TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/
DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 1, 2000 le 1er février 2000
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
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either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
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membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
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participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Broadcasting Applications and Licences/
Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion
BEFORE / DEVANT:
A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente
M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère
J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller
R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller
C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère
A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
P. Cussons Hearing Manager and Secretary / Gérant de l'audience et
D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson
MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal
2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele
Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)
February 1, 2000 le 1er février 2000
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
Durham Radio Incorporated 2
Questions by the Commission 20
Questions by Commission Counsel 83
CKMW Radio Limited 90
Questions by the Commission 109
La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc. 191
Questions by the Commission 205
Questions by Commission Counsel 245
Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 1, 2000
at 0904 / L'audience reprend le mardi
1er février 2000, à 0904
1573 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Welcome back to our
1574 Mr. Secretary.
1575 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
1576 Our first applications today are by Durham Radio
Incorporated, to amend the broadcasting licence for CJKX-FM Ajax by adding a
transmitter at Toronto operating on frequency 93.5 MHz (channel 228A) with an
effective radiated power of 205 watts; or to amend the broadcasting licence for
CJKX-FM by adding a transmitter at Toronto operating on frequency 106.3 MHz
(channel 292A1) with an effective radiated power of 63 watts.
1577 The Commission notes that the 106.3 MHz frequency is
requested by the applicant in the event that the 93.5 MHz frequency is granted
to another applicant, and that these applications are technically mutually
exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing for the use of the
93.5 and 106.3 MHz frequencies.
1578 We have Mr. Kirk and his colleagues.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
1579 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Mr. Cussons.
1580 Good morning.
1581 Before we begin I just want to give you a 30-second
snapshot in a video form of CJKX-FM.
--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
1582 MR. KIRK: A formal good morning. We will play you a
bit more later.
1583 Chairman Wylie, Commissioners Noël, Grauer, Wilson,
Pennefather, Cardozo and Williams, my name is Doug Kirk by the way and before I
begin I want to introduce the applicant and the panel a little more fully for
1584 Durham Radio Inc. is the owner of CJKX-FM. It's an
independently owned company. I own it with my wife Mary who is in the audience
today. We, with 19 extremely dedicated professional broadcasters operate this
radio station on the east side of Metro Toronto.
1585 Our current frequency of 95.9 is based in Ajax and we
have a supplementary repeater station at 89.9 MHz in Sunderland, Ontario which
is just south of Lake Simcoe. Right now we are Durham's number one originating
1586 We commenced operations in November of 1994 on the
conversion of an AM station which had been in the country format for about 25
years. So overall we have a 30-year country music heritage with this radio
1587 We operate in this market. We know the challenges and
opportunities ahead for any new entrant into the Toronto market.
1588 Before we highlight our presentation, I just want to
introduce our team this morning. You know me and on my right is Steve Kassay.
Steve has been with CJKX since inception. Steve is Operations Manager and
Program Director of the radio station.
1589 To Steve's right is Adrian Vogel. Adrian is in charge
of artist liaison and music promotion and continuity with artists and Canadian
music development at the station.
1590 On my left is Steve Macaulay. Steve is operating the
presentation today. Steve is General Sales Manager at CJKX.
1591 Behind me in the back row I have Jerry Archer who is
immediately behind me. Jerry is the morning co-host at CJKX-FM and with Jerry
today we have three of Canada's -- two, and one on the way, of Canada's
finest new country artists. We have Thomas Wade who is on the far right and Jim
Witter on the left. Beverley Mahood is commuting today from Kitchener and we
hope is not seriously delayed and is in transit and will join us.
1592 We are here to secure your approval to provide
Canada's largest city with new country radio. The Commission has an opportunity
to approve three applications. We urge the Commission to do so, thereby
maximizing the use of the radio spectrum in Toronto.
1593 There are three frequencies available at 93.5-FM,
106.3-FM and 740-AM. I guess you have heard this before, but these are the last
available FM frequencies in the Toronto area. It seems like there has been about
three hearings on the last FM for the Toronto area, but these are much smaller
frequency channels and according to our consulting engineers they are
1594 In addition, there is a clear channel AM frequency
available for regional service for southern Ontario.
1595 We believe these frequencies should go to applicants
who demonstrate that their service will add diversity to programming and serve
the largest audience in the Toronto market. Now we will begin our
1596 I don't need to tell you that the Toronto market is
capable of handling additional radio service. It is Canada's largest radio
market. Its 1998 radio revenue was $149.9 million, up 10.9 per cent from the
previous year, or that's almost $15 million. The four year annual growth rate
has been 7.6 per cent.
1597 In the Commission's terms, PBIT, or profit before
interest and taxes, was $23.7 million, a very healthy market, up 26 per cent,
this is in 1998, up 26.1 per cent from 1997, the four year average annual growth
rate of 35.9 per cent.
1598 We expect that these trends have continued. The
economy is very strong in southern Ontario and particularly in Toronto. We think
that these revenue trends have been shown by other data which we don't have
privy to that the Toronto broadcasters gather. These trends are continuing and
the market is strong.
1599 I will turn it over to Steve Kassay now who will
review the current Toronto radio map. Steve.
1600 MR. KASSAY: Thank you, Doug.
1601 Good morning.
1602 The chart before you illustrates the make-up of the
Toronto market in terms of FM radio stations in three years in three columns,
coincidentally, years of public hearing. To read the chart properly, for
instance, the first line, "Adult Contemporary" there were four stations in 1990,
four in 1997 and four in the year 2000, the current year.
1603 Similarly, "Rock" two stations, two, and
1604 "Multicultural," two in 1990, two in 1997 and two in
1605 "Classical Jazz," two in 1990, three in 1997, three
1606 The "CHR" dance format, from zero in 1990 to two in
1997, three in 2000.
1607 The "News Talk" format, the "French" and the
"Country", zero at the start of the 1990s, one by 1997, presently
1608 Similarly, Toronto AM stations, the chart is read the
same way for "News Talk," "Oldies" and "Music" format, "Multicultural," "French"
and "Country" which has not seen a format in Toronto on the AM band since the
1609 I would like to introduce to you Jerry Archer who has
some comments on AM radio in Toronto during that time. Jerry.
1610 MR. ARCHER: Thank you, Steve.
1611 I think I have a unique insight as to the atmosphere
and what was happening. My experience in the country format in Toronto was
gained with a radio station known as Country 59. That insight included -- I
should mention that the station was located at No. 1 Yonge Street just for
historical facts. It was owned by Maclean-Hunter Limited at that
1612 Country 59, as a matter of fact, was the No. 1
country station in Canada. Clearly, I think that illustrates the strength of the
country format in Toronto. Our presence in Toronto facilitated artists
appearances, concerts, showcases, highlighting how a local, originating country
format with a strong signal can achieve and has achieved. Country 59's success
provided a stage for a new breed of artists, artists such as Jim Witter who is
present today and Jim will be talking later on, but Jim's success, along with
other emerging artists who are joining us here as well, have been affected
directly by the loss of an originating Toronto signal.
1613 Ten years ago country music was elevated to a new
level, which the format had never before experienced. In our current market,
KX-96 continues to see significant growth, as evidenced by the latest BBM
results in the fall of 1999.
1614 I would like to throw things over to Doug
1615 MR. KIRK: Thanks, Jerry.
1616 In the next few minutes we want to present the case
for country. It's the only mainstream format not available in Canada's largest
market. There is quantifiable proof of demand for the format in the market.
Also, the format has been financially successful in the past and, most
important, it's crucial to develop and support Canada's world class country
1617 Country music is the second most popular format in
Canada, as you can see, either in the books or on the screen next to AC. This
was from StatsCanada fall 1998 report released this July.
1618 If we look across the country at various markets,
country format market shares are varying, but do show good results across the
market. In Vancouver country music has a 5.2 share in the market. The station
ranks eighth out of 20, through Edmonton, Calgary, Regina shares in the teens.
Station rankings in the top three, often first, Winnipeg second with a 12.5
country music share in the market.
1619 Moving to markets in the eastern part of Canada,
London with a 9.2 share, the third-ranked station of 13 in the market; a 9.8
share in Ottawa, third of sixteen in the market and high teens market shares in
Halifax and St. John's. Again, well ranked, almost at the top of the
1621 MR. KASSAY: The country format share in Toronto,
looking in 1998, the last time the Toronto originating country FM took a full
BBM book, we can see it accomplished a five and a half share in the market, and
that ranked seven out of the twenty reporting stations in Toronto.
1622 Now, without the local originating station, fall
1999, we see the share drop to 1.3. That is a decline of 76 per cent.
1623 The market impact of the loss of the originating
country station on all persons, looking at the same time frames in terms of
hours tuned, 3.67 million hours, plummeting 69 per cent to 1.1
1624 In terms of the cumulative audience with the
originating station, 360,000 people. Without the originating station in Toronto,
1625 Our analysis clearly indicates a proven audience in
excess of 360,000 for a local originating country station, and with the loss of
the originating country station over 2.5 million hours per week of tuning to
country music has evaporated.
1627 MR. KIRK: I would just point out the 2.5 million
hours of tuning that has been lost to country music in Toronto is larger than
any other country station operating in Canada at the moment.
1628 To create this tuning we need a signal and in Map 1
on the screen now, and in your books, we had our consulting engineer create a
composite signal map of CJKX, as I mentioned, the main signal, based in Ajax in
Durham Region. The repeater signal at the top of the map based in Sunderland and
down at the bottom left would be the addition of the Toronto signal.
1629 The next map, Map 2, highlights our current
unimpaired signal coverage from the two existing transmitters for CJKX. That's
Map 2 highlighted in yellow.
1630 Of particular note is the grey area along the top of
the main transmitter, 95.9. That is impaired coverage because of adjoining or
closely spaced stations or co-channel stations where we experience interference
to our main signal.
1631 So, as you can see there, we cover a small part of
Scarborough with an unimpaired signal, but very little of the remainder of
1632 Going to Map 3 shows the additional coverage by
adding the Toronto transmitter. That's the 93.5 transmitter based in downtown
Toronto. You see it provides coverage to virtually all of Toronto and adding on
secondary coverage in the west part of the GTA and Mississagua and
1633 In our home market we have had a very successful run.
As I mentioned before, we are the number one originating station in the Durham
market, in the Oshawa-Whitby market. We rank third of all stations. We are ahead
of all but two of the Toronto stations in an extremely competitive
1634 We did some research, conducted some research from a
company by the name of Mobiltrak. Mobiltrak monitors in-car tuning. They have
monitoring stations throughout the city. They did this in the City of Toronto,
Markham, around through to Mississagua and we want to make a point here of where
we have signal and the results in Durham where our prime signal is speak for
themselves, and where we have strong signal we have strong tuning. These are the
Mobiltrak results on the screen and in the pages in the book shows in
Scarborough and, as I mentioned, we don't have a perfect signal in Scarborough,
but in Scarborough from Mobiltrak results in December shows CJKX as the sixth
ranked station with a 6.3 share in Scarborough.
1635 In Scarborough we have a good signal in about half of
it and impaired signal in the balance as you work west.
1636 CJKX stood up well with the Toronto stations, about
equal to Q-107, behind some of the very large Toronto stations, but certainly
ahead of other significant Toronto stations like CJEZ and CFNY. So we are proud
of what we are doing in the market. People in Scarborough where they can get the
signal like country music and tune us in.
1637 Making the point, as we work west with Mobiltrak data
on this part, these are samples taken from the City of Toronto, the old City of
Toronto, the core of the market. In this cell our signal, as shown on the map,
has declined and is impaired and you see our positioning share there has gone
from 6 per cent of tuning to six-tenths of 1 per cent -- in other words,
diminishing signal equals share decline.
1638 Moving out to Mississagua, in the Mississagua cell
that Mobiltrak ranked, a similar time frame. You can see a similar line-up of
large Toronto stations and where we have no signal we have no share. So clearly,
I think, this explains that country, where we can be received, is still very
vibrant and alive.
1639 Now, where we do not have signal country music has
1640 Steve will explain now how CJKX will evolve to serve
the Toronto market.
1641 MR. KASSAY: Thank you.
1642 Indeed, we are very proud of what we do. We will
serve Toronto by adding a Toronto studio and an office location. We have made
provisions to add the studio and office space.
1643 We are committed to expanding our news department to
include a Toronto-based reporter who would work in that location, providing on
the street, in the area presence daily to enhance our news service.
1644 We would reassign our artist liaison representative
to co-ordinate operations from the Toronto location, and we would adjust the
programming orientation of CJKX to include the balance of the City of
1645 MR. KIRK: In addition to programming and including
the City of Toronto within our station, we have made some substantial
commitments to develop Canadian country music.
1646 We have annual expenditures commencing at the
$125,000 level to be spent in the market in Toronto on the development and
promotion of Canadian country talent. As a key part of this we have planned to
revive the Canada Day Country Festival, which was a very successful,
high-profile event to promote Canadian country music. It has subsequently waned,
but we want to revive that event. It was a very high-profile event.
1647 And also, we will expand the already successful KX-96
Cradle to Rave Talent Search. This is a program we are running right now. It
runs in the east part of metro out of one of the major clubs in Oshawa and has
been successful in sourcing, finding talent. Steve is directly involved with
that, producing a demo tape, a high-quality session for up and coming new
1648 I will turn it over now to Adrian who will introduce
our artists and they will speak briefly to Canadian country music.
1649 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, Commissioners, joining us now,
Beverley Mahood has arrived and I will start with introducing Beverley. In
addition to being a multi-award winner in Canada, Beverley is one of our
greatest female country singers. Now she is still experiencing tremendous
success as a solo artist, but not good enough for Beverley. She has also created
a brand new all female Canadian band by the name of Lace.
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
1650 MS VOGEL: ...is Jim Witter. Jim is a Hamilton based
native country singer who is a nationally acclaimed songwriter and is one of
Canada's leading male vocalists. Also complementing Jim's talent are two Juno
nominees. Rumour has it more will be coming on Wednesday when they are being
read out, and two Canadian Country Music Awards have been won, over a dozen
1651 Directly behind me is Thomas Wade, with three Juno
nominations, seven Canadian Country Music Awards already added. Thomas has
already been recognized nationally as an extremely successful singer in his
band, Thomas Wade and Wayward. He is now embarking on a solo career. He has
already released two nationally received singles from the yet to be released
solo album Lucky 13.
1652 MR. WADE: Hi. Sure, this happens to the singer. It's
just like in the movies.
1653 I live in Toronto. My name is Thomas Wade, and I have
been playing concerts across Canada since 1996, as either a supporting act or a
headliner. The response to Canadian country in Toronto has been on a par with
everywhere else in Canada, even Calgary, which has made it clear to me that
country is not just for cowboys, lucky for me.
1654 When we had a country station here in Toronto I would
play here approximately three or four times a year to very well received shows.
Since losing the Toronto-based signal that has dropped off incredibly. I played
a cross-country tour this last December, called the Huron Carol Tour, with four
other Canadian country artists. And across the country it sold out almost
everywhere and often within hours of going on sale.
1655 It was a great show. The one big disappointment was
the biggest city we played and that was Toronto because the people didn't know
we were here. Thank you.
1656 MS MAHOOD: I would just like to add to that, that
that is a really sad point. It was for the support of the food banks right
across Canada and the sad part is that it was only half filled in Toronto, which
is our city and which the two of us were on the tour this year. Last year it was
sold out within two weeks.
1657 I would just like to say that the support that
Toronto has given me was incredible. I released an independent record four years
ago which, being an independent artist, you don't get the support from a big,
major label, but I got the support from a huge radio station which was in
Toronto, which then created recognition for me and profile internationally that
I got signed to a major deal with David Foster and Warner Records.
1658 The sad part of it is that at that time we also had a
huge festival that happened at The Beaches. Eleven thousand people attended that
two years ago. It is sad to see that nobody attended it this year and it didn't
1659 I really think that we deserve a country radio
station right in Toronto. These people definitely believe in it and I believe in
1660 It's sad for me to think that in Toronto I am known
more for my sports expertise on a TSN show than I am for my music.
1661 Thank you very much.
1662 MR. WITTER: Good morning.
1663 I am just going to reiterate I think a little bit of
what Thomas and Bev said. As a Canadian country recording artist who has in the
past and continues to make his living solely here in Canada, we rely on our
music to be available in the major markets.
1664 For my point, mostly to develop an audience there,
when country was available in Toronto I had developed a market to a point where
I was able to do shows in places like the Ford Centre. That was the last show I
did a few years ago. Over the course of two or three years we developed a good
following here, and now that radio is gone I haven't done a show in Toronto in a
year and a half.
1665 So I am just going to support, of course, Durham's
application. I think to continue to make a living doing what I do we need
country music in Toronto.
1666 Thank you.
1667 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Jim, Beverley and Thomas. I
think the case is clear and stated.
1668 Just to wind up here, the impact of the country
format in Toronto will not cripple or damage any existing service. This is
tuning that was there. It's diffused out into either other stations, other
formats or just disappeared from the airwaves and people take alternative ways
of finding country music.
1669 In our business plan our projected revenues I think
are conservative and can be easily accommodated by the expected growth of the
Toronto market. As mentioned, the market is very big and very strong and the
station can make its way into this market without hurting anyone
1670 We also believe -- and, clearly, country adds
diversity to the Toronto radio market without impairing or taking away anything
from any other broadcaster.
1671 In closing, we have proved there is a significant
demand for country music in Toronto. Our application offers improvement to the
competitive situation in Canada's largest market. It's an independent company
entering this market, which is able to support an additional radio
1672 We will add diversity to the market in terms of
programming and new voices, and we will provide significant benefit to the
growth and development of Canadian country music talent.
1673 Our last word is that our proposal merits awarding
one of the FM frequencies being considered for licensing at this hearing. It's a
licence which will maximize the use of the commercial radio spectrum in
1674 Thank you very much, and we promised a little more
fun and video and here it is. Thank you.
--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
1675 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, ladies and
1676 Commissioner Williams, please.
1677 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning.
1678 MR. KIRK: Good morning.
1679 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I am going to lead the
questioning for the Durham Radio application, which is for a technical amendment
to extend the coverage of their Ajax country station through the addition of a
transmitter in Toronto.
1680 Durham has set out two technical options in their
application. The first option is for the better of the two frequencies
available, 93.5. This option will provide CJKX will full primary coverage to
central and western Toronto, as well as secondary coverage to Mississagua and
1681 Option two is for the other remaining FM frequency to
serve Toronto, 106.3. This option will improve CJKX's coverage in central
1682 As we work our way through the questions, your
application notes that CISS-FM was operating in the country format and achieved
decent ratings, in fact, above most of the AM and some of the FM services
serving Toronto. In your view, why haven't any of the other Toronto stations
moved to a country format to fill the void?
1683 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have difficulty hearing
1684 MR. KIRK: Yes. It is a bit low. I think we heard the
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
1685 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you need to have us start over
from the top?
1686 MR. KIRK: No.
1687 If I can just repeat the question to make sure we
understand it. I think it was that there was an existing originating station in
Toronto, CISS-FM. For strategic reasons on an ownership change it changed format
and I think the question was why no one has picked it up in the market. Have I
got that correct?
1688 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.
1689 MR. KIRK: That's a good question. They may fear us
coming into the market I hope, but I don't know why another station didn't pick
up the format. You can see from our presentation that we sincerely believe in
it. It's a very good format in our prime market of Durham region. Where we have
some signal in Toronto I think we have demonstrated to you that there is tuning
and demand for the format. There was clearly excitement and momentum in the
format with an originating station.
1690 I think one of the points to be made here is that
there are not enough FM frequencies that have been assigned in the market.
Obviously, commercial broadcasters take it from the top. They will gravitate to
the frequencies, or to the formats with the frequencies that they own to try and
get the biggest formats first in the market. At this point, among the commercial
stations they have picked those formats and we're next.
1691 I think just to amplify a little on this, in the 1990
award of the frequency that licensed CISS-FM the Commission looked at the
competitive landscape in Toronto and awarded a licence to an originating country
station. That station did well. The format did not disappear out of this market
because it failed. The format was quite successful. It had very good ratings and
it had a lot of excitement in the market. The station did well.
1692 I understand from people who work there that the
station had achieved very good revenue and billings and certainly the Commission
is aware of that through the filing that CISS-FM would have made with the
Commission. So it was billing well. It was producing good income, but in a very
competitive market on a strategic change you will take the format which for a
commercial broadcaster will generate the most out of the market and we just
don't have enough FMs.
1693 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr.
1694 When CISS-FM was operating in the country format was
there a lot of duplication in the playlist with your existing Ajax station, or
did the Toronto station skew more to new country, for example?
1695 MR. KIRK: I will start and then I will turn it over
to Steve who works out every playlist every day and does it extremely
1696 CISS-FM and CJKX-FM are both new country stations.
There was a substantial duplication of the music universe, but with some
important differences and I will turn it over to Steve to answer that question
1697 MR. KASSAY: Yes. Thank you, Doug.
1698 They are both new country -- well, at the time
were both new country formats. I do recall when we appeared before the
Commission in 1997 for the available 99.1 that we presented evidence showing
that 63 per cent of the current lists, which is the bulk of the music which is
played most frequently throughout the day and throughout the week were not
duplicated, and that is because we did clearly see a difference between the
music programming of KX-96 and CISS-FM, in that we played music which would, we
think, be generally more accepted as being country music, as opposed to country
music mixed with songs one might consider to be more pop oriented, adult
contemporary styled, artists which were not traditionally known to know where
Nashville was on the map. It was a different mix.
1699 We play what is more generally accepted as being
1700 MR. KIRK: I think in sum though, if you put the
stations on position one and position two on your car dash and worked between
them, they would both be to your ear new country radio stations, distinct from
other formats on the band.
1701 Just as a point here, when we started up CISS was
already in operation. When we started CJKX in 1994, CISS had a very significant
market share in the Durham region as a point, and over the period while the
stations both had signals available in Durham region, we won the battle out
there because of the way the station was operated and being in the community, a
little closer to the community out there, a little tighter focus. But we moved
up and acceded CISS-FM at the time. I guess we moved up to sort of a three to
one ratio versus CISS with two country signals in the market.
1702 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would the proposed move to
Toronto result in some fine tuning to the music played on CJKX-FM?
1703 MR. KASSAY: If I hear you correctly, would the
addition of Toronto imply a change in the music played? No, it would not. In
terms of the style of music or the list of artists, is this what you are
1704 My answer is no. We are proud of our product. It's
successful. Where we have coverage, to expand on Doug's point, when he mentioned
us winning our market, so to speak, against CISS because they surely were in
ours, it's successful. It continues to be successful. It continues to grow and
from comments we receive that's what's missing. No, we would not.
1705 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about spoken word
programming? Would there be changes there?
1706 MR. KIRK: The spoken word programming, this would be
the news and surveillance material, the make-up and focus of the radio station,
as we mentioned in our presentation, would evolve.
1707 When CJKX was started -- let me reel back a
little bit, in 1994 we had acquired an AM station, a previous AM station which
was based in Ajax. It was focused very tightly and it had been in a downward
slope for a long time. And when we strategized and put CJKX on the air, we said,
"Well, we don't want this. This is bigger than Ajax." Our licence proposal was
to serve Durham. Durham was a group of communities. There are five cities along
the lake, starting at Pickering, through Ajax, Oshawa, Whitby, Clarington, along
the lakeshore of Lake Ontario and there are three communities, more rural
communities in the north part of Durham region.
1708 Our strategy was to conceptualize CJKX as a Durham
region radio station and we did that. We serve all those communities. We went
out and found the news and focused on the events that were pertinent to them,
our community events program which Adrian was a part of at one point. We just
went out and we took the station to those communities, not excluding one
community for another, but viewing them all as a region.
1709 Our step into Toronto would have a similar process.
Obviously, if we moved to Toronto, you would have to focus a bit more on
Toronto. There's no doubt about it that the station would have to speak to the
community and to the people. You can't add to the same thing. You would have to
then, with the available time, it's a bit of a zero sum game, so if you add a
little focus to Toronto you are going to have to diminish the Durham focus a
1710 But we have done that. We have managed that. We
brought a station from a broken down AM to a very successful regional FM and we
are very confident with the plans we have in place to be able to take that,
bring a Toronto focus to the station and still maintain the original home of the
radio station. In other words, the radio station will evolve into a bigger
1711 It's something that the Toronto stations do all the
time. They talk about the Greater Toronto Area and they can service that from a
downtown location. We can service the Greater Toronto focus from a location in
Ajax which is in the GTA.
1712 I don't know if you want to add a little more to
1713 MR. KASSAY: It's a different perspective I think.
That's all I wish to add. It would be service from a different perspective, a
different point of view. I think we can offer that.
1714 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your application you
provided some share estimations based on Option One and Option Two. Do you feel
the audience for country music will return in the same numbers as were evident
with the former country station? If so, why do your estimates not reach this
level throughout the seven-year term?
1715 MR. KIRK: Just give me a second to find the
1716 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take whatever time you
1717 MR. KIRK: Yes. Under Option One we project a starting
two share, ramping up quickly in the first two to three years to a three share
and then gaining a little growth under the full market.
1718 We believe that the audience can be reinvigorated in
the country music format. I think there is evidence of that from the data we
presented. Where it's there and the signal is good, you see the demand for
country and the tuning is there.
1719 Obviously, when you start out, and I will leave Steve
to address that point, we have seen growth in our market when we started out and
there has been a good, positive trend line right through the history of CJKX and
we are using the same thing.
1720 We don't think going out and shooting off a lot of
fireworks at the beginning to launch a radio station is it. You have got to
build that audience and win one listener at a time. That's what we have done in
Durham. It has been a very one-to-one approach, being intimate with the radio
station and they stay with the radio station. You continue to build that
audience. We have shown we can do that.
1721 In Toronto we are trying to give you a base case
where we think you could stimulate a two share very quickly because it's been
there. It has been neglected by the broadcasting business of Canada -- in
other words, there has been no originating country format, so it will take some
time to bring an awareness back up and bring them on to the station. But over
time, we have shown that we can build over time and that's the philosophy behind
those share numbers in our application.
1722 Obviously, the 93.5 signal with more coverage and
more people let's us build a bigger share in the market than the 106.3, which
really just fills in some of the impaired signal areas in the eastern part of
Toronto and gives us access to the central core, but it wouldn't give us much in
the way of an ability to reach the Etobicoke, Mississagua, Brampton area. It
just doesn't have enough power to get that far.
1723 Both I think would be very positive for country
music. Obviously, we have got to start at a lower base with the smaller signal
and ramp it up.
1724 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
1725 Apart from relying on the historical BBM figures for
tuning to CISS-FM, have you done any recent research on the appeal of country
music in Toronto?
1726 MR. KIRK: We haven't done any outside surveys, no.
The other research we did undertake was the Mobiltrak tuning research that we
1727 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tuning to out-of-market FM
radio stations represents about 12 per cent of all Toronto tuning. How much of
this tuning is to country stations?
1728 MR. KIRK: If you look back in the presentation books,
it's the country format share in Toronto, the page with the arrow on it. If you
look at the country format share page, 1998, the total market share in Toronto
was 5.5 per cent. Of that, CISS-FM was about 4.6 per cent. The balance
being -- we would have a tiny part of that share, a small fraction, 1 per
cent and then there are some other out-of-market stations, all of which
collectively added up to .9 per cent.
1729 With the loss of the originating station, similarly
in the fall 1999, obviously some people are tuning us where they can get it.
There is some other fringe tuning in the market, but the total share collected
among all those little slices that exist for stations in there add up to 1.3 per
cent. That's our tuning, the station in Newmarket, the station in Welland and
Hamilton. They are all -- nobody gets more than a half a per cent share in
total, but accumulates to the 1.3.
1730 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Assuming your proposal is
approved for 93.5, can you estimate how much of this listenership, if any, would
1731 MR. KIRK: I didn't get the end of that
1732 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. Assuming your
proposal for 93.5 is approved, could you estimate or give us your best guess on
how much of this listenership, if any, would be repatriated?
1733 MR. KIRK: Our year one assumptions are for a 2 per
cent share. So we think right out of the gate about half of that lost
listenership would be taken up. Again, that's a starting point and by the end of
year three with a three share that would compare to a little over 4 per cent
that CISS had in the market. We would be repatriating roughly two-thirds to
three-quarters or reinvigorating that listenership.
1734 Over the long run, the longer run of our projection
here, we expect we could get virtually all of it back.
1735 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
1736 Since you have acquired the assets of the Ajax
station you have applied to the Commission and received approval on two
occasions for a power increase. You are now proposing to rebroadcast programming
originating in Ajax to the Toronto area and from your application you say it is
programming which will reflect the community it serves and as an integral part
of doing business in Toronto contribute to the economic well being of employees,
artists and clients.
1737 You also indicate that the news, weather, sports and
traffic information will address problems and issues directly relevant to the
listener, which leads into a few questions.
1738 Could you please explain how you intend to serve a
Toronto audience, while continuing to meet the specific needs of Ajax and Durham
1739 MR. KIRK: I think in your statement and in that
question there are several parts to it. Could I go through the technical part of
it first? You mentioned power increases and so on.
1740 We have a map here, if I can maybe just explain that
to you. This map, again, it's in Map 1 in the book. This is just a blowup of
that map. In here is the main signal.
1741 The power increases that we had applied for, we were
experiencing -- let me just back up. In that grey area in your map in the
book, highlighted here, the grey area shows potential interference and it is
there, to the CJKX main signal.
1742 Over the period that we have had the station in
operation and last year we did increase the power, but it was really to firm up
coverage in the core market in Durham region. We were experiencing some very
severe interference, even into Pickering and Ajax from time to time. The power
increase actually provided as much signal or more signal gain to the east than
the west. So, it firmed up this core coverage and we added a repeater last year,
which is based in Sunderland, which again clears up this large area. This is all
in Durham region and has improved our coverage in Durham region.
1743 So, as you can see, most of Toronto, in fact,
experiences impaired signals. There is a little part of Scarborough here where
we have clear, unimpaired coverage.
1744 Our estimate is that would be about 275,000 to
300,000 people in that part of Scarborough.
1745 The primary coverage of the 93.5 signal at 3.5
million of unimpaired coverage. So the duplication there is significantly less
than 10 per cent.
1746 So with all the talk of power increases have really
helped in the core market and the addition of a better transmitter has really
helped us out in the core Durham region, but we have not through those power
increases got access to the Toronto market in any significant way, other than a
very small area of overlap here, less than 10 per cent of what would be added
1747 Now, just while we are on this point and so it's
clear, in our options that we made to the Commission adding 106.3 is a
significantly smaller signal than 93.5. Adding that, our proposed site is around
the top of the Don Valley Parkway and 401 area. That will just allow us to cover
this area. It will give us central Toronto and clear up interference issues in
western Scarborough and the eastern part of Scarborough. Primarily, it is to get
the signal down the Don Valley and cover the downtown better than we are doing
1748 It improves service to about 700,000 or 800,000
people even with that tiny, little signal. It's a very significant add on to us
and it's very important to us.
1749 I hope that covers the ground on why we have done
what we have done on the technical side.
1750 I think Steve will talk to the point of how we are
going to evolve and manage what our primary responsibility thus far has been to
Durham and how it will evolve into the Toronto market.
1751 MR. KASSAY: Yes. If I understood your question
correctly, then it would also involve a response based on news and information.
Is that correct?
1752 As you can see from our current coverage area, and
further to Doug's explanation, indeed, Durham, just shy of a half a million
people itself, constitutes a very large part of what we would call the GTA.
Communities on the west akin to it perhaps might be Mississagua,
1753 We are very experienced now in serving and
successfully serving a variety of communities, if you will, five distinct towns
or cities, three major communities to the north. We manage the area over the
air. We manage the area on the ground in terms of coverage and we have become
very successful in talking to each of the communities, dealing with their news,
and folding out westbound to bring in Toronto and central Toronto we feel we
would be applying the same principles to what we do where we are into the east,
1754 Our current coverage area, as Doug pointed out, does
cover a portion of Scarborough. In terms of service, day-to-day service, we
consider that to be part of the big mix in terms of the information we provide.
So our news and information today, news of importance to residents of
Scarborough, we will not neglect. We will include in our information packages as
well as we will include items of importance for Clarington, Oshawa or
1755 MR. KIRK: Just to add a bit more, I think in your
question you asked if we would be trying to cover Toronto from Ajax. Ajax is
part of the Toronto CMA and it is getting further and further into the Toronto
CMA as growth in this area explodes to the east.
1756 To build on Steve's point a little bit, other Toronto
radio stations, the bulk of them are in the downtown core or very close to the
downtown core of Toronto, and we look at that and think inevitably in the
business you do reflect a little bit of where you live. That's the environment
where the studio is and you just bring that to the station with you.
1757 In our case, Ajax is part of the Greater Toronto Area
and part of the CMA, and we bring a lot of that to where we live. That's why the
station has been successful in the area it has been broadcasting over its
1758 What we want to do is to add Toronto to that, and I
have said it's a bit of some of the parts and you will have to give up a little
bit. We won't neglect that, but the interesting aspect for the Commission to
consider is we are not trying to be an Ajax station broadcasting into Toronto.
We are going to evolve this to a Toronto station, a Toronto area station with an
emphasis on the east part of the city. We can reflect on a more balanced way
activities that are happening in the east part to the entire market.
1759 We are not going to say, "Well, we are moving this."
We are not going to move. We are going to stay on that ground and pull in
Toronto important information and reflect that, but in the process be able to
reflect, if you will, levelling the field a little bit, bringing things that are
important and we see going on in the east part of the city to the whole
1760 So, in fact, it provides a diversity of location
within the market here. This is a very big market and virtually all of the
stations talk about Queen and Yonge and Bay and Bloor and they are all focused
on the downtown core. We will reflect that certainly and that's the point of
putting the studio location and redeploying personnel into the core of Toronto.
We have to be on the street and particularly as it involves Adrian.
1761 The artists come into the city. It's a whole lot
easier for them to access our station and be reflected with the presence on the
street in Toronto right downtown and have them come in for an interview and be
able to promote their events and so on. It's a whole lot easier than asking them
to hike out to the main studio in Ajax and back.
1762 But, as I said, this is not a situation where we are
going to turn around and move the station into Toronto. I think it's a good
balance here. We are going to reflect Toronto. We have to. It's a huge
opportunity for us. Why wouldn't we do that? We are not just going to
rebroadcast, if you will. We have to change the whole make-up of the station and
strategy on how it exists on air and we've planned how to do that.
1763 The key point is that it will reflect the whole and
it will have an emphasis, a continuing emphasis not to exclude Toronto, but to
add that eastern focus to the GTA.
1764 I hope that fills the gap.
1765 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to explore that topic a
little more. The current focus of CJKX, would you agree the station's mandate is
to provide service to the Ajax market and then a regional service to
1766 MR. KIRK: That has been the primary focus of the
radio station. In providing that service, though, we do extend beyond. There are
a lot of people in Durham that commute, for example, right out to -- well,
we have listeners that commute to Mississagua from Durham. They phone us on the
road and e-mail us and everything else, and we do cover traffic and surveillance
information and this is important to listeners moving into the GTA.
1767 As I said, that wouldn't be the prime focus, but it
is certainly important to our listeners. They exist in the bigger world. It
doesn't stop at the Durham/Toronto boundary and we don't stop the focus of the
radio station there. They are driving through that boundary because they work in
Scarborough or in Etobicoke or Mississagua. We carry that with them.
1768 Certainly if Adrian and Steve want to comment
further, or Jerry, on that point, I would welcome that.
1769 MR. KASSAY: Most of the comments we get back are
based on, well, we take you as far as we can. We lose you and we lose our music.
We lose country period. We lose touch with our favourite station. Everyone has a
favourite station it seems and all of a sudden it's gone.
1770 Included in our application you would note a page of
e-mail comments reflecting the same thing. People try to listen on-line as best
they can. We usually get maxed out pretty quick and that's the biggest problem,
they can't take us with them throughout their day because, as Doug says, their
day doesn't end and the world doesn't end at the Rouge. It carries on westbound
and that's a big problem we face in terms of local service, service to
individuals throughout their day and music, not being able to provide the format
past a certain, if you will, geographical spot.
1771 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Assuming you are successful in
getting Option One, 93.5, would you shift the orientation more towards serving
the needs of metropolitan Toronto to the detriment of Ajax and the Durham
1772 MR. KIRK: I don't -- I guess I take issue with
detriment as a descriptor of the service. As I mentioned, we are committed and
we planned how to evolve the service and we will have to highlight a bigger
area. We will have to highlight Toronto. That's a tremendous add on. It would be
very, very beneficial for the country music business and for this radio station
to have that additional coverage.
1773 We could make a huge difference for the music
industry and for the people at the station and the prospects for it. We will be
able to do a lot more within the broadcasting business. So, obviously, we have
to include it, but I wouldn't call it a detriment to Durham. We will still focus
1774 But again, you can't -- I want to distinguish
between the role of evolving the station and broadcasting to this larger
coverage area which is important to us. It's crucial to developing the station
to its fullest extent. You can't do everything and clearly in some of that
refocusing there would be a little bit of Durham lost in the process.
1775 As I said, we are going to keep the main production
centre, the main studio of the radio station in Durham and have this additional
input from a studio in Toronto. It's not the first time that it has happened in
the market. There have been other situations that the Commission is familiar
with. CFNX was run out of Coburg. It has sort of turned around now and is
located in Toronto. We don't plan to do that. We are close enough. We are
actually within the market, so it's not necessary, but we think we can do the
job with how we have planned this out and leaving the main studio
1776 I don't think it will be detrimental, in a sense. We
will still have a significant enough focus on Durham that we will be able to
serve them. What we do will have to evolve the station with this additional
coverage because the station has to represent where its main audience is and
that is in both area if we get the larger coverage.
1777 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's take a look into the
future a bit. Do you have any plans to further extend the reach of CJKX-FM's
coverage area by establishing additional rebroadcasting transmitters at other
1778 MR. KIRK: I think we have given you two good ones
now. At this point we haven't. We are just in the process of maximizing and
developing the one in Sunderland which we just put on the air very recently. So,
it will require some development and focus, particularly in the summer when you
can go out and attend a lot of events and expose the station.
1779 We have done some advertising in the area to start
the ball rolling. It really means going out and touching people where they live,
so that project is under way.
1780 We think this project is the most significant for us
and we would have our hands full doing that. We can manage it, but I think
that's it. So until this proceeding's decision is known we are going to be doing
what we are doing. We have some work to do in our own area, but Toronto would be
a very major move.
1781 Down the road -- I am always looking. I am never
satisfied. Mary will attest to that. I stay up late looking at maps and trying
to figure out where things could work better. We won't be totally still on this
and we look forward to doing this. We think we could do a terrific job in
extending the coverage of CJKX to Toronto and that will keep us busy for the
1782 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
1783 In your November 3rd deficiency response you indicate
that the proposed station would schedule regular news packages, containing news
of interest and importance to the residents of the Greater Toronto Area. You
also say that CJKX-FM has established a tradition of providing community
information in a manner that is specific to the individual areas, reflecting the
patchwork of neighbourhoods that make up the GTA, and you commit to establishing
a satellite studio, as you spoke about earlier, in downtown Toronto facilitate
artist interviews and news programming and to give you an on-the-street presence
1784 Could you describe the operation that you intend to
put into place to meet these obligations and to provide a service pertinent to
and that meets the unique needs of listeners in the various GTA
1785 MR. KIRK: I will start and I am sure Adrian and Steve
can add on and whoever else.
1786 I think we have tried to explain to you how the
station has been conceived and how it has been operating in its first roughly
five years. That pattern has worked pretty well for us in developing
1787 We were facing formidable competition. We still do
day to day in the market from all the Toronto spill. The Toronto stations cover
Durham. Durham stations don't cover Toronto.
1788 So we have worked at that and that's how we have
developed this way of reaching people in the community.
1789 I would ask maybe Steve and Adrian to talk to how
that is focused and how the actual station goes out to meet people and how we
are covering community events.
1790 MR. KASSAY: Yes, indeed. I just want to point out
when Doug says coverage we are talking technical and this is absolutely the
reverse for programming. Toronto stations cover Toronto. We are there to provide
perspectives. After all, as Doug mentioned, we are part of the GTA.
1791 In terms of the news and I found the place that you
are referring, news packages containing news of interest and importance. As I
said earlier, it is what we do now in terms of having to include Durham and
parts of Toronto, i.e. the area of Scarborough which we do cover. So, we are
very experienced in covering the different communities. Right now we do report
issues and news of both areas, if you would like to distinguish them as
different. However, they are all under our coverage umbrella, so we don't. We
don't distinguish them as being different.
1792 In terms of providing community information, we are
very active and proud of our success with our road team and our community events
service. It has evolved to a point where it now runs year round. It started as a
summertime, as most stations do, just a summer cruiser plan, but that didn't
last more than a term before we felt the need to go 12 months around the
calendar, and we are very active and usually receive more than we can attend. So
we try to make more requests than we can physically attend and try to make up
the balance with our on-air scheduling of community notes.
1793 The web site proves to be a very powerful tool in
being able to at least make available to people things that we perhaps cannot
include in daily segments due to sheer volume. So we were one of the first in
the area on the net and we continue to learn more about it, seeing as we are all
radio folk, not internet folk, but we are slowly becoming internet folk because
that seems to be -- the whole world is -- mass communications is
heading in a variety of different avenues.
1794 So that's how we reflect news. That's how we attend
at community events. Adrian was part of it. Much of what we do as well is the
promotion of the music. We are very passionate about the music. We believe in
it. Everyone at the station is a country music pro. Everyone on air has worked
that format before, many of us for some years in Toronto, dating back to AM
radio, much too long ago in Toronto, Fun Country, and in other
1795 So we have a good cross-section of representatives
from across mostly the province on air and working in the programming end of
things. In terms of our decision process, if an applicant is not passionate or
knowledgeable, they too may not be regarded too highly as a proper addition for
our staff. You can't fool an audience, that's for sure.
1796 So we have a team of believers and people who know
what they do and we're passionate about it. Promoting music is part of what we
do. We were so thrilled to be part of Jim's new baby, I am not talking the
newborn twins, you haven't slept in weeks have you, but his second album, which
was very important to him and very important to us. We need good Canadian music.
We need artists that will continue to flourish, aspire, grow and meet their
goals, fulfil their dreams. We can't do that unless there's a good process in
place in Canada for people to have access to a recording and hence we provide
our talent search. It can't happen unless there are radio stations to play the
product on the air or the demand just isn't there and hence the story on the
Huron Carol, where the room was half empty. What an awful sight looking from the
1797 Without the awareness we can't generate any
excitement. We can't make people knowledgeable about the product and the people
making it. Careers are on the line. It's in demand. It's clearly in demand in
the Toronto market and in terms of the music we're passionate about it. So it
too is very important in reaching out to the community and servicing a need.
News and information, yes, community news and involvement and visits, yes, and
the music angle.
1798 Country music fans are loyal. I don't know of any
other artists that could willingly wander through a group of people just to
shake hands and say hi. That's the country music community.
1799 MS VOGEL: I just wanted to add to what Steve said,
the relocation of my position, the artist liaison, downtown just doesn't include
the studio and me working with artists that come in. In addition to me dealing
directly with the artists, there are also the five major record companies which
are Toronto based, along with the independent companies.
1800 I am also on a weekly basis in touch with all the
major, be it country music or other music trades, Billboard, RPM, The Record,
based in Toronto. It's the right thing to do. If this is all I deal with all day
and they are all Toronto based, anything I can do to make it a little bit easier
to promote a little bit better our move into Toronto, we're ready to do
1801 MR. KIRK: I think part of your question as well dealt
with the news and how we would evolve the news presence into the market. We
committed to adding a reporter downtown who would be responsible for covering
happenings in the centre part of Toronto and westward, which could provide
stories of interest back to the main studio and to put them on air. That's one
way to expand the focus.
1802 Again, it would be prioritized with other stories as
to how the news department has to conduct itself, what is most important for
your audience, your listeners and the coverage that you are envisioning. So,
clearly there would be that additional input directly.
1803 Surveillance information, traffic, we have covered
that already. That's available. You could cover Greater Toronto traffic from
anywhere in Toronto. There are ways to do it, sources of information. You don't
have to be located in Toronto, but as indicated on our coverage we do cover the
401. We cover the 401 and major traffic events to help our listeners and they
may not be able to get the signal. But if they are going towards the 427 on the
west side or the airport, we can provide them with information, although they
may have switched to another station if they are in transit as long as they can
1804 Well, that doesn't have to be expanded dramatically.
It has to be expanded to the extent that we have to maybe add a little more
focus to the west side of Toronto, but we are covering substantially the Toronto
traffic patterns right now, again with emphasis on the east, but it can very
easily be accommodated and that can be done with the existing
1805 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So that my
understanding, I was asking about the type of operation you would put in. You
are going to have a reporter and an artist liaison in a building downtown in
Toronto. Is that what you are going to do?
1806 MR. KIRK: Are you asking about the specific
1807 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the question dealt with
describing the type of operation that you planned on putting into place, the
staff, the facilities. Maybe you can spend a bit of time just saying what
exactly are you going to put into downtown Toronto, how many people are going to
be there, what are they going to be doing and how will that contribute I guess
is the information I am trying to help you give us here.
1808 MR. KIRK: I understand the question. We have made an
arrangement with an existing broadcasting entity in Toronto who has excess
capacity at this point in their studio and office situation. We have made a deal
to actually take one of the excess studios and office space within their
1809 We will be able to put a sign and a brand name up so
people can find it. We are going to use that facility as our Toronto base of
1810 It certainly wouldn't be the same scale as the Ajax
operation, but it will be there and substantial. Adrian will work out of that
office. The reporter will work out of that office. There will be two people
assigned specifically on the programming side to do that.
1811 I will just turn it over to Steve Macaulay, and you
haven't heard much of Steve yet, but I hope he can speak a bit more as the
proceedings go on. Steve will obviously be using this facility, as well as to
restructure the sales effort and put some sales presence into the Toronto core.
I will turn it over to Steve now.
1812 MR. MACAULAY: We would be looking at hiring probably
an additional two sales staff, plus making the office available for the existing
sales staff covering Durham and into Scarborough now. Although we have some good
tuning in the east part of Toronto currently, our sales don't reflect that as a
proportion of the total revenue. Most of it is concentrated in Durham, so it
would be quite advantageous to have an office in Toronto as we could beef up our
sales and also work a lot more with the agencies and some of the national
1813 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Good. I think that gives
us a good indication of what type of operation you plan on putting in place in
1814 MR. KIRK: I'm sorry. You can tell I'm not a radio
guy, on air anyway.
1815 Just to fill that out in terms of complement, we
currently have 19 full-time people in Ajax at the main station and the initial
Toronto office would be four or five full-time people, just to give you a sense
of that expansion. It's a significant commitment to fill out that service to add
on and incorporate the Toronto market into CJKX.
1816 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Great. Thank you.
1817 The next area we are going to move into and talk a
bit about is the best use of the two frequencies, 93.5 and 106.3. As you know,
your application is competitive and technically it is mutually exclusive with
seven others for the use of 93.5 and 106.3.
1818 In such a situation, the Commission seeks
competitors' views to assist it in deciding which applicant has proposed the
best use for the requested frequency. What, in your view, are the compelling
reasons to grant you the requested frequency and in what ways does your proposal
constitute the best use of the proposed frequency? So, why you guys instead of
somebody else, basically?
1819 MR. KIRK: I have a feeling you are going to ask
everybody this question, so I had better make my case.
1820 What we have said to you this morning I think makes
the case for country. It's a very big format, the second-biggest format in the
country. You have heard from the artists on how important it is day-to-day that
they have an originating station.
1821 Canadian country music has gone worldwide. It is not
something that we ask to take second seat to anyone. We have a worldwide class
country system here and I don't have to go through the list, but there is a
significant list. You saw some of the people on the videos here, Paul Brandt,
Terri Clarke, Shania Twain, who have become world class country artists based
out of Canada, and that industry is very important and you have to have a
country originating station. We have made that case. It's a format demand that's
the key to this application. I think that is overwhelming in its reason for
wanting the frequency.
1822 We demonstrated there are over 360,000 listeners,
that there was a quantifiable audience here that had been basically
disenfranchised by format moves in the market, and we want to bring that back
and provide the stage for country music to flourish in this market, Canada's
largest market and it is getting bigger every day and more important to artists
to be able to promote it in the market.
1823 I think that's it. It adds diversity. There aren't
any country stations in Toronto. We cover a little corner that others cover, but
you see what has happened when you lose that originating station, the tuning
evaporates. You have to be there. People have to have that strong
1824 A lot of people in Toronto live in apartment
buildings and multi-unit dwellings. You can't get that signal from far away
downtown. It just doesn't penetrate in. There is too much noise, so you have got
to have that to get into where people live. I mean that's the key
1825 The point is the format is not here. There is no one
doing it. We are not trying to add the sixth station serving the ethnic market
or the fourth station serving CHR dance, urban, whatever in that format. This is
a unique situation. It's one format. It doesn't take away from anyone. We are
not going to be fighting others in the market. This is it and I think the
benefits are quite clear. That's why we asked for 93.5. 93.5 gives us the tools
to do the job better than other frequencies.
1826 One thing too, it's a music-based format. Country
isn't music driven, like virtually all of the FMs in Toronto. They are
music-based formats and you need FM and strong FM signals to carry that
1827 We are targeting a very tight market here. The City
of Toronto, Mississagua, Brampton fill out the service of country music in the
GTA. This will do the job.
1828 I was aware that there are lots of competitors. There
is a long list here. I think there are more people applying for these
frequencies than there were in 1980 whatever or 1990 or 1997 and we have been
observing this for a while, so this is a very crowded room and a lot of
applications. So, I don't envy your task in trying to sort all these
1829 But our approach here has been to be very clear, it's
a very unique format, a very big format, a very big opportunity for the
Commission to add something to this market. It was a format that was granted in
the market before and for business reasons and strategic reasons that was moved
in the last year to -- the country format disappeared for specific reasons
1830 However, I don't think that has diminished the impact
or the appeal of the format in the market and that's why we want the larger
1831 However, keeping that in mind, we can also see a very
major benefit from using 106.3, but clearly our clear, clear indication to you
is that 93.5 is the frequency to do the job, to do the best job and the biggest
job for what we are proposing. 106.3 would be an assistance and it would help in
the market and we don't want to diminish the impact of that. 106.3 is better
than nothing, but 93.5 is our clear preference.
1832 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That raises a couple of
questions in other technical options. Have you looked at options that may be
available on the AM band, specifically we would like you to comment on the
technical feasibility of expansion on the AM dial to the recently expanded
portion of the band to a new frequency located say between 1605 and 1700 kHz,
and would the use of another FM frequency between 535 to 1600 achieve the same
objective as you propose in this application?
1833 MR. KIRK: How long have we got?
1834 Let's talk about the technical side of it. We have a
very good consulting engineer. You may know his name. His name is Wayne Stacey
in Ottawa, who has done our work since day one and has been instrumental in
achieving a number of improvements against very tough technical challenges to
get us where we are.
1835 I had Wayne look at the Toronto market. He did the
technical briefs, as you know. His name is on the diagrams here. I asked him a
question prior to the hearing, I said, "Wayne, here we are, we are going in.
This is the very last, last, last Toronto frequency." I said, "I know you can
pull rabbits out of the hat, but is there anything out there that you could see
on the FM band in Toronto?"
1836 He said, "Well, I've been around this a while. I have
looked very hard and there is beyond 93.5 and 106.3 or 106.5," the way it has
been proposed, they are mutually exclusive and I think 106.5 has a lot of issues
attached to that because it can experience severe co-channel and that's why we
didn't look at it. There is a station in Buffalo, New York which I think will
cause any use of 106.5 to be just horrendously impaired because it doesn't look
like the way it comes out on the map. There is a thing called Lake Ontario there
and the signals come across and will cause 106.5 interference. So we didn't look
at that. We looked at 106.4 and 93.5.
1837 So those are it in terms of FM, unless there is some
change in Industry Canada's spacing requirements, but even that, I asked Wayne
and I said, "Well, even if they did that and allowed more third
adjacenties -- in other words, closer packing of stations together," and he
said, "I don't think there's much left that would be useful."
1838 So regarding FM, I think and maybe I am being a
little bit brash, but I think these are the last FMs in Toronto. You heard it
1839 Well, what about the AM band? I agree there are some
slots. I am aware that you could use, other than 740 which has been vacated, you
could use 1610 is available in this market or 1670. These were new allocations
that were left in the expansion of the AM band from 1600 to 1700.
1840 People have been reluctant to apply for those. I will
give you our rationale why and maybe it's an opportunity, but I think what we
are dealing with is a music-driven format and the Commission is well aware and
we showed it on our description of the AM radio map in Toronto where there is
basically just one music format left here and that's Oldies 1050 CHUM. It is the
only music-driven station left on the AM side of the dial.
1841 There have been numerous AM formats migrate to 680
News, to the Fan which is a sports and talk based format, to Top 640. These were
previously music-based stations that have migrated to talk format because of the
characteristics of AM.
1842 There is a perception out there and as the population
has had more time with FM, this has developed, at least the way we see the
business, music is on FM. Talk and other stuff, sports, is on AM, information
1843 Part of that has been a technical issue with radio
manufacturers and the quality of AM sets weren't very good. In-car AM is
terrible. AM can still do a job on it, but what has happened is the people have
walked. They have walked to FM for music.
1844 CJKX is a country music station, that's why it has to
be on FM. That was our rationale, to go for the biggest FM frequency available.
That will do the best job.
1845 740 is a big regional station. We rejected 740 in
this particular proceeding because 740 has a huge coverage area as applicants
have already told you and there will be more I guess later in the week. It's a
big regional service.
1846 How do we do country with a big regional service and
continue with our plan. You would lose something in that. And, as well, if you
put 740 on it would reach market, like Hamilton and it would reach the Barrie
market and the Peterborough market where there are existing country stations and
we'd start to mow their lawn. You would start to split the audience and we
didn't think that was a very good thing to do, to take a big regional service
and disrupt other markets where they are trying to do a good job for country
music and their market and then to face the new competitor didn't seem to make a
lot of sense to us.
1847 I guess in the ultimate, to be totally honest, frank,
if there were nothing else left you could develop 1610 or 1670 in Toronto as an
AM. It would be a lot more costly. It wouldn't work as well for the country
music format. There hasn't been a great adoption of tuning up to the extended AM
band between 1600 and 1700 in Canada. I am trying to think if there has actually
been a licence awarded in that part of the band. If there is I don't recall it.
There haven't been many. I think there is a little part-time licence that was
licensed a few years ago and has kind of gone off into the vapour. I haven't
heard anything about it since. That was a part-time station on 1610 in this
1848 So I mean there are some opportunities there on the
extended AM band for Toronto. That's the real opportunity to increase some other
services in Toronto but we, quite frankly, didn't think it was appropriate for
the FM music based station that CJKX is. It probably had more applicability to
some of the other community based formats where you need larger coverage or a
focused downtown coverage where a lot of the programming would be public affairs
and spoken word type components to it could work well.
1849 So there are opportunities to expand the number of
licences in Toronto going forward, but they are I think on the AM
1850 I haven't done an extensive search on the AM band.
With moves of stations there may be some small drop ins that you could do on the
AM band, but they certainly -- other than 1610 and 1670 and 740. You may be
able to find a little spot where you could put an AM because there have been AM
stations in Canada vacate the band. They have converted and there may be some
spots where you could work something in, but I think there are three obvious
spots on the AM band for expansion in Toronto.
1851 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for your thoughts on
1852 The next area we are moving into deals with Canadian
Talent Development. You indicated that if you were to receive a licence for 93.5
you would allocate $100,000 annually for Canadian Talent Development and that if
you received a licence for 106.3 you would allocate $10,000 annually for
Canadian Talent Development.
1853 Your Option One and Option Two Canadian Talent
Development allocations vary substantially. Could you explain the differences
between the initiatives in the allocations included in the two
1854 I guess just to add a bit more to the question, so
you can bring it all out in the same discussion, you indicate that under Option
One you would spend $50,000 per year for Canada Day. This could be considered a
rather substantial sum. Could you detail how this money would be spent and how
much money would be paid to the musicians themselves?
1855 You also indicate under Option One that you would
spend $30,000 per year for a talent contest. Would you detail how this would be
spent and how much of this money would be paid to the musicians themselves? I
can review them quickly if you want, if it would help.
1856 MR. KIRK: No, that's fine. That question is almost as
long as my previous answers.
1857 The two options were not done just off the cuff, but
the potential with 93.5 is very substantial, as I have indicated to you, and
that's the reason why we want it, first.
1858 In doing that we have said, "Well, this gives us a
full Toronto exposure. We will have the revenues and we will have the base to
ramp up our commitments and that was the rationale for choosing the higher
amount. So, we could make a difference in Toronto in highlighting country
1859 The concert would be a big event, again this Canada
Day thing. It would have to be worked out. At the previous one we had a sense
that about that amount was spent on it. Obviously, a portion of that for the
artists, a significant portion. We haven't worked out a specific amount that
would go to the artists, but it would be a significant amount of the $50,000
shot for the Canada Day.
1860 You can also bring it together with other entities
that are willing to sponsor it, parts of it, and go side by side with you to
produce the event. So we thought the $50,000 as a single event would bring this
big event and I forget if it was Thomas who I think mentioned it previously. It
was a very, very big event that disappeared off the map here in Toronto. We want
to reinvigorate that whole promotion of country.
1861 So that was the big thing, 93.5 would give you the
coverage. We could cover the whole market and that was the reason for putting
the bigger commitment on 93.5.
1862 That's not all. We did commit to increase the amounts
to Factor and other scholarships. I will ask Steve to talk about the talent
contest because he has been intimately involved in our talent contest that we
run in Durham, but in total it's a pretty big commitment in our view and we said
in the application we would escalate this, increasing it by approximately 10 per
cent per year over the period. So we would continue to have the resources as the
station grew, but the big signal to continue our support and increase that
support for Canadian Talent Development in the market. I think that's the
rationale for that.
1863 Just before I turn it over to Steve, the 106.3 option
is a much smaller option. It's an enhancement or a fill-in to cover a much
smaller area. We think it will give us the ability to make additional sales and
we will do whatever we can and potentially if we can work out the right package
we will try and resuscitate the Canada Day with the kind of commitments that we
have got in the proposal at that level, but we wanted to commit to that so we
could at least, without having any hesitation, be able to commit and do what we
say on those commitments.
1864 These commitments, certainly with 93.5 in terms of
the Factor formula that is applied directly to Canadian Talent Development is
about quadruple the base level that the Toronto stations pay, so it's not an
insignificant commitment. I think we have focused on a couple of key initiatives
here that can highlight the whole country scene.
1865 I would like Steve to talk for a couple of minutes on
the talent development which he has had first hand experience with for several
1866 MR. KASSAY: Just before I do, just to make you fully
aware of the impact of the concerts and how it affects all of us, I would like
you to hear comments from Beverley first.
1867 MS MAHOOD: As an artist, if you don't get the support
from the radio station you don't achieve fans, which means you don't achieve
record sales and you don't stimulate revenue for yourself as an artist, an
independent artist. We stimulate sometimes the money for our records through
Factor which is a government grant we get.
1868 It is nice to play in your hometown and show that
when you get that Factor grant that you can actually show them what your talent
is and what you can provide. It's just sad that you can't get a gig in your
hometown, you can't come back to your hometown and play, you have to go
1869 MR. KASSAY: And before people get to this stage,
where it is competitive and trying and oft times difficult due to the business
climate, which is what we heard her talk about in terms of their development, is
the stage prior to and that's the real development of Canadian talent, the push
that some artists need. I should say the push people need or want just to simply
call themselves artists and get the ball rolling. That's what our talent contest
is all about.
1870 It has been a success for years now. It is ever
growing it seems and the difference between Option One and Option Two and first
I should explain what it's all about, it is indeed sponsored solely by the radio
station, a partner that provides the venue, a club, and a third partner, a
recording studio run by professionals for professionals. It is where we often
bump into the likes of Thomas and these people are used as the musicians. That's
part of their work as well is playing on other people's material.
1871 The Cradle to Rave studios is our partner. They are
based in Oshawa. It's first class, run by a former musician, a manager, promoter
and we promote the contest and invite people to enter, it's as simple as that
and the list gets longer every year. We extend it a little bit longer every
1872 The difference between Option One and Option Two, the
prizes we offer, this year for instance, was a two-song master. That is, full
recording of a song. If you are familiar with the recording process, you get to
pick a song. Not only do you get to pick any song. You are provided with a
library of songs to choose from, which is one of the advantages of having a
studio. They have their fingers and arms all the way down to songwriters at that
level in and out of the country. They get to choose the song, have it recorded
by professional musicians, have it mastered properly, have it recorded properly,
get a very professional recording done.
1873 So much so, we promise that the winner and their
two-song master receives airplay on KX-96, highlighted as the winning
contestant, not just mixed in with everyone else, so people know it can be
achieved, people know what we offer and what they can win.
1874 This year it was a two-song master. These are radio
ready. Ready to send out across the country, get the proper licensing and off
they go. It's a terrific kick start to get a wannabe artist into having a CD in
their hands and CDs distributed across the country. Getting it on the air is
another process, but that's certainly a full step ahead.
1875 Second prize is a one-song demo. Third prize does not
1876 With Option One and the coverage we would have and
the response we anticipate, based on the overwhelming response we get currently,
we would have to offer bigger and more substantial prizes, more than two. The
costs would be greater. It could be a three or four song package. That cost
would be greater. We would award four or five contestants, I would imagine, to
make it a longer list with those prizes and that does cost money.
1877 We have taken people like Amanda Lee from a
restaurant in Port Perry to the airwaves of KX-96. She thinks it's terrific. She
now has a manager, an agent, recordings and is off and on her way at a very
young age. There are success stories and we would like to be part of
1878 With Option One the coverage would be greater, the
contests will be bigger, the costs will be greater. That's background on the
contest and how it works.
1879 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for that
1880 I have a couple more specific questions now. In your
financial projections under Option One for the 93.5 frequency you indicate a
first-year allocation for Canadian Talent Development of $110,000, increasing to
$164,780 in year five. Could you clarify the difference with the $100,000 CTD
allocation under the figure you indicate in your application and then with your
deficiency response under Option One?
1881 MR. KIRK: The difference there in the expenditure
versus the commitment is what we actually expect to spend. We have CTD programs,
that Cradle to Rave program on now. That's an existing commitment on the radio
station, so the combined projection includes the new commitment plus the old
1882 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
1883 Could you confirm that you would be willing to accept
the proposed annual Canadian Talent Development allocation for a seven year
1884 MR. KIRK: Yes, we would
1885 Are you specifying the $100,000 level in Option One,
just to clarify that and the $10,000 commitment in Option Two?
1886 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
1887 MR. KIRK: We would accept that as a
1888 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your projections arguably, I
guess, could be conceived as being somewhat conservative. This new retransmitter
could conceivably exceed projected advertising revenues. Should this scenario
occur it could have an impact on existing Toronto stations. I guess specifically
in year five of the proposed broadcasting period, the proposed advertising
revenues of your new transmitter are about 22 per cent under Option One and 12
under Option Two of the average advertising revenues earned in 1998 by the 11
existing Toronto FM stations.
1889 At first look these revenues appear to be modest, as
I said, and perhaps you could exceed them. Can you elaborate on the assumptions
used in your projections? Two, would you qualify these projections as
conservative and, three, as the only country formatted station operating in
Toronto and given the greater commercial potential of both of your existing
station and of a new retransmitter in Canada's largest market could you exceed
these projections and comment maybe on the impact on other stations?
1890 I guess we want to hear about your assumptions. Do
you think they are conservative? What's the impact on other stations and could
you exceed your budget?
1891 MR. KIRK: There were quite a few questions there, so
I will work through them and just jog my memory if I miss some.
1892 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the last four, if there
is any consolation and after you have answered those questions I will be giving
a brief opportunity, three to five minutes, to sum up your application as best
you can. So I will let you get on with the financial questions.
1893 MR. KIRK: Thank you.
1894 First of all, we like to try and build the business
over a long period of time. We have shown that commitment with CJKX and I can
assure you that it wasn't easy for the first couple of years in taking the
station from an unwound AM and building it essentially from scratch. I think if
you talked to some of the people at the time I think we were down in the --
it wasn't at zero. It was negative because of the momentum that had unwound in
the market because radio hadn't worked for clients.
1895 We had to build that up. So we generally approach new
situations and knowing what we could do. As you can see, the share numbers start
at 2 per cent. There is a lag in converting audience to revenue. You have to
build it up. Steve Macaulay will talk to it and some of the ways that we can see
of building revenue.
1896 We have tried to approach this in, as I say, a
conservative manner because we don't want to go over and extend too much and be
in trouble, so we build this in a very conservative manner. We have done that in
five years with CJKX. It has become a successful radio station. We want to take
it through the next step, so we are not going to over commit, nor be too
enthusiastic out of the gate.
1897 We know the realities. We have worked in this market.
It's tough in Toronto. There are a lot of radio operators out there. We have got
to carve out a new position. That position was abandoned a year ago. We have got
to go and restart it and it takes time to do that. We have used what I would say
is a realistic, but conservative ramp up.
1898 Starting with a 2 per cent share, we think we can
start with an incremental revenue here of around $1.5 million and support the
kind of expenditures, the incremental expenditures that we gave to the
Commission in the projections.
1899 In that are substantial additional programming
initiatives to start the Toronto studio, additional Canadian Talent Development
expenditures and particularly promotion. With 93.5 we have budgeted in $600,000
in that first year to get to rebuild, to restart the awareness of an originating
country station in the market. It takes time. It doesn't happen in one minute or
one hour. It takes time to build these things up.
1900 I mean that's it and we can manage that and these
expectations. With a two share to start, depending on when you get the station
on the air, you may be several months between getting a rating book and that
won't translate. Steve will tell you what it's like selling without numbers to
agencies. It's almost an impossible task. So you have got to build the revenue
1901 I think we have done that in a prudent way, a very
conservative way, so the station if it goes on the air will not miss its
1902 You mentioned is there an upside in the target? I
think there potentially could be an upside, but we don't want to bet the station
on the upside target and find ourselves if that falls short we are in trouble
and can't fulfil our commitment. So it has been built on that plane with a two
or three share. You might exceed $2 million or $3 million in the market over
time. I think that is possible, but we have built it in such a way that I think
these are very achievable. We have tailored the commitment to be there,
significant and doable through the whole piece.
1903 106.3, just to comment on it, it has a much smaller
signal. It has I think a significantly smaller chance of getting a big share in
Toronto and the sales process without rateable Toronto numbers on the national
side is quite difficult.
1904 I would ask Steve to make some comments on what it
would be like in evolving this from our current operation, which is focused on
primarily retail accounts, into the new signal area.
1905 MR. MACAULAY: Part of our problem has been the spill
from the Toronto stations into the Durham region and it has put us in a position
different from let's say other markets like Barrie, Guelph and Peterborough,
where they do get their fair share of national dollars. Up until now it has been
a point where if they are buying Toronto radio, certainly four or five stations
on the buy, they don't have a need to buy an originating station in our market
to top up the buy to reach their objectives.
1906 So, as a result, a lot of the retailers' money in the
Durham region is pouring into the Toronto radio stations. So that's having an
effect on our revenue.
1907 With a signal into Toronto, where currently about a
third of our audience is in the Toronto CMA because of an overlap with
Pickering, Ajax and Uxbridge, we are not getting out fair share of revenue out
of that portion of our listenership coverage area.
1908 With a lot more strength in the Toronto BBMs, if you
will, it will give us a lot more clout and the agencies will certainly be able
to justify to their clients of putting us on a buy where they hadn't put us
1909 In conversations with several media buyers in
Toronto, they would welcome the opportunity to purchase a station with a country
format, especially since you consider the duplication is very low amongst the
other current stations that are quite strong in the 25 to 54 age group. So they
have shown that they would be very supportive and would certainly pay the going
1910 MR. KIRK: Have I missed part four?
1911 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would mainly deal with in
the event you exceeded your projections what would be the impact on the other
stations, if you would care to comment on that?
1912 MR. KIRK: I am sorry, I apologize for
1913 I think at the beginning of the presentation we spoke
to the size of the market and how big it is, the kind of growth that has gone
on. Toronto added about 15 million -- I don't have the data right at hand,
but the Commission knows that. It was Commission data. But the market has been
growing. It added about $15 million.
1914 Even if we, say, doubled our revenue take from
market, that would represent about a quarter to a third of the growth that is
evidenced in the market recently and with the way this Greater Toronto Area is
continuing to grow, I think this station could enter the market and generate
those additional dollars.
1915 In fact, as Steve was mentioning, there are some
accounts that might come on the air that haven't been using radio because they
are targeted at this particular audience. They haven't had a vehicle. They have
moved to the sidelines.
1916 In our view, given the size of the market, we are not
going to cause anyone any impairment.
1917 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much for your
presentation on country music. I live in Edmonton now and from the information
that is provided country seems to be quite successful there.
1918 I guess what we will do now in our process, I am
going to turn the meeting back to Chairperson Wylie and she will continue
1919 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you are given an opportunity
to conclude, counsel has a few questions. But, Mr. Macaulay, your comments
reminded me of a hearing we had in December where you were, Mr. Kirk, and where
a map was put before us and Mr. Evanov's colleague from CKMW suggested that what
was wrong with this was it should be turned around, so that Orangeville and
Brampton stations beamed into Toronto, rather than Toronto stations into
Orangeville and Brampton.
1920 Considering how flattering it is to suggest that, us
four Commissioners would have the power to do that, I am surprised you didn't
suggest that we should move Toronto a bit east towards Ajax.
1921 MR. KIRK: It's already doing that right now, Madam
Chair, and has been growing.
1922 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then you would beam into Toronto
without technical convolutions.
1923 I have one question before I deliver you to counsel.
I find it interesting that when applicants are asked what impact their revenue
is likely, the revenue they will take out of the market if it is a new
application or an extension, the impact they may have on other broadcasters and
the answer is always the market in Toronto is huge and they give the amount.
Then they calculate their revenues or even, as you just did, they double it in
case they were too conservative and they say that's a minute proportion of the
market, how can I possibly have an impact on anyone?
1924 But is that really how it works? Depending on your
format or your demographic or how you skew your programming, it's not the entire
market that may be affected. It could be pinpointed to stations, could it not? I
find the answer unsatisfactory, unless you can explain to me that it makes sense
because I can't just take their revenues and divide them by reference to the
entire market or anyone else's revenue and say it's a minimal amount. You are
not going to compete with the entire market, but possibly with some particular
stations and then the pie against which I calculate the effect is smaller and,
therefore, may give a greater impact number.
1925 MR. KIRK: Well, we certainly want our position to
make sense to you, so we will try and explain it.
1926 THE CHAIRPERSON: Pardon me, I didn't hear
1927 MR. KIRK: I said we would certainly want our position
to make sense to you, so let's try and explain that.
1928 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does it make sense to calculate in a
city the size of Toronto where there are so many stations and, of course, the
ethnic broadcasters are right on because they can't say the entire market if
they are transmitting in Italian or Portuguese or Chinese, but to a certain
extent or a lesser one the impact you may have will vary depending and by you I
mean the impact one can have will vary depending on one's pitch.
1929 MR. KIRK: I think I understand your point. As it
relates to specific ethnic broadcasters the pool would be probably more
1930 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was an illustration of my logic.
It's not related to your case.
1931 MR. KIRK: And looking at those they would have to
deal within that pool.
1932 The point we are making to you is that country music
and the demographics that are concerned are mainstream. It participates in the
larger pool. I think you have to make distinctions between applicants that come
in and are targeted at a very narrow or niche part of the market and the larger
part of the market which is the national advertising pool, the larger retail
accounts that are in that pool and that has been growing dramatically in
1933 I want Steve to speak to it. He has worked certainly
at CJKX now for five years and has worked in the national business in Toronto
and I think can explain those differences and why. I know what you are saying,
and if you can disguise this little niche coming out of this big pool, everyone
will come to you with the same argument and say it is not going to matter to
anyone and we should at least be able to --
1934 THE CHAIRPERSON: The only time they make the
distinction is when it is going to affect them.
1935 MR. MACAULAY: First of all, I guess something that
tends to happen a lot in Toronto radio is when the top four or five FM stations
are sold out an agency buyer can no longer achieve their objectives, so they
decide to scrap radio all together and put the money into another medium. So the
radio industry, the radio market in Toronto loses.
1936 By having another viable alternative, such as a
country format, it opens up another door for them to possibly achieve their
objectives and the money not fizzle into another medium.
1937 Second of all, when CISS was on the air as a country
format they prided themselves in getting an awful lot of direct retail business
that other stations didn't bother chasing because about 95 per cent of the other
stations were dealing primarily with revenue from the advertising agencies. So
they had quite a large sum of dollars coming in that were at the direct level,
something that we could continue to do as well and we are certainly a lot more
affordable than most of the Toronto stations. Your single outlet mom and pop
operations cannot afford Toronto stations to begin with, so we really wouldn't
be taking revenue away from them in that respect.
1938 There is also a lot of accounts that relate directly
to the format, such as a Wild Rose Saloon that is currently located out by the
airport as a country bar, and because of our inefficient signal in their area
they have chosen to buy a country format outside the market totally and to the
west of Toronto. So there are a lot of other opportunities for us to gain
increases in revenue without cutting into the traditional flow of dollars from
1939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.
1941 MR. RHEAUME: Just very briefly, and thank you, Madam
1942 Very briefly, one clarification and maybe you have
answered this already. Canadian Talent Development, how much of this which you
have in your application is new money compared to what you are doing
1943 MR. KIRK: The commitment of new money is the $100,000
a year in Option A, which will escalate over the period and the $10,000 in
Option B would be new, new commitment.
1944 MR. RHEAUME: So if we take Option A, how much new
money over five years?
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
1945 MR. RHEAUME: ...how much is spent currently and how
much is add on?
1946 MR. KIRK: So if we committed to an additional
$100,000 commitment, increased by 10 per cent per year, over that period and, as
I said, we would take a seven-year commitment on the --
--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
1947 MR. KIRK: In Option 2, $10,000 of additional
commitment escalated at the same rate and we would take that through seven years
as well. I hope that will make it clear.
1948 MR. RHEAUME: Thank you.
1949 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
1950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.
1951 There is your five minutes now, Mr. Kirk, and I hope
that after this hearing you and Mr. Evanov will get together and discuss with
Mr. Lastman, the Mayor of Toronto, which way we move the city.
1952 MR. KIRK: I guess it's moving everywhere, but at the
1953 Anyway, we would like to just spend -- I know we
have spent two and a bit hours here, but we would just like to highlight a few
1954 I would sort of recap our points here. I think we
have been chewed at the seams that there is a significant demand for country
music in Toronto. It has been disenfranchised over the last year and we propose
to reinvigorate and fill that void in the market.
1955 I think by licensing our application you are adding a
new competitive player into the Toronto market. We are not associated with
anyone else. We don't have money commitments from other Toronto broadcasters as
part of our application. What you see is what you get here. We are an
independent company. This is a very significant opportunity for us in a good
1956 So we will improve the competitive situation. It will
bring a player into the market which is -- the market is able to support
additional radio service and I think we can become a strong player in that
1957 As we have talked about, we are an independent
operator and will add diversity in terms of not only another news voice serving
Toronto, but as we explained to you, adding diversity with a new -- with a
different perspective, highlighting some of the emphasis to the east into the
centre and the larger market. Mr. Evanov will likely do that from the west. I
will leave that up to him.
1958 I guess most importantly, it will provide significant
benefits here to the growth and promotion and development of Canadian country
music talent. I would like to just turn it back for a minute or so to Jerry
Archer and our artist for a comment.
1959 MR. ARCHER: Thank you, Doug. As I mentioned earlier,
I can speak to the experience that I have had in the country music business for
ten years now. A good deal of that time was spent in the Toronto market, so I
saw that how having a signal in the Toronto market can create some excitement in
the city, as the artists have spoken to, and someone such as Jim Witter sitting
to my left here.
1960 Jim was with us ten years ago as part of a country
format. Jim is still here. He's still making a living at it. He needs a signal
in Toronto to do that, as Beverley has stated as well. Maybe we could pass it to
Beverley to say a few words.
1961 MS MAHOOD: I just have to say that a year ago I had a
favourite radio station right in downtown Toronto. As a listener and a fan and
an artist, that was the station I listened to. How devastating it was to listen
to that station all day and come out of a basketball game, a charity basketball
game, and go "Where is it? It's not here any more". It was
1962 I just want to say that country music is here. It is
here in Toronto. We are here as three artists and live in Toronto and want to
hear our music again.
1963 MR. WADE: Yes. As I said before, I live in Toronto
and I do business in Toronto and I meet people all the time who recognize me. In
fact, my little boy's Kindergarten teacher was shocked to find out that I was
"The Thomas Wade". She wanted to know where she could listen to my music. That's
the refrain. People are starting to pick up little snips of country music all
around the area, but nobody can listen to country music and I think we need
1964 Thank you.
1965 MR. WITTER: I think one of the main ways we earn
income in this country is by live performance. I personally developed a pretty
darn good audience I thought in the Toronto area as the years grew on. I just
noticed that as soon as country music was gone from the area that that audience
1966 I have a new record out. It's very important for me
for my new records as well as for my old records to be played so that I can
continue to develop that audience.
1967 Thank you.
1968 MR. KASSAY: I hope we proved to you today, and I
trust we have communicated to you that we are not only passionate about radio
but passionate about this format. There is a large unserved audience in Toronto
and our industry in Toronto, in Canada's biggest city, is at risk we feel and we
would like to change that. We need this licence to keep it alive.
1969 MR. KIRK: I think our proposal -- I know you
will hear a lot this week, the 15 or 16 people, everybody has got the right
answer. I think ours though, when you look at the size of the audience, it
certainly is proven history in the market and the type of impact it can have on
artists and development of Canadian talent merits your consideration.
1970 We would be absolutely delighted and thankful for the
award of this licence and will do the job.
1971 Thank you.
1972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, ladies and
gentlemen. We will now take a 15 minute break, so we will be back at 20 to 12 to
at least begin hearing the next application.
1973 Alors nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.
--- Recess at 1124 / Suspension à 1124
--- Upon resuming at 1145 / Reprise à 1145
1974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
1975 MR. CUSSONS: This is an application by CKMW Radio
Limited for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English language FM radio
programming undertaking at Toronto. The news station would operate on frequency
93.5 MHz (channel 228A) with an effective radiated power of 253
1976 The applicant is proposing a station to be called
Rainbow Radio. It is designed to serve the needs of the gay community in the
1977 The Commission notes that this application is
technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing
for the use of the 93.5 MHz frequency.
1978 The applicant also holds licences for CIAO Brampton
and CIDC-FM Orangeville, Ontario.
1979 I will now invite Mr. Bill Evanov to introduce his
1980 Mr. Evanov.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
1981 MR. EVANOV: Thank you. Madam Chairperson, Members of
the Commission, before we begin our presentation I would like to introduce the
members of our Rainbow Radio panel.
1982 My name is Bill Evanov, President, CKMW Radio
Limited. To my left is Carmela Larignano, General Manager of the Rainbow Radio
project and Vice-President, Station Manager of CIAO and CIDC-FM. Her management
and programming expertise have been a guiding force in the development of
1983 To her left is Bob Linney, President of Q2
Communications, the consulting firm that has been involved in the development of
this project and coordinated the market research for Rainbow Radio. He is no
stranger to innovative broadcasting. Most recently he was involved in
establishing All News Radio in Montreal. His company was also involved in the
design and creation of the Aboriginal People Television Network, APTN, Headline
Sports and the bilingual operations of The Weather Network.
1984 To his left is sociologist and professor of
criminology at the University of Toronto, Marianna Valverde. Professor Valverde
is a key adviser for this project, a published author, a recognized academic
leader in the country, an expert witness in landmark sexual orientation.
Marianna has been instrumental in furthering our understanding of the issues
facing the gay population and in directing her efforts to meet the needs of the
1985 Seated behind me at our table is a Director of our
company and Comptroller, Michael Kilbride.
1986 Next to Michael Kilbride, to his left, is Ky Lein
from our Sales Department and designated Sales Manager of Rainbow Radio. Ms Lein
provided expertise on the state of the radio market in Toronto and is here to
answer questions you might have on the revenue potential of Rainbow
1987 To her left is Keith Maidment, a full time Toronto
fighter who is our community liaison officer, has devoted six months getting
Radio Rainbow to this point.
1988 To his left is Ruby Hamilton, a member of the Rainbow
Advisory Committee and the President of a group very much involved in Toronto's
gay community, a group called PPFLAG or the Parents, Families, Friends of
Lesbians, Gays, Bisexual and Transgenders, representing 75,000
1989 In addition to the development team, we have present
in the audience several members of the Rainbow Radio Advisory Committee, and I
would like Carmela to take a moment to introduce each of them.
1990 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you. I would ask that each
member of the advisory committee stand as I call his or her name.
1991 In addition to Mrs. Hamilton, seated on our panel we
have with us today Bonza Minima, Adrienne Sovoro, George Smitherman, Andrew
Chang, Steve Solomon. Unfortunately, due to previous commitments, other members
who could not be with us today are Daniel Paquette, Andrew Fedesov, Senior
Pastor Reverent Brent Hawke, David Snoddy and Mark Tewkesbury, who is an Olympic
gold medalist, and Billy Newton Davis as well who is a three time Juno Award
1992 We will begin our presentation now.
1993 Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, these
are the team members who have developed the concept and prepared the application
for Rainbow Radio.
1994 Before we proceed with the formal presentation, just
one more thing. Throughout the next 20 minutes there will be several references
to the gay community. This description encompasses the entire community and
includes groups also defined as homosexuals, gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgender. For the interest of brevity, we will use the word "gay" to
encompass all that I have said.
1995 Our application is for a radio station with a format
the Commission usually refers to as full service. It has been designed to
provide a new, innovative use of radio. We believe Rainbow Radio will be a
service that will complement all other Toronto media providing a valuable link
to a specific cultural community while simultaneously providing an electronic
bridge between the gay community and the general population.
1996 Rainbow Radio will be the first of its kind in North
America. Toronto's gay community is currently served only by periodic talk shows
on radio and television, a sum total of 4.5 hours per week. In approving our
application for use of 93.5, the Commission would be introducing true diversity
into Toronto radio. It would be approval of an exciting new use of the medium
and it will represent a unique opportunity to open a two way avenue for
information, understanding and respect between the Toronto population and the
1997 I will ask Professor Valverde to explain the context
of the gay community and the significance of broadcasting the unique gay
1998 MS VALVERDE: Homosexual activity has taken place
throughout history and it takes place around the globe. However, there is a
relatively new social process that is specific to some times and places with
Toronto being one of those, the formation of gay and lesbian
1999 Since the 1970s, the gay community has developed in
the Toronto area. The most visual manifestation of this is the annual Gay Pride
Celebration in late June that draws somewhere near three quarters of a million
people to the area of this city known as the Gay Village.
2000 Toronto has become a destination both for short term
visits and for migration from small towns. Even though it is easier to be openly
gay in Toronto, nevertheless many people find it difficult to be open, something
which among other things means that any surveys or other instruments for
measuring the size of the community are bound to underestimate.
2001 The gay community, like other cultural communities,
did not develop without effort and, in some cases, real heroism. Activists who
fought legal battles for equal rights, supported by some enlightened
heterosexuals, are not the only characters in this story, although they may be
the best known.
2002 There have been many less high profile individuals
and organizations who have set up philanthropic groups, self help organizations,
newspapers, sports clubs, churches and so forth.
2003 By the end of the 20th century, Toronto has come to
be recognized internationally as having a lively gay community that is not only
large, but unusually diverse, just like the city in general. It's diverse in
terms of culture, ethnicity and so forth.
2004 Sociologists who study communities have outlined
three dimensions along which communities develop; cultural activities, political
groups and philanthropic and self help organizations. On all three of these
criteria, Toronto's gay community fits the textbook definition.
2005 This culture or community has not always been welcome
with open arms, however. Homophobia persists as seen in some of the letters sent
to the CRTC opposing this application. This means it is not easy for issues of
concern to the community to be aired in the regular media.
2006 I have been a guest on radio shows and TV shows on
issues of sexual orientation and have been amazed to see the way in which openly
hateful language is tolerated. This, in my view, justifies the present
2007 MR. LINNEY: I would like to emphasize another key
point in our presentation. This is not an application for a gay radio station.
Rather, it's a radio service that is gay friendly. The service is designed not
just to serve the needs and interests of the gay community, but to serve as a
bridge between various cultures and communities in Toronto and to be a positive
model within Canada's broadcast infrastructure.
2008 To develop the concept for a new signal, we
commissioned three independent research studies. The goals were threefold. We
wanted to determine the group or groups in the population who were underserved.
We wanted to determine what programming schedule would fill their needs and.
finally, test the consumer demand for our idea.
2009 The notion of Rainbow Radio was born when it was
identified the ideal coverage for 93.5 FM frequency was concentrated in the
downtown Toronto core market. Once we had the concept, our second step was to
develop a program schedule. We consulted programmers and the members of our
advisory committee and commissioned focus groups within the gay community to
discuss our proposal and elicit feedback.
2010 The input from the groups was incorporated into our
design and we went to market with a telephone survey to test our proposal with
both the gay community and the general population. When we had a sense of the
audience for Rainbow Radio, we tested our proposal within the advertising
community, both national and retail. Now I would like to share some of the
research findings with you.
2011 What we discovered in the focus groups is that
Toronto's gay community will not look at Rainbow Radio as a media ghetto. The
consensus was the gay community has unique issues, events and experiences that
are not addressed by existing broadcasters and this station can respond to them
all and respond on a local basis.
2012 The concept of a full service station offering a
variety of music formats throughout the week was also well received. One of the
key findings is that without exception, all of the participants were aware of
individual programs or single hours of music that are scattered across the
broadcast week on a variety of existing stations. In other words, they were
tuning specific programs.
2013 The reason for the select dialling is these programs
met in part either their need for information on what we call the community or
provided a music preference they couldn't find elsewhere.
2014 Appointment tuning is common among our target
audience, so the idea of scheduling blocks of time for either talks and music
was enthusiastically endorsed.
2015 MS LAURIGNANO: The focus groups also provided a
further insight on developing programming. SM has traditionally been a music
medium, but the research shows its talk components of Rainbow Radio will be a
vital part of serving our target audience. That is the very crux of this
proposal and to explain the significance of it to the community, I would like to
use their own words as stated in one of our focus groups. I quote:
"We want to be understood as we are, not as someone wants to portray us." (As
2016 Education, therefore, is a major programming goal for
Rainbow Radio. The opportunity to shed light on the misconceptions,
misunderstandings and apprehensions surrounding the gay community will be one of
the most important and tangible benefits provided by this service.
2017 MR. LINNEY: Our telephone survey included more than
900 respondents and more than half identified themselves as members of Toronto's
gay community. Among the conclusions, the satisfaction with existing Toronto
radio services is notably less among gay listeners. Seventy-five per cent said
Toronto radio does not meet the needs of the gay community.
2018 The majority of gay respondents, 80 per cent, also
said they would definitely or probably listen to Rainbow Radio. Only 26 per cent
of the general population said they would never listen, which we believe lends
support to the concept of a radio station bridging the gap between
2019 The research also identified distinct differences in
the music preferences of the gay community and the general population. It was
clear the music in the Rainbow Radio programming mix would have to be a wide
selection. The top musical preferences in the research were for contemporary
vocals, pop and Broadway or show tunes.
2020 MS LAURIGNANO: Research is just one of the resources
we have used in the development of Rainbow Radio. We want to make sure the
station not only serves the needs of the gay community, but also that it will
provide a bridge of understanding with the community at large.
2021 To help make sure we meet those two major objectives,
we have created an advisory committee of up to 20 community leaders and members,
some of whom you have met today. The committee has a specific mandate to do two
things: provide guidance for programmers and to help explain the role of Rainbow
Radio to the general Toronto community, including managing any complaints or
concerns expressed by any listeners or radio users.
2022 The advisory committee has a clearly defined role,
outlined by the constitution attached to this presentation. Rainbow Radio's
overall programming guidelines have also been attached as reference. Copies have
been made available in the media room for the general public and for all other
applicants to review.
2023 The Chair of the committee will be the General
Manager of Rainbow Radio. As required by the Broadcasting Act, it is only
Rainbow Radio as a licence holder that will always be responsible for the on air
programming, working with the inside comments and recommendations of the
2024 Ruby Hamilton is one of those founding members of the
Rainbow Radio advisory committee who can speak on its behalf about both the
potential for the service and the personal significance of this
2025 MS HAMILTON: Good morning. My name is Ruby Hamilton
and I am the mother of a gay son. I am also the President of PPFLAG Toronto,
which is the acronym for Parents, Families and Friends of lesbians, gays,
bisexuals and transgenders. I take the phone calls from distressed parents or
often from the children of all ages who are also in distress.
2026 Sometimes these calls can be a matter of life and
death since many of our children commit suicide. Some have bullied, taunted and,
yes, even beaten to death. One of our reasons for being on the advisory
committee is to help people like the mother who phoned recently. I advised her
to read the book "Now That You Know". Her reply to me was she doesn't read
English. This happens very often. How frustrating it is to all our members and
me when this is the answer. Radio is obviously the solution.
2027 In this changing wonderful city of mine, there is
such beautiful diversity and I welcome it, but how can we help? When our group
heard about Radio Rainbow, the uses for having such a station spilled out of my
mind. How different it would have been for me when my husband and I discovered
our 18 year old son was gay. Imagine having a radio station that you could turn
to that didn't disparage your child, that could help to educate you about what
it means to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, a station that would have
positive things to say to and about your child.
2028 We need Rainbow Radio on 93.5 FM. We could say to
these new parents "Turn on the radio to this station and it will help you to
understand and accept your child".
2029 We hope the Commission decides to take this action to
give Toronto the positive message that we are all equal and we have respect for
all. Three of the benefits I think of right now are, one, it would help parents
to understand and accept their child; two, it would help les-bi-gay people to
validate who they are and that it is okay. It would benefit mainstream society
by giving them a better understanding of who we are and there would be fewer
throw-away kids on our streets.
2030 I am pleased to be asked to serve on the advisory
committee and to promote the service that Rainbow Radio can provide. A
favourable response to our request for this licence would show our city and the
rest of our country that we are moving forward toward a society that is healthy
and respectful of human dignity.
2031 MR. MAIDMENT: One of the key ingredients to our
proposed service is the very nature of Toronto's gay community. As the third
largest community in North America, it is an economically and socially dynamic
culture within Toronto's society and it is the community that would be
strengthened by a unique service like Rainbow Radio.
2032 There is a clear demand for Rainbow Radio. On file
with the Commission is a petition with more than 5,000 names. More than 200
individuals, community groups, companies and organizations have written letters
2033 I am a professional fire fighter who has been active
in the gay community for 15 years. I wanted to be involved in Rainbow Radio
because I see the incredible potential benefit for Toronto's gay community.
Through my role as community liaison officer, I have made contact with dozens of
governmental agencies and departments, corporations, volunteers and associations
involved in the community, making sure that each had an opportunity to be
involved in this project.
2034 There is indeed grassroots support. This support is
illustrated by letters of support sent to the Commission from dozens of groups
that include Crime Stoppers, the True Spirited People of First Nations, the
Evencia Italo Canadian Organization, Long Yang Club, Black Coalition for AIDS
Prevention, the Chief of Police Duznett, federal, provincial and local
politicians, interested individuals from around the world.
2035 There is no doubt that because of its innovative
nature, Rainbow Radio has attracted international attention and
2036 Like every community, the gay community has an
infrastructure which includes a set of businesses and services designed to meet
the specific needs of their members. With only print media targeting this
distinct and affluent consumer group, there is a very real opportunity to
develop advertising revenues and bring new money into the broadcasting system
through Rainbow Radio.
2037 The Pink Pages alone, which is the gay community's
equivalent of the Yellow Pages, lists close to a thousand gay or gay positive
businesses and organizations.
2038 MS LAURIGNANO: We are proposing a number of industry
and community benefits as part of the creation of Rainbow Radio. The first major
benefit is the Rainbow Radio Foundation, an independent, non-profit agency
created to raise funds for benevolent causes. The second major benefit is
community involvement. We will provide a form of "Speaker's Corner" so that
individuals can record their thoughts or comments and these will be incorporated
into the various forms of public affairs programming.
2039 Rainbow Radio is also committed to getting involved
and supporting community events. The station will originate programming live
from a number of community events, including fashion care, a comedy festival and
Inside Out, which is the largest gay film festival in North America.
2040 In addition to the 27,000 TAB contribution, the
station will probably promote talent in several ways. One of the developments is
the Gay Creative Show, a showcase of fashion and art created by members of
Toronto's gay community. There will be a $20,000 investment each year and these
performances will be featured as station events throughout the Toronto
2041 Rainbow Radio will also contribute $30,00 a year to
Canadian Music Week held each spring here in Toronto. Our agreement with
organizers of Canadian Music Week is that the funds will be used to expand
activities and talent showcases to include gay talent.
2042 The total contributions to Canadian talent will be
over $500,00 during the seven year term of the licence. Rainbow Radio will be a
significant contributor to the realization of the objectives of the Broadcasting
Act and will fulfil the Commission's licensing criteria.
2043 MR. KILBRIDE: First, we provide diversity. As of
today, there are only four hours of programming per week on Campus Radio in
Toronto for the gay community. There is also a half hour weekly television
program on cable.
2044 Our proposal provides an unduplicated service to an
underserved community that crosses all traditional social lines; language,
gender, ethnicity and age. Secondly, we have a solid business plan that is
premised on sound research demonstrating both demand and commercial viability.
The broadcast experience we bring to this venture, combined with the
overwhelming grassroots support, will ensure the success of Rainbow
2045 Thirdly, the ability to bring in new money to the
broadcasting system will strengthen not only the operations of CKMW, but also
the entire Toronto radio community by minimizing the impact on existing radio
2046 MS LAURIGNANO: And, finally, perhaps the greatest
benefit of Rainbow Radio goes beyond the wording of the Broadcasting Act, but in
truth captures what we believe to be the spirit and intent.
2047 Rainbow Radio will contribute in a manner
demonstrative of both power and potential of the broadcast medium. It is perhaps
best said by Dr. Addy Rose, a Professor of Psychology at York University, who
wrote the following in his letter of support, and I quote:
"In a world where gay and lesbian youth and adults for that matter are
isolated, frightened and often alone, a regular radio broadcast will prove to be
invaluable, offering advice, pride, excitement and a sense of normalcy the
existence of the radio station may serve as a lifeline for many in the
2048 Dr. Rose continues:
"Recent studies indicate that record numbers of gays and lesbian youth are
living on the street, committing suicide and acting in self-harmful ways.
Repeatedly these studies find that it is a lack of information, positive role
models and a perception of pathology that contributes to these disturbing
trends. Obviously a broadcast whose content and existence are positive and
beneficial will do much to add to the quality of life for many." (As
2049 End quote for Dr. Addy Rose. It is this crucial,
unique and significant contribution that separates Rainbow Radio from all other
2050 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chairperson, Members of the
Commission, we thank you for your attention and we would be pleased to answer
your questions you may have. Carmela Laurignano, as General Manager of Rainbow
Radio and the driving force behind this application, I have asked her to be the
quarterback for our panel.
2051 Thank you.
2052 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov, ladies and
2053 I have four areas that I would like some
clarification on. One is the programming as well as well as you will deal with
open line programming. I see that you have attached guidelines that I don't
think we have seen before, so you may be asked to at least summarize what they
are since we didn't have them.
2054 I have a few questions about coverage and technical
questions and then I have some questions for you, Mr. Evanov, about the impact
projections that you feel may be the result of this hearing, depending on how
2055 I will deal with the first three subjects before
lunch and the fourth after lunch. I understand Professor Valverde has to leave
and that she would not be crucial to answering that last part of the
questioning. That's acceptable.
2056 You acknowledge, Mr. Evanov, at page 19 of your
presentation today that you will provide diversity. Of course, as you have seen
with other applicants, this is an important part of this hearing because it's
very competitive. There are few frequencies and many applicants. It's important
to know what it is that will be brought into the market to be able to judge what
is the best use of these last, last, last frequencies for Toronto.
2057 I must admit that reading your application and
hearing your presentation today, we need some clarification as to exactly what
it is that your service will offer. For example, at page 8 you emphasize, Mr.
Linney, and I quote:
"And as a key point in our presentation, this is not an application for a gay
radio station. Rather, it's a radio service that is gay
2058 Later on, on page 10, you talk about Rainbow Radio
being a vital part of serving our target audience, which I assume is the gay
community, writ large as you yourself have done at the beginning and then at
page 12 you say, Ms Laurignano, you want to make sure the station not only
serves the needs of the gay community but also that it provides a bridge of
understanding with the community at large.
2059 I understand the goals of serving, what you describe
or characterize as a cultural community, and of improving the relationship
perhaps with the gay community and the more traditional community.
2060 What I don't understand is why it won't be a gay
radio station which, I suspect, for competitors in the market, that may make
them wonder what kind of impact licensing this proposal will have on them. In
other words, we want to know more about what your programming will be like and
whether it will in fact be diverse.
2061 Your application states that the traditional
community will also be interested. The music part of it I suspect may not be
very different. There will be a large proportion of spoken word programming.
That may be different, but what is the reason behind the comment that it's not
going to be a gay radio station but a radio service that is gay friendly to
someone in the community who already has a service and is concerned about the
addition of your proposal into the community?
2062 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, Madam Chair. The intent for
the gay friendly radio station here is just as there is no licence to serve
heterosexual radio stations, we don't believe that you can license or there
should be a licence for a gay radio station.
2063 The radio station would be part of this community,
the larger community. Rainbow Radio will be one element of the total broadcast
family here that will reflect first and foremost the needs, interests and
aspirations of the gay community and, secondly, serve as a bridge between the
gay and the overall population.
2064 I will answer your first question which I believe is
what is unique and distinct about this particular proposal and then I would be
happy to talk about how the programming is going to be very distinct from other
services that are on right now.
2065 THE CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps we can speak about the
spoken word programming and open line programming later. That is easier to
understand as to the extent to which it would bring diversity. I would like you
to speak to me about your play list, for example, how different will that be,
how will the use of the day part differ as between spoken word programming,
drive time, whatever is the normal or more usual way of programming this type of
station on FM and the amount of music.
2066 You have provided us with some percentages of how
much spoken word programming. Will there be large portions of the day where it
won't be distinguishable from any other format?
2067 MS LAURIGNANO: I will tell you that we arrived at the
program schedule, the content, the programming, the various day parts through
extensive research. This was done both from a quantitative and a qualitative
perspective for research. We conducted some focus groups. We conducted a major
market research with Poyer, our research being the company, the organization
that conducted field work.
2068 We were able to ascertain what the needs and wants of
the community were before we finalized and designed the overall program schedule
and content. Mr. Linney will speak to the research in just a moment on what the
results were which were then incorporated into our programming.
2069 What I am saying is we didn't start out with a
preconceived idea that this is what we are going to do and then have the
research fit into it. The research in fact served to really identify and target
in on what the needs and wants of this community were. We have specific issues
and areas of issues that I will address after Mr.. Linney explains how the
research was conducted and what the key findings were which basically designed
the overall format.
2070 We determined from that that it had to be what we
said was a full service because this is a whole community. It's not a target
specific in terms of demographics, in terms of gender. There are various tastes
and preferences for things, but there were more things that were uniting this
community than were separating them when it came to serving their radio
2071 We felt that those could be addressed best through
the programming, but I will have Mr. Linney just address the research studies
and then we can give you specific details of how these were
2072 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Linney, before you get into
this, I remind you what my question was. I have looked at the research and the
application in detail. I understand what you may end up saying is or finding is
what's required to offer this diversity.
2073 I would like you to skew your responses to if the
results then, the addition of a radio station in the market, in its use of the
frequency and the use of the music and so on is not going to be that much
different from what's in the market already.
2074 As the regulator having to decide at the end of the
day what's the best use of the frequency, that's our interest. If your research
finds that but for open line programming, I'm exaggerating, there is no need for
anything different, then we have a different approach because then where's the
diversity and is it the best use of this frequency if someone has a very
different format to offer.
2075 I hope you understand that's the direction I would
like your clarification to take.
2076 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. Thank you. I understand your
question quite well I think. If not, I'm sure you will correct me.
2077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Linney, of course, is welcome to
speak to this.
2078 MS LAURIGNANO: What we determined was and what the
research showed is there are distinct music preferences that exist within this
community, the gay community, that are not currently offered by existing
broadcasters. Like, for example, your music, show tones, some dance
2079 The members of the community expressed that there is
a need to know what is happening within the particular community. The music, and
we will address that in just a little bit, has been incorporated into the
programming to serve the specific tastes of some musical preferences within the
2080 That is a distinguishing factor and assuming that it
is a full service radio station. In other words, we are not playing country
music 24 hours and we are not playing a specific format. We are trying to
satisfy the needs of the community. They will be able to sample some music of
their preference which is also not necessarily on current radio dials right
2081 For example, the show tunes, the popular standards
like thing, and also the mix itself. We do have a play list that we would be
happy to share with you so that you get a sense of what it's going to sound
2082 What's going to distinguish this community is the
talk element. It is the spoken word that will interweave and be interwoven with
the music., Keeping again in mind the objective of Rainbow Radio is to be
inclusive and to serve as a bridge between the gay community and the larger
community, we were able to determine that we can offer a balance of views and
deal with a certain number of subjects that are relevant. These subjects of
categories could possibly be described in three categories.
2083 Number one, there are issues and subjects that are
specific to the gay community. An example of this could be an issue surrounding
health, social activities, a policing issue, a cultural issue, a community
event, a specific counselling service or other resources that are available to
2084 The other issue, for example, is that we could
address any conflicts of the larger community. For example, there are parenting
issues. You know, being a straight parent of a gay son or daughter or vice versa
and dealing with things such as hate crimes, unemployment, discrimination and
inequity. Ms Hamilton referred to some of these issues where this station could
be a bridge.
2085 Then there is what one would possibly say is a
general interest or a topic which nevertheless has a gay perspective. I will
tell you what I mean by that.
2086 For example, you talk about spousal benefits. It's
something that somebody understands. But the definition, the interpretation, the
relevance, the concept I believe is quite different between what is normally
heard, let's say, in a talk show unless it's a specifically dedicated topic on
2087 There are other things like, you know, estate
planning or retirement, for example, which has a perspective in the same way.
You know, my parents who are equal Canadians are getting ready, not for a while
hopefully, but eventually to possibly go into retirement homes. I know that they
would prefer to go to Villa Columbo which is very much geared toward dealing
with people of their needs. It's not to say that one retirement home is better
than the other or that, you know, the type of facilities that are offered. They
would just feel more comfortable doing that.
2088 There is a perspective to that so the issue is
relevant from that perspective. That's determined as what's important. There are
also things within the community that are happening and that are relevant to the
community. For example, there's a Hockey Week which is not reported. That could
be part of, you know, the on air talk between the music programs. There's a gay
2089 I mentioned there's the Film Festival. There are
other bigger events. The bigger events also cross over. For example, the Pride
Parade. It's not a gay event.
2090 What we mean by gay friendly is that it is acceptable
and desirable for advertisers, for the community itself and for the larger
community to have some sort of cross-communication. The other thing too, and I
will ask Mr. Linney to address this also, is the issue of visibility or
invisibility of the gay community. There is no measurement. There is no way for
us to absolutely establish or say, you know, this person's gay, that person is
not gay. It's not our business.
2091 It's just in the same way that it's not our business
on the heterosexual side. This is not about sex. It's about identifying the
issues. We do the best job we could in determining what goes where. Bulletins
from the clinical research point of view as well as with members of the
community like Mr. Maidment who has worked in the community and is an active
member and Ms Hamilton who brings a family perspective -- and that is how
we arrived at those things.
2092 MR. LINNEY: Madam Wiley, first of all, two years from
now, after Rainbow Radio is on the air, I would be very surprised, number one,
if it was the number one radio station in Toronto. I would also be very
surprised if anyone said, and researched it, they listened to it only because of
music. And that gets back to the very issue of what we are proposing.
2093 This is not a format in the traditional sense of all
the other applicants. We are not proposing urban; we are not proposing country;
we are not proposing all dance. We are proposing a service designed to serve a
community that, up to now, in the electronic media, is virtually invisible, but
it's a community that has faces to it and it has people involved in daily lives,
such as Keith, a fireman, who was up until five o'clock this morning fighting a
general alarm fire, but who wanted to get involved in this project because when
he first approached us he said, "I live in a community that has no viable way of
communicating with each other, on a daily basis".
2094 The concept of gay-friendly and the bridge to other
communities is taking that viable community, in the center of Toronto, and
giving it the advantage of radio. Radio has numerous advantages that we have all
discovered in working through it through the years. Number one: it is personal.
When you are on an open-line show, it's anonymous. Number two: the announcer can
talk to you, your event, your community or your issue. And number three: it can
be heard wherever you are. You don't have to be in a gay club; you don't have to
be in a gay meeting; you don't have to be involved in any kind of
2095 The results of that is that you help, in essence, the
community evolve -- and that is when we turn to experts like Professor
Valverde, to try and determine exactly how a radio service, unlike any other,
literally, in North America, could be used to help a community that was
identified but, up to now, not served at all.
2096 So, I would ask Professor Valverde just to, again,
help clarify the concept of the service and what we mean when we say it's not a
gay radio station but that it's gay-friendly.
2097 MS VALVERDE: I think, over the past 10 years or so,
there's been a change away from this strict sort of "ghettoization" that
characterized the gay community, in its very early days. I mean in the very
early days, it was so completely stigmatized and marginal to provide any service
for gay people that only the seediest possible bars would actually have a space
for, you know, gay or lesbians.
2098 I think the tendency, now, is for services that are
either gay-owned or not gay-owned to provide gay-friendly environments where gay
people can go and they go with their heterosexual friends and it's not a big
2099 Now, some people think, well, you know, Toronto is so
enlightened and is so -- you know -- that you don't even need these
sorts of special gay-friendly environments or services or media. And I think
that is actually quite wrong.
2100 There's a great deal of homophobia out there. When
you read autobiographical accounts by gay people of sort of how they, you know,
discovered themselves, a lot of what they talk about is their relentless
heterosexism, as it's called, of the mass media; you know, the average gay
teenager turns on the T.V. and all they ever see is, you know, heterosexual
teenagers that are going through all these struggles. That is the kind of thing
that really contributes to what is called "internalized homophobia" and often
leads to depression and much higher rates of suicide.
2101 So, even though we might think that, "Oh, well, you
know, if you just take a walk through the gay village, look, you know, these
people have everything they want and, you know, who needs anything more",
nevertheless, homophobia is still very powerful. Gay-friendly spaces, you know,
have to be built; they don't just exist out there. And so, a lot of people, I
think, would love to have a space that was gay-friendly and, you know, even
though, obviously, you know, musical preferences are not as, you know, perhaps,
tied to sexual orientation as spoken word, you know, preferences, nevertheless,
I think there's always a different spin that is put on even the same kind of
music. I mean whether you like opera or rap music, you know, there's a sort of
gay spin and there are sort of gay artists, or lesbian artists, that are in
favour among the community, you know, even within that particular format. So I
think what one has to think about isn't just the, you know, the virtues of this
particular proposal but also, listening to this application, I think, should be
an opportunity to reflect on the relentless heterosexism of the mass media,
whether it's for-profit media or even, you know, publicly-owned media --
which is still, you know, totally heterosexist.
2102 MR. LINNEY: Madam Chairperson, in trying to determine
what kind of service this was going to be and whether or not it was viable, one
of the biggest questions we faced -- and we said it up front, in our
application -- is trying to determine just how big the market was because,
as I said, it has a direct impact on audience revenue, impact on existing
broadcasters and the valuable use of what is, in essence, one of the last decent
FM frequencies in Toronto.
2103 What we discovered in the research is that there is,
indeed, market size to make a viable business. But we are talking niche radio.
We are not -- we are talking the same thing as all news, we are talking the
same thing as headline sports on television or the weather network on
television. This is not designed for the masses. But it's not designed to turn
off the masses, either. And that's why we keep coming back to gay-friendly.
There is a role for radio in this particular market as an education bridge
between the two communities, and that's why we feel that it's a very unique
service that does provide diversity. Not diversity in the sense of, sorry,
country versus rock or the mouldy oldies versus the old standards. This is a
service that is on FM that is as much talk and has to do with the conversation,
the public service announcements, the events that are covered, as it does with
music for listening.
2104 THE CHAIRPERSON: I certainly understand the general
concept, the aim, the desire, but we are here to try to see whether this is
what's going to be accomplished by the proposal. It's not a question of
questioning whether it's not a desirable proposal; it's the extent to which it
will be a distinct proposal in its implementation. And Mr. Evanov, you have
filed numerous theories of what a competitive format on the section -- on
the frequencies that are available would do to your existing stations, et
cetera, so I think it's only fair -- and then you have said, of course, it
is a competitive format. It's only fair, I think, to discuss, in greater detail,
whether this will be a competitive format for some more distinct
2105 I would ask you, for example -- I gather, from
the comments I have heard today, in the application, that you won't be able to
say what kind -- to niche -- to find a format that you can
characterize the music that will be on; you won't be able to say it's a dance
format or a contemporary format or -- is that correct? Or will there be a
music format identifiable?
2106 MR. EVANOV: The format will be not a music-driven
format. The format is a full-service format where, I believe, the spoken word is
almost 40-45 per cent of the format and then music, perhaps, bridges the various
elements of the spoken word, together -- and even in that, the music
selection is right across the spectrum. As mentioned, it contains everything,
and you might compare it to sort of a block programming, but not necessarily
block -- and maybe Carmela can expand on that a little better.
2107 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, the answer is that it won't be a
distinguishable format that one could put a label on; it will cross over many
2108 MR. EVANOV: It will cross over -- I'm
sorry -- it will cross over many formats. It is not one specific format,
with one specific demo. We are not coming to you saying, we are going to reach
the 18-24 with this demo or the, you know, 35-44 with that demo. No. This is
right across the board. You might picture a small town somewhere where one small
radio station is trying to serve the entire town and provide that whole
population with a total variety of music rather than one selection of --
one specific selection of music.
2109 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to ask you a very
specific question so that you understand what I'm trying to get at.
2110 If I look at your supplementary brief, at paragraph
24.4 -- it's not paginated, so -- you talk about, here, the
programming schedule, which you attached. The format will include 40 to 45 per
cent spoken word, on week days, and that you will offer a full-service morning
show called "Wake Up Toronto", from six-to-10.
2111 Now, let's say it's peak driving time. You say that
it will include traffic reports, weather forecasts and six to eight musical
selections per hour, the majority either pop, rock or dance.
2112 I understand that it will also, during that
period -- which is a large period, six-to-10 -- that there would be
interviews and features dealing with issues, subjects, reviews of interests to
the gay community. That part, the spoken word part, the open-line programming is
easier to understand.
2113 But during the real peak hour, I'm in my car, going
to work, in Toronto, what will that peak drive time be? Will it be the usual
weather forecasts, traffic reports, newscasts, interspersed with pop, rock or
2114 MS LAURIGNANO: Madam Chair, it will be that and more,
and that -- what the distinction is it's the "more". In terms
2115 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand during the six-to-10
period there will be more. But what do you consider the peak drive time, in the
morning, and what will be in that peak area?
2116 See, everyone at this hearing is interested in
telling us how they will offer diversity, how they would be different, they will
have no impact and they will have something that was never there, and we have to
kind of look at, well, what are the indices of how different it will be if it is
the last, last, last frequency? Do we give it for children? -- well, that's
not your case because that's AM. Do we give it for what you call a gay-friendly
radio station? Do we give it for a Christian radio station?
2117 So we have to have a fair idea of what is likely to
be on the air that will be different in as many day parts as possible as what we
2118 MS LAURIGNANO: Could I ask Mr. Linney to address
that? Because he's got a breakdown.
2119 MR. LINNEY: Madam Wiley, you keep coming back to
music and we keep coming back to the point that up to 45 per cent of our
programming day is spoken word, again, because we are serving a very unique
community, in a very unique way.
2120 One of the reasons why we are proposing this type of
format, or service, for FM is because the frequency, ideally, matches where the
gay population is in Toronto; it happens to be --
2121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. My question was: Describe
to me what the peak drive time will be in the morning. The general concept I
think I understand. I'm just trying to look at peak hours for radio. What will
the peak drive time hour radio station be? What will it be? Will it -- I'm
not saying -- you said I go back to music. I'm reading from your own
application, where you say what six-to-10 will be, and I'm trying to break it
down into a narrower time frame and get you to speak of what will be on the hour
at that time. Because, just like Mr. Evanov is concerned about the effect on his
existing station of us giving the 93.5 frequency to someone who will have a
competitive format to his station, there will be others who will be concerned
about whether your radio station, as planned, is not going to be that much
different from theirs. I'm just trying to give you the opportunity to clarify
further for us just how will it be different.
2122 I understand the open-line programming and issues.
I'm talking about peak hours on radio.
2123 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, for example, the peak hours will
be the morning and the drive, in terms of a general attraction of audience, or
the audience which is likely to be attracted to the radio station. It's more
convenient to listen to it. As you know, there's people who are driving, they
are doing -- so we expect that those peak hours will be important and be
2124 By the same token, we do -- because of the
full-service nature, there is going to be blocks of time when people will make
it a point to tune in, whether it's for a talk show, whether it's for a specific
music program, whether it's for, you know, some update, which could be local
sports, whether it's for a community calendar, which we intend to broadcast,
highlighting, you know, what's happening in the community.
2125 So, in terms of, let's say, what the morning show
would sound like, there will be -- let's say we take a six-to-10 a.m.
block. There's going to be a major newscast, at seven, eight and nine o'clock;
there will be surveillance reports, as we said, 12 occasions; there is
information, interviews and features. It's going to be interactive. And we are
expecting to play no more than eight musical selections an hour in
2126 But we do have a list prepared. You may want to take
a look at that. We would be happy to file it.
2127 But, basically, again, it's music that is very
broad-based. It's a community that encompasses all age groups, all musical
tastes and we will incorporate that in the program.
2128 Does that --
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.
2130 Your Canadian talent development, in your --
what you detail in Schedule 4, which is the $27,000 to the talent plan, and then
an additional $50,000 which is divided in a number of proposals, and in your
deficiency -- in the response to the deficiency letter, at page 8, you
confirm that it's the total amount of $77,000 a year that you are committed
2131 Would you -- I don't think we asked whether you
were prepared to commit to this amount, per year, for a seven-year licence term,
if that's what you would have.
2132 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, we would be very prepared to
commit to it. And I can also assure that this is a minimum guarantee, as we
stated. We hope to exceed it in every way we can. And, of course, it doesn't
take into account any indirect contributions that we hope to make. But,
definitely, we commit to that.
2133 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, just a few questions about your
2134 One -- I'm looking at Schedule 4 -- is
$30,000 yearly to Canadian Music Week, which is a fair amount of money, and
that -- this is an initiative to allocate to support gay
2135 Now, will these funds be allocated to the artists
themselves? How will you allocate this sum, per year, on this
2136 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. What we have is we have a letter
on file, and an agreement with Canadian Music Week, which is dated
September 10, 1999, where we have a commitment that, for the 30,000 we have
undertaken with Canadian Music Week, to develop inclusion in not just the talent
and the showcasing but also in the development of seminars, the educational
programs and those kinds of things that Canadian Music Week does.
2137 I don't have a specific number for you but I would
insist, and I can tell you, that a significant amount of that would go directly
to the artists, as well, because part is to showcase.
2138 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the Canadian Music Week, the
$30,000 is different from the $20,000, which is the Talent Showcase
2139 How are these different from --
2140 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, they are. They are two separate
2141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And if we are still speaking
about the money to Canadian Music Week, that will be devoted for the promotion
or helping sponsoring gay artists and it will include the type of activities
that you have just spoken of.
2142 Now, with the $20,000 to showcase talent within the
community of prominent Toronto venues, can you give us an example of how that
money will be allocated and used?
2143 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes. That will be a direct payment to
artists and performers in that. We expect that the community will, you know,
rally with us. There are several venues, avenues, where we can co-operate, on a
joint basis, so that we can gather other resources to pay for other things to
stage the event. But the 20,000 would be a direct payment to artists and
performers, in conjunction with that event.
2144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, we will speak about the spoken
part of your proposal, which will probably be easier -- yes, I can
2145 In your supplementary brief, at paragraph 21.1, where
you speak about the concept, and you have spoken a number of times, in response
to my questions this morning, about the general concept that it would be --
I am quoting from your paragraph -- that it will be a unique service,
designed to meet the cultural and social needs of a specific cultural group in
Toronto that actively involves an estimated 365,000 people. And I think that the
research conducted, by Cue Two -- at page 8, there is a, I think it's a
quote, perhaps, from someone, but anyway I'm quoting: the element of the
interconnectivity, through call-in programs, will be of particular interest for
that group. So you, obviously, are responding to this where it's more obvious
that this will, then, be the part of your proposal that will more understandably
and easily achieve your aim when you try to imagine what the station will look
2146 So I'm trying to look at the number of open-line
programming shows that there will be, which I think will be that largest source
of this interactivity and of giving a voice to this community.
2147 Straight Talk, then, is one from -- I'm using
the program schedule that you attached -- you probably know where it is.
It's attached to --
2148 MS LAURIGNANO: I have it in front of me.
2149 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have it?
2150 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes.
2151 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can't remember exactly what it was
2152 Okay. From looking at this, now, we have Straight
Talk, which would be 10-to-noon, every day, on week days --
2153 MS LAURIGNANO: And Saturday. As well as Saturday.
Monday through Saturday.
2154 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is Saturday the Byline? No. Then
there's an additional one on Sunday, nine-to-11, called the Byline?
2155 MS LAURIGNANO: That's correct.
2156 THE CHAIRPERSON: So six days of Straight Talk. The
2157 Would it be fair to say that the Teen Something show
will also be an open-line or somewhat of an open-line interactive -- I get
this from looking at the description of the program.
2158 MS LAURIGNANO: That is correct. It will be very
2159 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then, would it be fair to say
that Community Access may also fall into not open -- well, perhaps
open-line programming -- I'm just referring to the guidelines and the
particular issue that may be raised in this case because this type of
programming may get challenged to those who hold more traditional views of
sexuality and, therefore, more likely to create the type of difficulty that
open-line programming can create.
2160 You also have a plan, which I see in paragraph
21.6.1, about Speaker's Corner. That's in your supplementary brief. And I gather
that some of that may end up on the station as well. Correct?
2161 MS LAURIGNANO: That is correct.
2162 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those would all be programming of an
2163 And I haven't done the calculation of what the
percentage of talk programming is. Do you know?
2164 I know that you have 42 -- spoken word
programming is indicated as 40.8 per cent of the broadcast week and 42 to 45 on
week days. Is that correct? From which I would have to take away the newscasts
and so on. So a high percentage would be open-line programming of the spoken
2165 MS LAURIGNANO: Also, the News Magazine that you see,
from Monday through Sunday -- which is an entertainment news
magazine -- that, too, is very much interactive; so there will be
opportunity in there for open-line engagement and open-line
2166 THE CHAIRPERSON: Interestingly, so that I'm
not -- you, yourself, at one point, have talked about one program being a
program that you describe as dealing with less controversial issues.
2167 So, I gather there's an understanding, or an
acknowledgement for you, that -- by you, that this may require a little
more sensitivity on the part of the broadcaster who is responsible for what gets
on the air.
2168 MS LAURIGNANO: That's correct. And, in fact, one of
the reasons why we instituted the Community Access program after, you know, some
of the research that we conducted -- and I myself was witness to the focus
groups observatory point of view -- and talking with the community itself,
we felt that that particular hour, one hour a week, would be a good thing for us
to have, in terms of, one, giving access to, perhaps, you know, interests or
issues or things that are upcoming in the community that normally wouldn't get
that much time dedicated, because we do have to keep strict programming and we
have to follow some sort of order, but, secondly, as well, in consultation with
the advisory committee, we felt that, at some point or other, we may need to
balance the views, you know, that could stem from a talk show, or that kind of
thing, and that's what would be a great avenue to do that. And, of course, we
would promote it as such, as well. So, it's a little meeting place for all kinds
2169 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have open-line programming,
now, on either of the stations? On CHOW, for example?
2170 MS LAURIGNANO: Not open-line programming, per se, but
on CHOW, we do have a lot of very interactive programs and talk-type, you know,
where, depending on the language or the cultural group we are serving, there is
interactivity, or the producers will do that on occasional basis rather than a
2171 THE CHAIRPERSON: What distinction do you make, or do
you make one, between open-line programming and interactivity? I'm using
"open-line" as an ability of someone who -- to respond to a broadcaster and
get involved in a conversation on air. Is that what you mean by "interactivity"?
And if so -- the words are fairly interchangeable.
2172 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, I would agree with
2173 The distinction I was making is that -- see, the
interactive was in terms of offering people, you know, occasional or not a
sustained sort of open-line programming; there could be music in between and,
you know, the topic of the day. But, yes, it is --
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2174 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were asked by the staff to
express your views about your understanding of the open-line programming
guidelines or policy of the Commission and responded that you were well
aware -- and, in fact, I see, today, that you have filed
2175 Before we look at them very briefly, because I
haven't had time to really read them, tell me what has been your experience with
interactive programming on the station that you operate now.
2176 MS LAURIGNANO: Well, the experience is, I'm sure, not
uncommon with a lot of other broadcasters have had. Basically, when you are
engaged in that kind of thing, you have to be vigilant and foresee that you
could have a problem, in terms of that a view has not been balanced, or there's
a lack of view for balance of view, that there's an opportunity for an abusive
comment, or there's an opportunity for a complaint.
2177 THE CHAIRPERSON: So how do you go about forestalling
that or dealing with it if it occurs?
2178 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. Well, there is a few major
areas. One is that we operate now, and we would operate, on a time delay for
those kinds of things to make sure that, you know, the operator and the people
who were responsible had an opportunity to edit if that thing came along.
Definitely, there is guidelines, and there is training for all on-air staff
outlining what their responsibilities are, in terms of stereotyping or, you
know, making abusive comments, that kind of thing. We post, very prominently,
and it's a matter of policy that the codes, both voluntary and the ones that we
subscribe to, are adhered to at all times, and everybody's aware; it's part of
their training. The program director oversees that. Also, the station manager is
2179 In the case of complaints, for example, everyone is
instructed that those have to be brought to the highest level, as soon as they
happen, no matter how they come in, and they are dealt with in a proper and
expedient way, in most cases.
2180 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the Community Access,
will there be -- this won't be on air immediately, will it? This is
something -- a secret corner in Toronto, from what I gather, and it will be
taped and then choices made as to what goes on air?
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2181 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it will be that much easier, in
that case, because it will be delayed, and I suppose it's then not as important
how you pre-screen or pre-arrange what will get on because you have an ex post
facto power to decide not to --
2182 MS LAURIGNANO: -- you will see, as well, that
our production people are the ones who would be responsible that are subject to
the same training and understanding of the guidelines and the policies, as well
as our newspeople. We would expect that, you know, guests who are either
pre-recorded or, you know, newsmakers or controversial people that, first of
all, they would be advised that, you know, the thing was going on air and that
they would be sensitive to that. So even the production people, the ones who
would be assembling it, would be familiar with the guidelines.
2183 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you acknowledge that this may be
a little more challenging than what you have been used to before and
that -- not only because of the community and the possibility of
challenging people's views of the world but also because they will be a larger
proportion of content, so vigilance will be even more
2184 MS LAURIGNANO: In fact, if I can just add one more
thing -- sorry to interrupt you -- one of the purposes of the advisory
committee is, in fact, to give us some input and some guidelines into, you know,
what issues are appropriate, what their wisdom is as members of the communities
who are working with the community. They will be apprised of complaints that
have -- that come in. In some cases, where we can get their help in helping
to resolve those, we will do that. We will also keep a report of complaints, as
they come in -- not that we received many, but we will have a full report
there -- and, of course, will work the Broadcast Council, as well, in that
2185 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, coverage, not necessarily in
the technical sense but in the size of the community you will be aiming
at -- I see Professor Valverde has left. I thought she was leaving at two.
Apparently she may be the one with the answers. But Schedule 17 says that there
will be 365,000 gay people in the area covered by 93.5.
2186 How have these numbers been arrived at?
2187 MS LAURIGNANO: I'm going to pass that to Mr.
2188 MR. LINNEY: Professor Valverde, unfortunately, had a
class that started at two, so she needed an hour to get out to the University of
Toronto and she regrets that she had to leave.
2189 She, as you mentioned, was instrumental in helping us
to try to determine exactly the potential size of the market.
2190 Because, obviously, sexual orientation is not one of
the questions asked in any kind of formal survey, nor has there been, ever, an
official study done, we relied on the expertise of people or companies already
involved in covering the gay communication, such as publications; we relied on
the expertise of the University of Toronto and studies that the Sexology
Department has done.
2191 The estimates range from 5 per cent of the general
population, as high as 20 per cent of the population, so we picked a median in
between and estimated that the gay population, the gay community, in Toronto,
represents 12 per cent of the population -- which is how the circulation
was arrived at.
2192 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have not conducted some
demographic profile type of research on your own, other than Professor
Valverde's advice and publications like Extra.
2193 With regard to the advertisers, how do you think the
advertisers are reaching this community now? Or are they not?
2194 MR. EVANOV: At the present time, the advertisers are
using, almost exclusively, print media. There's a publication called the Pink
Pages, very similar to the Yellow Pages, and we have gone through
2195 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- a little close to your
2196 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry.
2197 THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought I would give some advice
to a radio person.
--- Laughter / Rires
2198 MR. EVANOV: They don't let me in the studio at the
--- Laughter / Rires
2199 MR. EVANOV: As a matter of fact, they lock the doors
when I come by.
--- Laughter / Rires
2200 MR. EVANOV: We looked at a number -- we looked
at numerous publications in the area because, obviously, there is no gay radio
station and there is no gay radio television station or cable service or
speciality channel, but there is an abundance of print media available to this
market, and the reason it's very successful is that there are no other options
for anyone else. It's too cost effective for an advertiser to go on mainstream
radio and buy five or six or seven radio stations hoping to reach this
particular market. We examined Pink Pages, which is very similar to the Yellow
Pages -- and we do have copies here -- but they list 1,000 advertisers
in the Pink Pages, and that's both gay and gay-friendly businesses, and our
assessment was that anywhere between 80 and 90 per cent you will never, never
hear on radio; they are just not there. Which is one of the reasons, I think,
encouraged us to bring forward this application, because that's a lot of new
revenue we can bring to the radio industry and broadcasting.
2201 We looked at Extra Magazine and it's the same
situation: there were, perhaps, 100 advertisers in that magazine that also use
mere print exclusively -- or 90 per cent of them, we felt, used print
exclusively. And the same thing with NOW and I-Weekly Magazine, which are very
gay-friendly: they appeal to the overall population but they are very
gay-friendly, you know; their editorial boards and their writers are a
combination of from the straight community to the gay community. We have also
received -- but there is an abundance of print media out there, and that
will carry on. But all we are saying is that there is no radio station to seek
out these budgets, you know. We have received letters from Air Canada and
Labatt's -- they are filed with the intervention. Now that would go to
increased budget rather than brand new, but, you know, there's a few good
examples here. Air Canada is very interested in this particular market, whether
it be destinations, whether it's San Francisco, Toronto, or the reverse, coming
to -- I mean San Francisco, New York, or the reverse, coming to Toronto,
because those are the three large gay centres in North America. But, also, a
large part of their budget would go to promote business class travel because
they realize the number of professionals in the gay community that -- you
know, whether it be accountants, lawyers, business people, stockbrokers,
bankers. So we have a budget there should this materialize.
2202 Just locally -- well, north of Toronto, outside
of the city, is Canada's Wonderland, and Canada's Wonderland hosts an annual gay
day, but, to date, they can't really use mainstream radio to promote that; they
use -- they have print media. But we know that they will increase budget
and use this particular radio station to promote and inform about that
2203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Evanov, I'm looking at your
deficiency responses, at page 5, question 2.
2204 From the clarification you just gave, I would have
thought that you wouldn't have much of an impact on local radio stations if
advertisers are now trying to reach the communities via mainstream
2205 Do I understand that the breakdown of the
revenue -- the sources of revenue, that 40 per cent local market radio
stations is advertising, that would be lost to existing radio stations? Because
I would think it would be additional. If they are now targeting the mainstream
and the gay people together, they will continue targeting the mainstream and now
add advertising on that station. Why would there be 40 per cent from existing
stations as a source of your revenue?
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2206 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- 40 per cent from local
market radio stations, 30 per cent increase in advertising budget -- from
your recent comments, I understand that -- and 30 per cent from other
media -- I understand that -- which would be, presumably, targeted
medias and the media reallocation of budget. But what is the 40 per cent? What
does it mean? Considering what you just said.
2207 MR. EVANOV: We have budgeted a figure, in any
realistic situation, and I would think with the other format, you know, we would
estimate -- and this is based on my experience of many years in the
market -- a good 50 per cent, even higher, comes from existing radio
stations. When we did our application, we didn't want to submit numbers to you
that you felt would be very -- too low, and we talked about it, we looked
at the various advertisers, we came up with 40 per cent and we said even that's
probably a high figure but, automatically, some money comes from existing
advertisers to a new radio station, and ours would be the least impact, only
because there is so much business out there, and there could be certain budgets
shifted around. Automatically, some budgets will shift with every -- with
the entry of a new radio service on a market, so I'm not going to tell you that
no money will come from any other radio station. I will tell you that any money
coming to this particular radio station will not come from any one source, or
two sources, in the City of Toronto, but a variety of radio stations from all
over the city.
2208 I'm going to ask our sales manager, Ky Lein, just
maybe to add something to that, if she could, please.
2209 MS JOSEPH-LEIN: Thank you, Bill.
2210 I would also like to add that, yes, we did project 40
per cent of revenue coming from local radio stations; however, if you look at
the share has projected -- that has been projected, that's only $792,000.
That is, in fact, .5 of 1 per cent of the entire revenue that was generated
by radio, in 1998. That is really a very small portion.
2211 I would also like to add that, through the process of
this application, we have been continuing to do research and, personally, I have
gone out to 40 businesses that I feel would be solid advertisers for Rainbow
Radio and, as a sales professional, I can tell you that I'm quite used to
rejection -- not too high of a percentage, but I'm used to
rejection -- and not one person, not one business out of those 40
businesses said, "No, I would not be interested". They were very interested.
They were excited at the fact that they might have another medium that they
would be able to either redirect advertising dollars to or create new
advertising budgets -- and that is so exciting for us, as broadcasters, to
see that we could bring a whole new stream of revenue into radio.
2212 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, perhaps what you are saying is
that a 40 per cent is high and the 30 per cent increase in advertising budgets
is low -- which would be more logical from the comments you are making.
2213 MR. EVANOV: Yes.
2214 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- now, people, who want to
pitch to that community have to do it via mainstream. Well, they are not going
to stop pitching to mainstream and also --
2215 MS LAURIGNANO: -- we are experienced
broadcasters and we just know how it works. Basically, let's face it, if you are
in your first year, you are -- first, we know the potential in the market.
We know where the efficient community is. We are talking to advertisers who are
not traditional advertisers for radio, so it's going to take a while to build.
So, what you do is, if you are realistic and you tell the truth, you go to those
people who are already converted, and those are your people who are advertising
on radio. So, in that sense, yes, there's 40 -- after the 40 per cent will
come from there; and then, from there, it will develop. But what's significant
is the impact. Because, as we have demonstrated, in our research, the audience
is not going to come from any particular radio station, from any particular
music format, so the impact is really the least of all the applicants, in our
view, for this reason.
2216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my questions are not unrelated
to those that we will discuss after lunch, which is impact on your station from
any licensing action by us.
2217 Before we break for lunch, we have discussed with
most applicants whether there are other frequencies that could be used to
accommodate their proposals -- and this is a highly competitive proceeding,
and in light of the fact that your proposal, albeit on FM, will be quite highly
the spoken word, have you looked at other options that may be available on the
AM band? -- And one that experienced broadcasters have been asked to
comment on is, for example, between 1605 kHz and 1705 kHz on AM, which would be
the expanded portion of the band.
2218 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, the answer is, no, we haven't
looked. We proceeded on this application based on the call, which was for the
available frequencies 740 and 93.5. We looked at the technical primaries of
93.5. The area was served by a number of formats that, really, when we looked at
what the best use of a frequency was, and having identified the market that was
niched, that lived in the area, geographically located there, we proceeded on
that basis. So, we have not.
2219 And, quite frankly, the use of the FM as a full
service for both talk and music is quite exciting, because there is part of the
music format that -- there's even classical on the weekends. So
2220 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, you don't see AM for this
proposal as a viable alternative at all?
2221 MS LAURIGNANO: What we see -- is it possible?
Yes, it's a viable alternative. However, I must say that, in our view, it's not
the best use of frequency, based on where the community is and based, as I said,
on the call.
2222 THE CHAIRPERSON: By that, you mean the gay community
which, I think, you identify as --
2223 MS LAURIGNANO: Downtown --
2224 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- being in the area covered
2225 We will break for lunch, and then, as I said earlier,
we will have some questions about impact of the proposals that are before us and
of your proposal on others. So we will resume at 2:30.
2226 Alors, nous rependrons à deux heures et demie.
--- Recess at 1:10 p.m. / Suspension à 1:10 p.m.
--- Upon resuming at 2:36 p.m. / Reprise à 2:36 p.m.
2227 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order. Please be seated.
2228 Welcome back, Mr. Evanov and your
2229 I have, as I mentioned this morning, some questions
related to the financial information that you filed, in confidence, with the
Commission, in part, outlining or illustrating what you perceive to be the
financial impact on CKMW -- that is, on its two stations, CIDC-FM and
CHOW-AM -- as a result of this hearing, and I have a few questions about
the assumptions that underlie these projections.
2230 So, just so we use the same material, I have
Appendices A and B, which were filed in response to the deficiency question, by
the staff, which outline the actual results for CIDC-FM and CHOW-AM at the end
of 1999 and projections to August, 2000, then Appendices C and D, which are
seven-year financial projections for the CIDC and CHOW if you were licensed on
93.5, presumably, on the proposal before us, and then Appendices E and F, which
are seven-year financial projections for CHOW and CIDC if there is a denial of
93.5 to you and it's granted to a contemporary format, or one that you
considered to be competitive, and also of both a contemporary format to someone
else on 93.5 and 740 being granted to an ethnic station, so the combination of
those two, what the effect would be on CHOW, so we know what we are talking
2231 Over and above that, you have, of course, the usual
projections for 93.5 for your proposal.
2232 And also factored into this is the -- well, at
least the severity of the -- the temporary severity of the impact of the
change in format of CISS-FM on CIDC. I say "temporary" because you say that you
will improve the situation over time.
2233 And then also factored in is whether or not the
application that you, by deference, to change the transmitter of CIDC is
approved or not.
2234 Have I got that straight?
2235 Is an approval -- a technical amendment of
CIDC-FM actually in all of these? Is it assumed in all of these appendices?
Because it's not always clear from the assumption that it assumes an improvement
in CIDC, a technical -- that the amendment is approved.
2236 MR. EVANOV: Yes, it assumes that our technical
amendments with CIDC are improved somewhat.
2237 THE CHAIRPERSON: Suppose the other assumptions were
to come through -- that is, you either -- you are licensed on 93.5, or
somebody else is, and for some reason the amendment is not approved, can you
give me an order of magnitude of the difference in these projections that would
result from a non-approvement of the CIDC amendment?
2238 MR. EVANOV: Yes, we will. I'm going to ask our
comptroller, Mike Kilbride, to dig out the information -- and as we are
doing that, I do want to mention that when we filed the application to the
Commission to improve our technical parameters with CIDC that was done based on
the work we had assembled last spring, and I think we filed in early July, and
we hoped that would have been dealt with before getting into this particular
hearing, but that was not the case. So, when we did file, we made the assumption
that something would be improved with CIDC and, for that reason, we filed in
2239 We have worked our financial statements that would
also show -- although not submitted to the Commission -- but we have
worked out financial statements that would show the impact on CIDC if those
amendments were not changed or improved. So I'm not sure which to start with
now, but you want a comparison of --
2240 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, since you tell me that what
you filed in this particular application always assumes an approval of the
amendment of CIDC, if your worst case scenario -- which would be that the
Commission licenses what you consider a competitive format to someone else on
93.5 -- if it also refused your amendment, what would be the addition to
the loss that you are projecting if you have a competitor on 93.5?
2241 Am I not making myself clear?
2242 MR. EVANOV: I understand you clearly, now.
2243 We were going to talk in percentages, if that's fine
with you. These were filed in confidence.
2244 THE CHAIRPERSON: Give me an order of magnitude of how
much worse the situation would be if 93.5 was granted to another applicant and
CIDC was refused.
2245 The reason I'm asking is you tell me that the
amendment is assumed in the projections that show the impact of 93.5 being
licensed to a competitive format.
2246 MR. EVANOV: Okay, if I can just consult with my
comptroller for a moment, I just want to make sure these --
2247 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not want exact numbers. I just
want to know just how much did you factor in.
2248 MR. EVANOV: Yes.
--- Pause / Pause
2249 MR. EVANOV: Our comptroller informs me what we have
is the projections if 93.5 is approved and the tower application
2250 I don't have one for denial in both cases.
2251 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have an order of
magnitude of how much better the situation would be for CIDC with the
2252 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, I wonder if you
could tell me better than what, better than -- which scenario we would use
as a base scenario.
2253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm looking at the scenario
that gives me -- well, there are two scenarios. One is the impact on CIDC
if CIDC were licensed to you, and it tells me that -- and then a scenario
where 93.5 were granted to someone other than CIDC on a format competitive with
2254 I don't want to make that too complicated, but I'm
wondering whether it makes a big difference if CIDC were or were not allowed to
amend. In accordance with the application that we will hear later on this
2255 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Chairman, I think I can
extrapolate -- we don't have a projection prepared for that, but I can tell
you that the losses that are projected, which would confirm 93.5 awarded to a
competitive format, that takes into account an approval of the technical
amendment to move the tower. Okay? And those losses which are shown in, I
believe, 1 through 7, those losses would be substantially increased without the
approval of the technical amendment. By "substantial", I mean an order of
magnitude in --
2256 THE CHAIRPERSON: Increased? Not decreased?
2257 MR. KILBRIDE: If the tower is denied.
2258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have Appendix F?
2259 MR. KILBRIDE: Appendix F?
2260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is the impact on CIDC-FM if
93.5 is awarded to a competitive format.
2261 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.
2262 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question is: Are the losses in
there reflecting, as well -- not reflecting -- are they reflecting, in
one way or the other, whether the CIDC amendment is allowed?
2263 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.
2264 THE CHAIRPERSON: What's the order of magnitude of the
help you will get from the amendment?
2265 MR. KILBRIDE: The losses that are projected reflect
they include the help we would get from approval of the technical
2266 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the losses are decreased. Right?
You lose from having 93.5 on another frequency but you are helped by the
2267 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.
2268 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the losses are decreased not
2269 MR. KILBRIDE: The losses would be increased if the
technical amendment is not approved.
2270 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay. Or decreased if the
amendment is approved?
2271 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.
2272 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't get hit with
2273 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.
2274 THE CHAIRPERSON: And can you -- I didn't know
this would be so complicated.
2275 What's the order of magnitude factored in of the
improvement from the amendment of CIDC?
2276 MR. KILBRIDE: If you give me just one second, I will
look at the comparison.
2277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I will pursue -- I
didn't know this would be so complex.
2278 But there are a number of things factored in here.
Right? You have an amendment, which will improve your situation. If you have
93.5, it will have an effect on CIDC. If it's licensed to someone else, it will
have an even worse effect. And then CHOW will be affected if 740, or anything,
goes to an ethnic station.
2279 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.
2280 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because my impression is that CKMW
is putting forward as an issue that what the Commission should be looking at is
the impact of its licensing decisions on CKMW as an existing broadcaster. Is
2281 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.
2282 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the severity of that move is
whether or not you are the lucky licensee of 93.5, if someone else, whether it's
a competitive format, et cetera, and whether the amendment of CIDC is approved
also is factored in, so I'm trying to see what the reasonableness of these
projected scenarios are since we are supposed to take them into
2283 In the Appendix D, which looks at if 93.5 is awarded
to CKMW, in the key assumptions made, you say that the economies of scale, as a
result of approval of 93.5 application, are reflected entirely in the
projections for 93.5 and not reflected in the projections for CIDC. Why is
2284 MR. EVANOV: Actually, we said -- it was the
other way around. I think we said that they were reflected in the CIDC
2285 THE CHAIRPERSON: The assumption -- I believe I
have a photocopy here.
2286 The economies of scale, as a result of approval of
the 93.5-FM application, are reflected entirely in the projections submitted for
that application and are not provided for in these projections.
2287 Do you have --
2288 MR. EVANOV: The savings are -- okay. I'm sorry.
It's the savings that are reflected in the 93.5 application.
2289 THE CHAIRPERSON: But why would there not also be some
savings from scale if you have two licences on FM and one on AM rather than just
two in CIDC as well?
2290 MR. EVANOV: What we would do is we would use the
synergy of three radio stations and, at year end, pro rate the cost savings
among the three radio stations pro rata to the revenue brought in by each radio
2291 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that Appendix D would --
could have results that are even better than is shown here because the economies
of scale would be apportioned to it, as well?
2292 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, I think I can
2293 It's true that, depending upon the accounting in
future years, that projection labelled "Appendix D" could look a little better.
But the idea in preparing this, to have some consistent format, was to look at
what the marginal costs would be to operate a new frequency under 93.5, and when
we projected those figures and we came up with the actual projected operating
costs, we took into account the fact that some costs would not be incurred
because things such as the studio is already built and in place, the physical
facility and plant is in place, the telephone system is in place to operate an
additional station. No marginal costs would be incurred. And then, once we have
done that and projected that and we were asked about the deficiencies, if we
took the same costs out of this projection in Appendix D, it would, in fact, be
misleading; we would have taken them out of both projections.
2294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in these same assumptions, in
this Appendix D, you say that the comparable sales benefits are reflected
in the CIDC projections and not in the 93.5 application. Why is that?
2295 MR. EVANOV: They are in the projections but we didn't
break them, specifically, to show them.
2296 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me clarify. I don't have the
originals with me.
2297 At the bottom of these appendices, do you have some
bullet-form paragraphs under the rubric key assumptions?
2298 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes; I have got that in front of
2299 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just so that we are singing from the
same hymn book, I suppose.
2300 You say that the new station, if you were the
successful applicant on 93.5, would benefit -- both the stations would
benefit from a combined sales effort approach.
2301 Can you explain how such an approach would be carried
on in a competitive market like the GTA?
2302 MR. EVANOV: I guess, basically, in this day and age
of multiple ownership and combos, it's increasingly difficult for an independent
to get budgets from advertising agencies; you are probably fifth, sixth,
seventh, tenth in line or whatever.
2303 In this particular case, we could combo a portion of
the Rainbow Radio audience in a particular demo that might complement the CIDC
demo. So it's not a total combo. It would be restricted in many ways because
Rainbow Radio has a wide spectrum of age listening, whereas CIDC is more
specific target to a specific demo 18-24 -- 18-24. But by doing that, we
can offer advertising agencies perhaps a larger BBM share in the overall Toronto
CMA. I'm approaching it from the sales perspective right now.
2304 But even there, it's limited, in terms of sales, but
we estimate that perhaps 3 per cent of the total sales of 93.5 would initially
come from maybe a combo situation in national and some retail.
2305 Now, each station would have its own separate sales
force and would work totally independent but would work together, in terms of
securing combo buys, in the face of multiple ownerships. That's from the sales
2306 In terms of the synergies between the two and three
stations -- is that what was the previous question? I'm not
2307 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since you assumed that there will be
benefits from combo sales, I was just curious as to how, in this market, this
would materialize, or operate.
2308 MR. EVANOV: Well, I think the other factor is --
and this is a very important one -- Rainbow Radio is a downtown Toronto
signal and I think, in the 3 millivolt, the population is 1.4 million. The
population of the Toronto CMA is 4.2 million. So any small radio station in
downtown Toronto is going to have a difficult time getting any advertising
agency buys because all your buys through the agencies, retail-national, are
predicated on BBM numbers that only give you the measurement for the entire CMA.
I know we have made the same argument with the other station, previously, but
the numbers they are buying are Toronto CMA numbers, which is based on 4.2
million population; whereas the population in the 3 millivolt of 93.5 is only
1.4 million. Therefore, the station in Toronto, that's why we projected a
two-share, and we think our revenue estimates are very conservative and in line
with reality. You can only do so much national business. I think we have capped
ours at 20 per cent. And it's based on that limited reach, with the limited
signal. But by combining some of these synergies, in terms of audience, with the
two stations, we will be able to secure some buys that perhaps, right now, we
are getting knocked out on. You know, if we did -- you know, there's
various scenarios that we have gone through, and it would depend on the ages of
the groups that we are putting together.
2309 And in terms of that selling synergy, I would like to
ask Ky just to maybe add a few words to this.
2310 MS JOSEPH-LEIN: Thank you, Bill.
2311 A perfect example of this loss of revenue due to
multiple ownership today would be Canada's Wonderland and the new CISS-FM. We
lost a large portion of our revenue last year. We are now only receiving about
50 per cent of last year's budget. And based on our research and projections, if
we were able to combo, we would be able to have at least secured 60, maybe 65
per cent of that budget. We probably still would have lost some but we --
you know, we are able to cover some of that revenue. So it is very important
that we are able to combo.
2312 As well, I would also like to mention that not having
the opportunity to combo puts both stations at a disadvantage, as Bill said,
because the 93.5 signal really is dedicated in the Toronto city, which CIDC-FM
does not penetrate, and vice versa the other way around. So it is very
important. In order to secure some kind of revenue, based on combo buys, in the
face of multiple ownership, it really is a necessity.
2313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I look at the projected
results for CIDC-FM, if your 93.5 application is approved, and if I looked at
your historical 1999, and projected 2000-2001 if you have your amendment, and
93.5 on your proposal, you would improve CIDC's performance by half a million
2314 How much of this would be attributable to your
recovery from the CISS change in format?
2315 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry. You said from the CIDC change
2316 THE CHAIRPERSON: I may have misspoken myself. CISS
change in format.
2317 And perhaps you can expand on -- my
understanding is -- well, the numbers show, if you project to the end of
2000, you claim quite a difference, as a result of the change in format of
CISS-FM, and you say somewhere that the full brunt of this will be experienced
in 2000 and then you will recover.
2318 So I'm asking you, that extra five million that is
projected, between 2000 and 2001, in revenues -- I'm talking about
revenues -- from CIDC getting 93.5, what is the amount that is attributable
to your recovery from CISS? Because, you know, presumably, there will be some
impact of you on 93.5 on CIDC and that would -- should be negative. Some
impact that will be positive because of the synergies, and some impact that will
be positive because you will be recovering, you tell us, from the change in
CISS-FM. So I would like you to expand on that.
2319 I'm going through this because all of this has been
filed as an extra reason in the Commission coming to a decision as to who should
get these frequencies which, I think we agreed earlier in the conversation, was
part of the logic that would say, "Don't do this to my station. Give me the
frequency first; and if not, don't give it to a competitor because this is what
it's going to do to my station." So I want you to explain to us further how you
arrive at all this.
2320 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, maybe I can answer
2321 I think if we look at -- you were starting with
Appendix D, I believe. That's the impact on CIDC if it receives the award of
2322 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And I'm comparing it to your
actual for 1999 and your projected from 2000, of CIDC, where the numbers are
supposed to be lower because of the effects of the change in format of
2323 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.
2324 And on that Appendix A that you just referred to, the
projections -- and I'm going to use the number here, although I know it's
confidential -- I think it's the $2.9 million number on Appendix
2325 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you can -- I have the
numbers. You can speak in percentages, or whatever, to
2326 MR. KILBRIDE: That absolute dollar difference is
about 568,000. And we project about $318,000 of that arises through the
association and the combo with 93.5. The balance of $250,000 is a result of the
assumption that we would have an approval of the technical amendment to move the
tower -- and that has an impact on CISS as well as other stations in the
2327 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we understand, now, what we
are talking about. I'm just trying to sort out the reasonableness of these
assumptions, since it's something put forward, as the reasons for licensing
action and the choices we make.
2328 Now, if you look at -- Mr. Evanov, would you
consider that your proposal on 93.5 will have any competitive effects on CIDC?
Or slow down the recovery from the change of format by CISS?
2329 MR. EVANOV: If you are asking the negative
impact -- I think that's what you are asking -- on CIDC, the answer
is, no. We have to keep in mind that -- I think Bob will refer to the
survey, in a minute, but there was a very few -- in terms of doing the
research in the gay community, there was a very low percentage that listened to
CIDC; the reason for that is they just can't get it, really, basically, in the
City of Toronto.
2330 The other factor to weigh in would be the fact that
93.5 is not targeting any specific demo -- and definitely not the CIDC
demo. We may play -- some of the music may be similar in certain day parts
but no one from CIDC will tune in to hear that music. If they tune in to 93.5
it's for very -- other reasons of more of information. So we see no loss
from CIDC to 93.5 whatsoever.
2331 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if we look at Appendix F, which
outlines the effects on CIDC if the Commission were to grant 93.5 to someone
else on a competitive format -- and, at the time, of course, you didn't
know which applications were before the Commission; now you do -- what are
the applications that you would consider a competitive format that would have
the effects outlined in Appendix F, if I compare it to Appendix A, and shows a
difference of a million in revenues between what you projected for CIDC to 2000
2332 So what are the formats that would be considered
competitive and would lead to this result which, in fact, in your projection
shows a loss for CIDC for seven years?
2333 Which one of the applications would you consider will
have -- would have that effect, were they approved?
2334 MR. EVANOV: The applications that perhaps mirror the
CIDC age demo and music would be, obviously, the Milestone application and the
Auguste application, because of the music styles that they are playing, the
target demo that they are -- the demo that they are targeting, which is
very similar to that of CIDC.
2335 One of our concerns here is that there are only so
many advertising agency dollars in the pot and if they are able to secure these,
with the shares that they have projected -- which are extremely high; CIDC
has a 1.8 share, or two share, in the Toronto CMA, and they have a four share or
an eight share -- there won't be any dollars left for our radio station,
and based on that, we made these projections.
2336 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if 93.5 were given to another
format, let's say, a Christian station, what effect -- what would Appendix
F look like?
2337 You know, you haven't done these, but what would be
an order of magnitude? Would there be any?
2338 MR. EVANOV: It would be less of an impact. There
would be some impact.
2339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now, let's look at
CHOW -- now that we know how this works.
2340 So, the same thing: you file for CHOW -- am I
saying this properly, CHOW? Yes. My linguistic skills are going; I was speaking
2341 So, for CHOW, you also filed results for 1999,
expected results for 2000 -- and that's Appendix B. And then, in Appendix
C, it shows what would happen if you receive 93.5 and no additional ethnic
station were licensed. And then Appendix E shows the impact on CHOW if an ethnic
station were licensed.
2342 In Appendix B, why are the assumptions for CIDC
included as underlying assumptions for CHOW?
2343 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry. Did you say B or C?
2344 THE CHAIRPERSON: Appendix B, where you have a
statement of income and expenditure for CHOW, historical for 1999 and expected
for 2000. And then, if you go to C, it shows you what the effect is if you get
93.5 and no additional ethnic station is licensed, but you seem to take into
consideration the same key assumptions that you did for CIDC.
2345 What effects do they have on CHOW? For example, the
change in formats of CISS, et cetera. Because they are not aggregated results.
I'm just curious. Did you just simply retype the key assumptions? What effect
does what happens to CIDC have on CHOW?
2346 MS LAURIGNANO: Are you referring to the assumptions
in Appendix C, "Impacts on CHOW"?
2347 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the bottom of Appendix B, in
projecting your results for CHOW, you take into consideration the results on
CIDC via the change in format of CISS-FM. Why?
2348 Maybe there is no -- there are improved figures,
between 1999 and 2000, so it may be you retyped these. You don't see any effect,
do you, on what happens to CIDC because of CISS on CHOW? Is there a financial
effect on CHOW?
2349 MS LAURIGNANO: No.
2350 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. So it's more -- do we all
agree that this is just not really relevant?
2351 Now, in Appendix C, you look at what would happen if
93.5 went to CKMW and there was no ethnic licence -- additional ethnic
2352 Why is there some improvement, as a result of that?
Why is it not the status quo for CHOW? What's the effect of you having 93.5, on
2353 MR. EVANOV: The improvement would come from the
synergy of the three stations and the various cost savings. And, also, when you
work with three stations, together, inevitability, it will lead to finding of
additional revenue here or there -- maybe not in great abundance, but
there's always extra contacts and referrals.
2354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I do note that it's a
small -- it's a small change.
2355 Now, what if 740 were granted for a format other than
ethnic? Do you see any impact at all on CHOW? Or is your concern only if it were
licensed to an ethnic station?
2356 MR. EVANOV: I think our concern was that if it were
licensed to an ethnic station.
2357 THE CHAIRPERSON: On the ethnic -- of the ethnic
proposals, are there any that would be a worst-case scenario effect on CHOW?
What would be the worst-case scenario of an additional ethnic service? Which
would be the worst -- generate the worst negative change for
2358 MR. EVANOV: Well, I think, basically, 740 being such
a strong and -- frequency, that any ethnic, any successful applicant on
that frequency would be able to pretty well dominate the ethnic market. And I
think Mr. Lombardi put it very nicely in one of his interventions when he
basically said that it would be the cannibalization of all the ethnic formats.
All the richer formats will go to the much bigger, stronger signal and the
weaker formats, or the weaker language groups, would remain on the old stations.
So, basically, the winner would win all. In terms of ethnic
2359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there not some changes or
alterations that can be made to be able to withstand competition if there's some
2360 MR. EVANOV: Well, AM 740 -- we are all familiar
with that from the 99.1 hearings and everything -- has a very wide range,
strong signal. CHOW-AM, we are licensed for Brampton and we provide, you know,
service for that area and all around, in terms of ethnic programming, but we are
one of six radio stations in Toronto that do ethnic, in the Toronto area. We are
one kilowatt daytime and 250 watts at night -- that's not a very powerful
station; you have light bulbs at home that are probably stronger than
that -- and a 250-watt station, at night, can't penetrate buildings as it
has to -- even Mississauga and Etobicoke, let alone the overall area. So,
we are at an extreme disadvantage. Our producers -- the wealthier programs
would gladly give that up to go to a much -- to the AM-740. There's no
--- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2361 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree, though, that 740,
if indeed it's not able to provide a good quality signal in central Toronto,
would have lesser impact because of -- depending on which ethnic population
you are looking to serve? I suspect that there would be some in inner city that
would not be well reached by 740.
2362 MR. EVANOV: Well, to be honest with you, 740 may have
certain little holes here and there, maybe right downtown -- but, then, the
ethnics don't live there; the gay population lives there.
2363 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's why you have such clever
applications. On CHOW, do you do religious programming as well or is it all
2364 MR. EMANOV: It's pretty well all ethnic. As a matter
of fact it is all ethnic. And there is some ethnic religious programs but
they're in the third line.
2365 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there is not a large proportion
like there is for some other broadcaster also?
2366 MR. EMANOV: No.
2367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now are we being unfair if we
characterize these scenarios as somewhat of a preemptive intervention against
granting an ethnic license to another broadcaster?
2368 MS LAURIGNANO: No, I think we're being realistic. One
of the reasons why we are so confused in trying to find the right piece of paper
is that we took into account all the possible scenarios.
2369 This is a big deck of cards and it could be shuffled
any number of ways and with that, of course, is the application for the
amendments to the technical parameters of CIBC. So there's not a mathematician,
but I am sure some accountants here could figure out the probabilities and
statistics of how any number of things could come out.
2370 However, I believe that any competitor of CHOW would
directly affected it. A bigger signal would definitely affect it. However, then
again, being realistic, and knowing how it is, that could be cushioned by other
considerations or other factors. So it really depends what the net affect of
2371 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we speak of meeting
competitions and recovery, etc., could you give me some examples of what it is
you can do to recover from the change in format of GISS-FM since you project
that the severity of the effect will be felt in 2000 and then it will improve
again? I don't want you to give me any business secrets, but what kind of
broadcast you do to meet competition of that source when it happens?
2372 MS LAURIGNANO: Well, I think one thing we don't do is
roll over and play dead. We are going to fight tooth and nails to intervene.
Wait till you see my match next week, Madam Chairwoman.
2373 Basically, we are business people and we will do
whatever we have to. You know, go out after different budget, after new sources
of revenue, cut expenses. We'll come before you for that technical amendment,
you know, so whatever --
2374 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about moving Toronto
2375 MS LAURIGNANO: No, actually, what we've done, is
we've got -- well, we're giving up our efforts to move the city to where we
are. So we are moving into the city hopefully to serve 93.5 if you allow us. So
we're going to the city.
2376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Wonderful. Mr. Emanov, keep that
lady on your team.
--- Laughter / Rires
2377 Now, if you look at, I think it's schedule 18, on the
second page, you have a list of assumptions there, and it is just a small
question, but I am curious.
2378 The following assumptions have also incorporated into
these projections and the last bullet says that you assume that no other radio
licences are issued beyond those posted in CRTC call 1999-119. I don't
understand that. What does this mean?
2379 MR. EVANOV: Well, we have made our projections on the
basis that there are probably three frequencies here that you may award and not
2380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that we don't suddenly
discover that there's three more last frequencies, okay. You have these
elaborate scenarios about the effect on your stations of licensing action. But
you've explained that, in your view, there would be a minimal impact on other
stations and I guess it's with the former applicant -- or not with you
anyway, but I think that you were in the room -- that I raised the concern
that people take the whole pie of Toronto and say: "Well, my station is only
going to get this amount of revenue. Even if you double it, it's going to be
2381 My suggestion that perhaps it doesn't work that way,
that depending on your format you could be not affecting one station and
affecting others more so that the impact increases proportionately. In the
research by Cuto Communications -- it's at page 18 -- there is
actually a comment that the stations most likely to be affected are TIFS-FM,
CHOM-FM and CHFI-FM. I gather your position then is that it doesn't make sense
from your comments earlier?
2382 MR. EVANOV: Mr. Linney will answer that.
2383 MR. LINNEY: Madam Commissioner, as the fall 1999 BBM
shows, 92 per cent of the Toronto population listens to radio at some point
during any given week.
2384 So no matter which application you licence on
whatever, you are going to have an impact on existing radio stations and the
question is to what degree. When my company put together the report on the
research and when we worked with Polara and with CKMW on what the parameters of
this project should be, one of the big question we wanted answered is "Who would
be affected if we licensed the gay radio station? As you can see from the
left-hand box -- if you have page 18 in front of you -- if we look at
what the gay and lesbian definitely listen to at the moment, it's actually
CHOM-FM and KISS-FM that would be affected the most.
2385 But again remember we are talking in terms of
audience and what I would like to do is relate that back to hours tuned. It is
true that an estimated 14 percent of our audience, for example, would come from
CHOM-FM. In average on a given week in the Toronto market, hours tuned are in
the vicinity of 21 and a half. We are projecting hours tuned from non-gay
listeners of about four.
2386 So while we may -- I always use the term
borrow -- while we may borrow these listeners, it would be for a very short
period of time and probably for a specific program. And that's where we came to
the conclusion that, yes, there would be an impact. We wanted to identify the
stations for you that would be impacted, but our view is based on hours tuned.
It wouldn't be a significant impact in terms of audience.
2387 MR. EVANOV: Just to continue with what Bob mentioned,
I think Carmela and I would like to give a little clarification on the music
issue that you raised before because we're not sure if it was understood or
misunderstood or perhaps we didn't explain it properly.
2389 MS LAURIGNANO: I just wanted a chance to clarify the
sound of the station, Madam Chair. I believe you were wondering what the peak
hours sounded like, and in between all our financial projections and scenarios,
I have been working with that little piece of paper and we do have a list that
we will give to you.
2390 I just wanted to sort of give you an idea of what it
might sound like. At 10 o'clock, your alarm clock would go off and you would
have heard a song which would be Tim Curse called, I Do The Rock, and now the
news would come on. It's a five-minute newscast structured in the normal way
and, of course, you would have your top stories of something that may have
happened like local, international and national -- and then I talked about
the more before, what's the more.
2391 So for example, if there were a story such as Bill
C-25 in the news, that would probably be our lead story. If there were a fire at
Church and Wellesley hopefully there were no casualties, but power was out or
that kind of thing there, that definitely would be included. So you are getting
a different type of perspective on the news or what the priority may
2392 You are also going to be hearing the local news, the
local sports, yes, the Leafs and the Rafters and the Canadiens played, however
the results of the hockey leagues last night, you know, which number of people
were all for that and so and so made it in the final.
2393 Then there will probably be a commercial break and
here again you would hear advertisers who haven't been on the air before and
needs having you be a venue moving which would be a gay-friendly business that
specialize in moving a household. You may hear (technical difficulty) in bad
theatre, bad times live theatre which is a full and very vibrant artistic centre
in the gay village that produces live theatre. That is going to be in and then
the music really because of the full service in the cross range we would also do
that. So between 7 a.m. and 8 a.m., you know, I mean I am going to do something.
I like to ask, you know, Mr. Maidment, who is in the younger days: "Well what
you like to hear between 7 and 8?"
2394 MR. MAIDMENT: Some of the things that I don't hear on
radio are Enigma, Cafe Delmare and even road music, that I'd be interested in
2395 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, and by the same token, we're
calling on people like Mrs. Hamilton who is interested in the issue, who is a
family member of a gay son and she stated in her own words before that her son's
family and coworkers and everybody else is interested in listening. She is
listening to see what her son might be listening to and I am not putting words
in her own mouth but, you know, what kind of music would you like to hear, Mrs.
2396 MS HAMILTON: Barbara Streisand is my
2397 MR. LINNEY: Madam Chairperson, what the point that
we're trying to make when you are asking what stations would we borrow listeners
from brings us again back to the issue of music and the format.
2398 The research that we did show that one of the things
that what the gay community in Toronto wants to hear is music diversity. There
were five genres of music that registered in what would for a normal radio
station be a market niche and the question is how do we serve them when we're
trying to a market as diverse as the two people sitting behind me.
2399 THE CHAIRPERSON: That gives me an excellent
opportunity to ask them questions. Ms Hamilton and Mr. Maidment, are you aware
that the Commission doesn't regularly format on an ongoing basis any more and
that like, applicants put a business plan together and a format together to
offer diversity and so on. And we try to attempt to what extent this is likely
to be, what they will do, so that in fact it will also diversity and will serve
the specific demographic that they consider to be under-serve, which means we
will be relying on you to keep CKMW to its promises. Are you satisfied with
2400 MR. MAIDMENT: That's one of the reasons that I think
the advisory committee has been set up so that CKMW Radio Limited can get input
from the community and, as we stated, from the community, we have members that
have influence and connections in different areas whether it be youth, whether
it be religion, whether it be social issues, whether it be police
2401 Myself, as I said, I've been out in the gay community
for 15 years. I'm very well connected and if I would bring something to that to
keep CKMW well versed on what the issues are, there is tons of media out there
from publications to get so much news and to keep the issues current, so that I
would look for a radio station like this, so that I would get news that was
relevant to me and my communities.
2402 MS HAMILTON: As for Keith, I have been pleased to be
asked to be on the advisory board because we have the expertise and the
experience. We know our gay children, we know the community. We have contacts in
the community but we also have a foot in the straight community and that's so
very important that you remember that that gay person has mother, father,
sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles. That's a large community when you add those
2403 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hamilton, I am not concerned
about whether you or Mr. Maidment can help Mr. Evanov have a meaningful service
to the identified community. I am asking you what your level of comfort is that,
that's exactly what will be done over time because you will not be the licensee,
you will not be on that company's board, and there is very little other than the
commitment made today that from a legal perspective will keep CKMW to its
commitment as to what the format will be on an ongoing basis.
2404 MR. MAIDMENT: If I could just say this and this
question has been posed to me before. Because of the diverse community that I
come from and I have worked with CKMW Radio Limited now for the last six months
on this application to get it to where it is today, and there is nothing that I
believe that would make me think that they would deviate from the format that
they have told you and proposed in the application and that's why I believe
wholeheartedly why I am here today.
2405 Because I am also involved in this and it's my name
and my place that's out there, as community liaison officer with the gay
community that people are going to see and I do have a good reputation with any
community for being in so many different organizations and associations
throughout the community for the last 15 years.
2406 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will keep Mr. Evanov's seat to
the fire. We're going to give you the last word, Mr. Evanov. I have no further
question. So go ahead.
2407 MR. EVANOV: I was simply going to add that we are
very committed to this project. This was an undertaking that we've put a great
deal of time into it. It's the applicants too and all the applications but this
went beyond the normal application. This involved the whole community, something
very different to bring forward to the Commission but our past track record
should show that we've never abandoned a format, even in the face of all the
odds, even in the face of losses.
2408 We created a niche format back in the early 90's at a
radio station outside the CMA-FM and at that time, we took a trip from zero to
700,000 listeners with a dance format and some CHR and that was in the days
before the hit factor was relaxed, and we did a phenomenal job there and we
follow that to a CIDC.
2409 So we've never abandoned anything we've done. We
stuck with it and now we have major competition in the form of multiple
ownerships and as Carmela has stated earlier, we have no intention to abandon
that. So if you give us this licence to serve the gay community, it will be
served and we will stick with it.
2410 THE CHAIRPERSON: What Mr. Maidment is telling us is
if you don't, for the first in your life, you will find Orangeville too close to
2411 MS LAURIGNANO: As we said, and we, and as Professor
Evanov already said, it would very nice to have a gay friendly place anywhere
and on the dial which is just great and you can rest assured that we would do
everything in our power to make the best use of the frequency and to serve the
community, because one of the things that we see flowing from this is the social
benefits that will flow as well.
2412 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Evanov,
ladies and gentlemen. We will take a ten minute, ten to fifteen minute break to
allow for a change in panel. Alors, nous reprendrons vers moins le
2413 M. CUSSONS: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Et
maintenant une demande présentée par La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto
Inc. en vue d'obtenir une licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une
entreprise de programmation et de radio FM communautaire de type A de langue
française à Toronto. La nouvelle station serait exploitée à la fréquence 93.5
MHz, canal 228 A avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 457 watts.
2414 Le requérant propose de diffuser une variété
d'émissions pour la communauté. Le conseil note également que la présente
demande est en concurrence avec d'autres demandes inscrites à cette audience
pour l'utilisation de la fréquence 93.5 MHz. Monsieur Martel.
2415 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bienvenue, Monsieur Martel et vos
PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION
2416 M. MARTEL: Merci. Il y a des petits changements dans
l'arrangement pour s'asseoir, alors je vais vous faire la présentation. Je
m'appelle Christian Martel. Je suis le président du conseil d'administration,
vice-président de l'ARC du Canada, qui est l'Alliance des radios communautaires
du Canada, et de MICRO qui est le mouvement des intervenants en communication
radio de l'Ontario. Dans la vie civile, je suis responsable des questions de
gestion d'intérêt au sein du Conseil de gestion du gouvernement de
2417 Comme vous le constaterez, notre conseil est bien
représentatif de la communauté plurielle de Toronto et reflète les différents
intérêts de la collectivité franco-ontarienne en général.
2418 Je vais vous présenter les membres de notre conseil
d'administration et les gens qui sont assis avec nous.
2419 À ma gauche, Emna Dhahak, vice-présidente du Conseil
et présidente de l'Association Maghrébine du Canada. Elle est spécialiste en
linguistique et porte-parole du ministère des Transports du gouvernement de
l'Ontario sur les questions touchant les politiques et les relations médiatiques
2420 À sa gauche, Mohamed Boudjenane est membre du comité
de programmation et membre du conseil. Il est également journaliste à l'émission
PANORAMA de TFO.
2421 À ma droite, Monsieur Maurice McGraw qui est
président de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.
2422 Derrière moi, sur l'autre table, Hélène Briand-Jacobs
qui est membre du comité des bénévoles et elle est infirmière de formation et
mère de famille à temps plein.
2423 À sa gauche, Denis Auger qui est membre du comité des
bénévoles et de programmation, est bibliothechnicien de formation et travaille
au service à la clientèle de Revenu Canada.
2424 À sa gauche, on a Aristote Kavungu qui est écrivain
2425 Et à sa gauche, on a monsieur André Duclos qui est
coordonnateur de notre campagne de financement à la Coopérative
2426 Et sur l'autre table à côté, nous avons monsieur
Marius Ouellette qui est coordonnateur de l'Association provinciale
2427 À sa droite, Serge Paquin qui est secrétaire général
de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.
2428 Et à sa droite, monsieur Nicol Simard qui est membre
du conseil et rédacteur en chef du journal Le Métropolitain. Il est également
membre du comité de programmation.
2429 Laissez-moi tout d'abord vous remercier et vous
féliciter pour la publication, vendredi dernier, de votre nouvelle politique sur
la radio communautaire. Nous avons bien l'intention de citer des exemples de
cette nouvelle politique et de l'utiliser pleinement si vous nous accordez cette
fréquence. Inutile de réitérer que depuis une dizaine d'années, la communauté
francophone de Toronto revendique une fréquence à Toronto.
2430 En 1988, nous avons fait des premières présentations
au CRTC pour demander la fréquence 92,3. Ensuite, en 1991, nous avons tenté une
diffusion temporaire d'une semaine et nous avons réussi à attirer autant la
participation que l'attention de la communauté en demandant la fréquence 99.1
qui était alors vacante suite à la faillite du réseau CKO. Depuis, nous avons
participé à toutes les étapes de demande de commentaires et d'appels de
2431 En 1996, lorsque nous avons appris que Radio Canada
avait demandé le déménagement de sa fréquence AM, nous avions décidé de ne pas
faire une demande de peur de perdre nos ressources. Toutefois, nous avons fait
une demande pour une fréquence à Ste-Catharines. Cependant, notre dossier nous a
été renvoyé, considéré incomplet.
2432 Depuis notre incorporation en 1991, plus d'une
trentaine de bénévoles ont contribué de leur temps pour mener ce projet à terme.
La Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto, son Conseil d'administration et ses
membres profitent de cette occasion pour souligner le travail de trois personnes
en particulier qui malheureusement ne verront pas l'avènement d'une radio
communautaire à Toronto car elles sont parties avant terme, après avoir consacré
temps et énergies à ce projet, sans en voir l'aboutissement.
2433 J'évoque avec regret le décès de Laure Rièse, Docteur
émérite de l'Université Victoria, Serge Jacob, qui fut président de la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto et président de l'ARC du Canada et Martha
Macdonald qui fut trésorière de la Coopérative de 1991 à 1992.
2434 Le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto
vise à valoriser et à maintenir l'identité francophone de l'Ontario tout en
freinant l'assimilation et en procurant un outil moderne de communication à
toute la communauté. Notre mandat vise à favoriser l'accessibilité des ondes, à
offrir des activités éducatives et de formation, à offrir une programmation
éducative locale et régionale de qualité sur des sujets qui touchent la
communauté francophone dans toute sa diversité et sa composition. Notre radio
contribuera aux activités de la communauté qui sont liées à la préservation de
la langue et de la culture française.
2435 De plus, notre radio communautaire contribuera à
promouvoir les avantages économiques et sociaux de la population francophone, en
plus de sensibiliser la population franco-torontoise au potentiel économique de
sa main-d'oeuvre bilingue et de ses ressources en français. Comme vous le dites
si bien dans votre nouvelle politique, notre radio offrira un apport important à
la diversité du système de radiodiffusion en offrant des émissions à la fois
différentes et complémentaires de celles des autres stations.
2436 Tant les Francophones que la langue française sont
menacés en Ontario. Bien que la province de l'Ontario soit le lieu de résidence
de plus de 542 000 personnes qui ont comme langue maternelle le français (5
per cent de la population ontarienne à peu près), la plus importante communauté
francophone canadienne vivant à l'extérieur du Québec. (Selon les statistiques
de Statistique Canada de 1996), soit la plus importante population de
francophones des Communautés francophones et Acadienne du Canada. Il a fallu
attendre en 1997 pour voir la création de 12 conseils scolaires francophones et
ainsi obtenir après toutes les autres provinces notre gestion complète des
écoles en français.
2437 Par conséquent, nous croyons fermement que le projet
de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto permettra de sauvegarder, d'enrichir
et de renforcer la structure culturelle et socio-économique de la francophonie
du Canada. Parce que le français, en tant que langue officielle, accuse un recul
en Ontario depuis les trois derniers recensements, comme l'indique le tableau 1,
notre projet revêt une importance capitale pour tous les franco-canadiens et les
2438 L'assimilation fait des ravages en Ontario et cela
aura des conséquences malheureusement irréversibles et irrémédiables si nous ne
rehaussons pas la visibilité et la qualité de notre langue ainsi que sa musique
dans notre univers médiatique.
2439 Le taux d'assimilation calculé par le transfert
linguistique tel qu'enregistré en 1996 par Statistique Canada s'élève à 63,3
pour cent pour la région de Toronto et à 41,1 pour cent pour l'Ontario en
entier, tel que le montre le tableau 2.
2440 Notre poids démographique diminue chaque année et la
disparition de la langue française nous guette tous les jours. C'est pour cette
raison que nous vous demandons de nous donner cet outil moderne de communication
qui diffusera tous les jours de la musique. Par une programmation culturelle qui
reflétera les besoins et la communauté dans toutes ses composantes, nous
redonnerons le goût aux jeunes de conserver leur langue.
2441 L'Ontario français représenté à Toronto a le
potentiel de rayonner sur la scène nationale et internationale. Nous avons pu le
constater en 1999 lors des manifestations d'envergure nationale et
internationale telles que l'Année de la Francophonie canadienne qui nous a
permis de célébrer avec les autres provinces la contribution des francophones
d'un océan à l'autre et la tenue à Moncton, au Nouveau-Brunswick, du Huitième
Sommet de la francophonie.
2442 Nous sommes convaincus que notre radio en utilisant
la nouvelle technologie numérique permettra à l'Ontario de devenir un tremplin
pour promouvoir le potentiel économique, social et culturel de la province sur
la scène nationale et internationale. Un de ces événements est sans doute la
candidature de Toronto pour accueillir les Jeux Olympiques d'été de 2008. Ce
genre d'activités donnerait l'occasion à Toronto et à tout l'Ontario de montrer
au monde entier ses biens et services et de retirer les avantages économiques de
ce ces activités, et cela dans les deux langues officielles.
2443 La Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto se propose de
favoriser l'épanouissement de la communauté francophone dans la plus grande
métropole du Canada en élaborant une programmation qui mettra en valeur les
créativités artistiques canadiennes. Notre projet suggère une programmation
canadienne beaucoup plus importante que tous les autres groupes à présenter
devant vous au cours de ces audiences. Notre programmation, tel que le spécifie
votre politique, mettra l'accent sur des informations et des analyses axées sur
les activités francophones de la métropole et de l'Ontario français, ce qui
intéressa la collectivité que nous voulons desservir dans la langue de la
2444 Elle se fera une fenêtre ouverte sur le reste du
monde francophone en donnant des informations du monde francophone aux quatre
coins de la planète avec un point de vue canadien en plus d'offrir une tribune
pour les différents points de vue de notre communauté multiculturelle et
2445 Si on devait nous comparer à la communauté de langue
officielle minoritaire de la ville de Montréal qui possède plus de dix services
radiophoniques dans sa deuxième langue, la communauté francophone de Toronto,
tant qu'à elle, n'en a aucune, sauf le service de base du radiodiffuseur public
de Radio Canada.
2446 Plusieurs membres de notre communauté nous avouent
qu'ils passent plusieurs années sans savoir qu'il y a 185 organismes désignés,
pourvoyeurs de services en français à Toronto, et sans découvrir qu'il y a une
gamme variée d'activités en français. La communauté francophone est une
communauté d'accueil pour les quelques 1 200 nouveaux arrivants qui
arrivent à Toronto et qui ne maîtrisent pas complètement l'anglais.
2447 Notre programmation sera axée sur la musique, car la
musique touche tout le monde, petits et grands, et devient un outil par
excellence qui nous permettra d'éduquer les auditeurs sur notre histoire, nos
organismes, les biens et services offerts en plus de faire du développement
économique communautaire. Aider la veuve et l'orphelin, les jeunes
entrepreneurs, faire connaître les artistes locaux, provinciaux, nationaux et
internationaux, dans le souci d'une programmation variée et d'une grande
diversité, tel que le demande votre nouvelle politique.
2448 Nous allons créer des emplois et augmenter les
chances de fonctionnement de toutes les entreprises canadiennes qui ont leur
siège social à Toronto en offrant des annonces sur les emplois bilingues
disponibles à Toronto tel que le mentionne l'article 3.d.(iii) de la Loi sur la
2449 Le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto
permettra de faire valoir le point de vue des femmes, des enfants, des personnes
âgées, de mettre en valeur les droits de la personne et le caractère multiracial
et multiculturel de Toronto, qui répondent à leurs besoins et qui servent leurs
intérêts tel que le spécifie la Loi.
2450 Dans notre étude de marché, nous avons spécifiquement
tenu compte de cette pluralité en exigeant un échantillonnage des trois groupes
bien distincts: les Franco-Canadiens de souche qui comptent pour 22 pour cent de
notre échantillonnage, les Franco-Torontoises et les Franco-Torontois d'origine
étrangère qui comptent pour 38 pour cent et les francophiles ou anglophones
bilingues qui comptent pour 40 pour cent. D'après les résultats, 48 pour cent
affirment que nous sommes mal desservis en médias en information francophone et
90,9 pour cent estiment que la création d'une radio communautaire correspond à
un besoin de la communauté tel que nous le montre le tableau 3. Notre auditoire
potentiel compte 76 500 parlants français et 339 000 personnes
bilingues pour un marché potentiel de 415 000 personnes.
2451 Une dichotomie bien flagrante: un francophone qui
vit, travaille et s'épanouit à Toronto est de loin mieux informé de ce qui se
passe au Québec ou en Outaouais que sur ce qui se passe dans sa propre
communauté. Une étude récente sur le contenu des médias anglophones écrits a
démontré que les médias anglophones ne parlent jamais de la minorité francophone
à l'extérieur du Québec, mais par contre, ils rapportent les prises de position
et les points de vue des dirigeants de la communauté anglophone minoritaire du
2452 En 1997, les forums de concertation de l'ACFO, qui
est l'Association canadienne française de l'Ontario, de la région de Toronto,
ont identifié la COMMUNICATION comme le principal problème à régler par les
organismes francophones du Grand Toronto. La radio communautaire proposée par la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto devra améliorer davantage la promotion de
toutes les activités de ces organismes et des entreprises qui s'adressent aux
francophones et la coordination de l'Offre de services aux francophones et aux
francophiles de la grande région de Toronto. Le manque de visibilité et de
ressources empêchent notre communauté de développer son plein potentiel
économique et culturel tel que le stipule la loi sur la
2453 Nous sommes convaincus que le partenariat et les
échanges de services que nous proposons de conclure avec TFO, le radiodiffuseur
éducatif, nous permettront d'atteindre une masse critique de ressources qui
débouchera sur une programmation canadienne originale et différente qui répond
aux besoins de toutes les composantes de la communauté. Cette entente nous
permettra de présenter des émissions tant culturelles qu'éducatives comme le
stipule l'article 3 de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.
2454 De plus, grâce au partenariat que nous avons conclu
avec le Réseau francophone d'Amérique de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du
Canada, nous ferons appel de façon notable aux producteurs canadiens qui
composent la grande famille franco-canadienne.
2455 Les nombreuses lettres d'appui envoyées par des
organismes francophones nationaux démontrent l'importance de notre projet dans
la lutte pour la conservation de la seconde langue officielle du Canada tant
pour le présent que pour l'avenir. Nous ne nommerons que le Conseil de la
Coopération de l'Ontario et ses 432 000 membres, l'Association des juristes
d'expression française de l'Ontario, l'Association canadienne d'éducation de
langue française, l'Association des enseignantes et enseignants
franco-ontariens, l'Association Franco-Ontarienne des Conseils Scolaires
Catholiques, l'Association des professionnels de la chanson et de la musique
franco-ontarienne, la Fédération culturelle canadienne-française et plusieurs
organismes privés communautaires sans compter de nombreux individus.
2456 La communauté francophone est un microscope de la
communauté anglophone dont plus de 52 pays y sont représentés, et il nous est
regrettable de constater qu'au niveau des médias écrits, nous n'avons ni
quotidien en français ni chaîne de télévision locale. Toronto n'est doté que de
deux hebdomadaires. Nous comptons heureusement parmi nos partenaires financiers
le journal Le Métropolitain et la Chaîne française de TVOntario, la télévision
éducative TFO. Cela démontre l'appui important de partenaires du milieu des
2457 Plusieurs organismes officiels de Toronto et de
l'Ontario ne comprennent pas que le droit de s'exprimer dans une autre langue
officielle du Canada n'est pas une faveur que l'on donne au même titre qu'une
subvention, selon leur bon vouloir. Comme l'a démontré la cause Beaulac à
Vancouver et la cause Monfort à Ottawa, les services en français sont des droits
protégés par la Charte canadienne des droits et ceci est enchâssé dans la
2458 Être un peuple fondateur n'a pas de signification si
personne ne peut en expliquer les répercussions à la population, et c'est ce que
propose de faire le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de
2459 Nous tenons à remercier l'Association canadienne
française de l'Ontario de Toronto pour son appui, le Mouvement des intervenants
en communication de l'Ontario au MICRO qui compte sur le projet de la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto pour lancer des projets de grande envergure
et de prendre la place que les Franco-Ontariens et les Franco-Torontois sont en
droit d'avoir, de même que l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada et le
Réseau francophone d'Amérique qui n'attend que Toronto pour rayonner partout au
2460 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci Monsieur Martel. Madame Noël,
s'il vous plaît.
2461 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bonne après-midi, Monsieur Martel.
Je ne reconnais pas tous les noms, là, mais bonne après-midi aussi à tous ceux
qui vous accompagnent. Monsieur Martel, j'ai une série de questions pour vous et
si je ne vous pose pas de question sur certains aspects de votre présentation,
c'est parce qu'on juge probablement qu'on a suffisamment d'information. Alors,
les questions que je vais vous poser sont là où on a des interrogations quant à
votre demande. Alors je vais regrouper mes questions sur un certain nombre de
rubriques, si vous voulez me donner trente secondes pour me retrouver dans mes
2462 On va d'abord parler de vos études de marché. On va
parler de l'aspect financier de votre demande. On va parler de l'utilisation de
la fréquence que vous avez demandée, soit 93,5 et de l'aire desserte que vous
visez. On va parler de votre programmation. On va parler de la formation et de
la participation des bénévoles dans l'opération de votre projet de station de
radio et on va parler de votre politique de programmation.
2463 Alors, au sujet des études de marché, vous nous avez
cité des études qui datent de 1991, si ma mémoire est exacte, et en réponse à
une lettre de lacune du 15 novembre portant sur ces études auprès des annonceurs
et des auditeurs, vous indiquez avoir effectué un sondage téléphonique auprès de
704 personnes en utilisant le même questionnaire qui avait été utilisé en 1991.
Ce sondage aurait été fait entre novembre 1996 et mars 1997.
2464 Pouvez-vous nous dire comment s'est déroulé le
sondage. Quelle méthode d'échantillonnage vous avez utilisée et de quelle
manière l'échantillon que vous avez choisi était-il représentatif de la réalité
et des besoins radiophoniques de la région de Toronto?
2465 M. MARTEL: Le sondage qu'on a effectué en 1996 a été
fait à partir de listes de personnes qui avaient servi lors du premier sondage.
Alors il y a une majorité de personnes qui étaient les mêmes personnes qui
avaient été interrogées en 1991, qui ont été interrogées en 1996 et 1997. Et ce
qui est intéressant de mentionner, de souligner, c'est qu'il y a plusieurs des
pourcentages qui ont été mentionnés dans l'étude de 1991 qui ont augmenté dans
les chiffres de 1996.
2466 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Pourquoi ce suivi? Vous avez
vérifié si l'intérêt des auditeurs avait changé depuis 1991. Moi, il ne semble
pas que le suivi ait été effectué auprès des annonceurs. Pouvez-vous rassurer le
conseil à l'effet que les entreprises anglophones et francophones sont encore
intéressées à annoncer sur les ondes de la station proposée?
2467 M. MARTEL: C'est vrai qu'on n'a pas vérifié au niveau
des annonceurs. Cependant, ce que je pourrais dire, c'est que les circonstances
maintenant sont encore meilleures au niveau des annonceurs puisque, grâce à
l'addition de 12 conseils scolaires francophones en Ontario, on a maintenant des
conseils scolaires qui ont des pouvoirs d'achat importants pour le placement
média qui cherchent à rejoindre les jeunes et les personnes pour les
inscriptions dans les écoles francophones et aussi plusieurs organismes nouveaux
qui se sont installés à Toronto, suite à...
2468 Il y a eu la création de d'autres organismes, comme
le Collège des Grands Lacs et des institutions francophones ont augmenté à
Toronto et, parce que Toronto est une région désignée bilingue selon la loi
provinciale, tous ces organismes doivent faire la promotion de leurs biens et
services en français. Présentement, il n'y a personne qui peut répondre à leurs
besoins vraiment au niveau de la publicité.
2469 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors parce que Radio Canada, en
fait la radio de Radio Canada ne fait pas de publicité?
2470 M. MARTEL: C'est ça. C'est que à moins qu'un de ces
groupes ne demande à Radio Canada de placer de la publicité, Radio Canada ne
vend pas de publicité, ne fait pas d'offre active auprès des
2471 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Dans votre réponse du 15 novembre,
vous nous indiquez que vous n'avez pas de ressources financières pour effectuer
une autre étude de marché auprès des annonceurs. Cependant, sur le site Internet
de l'Association des radios communautaires francophones, de l'ARC, il est
indiqué que vous êtes membre de cet organisme mais que celle-ci offre des
services de consultation dont, entre autres, l'analyse des études de marché.
Est-ce que vous avez consulté le service à ce propos-là, les services de l'ARC?
Et si oui, quelles sont les conclusions que vous en retirez?
2472 M. MARTEL: On est en communication, je dirais, pas
journalière, mais hebdomadaire, avec l'ARC du Canada qui nous ont aidés grâce à
leurs services de consultation à développer toute notre demande au CRTC. Au
niveau des études de marché, la raison pourquoi on mentionnait qu'on n'avait pas
les moyens de faire une étude semblable à celle qu'on a fait en 1991, c'est
qu'en 1991, en se basant sur les meilleures pratiques qui ont été suggérées par
l'ARC du Canada, on avait fait un appel d'offres et on avait essayé de choisir
la compagnie qui avait le plus de crédibilité auprès des annonceurs et auprès du
CRTC et cette compagnie qui avait été choisie en 1991, Impact Recherche, et la
composante de recherche de la compagnie Cossette Communication, qui est l'agence
de communication marketing la plus importante au Canada.
2473 Alors notre réponse était dans le sens que de refaire
une autre étude de 35 000 $ comme on avait fait en 1991, on trouvait
que l'étude qu'on a faite démontrait très bien qu'il y a un besoin qui n'est pas
répondu par personne d'autre dans ces études et qu'on n'avait pas besoin de
faire une deuxième étude pour le démontrer.
2474 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En fait, la situation au point de
vue de la publicité n'a pas changé, c'est ça que vous venez de dire. Il n'y a
personne d'autre qui en fait.
2475 M. MARTEL: Exactement.
2476 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant on va aller aux
chiffres. Alors, vous allez tirer vos revenus de différentes sources, notamment
de la publicité, des revenus de production et de co-production et des revenus
que j'appellerais des revenus divers pour les fins de cette partie-ci. Alors, si
on va aux revenus de publicité, vous avez ajouté des chiffres qui ressortaient
de l'étude de 1991 en ajoutant un facteur de croissance de 3 pour cent et vos
calculs cependant s'arrêtent à 1996. Alors on se demande pourquoi vous n'avez
pas rajouté des chiffres au moins jusqu'à 1998 parce 1996, c'est quand même
quatre ans, si on se place aujourd'hui, là. C'est il y a quatre ans. Comment
vous avez déterminé votre facteur de croissance de 3 pour cent? Sur quelle base
est-ce que vous avez élaboré votre hypothèse?
2477 M. MARTEL: Premièrement, je dois vous dire qu'au
niveau des chiffres de publicité, on a décidé d'être très conservateur et à
toutes les fois que notre étude mentionnait un minimum et un maximum, on s'est
toujours basé sur le minimum. Alors la raison pourquoi qu'on a choisi 3 pour
cent, c'est basé principalement sur le facteur de croissance annoncé de
Statistique Canada et une des raisons pourquoi on a arrêté en 1996,
principalement, c'est que selon Statistique Canada et les observateurs
économiques, là, c'est à ce moment-là vraiment qu'on est sorti de la récession
et où l'appareil économique canadien, dont Toronto est la métropole en grande
partie, a commencé à redémarrer et à générer des pourcentages de 3 à 4 pour cent
qui se sont maintenus.
2478 Alors la raison pourquoi on a arrêté en 1996, c'est
en grande partie parce qu'on était sorti de la récession et qu'on a essayé de
garder les chiffres au minimum, conservateurs.
2479 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Conservateurs?
2480 M. MARTEL: Oui.
2481 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'aimerais vous poser une question
aussi sur la proportion entre vos revenus, vous dites de publicité locale et de
publicité nationale. Vous avez dans vos hypothèses une estimation de vos revenus
de publicité nationale nette en vous basant sur des revenus, la proportion sur
vos revenus de publicité locale de 11 pour cent. Est-ce que vous avez comparé
vos données avec celles des stations de l'ARC et comment avez-vous déterminé un
niveau de 11 pour cent?
2482 M. MARTEL: Oui, on a comparé surtout avec des
stations en Ontario qui sont membres de l'ARC du Canada, entre autres, la
station CHOD à Cornwall, qui est dans un marché urbain comme nous et qui est
quand même un projet sur lequel on s'est beaucoup basé. Et la proportion de 11
pour cent est quelque chose qui, est un chiffre qui nous est conseillé et qui a
été vérifié par les gens de l'ARC du Canada.
2483 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et maintenant si on passe à vos
revenus de production et de co-production. Vos projections pour les revenus de
co-production et de production sont exactement les mêmes, c'est-à-dire que
chaque année, si vous 25 000 en production, vous avez 25 000 en
co-production puis ça monte tranquillement jusqu'à la fin de la période de
licence. Pouvez-vous nous dire pourquoi vous êtes arrivé avec des chiffres qui
sont finalement identiques aux deux niveaux?
2484 M. MARTEL: Bien, c'est un peu une coïncidence, là,
mais comme je vous indiquais tout à l'heure, on a essayé de toujours calculer
nos chiffres au minimum possible, c'est-à-dire d'être très conservateurs dans la
prévision à long terme sachant que toutes nos consoeurs qui ont passé par les
étapes de licences et qui sont entrées en ondes ont eu peut-être une
augmentation de ventes et de co-production les deux premières années et ensuite,
bon, parce que c'était moins nouveau, le niveau a baissé et le niveau s'est
plutôt stabilisé. Alors, c'est une des raisons pourquoi on a décidé de garder le
plancher toujours de façon conservatrice au même pour la production à long
2485 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: (Difficulté technique) un chiffre
pour vos revenus de production puis ensuite vous (difficulté technique) vos
revenus de co-production là-dessus. Parce que là, je trouvais que les
coïncidences étaient en l'an trois, 26 523, je trouvais que la coïncidence
était un peu forte.
2486 M. MARTEL: Bien, pour préciser, c'est que le fait
qu'on va pouvoir se payer seulement que huit employés permanents et que le reste
de la programmation va être fait par des bénévoles, on ne veut pas surcharger
nos employés permanents qui sont les experts dans la production et la
co-production. Et dans ce sens-là, c'est la raison pourquoi on est conservateurs
mais si les revenus augmentaient, on pourrait se permettre plus de personnel et,
à ce moment-là, on serait en mesure d'accepter plus de projets de
2487 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va passer à vos autres revenus,
Monsieur Martel. Non, avant ça, je vais vous poser une dernière question sur vos
revenus de co-production. Pouvez-vous me vérifier la source de vos revenus de
co-production? Est-ce qu'il s'agit d'émissions co-produites avec d'autres
stations et revendues par la suite ou est-ce que vous avez des négociations?
Avez-vous entamé des négociations avec des tiers avec lesquels vous envisagez de
conclure des ententes de co-production? Ils proviennent d'où vos revenus de
2488 M. MARTEL: Bien, principalement, les projets de
co-production vont nous venir du Réseau francophone d'Amérique et de l'ARC du
Canada. Déjà, l'ARC du Canada a développé une expertise importante dans la
co-production et si je nommais quelques exemples. Il y a deux séries qui
reviennent à chaque année; une qui est le concours pour la promotion des langues
officielles, qui est un concours où les gens doivent téléphoner lorsqu'ils
entendent une chronique qui est faite spécialement au niveau des langues
officielles et les gens peuvent participer à un concours et gagner un prix.
Alors toutes les stations de l'ARC participent à cette co-production. Également,
il y a une co-production qui est faite en collaboration avec l'ACDI, qui
présente des points de vue canadiens à des stations qui sont en Afrique ou dans
d'autres pays et vice versa.
2489 Il y a la possibilité de recevoir des émissions qui
sont produites par des stations consoeurs dans d'autres pays qu'on peut
diffuser, et le temps d'antenne et le développement des émissions est payé par
une subvention de l'ACDI en co-production.
2490 M. PAQUIN: Si je peux rajouter là-dessus comment les
co-productions, la production à l'ARC du Canada, actuellement, on a un budget
d'environ 400 000 $ avec différents partenaires gouvernementaux, les
agences pour produire des émissions souscrites qui sont rediffusées sur les
ondes. Donc les radios sont rémunérées pour la diffusion mais on fait appel
aussi aux radios pour la production parce qu'on déborde un peu au bureau chef à
2491 Donc, en moyenne, annuellement, chaque radio reçoit
environ 20 000 $ net des revenus de production et dans le cas des
stations qui font des co-productions, c'est-à-dire qui vont plus produire au
lieu de la pègre de réseau RFA à Ottawa. Bien comme dans le cas de Toronto, on
pourrait faire appel à Toronto, et, là, il y a des frais naturellement, là, des
revenus qui viennent pour justement produire les émissions. Donc, actuellement,
on peut déjà dire qu'en moyenne, sur les 18 stations, ça varie à peu près à
20 000 $ de revenus nets de production, qu'on appelle nous des
2492 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, vos autres sources de
revenus. Vous projetez des revenus de cotisation de membres de discothèque
mobile, radio-son, spectacles. Mais tous ces revenus-là, divers, ne totalisent
qu'environ 11 pour cent de vos revenus totaux, alors que dans plusieurs stations
communautaires, on va chercher des revenus de cette nature-là qui roulent entre
45, 46 pour cent. Pourquoi est-ce que votre station est différente des autres
2493 M. MARTEL: Bien, je pense que c'est toujours dans la
même thématique, on est très conservateur dans nos estimées. Au niveau des
disques et cassettes et aussi des spectacles, comme c'est quelque chose qui
n'existe pas beaucoup à Toronto, quelqu'un qui veut s'acheter des disques à
Toronto, en français, il y a seulement un point de vente et c'est vraiment notre
intention de développer ce marché-là. Mais comme on n'a pas fait d'étude de
marché spécifique sur la demande et le fait aussi que, de plus en plus, on peut
se procurer des choses via l'Internet et par d'autres moyens de mise en marché,
alors on a été...
2494 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Conservateur.
2495 M. MARTEL: Conservateur.
2496 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous place les mots dans la
bouche. Si vos projections de revenus de publicité locale n'étaient pas
atteintes, pensez-vous que vous avez d'autres moyens pour aller chercher des
fonds dont vous avez besoin pour opérer?
2497 M. MARTEL: Principalement, dans notre plan B pour
l'atteinte de publicité, on a toute une stratégie qui a été développée avec
notre association provinciale. Alors on a le coordonnateur de ce projet-là,
Monsieur Marius Ouellette, qui pourrait vous expliquer notre objectif provincial
qui est d'aller chercher 25 000 $ pour chacune des radios avec ce
projet provincial, mais je vais laisser Marius vous l'expliquer.
2498 M. OUELLETTE: Si vous permettez Madame. C'est que
MICRO, d'abord, très brièvement, pour savoir qui c'est. C'est l'association
d'organismes qui rassemble sept membres, sept radios membres, dont quatre sont
en ondes et trois au niveau d'implantation. Alors le financement des radios,
tout le monde, on le sait, vous l'avez très bien dit tantôt, c'est qu'il y a
deux volets à ça pour nos radios communautaires. Il y a la levée de fonds et la
vente de publicité. Alors pour répondre à la préoccupation actuelle, c'est qu'il
est intéressant de noter à quel point MICRO se dote actuellement, c'est-à-dire
les radios membres se dotent d'un moyen à travers MICRO pour être en mesure
vraiment de chercher d'autres moyens de financement.
2499 Et puis permettez-moi de juste ajouter ici quand même
en plus des nouvelles approches d'activités de levées de fonds, c'est qu'il y a
aussi l'établissement de partenariats et à des niveaux tels, par exemple, le
gouvernement provincial. C'est que RFA, le Réseau francophone d'Amérique
décroche des fonds, comme on a dit tantôt, mais également aussi des ventes de
publicité qui retournent dans les radios membres qui rendent des services. Et
actuellement, et c'est grâce à l'Office de la francophonie, c'est que nous nous
présentons la semaine prochaine devant des acheteurs de publicité pour les
2500 Et puis l'objectif, comme vient de le dire Monsieur
Martel, c'est que pour chaque radio membre, on vise à aller chercher
25 000 $ par année de revenus supplémentaires avec ces partenariats.
Et ce ne sont pas des subventions, ce sont des services que nous offrons à ces
différents ministères et organismes gouvernementaux. Et permettez-moi d'ajouter,
c'est qu'on s'aperçoit que dans nos communautés il y a une saturation de levées
2501 La grande communauté de Toronto, bien, elle doit
probablement souffrir un peu de la même chose que les plus petites communautés
où sont implantées nos radios. Alors, c'est qu'à ce moment-là, on établit aussi
des partenariats avec des organismes de la communauté au lieu de multiplier les
levées de fonds. Alors de la même manière on l'a fait dans nos communautés, de
la même manière on veut le faire avec les services gouvernementaux et dans un
premier temps, on vise 25 000 $ par année pour chacune de nos radios.
Et dans un deuxième temps, et par après, on croit que ce chiffre va augmenter
2502 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et Monsieur Martel, pour enchaîner
là-dessus, ce 25 000 $ ne serait pas dans vos projections de revenus à
2503 M. MARTEL: Non.
2504 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va parler de vos dépenses. Dans
votre plan d'affaires, vous allouez environ 6 pour cent de vos revenus aux
dépenses de programmation. Est-ce que ce niveau de dépenses-là vous apparaît, je
comprends que vous allez travailler avec des bénévoles, mais ça ne vous apparaît
pas un peu mince comme budget comparativement à la moyenne des stations
communautaires? Vu que, d'après ce que vous nous dites, vos revenus de publicité
sont élevés, la publicité, votre proportion, en tout cas, de publicité locale
est élevée, comment expliquez-vous que vous dépensiez si peu au niveau, au
chapitre de la programmation?
2505 M. MARTEL: On espère, au niveau de la programmation,
utiliser beaucoup la nouvelle technologie numérique et, dans ce sens-là, on n'a
pas beaucoup d'expérience pour juger des dépenses d'exploitation au même titre
qu'une station traditionnelle qui fonctionne avec des rubans. Le fait qu'avec la
technologie numérique, on a plus de ruban vraiment à manipuler, à acheter, à
recycler des fois, c'est un des facteurs.
2506 Comme le Réseau francophone d'Amérique va nous
procurer la possibilité de se rallier au réseau si jamais un de nos bénévoles ne
se présente pas ou que notre programmation régulière ne peut pas être diffusée.
De toute façon, on prévoit faire 88 heures de programmation locale pour la
première année, et les autres 32 ou 34 heures seraient comblées par le Réseau
francophone d'Amérique. Je pense que Maurice McGraw, ici, voudrait peut-être
rajouter quelque chose là-dessus.
2507 M. McGRAW: Si vous permettez, Madame la Conseillère.
Au niveau du service du Réseau francophone d'Amérique, un service de l'ARC du
Canada, le réseau entend diffuser 24 heures sur 24 dans les prochains mois.
Donc, la possibilité, il y a diverses possibilités qui s'offrent pour Toronto,
ici, dont la possibilité d'enregistrements d'émissions spécialisées ou d'autres
populaires, etc., possibilité de faire une banque aussi d'émissions et lorsqu'un
problème surviendrait au niveau de la programmation locale ou un manque au
niveau de la programmation locale, pourra venir combler cette
2508 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Encore au chapitre des dépenses,
cette fois-là, on va aller aux dépenses d'administration. Celle-là nous semble
relativement beaucoup plus élevée que ce à quoi on est habitué. 63,9 pour cent
de votre budget de l'année trois, c'est assez haut. Et une grande partie de ces
dépenses-là seront des dépenses de salaires. Pouvez-vous nous expliquer pourquoi
il y a une si large part de votre budget qui est consacrée aux salaires et
avantages sociaux? Et en quoi est-ce que ça consiste? Est-ce qu'il y a des
bonis? Est-ce qu'il y a... C'est formé de quoi ces salaires-là?
2509 M. MARTEL: Je pense que la principale raison c'est
qu'à la troisième année le taux de salaires augmente beaucoup, c'est
principalement que pour les deux premières années, on va faire appel à des
projets d'emploi et dans ce sens-là, on n'aura pas à assumer complètement les
salaires. Et pour revenir à votre question de tout à l'heure sur la
programmation, je pense que c'est une des raisons également qui fait que le 11
pour cent normal de coûts de la programmation inclut les salaires alors que pour
nos deux premières années, parce que les salaires vont être presque entièrement
comblés par des projets d'emploi pour la création de nouveaux emplois, les coûts
d'administration et les coûts de salaires à l'intérieur de la programmation
n'ont pas été calculés pour les deux premières années. Alors c'est pour ça que
la troisième année on va vivre selon nos moyens et si on a beaucoup de succès et
qu'on est capable d'avoir plus de personnel, on va se payer plus de personnel et
on va également faire plus de services à la communauté et plus de
2510 Mais c'est la raison principale pourquoi à partir de
la troisième année, la charge des salaires va être complètement absorbée par nos
2511 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça, c'est des subventions de
Ressources humaines Canada, de 20 000 $ puis de 25 000 $,
dans la première et dans la deuxième année?
2512 M. MARTEL: Exactement.
2513 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, vous nous avez indiqué
que si vous faisiez des profits ou enfin des excédents de recettes sur les
déboursés... Vous avez pas le droit de faire de profit.
2514 M. MARTEL: On n'a jamais dit qu'on n'a pas le droit
de faire de profit. On n'a pas le droit...
2515 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous n'avez pas le droit d'appeler
ça des profits.
2516 M. MARTEL: Bien, on n'a pas le droit de...
2517 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous êtes sans but
2518 M. MARTEL: On n'a pas le droit de les utiliser comme
nos amis du secteur privé. On doit les réinvestir dans notre entreprise et dans
2519 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je peux vous poser comme question:
Qu'est-ce que vous allez faire si vous avez des surplus d'opération?
2520 M. MARTEL: On espère qu'on en aura et qu'on va
pouvoir faire plus de services à la communauté, plus de programmation locale. On
espère de pouvoir aussi donner des services aux communautés qui vont être un peu
en bordure de notre rayon de diffusion, c'est-à-dire la grande banlieue, là,
lorsqu'on parle de Markham et Richmond Hill et Oshawa et Oakville, qui nous ont
toujours supportés dans notre projet mais avec le rayon de diffusion, a limité
de cette fréquence-là. On espère que si on fait des profits, on va pouvoir quand
même leur donner des services et augmenter l'offre dans la
2521 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça m'amène à un autre aspect des
questions que j'ai à vous poser, soit l'utilisation de la fréquence 93,5, l'aire
de desserte que vous envisagez. D'abord, je vais vous poser la question que vous
entendue poser en anglais à ceux qui sont déjà passés avant vous mais je vais
vous la poser en français. En quoi votre proposition constitue-t-elle la
meilleure utilisation possible de la fréquence 93,5 MHz?
2522 M. MARTEL: Bien, on considère que le fait qu'il
n'existe pas de station francophone à Toronto et que la Loi de la radiodiffusion
est très claire au niveau de l'équité des deux langues officielles, au niveau du
service radiophonique et de même que la mention qui est faite dans la nouvelle
loi sur la radio communautaire, on considère que le fait qu'on propose 75 pour
cent de programmation en français et le fait qu'on s'attende d'excéder la
programmation locale canadienne de tous les autres projets qui vous sont
présentés lors de ces audiences publiques vraiment parle en faveur de notre
projet et également le fait que l'assimilation comme on l'a mentionné dans notre
présentation, fait tellement de ravages importants dans notre communauté que si
on ne peut pas avoir un moyen de communication moderne pour essayer d'améliorer
l'offre de français à Toronto, je pense que notre communauté va disparaître dans
2523 M. McGRAW: Je me permettrais, Madame la Conseillère,
de complémenter la réponse de Christian à ce niveau-là. On a plusieurs exemples
dans nos radios communautaires au niveau du freinage de l'assimilation. Nos
radios ont contribué énormément à ce freinage-là. Si on regarde la situation
dans d'autres populations où la communauté française devait écouter la radio
anglaise. Lorsque nos radios se sont développées, sont venues, sont entrées dans
ces communautés-là, les Francophones se sont mis à écouter les radios
communautaires et permettent de décrocher des cotes d'écoute très importantes de
Francophones. Donc c'est de freiner cette assimilation-là qui se passe dans la
2524 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Si le conseil décide d'octroyer la
fréquence 93,5 MHz à une autre requérante ou même de la laisser vacante pour une
raison quelconque, est-ce que vous envisageriez la possibilité d'implanter votre
projet sur la bande AM? Et, en fait, considérez-vous que la bande AM pourrait
être une solution pour votre radio?
2525 M. MARTEL: En 1994, on a assisté à une réunion avec
des gens d'Industrie Canada, des gens de Patrimoine canadien et des gens de
l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada parce que le projet de Toronto,
c'est principalement l'aspect technique qui nous a retardés depuis notre
incorporation en 1991. C'est vraiment l'aspect technique du nombre, du petit
nombre de fréquence FM à Toronto, et on avait posé la question aux gens de
Patrimoine canadien et d'Industrie Canada qui sont les principaux bailleurs de
fonds pour le programme d'immobilisation des radios communautaires en milieu
minoritaire, et on considérait que, c'est une option qu'on avait regardé et à
cause du coût des terrains dans la région de Toronto, un groupe communautaire,
avec des ressources limitées comme nous, ne peut pas se payer pour mettre un
2526 L'autre raison qui fait que la bande AM n'a jamais
été dans notre scénario technique revient du fait que, en tout cas, c'est notre
compréhension, que la Loi sur la radiodiffusion passe de la radio communautaire
dans la section de fréquence modulée et non dans la section de fréquence AM
d'amplitude. Alors, c'est pour cette raison-là qu'on n'a jamais, c'est les deux
principales raisons pourquoi le côté AM n'a jamais été dans nos scénarios
2527 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, pour vous, il n'y a pas
d'autre solution que de passer sur 93,5 ou s'il y a d'autres fréquences,
d'autres projets que vous pourriez envisager?
2528 M. MARTEL: La seule autre option qu'on surveille
depuis 1993-1994, c'est la venue du numérique parce qu'on considère que c'est
l'avenir, que le numérique va augmenter un peu le nombre d'espaces à Toronto et
dans le sud de l'Ontario selon le projet, le plan de lotissement qui est
présenté par Industrie Canada. Le fait que toutes les stations déjà détentrices
d'une licence ont déjà un espace réservé, mais c'est peut-être pas tout le monde
qui est intéressé, en tout cas, à y aller, quoique on sait que la majorité des
stations commerciales ont déjà fait demande de licence intérimaire
2529 Le seul problème qui existe au niveau de cette
option-là, c'est que ça va venir encore dans cinq ou dix ans et ça fait déjà dix
ans qu'on travaille. Je ne sais pas quel sera l'état de notre communauté si on
est obligé d'attendre un autre dix ans.
2530 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bon. Monsieur Martel, je vais vous
amener à votre aire de desserte et vous avez mentionné dans votre présentation
orale, tout à l'heure, qu'en -- en fait, je ne sais pas si c'est aussi en
1996, parce que dans le paragraphe vous dites que Radio Canada avait demandé le
déménagement de sa fréquence en 1996. Et que toutefois nous avons fait notre
demande pour une fréquence à St-Catharines mais notre dossier a été rejeté. En
fait, il vous a été retourné parce qu'incomplet. Quand vous parlez ici dans
votre, dans le document qui est à l'appui de votre demande à la page titre sous
la rubrique B, puis je vais lire ce que vous dites
"Le marché global que nous cherchons à rejoindre s'étend de Oakville à
l'ouest jusqu'à Oshawa dans l'est et Newmarket dans le nord. Cependant, parce
qu'il existe une fréquence communautaire et francophone dans la région de
St-Catharines, notre stratégie est de le demander pour augmenter nos chances
d'avoir la fréquence. De cette manière, le marché rejoint comprendrait toute la
région de Welland, Hamilton, Mississauga et une partie du grand Toronto. Une
fois la licence acquise, nous pourrions déménager la fréquence sur la tour du CN
pour ainsi couvrir toute la grande région du grand Toronto et du Niagara,
St-Catharines. Dans cet extrait de votre demande, vous dites que vous cherchez à
rejoindre un marché s'étendant de Oakville à l'ouest jusqu'à Oshawa à l'est et
Newmarket au nord. Veuillez nous expliquer, j'aimerais ça que vous nous
expliquez ce que veulent dire ces propos dans votre demande en sachant que les
paramètres techniques de votre demande actuelle ne permettent pas de desservir
une région aussi vaste?" (Tel que
2531 M. MARTEL: Alors, je pense que je dois avouer que le
texte de notre plan d'affaires n'a pas suivi l'évolution du dossier technique.
En 1996, c'est vrai que c'était l'option qu'on a privilégiée et on privilégiait
cette région-là parce qu'on avait entendu parlé de l'expérience de co-location
de la station CIRV qui est, qui était une petite station portugaise qui ne
diffusait qu'avec 250 watts et ils ont fait une expérience en plaçant leur
antenne sur le même site que leur station qui était juste à côté, qui est la
station de l'Université de Toronto, CUT, et après cette expérience technique-là,
Industrie Canada leur a donné la permission de déménager leur antenne sur le
toit de la Banque de Montréal et, par ce fait même, d'augmenter leur aire de
desserte pour l'équivalent d'une station d'à peu près 10 000 watts ou
quelque chose comme ça.
2532 Nous avons tenté des négociations avec la station qui
était la plus près de la fréquence de St-Catharines qui était la station CJRT,
la station éducative qui est située dans les locaux de l'Université Ryerson et
après plus d'un an d'efforts d'essayer de les convaincre de nous permettre de
faire cette expérience technique, d'essayer la station, la fréquence de
St-Catharines sur un site adjacent à leur antenne, ils nous ont donné une fin de
non recevoir et ils ne voulaient absolument pas même essayer à cause des
possibilités de brouillage à leur signal.
2533 Et, suite aux audiences publiques de 1997, du
printemps 1997, lorsque Radio Canada était en compétition pour la 99,1, on a été
surpris comme tout le monde de la déclaration de Monsieur Pelletier de dire que
la fréquence 93,5 allait être libérée de Peterborough et pourrait être donnée à
des groupes qui contestaient la demande de la société. Et parce qu'on est un
groupe communautaire qui n'est pas aussi au courant que l'industrie, notre
dossier technique du moment où on l'a déposé au mois de septembre où on
envisageait d'utiliser la fréquence sur le toit de l'édifice de TVOntario a
changé pour le scénario semblable à tous les autres groupes qui sont en
2534 Lorsqu'on a su que Radio Canada avait déjà fait les
tests techniques et avait prévu dans leur installation sur le toit de la Banque
de Montréal d'inclure des espaces pour un émetteur pour la 93,5 et une antenne à
même l'antenne de 99,1. Alors, c'est seulement quand on a découvert cette
existence d'une possibilité que notre dossier technique a changé entre le temps
où on a déposé et aujourd'hui.
2535 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: (Difficulté technique) la demande
ou votre demande où on parlait d'une antenne sur le toit de TV, sur le toit de
l'édifice de TVOntario, ç'a été modifié?
2536 M. MARTEL: Oui. Ç'a été modifié et...
2537 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous vous en iriez sur le toit de
la Banque de Montréal?
2538 M. MARTEL: Exactement. Comme les autres. Et c'est
pour cette raison que le rayon de diffusion, on a, j'ai reçu le document
technique, là, il y a seulement que quelques semaines. Alors les paramètres du
rayon de diffusion ne dépassent pas vraiment la grande région métropolitaine de
Toronto et comprend une partie de Mississauga et arrête à la limite de Richmond
Hill et de Scarborough dans l'est.
2539 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors tout ce dont on a parlé, la
possibilité de déménager sur la tour du CN, c'est caduc?
2540 M. MARTEL: C'est un vieux scénario.
2541 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est un vieux scénario. Bon,
alors, on vous posera d'autre question là-dessus. J'en avais toute une série
mais vous m'avez pris de court. Maintenant, on va passer à quelque chose de
plus, qui a un peu plus de viande, qui est un peu moins sec. On va passer à
votre programmation. On va commencer par la répartition des heures. Vous nous
expliquez dans votre demande que vous comptez utiliser 126 heures par semaine
entre 6 heures et minuit, et dont 86 heures seraient produites localement par la
2542 Il reste donc une quarantaine d'heures. Est-ce que
ces heures-là vont provenir, je sais que vous ferez une entente avec Radio
centre international. Est-ce que ces heures-là vont venir de RFI ou si il va en
venir aussi de MICRO et du Réseau francophone d'Amérique? Pouvez-vous nous dire
un petit peu d'où vont provenir vos heures de diffusion?
2543 M. MARTEL: Principalement, les heures entre le nombre
d'heures de programmation qu'on va produire et le nombre maximum alloué selon la
réglementation qui est 126 heures, ces heures-là vont provenir du Réseau
francophone d'Amérique de l'ARC du Canada et c'est le réseau et puis Maurice ou
Serge peuvent renchérir, c'est le réseau qui a l'entente avec Radio France
2544 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ah, c'est le, c'est le, O.K. C'est
l'ARC qui a une entente avec RFI et non pas vous.
2545 M. McGRAW: Au niveau de la programmation de RFA, le
Réseau francophone d'Amérique... Ne pas portez confusion avec RFI. C'est 5 pour
cent aux environs de notre programmation totale dont on va diffuser sur notre
réseau. Donc la Coopérative Toronto pourront se brancher à ces temps-là pour
faire du direct ou pour faire de l'enregistrement comme je le mentionnais
2546 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors 5 pour cent du 40 pour cent
qui est pas déjà occupé par la programmation locale?
2547 M. McGRAW: Et bien sûr, il y a d'autres éléments qui
proviennent de d'autres réseaux dont la Société Radio Canada pour ce qui est des
bulletins Infoplus qui représente une dizaine de bulletins par jour, dont la
Coop de Toronto pourra bénéficier.
2548 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors Radio-Canada... Une dizaine
de bulletins, ça représente quoi en pourcentage sur votre...
2549 M. McGRAW: Ce sont des bulletins de 120 secondes,
donc ce sont une dizaine de bulletins par jour qui sont diffusés et la Coop peut
se brancher à cet amplifi-là. D'autres bulletins sont aussi diffusés par les
studios d'Ottawa, soit les bulletins maison du Réseau francophone d'Amérique,
des bulletins majeurs.
2550 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors on s'attend, là, on parle de
combien en pourcentage des heures de programmation?
2551 M. PAQUIN: Ce qu'il faut comprendre, c'est que le
Réseau francophone d'Amérique va diffuser 24 heures par jour et que toutes les
stations affiliées peuvent un peu à la carte choisir des éléments de
programmation. Et un élément important qui est la production de bulletins de
nouvelles qui représente en terme de minutes à peu près cinq minutes à l'heure,
il y aurait ces temps de programmation qui soient créés par les studios, par les
employés du studio de RFA. Lorsque Maurice McGraw faisait allusion tantôt au 5
pour cent, c'est que la programmation 24 heures par jour, RFI, on va rediffuser
5 pour cent de RFI sur les 24 heures.
2552 Donc ce qui représente à peu près six ou sept heures
d'émissions de RFI, on aura l'équivalent. On va aller chercher cinq, six heures
aussi par semaine de Radio Canada et on prévoit à moyen terme d'aller chercher
60 heures par semaine qui seront issues des communautés. Donc Radio Toronto
pourrait acheminer deux, trois heures d'émissions par semaine à la tête de
réseau qui sera recapté selon la volonté des autres membres.
2553 Comme on le sait, il y en a qui vont prendre plus de
programmation, les petites stations; d'autres qui vont prendre plutôt les
services, les chroniques, les projets de production. Donc c'est une
programmation qui est variée qui va respecter également la politique en vigueur
relative à la radio communautaire.
2554 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bon, maintenant, si on va dans la
création orale. Dans votre demande, vous nous précisez que vous diffuserez 15
pour cent de création orale dont 4 pour cent sera consacré aux nouvelles et de
ce 4 pour cent consacré aux nouvelles, 20 pour cent sera consacré aux nouvelles
locales, 20 pour cent aux nouvelles régionales et 60 pour cent aux nouvelles
internationales. Est-ce que vous pouvez nous préciser d'où viendront les
nouvelles internationales, le 60 pour cent de nouvelles qui sont dites
internationales dans votre demande?
2555 Mme EMNA DHAHA: Nous comptons bien entendu
contracter des alliances avec les canaux usuels dont nous disposons à Toronto,
donc comme (Difficulté technique), Media Scan, donc toutes ces agences qui, pour
nous, sont générales et de l'information sur demande.
2556 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais vous n'achèterez pas des
émissions toutes faites. Vous allez prendre, vous allez vous abonner au service
de nouvelles et vous allez monter vos propres nouvelles
2557 Mme EMNA DHAHA: C'est ça. Il y a aura des
journalistes qui composeront et des lecteurs de nouvelles. Donc, c'est là où on
fait la distinction.
2558 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Alors vous n'achetez pas
d'émission. C'est ça que je veux savoir si vous achetez ces émissions-là par
exemple un service de nouvelles internationales qui fait la lecture ou en fait
repasser même le ruban. Alors le 4 pour cent de nouvelles, si je comprends bien
ce que vous me dites, le 4 pour cent de nouvelles va être entièrement produit
par la station. Il n'y aura pas de bulletins de nouvelles achetés de
2559 M. MARTEL: Sauf les bulletins du Réseau francophone
d'Amérique qui a une collaboration comme on mentionnait tout à l'heure avec
Radio Canada et aussi le réseau TVA et il y a un troisième aussi...
2560 M. PAQUIN: On a aussi des ententes avec MTR, qu'on va
redistribuer des services MTR à tous les membres via Internet, du moins une
partie. On a des ententes avec Canada News Wire. On a des ententes avec RFI au
niveau de leurs nouvelles, avec TVA, NCN, on a une source importante là, Radio
Canada qui produit déjà une dizaine de bulletins pour nous. Donc les sources
avec Internet aussi dont l'accès est presque illimité. Des sources au niveau de,
comme on dit, concocter là des bulletins internationaux formule type et Radio
Toronto pourrait récupérer les services que l'ARC offre au même titre que les
2561 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça c'est dans les 40 heures qui ne
sont pas produites localement par votre radio. Bon, maintenant on va passer au
reflet de la communauté. Votre projet radiophonique a comme objectif de
rejoindre plusieurs communautés culturelles de la francophonie. Quelles mesures
allez-vous mettre en place pour connaître les besoins et les intérêts de ces
communautés en ce qui concerne la programmation? Est-ce que vous avez un comité
ou comment est-ce que vous fonctionnez pour déterminer quels sont ces besoins-là
des diverses communautés francophones du grand Toronto?
2562 M. BOUDJENANE: La radio communautaire ou du moins les
membres de la radio communautaire sont un peu représentatifs de la diversité de
cette communauté à Toronto. La radio a effectué plusieurs démarches auprès des
différentes communautés qui sont les communautés afro-canadiennes d'origine
francophone, d'Afrique du Nord du Maghreb, les communautés asiatiques, les
communautés françaises d'Europe, etc. Et tous ces groupes, toute cette diversité
de la communauté a voulu contribuer à cette radio et on a voulu dans la
programmation justement, refléter toutes ces composantes.
2563 Alors dans la programmation qu'on offre, la
programmation provisoire, on a tous ces groupes qui vont avoir au moins une
heure par semaine pour parler de leur communauté, de leur culture, passer leur
musique et éventuellement faire la promotion de leurs intérêts particuliers.
Donc, dans ce sens-là, la radio va donner la place à tout le monde et si je peux
ajouter cette communauté qui est diversifiée est souvent doublement discriminée.
Elle est discriminée par rapport à ses origines ethniques, culturelles et
linguistiques. Ces gens ne se retrouvent pas au niveau linguistique dans les
autres radios qui desservent Toronto parce que c'est des gens qui s'expriment
d'abord en français.
2564 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, on va passer à l'aspect
formation et participation des bénévoles, Monsieur Martel, si vous voulez bien.
Alors 86 heures par semaine de programmation, c'est pas un projet modeste. Il
faut quand même les produire ces 86 heures-là et ça va vous prendre et des
employés rémunérés et des bénévoles. Pouvez-vous nous rassurer à l'effet que
vous avez une bonne compréhension de la quantité et de la qualité des ressources
que ça va vous prendre? Comment pensez-vous que vous allez pouvoir gérer
l'exploitation d'une station avec une armée de bénévoles?
2565 Alors, à ce niveau-là, je voudrais savoir combien
vous allez avoir d'employés rémunérés qui travailleront à la station, leurs
tâches et une fois que vous serez en onde après la période d'implantation,
combien y en aura-t-il? Comment allez-vous recruter vos bénévoles? Combien de
bénévoles comptez-vous recruter et quelle formation allez-vous donner à ces
2566 M. MARTEL: Alors, on a, parce que ça fait déjà 10 ans
qu'on essaie de mettre sur pied cette radio communautaire, on a déjà un bassin
assez important de bénévoles qui, au cours des années, ont suivi des sessions de
formation qu'on a offertes. Pour ne nommer que la semaine complète de
programmation qu'on a faite lors de la semaine francophone en 1991, à cette
semaine de programmation-là, on a géré une grille de 7 heures le matin à 10
heures le soir pendant sept jours complets avec une multitude de bénévoles. On a
compté qu'il y avait entre 250 et 300 bénévoles qui étaient venus faire de la
programmation en 1991. Depuis 1991, on a offert quatre ateliers de formation à
des producteurs bénévoles qui a rejoint au total environ, c'était des sessions
d'environ 20 à 25 personnes.
2567 Alors on a un autre bassin de 100 personnes qui ont
suivi nos ateliers depuis 1994, 1995, 1996, qui sont déjà pour la plupart
impliqués dans la production d'émissions dans des radios de campus.
Présentement, il y a trois émissions, trois ou quatre émissions en français et
ce sont des gens qui ont, en grande majorité, suivi nos formations qui gèrent
des émissions hebdomadaires dans des radios de campus présentement.
2568 On est conscients qu'avec 88 heures de programmation,
on s'attend d'avoir un peu plus que huit personnes payées à temps plein. De ces
huit personnes-là, on aura deux vendeurs, un vendeur à temps plein, un vendeur à
temps partiel. On aura quatre animateurs et on aura un responsable des bénévoles
et un directeur de la station et une personne secrétaire-comptable.
2569 Alors le responsable des bénévoles va être
responsable des sessions de formation qui vont être tenues et selon le document
qu'on a déposé qui s'appelle Manuel d'information pour les bénévoles, chaque
bénévole sera obligé de passer dans un atelier d'au moins 10 heures et de signer
une entente de responsabilité pour suivre la réglementation du CRTC et de
s'assurer que les projets d'émission qu'ils vont nous soumettre vont être tenus
et les contenus autant musicaux que les contenus vocaux vont également être
2570 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: La dernière question parce qu'on
avait un petit problème. Et je pense que vous avez deux politiques de
programmation qui ont été déposées, si je ne m'abuse. Il y en a une qui a été
déposée avec votre demande originale dans laquelle, attendez un petit peu que je
me retrouve dans ma paperasse, dans laquelle vous nous disiez, au niveau de la
réglementation de contenu en onde:
"Les participants prennent l'entière responsabilité des propos émis durant
leur émission. Ça, c'était la politique qui a été déposée avec votre demande. Et
ma question était à savoir, est-ce que vous comprenez que l'article 3(1) r) à
votre décision stipule que c'est le titulaire des licences d'exploitation
d'entreprise de radiodiffusion qui assume la responsabilité de l'émission." (Tel
2571 Alors j'ai remarqué que ça avait disparu dans le
document que vous avez déposé le 15 novembre. Je veux juste m'assurer que ç'a
2572 M. MARTEL: Oui, juste pour vous expliquer. Dans le
souci de respecter le travail de nos bénévoles, que nos bénévoles ont fait dans
le projet original parce qu'on parle toujours du projet original.
2573 En 1991, après qu'on a fait une semaine complète de
diffusion, on avait beaucoup de bénévoles qui étaient très motivés et il y a au
moins une quinzaine de ces personnes-là qui ont travaillé à développer la
première politique de programmation qu'on a déposée, comme vous dites, là, dans
le document original et c'était dans le respect du travail accompli par ces
bénévoles-là qu'on a déposé cette politique-là.
2574 Mais on s'est aperçu qu'au niveau de la gestion des
bénévoles, après avoir discuté avec nos consoeurs de l'Ontario et de l'ARC du
Canada, que le document qu'on avait déposé n'était pas vraiment à jour et on
s'est empressé de corriger le fait et d'avoir un document d'information des
bénévoles qui comprend un contrat où les gens sont très conscients de la
réglementation et de la responsabilité qui leur incombe quand ils vont
apparaître devant le micro et faire de la programmation à notre
2575 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et ça, ç'a été déposé le 19
2576 M. MARTEL: Oui.
2577 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Moi, je n'ai pas d'autre question.
Monsieur Martel, peut-être que vous pouvez prendre quelques minutes comme on a
donné à tous ceux qui sont passés avant vous pour nous résumer pourquoi vous
devriez avoir la fréquence.
2578 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Martel, peut-être que nous
allons attendre les questions de Me Rhéaume avant de passer à la
conclusion parce que peut-être il y aura lieu d'y insérer des commentaires de
plus. Merci, Madame Noël. Monsieur Rhéaume.
2579 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Ça
ne sera pas très long, Monsieur Martel. Dans votre document, le document que
vous avez déposé cet après-midi, à la page 9, il est question, au paragraphe
Projet représentatif de la diversité, il est question de partenaires financiers
avec l'hebdo, Le Métropolitain et également la Chaîne française de TVOntario
qu'on connaît très bien. Pouvez-vous nous préciser la nature de ce partenariat
et les contributions le cas échéant de vos partenaires?
2580 M. MARTEL: Pour commencer avec le journal Le
Métropolitain, on a le rédacteur en chef qui siège à notre conseil
d'administration et le partenariat qu'on propose avec le journal Le
Métropolitain, c'est un partenariat de développement du marché publicitaire pour
être capable de proposer à tous les annonceurs potentiels la possibilité de
placer des annonces en même temps dans le journal et à la radio et de pouvoir
gagner une exposition supplémentaire avec les dollars de publicité qui vont être
investis. Je ne sais pas si Nicol veut renchérir là-dessus.
2581 M. SIMARD: Absolument parce que c'est quelque chose
qu'on veut qui aille des deux côtés. Alors toute personne qui veut mettre de la
publicité dans Le Métropolitain va automatiquement avoir la chance, va se faire
offrir la possibilité de mettre leur publicité aussi à la radio. C'est quelque
chose... Alors admettant que eux vont avoir... La radio va avoir ses vendeurs,
Le Métropolitain aussi a déjà ses vendeurs, a un système d'établi, en place et
qui peut aider aussi à la radio à se trouver de la publicité, des revenus
supplémentaires et pour nous aussi c'est un avantage parce que plus on peut
offrir des aspects qui sont intéressants pour les commanditaires, mieux c'est.
Alors tout le monde y gagne là-dedans.
2582 M. BOUDJENANE: Peut-être pour rajouter aussi à cette
question, c'est qu'il y a aussi des propositions pour développer un partenariat
au niveau de la programmation elle-même. On pense éventuellement faire des
échanges entre les salles de nouvelles de TVOntario, notamment la Chaîne
française et les journalistes du Métropolitain pour pouvoir produire des
émissions donc en partenariat avec ces deux médiums qui existent déjà et qui ont
dans leur salle des journalistes chevronnés d'expérience.
2583 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Alors quand vous dites: "Nous
comptons parmi nos partenaires financiers TVOntario", si je comprends bien votre
propos, là, il n'y a rien de finaliser entre vous TVOntario, à l'heure qu'on se
2584 M. MARTEL: Il n'y pas d'entente si vous
2585 M. OUELLETTE: On a une lettre d'entente de
pré-projet. C'est que le partenariat avec TFO, on aimerait aller installer nos
studios dans le même édifice que TVOntario, cependant TVOntario n'est pas
propriétaire des espaces. C'est la compagnie Olympia & York qui est le
propriétaire et on est en train d'explorer parce qu'au niveau de la salle de
nouvelles de PANORAMA qui est très complète présentement et au niveau des
espaces à bureau de l'édifice de TFO, il n'y a pas l'espace nécessaire pour
installer tous nos studios. Alors, présentement, la discussion est au point où
l'édifice qui est adjacent à l'édifice de TVOntario qui est le 2200 Younge, qui
est un édifice qui fait partie, les trois premiers étages sont le même édifice,
là, mais il y a deux tours à bureaux.
2586 Alors c'est à cet endroit-là où il y aurait un espace
suffisant pour installer nos studios et comme le mentionnait Mohamed, les
discussions qu'on a eues sont au niveau de projets particuliers et au niveau
d'échanges avec les salles de nouvelles et d'échanges de journalistes où les
journalistes de la radio pourraient aller prendre de l'expérience à la
télévision et vice versa. Et dans les périodes creuses de la télévision, les
journalistes de TFO pourraient venir travailler chez nous sur une base à temps
partiel ou contractuelle. Alors c'est l'état des négociations. Parce qu'il y a
des syndicats qui sont impliqués, parce qu'il y a d'autres parties, on n'a pas
un document final mais les pourparlers vont bien et c'est dans l'esprit où se
font les discussions. Ça fait que TVOntario, et TFO en particulier, veulent
faire le partenariat avec nous mais au niveau particulier des locaux, c'est pas
eux qui ont la décision finale, c'est une autre partie.
2587 M. OUELLETTE: Est-ce que vous me permettez d'ajouter
un très bref commentaire? C'est que depuis deux ans TFO et les radios
communautaires déjà en onde ont un petit partenariat mais il est après se
développer et ceci ça rapporte un minimum monétairement. Mais c'est quand même
quelque chose d'intéressant puis c'est après se développer.
2588 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Je ne vous vois pas mais je vous
remercie. Une autre précision, Monsieur Martel. Vous avez déposé une série de
tableaux encore cet après-midi. Il y en a un qui est intitulé Tableau
d'assimilation et il y a un pourcentage. Je pense que vous en avez discuté
également dans votre présentation dans l'assimilation, est-ce que à la deuxième
ligne, langue d'usage, est-ce qu'on ne devrait pas lire anglais pour conclure au
pourcentage qui est au bas de la page?
2589 M. MARTEL: Ces données viennent de l'Office des
affaires francophones et de Statistique Canada. Alors la façon qu'on calcule
l'assimilation, on prend le nombre total de personnes qui ont déclaré que leur
langue maternelle était francophone et ensuite on regarde la donnée qui indique
la langue d'usage à la maison. Et particulièrement à Toronto, on...
2590 Et Monsieur Castonguay qui est professeur à
l'Université d'Ottawa pourrait vous l'expliquer en long et en large, mais si
vous lisez le livre L'enjeu de la langue en Ontario, vous allez comprendre que
l'exogamie, c'est-à-dire que des Francophones qui se marient avec quelqu'un qui
ne parle pas le français, et aussi le fait que quand la mère, plus souvent en
tout cas, quand la mère ne parle pas le français, la langue à la maison est
l'anglais, et les enfants de ces mariages mixtes-là, en grande majorité, ne
parlent pas le français à la maison et c'est d'où le pourcentage qu'on voit au
tableau 1 et au tableau 2. Et au tableau 1, c'est l'Ontario au complet. Le
tableau 2, c'est les régions de Toronto et les régions environnantes où le
chiffre est de 20 pour cent supérieur au chiffre d'assimilation pour l'Ontario
2591 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Je pense que je vous suis,
Monsieur Martel, mais il me semblait que pour en arriver au pourcentage qui est
au bas de la page marquée assimilation, par exemple, à Toronto, 63,9, que la
langue d'usage comparativement à la langue maternelle aurait dû être l'anglais
et non le français. Mais de toute façon, je pense que j'ai compris votre point.
Je vais référer à un document qui est tout neuf, qui date de vendredi passé:
Politique relative à la radio communautaire. Vous avez dit, je pense, vous avez
mentionné en avoir pris connaissance. Alors, est-ce que vous avez des
commentaires particulièrement en ce qui a trait au paragraphe 27 et suivants. Je
ne sais pas si vous êtes réticent d'en discuter, je comprends fort bien, parce
que le document date de trois ou quatre jours à peine.
2592 En ce qui a trait aux conditions des licences
relatives à la programmation. Et c'est court, en fait, vous avez le paragraphe
28, puis vous en avez discuté avec Madame Noël, mais il est clair de votre
demande qu'à titre de station de type A, que votre demande rencontre cette
politique. À partir du paragraphe 27, le chapitre ou la section Exigences en
matière de programmation. Et le sens de ma question est que vous avez dit, je
pense, en présentation en avoir pris connaissance de cette politique.
2593 M. MARTEL: Oui. On est extrêmement heureux et
conscient de ce pourcentage mentionné à l'article 28. On a mentionné que, parce
qu'on serait une station de type A qu'on aurait au moins 15 pour cent de la
programmation chaque semaine qui serait de la programmation de création orale
axée sur la collectivité et on s'attend que 15 pour cent, ça va être le minimum.
Ça ne sera pas le maximum.
2594 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Paragraphe 29, maintenant. Et
puis on se quitte après ça.
2595 M. MARTEL: Je dois vous dire que pour le paragraphe
29, je ne peux pas vous répondre parce que quand on rentre dans les
sous-catégories, il faut, il va falloir regarder mais dans l'ensemble, on était
solidaire avec la position de l'ARC du Canada que l'ARC a déposé auprès de la
Commission et je peux laisser mes collègues de l'ARC du Canada vous dire qu'ils
sont heureux parce que leurs commentaires ont pratiquement tous été pris en
compte dans la nouvelle politique.
2596 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Excellent. Merci. Merci Madame la
2597 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci Me Rhéaume.
Maintenant, nous répétons l'invitation de Madame Noël à conclure. Nous donnons
le fameux cinq minutes pour nous dire que votre demande est celle qui devrait
être retenue pour la fréquence en question.
2598 M. MARTEL: Bien, pour résumer un peu notre position,
le fait que le français est une langue officielle au Canada, et comme l'a
mentionné la Commission Vision d'avenir sur l'assimilation au Canada en 1991, on
encourageait tous les paliers de gouvernement à travailler pour aider à mettre
sur pied des radios communautaires dans les communautés où on démontrait un
intérêt et où des projets mûrissaient. Je pense que Toronto est mûre.
2599 Je pense aussi que le fait que la grande région de
Toronto est une région désignée autant au niveau fédéral que provincial pour
recevoir des services en français et le fait qu'on n'entende pas assez dans les
médias traditionnels le point de vue des Francophones qui sont à l'extérieur du
Québec comme je l'ai mentionné dans ma présentation. Je pense que l'apport de
toute la diversité de notre conseil d'administration et de notre communauté,
l'apport aussi qu'on va amener au niveau de la programmation culturelle et
canadienne qui va être vivante et différente de tout ce que les autres groupes
qui sont devant vous vont présenter et j'aimerais aussi peut-être demander à
Maurice McGraw, le président de l'Alliance des radios communautaires de vous
dire quelle importance il voit dans votre décision d'accorder cette licence à la
Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.
2600 M. McGRAW: Une dix-neuvième station pour l'ARC du
Canada et le Réseau francophone d'Amérique est très importante et que ce soit
Toronto, c'est d'autant plus important. Nous touchons actuellement environ
400 000 auditeurs et avec la venue du territoire de Toronto, on pourra voir
augmenter ce nombre-là de façon considérable. Éventuellement, nous voulons
atteindre le fameux chiffre de 800 000, de toucher à 800 000 auditeurs
francophones à travers le pays. Donc, Toronto peut grandement nous aider à ce
niveau-là. Plusieurs services du Réseau francophone d'Amérique vont aussi
permettre à aider la Coopération de Toronto à réaliser ses objectifs et sa
promesse de réalisation. Nous avons plusieurs partenaires à l'ensemble du Réseau
francophone d'Amérique et à l'ARC du Canada et à ce fait, nous pourrons
grandement aider la Coop de Toronto. En ce qui a trait à l'aspect formation,
c'est aussi un élément que l'ARC du Canada touche.
2601 Nous avons un budget annuel de formation et nous
avons aussi de l'expertise à offrir à partir de notre brochette de 18 stations
qui existent à travers le Canada. Donc nous pourrons offrir énormément en
formation à la Coop de Toronto.
2602 M. MARTEL: Je pense que Marius Ouellette, notre
représentant de notre organisme provincial, aussi veut dire un petit
2603 M. OUELLETTE: Bien, permettez-moi d'ajouter suite à
ce que le président de l'ARC vient de dire, c'est qu'on a parlé beaucoup de
facteurs assimilation aujourd'hui. On a parlé aussi de marché. Et puis à
l'intérieur du plan de développement de MICRO qui aimerait d'ici cinq ans avoir
des radios communautaires francophones en province et ensuite de ça dans une
deuxième phase ajouter peut-être des antennes répétitrices de sorte que, avec
les nouveaux moyens de technologie, on serait capable de faire entrer chaque
communauté en onde tous les jours. C'est que Toronto se place au centre même de
ce plan de développement et voici pourquoi.
2604 Lorsqu'on parle d'assimilation, c'est une chose dont
on a parlé aussi. Mais un facteur dont on n'a pas donné de détail aujourd'hui,
c'est que dans l'effort que nous faisons pour atteindre l'auto-financement de
nos radios, c'est qu'on doit vendre et les grandes entreprises qui se trouvent,
qui ont, disons, des succursales dans nos petites communautés, ont leur bureau
chef ici à Toronto. Mais lorsqu'on essaie de pénétrer le marché, ici même à
Toronto, on se fait dire assez carrément que à l'extérieur de Toronto, il y a
quoi? Et on dirait que les marchés ne sont pas nécessairement intéressés. Ces
grandes entreprises-là ne sont pas intéressées à annoncer à l'extérieur. Alors
imaginez que s'il fallait que Toronto, que vous, que Toronto obtienne leur
licence, et que nous soyons en mesure de percer ce marché des grandes
entreprises, ici même à Toronto, vous pouvez vous imaginer la répercussion sur
toutes nos autres radios membres. Ce serait incroyable.
2605 Alors il faut bien dire également que, en plus
d'augmenter cette crédibilité-là, la grande concentration de Francophones qui se
trouve ici à Toronto, c'est la deuxième plus grande concentration à l'extérieur
du Québec, c'est-à-dire en Ontario, après Ottawa. C'est considérable. Alors que
nos radios ont de plus petits auditoires, ici à Toronto, ça se passerait très
grand. Et à cause aussi de l'effet multiculturel des communautés, on peut
s'imaginer que tout ceci entre dans le cadre du développement de tout ce que les
services de Patrimoine Canada peuvent offrir. Et un autre élément en terminant
aussi, c'est que lorsqu'on parle de vente de publicité ou d'achat de publicité,
et de cette offre que nous faisons au gouvernement de la province et l'ARC, le
Réseau RFA le fait au niveau national. C'est qu'il faut bien se dire qu'avec la
Loi sur les langues, le gouvernement se doit d'offrir la publicité dans les deux
langues et puis il est bien entendu qu'à certains moments, on y voit des écarts
et des manquements considérables.
2606 Mais en insistant le moindrement, on croit que ceci
est possible et que c'est pour nos radios communautaires une occasion très très
grande d'aller chercher ceci parce qu'à Toronto, c'est aussi une région
2607 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, Monsieur Martel
et vos collègues, et nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 heures. We will start
tomorrow morning at 9, I believe, with an application by a numbered company
represented by Mr. Roger De Brabant.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1740,
to resume on Wednesday, February 2, 2000 at 0900 /
L'audience est ajournée à 1740 pour reprendre le
mercredi 2 février 2000 à 0900