TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
CBC LICENCE RENEWALS /
RENOUVELLEMENTS DE LICENCES DE LA SRC
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Place du Portage Place du Portage
Conference Centre Centre de conférence
Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais
Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)
June 4, 1999 Le 4 juin 1999
Volume 10
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
CBC LICENCE RENEWALS /
RENOUVELLEMENTS DE LICENCES DE LA SRC
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Françoise Bertrand Chairperson of the
Commission, Chairperson /
Présidente du Conseil,
Présidente
Andrée Wylie Commissioner / Conseillère
David Colville Commissioner / Conseiller
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
James Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère
Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Nick Ketchum Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Carolyn Pinsky Legal Counsel /
Alastair Stewart Conseillers juridiques
Carol Bénard Secretary / Secrétaire
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Place du Portage Place du Portage
Conference Centre Centre de conférence
Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais
Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)
June 4, 1999 Le 4 juin 1999
- ii -
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Intervention by / Intervention par:
Alliance Atlantis Communications Inc. 2944
Canadian Film and Television Production Association 2978
Epitome Pictures Inc. 3038
Dialogue Canada 3051
ACTRA Performers Guild 3062
Peter Wintonick 3077
Canadian Association of Film Distributors & Exporters 3096
Coalition seeking balance on CBC/ 3116
REAL Women of Canada, Campaign Life Coalition,
Women for Life, Faith and Family
Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)
--- Upon resuming on Friday, June 4, 1999, at 0905 /
L'audience reprend le vendredi 4 juin 1999, à 0905
14831 THE CHAIRPERSON: Alors, good
morning, everyone.
14832 Madame Bénard, voulez-vous s'il vous
plaît nous présenter le prochain intervenant?
14833 MS BÉNARD: Merci, madame la
présidente.
14834 The first presentation will be
Alliance Atlantic Communications Incorporated.
INTERVENTION
14835 MR. MacMILLAN: Good morning, Madam
Chair and Commissioners.
14836 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
14837 MR. MacMILLAN: I am Michael
MacMillan, I am the Chairman and CEO of Alliance
Atlantis Communications, and with me this morning are
three of my colleagues from the television production
and broadcasting divisions of our company.
14838 On my left is Christine Shipton, who
is a Senior Vice-President, Creative Affairs
Television). Further on the left is Steve Ord, Senior
Vice-President, Television Production. On my right is
Phyllis Yaffe, who a few days ago became President of
the newly merged Alliance Atlantis Broadcasting.
14839 First, we would like to thank the
Commission and its staff for this opportunity to offer
our comments on the CBC's role and challenges as it
looks forward to the 21st Century. As broadcasters,
producers and distributors ourselves, we fully
appreciate the complexities of the new communications
environment. However, when we consider the special
role of Canada's public broadcaster, it is clear that
the challenges the CBC faces at this time are unique.
14840 At the outset of our comments, we
wish to be clear about the central point to these
proceedings. Alliance Atlantis fully supports the CBC
as Canada's public broadcaster. The CBC is a crucial
and effective cultural instrument, connecting us,
entertaining us and enlightening us as Canadians.
14841 This is a tremendous responsibility
considering the size and diversity of Canada. It is an
even more daunting task in the highly fragmented
communications environment where the CBC's single voice
competes with countless others to be heard.
14842 To that end, Alliance Atlantis
recommends the renewal of all the CBC's television,
radio and specialty licences as set forth in the Notice
of Public Hearing.
14843 We have two areas to address today
regarding the CBC, its focus and its funding.
Specifically, what kind of Canadian content should the
CBC be showing and who is going to pay for it?
14844 MS SHIPTON: Turning first to the
issue of focus, we believe that the CBC must rededicate
itself to its traditional business, telling Canadian
stories to Canadians, informing Canadians about their
world, and showcasing Canadian talent through its
national broadcasting services. In so doing, the CBC
should actively distinguish itself from private
conventional broadcasters both in philosophy and
appearance. In our view, this is the only approach
which will allow the CBC to fulfil its public interest
mandate and justify its public funding.
14845 In making itself distinctive, the
CBC's programming should be innovative with a general
interest appeal which speaks to Canadians. This should
include a broad array of program genres including
sports, news, drama, children's programming and comedy.
14846 In recommending that CBC make
innovative programming its priority, we cannot over
stress a key point: "Innovative" should not be equated
with programming that lacks an audience and appeals
only to fringe groups of Canadians.
14847 We believe that the CBC should
reflect a notion of Canadian culture which is
accessible and entertaining, not highbrow or elitist.
For viewers, the CBC should be a popular destination
where they can see themselves, not "PBS North". The
CBC, in partnership with Canada's independent
producers, has demonstrated its vision in this area
with original, risk-taking programs such as "North
of 60", "Da Vinci's Inquest" and "This Hour Has 22
Minutes".
14848 We must applaud the CBC for taking
steps towards the Canadianization of its prime time
television schedule. This is definitely the right
strategy. In fact, more can be done. We urge the CBC
to go further, dedicating 100 per cent of its schedule
to Canadian programs, and all Canadian CBC should not
be limited to prime time, it should be all day, every
day.
14849 The CBC is continuing this effort and
we are very pleased to see that the 1999-2000 program
schedule will dedicate prime time viewing periods to
drama, the performing arts, Canadian film,
documentaries and amateur sports.
14850 MR. MacMILLAN: Canada's independent
producers will continue to be an important ingredient
in this programming philosophy. The CBC also notes the
important role of Canada's independent producers in its
oral presentation to the Commission, but then appears
to contradict itself in its business plan.
14851 On this point, we note a disturbing
trend in the CBC's projected Canadian program
expenditures which are contained in Appendix 2 to the
application for the English language network television
service. In the area of drama, expenditures to
Canadian independent producers from 1998 through to
2006 are essentially flat. In contrast, however,
expenditures for non-independent sources of drama,
specifically in-house CBC production, are growing.
14852 This growth in expenditures to
non-independent suppliers is significant. We have
plotted the CBC's drama spending on a graph to
illustrate the proportion of total expenditures made to
independent producers as licence fees. This is the
first of the graphs attached to our presentation as
Attachment 1. These are part of the handout that you
received this morning.
14853 This graph shows a steady decrease
from 1998 through to 2006 with the percentage of
licence fees paid to Canadian independent producers as
a proportion of total Canadian drama spending falling
from 54.5 per cent to a projected 44.4 per cent.
14854 At the same time, the proportion of
the total drama budget going to non-independent
production is rising. We have attached a second graph
to our presentation which is Attachment 2. This is the
last page. This graph shows in-house expenditures
rising from 32.7 per cent in 1998 to 43.9 per cent
in 2006.
14855 These spending projections are at
odds with the CBC's own pronouncement that 90 per cent
of its drama comes from Canada's independent producers.
It begs the following question: If 90 per cent of its
drama can be acquired from approximately 54 per cent of
its drama budget, why would the CBC propose to decrease
its spending to independent producers which are
obviously highly efficient, offering value for the
CBC's dollar?
14856 Simply put, providing independent
producers provide the CBC with dynamic programming
which is comparable in quality to in-house productions
but at a far lower cost to the CBC. Yet, over the next
10 years the CBC's spending emphasis for drama is
notably not on productions from independent producers.
14857 In our view, this is a contradiction
which must be addressed. We urge the CRTC to direct
the CBC to increase significantly its sourcing of all
under-represented categories of programming from
Canada's independent producers.
14858 While we applaud the CBC for its
$30 million investment in feature films, we also have a
concern about the initiative and its potential impact
on other categories of television productions.
14859 Again, we refer to the CBC's English
television spending projections. Since these
projections do not provide specifically for this
expense, we are left to conclude that the $30 million
is included as part of the overall expenditures to be
made to independent producers. If this is the case,
then funding feature films will be done at the expense
of other under served television projects such as movie
of the weeks and series.
14860 The result will therefore be a
reallocation of funds to favour feature films, which
diminishes the benefit of this initiative. In our
view, a real boost for feature film production requires
an injection of new funds.
14861 MS YAFFE: We fully appreciate that
the CBC cannot, and should not, be an unchanging voice
within broadcasting. It too must have some flexibility
to adapt to the rapidly changing communications
environment and to incorporate new technologies to help
it fulfil its mandate.
14862 Like all conventional broadcasters,
the CBC is battling the effects of a highly fragmented
audience which has a multitude of entertainment and
information choices within and beyond television.
Although the CBC has a special role as the public
broadcaster, it would be unfair and unwise to deny it
some opportunity to counter these challenges through
new initiatives. To require the CBC to remain static
will cause it to ultimately lose ground.
14863 For these reasons, we recommend that
the CBC be permitted to engage in specific focused
forms of expansion into new areas such as new media and
specialty services. The CBC's reason for expansion
should be to extend the reach of the CBC's traditional
business, not to enter new businesses unrelated to its
mandate and certainly not to replace lost revenues.
14864 Furthermore, CBC expansion should
take the form of partnerships with private sector
entities where the CBC is limited to a minority stake.
In this way, the CBC is given a flexible business tool
but shares the costs with others thereby minimizing the
risks to its taxpayer dollars.
14865 MR. MacMILLAN: In recent years the
CBC's allotment of pubic funding has been significantly
reduced the CBC has been forced to look elsewhere for
program financing. Canada's independent producers and
distributors have increasingly been asked to play a
greater financial role towards the creation of programs
for the CBC's schedule.
14866 Indeed, companies such as Alliance
Atlantis have stepped up to the plate in order to act
as financing partners for a number of CBC projects.
Alliance Atlantis has undertaken this role both as a
producer of programs airing on the CBC such as
"Cover Me", "Nothing Too Good For A Cowboy" and
"In Tha' Mix", as well as a distributor of CBC programs
including "Big Bear", "Riverdale" and many
independently produced television movies such as the
"Sue Rodriguez Story". In all of these experiences,
the CBC has been a dependable and creative business
partner.
14867 An issue has arisen during this
hearing which further threatens the security of the
CBC's funding base. It has been suggested that the CBC
should be required to reduce the amount of advertising
time it is allowed to sell on its television networks
as a means by which to make it distinct from the
private networks.
14868 In our view, the CBC will not become
more distinctive if yet another funding pillar is
pulled out from under it. If anything, the removal of
the CBC's ability to sell advertising will simply
exacerbate the problem.
14869 In order to assist the CBC in
reaching a goal of 100 per cent Canadian content all
the time, we recommend that the CBC be permitted to
maintain its current level of advertising. The
challenge in providing a quality all-Canadian schedule
will be significant and the advertising revenue earned
by the CBC will be necessary in order to reach this
goal.
14870 Financing partnerships with the
private sector and advertising are two strategies which
have become increasingly important to the CBC in recent
years. Neither is a full answer to the issue of
diminished public funding. For this reason we urge the
Commission to encourage the federal government to
assure the necessary funding support for the CBC. Over
the years, our public broadcaster has been tremendously
successful in fulfilling its mission.
14871 As part of this renewal process many
Canadians have spoken passionately for a CBC which is
fresh, independent, innovative and, above all,
distinct. An assurance of predictable, stable funding
for the CBC will ensure that it does not become a
shadow of its former self. It is our hope that the CBC
will be fortified by this renewal process, allowing it
to continue to build bridges linking Canadians of
different geography and viewpoints.
14872 That concludes our presentation. We
would pleased to address any questions you have for us.
14873 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
14874 I would ask Commissioner Cram to
address you with the questions of the Commission.
14875 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, and
welcome.
14876 Thank you for your thoughtful
presentation and, indeed, the written presentation that
you gave us.
14877 I have a few questions, a lot of them
philosophical.
14878 In your written presentation
initially, you talked at page 2 under "The Role" on the
issue of:
"... the CBC becoming less
distinguished if it is driven by
commercial marketplace
activities." (As read)
14879 Does that mean that it is presently
somewhat driven by commercial marketplace activities?
14880 MR. MacMILLAN: I would assume that
it is somewhat driven, about $300 million a year
driven. I don't mean to be flip with that answer, but
yes it is.
14881 It is striving to be a popular,
relevant service, not to be simply a niche service of
interest to only special interest groups. But I think
that if the CBC is 100 per cent Canadian, not just in
prime time but all the time in every day, in that case
its search for advertising dollars while commercially
driven will at least also be absolutely focused on its
main mandate, which is to carry Canadian programming
and reflect Canada.
14882 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You go on to say
that:
"Without funding support CBC
will be forced to continue to
pursue this activity and become
less distinguishable."
(As read)
14883 Where is the point of no return?
Because I understand it is an issue of grey, but where
is the point where commercial activities are acceptable
and not acceptable? What are the parameters?
14884 MR. MacMILLAN: That's a good
question. A tough question.
14885 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I am paid to
ask them, yes.
14886 MR. MacMILLAN: My colleagues might
want to add to this, but one of the points for us for
sure is not chasing non-Canadian programming.
14887 In my view, in our view, the CBC's
carriage of foreign programming is not part of its
mandate, and I presume that the only reason it would
include foreign programming is to maximize commercial
revenues. Unlike 10 or 15 years ago, there are many
more channels, specialty channels, that carry out an
increasing range of the best that the world has to
offer. So I think the Canadians have a pretty good
chance of seeing that sort of programming.
14888 So that is for sure one point, but I
think that Christine may want to add to that.
14889 MS SHIPTON: I just want to add that
in my view what the CBC has been doing, at least in the
drama front, which is where I work, I mean they are
gaining an audience more and more every year for the
number of years that I have been associated with what
they do, and as long as that audience is coming to the
CBC and to the dramas that they are producing, in fact
that all the producers are producing, it makes sense to
have the advertisers there too.
14890 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So when it has
gone too far is if there is non-Canadian programming
and if the present programming has no audience, or
lesser audience?
14891 What I'm trying to say is, how much
is too much and where do you draw the line on that?
14892 MS SHIPTON: Can I just ask: How
much is too much commercial activity by the CBC do you
mean?
14893 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. To the
point, as you say, where it becomes less
distinguishable.
14894 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, again I would
say it is the element of non-Canadian programming.
Although we believe that the CBC should be popular,
broad-based, it should want to have a significant
audience and not have to apologize for that, and if it
does have broad audiences it will attract advertising
dollars, which is also good.
14895 But that doesn't mean that everything
has to be broadly popular. It is the overall mix that
we are talking about, and there needs to be room for
innovative, off-the-wall, new types of programming that
may not by themselves attract a significance audience.
There has to be a mix.
14896 MR. SHIPTON: But in that sense,
nothing is too much. As long as it is a Canadian voice
and a Canadian story and programming that is reflecting
Canada unto itself in some way, it can be as commercial
and popular as we all want it to be, in my point of
view.
14897 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On the
non-Canadian front -- and I hear you, Mr. MacMillan --
would it not be fair to say, though, as CBC says, that
they need some non-Canadian to show the best of the
world. You referred to specialties, but there are a
lot of people who receive CBC off-air and they wouldn't
have access to that.
14898 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, that's true,
they don't, although increasingly with new
technologies, including 400,000 homes with DTH today
that didn't have it a couple of years ago, part of that
gap is being reduced. I think that the track record of
specialty channels in this regard is pretty compelling.
14899 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We are still at
25 per cent, though, off-air, so that is 25 per cent of
the population.
14900 MS YAFFE: If can just add, there are
lots of other services that are delivered off-air that
do carry the best of the rest of the world as well, and
it seems to me it just contradicts the sort of
essential mandate that we believe is the focus of the
CBC. It is clearly at 90 per cent.
14901 This is a 10 per cent change in terms
of overall scheduling, and it is a commitment they have
made in prime time. It is our view it is a commitment
they could take throughout the rest of the day.
14902 Is the best of the rest of the world
available to Canadians through other services? It's
our view it is both available off-air and through other
distribution systems.
14903 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were talking
about an appropriate mix, and I will bring up sports.
What is the appropriate mix of sports? What is the
percentage that is the right one?
14904 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, they should
have had the Leafs in the final round, for one thing.
14905 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I know, but
that's destiny. We can't handle that.
14906 MR. MacMILLAN: We believe that --
14907 THE CHAIRPERSON: We admire your
disinterested point of view, Mr. MacMillan.
--- Laughter / Rires
14908 MR. MacMILLAN: It has been a long
week, you know.
14909 We believe that sports is an
appropriate part of the CBC schedule. We think that it
should include amateur as well as professional sports.
We acknowledge it in certain times of the year, like
hockey playoff time. It is a disruptive, although
popular, feature in the schedule. But we do think that
sports have an absolutely appropriate pride of place in
the CBC schedule.
14910 We think that not only is it
entertaining, not only is it great water cooler chat
for Canadians, it is also a lot of our Canadian heroes
are Canadian sports heroes. And I think that we want
our kids to make sure that they have got the
opportunity to grow and know those heroes.
14911 Yes, it is true that private
broadcasters also carry sports and would bid for
sports. But we don't think that the CBC should be
relegated to simply carrying programming that nobody
else wants. We think that they should be able to be
proactive, aggressive, trying to put together an
overall schedule that is popular for Canadians. So we
think that sports is a -- in balance, though -- fair
part of the schedule.
14912 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Should the
criteria be that -- given the issue of over-bidding or
whatever the word is, bidding up the value of the
rights in sports. Should it be that the sports that
are shown should be of some significant or particular
interest to Canadians? Should there be some limit on
that? Like, what about World Soccer or racing?
14913 MR. MacMILLAN: I don't know much
about racing.
14914 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You see, I know
nothing about sports, so I mean --
14915 MR. MacMILLAN: It is always a
difficult thing, because apparently for Canadians
soccer is the number two participation sport for kids.
And that wasn't the case 15 years ago or 20 years, but
it reflects the changing face of our country. So it is
difficult to have a precise opinion about each
individual sport, but yes, I suppose that the CBC
should be mainly carrying sports that are popular here
that feature Canadian teams playing. That's fair.
14916 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You talk about an
increase in independent production. There is the
mandate to reflect Canadians to Canadians and you are
referring to it.
14917 What do you think of the concept that
the production should be in some way regionally
balanced, that there should be some proportionality to
that?
14918 MS SHIPTON: We applaud it. There is
absolutely nothing wrong with having the regions
reflected. In fact, if the CBC is going to do its job
well, it must reflect the regions. And again, from an
independent producer's point of view and speaking as a
drama independent producer, as opposed to a
documentary, it is critical. I mean, our stories come
from everywhere in the country and they happen
everywhere in the country.
14919 And at Alliance Atlantis we have been
involved in productions not just out of Toronto,
obviously, but as a distributor of shows like "Black
Harbour" which is set in a fishing village of Nova
Scotia and as Michael referenced "Big Bear", which is a
historical story set in Saskatchewan --
14920 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In God's country,
yes.
14921 MS SHIPTON: In God's country,
absolutely.
14922 And right to urban, gritty Vancouver,
the belly of that city. I mean, we think it is
extremely important, extremely important.
14923 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you think it
would be appropriate for us to talk about some regional
proportional balance in the independent production
sector?
14924 MS SHIPTON: I think it is
appropriate. I always worry when there are percentages
being mandated, because who knows where the next great
story is going to come from. When the independent
producers came to us with the story of Diana
Kilmurray(ph), the first woman Vice-President of the
Teamsters set in Vancouver, I mean, who knew that that
story was going to burst forth there and that she had
such a great story to tell.
14925 So I do think it is appropriate to
express our need for regionalism. I get worried when
we start putting gates on, "Okay, if we don't have 80
hours out of Saskatchewan, no more money". You know,
it is hard to do that, I think.
14926 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I don't mind that
at all.
--- Laughter / Rires
14927 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about
some -- when we talk about independent production, what
about some proportionality between smaller producers
and larger producers?
14928 MS SHIPTON: Again, I will speak to
this. The CBC has been wonderful in nurturing talent,
finding where the writers, producers, directors are.
That's all of our jobs. And again, it is about -- they
are everywhere in the country. And again, I would hate
to see mandated figures, once again, that you must be
using eight writers from Alberta. Again, it has to
stay fluid.
14929 That being said, we applaud their
activities with smaller and medium sized producers.
That is the future of our industry here in Canada. And
it is essential that those companies be nurtured and
hopefully thrive.
14930 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is the
issue of the CBC mandate in independent production and
sometimes that can become problematic and let me give
you one example.
14931 And I am not sure if you are aware,
yesterday we had the Diversity Network people here and
they were talking about your baby, "Da Vinci" and the
lack of visible minorities in the production, and
indeed, I think they referred to one person in a
supporting role. And so, the issue is the CBC being
able to fulfil its diversity mandate with independent
production.
14932 MS SHIPTON: We are very proud to
distribute "Da Vinci's Inquest", not too differentiate
too much --
14933 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Oh, I am sorry,
yes.
14934 MS SHIPTON: No, no, not to do that
too much.
14935 And we are not only proud to
distribute it, but we are doing very well with
distribution of "Da Vinci's Inquest", it is a CBC show
that is selling extremely well around the world. And I
know it has been discussed at the "Da Vinci" story team
just how are they reflecting Vancouver well or not.
14936 I think to speak to the CBC's efforts
in terms of multiculturalism, they are the only
broadcaster who sits at a table and thinks about that,
discusses that from ground zero up. And as a producer,
it has to be indigenous to the story, it has to be
right for the piece, it has to be reflecting what it is
you are trying to tell. So when you go to a "North of
60" series, I mean, there is absolutely no question,
those are the peoples' stories we are telling.
14937 It just can't be done enough and
obviously there is more programs coming up this year, I
am sure they have rhymed them off to you, in terms of
what is coming up that is reflecting a multi-cultural
diversity.
14938 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. MacMillan,
the whole underpinning of what you were talking about
is more money. How much?
14939 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, we weren't --
we were saying more money is needed for feature films.
If they are going to have $30 million over six years,
that ought not to simply be part of the static $28.5
million in licence fees for independent drama,
otherwise you are just reorganizing the same sized pot.
So at least that additional $30 million over those five
or six years.
14940 But I do believe that as currently
funded, the CBC does and can continue to do a very good
job. Our concern is to stabilize that funding, both in
terms of the Parliamentary appropriation and in terms
of the advertising revenues.
14941 But we are not suggesting that the
CBC needs to increase its Parliamentary appropriation.
14942 COMMISSIONER CRAM: One final
question there was, you spoke in your written
submission about the role to develop, I think the word
is, the development of programming. And when I looked
at that word "development" of programming and
independent sources -- let me find my note -- I took it
in a way of an innovative way. Development of
distinctive and appealing general interest programming.
14943 What about after they have been
developed? What about after they -- when they become
successful? What is CBC's role then with that program?
Should they let it flutter onto the other networks and
then continue developing innovating programming? Or,
you know, think about "Air Farce", "This Hour Has 22
Minutes" and we get into a bidding war because they are
so popular. I mean, what about that role of
development?
14944 MS SHIPTON: I believe they should
continue to develop, but when they have a hit, they
have to keep that hit on. That is the fundamental base
of their audience. Look at how "Street Legal" ran for
eight solid seasons on CBC and brought a wonderful
audience that they could then introduce other programs
to, because they had that 1.5 million viewers per week.
They have to be allowed to keep their hits, absolutely.
14945 MR. MacMILLAN: Just think about if
the future provided that a hit on the CBC ought to
migrate some place else. A viewer would realize, "Oh,
that means that the programs that remain on the CBC
more than one month or one year must not be hits, must
not be popular". It would be all the wrong signal.
And that is not the way you are going to create a
programming spine that is reliable and from what you
can, as Christine says, promote the other newer
offerings.
14946 MS SHIPTON: It is about gaining an
audience and keeping that audience and sustaining it
and growing it and that can't be taken away from them
as a broadcaster.
14947 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very
much.
14948 For the record, I would just like you
to know that Eric Peterson on "Street Legal" is from my
home town in Saskatchewan.
14949 Thanks so much for your thoughtful
comments.
14950 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Certainly we
did.
14951 THE CHAIRPERSON: We heard you during
the TV policy about the need for private broadcasters
to get more involved and more strong believers in
Canadian content and helping the promotion more of
programs to not only presenting the window, but
supporting it.
14952 Where do you see that the CBC could
be of help in that respect, given their long tradition
of believing in Canadian programs and having made
specific space for them?
14953 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, two ways. One
is promoting these programs on the CBC, which means
publicity, a promotional and marketing and advertising
campaign that is thought through from beginning to end
and is consistent.
14954 Additionally, by scheduling series
that promote Canadian stars or the Canadian
entertainment system in general, not just shows that
appear on CBC, but also featuring programming or stars
that appear on the private networks. That would be a
very appropriate vehicle where they could contribute
beyond the limits of their own schedule.
14955 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the type of
Canadian "ET" or something more about talk shows where
the --
14956 MR. MacMILLAN: Sure, "ET" or a more
pure talk show or both.
14957 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your intervention
today addresses the situation of English television
more than the French one?
14958 MR. MacMILLAN: Sorry, that is
correct and we should have prefaced that in our
remarks. It really was focussing on English
television.
14959 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given your size and
your involvement and even more in the coming years,
what would be, from your knowledge, your assessment of
the situation between French and English? Do you see a
difference? Would your comments be the same? You
know, you are saying, "Ask the question that it is
really addressing the English system", do you think it
is the same situation in French? Do you think your
position, if you were addressing the French situation
would be the same?
14960 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, my view is that
the CBC's role in English-speaking Canada is different,
mainly because there are more services, more existing
Canadian services, and of course, the impact of
American services in English Canada is greater. And
therefore, the CBC's relative position is smaller or
weaker, because there are far more competitors to share
the viewing time with.
14961 Whereas in French-speaking Canada, in
Quebec, Radio-Canada is a bigger player and therefore
we would have more concerns about its expansion in that
market. It is not as put upon, if that is the right
phrase. There is not as many competitors.
14962 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that
the kind of questions we have raised through the
hearing -- and I am not talking about the competitors
but the ones the Commission has raised -- about the
criteria that kind of relate to selection and choices
of programs. Do you think it is more in line with
commercial preoccupation on the French than in English,
or you don't see that there is any trend of that
matter?
14963 MS YAFFE: I think really to judge
the commercial value of the CBC in Quebec against
English Canada is a bit beyond our scope, given that it
is not something we watch all the time. But given the
size of their audience and their ability to sustain
that audience over the years, clearly they do have a
stronger position and are successful in reaching more
of the target audience there. So their reliance on
advertising is -- first of all, they are better at it
and second of all, they have the audience to sell.
14964 Our view is advertising for the CBC
Television in English Canada is an important pillar,
not just in terms of accomplishing their bottom line,
their balanced budget, but in terms of drawing
Canadians to the service. Advertising is reflective of
an audience. If advertisers believe in a program and
the audience is being delivered, the advertising
dollars go there.
14965 The notion that advertising, wherever
it is, diminishes a program seems to me to be a
contrary notion. Advertisers are the first to know
what the size of the audience is and they are the most
loyal if it is working and they are the least loyal if
it is not working.
14966 So my view is if they are selling a
lot of advertising, if they are commercially successful
in Quebec, it is because they are delivering an
audience. Hence, they have proved their value to the
advertising.
14967 THE CHAIRPERSON: You talk, in your
brief this morning, about your role and your
partnership in distribution with the CBC. You talk
also of the decrease that you are seeing in their
commitments in the coming years in terms of
collaboration with the independent producers.
14968 It seems that the distribution
rights, the capacity of really taking advantage at an
age where globalization is really happening more and
more, although international sales hasn't started --
last year, it has been there but it is becoming more
and more a possible revenue stream. Where do you see
that partnership going?
14969 Do you see any kind of exchange that
could be done in terms of accommodating the needs and
the will of the CBC to have access to some sales at the
same time as you being distributor and being a partner
to the CBC and at the same time being an independent
producer wishing to keep doing interesting programs
with them?
14970 MR. MacMILLAN: I don't know what
public policy purpose would be served by the CBC being
in the business of paying for international rights and
then harvesting them by selling them around the world.
The only purpose of that would be to have the revenue
from the sales exceed the cost of acquiring those
international rights in the first place and I don't
believe that making a buck internationally and tying up
a lot of capital in the interim is the public policy
purpose of the CBC.
14971 A different matter though might be --
the real purpose should be letting Canadians see
Canadian programming, and to that end, as fragmentation
continues and as fewer and fewer viewers watch any
particular service, including the CBC's main service,
it is appropriate, as long as the terms of trade are
fair, for the CBC to acquire rights beyond its initial
telecast or initial number of telecasts on its primary
service, so to be able to repeat it again on another
Canadian service, either owned by the CBC or not.
14972 Now that, we do see as reasonable
because otherwise the CBC would be hard-pressed to make
a financial contribution significant enough to make a
difference to the project if they only held very
limited initial Canadian telecast rights. There, as
long as the terms of trade are fair, that is a
reasonable thing, but we don't see any reason for them
to be spending limited dollars acquiring German rights
or U.S. rights or whatever.
14973 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, unless the
trend is that more and more the return on the
investment is worth it, wouldn't it? You know, if that
market develops and the ability which we have
demonstrated over the years of selling and interesting
other publics is getting greater audience and greater
capacity, I suppose there is some rationale that could
be developed in saying: Yes, the investment is very
expensive, but on the other hand, it is bringing back
sufficient money that there is a profit that we can
reinvest in other types of Canadian programs.
14974 MR. MacMILLAN: Yes, although the
marketplace works fairly efficiently and there are lots
of players in Canada and elsewhere who are bidders for
those rights. We have, for example, become the
distribution partner on a number of CBC projects where
we have put up that missing money, and had we not done
that, in theory, the CBC might have. But at the end of
the day, is that the best place for their limited
dollars to be spent?
14975 There are lots of people,
broadcasters in various countries around the world or
middlemen, as it were, distributors who are willing to
bid for those rights.
14976 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it is an
expansion of the activities of the CBC that you are not
quite encouraging?
14977 MR. MacMILLAN: That is correct.
14978 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
14979 Thank you -- oh! I am sorry. Carolyn
Pinsky has a question for you. I am sorry.
14980 MS PINSKY: In your presentation, you
have suggested that the CBC should be innovative and
have innovative programming and I assume that involves
the assumption of a certain element of risk. Would you
agree with that?
14981 MR. MacMILLAN: Yes.
14982 MS PINSKY: You have also expressed
concern that the proportion of programming expenditures
on in-house productions are increasing relative to the
amount of expenditures going to independent production.
You have also noted that, in your view, in-house
productions are of comparable quality to in house.
14983 I wonder if you can comment on the
element of risk that independent producers are willing
to take and whether that would be of comparable
quality.
14984 I just note that I sort of raise this
as the CBC has suggested in its application that a
reduction of in-house production might mean that less
programs would be distinguished by risks and that
independent producers might be less willing to tackle
controversial issues, though they have sort of stated
elsewhere that independent producers have also been
willing to take risks. So I just wonder if you can
comment on that issue.
14985 MS SHIPTON: Well, it depends on --
we have to make sure that we are talking about the same
thing, whether it is risk creatively or risk
financially. There are two different elements
obviously and sometimes, they do become one.
14986 Riskier programming creatively is
going the route of doing those shows that a lot of
people, as we said, won't do. We have a show coming up
on CBC this year called "In The Mix", which is a
spin-off from "Straight Up", which is about two college
kids running a hip-hop radio station. This is not a
world that a lot of broadcasters have looked at,
experienced -- it is the hip-hop music scene which is a
risky scene in terms of if you are trying to attract a
large general audience.
14987 On the financial risk side, just to
speak to what Michael was discussing, as distributors,
we take those financial risks and we have to gauge how
much is that risk worth to us as a distributor.
14988 MS PINSKY: So I gather then, you
don't see an issue in terms of having to rely on
in-house productions to produce a certain type of
programming?
14989 MR. MacMILLAN: Well no, not in-house
productions: independent productions, the opposite of
in-house productions. Our view is that independent
producers, i.e., not in-house CBC, are very
well-positioned to produce and provide excellent
programs that serve the CBC's mandate, that do have an
appropriate range of creative risk and innovation, and
from a financial point of view and a creative point of
view, risk-taking is our game.
14990 Independent producers and
distributors bring usually a significant portion of the
financing and a significant portion of the creative
inspiration to these projects. We are very much in the
risk-taking and risk-ownership game.
14991 MS PINSKY: That is what I
understood. In other words, you are saying the CBC
would not have to rely on in-house in order to --
14992 MR. MacMILLAN: Exactly.
14993 MS PINSKY: Thank you very much.
14994 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
14995 MR. MacMILLAN: Thank you.
14996 MS BÉNARD: The next presentation
will be by the Canadian Film and Television Production
Association / l'Association canadienne de production de
film et de télévision.
14997 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, bienvenue.
La parole est à vous.
INTERVENTION
14998 MS McDONALD: Bonjour, madame. Good
morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission. My
name is Elizabeth McDonald and I am the President and
Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Film and
Television Production Association. The CFTPA
represents the interests of more than 300 independent
producers working in every region of Canada.
14999 In other appearances before this
Commission, we have told you that we are the people who
create the stories that Canadians see on their
television screens. I am proud today to have brought
together a group representing our membership to outline
our positions.
15000 On my right is Linda Schuyler, Chair
of the Association. Linda is the President of Epitome
Pictures and produces "Riverdale", "Liberty Street" and
the "DeGrassi" series of programs.
15001 To my immediate left is Stephen
Ellis, President and CEO of Ellis Entertainment,
celebrating its 35th year as an independent production
company. In fact, in 1969, they produced "Adventures
in Rainbow Country" for the CBC, one of their most
successful and earliest independent productions.
Stephen is the Chair of the CFTPA's Broadcast Relations
Committee.
15002 Behind me on my left is Robin Cass,
President of Triptych Media Inc., a Toronto-based
company that produces both feature films and television
programming. Robin is the Producer of "The Hanging
Garden", voted most popular production at the 1997
Toronto Film Festival and "The Tale of Teeka", a
children's program broadcast on the CBC that won a
Rockie at the 1998 Banff Television Festival.
15003 Behind me on my right is Julia
Keatley, Chair of the CFTPA's B.C. Producers' Branch.
Julia is the Producer of "Cold Squad", a drama series
seen on CTV.
15004 Finally, behind me, we have Michael
MacMillan, President and CEO of Alliance Atlantis
Communications. Alliance Atlantis produces and
distributes a wide range of dramatic programming such
as "North of 60", "Nothing Too Good For A Cowboy", and
"Due South".
15005 Linda.
15006 MS SCHUYLER: Thank you, Elizabeth.
15007 Since the last time that we appeared
before you, some new appointments have been made. We
welcome you, commissioners Cram and Langford.
15008 The CFTPA is a national association
made up of small, medium and large production companies
from all regions of Canada. CFTPA members are
risk-takers and entrepreneurs who make drama,
entertainment, documentary and children's programs that
tell Canadian stories to Canadians and increasingly to
the world.
15009 As the CBC has pointed out, we have
been crucial partners in the move to successfully
Canadianize its schedule.
15010 We support the renewal of the
licences of the CBC's English Television services. At
the same time, we do have a number of constructive
suggestions. We believe that in a world characterized
by multiple choices, the CBC must be a key player in
assuring that quality Canadian choices are available.
15011 First and foremost, we believe that
for the CBC to play the central role that the Act calls
for it must have adequate and truly stable financing.
15012 While, as producers, we would like
nothing more than to see a commercial-free CBC, we know
we must be responsible and realistic. At the moment,
the only true stable revenue source available to the
CBC is its commercial revenue.
15013 Unless the government decides to give
CBC increased and reliable support, discussions about
removing CBC from the advertising marketplace are
probably moot.
15014 While our proposals are based on
today's funding levels, we do not advocate that the CBC
rest on its laurels. Rather, as the world changes, the
CBC, like all broadcasters, must adapt.
15015 We believe that a revitalized CBC
must be characterized by partnership, transparency and
clear priority-setting.
15016 The CBC was established in the 1930s
to ensure that Canadians had access to Canadian
programming that reflected Canadian values and told
Canadian stories. As the Aird Report put it: "The
State or the United States".
15017 The CBC's role has evolved over the
years to focus more and more clearly on being the
Canadian broadcaster of record. Along with a
supportive regulatory climate and government fiscal
support measures, the Corporation has been a critical
factor in the emergence of a mature independent
production sector.
15018 The CBC has acknowledged that
independent production has been good for it as well.
Independent production has brought innovative programs
to the network, including "This Hour Has 22 Minutes",
"Nothing Too Good For A Cowboy", and even my own
"Riverdale", to name but a few.
15019 Partnerships with the independent
production sector has enabled the CBC to survive the
impact of the reductions to its parliamentary
appropriation because we can license high-quality
programming to the CBC at less than the full cost of
production.
15020 The rapidly evolving broadcasting
environment presents significant challenges to the
Corporation. In this new environment, the CBC should
build on the progress recently made.
15021 The CFTPA believes that the era of
defining a public broadcaster by bricks and mortar and
ownerships of copyright is past us and that the CBC
must evolve.
15022 What do we mean by partnership? It
is no longer appropriate for the CBC to own and exploit
a wide range of copyrights nor to maintain a huge plant
for its exclusive use.
15023 Private independent producers can
help stretch the available dollars by bringing our own
investments, as well as other partners to the table,
whether through tax credit, CTF investments, access to
other private funds, other Canadian conventional or
specialty broadcasters who take additional windows or
international pre-sales.
15024 The CBC's role is precisely to act as
a central trigger to develop and showcase Canadian
programming. Our membership excels at this kind of
piecing together of funding sources and exploitation of
copyright domestically and internationally.
15025 By "transparency" we mean that
decisions to make or buy must be made on the basis of
the most effective use of public money and that the CBC
must be able to demonstrate this.
15026 Clear priority setting and ranking
will ensure that when there is insufficient money
available to meet all of the demands some fall off the
table. For example, if the CBC doesn't have sufficient
resources to both expand its coverage of amateur sports
and to increase its commit to children and youth
programming, which choice will it make.
15027 We believe that the CBC can play a
new and different central role by developing and airing
new productions, including a greater opportunity for
regional productions and for new producers. In fact,
this new role of leadership should also include a
healthy dose of Canadian feature films.
15028 How do producers see the CBC turning
these goals into reality?
15029 Stephen.
15030 MR. ELLIS: Thank you, Linda.
15031 In terms of partnership, we have
already begun discussions with the CBC to develop a
Terms of Trade Agreement. We have studied similar
models established with public broadcasters in both the
United Kingdom and Australia. We see this as a
mechanism to level the playing field between producers,
particularly medium and smaller producers, and the CBC.
We believe that this is a creative solution to
resolving any irritants that exist between independent
producers and the CBC.
15032 We are greatly encouraged by the
CBC's commitment to have this in place by the end of
this year. However, to ensure that we all reach this
goal we encourage the Commission to note this in its
decision.
15033 We are also encouraged by the CBC's
statements of commitment to the private independent
sector and to an increase in its support of feature
films. However, we would like to see this support
translated into firm commitments.
15034 Partnerships always thrive when they
are based on a concrete understanding between the
involved parties. For this reason, we share the
concern raised by the Directors Guild that Appendix 2
filed with the English Television Network applications
shows spending on independently produced drama to be
effectively frozen over the next few years. Nor is the
increased spending upon feature films reflected in the
Corporation's financial projections. For these
reasons, we believe that firm conditions must be
included in the CBC's renewal decision.
15035 With respect to transparency, the CBC
must make decisions based on two factors: Meeting the
demands of its mandate and effective use of public
funds. In order to ensure its business decisions are
demonstrably efficient and effective, the CBC must
develop new reporting methods that are both simple and
clear. This is an issue that we hope to resolve
through our Terms of Trade discussions.
cable to get the services they have already paid for.
15036 With regard to priority setting,
while our members would be only too happy to supply
programs to additional CBC channels, we believe that
first and foremost the CBC must have a comprehensive
plan for it flagship over-the-air services. Canadians
shouldn't be required to purchase a satellite dish or
receive cable to get the services they have already
paid for.
15037 To that end, the CFTPA believes that
you should require the Corporation to first meet a
comprehensive set of objectives before diverting its
resources elsewhere. In particular, the CBC should
meet the following requirements:
15038 Firstly, continue the Canadianization
of its schedules in prime time and other day parts.
15039 Secondly, by condition of licence a
minimum of 22.5 hours per week of children's and youth
programming, with requirements for substantial
increases in the youth portion.
15040 Despite commitments to improve, we,
like the Alliance for Children and Television, remain
concerned about the under performance of CBC over the
last two licence terms. This is why we have
recommended the imposition of a condition of licence in
this area.
15041 Thirdly, develop a long-term plan
with specific commitments in terms of the use of
regional programming acquired from independent
producers.
15042 Fourth, make increased commitments to
long form drama, with at least half of that devoted to
feature film. To that end, we welcome the initiatives
announced earlier this week.
15043 Finally, decreased use of U.S.
programming, particularly in the shoulder prime
periods.
15044 To recapture its central place in our
system, the CBC must be able to get out in front and
take chances with Canadian programs. Increased use of
innovative producers from across the country using a
special CBC fund dedicated to the development of young
film makers would be a step in the right direction.
15045 While we do not oppose the CBC's
involvement for plans for the Internet, again we
believe that this can be achieved in partnership with
the many new media producers who work in the private
sector. The CBC's role should be as a catalyst and
broadcaster, not as an owner of copyright.
15046 Elizabeth.
15047 MS McDONALD: Thank you, Stephen and
Linda.
15048 We would like to thank you for this
opportunity to present our views on this important
public process. We hope that you find our views to be
constructive.
15049 As we have said, we support the
renewal of CBC's English television licences. However,
we have suggested that the licence be renewed for a
term less than the seven years permitted in the Act.
Our aim is not to be punitive. The next five years
promise significant challenges and opportunities for
the broadcasting system and for the CBC. As
broadcasting evolves, seven years is a lifetime.
Public review of the CBC's expression of its mandate
should not wait that long.
15050 Thank you.
15051 We will he happy to address your
questions.
15052 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
15053 I would ask Vice-Chair Colville to
address you with our questions.
15054 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you
very much.
15055 Good morning, Ms McDonald,
Ms Schuyler, Ms Keatley, gentlemen.
15056 I just have a few areas I would like
to pursue with you, just to perhaps clarify a little
more. I think, your written brief and your
presentation this morning are pretty clear in terms of
the particular areas of interest or concern that your
organization and independent producers in Canada have,
but I would like to pursue a few of those perhaps a
little more.
15057 I appreciate, given the position you
have, it is probably a little bit that one has to be
careful about how you deal with these sorts of issues
to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you in
dealing with these sorts of issues. So you can't help,
though, but get a sense, in reading the written
submission, that: We really think the CBC should have
its licence renewed and we think they are doing a
wonderful job, but kind of between the lines there are
some concerns that come through.
15058 Let's just start with priorities. I
would like to talk a bit about the priorities and then
the Terms of Trade issue, and then perhaps a few other
shorter issues. I don't know whether they are any less
important or not, but I just have a few other
questions.
15059 You mentioned in your presentation
this morning, particularly through from pages 20 to 23
of your brief, about the priorities issues. I noted
that in paragraph 34 of your presentation -- I will
read from these but I don't think you really to turn to
them because I am going to ask you to refer to several
so you will be jumping all over the place.
15060 But at paragraph 34 you talk about,
again, the priorities and you say:
"The CBC as a national
broadcaster provide ..."
15061 You are quoting here, but you go on
to ask the question:
"In what order. Should
information programming take
priority over entertainment, or
should documentary and current
affairs predominate the CBC
schedule, or should each type of
program receive equal attention
and air time?" (As read)
15062 So you raise a lot of these issues.
15063 Then later on in your brief at
paragraphs 71 and 72, again -- particularly 71, you
say:
"In order to accomplish a better
balance, the CFTPA encourages
the CBC to develop a clear set
of priorities with regard to
programming expenditures."
(As read)
15064 You reference in your oral
presentation here this morning, I guess, some of the
issues.
15065 The first bullet on page 21 is
Canadianizing the schedule in prime time, and the last
bullet on page 23 is related to that issue. But I
guess if you have seen the program schedule there is
only, as I can see, two American programs left for the
fall of 1999, and that is "The Simpson's" at five
o'clock weekdays and then "The Wonderful World of
Disney" on Sundays.
15066 What is your view as to what the
priorities of the CBC should be? You refer in your
brief, I noted this kind of a bit of an unusual term
here -- I think it was at page 10 or 11, the CBC --
"... on being the Canadian
broadcaster of record."
15067 I'm not sure what that means. Maybe
you can say what that means and give us some sense of
what you think the priority should be.
15068 MS McDONALD: I'm going to start this
and then hand it over to Stephen Ellis.
15069 I think first of all, first and
foremost when we talk about being the Canadian
broadcaster of record I think we would, as much as
possible, like to see the CBC become 100 per cent
Canadian, so when you see the CBC you know that you are
home and that in fact it is truly reflective of Canada
and has many of the programs it already has and to
build on that.
15070 Particularly you asked a question
about "The Simpson's". I think most of us know the
economic reasons why "The Simpson's" are on, but it is
attracting a youth audience. I have a 12-year-old son.
That is probably the program he watches the most on the
CBC, unfortunately, and not due to my efforts to get
him not to watch "The Simpson's".
15071 But I think I would be -- I think all
of us, both as producers and as parents and as
Canadians, want to see the CBC try to replace
"The Simpson's" with programming that hits that
12-year-old when he comes home and that is telling
stories about the values that we share as Canadians
rather than the values of Springfield, Massachusetts,
or wherever else Bart lives.
15072 So first and foremost to be Canadian.
15073 I think, secondly, to look at those
audiences that we must keep in the Canadian
broadcasting system with innovative programming that
attracts them.
15074 I think in terms of setting
priorities -- and one of the challenges we had in
reviewing the many thousands of pages that the CBC
filed with the Commission, was to try to establish
exactly how in their financial -- the challenges the
CBC has to face. How they are making the programming
decisions. I think that would probably ease the issue,
not only for independent producers but for the
government, for the Commission.
15075 So when we raise the question it's
because we weren't -- from our perspective, it isn't
clear to us at what point is something taken away from
children and youth to serve another audience that the
Act demands that they must respond to.
15076 Stephen.
15077 MR. ELLIS: Thank you.
15078 I think the biggest priority that we
have in mind for the CBC is to make greater use of
independent production in all of the under represented
categories.
15079 While we might have some ideas about
how they might rank those categories within the under
served area, I think our goal here is that in order to
be good partners with the CBC we need to know what
those priorities are and be able to rely on them and
have them be predictable so that our members, when they
are developing projects, know what they can expect in
dealing with the CBC and that they can be developing
projects with confidence that they know where the
Corporation is headed in programming terms and that
they can compete too, but with some predictability in
the right areas for those opportunities.
15080 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So are you
saying that with the exception of Bart and Homer that
the balance is about right if they just bought more
independent productions within the balance that is
already there?
15081 MS SCHUYLER: I think that "The
Simpson's" -- and what was the other program you
mentioned, sir?
15082 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: The other
American one is Disney, on Sundays.
15083 MS SCHUYLER: That is a little
misleading because I think you are looking at the fall
schedule that is being put forward.
15084 There actually is, coming up over the
course of the broadcast year with the CBC a fair number
of specials that are American movies. I think in terms
of priority setting we know that those American movies
obviously had to be acquired in some sort of a bidding
war. What we would like to see is those completely
removed from the CBC schedule so that the priority
setting would be, if we can't get -- our ideal vision
would be to have 100 per cent Canadian all of the time,
and then you have a real alternative. Then, even if
you have commercials in that schedule, you have an
alternative because it is all Canadian programming. If
we can't get that far right away, then we say at least
the CBC would be distinct if it had no American
programming in its scheduling.
15085 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: The American
programming -- I'm sorry, Ms McDonald, did you want
to --
15086 MS McDONALD: No. I think Linda
raised an important issue related to Canadian feature
films and I wouldn't want Mr. Cass not to have the
opportunity to have his input.
15087 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Sure.
15088 MR. CASS: Thank you.
15089 I guess from the perspective of a
small company whose primary activity is the development
and creation of Canadian feature films, while we are
really thrilled with the CBC's initiative to undertake
a greater role in partnering with us to create films
and to broadcast them to the country, it remains
utterly unclear as to how that is going to be financed.
When you look at or imagine the amounts of money that
must get spent in bidding wars for American product,
which there are already many opportunities for all of
us to see, there is a slight concern from our side.
15090 Because I think, arguably, the role
of Canadian feature film in the national cinema is to
reflect Canada to the world, to reveal us to be a
sophisticated, thoughtful and culturally diverse
nation. But due to some very grave issues of access to
screen time at our cinemas across the country, I think
in fact that sort of makes CBC's initiative doubly
critical and important as the means by which Canadians
will see the films that tell the stories of our country
because we know the population base is spread out far
and wide and many Canadians just don't have access to
cinemas, frankly, ever to see those films to know that
they exist, let alone have the chance to see them.
15091 So I think that CBC's efforts and
activities with feature films being broadcast on the
network and where they come from and what that activity
means to the audiences is very, very important.
15092 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: When you are
referring to the movies, are you talking about that
portion of the schedule that is proposed for the fall
of 1999 which is the midnight CBC late movie which is
suggested that, I presume, one is supposed to read this
as about half of it would be Canadian and the other
half foreign, not necessarily American?
15093 MS SCHUYLER: No, my understanding is
that there is also a number of American movies that are
coming on as specials within the heart of prime time in
the extended schedule.
15094 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. So
given the concerns that you have about we need, if I go
back to page 21 of your oral presentation this morning,
you refer at the bottom of page 21 to youth. On page
22, you refer to long term plans, specific commitments
in terms of regional, increased commitment to long form
drama and then finally the decrease.
15095 Given the suggestions that you have
made in terms of more in a number of these other
categories, I guess unless we can find that we can
squeeze more than 24 hours into a day or 18 hours, I
guess maybe it is in terms of the broadcast day
depending on when some of these late night movies end,
what do you suggest in their priorities should give?
15096 It seems a lot of people are coming
before us and suggesting that CBC should set priorities
and their priorities should be to give us more of this
or somebody else more of that. But very few people
seem to be suggesting what they should be doing less of
that is going to open up the time slots to give the
more.
15097 MS McDONALD: First of all I think,
Commissioner Colville, when we talk about children's
and youth programming, we are only asking at minimum
that the CBC begin to meet the expectations set in two
licence terms. And we think that is very important so
we looked at that very carefully and when you say a
minimum and you look over two licence terms, I think
that collectively both the Commission and ourselves
have to agree, it is just a minimum, that is what we
asked. But after two licence terms we would like to
make sure it gets met. So that's in that, I don't
think it is more.
15098 In terms of the issue of long form
drama, I think the CBC, since the filing of their
renewal application, indeed this week, have talked
about a greater commitment to Canadian long form drama.
And we do applaud that. However, I think as both Linda
and Robin stated, there is an issue about the American
long form drama that is going to be showing up. So I
think it would be our view that Canadians should take
precedent wherever possible. And particularly, I
think, as Robin said, to provide Canadian feature films
with a broader audience, because that is what they
fight for all the time.
15099 And in terms of the regional
programming, I think Julia Keatley has -- first of all,
children's programming, youth programming can come from
anywhere in the country. So in that or long form drama
can come from anywhere in the country, as Christine
Shipton pointed out, as can dramatic series.
15100 There are other ways that the CBC,
too, can become involved, and more highly involved, in
regional programming. I am sure there are other people
on this panel that want to address some of those.
15101 Julia?
15102 MS KEATLEY: I think in the -- as to
priorities when you talk about the schedule and time,
and Elizabeth has outlined some of that, as regards to
sports, for instance, we all know when the hockey
playoffs are coming up and I think that in terms of
scheduling of programming, you can look at that and
say, "Well, we know that we are going to schedule our
prime series to end by the end of March" so that you
are not hitting that kind of time. We certainly don't
propose in terms of sports, because of the revenue that
comes in from advertising, that we remove that from the
schedule.
15103 And obviously one of the things that
we would like as independent producers is perhaps some
cross-promotion during sports programming of other and
the under-represented categories programming.
15104 As regards to regional programming, I
believe that in the under-represented categories across
the country it would be really great to see some
independent production, particularly in the documentary
and children's areas across the country and not just in
drama, which has been the primary focus.
15105 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Is your view
on sports based on the presumption that the sports is
making money for the CBC?
15106 MS KEATLEY: I will just address that
and if anyone else would like to address it --
15107 I think that sports has an audience,
a Canadian audience and people who tune in to the CBC
and who like that, it is a branded -- "Hockey Night in
Canada" is a branded thing for the CBC, so to take that
away from them, I don't think is necessarily fair.
15108 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Again, can I
just underscore what I did the other day. I haven't
heard anybody suggest, at this table, at least, that
CBC should be out of sports.
15109 MS KEATLEY: Right.
15110 MS McDONALD: Commissioner Colville,
I think Robin Cass can tell you, we have learned a lot
about sports programming and -- I am sure you have too,
lately.
15111 Recently we had a meeting with Bell
Expressvu and it goes to the point about
cross-promotion. We were talking about feature films
and some of their plans for the future and they started
talking about what they have learned about
cross-promoting from sports into feature films and
Canadian feature films.
15112 So I think Robin would agree with me
that we found out that if there is an opportunity to
cross-promote from sports into Canadian feature films
or other dramatic series, so it was a very -- they had
some very good data. It was a very interesting way
of -- they understood the audience, where the audience
would come from and so not only do we understand the
importance of sports to Canadians in this and all of
the points that Julia made, we also found new
advantages in the sports area, as long as Julia said,
there is some scheduling predicability so that
important series don't find themselves cut off too
early in the broadcast schedule.
15113 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Would it
be -- sorry.
15114 MS SCHUYLER: Sorry. I was just
going to say, I wouldn't mind adding to the importance
of cross-promotion during sports. I mean, sports is
part of our cultural tapestry and we do get a
particular audience there and the taxpayers who are
supporting the CBC, there are a certain number of them
who get real value out of that time that sports is on
the air.
15115 In the first year that "Riverdale"
came on the air, we were concerned about the amount of
promotion that we were getting with the CBC and we
presented a proposal to the CBC that we would produce a
pool of ads that would be made specifically to run
through the Olympics. And we had examples of this
man -- the men's downhill and then we would do a few
quick cuts of how one of our characters was spiralling
down and down hill in his personal life. And it became
a quick flash that went on during the Olympics.
15116 After the Olympics, we had more
recognition for "Riverdale" than we had ever got
before, because we were able to put the name of this
fledgling dramatic program out there in front of a
major audience. So I think that if we are going to be
running sports, they are revenue generating, they do
appeal to a certain audience and they should be there.
But we should be maximizing the promotional
opportunities at the same time.
15117 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Given what I
have heard then, so far this morning, would it be an
over-simplification if I suggested in terms of this
priority issue then that if the CBC did more in terms
of children's and youth programming, minimum the 22.5
hours that you referred to, perhaps in order to achieve
that target, replace "The Simpsons" with something else
a little more -- well, something Canadian, and did no
American movies in the movie slot that the CFTPA
members would be happy in terms of the priority issue?
15118 MS SCHUYLER: Well, in terms of
priority setting, I think that there is one key thing
that Stephen said earlier that I would like to support.
And that is the priority of independent production.
15119 I think it is really sobering when we
look -- it is not sobering, it is actually quite
delightful, that we look at what happened when the CBC
had $400 million removed from its Parliamentary
appropriation and yet, at the same time, was able to go
forward and present to the Canadian public a prime time
schedule that was almost 100 per cent Canadian.
15120 There is only one way they were able
to achieve that. There was only one way they were able
to do more with less and that was by partnering with
the independent sector. So when you ask how are we
going to take these extra dollars and stretch them so
that we are going to include long form drama and all
these other activities that we are asking for, it is
crucial that the CBC partner with the independent
sector and partner with the independent sector in prime
time, off prime time, late night. That is the way that
they are going to make their dollars go further, that
they can accomplish all the priorities that we are
hoping to see.
15121 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So I take
your point. So with the exception of the two issues
though of the American films and the youth programming,
the sense of your view is we think you have got the
balance about right, just within that balance, spend
more money on our members instead of doing it in-house.
15122 MS McDONALD: Clearly we are here to
represent the interests of our members and so I
wouldn't be honest with you if I wasn't going to
acknowledge that.
15123 However, I think that Linda brought
forward a very important issue. That when the
government cut that $400 million from the CBC's budget,
then they established the Canadian Television Fund and
part of the goal then was to encourage the CBC to
partner with the independent production sector and they
were able to Canadianize. That's been good for the
broadcasting system. It is increasing the audiences to
Canadian programming and yes, it has been good for our
members, as well.
15124 But last night we were discussing as
a group what we were going to say and we were looking
at this issue and it is a win for the CBC, it is a win
for Canadian audiences and it is a win for us. So I
think you have to look at it within that, not just
narrowly our members.
15125 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I hope I
didn't imply by the tone of my question that I thought
there was anything wrong with the proposal that you
should be championing the cause of your members or
indeed that there is anything wrong with encouraging
more use of independent production. As you know, I
come from a part of the country that has done fairly
well over the last few years in terms of independent
production on the CBC.
15126 Let's switch to the second sort of
major issue then, because I think this issue about the
amount of independent production goes to your second --
if I read your brief right, there are really two main
points that you have here. One is this priorities
issue and the second one is kind of the terms of trade
question which speaks to many of the issues that relate
to independent production and independent producers.
15127 Let me start by picking up just a
comment, and I appreciate that in discussing this issue
that you are in the midst of discussions with the CBC,
they have already indicated to us -- I guess you will
be having discussions on this very point in Banff in
another few days, and I don't want to compromise those
discussions in any way, so if you are uncomfortable
about answering some of these questions in view of
those that are coming up, feel free to say so.
15128 But I noted that in your covering
letter in the third paragraph, the biggest paragraph
that you sent for your written submission, in the
second last sentence, you said:
Therefore we submit the
recommendations contained within
our intervention as constructive
input which we believe will
enable the CBC and the CFTPA
to...
15129 And these are the words I wanted to
underscore:
...revitalize relations between
the public broadcaster and
independent producers.
15130 I guess as a background to having a
little more discussion about this terms of trade issue,
I would like to get a sense of what it is we are trying
to revitalize, what you see as the problem areas. What
are the areas that this -- the issues? And I do want
to get into some of the more specific issues, but I
want to get here just more of a general sense of what
you see as the areas that are being somewhat
problematic in terms of the relationship between the
independent industry and the CBC?
15131 MS McDONALD: I am going to let other
members of the panel answer this in substance. I think
I am the one chose the word "revitalize the relations"
and so I should speak to that.
15132 When we were looking towards this
renewal process and we expected that if we put in an
intervention that we would be, as a major association,
representing interests who deal with the CBC, we
expected that we would be invited to be here today or
the day that you chose. And we could have done a lot
of things. We could have put in a very big
intervention that dealt with a whole lot of issues that
you have probably heard us discuss before and indeed,
originally we tried to cover that in the Canadian
content hearings through our recommendation of an
ombudsman.
15133 And those discussions evolved to the
concept of terms of trade. And what we wanted to do
was develop a better dialogue with the CBC so that some
of the issues that are traditionally brought before
this body to deal with, between the CBC and independent
producers in fact could be dealt with in a mechanism
that would be ongoing, constructive and that people
wouldn't be running either to Canadian Heritage or to
the CRTC, but in fact, as true grown-ups in the system,
we would begin to deal with them between ourselves.
15134 So that would be a revitalization.
And this is particularly important on behalf of our
small and medium sized members who have creative ideas
and find themselves dealing, and by the sheer size of
the mandate it was a very large corporation and for
emerging filmmakers, this is particularly true, to try
to develop an environment that is comfortable both for
them and protects their interests, as well as in many
cases, protecting the interests of the CBC outside of
the glare of the bright lights.
15135 Linda?
15136 MS SCHUYLER: I will hand it to you
in just a sec, Stephen.
15137 One of the benefits, as we mentioned
earlier, that has happened over the last two or three
years is that there is more and more independent
production happening with the CBC. And there are
certain people -- there are certain independent
companies who have more benefits than others. And some
of these are just sheerly by being closer to where the
decisions are being made, some of them are just having
been around long enough, like I dread to say the 20
years that I have been dealing with the CBC and we want
to try and level the playing field for our producers.
15138 The CBC is a big complex organization
and it is difficult somehow to know how to gain access
and once you have gained access to know exactly what
you should expect in terms of the types of deals you
should be cutting with the CBC, especially in respect
to the kinds of rights that should be given away in
exchange for a licence fee.
15139 So we figure that we have studied
models both with the BBC and PAT, which is our
counterpart in Britain and we studied models with the
ABC and SPA, which is the producers association in
Australia, both who have gone through the exercise of
developing terms of trade with their respective
broadcasters. And what they have achieved here is to
level the playing field for producers. To have an
environment where people feel that they know the terms
and conditions going in, and it also works for the
broadcaster, as well.
15140 I will ask Stephen, who is heading up
our commitment to do the terms of trade to get more
specifically into what we hope to accomplish.
15141 MR. ELLIS: Thank you, Linda.
15142 First of all, I would just like to
add to something Elizabeth said. I think our industry
has matured rapidly in a short period of time in terms
of the sheer output of programming and it has been very
successful and to a great extent because of the CBC's
support in commissioning a lot of independent
production. So I would perhaps suggest that another
term, rather than "revitalize" might be "invigorate".
To further invigorate the sector because there is a lot
of vigorous activity, but the CBC being a large
corporation and a lot of our members small, we think it
would be constructive to have a clear set of guidelines
that would inform producers and also be useful for CBC,
so that we are both working from the same hymn sheet as
partners in programming.
15143 The sorts of things that would be
addressed in a terms of trade agreement include what
types of commissions are available from the
broadcaster, the sorts of rights that they are going to
be interested in acquiring or licensing. How resources
might be shared --
15144 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You are
starting to go down through the headings and actually,
I was going to get you to kind of describe for us, if
you could, what you see as being the issues that sort
of fall out of each of those headings that are listed
at paragraph 89, page 21 in the appendix to your brief.
15145 So instead of just stating what
they -- it would be helpful if we had an understanding
of what you see as the issues within those.
15146 MS McDONALD: I think what we would
like to do, Mr. MacMillan would like to add something
to the issue of terms of trade I think at this point.
However, as much as we would like to more fully define
each of these, we are meeting in Banff with the CBC, we
have done some work and exchanged paper with them on
the agreements in our meetings, both in Australia and
Great Britain. But because it is a negotiating
situation -- we seem to be negotiating on all fronts
lately -- that I think it might be wise if we had those
meetings. But we would be glad to provide, as it moves
along, some of those definitions to the Commission so
that you would, indeed, understand the relationship
that we are evolving.
15147 But as we began the discussions with
the CBC, if I have it right, we began the discussions
and then the CBC through a rather difficult labour
period that distracted some of their resources and then
we had another meeting and they were involved in this
and so we have a joint agreement to -- so we have
provided them with a lot of paper, but they have been
under a bit of strain recently in terms of their
resources. So how we define most of those terms
will -- we have a view, but we haven't discussed them
with the CBC.
15148 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I wasn't
meaning for you to give away your bargaining position,
if you will, in sitting down in this negotiation.
15149 MS McDONALD: This is the CBC, not
ACTRA.
15150 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: It was just a
better sense of what the issues are within each of
those headings.
15151 MS McDONALD: Michael, do you want
to -- Michael MacMillan.
15152 MR. MacMILLAN: I think that one of
the main issues is: What rights does the CBC acquire
in exchange for its licence fee and do those rights
extend beyond the traditional privilege of broadcasting
the program on the CBC's main network?
15153 In other words, do they include new
media rights? Do they include rights outside of
Canada? Do they include the right to broadcast the
program on other Canadian conventional or specialty
channels?
15154 One of the concerns from independent
producers is: To the extent that the CBC does receive
rights beyond the traditional telecast on its main
network, does that in fact reduce the independent
producer's ability to secure other sources of revenue
in the exploitation of those rights? So I think that
is one of the big issues.
15155 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So that is an
issue that wouldn't be just for the smaller members of
your association, that is an issue for everybody?
15156 MR. MacMILLAN: Absolutely. This in
fact goes to the point I wanted to make, which was: I
believe that this terms of trade negotiation is an
important thing, mainly to create efficiency so the CBC
isn't reinventing the wheel and negotiating everything
separately every time it does a separate deal; to
create a sense of fairness so that regardless of size
of program-maker, regardless of region of origin,
regardless of those sorts of things, that the rules are
fairly applied and that terms of trade are fairly
conducted, and not only fair but perceived to be fair,
because let's be frank, especially for small producers,
there is a worry that if they are only making one
series per year and they are in that final negotiation
with the CBC or any customer, for that matter, what
leverage do they really have?
15157 It is very difficult for them. It is
very difficult for them to sit here and speak like I am
speaking. That is biting the hand that feeds you, in
theory, but I do think though that the CBC recognizes
this. I am happy to see them engaged in this
negotiation and I think that for them in the long run,
they will benefit also by the improved optics of
fairness.
15158 MR. ELLIS: I would just like to add
a couple of things to Michael's comments. He has
identified one of the major issues which, you are quite
right, extends right across our membership.
15159 Another area, and I think
historically, it is fair to say that there has been
quite a dynamic between in-house and independent
production at the CBC, and I think our members are
entering into the terms of trade negotiation in a
spirit of willingness to compete on a level playing
field.
15160 In other words, if a commissioning
editor in a particular type of programming within the
CBC has a project or an area in which they want to
produce, then they should be able to look at their
options, both inside and outside the CBC and make an
apples-to-apples comparison of what the benefits would
be from working either way and then making a decision
which is not only efficient for the CBC but one that is
accessible or transparent to the industry.
15161 As Elizabeth has indicated, there is
some reluctance to go into a lot of detail today
because we haven't had our first official meeting with
the CBC, but we would be happy to provide the
Commission with a follow-up report in more detail once
we get those discussions under way.
15162 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I was
intrigued, Mr. MacMillan, by your answer to
Commissioner Cram's question regarding the sort of
further use, if I can say that, of some of the programs
like "Air Farce" and "22 Minutes", and your suggestion
that you would want people to understand that this is
the network for those successful programs.
15163 But I was intrigued, given this issue
and the rights question, because I presume that speaks
to who holds those rights and who is ultimately going
to determine where those rights are going to be
exercised, if you will.
15164 MR. MacMILLAN: Oh! when we were
answering that question before, I thought the question
was: Should a successful show like "Air Farce" or "22
Minutes" remain in its first run or its initial series
of telecasts on the CBC or should it somehow be put up
for bids so that it migrates to another conventional
channel or network in its first run?
15165 I thought it was -- there is some
sort of forced graduation or eviction, as it were, from
the schedule. The program did well. It was then
obliged to go somewhere else.
15166 But after the initial telecast, of
course, all programs should go to "Showcase".
--- Laughter / Rires
15167 MR. MacMILLAN: No, it is natural and
appropriate that they would find other uses on other
conventional networks or other specialty channels.
That's quite fine.
15168 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So that is
the sort of thing that would be part of these
discussions and form part of the framework, I presume,
for this terms of trade agreement?
15169 MR. MacMILLAN: Exactly. And as
there is more fragmentation or more channels, fewer
people watching any particular telecast, that does mean
that for a broadcaster to pay a meaningful licence fee,
which is surely what an independent producer wants, the
broadcaster in return has to receive meaningful
broadcast rights.
15170 In a fragmented world, it is quite
likely that meaningful broadcast rights could be more
than simply an initial couple of telecasts in the first
year or so on the network. It might mean more
telecasts or more telecasts, including on a specialty
channel. That is what is happening on the private side
of the equation.
15171 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: It isn't
clear to me what role you expect the Commission to play
with this sort of thing. While we might applaud this
terms of trade agreement as being generally a good
idea, typically, the Commission doesn't get involved in
the day-to-day business dealings between broadcasters
and producers, be they the private broadcasters or the
CBC.
15172 So it isn't clear to me. You have
referred in that paragraph 58 in your written
submission that we stayed our support in the decision
and I think you referred to that again in your brief
this morning. Then you talked about:
"We would encourage the CRTC to
impose a mechanism for tracking
the progress of the
discussions."
15173 It isn't clear to me what role you
expect the Commission to play with respect to this
agreement.
15174 MS McDONALD: We have seen the
Commission become active in a number of mechanisms that
then govern how programming goes. I think, first of
all, from an independent producer's point of view, the
CRTC renewal process provides us with an opportunity in
a very open forum to have discussions about any
broadcaster or the relationships that exist.
15175 We are not asking you to get involved
in the independent producer/broadcaster discussions
between our members and the CBC, but we are asking that
in your renewal decision that you support these efforts
on the part of both ourselves and the CBC because we
know that if those words are in a decision that there
is the power of suasion that the Commission holds in
the written word, et cetera.
15176 Indeed, in terms of a mechanism, we
have offered to report back to you and that would be a
report we would share, of course, with the CBC. But in
that way perhaps it will put some impetus on us to make
sure we play our role to make that product, the terms
of trade, come and be available, et cetera, as it is in
the U.K. and as it is in Australia.
15177 I know, in terms of the U.K., the way
that they did it, they did it through another
regulatory body, which was their Competition Bureau.
In discussions with them, with PAT, they suggested that
the CRTC because of its involvement here publicly, et
cetera, it would be appropriate and the issues were
appropriate to things that often are brought up to the
Commission.
15178 So we are just looking for your
support and we know that you have monitored other
processes like the development of the violence code, et
cetera. This, I think, would be an important step
forward to taking some of the issues that are often
brought to your door off the table. So it speaks to
some of the efficiency areas that the Commission has
encouraged in the system and the partnerships.
15179 MR. MacMILLAN: If I may add just one
more thing on this topic. It goes beyond the
traditional negotiation about money; the supplier
always wants to charge more and vice versa. But we
know that over the -- or we presume that over the next
five years or seven years that these new media, the
Internet, will continue to converge with traditional
broadcasting.
15180 We believe and hope there will be yet
more Canadian specialty services licensed and launched.
We believe that in this fragmentation, both of
old-fashioned conventional and old-fashioned specialty
channels, as well as new media distribution mechanisms,
that it is going to change the environment radically
and the nature of the rights that the CBC receives from
an independent producer in this terms of trade
negotiation goes to the heart of what the CBC's role
ought to be in the future.
15181 Is it just the broadcaster or is it a
rights holder? If it is a rights holder, for how long
across and how wide a set of uses?
15182 So we think it is an essential
discussion, one that should be applied fairly and with
great thought across all suppliers. It is not just how
much dollars we get paid for our programs, it goes to
the heart of who is doing what to whom.
15183 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You mentioned
specialty channels and new media which, I guess, makes
a bit of a segue into the issue of constellations and
new media. This was again an area where I thought you
were probably playing a fairly delicate role.
15184 The words you chose in your brief, in
the section talking about additional shelf space,
paragraphs 61 through 63 -- as I read it, 61 was
essentially saying: Yes, no problem, constellation is
okay. Then the other shoe fell in 62 and 63 where you
start raising what the concerns seem to be about it.
15185 You seem to start off by saying it is
not such a bad idea, but the more I read, the more I
thought that you didn't think it was such a good idea
after all. So what do you really think about this
constellation issue and the new media question because
in the case of new media, you talk about the
$20 million?
15186 I think it has been noted and I want
to ask you about regional programming -- but it has
been noted that they are spending as much in one year
on new media as they propose to spend in seven years on
the regional non-news programming initiative that they
have put forward. So what is your view on the
constellation issue and the new media question?
15187 MS McDONALD: I think it is clearly a
challenging question that you have asked the CFTPA
because we represent new media producers. The issue of
shelf space, I think you have probably -- at least in
the four years I have been at the CFTPA, we talk about
shelf space all the time, and that is important.
15188 So we will never do anything but
support the creation of new shelf space for Canadian
programming because it is so hard to find those
Canadian voices and choices in the ever-expanding
universe.
15189 The issue for us is priorities, I
think. We have all seen the difficulties the CBC has
to deal with. So how is it going to move forward with
these constellations if it still has the same amount of
resources?
15190 In some cases, they may go into
partnership with others and that may be the way they
will achieve the constellation model. But I guess from
our point of view, we looked at it and thought that the
ideas certainly made sense in terms of any broadcaster
wanting to go forward and be part of the 500-channel
universe. The problem for us was we couldn't see how.
15191 Again, when we looked at new media,
we saw exactly what you saw, which is the ability to
redirect those dollars towards new media. At the same
time, we can't figure out -- we see what we think is,
in feature films, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
You know, we are going to take it from one part of the
budget and move it to another because we certainly
don't see any new money to achieve that.
15192 So I think, while we applaud the
creation of new shelf space, particularly for Canadian
programming, and while we think that broadcasters and
producers should work together to explore any new
opportunities within technology, it has to make sense
within a business case and be within the priorities of
what is possible.
15193 Members of the CFTPA are all business
people and in fact the Association is a not-for-profit
business. There are things I can't do sometimes, as
much as we would like to, because we have "X" amount of
resources and things fall off the table.
15194 So it is not to stop the CBC going
forward, it is just to ensure that as it goes forward
that we all understand where those resources are going
to come from.
15195 There are creative ways to do it in
terms of the new media. One of the things we --
15196 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I am sorry to
interrupt, but is it as much a question of where they
are coming from as where they could go to otherwise?
15197 MS SCHUYLER: Well, I guess, for
us -- and as Elizabeth has reminded us, we do represent
300 voices on this issue -- I think we recognize that
the CBC is in a broadcasting environment where
specialty channels are springing up like mushrooms and
the Internet is exploding, and to clip their wings and
not allow them to go out there would not be very
forward-thinking.
15198 They need to emphasize the importance
of their flagship service, which is what they provide
fundamentally to Canadians. But from a producer's
perspective, if we are going forward into
constellations, if we are going forward into the new
media, then it has to be in partnership with the
independent production sector and any of these new
activities have to be subject to the terms of trade
that we are negotiating because only that way can we
support them branching out into these new areas.
15199 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You seem to
be implying in oral brief, perhaps even more so than in
the written brief that perhaps the only way the CBC
should be into the specialty arena would be in a
partnership with some other private sector player?
15200 MS McDONALD: Well, I am sure Mr.
MacMillian would like to address that issue, but the --
as the Commission knows, I was actually the project
manager when CBC Newsworld got its licence. And the
environment was much different, there was a better
opportunity to have a basic service, et cetera. And
the issues around what that would mean to the consumer
were important, but perhaps not as pressing as they are
now from listening to the Commission, et cetera.
15201 So it would seem to us that if the
CBC's resources aren't going to grow, but it wants to
be part of the future, it is not going to be able to do
it on its own. It is almost a practical response to
it.
15202 Also, as you proceed into specialty
services, et cetera, you are getting into -- if you
look at the Act, et cetera -- a more private sector
line of business. So it would seem that the partnering
is a good way for a public institution to go forward.
15203 So it is from that perspective and
the practical issue of looking at the resources
available for the CBC, you can't keep taking 2 per cent
of efficiencies. I mean, either at a certain point
people go back to the age old question, "Is the CBC
inefficient because they can always find efficiency
gains every year", or "Are there ways to do this that
allows the CBC to be part of the future".
15204 Michael?
15205 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: It sounded
like a "yes".
15206 MR. MacMILLAN: Well, on that precise
point I think, and in our presentation a few minutes
ago Phyllis Yaffe made the points that we think that
CBC should be allowed and encouraged to take new media
and new specialty channel initiatives in partnership
with private partners.
15207 But my last comment on this topic
would be, we shouldn't get too bogged down, I think, in
the detail of CBC spending 2 per cent of their budget
this year on new media or whatever. This is a
seven-year or whatever, five-year, who knows, a long
time renewal. And the exact details of the landscape
seven years from now are going to look a lot different
than they are today. We know things are going to
change.
15208 I think we should be encouraging our
national public broadcaster to remain with it, to
remain innovative, to be on the leading edge. We don't
want to be the people who said, "Oh, colour television
is not the future, let's stay black and white. A
national network signal is not the future or cable
delivery or DTH isn't". The world is changing and we
can't -- we can't hamstring our national public
broadcaster, especially knowing that this renewal is
for a lifetime. Five or seven years is a long period.
So they ought to be encouraged and we shouldn't get
bogged down in the details of is it 2 per cent or 1 per
cent.
15209 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Well, I take
your point, Mr. MacMillan, not getting bogged down in
details and I am not sure we do, nor do we want to get
into the situation of actually kind of putting
ourselves in the role of managing the day-to-day
operations of the CBC. But you, yourselves, one of
your fundamental points that you raised in your written
submission and again today is the whole issue of
priorities and I guess that is fundamentally what it
comes down to is, what should the priorities be for the
public broadcaster and I don't know that it is
necessarily the role for the CRTC to say, "No, you
probably shouldn't be spending this particular money in
new media" or whatever.
15210 But almost everybody who has appeared
before us has raised this question of what are the
priorities. What should the priorities be? And people
are saying well they should do more of this or more of
that. A few people are saying what should be done less
of in order to accommodate this more and you,
yourselves, have raised the question about how much of
this money is diverted to independent production versus
how much is spent elsewhere. So that gets into that
kind of question. I don't know how you can avoid that
issue.
15211 I realize you don't want to get too
petty about it, but you, yourselves, are suggesting we
should be focussing on how much of this money goes to
independent producers as to how much is spent in-house.
15212 MR. MacMILLAN: Oh, yes. What I
meant "don't get bogged down in details", I was
accusing us, the CFTPA, of being bogged down in details
because we were referring to the 2 per cent new media
expenditures. But also, we are not always consistent
anyway.
15213 So we are, for sure, bogging you down
in details about the issue of independent production,
but that's our prime concern and that's why we existed
as an association. I was just referring to our
submission on the new media point.
15214 I don't think you can tell them
specifically, you know, do this, this and this and
three quarts of this and two ounces of this or whatever
the metric is. That is going to be micro-managing and
not appropriate over a seven-year term. So I agree.
15215 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I don't want
to take too much time here.
15216 Let me just ask you -- I can't go
without focussing a question on the region. You have
mentioned it is important, it is one of the items that
you have listed in your list for part of the terms of
trade issue as regional development. You did mention
in your submission a concern about the regions.
15217 What is your view on the particular
proposal the CBC's brought forward in terms of the
non-news regional programming for the regions?
15218 MS McDONALD: Julia, would you like
to address this?
15219 MS KEATLEY: I think in terms of
regional production, the CBC has been very active
across the country. There are ways of addressing them,
I mean, I know that there are various suggestions that
have come up in terms of, you know, perhaps you should
have pockets of money or various things. I think that
there are ways, particularly in development in the
under-represented categories of having true pockets of
money across the country that are spent and developed.
15220 It is in the development of ideas and
of producers and writers where you really get the
growth. That's the long-term commitment and I think if
in partnership with the network, the regions have
participation in that, whether it be with regional
directors or whatever, that that can make a real
difference.
15221 A network has to have a national
schedule and I think that all of us need to feed into
that national schedule and the best ideas are the ones
that should be ultimately broadcast.
15222 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So I take it
you think this is a good initiative. I appreciate that
there is never enough money, but do you think that this
is enough money that is being proposed for the, I guess
it is nine regions now, to do this job? It's $250,000
in each year starting in year two as seed money for
each of the nine regions.
15223 MS KEATLEY: You know, it is very
specific. I would hate to say that I don't think you
want to get into a population base or a various base.
I think what it really comes down to is partnering in
real decision-making and having that power coming from
within the regions.
15224 There are various ways -- at the B.C.
producer's branch, for example, one of the things that
we did as an initiative was working with a number of
broadcasters to bring them in to meet with various
producers because they didn't feel they had access to
them. It is building bridges of different kinds.
Obviously money is one of the ways you can do that and
making true commitments to that.
15225 So yes, I mean, it is a good
initiative.
15226 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Ms
McDonald, did you want to add anything?
15227 MS McDONALD: I was just trying to
avoid getting into the details of the money. So I
think that while we think the initiative is good, I
think Mr. MacMillan's warning was well to be heeded.
It is because the -- bringing together the CBC budget
is so complex. But I think we do applaud the
initiative very much so and any others that we can work
with the CBC to do. That is part of what the terms of
trade will help us do is to help bridge that mechanism
also, not only in financial terms, but into developing
with the CBC new ways to reach to our regional members.
15228 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Thank
you very much for your answers to my questions.
15229 Thank you.
15230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Vice-Chair Wylie has a question for you, as well.
15231 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I assume that
you have all been watching this proceeding. I find it
quite interesting that depending on where they are
coming from, parties come forward and tell us we should
not micro-manage the CBC, except in areas of interest
to them and then it gets quite precise, even to the
point of five hours.
15232 Thank you.
15233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Legal advisor, Ms
Pinsky has a question, as well.
15234 MS PINSKY: Is the APFTQ involved in
the discussions that you are having with the CBC?
15235 MS McDONALD: We work very closely
the APFTQ and so we rarely do anything without them.
As you know, the APFTQ has just gone through a change
of leadership with the loss of Madam Baillargeon and so
while we have met with the new President of APFTQ and
he wants to continue working with us on as many areas,
we would like them to be involved, but our focus has
been with the English television network and we would
presume that they would develop an appropriate
mechanism. They are very interested with the French
television network, it is a different environment and a
different membership.
15236 But we do work jointly and exchange
information with them all the time and they like the
idea.
15237 MS PINSKY: Okay. And I wonder if
you have any views in terms of what the role, if any,
the CBC has in terms on non-news in-house production?
15238 MS McDONALD: Clearly, we believe
that the CBC will do best in its partnering with the
independent production sector, as we have said.
15239 And indeed, because of the way that
we can bring different financing partners to the table,
we believe that in the non-news, non-sports area that
partnering with the independent production sector as
much as possible and less in-house or no in-house is
probably the best way for the CBC to go.
15240 I noted when you were talking to
Alliance Atlantis previously, you asked us -- you asked
a similar question, but took it to the issue of risk
and so I think probably the Canadian content hearings
were quite clear about what we see our role as in risk
in terms of financing. And we were trying to, as we
were preparing, discuss the terms of risk of preparing
programming and what an independent producer does, et
cetera, and to that end, I would like Mr. Cass to
address "The Tale of Teeka".
15241 MR. CASS: Thank you. I guess this
will be my closing out on all this. To me this is a
bit of an inspirational story in terms of a very small
independent production company and I just want to table
an example of a relationship that we had with CBC and
SRC recently on a children's program called "The Tale
of Teeka".
15242 And it is our company's view,
certainly, that this kind of relationship was only
possible with a strong -- you know, within the context
of a strong public broadcaster who was willing to
support a kind of activity that it was highly risky and
unusual and they were flexible, they were visionary and
it resulted in a children's hour drama that was double
shot in English and French, that both networks picked
up, that won a number of Géneaux Awards, that won a
Banff Rocky -- which I guess is arguably the Olympics
of television -- that is currently nominated for a very
prestigious Pre-Italia(ph), that took our small
company, along with Peter Moss and Phyllis Platt and
George Anthony, five long years of patience and
diligence and tenacity to nurture. And I think that
that kind of creative partnership that I believe is the
best possible example of what our members like about
the CBC should be applauded and hopefully we can look
to more of that kind of activity as we redefine and
establish what the mandate is going to be.
15243 MS McDONALD: I think -- the reason
we went to an example, rather, is to underline that
there have some suggestion that if you work in-house it
is going to be more risky and innovative. But I think
when you look at programs like "The Tale of Teeka" and
many of the other programs that our members produce in
many different genre, you can see that the independent
production sector can produce the programming that was
risk-taking both financially and with audiences, et
cetera and can work with the broadcaster in that way.
15244 So we are just trying to exemplify
that that is possible and I think everybody here has
spoken quite eloquently of our ability to bring other
financial partners to the table. And clearly, if you
look at the CBC's financial situation, their situation
needs to be stabilized with the government because it
is a sort of ongoing target, to try to stabilize its
financing and then find new ways to bring other dollars
to the table at the same time delivering the innovative
programming.
15245 MS SCHUYLER: Can I just pick up one
point on in-house production.
15246 Obviously, our position is that if
the CBC is going to be producing in the
under-represented categories, we want it in partnership
with the independent sector. However, one of the
issues in our terms of trade is looking for
transparency. And if there is going to be in-house CBC
production, we want it in an environment that it is
very transparent, that we can see exactly what it is
that the costs are going to be to the CBC. And there
has been a tremendous frustration on behalf of the
independent producers community that when there has
been in-house production, we haven't been able to
identify what those costs are.
15247 I mean, if CBC is going to go forward
and it is going to be bringing the best to Canadians,
it shouldn't matter, theoretically where it comes from,
how it gets to the screen, as long as it is the best
programming that it can be at the most effective price.
So if we had an opportunity that we can compare apples
and apples with in-house production and going with
independent production, then some of our frustration
might be alleviated in that area, but up until now,
there has been no way of making any fair comparison.
So we are left with no other alternative but to suggest
that all non-news programming should be produced in
partnership with the independent sector.
15248 MS PINSKY: Thank you. Those are all
my questions.
15249 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much. Thank you.
15250 We will take a pause of 15 minutes
and be back. We don't intend to stop for lunch, we
will hear all the intervenors, then have lunch.
15251 Thank you.
--- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1100
--- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1115
15252 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, madame la
secrétaire, voulez-vous présentez le prochain
intervenant, qu'on connaît déjà, d'une certaine
manière.
15253 MS BÉNARD: Thank you, Madam Chair.
The next presentation will be by Epitome Pictures.
INTERVENTION
15254 MS SCHUYLER: She's back.
15255 We welcome the opportunity to amplify
our submission and respond to some of the issues that
have been raised by other organizations.
15256 I am Linda Schuyler from Epitome
Pictures. Our corporate perspective is very much that
of a small- to medium-sized company.
15257 We have a history of working on one
project at a time, beginning nearly 20 years ago with
the various permutations of the "DeGrassi" series,
continuing with numerous documentaries, the dramatic
"Liberty Street", and now English Canada's first prime
time soap opera, "Riverdale", which starts shooting its
third season just next week.
15258 With me is Stephen Stohn, partner in
the entertainment law firm, Stohn Henderson,
Vice-President of Epitome Pictures and executive
producer of "Riverdale" and also of Canada's music
awards show, the "Juno Awards" and the lifestyle series
"Savoir Faire".
15259 MR. STOHN: Thank you, Linda. Last
year, we made written submissions and appeared before
you during the course of the Canadian Television
Review. We were grateful for the opportunity to
discuss a number of issues at that time. At least some
of those issues have relevance to today's hearing.
15260 During the Canadian Television
Review, we made the case that small- to medium-sized
production companies have an important role to play in
the Canadian broadcasting system, disproportionate to
their size, revenues or profits. These small- to
medium-sized companies are ideally suited to foster
innovation, diversity and creativity, which sometimes
can be inadvertently stifled in larger organizations.
15261 At the same time, we recognized that
there are often benefits of scale and scope available
to larger production entities and which are not
directly accessible by small companies. So we
concluded by submitting that the existence of a mixed
production environment, in terms of company size and
business plans, results in a creative and competitive
tension that is ultimately highly beneficial for the
broadcasting system.
15262 A core element of our submission in
this hearing is quite similar -- that there is no
single best way to produce each and every CBC program.
A mixed production environment is the most economical
and effective one.
15263 The individuals at CBC who are
responsible for acquiring programming need to have real
and unencumbered freedom of choice so that their
acquisition philosophy can be based absolutely upon
achieving the highest quality and most diverse
programming in the most cost-efficient manner.
15264 Last fall, Linda and I were fortunate
enough to have the opportunity to be in Sydney, where
we had a number of meetings with various Australian
producers, funding agencies and broadcasters. Before
and since then, we have similarly met with British
producers and broadcasters. A clear message has come
through to us.
15265 For a broadcaster to have real
freedom of choice in programming acquisition, there are
two essential conditions:
15266 (1) The in-house production division
of the broadcaster should be separate and distinct from
the programming acquisition division. Otherwise, the
persons responsible for commissioning programming will
inevitably be subject to subtle and not-so-subtle
pressure to give preference to in-house productions.
15267 (2) There needs to be a transparent
mechanism to make apples-to-apples comparisons between
in-house and independent productions, as well as a
clear statement of the standard terms and conditions of
production commissioning.
15268 This is best accomplished through an
agreement -- we have called it a Working Practices
Agreement and the CFTPA has called it a Terms of Trade
Agreement, but it is one and the same thing -- which
ensures that independent productions are treated in an
even-handed manner both in relation to other
independent productions and also in relation to
in-house productions.
15269 Our written submission to you made
the case for a formalized structural separation of the
four core mandates of the CBC. While we obviously feel
that there is merit in this full-blown structural
separation, what we wish to underline to you today is
our view that the most important structural separation
is accomplished by having a separate CBC production
division.
15270 Separating out the production
division combined with entering into a Working
Practices Agreement should result in the production of
programming for CBC in absolutely the most effective
and cost-efficient manner, consistent with high quality
and diversity.
15271 We are extremely encouraged that in
the course of the meetings leading up to and following
the filing of the various submissions in this hearing,
CBC itself has clearly recognized the value in a
Working Practices Agreement and indeed has stated to
you its support for such an agreement. Your formal
recognition of the importance of this would be helpful
in ensuring that it remains a priority after the
hearing process has concluded.
15272 Accordingly, we ask that you consider
endorsing both a move to structural separation of CBC's
in-house production activities and the entering into of
a Working Practices Agreement within a reasonable time
and that you consider augmenting this endorsement by
indicating a willingness to become involved if you were
asked to help mediate the negotiation of such an
agreement.
15273 MS SCHUYLER: In the Canadian content
segment of the Canadian Television Review, another
issue which we addressed was providing enhanced program
recognition for programs which were not just Canadian
within the bare-bones CAVCO definition but went
significantly further and were identifiably Canadian in
that their primary purpose was reflecting Canadian life
to Canadians.
15274 We made the case that while there was
value in all forms of Canadian content, the greatest
value lies in the identifiably Canadian programs.
15275 We are pleased to note that the
Canadian Television Fund has since modified its
eligibility requirements so that funding under either
side of the CTF is now provided only to productions
that are essentially what we call identifiably
Canadian.
15276 In the context of the current
hearing, however, this distinction is interesting but
virtually irrelevant. The essential nature of CBC is
that it is identifiably Canadian.
15277 The CBC has not needed enhanced
program recognition or any other incentive to encourage
it to produce more identifiably Canadian programs. On
the contrary, its weekday prime time schedule for this
coming fall is already virtually 100 per cent
identifiably Canadian. This is an excellent
achievement and should not be underestimated.
15278 There are of course other parts of
the CBC schedule which are yet to be so identifiably
Canadian. We applaud the significant moves that the
CBC has been making, but at the same time, we trust
that over the forthcoming licence term, the momentum
towards all-Canadian programming throughout the
schedule -- and certainly to an all-non-American
line-up -- will be carried forward with vigour.
15279 There are those who say that the
inclusion of commercials has driven CBC to look too
much like a private broadcaster. But examining the CBC
schedule, it seems clear to us that CBC has achieved a
broad mix of popular as well as niche programming
designed to appeal to Canadians in all regions and
social strata.
15280 Doing so through the overwhelming use
of identifiably Canadian programming is unambiguous
evidence that commercial advertising on CBC has not
materially affected its prime mandate. As a result,
removing commercials would appear to have very little
benefit other than some small gains in viewer
satisfaction.
15281 The only practical way to replace the
lost revenues from commercials and the additional
revenues that would be required to acquire the
programming to replace the time on the schedule now
filled with these commercials would appear to be
significantly increased government funding.
15282 As we mentioned in our written
submission, in our view, the Canadian government would
be better served by stabilizing the funding to CBC by
measures such as giving targeted allocations to fund
digital conversation and programming acquisition and
promotion, and by introducing a guaranteed 50 per cent
CBC envelope to the Canadian Television Fund rather
than spending hundreds of millions of dollars to remove
commercials from the CBC.
15283 MR. STOHN: The inclusion of
commercial advertising has not stopped CBC from
broadcasting ground-breaking drama programming.
15284 Now in its third season, our own
"Riverdale" is a success story. But in the beginning,
there was a great risk to launching an English-language
soap opera. It was something never done before
successfully and the broadcaster willing to take that
risk was CBC.
15285 CBC takes great pride in taking risks
and in pushing the creative envelope with recent series
like "Foolish Heart", "Twitch City", "Gullages", "More
Tears", "Dooley Gardens", "Made in Canada" and others,
including the new series "In Tha' Mix", which starts
"Riverdale"'s own Merwin Mondesir, and a brand new soap
opera, produced in Vancouver and aimed specifically at
teens, called "Edgemont Road".
15286 In the past, it was CBC who placed
faith in a then-fledgling production company and
ordered a series which for the first time told
non-judgmental stories from the point of view of
Canadian teenagers and reached out to teens through the
world with a core message which is equally vital today:
Whatever difficulties you may face, depression,
parents, school, alcohol, drugs, sexuality, abuse, you
are not alone. The series was "DeGrassi" and the
broadcaster was CBC.
15287 Whether it be introducing low-cost
high-volume drama into the English Canadian
broadcasting system or taking a chance on new producers
or new program ideas, the CBC has been a leader. We
think it is important to underscore that it has
accomplished this leadership role within the context of
a broad programming mix.
15288 It is not a PBS North model which has
fostered this programming. Rather, it is a broad
appeal model, including commercials and sports
programming, in addition to underrepresented
programming, within which the CBC's drama and other
underrepresented programs have been able to flourish.
15289 Obviously, it is vital that CBC
maintain a proper overall balance in its schedule, but
depriving CBC of commercials and profit-generating
programming like sports would hurt the very programming
which advocates of the PBS North model think will be
enhanced.
15290 We hope that sharing some of our own
experience with you has given some soul to our written
support for a strong CBC with a broad mandate to
continue its identifiably Canadian programming aimed at
all Canadians.
15291 We thank you again for the
opportunity to make these remarks and would be happy to
answer any questions you might have.
15292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much. I would ask Commissioner Pennefather to ask the
questions.
15293 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
15294 Good morning. In your written
submission and your oral remarks today, you have made
some very specific suggestions and recommendations
regarding the management of the CBC and it is quite
clear. So I don't have many questions, but I would
like a clarification on one suggestion and that
concerns the transmission agency.
15295 You are proposing that an agency be
created on the model of the Australian Transmission
Agency, which is a separate organization from the
broadcaster ABC. As you know, this Agency serves the
interests of not only the Australian Broadcasting
Corporation but also SBS and 250 clients.
15296 I would like to know how you see such
an agency benefitting the CBC and I would also like to
know if what you had in mind was transferring from the
CBC capital budget approximately $148 million in
transmission expenditures to such an agency, and from
their operational budget, approximately $69 million in
operational funds devoted to transmission, distribution
and collection. Was it your proposal to transfer these
monies to this separate agency?
15297 Secondly, how would such an agency
serve the interests of the CBC, assuming the model you
are proposing serves the interests of several clients?
15298 MR. STOHN: We did not propose
specific figures, but it certainly was our thought that
the existing activities of the CBC in the transmission
area would carry on in essentially the same manner and
would simply be separated out into a separate division.
Where we saw some benefits to this was firstly from a
purely managerial point of view that you would then
have a management to that entity which was focused
specifically on that and we think that there is some
benefit to that.
15299 Also, there might be an ability to
modify some of the strictures on the CBC which might
enable that division to do something that the CBC as a
whole has not been able to do until this time, namely,
borrowing money in the private capital marketplace.
Part of that activity then might also go to something
that you discussed in the Australian model where the
service is available not just to the CBC but to other
broadcast entities who would be willing to pay fair
value for the service. So we thought a proper business
model could be instituted to create this.
15300 Then our final thought was that if
this agency were in effect that it might give some
encouragement to the Canadian Parliament to say: Well,
we know if we give some money to this agency
specifically targeted to digital conversion, which will
be an enormous issue over the coming years, we know
that that is not going to be siphoned off into some
other area of the CBC, that we can give it in this very
targeted way and encourage the CBC to move to a digital
conversion sooner rather than later without siphoning
off funds from programming or other activities.
15301 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: But
essentially, you are saying then that the government
would reduce the capital budget of the CBC accordingly?
15302 MR. STOHN: Yes, absolutely. The
total would remain the same but it would be split out
into --
15303 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: But it
would be a separate agency?
15304 MR. STOHN: Yes.
15305 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Not under
the direction of the CBC?
15306 That is the Australian model, is that
it is not under the -- we didn't go so far as to in our
mind say "No, it would be entirely separate from the
CBC". Rather, we thought there should be a separate
management structure. Whether that is still under the
overall direction of the CBC Board or not was something
that we didn't address and don't have strong feelings
about one way or another.
15307 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. I
thought I would ask since you set it up as some of the
four core activities that you want to see managed in a
very different manner, and the impact of that on the
CBC budget and the results of that for the CBC were
important to understand.
15308 Thank you very much.
15309 That completes my questions, Madam
Chair.
15310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
15311 Madame Bénard.
15312 MS BÉNARD: The next presentation
will be by Dialogue Canada.
15313 THE CHAIRPERSON: The question is
always relative to the understanding and the need for
clarification, so sometimes when it is a point that is
very clear it allows for shorter questioning.
INTERVENTION
15314 MR. LEGG: Good morning, Madam
President and Members of the Commission.
15315 I would like to thank you for taking
the time to listen to Dialogue Canada and the views
thereof.
15316 If I jump back and forth from French
to English it is certainly not to demonstrate my
capacity in both languages, but it is really to pay
respect to Radio-Canada when I am making comments and
possibly criticisms about them, and vice versa with
regard to the CBC.
15317 What we would first of all like to do
is say that what the CBC and Radio-Canada do they do
very well, and we would like to see both organizations
emerge from these hearings stronger, more confident,
and I fully realize this is not within your purview,
but eventually with more resources.
15318 However, in terms of the main subject
of our presentation today, we do not believe that
either Radio-Canada or the CBC does a very good job in
representing one solitude in terms of their linguistic
blocks to the other. More specifically, we do not
believe that Radio-Canada or the CBC present the lives
or the feelings of Canadians of the other linguistic
group as Canadians sharing the same country.
15319 Now, our judgment is based mainly on
the two radio organizations, but in discussions with
other members of the board of Dialogue Canada I
understand that the same type of commentary applies to
the television networks as well.
15320 Nous croyons que les Québécois ont
l'impression en écoutant Radio-Canada que les Canadiens
de langue anglaise existent à peine. J'exagère un peu
mais pas beaucoup. Exception faite de la politique
fédérale, il y a relativement peu de couverture des
événements dans le reste du Canada. Il y a le Québec
et puis il y a le monde. Il semble exister un vide
entre les deux.
15321 As far as the CBC is concerned, it
does an excellent job in telling English Canadians
about themselves and about the rest of the world, but
we believe they could be telling English Canadians more
about French Canadians, principally in Quebec. A small
number of excellent initiatives have been taken and we
jump to acknowledge these.
15322 First on the list is "C'est La Vie",
a program of one half hour from 7:30 to 8:00 on Friday
nights, animated by Bernard St-Laurent, a respected
journalist who knows Quebec completely.
15323 But daily programming -- and there
has been a bit of a debate, I will say, but mainly from
one member of our board only who contests this -- we
nonetheless believe that in the main programming such
as "This Morning" and "As It Happens", coverage of
French Canadians in Quebec really does not receive its
proportional share. Politics, yes; people, no.
15324 À Radio-Canada, je vous donne trois
exemples: le "Midi quinze"(ph), quoiqu'une excellente
émission, ne discute que des développements au Québec.
Le dimanche matin, sur deux émissions, "Dimanche
Magazine" et "Point de Vue", les auditeurs apprennent
beaucoup plus sur les Algériens et les Indochinois* que
les habitants de Vancouver et de Toronto.
15325 Je dois dire que les informations
nationales et internationales -- et je cite, n'est-ce
pas, le nom des bulletins horaires -- quand il ne
s'agit pas des informations régionales. Les
informations nationales et internationales signifient
souvent en pratique les informations concernant le
Québec et le monde à l'extérieur du Canada.
15326 We therefore recommend that -- and I
will give one or two suggestions -- we recommend that
both CBC and Radio-Canada do more and use more
creativity to inform and promote a greater mutual
knowledge among English and French-speaking Canadians
of the other solitude.
15327 Now, how to go about doing this? Two
possibilities. Two suggestions: The use of
simultaneous translation. Of course, this is done. It
is done now but it is not done enough of, and I would
ask both Radio-Canada and CBC to listen themselves to
the excellent programs which are carried on CBC
overnight. Here I refer particularly to German
International Radio, Finnish, Austrian and Dutch.
15328 What I am referring to specifically
is interviews of Canadiens-français ou
Canadiens-anglais, and after a sentence or two a
voice-over comes and the person is, when it is done
well -- and we certainly have the capacity to do this
in Canada very well -- it is as though the person
himself is talking.
15329 A second specific suggestion, which
has actually been tried once. I was probably out of
the country at the time but I understand there was a
bilingual phone-in program. Whether it was
Radio-Canada or CBC which did it, I don't know. It
might be the equivalent of "Cross Canada Check-up" or
"Tournée d'Amérique".
15330 I understand it was done extremely
well. However, it was done in the context of one of
our periodic national crises and our suggestion is that
this be done periodically. I take the liberty of
suggesting quarterly.
15331 To finish our presentation, I realize
that I am going slightly into the area of selectivity
or representation of reality or not, but let me see the
positive side of this.
15332 Chez Radio-Canada, il y a un an et
demie, on faisait usage de la phrase qui, pour des
Canadiens passionnés, nous mettent en furie. C'est la
phrase: le Québec et le Canada. J'ai bien remarqué
que pendant le référendum, cette phrase a été -- et je
parle du référendum d'octobre 1995 -- cette phrase a
été utilisée beaucoup par certains leaders politiques
et j'ai remarqué qu'il y avait une tendance très forte
parmi les journalistes de Radio-Canada d'utiliser cette
même phrase.
15333 Sans avoir fait une étude
scientifique et objective, je crois que l'usage de
cette phrases est en train de diminuer, mais je dois
dire qu'il s'agit de ne pas respecter la réalité. En
fait, pour ne pas utiliser des grands mots, il s'agit
de... ou un essai de lavage de cerveau. Assez pour cet
exemple-là.
15334 J'utilise un autre exemple du côté du
CBC. From time to time, I don't really know whether it
is because I have missed one or two "Cross Country
Check-up". "Cross Country Check-up" has the tendency
of calling itself Canada's national phone-in show.
Well, it is the phone-in show for English Canadians,
but it is not the phone-in show for French Canadians.
So it cannot really be called Canada's national
phone-in show.
15335 Now, you will say that perhaps I am
being nitpicky here, but I don't believe I am. I
believe it is showing a lack of respect to the other
part of Canada which does not and cannot participate in
the phone-in show unless one is a Québécois couramment
bilingue.
15336 So to finish our presentation, I
would simply say that, as we all know, Canada is a
complex country and the fact that there are two
separate organizations in our radio and television
organization -- and from what we know, they do seem to
operate completely independently -- the fact that there
are these two is indicative of how complex we are.
15337 However, we believe that if policy
direction is given from senior management that both
Radio-Canada and the CBC can play a more positive role
in promoting greater understanding between the two
linguistic groups.
15338 If the CRTC can play a role in any
way in encouraging this, the members of Dialogue Canada
and the vast majority of Canadians would be very
grateful.
15339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
15340 I would ask Commissioner Cram to --
no, it's not you. I'm sorry.
15341 MR. LEGG: Surprise.
--- Laughter / Rires
15342 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's a good thing
I take notes. I always take notes of everything I say
and do, or everything that people say, and they
actually tell me that we don't need the court reporter,
that I can do it.
15343 Interesting. I never thought of the
issue of the national "Cross Country Check-up" being
offensive, and yet it is.
15344 As I listen to you, I think we might
even be better to eventually work towards one CBC/SRC.
Is that sort of what would eventually be your goal?
15345 MR. LEGG: Well, having worked for
31 years within a very large bureaucracy, that is the
federal government, and specifically within External
Affairs, I do see the advantages of merging groups
where there should be emerging policy.
15346 I will give an example. Before
International Trade and External Affairs were merged
you sometimes had Canadian foreign policy going one way
in terms of the political policy, and you had the trade
policy going in another way. At one point about
15 years ago they were merged and there was a different
culture.
15347 Here, as I talk, I am talking also
the CBC and Radio-Canada. There are two very different
cultures obviously. There are French Canadians on one
side and English Canadians on the other, and the
cultures must join to work together. It has worked
extremely well in what is now Foreign Affairs and
International Trade and I would think it would work
extremely well within the CBC/Radio-Canada.
15348 Now, it would take a certain amount
of political courage to do this because I would see it
as an extremely political move. I understand that you
had a presentation recently, that is yesterday, which
was extremely political, from Mr. Bertrand.
15349 Now, I have personally had a number
of talks with journalists, one yesterday, who said
that -- I certainly won't name him, but he talked about
"Le Monde aujourd'hui", which of course is the main
information program at the end of every day from
5:30 to 6:30. He felt slightly offended that I had not
mentioned that program and he insisted that English
Canadians and English Canada appeared in the news very
frequently.
15350 Well, we had a little bit of a debate
about that. But this would be the type of debate which
would go on continuously within a merged organization.
There would be cross-cultural stimulation, fights,
discussions and, frankly, I would love to see an
organization about what you have just talked.
15351 I have grown used to, as many
Canadians have, of having the two organizations
completely separate. But if they were together I think
it would be -- well, I congratulate you on the
brilliant idea, and if I may help in any way to put
this into effect I would love to do so. I think it
would be very positive.
15352 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So
Canadianization was the first step, and merger of the
SRC/CBC is the next?
15353 MR. LEGG: I see nothing but good
that would come from it after an initial furor of many
political groupings and a settling in period. I think
it would be extremely positive.
15354 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very
much, Mr. Legg.
15355 MR. LEGG: You're welcome.
15356 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much, sir.
15357 MR. LEGG: Thank you.
15358 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you part of the
movement Mr. Bertrand is representing?
15359 MR. LEGG: Oh, no. No, no. I
simply -- we, in Dialogue Canada, simply try to follow
all political tendencies, especially having to do with
the question of la souveraineté du Québec ou plutôt
l'unité du Canada qui est l'autre côté de la médaille.
C'est pour cela qu'il faut savoir ces choses-là.
15360 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci infiniment de
votre participation, monsieur.
15361 M. LEGG: Merci, madame.
15362 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.
15363 The next presentation will be by
ACTRA Peformers Guild.
15364 Good morning. How are you?
15365 MR. NEIL: I'm fine. How are you
this morning?
15366 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
15367 Thank you.
INTERVENTION
15368 MR. NEIL: As you can see, I am not
both Brian Gromoff and Gary Neil. I bring apologies
from Mr. Gromoff. Unfortunately a family situation
prevented him from coming here today at the very last
minute.
15369 My name is Gary Neil, I am a policy
advisor to ACTRA and appear in that capacity.
15370 In turn, ACTRA represents more than
13,000 professional performers, actors, singers,
dancers, variety artists, stunt performers and
co-ordinators, puppeteers, narrators and other
categories. These performers work in Canada's
performing media in languages other than French.
15371 The principal function of ACTRA is
the negotiation of collective agreements which
establish the minimum terms and conditions for the
engagement of professional artists, both members and
non-members, by a wide variety of producers. The
agreements are negotiated with and cover the CBC, CTV,
Global, other broadcasters, independent film and
television producers, commercial producers, the NFB,
record producers and new media developers.
15372 The roots of ACTRA stretch back to
the early 1940s. In those days CBC was the most
significant producer of radio programs in the country,
and it is no surprise the earliest union was founded
there. It was singers who first joined together as the
Four Men of Studio Four and spearheaded a drive to
create the Radio Artists of Toronto Society -- RATS for
short.
15373 The issues were pretty simple, trying
to ensure a written contract was signed and a
reasonable remuneration paid in exchange for the
performance. Come to think of it, maybe not much has
changed. The first collective agreement was signed in
the 1940s. It was a pretty basic document.
15374 Soon associations formed at CBC
locations elsewhere in Canada -- Winnipeg, Montreal and
Vancouver -- and the first national organization was
formed in the 1950s. With the move of CBC into
television and the establishment of production
facilities across Canada, the national association
expanded into other areas, including Calgary, Edmonton,
Halifax and Ottawa, with Regina and St. John's
following later. ACTRA was created more or less in its
current form in 1963.
15375 While ACTRA's history is closely
linked with the CBC, we have long since grown beyond
this confine. Today the CBC directly accounts for only
a small proportion of the earnings in our jurisdiction,
roughly 3 per cent. Even when you include programs
produced primarily for the CBC by Canada's
independents, the CBC's importance to Canadian
performers is only a fraction of what it once was.
15376 Of course, that statistic tells only
a part of the story. The CBC remains a critical part
of the production infrastructure, particularly outside
the major producing centres, and earnings in certain
genre of programming remain important.
15377 The members also strongly support the
principle of public broadcasting. The CBC is a
cornerstone of Canada's broadcasting system, and as a
public broadcaster the CBC has a vital role to play in
nation-building.
15378 The Broadcasting Act provides a broad
mandate to the CBC. It must have a wide range of
programming that informs, enlightens and entertains.
Among other things the Act says the programming of the
CBC -- and here I quote:
"- should be predominantly and
distinctively Canada,
- reflect Canada and its regions
to national and regional
audiences, while serving the
special needs of those regions,
- actively contribute to the
flow and exchange of cultural
expression,
- contribute to a shared
consciousness and identity,
- reflect the multicultural and
multiracial nature of Canada,
- be made available throughout
Canada by the most appropriate
and efficient means and as
resources become available for
the purpose."
15379 And, of course, it must do all of
this in both official languages.
15380 In other words, by statute the CBC is
required to be all things to all Canadians. That is
not to mention the responsibility through RCI to be the
world's window to Canada. Yet, in a time of audience
fragmentation and technological change, it is required
to do all of this with allocations from government that
have fallen over the past decade.
15381 In the 1990s appropriations to the
CBC decreased by 23 per cent, while the cost of living,
and presumably CBC's own costs, increased by more than
16 per cent. The cuts have implemented by various
governments and represent a concerted effort to erode
the capacity of the CBC.
15382 ACTRA believes that Canada's federal
government should make a renewed commitment to the CBC
to increase its budget and provide security and
reasonable guarantee over a five-year term to permit
the Corporation to plan and manage properly.
15383 But we are also realistic. Not only
is this far outside the jurisdiction of the CRTC, it is
unlikely to happen in the short term. Yet the broad
mandate remains, and there must be, in our view, public
discussion of how to bridge the gap between the mandate
and the resources.
15384 In its brief, ACTRA has again raised
the issue of the costs of providing the CBC's
television signal to the far corners of the country.
Since resources are no longer available and
alternatives are emerging almost daily, surely this
would be an appropriate area for further investigation
and study, and we make that recommendation to you.
15385 ACTRA has raised a range of other
issues in its written submission and our principles are
clear. The CBC services must be complementary to each
other and to the commercial broadcasters;
non-commercial; offer a range of programming choices,
ranging from news, information and talk, to ballet,
opera and drama; be primarily Canadian, complemented by
a few quality alternatives from other countries not
available elsewhere; and be deeply rooted in a strong
regional presence in several genres of programming.
15386 We note in our brief that CBC Radio
has achieved these objections, and that is why, in our
view, it is both widely successful and strongly
supported.
15387 We would be pleased to discuss any of
our comments with you.
15388 But let me finish with one other
point, an area of ACTRA self-interest that perhaps
highlights how the CBC has sometimes been its own worst
enemy.
15389 In any relationship that stretches
over such a long time problems are bound to arise, and
that certainly has been the case between ACTRA and the
CBC, but one recent case is more troublesome than most.
15390 One of the most successful CBC
television series of all times was "The Beachcombers".
The CBC has distributed that series extensively around
the world and it is being rebroadcast within Canada,
yet in ACTRA's view the performers so fundamental to
the success have not been properly compensated. Now,
this is a matter that is currently awaiting final
resolution under the collective agreement's dispute
procedure, but during the process the CBC has battled
and obfuscated and refused to provide financial
information which it is contractually obligated to
reveal in any case.
15391 It has, in short, failed to
understand, in our view, that it is a public
corporation. It has shown little respect for the very
Canadian artists that it relies on in its programming.
I am reminded of the old adage: With friends like
this, who needs enemies.
15392 But ACTRA can see beyond the
immediate management difficulties and put the
discussion into the broader context. Accordingly, we
come before you today and urge that all of the CBC's
licences be renewed, subject only to the comments we
have recorded with the Commission.
15393 Thank you.
15394 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
15395 Commissioner Grauer. No? I think I
will go and take a rest this weekend. I'm a bit
confused, I'm sorry.
15396 MR. NEIL: Your notes are not quite
in order.
15397 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, they were.
It's me who is not in order. I'm sorry. I apologize.
15398 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: She is not
the Duracel bunny. She has run down over the week.
15399 Thank you very much for that. I have
read your written brief as well, which is very
comprehensive and raises a lot of issues, and obviously
we can't get into all of them today.
15400 I wanted to just touch on the
notion -- because neither one of us, I assume, are
engineers or auditor general's, but to touch on the
notion that you are kind of urging the CBC away from
conventional broadcasting, over-the-air broadcasting,
and towards using cable and satellite and whatnot, more
modern -- why would that be of interest to ACTRA? Is
it simply because if they save money they can hire more
actors?
15401 I just can't understand quite why
your brief goes down that trail. The other ones seem
to be logical extensions of your history and where you
are going, and I don't question anybody having views on
anything, but that struck me as just somewhat out of
context with the rest of your brief.
15402 MR. NEIL: It is a question of
limited resources, absolutely, and the most effective
use of those resources.
15403 It is our view that the central part
of the mandate of the CBC is to be a producer -- is to
produce, acquire and distribute programming. It is
about content, it is not about hardware. It is about a
range of content, in a range of different media.
15404 And to the extent that money is spent
on physically making that product available,
incrementally to Canadians who live in the far reaches
of the country, seems to us to be an area that is
worthy of further investigation and study and review,
because there may be tremendous savings to be achieved
in looking at alternatives to that traditional form of
distribution of the signal. So it would allow for the
production and acquisition of more content.
15405 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have to
tell you and I am sure you will agree with me that we
can spend our time more wisely this morning, but I have
to tell you that I have read studies by people who say
that it would cost more to go the other way, for
instance, CBC owns their infrastructure now and not
only would it cost more to go the other way at this
point -- and that may change later, but at this point,
it would be more costly. But there are a lot of people
because of the angle of satellite delivery and whatnot,
who might be actually cut off by such a move and --
15406 MR. NEIL: Let me just make a final
point. I have never seen those studies. It has been a
source of frustration for me over many years that, in
fact, accurate information about the real cost of the
distribution infrastructure are simply not available.
They are not available publicly. The Commission may
have some of these, but they are certainly, in my
experience, not available publicly.
15407 But I would question -- because
basically what we are saying is maybe in the short term
there will be a small proportion of Canadians who up to
this point have the signal available to them who would
no longer have the signal to them until alternative
forms of distribution emerged. But in our view, if the
saving were sufficient, that would be a legitimate cost
to bear. And those studies may be, assuming that the
CBC would have to continue to make its signal available
to the roughly 98 per cent of Canadians that currently
get it.
15408 We note in our brief that at the
present time, cable passes 91 per cent of Canadian
households. So you are immediately seeing only a 7 per
cent, if you were to introduce new regulations with
respect to cable distributors. You would be then -- we
would be only talking about 7 per cent of the
population and how we can make alternatives available
to those.
15409 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You would get
no argument from the cable companies if we were to pass
that sort of regulation, but we will leave it there for
now.
15410 I am interested, as well, on one hand
you are saying, let's cut costs where we can and let's
put the money into product. And on the other hand you
seem to take a bit of a leap of faith, if I may
characterize it and I am sure you will bring me up
shortly if I am wrong -- but you seem to take a bit of
a leap of faith in saying, "Well, though resources are
tight and though we have to look everywhere for money,
go ahead with your constellation theory, get into more
specialties -- even though we know that the specialties
they have now are not turning a profit -- go ahead and
get into the Internet, go ahead and get into Radio
Three".
15411 And I just wonder whether I can be
forgiven for asking you whether they might not be
stretching themselves a little thin if they go down all
those roads with the current fiscal problems they have?
15412 MR. NEIL: The basic position that we
take here is the following: On the one hand, in the
final analysis we believe that government -- the public
and through its government have a responsibility that
is not being properly fulfilled and the CBC
appropriations ought to be increased. We take that
view, absolutely, fundamentally, clearly.
15413 In the meantime, we say the CBC
should be doing all that they can to maximize their own
resources and that is why we say in the short term we
accept that the CBC will have advertising, the CBC will
have sports programming, all of those things. We
believe CBC ought to continue to have guaranteed access
to the CTF funds.
15414 So we say on that side, until we can
achieve that objective, the CBC ought to be able to do
whatever they can to maximize their resources.
15415 Then we get down to talking about
these kind of trade offs. If the CBC is going to be
investing in new services or if they are going to be
investing more in regional programming, what is the
trade off within the limited envelope that they have.
And that's where we say that we would like to see a
thorough examination of this question of the
distribution as being a potential answer for that.
15416 In the meantime, yes, we do support
the CBC's moves in all of these areas. Presumably the
CBC is able to, even within its current envelope, find
a way to make these things happen. And we hope that we
can work with them and that you will work with them in
bringing these things about and again look to a more
permanent solution on the distribution side.
15417 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just one last
question. I am delighted to see someone taking the
broader view because we do get our share of people who
are looking for a slice of the pie or a bigger slice of
the pie here, and that's legitimate.
15418 MR. NEIL: Canadian performers want
that, too.
15419 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is what
the expression is all about, I guess.
15420 But let me just take a narrow last
question. Why would you not be in favour of saying to
us, "Discourage the CBC, for example, for spending $20
million on the Internet. Put it instead into
production, leave the Internet to other people"?
15421 MR. NEIL: Very clearly because the
future, if you look to the future where we are going to
continue to see an explosion of the number of signals
available, we are going to see an explosion of
distribution through the Internet, in my view, once the
technology reaches a state where audio/visual signals
can be delivered to us quickly and in reasonable
quality, we will see more and more distribution in that
mechanism.
15422 Our view is Canadian material has to
be available in all of these different media.
Absolutely, we need to have a substantial supply of
Canadian material available for our own purposes. And
the CBC, the public broadcaster, has a role to play in
all of those areas. And so we would urge you very,
very strongly not to try to hinder their development in
any of these fields, because if we don't get into them
now it will be pretty tough ten years from now to play
catch-up.
15423 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you
very much.
15424 THE CHAIRPERSON: May I ask a
question?
15425 You are recommending a five-year
term. I was wondering if it is a five-year term
because you think that given all the rapid change, it
would be better to just set a scope of five years, or
are you aware that it could be a seven-year term?
15426 MR. NEIL: I don't know that we
recommended a five-year term, but I don't think we have
strong feelings about a five or seven-year term,
frankly.
15427 However, I would note that we do --
this is an opportunity, obviously at licence renewal
time for there to be public discussion and debate about
the CBC, about the public broadcaster and we don't have
that opportunity all the time. And in that sense, we
do welcome these kind of opportunities very much and if
that means a five-year term, then that's fine.
15428 On the other hand, we recognize that
licences are generally issued now for seven years and
would feel very comfortable in the CBC having a
seven-year licence renewal.
15429 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
15430 If we were to make the same
statistics for UDA then we have here for ACTRA, do you
think the 3 per cent would be a similar figure in the
French system?
15431 MR. NEIL: It is probably not quite
as low amongst our colleagues in UDA. There is still a
little bit more production by the CBC for Radio-Canada.
15432 What we find on the English side now
is that virtually all of the programs that cost
substantial amounts of money are produced
independently, including ones very closely identified
with the CBC like "Royal Canadian Air Farce" or "This
Hour Has 22 Minutes", all of the major dramas even
where CBC is heavily involved in the first window and
has many windows, all of those are produced
independently. So I would expect that the number for
our French colleagues would be higher than the 3 per
cent.
15433 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you wouldn't be
as concerned as the independent producers were this
morning?
15434 MR. NEIL: No.
15435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much
for your participation. Thank you.
15436 MR. NEIL: Thank you very much.
15437 MS BÊNARD: I would now invite Mr.
Peter Wintonick to come forward.
15438 THE CHAIRPERSON: Everybody is
reminding me that once you will be done with your
intervention, it is going to be Commissioner Grauer
doing your questioning.
15439 Welcome.
INTERVENTION
15440 MR. WINTONICK: Thank you.
15441 This is the first time I have ever
had experience with this.
15442 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will see, it is
almost delightful.
--- Laughter / Rires
15443 MR. WINTONICK: I know like Andy
Warhol had the idea that everybody had 15 minutes of
fame, but I guess in Canada it is only 10 minutes
because of the exchange rate or something. A discount.
You have to discount me. Actually, I am just in the
middle of a production about the history of Cinéma
Vérité. I am a documentary filmmaker and Cinéma Vérité
was kind of documentary movement that the Canadians
actually really started. It is not as old as the CBC,
it didn't start in 1936, but it is almost that way.
15444 So I spent all day yesterday studying
all of the Internet stuff that CBC had put out and the
CRTC had put out and wrote my oral presentation which
seems a contradiction in terms.
15445 It is sort of nice to be following
Michael MacMillan and Alliance Atlantis, because I
really started out in filmmaking with Robert Lantos and
about four other people down in Montreal when they were
called RSL, and failed to make them move down Highway
401.
15446 So I just had this vision that I
could have been sitting here with those guys and those
women, but I am glad I wasn't. I sort of took the vow
of poverty and became a documentary filmmaker. I don't
which one of those words you can put in quotes.
15447 THE CHAIRPERSON: The poverty.
15448 MR. WINTONICK: The poverty, for
sure.
15449 I don't really want to micro-manage
the CBC. I am really here to have written the six
pages, you can probably read it, but I will scan
through it because I know we don't have much time. But
I really would just like specifically, I guess, to
really talk about CBC Television and mainly Newsworld.
And I really want to talk from a kind of personal
perspective. And I want to really make it clear that I
am not speaking on behalf of the Canadian Independent
Film Caucus, which is a group of about 400, mostly
documentary filmmakers. A group that I helped start
about 15 years ago and I was the co-chair of that last
year. I am just really talking as myself, not as a
media critic or film professor or the other kinds of
things I have done to survive while I am making films.
But I am really speaking as a kind of independent
documentary film and TV director and producer or what
some would call a "cultural worker" or "media artist".
One who has been working professionally, mostly in
Montreal for the last 25 years building up a small
production house called "Necessary Illusions" and those
are the types of illusions that I think you have to
have if want to work in this business.
15450 So again, I just really want to speak
as plainly and simply as a regular citizen -- consumer,
we will say of the CBC and a kind of regular citizen in
this democratic and civil society.
15451 I am actually quite impressed by the
kind of work you are doing. I was looking in the other
room back there and there are all these black binders,
thousands of interventions. I didn't steal this one,
this is some of the stuff I printed off the Internet of
your proceedings the other day.
15452 With all these single page
interventions and comments and handwritten notes and
e-mails that people had sent, I guess you went across
Canada in March and really got a sense of the way
Canadians feel about the CBC and I would sort of echo
all of those comments, as well.
15453 I just scanned through them, I didn't
see really more than one kind of negative comment in
all the stuff that I looked at back there, so I would
just remind you guys about that, too.
15454 Now, I just wanted to be quite
serious and attend on my civic duties in regards to
your Commission, so I poured, as I say, through this --
your transcripts and web sites and printed out only a
fraction of what, I guess, is there. It makes for a
lot of reading, so I really appreciate what you have to
go through.
15455 I am going to skip through some of
this, you can read it for your entertainment.
15456 But in 1988, I wrote an article for
our then national film magazine called Cinema Canada in
which I called for a kind of Maple-leaf Manifesto. In
essence, it was a kind of cry to replace the kind of
americontinental dream of manifest destiny in our
cultural industry with one which was more indigenous
and local and well, you know, like, Canadian, eh.
15457 It is the kind of thing -- I think
the CBC is one of the only places, it seems these days
where that kind of Maple-leaf Manifesto can actually be
embodied, perhaps the National Film Board, as well.
15458 But it is my fear that the kind of
budget cuts and pressures that the government has been
putting on these institutions and kind of the pressure
from what I call "media privateers" and "corporate
pirateers" who really don't have a kind of sense of the
national or the cultural and who had perhaps refused
the CBC and other national institutions that which they
themselves live from. In other words, kind of public
subsidies which seem to be diverted from the public
institutions to the private ones.
15459 In fact, we are all subsidized by the
public, even small production houses like mine. These
forces seem to have effectively dismantled over the
last ten years the social safety net and they are
weakening Telefilm and the NFB and also the kind of
arts support structures south of the border, as well.
15460 So I am not really what you would
want to call an extreme nationalist by any definition.
In fact, I abhor the idea of nationalism, although I
did toy around with the idea of appearing here sort of
wrapped up in some kind of multi-coloured flag or in a
beaver suit or something, but I think that this
country, however you want to define it must share some
kind of common vision and wisdom, and not so much in
the sense of morality and familial values, we will say,
in that kind of neo-consensus, but in common culture,
one which is sort of paradoxically diverse and
tolerant.
15461 So I am really here briefly to
support with all my possible personal force, the
renewal of the CBC Newsworld, SRC, RDI and the Radio
licences, in fact, all the local licences as well in
the regions.
15462 And I will just respond here with a
few specifics and I don't know if you will have time to
ask me questions or if you want to. I will keep it
short anyway, because I will just really limit my
comments to things I really know about, which is
Newsworld and RDI and CBC and I will be blunt.
15463 Without public TV and radio, this
country is sunk. And I am sure you all know this in
your heart and soul. Without public discourse,
democracy is dead. Without the enlightened
presentation of news and views and current affairs,
which is really what Newsworld and RDI embody so well,
we might as well pack it in and go live in Kansas, and
that's not somewhere over the rainbow, it might be just
right around the cyber corner.
15464 The CBC is our only local defence
against what I call mono-media, whether that is
domestic or foreign grown, and you know what I am
talking about too, I guess transnational
corporatization of media. And what I call the
privatization of the public memory or the CNN-ization
of the world.
15465 So the only way I can see to preserve
the CBC is as the main highway in Canadian culture and
not as a picturesque, seldom frequented sideroad, which
is, I guess, a CRTC kind of poetic phrase out of one of
your documents. The only way to preserve this
indigenous culture, our music or even the French
language, the communication side of culture is to make
the CBC in a generic sense of the word, and
Radio-Canada, more viable.
15466 In fact, we should all work to
strengthen its budget and its innate right to
government support despite what some of the less
informed reformatists luddites might be saying, the CBC
is actually an enlightened cave within which we have to
sort of find our own collective identity.
15467 I just want to speak on two specific,
kind of, case studies which involve myself, actually,
and Newsworld.
15468 I have really had the most incredible
support from CBC Newsworld and especially Jerry
McIntosh and his team, who have allowed me, and I
really speak for a lot of others, actually, countless
dozens of young filmmakers. I wouldn't really count
myself as a young filmmaker, but -- I know if you look
there list of programming, you will see names of
infamous and famous and emergent filmmakers. They have
offered filmmakers, up and coming filmmakers a chance
to experiment and push back the boundaries of
information programming in order to offer Canadians new
sights into the public policy issues, but usually
within the kind of their ideas of journalistic balance.
15469 So I think -- they are kind of a lean
and mean kind of machine and more than any other, kind
of specific broadcaster, Newsworld has been the engine,
I think, which has given more impetus to the
preservation and extension of documentary form than any
other kind of broadcaster has.
15470 I can cite you two examples. I have
made a film for Newsworld called "Ho! Kanada" which
looked at the idea of Canadian identity from a very
kind of oblique and humorous perspective, essentially I
wanted to demystify the idea of other, it was a kind of
bilingual film, it was Japanese and English. And we
looked at the way the Japanese tourists were looking at
Canada, so it revealed a lot about the kind of common
ground and ambiguous thing we call Canadian identity.
15471 Then last year, Patricia Tassinari
and I made a documentary for Newsworld and for RDI and
SRC, it was one of these unique kind of partnering,
another bilingual film called "The Quebec Canada
Complex" which we sort of looked at what I call the
"neurotic notion of the nation", it was kind of comedic
documentary in which we posited that the two nations,
"Le Quebec" and "Le Canada", as I call it, were almost
like a married couple and in need of some kind of
marriage therapy. So in order to find what Freud calls
a talking cure, we actually found eight different kinds
of psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists
across the political spectrum and interviewed them and
got them to apply their kind of psychiatric theory to
the Quebec/Canada problem, if you want to call it, and
pathologize it.
15472 It was kind of humorous and one might
question why it was on a kind of network like -- and it
was kind of innovative -- a network like Newsworld and
RDI, which was almost -- it was kind of simulcast and
again, it was a bilingual film which is unusual and a
thing which should be encouraged.
15473 But in fact, last month, it won the
kind of top prize of the Canadian Association of
Journalists Awards which -- and it was sort of over a
lot of other kind of what I would call serious current
affairs documentaries.
15474 So on Newsworld and RDI, I have found
for me as a kind of old filmmaker with a kind of large
track record a way of perhaps escaping the bounds of
form and a kind of place where one can experiment, we
will say with new kinds of documentaries. So, I have
been, along with a lot of others have been pretty
fortunate to work with Jacinthe Brisebois and Francois
Ayotte at RDI and with McIntosh and his crew at
Newsworld.
15475 MS BÊNARD: Mr. Wintonick?
15476 MR. WINTONICK: Yes.
15477 MS BÊNARD: You have gone over your
10 minutes, so if you could resume.
15478 MR. WINTONICK: This is why I brought
my alarm clock.
--- Laughter / Rires
15479 MR. WINTONICK: Well, I have some
very specific support for RDI and Newsworld, in fact,
they are kind of -- their five major priority goals are
highly laudatory and I think must be financed. I
really support their desire to reconnect with the
regions and I really like this idea about the kind of
video/journalist, the digital VJ's that they are trying
to support.
15480 As well as these kinds of examples of
cooperation with RDI, they did a series last year with
a lot of young filmmakers, I think you had to be under
30 which put me out of the picture, called "Culture
Shock" and they want to renew that. So I think they
really should be supported in those kinds of areas.
They have to really be financed, essentially. And I
think the best way to do that is really to -- I notice
in their documentation that they really need to have an
increase in their base rate from, is it 55 cents per
month per subscriber and the wholesale rate to another
few cents.
15481 I will just finally put in my own two
cents worth of advice. It seems to me that it only
costs the average Canadian about three cents a day to
be exposed to meaningful and useful Canadian viewpoints
on the national and international events and issues
which are shaping our lives. This goes for both the
CBC and Newsworld. And Newsworld seems to do it better
than anybody else 24 hours a day.
15482 So I am not really sure of the math
here, but it seems to me that there are choices to be
made and there is a price to pay to keep the whole of
the CBC functioning at levels it needs to be
functioning at to provide the services that we
Canadians have come to expect and to respect and to
love and to ensure that the CBC has a future so my
daughter, Mira, can be exposed to these kind of whole
new world of constellations and spectrums of the future
of television.
15483 So I don't think it is too much to
ask for a few pennies to preserve the idea of this
nation and this civil society. I am willing to pay for
it and I bet the vast majority of Canadians are, too.
So as an article of faith, I am willing to put my own
money -- I think it is going to cost $20 per person to
keep the CBC alive and to do the projects it wants --
so I will put my $20 down and hope everybody else does.
15484 It's lunch money.
15485 COMMISSIONER GAUER: No, the
theatrics and the humour, believe me, are welcome at
the end of what has been a very long couple of weeks.
15486 I don't have any questions of
clarification, really. I want to assure you that all
of this will be on the public record, even the parts
you didn't get a chance to read.
15487 MR. WINTONICK: Yes, there were some
more specific recommendations. I do work in the
practical world, I am a filmmaker and I rushed down
here early this morning to be here because I really
think it is important really as a person to participate
in this process, which is kind of unique for me.
15488 COMMISSIONER GAUER: Well, it is
important to us, too, to hear from you, and as I said,
I don't have a question of clarification, I just -- one
small thing I wouldn't mind is hearing a little bit
from you about your experience in doing the Quebec
Canada --
15489 MR. WINTONICK: Complex, yes.
15490 COMMISSIONER GAUER: Yes, the
bilingual production and in your experience, was this
one of the first times that there had been that kind of
collaboration between RDI and Newsworld to do this type
of production?
15491 MR. WINTONICK: I believe so. They
have done it perhaps with another colleague in
Montreal, Ina Fishman, the film about the role of the
Jewish community in Montreal. I think that might have
been a co-production, I am not sure if it was with RDI
and Newsworld. I know at the National Film Board they
did a kind of big co-production with many different
filmmakers around the Referendum which eventually got
seen and Jacques Godbout, a very famous Quebec
filmmaker worked for both networks at the same time.
15492 COMMISSIONER GAUER: Yes. I am
thinking in particular we have had several
representations and discussions on just this area of
more cooperative cross-cultural programming, if you
would like between SRC, CBC Newsworld and RDI. I think
this is the first specific -- you are the first actual
filmmaker we have had that has done a project.
15493 MR. WINTONICK: Yes, I think it was
maybe a bit avant garde then, maybe working it is shock
troops for the possibilities of cooperation, but I
really had some great experiences working in the kind
of creative collaboration with the RDI people and with
McIntosh and crew. I'm not really concerned about it,
you know, keeping editorial control whenever I can and
there wasn't that kind of interference at all. I mean,
we were really tuned in to the objectives of the
journalist principles and everything.
15494 And it was a kind of -- it took a
while, I guess, about a year, essentially, to put the
financing together. This was a problem, actually with
Newsworld, they don't have a -- Rough Cuts, anyway,
they don't have access to the EIP part of the Canadian
Television Fund because of like the way, internally, at
CBC they work.
15495 And I think that is a recommendation
you people can make to the CBC is that they do open up
part of whatever envelope will exist in the future for
Newsworld and Rough Cuts which will enable more films
to be made. I know they have ambitions to make another
ten documentary -- commissioned at a kind of high
level, $60,000 on Newsworld and that is really
something that should be financed and encouraged, too.
15496 So there was a really good
collaboration there which might have been a precedent,
but I don't see why there aren't more bilingual
productions on the national network. I wouldn't go so
far as an earlier colleague to say that one should
merge SRC and CBC at all, at all. But perhaps when CBC
is given its more, we will say, places on the digital
spectrum, there will be possibilities, perhaps,
throughout one of those digital channels to have
bilingual tracks so you can be watching the same images
and tuning in either French or English or why not Hindu
and other languages, too. I mean, I think -- I mean, I
have been living in Quebec for 25 years and I really
love, I am from Canada, we will say, from Ottawa,
actually.
--- Laughter / Rires
15497 COMMISSIONER GAUER: It is still in
Canada.
15498 MR. WINTONICK: The last time I was
in Hull I think it was at a bar across the street when
I was a kid.
15499 It is really a positive thing and I
think there are some of those initiatives within the
Newsworld proposal that really specifically address
cooperation with RDI.
15500 COMMISSIONER GAUER: Well, thank you
very much and I thank you very much for taking the time
to come and speak to us today.
15501 MR. WINTONICK: Okay.
15502 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I would like to
share in the $20, so I have a question.
15503 Did you understand Mr. Legg's
suggestion as a merger in the sense of bilingual
programming and one service, or did you understand him
as suggesting that the managerial level be merged and
left separate so that there is more cross-pollination
between the two and if it is the latter, do you think
that that has any value?
15504 MR. WINTONICK: I am all for
efficiency and for me the kind of model in broadcasting
is Channel 4, which is a real lean shop, almost like,
we will say Newsworld is relative to the Canadian
spectrum. So I am a kind of anti-merger kind of,
de-centralist person, not in the libertarian sense, I
just really think things can be more effective on
smaller levels. There can be cross-pollination without
the need to merge bureaucracies.
15505 COMMISSIONER GAUER: In the same
sense as the one that you think is of value between RDI
and Newsworld could be valuable in the core network, as
well.
15506 MR. WINTONICK: I think --
15507 COMMISSIONER GAUER: That's the way I
understood that the suggestion was a perspective which
is less discreet would possibly be advantageous to all
Canadian viewers, even though the program offering
would be in the language of the majority of one or the
other of the official language majorities viewing the
specific reflection of it.
15508 MR. WINTONICK: Yes. I am really for
the exposure, I guess, of Canadians to the experience
of Quebec, because I feel I am a Quebecoise and there's
not enough of it. So anyway that that can happen, that
is one of the motivations from those last two films I
cited.
15509 There is not enough of it. So any
way that that can happen. That was one of the
motivations for those last two films I cited, really.
15510 I have been doing a lot of
international projects, issues of peace, and I made a
film with Norm Chomsky(ph) about international media,
but I have been starting to localize my kind of
interest on Canada and I really sort of would like to
see more co-operation, whether that's sort of top,
down, or from the bottom up.
15511 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes. Any
structural organization that would enhance that, I
understood Mr. Legg to say, would be positive.
15512 MR. WINTONICK: Yes.
15513 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: It doesn't mean
that you wouldn't have two distinct services at the end
of the day, but they may be different in their
distinctiveness as a result of the structural changes.
15514 MR. WINTONICK: I also saw in the
main CBC proposals there were also several initiatives
to connect the two halves of the brain, the country's
brain.
15515 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you.
15516 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much. But I will have to ask you to take your $20
because, as we have been saying all week, and even when
we were doing the regional consultation all across
Canada in March, we are not the ones who write the
cheque and neither can we take the money.
15517 MR. WINTONICK: Okay.
15518 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much, sir.
15519 Madam Bénard?
15520 MS BÉNARD: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15521 The next presentation will be by the
Canadian Association of Film Distributors and
Exporters/Association canadienne des distributeurs et
exportateurs de films.
15522 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, monsieur
Paradis.
INTERVENTION
15523 M. PARADIS: Bonjour, madame la
présidente. Je sais où envoyer mon 20,00 $.
15524 LA PRÉSIDENTE: J'aurais dû dire:
monsieur le président.
15525 M. PARADIS: Merci.
15526 Madame la présidente, mesdames et
messieurs les membres du Conseil.
15527 Je me présente. Je suis Richard
Paradis, Président de l'Association canadienne des
distributeurs et exportateurs de films.
15528 L'Association représente les intérêts
des plus importantes entreprises, sous contrôle
canadien, de distribution au Canada. Parmi celles-ci,
on retrouve: Alliance Atlantis Releasing, Behaviour
Distribution, Film Tonic, Forefront Releasing, France
Film, Les Films Lions Gate, Motion International, Odeon
Films et Red Sky International.
15529 En se présentant devant vous
aujourd'hui, l'Association vise un objectif fort
précis. Nous voulons assurer au cinéma canadien sa
juste part dans la programmation offerte au public
canadien par la société Radio-Canada. Nous sommes
d'avis que la télévision est un médium extraordinaire
pour diffuser des longs métrages canadiens ainsi que
pour éveiller l'intérêt des téléspectateurs pour de
tels films.
15530 Mais avant de rentrer dans le vif de
notre propos, permettez-nous de vous dire que nous ne
faisons pas partie de ceux qui doutent de l'utilité de
notre diffuseur public national. Nous sommes d'avis
que la télévision publique a et doit jouer un rôle de
premier plan dans la vie des téléspectateurs canadiens,
un rôle qui toutefois doit se différencier de celui des
télédiffuseurs privés. La SRC/CBC se doit d'offrir une
programmation de qualité qui est le reflet de nos
valeurs et de nos histoires.
15531 Comme vous le savez, l'ensemble des
intervenants du domaine du cinéma canadien ont
travaillé au cours de la dernière année à revoir, avec
le ministère du Patrimoine, notre politique nationale
dans le domaine du long métrage. Dans le rapport
qu'ils ont remis à la Ministre Sheila Copps en janvier,
créateurs, producteurs, distributeurs, propriétaires de
salles et le public canadien s'entendent pour dire que
les télédiffuseurs doivent jouer un rôle plus important
dans la production, la promotion et la diffusion de
notre cinéma national.
15532 CAFDE believes strongly that the
Commission must use the renewal of the CBC television
licences to formally recognize the important role of
Canadian feature films in the programming schedules of
both the French and English language public television
networks.
15533 It appears quite evident that
Canadians want broadcasters to play a more important
role in providing viewers with more opportunities to
see Canadian films.
15534 In a study undertaken in 1998 by the
research group Angus Reid for Heritage Canada, one of
the first studies ever done in this area, the authors
canvassed 1,500 Canadians across the country to survey
their views on Canadian movies: 69 per cent of
respondents strongly agreed that it is very important
that Canadian feature films be shown on Canadian
television. Approximately six out of 10 respondents
strongly agree that:
"people would watch Canadian
feature films if they were
promoted and advertised better."
15535 CAFDE also believes that the present
review of the CBC/SRC by the Commission should take
into account recent proposed government policy
initiatives in the area of feature films.
15536 When Heritage Canada launched its
Canadian Feature Film Policy Review, it was clearly
stated in the department's Discussion Paper:
"With respect to broadcasting,
many have suggested that Canada
should build on the success of
broadcasters such as the U.K.'s
Channel 4 or Canal + in France.
These broadcasters have
demonstrated a strong commitment
to their respective national
film industries by participating
actively in their financing,
promotion and broadcasting.
Another possibility is modifying
broadcast licences upon renewal
to encourage Canadian
broadcasters to dedicate more
financial resources and
broadcasting time to feature
films."
15537 Following the launch of the film
policy review, Canada's Heritage Minister called
together individuals from the feature film industry for
guidance in this area.
15538 The 13-member advisory committee,
representing a cross-section of the disciplines
involved in the production, distribution and
exhibition, made public its report to the Minister in
January. The committee recognized the critical role
broadcasters should play in promoting and broadcasting
Canadian films:
"We believe that the Canadian
broadcasting system must play an
even greater role in the
financing, promotion and airing
of independent Canadian feature
films. The federal government
and the CRTC must encourage
public and private broadcasters
to increase their financial
participation in feature film
production and exhibition - and
make it a condition of licence
renewals ...
... relevant public and private
broadcasters should be required
to devote a portion of their air
time to the broadcast of
Canadian features, scheduling of
these films should be during
peak viewing periods when the
greatest number of Canadians are
able to watch them ..."
15539 The advisory committee also had
specific recommendations regarding the CBC:
"The committee recognizes that
the CBC has a valuable role to
play in fostering domestic
audiences for Canadian feature
films. In its submission to
Canadian Heritage's policy
review, the CBC put forward a
feature film strategy modelled
on the experiences of the U.K.'s
Channel 4 [in the U.K.].
Instead of developing an
in-house film unit, we recommend
that the CBC be required to
dedicate at least $25 million of
its budget to the production of
feature films by the independent
production sector through
licence fees and equity
participation ...
In order to sustain this
commitment over time, we
recommend that the Canadian
Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
(CRTC) examine in detail the
CBC's future plans for feature
film support at its television
licence renewals next year. The
CRTC should ensure that the
commitments to feature film are
commensurate with its role in
the Canadian broadcasting
system. These promises should
be made conditions of licence."
15540 CAFDE was pleased to see the CBC's
renewed interest in Canada's feature film industry in
its submission to the film policy review and in its
return this year as the official broadcaster of the
annual Genie Awards, celebrating Canada's cinema.
15541 We believe the CBC has an important
role to play as broadcaster and promoter of Canadian
films, much like the BBC does in Britain, but it should
not get involved in other activities such as concept
development, production and distribution. The CBC, in
our view, should not try to do things that the private
independent sector is in a position of doing.
15542 CAFDE has, with great interest, taken
note of the recent announcement of the SRC's intention
to invest $20 million over the next five years -- why
they haven't said seven years, we wonder; maybe they
only want a five-year licence -- towards the production
and promotion of Canadian feature films. This
announcement was followed as recently as Monday of this
week by a commitment from English CBC of $30 million
over five years. This money is to be used:
"to support the independent
sector through development
arrangements, pre-buys, equity
investment, acquisitions, direct
and indirect promotion, and
sponsorships ..."
15543 While we are pleased with these
announcements by the CBC, we note that they come late
and fall short of the recommendation of the feature
film advisory committee of the CBC being obliged to
commit $25 million a year to supporting Canadian
theatrical feature films.
15544 CAFDE believes the Commission should
require the CBC to be quite clear on what efforts it is
prepared to allocate to improving its performance in
promoting and broadcasting Canadian feature films in
prime time. It is unfortunate that the CBC proposals
are being announced piecemeal during the process of
these CRTC renewal hearings.
15545 It would have been preferable that
they be part of an initial proposal to the Commission
and that all of us would have had more time to analyze
what seemed to be at the outset interesting proposals.
Notwithstanding this, we feel the Commission should
review with the CBC its proposals for the feature film
sector and ultimately turn such proposals into specific
conditions of licence.
15546 As many of you know, Canadian
independent feature film producers and distributors
have to deal on a daily basis with the overwhelming
domination of American product -- it doesn't just
happen in magazines -- on our theatre screens --
Canadian films still only have a 2 per cent share of
screen time -- and in the programming schedules of
Canadian conventional broadcasters. On French language
broadcasters such as TVA, 89 per cent of the
programming of films is American films.
15547 CAFDE believes that the CBC in its
role as a national public broadcaster should make air
time available to promote Canadian feature films when
they are in theatres. Such an initiative would
contribute to increasing awareness of Canadian films in
the minds of Canadians and would, in effect, ultimately
benefit the CBC if it buys the television rights to
broadcast a given film later on.
15548 In addition, the CBC should make
every effort to broadcast such films in prime time and
promote such screenings on air before the actual
broadcast. Once again, we are encouraged by the
announcement last Friday by the English Television
Network that it plans on having Canadian feature films
within its next season program schedule on Thursday and
Sunday evenings in prime time.
15549 While we are pleased with this
proposal, we would prefer to see such a commitment be
part of conditions of licence as opposed to issuing a
press release and then changing one's mind as we get
closer to a firm programming schedule. In that, I
would just note that the program grid that the CBC has
provided for all of you on the fall season for 1999,
there is no mention of Canadian films on Thursday
night.
15550 CAFDE agrees with the producer
associations who believe that there must be more on air
promotion and media campaigns around Canadian
audio-visual productions. In the area of feature
films, particularly in English Canada, there must be
new programming initiatives developed to promote not
only our filmmakers but also our creators and artists.
15551 Canadians watch "Entertainment
Tonight" religiously and only on occasion get to see
Canadian stars that have become successful in the
United States. Why has the CBC not yet found an
appropriate programming formula to nurture a Canadian
star system for both Canadian television programs and
feature films?
15552 Before we conclude, we would like to
add that what we are suggesting for the CBC applies
just as much to Canadian private television
broadcasters. Their record on supporting Canadian
feature films, with the exception of City TV, is even
more desolate than that of the CBC. But that is a
subject to be developed at other renewal of licences
and we will be there.
15553 CAFDE believes that the proliferation
of new Canadian and foreign specialty services and the
growth of private conventional television networks over
the last 20 years should serve as a guide to the
Commission in reviewing the role of our national public
broadcaster, and CAFDE proposes the Commission focus in
its deliberations on how the CBC can actively and
effectively support Canada's creators, producers and
distributors of Canadian feature films.
15554 Time is running short for our feature
film industry and the CBC renewal offers an opportunity
to engage the CBC in some new initiatives which will
support our industry.
15555 CAFDE believes that the present
review of the CBC offers a unique opportunity to
finally integrate the Canadian feature film industry as
a full-fledged partner in developing quality Canadian
content which can effectively contribute to adding
value to the program schedules of the CBC.
15556 We recommend the Commission use this
opportunity to finally recognize the importance
television can have in supporting our domestic film
industry, just as you have done in the past for drama
and children's programming. Canadian feature films
should be an integral part on an ongoing basis in the
planning, scheduling and promotion of both television
networks of the CBC.
15557 Nous vous remercions de votre
attention et sommes disposés à répondre à vos
questions.
15558 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup,
monsieur Paradis, de votre mémoire écrit et de votre
participation ce matin.
15559 Compte tenu que dans votre
intervention orale ce matin vous faites bien référence
au fait que vous avez bien suivi les audiences dans la
mesure où vous avez enregistré les nouveaux engagements
que Radio-Canada et CBC mettent sur la table, je
comprends bien que vous dites que ce n'est pas tout à
fait ce que le comité consultatif recommandait: loin
de là, au fond. C'est cinq fois moins.
15560 Quelle est votre position à ce
moment-ci? Je comprends bien que vous dites au Conseil
de s'assurer que ce soit des engagements fermes. Donc,
on pourrait imaginer des conditions de licence.
15561 Mais si vous teniez notre main au
moment où on va écrire la décision, quelle serait pour
vous quelque chose qui serait réaliste, qui
rencontrerait bien les objectifs que votre industrie
poursuit, ceux du comité consultatif, tout en tenant
compte de ce qu'on a entendu aussi pendant toute
l'audience, à savoir les moyens limités de Radio-Canada
et de CBC?
15562 M. PARADIS: Écoutez, je pense qu'on
est sensibilisé au fait que Radio-Canada a des
ressources limitées. Mais je pense qu'il faut aussi
entendre le message du gouvernement qui se préoccupe du
fait que la télévision peut-être n'a pas donné la place
qu'on devrait donner à notre cinéma pour pouvoir
appuyer son développement parce que si vous prenez un
film comme par exemple, "Liste noire", pour lequel il y
a eu 210 000 entrées au cinéma, qui a été un film assez
bien accueilli au Québec, quand Télé-Métropole l'a
montré en ondes, en heures de grande écoute, avec une
très bonne promotion pendant les deux semaines
auparavant, il y a eu au-dessus d'un million et demie
de personnes qui l'ont regardé, ce qui est un succès
dans le marché du Québec, un million et demie, et puis
encore autant au Canada anglais.
15563 Donc, je pense que ce qu'on trouve un
peu triste, surtout dans le domaine du cinéma,
Radio-Canada a l'air à toujours réagir à des situations
qui sont délicates pour eux. Par exemple, quand ils
ont décidé de ne pas diffuser les Genies, l'année
dernière, pour toutes sortes de raisons -- il n'y avait
pas assez de monde qui le regardait -- cela n'aidait
pas les revenus publicitaires. Bien là, toute
l'industrie a été prise de court et puis on n'était
même pas capable d'avoir la démonstration qu'il y avait
une certaine partie de notre cinéma qui avait du
succès.
15564 Ils sont revenus sur leur décision
cette année. Ils ont fait une diffusion. J'imagine
qu'ils vont faire une diffusion l'année prochaine, mais
on est préoccupé par le fait qu'ils décident toujours
des choses à la dernière minute. Là ils ont vu la
sortie du rapport du comité consultatif. Ça dit
25 millions par année, ce qui fait 125 millions sur
cinq ans. Eux, ils nous arrivent avec 50 millions sur
cinq ans.
15565 De façon réaliste, si on avait dans
une décision du CRTC: Merci beaucoup Radio-Canada,
vous avez parlé de 50 millions, on s'attend à ce que le
50 millions soit là. Je pense que notre industrie déjà
trouverait que ce serait un premier pas très positif
pour l'industrie, dans le contexte des ressources qui
sont disponibles pour Radio-Canada.
15566 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Dites-moi:
Voyez-vous une distinction, parce que vous parlez de la
question de la promotion aussi comme étant un outil
très important pour le développement et la santé de
votre industrie... Est-ce que vous voyez que la
question de la promotion est un problème tant du côté
SRC que CBC?
15567 M. PARADIS: Oui, puis je vous dirais
même du côté des radiodiffuseurs privés. Dans les
discussions reliées au comité consultatif, les
radiodiffuseurs ont déjà entrepris, du côté de
l'Association des radiodiffuseurs privés, de regarder
la possibilité d'avoir des pauses publicitaires à
l'intérieur de leur grille-horaire, surtout en
heures... presque dans des heures de grande écoute,
mais pas nécessairement là, pour faire la promotion de
films quand ils sont sur les écrans. Le problème c'est
que quand vous regardez la télévision, les seules
promotions que vous voyez sur les ondes, de films, sont
des films américains parce que ces films-là bénéficient
d'un budget absolument incroyable du marché
nord-américain pour faire la promotion de leurs films.
15568 Nous, on n'est vraiment pas en mesure
de faire ce genre de promotion-là avec les ressources
qu'on a et puis on pense qu'on devrait... une des
choses qu'on peut négocier avec les radiodiffuseurs
c'est qu'ils rendent disponibles du temps d'antenne
publicitaire. D'ailleurs, ils vont peut-être un jour
venir vous voir pour vous demander des crédits
additionnels de contenu canadien, s'ils le font. Mais
on pense qu'il faut trouver des mécanismes pour
favoriser la promotion en ondes télévision de nos films
parce qu'on a des films qui sont... il y a toute sorte
de commentaires sur les films canadiens. Mais il y a
des films qui sont très bons et on est très déçu quand
on regarde les chiffres au niveau du box office. Mais
il faut voir que c'est une industrie qui est absolument
enterrée par la promotion américaine.
15569 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous parlez de
promotion dans le sens, au fond, de message
publicitaire. Qu'en est-il des autres formes plus des
invités au sein de talk-shows, de "Info Culture", par
exemple à Radio-Canada? Est-ce que ce ne sont pas là
des façons de faire parler des films canadiens?
15570 M. PARADIS: Certainement. Puis du
côté du Canada anglais, on pense qu'ils n'ont pas
réussi encore à trouver la formule d'émissions qui
pourraient rendre cette chose-là. Il y a des choses
sur Newsworld. Une personnalité qui est souvent dans
les journaux, Pamela Wallin, souvent dans son émission
au réseau Newsworld, sur son émission, parlait souvent
à des comédiens canadiens qui performaient aux
États-Unis. C'est intéressant mais encore-là c'est
dans le créneau horaire où ça se situe. Puis encore
là, c'est une des émissions les plus regardées, de
toute façon, à Newsworld.
15571 Mais du côté du Canada français, on
n'est plus... Radio-Canada a plus de succès, mais comme
vous savez, on a déjà un star system au Québec et
Radio-Canada, des émissions comme "L'Écuyer" qui
réussit à faire la promotion des films quand ils sont
en salles. Télé-Métropole fait un excellent travail
dans ce domaine-là aussi. On va avoir "Elvis Gratton
II" qui va sortir au début juillet, je pense. Puis
déjà, à TVA, il y a une grosse promotion en ondes en
heures de grande écoute pour ce film-là.
15572 Alors, il y a des situations... mais
au Canada anglais, c'est comme si on était vraiment
dans le désert. Il n'y a absolument rien dans ce
genre-là.
15573 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Puis, ce que je
comprends c'est qu'il n'y a comme pas, outre la
question de la publicité comme telle... il n'y a comme
pas la coquille d'émissions pour permettre...
15574 Il n'y a pas le type "Info Culture"
du côté de CBC comme il y a à Radio-Canada, l'espèce
d'élément culturel à l'intérieur du "National" ou enfin
du bulletin "Le Soir"? Non?
15575 M. PARADIS: Moi, je dirais qu'il n'y
a rien qui se compare du côté du Canada anglais. Il
n'y a vraiment rien. Puis une des raisons pourquoi
Radio-Canada anglais dit souvent qu'ils n'ont jamais
réussi à trouver la formule c'est parce qu'ils disent:
On a de la difficulté à avoir le star system
canadien anglais parce que nos stars s'en vont aux
États-Unis.
15576 Mais je ne suis pas sûr. Avec les
moyens qu'ils ont, je penserais que la CBC pourrait...
éventuellement, il faut mettre des gens de création
ensemble, puis développer des projets, puis les
essayer. Mais moi, je ne peux pas dire que pendant les
cinq dernières années qu'ils ont fait de grands
efforts. Puis, il n'y a rien.
15577 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous êtes en
pourparlers avec eux? Il n'y a pas que le comité
aviseur. Vous avez été régulièrement en contact et en
dialogue et vous le demeurez?
15578 M. PARADIS: Oui, puis je pense que
ce que vous propose Radio-Canada dans ses différents
communiqués de presse cette semaine et la semaine
dernière c'est qu'ils mettent un certain montant pour
investir dans des films et ils mettent un certain
montant qu'ils appellent, eux autres, "promotion".
Nous, on pense que cela veut dire qu'ils vont mettre en
ondes de la promotion pendant les heures d'écoute pour
certains films. Mais c'est encore à définir.
15579 On trouve que c'est, comme on a dit
dans notre mémoire, un peu tard et puis un peu triste
parce que vous allez avoir à prendre des décisions.
Puis on se fait prendre avec ça à la dernière minute.
15580 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Mais comme vous le
savez, l'audience n'est pas terminée. Il y a une
période dans cette audience qui invite le détenteur de
licence à faire la réplique aux intervenants et puis à
nous aussi de poursuivre au moment de cette réplique,
avant notre temps d'analyse et de décision.
15581 Alors, merci d'avoir pris le temps de
venir plus fermement encore exprimer vos intentions.
Merci beaucoup, monsieur Paradis.
15582 M. PARADIS: Merci.
15583 MS BÉNARD: We will now have the
final presentation for today: the Coalition seeking
balance on CBC.
15584 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
Thank you for your patience. We are concluding our
week with you.
15585 MS LA PRAIRIE: I would just like to
say before we begin that you must be very tired and
very hungry.
15586 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, no. The
interest is really with the interventions, and the
dialogue we are here establishing is keeping us alert
and makes us forget that we are hungry.
15587 MS LA PRAIRIE: Well, we will try not
to put you to sleep or to bore you.
15588 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I am sure you
won't.
INTERVENTION
15589 MS LA PRAIRIE: Before we begin, I
would like to introduce ourselves. To my right is
Diane Watts; she is National President of Women for
Life, Faith and Family. To my left is Karen Murawsky;
she is National Director for Public Affairs of Campaign
Life International. I am a lesser light; I am only
Vice-President of the National Capital Region of Real
Women and I am starting.
15590 We have a challenge for the CRTC
which is supposed to see that the CBC lives up to its
mandate to provide accurate, balanced and fair news and
public affairs programming as well as a wide variety of
points of view on the issues of the day.
15591 At the Open Forum at Carleton
University last November, Alex Frame, Vice-President
for English Radio, made the comment that:
"There are those who complain
that we are too left-wing, but
others complain that we are too
right-wing, so we must be doing
something right!"
And he laughed.
15592 We have a challenge for him too and
for other CBC executives who are using the same tactics
to excuse their doing nothing to bring about more
balance. We urge you to do this by employing some
conservative producers and hosts.
15593 Political commentator Barbara Amiel
who once worked for the CBC, in her book "Confessions",
in the chapter entitled "The Media Gliblibs", wrote the
following:
"The entire CBC has not got one
single conservative producer on
its Public Affairs staff..."
15594 She added:
"This may be fair in a private
broadcaster but a bit thick in a
tax-supported one."
15595 There have been some improvements,
like the appointment of Red Murphy as host of
"Cross-Country Checkup". He is unfailingly courteous
to everyone who phones in and any calls the producer
might not agree with don't appear to have been screened
out, in contrast to programs in the past.
15596 We recall one in particular about the
benefits the feminists were supposed to have brought to
Canada. Not one caller who disagreed with feminism was
allowed on the air, although we heard of a number of
women across Canada who held different views and tried
to get on but were screened out.
15597 Callers on recent phone-ins about the
CBC itself had these complaints:
"CBC is for the elite, academia,
the arts community..."
"...it's not for all Canadians,
it's for the sacred cows:
radical feminists, homosexuals,
native Indians..."
"...too many like-minded
guests..."
"CBC is biased against social
conservatives, it doesn't have
people like Ted Byfield on."
"...it talks about Evangelical
views with disdain..."
15598 Another caller:
"I'm not an Evangelical, but
that's exactly what's wrong with
the CBC, labelling anyone who
disagrees with it as right-wing,
a fringe group, as if our views
are not important."
15599 Of course, the CBC does have its
ardent supporters, those belonging to the "politically
correct groups" and the "Friends of Public
Broadcasting" who fiercely defend the CBC, deploring
any cutbacks to its public funding because it reflects
their ideology and is a constant platform for their
views.
15600 Someone said of the CBC, that it is
known as the propaganda tool of the left of centre.
What is missing to make the CBC live up to its mandate?
15601 To quote Barbara Amiel again, in a
MacLean's article about the CBC, she wrote:
"So often it is not what is said
on air, but what isn't.
Distortion can begin most
effectively by excluding
subjects, quotes or commentators
from a schedule..."
15602 Re excluding commentators, one of
Peter Stockland's columns in the Ottawa Sun was
entitled, "The tale of the two Judys." It concerned
the retirements of Judy Rebick after three years as
President of the National Action Committee on the
Status of Women, and that of Judy Anderson after three
years as President of REAL Women of Canada.
15603 Judy Rebick was interviewed at length
on each of the CBC's flagship public affairs programs.
Judy Anderson's retirement was ignored. Indeed she had
tried, as President, to present views other than those
of the feminists on CBC, but always an excuse was found
to keep her off.
15604 In our own publication "Reality",
under the caption "REAL Women of Canada Policy
Supported by Majority of Canadian Women" appears the
following:
"Feminist editor, Sally
Armstrong of Homemakers magazine
must have had quite a shock from
the results of an extensive poll
of women it commissioned Decima
Research to carry out. The
cross-Canada poll was
commissioned to find out the
views of Canadian women on
family, feminism, careers and
the future...
The results fall completely
within the objects and goals of
REAL Women of Canada ... which
has always supported equality
for women and has promoted
traditional family values. The
results also show that even
after twenty years of relentless
feminist pressure, aided by a
sympathetic media, (especially
the CBC) and millions of
taxpayers' dollars handed out to
feminists ... Canadian women are
not impressed. They know who
they are and what they want and
it's not feminism."
15605 A recent survey in the U.S. shows the
same striking results that a majority of women there
also disagree with the feminists. Yet everything
concerning so-called women's issues is presented on CBC
from the feminist point of view. Moreover, CBC
consistently ignores the annual conventions of REAL
Women of Canada and the wall qualified speakers who
come to address us in wide range of subjects.
15606 John Crispo, former member of the
CBC's board of directors, in a MacLean's article
subtitled, "A vocal critic pleads for fairness at the
CBC", wrote the following:
"... what I expect of its Public
Affairs shows is a thorough
airing of every controversial
issue. This means having
equally articulate and bright
protagonists on the major sides
of such issues and letting them
go ahead at it, preferably live
and unedited. Then listeners
and viewers can judge for
themselves where they stand,
safe from any editing or
filtering, i.e. distorting or
twisting by CBC producers."
15607 We care really second that idea!
15608 There is no real debate on vital
issues on CBC, whose idea of a panel of differing views
was for years to have Liberal MP Eric Kierans, NDP
Stephen Lewis and PC Dalton Camp, well known to be a
red Tory. Is there any real difference between a red
Tory and Liberal? There was seldom, if ever, a
fundamental clash of ideas. What was needed on that
panel was a social conservative, but we were simply
treated to different shades of liberalism.
15609 Of course today, the Reform Party
being the official opposition, CBC cannot completely
ignore its members, but most commentators, reporters
and guests still seem to fit into the Liberal left
mould.
15610 Phone-in programs do enable listeners
to hear different points of view from across Canada.
Nevertheless, the bias remains on CBC news and public
affairs programs. Individuals, organizations or groups
who are not politically correct are targeted and
deliberate efforts made to discredit them in one-sided
reporting with words taken out of context, no chance of
rebuttal given or only tokenism allowed to give the
appearance of fairness.
15611 Therefore, our challenge to the CRTC
is this: Do what should have been done long ago and
insist the targeting of organizations in order to
discredit them cease and that real public debate take
place on CBC. If the CBC's license is to be renewed,
it must be closely monitored to ensure there is proper
balance on controversial issues. If that is
accomplished, the CBC will finally be worthy of the
public's trust.
15612 MS MURAWKSY: I'm Part II of this
presentation. I represent Campaign Life Coalition
which is a national pro-life organization which works
in the political arena to obtain protection for all
human life from conception to natural death.
15613 We believe that the news coverage
offered by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is
biased against pro-life people of Canada. We have
isolated just a very few recent examples of what we
consider to be this type of reporting and we ask you to
look at them with us and examine the role the CBC plays
in influencing Canadians with presentations which
incorrectly portray the pro-life message and unfairly
depict pro-life individuals. I will not read all the
examples I have before you but I would like to pick
some of them.
15614 October 24, 1998, after the shooting
death of Barnet Slepian, Campaign Life Coalition issued
a press released in which president James Hughes
stated:
"We condemn the shooting of the
Buffalo abortionist and all acts
of violence against those
involved in the abortion
industry."
15615 The CBC newscasts that day at
4:00 p.m. and 5:00 p.m. had a clip of Mr. Hughes as he
decried the violence and commented upon how we might
comprehend the anger of those who are injured by
abortion.
15616 In later broadcasts, at 6:00 p.m. and
7:00 p.m., his declaration against violence was omitted
and it was made to appear the Campaign Life Coalition
sympathized with the murderers. We had many calls from
our own members questioning that and asking why he did
so. Not only that, one well known pro-abortion
picketer screaming outside Campaign Life Coalition
offices held a Campaign Life Coalition sign. In the
clip it was left to look as if she were a pro-life
protestor.
15617 Sins of omission can have deadly
results: in this case, a twisted, inaccurate, damaging
report. I have a video with me, should any want to see
it, of this and other related news stories which will
be mentioned.
15618 January 19, 1999, a documentary was
aired in connection with the shooting of Barnet Slepian
again. It was on the "National Magazine" and was
entitled, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." The program was
composed of reactionary, biased coverage using films
clips crafted in such a way as to make peaceful
pro-life demonstrators in Canada appear to be violent,
cursing mobs.
15619 An attempt was made to connect
Canadian pro-life organizations to a radical American
group. The Canadian film clips, we believe, were out
of context and, in one case, showed a pro-abortion
"rent-a-mob" and gave the impression that these were
unruly pro-lifers. The sign in the crowd, "Keep
abortion legal" gave away their true origins. To quote
one TV watcher, Brigit Kane, of Sillery, Quebec:
"It is telling that the only
video clip that could be found
showing frenzied, hating,
screaming agitators (was one of)
pro-abortion demonstrators
(listen to the words)."
15620 It has been suspected that Will
Offley, the radical B.C. pro-abortion activist and
media-type was involved with this program and indeed on
January 15th, in a widely distributed e-mail, he
cackled at the "exposé" to be aired, which he said
would show:
"... the connections between
mainstream Canadian
anti-abortion groups and some of
the most dangerous of their
counterparts in the US."
15621 He revealed generally unknown details
of the program scheduled for January 19 -- four days
later -- on the CBC.
15622 This show did indeed attempt to
establish such links, although there was not one
instance of violence by Canadian pro-lifers mentioned
on the program. There as been no major act of violence
by pro-lifers in 30 years. There wasn't one they could
find.
15623 "Thou Shalt Not Kill", the title of
the program, we believe, is an insult to the
Corporation and an insult to CBC watchers. It is an
affront to all people who are inclined to believe what
they see on television and reveals discrimination
against pro-life people in Canada.
15624 February 3rd, CBC "News Magazine",
with Carol Off, interviewed Maria Cusillo, manager of a
Toronto abortion site, who the reporter said had been:
"...harassed for years by
elements in the anti-abortion
movement in Canada. She had
death threats."
15625 This claim was never substantiated
and none of the accused, who are the whole pro-life
population of Canada, were interviewed considering
these actions. If the CBC is looking for violence, we
ask them to look at the violence of an abortion.
15626 This particular news item stands as a
prime example of biased, one-sided work. Ms Off's
story followed on the heels of her early work, "Thou
Shalt Not Kill."
15627 May 6, 1999, on "As It Happens",
there was a long interview with Mary Lou Finlay with a
writer from "Esquire Magazine" concerning James Kopp,
wanted at that time for questioning in the murder of
Slepian. The reporter referred to pro-lifers as people
who:
"... think those in jail did the
right thing. Those in jail are
folklore heroes for killings or
damage to clinics."
15628 Did the reporter ever speak of those
in jail like Linda Gibbons, prisoner of conscience, who
has served most of the last five years for peacefully
praying at an abortion site? Not at all.
15629 May 14, 1999, was an important day
for pro-life people in Canada. I have here a media
search report from Bowdens Media Monitoring for the day
of May 14, 1999. Bowdens is a well-respected service
and does a thorough job in radio and TV monitoring.
15630 On May 14, called "Canada's Day of
Infamy", 2500 people, from every province in Canada,
joined the March for Life to Parliament Hill to demand
protection for all human life. They were met there by
clergymen, politicians, Muslim leaders, Jewish leaders,
evangelical leaders and many leaders of pro-life
organizations.
15631 They also had the most wonderful
visuals on the Hill. Over 400 handmade "Precious Life"
quilts were arrayed on eight-foot scaffolding and
totally surrounded the green lawn. It was very
visually spectacular and yet it behooves us to wonder
why there was a total of 95 seconds coverage of this
event by the CBC when another large private broadcaster
could give excellent coverage totally as high as five
and one-half minutes.
15632 This was a national event, speaking
to federal lawmakers, with a large national attendance,
in the National Capital of Canada and the national
broadcasting service couldn't find time to give a
decent report of something that was happening right
under its nose.
15633 We are not saying, only, that the CBC
lacks a balance in reporting on certain issues, we are
saying that when it concerns matters of abortion, the
killing of a child in the womb, the CBC has a strong
pro-abortion bias. To maintain that bias is morally
wrong, unfair and an example of the poorest journalism.
Is the CBC afraid of truth? We have to believe so.
15634 To retain its licence, the CBC should
correct the bias, present fair and honest and balanced
coverage relating to the issue of abortion.
15635 Thank you.
15636 MS WATTS: Thank you.
15637 I am Diana Watts, from Women for
Life, Faith and Family, with Part III of our
presentation.
15638 Canadians over-burdened with
excessive taxation are more keenly aware than ever of
the responsibilities of tax-funded broadcasting. The
CBC is no longer a luxury we can afford to indulge. It
is being called to fiscal and moral accountability as
many question whether it meets the needs of Canadians.
15639 Women for Life, Faith and Family is a
Catholic organization with representation across
Canada, founded to rectify misinformation,
disinformation, bias and hatred towards our Catholic
traditions. Over 12 million Catholics in Canada are
bound by their Baptism to adhere to Catholic Church
teaching.
15640 Although the CBC may not be the most
vulgar in its expression of anti-Catholic bigotry, its
programming is, nevertheless, interwoven with
intolerance of Catholic thought. The CBC capitalizes
on dissent in the Church by interviewing, ad nauseam, a
minority of reactionary dissidents and propagandists
whose animosity towards their church is exploited.
Rather than help them return to fidelity, the CBC
highlights their erroneous idealogies, while omitting
authentic information from Catholic sources. It
appears that the more intellectually challenging
Catholic teaching is not tolerated. This stifling of
more profound thought exposes the
doctrinally-challenged dissidents to ridicule and
cheapens our tax-supported broadcaster.
15641 The constant parade of disgruntled,
misinformed, neo-Marxist, ex-nuns, ex-priests and
ex-Catholics has lead to a deep-rooted loss of
credibility for the CBC. In fact, anti-Catholic rebels
have been so over-exposed that the exercise has turned
into a joke among educated Catholics.
15642 Rather than Canadians being informed
with the more elevated thought found in the Catholic
religion, we are consistently assaulted with the
antinomian, anti-intellectual, indifferentist,
sacrilegious, heretical, irreverent, superficial
dronings of contemporary lesser lights. Catholics
would welcome an improvement. It can be a window of
opportunity for renewed, more authentic programming.
Meanwhile, Canadians must continue to turn elsewhere
for unbiased information.
15643 Superficial coverage of scandals
within the Church deliberately suppresses Catholic
teaching on the sacrilegious and immoral character of
the sinful behaviour in question, the state of the soul
of the predators and Catholic moral teaching. This
promotes hatred towards the Church and towards
Catholics. It is reprehensible that by the omission of
religious content our publicly-funded CBC consistently
engages in this subtle form of hate-mongering.
15644 The Catholic Church, by its nature,
is family-oriented rather than sex-oriented. The
Church's moral teaching is part of this family-friendly
heritage. The Catholic has a duty to live his faith in
everyday life. But when a Catholic dares to use his
right to freedom of religion and religious expression
by publicly supporting the Church's moral teaching, he
gets no support from the CBC -- which he is forced to
support through the taxation of his income. In one
instance, a Canadian M.P. who stated the Church's moral
teaching was attacked with particular venom and hatred
on the CBC. To our knowledge, there has been no
apology or balancing of this injustice.
15645 My footnotes give examples of all
these statements.
15646 Catholic parents would welcome help
rather than obstructive anti-Catholic libertinism from
the CBC in their efforts to hand down the Catholic
culture and Catholic moral directives to the next
generation. The rights of Canadian parents are not
respected by our tax-funded CBC. Family-oriented and
God-oriented Canadians often see the CBC as a hindrance
rather than a help to their parenting. Stiff fines
threaten Canadians who utter a word of criticism of
sexual orientation. Equally stiff fines should apply
to anyone at the CBC, or quoted on the air, who has the
same attitude towards the dignity of family-oriented
and God-oriented Canadians.
15647 The Catholic character of Canadian
history is another area which has been distorted on the
CBC. This also contributes to anti-Catholic hatred.
An effort to elevate the mind rather than sow discord,
suspicion and hatred towards the religious orders which
founded schools, hospitals and helped all segments of
society in the early years of Canadian life would do
much to improve the CBC's reputation. Research free of
anti-Catholic bias and hatred is desperately needed for
documentaries.
15648 For the new millennium, we recommend
and end to anti-Catholic bias. Particularly offensive
is the regular ridiculing of the spiritual head on
earth of nearly half the population of Canada, the
Pope. We also ask for an end to the immature attitude
of giddiness and flippancy in the face of religious
issues. Narrow, superficial and irreverent coverage of
Catholic issues is deeply offensive to the Canadian
population. In fairness to all Canadian taxpayers,
because of entrenched, systemic, mindless anti-Catholic
bias and bigotry, one solution to the recent history of
intolerant broadcasting would be the privatization of
CBC. That way, Catholics wouldn't feel responsible for
funding this.
15649 Finally, we ask each and every one of
you: Why have you, as guardians of fair broadcasting,
allowed all of this bias to go on unchecked for so
long? And I have many examples, and many examples
could not be included here.
15650 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very
much.
15651 I would ask Vice-Chair Madam Wylie to
address you the questions.
15652 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Good afternoon,
mesdames. I am sure you are as hungry as we are. We
appreciate you patiently --
15653 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, we had a chance
to have a bite --
15654 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- waiting to
hear from us and us from you.
15655 There seems to be two trends in your
presentations. The first presentation seemed to be an
allegation of more an endemic problem of liberalism
being unbalanced vis-a-vis a more conservative view of
issues and, then, two presentations that focused on
very particular items where you would want to see more
balance, one being the abortion issue and the other the
religious issue, particularly the Catholic issue.
15656 Would that be correct?
15657 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, it's also -- I
mentioned that it's so pro-feminist. And yet, they are
the minority -- they claim to be the minority -- but
polls, from legitimate pollsters, show that that is
absolutely false and yet, CBC shuts off the majority of
Canadian women who are not feminists. They do not use
us. As I said, everything on so-called women's
issues -- some issues, there are men and children
involved. It's not just women. But it's always
women's groups. And the women's groups are the
feminists. They never consult many groups that aren't
feminists. That's what I mean.
15658 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Have you, as a
group, or groups, that sympathize with that view or
empathize with that view actually been refused access
to the CBC on particular issues?
15659 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, I mentioned
Judy Rebick, how they treated two presidents --
15660 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: No, I meant more
a desire to put a certain view forward that has been
refused access.
15661 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, I mentioned the
program before Rex Murphy's time, and we feel the
problem is that there are a lot of feminist producers.
They seem to be in control. Why is this happening? We
all pay our taxes. And according to the polls, the
views that we hold, family value views, it's the
majority. And yet, you only hear from the feminists.
You hear ad nauseam from the Status of Women. They not
elected and here they are getting all the -- most of
the millions of dollars over the years, and CBC gives
them a platform. Why is this? Why isn't it more
balanced? We don't mind hearing their views, but we
want to hear it balanced. It seems to me that's fair.
15662 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Is it your view
that the private sector does a better job of balancing?
I'm thinking, in particular, of -- and I may make a
mistake here, depending on -- I believe it's Linda
Frum, for example. She is Barbara Frum's
daughter-in-law, that's why -- I think she uses the
name Frum -- who has just published a book which is
more, I would believe, oriented towards the real
woman's view or the --
15663 MS La PRAIRIE: The conservative
view. The conservative, traditional view, let us say.
15664 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- and has just
published a book ,and I certainly saw her interview but
I can't recall if it was on the CBC or on CTV. But, as
an example. Is it your view that the private sector
does a better job of covering -- because this
particular woman's work, which is very recently, was
given extensive coverage.
15665 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, I recall a book
by Betty Steel [ph], a few years ago. She wrote "The
Feminist Takeover". She was never interviewed. Yet we
are constantly hearing interviews of books written by
feminists. And I'll tell you a station who has Dr.
Laura -- I don't know whether any of you have heard
her, but there is a traditional woman who promotes
traditional views and she has a tremendous -- 148
newspapers that she's got a column, and she's on many
stations, and she's going to be given a daily program.
It's because people are sick and tired of hearing this
left-leading, permissive society. They want to hear
something solid. And here she is, giving counsel with
people who have gone down all that road and got into
all kinds of trouble and she's trying to help them get
back. I would like to have somebody -- hear somebody
like that on the CBC.
15666 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Are you aware of
whether there is more -- less -- as what you perceive
to be an endemic lack of liberalism on the CTV? Is it
your view that the SRC is the same, that Société
Radio-Canada in Québec is the same? Or are you only
involved with --
15667 MS La PRAIRIE: Well, I do listen my
mother tongue. I'm fluently bilingual but my mother
tongue is English. So, when your mother tongue is one
or the other, you are more inclined to listen to that.
So, I would imagine it's about the same, but I cannot
say exactly for true.
15668 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You had a
comment?
15669 MS MURAWSKY: I would like to respond
to your question, you know, "Are the private
broadcasters preferable in this case?".
15670 I'm thinking more of coverage of
events which we have been involved in, the Campaign
Life Coalition. We are political organization and we
do political lobbying and try to effect political
change, so we don't put on that many educational events
or something like that. But we certainly know that in
coverage of things that happened, of crises in the
country, or anything like that, that the private
broadcasters, yes, they do do a fairer job.
15671 We are not asking that the issue be
buried or go away. In fact, we welcome debate, we
welcome discussion, and we welcome interviews and we
welcome presentations, but they have to be fair. And I
would say, consistently, that the ones in the CBC --
and I have been working with the Pro-life Organization
since 1974 -- I would say, consistently, they have not
been fair in the CBC, whereas they are better in some
of the private broadcasters. This was one event, in
May, that was a beautiful place for, particularly,
television to use what was going on and it was really
quite disparate in the CBC and I was deeply
disappointed because all the preliminary work had been
done, you know, they had received all their notices and
everything, and that was their option to choose to do
that, and I don't think that was fair coverage.
15672 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You know, of
course, that both the Broadcasting Act and the
Commission's policies require balance on that --
15673 MS La PRAIRIE: Yes. That's why we
are here. And to live up to its mandate --
15674 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- which would
include such issues as abortion and as fair religious
coverage, but that balance has to be achieved over a
period of time. We don't have --
15675 MS MURAWSKY: Twenty-five years is a
pretty fair period of time, I think.
15676 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- and I'm
wondering whether you have ever taken advantage of that
policy to complain about a particular --
15677 MS MURAWSKY: This is not the first
time I have been before the CRTC. I remember 20 years
ago I appeared before the CRTC on these --
15678 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: No, I meant more
during the life of the licence, when there is a
particular issue --
15679 MS MURAWSKY: Yes.
15680 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: -- over a period
of time.
15681 MS La PRAIRIE: Could I just say here
that two of us were involved with the Committee for
Fairness in Broadcast and we had monitored, over
several years, chapter and verse, program, the
producer, the program host, the title, the guest and
where the bias was. It was enough evidence to nail the
CBC to the wall with their bias -- just what you are
asking -- over several years, all the dates. We came
in front of the CRTC -- and I don't see -- I'm
exonerating all of you because I don't recognize any of
your faces. Would you believe it was totally ignored?
Totally ignored. They didn't even name us in their
report. They didn't even have one line: Some people
object to some of the things. That was the CRTC.
15682 Now, our only conclusion is that the
same people who were involved, the producers, the
hosts, where the bias -- they were appointing people to
the overseer who had the same ideology, so they didn't
want to do anything about it. But we are Canadians.
We all pay our taxpayers. Is it supposed to be a
democracy? And what is going on, really, is that
special interest groups are running our country and
they have got into key positions everywhere.
15683 I recently saw a wonderful analysis
of the 1991 census. Eighty-two per cent of the country
declared themselves christian. Now, we all know they
are not going to church. But they cared enough -- and
45.7 per cent were Catholics -- cared enough to put
that on the census. And yet, in this analysis -- and
less than one million said they had no religious
affiliation. She said, "Is it from that much smaller
number, a fraction of the total, that they have got
into all the key positions? And she said, "The laws
that are going on, they seem to have taken over our
legal system, our judicial system", and what we are
talking about here, our communication system, our
educational system.
15684 So what kind of democracy do we live
in that this is happening? And you, I beg of you, you
are people who can do something about it. We can't.
We have tried everything. And we didn't want to come
here. We said we didn't know if we would be in front
of hostile people who we could tell, by their faces, if
they, "Oh, who are these three?", you know.
15685 But many, many people feel like we
do. We haven't much voice. And we came because we
said, "If we don't make an effort, five more years of
this terrible bias". Why is the head of the Catholic
religion, the spiritual head on earth, as Diane
mentioned, of nearly half the population of Canada, of
nearly a billion people in the world, ridiculed on our
CBC. A man dressed up to look at him -- to look like
him, looks like him in his white robes, and what is
coming out of his mouth? One of them is in the end
notes that Diane has, making him out as if all he cares
about is money. Then they have an audience laughing at
this. How do you think the Catholics feel?
15686 It's getting worse, not getting
better.
15687 They are twisting history.
Revisionist history is going on. We have to listen.
We wish these producers were here and we deeply regret
they weren't here to hear us. They probably won't even
see this. But many of the producers right here
probably were guilty of revisionist history, putting on
all of these things that are very, very offensive.
From our consensus 82 per cent.
15688 MS WATTS: I would like to add that
objective coverage of issues is much more interesting
than one-sided coverage, and journalistic balance is
much more interesting to Canadians than the imbalance.
Many people react with irritation to constantly hearing
the same views over and over again.
15689 I have in my footnotes a list of
dissenters in the Catholic church who are forever being
interviewed, giving their views on the CBC without ever
giving a balanceing view which in my view, and in views
of most people, is much more interesting than the
slogineering that you hear from these people.
Ex-priest Gregory Baum, ex-nun Joanna Manning is
forever being interviewed, given a tremendous
opportunity to attack the church's personages, attack
the Pope, attack the church's teaching on abortion,
about women, promote priestesses in the church.
15690 Yet the other side to this discussion
is very interesting. There are a lot of interesting
points why the church follows her teaching, and these
are never exposed. People who read can expose
themselves to this material and it is very interesting.
The material is available on the Internet for people to
do research, but obviously the producers are not doing
research. It is just easier for them to get the same
group of people, ex-nun Mary Jo Leddy, ex-nun Mary
Daly, Joan Chichester, anti-Vatican Francis Kissling.
These people are very often interviewed.
15691 It is the same repetitive slogans
that are put on. It is boring to us who know more than
this. It is boring to informed Catholics who read
about what is going on in the Catholic church and who
discuss what is going on in the Catholic church. There
is plenty of material available, very readily available
to the producers. It would be much more interesting.
15692 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Well, we thank
you for your patience in waiting to speak to us and in
presenting your views. We have them in writing as well
and we assure you -- I don't know if you -- CBC are you
hearing you. This is on the CBC here, and it is also
on CPAC .
15693 We do hear many, of course,
revendications, in French, or allegations or
preoccupations by many groups who feel that there isn't
a sufficient balance or sufficient coverage of their
issues. Of course, they are not always the same issues
that you put forward, but there are many views that are
put forward and feel that they don't have the proper
balance.
15694 But we thank you very much for your
presentation.
15695 MS WATTS: I think it's important to
remember that Canadians turn off. It is very easy to
turn of the television, turn off the radio. That is
what happens when the material is irritating.
15696 MS LA PRAIRIE: Or biased. We know
many people who won't listen to the CBC. They are sick
and tired of the bias. It is a shame because there are
many wonderful things on CBC, and it is just a --
15697 So I repeat, we beg of you: You are
the only people who can do anything about it. The
producers should be brought in front of this and say,
"Explain this." That's what you can do. We can't. We
did our duty in coming here.
15698 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you certainly
did.
15699 Thank you very much for your
participation.
15700 MS LA PRAIRIE: Thank you for
listening to us.
15701 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
15702 That concludes the works of the day.
We will be starting again Monday morning, continuing
with the intervenors at nine o'clock.
15703 We have to be careful, apparently
there is going to be work on the roads here, so we
might as well plan to leave earlier if we want to start
at 9:00.
--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1340, to resume
on Monday, June 7, 1999 at 0900 / L'audience se
termine à 1340, pour reprendre le lundi 7 juin 1999
à 0900
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