ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Toronto, ON - 2000/02/04

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/

DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 4, 2000 le 4 février 2000

Volume 5

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente

M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère

J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller

R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller

C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 4, 2000 le 4 février 2000

Volume 5

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR

914258 Ontario Limited 950

Questions by the Commission 967

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR

Radio 1540 1003

Questions by the Commission 1018

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Friday, February 4, 2000

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le vendredi

4 février à 0900

4627 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. Good morning.

4628 Mr. Secretary.

4629 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Good morning everyone.

4630 We will now hear an application by 914258 Ontario Limited on behalf of a company to be incorporated for a broadcasting licence to carry on an ethnic AM radio programming undertaking at Toronto. The new station would operate on frequencies 740 KHz with a transmitter power of 50,000 watts. The applicant is proposing an ethnic programming service. By condition of licence, the applicant will direct programming to a minimum of 22 cultural groups and a minimum of 23 different languages each week.

4631 The Commission notes that this application is technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing for the use of the 740 KHz frequency.

4632 We have Mr. Ray and his colleagues.

4633 Mr. Ray.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4634 MR. NEETI RAY: Thank you.

4635 Madam Chair, before I start the formal presentation and qualifications, I would like to take this opportunity and introduce Infinity's panel to you.

4636 Well, first of all, my name is Neeti Prakesh Ray and I am President of Infinity Broadcasting. Sitting on my right is Infinity's broadcast consultant, Mr. James Robson. And sitting on his right is Hans Jansen, partner in the consulting group, and Infinity's marketing consultant. On my left is Vice-president of Infinity, my partner in Infinity, and also my wife, Renu. Sitting on her left is Radhika Ray. She represents the next generation of broadcasters.

4637 Sitting behind me starting on this side is Mohamed Farah who is representing the Canadian Somali Society. Next to Mohamed is Ada Wynston who is a Dutch language broadcaster; and she is also a member of the board of directors of Infinity broadcasting. Sitting next to Ada is Ashok Kalle. Ashok is the President of Pathway Communications and also a member of the board of directors of Infinity. Sitting next to Ashok on that side is Wisdom Nyamasekpr and he represents the Ghana community.

4638 Sitting on that table, starting from that end, is Dr. Paul Magocsi who holds the Chair of Ukrainian Studies at the University of Toronto. He is also the Editor-in-chief of this magnificent book, the encyclopedia of Canada's peoples -- some people have called it the "Bible of Canada's Multiculturalism." Sitting next to Dr. Magocsi is Dr. Rashesh Thakkar who is Director of South Asian Studies at York University. Sitting next to Dr. Thakkar is Jay Chauhan who is our legal counsel. And sitting next to Jay is Chandar Sudan who is our chartered accountant.

4639 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, our appearance before you today seeking approval of establishing a new ethnic radio station on 740 AM represents the culmination of a broadcasting mission that our company embarked upon ten years ago.

4640 Our goal has always been to create a radio station that meaningfully addresses and reflects the reality of Toronto's ethnicity and the needs of its diverse multicultural community by giving them a voice.

4641 Hence, if licensed, Infinity will optimize the utilization of the 740 AM frequency in reaching out to serve 22 unserved and largely underserved multicultural communities in 23 different languages within the Greater Toronto/Southern Ontario Region.

4642 Infinity's response to the Commission's call is to provide high-quality local/regionally relevant programming services to nine unserved multicultural communities, including Armenian, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Ghanaian, Hebrew, Latvian, Maltese, and Slovak; and to significantly enhance the level of quality and diversity of local programming services to 13 largely underserved cultural communities including Arab, Dutch, Filipino, German, Hungarian, Jamaican, Japanese, Persian, Romanian, Russian, Somali, South Asian, and Ukrainian.

4643 We also have extended an opportunity to First Nations peoples to participate fully with Infinity's 22 member broadcast family.

4644 In utilizing 740 AM to its full service potential, Infinity will extend its programming diversity to parallel third-language communities within the Hamilton, St. Catharines/Niagara, Kitchener, London, and Oshawa areas.

4645 These unserved communities represent -- that is, in those areas -- an additional audience in excess of 500,000 ethnic listeners who, for the time, will be kept abreast of news, actives, and events from their respective sister communities in the Greater Toronto Area by in turn reflecting their own community driven news, activities, and events back to their parallel sister communities in Greater Toronto via a stringer correspondents network that Infinity will establish.

4646 The infusion of Infinity's high quality programming into these 22 targeted multicultural communities will add significant new elements of diversity and listening choice to Greater Toronto's ethnic radio spectrum. This is important to ethnic listening audiences who, unlike their mainstream English language counterparts, do not have access to multiple listening choices in their preferred language.

4647 We would also underline the fact that Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan, if approved, will help to better rationalize and improve on the balance of ethnic broadcasting services within the Greater Toronto Region by narrowing the service disparity gap that currently exists between the very well served, long-established multicultural communities and the those who are largely underserved or who have no service at all.

4648 The implementation of Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan also represents an important step forward in addressing the huge imbalance that exists between mainstream English language radio services and third language radio services within Greater Toronto. Such an imbalance clearly does not reflect the dominant reality of Toronto's ethnicity. What it does graphically illustrate, however, is the need for additional comprehensive services for the multicultural communities of Greater Toronto.

4649 Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan for 740 AM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. And from our perspective, it represents the most comprehensive and productive utilization of the 740 AM frequency.

4650 MS RENU RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, Toronto's radio industry both English and third language sectors is vibrant, healthy, growing, and facing new market demands, several of which were previewed here this week before the Commission.

4651 Turning specifically to the third language component of the market, Toronto's ethnic population has grown by more than 200,000 since 1996 and continues to expand at the rate of over 70,000 immigrants per year.

4652 Added to that, is the fact that local and national air time revenues of Toronto's existing ethnic broadcasters have increased by over 22 per cent between 1994 and 1998 going from $9.7 million to $11.8 million. It is projected that by 2001, the combined local/national air time sales will reach nearly $14 million, for an overall seven year increase of some 43.8 per cent.

4653 Against that otherwise positive picture in terms of ongoing population and revenue growth, however, is the reality that many third language communities within Greater Toronto remain either unserved or largely underserved. Some of these communities have larger populations than many cities and urban centres across Canada.

4654 For example, the South Asian population, which today is estimated at 500,000, is one-and-a half times as larger than in Windsor, Ontario or Victoria, British Columbia.

4655 MR. JAMES ROBSON: Madam Chair, in defining the unfulfilled needs of those unserved and underserved third language communities within Greater Toronto, it is important to consider some of the underlying elements of change that have a direct bearing on the existing service voids within the ethnic market place.

4656 In a study conducted for Toronto's Access and Equity Centre, Toronto is described as the "most ethnically diverse city in the world." The study goes on to state that "by the year 2000, visible minorities will make up 54 per cent population of Metropolitan Toronto....up from 30 per cent in 1991....and only 3 per cent in 1961."

4657 Of the visible minority population in Metropolitan Toronto, which is now the majority, 25 per cent are Chinese; 25 per cent are South Asian; 20 per cent are Black; and 30 per cent are described as Other.

4658 Madam Chair and Commissioners, the evolution of Toronto's remarkable multicultural development in a single generation has resulted in an almost exclusively White city becoming the most ethnically diverse city in the world. This evolution has occurred across two distinct immigration eras.

4659 The first wave of largely European immigrants settled in Toronto over the past several decades and essentially formed the multicultural base of Greater Toronto's ethnicity.

4660 More recently, immigration patterns have largely moved away from their traditional sources, resulting in a second immigration era in which the flow of immigrants is predominantly from South and East Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe.

4661 Toronto's existing ethnic stations have done a very good job in serving the needs of the now well established mainstream multicultural communities. This is evidenced by the Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish, and, in more recent times, Chinese language programming that dominates their program schedules and their revenue streams.

4662 Aside from the Chinese programming factor, these newer multicultural communities that have developed within the framework of the second and ongoing immigration era are, in many cases, unserved or largely underserved. The most dominant of which is the huge and culturally diverse South Asian community.

4663 Is essentially within the context of that evolutionary process across two immigration eras and resultant service void that have accrued from each that Infinity has formulated its ethnic broadcasting plan.

4664 MR. NEETI RAY: Madam Chair, a key initiative in fulfilling Infinity's ethnic broadcast plan is to fill the large programming void that exists within the huge and culturally diverse South Asian community of Greater Toronto.

4665 In many respects, Greater Toronto's South Asian component "is a community in waiting" because it had a significant block of high-quality Hindustani programming which, through no fault of the community, was lost to them.

4666 By way of a brief background, in 1990, our company created Radio India, a unique Hindustani-language based brokered program, which over the next nine years developed a huge listening audience and advertiser based from within the large and rapidly growing South Asian community of Greater Toronto.

4667 Initially, we had to broker time on an American border station WHLD 1270, Niagara Falls, in order to achieve any kind of access to Toronto's South Asian community because no Canadian radio station could accommodate us.

4668 After six months of border hopping, we were able to broker time on CKTB AM Radio in St. Catharines, where Radio India's time allotment grew from 10 hours per week in 1991 to 61.5 hours per week by July 1996.

4669 Regrettably, our brokerage arrangement with CKTB ended on March 31, 1998, and so it was on to CIAO and a sharply reduced time allotment for Radio India going from 61.5 hours per week back to 10 hours per week.

4670 By June 1999, the brokerage arrangement with CIAO was ended and Radio India was from gone Toronto radio air waves. This left at gaping service void in the South Asian community, which remains to be filled.

4671 It is rather sad that in the year 2000, a South Asian population of 500,000 is again largely dependent on a U.S. border station WTOR 770 AM, near Buffalo, for their Hindustani programming -- keeping in mind that Radio India's only access to the Greater Toronto's 190,665 South Asians a decade earlier was through its brokered time on WHLD 1270.

4672 In essence, the South Asian community of Greater Toronto has "travelled full circle back to square one" in its quest for programming services in the universally understood and respected Hindustani language, the lingua franca of south Asia.

4673 Given that the South Asian population within the Greater Toronto Region has gone from 190,665 in 1991 to 359,475 in 1996 and, today, stands at 500,000, it is clearly evident that the vast majority of South Asians are essentially unserved by Canadian licensees.

4674 Madam Chair, the South Asian community is the economic engine that will power Infinity's broadcast plan. We are no less committed to any of the remaining 21 ethnic communities or the First Nations peoples.

4675 In addition to fully training and working with each cultural group on an ongoing basis to help them realize their local community driven programming objectives, Infinity has structured its broadcasting schedule to ensure that each group, regardless of size, has a minimum of two hours of programming per week for those allocated weekend spots and a minimum of five hours per week for those groups allocated weekday program slots.

4676 Madam Chair, having spent the greater part of my broadcasting career dependent on station owners to air gain access to virtually any time slot to air my programs, I know all too well the frustration and sometimes the heartbreak involved in trying to achieve our cultural and creative initiatives.

4677 Hence, Infinity has opted to station produce each community's programming undertakings rather than broker to independent producers. The objective of delivering local/regionally relevant high-quality programming produced by the community for the community will best be achieved by Infinity's role as broadcast trainer/community animator/production facilitator rather than as a broadcast landlord collecting fees for ethnic broadcasting initiatives.

4678 MS RENU RAY: Madam Chair, approval of Infinity's application will greatly benefit ethnic talent within the Greater Toronto Region. As detailed in our application, Infinity proposes to spend a minimum of $202,000 in direct expenditures and $1.4 million in indirect on-air talent promotion initiatives over the initial seven-year licence term.

4679 The need for all types of assistance within Canada's ethnic talent sector is great, given that multicultural performers and artists on the whole do not enjoy the same level of access -- and hence exposure -- that mainstream talent has at their disposal through the multiple radio and television outlets in most markets across Canada.

4680 In addressing the diverse needs of ethnic talent in Greater Toronto and determining how to most meaningfully apply its resources to those needs, Infinity's talent development strategy has been designed to achieve a number of important fundamental objectives, including: the ongoing and education of a new generation of ethnic broadcasters; the provision of direct financial assistance to artists, performers, and attendant groups and organizations who promote and support talent; the commitment of a significant indirect expenditures of budget for the on-air promotion of local ethnic Canadian talent; the creation and regular weekly scheduling of programs within each language group served that will include and highlight local ethnic Canadian talent through on-air exposure of their work; the financial support and promotion of the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters' initiative (CAEB) of establishing a catalogue of Canadian ethnic recordings; to aggressively pursue every opportunity to work in concert with ethnic broadcasters across Canada in the exchange, co-promotion, and direct on-air exposure of local/regional ethnic talent to the nation has a whole.

4681 MR. HANS JANSEN: Madam Chair, Commissioners, the addition of Infinity to the Greater Toronto Region's spectrum will have a highly beneficial impact on AM radio in general and the Toronto market as well.

4682 Infinity's programming services to 22 distinct multicultural communities in 23 different languages will attract new listeners and increased hours of tuning to AM from targeted, unserved, and largely underserved communities. This increased listenership and hours tuned to AM will not come at the expense of other Toronto ethnic or mainstream broadcasters, given the fact that the third language communities targeted by Infinity are unserved or largely underserved.

4683 Approval of Infinity's application will result in "new radio dollars" being attracted to Toronto's AM sector with very minimal impact on existing broadcasters because our revenues will accrue from advertisers interested in reaching those third language communities that are unserved or underserved.

4684 Infinity's projected dollar share of the Toronto all radio market will remain below one per cent during every year of the first licence term. And, of course, the share percentage of the ethnic broadcasting segment is higher. In Year 1, the projected dollar share is 0.7 per cent and in Year 7 it is 0.9 per cent.

4685 We would also like to point out that Infinity's sources of revenue will be drawn almost exclusively from: one, new dollars attracted to radio, about 42 per cent; increase of advertising budgets, 21 per cent; repatriation from other media, 28 per cent; and from all other stations, 9 per cent.

4686 The unrealized potential inherent within the South Asian community and several of the other ethnic communities that Infinity proposes to serve is very significant. One only has to look at the size of the Yellow Pages business directories of each of these communities to get a sense of the untapped potential.

4687 We would note that through our previous Radio India program undertaking, Infinity has a ready-made South East Asian audience and an advertising client list of nearly 600 businesses, which it can revisit.

4688 As the Commission is aware, from the business communities letters of intervention, over $450,000 in pre-bookings were realized before any sales or marketing initiatives on the part of Infinity were acted on.

4689 This is highly indicative of the ability of the South Asian business community to provide Infinity with economic muscle. This muscle would service and program initiatives in those smaller communities that will require time and economic patience to develop.

4690 Jim.

4691 MR. JAMES ROBSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, a further key element of diversity that Infinity represents is that of ownership.

4692 The Commission's approval of this application will add important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting undertakings in the most culturally diverse city and radio market in the world; a market whose population is predominantly visible minorities; a market whose largest underserved community is South Asian.

4693 Infinity's owners are highly experienced South Asian broadcasters who bring a fresh perspective, new ideas and approaches, new energies and commitment, and an acute sensitivity to Toronto's existing and continually involving multicultural reality. It is important to provide the 740 AM opportunity to a new generation of hands-on ethnic broadcasters.

4694 In light of the vast differences in size of critical mass and developmental opportunities between Canada's mainstream English and third language broadcasting sectors, as a broadcaster and prospective new licensee, it is critical to Infinity that diversity of ownership and the fostering of competitive balance within the smaller ethnic broadcasting universe not fall victim to consolidation and concentration.

4695 MR. NEETI RAY: And finally, Madam Chairman and Commissioners, we come before you as highly experienced, hands-on ethnic broadcasters who are passionate about what we do and totally committed to assuming and fulfilling the leadership responsibility implicit with the granting of the 740 AM frequency. We will use it wisely and for the full benefit of those we serve and the Canadian broadcasting system.

4696 Madam Chair, Infinity is ethnic radio with a difference and committed to making a difference. We respectfully ask the Commission to allow us that opportunity.

4697 My colleagues and the panel will be now happy to answer any questions.

4698 Thank you.

4699 Merci.

4700 Shukria. For the record Madam Chair, that in Hindustani means we wish you well.

--- Applause / Applaudissements

4701 THE CHAIRPERSON: Shukria, Mr. Ray and your colleagues.

4702 I would ask that you speak a little further from your mics. There is a fair amount of echo if you speak into them too closely, Mrs. Ray, in particular. Just push it away from you otherwise there is quite a noise. I would also ask that the audience refrain from applauding until the end because it is very disturbing and distracting for both the appearing panel and for us.

4703 I would now ask Commissioner Noël, please, to ask a few questions.

4704 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I will ask you a number of questions -- not on everything you have mentioned -- I will only go into those areas where we feel we don't have a sufficient record for the hearing.

4705 My line of questioning will be local programming.

4706 You can't hear me? (Off microphone...) so seriously!

--- Laughter / Rires

4707 So as I said, my line of questioning will be about local programming, the ethnic population served, finance, and technical questions.

--- Pause / Pause

4708 I have too many books here, I guess.

4709 In the area of local content, the new Ethnic Broadcasting Policy states: that the Commission will expect licensees to report on the progress of their local content initiative at the subsequent licence renewals. It would be helpful for licensees to indicate in their plans how they will subsequently evaluate their progress.

4710 In your response to deficiencies, you stated that you will respond on a regular basis rather than periodically at licence renewals; that the success of your local content initiatives will be measured by the reaction in the community and that the community will, in a sense, monitor itself and quickly correct what needs to be corrected.

4711 What measures will you have in place in order to receive and react to the community's findings?

4712 MR. NEETI RAY: Commissioner Noël, one of the very important objectives of Infinity Broadcasting would be the reflect the local community. And when I say the local community, it would also mean the community outside the GTA, but within the coverage area of the 740 AM radio.

4713 COMMISSIONER NOËL: But what I want to know is how will you evaluate the feedback from the community?

4714 MR. NEETI RAY: Yeah, I was not finished yet.

4715 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Sorry.

4716 MR. NEETI RAY: We shall conduct the programming in consultation with each community. Now, we have 21 communities and we have a mechanism in place whereby each community is represented through an organization, a leading organization of that community. And instead of making rules for them, beyond the basic elements that we will have in place for local programming, they will have the autonomy to decide how they want to bring in their own communities' elements into the radio programming.

4717 For example, we have a stringer network set that will report the local events from the different communities within the coverage area. For example, in Kitchener, we have all these 22 communities and from each community there will be a correspondent who will be reporting, on an ongoing basis, the happenings within that community.

4718 Secondly, the musical side. We have numerous talents within each community that we wish to serve. Each program producer will be encouraged to utilize their talents to be showcased on the programs and, of course, later on during the question and answer period we will be touching upon the local talent development, Canadian talent development, and further elaborate on that.

4719 MS RENU RAY: Madam Chairman, if I may add, the Chinese development initiative proposed by Infinity within the context of its own indirect expenditure budget involves the staging of a unique on-air ethnic talent contest, where the overall winner from each participating language group is determined by the respective listen audience and reworded accordingly.

4720 Infinity will encourage the program producers within each language group served by the station to feature a weekly local talent segment as part of a regular broadcast schedule. The listening audience will in turn be asked to actively participate by choosing the favourite local artist by calling, faxing, or writing the station with their choice.

4721 All 23 language groups will be ultimately involved in this. The 23 pronounced winners whose collective talents will be featured in a professionally produced compilation disk which will be distributed to all other ethnic radio stations throughout Canada and the United States.

4722 The involvement of the audience will be an indicator measuring the Canadian talent development at the station.

4723 MR. NEETI RAY: And also Commissioner, we will be working on a daily basis with the communities and will be in touch with each program producer. The programs produced will be by the community for the community. And we shall be having direct feedback from the community on an ongoing basis.

4724 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could I ask you just to move back from the mic, because I have a lot of reverberation here.

4725 Thank you.

4726 In the area of local programming, your strategy is based on offering all of 22 ethnic groups time-quality slots regardless of their size and economic potential. Why is this programming strategy important to you and has it been your experience that some ethnic groups receive time slots that are based on their size and economic potential?

4727 MR. NEETI RAY: Yes.

4728 Commissioner Noël, in my experience, it is very important for the programming to be of high quality. An element of monitoring or supervision is essential. When the programs are brokered out, the producers are basically independent and they can decide what kind of programming they want to produce and air.

4729 In my experience, first of all, in Edmonton from 1980-89, where all programs were station-produced, it is interesting to note that more than 80 per cent of those programs are still on air. If a program was not of high quality, it will not have the response from the audience, it will not have a positive impact on advertising.

4730 MS RENU RAY: Madam Chairman, if I may add to that, on of the reasons why we are so particular to involve so many ethnic language communities is because we are sensitive to the needs of those communities.

4731 One of the most effective means for an ethnic community to voice its distinct culture and history and its role in Canada's evolution and ongoing development as a nation is through our dedicated radio programming. I would like to point to a study done by Dr. William Rakkar, a psychiatrist at the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, who said:

4732 He goes on to say:

4733 He further says:

4734 Madam Chairman, if an immigrant could hear a program on the radio in his language, it would provide a reconfirmation of who he is. And, thus, it would make his adjustment in this Canadian mosaic a little easier.

4735 MR. NEETI RAY: I also would like to add that, keeping this in mind, each group has been really provided a time not base on affordability but based on need. And each ethnic group, no matter how small it is, will be given at least two hours per week, one hour on Saturday and one hour on Sunday; and the larger ethnic groups will be given a minimum of five hours per week, one hour every day at the same time Monday to Friday and even the Saturday slots and Sunday slots will be at the same time.

4736 For example, the Ghana program, if it is at 5:00 o'clock in the evening on Saturday and starting the same time on Sunday, as well, so that accessibility is easier for the Ghanaians.

4737 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And you are convinced that having the same time every week will facilitate the funding of advertisers for that particular community?

4738 MR. NEETI RAY: Yes. What I was going say was programming continuity is important to be able to reach a larger audience within each community and the listeners would be used to the time and make accessibility much easier.

4739 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Are you aware that or is it your experience that some ethnic groups do not actually receive time slots that are based on their size and economic potential?

4740 MR. NEETI RAY: I don't quite follow you, but if --

4741 MS RENU RAY: Yes, Madam Chairman, we are aware that there are lot of ethnic communities that do not receive programming appropriate to their size. That is a void that we want to fill. Because a lot of programming for ethnic language groups are a mere 30 minutes, which is like a token.

4742 What we want to provide here is quality programming which we are going to provide at a minimum of two hours to the smallest community that we propose to --

4743 MR. NEETI RAY: Just by way of example, the Japanese community, which is more than 20,000 in number, has only 30 minutes of programming in Toronto. And, of course, there are many communities that don't have any programming at all.

4744 MR. JAMES ROBSON: Commissioner Noël, if I can just add a brief comment here.

4745 Infinity, when they set out their ethnic broadcast plan, they were most anxious that it be an equitable plan. Equitable in the context that in order for any ethnic group to build an audience, to build a revenue base over time, there has to be a continuity element there. When you look at the Toronto multicultural market, quite often there is very correlation between the size of the community and the amount of programming that is allocated to a given community. You can have a group -- for example, that might be in the range of 150,00 to 200,000 people, and they have an hour-and-a-half of programming.

4746 Under Infinity's model, the worse case scenario for any ethnic group, irrespective of size, would be two hours a week of programming. Within the framework of that two hours they can accomplish a number of things; they can address a number of the needs of the community; they can have a musical element; they can have the news and spoken word element, and various components.

4747 Now, Infinity is not going to dictate to communities what the balance within that programming framework should be -- whether it's two hours a week or five or ten hours a week -- but they will work in concert with the groups to train them, to help them to achieve that high-quality programming.

4748 I hope that puts it into some clearer perspective for you.

4749 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Yes, thank you very much.

4750 Now, in your application you state that you will offer programming to nine groups that are currently not served. How will you ensure that these inexperienced program producers, if they are currently not served and they don't have any broadcasting experience, have the necessary resources and experience to produce and provide quality programming?

4751 MR. NEETI RAY: Commissioner Noël and members of the panel, I would like to first mention, as we have also mentioned in the application, that will have a training program in place.

4752 My experience was, again, starting with nine years in Edmonton where I was one of the broadcast trainers at CKER Radio. I have held numerous workshops not only to train prospective on-air broadcasters, but also script writing, technical production, and the techniques of writing commercials and voicing commercials.

4753 And when we are licensed, if we are licensed, we will have this program in place and the group that we shall spend most time with will be the untrained groups, the inexperienced groups, and those are the nine groups that are currently unserved.

4754 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4755 Now we will discuss language. Your application indicates that 33 per cent of the programming schedule on your proposed station during the broadcast week will be in Hindustani. How many hours of programming in that language are already available in Toronto?

4756 MR. NEETI RAY: A check of all --

4757 COMMISSIONER NOËL: First off, maybe you can make for me a distinction between Hindi and Hindustani.

4758 MR. NEETI RAY: Did you say Hindi and Hindustani?

4759 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mm-hmm.

4760 MR. NEETI RAY: Yes, I'm glad you asked that question. We have on our panel, Dr. Rashesh Thakkar who is Director of South Asian Studies at York University and he is one of the experts who will shed more light on this.

4761 Dr. Thakkar.

4762 DR. RASHESH THAKKAR: Thank you very much, Neeti.

4763 In order to understand what passes under the name of today's Hindi and Hindustani, I would like to take you back a little in time.

4764 When the Persiansized-Turkish and later Persianized-Mughals dominated the political scene of India from the 11th century, they brought with them the Persian script, Persian vocabulary, literary models, and they were drafted an existing language called Caliveri(ph). Out of this blend of the Persian script and Persian vocabularies, with Turkish and Arabic words also included, and the existing Indian language, there arose this language which in those days was called Hinderi or Hindustani. Later on it also came to be known as Hindi/Urdu. At that point, the identity of Hindustani was predominant. As I am repeating now, it was the blend of the Persian, Arabic, Turkish script, vocabularies, and literary models on the one hand, and the existing Indian language belonging to the Hindu family of languages with its roots in Sanskrit. That is now how it developed.

4765 With the spread of the empire, the Islamic empire under the Turkish and later Mughal rulers, it spread to many, many parts of India. It penetrated even in parts of south India where the existing languages really belong to a different family of language.

4766 So Hindustani became popular, it began to be used in marketplace, in army, in court matters and it spread in large parts of what was India at that point.

4767 It was only in the 19th and 20th centuries when a certain emotional divide occurred between the two communities, Hindus and Muslims. They tried to reflect their communal identities even in the language. It was at that point that Hindi and Urdu drifted away from the root that was Hindustani. And Hindi became more Sanskrittized and the script that was used for Hindi was the Devanagari script associated strongly with the ancient Hindi language Sanskrit. Urdu became ever more to Persianized models.

4768 And, that would be fine, but all the Hindustani still remained a popular language in India that was understood in many parts because of this emotional and political reasons, Hindi sort of drifted away from it and what passes under the name of Hindi today is this Devana-Hindi or the language written in Devanagari script and made ever more Sanskrittized.

4769 It was for this reason that the leaders of the Indian independence struggle -- particularly Mahatma Ghandi and many other leaders -- because they wanted to bring the Hindu-Muslim communities together, they advocated that in future India, free India, that involve aspirations and hopes in the united India, it would be Hindustani, as distinct from what passes under the name of today's Hindi. Hindustani is distinct from any other regional language of South Asia would become the national language. Therefore, this started -- as early as 1930, even in South India, they tried to promote it and therefore Hindustani seemed to bring the communities together.

4770 If Hindustani was adopted today, the Pakistani community, where the national language is Urdu, and India, where the national language is Hindi, they are transformed into the same fold. So Hindustani has that unifying effect which Hindi in its Sanskrittized will not.

4771 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay, so if I understand well, Hindi is now the language of India and Urdu, the language of Pakistan, but both communities can understand Hindustani and speak Hindustani. Is that --

4772 DR. RASHESH THAKKAR: Very much so.

4773 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

4774 So if I go back to my question, how many hours of Hindustani programs are available actually in Toronto?

4775 MR. NEETI RAY: First of all, yes, Hindustani is the universally spoken and understood language in South Asia. I would like to mention that Hindustani is to South Asians, what English is to the rest of the world. We will have 41 hours of Hindustani language programming.

4776 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That's not the question I asked. I asked how many hours are available now in that language?

4777 MR. NEETI RAY: I'm sorry.

4778 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That is okay.

4779 MR. NEETI RAY: The check of all the program schedules of all the radio stations here in Toronto will indicate a total of 14 hours of Hindustani language programming -- actually, they have been defined as Hindi language programming in the Greater Toronto Area.

4780 But, also, if you mean how many hours of programming are heard in the South Asian community, you have to add a further 14 hours of programming from WTOR 770 AM being beamed from U.S.A. It may be very interesting to also find out that the on-air studio of WTOR is right here in Toronto a few blocks away from this hotel.

--- Laughter / Rires

4781 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Can you provide me with an estimate of the amount of Hindustani language radio advertising revenue that would be available to the Toronto market?

4782 MR. NEETI RAY: In our experience of the nine years that Radio India was on and our income statements as -- Chandar, chartered accountant, who is sitting also on the panel -- the revenues that were generated by Radio India was well in excess of $400,000 annually during the last two years of Radio India being on air.

4783 As far as -- we put some charity as to how much revenue will be available, I would also like to mention, Commissioner Noël and members of the panel, that -- if I give you one example, the Tamil community of Toronto, Greater Toronto, numbering over 100,000 and having only three-and-a-half hours of programming during the regulated hours, has this business directory which is exactly 800 pages and has over 1,800 business listings in this directory.

4784 It is also notable that there were more Tamil language programming a few years ago and this was half the size and then those programs went off the air -- I think about three years ago there was one major program that went off the air -- this has doubled in size. That gives you one indication. This business directory is of the Indo-Pakistani community called East-West Connection and has a listing of 2,421 businesses listed in that directory.

4785 As also indicated in the one of the letters of intervention by one of the chartered banks o Canada in support of our application they have mentioned that in their estimation there are over 3,000 Indian businesses in the Greater Toronto Area. In our estimation, that number is conservative, the number would be more than 4,000.

4786 Something else I would like to mention is that, you may be aware if you have read the letters of intervention from numerous businesses that we have already served in the South Asian community when Radio India was on, they have come forward and they have committed $450,000 worth of advertising if Infinity goes on air and we have not even lifted a finger in putting in place any sales strategies yet.

4787 And that, Madam Commissioner, should give you a pretty good idea of what should be available from the South Asian community. The amount that we would expect from the South Asian community would be in excess of the amount that has been already committed to us.

4788 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4789 If I understand well, the amount of advertising that you will get from the South Asian community would help finance the rest of the programming until such time as you can raise some advertising revenues in the other communities you want to --

4790 MR. NEETI RAY: Precisely right.

4791 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4792 Now that I have had the distinction between Hindi and Hindustani, I will skip over one question I had because the census of '96 reports 7,620 Hindi residents in the Toronto area and we couldn't figure out how you would survive with that small number.

4793 But do you have any concerns relating to frequency programs associated with 740 AM in the downtown core? What I would like to know, actually, is have you done any research regarding where your target audience is located within the coverage of 740 AM?

4794 MR. NEETI RAY: Yes.

4795 Madam Commissioner, the majority of the audience that we will be targeting lives outside the core of Toronto. They are in Scarborough, North York, East York, Etobicoke, the York Region, Mississauga, Brampton, Oshawa, and, of course, the good coverage that we have of this frequency of the target groups also are out there in Hamilton, Kitchener, Waterloo, Guelph, Cambridge, St. Catharines, and Niagara Falls.

4796 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So what you are telling me is the bulk of the people you want to serve is not located in the downtown core of Toronto?

4797 MR. NEETI RAY: Precisely right.

--- Pause / Pause

4798 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4799 Now we are going go to program expenses and finance questions. You predicted program expenses -- your projected programming expenses are about 6 to 15 per cent lower than those reported by ethnic AM broadcasters in Ontario in 1998. Is it because you will rely mostly on volunteer and community participation and, if so, to what extent will you rely on that participation from volunteers and community?

4800 MR. NEETI RAY: Madam Commissioner, you partly already answered my question by saying that part of the reason why -- the programming costs traditionally in all ethnic stations is far less than mainstream stations are precisely because of the reason that you have already mentioned.

4801 In my own experience, first on CKER Radio, is that we were all volunteers. The only thing we -- the most that we were very happy with was a part of the revenue that was passed on to us.

4802 In the case of Infinity Broadcasting, as we have mentioned a number times within the application, we will be doing this in concert with the different communities and they will be appointing these -- if you want to call them "volunteers" who will come forward, we will train them to become professional broadcasters and they will be doing the programs. Yes. Precisely. It is because of that reason why our programming costs are less than the mainstream stations.

4803 MR. HANS JANSEN: Commissioners, I might add one point: The latest year for which data is available is 1998 and the Commission may be referring to those numbers. During that year, the programming costs as a percentage of total revenue were 30.2 per cent. But we would also like to draw your attention to the fact that in the year before they were only 22.7 per cent. The latest year for which you have data available may be a bit of an anomaly. For instance, the average over the two years would be 26.4 per cent.

4804 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you repeat the average for 1997, please?

4805 MR. HANS JANSEN: 22.7 per cent of total revenue is accounted for by programming costs. This percentage increased to 30.2 per cent in 1998.

4806 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now we will go to a more technical aspect of the application.

4807 As you know, Mr. Ray, your application is competitive and technically mutually exclusive with seven other applications for use of the 740 KHz frequency. Under the scenario, the Commission seeks the competitors view to assist that in deciding which applicant has proposed the best use of the coveted frequency.

4808 What, in your view, are the compelling reasons to grant you to the requested frequency and in what way does your proposal constitute the best use of the proposed frequency?

--- Pause / Pause

4809 MR. NEETI RAY: Sorry about that. I think I will do better without notes.

4810 To answer that question, Madam Commissioner, and as I have also mentioned earlier, the focus of Infinity's objectives would be to maximize the utilization of the 740 frequency. In order to do that, first of all, we have gauged the pockets -- where the different of ethnic communities that we propose to serve -- live. We have found that there is a substantial number of ethnic communities, numbers of population of ethnic communities, living in Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, St. Catharines, and Hamilton.

4811 And, as we have also mentioned earlier, we will be setting up a stringer correspondent network that will keep the entire coverage area connected between the different communities.

4812 For example: the Kitchener community. When the German community in Kitchener is celebrating Octoberfest -- and as one of the letters of intervention by a German gentlemen mentioned, "The aroma of the festivities will spread to Hamilton, and to Toronto, and to Oshawa, and to the Niagara Region." And this is true of all the communities.

4813 That is one of the components, one of the very important components, of our programming objectives that will be providing these locally relevant programs in all these areas.

4814 The extension and enhancement of third language programming services to nine unserved and 13 largely underserved multicultural communities will be throughout the Greater Toronto Area and the other areas that are outside the Greater Toronto Area, which I have already mentioned to you.

4815 Maybe you want to add something to that Hans?

4816 MR. HANS JANSEN: Yes.

4817 Commissioner, if I could add two points.

4818 One, is the perspective of a broadcast consultant based in Toronto market. There is a real need for greater service in languages -- what we call languages -- and Infinity will add diversity in programming, it will reach new audiences, and most importantly, it will serve completely underserved communities. Neeti, did you have another point that you would like to make?

4819 MR. NEETI RAY: Yes. The optimum utilization of the 740 AM frequency in serving Greater Toronto and unserved parallel third language communities and the other areas, namely the Hamilton, St. Catharines, Niagara, Kitchener, and London areas, as well as the establishment, which I have already mentioned, of a stringer correspondent network.

4820 Now, significantly improving the balance of ethnic broadcasting services within Greater Toronto by narrowing the service disparity gap that currently exists between the well-served ethnic communities and the largely underserved and those communities who have no service at all.

4821 By way of example: the Italian community or the Chinese or the Portugese and Spanish communities are very well served, and the list of underserved and unserved communities that we already mentioned.

4822 The introduction of enhancement of the level of programming diversity and listener choice within Greater Toronto's multicultural communities that are unserved or badly unserved.

4823 Another point is the ushering in of a new generation of broadcaster/owner/operator thus adding diversity to the ownership ranks of the Greater Toronto's ethnic broadcasting community.

4824 Also, it will mean the addition of new Canadian talent development initiatives for the benefit of Greater Toronto's ethnic talent totalling a minimum of $1.6 million in direct and indirect expenditures.

4825 Also, there will be a beneficial impact on AM radio through the attraction of new listeners and increased hours of tuning without impacting the existing broadcasters.

4826 It will also mean the addition of new radio dollars to Toronto's AM sector with very minimal impact on existing ethnic broadcasters.

4827 Licensing Infinity will also -- there will be a provision of an important new cost-effective advertising vehicle to serve the third language business communities of the 22 targeted unserved and largely underserved communities.

4828 And also it will mean the repatriation of Canadian listeners and advertising dollars from U.S. border station, WTOR 770 AM, who is currently attracting listeners and advertisers from Greater Toronto's South Asian community.

4829 MS RENU RAY: And if I may had to that Madam Chairman, coming from a social background will bring with us a sensitivity to the needs of the multicultural community that is existing in Toronto. We bring a dedication and a commitment and a sincerity to provide good, quality programming to all the ethnic communities that we propose to serve.

4830 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you. Thank you.

4831 I have two more questions. And those are very technical.

4832 Are you aware of the availability of other AM frequencies that could be used to establish the proposed radio service in Toronto?

4833 MR. NEETI RAY: The answer would be: Precisely, no.

4834 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And could you comment on the feasibility of using a frequency located in the extended portion of the AM band, such as 1605 KHz or 1705 KHz?

4835 MR. NEETI RAY: The answer to that would be -- the 740 frequency, the extended reach of the 740 frequency, is the most adequate one to be able to serve the 22 ethnic communities within the coverage area which includes Kitchener, Hamilton, and St. Catharines which we will not be able to reach if it is any other frequency -- especially a frequency on the higher height of the dial.

4836 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Higher on the spectrum.

4837 Now, as I mentioned earlier, you are aware that the CBC vacated the 740 KHz frequency in favour of FM 91.1 because it claimed that its former signal, CBL AM, was not satisfactorily received in certain areas of urban Toronto. Do you have any concerns about coverage of your proposed station in the downtown core of Toronto and, if so, what means would you undertake to resolve signal reception problems that could occur?

4838 MR. NEETI RAY: As mentioned earlier, the majority of the ethnic population that we propose to serve, they are living outside the core of downtown Toronto. That will not be a concern.

4839 Also, in our personal experience during the nine years that we were on 610 CKTV Radio, which used to beam from St. Catharines -- that was not a local radio -- we didn't have any significant amount, any meaningful amount, of complaints about the signal.

4840 Hans?

4841 MR. HANS JANSEN: Commissioner, if I may add one point. I have reviewed the technical documentation within the CBC files. They have done tests to measure strength of signal and the results of that analysis indicate to us that we don't have to be overly concerned about that this. We can live with those limitations. But you are right, there definitely is a problem in the highly built-up downtown areas.

4842 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

4843 I would ask the legal counsel if he has any questions before I give you the opportunity to wrap up on your application and tell us why we should give you this frequency rather than to give it to any other applicant.

4844 MR. DON RHEAUME: I have no questions at this time. Thank you.

4845 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You have five minutes.

4846 MR. NEETI RAY: Would you like me to wrap up?

4847 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mm-hmm.

4848 MR. NEETI RAY: With your permission, before I wrap up, I would like to make one more point and that is Infinity Broadcasting has futuristic plans. One of them is based on the fact that the communication -- the media, the technical advances that are taking place, including digital radio that in a few years time will be quite prevalent, is also another dimension that lies on the horizon that we don't know where it is going to take the radio. That is the kind of a collaboration that we foresee -- a co-existence between radio and the Internet.

4849 We were very fortunate to have Mr. Ashok Kalle who is a very successful entrepreneur and who established a very successful Pathway Communication, which is the Internet server backbone. He was responsible for putting Radio India on the Internet. It was for the first time that we experienced something which was magnificent and that is that we got calls and hits from all over Canada -- in fact, from other parts of North America, and the rest of the world. And in what way it will enhance broadcasting in the future is still to be seen.

4850 I would invite Ashok Kalle, the President of Pathway Communications to make some comments on that.

4851 MR. ASHOK KALLE: Thank you.

4852 Madam Chairperson, and members of the Commission, I just want to make a plea that our proposal be considered very strongly and that we be given an opportunity to represent the ethnic communities that we believe are currently underserviced.

4853 It has been my personal endeavours in the past few years to create an Internet service provider, an Internet company, that stands out amongst all others in Canada and possibly all over the world.

4854 I believe that there is a unique opportunity for us here to be able to address the under-represented ethnic communities. I have a personal stake in this organization. I am extremely confident that with Neeti Prakesh Ray and his experience at the helm and the members of the community who are going to participate in this whole process that this will be probably a landmark radio station. I am extremely confident. I believe we have all put our money where our mouth is and that there represents an opportunity for us as we move on to be able to create some unique synergies between the Internet and this particular radio station that will have no parallel anywhere else, not only in Canada but anywhere else in the world.

4855 Thank you.

4856 MS RENU RAY: Just by way of example, we put the supplementary brief on the Web site and we had so many interventions -- I think over 200 just on the e-mail, actually, much more than that -- and even as late as two days ago, we received an intervention from Japan intervening on our behalf. So this is the future and we hope to have Mr. Kalle with us on that.

4857 MR. NEETI RAY: In fact, the putting of the entire supplementary brief on the Internet, I was told was unprecedented. The number of quality letters that we received was attributed to the fact that people were able to go to the Internet and at the ease of their homes and go through the entire supplementary brief. In fact, some of them also indicated that they feel that they are much better educated about CRTC and the proceedings as a result of the supplementary brief.

4858 Now to wrap up. As I said earlier, Infinity Broadcasting has objectives that are futuristic. We know that Toronto's population is going to increase at a higher pace in future. If you have read the news recently, Ottawa is debating on increasing the immigration level from 200,000 to 300,000 as soon as possible.

4859 And also a study by Strategic Projections Inc. has projected that in the next three decades, more than 2 million new Torontonians will be seen, most of them immigrants. That clearly indicates the kind of preparations that Toronto has to do -- these new transit lines being set out, these new services like social services and housing and health care and so on.

4860 One sector that needs also to be looked after is the broadcast sector to be able to serve the growing needs of Toronto's growing ethnicity which, just to recap, that three per cent of total population of Metropolitan Toronto in 1961 was visible minority -- only three per cent; 97 per cent were White population. In 1991, the visible minority population came up to 30 per cent and 70 White population. In a short few years, in the Year 2000, this year, the total population of Toronto will consist 54 per cent visible minorities and 46 per cent White population.

4861 Madam Chair and Commissioners, the granting of 740 AM to Infinity Broadcasting will yield many key public benefits, including the extension and enhancement of third language programming services to nine unserved and thirteen largely underserved multicultural communities throughout the Greater Toronto Region.

4862 The optimum utilization of the 740 frequency in serving greater Toronto and the unserved parallel third language communities within its extended service contours, including the Hamilton, St. Catharines, Niagara, Kitchener, London and Oshawa.

4863 As well, as the establishment of a stringer correspondent network significantly improving the balance of ethnic broadcasting services within Greater Toronto by narrowing the service disparity gap that currently exists between the well-served ethnic communities and the largely underserved, and those communities who are not served at all.

4864 Number four. The introduction and enhancement of the level of programming diversity and listener choice within Greater Toronto's multicultural communities that are unserved or badly underserved.

4865 Number five. The ushering in of a new generation of broadcaster/owner/operator thus adding diversity, true diversity, to the ownership ranks of Greater Toronto's ethnic broadcasting community.

4866 The addition of important new Canadian talent development initiatives for the benefit of Greater Toronto's ethnic talent totalling a minimum of $1.6 million in direct and indirect expenditures.

4867 Number seven. A beneficial impact that licensing of Infinity will have on AM radio through the attraction of new listeners and increased hours of tuning without impacting on existing broadcasters.

4868 Number eight. The addition of new radio dollars to Toronto's AM sector with minimal impact on existing ethnic broadcasters.

4869 Number nine. The provision of an important new cost-effective advertising vehicle to serve the third language business communities of the 22 targeted unserved and largely underserved ethnic communities.

4870 And last, but not the least, the repatriation of Canadian listeners and advertising dollars from the U.S. border station, WTOR AM, who is currently attracting listeners and advertisers from Greater Toronto's South Asian community.

4871 Madam Chair and members of the panel, we come before you as highly experienced broadcasters, hands-on ethnic broadcasters, who are passionate about what we do. We are totally committed to assuming and fully looking after the fulfilment and the leadership responsibility implicit with the granting of the 740 AM frequency. We will use it wisely and for the full benefit of those we serve and for the Canadian broadcasting system.

4872 Madam Chair, Infinity is ethnic radio with a difference and committed to making a difference. Therefore, we respectfully ask the Commission to allow us that opportunity.

4873 Thank you.

4874 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray and your colleagues. We will see you next week no doubt.

4875 We will now take a fifteen-minute break and be back at 10:40 to hear the last of the competing applications. That will complete our day. For those who may not have heard yesterday, we will resume on Monday morning at nine with interventions by applicants into each others applications.

4876 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Recess at 1025 / Suspension à 1025

--- Upon resuming at 1049 / Reprise à 149

4877 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

4878 MR. PETER CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

4879 Our next application, in fact, it is our final in this competitive process, is by Radio 1540 Limited for a broadcasting licence to carry on an ethnic AM radio undertaking in Toronto. The new station would operate on frequency 740 KHz with a transmitter power of 50,000 watts. The applicant is proposing an ethnic programming service. By condition of licence, the applicant will direct programming to a minimum of 20 cultural groups in a minimum of 25 different languages each week.

4880 The Commission notes that this application is technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing for the use of the 740 KHz frequency. Radio 1540 Limited currently operates ethnic radio stations CHIN AM and a transmitter; CHIN FM and two transitional digital radio undertakings in the Toronto market.

4881 I now invite Mr. Lenny Lombardi to introduce his team. Mr. Lombardi.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4882 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you.

4883 Good morning Madam Chair, members of the Commission. My name is Lenny Lombardi and I am the Executive Vice-president of CHIN Radio International.

4884 Before we begin our presentation today, I would like to introduce you our panel here today.

4885 Let me begin first with the man immediately to my left. He really needs no introduction. A pioneer in the field of ethnic broadcasting -- and my father, as a matter of fact -- Mr. Johnny Lombardi, President and CEO of CHIN Radio. To his left is Mr. Bob Culliton, our Chief of Finance at CHIN Radio and also our General Manager. To my right, Mr. Stephen Zolf of Heenan Blaikie; he is our legal counsel today.

4886 Directly behind Stephen is Arvinder Sahota. Arvinder is our South Asian producer at CHIN Radio. As well as an experienced broadcaster, she is the producer of South Asian Festival and South Asian entertainment at the CHIN International Picnic, at Canada's Wonderland, and many other cultural events throughout the city sponsored and produced by CHIN Radio. To her left is Mr. David Oakes of Oakes Research. David is here to answer any questions with regard to our demand study and other related issues. To his left, my sister, Theresa Lombardi. She is Vice-president of Administration and is also the producer of the CHIN International Picnic. To her left, Donina Lombardi. Donina is President, I am sorry, Vice-president of Public Relations -- that is a Freudian slip! -- and Promotion, as well as our regular television host of Festival Italiano -- co-hosting with my father no less -- and also a weekly guest host on our radio programs on CHIN Radio. To her left is Jai Ojah-Maharaj, our producer of Caribbean programming on CHIN Radio. Jai has over 20 years experience in Caribbean broadcasting and has produced numerous events through CHIN and most notably, the West Indian and Caribbean entertainment featured at the CHIN International Picnic.

4887 On the far table, I would like to introduce Mr. Dario Amaral. Dario is our Manager of Programming and Operations as well as our producer of Portugese programming at CHIN Radio.

4888 That is our panel here before you this morning.

4889 We are pleased to present to the Commission this morning our proposal for a new and innovative concept for ethnic radio in Toronto. We have created a unique blend of bilingual and third language programming that we believe will fill a vast gap in the current programming choices available to Toronto's ethnic communities.

4890 By carefully building a programming schedule for 740, while also repositioning and recasting the schedule of our existing AM service, the result is an innovative and unique programming format which will not only provide more diversity and choice to ethnic audiences, it will also recognize how their needs have evolved.

4891 In this presentation, we wish to highlight three key issues.

4892 First, our proposed new format for AM 740 and the impetus for our application; second, CHIN's unique potential to add diversity and choice to the Toronto ethnic radio market; and third, the benefits that licensing our application will produce.

4893 Before explaining our vision for the future, we would like you to know a little bit about our history and our accomplishments in the ethnic market to date. We have prepared this little video for you.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

4894 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Madam Chair, members of the Commission, my name is Johnny Lombardi.

4895 The history of ethnic broadcasting and communications had its beginning and interest from me at the tail end of the Second World War, where I served in the Canadian army in the newly liberated Europe.

4896 As Canadian soldiers, we were briefed to do encourage and sell Canada as a land of opportunity for possible immigration to Canada. I was delegated among others to address displaced persons, refugees, towns people, prisoners of war -- who ever would listen. I must say, I learned more about Canada than I ever knew, even though I was born in Toronto.

4897 My experience travelling all over Ontario as a barnstorming musician in the 1930s and also playing music for dancing for the many ethnic groups, even then in Toronto, gave me a working knowledge of other languages which came into play in my role as a salesman for new Canadians.

4898 Three months after discharge, I purchased air time from CHUM Radio and produced Canada's first bilingual program -- music in Italian and the spoken word in English.

4899 In 1964, I became a small partner in the original application for 1540 AM with Ted Rogers -- the famous Ted Rogers.

4900 In 1966, after purchasing control from Mr. Rogers, who moved on to 680 AM, CHIN went to air June 6, 1966 -- the first ethnic station in Ontario and certainly one of the first in Canada.

4901 CHIN paid it bills with quality hands-on programming in Italian. But we also made sure that as many as 36 small community language groups including Portugese and Chinese were also represented, both on AM and on our subsequent FM licence.

4902 Our agenda has always been the serious devotion to ethnic broadcasting for everyone and creating our own market.

4903 Now, over 160 languages and cultures are celebrated in the area. If we are to move to the next stage of ethnic broadcasting, 740 with its strong coverage, presents a key opportunity to us. Yes, ethnic audiences have matured. Access to 740 will level the playing field for our listeners.

4904 With the 740 frequency added to our already successful 1540 AM and 100.7 FM services, we can keep happy the original "home" language listeners who still want to served in their language of comfort, and at the same time we want to serve their children and grandchildren who practise the culture daily, but not necessarily the language.

4905 We are now at the dawn of the 21st Century, ready to meet head-on the next evolution and development of ethnic radio.

4906 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: The Commission's new ethnic broadcasting policy has introduced significant flexibility for the ethnic radio sector. One aspect of the policy that gave us food for thought was the Commission's novel approach to considering the issue of quality of service provided by ethnic stations. The Commission will now look at the entire market in assessing whether a licensee has met its broad service requirement rather than using a station-by-station approach.

4907 Our application, we submit, is the first real-world example of the Commission's new policy. We feel that we have carefully balanced the competing and sometimes conflicting priorities of serving a maximum number of groups while also ensuring new high quality programming. In this way, we have met the objectives set out for the broadcasting system in subparagraph 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting Act.

4908 A significant component of our new format will be bilingual programming. This format will move seamlessly between English and mother tongue languages. We have focused on three specific ethnic groups: Italian, South Asian, and Spanish.

4909 We would also offer additional programming to 25 distinct linguistic and cultural groups of which eight are currently without any programming whatsoever. Programming in the Czech, Latvian, Maltese, and Hebrew languages will be available for the first time to listeners.

4910 Finally, we are expanding and repositioning a number of existing programs serving various ethnic groups on CHIN AM.

4911 Bilingual programming represents the next stage of evolution of ethnic broadcasting in Toronto. Our proposed format will provide a bridge to second and third generation listeners and a link to their cultural heritage.

4912 The key role of this programming format was recognized by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters in the review preceding the Commission's new ethnic policy. CAB noted that a mix of unilingual and bilingual ethnic programs would better meet the needs of new and second and third generation immigrants.

4913 We are pleased to note that the Commission has indeed introduced more flexibility for ethnic licensees to meet the needs of its audiences in the area of bilingual programming.

4914 Donina.

4915 MS DONINA LOMBARDI: Our application mirrors the evolution of ethnic radio audiences that has occurred over the last 20 years.

4916 After careful examination, we discovered a large component of second and third generation ethnic audiences that no longer conversed in their mother tongue. The predominantly third language offerings of today's ethnic radio stations reflect a "generation gap" and loss of shared experiences.

4917 How large is this underserved audience? The potential of size of bilingual audiences among Italian, South Asian, and Spanish groups is staggering: 300,000 Italians; 200,000 South Asians; and almost 60,000 Spanish listeners, representing a potential bilingual audience for 740 of nearly 600,000 listeners.

4918 A 740 a bilingual programming format would fill the vacuum created as more generations turn away from traditional third language programming; preserve and strengthen cultural traditions, language skills and understanding; provide inclusive programming to all members within a particular cultural group, regardless of their proficiency in either language; finally, it would include a vast audience of potential listeners from other ethnic groups and from non-ethnic groups attracted to this cross-cultural programming; and finally, most importantly, a CHIN service on 740 will enable us to implement a new bilingual programming format without being at the expense of our existing listeners on CHIN AM and FM.

4919 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would now ask Arvinder Sahota and Jai Ojah-Maharaj to explain some of these programming initiatives.

4920 MS ARVINDER SAHOTA; Programming on 740 would build on a format that has found great success on our current services. Programming such as Geetmala Radio, which now broadcasts from CHIN FM each weeknight and on Sunday evenings reaches listeners of all ages. We are already experimenting with an English language component, in view of our multigenerational listeners.

4921 740 will enable to us at the move to the next level by focusing on a more bilingual format. It will reflect the reality that an increasing English-speaking audience is being attracted to our programming. This new format will attract new generations of South Asian listenership by including a variety of languages concentrating mainly on India and Pakistan, but also by recognizing a bilingual listenership.

4922 Our bilingual format will also provide information programming for new immigrants to help them integrate into Canadian society. The goal of our programming will be to bring together the entire South Asian community, celebrate our multiculturalism, and to embrace Canadian society.

4923 MR. JAI MAHARAJ: Our audiences continues to grow. It is our hope that the Caribbean programming on 1540 AM can expand if CHIN's application granted. If licensed, CHIN would offer over 17 more hours to the Caribbean audiences.

4924 I have been the producer and host of the Caribbean Connection for the past twenty years. Since 1981, the show has evolved to reflect the many changes taking place within the Caribbean-Canadian community. As the name of our show implies, we at CHIN wanted to reach out to our listeners and keep them "connected" with Caribbean culture and heritage.

4925 Our Caribbean listeners span many ethnic groups, including people of Indian, Portugese, African, and Chinese descent, to name a few.

4926 Our Monday to Saturday schedule is diverse and varied. We focus on Canadian-Caribbean talent such as Calypso, Soca, and Reggae artists, instead of hip-hop and R&B acts.

4927 Our programming ranges from Monday night's Chutney Cruise, a fusion of English and Hindi languages combining exotic East Indian and Caribbean rhythms, to Friday night's Soca Mix Down, an upbeat show targeting the growing groups of youths of Canadian-Caribbean descent.

4928 By expanding these programming formats on CHIN's services, we will continue to meet the many needs of the Caribbean community.

4929 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: While the AM 1540 signal continues to serve a core group of multilingual listeners in downtown Toronto, many of our listeners have "outgrown" the 1540 AM signal. Our 1540 service must now be "powered down" for as much as twelve hours every day. Therefore, our ability to serve all of our audiences is severely limited.

4930 CHIN's ability to reach these audiences would be greatly enhanced by the coverage provided by 740's contour.

4931 CHIN is uniquely positioned due to potential synergies through common ownership to increase the total level of diversity and programming choice in the ethnic market. With two sister stations, AM 740 would realize economies of scope and scale in the areas of sales, marketing, facilities, and programming production quality.

4932 Moreover, common ownership will allow us to target underserved groups even if the programming does not cover its full costs. These synergies will produce key dividends in our programming schedule.

4933 740 offers a real opportunity for CHIN to provide a service that is complementary to all of the programming currently offered by existing ethnic Toronto radio stations. By "repositioning" programming among 740 AM and our AM station on 1540, CHIN will be able to maximize its audience as well as the level of programming diversity in both bilingual and third language formats.

4934 CHIN also carefully developed its proposed programming on AM 740 so as not to compete directly with existing ethnic broadcasters. Most of the programming we propose is aimed at either unserved or underserved ethnic groups.

4935 A key means of achieving this minimal overlap is by the repositioning of CHIN-AM and 740 schedules to maximize audiences while also ensuring little in the way of programming duplication and overlap. A stand-alone ethnic applicant could not achieve this result.

4936 If anybody will be cannibalized by our ethnic format, it is our own services. Much of our current 1540 AM schedule will be transferred from 1540 to accompany our new bilingual and underserved programming on 740. In fact, the largest component of revenues projected for AM 740, a total of $2.1 million, will be earned from by diverting sales from 1540 to 740.

4937 We conducted a survey, which clearly shows that most of our advertisers will increase their overall budgets if 740 is licensed to CHIN. Therefore, the projected impact on revenues of other ethnic stations, we believe, will be minimal.

4938 For example, many of our Portugese advertisers have expressed a desire for more buys, particularly in the morning drive slot, where no Portuguese programming is currently offered.

4939 MS THERESA LOMBARDI: Our Canadian talent development initiatives reflect a determined commitment on CHIN's part to make a difference with ethnic performers. To help develop new artists, CHIN has proposed financial contributions totalling $100,000 each year of the licence.

4940 At least $50,000 of these expenditures will be directed to eligible third parties including factor, music action, national and provincial music organizations, performing arts groups, universities and schools, and scholarship recipients.

4941 CHIN will pledge to release at least four new ethnic recordings through the Bravo Record label in a minimum of four languages each year during the 740 licence term. In our view, these expenditures will help to fill the current void in the inventory of ethnic musical recordings resulting in benefits not only in exposing listeners to new diverse and high-quality Canadian ethnic content, but also by adding to the current ethnic play list for all ethnic broadcasters. In fact, we are pleased to inform you that in four short months since filing our application, we have now compiled an inventory of ethnic Canadian recordings totalling over 1,000 songs.

4942 Our Canadian talent initiatives will result it real benefits associated with discovering, producing, recording, and showcasing new Canadian ethnic musical talent.

4943 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: We are eager to take the next step in the evolution of ethnic radio in Toronto. Not only will our new service provide a link for many second and third generations to their cultural heritage, but we will also provide real benefits to the Canadian broadcasting system to new Canadian ethnic talent.

4944 We appreciate the opportunity to present our application before the Commission in this hearing. We are now ready to answer any questions that the panel might have.

4945 Thank you.

4946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi and family -- I guess "team" is not good enough.

--- Laughter / Rires

4947 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.

4948 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome, Mr. Lombardi and family.

4949 Can you hear me okay? The acoustics in this hall have been a problem all week and we just hope it works each time. But if you can't hear me at any time just feel free to ask me to repeat it.

4950 What I will do is go through a few different areas of questioning where we would like some more information or clarification. Feel free to add whatever information you feel is necessary.

4951 I'll just outline the areas: we will start with bilingual programming; second, local programming; third, broad service; fourth, Canadian talent development; fifth, the advisory board; sixth, your employment equity policy; seventh, marketing -- and I want to focus on the Conquest survey; eighth, the financial projections; and last, some technical issues.

4952 And just before I get to that first issue of bilingual programming, let me just make a comment about the record of the hearing with regard to your application.

4953 I took a look through the letters of support that came in and they are quite impressive. Certainly, a lot of them focus on you, Mr. Johnny Lombardi. Some were very specific about the application; some were a bit more general and talked about the stronger and wider signal and support of that; and others just said, Mr. Lombardi Sr., that you were a great broadcaster committed to the community and we should just give you whatever you asked for.

--- Laughter / Rires

4954 Is that a fair -- that's not a bad thing in itself, that is quite a character reference --is that a fair overview of the interventions, that there was that range? Did you interpret them in that way?

4955 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I think that's fairly accurate. We have had an opportunity to review many of them. There is a tremendous about amount of passion for the work that CHIN Radio has done and, in particular, the contribution my father has had in ethnic broadcasting.

4956 I think when people found out in the marketplace that we were applying for 740 and the reasons and the visions that we had for that, that in many cases seemed to be a enough for those people to be motivated to write a letter. But we also provided many of our supporters with detailed information with our supplementary brief and got the kind of support that you saw.

4957 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Let me start with a detailed question with the bilingual format which, in a sense, is the cornerstone of your application. What I will do now is just talk a bit about what you plan to do in the programming and a little later we will come back to the marketing issue about the support for it.

4958 It's also a new idea and new ideas require us to think about them quite closely and carefully. They are also exciting ideas, so we want to make sure we really understand what you are talking about. Because, as I understand, this may be the first application that we have had which is proposing this type of bilingual format.

4959 Tell me a little bit about how a bilingual program would sound. Would the host go back and forth between the two languages? Would the music be in two languages?

4960 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Mr. Cardozo. The best way to describe the bilingual format that we envision is, as we said in our written submission, a seamless flow of two languages: one, the English; and the mother tongue of the community we wish to serve.

4961 We envision that the best approach for that would be either through one completely fluently bilingual host or the use of two individuals, one more proficient in one language than the other, but with the working knowledge, and having the opportunity to play off one another and to exchange dialogue.

4962 The music content we envision to be third language is going to be culturally directed. So when we say bilingual Italian programming, we are looking at a bilingual flow of the spoken word, but the music content is Italian language.

4963 Our programming is focused on the community, it is focused on the culture. Why we want to introduce a bilingual format at this point in time is because we recognize the evolution of generations within certain communities. In particular the Italian community, where it is a long standing community, it has matured and the community has grown and developed. We find a trend of third language not being closely kept up and that members of that community are better served in the English language but, nevertheless, still want a cultural connection to their community.

4964 Quite frankly, if we don't provide this type of bilingual programming, members of communities as they mature, in particular the Italian community, will eventually be disenfranchised. They won't have a cultural connection to their community through the radio.

4965 It is ironic that they would be denied the same benefits that their parents had back in 1966 when my dad was first licensed, that community grew up with the a radio service that had, which I believe, a tremendous influence and the benefits of this community in Toronto. And yet, their children's children won't have those same benefits because if ethnic broadcasting remains in third language to those groups, second and third generation members really have no outlet, no connection to their community and eventually turn to other services that have no cultural enrichment whatsoever.

4966 I may have gone a little bit long on the reasons why we want bilingual, but the sound is really two hosts, not translating each other's dialogue by no means, but basically having two friends who are very comfortable in the same language, quickly interchanging it, with the notion that the person listening on the other side, the radio audience -- it is understood by our concept that that individual is neither proficient in one language or the other, but needs to hear both. He may not or she may not even be from the community in which we are serving. She could be Portuguese, or of Greek descent, or of Caribbean descent, but wants to know more about the culture. In that way it is very much a cross-cultural type of program and it is inclusive of everyone who can receive that. No one is denied access into that programming concept.

4967 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We will come back to the reasons a little later when we look at the Conquest study, but I just want to focus for now, for the next few minutes, on what the programming will be like.

4968 Do you have any bilingual programs now or are any of the programs that are in third languages, have they got English content in them currently?

4969 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, we wouldn't actually call them bilingual programs. We do infuse some of our programs with the English language, but basically we are dabbling, we are experimenting.

4970 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But would a host who is doing a program in any language throw in a few words in English here and there?

4971 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: In some language groups, in some programs, yes, you might hear a little bit of English on our Italian program, you might here a little bit more on South Asian programs. And that's it, really.

4972 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Newscasts that you have, would those be in English or in the other language?

4973 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: For the new bilingual format proposal, the newscasts would be in English.

4974 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

4975 So the music will be exclusively or almost exclusively in the third language and the spoken word will be mixed. Is that more or less how it will go?

4976 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That's correct.

4977 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is almost full circle to the first program you were talking about in your opening statements, Mr. Lombardi?

4978 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Yes, that's right, Commissioner Cardozo.

4979 When we first started out, we were forbidden to speak a language other than the official because of the War Measures Act and Order in Council forbidding foreign languages to be spoken in public. When that was rescinded, of course, subsequently, then we went into languages.

4980 But I must say that we have been experimenting for years with the inclusion of English in a lot of our programs because we had no choice. If we interviewed, say, the Prime Minister or the Premier of Ontario or Mr. Manning or any one of the top people in politics who do not speak the third language, we had to interview them in the English language. Then the announcer who was fluent in English and Italian or whatever language, would then to his audience would translate the message in their language.

4981 So we have been doing this. It has been an ongoing experiment. We are now convinced that the second and third and fourth generations are not, not -- and I repeat this -- not clinging to language, but they are very comfortable in the culture. They practice it everyday at home and social events in the city.

4982 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see that the music would compete with English stations?

4983 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Sorry, Mr. Commissioner, could you repeat that?

4984 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you see that the music or the spoken word content would compete with English stations in the market?

4985 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Oh, absolutely not.

4986 First and foremost, our proposal is an ethnic service. We will be directing our programming content specifically to a cultural group.

4987 Our music play list is going to be in third language. There will be minimal play of any English material whatsoever unless we produce it ourselves and that we may produce recordings that are reflective of what is happening in the community. And if they are English recordings and where they are playing, we may integrate them into the program, but that would result in a very small percentage.

4988 So we don't envision us competing at all with mainstream.

4989 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Playing "Livin' La Vida Loca" by Ricky Martin, are you going to play the Spanish version or the English version?

4990 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Gee, that's a hard one.

4991 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You don't have to answer that.

4992 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That's a hard one. I like them both. We'll rotate them.

--- Laughter / Rires

4993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It will do well in both languages, I think, very well for you.

4994 The new ethnic broadcasting policy talked about local programming. We wanted to have licensees and applicants describe their plans for local programming that would reflect the listenership in area you are broadcasting to. How do you plan to -- can you describe how your local programming would be and how you would evaluate it?

4995 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would first like to note that CHIN Radio has been broadcasting on AM 1540 and 100.7 for the last 34 years. We are very experienced in the art of local broadcasting. In fact, our strength is just that. It is a dedicated reflection of the local communities in which we serve. And our producers, we have you know tremendous relationships with the many of the associate producers that we have developed over the years. Each producer and programmer is vitally connected to their communities in which they serve and do a tremendous job reflecting the local flavour and character of their community.

4996 Other steps that we take with respect to local programming is encourage continual flow of listener feedback, talk shows are encouraged, on-air presentations are encouraged from the community. We attend many local events and cover them live-to-air, such as the CHIN International Picnic and many of our other ethnic festivals throughout the city.

4997 CHIN Radio is probably one of the greatest public entities as far as broadcasting is concerned because we broadcast on remote virtually every day of the week. So our mobile is out on the road, our people are constantly in contact with our communities in which we serve. So there is a very high level of local programming. That is really our focus.

4998 We have no syndicated programming on CHIN. We have minimal foreign content other than news services via satellite or news wire with regard to news services from various parts of the world, but all the rest of the programming is produced and editorialized by CHIN.

4999 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I can see that is more -- I mean, you can keep an eye on that kind of local content is easier for your mainstay languages like Italian, but I am wondering how that plays out across the various languages. Do you have a rough sense of what kind of percentage would be local news, local content would be national, Canadian, and would be international or home country material?

5000 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: On the new service we propose? Well, how we envision the new service to be is an English newscast with particular relevance to the community which we are serving.

5001 So our international news service would be integrated into our news, but if it is Spanish language, then we will be looking at Latin America as our top stories and look to those as being featured on those news breaks. But predominantly, we would be focusing on local news, local news that is relevant to the community. Percentages? I haven't worked out those percentages, but it would be, I would say 70 per cent local --

5002 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- then apply for the other languages where they have got, like, half-an-hour, an hour, two hours of programming. Do they have some local content too?

5003 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, we would provide news services to all of the language groups, third language groups that are broadcasting --

5004 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Like a wire service.

5005 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Sorry?

5006 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They would have access to a wire service in English, perhaps, then translated in to --

5007 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That is right. Correct.

5008 I would also like to add one thing with respect to quality of programming on the technical side. CHIN Radio has a policy of producing all of our own programs and we actually have full-time producers on duty acting as audio engineers. They really act as the supervisors of each and every show. So we basically have an order with respect to how our programs should air and a quality control, if you will, and our producers are on duty 24 hours a day, so to speak, to make sure that those objectives are met.

5009 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Turning to the broad service issue and take you through a few questions there. Essentially, I want to address precisely the issue you have mentioned in your opening comments.

5010 As you know in our policy we said, in our recent policy released in July of last year, we will continue to set the number of groups served by a commission of licence and we have also said that we, or the Commission, will maintain its objective that service should be provided to smaller as well as larger ethnic groups.

5011 Let my start by asking you to describe the content of a half-hour program. Some of the groups that you have proposed, such as Arabic, Estonian, Latvian would have half-an-hour per week. What would be given a half hour? I know every one is going to do it differently, but what is the typical --

5012 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Sure. Half-hour programs are not uncommon in ethnic broadcasting. In fact, it is just -- right now on CHIN AM and FM, it is really a -- it is a musical mix of a little bit of music, a little bit of talk, a lot of reflection on the community, social activities, and local relevant news the community and international news service.

5013 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can they be substantial within half-hour?

5014 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: You are absolutely correct, Mr. Commissioner, it is a 30-minute show and within those confines it would require some pretty tight programming, but our vision is that these current communities have no service whatsoever at this point. We also have to reflect on our general view of what we are trying to achieve with this new service. That is something that we envision in our bilingual programming.

5015 But, at the same time, we did want to provide a greater diversity to the ethnic market and looking at a 30-minute program, although is very short, it only effects six of our language groups.

5016 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So on average in a half-hour program, have you got, what, two or three segments where you will have some music, some news, some other kind of talk?

5017 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, that's correct.

5018 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And if we had that same group, say, let's take the Farsee(ph) language group had an hour or two hours, would they -- besides just having more, would they be able to do a lot of difference with that program? Would it be that much more deep or substantial?

5019 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, I think that would allow for more music content and, of course, other obvious aspects that lend themselves well to radio such as talk and spoken word and communication within the community.

5020 But don't forget, though, what we are also bringing to the table with these smaller groups, although they may be reflected in 30-minute programs, they also have an opportunity to grow with CHIN.

5021 And I should add that as we began this journey in ethnic broadcasting 30 years ago, many of the groups that we are serving today who have six or seven hours of service began with a 30-minute show.

5022 What we did is we grew together. One of the greatest outlets of that expression for communities is the CHIN International Picnic or events like that where a producer -- and we have many producers who have limited amount of time -- use that time for an expression at an event like the Picnic and that allows for growth of that program. And we respond to that. That is how our relationship with our associate producers is built. We respond to their needs. If they can demonstrate and we can demonstrate together that a need is growing within the community, then we adjust our schedules accordingly to try and provide more time.

5023 But for this format and for this schedule, it was an attempt at a beginning.

5024 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of the numbers of groups that you have suggested for this application, is it the same kind of numbers in CHIN AM and FM -- your current stations?

5025 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: The numbers are quite similar in the actual numbers. The languages are different.

5026 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there many that are duplicated on different stations?

5027 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Duplication in the sense that we are adding a greater amount of service to some communities? Yes. In some cases we are, we actually have a schedule --

5028 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So if you have, say, a half hour of Farsee(ph) on one station and a half hour on another, are they different producers or is it the same producer who is doing two shows?

5029 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Generally, they are different producers.

5030 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So then is there -- if you had -- well, you do have two -- if you had two or three stations, is there room for you to consolidate the language groups or would the producers prefer to have separate half-hours and would the community prefer to have separate half-hours?

5031 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: First of all, our mandate and desire is to have the highest quality programming available. If that is achieved with two producers, that is our preference. But if our associate producers are much superior than whatever else is available in the marketplace then --

5032 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What I am getting at is this issue of balancing numbers of programs versus whether consolidating is a valuable objective for the system overall.

5033 I am wondering if things work well as they are where you have got the broad-service model, which you proposed for this application, with a lot of different groups -- some of them getting very short amounts of time -- is that what the communities want or is there the possibility that the ethnic broadcasters can sit down together around the table and, sort of, trade hours so that one would do all of one language and another would do all of another language?

5034 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would think that would be an extremely difficult thing to accomplish. I think the marketplace dictates to some extent how that all works out. And also the objectives of individual broadcasters and what it is they are trying to achieve. Our radio stations very attractive to producers because we have a policy of associate-producer relationship. We don't broker our air time. It doesn't cost a producer money to broadcast on CHIN.

5035 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are they volunteers for the most part?

5036 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Volunteers in the sense of do they work for CHIN to free?

5037 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

5038 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Without an --

5039 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The various language components --

5040 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, the way our relationship with them works is on a cost-share basis. The producers put up their talents and skills and sometimes record libraries, CHIN Radio brings to the table our expertise in broadcasting, state-of-the art facilities, administrative support, in many ways instructions in broadcasting, and we both work to produce those programs together and we share equally the revenues that come in.

5041 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5042 My last question on broad service -- and I hope you don't mind what I am doing here talking to you about your application, but I am also getting your views about the system in general because we always got to keep an eye on both the individual applicants and the system. I appreciate your views based on your experience.

5043 How do you deal with the newest of the new communities and for one reason or another the newest of new communities quite often are related to trouble spots in different parts of the world? So you think of some of the newest refugee communities, you think of the Somali community being here for five, ten, fifteen years, but others like Kosovars, Bosnians, Timorese, Hutus, Tutsis, et cetera. I notice you have got Somalis in your group. What happens to the newest of the new where you are dealing with very small communities -- but probably a really pressing need for some kind of programming in their language?

5044 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I must admit, Mr. Cardozo, I only heard parts of your question because the acoustics in here, but I think I caught the essence of it and if I didn't, please ask me again.

5045 CHIN Radio has enjoyed a position in the ethnic community of being a lighting rod or a focal point for access and information. We have tremendous relations and connections within the ethnic community.

5046 As immigration needs or issues within the communities arise, such as many as the ones that you have spoken regardless of how small, those messages or those pleas are directed to us. Where time is available -- and under some certainly circumstances we make time available for certain issues -- we respond and react is act to those needs.

5047 And in a way, this comes back the to issue of the 30-minute program, you know, where you have got very small communities but with very, very large and important needs. So it is a way of beginning that process of giving that access and outlet to those communities and allowing them to have a voice within the community and some recognition.

5048 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the list that you proposed here is the list that you would have at the start of this licence if you were to be granted it, but it would evolve over time? And the condition of licence would deal with the number, but within that number you would evolve over time as the need changed?

5049 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, in particular to the third language programming schedule on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday. Yes, we would look at those programs and evolve.

5050 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I do have one other question on broad service and that is timing of shows. We were talking earlier with another applicant about the reliability of knowing when a show was going to be on. So if there is just a half-hour, you can't switch that around too much. Especially with these half-hour shows, are they usually at, say, the same time on Saturdays or whatever and people know that? Are they always at the same time?

5051 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: The quick answer is to that is, yes. We find a program schedule and we live with that and work to build audience. That has really been the method of ethnic broadcasting and in part its success. We build loyalty and offer programming services at a dedicated time so that the community knows at 3:30 in the afternoon on Sunday, programming services are available to them on radio. Now, once we decide on a program schedule we tend to stick to it.

5052 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me move to Canadian talent development and talk about your Bravo recording label. Can you tell us a little bit about how that works and how it relates to your company, to CHIN?

5053 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I take it you are referring to the $50,000 of our $100,000 commitment to the development of the Bravo record label.

5054 What we want to do in particular with our Canadian talent development is ensure that we have revenues available to invest in the talent that we intend to develop through our work in the communities that we serve, through the many festivals and competitions and events that we support and produce. We have had tremendous success and experience in this, and we recognize a need, a serious need, to develop ethnic Canadian talent in Toronto.

5055 And what we envision to do with that money is reinvest in artists that we intend to locate, produce, and record. The commitment there is to release four musical recordings per year in a minimum of four different languages. And that is what that money is for.

5056 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me a little bit more about Bravo itself? How long has it been in existence?

5057 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I think I can answer that, Commissioner Cardozo.

5058 Almost 50 years ago, I founded Bravo Records. At the time, I was buying air time from CHUM and CKFH. I felt that there was so much talent in the Italian community that it deserved to have a recording company recording this talent. So 50 years ago, we founded this Bravo Records.

5059 I must say that most all records that we did record were of the talents in the Italian community because the Italian community was so up front more than any of the others and it was because I was really involved with the supermarket and radio programs and concerts and the sporting events. The record company really was a good fit.

5060 We did also record many of the festivals, we gave out a prize of $1,000 to the winner at Ontario Place and at Wonderland. They became quite popular because a lot of talent, unless you give them a chance or give them a microphone and showcase them, they will never be known and then they are discouraged. We don't like to discourage anybody.

5061 We open the doors to talent and we seek the talent and then we help to showcase the talent and then we lead them to recording -- sometimes to recordings with other companies, but most of them wanted to record under Bravo because they felt that we then would promote those records on our radio programs, which was a natural for Bravo Records.

5062 We have now reached a point where we are into a very, very complex multicultural and multilingual and international aspect. I don't want to keep Bravo just doing Italian recordings, we want to spread our wings and want to get in all the other ethnic groups.

5063 I happen to be the President of Canadian Association of Ethnic Radio Broadcasters and we have seven or eight owners of radio stations who are members. They are always pressing me to do something about a catalogue. And you know what? We have done something about a catalogue that takes in all the ethnic groups. We have it here with us today if you want to see it. We have got over 1,000 titles in this catalogue.

5064 I promised this the last time I was here and I said the next time we are in front of you we are going to have a catalogue. And here it is! One thousand titles. We can increase that 1,000 titles to 5,000 if we work at it and everybody gets behind it. That is why I plead my case with Bravo. Bravo is a natural fit for ethnic broadcasters because we have been doing it for 50 years.

5065 I think we should be developing it even more into all the languages, not just the Italian. And we are prepared to put the resources behind us and we promise you that we will do four CDs every year. We will may sure -- you can be sure that we keep our word. Our record is public and you can check our public record and you will find that whenever we promised something, we kept our promise. This is one of the promises we have kept. We have got 1,000 titles here available to all the stations, not just us at CHIN.

5066 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And these are Canadian talent?

5067 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: That's right, ethnic Canadian talent.

5068 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to clarify then the manner in which you will be making this or is it $20,000 -- no, this is $50,000 --

5069 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: $50,000.

5070 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Will this be a direct or an indirect cost for Canadian talent at Bravo? Will CHIN be, in a sense, cutting a cheque to Bravo for this?

5071 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: That's right, that's right, that's correct.

5072 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have one question to quibble over, you can give me the answer later. In may addition of the breakdown that you have given, it comes to $96,600, rather than $100,000. So that is $3,400 short. Maybe now or later -- during your presentation here you can just clarify if my figures are wrong or whether --

5073 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Just add the GST to that.

--- Laughter / Rires

5074 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't know, legal counsel will tell us about whether that is applicable. Otherwise, I would be glad give you my favourite cause!

--- Laughter / Rires

5075 Okay. Let me ask you about the advisory board. Can you tell us a little bit about the mandate of the advisory board you are planning?

5076 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: The advisory board will be made up of approximately seven individuals and the mandate will be to reflect the goals aspirations of 740.

5077 So far we have three members that have agreed to serve: Professor Jerry Good, Mr. Sam Ciccolini, and Felix Mora who is a member of the Immigration and Refugee Board. The balance would have similar diverse backgrounds either in broadcasting or in professional industry with a sympathy and understanding for the ethnic communities.

5078 Basically, their role will be to monitor the needs as expressed by the communities at large and they will be our eyes and ears to the outside world so that we are given a fresh perspective. They will also work very closely with our programming director and our news directors to ensure that those mandates are being met in fair and equitable manner.

5079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And will this advisory board just be for 740 or would it be for the other two services to?

5080 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, I think that is another example of the synergies that we will enjoy. If we are licensed for 740, that advisory board would oversee all of the ethnic programs and all of those mandates because there are so many similarities there because of the number of third language programs that we are providing that they would actually be involved in all three services.

5081 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5082 Just a question on your employment equity approach. You have an employment equity policy in place for your existing services?

5083 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, we do. I would like Mr. Culliton to respond to that.

5084 MR. BOB CULLITON: Yes, we do.

5085 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I won't ask individual numbers, but how many employees does CHIN have in total at the moment?

5086 MR. BOB CULLITON: Approximately 110.

5087 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And between that you feel you have had success in terms of the various designated groups under employment equity?

5088 MR. BOB CULLITON: Yes, we do.

5089 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me go to marketing and start by asking you the number of groups that you plan to serve. There is a couple of different references to -- I think it's 20 cultural groups and 25 linguistic groups. Is that correct?

5090 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That is correct.

5091 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And that is the way you would want defined in a condition of licence?

5092 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That would be fine.

5093 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5094 Do you know if -- there is just one other question I want to go over before we get to some details in marketing. Within the broad service that you would be providing or that you have provided in your existing stations, can you identify -- and I don't want you to give me any precise groups -- but do you know whether there is a cross-subsidization and do you have a sense of which groups are subsidizing and which groups are subsidized, in terms of the income that come via the different shows?

5095 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Just for clarification, on our application of 740 in the third language groups we are proposing to serve?

5096 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, I just want to get your view on cross-subsidization. You can either tell me in terms of the new application or you existing services. Do you think about the issue of cross-subsidization as to which groups are subsidizing which groups? My sense is that the larger groups with the larger communities are able to bring in larger amounts of income. In the smaller groups, you don't get that much in terms of ad revenue.

5097 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That's exactly correct. We don't specifically analyze a community and say that that is going to be a cross-subsidized group.

5098 What we attempt to produce is a business plan that is solid and at the same time meet our conditions of licence and promise of performance in serving a number of ethnic groups promised to do so. So we begin to do that.

5099 We don't necessarily look at a community at any point in time and ask, "Can more money be generated from that community? We are spending too much money on this program, you know, it's time to delete that." We look at providing the programming first and we have had programs on CHIN Radio -- I'll mention Austrian and Swiss, for example -- that have been on the air with us for 25 years and I don't think a commercial has ever been aired on any of those shows. So we have long-term commitments to programs that we elect to serve and don't really identify them or penalize them for that. But I would like Bob to, perhaps, respond to that.

5100 MR. BOB CULLITON: In our business plan for 740 for the weekend, if we take 18 hours -- 6:00 to mid-night on Saturday and Sunday -- and work that out to 36 hours, we have allotted 12 of those hours to be subsidized for the third language groups.

5101 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me move to the Conquest study. Is that Mr. Oakes who is responsible? I am glad you are here. I have a lot of questions for you. I hope you will bear with me. I want to go some of the details because as I say, this is really the first kind of application of this kind and I want to get a good sense of what you are trying to do in terms of the bilingual programming and get a sense of whether this is a start of a trend.

5102 You have got the report with you and I will just refer to some of the pages -- this is the summary portion, I guess. On page 9, you have got a chart that shows the numbers of people from ethnic groups and from four groups, in terms of first, second, and third generation, what is the source of that information? Is that StatsCan or would that be the people you interviewed?

5103 MR. DAVID OAKES: I believe -- one sec, let me just check on that. I think it is the survey itself, not StatsCan.

5104 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Looking at the figures that you have got, in terms of first generation, Italian origin is 27 per cent and the other three groups, Portugese is under and Chinese are considerably more. Is it possible that the medium-term, long-term, that Italian unilingual programming will be going out of fashion and the system, overall, will need to do more or do unilingual for the other groups?

5105 MR. DAVID OAKES: Well, yes --

5106 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of the need.

5107 MR. DAVID OAKES: I am sorry?

5108 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of the demand or the need.

5109 MR. DAVID OAKES: The survey shows that with bilingual programming, the largest percentage within these groups first generation and what I call "the subsequent generation", the largest demand is in the first generation even though it is in English. And what the survey found out is that with the Italian group, I believe it is 96 per cent of all generations can spoke English without any problem to listen to a radio station or watch a TV program.

5110 So I expect you will see this number -- first of all, the first generation because of the small amount of immigration coming from Italy, it is gradually diminishing, and with it goes the language. It is much more difficult for second, third, subsequent generations to stay in tune and up on top of -- and be fluent in the Italian. Yes, that will, I believe that the demand for third language programming within the Italian community through time is going to continue to diminish.

5111 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I'll take you to page 11, where you have got a chart on language of interview. I understand that you did the interviews in either English or the language that the respondent preferred. Were these unilingual interviews or bilingual interviews?

5112 MR. DAVID OAKES: Right at the top they were asked what the preferred language would be for interviewing. If it was one of the languages that Conquest had interviewers for then if they requested third language, then they were interviewed in third language. But as you can see with the Italian community, 90 per cent wanted to be interviewed in English.

5113 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5114 Now let's look at the proficiency of languages on page 12. You have got quite a bit of information on the subject. I am confused about some of this. Maybe you can explain this to me.

5115 In the first -- in the top paragraph, you note that initially the language of members of Toronto's ethnic communities can use to converse, 97 per cent; then you have got: follow a radio or television program, 96 per cent; or read a newspaper, 95 per cent.

5116 Okay?

5117 But lower down when you deal with individual communities, the number of people who are proficient enough to -- in English -- no, who are proficient in the language, that the numbers of people who are proficient in Italian is down to 49 per cent, Portuguese is 63 per cent, and Spanish is 52 per cent.

5118 So does this suggest that people are -- more from these communities are more proficient at reading newspapers in English than in their mother tongue?

5119 MR. DAVID OAKES: Not quite. This isn't a preference question so much as it is a question of proficiency. Looking at Italian, 61 per cent are proficient in Italian. Because of their stated language proficiency, they could understand radio and television programming; 61 per cent feel they could carry on a conversation in Italian.

5120 But the survey didn't ask how proficient, it just simply asked them if they could and 49 per cent read an Italian newspaper. That doesn't really say that they prefer it, it just simply says that they are proficient.

5121 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is 95 per cent as the overall average number proficient in reading a newspaper, in this case in English, that looks to me high inasmuch as the -- like, were you just talking to people who had significant literacy levels? Because I look at the overall Canadian literacy level and I think the overall Canadian literacy level, what, you talk about proficiency to read a newspaper is down around the 60s. I think in many ethnic communities it is give or take a few points.

5122 MR. DAVID OAKES: Well, I am not -- would that be a StatsCan study done on literacy?

5123 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: There is StatsCan who have done studies and there have been national literacy studies, as well. So I am just wondering if you tended to -- these interviews were done verbally, were they, as opposed to written?

5124 MR. DAVID OAKES: Right.

5125 And there might be a difference in the way the questions were asked. In this question, when it was to their own judgement whether they felt they were proficient -- I read a StatsCan study some years ago on proficiency and they had some different definitions of proficiency.

5126 So this wouldn't take into account someone that might feel that they can't read at all --

5127 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: (Off microphone)

5128 MR. DAVID OAKES: If I could just -- let me just finish this, it might help explain -- they would probably be in the "don't know/no answer" category.

5129 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you selected your respondents, did you sort of choose a person and ask say thou shalt answer the question or did you ask them to find someone in their household, for example, who would answer the question? Because that might explain some of it.

5130 MR. DAVID OAKES: Let me take a looking at the questionnaire. At the very start there is the ... no, they used the -- this is basically how it worked: They said, "Including yourself, how many people in your household are 18 years of age and older?" And if there was nobody 18 years of age or older, they were not interviewed. If there were -- the instructions are: more than one than person has to speak to the person who had the most recent birthday. That way it randomizes it within the household so you are not getting the situation of where you are -- somebody who is extremely literate or...

5131 One of problems you run into with surveys like this is somebody, let's say a twelve-year-old's son, is thinking this is a survey on language, he better get this father who is proficient in Italian so he would say, "Pop, get over, this guy wants to speak to you in Italian." That won't happen with this randomization.

5132 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the next page 13 -- we are getting to a bit more of the meat here -- language use for radio and TV. I refer back the previous page where you talked about the numbers and communities that can converse in English.

5133 In your findings, do you sense there is a difference between people who can converse or can consume radio or TV versus people who do inasmuch as maybe there is a person who can speak English, can watch TV in English, but will tend to turn on TV in a different language?

5134 I look at some of the other stuff you had been looking at recently was around French/English for years and you have got a large number of people who can converse in French, for example, in English speaking Canada who probably can read, understand, watch, but when they turn on the TV, will they go to the language they are most comfortable with.

5135 So I am wondering if your figures -- it is not necessarily the figures per se, but your sense of whether there is a difference between what people can be proficient in and what they actually prefer to consume.

5136 MR. DAVID OAKES: I might be a good example of French. When I worked in the government in Ottawa, I was put on French, I thought I was bilingual. When I left Ottawa and came to Toronto, every so often I would watch French TV. I am definitely not fluent in French. If somebody asked me, "Do you have a knowledge of French well enough to follow a television program?" I might say, yes, but that is my judgment. There is no other standard other than mine. And I think that is the problem you run into here with such high percentages in the 90s of people from ethnic groups saying they have proficiency in English to follow media.

5137 It is going to be a complete spectrum of people's abilities and their judging for themselves and telling you whether they are fluent or not. Some of these people undoubtedly could follow along, but if you imposed some sort of standard of comprehension from it, they might not be able to meet that standard.

5138 This survey just simply asked them to judge for themselves if they could follow along.

5139 I think by-and-large it is not a bad measure. Looking at all the other measures of reading, of speaking and whatnot, I believe the numbers are fairly consistent.

5140 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I then move to a couple of pages, one is page 19, and the other is page 34.

5141 There are two interesting sets of figures you have got here. I won't go into the detail of numbers necessarily, I won't say "necessarily" because I just might.

5142 On page 19, you talk about importance of language diminishes with generation; and on page 34, you talk about the likelihood of listening, and that also diminishes over generations. Am I right here to read that the importance of language, which goes for these four communities you looked at, goes 61-49-23, first-second-third? So importance of language is 61-49-23 and then when you go to likelihood of listening, it is higher, but, again, diminishing so it is 72-57-41. Is that a fair observation that the number of people who -- now, you have got a number of questions about the importance people place on ethnic heritage and stuff like that, and this that type of question -- so the degree of importance that people have for the language of origin is, in fact, a bit lower than the likelihood of listening. So there may be people who aren't strongly into pride of language and importance of language, but still like to consume radio in that language.

5143 MR. DAVID OAKES: Well, if you look at page 35, the likelihood of listening is to bilingual programming. It was the concept of bilingual programming was described to the respondent.

5144 So looking at the likelihood, I think it is very interesting that the first generation are more likely to listen to bilingual programming than the subsequent generations. Language isn't playing an issue there. It is with the first generation in that they will have to have a good understanding of English to be able to listen to bilingual programming.

5145 Now, if you follow the subsequent generations, their interest in the culture drops the further out they go -- whether it is fourth-fifth-sixth, whatever. They have lost the language and now they are starting to lose touch with the culture. The likelihood of them listening to a bilingual program is diminishing.

5146 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't know if you have it on this chart -- well, it is not a chart actually, it is in written form -- but on the issue of likelihood of listening to bilingual -- and the explanation you give is very helpful to understand this.

5147 Do you sense there is a difference between the likelihood of listening to a bilingual program versus their likelihood of listening to a program in another language? And, in a sense, this is an important test for what you are -- what this proposal is about.

5148 MR. DAVID OAKES: Sure.

5149 Without fluency in the third language, someone has no chance of listening to a third language program. Naturally. And certainly in our estimates, the demand for third language programming is directly related to proficiency in that language. By-and-large, most of the proficiency is with the first generation.

5150 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the likelihood of listening for the second and third generation to a unilingual program in a third language would drop off considerably?

5151 MR. DAVID OAKES: Unilingual, third language? Yes.

5152 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5153 Can I just take you back to a couple of detailed questions on pages 28-29? You talk about people who are interested in news from around the world on bilingual radio. Some of the figures are higher: Spanish speaking communities, 76 per cent; and on the next page, you have got Black community, 54 per cent; East Indian community, 52 per cent. I am just wondering if you could explain those two to me, the Black and East Indian, as to why those would be in the 50s versus Spanish in the 70s?

5154 MR. DAVID OAKES: Well, that is a good question. I'm trying to think of the answer right now --

5155 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The other thing that occurred to me were the Black communities have a large English-speaking component -- the Black community within Canada is primarily an English-speaking community, except the more recent immigrants from Africa.

5156 MR. DAVID OAKES: I am sorry, I can barely hear you.

5157 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It occurs to me that this may be explained by the Black community being a largely English-speaking community and the East Indian community is fairly highly proficient in English as opposed to, say, the Spanish-speaking community. Is that --

5158 MR. DAVID OAKES: That is one factor, definitely.

5159 I think the other factor is what I call "the maturity of the ethnic group." If you have -- well, let's take a look here -- Spanish-speaking Latino community: I can see them being more interested in news and information from around the world, particularly their country.

5160 Spanish immigration is fairly new. There are more first generation, I believe, in Spanish than there are in some of these others. I believe because of that they are going to have a higher interest in international news. If you go over to the East Indian community, which is 52 per cent, once again, I think with language that they are by-and-large proficient in English. Also, it is a community that has had its roots in Toronto for while. So you are getting more subsequent generations being a higher per cent -- they are starting to lose that thread of culture and it is not really a demand for them as much as it has been in the past to hear international news.

5161 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I just go to page 29? You talk about music from your ethnic group -- and this is quite an interesting issue certainly for the proposal that you have got. You note that 71 per cent of the respondents are very or somewhat interested in listening to this music. So that is where you would derive, Mr. Lombardi, your focus on music in third languages, I would assume?

5162 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I would say that there is a rebirth of people from other countries to lean on the fact that there are better recordings out now than ever before. Take, for instance, Andrea Bochelli, who was completely unknown two or three years ago, and there is a voice that is cutting across all cultures and is listened to by almost all cultural groups and the Anglo-Saxon and Francophone.

5163 I would have to say that there is a great appeal now by either part of ethnic groups who are a little more affluent, have a little more money. They can buy CDs now, as against years ago, they could barely afford the 78s. Today, they can buy all the new technical things that are available and they want nothing but the best. They want high-quality music. They want high-quality programming.

5164 And I think that when you are talking about the ethnic groups now, they are so well informed about what is happening all through the world. It is because they are also listening to a lot of the English-language and Francophone programs.

5165 So it is not just ethnics that are informing them. But you know what? There is a feeling on the part of people who say, "Well, lookit, we can't force our children to speak the language but, gosh, they have got to respect our culture, our traditions, our religion, our foods, our customs." All these things are highly respected and I think there is a great value put on culture now, more so than language.

5166 That is the way it should be here in Canada. We should be more Canadian than we are ethnic but, at the same time, I think we should be proud of our roots and our heritage. This is what we are talking about in bilingual programming. I think people want to be proud of their heritage, but not necessarily do they want to talk in the language of their forebearers.

5167 MR. DAVID OAKES: If I could add something: the wonderful thing about music is that it doesn't exclude people necessarily if they don't understand the lyrics. You mentioned Ricky Martin's "La Vida Loca". I have heard the Spanish one and to me it doesn't sound any different from the English. I guess I know the English lyrics now and I know what "la vida loca" means.

5168 But if you look at also the survey results, the music, it is also dependent on generation, but a little less so than some of the other things. So looking it the subsequent generations, if they still have a feeling for the culture, the music is quite easy to listen to.

5169 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just have a few more general questions on the study -- no more specific ones, I won't refer to page numbers, you will be relieved to know. Can you tell me how you defined first, second, and third generations? Who is first generation?

5170 MR. DAVID OAKES: First generation -- MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I would like to answer that. My father was first generation. He came here in 1900. I was second generation because I was born here. Lenny it is third generation because he was born here. His daughter is fourth generation. So I guess -- does that explain it?

5171 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, it does although I won't ask you what kind of numbers your granddaughter would come out with in terms of proficiency or interest in language --

--- Laughter / Rires

5172 I am sure it is going to be higher than these numbers.

5173 So if you have a family with kids who come here when the kids are teenagers or something like that, who is first and who is second? Are they all first?

5174 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Well, if they all come from the old country, they are first, but if they are born here, they become second. I think that seems to be the rule of thumb. It depends where you are born.

5175 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is generally how it was for the survey?

5176 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Yes, I suppose so, yes. Although, I think that David can talk to the survey more than I can.

5177 MR. DAVID OAKES: I am sorry, could you repeat the question?

5178 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regard to first generation, second generation, when you talk about family migration and you have got parents with younger or teenage kids, they are all in the first generation category, are they?

5179 MR. DAVID OAKES: If someone migrates from a country to Canada and the child is six months old and they are with their parents ... that is a good question! They could be considered first generation. Certainly from a mother tongue standpoint, which adds a little bit to the generation aspect, if they were raised on that language and still show a proficiency in it, they would be mother tongue first generation.

5180 Usually the measure is you are born in Canada, you are subsequent generation.

5181 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for that confusing answer.

--- Laughter / Rires

5182 I was hoping you would clarify what my generation status was and you haven't. I have always wondered whether I am first or second. But this is not about me, there are other applications, so let's stick to the affairs here.

5183 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think Commissioner Cardozo has to hire Conquest!

--- Laughter / Rires

5184 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do leave me your business card at the end of this.

5185 MR. DAVID OAKES: I might point out that I am not part of Conquest, I have been brought in to look as a researcher at this, but I would be glad to give you my business card at the end!

--- Laughter / Rires

5186 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We could set up some sessions to discuss this issue further.

--- Pause / Pause

5187 I have a really good question here, but I can't read my writing. Sorry.

5188 Let me just ask you in closing if there anything else you would like to add about this study that you think we haven't covered in this discussion. As I say, I wanted to spend some time on it, because I think the discussion of the bilingual interest in this type of -- the interest in this type of bilingual program is one that I really wanted to explore. Is there any other specific aspects that you would like to add information to from your study which we haven't talked about?

5189 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I think I would like to add something here, Mr. Cardozo.

5190 We are talking about the people that are already here. We are not making any mention of the people, the thousands that will be coming into this country in the next few years because I understand immigration is going to be increased to about 300,000 a year. There are so many illegals coming into the country too, so you would have to add to that 300,000.

5191 But really, I think what we are talking about here is that there are two phases in ethnic broadcasting. The original people who relied to language and language only for a livelihood, they couldn't see their way clear staying in Canada unless they understood things and had things interpreted for them. And that is what CHIN -- the role that CHIN played -- was. We interpreted Canada. We made it easier for them to work here and everything else and raise a family.

5192 Now the second and third generation, they have to be taken care of, but not at the expense of the original immigrant. Then how about the immigrants who will be coming in shortly? They are going to be in need of language programming. So that's why we decided to apply for 740. We could broaden our scope and take in all those that were here at the beginning, their children, and the immigrants who will be coming in.

5193 And if we can move around our programming and flow with the immigration and take care of the needs of the first immigrants, and also their children and then the new immigrant, I think we have got the best of public service when it comes to making for better Canadians and it speeds up immigration and makes for better Canadians.

5194 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you Mr. Lombardi, given your view that there is this need for bilingual programming -- I hope you don't mind, this is an unfair question -- but if you were not granted this licence, would you not want to do more bilingual program on the two services you have? Do you see that evolution taking place?

5195 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Earlier in our discussion we did say that we had been experimenting for years. As a matter of fact, I started as a bilingual broadcaster in 1946 at CHUM and then I moved in with the times and went into language. Now it seems that we may have to also go back to bilingual because that seems to be the route to go for the second and third and fourth generations. But at the same time the experimenting that we have been doing -- we have got programs that are totally done in English.

5196 For instance, Zelda Young doing the Jewish program on FM, it's done totally in English, but it's 100 culture. It is all about the Jewish community. And you heard from Arvinder Sahota. She has been experimenting with her wonderful dad who is in the audience here and the two of them originally started out speaking in Hindu and Pakistani and all the languages from East Asia. But now they have gone into somewhat experimenting in bilingual to get the young people. You would be surprised the telephone calls that Arvinder gets on her program when she talks English.

5197 So I say we need the 740 to balance out our programming otherwise we are going to have to penalize the people who are depending on language to make room for the bilingual. We dare not do that because I don't think it is fair to the original immigrants who were the loyal people who came here without a penny in their pockets but worked hard and made a good life for their kids. I don't think we should now just throw them aside on behalf of their kids. I think we should take care of both of them.

5198 We feel that we don't have enough on the two stations. We need 740 to broaden our scope, broaden our influence with all the ethnic groups everywhere, not just in Toronto, but the Greater Toronto Area. We talk about the 740 being very weak the downtown area. I agree, otherwise the Commission would never have bought the argument from CBC that the 740 was not good enough in downtown Toronto. So that is why they wanted the FM. And you bought that argument. So I say that the CRTC was right. If it can't be heard downtown then they had every right to go to FM.

5199 But we have a 1540 that is downtown and can be heard downtown, but we can't be heard outside of Toronto very well; 740 can't be heard downtown, but they can be heard outside of Toronto. So you get two disabled frequencies and you put them together and you got one good frequency.

5200 And that's what we are talking about here because we deserve after all these years of trying to get full power on a 1540 and we have never able to that because the protection of the American station on the same frequency -- it's a lost cause.

5201 So I am pleading our case that we need 740 and whatever hours we gain on 740 is to the advantage of all the ethnic groups because we need to serve all the ethnic groups.

5202 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Did you have anything to add, Mr. Oakes, on the study?

5203 MR. DAVID OAKES: Yes.

5204 This is from a researcher's standpoint. I am delighted by the study. Every so often I have to take a look at ethnic statistics and there are precious few in this area. Look at the make-up of this city in terms of ethnicity. This is a random probability sample of 1,000 ethnic respondents representative of all groups.

5205 And one of the major problems that I have with ethnic clients is they are not measured by BBM. So it's very difficult sometimes to try to figure out what their audience is. This should sure helps. It also goes a little bit more in depth about some of the areas for ethnic broadcast -- I am sure, I think, all broadcasters can take a look at this and profit by it.

5206 It shows you without a strong feel for the culture that people simply drift away from it, and they develop what I call an "ethnic generation gap." I have known this has existed for years. It is just now I can put a quantitative number to it.

5207 I think it is an excellent survey the way it was conducted. It sure is representative of the population as a whole in ethnic areas. It sure gives us enough data to take a look at what these people want. By-and-large, it was designed to determine the likelihood of tuning a bilingual format.

5208 I had preconceived notions about the you results when they came out. It changed my view a little bit about bilingual programming. I think that -- especially if you look at the Italian community -- they are less likely than a number of other groups to tune bilingual programming. But I think that represents a symptom of the problem the Italian community has. They have been here for a quite a while. It is very easy for subsequent generations to become English-Canadian and four generations later, when they are asked by StatsCan how would you describe yourself in terms of ethnicity, they will say, I am Canadian.

5209 So they will completely lose that wonderful feel and all the beautiful aspects of the culture that they grew up with. I think that looking at that, it's a challenge to meet people. I think the bilingual programming is, for the Italian community, the only hope. You cannot program in a third language to subsequent generations of Italians and hope to get them to tune.

5210 So I think it's a wonderful survey, and for me provides a beautiful database for a number of years in the future.

5211 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Last general question on the study. Do you have any sense of people who are mother tongue English of non-ethnic background especially from these ethnic groups who may be interested in this channel -- I mean in this station?

5212 MR. DAVID OAKES: Well, you raise a really interesting question. Will it attract non-ethnic English speaking people? Yes, it will.

5213 I think simply by chance, in a way, they will be going through the dial, and come upon it and perhaps stay on it because it is English and it's something they don't know. If they are not part of an ethnic group, it's quite often very difficult for them to find out when programming is on and what it's about. If they listen to -- let's say CHIN was licensed to 740 and they are tuning the dial and hit on 740 and heard a very compelling speaker talking in English about things Italian, they may stay; if they hear music in Italian, they may stay.

5214 Marketing to non-ethnics is very difficult because word of mouth in the ethnic communities is a big issue. It is not in the non-ethnic communities. So it's harder for them, if they are predisposed, to hear some of this programming. It is hard for them to go to right to what they want to hear. And very few people will phone up a radio station and ask, which is very unfortunate.

5215 MS ARVINDER SAHOTA: If I could just add to that based on my own personal experience at CHIN FM, I have had many a time when I have opened up the lines and I have received calls from members of communities who have nothing do with the South Asian community. They were simply surfing the radio stations. I was speaking in English. They stopped. They listened. I was able to engage them into the program and generate enough interest for them to actually pick up the phone and call me and ask me to give a more detailed explanation about what is exactly happening on my program because they have never heard anything like before.

5216 And what that indicates to me is that, yes, there is definitely a very big interest outside of the relevant community to that program. I think it is reflected in the fact that here in Canada everyday we promote multiculturalism. And I think the answer to multiculturalism lies in the English language.

5217 I am sure up in Ottawa celebrating Canada Day, as an example, you have witnessed many different ethnic groups performing their various folklore dances. And if you have ever asked yourself this question, I wish someone would take 30 seconds to explain in English a little bit about exactly what we are watching, that you would understand that there is a great interest, but there is also a very big need to build a bridge to make that understanding complete. That understanding also needs to be addressed in the culture itself. If I can expand further I would love to explain to you why our South Asian community, our programming at CHIN has become so successful.

5218 I began at CHIN Radio eight years ago and, as mentioned earlier by Mr. Lombardi, at that time South Asian programming was based in third language. I recognized a need, being second generation myself, for some form of communication to hold me and keep me engaged to my culture through language. I can understand the language, I can now speak the language, but at that time it was very difficult for me. And because I couldn't speak the language, I feared it.

5219 Did I didn't want to speak it for fear of ridicule both by my own parents in the house and also by other members of the community. So I shied away from it. But at the same time, unless you can realize where you come from, where our ancestors have come from and why they have come here to this country, we can't recognize ourselves. We can't become positive role models. We can't become better community members. It is very important for us to keep alive the multiculturalism. It is what Canada is based upon. We founded the United Nations. We have a lot of things to be very proud of.

5220 The reason why the program works is because I was allowed, through CHIN Radio and through Mr. Johnny Lombardi, the opportunity to experiment in South Asian programming. What we did in essence because English is my first language, we incorporated English into the South Asian programming. At the same time we never lost sight of the third language base. Earlier one of the Commissioners had asked the question, what is Hindustani, what is the language? He received a very detailed explanation. I would like to give you a very simplistic explanation.

5221 If we were to take the English language and parallel it to Edwardian language, the language that Shakespeare spoke, you would have the route of the Hindu language, a very high upper class language. If you were to ask me what then is Hindustani language, I would say to you it is the equivalent of a common day English language, what you hear in the houses, how we speak to each other.

5222 If I spoke to you in a Shakespearean language, I would be speaking English, but you would have a very difficult time understanding me. The same is equivalent between the Hindi language and Hindistani.

5223 It is true that by speaking Hindustani, we also reach many other ethnic groups and we have to recognize that in India itself, we are dealing with a variety of cultures and languages from one area. Every state has its own language and every culture has it diversion of it.

5224 English is the bond between everyone. In India itself, English is becoming more and more a very common spoken language. The Internet believe it or not has just arrived in India and what it means for South Asians over there is that they are able now to communicate and to surf on the World Wide Web, but in order to do it, they now need to have English in their vocabulary. It doesn't mean that they lose their culture.

5225 On our South Asian programming we are able to freely converse between English and the languages of our callers. On my show specifically, I have many listeners who come from Pakistan and they speak Urdu. At the same time, I have many listeners from India, they speak Hindustani. But at the same time, I have listeners from Sri Lanka speak a very different language; from Bangladesh, completely different language; from the Caribbean islands; from Canada; from all cross the world. And the way I am able to communicate with everyone is through English.

5226 We do need to retain the third language for the first generation who are not very comfortable with English, but we need to realize that second and third generation also need a comfortable format in order to be able to actively participate in their culture. English is the medium that provides it to them.

5227 The wonderful thing about the programming when I open up my phone lines is that I will have not one person calling, being someone in their forties or their thirties, I will have an entire family engaging in the show. Very often the children will be on the phone lines trying to answer my trivia questions, but the parents are right beside them, and you can here them actually asking their father and mother to give them the answer to the question.

5228 The reason why it has taken off in the way that it has is because South Asians now realize that before, if we had kept the format in third-base the second and third generation would initially lose interest and eventually, as David mentioned earlier, die out from the culture.

5229 By incorporating English, we have now given an opportunity to keep our culture very much alive. The music itself is a very basic format that allows everyone to engage in the show. The beauty of music, as we mentioned earlier, is that it knows no barriers, it knows no boundaries. All that music does is generated an interest. Shakespeare said it himself, "If music be the food of love, play on, and give me excess of it." I am sure you have also heard the phrase: that music soothes the savage beast.

5230 But if you were my neighbour -- and my festival of Divali, which is the Festival of Lights, which in essence is our New Years -- if you were my neighbour and I was celebrating Divali in October, and I did not speak English, and I was outside lighting fireworks, you would come running out thinking a mad woman and I am about to burn down your house! You would not understand what's going on. Because don't understand, you would be fearful, and fearful leads to hatred and misunderstanding.

5231 The same think applies in my own house. If I am not able to converse with my children, they too won't understand what is going on and they will join my neighbours in thinking that I have gone completely crazy, and they won't want to know anything that I am doing.

5232 But if I recognize that by adding English into my vocabulary, that I am giving an opportunity for you as my neighbour to now come over and say, "Why are you lighting these fireworks?" and to explain that it is my New Years Eve, that I am now opening the door and allowing you also to come and share in my culture.

5233 And the same is on the reverse side too. Before our program every week night is the Italian show; after our show, we are followed by the Greek programming; and at any given time, I will have Italian callers calling me and they will state, "I'm an Italian listener, I was listening to the Italian show, I am still listening to CHIN FM because you are speaking English and I find your music to be very interesting."

5234 The same is also reflected these days in the music itself when we take a look at what is happening in music. Many songs are now coming out incorporating the English language. English has definitely become the basic language of world, I think the Internet only strengthens that.

5235 I think by having an opportunity to realize that in the '60s, Mr. Johnny Lombardi had a dream and a vision and he recognized that a service was needed for third-base language and to have the CRTC acknowledge that showed great trust and great interest in our culture.

5236 And now, at the turn of the century, we come to you and we say, we don't want to lose the third-base language as there is a need for it, but at the same time we have to recognize that we are not dealing with first immigration any more. We are now dealing with second, third, and fourth. In order to also keep them in the culture, we have to recognize that we must provide a format and a service that they find comfortable. That is English.

5237 As for the new immigrants who arrive every day, they would be not losing out on their culture because we still would be broadcasting in third-based languages as well, we just need to expand and be able to further the ethnic services.

5238 At the same time, we also to need to remember that new immigrants also have a great interest in being able to integrate into our society. We offer them ESL classes, English as a Second Language, as an example. By speaking a bit of English on our programming, we are giving them an opportunity to get more familiar with the language. If they don't feel proficient enough to speak in English, they can call in their language and the host will be able to converse back and forth.

5239 So it's a beautiful formula that works on many different levels. And I guess one way I could really sum it up for you, which is a true story, is that every day on my show I love to use an English phrase or word that I know my listeners perhaps will not be familiar with. One such phrase that I threw at my listeners was supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. And that phrase gives me a lot of amusement because I have had little kids tell me that their grandparents can't speak English but they can say to them supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. And the beauty behind it is that a bridge is now formed in the family; the bridge is formed in the community; and the bridge is formed in Canada, as well, through all societies celebrated our multiculturalism.

5240 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

5241 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I just wanted to add here -- I wanted to congratulate Mr. Darshin Sahota. Would you stand up sir, please?

5242 He came here 30 years ago and he is the father of the young lady who just spoke. He is proud of his daughter. But you know what? I am as proud as he is to have Arvinder Sahota as one of our partnership and associate producers in the East Asian programming. And she's an example of all the other producers we have. I wish we could have all of them here today and they could all talk as eloquently as Arvinder, I'm sure. So having said that, I pass now to Lenny.

5243 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you.

5244 I just want to make one comment with regard to Arvinder's statement. All this enthusiasm and passion for the kind of programming that we are talking about is from approximately six hours a week. That's the amount of programming time that we can afford to dedicate to this type of format. You can see how important it is to the community. That is the basis of our request for 740.

5245 This community needs more bilingual programming. In order to achieve that, we need a new service to provide more programming. We can't disenfranchise our existing listeners to increase the hours of English-based or bilingual programming to satisfy the hunger in this community for second and third generation.

5246 I just quickly add that this is what has happened in the Italian community over the years. We haven't had that opportunity -- or that community hasn't had that opportunity in the second and third generations to enjoy programming with us and, in effect, had been slowly disenfranchised and distanced themselves from radio services and the community.

5247 It is our hope and intent to repatriate those listeners and bring them back with bilingual programming. We believe we can be very successful.

5248 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just take you a back to some much less passionate questions as I apologised for but to pick up on your last point, you talk about repatriating listeners. Where do you see your new station drawing listeners from? Where do they go now?

5249 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, it varies. With respect to Italian, with our second and third generation Italian listeners, they generally gravitate to top 40 dance formats. In fact, there are some stations now in Toronto that claim to have a high population of Italo-Canadians listening to their stations. That very well may be true, but interestingly enough, though, that speaks nothing the culture that these kids are coming from. They are just gravitating to a source of music that, in effect, just offers the dance club or club culture.

5250 If there were a service that spoke to their needs for culture would they give this frequency a chance? We think absolutely. We think that they would. Many of the listeners who aren't tuning to CHIN right now are just scanning the radio services and getting the information and entertainment they need.

5251 I think a lot of the listeners would want to listen to CHIN. In fact, I give you an example with regard to our special events and concerts and showcases at places like the CHIN picnic, Canada's Wonderland, and theatrical troops. We bring in top entertainers from Italy and they generally skew to a very young audience and our theatres are full. Our picnic is packed. Canada's Wonderland is closing the doors.

5252 Are those kids listening to us? No. But the desire for access to the music, the desire to participate in a cultural event that helps define who they are is very, very powerful and strong. Perhaps our greatest vehicle for reaching that generation is through our bilingual television program on CITY Television. We notice that there is a tremendous feedback from young Italo-Canadians.

5253 With regard to south Asia and Spanish community, I think they are a growing community right now. And I think there is a real desire for more programming in general. We think they are going to be best served with bilingual programming.

5254 MR. DAVID OAKES: If I could add something from the survey that I found fascinating. If you look at ethnic radio listeners, the average hours tuned per week are somewhere around 15 for 18+ ethnic. If you look at non-ethnic 18+, it is about 10 hours higher. So I suspect with the bilingual programming, you are going to see new hours tuned by ethnic radio listeners brought into the market.

5255 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I just take you to the number of languages that you are planning to serve? What I note is you are looking at the number of hours of bilingual programming is 60 and the number of hours of third language programming is 64, which would be sort of 50 per cent plus one of 126. So this is within -- our new ethnic policy requires an ethnic station to be 60 per cent ethnic, 50 per cent at least third language. So what you are looking at is something like 50 per cent third language and more like 100 ethnic. Is what you would call...?

5256 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That's correct.

5257 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5258 The study you did focused on four language groups. Do you have a sense of what other language groups may be interested in bilingual services down the road or do you think you would want to do other languages in a bilingual context in the future?

5259 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: That depends on so many variables. At this point in time, we are committed to the four languages groups that we are programmed to. The Conquest survey revealed a great desire for bilingual programming in the Chinese community for example.

5260 Why we chose not to add bilingual programming in a Chinese community is based on current market conditions, the amount of programming already available to that community, the impact of additional services on other ethnic radio stations, and the relative first generation -- the size of the first generation in Toronto right now. The majority of that population is first generation. For all of those reasons we decided not to add significant programming. But that's a community that might be interested or could be interested in programming. At this stage of our development we are not contemplating that.

5261 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We are going to financial questions and these are getting significantly more dry. I just have to take a second and thank you Ms Sahota for your passionate testimony. I feel bad about switching gears but I don't want to let you feel that I didn't hear you very clearly.

5262 I have a question with regard to the allocation of your expenses and revenues at the current stations CHIN AM and FM. As I understand in the past you have allocated the costs in a 75:25 split between AM and FM and you now are going to a 50:50 split.

5263 MR. BOB CULLITON: That's correct.

5264 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the reason for that is?

5265 MR. BOB CULLITON: Well, in the past we always filed a combined AM and FM CRTC return. They asked us to break it out and we arbitrarily took 75:25. Subsequent to that, in the last year, the actual revenues you see on CHIN AM and FM are exact as they go on the air. And they relate fairly closely to the expenses if we split them 50:50. So we used the expenses split 50:50, but the revenues are the actual revenues as projected or earned on the stations.

5266 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With regard to the new AM that you are applying for, in your Year 5, you are looking at significant local time sales as compared to the average time sales for an Ontario ethnic station. Am I correct to say that it is significantly higher and could you tell me how you come to that projection?

5267 MR. BOB CULLITON: Are we looking at the $3,767,000?

5268 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's right.

5269 MR. BOB CULLITON: Well, the first year, we put in our application at $2.6 million. We just increased it by 5 per cent over the subsequent years. So that's just a 5 per cent compounded on each of the languages and the Italian market.

5270 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you tell me your rational for switching your Italian programming to a new FM -- to the new station that you are applying for -- which is currently on CHIN AM? I notice in the public interventions Paul Dorio(ph) from Villa Columbo talked about Italian seniors being spread out a lot further. Is that the kind of reasoning you are looking at as to why you want to switch Italian to this new station?

5271 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Precisely the reason. The growth of the Italian community, in particular, has spread to the west and to the north and it's virtually underserved, very poorly served by our 1540 --

5272 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And CHIN doesn't get to those areas properly?

5273 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: No. Due to low power protection to stations in the south, we are virtually unheard in and those areas.

5274 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what will take up those hours at CHIN AM?

5275 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I can just tell off the top of my head, there is one hour of Chinese; a three hour bracket of Portugese programming -- here we go -- one block of Polish; an hour of Jewish; a little bit of repositioning with the afternoon block -- the programs that already exist on 1540 and finally, an additional four hours daily of Caribbean programming. That's the result of moving that Italian block to 740.

5276 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And do you anticipate any changes on your FM station as a result if you were to be granted this licence?

5277 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: No, Commissioner Cardozo, we do not.

5278 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5279 If it's okay with you, I would like to proceed with some more questions. I don't have too many more, I know we are, sort of, running well into the lunch hour but if you are okay, I would like to press on for --

5280 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Absolutely.

5281 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can we look at some of the expenditures? The expenditures for the programming for the new station would be considerably lower than the average for Ontario ethnic stations. Is that correct?

5282 MR. BOB CULLITON: That's correct. I could maybe talk to that.

5283 We have a program where we have our associated producers work hand-in-hand with us, as Mr. Lombardi explained earlier. We supply the administration, the buildings, the collections, everything else that goes with it. The producer supplies the program, the program content, the announcers, et cetera.

5284 So we share the revenues -- maybe not 50:50 in all cases, but we do share them -- so we would show -- the revenue we are sharing would be really taking the programming costs that they have to hire their people in and et cetera. But we show that under sales and advertising and promotion as a commission.

5285 So therefore if we looked at the sales and advertising and promotion budget, it's quite a bit higher because we -- let's use the word 50 per cent, so 50 per cent of the revenues raised by the producers goes into that account rather than into programming.

5286 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So your sales promotion and administration for the new station is higher than the average? My sense of that too is lower or you can tell me what the figures are.

5287 MR. BOB CULLITON: We illustrated these figures because wanted to show to the Commission that there is a large synergy and economics of scale and scope saved between AM and FM. Therefore, there are savings by having the station 740.

5288 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

5289 Now, you talked about the impact on your stations if we were not to license this application, but were to licence another ethnic service.

5290 Can you elaborate on what you think would be the effect on the your current advertising revenues?

5291 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I'll take that question. Just for clarification, if another ethnic service is licensed?

5292 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.

5293 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, we have discussed this at length at our offices. We do have concerns if another ethnic service is licensed. That service would necessarily be a stand-alone service as the only other application here before you is Infinity, and it is in stand-alone. And it is different from our concept because we don't see ourselves as a stand-alone.

5294 But the issues really are the kinds of programming and the total vision of a particular broadcaster. We do have concerns with the amount of programming time that would be directed to the South Asian community and the net effect that it will have on the existing producers.

5295 And I look to comparisons: the most recent ethnic licence of Fairchild. We did see some net changes in the broadcasting playing field with respect to Chinese programming. Services who were in the business of broadcasting in the Chinese language stopped in that business when Fairchild was licensed soon after. We expect the same to occur if another ethnic licence proposing this type of format were to come into effect.

5296 How would it affect CHIN Radio? We'll survive. We will find a way to continue doing what we do best.

5297 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You indicate that CHIN FM would have to respond to another ethnic service by increasing your promotion and programming initiatives. Could you tell us what a you have in mind?

5298 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, any new ethnic service that comes on to the playing field in today's market is most certainly going be targeting some of the key language groups. We would then need to step up our marketing initiatives and promotion initiatives and work to save and preserve audience to create more reason to tune to CHIN. I mean, just the competitive edge will increase that much more.

5299 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, let me take this competitive edge issue and flip it around because it's something that we pay some attention to. It is not the sole governing factor in our decision, but the flip side of it is that if you get a third station and you are a three-station combo versus other existing ethnic one-station combo -- if you can call it that -- what is the kind of effect on them of you having three stations and should we with be concerned about that?

5300 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, that is an interesting question with a complex answer.

5301 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for saying that. It's the second time someone said interesting question. Our job is to ask interesting questions --

--- Laughter / Rires

5302 And you get extra points when you recognize it --

--- Laughter / Rires

5303 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, getting back to that interesting question...

5304 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I would like to add something to this --

5305 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: He who hesitates, Mr. Cardozo, is lost.

5306 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Recall that when we first started almost 35 years ago, we did over 30 languages and all the big languages that are revenue producers were small languages at that time. I am talk about Chinese, Portuguese, et cetera, and they grew.

5307 We feel that if another station doing ethnic were to come into the market, they would immediately not only eat into revenues, but they also raid our people. Because you look around and all the ethnic licenses that have been issued since we got ours 33 years ago, you will find that all the owners and all the producers and all the operators and DJs that are working at the ethnic stations, 75 per cent -- which includes also television -- came from CHIN.

5308 We school everybody. We experiment. We do all the teaching. We do everything. Then, when a new licence comes into the market, they immediately -- and they go over to some of our people, some of them do leave because they are promised shares or something or whatever, but the majority -- just look around -- did come from us. That is another concern of ours too. We will be raided by a new station coming in who will need operators. We have got about 15 of them. I am sure that two or three or four of them will leave and the same thing applies with producers, same thing applies with engineers -- no matter who you talking to. It leaves the ethnic market a little chaotic for a while until things settle.

5309 But I still think that the fact that we are doing something different with 740 means, I believe, that we in the public interest are doing something that is needed and is not being done, and we can't do it with the stations that with have got now.

5310 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Could I also add that the three-station combo is not really at the expense of any of our existing broadcasting licensees in the market place. If you exam our program schedule, it provides for minimal overlap. In fact, the economic engine that is driving 740 is our Italian programming. And we have integrated really small blocks of additional programming throughout our programming schedule for the specific purpose of having the least amount of programming and financial impact on the existing broadcasters.

5311 In fact, if you look at the program schedules there is tremendous amounts of programming out there and if licensed, we wouldn't increase programming levels to such a point as the complexion of current broadcasting schedules should change. And the fact is that we have indicated in our written submission, we would be prepared to enter into appropriate conditions of licence to back that up.

5312 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Did you consider when you were putting this proposal together looking at the other AM or FM that other people are applying for in this hearing or any other frequencies?

5313 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: No, we have heard the question asked all weekend and no we have not looked at any other.

5314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What are your thoughts about the weaknesses of 740 -- and I understand what you were saying earlier, Mr. Lombardi, about reaching out further -- to what extent would your listeners in this proposal be closer to the downtown area where I understand there are problems with 740, which was the basis of the last round of hearings?

5315 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, the fact that that is addressed with our program schedule, in particular with the Italian programming where most of our listeners are certainly not in the downtown core and because of our sister stations CHIN AM 1540, in particular, you know, we do have access to the downtown core and those communities that we try to serve through that frequency.

5316 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask about, I guess, your AM transmitter on the Toronto Island and whether that is facing the same kind of concern that Charles had discussed yesterday?

5317 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, I'm glad you asked that question.

5318 I was here at the hearings yesterday and noted that Mr. Elder was under the impression that the CHIN transmitter site on the Island was somehow under some different jurisdiction and that we weren't facing the same circumstances as the Fairchild operation.

5319 In fact, we aren't in another jurisdiction and we don't expect and will not be treated any differently than Fairchild and certainly couldn't expect Fairchild to be treated any differently than CHIN. Our sites are virtually side-by-side and we have been there for almost 20 years and they have been there for a lot longer.

5320 I would like to point out one thing, though, with respect to their concerns. We have been in negotiations or discussions with the city in regard to renewing our lease and have certainly not been given any indication there is a reluctancy on their part to go further on those negotiations. Furthermore, we have had a lease with the city for 20 years. I noted we pulled it out of the file in 1981 or 1982 and we signed it, there was no condition of renewal on that document. And we signed a lease for an additional eight years subsequent to that lease.

5321 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So in what regard -- I just want to clarify with regard to your AM transmitter -- you are not concerned that you will have to move that off Toronto Island in the next year or so.

5322 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: No, we have not been given any indication formally or otherwise by the city that that lease would not be regarded or negotiations couldn't be entered into in the future at this point in time. And we are not concerned about this at this point.

5323 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

5324 I have the one more question, the compelling reasons question, for you which we will come back to in a couple of minutes and give you a chance to summarize. I will just ask Madam Chair or counsel if they have questions.

5325 THE CHAIRPERSON: So Mr. Lombardi, this is not in anyway a pre-emptive move to ensure that you remain with two frequencies, your plans medium-term, short-term, are to program on three frequencies?

5326 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, Madam Chair. That's our intention here. We are not thinking or looking down the future because we see a threat in our lease on Toronto Island.

5327 THE CHAIRPERSON: When is your current lease expiring.

5328 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: It expires exactly the same day as Fairchild: December 31, 2001.

5329 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was given to understand that it was later.

5330 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: No, Madam Chair, it expires on the same date and year.

5331 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I don't think Mr. Elder is interpreting the conditions properly. He cannot speak for CHIN.

5332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Neither you for him, no doubt.

5333 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI:  And we can't speak for the other group.

5334 We certainly feel confident that the city is looking for more money. You have got to take into consideration that after 20 years on a piece of land that is considered prime, certainly they are not, how would you say, warm to the idea of charging the same rate of rental that existed 20 years ago and then carry it on for another 20 years. I really believe it is all political. They are looking for more money. All landlords always try to get more money and I don't think the city is any different.

5335 But I just don't feel that we are going to be -- 1430 and CHIN are going knocked off. We are facing the same conditions, the same date of renewal. So whatever is going to 1430 will happen to CHIN. Whatever happens to CHIN, will happen to 1430. I don't think they will divide us. And we will do everything to help out 1430 and, at the same time, be helping ourselves.

5336 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lombardi, this is a very competitive hearing, of course, on the basis of frequencies as well. I am curious to know, in your view, is 1540 a weaker frequency than 1430 because of its limitation at night?

5337 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I didn't hear the question.

5338 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am curious to know whether -- you have mentioned 1540's weakness because of protection at night. I believe, am I right, that the Commission has given you permission to correct in some ways or to some extent this difficulty with an additional transmitter. Is that correct?

5339 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: Yes. I am sorry, you can answer that.

5340 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Madam Chair, yes, we have been licensed for a low power FM repeater from Mississauga.

5341 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I gather from reading the material that you don't feel that this is a complete correction to the night time decrease in power.

5342 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes, that's right.

5343 THE CHAIRPERSON: So my question to Mr. Lombardi was: Is it your view that 1430 is a more appealing frequency than 1540? Suppose you were more popular with the city than Fairchild and they -- we have frequencies available right now, many demands for them and presumably in the public interest we try to see our way to allowing as much diversity and service as possible for the public.

5344 So suppose that Fairchild could not negotiate itself with the city and you could, would 1430 be a better frequency for you than 1540 and can it be transmitted from -- I suspect if your transmitters are one beside the other, although I am not an engineer, that 1430 could be used. Do you know what I mean?

5345 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Yes.

5346 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are just trying to see what are the possibilities here. Fairchild has applied for 740 and have told us they can't renew their lease. You say you can renew yours, you don't foresee any problems.

5347 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Well, Madam Chair --

5348 THE CHAIRPERSON: Suppose that were to occur?

5349 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: I would like to answer it in this way. I am sure the city officials of this great city recognize the tremendous benefits and achievements that the communities at both Fairchild and CHIN radio broadcast to and wouldn't want to do anything to dismantle, disrupt, or shut down those services. I mean, virtually millions of people would be lost -- would lose very, very services.

5350 I believe that this is a people issue with regard to what is happening on the Island right now. And I believe that because it is a people issue, it can be handled properly through the proper political channels. Where there is a will there is a way.

5351 Now if the city has some serious difficulties with providing that transmitter site location for both Fairchild and CHIN -- first of all, I don't believe that they can look at us differently. They would have to treat us exactly the same. I think the perception among the communities would be devastating if they did that. If they said to Fairchild, "You must leave, but CHIN you stay."

5352 More than that, if there is a people problem with that particular location for those transmitter sites, I am sure that the city will work with both Fairchild and CHIN to find a suitable solution that is satisfactory to all of us, including the people that have a concern on the Toronto Island. I have no doubt in my mind that there is a solution there. It is a big island. There are other possibilities for relocation there. There are a number of options to be pursued. The last ultimate thing that we could possibly conceive is the "what if" scenario if we actually have to shut it down. We are not talking about a developer who owns a plot of land and has a multi-million dollar project that he wants to build and is insensitive to broadcasters needs. We are talking about the City of Toronto. We are talking about millions of votes.

5353 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I'm talk about the fact that whoever has 740 is not going to be quite as devastated by a negative outcome than the party who doesn't.

5354 Mr. Lombardi, I sense that if you have some spare time you could get yourself a good consulting job here.

--- Laughter / Rires

5355 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: With regard to your other question, which was very interesting and one that we actually did contemplate, if the wildest scheme of things: Fairchild could not negotiate a position and CHIN was successful in negotiating where they couldn't and the Commission, in their wisdom licensed CHIN Radio, AM 740, we would consider flipping the licence to Fairchild.

5356 I don't want you to get the impression at all that this is our thinking or that this has any relevance to the city's position at this point. I just want you to realize that we are a fair -- and if something like this were to happen and we saw an unfair circumstance like that then we would be willing to adjust the situation. We wouldn't want to put the Commission in this "what if" scenario and that somehow affects your -- we want you to judge our application on its merits. But if this is a real concern and you think that we have an advantage over Fairchild, we would seek to find a balance for that as well.

5357 THE CHAIRPERSON: The problem, of course, is the Commission is always told that this is the last chance, last frequency and presumably tries to make its decisions on that basis, understanding as well that the future will bring a day when all these complications will disappear and whoever has frequencies will then have an audience or a chance to keep an audience or to improve it.

5358 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: And I agree with you. I think digital broadcasting is closer than we think. I also believe that the city then can see the light at the end of the tunnel and, say, if they have a problem, they say: Well, look, digital broadcasting is coming. Let's look at this on a short-term basis, a five-year basis. Let's see how we can work closer and faster towards...And maybe that would be the impetus for both Fairchild and CHIN Radio to encourage the use of digital receivers within our own market.

5359 My father will tell the story when he was licensed for FM back in 1967, there wasn't a single FM receiver in Toronto. So he purchased truckloads of them from overseas --

5360 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: From Japan.

5361 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: And gave them away in the supermarket. I mean, we are not going to do something like that. But, if we have to make an effort to meet a deadline because of conditions on the Island, we will work very hard to get digital receivers out on the market.

5362 We are broadcasting digitally right now. I don't know if Fairchild is. But if Fairchild has a need, they will do it too. And that is a reasonable solution. If the city can recognize that there is light at the end of the tunnel, I think that's a reasonable one.

5363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lombardi, I thought you thought you had a broadcasting son, I think I think his consulting career is rising by the minute.

5364 MR. JOHNNY LOMBARDI: I am very proud of my son and my two daughters.

5365 I would just like to add something here. With digital in the future -- and a lot of things are forgotten here -- there is a comradeship between broadcasters, always has been. And as my son articulated there, if something should happen, it's going to happen to both of us and we will help each other. We don't want to see 1430 disappear. We don't want 1540 to disappear. We do want 740. We are going into a second, third, fourth generation concept.

5366 But remember that the city is a very, very complex situation and there are a lot of votes there, the politicians vote one way, vote the other. I have gone through this so many times in my life. Don't forget, I moved from Mississauga, when I bought the shares from Ted Rogers, we were a daytime station only in Mississauga. Mississauga then threatened to expropriate our station if we didn't move the towers. Everybody said, "Uh, oh, 1540 has to go off the air -- There is no way..." because nobody would give us anything near Toronto, but we finally persevered and we got this spot on the Island after haggling, maybe, for three years. But we finally got it.

5367 And, now, there might be a chance -- I don't know -- that we may have to find another place. But the cost of moving from Mississauga to the Island was over $3 million for us. We could ill afford at that time that kind of money, but we found the money to move because wanted to be broadcasters.

5368 And I think the same thing applies with any other broadcaster. If you forced to make a move, you have got to find an alternative place and you don't just listen to one doctor or one engineer, you get two or three or four advices. That is the way to do things. That is what I do. If I have got an ailment of some kind, I don't take the advice of one doctor, I go and talk to three or four. And I do the same thing with engineers.

5369 THE CHAIRPERSON: It seems to have worked well.

--- Laughter / Rires

5370 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lombardi, I see Mr. Chan is here. So, in reply, we will find out whether you have a job as a consultant!

--- Laughter / Rires

5371 THE CHAIRPERSON: And before we adjourn, we will give you the usual five minutes to tell us why among the number of applicants who want 740, we should give it to you.

5372 MR. LENNY LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. I hope we have had an opportunity here to illuminate our vision for a new service here in Toronto on AM 740. We feel very, very strongly in our commitment to this bilingual format. We see this as the evolution of ethnic broadcasting today in the Year 2000.

5373 If ethnic programming is to grow and to flourish and to become meaningful to second and third generation ethnic members of our community, a service like this is needed now.

5374 We have seen the evolution and we have seen the distancing of some community members in our communities that we presently serve. We feel it is vitally important to continue the service.

5375 And we can't dabble with bilingual programming. It is not something that we can do -- I mean, we are experimenting with the inclusion of the English language on some services as Arvinder so eloquently put, but that is the extent of what we can do. To try and do any more would be at the expense of the existing programs that we have. And the existing programs that we have are third language. They are serving a very valuable need to these communities. To change those to rearrange schedules, to reject those programs or to convert them into bilingual programs would be an upheaval of listenership, of advertisers, and of producers. It is not something that we think is healthy for our radio station nor for the communities that we serve.

5376 We have looked at program schedule as a combined effort. We have been able to provide complementary services. We haven't injected a tremendous amount of new programming, but the programming that we have is well placed with minimal overlap and is complementary of the existing service that are presently available on the stations.

5377 So we don't foresee a financial impact on any of the stations to any great degree. Nor do we see any lost listenership to any of the radio stations that are currently on the air. If you study our program it is very, very minimal in its overlap and well integrated into the existing formats.

5378 740 speaks directly to our technical problems at 1540, the ones they have plagued us from the very beginning of being blessed with this licence. We have struggled to correct them and find a solution to these technical problems.

5379 740 finally addresses one of our major concerns of having to power down at sunset and sunrise. During the nighttime hours -- and you know how dark it gets here in the winter months in Toronto -- that we are off the air, virtually off the air, in our key market area at quarter to five at night and we are not full powered until a quarter to eight. How does a radio station survive? It is a miracle. I asked my father how we did it when we don't have a said morning drive and solid afternoon drive because of our limitations. 740 addresses that.

5380 And finally our common ownership we believe is wonderful thing. It is healthy for ethnic broadcasters, it is healthy for CHIN, it affords us a greater opportunity to provide a greater diversity of broadcasting. We can reposition programs on 1540, providing additional service to communities that are anxious and willing to hear additional programs.

5381 Our Canadian talent developments, we are extremely proud of our past history and are extremely excited about the opportunity to make significant impact at the development of Canadian talent.

5382 You know, we pledged $100,000 of which $50,000 is direct through contribution. $50,000 is going to be a hands on for CHIN to create and develop and produce recordings that will be part of our catalogue. Until such a time as it is a stand-alone entity and then we will distance ourselves from it and be -- and have it run by a third parties -- but it's going to take a broadcaster like us to actually take it off the ground, to actually take the great talent that we see every single day in all of our activities and get it on record and make these productions.

5383 So in conclusion, we at CHIN Radio are extremely proud of our track record and what we have been able to accomplish in the 34 years of ethnic broadcasting. Our new bilingual format is futuristic. It is forward-thinking. We think it's going to be the symbol of new programming to come. We hope that you see that vision in our application and grant us this licence.

5384 Thank you very much.

5385 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr. Lombardi and family. We will see you again on this early next week. As the world of difficulties unfold, unravel or get resolved.

5386 We will adjourn for the day. We will resume at nine o'clock on Monday morning. In order for parties to have some idea of how we will proceed next week, we will begin of course with Phase II, which is the applicants' intervening against each other.

5387 We will then proceed first with the three interveners who happen to bring in more than one application and hear them once. So that will be CIRPA, and then Dufferin Communications, and CIRCA Radio. After that, intervenors in support will be heard in the order in which the application in which the intervene was heard. Therefore, we will begin on Monday in Phase III after the three intervenors I mentioned with the intervenors in CHWO's application.

5388 So, if that is helpful, so you know how we will proceed on Monday. We hope everyone has a good weekend. Don't go near that Island!

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1331

to resume on Monday, February 7, 2000 at 0900 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1331 pour reprendre

le lundi 7 février 2000 à 0900