 p.m. each evening, eclipsing their entire South
Asian programming each day. They still survived.
5612 MR. NEETI P. RAY: CHIN further noted that the
licensing of the 'other ethnic applicant' for 740 AM would result in a raid on
our people, as had occurred in the past.
5613 Should Infinity be licensed for 740 AM, we will seek
out and train our own people from within the 22 communities we propose to serve.
Having said that, we would add that CHIN losing employees to other media outlets
is hardly unique, given that broadcasters for decades have moved back and forth
between stations within the same market and across Canada.
5614 In the final analysis, Madam Chair, it is Infinity's
view that while approval of CHIN's proposal for 740 AM will further enhance its
ownership situation in the Toronto market and enable them to add yet another
layer of service to the Italian community, the benefits to the broader
multicultural community of Greater Toronto and to the Broadcasting System are
just not there. As such, CHIN's application should be denied.
5615 Approval of 740 AM should fall to a new ethnic
broadcaster, who will bring added diversity to Toronto's ethnic broadcasting
5616 In the final analysis once again, competition is
healthy and stimulates other broadcasting undertakings onto providing more and
better service. We would refer the Commission to its decision CRTC 96-659
relative to Fairchild's entry into the Toronto ethnic market.
5617 The decision stated in part:
"The Commission also expects that the other ethnic broadcasters will be able
to respond to the new service through their individual efforts either to enhance
the effectiveness of their existing programming or to alter their programming
and seek out revenues in other ethnic
5618 Thank you. If you have any questions, we will be
willing to answer.
5619 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will see you
again at Reply.
5620 Mr. Secretary, please.
5621 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5622 We have one more applicant to invite forward during
this phase. It is Radio 1540 Limited.
--- Pause / Pause
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5623 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Good morning, Madam Chair. I would
like to just start by correcting the record to follow up on a question raised by
Commissioner Cardozo on Friday, during CHIN's Phase I presentation, and that is
with respect to the Canadian talent development benefits.
5624 Commissioner Cardozo raised the matter of our direct
benefits and our addition on that amount. In fact, to clarify, our direct
Canadian talent benefits add to a total of $46,600, in addition to our $50,000
in indirect benefits. That is a total of $96,600. I just wanted to raise that
right upfront, to clarify, in response to your question.
5625 Thank you.
5626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5627 Mr. Lombardi.
5628 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Good day, Madam Chair, Members of
the Commission. It's nice to see you again this morning.
5629 My name is Lenny Lombardi, Executive Vice President
of CHIN Radio.
5630 Before we begin our presentation this morning, I
would like to first introduce our members of the panel.
5631 To my left, my dad, President and CEO of CHIN Radio,
Mr. Johnny Lombardi. To his left, Mr. Bob Culliton, Vice-President and General
Manager of CHIN Radio. And to my right, Stephen Zolf, our legal counsel, from
5632 CHIN already filed detailed interventions in the
written phase of the proceeding in opposition to the other applications for 740
5633 The purpose of our appearance today is to highlight
our specific concerns relating to two applications, by Infinity Broadcasting and
5634 First, with respect to Infinity's application, in our
submission there are serious deficiencies in Infinity's financial model that
will make it difficult for this stand-alone ethnic applicant to provide a viable
service that adds diversity to the ethnic market.
5635 Of most concern is Infinity's reliance on its South
Asian programming as the main 'economic engine' to support its business plan.
Infinity confirmed during its presentation to the Commission last week that its
proposed Hindustani programming will cross-subsidize all of its 'underserved'
programming aimed at approximately 20 communities. In total, as much as 41 hours
of Hindustani programming will be aired during the broadcast week to provide
sufficient revenues to cover the remaining two-thirds of its proposed
5636 In our submission, this economic cross-subsidy scheme
will, in reality, be difficult to sustain, for one key reason: Infinity has
overstated the ability of its Hindustani block to earn enough revenue to support
the remainder of its schedule.
5637 This overly optimistic business plan is reflected in
Infinity's proposed rate cards for Hindustani programming. To give the
Commission some context on this issue, we note that when this applicant aired
identical programming less than three years ago on a southwestern Ontario
station, pursuant to brokered time arrangements with CKTB, its actual spot rate
garnered approximately $7.00 -- less than one-fifth of the amount that
Infinity has projected for its proposed 740 service.
5638 Our own experience for South Asian programming in the
Toronto market suggests that more realistic rate cards for this type of
programming range between $10 to $18 a spot, far less than the rates underlying
Infinity's business plan.
5639 To illustrate just how unrealistic Infinity's current
business plan is, when more realistic advertising revenues are included, and
when other calculation errors are corrected, its sell-out rate would have to
increase from 40 per cent, as per its current assumptions, to close to 100 per
cent to meet its revenue projections. Moreover, it would realize cumulative
losses of over $1 million over the first four years of its operation, rather
than positive net earnings as per its projections.
5640 Finally, we note that Infinity has completely ignored
the impact of adding over 40 new hours of South Asian programming into the
Toronto ethnic radio market. This market already currently offers over 120 hours
of South Asian programming during the broadcast week. Infinity's new programming
would represent an increase of over 30 per cent of Asian programming.
5641 Moreover, when the additional 41 hours that Infinity
is proposing between midnight and 6:00 a.m. is factored in, the level of South
Asian programming in the market would increase by over 80 hours, to a total of
200 hours weekly.
5642 In our submission, given Infinity's weak business
plan and the fact that it will have to realize sell-out rates at near maximum
levels, it would inevitably have to add even more South Asian programming to its
schedule to meet its revenue projections. This would further the negative impact
on existing ethnic broadcasters who air South Asian programming in the
5643 In summary, Infinity's business plan will, in our
submission, make it difficult for this applicant to offer a viable undertaking
that will achieve the objectives set out in subparagraph 3(1)(d)(iii) of the
5644 Next, I would ask Stephen Zolf to address the
5645 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: CHIN submits that Fairchild's
application is not in the public interest, for the following reasons.
5646 First, Fairchild itself conceded in its application
and during its appearance before the Commission last week that its preference is
to be licensed for the 93.5 FM frequency.
5647 Second, its application is based solely on the status
of its lease arrangements for its transmitter site on Toronto Island, which it
claims are 'uncertain'. Yet, inexplicably, Fairchild could not provide any clear
evidence, neither in its written filings nor during its presentation to the
Commission, that the City of Toronto will not consider entering into a new lease
upon expiration of the Fairchild lease in 2001.
5648 As we reiterated during our oral presentation, CHIN
faces the identical set of circumstances to that of Fairchild with respect to
the status of our transmitter site. Of course, CHIN has had discussions with the
City. In that regard, the City has not in any way indicated that it will not
enter into new lease arrangements once CHIN's current lease expires next
5649 It is CHIN's understanding that the City of Toronto
has, for years, not included automatic renewals in any of its property leases on
Toronto's Harbourfront and Island regions. Of course, this does not mean that
new leases, with new terms and conditions, will not be negotiated upon the
expiration of existing leases.
5650 We submit that Fairchild is placing too much emphasis
on the fact that its lease expressly provides for no renewal right. It is
erroneous to conclude that this means it has no further options. There is no
evidence in this proceeding to support such a conclusion.
5651 Even if Fairchild could provide clear and unequivocal
evidence that the City of Toronto will indeed refuse to negotiate new lease
arrangements next year CHIN would, of course, face identical circumstances.
There is no reason why the City would treat CHIN any differently.
5652 Of course, all of this is hypothetical. We submit
that it is extremely unlikely that the City would refuse to attempt to reach
mutually acceptable arrangements, particularly if there are, as Fairchild
suggests, no other alternative sites for its transmitter.
5653 In any case, as Fairchild has not established that it
will in fact lose its transmitter site next year, its application here is, at
best, premature. On the evidence on the record of this proceeding, we submit it
would be difficult for the Commission to conclude that Fairchild has no other
5654 Until these alternatives are exhausted, we submit
that the Commission is not the right forum for Fairchild to be seeking a remedy.
The appropriate forum for Fairchild is the City of Toronto. CHIN will continue
to pursue this avenue, in the ordinary course, until suitable arrangements can
be found with respect to its current transmitter site on the Island.
5655 Finally, when Fairchild acquired CHKT from Telemedia
in 1995, it surely must have completed the standard "due diligence" before
electing to purchase the station. This diligence would obviously have included
examining the real property rights for the transmitter site, which would have
revealed that there was no right of renewal in its transmitter site lease,
therefore necessitating a new lease in 2001 or current reasonable
5656 We cannot help but conclude that Fairchild is
attempting to export what is essentially a commercial problem to this public
proceeding. We submit that it would not be in the interest of the Canadian
broadcasting system to grant Fairchild's application, in these
5657 Finally, we note that the applicant expressly states
that approval of its application would not result in any change to its existing
operations, leaving the program schedule, commitments and contributions
unchanged. In fact, Fairchild clearly conceded in its application and during its
presentation last week that the signal coverage of 740 is far greater than the
contour needed to serve its targeted audience. Therefore, granting its
application for 740 would not maximize the positive externalities that are
inherent in such a robust signal.
5658 In our submission, it would not be in the public
interest to allow Fairchild to use the regulatory process in this manner. We
therefore submit that its application should be denied.
5659 We appreciate the opportunity to submit these
comments, and would welcome questions.
5660 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi and
5661 MR. RHÉAUME: Madam Chair, could I have one
5662 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
5663 LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr. Zolf, at page 6 of the
presentation, could you clarify the statement:
"Of course, CHIN has had discussions with the City..." regarding lease
5664 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Yes, counsel.
5665 I think I would ask Lenny, as he has had those
discussions, I think it would be best that Lenny Lombardi answer that
5666 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, we have been in discussions
with the City of Toronto approximately four months ago, discussed the options
for our transmitter site on the Island, and in a frank exchange in that
discussion we were not given any indication that reasonable terms could not be
arrived at some future date.
5667 LEGAL COUNSEL: Thank you.
5668 Thank you, Madam Chair.
5669 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lombardi, do you have any
written confirmation of that position by the City to file with us?
5670 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: At the present time, no, Madam
5671 THE CHAIRPERSON: You understand of course that the
situation here is, if you get 740 you have three frequencies.
5672 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, I realize that.
5673 THE CHAIRPERSON: So any problem on the Island
decreases in importance.
5674 For the other applicant, depending on exactly what
the situation is, it means no frequency. So, to clarify this matter to our
satisfaction, evidence will have to be produced to show that indeed you have
been given some encouragement or assurances that there would be no problem,
because right now what we have from the City is not as positive as what you put
forward, and the result for you of course is not going to be as dramatic if you
were granted 740.
5675 So in analysing how we assign the frequencies that
are before us, it will be important to have something of a clearer import than
what we are getting, to sort out what the situation will be in 2001 on the
Island. Anyway, we will see you again at Reply.
5676 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam
5677 THE CHAIRPERSON: Unless you have something to
5678 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I cannot really elaborate any
more than I did on Friday. I believe that this is a people issue with respect to
the concerns on the Island, and I am sure that the City Fathers and Mothers will
be able to arrive --
5679 THE CHAIRPERSON: Including those on the
5680 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Including those on the
5681 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I do not quite agree that this a
City problem. It is a problem for us.
5682 I think when we are looking at the public interest,
it is important to have some clarity as to whether a broadcaster who is offering
diversity will have no frequency and so on.
5683 Your comments on that, in light of the fact that you
are neighbours and, as you keep saying, you will be treated in the same way,
would be helpful if there was more clarity to them, and it does have an impact
on how we sort all this out. It has an impact on your application as
5684 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Madam Chair, if I may just add to
5685 We do acknowledge your concerns. I guess our position
is, we reiterate it, is that while it should be a concern of the Commission, we
feel Commission action at this stage is premature and potentially would of
course have an outcome on commercial arrangements that have yet to be addressed.
So the Commission's action at this stage would obviously have some consequences
for really private arrangements that may --
5686 THE CHAIRPERSON: Either your clients or the other
applicant. So to say that it is premature, it would be better if we were more in
a position to know exactly what the score is, because if this is the last, last,
last, last frequency in Toronto, prematurity until digital is possible is hardly
an answer to trying to sort out what is in the public interest in the Toronto
5687 But you do not have to solve Fairchild's problems.
But you are also asking for the same frequency that they are. They are asking
for it for a reason that you say is not valid, so it is important that we have
as much clarity as possible by either party, because it affects both of you, or
may affect both of you, when we sort out what we do with the competing
applications in this hearing. It is your choice, of course, but I think it is
important for us to tell you what our concerns are.
5688 We will see you again at Reply. Thank you very
5689 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam
5690 THE CHAIRPERSON: This completes Phase II of the
5691 After the break, we will proceed with Phase III, the
hearing of interventions in the various applications heard.
5692 The first three parties that we will hear in
interventions have filed interventions in more than one application, that is,
CIRPA, CIRV and Dufferin. We will hear each of these intervenors
5693 We will then proceed to hear interventions in the
order in which the application in which they were filed was heard, so that is
beginning with supporting interventions and CHWO, I believe.
5694 We will be hearing several supporting interventions
throughout this week. We may not have any questions for intervenors, as we want
to hear as many intervenors as possible in the time available. This should not
be seen as a lack of interest on our part.
5695 Moreover, I remind you that each intervention will be
transcribed and will form part of the record in addition to the written
5696 The Hearing Secretary, on our return, will address
the procedure that will be followed.
5697 So we will take a 15-minute break, and be back at ten
to eleven. Nous reprendrons à 11 heures moins dix.
--- Recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035
--- Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050
5698 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur le Secrétaire, s'il vous
5699 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5700 We are now entering Phase III of our competitive
process, whereby we call other interested parties to come forward and present
5701 As you mentioned earlier, it is our intention to call
forward, first of all this morning, interventions by CIRPA, CIRC Radio, Dufferin
Communications. Then we will be starting, probably during the course of the next
few days, a number of interventions from various parties in support of our
5702 As you mentioned before the break, these people will
be called in the same order that we called the applicants that they support last
week. So we would be starting with the intervenors supporting CHWO, then Mr.
Farmer, and so on. And we anticipate that this could take the next two or three
days. We will see how it goes.
5703 Having said that, and reminding intervenors that we
are basically allowing ten minutes for them to present their interventions, I
would like to introduce an intervention by Canadian Independent Record
Production Association, with Mr. Brian Chater.
5704 Mr. Chater, welcome.
5705 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Thank you.
5706 Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners.
5707 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5708 MR. BRIAN CHATER: My name is Brian Chater, the
President of CIRPA. This morning I would like to take the opportunity to expand
upon CIRPA's written intervention to the various applications for the available
radio frequencies in Toronto.
5709 Obviously in a 10-minute presentation, given the
diverse, in all sense of the word, applications, I can only give you an overview
of the key issues that CIRPA feels should be considered by the Commission in its
deliberations. Naturally we would be happy to expand on any particular point
and, should you have questions that arise from my presentation, I would be happy
to give you a more detailed answer on any particular issue.
5710 As you know from seeing media reports, in the first
few weeks of this year the record business has undergone major structural
changes, which will clearly have an impact on the music industry worldwide but
which also will have major implications for the future of CIRPA's members.
Coupled with these business decisions and of course the many and varied
technological advances that will also have a major impact both on the music
business as well as that of broadcasting over the next decade.
5711 I have just returned from a major music trade fair
that takes place annually in France, and this year attendance reached new
heights with over 12,000 participants from more than 60 countries around the
world. It is here that one can really see the tremendous competition that
Canadians face in the marketing, merchandising and selling of their products on
5712 While I am happy to say that Canada Stand was
exceptionally busy throughout the week of the fair and Canadian music is both
well regarded and well accepted around the world, there is little room for
complacency. The competition and advances in technology will require that we be
constantly innovative and vigilant in both protecting and expanding our position
in world markets. A key part of this strategy must be ensuring that new product
from Canadian creators receive as much support as possible in their home market,
to enable them to take on an ever more competitive world.
5713 While it is clearly a goal of Canada's government
policy that Canadians must be able to hear and appreciate other Canadians, and
this is a laudable policy, we must also not forget that while there is clearly a
cultural dividend for this policy there is also an economic dividend that is of
great benefit to Canada. Indeed, in a recent report in Billboard Magazine it was
reported that intellectual property in all its forms has become the number one
export industry in the United States, with music alone earning in excess of $10
billion (US) annually from abroad which flows back to the United States'
5714 I could continue on this major and important theme
for a great deal longer than the ten minutes allotted to us but, having
endeavoured, even if briefly, to place these hearings in context from the point
of view of CIRPA, I will now like to turn to a few specific policy concerns and
suggestions that CIRPA has regarding the current process.
5715 We would like to highlight and expand upon points
from our written intervention plus comment briefly on some of the issues raised
in various applications.
5716 With regard to the various frequencies available, we
would reiterate our view that these frequencies should be licensed separately.
However, after some thought on the matter, we feel additionally that the
Commission should consider not licensing 106.3 FM at all for the present. It has
been said many times, and we feel it bears repeating, that radio licences are
valuable entities that are, by the current licensing definition, a restricted
resource, a resource that is owned by the Canadian people. It is our view that
radio frequencies should be allocated so as to serve the Canadian public in the
best possible way.
5717 As we stated in our written interventions, these
frequencies have great value to potential licensees in the upcoming digital
world, particularly given the current Commission position that only those who
currently have licences will be able to broadcast digitally.
5718 Therefore, while CIRPA feels that 740 AM and
93.5 FM should be licensed, in our view the new frequency of 106.3 FM requires
further policy discussion before any licensing of this admittedly poor, in
today's world, frequency occurs.
5719 To turn briefly to the five principles we enunciated
in our intervention, the first four would seem to be clear and straightforward.
However, we would like to discuss the fifth point, the targeting of CTD funding
initiatives, in more detail.
5720 There are several proposals common to many
applications as well as a concept contained in several applications that CIRPA
feels should be discussed and, we would suggest, considered by the Commission in
5721 In these applications there are proposals for talent
searches, CD compilations, talent showcases and web sites. All have appeared in
previous applications over the years, with the exception of web sites. We would
reiterate our previous comments that, in our view, the Canadian music industry
conducts talent searches every day. It is a basic building block of the record
industry and, given the intensely competitive nature of the industry today, we
would think it unlikely that any artist of value is not widely known by the
music industry as a potential signee.
5722 The same applies to CD compilations and the new
artist featured therein, which additionally suffer from the disadvantage of the
fact that, with the identification included by the station putting it out, it
guarantees their competitors will not play it no matter how good it is. Talent
showcases, if well organized and targeted for specific results, in certain
limited circumstances can be helpful. This same reasoning would apply to web
5723 However, while there would certainly be some value in
a specific genre web site, in our view a better and far more beneficial approach
for everyone is to include the various proposals as part of an independent music
industry web site. This would then attract a much bigger audience, which
therefore would be a much better sales tool, and would attract a variety of
sponsors while at the same time sill having a targeted and detailed list of
applications, information and e-commerce opportunities for any given genre of
music as part of the whole.
5724 A final philosophical and practical concern with some
applications from CIRPA's point of view is the way monies promised are targeted
towards a variety of initiatives not involving music for which substantial
funding is planned, while only a small proportion, often the lowest mandated
amount, falls under the CTD regulations published by the Commission for music.
CIRPA finds this somewhat incongruous, to say the least, given that the
applicants will be playing music for well over 50 per cent of their total
broadcasting time and, in some cases, as much as 80 per cent of broadcasting
5725 In the view of CIRPA, this only reinforces the
generally held view by users that music is worth little and certainly not nearly
as much as other activities which go towards programming a station. In CIRPA's
view, this is both damaging and fallacious given the fact that music contributes
the majority of programming on most radio stations and is a substantial factor
in attracting audiences.
5726 CIRPA would suggest that CTD promises from several
applicants should reflect the use and value of music to their overall
programming equation and the percentage of CTD monies promised to music users
should reflect their use of music programming in approximate percentage
5727 To make a final point on this issue, CIRPA also feels
that the most effective and efficient use for these promises is to place the
monies with FACTOR, an organization that has a proven track record in utilizing
dollars in the best possible way to help the development of a viable Canadian
music sector and which is overseen by a board consisting of music industry and
broadcast industry personnel.
5728 The Commission will also have noted a recent change
in approach from CIRPA in that we have suggested that a licence be granted in
this round to a black/urban station. Our reasoning here is simply that this is a
vibrant, rapidly growing music community which already has had considerable
success, even given the lack of a broadcast outlet in Toronto.
5729 While there is currently no Toronto outlet, this
opens the door to stations such as WBLK in Buffalo to come into the Toronto
market. In our view, the community deserves to have a station, and we are
confident that such a station will be of substantial benefit to all of Toronto
and make a major contribution to the cultural and economic fabric of the
5730 The final point from our written intervention we
would like to reiterate is the matter of programming diversity. We raised this
matter using two applicants, Rainbow Radio and YTV Radio, as examples and we
would like to return to this again.
5731 While we stand to be corrected, it appears to CIRPA
that, while in both cases the applicants will be targeting a specific audience
segment with regard to sales, the music being used to reach their target
audiences will be pretty mainstream and contain much that is already heard on
Toronto radio today.
5732 There is a plethora of good Canadian children's music
available, and this is music which has had considerable airplay in the past on
American stations programming to children. However, there appears to be little
projected use of Canadian children's music by the proposed station, given our
reading of the application, and much use of current Top 40 music. The same
critique would apply to the Rainbow Radio application. As far as CIRPA can see
from reviewing it, it would be playing, if not Top 40, then much commonly heard
5733 Given the paucity of frequencies available, it is the
view of CIRPA that musical diversity is an extremely important part of the
licensing policy issues that face the Commission, and we would suggest a major
public policy issue that we would appreciate the Commission
5734 We trust that the foregoing has been helpful, and we
look forward to the Commission's questions.
5735 Thank you very much.
5736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chater.
5737 Mr. Chater, do you have your written intervention
5738 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Yes, I do.
5739 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions of
5740 I would like you to help me sort out whether I am
wrong in seeing a contradiction between one of your principles, the principle
that we should follow in licensing is that new and diverse formats that are
currently not available in the market be licensed, with the comment on the next
page, that the Commission should consider licensing more general formats, rather
than those that would be of a more specialist nature, and expanding genres that
are currently not available in the CMA.
5741 If you want you want is diversity in a market that
already has some 20 commercial stations, is that not contradictory with saying
don't give it to niche formats -- for example, some of the ethnic
5742 I can see where your argument is, that Rainbow and
the YTV applications, in your view, would not be as distinct as the applicants
have put forward, but isn't there a contradiction between saying, not niche such
as, let's say, an ethnic broadcaster or something that is not available, and
make sure you provide diversity.
5743 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I don't think so. Perhaps I could
have been clearer, that we are looking for different musical formats in all
genres, first of all, diverse formats.
5744 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were looking at musical
5745 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Musical formats, yes, not --
obviously we have a certain self-interest in this. Far be it for me to say that
diverse music is good in a particular format. Musical diversity is
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5746 THE CHAIRPERSON: ... and that would be in addition.
The same could be said of Christian music, could it not?
5747 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Absolutely. Absolutely.
5748 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you accept that that would be a
niche. But you are focusing on music more than --
5749 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I mean we look, in basic terms, to
find outlets for music which perhaps is not as widely available as it might be
in the marketplace.
5750 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand.
5751 Another principle is that you don't think that the
three frequencies -- I gather this morning that, in your view, the 106.3 or
5, I guess, they are mutually exclusive, should not be licensed, and that the
other two should be licensed separately.
5752 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Absolutely.
5753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can we read from that, then, that
you are opposing the applicants who will acquire two?
5754 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Only in the sense that we would
like further looking at this. "Opposing" is perhaps a strong word. It is just
that 106.3 or 106.5, our understanding is that that frequency is a very
diminished frequency in today's world. It would have a limited viability in the
5755 We would like to just look at that. This came out of
further discussions subsequent to our filing. We think maybe this is something
the Commission could look at in the context of the bigger picture, the
5756 I guess you could say we actively oppose them. We
thought it should be looked at. And you may well decide that you feel, no, we
are totally wrong, we are going to license it. We are just maybe flagging it, if
you like, as a possible approach.
5757 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your comment is more related to
your doubt about what use can be made of 106, not generated by a desire to have
the last, last, last frequency left available.
5758 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I am sure, as you know, it would
seem to me there is always a last, last frequency. Whenever you turn around, it
always appears to be. I think I have heard this since 1986, "This is the very
last frequency". And it seems we are still talking about the very last
5759 Of course, in the upcoming world of digital, the
picture will obviously change very rapidly.
5760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chater, and I
apologize. My transmitter developed problems over the weekend.
5761 MR. BRIAN CHATER: My transmitter did the same
5762 Thank you.
5763 THE CHAIRPERSON: I may have to reserve 106 for
--- Laughter / Rires
5764 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.
5765 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5766 We will now hear the intervention from CIRC Radio
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5767 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members
of the Commission.
5768 Before beginning, my name is Frank Alvarez. I am the
President of CIRC Radio Inc., Licensee of CIRV FM, a multicultural radio station
serving Greater Toronto.
5769 To my right, our legal counsel, Gary Jessop, and to
my left, our vice-president and director of programming, Alberta Elmir, and my
assistant, Maggie Medeiros. As well, sitting behind us is Bond Falcon(ph), from
the Receivables, Sales and Promotion Department of CIRV Radio.
5770 CIRV is here today to express its opposition to the
following two applications currently being considered in this hearing: (A)
application by Radio 1540 Limited, and (B) application by Infinity
5771 I will start off our comments by first dealing with
why we intervened in opposition to the application of Radio 1540, who is seeking
a licence to operate a third multi-cultural station in Toronto on 740 AM. In
CIRV's view, if this application is approved, it will have serious negative
consequences on the currently existing ethnic broadcasters, including CIRV
5772 We do not feel that the Greater Toronto market can
support another ethnic station. In addition to CIRV, Greater Toronto already has
five other full ethnic stations. Two of these already existing stations are
owned by the Applicant. Greater Toronto is also served by a number of SCMO
broadcasting services, serving particular languages, as well as daily television
programs, in languages like Italian, South Asian, East Asian, Chinese, Spanish,
Greek, etc. This does not count weekend programs available on mainstream
television serving these and other groups and languages. Therefore, Greater
Toronto's ethnic communities are already well served.
5773 The Applicant itself has admitted on a number of
times in this proceeding that a new ethnic radio station in Greater Toronto will
harm existing ethnic stations. The Applicant then ignores its own opinion and
argues that licensing to a third station will not harm existing ethnic
5774 Also on its intervention, the Applicant states that
it is opposed to the Infinity application due to its programming duplicating,
programming already aired on CHIN's other two stations. Again the Applicant
ignores this effect as it is planning to offer a significant amount of
Portuguese and Spanish programming.
5775 This programming, and others proposed to be offered
by the Applicant, by the Applicant's own definition, will be duplicating
programming already being aired by CIRV and other existing ethnic broadcasters
in Toronto. Would this not harm existing broadcasters in the same manner as
Infinity's proposed service will harm CHIN's existing services? We do think
5776 If licensed, the Applicant's combined operations will
result in significant increases in ethnic programming geared to the Spanish,
Portuguese and South Asian communities. And this only considers programming
during the 6:00 a.m. to 12 midnight period and not the potential for programming
during the overnight period, nor does it foresee the real possibility of program
shifting that may result on the Applicant's other licensed ethnic station
5777 As the Commission is aware, a radio station is free
to change its programming lineup as it sees fit without further Commission
approval. As already indicated by the Applicant, there will be programming
shifting between 1540 and 740 AM. The Applicant states that it will not be
shifting any programming on its FM service, but there is no guarantee that this
will remain the case once the new service is licensed. Will the Applicant accept
a condition of licence to this effect?
5778 On the question of its bilingual format, the Conquest
study commissioned by the Applicant indicated that the Italian community, its
largest audience, will be less attracted to bilingual programming than other
ethnic groups. However, the Applicant discounts its own study, both in
statements in its application and in paragraph 41 to the Reply to our
intervention, by stating that, notwithstanding, the study must be without merit
as its own experience with its core audience is telling it that Italians will
listen to the bilingual programming.
5779 One has to question that if the Conquest study is
wrong in this respect, how valid is the rest of the study? Is the application to
be supported by the study or the Applicant's own experiences? Perhaps the
Applicant would be willing to concede that, based upon our years of experience
serving the Portuguese community, we have a different perspective as to the
effect that his new proposed station will have on our Portuguese programming
5780 As the Commission is aware, Portuguese programming
allows CIRV to meet its commitments to the other groups it serves. Currently,
CIRV is broadcasting 63 hours of Portuguese per broadcast week. If licensed, the
Applicant is proposed an additional 16.5 hours per broadcasting week of
Portuguese programming, which increase represents 26 per cent of CIRV's
Portuguese programming. This large percentage cannot be funded solely by
increases in advertising budgets, and it must come from existing sources,
stripping away needed advertising revenue from existing ethnic broadcasters,
5781 In its reply to our intervention, the Applicant
completely ignores the fact that it is not only overlapping programming which
can harm an existing ethnic station, but also a large amount of programming in
languages common between competitive stations. There are only so many
advertising dollars available. The Applicant has failed to establish that
businesses advertising on its proposed new service will represent incremental
dollars. By merely stating that it will be so does not make it true.
5782 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention,
questions why we are not currently offering Portuguese programming during the
7:00 to 9:30 morning period. The reason is quite simple: CIRV was the first FM
Toronto radio station to provide Chinese programming during drive time morning
hours. CIRV supported Chinese programming through Portuguese programming. CIRV
has made a commitment to serve the Chinese community at the time, and we like to
stand by our commitment. This is why we are not offering Portuguese programming
during this period.
5783 Clearly the adverse effect, as predicted by the
Applicant itself, will be equally true on the existing ethnic broadcasters
regardless of who is granted the licence for a new ethnic station.
5784 If licensed, the Applicant will own 3 out of 7 ethnic
stations and in effect will control over 42 per cent of the ethnic radio station
market in Toronto. Put another way, if licensed, the Applicant will have 50 per
cent more programming hours or 378 hours a week (126 times three stations). This
is significant, especially for a station such as CIRV, which only has 126 hours
a week. As well, the effect of this much market power is further enhanced when
the Applicant's stations, including the proposed new station, all have much
greater coverage than CIRV.
5785 The Applicant itself states in its application that
by licensing to a third station, the Applicant will be able to achieve economies
of scale due to spreading its costs and programming over three stations instead
of two. Therefore, the Applicant will be in a much better position to compete
against other stations by better being able to lower its costs, and advertising
rates, due to its large market power.
5786 With the unprecedented large number of hours
available to it, the Applicant will be free to change its programming on any or
all of its stations to target competitors at will. As the Commission is aware,
the Applicant will be able to do this without any further approval
5787 In a competitive market, the most effective way to
compete is to lower your rates and, to do this, one must lower their costs. Who
better to consistently bid the lowest rate than the person who controls 42 per
cent of the market? How can the smaller stations like CIRV hope to compete over
the long term?
5788 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention, has
filed a new advertising survey which, for some reason known to it, neglected to
file as part of its main application. This survey should be viewed in the proper
context. The advertising survey provided by the Applicant contains businesses
that are already existing clients of existing stations.
5789 The survey does not show objective evidence of
untapped advertising revenue, but rather it shows evidence of the harm that will
be caused to existing broadcasters if the Applicant is licensed when these
clients switch their business to the new station.
5790 As the Commission will recall, I supported the change
to the ethnic policy to allow for bilingual programming to be considered ethnic
programming. This was to allow the existing broadcasters greater flexibility to
serve the changing needs of their audience. It was not meant to be used to
create a new station format to be used against the existing ethnic broadcasters.
In fact, the bilingual format proposed by the Applicant is not unique and is
currently used by ethnic broadcasters in their programming, including CHIN
itself, which already offers bilingual programming to its listeners on its 1540
5791 At the hearing, the Commission heard firsthand from
Ms Sahota, a producer of some of the Applicant's existing bilingual ethnic
programming. This is clear evidence that existing broadcasters are in a good
position to serve this need among ethnic listeners.
5792 In 1994, the Commission denied an application for a
new ethnic station due to the negative impact of such a new station on existing
broadcasting services. The conclusion reached in 1994 is equally applicable
today: the application should be denied.
5793 CIRV's continued existence may be threatened if the
Applicant is licensed due to its desire to offer more programming directly in
competition with CIRV. Faced with this knowledge, the Applicant has failed to
provide "compelling evidence to the contrary" and therefore its application
should be denied.
5794 Granting the licence to the Applicant will increase
CHIN Radio's empire, concentration of ownership, control of the ethnic market,
which may lead to it becoming a monopoly in the Greater Toronto ethnic radio
market. This is certainly not in the public's best interest. The bottom line is
that CIRV, as well as the other ethnic broadcasters in Greater Toronto, will be
materially harmed if the Applicant is granted the licence.
5795 Still on the Radio 1540 application, I would briefly
like to address one final aspect.
5796 This is not the first time the Applicant has come to
the Commission for assistance for the technical problems of 1540 AM. In fact,
the Applicant has already been provided with sufficient relief, as CHIN was
granted a low power FM transmitter repeater licence so that it could improve the
night-time coverage of its AM signal to certain areas in Greater Toronto. How
much more does the Applicant expect?
5797 The Commission has helped the Applicant and is not
entitled to any other relief, especially when the relief sought will most
definitely harm existing broadcasters. CIRV notes that it has survived,
notwithstanding that it has a much smaller coverage area than CHIN FM or CHIN AM
5798 If the Applicant truly believes the 740 AM frequency
will solve its technical problems for its AM operations, why is it not proposing
a frequency swap and agree to give up its 1540 AM, and the low power repeater,
101.3 FM, frequencies in exchange for the 740 AM frequency? This would help
solve its technical problems and not result in any material harm to existing
broadcasters. If the Applicant had proposed this, CIRV would not be here
intervening today in opposition.
5799 We note that the Applicant, in its reply to our
intervention, highlighted the fact that it received a large number of positive
interventions. We wish to remind the Commission of our previous statements that
these interventions should be taken in context. The Applicant openly solicited
these interventions on a TV show that the Applicant is involved with. Are these
interventions a groundswell of support or the result of a well organized
5800 At the hearing, we heard Mr. Lombardi speak about a
catalogue containing 1,000 different titles of ethnic music. This is the first
time that I have heard of this, and would encourage Mr. Lombardi to share this
catalog with the rest of the ethnic broadcasters and members to the Canadian
Association of Ethnic Broadcasters. As the Commission is aware, the idea for a
catalog was advocated by CIRV Radio during the ethnic policy review proceeding.
CIRV continues to support this initiative, and has committed $3,000 a year to
support this measure.
5801 I will now turn my comments to why we are intervening
in the application of Infinity Broadcasting for a new multicultural service
operating on 740 AM. In our view, if this application is approved, it will have
serious negative consequences on the existing ethnic broadcasters.
5802 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention,
tries to paint the view many times that the only reason why CIRV is against its
proposed services is to merely prevent them from becoming a new member of the
Toronto ethnic broadcasting community or to protect our turf. I want to make it
very clear that we are not afraid of competition, either from new broadcasters
or from existing ethnic broadcasters.
5803 CIRV's concern arises due to our sincere belief that
the already existing ethnic stations, and many SCMO services, are more than
sufficient to meet Toronto's ethnic community needs. The competition is already
intense in Toronto. By adding a new competitor whose primary language group,
South Asian, is clearly receiving a significant amount of programming, will
necessarily hurt existing ethnic broadcasters. This cannot be in the public
5804 The Applicant takes great pains to state that it will
not be providing programming to groups already being served by existing ethnic
broadcasters. The Applicant states that its Hindustani programming is not being
offered by other broadcasters. CIRV does not disagree with the
5805 Our point is that the South Asian community is
already receiving a significant amount of programming. The community interested
in Hindustani programming is from the same community which understands both the
Hindi and Punjabi languages.
5806 If you increase programming which caters to these
communities, you create choices. This may cause the audience to leave existing
stations and follow the programming of the Applicant. Once such persons leave,
there is a risk that they will not return to the existing station.
5807 The Applicant also has failed to indicate whether it
intends to air its South Asian programming during time slots which overlap with
the South Asian programming on existing broadcasters. This lack of information
makes it difficult for the public and for the Commission to judge the effect of
the Applicant's proposed service on existing ethnic broadcasters. Is the
Applicant prepared to accept a condition of licence that it will ensure its
South Asian programming does not overlap with the South Asian programming of
5808 The South Asian radio programming already available
in Toronto represents almost an entire broadcasting week. This is not indicative
of a group which is "badly unserved", as the Applicant claims.
5809 CIRV currently provides a significant amount of Hindi
and Punjabi programming offering seven hours per week, between 6:00 a.m. and
midnight, and 18 hours between midnight and 6:00 a.m., three times a week. The
Applicant, in its reply, has stated that advertising on its station will
represent new radio dollars. This is because, he argues, advertisers are anxious
to reach the South Asian communities which are "badly or unserved". As it is
clear from the facts, this is not the case. The South Asian community enjoys the
second most amount of radio programming in Toronto, second only to the Chinese
5810 As well, the Applicant states that advertisers are
concerned about the quality of programming which currently is available in
Toronto. It is interesting to note that the Applicant did not say that
advertisers were concerned about the quantity of programming, but rather the
quality. The Applicant did not provide any further details of this concern, but
this statement would tend to suggest that advertisers are looking to switch
their ads from existing programs to the programs to be offered by the new
station. This will then result in harm to existing broadcasters.
5811 The Applicant has failed to provide real evidence
that there exists a sufficient audience for its station in order to support it
without taking significant audiences from existing ethnic
5812 The Applicant has also failed to establish that there
exists a real and demonstrable need for more South Asian programming. The
Applicant states that since a good portion of the South Asian programming is
geared towards the Punjabi community, this means that the audience for the
Hindustani language is unserved. This completely ignores the fact that the
Punjabi community understands the Hindustani language, North of Hindi, and will
likely be a significant part of the audience of the Applicant's station. The
Applicant states that it will not be targeting the Punjabi community as its
audience or business advertising base. Is the Applicant prepared to accept this
as a condition of licence?
5813 In its reply to our intervention, the Applicant
argues that the lack of negative interventions from independent producers and
those brokering air time on existing ethnic broadcasters somehow supports the
Applicant's view that CIRV's intervention is somehow lacking. This statement of
the Applicant is curious. Why would these groups be against the new ethnic
station? These groups' bargaining power only increases if a new station is
licensed, as airtime increases making the demand for their services more
intense. It is not at all surprising that these groups have chosen not to
5814 In conclusion to our two interventions, we firmly
believe that Toronto deserves new and unique radio services, not more of the
same. The 740 AM frequency is Greater Toronto's last remaining major frequency,
and CIRV urges the Commission to weigh each application carefully to ensure that
the new service warrants being granted the 740 AM frequency.
5815 While the 93.5 FM and 106.3 FM frequencies are not as
powerful as 740 AM, they are still valuable frequencies and should be used for a
new type of service to give Toronto more diversity in radio programming. CIRV
submits that the Greater Toronto broadcasting market would be better off if the
Commission delays in licensing anyone now and reserves the frequencies if it is
not satisfied that there are worthy applications before it.
5816 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I ask you
to consider our comments here today and those in our written interventions in
the previously mentioned applications and, in doing so, respectfully request
that both of the applications be denied.
5817 We ask the Commission, with all fairness, to remember
that when the Commission years ago first awarded a licence to CIRV, we promised
the Commission and our communities our best efforts to fulfil our commitment to
the fullest. Now we ask you, is it fair to have all that we achieved
5818 I leave you all with this question in your thoughts,
and I have no doubt that your decision will be taken with a lot of fairness, as
it always has in the past, and I am sure will continue to do so in the
5819 Thank you, and I am pleased to respond to your
questions, if you have any.
5820 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
5821 Commissioner Wilson.
5822 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you.
5823 Mr. Alvarez, I have a few questions for you. It will
not be too long, though.
5824 In both of your interventions, and I do want to spend
a little bit of time with you because you are intervening as an ethnic
broadcaster against other potential ethnic broadcasters, and one of the reasons
that you state is that you really feel that the communities are well
5825 I too participated in the ethnic broadcasting policy
review, and frankly that is not the message that I heard. That is why I want to
ask you some questions about how you arrived at that position.
5826 On the one hand, I can certainly respect your right
to intervene and to try and protect your business interests as an ethnic
broadcaster in Toronto, but if you raise that as the reason, that the
communities are well enough served already, then it just makes me curious. So I
would like to explore some of that.
5827 I would also like to explore the specific impact that
it is going to have on you, because although you kind of list that as the
secondary reason, I think that that is certainly a significant concern for you,
that the impact that any new ethnic broadcaster would have.
5828 The first thing I wanted to clarify, though, is that
in your intervention you mention, in both of your interventions actually, on
Radio 1540 and Infinity, you talk about the Commission tests -- the
presence of adequate untapped advertising revenues, and that sufficient audience
exists for the proposed service.
5829 I just wanted to clarify with you where precisely you
saw that those criteria as identified as tests that the Commission would apply,
or were they simply reasons given in the denial of that particular application
at that particular time.
5830 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Since that hearing, the Commission
has licensed 1430. That hearing, if I remember correctly, was in 1994, I
5831 Since then, we have another full ethnic broadcast in
Toronto, 1430. Since then, we have new services. We have a couple of television
stations that were licensed. In the case of the South Asian television stations,
they have 24 hours of South Asian services, including aboriginal, four hours a
day, with Hindustani and Hindu languages.
5832 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Although that service is a
premium television service, which charges a very large fee per month. It does
not come as part of basic cable. Is that right?
5833 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: I am not sure. I believe it is
available now on the cable operators, but I am not sure what the fees are
involved on that, but it is available in Greater Toronto.
5834 Since that, as well there were quite a few SCMO
services, specialty services, that were approved by the Commission. If we were
to talk about the South Asian community, there are a couple of SCMO 24 hours
full services directed to the South Asian community.
5835 If there are some groups that -- you may have
heard that through the ethnic policy review. You may have heard that there is
some need for some groups, but those are the minor groups.
5836 The minor groups, those are in some cases the ones
that may be underserved, but those can be accommodated by the existing
broadcasters because, you know, sometimes it is difficult because those smaller
groups, they don't have the revenue base to support themselves. In order for
them to have access, through established ethnic broadcasters so that the main
groups, the main languages can support those that do not have the revenue
5837 Overall, it is our view that the ethnic communities,
in terms of radio, are well served in Greater Toronto.
5838 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Let me just ask you a couple of
specific questions about each of the applications. I will deal with the Radio
1540 one first.
5839 What I wanted to explore with you is the actual
incremental increase in Portuguese programming on Radio 1540, because you
mentioned the 16.5 hours. I went through and counted up the different programs
on CHIN FM, CHIN AM, and on 1540 and then on 740 as well, and came to a total of
16.5 hours, as you pointed out. But in the schedule for the new station, they
only show 1.5 hours of Portuguese programming.
5840 What I am trying to find out is, what are they doing
now? You mentioned that they did not file a schedule for 1540 and for 100.7 FM,
but you seem to have one somewhere, because you are quoting some figures for the
programming that they are playing.
5841 I am just trying to sort out what the actual
incremental increase in Portuguese programming would be for this
5842 How much of the 16.5 hours is currently being
5843 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: My understanding is that the 16.5
hours is in addition of the number of hours that they have on the 100.7
5844 CHIN, I believe -- I do not have the CHIN FM
schedule in front of me, but I believe that CHIN is doing Monday to Friday, from
5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m.
5845 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Right.
5846 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: And then they are doing, on the
week-end, Saturday --
5847 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You mentioned Sunday, 6:00 a.m.
to 8:30 a.m.
5848 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: 6:00 to 8:30 for the FM, Sunday
5849 COMMISSIONER WILSON: And 5:00 to 7:00 on Mondays to
5850 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: 5:00 to 7:00, Monday to Fridays,
on the FM. Sunday, 6:00 to 8:30, and Saturday -- what I do not have is the
schedule of CHIN FM.
5851 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So what you are saying, then, is
that the cumulative impact, the 1.5 hours a week that shows in the application
for 740 AM for CHIN, is only a part. That is only a part of the increase, that
is not the total impact.
5852 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: All I am saying, Madam
Commissioner, is that CHIN AM has Portuguese, 5:00 to 7:00 Monday to Friday,
then on Saturday they have 7:00 to 10:00 a.m. in Portuguese, on Saturday. And
they have 6:00 to 8:30 on Sunday. This is currently on CHIN FM.
5853 When I look at their new schedule for the CHIN AM,
they are proposing Portuguese -- this is the current schedule, and this is
the proposed schedule. So they are proposing, in Portuguese, from 7:00 to 9:30.
So what would happen, this would go Monday to Friday. It will go 5:00 to 7:00 on
the FM, then from 7:00 to 9:30 a.m. they would go AM.
5854 The difference on this, including the weekends, is
16.5 hours more per week, which represents the 26 per cent over and above what
they are doing.
5855 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. Thank you.
5856 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: But just not only, Madam
Commissioner, is the fact that if CHIN was granted a new licence to operate 740,
CHIN can, in fact, increase more hours on the CHIN FM without any approval from
5857 Our great concern is that in fact CHIN would have 378
hours of ethnic in their hands, so really they can do almost whatever, like
switching around, so it is not possible to compete when we have only 126 hours.
It is very, very hard to compete with another ethnic broadcaster that has 378
hours at his disposal. Even though he may show only an increase of 16.5 hours in
Portuguese for now, but later on he may decide to put another 20 hours on top,
and then what can CIRV do? Nothing.
5858 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Would it be fair to say that the
CHIN application, if approved, would have a more significant impact on you than
the Infinity proposal?
5859 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: We believe, first of all, Madam
Commissioner, that Greater Toronto does not need any further new ethnic
5860 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I understood that point quite
clearly, but if you have to choose between the two, I mean, none of the other
ethnic broadcasters are intervening on the same basis. They are not intervening
at all against those two applications, so presumably -- well, you can't
read anything into the silence, but they are not intervening,
5861 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: If I may suggest, Madam
Commissioner, the fact that there are applicants for different services on 740,
perhaps that is the reason why they are not intervening.
5862 In any event, if I had to choose between both CHIN
and Infinity, we have based ourselves on their proposed programming schedule
and, by looking at both, we believe that Infinity's proposed schedule would have
less harmful effect on CIRV FM, as long as they would be provided with a
condition of licence disallowing them of making any changes to their proposed
language groups, including serving Portuguese, and not overlap the current South
Asian programming. Of course this does not necessarily mean that CIRV FM
supports the Infinity application.
5863 In the case of CHIN, if the applicant is licensed, it
will control almost half of the whole ethnic programming hours in Toronto. The
applicant will have three out of seven stations. This will give the applicant
unprecedented market power. With three stations, with 378 hours a week to
program, the applicant will be in a good position to utilize the hours in a
5864 CHIN, this programming power, when combined with the
ability to spread costs of the three stations, makes the situation even worse
for the existing stations. The three stations will give the applicant, by its
own admission, significant economies of scale. This means that the applicant
will be able to reduce his costs significantly, which in turn will allow the
advertising rates to be lowered as well.
5865 For fear of sounding dramatic, if the applicant, in
the case of CHIN, is licensed, there is a real chance that CIRV will be forced
to go out of business. CIRV has been providing quality programming service for
many years. We have served the communities well. We want to continue to do so.
We are not afraid of competition, but what I am talking about is unfair
competition, Madam Commissioner.
5866 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I guess that is partly what I am
trying to get at, Mr. Alvarez. If you say that you are not afraid of competition
but you oppose both of the ethnic applications --
5867 Let me ask you two more specific questions with
respect to the Infinity proposal, for example. One of the points that you make
about the viability of their proposal has to do with whether or not there is
enough advertising to sustain the additional programming.
5868 Have you looked at the letters of intervention on
file for Infinity Broadcasting, wherein certain amounts of money -- I am
just wondering whether any people had advertised with you.
5869 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: There is no guarantee that these
advertising dollars will be generated of the new advertisers. At the end of the
day, Madam Commissioner, what I have been indicating to the Commission today, or
trying to deliver a message, for that matter, is that the South Asian community
is well served. It has the most programming hours, second only to the Chinese.
It has more hours than Italian or Portuguese.
5870 At the end of the day, it is the same
5871 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You have made that point, and I
5872 Are any of these people who have committed
advertising dollars, or any of these businesses that have committed advertising
dollars, do any of them advertise with you, or are they different?
5873 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: I believe that some of those
members are part of our clientele on CIRV, yes.
5874 COMMISSIONER WILSON: In terms of the overall notion
that Toronto does not need another ethnic station, Mr. Robson, during the
presentation by Infinity, talked about the incredible growth in the ethnic
population, and the overall impact that that is having on the demographics in
the city, and that it is increasing at the rate of 70,000 people per year, that
there has been a significant increase, 200,000 since 1996 and continues to
expand at the rate of over 70,000 immigrants per year.
5875 With growth taking place that significant a rate,
would that not suggest that there would be some extra need for another ethnic
station? What is the threshold?
5876 I guess the point that I am trying to get is, while I
appreciate your concerns, you have suggested that neither of the applicants has
quantified whether or not there is audience, or demand. You have not really
quantified the other side of the argument for me. You have not really shown me
what the negative impact is going to be of having another ethnic station in the
market, especially in view of the fact that under the new ethnic broadcasting
policy, with the relaxation of the broad service rule, there is a possibility to
serve a smaller number of communities. If a particular market has a large number
of outlets, broadcast outlets, you could rationalize your schedule and serve
perhaps a smaller number of communities and increase the quality of the service
that you are providing to those communities. It means making changes to your
business, but --
5877 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: First of all, I am not quite sure
that this study that Infinity made in terms of increases, according to Stats
Canada -- I believe that they were overstated.
5878 It is hard to believe that those figures were taken
only from the contour that 740 has. I find the figures to be overstated in terms
of increases, by looking at the Statistics Canada of 1996.
5879 We came to the conclusion, and it is part of our
intervention filed with the Commission, that we have reason to believe that
those figures were overstated. But at the same time now, with policy review, the
Commission should allow some time to the current ethnic broadcasters to adjust
themselves with this 50 per cent bilingual format programming, which in part we
are already doing.
5880 We have proven in the past that we are able to meet
the needs of those smaller groups that need access to the airwaves, so in the
past the current ethnic stations have provided relief to those minor groups that
have requested air time. I am sure that we would continue to do so, but at the
same time I would suggest that we need some time to accommodate to this new
format, to reflect the changes on the new ethnic policy.
5881 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you very much, Mr.
5882 Those are all my questions.
5883 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
5884 Thank you, Mr. Alvarez and your colleagues. We will
probably see you in the audience, if not before us, before the end of this
5885 Mr. Secretary please.
5886 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Before I leave, Madam Chair, I
would like to take the opportunity to wish a very Happy Millennium to the
Commission as they attend this hearing.
5887 Thank you very much.
5888 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Pray for us!
5889 Mr. Secretary, please.
5890 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
5891 We will now hear the intervention by Dufferin
Communications Incorporated please.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5892 MR. BILL EVANOV: Good morning, Madam Chairperson and
Commissioners. My name is Bill Evanov, from CIDC FM. Seated on my right is
Carmela Laurignano; on my left, our sales manager, Fidele Naccarato; to the
table behind us, on my right, your left, our news director, Barry Horne; and on
my left, your right, our program and music director, Ken Stowar.
5893 The CIDC is an independent, which pioneered the CHR
format on FM in the Toronto CMA, a CMA of which Orangeville is very much a part
5894 It is our view that the proposal by Milestone for a
new music service on 93.5 would have a negative impact on existing broadcasters,
and particularly CIDC FM. While a play list was not been provided by Milestone,
we do note that the music styles they proposed would duplicate significantly the
program undertakings of CISS FM and CING FM, and CIDC FM, all deriving audience
and income from the Toronto CMA. The advertisers Milestone is identifying as
sources of revenue are the same businesses we have been developing. It is the
same CHR pie.
5896 MR. KEN STOWAR: It is our view that there is
significant duplication of music and programming direction on the existing
Toronto radio stations. The specific details have been included in our written
intervention under Appendix A. While a detailed play list was not provided with
Milestone's application, our review of the limited list of titles and artists
offered shows there is considerable duplication of the music already offered by
CIDC FM and other radio stations already licensed to serve a portion of the
5897 In its application, Milestone submitted a sample
artist and music list on page 45 and 46. Of the 73 artists represented on the
list, 57, or 78 per cent, are represented in the music universe available to the
Toronto CMA through CIDC FM. Many of these artists are also part of the music
universe of CISS FM and CING FM.
5898 Of the 73 titles listed, 44 are part of the universe
of CIDC FM, which means a duplication of 60 per cent. Again, most of these
titles are further duplicated by CISS FM and CING FM.
5899 While not forming part of the example of music to be
actually programmed, the Applicant did submit, on pages 43 and 44 of its
application, a list of Canadian Artists Active in Urban Music. Of the 68
distinct Canadian artists on this list, 63 per cent are presently available for
airplay as part of the music universe for CIDC FM.
5900 MR. BARRY HORNE: In his presentation to the
Commission, Mr. Jolly alluded to the creation of a 'competitive pressure
situation' in the Toronto market, and Milestone has identified the radio format
they propose to establish as operating in the urban format.
5901 In order to analyze the crossover of artists and
music from the Urban variation of CHR to other variations, we examined the
national Urban Chart published by Radio and Records Magazine for the week ending
February 4, 2000. Our analysis showed that 43 per cent of the music identified
as most played in the Urban format was duplicated in the Rhythmic/CHR format. A
comparison of the same Urban chart with the weekly play list of CIDC FM produced
an artist duplication of 60 per cent. This clearly indicates that these two
stations will be playing largely the same music by the same artists.
5902 MR. FIDELE NACCARATO: Our experience and the research
filed with the application tell us that the core audience for Milestone will be
between the ages of 18-34. Their data shows 57 per cent of their target audience
will be derived from this demo.
5903 While this age group accounts for just under 30 per
cent of the total population of Toronto, a report presented to the Toronto
broadcasters by BBM earlier this month shows that this age group is declining.
BBM showed that men 18-34 alone suffered a decline of 8.2 per cent in population
and a decrease in overall hours tuned to radio of 5.7 per cent between fall 1998
and fall 1999. Furthermore, they project this trend will continue until
5904 Milestone also claims to be deriving a portion of its
revenue from the repatriation of dollars flowing out of the country, and in
particular to WBLK. However, once again we are concerned about the legitimacy of
5905 WBLK only has a 12-plus share of 0.7 of the Toronto
CMA, according to the Spring 1999 BBM. The applicant claims to be able to
reclaim a significant portion of these revenues, but we are convinced that this
is not possible. First of all, a listen to WBLK will reveal that the vast
majority of Canadian advertisers are dance or music clubs. Because of the mix of
music CIDC FM plays, we too are targeting this advertising category and have
achieved some moderate success.
5906 Two things hamper us, however, in repatriating
Canadian dollars, dollars that, we heard today, to total less than half a
million dollars: (1) Our signal does not cover the full CMA, which would be a
problem facing Milestone; and (2) A portion of the dollars spent are meant for a
Buffalo audience because there is a terrific market for clubs in Buffalo which,
given its size, does not have as much choice for the 18-34 dance lover. We
cannot touch the budget allocated to reach the Buffalo market, and we would
argue that an urban contemporary format on 93.5 cannot either.
5907 That leaves Milestone to go after the club
advertisers that are either currently advertising with CIDC FM or are
advertisers we are currently working on selling. When the revenues they
anticipate from repatriation do not materialize, they will have no choice but to
target directly clients for all of the stations with similar formats in the CMA.
As the most vulnerable, we will lose the most.
5908 Therefore, Milestone poses two direct threats to our
revenue base: (1) Audience erosion, because of an overlap of music styles, and
(2) an expressed intent and inevitable need to target our
5909 MR. BILL EVANOV: In summary, Madam Chairperson, CIDC
FM defends its right to intervene in this matter as a license holder residing
within the Toronto CMA, as defined by both Stats Canada and the
5910 It is our conclusion that:
5911 (1) The application filed by Milestone will have a
serious and negative impact on the operation of our station and of other
stations within the CMA.
5912 (2) This impact will be created by introducing new
competition into a segment of the market that is currently served in whole or in
part by existing broadcasters.
5913 (3) There are no programming or service enhancements
for Toronto with this application, one of the stated CRTC requirements for use
of this frequency. And given the overlap in music styles, the applicant will not
be bringing diversity to the market, as claimed.
5914 As a result, Dufferin Communications, on behalf of
CIDC, wishes to intervene in opposition to this application, and in opposition
to the SHARE application, on the same grounds.
5915 Thank you.
5916 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
5917 Commissioner Grauer please.
5918 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank
you, Mr. Evanov. I just have a couple of questions. It should not take too
5919 With respect to both applications, your principal
opposition is that they will not bring any added diversity and that it is
essentially the same format.
5920 What I would like to do is, first, with respect to
Milestone, in their response to your intervention they indicated that your CDC
is best characterized as a contemporary hit radio format station, focusing on
current songs reaching hit status.
5921 Do you agree with that statement on their
5922 MR. BILL EVANOV: Not exactly, and I think I will have
our music director, Barry Horne, address that definition.
5923 MR. BARRY HORNE: To answer your question, 73 per cent
of the music that CIDC programs would fall under a Dance CHR sound. Most of that
music is derived from the street. Eventually what happens to many of those same
songs is that they do reach what I will refer to as chart status.
5924 The one thing that CIDC has been proud of over the
past five years is having the street savvy to bring a lot of these recordings,
and in particular many Canadian artists and more specifically local
5925 The amount of music that -- if you look a look
at our play list today, probably 60 per cent will now be on a chart. The other
40 per cent, into the 35-40 per cent range, will not charted material. But I
will just reiterate, it eventually will make its way.
5926 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Then with respect to Milestone's
proposed FM, which they categorize as authentic urban music, is that how you
then also categorize your own?
5927 What I am trying to understand is what the difference
5928 MR. BARRY HORNE: The only way I could compare with
what we presently do and have done with Milestone is take a look at the lists
that were available to me. As I stated in my opening remarks, that the
duplication was extremely high.
5929 I was looking for the difference, and I did not
really find a significant difference with the play list that Milestone provided.
Then again I have to restate that again the duplication is there with CISS FM
and CING FM.
5930 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: With regard to that, as you
know, they have not intervened in opposition to this. Can you understand that,
or help explain that to us?
5931 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Commissioner, I just
wanted to qualify one thing, or at least make it more clearer, that when you are
talking CHR, it is hit radio. So it is a hit ratio that is played in combination
with other types of music, which hopefully incorporates new artists, hopefully
incorporates a variation of a similar exact play list. In our case, we do some
Dance versus straight Pop, as some of our competitors do.
5932 When you are talking a hit format, these days you
have to speak Urban, because the Urban and the Hip Hop has crossed over. They
are the hits as well. So one does not necessarily negate the other. And that is
where the duplication happens. Perhaps Barry would have something to add to
5933 MR. BARRY HORNE: Madam Commissioner, if I could add
to what Carmela is saying.
5934 When you look at Hit radio and how it has evolved,
there are several variations at the CHR format. There is really a Pop CHR, there
is a Dance CHR, an Urban is another variation of CHR, especially when you are
going to target an audience as young as both of these proposed radio stations
say they will target.
5935 If you look at the cross-over of weekly play lists
from the Urban format, and again we went to an American chart, because at the
moment there is no Canadian Urban chart, Radio and Records Magazine, compared to
their Rhythmic CHR for the week, the cross over between those two charts alone
is 43 per cent, a very significant cross over of music and artists.
5936 Many of these artists form part of the daily and
weekly play lists for CIDC FM or CISS FM and CING FM as well.
5937 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Again perhaps you could maybe
tell me -- I guess what we are wondering is why you are the only station
which has intervened on the basis of concern about the format, or at all in
5938 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: I know the answer to
5939 It was not because we were trying to break a Guiness
Book of World Records for most appearances by an independent broadcaster before
a panel during two weeks.
5940 I think, I know, we are in a situation that is
limited by a number of things, by our technical parameters, by a history of the
station, by our own heritage and conviction as to what we want to do, which is
to stick with the format that we have.
5941 We cannot really answer for why nobody else did. I
know that one of them is an out-of-market station, and the other one has
achieved quite a bit of success in the last little while. So I could not really
speculate what their motives are.
5942 This is serious business for us, and we feel we have
the most to lose and feel the most threatened, because we will rely on the same
advertising revenues, because it is a duplication of music, which will erode our
audience as well.
5943 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: With respect to SHARE's
application, I know that in the response to your intervention, Mr. Calderone
differentiated their proposal significantly from what is existing currently, by
stating the differences and how the music is selected, sequenced, mixed, group
combined, and presented.
5944 He stated further that one can hear some of the music
some of the time in this market, but one cannot hear all the music all the time
on any one.
5945 I am wondering if you could comment on
5946 MR. BARRY HORNE: While we have a deep appreciation on
Mr. Calderone's knowledge of the music and his credibility in this area, to be
frank, his credibility in broadcast programming is somewhat more
5947 I think if you want to determine exactly how that
radio station will probably sound, you might want to look at the experiences of
the two people on their panel who have the depth in programming, being Mr. Wood
and Mr. Templeton. Both are highly familiar with the need to have radio stations
generate familiarity within their audiences in order to be
5948 Certainly the radio stations that Mr. Wood has
consulted have been well served by this advice, and Mr. Templeton is aware that
this very move has been responsible for the change of fortunes for several of
the stations purchased by NewCap.
5949 With that history, and that is general market
knowledge. It is radio knowledge. That works.
5950 This radio station, in order to succeed and meet the
commitments that it has made to you in terms of both its audience and financial
projections, will have to be a very familiar radio station, and that means a hit
5951 Again, I will go back to the reference of cross-over
among formats. It is very high.
5952 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So, if I understand you, and
correct me if I am not getting this right, what you are saying is that
notwithstanding what they have proposed, that in fact what they will put on the
air is going to be something different than what they proposed,
5953 MR. BARRY HORNE: Perhaps, Madam Commissioner, what
they would put on the air initially, but I would say reality will set in very
5954 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: If I might add just one thing,
because I was involved in some of the response or at least the analysis of Mr.
Calderone's response to our thing.
5955 I was told that while he identified 49 music styles,
we could probably identify 200 music styles, but you have to net those down. So
when it comes down to it, the music genre is much narrower. It is like saying
that you are playing Walter Austinack or John Gora, but the sound that they are
playing is Polka, because they are both Polka players, accordion players and
other types of things.
5956 The sound is also very important. What would come out
of the box is important as well.
5957 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
5958 Could you tell me what impact the approval of the
SHARE FM application to operate a new station would have on your audience and
your revenues, for both actually, Milestone and SHARE.
5959 MR. BILL EVANOV: I can let Fidele get into that in a
moment, but we will severely be impacted by either of the applicants, whether it
is Milestone or SHARE, in the Toronto market. There is one advertising pie that
agencies buy, and that is the CHR pie. And there is so much revenue for this
particular age demo and this particular market in there, so whatever audience
they will achieve in Toronto -- I am going by their projections -- of
high share numbers, that could wipe out totally in the expenditures to our radio
5960 Fidele, you may want to expand on that.
5961 MR. FIDELE NACCARATO: Thank you.
5962 Looking at basically what is happening with the share
projections from both SHARE and Milestone, and taking into consideration that
SHARE has projected themselves with an 8 share, which would put them in the top
five stations in the market, and taking into consideration also that each share
point equals a million dollars in business, they would basically have the same
advertising revenue as a 680 news or CFMY would in the market. That would have a
huge impact on us as well as other radio stations in the market.
5963 As far as Milestone, with a 3.1 projected share and
also 1.7 million dollars from that would come from existing radio stations, and
understanding that they are also in their application targeting nightclubs in
the market, it would cause definite hardship to our advertising
5964 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I have one more
5965 You have stated that unless SHARE is extremely
successful in the first licence period, that NewCap, who is the single largest
shareholder, could become the sole owner of the station. I wonder if you could
tell me why this is problematic for you.
5966 MR. BILL EVANOV: For a number of hearings, I think
both applicants have made the argument that a certain service should come from
their particular community, where it would have their particular
5967 If they are licensed, and our concern is if they are
licensed and down the road it changes, then those arguments that we have heard
before were immaterial.
5968 It puts another major player into the market, in both
cases. They are both backed by Standard and by NewCap. We have mentioned it
because we have noted that in the application. It just concerned us, maybe
initially, as to who would really operate the station, and it tied in more with
our feeling that there were perhaps MLAs, or there was reference to certain cost
sharings and combos or whatever, so the impact of that could definitely hurt
5969 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: I think as well we were
concerned about the programming orientation, that that would be maintained as
well -- or that could possibly be eroded down the line at some unclear
line, not knowing where it was.
5970 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: But I gather you feel that this
is a very successful format, and that you expect them to be very successful at
your expense, but you are saying in the event that that does not happen, that
this could happen.
5971 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: That is the other thing that
we are afraid of. With the expertise of a Standard and a NewCap, and stated,
both in the oral presentation and in the written presentation, that both these
applicants would be relying on what they call synergies, that we dispute, that
it would be more of a force to be reckoned with, for us who are strong
5972 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Those are all my questions.
Thank you very much.
5973 Thank you, Madam Chair.
5974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Evanov, and your colleagues.
5975 We will now break for lunch, and resume at 2:00, with
appearing intervenors, in the order I mentioned this morning, that is,
interventions to CHWR, I believe. Thank you.
5976 Nous reprendrons à 2 heures.
--- Luncheon recess at 1235 / Suspension à 1235
--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400
5977 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
5978 Mr. Secretary please.
5979 MR. PETER CUSSONS: This afternoon we will be hearing
a number of supporting intervenors, particularly supporting the application by
5980 The first one this afternoon is Mr. Jack
5981 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Miller.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
5982 MR. JACK MILLER: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson,
Members of the Commission.
5983 Before I start, I hope you did not mind too much this
morning my getting up and helping myself to a drink of water from the press
people table. My throat was dry, and I couldn't help noticing no one was using
the facilities anyway.
5984 We are dealing here with 740 AM Toronto. This is an
enormous signal, enormous. We have, in Ontario, more than 11 million people,
more than one-third the national population. Here we have the second largest
country in the face of the earth, and more than one-third of the
population -- if in Ontario and almost of those people are reached by 740
AM. This morning, while this was being decided --
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5985 MR. JACK MILLER: I am not here to promote the
interest of any broadcaster or would-be broadcaster. I take it that all the
applicants here are decent and sincere people. Whichever one gets the licence
will in fact deliver the service they promised.
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5986 MR. JACK MILLER: I am more concerned about those
target audiences, and they are an interesting array.
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
5987 MR. JACK MILLER: I am willing to concede that all of
those are decent and deserving also. But there is a question of common sense
here, and fairness, and propriety.
5988 You see, several of these decent, deserving target
audiences are located in pockets. The Italian language audience in Toronto is
huge, and it is marvellous, and one of the closest friends I have ever had in my
life is part of that, Dan Inutzi. We had dinner with he and his wife last night,
my wife and I. Johnny Lombardi I count as an old friend from years
5989 The Toronto Black community is huge, and vibrant, and
wonderful. The Toronto Chinese community is huge, and vibrant, and wonderful,
and exciting, and changing things. But they are Toronto communities, and there
is this enormous signal that covers almost all of the population of
5990 Most of the population is down in this southern
strip, as we know, and this signal, theoretically, on its coverage chart reaches
from beyond London in the west to beyond Peterborough in the east, but we all
know perfectly well, from years and years and years of experience with it, when
the CBC was running it, that it comes in most of the time all the way from
Windsor to Ottawa, all of Ontario practically. I'm sorry. Now the people in the
north are going to be mad at me, because I have written them off. Well, I
shouldn't do that. That's not nice. The fact is, the signal covers almost all
the population of Ontario.
5991 In this massive coverage area, the age 50-plus
audience members are everywhere. We are everywhere. And of all these target
audiences, only one other has its members everywhere. And that is the
application for the Children Service. So let's look at that.
5992 This is an AM signal. Children, generally, can hear
sound up to about 15,000 cycles. That's Hi-Fi sound. And FM radio actually
transmits sound up to about 15,000 cycles, and a surprising number of the radio
receivers, the sets built by manufacturers to reproduce these sounds, do in fact
reproduce sound up to 15,000 cycles. So you could say children have FM
5993 Now, look at us, 50-plus. If you check with experts,
and I have done this, you will find that when people get to be age 50, they are
lucky to be able to hear any sound above 8,000 cycles. They would have to turn
up the volume. I am uneasy with this, because it is technical, but I think it is
worth pointing out. You have to turn up the volume to hear 8,000 cycles, and
when you get to be 60, you have to turn up the volume and more to hear 8,000
cycles. When you get to be 70, it may be beyond hope.
5994 Let's turn now, for the moment, to AM
5995 AM radio, theoretically, can transmit sound up to
15,000 cycles too, but there are a number of problems with it in the upper
registers, and there are standards that apply to it that result in the engineers
filtering the sound down to about a limit of 10,000 cycles. But the fact is,
most manufacturers who make radio receivers these days don't think much of AM
any more. They don't consider it a good market, they don't make good sets. You
will have a hard time finding an AM radio that will deliver sound at higher than
5,000 cycles. I have gone through this with several engineers.
5996 I have not, by the way, talked to any of the
applicants here about the facts I am using for my conclusions because, while
they are all decent and sincere people, they are all biased as well. So I have
gone outside them.
5997 Some of the people I have spoken to work for
broadcasters who are owned by friends of the owners of some of these applicants,
so they do not want their names mentioned because if you go the way I want you
to go, their employer's friends won't be very happy.
5998 AM radio sets, by and large, produce sound at up to
5,000 cycles. That is not as bad as it might sound because the average telephone
line, when you are talking on it, will not deliver sound above 3,500 cycles. So
you can follow a sound fairly well, but the fact is, we people 50-plus have AM
ears. There is something else to think about.
5999 It is the experience of a lot of broadcasters, and I
have spoken to them and they have tried this, that kids do not listen to AM
radio. Kids listen to FM radio. So, what could possibly be the sense of putting
a children's radio service on a frequency that is custom designed for people who
have AM ears, and not put it on a service that is custom designed for
people -- the children, that is -- who have FM ears?
6000 Children's radio service should be on FM, not only
because it suits them, but because they listen to FM. That is where kids go when
they go to the radio.
6001 You might say we have made great personal sacrifice
by adapting ourselves, the 50-plus people, to AM, and here is your chance to
make that sacrifice worthwhile.
6002 I don't work with a script, and I heard so many words
this morning, and so much technical talk, and so much angry talk, that I have to
stop and think about the very reasonable things that I want to say to
6003 It seems to me that if you are going to give this
frequency to a broadcaster who would serve an audience group that is in pockets
around the province, with Toronto the biggest of those pockets, that it would be
something like buying a 40-room house, knowing perfectly well that you are only
going to put people in three or four of the rooms: The people in those three or
four rooms would be perfectly deserving, decent people, and they could get very
good accommodating in those three or four rooms, but the facility, the house,
the 40-room house, would be largely wasted.
6004 The facility we are talking about here, this signal
that covers almost all of the population of Ontario, would be largely wasted if
you give it to an audience that is only located in pockets around the
6005 These are all decent people. They have marvellous
qualities. They deserve service. But I think we 50-plus deserve service
6006 Some people will say: But why should we really worry
about you? You're pretty well off. You're from the privileged class, you 50-plus
people. You are English-speaking people. You are privileged. The ethnic audience
has had a hard time. The Black audience has had a hard time. The North American
Natives have certainly had a hard time. They are deserving, and because you are
privileged, you are not deserving.
6007 Well, let's look at that question of whether we are
privileged or not, and whether we are deserving.
6008 I think anybody who has lived 50, 60, 70 years, has
raised a family, paid taxes, has earned some points, should be thought of as
deserving, but we can go farther than that.
6009 I believe that Canada is the best country in the
world to call "home", and I have believed that for a long time, and I believe it
more strongly every year. When I see the survey results coming in from the
United Nations or whoever does it, it seems that the world agrees with me too.
All over the world, people are polled and they say, the majority of them: Canada
is the best place in the world to call home.
6010 But Canada was not always like this, and I want to
talk to you about it a bit because, as a child, my parents had very good values
and they tried to instill those values back at the time that I was a child.
These values included: You must adore God. God is very impressive. God, in terms
of being adorable, is second only to the King of England.
6011 And it was the King of England. We had no illusions
about it being a King of Canada. And it was in fact a King. In fact, I go back
two kings. I go back to George the IV and George the VI before the present
6012 My parents always told me: Be kind to people. But
they made it clear, and all of their friends in the society here, the proper
society, agreed with them and made it clear, the why you should be kind to
everybody. You should understand that if somebody had the sound of eastern
Europe in their voice, they were not like us. If someone had the look of the
Orient on their face, they were not like us. If someone had a shade of skin
darker than ours, they were not like us. They were from another class of being.
They were perfectly nice, but not as nice as us.
6013 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Mr. Miller, forgive me, but we are
beyond the 10-minute threshold. If you could perhaps summarize your thoughts
6014 MR. JACK MILLER: I will summarize it. I may need
another two or three minutes. I noticed that one of the three who went before
lunch -- I was hoping to get up before lunch -- went something like
20-25 minutes. Please indulge me.
6015 They were not like us. When I got old enough to start
thinking for myself, at around age 10, I began to question these values. Very
soon after that I began to reject them, and before long I despised them. And the
country began to change. And now, look what we have.
6016 We have a hearing where groups, target audiences of
all of these groups, are being proposed for service. And how did that happen?
This is a fundamental change. You might say it is a natural change. It is
automatic in an advanced, modern, decent country, but it is not. It is not
6017 It happened during the two generations that are
represented by this 50-plus audience group, and I am part of that. Again, as I
say, it is not automatic.
6018 If you were to ask a question of a national
population, in any advanced presumably forward-looking country: "You are over 50
now; what have you done with your country? How has it changed in the time that
you had to work with it"? What would be the answers you would get in different
6019 If you went to Austria and asked that question, this
week, of people 50-plus, "What have you done with your country?", "How has it
changed in the time you had to work on it?", a proper answer in Austria would
be, "We have Nazis back in our government now."
6020 Now, ask that question of Canadians 50-plus, "What
have you done with your country?" "How has it changed in the time you have had
to work on it?" An appropriate answer would be: Look around this room. People
wanting to broadcast to Black Canadians, people wanting to broadcast to ethnic
Canadians, people wanting to broadcast to Native Canadians, people wanting to
broadcast to plain old Canadians 50-plus, all of them competing as
equals -- equals. This was inconceivable when these two generations took
control of this country and started to change it.
6021 This has happened in my time, and it has happened
because people like me welcomed it, encouraged it, let it happen. And I think it
is marvellous, and I am very proud of that. And there are no Nazis in our
government, and I am proud of that too. And I think that earns us, us 50-plus
people, some points. That is one of the reasons, probably the best reason, that
I think we should be thought of as deserving too.
6022 If all the audience groups here, represented here,
are equally unserved by radio, and I believe they are, and if all of them are
equally deserving, and I believe they are, then those factors cancel each other
6023 In reaching a decision on who should get this
frequency, you are left to rely on only the fundamental principle of democracy,
and that is: The decision goes to the majority. And among the groups here, the
audience group aged 50-plus is the overwhelming majority. And of the applicants
represented here, only the CHWO people propose to serve that
6024 Thank you for your time.
6025 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6026 I would like to point out that this is a different
phase, so you are not to compare the time allotted to these intervenors against
6027 MR. JACK MILLER: I understand that, but it is one of
the only --
6028 THE CHAIRPERSON: By anyway we enjoyed your
6029 MR. JACK MILLER: Thank you. It is an old
newspaperman's trick. We will try anything to keep talking!
6030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6031 Mr. Secretary.
6032 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Our next intervenor is J. Lyman
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6033 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: Madam Chairperson, Members of the
Commission. I might mention to Madam Chair I am having a little trouble with my
video and my audio, and the video cannot be fixed. I will have to wait until
6034 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I could be in worse shape!
--- Laughter / Rires
6035 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: I will try not to overlap on my
letter, which you already have, and deal with perhaps another phase of this
6036 I appear before you today in support of the
application by CHWO Ontario Inc. for the privilege of using the frequency of 740
kilohertz to better serve the area CHWO is currently licensed to serve, with
clarity, consistency, without co-channel interference and, hopefully, to be able
to broadcast its unique programming beyond its present parameters to
melody-starved Ontario people who are literally "dying to hear it" and, without
your blessing, will die without it.
--- Laughter / Rires
6037 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: In most Canadian provinces,
certainly in Ontario, no radio station other than CHWO devotes its musical
programming to the great popular music of the 20th Century. CHWO's programming
is unique. It did not achieve this position by itself. As other stations forsook
faithful listeners, CHWO kept on doing what it has been doing for years:
Providing music that sounds familiar, is entertaining and tuneful, music that
can offer comfort and inspiration, songs and melodies composed by gifted
composers, pleasantly sung and played by popular performers -- over 30 per
cent of them Canadians. In one sense, CHWO could be said to be "unique", simply
because competing stations have made it so, but CHWO is unique in many
6038 CHWO has told you that they are primarily looking
after people over 50. But, as I stated in my letter to the Commission, even
younger people should not be denied the opportunity of discovering and hearing
the wealth of great music we have in this world, where the words were cleverly
written by lyricists who ran the gamut of the Oxford Dictionary, and composers
created immortal melodies that could be hummed, sung and whistled.
6039 I once worked for a radio station manager whose
instructions were, "If you can't whistle it, don't play it."
6040 The trouble with a lot of songs one hears today is
that they cannot be whistled. As composer Sammy Kahn said, "Somebody forgot to
put them to music". But a radio listener who has empathy with a song, who can
hum, whistle and sing along with it, is a happy listener. And "Happiness is
(not) just a Thing Called Joe". There is actually a song called "I'm Humming,
I'm Singing, I'm Whistling".
6041 One can never forget the Seven Dwarfs marching off in
the morning, happily singing "Heigh-Ho, Heigh-Ho, It's Off to Work We Go", and
segueing into "Whistle While You Work", or Deborah Kerr in "The King and I", as
she solved a problem by singing "I Whistle a Happy Tune". In 1929, during the
Great Depression, Irving Berlin got it right when he wrote, and Al Jolson sang,
"Let Me Sing and I'll Be Happy".
6042 CHWO plays music you can sing, hum and
whistle -- music that makes you happy.
6043 And it was in 1927 that Mr. Berlin put to music the
truism "The Song Is Ended -- But The Melody Lingers On". Think of Elvis
Presley's 1956 hit "Love Me Tender", based on George Poulton's 1861 song "Aura
Lee", or Tony Martin's 1960 recording of "It's Now Or Never", adapted from de
Capua's 1899 song "O Sole Mio", or "God Save The King", based on a melody
composed in 1744 for the King of Denmark, adopted by Germany, England and the
United States. In 1933, Ray Noble, who also wrote "Goodnight Sweetheart",
adapted it for "Love Is The Sweetest Thing".
6044 The melody does linger on.
6045 CHWO is rending a wonderful service to people of all
ages, regardless of race, colour or creed. The people who live within the range
of the former coverage of CBL should have the opportunity to listen to CHWO
without losing it at sundown or straining to hear it over the interference from
co-channel foreign stations.
6046 In my case, my wife and I live about 15 miles from
CHWO's transmitter. It is the only station on either the AM or FM dial that we
can turn to and about 95 per cent of the time expect to hear the great music of
the 20th Century. One would think that a 10 kw station 15 miles away should be
coming in loud and clear. Well, it's okay daytime, but when the sun starts to go
down -- and in wintertime that's around 4:45 -- the patterns change,
and the signal loses strength. Foreign AM stations start to pound in, and
gibberish begins. In driving the 10 miles to Hamilton, CHWO fades in and out and
then is consumed by big-city electrical interference.
6047 One evening, about two years ago, in a desperate
search for "something worth listening to", my wife, as she frequently did night
after night, ranged over the AM dial and surprisingly found a "new" station near
the top end at 1560. Its call letters: WQEW. It was owned by the New York Times.
It was dedicated to playing the great standard music of North America. Even
though we could get WQEW only after sundown, even though sometimes it faded in
and out or an adjacent station encroached, when CHWO was carrying hockey or
another talk program, and we wanted music, it was a Godsend.
6048 Thus, in the whole of the AM-FM spectrum, cluttered
with hundreds of stations, we have the option of only two -- one Canadian,
one American -- but even this has been lost to us.
6049 A year ago, The Disney Corporation acquired the
facilities of WQEW from The Times. To our dismay, as has happened in Ottawa in
recent years, the adult programming was abruptly wiped out. The Disney
Corporation replaced it with something I can only describe as a "mickey-mouse
--- Laughter / Rires
6050 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: And I am a Mickey Mouse fan, I'll
have you know, from way back.
6051 This has left us with only one station on which we,
and thousands like us, can rely. When we want music, we can turn to CHWO --
or we can turn the radio off.
6052 As the Commission will recall, CHWO, among others,
applied for 91.1 on the FM dial. The Commission decided in favour of the CBC and
what is now known as "Radio One". That decision I understand.
6053 Later, a licensee that was assigned 92.5, only as
recently as 1993, decided to sell the station, and it was taken over by a
company that already had two licences in Toronto. One might have thought that
the applicants that lost out to the CBC would have been given the opportunity to
bid on the station and/or to apply for that licence, but that's not the way the
system works. Those who have much are getting, and trying, for more.
6054 CHWO has been standing in line waiting for what now
appears to be a "last chance" to improve its service and to provide radio
programming to a larger audience of people whose preferences have been ignored
and stand deprived. And, as the letters to CHWO must show, people are waiting
for this to happen. Only you can make it happen.
6055 Thank you.
6056 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Potts.
Thank you for your presentation.
6057 Mr. Secretary please.
6058 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
6059 We will now hear from the Humber School of Performing
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6060 MR. LENNIE BOYD: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson
and Members of the Committee. My name is Lennie Boyd. I am not Pat Ferbiac. She
unfortunately is --
6061 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it was a "she" as well. You are
--- Laughter / Rires
6062 MR. LENNIE BOYD: Unfortunately, she is not able to
attend today, so as a professor in the music department, I was asked to, as the
saying goes, sub for her.
6063 I am here to speak in favour of CHWO's licence
6064 The Music Programme is a significant part of Humber's
School of Performing Arts, and I would like to begin by saying a few words about
6065 We have almost 300 full time music students in our
Jazz and Commercial Music programme at any one time. Ours is a three-year
post-secondary programme that prepares professional working musicians. Our
students come from across the country, and indeed around the world. Our alumni,
who number in the thousands, are well respected musicians who can be found
throughout the music industry.
6066 We at Humber College School Of Performing Arts, and
the Music Programme in particular, support CHWO's application for two reasons.
The first is outlined in the letter of support submitted to you by Alastair Kay,
who is a professor in the programme, the head of the brass department, the
director of Humber's top Big Band and a professional working musician of
6067 In his letter, Al wrote:
"With the radio dials filled to overflowing with pop, soft rock, hard rock,
and the like, it would be very nice to have an alternative music station to tune
in to. As a musician and the Head of the Brass Department at Humber College, I
know how important it was for me to hear big band music when I was growing up.
The hundreds of superb singers, instrumentalists and bands that I was exposed to
while listening to the radio gave me a headstart on my career as a trombonist.
By the time I was seventeen, I could play Tommy Dorsey or Jack Teegarden songs
effortlessly, which impressed the older musicians I was working with! After 25
years of professional playing, working with diverse talents such as the Toronto
Symphony, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra, Aretha Franklin, Placido Domingo,
etc., I can honestly say that my students' lives will be enriched by being able
to tune in to PrimeTime Radio's suggested music
6068 I should add that, in addition to his other
credentials, Al is a graduate from about 25 years ago of Humber College's Music
6069 A second reason for our support of CHWO's application
is that, as part of their commitment to the development of Canadian Talent, we
at Humber College School of Performing Arts have been named as one of the
beneficiaries. This will be very important to us in helping to offer an enriched
learning experience for our students. Recent government cuts to post-secondary
education have made it very difficult for us to provide much more than the
basics to our students.
6070 We have an excellent curriculum, being delivered by
people who are both exceptional musicians and teachers, but we no longer have
the budget to provide many of the things that serve to enhance this curriculum.
The money that is being identified by CHWO for Humber College will allow the
Music Department to provide some of these enhancements.
6071 Two areas that are of particular interest to us are
the purchase of much needed capital equipment and the ability to have visiting
artists provide guest concerts and clinics. In a programme like ours, we
continually need to replace smaller things -- like amplifiers, stereos, CD
players, etc. --and occasionally we need to replace large pieces --
such as pianos an other instruments. We never have enough money for these
6072 With respect to visiting artists and clinicians, who
bring exciting new ideas and perspectives to the students and significantly
contribute to their learning and their artistic development, we would love to
provide more of these experiences and opportunities to our students, and with
CHWO's help we can.
6073 On behalf of my colleagues at Humber College in the
Music Department, I would thank you for the opportunity to speak in favour of
CHWO's application, and I thank them for identifying us as part of their
contribution to the development of Canadian talent.
6074 Mrs. Ferbiac apologizes for the typo there. The last
line, the third last word should be "of", not "fo". We are not doing a hip-hop
--- Laughter / Rires
6075 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Boyd, and do
bring our best wishes to Ms Ferbiac.
6076 MR. LENNIE BOYD: I certainly will.
6077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary please.
6078 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Our next intervenor is CARP,
Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus.
6079 THE CHAIRPERSON: And no, you are not Ms
--- Laughter / Rires
6080 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready, and do
let us know who you are.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6081 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: Maybe at the end, after you have
6082 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are keeping all your options
6083 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: That's right.
6084 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is even more exciting than
--- Laughter / Rires
6085 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: Actually, I have given it away in
6086 My name is Bill Gleberzon, and I am the Associate
Executive Director of CARP, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus. Our
president, Lillian Morgenthau, sends her regrets that she is unable to be with
you this afternoon.
6087 I thought that before I spoke about our support in
favour of CHWO, I would just like to tell you something about CARP.
6088 As I said, we are Canada's Association for the
Fifty-Plus, the largest national association of mature Canadians in our country,
representing nearly 400,000 members across Canada, with 233,000 members in
Ontario and nearly 90,000 members in Toronto. Our members are 50 and older,
retired or still working.
6089 We are a non-profit organization. CARP receives no
operating funds from any level of government. Our mission is to express the
concerns of mature Canadians and, indeed, of all Canadians, regardless of
6090 Our mandate is to provide practical recommendations
for the issues we raise. We provide information of interest to 50-plus Canadians
through our award-winning magazine, CARPNews/FIFTY-PLUS, and our Web site,
www.fifty-plus.net. As well, members have access to a host of discounted
savings, such as home and auto insurance, etc.
6091 CARP supports this application very
6092 We are very pleased to be here this afternoon in
support of the application of CWHO Ontario for AM 740 Prime Time Radio to
broadcast throughout the Greater Toronto Area and Southern Ontario. CARP has
previously submitted written support of this application.
6093 The 50-plus population in Toronto numbers about 1.5
million people, representing one-third of the total population of this city. It
is the fastest growing segment of Canada's population, and yet it does not have
a radio station in Toronto that specifically caters to its needs, interests and
6094 Just to reiterate what I have said about the size of
the population, over the next 30 years, over 10 million Canadians will be over
50, and of course a large percentage of those people live here in
6095 Last year, 1999, was designated as the UN's
International Year of the Older Person. Awareness about the senior segment of
the population was raised, but now it is time to turn awareness into action by
allowing the establishment of a radio station that focuses on that segment of
that population and their lives.
6096 According to Section 3 of the Broadcast Act, which
the CRTC is empowered to uphold, Canada's broadcast system is required to
achieve a varied and comprehensive system which balances information and
entertainment for people of all ages, cultures, interests and tastes. Yet, as I
previously noted, there is no station specifically for the 50-plus in regard to
the music, information and discussions that they want to hear -- in other
words, their needs, interests and concerns. PrimeTime Radio will focus on this
demographic and also provide them the opportunity to express opinions and
concerns through specific information, call-in shows and the like.
6097 Research demonstrates that radio is a major source of
information and entertainment for mature Canadians. In one study of the
entertainment habits of 50-plus Canadians, over 90 per cent of respondents
listed "listening to music" as their number one interest. And I can say from our
personal experience that listening to the radio is the major form of listening
to music and getting information for that demographic.
6098 Added value to this application, as you have just
heard, is the commitment to develop Canadian talent among post-secondary music
schools, which we very strongly support.
6099 On behalf of the mature segment of Toronto's
population generally and our members in particular, CARP strongly recommends
that the CRTC approves this application.
6100 Thank you very much.
6101 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gleberzon, and
do bring our best wishes to Ms Morgenthau.
6102 Mr. Secretary please.
6103 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
6104 We will now hear an intervention by Diamond
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6105 MR. JOHN DIAMOND: Good afternoon. I am John
6106 Thank you for allowing me to appear before you this
afternoon. I totally support CHWO and their application for a broadcast license
for AM 740.
6107 My company, Diamond Entertainment Inc., produces
approximately 50 music events per year. We publish a national magazine called
"Big Band World", and we are soon to open Toronto's newest downtown showplace,
The Stardust Dinner Theatre. Our target market for our activities is the same as
CHWO's: the 50-plus market.
6108 This important group is a viable and growing market.
And I am so sorry to use statistics, I am sure you are fed up with them, but
according to Stats Canada, one babyboomer turns 50 every 7.5 seconds. So if we
wait, we will get a whole bunch more. This will continue for the next 20 years.
In respect to radio, I believe the 50-plus are underserved in the GTA area.
Generally speaking, radio stations in Toronto, both all-news and music formats,
tend to ignore the 50-plus, and the term "seniors" actually turns them off.
Stations such as CHFI and CFRB are directing their efforts to lower their
6109 When I approached these stations to assist me in my
events, they are totally not interested in Big Band music, or Frank Sinatra, for
that matter, and it is not of the nature of what they are after. CHWO is the
only station that listens to what I do and supports what I do.
6110 However, studies prove that society as a whole is
re-examining its view of aging. The range of activities and interests for the
50-plus is broadening. Society in effect is "downaging", i.e., people as they
are remaining active, productive and pursuing recreational activities once
thought to be reserved for younger people.
6111 For 44 years, CHWO's track record on AM Radio 1250
has been exemplary. They have been dedicated to serving the aging market. The
station has offered a wide range of programming appealing to the interests of a
mature listening audience, not only in news, sports and information, but they
have been particularly outstanding in respect to the arts and
6112 One distinctive aspect of CHWO is the music that is
played, from the big band sounds of the 40s to the pop hits of the 50s. They are
the only station to offer the 50-plus a mix of the music of their times, which
could range from Duke Ellington and Tommy Dorsey to Barbra Streisand and Céline
Dion. There are no cacophonic sounds of Barenaked Ladies, Moist, or Hole, or
Twisted Sisters, on this station. CHWO can be identified as the leading Big Band
radio station in southern Ontario.
6113 CHWO's policy throughout the years has been to
consistently encourage Canadian performing talent. Their airplay list regularly
showcases the recorded music of local talent, including The Spitfire Band, the
Modernaires out of London, Ontario, the Toronto Galaxy All-Star Band, The
Stardust Big Band out of Southampton, the GTA Big Band, Mark Kenny with the Eddy
Graff Orchestra, the 22-member Canadian tribute to Glenn Miller, the Endangered
Species Big Band, and this country's ambassador's of Big Band jazz, the Boss
6114 Individual Canadian artists are also regularly
featured and given a boost, anyone from Tommy Ambrose, Dick Maloney, Anne
Murray, Oscar Peterson, Rick Sonata, Rick Stephenson, Anna Romain, John
McDermott, The Kidd Sisters, Peter Appleyard, Matthew Arron Dusk, Rita McNeil,
The Voices of Showtime. I particularly chose these performers because normally
they will not be heard on CHFI or any other radio station other than CHWO.
Matthew Arron Dusk is a 22-year-old performer. He is appearing on Monday at one
of our shows. In the last two weeks he has received regular airplay on CHWO, and
this has been a boost to his career. This is quite consistent with the type of
programming that CHWO does.
6115 CHWO has generously sponsored local arts and cultural
events, live concerts and festivals. Along with providing a forum for both
recorded and live music, the station frequently provides valuable commercial and
promotional time to artists and community event organizers. The station takes an
active part in the arts community. Artists, producers and listeners have all
benefited from their efforts.
6116 I can personally vouch that my company, and many
other local entertainment companies like mine, have survived thanks to the
broadcasting services provided by CHWO. More importantly, the musical arts in
Toronto and the surrounding area have benefitted. With the support of CHWO, my
company has been able to produce numerous upscale events at the Royal York
Hotel, at Stagewest Dinner Theatre in Mississauga, the Canadian National
Exhibition, the Ford Centre, 20 events in Toronto's historic Winter Garden
Theatre, and others in Sarnia, Oakville, St. Catharine's and, yes, even our
new Stardust Dinner Theatre will be made possible with the help of CHWO Radio.
Our new endeavour will 25 musicians, dancers and vocalists for over two months,
and will entertain a significant number of 50-plussers.
6117 Another example of CHWO's active participation in the
local arts scene is their pledge to contribute financially to various performing
arts organizations and to participate with our organization in establishing a
high profile Toronto Big Band Festival, coming up shortly, probably this year.
Big Band Music festivals have been successful in attracting large audience in
U.S. cities and also in southern Ontario. Festivals such as the London Royal
Canadian Big Band Music Festival, the Barrie Big Band Festival, the Canadian
Dance Band Festival in Thornbury, its 9th, the annual Canadian Big Band
celebration in Port Elgin, its 6th.
6118 In Toronto alone there are more than 4,000
professional musicians. Therefore, the Toronto Big Band Festival will be a
two-day event held in a downtown Toronto venue, which will showcase at least
four Big Bands and showcase upwards of 100 musicians in live
6119 Next Monday, CHWO and Big Band World Magazine
co-present their 7th annual Valentine's Day Big Band Lovers Ball in the Royal
York Hotel. This music event features two orchestras and four vocalists in two
ballrooms. The board is invited, as my guests, to attend in order to see what is
achievable in respect to providing quality entertainment to a predominantly
over-50-plus audience with the assistance of broadcast sponsors like
6120 THE CHAIRPERSON: Many of us will qualify!
--- Laughter / Rires
6121 MR. JOHN DIAMOND: You will have a great time. Do you
have a valentine? Then you qualify.
6122 I am sure it will come as no surprise that the
attendees to this ball are living examples of "downagers", as they are healthy,
active up-scale boomers and beyond, who either remember or are now just
discovering the music of Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller.
6123 CHWO's programming philosophy has been successful in
terms of audience appreciation and growth. They are the only radio station in
Toronto and surrounding area offering a wide range of programming specifically
directed to the mature listener. Readers of our magazine and attendees at our
events are outspoken in their appreciation and support of CHWO and their
6124 It goes without saying that there is also an economic
need for a radio service directed to the 50-plus market. Companies like mine,
and suppliers of products and services for a maturing citizen, badly need a
broadcast-outlet in southern Ontario which is directed to and regularly attracts
a faithful 50-plus audience. CHWO's Prime Time Radio proposal is directed at our
target age group and is not confined by race, ethnic or religious exclusivity.
CHWO's proposed service addresses the needs of an extremely large and growing
and currently underserved segment of our community.
6125 CHWO Radio is more than qualified to meet the needs
of the expanding 50-plus market. They have proven to be a reliable and
conscientious, and deserve the opportunity to expand their service. The
prime-time programming proposed in CHWO's application offers a diversification
of service and responds to the relevant needs and tastes of a large segment of
our society. As such, the CRTC would be justified in awarding CHWO Radio Limited
the right to broadcast over 740 AM.
6126 Thank you.
6127 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6128 Mr. Secretary please.
6129 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
6130 We will now hear an intervention by Medipac
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6131 MR. DEREK MORRISON: Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
6132 My name is Derek Morrison. I am Vice-President with
Medipac International and standing in today for Mr. Ross Quigley, CEO, who has
been unavoidably taken out of town because of illness in his family.
6133 From Mr. Quigley's text: As Chief Executive Officer
of Medipac International, I feel it is my duty to express my support of CHWO's
bid to broadcast from the vacant 740 AM frequency. Medipac International is one
of Canada's leading suppliers of out-of-country travel insurance. As well, we
are the administrators of the Canadian Snowbird Association and, as such, rely
heavily on the senior snowbird market.
6134 CHWO has been one of our main communication vehicles
for the past seven years. Our research indicates that it is the definitive voice
of the 50-plus demographic in the Toronto area. As a frequent advertiser, we
strongly rely on CHWO, and I have absolutely no doubt that moving to the new
frequency will enhance our marketing efforts.
6135 Unlike other businesses, we cannot spread our
advertising dollars over a number of different formatted stations. Ours is a
niche, that is rapidly expanding, and yet it is one that is overlooked by every
other radio station in the Greater Toronto area.
6136 The majority of Canadian Snowbird Association members
are in the 50-plus demographic, the same demographic group that has put CHWO "on
the map". To move to a stronger frequency would allow a greater number of our
members to enjoy the kind of radio programming they have been searching for and,
until now, just reading about in our CSA news magazine.
6137 The CSA is in the communication business and thus
relies heavily on CHWO to reach our members in the Toronto area. Currently, we
have approximately 100,000 members nation-wide, with 70 per cent living in
southern Ontario. Moving to AM 740 would allow greater numbers of our membership
to enjoy programmes like "Saturday Seniors", a show we have proudly sponsored
for more than seven years, as well as being updated on a weekly basis as to CSA
6138 Our annual membership drive is handled in two ways:
our magazine and through CHWO. As a non-profit organization, we depend on the
strength of our membership to continue preserving and protecting the rights of
all Canadians, particularly the 50-plussers.
6139 With an increased radio signal, tens of thousands of
Ontarians, who may not be aware of CSA's work, will have the opportunity to
learn more about the association and perhaps come into the fold.
6140 The CSA started in 1922 because people believed that
it was time for a change. What began as a political association has evolved into
an organization that is the domestic leader in the preservation of the 50-plus
lifestyle, but it is time to change yet again. We need a stronger, more powerful
voice, and CHWO is the only radio station to target and speak to, and for, the
50-plus community, our community!
6141 At best, CHWO's early morning, evening and night
signal is fraught with interference. At its worst, it is not there at all. CSA
members listen to CHWO and they have told us they are not happy losing their
most important link, "their station", at night.
6142 The 50-plus audience is one of the fastest growing
demographics in this area. It is time to address this market with a strong clear
signal, delivering concise programming dedicated to meeting its audiences'
6143 Considering CHWO's record of excellence, it is the
only real choice to accomplish this feat. It is our opinion that the 50-plus
demographic has long been neglected. CHWO has made incredible inroads, but
remaining at its current frequency is tantamount to tying their hands. Please
allow CHWO to continue its course -- Canadian radio will be the better for
6144 Currently, CHWO is the only radio station in the
Golden Horseshoe servicing this vital market. While programmers skew towards the
prime 25-54 audience, studies show conclusively that it is the "boomers" who are
now in the enviable position of having discretionary income. This affluent
market is serviced by just one Toronto area radio station, CHWO, and,
unfortunately, this station has a signal far too weak to truly reach its
6145 This directly impacts Medipac International, as we
are year-round advertisers on the station and the fact that a good majority of
our target audience is not receiving our message is worrisome.
6146 CHWO's technical limitations severally restrict our
means of communication, as many tens of thousands of Torontonians are not
hearing our message.
6147 Should CHWO receive your permission to broadcast from
the AM 740 frequency, they will then be able to reach the more than 1.2 million
people over the age of 50 in the Toronto area alone. The potential to reach
hundreds of thousands more across southern Ontario presents an unparalleled
opportunity for both CHWO programming and its advertisers.
6148 Thank you.
6149 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Morrison. And do
bring our wishes to Mr. Quigley.
6150 Mr. Secretary please.
6151 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
6152 The next intervention, Great Canadian, Mr. Hunt.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6153 MR. LARRY HUNT: Madam Chair, Commissioners, ladies
6154 My name is Larry Hunt. I represent a company called
Great Canadian Coaches and Holidays, which I co-own with my wife,
6155 First of all, I would like to tell you a little bit
about our company and a background of what we do.
6156 I started in the transportation business, with
seniors, back in 1972, realizing that there was a need to develop tour product
and travel programs for seniors clubs and centres across southern
6157 Over that period since then, I have been extremely
successful in developing a very large following of seniors clubs and centres,
being a leader in our industry and an innovator in our industry. Some of the
things we have done, we have actually programmed entertainment and show programs
in a variety of things for seniors.
6158 We move close to 30,000 people a year on our coaches
and our tours. A good percentage, probably about 80 per cent, of those people
are the 50-plus age group.
6159 We have very beautiful motor coaches that we
transport our seniors on, and these coaches are all dedicated to Canada on
different themes, which an artist paints these beautiful scenes on the
6160 I would like to commend the CRTC. To help promote
(off microphone) and number this coach 1968. It is in our garage being painted
as we speak. This coach is entitled: Canada -- Something to Sing About. We
are going to be commemorating about 40 of our Canadian artists from coast to
6161 It was a tough decision, and certainly that
legislation has helped very much the growth of our industry. My wife, doing the
research, felt that there was possibly over 200 candidates that we could have
put on this motorcoach. So, a job well done, CRTC. I could not pass that
opportunity up. I am going to get you later, though.
6162 We have a very loyal following of seniors clubs, that
I mentioned earlier. The market that we serve stretches from the London to
Oshawa. We are just in the process of expanding our area to include the Windsor
6163 It is easy, because of that geography that I just
mentioned, to understand why we are here in support of this
6164 We are always in search of good corporate partners
and allies to get our message to that senior market. We know that CHWO Radio
also is very creative and innovative in their approach, and they really do have
the senior market, and are very interested in that senior market, just as we
6165 The other reason I am here is really to support some
of the many clients that we have, and hopefully for their listening pleasure we
are going to have a successful application here.
6166 I am going to take you back to a problem that our
community -- I am from Kitchener -- experienced back in 1993, when
CHUM Radio took over CFCA. It was less than a year, and they changed their
format to COOL FM rock format, that certainly got people very, very excited.
6167 I did a little research, because I remember the
controversy very well, as maybe possibly some of you people may recall the
controversy as well. I spent a good deal of time in the Library, because I was
in search of a particular comment that was made by the editor of our
6168 In going through the papers, I found a time period
there stretching from August 22nd to September 19th. There were 17 days that I
found letters to the editor. There were two letters, on average, in those 17
days. Unfortunately, in my research, I did not realize that the change had
actually taken place about ten days earlier. So I do not have letters to the
editor during that period, but I do have some of the controversy here documented
as it was shown in our newspaper.
6169 Ladies and gentlemen, there was complete outrage over
that decision. One citizen, a city planner from the City of Kitchener, stood
outside of one of our theatres one night after a performance and collected 870
signatures to a petition.
6170 I know that we have supported this applicant by
distributing some petitions, that you may have had a chance to see. We put those
on some of our motor coaches during the rather slow period around the Christmas
season. I wish we had more time, because we would fill baskets and baskets of
petitions, because I really strongly feel that this market needs the opportunity
to get the programming they once had.
6171 What I was really looking for when I went to the
Library to do this research was a letter that the editor wrote. The editor made
a comment, I guess in frustration after seeing such a deluge of letters, that he
said, and I remember this, I have never seen this in the history of the paper
and I have been reading the paper since I was about 10 years old.
6172 The editor made a comment he had never seen such a
lot of comments about this issue. He had never seen so many letters to the
editor about the change in format for this radio station, and that he was going
to have to, after seeing all of these letters, finally put a stop to it and say
that the issue had finally been aired and that he would not print any
6173 I think that certainly with the change in that
particular station we lost a close ally in the senior market. There is no doubt
that we have every type of rock and easy listening station imaginable, but there
really is not the opportunity for us to get our message out to the senior
6174 Maybe a lot of us are not of the age where we are
listening to that music, but I think that we all have parents that very much
enjoy that music, and I think we have to think of them, because I think they
have a right to listen to that type of programming.
6175 I believe that there is a huge market there that we
can't ignore, and I know that there are some small radio stations throughout
this market area, but it is a very piecemeal approach. Outside of the Toronto
area, I know that there has been a lot of talk about the need in the Toronto
area. There is a huge need outside of those areas as well.
6176 What I like about the application is that it not only
is covering much of southern Ontario, it even taps into some of that rather
large market on the others side of the border, and some of those American
dollars that we all would certainly love to have.
6177 Thank you for listening. I hope that you give it
careful consideration, because I strongly feel that there is a need.
6178 Thank you.
6179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hunt.
6180 Mr. Secretary please.
6181 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we will now
hear an intervention by Mr. Russ Little.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6182 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Good afternoon, ladies and
gentlemen. My name is Russ Little, and I am appearing before you today as an
intervenor on behalf of CHWO 740 Prime Time Radio.
6183 It would probably be helpful to mention, at this
juncture, that I have neither a business nor a personal relationship with these
applicants. However, I have resided in the Town of Oakville as a corporate
neighbour and listener to CHWO for more than 27 years and, moreover, my
professional career has been more or less equally divided between business
investment and the arts.
6184 I do realize that this particular blend of careers is
not all that unusual nowadays, but the juxtaposition does lend me some degree of
perspective and insight into a few of the questions before the
6185 Briefly, I have had more than 40 years of successful
experience as both an investor/business person and as a full-time, practising
professional studio-musician/musical director. This constitutes, I believe, an
unusual blend of experiences and provides me with a particularly useful and
well-informed background against which I can offer my honest assessment of the
applicant's track record and potential.
6186 No doubt the CRTC has its own criteria and standards.
However, as a layperson, the three most important issues that I can address are:
Demographic need, business viability, and artistic mission or commitment. I hope
you will permit me to examine these issues in the context of my own personal
6187 First, demographic need. No doubt by now you have
been showered with statistics and numbers which have, I am certain, indicated
the impressive size of the group that the applicants intend to serve, together
with the fact that this particular group is the fastest growing demographic
cohort of any significant size in the southern Ontario region, but I would like
to go a little beyond that, if I may.
6188 Very few people are aware of the heartfelt dedication
and love for the music of their era that is felt by this age group. Oakville,
the town where I live and in which the CHWO group is based, is filled with
special interest clubs, amateur dance groups, record exchanges and informal
information groups, all of which serve as rallying points for the many extremely
avid enthusiasts for the music which serves as a touchstone in these people's
6189 In all of my years playing, and enjoying, every
possible kind of music, from classical, country or classic rock --
incidentally, I am an original and founding member of "Lighthouse" -- all
the way over to jazz and swing -- I am a former lead trombone player of the
Woody Herman Orchestra -- I have never found anything remotely resembling
the importance that this particular age group places on the music of their
6190 Put another way, in my personal experience, the
people that the Prime Time Radio group seek to serve, the key group, the
over-50s, seem to feel a more powerful emotional bond to their particular
music -- the music, if you will, of their "salad days" -- than any
other age group that I have encountered in my entire musical carer.
6191 It would be unfortunate indeed to deny them the
opportunity to hear their personal music in a larger forum. Their music has, I
feel, a stronger emotional and nostalgic resonance in these listeners' lives
than that of any other underserved segment of the broadcast audience.
6192 Leaving my text for a moment, I should just mention
to you that I have two children, aged 19 and 17, and both of them, to my
surprise, although perhaps if I examine it, not such a surprise, listen quite a
lot to this kind of music. It really is extremely valid, and these days
contemporary music, which I indulge in to a considerable extent myself, seems to
have washed aside everything else. But there is real, real musical value
6193 Second, business viability. Obviously, a radio
station that does not have all the benefit of experienced, proven and dedicated
management, will not stay in business for long, no matter how lofty its vision
of community or special group service may be. And a failure caused by unproven
or untested management obviously reflects badly on the entire process. The long
and successful record of this team makes the above outcome very remote
6194 My past experience tells me that when you have a
proven management team, such as this, led by a well-motivated and
well-capitalized owner/operator, such as this, with years of profitable
experience behind them, such as this, working within a broadly-appealing and
successful format, such as this, well, then you have a prescription for a viable
and successful broadcast entity.
6195 Third, artistic mission. It has been said that "it is
a poor salesman who doesn't believe in his product", but unfortunately too many
of those in the broadcast industry today have, in my view, no compelling sense
of mission or zeal for their most important product: their format.
6196 Now, I am well aware that the term "artistic mission"
can sound very naive in light of the business realities which face any
competitive enterprise in this new millennium, however I strongly believe that
just such a seemingly "naive" sense of mission is often very sadly lacking these
6197 Business is, of course, in essence about making a
buck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, however most Canadians
feel, with strong justification, I believe, that the operators to whom these
frequencies are entrusted need to be held to a somewhat higher standard inasmuch
as they are being allowed access to a limited resource and, in holding that
resource, they are in a position to wield great power as moulders and arbiters
of public opinion and public taste.
6198 The people who make the decisions at CHWO have, in my
frequent personal experience, a good knowledge of and love for the kind of music
and commentary that their underserved demographic demands. Incidentally, in this
regard I recently discovered, quite by accident, that the president of CHWO,
Michael Cain, has spent considerable time in his youth studying music at a high
6199 In no other area of the business of broadcasting have
I consistently and regularly found a company president, his general manager and,
on occasion their families, in attendance at big band concerts, jazz concerts,
shows and presentations of all kinds, all of these events clearly aspects of the
type of music and general interests that not only they love, but which is
demanded by the demographic group and customer base which is primarily to be
served by CHWO 740.
6200 In summary, based on their past conduct and actions,
my experience of the CHWO Prime Time Radio Group has been, and continues to be,
entirely positive. In every significant forum on which my professional
experience permits me to comment, they have earned high marks.
6201 In terms of previous business success and management
experience, in terms of ongoing commitment to serve their target audience and
marketplace, in terms of true, personal commitment to the music espoused by
their mandate, indeed by every single criteria that my professional experience
enables me to judge, the CHWO 740 Prime Time Radio team comes up a
6202 Thank you very much.
6203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6204 Mr. Little, Commissioner Williams has a question for
6205 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are not generally asking
questions because of time constraints, but today in our schedule we have a
little bit of extra time, so we were just curious as to whether the music of
Lighthouse, as far as you know, is played on CHWO.
6206 MR. RUSS LITTLE: As far as I know, the music of
Lighthouse is not played there. So I have no ulterior motive.
--- Laughter / Rires
6207 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
6208 MR. RUSS LITTLE: That of course is what you were
seeking to ascertain.
6209 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, no. I was just wondering
where we could hear your music. Thank you.
6210 MR. RUSS LITTLE: On one of those Pop stations
--- Laughter / Rires
6211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Little. I hope
you enjoyed our constitutional question.
6212 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Indeed I did. Indeed I did.
--- Laughter / Rires
6213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
6214 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Thank you.
6215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary please.
6216 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam
6217 We now have an intervention from Mr. Daniel
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
MR. DANIEL WOODS: Madam Chairperson -- I will correct my typing --
Members of the Commission. Thank you for this opportunity to address this
hearing to determine the future of AM 740.
6218 My name is Dan Woods, and this is my first appearance
at a formal CRTC hearing, so I apologize for my nervousness. In fact, I have
never even been to traffic court! Well, I went once but the cop didn't show up,
so I didn't have to pay the ticket or speak.
6219 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Woods, you can relax! And do not
speak too quickly.
--- Laughter / Rires
6220 MR. DANIEL WOODS: I have read this speech three or
four times, a couple of times under 10, a couple of times over, so I am a little
nervous as to whether I will make it.
6221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't worry about it. Worry about
the poor court reporter!
--- Laughter / Rires
6222 MR. DANIEL WOODS: It is a pleasure to be here, and I
really do feel compelled to appear here today to speak on behalf of the CHWO
application, because I generally consider it to be an outstanding use of the AM
6223 It was suggested that I start by telling you a little
about myself. I am a third generation Torontonian. I now live with my wife and
children in Oakville. My parents continue to live in the home that my mother's
father built when he first arrived in Canada, just a short walk south of this
hotel. I attended Humber College in Toronto, and I majored in Theatre
6224 During my working career, I have had the pleasure of
working as an actor, an on-air broadcaster, and a radio sales exec. I suppose
that my greatest success so far as an actor would have to have been as a regular
cast member in the Degrassi television series for over five years. Recently, I
have stepped up to become a principal owner and a performer in two independent
television series now showing throughout the U.S. and Canada.
6225 Throughout my years as an actor I worked on-air for a
number of radio stations in this area. You might say that working in radio was
my way of driving a cab. I originally started out as an on-air personality in
Oakville on CHWO and its sister station, CJMR, owned by the applicant that I am
endorsing here today. I have worked at stations in Hamilton, Oshawa, and even
had the pleasure of hosting a nationally syndicated radio program that aired
live on over 20 stations, from Cornerbrook to Yellowknife.
6226 When the Degrassi series ended, I worked for over
five years as a sales representative for two stations under three different
owners. I sold advertising and remote broadcast events for CHWO, Redmond
Broadcasting, and finally Telemedia in Toronto.
6227 As you may have noticed, I am not over 50, not like
the oldtimers like Paul McCartney and Mic Jagger.
--- Laughter / Rires
6228 MR. DANIEL WOODS: I don't sell anything to the
50-plus market, and I have no music that will be played on that station. So why
would I support a station that is targeting a mature audience? I clearly do not
fall into the "target demographic" of CHWO's format. However I am a regular
listener, and I have been since working for that station back in 1985. I cannot
say as much for other stations I have worked for.
6229 I am a forty-year-old husband with two wonderful
children, a daughter age 8 and a son age 5. And we are all fans of the station.
During one of my recent employment contracts I was required to move my family to
Don Mills in Toronto's east end for one year. One of the worst aspects of my
time on that side of the city was that I could not receive CHWO on my radio
after sunset, which is a substantial period of time, especially during the
winter as it meant that all my travel to and from work was affected daily. The
CHWO signal was so poor that I received better reception from New York City's
nostalgia station, WQEW.
6230 I imagine that you have heard the phrase "the sounds
or music of a generation", which unfortunately implies that an age group owns a
style of music. This couldn't be further from the truth! A specific generation
may have been the first exposed to a style of music, but no one has title to it
except that artist, and even that artist has given their music to anyone that
wants to enjoy it.
6231 I am pleased to say that at the age of 8, my daughter
Allison loves music by artists like Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, and Cab
Calloway. I am also pleased to say that as a result of listening to CHWO, my
daughter is very aware that jazz great Louis Prima is not a singing Orangutan, a
he is portrayed by Disney in the movie "The Jungle Book". She knows this in part
because I try to expose my children to as much music variety as possible both at
home and in the car, where she often hears CHWO. She has heard other music by
6232 Another positive aspect to a station that plays a
nostalgia format is that you hear music from great musicals and "Standards" as
an intricate part of their format, a perfect complement to Toronto's live
theatre scene. Toronto has the second largest number of live theatres in North
America, and we have the third largest live theatre industry in the English
speaking world. Unfortunately, no commercial stations in Toronto choose to
highlight that unique aspect of our city in part, I believe, because of the
strong influence of radio consultants on the Toronto market, and the
broadcasters, and that our theatre status has escaped their notice, which is
quite understandable. Consultants are very busy people who program stations all
over the continent from their offices in LA or New York, and probably consider
Toronto just another large North American city. After all, we do have a
professional baseball team in the American League!
6233 If I sound a little bit cynical, it's because I am.
This is a great city, with a diverse and vibrant culture that needs to be
integrated and exposed to all its citizens, not hidden or bottled up on its own
frequency under the guise of ethnic programming; that is isolationism, not
6234 Peter Ustinov was quoted as saying: "Toronto is
another New York... if New York could be run by the Swiss!"
6235 This city needs a full range of broadcasters that
expound its virtues and heritage through its music. Instead, it is becoming
homogenous. For example, I know that Toronto did have music before 1955, but
that music does not apply to Toronto's only Oldies rock station format. More and
more music stations have become Rock -- Soft Rock, Easy Rock, Lite Rock, or
Classic Rock. They have used American spelling for "Lite" and called the last
letter of the alphabet "Zee", as in Z97.3, where I did work.
6236 Recently, the Toronto produced Broadway bound musical
"Showboat" was playing to sell-out audiences at the Ford Centre. Sadly, no
Toronto station added any of the music from the play to their regular play list,
including stations that were sponsoring it. "Phantom of the Opera", "Cats" and
"Les Misérables" are just a few of the Canadian cast recordings that do not make
it to the airwaves in this city. The list of musicals that sell out night after
night in Toronto is extensive. Unfortunately, the list of radio stations that
will not play their music is just as long!
6237 I know that, without exception, almost every
applicant that comes before these committees promises to provide diversity and
uniqueness to Toronto radio. Regrettably, they return here at what often seems
like their first opportunity to cry poor so they can request a format change or,
worse, a reduction in Canadian content, solely for the purpose of increasing the
broadcaster's profitability. The result is that Toronto is given a homogenous
6238 So I am encouraged and eager to come before this
committee to endorse an applicant who, I believe, with their proposed format has
already survived for many years on the perimeter of the Toronto market and is
essentially asking only to have a signal increase. CHWO is clearly asking to
provide the community with a format that has already proved its diversity,
popularity and profitability. Best of all, they already have Toronto listeners,
who often go to extremes to tune in the signal.
6239 When you consider the recent history of applicants
who have come before these committees and the licenses which have been granted
for new stations since the mid-80s, only one has clearly maintained its original
proposal, specifically, CFMX, who as a regional broadcaster with a small Toronto
audience, proposed a format already in use on Toronto's eastern perimeter. And
while I was not fully in favour of a 24-hour classical station at the time, I
tip my hat to the station's management for maintaining its integrity.
6240 Unfortunately, other broadcasters have made proposals
that were less than successful in this market. In the mid-80s, Redmond
Broadcasting promised a new "soft and light" easy listening station for Toronto.
At the time, it was presented as what was truly needed in Toronto. By the early
90s, that station had changed to incorporate the term "Rock" as part of its
image. Today, that original applicant has sold the station and the licence for
millions of dollars, and the station now competes with a near identical sound to
6241 In the mid-80s, the Commission issued a Country FM
licence to Rawlco Broadcasting, under the call letters KISS FM. The entry of
that new broadcaster into this market had, and continues to have, a dramatic
effect on Toronto radio.
6242 The Country AM broadcaster that existed at the time
abandoned the format, unable to compete with the sound quality of the new FM
station. Even the Country station in Hamilton was affected, losing staff and
listeners to the new FM station.
6243 It is ironic, then, that after only a few years there
is no longer a Country station on AM or FM in Toronto, and that again the
original broadcaster who acquired the license has sold their interest, for
substantial sums, to a large communications company.
6244 That new station today is playing Urban Dance, a
format that is competing against two other perimeter broadcasters who, according
to my sources, are now also struggling financially, in part due to direct
competition from the new Toronto based signal. I find it sad to think that in
the case of both of these licenses existing perimeter broadcasters were here
applying for the frequency to improve their position on the dial.
6245 At any given time in Toronto there are existing radio
stations struggling for audiences, revenues, or both. I am sure that as members
of this committee you have heard every one of their sad financial stories during
their licence renewals. Clearly, it should be these struggling stations that
experiment with bringing in new formats to Toronto.
6246 I have no doubt that some executive at one of these
struggling stations is currently looking at the formats being proposed at this
hearing, and will recommend implementing one or more back at their station. And
why not? The proposals presented here are all researched extensively and are
most likely implemented with some degree of success elsewhere in the U.S. or
6247 Please understand that I am not here to be a Monday
morning quarterback, or to overstate the obvious. I refer to these two failed
licenses to highlight the most recent successes.
6248 These successes have provided Torontonians with what
was promised by the broadcaster. And the broadcaster has been rewarded for
staying on the fringe in this region. When this Commission has provided the
means for those broadcasters to improve, we have all benefited. The recent move
of the CBC is a perfect example of a broadcaster who is improving radio that is
currently being offered, rather than bringing in a new format.
6249 Toronto's demand for a mature or nostalgia format is
clearly strong and has been for a number of years. CHWO already has a base
audience and established advertising revenue in the west end of the GTA.
Currently, it is successfully slicing into this market from the perimeter. I see
no reason why CHWO would not be successful at entertaining more people further
to the east, west and north, in every age demographic, on 740 AM, and at the
same time keep their application promise to this community.
6250 Finally, while this committee fairly contemplates all
of the applications for the AM 740 signal, consider that the over-50 population
is growing faster than any other segment in Canada. They need a voice of their
own in this city, and you have very few opportunities left to provide it to
6251 I thank you again for the time and consideration you
have given me. If you choose, it would be my pleasure to answer any questions or
respond to any comments you may have.
6252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Woods, for
your thoughtful presentation.
6253 Mr. Secretary please.
6254 MR. PETER CUSSONS: We will now hear the intervention
by Ms Anna Romain.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
6255 MS ANNA ROMAIN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
6256 My name is Anna Romain. I am an artist. I am a
singer, a jazz singer, Big Band singer. I am here to support the application of
CHWO for Prime Time Radio.
6257 I did not write anything, I did not want to prepare
anything. I wanted to just speak to you the way I feel.
6258 This morning I was looking at the television, and
they were giving horoscopes. My horoscope today said that "you are able to
influence people and their decisions", so I thought, well, I will not write
anything, I will just state how I feel.
6259 In 1995, it was my great pleasure to be introduced to
Mr. Michael Cain. I didn't know Michael Cain, and Michael Cain didn't know me. I
lived in Oakville for a number of years, and I had a day job.
6260 I went to Michael Cain and I said, "I am a singer,
and I would like to do a concert, and I would like you to sponsor it". And he
said, "Well, why should I?", and I said, "Well, because I am a singer". And he
said, "Well, who is backing you up?" And I said, "Well, look at the list of
musicians that are going to be my backup musicians". And one of those musicians
was here this afternoon, Mr. Russ Little. When Michael Cain saw the name Russ
Little, people like Gord Evans, Rick Wilkins, and Norman Amadeo, to name a few,
he said, "Well, I don't know who you are, but I know who they are. So you must
be in very good company".
6261 So I said, "Does that mean that you will sponsor my
show?" And he said, "We will give it a try". And he did. From that moment on,
Michael Cain, CHWO and the family of CHWO have been wonderful to me as an
6262 That station, they walk the walk, they talk the talk.
They are committed and dedicated to the advancement and the support of Canadian
artists, artists such as myself, who would never have the opportunity to be
heard on radio by any of the Toronto radio stations, artists such as myself who
are able to make a telephone call and ask the station manager to give them a
phone call and he will call them back, and not an artist who calls a station and
only gets as far as the receptionist at the desk and you don't get a return
6263 This station is committed to, as I said, Canadian
talent, and they are open to suggestions and ideas that young artists, and new
artists, have to offer. As I said, over the years Michael Cain -- and I
keep saying "Michael Cain" because I can't separate the two. I am being really
personal, and that is the only way I can be, so that you can understand the
importance of what I am going to say next.
6264 Because of this station and because of Mr. Cain, he
has given me courage and -- what's the word I am looking for --
confidence to do something very drastic in my life and, as he puts it, "at this
time in your life". I don't know what he means by that. But I quit my day job in
December, to pursue this career that I have wanted to pursue for the past 20
6265 I have been singing for the past 20 years, but only
the people that tune in and that are able to hear and listen to CHWO know who
Anna Romain is. And that's okay because, as I said, I have had the courage to
quit my day job, which I have done, and by so doing, the confidence that I now
have within myself as an artist to pursue my career comes from the fact that I
know that if I need help, if I need sponsorship, I can call on a station such as
CHWO, and I can refer to other stations in Toronto, if I may add, such as CJRT
FM, which is the Ryerson station, and say, "Look at what CHWO has done for me as
an artist over the years", and not just me but also other artists that live in
the city. And that is beginning to happen.
6266 So to you, Members of the CRTC, it is very important
to listeners, it is very important to artists, that we have a station that is
committed and dedicated to Canadian talent. That is one aspect I wanted to speak
6267 The second thing I would like to say is, in my day
job I provided service for seniors. I provided a volunteer transportation
program for seniors. What that meant was that I visited a lot of seniors in
their homes, and all the seniors that I visited in their homes, in the region of
Alton, over the past ten years, 99 per cent of the seniors who have radios
listen to CJRT FM. They smile when they hear their favourite songs. They smile
and they say how happy they are that they can hear and listen to something that
is so familiar to them. That is important for well-being, it is important for
6268 Even seniors that are ill and people who are terminal
or in palliative care, when you go into their homes, the radio station that is
on is CHWO.
6269 I implore you, I ask you, to please listen to and pay
attention to this group. They need this station. I need this station. We all
need the station.
6270 Thank you.
6271 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6272 Thank you to all participants. This will complete our
day. I will give you a bird's eye view of the week, in the hope that this will
help you plan.
6273 Tomorrow we will hear the intervenors to the Gary
Farmer application. We will not hear the intervenor to Durham until later,
because there is a personal problem that prevents the intervenor from appearing
in the chronology, as suggested.
6274 We will then hear, again on Tuesday, the intervenors
to CKMW, et l'intervenant à la Coopérative de Toronto, and the intervenors to
the McNabb application. Although the agenda is not showing that, there are three
intervenors to the McNabb application.
6275 We will begin, on Wednesday morning, with the
intervenors to the Jolly application, followed by the intervenors to the Auguste
application, and to the Infinity application.
6276 On Thursday morning, we will hear the intervenors to
the CHIN application, and after lunch we will hear all the applicants in reply,
which will leave Friday for the Dufferin Communications application, and
6277 Hopefully we can pursue in accordance with this
agenda. You can pass the good word, if you can, to your friends, it not, to your
6278 Thank you, and have a good evening.
6279 This will complete our day. Nous reprendrons demain
matin à 9 heures.
--- L'audience est ajournée à 1545, pour reprendre
le mardi 8 février 2000 à 0900 / Whereupon
the hearing adjourned at 1545, to resume
on Tuesday, February 8, 2000, at 0900