ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Toronto, ON - 2000/02/07

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/

DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 7, 2000 le 7 février 2000

Volume 6

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente

M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère

J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller

R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller

C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 7, 2000 le 7 février 2000

Volume 6

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

PHASE II - INTERVENTION BY/PAR

CHWO Ontario Inc. 1117

Mr. Gary Farmer 1118

Durham Radio Inc. 1118

CKMW Radio Limited 1126

Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc. 1136

Mr. Andy McNabb 1136

Mr. Denham Jolly 1137

Mr. Arnold Auguste 1143

Fairchild Radio Toronto Ltd. 1144

914258 Ontario Limited 1150

Radio 1540 Limited 1162

PHASE III - INTERVENTION BY/PAR

CIRPA 1177

CIRC Radio Inc. 1189

Dufferin Communications Incorporated 1219

Mr. Jack Miller 1236

J. Lyman Potts 1248

Humber School of Performing Arts 1254

CARP 1259

Diamond Entertainment Inc. 1264

Medipac International Inc. 1271

Great Canadian Coaches and Holidays 1276

Mr. Russ Little 1281

Mr. Daniel Woods 1289

Ms Anna Romain 1300

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Monday, February 7, 2000

at 0915 / L'audience reprend le lundi

7 février 2000 à 0915

5389 THE CHAIRPERSON: We apologize for the delay. I hope you all had an extra cup of coffee.

5390 Go ahead, Mr. Secretary.

5391 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, and good morning everyone.

5392 We have now reached what we call Phase II of the competitive process. At this point in the proceedings, we invite our competing radio applicants to come back one at a time, in the same order that we called them last week, to intervene on one another's applications.

5393 Again, as I mentioned I believe at the beginning at the hearing, we are allowing people ten minutes for this exercise.

5394 Before I introduce the first applicant, I would like to echo a message that the Chairperson mentioned a couple of times last week.

5395 We would really appreciate it again if members of the audience could please switch off all their cell phones and pagers and so on. It can be distracting during presentations and questions, so we would really appreciate your cooperation on that, and I thank you.

5396 Without further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce, for intervention, YTV Canada Inc.

--- Pause/Pause

5397 MR. PETER CUSSONS: It would seem that YTV is not with us, or perhaps they have no comment to make. In that case, I will introduce our next applicant, CHWO Ontario Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5398 MR. MICHAEL CAIN: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Good morning, Madam Chairperson and Commissioners.

5399 We believe that our concerns with out competitors' applications for AM-740, and their respective shortcomings, have already been dealt with in Phase I of this public hearing, so we too will forego the opportunity to intervene against them, and instead look forward to seeing you at the rebuttal phase and Phase III.

5400 Thank you.

5401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Cain.

5402 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I would now like to invite Mr. Gary Farmer to come forward and present his intervention please.

5403 Mr. Farmer.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5404 MR. GARY FARMER: Good morning, everyone, Madam Chair, Commissioners. I would just take this opportunity to say good morning and happy Monday.

5405 I do not have any comment at this time, but I am glad to be here, and will continue to participate.

5406 Thank you.

5407 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

5408 Mr. Secretary, please.

5409 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Next on our list, Durham Radio Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5410 MR. STEVE KASSAY: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

5411 Does the time from the first three accrue to our presentation?

5412 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Probably not!

5413 MR. STEVE KASSY: We are prepared to say a few things this morning. Mr. Kirk is in transit and on his way, and we are hopeful he will be joining us in just a few minutes from now.

5414 My name is Steve Kassy. I am the Operations Manager and Program Director at CJKX-FM Ajax. With me again this week is our General Sales Manager Steve McCauley.

5415 Thank you for hearing us this morning. Bearing in mind the specific items and issues of concern to the Commission, as noted by Chairperson Wylie at the commencement of these proceedings one week ago today, we wish to begin our comments by addressing diversity. Our comments this morning are interventions against certain competing applications for the Toronto radio stations.

5416 We begin by addressing diversity or no diversity of service. In their submissions, B. Denham Jolly, whom we will refer to here as "Jolly", and Arnold A. Auguste, to whom we will refer to as "Auguste", clearly admit that much of their proposed "urban" music is presently heard on originating stations in the Toronto market.

5417 It is our contention that the licensing of the Jolly or Auguste applications will not add to diversity in the market. Obviously, replication of the format will be competitive with in-market stations, namely CISS-FM, CING-FM, and CIDC-FM.

5418 In contrast, diversity of service: Durham Radio's proposed Country format is distinct and unduplicated. Clearly, Country widens the distinct choice of format services available in this market.

5419 In terms of independent ownership, concerning the Jolly, Auguste and Farmer applications  -- the Gary Farmer application we will refer to as the "Farmer" application today -- Durham Radio Inc. is an independent broadcasting operator. Our application is not connected in any way with another broadcaster in the Toronto market.

5420 The Jolly application is obviously 29.9 per cent owned by Standard Radio, one of Canada's largest broadcasting groups which already has a major presence in Toronto through the ownership of CFRB-AM and CKFM-FM. Licensing the Jolly application would not provide diversity of voices in the market because of this association.

5421 In addition, control of the Jolly enterprise (if licensed) could change very early in its license term if it fails to meet its plan and triggers provisions in shareholders agreement. We would refer the Commission to section 3.04 of their proposed agreement.

5422 The Auguste and Farmer applications are effectively tied together with their common association to Newcap Broadcasting and interlocking benefit proposals, proposed co-location, sharing of facilities, and future initiatives.

5423 In terms of demand, or no quantifiable proof of demand, in their submissions, Farmer, Jolly and Auguste fail to conclusively prove demand for their services. For Jolly and Auguste, repatriation is being depended upon. However, complete repatriation of out-of-market tuning is not only unlikely, but also not substantial enough to satisfy their projections.

5424 To achieve their projected market shares, we believe that substantial tuning will have to be transferred from existing Toronto based stations, namely, CISS-FM, CIDC-FM, and CING-FM.

5425 In contrast, quantifiable proof of demand, Durham Radio proves that there is an unserved Toronto audience of 360,000 people. The Country format satisfied a quantifiable demand.

5426 In terms of soundness of revenue projections and sustainability of the business plan, specifically regarding the Jolly and Auguste applications, these two applications project very significant tuning market shares: 3.4 per cent-plus, and 6 to 8 per cent, both in the 18-54 demo. And these underpin their business plans.

5427 We believe these market shares are aggressive, given that the three stations -- CISS, CING and CIDC -- already operate in similar formats in the Toronto market, with music overlaps between them.

5428 Secondly, both the Jolly and Auguste applications cite repatriation of tuning and ad revenue from WBLK-FM in Buffalo. As a significant part of their plans, we vigorously dispute this assertion, for two reasons: (1) WBLK-FM has negligible tuning in Toronto, referring to Spring '99s BBM, it shows 0.7 per cent, and MobilTRACK tuning, judged in December of '99, shows less than 0.1 per cent of in-car tuning; (2) WBLK-FM derives negligible revenue from the Toronto market. Jolly cites 1.0 to 1.5 million dollars, and Auguste cites 2 million dollars of potential revenue repatriation from WBLK.

5429 We contacted Jeff Silver, the VP and GM of WBLK-FM in Buffalo, and he confirmed that WBLK-FM's Canadian revenues were significantly less than $500,000 Cd, and that includes revenues from Niagara based accounts.

5430 Our conclusion is that the revenue expectations in the Jolly and Auguste applications are based on unsound, regarding WBLK-FM's revenue, and very aggressive assumptions.

5431 Regarding the Farmer application, the lack of clarity in connection with potential audience size and revenue sources from fundraising and advertising raises doubts about the viability of this application.

5432 We have, as part of this, a specific technical intervention concerning Mr. Farmer's application. Durham Radio opposes this application, and opposes Farmer's contention that 106.5 MHz will provide a usable Toronto signal. 106.5 MHz is a co-channel, the same frequency, to WYRK in Buffalo, New York. WYRK is a full Class B station, 50,000 Watts at full height. Its signal on 106.5 is widely available throughout Toronto on a consistent basis.

5433 Our general technical issues, to regress for one moment, is that 93.5 and 106.3 are indeed the very, very, very last FM allotments in Toronto, unless Industry Canada does change its rules. We wish to make note that there three very usable AM frequencies available in Toronto. They would be 740, for which applicants have applied, 1610, and 1670 KHz.

5434 We believe the Commission should award the FM for the best use: a mainstream music format that is not currently available in Toronto.

5435 Community based, eclectic, niche formats which rely on a much higher level of spoken word content, such as CKMW's Rainbow Radio or Farmer's Aboriginal Voices Radio, could and should be accommodated on the AM band.

5436 Back to the explication of WYRK explaining it is a co-channel on 106.5. Co-channel is the most destructive interference to FM broadcasting, and it is experienced where the offending co-channel station's signal is one-tenth the strength of the desired station.

5437 WYRK's coverage in Toronto is much better than predicted by conventional engineering methods because of the effect of Lake Ontario, which lies between Buffalo an Toronto. It basically negates the distance between the two.

5438 With this intervention we are attaching, as Appendix 1, a study by our consulting engineer, Wayne A. Stacey, which provides his expert opinion that WYKR-FM will cause "significant areas of interference outside of the proposed 106.5 MHz 3mV/m city grade contour if this station is licensed".

5439 The Commission will recall the problems faced by CIRV-FM ten years ago in a similar situation. It suffered severe co-channel interference from a much lower powered Buffalo station. Subsequently, CIRV had to change frequencies.

5440 Our conclusion to this technical matter, therefore, is that Durham Radio Inc. concludes that the proposed use of 106.5 MHz in Toronto will not deliver the coverage predicted by the applicant.

5441 You will find in your package also the Appendix from Mr. Stacey.

5442 Thank you for your time. That concludes our presentation on this matter. We would be more than pleased to entertain any questions you may have.

5443 Thank you.

5444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it a problem that Mr. Kirk not here yet, or were you able to deliver all the messages by yourselves?

5445 MR. STEVE KASSY: The complete message is delivered.

5446 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are satisfied that you had the opportunity --

5447 MR. STEVE KASSY: Quite satisfied. Thank you.

5448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5449 Mr. Secretary.

5450 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5451 I would now like to invite CKMW Radio Limited.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5452 MR. BILL EVANOV: Good morning, Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission. My name is Bill Evanov, President of CKMW Radio Limited. I am joined, for this presentation, by Carmela Laurignano, General Manager of Rainbow Radio and Vice-President of CIAO Radio and CIDC-FM.

5453 To her left is Bob Linney, President of Cue Two Communications, the consulting firm that has been involved in the development of our application for 93.5, and conducted the market research for Rainbow Radio.

5454 It is our understanding that there are four requirements for consideration in assigning the 93.5 FM frequency, and we would like to address each of them in presenting our concerns about two of the other applications.

5455 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: It is our view that one statio, and only one station, meets all of the criteria, and that is the proposal we have presented for Rainbow Radio. It provides diversity in proposing to serve a completely new radio market. Rainbow Radio also represents the best use of an FM frequency with restricted downtown coverage.

5456 Let me begin our analysis with the application filed by CanDance.

5457 We oppose this application, on the basis that it adds no diversity to the market. When we examined the music play list provided by CanDance and compared it to what other FM stations, especially CIDC-FM, already offer in the market, we found significant overlap. In our written intervention, we identified and documented the high level of duplication of titles and artists.

5458 We also contend that the music proposed for airplay on CanDance duplicates existing play lists, in part, on two other radio stations: CISS-FM and CING-FM. The proposal by CanDance also ignores the fact that several stations, including CIAO, CHIN-AM, CHIN-FM, as well as CIRV, CKLN and CIUT, provide programming that addresses diversity in the market by targeting very specific market segments within the Afro-Caribbean and Canadian cultural mosaic.

5459 MR. BOB LINNEY: We would also like to raise the issue of best use of the frequency and the audience projections made by CanDance. When we put together our original research, we had Statistics Canada map out both the 3 and 5 millivolt contours of the signal. We did this not only to identify the population size, but also the composition of the area.

5460 According to StatsCan, there are an estimated 274,000 Visible Minority Blacks in the Toronto CMA, or 6.5 per cent of the Toronto CMA population of 4.2 million. The population within the 3 millivolt contour is approximately 1.2 million. Of that population, only 81,750 are visible minority black, which represents 6.4 per cent of the population in the area. This distribution is in line with the overall market percentage, but in fact means the 93.5 frequency only reaches 29 per cent of the Visible Minority Black population within the Toronto CMA.

5461 Mr. Auguste has himself stated that the 93.5 frequency would not be sufficient to serve the market he has identified. He has asked not only for 93.5, but AM-740 as well. We oppose the dedication of two signals to the same format, and suggest that the best use of 93.5 would be effectively to serve a downtown audience. The overlap between the contours of 740 and 93.5 would in essence waste part of the limited broadcast spectrum.

5462 The 93.5 FM frequency does not meet the needs of the audience in the format as filed in the CanDance application, and the applicant has confirmed this fact by proposing a modified signal pattern to make the frequency match the market.

5463 In addition to not correctly identifying the location of their core market, we believe the applicant's projected potential audience is over estimated. When we look at the reality of Toronto radio today and the shares achieved by existing and experienced broadcasters, only three stations in the Toronto CMA achieve a share of anywhere between 8 to 12, according to the 1999 fall BBM. A new station with a format duplicating in whole or in part the formats of stations already serving the market, on a frequency that cannot reach the entire CMA, would be pulling off nothing short of a minor broadcasting miracle to achieve their projected numbers.

5464 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Which leads us to our third concern: market impact.

5465 CanDance has estimated a market share of 8, but projected revenues of only 2.1 million. At that audience level, CanDance would be the fourth biggest station in the largest radio market in Canada. We fail to understand how an 8 share would result in such small revenues. In fact, if CanDance can deliver even half of this audience, it would dwarf what several CMA stations are delivering now and make it a serious competitor beyond the format category it has defined.

5466 As experienced broadcasters, we know what revenues we are able to generate on a two share, and question whether the issue of market impact has been successfully addressed by this applicant.

5467 The fourth requirement in assessing an application is Canadian Talent Development. Two specific aspects of the applicant's proposed contribution to Canadian Talent, we would argue, should not be considered in the analysis of this application.

5468 First, the majority of the proposed CanDance investment in Canadian talent development would actually go to another non-profit broadcaster -- more than 65 per cent of the proposed annual contribution. This investment goes to the development of another Canadian radio station, rather than the performing artists.

5469 This same argument should also apply to the CanDance proposal to hire a Canadian Talent Development Co-Ordinator. While the position certainly has merit, the act of including the annual salary of a staff member is normally an administrative expense.

5470 MR. BILL EVANOV: We would like to draw the Commission's attention to the major involvement of NewCap as the principal investor. Included in the ownership description in the application are procedures, we suggest, that would give NewCap full control of the license if the new company defaults on any repayment schedule after the first license term. We believe this means the actual control of the licence would not be clear until the station is into its second license period, some time after the year 2008.

5471 And finally, on page 561 of the CanDance application and again in the oral presentation, the applicant describes an arrangement between CanDance and Aboriginal Voices that would include but not be limited to the sharing of sales, accounting/bookkeeping, and other administrative functions.

5472 It is our view that pursuant to Public Notice 1999-176, this arrangement may constitute a local management agreement and, as such, would both have to be considered as part of this application and possibly as a condition of license. We see no reference to this in the filed application.

5473 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, we have similar concerns about some aspects of the Milestone application. I would like to use the same four points in analysing their proposal.

5474 We oppose this application on the basis that they do not add diversity to the market. As was the case with CanDance, when we examined the list of artists provided by Milestone and compared it to what other CHR format stations already offer in the market, we found significant overlap.

5475 Milestone notes in its own research that 24 per cent of its potential listeners now consider CISS-FM as their favourite station, again pointing out the close music play list and genre of Milestone and existing stations.

5476 MR. BILL LINNEY: We have the same questions about signal coverage and potential audience provided in the estimates of the Milestone application. All applicants, including Mr. Jolly, filed an identical contour map provided by the CBC. In Mr. Jolly's written application and again in his response to deficiencies, he notes that a waiver of interference would be required to make effective use of this signal to reach his market.

5477 In discussions with our engineers, consultant Doug MacCaulay, well known to the Commission, confirmed that only the 3 millivolt is a reliable measure. It is their contention, and the basis of our intervention, that in a built-up urban market like Toronto, the 0.5 millivolt signal is unreliable. However, in reply to our intervention and in his presentation to the Commission, Mr. Jolly contended that the signal went well beyond the 0.5 millivolt contour, yet offered no technical evidence.

5478 In our written intervention filed against Milestone we did provide a map, prepared by Compusearch using Statistics Canada data, showing how the 93.5 FM frequency does not cover the target market for Milestone.

5479 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Which leads us to the issue of market impact. Milestone has estimated a market share of 3.4, with projected revenues of 3.9 million. Of major concern is the applicant's projection that close to 90 per cent of these revenues would come from existing radio stations. Of all the applicants for 93.5, Milestone projects the biggest revenue and business impact on existing area broadcasters.

5480 The fourth question about area is that of Canadian Talent Development. We note that Milestone has also included a salary position in their contribution, as well as elements usually considered as programming expenses.

5481 MR. BILL EVANOV: We are also concerned with the proposed ownership and operations of Milestone. We would like to draw the Commission's attention to the major involvement of Standard Broadcasting as the principal investor. In addition to providing millions of dollars in direct investment, Milestone says that it will rely heavily on Standard Broadcasting in areas such as sales, marketing and promotion.

5482 Conventional business norms for synergies imply efficiencies gained from streamlined or combined operations within the same company. We would suggest what Milestone is proposing to be better classified as an LMA under the terms and conditions the CRTC has been using. The terms of this LMA have not been included in the application.

5483 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, to quickly summarize:

5484 There are no programming or service enhancements for Toronto from either CanDance or Milestone.

5485 Both applicants lack solid business plans due to either faulty identification of market or improbable audience projections.

5486 Market impact has been misrepresented or misunderstood by both of these applicants.

5487 Commitments to Canadian Talent Development by both applicants fail to meet the guidelines and standards set out by the Commission.

5488 In both applications, ownership is unclear and what they have described as synergies may be, de facto, LMAs.

5489 As a result of these concerns, CKMW Radio Limited, on behalf of Rainbow Radio, wishes to intervene in opposition to these applications, and would welcome any questions you may have about our concerns.

5490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. Laurignano and Mr. Evanov, and colleague.

5491 Mr. Secretary, please.

5492 LE SECRÉTAIRE: Merci, madame la Présidente.

5493 La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5494 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Quelques-uns de mes collègues vont aller chercher...

5495 M. MARTEL: Nous n'avons rien à ajouter à ce moment précis. C'est ce que je voulais dire, que la Coopérative préfère conserver ses arguments pour la Phase III et la Phase IV. À ce moment-ci, nous n'avons rien à ajouter.

5496 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je vous remercie, Monsieur.

5497 Mr. Secretary, please.

5498 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5499 I would now like to invite 1158556 Ontario Ltd. to present any intervention it would like to.

--- Pause / Pause

5500 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I don't believe Mr. De Brabant is with us.

5501 I would then call upon Mr. Andy McNabb to present his intervention.

5502 Mr. McNabb, please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5503 MR. ANDY McNABB: Good morning, Commissioners.

5504 Toronto Christian Radio respectfully declines the opportunity to intervene against our competitors.

5505 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McNabb.

5506 Mr. Secretary.

5507 MR. PETER CUSSONS: I would now like to give an opportunity to B. Denham Jolly to present his intervention please. I believe Mr. Jolly does have one, because I have some copies to hand out.

--- Pause / Pause

5508 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, Monsieur Jolly.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5509 MR. DENHAM JOLLY: Good morning, Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission.

5510 Milestone appreciates this opportunity to participate at Phase II of this competitive application process. We would like to restrict our intervention today to the application filed by SHARE for 93.5 FM and 740 AM. Because our intervention focuses mostly on issues of a somewhat technical nature, I would like to ask my associated, Carl Redhead, to address them.

5511 MR. CARL REDHEAD: Milestone and SHARE applications contain some common findings and conclusions about the Toronto market in general.

5512 We both agree that there is a continued strong demand for a station with an identifiable Black music sound. We also agree that there is currently no station in the Toronto market operating in the Urban format. As we indicated in Milestone's in-chief presentation on Wednesday, Toronto radio listeners who are interested in Urban music currently have to tune in to WBLK-FM from Buffalo. Therefore, licensing of a station operating in the Urban format will repatriate significant tuning and advertising revenues. It will also contribute, in a significant way, to the diversity of voices in the marketplace and help develop Canadian talent.

5513 Beyond these general conclusions, however, Milestone has significant concerns regarding the SHARE application, including reservations relating to SHARE-FM's business plan. The business plan as filed is premised on an assumption that the Commission should award SHARE a licence to carry on a station which will either operate on 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz, or operate on a significantly expanded 93.5 MHz frequency.

5514 By SHARE's own admission, the applicant does not appear to be seriously interested in pursuing the so-called "nesting proposal" involving 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz. Instead, SHARE is asking the Commission to grant it an FM broadcasting licence for an expanded 93.5 MHz, for which no technical brief has been submitted to Industry Canada.

5515 Moreover, SHARE-FM, in response to Commission questioning on Thursday, admitted that although it had approached one of the potentially affected radio broadcasting stations, that licensee had indicated it was not prepared to waive the increased interference to its signal that would result from the SHARE-FM's proposal.

5516 Milestone is at a loss to understand how SHARE-FM could come to a competitive licensing hearing such as this, with an application premised on the licensing of a frequency under circumstances not contemplated by the Commission's call for applications.

5517 Milestone believes that it may be useful to review some of the relevant considerations which led to this frequency becoming available for use by commercial broadcasters.

5518 As the Commission will remember, Milestone Radio was one of the participants in the consortium which funded the engineering proposal by Stacey Lawson Associates Ltd. in 1996, that developed the so-called nesting proposal involving 93.5 MHz and 740 KHz.

5519 The CBC's current 99.1 MHz frequency, awarded in 1997, was the last commercially viable frequency available in Toronto on the FM band at that time. 93.5 MHz was not originally allocated for use in Toronto; it was a Peterborough assignment. Its current proposed use in Toronto was facilitated by the CBC who, at the 1997 CRTC hearings, undertook to do all in its power to help make 93.5 MHz workable from Toronto, for a future licensee. CBC also undertook to consult and work with all interested parties to this end. The CBC kept its promise.

5520 The CBC has since vacated 93.5 in Peterborough and has just received Commission approval to reduce the power level of 93.5 in London, Ontario. These moves helped to enhance the coverage potential of 93.5 in Toronto significantly.

5521 Milestone, for its part, was very encouraged when the field trials of 93.5 MHz, as conducted by the CBC and made available to interested parties, proved that the coverage area of the frequency was considerably greater than the initial engineering studies had suggested. When those field test results were confirmed, Milestone founders decided that it would not be necessary to proceed with the nesting proposal in order to serve the Greater Toronto Area.

5522 As we indicated during the presentation of our application on Wednesday, the 500 microvolt per metre contour of 93.5 MHz, with effective radiated power of 298 watts broadcasting from the Bank of Montreal tower, extends from Oakville in the West, North to Brampton, across Richmond Hill to Markham, and South to Ajax and Pickering. The population within this coverage area is more than 3.6 million.

5523 Milestone believes therefore that because of these enhancements of signal coverage, 93.5 MHz, as technically approved by Industry Canada, is a viable frequency. This assessment of the founding shareholders of Milestone was confirmed this summer by our minority shareholder, Standard Radio Inc., a long-standing broadcaster in this market.

5524 Madam Chairperson, in its presentation on Thursday, SHARE-FM left the impression that CHAY-FM in Barrie on 93.1 MHz was the only impairment to 93.5 in Toronto. This is not so. There are at least five other short-spacing protections to be met in addition to CHAY-FM. They are: CFRU-FM, Guelph; CFMU-FM, Hamilton; CBCL-FM, London; CBL-FM, Toronto; and WBLK-FM, Buffalo.

5525 In other words, Commissioners, the issue of further expansion of the coverage area for 93.5 MHz in Toronto is not a simple matter.

5526 For all these reasons, Milestone Radio does not believe it is either fair or appropriate for one applicant in a highly competitive licensing proceeding to put forth a business case which is premised upon assumptions that are not available to other applicants.

5527 Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

5528 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Jolly and your colleagues. We will see you again at Reply.

5529 MR. DENHAM JOLLY: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, thank you. You will see us again.

5530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

5531 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5532 The next applicant we will invite up will be Arnold Auguste.

5533 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Auguste.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5534 MR. ARNOLD AUGUSTE: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. Members of the staff, ladies and gentlemen.

5535 I feel pretty special appearing this morning -- everybody is attacking me!

5536 Over the past 22 years or so, I have always had the high ground. I provided, and I stood by, a positive approach to everything I do. I don't see any reason to change that this morning. I am going to continue to take the high ground. I am not going to intervene against anyone of my competitors.

5537 The applications are before you, and I trust you to do the right thing.

5538 Thank you.

5539 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Auguste.

5540 Mr. Secretary.

5541 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5542 We will now hear Fairchild Radio Toronto Ltd.

5543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Chan and colleagues.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5544 MR. JOE CHAN: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

5545 We are pleased to have this opportunity to address our concerns about some of the applications before you. Before we start our presentation, I would like to quickly reintroduce ourselves.

5546 My name is Joe Chan, and I am General Manager of Fairchild Media Group. On my left is Calvin Wong, General Manager of Fairchild Radio, and on my right is Tracey Pearce, a partner at Goodman Phillips & Vineberg.

5547 MR. CALVIN WONG: Our concerns relate solely to the potential for the introduction of additional programming directed to the Chinese community and, as such, our comments are restricted to the applications by CHIN and Infinity for new ethnic services.

5548 We want to state clearly that we are not opposed to the licensing of another ethnic station in Toronto, subject to certain conditions. As a result, we have no comment on the merits of either of the proposals. Our opposition is based exclusively on our belief that the vibrancy of existing broadcasters should be ensured before any new ethnic services are licensed.

5549 In our view, that means two things. First, we believe that keeping CHKT on the air should take priority over the licensing of new ethnic services. Secondly, we believe that any new service should not adversely impact the ability of existing broadcasters to continue to serve their audiences. As a result, we oppose the licensing of any new ethnic radio services unless the introduction of this station does not result in additional programming directed towards the Chinese community.

5550 MR. JOE CHAN: Chinese audiences in Toronto are already well served. The Chinese community currently enjoys access to over 140 hours of programming in Cantonese and Mandarin every week. This is a significant level of service, and CHKT provides 66 hours of such programming.

5551 Yet, as you heard last week, CHKT is not just a Chinese broadcaster. We provide valuable programming to a total of 19 different cultural groups in 20 different languages, including several communities without any other media service in Toronto. Our ability to broadcast to this diverse number of small ethnic communities, however, is supported almost exclusively by advertising revenues derived from our Chinese-language programming.

5552 As the Commission also knows, CHKT has conditions of licence restricting both the total amount and the timing of broadcasting aimed at Chinese audiences. Those restrictions, which constrain CHKT's ability to increase its advertising revenues, were adopted to protect the interests of existing ethnic broadcasters and to ensure a balance among existing Chinese-language services.

5553 In summary, the Chinese community in Toronto is already well served by existing media outlets and the Chinese advertising market cannot support additional service to this community without a negative impact on existing broadcasters.

5554 CHKT, a new service which only achieved a positive cashflow in this broadcast year, relies almost exclusively on Chinese advertising dollars to support its service to other communities. As such, the introduction of more programming directed to the Chinese community would have a serious impact on our station.

5555 MR. CALVIN WONG: Based on our review of these applications, it appears that neither CHIN nor Infinity proposes any programming to the Chinese community on either new service. However, in our experience, ethnic stations inevitably rely on the revenues generated by the largest ethnic communities, one of which is Chinese, to support programming for smaller, newer communities.

5556 We are concerned that a new operator may turn to programming for Chinese audiences in order to help attract advertising revenues and that, without conditions of licence to the contrary, it would have the flexibility to do so.

5557 In the case of Infinity, if the applicant were willing to accept a condition of licence prohibiting the broadcasting of programming directed to the Chinese community, Fairchild would withdraw its opposition. Based on the description of the service presented in the application and at the hearing, it would appear that accepting such a condition of licence would not be inconsistent or unduly limiting.

5558 MR. JOE CHAN: The CHIN application presents a greater cause for concern. Although CHIN has also not proposed any programming to the Chinese audience on the new station, its application notes that its bilingual format would be particularly appealing to members of three different ethnic groups, one of which is Chinese. We also note that this "bilingual" service appears to include approximately 50 per cent third language programming. Accordingly, we are concerned that programming to our core audience may form part of this service in the near future.

5559 Moreover, if licensed, this station would provide CHIN with its third undertaking in the market. Even if CHIN were to accept a condition of licence prohibiting programming directed to the Chinese community on its new AM, it would have considerable flexibility to increase Chinese programming on its existing services. In fact, CHIN indicates in its application that its existing AM will add five hours of Chinese programming each week.

5560 In light of these concerns, Fairchild opposes the CHIN application unless CHIN accepts a condition of licence on the new service prohibiting the inclusion of programming directed to the Chinese community, as well as conditions of licence on its existing services which would ensure that no additional programming for Chinese audiences was introduced.

5561 In summary, Fairchild respectfully submits that preserving the viability of CHKT should take priority over the licensing of any additional ethnic language service. Furthermore, should the Commission award one of these frequencies to a new ethnic service, Fairchild believes that conditions of licence prohibiting the broadcast of programming directed to the Chinese audiences should be imposed. Moreover, should CHIN be licensed, we believe that its existing services should also be subject to a condition of licence restricting the introduction of any additional programming for the Chinese community.

5562 We thank you for your attention, and we would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.

5563 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chan and your colleagues. We will see you again at Reply.

5564 Mr. Secretary, please.

5565 MS T. PEARCE: Madam Chair, if I could just add one comment.

5566 It was simply to assure you that on Friday we heard a number of comments regarding the lease, and it is our intention to address such matters on Thursday in Reply.

5567 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

5568 Mr. Secretary.

5569 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5570 Just for the record, I would like to confirm that one of our applicants, YTV Canada, has no statement to make in this particular phase, but of course they will have an opportunity to come back in Phase IV.

5571 I would now like to introduce our next applicant, which is 914258 Ontario Limited to come forward and make its intervention. Thank you.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5572 MR. NEETI P. RAY: Good morning, Madam Chair and Members of the Panel.

5573 Madam Chair, approval of CHIN Radio's proposal for 740 AM will do very little to respond to the real needs and priorities that currently exist within Greater Toronto's multicultural communities, nor will its approval advance the stated goods within the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy with respect to the continuing need for broad based programming and quality of service.

5574 Other than granting CHIN a chokehold on Greater Toronto's ethnic broadcasting sector, approval of their application for 740 AM will broaden rather than narrow the service disparity gap that currently exists between Toronto's well served multicultural communities and those that are unserved and badly underserved.

5575 Given the reality of the unanswered needs amongst Toronto's unserved and underserved multicultural communities, now is not the time and 740 is not the frequency to allow CHIN Radio to experiment with its bilingual initiative on less than a handful of communities. To do so would be tantamount to adding a third layer of icing to CHIN's already substantial AM/FM undertakings while other multicultural communities, including the huge and vastly underserved South Asian Community, lay starving at the outer fringes of Toronto's ethnic broadcasting sector for even basic local third-language services.

5576 Madam Chair, in addition to carefully studying CHIN's application for 740 AM, Infinity listened for nearly three hours last Friday as the Panel questioned CHIN at length on all aspects of its application. Based on their application and what was placed on the public record of this hearing, Infinity heard nothing new that would justify CHIN occupying a third spot on the dial of Toronto's ethnic radio spectrum.

5577 MS RENU RAY: Approval of CHIN's application for 740 AM would in essence be a departure from the ethnic broadcasting model that has helped in addressing the needs of many of Greater Toronto's third language communities, both large and small, over the past several years.

5578 In looking at the broader picture of Toronto's multicultural composition, three major language groups -- Italian, Chinese and South Asians -- dominate the marketplace in terms of the size of their respective populations.

5579 With respect to the Italian community and the prominence of its language on both CHIN-AM and CHIN-FM, it is the near equivalence of the Italian community having two frequencies in the Toronto market.

5580 Similarly, the prominence of Chinese language programming on Fairchild's AM 1430, as well as on other ethnic radio stations, is again nearly equivalent to the Chinese community having two frequencies at its disposal within the Greater Toronto market.

5581 By comparison, the huge and fastest growing of these three major groups, the South Asian community, has nothing that would even remotely compare to the level and quality of programming services enjoyed by the Italian and Chinese communities.

5582 In light of this unacceptable service void within the South Asian community, CHIN, to gain access to 740 AM, would be blatantly unfair to the vastly underserved 500,000 South Asians living within the Greater Toronto area.

5583 MR. NEETY P. RAY: Madam Chair, what CHIN's proposal for 740 AM fails to address in credible terms is how it would serve the unfulfilled needs of the South Asian community with a few hours of bilingual programming which has little, if any, relevance to a community which has more than 20 different language groups within its complex and culturally diverse composition.

5584 If CHIN's proposal for 740 AM, along with some shuffling of its existing AM and FM undertakings, is the answer to the South Asian community's many needs, then where was the support and expressions of interest and passion from the community, other than that expressed by a member of CHIN's panel?

5585 In assessing the value and extent of CHIN's 740 AM proposal to serve the South Asian component of its overall plan, it is first relevant to examine what is currently available.

5586 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we would first note that there appears to be some confusion, be it real or manufactured, that because there are currently some 76.5 hours of Punjabi programming available on existing ethnic stations, the needs of a huge and culturally diverse South Asian community are being well served.

5587 Madam Chair, this is simply not the case. Punjabi is produced by and caters mainly to those who in large part emigrated from the Punjab state of India, whereas the vast majority of South Asians within the Greater Toronto/Southern Ontario Region do not relate to, speak, or understand Punjabi.

5588 The only language from amongst the more than 20 spoken within the South Asian community that is universally understood and respected and able to bring all of the diverse cultural elements of the broader community together as one is Hindustani language. As the lingua franca of South Asian, Hindustani is to South Asians what English is to the rest of the world.

5589 Hence, beyond the Punjabi language component, which is relevant to about one-fifth, or 20 per cent, of the overall South Asian population of 500,000, there are 13 hours of Hindi programming on CHIN-FM and one hour of Hindi programming on CJMR-AM. Of the 13 hours of Hindi on CHIN-FM, about half is already in English.

5590 Further, there are currently 2.5 hours of Tamil programming on CHIN-AM and one hour on CJMR-AM.

5591 Finally, there is one hour of Bengali programming on CHIN-AM and 30 minutes on CJMR-AM.

5592 Madam Chair, by my count there is a total of 19 hours (14 Hindi, 3.5 Tamil and 1.5 Bengali) currently serving the 500,000 South Asians within the Greater Toronto area.

5593 With respect to the 76.5 hours of Punjabi, it would be relevant to say that Punjabi meets the needs of the South Asian population as it would be to say that the 18 hours of Mandarin programming in the market served the needs of Toronto's Chinese community.

5594 Madam Chair, the bottom line is that CHIN's 740 AM proposal, even with its sister AM-FM stations, does not even begin to address the needs of the South Asian community.

5595 MS RENU RAY: Turning to other aspects of CHIN's bilingual proposal, as a member of the Toronto ethnic broadcast community over the past decade, I can tell you that bilingualism is nothing unique, or new, or experimental to CHIN Radio. They have had an English component to their South Asian and other language programs, as a natural progression, over a considerable period of time.

5596 While more English language programming may be appropriate for the Italian community, which has a 27 per cent first generation factor, such is not the case for South Asians, at 72 per cent, and other Asian-Middle Eastern countries, at 83 per cent, as noted in the Conquest survey conducted for CHIN.

5597 Infinity disagrees with CHIN's position that second and third generation immigrant populations are not comfortable in their native tongue but are comfortable with their culture and practice it at home.

5598 From our perspective, the culture of any community is closely woven into the language of that community or language group; hence, cutting off that language from the radio is an invalidation of that culture and, therefore, is a disservice to the community. It's like saying you can exist as a Czech or a Spanish or a Filipino, minus your language.

5599 A member of the CHIN presentation panel said that the English language links people in India and that the answer to the multicultural policy in Canada lies in the English language.

5600 Not surprisingly, we disagree. First of all, it is only approximately 10 per cent of the people in India that are conversant in English as a result of the McCauley system of education imposed by the then British regime, which did not filter down to the masses. To further illustrate, most proceedings in the Indian Parliament are conducted in Hindustani, and the National Anthem of that country is in Hindustani.

5601 In the multicultural society of Canada, where the official policy celebrates diversity and encourages preservation of cultural heritage by different communities, the mandate of ethnic radio programming cannot be confined to mere dissemination of information, analysis and entertainment. Its central thrust and fundamental rationale must rest upon the ethnic community's cultural preservation in all its various forms. In this process, the preservation of one's language and its literary traditions must be accorded unquestioned centrality. If heritage language is not preserved, minority groups will be swallowed up by larger groups. Infinity proposes to serve 21 such groups.

5602 A perfect example is CRTC's own policy, requiring the reflection of the multicultural and multilingual diversity of Canada.

5603 While elaborating on their position regarding the bilingual programming, CHIN's panel member said: "We are not dealing with new immigrants any more". This attitude is insensitive to those who have arrived in the past ten years, when the wave of immigrants from South Asia was very high.

5604 Madam Chair, 70,000 new immigrants are still arriving from around the world. The Indian sub-continent remains one of the major sources of the immigration to Canada. In recent years, the rate of immigrants arriving from South Asia has increased compared to the Chinese, if you compare the rate at which Chinese immigrants arrived in Canada after the 1991 census.

5605 MR. NEETI P. RAY: We further noted that during the question and answer segment of their appearance, CHIN stated that the time slots vacated on 1540, after they move programs to 740 AM, would be filled by Portuguese, Chinese, Polish, Jewish and Caribbean programming.

5606 This again points to the fact that CHIN is mainly playing a shuffle-board with existing well served language groups like the Portuguese, Polish, and Chinese communities, rather than reaching out and extending service to those multicultural communities who need it most.

5607 Infinity also noted that in response to the Commission question as to the impact that a new ethnic player licensed for a 740 AM would have on CHIN's existing operations, Mr. Lombardi stated, "We will survive".

5608 MS RENU RAY: We also noted that in response to a Commission question as to how meaningful a 30 minute time slot would be to a community, Mr. Lombardi agreed that while 30 minutes was perhaps better than no minutes, there was a limited amount that could be achieved in a programming context, with such a limited period. He also acknowledged that a two-hour programming slot would afford a community the opportunity to achieve a meaningful and balanced programming mix.

5609 At one point, Mr. Lombardi said that he was concerned about the timing of the South Asian programming in the 'other application'.

5610 Infinity would point out that we have intentionally scheduled our Hindustani language programming to start at 9:00 p.m., as CHIN's Hindi programs start at 7:30 p.m. and ends at 9:30 p.m.

5611 We would also point out that our former 'Radio India' program used to start at 7:00 p.m. each evening, eclipsing their entire South Asian programming each day. They still survived.

5612 MR. NEETI P. RAY: CHIN further noted that the licensing of the 'other ethnic applicant' for 740 AM would result in a raid on our people, as had occurred in the past.

5613 Should Infinity be licensed for 740 AM, we will seek out and train our own people from within the 22 communities we propose to serve. Having said that, we would add that CHIN losing employees to other media outlets is hardly unique, given that broadcasters for decades have moved back and forth between stations within the same market and across Canada.

5614 In the final analysis, Madam Chair, it is Infinity's view that while approval of CHIN's proposal for 740 AM will further enhance its ownership situation in the Toronto market and enable them to add yet another layer of service to the Italian community, the benefits to the broader multicultural community of Greater Toronto and to the Broadcasting System are just not there. As such, CHIN's application should be denied.

5615 Approval of 740 AM should fall to a new ethnic broadcaster, who will bring added diversity to Toronto's ethnic broadcasting spectrum.

5616 In the final analysis once again, competition is healthy and stimulates other broadcasting undertakings onto providing more and better service. We would refer the Commission to its decision CRTC 96-659 relative to Fairchild's entry into the Toronto ethnic market.

5617 The decision stated in part:

5618 Thank you. If you have any questions, we will be willing to answer.

5619 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will see you again at Reply.

5620 Mr. Secretary, please.

5621 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5622 We have one more applicant to invite forward during this phase. It is Radio 1540 Limited.

--- Pause / Pause

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5623 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Good morning, Madam Chair. I would like to just start by correcting the record to follow up on a question raised by Commissioner Cardozo on Friday, during CHIN's Phase I presentation, and that is with respect to the Canadian talent development benefits.

5624 Commissioner Cardozo raised the matter of our direct benefits and our addition on that amount. In fact, to clarify, our direct Canadian talent benefits add to a total of $46,600, in addition to our $50,000 in indirect benefits. That is a total of $96,600. I just wanted to raise that right upfront, to clarify, in response to your question.

5625 Thank you.

5626 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5627 Mr. Lombardi.

5628 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Good day, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. It's nice to see you again this morning.

5629 My name is Lenny Lombardi, Executive Vice President of CHIN Radio.

5630 Before we begin our presentation this morning, I would like to first introduce our members of the panel.

5631 To my left, my dad, President and CEO of CHIN Radio, Mr. Johnny Lombardi. To his left, Mr. Bob Culliton, Vice-President and General Manager of CHIN Radio. And to my right, Stephen Zolf, our legal counsel, from Heenan Blaikie.

5632 CHIN already filed detailed interventions in the written phase of the proceeding in opposition to the other applications for 740 AM.

5633 The purpose of our appearance today is to highlight our specific concerns relating to two applications, by Infinity Broadcasting and Fairchild Radio.

5634 First, with respect to Infinity's application, in our submission there are serious deficiencies in Infinity's financial model that will make it difficult for this stand-alone ethnic applicant to provide a viable service that adds diversity to the ethnic market.

5635 Of most concern is Infinity's reliance on its South Asian programming as the main 'economic engine' to support its business plan. Infinity confirmed during its presentation to the Commission last week that its proposed Hindustani programming will cross-subsidize all of its 'underserved' programming aimed at approximately 20 communities. In total, as much as 41 hours of Hindustani programming will be aired during the broadcast week to provide sufficient revenues to cover the remaining two-thirds of its proposed scheduled.

5636 In our submission, this economic cross-subsidy scheme will, in reality, be difficult to sustain, for one key reason: Infinity has overstated the ability of its Hindustani block to earn enough revenue to support the remainder of its schedule.

5637 This overly optimistic business plan is reflected in Infinity's proposed rate cards for Hindustani programming. To give the Commission some context on this issue, we note that when this applicant aired identical programming less than three years ago on a southwestern Ontario station, pursuant to brokered time arrangements with CKTB, its actual spot rate garnered approximately $7.00 -- less than one-fifth of the amount that Infinity has projected for its proposed 740 service.

5638 Our own experience for South Asian programming in the Toronto market suggests that more realistic rate cards for this type of programming range between $10 to $18 a spot, far less than the rates underlying Infinity's business plan.

5639 To illustrate just how unrealistic Infinity's current business plan is, when more realistic advertising revenues are included, and when other calculation errors are corrected, its sell-out rate would have to increase from 40 per cent, as per its current assumptions, to close to 100 per cent to meet its revenue projections. Moreover, it would realize cumulative losses of over $1 million over the first four years of its operation, rather than positive net earnings as per its projections.

5640 Finally, we note that Infinity has completely ignored the impact of adding over 40 new hours of South Asian programming into the Toronto ethnic radio market. This market already currently offers over 120 hours of South Asian programming during the broadcast week. Infinity's new programming would represent an increase of over 30 per cent of Asian programming.

5641 Moreover, when the additional 41 hours that Infinity is proposing between midnight and 6:00 a.m. is factored in, the level of South Asian programming in the market would increase by over 80 hours, to a total of 200 hours weekly.

5642 In our submission, given Infinity's weak business plan and the fact that it will have to realize sell-out rates at near maximum levels, it would inevitably have to add even more South Asian programming to its schedule to meet its revenue projections. This would further the negative impact on existing ethnic broadcasters who air South Asian programming in the market.

5643 In summary, Infinity's business plan will, in our submission, make it difficult for this applicant to offer a viable undertaking that will achieve the objectives set out in subparagraph 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting Act.

5644 Next, I would ask Stephen Zolf to address the Fairchild application.

5645 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: CHIN submits that Fairchild's application is not in the public interest, for the following reasons.

5646 First, Fairchild itself conceded in its application and during its appearance before the Commission last week that its preference is to be licensed for the 93.5 FM frequency.

5647 Second, its application is based solely on the status of its lease arrangements for its transmitter site on Toronto Island, which it claims are 'uncertain'. Yet, inexplicably, Fairchild could not provide any clear evidence, neither in its written filings nor during its presentation to the Commission, that the City of Toronto will not consider entering into a new lease upon expiration of the Fairchild lease in 2001.

5648 As we reiterated during our oral presentation, CHIN faces the identical set of circumstances to that of Fairchild with respect to the status of our transmitter site. Of course, CHIN has had discussions with the City. In that regard, the City has not in any way indicated that it will not enter into new lease arrangements once CHIN's current lease expires next year.

5649 It is CHIN's understanding that the City of Toronto has, for years, not included automatic renewals in any of its property leases on Toronto's Harbourfront and Island regions. Of course, this does not mean that new leases, with new terms and conditions, will not be negotiated upon the expiration of existing leases.

5650 We submit that Fairchild is placing too much emphasis on the fact that its lease expressly provides for no renewal right. It is erroneous to conclude that this means it has no further options. There is no evidence in this proceeding to support such a conclusion.

5651 Even if Fairchild could provide clear and unequivocal evidence that the City of Toronto will indeed refuse to negotiate new lease arrangements next year CHIN would, of course, face identical circumstances. There is no reason why the City would treat CHIN any differently.

5652 Of course, all of this is hypothetical. We submit that it is extremely unlikely that the City would refuse to attempt to reach mutually acceptable arrangements, particularly if there are, as Fairchild suggests, no other alternative sites for its transmitter.

5653 In any case, as Fairchild has not established that it will in fact lose its transmitter site next year, its application here is, at best, premature. On the evidence on the record of this proceeding, we submit it would be difficult for the Commission to conclude that Fairchild has no other alternatives.

5654 Until these alternatives are exhausted, we submit that the Commission is not the right forum for Fairchild to be seeking a remedy. The appropriate forum for Fairchild is the City of Toronto. CHIN will continue to pursue this avenue, in the ordinary course, until suitable arrangements can be found with respect to its current transmitter site on the Island.

5655 Finally, when Fairchild acquired CHKT from Telemedia in 1995, it surely must have completed the standard "due diligence" before electing to purchase the station. This diligence would obviously have included examining the real property rights for the transmitter site, which would have revealed that there was no right of renewal in its transmitter site lease, therefore necessitating a new lease in 2001 or current reasonable alternatives.

5656 We cannot help but conclude that Fairchild is attempting to export what is essentially a commercial problem to this public proceeding. We submit that it would not be in the interest of the Canadian broadcasting system to grant Fairchild's application, in these circumstances.

5657 Finally, we note that the applicant expressly states that approval of its application would not result in any change to its existing operations, leaving the program schedule, commitments and contributions unchanged. In fact, Fairchild clearly conceded in its application and during its presentation last week that the signal coverage of 740 is far greater than the contour needed to serve its targeted audience. Therefore, granting its application for 740 would not maximize the positive externalities that are inherent in such a robust signal.

5658 In our submission, it would not be in the public interest to allow Fairchild to use the regulatory process in this manner. We therefore submit that its application should be denied.

5659 We appreciate the opportunity to submit these comments, and would welcome questions.

5660 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi and colleagues.

5661 MR. RHÉAUME: Madam Chair, could I have one clarification question.

5662 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

5663 LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr. Zolf, at page 6 of the presentation, could you clarify the statement:

5664 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Yes, counsel.

5665 I think I would ask Lenny, as he has had those discussions, I think it would be best that Lenny Lombardi answer that question.

5666 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, we have been in discussions with the City of Toronto approximately four months ago, discussed the options for our transmitter site on the Island, and in a frank exchange in that discussion we were not given any indication that reasonable terms could not be arrived at some future date.

5667 LEGAL COUNSEL: Thank you.

5668 Thank you, Madam Chair.

5669 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lombardi, do you have any written confirmation of that position by the City to file with us?

5670 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: At the present time, no, Madam Chair.

5671 THE CHAIRPERSON: You understand of course that the situation here is, if you get 740 you have three frequencies.

5672 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, I realize that.

5673 THE CHAIRPERSON: So any problem on the Island decreases in importance.

5674 For the other applicant, depending on exactly what the situation is, it means no frequency. So, to clarify this matter to our satisfaction, evidence will have to be produced to show that indeed you have been given some encouragement or assurances that there would be no problem, because right now what we have from the City is not as positive as what you put forward, and the result for you of course is not going to be as dramatic if you were granted 740.

5675 So in analysing how we assign the frequencies that are before us, it will be important to have something of a clearer import than what we are getting, to sort out what the situation will be in 2001 on the Island. Anyway, we will see you again at Reply.

5676 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5677 THE CHAIRPERSON: Unless you have something to add.

5678 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I cannot really elaborate any more than I did on Friday. I believe that this is a people issue with respect to the concerns on the Island, and I am sure that the City Fathers and Mothers will be able to arrive --

5679 THE CHAIRPERSON: Including those on the Island.

5680 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Including those on the Island.

5681 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I do not quite agree that this a City problem. It is a problem for us.

5682 I think when we are looking at the public interest, it is important to have some clarity as to whether a broadcaster who is offering diversity will have no frequency and so on.

5683 Your comments on that, in light of the fact that you are neighbours and, as you keep saying, you will be treated in the same way, would be helpful if there was more clarity to them, and it does have an impact on how we sort all this out. It has an impact on your application as well.

5684 MR. STEPHEN ZOLF: Madam Chair, if I may just add to that.

5685 We do acknowledge your concerns. I guess our position is, we reiterate it, is that while it should be a concern of the Commission, we feel Commission action at this stage is premature and potentially would of course have an outcome on commercial arrangements that have yet to be addressed. So the Commission's action at this stage would obviously have some consequences for really private arrangements that may --

5686 THE CHAIRPERSON: Either your clients or the other applicant. So to say that it is premature, it would be better if we were more in a position to know exactly what the score is, because if this is the last, last, last, last frequency in Toronto, prematurity until digital is possible is hardly an answer to trying to sort out what is in the public interest in the Toronto market.

5687 But you do not have to solve Fairchild's problems. But you are also asking for the same frequency that they are. They are asking for it for a reason that you say is not valid, so it is important that we have as much clarity as possible by either party, because it affects both of you, or may affect both of you, when we sort out what we do with the competing applications in this hearing. It is your choice, of course, but I think it is important for us to tell you what our concerns are.

5688 We will see you again at Reply. Thank you very much.

5689 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5690 THE CHAIRPERSON: This completes Phase II of the proceeding.

5691 After the break, we will proceed with Phase III, the hearing of interventions in the various applications heard.

5692 The first three parties that we will hear in interventions have filed interventions in more than one application, that is, CIRPA, CIRV and Dufferin. We will hear each of these intervenors once.

5693 We will then proceed to hear interventions in the order in which the application in which they were filed was heard, so that is beginning with supporting interventions and CHWO, I believe.

5694 We will be hearing several supporting interventions throughout this week. We may not have any questions for intervenors, as we want to hear as many intervenors as possible in the time available. This should not be seen as a lack of interest on our part.

5695 Moreover, I remind you that each intervention will be transcribed and will form part of the record in addition to the written intervention filed.

5696 The Hearing Secretary, on our return, will address the procedure that will be followed.

5697 So we will take a 15-minute break, and be back at ten to eleven. Nous reprendrons à 11 heures moins dix.

--- Recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

--- Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

5698 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur le Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

5699 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5700 We are now entering Phase III of our competitive process, whereby we call other interested parties to come forward and present interventions.

5701 As you mentioned earlier, it is our intention to call forward, first of all this morning, interventions by CIRPA, CIRC Radio, Dufferin Communications. Then we will be starting, probably during the course of the next few days, a number of interventions from various parties in support of our applicants.

5702 As you mentioned before the break, these people will be called in the same order that we called the applicants that they support last week. So we would be starting with the intervenors supporting CHWO, then Mr. Farmer, and so on. And we anticipate that this could take the next two or three days. We will see how it goes.

5703 Having said that, and reminding intervenors that we are basically allowing ten minutes for them to present their interventions, I would like to introduce an intervention by Canadian Independent Record Production Association, with Mr. Brian Chater.

5704 Mr. Chater, welcome.

5705 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Thank you.

5706 Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

5707 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5708 MR. BRIAN CHATER: My name is Brian Chater, the President of CIRPA. This morning I would like to take the opportunity to expand upon CIRPA's written intervention to the various applications for the available radio frequencies in Toronto.

5709 Obviously in a 10-minute presentation, given the diverse, in all sense of the word, applications, I can only give you an overview of the key issues that CIRPA feels should be considered by the Commission in its deliberations. Naturally we would be happy to expand on any particular point and, should you have questions that arise from my presentation, I would be happy to give you a more detailed answer on any particular issue.

5710 As you know from seeing media reports, in the first few weeks of this year the record business has undergone major structural changes, which will clearly have an impact on the music industry worldwide but which also will have major implications for the future of CIRPA's members. Coupled with these business decisions and of course the many and varied technological advances that will also have a major impact both on the music business as well as that of broadcasting over the next decade.

5711 I have just returned from a major music trade fair that takes place annually in France, and this year attendance reached new heights with over 12,000 participants from more than 60 countries around the world. It is here that one can really see the tremendous competition that Canadians face in the marketing, merchandising and selling of their products on worldwide markets.

5712 While I am happy to say that Canada Stand was exceptionally busy throughout the week of the fair and Canadian music is both well regarded and well accepted around the world, there is little room for complacency. The competition and advances in technology will require that we be constantly innovative and vigilant in both protecting and expanding our position in world markets. A key part of this strategy must be ensuring that new product from Canadian creators receive as much support as possible in their home market, to enable them to take on an ever more competitive world.

5713 While it is clearly a goal of Canada's government policy that Canadians must be able to hear and appreciate other Canadians, and this is a laudable policy, we must also not forget that while there is clearly a cultural dividend for this policy there is also an economic dividend that is of great benefit to Canada. Indeed, in a recent report in Billboard Magazine it was reported that intellectual property in all its forms has become the number one export industry in the United States, with music alone earning in excess of $10 billion (US) annually from abroad which flows back to the United States' economy.

5714 I could continue on this major and important theme for a great deal longer than the ten minutes allotted to us but, having endeavoured, even if briefly, to place these hearings in context from the point of view of CIRPA, I will now like to turn to a few specific policy concerns and suggestions that CIRPA has regarding the current process.

5715 We would like to highlight and expand upon points from our written intervention plus comment briefly on some of the issues raised in various applications.

5716 With regard to the various frequencies available, we would reiterate our view that these frequencies should be licensed separately. However, after some thought on the matter, we feel additionally that the Commission should consider not licensing 106.3 FM at all for the present. It has been said many times, and we feel it bears repeating, that radio licences are valuable entities that are, by the current licensing definition, a restricted resource, a resource that is owned by the Canadian people. It is our view that radio frequencies should be allocated so as to serve the Canadian public in the best possible way.

5717 As we stated in our written interventions, these frequencies have great value to potential licensees in the upcoming digital world, particularly given the current Commission position that only those who currently have licences will be able to broadcast digitally.

5718 Therefore, while CIRPA feels that 740 AM and 93.5 FM should be licensed, in our view the new frequency of 106.3 FM requires further policy discussion before any licensing of this admittedly poor, in today's world, frequency occurs.

5719 To turn briefly to the five principles we enunciated in our intervention, the first four would seem to be clear and straightforward. However, we would like to discuss the fifth point, the targeting of CTD funding initiatives, in more detail.

5720 There are several proposals common to many applications as well as a concept contained in several applications that CIRPA feels should be discussed and, we would suggest, considered by the Commission in its deliberations.

5721 In these applications there are proposals for talent searches, CD compilations, talent showcases and web sites. All have appeared in previous applications over the years, with the exception of web sites. We would reiterate our previous comments that, in our view, the Canadian music industry conducts talent searches every day. It is a basic building block of the record industry and, given the intensely competitive nature of the industry today, we would think it unlikely that any artist of value is not widely known by the music industry as a potential signee.

5722 The same applies to CD compilations and the new artist featured therein, which additionally suffer from the disadvantage of the fact that, with the identification included by the station putting it out, it guarantees their competitors will not play it no matter how good it is. Talent showcases, if well organized and targeted for specific results, in certain limited circumstances can be helpful. This same reasoning would apply to web sites.

5723 However, while there would certainly be some value in a specific genre web site, in our view a better and far more beneficial approach for everyone is to include the various proposals as part of an independent music industry web site. This would then attract a much bigger audience, which therefore would be a much better sales tool, and would attract a variety of sponsors while at the same time sill having a targeted and detailed list of applications, information and e-commerce opportunities for any given genre of music as part of the whole.

5724 A final philosophical and practical concern with some applications from CIRPA's point of view is the way monies promised are targeted towards a variety of initiatives not involving music for which substantial funding is planned, while only a small proportion, often the lowest mandated amount, falls under the CTD regulations published by the Commission for music. CIRPA finds this somewhat incongruous, to say the least, given that the applicants will be playing music for well over 50 per cent of their total broadcasting time and, in some cases, as much as 80 per cent of broadcasting time.

5725 In the view of CIRPA, this only reinforces the generally held view by users that music is worth little and certainly not nearly as much as other activities which go towards programming a station. In CIRPA's view, this is both damaging and fallacious given the fact that music contributes the majority of programming on most radio stations and is a substantial factor in attracting audiences.

5726 CIRPA would suggest that CTD promises from several applicants should reflect the use and value of music to their overall programming equation and the percentage of CTD monies promised to music users should reflect their use of music programming in approximate percentage terms.

5727 To make a final point on this issue, CIRPA also feels that the most effective and efficient use for these promises is to place the monies with FACTOR, an organization that has a proven track record in utilizing dollars in the best possible way to help the development of a viable Canadian music sector and which is overseen by a board consisting of music industry and broadcast industry personnel.

5728 The Commission will also have noted a recent change in approach from CIRPA in that we have suggested that a licence be granted in this round to a black/urban station. Our reasoning here is simply that this is a vibrant, rapidly growing music community which already has had considerable success, even given the lack of a broadcast outlet in Toronto.

5729 While there is currently no Toronto outlet, this opens the door to stations such as WBLK in Buffalo to come into the Toronto market. In our view, the community deserves to have a station, and we are confident that such a station will be of substantial benefit to all of Toronto and make a major contribution to the cultural and economic fabric of the city.

5730 The final point from our written intervention we would like to reiterate is the matter of programming diversity. We raised this matter using two applicants, Rainbow Radio and YTV Radio, as examples and we would like to return to this again.

5731 While we stand to be corrected, it appears to CIRPA that, while in both cases the applicants will be targeting a specific audience segment with regard to sales, the music being used to reach their target audiences will be pretty mainstream and contain much that is already heard on Toronto radio today.

5732 There is a plethora of good Canadian children's music available, and this is music which has had considerable airplay in the past on American stations programming to children. However, there appears to be little projected use of Canadian children's music by the proposed station, given our reading of the application, and much use of current Top 40 music. The same critique would apply to the Rainbow Radio application. As far as CIRPA can see from reviewing it, it would be playing, if not Top 40, then much commonly heard music.

5733 Given the paucity of frequencies available, it is the view of CIRPA that musical diversity is an extremely important part of the licensing policy issues that face the Commission, and we would suggest a major public policy issue that we would appreciate the Commission considering.

5734 We trust that the foregoing has been helpful, and we look forward to the Commission's questions.

5735 Thank you very much.

5736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chater.

5737 Mr. Chater, do you have your written intervention with you?

5738 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Yes, I do.

5739 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions of clarification.

5740 I would like you to help me sort out whether I am wrong in seeing a contradiction between one of your principles, the principle that we should follow in licensing is that new and diverse formats that are currently not available in the market be licensed, with the comment on the next page, that the Commission should consider licensing more general formats, rather than those that would be of a more specialist nature, and expanding genres that are currently not available in the CMA.

5741 If you want you want is diversity in a market that already has some 20 commercial stations, is that not contradictory with saying don't give it to niche formats -- for example, some of the ethnic proposals.

5742 I can see where your argument is, that Rainbow and the YTV applications, in your view, would not be as distinct as the applicants have put forward, but isn't there a contradiction between saying, not niche such as, let's say, an ethnic broadcaster or something that is not available, and make sure you provide diversity.

5743 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I don't think so. Perhaps I could have been clearer, that we are looking for different musical formats in all genres, first of all, diverse formats.

5744 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were looking at musical formats?

5745 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Musical formats, yes, not -- obviously we have a certain self-interest in this. Far be it for me to say that diverse music is good in a particular format. Musical diversity is perhaps --

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5746 THE CHAIRPERSON: ... and that would be in addition. The same could be said of Christian music, could it not?

5747 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Absolutely. Absolutely.

5748 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you accept that that would be a niche. But you are focusing on music more than --

5749 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I mean we look, in basic terms, to find outlets for music which perhaps is not as widely available as it might be in the marketplace.

5750 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

5751 Another principle is that you don't think that the three frequencies -- I gather this morning that, in your view, the 106.3 or 5, I guess, they are mutually exclusive, should not be licensed, and that the other two should be licensed separately.

5752 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Absolutely.

5753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can we read from that, then, that you are opposing the applicants who will acquire two?

5754 MR. BRIAN CHATER: Only in the sense that we would like further looking at this. "Opposing" is perhaps a strong word. It is just that 106.3 or 106.5, our understanding is that that frequency is a very diminished frequency in today's world. It would have a limited viability in the marketplace.

5755 We would like to just look at that. This came out of further discussions subsequent to our filing. We think maybe this is something the Commission could look at in the context of the bigger picture, the milieu.

5756 I guess you could say we actively oppose them. We thought it should be looked at. And you may well decide that you feel, no, we are totally wrong, we are going to license it. We are just maybe flagging it, if you like, as a possible approach.

5757 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your comment is more related to your doubt about what use can be made of 106, not generated by a desire to have the last, last, last frequency left available.

5758 MR. BRIAN CHATER: I am sure, as you know, it would seem to me there is always a last, last frequency. Whenever you turn around, it always appears to be. I think I have heard this since 1986, "This is the very last frequency". And it seems we are still talking about the very last one.

5759 Of course, in the upcoming world of digital, the picture will obviously change very rapidly.

5760 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chater, and I apologize. My transmitter developed problems over the weekend.

5761 MR. BRIAN CHATER: My transmitter did the same thing.

5762 Thank you.

5763 THE CHAIRPERSON: I may have to reserve 106 for myself!

--- Laughter / Rires

5764 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

5765 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5766 We will now hear the intervention from CIRC Radio Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5767 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

5768 Before beginning, my name is Frank Alvarez. I am the President of CIRC Radio Inc., Licensee of CIRV FM, a multicultural radio station serving Greater Toronto.

5769 To my right, our legal counsel, Gary Jessop, and to my left, our vice-president and director of programming, Alberta Elmir, and my assistant, Maggie Medeiros. As well, sitting behind us is Bond Falcon(ph), from the Receivables, Sales and Promotion Department of CIRV Radio.

5770 CIRV is here today to express its opposition to the following two applications currently being considered in this hearing: (A) application by Radio 1540 Limited, and (B) application by Infinity Broadcasting.

5771 I will start off our comments by first dealing with why we intervened in opposition to the application of Radio 1540, who is seeking a licence to operate a third multi-cultural station in Toronto on 740 AM. In CIRV's view, if this application is approved, it will have serious negative consequences on the currently existing ethnic broadcasters, including CIRV FM.

5772 We do not feel that the Greater Toronto market can support another ethnic station. In addition to CIRV, Greater Toronto already has five other full ethnic stations. Two of these already existing stations are owned by the Applicant. Greater Toronto is also served by a number of SCMO broadcasting services, serving particular languages, as well as daily television programs, in languages like Italian, South Asian, East Asian, Chinese, Spanish, Greek, etc. This does not count weekend programs available on mainstream television serving these and other groups and languages. Therefore, Greater Toronto's ethnic communities are already well served.

5773 The Applicant itself has admitted on a number of times in this proceeding that a new ethnic radio station in Greater Toronto will harm existing ethnic stations. The Applicant then ignores its own opinion and argues that licensing to a third station will not harm existing ethnic broadcasters.

5774 Also on its intervention, the Applicant states that it is opposed to the Infinity application due to its programming duplicating, programming already aired on CHIN's other two stations. Again the Applicant ignores this effect as it is planning to offer a significant amount of Portuguese and Spanish programming.

5775 This programming, and others proposed to be offered by the Applicant, by the Applicant's own definition, will be duplicating programming already being aired by CIRV and other existing ethnic broadcasters in Toronto. Would this not harm existing broadcasters in the same manner as Infinity's proposed service will harm CHIN's existing services? We do think so.

5776 If licensed, the Applicant's combined operations will result in significant increases in ethnic programming geared to the Spanish, Portuguese and South Asian communities. And this only considers programming during the 6:00 a.m. to 12 midnight period and not the potential for programming during the overnight period, nor does it foresee the real possibility of program shifting that may result on the Applicant's other licensed ethnic station services.

5777 As the Commission is aware, a radio station is free to change its programming lineup as it sees fit without further Commission approval. As already indicated by the Applicant, there will be programming shifting between 1540 and 740 AM. The Applicant states that it will not be shifting any programming on its FM service, but there is no guarantee that this will remain the case once the new service is licensed. Will the Applicant accept a condition of licence to this effect?

5778 On the question of its bilingual format, the Conquest study commissioned by the Applicant indicated that the Italian community, its largest audience, will be less attracted to bilingual programming than other ethnic groups. However, the Applicant discounts its own study, both in statements in its application and in paragraph 41 to the Reply to our intervention, by stating that, notwithstanding, the study must be without merit as its own experience with its core audience is telling it that Italians will listen to the bilingual programming.

5779 One has to question that if the Conquest study is wrong in this respect, how valid is the rest of the study? Is the application to be supported by the study or the Applicant's own experiences? Perhaps the Applicant would be willing to concede that, based upon our years of experience serving the Portuguese community, we have a different perspective as to the effect that his new proposed station will have on our Portuguese programming business.

5780 As the Commission is aware, Portuguese programming allows CIRV to meet its commitments to the other groups it serves. Currently, CIRV is broadcasting 63 hours of Portuguese per broadcast week. If licensed, the Applicant is proposed an additional 16.5 hours per broadcasting week of Portuguese programming, which increase represents 26 per cent of CIRV's Portuguese programming. This large percentage cannot be funded solely by increases in advertising budgets, and it must come from existing sources, stripping away needed advertising revenue from existing ethnic broadcasters, especially CIRV.

5781 In its reply to our intervention, the Applicant completely ignores the fact that it is not only overlapping programming which can harm an existing ethnic station, but also a large amount of programming in languages common between competitive stations. There are only so many advertising dollars available. The Applicant has failed to establish that businesses advertising on its proposed new service will represent incremental dollars. By merely stating that it will be so does not make it true.

5782 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention, questions why we are not currently offering Portuguese programming during the 7:00 to 9:30 morning period. The reason is quite simple: CIRV was the first FM Toronto radio station to provide Chinese programming during drive time morning hours. CIRV supported Chinese programming through Portuguese programming. CIRV has made a commitment to serve the Chinese community at the time, and we like to stand by our commitment. This is why we are not offering Portuguese programming during this period.

5783 Clearly the adverse effect, as predicted by the Applicant itself, will be equally true on the existing ethnic broadcasters regardless of who is granted the licence for a new ethnic station.

5784 If licensed, the Applicant will own 3 out of 7 ethnic stations and in effect will control over 42 per cent of the ethnic radio station market in Toronto. Put another way, if licensed, the Applicant will have 50 per cent more programming hours or 378 hours a week (126 times three stations). This is significant, especially for a station such as CIRV, which only has 126 hours a week. As well, the effect of this much market power is further enhanced when the Applicant's stations, including the proposed new station, all have much greater coverage than CIRV.

5785 The Applicant itself states in its application that by licensing to a third station, the Applicant will be able to achieve economies of scale due to spreading its costs and programming over three stations instead of two. Therefore, the Applicant will be in a much better position to compete against other stations by better being able to lower its costs, and advertising rates, due to its large market power.

5786 With the unprecedented large number of hours available to it, the Applicant will be free to change its programming on any or all of its stations to target competitors at will. As the Commission is aware, the Applicant will be able to do this without any further approval required.

5787 In a competitive market, the most effective way to compete is to lower your rates and, to do this, one must lower their costs. Who better to consistently bid the lowest rate than the person who controls 42 per cent of the market? How can the smaller stations like CIRV hope to compete over the long term?

5788 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention, has filed a new advertising survey which, for some reason known to it, neglected to file as part of its main application. This survey should be viewed in the proper context. The advertising survey provided by the Applicant contains businesses that are already existing clients of existing stations.

5789 The survey does not show objective evidence of untapped advertising revenue, but rather it shows evidence of the harm that will be caused to existing broadcasters if the Applicant is licensed when these clients switch their business to the new station.

5790 As the Commission will recall, I supported the change to the ethnic policy to allow for bilingual programming to be considered ethnic programming. This was to allow the existing broadcasters greater flexibility to serve the changing needs of their audience. It was not meant to be used to create a new station format to be used against the existing ethnic broadcasters. In fact, the bilingual format proposed by the Applicant is not unique and is currently used by ethnic broadcasters in their programming, including CHIN itself, which already offers bilingual programming to its listeners on its 1540 AM station.

5791 At the hearing, the Commission heard firsthand from Ms Sahota, a producer of some of the Applicant's existing bilingual ethnic programming. This is clear evidence that existing broadcasters are in a good position to serve this need among ethnic listeners.

5792 In 1994, the Commission denied an application for a new ethnic station due to the negative impact of such a new station on existing broadcasting services. The conclusion reached in 1994 is equally applicable today: the application should be denied.

5793 CIRV's continued existence may be threatened if the Applicant is licensed due to its desire to offer more programming directly in competition with CIRV. Faced with this knowledge, the Applicant has failed to provide "compelling evidence to the contrary" and therefore its application should be denied.

5794 Granting the licence to the Applicant will increase CHIN Radio's empire, concentration of ownership, control of the ethnic market, which may lead to it becoming a monopoly in the Greater Toronto ethnic radio market. This is certainly not in the public's best interest. The bottom line is that CIRV, as well as the other ethnic broadcasters in Greater Toronto, will be materially harmed if the Applicant is granted the licence.

5795 Still on the Radio 1540 application, I would briefly like to address one final aspect.

5796 This is not the first time the Applicant has come to the Commission for assistance for the technical problems of 1540 AM. In fact, the Applicant has already been provided with sufficient relief, as CHIN was granted a low power FM transmitter repeater licence so that it could improve the night-time coverage of its AM signal to certain areas in Greater Toronto. How much more does the Applicant expect?

5797 The Commission has helped the Applicant and is not entitled to any other relief, especially when the relief sought will most definitely harm existing broadcasters. CIRV notes that it has survived, notwithstanding that it has a much smaller coverage area than CHIN FM or CHIN AM daytime.

5798 If the Applicant truly believes the 740 AM frequency will solve its technical problems for its AM operations, why is it not proposing a frequency swap and agree to give up its 1540 AM, and the low power repeater, 101.3 FM, frequencies in exchange for the 740 AM frequency? This would help solve its technical problems and not result in any material harm to existing broadcasters. If the Applicant had proposed this, CIRV would not be here intervening today in opposition.

5799 We note that the Applicant, in its reply to our intervention, highlighted the fact that it received a large number of positive interventions. We wish to remind the Commission of our previous statements that these interventions should be taken in context. The Applicant openly solicited these interventions on a TV show that the Applicant is involved with. Are these interventions a groundswell of support or the result of a well organized advertising campaign?

5800 At the hearing, we heard Mr. Lombardi speak about a catalogue containing 1,000 different titles of ethnic music. This is the first time that I have heard of this, and would encourage Mr. Lombardi to share this catalog with the rest of the ethnic broadcasters and members to the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters. As the Commission is aware, the idea for a catalog was advocated by CIRV Radio during the ethnic policy review proceeding. CIRV continues to support this initiative, and has committed $3,000 a year to support this measure.

5801 I will now turn my comments to why we are intervening in the application of Infinity Broadcasting for a new multicultural service operating on 740 AM. In our view, if this application is approved, it will have serious negative consequences on the existing ethnic broadcasters.

5802 The Applicant, in its reply to our intervention, tries to paint the view many times that the only reason why CIRV is against its proposed services is to merely prevent them from becoming a new member of the Toronto ethnic broadcasting community or to protect our turf. I want to make it very clear that we are not afraid of competition, either from new broadcasters or from existing ethnic broadcasters.

5803 CIRV's concern arises due to our sincere belief that the already existing ethnic stations, and many SCMO services, are more than sufficient to meet Toronto's ethnic community needs. The competition is already intense in Toronto. By adding a new competitor whose primary language group, South Asian, is clearly receiving a significant amount of programming, will necessarily hurt existing ethnic broadcasters. This cannot be in the public interest.

5804 The Applicant takes great pains to state that it will not be providing programming to groups already being served by existing ethnic broadcasters. The Applicant states that its Hindustani programming is not being offered by other broadcasters. CIRV does not disagree with the applicant.

5805 Our point is that the South Asian community is already receiving a significant amount of programming. The community interested in Hindustani programming is from the same community which understands both the Hindi and Punjabi languages.

5806 If you increase programming which caters to these communities, you create choices. This may cause the audience to leave existing stations and follow the programming of the Applicant. Once such persons leave, there is a risk that they will not return to the existing station.

5807 The Applicant also has failed to indicate whether it intends to air its South Asian programming during time slots which overlap with the South Asian programming on existing broadcasters. This lack of information makes it difficult for the public and for the Commission to judge the effect of the Applicant's proposed service on existing ethnic broadcasters. Is the Applicant prepared to accept a condition of licence that it will ensure its South Asian programming does not overlap with the South Asian programming of existing broadcasters?

5808 The South Asian radio programming already available in Toronto represents almost an entire broadcasting week. This is not indicative of a group which is "badly unserved", as the Applicant claims.

5809 CIRV currently provides a significant amount of Hindi and Punjabi programming offering seven hours per week, between 6:00 a.m. and midnight, and 18 hours between midnight and 6:00 a.m., three times a week. The Applicant, in its reply, has stated that advertising on its station will represent new radio dollars. This is because, he argues, advertisers are anxious to reach the South Asian communities which are "badly or unserved". As it is clear from the facts, this is not the case. The South Asian community enjoys the second most amount of radio programming in Toronto, second only to the Chinese community.

5810 As well, the Applicant states that advertisers are concerned about the quality of programming which currently is available in Toronto. It is interesting to note that the Applicant did not say that advertisers were concerned about the quantity of programming, but rather the quality. The Applicant did not provide any further details of this concern, but this statement would tend to suggest that advertisers are looking to switch their ads from existing programs to the programs to be offered by the new station. This will then result in harm to existing broadcasters.

5811 The Applicant has failed to provide real evidence that there exists a sufficient audience for its station in order to support it without taking significant audiences from existing ethnic broadcasters.

5812 The Applicant has also failed to establish that there exists a real and demonstrable need for more South Asian programming. The Applicant states that since a good portion of the South Asian programming is geared towards the Punjabi community, this means that the audience for the Hindustani language is unserved. This completely ignores the fact that the Punjabi community understands the Hindustani language, North of Hindi, and will likely be a significant part of the audience of the Applicant's station. The Applicant states that it will not be targeting the Punjabi community as its audience or business advertising base. Is the Applicant prepared to accept this as a condition of licence?

5813 In its reply to our intervention, the Applicant argues that the lack of negative interventions from independent producers and those brokering air time on existing ethnic broadcasters somehow supports the Applicant's view that CIRV's intervention is somehow lacking. This statement of the Applicant is curious. Why would these groups be against the new ethnic station? These groups' bargaining power only increases if a new station is licensed, as airtime increases making the demand for their services more intense. It is not at all surprising that these groups have chosen not to intervene.

5814 In conclusion to our two interventions, we firmly believe that Toronto deserves new and unique radio services, not more of the same. The 740 AM frequency is Greater Toronto's last remaining major frequency, and CIRV urges the Commission to weigh each application carefully to ensure that the new service warrants being granted the 740 AM frequency.

5815 While the 93.5 FM and 106.3 FM frequencies are not as powerful as 740 AM, they are still valuable frequencies and should be used for a new type of service to give Toronto more diversity in radio programming. CIRV submits that the Greater Toronto broadcasting market would be better off if the Commission delays in licensing anyone now and reserves the frequencies if it is not satisfied that there are worthy applications before it.

5816 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I ask you to consider our comments here today and those in our written interventions in the previously mentioned applications and, in doing so, respectfully request that both of the applications be denied.

5817 We ask the Commission, with all fairness, to remember that when the Commission years ago first awarded a licence to CIRV, we promised the Commission and our communities our best efforts to fulfil our commitment to the fullest. Now we ask you, is it fair to have all that we achieved destroyed?

5818 I leave you all with this question in your thoughts, and I have no doubt that your decision will be taken with a lot of fairness, as it always has in the past, and I am sure will continue to do so in the future.

5819 Thank you, and I am pleased to respond to your questions, if you have any.

5820 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Alvarez.

5821 Commissioner Wilson.

5822 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you.

5823 Mr. Alvarez, I have a few questions for you. It will not be too long, though.

5824 In both of your interventions, and I do want to spend a little bit of time with you because you are intervening as an ethnic broadcaster against other potential ethnic broadcasters, and one of the reasons that you state is that you really feel that the communities are well served.

5825 I too participated in the ethnic broadcasting policy review, and frankly that is not the message that I heard. That is why I want to ask you some questions about how you arrived at that position.

5826 On the one hand, I can certainly respect your right to intervene and to try and protect your business interests as an ethnic broadcaster in Toronto, but if you raise that as the reason, that the communities are well enough served already, then it just makes me curious. So I would like to explore some of that.

5827 I would also like to explore the specific impact that it is going to have on you, because although you kind of list that as the secondary reason, I think that that is certainly a significant concern for you, that the impact that any new ethnic broadcaster would have.

5828 The first thing I wanted to clarify, though, is that in your intervention you mention, in both of your interventions actually, on Radio 1540 and Infinity, you talk about the Commission tests -- the presence of adequate untapped advertising revenues, and that sufficient audience exists for the proposed service.

5829 I just wanted to clarify with you where precisely you saw that those criteria as identified as tests that the Commission would apply, or were they simply reasons given in the denial of that particular application at that particular time.

5830 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Since that hearing, the Commission has licensed 1430. That hearing, if I remember correctly, was in 1994, I believe.

5831 Since then, we have another full ethnic broadcast in Toronto, 1430. Since then, we have new services. We have a couple of television stations that were licensed. In the case of the South Asian television stations, they have 24 hours of South Asian services, including aboriginal, four hours a day, with Hindustani and Hindu languages.

5832 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Although that service is a premium television service, which charges a very large fee per month. It does not come as part of basic cable. Is that right?

5833 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: I am not sure. I believe it is available now on the cable operators, but I am not sure what the fees are involved on that, but it is available in Greater Toronto.

5834 Since that, as well there were quite a few SCMO services, specialty services, that were approved by the Commission. If we were to talk about the South Asian community, there are a couple of SCMO 24 hours full services directed to the South Asian community.

5835 If there are some groups that -- you may have heard that through the ethnic policy review. You may have heard that there is some need for some groups, but those are the minor groups.

5836 The minor groups, those are in some cases the ones that may be underserved, but those can be accommodated by the existing broadcasters because, you know, sometimes it is difficult because those smaller groups, they don't have the revenue base to support themselves. In order for them to have access, through established ethnic broadcasters so that the main groups, the main languages can support those that do not have the revenue base.

5837 Overall, it is our view that the ethnic communities, in terms of radio, are well served in Greater Toronto.

5838 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Let me just ask you a couple of specific questions about each of the applications. I will deal with the Radio 1540 one first.

5839 What I wanted to explore with you is the actual incremental increase in Portuguese programming on Radio 1540, because you mentioned the 16.5 hours. I went through and counted up the different programs on CHIN FM, CHIN AM, and on 1540 and then on 740 as well, and came to a total of 16.5 hours, as you pointed out. But in the schedule for the new station, they only show 1.5 hours of Portuguese programming.

5840 What I am trying to find out is, what are they doing now? You mentioned that they did not file a schedule for 1540 and for 100.7 FM, but you seem to have one somewhere, because you are quoting some figures for the programming that they are playing.

5841 I am just trying to sort out what the actual incremental increase in Portuguese programming would be for this application.

5842 How much of the 16.5 hours is currently being broadcast?

5843 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: My understanding is that the 16.5 hours is in addition of the number of hours that they have on the 100.7 FM.

5844 CHIN, I believe -- I do not have the CHIN FM schedule in front of me, but I believe that CHIN is doing Monday to Friday, from 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m.

5845 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Right.

5846 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: And then they are doing, on the week-end, Saturday --

5847 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You mentioned Sunday, 6:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m.

5848 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: 6:00 to 8:30 for the FM, Sunday morning.

5849 COMMISSIONER WILSON: And 5:00 to 7:00 on Mondays to Fridays?

5850 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: 5:00 to 7:00, Monday to Fridays, on the FM. Sunday, 6:00 to 8:30, and Saturday -- what I do not have is the schedule of CHIN FM.

5851 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So what you are saying, then, is that the cumulative impact, the 1.5 hours a week that shows in the application for 740 AM for CHIN, is only a part. That is only a part of the increase, that is not the total impact.

5852 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: All I am saying, Madam Commissioner, is that CHIN AM has Portuguese, 5:00 to 7:00 Monday to Friday, then on Saturday they have 7:00 to 10:00 a.m. in Portuguese, on Saturday. And they have 6:00 to 8:30 on Sunday. This is currently on CHIN FM.

5853 When I look at their new schedule for the CHIN AM, they are proposing Portuguese -- this is the current schedule, and this is the proposed schedule. So they are proposing, in Portuguese, from 7:00 to 9:30. So what would happen, this would go Monday to Friday. It will go 5:00 to 7:00 on the FM, then from 7:00 to 9:30 a.m. they would go AM.

5854 The difference on this, including the weekends, is 16.5 hours more per week, which represents the 26 per cent over and above what they are doing.

5855 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. Thank you.

5856 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: But just not only, Madam Commissioner, is the fact that if CHIN was granted a new licence to operate 740, CHIN can, in fact, increase more hours on the CHIN FM without any approval from the Commission.

5857 Our great concern is that in fact CHIN would have 378 hours of ethnic in their hands, so really they can do almost whatever, like switching around, so it is not possible to compete when we have only 126 hours. It is very, very hard to compete with another ethnic broadcaster that has 378 hours at his disposal. Even though he may show only an increase of 16.5 hours in Portuguese for now, but later on he may decide to put another 20 hours on top, and then what can CIRV do? Nothing.

5858 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Would it be fair to say that the CHIN application, if approved, would have a more significant impact on you than the Infinity proposal?

5859 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: We believe, first of all, Madam Commissioner, that Greater Toronto does not need any further new ethnic stations --

5860 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I understood that point quite clearly, but if you have to choose between the two, I mean, none of the other ethnic broadcasters are intervening on the same basis. They are not intervening at all against those two applications, so presumably -- well, you can't read anything into the silence, but they are not intervening, so --

5861 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: If I may suggest, Madam Commissioner, the fact that there are applicants for different services on 740, perhaps that is the reason why they are not intervening.

5862 In any event, if I had to choose between both CHIN and Infinity, we have based ourselves on their proposed programming schedule and, by looking at both, we believe that Infinity's proposed schedule would have less harmful effect on CIRV FM, as long as they would be provided with a condition of licence disallowing them of making any changes to their proposed language groups, including serving Portuguese, and not overlap the current South Asian programming. Of course this does not necessarily mean that CIRV FM supports the Infinity application.

5863 In the case of CHIN, if the applicant is licensed, it will control almost half of the whole ethnic programming hours in Toronto. The applicant will have three out of seven stations. This will give the applicant unprecedented market power. With three stations, with 378 hours a week to program, the applicant will be in a good position to utilize the hours in a predatory fashion.

5864 CHIN, this programming power, when combined with the ability to spread costs of the three stations, makes the situation even worse for the existing stations. The three stations will give the applicant, by its own admission, significant economies of scale. This means that the applicant will be able to reduce his costs significantly, which in turn will allow the advertising rates to be lowered as well.

5865 For fear of sounding dramatic, if the applicant, in the case of CHIN, is licensed, there is a real chance that CIRV will be forced to go out of business. CIRV has been providing quality programming service for many years. We have served the communities well. We want to continue to do so. We are not afraid of competition, but what I am talking about is unfair competition, Madam Commissioner.

5866 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I guess that is partly what I am trying to get at, Mr. Alvarez. If you say that you are not afraid of competition but you oppose both of the ethnic applications --

5867 Let me ask you two more specific questions with respect to the Infinity proposal, for example. One of the points that you make about the viability of their proposal has to do with whether or not there is enough advertising to sustain the additional programming.

5868 Have you looked at the letters of intervention on file for Infinity Broadcasting, wherein certain amounts of money -- I am just wondering whether any people had advertised with you.

5869 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: There is no guarantee that these advertising dollars will be generated of the new advertisers. At the end of the day, Madam Commissioner, what I have been indicating to the Commission today, or trying to deliver a message, for that matter, is that the South Asian community is well served. It has the most programming hours, second only to the Chinese. It has more hours than Italian or Portuguese.

5870 At the end of the day, it is the same community.

5871 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You have made that point, and I appreciate that.

5872 Are any of these people who have committed advertising dollars, or any of these businesses that have committed advertising dollars, do any of them advertise with you, or are they different?

5873 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: I believe that some of those members are part of our clientele on CIRV, yes.

5874 COMMISSIONER WILSON: In terms of the overall notion that Toronto does not need another ethnic station, Mr. Robson, during the presentation by Infinity, talked about the incredible growth in the ethnic population, and the overall impact that that is having on the demographics in the city, and that it is increasing at the rate of 70,000 people per year, that there has been a significant increase, 200,000 since 1996 and continues to expand at the rate of over 70,000 immigrants per year.

5875 With growth taking place that significant a rate, would that not suggest that there would be some extra need for another ethnic station? What is the threshold?

5876 I guess the point that I am trying to get is, while I appreciate your concerns, you have suggested that neither of the applicants has quantified whether or not there is audience, or demand. You have not really quantified the other side of the argument for me. You have not really shown me what the negative impact is going to be of having another ethnic station in the market, especially in view of the fact that under the new ethnic broadcasting policy, with the relaxation of the broad service rule, there is a possibility to serve a smaller number of communities. If a particular market has a large number of outlets, broadcast outlets, you could rationalize your schedule and serve perhaps a smaller number of communities and increase the quality of the service that you are providing to those communities. It means making changes to your business, but --

5877 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: First of all, I am not quite sure that this study that Infinity made in terms of increases, according to Stats Canada -- I believe that they were overstated.

5878 It is hard to believe that those figures were taken only from the contour that 740 has. I find the figures to be overstated in terms of increases, by looking at the Statistics Canada of 1996.

5879 We came to the conclusion, and it is part of our intervention filed with the Commission, that we have reason to believe that those figures were overstated. But at the same time now, with policy review, the Commission should allow some time to the current ethnic broadcasters to adjust themselves with this 50 per cent bilingual format programming, which in part we are already doing.

5880 We have proven in the past that we are able to meet the needs of those smaller groups that need access to the airwaves, so in the past the current ethnic stations have provided relief to those minor groups that have requested air time. I am sure that we would continue to do so, but at the same time I would suggest that we need some time to accommodate to this new format, to reflect the changes on the new ethnic policy.

5881 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Alvarez.

5882 Those are all my questions.

5883 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5884 Thank you, Mr. Alvarez and your colleagues. We will probably see you in the audience, if not before us, before the end of this proceeding.

5885 Mr. Secretary please.

5886 MR. FRANK ALVAREZ: Before I leave, Madam Chair, I would like to take the opportunity to wish a very Happy Millennium to the Commission as they attend this hearing.

5887 Thank you very much.

5888 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Pray for us!

5889 Mr. Secretary, please.

5890 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

5891 We will now hear the intervention by Dufferin Communications Incorporated please.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5892 MR. BILL EVANOV: Good morning, Madam Chairperson and Commissioners. My name is Bill Evanov, from CIDC FM. Seated on my right is Carmela Laurignano; on my left, our sales manager, Fidele Naccarato; to the table behind us, on my right, your left, our news director, Barry Horne; and on my left, your right, our program and music director, Ken Stowar.

5893 The CIDC is an independent, which pioneered the CHR format on FM in the Toronto CMA, a CMA of which Orangeville is very much a part of.

5894 It is our view that the proposal by Milestone for a new music service on 93.5 would have a negative impact on existing broadcasters, and particularly CIDC FM. While a play list was not been provided by Milestone, we do note that the music styles they proposed would duplicate significantly the program undertakings of CISS FM and CING FM, and CIDC FM, all deriving audience and income from the Toronto CMA. The advertisers Milestone is identifying as sources of revenue are the same businesses we have been developing. It is the same CHR pie.

5895 Ken.

5896 MR. KEN STOWAR: It is our view that there is significant duplication of music and programming direction on the existing Toronto radio stations. The specific details have been included in our written intervention under Appendix A. While a detailed play list was not provided with Milestone's application, our review of the limited list of titles and artists offered shows there is considerable duplication of the music already offered by CIDC FM and other radio stations already licensed to serve a portion of the CMA.

5897 In its application, Milestone submitted a sample artist and music list on page 45 and 46. Of the 73 artists represented on the list, 57, or 78 per cent, are represented in the music universe available to the Toronto CMA through CIDC FM. Many of these artists are also part of the music universe of CISS FM and CING FM.

5898 Of the 73 titles listed, 44 are part of the universe of CIDC FM, which means a duplication of 60 per cent. Again, most of these titles are further duplicated by CISS FM and CING FM.

5899 While not forming part of the example of music to be actually programmed, the Applicant did submit, on pages 43 and 44 of its application, a list of Canadian Artists Active in Urban Music. Of the 68 distinct Canadian artists on this list, 63 per cent are presently available for airplay as part of the music universe for CIDC FM.

5900 MR. BARRY HORNE: In his presentation to the Commission, Mr. Jolly alluded to the creation of a 'competitive pressure situation' in the Toronto market, and Milestone has identified the radio format they propose to establish as operating in the urban format.

5901 In order to analyze the crossover of artists and music from the Urban variation of CHR to other variations, we examined the national Urban Chart published by Radio and Records Magazine for the week ending February 4, 2000. Our analysis showed that 43 per cent of the music identified as most played in the Urban format was duplicated in the Rhythmic/CHR format. A comparison of the same Urban chart with the weekly play list of CIDC FM produced an artist duplication of 60 per cent. This clearly indicates that these two stations will be playing largely the same music by the same artists.

5902 MR. FIDELE NACCARATO: Our experience and the research filed with the application tell us that the core audience for Milestone will be between the ages of 18-34. Their data shows 57 per cent of their target audience will be derived from this demo.

5903 While this age group accounts for just under 30 per cent of the total population of Toronto, a report presented to the Toronto broadcasters by BBM earlier this month shows that this age group is declining. BBM showed that men 18-34 alone suffered a decline of 8.2 per cent in population and a decrease in overall hours tuned to radio of 5.7 per cent between fall 1998 and fall 1999. Furthermore, they project this trend will continue until 2002.

5904 Milestone also claims to be deriving a portion of its revenue from the repatriation of dollars flowing out of the country, and in particular to WBLK. However, once again we are concerned about the legitimacy of this claim.

5905 WBLK only has a 12-plus share of 0.7 of the Toronto CMA, according to the Spring 1999 BBM. The applicant claims to be able to reclaim a significant portion of these revenues, but we are convinced that this is not possible. First of all, a listen to WBLK will reveal that the vast majority of Canadian advertisers are dance or music clubs. Because of the mix of music CIDC FM plays, we too are targeting this advertising category and have achieved some moderate success.

5906 Two things hamper us, however, in repatriating Canadian dollars, dollars that, we heard today, to total less than half a million dollars: (1) Our signal does not cover the full CMA, which would be a problem facing Milestone; and (2) A portion of the dollars spent are meant for a Buffalo audience because there is a terrific market for clubs in Buffalo which, given its size, does not have as much choice for the 18-34 dance lover. We cannot touch the budget allocated to reach the Buffalo market, and we would argue that an urban contemporary format on 93.5 cannot either.

5907 That leaves Milestone to go after the club advertisers that are either currently advertising with CIDC FM or are advertisers we are currently working on selling. When the revenues they anticipate from repatriation do not materialize, they will have no choice but to target directly clients for all of the stations with similar formats in the CMA. As the most vulnerable, we will lose the most.

5908 Therefore, Milestone poses two direct threats to our revenue base: (1) Audience erosion, because of an overlap of music styles, and (2) an expressed intent and inevitable need to target our advertisers.

5909 MR. BILL EVANOV: In summary, Madam Chairperson, CIDC FM defends its right to intervene in this matter as a license holder residing within the Toronto CMA, as defined by both Stats Canada and the market.

5910 It is our conclusion that:

5911 (1) The application filed by Milestone will have a serious and negative impact on the operation of our station and of other stations within the CMA.

5912 (2) This impact will be created by introducing new competition into a segment of the market that is currently served in whole or in part by existing broadcasters.

5913 (3) There are no programming or service enhancements for Toronto with this application, one of the stated CRTC requirements for use of this frequency. And given the overlap in music styles, the applicant will not be bringing diversity to the market, as claimed.

5914 As a result, Dufferin Communications, on behalf of CIDC, wishes to intervene in opposition to this application, and in opposition to the SHARE application, on the same grounds.

5915 Thank you.

5916 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov.

5917 Commissioner Grauer please.

5918 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Evanov. I just have a couple of questions. It should not take too long.

5919 With respect to both applications, your principal opposition is that they will not bring any added diversity and that it is essentially the same format.

5920 What I would like to do is, first, with respect to Milestone, in their response to your intervention they indicated that your CDC is best characterized as a contemporary hit radio format station, focusing on current songs reaching hit status.

5921 Do you agree with that statement on their part?

5922 MR. BILL EVANOV: Not exactly, and I think I will have our music director, Barry Horne, address that definition.

5923 MR. BARRY HORNE: To answer your question, 73 per cent of the music that CIDC programs would fall under a Dance CHR sound. Most of that music is derived from the street. Eventually what happens to many of those same songs is that they do reach what I will refer to as chart status.

5924 The one thing that CIDC has been proud of over the past five years is having the street savvy to bring a lot of these recordings, and in particular many Canadian artists and more specifically local artists.

5925 The amount of music that -- if you look a look at our play list today, probably 60 per cent will now be on a chart. The other 40 per cent, into the 35-40 per cent range, will not charted material. But I will just reiterate, it eventually will make its way.

5926 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Then with respect to Milestone's proposed FM, which they categorize as authentic urban music, is that how you then also categorize your own?

5927 What I am trying to understand is what the difference is.

5928 MR. BARRY HORNE: The only way I could compare with what we presently do and have done with Milestone is take a look at the lists that were available to me. As I stated in my opening remarks, that the duplication was extremely high.

5929 I was looking for the difference, and I did not really find a significant difference with the play list that Milestone provided. Then again I have to restate that again the duplication is there with CISS FM and CING FM.

5930 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: With regard to that, as you know, they have not intervened in opposition to this. Can you understand that, or help explain that to us?

5931 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: Madam Commissioner, I just wanted to qualify one thing, or at least make it more clearer, that when you are talking CHR, it is hit radio. So it is a hit ratio that is played in combination with other types of music, which hopefully incorporates new artists, hopefully incorporates a variation of a similar exact play list. In our case, we do some Dance versus straight Pop, as some of our competitors do.

5932 When you are talking a hit format, these days you have to speak Urban, because the Urban and the Hip Hop has crossed over. They are the hits as well. So one does not necessarily negate the other. And that is where the duplication happens. Perhaps Barry would have something to add to that.

5933 MR. BARRY HORNE: Madam Commissioner, if I could add to what Carmela is saying.

5934 When you look at Hit radio and how it has evolved, there are several variations at the CHR format. There is really a Pop CHR, there is a Dance CHR, an Urban is another variation of CHR, especially when you are going to target an audience as young as both of these proposed radio stations say they will target.

5935 If you look at the cross-over of weekly play lists from the Urban format, and again we went to an American chart, because at the moment there is no Canadian Urban chart, Radio and Records Magazine, compared to their Rhythmic CHR for the week, the cross over between those two charts alone is 43 per cent, a very significant cross over of music and artists.

5936 Many of these artists form part of the daily and weekly play lists for CIDC FM or CISS FM and CING FM as well.

5937 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Again perhaps you could maybe tell me -- I guess what we are wondering is why you are the only station which has intervened on the basis of concern about the format, or at all in fact.

5938 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: I know the answer to that.

5939 It was not because we were trying to break a Guiness Book of World Records for most appearances by an independent broadcaster before a panel during two weeks.

5940 I think, I know, we are in a situation that is limited by a number of things, by our technical parameters, by a history of the station, by our own heritage and conviction as to what we want to do, which is to stick with the format that we have.

5941 We cannot really answer for why nobody else did. I know that one of them is an out-of-market station, and the other one has achieved quite a bit of success in the last little while. So I could not really speculate what their motives are.

5942 This is serious business for us, and we feel we have the most to lose and feel the most threatened, because we will rely on the same advertising revenues, because it is a duplication of music, which will erode our audience as well.

5943 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: With respect to SHARE's application, I know that in the response to your intervention, Mr. Calderone differentiated their proposal significantly from what is existing currently, by stating the differences and how the music is selected, sequenced, mixed, group combined, and presented.

5944 He stated further that one can hear some of the music some of the time in this market, but one cannot hear all the music all the time on any one.

5945 I am wondering if you could comment on that.

5946 MR. BARRY HORNE: While we have a deep appreciation on Mr. Calderone's knowledge of the music and his credibility in this area, to be frank, his credibility in broadcast programming is somewhat more limited.

5947 I think if you want to determine exactly how that radio station will probably sound, you might want to look at the experiences of the two people on their panel who have the depth in programming, being Mr. Wood and Mr. Templeton. Both are highly familiar with the need to have radio stations generate familiarity within their audiences in order to be successful.

5948 Certainly the radio stations that Mr. Wood has consulted have been well served by this advice, and Mr. Templeton is aware that this very move has been responsible for the change of fortunes for several of the stations purchased by NewCap.

5949 With that history, and that is general market knowledge. It is radio knowledge. That works.

5950 This radio station, in order to succeed and meet the commitments that it has made to you in terms of both its audience and financial projections, will have to be a very familiar radio station, and that means a hit radio station.

5951 Again, I will go back to the reference of cross-over among formats. It is very high.

5952 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So, if I understand you, and correct me if I am not getting this right, what you are saying is that notwithstanding what they have proposed, that in fact what they will put on the air is going to be something different than what they proposed, but --

5953 MR. BARRY HORNE: Perhaps, Madam Commissioner, what they would put on the air initially, but I would say reality will set in very quickly.

5954 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: If I might add just one thing, because I was involved in some of the response or at least the analysis of Mr. Calderone's response to our thing.

5955 I was told that while he identified 49 music styles, we could probably identify 200 music styles, but you have to net those down. So when it comes down to it, the music genre is much narrower. It is like saying that you are playing Walter Austinack or John Gora, but the sound that they are playing is Polka, because they are both Polka players, accordion players and other types of things.

5956 The sound is also very important. What would come out of the box is important as well.

5957 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.

5958 Could you tell me what impact the approval of the SHARE FM application to operate a new station would have on your audience and your revenues, for both actually, Milestone and SHARE.

5959 MR. BILL EVANOV: I can let Fidele get into that in a moment, but we will severely be impacted by either of the applicants, whether it is Milestone or SHARE, in the Toronto market. There is one advertising pie that agencies buy, and that is the CHR pie. And there is so much revenue for this particular age demo and this particular market in there, so whatever audience they will achieve in Toronto -- I am going by their projections -- of high share numbers, that could wipe out totally in the expenditures to our radio station.

5960 Fidele, you may want to expand on that.

5961 MR. FIDELE NACCARATO: Thank you.

5962 Looking at basically what is happening with the share projections from both SHARE and Milestone, and taking into consideration that SHARE has projected themselves with an 8 share, which would put them in the top five stations in the market, and taking into consideration also that each share point equals a million dollars in business, they would basically have the same advertising revenue as a 680 news or CFMY would in the market. That would have a huge impact on us as well as other radio stations in the market.

5963 As far as Milestone, with a 3.1 projected share and also 1.7 million dollars from that would come from existing radio stations, and understanding that they are also in their application targeting nightclubs in the market, it would cause definite hardship to our advertising revenue.

5964 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I have one more question.

5965 You have stated that unless SHARE is extremely successful in the first licence period, that NewCap, who is the single largest shareholder, could become the sole owner of the station. I wonder if you could tell me why this is problematic for you.

5966 MR. BILL EVANOV: For a number of hearings, I think both applicants have made the argument that a certain service should come from their particular community, where it would have their particular ownership.

5967 If they are licensed, and our concern is if they are licensed and down the road it changes, then those arguments that we have heard before were immaterial.

5968 It puts another major player into the market, in both cases. They are both backed by Standard and by NewCap. We have mentioned it because we have noted that in the application. It just concerned us, maybe initially, as to who would really operate the station, and it tied in more with our feeling that there were perhaps MLAs, or there was reference to certain cost sharings and combos or whatever, so the impact of that could definitely hurt us.

5969 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: I think as well we were concerned about the programming orientation, that that would be maintained as well -- or that could possibly be eroded down the line at some unclear line, not knowing where it was.

5970 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: But I gather you feel that this is a very successful format, and that you expect them to be very successful at your expense, but you are saying in the event that that does not happen, that this could happen.

5971 MS CARMELA LAURIGNANO: That is the other thing that we are afraid of. With the expertise of a Standard and a NewCap, and stated, both in the oral presentation and in the written presentation, that both these applicants would be relying on what they call synergies, that we dispute, that it would be more of a force to be reckoned with, for us who are strong independent broadcasters.

5972 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Those are all my questions. Thank you very much.

5973 Thank you, Madam Chair.

5974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Evanov, and your colleagues.

5975 We will now break for lunch, and resume at 2:00, with appearing intervenors, in the order I mentioned this morning, that is, interventions to CHWR, I believe. Thank you.

5976 Nous reprendrons à 2 heures.

--- Luncheon recess at 1235 / Suspension à 1235

--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

5977 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

5978 Mr. Secretary please.

5979 MR. PETER CUSSONS: This afternoon we will be hearing a number of supporting intervenors, particularly supporting the application by CHWO.

5980 The first one this afternoon is Mr. Jack Miller.

5981 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr. Miller.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

5982 MR. JACK MILLER: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission.

5983 Before I start, I hope you did not mind too much this morning my getting up and helping myself to a drink of water from the press people table. My throat was dry, and I couldn't help noticing no one was using the facilities anyway.

5984 We are dealing here with 740 AM Toronto. This is an enormous signal, enormous. We have, in Ontario, more than 11 million people, more than one-third the national population. Here we have the second largest country in the face of the earth, and more than one-third of the population -- if in Ontario and almost of those people are reached by 740 AM. This morning, while this was being decided --

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5985 MR. JACK MILLER: I am not here to promote the interest of any broadcaster or would-be broadcaster. I take it that all the applicants here are decent and sincere people. Whichever one gets the licence will in fact deliver the service they promised.

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5986 MR. JACK MILLER: I am more concerned about those target audiences, and they are an interesting array.

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

5987 MR. JACK MILLER: I am willing to concede that all of those are decent and deserving also. But there is a question of common sense here, and fairness, and propriety.

5988 You see, several of these decent, deserving target audiences are located in pockets. The Italian language audience in Toronto is huge, and it is marvellous, and one of the closest friends I have ever had in my life is part of that, Dan Inutzi. We had dinner with he and his wife last night, my wife and I. Johnny Lombardi I count as an old friend from years back.

5989 The Toronto Black community is huge, and vibrant, and wonderful. The Toronto Chinese community is huge, and vibrant, and wonderful, and exciting, and changing things. But they are Toronto communities, and there is this enormous signal that covers almost all of the population of Ontario.

5990 Most of the population is down in this southern strip, as we know, and this signal, theoretically, on its coverage chart reaches from beyond London in the west to beyond Peterborough in the east, but we all know perfectly well, from years and years and years of experience with it, when the CBC was running it, that it comes in most of the time all the way from Windsor to Ottawa, all of Ontario practically. I'm sorry. Now the people in the north are going to be mad at me, because I have written them off. Well, I shouldn't do that. That's not nice. The fact is, the signal covers almost all the population of Ontario.

5991 In this massive coverage area, the age 50-plus audience members are everywhere. We are everywhere. And of all these target audiences, only one other has its members everywhere. And that is the application for the Children Service. So let's look at that.

5992 This is an AM signal. Children, generally, can hear sound up to about 15,000 cycles. That's Hi-Fi sound. And FM radio actually transmits sound up to about 15,000 cycles, and a surprising number of the radio receivers, the sets built by manufacturers to reproduce these sounds, do in fact reproduce sound up to 15,000 cycles. So you could say children have FM ears.

5993 Now, look at us, 50-plus. If you check with experts, and I have done this, you will find that when people get to be age 50, they are lucky to be able to hear any sound above 8,000 cycles. They would have to turn up the volume. I am uneasy with this, because it is technical, but I think it is worth pointing out. You have to turn up the volume to hear 8,000 cycles, and when you get to be 60, you have to turn up the volume and more to hear 8,000 cycles. When you get to be 70, it may be beyond hope.

5994 Let's turn now, for the moment, to AM radio.

5995 AM radio, theoretically, can transmit sound up to 15,000 cycles too, but there are a number of problems with it in the upper registers, and there are standards that apply to it that result in the engineers filtering the sound down to about a limit of 10,000 cycles. But the fact is, most manufacturers who make radio receivers these days don't think much of AM any more. They don't consider it a good market, they don't make good sets. You will have a hard time finding an AM radio that will deliver sound at higher than 5,000 cycles. I have gone through this with several engineers.

5996 I have not, by the way, talked to any of the applicants here about the facts I am using for my conclusions because, while they are all decent and sincere people, they are all biased as well. So I have gone outside them.

5997 Some of the people I have spoken to work for broadcasters who are owned by friends of the owners of some of these applicants, so they do not want their names mentioned because if you go the way I want you to go, their employer's friends won't be very happy.

5998 AM radio sets, by and large, produce sound at up to 5,000 cycles. That is not as bad as it might sound because the average telephone line, when you are talking on it, will not deliver sound above 3,500 cycles. So you can follow a sound fairly well, but the fact is, we people 50-plus have AM ears. There is something else to think about.

5999 It is the experience of a lot of broadcasters, and I have spoken to them and they have tried this, that kids do not listen to AM radio. Kids listen to FM radio. So, what could possibly be the sense of putting a children's radio service on a frequency that is custom designed for people who have AM ears, and not put it on a service that is custom designed for people -- the children, that is -- who have FM ears?

6000 Children's radio service should be on FM, not only because it suits them, but because they listen to FM. That is where kids go when they go to the radio.

6001 You might say we have made great personal sacrifice by adapting ourselves, the 50-plus people, to AM, and here is your chance to make that sacrifice worthwhile.

6002 I don't work with a script, and I heard so many words this morning, and so much technical talk, and so much angry talk, that I have to stop and think about the very reasonable things that I want to say to you.

6003 It seems to me that if you are going to give this frequency to a broadcaster who would serve an audience group that is in pockets around the province, with Toronto the biggest of those pockets, that it would be something like buying a 40-room house, knowing perfectly well that you are only going to put people in three or four of the rooms: The people in those three or four rooms would be perfectly deserving, decent people, and they could get very good accommodating in those three or four rooms, but the facility, the house, the 40-room house, would be largely wasted.

6004 The facility we are talking about here, this signal that covers almost all of the population of Ontario, would be largely wasted if you give it to an audience that is only located in pockets around the province.

6005 These are all decent people. They have marvellous qualities. They deserve service. But I think we 50-plus deserve service too.

6006 Some people will say: But why should we really worry about you? You're pretty well off. You're from the privileged class, you 50-plus people. You are English-speaking people. You are privileged. The ethnic audience has had a hard time. The Black audience has had a hard time. The North American Natives have certainly had a hard time. They are deserving, and because you are privileged, you are not deserving.

6007 Well, let's look at that question of whether we are privileged or not, and whether we are deserving.

6008 I think anybody who has lived 50, 60, 70 years, has raised a family, paid taxes, has earned some points, should be thought of as deserving, but we can go farther than that.

6009 I believe that Canada is the best country in the world to call "home", and I have believed that for a long time, and I believe it more strongly every year. When I see the survey results coming in from the United Nations or whoever does it, it seems that the world agrees with me too. All over the world, people are polled and they say, the majority of them: Canada is the best place in the world to call home.

6010 But Canada was not always like this, and I want to talk to you about it a bit because, as a child, my parents had very good values and they tried to instill those values back at the time that I was a child. These values included: You must adore God. God is very impressive. God, in terms of being adorable, is second only to the King of England.

6011 And it was the King of England. We had no illusions about it being a King of Canada. And it was in fact a King. In fact, I go back two kings. I go back to George the IV and George the VI before the present Queen.

6012 My parents always told me: Be kind to people. But they made it clear, and all of their friends in the society here, the proper society, agreed with them and made it clear, the why you should be kind to everybody. You should understand that if somebody had the sound of eastern Europe in their voice, they were not like us. If someone had the look of the Orient on their face, they were not like us. If someone had a shade of skin darker than ours, they were not like us. They were from another class of being. They were perfectly nice, but not as nice as us.

6013 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Mr. Miller, forgive me, but we are beyond the 10-minute threshold. If you could perhaps summarize your thoughts please.

6014 MR. JACK MILLER: I will summarize it. I may need another two or three minutes. I noticed that one of the three who went before lunch -- I was hoping to get up before lunch -- went something like 20-25 minutes. Please indulge me.

6015 They were not like us. When I got old enough to start thinking for myself, at around age 10, I began to question these values. Very soon after that I began to reject them, and before long I despised them. And the country began to change. And now, look what we have.

6016 We have a hearing where groups, target audiences of all of these groups, are being proposed for service. And how did that happen? This is a fundamental change. You might say it is a natural change. It is automatic in an advanced, modern, decent country, but it is not. It is not necessarily automatic.

6017 It happened during the two generations that are represented by this 50-plus audience group, and I am part of that. Again, as I say, it is not automatic.

6018 If you were to ask a question of a national population, in any advanced presumably forward-looking country: "You are over 50 now; what have you done with your country? How has it changed in the time that you had to work with it"? What would be the answers you would get in different countries?

6019 If you went to Austria and asked that question, this week, of people 50-plus, "What have you done with your country?", "How has it changed in the time you had to work on it?", a proper answer in Austria would be, "We have Nazis back in our government now."

6020 Now, ask that question of Canadians 50-plus, "What have you done with your country?" "How has it changed in the time you have had to work on it?" An appropriate answer would be: Look around this room. People wanting to broadcast to Black Canadians, people wanting to broadcast to ethnic Canadians, people wanting to broadcast to Native Canadians, people wanting to broadcast to plain old Canadians 50-plus, all of them competing as equals -- equals. This was inconceivable when these two generations took control of this country and started to change it.

6021 This has happened in my time, and it has happened because people like me welcomed it, encouraged it, let it happen. And I think it is marvellous, and I am very proud of that. And there are no Nazis in our government, and I am proud of that too. And I think that earns us, us 50-plus people, some points. That is one of the reasons, probably the best reason, that I think we should be thought of as deserving too.

6022 If all the audience groups here, represented here, are equally unserved by radio, and I believe they are, and if all of them are equally deserving, and I believe they are, then those factors cancel each other out.

6023 In reaching a decision on who should get this frequency, you are left to rely on only the fundamental principle of democracy, and that is: The decision goes to the majority. And among the groups here, the audience group aged 50-plus is the overwhelming majority. And of the applicants represented here, only the CHWO people propose to serve that audience.

6024 Thank you for your time.

6025 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Miller.

6026 I would like to point out that this is a different phase, so you are not to compare the time allotted to these intervenors against the --

6027 MR. JACK MILLER: I understand that, but it is one of the only --

6028 THE CHAIRPERSON: By anyway we enjoyed your presentation.

6029 MR. JACK MILLER: Thank you. It is an old newspaperman's trick. We will try anything to keep talking!

6030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6031 Mr. Secretary.

6032 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Our next intervenor is J. Lyman Potts.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6033 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission. I might mention to Madam Chair I am having a little trouble with my video and my audio, and the video cannot be fixed. I will have to wait until December.

6034 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I could be in worse shape!

--- Laughter / Rires

6035 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: I will try not to overlap on my letter, which you already have, and deal with perhaps another phase of this particular situation.

6036 I appear before you today in support of the application by CHWO Ontario Inc. for the privilege of using the frequency of 740 kilohertz to better serve the area CHWO is currently licensed to serve, with clarity, consistency, without co-channel interference and, hopefully, to be able to broadcast its unique programming beyond its present parameters to melody-starved Ontario people who are literally "dying to hear it" and, without your blessing, will die without it.

--- Laughter / Rires

6037 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: In most Canadian provinces, certainly in Ontario, no radio station other than CHWO devotes its musical programming to the great popular music of the 20th Century. CHWO's programming is unique. It did not achieve this position by itself. As other stations forsook faithful listeners, CHWO kept on doing what it has been doing for years: Providing music that sounds familiar, is entertaining and tuneful, music that can offer comfort and inspiration, songs and melodies composed by gifted composers, pleasantly sung and played by popular performers -- over 30 per cent of them Canadians. In one sense, CHWO could be said to be "unique", simply because competing stations have made it so, but CHWO is unique in many ways.

6038 CHWO has told you that they are primarily looking after people over 50. But, as I stated in my letter to the Commission, even younger people should not be denied the opportunity of discovering and hearing the wealth of great music we have in this world, where the words were cleverly written by lyricists who ran the gamut of the Oxford Dictionary, and composers created immortal melodies that could be hummed, sung and whistled.

6039 I once worked for a radio station manager whose instructions were, "If you can't whistle it, don't play it."

6040 The trouble with a lot of songs one hears today is that they cannot be whistled. As composer Sammy Kahn said, "Somebody forgot to put them to music". But a radio listener who has empathy with a song, who can hum, whistle and sing along with it, is a happy listener. And "Happiness is (not) just a Thing Called Joe". There is actually a song called "I'm Humming, I'm Singing, I'm Whistling".

6041 One can never forget the Seven Dwarfs marching off in the morning, happily singing "Heigh-Ho, Heigh-Ho, It's Off to Work We Go", and segueing into "Whistle While You Work", or Deborah Kerr in "The King and I", as she solved a problem by singing "I Whistle a Happy Tune". In 1929, during the Great Depression, Irving Berlin got it right when he wrote, and Al Jolson sang, "Let Me Sing and I'll Be Happy".

6042 CHWO plays music you can sing, hum and whistle -- music that makes you happy.

6043 And it was in 1927 that Mr. Berlin put to music the truism "The Song Is Ended -- But The Melody Lingers On". Think of Elvis Presley's 1956 hit "Love Me Tender", based on George Poulton's 1861 song "Aura Lee", or Tony Martin's 1960 recording of "It's Now Or Never", adapted from de Capua's 1899 song "O Sole Mio", or "God Save The King", based on a melody composed in 1744 for the King of Denmark, adopted by Germany, England and the United States. In 1933, Ray Noble, who also wrote "Goodnight Sweetheart", adapted it for "Love Is The Sweetest Thing".

6044 The melody does linger on.

6045 CHWO is rending a wonderful service to people of all ages, regardless of race, colour or creed. The people who live within the range of the former coverage of CBL should have the opportunity to listen to CHWO without losing it at sundown or straining to hear it over the interference from co-channel foreign stations.

6046 In my case, my wife and I live about 15 miles from CHWO's transmitter. It is the only station on either the AM or FM dial that we can turn to and about 95 per cent of the time expect to hear the great music of the 20th Century. One would think that a 10 kw station 15 miles away should be coming in loud and clear. Well, it's okay daytime, but when the sun starts to go down -- and in wintertime that's around 4:45 -- the patterns change, and the signal loses strength. Foreign AM stations start to pound in, and gibberish begins. In driving the 10 miles to Hamilton, CHWO fades in and out and then is consumed by big-city electrical interference.

6047 One evening, about two years ago, in a desperate search for "something worth listening to", my wife, as she frequently did night after night, ranged over the AM dial and surprisingly found a "new" station near the top end at 1560. Its call letters: WQEW. It was owned by the New York Times. It was dedicated to playing the great standard music of North America. Even though we could get WQEW only after sundown, even though sometimes it faded in and out or an adjacent station encroached, when CHWO was carrying hockey or another talk program, and we wanted music, it was a Godsend.

6048 Thus, in the whole of the AM-FM spectrum, cluttered with hundreds of stations, we have the option of only two -- one Canadian, one American -- but even this has been lost to us.

6049 A year ago, The Disney Corporation acquired the facilities of WQEW from The Times. To our dismay, as has happened in Ottawa in recent years, the adult programming was abruptly wiped out. The Disney Corporation replaced it with something I can only describe as a "mickey-mouse operation".

--- Laughter / Rires

6050 MR. J. LYMAN POTTS: And I am a Mickey Mouse fan, I'll have you know, from way back.

6051 This has left us with only one station on which we, and thousands like us, can rely. When we want music, we can turn to CHWO -- or we can turn the radio off.

6052 As the Commission will recall, CHWO, among others, applied for 91.1 on the FM dial. The Commission decided in favour of the CBC and what is now known as "Radio One". That decision I understand.

6053 Later, a licensee that was assigned 92.5, only as recently as 1993, decided to sell the station, and it was taken over by a company that already had two licences in Toronto. One might have thought that the applicants that lost out to the CBC would have been given the opportunity to bid on the station and/or to apply for that licence, but that's not the way the system works. Those who have much are getting, and trying, for more.

6054 CHWO has been standing in line waiting for what now appears to be a "last chance" to improve its service and to provide radio programming to a larger audience of people whose preferences have been ignored and stand deprived. And, as the letters to CHWO must show, people are waiting for this to happen. Only you can make it happen.

6055 Thank you.

6056 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Potts. Thank you for your presentation.

6057 Mr. Secretary please.

6058 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

6059 We will now hear from the Humber School of Performing Arts.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6060 MR. LENNIE BOYD: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson and Members of the Committee. My name is Lennie Boyd. I am not Pat Ferbiac. She unfortunately is --

6061 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it was a "she" as well. You are doing well!

--- Laughter / Rires

6062 MR. LENNIE BOYD: Unfortunately, she is not able to attend today, so as a professor in the music department, I was asked to, as the saying goes, sub for her.

6063 I am here to speak in favour of CHWO's licence application.

6064 The Music Programme is a significant part of Humber's School of Performing Arts, and I would like to begin by saying a few words about that Programme.

6065 We have almost 300 full time music students in our Jazz and Commercial Music programme at any one time. Ours is a three-year post-secondary programme that prepares professional working musicians. Our students come from across the country, and indeed around the world. Our alumni, who number in the thousands, are well respected musicians who can be found throughout the music industry.

6066 We at Humber College School Of Performing Arts, and the Music Programme in particular, support CHWO's application for two reasons. The first is outlined in the letter of support submitted to you by Alastair Kay, who is a professor in the programme, the head of the brass department, the director of Humber's top Big Band and a professional working musician of considerable note.

6067 In his letter, Al wrote:

6068 I should add that, in addition to his other credentials, Al is a graduate from about 25 years ago of Humber College's Music programme.

6069 A second reason for our support of CHWO's application is that, as part of their commitment to the development of Canadian Talent, we at Humber College School of Performing Arts have been named as one of the beneficiaries. This will be very important to us in helping to offer an enriched learning experience for our students. Recent government cuts to post-secondary education have made it very difficult for us to provide much more than the basics to our students.

6070 We have an excellent curriculum, being delivered by people who are both exceptional musicians and teachers, but we no longer have the budget to provide many of the things that serve to enhance this curriculum. The money that is being identified by CHWO for Humber College will allow the Music Department to provide some of these enhancements.

6071 Two areas that are of particular interest to us are the purchase of much needed capital equipment and the ability to have visiting artists provide guest concerts and clinics. In a programme like ours, we continually need to replace smaller things -- like amplifiers, stereos, CD players, etc. --and occasionally we need to replace large pieces -- such as pianos an other instruments. We never have enough money for these things.

6072 With respect to visiting artists and clinicians, who bring exciting new ideas and perspectives to the students and significantly contribute to their learning and their artistic development, we would love to provide more of these experiences and opportunities to our students, and with CHWO's help we can.

6073 On behalf of my colleagues at Humber College in the Music Department, I would thank you for the opportunity to speak in favour of CHWO's application, and I thank them for identifying us as part of their contribution to the development of Canadian talent.

6074 Mrs. Ferbiac apologizes for the typo there. The last line, the third last word should be "of", not "fo". We are not doing a hip-hop here.

--- Laughter / Rires

6075 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Boyd, and do bring our best wishes to Ms Ferbiac.

6076 MR. LENNIE BOYD: I certainly will.

6077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary please.

6078 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Our next intervenor is CARP, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus.

6079 THE CHAIRPERSON: And no, you are not Ms Morgenthau!

--- Laughter / Rires

6080 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready, and do let us know who you are.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6081 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: Maybe at the end, after you have heard everything!

6082 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are keeping all your options open.

6083 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: That's right.

6084 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is even more exciting than Hip-Hop!

--- Laughter / Rires

6085 MR. BILL GLEBERZON: Actually, I have given it away in the presentation.

6086 My name is Bill Gleberzon, and I am the Associate Executive Director of CARP, Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus. Our president, Lillian Morgenthau, sends her regrets that she is unable to be with you this afternoon.

6087 I thought that before I spoke about our support in favour of CHWO, I would just like to tell you something about CARP.

6088 As I said, we are Canada's Association for the Fifty-Plus, the largest national association of mature Canadians in our country, representing nearly 400,000 members across Canada, with 233,000 members in Ontario and nearly 90,000 members in Toronto. Our members are 50 and older, retired or still working.

6089 We are a non-profit organization. CARP receives no operating funds from any level of government. Our mission is to express the concerns of mature Canadians and, indeed, of all Canadians, regardless of age.

6090 Our mandate is to provide practical recommendations for the issues we raise. We provide information of interest to 50-plus Canadians through our award-winning magazine, CARPNews/FIFTY-PLUS, and our Web site, www.fifty-plus.net. As well, members have access to a host of discounted savings, such as home and auto insurance, etc.

6091 CARP supports this application very strongly.

6092 We are very pleased to be here this afternoon in support of the application of CWHO Ontario for AM 740 Prime Time Radio to broadcast throughout the Greater Toronto Area and Southern Ontario. CARP has previously submitted written support of this application.

6093 The 50-plus population in Toronto numbers about 1.5 million people, representing one-third of the total population of this city. It is the fastest growing segment of Canada's population, and yet it does not have a radio station in Toronto that specifically caters to its needs, interests and concerns.

6094 Just to reiterate what I have said about the size of the population, over the next 30 years, over 10 million Canadians will be over 50, and of course a large percentage of those people live here in Toronto.

6095 Last year, 1999, was designated as the UN's International Year of the Older Person. Awareness about the senior segment of the population was raised, but now it is time to turn awareness into action by allowing the establishment of a radio station that focuses on that segment of that population and their lives.

6096 According to Section 3 of the Broadcast Act, which the CRTC is empowered to uphold, Canada's broadcast system is required to achieve a varied and comprehensive system which balances information and entertainment for people of all ages, cultures, interests and tastes. Yet, as I previously noted, there is no station specifically for the 50-plus in regard to the music, information and discussions that they want to hear -- in other words, their needs, interests and concerns. PrimeTime Radio will focus on this demographic and also provide them the opportunity to express opinions and concerns through specific information, call-in shows and the like.

6097 Research demonstrates that radio is a major source of information and entertainment for mature Canadians. In one study of the entertainment habits of 50-plus Canadians, over 90 per cent of respondents listed "listening to music" as their number one interest. And I can say from our personal experience that listening to the radio is the major form of listening to music and getting information for that demographic.

6098 Added value to this application, as you have just heard, is the commitment to develop Canadian talent among post-secondary music schools, which we very strongly support.

6099 On behalf of the mature segment of Toronto's population generally and our members in particular, CARP strongly recommends that the CRTC approves this application.

6100 Thank you very much.

6101 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gleberzon, and do bring our best wishes to Ms Morgenthau.

6102 Mr. Secretary please.

6103 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

6104 We will now hear an intervention by Diamond Entertainment Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6105 MR. JOHN DIAMOND: Good afternoon. I am John Diamond.

6106 Thank you for allowing me to appear before you this afternoon. I totally support CHWO and their application for a broadcast license for AM 740.

6107 My company, Diamond Entertainment Inc., produces approximately 50 music events per year. We publish a national magazine called "Big Band World", and we are soon to open Toronto's newest downtown showplace, The Stardust Dinner Theatre. Our target market for our activities is the same as CHWO's: the 50-plus market.

6108 This important group is a viable and growing market. And I am so sorry to use statistics, I am sure you are fed up with them, but according to Stats Canada, one babyboomer turns 50 every 7.5 seconds. So if we wait, we will get a whole bunch more. This will continue for the next 20 years. In respect to radio, I believe the 50-plus are underserved in the GTA area. Generally speaking, radio stations in Toronto, both all-news and music formats, tend to ignore the 50-plus, and the term "seniors" actually turns them off. Stations such as CHFI and CFRB are directing their efforts to lower their audience demographics.

6109 When I approached these stations to assist me in my events, they are totally not interested in Big Band music, or Frank Sinatra, for that matter, and it is not of the nature of what they are after. CHWO is the only station that listens to what I do and supports what I do.

6110 However, studies prove that society as a whole is re-examining its view of aging. The range of activities and interests for the 50-plus is broadening. Society in effect is "downaging", i.e., people as they are remaining active, productive and pursuing recreational activities once thought to be reserved for younger people.

6111 For 44 years, CHWO's track record on AM Radio 1250 has been exemplary. They have been dedicated to serving the aging market. The station has offered a wide range of programming appealing to the interests of a mature listening audience, not only in news, sports and information, but they have been particularly outstanding in respect to the arts and entertainment.

6112 One distinctive aspect of CHWO is the music that is played, from the big band sounds of the 40s to the pop hits of the 50s. They are the only station to offer the 50-plus a mix of the music of their times, which could range from Duke Ellington and Tommy Dorsey to Barbra Streisand and Céline Dion. There are no cacophonic sounds of Barenaked Ladies, Moist, or Hole, or Twisted Sisters, on this station. CHWO can be identified as the leading Big Band radio station in southern Ontario.

6113 CHWO's policy throughout the years has been to consistently encourage Canadian performing talent. Their airplay list regularly showcases the recorded music of local talent, including The Spitfire Band, the Modernaires out of London, Ontario, the Toronto Galaxy All-Star Band, The Stardust Big Band out of Southampton, the GTA Big Band, Mark Kenny with the Eddy Graff Orchestra, the 22-member Canadian tribute to Glenn Miller, the Endangered Species Big Band, and this country's ambassador's of Big Band jazz, the Boss Brass.

6114 Individual Canadian artists are also regularly featured and given a boost, anyone from Tommy Ambrose, Dick Maloney, Anne Murray, Oscar Peterson, Rick Sonata, Rick Stephenson, Anna Romain, John McDermott, The Kidd Sisters, Peter Appleyard, Matthew Arron Dusk, Rita McNeil, The Voices of Showtime. I particularly chose these performers because normally they will not be heard on CHFI or any other radio station other than CHWO. Matthew Arron Dusk is a 22-year-old performer. He is appearing on Monday at one of our shows. In the last two weeks he has received regular airplay on CHWO, and this has been a boost to his career. This is quite consistent with the type of programming that CHWO does.

6115 CHWO has generously sponsored local arts and cultural events, live concerts and festivals. Along with providing a forum for both recorded and live music, the station frequently provides valuable commercial and promotional time to artists and community event organizers. The station takes an active part in the arts community. Artists, producers and listeners have all benefited from their efforts.

6116 I can personally vouch that my company, and many other local entertainment companies like mine, have survived thanks to the broadcasting services provided by CHWO. More importantly, the musical arts in Toronto and the surrounding area have benefitted. With the support of CHWO, my company has been able to produce numerous upscale events at the Royal York Hotel, at Stagewest Dinner Theatre in Mississauga, the Canadian National Exhibition, the Ford Centre, 20 events in Toronto's historic Winter Garden Theatre, and others in Sarnia, Oakville, St. Catharine's and, yes, even our new Stardust Dinner Theatre will be made possible with the help of CHWO Radio. Our new endeavour will 25 musicians, dancers and vocalists for over two months, and will entertain a significant number of 50-plussers.

6117 Another example of CHWO's active participation in the local arts scene is their pledge to contribute financially to various performing arts organizations and to participate with our organization in establishing a high profile Toronto Big Band Festival, coming up shortly, probably this year. Big Band Music festivals have been successful in attracting large audience in U.S. cities and also in southern Ontario. Festivals such as the London Royal Canadian Big Band Music Festival, the Barrie Big Band Festival, the Canadian Dance Band Festival in Thornbury, its 9th, the annual Canadian Big Band celebration in Port Elgin, its 6th.

6118 In Toronto alone there are more than 4,000 professional musicians. Therefore, the Toronto Big Band Festival will be a two-day event held in a downtown Toronto venue, which will showcase at least four Big Bands and showcase upwards of 100 musicians in live performance.

6119 Next Monday, CHWO and Big Band World Magazine co-present their 7th annual Valentine's Day Big Band Lovers Ball in the Royal York Hotel. This music event features two orchestras and four vocalists in two ballrooms. The board is invited, as my guests, to attend in order to see what is achievable in respect to providing quality entertainment to a predominantly over-50-plus audience with the assistance of broadcast sponsors like CHWO.

6120 THE CHAIRPERSON: Many of us will qualify!

--- Laughter / Rires

6121 MR. JOHN DIAMOND: You will have a great time. Do you have a valentine? Then you qualify.

6122 I am sure it will come as no surprise that the attendees to this ball are living examples of "downagers", as they are healthy, active up-scale boomers and beyond, who either remember or are now just discovering the music of Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller.

6123 CHWO's programming philosophy has been successful in terms of audience appreciation and growth. They are the only radio station in Toronto and surrounding area offering a wide range of programming specifically directed to the mature listener. Readers of our magazine and attendees at our events are outspoken in their appreciation and support of CHWO and their programming.

6124 It goes without saying that there is also an economic need for a radio service directed to the 50-plus market. Companies like mine, and suppliers of products and services for a maturing citizen, badly need a broadcast-outlet in southern Ontario which is directed to and regularly attracts a faithful 50-plus audience. CHWO's Prime Time Radio proposal is directed at our target age group and is not confined by race, ethnic or religious exclusivity. CHWO's proposed service addresses the needs of an extremely large and growing and currently underserved segment of our community.

6125 CHWO Radio is more than qualified to meet the needs of the expanding 50-plus market. They have proven to be a reliable and conscientious, and deserve the opportunity to expand their service. The prime-time programming proposed in CHWO's application offers a diversification of service and responds to the relevant needs and tastes of a large segment of our society. As such, the CRTC would be justified in awarding CHWO Radio Limited the right to broadcast over 740 AM.

6126 Thank you.

6127 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Diamond.

6128 Mr. Secretary please.

6129 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

6130 We will now hear an intervention by Medipac International Inc.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6131 MR. DEREK MORRISON: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

6132 My name is Derek Morrison. I am Vice-President with Medipac International and standing in today for Mr. Ross Quigley, CEO, who has been unavoidably taken out of town because of illness in his family.

6133 From Mr. Quigley's text: As Chief Executive Officer of Medipac International, I feel it is my duty to express my support of CHWO's bid to broadcast from the vacant 740 AM frequency. Medipac International is one of Canada's leading suppliers of out-of-country travel insurance. As well, we are the administrators of the Canadian Snowbird Association and, as such, rely heavily on the senior snowbird market.

6134 CHWO has been one of our main communication vehicles for the past seven years. Our research indicates that it is the definitive voice of the 50-plus demographic in the Toronto area. As a frequent advertiser, we strongly rely on CHWO, and I have absolutely no doubt that moving to the new frequency will enhance our marketing efforts.

6135 Unlike other businesses, we cannot spread our advertising dollars over a number of different formatted stations. Ours is a niche, that is rapidly expanding, and yet it is one that is overlooked by every other radio station in the Greater Toronto area.

6136 The majority of Canadian Snowbird Association members are in the 50-plus demographic, the same demographic group that has put CHWO "on the map". To move to a stronger frequency would allow a greater number of our members to enjoy the kind of radio programming they have been searching for and, until now, just reading about in our CSA news magazine.

6137 The CSA is in the communication business and thus relies heavily on CHWO to reach our members in the Toronto area. Currently, we have approximately 100,000 members nation-wide, with 70 per cent living in southern Ontario. Moving to AM 740 would allow greater numbers of our membership to enjoy programmes like "Saturday Seniors", a show we have proudly sponsored for more than seven years, as well as being updated on a weekly basis as to CSA activities.

6138 Our annual membership drive is handled in two ways: our magazine and through CHWO. As a non-profit organization, we depend on the strength of our membership to continue preserving and protecting the rights of all Canadians, particularly the 50-plussers.

6139 With an increased radio signal, tens of thousands of Ontarians, who may not be aware of CSA's work, will have the opportunity to learn more about the association and perhaps come into the fold.

6140 The CSA started in 1922 because people believed that it was time for a change. What began as a political association has evolved into an organization that is the domestic leader in the preservation of the 50-plus lifestyle, but it is time to change yet again. We need a stronger, more powerful voice, and CHWO is the only radio station to target and speak to, and for, the 50-plus community, our community!

6141 At best, CHWO's early morning, evening and night signal is fraught with interference. At its worst, it is not there at all. CSA members listen to CHWO and they have told us they are not happy losing their most important link, "their station", at night.

6142 The 50-plus audience is one of the fastest growing demographics in this area. It is time to address this market with a strong clear signal, delivering concise programming dedicated to meeting its audiences' needs.

6143 Considering CHWO's record of excellence, it is the only real choice to accomplish this feat. It is our opinion that the 50-plus demographic has long been neglected. CHWO has made incredible inroads, but remaining at its current frequency is tantamount to tying their hands. Please allow CHWO to continue its course -- Canadian radio will be the better for it.

6144 Currently, CHWO is the only radio station in the Golden Horseshoe servicing this vital market. While programmers skew towards the prime 25-54 audience, studies show conclusively that it is the "boomers" who are now in the enviable position of having discretionary income. This affluent market is serviced by just one Toronto area radio station, CHWO, and, unfortunately, this station has a signal far too weak to truly reach its audience potential.

6145 This directly impacts Medipac International, as we are year-round advertisers on the station and the fact that a good majority of our target audience is not receiving our message is worrisome.

6146 CHWO's technical limitations severally restrict our means of communication, as many tens of thousands of Torontonians are not hearing our message.

6147 Should CHWO receive your permission to broadcast from the AM 740 frequency, they will then be able to reach the more than 1.2 million people over the age of 50 in the Toronto area alone. The potential to reach hundreds of thousands more across southern Ontario presents an unparalleled opportunity for both CHWO programming and its advertisers.

6148 Thank you.

6149 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Morrison. And do bring our wishes to Mr. Quigley.

6150 Mr. Secretary please.

6151 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

6152 The next intervention, Great Canadian, Mr. Hunt.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6153 MR. LARRY HUNT: Madam Chair, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.

6154 My name is Larry Hunt. I represent a company called Great Canadian Coaches and Holidays, which I co-own with my wife, Lorna.

6155 First of all, I would like to tell you a little bit about our company and a background of what we do.

6156 I started in the transportation business, with seniors, back in 1972, realizing that there was a need to develop tour product and travel programs for seniors clubs and centres across southern Ontario.

6157 Over that period since then, I have been extremely successful in developing a very large following of seniors clubs and centres, being a leader in our industry and an innovator in our industry. Some of the things we have done, we have actually programmed entertainment and show programs in a variety of things for seniors.

6158 We move close to 30,000 people a year on our coaches and our tours. A good percentage, probably about 80 per cent, of those people are the 50-plus age group.

6159 We have very beautiful motor coaches that we transport our seniors on, and these coaches are all dedicated to Canada on different themes, which an artist paints these beautiful scenes on the coach.

6160 I would like to commend the CRTC. To help promote (off microphone) and number this coach 1968. It is in our garage being painted as we speak. This coach is entitled: Canada -- Something to Sing About. We are going to be commemorating about 40 of our Canadian artists from coast to coast.

6161 It was a tough decision, and certainly that legislation has helped very much the growth of our industry. My wife, doing the research, felt that there was possibly over 200 candidates that we could have put on this motorcoach. So, a job well done, CRTC. I could not pass that opportunity up. I am going to get you later, though.

6162 We have a very loyal following of seniors clubs, that I mentioned earlier. The market that we serve stretches from the London to Oshawa. We are just in the process of expanding our area to include the Windsor area.

6163 It is easy, because of that geography that I just mentioned, to understand why we are here in support of this application.

6164 We are always in search of good corporate partners and allies to get our message to that senior market. We know that CHWO Radio also is very creative and innovative in their approach, and they really do have the senior market, and are very interested in that senior market, just as we are.

6165 The other reason I am here is really to support some of the many clients that we have, and hopefully for their listening pleasure we are going to have a successful application here.

6166 I am going to take you back to a problem that our community -- I am from Kitchener -- experienced back in 1993, when CHUM Radio took over CFCA. It was less than a year, and they changed their format to COOL FM rock format, that certainly got people very, very excited.

6167 I did a little research, because I remember the controversy very well, as maybe possibly some of you people may recall the controversy as well. I spent a good deal of time in the Library, because I was in search of a particular comment that was made by the editor of our paper.

6168 In going through the papers, I found a time period there stretching from August 22nd to September 19th. There were 17 days that I found letters to the editor. There were two letters, on average, in those 17 days. Unfortunately, in my research, I did not realize that the change had actually taken place about ten days earlier. So I do not have letters to the editor during that period, but I do have some of the controversy here documented as it was shown in our newspaper.

6169 Ladies and gentlemen, there was complete outrage over that decision. One citizen, a city planner from the City of Kitchener, stood outside of one of our theatres one night after a performance and collected 870 signatures to a petition.

6170 I know that we have supported this applicant by distributing some petitions, that you may have had a chance to see. We put those on some of our motor coaches during the rather slow period around the Christmas season. I wish we had more time, because we would fill baskets and baskets of petitions, because I really strongly feel that this market needs the opportunity to get the programming they once had.

6171 What I was really looking for when I went to the Library to do this research was a letter that the editor wrote. The editor made a comment, I guess in frustration after seeing such a deluge of letters, that he said, and I remember this, I have never seen this in the history of the paper and I have been reading the paper since I was about 10 years old.

6172 The editor made a comment he had never seen such a lot of comments about this issue. He had never seen so many letters to the editor about the change in format for this radio station, and that he was going to have to, after seeing all of these letters, finally put a stop to it and say that the issue had finally been aired and that he would not print any more.

6173 I think that certainly with the change in that particular station we lost a close ally in the senior market. There is no doubt that we have every type of rock and easy listening station imaginable, but there really is not the opportunity for us to get our message out to the senior market.

6174 Maybe a lot of us are not of the age where we are listening to that music, but I think that we all have parents that very much enjoy that music, and I think we have to think of them, because I think they have a right to listen to that type of programming.

6175 I believe that there is a huge market there that we can't ignore, and I know that there are some small radio stations throughout this market area, but it is a very piecemeal approach. Outside of the Toronto area, I know that there has been a lot of talk about the need in the Toronto area. There is a huge need outside of those areas as well.

6176 What I like about the application is that it not only is covering much of southern Ontario, it even taps into some of that rather large market on the others side of the border, and some of those American dollars that we all would certainly love to have.

6177 Thank you for listening. I hope that you give it careful consideration, because I strongly feel that there is a need.

6178 Thank you.

6179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Hunt.

6180 Mr. Secretary please.

6181 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Madam Chairperson, we will now hear an intervention by Mr. Russ Little.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6182 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Russ Little, and I am appearing before you today as an intervenor on behalf of CHWO 740 Prime Time Radio.

6183 It would probably be helpful to mention, at this juncture, that I have neither a business nor a personal relationship with these applicants. However, I have resided in the Town of Oakville as a corporate neighbour and listener to CHWO for more than 27 years and, moreover, my professional career has been more or less equally divided between business investment and the arts.

6184 I do realize that this particular blend of careers is not all that unusual nowadays, but the juxtaposition does lend me some degree of perspective and insight into a few of the questions before the Commission.

6185 Briefly, I have had more than 40 years of successful experience as both an investor/business person and as a full-time, practising professional studio-musician/musical director. This constitutes, I believe, an unusual blend of experiences and provides me with a particularly useful and well-informed background against which I can offer my honest assessment of the applicant's track record and potential.

6186 No doubt the CRTC has its own criteria and standards. However, as a layperson, the three most important issues that I can address are: Demographic need, business viability, and artistic mission or commitment. I hope you will permit me to examine these issues in the context of my own personal experiences.

6187 First, demographic need. No doubt by now you have been showered with statistics and numbers which have, I am certain, indicated the impressive size of the group that the applicants intend to serve, together with the fact that this particular group is the fastest growing demographic cohort of any significant size in the southern Ontario region, but I would like to go a little beyond that, if I may.

6188 Very few people are aware of the heartfelt dedication and love for the music of their era that is felt by this age group. Oakville, the town where I live and in which the CHWO group is based, is filled with special interest clubs, amateur dance groups, record exchanges and informal information groups, all of which serve as rallying points for the many extremely avid enthusiasts for the music which serves as a touchstone in these people's lives.

6189 In all of my years playing, and enjoying, every possible kind of music, from classical, country or classic rock -- incidentally, I am an original and founding member of "Lighthouse" -- all the way over to jazz and swing -- I am a former lead trombone player of the Woody Herman Orchestra -- I have never found anything remotely resembling the importance that this particular age group places on the music of their era.

6190 Put another way, in my personal experience, the people that the Prime Time Radio group seek to serve, the key group, the over-50s, seem to feel a more powerful emotional bond to their particular music -- the music, if you will, of their "salad days" -- than any other age group that I have encountered in my entire musical carer.

6191 It would be unfortunate indeed to deny them the opportunity to hear their personal music in a larger forum. Their music has, I feel, a stronger emotional and nostalgic resonance in these listeners' lives than that of any other underserved segment of the broadcast audience.

6192 Leaving my text for a moment, I should just mention to you that I have two children, aged 19 and 17, and both of them, to my surprise, although perhaps if I examine it, not such a surprise, listen quite a lot to this kind of music. It really is extremely valid, and these days contemporary music, which I indulge in to a considerable extent myself, seems to have washed aside everything else. But there is real, real musical value there.

6193 Second, business viability. Obviously, a radio station that does not have all the benefit of experienced, proven and dedicated management, will not stay in business for long, no matter how lofty its vision of community or special group service may be. And a failure caused by unproven or untested management obviously reflects badly on the entire process. The long and successful record of this team makes the above outcome very remote indeed.

6194 My past experience tells me that when you have a proven management team, such as this, led by a well-motivated and well-capitalized owner/operator, such as this, with years of profitable experience behind them, such as this, working within a broadly-appealing and successful format, such as this, well, then you have a prescription for a viable and successful broadcast entity.

6195 Third, artistic mission. It has been said that "it is a poor salesman who doesn't believe in his product", but unfortunately too many of those in the broadcast industry today have, in my view, no compelling sense of mission or zeal for their most important product: their format.

6196 Now, I am well aware that the term "artistic mission" can sound very naive in light of the business realities which face any competitive enterprise in this new millennium, however I strongly believe that just such a seemingly "naive" sense of mission is often very sadly lacking these days.

6197 Business is, of course, in essence about making a buck and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, however most Canadians feel, with strong justification, I believe, that the operators to whom these frequencies are entrusted need to be held to a somewhat higher standard inasmuch as they are being allowed access to a limited resource and, in holding that resource, they are in a position to wield great power as moulders and arbiters of public opinion and public taste.

6198 The people who make the decisions at CHWO have, in my frequent personal experience, a good knowledge of and love for the kind of music and commentary that their underserved demographic demands. Incidentally, in this regard I recently discovered, quite by accident, that the president of CHWO, Michael Cain, has spent considerable time in his youth studying music at a high professional level.

6199 In no other area of the business of broadcasting have I consistently and regularly found a company president, his general manager and, on occasion their families, in attendance at big band concerts, jazz concerts, shows and presentations of all kinds, all of these events clearly aspects of the type of music and general interests that not only they love, but which is demanded by the demographic group and customer base which is primarily to be served by CHWO 740.

6200 In summary, based on their past conduct and actions, my experience of the CHWO Prime Time Radio Group has been, and continues to be, entirely positive. In every significant forum on which my professional experience permits me to comment, they have earned high marks.

6201 In terms of previous business success and management experience, in terms of ongoing commitment to serve their target audience and marketplace, in terms of true, personal commitment to the music espoused by their mandate, indeed by every single criteria that my professional experience enables me to judge, the CHWO 740 Prime Time Radio team comes up a winner.

6202 Thank you very much.

6203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Little.

6204 Mr. Little, Commissioner Williams has a question for you.

6205 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are not generally asking questions because of time constraints, but today in our schedule we have a little bit of extra time, so we were just curious as to whether the music of Lighthouse, as far as you know, is played on CHWO.

6206 MR. RUSS LITTLE: As far as I know, the music of Lighthouse is not played there. So I have no ulterior motive.

--- Laughter / Rires

6207 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

6208 MR. RUSS LITTLE: That of course is what you were seeking to ascertain.

6209 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, no. I was just wondering where we could hear your music. Thank you.

6210 MR. RUSS LITTLE: On one of those Pop stations downtown!

--- Laughter / Rires

6211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Little. I hope you enjoyed our constitutional question.

6212 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Indeed I did. Indeed I did.

--- Laughter / Rires

6213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6214 MR. RUSS LITTLE: Thank you.

6215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary please.

6216 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

6217 We now have an intervention from Mr. Daniel Woods.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

MR. DANIEL WOODS: Madam Chairperson -- I will correct my typing -- Members of the Commission. Thank you for this opportunity to address this hearing to determine the future of AM 740.

6218 My name is Dan Woods, and this is my first appearance at a formal CRTC hearing, so I apologize for my nervousness. In fact, I have never even been to traffic court! Well, I went once but the cop didn't show up, so I didn't have to pay the ticket or speak.

6219 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Woods, you can relax! And do not speak too quickly.

--- Laughter / Rires

6220 MR. DANIEL WOODS: I have read this speech three or four times, a couple of times under 10, a couple of times over, so I am a little nervous as to whether I will make it.

6221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't worry about it. Worry about the poor court reporter!

--- Laughter / Rires

6222 MR. DANIEL WOODS: It is a pleasure to be here, and I really do feel compelled to appear here today to speak on behalf of the CHWO application, because I generally consider it to be an outstanding use of the AM 740 signal.

6223 It was suggested that I start by telling you a little about myself. I am a third generation Torontonian. I now live with my wife and children in Oakville. My parents continue to live in the home that my mother's father built when he first arrived in Canada, just a short walk south of this hotel. I attended Humber College in Toronto, and I majored in Theatre Arts.

6224 During my working career, I have had the pleasure of working as an actor, an on-air broadcaster, and a radio sales exec. I suppose that my greatest success so far as an actor would have to have been as a regular cast member in the Degrassi television series for over five years. Recently, I have stepped up to become a principal owner and a performer in two independent television series now showing throughout the U.S. and Canada.

6225 Throughout my years as an actor I worked on-air for a number of radio stations in this area. You might say that working in radio was my way of driving a cab. I originally started out as an on-air personality in Oakville on CHWO and its sister station, CJMR, owned by the applicant that I am endorsing here today. I have worked at stations in Hamilton, Oshawa, and even had the pleasure of hosting a nationally syndicated radio program that aired live on over 20 stations, from Cornerbrook to Yellowknife.

6226 When the Degrassi series ended, I worked for over five years as a sales representative for two stations under three different owners. I sold advertising and remote broadcast events for CHWO, Redmond Broadcasting, and finally Telemedia in Toronto.

6227 As you may have noticed, I am not over 50, not like the oldtimers like Paul McCartney and Mic Jagger.

--- Laughter / Rires

6228 MR. DANIEL WOODS: I don't sell anything to the 50-plus market, and I have no music that will be played on that station. So why would I support a station that is targeting a mature audience? I clearly do not fall into the "target demographic" of CHWO's format. However I am a regular listener, and I have been since working for that station back in 1985. I cannot say as much for other stations I have worked for.

6229 I am a forty-year-old husband with two wonderful children, a daughter age 8 and a son age 5. And we are all fans of the station. During one of my recent employment contracts I was required to move my family to Don Mills in Toronto's east end for one year. One of the worst aspects of my time on that side of the city was that I could not receive CHWO on my radio after sunset, which is a substantial period of time, especially during the winter as it meant that all my travel to and from work was affected daily. The CHWO signal was so poor that I received better reception from New York City's nostalgia station, WQEW.

6230 I imagine that you have heard the phrase "the sounds or music of a generation", which unfortunately implies that an age group owns a style of music. This couldn't be further from the truth! A specific generation may have been the first exposed to a style of music, but no one has title to it except that artist, and even that artist has given their music to anyone that wants to enjoy it.

6231 I am pleased to say that at the age of 8, my daughter Allison loves music by artists like Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, and Cab Calloway. I am also pleased to say that as a result of listening to CHWO, my daughter is very aware that jazz great Louis Prima is not a singing Orangutan, a he is portrayed by Disney in the movie "The Jungle Book". She knows this in part because I try to expose my children to as much music variety as possible both at home and in the car, where she often hears CHWO. She has heard other music by Louis Prima.

6232 Another positive aspect to a station that plays a nostalgia format is that you hear music from great musicals and "Standards" as an intricate part of their format, a perfect complement to Toronto's live theatre scene. Toronto has the second largest number of live theatres in North America, and we have the third largest live theatre industry in the English speaking world. Unfortunately, no commercial stations in Toronto choose to highlight that unique aspect of our city in part, I believe, because of the strong influence of radio consultants on the Toronto market, and the broadcasters, and that our theatre status has escaped their notice, which is quite understandable. Consultants are very busy people who program stations all over the continent from their offices in LA or New York, and probably consider Toronto just another large North American city. After all, we do have a professional baseball team in the American League!

6233 If I sound a little bit cynical, it's because I am. This is a great city, with a diverse and vibrant culture that needs to be integrated and exposed to all its citizens, not hidden or bottled up on its own frequency under the guise of ethnic programming; that is isolationism, not diversification.

6234 Peter Ustinov was quoted as saying: "Toronto is another New York... if New York could be run by the Swiss!"

6235 This city needs a full range of broadcasters that expound its virtues and heritage through its music. Instead, it is becoming homogenous. For example, I know that Toronto did have music before 1955, but that music does not apply to Toronto's only Oldies rock station format. More and more music stations have become Rock -- Soft Rock, Easy Rock, Lite Rock, or Classic Rock. They have used American spelling for "Lite" and called the last letter of the alphabet "Zee", as in Z97.3, where I did work.

6236 Recently, the Toronto produced Broadway bound musical "Showboat" was playing to sell-out audiences at the Ford Centre. Sadly, no Toronto station added any of the music from the play to their regular play list, including stations that were sponsoring it. "Phantom of the Opera", "Cats" and "Les Misérables" are just a few of the Canadian cast recordings that do not make it to the airwaves in this city. The list of musicals that sell out night after night in Toronto is extensive. Unfortunately, the list of radio stations that will not play their music is just as long!

6237 I know that, without exception, almost every applicant that comes before these committees promises to provide diversity and uniqueness to Toronto radio. Regrettably, they return here at what often seems like their first opportunity to cry poor so they can request a format change or, worse, a reduction in Canadian content, solely for the purpose of increasing the broadcaster's profitability. The result is that Toronto is given a homogenous sound.

6238 So I am encouraged and eager to come before this committee to endorse an applicant who, I believe, with their proposed format has already survived for many years on the perimeter of the Toronto market and is essentially asking only to have a signal increase. CHWO is clearly asking to provide the community with a format that has already proved its diversity, popularity and profitability. Best of all, they already have Toronto listeners, who often go to extremes to tune in the signal.

6239 When you consider the recent history of applicants who have come before these committees and the licenses which have been granted for new stations since the mid-80s, only one has clearly maintained its original proposal, specifically, CFMX, who as a regional broadcaster with a small Toronto audience, proposed a format already in use on Toronto's eastern perimeter. And while I was not fully in favour of a 24-hour classical station at the time, I tip my hat to the station's management for maintaining its integrity.

6240 Unfortunately, other broadcasters have made proposals that were less than successful in this market. In the mid-80s, Redmond Broadcasting promised a new "soft and light" easy listening station for Toronto. At the time, it was presented as what was truly needed in Toronto. By the early 90s, that station had changed to incorporate the term "Rock" as part of its image. Today, that original applicant has sold the station and the licence for millions of dollars, and the station now competes with a near identical sound to CHFL.

6241 In the mid-80s, the Commission issued a Country FM licence to Rawlco Broadcasting, under the call letters KISS FM. The entry of that new broadcaster into this market had, and continues to have, a dramatic effect on Toronto radio.

6242 The Country AM broadcaster that existed at the time abandoned the format, unable to compete with the sound quality of the new FM station. Even the Country station in Hamilton was affected, losing staff and listeners to the new FM station.

6243 It is ironic, then, that after only a few years there is no longer a Country station on AM or FM in Toronto, and that again the original broadcaster who acquired the license has sold their interest, for substantial sums, to a large communications company.

6244 That new station today is playing Urban Dance, a format that is competing against two other perimeter broadcasters who, according to my sources, are now also struggling financially, in part due to direct competition from the new Toronto based signal. I find it sad to think that in the case of both of these licenses existing perimeter broadcasters were here applying for the frequency to improve their position on the dial.

6245 At any given time in Toronto there are existing radio stations struggling for audiences, revenues, or both. I am sure that as members of this committee you have heard every one of their sad financial stories during their licence renewals. Clearly, it should be these struggling stations that experiment with bringing in new formats to Toronto.

6246 I have no doubt that some executive at one of these struggling stations is currently looking at the formats being proposed at this hearing, and will recommend implementing one or more back at their station. And why not? The proposals presented here are all researched extensively and are most likely implemented with some degree of success elsewhere in the U.S. or Canada.

6247 Please understand that I am not here to be a Monday morning quarterback, or to overstate the obvious. I refer to these two failed licenses to highlight the most recent successes.

6248 These successes have provided Torontonians with what was promised by the broadcaster. And the broadcaster has been rewarded for staying on the fringe in this region. When this Commission has provided the means for those broadcasters to improve, we have all benefited. The recent move of the CBC is a perfect example of a broadcaster who is improving radio that is currently being offered, rather than bringing in a new format.

6249 Toronto's demand for a mature or nostalgia format is clearly strong and has been for a number of years. CHWO already has a base audience and established advertising revenue in the west end of the GTA. Currently, it is successfully slicing into this market from the perimeter. I see no reason why CHWO would not be successful at entertaining more people further to the east, west and north, in every age demographic, on 740 AM, and at the same time keep their application promise to this community.

6250 Finally, while this committee fairly contemplates all of the applications for the AM 740 signal, consider that the over-50 population is growing faster than any other segment in Canada. They need a voice of their own in this city, and you have very few opportunities left to provide it to them.

6251 I thank you again for the time and consideration you have given me. If you choose, it would be my pleasure to answer any questions or respond to any comments you may have.

6252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Woods, for your thoughtful presentation.

6253 Mr. Secretary please.

6254 MR. PETER CUSSONS: We will now hear the intervention by Ms Anna Romain.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

6255 MS ANNA ROMAIN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

6256 My name is Anna Romain. I am an artist. I am a singer, a jazz singer, Big Band singer. I am here to support the application of CHWO for Prime Time Radio.

6257 I did not write anything, I did not want to prepare anything. I wanted to just speak to you the way I feel.

6258 This morning I was looking at the television, and they were giving horoscopes. My horoscope today said that "you are able to influence people and their decisions", so I thought, well, I will not write anything, I will just state how I feel.

6259 In 1995, it was my great pleasure to be introduced to Mr. Michael Cain. I didn't know Michael Cain, and Michael Cain didn't know me. I lived in Oakville for a number of years, and I had a day job.

6260 I went to Michael Cain and I said, "I am a singer, and I would like to do a concert, and I would like you to sponsor it". And he said, "Well, why should I?", and I said, "Well, because I am a singer". And he said, "Well, who is backing you up?" And I said, "Well, look at the list of musicians that are going to be my backup musicians". And one of those musicians was here this afternoon, Mr. Russ Little. When Michael Cain saw the name Russ Little, people like Gord Evans, Rick Wilkins, and Norman Amadeo, to name a few, he said, "Well, I don't know who you are, but I know who they are. So you must be in very good company".

6261 So I said, "Does that mean that you will sponsor my show?" And he said, "We will give it a try". And he did. From that moment on, Michael Cain, CHWO and the family of CHWO have been wonderful to me as an artist.

6262 That station, they walk the walk, they talk the talk. They are committed and dedicated to the advancement and the support of Canadian artists, artists such as myself, who would never have the opportunity to be heard on radio by any of the Toronto radio stations, artists such as myself who are able to make a telephone call and ask the station manager to give them a phone call and he will call them back, and not an artist who calls a station and only gets as far as the receptionist at the desk and you don't get a return phone call.

6263 This station is committed to, as I said, Canadian talent, and they are open to suggestions and ideas that young artists, and new artists, have to offer. As I said, over the years Michael Cain -- and I keep saying "Michael Cain" because I can't separate the two. I am being really personal, and that is the only way I can be, so that you can understand the importance of what I am going to say next.

6264 Because of this station and because of Mr. Cain, he has given me courage and -- what's the word I am looking for -- confidence to do something very drastic in my life and, as he puts it, "at this time in your life". I don't know what he means by that. But I quit my day job in December, to pursue this career that I have wanted to pursue for the past 20 years.

6265 I have been singing for the past 20 years, but only the people that tune in and that are able to hear and listen to CHWO know who Anna Romain is. And that's okay because, as I said, I have had the courage to quit my day job, which I have done, and by so doing, the confidence that I now have within myself as an artist to pursue my career comes from the fact that I know that if I need help, if I need sponsorship, I can call on a station such as CHWO, and I can refer to other stations in Toronto, if I may add, such as CJRT FM, which is the Ryerson station, and say, "Look at what CHWO has done for me as an artist over the years", and not just me but also other artists that live in the city. And that is beginning to happen.

6266 So to you, Members of the CRTC, it is very important to listeners, it is very important to artists, that we have a station that is committed and dedicated to Canadian talent. That is one aspect I wanted to speak on.

6267 The second thing I would like to say is, in my day job I provided service for seniors. I provided a volunteer transportation program for seniors. What that meant was that I visited a lot of seniors in their homes, and all the seniors that I visited in their homes, in the region of Alton, over the past ten years, 99 per cent of the seniors who have radios listen to CJRT FM. They smile when they hear their favourite songs. They smile and they say how happy they are that they can hear and listen to something that is so familiar to them. That is important for well-being, it is important for health.

6268 Even seniors that are ill and people who are terminal or in palliative care, when you go into their homes, the radio station that is on is CHWO.

6269 I implore you, I ask you, to please listen to and pay attention to this group. They need this station. I need this station. We all need the station.

6270 Thank you.

6271 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Romain.

6272 Thank you to all participants. This will complete our day. I will give you a bird's eye view of the week, in the hope that this will help you plan.

6273 Tomorrow we will hear the intervenors to the Gary Farmer application. We will not hear the intervenor to Durham until later, because there is a personal problem that prevents the intervenor from appearing in the chronology, as suggested.

6274 We will then hear, again on Tuesday, the intervenors to CKMW, et l'intervenant à la Coopérative de Toronto, and the intervenors to the McNabb application. Although the agenda is not showing that, there are three intervenors to the McNabb application.

6275 We will begin, on Wednesday morning, with the intervenors to the Jolly application, followed by the intervenors to the Auguste application, and to the Infinity application.

6276 On Thursday morning, we will hear the intervenors to the CHIN application, and after lunch we will hear all the applicants in reply, which will leave Friday for the Dufferin Communications application, and intervenors thereto.

6277 Hopefully we can pursue in accordance with this agenda. You can pass the good word, if you can, to your friends, it not, to your opponents!

6278 Thank you, and have a good evening.

6279 This will complete our day. Nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 heures.

--- L'audience est ajournée à 1545, pour reprendre

le mardi 8 février 2000 à 0900 / Whereupon

the hearing adjourned at 1545, to resume

on Tuesday, February 8, 2000, at 0900