TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/
DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 3, 2000 le 3 février 2000
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Broadcasting Applications and Licences/
Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente
M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère
J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller
R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller
C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
P. Cussons Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et
D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 3, 2000 le 3 février 2000
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
Preliminary matters 829
Questions by the Commission 848
Fairchild Radio (Toronto) Ltd. 902
Questions by the Commission 910
Questions by Commission Counsel 941
Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
--- Upon resuming on Thursday, February 3, 2000
at 0903 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
3 février 2000 à 0903
4009 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order please.
4010 Mr. Secretary, please.
4011 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
4012 Before I introduce our first applicant, I thought
perhaps there were a couple of matters of business I would just review for
4013 Today our plan is to hear applications by Arnold
Auguste, Fairchild Radio and St. Sava's Radio.
4014 Tomorrow we will hear applications by 914258 Ontario
Limited and Radio 1540 Limited. That is the extent of our business for
4015 Phase II, where applicants intervene to one another's
proposals, will start on Monday morning at nine o'clock.
4016 One other matter I would just like to mention. If we
could ask people to switch on their own microphones when they are speaking and,
very important, to please switch them off when you are not speaking. Thank
4017 It is now my pleasure to introduce our first
application today by Arnold A. Auguste on behalf of a company to be incorporated
for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English-language FM radio programming
undertaking at Toronto.
4018 The new station would operate on frequency 93.5 MHz,
channel 228A, with an effective radiated power of 240 watts, and with a
transmitter at Toronto/Hornby that would operate on frequency 740 kHz with
a transmitter power of 50,000 watts.
4019 The applicant is proposing a rhythm and blues/black
urban dance music format.
4020 The Commission notes that this application is
technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing
for the use of the 93.5 MHz and 740 kHz frequencies.
4021 We have Mr. Auguste and his colleagues.
4022 Mr. Auguste.
4023 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
4024 MR. AUGUSTE: Thank you very much.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4025 MR. AUGUSTE: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of
the Commission, members of the staff, ladies and gentlemen in the
4026 Madam Chair, this morning I am really proud of the
team I have with me and I would like to introduce them at this time.
4027 On my right is Mrs. June Veecock. Mrs. Veecock is one
of my nominations to the board of directors. She is the Director of Human Rights
and Anti-Racism Initiatives for the Ontario Federation of Labour. I'm really
pleased to have her as part of my team.
4028 Sitting on my left is Mr. J. Robert Wood. He is one
of my partners. I am very pleased to have him on my team also, a gentleman that
brings a lot of talent. Hopefully, we will have a chance to have him use that
4029 Next to him is Daniel Caudeiron. Daniel has been a
friend of mine and a colleague for more than 22 years. He will serve as the
director of Canadian talent development if we are licensed. He also brings a
wealth of experience in the field of music.
4030 In the back row we have Mrs. Cheryl Haughton. Cheryl
has been my Director of Marking and Administration and the person who continues
to play a key role in the running of my newspaper SHARE. I am pleased to have
her also on my team.
4031 The woman whose spirited public relations effort
helped to acquaint the visible minority communities with our proposed station,
and a woman who has spent the past ten years training, developing and promoting
emerging black Canadian musical talent, Mrs. Denise Jones.
4032 Next to Denise we have Bob Templeton. He is a
representative of NewCap, our investors. I'm pleased to have Bob join me on the
4033 Last but not least here I have behind me Mr. Harry
Steele. He is the President and CEO of NewCap, our financial partners. He is
also a friend. He has become a friend in the last little while since I got to
meet this gentleman. I am really proud to know him, I'm really proud to have him
as part of my team, and I'm very happy that he is here standing with me this
4034 On the side table we have Peter Doering, whose firm I
commissioned to carry out audience research for this proposed station; John
Matthews, the President of Promethean Electronics, the engineering firm that
prepared the technical brief for our application; KPMG partner, Robert Correll,
who developed the financial side of our application; Bob Inkpen, who is the
Vice-President of Finance of Newfoundland Capital; and, our legal counsel,
Mr. Stephen Stohn.
4035 Madam Chair, we are now ready to begin.
4036 We are here today to apply to you for a new radio
station to be called SHARE-FM to provide a rhythm and blues/black urban dance
format for Toronto. A mouthful of a name for a format, but one that describes
the music we propose to a T. This station is intended to reach out to the new
face of Toronto, to do on radio what Citytv has done in television, that is,
recognize the new face of our city and to reflect it in every aspect of our
operations. In the words of the Broadcasting Act, it will "reflect ... the
multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society" here in Canada's
4037 This morning I want to present our vision for the
kind of radio station Toronto needs at this point of history, how we will meet
that need in our spoken-word and music programming and in our employment
practices, and how the ownership team I have assembled can do this.
4038 MS HAUGHTON: Madam Chair, and Members of the
Commission, I would like to share our vision of the new face of Toronto. The
Greater Toronto Area, the GTA, is now recognized as the most diverse city in
North America, if not the whole world, with a visible minority population of
about two million. Our total population of five million will grow by one million
over the next decade, largely through immigration by visible
4039 Over the past 25 to 30 years, the face of Toronto has
changed dramatically. It is now younger, a rainbow of colours and a diversity of
4040 Dealing with diversity is a challenge today in
Canada, and one that will increase in the years ahead. Toronto is the leading
edge of that change. This challenge will also provide great opportunities and
enrich our society by developing new partnerships, new approaches and new
responsibilities. By respecting diversity, we will maintain the cohesive
harmonious society we have today, thereby creating a dynamic model for
4041 To do this, we need to be more responsive to the
concerns for diverse communities. We comprise nearly half of our population, but
are underrepresented in important positions of influence and on issues and
policies that have an impact on our lives. In particular, visible minorities
feel excluded. Nowhere else is this more evident than in radio. The youth of
these communities feel particularly frustrated.
4042 We believe, Members of the Commission, that Toronto
needs a radio station that reflects its new reality in its incredible diversity.
SHARE-FM represents such a vision, a vision for a radio station that will
reflect the diversity of communities in the GTA, a radio station that it lacks,
with an emphasis on visible minorities, and fuelled, Members of the Commission,
by an important contribution from the black community. This is the reality of
this great and vibrant region.
4043 This inclusive approach will make people from around
the world, whether long-established or newly arrived here, feel included. It
will also provide a positive portrait of the new face of Toronto to the older
4044 MR. CAUDEIRON: Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, I would like to tell you a little bit about how our proposed station
will reflect the diversity of communities in the GTA.
4045 The value of visible minority experience is the basic
assumption underlining the very existence of our station. Our approach is to use
music to reach out to the diverse communities. We also will ensure a fresh new
perspective in our spoken-word programming, one coming from the visible minority
4046 SHARE-FM will be dedicated to serving a broad
spectrum of people, focused first and foremost on the black and other visible
minority communities, and including young people, regardless of race,
particularly those in the 18 to 34 age group, who have a passion for this
4047 Musically, SHARE-FM will provide a rhythm and
blues/black urban dance format -- which, in the interests of time, I will
refer to as urban dance -- that is eminently enjoyable to the multiplicity
of people that make up the GTA.
4048 Large numbers of these residents of all ethnic
backgrounds, male and female, gay and straight, newly arrived and longer
established, have a passion for this musical format. It is a music that speaks
to hundreds of thousands of the young and not-so-young while dissolving barriers
of language, class, race, gender and ethnicity.
4049 Merging global cultures are resulting in a fusion and
blending of diverse musical forms. The introduction of our unique blend of urban
dance music will fill the void on the city's airwaves. Listeners now have to
dial around to a variety of Toronto stations and out-of-market stations like
WBLK in Buffalo to get even a sampling of what we will provide. No Toronto
station provides the unique blend of music that we will offer. In fact, about 80
per cent of the music featured on SHARE-FM is not available on existing
commercial stations in Toronto, and out-of-market stations do not provide the
news, weather, sports, entertainment notes and exposure of local artists that we
4050 If licensed, SHARE-FM will significantly increase air
play and access to radio for Canadian urban dance music artists. The
significance of Toronto, due to its size, market potential, and influence as the
centre of the Canadian music industry, greatly enhances the impact that such
support will provide in terms of increasing the diversity of talent across the
entire Canadian broadcasting spectrum.
4051 We will celebrate the music of our own artists in a
variety of ways.
4052 First, the fact that there is a station playing a
minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content and focusing on urban dance music will
give the existing artists a home for their music.
4053 Secondly, one half of all Canadian music played will
be devoted to new music released within the past 24 months.
4054 Third, I will host a weekly one-hour new releases
show focused on new works by local and other Canadian artists in this
4055 Fourth, an initiative providing free promotion
announcements for Canadian recordings and appearances by Canadian
4056 Of course our announcers will be intimately involved
in the urban dance music scene. They will talk about what local artists are
doing and what is going on in the clubs as a matter of course.
4057 MR. AUGUSTE: Our news and spoken-word programming
will be inclusive, balanced and reflective of the racially diverse residents of
the GTA, particularly its visible minority population and young
4058 SHARE-FM will feature a comprehensive news and
information service with not less than 49 major newscasts per week, plus news
updates in other hours depending on the news and the time of day. Major new
packages at 9:00 a.m., noon, 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. will feature special
reports that will address the interests and concerns of the GTA's diverse
communities. A minimum of 50 per cent of our news coverage will be devoted
to local news and comment, which will be presented with sensitivity, and offer a
different perspective on the news of the day. Our news coverage will be
complemented by two public affairs programs.
4059 Here is how we provide this new
4060 Journalists invariably bring with them -- bring
their own backgrounds and knowledge to the reporting of a story. In recruiting
new staff, we will search out the highly-trained and professional minority
talent from the existing broadcasting talent pool, supplemented by the best from
the region's broadcast and journalism schools. They will find a home for their
talents that not only is sensitive to them but one that encourages them to bring
a new, fresh perspective to the news.
4061 We plan an outreach initiative to bring new experts
into the mix. Rather than consult the same people as everyone else does, we will
reach out to qualified experts in a wide range of fields from the visible
4062 At SHARE newspaper, we have been providing a
different news perspective for almost 22 years. Of course SHARE-FM will
have a separate newsroom and editorial staff, but we will benefit from the
contacts, sensitivity and experience of the newspaper, and I might add, my own
personal experience of being a journalist in this community for 27 years.
Furthermore, we will reach out to the other visible minority media to benefit
from their experience.
4063 We will also adopt ways of innovative and responsive
consultative and feedback mechanisms.
4064 Our contact with our audience will not be limited to
news and public affairs. Frankly, for many of them, the entertainment aspects of
our station will be much more important. We will place a strong emphasis on the
cultural and the entertainment happenings of interest to our audience. A
calendar of events promoting local concerts, club dates, festivals and other
happenings will be featured prominently throughout the day. And perhaps, most
important and symbolic, SHARE will be a place where people with accents are not
shut out of radio but instead a place where they will feel welcome.
4065 MS JONES: Madam Chair, Commissioners, in terms of
Canadian talent development, over the seven-year term of licence we will
contribute $3,150,000 in benefits to the Canadian broadcasting system. SHARE-FM
will provide a unique window of opportunity for the hundreds of urban dance
music artists, particularly but not limited to those of black and Caribbean
origin. Their music has had a profound influence and has played a major
contribution in Canadian popular music, yet they have had little or no
opportunity for exposure of their music in Canada's broadcast system.
4066 SHARE-FM will provide $1,150,000 for the development
of Canadian rhythm and blues/black urban dance music. These monies will be used
to support FACTOR, provide seed money, to record new music, and retain the
services of Daniel Caudeiron as our director of Canadian talent
4067 Daniel's passionate support of Canadian talent,
encyclopedic knowledge of urban dance music, and multicultural background makes
him ideally suited for his position as director of Canadian talent development
for this station.
4068 MR. TEMPLETON: When the three partners sat down
together to develop this application, we recognized that we needed to develop a
group of initiatives that are unique, innovative, commensurate with the size of
the market, and that meet the objectives of the Broadcast Act. The idea of
working with the aboriginal community emerged and resulted in the SHARE
proposal. SHARE-FM will provide $2 million to Aboriginal Voices Radio, who
have committed to use this money for the training of aboriginal broadcasters and
the production of programming at their Toronto radio station.
4069 At NewCap, our discussions with Gary Farmer and the
AVR team really captured our imagination and we decided to further develop our
relationship. We recognize that the applications to extend our support are not
before you today.
4070 MS VEECOCK: SHARE-FM will have a unique opportunity
from day one, both to introduce and maintain representation of the groups
targeted for employment equity. We will not only program to the new face of
Toronto, we will reflect the new face of Toronto.
4071 We will introduce an employment equity policy and
program to guarantee that staff at all levels reflects the diversity of Toronto.
This policy and other staffing initiatives will ensure that our on-air, off-air
and management staff will be a more realistic representation of the GTA
demographics than any mainstream radio station in Toronto or, for that matter,
elsewhere in Canada.
4072 Arnold Auguste will be the Chairman and CEO of this
station. Mr. Auguste is an astute businessman, an immigrant from the Caribbean
who has demonstrated an unwavering commitment to the black and Caribbean
community, as well as to other visible minority communities in
4073 He holds 30 per cent of the common shares of the
proposed company and controls the company through a voting trust which gives him
the power to vote 60 per cent of the common shares.
4074 Twenty-two years ago, in the living room of his
humble apartment, he started a small community newspaper, SHARE, catering to the
black and Caribbean Canadian community. Despite a number of setbacks, and there
were many, including a fire that destroyed the newspaper, Arnold persisted and
succeeded in contrast to others who have failed. Today, SHARE continues to be
the largest weekly ethnic newspaper in Canada, in a highly competitive
4075 His success, Members of the Panel, undoubtedly is due
to the unwavering commitment that SHARE has demonstrated over the years in
promoting respect and acceptance for this city's visible minority population.
Mr. Auguste has demonstrated his business and journalistic capabilities. Part of
respect SHARE has garnered has been from its commitment to telling the truth
about our community -- at times condemning the bad, but always, always,
celebrating the good. SHARE has an excellent track record for vigorously
defending our community when it is being wronged.
4076 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I want to
talk a little bit about why I agreed to serve as a member of this proposed
station, and this is very important to me. I agreed to serve as a member of the
board of directors of the proposed station for basically two reasons: One, I
share his vision of a station that reflects, both in terms of programming and
staffing, the diversity of communities in Toronto; but, more importantly, this
station will be owned and controlled by Mr. Auguste, and I am confident Mr.
Auguste will ensure that the vision articulated in this application is
4077 Mr. Auguste's financial partner is NewCap
Broadcasting, a division of Newfoundland Capital. NCC holds 40 per cent of the
common shares. It is a publicly-traded Canadian corporation based in Halifax
with interests in radio in Atlantic Canada, Ontario, and Alberta.
4078 NCC is a financially sound, experienced and a
responsible broadcaster. Their presence on our board will enhance our ability to
meet our goals by bringing financial stability, added broadcasting experience,
and overall business expertise.
4079 Robert Wood, Mr. Auguste's other partner, holds 30
per cent of the shares, and is an experience Toronto-based broadcaster. Fifteen
years ago, he was a pioneer in identifying the need for a conventional urban
dance music station to reflect the ethnic and racial diversity in
4080 MR. WOOD: In terms of signal, we have applied for a
licence to carry on a radio undertaking that will either operate on 93.5 FM
and 740 AM simultaneously, or on an expanded 93.5 FM frequency on its
4081 Of these two options, we prefer to operate on an
expanded FM frequency on its own. If the Commission approves this option,
SHARE-FM will increase its commitment to Canadian talent development by
4082 When the Commission licensed Rawlco on 92.5 FM in
Toronto some ten years ago, it indicated that it had no concerns about the
potential interference to CHAY-FM, Barrie. With a similar indication, SHARE-FM
will reach out to all of Toronto with a stereo FM service leaving 740 AM open
for other purposes -- a win-win for all.
4083 MR. CAUDEIRON: Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, I want to present you with the five fundamental reasons why our
proposal should be approved.
4084 First, SHARE radio is a unique new partnership
between Arnold Auguste, NewCap and Bob Wood. They bring to this enterprise a
passion for and experience in serving the visible minority communities,
extensive experience in broadcasting both here in Toronto and elsewhere and the
financial stability and commitment to make a success of this endeavour while
meeting and exceeding our commitments. We will provide diversity and media
ownership in Toronto by introducing a new licensee to Toronto radio.
4085 Second, SHARE-FM is founded on a sound business plan
featuring SHARE capital of $6 million, a bank line of credit of $2 million,
and conservative revenue projections. These factors, coupled with a format that
will achieve an estimated audience share of 8 to 12 per cent among persons aged
18 to 54, will increase prospects of financial viability of our proposed
4086 Third, our innovative solution for expansion of the
93.5 signal will enable us to optimize spectrum use, further enhance our ability
to achieve financial viability, and provide effective signal coverage for
members of the black and other visible minorities, regardless of where they live
in the GTA.
4087 Fourth, SHARE-FM will reflect the new face of our
city, particularly the black, but also the other visible minority communities
who make up almost half of our population, while also attracting a wider
audience by providing the music they prefer.
4088 And fifth, our $1.15 million to promote the
development of Canadian rhythm and blues/ black urban dance music, and our $2
million to facilitate the development of aboriginal radio will increase the
diversity of talent across the Canadian broadcasting system while helping to
meet a fundamental national and Toronto need.
4089 MR. AUGUSTE: Madam Chair, in closing, for over
fifteen years I have followed the efforts to bring an urban dance station to
Toronto. The first efforts came from Mr. Wood, and I supported this vision that
he brought at that time.
4090 SHARE newspaper has a long history of accomplishment.
For 22 years we have stood up for our community, but there are limits to SHARE's
ability to reach out to the wider community.
4091 We must reach out to our youth. Unfortunately, they
do not read newspapers to anywhere the extent that the older generation does. A
radio station featuring the music that they love is a positive message to
4092 SHARE's readership is largely black and Caribbean
readership. I believe that we need to extend our message of inclusion to a wider
community and to reflect this startling demographic change and the challenges
this poses for Toronto. An urban dance radio station, properly focused, can
reach to the large visible minority community.
4093 SHARE newspaper is now at a stage where I feel
comfortable taking on another initiative, another challenge, and I am looking
forward to this one. I believe that this station will be viable and profitable.
We can actually do good while doing well.
4094 Thank you for your attention and our team is ready
for your questions.
4095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Auguste, and
4096 Commissioner Grauer, please.
4097 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. Welcome.
4098 In my questions today I'm going to cover the areas of
technical programming, Canadian talent and marketing. I don't have any questions
on ownership and finance, so what I would like to do is start in the technical
area, and you touched on it in your opening remarks as well.
4099 You have applied for the use of both the 740 AM and
93.5, or, alternatively, your alternative technical solution, which would be
expanded coverage of 93.5. You have admitted that this proposal would require
what you referred to as a waiver from us, and I will get to that later, but also
additional engineering to protect stations other than CHAY-FM, and you feel that
we should be able to grant your request.
4100 I guess my principle question is that we -- how
do I put this -- we have not received from you an actual application or
detailed engineering brief with respect to your option two, and I am wondering
if you have talked about this to Industry Canada. Have you discussed it with
Industry Canada? Did you consider discussing it with Industry Canada?
4101 MR. AUGUSTE: This question I would like to refer to
Robert Wood. He is better prepared, I think, to answer this question and will
make a little more sense than I would.
4102 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, that's correct, we did not
file an actual technical brief for that part of the proposal. That's correct, we
4103 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I beg your pardon?
4104 MR. WOOD: That's correct, we didn't.
4105 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Have you had any discussions
with Industry Canada?
4106 MR. WOOD: No, we haven't. But we are aware that the
consent that we are asking you to provide from CHAY-FM in Barrie involves an
area of interference in Toronto that is a very small area, similar to what was
provided or what occurred in 1990 with the Rawlco station against CHAY-FM in
Barrie -- in other words, the two situations are virtually
4107 Therefore, in asking for your waiver, we in fact are
not asking for something that is new. A precedent has already been set. It was
outlined in the CRTC Decision 90-693 in which the Commission said it has no
concern with respect to the technical aspects of the Rawlco proposal.
4108 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: But are you aware that in 1990
Rawlco filed with us a technical application for the expanded coverage and that
in that application they outlined the areas of interference? They had received
permission from Industry Canada -- I mean, they had gone through quite an
extensive procedure, and we in fact were satisfied, in reviewing all of that,
and conditional of course on the Industry Canada approval, that there wouldn't
4109 MR. WOOD: Yes, I am aware of that, but I think that
what we are saying is that it would not be any kind of a precedent for the
Commission to grant us the same kind of consent and simply say that it would be
conditional on Industry Canada approval.
4110 In our proposal we have outlined the general broad
parameters that we would require on the signal so that in the event that we are
able to sit down with Industry Canada and discuss with them what we
require -- we have a range of between 10,000 and 15,000 watts that, once we
have subjected that to testing, we will be able to determine the ideal contour
for the station.
4111 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4112 You will understand there is quite a difference from
our perspective from having had a detailed technical application filed with us
as opposed to we don't have one in this case from you for the expanded
4113 MR. WOOD: Yes.
4114 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Have you had any discussions
with Chorus, just out of curiosity?
4115 MR. WOOD: Yes, we have, and Chorus indicated that
they were not prepared to provide the waiver required. They indicated that they
had also heard from one or two other parties and they had told them the same
4116 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4117 You have presented to us alternatives, which is a
combined 740 AM and 93.5, as it exists, or your option two. Would you be
prepared to accept a licence for the 93.5 alone as it has been filed with us by
4118 MR. WOOD: We have had a discussion about that matter
this morning, in fact in the last couple of days, and it is the view of Mr.
Auguste that we indeed would be prepared to accept a licence from the Commission
if so granted on the lower power, but that would be on the clear understanding
that we would be back within a couple of months with an application reflecting
the full technical proposal that you have alluded to earlier here.
4119 MR. AUGUSTE: Madam Commissioner, our concern here is
that we want to be able to serve our community properly, effectively and
efficiently. A large segment of our community is out of reach, as far as we
understand it, with this signal as it stands now.
4120 We have waited as a community for a long time to get
to this point. There is a great need, and it has been expressed here, and by
others, for a serious -- for a station, for a frequency that will serve our
community. We have real concerns about the signal as it is now, and that is why
we are asking for this enhancement. We want to do the best we can, and we want
your help to do that.
4121 You know, in terms of this variance that we are
asking for, I have been advised by our team that it's something that could
easily be done. I believe you have the will to do this, and I'm hoping I am
right. You know, I will tell you, if what we are saying is true, this is
important not just for us but for everybody who is applying for this signal. You
know, I think it is something we need to consider very, very
4122 Anyway, let me leave at that. I'm sure we are going
to come back to this.
4123 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: And I want to assure you, our
discussions around the issue of the signal are not related to the merits of the
application. This is really a technical issue and I think what is really
important is this is an Industry Canada issue. It is for them to do this. This
is why I'm wondering if this is fully understood.
4124 Perhaps your technical consultants could address that
if he is here.
4125 MR. WOOD: Perhaps I could just respond to that
4126 The Commission has tremendous discretionary powers,
virtually unlimited discretionary power. The Commission simply has to say in its
decision that subject to a satisfactory conclusion of testing with the applicant
and Industry Canada it will grant this licence.
4127 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: That is what you are requesting
that we do. I will let our legal counsel follow up with that later. I'm sure
they will want to do that.
4128 Okay. If I could, then, just ask a couple of other
4129 If we were to grant you the 93.5, as it has been
filed with us, which is for the restricted coverage area, and you were to
later -- I know you have made an additional Canadian talent development
commitment if you were granted the expanded the option, if you were to make
arrangements and you were to later secure this, would you then meet those
increased CTD commitments?
4130 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.
4131 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4132 Other than the 93.5 frequency that you have
requested, are you aware of the availability of any other FM frequency that
could be used to establish this service in Toronto?
4133 MR. AUGUSTE: Could you repeat the question,
4134 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes, certainly.
4135 Are you aware of any other FM frequency, other than
the one for which you have applied, that could be used to offer your
4136 MR. AUGUSTE: Well, there is the 106.5, which has been
applied for by the Aboriginal Voices Radio, but the frequency that we are
applying for I believe is closest to what want. If we get the permission --
it will be exactly what we want, just what the doctor ordered.
4137 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4138 What I would now like to do is ask you a question on
4139 You are proposing a one hour open-line program on
Sundays to be known as Straight Talk, addressed to young people. As I am sure
you are aware, we have, in Public Notice 1998-213, expressed concern
about -- that we had a policy regarding open-line programming, and we are
concerned that licensees who carry open-line programs be aware of and adhere to
requirements with respect to abusive content, balance, and high
4140 I'm wondering if you have any internal guidelines,
policies or other mechanisms that you have developed to put in place to ensure
that -- with respect to the conduct of open-line programs?
4141 MR. AUGUSTE: Well, from my experience running the
show over the years, I think I have been very responsible -- I have been
4142 You know, the thing is, as far as our young people
are concerned -- and I think that is what you are talking about, an
open-line talk show for the youth -- this is something that has been
resting very heavily on my heart for a long time.
4143 As I said earlier, we have been able to reach the
older members of our communities through SHARE, but we have not been able to
reach our young people to that extent. You know, we are looking at a generation
that we need to reach them, we need to get to them. I saw this as an opportunity
to have them talk.
4144 I mean, sometimes, you know, you listen to young
people, and they are saying, "Nobody listens to us. Nobody wants to hear what we
say. You guys, you know, you tell us what you think we want to here." This is
designed for them to speak to us or for them to speak to each other. The people
who are going to run this, the people who are going to be in charge of it are
professionals and they will understand, you know, what we need. I mean, we have
set our policies up so that everything will be done in good taste. But where
young people are concerned, you know, when they start talking they are going to
talk, and we want them to be open, we want them to be honest. We don't want to
control what they do.
4145 So from my own experience and from my track record,
this is going to be tasteful, it's going to be well done, but I want it to be
honest. I want the young people to speak out, for them to, you know, air their
views, air their concerns, air their gripes. Also, their ambitions, their hopes,
their dreams, you know. We want to hear from them so that we can help address
4146 So, like I say, I mean we are going to try to ensure
that it is handled tastefully and so on. It will be done properly. We won't
exert too much control over them, but it will be done tastefully.
4147 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, if I could just add to
4148 For the talk portion of that program, part of it will
be telephone talk, but part of it will be interview talk, young people talking
amongst themselves. So it won't all be telephone talk.
4149 To the extent that it is telephone, there will be a
tape delay in which if anything inappropriate is said on the air we will be able
to stop it before it gets to air.
4150 Third, the people in charge of the programming on the
station in the news and public affairs department will be professional
journalists. They will monitor it carefully. I think it has been our experience
that young people are very responsible. They are not going to want to do
something that is inappropriate.
4151 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: No. I certainly don't want, (a),
to suggest that we are singling out young people. I think it has been, you know,
our experience that for open-line shows in particular it has been very helpful
for broadcasters to develop their own set of guidelines with respect to this,
not to censor, not to restrict. Again, not that young people are any great
offenders of this, it's really just something that has been useful. And I
appreciate your comments with respect to tape delay. Thank you.
4152 How did you determine that Sunday evenings at 9:00
was a good time for this?
4153 MR. AUGUSTE: Well, we figured that Friday nights our
young people are out partying, Saturdays night they are out partying. You
4154 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Sunday nights they were
recovering, so they would be home.
--- Laughter / Rires
4155 MR. AUGUSTE: Sunday they are recovering, then there
is school the next day. So, yes, you know --
4156 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4157 What I would like to do now is talk about your
Canadian talent development commitments.
4158 You will adhere to the CAB plan, which is $27,000 a
year, and over and above that you are proposing direct contributions of
$2,961,000 over seven years among four initiatives: seed money, to record new
music, the hiring of a director of Canadian talent development, the
establishment of an aboriginal radio station proposed by Gary Farmer.
4159 Now, what I would like to do first of all is talk
about your proposal to hire Daniel Caudeiron as the director of CTD, and you
would like us to qualify this as a direct contribution or you won't create the
position. What I would like you to tell me is why you would abandon the proposal
altogether rather than pursuing it as an indirect contribution to Canadian
4160 As you know, I think we have had an exchange through
the deficiency process in which we have suggested that these types of
contributions are not normally considered direct CTD contributions. So perhaps
you could elaborate for me a bit on that.
4161 MR. AUGUSTE: If you know Daniel Caudeiron as well as
I do, he is Canadian talent development. I mean, his life has been devoted to
developing talent, to promoting -- I mean, this guy is passionate about
this. This is his life, this seems to be all he does. I don't know if he does
anything else. I have never heard him talk about anything else. He is always
walking around with somebody's record or somebody's CD, trying to promote and
4162 I feel pleased and honoured to have him agree to
participate with me, agree to be involved with this. You know what? He would
have done this -- I'm sure he would have done this for free if we had asked
him. You know --
--- Laughter / Rires
4163 MR. AUGUSTE: No. But, you know, he is so passionate
about this, I think that you have to understand where he is coming from. This is
his baby. I mean, he is not going to be working in the station. He is not going
to be part of our staff. You know, I feel very, very confident that what he is
going to bring to this position will be so valuable that, you know, I don't see,
you know, that we could look at it any way else. I mean, if you want to suggest
another option to me, I am willing to listen.
4164 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Well, again, I think that there
is no question -- we are not questioning, in any respect, Mr. Caudeiron's
talents or skills or the asset that he will be to you and to Canadian talent.
What we are saying is that only in the most unusual circumstances have we
counted salary paid as Canadian talent development direct contribution, and
those cases have been when there are vast sums of money and that person has been
involved in ensuring, in complex allocations, that things are done
4165 The Canadian talent development direct contributions
are really designed to be direct to the artist.
4166 Now, you can certainly -- the association of the
station with Mr. Caudeiron can be indirect Canadian talent development, it can
take a number of other forms. What we are talking about is having it qualify as
a direct contribution. So that is really what we are talking about. It can be
considered an indirect contribution and, if so, then we would say: Well, would
you maintain that $50,000 per year and direct it elsewhere as a direct
contribution? That is really the question.
4167 MR. AUGUSTE: Okay. Now, you say there has to be
unusual circumstances, or whatever. Again, if you know Daniel, he is
4168 But anyway, I would like it to be considered as part
of our CTD, but I would be prepared to look at it as an indirect contribution.
The fact is that -- I mean, he is in regardless of how we go with it. I
mean, I wanted -- you know, Danny has been involved.
4169 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, if I could add to
4170 We are not suggesting that we wouldn't devote that
contribution to some aspect of Canadian talent development. If Mr. Caudeiron is
not acceptable as a direct expenditure, whether he qualifies as direct or
indirect, somehow he is going to be involved in our operation to make sure that
this program runs properly.
4171 Secondly, in the event that you don't qualify it as
direct expenditure, that money will go to something that will involve a direct
4172 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4173 With respect to the miscellaneous expenses that you
referred to in your additional contribution to CTD -- I think it's $7,000
and something -- could you please confirm that you will ensure they will
all qualify as direct contributions to the development of Canadian
4174 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.
4175 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4176 Now, I would like to just talk briefly about your
contributions to help launch the proposed new aboriginal radio
4177 You specified that if Gary Farmer's application was
not successful the contributions would be redirected to the Aboriginal Peoples'
Broadcast, Production and Training Centre, which is also based here in
4178 As you know, funding of a new radio station would not
ordinarily be considered as a direct contribution to Canadian talent. I wonder
if you could elaborate for us on why this contribution should be considered by
the Commission as a Canadian talent development or a valuable contribution to
the Toronto community or Canada as a whole.
4179 MR. AUGUSTE: Okay. First, I don't see this as a
contribution to the development of the radio station as such. What this money is
earmarked for is to develop programs, to develop artists, to develop talent in
4180 You know, when I first starting discussing this
initiative, I was taken aback by the fact that there was not a station for the
aboriginal people -- I mean, I never thought about it before, but all of a
sudden I'm -- you know, it's like, how come? Why not? When they started
talking about the type of things that it needs to be able to do, as far as I
understand it they are going put their radio station together, if they are
licensed, with or without our help, but this contribution will help them do more
than they are financially able to do now in terms of developing artists,
developing talent, programming, and so on.
4181 Now if, God forbid, they are not licensed, we will
still make this contribution, and this money, from our discussions, will go to
do the same kind of things, have them develop programming, have them develop
artists, have them develop talent in their community, you know, and hopefully
get involved in other ventures. But we want to help them get to the point where,
you know, they have young people who are qualified and prepared professionally
to exhibit their skills or market their skills.
4182 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4183 If we were to decide that we wouldn't accept it, the
$2 million, as a direct Canadian talent development initiative, would you elect
to redirect the $2 million over seven years to a qualifiable CTD direct
initiative, and if that's the case could you maybe tell us where you would
direct the funds?
4184 MR. AUGUSTE: I feel that the contribution we have
already made to CTD was quite attractive, you know. It's something I have to
4185 Let me pass this off to my partner, Mr. Wood, and let
him take this.
4186 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, one little noticed aspect of
the Act says that programming that reflects the aboriginal cultures of Canada
should be provided within the Canada broadcasting system as resources become
available for the purpose. There can be nothing more Canadian than what we are
doing in light of what the Act is saying.
4187 And in light of the specific uses of that money, it
will be used for seminars, scholarships and grants. The seminars will be for the
aboriginal literary and music communities, for topics such as recording their
works or preparation for recording, payment for guest speakers, facility costs,
materials for artists.
4188 A significant part of the money would be for
scholarships and grants -- and again that would be for literary and music
communities; $1,000 to $2,500 for members of the community to participate
economically -- this would be for music performers, for playwrights, for
poets, for actors, for storytellers, including focus on elders, youth, women,
and persons with disabilities.
4189 It would be used for program production. The monies
would be used to support production of station-produced spoken word and music
programming, and this would include poetry, music, drama, storytelling, focus on
youth and elders. The payment would be for production fees and other media
4190 It would also be for the development of concerts, a
series of concert events leading to music video production, and the payment
would be for the events, the studio costs, the production and CD distribution.
It would also be for concert presentations, payment for musicians and event
staff and for facility costs.
4191 I think that we realize that this initiative does not
fit the normal definition, but we also believe passionately that nothing speaks
to the development of Canadian talent more than this initiative.
4192 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Well, Mr. Wood, I don't
disagree with you at all. I think that what we are not doing is having a
discussion about the merits of supporting these initiatives. What I am doing is
trying to explore some of these areas so we have a record that is efficient when
we come to, in our deliberations: Well, what if, what if, what if?
4193 So my question would be: If, for whatever reasons,
notwithstanding the merits of the proposal, we were to conclude that it didn't
meet, what would you do with this money? Would you redirect it to something that
we would consider eligible? I am not saying we will or we won't.
4194 MR. WOOD: Our response to that would be that we ask,
then, that you simply not qualify it as Canadian talent development. We are
still going to direct the money to the aboriginal community for the initiative,
regardless of how you qualify it.
4195 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: That was my next question. Thank
4196 With respect to your proposal to assist Gary Farmer
in carrying out day-to-day operations should they be successful in their licence
application, you have proposed to assist through a contribution of $210,000, and
I would like -- can you confirm that this additional initiative is in fact
an indirect initiative under CTD and is a one-time only contribution?
4197 MR. WOOD: Are you talking about the indirect --
the $210,000 in help in terms of the station?
4198 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Indirect, yes.
4199 MR. WOOD: Yes. I think we view that as an indirect,
but we certainly would be prepared to accept that as a condition of licence. We
think and they think that that part of our program is as important as the
financial contribution that we will make to them.
4200 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4201 Would there be any other help that you might provide
after year one with respect to their ongoing operation should they be
4202 MR. WOOD: I'm not sure that I understand your
question other than to say that we expect that the two stations will operate out
of the same building. They will be one side of the hall, we will be on the
other. There will be an ongoing exchange of information creating a supportive
environment. We plan to provide mentoring help. And of course they have a lot of
areas where they can help us in terms of the sensitivities that we want to
generate in our programming.
4203 But in terms of the day-to-day operation, we plan to
help them, for example, prepare their daily logs. That would save them probably
twenty, $30,000 a year in hiring a salary person. The switchboard will be a
joint switchboard staffed by someone from our station, but answering Aboriginal
Voices Radio if the person calls the number of the switchboard that we are
handling for them, and so on and so on.
4204 So that amount at $210,000 a year or nearly $1.5
million over the term of licence I think is very crucial to help stabilize their
service and operate at a high level.
4205 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4206 Now, I just have some marketing questions.
4207 You expect the proposed station to achieve a minimum
share of 8 per cent in each year of your initial seven-year licence term, and
this would make it one of the top-ranked stations in Toronto. I am wondering,
this is obviously based on the expanded frequency or the combined 740 AM and the
93.5. This seems optimistic in year one in particular, and I am wondering if you
could elaborate a bit on that projection, and also what the 93.5 as filed, which
is a more restricted area -- how that would affect that share
4208 MR. AUGUSTE: Okay. The format that we are proposing
is an exciting format. It's a fun format, it's -- I mean, you know, we
believe -- we have a lot of confidence in this format and we believe that
in a short period of time it is going to be the format in the city.
4209 You know, in terms of marketing, in terms of some of
the questions, other questions you want to ask, I think I will ask Bob Templeton
to answer this question.
4211 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you, Arnold.
4212 It may seem optimistic. We are relying quite heavily
on younger demographics, and I'm sure you have heard this at other hearings
repeatedly, that getting 18 to 24 year olds and 18 to 34 year olds, particularly
males, to report in a diary form is a very difficult task. It's an ongoing
problem that BBM has been facing and (technical difficulties / problèmes
techniques) has been in the United States for a number of years. Although we
expect to reach somewhere in the 8 to 12 per cent range, 18 to 54, the
reality reflected in BBM would probably be more in the five to six share
4213 But I think I would like to ask Mr. Doering, who
did our research, to support that, if that is what he --
4214 MR. DOERING: Yes. We explored the format with a broad
audience, 18 to 54, in CMA Toronto, and based on the historic line of question
that we have used over the past 30 years, not only in the area of interest in
radio stations but also a number of products and services including automobiles,
cellular phones, food products and others, we found that if you ask people how
likely they are to do a certain thing, you know, you take a look at the very
likely response, and we had a very likely response of about 23 to 24 per cent
who had said they would listen to this particular station. We found that over
time you would take about a third of that as actually what is going to
4215 So we are confident that the station will achieve
somewhere in the area of an 8 per cent market.
4216 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: In year one?
4217 MR. DOERING: Yes, that's correct.
4218 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4219 MR. DOERING: I might add that what can happen is the
initial appeal of a product or service is usually about a third, so that would
be about 8 per cent. That can grow over time to 45 or 50 per cent, so it
possibly could get to 10 or 12 over time, but we have been conservative in our
estimates and kept it at 8.
4220 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Now, this is based on a combined
existing 93.5 and 740 AM. Is that right?
4221 MR. DOERING: That is correct.
4222 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Can you tell me how that would
be affected if we were to grant a licence with the restricted
4223 MR. DOERING: Just the FM restricted?
4224 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes.
4225 MR. DOERING: We believe that, in conversations with
our technical expert, that would give us -- cut the coverage down to about
60 or 70 per cent, so we might be in the 5 per cent range.
4226 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Minimum 5?
4227 MR. DOERING: That's correct.
4228 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4229 You have projected revenues in year one of $2.6
million rising to 5.4 in year five. Those I take it are based on -- they
are based on an 8 per cent share with a combined 740 AM and 93.5 frequency. Is
4230 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.
4231 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Those strike me as -- since
the average revenue per FM station you calculate to be almost $14 million, and
given the attractiveness of this demographic to advertisers, which is certainly
what we have been hearing throughout this process, this seems rather
conservative. I wonder if you could help me with that.
4232 MR. AUGUSTE: Well, as the Commission noted yesterday,
everybody seems to be coming here very conservative at these
4233 Yes, they might be conservative, but, you know, it's
a new format. This has never been done in this country before. You know, I would
rather come to you with a figure that I feel comfortable with than to come to
you with all these rosy projections, and so on and, you know, to go the other
4234 But I would like maybe to ask Bob Templeton to
address this also.
4235 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you, Arnold.
4236 We are very hopeful this will not happen in Toronto,
but formats similar, and I say similar to this format we are proposing, are
discounted very heavily in the United States. We think there might be an
opportunity to actually get the reverse effect, but it is unproven at this
point. So we wanted, as Arnold mentioned, to bring very conservative numbers.
When you work for a public company you learn very quickly to underpromise and
overdeliver. These are numbers we feel we can take to the bank.
4237 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Why are they discounted in the
United States? This format, why is it discounted?
4238 MR. TEMPLETON: It tends to be pigeonholed as an urban
format with a lower income level. That is the experience in the States. We don't
believe that will hold true in Canada because we have a -- in Toronto,
because we have a very unique make-up of our multiracial community. But, again,
it is unproven
4239 Sometimes when new formats are introduced, the
advertising community is reluctant to jump on the bandwagon despite what the
numbers may say, so there could be a lag time before we receive the fair market
share of revenue versus the BBM results we are anticipating.
4240 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Just so I understand it,
you -- I don't want to say you envision a scenario -- it is possible
in your mind or this is what you -- from the U.S. example, where you are
getting an 8 per cent share perhaps, if you have a combined or expanded
frequency, which you can demonstrate -- your market research seems to
indicate that 8 is on the conservative end, 8 to 12 -- and notwithstanding
that, with a demographic that is attractive to advertisers, which it is, the
younger age group, you may not be able to sell it to advertisers at least
through year five.
4241 MR. TEMPLETON: In response to that I wanted to repeat
and remind you that we believe that although we may be reaching 8 per cent, BBM
will probably reflect a lower number, more in the 5 per cent range, and due to
the uniqueness of this format there could be some buyer reluctance. But you
mentioned year five and I have to plead that we are very conservative in our
4242 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I know. I just want to make
4243 MR. TEMPLETON: I believe they will be much stronger,
but we really wanted to bring you a number that we knew we could
4244 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: No, I just want to make sure I
really understand sort of how you put all these pieces together.
4245 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, if I could add one
4246 They are quite apart from the discounting of the
audience that goes on. Really what Mr. Templeton is saying is if you get an 8
per cent share of audience you might get only a 5 per cent share of the sales.
But quite apart from that, if you are a radio station that performs in the
middle of the pack, that is to say if you are not in the top five, then if you
generate an 8 per cent share of audience you don't receive an 8 per cent share
of sales, you receive a disproportionately lower level of share of sales. That
applies regardless of your format; it goes on all the time.
4247 On the other hand, if you are in that top five you
receive a disproportionately higher portion.
4248 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes. Yes. But these numbers just
liked quite conservative.
4249 One final question on that is: How would these
revenues be affected if we were to be talking about the restricted 93.5
frequency only, not the combined?
4250 MR. AUGUSTE: Could you repeat that,
4251 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Well, we talked earlier about
the possibility of -- the 93.5, as it has been filed with us, the technical
brief that has been filed, if we were to award a licence based on that, how
would your revenues be affected? Your revenues I believe are based on the
combined frequencies or an expanded 93.5.
4252 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes, okay. So you are asking if the
frequency is awarded as is?
4253 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes.
4254 MR. AUGUSTE: As opposed to the expanded
4255 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Correct.
4256 MR. AUGUSTE: I didn't think about that, but, Bob,
could you --
4257 MR. WOOD: Yes. I will ask Mr. Templeton to take
4258 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4259 MR. TEMPLETON: I want to make sure I understand the
question. Could I ask you to repeat it?
4260 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes.
4261 MR. TEMPLETON: Thank you.
4262 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: We discussed earlier the
possibility of us awarding a licence on the 93.5 as it is, not expanded and not
with 740 AM. All of the revenue figures filed with us were based on a combined
AM/FM or an expanded 93.5. What I want to understand is what is the revenue
impact -- how is the revenue impacted if we were to grant you 93.5 as
4263 MR. TEMPLETON: First the AM inclusion or the nesting
solution will not add dramatically to that revenue target, number one. Number
two, we anticipated that this would -- could be a possibility. So, again,
another reason to support our very conservative approach to revenue projection.
So we believe we can deliver those numbers with the unextended FM.
4264 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you.
4265 MR. WOOD: But that being said, Commissioner, it will
be hard to go to advertisers to say that we reach the visible minority
communities in Toronto with a signal that doesn't reach where they
4266 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I understand that. I mean, what
I'm trying to do is, you know, make sure we have a record. As we go through all
of the applications after this, you know, we want to compare apples to apples
and not apples to oranges.
4267 Thank you.
4268 According to the Doering report, WBLK Buffalo
and -- well, the two Buffalo stations in Niagara Falls attract a combined 7
per cent share, total hours tuned, among people between 18 to 54 in Toronto CMA.
This seems high given that the BBM reports the total 12 plus share held by these
stations is about 1.5 per cent.
4269 I wonder if perhaps you could explain
4270 MR. DOERING: Yes.
4271 The BBM is looking at a 12 plus market and we are
looking at 18 to 54, so we are more focused, we have a smaller
4272 As well, as Mr. Templeton indicated, it's very
difficult for a mailout survey such as BBM and Armitron to get returns from the
younger people 18 to 24. In the telephone sampling you are able to quote a
sample to ensure you get those represented to the proportion that they should
be, and that also accounts for differences in share between the two
4273 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So you think yours is more
accurate given your methods?
4274 That's not a fair question. I hear you. Thank you
--- Laughter / Rires
4275 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: You are proposing that your new
station will attract advertising dollars away from other media based on your
ability to deliver a high proportion of visible minority listeners. I am
wondering what other media you might be referring to. We wouldn't want your
newspaper to --
--- Laughter / Rires
4276 MR. AUGUSTE: Well, I hope not, although somebody said
it will be in one pocket or the other.
4277 You know, one of the things that keeps coming back to
me when we think about this is that when I started SHARE I created a market.
There were other publications around at the time, but I created a unique market.
For one thing, SHARE started out -- the principle with SHARE was based that
we were going to provide positive news. I mean, that was unthinkable. People
told me I was nuts, you know. Bad news says -- you have to get some
headlines that attract readers. So this was new, this was different. You know,
over the years we have proven, well, that good news sells.
4278 But, you know, like I said, we created a unique
market, and out of that group, a very strong publication. As a matter of fact,
it is the strongest publication in our community and it is the largest, as we
said earlier, weekly publication, weekly ethnic publication in the
4279 I think one of the things I look at in terms of this
station, because of its uniqueness, is that we are going to create a new market.
We are going to draw people to radio who right now might not be listening to
radio. We are going to draw listeners who are not served by existing markets, by
4280 You know, when we look at some of the other stations,
obviously there will be some draw from some of the stations, but my sense is
that it is going to be minimal. My feeling is that we are going to create an
entirely new market. We are going to bring a lot of people into this real
wonderful world of radio that right now don't feel included. So that is my take
4281 But let me throw this back to Bob Templeton and hear
what he has to say about it.
4282 MR. TEMPLETON: Madam Commissioner, I think if I heard
you correctly you were trying to delve into other media where that revenue would
come from. Primarily print media. This is a very difficult demographic and
profile to advertise to using electronic media in Toronto or in any major market
in the country for that matter. So there are a number of advertisers that are
relying on music publications, newspapers, magazines, NOW newspaper, as an
example. We think approximately 25 per cent of our revenue will come from those
4283 If you want me to expand, I can talk about the other
sources of revenues from --
4284 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes, I would actually, if you
4285 MR. TEMPLETON: Sure.
4286 As I think we mentioned earlier, out-of-market
stations, primarily WLBK out of Buffalo --
4287 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I wonder if you could even
expand for me a bit on that, on sort of repatriating some of those advertisers,
presumably, if you are going to attract advertisers from out-of-market
4288 BOB TEMPLETON: How we will repatriate some of
4289 Well, we think we will be tremendously successful. We
are absolutely convinced that this group, this target audience we are targeting
or going after, will stampede to your station. It will become very evident that
we are now the place to go for that demographic. We think it will be fairly
quick, repatriating the listener and the advertising dollars.
4290 It is I guess somewhat of a sad statement that the
advertisers who need to target here have to go to Buffalo to effectively address
their advertising needs. So I don't know if I have answered your
4291 There is another point too I should bring out and
that is, if we go to air on this, their signal will be dramatically restricted
in the Toronto area. I'm not the engineering expert, but I'm led to believe it
won't be reliable much beyond Hamilton, so we will probably exclude it from the
4292 Of course, with all the local initiatives and the
local focus, we are very convinced that --
4293 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I guess it was more -- and
I don't think I was very clear -- I think you said 30 per cent. How did you
come up with these numbers and sort of how you would do it. It's not whether
they would come, but where do you get the 30 per cent figure
4294 MR. WOOD: I think those numbers came together,
Commissioner, partly because of professional experience, and partly because of
our knowledge of what other stations are generating in the market. For example,
we assumed that WBLK in Buffalo generated about $1 million in the Toronto
market when we put the application together, but then we later learned that
their revenue line for Toronto is close to $2 million. Given that their signal
will be drowned out totally on the day that this station goes to air, and given
that those are all Toronto advertisers, we have very high expectations that a
significant portion of our revenue will come from them.
4295 Secondly, the other stations in the market from
Buffalo, such as WKSE-FM and B93-FM, also generate probably close to a million
dollars in additional revenue between them from Toronto. Toronto advertisers
place their money on those stations because they can't reach the unique audience
coalition that we will bring. So we have high expectations that the 30 per
cent of our revenue that we said would come from Buffalo will indeed be much
higher than that.
4296 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Those conservative projections
are starting to look more conservative by the minute, aren't they?
--- Laughter / Rires
4297 MR. TEMPLETON: How long have you got here
4298 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I think we have pretty much
covered -- you expect that a number of your potential listeners will spend
more time listening to radio than they do now, and I take it from the
discussions we have had that those are people who aren't tuning in because there
isn't anything that is there for them.
4299 A new dance format station would be expected to
capture an audience currently listening to CISS-FM, CIDC and CING. I'm wondering
if you could just elaborate a little further on why Doering Consultants didn't
identify those stations as likely competitors who would experience some decline,
and tell me how your station would differ so much that -- I mean, it seems
you don't see these as direct competitors.
4300 MR. AUGUSTE: Okay. I might add, that is a good
question. I'm glad you asked that question, because we have all kinds of good
stuff here for you on that.
4301 First, I will let Bob take it and then I would like
Daniel to talk to that too.
4302 MR. WOOD: Quite simply, it is a different format. It
is a rhythm and blues/black urban dance format as opposed to a contemporary hit
radio or top 40 format, so the advertiser base, to a large extent, is different,
the target demographic is different, and the two stations musically are
completely different. I think that is what Mr. Auguste -- it was the
reason that motivated him to suggest Mr. Caudeiron.
4303 MR. CAUDEIRON: Thank you very much, Bob.
4304 There is no urban dance format in Toronto, there is
no urban dance music format in Ontario, there is no urban dance format in Canada
in the commercial conventional mainstream. So we are totally fresh, we are
totally new, where we are playing all of the music anytime as opposed to some of
the music some of the time. We will be bringing what I call mega-rhythms to the
mega-city, a new sound to the new city. And, in practical terms, we will be
adding distinctiveness, we will be adding diversity. Eighty per cent of the
music not currently heard on commercial radio will be played by us, it may be
4305 This music, we know, appeals to the most diverse
population that is underserved and is pent up and waiting for it. We also will
be playing a distinctive programming and presentation, a music presented in a
unique fashion. This format will be diverse, reflecting and respecting and
representing the diversity of the population and the creators of the music. It
will be giving exposure to a wide range of Canadian talent from diverse
communities, and it will be totally inclusive. It will become a uniquely
Canadian format for commercial radio.
4306 When we compare with CISS, CING and CIDC, what we
have are rhythmic CHR stations that are playing a high rotation of hits
repeatedly, in which some of the urban contemporary sounds from the hit charts
are played and they may correspond but they are not playing the full broad
spectrum of the music that comes from the international sources and from the
domestic sources which include reggae and ska and bangra, and African music and
salsa and beyond, all the various styles that make up the components of our four
elements of music and urban dance.
4307 So we will be totally different. We will be
presenting an alternative that is fresher.
4308 MR. WOOD: Commissioner, just to underline what Mr.
Caudeiron said, we filed the application on the 20th of September, 1999. Then we
obtained a monitor of the music played on CISS-FM, Hits 103 in Orangeville, and
Energy 108 in Burlington, to determine the level of duplication that
existed between our music list that we filed with you and what they played in
the week following. In the entire week of music played on their three stations,
only 1.5 per cent of the music is duplicated between the three stations and what
4309 So even though we have said 80 per cent of our music
will be different, it was actually 98.5 per cent.
4310 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very much.
4311 That concludes all of my questions except the last
one which we have asked all of the applicants. I will tell you what it is before
I turn it over to legal counsel who may have some questions.
4312 As you know, your application is technically
competitive with several others, and what we would really like, we are
soliciting the views of all of the competitors to assist us by telling us why
they think theirs is the best application and the best use of these very coveted
frequencies. It is also your opportunity to answer any questions that we didn't
ask you. So if you want to think about that for a minute, you can take five
minutes to answer, but first I think legal counsel may have some
4313 Or maybe the Chair.
4314 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4315 Mr. Wood, I don't know if you have followed this
hearing up to date, but we love applicants who suggest we have great powers, and
yours is that somehow we have the power to relax or waive the existing technical
regulations concerning protection interference of established FM stations and FM
4316 I must tell you right off that you don't come
anywhere near what we have heard, because Mr. Evanov's colleagues of CKMW
suggested we could turn Toronto around.
--- Laughter / Rires
4317 MR. WOOD: Or upside down.
4318 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that Orangeville and Brampton
would beam into Toronto from the bottom rather than being beamed into by
Toronto, and he is apparently discussing this with Mr. Lastman at the
--- Laughter / Rires
4319 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which leads me to say that Mr.
Lastman may have, under the law, something to say about it, just like Industry
Canada has something to say about whether regulations that concern the
relaxation of their regulation, whether that is their power or ours.
4320 But, for the record, you have mentioned that we have
waived before, and I have the 1990 decision here before me, and there is a
sentence that says:
"The Commission notes Rawlco's response to the intervention received from
CHAY and has no concern that the new station will cause undue technical harm to
the signal provided by CHAY-FM." (As
4321 Is that what you consider is our waiver?
4322 MR. AUGUSTE: Yes.
4323 MR. WOOD: Yes.
4324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Despite the fact that our
information is that there was a technical brief in that regard, and we were
responding to the intervention in light of what Industry Canada has to say about
4325 But that is the waiver that you feel has been given
by us with regard to interference with CHAY?
4326 MR. WOOD: Yes, that's correct.
4327 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wood, how would that coverage be
expanded? We have six, I think, applications for 93.5, ranging from 205 watts to
1,430 watts. I may not have them all, but at least that is what I quickly
4328 So how would the expanded coverage be achieved by
transmitting at higher effective power?
4329 MR. WOOD: There is no way that the radio station can
effectively cover the Greater Toronto Area unless the waiver from Chorus or
Shaw, if you want to call them that, can be achieved. It would be achieved, in
part, by higher power, so while some of the applicants are proposing up to 1,000
watts, what we require to effectively cover the GTA is 10,000 to 15,000
4330 THE CHAIRPERSON: And nowhere do we have an
engineering study discussing what that range of radiation would do. I think I
heard you say you didn't discuss this with Industry Canada either.
4331 MR. WOOD: We didn't discuss that with Industry
Canada, but we do have maps that we would be prepared to show the Commission
that will show you the effective impact to CHAY-FM in Barrie.
4332 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you understand that this is not
our realm. The technical brief and technical acceptance is given by Industry
4333 You have experience in the broadcasting sector, that
one way is Industry Canada says no there won't be therefore there is no problem,
another is CHAY agrees, under whatever terms, to say, "I don't need the
protection." Is that the case?
4334 MR. WOOD: Yes. I guess if we were given the lower
power frequency only, we would of course accept whatever the Commission is
prepared to award. We would do so in the knowledge, first of all, that we
wouldn't be able to reach the full GTA, but at the same time we would indeed
talk to the people at Chorus at that time again to ask if they would
4335 Secondly, we would talk to Industry Canada, and we
would be optimistic that Industry Canada would permit the consent that we are
looking for, not only because of the precedent but because the area of
interference that we will cause to CHAY-FM from Barrie in Toronto proper --
it's only a small pocket of Toronto that we will impact on them, it's not part
of their natural trading zone -- that Industry Canada, recognizing that the
impact is no greater than what it was in 1990, would allow us at that point to
expand the signal. In effect, we would be back to you within months with a
proposal to expand the frequency with Industry Canada.
4336 THE CHAIRPERSON: But none of the documentation that
you would file to get expanded coverage is with us now.
4337 MR. WOOD: That's correct.
4338 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you acknowledge that you would
need a new application with new documentation --
4339 MR. WOOD: Yes.
4340 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- from Industry Canada and/or
Chorus depending on what the predicted interference would be. I don't know
whether testing would be possible, but normally it would be mathematically
constructed as to whether there is, and, as I say, there are two possibilities:
Industry Canada could say, no, there won't be; and/or there will be, might be,
and Chorus agrees.
4341 I just wanted to clarify that, that there wasn't a
part of the decision I was missing, that your waiver was read in that sentence
in the context at the time and under a different frequency.
4342 Thank you.
4344 MR. RHÉAUME: I don't have any questions at this time,
Madam Chairman. Thank you.
4345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4346 Commissioner Grauer.
4347 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So if you would like to answer
any questions we haven't asked and tell us why your application would be the
best use of these frequencies, we would be pleased to hear from you.
4348 MR. AUGUSTE: We have a plan that we have put together
that will be inclusive of the diverse visible minority communities in this city
that have so far been excluded from the airwaves, or so far felt excluded,
rightly or wrongly.
4349 We believe it is important -- I mean, you are
talking about 50 per cent, thereabouts, of the city. I mean, things have changed
so rapidly in the last 20 or 25 years, but there is that need, and we have a
plan to meet that need. It is a badly underserved segment of the market and our
plan fits that bill. We are the only applicant with a plan to serve this wider
community. You are talking about a couple of million people that presently are
not reflected in the mainstream of other radio service.
4350 We will provide a diverse and unique programming
service that will meet the needs of this community with a blend of music that
will appeal to a wide cross-section, again, not just of this community but also
the wider community. So we are talking a reach that, for all intents and
purposes, will reflect Toronto, the present, current face of Toronto.
4351 We will provide an opportunity for our young artists
especially, but, for our artists who, until now, have not had an opportunity to
have their work exposed in an open -- or have easy access to the kind of
exposure that they need to grow and develop.
4352 We have artists here who have to leave Toronto to go
to the States to be recognized. And they are recognized. It means that they are
that good. They can go down there where the market is so saturated and still do
well. Could you imagine what will happen if they had that opportunity here, and
could you imagine with all the other young artists out there who don't have the
wherewithal to go to the States and develop down there? So this is a wonderful
opportunity for them as well.
4353 We also are looking at, as I said earlier, our young
people and a way to reach our young people. I mean this is something that has
been really heavy on my mind and something that is going to be a key focus of
this station, reaching our young people with a positive message, getting them
back on track those who are off track, and those who are on track, celebrating
their achievements, celebrating them, and sharing their successes with the wider
4354 One of the things I have looked at in the last while
is that we -- you know, in our society, the window we have on the world is
the media. Most of our opinions are formed by what we read and see in the media.
Right now there is one window. A lot of panes, but one window. When people look
into that window at our community, they have basically one perspective. We will
provide another perspective, another window, so at least there is a balanced
perspective. We are going to speak with our voice. We are going to express our
concerns, our hopes, our dreams, and we are going to provide an opportunity for
the wider society to see us as we really are.
4355 We have a solid business plan. We have good partners.
Like I say, I'm very, very proud to have Bob Wood on this team. He brings a
wealth of experience, he brings all kinds of talent. This is a guy who --
that is his life. Having worked with me -- I was going to say "for me", but
with me, you know, it brings a new dimension, a special dimension to this
4356 Also having the NewCap Corporation involved with Mr.
Steele, they are respected broadcasters, they are a respected corporation in
this country. Mr. Steele himself, I know he might not be happy with me saying
this, but this gentlemen is member of the Order of Canada. He is a respected
businessman. He is somebody who is -- you know, when I started this
process, I know they were checking me out. I was checking them out too.
Everything I heard about this gentleman and about his company was so amazing, so
good. That has been borne out, you know, in the last few months since we have
4357 We have a good team. We have a solid financial plan.
We have I think more money than we are going to need, and if what you are saying
here about our projections being low, you know -- I mean, that is, you are
saying that for us, if our projections are -- if the reality is better than
our projections, we probably wouldn't even need all that money, but at least
it's there in case we ever need it.
4358 So in terms of what we are proposing, I don't see how
this can't work. In terms of the -- as we talked about that signal, I leave
this up to you. We want to serve our community well. We feel we can do that with
what we have asked for.
4359 I don't want you to have any problems with me and my
last one, what I'm going to ask you. I'm going to leave this with you; I am
going to trust your good judgment. One last thing I would say is that whoever
gets the signal I think they are going to have problems. We have two applicants
from our community. We need this station in our community. If you feel that my
application doesn't meet your requirements, I urge you to licence my
application, but one of us. We need this in a swift time.
4360 Thank you.
4361 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very much, Mr.
4362 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Auguste and your
4363 MR. AUGUSTE: Madam Commissioner, before I finish,
could I ask Mr. Caudeiron to add his few cents to this, if you don't
4364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course.
4365 MR. CAUDEIRON: Just to let the Commissioners leave on
4366 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not of the --
4367 MR. CAUDEIRON: No. It's not about anything other than
sharing with you the SHARE sound and leaving you in a higher state of mind than
you came in this morning, I hope.
4368 On behalf of all the artists who would be heard for
the first time and all of the time on this new radio station, the SHARE sound:
the sound, the sound, the SHARE sound is bounce and prance and bounce and dance,
the SHARE sound is fad joints, bamba sounds, soul grooves, club moves, Latin
loops, reggae boops, roots manoeuvres and future flavours, olé, olé, olé, olé,
uptown, downtown, all around, and I'm a three-piece suit dancing, that sound,
that sound, a super sound, a passionate sound.
--- Applause / Applaudissements
4369 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mr. Evanov will really be
--- Laughter / Rires
4370 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will see you late in
4371 We will take a fifteen-minute break, but Mr.
Secretary has an announcement first.
4372 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would
just like to make an announcement.
4373 I have just been advised that, with great regret, St.
Sava's Radio has withdrawn its application from this hearing. Notwithstanding
this withdrawal, we will still stay with our plan and hear the applications by
914258 Ontario and Radio 1540 tomorrow, and Phase II Monday morning.
4374 Thank you very much.
--- Recess at 1047 / Suspension à 1047
--- Upon resuming at 1105 / Reprise à 1105
4375 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous
4376 Mr. Secretary.
4377 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
4378 We now actually have two applications, first of all,
by Fairchild Radio (Toronto) Ltd. for a broadcasting licence to carry on a
specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking at Toronto.
4379 The new station would operate on frequency 93.5 MHz,
channel 228B, with an effective radiated power of 1,430 watts upon surrender of
the current licence issued to CHKT Toronto. The new FM station would replace AM
station CHKT. The applicant proposes to continue to offer an ethnic radio
4380 By condition of licence, the applicant will direct
programming to a minimum of 14 cultural groups in a minimum of 15 different
languages per broadcast week.
4381 The applicant is also requesting permission to
broadcast simultaneously on the AM and FM bands for a period of three months
before surrendering the current licence issued to CHKT.
4382 The Commission notes that this application is
technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing
for the use of the 93.5 MHz frequency.
4383 The Commission also notes that this application is
mutually exclusive with an application filed by the same applicant to amend the
broadcasting licence of the radio programming undertaking CHKT Toronto. The
applicant proposes to change the frequency from 1430 kHz to 740 kHz, and to
relocate the transmitter to a new site at Hornby, Ontario as an alternative to
the proposed new FM station at Toronto.
4384 The applicant will continue to operate this station
as an ethnic radio service.
4385 The Commission notes that this application is
technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing
for the use of the 740 kHz frequency.
4386 I would now like welcome Mr. Chan and his
4387 Mr. Chan, whenever you are ready.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
4388 MR. CHAN: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we
are pleased to have this opportunity to discuss our applications to move our
Toronto ethnic radio service, CHKT, to the 93.5 FM frequency, or alternatively,
to 740 AM.
4389 First, I would like to introduce our panel. My name
is Joe Chan, and I am the General Manager of Fairchild Media Group. On my left
is Calvin Wong, General Manager of Fairchild Radio; and on my right is our
regulatory counsel, Tracey Pearce of Goodman Phillips & Vineberg. Behind me
on the left is Gary Nobody, Station Manager of CHKT 1430; beside Gary is Gordon
Elder of Elder Engineering Inc.; and beside Gordon is Donnie Tong, Operations
Manager of Fairchild Radio.
4390 MR. WONG: Although there are a number of proposals
for 93.5 FM and 740 AM, we feel there are compelling reasons why Fairchild Radio
should be awarded one of these frequencies.
4391 First, our service meets the Broadcasting Act
objectives laid out in the Order in Council by reflecting the diversity of
cultures in Toronto and recognizing the multicultural, multilingual nature of
4392 Second, CHKT is a service with a proven track record
that has come to be depended on by thousands of people from a wide range of
ethnic communities in Toronto. For many people, it is the only source of local
news and information.
4393 Third, CHKT faces a very serious threat to its
existence. The City of Toronto has indicated it will not provide Fairchild with
a new lease for our transmitter site when it expires in less than two years. As
we will explain in greater detail, this means that without access to an
alternate frequency this valuable service will be forced off the air.
4394 MR. CHAN: As you know, the Order in Council directed
the Commission to reserve the 93.5 FM and 740 AM frequencies in Toronto for
services which meet the objectives set out in section 3 of the Broadcasting Act.
In particular, these frequencies are to be awarded to services which contribute,
both in terms of programming and employment opportunities, to Canada's
diversity, including its multicultural and multiracial nature. The promotion of
multiculturalism and linguistic diversity is especially important in Toronto,
the most ethnically diverse city in Canada, where more than half our residents
are of ethnic origins other than English or French.
4395 CHKT AM 1430 is a service which clearly reflects this
diversity. It was licensed in October 1996 and has been providing ethnic radio
service to Toronto residents for almost three years now. Today, 100 per cent of
programming, or over 126 hours each week, is devoted to ethnic programming to 19
different cultural groups in 20 different languages, exceeding the requirements
of our conditions of licence. CHKT is the sole source of third-language
programming for at least five of these communities.
4396 Our schedule has been carefully designed to best meet
the needs of Toronto's very diverse market, and we work closely with all of the
different communities we serve to create programming that is relevant to
4397 In terms of employment, CHKT actively recruits
members of visible minority groups, for example, by working with the Chinese
Information and Community Services of Greater Toronto. We train individuals with
little or no broadcasting experience, enabling them to deliver service to their
communities and ensuring a growing pool of talented ethnic broadcasters.
Fairchild Radio has further demonstrated its commitment to the training of young
talent with the creation of $160,000 endowment in the broadcasting program at
Ryerson Polytechnic University. CHKT employs more than 50 people, almost all of
whom are members of a visible minority group, and we are pleased to say that 57
per cent of our announcers and reporters are women.
4398 MR. NOBODY: We are proud of the incredible range of
ethnic groups served by our programming and the contribution we make to meeting
the significant demand for a third-language service. Chinese programming in both
Mandarin and Cantonese sustains our service, drawing close to 120,000 listeners.
However, CHKT also provides programming to Tamils, Greeks, Croatians and
Filipinos, to name just a few. Many of the groups we serve, such as the
Cambodian and Thai communities, are relatively small and have few opportunities,
if any, to have issues of concern to them addressed by local media. CHKT's
programming has come to be relied on, particularly in communities with many
members who are not fluent in English and those with no other media outlet in
Canada's largest city.
4399 We are proud of our intensely local service. CHKT
provides over 120 hours of local programming and each week, including frequent
news, weather and traffic updates throughout the day in the language then being
broadcast. The majority of our programming consists of talk shows on regional
and local topics of concern, ranging from general issues such as health care,
municipal politics or arts and culture in Toronto, to issues of specific
interest to individual communities. For example, every year our Jamaican program
is broadcast live from the Caribana festival. Similarly, the producer of our
Punjabi program often arrange for live coverage of important events, such as the
Indian New Year celebrations.
4400 In addition, in communities where there are a
significant number of listens who do not speak fluent English, we provide the
invaluable service of ensuring the regular broadcast of basic information on
healthcare, education, tax matters and voting procedures.
4401 Finally, we are proud of our commitment to Canadian
talent development. Fairchild Radio has committed more than $28,000 in direct
costs and $50,000 in indirect costs each year to support the development of
Canadian talent in our ethnic communities.
4402 Our Canadian talent development initiatives are
directly targeted to supporting the development of ethnic artists and their
music. For example, we provide funding and support to a national Chinese
songwriting competition. The winners of the contest are given the opportunity to
perform live in a concert sponsored by CHKT at the Canadian National Exhibition.
We sponsor a similar international songwriting competition among all of the
communities we serve. We are committed to continuing all of our Canadian talent
development initiatives if awarded one of these frequencies. This commitment
represents more than $540,000 over the seven-year licence term.
4403 MR. WONG: Unlike the other ethnic applications before
you this week, we are looking for a new home for an existing service. Our
preference is for the 93.5 FM frequency because it has significantly lower
ongoing technical expenses than the 740 AM. However, we would be pleased to
continue our service on either the AM or the FM band. If we are awarded a new
frequency, CHKT will surrender its licence for AM 1430.
4404 Without a new frequency, CHKT -- a service which
is a vital source of information and cultural programming to dozens of people in
many different ethnic communities in Toronto -- may soon be forced off the
air. You asked us in the deficiency process if the "door is closed" on any lease
renewal for our transmitter site. Based on the city's response, it is clear to
us that the door is closed.
4405 At the time of the last renewal, our landlord, the
City of Toronto, removed any further right to renew the lease when it expires at
the end of 2001. Since that time and since our purchase of the assets of CHKT,
residents of the Toronto Islands were successful in having a public school
built. That school is located adjacent to the transmitter site and many
islanders now want to see the transmitters go. They have begun to apply pressure
to the city not to negotiate a new lease.
4406 As you know, we have approached the city several
times about entering into a new lease for the site, and the city has provided us
with no assurance that it will even begin such negotiations. In fact, our most
recent correspondence from the city clearly states that the lease will expire on
December 31st, 2001, and that Fairchild has no further right of
4407 As the report from our engineer shows, there are no
other suitable sites from which we can broadcast at our current frequency, and
93.5 FM and 740 AM are the only available frequencies adequate for CHKT's
service. The lack off alternative transmission sites has also been confirmed by
Industry Canada. If, as the city has now indicated, a new lease is not provided,
CHKT will go off the air. This would be a great loss for Toronto, for the ethnic
communities who rely on our service and for the Canadian broadcasting
4408 For your convenience, we have attached to our
presentation copies of the relevant letters from the City of Toronto, our
engineer, and Industry Canada. All of these materials were previously filed with
4409 MR. CHAN: In summary, Madam Chair, Members of the
Commission, CHKT is a service with a proven record of providing relevant
programming to numerous ethnic communities in Toronto in a variety of different
languages. It is a service which is relied upon by thousands of listeners who
have no other voice in the media. It is a service of which we, and the
communities we serve, are fiercely proud. Without the new frequency, the
existence of that service is threatened. If CHKT is forced off the air at the
end of 2001, we believe it will be a great loss, not only for Toronto but for
ethnic broadcasting in Canada.
4410 We welcome any questions that you may
4411 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chan, and your
4412 Commissioner Wilson, please.
4413 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Good morning, Mr. Chan.
Thank you for being with us this morning.
4414 Since this is not an application for a brand new
station -- you have pointed out you are already existing in the
market -- I don't have as many questions on some areas of your application
that the other applicants are having to go through with us. And amazingly you
have anticipated a lot of the questions that I had in your opening presentation,
and, I mean, I will tell you as I go through what those questions were but you
have given me some answers to some of those questions in your presentation this
4415 So I do have just a couple of areas that I want to
clarify with you, and then I really want to turn to the technical issue, because
that is the fundamental reason for the application.
4416 MR. CHAN: Of course.
4417 COMMISSIONER WILSON: The first area that I was going
to explore with you, and I will look at one aspect of it, is the new ethnic
policy. And I noticed in your application, in sections 7.4 and 7.5, where it
talked about local content, you have put "No change contemplated" and "Not
applicable". I realize now that the "No change contemplated" is because you are
doing such a high degree of local programming.
4418 MR. CHAN: That's correct.
4419 COMMISSIONER WILSON: As you stated this morning.
4420 So I don't need to ask you to clarify that because,
as you know, under the new ethnic policy we are asking ethnic broadcasters to
describe to us, at renewal or licensing, what kinds of things they are going to
be doing to reflect their local communities. You seem to be doing that very well
4421 The other aspect of the ethnic policy that I just
wanted to ask you about was the notion of the broad service rule, where you come
in to apply for a licence and then we ask to you serve a certain number of
communities in a certain number of languages.
4422 Under the new ethnic policy, as you know, we have
taken a slightly different approach in markets where there are multiple
broadcasting outlets for ethnic communities. I am just wondering if you had
thought about that at all when you were putting your application together, if
you had considered sort of focusing your programming in a little bit
4423 I am not suggesting that you should, I am just asking
if you had considered it because this is a pretty new policy that we have. It is
something that I like to have the opportunity to explore with you while you are
4424 MR. WONG: Yes, Madam Commissioner. I think in our
application four years ago we sort of took that into consideration, the existing
ethnic broadcaster, what they were doing during that time. So we sort of set our
focus on the Asian population in the GTA area, and that is what we have been
doing for the last three years. That proved to be quite successful, that is why
we didn't contemplate any change in our programming or the number of services we
offer, the number of languages we offer in our service.
4425 MS PEARCE: If I could just add,
4426 CHKT fills an important niche in the community and,
as Calvin has stated clearly, the focus is on programming directed to the
Chinese community. That being said, as you can tell, from 19 different cultural
groups and 20 different languages, they are serving an incredibly broad range of
communities. I think our view, the view of Fairchild, in looking at what they
provide to the community and what they would continue to provide to the
community, they really saw that as CHKT's role.
4427 So while we appreciate that the policy has changed
and we clearly looked at that, the decision was that CHKT is doing, we hope, a
very good job, believe a very good job of what it is doing now, and was best
suited to continuing to do that and serving that incredible range have a
4428 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thanks
4429 I guess, as you know -- and I believe Fairchild
was at the ethnic policy consultations that we had in Toronto -- one of the
comments that was made to the Commission during that whole exploration was the
fact that sometimes lots of communities are getting service but they are not
getting enough service, and so that was the thrust behind it. But, you, of
course, know your market far better than a regulator, so I am not questioning
that decision at all. I just wanted to have the opportunity to explore your view
on that, as I said. So thank you for that.
4430 As part of your supplementary brief, you filed a
programming schedule for the service as Appendix A. I don't know if you have
that with you. I just wanted to ask you a question of clarification on that. It
is a block diagram. It looks like this.
4431 MR. CHAN: Yes, we have that.
4432 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay.
4433 Is this program schedule representative of what you
have on the air right now?
4434 MR. CHAN: Yes, that's correct.
4435 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. So you carry your
Cantonese programming from noon until 7:00 p.m. seven days a week?
4436 MR. CHAN: Gary, would like to respond to this
4437 MR. NOBODY: Yes, that's correct,
4438 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's correct?
4439 MR. NOBODY: Yes.
4440 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay.
4441 And the Mandarin you do between 6:00 a.m. and 8:00
a.m. Monday to Friday.
4442 MR. CHAN: Yes.
4443 COMMISSIONER WILSON: And also from 7:00 p.m. to 8:00
4444 JOE CHAN: In the evening, yes.
4445 COMMISSIONER WILSON: In the evening.
4446 You are aware that you have a condition of licence
which restricts the broadcast of Mandarin to between 6:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m.
Monday to Friday, and I am just curious as to why the Mandarin programming shows
up at 7:00 p.m. as well.
4447 MR. WONG: If I may answer to that. It is that there
is a shift in the Chinese immigrants coming into Canada. The immigrants from
Hong Kong, which has been coming largely in the last ten to five years, they
mainly speak Cantonese, and the recent trend is that the immigrants coming in
from Hong Kong is decreasing while the immigrants coming from China is
increasing. A substantial percentage of immigrants coming from China speak the
dialect of Mandarin. That is why we increased the Mandarin broadcasting hour in
our total Chinese language programming.
4448 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Ms Pearce, you probably wanted
to say something.
4449 MS PEARCE: Yes. To the extent that the schedule is
not in compliance with the condition of licence, clearly it will be changed or
there will be an application submitted to the Commission.
4450 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you,
4451 The next area I want to look at with you is the area
of Canadian talent development. Once again you did anticipate me by going
through in your presentation this morning the commitments that you have made,
both direct and indirect, and as well the endowment at Ryerson, and I believe
you have a scholarship at BCIT. Can you just explain for me, how does the
4452 MR. WONG: That endowment provided to Ryerson
University is to support, and then there is a scholarship that was given to
those students that do have projects, audio projects, that emphasize and
concentrate on the multicultural aspect of the City of Toronto. So they send in
their projects and they apply for a funding scholarship from the endowment, and
then each year a substantial amount of money -- at this point according to
the university, they estimated about $20,000 will be granted each year to
student projects that expand on the multicultural aspect of the Toronto
4453 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Let me just ask you this
question. If you were awarded one of the frequencies as a result of your
applications today, would you continue those commitments that you
4454 MR. WONG: Yes, we will.
4455 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay.
4456 You spent $28,000 a year on direct Canadian talent
development. Let me just flip to my page here. So there Is $28,000 in direct
costs, and $50,000 in indirect costs. Again, I am just sort of going back to the
ethnic broadcasting policy review that we held, but are you member of the
Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters?
4457 MR. NOBODY: Yes, we are, Commissioner.
4458 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You are?
4459 MR. NOBODY: Yes, we are.
4460 COMMISSIONER WILSON: As part of the ethnic policy
review, ethnic broadcasting policy review, it is actually in paragraph 36 of the
ethnic policy, the Ontario arm of the CAEB committed $3,000 a year to catalogue
ethnic music. I think it was agreed by a lot of parties who gave us input on
that policy that that catalogue of music was very important in terms of knowing
what your inventory was when you are going on the air.
4461 I don't think it is, based on the list that I have
here, but do you make a contribution to that?
4462 MR. NOBODY: Commissioner, no, CHKT does not
participate in the CAB plan, because the plan funds general talent development
in Canada, or the general Canadian music in Canada.
4463 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Yes. I think we might be talking
about two different things: one is the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, and
the other is the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters. Are you a member
of the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters?
4464 MR. WONG: Commissioner, if I may clarify that, at
this point, we are not a member of CAEB.
4465 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You are not a member.
4466 MR. WONG: So we haven't participated in the plan in
doing that catalogue.
4467 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Would that catalogue be of any
use to you?
4468 MR. WONG: Well, because what we think, and from our
experience, is that, at the moment, the amount of ethnic music produced in
Canada is very, very minimal, so that is why we devoted our direct contribution
of the CTD fund to the projects that we think really can increase and enhance
the actual production of the Canadian ethnic music.
4469 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. That is great. Thank you,
4470 Once again, if you were to be awarded one of the
frequencies as a result of these applications, you would continue the $28,000 in
direct contributions to Canadian talent development?
4471 MR. CHAN: Yes, we will.
4472 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. So that brings me to the
4473 I want to explore essentially a couple of areas with
respect to this, two or three areas, actually. One is what led you to your
preference of 93.5 versus 740, because you put in two applications, one for a
new FM licence and one for an amendment to your AM licence. You indicated that
93.5 was your preference, your preferred option.
4474 MR. CHAN: From the business end point of view, we
prefer 93.5, basically strictly from the annual maintenance cost of the tower,
strictly from that angle.
4475 If it is from the technical angle of looking at these
two frequencies, I would like perhaps Donnie, who is our Operations Manager,
perhaps and Mr. Gordon Elder, possibly the most experienced broadcasting
engineer in town, to answer these questions.
4476 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay.
4477 MR. TONG: Apart from the business aspect, the contour
of 93.5 FM, with the expanded contour in general, it is most comparable to our
existing coverage of AM 1430. AM 740 has a very good contour and coverage. It
covers basically half of Ontario, half of Southern Ontario, but the downtown
core coverage is somehow not as good as our current frequencies, but
AM 1430 is well known for its downtown coverage, so if you look for an
alternative any one of those would be adequate, but 93.5 would be our
4478 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I'm sorry. There is some kind of
computerized music playing in the background here. I'm sorry.
4479 MR. CHAN: Excuse me, maybe to further add to my
earlier comments is just to give you a comparison.
4480 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Sure.
4481 MR. CHAN: The annual costs for the technical
maintenance costs, say, for the FM tower is roughly about $100,000 a year, and
then for the AM it is about two hundred. Basically, for that reason, we would
prefer -- if we have a choice, we would prefer to have the FM.
4482 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I noticed that there was a large
difference in the cost. But the reason I am asking is because I know that the
population distribution for the communities that you are serving are changing
somewhat, the demographics are shifting northward and somewhat westward into
Markham and Richmond Hill, which is where I live. I believe that is where your
office is as well.
4483 It just struck me -- I mean, I know in your
financial projections you showed that there would be no significant difference
between the revenue streams that you would get for the AM versus the FM, but I
found that, just on an intuitive basis, a little hard to understand considering
that there is such a large Chinese population and it is spread over a fairly
wide geographic area now that certainly, I mean according to StatsCanada, and
you may have numbers that are more accurate than that, but, you know, the core
of Toronto may have the largest -- Scarborough, in fact, may have the
largest population, I think, if I have my numbers -- I hope I don't have
4484 So I was just curious that 740 wouldn't be your
preferred option since you might have the potential to increase your
listenership fairly substantially, and potentially your advertising revenues as
a result of that.
4485 MR. WONG: Yes, Commissioner. In fact our projection
is based on the census figure also. According to the Census '96 figure, we know
that 740 does have a larger coverage, and that the ethnic population within that
coverage is a little bit bigger than the existing 1430. However, our existing
1430 is able to serve the absolute majority of this population.
4486 When you mentioned about the Chinese-speaking
population in the Toronto area, our existing CHKT can reach 274,000 and, then,
with the expanded 740 AM it reaches 297,000. So it is just minimal increase of
about 20,000. So, to that effect, you know, we don't see that will increase
significantly in our advertising revenue.
4487 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So 1430 would cover Scarborough,
Toronto, North York, Markham, Mississauga, and Richmond Hill?
4488 MR. WONG: Yes.
4489 COMMISSIONER WILSON: It covers all of those areas.
And that is where the most significant population will be?
4490 MR. CHAN: Yes.
4491 Also, I may add that for the 93.5 FM also, by looking
at the contour map, it also covers the core of our business sources which
is -- including Scarborough, Richmond Hill, and Markham.
4492 COMMISSIONER WILSON: That's true, although the
strength of that signal, it gets a lot weaker as it gets towards Richmond Hill,
I believe, according to the map that was filed. I mean, you have got a 3
millivolt contour right in the core and then as it goes out it gets
4493 MR. CHAN: It's weaker but it is still acceptable to
4494 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay.
4495 I believe your engineer made a comment --
sorry -- Mr. Tong, you made a comment about 93.5 with expanded coverage.
What were you referring to?
4496 DONNIE TONG: I was referring to compared to other
applicants. Some use a lower powered transmitter, or coincides with CBC 99.1 in
which the contour would be somewhat restricted.
4497 When we first talked to Mr. Elder, we were exploring
suitable alternatives for CHKT. By looking at 93.5, we need a comparable contour
to our existing 1430 contour. Mr. Elder achieved that by designing a system
that, with its own antenna and a different antenna array, achieved the maximum
contour with all the protection transmitters and all the adjacent channels
4498 Maybe Mr. Elder can explain it a bit more.
4499 MR. ELDER: Madam Chair, Commissioners and Mrs.
4500 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Ms actually.
--- Laughter / Rires
4501 MR. ELDER: -- Ms Wilson, we optimized the use
of 93.5 by putting up an antenna that was custom designed for that purpose on
the only existing unoccupied short tower on the rooftop of First Canadian Place.
It's a real antenna farm up there, but this one is not used any more. It was the
first one used by a radio station up there many years ago.
4502 I believe that a far more important factor is the
lack of sites, alternate sites, and if you wish I will address that issue in
4503 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I think we will get there
through some of these question, and I'm sure, Mr. Elder, that you will jump in
and be able to help me with a couple of other questions that I have.
4504 Just turning now to the issue with the City of
Toronto, and thank you for attaching those letters to the back of your
presentation, which you had already filed.
4505 You talked in your presentation this morning --
this is all lawyer stuff. I'm not a lawyer, but -- about the fact that the
City of Toronto will not renew, and that you have approached the city several
times about entering into a new lease for the site, and I recognize the
distinction between those two things, so they have exhausted the right to renew
and you have approached them about getting a new one, and they have said that
they are not prepared to do it right now. Is that what they have
4506 MR. WONG: Yes, and that -- if I can have a
couple of minutes I would like to take you through the history of the lease at
the Centre Island.
4507 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. That's great.
4508 I have read the documents, I have read the original
lease to Foster Hewett Broadcasting, and a little bit of Canadian history there,
and I am quite familiar with Toronto Island, as well, but I would be very
interested to hear.
4509 MR. WONG: Yes. Then I will do that. Thank
4510 The origin lease for the transmitter site on Centre
Island was executed on July 14, 1970, between Foster Hewett Broadcasting and the
City of Toronto. It provided an initial term of ten years, expiring on December
31st, 1980. We have a right to renew for 21 years.
4511 Then, pursuant to an agreement dated October 10,
1980, this right of renewal was exercised and the lease was extended for a
further term expiring on December 31st, 2001. This 21-year renewal term was
subject to the same terms and conditions established in the original lease in
1970 with certain exceptions, including the most important one, the specific
elimination of any further right of renewal.
4512 Then Fairchild recently learned, through a review of
Toronto City Council minutes, that the lease was renewed in 1980 despite the
preference of the Commissioner of Parks and Property that it not be
4513 In 1981, the lease was assigned to Telemedia, and
when Fairchild acquired the assets of the station in 1996 the lease was assigned
by Telemedia to Fairchild.
4514 As provided in the lease, it will terminate on
December 31st, 2001, and the lease explicitly provided that it will have no
further right of renewal.
4515 So in early 1998, Fairchild approached one of the
city councillors responsible for the Centre Island regarding the initiation of a
negotiation for a new lease. Fairchild was eager to secure a new lease given the
importance of ensuring continued service to the community. We were advised that
we should speak to the appropriate city staff members, and we asked our legal
counsel to do so.
4516 Our legal counsel had numerous conversations with the
manager of property service at the City of Toronto explaining Fairchild's desire
to secure a lease of the transmission site beyond 2001. Staff were reluctant to
deal with the issue, as the expiry was then three years away, and because the
city administration was in a state of flux due to an amalgamation of the
mega-city. Nevertheless, our legal counsel explained the importance of a new
lease to CHKT and continued to seek a resolution with the city.
4517 At the same time, a public elementary school was
constructed on Centre Island adjacent to the transmitter site. The proximity of
our transmission tower to the school ground raised significant public concern.
In early 1999, a group of parents visited Fairchild expressing health and safety
concerns and asking us to move our transmission towers. Moreover, in a newspaper
article, in a Globe and Mail article, appearing in the same period, it was
reported that the majority of the islanders said the towers should be moved when
the lease came due in 2001 while a minority wanted them moved even before the
school opened in 1999.
4518 In light of these develops, Fairchild became
increasingly concerned about securing a new lease and continued to dialogue with
the city about the possibility of doing so. Despite our ongoing attempt by
Fairchild and our legal counsel throughout the last two years, we received no
indication from the city staff that a new lease would be offered for the use of
the Centre Island site.
4519 In late 1999, our regulatory counsel contacted city
staff in a further attempt to obtain a definitive statement regarding the
possibility of a further lease of the transmitter site. In response to that, the
city provided a letter in November 1999, which was filed with the Commission as
part of our application. Therein the city clearly states as follows, quote:
"...the Lease will terminate on December 31, 2001, and Fairchild Radio shall
have no further right of
4520 So, in our view, that statement clearly indicates, as
of January the 1st, 2002, Fairchild will no longer have access to the
transmitter site on the island.
4521 COMMISSIONER WILSON: That is why I said that this is
kind of lawyer stuff, because if they say that you will have no further right of
renewal, they are not saying that you won't have a new lease. That is the point
that I am trying to get to you in this, is that -- I mean, certainly I
understand your concern, but the renewal and a new lease are two separate
things, and I am just wondering if you had -- I guess what I'm saying is
that this tells me that they won't renew, this letter that you have filed. This
says to me the City of Toronto won't renew that lease, but it does not say to me
that they will not negotiate a new lease with you.
4522 MR. WONG: For the last two years we have been asking
the city to talk about it, and then up to this moment there is clearly no
indication they want to talk about it. At the same time, we are aware of the
increased public concern about our transmitter site. That creates a kind of
political climate that prevents, or I would say that makes the city -- that
they don't want to talk about renewal or starting the negotiations of a new
4523 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Is it just your transmitter
site? There is another broadcaster whose towers are on Toronto Island as
4524 MR. WONG: Yes, there is another transmitter site on
the Centre Island.
4525 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Are their towers near
4526 MR. WONG: Yes. In fact the school is right in the
middle of the two.
4527 COMMISSIONER WILSON: The school is right in the
middle of theirs and yours?
4528 MR. WONG: Yes.
4529 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Boy, I wonder who picked that
site for that school. I guess they had sunglasses on or something, they didn't
see the towers.
4530 Have you talked to the other broadcaster about their
status with the City of Toronto and their lease on the island?
4531 MR. WONG: We have not. We know that the islanders are
concerned about both towers and that we don't know about their situation and
when does their lease expire.
4532 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So you don't have any
information about what kind of a situation they might be in. I'm just wondering
if we should anticipate another application from them.
4533 MR. ELDER: I may be able to throw some light on this,
4534 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you,
4535 MR. ELDER: The other site which is occupied by CHIN
is immediately southwest of CHKT's, and it is on the former water filtration
plant that has been disused for a good many years. It is not parkland, it is
water purification land, which comes under a different jurisdiction within the
City of Toronto.
4536 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So they could be treated
differently because of that?
4537 MR. ELDER: They may well be. I am trying to steer
clear of leasing, so I will pass you over to others about that.
4538 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Well, it is interesting to know
4539 MR. WONG: Commissioner, if I may add that in the
intervention by CHIN, they didn't mention anything about the issue of our
concern on our transmitter site. So, in that sense, it may show that even CHIN
might have this concern later on.
4540 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I'm not sure I
4541 MR. CHAN: Okay. The second tower we are talking
about, we believe it belongs to CHIN.
4542 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Right.
4543 MR. CHAN: We know that their lease with City Hall
expires about three years after our expiry in 2001. I think their expiry is
around 2004, something around that area.
4544 In the intervention against us, they didn't mention
anything about our possibility of renewal, so probably they share the same
concern as ours.
4545 MS PEARCE: Just to follow on that, and echo what I
think Gordon was saying, you know, that this signal and contour may not give
rise to the same issues which flow from the problems with the lack of
availability of the Toronto Island site for CHKT for another broadcaster --
I won't go any further because that is engineering stuff, but I just wanted to
4546 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Sort of like that lawyer
4547 MS PEARCE: That's right. I wanted to clarify one
point on the lawyer stuff, which was that the Commission may be experiencing
some of the frustration which Fairchild had experienced in this situation in
trying to get clarification, and I certainly acknowledge your point about a
renewal versus a new lease.
4548 The city has not positioned their view on the
possibility of a new lease as they are not prepared to talk about it right now.
They have given us no indication that they are prepared to talk about it at all,
that they are prepared to negotiate in any respect, that they are considering a
new lease or that it is a possibility. They have been unequivocal about the
right of renewal. In the context of our ongoing and significant efforts with
them, and the other factors like the school and their clear statements with
respect to a renewal, which at the end of the day if you don't have a renewal or
you don't have a new lease it is the same result, you don't have a transmitter
site, Fairchild's reasonable conclusion is that it is not going to have access
to this site as of January 1, 2002.
4549 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I appreciate that clarification.
It sort of helps me connect the dots a little bit.
4550 Did you look at any other frequencies on the AM band
between 1605 and 1705, for example?
4551 MR. TONG: Yes, we did consider, and we have discussed
with Gordon Elder, both on the expanded AM band and also 106.3 or .5 on the FM
band, and, in summary, from Gordon Elder's advice and based on his studies and
experience, none of these frequencies were viable to serve CHKT's existing
4552 I would ask Gordon Elder to further
4553 MR. ELDER: It will be a very short
4554 AM frequencies have been extremely scarce here since
the 1940s. In 1984, the Bilateral Treaty with the United States provided 640 kHz
as the only new frequency for Toronto, which CHOG later obtained.
4555 The only other ones which have been available since
1992 are in the band extension from 1610 to 1700 kHz -- there are actually
two of them -- at a maximum power of 10 kilowatts a day and one kilowatt a
night towards the south.
4556 There is no vacant AM frequency whatsoever that could
replace CHKT's 1430 kHz as a viable alternative except 740 kHz. 93.5 MHz is the
only viable FM one, in my opinion.
4557 Finally -- last sentence -- experimental
digital radio presently broadcasting from the CN Tower, or an FM station
subsidiary channel, are not viable alternatives.
4558 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thanks, Mr. Elder, but I
guess the frequency that I want you to talk to me about is 1670.
4559 I have a couple of contour maps that were filed as
part of an application that was withdrawn from this hearing for 1670, and they
show that with one transmitter they could have served probably a good portion of
the area that 1430 serves. I would be curious as to, Mr. Elder, your
professional opinion on whether or not that is a reasonable possibility, and why
not. Maybe you could explain it to me in language I can understand.
4560 MR. ELDER: I would be happy to do that in simple,
4561 Was that application the one that we prepared the
technical brief for? I believe it probably was.
4562 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Yes, it was.
4563 MR. ELDER: The problem was the lack of suitable site.
I looked very hard and very long, and I thought I had obtained one that would be
acceptable to the City of Toronto. I had talked to and met many -- no, I
didn't really meet them -- I talked to them, I exchanged correspondence
with Bob Picket, the Director of Water Treatment, et cetera, finally, he was the
one who rejected the site that I finally homed in on for the simple reason that
there is a two-year study under way for water treatment and storm water
treatment. Therefore, this little site I had picked for 1670 -- which we
have changed to 1610 laterally -- was not acceptable administratively. Very
4564 And I can go into greater detail regarding the 1430
dilemma for you. Is it timely to do that now or we will wait?
4565 1610, remember, has poorer coverage than 1430, and
much, much broader coverage than the lower frequencies, but, yes, it was --
the coverage that my client would have received would have been a lot better
than nothing but not nearly as good as 1430 currently has.
4566 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You said in the information that
you put on file with us that in order to -- well, there are a couple of
opinions. One is that there really is no other location for the towers, for
1430, than on Toronto Island, and that you had explored the possibility of
moving the transmitter site somewhere south, the south end of Toronto on the
lakeshore. You just weren't able to find any place?
4567 I understand it would be more costly. I mean, the
cost of the Toronto Island lease had certainly increased quite substantially
over the years. There was absolutely no other site available for
4568 MR. ELDER: That is correct,
4569 I will just summarize the problems now.
4570 CHKT's transmission site must be centrally located
slightly south of Toronto's core area in order to protect other stations on or
near 1430 kHz, and to provide satisfactory primary service. Based on my own
experience between 1960 and last summer, searching for a suitable
administratively acceptable AM transmitter site in the Toronto area is like
looking for a proverbial needle in a haystack.
4571 Many engineering, environmental, aeronautical,
zoning, health, safety factors, together with other Industry Canada rules and
municipal ones, determine the suitability and acceptability of a proposed AM
transmitting site. In addition, community opposition often arises due to visual
impact and the not-in-my-backyard syndrome.
4572 As Toronto's population has grown since World War II,
the islands have become increasingly important and protected due to their
unique, readily accessible parks, gardens, yacht clubs, experimental farm and
recreational areas for citizens' enjoyment, city airport and residential area on
4573 As previously noted, new AM sites on Toronto Island's
parks and recreation land are prohibited by a by-law. Elsewhere on the islands,
they would also conflict with aviation and other uses.
4574 Quite simply, it is clear that the political climate
is such that the City of Toronto would not provide an alternative site for
CHKT's transmitting system on the islands, as evidenced by their indication that
the present lease will not be renewed.
4575 Site sharing CHKT and CHIN is completely impractical
due to many resulting engineering complications.
4576 Secondly, a Lake Ontario site, that is, with the
towers in the water, would not be technically or economically feasible or
administratively acceptable. I say that because we had one way back for
4577 Thirdly, lakeshore sites in downtown Toronto
sufficiently large to accommodate CHKT's seven-acre transmission system are
simply not available. The lakefront in Toronto is subject to a comprehensive
redevelopment and beautification proposal by the city.
4578 The relocation of CHKT's radio transmission towers
would be entirely inconsistent with these plans, not to mention various
environmental constraints, zoning issues, aesthetics and community concerns
which would prohibit the use of downtown lakeshore property for a transmitting
4579 Further afield, virtually no potential lakeshore
sites between Mississauga and St. Catharines remain available, and any that
do are slated for various important uses such as recreational or future
development. I say that from personal experience. I have worked for many radio
stations and gone meeting farmers and landowners and realtors, and so on, all
along that lakeshore area. CHKT's seven-acre high-powered transmitting system
would be highly incompatible with these other lakeshore uses.
4580 Moreover most of CHKT's listeners would no longer
receive strong enough signals for satisfactory service from these locations.
Therefore, if such changes were proposed, they would be technically unacceptable
to Industry Canada for a Toronto station.
4581 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Elder. I
appreciate having someone with your breadth of experience with us to explain
some of these issues.
4582 Is it fair to ask if you are looking forward to
4583 MR. ELDER: Would you say again, please?
4584 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I said, is it fair to ask if you
are looking forward to digital radio?
4585 MR. ELDER: Not in my time.
--- Laughter / Rires
4586 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I guess I just have one other
4587 Actually, I will just see if counsel has any
questions, Madam Chair, and then I will come back to you.
4588 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?
4589 MR. RHÉAUME: Thank you, Madam Chair. Very
4590 Mr. Chan, I'm sure your counsel can advise you that a
breach of a condition of licence is serious lawyer stuff, so when do you expect
to be in compliance with the condition you discussed with Commissioner
4591 MR. CHAN: I think we understand what you are talking
about. We are going to fix this immediately.
4592 MS PEARCE: And we will advise the
4593 M. RHÉAUME: Merci.
4594 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4595 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I want to provide you with the
opportunity to summarize why you feel that your application -- what the
compelling reasons are for granting your application as opposed to the
applications of other parties which are technically mutually exclusive from
4596 I guess the one argument I would like to hear you
address in particular is, in view of the fact that the FM is the most attractive
band for music, and your station is essentially a talk station, why should we
give the last remaining FM frequency, the fourth time last remaining frequency,
to your station as a talk station over applicants who are applying for a music
4597 This is your opportunity to put forward your most
compelling reasons. I realize that there are business reasons for doing that,
and I am not making any decision or comment about that whatsoever. I just want
to provide you with the opportunity because that is certainly a comment that
people would make because the FM frequency would be so attractive for a music
station as yours is more a talk station.
4598 MR. CHAN: I understand your question. Perhaps I will
just address your question first and then I will come to our summary,
4599 I think you put it very right that to the mainstream
radio industry FM is a very sought-after property. Then, to the ethnic radio
industry, since, as you said, we are mostly a spoken-word format, to us FM or
AM, you know, wouldn't make a lot of difference in terms of the ability to
solicit advertising -- and I will come to that later -- but we are
here as a matter of survival. We have to cling on whatever we can get from the
4600 Thank you for the opportunity for me to summarize. I
know I have five minutes.
4601 COMMISSIONER WILSON: You have been paying attention
to all of the other applicants, I see.
4602 MR. CHAN: Yes. Yes.
4603 I would like to summarize, first of all, the reasons
why we are here today into six key points.
4604 Before I move on, perhaps I would reiterate once
again the reason why we are here.
4605 We are here not to add a new licence in addition to
our existing one. We are not here to flip a licence for some tangible benefit.
We like the current frequency, 1430. We are proud of what we are doing now. What
we want to do is to have CHKT, the ability to continue our service to the
4606 Reason number one is we believe that without access
to one of these alternative frequencies CHKT will go off the air when the
existing transmitter site lease expires by December 31st, 2001. All the evidence
before us today indicates that the site lease will not be renewed. As Mr. Wong
has explained clearly, in spite of all the negotiations we have had with City
Hall, we had to come to a conclusion that a site lease will not be renewed.
Indeed, the city recently confirmed in writing -- I will just read it, to
"...the Lease will terminate on December 31, 2001 and Fairchild Radio shall
have no further right of
4607 At the same time we were negotiating with City Hall
we did try to go out to find an alternative site. We hired Gordon Elder, the
best possible broadcasting engineer in town. As he explained earlier, his
conclusion also came out to -- that no possible site is available that was
available for CHKT, and that it would not continue to operate from the present
site, it would have to shut down.
4608 Mr. Elder's finding was further echoed by a broadcast
spectrum engineer at Industry Canada in a letter to us last year saying, to
"...if CHKT is no longer permitted to use its current site, or a suitable
alternate ... site [on the island], it will not be able to serve Toronto on
4609 Mr. Elder has also helped in trying to find an
alternative site or an alternative frequency other than the two frequencies we
are talking about today. His finding also concluded that no other frequencies
are available which could adequately serve CHKT's Toronto audience.
4610 So, in summary, transferring to either 740 AM or 93.5
FM is the only option we have to prevent CHKT from going off the air.
4611 Our reason number two is granting CHKT the use of
93.5 FM or 740 AM will satisfy the requirements of the Order in Council by
contributing to the achievement of the objectives of the Canadian Broadcasting
Act. CHKT meets all the requirements by contributing to the diversity in
culture, as well as recognizing the multiracial heritage within the Canadian
society, especially Toronto. One hundred per cent of our programming is directed
to the ethnic audience.
4612 As we mentioned earlier, CHKT is currently serving 19
different cultural groups in 20 different languages, which is exceeding the
original expectation of 14 and 15. Among them, five of these ethnic groups have
never been served by any media before.
4613 Reason number three, CHKT is already a proven
contributor to the Toronto radio market. There is a huge demand for our service.
A recent AC Nielsen Chinese radio index indicated that CHKT is the most listened
to radio station among all the ethnic radios.
4614 CHKT currently provides 120 hours of local
programming, so over 75 per cent is spoken-word formats emphasizing on news and
4615 Reason number four is CHKT has a significant
contribution to Canadian talent development, which we discussed about it
earlier. Fairchild has committed to provide, and will continue to provide,
$28,000 directly each year to direct expenditures, and $50,000 in indirect
expenditures to CTD initiatives, so therefore leading to over $540,000 over the
seven-year term period.
4616 CHKT used particular efforts to groom and train
Canadian talent and to promote and grow the amount of available ethnic
4617 Reason number five is Fairchild Radio operates only
one station in Toronto, and as such CHKT represents an important and independent
voice and contributes to the diversity of news in the community, in the City of
4618 Last but not least, moving CHKT to 93.5 or 740 AM
will have no impact whatsoever on existing broadcasters. CHKT is an existing
service. We propose no change in the schedule and we project no change in our
revenue. As a result, a move to 93.5 FM or 740 AM will have no impact on
other radio stations in the market.
4619 So, in closing, Fairchild submits that CHKT should be
awarded either one of these frequencies because without access to these two
frequencies we believe the station will go off air next year. Licensing CHKT
would meet all the objectives of the Broadcasting Act highlighted by the Order
in Council. CHKT is the best possible use of one of these frequencies because it
is a proven contributor to the Toronto radio market.
4620 Thank you.
4621 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chan.
4622 I suspect that a slight amendment should have been
made to your second last point, that you will make a change to your
4623 MR. CHAN: Of course.
4624 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chan and colleagues.
We will see you later in the week, no doubt.
4625 We will adjourn for the day today and resume tomorrow
morning with the numbered company application.
4626 Thank you very much.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1220, to resume
on Friday, February 4, 2000 at 0900 / l'audience
est adjournée à 1220, pour reprendre le vendredi
4 février 2000 à 0900