ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription - Toronto, ON - 2000/02/01

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS AND LICENCES/

DEMANDES ET LICENCES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 1, 2000 le 1^er février 2000

Volume 2

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Public Hearing / Audience publique

Broadcasting Applications and Licences/

Demandes et licences en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

A. Wylie Chairperson/Présidente

M. Wilson Commissioner/Conseillère

J. Pennefather Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Cardozo Commissioner/Conseiller

R. Williams Commissioner/Conseiller

C. Grauer Commissioner/Conseillère

A. Noël Commissioner/Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

D. Rhéaume Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Triumph Howard Johnson Triumph Howard Johnson

Plaza-Hotel Plaza-Hotel

MacDonald-Cartier Salle de bal

Ballroom MacDonald-Cartier

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

February 1, 2000 le 1^er février 2000

Volume 2

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE

PRESENTATION BY

Durham Radio Incorporated 2

Questions by the Commission 20

Questions by Commission Counsel 83

PRESENTATION BY

CKMW Radio Limited 90

Questions by the Commission 109

PRESENTATION BY

La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc. 191

Questions by the Commission 205

Questions by Commission Counsel 245

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 1, 2000

at 0904 / L'audience reprend le mardi

1^er février 2000, à 0904

1573 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Welcome back to our hearing.

1574 Mr. Secretary.

1575 MR. CUSSONS: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1576 Our first applications today are by Durham Radio Incorporated, to amend the broadcasting licence for CJKX-FM Ajax by adding a transmitter at Toronto operating on frequency 93.5 MHz (channel 228A) with an effective radiated power of 205 watts; or to amend the broadcasting licence for CJKX-FM by adding a transmitter at Toronto operating on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A1) with an effective radiated power of 63 watts.

1577 The Commission notes that the 106.3 MHz frequency is requested by the applicant in the event that the 93.5 MHz frequency is granted to another applicant, and that these applications are technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing for the use of the 93.5 and 106.3 MHz frequencies.

1578 We have Mr. Kirk and his colleagues.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1579 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Mr. Cussons.

1580 Good morning.

1581 Before we begin I just want to give you a 30-second snapshot in a video form of CJKX-FM.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

1582 MR. KIRK: A formal good morning. We will play you a bit more later.

1583 Chairman Wylie, Commissioners Noël, Grauer, Wilson, Pennefather, Cardozo and Williams, my name is Doug Kirk by the way and before I begin I want to introduce the applicant and the panel a little more fully for you.

1584 Durham Radio Inc. is the owner of CJKX-FM. It's an independently owned company. I own it with my wife Mary who is in the audience today. We, with 19 extremely dedicated professional broadcasters operate this radio station on the east side of Metro Toronto.

1585 Our current frequency of 95.9 is based in Ajax and we have a supplementary repeater station at 89.9 MHz in Sunderland, Ontario which is just south of Lake Simcoe. Right now we are Durham's number one originating radio station.

1586 We commenced operations in November of 1994 on the conversion of an AM station which had been in the country format for about 25 years. So overall we have a 30-year country music heritage with this radio station.

1587 We operate in this market. We know the challenges and opportunities ahead for any new entrant into the Toronto market.

1588 Before we highlight our presentation, I just want to introduce our team this morning. You know me and on my right is Steve Kassay. Steve has been with CJKX since inception. Steve is Operations Manager and Program Director of the radio station.

1589 To Steve's right is Adrian Vogel. Adrian is in charge of artist liaison and music promotion and continuity with artists and Canadian music development at the station.

1590 On my left is Steve Macaulay. Steve is operating the presentation today. Steve is General Sales Manager at CJKX.

1591 Behind me in the back row I have Jerry Archer who is immediately behind me. Jerry is the morning co-host at CJKX-FM and with Jerry today we have three of Canada's -- two, and one on the way, of Canada's finest new country artists. We have Thomas Wade who is on the far right and Jim Witter on the left. Beverley Mahood is commuting today from Kitchener and we hope is not seriously delayed and is in transit and will join us.

1592 We are here to secure your approval to provide Canada's largest city with new country radio. The Commission has an opportunity to approve three applications. We urge the Commission to do so, thereby maximizing the use of the radio spectrum in Toronto.

1593 There are three frequencies available at 93.5-FM, 106.3-FM and 740-AM. I guess you have heard this before, but these are the last available FM frequencies in the Toronto area. It seems like there has been about three hearings on the last FM for the Toronto area, but these are much smaller frequency channels and according to our consulting engineers they are it.

1594 In addition, there is a clear channel AM frequency available for regional service for southern Ontario.

1595 We believe these frequencies should go to applicants who demonstrate that their service will add diversity to programming and serve the largest audience in the Toronto market. Now we will begin our presentation.

1596 I don't need to tell you that the Toronto market is capable of handling additional radio service. It is Canada's largest radio market. Its 1998 radio revenue was $149.9 million, up 10.9 per cent from the previous year, or that's almost $15 million. The four year annual growth rate has been 7.6 per cent.

1597 In the Commission's terms, PBIT, or profit before interest and taxes, was $23.7 million, a very healthy market, up 26 per cent, this is in 1998, up 26.1 per cent from 1997, the four year average annual growth rate of 35.9 per cent.

1598 We expect that these trends have continued. The economy is very strong in southern Ontario and particularly in Toronto. We think that these revenue trends have been shown by other data which we don't have privy to that the Toronto broadcasters gather. These trends are continuing and the market is strong.

1599 I will turn it over to Steve Kassay now who will review the current Toronto radio map. Steve.

1600 MR. KASSAY: Thank you, Doug.

1601 Good morning.

1602 The chart before you illustrates the make-up of the Toronto market in terms of FM radio stations in three years in three columns, coincidentally, years of public hearing. To read the chart properly, for instance, the first line, "Adult Contemporary" there were four stations in 1990, four in 1997 and four in the year 2000, the current year.

1603 Similarly, "Rock" two stations, two, and two.

1604 "Multicultural," two in 1990, two in 1997 and two in 2000.

1605 "Classical Jazz," two in 1990, three in 1997, three in 2000.

1606 The "CHR" dance format, from zero in 1990 to two in 1997, three in 2000.

1607 The "News Talk" format, the "French" and the "Country", zero at the start of the 1990s, one by 1997, presently zero.

1608 Similarly, Toronto AM stations, the chart is read the same way for "News Talk," "Oldies" and "Music" format, "Multicultural," "French" and "Country" which has not seen a format in Toronto on the AM band since the early nineties.

1609 I would like to introduce to you Jerry Archer who has some comments on AM radio in Toronto during that time. Jerry.

1610 MR. ARCHER: Thank you, Steve.

1611 I think I have a unique insight as to the atmosphere and what was happening. My experience in the country format in Toronto was gained with a radio station known as Country 59. That insight included -- I should mention that the station was located at No. 1 Yonge Street just for historical facts. It was owned by Maclean-Hunter Limited at that time.

1612 Country 59, as a matter of fact, was the No. 1 country station in Canada. Clearly, I think that illustrates the strength of the country format in Toronto. Our presence in Toronto facilitated artists appearances, concerts, showcases, highlighting how a local, originating country format with a strong signal can achieve and has achieved. Country 59's success provided a stage for a new breed of artists, artists such as Jim Witter who is present today and Jim will be talking later on, but Jim's success, along with other emerging artists who are joining us here as well, have been affected directly by the loss of an originating Toronto signal.

1613 Ten years ago country music was elevated to a new level, which the format had never before experienced. In our current market, KX-96 continues to see significant growth, as evidenced by the latest BBM results in the fall of 1999.

1614 I would like to throw things over to Doug now.

1615 MR. KIRK: Thanks, Jerry.

1616 In the next few minutes we want to present the case for country. It's the only mainstream format not available in Canada's largest market. There is quantifiable proof of demand for the format in the market. Also, the format has been financially successful in the past and, most important, it's crucial to develop and support Canada's world class country music talent.

1617 Country music is the second most popular format in Canada, as you can see, either in the books or on the screen next to AC. This was from StatsCanada fall 1998 report released this July.

1618 If we look across the country at various markets, country format market shares are varying, but do show good results across the market. In Vancouver country music has a 5.2 share in the market. The station ranks eighth out of 20, through Edmonton, Calgary, Regina shares in the teens. Station rankings in the top three, often first, Winnipeg second with a 12.5 country music share in the market.

1619 Moving to markets in the eastern part of Canada, London with a 9.2 share, the third-ranked station of 13 in the market; a 9.8 share in Ottawa, third of sixteen in the market and high teens market shares in Halifax and St. John's. Again, well ranked, almost at the top of the format.

1620 Steve

1621 MR. KASSAY: The country format share in Toronto, looking in 1998, the last time the Toronto originating country FM took a full BBM book, we can see it accomplished a five and a half share in the market, and that ranked seven out of the twenty reporting stations in Toronto.

1622 Now, without the local originating station, fall 1999, we see the share drop to 1.3. That is a decline of 76 per cent.

1623 The market impact of the loss of the originating country station on all persons, looking at the same time frames in terms of hours tuned, 3.67 million hours, plummeting 69 per cent to 1.1 million.

1624 In terms of the cumulative audience with the originating station, 360,000 people. Without the originating station in Toronto, 144,000.

1625 Our analysis clearly indicates a proven audience in excess of 360,000 for a local originating country station, and with the loss of the originating country station over 2.5 million hours per week of tuning to country music has evaporated.

1626 Doug.

1627 MR. KIRK: I would just point out the 2.5 million hours of tuning that has been lost to country music in Toronto is larger than any other country station operating in Canada at the moment.

1628 To create this tuning we need a signal and in Map 1 on the screen now, and in your books, we had our consulting engineer create a composite signal map of CJKX, as I mentioned, the main signal, based in Ajax in Durham Region. The repeater signal at the top of the map based in Sunderland and down at the bottom left would be the addition of the Toronto signal.

1629 The next map, Map 2, highlights our current unimpaired signal coverage from the two existing transmitters for CJKX. That's Map 2 highlighted in yellow.

1630 Of particular note is the grey area along the top of the main transmitter, 95.9. That is impaired coverage because of adjoining or closely spaced stations or co-channel stations where we experience interference to our main signal.

1631 So, as you can see there, we cover a small part of Scarborough with an unimpaired signal, but very little of the remainder of Toronto.

1632 Going to Map 3 shows the additional coverage by adding the Toronto transmitter. That's the 93.5 transmitter based in downtown Toronto. You see it provides coverage to virtually all of Toronto and adding on secondary coverage in the west part of the GTA and Mississagua and Brampton.

1633 In our home market we have had a very successful run. As I mentioned before, we are the number one originating station in the Durham market, in the Oshawa-Whitby market. We rank third of all stations. We are ahead of all but two of the Toronto stations in an extremely competitive market.

1634 We did some research, conducted some research from a company by the name of Mobiltrak. Mobiltrak monitors in-car tuning. They have monitoring stations throughout the city. They did this in the City of Toronto, Markham, around through to Mississagua and we want to make a point here of where we have signal and the results in Durham where our prime signal is speak for themselves, and where we have strong signal we have strong tuning. These are the Mobiltrak results on the screen and in the pages in the book shows in Scarborough and, as I mentioned, we don't have a perfect signal in Scarborough, but in Scarborough from Mobiltrak results in December shows CJKX as the sixth ranked station with a 6.3 share in Scarborough.

1635 In Scarborough we have a good signal in about half of it and impaired signal in the balance as you work west.

1636 CJKX stood up well with the Toronto stations, about equal to Q-107, behind some of the very large Toronto stations, but certainly ahead of other significant Toronto stations like CJEZ and CFNY. So we are proud of what we are doing in the market. People in Scarborough where they can get the signal like country music and tune us in.

1637 Making the point, as we work west with Mobiltrak data on this part, these are samples taken from the City of Toronto, the old City of Toronto, the core of the market. In this cell our signal, as shown on the map, has declined and is impaired and you see our positioning share there has gone from 6 per cent of tuning to six-tenths of 1 per cent -- in other words, diminishing signal equals share decline.

1638 Moving out to Mississagua, in the Mississagua cell that Mobiltrak ranked, a similar time frame. You can see a similar line-up of large Toronto stations and where we have no signal we have no share. So clearly, I think, this explains that country, where we can be received, is still very vibrant and alive.

1639 Now, where we do not have signal country music has waned.

1640 Steve will explain now how CJKX will evolve to serve the Toronto market.

1641 MR. KASSAY: Thank you.

1642 Indeed, we are very proud of what we do. We will serve Toronto by adding a Toronto studio and an office location. We have made provisions to add the studio and office space.

1643 We are committed to expanding our news department to include a Toronto-based reporter who would work in that location, providing on the street, in the area presence daily to enhance our news service.

1644 We would reassign our artist liaison representative to co-ordinate operations from the Toronto location, and we would adjust the programming orientation of CJKX to include the balance of the City of Toronto.

1645 MR. KIRK: In addition to programming and including the City of Toronto within our station, we have made some substantial commitments to develop Canadian country music.

1646 We have annual expenditures commencing at the $125,000 level to be spent in the market in Toronto on the development and promotion of Canadian country talent. As a key part of this we have planned to revive the Canada Day Country Festival, which was a very successful, high-profile event to promote Canadian country music. It has subsequently waned, but we want to revive that event. It was a very high-profile event.

1647 And also, we will expand the already successful KX-96 Cradle to Rave Talent Search. This is a program we are running right now. It runs in the east part of metro out of one of the major clubs in Oshawa and has been successful in sourcing, finding talent. Steve is directly involved with that, producing a demo tape, a high-quality session for up and coming new artists.

1648 I will turn it over now to Adrian who will introduce our artists and they will speak briefly to Canadian country music.

1649 MS VOGEL: Madam Chair, Commissioners, joining us now, Beverley Mahood has arrived and I will start with introducing Beverley. In addition to being a multi-award winner in Canada, Beverley is one of our greatest female country singers. Now she is still experiencing tremendous success as a solo artist, but not good enough for Beverley. She has also created a brand new all female Canadian band by the name of Lace.

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

1650 MS VOGEL: ...is Jim Witter. Jim is a Hamilton based native country singer who is a nationally acclaimed songwriter and is one of Canada's leading male vocalists. Also complementing Jim's talent are two Juno nominees. Rumour has it more will be coming on Wednesday when they are being read out, and two Canadian Country Music Awards have been won, over a dozen nominations.

1651 Directly behind me is Thomas Wade, with three Juno nominations, seven Canadian Country Music Awards already added. Thomas has already been recognized nationally as an extremely successful singer in his band, Thomas Wade and Wayward. He is now embarking on a solo career. He has already released two nationally received singles from the yet to be released solo album Lucky 13.

1652 MR. WADE: Hi. Sure, this happens to the singer. It's just like in the movies.

1653 I live in Toronto. My name is Thomas Wade, and I have been playing concerts across Canada since 1996, as either a supporting act or a headliner. The response to Canadian country in Toronto has been on a par with everywhere else in Canada, even Calgary, which has made it clear to me that country is not just for cowboys, lucky for me.

1654 When we had a country station here in Toronto I would play here approximately three or four times a year to very well received shows. Since losing the Toronto-based signal that has dropped off incredibly. I played a cross-country tour this last December, called the Huron Carol Tour, with four other Canadian country artists. And across the country it sold out almost everywhere and often within hours of going on sale.

1655 It was a great show. The one big disappointment was the biggest city we played and that was Toronto because the people didn't know we were here. Thank you.

1656 MS MAHOOD: I would just like to add to that, that that is a really sad point. It was for the support of the food banks right across Canada and the sad part is that it was only half filled in Toronto, which is our city and which the two of us were on the tour this year. Last year it was sold out within two weeks.

1657 I would just like to say that the support that Toronto has given me was incredible. I released an independent record four years ago which, being an independent artist, you don't get the support from a big, major label, but I got the support from a huge radio station which was in Toronto, which then created recognition for me and profile internationally that I got signed to a major deal with David Foster and Warner Records.

1658 The sad part of it is that at that time we also had a huge festival that happened at The Beaches. Eleven thousand people attended that two years ago. It is sad to see that nobody attended it this year and it didn't even happen.

1659 I really think that we deserve a country radio station right in Toronto. These people definitely believe in it and I believe in them.

1660 It's sad for me to think that in Toronto I am known more for my sports expertise on a TSN show than I am for my music.

1661 Thank you very much.

1662 MR. WITTER: Good morning.

1663 I am just going to reiterate I think a little bit of what Thomas and Bev said. As a Canadian country recording artist who has in the past and continues to make his living solely here in Canada, we rely on our music to be available in the major markets.

1664 For my point, mostly to develop an audience there, when country was available in Toronto I had developed a market to a point where I was able to do shows in places like the Ford Centre. That was the last show I did a few years ago. Over the course of two or three years we developed a good following here, and now that radio is gone I haven't done a show in Toronto in a year and a half.

1665 So I am just going to support, of course, Durham's application. I think to continue to make a living doing what I do we need country music in Toronto.

1666 Thank you.

1667 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Jim, Beverley and Thomas. I think the case is clear and stated.

1668 Just to wind up here, the impact of the country format in Toronto will not cripple or damage any existing service. This is tuning that was there. It's diffused out into either other stations, other formats or just disappeared from the airwaves and people take alternative ways of finding country music.

1669 In our business plan our projected revenues I think are conservative and can be easily accommodated by the expected growth of the Toronto market. As mentioned, the market is very big and very strong and the station can make its way into this market without hurting anyone else.

1670 We also believe -- and, clearly, country adds diversity to the Toronto radio market without impairing or taking away anything from any other broadcaster.

1671 In closing, we have proved there is a significant demand for country music in Toronto. Our application offers improvement to the competitive situation in Canada's largest market. It's an independent company entering this market, which is able to support an additional radio service.

1672 We will add diversity to the market in terms of programming and new voices, and we will provide significant benefit to the growth and development of Canadian country music talent.

1673 Our last word is that our proposal merits awarding one of the FM frequencies being considered for licensing at this hearing. It's a licence which will maximize the use of the commercial radio spectrum in Toronto.

1674 Thank you very much, and we promised a little more fun and video and here it is. Thank you.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

1675 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, ladies and gentlemen.

1676 Commissioner Williams, please.

1677 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning.

1678 MR. KIRK: Good morning.

1679 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I am going to lead the questioning for the Durham Radio application, which is for a technical amendment to extend the coverage of their Ajax country station through the addition of a transmitter in Toronto.

1680 Durham has set out two technical options in their application. The first option is for the better of the two frequencies available, 93.5. This option will provide CJKX will full primary coverage to central and western Toronto, as well as secondary coverage to Mississagua and Brampton.

1681 Option two is for the other remaining FM frequency to serve Toronto, 106.3. This option will improve CJKX's coverage in central Toronto.

1682 As we work our way through the questions, your application notes that CISS-FM was operating in the country format and achieved decent ratings, in fact, above most of the AM and some of the FM services serving Toronto. In your view, why haven't any of the other Toronto stations moved to a country format to fill the void?

1683 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have difficulty hearing Commissioner Williams?

1684 MR. KIRK: Yes. It is a bit low. I think we heard the question though.

--- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques

1685 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you need to have us start over from the top?

1686 MR. KIRK: No.

1687 If I can just repeat the question to make sure we understand it. I think it was that there was an existing originating station in Toronto, CISS-FM. For strategic reasons on an ownership change it changed format and I think the question was why no one has picked it up in the market. Have I got that correct?

1688 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.

1689 MR. KIRK: That's a good question. They may fear us coming into the market I hope, but I don't know why another station didn't pick up the format. You can see from our presentation that we sincerely believe in it. It's a very good format in our prime market of Durham region. Where we have some signal in Toronto I think we have demonstrated to you that there is tuning and demand for the format. There was clearly excitement and momentum in the format with an originating station.

1690 I think one of the points to be made here is that there are not enough FM frequencies that have been assigned in the market. Obviously, commercial broadcasters take it from the top. They will gravitate to the frequencies, or to the formats with the frequencies that they own to try and get the biggest formats first in the market. At this point, among the commercial stations they have picked those formats and we're next.

1691 I think just to amplify a little on this, in the 1990 award of the frequency that licensed CISS-FM the Commission looked at the competitive landscape in Toronto and awarded a licence to an originating country station. That station did well. The format did not disappear out of this market because it failed. The format was quite successful. It had very good ratings and it had a lot of excitement in the market. The station did well.

1692 I understand from people who work there that the station had achieved very good revenue and billings and certainly the Commission is aware of that through the filing that CISS-FM would have made with the Commission. So it was billing well. It was producing good income, but in a very competitive market on a strategic change you will take the format which for a commercial broadcaster will generate the most out of the market and we just don't have enough FMs.

1693 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Kirk.

1694 When CISS-FM was operating in the country format was there a lot of duplication in the playlist with your existing Ajax station, or did the Toronto station skew more to new country, for example?

1695 MR. KIRK: I will start and then I will turn it over to Steve who works out every playlist every day and does it extremely well.

1696 CISS-FM and CJKX-FM are both new country stations. There was a substantial duplication of the music universe, but with some important differences and I will turn it over to Steve to answer that question more fully.

1697 MR. KASSAY: Yes. Thank you, Doug.

1698 They are both new country -- well, at the time were both new country formats. I do recall when we appeared before the Commission in 1997 for the available 99.1 that we presented evidence showing that 63 per cent of the current lists, which is the bulk of the music which is played most frequently throughout the day and throughout the week were not duplicated, and that is because we did clearly see a difference between the music programming of KX-96 and CISS-FM, in that we played music which would, we think, be generally more accepted as being country music, as opposed to country music mixed with songs one might consider to be more pop oriented, adult contemporary styled, artists which were not traditionally known to know where Nashville was on the map. It was a different mix.

1699 We play what is more generally accepted as being country music.

1700 MR. KIRK: I think in sum though, if you put the stations on position one and position two on your car dash and worked between them, they would both be to your ear new country radio stations, distinct from other formats on the band.

1701 Just as a point here, when we started up CISS was already in operation. When we started CJKX in 1994, CISS had a very significant market share in the Durham region as a point, and over the period while the stations both had signals available in Durham region, we won the battle out there because of the way the station was operated and being in the community, a little closer to the community out there, a little tighter focus. But we moved up and acceded CISS-FM at the time. I guess we moved up to sort of a three to one ratio versus CISS with two country signals in the market.

1702 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would the proposed move to Toronto result in some fine tuning to the music played on CJKX-FM?

1703 MR. KASSAY: If I hear you correctly, would the addition of Toronto imply a change in the music played? No, it would not. In terms of the style of music or the list of artists, is this what you are asking?

1704 My answer is no. We are proud of our product. It's successful. Where we have coverage, to expand on Doug's point, when he mentioned us winning our market, so to speak, against CISS because they surely were in ours, it's successful. It continues to be successful. It continues to grow and from comments we receive that's what's missing. No, we would not.

1705 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about spoken word programming? Would there be changes there?

1706 MR. KIRK: The spoken word programming, this would be the news and surveillance material, the make-up and focus of the radio station, as we mentioned in our presentation, would evolve.

1707 When CJKX was started -- let me reel back a little bit, in 1994 we had acquired an AM station, a previous AM station which was based in Ajax. It was focused very tightly and it had been in a downward slope for a long time. And when we strategized and put CJKX on the air, we said, "Well, we don't want this. This is bigger than Ajax." Our licence proposal was to serve Durham. Durham was a group of communities. There are five cities along the lake, starting at Pickering, through Ajax, Oshawa, Whitby, Clarington, along the lakeshore of Lake Ontario and there are three communities, more rural communities in the north part of Durham region.

1708 Our strategy was to conceptualize CJKX as a Durham region radio station and we did that. We serve all those communities. We went out and found the news and focused on the events that were pertinent to them, our community events program which Adrian was a part of at one point. We just went out and we took the station to those communities, not excluding one community for another, but viewing them all as a region.

1709 Our step into Toronto would have a similar process. Obviously, if we moved to Toronto, you would have to focus a bit more on Toronto. There's no doubt about it that the station would have to speak to the community and to the people. You can't add to the same thing. You would have to then, with the available time, it's a bit of a zero sum game, so if you add a little focus to Toronto you are going to have to diminish the Durham focus a little bit.

1710 But we have done that. We have managed that. We brought a station from a broken down AM to a very successful regional FM and we are very confident with the plans we have in place to be able to take that, bring a Toronto focus to the station and still maintain the original home of the radio station. In other words, the radio station will evolve into a bigger station.

1711 It's something that the Toronto stations do all the time. They talk about the Greater Toronto Area and they can service that from a downtown location. We can service the Greater Toronto focus from a location in Ajax which is in the GTA.

1712 I don't know if you want to add a little more to that.

1713 MR. KASSAY: It's a different perspective I think. That's all I wish to add. It would be service from a different perspective, a different point of view. I think we can offer that.

1714 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your application you provided some share estimations based on Option One and Option Two. Do you feel the audience for country music will return in the same numbers as were evident with the former country station? If so, why do your estimates not reach this level throughout the seven-year term?

1715 MR. KIRK: Just give me a second to find the specifics.

1716 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take whatever time you need.

1717 MR. KIRK: Yes. Under Option One we project a starting two share, ramping up quickly in the first two to three years to a three share and then gaining a little growth under the full market.

1718 We believe that the audience can be reinvigorated in the country music format. I think there is evidence of that from the data we presented. Where it's there and the signal is good, you see the demand for country and the tuning is there.

1719 Obviously, when you start out, and I will leave Steve to address that point, we have seen growth in our market when we started out and there has been a good, positive trend line right through the history of CJKX and we are using the same thing.

1720 We don't think going out and shooting off a lot of fireworks at the beginning to launch a radio station is it. You have got to build that audience and win one listener at a time. That's what we have done in Durham. It has been a very one-to-one approach, being intimate with the radio station and they stay with the radio station. You continue to build that audience. We have shown we can do that.

1721 In Toronto we are trying to give you a base case where we think you could stimulate a two share very quickly because it's been there. It has been neglected by the broadcasting business of Canada -- in other words, there has been no originating country format, so it will take some time to bring an awareness back up and bring them on to the station. But over time, we have shown that we can build over time and that's the philosophy behind those share numbers in our application.

1722 Obviously, the 93.5 signal with more coverage and more people let's us build a bigger share in the market than the 106.3, which really just fills in some of the impaired signal areas in the eastern part of Toronto and gives us access to the central core, but it wouldn't give us much in the way of an ability to reach the Etobicoke, Mississagua, Brampton area. It just doesn't have enough power to get that far.

1723 Both I think would be very positive for country music. Obviously, we have got to start at a lower base with the smaller signal and ramp it up.

1724 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

1725 Apart from relying on the historical BBM figures for tuning to CISS-FM, have you done any recent research on the appeal of country music in Toronto?

1726 MR. KIRK: We haven't done any outside surveys, no. The other research we did undertake was the Mobiltrak tuning research that we did.

1727 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tuning to out-of-market FM radio stations represents about 12 per cent of all Toronto tuning. How much of this tuning is to country stations?

1728 MR. KIRK: If you look back in the presentation books, it's the country format share in Toronto, the page with the arrow on it. If you look at the country format share page, 1998, the total market share in Toronto was 5.5 per cent. Of that, CISS-FM was about 4.6 per cent. The balance being -- we would have a tiny part of that share, a small fraction, 1 per cent and then there are some other out-of-market stations, all of which collectively added up to .9 per cent.

1729 With the loss of the originating station, similarly in the fall 1999, obviously some people are tuning us where they can get it. There is some other fringe tuning in the market, but the total share collected among all those little slices that exist for stations in there add up to 1.3 per cent. That's our tuning, the station in Newmarket, the station in Welland and Hamilton. They are all -- nobody gets more than a half a per cent share in total, but accumulates to the 1.3.

1730 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Assuming your proposal is approved for 93.5, can you estimate how much of this listenership, if any, would be repatriated?

1731 MR. KIRK: I didn't get the end of that question.

1732 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. Assuming your proposal for 93.5 is approved, could you estimate or give us your best guess on how much of this listenership, if any, would be repatriated?

1733 MR. KIRK: Our year one assumptions are for a 2 per cent share. So we think right out of the gate about half of that lost listenership would be taken up. Again, that's a starting point and by the end of year three with a three share that would compare to a little over 4 per cent that CISS had in the market. We would be repatriating roughly two-thirds to three-quarters or reinvigorating that listenership.

1734 Over the long run, the longer run of our projection here, we expect we could get virtually all of it back.

1735 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

1736 Since you have acquired the assets of the Ajax station you have applied to the Commission and received approval on two occasions for a power increase. You are now proposing to rebroadcast programming originating in Ajax to the Toronto area and from your application you say it is programming which will reflect the community it serves and as an integral part of doing business in Toronto contribute to the economic well being of employees, artists and clients.

1737 You also indicate that the news, weather, sports and traffic information will address problems and issues directly relevant to the listener, which leads into a few questions.

1738 Could you please explain how you intend to serve a Toronto audience, while continuing to meet the specific needs of Ajax and Durham County listeners?

1739 MR. KIRK: I think in your statement and in that question there are several parts to it. Could I go through the technical part of it first? You mentioned power increases and so on.

1740 We have a map here, if I can maybe just explain that to you. This map, again, it's in Map 1 in the book. This is just a blowup of that map. In here is the main signal.

1741 The power increases that we had applied for, we were experiencing -- let me just back up. In that grey area in your map in the book, highlighted here, the grey area shows potential interference and it is there, to the CJKX main signal.

1742 Over the period that we have had the station in operation and last year we did increase the power, but it was really to firm up coverage in the core market in Durham region. We were experiencing some very severe interference, even into Pickering and Ajax from time to time. The power increase actually provided as much signal or more signal gain to the east than the west. So, it firmed up this core coverage and we added a repeater last year, which is based in Sunderland, which again clears up this large area. This is all in Durham region and has improved our coverage in Durham region.

1743 So, as you can see, most of Toronto, in fact, experiences impaired signals. There is a little part of Scarborough here where we have clear, unimpaired coverage.

1744 Our estimate is that would be about 275,000 to 300,000 people in that part of Scarborough.

1745 The primary coverage of the 93.5 signal at 3.5 million of unimpaired coverage. So the duplication there is significantly less than 10 per cent.

1746 So with all the talk of power increases have really helped in the core market and the addition of a better transmitter has really helped us out in the core Durham region, but we have not through those power increases got access to the Toronto market in any significant way, other than a very small area of overlap here, less than 10 per cent of what would be added on.

1747 Now, just while we are on this point and so it's clear, in our options that we made to the Commission adding 106.3 is a significantly smaller signal than 93.5. Adding that, our proposed site is around the top of the Don Valley Parkway and 401 area. That will just allow us to cover this area. It will give us central Toronto and clear up interference issues in western Scarborough and the eastern part of Scarborough. Primarily, it is to get the signal down the Don Valley and cover the downtown better than we are doing right now.

1748 It improves service to about 700,000 or 800,000 people even with that tiny, little signal. It's a very significant add on to us and it's very important to us.

1749 I hope that covers the ground on why we have done what we have done on the technical side.

1750 I think Steve will talk to the point of how we are going to evolve and manage what our primary responsibility thus far has been to Durham and how it will evolve into the Toronto market.

1751 MR. KASSAY: Yes. If I understood your question correctly, then it would also involve a response based on news and information. Is that correct?

1752 As you can see from our current coverage area, and further to Doug's explanation, indeed, Durham, just shy of a half a million people itself, constitutes a very large part of what we would call the GTA. Communities on the west akin to it perhaps might be Mississagua, Brampton.

1753 We are very experienced now in serving and successfully serving a variety of communities, if you will, five distinct towns or cities, three major communities to the north. We manage the area over the air. We manage the area on the ground in terms of coverage and we have become very successful in talking to each of the communities, dealing with their news, and folding out westbound to bring in Toronto and central Toronto we feel we would be applying the same principles to what we do where we are into the east, west.

1754 Our current coverage area, as Doug pointed out, does cover a portion of Scarborough. In terms of service, day-to-day service, we consider that to be part of the big mix in terms of the information we provide. So our news and information today, news of importance to residents of Scarborough, we will not neglect. We will include in our information packages as well as we will include items of importance for Clarington, Oshawa or Pickering.

1755 MR. KIRK: Just to add a bit more, I think in your question you asked if we would be trying to cover Toronto from Ajax. Ajax is part of the Toronto CMA and it is getting further and further into the Toronto CMA as growth in this area explodes to the east.

1756 To build on Steve's point a little bit, other Toronto radio stations, the bulk of them are in the downtown core or very close to the downtown core of Toronto, and we look at that and think inevitably in the business you do reflect a little bit of where you live. That's the environment where the studio is and you just bring that to the station with you.

1757 In our case, Ajax is part of the Greater Toronto Area and part of the CMA, and we bring a lot of that to where we live. That's why the station has been successful in the area it has been broadcasting over its history.

1758 What we want to do is to add Toronto to that, and I have said it's a bit of some of the parts and you will have to give up a little bit. We won't neglect that, but the interesting aspect for the Commission to consider is we are not trying to be an Ajax station broadcasting into Toronto. We are going to evolve this to a Toronto station, a Toronto area station with an emphasis on the east part of the city. We can reflect on a more balanced way activities that are happening in the east part to the entire market.

1759 We are not going to say, "Well, we are moving this." We are not going to move. We are going to stay on that ground and pull in Toronto important information and reflect that, but in the process be able to reflect, if you will, levelling the field a little bit, bringing things that are important and we see going on in the east part of the city to the whole city.

1760 So, in fact, it provides a diversity of location within the market here. This is a very big market and virtually all of the stations talk about Queen and Yonge and Bay and Bloor and they are all focused on the downtown core. We will reflect that certainly and that's the point of putting the studio location and redeploying personnel into the core of Toronto. We have to be on the street and particularly as it involves Adrian.

1761 The artists come into the city. It's a whole lot easier for them to access our station and be reflected with the presence on the street in Toronto right downtown and have them come in for an interview and be able to promote their events and so on. It's a whole lot easier than asking them to hike out to the main studio in Ajax and back.

1762 But, as I said, this is not a situation where we are going to turn around and move the station into Toronto. I think it's a good balance here. We are going to reflect Toronto. We have to. It's a huge opportunity for us. Why wouldn't we do that? We are not just going to rebroadcast, if you will. We have to change the whole make-up of the station and strategy on how it exists on air and we've planned how to do that.

1763 The key point is that it will reflect the whole and it will have an emphasis, a continuing emphasis not to exclude Toronto, but to add that eastern focus to the GTA.

1764 I hope that fills the gap.

1765 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to explore that topic a little more. The current focus of CJKX, would you agree the station's mandate is to provide service to the Ajax market and then a regional service to Durham?

1766 MR. KIRK: That has been the primary focus of the radio station. In providing that service, though, we do extend beyond. There are a lot of people in Durham that commute, for example, right out to -- well, we have listeners that commute to Mississagua from Durham. They phone us on the road and e-mail us and everything else, and we do cover traffic and surveillance information and this is important to listeners moving into the GTA.

1767 As I said, that wouldn't be the prime focus, but it is certainly important to our listeners. They exist in the bigger world. It doesn't stop at the Durham/Toronto boundary and we don't stop the focus of the radio station there. They are driving through that boundary because they work in Scarborough or in Etobicoke or Mississagua. We carry that with them.

1768 Certainly if Adrian and Steve want to comment further, or Jerry, on that point, I would welcome that.

1769 MR. KASSAY: Most of the comments we get back are based on, well, we take you as far as we can. We lose you and we lose our music. We lose country period. We lose touch with our favourite station. Everyone has a favourite station it seems and all of a sudden it's gone.

1770 Included in our application you would note a page of e-mail comments reflecting the same thing. People try to listen on-line as best they can. We usually get maxed out pretty quick and that's the biggest problem, they can't take us with them throughout their day because, as Doug says, their day doesn't end and the world doesn't end at the Rouge. It carries on westbound and that's a big problem we face in terms of local service, service to individuals throughout their day and music, not being able to provide the format past a certain, if you will, geographical spot.

1771 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Assuming you are successful in getting Option One, 93.5, would you shift the orientation more towards serving the needs of metropolitan Toronto to the detriment of Ajax and the Durham region?

1772 MR. KIRK: I don't -- I guess I take issue with detriment as a descriptor of the service. As I mentioned, we are committed and we planned how to evolve the service and we will have to highlight a bigger area. We will have to highlight Toronto. That's a tremendous add on. It would be very, very beneficial for the country music business and for this radio station to have that additional coverage.

1773 We could make a huge difference for the music industry and for the people at the station and the prospects for it. We will be able to do a lot more within the broadcasting business. So, obviously, we have to include it, but I wouldn't call it a detriment to Durham. We will still focus that.

1774 But again, you can't -- I want to distinguish between the role of evolving the station and broadcasting to this larger coverage area which is important to us. It's crucial to developing the station to its fullest extent. You can't do everything and clearly in some of that refocusing there would be a little bit of Durham lost in the process.

1775 As I said, we are going to keep the main production centre, the main studio of the radio station in Durham and have this additional input from a studio in Toronto. It's not the first time that it has happened in the market. There have been other situations that the Commission is familiar with. CFNX was run out of Coburg. It has sort of turned around now and is located in Toronto. We don't plan to do that. We are close enough. We are actually within the market, so it's not necessary, but we think we can do the job with how we have planned this out and leaving the main studio there.

1776 I don't think it will be detrimental, in a sense. We will still have a significant enough focus on Durham that we will be able to serve them. What we do will have to evolve the station with this additional coverage because the station has to represent where its main audience is and that is in both area if we get the larger coverage.

1777 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's take a look into the future a bit. Do you have any plans to further extend the reach of CJKX-FM's coverage area by establishing additional rebroadcasting transmitters at other locations?

1778 MR. KIRK: I think we have given you two good ones now. At this point we haven't. We are just in the process of maximizing and developing the one in Sunderland which we just put on the air very recently. So, it will require some development and focus, particularly in the summer when you can go out and attend a lot of events and expose the station.

1779 We have done some advertising in the area to start the ball rolling. It really means going out and touching people where they live, so that project is under way.

1780 We think this project is the most significant for us and we would have our hands full doing that. We can manage it, but I think that's it. So until this proceeding's decision is known we are going to be doing what we are doing. We have some work to do in our own area, but Toronto would be a very major move.

1781 Down the road -- I am always looking. I am never satisfied. Mary will attest to that. I stay up late looking at maps and trying to figure out where things could work better. We won't be totally still on this and we look forward to doing this. We think we could do a terrific job in extending the coverage of CJKX to Toronto and that will keep us busy for the foreseeable future.

1782 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

1783 In your November 3rd deficiency response you indicate that the proposed station would schedule regular news packages, containing news of interest and importance to the residents of the Greater Toronto Area. You also say that CJKX-FM has established a tradition of providing community information in a manner that is specific to the individual areas, reflecting the patchwork of neighbourhoods that make up the GTA, and you commit to establishing a satellite studio, as you spoke about earlier, in downtown Toronto facilitate artist interviews and news programming and to give you an on-the-street presence in Toronto.

1784 Could you describe the operation that you intend to put into place to meet these obligations and to provide a service pertinent to and that meets the unique needs of listeners in the various GTA communities?

1785 MR. KIRK: I will start and I am sure Adrian and Steve can add on and whoever else.

1786 I think we have tried to explain to you how the station has been conceived and how it has been operating in its first roughly five years. That pattern has worked pretty well for us in developing that.

1787 We were facing formidable competition. We still do day to day in the market from all the Toronto spill. The Toronto stations cover Durham. Durham stations don't cover Toronto.

1788 So we have worked at that and that's how we have developed this way of reaching people in the community.

1789 I would ask maybe Steve and Adrian to talk to how that is focused and how the actual station goes out to meet people and how we are covering community events.

1790 MR. KASSAY: Yes, indeed. I just want to point out when Doug says coverage we are talking technical and this is absolutely the reverse for programming. Toronto stations cover Toronto. We are there to provide perspectives. After all, as Doug mentioned, we are part of the GTA.

1791 In terms of the news and I found the place that you are referring, news packages containing news of interest and importance. As I said earlier, it is what we do now in terms of having to include Durham and parts of Toronto, i.e. the area of Scarborough which we do cover. So, we are very experienced in covering the different communities. Right now we do report issues and news of both areas, if you would like to distinguish them as different. However, they are all under our coverage umbrella, so we don't. We don't distinguish them as being different.

1792 In terms of providing community information, we are very active and proud of our success with our road team and our community events service. It has evolved to a point where it now runs year round. It started as a summertime, as most stations do, just a summer cruiser plan, but that didn't last more than a term before we felt the need to go 12 months around the calendar, and we are very active and usually receive more than we can attend. So we try to make more requests than we can physically attend and try to make up the balance with our on-air scheduling of community notes.

1793 The web site proves to be a very powerful tool in being able to at least make available to people things that we perhaps cannot include in daily segments due to sheer volume. So we were one of the first in the area on the net and we continue to learn more about it, seeing as we are all radio folk, not internet folk, but we are slowly becoming internet folk because that seems to be -- the whole world is -- mass communications is heading in a variety of different avenues.

1794 So that's how we reflect news. That's how we attend at community events. Adrian was part of it. Much of what we do as well is the promotion of the music. We are very passionate about the music. We believe in it. Everyone at the station is a country music pro. Everyone on air has worked that format before, many of us for some years in Toronto, dating back to AM radio, much too long ago in Toronto, Fun Country, and in other cities.

1795 So we have a good cross-section of representatives from across mostly the province on air and working in the programming end of things. In terms of our decision process, if an applicant is not passionate or knowledgeable, they too may not be regarded too highly as a proper addition for our staff. You can't fool an audience, that's for sure.

1796 So we have a team of believers and people who know what they do and we're passionate about it. Promoting music is part of what we do. We were so thrilled to be part of Jim's new baby, I am not talking the newborn twins, you haven't slept in weeks have you, but his second album, which was very important to him and very important to us. We need good Canadian music. We need artists that will continue to flourish, aspire, grow and meet their goals, fulfil their dreams. We can't do that unless there's a good process in place in Canada for people to have access to a recording and hence we provide our talent search. It can't happen unless there are radio stations to play the product on the air or the demand just isn't there and hence the story on the Huron Carol, where the room was half empty. What an awful sight looking from the stage down.

1797 Without the awareness we can't generate any excitement. We can't make people knowledgeable about the product and the people making it. Careers are on the line. It's in demand. It's clearly in demand in the Toronto market and in terms of the music we're passionate about it. So it too is very important in reaching out to the community and servicing a need. News and information, yes, community news and involvement and visits, yes, and the music angle.

1798 Country music fans are loyal. I don't know of any other artists that could willingly wander through a group of people just to shake hands and say hi. That's the country music community.

1799 MS VOGEL: I just wanted to add to what Steve said, the relocation of my position, the artist liaison, downtown just doesn't include the studio and me working with artists that come in. In addition to me dealing directly with the artists, there are also the five major record companies which are Toronto based, along with the independent companies.

1800 I am also on a weekly basis in touch with all the major, be it country music or other music trades, Billboard, RPM, The Record, based in Toronto. It's the right thing to do. If this is all I deal with all day and they are all Toronto based, anything I can do to make it a little bit easier to promote a little bit better our move into Toronto, we're ready to do it.

1801 MR. KIRK: I think part of your question as well dealt with the news and how we would evolve the news presence into the market. We committed to adding a reporter downtown who would be responsible for covering happenings in the centre part of Toronto and westward, which could provide stories of interest back to the main studio and to put them on air. That's one way to expand the focus.

1802 Again, it would be prioritized with other stories as to how the news department has to conduct itself, what is most important for your audience, your listeners and the coverage that you are envisioning. So, clearly there would be that additional input directly.

1803 Surveillance information, traffic, we have covered that already. That's available. You could cover Greater Toronto traffic from anywhere in Toronto. There are ways to do it, sources of information. You don't have to be located in Toronto, but as indicated on our coverage we do cover the 401. We cover the 401 and major traffic events to help our listeners and they may not be able to get the signal. But if they are going towards the 427 on the west side or the airport, we can provide them with information, although they may have switched to another station if they are in transit as long as they can get it.

1804 Well, that doesn't have to be expanded dramatically. It has to be expanded to the extent that we have to maybe add a little more focus to the west side of Toronto, but we are covering substantially the Toronto traffic patterns right now, again with emphasis on the east, but it can very easily be accommodated and that can be done with the existing facilities.

1805 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So that my understanding, I was asking about the type of operation you would put in. You are going to have a reporter and an artist liaison in a building downtown in Toronto. Is that what you are going to do?

1806 MR. KIRK: Are you asking about the specific location?

1807 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the question dealt with describing the type of operation that you planned on putting into place, the staff, the facilities. Maybe you can spend a bit of time just saying what exactly are you going to put into downtown Toronto, how many people are going to be there, what are they going to be doing and how will that contribute I guess is the information I am trying to help you give us here.

1808 MR. KIRK: I understand the question. We have made an arrangement with an existing broadcasting entity in Toronto who has excess capacity at this point in their studio and office situation. We have made a deal to actually take one of the excess studios and office space within their complex.

1809 We will be able to put a sign and a brand name up so people can find it. We are going to use that facility as our Toronto base of operations.

1810 It certainly wouldn't be the same scale as the Ajax operation, but it will be there and substantial. Adrian will work out of that office. The reporter will work out of that office. There will be two people assigned specifically on the programming side to do that.

1811 I will just turn it over to Steve Macaulay, and you haven't heard much of Steve yet, but I hope he can speak a bit more as the proceedings go on. Steve will obviously be using this facility, as well as to restructure the sales effort and put some sales presence into the Toronto core. I will turn it over to Steve now.

1812 MR. MACAULAY: We would be looking at hiring probably an additional two sales staff, plus making the office available for the existing sales staff covering Durham and into Scarborough now. Although we have some good tuning in the east part of Toronto currently, our sales don't reflect that as a proportion of the total revenue. Most of it is concentrated in Durham, so it would be quite advantageous to have an office in Toronto as we could beef up our sales and also work a lot more with the agencies and some of the national accounts.

1813 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Good. I think that gives us a good indication of what type of operation you plan on putting in place in Toronto.

1814 MR. KIRK: I'm sorry. You can tell I'm not a radio guy, on air anyway.

1815 Just to fill that out in terms of complement, we currently have 19 full-time people in Ajax at the main station and the initial Toronto office would be four or five full-time people, just to give you a sense of that expansion. It's a significant commitment to fill out that service to add on and incorporate the Toronto market into CJKX.

1816 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Great. Thank you.

1817 The next area we are going to move into and talk a bit about is the best use of the two frequencies, 93.5 and 106.3. As you know, your application is competitive and technically it is mutually exclusive with seven others for the use of 93.5 and 106.3.

1818 In such a situation, the Commission seeks competitors' views to assist it in deciding which applicant has proposed the best use for the requested frequency. What, in your view, are the compelling reasons to grant you the requested frequency and in what ways does your proposal constitute the best use of the proposed frequency? So, why you guys instead of somebody else, basically?

1819 MR. KIRK: I have a feeling you are going to ask everybody this question, so I had better make my case.

1820 What we have said to you this morning I think makes the case for country. It's a very big format, the second-biggest format in the country. You have heard from the artists on how important it is day-to-day that they have an originating station.

1821 Canadian country music has gone worldwide. It is not something that we ask to take second seat to anyone. We have a worldwide class country system here and I don't have to go through the list, but there is a significant list. You saw some of the people on the videos here, Paul Brandt, Terri Clarke, Shania Twain, who have become world class country artists based out of Canada, and that industry is very important and you have to have a country originating station. We have made that case. It's a format demand that's the key to this application. I think that is overwhelming in its reason for wanting the frequency.

1822 We demonstrated there are over 360,000 listeners, that there was a quantifiable audience here that had been basically disenfranchised by format moves in the market, and we want to bring that back and provide the stage for country music to flourish in this market, Canada's largest market and it is getting bigger every day and more important to artists to be able to promote it in the market.

1823 I think that's it. It adds diversity. There aren't any country stations in Toronto. We cover a little corner that others cover, but you see what has happened when you lose that originating station, the tuning evaporates. You have to be there. People have to have that strong signal.

1824 A lot of people in Toronto live in apartment buildings and multi-unit dwellings. You can't get that signal from far away downtown. It just doesn't penetrate in. There is too much noise, so you have got to have that to get into where people live. I mean that's the key reason.

1825 The point is the format is not here. There is no one doing it. We are not trying to add the sixth station serving the ethnic market or the fourth station serving CHR dance, urban, whatever in that format. This is a unique situation. It's one format. It doesn't take away from anyone. We are not going to be fighting others in the market. This is it and I think the benefits are quite clear. That's why we asked for 93.5. 93.5 gives us the tools to do the job better than other frequencies.

1826 One thing too, it's a music-based format. Country isn't music driven, like virtually all of the FMs in Toronto. They are music-based formats and you need FM and strong FM signals to carry that off.

1827 We are targeting a very tight market here. The City of Toronto, Mississagua, Brampton fill out the service of country music in the GTA. This will do the job.

1828 I was aware that there are lots of competitors. There is a long list here. I think there are more people applying for these frequencies than there were in 1980 whatever or 1990 or 1997 and we have been observing this for a while, so this is a very crowded room and a lot of applications. So, I don't envy your task in trying to sort all these out.

1829 But our approach here has been to be very clear, it's a very unique format, a very big format, a very big opportunity for the Commission to add something to this market. It was a format that was granted in the market before and for business reasons and strategic reasons that was moved in the last year to -- the country format disappeared for specific reasons of strategy.

1830 However, I don't think that has diminished the impact or the appeal of the format in the market and that's why we want the larger frequency.

1831 However, keeping that in mind, we can also see a very major benefit from using 106.3, but clearly our clear, clear indication to you is that 93.5 is the frequency to do the job, to do the best job and the biggest job for what we are proposing. 106.3 would be an assistance and it would help in the market and we don't want to diminish the impact of that. 106.3 is better than nothing, but 93.5 is our clear preference.

1832 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That raises a couple of questions in other technical options. Have you looked at options that may be available on the AM band, specifically we would like you to comment on the technical feasibility of expansion on the AM dial to the recently expanded portion of the band to a new frequency located say between 1605 and 1700 kHz, and would the use of another FM frequency between 535 to 1600 achieve the same objective as you propose in this application?

1833 MR. KIRK: How long have we got?

1834 Let's talk about the technical side of it. We have a very good consulting engineer. You may know his name. His name is Wayne Stacey in Ottawa, who has done our work since day one and has been instrumental in achieving a number of improvements against very tough technical challenges to get us where we are.

1835 I had Wayne look at the Toronto market. He did the technical briefs, as you know. His name is on the diagrams here. I asked him a question prior to the hearing, I said, "Wayne, here we are, we are going in. This is the very last, last, last Toronto frequency." I said, "I know you can pull rabbits out of the hat, but is there anything out there that you could see on the FM band in Toronto?"

1836 He said, "Well, I've been around this a while. I have looked very hard and there is beyond 93.5 and 106.3 or 106.5," the way it has been proposed, they are mutually exclusive and I think 106.5 has a lot of issues attached to that because it can experience severe co-channel and that's why we didn't look at it. There is a station in Buffalo, New York which I think will cause any use of 106.5 to be just horrendously impaired because it doesn't look like the way it comes out on the map. There is a thing called Lake Ontario there and the signals come across and will cause 106.5 interference. So we didn't look at that. We looked at 106.4 and 93.5.

1837 So those are it in terms of FM, unless there is some change in Industry Canada's spacing requirements, but even that, I asked Wayne and I said, "Well, even if they did that and allowed more third adjacenties -- in other words, closer packing of stations together," and he said, "I don't think there's much left that would be useful."

1838 So regarding FM, I think and maybe I am being a little bit brash, but I think these are the last FMs in Toronto. You heard it here.

1839 Well, what about the AM band? I agree there are some slots. I am aware that you could use, other than 740 which has been vacated, you could use 1610 is available in this market or 1670. These were new allocations that were left in the expansion of the AM band from 1600 to 1700.

1840 People have been reluctant to apply for those. I will give you our rationale why and maybe it's an opportunity, but I think what we are dealing with is a music-driven format and the Commission is well aware and we showed it on our description of the AM radio map in Toronto where there is basically just one music format left here and that's Oldies 1050 CHUM. It is the only music-driven station left on the AM side of the dial.

1841 There have been numerous AM formats migrate to 680 News, to the Fan which is a sports and talk based format, to Top 640. These were previously music-based stations that have migrated to talk format because of the characteristics of AM.

1842 There is a perception out there and as the population has had more time with FM, this has developed, at least the way we see the business, music is on FM. Talk and other stuff, sports, is on AM, information and news.

1843 Part of that has been a technical issue with radio manufacturers and the quality of AM sets weren't very good. In-car AM is terrible. AM can still do a job on it, but what has happened is the people have walked. They have walked to FM for music.

1844 CJKX is a country music station, that's why it has to be on FM. That was our rationale, to go for the biggest FM frequency available. That will do the best job.

1845 740 is a big regional station. We rejected 740 in this particular proceeding because 740 has a huge coverage area as applicants have already told you and there will be more I guess later in the week. It's a big regional service.

1846 How do we do country with a big regional service and continue with our plan. You would lose something in that. And, as well, if you put 740 on it would reach market, like Hamilton and it would reach the Barrie market and the Peterborough market where there are existing country stations and we'd start to mow their lawn. You would start to split the audience and we didn't think that was a very good thing to do, to take a big regional service and disrupt other markets where they are trying to do a good job for country music and their market and then to face the new competitor didn't seem to make a lot of sense to us.

1847 I guess in the ultimate, to be totally honest, frank, if there were nothing else left you could develop 1610 or 1670 in Toronto as an AM. It would be a lot more costly. It wouldn't work as well for the country music format. There hasn't been a great adoption of tuning up to the extended AM band between 1600 and 1700 in Canada. I am trying to think if there has actually been a licence awarded in that part of the band. If there is I don't recall it. There haven't been many. I think there is a little part-time licence that was licensed a few years ago and has kind of gone off into the vapour. I haven't heard anything about it since. That was a part-time station on 1610 in this area.

1848 So I mean there are some opportunities there on the extended AM band for Toronto. That's the real opportunity to increase some other services in Toronto but we, quite frankly, didn't think it was appropriate for the FM music based station that CJKX is. It probably had more applicability to some of the other community based formats where you need larger coverage or a focused downtown coverage where a lot of the programming would be public affairs and spoken word type components to it could work well.

1849 So there are opportunities to expand the number of licences in Toronto going forward, but they are I think on the AM band.

1850 I haven't done an extensive search on the AM band. With moves of stations there may be some small drop ins that you could do on the AM band, but they certainly -- other than 1610 and 1670 and 740. You may be able to find a little spot where you could put an AM because there have been AM stations in Canada vacate the band. They have converted and there may be some spots where you could work something in, but I think there are three obvious spots on the AM band for expansion in Toronto.

1851 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for your thoughts on that.

1852 The next area we are moving into deals with Canadian Talent Development. You indicated that if you were to receive a licence for 93.5 you would allocate $100,000 annually for Canadian Talent Development and that if you received a licence for 106.3 you would allocate $10,000 annually for Canadian Talent Development.

1853 Your Option One and Option Two Canadian Talent Development allocations vary substantially. Could you explain the differences between the initiatives in the allocations included in the two options?

1854 I guess just to add a bit more to the question, so you can bring it all out in the same discussion, you indicate that under Option One you would spend $50,000 per year for Canada Day. This could be considered a rather substantial sum. Could you detail how this money would be spent and how much money would be paid to the musicians themselves?

1855 You also indicate under Option One that you would spend $30,000 per year for a talent contest. Would you detail how this would be spent and how much of this money would be paid to the musicians themselves? I can review them quickly if you want, if it would help.

1856 MR. KIRK: No, that's fine. That question is almost as long as my previous answers.

1857 The two options were not done just off the cuff, but the potential with 93.5 is very substantial, as I have indicated to you, and that's the reason why we want it, first.

1858 In doing that we have said, "Well, this gives us a full Toronto exposure. We will have the revenues and we will have the base to ramp up our commitments and that was the rationale for choosing the higher amount. So, we could make a difference in Toronto in highlighting country music.

1859 The concert would be a big event, again this Canada Day thing. It would have to be worked out. At the previous one we had a sense that about that amount was spent on it. Obviously, a portion of that for the artists, a significant portion. We haven't worked out a specific amount that would go to the artists, but it would be a significant amount of the $50,000 shot for the Canada Day.

1860 You can also bring it together with other entities that are willing to sponsor it, parts of it, and go side by side with you to produce the event. So we thought the $50,000 as a single event would bring this big event and I forget if it was Thomas who I think mentioned it previously. It was a very, very big event that disappeared off the map here in Toronto. We want to reinvigorate that whole promotion of country.

1861 So that was the big thing, 93.5 would give you the coverage. We could cover the whole market and that was the reason for putting the bigger commitment on 93.5.

1862 That's not all. We did commit to increase the amounts to Factor and other scholarships. I will ask Steve to talk about the talent contest because he has been intimately involved in our talent contest that we run in Durham, but in total it's a pretty big commitment in our view and we said in the application we would escalate this, increasing it by approximately 10 per cent per year over the period. So we would continue to have the resources as the station grew, but the big signal to continue our support and increase that support for Canadian Talent Development in the market. I think that's the rationale for that.

1863 Just before I turn it over to Steve, the 106.3 option is a much smaller option. It's an enhancement or a fill-in to cover a much smaller area. We think it will give us the ability to make additional sales and we will do whatever we can and potentially if we can work out the right package we will try and resuscitate the Canada Day with the kind of commitments that we have got in the proposal at that level, but we wanted to commit to that so we could at least, without having any hesitation, be able to commit and do what we say on those commitments.

1864 These commitments, certainly with 93.5 in terms of the Factor formula that is applied directly to Canadian Talent Development is about quadruple the base level that the Toronto stations pay, so it's not an insignificant commitment. I think we have focused on a couple of key initiatives here that can highlight the whole country scene.

1865 I would like Steve to talk for a couple of minutes on the talent development which he has had first hand experience with for several years.

1866 MR. KASSAY: Just before I do, just to make you fully aware of the impact of the concerts and how it affects all of us, I would like you to hear comments from Beverley first.

1867 MS MAHOOD: As an artist, if you don't get the support from the radio station you don't achieve fans, which means you don't achieve record sales and you don't stimulate revenue for yourself as an artist, an independent artist. We stimulate sometimes the money for our records through Factor which is a government grant we get.

1868 It is nice to play in your hometown and show that when you get that Factor grant that you can actually show them what your talent is and what you can provide. It's just sad that you can't get a gig in your hometown, you can't come back to your hometown and play, you have to go elsewhere.

1869 MR. KASSAY: And before people get to this stage, where it is competitive and trying and oft times difficult due to the business climate, which is what we heard her talk about in terms of their development, is the stage prior to and that's the real development of Canadian talent, the push that some artists need. I should say the push people need or want just to simply call themselves artists and get the ball rolling. That's what our talent contest is all about.

1870 It has been a success for years now. It is ever growing it seems and the difference between Option One and Option Two and first I should explain what it's all about, it is indeed sponsored solely by the radio station, a partner that provides the venue, a club, and a third partner, a recording studio run by professionals for professionals. It is where we often bump into the likes of Thomas and these people are used as the musicians. That's part of their work as well is playing on other people's material.

1871 The Cradle to Rave studios is our partner. They are based in Oshawa. It's first class, run by a former musician, a manager, promoter and we promote the contest and invite people to enter, it's as simple as that and the list gets longer every year. We extend it a little bit longer every year.

1872 The difference between Option One and Option Two, the prizes we offer, this year for instance, was a two-song master. That is, full recording of a song. If you are familiar with the recording process, you get to pick a song. Not only do you get to pick any song. You are provided with a library of songs to choose from, which is one of the advantages of having a studio. They have their fingers and arms all the way down to songwriters at that level in and out of the country. They get to choose the song, have it recorded by professional musicians, have it mastered properly, have it recorded properly, get a very professional recording done.

1873 So much so, we promise that the winner and their two-song master receives airplay on KX-96, highlighted as the winning contestant, not just mixed in with everyone else, so people know it can be achieved, people know what we offer and what they can win.

1874 This year it was a two-song master. These are radio ready. Ready to send out across the country, get the proper licensing and off they go. It's a terrific kick start to get a wannabe artist into having a CD in their hands and CDs distributed across the country. Getting it on the air is another process, but that's certainly a full step ahead.

1875 Second prize is a one-song demo. Third prize does not involve recordings.

1876 With Option One and the coverage we would have and the response we anticipate, based on the overwhelming response we get currently, we would have to offer bigger and more substantial prizes, more than two. The costs would be greater. It could be a three or four song package. That cost would be greater. We would award four or five contestants, I would imagine, to make it a longer list with those prizes and that does cost money.

1877 We have taken people like Amanda Lee from a restaurant in Port Perry to the airwaves of KX-96. She thinks it's terrific. She now has a manager, an agent, recordings and is off and on her way at a very young age. There are success stories and we would like to be part of them.

1878 With Option One the coverage would be greater, the contests will be bigger, the costs will be greater. That's background on the contest and how it works.

1879 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for that background.

1880 I have a couple more specific questions now. In your financial projections under Option One for the 93.5 frequency you indicate a first-year allocation for Canadian Talent Development of $110,000, increasing to $164,780 in year five. Could you clarify the difference with the $100,000 CTD allocation under the figure you indicate in your application and then with your deficiency response under Option One?

1881 MR. KIRK: The difference there in the expenditure versus the commitment is what we actually expect to spend. We have CTD programs, that Cradle to Rave program on now. That's an existing commitment on the radio station, so the combined projection includes the new commitment plus the old commitment.

1882 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

1883 Could you confirm that you would be willing to accept the proposed annual Canadian Talent Development allocation for a seven year licence term?

1884 MR. KIRK: Yes, we would

1885 Are you specifying the $100,000 level in Option One, just to clarify that and the $10,000 commitment in Option Two?

1886 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.

1887 MR. KIRK: We would accept that as a condition.

1888 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your projections arguably, I guess, could be conceived as being somewhat conservative. This new retransmitter could conceivably exceed projected advertising revenues. Should this scenario occur it could have an impact on existing Toronto stations. I guess specifically in year five of the proposed broadcasting period, the proposed advertising revenues of your new transmitter are about 22 per cent under Option One and 12 under Option Two of the average advertising revenues earned in 1998 by the 11 existing Toronto FM stations.

1889 At first look these revenues appear to be modest, as I said, and perhaps you could exceed them. Can you elaborate on the assumptions used in your projections? Two, would you qualify these projections as conservative and, three, as the only country formatted station operating in Toronto and given the greater commercial potential of both of your existing station and of a new retransmitter in Canada's largest market could you exceed these projections and comment maybe on the impact on other stations?

1890 I guess we want to hear about your assumptions. Do you think they are conservative? What's the impact on other stations and could you exceed your budget?

1891 MR. KIRK: There were quite a few questions there, so I will work through them and just jog my memory if I miss some.

1892 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the last four, if there is any consolation and after you have answered those questions I will be giving a brief opportunity, three to five minutes, to sum up your application as best you can. So I will let you get on with the financial questions.

1893 MR. KIRK: Thank you.

1894 First of all, we like to try and build the business over a long period of time. We have shown that commitment with CJKX and I can assure you that it wasn't easy for the first couple of years in taking the station from an unwound AM and building it essentially from scratch. I think if you talked to some of the people at the time I think we were down in the -- it wasn't at zero. It was negative because of the momentum that had unwound in the market because radio hadn't worked for clients.

1895 We had to build that up. So we generally approach new situations and knowing what we could do. As you can see, the share numbers start at 2 per cent. There is a lag in converting audience to revenue. You have to build it up. Steve Macaulay will talk to it and some of the ways that we can see of building revenue.

1896 We have tried to approach this in, as I say, a conservative manner because we don't want to go over and extend too much and be in trouble, so we build this in a very conservative manner. We have done that in five years with CJKX. It has become a successful radio station. We want to take it through the next step, so we are not going to over commit, nor be too enthusiastic out of the gate.

1897 We know the realities. We have worked in this market. It's tough in Toronto. There are a lot of radio operators out there. We have got to carve out a new position. That position was abandoned a year ago. We have got to go and restart it and it takes time to do that. We have used what I would say is a realistic, but conservative ramp up.

1898 Starting with a 2 per cent share, we think we can start with an incremental revenue here of around $1.5 million and support the kind of expenditures, the incremental expenditures that we gave to the Commission in the projections.

1899 In that are substantial additional programming initiatives to start the Toronto studio, additional Canadian Talent Development expenditures and particularly promotion. With 93.5 we have budgeted in $600,000 in that first year to get to rebuild, to restart the awareness of an originating country station in the market. It takes time. It doesn't happen in one minute or one hour. It takes time to build these things up.

1900 I mean that's it and we can manage that and these expectations. With a two share to start, depending on when you get the station on the air, you may be several months between getting a rating book and that won't translate. Steve will tell you what it's like selling without numbers to agencies. It's almost an impossible task. So you have got to build the revenue up.

1901 I think we have done that in a prudent way, a very conservative way, so the station if it goes on the air will not miss its target.

1902 You mentioned is there an upside in the target? I think there potentially could be an upside, but we don't want to bet the station on the upside target and find ourselves if that falls short we are in trouble and can't fulfil our commitment. So it has been built on that plane with a two or three share. You might exceed $2 million or $3 million in the market over time. I think that is possible, but we have built it in such a way that I think these are very achievable. We have tailored the commitment to be there, significant and doable through the whole piece.

1903 106.3, just to comment on it, it has a much smaller signal. It has I think a significantly smaller chance of getting a big share in Toronto and the sales process without rateable Toronto numbers on the national side is quite difficult.

1904 I would ask Steve to make some comments on what it would be like in evolving this from our current operation, which is focused on primarily retail accounts, into the new signal area.

1905 MR. MACAULAY: Part of our problem has been the spill from the Toronto stations into the Durham region and it has put us in a position different from let's say other markets like Barrie, Guelph and Peterborough, where they do get their fair share of national dollars. Up until now it has been a point where if they are buying Toronto radio, certainly four or five stations on the buy, they don't have a need to buy an originating station in our market to top up the buy to reach their objectives.

1906 So, as a result, a lot of the retailers' money in the Durham region is pouring into the Toronto radio stations. So that's having an effect on our revenue.

1907 With a signal into Toronto, where currently about a third of our audience is in the Toronto CMA because of an overlap with Pickering, Ajax and Uxbridge, we are not getting out fair share of revenue out of that portion of our listenership coverage area.

1908 With a lot more strength in the Toronto BBMs, if you will, it will give us a lot more clout and the agencies will certainly be able to justify to their clients of putting us on a buy where they hadn't put us there before.

1909 In conversations with several media buyers in Toronto, they would welcome the opportunity to purchase a station with a country format, especially since you consider the duplication is very low amongst the other current stations that are quite strong in the 25 to 54 age group. So they have shown that they would be very supportive and would certainly pay the going rates.

1910 MR. KIRK: Have I missed part four?

1911 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would mainly deal with in the event you exceeded your projections what would be the impact on the other stations, if you would care to comment on that?

1912 MR. KIRK: I am sorry, I apologize for that.

1913 I think at the beginning of the presentation we spoke to the size of the market and how big it is, the kind of growth that has gone on. Toronto added about 15 million -- I don't have the data right at hand, but the Commission knows that. It was Commission data. But the market has been growing. It added about $15 million.

1914 Even if we, say, doubled our revenue take from market, that would represent about a quarter to a third of the growth that is evidenced in the market recently and with the way this Greater Toronto Area is continuing to grow, I think this station could enter the market and generate those additional dollars.

1915 In fact, as Steve was mentioning, there are some accounts that might come on the air that haven't been using radio because they are targeted at this particular audience. They haven't had a vehicle. They have moved to the sidelines.

1916 In our view, given the size of the market, we are not going to cause anyone any impairment.

1917 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much for your presentation on country music. I live in Edmonton now and from the information that is provided country seems to be quite successful there.

1918 I guess what we will do now in our process, I am going to turn the meeting back to Chairperson Wylie and she will continue on.

1919 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you are given an opportunity to conclude, counsel has a few questions. But, Mr. Macaulay, your comments reminded me of a hearing we had in December where you were, Mr. Kirk, and where a map was put before us and Mr. Evanov's colleague from CKMW suggested that what was wrong with this was it should be turned around, so that Orangeville and Brampton stations beamed into Toronto, rather than Toronto stations into Orangeville and Brampton.

1920 Considering how flattering it is to suggest that, us four Commissioners would have the power to do that, I am surprised you didn't suggest that we should move Toronto a bit east towards Ajax.

1921 MR. KIRK: It's already doing that right now, Madam Chair, and has been growing.

1922 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then you would beam into Toronto without technical convolutions.

1923 I have one question before I deliver you to counsel. I find it interesting that when applicants are asked what impact their revenue is likely, the revenue they will take out of the market if it is a new application or an extension, the impact they may have on other broadcasters and the answer is always the market in Toronto is huge and they give the amount. Then they calculate their revenues or even, as you just did, they double it in case they were too conservative and they say that's a minute proportion of the market, how can I possibly have an impact on anyone?

1924 But is that really how it works? Depending on your format or your demographic or how you skew your programming, it's not the entire market that may be affected. It could be pinpointed to stations, could it not? I find the answer unsatisfactory, unless you can explain to me that it makes sense because I can't just take their revenues and divide them by reference to the entire market or anyone else's revenue and say it's a minimal amount. You are not going to compete with the entire market, but possibly with some particular stations and then the pie against which I calculate the effect is smaller and, therefore, may give a greater impact number.

1925 MR. KIRK: Well, we certainly want our position to make sense to you, so we will try and explain it.

1926 THE CHAIRPERSON: Pardon me, I didn't hear you.

1927 MR. KIRK: I said we would certainly want our position to make sense to you, so let's try and explain that.

1928 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does it make sense to calculate in a city the size of Toronto where there are so many stations and, of course, the ethnic broadcasters are right on because they can't say the entire market if they are transmitting in Italian or Portuguese or Chinese, but to a certain extent or a lesser one the impact you may have will vary depending and by you I mean the impact one can have will vary depending on one's pitch.

1929 MR. KIRK: I think I understand your point. As it relates to specific ethnic broadcasters the pool would be probably more distinct.

1930 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was an illustration of my logic. It's not related to your case.

1931 MR. KIRK: And looking at those they would have to deal within that pool.

1932 The point we are making to you is that country music and the demographics that are concerned are mainstream. It participates in the larger pool. I think you have to make distinctions between applicants that come in and are targeted at a very narrow or niche part of the market and the larger part of the market which is the national advertising pool, the larger retail accounts that are in that pool and that has been growing dramatically in Toronto.

1933 I want Steve to speak to it. He has worked certainly at CJKX now for five years and has worked in the national business in Toronto and I think can explain those differences and why. I know what you are saying, and if you can disguise this little niche coming out of this big pool, everyone will come to you with the same argument and say it is not going to matter to anyone and we should at least be able to --

1934 THE CHAIRPERSON: The only time they make the distinction is when it is going to affect them.

1935 MR. MACAULAY: First of all, I guess something that tends to happen a lot in Toronto radio is when the top four or five FM stations are sold out an agency buyer can no longer achieve their objectives, so they decide to scrap radio all together and put the money into another medium. So the radio industry, the radio market in Toronto loses.

1936 By having another viable alternative, such as a country format, it opens up another door for them to possibly achieve their objectives and the money not fizzle into another medium.

1937 Second of all, when CISS was on the air as a country format they prided themselves in getting an awful lot of direct retail business that other stations didn't bother chasing because about 95 per cent of the other stations were dealing primarily with revenue from the advertising agencies. So they had quite a large sum of dollars coming in that were at the direct level, something that we could continue to do as well and we are certainly a lot more affordable than most of the Toronto stations. Your single outlet mom and pop operations cannot afford Toronto stations to begin with, so we really wouldn't be taking revenue away from them in that respect.

1938 There is also a lot of accounts that relate directly to the format, such as a Wild Rose Saloon that is currently located out by the airport as a country bar, and because of our inefficient signal in their area they have chosen to buy a country format outside the market totally and to the west of Toronto. So there are a lot of other opportunities for us to gain increases in revenue without cutting into the traditional flow of dollars from the agencies.

1939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.

1940 Counsel.

1941 MR. RHEAUME: Just very briefly, and thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1942 Very briefly, one clarification and maybe you have answered this already. Canadian Talent Development, how much of this which you have in your application is new money compared to what you are doing currently?

1943 MR. KIRK: The commitment of new money is the $100,000 a year in Option A, which will escalate over the period and the $10,000 in Option B would be new, new commitment.

1944 MR. RHEAUME: So if we take Option A, how much new money over five years?

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1945 MR. RHEAUME: ...how much is spent currently and how much is add on?

1946 MR. KIRK: So if we committed to an additional $100,000 commitment, increased by 10 per cent per year, over that period and, as I said, we would take a seven-year commitment on the --

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1947 MR. KIRK: In Option 2, $10,000 of additional commitment escalated at the same rate and we would take that through seven years as well. I hope that will make it clear.

1948 MR. RHEAUME: Thank you.

1949 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

1950 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, counsel.

1951 There is your five minutes now, Mr. Kirk, and I hope that after this hearing you and Mr. Evanov will get together and discuss with Mr. Lastman, the Mayor of Toronto, which way we move the city.

1952 MR. KIRK: I guess it's moving everywhere, but at the centre.

1953 Anyway, we would like to just spend -- I know we have spent two and a bit hours here, but we would just like to highlight a few things.

1954 I would sort of recap our points here. I think we have been chewed at the seams that there is a significant demand for country music in Toronto. It has been disenfranchised over the last year and we propose to reinvigorate and fill that void in the market.

1955 I think by licensing our application you are adding a new competitive player into the Toronto market. We are not associated with anyone else. We don't have money commitments from other Toronto broadcasters as part of our application. What you see is what you get here. We are an independent company. This is a very significant opportunity for us in a good format.

1956 So we will improve the competitive situation. It will bring a player into the market which is -- the market is able to support additional radio service and I think we can become a strong player in that market.

1957 As we have talked about, we are an independent operator and will add diversity in terms of not only another news voice serving Toronto, but as we explained to you, adding diversity with a new -- with a different perspective, highlighting some of the emphasis to the east into the centre and the larger market. Mr. Evanov will likely do that from the west. I will leave that up to him.

1958 I guess most importantly, it will provide significant benefits here to the growth and promotion and development of Canadian country music talent. I would like to just turn it back for a minute or so to Jerry Archer and our artist for a comment.

1959 MR. ARCHER: Thank you, Doug. As I mentioned earlier, I can speak to the experience that I have had in the country music business for ten years now. A good deal of that time was spent in the Toronto market, so I saw that how having a signal in the Toronto market can create some excitement in the city, as the artists have spoken to, and someone such as Jim Witter sitting to my left here.

1960 Jim was with us ten years ago as part of a country format. Jim is still here. He's still making a living at it. He needs a signal in Toronto to do that, as Beverley has stated as well. Maybe we could pass it to Beverley to say a few words.

1961 MS MAHOOD: I just have to say that a year ago I had a favourite radio station right in downtown Toronto. As a listener and a fan and an artist, that was the station I listened to. How devastating it was to listen to that station all day and come out of a basketball game, a charity basketball game, and go "Where is it? It's not here any more". It was devastating.

1962 I just want to say that country music is here. It is here in Toronto. We are here as three artists and live in Toronto and want to hear our music again.

1963 MR. WADE: Yes. As I said before, I live in Toronto and I do business in Toronto and I meet people all the time who recognize me. In fact, my little boy's Kindergarten teacher was shocked to find out that I was "The Thomas Wade". She wanted to know where she could listen to my music. That's the refrain. People are starting to pick up little snips of country music all around the area, but nobody can listen to country music and I think we need it.

1964 Thank you.

1965 MR. WITTER: I think one of the main ways we earn income in this country is by live performance. I personally developed a pretty darn good audience I thought in the Toronto area as the years grew on. I just noticed that as soon as country music was gone from the area that that audience completely disappeared.

1966 I have a new record out. It's very important for me for my new records as well as for my old records to be played so that I can continue to develop that audience.

1967 Thank you.

1968 MR. KASSAY: I hope we proved to you today, and I trust we have communicated to you that we are not only passionate about radio but passionate about this format. There is a large unserved audience in Toronto and our industry in Toronto, in Canada's biggest city, is at risk we feel and we would like to change that. We need this licence to keep it alive.

1969 MR. KIRK: I think our proposal -- I know you will hear a lot this week, the 15 or 16 people, everybody has got the right answer. I think ours though, when you look at the size of the audience, it certainly is proven history in the market and the type of impact it can have on artists and development of Canadian talent merits your consideration.

1970 We would be absolutely delighted and thankful for the award of this licence and will do the job.

1971 Thank you.

1972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kirk, ladies and gentlemen. We will now take a 15 minute break, so we will be back at 20 to 12 to at least begin hearing the next application.

1973 Alors nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.

--- Recess at 1124 / Suspension à 1124

--- Upon resuming at 1145 / Reprise à 1145

1974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

1975 MR. CUSSONS: This is an application by CKMW Radio Limited for a broadcasting licence to carry on an English language FM radio programming undertaking at Toronto. The news station would operate on frequency 93.5 MHz (channel 228A) with an effective radiated power of 253 watts.

1976 The applicant is proposing a station to be called Rainbow Radio. It is designed to serve the needs of the gay community in the area.

1977 The Commission notes that this application is technically mutually exclusive with other applications scheduled at this hearing for the use of the 93.5 MHz frequency.

1978 The applicant also holds licences for CIAO Brampton and CIDC-FM Orangeville, Ontario.

1979 I will now invite Mr. Bill Evanov to introduce his panel.

1980 Mr. Evanov.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1981 MR. EVANOV: Thank you. Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, before we begin our presentation I would like to introduce the members of our Rainbow Radio panel.

1982 My name is Bill Evanov, President, CKMW Radio Limited. To my left is Carmela Larignano, General Manager of the Rainbow Radio project and Vice-President, Station Manager of CIAO and CIDC-FM. Her management and programming expertise have been a guiding force in the development of Rainbow Radio.

1983 To her left is Bob Linney, President of Q2 Communications, the consulting firm that has been involved in the development of this project and coordinated the market research for Rainbow Radio. He is no stranger to innovative broadcasting. Most recently he was involved in establishing All News Radio in Montreal. His company was also involved in the design and creation of the Aboriginal People Television Network, APTN, Headline Sports and the bilingual operations of The Weather Network.

1984 To his left is sociologist and professor of criminology at the University of Toronto, Marianna Valverde. Professor Valverde is a key adviser for this project, a published author, a recognized academic leader in the country, an expert witness in landmark sexual orientation. Marianna has been instrumental in furthering our understanding of the issues facing the gay population and in directing her efforts to meet the needs of the community.

1985 Seated behind me at our table is a Director of our company and Comptroller, Michael Kilbride.

1986 Next to Michael Kilbride, to his left, is Ky Lein from our Sales Department and designated Sales Manager of Rainbow Radio. Ms Lein provided expertise on the state of the radio market in Toronto and is here to answer questions you might have on the revenue potential of Rainbow Radio.

1987 To her left is Keith Maidment, a full time Toronto fighter who is our community liaison officer, has devoted six months getting Radio Rainbow to this point.

1988 To his left is Ruby Hamilton, a member of the Rainbow Advisory Committee and the President of a group very much involved in Toronto's gay community, a group called PPFLAG or the Parents, Families, Friends of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexual and Transgenders, representing 75,000 households.

1989 In addition to the development team, we have present in the audience several members of the Rainbow Radio Advisory Committee, and I would like Carmela to take a moment to introduce each of them.

1990 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you. I would ask that each member of the advisory committee stand as I call his or her name.

1991 In addition to Mrs. Hamilton, seated on our panel we have with us today Bonza Minima, Adrienne Sovoro, George Smitherman, Andrew Chang, Steve Solomon. Unfortunately, due to previous commitments, other members who could not be with us today are Daniel Paquette, Andrew Fedesov, Senior Pastor Reverent Brent Hawke, David Snoddy and Mark Tewkesbury, who is an Olympic gold medalist, and Billy Newton Davis as well who is a three time Juno Award winner.

1992 We will begin our presentation now.

1993 Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, these are the team members who have developed the concept and prepared the application for Rainbow Radio.

1994 Before we proceed with the formal presentation, just one more thing. Throughout the next 20 minutes there will be several references to the gay community. This description encompasses the entire community and includes groups also defined as homosexuals, gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender. For the interest of brevity, we will use the word "gay" to encompass all that I have said.

1995 Our application is for a radio station with a format the Commission usually refers to as full service. It has been designed to provide a new, innovative use of radio. We believe Rainbow Radio will be a service that will complement all other Toronto media providing a valuable link to a specific cultural community while simultaneously providing an electronic bridge between the gay community and the general population.

1996 Rainbow Radio will be the first of its kind in North America. Toronto's gay community is currently served only by periodic talk shows on radio and television, a sum total of 4.5 hours per week. In approving our application for use of 93.5, the Commission would be introducing true diversity into Toronto radio. It would be approval of an exciting new use of the medium and it will represent a unique opportunity to open a two way avenue for information, understanding and respect between the Toronto population and the gay community.

1997 I will ask Professor Valverde to explain the context of the gay community and the significance of broadcasting the unique gay perspective.

1998 MS VALVERDE: Homosexual activity has taken place throughout history and it takes place around the globe. However, there is a relatively new social process that is specific to some times and places with Toronto being one of those, the formation of gay and lesbian communities.

1999 Since the 1970s, the gay community has developed in the Toronto area. The most visual manifestation of this is the annual Gay Pride Celebration in late June that draws somewhere near three quarters of a million people to the area of this city known as the Gay Village.

2000 Toronto has become a destination both for short term visits and for migration from small towns. Even though it is easier to be openly gay in Toronto, nevertheless many people find it difficult to be open, something which among other things means that any surveys or other instruments for measuring the size of the community are bound to underestimate.

2001 The gay community, like other cultural communities, did not develop without effort and, in some cases, real heroism. Activists who fought legal battles for equal rights, supported by some enlightened heterosexuals, are not the only characters in this story, although they may be the best known.

2002 There have been many less high profile individuals and organizations who have set up philanthropic groups, self help organizations, newspapers, sports clubs, churches and so forth.

2003 By the end of the 20th century, Toronto has come to be recognized internationally as having a lively gay community that is not only large, but unusually diverse, just like the city in general. It's diverse in terms of culture, ethnicity and so forth.

2004 Sociologists who study communities have outlined three dimensions along which communities develop; cultural activities, political groups and philanthropic and self help organizations. On all three of these criteria, Toronto's gay community fits the textbook definition.

2005 This culture or community has not always been welcome with open arms, however. Homophobia persists as seen in some of the letters sent to the CRTC opposing this application. This means it is not easy for issues of concern to the community to be aired in the regular media.

2006 I have been a guest on radio shows and TV shows on issues of sexual orientation and have been amazed to see the way in which openly hateful language is tolerated. This, in my view, justifies the present application.

2007 MR. LINNEY: I would like to emphasize another key point in our presentation. This is not an application for a gay radio station. Rather, it's a radio service that is gay friendly. The service is designed not just to serve the needs and interests of the gay community, but to serve as a bridge between various cultures and communities in Toronto and to be a positive model within Canada's broadcast infrastructure.

2008 To develop the concept for a new signal, we commissioned three independent research studies. The goals were threefold. We wanted to determine the group or groups in the population who were underserved. We wanted to determine what programming schedule would fill their needs and. finally, test the consumer demand for our idea.

2009 The notion of Rainbow Radio was born when it was identified the ideal coverage for 93.5 FM frequency was concentrated in the downtown Toronto core market. Once we had the concept, our second step was to develop a program schedule. We consulted programmers and the members of our advisory committee and commissioned focus groups within the gay community to discuss our proposal and elicit feedback.

2010 The input from the groups was incorporated into our design and we went to market with a telephone survey to test our proposal with both the gay community and the general population. When we had a sense of the audience for Rainbow Radio, we tested our proposal within the advertising community, both national and retail. Now I would like to share some of the research findings with you.

2011 What we discovered in the focus groups is that Toronto's gay community will not look at Rainbow Radio as a media ghetto. The consensus was the gay community has unique issues, events and experiences that are not addressed by existing broadcasters and this station can respond to them all and respond on a local basis.

2012 The concept of a full service station offering a variety of music formats throughout the week was also well received. One of the key findings is that without exception, all of the participants were aware of individual programs or single hours of music that are scattered across the broadcast week on a variety of existing stations. In other words, they were tuning specific programs.

2013 The reason for the select dialling is these programs met in part either their need for information on what we call the community or provided a music preference they couldn't find elsewhere.

2014 Appointment tuning is common among our target audience, so the idea of scheduling blocks of time for either talks and music was enthusiastically endorsed.

2015 MS LAURIGNANO: The focus groups also provided a further insight on developing programming. SM has traditionally been a music medium, but the research shows its talk components of Rainbow Radio will be a vital part of serving our target audience. That is the very crux of this proposal and to explain the significance of it to the community, I would like to use their own words as stated in one of our focus groups. I quote:

2016 Education, therefore, is a major programming goal for Rainbow Radio. The opportunity to shed light on the misconceptions, misunderstandings and apprehensions surrounding the gay community will be one of the most important and tangible benefits provided by this service.

2017 MR. LINNEY: Our telephone survey included more than 900 respondents and more than half identified themselves as members of Toronto's gay community. Among the conclusions, the satisfaction with existing Toronto radio services is notably less among gay listeners. Seventy-five per cent said Toronto radio does not meet the needs of the gay community.

2018 The majority of gay respondents, 80 per cent, also said they would definitely or probably listen to Rainbow Radio. Only 26 per cent of the general population said they would never listen, which we believe lends support to the concept of a radio station bridging the gap between communities.

2019 The research also identified distinct differences in the music preferences of the gay community and the general population. It was clear the music in the Rainbow Radio programming mix would have to be a wide selection. The top musical preferences in the research were for contemporary vocals, pop and Broadway or show tunes.

2020 MS LAURIGNANO: Research is just one of the resources we have used in the development of Rainbow Radio. We want to make sure the station not only serves the needs of the gay community, but also that it will provide a bridge of understanding with the community at large.

2021 To help make sure we meet those two major objectives, we have created an advisory committee of up to 20 community leaders and members, some of whom you have met today. The committee has a specific mandate to do two things: provide guidance for programmers and to help explain the role of Rainbow Radio to the general Toronto community, including managing any complaints or concerns expressed by any listeners or radio users.

2022 The advisory committee has a clearly defined role, outlined by the constitution attached to this presentation. Rainbow Radio's overall programming guidelines have also been attached as reference. Copies have been made available in the media room for the general public and for all other applicants to review.

2023 The Chair of the committee will be the General Manager of Rainbow Radio. As required by the Broadcasting Act, it is only Rainbow Radio as a licence holder that will always be responsible for the on air programming, working with the inside comments and recommendations of the advisory committee.

2024 Ruby Hamilton is one of those founding members of the Rainbow Radio advisory committee who can speak on its behalf about both the potential for the service and the personal significance of this opportunity.

2025 MS HAMILTON: Good morning. My name is Ruby Hamilton and I am the mother of a gay son. I am also the President of PPFLAG Toronto, which is the acronym for Parents, Families and Friends of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders. I take the phone calls from distressed parents or often from the children of all ages who are also in distress.

2026 Sometimes these calls can be a matter of life and death since many of our children commit suicide. Some have bullied, taunted and, yes, even beaten to death. One of our reasons for being on the advisory committee is to help people like the mother who phoned recently. I advised her to read the book "Now That You Know". Her reply to me was she doesn't read English. This happens very often. How frustrating it is to all our members and me when this is the answer. Radio is obviously the solution.

2027 In this changing wonderful city of mine, there is such beautiful diversity and I welcome it, but how can we help? When our group heard about Radio Rainbow, the uses for having such a station spilled out of my mind. How different it would have been for me when my husband and I discovered our 18 year old son was gay. Imagine having a radio station that you could turn to that didn't disparage your child, that could help to educate you about what it means to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, a station that would have positive things to say to and about your child.

2028 We need Rainbow Radio on 93.5 FM. We could say to these new parents "Turn on the radio to this station and it will help you to understand and accept your child".

2029 We hope the Commission decides to take this action to give Toronto the positive message that we are all equal and we have respect for all. Three of the benefits I think of right now are, one, it would help parents to understand and accept their child; two, it would help les-bi-gay people to validate who they are and that it is okay. It would benefit mainstream society by giving them a better understanding of who we are and there would be fewer throw-away kids on our streets.

2030 I am pleased to be asked to serve on the advisory committee and to promote the service that Rainbow Radio can provide. A favourable response to our request for this licence would show our city and the rest of our country that we are moving forward toward a society that is healthy and respectful of human dignity.

2031 MR. MAIDMENT: One of the key ingredients to our proposed service is the very nature of Toronto's gay community. As the third largest community in North America, it is an economically and socially dynamic culture within Toronto's society and it is the community that would be strengthened by a unique service like Rainbow Radio.

2032 There is a clear demand for Rainbow Radio. On file with the Commission is a petition with more than 5,000 names. More than 200 individuals, community groups, companies and organizations have written letters of support.

2033 I am a professional fire fighter who has been active in the gay community for 15 years. I wanted to be involved in Rainbow Radio because I see the incredible potential benefit for Toronto's gay community. Through my role as community liaison officer, I have made contact with dozens of governmental agencies and departments, corporations, volunteers and associations involved in the community, making sure that each had an opportunity to be involved in this project.

2034 There is indeed grassroots support. This support is illustrated by letters of support sent to the Commission from dozens of groups that include Crime Stoppers, the True Spirited People of First Nations, the Evencia Italo Canadian Organization, Long Yang Club, Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention, the Chief of Police Duznett, federal, provincial and local politicians, interested individuals from around the world.

2035 There is no doubt that because of its innovative nature, Rainbow Radio has attracted international attention and support.

2036 Like every community, the gay community has an infrastructure which includes a set of businesses and services designed to meet the specific needs of their members. With only print media targeting this distinct and affluent consumer group, there is a very real opportunity to develop advertising revenues and bring new money into the broadcasting system through Rainbow Radio.

2037 The Pink Pages alone, which is the gay community's equivalent of the Yellow Pages, lists close to a thousand gay or gay positive businesses and organizations.

2038 MS LAURIGNANO: We are proposing a number of industry and community benefits as part of the creation of Rainbow Radio. The first major benefit is the Rainbow Radio Foundation, an independent, non-profit agency created to raise funds for benevolent causes. The second major benefit is community involvement. We will provide a form of "Speaker's Corner" so that individuals can record their thoughts or comments and these will be incorporated into the various forms of public affairs programming.

2039 Rainbow Radio is also committed to getting involved and supporting community events. The station will originate programming live from a number of community events, including fashion care, a comedy festival and Inside Out, which is the largest gay film festival in North America.

2040 In addition to the 27,000 TAB contribution, the station will probably promote talent in several ways. One of the developments is the Gay Creative Show, a showcase of fashion and art created by members of Toronto's gay community. There will be a $20,000 investment each year and these performances will be featured as station events throughout the Toronto area.

2041 Rainbow Radio will also contribute $30,00 a year to Canadian Music Week held each spring here in Toronto. Our agreement with organizers of Canadian Music Week is that the funds will be used to expand activities and talent showcases to include gay talent.

2042 The total contributions to Canadian talent will be over $500,00 during the seven year term of the licence. Rainbow Radio will be a significant contributor to the realization of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and will fulfil the Commission's licensing criteria.

2043 MR. KILBRIDE: First, we provide diversity. As of today, there are only four hours of programming per week on Campus Radio in Toronto for the gay community. There is also a half hour weekly television program on cable.

2044 Our proposal provides an unduplicated service to an underserved community that crosses all traditional social lines; language, gender, ethnicity and age. Secondly, we have a solid business plan that is premised on sound research demonstrating both demand and commercial viability. The broadcast experience we bring to this venture, combined with the overwhelming grassroots support, will ensure the success of Rainbow Radio.

2045 Thirdly, the ability to bring in new money to the broadcasting system will strengthen not only the operations of CKMW, but also the entire Toronto radio community by minimizing the impact on existing radio markets.

2046 MS LAURIGNANO: And, finally, perhaps the greatest benefit of Rainbow Radio goes beyond the wording of the Broadcasting Act, but in truth captures what we believe to be the spirit and intent.

2047 Rainbow Radio will contribute in a manner demonstrative of both power and potential of the broadcast medium. It is perhaps best said by Dr. Addy Rose, a Professor of Psychology at York University, who wrote the following in his letter of support, and I quote:

2048 Dr. Rose continues:

2049 End quote for Dr. Addy Rose. It is this crucial, unique and significant contribution that separates Rainbow Radio from all other applications.

2050 MR. EVANOV: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, we thank you for your attention and we would be pleased to answer your questions you may have. Carmela Laurignano, as General Manager of Rainbow Radio and the driving force behind this application, I have asked her to be the quarterback for our panel.

2051 Thank you.

2052 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov, ladies and gentlemen.

2053 I have four areas that I would like some clarification on. One is the programming as well as well as you will deal with open line programming. I see that you have attached guidelines that I don't think we have seen before, so you may be asked to at least summarize what they are since we didn't have them.

2054 I have a few questions about coverage and technical questions and then I have some questions for you, Mr. Evanov, about the impact projections that you feel may be the result of this hearing, depending on how licensing occurs.

2055 I will deal with the first three subjects before lunch and the fourth after lunch. I understand Professor Valverde has to leave and that she would not be crucial to answering that last part of the questioning. That's acceptable.

2056 You acknowledge, Mr. Evanov, at page 19 of your presentation today that you will provide diversity. Of course, as you have seen with other applicants, this is an important part of this hearing because it's very competitive. There are few frequencies and many applicants. It's important to know what it is that will be brought into the market to be able to judge what is the best use of these last, last, last frequencies for Toronto.

2057 I must admit that reading your application and hearing your presentation today, we need some clarification as to exactly what it is that your service will offer. For example, at page 8 you emphasize, Mr. Linney, and I quote:

2058 Later on, on page 10, you talk about Rainbow Radio being a vital part of serving our target audience, which I assume is the gay community, writ large as you yourself have done at the beginning and then at page 12 you say, Ms Laurignano, you want to make sure the station not only serves the needs of the gay community but also that it provides a bridge of understanding with the community at large.

2059 I understand the goals of serving, what you describe or characterize as a cultural community, and of improving the relationship perhaps with the gay community and the more traditional community.

2060 What I don't understand is why it won't be a gay radio station which, I suspect, for competitors in the market, that may make them wonder what kind of impact licensing this proposal will have on them. In other words, we want to know more about what your programming will be like and whether it will in fact be diverse.

2061 Your application states that the traditional community will also be interested. The music part of it I suspect may not be very different. There will be a large proportion of spoken word programming. That may be different, but what is the reason behind the comment that it's not going to be a gay radio station but a radio service that is gay friendly to someone in the community who already has a service and is concerned about the addition of your proposal into the community?

2062 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, Madam Chair. The intent for the gay friendly radio station here is just as there is no licence to serve heterosexual radio stations, we don't believe that you can license or there should be a licence for a gay radio station.

2063 The radio station would be part of this community, the larger community. Rainbow Radio will be one element of the total broadcast family here that will reflect first and foremost the needs, interests and aspirations of the gay community and, secondly, serve as a bridge between the gay and the overall population.

2064 I will answer your first question which I believe is what is unique and distinct about this particular proposal and then I would be happy to talk about how the programming is going to be very distinct from other services that are on right now.

2065 THE CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps we can speak about the spoken word programming and open line programming later. That is easier to understand as to the extent to which it would bring diversity. I would like you to speak to me about your play list, for example, how different will that be, how will the use of the day part differ as between spoken word programming, drive time, whatever is the normal or more usual way of programming this type of station on FM and the amount of music.

2066 You have provided us with some percentages of how much spoken word programming. Will there be large portions of the day where it won't be distinguishable from any other format?

2067 MS LAURIGNANO: I will tell you that we arrived at the program schedule, the content, the programming, the various day parts through extensive research. This was done both from a quantitative and a qualitative perspective for research. We conducted some focus groups. We conducted a major market research with Poyer, our research being the company, the organization that conducted field work.

2068 We were able to ascertain what the needs and wants of the community were before we finalized and designed the overall program schedule and content. Mr. Linney will speak to the research in just a moment on what the results were which were then incorporated into our programming.

2069 What I am saying is we didn't start out with a preconceived idea that this is what we are going to do and then have the research fit into it. The research in fact served to really identify and target in on what the needs and wants of this community were. We have specific issues and areas of issues that I will address after Mr.. Linney explains how the research was conducted and what the key findings were which basically designed the overall format.

2070 We determined from that that it had to be what we said was a full service because this is a whole community. It's not a target specific in terms of demographics, in terms of gender. There are various tastes and preferences for things, but there were more things that were uniting this community than were separating them when it came to serving their radio needs.

2071 We felt that those could be addressed best through the programming, but I will have Mr. Linney just address the research studies and then we can give you specific details of how these were incorporated.

2072 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Linney, before you get into this, I remind you what my question was. I have looked at the research and the application in detail. I understand what you may end up saying is or finding is what's required to offer this diversity.

2073 I would like you to skew your responses to if the results then, the addition of a radio station in the market, in its use of the frequency and the use of the music and so on is not going to be that much different from what's in the market already.

2074 As the regulator having to decide at the end of the day what's the best use of the frequency, that's our interest. If your research finds that but for open line programming, I'm exaggerating, there is no need for anything different, then we have a different approach because then where's the diversity and is it the best use of this frequency if someone has a very different format to offer.

2075 I hope you understand that's the direction I would like your clarification to take.

2076 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. Thank you. I understand your question quite well I think. If not, I'm sure you will correct me.

2077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Linney, of course, is welcome to speak to this.

2078 MS LAURIGNANO: What we determined was and what the research showed is there are distinct music preferences that exist within this community, the gay community, that are not currently offered by existing broadcasters. Like, for example, your music, show tones, some dance music.

2079 The members of the community expressed that there is a need to know what is happening within the particular community. The music, and we will address that in just a little bit, has been incorporated into the programming to serve the specific tastes of some musical preferences within the community.

2080 That is a distinguishing factor and assuming that it is a full service radio station. In other words, we are not playing country music 24 hours and we are not playing a specific format. We are trying to satisfy the needs of the community. They will be able to sample some music of their preference which is also not necessarily on current radio dials right now.

2081 For example, the show tunes, the popular standards like thing, and also the mix itself. We do have a play list that we would be happy to share with you so that you get a sense of what it's going to sound like.

2082 What's going to distinguish this community is the talk element. It is the spoken word that will interweave and be interwoven with the music., Keeping again in mind the objective of Rainbow Radio is to be inclusive and to serve as a bridge between the gay community and the larger community, we were able to determine that we can offer a balance of views and deal with a certain number of subjects that are relevant. These subjects of categories could possibly be described in three categories.

2083 Number one, there are issues and subjects that are specific to the gay community. An example of this could be an issue surrounding health, social activities, a policing issue, a cultural issue, a community event, a specific counselling service or other resources that are available to the community.

2084 The other issue, for example, is that we could address any conflicts of the larger community. For example, there are parenting issues. You know, being a straight parent of a gay son or daughter or vice versa and dealing with things such as hate crimes, unemployment, discrimination and inequity. Ms Hamilton referred to some of these issues where this station could be a bridge.

2085 Then there is what one would possibly say is a general interest or a topic which nevertheless has a gay perspective. I will tell you what I mean by that.

2086 For example, you talk about spousal benefits. It's something that somebody understands. But the definition, the interpretation, the relevance, the concept I believe is quite different between what is normally heard, let's say, in a talk show unless it's a specifically dedicated topic on another station.

2087 There are other things like, you know, estate planning or retirement, for example, which has a perspective in the same way. You know, my parents who are equal Canadians are getting ready, not for a while hopefully, but eventually to possibly go into retirement homes. I know that they would prefer to go to Villa Columbo which is very much geared toward dealing with people of their needs. It's not to say that one retirement home is better than the other or that, you know, the type of facilities that are offered. They would just feel more comfortable doing that.

2088 There is a perspective to that so the issue is relevant from that perspective. That's determined as what's important. There are also things within the community that are happening and that are relevant to the community. For example, there's a Hockey Week which is not reported. That could be part of, you know, the on air talk between the music programs. There's a gay World Series.

2089 I mentioned there's the Film Festival. There are other bigger events. The bigger events also cross over. For example, the Pride Parade. It's not a gay event.

2090 What we mean by gay friendly is that it is acceptable and desirable for advertisers, for the community itself and for the larger community to have some sort of cross-communication. The other thing too, and I will ask Mr. Linney to address this also, is the issue of visibility or invisibility of the gay community. There is no measurement. There is no way for us to absolutely establish or say, you know, this person's gay, that person is not gay. It's not our business.

2091 It's just in the same way that it's not our business on the heterosexual side. This is not about sex. It's about identifying the issues. We do the best job we could in determining what goes where. Bulletins from the clinical research point of view as well as with members of the community like Mr. Maidment who has worked in the community and is an active member and Ms Hamilton who brings a family perspective -- and that is how we arrived at those things.

2092 MR. LINNEY: Madam Wiley, first of all, two years from now, after Rainbow Radio is on the air, I would be very surprised, number one, if it was the number one radio station in Toronto. I would also be very surprised if anyone said, and researched it, they listened to it only because of music. And that gets back to the very issue of what we are proposing.

2093 This is not a format in the traditional sense of all the other applicants. We are not proposing urban; we are not proposing country; we are not proposing all dance. We are proposing a service designed to serve a community that, up to now, in the electronic media, is virtually invisible, but it's a community that has faces to it and it has people involved in daily lives, such as Keith, a fireman, who was up until five o'clock this morning fighting a general alarm fire, but who wanted to get involved in this project because when he first approached us he said, "I live in a community that has no viable way of communicating with each other, on a daily basis".

2094 The concept of gay-friendly and the bridge to other communities is taking that viable community, in the center of Toronto, and giving it the advantage of radio. Radio has numerous advantages that we have all discovered in working through it through the years. Number one: it is personal. When you are on an open-line show, it's anonymous. Number two: the announcer can talk to you, your event, your community or your issue. And number three: it can be heard wherever you are. You don't have to be in a gay club; you don't have to be in a gay meeting; you don't have to be involved in any kind of association.

2095 The results of that is that you help, in essence, the community evolve -- and that is when we turn to experts like Professor Valverde, to try and determine exactly how a radio service, unlike any other, literally, in North America, could be used to help a community that was identified but, up to now, not served at all.

2096 So, I would ask Professor Valverde just to, again, help clarify the concept of the service and what we mean when we say it's not a gay radio station but that it's gay-friendly.

2097 MS VALVERDE: I think, over the past 10 years or so, there's been a change away from this strict sort of "ghettoization" that characterized the gay community, in its very early days. I mean in the very early days, it was so completely stigmatized and marginal to provide any service for gay people that only the seediest possible bars would actually have a space for, you know, gay or lesbians.

2098 I think the tendency, now, is for services that are either gay-owned or not gay-owned to provide gay-friendly environments where gay people can go and they go with their heterosexual friends and it's not a big issue.

2099 Now, some people think, well, you know, Toronto is so enlightened and is so -- you know -- that you don't even need these sorts of special gay-friendly environments or services or media. And I think that is actually quite wrong.

2100 There's a great deal of homophobia out there. When you read autobiographical accounts by gay people of sort of how they, you know, discovered themselves, a lot of what they talk about is their relentless heterosexism, as it's called, of the mass media; you know, the average gay teenager turns on the T.V. and all they ever see is, you know, heterosexual teenagers that are going through all these struggles. That is the kind of thing that really contributes to what is called "internalized homophobia" and often leads to depression and much higher rates of suicide.

2101 So, even though we might think that, "Oh, well, you know, if you just take a walk through the gay village, look, you know, these people have everything they want and, you know, who needs anything more", nevertheless, homophobia is still very powerful. Gay-friendly spaces, you know, have to be built; they don't just exist out there. And so, a lot of people, I think, would love to have a space that was gay-friendly and, you know, even though, obviously, you know, musical preferences are not as, you know, perhaps, tied to sexual orientation as spoken word, you know, preferences, nevertheless, I think there's always a different spin that is put on even the same kind of music. I mean whether you like opera or rap music, you know, there's a sort of gay spin and there are sort of gay artists, or lesbian artists, that are in favour among the community, you know, even within that particular format. So I think what one has to think about isn't just the, you know, the virtues of this particular proposal but also, listening to this application, I think, should be an opportunity to reflect on the relentless heterosexism of the mass media, whether it's for-profit media or even, you know, publicly-owned media -- which is still, you know, totally heterosexist.

2102 MR. LINNEY: Madam Chairperson, in trying to determine what kind of service this was going to be and whether or not it was viable, one of the biggest questions we faced -- and we said it up front, in our application -- is trying to determine just how big the market was because, as I said, it has a direct impact on audience revenue, impact on existing broadcasters and the valuable use of what is, in essence, one of the last decent FM frequencies in Toronto.

2103 What we discovered in the research is that there is, indeed, market size to make a viable business. But we are talking niche radio. We are not -- we are talking the same thing as all news, we are talking the same thing as headline sports on television or the weather network on television. This is not designed for the masses. But it's not designed to turn off the masses, either. And that's why we keep coming back to gay-friendly. There is a role for radio in this particular market as an education bridge between the two communities, and that's why we feel that it's a very unique service that does provide diversity. Not diversity in the sense of, sorry, country versus rock or the mouldy oldies versus the old standards. This is a service that is on FM that is as much talk and has to do with the conversation, the public service announcements, the events that are covered, as it does with music for listening.

2104 THE CHAIRPERSON: I certainly understand the general concept, the aim, the desire, but we are here to try to see whether this is what's going to be accomplished by the proposal. It's not a question of questioning whether it's not a desirable proposal; it's the extent to which it will be a distinct proposal in its implementation. And Mr. Evanov, you have filed numerous theories of what a competitive format on the section -- on the frequencies that are available would do to your existing stations, et cetera, so I think it's only fair -- and then you have said, of course, it is a competitive format. It's only fair, I think, to discuss, in greater detail, whether this will be a competitive format for some more distinct format.

2105 I would ask you, for example -- I gather, from the comments I have heard today, in the application, that you won't be able to say what kind -- to niche -- to find a format that you can characterize the music that will be on; you won't be able to say it's a dance format or a contemporary format or -- is that correct? Or will there be a music format identifiable?

2106 MR. EVANOV: The format will be not a music-driven format. The format is a full-service format where, I believe, the spoken word is almost 40-45 per cent of the format and then music, perhaps, bridges the various elements of the spoken word, together -- and even in that, the music selection is right across the spectrum. As mentioned, it contains everything, and you might compare it to sort of a block programming, but not necessarily block -- and maybe Carmela can expand on that a little better.

2107 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, the answer is that it won't be a distinguishable format that one could put a label on; it will cross over many types --

2108 MR. EVANOV: It will cross over -- I'm sorry -- it will cross over many formats. It is not one specific format, with one specific demo. We are not coming to you saying, we are going to reach the 18-24 with this demo or the, you know, 35-44 with that demo. No. This is right across the board. You might picture a small town somewhere where one small radio station is trying to serve the entire town and provide that whole population with a total variety of music rather than one selection of -- one specific selection of music.

2109 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to ask you a very specific question so that you understand what I'm trying to get at.

2110 If I look at your supplementary brief, at paragraph 24.4 -- it's not paginated, so -- you talk about, here, the programming schedule, which you attached. The format will include 40 to 45 per cent spoken word, on week days, and that you will offer a full-service morning show called "Wake Up Toronto", from six-to-10.

2111 Now, let's say it's peak driving time. You say that it will include traffic reports, weather forecasts and six to eight musical selections per hour, the majority either pop, rock or dance.

2112 I understand that it will also, during that period -- which is a large period, six-to-10 -- that there would be interviews and features dealing with issues, subjects, reviews of interests to the gay community. That part, the spoken word part, the open-line programming is easier to understand.

2113 But during the real peak hour, I'm in my car, going to work, in Toronto, what will that peak drive time be? Will it be the usual weather forecasts, traffic reports, newscasts, interspersed with pop, rock or dance music?

2114 MS LAURIGNANO: Madam Chair, it will be that and more, and that -- what the distinction is it's the "more". In terms of --

2115 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand during the six-to-10 period there will be more. But what do you consider the peak drive time, in the morning, and what will be in that peak area?

2116 See, everyone at this hearing is interested in telling us how they will offer diversity, how they would be different, they will have no impact and they will have something that was never there, and we have to kind of look at, well, what are the indices of how different it will be if it is the last, last, last frequency? Do we give it for children? -- well, that's not your case because that's AM. Do we give it for what you call a gay-friendly radio station? Do we give it for a Christian radio station?

2117 So we have to have a fair idea of what is likely to be on the air that will be different in as many day parts as possible as what we have now.

2118 MS LAURIGNANO: Could I ask Mr. Linney to address that? Because he's got a breakdown.

2119 MR. LINNEY: Madam Wiley, you keep coming back to music and we keep coming back to the point that up to 45 per cent of our programming day is spoken word, again, because we are serving a very unique community, in a very unique way.

2120 One of the reasons why we are proposing this type of format, or service, for FM is because the frequency, ideally, matches where the gay population is in Toronto; it happens to be --

2121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. My question was: Describe to me what the peak drive time will be in the morning. The general concept I think I understand. I'm just trying to look at peak hours for radio. What will the peak drive time hour radio station be? What will it be? Will it -- I'm not saying -- you said I go back to music. I'm reading from your own application, where you say what six-to-10 will be, and I'm trying to break it down into a narrower time frame and get you to speak of what will be on the hour at that time. Because, just like Mr. Evanov is concerned about the effect on his existing station of us giving the 93.5 frequency to someone who will have a competitive format to his station, there will be others who will be concerned about whether your radio station, as planned, is not going to be that much different from theirs. I'm just trying to give you the opportunity to clarify further for us just how will it be different.

2122 I understand the open-line programming and issues. I'm talking about peak hours on radio.

2123 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, for example, the peak hours will be the morning and the drive, in terms of a general attraction of audience, or the audience which is likely to be attracted to the radio station. It's more convenient to listen to it. As you know, there's people who are driving, they are doing -- so we expect that those peak hours will be important and be big.

2124 By the same token, we do -- because of the full-service nature, there is going to be blocks of time when people will make it a point to tune in, whether it's for a talk show, whether it's for a specific music program, whether it's for, you know, some update, which could be local sports, whether it's for a community calendar, which we intend to broadcast, highlighting, you know, what's happening in the community.

2125 So, in terms of, let's say, what the morning show would sound like, there will be -- let's say we take a six-to-10 a.m. block. There's going to be a major newscast, at seven, eight and nine o'clock; there will be surveillance reports, as we said, 12 occasions; there is information, interviews and features. It's going to be interactive. And we are expecting to play no more than eight musical selections an hour in there.

2126 But we do have a list prepared. You may want to take a look at that. We would be happy to file it.

2127 But, basically, again, it's music that is very broad-based. It's a community that encompasses all age groups, all musical tastes and we will incorporate that in the program.

2128 Does that --

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

2129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

2130 Your Canadian talent development, in your -- what you detail in Schedule 4, which is the $27,000 to the talent plan, and then an additional $50,000 which is divided in a number of proposals, and in your deficiency -- in the response to the deficiency letter, at page 8, you confirm that it's the total amount of $77,000 a year that you are committed to.

2131 Would you -- I don't think we asked whether you were prepared to commit to this amount, per year, for a seven-year licence term, if that's what you would have.

2132 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, we would be very prepared to commit to it. And I can also assure that this is a minimum guarantee, as we stated. We hope to exceed it in every way we can. And, of course, it doesn't take into account any indirect contributions that we hope to make. But, definitely, we commit to that.

2133 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, just a few questions about your proposals.

2134 One -- I'm looking at Schedule 4 -- is $30,000 yearly to Canadian Music Week, which is a fair amount of money, and that -- this is an initiative to allocate to support gay artists.

2135 Now, will these funds be allocated to the artists themselves? How will you allocate this sum, per year, on this proposal?

2136 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. What we have is we have a letter on file, and an agreement with Canadian Music Week, which is dated September 10, 1999, where we have a commitment that, for the 30,000 we have undertaken with Canadian Music Week, to develop inclusion in not just the talent and the showcasing but also in the development of seminars, the educational programs and those kinds of things that Canadian Music Week does.

2137 I don't have a specific number for you but I would insist, and I can tell you, that a significant amount of that would go directly to the artists, as well, because part is to showcase.

2138 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the Canadian Music Week, the $30,000 is different from the $20,000, which is the Talent Showcase commitment.

2139 How are these different from --

2140 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, they are. They are two separate proposals.

2141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And if we are still speaking about the money to Canadian Music Week, that will be devoted for the promotion or helping sponsoring gay artists and it will include the type of activities that you have just spoken of.

2142 Now, with the $20,000 to showcase talent within the community of prominent Toronto venues, can you give us an example of how that money will be allocated and used?

2143 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes. That will be a direct payment to artists and performers in that. We expect that the community will, you know, rally with us. There are several venues, avenues, where we can co-operate, on a joint basis, so that we can gather other resources to pay for other things to stage the event. But the 20,000 would be a direct payment to artists and performers, in conjunction with that event.

2144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, we will speak about the spoken part of your proposal, which will probably be easier -- yes, I can see.

2145 In your supplementary brief, at paragraph 21.1, where you speak about the concept, and you have spoken a number of times, in response to my questions this morning, about the general concept that it would be -- I am quoting from your paragraph -- that it will be a unique service, designed to meet the cultural and social needs of a specific cultural group in Toronto that actively involves an estimated 365,000 people. And I think that the research conducted, by Cue Two -- at page 8, there is a, I think it's a quote, perhaps, from someone, but anyway I'm quoting: the element of the interconnectivity, through call-in programs, will be of particular interest for that group. So you, obviously, are responding to this where it's more obvious that this will, then, be the part of your proposal that will more understandably and easily achieve your aim when you try to imagine what the station will look like.

2146 So I'm trying to look at the number of open-line programming shows that there will be, which I think will be that largest source of this interactivity and of giving a voice to this community.

2147 Straight Talk, then, is one from -- I'm using the program schedule that you attached -- you probably know where it is. It's attached to --

2148 MS LAURIGNANO: I have it in front of me.

2149 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have it?

2150 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes.

2151 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can't remember exactly what it was attached to.

2152 Okay. From looking at this, now, we have Straight Talk, which would be 10-to-noon, every day, on week days --

2153 MS LAURIGNANO: And Saturday. As well as Saturday. Monday through Saturday.

2154 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is Saturday the Byline? No. Then there's an additional one on Sunday, nine-to-11, called the Byline?

2155 MS LAURIGNANO: That's correct.

2156 THE CHAIRPERSON: So six days of Straight Talk. The Byline show.

2157 Would it be fair to say that the Teen Something show will also be an open-line or somewhat of an open-line interactive -- I get this from looking at the description of the program.

2158 MS LAURIGNANO: That is correct. It will be very interactive.

2159 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then, would it be fair to say that Community Access may also fall into not open -- well, perhaps open-line programming -- I'm just referring to the guidelines and the particular issue that may be raised in this case because this type of programming may get challenged to those who hold more traditional views of sexuality and, therefore, more likely to create the type of difficulty that open-line programming can create.

2160 You also have a plan, which I see in paragraph 21.6.1, about Speaker's Corner. That's in your supplementary brief. And I gather that some of that may end up on the station as well. Correct?

2161 MS LAURIGNANO: That is correct.

2162 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those would all be programming of an open-line type.

2163 And I haven't done the calculation of what the percentage of talk programming is. Do you know?

2164 I know that you have 42 -- spoken word programming is indicated as 40.8 per cent of the broadcast week and 42 to 45 on week days. Is that correct? From which I would have to take away the newscasts and so on. So a high percentage would be open-line programming of the spoken word programming.

2165 MS LAURIGNANO: Also, the News Magazine that you see, from Monday through Sunday -- which is an entertainment news magazine -- that, too, is very much interactive; so there will be opportunity in there for open-line engagement and open-line programming.

2166 THE CHAIRPERSON: Interestingly, so that I'm not -- you, yourself, at one point, have talked about one program being a program that you describe as dealing with less controversial issues.

2167 So, I gather there's an understanding, or an acknowledgement for you, that -- by you, that this may require a little more sensitivity on the part of the broadcaster who is responsible for what gets on the air.

2168 MS LAURIGNANO: That's correct. And, in fact, one of the reasons why we instituted the Community Access program after, you know, some of the research that we conducted -- and I myself was witness to the focus groups observatory point of view -- and talking with the community itself, we felt that that particular hour, one hour a week, would be a good thing for us to have, in terms of, one, giving access to, perhaps, you know, interests or issues or things that are upcoming in the community that normally wouldn't get that much time dedicated, because we do have to keep strict programming and we have to follow some sort of order, but, secondly, as well, in consultation with the advisory committee, we felt that, at some point or other, we may need to balance the views, you know, that could stem from a talk show, or that kind of thing, and that's what would be a great avenue to do that. And, of course, we would promote it as such, as well. So, it's a little meeting place for all kinds of things.

2169 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have open-line programming, now, on either of the stations? On CHOW, for example?

2170 MS LAURIGNANO: Not open-line programming, per se, but on CHOW, we do have a lot of very interactive programs and talk-type, you know, where, depending on the language or the cultural group we are serving, there is interactivity, or the producers will do that on occasional basis rather than a regular basis.

2171 THE CHAIRPERSON: What distinction do you make, or do you make one, between open-line programming and interactivity? I'm using "open-line" as an ability of someone who -- to respond to a broadcaster and get involved in a conversation on air. Is that what you mean by "interactivity"? And if so -- the words are fairly interchangeable.

2172 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, I would agree with that.

2173 The distinction I was making is that -- see, the interactive was in terms of offering people, you know, occasional or not a sustained sort of open-line programming; there could be music in between and, you know, the topic of the day. But, yes, it is --

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

2174 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were asked by the staff to express your views about your understanding of the open-line programming guidelines or policy of the Commission and responded that you were well aware -- and, in fact, I see, today, that you have filed guidelines.

2175 Before we look at them very briefly, because I haven't had time to really read them, tell me what has been your experience with interactive programming on the station that you operate now.

2176 MS LAURIGNANO: Well, the experience is, I'm sure, not uncommon with a lot of other broadcasters have had. Basically, when you are engaged in that kind of thing, you have to be vigilant and foresee that you could have a problem, in terms of that a view has not been balanced, or there's a lack of view for balance of view, that there's an opportunity for an abusive comment, or there's an opportunity for a complaint.

2177 THE CHAIRPERSON: So how do you go about forestalling that or dealing with it if it occurs?

2178 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. Well, there is a few major areas. One is that we operate now, and we would operate, on a time delay for those kinds of things to make sure that, you know, the operator and the people who were responsible had an opportunity to edit if that thing came along. Definitely, there is guidelines, and there is training for all on-air staff outlining what their responsibilities are, in terms of stereotyping or, you know, making abusive comments, that kind of thing. We post, very prominently, and it's a matter of policy that the codes, both voluntary and the ones that we subscribe to, are adhered to at all times, and everybody's aware; it's part of their training. The program director oversees that. Also, the station manager is always responsible.

2179 In the case of complaints, for example, everyone is instructed that those have to be brought to the highest level, as soon as they happen, no matter how they come in, and they are dealt with in a proper and expedient way, in most cases.

2180 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the Community Access, will there be -- this won't be on air immediately, will it? This is something -- a secret corner in Toronto, from what I gather, and it will be taped and then choices made as to what goes on air?

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

2181 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it will be that much easier, in that case, because it will be delayed, and I suppose it's then not as important how you pre-screen or pre-arrange what will get on because you have an ex post facto power to decide not to --

2182 MS LAURIGNANO:  -- you will see, as well, that our production people are the ones who would be responsible that are subject to the same training and understanding of the guidelines and the policies, as well as our newspeople. We would expect that, you know, guests who are either pre-recorded or, you know, newsmakers or controversial people that, first of all, they would be advised that, you know, the thing was going on air and that they would be sensitive to that. So even the production people, the ones who would be assembling it, would be familiar with the guidelines.

2183 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you acknowledge that this may be a little more challenging than what you have been used to before and that -- not only because of the community and the possibility of challenging people's views of the world but also because they will be a larger proportion of content, so vigilance will be even more important --

2184 MS LAURIGNANO: In fact, if I can just add one more thing -- sorry to interrupt you -- one of the purposes of the advisory committee is, in fact, to give us some input and some guidelines into, you know, what issues are appropriate, what their wisdom is as members of the communities who are working with the community. They will be apprised of complaints that have -- that come in. In some cases, where we can get their help in helping to resolve those, we will do that. We will also keep a report of complaints, as they come in -- not that we received many, but we will have a full report there -- and, of course, will work the Broadcast Council, as well, in that regard.

2185 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, coverage, not necessarily in the technical sense but in the size of the community you will be aiming at -- I see Professor Valverde has left. I thought she was leaving at two. Apparently she may be the one with the answers. But Schedule 17 says that there will be 365,000 gay people in the area covered by 93.5.

2186 How have these numbers been arrived at?

2187 MS LAURIGNANO: I'm going to pass that to Mr. Linney.

2188 MR. LINNEY: Professor Valverde, unfortunately, had a class that started at two, so she needed an hour to get out to the University of Toronto and she regrets that she had to leave.

2189 She, as you mentioned, was instrumental in helping us to try to determine exactly the potential size of the market.

2190 Because, obviously, sexual orientation is not one of the questions asked in any kind of formal survey, nor has there been, ever, an official study done, we relied on the expertise of people or companies already involved in covering the gay communication, such as publications; we relied on the expertise of the University of Toronto and studies that the Sexology Department has done.

2191 The estimates range from 5 per cent of the general population, as high as 20 per cent of the population, so we picked a median in between and estimated that the gay population, the gay community, in Toronto, represents 12 per cent of the population -- which is how the circulation was arrived at.

2192 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have not conducted some demographic profile type of research on your own, other than Professor Valverde's advice and publications like Extra.

2193 With regard to the advertisers, how do you think the advertisers are reaching this community now? Or are they not?

2194 MR. EVANOV: At the present time, the advertisers are using, almost exclusively, print media. There's a publication called the Pink Pages, very similar to the Yellow Pages, and we have gone through that --

2195 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- a little close to your mic.

2196 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry.

2197 THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought I would give some advice to a radio person.

--- Laughter / Rires

2198 MR. EVANOV: They don't let me in the studio at the station.

--- Laughter / Rires

2199 MR. EVANOV: As a matter of fact, they lock the doors when I come by.

--- Laughter / Rires

2200 MR. EVANOV: We looked at a number -- we looked at numerous publications in the area because, obviously, there is no gay radio station and there is no gay radio television station or cable service or speciality channel, but there is an abundance of print media available to this market, and the reason it's very successful is that there are no other options for anyone else. It's too cost effective for an advertiser to go on mainstream radio and buy five or six or seven radio stations hoping to reach this particular market. We examined Pink Pages, which is very similar to the Yellow Pages -- and we do have copies here -- but they list 1,000 advertisers in the Pink Pages, and that's both gay and gay-friendly businesses, and our assessment was that anywhere between 80 and 90 per cent you will never, never hear on radio; they are just not there. Which is one of the reasons, I think, encouraged us to bring forward this application, because that's a lot of new revenue we can bring to the radio industry and broadcasting.

2201 We looked at Extra Magazine and it's the same situation: there were, perhaps, 100 advertisers in that magazine that also use mere print exclusively -- or 90 per cent of them, we felt, used print exclusively. And the same thing with NOW and I-Weekly Magazine, which are very gay-friendly: they appeal to the overall population but they are very gay-friendly, you know; their editorial boards and their writers are a combination of from the straight community to the gay community. We have also received -- but there is an abundance of print media out there, and that will carry on. But all we are saying is that there is no radio station to seek out these budgets, you know. We have received letters from Air Canada and Labatt's -- they are filed with the intervention. Now that would go to increased budget rather than brand new, but, you know, there's a few good examples here. Air Canada is very interested in this particular market, whether it be destinations, whether it's San Francisco, Toronto, or the reverse, coming to -- I mean San Francisco, New York, or the reverse, coming to Toronto, because those are the three large gay centres in North America. But, also, a large part of their budget would go to promote business class travel because they realize the number of professionals in the gay community that -- you know, whether it be accountants, lawyers, business people, stockbrokers, bankers. So we have a budget there should this materialize.

2202 Just locally -- well, north of Toronto, outside of the city, is Canada's Wonderland, and Canada's Wonderland hosts an annual gay day, but, to date, they can't really use mainstream radio to promote that; they use -- they have print media. But we know that they will increase budget and use this particular radio station to promote and inform about that event.

2203 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Evanov, I'm looking at your deficiency responses, at page 5, question 2.

2204 From the clarification you just gave, I would have thought that you wouldn't have much of an impact on local radio stations if advertisers are now trying to reach the communities via mainstream communities.

2205 Do I understand that the breakdown of the revenue -- the sources of revenue, that 40 per cent local market radio stations is advertising, that would be lost to existing radio stations? Because I would think it would be additional. If they are now targeting the mainstream and the gay people together, they will continue targeting the mainstream and now add advertising on that station. Why would there be 40 per cent from existing stations as a source of your revenue?

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

2206 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- 40 per cent from local market radio stations, 30 per cent increase in advertising budget -- from your recent comments, I understand that -- and 30 per cent from other media -- I understand that -- which would be, presumably, targeted medias and the media reallocation of budget. But what is the 40 per cent? What does it mean? Considering what you just said.

2207 MR. EVANOV: We have budgeted a figure, in any realistic situation, and I would think with the other format, you know, we would estimate -- and this is based on my experience of many years in the market -- a good 50 per cent, even higher, comes from existing radio stations. When we did our application, we didn't want to submit numbers to you that you felt would be very -- too low, and we talked about it, we looked at the various advertisers, we came up with 40 per cent and we said even that's probably a high figure but, automatically, some money comes from existing advertisers to a new radio station, and ours would be the least impact, only because there is so much business out there, and there could be certain budgets shifted around. Automatically, some budgets will shift with every -- with the entry of a new radio service on a market, so I'm not going to tell you that no money will come from any other radio station. I will tell you that any money coming to this particular radio station will not come from any one source, or two sources, in the City of Toronto, but a variety of radio stations from all over the city.

2208 I'm going to ask our sales manager, Ky Lein, just maybe to add something to that, if she could, please.

2209 MS JOSEPH-LEIN: Thank you, Bill.

2210 I would also like to add that, yes, we did project 40 per cent of revenue coming from local radio stations; however, if you look at the share has projected -- that has been projected, that's only $792,000. That is, in fact, .5 of 1 per cent of the entire revenue that was generated by radio, in 1998. That is really a very small portion.

2211 I would also like to add that, through the process of this application, we have been continuing to do research and, personally, I have gone out to 40 businesses that I feel would be solid advertisers for Rainbow Radio and, as a sales professional, I can tell you that I'm quite used to rejection -- not too high of a percentage, but I'm used to rejection -- and not one person, not one business out of those 40 businesses said, "No, I would not be interested". They were very interested. They were excited at the fact that they might have another medium that they would be able to either redirect advertising dollars to or create new advertising budgets -- and that is so exciting for us, as broadcasters, to see that we could bring a whole new stream of revenue into radio.

2212 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, perhaps what you are saying is that a 40 per cent is high and the 30 per cent increase in advertising budgets is low -- which would be more logical from the comments you are making. That --

2213 MR. EVANOV: Yes.

2214 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- now, people, who want to pitch to that community have to do it via mainstream. Well, they are not going to stop pitching to mainstream and also --

2215 MS LAURIGNANO:  -- we are experienced broadcasters and we just know how it works. Basically, let's face it, if you are in your first year, you are -- first, we know the potential in the market. We know where the efficient community is. We are talking to advertisers who are not traditional advertisers for radio, so it's going to take a while to build. So, what you do is, if you are realistic and you tell the truth, you go to those people who are already converted, and those are your people who are advertising on radio. So, in that sense, yes, there's 40 -- after the 40 per cent will come from there; and then, from there, it will develop. But what's significant is the impact. Because, as we have demonstrated, in our research, the audience is not going to come from any particular radio station, from any particular music format, so the impact is really the least of all the applicants, in our view, for this reason.

2216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, my questions are not unrelated to those that we will discuss after lunch, which is impact on your station from any licensing action by us.

2217 Before we break for lunch, we have discussed with most applicants whether there are other frequencies that could be used to accommodate their proposals -- and this is a highly competitive proceeding, and in light of the fact that your proposal, albeit on FM, will be quite highly the spoken word, have you looked at other options that may be available on the AM band?  -- And one that experienced broadcasters have been asked to comment on is, for example, between 1605 kHz and 1705 kHz on AM, which would be the expanded portion of the band.

2218 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, the answer is, no, we haven't looked. We proceeded on this application based on the call, which was for the available frequencies 740 and 93.5. We looked at the technical primaries of 93.5. The area was served by a number of formats that, really, when we looked at what the best use of a frequency was, and having identified the market that was niched, that lived in the area, geographically located there, we proceeded on that basis. So, we have not.

2219 And, quite frankly, the use of the FM as a full service for both talk and music is quite exciting, because there is part of the music format that -- there's even classical on the weekends. So it's --

2220 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, you don't see AM for this proposal as a viable alternative at all?

2221 MS LAURIGNANO: What we see -- is it possible? Yes, it's a viable alternative. However, I must say that, in our view, it's not the best use of frequency, based on where the community is and based, as I said, on the call.

2222 THE CHAIRPERSON: By that, you mean the gay community which, I think, you identify as --

2223 MS LAURIGNANO: Downtown --

2224 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- being in the area covered by 93.5?

2225 We will break for lunch, and then, as I said earlier, we will have some questions about impact of the proposals that are before us and of your proposal on others. So we will resume at 2:30.

2226 Alors, nous rependrons à deux heures et demie.

--- Recess at 1:10 p.m. / Suspension à 1:10 p.m.

--- Upon resuming at 2:36 p.m. / Reprise à 2:36 p.m.

2227 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order. Please be seated.

2228 Welcome back, Mr. Evanov and your colleagues.

2229 I have, as I mentioned this morning, some questions related to the financial information that you filed, in confidence, with the Commission, in part, outlining or illustrating what you perceive to be the financial impact on CKMW -- that is, on its two stations, CIDC-FM and CHOW-AM -- as a result of this hearing, and I have a few questions about the assumptions that underlie these projections.

2230 So, just so we use the same material, I have Appendices A and B, which were filed in response to the deficiency question, by the staff, which outline the actual results for CIDC-FM and CHOW-AM at the end of 1999 and projections to August, 2000, then Appendices C and D, which are seven-year financial projections for the CIDC and CHOW if you were licensed on 93.5, presumably, on the proposal before us, and then Appendices E and F, which are seven-year financial projections for CHOW and CIDC if there is a denial of 93.5 to you and it's granted to a contemporary format, or one that you considered to be competitive, and also of both a contemporary format to someone else on 93.5 and 740 being granted to an ethnic station, so the combination of those two, what the effect would be on CHOW, so we know what we are talking about.

2231 Over and above that, you have, of course, the usual projections for 93.5 for your proposal.

2232 And also factored into this is the -- well, at least the severity of the -- the temporary severity of the impact of the change in format of CISS-FM on CIDC. I say "temporary" because you say that you will improve the situation over time.

2233 And then also factored in is whether or not the application that you, by deference, to change the transmitter of CIDC is approved or not.

2234 Have I got that straight?

2235 Is an approval -- a technical amendment of CIDC-FM actually in all of these? Is it assumed in all of these appendices? Because it's not always clear from the assumption that it assumes an improvement in CIDC, a technical -- that the amendment is approved.

2236 MR. EVANOV: Yes, it assumes that our technical amendments with CIDC are improved somewhat.

2237 THE CHAIRPERSON: Suppose the other assumptions were to come through -- that is, you either -- you are licensed on 93.5, or somebody else is, and for some reason the amendment is not approved, can you give me an order of magnitude of the difference in these projections that would result from a non-approvement of the CIDC amendment?

2238 MR. EVANOV: Yes, we will. I'm going to ask our comptroller, Mike Kilbride, to dig out the information -- and as we are doing that, I do want to mention that when we filed the application to the Commission to improve our technical parameters with CIDC that was done based on the work we had assembled last spring, and I think we filed in early July, and we hoped that would have been dealt with before getting into this particular hearing, but that was not the case. So, when we did file, we made the assumption that something would be improved with CIDC and, for that reason, we filed in that manner.

2239 We have worked our financial statements that would also show -- although not submitted to the Commission -- but we have worked out financial statements that would show the impact on CIDC if those amendments were not changed or improved. So I'm not sure which to start with now, but you want a comparison of --

2240 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, since you tell me that what you filed in this particular application always assumes an approval of the amendment of CIDC, if your worst case scenario -- which would be that the Commission licenses what you consider a competitive format to someone else on 93.5 -- if it also refused your amendment, what would be the addition to the loss that you are projecting if you have a competitor on 93.5?

2241 Am I not making myself clear?

2242 MR. EVANOV: I understand you clearly, now.

2243 We were going to talk in percentages, if that's fine with you. These were filed in confidence.

2244 THE CHAIRPERSON: Give me an order of magnitude of how much worse the situation would be if 93.5 was granted to another applicant and CIDC was refused.

2245 The reason I'm asking is you tell me that the amendment is assumed in the projections that show the impact of 93.5 being licensed to a competitive format.

2246 MR. EVANOV: Okay, if I can just consult with my comptroller for a moment, I just want to make sure these --

2247 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not want exact numbers. I just want to know just how much did you factor in.

2248 MR. EVANOV: Yes.

--- Pause / Pause

2249 MR. EVANOV: Our comptroller informs me what we have is the projections if 93.5 is approved and the tower application denied.

2250 I don't have one for denial in both cases.

2251 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have an order of magnitude of how much better the situation would be for CIDC with the amendment?

2252 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, I wonder if you could tell me better than what, better than -- which scenario we would use as a base scenario.

2253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm looking at the scenario that gives me -- well, there are two scenarios. One is the impact on CIDC if CIDC were licensed to you, and it tells me that -- and then a scenario where 93.5 were granted to someone other than CIDC on a format competitive with CIDC.

2254 I don't want to make that too complicated, but I'm wondering whether it makes a big difference if CIDC were or were not allowed to amend. In accordance with the application that we will hear later on this week.

2255 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Chairman, I think I can extrapolate -- we don't have a projection prepared for that, but I can tell you that the losses that are projected, which would confirm 93.5 awarded to a competitive format, that takes into account an approval of the technical amendment to move the tower. Okay? And those losses which are shown in, I believe, 1 through 7, those losses would be substantially increased without the approval of the technical amendment. By "substantial", I mean an order of magnitude in --

2256 THE CHAIRPERSON: Increased? Not decreased?

2257 MR. KILBRIDE: If the tower is denied.

2258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have Appendix F?

2259 MR. KILBRIDE: Appendix F?

2260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is the impact on CIDC-FM if 93.5 is awarded to a competitive format.

2261 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.

2262 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question is: Are the losses in there reflecting, as well -- not reflecting -- are they reflecting, in one way or the other, whether the CIDC amendment is allowed?

2263 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.

2264 THE CHAIRPERSON: What's the order of magnitude of the help you will get from the amendment?

2265 MR. KILBRIDE: The losses that are projected reflect they include the help we would get from approval of the technical amendment.

2266 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the losses are decreased. Right? You lose from having 93.5 on another frequency but you are helped by the amendment?

2267 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.

2268 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the losses are decreased not increased?

2269 MR. KILBRIDE: The losses would be increased if the technical amendment is not approved.

2270 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay. Or decreased if the amendment is approved?

2271 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.

2272 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't get hit with both?

2273 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.

2274 THE CHAIRPERSON: And can you -- I didn't know this would be so complicated.

2275 What's the order of magnitude factored in of the improvement from the amendment of CIDC?

2276 MR. KILBRIDE: If you give me just one second, I will look at the comparison.

2277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I will pursue -- I didn't know this would be so complex.

2278 But there are a number of things factored in here. Right? You have an amendment, which will improve your situation. If you have 93.5, it will have an effect on CIDC. If it's licensed to someone else, it will have an even worse effect. And then CHOW will be affected if 740, or anything, goes to an ethnic station.

2279 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.

2280 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because my impression is that CKMW is putting forward as an issue that what the Commission should be looking at is the impact of its licensing decisions on CKMW as an existing broadcaster. Is that fair?

2281 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes.

2282 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the severity of that move is whether or not you are the lucky licensee of 93.5, if someone else, whether it's a competitive format, et cetera, and whether the amendment of CIDC is approved also is factored in, so I'm trying to see what the reasonableness of these projected scenarios are since we are supposed to take them into consideration.

2283 In the Appendix D, which looks at if 93.5 is awarded to CKMW, in the key assumptions made, you say that the economies of scale, as a result of approval of 93.5 application, are reflected entirely in the projections for 93.5 and not reflected in the projections for CIDC. Why is that?

2284 MR. EVANOV: Actually, we said -- it was the other way around. I think we said that they were reflected in the CIDC seven-year projection.

2285 THE CHAIRPERSON: The assumption -- I believe I have a photocopy here.

2286 The economies of scale, as a result of approval of the 93.5-FM application, are reflected entirely in the projections submitted for that application and are not provided for in these projections.

2287 Do you have --

2288 MR. EVANOV: The savings are -- okay. I'm sorry. It's the savings that are reflected in the 93.5 application.

2289 THE CHAIRPERSON: But why would there not also be some savings from scale if you have two licences on FM and one on AM rather than just two in CIDC as well?

2290 MR. EVANOV: What we would do is we would use the synergy of three radio stations and, at year end, pro rate the cost savings among the three radio stations pro rata to the revenue brought in by each radio station.

2291 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that Appendix D would -- could have results that are even better than is shown here because the economies of scale would be apportioned to it, as well?

2292 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, I think I can answer that.

2293 It's true that, depending upon the accounting in future years, that projection labelled "Appendix D" could look a little better. But the idea in preparing this, to have some consistent format, was to look at what the marginal costs would be to operate a new frequency under 93.5, and when we projected those figures and we came up with the actual projected operating costs, we took into account the fact that some costs would not be incurred because things such as the studio is already built and in place, the physical facility and plant is in place, the telephone system is in place to operate an additional station. No marginal costs would be incurred. And then, once we have done that and projected that and we were asked about the deficiencies, if we took the same costs out of this projection in Appendix D, it would, in fact, be misleading; we would have taken them out of both projections.

2294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in these same assumptions, in this Appendix D, you say that the comparable sales benefits are reflected in the CIDC projections and not in the 93.5 application. Why is that?

2295 MR. EVANOV: They are in the projections but we didn't break them, specifically, to show them.

2296 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me clarify. I don't have the originals with me.

2297 At the bottom of these appendices, do you have some bullet-form paragraphs under the rubric key assumptions?

2298 MR. KILBRIDE: Yes; I have got that in front of me.

2299 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just so that we are singing from the same hymn book, I suppose.

2300 You say that the new station, if you were the successful applicant on 93.5, would benefit -- both the stations would benefit from a combined sales effort approach.

2301 Can you explain how such an approach would be carried on in a competitive market like the GTA?

2302 MR. EVANOV: I guess, basically, in this day and age of multiple ownership and combos, it's increasingly difficult for an independent to get budgets from advertising agencies; you are probably fifth, sixth, seventh, tenth in line or whatever.

2303 In this particular case, we could combo a portion of the Rainbow Radio audience in a particular demo that might complement the CIDC demo. So it's not a total combo. It would be restricted in many ways because Rainbow Radio has a wide spectrum of age listening, whereas CIDC is more specific target to a specific demo 18-24 -- 18-24. But by doing that, we can offer advertising agencies perhaps a larger BBM share in the overall Toronto CMA. I'm approaching it from the sales perspective right now.

2304 But even there, it's limited, in terms of sales, but we estimate that perhaps 3 per cent of the total sales of 93.5 would initially come from maybe a combo situation in national and some retail.

2305 Now, each station would have its own separate sales force and would work totally independent but would work together, in terms of securing combo buys, in the face of multiple ownerships. That's from the sales end.

2306 In terms of the synergies between the two and three stations -- is that what was the previous question? I'm not sure.

2307 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since you assumed that there will be benefits from combo sales, I was just curious as to how, in this market, this would materialize, or operate.

2308 MR. EVANOV: Well, I think the other factor is -- and this is a very important one -- Rainbow Radio is a downtown Toronto signal and I think, in the 3 millivolt, the population is 1.4 million. The population of the Toronto CMA is 4.2 million. So any small radio station in downtown Toronto is going to have a difficult time getting any advertising agency buys because all your buys through the agencies, retail-national, are predicated on BBM numbers that only give you the measurement for the entire CMA. I know we have made the same argument with the other station, previously, but the numbers they are buying are Toronto CMA numbers, which is based on 4.2 million population; whereas the population in the 3 millivolt of 93.5 is only 1.4 million. Therefore, the station in Toronto, that's why we projected a two-share, and we think our revenue estimates are very conservative and in line with reality. You can only do so much national business. I think we have capped ours at 20 per cent. And it's based on that limited reach, with the limited signal. But by combining some of these synergies, in terms of audience, with the two stations, we will be able to secure some buys that perhaps, right now, we are getting knocked out on. You know, if we did -- you know, there's various scenarios that we have gone through, and it would depend on the ages of the groups that we are putting together.

2309 And in terms of that selling synergy, I would like to ask Ky just to maybe add a few words to this.

2310 MS JOSEPH-LEIN: Thank you, Bill.

2311 A perfect example of this loss of revenue due to multiple ownership today would be Canada's Wonderland and the new CISS-FM. We lost a large portion of our revenue last year. We are now only receiving about 50 per cent of last year's budget. And based on our research and projections, if we were able to combo, we would be able to have at least secured 60, maybe 65 per cent of that budget. We probably still would have lost some but we -- you know, we are able to cover some of that revenue. So it is very important that we are able to combo.

2312 As well, I would also like to mention that not having the opportunity to combo puts both stations at a disadvantage, as Bill said, because the 93.5 signal really is dedicated in the Toronto city, which CIDC-FM does not penetrate, and vice versa the other way around. So it is very important. In order to secure some kind of revenue, based on combo buys, in the face of multiple ownership, it really is a necessity.

2313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I look at the projected results for CIDC-FM, if your 93.5 application is approved, and if I looked at your historical 1999, and projected 2000-2001 if you have your amendment, and 93.5 on your proposal, you would improve CIDC's performance by half a million dollars.

2314 How much of this would be attributable to your recovery from the CISS change in format?

2315 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry. You said from the CIDC change of format?

2316 THE CHAIRPERSON: I may have misspoken myself. CISS change in format.

2317 And perhaps you can expand on -- my understanding is -- well, the numbers show, if you project to the end of 2000, you claim quite a difference, as a result of the change in format of CISS-FM, and you say somewhere that the full brunt of this will be experienced in 2000 and then you will recover.

2318 So I'm asking you, that extra five million that is projected, between 2000 and 2001, in revenues -- I'm talking about revenues -- from CIDC getting 93.5, what is the amount that is attributable to your recovery from CISS? Because, you know, presumably, there will be some impact of you on 93.5 on CIDC and that would -- should be negative. Some impact that will be positive because of the synergies, and some impact that will be positive because you will be recovering, you tell us, from the change in CISS-FM. So I would like you to expand on that.

2319 I'm going through this because all of this has been filed as an extra reason in the Commission coming to a decision as to who should get these frequencies which, I think we agreed earlier in the conversation, was part of the logic that would say, "Don't do this to my station. Give me the frequency first; and if not, don't give it to a competitor because this is what it's going to do to my station." So I want you to explain to us further how you arrive at all this.

2320 MR. KILBRIDE: Madam Commissioner, maybe I can answer that best.

2321 I think if we look at -- you were starting with Appendix D, I believe. That's the impact on CIDC if it receives the award of 93.5.

2322 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And I'm comparing it to your actual for 1999 and your projected from 2000, of CIDC, where the numbers are supposed to be lower because of the effects of the change in format of CISS-FM.

2323 MR. KILBRIDE: That's correct.

2324 And on that Appendix A that you just referred to, the projections -- and I'm going to use the number here, although I know it's confidential -- I think it's the $2.9 million number on Appendix A.

2325 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you can -- I have the numbers. You can speak in percentages, or whatever, to protect --

2326 MR. KILBRIDE: That absolute dollar difference is about 568,000. And we project about $318,000 of that arises through the association and the combo with 93.5. The balance of $250,000 is a result of the assumption that we would have an approval of the technical amendment to move the tower -- and that has an impact on CISS as well as other stations in the Toronto CMA.

2327 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we understand, now, what we are talking about. I'm just trying to sort out the reasonableness of these assumptions, since it's something put forward, as the reasons for licensing action and the choices we make.

2328 Now, if you look at -- Mr. Evanov, would you consider that your proposal on 93.5 will have any competitive effects on CIDC? Or slow down the recovery from the change of format by CISS?

2329 MR. EVANOV: If you are asking the negative impact -- I think that's what you are asking -- on CIDC, the answer is, no. We have to keep in mind that -- I think Bob will refer to the survey, in a minute, but there was a very few -- in terms of doing the research in the gay community, there was a very low percentage that listened to CIDC; the reason for that is they just can't get it, really, basically, in the City of Toronto.

2330 The other factor to weigh in would be the fact that 93.5 is not targeting any specific demo -- and definitely not the CIDC demo. We may play -- some of the music may be similar in certain day parts but no one from CIDC will tune in to hear that music. If they tune in to 93.5 it's for very -- other reasons of more of information. So we see no loss from CIDC to 93.5 whatsoever.

2331 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if we look at Appendix F, which outlines the effects on CIDC if the Commission were to grant 93.5 to someone else on a competitive format -- and, at the time, of course, you didn't know which applications were before the Commission; now you do -- what are the applications that you would consider a competitive format that would have the effects outlined in Appendix F, if I compare it to Appendix A, and shows a difference of a million in revenues between what you projected for CIDC to 2000 and 2001?

2332 So what are the formats that would be considered competitive and would lead to this result which, in fact, in your projection shows a loss for CIDC for seven years?

2333 Which one of the applications would you consider will have -- would have that effect, were they approved?

2334 MR. EVANOV: The applications that perhaps mirror the CIDC age demo and music would be, obviously, the Milestone application and the Auguste application, because of the music styles that they are playing, the target demo that they are -- the demo that they are targeting, which is very similar to that of CIDC.

2335 One of our concerns here is that there are only so many advertising agency dollars in the pot and if they are able to secure these, with the shares that they have projected -- which are extremely high; CIDC has a 1.8 share, or two share, in the Toronto CMA, and they have a four share or an eight share -- there won't be any dollars left for our radio station, and based on that, we made these projections.

2336 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if 93.5 were given to another format, let's say, a Christian station, what effect -- what would Appendix F look like?

2337 You know, you haven't done these, but what would be an order of magnitude? Would there be any?

2338 MR. EVANOV: It would be less of an impact. There would be some impact.

2339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now, let's look at CHOW -- now that we know how this works.

2340 So, the same thing: you file for CHOW -- am I saying this properly, CHOW? Yes. My linguistic skills are going; I was speaking Chippewa yesterday.

2341 So, for CHOW, you also filed results for 1999, expected results for 2000 -- and that's Appendix B. And then, in Appendix C, it shows what would happen if you receive 93.5 and no additional ethnic station were licensed. And then Appendix E shows the impact on CHOW if an ethnic station were licensed.

2342 In Appendix B, why are the assumptions for CIDC included as underlying assumptions for CHOW?

2343 MR. EVANOV: I'm sorry. Did you say B or C?

2344 THE CHAIRPERSON: Appendix B, where you have a statement of income and expenditure for CHOW, historical for 1999 and expected for 2000. And then, if you go to C, it shows you what the effect is if you get 93.5 and no additional ethnic station is licensed, but you seem to take into consideration the same key assumptions that you did for CIDC.

2345 What effects do they have on CHOW? For example, the change in formats of CISS, et cetera. Because they are not aggregated results. I'm just curious. Did you just simply retype the key assumptions? What effect does what happens to CIDC have on CHOW?

2346 MS LAURIGNANO: Are you referring to the assumptions in Appendix C, "Impacts on CHOW"?

2347 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the bottom of Appendix B, in projecting your results for CHOW, you take into consideration the results on CIDC via the change in format of CISS-FM. Why?

2348 Maybe there is no -- there are improved figures, between 1999 and 2000, so it may be you retyped these. You don't see any effect, do you, on what happens to CIDC because of CISS on CHOW? Is there a financial effect on CHOW?

2349 MS LAURIGNANO: No.

2350 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. So it's more -- do we all agree that this is just not really relevant?

2351 Now, in Appendix C, you look at what would happen if 93.5 went to CKMW and there was no ethnic licence -- additional ethnic licence granted.

2352 Why is there some improvement, as a result of that? Why is it not the status quo for CHOW? What's the effect of you having 93.5, on CHOW?

2353 MR. EVANOV: The improvement would come from the synergy of the three stations and the various cost savings. And, also, when you work with three stations, together, inevitability, it will lead to finding of additional revenue here or there -- maybe not in great abundance, but there's always extra contacts and referrals.

2354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I do note that it's a small -- it's a small change.

2355 Now, what if 740 were granted for a format other than ethnic? Do you see any impact at all on CHOW? Or is your concern only if it were licensed to an ethnic station?

2356 MR. EVANOV: I think our concern was that if it were licensed to an ethnic station.

2357 THE CHAIRPERSON: On the ethnic -- of the ethnic proposals, are there any that would be a worst-case scenario effect on CHOW? What would be the worst-case scenario of an additional ethnic service? Which would be the worst -- generate the worst negative change for CHOW?

2358 MR. EVANOV: Well, I think, basically, 740 being such a strong and -- frequency, that any ethnic, any successful applicant on that frequency would be able to pretty well dominate the ethnic market. And I think Mr. Lombardi put it very nicely in one of his interventions when he basically said that it would be the cannibalization of all the ethnic formats. All the richer formats will go to the much bigger, stronger signal and the weaker formats, or the weaker language groups, would remain on the old stations. So, basically, the winner would win all. In terms of ethnic applicants.

2359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there not some changes or alterations that can be made to be able to withstand competition if there's some added competition?

2360 MR. EVANOV: Well, AM 740 -- we are all familiar with that from the 99.1 hearings and everything -- has a very wide range, strong signal. CHOW-AM, we are licensed for Brampton and we provide, you know, service for that area and all around, in terms of ethnic programming, but we are one of six radio stations in Toronto that do ethnic, in the Toronto area. We are one kilowatt daytime and 250 watts at night -- that's not a very powerful station; you have light bulbs at home that are probably stronger than that -- and a 250-watt station, at night, can't penetrate buildings as it has to -- even Mississauga and Etobicoke, let alone the overall area. So, we are at an extreme disadvantage. Our producers -- the wealthier programs would gladly give that up to go to a much -- to the AM-740. There's no question --

--- Off microphone / Sans microphone

2361 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree, though, that 740, if indeed it's not able to provide a good quality signal in central Toronto, would have lesser impact because of -- depending on which ethnic population you are looking to serve? I suspect that there would be some in inner city that would not be well reached by 740.

2362 MR. EVANOV: Well, to be honest with you, 740 may have certain little holes here and there, maybe right downtown -- but, then, the ethnics don't live there; the gay population lives there.

2363 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's why you have such clever applications. On CHOW, do you do religious programming as well or is it all ethnic?

2364 MR. EMANOV: It's pretty well all ethnic. As a matter of fact it is all ethnic. And there is some ethnic religious programs but they're in the third line.

2365 THE CHAIRPERSON: But there is not a large proportion like there is for some other broadcaster also?

2366 MR. EMANOV: No.

2367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now are we being unfair if we characterize these scenarios as somewhat of a preemptive intervention against granting an ethnic license to another broadcaster?

2368 MS LAURIGNANO: No, I think we're being realistic. One of the reasons why we are so confused in trying to find the right piece of paper is that we took into account all the possible scenarios.

2369 This is a big deck of cards and it could be shuffled any number of ways and with that, of course, is the application for the amendments to the technical parameters of CIBC. So there's not a mathematician, but I am sure some accountants here could figure out the probabilities and statistics of how any number of things could come out.

2370 However, I believe that any competitor of CHOW would directly affected it. A bigger signal would definitely affect it. However, then again, being realistic, and knowing how it is, that could be cushioned by other considerations or other factors. So it really depends what the net affect of everything is.

2371 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we speak of meeting competitions and recovery, etc., could you give me some examples of what it is you can do to recover from the change in format of GISS-FM since you project that the severity of the effect will be felt in 2000 and then it will improve again? I don't want you to give me any business secrets, but what kind of broadcast you do to meet competition of that source when it happens?

2372 MS LAURIGNANO: Well, I think one thing we don't do is roll over and play dead. We are going to fight tooth and nails to intervene. Wait till you see my match next week, Madam Chairwoman.

2373 Basically, we are business people and we will do whatever we have to. You know, go out after different budget, after new sources of revenue, cut expenses. We'll come before you for that technical amendment, you know, so whatever --

2374 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about moving Toronto around?

2375 MS LAURIGNANO: No, actually, what we've done, is we've got -- well, we're giving up our efforts to move the city to where we are. So we are moving into the city hopefully to serve 93.5 if you allow us. So we're going to the city.

2376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Wonderful. Mr. Emanov, keep that lady on your team.

--- Laughter / Rires

2377 Now, if you look at, I think it's schedule 18, on the second page, you have a list of assumptions there, and it is just a small question, but I am curious.

2378 The following assumptions have also incorporated into these projections and the last bullet says that you assume that no other radio licences are issued beyond those posted in CRTC call 1999-119. I don't understand that. What does this mean?

2379 MR. EVANOV: Well, we have made our projections on the basis that there are probably three frequencies here that you may award and not ten.

2380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that we don't suddenly discover that there's three more last frequencies, okay. You have these elaborate scenarios about the effect on your stations of licensing action. But you've explained that, in your view, there would be a minimal impact on other stations and I guess it's with the former applicant -- or not with you anyway, but I think that you were in the room -- that I raised the concern that people take the whole pie of Toronto and say: "Well, my station is only going to get this amount of revenue. Even if you double it, it's going to be minimal."

2381 My suggestion that perhaps it doesn't work that way, that depending on your format you could be not affecting one station and affecting others more so that the impact increases proportionately. In the research by Cuto Communications -- it's at page 18 -- there is actually a comment that the stations most likely to be affected are TIFS-FM, CHOM-FM and CHFI-FM. I gather your position then is that it doesn't make sense from your comments earlier?

2382 MR. EVANOV: Mr. Linney will answer that.

2383 MR. LINNEY: Madam Commissioner, as the fall 1999 BBM shows, 92 per cent of the Toronto population listens to radio at some point during any given week.

2384 So no matter which application you licence on whatever, you are going to have an impact on existing radio stations and the question is to what degree. When my company put together the report on the research and when we worked with Polara and with CKMW on what the parameters of this project should be, one of the big question we wanted answered is "Who would be affected if we licensed the gay radio station? As you can see from the left-hand box -- if you have page 18 in front of you -- if we look at what the gay and lesbian definitely listen to at the moment, it's actually CHOM-FM and KISS-FM that would be affected the most.

2385 But again remember we are talking in terms of audience and what I would like to do is relate that back to hours tuned. It is true that an estimated 14 percent of our audience, for example, would come from CHOM-FM. In average on a given week in the Toronto market, hours tuned are in the vicinity of 21 and a half. We are projecting hours tuned from non-gay listeners of about four.

2386 So while we may -- I always use the term borrow -- while we may borrow these listeners, it would be for a very short period of time and probably for a specific program. And that's where we came to the conclusion that, yes, there would be an impact. We wanted to identify the stations for you that would be impacted, but our view is based on hours tuned. It wouldn't be a significant impact in terms of audience.

2387 MR. EVANOV: Just to continue with what Bob mentioned, I think Carmela and I would like to give a little clarification on the music issue that you raised before because we're not sure if it was understood or misunderstood or perhaps we didn't explain it properly.

2388 Carmela.

2389 MS LAURIGNANO: I just wanted a chance to clarify the sound of the station, Madam Chair. I believe you were wondering what the peak hours sounded like, and in between all our financial projections and scenarios, I have been working with that little piece of paper and we do have a list that we will give to you.

2390 I just wanted to sort of give you an idea of what it might sound like. At 10 o'clock, your alarm clock would go off and you would have heard a song which would be Tim Curse called, I Do The Rock, and now the news would come on. It's a five-minute newscast structured in the normal way and, of course, you would have your top stories of something that may have happened like local, international and national -- and then I talked about the more before, what's the more.

2391 So for example, if there were a story such as Bill C-25 in the news, that would probably be our lead story. If there were a fire at Church and Wellesley hopefully there were no casualties, but power was out or that kind of thing there, that definitely would be included. So you are getting a different type of perspective on the news or what the priority may be.

2392 You are also going to be hearing the local news, the local sports, yes, the Leafs and the Rafters and the Canadiens played, however the results of the hockey leagues last night, you know, which number of people were all for that and so and so made it in the final.

2393 Then there will probably be a commercial break and here again you would hear advertisers who haven't been on the air before and needs having you be a venue moving which would be a gay-friendly business that specialize in moving a household. You may hear (technical difficulty) in bad theatre, bad times live theatre which is a full and very vibrant artistic centre in the gay village that produces live theatre. That is going to be in and then the music really because of the full service in the cross range we would also do that. So between 7 a.m. and 8 a.m., you know, I mean I am going to do something. I like to ask, you know, Mr. Maidment, who is in the younger days: "Well what you like to hear between 7 and 8?"

2394 MR. MAIDMENT: Some of the things that I don't hear on radio are Enigma, Cafe Delmare and even road music, that I'd be interested in listening to.

2395 MS LAURIGNANO: Okay, and by the same token, we're calling on people like Mrs. Hamilton who is interested in the issue, who is a family member of a gay son and she stated in her own words before that her son's family and coworkers and everybody else is interested in listening. She is listening to see what her son might be listening to and I am not putting words in her own mouth but, you know, what kind of music would you like to hear, Mrs. Hamilton?

2396 MS HAMILTON: Barbara Streisand is my favourite.

2397 MR. LINNEY: Madam Chairperson, what the point that we're trying to make when you are asking what stations would we borrow listeners from brings us again back to the issue of music and the format.

2398 The research that we did show that one of the things that what the gay community in Toronto wants to hear is music diversity. There were five genres of music that registered in what would for a normal radio station be a market niche and the question is how do we serve them when we're trying to a market as diverse as the two people sitting behind me.

2399 THE CHAIRPERSON: That gives me an excellent opportunity to ask them questions. Ms Hamilton and Mr. Maidment, are you aware that the Commission doesn't regularly format on an ongoing basis any more and that like, applicants put a business plan together and a format together to offer diversity and so on. And we try to attempt to what extent this is likely to be, what they will do, so that in fact it will also diversity and will serve the specific demographic that they consider to be under-serve, which means we will be relying on you to keep CKMW to its promises. Are you satisfied with that?

2400 MR. MAIDMENT: That's one of the reasons that I think the advisory committee has been set up so that CKMW Radio Limited can get input from the community and, as we stated, from the community, we have members that have influence and connections in different areas whether it be youth, whether it be religion, whether it be social issues, whether it be police issues.

2401 Myself, as I said, I've been out in the gay community for 15 years. I'm very well connected and if I would bring something to that to keep CKMW well versed on what the issues are, there is tons of media out there from publications to get so much news and to keep the issues current, so that I would look for a radio station like this, so that I would get news that was relevant to me and my communities.

2402 MS HAMILTON: As for Keith, I have been pleased to be asked to be on the advisory board because we have the expertise and the experience. We know our gay children, we know the community. We have contacts in the community but we also have a foot in the straight community and that's so very important that you remember that that gay person has mother, father, sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles. That's a large community when you add those in together.

2403 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hamilton, I am not concerned about whether you or Mr. Maidment can help Mr. Evanov have a meaningful service to the identified community. I am asking you what your level of comfort is that, that's exactly what will be done over time because you will not be the licensee, you will not be on that company's board, and there is very little other than the commitment made today that from a legal perspective will keep CKMW to its commitment as to what the format will be on an ongoing basis.

2404 MR. MAIDMENT: If I could just say this and this question has been posed to me before. Because of the diverse community that I come from and I have worked with CKMW Radio Limited now for the last six months on this application to get it to where it is today, and there is nothing that I believe that would make me think that they would deviate from the format that they have told you and proposed in the application and that's why I believe wholeheartedly why I am here today.

2405 Because I am also involved in this and it's my name and my place that's out there, as community liaison officer with the gay community that people are going to see and I do have a good reputation with any community for being in so many different organizations and associations throughout the community for the last 15 years.

2406 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will keep Mr. Evanov's seat to the fire. We're going to give you the last word, Mr. Evanov. I have no further question. So go ahead.

2407 MR. EVANOV: I was simply going to add that we are very committed to this project. This was an undertaking that we've put a great deal of time into it. It's the applicants too and all the applications but this went beyond the normal application. This involved the whole community, something very different to bring forward to the Commission but our past track record should show that we've never abandoned a format, even in the face of all the odds, even in the face of losses.

2408 We created a niche format back in the early 90's at a radio station outside the CMA-FM and at that time, we took a trip from zero to 700,000 listeners with a dance format and some CHR and that was in the days before the hit factor was relaxed, and we did a phenomenal job there and we follow that to a CIDC.

2409 So we've never abandoned anything we've done. We stuck with it and now we have major competition in the form of multiple ownerships and as Carmela has stated earlier, we have no intention to abandon that. So if you give us this licence to serve the gay community, it will be served and we will stick with it.

2410 THE CHAIRPERSON: What Mr. Maidment is telling us is if you don't, for the first in your life, you will find Orangeville too close to Toronto.

2411 MS LAURIGNANO: As we said, and we, and as Professor Evanov already said, it would very nice to have a gay friendly place anywhere and on the dial which is just great and you can rest assured that we would do everything in our power to make the best use of the frequency and to serve the community, because one of the things that we see flowing from this is the social benefits that will flow as well.

2412 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Evanov, ladies and gentlemen. We will take a ten minute, ten to fifteen minute break to allow for a change in panel. Alors, nous reprendrons vers moins le quart.

2413 M. CUSSONS: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Et maintenant une demande présentée par La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto Inc. en vue d'obtenir une licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation et de radio FM communautaire de type A de langue française à Toronto. La nouvelle station serait exploitée à la fréquence 93.5 MHz, canal 228 A avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 457 watts.

2414 Le requérant propose de diffuser une variété d'émissions pour la communauté. Le conseil note également que la présente demande est en concurrence avec d'autres demandes inscrites à cette audience pour l'utilisation de la fréquence 93.5 MHz. Monsieur Martel.

2415 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bienvenue, Monsieur Martel et vos collègues.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

2416 M. MARTEL: Merci. Il y a des petits changements dans l'arrangement pour s'asseoir, alors je vais vous faire la présentation. Je m'appelle Christian Martel. Je suis le président du conseil d'administration, vice-président de l'ARC du Canada, qui est l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada, et de MICRO qui est le mouvement des intervenants en communication radio de l'Ontario. Dans la vie civile, je suis responsable des questions de gestion d'intérêt au sein du Conseil de gestion du gouvernement de l'Ontario.

2417 Comme vous le constaterez, notre conseil est bien représentatif de la communauté plurielle de Toronto et reflète les différents intérêts de la collectivité franco-ontarienne en général.

2418 Je vais vous présenter les membres de notre conseil d'administration et les gens qui sont assis avec nous.

2419 À ma gauche, Emna Dhahak, vice-présidente du Conseil et présidente de l'Association Maghrébine du Canada. Elle est spécialiste en linguistique et porte-parole du ministère des Transports du gouvernement de l'Ontario sur les questions touchant les politiques et les relations médiatiques en français.

2420 À sa gauche, Mohamed Boudjenane est membre du comité de programmation et membre du conseil. Il est également journaliste à l'émission PANORAMA de TFO.

2421 À ma droite, Monsieur Maurice McGraw qui est président de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.

2422 Derrière moi, sur l'autre table, Hélène Briand-Jacobs qui est membre du comité des bénévoles et elle est infirmière de formation et mère de famille à temps plein.

2423 À sa gauche, Denis Auger qui est membre du comité des bénévoles et de programmation, est bibliothechnicien de formation et travaille au service à la clientèle de Revenu Canada.

2424 À sa gauche, on a Aristote Kavungu qui est écrivain et enseignant.

2425 Et à sa gauche, on a monsieur André Duclos qui est coordonnateur de notre campagne de financement à la Coopérative Radiophonique.

2426 Et sur l'autre table à côté, nous avons monsieur Marius Ouellette qui est coordonnateur de l'Association provinciale MICRO.

2427 À sa droite, Serge Paquin qui est secrétaire général de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.

2428 Et à sa droite, monsieur Nicol Simard qui est membre du conseil et rédacteur en chef du journal Le Métropolitain. Il est également membre du comité de programmation.

2429 Laissez-moi tout d'abord vous remercier et vous féliciter pour la publication, vendredi dernier, de votre nouvelle politique sur la radio communautaire. Nous avons bien l'intention de citer des exemples de cette nouvelle politique et de l'utiliser pleinement si vous nous accordez cette fréquence. Inutile de réitérer que depuis une dizaine d'années, la communauté francophone de Toronto revendique une fréquence à Toronto.

2430 En 1988, nous avons fait des premières présentations au CRTC pour demander la fréquence 92,3. Ensuite, en 1991, nous avons tenté une diffusion temporaire d'une semaine et nous avons réussi à attirer autant la participation que l'attention de la communauté en demandant la fréquence 99.1 qui était alors vacante suite à la faillite du réseau CKO. Depuis, nous avons participé à toutes les étapes de demande de commentaires et d'appels de service.

2431 En 1996, lorsque nous avons appris que Radio Canada avait demandé le déménagement de sa fréquence AM, nous avions décidé de ne pas faire une demande de peur de perdre nos ressources. Toutefois, nous avons fait une demande pour une fréquence à Ste-Catharines. Cependant, notre dossier nous a été renvoyé, considéré incomplet.

2432 Depuis notre incorporation en 1991, plus d'une trentaine de bénévoles ont contribué de leur temps pour mener ce projet à terme. La Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto, son Conseil d'administration et ses membres profitent de cette occasion pour souligner le travail de trois personnes en particulier qui malheureusement ne verront pas l'avènement d'une radio communautaire à Toronto car elles sont parties avant terme, après avoir consacré temps et énergies à ce projet, sans en voir l'aboutissement.

2433 J'évoque avec regret le décès de Laure Rièse, Docteur émérite de l'Université Victoria, Serge Jacob, qui fut président de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto et président de l'ARC du Canada et Martha Macdonald qui fut trésorière de la Coopérative de 1991 à 1992.

2434 Le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto vise à valoriser et à maintenir l'identité francophone de l'Ontario tout en freinant l'assimilation et en procurant un outil moderne de communication à toute la communauté. Notre mandat vise à favoriser l'accessibilité des ondes, à offrir des activités éducatives et de formation, à offrir une programmation éducative locale et régionale de qualité sur des sujets qui touchent la communauté francophone dans toute sa diversité et sa composition. Notre radio contribuera aux activités de la communauté qui sont liées à la préservation de la langue et de la culture française.

2435 De plus, notre radio communautaire contribuera à promouvoir les avantages économiques et sociaux de la population francophone, en plus de sensibiliser la population franco-torontoise au potentiel économique de sa main-d'oeuvre bilingue et de ses ressources en français. Comme vous le dites si bien dans votre nouvelle politique, notre radio offrira un apport important à la diversité du système de radiodiffusion en offrant des émissions à la fois différentes et complémentaires de celles des autres stations.

ASSIMILATION

2436 Tant les Francophones que la langue française sont menacés en Ontario. Bien que la province de l'Ontario soit le lieu de résidence de plus de 542 000 personnes qui ont comme langue maternelle le français (5 per cent de la population ontarienne à peu près), la plus importante communauté francophone canadienne vivant à l'extérieur du Québec. (Selon les statistiques de Statistique Canada de 1996), soit la plus importante population de francophones des Communautés francophones et Acadienne du Canada. Il a fallu attendre en 1997 pour voir la création de 12 conseils scolaires francophones et ainsi obtenir après toutes les autres provinces notre gestion complète des écoles en français.

2437 Par conséquent, nous croyons fermement que le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto permettra de sauvegarder, d'enrichir et de renforcer la structure culturelle et socio-économique de la francophonie du Canada. Parce que le français, en tant que langue officielle, accuse un recul en Ontario depuis les trois derniers recensements, comme l'indique le tableau 1, notre projet revêt une importance capitale pour tous les franco-canadiens et les franco-canadiennes.

2438 L'assimilation fait des ravages en Ontario et cela aura des conséquences malheureusement irréversibles et irrémédiables si nous ne rehaussons pas la visibilité et la qualité de notre langue ainsi que sa musique dans notre univers médiatique.

2439 Le taux d'assimilation calculé par le transfert linguistique tel qu'enregistré en 1996 par Statistique Canada s'élève à 63,3 pour cent pour la région de Toronto et à 41,1 pour cent pour l'Ontario en entier, tel que le montre le tableau 2.

2440 Notre poids démographique diminue chaque année et la disparition de la langue française nous guette tous les jours. C'est pour cette raison que nous vous demandons de nous donner cet outil moderne de communication qui diffusera tous les jours de la musique. Par une programmation culturelle qui reflétera les besoins et la communauté dans toutes ses composantes, nous redonnerons le goût aux jeunes de conserver leur langue.

2441 L'Ontario français représenté à Toronto a le potentiel de rayonner sur la scène nationale et internationale. Nous avons pu le constater en 1999 lors des manifestations d'envergure nationale et internationale telles que l'Année de la Francophonie canadienne qui nous a permis de célébrer avec les autres provinces la contribution des francophones d'un océan à l'autre et la tenue à Moncton, au Nouveau-Brunswick, du Huitième Sommet de la francophonie.

2442 Nous sommes convaincus que notre radio en utilisant la nouvelle technologie numérique permettra à l'Ontario de devenir un tremplin pour promouvoir le potentiel économique, social et culturel de la province sur la scène nationale et internationale. Un de ces événements est sans doute la candidature de Toronto pour accueillir les Jeux Olympiques d'été de 2008. Ce genre d'activités donnerait l'occasion à Toronto et à tout l'Ontario de montrer au monde entier ses biens et services et de retirer les avantages économiques de ce ces activités, et cela dans les deux langues officielles.

2443 La Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto se propose de favoriser l'épanouissement de la communauté francophone dans la plus grande métropole du Canada en élaborant une programmation qui mettra en valeur les créativités artistiques canadiennes. Notre projet suggère une programmation canadienne beaucoup plus importante que tous les autres groupes à présenter devant vous au cours de ces audiences. Notre programmation, tel que le spécifie votre politique, mettra l'accent sur des informations et des analyses axées sur les activités francophones de la métropole et de l'Ontario français, ce qui intéressa la collectivité que nous voulons desservir dans la langue de la minorité officielle.

2444 Elle se fera une fenêtre ouverte sur le reste du monde francophone en donnant des informations du monde francophone aux quatre coins de la planète avec un point de vue canadien en plus d'offrir une tribune pour les différents points de vue de notre communauté multiculturelle et multiethnique.

2445 Si on devait nous comparer à la communauté de langue officielle minoritaire de la ville de Montréal qui possède plus de dix services radiophoniques dans sa deuxième langue, la communauté francophone de Toronto, tant qu'à elle, n'en a aucune, sauf le service de base du radiodiffuseur public de Radio Canada.

2446 Plusieurs membres de notre communauté nous avouent qu'ils passent plusieurs années sans savoir qu'il y a 185 organismes désignés, pourvoyeurs de services en français à Toronto, et sans découvrir qu'il y a une gamme variée d'activités en français. La communauté francophone est une communauté d'accueil pour les quelques 1 200 nouveaux arrivants qui arrivent à Toronto et qui ne maîtrisent pas complètement l'anglais.

2447 Notre programmation sera axée sur la musique, car la musique touche tout le monde, petits et grands, et devient un outil par excellence qui nous permettra d'éduquer les auditeurs sur notre histoire, nos organismes, les biens et services offerts en plus de faire du développement économique communautaire. Aider la veuve et l'orphelin, les jeunes entrepreneurs, faire connaître les artistes locaux, provinciaux, nationaux et internationaux, dans le souci d'une programmation variée et d'une grande diversité, tel que le demande votre nouvelle politique.

2448 Nous allons créer des emplois et augmenter les chances de fonctionnement de toutes les entreprises canadiennes qui ont leur siège social à Toronto en offrant des annonces sur les emplois bilingues disponibles à Toronto tel que le mentionne l'article 3.d.(iii) de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.

2449 Le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto permettra de faire valoir le point de vue des femmes, des enfants, des personnes âgées, de mettre en valeur les droits de la personne et le caractère multiracial et multiculturel de Toronto, qui répondent à leurs besoins et qui servent leurs intérêts tel que le spécifie la Loi.

2450 Dans notre étude de marché, nous avons spécifiquement tenu compte de cette pluralité en exigeant un échantillonnage des trois groupes bien distincts: les Franco-Canadiens de souche qui comptent pour 22 pour cent de notre échantillonnage, les Franco-Torontoises et les Franco-Torontois d'origine étrangère qui comptent pour 38 pour cent et les francophiles ou anglophones bilingues qui comptent pour 40 pour cent. D'après les résultats, 48 pour cent affirment que nous sommes mal desservis en médias en information francophone et 90,9 pour cent estiment que la création d'une radio communautaire correspond à un besoin de la communauté tel que nous le montre le tableau 3. Notre auditoire potentiel compte 76 500 parlants français et 339 000 personnes bilingues pour un marché potentiel de 415 000 personnes.

2451 Une dichotomie bien flagrante: un francophone qui vit, travaille et s'épanouit à Toronto est de loin mieux informé de ce qui se passe au Québec ou en Outaouais que sur ce qui se passe dans sa propre communauté. Une étude récente sur le contenu des médias anglophones écrits a démontré que les médias anglophones ne parlent jamais de la minorité francophone à l'extérieur du Québec, mais par contre, ils rapportent les prises de position et les points de vue des dirigeants de la communauté anglophone minoritaire du Québec.

2452 En 1997, les forums de concertation de l'ACFO, qui est l'Association canadienne française de l'Ontario, de la région de Toronto, ont identifié la COMMUNICATION comme le principal problème à régler par les organismes francophones du Grand Toronto. La radio communautaire proposée par la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto devra améliorer davantage la promotion de toutes les activités de ces organismes et des entreprises qui s'adressent aux francophones et la coordination de l'Offre de services aux francophones et aux francophiles de la grande région de Toronto. Le manque de visibilité et de ressources empêchent notre communauté de développer son plein potentiel économique et culturel tel que le stipule la loi sur la radiodiffusion.

2453 Nous sommes convaincus que le partenariat et les échanges de services que nous proposons de conclure avec TFO, le radiodiffuseur éducatif, nous permettront d'atteindre une masse critique de ressources qui débouchera sur une programmation canadienne originale et différente qui répond aux besoins de toutes les composantes de la communauté. Cette entente nous permettra de présenter des émissions tant culturelles qu'éducatives comme le stipule l'article 3 de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.

2454 De plus, grâce au partenariat que nous avons conclu avec le Réseau francophone d'Amérique de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada, nous ferons appel de façon notable aux producteurs canadiens qui composent la grande famille franco-canadienne.

2455 Les nombreuses lettres d'appui envoyées par des organismes francophones nationaux démontrent l'importance de notre projet dans la lutte pour la conservation de la seconde langue officielle du Canada tant pour le présent que pour l'avenir. Nous ne nommerons que le Conseil de la Coopération de l'Ontario et ses 432 000 membres, l'Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario, l'Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française, l'Association des enseignantes et enseignants franco-ontariens, l'Association Franco-Ontarienne des Conseils Scolaires Catholiques, l'Association des professionnels de la chanson et de la musique franco-ontarienne, la Fédération culturelle canadienne-française et plusieurs organismes privés communautaires sans compter de nombreux individus.

2456 La communauté francophone est un microscope de la communauté anglophone dont plus de 52 pays y sont représentés, et il nous est regrettable de constater qu'au niveau des médias écrits, nous n'avons ni quotidien en français ni chaîne de télévision locale. Toronto n'est doté que de deux hebdomadaires. Nous comptons heureusement parmi nos partenaires financiers le journal Le Métropolitain et la Chaîne française de TVOntario, la télévision éducative TFO. Cela démontre l'appui important de partenaires du milieu des médias.

2457 Plusieurs organismes officiels de Toronto et de l'Ontario ne comprennent pas que le droit de s'exprimer dans une autre langue officielle du Canada n'est pas une faveur que l'on donne au même titre qu'une subvention, selon leur bon vouloir. Comme l'a démontré la cause Beaulac à Vancouver et la cause Monfort à Ottawa, les services en français sont des droits protégés par la Charte canadienne des droits et ceci est enchâssé dans la Constitution canadienne.

2458 Être un peuple fondateur n'a pas de signification si personne ne peut en expliquer les répercussions à la population, et c'est ce que propose de faire le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

2459 Nous tenons à remercier l'Association canadienne française de l'Ontario de Toronto pour son appui, le Mouvement des intervenants en communication de l'Ontario au MICRO qui compte sur le projet de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto pour lancer des projets de grande envergure et de prendre la place que les Franco-Ontariens et les Franco-Torontois sont en droit d'avoir, de même que l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada et le Réseau francophone d'Amérique qui n'attend que Toronto pour rayonner partout au Canada. Merci.

2460 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci Monsieur Martel. Madame Noël, s'il vous plaît.

2461 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bonne après-midi, Monsieur Martel. Je ne reconnais pas tous les noms, là, mais bonne après-midi aussi à tous ceux qui vous accompagnent. Monsieur Martel, j'ai une série de questions pour vous et si je ne vous pose pas de question sur certains aspects de votre présentation, c'est parce qu'on juge probablement qu'on a suffisamment d'information. Alors, les questions que je vais vous poser sont là où on a des interrogations quant à votre demande. Alors je vais regrouper mes questions sur un certain nombre de rubriques, si vous voulez me donner trente secondes pour me retrouver dans mes papiers.

2462 On va d'abord parler de vos études de marché. On va parler de l'aspect financier de votre demande. On va parler de l'utilisation de la fréquence que vous avez demandée, soit 93,5 et de l'aire desserte que vous visez. On va parler de votre programmation. On va parler de la formation et de la participation des bénévoles dans l'opération de votre projet de station de radio et on va parler de votre politique de programmation.

2463 Alors, au sujet des études de marché, vous nous avez cité des études qui datent de 1991, si ma mémoire est exacte, et en réponse à une lettre de lacune du 15 novembre portant sur ces études auprès des annonceurs et des auditeurs, vous indiquez avoir effectué un sondage téléphonique auprès de 704 personnes en utilisant le même questionnaire qui avait été utilisé en 1991. Ce sondage aurait été fait entre novembre 1996 et mars 1997.

2464 Pouvez-vous nous dire comment s'est déroulé le sondage. Quelle méthode d'échantillonnage vous avez utilisée et de quelle manière l'échantillon que vous avez choisi était-il représentatif de la réalité et des besoins radiophoniques de la région de Toronto?

2465 M. MARTEL: Le sondage qu'on a effectué en 1996 a été fait à partir de listes de personnes qui avaient servi lors du premier sondage. Alors il y a une majorité de personnes qui étaient les mêmes personnes qui avaient été interrogées en 1991, qui ont été interrogées en 1996 et 1997. Et ce qui est intéressant de mentionner, de souligner, c'est qu'il y a plusieurs des pourcentages qui ont été mentionnés dans l'étude de 1991 qui ont augmenté dans les chiffres de 1996.

2466 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Pourquoi ce suivi? Vous avez vérifié si l'intérêt des auditeurs avait changé depuis 1991. Moi, il ne semble pas que le suivi ait été effectué auprès des annonceurs. Pouvez-vous rassurer le conseil à l'effet que les entreprises anglophones et francophones sont encore intéressées à annoncer sur les ondes de la station proposée?

2467 M. MARTEL: C'est vrai qu'on n'a pas vérifié au niveau des annonceurs. Cependant, ce que je pourrais dire, c'est que les circonstances maintenant sont encore meilleures au niveau des annonceurs puisque, grâce à l'addition de 12 conseils scolaires francophones en Ontario, on a maintenant des conseils scolaires qui ont des pouvoirs d'achat importants pour le placement média qui cherchent à rejoindre les jeunes et les personnes pour les inscriptions dans les écoles francophones et aussi plusieurs organismes nouveaux qui se sont installés à Toronto, suite à...

2468 Il y a eu la création de d'autres organismes, comme le Collège des Grands Lacs et des institutions francophones ont augmenté à Toronto et, parce que Toronto est une région désignée bilingue selon la loi provinciale, tous ces organismes doivent faire la promotion de leurs biens et services en français. Présentement, il n'y a personne qui peut répondre à leurs besoins vraiment au niveau de la publicité.

2469 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors parce que Radio Canada, en fait la radio de Radio Canada ne fait pas de publicité?

2470 M. MARTEL: C'est ça. C'est que à moins qu'un de ces groupes ne demande à Radio Canada de placer de la publicité, Radio Canada ne vend pas de publicité, ne fait pas d'offre active auprès des annonceurs.

2471 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Dans votre réponse du 15 novembre, vous nous indiquez que vous n'avez pas de ressources financières pour effectuer une autre étude de marché auprès des annonceurs. Cependant, sur le site Internet de l'Association des radios communautaires francophones, de l'ARC, il est indiqué que vous êtes membre de cet organisme mais que celle-ci offre des services de consultation dont, entre autres, l'analyse des études de marché. Est-ce que vous avez consulté le service à ce propos-là, les services de l'ARC? Et si oui, quelles sont les conclusions que vous en retirez?

2472 M. MARTEL: On est en communication, je dirais, pas journalière, mais hebdomadaire, avec l'ARC du Canada qui nous ont aidés grâce à leurs services de consultation à développer toute notre demande au CRTC. Au niveau des études de marché, la raison pourquoi on mentionnait qu'on n'avait pas les moyens de faire une étude semblable à celle qu'on a fait en 1991, c'est qu'en 1991, en se basant sur les meilleures pratiques qui ont été suggérées par l'ARC du Canada, on avait fait un appel d'offres et on avait essayé de choisir la compagnie qui avait le plus de crédibilité auprès des annonceurs et auprès du CRTC et cette compagnie qui avait été choisie en 1991, Impact Recherche, et la composante de recherche de la compagnie Cossette Communication, qui est l'agence de communication marketing la plus importante au Canada.

2473 Alors notre réponse était dans le sens que de refaire une autre étude de 35 000 $ comme on avait fait en 1991, on trouvait que l'étude qu'on a faite démontrait très bien qu'il y a un besoin qui n'est pas répondu par personne d'autre dans ces études et qu'on n'avait pas besoin de faire une deuxième étude pour le démontrer.

2474 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En fait, la situation au point de vue de la publicité n'a pas changé, c'est ça que vous venez de dire. Il n'y a personne d'autre qui en fait.

2475 M. MARTEL: Exactement.

2476 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant on va aller aux chiffres. Alors, vous allez tirer vos revenus de différentes sources, notamment de la publicité, des revenus de production et de co-production et des revenus que j'appellerais des revenus divers pour les fins de cette partie-ci. Alors, si on va aux revenus de publicité, vous avez ajouté des chiffres qui ressortaient de l'étude de 1991 en ajoutant un facteur de croissance de 3 pour cent et vos calculs cependant s'arrêtent à 1996. Alors on se demande pourquoi vous n'avez pas rajouté des chiffres au moins jusqu'à 1998 parce 1996, c'est quand même quatre ans, si on se place aujourd'hui, là. C'est il y a quatre ans. Comment vous avez déterminé votre facteur de croissance de 3 pour cent? Sur quelle base est-ce que vous avez élaboré votre hypothèse?

2477 M. MARTEL: Premièrement, je dois vous dire qu'au niveau des chiffres de publicité, on a décidé d'être très conservateur et à toutes les fois que notre étude mentionnait un minimum et un maximum, on s'est toujours basé sur le minimum. Alors la raison pourquoi qu'on a choisi 3 pour cent, c'est basé principalement sur le facteur de croissance annoncé de Statistique Canada et une des raisons pourquoi on a arrêté en 1996, principalement, c'est que selon Statistique Canada et les observateurs économiques, là, c'est à ce moment-là vraiment qu'on est sorti de la récession et où l'appareil économique canadien, dont Toronto est la métropole en grande partie, a commencé à redémarrer et à générer des pourcentages de 3 à 4 pour cent qui se sont maintenus.

2478 Alors la raison pourquoi on a arrêté en 1996, c'est en grande partie parce qu'on était sorti de la récession et qu'on a essayé de garder les chiffres au minimum, conservateurs.

2479 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Conservateurs?

2480 M. MARTEL: Oui.

2481 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'aimerais vous poser une question aussi sur la proportion entre vos revenus, vous dites de publicité locale et de publicité nationale. Vous avez dans vos hypothèses une estimation de vos revenus de publicité nationale nette en vous basant sur des revenus, la proportion sur vos revenus de publicité locale de 11 pour cent. Est-ce que vous avez comparé vos données avec celles des stations de l'ARC et comment avez-vous déterminé un niveau de 11 pour cent?

2482 M. MARTEL: Oui, on a comparé surtout avec des stations en Ontario qui sont membres de l'ARC du Canada, entre autres, la station CHOD à Cornwall, qui est dans un marché urbain comme nous et qui est quand même un projet sur lequel on s'est beaucoup basé. Et la proportion de 11 pour cent est quelque chose qui, est un chiffre qui nous est conseillé et qui a été vérifié par les gens de l'ARC du Canada.

2483 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et maintenant si on passe à vos revenus de production et de co-production. Vos projections pour les revenus de co-production et de production sont exactement les mêmes, c'est-à-dire que chaque année, si vous 25 000 en production, vous avez 25 000 en co-production puis ça monte tranquillement jusqu'à la fin de la période de licence. Pouvez-vous nous dire pourquoi vous êtes arrivé avec des chiffres qui sont finalement identiques aux deux niveaux?

2484 M. MARTEL: Bien, c'est un peu une coïncidence, là, mais comme je vous indiquais tout à l'heure, on a essayé de toujours calculer nos chiffres au minimum possible, c'est-à-dire d'être très conservateurs dans la prévision à long terme sachant que toutes nos consoeurs qui ont passé par les étapes de licences et qui sont entrées en ondes ont eu peut-être une augmentation de ventes et de co-production les deux premières années et ensuite, bon, parce que c'était moins nouveau, le niveau a baissé et le niveau s'est plutôt stabilisé. Alors, c'est une des raisons pourquoi on a décidé de garder le plancher toujours de façon conservatrice au même pour la production à long terme.

2485 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: (Difficulté technique) un chiffre pour vos revenus de production puis ensuite vous (difficulté technique) vos revenus de co-production là-dessus. Parce que là, je trouvais que les coïncidences étaient en l'an trois, 26 523, je trouvais que la coïncidence était un peu forte.

2486 M. MARTEL: Bien, pour préciser, c'est que le fait qu'on va pouvoir se payer seulement que huit employés permanents et que le reste de la programmation va être fait par des bénévoles, on ne veut pas surcharger nos employés permanents qui sont les experts dans la production et la co-production. Et dans ce sens-là, c'est la raison pourquoi on est conservateurs mais si les revenus augmentaient, on pourrait se permettre plus de personnel et, à ce moment-là, on serait en mesure d'accepter plus de projets de co-production.

2487 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va passer à vos autres revenus, Monsieur Martel. Non, avant ça, je vais vous poser une dernière question sur vos revenus de co-production. Pouvez-vous me vérifier la source de vos revenus de co-production? Est-ce qu'il s'agit d'émissions co-produites avec d'autres stations et revendues par la suite ou est-ce que vous avez des négociations? Avez-vous entamé des négociations avec des tiers avec lesquels vous envisagez de conclure des ententes de co-production? Ils proviennent d'où vos revenus de co-production?

2488 M. MARTEL: Bien, principalement, les projets de co-production vont nous venir du Réseau francophone d'Amérique et de l'ARC du Canada. Déjà, l'ARC du Canada a développé une expertise importante dans la co-production et si je nommais quelques exemples. Il y a deux séries qui reviennent à chaque année; une qui est le concours pour la promotion des langues officielles, qui est un concours où les gens doivent téléphoner lorsqu'ils entendent une chronique qui est faite spécialement au niveau des langues officielles et les gens peuvent participer à un concours et gagner un prix. Alors toutes les stations de l'ARC participent à cette co-production. Également, il y a une co-production qui est faite en collaboration avec l'ACDI, qui présente des points de vue canadiens à des stations qui sont en Afrique ou dans d'autres pays et vice versa.

2489 Il y a la possibilité de recevoir des émissions qui sont produites par des stations consoeurs dans d'autres pays qu'on peut diffuser, et le temps d'antenne et le développement des émissions est payé par une subvention de l'ACDI en co-production.

2490 M. PAQUIN: Si je peux rajouter là-dessus comment les co-productions, la production à l'ARC du Canada, actuellement, on a un budget d'environ 400 000 $ avec différents partenaires gouvernementaux, les agences pour produire des émissions souscrites qui sont rediffusées sur les ondes. Donc les radios sont rémunérées pour la diffusion mais on fait appel aussi aux radios pour la production parce qu'on déborde un peu au bureau chef à Ottawa.

2491 Donc, en moyenne, annuellement, chaque radio reçoit environ 20 000 $ net des revenus de production et dans le cas des stations qui font des co-productions, c'est-à-dire qui vont plus produire au lieu de la pègre de réseau RFA à Ottawa. Bien comme dans le cas de Toronto, on pourrait faire appel à Toronto, et, là, il y a des frais naturellement, là, des revenus qui viennent pour justement produire les émissions. Donc, actuellement, on peut déjà dire qu'en moyenne, sur les 18 stations, ça varie à peu près à 20 000 $ de revenus nets de production, qu'on appelle nous des émissions souscrites.

2492 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, vos autres sources de revenus. Vous projetez des revenus de cotisation de membres de discothèque mobile, radio-son, spectacles. Mais tous ces revenus-là, divers, ne totalisent qu'environ 11 pour cent de vos revenus totaux, alors que dans plusieurs stations communautaires, on va chercher des revenus de cette nature-là qui roulent entre 45, 46 pour cent. Pourquoi est-ce que votre station est différente des autres stations communautaires?

2493 M. MARTEL: Bien, je pense que c'est toujours dans la même thématique, on est très conservateur dans nos estimées. Au niveau des disques et cassettes et aussi des spectacles, comme c'est quelque chose qui n'existe pas beaucoup à Toronto, quelqu'un qui veut s'acheter des disques à Toronto, en français, il y a seulement un point de vente et c'est vraiment notre intention de développer ce marché-là. Mais comme on n'a pas fait d'étude de marché spécifique sur la demande et le fait aussi que, de plus en plus, on peut se procurer des choses via l'Internet et par d'autres moyens de mise en marché, alors on a été...

2494 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Conservateur.

2495 M. MARTEL: Conservateur.

2496 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous place les mots dans la bouche. Si vos projections de revenus de publicité locale n'étaient pas atteintes, pensez-vous que vous avez d'autres moyens pour aller chercher des fonds dont vous avez besoin pour opérer?

2497 M. MARTEL: Principalement, dans notre plan B pour l'atteinte de publicité, on a toute une stratégie qui a été développée avec notre association provinciale. Alors on a le coordonnateur de ce projet-là, Monsieur Marius Ouellette, qui pourrait vous expliquer notre objectif provincial qui est d'aller chercher 25 000 $ pour chacune des radios avec ce projet provincial, mais je vais laisser Marius vous l'expliquer.

2498 M. OUELLETTE: Si vous permettez Madame. C'est que MICRO, d'abord, très brièvement, pour savoir qui c'est. C'est l'association d'organismes qui rassemble sept membres, sept radios membres, dont quatre sont en ondes et trois au niveau d'implantation. Alors le financement des radios, tout le monde, on le sait, vous l'avez très bien dit tantôt, c'est qu'il y a deux volets à ça pour nos radios communautaires. Il y a la levée de fonds et la vente de publicité. Alors pour répondre à la préoccupation actuelle, c'est qu'il est intéressant de noter à quel point MICRO se dote actuellement, c'est-à-dire les radios membres se dotent d'un moyen à travers MICRO pour être en mesure vraiment de chercher d'autres moyens de financement.

2499 Et puis permettez-moi de juste ajouter ici quand même en plus des nouvelles approches d'activités de levées de fonds, c'est qu'il y a aussi l'établissement de partenariats et à des niveaux tels, par exemple, le gouvernement provincial. C'est que RFA, le Réseau francophone d'Amérique décroche des fonds, comme on a dit tantôt, mais également aussi des ventes de publicité qui retournent dans les radios membres qui rendent des services. Et actuellement, et c'est grâce à l'Office de la francophonie, c'est que nous nous présentons la semaine prochaine devant des acheteurs de publicité pour les gouvernements.

2500 Et puis l'objectif, comme vient de le dire Monsieur Martel, c'est que pour chaque radio membre, on vise à aller chercher 25 000 $ par année de revenus supplémentaires avec ces partenariats. Et ce ne sont pas des subventions, ce sont des services que nous offrons à ces différents ministères et organismes gouvernementaux. Et permettez-moi d'ajouter, c'est qu'on s'aperçoit que dans nos communautés il y a une saturation de levées de fonds.

2501 La grande communauté de Toronto, bien, elle doit probablement souffrir un peu de la même chose que les plus petites communautés où sont implantées nos radios. Alors, c'est qu'à ce moment-là, on établit aussi des partenariats avec des organismes de la communauté au lieu de multiplier les levées de fonds. Alors de la même manière on l'a fait dans nos communautés, de la même manière on veut le faire avec les services gouvernementaux et dans un premier temps, on vise 25 000 $ par année pour chacune de nos radios. Et dans un deuxième temps, et par après, on croit que ce chiffre va augmenter considérablement.

2502 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et Monsieur Martel, pour enchaîner là-dessus, ce 25 000 $ ne serait pas dans vos projections de revenus à l'heure actuelle?

2503 M. MARTEL: Non.

2504 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On va parler de vos dépenses. Dans votre plan d'affaires, vous allouez environ 6 pour cent de vos revenus aux dépenses de programmation. Est-ce que ce niveau de dépenses-là vous apparaît, je comprends que vous allez travailler avec des bénévoles, mais ça ne vous apparaît pas un peu mince comme budget comparativement à la moyenne des stations communautaires? Vu que, d'après ce que vous nous dites, vos revenus de publicité sont élevés, la publicité, votre proportion, en tout cas, de publicité locale est élevée, comment expliquez-vous que vous dépensiez si peu au niveau, au chapitre de la programmation?

2505 M. MARTEL: On espère, au niveau de la programmation, utiliser beaucoup la nouvelle technologie numérique et, dans ce sens-là, on n'a pas beaucoup d'expérience pour juger des dépenses d'exploitation au même titre qu'une station traditionnelle qui fonctionne avec des rubans. Le fait qu'avec la technologie numérique, on a plus de ruban vraiment à manipuler, à acheter, à recycler des fois, c'est un des facteurs.

2506 Comme le Réseau francophone d'Amérique va nous procurer la possibilité de se rallier au réseau si jamais un de nos bénévoles ne se présente pas ou que notre programmation régulière ne peut pas être diffusée. De toute façon, on prévoit faire 88 heures de programmation locale pour la première année, et les autres 32 ou 34 heures seraient comblées par le Réseau francophone d'Amérique. Je pense que Maurice McGraw, ici, voudrait peut-être rajouter quelque chose là-dessus.

2507 M. McGRAW: Si vous permettez, Madame la Conseillère. Au niveau du service du Réseau francophone d'Amérique, un service de l'ARC du Canada, le réseau entend diffuser 24 heures sur 24 dans les prochains mois. Donc, la possibilité, il y a diverses possibilités qui s'offrent pour Toronto, ici, dont la possibilité d'enregistrements d'émissions spécialisées ou d'autres populaires, etc., possibilité de faire une banque aussi d'émissions et lorsqu'un problème surviendrait au niveau de la programmation locale ou un manque au niveau de la programmation locale, pourra venir combler cette programmation-là.

2508 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Encore au chapitre des dépenses, cette fois-là, on va aller aux dépenses d'administration. Celle-là nous semble relativement beaucoup plus élevée que ce à quoi on est habitué. 63,9 pour cent de votre budget de l'année trois, c'est assez haut. Et une grande partie de ces dépenses-là seront des dépenses de salaires. Pouvez-vous nous expliquer pourquoi il y a une si large part de votre budget qui est consacrée aux salaires et avantages sociaux? Et en quoi est-ce que ça consiste? Est-ce qu'il y a des bonis? Est-ce qu'il y a... C'est formé de quoi ces salaires-là?

2509 M. MARTEL: Je pense que la principale raison c'est qu'à la troisième année le taux de salaires augmente beaucoup, c'est principalement que pour les deux premières années, on va faire appel à des projets d'emploi et dans ce sens-là, on n'aura pas à assumer complètement les salaires. Et pour revenir à votre question de tout à l'heure sur la programmation, je pense que c'est une des raisons également qui fait que le 11 pour cent normal de coûts de la programmation inclut les salaires alors que pour nos deux premières années, parce que les salaires vont être presque entièrement comblés par des projets d'emploi pour la création de nouveaux emplois, les coûts d'administration et les coûts de salaires à l'intérieur de la programmation n'ont pas été calculés pour les deux premières années. Alors c'est pour ça que la troisième année on va vivre selon nos moyens et si on a beaucoup de succès et qu'on est capable d'avoir plus de personnel, on va se payer plus de personnel et on va également faire plus de services à la communauté et plus de programmation.

2510 Mais c'est la raison principale pourquoi à partir de la troisième année, la charge des salaires va être complètement absorbée par nos revenus.

2511 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça, c'est des subventions de Ressources humaines Canada, de 20 000 $ puis de 25 000 $, dans la première et dans la deuxième année?

2512 M. MARTEL: Exactement.

2513 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, vous nous avez indiqué que si vous faisiez des profits ou enfin des excédents de recettes sur les déboursés... Vous avez pas le droit de faire de profit.

2514 M. MARTEL: On n'a jamais dit qu'on n'a pas le droit de faire de profit. On n'a pas le droit...

2515 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous n'avez pas le droit d'appeler ça des profits.

2516 M. MARTEL: Bien, on n'a pas le droit de...

2517 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous êtes sans but lucratif.

2518 M. MARTEL: On n'a pas le droit de les utiliser comme nos amis du secteur privé. On doit les réinvestir dans notre entreprise et dans notre programmation.

2519 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je peux vous poser comme question: Qu'est-ce que vous allez faire si vous avez des surplus d'opération?

2520 M. MARTEL: On espère qu'on en aura et qu'on va pouvoir faire plus de services à la communauté, plus de programmation locale. On espère de pouvoir aussi donner des services aux communautés qui vont être un peu en bordure de notre rayon de diffusion, c'est-à-dire la grande banlieue, là, lorsqu'on parle de Markham et Richmond Hill et Oshawa et Oakville, qui nous ont toujours supportés dans notre projet mais avec le rayon de diffusion, a limité de cette fréquence-là. On espère que si on fait des profits, on va pouvoir quand même leur donner des services et augmenter l'offre dans la programmation.

2521 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça m'amène à un autre aspect des questions que j'ai à vous poser, soit l'utilisation de la fréquence 93,5, l'aire de desserte que vous envisagez. D'abord, je vais vous poser la question que vous entendue poser en anglais à ceux qui sont déjà passés avant vous mais je vais vous la poser en français. En quoi votre proposition constitue-t-elle la meilleure utilisation possible de la fréquence 93,5 MHz?

2522 M. MARTEL: Bien, on considère que le fait qu'il n'existe pas de station francophone à Toronto et que la Loi de la radiodiffusion est très claire au niveau de l'équité des deux langues officielles, au niveau du service radiophonique et de même que la mention qui est faite dans la nouvelle loi sur la radio communautaire, on considère que le fait qu'on propose 75 pour cent de programmation en français et le fait qu'on s'attende d'excéder la programmation locale canadienne de tous les autres projets qui vous sont présentés lors de ces audiences publiques vraiment parle en faveur de notre projet et également le fait que l'assimilation comme on l'a mentionné dans notre présentation, fait tellement de ravages importants dans notre communauté que si on ne peut pas avoir un moyen de communication moderne pour essayer d'améliorer l'offre de français à Toronto, je pense que notre communauté va disparaître dans quelques années.

2523 M. McGRAW: Je me permettrais, Madame la Conseillère, de complémenter la réponse de Christian à ce niveau-là. On a plusieurs exemples dans nos radios communautaires au niveau du freinage de l'assimilation. Nos radios ont contribué énormément à ce freinage-là. Si on regarde la situation dans d'autres populations où la communauté française devait écouter la radio anglaise. Lorsque nos radios se sont développées, sont venues, sont entrées dans ces communautés-là, les Francophones se sont mis à écouter les radios communautaires et permettent de décrocher des cotes d'écoute très importantes de Francophones. Donc c'est de freiner cette assimilation-là qui se passe dans la communauté ontarienne.

2524 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Si le conseil décide d'octroyer la fréquence 93,5 MHz à une autre requérante ou même de la laisser vacante pour une raison quelconque, est-ce que vous envisageriez la possibilité d'implanter votre projet sur la bande AM? Et, en fait, considérez-vous que la bande AM pourrait être une solution pour votre radio?

2525 M. MARTEL: En 1994, on a assisté à une réunion avec des gens d'Industrie Canada, des gens de Patrimoine canadien et des gens de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada parce que le projet de Toronto, c'est principalement l'aspect technique qui nous a retardés depuis notre incorporation en 1991. C'est vraiment l'aspect technique du nombre, du petit nombre de fréquence FM à Toronto, et on avait posé la question aux gens de Patrimoine canadien et d'Industrie Canada qui sont les principaux bailleurs de fonds pour le programme d'immobilisation des radios communautaires en milieu minoritaire, et on considérait que, c'est une option qu'on avait regardé et à cause du coût des terrains dans la région de Toronto, un groupe communautaire, avec des ressources limitées comme nous, ne peut pas se payer pour mettre un émetteur AM.

2526 L'autre raison qui fait que la bande AM n'a jamais été dans notre scénario technique revient du fait que, en tout cas, c'est notre compréhension, que la Loi sur la radiodiffusion passe de la radio communautaire dans la section de fréquence modulée et non dans la section de fréquence AM d'amplitude. Alors, c'est pour cette raison-là qu'on n'a jamais, c'est les deux principales raisons pourquoi le côté AM n'a jamais été dans nos scénarios techniques.

2527 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, pour vous, il n'y a pas d'autre solution que de passer sur 93,5 ou s'il y a d'autres fréquences, d'autres projets que vous pourriez envisager?

2528 M. MARTEL: La seule autre option qu'on surveille depuis 1993-1994, c'est la venue du numérique parce qu'on considère que c'est l'avenir, que le numérique va augmenter un peu le nombre d'espaces à Toronto et dans le sud de l'Ontario selon le projet, le plan de lotissement qui est présenté par Industrie Canada. Le fait que toutes les stations déjà détentrices d'une licence ont déjà un espace réservé, mais c'est peut-être pas tout le monde qui est intéressé, en tout cas, à y aller, quoique on sait que la majorité des stations commerciales ont déjà fait demande de licence intérimaire numérique.

2529 Le seul problème qui existe au niveau de cette option-là, c'est que ça va venir encore dans cinq ou dix ans et ça fait déjà dix ans qu'on travaille. Je ne sais pas quel sera l'état de notre communauté si on est obligé d'attendre un autre dix ans.

2530 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bon. Monsieur Martel, je vais vous amener à votre aire de desserte et vous avez mentionné dans votre présentation orale, tout à l'heure, qu'en -- en fait, je ne sais pas si c'est aussi en 1996, parce que dans le paragraphe vous dites que Radio Canada avait demandé le déménagement de sa fréquence en 1996. Et que toutefois nous avons fait notre demande pour une fréquence à St-Catharines mais notre dossier a été rejeté. En fait, il vous a été retourné parce qu'incomplet. Quand vous parlez ici dans votre, dans le document qui est à l'appui de votre demande à la page titre sous la rubrique B, puis je vais lire ce que vous dites

2531 M. MARTEL: Alors, je pense que je dois avouer que le texte de notre plan d'affaires n'a pas suivi l'évolution du dossier technique. En 1996, c'est vrai que c'était l'option qu'on a privilégiée et on privilégiait cette région-là parce qu'on avait entendu parlé de l'expérience de co-location de la station CIRV qui est, qui était une petite station portugaise qui ne diffusait qu'avec 250 watts et ils ont fait une expérience en plaçant leur antenne sur le même site que leur station qui était juste à côté, qui est la station de l'Université de Toronto, CUT, et après cette expérience technique-là, Industrie Canada leur a donné la permission de déménager leur antenne sur le toit de la Banque de Montréal et, par ce fait même, d'augmenter leur aire de desserte pour l'équivalent d'une station d'à peu près 10 000 watts ou quelque chose comme ça.

2532 Nous avons tenté des négociations avec la station qui était la plus près de la fréquence de St-Catharines qui était la station CJRT, la station éducative qui est située dans les locaux de l'Université Ryerson et après plus d'un an d'efforts d'essayer de les convaincre de nous permettre de faire cette expérience technique, d'essayer la station, la fréquence de St-Catharines sur un site adjacent à leur antenne, ils nous ont donné une fin de non recevoir et ils ne voulaient absolument pas même essayer à cause des possibilités de brouillage à leur signal.

2533 Et, suite aux audiences publiques de 1997, du printemps 1997, lorsque Radio Canada était en compétition pour la 99,1, on a été surpris comme tout le monde de la déclaration de Monsieur Pelletier de dire que la fréquence 93,5 allait être libérée de Peterborough et pourrait être donnée à des groupes qui contestaient la demande de la société. Et parce qu'on est un groupe communautaire qui n'est pas aussi au courant que l'industrie, notre dossier technique du moment où on l'a déposé au mois de septembre où on envisageait d'utiliser la fréquence sur le toit de l'édifice de TVOntario a changé pour le scénario semblable à tous les autres groupes qui sont en compétition.

2534 Lorsqu'on a su que Radio Canada avait déjà fait les tests techniques et avait prévu dans leur installation sur le toit de la Banque de Montréal d'inclure des espaces pour un émetteur pour la 93,5 et une antenne à même l'antenne de 99,1. Alors, c'est seulement quand on a découvert cette existence d'une possibilité que notre dossier technique a changé entre le temps où on a déposé et aujourd'hui.

2535 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: (Difficulté technique) la demande ou votre demande où on parlait d'une antenne sur le toit de TV, sur le toit de l'édifice de TVOntario, ç'a été modifié?

2536 M. MARTEL: Oui. Ç'a été modifié et...

2537 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous vous en iriez sur le toit de la Banque de Montréal?

2538 M. MARTEL: Exactement. Comme les autres. Et c'est pour cette raison que le rayon de diffusion, on a, j'ai reçu le document technique, là, il y a seulement que quelques semaines. Alors les paramètres du rayon de diffusion ne dépassent pas vraiment la grande région métropolitaine de Toronto et comprend une partie de Mississauga et arrête à la limite de Richmond Hill et de Scarborough dans l'est.

2539 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors tout ce dont on a parlé, la possibilité de déménager sur la tour du CN, c'est caduc?

2540 M. MARTEL: C'est un vieux scénario.

2541 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: C'est un vieux scénario. Bon, alors, on vous posera d'autre question là-dessus. J'en avais toute une série mais vous m'avez pris de court. Maintenant, on va passer à quelque chose de plus, qui a un peu plus de viande, qui est un peu moins sec. On va passer à votre programmation. On va commencer par la répartition des heures. Vous nous expliquez dans votre demande que vous comptez utiliser 126 heures par semaine entre 6 heures et minuit, et dont 86 heures seraient produites localement par la station.

2542 Il reste donc une quarantaine d'heures. Est-ce que ces heures-là vont provenir, je sais que vous ferez une entente avec Radio centre international. Est-ce que ces heures-là vont venir de RFI ou si il va en venir aussi de MICRO et du Réseau francophone d'Amérique? Pouvez-vous nous dire un petit peu d'où vont provenir vos heures de diffusion?

2543 M. MARTEL: Principalement, les heures entre le nombre d'heures de programmation qu'on va produire et le nombre maximum alloué selon la réglementation qui est 126 heures, ces heures-là vont provenir du Réseau francophone d'Amérique de l'ARC du Canada et c'est le réseau et puis Maurice ou Serge peuvent renchérir, c'est le réseau qui a l'entente avec Radio France International.

2544 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ah, c'est le, c'est le, O.K. C'est l'ARC qui a une entente avec RFI et non pas vous.

2545 M. McGRAW: Au niveau de la programmation de RFA, le Réseau francophone d'Amérique... Ne pas portez confusion avec RFI. C'est 5 pour cent aux environs de notre programmation totale dont on va diffuser sur notre réseau. Donc la Coopérative Toronto pourront se brancher à ces temps-là pour faire du direct ou pour faire de l'enregistrement comme je le mentionnais tantôt.

2546 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors 5 pour cent du 40 pour cent qui est pas déjà occupé par la programmation locale?

2547 M. McGRAW: Et bien sûr, il y a d'autres éléments qui proviennent de d'autres réseaux dont la Société Radio Canada pour ce qui est des bulletins Infoplus qui représente une dizaine de bulletins par jour, dont la Coop de Toronto pourra bénéficier.

2548 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors Radio-Canada... Une dizaine de bulletins, ça représente quoi en pourcentage sur votre...

2549 M. McGRAW: Ce sont des bulletins de 120 secondes, donc ce sont une dizaine de bulletins par jour qui sont diffusés et la Coop peut se brancher à cet amplifi-là. D'autres bulletins sont aussi diffusés par les studios d'Ottawa, soit les bulletins maison du Réseau francophone d'Amérique, des bulletins majeurs.

2550 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors on s'attend, là, on parle de combien en pourcentage des heures de programmation?

2551 M. PAQUIN: Ce qu'il faut comprendre, c'est que le Réseau francophone d'Amérique va diffuser 24 heures par jour et que toutes les stations affiliées peuvent un peu à la carte choisir des éléments de programmation. Et un élément important qui est la production de bulletins de nouvelles qui représente en terme de minutes à peu près cinq minutes à l'heure, il y aurait ces temps de programmation qui soient créés par les studios, par les employés du studio de RFA. Lorsque Maurice McGraw faisait allusion tantôt au 5 pour cent, c'est que la programmation 24 heures par jour, RFI, on va rediffuser 5 pour cent de RFI sur les 24 heures.

2552 Donc ce qui représente à peu près six ou sept heures d'émissions de RFI, on aura l'équivalent. On va aller chercher cinq, six heures aussi par semaine de Radio Canada et on prévoit à moyen terme d'aller chercher 60 heures par semaine qui seront issues des communautés. Donc Radio Toronto pourrait acheminer deux, trois heures d'émissions par semaine à la tête de réseau qui sera recapté selon la volonté des autres membres.

2553 Comme on le sait, il y en a qui vont prendre plus de programmation, les petites stations; d'autres qui vont prendre plutôt les services, les chroniques, les projets de production. Donc c'est une programmation qui est variée qui va respecter également la politique en vigueur relative à la radio communautaire.

2554 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Bon, maintenant, si on va dans la création orale. Dans votre demande, vous nous précisez que vous diffuserez 15 pour cent de création orale dont 4 pour cent sera consacré aux nouvelles et de ce 4 pour cent consacré aux nouvelles, 20 pour cent sera consacré aux nouvelles locales, 20 pour cent aux nouvelles régionales et 60 pour cent aux nouvelles internationales. Est-ce que vous pouvez nous préciser d'où viendront les nouvelles internationales, le 60 pour cent de nouvelles qui sont dites internationales dans votre demande?

2555 M^me EMNA DHAHA: Nous comptons bien entendu contracter des alliances avec les canaux usuels dont nous disposons à Toronto, donc comme (Difficulté technique), Media Scan, donc toutes ces agences qui, pour nous, sont générales et de l'information sur demande.

2556 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais vous n'achèterez pas des émissions toutes faites. Vous allez prendre, vous allez vous abonner au service de nouvelles et vous allez monter vos propres nouvelles internationales?

2557 M^me EMNA DHAHA: C'est ça. Il y a aura des journalistes qui composeront et des lecteurs de nouvelles. Donc, c'est là où on fait la distinction.

2558 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Alors vous n'achetez pas d'émission. C'est ça que je veux savoir si vous achetez ces émissions-là par exemple un service de nouvelles internationales qui fait la lecture ou en fait repasser même le ruban. Alors le 4 pour cent de nouvelles, si je comprends bien ce que vous me dites, le 4 pour cent de nouvelles va être entièrement produit par la station. Il n'y aura pas de bulletins de nouvelles achetés de l'extérieur?

2559 M. MARTEL: Sauf les bulletins du Réseau francophone d'Amérique qui a une collaboration comme on mentionnait tout à l'heure avec Radio Canada et aussi le réseau TVA et il y a un troisième aussi...

2560 M. PAQUIN: On a aussi des ententes avec MTR, qu'on va redistribuer des services MTR à tous les membres via Internet, du moins une partie. On a des ententes avec Canada News Wire. On a des ententes avec RFI au niveau de leurs nouvelles, avec TVA, NCN, on a une source importante là, Radio Canada qui produit déjà une dizaine de bulletins pour nous. Donc les sources avec Internet aussi dont l'accès est presque illimité. Des sources au niveau de, comme on dit, concocter là des bulletins internationaux formule type et Radio Toronto pourrait récupérer les services que l'ARC offre au même titre que les autres stations.

2561 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Ça c'est dans les 40 heures qui ne sont pas produites localement par votre radio. Bon, maintenant on va passer au reflet de la communauté. Votre projet radiophonique a comme objectif de rejoindre plusieurs communautés culturelles de la francophonie. Quelles mesures allez-vous mettre en place pour connaître les besoins et les intérêts de ces communautés en ce qui concerne la programmation? Est-ce que vous avez un comité ou comment est-ce que vous fonctionnez pour déterminer quels sont ces besoins-là des diverses communautés francophones du grand Toronto?

2562 M. BOUDJENANE: La radio communautaire ou du moins les membres de la radio communautaire sont un peu représentatifs de la diversité de cette communauté à Toronto. La radio a effectué plusieurs démarches auprès des différentes communautés qui sont les communautés afro-canadiennes d'origine francophone, d'Afrique du Nord du Maghreb, les communautés asiatiques, les communautés françaises d'Europe, etc. Et tous ces groupes, toute cette diversité de la communauté a voulu contribuer à cette radio et on a voulu dans la programmation justement, refléter toutes ces composantes.

2563 Alors dans la programmation qu'on offre, la programmation provisoire, on a tous ces groupes qui vont avoir au moins une heure par semaine pour parler de leur communauté, de leur culture, passer leur musique et éventuellement faire la promotion de leurs intérêts particuliers. Donc, dans ce sens-là, la radio va donner la place à tout le monde et si je peux ajouter cette communauté qui est diversifiée est souvent doublement discriminée. Elle est discriminée par rapport à ses origines ethniques, culturelles et linguistiques. Ces gens ne se retrouvent pas au niveau linguistique dans les autres radios qui desservent Toronto parce que c'est des gens qui s'expriment d'abord en français.

2564 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, on va passer à l'aspect formation et participation des bénévoles, Monsieur Martel, si vous voulez bien. Alors 86 heures par semaine de programmation, c'est pas un projet modeste. Il faut quand même les produire ces 86 heures-là et ça va vous prendre et des employés rémunérés et des bénévoles. Pouvez-vous nous rassurer à l'effet que vous avez une bonne compréhension de la quantité et de la qualité des ressources que ça va vous prendre? Comment pensez-vous que vous allez pouvoir gérer l'exploitation d'une station avec une armée de bénévoles?

2565 Alors, à ce niveau-là, je voudrais savoir combien vous allez avoir d'employés rémunérés qui travailleront à la station, leurs tâches et une fois que vous serez en onde après la période d'implantation, combien y en aura-t-il? Comment allez-vous recruter vos bénévoles? Combien de bénévoles comptez-vous recruter et quelle formation allez-vous donner à ces bénévoles-là?

2566 M. MARTEL: Alors, on a, parce que ça fait déjà 10 ans qu'on essaie de mettre sur pied cette radio communautaire, on a déjà un bassin assez important de bénévoles qui, au cours des années, ont suivi des sessions de formation qu'on a offertes. Pour ne nommer que la semaine complète de programmation qu'on a faite lors de la semaine francophone en 1991, à cette semaine de programmation-là, on a géré une grille de 7 heures le matin à 10 heures le soir pendant sept jours complets avec une multitude de bénévoles. On a compté qu'il y avait entre 250 et 300 bénévoles qui étaient venus faire de la programmation en 1991. Depuis 1991, on a offert quatre ateliers de formation à des producteurs bénévoles qui a rejoint au total environ, c'était des sessions d'environ 20 à 25 personnes.

2567 Alors on a un autre bassin de 100 personnes qui ont suivi nos ateliers depuis 1994, 1995, 1996, qui sont déjà pour la plupart impliqués dans la production d'émissions dans des radios de campus. Présentement, il y a trois émissions, trois ou quatre émissions en français et ce sont des gens qui ont, en grande majorité, suivi nos formations qui gèrent des émissions hebdomadaires dans des radios de campus présentement.

2568 On est conscients qu'avec 88 heures de programmation, on s'attend d'avoir un peu plus que huit personnes payées à temps plein. De ces huit personnes-là, on aura deux vendeurs, un vendeur à temps plein, un vendeur à temps partiel. On aura quatre animateurs et on aura un responsable des bénévoles et un directeur de la station et une personne secrétaire-comptable.

2569 Alors le responsable des bénévoles va être responsable des sessions de formation qui vont être tenues et selon le document qu'on a déposé qui s'appelle Manuel d'information pour les bénévoles, chaque bénévole sera obligé de passer dans un atelier d'au moins 10 heures et de signer une entente de responsabilité pour suivre la réglementation du CRTC et de s'assurer que les projets d'émission qu'ils vont nous soumettre vont être tenus et les contenus autant musicaux que les contenus vocaux vont également être respectés.

2570 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: La dernière question parce qu'on avait un petit problème. Et je pense que vous avez deux politiques de programmation qui ont été déposées, si je ne m'abuse. Il y en a une qui a été déposée avec votre demande originale dans laquelle, attendez un petit peu que je me retrouve dans ma paperasse, dans laquelle vous nous disiez, au niveau de la réglementation de contenu en onde:

2571 Alors j'ai remarqué que ça avait disparu dans le document que vous avez déposé le 15 novembre. Je veux juste m'assurer que ç'a vraiment disparu.

2572 M. MARTEL: Oui, juste pour vous expliquer. Dans le souci de respecter le travail de nos bénévoles, que nos bénévoles ont fait dans le projet original parce qu'on parle toujours du projet original.

2573 En 1991, après qu'on a fait une semaine complète de diffusion, on avait beaucoup de bénévoles qui étaient très motivés et il y a au moins une quinzaine de ces personnes-là qui ont travaillé à développer la première politique de programmation qu'on a déposée, comme vous dites, là, dans le document original et c'était dans le respect du travail accompli par ces bénévoles-là qu'on a déposé cette politique-là.

2574 Mais on s'est aperçu qu'au niveau de la gestion des bénévoles, après avoir discuté avec nos consoeurs de l'Ontario et de l'ARC du Canada, que le document qu'on avait déposé n'était pas vraiment à jour et on s'est empressé de corriger le fait et d'avoir un document d'information des bénévoles qui comprend un contrat où les gens sont très conscients de la réglementation et de la responsabilité qui leur incombe quand ils vont apparaître devant le micro et faire de la programmation à notre radio.

2575 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et ça, ç'a été déposé le 19 novembre?

2576 M. MARTEL: Oui.

2577 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Moi, je n'ai pas d'autre question. Monsieur Martel, peut-être que vous pouvez prendre quelques minutes comme on a donné à tous ceux qui sont passés avant vous pour nous résumer pourquoi vous devriez avoir la fréquence.

2578 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Martel, peut-être que nous allons attendre les questions de M^e Rhéaume avant de passer à la conclusion parce que peut-être il y aura lieu d'y insérer des commentaires de plus. Merci, Madame Noël. Monsieur Rhéaume.

2579 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Ça ne sera pas très long, Monsieur Martel. Dans votre document, le document que vous avez déposé cet après-midi, à la page 9, il est question, au paragraphe Projet représentatif de la diversité, il est question de partenaires financiers avec l'hebdo, Le Métropolitain et également la Chaîne française de TVOntario qu'on connaît très bien. Pouvez-vous nous préciser la nature de ce partenariat et les contributions le cas échéant de vos partenaires?

2580 M. MARTEL: Pour commencer avec le journal Le Métropolitain, on a le rédacteur en chef qui siège à notre conseil d'administration et le partenariat qu'on propose avec le journal Le Métropolitain, c'est un partenariat de développement du marché publicitaire pour être capable de proposer à tous les annonceurs potentiels la possibilité de placer des annonces en même temps dans le journal et à la radio et de pouvoir gagner une exposition supplémentaire avec les dollars de publicité qui vont être investis. Je ne sais pas si Nicol veut renchérir là-dessus.

2581 M. SIMARD: Absolument parce que c'est quelque chose qu'on veut qui aille des deux côtés. Alors toute personne qui veut mettre de la publicité dans Le Métropolitain va automatiquement avoir la chance, va se faire offrir la possibilité de mettre leur publicité aussi à la radio. C'est quelque chose... Alors admettant que eux vont avoir... La radio va avoir ses vendeurs, Le Métropolitain aussi a déjà ses vendeurs, a un système d'établi, en place et qui peut aider aussi à la radio à se trouver de la publicité, des revenus supplémentaires et pour nous aussi c'est un avantage parce que plus on peut offrir des aspects qui sont intéressants pour les commanditaires, mieux c'est. Alors tout le monde y gagne là-dedans.

2582 M. BOUDJENANE: Peut-être pour rajouter aussi à cette question, c'est qu'il y a aussi des propositions pour développer un partenariat au niveau de la programmation elle-même. On pense éventuellement faire des échanges entre les salles de nouvelles de TVOntario, notamment la Chaîne française et les journalistes du Métropolitain pour pouvoir produire des émissions donc en partenariat avec ces deux médiums qui existent déjà et qui ont dans leur salle des journalistes chevronnés d'expérience.

2583 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Alors quand vous dites: "Nous comptons parmi nos partenaires financiers TVOntario", si je comprends bien votre propos, là, il n'y a rien de finaliser entre vous TVOntario, à l'heure qu'on se parle?

2584 M. MARTEL: Il n'y pas d'entente si vous voulez.

2585 M. OUELLETTE: On a une lettre d'entente de pré-projet. C'est que le partenariat avec TFO, on aimerait aller installer nos studios dans le même édifice que TVOntario, cependant TVOntario n'est pas propriétaire des espaces. C'est la compagnie Olympia & York qui est le propriétaire et on est en train d'explorer parce qu'au niveau de la salle de nouvelles de PANORAMA qui est très complète présentement et au niveau des espaces à bureau de l'édifice de TFO, il n'y a pas l'espace nécessaire pour installer tous nos studios. Alors, présentement, la discussion est au point où l'édifice qui est adjacent à l'édifice de TVOntario qui est le 2200 Younge, qui est un édifice qui fait partie, les trois premiers étages sont le même édifice, là, mais il y a deux tours à bureaux.

2586 Alors c'est à cet endroit-là où il y aurait un espace suffisant pour installer nos studios et comme le mentionnait Mohamed, les discussions qu'on a eues sont au niveau de projets particuliers et au niveau d'échanges avec les salles de nouvelles et d'échanges de journalistes où les journalistes de la radio pourraient aller prendre de l'expérience à la télévision et vice versa. Et dans les périodes creuses de la télévision, les journalistes de TFO pourraient venir travailler chez nous sur une base à temps partiel ou contractuelle. Alors c'est l'état des négociations. Parce qu'il y a des syndicats qui sont impliqués, parce qu'il y a d'autres parties, on n'a pas un document final mais les pourparlers vont bien et c'est dans l'esprit où se font les discussions. Ça fait que TVOntario, et TFO en particulier, veulent faire le partenariat avec nous mais au niveau particulier des locaux, c'est pas eux qui ont la décision finale, c'est une autre partie.

2587 M. OUELLETTE: Est-ce que vous me permettez d'ajouter un très bref commentaire? C'est que depuis deux ans TFO et les radios communautaires déjà en onde ont un petit partenariat mais il est après se développer et ceci ça rapporte un minimum monétairement. Mais c'est quand même quelque chose d'intéressant puis c'est après se développer.

2588 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Je ne vous vois pas mais je vous remercie. Une autre précision, Monsieur Martel. Vous avez déposé une série de tableaux encore cet après-midi. Il y en a un qui est intitulé Tableau d'assimilation et il y a un pourcentage. Je pense que vous en avez discuté également dans votre présentation dans l'assimilation, est-ce que à la deuxième ligne, langue d'usage, est-ce qu'on ne devrait pas lire anglais pour conclure au pourcentage qui est au bas de la page?

2589 M. MARTEL: Ces données viennent de l'Office des affaires francophones et de Statistique Canada. Alors la façon qu'on calcule l'assimilation, on prend le nombre total de personnes qui ont déclaré que leur langue maternelle était francophone et ensuite on regarde la donnée qui indique la langue d'usage à la maison. Et particulièrement à Toronto, on...

2590 Et Monsieur Castonguay qui est professeur à l'Université d'Ottawa pourrait vous l'expliquer en long et en large, mais si vous lisez le livre L'enjeu de la langue en Ontario, vous allez comprendre que l'exogamie, c'est-à-dire que des Francophones qui se marient avec quelqu'un qui ne parle pas le français, et aussi le fait que quand la mère, plus souvent en tout cas, quand la mère ne parle pas le français, la langue à la maison est l'anglais, et les enfants de ces mariages mixtes-là, en grande majorité, ne parlent pas le français à la maison et c'est d'où le pourcentage qu'on voit au tableau 1 et au tableau 2. Et au tableau 1, c'est l'Ontario au complet. Le tableau 2, c'est les régions de Toronto et les régions environnantes où le chiffre est de 20 pour cent supérieur au chiffre d'assimilation pour l'Ontario en entier.

2591 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Je pense que je vous suis, Monsieur Martel, mais il me semblait que pour en arriver au pourcentage qui est au bas de la page marquée assimilation, par exemple, à Toronto, 63,9, que la langue d'usage comparativement à la langue maternelle aurait dû être l'anglais et non le français. Mais de toute façon, je pense que j'ai compris votre point. Je vais référer à un document qui est tout neuf, qui date de vendredi passé: Politique relative à la radio communautaire. Vous avez dit, je pense, vous avez mentionné en avoir pris connaissance. Alors, est-ce que vous avez des commentaires particulièrement en ce qui a trait au paragraphe 27 et suivants. Je ne sais pas si vous êtes réticent d'en discuter, je comprends fort bien, parce que le document date de trois ou quatre jours à peine.

2592 En ce qui a trait aux conditions des licences relatives à la programmation. Et c'est court, en fait, vous avez le paragraphe 28, puis vous en avez discuté avec Madame Noël, mais il est clair de votre demande qu'à titre de station de type A, que votre demande rencontre cette politique. À partir du paragraphe 27, le chapitre ou la section Exigences en matière de programmation. Et le sens de ma question est que vous avez dit, je pense, en présentation en avoir pris connaissance de cette politique.

2593 M. MARTEL: Oui. On est extrêmement heureux et conscient de ce pourcentage mentionné à l'article 28. On a mentionné que, parce qu'on serait une station de type A qu'on aurait au moins 15 pour cent de la programmation chaque semaine qui serait de la programmation de création orale axée sur la collectivité et on s'attend que 15 pour cent, ça va être le minimum. Ça ne sera pas le maximum.

2594 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Paragraphe 29, maintenant. Et puis on se quitte après ça.

2595 M. MARTEL: Je dois vous dire que pour le paragraphe 29, je ne peux pas vous répondre parce que quand on rentre dans les sous-catégories, il faut, il va falloir regarder mais dans l'ensemble, on était solidaire avec la position de l'ARC du Canada que l'ARC a déposé auprès de la Commission et je peux laisser mes collègues de l'ARC du Canada vous dire qu'ils sont heureux parce que leurs commentaires ont pratiquement tous été pris en compte dans la nouvelle politique.

2596 CONSEILLER RHÉAUME: Excellent. Merci. Merci Madame la Présidente.

2597 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci M^e Rhéaume. Maintenant, nous répétons l'invitation de Madame Noël à conclure. Nous donnons le fameux cinq minutes pour nous dire que votre demande est celle qui devrait être retenue pour la fréquence en question.

2598 M. MARTEL: Bien, pour résumer un peu notre position, le fait que le français est une langue officielle au Canada, et comme l'a mentionné la Commission Vision d'avenir sur l'assimilation au Canada en 1991, on encourageait tous les paliers de gouvernement à travailler pour aider à mettre sur pied des radios communautaires dans les communautés où on démontrait un intérêt et où des projets mûrissaient. Je pense que Toronto est mûre.

2599 Je pense aussi que le fait que la grande région de Toronto est une région désignée autant au niveau fédéral que provincial pour recevoir des services en français et le fait qu'on n'entende pas assez dans les médias traditionnels le point de vue des Francophones qui sont à l'extérieur du Québec comme je l'ai mentionné dans ma présentation. Je pense que l'apport de toute la diversité de notre conseil d'administration et de notre communauté, l'apport aussi qu'on va amener au niveau de la programmation culturelle et canadienne qui va être vivante et différente de tout ce que les autres groupes qui sont devant vous vont présenter et j'aimerais aussi peut-être demander à Maurice McGraw, le président de l'Alliance des radios communautaires de vous dire quelle importance il voit dans votre décision d'accorder cette licence à la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

2600 M. McGRAW: Une dix-neuvième station pour l'ARC du Canada et le Réseau francophone d'Amérique est très importante et que ce soit Toronto, c'est d'autant plus important. Nous touchons actuellement environ 400 000 auditeurs et avec la venue du territoire de Toronto, on pourra voir augmenter ce nombre-là de façon considérable. Éventuellement, nous voulons atteindre le fameux chiffre de 800 000, de toucher à 800 000 auditeurs francophones à travers le pays. Donc, Toronto peut grandement nous aider à ce niveau-là. Plusieurs services du Réseau francophone d'Amérique vont aussi permettre à aider la Coopération de Toronto à réaliser ses objectifs et sa promesse de réalisation. Nous avons plusieurs partenaires à l'ensemble du Réseau francophone d'Amérique et à l'ARC du Canada et à ce fait, nous pourrons grandement aider la Coop de Toronto. En ce qui a trait à l'aspect formation, c'est aussi un élément que l'ARC du Canada touche.

2601 Nous avons un budget annuel de formation et nous avons aussi de l'expertise à offrir à partir de notre brochette de 18 stations qui existent à travers le Canada. Donc nous pourrons offrir énormément en formation à la Coop de Toronto.

2602 M. MARTEL: Je pense que Marius Ouellette, notre représentant de notre organisme provincial, aussi veut dire un petit mot.

2603 M. OUELLETTE: Bien, permettez-moi d'ajouter suite à ce que le président de l'ARC vient de dire, c'est qu'on a parlé beaucoup de facteurs assimilation aujourd'hui. On a parlé aussi de marché. Et puis à l'intérieur du plan de développement de MICRO qui aimerait d'ici cinq ans avoir des radios communautaires francophones en province et ensuite de ça dans une deuxième phase ajouter peut-être des antennes répétitrices de sorte que, avec les nouveaux moyens de technologie, on serait capable de faire entrer chaque communauté en onde tous les jours. C'est que Toronto se place au centre même de ce plan de développement et voici pourquoi.

2604 Lorsqu'on parle d'assimilation, c'est une chose dont on a parlé aussi. Mais un facteur dont on n'a pas donné de détail aujourd'hui, c'est que dans l'effort que nous faisons pour atteindre l'auto-financement de nos radios, c'est qu'on doit vendre et les grandes entreprises qui se trouvent, qui ont, disons, des succursales dans nos petites communautés, ont leur bureau chef ici à Toronto. Mais lorsqu'on essaie de pénétrer le marché, ici même à Toronto, on se fait dire assez carrément que à l'extérieur de Toronto, il y a quoi? Et on dirait que les marchés ne sont pas nécessairement intéressés. Ces grandes entreprises-là ne sont pas intéressées à annoncer à l'extérieur. Alors imaginez que s'il fallait que Toronto, que vous, que Toronto obtienne leur licence, et que nous soyons en mesure de percer ce marché des grandes entreprises, ici même à Toronto, vous pouvez vous imaginer la répercussion sur toutes nos autres radios membres. Ce serait incroyable.

2605 Alors il faut bien dire également que, en plus d'augmenter cette crédibilité-là, la grande concentration de Francophones qui se trouve ici à Toronto, c'est la deuxième plus grande concentration à l'extérieur du Québec, c'est-à-dire en Ontario, après Ottawa. C'est considérable. Alors que nos radios ont de plus petits auditoires, ici à Toronto, ça se passerait très grand. Et à cause aussi de l'effet multiculturel des communautés, on peut s'imaginer que tout ceci entre dans le cadre du développement de tout ce que les services de Patrimoine Canada peuvent offrir. Et un autre élément en terminant aussi, c'est que lorsqu'on parle de vente de publicité ou d'achat de publicité, et de cette offre que nous faisons au gouvernement de la province et l'ARC, le Réseau RFA le fait au niveau national. C'est qu'il faut bien se dire qu'avec la Loi sur les langues, le gouvernement se doit d'offrir la publicité dans les deux langues et puis il est bien entendu qu'à certains moments, on y voit des écarts et des manquements considérables.

2606 Mais en insistant le moindrement, on croit que ceci est possible et que c'est pour nos radios communautaires une occasion très très grande d'aller chercher ceci parce qu'à Toronto, c'est aussi une région désignée.

2607 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, Monsieur Martel et vos collègues, et nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 heures. We will start tomorrow morning at 9, I believe, with an application by a numbered company represented by Mr. Roger De Brabant.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1740,

to resume on Wednesday, February 2, 2000 at 0900 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1740 pour reprendre le

mercredi 2 février 2000 à 0900