ARCHIVED - Transcript, Virtual Hearing January 14, 2021

Attendees and Location

National Capital Region, in virtual mode

Attendees:

• Chairperson: Ian Scott
  
• Vice-Chairperson, Broadcasting: Caroline J. Simard
  
• Commissioner, Québec: Alicia Barin
  
• Commissioner, Ontario: Monique Lafontaine
  
• Commissioner, British Columbia and Yukon: Claire Anderson
  
• Legal Advisors: Jean-Sébastien Gagnon, James Wilson
  
• Secretary: Jade Roy
  
• Hearing Manager: Céline Legault, Manon Auger
  

Table of Contents

PHASE I – Presentation by the Licensee

3280 - Presentation by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation / La Société Radio-Canada (the Corporation) to renew the broadcasting licences for its various English and French-language audio and audio-visual programming services

Undertakings

3404 - Undertaking

3769 - Undertaking

3773 - Undertaking

4051 - Undertaking

4480 - Undertaking

Transcript

Gatineau, Quebec

--- Upon commencing on Thursday, January 14th, 2021 at 9:00 a.m./ L’audience débute le jeudi 14 janvier 2021 à 9h00

3269 Mme ROY: Bon matin, Monsieur le Président. Nous pouvons débuter.

3270 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup.

3271 Bon matin. Good morning, everyone.

3272 Thank you, Madam Secretary.

3273 We’ll return to Commissioner Lafontaine. I believe she still has some more questions, just finishing up the area we were discussing at the end of the day yesterday.

3274 Madame Lafontaine.

3275 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

3276 Yes, we were discussing children’s programming and the CBC/Radio-Canada’s proposal, the cross-platform proposal, for children and youth programming.

3277 And I’d like us to continue our discussion this morning about -- in terms of the cross-platform proposal for CBC Television; and, in fact, you can also respond to this question for the French language conventional television service as well. But why your proposal on original is the right number, in terms of the cross-platform original number of hours.

3278 And I ask this question further to ACTRA’s intervention in which they had suggested that on CBC Television the number should be, of original hours -- original annual hours should be 64 hours a year, and of that there would be 12 flex hours, and you have proposed 52 and that there would be 12 of that. And so there’s a difference of 12 annual hours here, which might not sound like a lot but when it’s tabulated over the licence term it does amount to a lot.

3279 So I guess the question is; why is your proposal, why are the numbers that you’ve proposed for original programming on both platforms the right numbers, and why shouldn’t it be higher given that you do exceed the numbers regularly?

3280 MS. TAIT: Good morning, Commissioner.

3281 And I’m sure we’ll just probably go straight to Sally on that one, Barb? Indicate yes.

3282 I just want to -- I do want to just put some context on this discussion around kids’ programming because we didn’t really get a chance to talk about that; again, the 40,000-foot view. Which is that, as you well know, most public broadcasters around the world have dedicated kids’ channels. And because of the nature of our own industry, when specialty channels were awarded, oh, it’s got to be 20 years ago -- Barb, you can tell me -- CBC/Radio-Canada was not awarded kids’ channels. Those went to the privates, and we have a very, very extensive and well-served kids’ -- Canadian kids’ arena, Canadian content requirements aside; I won’t get into that, that’s not our business.

3283 But just to say that the commitment that we have to kids’ programming is firm and it is -- it runs very deep but we don’t, literally, have the room on a regular linear schedule to accommodate what we might have if we had a dedicated channel.

3284 So with that, I’ll go to Sally to explain why we feel the number that we’ve proposed is the correct one.

3285 MS. CATTO: Thanks, Catherine.

3286 I think that, you know, as we’ve said, and I’ll say again, flexibility is key for us. You know, when it comes to our linear platforms, as Catherine has already said, there is limited room on the schedule, and we have so many genres of content and very limited amount of time.

3287 So we look at our strategy now and our preschool mornings, and they work well for us. And as we’ve said, the research supports the fact that preschoolers are still watching on linear with their parents. But to add, you know, 12 hours to the schedule, you know, thinking of the benefit of that. What is the benefit of that if we don’t feel we’re going to get the viewers? And I gave an example yesterday of when we get into school age and we get into youth, it’s just digital is a much stronger platform for us.

3288 I’d also like to add there’s a cost issue there. You know, there’s a limited amount of funding for production for all of our genres, so we take that into consideration when we look at the amount of hours that we believe we can sustain year to year.

3289 M. BISSONNETTE: Dany, est-ce que tu peux compléter sur notre proposition du côté de Radio-Canada?

3290 MS. TAIT: You’re on mute, Dany.

3291 Mme MELOUL: Merci, Catherine. Je suis désolée.

3292 Bonjour tout le monde.

3293 Alors, du côté de Radio-Canada, on propose globalement d’augmenter, d’aller à 110 heures de productions originales avec une flexibilité d’avoir un certain nombre d’heures jusqu’à concurrence de 30 heures qui seraient sur une autre plateforme.

3294 À la télévision, ça se passe encore plutôt bien. Nous avons de la programmation jeunesse tous les matins, y compris le samedi et le dimanche, et notre cote d’écoute pour tous les âges demeure encore correcte, mais on sait, tout comme nos collègues de langue anglaise, que les plus âgés, les adolescents, sont assurément sur les deux plateformes; ils n’ont pas complètement quitté la télévision, mais ils sont aussi beaucoup sur la plateforme TOU.TV, et donc, c'est pour ça que nous voulons avoir des séries consacrées sur la plateforme pour eux.

3295 L’important dans tout ça, c’est avant tout qu’on souhaite les garder dans l’écosystème radio-canadien parce que, au Québec particulièrement, dans le marché de langue française, nous avons un star-système très, très important, et il faut que ces jeunes-là adhèrent à ce star-système, même depuis un jeune âge, pour continuer à aimer ces productions plus tard dans la vie, et c’est pour cela qu’on veut continuer à être à la télévision, mais on doit aussi être sur la plateforme pour pouvoir combler le tout.

3296 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Merci.

3297 Hier, pendant notre discussion, Madame Catto avait précisé qu’il y aurait possiblement certaines émissions originales pour enfants qui pourraient être créées et diffusées sur la plateforme numérique, qui ne seraient pas disponibles sur la plateforme traditionnelle, la télévision traditionnelle.

3298 J’aimerais savoir si vous pouviez préciser, du côté francophone, si ça va être le cas aussi, d’une part, et d’autre part, j’aimerais savoir si vous avez une idée du nombre d’émissions que vous prévoyez ne seraient pas disponibles sur les plateformes traditionnelles pendant la prochaine période de licence. Et je pose cette question encore une fois pour les familles, pour les enfants qui ne vont pas avoir accès à cette nouvelle programmation pour les raisons de manque d’accès au service à large bande, manque de ressources financières dans les familles, alors, je pense que ça serait important pour eux que vous nous expliquiez un peu plus ce que vous prévoyez va être sur les… dans votre offre.

3299 Merci.

3300 M. BISSONNETTE: Merci, Madame la conseillère.

3301 Présentement, le seul contenu qu’on retrouve qui n’est pas à l’antenne ce sont des web séries, c’est-à-dire des formats courts qu’on peut retrouver… comme je pense notamment à l’Âge adulte, qui a reçu plusieurs prix dans sa catégorie un peu partout.

3302 Mais je vais inviter Mme Meloul à venir préciser notre vision pour le futur.

3303 Mme MELOUL: C’est tout à fait ça. C’est certain que le futur, c’est le futur. Je peux vous dire ce qu’on fait présentement c’est que 100 pour-cent de toutes nos émissions-jeunesse sont sur les deux plateformes.

3304 Donc, oui, on a des rendez-vous à la télévision, mais ces jeunes-là peuvent… les jeunes de tout âges peuvent aller aussi sur la plateforme et retrouver le contenu.

3305 À ce stade-ci, les exclusivités qu’on a eues, comme Michel vient de dire, c’est des web séries et ça, c’est seulement pour l’âge des 13 à 17 ans. Donc, c’est vraiment les adolescents qui ont quelques exclusivités. On parle de moins de 10 heures de contenu au total qui se trouverait en exclusivité sur la plateforme.

3306 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Et ça c’est pendant cette période de licence, vous dites 10 heures par année pour les ados qui n’est pas disponible sur la plateforme traditionnelle, sur ICI Télé.

3307 Est-ce que c’est ce que vous prévoyez aussi pour la prochaine période de licence, c’est-à-dire avec les 110 heures que vous prévoyez pour les émissions originales? Est-ce que dans ces 110 vous prévoyez qu’il y aurait à peu près 10 heures qui n’iraient pas sur la plateforme traditionnelle, c’est ça?

3308 Mme MELOUL: J’aimerais juste préciser tout d’abord que ça n’a pas été par année. C’est vraiment la dernière année qu’on a eu ce 10 heures là, donc, d’une part. Alors c’est pas quelque chose qui arrive à chaque année, parce que tout dépend de ce qu’on reçoit. Est-ce que c’est convenable pour une plateforme ou une autre?

3309 Mais ce qu’on prévoit c’est de garder… de rester dans ces zones-là. C’est-à-dire que la très, très grande majorité de nos contenus-jeunesse, on les veut d’abord et avant out à la télévision. D’une part, comme vous disez très bien, c’est parce que c’est là où se retrouvent ces jeunes-là, surtout des jeunes qui sont démunis, qui n’ont pas accès à l’internet, mais d’autre part aussi parce que la découvrabilité demeure encore le plus grand… le plus grand lien de découvrabilité est à la télévision. Alors même s’ils ont retrouvé une petite heure à la télévision, ils iront par la suite voir la suite sur la plateforme Tout TV et c’est très important pour nous de garder cette découvrabilité aussi.

3310 M. BISSONNETTE: Et la condition de licence qu’on propose, Madame la conseillère, c’est d’augmenter le volume de production à 110 heures versus 100 heures mais avec une obligation de 80 heures à la télévision et de 30 heures sur les nouvelles plateformes.

3311 Ça veut pas dire qu’on va nécessairement mettre 30 heures sur les nouvelles plateformes, mais c’est la flexibilité qu’on souhaite avoir au cours des cinq prochaines années, quand on va suivre l’évolution de l’écoute chez les jeunes… pour les jeunes auditoires.

3312 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Merci, Monsieur Bissonnette.

3313 Ce que j’essaie de comprendre c’est dans les 30 heures que vous proposez possiblement diffuser et présenter sur les… sur ICI.TV, dans ces 30 heures là, combien ne seront pas diffusées sur la plateforme originale de ICI Télé.

3314 Et je sais que c’est sans doute difficile de dire aujourd’hui ce que vous prévoyez dans quatre ans ce qui va être sur les deux plateformes, mais je vous pose cette question, comme je vous dis, parce qu’on essaie d’avoir une bonne compréhension de ce que vous proposez et l’impact que ça va avoir sur les citoyens, les citoyennes au Canada, au Québec, pour le visionnement de programmation pour les enfants et, comme vous dites vous-mêmes, c’est de la programmation qui est tellement importante dans notre système dans le mandat de Radio-Canada. Alors on essaye juste de vraiment comprendre qui est-ce qui va avoir accès à quoi dans votre…

3315 M. BISSONNETTE: Je vais essayer de ramasser ma présentation pour que vous comprenez bien, parce que votre question est tout à fait pertinente.

3316 Donc, comme la licence est pour cinq ans, on essaye de se projeter dans le temps sur qu’est-ce qui pourrait évoluer et pense sincèrement que le problème d’accès à la haute vitesse dans plusieurs régions du pays devrait être quelque chose qui est beaucoup moins important dans le futur que ce qu’on a présentement et on en est tout à fait conscient.

3317 Donc, notre condition actuelle c’est de produire 100 heures et les 100 heures doivent être diffusées sur ICI Télé.

3318 Notre demande ou notre engagement c’est d’augmenter à 110 heures mais avec une condition qui irait à 80 heures maximum sur… minimum sur TOUT Télé… sur ICI Télé et 30 heures qui pourraient être exclusivement sur le numérique. Est-ce que ce sera 30 heures? Est-ce que ce sera 20 heures? Est-ce que ce sera 10 heures? On va suivre l’évolution des habitudes d’écoute des jeunes.

3319 Ce qu’on peut vous dire c’est quand on arrive avec une clientèle plus jeune, leur réflexe c’est d’aller écouter présentement sur leur tablette leurs émissions parce que c’est comme ça qu’ils consomment tous les autres produits jeunesse. Donc c’est vraiment de flexibilité, mais ce qu’on vous dit c’est qu’au maximum, il n’y aurait que 30 heures qui seraient uniquement sur la plateforme, sur les 110 qu’on va produire.

3320 Est-ce que je suis clair?

3321 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Alors… bien, vous dites 30 heures sur plateforme numérique, mais vous avez aussi dit que dans les 110, il va y avoir 100 sur la plateforme traditionnelle?

3322 M. BISSONNETTE: Non, on avait…

3323 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Vous avez dit ça au début.

3324 M. BISSONNETTE: La condition actuelle c’est 100 heures de production et les 100 doivent être sur la télévision traditionnelle.

3325 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Oui, o.k.

3326 M. BISSONNETTE: On s’engage ce 110 heures de production avec un minimum de 80 qui serait sur la télévision traditionnelle.

3327 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: D’accord.

3328 Et donc 30 heures pourraient exclusivement être distribuées sur la plateforme numérique, c’est ça?

3329 M. BISSONNETTE: On pense au terme de la licence…

3330 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Oui.

3331 M. BISSONNETTE: …selon les habitudes d’écoute, selon le déploiement…

3332 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Oui.

3333 M. BISSONNETTE: …de la haute vitesse, selon plein d’hypothèses, oui.

3334 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: O.k. Parfait. Merci. J’apprécie la précision.

3335 Alors je ne sais pas si le côté anglophone, vous voulez préciser aussi?

3336 MS. CATTO: Thank you, Commissioner. While I can't give you specific numbers today, we are -- obviously, every year varies, we're planning for the future as you -- it will depend on what is in development, what is in production. I can say our commitment to linear remains strong, and our desire to grow on digital is also strong.

3337 Recognizing that we need to continue to support audiences on linear is very important to us. Like my colleague, Michel, said, I believe the numbers will vary depending on what our research is telling us, what our audience trends are, is high speed available to our audiences across the country. All of that will be taken into account.

3338 But I do not -- I cannot today tell you exactly the numbers. I can tell you that they have been primarily on Gem, to date, for youth 13 to 17. So our preschool content tends to mirror, although there is additional content on Gem, but it's really our youth programming that has been on Gem, particularly our digital original short form series which are targeted to that audience.

3339 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Okay, thank you. So -- thank you, Ms. Catto. So in terms of your -- the 80 original ---

3340 MS. CATTO: M'hm.

3341 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: --- I believe that 52 -- the condition of licence, 52 of those 80 will be on the traditional platform; and so therefore, potentially, just to confirm as Mr. Bissonnette had just stated, there could potentially then be 28 hours of original children's programming that would be broadcast on the digital platform that may not, not necessarily, but there is a potential that that programming would not be broadcast on the main network.

3342 MS. CATTO: Yes.

3343 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Is that correct?

3344 MS. CATTO: That is correct ---

3345 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Okay.

3346 MS. CATTO: --- over the next five years. Again, we don't anticipate that to be immediate, but that's the request we have made, so yes.

3347 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Right. Thank you. Yes, and as I say, we just want to understand what ---

3348 MS. CATTO: Sure.

3349 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: --- was in the proposed regulatory commitment, how it could potentially work. Not necessarily ---

3350 MS. CATTO: I understand.

3351 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: --- but what are the -- great. Thank you.

3352 MS. CATTO: Thank you.

3353 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Okay.

3354 MS. TAIT: Commissioner, may I just put a footnote in here? And I'm sure Claude has probably done this already, filed audience -- the MTM report that we did on kids' viewing habits. I think if you haven't seen it, it would certainly help the Commission understand the -- this particular segment of the population where in some cases we're seeing under 10 percent usage of television, of traditional linear television among kids of certain age groups.

3355 So I just -- I am not sure if we filed that with you, but it certainly would -- we did a lot of research in this area, and it's something that would shed some light in your consideration of our proposal.

3356 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you, Ms. Tait. I do know that there was -- there were some numbers, some data that was filed, but as you were speaking I believe saw Mr. Galipeau's head say no, that the research that -- to which you are -- were referring was not filed. So I don't know if this is something that you would like to file.

3357 MR. GALIPEAU: Well, yeah. Thank you, Commissioner. Subsequent to our filing, we launched a new area of investigation in our MTM studies, called MTM Junior, and we have data on two to 17. We could file those. You will see that children two to 17, anglophones and francophones, are effectively dual users of linear television and digital. More television as they are younger, and more digital as they grow older.

3358 But the key there is that they are -- they do both, and the most important thing, I think, to see, speaks to the point about being able to reach theses young Canadians and -- without content, and keep them within the Canadian system -- is that the data is very strong on monthly and daily usage platforms, like YouTube, amongst two to 17. So to be relevant we need to certainly be in digital, and as they age we need to be in digital more.

3359 MS. TAIT: I’d like to invite Tina Tatto to make a comment, please.

3360 MS. TATTO: Yes. Just a point of clarification. Our proposal is for 80 hours per year of original children’s and news programming total, across out platforms, with a minimum of 40 hours on CBC Television. So currently it’s 52, and we’re going down to a minimum of 40.

3361 Just a point of clarification on that. We’ve been talking about 52 and bouncing that around. It’s 40.

3362 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Well, thank you, Ms. Tatto. Then for the record, there is a potential of 40 hours of children’s programming -- children’s and youth programming on the English language network, or on the English language side, that could potentially not find itself on CBC Television; is that correct?

3363 So if it’s 80 total, 80 flex, than you’ve got 80 left that would be on the main network; is that correct?

3364 MS. TATTO: But would be on the main network, would be 40 hours.

3365 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Right.

3366 MS. TATTO: But this is just, you know, something that we’re planning for -- we’re looking at now, and this will evolve over time. Right now, we’re not anywhere near there.

3367 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Sure.

3368 MS. TATTO: But it’s just -- it’s looking into the future.

3369 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Right, and as I say, it’s just to understand what -- like, how this thing, how this proposal could work. I’m not saying this is, sort of, that’s how it would, but just to understand, you know -- again, as I say, its impact. What is the potential impact?

3370 And so, well, just referring to this study, or coming back to this study, it sounds like this would be new evidence, and so I turn to the Chair and legal counsel as to -- with regards to this point. And perhaps we can pin it, or if you would like to speak to it, Mr. Chair?

3371 MS. TAIT: Not to interrupt, but I do believe the CRTC is a subscriber to the MTM studies. So you already hold that study very much in your hands. But we are happy to circulate it again, if you haven’t had a chance to look at it.

3372 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam Tait. We may well have access to it, but if it’s to become part of the public record then it would have to be included. We’ll take it under advisement and the Commission -- the Panel can make a determination later. But we’d welcome you filing it and then we’ll deal with it along with other matters later in the proceeding.

3373 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

3374 Just a couple of other quick points on this -- this issue that we’re talking about. Am I to understand that what you’re foreseeing right now with regard to the programming that wouldn’t necessarily appear on both platforms, it would be -- it would serve -- it would more likely serve an audience that doesn’t find itself on your main network?

3375 It would be more for those -- the audiences -- it sounds like it’s the older kids that you’re referring to, potentially. I mean, not necessarily, but potentially that you’re -- it would be -- so the content that wouldn’t find itself on both platforms, would find itself on digital, would be there servicing those audiences that are there.

3376 MS. CATTO: That is ---

3377 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Is that the idea?

3378 MS. CATTO: That is the idea. Thank you.

3379 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you. Okay, great.

3380 MS. TAIT: And Commissioner, just to be clear, there is a difference. This is one of the examples where we have a very different undertaking -- I shouldn’t use that word -- a very different approach offering -- offering to kids in the French market versus kids in the English market.

3381 As Sally indicated, I believe yesterday, on CBC linear, we are almost entirely on preschool and then we have family program. We don’t try to reach that difficult middle ground kids on a platform that we believe they’re simply -- one, there’s a scheduling issue; and two, they’re not there. There’s just so many other choices in a highly fragmented English language market.

3382 And therefore, we believe -- and by the way, we have some great -- and I think Sally mentioned some great examples this past year, but especially during Covid, we’ve been able to acquire some great, great kids’ programming, and that again, to show the power of the digital. A deep -- a much deeper offering than CBC has ever been able to offer to this different age group. Sally looks like she might -- no, Barb looks like she might want to say something.

3383 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I just -- I just encourage you to reflect on this great balancing act that we struggle with every day. Because all of the things you’ve heard are true.

3384 It is true that we need to be sure that we still have programming that suits all audiences on our linear platform, particularly for those parts of the country where that is what they can access. It is true that kids of all ages, but particularly that youth category, are barely going to linear unless they are absolutely stuck and there’s nothing else.

3385 It is true that parents still kind of try to control the preschool kids and there’s a familiarity with them with turning on linear, and so preschool works on CBC. And it is true that the English market, now with the addition of Disney+, is overwhelmed by children and youth programming. And CBC is trying to find its path, frankly, through a commitment to uphold our -- our mandate to serve all Canadians, be respectful of where high speed broadband is available, and where it is not yet, see the audience data, and be sure that we’re putting our dollars into impact programming. And we’re -- and acknowledge the fragmentation in the whole market.

3386 So yeah, welcome to our challenge, not our nightmare, but our challenge, and that’s why flexibility. Because we don’t know next year what it might look like, or what changes there might be, or how we might adapt, never mind the year after that, or after that, or after that. Five years is a long time in this everchanging world. So that’s why we’re sounding reluctant to be more specific, because it’s purposeful that we need this flexibility at this time.

3387 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

3388 Just in terms of your programming strategy for youth, I’m wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about that? And the reason I ask the question, you’ve talked a lot this morning -- you talked about it this morning, you’ve talked about serving the various youth, children demographic.

3389 But part of your proposal is to remove the expectation of the five hours for the older -- the older, younger, demographic. And when I look at your financial projections, there isn’t anything in your proposed expenditures for the English language network for teens. There’s -- there are line items for preschoolers, there’s line items for children, but there is nothing over the next licence term for the 13 to 17. I don’t know if that’s an oversight or if it’s reflective of the programming strategy somehow.

3390 We’ve talked a little bit yesterday about the logging of the youth programming and how it didn’t appear -- doesn’t appear in the logs because that content was -- was family programming and it was logged otherwise. And so, as you may appreciate, from our perspective, from the regulator’s perspective, we are trying to understand how it all plays out. What is the impact of your proposal? What is your strategy to serve this older -- the -- you know, the youth, the older younger demographic?

3391 MS. CATTO: Thanks, Commissioner. I can jump in for CBC.

3392 As I said yesterday, we don’t intend to change our linear strategy. So series that we believe will appeal to youth, such as Heartland, I think I cited yesterday, and others, we have every intention of continuing. The goal of the youth strategy on digital is to -- is to have a more narrow focus on that 13 to 17 age group, content that is perhaps appealing not only to them, but I think, you know, on our linear platforms it’s broader; it includes them. But on digital, we have a unique opportunity to offer content that we think is just for them. And so that really plays out in a few different ways.

3393 As we mentioned, our digital originals, which are our short-form content, are really important to us. And a couple of years ago we took that pool of money and we took that strand of content and we made it youth-only; it wasn’t previously. And we’ve seen some incredible results from that.

3394 Not only have we had the opportunity to work with remarkable young and diverse talent across the country, but many of these series, like The 410, which was nominated at Slamdance Festival -- we’ve had a number of award-winning and digital originals that our youth audiences seem to truly enjoy.

3395 Now, we also have commissioned originals for youth that have been on Gem and on linear. And those might fall -- if you don’t see a line item for youth we will -- we can undertake to go back and check, but some of these sit under our drama team but they are for a youth audience. So a series such as Endlings, which we participated in with Hulu and others, that was a series directed, really, to school age and youth. And that was really intended for Gem, and it did also air on linear.

3396 So, I mean, every series is different. And then we have a number of acquisitions that might be Canadian as well, sometimes not, but that will be directed towards youth.

3397 So they fall into different buckets but hopefully that gives you an overview.

3398 Do you need more detail there?

3399 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: I mean, I think that’s very helpful, thank you. I think it would also be interesting to know how much -- you know, what the -- what is the projected expenditures are for the youth demographic. Maybe it’s from a different -- you know, it might be part of your drama budget, it might be part of the children’s budget.

3400 MS. CATTO: Sure.

3401 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Just to have a sense, this is what -- this is how much money we think we’re going to spend or we’re going to commit for this segment of the Canadian population. I think that would be useful and interesting to have a sense of how they will -- your thinking, what you’re thinking is in terms of how they would be served.

3402 MS. CATTO: Understood. We can undertake to get some projections for you.

3403 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

3404 UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

3405 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Now, I just have a housekeeping question for, quite possibly the regulatory team, in -- with regard to the children’s programming.

3406 In the current proposed conditions of licence for the broadcasting numbers for programming for children and youth, it specifies the programming must be Canadian whereas -- sorry. So in your current obligation, original programming is noted as Canadian, but in your new proposed expectation for the multi-platform, you have not specified Canadian for the original children’s programming. Could you please confirm for the record that the original hours will be Canadian for children?

3407 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: It’s Bev. I can confirm that for the purposes of meeting the expectation on digital that, yes, it would indeed be Canadian.

3408 COMMISSIONER LAFONTAINE: Thank you very much.

3409 J’ai une question par rapport à la programmation originale et la définition de la programmation originale. Est-ce que présentement vous incluez les émissions qui sont doublées dans la tabulation, dans le calcul de vos émissions originales, et est-ce que vous prévoyez pendant la prochaine période de licence que ces émissions… que lorsque vous calculez le 110 heures, que ça inclurait les émissions doublées originales de langue française?

3410 M. BISSONNETTE: Bev?

3411 Mme TAIT: Est-ce qu’on demande à Anne-Marie ou…

3412 M. BISSONNETTE: Oui, Anne-Marie.

3413 Mme TAIT: Anne-Marie peut-être? Je l’ai vue tout à l’heure. Voilà.

3414 Mme MIGNEAULT: Bonjour.

3415 Oui, en ce moment, le calcul… lors de notre renouvellement, c’est « originales pour enfants », alors c’est sans égard à la langue. Alors, nous incluons dans le calcul toutes les heures pour enfants originales en première diffusion, et… alors, oui. Oui, c'est inclus.

3416 Est-ce que vous avez besoin des chiffres?

3417 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Oui, je pense que si vous avez les chiffres, ça serait utile. Et donc, merci, Madame Migneault.

3418 Donc, vous dites pendant la période de licence actuelle, vous incluez les émissions doublées originales de première diffusion pour enfants, et donc, pour la prochaine période de licence, vous prévoyez faire le calcul de la même façon?

3419 Mme MIGNEAULT: La proposition de conditions de licence effectivement est de garder la même définition que la définition actuelle, oui. Alors, je confirme. C'est correct.

3420 Et j’aimerais profiter pendant… tout à l'heure, il y avait une discussion sur la disponibilité d’émissions pour enfants à la télé. La discussion était autour de la condition de licence sur les émissions originales, n'est-ce pas? Par ailleurs, il faut se rappeler que nous maintenons la proposition du 15-heures par semaine d’émissions pour enfants. Alors, ça veut dire qu’à la télévision, 15 heures par semaine, si on fait fois 52 heures, c'est 780 heures par semaine à la télé de programmation qui va toujours rester disponible en termes de programmation pour enfants, alors que la discussion tout à l'heure, c’était combien d’heures originales pourraient se retrouver uniquement sur une plateforme ou une autre. Merci.

3421 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Merci. Merci, Madame Migneault. J’apprécie beaucoup la précision et, en effet, 15 heures par semaine au cours d’une période de licence, c’est presque 80 heures pendant une année de la période de licence, c’est ça.

3422 Mme MIGNEAULT: C’est ça, et c’est la même chose pour CBC Télévision…

3423 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Exact. Oui.

3424 Mme MIGNEAULT: …qui maintient cette proposition.

3425 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Oui. Et c’est intéressant que vous proposez de maintenir le 15-heures par semaine de ces émissions, les émissions pour enfants, que vous ne proposez pas une diminution ou une augmentation, c'est-à-dire de maintenir. Est-ce qu’il y a une raison pour laquelle… ou quelles sont les raisons pour lesquelles que vous puissiez maintenir le 15-heures? Quel genre d’émissions, est-ce que c’est… qui sont inclues dans ces 15 heures, est-ce que c’est parce que vous avez une bibliothèque – a library – qui est vaste ou… si vous pouvez…

3426 Mme MIGNEAULT: Je vais laisser Dany Meloul, si vous permettez, répondre à cette question. Merci.

3427 Mme MELOUL: Merci, Anne-Marie.

3428 Alors, Madame la Conseillère, les 15 heures d’abord, c’est vraiment pour les 0 à 12 ans, hein? On ne compte pas les adolescents là-dedans, donc pour nous, c'est très, très important qu’il y ait, comme vous dites, presque 800 heures qui sont disponibles pour ces jeunes-là. C'est pas tant de la bibliothèque parce que nos droits sont ainsi faits, donc c'est des nouveautés qui reviennent année après année, on va être en production, on va en faire des nouveautés, et c'est un très… c'est extrêmement équilibré entre les 0 à 6 ans et les 6 à 12 ans. On est présentement à 50 % pour les tout-petits et 50 % pour les jeunes jusqu’à l’âge de 12 ans.

3429 CONSEILLÈRE LAFONTAINE: Merci.

3430 I’m just going to turn now to independent production and children’s programming. And I’m wondering if you would like to just say a word about your commitment to independently produced children’s programming and why your -- you know, why that is, you know, your proposal, why that makes sense as part of your application, you know, in particular in light of the fact that you have historically exceeded your obligations, why is what you have put forward the right -- the right mix, as it were? So, you know, the importance of independently produced programming, and why this was the right proposal.

3431 MS. TAIT: Maybe I’ll just give an overview there.

3432 As we stated, I believe yesterday -- I’m not sure I remember -- our commitment to the independent production sector is paramount, and for that reason we proposed this 80 percent threshold. And in kids’ programming, this is a huge area of opportunity, both in French and in English because it’s an area where we have excelled and independent producers in Canada generally have excelled.

3433 The financing is complex sometimes. They have many multiple partners. When Sally talked about, you know, four or five multiple partners, you'll find it in the financing of kid's programming, but there is an enormous appetite for both English and French kid's programming. So, maybe, Sally, you want to take that one step further?

3434 MS. CATTO: Thank you. I think that is very well said. And I think what I'd say is, you know, children's programming now, like all content, you know, it can be viewed by Canadian audiences with international producers, international stories, international content. And I think it's very important to us to continue to support Canadian independent producers who are telling stories that reflect our country, who are telling stories that are relevant to our children. Of course, some content is universal and global, but Canadian independent producers are obviously invested in and just in the DNA is a desire to truly reflect our country. And as Canada's public broadcaster, that is of paramount importance to us.

3435 Mme MELOUL: Et j’ajouterais tout simplement qu’il y a aussi un secteur d’animation qui est très, très important au Canada, un secteur qui aide à combler les besoins du côté de langue anglaise, mais aussi avec du doublage du côté de langue française aussi. Et c’est aussi un contenu qui voyage extrêmement bien à l’international.

3436 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Merci. We're going to now turn to children's programming on audio platforms, on radio, and on digital audio platforms. There was an intervention filed by Mr. Michel Delome on behalf of Radio Enfant that raises concerns, the concern that children are generally extremely, excuse me, underserved by radio services in Canada. With regards to CBC, he states that it removed all children's programming from its radio programming. In your application, the CBC stated that it intends to grow its children and news programming to better serve these audiences on both conventional and digital platforms.

3437 So, I wonder if you could speak to this intervention and what your plans are or what you've been doing and what your plans are in terms of children and your audio platforms.

3438 MS. TAIT: I think we'll invite maybe Barb and then Michel. I just from -- from a high-level point again, I would just say that, actually, audio is a place of opportunity for youth programming and for kid's programming and we see it that way, but, Barb, maybe you have a point of view or you want to go straight to Sally?

3439 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think I just -- I will go straight to Sally because I think she has good context for what we're doing on the traditional platform as well as those opportunities that, as you say, are growing on Listen. So, I'll just hand it to Sally.

3440 MS. CATTO: Thanks, Barb. The area that we are most excited about and where we're seeing traction is in podcasting that involve children's content. Certainly, our kid's team and our remarkable podcast team have been partnering on some very successful podcasts, our Podcast Story Store, which is wonderful. You know, when it premiered, it went straight to number one on iTunes. Tai Asks Why is a podcast that really explores questions that children have, also very successful. So really, for us, podcasting is the area we intend to grow in because we feel that that is where, again, we can access children. So, that's where we're seeing success, that's where we're focussing in terms of audio.

3441 M. BISSONNETTE: Et j’inviterais de mon côté Caroline à répondre à votre question, Madame la conseillère.

3442 Mme JAMET: Oui, merci Michel. Alors effectivement, en fait, du côté des services français, nous avons présenté en fait récemment une émission à la radio qui s’appelle Paroles d’ados. Alors, nous avons du contenu à la radio de façon ponctuelle pour les jeunes, une émission qui s’adressait aux adolescents, donc, qui a été diffusée très récemment.

3443 Mais je pourrais aussi vous dire, du côté de l’audionumérique, c’est une offre qui est grandissante de notre côté; nous avons déjà 60 contenus présentement sur OHdio, donc des balados – par exemple, un balado des Débrouillards, qui est une balado formidable, Arthur l’aventurier, donc aussi des propriétés télévisuelles que nous avons en balado – en fait, une production qui a été originale pour le balado – Ingénieux Junior aussi, sur les inventions canadiennes, qui est un balado formidable et Les jeunes sages. Ça, c’est des exemples que je peux vous donner; Les jeunes sages, un balado sur la philosophie, des enfants de sept à quinze ans qui nous parlent d’art, de discrimination, alors c’est un balado formidable.

3444 Je vous ai parlé hier des livres audio également; nous avons une très grande collection de contes, de livres pour enfants. Élise Gravel, par exemple, Beau dodo, des livres pour endormir ses enfants – ça, c’est vraiment une collection qui est très, très belle. Entre filles aussi, pour les adolescentes – ça aussi, c’est un autre contenu.

3445 Alors, en fait, c’est là où nous sommes. Je pourrais quand même vous dire qu’à la radio, de façon globale – puis là, je ne vous parle pas de Radio-Canada, mais sur le marché montréalais et je n’ai pas le chiffre pour le national – mais la moyenne d’âge à la radio, c’est 49 ans. Donc, ce n’est pas le médium le plus approprié, je vous dirais, peut-être, qui rejoint… peut-être, ce n’est pas le médium qui rejoint le plus les enfants en tant que tel.

3446 Alors, je pense qu’aujourd’hui, vous le savez, maintenant, avec un téléphone, on peut rejoindre les jeunes beaucoup plus facilement; vous savez, les jeunes ont tous les écouteurs quand ils marchent dans la rue, alors c’est peut-être un médium qui est beaucoup plus approprié pour les rejoindre et c’est pour ça qu’on développe ces projets-là en audionumérique mais également, comme je vous ai dit, nous avons des projets ponctuels.

3447 Et puis peut-être juste pour faire un commentaire supplémentaire, nous avions, il y a plusieurs années, une émission qui était à la radio, qui s’appelait Ado Radio et nous avions réalisé que cette émission, en fait, s’adressait aux jeunes, mais on a réalisé en faisant des études que c’est surtout les parents qui écoutaient et moins les enfants. Donc, je pense que c’est important de le noter, elle a été à l’antenne longtemps, mais ce n’était pas un contenu qui rejoignait finalement la cible.

3448 CONSEILLÈRE LaFONTAINE: Très bien, je vous remercie. Vous avez parlé en particulier lundi avec le président d’études de marché, des études de perceptions, etc. Est-ce que CBC/Radio-Canada fait des démarches ou prend des démarches, fait des recherches particulières pour … en ce qui concerne la jeunesse, des émissions pour les enfants et les adolescents? Est-ce qu’il y a des recherches particulières qui sont faites, d’études de marché, autres que ce que vous avez parlé déjà pour déterminer vos stratégies de programmation, pour déterminer ce qui va être mis sur les ondes?

3449 M. BISSONNETTE: Je passerais à… Sorry, Catherine?

3450 MS. TAIT: I was just going to say that the -- you know, do we measure in-depth kid's -- the kid's market on an ongoing basis, I think we referred to the MTM junior report, which really is about audience behaviour, audience taste, where are kids going, are they watching Netflix, are they watching Disney Plus, are they on YouTube, are they on TikTok, by the way, which had not been invented at our last license renewal, we have to remember. But I think in a fashion that is -- I'm getting French words in my head, pointue, you know, something on a -- in a more specific way, we do deploy audience research, or we'll go deep into audience behaviour on a particular segment, but I would say not on a systematic basis. And that really -- we obviously depend on ratings and that kind of information that we get back from Numeris or Comscore. But on a regular basis do we measure, you know, kid's appetites or response to our programming, we do not have anything on a regular basis at this time.

3451 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Thank you. In terms of the undertaking that the corporation has taken in terms of coming back to the Commission on reporting about the different types of programming, the different platforms, will that or could that include your plans and your activities in relation to children's programming, children and youth.

3452 MS. TAIT: It could.

3453 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Thank you. And it will, yes?

3454 MS. TAIT: Sorry, yes, and it will.

3455 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: No, no.

3456 MS. TAIT: Sorry.

3457 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Thank you. All right. So that is the end of my questions on the children's programming. I just have two quick regulatory questions that I just want to be sure that we have for the record, if I may, and just to come back quickly on the original children's programming, and I just want to be clear on the calculation, how this is calculated. And when you talk about the 100 and -- it's 110 and 52, these are all original hours, they're all unique hours? There's no double counting, there's no -- I guess it's just no. There's all unique and there's no double counting. Can you please confirm that for original?

3458 MS. TAIT: Am I answering that or is Bev answering it? Okay, yes. I just wanted -- I believe we're back to the 52 versus the 40, so you might want to just correct that for the record, and, yes, no double counting, or, no, no double counting.

3459 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Right. So it's 52 -- the expectation of 52 for the English television and ---

3460 MS. TAIT: No. No, Tina, please, correct the record?

3461 MS. TATTO: Yes, the expectation is 80 ---

3462 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Sorry.

3463 MS. TATTO: --- hours.

3464 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

3465 MS. TATTO: No problem. No problem.

3466 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: So 80 hours for children on English ---

3467 MS. TATTO: Across both platforms, yes.

3468 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Yes. And then ---

3469 MS. TATTO: With a floor of 40, yes.

3470 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: In television. And then 110 and 80 on the French side; right?

3471 MS. TATTO: Correct.

3472 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Right. Excuse me.

3473 MS. TATTO: No problem.

3474 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: And so -- so for the 80 and the 110, they are original unique hours, no double counting?

3475 MS. TATTO: Correct.

3476 COMMISSIONER LaFONTAINE: Thank you. And then my very last question, I want to come back just very briefly to original first run and the report that CBC/Radio-Canada has stated in its application that it will be doing -- that it will be filing with the Commission on an annual basis. On the French side, je reviens à la question du doublage : est-ce que les émissions originales de première diffusion qui seront énoncées dans ce rapport annuel, est-ce que ces émissions vont inclure les émissions qui sont doublées?

3477 M. BISSONNETTE : Anne-Marie?

3478 Mme MIGNEAULT : Oui.

3479 CONSEILLÈRE LaFONTAINE: Merci.

3480 Those are all of my questions, Mr. Chair. And thank you very much, Ms. Tait, and your colleagues, for responding to my question. Merci beaucoup.

3481 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner LaFontaine.

3482 Commissioner Barin, I believe you have a question? You do not?

3483 Vice-Chair Simard, do you have any further questions on this area?

3484

3485 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Yes, I do – merci, Monsieur le président.

3486 Alors, ma première question, puisque nous sommes en train de clore ce chapitre sur – pour l’instant du moins – ce chapitre sur la programmation canadienne, j’aurais quelques questions de clarification, d’abord pour, disons, le service ICI Tou.TV et Extra.

3487 Vous n’êtes pas sans ignorer qu’il y a eu beaucoup de questions de la part d’intervenants sur ce service et plus particulièrement des préoccupations au niveau de l’accès, puisque vous réclamez 6,99 $, donc un prix d’entrée. Pourriez-vous, pour le dossier public, clarifier, disons, comment ce prix-là a été établi? Alors, je comprends donc des informations qui ont été soumises qu’il y a donc des ententes avec des distributeurs, des ententes avec des partenaires. Je ne sais pas si c’est au dossier public, mais je devine des droits à payer puis des considérations, évidemment, de marché par rapport aux autres joueurs.

3488 Alors, pourriez-vous pour le dossier public, nous donner plus d’information, s’il vous plaît?

3489 M. BISSONNETTE : Juste pour préciser, Madame la vice-présidente : Tou.TV Extra est un endroit où on peut avoir des primeurs, bien sûr, qui sont mises là pour ceux qui veulent écouter en rafale dans un environnement sans publicité. On retrouve également – et ces séries-là par la suite vont se retrouver sur ICI Télé et en rattrapage sur la partie gratuite d’ICI Tou.tv. Donc, ultimement, tout le monde a accès à l’ensemble des séries; c’est plus une première fenêtre de diffusion qui est là également.

3490 Mais on retrouve également sur la partie Extra, donc la partie payante, l’ensemble des anciennes saisons. Donc, si vous voulez… si vous écoutez Unité 9, dès la saison 1 se retrouve là, tous les épisodes de la première saison de District 31 se trouvent là. Donc pour les gens qui veulent retourner en arrière et avoir accès à ces séries-là, bien entendu, on doit libérer les droits pour pouvoir leur donner accès à ce catalogue-là qui est immense et c’est ce qui justifie le prix du 6,99 $.

3491 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Donc essentiellement, est-ce qu’aussi, vous considérez les ententes avec vos partenaires pour la fixation de ce prix, les ententes de distribution également?

3492 M. BISSONNETTE: Il n’y a pas d’entente de distribution parce que c’est un service qu’on appelle, en bon anglais, OTT, qu’on compare aux autres services qui pourraient être faits…

3493 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Oui, je vais préciser, pardon – avec Telus par exemple?

3494 M. BISSONNETTE: Avec Telus, l’offre… c’est un service qu’on a offert à tout le monde, mais c’est Telus qui nous a dit oui, mais c’est une proposition qui a été faite à plusieurs distributeurs et Telus a décidé de l’offrir, donc pour leurs abonnés, ils ont accès à Tou.tv dans leur forfait Telus. Mais la version qu’ils ont de l’accès, mais avec publicité.

3495 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait. Alors, ça n’a pas été considéré… ça n’a pas été l’une des considérations pour la fixation du prix, c’est ce que je retiens pour le dossier public?

3496 M. BISSONNETTE: Tout à fait.

3497 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait, excellent.

3498 Deuxième question concernant l’Extra : je sais qu’il est difficile de prouver… c’est-à-dire que lorsqu’on bascule dans le monde en ligne, on essaie de trouver des repères, les repères ne sont pas toujours les mêmes. Est-ce que selon la… c’est-à-dire la façon dont vous avez conçu ce service-là, l’Extra, on pourrait l’associer à la programmation qui est diffusée en heure de grande écoute? Est-ce qu’on pourrait faire cette analogie-là ou quand on essaie de trouver ces repères-là, est-ce que ça, ça pourrait être un repère ou au contraire, vous pouvez me dire « Non, moi, je ne suis pas du tout d’accord avec cette vue-là »?

3499 M. BISSONNETTE: C’est-à-dire que je pense que Madame Williams l’a bien précisé hier; c’est que quand une émission est diffusée sur la télévision linéaire ou traditionnelle, elle a une case horaire, elle va donc être diffusée le mardi à 20 h.

3500 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Oui.

3501 M. BISSONNETTE: Quand on se retrouve dans l’environnement numérique, toutes les émissions sont disponibles 24 heures sur 24, sept jours sur sept. Donc, la notion de soirée ou de jour n’existe plus du tout.

3502 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Exactement.

3503 M. BISSONNETTE: C’est vraiment… oui, je vous en prie.

3504 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Si je peux me permettre, juste pour préciser davantage, donc : ça évidemment, vous êtes en train de donner tout le contexte autour de ça et c’est justement, c’est ces repères-là qui n’existent plus dans le monde en ligne. Quand on parle dans le monde traditionnel de la programmation aux heures de grande écoute, évidemment, ça fait référence à une programmation particulière; disons, je vais m’arrêter là pour la qualifier. Est-ce qu’on pourrait dire que justement, on pourrait faire ce parallèle-là avec l’Extra puisque ça réfère aussi, donc, à une offre qui est particulière?

3505 M. BISSONNETTE: C’est-à-dire, le parallèle que je vous ferais plus, si vous me permettez, vous savez, avec l’arrivée de Netflix, il y a des habitudes de consommation qui ont profondément changé chez les gens, où est-ce que les gens vont s’assoir pour commencer une série puis ils vont s’assurer de pouvoir en écouter trois, quatre, cinq épisodes pendant le week-end parce qu’ils sont un fan et c’est une consommation qui est très différente de la consommation de télévision qui elle, tu dois attendre à l’autre mardi, 20 h, pour avoir le prochain épisode.

3506 Et notre ambition ou notre souhait, ça a toujours été avec l’Extra de pouvoir avoir une alternative francophone aux géants que sont Amazon, que sont Netflix. Et en ce sens-là, ce qui est chargé, c’est pour avoir des primeurs, pour avoir des séries qu’on peut écouter en rafale dans un environnement sans publicité et par la suite, on le diffuse sur nos antennes traditionnelles.

3507 Et encore une fois, vous savez comme moi à quel point le coût pour les productions canadiennes, il y a une pression énorme, c’est de plus en plus coûteux et cet argent-là n’est pas, comme on le dit depuis le début, n’est pas là pour enrichir un actionnaire, mais les revenus sont 100 % réinvestis en contenu canadien.

3508 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait. Maintenant, pour poursuivre dans la même voie, lorsqu’on parle, donc, de ce monde-là en ligne - donc vous avez déjà foulé, disons, ce sol-là - présentement, il y a déjà donc une offre qui s’y trouve. Est-ce qu’il y a des indicateurs de rendement présentement que vous utilisez pour apprécier cette offre-là?

3509 M. BISSONNETTE: Bien oui, parce qu’on suit nos abonnements quotidiennement. Donc autant, je vous dirais, dans l’univers des services par abonnement, il y a deux critères. Il y a les nouveaux abonnés et il y a ceux qui se désabonnent. Donc, il faut s’assurer d’avoir une offre de programmation pour que les gens restent abonnés et il faut avoir des offres de programmation pour attirer des nouvelles personnes et c’est la combinaison des deux qui nous permet de pouvoir voir notre performance.

3510 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Puis est-ce que vous allez aussi jusqu’à utiliser le nombre, par exemple, de vues par vidéo, les contenus, comment ils sont disposés sur votre site, par exemple, sur la première page? Est-ce que ça, ça fait partie également de votre pratique actuelle?

3511 M. BISSONNETTE: Bien, c’est-à-dire c’est ce qu’on appelle la connaissance fine des auditoires. Donc, on peut savoir quand quelqu’un s’est abonné, quel a été le premier contenu qu’il a consommé, donc quel a été l’élément déclencheur pour provoquer un abonnement. On peut voir également quels sont les contenus les plus populaires et les moins populaires et je pense que c’est une source d’information qui est précieuse pour ceux qui font le métier d’être en programmation.

3512 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait.

3513 Puis je vous ai posé toutes ces questions-là pour ultimement, évidemment, au niveau de votre proposition, un commentaire qui a été émis par plusieurs Canadiens c’est de dire, ben, vous utilisez les heures alors que les heures ne sont pas, disons, une devise qui est acceptée. Lorsque vous allez passer votre pont, donc les heures sont utilisées dans le monde traditionnel. Quand on arrive en ligne, c’est pas une devise qui est acceptée. Ça fonctionne pas très bien dans ce monde-là.

3514 Alors ma question c’est est-ce que, lorsque vous avez développé votre proposition - vous l’avez dit hier - ç’a été longuement réfléchi et muri? Est-ce que vous avez considéré cet élément-là, c’est-à-dire de donner des garanties aux Canadiens de cet ordre-là, donc qui serait rattaché à des indicateurs de rendement ou de succès?

3515 M. BISSONNETTE: Bien, c’est-à-dire c’est pas des heures de programmation, mais c’est assurément des heures de contenu. Si le catalogue, dans son ensemble, n’avait que 100 heures, l’intérêt pour s’y abonner serait mince. Donc c’est important d’avoir un volume d’heures de contenu qui est élevé pour satisfaire l’utilisateur en bout de ligne.

3516 Mais j’aimerais aussi rapporter pour les fins du dossier que c’est pas le seul service payant de Radio-Canada. On a également RDI. On a également ARTV, puis on a également Explora qui sont des services payants. C’est un de plus qui s’est ajouté à notre offre comme diffuseur.

3517 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait.

3518 Mais pour la partie en ligne, est-ce que donc… est-ce que ces garanties-là ont fait… ce que je retiens c’est que ç’a été, oui, discuté et tout ça, mais est-ce que, ultimement, on va entendre les intervenants? Est-ce que vous pouvez déjà leur dire que c’est quelque chose, un, qui a été considéré, puis deux, s’il y avait des garanties qui devaient être demandées supplémentaires, vous êtes prêt à aller de l’avant ou non? Alors c’est juste pour clarifier.

3519 Puis un exemple c’est vraiment, par exemple, au niveau de mettre en ligne de façon très évidente sur votre page… votre première page, par exemple, des trucs aussi simples que ça.

3520 M. BISSONNETTE: Bien, je peux vous assurer que le contenu sur ICI Tou.tv Extra, comme sur ICI Tou.tv dans son ensemble, le pourcentage de contenu canadien est sensiblement le même que ce qu’on peut retrouver sur ICI Télé et, inévitablement, le marché francophone au Canada, ce qui plait le plus, ce sont le contenu original canadien. Donc inévitablement, si vous arrivez sur Tou.tv dans le carrousel qui est en haut, c’est toujours la promotion du service canadien qui est mis à l’avant-plan parce que c’est ce qui provoque le plus grand nombre de visionnement.

3521 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait.

3522 Alors ce que je retiens… est-ce que c’est un oui ou c’est un non? J’essaye juste de clarifier pour le dossier.

3523 M. BISSONNETTE: Bien, c’est-à-dire que je suis pas certain d’avoir saisi qu’est-ce que vous voudriez qu’on prenne comme engagement, c’est-à-dire versus ce qu’on offre présentement.

3524 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: C’est-à-dire est-ce qu’il y a des… est-ce que, lorsque vous allez élaborer cette offre-là, il a été considéré ou est-ce qu’on pourrait le considérer présentement, des garanties supplémentaires comme au niveau de la présentation de l’offre qui… là, vous me parlez de contenu canadien. Je pense pas que c’est là que ça joue avec les Canadiens présentement, mais je sais pas, on va peut-être entendre justement les groupes des langues minoritaires, qui se trouvent en situation minoritaire, nous dire, « Ben, ça serait de mettre de l’avant du contenu, je sais pas moi, qui réfère à nos régions. » Alors il pourrait y avoir toutes sortes d’exemples comme ça. C’est beaucoup au niveau de la présentation. C’est ce qu’on voit dans d’autres juridictions lorsqu’ils sont allés de l’avant avec une régulation du contenu en ligne. Alors l’exemple de la présentation c’est probablement le meilleur exemple, le plus simple.

3525 Mme TAIT : Excusez-moi, mais est-ce qu’on peut demander à Bev pour peut-être clarifier là-dessus?

3526 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Well, I just -- and I was just looking back on the undertakings from the past couple of days, and one of the things that we have undertaken to get back to the Commission on is how overall, on both linear and digital platforms, we would promote and ensure discoverability. So I think to a certain extent we can respond to that as part of our February 3rd undertaking.

3527 COMMISSIONER SIMARD: That's a very good point. Thank you very much.

3528 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Thanks.

3529 COMMISSIONER SIMARD: That would be appreciated.

3530 Et ma dernière question, c’est une question que j’avais posée pour les services de l’information. Ça s’applique ici. C’est tout simplement pour confirmer pour le dossier public.

3531 Donc, de la même façon, lorsqu’on parlait des services de l’information, je vous ai demandé est-ce que les normes et pratiques journalistiques s’appliquent pour votre offre en ligne, de la même façon ici, toutes les règles qui concernent la publicité pour les enfants, tous les codes au niveau de la violence, des trucs comme ça, pourriez-vous nous confirmer pour le dossier public que toutes ces normes-là évidemment sont respectées par Radio-Canada/CBC?

3532 Mme TAIT: Absolument, oui.

3533 CONSEILLÈRE SIMARD: Parfait. Excellent.

3534 Je vous remercie beaucoup. Merci.

3535 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup, Madame Simard.

3536 We will now, I think, turn to another area, and if I may, I will ask Commissioner Anderson to take the floor. I believe she has some questions for you in the area of relevance and diversity. So let me turn the floor to Commissioner Anderson.

3537 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that, Mr. Chair.

3538 As the Chair said, I will be speaking about diversity and relevance; and then I'll speak about accessibility of programming; and finally, the ratings classification.

3539 But before I do that, I just wanted to introduce myself. As we do in my culture, my name is Claire Anderson, and I'm a citizen of the Taku River Tlingit First Nation in northern British Columbia.

3540 And first, I wanted to acknowledge what you said this week, Mr. Brass, about your parents going to residential school. My father did as well. Institutionalized racism comes in many forms, and that certainly is one example of institutionalized racism.

3541 Second, I wanted to acknowledge that I am tuning in, so to speak, from Whitehorse, Yukon, on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation, and the Ta’an Kwächän Council, and for that I'm privileged to be here. I'm privileged to be a guest on these territories, but I'm also privileged to be a part of this discussion, which President Tait summarized perfectly on Monday. We're here to -- we are here to discuss how the public broadcaster can become even more representative of all Canadians over the next licence term.

3542 So on that note, I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the makeup of the senior executive team, as well as the CRTC Panel, which is something that was noted by President Tait on Monday as well. Four of the five Panel members here are women, and half the people on CBC senior executive team are women. That can't be a coincidence. The sheer number of women here today in senior leadership positions is the result of a tremendous amount of time and work, and I do not presume that it was easy to create a space for women at this level. So this accomplishment ought to be applauded.

3543 So on that note, I'd like to start a discussion on diversity and inclusion by asking you to speak to CBC's commitment to gender parity. Why did CBC decide that gender parity is an important goal?

3544 MS. TAIT: Thank you, Commissioner Anderson.

3545 To start on the voyage, we'd have to turn the clock back on gender. I had the -- as I have noted, I have the enormous privilege to be the first woman appointed in this role. It took 80 years. It's too long. And so when I -- I've said to many of -- on many occasion to external and internal groups, I felt very strongly that having got my foot in the door my obligation and my commitment was to keep it there and to ensure that we invite others through that door, and that has been the -- really the commitment of CBC Radio-Canada over the last few years.

3546 But just on the specific question of gender parity, I had the occasion to read -- and I'm going to give a small story. I won't go on about this, but when I was invited to a woman's group in our industry to talk about CBC/Radio-Canada and I asked Bev if there was any history on women at CBC because you may or may not know, my mother was a secretary in her first job out of university. That was the only job that was really available to women in 1953 at the CBC. And Bev came up with a document from -- written in 1970 or so about women in the workforce at CBC/Radio-Canada. And there was a lot of reflection in this document about women having enormous skills with respect to dextrous hands, and that made them very good because of their small dextrous hands to be secretaries at the CBC/Radio-Canada. And there were a lot of these kinds of opinions held, so that was in the '70s. And here we are today with all these brilliant women from all over the country serving the public broadcaster and our regulator, and it's an enormous cry.

3547 Very specifically, this is not a -- oops, we're having an emergency alert here in Ottawa. This is not -- this was not easily won, and decisions had to be made to change hiring practices, to focus on training. And perhaps the best example is really in what we accomplish in independent production and in our programming schedule over the last few years where, thanks to an organisation called I believe Women in View in Canada, we made -- they brought -- this is an independent organisation that brought to the attention of the industry the fact that women were so poorly represented in key decision-making roles in the production of Canadian programming. Decision-making roles are generally the director, the producer, the show runner, or the writer in a television program or even a feature film.

3548 And the organisation -- this predates me, the CBC/Radio-Canada and a number of other private broadcasters made a commitment at that time to hire women into the writing room, oftentimes there are many writers on a series, and into the director's chair. And it has moved the needle, and I believe we filed the results of that in our report.

3549 Can we do better? Can you take your foot off the gas? My feeling is never. You know, misogyny sits next to racism. And we know it is even -- you know, there's an overlap, which is terrifying at times, so we don't take the foot off the gas, either in our hiring practices or in the consideration.

3550 I would say that women remain -- one of the groups that the Federal Government's Employment Equity Act still focusses on, we have shifted our focus because we are very well represented and we have -- and have done extremely well in the area of gender parity, we have now shifted our focus to other underrepresented groups and perhaps that goes to your second question.

3551 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: We'll address that shortly for sure. But I was wondering if we could talk a little bit more about gender parity and why -- how does parity help achieve some of the programming objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act?

3552 Ms. Tait: Well, that's a very good question. It has -- not that the others weren't. It has to do with, you know, when we talk about representation and reflecting the population of the country, and ultimately, it goes to that. We are -- or the Act very clearly states we must serve all Canadians, and the half of the population is female, and therefore, we have -- that is an obligation that we take very seriously. I don't know if anybody else here wants to add to that. Barb, another female executive that has been on the same journey.

3553 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, Catherine and I have shared this journey and talked about it often over the last many decades. I think the root of your question is one of the larger question of inclusivity and particularly at the decision-making table. Catherine and I are both very privileged to have been able to rise up in this organisation and in the industry as a whole as women, and we're proud of the effort we've put behind gender parity. However, we have not been inclusive of all women. We still have an enormous way to go to be sure that that gender parity and that percentage that is female is also inclusive of all women, not just white women. We have a ton of work still to do in that way.

3554 And the decision-making is all about having at the table decision makers of all types of programming, entertainment and news, that truly are bringing that representation of the population, that the decision-making table reflects contemporary Canada, that the decision makers about what gets green lip, what story gets covered, what is on the news agenda is shared amongst those that are reflecting their own lived experiences as Canadians throughout the entire population.

3555 So, effort has been made and strides have been taken and we can point to some success, but oh, we have a long, long to go to be sure that at the decision-making table, which does ultimately influence the programs that hit our airwaves, and our audio waves, and our digital platforms to be sure that there's true inclusion and representation at that table.

3556 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Wonderful. Thank you. And I do intend to flesh out the discussion more on other diverse groups being represented adequately, both behind the camera and in front of the camera.

3557 But to go back to parity, I'm just trying to understand clearly your proposed condition of license because it doesn't specifically mention gender parity, but the condition of license does speak to statistics, which presumably would advance the goals of gender parity. So, I was wondering how does gender parity factor into your license renewal application and specifically does your proposed condition of license advance the goals relating to gender parity at CBC?

3558 MS. TAIT: Thank you, Commissioner. Bev?

3559 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: I think there's two pieces to this. There is the -- what you were referring to in terms of numbers and women generally, but I think a few years ago there was a summit that was convened by the CRTC with respect to gender parity. And at that time, CBC/Radio-Canada made a commitment with respect to gender parity, and with respect to ensuring that the types of key leadership roles that are involved in production of shows, that we would demonstrate and report on how we were doing, and be able to see, you know, whether we needed to take further steps, whether there were gaps.

3560 So, with respect specifically I think to that part of your question, we've proposed as part of our application to make that voluntary commitment a condition of license. Catherine?

3561 MS. TAIT: I think you've answered it. Thank you.

3562 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So the voluntary commitment, to be clear, is to report on the number of women in these specific positions, or would the commitment be quantifiable, like, a number, a proportion, for instance?

3563 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: It is a number. And we are filing as part of our voluntary commitment, I think we are filing our latest numbers I think it's later this month with the Commission, or -- and we will be making it public. So, yes, they are numbers. They are related to key leadership roles that we've identified. And it's a year-by-year -- and it's -- it breaks down CBC and Radio-Canada separately.

3564 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. So would there be a difference between a voluntary commitment and, say, a condition of license that established a benchmark, a 50 percent minimum benchmark?

3565 MS. TAIT: Go ahead, Bev.

3566 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Oh, so one is reporting and telling you how we're doing and identifying areas, gaps and allowing us to figure out how to improve the pipeline in terms of -- or work with independent producers and ensure -- because we do both in-house and commissioned -- and to be clear, what we're reporting on to the Commission as part -- currently as part of our voluntary commitment is with respect to Commission programming. So it’s not the CBC/Radio-Canada employees.

3567 So if you could just clarify what you’re proposing vis-à-vis a benchmark, that’s a bit different than what -- to clarify than what we’ve proposed.

3568 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes, and certainly a common theme that we’ve heard throughout this week is using a benchmark or a baseline or establishing a floor when we want to, for instance, ensure security measures or ensure that, say, programming when it comes to linear services is protected.

3569 I wonder why we wouldn’t have a similar performance measure when it comes to the reflection of diverse populations at leadership levels or in key creative positions.

3570 MS. TAIT: Well, and perhaps that goes to the next part of the conversation, which is the broader diversity piece.

3571 Parity, by the word itself, has a number in it. It’s 50 percent. So I think we’ve -- and we’ve demonstrated both, you know, a willingness to continue reporting and a willingness to have a conditional licence around that reporting.

3572 So I think we’re probably ready to go to the second piece of the enquiry, which is what about other underrepresented groups?

3573 And you know, in a way, I have to say it’s sort of almost like the woman thing is, it’s never over. But our numbers and certainly in our employee base, the numbers are so stunningly successful in this area, that perhaps we’re taking -- we’re assuming that the truck is not going to go into reverse.

3574 What you’re saying is, well, maybe you need a benchmark so that it doesn’t go into reverse.

3575 So I got it (laughter).

3576 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And, yes, you’re right. My next question was what is the metric that you’ve selected when it comes to ensuring that there are black Canadians in leadership positions or key creative positions, or Indigenous Canadians or people of colour in leadership or key creative positions?

3577 MS. TAIT: So on that question, I am going to turn this over to my colleague, Marco Dubé, so that he can give you a little bit of context on how we measure, not just in independent production but also -- I think we need to start, because so much of what we do is news and enrooted in that, as Barb said, is the diversity challenge and representation opportunity.

3578 So maybe I’ll just turn it over to Marco to give you a better sense of how we are measuring.

3579 MR. DUBÉ: Bon, moi aussi, je vais m’habituer.

3580 Merci Catherine; merci, Madame la conseillère. Alors, sur la question de comment on mesure la diversité dans notre main d’œuvre, je pense que ça fait plusieurs années maintenant qu’on suit très fidèlement donc la proportion dans notre main d’œuvre des groupes sous-représentés en fonction des obligations que nous avons à l’égard de l’équité en emploi et du gouvernement fédéral.

3581 Donc, il y a évidemment quatre groupes que nous suivons. Les femmes, nous en avons parlé évidemment. Nous suivons évidemment le groupe que l’on appelle minorités visibles, qui va comprendre les groupes de personnes racisées, les noirs en particulier. Nous suivons le groupe de personnes autochtones et aussi le groupe de personnes en situation de handicap.

3582 Nous avons en recensement culturel dans l’organisation. Donc, un sondage, un questionnaire. Nous demandons à tous les nouveaux employés de répondre à ce sondage-là et de s’auto-identifier en fonction de ces groupes-là.

3583 Et évidemment, de façon générale, dans l’organisation au niveau de la représentation des trois groupes sur lesquels nous mettons notre -- notre focus, pardonnez-moi l’anglicisme, donc c’est-à-dire les personnes en situation de handicap, les groupes de personnes racisées et les personnes autochtones, on n’est pas suffisamment représentatif de la population canadienne, c’est sûr. Et le benchmark qu’on utilise donc vraiment le point de référence qu’on utilise c’est, pour nous, la disponibilité de la main d’œuvre dans le marché canadien.

3584 C’est un processus donc qui nous vient aussi de la classification des emplois du gouvernement fédéral. Et au niveau de la disponibilité de la main d’œuvre, là encore, on trouve que nous ne sommes pas représentatifs.

3585 Alors, depuis plusieurs années, nous avons mis beaucoup d’effort sur l’embauche de nouveaux employés avec des cibles très agressives pour pouvoir rattraper le retard que nous avons. Nous faisons du progrès à chaque année mais évidemment nous sommes encore loin d’être complètement représentatifs de la population canadienne.

3586 Et je pourrais en parler encore davantage évidemment puis aller dans plus de détails si vous le souhaitez.

3587 MS. TAIT: If I could just make -- sorry, I beg your pardon.

3588 I just want to go maybe one step further in our reflection. There’s so much -- we’ve been working a lot, really hard on this, so we’ve got a lot to say about it. And I do want to, at some point, involve some of the leaders in the Company that are really living this and taking this file forward. So just to give you again a little bit of background on how we’ve been managing.

3589 As Marco said, 2018, we launched a very aggressive or ambitious plan to improve our numbers in terms of new hires.

3590 And then, at the end of 2019, in December, we put in place a Diversity and Inclusion working group in the Company, across the Company, Radio-Canada and CBC, with representatives from all the different groups; what we call, “Equity Seeking Groups”, in the Company. And we’ve tasked them with helping us to identify how we can do better.

3591 Because just hiring people, the targets are great, hiring people is a great first step, but what we were learning was once we had set these targets is that the experience of the people within the Company was not necessarily a positive one. And they did not feel that they were being promoted or having access to the higher, senior jobs, and we were having retention challenges.

3592 And so right out of the gate, this working group recommended that we shift our focus or incrementally add to our focus the idea of retention and promotion targets.

3593 So currently, we have -- and I believe this was made public -- we have set a doubling of those particular measures. And in addition, we put into place, which is really to me the most important mover on this, we put in a requirement that 50 percent of all new senior management hires, and there’s a pay band level which Marco can give you, all senior management hires, 50 percent of all senior management hires must come from one of the employment equity-seeking groups, excluding women.

3594 So this would allow us to start accelerating what we consider to be lack of representation, especially in those key decision-making leadership roles within the Company.

3595 And even since that was put into place, I believe, in June or July, we’ve seen already some fantastic results as a result of that. And there are a whole lot of policies that flow from that, that include the requirement that we have more -- equal number of representatives or candidates when we hire, equal number of representative people on the hiring boards.

3596 We’ve really, really gone deep into this to combat the -- I guess to combat the idea that there aren’t people out there to hire from these groups; to really try to advance that position.

3597 But I will leave it there because I feel like I’m talking too much.

3598 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: No, not at all. I appreciate that, and I was wondering then would the objectives set by the Diversity Working Group or the objectives set as a result from conversations with the working group. Are those objectives made public, and are the measures, whether or not those objectives have been met, are those reported to the public?

3599 MS. TAIT: Well, we -- as I said, this is all just in the last year that we started really ---

3600 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right.

3601 MS. TAIT: --- accelerating this work. But yes, just before the holidays we published online a diversity inclusion update, and that document is available there. And it outlines in relative detail all the different actions of what we consider to be a new commitment to accelerating the issue.

3602 So as we may have tried to state earlier in the -- in this hearing, for us it falls into three areas: our content, so that's the programming, in‑house programming independent production; and then it goes to our workforce; and then it goes to our workplace culture, and that's about making sure that people feel welcome and we create an inclusive and productive and fruitful experience for everybody who works here.

3603 So measures in that area would be, for example, we put into a place a hotline, a hot platform for people to be able to report any experience or witnessing of racist acts or -- in the workplace on an anonymous basis. That was put in place in July. We have now made it mandatory for all employees to take in unconscious bias training. Initially, we had said, "Oh, just for managers", and then the working group came back to us and said, "No. We think it should be for all employees. Let's do that."

3604 So it's a very, it's a very ambitious plan, and it includes, as I said, the results of internal discussions with Indigenous -- we have a thing called ERGs, and we have ERGs in all -- that are -- represent all these equity-seeking groups, and we had a lot of input from external groups who had ideas and recommended action plan, you know, suggestions. And all of that....

3605 Where is Nicky. Nicky Davis. Is he here? There is Nicky. So Nicky can speak to -- I don't know how many recommendations there were, but there were a lot, and how we're processing. I really would like to put the mic in the hands of the person that -- one of the people that is managing this process.

3606 MR. DAVIS: Thank you for having me here, Commissioners. I really appreciate being here. I mean, it's been a long three days, but I'm glad we have an opportunity to talk about something that's near and dear to my heart.

3607 I would just say in terms of the committee that Catherine's talking about, this committee has been working for the past year, and right -- you know, we did work on the hiring targets retention rates and promotion rates, and it is 15 percent of all people boarded for leadership positions in A and A+ must be from an underrepresented group. And we think that is actually, definitely, has borne true as we can tell from some of the hires that have recently happened, leadership hires, like our SMBs in Ontario and in the North, and we have some other leadership positions that are coming up right now.

3608 One of the key things around that hiring process too was not just around who we hire and who we board, but also who's on those boards and who makes those decisions on who gets hired so there is reflection in that, and that the board has to be made up -- the hiring board has to be reflective of the people being boarded.

3609 And also, we've been working with talent acquisition, who falls under Marco's group, around just looking at questions and interview questions, and looking at job postings and are the wording's in job postings inclusive and make people feel like it's something that they should be applying for that they feel comfortable applying for.

3610 So lots are happening. And right now we're also taking a look -- that committee is taking a look at all of our policies, all of our policies, and making sure that those policies are being looked through a lens of engagement and inclusion to make sure that we are actually making sure that people do feel inclusive. And there's some other projects that are happening in the company that this group knows about that we take some feedback from the Diversity Working Group on as well.

3611 But just to be clear, and I just want to make sure this gets on the record, is that we've been doing this work long before last year I mean, this is work that CBC has been doing for quite a while and there's a couple of projects that have been in place for quite a while that have been trying to address the issues around better representation of leadership.

3612 And one of those projects, of course, is a project call DEL, which is our Diversity Emerging Leaders program. We're going into the fifth year right now. And what that program has done is identified leaders from equity-seeking groups, potential leaders around those key groups, and making sure they're getting leadership training so when leadership positions are available, you know, we do have a pool of people to choose from who have gotten training and who have been identified by their managers as people who have leadership potential, and all these people come from equity-seeking groups. Like I said, we're just finishing up our fourth cohort of it, so our fifth cohort starts at the end of March.

3613 We also have a program called CAPE, which is our CBC Ability Placement for Excellence 'cause we think that people with disabilities also need opportunities to get into this company and have an opportunity to be successful in this company. And that program's going into its fourth cohort which just started actually this past Monday, and it's actually another great program.

3614 We're -- and we're looking right now at expanding that program, and actually -- like right now, we have 10 placements but we're looking at extending it and to make the placements longer and to find other opportunities for the people who graduate from CAPE so that there's an opportunity for them to work at CBC after.

3615 So there's lots of things happening, and they've been happening for quite a while. And a lot of the things that the Diversity Working Group is trying to do is in making sure we amplify those efforts and also come up with new initiatives to make sure that there's some sustainability around those efforts.

3616 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3617 MS. TAIT: And if I may, Commissioner ---

3618 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sorry.

3619 MS. TAIT: --- I'm sorry to interrupt you. It wouldn't be fair, as you can see, we have a lot of passion on this one, but it wouldn't be fair if I didn't invite Radio-Canada to also speak.

3620 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Of course.

3621 MS. TAIT: So if you don't mind, I'd like to introduce, well, I introduced her on the first day, Dorothy Alexandre, and then maybe also Isabelle Picard. Because what I did mention in my opening remarks that on the -- with respect to Indigenous peoples, we have two leaders, and Isabelle is one of them at Radio-Canada, and we have a lot of exciting projects underway under Isabelle's leadership.

3622 But On va commencer avec Dorothy.

3623 Mme PICARD: Merci beaucoup. Alors, oui, on a fait depuis mai dernier, en fait, depuis mon embauche, on a fait beaucoup d’initiatives pour améliorer le recrutement d’autochtones à Radio-Canada. Entre autres, bien, déjà, je peux vous dire qu’on a des résultats : on a quadruplé le nombre d’autochtones à Radio-Canada depuis mai, donc c’est quand même pas rien.

3624 On a également une banque de candidatures de plus de 50 curriculums vitae provenant de personnes autochtones, ce qu’on n’avait pas, avant.

3625 Donc, on a trouvé de moyens alternatifs pour aller chercher ces gens-là, puisque on s’est rendu compte qu’à Radio-Canada nos plateformes d’offre d’emplois, bien, n’étaient pas consultés par les autochtones. Donc, on s’est vraiment collé à la réalité des autochtones francophones, donc du Québec en particulier, pour aller les chercher là où ils sont, finalement, à travers nos propres réseaux et les réseaux sociaux également, qui sont beaucoup utilisés par les autochtones.

3626 Également, ce qu’on fait, c’est qu’on a, j’ai participé à un comité d’embauche lors de l’embauche de reporters spécialisés sur les questions autochtones à Espace Autochtone, et ça, c’était une première. Nicky en parlait tout à l’heure, de l’importance d’avoir des autochtones ou des groupes, des gens des groupes minorisés à l’intérieur des comités d’embauche. Bien ça, c’est une première initiative également qu’on a fait.

3627 On a également, je le disais tout à l’heure, favorisé un affichage adapté aux réalités autochtones. Et on a fait des rencontres avec les ressources humaines pour favoriser même la compréhension socioculturelle des recruteurs de Radio-Canada lors des suivis ou lors des embauches des personnes autochtones. Donc ça, c’est une étape de plus qu’on a fait à Radio-Canada.

3628 MS. TAIT: Et Dorothy, vas-y. Tu es en sourdine.

3629 Mme DOROTHY ALEXANDRE: Parfait, merci Catherine, merci Isabelle, et bonjour Madame la commissaire Anderson.

3630 Donc, mon équipe et moi, puis je pense que je vais prendre quelques instants, peut-être, pour vous expliquer comment fonctionne l’équipe « inclusion des communautés » au sein de Radio-Canada; Isabelle en fait partie.

3631 Donc, cette équipe-là existe depuis peut-être à peu près cinq ans, donc il y avait un directeur avec une employée, et depuis peu, nous sommes rendus huit, donc l’équipe a plus que triplé. Et nous avons à peu près cinq axes de travail qui sont importants pour faire avancer les enjeux de représentativité. Parmi ces axes-là, on parle bien sûr de tout ce qui attrait au service conseil et à l’accompagnement.

3632 C’est-à-dire que les divers secteurs peuvent nous contacter pour soit réviser des nomenclatures, la terminologie, pour faire avancer des dossiers avec eux ou avec elles, bien sûr, où est-ce qu’il y a des enjeux peut-être d’incompréhension. Il y a bien sûr tout ce qui attrait à la sensibilisation et bien sûr l’éducation, donc ça, ça fait partie prenante des enjeux de la diversité. Parce que j’aime toujours le dire; la diversité pour une personne, c’est la normalité pour une autre.

3633 Donc, comment faire pour s’assurer que la diversité soit une posture et non pas juste un concept, quelque chose qu’on coche? Donc, c’est un travail que l’on fait, bien sûr, qui est de longue haleine, mais qui est très pertinent. On fait également beaucoup ce qui attrait à la gestion des talents, donc tout ce qui attrait au sourcing, au recrutement, à dépister ces talents qui sont à travers nos communautés. Et c’est bien sûr pancanadien, donc ce n’est pas limité au Québec, mais bien sûr à travers la francophonie au Canada.

3634 Pourquoi? Parce qu’il y a beaucoup de barrières que vont vivre ces talents-là. C’est-à-dire le manque de réseaux, comment s’assurer de faire reconnaitre son talent, qu’est-ce que le talent. Bien sûr, leur faire comprendre que leur place également est à Radio-Canada, donc c’est un travail que l’on fait.

3635 Et il y a un autre rêve qui est important, c’est toute la notion d’incubateur, et pour ça, on a, entre autres, un projet qui s’intitule Synergie. Comme le nom le dit, il vise à créer des ponts entre les talents et ceux des groupes sous-représentés et bien sûr les producteurs indépendants, qui sont vraiment les personnes qui mettent les projets à l’écran. Et aussi, toutes les personnes qui peuvent vouloir travailler au sein de Radio-Canada.

3636 Donc, je vais me limiter à cela, mais c’est pour dire qu’il y a beaucoup de travail qui est fait. C’est de longue haleine, mais bien sûr on essaie de mettre en place les structures pour pouvoir avoir des résultats concrets.

3637 MS. TAIT: Merci, Dorothy. Okay, back to you.

3638 MR. DAVIS: Could I just add one thing, please, just quickly before we move away from this?

3639 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes. Sure thing.

3640 MR. DAVIS: It’s -- I just want to make it clear that my team, in English services, works very closely with Isabelle and Dorothy’s team. Like, we are in meetings probably two or three times a week, especially with their boss loop. And we work really closely with corporate, the corporate D&I team as well, with Juran (phonetic) and his team, and we meet two or three times a week, because we want to make sure that we’re all on the same page around how we are talking about this work, and that we’re all doing the work towards the same means and ends, the Radio-Canada end and English services.

3641 And we’ve learned a lot from both of them. We’ve also hired an Indigenous Senior Officer on our team, and that person whose name is Robert Doane, has a direct link to Isabelle and they’re going to be working together.

3642 So there is lots of energy and synergy amongst our own D&I teams right across the company. And I think it’s been the best thing that I’ve noticed since I joined -- started my job a year ago, is how much in close contact we are, and how much we rely on each other for support.

3643 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Mr. Davis, can I just ask you one very quick question? And that is, within the equity groups that you’ve referred to earlier, are people who identify as LGBTQ included in those equity groups?

3644 MR. DAVIS: They’re no -- they’re not in the official language of what CBC is, but we do recognize them. We have an ERG called OutCBC, which has done a really great job in terms of us helping promote LGBTQ+ community issues. They’ve been very instrumental in helping our company move forward around those issues.

3645 So yes, so we do acknowledge them, and acknowledge the issues that are coming from that group through our ERG. But I know they’re not formally part of the language that we use as one of the equity-seeking groups in their language. But we do definitely make sure that they have representation in the work that we do.

3646 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

3647 MS. TAIT: This might actually be a good moment to express a general concern that we have about some of the language that’s being used in our industry at large, but also at the Commission with respect to diversity and inclusion.

3648 We have -- Marco said very clearly, we -- all of our data comes from self-identification. And until we get to a place of extreme trust, and we are not there yet. Some people choose not to self-identify because they feel that that could be used against them. And let’s just be very clear on that. So the data right there is challenged.

3649 Specifically, in the area of LGBTQ2+, there is a debate about whether or not gender and gender fluidity, or other issues should in fact be measured in this way, because we’re into, I think somebody once said, we’re in the bedrooms of Canadians and that’s not where we should be. So we have a concern around that.

3650 We do have it on our -- in our, you know, forms, and people do self-identify. However, it’s not something, because we are a federal crown, we do not publish those figures, because we are reporting, we’re following the guidance of the Employment Equity Act. That’s point number one.

3651 Point number two is, even when in this terminology a visible minority, we have a problem. We have heard loud and clear from our Black employees, from our Indigenous employees, and from other racialized employees, please don’t put us in one big bucket and call us visible minorities.

3652 And I think the Commission, or maybe the -- no, I’m sorry. I’m mixing up. That’s on the Legislative Review. There was a concern expressed about calling even racialized communities, because what we’re doing is stigmatizing people in their otherness. And somehow, you know, well, you understand the argument better than anyone.

3653 So -- and even within Indigenous Peoples, as you well know, we have so many different groups and one of the -- the pieces of advice I got from somebody in our industry was, just say the words. Say Black, say Indigenous, say people of colour, say people living with disabilities. Just say the words. Yes, it’s a big, long sentence, but please don’t put a bucket on it.

3654 So we’re struggling internally with that. We want to do the -- we are absolutely focussed on creating an environment with -- so that people who come into the company will feel welcomed, will feel included, can make a contribution and do not feel stigmatized in any way, and do not experience -- and worse, do not experience any racism.

3655 So anyway, I just put that conversation around -- it may be something, it’s not perhaps for the proceeding today, but it’s something that we would very much like to work with the Commission on terminology and language, because this for us is the opportunity. You heard it in my opening remarks. Digital is a platform. The opportunity for this organization over the next licence term, is to make meaningful, concrete, tangible change in this regard.

3656 And -- but we need to -- we need to have an open and frank conversation about language that doesn’t in any way alienate or stigmatize any of the people either in our company or in out industry.

3657 So I just put that out there for your consideration. Thank you.

3658 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Anderson, if I may interject? And Madam Tait, thank you for that. I think we all have -- there is a lot of ground to cover in this area. We all have many lessons to learn. So I appreciate your comments on that.

3660 I think if we could, Commissioner Anderson, this may be a good time to take our morning break and we can think about the last responses before we continue the discussion. Madam Secretary, can we return at 11:00?

3661 MS. ROY: Perfect. Thank you very much.

3662 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 10:45 a.m./

L'audience est suspendue à 10 h 45

--- Upon resuming at 11:03 a.m./

L’audience est reprise à 11h03

3663 MS. ROY: Mr. Chairman, we may continue.

3664 le président: Merci, Madame la secrétaire.

3665 I will turn the mic back to Commissioner Anderson to continue our discussion.

3666 Commissioner Anderson.

3667 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

3668 Okay. Continuing the discussion about diversity and inclusion.

3669 In the past year the CBC/SRC has been the subject of public statements by current and past employees, its unions, and the public regarding diversity. It has also been criticized in the international press regarding its handling of anti-racism coverage.

3670 During the CBC’s coverage of the US protests that arose in response to the killing of George Floyd, the CBC broadcast footage of police vehicles driving into protestors. The CBC later admitted that the coverage was poorly worded and mischaracterized the events.

3671 The CBC/SRC’s Editor-in-Chief made a public statement on June 8^th, 2020 asking how can we ever deepen our understanding -- our awareness and understanding of race if more people of colour, more indigenous people, more women, more people with disabilities aren’t in positions of power and influence throughout our newsrooms? The Editor-in-Chief went on to say that:

3672 “We heard complaints, not new, that our interpretation of CBC’s journalistic standards and practices are so rigid that it can muzzle, within the organization, important voices and lived experiences.

3673 Do our definitions of objectivity balance, fairness, and impartiality, and our insistence that journalists not express personal opinions on the stories we cover work against our goals of inclusion and being part of the community and country we serve?” (As read)

3674 The Editor-in-Chief went on to make various commitments on behalf of the CBC News, Current Affairs and local services, including some of the commitments that we’ve discussed this morning; that:

3675 “One in two new hired in the department at all levels come from underrepresented equity groups, and that there will be a review of leadership to ensure that CBC continues to hire and promote the very best by drawing from diverse groups.” (As read)

3676 So I will ask some more questions on those commitments, just for the record, but there’s a few other incidents that I wanted to discuss, and one of them also occurred on the same date, June 8^th, 2020. And that’s when the host of CBC’s Yukon Morning, Cristine Genier, resigned shortly after making on-air remarks about the underrepresentation of Indigenous and Black voices at the CBC.

3677 In a four-minute address to listeners at the end of her June 8^th show, Ms. Genier said that the CBC’s journalistic standards and practices make it difficult for her to speak out as an indigenous woman.

3678 Since then, at least some Black CBC employees have expressed the view that although CBC and SRC have done a decent job at hiring people with diverse backgrounds for on-air positions, that diversity has yet to reach into senior management, into the Board of Directors, and to the President and CEO.

3679 In July 2020, CBC and SRC’s unions sent a letter to the Corporation. The letter was written by a group of Black, Indigenous, and persons of colour and other allied employees, and it was signed by 470 current and former CBC employees from all across Canada. The signatories made specific requests for change, including establishing an internal Ombudsman or Ombudsperson, to whom employees can submit anonymous complaints about racist editorial decisions without fear of reprisal, and ensuring that Black, Indigenous, and people of colour have decision-making authority at all levels of the Corporation from editorial to management.

3680 Again, during an annual general meeting -- or, sorry; the annual public meeting, and this morning, the President of CBC, Ms. Tait, has confirmed or affirmed their commitment to reflect the reality of their audience, or CBC’s audience is really at the heart of relevance and it’s the future of the public broadcaster.

3681 She’s noted that the CBC and SRC has set goals to better reflect its public relating to diversity at decision-making levels for shows commissioned and for the hiring of managers, including upper management.

3682 The CBC has also stated that it’s making good progress on employment diversity metrics and it plans on improving -- sorry; it has plans to improve areas that need improvement.

3683 So just bear with me, I think that I’ve hit my points.

3684 (SHORT PAUSE/COURTE PAUSE)

3685 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right. So the CBC has proposed a number of reporting requirements, as we’ve discussed, relating to diversity, both behind and in front of the camera.

3686 Specifically, the CBC/SRC has proposed to provide a report containing the percentage of diverse staff that are hired during the broadcast year and at the management level at both the CBC and SRC and as well as provide a report or include within a report annual statistics regarding diversity and CBC’s commissioned and in-house program, in terms of on-screen and audio performance.

3687 Also included in the report would be annual statistics regarding diversity in CBC and SRC’s commissioned programs on the production side.

3688 So my question is; how do CBC and SRC’s new commitments, as set out in CBC’s recent public statements compare to the changes that its Black, Indigenous, and employees of colour and their unions are calling for?

3689 MS. TAIT: Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.

3690 I won’t go through all your comments because I’m assuming you’re -- that’s just forming the background; you’re not asking specific questions about some of the things you read to us.

3691 Very specifically, we are reporting and we are committed to reporting on all progress, and as I said, we established this Diversity and Inclusion Working Group to, in a sense, shepherd us through with the leadership from the team, from that team. Shepherd not just the senior management, but also senior management reports to the Board on the recommendations of that group.

3692 So just to be very clear that this activity is not just isolated within the company senior management; I sit on the committee, and then I report to the Board on progress that we’re making.

3693 As I said, many of the requests, and again, Nicky will throw in a number, but maybe there was 75 individual requests and he'll correct me. Each one of those has the -- the process has been that the working group reviews them, assesses them, and then makes a recommendation to senior management and then there's a second discussion if there's any practical issue, or budgetary issues that might cause us to not be able to implement immediately.

3694 So just to be clear, each -- and I think Nicky said it, we are working our way through each and every one of the recommendations and there were many. And specifically, we can talk about the one that you mentioned on the -- the recommendation on the internal ombudsman, that it was determined that the hotline was going to provide the anonymous reporting requirement in a way that would be sufficient at this time. And, again, we know these files are live and it's a work in progress, but I think that perhaps answers your question. If not, I'll invite Nicky to maybe correct the number of individual calls to action.

3695 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is that report -- or is there a report that comes from the 75 different requests to the working group, and does that get reported to the public or to the CRTC?

3696 MS. TAIT: No, there is no formal report. We internally -- I mean, we received letters and requests from -- as you described from many groups, some of them over Twitter. So, we really just -- it was an action of where we assembled what those calls to action were and then the diversity and inclusion working group. And, again, this is real time. We were -- we're still at it, and I would say probably the intense work has been happening through, what, July, August, September and October probably has been the intense process. And then we were -- as I mentioned, we reported to the public on our actions, summarised at -- on the corporate website. And if you have not been able to see that, maybe somebody could flip that document over so that -- to help the Commission understand where we're at on a number of those recommendations.

3697 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I saw the summaries ---

3698 MS. TAIT: M'hm.

3699 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: --- but I was wondering if there would -- there was a more complete reporting that's done.

3700 MS. TAIT: No, not at this time, no.

3701 MR. DAVIES: And I can speak a little bit to it. Just for you, Catherine, we did have -- we heard from five different groups of people who had calls to actions. We've gone through all the calls to actions in terms of gone through every single one of them and actually have decided -- and we're in the process of deciding how we're going to handle all those calls to actions. We've met with all the groups individually, after going through the calls to action just to give them an update. And the update that Catherine's talking about is really an update. We still have work to do on those calls to actions and we're still going to -- and we're continuing to do that work.

3702 We had ramped up our readings from month to month to once a week to make sure we got through all those calls to actions. And it was -- if you want to know, it's 40 pages of reading, if you want to read them all. It's a massive document. Just in terms of the calls to actions and our conversations and discussions around how we want to handle them and move forward on them.

3703 So, it is a work in progress. We've -- in terms of the black employees, Indigenous employees, the union requests, and the requests from the visible women, we've spoken to all of them. And I could -- I feel that we're all satisfactory on where we're going with it. Of course, we have to land somewhere, and once we have that landing, we will actually present actually a more formal report that we will give back to those groups, so we can actually answer them around how we are going to proceed with their calls to action.

3704 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Do some of the requests or concerns raised speak to programming and whether or not programming reflects Canada's multiculturalism or meets the needs of diverse populations?

3705 MS. TAIT: Yes. They're kind of -- I would say, as Nicky has outlined, a number of those requests, and certainly the union requests have to do with internal representation and representation with respect to news. That would be one group. And then another group would be the -- from the independent -- my screen keeps changing, so I'm looking for you. There you are. It would go to independent production community requests, so several -- I think there were two groups from the black filmmaker community, the black screen office, and another coalition of black filmmakers or producers, and similarly, on the Indigenous side. So, some of those have to do with representation on -- in our independent production commissioning policies. And as I said, the other would have to do mostly with our news programming.

3706 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I wonder what your views would be on sharing some of that reporting with the Commission, so that we are able to measure whether or not programming is meeting the needs of Canada's diverse populations?

3707 MS. TAIT: I think what we have indicated to the Commission is -- and we can get into this a little -- in a little bit more detail, of -- on a going-forward basis we are more than happy to put in place -- and it's actually one of the calls to action from several of these groups is to put into place a better tracking methodology, kind of a dashboard on our -- not only on our in-house but also our commission programming, so that we can report on and be transparent about. Doing that on a look back is more challenging because we just only have been focussed on employees.

3708 So, we can provide and we're happy to provide a look at our employee base in terms of key decision-making roles and that kind of thing, but it's a little bit more challenging for us to go -- to do a look back on the independent production side, simply because we've not been tracking it.

3709 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So the data isn't there when it comes to the independent production side?

3710 MS. TAIT: But going forward we will be, yes.

3711 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you for that.

3712 Okay. How will the proposed commitments relating to diversity, both in your application as well as recent public commitments, bring the corporation closer to its goals for diverse and inclusive programming?

3713 MS. TAIT: Well, I think you've heard from all of us that this is an absolute priority, and I think the combination of targets, real targets, ambitious targets and transparency in our reporting on our achievement of those targets will bring us closer. I see Barb's hand went up, so she might have a better answer to that question. Go ahead.

3714 MS. WILLIAMS: No, not a better answer, but I might add to the answer. There's no doubt that some of the rigour around the measurement and the metrics and the actual exposure, if you will, of what is -- who is really working for us, what are they really doing and how does it reflect contemporary Canada, what gets measured gets done, and there's no doubt that all of those metrics are going to be helpful for us as a corporation to understand whether we are meeting that -- the mandate to serve all Canadians and reflect contemporary Canada. And I think what I have really experienced in the corporation the last year-and-a-half, and I will say very honestly, it was one of the great opportunities to come and work at CBC/Radio-Canada, is because we will make these kind of commitments to this kind of work and do it very seriously, is the dailiness of the work. This isn't only something that's reported on once a quarter. We are doing this daily.

3715 Nicky sits at my leadership table. He is a peer to Susan Marjetti and Sally Catto and Richard Caney and the other leaders at my table. And he, in fact, owns on our -- twice-a-week leadership meetings, he owns the first piece of the agenda on every single meeting, so that we always hear from Nicky about what's going on out there in the culture of our company as it relates to diversity and inclusion.

3716 Nicky also, in addition to running the D&I team for us, an engagement and inclusion team for us, I have to say is an advisor, a teacher, a counsellor. We are all in an educational effort here to better understand what institutionalised racism is, how it really shows up in our system, and where our own blocks have been about understanding the impact of some of the best practices that we have followed for so long. And trying to understand, not only that we may have always had good intent, but what is the impact. And the dailiness of that work, the commitment to learning, the commitment to education, the commitment to listening I actually thing shows up then in the metrics, but the work is what's making the difference.

3717 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that. So moving on, how should the CBC and SRC report on its commitments relating to diversity and inclusion? You have said that it is in on a daily basis, but how should that reporting be done to the public? How should it be done to the Commission? Is the level of reporting that is provided in the summary reports, for instance, for the diversity and inclusion summary report adequate in your view? What is a -- what is a meaningful -- what would meaningful reporting look like and to whom?

3718 MS. TAIT: I believe we have, and I'm -- again, procedurally I don't want to get myself tied up in doing something that I will be punished for by Bev, but I believe that we have a proposal in this regard, and Marco can probably describe it.

3719 And this has to do specifically with the notice of -- that we received from the Commission, or the letter - again, my procedural language is not good - with -- when asked specifically about some of the measurement. And so we've taken that note very seriously and spent some time thinking about it 'cause, as I said, this is a priority for us.

3720 So with your permission -- and I'm -- and I -- again, there may be other measures and we're happy to discuss that, but I'd just like to get, if I may, get on the record what it is we are proposing and then maybe go from there.

3721 Marco?

3722 M. DUBÉ: Oui, je pense, Catherine, qu’on a déjà… on s’est déjà engagé à prendre un engagement pour regarder tout le reporting ou les rapports qu’on va faire dans un ensemble et revenir à la Commission, au Conseil, dans quelques jours. Je pense que Bev peut peut-être rajouter là-dessus, mais ça va me faire plaisir de parler de notre proposition en termes de diversité et engagement, certainement.

3723 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So, I'm going to jump in, and if I'm repeating something or if it is not clear or if it's not what you want, just stop me.

3724 I think we're talking about two different things. I think what Catherine was referring to was a snapshot of looking back over the past broadcasting year. I think what Commissioner Anderson was asking about was going forward, how we report.

3725 Now, if I've misunderstood the question, I will stop. So do you want to look forward or look back?

3726 COMMMISSIONER ANDERSON: On a going-forward basis does seem to make sense.

3727 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Okay. So why don't I start, or perhaps it would make sense for Marco to start about reporting going forward, unless you want me to clarify what it is that we've proposed in our application going forward, if that would be helpful.

3728 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: We could put it on the record if you like.

3729 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So I actually thought that in your opening remarks you clarified or you set out what I thought was quite clear with respect to how we'd be reporting on the workforce data, and that was one of the proposals. So that's the percentage of staff from underrepresented groups, whether it was within CBC or Radio-Canada as a whole, and also the subset at the management level.

3730 So unless you're seeking any clarification of it, I thought that you had captured it, and I don't know if you wanted more details of the how.

3731 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Well, I think it would be interesting to know what the benchmark is and what the objective is, what would be the appropriate level of diversity because that still is not exactly clear to me. It's just -- what I understand is being proposed is to just note the number of employees or people in key creative positions from different diverse backgrounds, but what is the appropriate level of diversity? What are we trying to achieve?

3732 MS. TAIT: So just -- so just to go to that if I may. I'm getting a lot of echo. Is it just me? Other people getting it? Okay.

3733 We -- as Marco has outlined, we identify the available workforce, these are public numbers, he'll tell you where he gets them, and we set that as the goal. If we're not already there, that's the -- that becomes the goal, first goal.

3734 Second goal is we don't know whether or not those available workforce numbers are truly reflective of the society; right? I mean, that's just what's available for us to draw from in order to fill some of these positions.

3735 And then we do all the other work that you heard Dorothy talk about, synergie, talked about -- I think Jean-François Rioux talked yesterday about what we do at the University of Regina in terms of training new young journalists from diverse backgrounds and brining them into the shop.

3736 So we do a whole lot of other things to supplement the straight -- and to Barb's point, to the straight numbers exercise, which is how do we achieve the, you know, the -- call it the benchmark of what's available in the workforce, that's the first goal; and then how do we surpass it or do better or get even more talent into the pipeline. Those are the two things that are going on at the same time.

3737 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay, thank you for that. So is the CBC currently measuring this? Has the CBC achieved this level of representative available workforce?

3738 MS. TAIT: Marco?

3739 M. DUBÉ: Oui, alors pour répondre à votre question, nous mesurons depuis longtemps la proportion d’employés qu’on embauche, évidemment, avec des objectifs très ambitieux, et nous mesurons depuis longtemps la représentation dans notre main d’œuvre en fonction des divers groupes de disponibilité dans la main d’œuvre.

3740 Présentement, nous n’atteignons pas, de façon générale, la disponibilité dans la main d’œuvre et c’est la raison pour laquelle on a mis en place beaucoup d’initiatives dans l’organisation pour pouvoir accélérer l’embauche de personnes provenant des groupes sous-représentés. Nous progressons d’une année à l’autre, mais évidemment nous n’atteignons pas, pour le moment, les paramètres que nous nous sommes fixés.

3741 MS. TAIT: And just to be clear, these -- I'm getting that echo again, Conrad. Just to be clear, the -- we -- these objectives in the last year with respect to hiring are part of the performance indicators, key performance measures for the entire management team. So this is not just a report that we send in once a year; this is something that we measure on a quarterly basis and we are held accountable to it, and it is very, very much a link to our own -- the assessment of our own performance. So -- and those are available on the corporate website and in all our quarterly annual reports, so -- quarterly reports and annual reports. So that is fully disclosed, that information on hiring.

3742 I think that now that we have added these new measures, we will probably layer on some additional KPIs related to some of the things we're talking about in terms of retention, promotion, and hiring in the senior management ranks.

3743 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: You'll have to forgive me. KPIs?

3744 MS. TAIT: Key -- sorry -- key performance ---

3745 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay, yes. Yes.

3746 MS. TAIT: --- indicators, sorry.

3747 Thank you, Barb.

3748 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sure. So what you're proposing, then, is to expand the different measures going forward to include the different or the various levels of management, I suppose?

3749 MS. TAIT: Yes.

3750 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Do you have any information that you can share with the Commission that isn't published on the website that might flesh out how the CBC is doing in terms of diversity at various levels of management?

3751 M. DUBÉ: Ben, je pense que les chiffres sont publics. Je pense qu’on les a déposés déjà pour votre bénéfice.

3752 Ce que je dirais de façon générale c’est que la cible de faire en sorte que le senior management, donc la gestion supérieure, si vous voulez, qu’on embauche une personne sur deux provenant des groupes sous-représentés dans les prochaines années, est une cible très ambitieuse.

3753 C’est une cible sur laquelle on travaille fort. On a mis des ressources pour s’assurer qu’on est capable d’aller chercher les candidats, d’identifier les candidats, de les amener. On a vu plusieurs embauches dans la dernière année parmi les groupes sous-représentés. Et je pense que ça, ça va porter ses fruits dans les prochaines années certainement.

3754 MS. TAIT: Bev?

3755 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Thank you.

3756 I would just suggest that for greater detail, if you refer to our December 1^st, letter, we provided a link to the workforce analysis reports that I think that Marco was referring to, and there’s also a link to a breakdown by component. So there’s quite detailed reporting there, and all of which is publicly available.

3757 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I’ll take a look at those reports on the break and just get back to you on the sufficiency, but thank you for directing me to that reference.

3758 My next question related to the underrepresented equity groups that we’ve been referring to, and I believe that you’ve responded to that. It would be -- so, again, actually, maybe for the record, could you please confirm what the underrepresented equity groups you’ve just referred to are, in terms of the one-in-two new hires coming from the underrepresented equity groups?

3759 M. DUBÉ : Oui, absolument. Nous avons toujours les trois groupes; donc les groupes de personnes autochtones, le premier. Le deuxième c’est ce qu’on appelle les minorités visibles, donc qui comprend les personnes noires, les personnes racisées et le troisième ce sont les personnes en situation de handicap. Donc, on met vraiment l’accent sur ces trois groupes en particulier.

3760 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3761 Do you think that the CBC and SRC’s diversity and inclusion plan and proposed new conditions of licence are enough to ensure that the diverse population of Canada is considered and reflected in CBC and SRC’s programming? Please elaborate on why or why not.

3762 MS. TAIT: I would say -- and I will invite Michel and Barb to comment on this because at the end of the day, it’s not -- as I said, it’s not just how we measure. As Barb said, it’s also in the stories we tell and how we tell them.

3763 And so we are -- I think you’ve heard about -- very clearly about our commitment to improving on the numbers’ side of the equation but equally important is who do we invite on a show? How do we choose the show? How do we -- or how do we choose a story to tell, and from what point of view do we tell that story? And I think that’s what permeates our true success and a measure of how we truly represent contemporary Canada.

3764 So -- and we haven’t really had a chance to say that the two markets are quite different, the Francophone and Anglophone market, so I do want to give an opportunity to each of Michel and Barb to talk a little bit about how we represent Canada in the programing we do.

3765 Michel?

3766 M. BISSONNETTE: Merci. Madame la conseillère vous savez, le défi, et j’ai eu la chance de le mentionner en ouverture lundi, bien sûr le défi de la diversité c’est ceux qu’on retrouve à l’écran, mais c’est beaucoup plus que ça. C’est un défi sur quel angle on prend et comment ça vient teinter le contenu qu’on peut retrouver dans nos émissions. Et en ce sens-là, il y a plusieurs initiatives qui ont été mises en place, on a une formation qui a été faite pour l’ensemble de nos journalistes, de façon à ce qu’ils comprennent plus la réalité autochtone et comprennent mieux comment intervenir auprès des communautés quand il est le temps de pouvoir faire un reportage.

3767 On a également des formations qui sont faites aux ouvertures sur des séries dramatiques qu’on peut avoir. On a un projet incroyable qui est en développement présentement, mais bref, le… Notre défi ce n’est pas juste une diversité à l’écran, ce n’est pas juste une diversité dans notre force de travail, c’est une diversité dans le type de contenu qu’on va retrouver et c’est ce sur quoi on s’emploie présentement.

3768 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And we will be touching on relevance of programming in an upcoming section, but just to wrap up this one particular subsection, I’d like to ask for an undertaking for the 2018 to 2021 Diversity and Inclusion Plan in its entirety, along with a comparative chart that highlights your commitments to diversity and inclusion at the time of the application, as well as the new commitments that you have made in public.

3769 UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

3770 MS. TAIT: Okay. My understanding is that it’s all been submitted but maybe I’m wrong on the -- no, says Bev. Okay.

3771 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

3772 And can we also get an update of the objectives set out in the National Action Plan, specifically with respect to Item number 18, to participate in an Indigenous Index which is used to measure the CBC/SRC’s performance with regard to recognizing and implementing Indigenous people’s rights?

3773 UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

3774 MS. TAIT: Duly noted, yes.

3775 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is that a yes to the Undertaking?

3776 MS. TAIT: Yes. Yes, it is.

3777 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: oh, sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your cooperation, I appreciate that. Okay.

3778 MS. TAIT: If I may, if I can just correct the record because it’s important to the young people that are involved in it; c'est le centre de formation à Régina. I called it the wrong thing and I just want -- given that I just spent a virtual meeting with them, I don’t want them to think that I didn’t know the name of the program; le centre de formation. That’s where we train new multiplatform reporters and we place them in stations across the country, so thank you for that.

3779 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3780 The next section that I wanted to talk about was the reflection of diverse population -- sorry; reflection of the diverse population of Canada, which is something that we’ve spoken a lot about this morning.

3781 So I’ll try to tweeze out the questions that have already been addressed but just to suffice it to say that the Broadcasting Act says that the Canadian Broadcast system should, among other things, safeguard and enrich and strengthen the cultural and social fabric of Canada. And, in addition, the Act states that programming provided by the CBC should reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada.

3782 So one of my questions is; how does both the CBC and SRC ensure that diversity issues are being covered appropriately in its news coverage, and with sensitivity?

3783 MS. TAIT: I think I’ll start with Barb on that one, but just an overall, I think you’ve heard right through this hearing how we -- and very clearly, part of the work of our Diversity Inclusion Working Group is to identify how do we shine that lens and bring that lens to everything that we do in the newsrooms and in all our programming.

3784 But, Barb, why don’t you start onthat and then afterwards we’ll talk to Michel and his group?

3785 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So if I’m understanding, we’re going to speak specificallyabout news at the moment and we would have an opportunity to talk about the other kinds of programming after.

3786 So I honestly think the best thing I can do is hand to Susan who no doubt will share the conversation with Brodie. But Susan, in her role taking on the oversight of news, current affairs, and local, has fully embraced the number one priority to make sure that our content is reflective and inclusive. And, in fact, Susan inside the Corporation is quite famous for having championed this work for many, many, many years, so she comes with real expertise, and certainly, commitment.

3787 But let me just hand it to Susan.

3788 MS. MARJETTI: Thank you, Barb, and thank you, Commissioner.

3789 Honestly, I don’t know anything more important to any organization today and certainly the public broadcaster, well should be leading the way.

3790 I’ve been doing this for four decades -- four decades; making sure that this is a priority. That the inside looks like the outside; that we make it a priority in our hiring; that we make it a priority in our choices. And there is a training and development element, there’s no doubt about it, in terms of cultural intelligence and expanding the understandings within our, you know, truly diverse teams. But it’s still an ideas business and it matters in terms of that range or perspectives, right at the story meeting and editorial table. So, you know, hiring really would be job one.

3791 We’ve made it a priority in news and current affairs and local. Certainly, we were also aiming for 50 percent, not just at the leadership level but throughout all of our positions and we’ve exceeded -- we’ve exceeded that in the last nine months, you know, just one by one by one, being conscious and deliberate and strategic in everything we do, to make sure that the inside of this organization truly looks, sounds, feels, and exudes the essence of this country in all that richness and diversity.

3792 So, yes, hiring; hiring is about ideas and choices; there’s a training and development piece. Brodie spoke the other day to -- and Nicky mentioned earlier, putting all of our practices and standards through that lens of how to be more inclusive.

3793 And so that work, that conversation with over 60 of our employees, it’s happening right now around our JSP, journalistic standards and practices.

3794 We’ve just appointed Mandy Luk, who’s done, I think, fabulous training with a number of our reporters and programmers and editorial leaders. And Mandy is heading up this whole next phase of diversity and inclusion on the ground for news, current affairs, and local, and really making sure that we’re drilling down in terms of that next phase on the choices.

3795 You know, Mandy, I’ll never forget one of her courses she talked about, you know if you just -- we have to do the stories we have to do. If you just stay at an official level, you’re never going to reflect that changing face and voice of the country. You have to put the camera, the lens, the microphone on the people, and it’s when you get to the people and reaction in a lot of stories that you begin to reflect better the diversity, the true representation of this country.

3796 But it’s all of those things, and so much more. It is investing in our website Being Black in Canada, which is a television show but it’s also a centralized location where we put all of these incredible stories we do across the country.

3797 It is our Being Black on the Prairies special project, which we’re rolling out right now. You know, it’s talking about racial tensions in Ottawa Valley, it’s two powerful town halls we did in British Columbia and Alberta on systemic racism. It’s the 2018 Massey Lecture with Tanya Talaga, which I believe was one of the most powerful Massey Lectures we’ve ever done, in terms of the way forward for Indigenous peoples in this country.

3798 It’s all of those things; it’s choices. And those choices depend on who’s at the table. And so that is why that work is so key and core for us with -- starting with hiring.

3799 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So when you say choices, you’re really referring to choices in terms of which stories get told and who is telling the story or from what perspective they’re being shared?

3800 MS. MARJETTI: It is absolutely all of those things; correct, yes.

3801 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That’s great. And so I can see why it would be so important to find an adequate benchmark in order to gauge whether or not we’re meeting the kind of diversity that is able to make those kind of diverse and reflective choices.

3802 So thank you for that response, I really appreciate that.

3803 I was wondering if you could talk about some of the challenges that both CBC and SRC face when it comes to covering news with sensitivity.

3804 MS. TAIT: I think we’ll go straight to Brodie and then maybe Luce could also -- we haven’t heard from Radio-Canada, so Brodie and Luce?

3805 MR. FENLON: Hi, Commissioner, can you hear me?

3806 MS. TAIT: No, there's something wrong with your mic. You’re completely garbled.

3807 MR. FENLON: Oh, okay.

3808 MS. TAIT: So maybe we’ll go with Luce, and you can have a tech test. There's something definitely not working. Do a reboot, perhaps, Brodie.

3809 Luce, vas-y.

3810 Mme JULIEN: Oui, bonjour. Merci. Merci pour votre question, Madame la Conseillère.

3811 Ces questions-là sont vraiment importantes et fondamentales depuis toujours, mais c'est certain, et vous l’avez mentionné au début de votre intervention, c'est sûr que l’affaire George Floyd a, je dirais même, mené à des réflexions extrêmement importantes dans toutes les salles de nouvelles, bien sûr, du pays, mais du monde entier – beaucoup, beaucoup aux États-Unis –, j’ai beaucoup lu là-dessus cet été, tous les questionnements effectivement entourant la présence de journalistes issus de différentes communautés, tout le questionnement aussi entourant, bien sûr, le leadership dans les salles de nouvelles.

3812 Alors, ce sont des questions qui sont extrêmement importantes, qui nous préoccupent, mais je veux vous parler particulièrement aussi de l’importance de la couverture journalistique de ces enjeux-là parce que c’est là où je trouve que c’est absolument fondamental qu’on continue à couvrir tous les enjeux qui touchent l’ensemble des communautés.

3813 Peut-être un mot sur notre couverture, par exemple, des enjeux autochtones. Je crois qu’on a déjà évoqué le fait que nous avions dans l’équipe du Service de l’information de Radio-Canada, Espaces autochtones, qui couvre déjà plusieurs enjeux, plusieurs histoires aussi positives, mais au-delà d’Espaces autochtones, ça fait vraiment des années et des années que le service public… – et, pour moi, c'est fondamental d’ailleurs – que le service public qu’est Radio-Canada couvre les enjeux des diverses communautés autochtones. Je peux vous donner plusieurs exemples, la Commission Viens, par exemple, est issue d’un reportage d’Enquête, de l’émission Enquête sur les relations des policiers, notamment avec les communautés autochtones à Val-d’Or. On a tellement fait de reportages, j’en ai même des centaines de reportages, et on va continuer.

3814 Cela dit, est-ce qu’on peut encore s’améliorer? La réponse, c'est oui. Je pense que c’est fondamental qu’on s’améliorer, je pense que c’est extrêmement important aussi qu’on aille chercher le point de vue de nos journalistes issus de ces diverses communautés.

3815 Un exemple qui me vient qui était vraiment intéressant, une journaliste, Valérie Micaela-Bain – et ça m’a fait même réfléchir sur nous, notre processus aussi de recrutement – est allée à l’université, une université à Toronto, sur le recrutement des personnes noires en médecine, et c'était extrêmement intéressant.

3816 Donc, vraiment, on essaie de couvrir à la fois les enjeux, je dirais, de nouvelles qui… breaking news; pour moi, c’est extrêmement important qu’on continue. D’ailleurs, on a déployé, pour votre information, lors de l’affaire George Floyd, des équipes un peu partout aux États-Unis et on a fait aussi plusieurs reportages au Canada entourant aussi ces enjeux-là. Alors, pour vous dire que c’est une propriété.

3817 Est-ce qu’on peut faire encore mieux? C'est un peu… je vous dirais même, pendant les élections fédérales notamment, moi, j’en avais fait une priorité qu’on aille dans différentes communautés autochtones, mais aussi c’est toute la notion de terrain.

3818 Alors, on a vu au cours des dernières années comment les médias américains notamment ont été critiqués pour être déconnectés de certaines communautés, et on souhaite vraiment… puis je mets vraiment, vraiment beaucoup l’accent sur le fait qu’on doit faire énormément de terrain partout, issu de l’ensemble des communautés. Nous avons un grand pays, c’est un enjeu en soi en termes de couverture.

3819 Et juste pour vous dire aussi qu’on a un projet en ce moment qui est en cours où, d’ailleurs, on devait y aller cet automne – je pense je l’ai mentionné cette semaine –, je voulais que nos journalistes, notamment d’Espaces autochtones, s’installent pendant plusieurs semaines dans les communautés pour raconter des histoires, qu’on ne soit pas là justement… parce qu’à juste titre, on se fait critiquer parfois pour aller et venir, hein? Faire le breaking news, faire une histoire, puis on en sort et puis après ça on n’y retourne pas. Et malheureusement, à cause de la pandémie, on n’a pas pu le faire, mais on a en ce moment un projet dont je pourrai vous parler davantage, si vous voulez, et on souhaite le faire au cours des prochaines semaines.

3820 Alors, voilà. C'est vous dire à quel point… puis en 2020, ç’a toujours été une priorité, mais c’est une priorité plus que jamais, à la fois de refléter bien sûr dans notre personnel, mais de refléter aussi les enjeux qui touchent l’ensemble des communautés du pays.

3821 Je vous remercie.

3822 MS. TAIT: Brodie, is your mic now working? I hope. Brodie? He doesn’t -- yes? Is he there?

3823 MR. FENLON: Hi. Hello, Commissioner; can you hear me now? Okay.

3824 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes, I can hear you.

3825 MR. FENLON: I apologize for the technical error. And, a caveat, I missed part of the answer so I will try not to repeat.

3826 I think the question was; what are some of the challenges we face in terms of being inclusive in our coverage? And I think the ultimate challenge is to ask ourselves who’s not at the table; whose voices and perspectives are not here when we discus the stories we’re going to cover? And there’s a lot of work happening in that regard. You mentioned one of the blogs I wrote. I wrote another blog more recently which outlines some of the work, and you’ve heard a bit about it, including everything from a review of the JSP to our hiring and promotion practises which are so key, but other measures mentioned in that blog include the fact that we have more than a dozen of our teams across some our biggest news programs looking carefully at and analyzing what they do every day and seeing are we representative enough of the people in this country.

3827 You heard about Building Block in Canada. We launched a new show just this week, actually, and that shows mandate at 8:00 p.m. is called Canada Tonight. The host is Ginella Masa, and it is looking specifically at issues and stories that may not surface in the typical news day but are of importance to a racially-diverse country.

3828 So it percolates through everything that we are doing, and I hope that's a start. I'm sorry I missed the first part of the question.

3829 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It is. Is there anything else that the CBC and the SRC is doing to combat against stereotypes in the stories that it covers and airs, or was your last answer fairly complete?

3830 MR. FENLON: Yeah. You know, well -- listen, it is -- it's always about having those conversations. So I'm not sure if we talked about, for instance, the Inclusive Newsroom Project, which is a pilot that we launched in a couple of our newsrooms and plan to expand it. That project is about having honest real conversations about race whenever a story comes up, and it was a really positive project that we intend to expand.

3831 Sometimes things happen. You began your questioning mentioning something that had happened on our program, News Network. You cited this clip of a police car running into protesters. And it's a really great example of the world we're operating in. There were problems with the finessing and the language in the script, but there was also simply a technical error that happened in the control room as that clip ran, and a technician pulled the feed and -- but what we faced in -- within hours was that someone had packaged that and saw it as evidence of our bias and lack of inclusion.

3832 It wasn't really the case, but what it tells you is that we're in a world where we cannot afford mistakes, intentional or not, and the audience has no appetite for explanations of our intent. We just have to try to get it right every time.

3833 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Was there anything from SRC in relation to combatting stereotypes in the stories that they cover in addition to the last question, or shall I continue?

3834 MR. BISSONNETTE: Luce? Tu es sur mute.

3835 Mme JULIEN: Je suis désolée. Je suis désolée.

3836 Alors je vous dirais que c’est une préoccupation centrale dans tous nos, je vous dirais, nos reportages de lutter contre les stéréotypes et je vous dirais que ça fait partie même, bien sûr, du mandat que les journalistes ont de défendre en quelque sorte la justice sociale. Ça fait partie, bien sûr - je dis du mandat - pas de devenir des activités militants, mais on s’entend que tout ce qui est racisme, par exemple, tout ce qui est injuste sociale, pauvreté, c’est notre rôle comme chien de garde, d’une certaine façon, de faire surgir toutes les problématiques. Alors lutter contre les stéréotypes, oui, et je vous dirais ce qui est important aussi c’est durant, par exemple, des manifestations en direct, on a le souci aussi de faire attention aux extraits qui sont… aux entrevues qui sont faites, mais c’est vrai que tout ce qui est en direct parfois est peut-être un peu plus complexe. Alors voilà.

3837 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much for that. I had ---

3838 Mme JULIEN: Si je peux me permettre, Madame la commissaire? Désolée. Il y a mon collègue Jean-François Rioux des régions qui dirige le Centre de formation de Régina et le bureau autochtone mobile qui aurait des choses peut-être qui pourraient vous intéresser.

3839 M. RIOUX: Merci, Luce. Merci, Madame la conseillère.

3840 Écoutez, peut-être juste rapidement y aller parce que la présidente en a parlé et j’en ai parlé un tout petit peu moi aussi durant une de mes interventions. Le Centre de formation de Régina, qui a été créé pour aider les stations du ouest canadien à recruter des employés.

3841 Ceci dit, à partir de 2017, chaque cohorte devait absolument avoir un taux de participation de 50 pour-cent de gens issus de la diversité. Donc depuis 2017, chaque cohorte compte 50 pour-cent de candidats issus de la diversité. Et les résultats sont assez probants dans toutes les stations de l’ouest. Évidemment, il y a toujours un processus, hein? On rentre dans une entreprise et puis après ça on fait les étapes.

3842 Le processus qu’on est en train de développer avec ces centres de l’ouest nous permet de dire que dans des stations comme au Manitoba, par exemple, le quart des employés journalistiques sont issus de la diversité et évidemment, ultimement, ça se transpose en ondes.

3843 L’animation du matin, par exemple, au Manitoba, Patricia, qui est issue de la diversité, a une émission du matin; la même chose pour Elsie Nicholas qui est en Saskatchewan. Elles ont peu d’expérience; elles commencent, mais elles ont déjà des bonnes charges de travail. Je pourrais penser aussi à Alison Vicrobeck, qui est à Toronto qui anime le Retour à Toronto - s’il y a une ville multi-ethnique au Canada, c’est bien celle-là - qui représente exactement… elle vient de Toronto. Elle a grandi dans la ville.

3844 Et ça se retrouve aussi dans des stations comme Ottawa avec Alain Jean-Marie qui fait la météo; Tifa Bourjouane qui, à Québec, s’occupe des chroniques des médias sociaux.

3845 Donc, huit cohortes au cours des dernières années, 63 candidats et candidates qui sont restées à Radio-Canada et dont 50 pour-cent sont issus de la diversité.

3846 Alors le programme prend un certain temps et je dis avec beaucoup de fierté que lors de la dernière cohorte, nous avons accueilli nos deux premières candidates issues des Premières Nations qui travaillent maintenant pour le Bureau journalistique autochtone mobile à Trois-Rivières. Nous sommes très fiers de Tanya et de Véronique et ce qu’elles vont apporter aussi à la force journalistique de Radio-Canada.

3847 Alors voilà, c’est ça pour moi.

3848 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. So -- sorry.

3849 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

3850 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Go ahead.

3851 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. I wonder if I might actually ask Johnny Michel to speak to a couple of initiatives that I think address where you're going. I'm thinking of the Indigenous Junior J‑School that he has initiated. I'm thinking of the townhalls that happened in Vancouver and Calgary this past year that had enormous resonance with audiences, and Johnny may have other examples.

3852 But Johnny, can I pass it to you?

3853 MR. MICHEL: Of course. Thank you, Barb.

3854 And thank you for the question, Commissioner. Can you hear me okay?

3855 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes, I can.

3856 MR. MICHEL: Great. Thank you.

3857 COMMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3858 MR. MICHEL: Thank you. It's a pleasure to talk a little bit about maybe Indigenous Junior J‑School. Some context and background to that: This project really started because a lot of us in the West, as we were working on hiring, promoting, retaining Indigenous talent, we were having a hard time finding candidates that were going to journalism school, which is usually a place where we look for our interns to come and join our teams, UBC and SNU, and some of the other BCIPs, some other institutions that offer journalism. And we were having a hard time finding Indigenous students.

3859 And so we thought wouldn't it be interesting if we actually went back to the origin of perhaps the issue and address that at the level where kids that are still in high school in Grades 8 to 12 that are perhaps starting to think about postsecondary education, that would even -- they would even think and consider journalism as being a career choice. And with that in mind, we reached out to the Indigenous community and we put together a team, and we started looking at ways how we can take the message of journalism and what journalism does and the importance of journalism for democratic Canada, but also to be hearing Indigenous stories by Indigenous journalists on the CBC.

3860 And so we started that two years ago. The first year, we went into the Musqueam Reserve and we had about 65 students that attended. And the day was really constructed in terms of a Ted Talk type of setup where it was -- half the day was inspiration and the other day was perspiration. They get to hear from a lot of our Indigenous reporters, producers, and hosts about their experiences. The rest of the day was really hands-on in terms of being able to handle a camera and microphone, how to set up an interview and so on. And that worked out very, very, very well. It was just such a powerful experience to see these kids that came into the beginning of the day, they probably did not want to be there because maybe their parents pushed them to attend or the teachers told them there's something that you really need to attend. And the end -- by the end of the day, they just opened up, and they could see the possibilities and how they were connecting to each other and they were connecting to the possibility of journalism as a career.

3861 The second year we did that in our broadcast location in Vancouver, and we had 150 kids from across the province come and participate. And that was such a powerful day. And I get goosebumps just thinking about it, just to see the amazing energy that was there, and just the spirit of possibility that you could see within these kids.

3862 And some of them, if I look at the last year, some of them have actually -- I know of two or three that have actually now decided to pursue journalism as a career. I know a young kid called Jeremy Platt, for example, we are developing a podcast with right now called Pieces is about to launch in the next two months. Amazing stories that have come out of it. And some of them are thinking about coming to intern at CBC and to pursue other programming ideas.

3863 So, Anne, we were talking just before COVID hit, there was amazing enthusiasm across the corporation of taking this program nationally, and we were talking about going to, you know, five or six different cities and have Indigenous J School go into major cities and smaller cities across the CBC and have almost like a rolling show, so that we can take that nationally, and we will do that. Unfortunately, COVID got in the way and -- but the enthusiasm has not waned, and there were so many people across the corporation that said to me, "Hey, Johnny, yes, absolutely, I want to be part of this and let's make this happen." And we will make that happen because it's just the experience that we've had on the front end that we've done have been incredible.

3864 I'm sorry if I'm rambling.

3865 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: No, that's great.

3866 MR. MICHEL: But I just have incredible ---

3867 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It's great to hear.

3868 MR. MICHEL: --- I have incredible pride and enthusiasm for the work that we're doing.

3869 Barb also alluded to the fact that when the social awakening was going on, we responded with two town halls, one in Alberta, one in B.C. about confronting racism. And those were -- we talk about the bridge to the future, and I think part of the things that we don't talk about is all the possibilities that this bridge to the future allows us to connect with, the diversity of Canadians, and the possibilities of programming that we are able to produce, and we have access to, and be able to go live and on demand. And those two town halls that we did were incredibly powerful in terms of at least us having the conversation. And this is how we feel our role is, that we want to be the place where these conversations can be had, these conversations should take place, and there's no better place to have them than the public broadcaster.

3870 So, these are just a couple of the ways which we look at the privilege that we have, that Canadians give us to put it in a way to reflect the diversity of this country and talk about the issues that matter most, and hopefully, inspire others to come and join the mission that we're on. Thank you.

3871 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

3872 So what I've heard this morning is that there is an emphasis on having journalists and editors from diverse backgrounds as a way to ensure that reporting and programming is reflective of Canada's multiculturalism and that reporting is done in a respectful and non-stereotypical manner.

3873 That said, I just had one quick follow-up question, and I was wondering if there are similar training programs for other -- people from other backgrounds, other diverse backgrounds, something like was it the J School of Journalism or the -- yeah, the J School of Journalism. Is there something for other -- for youth that have an interest in journalism from the black community, or people of colour, or persons with disabilities, or from the LGBTQ community?

3874 MS. TAIT: Perhaps -- oops, there goes some -- Marco is just struggling with his microphone there. In the meantime, maybe we could just talk about some of the other initiatives. Luce, if you have -- no, she put her camera on. If not, the other -- the only other initiative I would say is we do do scholarship, but we just this -- some early -- I don't know, in September/October we launched a black journalism scholarship. I don't know, Barb, if you have the details at hand on that, but there are a number of issues across the company of this nature. Barb?

3875 MS. WILLIAMS: I think Marco's got them, and looks to me, from what I can see, like he's ready to go.

3876 MS. TAIT: Oh, is he back?

3877 MR. DUBÉ: No. No, go ahead. Go ahead, Barb.

3878 MS. WILLIAMS: And I don't have those details in my notes in front of me right now, but we certainly can make sure we get them for you.

3879 MS. TAIT: Oh, so, no, Claude is pointing to himself.

3880 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, then we should let Claude run with this one.

3881 MR. GALIPEAU: So on September 28^th of last year, we announced CBC/Radio-Canada partners with Canadian Journalism Foundation to launch new fellowships for black journalists, so we can provide details on that if you want, but it's on our corporate site in the CBC media centre.

3882 MS. TAIT: And I would just also add just on MAJ and mon actualité du jour and Kids News, we've been really, really deliberate about trying to ensure that those -- young journalists of the -- hopefully, they'll be journalists of the future, come from a wide range of backgrounds. And maybe Brodie or Luce want to speak to how we -- oh, and Nicky, one of you. Nicky, go for it.

3883 MR. DAVIS: Yeah, I just wanted to say too that on news, and this is with Brodie's team and some people from Brodie's team and from my office have also -- we meet monthly with the Canadian Association of Black Journalists and the Canadian Journalists of Colour, a, to share ideas, to share job openings, to share training opportunities, to share a whole bunch of -- on a different opportunities between the two groups. So that's an initiative that we just started probably -- we first met with them in August and we've been meeting with them every month since, just over the holidayS we haven't met, but we have our meeting scheduled for February, but we meet with them every month. And I think that's one of the things they're talking about too is how they can find ways in which we can make sure that more black journalists are aware of opportunities and how they can actually exploit those opportunities as well.

3884 But that's in conjunction with news, and so with Brodie's team we've been doing that for a while, and it's been very good so far.

3885 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Mr. Davis, can you please just repeat the names of the organisations that you meet with, that you had just mentioned?

3886 MR. DAVIS: The Canadian Association of Black Journalists ---

3887 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

3888 MR. DAVIS: --- the CABJ, and the Canadian Journalists of Colour, which is the CJOC.

3889 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

3890 MR. DAVIS: Yeah.

3891 M. BISSONNETTE: Et Madame la conseillère, j’inviterais Mme Meloul pour qu’elle puisse vous parler de mon actualité du jour, qui est l’information pour les jeunes et également les efforts qu’on a faits dans nos émissions jeunesse pour augmenter la diversité et tout de suite après, je vais demander à Madame Jamet de vous parler d’une initiative qu’on a auprès des personnes ayant un handicap à la radio. Dany?

3892 Mme MELOUL : Merci beaucoup, Michel.

3893 Madame la conseillère, quand on le disait hier, MAJ est une plateforme qu’on a mise en place il y a juste un peu plus d’un an. Nous avons 18 journalistes qui fait partie de cette cohorte-là, dont huit sont issus des groupes sous-représentés. À date, nous avons fait 150 vidéos, donc des reportages vidéo et une autre centaine de reportages écrits et ils ont été vus par 2,5 millions… il y a eu 2,5 millions de visionnements, disons-le de cette façon. Ce qui veut dire que non pas juste que c’est des histoires qui sont racontées par ces jeunes-là, mais elles sont déployées massivement et massivement par la population en général.

3894 En ce qui concerne la jeunesse, je vais d’abord vous parler de nos fameuses séries web dont on parlait sur Tou.tv. Alors, ces séries web, à 69 % nous avons des personnages et on raconte des histoires qui sont issus des groupes sous-représentés et en jeunesse, depuis les deux dernières années, nous avons un taux qui s’accroît au niveau de la diversité. 85 % de nos séries jeunesse ont des personnages issus des groupes sous-représentés et 50 % sont le rôle principal – donc, on déploie énormément d’efforts, particulièrement en jeunesse parce qu’encore une fois, ça commence avec la jeunesse, on veut les garder dans le système tout le long de leur vie et c’est quelque chose qu’on continue à faire de façon régulière.

3895 Alors, est-ce que… on n’est pas au summum, on n’a pas fait tout ce qu’on peut faire, mais on déploie des efforts considérables et on va continuer à le faire.

3896 M. BISSONNETTE: Caroline? Tu es sur mute, Caroline.

3897 Mme JAMET: Oui, pardon, merci Michel. Alors, il y a deux initiatives, rapidement, que je voulais mentionner. Vous avez parlé de communautés pardon, excusez-moi, qui ont en fait des communautés handicapées. En fait, nous avons un très beau projet que nous avons fait l’année dernière pour initier un groupe de jeunes à la radio.

3898 Alors nous les avons reçus pendant une semaine à ICI Première et à ICI Musique. Et ils ont compris en fait pendant une semaine comment ça se fait la radio, la magie de la radio. Comment à chaque jour ça se fait.

3899 Donc, ils ont parlé avec des réalisateurs. Ils ont animé. On a vraiment eu une semaine extraordinaire et ça nous a permis justement d’entrer en communication avec ces gens et ç’a été une expérience extraordinaire pour nous à la radio.

3900 Et peut-être aussi je voulais aussi mentionner on a fait un très beau projet qui s’appelle Bout du monde, l’année dernière, avec un groupe de jeunes qui a passé une semaine aussi avec nous pour enregistrer une pièce musicale de Rap et ils étaient justement à l’intérieur de Radio-Canada donc pour passer à la radio mais également passer du temps avec nos réalisateurs, comprendre ce métier-là pour justement ajouter peut-être l’intérêt de ces jeunes à notre diffuseur public. C’est quelque chose qui est important.

3901 Je vous remercie.

3902 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci. Et merci, Commissioner Anderson.

3903 This may be a good time to pause if you’ve reached the end of that section of your questions.

3904 Madam Secretary, could we break for lunch, returning at 1:15 Eastern time?

3905 MS. ROY: Perfect. Thank you; 1:15.

3906 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you everyone.

--- Upon recessing at 12:12/

L’audience est suspendue à 12 h 12

--- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m. /

L’audience est reprise à 13 h 20

3907 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci, Madame la Secrétaire. Bon après-midi. Good afternoon, everyone. We will resume.

3908 Commissioner Anderson, I believe you have more questions for the representatives from CBC/Radio Canada. Over to you.

3909 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I do. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3910 The next sub-section that I'm going to talk about relates to programming and defining relevant programming.

3911 So not only does programming have to be reflective of Canada's multi-cultural communities, but it really has to be relevant to those communities. And it appears as though, through its approach to cultural diversity, CBC and SRC have attempted to ensure that programming -- the programming it broadcasts addresses the needs and interests of Canada's diverse population.

3912 However, there are some interventions on the record that suggest that CBC and SRC could be doing a bit better of a job.

3913 How does CBC and SRC ensure that its programming is specifically relevant to the groups that it seeks to reflect? And when we talk about groups that it seeks to reflect, if you could refer to measures that the CBC/SRC takes with respect to women, indigenous people and Canadians identifying as LGBTQ, persons with disabilities and multi-cultural and ethnic populations, that would be great.

3914 Thank you.

3915 MS. TAIT: Thank you, Commissioner.

3916 As I said earlier, we take our broad range of programming mandate extremely seriously, and as we also stated, one of the pillars of our five-pillar strategic plan is reflecting contemporary Canada, which includes all of the groups that you have identified as well as others.

3917 So how do we ensure that those -- those under-represented groups are represented?

3918 I think you've heard on the news side -- I'm assuming we're talking here about the entertainment side of the business. And I will invite Barb and Michel to bring their teams on to talk about how we do it.

3919 And in terms of measurement as well, I'd just ask people to focus on the question or maybe Barb and Michel could focus on the measurement piece so that the Commissioner gets the information she's seeking.

3920 Thank you.

3921 M. BISSONNETTE: Merci, Madame la Conseillère. Cette question est vraiment fort intéressante, donc je vais prendre pour acquis que c’est au niveau du divertissement, donc, je vais donc inviter Madame Meloul pour vous parler de ce qu’on fait en télévision et Madame Jamet pour vous parler de ce qu’on fait en radio, et si vous souhaitez qu’on aborde ce qui est fait au niveau local, à ce moment-là je demanderais à M. Rioux de se joindre au groupe. Je suis conscient du temps, donc je vais demander à mes collègues d’être succincts dans leurs réponses pour qu’on puisse également laisser du temps d’antenne à CBC.

3922 Madame Meloul?

3923 Mme MELOUL: Merci, Michel.

3924 Madame la Conseillère, quand on traite de ces questions-là, on essaye de… je vous ai dit hier que c’est quelque chose qui nous anime et c’est des discussions constantes qu’on a à l’intérieur de la boite, donc on ne le fait pas juste de façon ponctuelle, on essaye autant que possible de dire il y aura des contenus qui seront propres à ces communautés sous-représentées, et je parle ici par exemple d’un documentaire comme Je m’appelle humain, qui est un documentaire qui parle de la poétesse Joséphine Bacon et qui a gagné le prix du meilleur documentaire canadien l’année dernière au Calgary Film Festival. Donc, il y a des contenus de cette nature-là qu’on essaye de développer et avoir de façon constante à travers nos grilles.

3925 Au-delà de ça, on parle aussi de comment est-ce qu’on peut avoir cette représentation à même des émissions de grand public parce que, pour nous, il nous semble que quand, dans En direct de l’univers, on a une Elisapie qui vient chanter et qu’elle est vue par un million de personnes, ça a un impact peut-être encore plus fort et pour la communauté qu’elle représente, mais aussi pour le public en général.

3926 Et le troisième point de ce qu’on essaye de faire, c’est de travailler beaucoup aussi derrière la caméra : qu’est-ce qu’on peut faire pour améliorer en termes des boites de production, des réalisateurs, des auteurs, comment est-ce qu’on peut s’assurer d’en avoir plus qui ont leur place chez Radio-Canada. Et je vous dirais que ce volet-là est probablement, du côté du marché de langue française, le volet qui est le plus difficile à développer, c’est quelque chose qu’on fait avec nos partenaires producteurs, mais… et avec des programmes, comme ma collègue Dorothy vous a mentionné, le programme Synergie, mais c’est ça qui va être de longue haleine et c’est ça qui va vraiment nous préoccuper au cours du prochain terme de la licence, parce que ça, il y a de la formation qui est rattachée à ça, et donc, ça prend un petit peu plus de temps à mettre en place.

3927 MS. WILLIAMS: Would you like me to pick it up from there?

3928 MR. BISSONNETTE: No, it should be Caroline Jamet, if she can unmute.

3929 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry' I can’t hear anything.

3930 M. BISSONNETTE: Caroline?

3931 MS. TAIT: Caroline is ---

3932 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

3933 Mme JAMET: Oui. Merci, Michel.

3934 Alors, nous avons, bien sûr, des objectifs d’avoir une radio qui est extrêmement inclusive et nous le faisons de plusieurs manières évidemment avec les animateurs. Nous avons d’ailleurs augmenté le nombre d’animateurs de la diversité au cours des dernières années. Avec le choix des collaborateurs, les sujets – par exemple, je… quand René-Homier Roy, par exemple, invite Marya Zarif pour parler d’un film, d’une série qui s’appelle Dounia sur une enfant syrienne, ça aussi c'est une façon de le faire –, donc par les sujets que nous décidons de traiter dans les émissions, par les experts également, et présentement nous avons un programme qui est mis en place pour justement augmenter… on fait du casting pour s’assurer d’avoir des experts de la diversité, par exemple lorsqu’on reçoit un nutritionniste, si on reçoit par exemple un chercheur, de s’assurer d’avoir cette diversité à même ces experts-là.

3935 On le fait évidemment en musique. Tout récemment, nous avions… nous avons mis l’accent sur des compositeurs de la diversité en musique classique, et aussi nous assurons dans nos évènements, cet automne et au printemps dernier comme exemples, quand nous faisons un évènement comme StudioFest où nous avons demandé à plusieurs artistes de faire des performances – étant donné la période COVID, vous savez c’est très difficile pour nous d’avoir des performances à Radio-Canada –, donc nous avons monté une très, très, très belle production qui s’appelle StudioFest et nous nous assurons, bien entendu, que la diversité fait partie de nos choix de programmes, de nos choix d’artistes invités dans ce genre d’activités.

3936 Et peut-être pour terminer, évidemment, sur OHdio, nous avons l’occasion d’avoir des rails qui sont thématiques, comme je vous ai expliqué hier, et nous faisons… en fait, nous mettons en valeur ces contenus de façon régulière. Nous avons des balados également qui portent sur ces sujets-là, et aussi des animateurs, par exemple l’animateur des Débrouillards, Massi Mahiou, qui et un bon exemple. Alors, nous avons cette diversité au niveau de nos animateurs également en audio numérique.

3937 Merci.

3938 M. BISSONNETTE: Et pour terminer, Madame la Commissaire, je pourrais peut-être rajouter quelques exemples.

3939 Évidemment, comme je le disais ce matin, ça passe beaucoup par l’animation, certaines émissions comme Le Matin à Winnipeg et Régina; l’après-midi, Le retour à Toronto, mais aussi à la télévision avec l’émission 100 % local qui était produite par Ottawa et qui est animée par Nicolas Ouellet. Aussi peut-être un exemple de documentaire, on a présenté dernièrement La rivière métissée qui soulignait le rapprochement de différents peuples à travers un personnage central qui était une ancienne avocate en droit international, qui était de descendance cherokee avec une descendance afro-américaine et une descendance acadienne – des histoires que seule Radio-Canada, je pense, peut raconter.

3940 Alors, ce sont à peu près des exemples de la direction dans laquelle on va.

3941 MS. TAIT: Barb?

3942 MS. WILLIAMS: Thanks, Catherine.

3943 I think there are three areas that we'd look at in this question and that speak to how we measure it.

3944 The first area is what's the representation on-screen and behind the camera. And that gets caught in the conversation we were having earlier about measuring the hiring and promotion and retention into senior roles within the CBC, and it speaks to the measurement we've committed to with our independent production communities to track those key performance and editorial roles in those shows.

3945 So we measure the hiring both in front of the camera and behind the camera.

3946 Second place we do it is to understand that the schedule overall leaves an impression of inclusivity or leaves and impression of not, whatever the upside of that is, because on a show-by‑by‑by‑show basis, you are not speaking to everyone at once, you're speaking maybe a little more with particular to this community or to that one. But overall, does the schedule present that the CBC is an inclusive place in its programming decisions? And that is measured by the perception studies overall.

3947 We can't really measure on a show-by‑show level per se. You need to step back and say, "Over the season, did the selection of shows and the scheduling and marketing of those shows give us a perception of inclusivity that the public can recognize when we ask them if we were inclusive?"

3948 And then the third area, I would say, which isn't precisely to measurement, but what Gem does for us is gives us this much broader platform to do many, many, many more pieces of content, which just gives us a much larger opportunity, frankly, to be more inclusive of more people and more communities and more storytellers, and more hiring, and more behind the scenes, and more on‑camera. It's just more. It's very hard to do all of that in one linear channel. Gem gives us such an opportunity to do so much more.

3949 So I don't know, Sally, if you want to add anything there. If any examples, Commissioner, would be helpful to you or whether that answers your question.

3950 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That leads perfectly into my next question, which is how does CBC and SRC measure success? What measurements does the CBC/SRC take -- undertake with respect to consumption, perception, and quality of programming at broadcasts across its platforms? So if you can get into that kind of measurement, a description of the measurement process that would be helpful. Or if there's any resources -- or in addition to that, if there are resources that you're able to share that would be even more helpful.

3951 MS. TAIT: I think we've referenced the public perception survey before, so I -- if -- I don't know if, Claude, you want to add anything more to that.

3952 MR. GALIPEAU: Thanks, Catherine.

3953 Madam Commissioner, yes, we reflect in our mission metrics on a regular basis reflection of regions, reflection of diversity and the like.

3954 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And just confirming, that's on the record or available.

3955 MS. TAIT: Did I -- was I on mute?

3956 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah.

3957 MS. TAIT: Sorry. I said they're in our annual report.

3958 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Oh, perfect.

3959 MS. TAIT: If I may on the measurement, and I -- I'm sure my colleagues are going "Oh, no, here she goes on the measurement thing." We have one of the most enviable research groups that sits at CBC Radio-Canada called the MTM Media Monitor Group, and they not only provide valuable information to us but to many people in the industry, including the Commission. And one of the things we do do throughout the year, is we look for opportunities to dig into other areas that we think could improve the way we're programming, or that would allow us to understand better our audience.

3960 So for example, I don't know if this is public record or not, but I think it should be fine, we are proceeding with a research study currently on the viewing habits and behaviours of new Canadians. Because this is such a growing population for us, that we need to understand better when different Canadians arrive what are their expectations and how do we introduce them to the public broadcaster.

3961 So that's just an example, and that we -- those are things that we do as we get to know our audience and we start to -- it's like the one that I mentioned about kids, just so that we know our audience as best we possibly can.

3962 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That's exactly the kind of response I was hoping to hear because I think it's really important that the programming meets the needs of all different kinds of Canadians, and so that kind of data I can see being tremendously valuable to your corporation, and it's helpful for us to know that you're taking these kind of steps in order to meet the needs of Canadians. So if there are any other metrics that are being used, it would be helpful to know. If there are any other segments of the population, typically marginalized groups that are -- that -- whose needs are being considered that would be great. If you're getting feedback from Indigenous Canadians, black Canadians, Canadians with disabilities on whether or not their needs are being met to programming, that's all very helpful for us to know.

3963 MS. TAIT: Thank you. Absolutely.

3964 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Was there any other metric or performance measure that you wanted to discuss?

3965 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think to your last point, we don't maybe put it in a bucket the way you just have, but we're in a constant feedback loop with our audience and with the creative community. And as I think has been mentioned a couple of times, our audience is not shy to tell us what's working for them and what isn't.

3966 And we get a ton feedback in our every ongoing audience relations, which we as executives get a report on every night, that reviews the highlights of what we heard from our audience, and what did we hear from them about our news, what did we hear from them about our radio, or what did we hear from them about our primetime and anything else that's on their minds. So as programming executives and leadership, we are reading that document every single day and talking about what we learn from it and how we might need to respond to it.

3967 We are also actively encouraging the communication with many of the groups. Sally, and her senior leadership over this past year has spent a fair bit of time with black producers, with other people of colour who are in the creative community and talked to them about what are the roadblocks in terms of getting your pitch heard at the CBC. What -- how do we need to respond differently in order to be sure we're getting the right collection of ideas in the door. And in fact, Sally's responded quite purposefully to that with a -- quite a significant change in her senior leadership and the decisionmakers that are at the table that are hearing pitches and developing and commissioning content.

3968 We don't tend to -- there isn't a useful way to sort of acknowledge all of those conversations on a day‑by‑day basis, but it's important that you know that that continuous conversation is happening. And we are taking that feedback all the time, and we're both asking for it and just receiving it whether we ask for it or not. We're having it regionally, we're having it with, you know, producers right across the country, small, medium, large.

3969 It is a really important piece of the measurement, even though I hesitate to suggest that there's any way to put a metric on it per se, but you should know the engagement with our audience and our creative community is significant and constant.

3970 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So you mentioned seeking information. Would that be in the form of quarterly surveys, monthly surveys? How often are you soliciting opinion from ---

3971 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, these aren't fill in the survey kinds of things. These are conversations. This is Sally and her team sitting down and meeting with producers. This is the kind of consultation Catherine referenced earlier that was happening through the working group of meeting with black journalists and people of colour across the community, inside and out of the CBC, to hear their concerns and their suggestions. This is ongoing conversations with our employee resource groups, our ERGs, about what's on their minds, what's concerning them. These are dialogues and I don't think easily captured, frankly, in a quarterly survey per se, but -- although, at some level it all rolls up to these perception surveys that we keep coming back to for the public.

3972 But the trust that is at the root of being able to have confidence that we're reflecting all these communities successfully, that trust is built by building relationships and having conversations and giving people the confidence that when they can come and talk to us that we will hear them and we will respond. And that's something that has to be worked at every single day, not done once a quarter or once a year or whatever.

3973 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay, thank you. So I was wondering if you could please comment on the imposition of a requirement, like a hypothetical imposition of a requirement that those types of measurements be taken, whether it would be a survey or a focus group or maybe diary-based data. In your view, would that be necessary?

3974 MS. TAIT: I would say that it doesn't reflect the reality of the business. I think that what Barb is trying to get at there is that it is a fluid, ongoing, you know, conversation that we're having with creators, with artists, with performers, with our own staff, and that ultimately, it's the public perception that we have been successful. That is the most relevant measure.

3975 Having said that, we did propose that with respect to the Indigenous creative community, that we would be interested in engaging in conversations on a more formal basis as -- and Bev will correct me if I've got this wrong, we did propose it I believe as a condition of license for this next license term to embark on more formal conversations and to be able to better reflect those communities and accelerate our efforts in that regard.

3976 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Is -- so short of the public perception surveys that you've referred to, are the results of any of these measurements made or reported to the public?

3977 MS. TAIT: Claude, do you -- no, I don't believe so. No, they're -- no.

3978 MR. GALIPEAU: Apart from the OLMC reports we do on an annual basis and which we file with the Commission every November, if I'm not mistaken.

3979 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And are any of the results of the measurements of the diverse groups presented to the Commission outside of the public perception surveys that are found in the annual reports?

3980 MS. TAIT: I think we've said that we file our -- the workforce numbers, and those are made public in our annual report. Actually, I believe we report on it on a quarterly basis. So, that's really the focus of that. In terms of entertainment programming, we have no formal measure as yet. We have indicated -- and again, I don't want to go off procedure, that we will be -- as we're looking forward, we will be measuring in-house and Commission programming, key leadership roles, and reporting to the Commission on those on a going-forward basis, but I may have gone off procedurally. Somebody correct me if I did that wrong.

3981 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I think I was just -- what I'm trying to get at is whether or not people from diverse background's needs are being met or reflected in the programming and thus from the employee or ---

3982 MS. TAIT: Well, I think that is the key measure. I mean, I think what we're trying to communicate, and maybe we're not being articulate, is ---

3983 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sure.

3984 MS. TAIT: --- that the best way to represent those interests is to reflect those people in our own workforce because ultimately, if an underrepresented group sees themselves -- and we hear this from young Canadians, you know, when they see themselves on the screen, they connect with their public broadcaster, and that's what we're trying to achieve.

3985 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that. Thank you for walking me through that.

3986 Okay. So my next question is programming for Indigenous people, whether it's broadcast on the radio, television or digital platforms, mainly addresses issues faced in northern Canada. Please describe how you address the issues that are relevant to Indigenous people that are not located in the north.

3987 MS. TAIT: I'm going to hand that off to the Indigenous -- maybe to Meagan Fiddler, or maybe I'll go to Barb and she can decide where to -- who to throw to. But I just be clear, we recognise absolutely that there are Indigenous people outside of the north, so that statement wasn't, in my mind, an accurate one. We work very hard to represent all Indigenous peoples across the country.

3988 And maybe, Meagan, you can talk a little bit more about how we do that in terms of reaching into different Indigenous communities.

3989 MS. FIDDLER: Yeah, thank you. I can definitely do that.

3990 I would actually argue that CBC Indigenous covers the lower portion of our country when it comes to Indigenous story. We have CBC North that we work collaboratively with and share their stories in our lineup. However, the reporters that we have working in our unit, there are six of them that go from coast to coast, and are connected to different communities, are all Indigenous, telling Indigenous story. And so, they are connected to their communities in their area, in their province, and they are telling those stories, you know, in the southern portion of the country.

3991 And the issues that they cover are varied, whether it's, you know, serious stories about connections to land and the fights for lands over rights and resources, but it's also about, you know, resilience and reclamation and all of those things. So, we cover a wide range of issues and, you know, look -- and look to our Indigenous communities to find out what those issues are and what we should be reporting on.

3992 M. BISSONNETTE: Et du côté de Radio-Canada, j’inviterais Jean-François Rioux, suivi d’Isabelle Picard, pour répondre rapidement à votre question.

3993 M. RIOUX: Bonjour – merci Michel, merci Madame la conseillère.

3994 Peut-être mentionner qu’au cours des dernières années, on est allés beaucoup par tranche…

3995 Mme ROY: M. Rioux, votre micro, s’il vous plaît. Oui.

3996 M. RIOUX: Merci, j’oublie toujours – je ne veux surtout pas me faire prendre à parler hors-propos.

3997 Donc, je me reprends, je m’excuse, Madame la conseillère, I am sorry. Donc, je disais, différentes tranches. Je vais essayer d’être quand même assez rapide, mais je vais vous donner un exemple de ce qui a été fait au cours des dernières années. Radio-Canada a été approché il y a trois ans par les Premières Nations au nord de Trois-Rivières, de la Mauricie, pour qu’on revoie la distribution des émetteurs qui programmaient essentiellement en Cri et en anglais, alors que ce sont les Attikameks. Et donc, ce qu’ils demandaient, c’est d’avoir la programmation de la station de la Mauricie, qui est beaucoup plus proche d’eux et qui était beaucoup plus près de leur réalité au niveau de la vie quotidienne. Ça, c’est un exemple que je peux vous donner.

3998 Dorothy Alexandre en a parlé un tout petit peu plus tôt, du programme Synergie de formation. Nous avons déployé des équipes – entre autres, l’équipe du matin à Québec – qui est allée donner de la formation aux gens de la SOCAM, qui est la Société de communication Attikamek-Montagnaise pour les aider à… comment je pourrais dire, à améliorer leur expertise et leurs outils de travail au niveau de la communication, dans l’animation des émissions, la construction des émissions et l’engagement qu’ils pouvaient avoir et le rapprochement et surtout peut-être des nouvelles techniques un petit peu plus modernes.

3999 Évidemment, il y a tout le côté, je vous dirais aussi, du documentaire. On en a fait plusieurs, je vous ai parlé plus tôt d’Une rivière métissée, je pourrais vous parler aussi de L’aigle et le condor, qui racontait un rassemblement de peuples autochtones en France alors que des membres des Premières Nations du Haut Lac St-Jean s’étaient rendus en France justement pour célébrer cette réunion des peuples autochtones.

4000 Donc, on le fait de différentes façons; ça passe par le programme, ça passe par la formation et ça passe parfois par des histoires ou des moyens aussi techniques que de rediriger un émetteur pour mieux desservir une communauté qui ne se trouvait pas desservie à ce moment-là.

4001 J’espère que ça répond un peu à votre question.

4002 M. BISSONNETTE: Merci Jean-François. Isabelle?

4003 Mme PICARD: Merci. Alors, j’ajouterais évidemment Espaces Autochtones; on en a déjà parlé cette semaine, qui est un site web, un site numérique en fait qui vise à donner de l’information autochtone du Canada au complet, du Québec en particulier bien sûr. Et évidemment, il y a des interactions avec CBC Indigenious et avec CBC North où on va souvent reprendre et traduire des articles, donc on va couvrir l’ensemble du Canada et non seulement les spécialités ou les spécificités du sud du Canada ou encore du Québec.

4004 Il y a évidemment le Bureau autochtone mobile, également, dont on parlait, qui est un bureau qui est plus terrain. Donc, c’est un bureau qui est basé à Trois-Rivières, Jean-François en a déjà parlé cette semaine, mais qui va faire en sorte que les journalistes autochtones vont – là, c’est un peu plus difficile en ce temps de pandémie – mais vont à terme se déplacer dans les communautés autochtones et donc, ramener l’actualité et les réalités autochtones, que ce soit au niveau du web, de l’info, de la radio ou des téléjournaux au besoin.

4005 Évidemment, on va amener des enjeux variés dans ces deux plateformes-là; des enjeux d’actualité bien sûr, mais aussi des initiatives positives et ça, je pense que c’est important de le mentionner. On parlait tout à l’heure d’une meilleure sensibilité et de contrer des préjugés; bien, ça passe aussi par ça, faire connaître des initiatives positives, des projets positifs, des réalités positives des Premières Nations.

4006 Et également, juste mentionner la formation reportage en milieu autochtone, qui est une formation toute nouvelle à Radio-Canada qui vise à mieux outiller les journalistes qui ne sont pas autochtones, justement, aux réalités autochtones et à comment mieux couvrir finalement l’actualité en milieu autochtone.

4007 Merci.

4008 MS. TAIT: If I may add one thought, Commissioner.

4009 You’ve heard a lot of great examples and one of the things that’s important, I think, for the Commission to understand is we don’t treat our Indigenous programming or initiatives in a kind of a single silo.

4010 We have Indigenous employees that work across the Company, and I just think of Duncan McCue in Cross Country Checkup, or all sorts of examples. So it’s not just a kind of a single, to use the term “swim lane”. We really integrate that talent in all parts of the Company.

4011 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes, I think that’s really important. That’s a very important point to make. Thank you.

4012 I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about programming in Indigenous languages. I understand, based on your submissions, that there already is quite a bit of programming that is broadcast in Indigenous languages. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on the different types of programming that is currently offered in Indigenous languages by platform and on both, CBC and SRC?

4013 MS. TAIT: Okay, maybe we’ll start with Merv, in the -- Mervin, in the North -- not to be too familiar. And then maybe to Radio-Canada to talk about Indigenous language programming.

4014 MR. BRASS: Thank you, Catherine. Thank you, Commissioner Anderson, for that question.

4015 Indigenous languages is quite important to myself. Earlier in the hearings, I started talking telling the story about my personal background. And I needed to put that into context because I have a commitment to Indigenous languages.

4016 As somebody who has lost the language, I feel it’s really important that we support and grow Indigenous languages, in particular, in the North because that’s where they are the strongest, especially in the Northwest Territories and in Nunavut.

4017 In Nunavut, we have probably about 90 percent of our staff are Inuktitut, and they speak Inuktitut. We have strong programming there in the Inuktitut language. Our suppertime news Igalaaq is in Inuktitut. All the reporters that report there speak Inuktitut.

4018 If we do have an English story that goes there, it is versioned by an Inuktitut speaker. So we offer that -- their radio programs in Iqaluit are in Inuktitut and in some English.

4019 In the Northwest Territories, our language programming starts in the morning at 8:00 a.m. We have Gwich’in, Inuvialuit, North Slavey, South Slavey, Tlicho, and Chipewyan is our newscast in the morning.

4020 And then in the afternoon, right after our noon show, starting at 1:00 p.m. Mountain time, we start our afternoon Indigenous language programming. And again, in those same languages.

4021 So that’s what we do in the North for language programming. In addition, we have now started doing podcasting. We released a podcast this fall, in October, a Inuktitut podcast. And we have a podcast planned for this coming year that we are going to start working on now as we speak. We have -- one of our podcasts -- one of our language announcers, Leitha Kochon, is working on an idea, and we hope to have that launched sometime later this year.

4022 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is The programming that you’ve just referred to in the afternoons, then specifically geared towards language training or are we talking about news programming?

4023 MR. BRASS: It’s current affairs. How that develops is we have a story meeting in the mornings with our language announcers and then with our news desk. And the language announcers give an update during that meeting of what is going on in the various communities, what their sources and their community reporters are telling them.

4024 And then they decide what they’re going to try to cover for that afternoon in their show. And they have that meeting every morning.

4025 So it is really community focused, and it’s in the language. The people that appear on the show are fluent speakers.

4026 In preparation for our aging broadcasters, we are actively searching and training for future broadcasters. We just posted a job for a language producer, who will help develop the show and also develop future broadcasters.

4027 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

4028 Do you have the -- sorry, go ahead.

4029 MR. BISSONNETTE: No, it depends if you are more asking about CBC, I will let Mervin answer, but if you want to know about Radio-Canada, I will jump in.

4030 CONSEILLÈRE ANDERSON: Please go ahead. Please go ahead.

4031 M. BISSONNETTE: J’inviterais Isabelle Picard à répondre à votre question, Madame la conseillère.

4032 Mme PICARD: Merci beaucoup, Michel.

4033 Alors présentement, à Radio-Canada, il n’y a pas d’initiative en langue autochtone. Par contre, comme madame Tait le mentionnait en début des audiences, nous visons, Robert Doane et moi, à faire une stratégie nationale autochtone à travers des consultations. Et nous croyons que ces consultations-là vont venir préciser les attentes et les besoins des peuples autochtones qui ont le français comme langue maternelle ou comme langue seconde; et donc établir certaines activités à ce niveau-là.

4034 Merci.

4035 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

4036 MR. BRASS: Madam Commissioner, if I can add also, we have a Cree language programming in the Province of Québec. We have a Cree unit there that offers a current affairs television show and also radio programming in the Cree language.

4037 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

4038 So this is another question for both, CBC and SRC in this vein. And my question is, what does the language programming represent, for example, either percentage or in hours, in the overall Indigenous programming by platform for both, CBC and SRC?

4039 MS. TAIT: Do we have that information handy or is that something we should take as an undertaking?

4040 I’m not sure that people have the number of hours by platform at this point.

4041 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It’s a pretty specific question.

4042 MS. TAIT: Yes, I know.

4043 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: An undertaking would be great if it’s not handy.

4044 MS. TAIT: I certainly don’t have it in front of me, but Barb, do you have anything?

4045 MS. WILLIAMS: My guess is Mervin could do a pretty good guess at it, but don’t feel obliged, Mervin. We can be specific.

4046 MR. BRASS: Yes, I would prefer if we had some time to gather that information and we could get that for you.

4047 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Much appreciated.

4048 And with SRC, would the answer be the same as well?

4049 MR. BISSONNETTE: Absolutely.

4050 CONSEILLÈRE ANDERSON: O.k., merci beaucoup.

4051 UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

4052 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: There was a question about -- how has programming in Indigenous languages evolved over the course of the actual licence term and what is the plan of the Corporation in this regard for the next licence term? Is it to increase or decrease language programming and Indigenous languages?

4053 MS. TAIT: Maybe Mervin, before you start, I will just give a little bit of history of what we’ve been doing.

4054 And I’m just trying to think, it’s five years this December or this past December that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission tabled its Report, and that provoked a lot of change across the country but specifically at the Public Broadcaster.

4055 We have been in the business at CBC North for a very long time in Indigenous languages. But what the Truth and Reconciliation Report recommended was what can we do more, not just CBC/Radio-Canada but what Canada can do more?

4056 And so we put into action the focus on the Indigenous unit and I would say across the entire Company, took steps to do more of everything.

4057 Specifically, though, I would say would be when we received the increase or the -- yes, increase in our budget, it was to make up for the cut but -- we earmarked dollars specifically for the Indigenous Archive Project, Indigenous Language Archive Project that Mervin has described to you. The 60,000 pieces of content or stories gathered up in our vast library in the North.

4058 And that would probably be the single most in-depth and important language, if your focus is on language, Indigenous language project in the Company. And it is a point of enormous pride. And as he said, I believe we have another year on that to complete digitization of that project.

4059 So to your question about looking ahead, specifically, as Isabelle Picard pointed out, she and her new colleague at CBC, Robert Doane, will be working together on articulating the public broadcaster's Indigenous strategy. We felt very strongly. I will never forget -- so when I -- so when Barb joined, we started talking about an Indigenous strategy, and Nicky and company said, "Well, this should be led by Indigenous employees." And so that was -- in response to that we found -- we were lucky enough to find Isabelle, and then more recently Robert, and the two, they will be the specialists and the advisors and taking us through that process, which will include extensive conversations and engagement with Indigenous-owned broadcasters, Indigenous-owned production companies, and creators and stakeholders from those various communities, and we hope to be able to deliver on that. As you know, consultations of any sort take time. I don't want to be promising within this -- certainly not this fiscal year, but hopefully before the end of the next one.

4060 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how that progresses. That's a very exciting initiative, for sure.

4061 My next question relates to third-language programming in general and I was wondering if you could please remind me if you offer third-language programming and whether or not you've got the capacity to do so.

4062 MS. TAIT: With respect to third-language programming, you know, CBC/Radio-Canada, it's not determined in its mandate, with the exception of ICI, Radio-Canada International. And I think you heard from Luce earlier this week on what that service does, but really, most of that activity of third-language programming is left to the multicultural, multiethnic broadcasters.

4063 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And the last licence renewal, CBC-SRC developed a plan -- sorry, planned to develop a strategy to ensure that its radio television and online services meets the needs of Indigenous people. Could you please discuss the outcome of that plan?

4064 MS. TAIT: Bev, you got to help me there. Last licence there was a commitment to a plan? Because we're just -- as I just described, we're embarking on an Indigenous strategy, so I'm not sure what the scope of that particular plan was. Perhaps somebody could advise.

4065 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Yeah, so that was a discussion at our last licence renewal proceeding. As a regulatory person, I'm not privy to those details, but I think that what we're talking about, or what Catherine is talking about is a going-forward approach and separate, so I don't have an answer to your question. And if it's something that you would like an answer for, we would have to get back to you.

4066 MS. TAIT: I can only -- if I may, I can only imagine what that plan said, and it probably is reflected in all the things I just described to you, the expansion of the Indigenous unit, the establishment of the archive. I mean, we have made -- and the commitment to increase employment. So, I would assume, I can't -- I don't -- I wasn't there, so I don't know, but we'll check it, and we'll double check against what I've just said to make sure that I have not gone astray. But I have a feeling it was probably a statement of increasing and stepping up our efforts.

4067 And I should mention, of course I've forgotten the one very important piece which is in the programming that we do, entertainment programming that we do, a show like Trickster came out of all of that thinking about we need to find property -- intellectual property that is owned by Indigenous and created by Indigenous people and bring those stories to life. So, that would have been an example of that commitment.

4068 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right. And if there are any other examples after a review of the plan, if you can find any other examples of ways that you've met or exceeded the plan, we're always interested to know because I think that that is an area that CBC could take great pride in.

4069 MS. WILLIAMS: And if you like, without knowing the specifics of what was in that plan, I know that Sally and her team have, you know, made some real efforts to be much more inclusive of Indigenous creators and voices and owned production companies, and Sally could give some other examples now of how more broadly we are working to be more inclusive, if you'd like to hear those now.

4070 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Please, yeah, that would be great.

4071 MS. WILLIAMS: Sally?

4072 MS. CATTO: Great, thanks.

4073 Well, just to take it a step back because it's really hearing you when you were talking about how are we relevant to the people we're trying to reach, because it's one thing to say we're going to do this kind of programming or this kind of programming, but, you know, are we actually connecting to the people we're intending to connect to.

4074 And I just can't stress enough how important that is to us and how seriously we take that, and we know we have a platform -- many platforms that reach across the country. And I think our priority is to give our platforms to authentic voices. So, because it is only in those authentic voices that we really know we will best reach the intended audience.

4075 So, you know, right now, and a lot has been said about decision makers and how we need to have more decision makers that truly reflect the country. Barb has said -- as Barb has noted, we are working very hard on that and making imminent changes in certain departments. But I think that, you know, when it comes to Indigenous programming, you know, we really have I feel benefitted from the support and relationship with the ISO. I think that we have gone to them for guidance, we've gone to them for support. They've been fantastic. And, you know, we had a representative from the ISO come in and speak to not only our creative executives, but our business executives, our marketing executives about the Indigenous pathways and protocols, so we could really better understand how to commission properly in a way that really honours and reflects the community.

4076 Just one quick example, you know, when -- following that, and hearing so strongly how it is so important not just to work with Indigenous creators but how important it is to support Indigenous production companies, and that 51 percent ownership is really important, when we commissioned -- hearing that, when we commissioner our series Bones of Crows, which has not aired yet, but has been greenlit, it was not brought in by an Indigenous producer, but we made it, as a condition of greenlight, the requirement that in order to move forward, it would have to be 51 percent Indigenous owned.

4077 So we are listening, we are adjusting, we are taking, as I said, that very, very seriously. And I did want to take the opportunity -- I won't go over our scripted and unscripted, but we do reflect, I believe, Indigenous people across the country in ways that might not immediately come to mind. Like, our support of the Inspire awards, which honour and shine a light on Indigenous talent from across the country, or our sports team in the North American Indigenous Games. You know, there's so many different ways that we reach out on our so may different platforms. Even our CBC books team is now getting into the audio game, and we're very excited about a program, they are doing a 10-episode series with Rosanna Deerchild, which really goes over the last 150 years of Canadian history through Indigenous creators' perspectives.

4078 So, you know, I will stop. I could go on if you would like more, but it was just really important to me that ---

4079 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: No, that's good.

4080 MS. CATTO: --- that you know that we do understand that it is our platform that we are privileged to be working with and we have to hand that platform over to authentic voices.

4081 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah. No, it's great. I love hearing Ayden Robinson's voice on my radio on such a regular basis.

4082 MS CATTO: Yeah.

4083 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: She seems to always be on the CBC. It's fantastic.

4084 MS. TAIT: Excuse me, Commissioner, I believe Bev has dug up the ---

4085 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Oh, oh, perfect.

4086 MS. TAIT: --- the plan so ---

4087 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So thank you for reminding me about -- and to put in context, about the last licence renewal that took place in 2012 and what we said, and I just had a blank, and I've pulled up the decision, and thank goodness there's paper because now I remember, so I wanted to put it context, and maybe it helps understand -- puts in context your initial questions in talking about Indigenous and just the North, and not broader.

4088 So at our last licence renewal hearing we had said, since this is back in 2012, that we had just concluded a study to determine media use by Indigenous people. So that’s a study that is very old that must exist somewhere, and that we were going to be developing an Indigenous study that was -- Indigenous strategy that was based on this research so that the -- so that our service could meet the needs of the people in the North.

4089 So now I understand how the question’s beginning started off just looking at the North. So I think what you’re hearing is over the course of the licence term, well, media consumption has changed, the strategy has been not just about the North and not just about Indigenous language programming, and it’s evolved, and it’s further evolving.

4090 So I just wanted to correct the record on that.

4091 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that. And I will ask some questions on access to programming because, you’re right, the method that people are consuming media is changing.

4092 In light of your current plans on diversity and inclusion, particularly as it relates to programming, do you have similar plans with respect to Canada’s multicultural and ethnic communities? Is there a kind of strategy in terms of meeting the needs of those communities?

4093 MS. TAIT: Well, I think I mentioned that we are looking at conducting this research around new Canadians, which would touch on that somewhat. And, again, as we go forward, and I think you heard probably several examples over the last few days of how we reach into communities, and probably The 410 was the best example of all of a South Asian community in Brampton.

4094 We are -- again, we -- it’s not just a question of trust; it’s a question of the filter that -- the Public Service filter that we apply to all our programming decisions. And so I would say that on -- in terms of multicultural or multi-ethnic decision-making, the same applies when we talk about diversity and inclusion. It’s the same set of measures. We don’t treat it as a separate piece.

4095 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Yeah, I understand.

4096 Let’s move on to the last -- I’ve got a couple more questions, but one of the questions is about television programming in the North being done via one television station, and that’s based out of Yellowknife. How does the approach of having one service adequately meet the needs of the North? How do you assess the technological needs of communities and match them to the resources -- match that to the resources you devote to serving them?

4097 MS. TAIT: Mervin, are you comfortable answering that question? Okay. Off you go.

4098 MR. BRASS: We have two TV shows, of course, one is in Inuktitut, Igalaaq, the host -- the show comes out of Iqaluit. And our other show, Northbeat, is English, and that comes out of Yellowknife. We have one production team where the master control is in Yellowknife. So the show originates in Iqaluit, it’s sent to Yellowknife, and then from Yellowknife it’s sent to Toronto and then it hits our communities. It’s -- you know, technically that’s the way it’s run.

4099 Newsgathering and community gathering originates in Nunavut for Igalaaq. Our reporters are based in Iqaluit and they serve -- make it to the communities there and then they bring those programming there.

4100 Is that what you’re looking for, Madam Commissioner?

4101 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes. I mean, I’d imagine it’s pretty challenging to serve the needs of all northerners because we’re talking about a very vast geographic area but that’s -- it’s not -- yeah, I imagine it’s challenging, but it’s interesting to know that you are getting programming from different regions within the North. So, yeah, that does answer what I was asking.

4102 I note that there is no definition of Indigenous music or emerging Indigenous artist. How do you define these concepts internally and how do these definitions come into play when selecting music for your various services?

4103 MS. TAIT: I see both Barb and Michel leaning forward so Michel, est-ce que tu veux commencer ?

4104 M. BISSONNETTE : Bien sûr, bien j’inviterais Caroline à répondre à votre question, Madame la conseillère.

4105 Mme JAMET : Vous m’entendez ?

4106 M. BISSONNETTE : Oui.

4107 Mme JAMET : Oui alors nous avons, à l’antenne d’ICI Musique et sur OHdio, plusieurs artistes autochtones qui sont présents. Nous avons également des émissions qui, en fait, mettent en valeur également. Je pense par exemple à Philippe Fehmiu, qui présente des artistes autochtones à chaque semaine. Au StudioFest également, nous avions des artistes autochtones. Je ne sais pas si vous avez aussi… Ça me donne l’occasion de vous parler de l’émission La chaîne musicale.

4108 Nous avons eu vraiment le bonheur d’avoir Elisapie, qui pendant quatre semaines, a présenté deux heures de radio tous les dimanches. Donc nous présentons ces artistes de façon régulière. Nous avons, cette année seulement, 15 albums en écoute intégrale, qui sont des albums qui proviennent des communautés autochtones. Alors c’est une offre musicale qui est extrêmement riche et nous la présentons à l’antenne bien évidemment. Et récemment, même en musique classique, parce qu’il y a aussi en musique classique, des artistes autochtones qui sont présents. Nous avons eu d’ailleurs le bonheur d’avoir la chanteuse mohawk Donna Kanerahtenha Jacobs, qui a participé à notre formidable concert de Noël.

4109 Alors par rapport à la définition, je… Peut-être que, en fait c’est un point important que vous soulevez, parce qu’il y a peu d’artistes autochtones qui chantent en français, ils chantent dans leur langue et souvent ils chantent dans leur langue et aussi en anglais. Et vous avez raison, nos conditions sont particulières par rapport à la langue vocale anglaise. Et peut-être que je pourrais, par rapport à la définition, passer la parole à ma collègue Anne-Marie ? Ou Bev ?

4110 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So it’s Bev; I’m actually just going to jump in.

4111 I think the question was; given that there is no definition how do we determine when it’s something -- an individual is an emerging artist or an Indigenous artist. Is that your question?

4112 I think you’re on mute, Commissioner Anderson.

4113 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes, the question is there is no definition of Indigenous music or emerging Indigenous artist, and so how are these concepts defined internally?

4114 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I have a go?

4115 MS. TAIT: Please.

4116 MS. WILLIAMS: It’s interesting because we were having this exact conversation a couple of weeks ago. It’s a complicated one and an important one, and a conversation around self-identificationthat is increasingly part of our ongoing conversation, as you can imagine.

4117 So I am going to start with Sally here, and Sally may want to include Susan’s voice because Susan managed that decision, if you will, for many years before our restructure recently that handed Reclaimed -- as an example of Indigenous music, handed Reclaimed to Sally.

4118 So, Sally, maybe you want to start but if Susan can be of help, don’t hesitate.

4119 MS. CATTO: Thanks, Barb. And I will definitely call on Susan perhaps to give some more of the historical way that we have defined it and made those decisions. You know, because, really, it’s a subjective decision right now. We have curators who, you know, are selecting our playlists and selecting our music and, you know, I -- in terms of being more precise than that, I will defer to Susan on that.

4120 What I would also like to say, though, is that we do recognize that the Commission is undergoing a review of the Indigenous broadcasting regime and we concur, agree with one of our intervenors, APTN, that once the definitions have been decided upon, that we should absolutely abide by those definitions, once that review is done and those definitions have been agreed upon.

4121 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Great. Thank you for that.

4122 I’m going to shift focus and talk about engaging and working with producers and other stakeholders. And so my first question is how does the CBC seek out independent producers of content that is designed to be relevant to Indigenous people, Canadians identifying as LGBTQ, women, multicultural, and ethnic Canadians, and persons with disabilities?

4123 MS. TAIT: I assume that's not just a question for CBC but for also for Radio-Canada. So -- because they ---

4124 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That's for both.

4125 MS. TAIT: They do it too.

4126 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: For both. And I think that yesterday somebody had mentioned like working with APTN as an example. So yeah, I'd be interested to know.

4127 MS. TAIT: All right. I'm assuming that we go straight to Sally on that one, and then to Dany Meloul, just to cut in through all the bodies.

4128 Sally? She -- there she is.

4129 MS. CATTO: Just so I'm entirely clear and I don't overshoot in my answer, can you -- I just want to make I'm clear on the scope of the question, Commissioner. Would you repeat exactly what you're looking for?

4130 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: How does the CBC and SRC seek out independent producers of content that is designed to be relevant to the diverse groups of Canada that we've been speaking about? And specifically, what measures does it take to engage with producers from these communities?

4131 MS. CATTO: Thank you so much. We are in regular dialogue with producers from across the country. I have already referred to the ongoing dialogue we have with the ISO through supportive festivals like the Imaginative Film Festival in the past, and you know, definitely participating in as many conferences, festivals, panels, conversations.

4132 You know, it's really our development and production executives, that is the essence of what they do. They are spending their time reaching out and connecting with producers from across the country. So it's kind of a key part of our daily jobs.

4133 As Catherine mentioned or you mentioned, we also are working with APTN. We reach out to kind of different organizations that we can partner with, always seeking to really learn who the new talent is. We've -- I won't go over them all, but we do have many initiatives that support new talent and new creators. I think that's of greatest interest to us.

4134 M. BISSONNETTE: Et du côté de Radio-Canada, Madame la conseillère, je vais demander à Dorothy et peut-être Isabelle, si elle en sent le besoin, de venir vous parler du programme Synergie, qui permet aux gens issus de la diversité de faire leur place dans les maisons de production.

4135 Dorothy?

4136 MS. TAIT: You're on mute, Dorothy.

4137 Mme ALEXANDRE: Oui, merci beaucoup. Merci, Michel. Merci, Madame la commissaire.

4138 Donc oui, le projet Synergie est une initiative qui est née autour de l’année 2019, donc la première année, dans le but justement de créer des ponts entre les créateurs et les créatrices qui sont issus des groupes sous-représentés et les personnes qui prennent des décisions au niveau du contenu, que ce soit à l’interne, à Radio-Canada et bien sûr au niveau des producteurs indépendants plus spécifiquement.

4139 Donc la deuxième édition, qui a eu lieu en janvier 2020, a réuni une soixantaine de ses créateurs/créatrices qui travaillent dans les postes-clés de création. Donc on parle, bien sûr, de ce qui a trait à la scénarisation, la réalisation et la production.

4140 Et le but était de quoi? C’était de relier des réseaux, parce que là où bas blesse, ici même au Québec - ici on parle du Québec, mais à travers le pays - c’est le fait que les producteurs indépendants recherchent davantage de membres issus des groupes sous-représentés, donc on a pu créer des ponts et à l’issue de cette initiative-là, il y a six pages qui avaient été approuvées dans ces postes-clés. Par contre, en raison de la pandémie, il n’y a que deux stages présentement qui sont en cours au sein de quand même deux grandes boites de production. Un troisième stage doit être lancé en 2021, donc plus tard, dans quelques semaines.

4141 Ceci étant dit, j’ai également rencontré… donc, c’est moi qui chapeaute ce projet-là… et j’ai également rencontré, lors de la consultation publique des Producteurs indépendants de l’Ontario, des producteurs qui sont intéressés à stimuler, donc à lancer ce projet-là à travers le pays. Donc, dans ce cadre-là, je vais, entre autres, discuter avec l’Association des producteurs francophones du Canada, donc Carol Ann Pilon, qui est en est la directrice générale, pour voir comment on peut multiplier cette initiative-là à travers le pays.

4142 Donc je vous dirais qu’un des grands éléments, en conclusion, qui ressort de cette initiative c’est le fait que les gens sont contents d’avoir une personne à l’interne avec qui parler de Radio-Canada, une personne de confiance et surtout de mieux comprendre les codes, quels sont les prérequis pour pouvoir percer dans cette industrie et surtout c’est de leur donner cette confiance, de leur dire, « Vous avez également votre place dans l’industrie, dans cet écosystème. » Et nous, notre but est de bâtir cet écosystème pour qu’ils soient vraiment le reflet de notre Québec et de notre Canada multiculturel.

4143 Je vais m’en tenir à ça, mais si vous avez d’autres questions, je vais bien sûr y répondre.

4144 Merci.

4145 M. BISSONNETTE: Avais-tu quelque chose à ajouter, Isabelle?

4146 Mme PICARD: Oui, juste pour ajouter, pour une petite particularité ou une spécificité autochtone, en fait, ce qu’on a fait c’est qu’on a répertorié neuf maisons de production autochtone qui travaillent en français, donc, pour Radio-Canada.

4147 On a aussi, cet automne, dressé une liste de tous les réalisateurs, les scénaristes, les producteurs, les animateurs autochtones, donc pour les faire connaitre à l’interne dans tous les secteurs de Radio-Canada, pour faire connaitre tous ces talents.

4148 Également, on a des initiatives comme une nouvelle initiative d’appel à projets autochtones pour des balados autochtones depuis cet automne et ce sera une initiative, évidemment, qui va revenir de façon annuelle et qui va permettre à Radio-Canada de connaitre les nouveaux talents émergents au niveau autochtone et aussi à eux de se faire connaitre de Radio-Canada.

4149 MS. TAIT: If I may add, Commissioner. It seems like a long time ago, but back in Banff of -- 2019, was it?

4150 MR. BISSONNETTE: 2019, yeah.

4151 MS. TAIT: Thank you.

4152 We announced a commitment for our independent production. It was an aspirational goal that -- where we said that by 2025 the key creative -- at least one of the key creative roles associated with all of our independent production, commissioned production, would have a creator or a creative person from one of the equity-seeking groups.

4153 That was a -- very much a statement of aspiration. We didn't set specific, you know, steps to get there. What we were signalling, however, to the -- our community of independent producers is -- as -- is our desire and our commitment to changing the makeup of the industry.

4154 And you know, we talked a little bit earlier about women, and it really is about saying, you know, if you want a show greenlit at CBC and Radio-Canada, we're -- our expectation is to see that you will engage in this work with us.

4155 And they are our partners, and we've seen some extraordinary steps already. A lot of changes are underway. So just to put kind of an umbrella over all of these various initiatives that we have.

4156 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That is really reassuring to hear. That's really interesting to hear. Are you able to provide a little bit of a progress report, either now or at a later date, on that content?

4157 MS. TAIT: Well, I think that will be captured in the report ---

4158 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4159 MS. TAIT: --- that we are talking about in terms of about ---

4160 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Perfect.

4161 MS. TAIT: --- in terms of going forward on independent production, and we've included now in‑house production in that ---

4162 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Perfect.

4163 MS. TAIT: --- in that report.

4164 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Great. Okay, so speaking of independent production, both APTN and the Indigenous Screen Office both said that CBC should support Indigenous media as the expression of the rate of Indigenous people to own and operate their own media. Where Indigenous media is not available that's when CBC should support the establishment of such media. APTN further acknowledged that CBC's resources and expanding digital presence may put Indigenous media at the risk of being undermined and even subsumed within the CBC. In the corporation's reply, there was an acknowledgement of creating partnerships with various Indigenous organizations.

4165 I also note that OUT TV expressed the view in their written submission that it does not make sense that the CBC should compete directly with other regulated broadcasters with very specific mandates. OUT TV noted that CBC had been working more closely with it on programming, which is a better use of resources, and shows a cooperative spirit in working together with diverse communities and producers. OUT TV suggested a condition of licence that CBC continue to work with it, and potentially other diverse producers, when considering programming directed at the communities they serve. Can you comment on the proposal put forward by OutTV?

4166 MS. TAIT: I'm going to think about that just for a minute because there's a couple of things that you're saying in there.

4167 We are absolutely delighted to partner with all other broadcasters. I think you heard about the challenges that we face in financing Canadian content. So, anybody who wants to bring resources to the table and creative ideas to the table, and I just want to stress again we have made a commitment to APTN to work on a memorandum of understanding to kind of outline how we'd collaborate, and we do already collaborate on a lot of shows with APTN. It's a great relationship.

4168 The restriction of -- that is being sought there -- and I'm just trying to fully understand it -- is that we should not produce or commission programming that OutTV might be producing or commissioning, and that to me would be counterproductive. If we go back to your questioning about access. OutTV, as you know, is a digital service, so I'm not sure that it has full carriage across the country.

4169 So I just want to make sure that if we are doing programming that's reflecting or trying to reach the LGBTQ2+ community, we wouldn't want to be restricted to just having it carried by OutTV. So, I'm not entirely sure. I don't know if somebody could be more precise on the OutTV proposal, or help me here?

4170 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I was interested to hear about partnerships that are created within the production industry, specifically when producers work with specific segments of the population that we've been speaking about today.

4171 MS. TAIT: And it's -- absolutely. And we have great relationships, as I said, where, you know, whether it's TVO, or an OUT, or any of these other broadcasters, especially independent broadcasters who may be seeking a greater, broader platform, and sometimes we can bring that kind of weight to the table.

4172 I don't know, Barb, if you have anything to add to that.

4173 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I was just going to say what you just said about all the independent broadcasters. We've partnered with Blue Ant. So we are very open to finding those partnerships, and as Catherine says, taking advantage of pooling resources to try to get great content done and then always finding a way to share the broadcast or the exhibition of the program. We don't have any problem with that.

4174 But we really wouldn't want to be restricted from doing what they do and just see our mandate somehow shrunk, so all the conversation we've been having about how do we represent everybody, because we feel we should, but we can partner with others to make that happen.

4175 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much.

4176 I have a section on exhibition and expenditure requirements. So currently, as a way of ensuring the reflection of Canada's OLMC communities, the Commission has imposed a number of requirements to either track the exhibition of programming or in relation to the allocation of production budgets to the creation of that programming.

4177 Should the Commission adopt a similar approach to supporting the creation of programming that is reflective and relevant to Canada's diverse communities, including Indigenous people and multicultural and ethnic populations?

4178 MS. TAIT: You know, we struggled with this -- this very, very question. And it is -- you know, and it is a possible avenue, and we -- then we end up in a situation how many ways do you divide -- I go back to dividing the pie. And, you know, there are many, many interest groups, and that is part of the richness of the country, many, many cultural and ethnic groups and racial groups in the country. So, how do you determine? Is it just the loudest voice or the most developed of those production interests?

4179 And for the time being, what we have said, and, you know, we're open to solutions and brilliant solutions coming from those communities, and quite frankly, we've just -- as you've heard, we've just been embarking in these -- on these conversations. But the idea of earmarking specific amounts for -- to specific groups right now feels premature, given where are at -- in the conversations. That's not to say that we wouldn't end up there at some point, but currently what we try to do is achieve that representation in the programming decisions that we make.

4180 Again, Barb, if you'd like to add to my comment.

4181 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I think that was well said. I mean, we have -- we experience it regionally as well; right?

4182 MS. TAIT: Right.

4183 MS. WILLIAMS: We also try to represent all the regions. And if you start to slice it up and do 5 percent to every group and region and -- you end up -- the phrase, and you mentioned it a couple of times, "you're programming by mathematics."

4184 And that is not the spirit and intent of the creative process of the development of ideas, of the spring boarding from a brand new person, that you've got a creator somewhere that you never would've even thought of that suddenly comes in the door. So I agree, I agree with where -- what you've said, Catherine.

4185 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. If the Commission were to ---

4186 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. Just I -- I feel my colleague, Bev, waving here. I just ---

4187 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Please.

4188 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Well, I just wanted to -- you know, as we're having this discussion, the challenge is trying -- if you want to measure something you have to define it. So for example, the Commission has a definition for Indigenous independent producer, and we have said that going forward we would report on the number of projects that are commissioned from independent producers that are in development, in production, and completed, including their budgets. We can do that because we have the definition.

4189 The challenge that I'm having is if we are being asked to report on something that there's not an agreed upon definition, whether it's a production company or what have you, in some ways it becomes a definitional challenge and I don't know how we could provide that information to the Commission.

4190 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I suppose maybe it would be a multi-step approach beginning with an agreed upon or an acceptable definition. But I hear what you're saying.

4191 MS. TAIT: Well, and that was certainly what I was inviting the Commission ---

4192 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah.

4193 MS. TAIT: --- to consider earlier in this proceeding ---

4194 COMMISSOINER ANDERSON: Earlier, yeah.

4195 MS. TAIT: --- is that we really -- I think not just us but as an industry we ---

4196 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah.

4197 MS. TAIT: --- we've got some work to do around nomenclature, and we -- and some sensitivity training around that too, if I may add.

4198 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, you are definitely giving me a lot of food for thought that's for sure, so I understand what you're saying.

4199 If the Commission were to -- I guess it might -- we might run into the same kind of roadblock, but I still want to ask the question for the record. If the Commission were to impose an exhibition-related set of requirements on the CBC and SRC with respect to such programming, can you please provide and comment on an appropriate level of exhibition of audiovisual productions with Indigenous people, women, the ethnic community, LGBTQ, or persons with disabilities in a majority key leadership role?

4200 MS. TAIT: Is that something we want to do? I'm certainly not going to do that right now. So how do we want to proceed on that, Bev? You want to give me some guidance?

4201 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Well, I guess what we have said is that we would report on that to the Commission in terms of those things. So if the Commission's -- and I go back to what Barb -- it really struck me what Barb said earlier, which is you need to look at the whole schedule. You need to look overall at everything that's there.

4202 So if, you know, in doing these reports there seem to be something that needed to be addressed, then that's a separate discussion. In some ways, by having that information that, you know, the Commission could actually have some reporting and be able to see how we're doing. Whether we're moving forward, going back, or -- you know, there would be a more fulsome discussion. So that's why we propose reporting.

4203 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right. Okay, thank you.

4204 Could you please comment -- well, I do -- I still have to ask the question. So would you in -- would you please comment on an exhibition approach that would take into account the entirety of CBC and SRC's audiovisual platforms, including traditional platforms and those exempt by virtue of the Digital Media Exemption Order?

4205 MS. TAIT: The last part threw me, sorry. Maybe you could repeat the question and Bev can answer it. It was the DMEO that I’m not -- wasn’t entirely understood.

4206 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So it’s a question on the appropriate level of exhibition of audiovisual productions with Indigenous people, women, multi-cultural, ethnic, LGBTQ, or persons with disabilities in a majority of key leadership roles. And comment on an exhibition approach that would take into account the entirety of CBC’s audiovisual platforms, including traditional platforms and digital platforms and digital platforms.

4207 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Okay. So our proposal is that reporting on all the groups with the -- I think what you’ve heard earlier is LGBTQ2+ was not part of our reporting proposal going to -- I can’t remember who said it earlier, that we would look at all the groups that are identified in the Employment Equity Act.

4208 But as Catherine said, we would like the ability to consider what it -- what was the nomenclature or terminology, just refine it a little bit. And our proposal is that that would cover traditional, digital, audiovisual, and as well as audio. So it would look at the entirety of our content for CBC and for Radio-Canada.

4209 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And would that also consider the appropriate level of music or other audio content produced by, or involving Indigenous people, women, multicultural, or ethnic, LGBTQ, or persons with disabilities?

4210 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: That would include key leadership roles, and one of the things that we’d have to do is, there has never been -- so if the Commission were to deem that acceptable, there would have to be an agreement of what the key leadership roles are with respect to audio, because we’ve had discussions about audiovisual.

4211 We’ve never really talked about what the key decision-making roles are. So that would be a discussion that we would most welcome -- we would most welcome to have with the Commission, if we were to go there. So to agree upon what it is and those key leadership roles. So does that answer -- I’m not sure if I’ve answered your question.

4212 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I think -- I think it does. And I can’t speak on behalf of the Commission, but I’d imagine that that would be a conversation that the Commission would like to have.

4213 But I’m saying that without looking at the Executive Director of Broadcasting. So he might be waving his hands and I -- but I’d imagine that that -- it’s a question that’s in our materials that I’d imagine warrants further conversation.

4214 MS. TAIT: I think the message, Commissioner, is there’s a high degree of willingness to work with the Commission to get this one right.

4215 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That’s wonderful.

4216 MS. TAIT: Understanding that it’s a little bit of a moveable feast.

4217 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Wonderful. Okay, thank you very much.

4218 If the Commission were to impose an expenditure related set of requirements on the CBC and the SRC with respect to the support for the creation of such programming, could you please comment on a requirement that would entail that the CBC and SRC expend a portion of its programming related revenues on expenditures related to the creation of such programming? What would be an appropriate level? How much of that level should be devoted to independent production companies?

4219 MS. TAIT: Again, I think that we’ve -- on the independent production companies’ piece, I think that it goes right across the board. We are saying 80 percent to independent production companies. So that doesn’t change. So remove that, and then go to the -- then we’re back to the discussion on expenditures versus exhibition in our -- in our hesitancy to embrace that approach.

4220 But just based on what my colleague has said in terms of the trying to run what is a -- fundamentally a creative business by a spreadsheet, and it really -- you know, we really feel very strongly about -- given that we are the public broadcaster, given that we would -- have demonstrated a willingness to report on how we allocate resources and how we will address the needs of these various communities. It kind of goes beyond what I would say is administratively manageable, or even desirable, quite frankly.

4221 As long as we can demonstrate that these communities are being served, either through public perception surveys or by the -- in terms of whose being hired and how, in all those key leadership roles, we feel that that will accomplish the public policy objective that you are describing.

4222 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. I’ve got a couple more questions on expenditure. So if you’ll bear with me.

4223 Currently, as a means of ensuring that official language minority community producers in Quebec are supported, and that their productions are broadcast by both CBC and SRC, the Commission has imposed the following conditions of licence.

4224 To devote to the acquisition of or investment in Canadian programming by independent production companies from the province of Quebec, at least 6 percent of the current broadcasters’ programming expenditures on Canadian programming from independent production companies averaged over the licence term.

4225 And the second condition would be at least 10 percent of the annual programming development expenditures to English language programming from independent production companies in Quebec, averaged over the licence term.

4226 Can you please comment on the imposition of similar levels of support and creation of programs whose key leadership positions are occupied by a majority of individuals that identify as either Indigenous, women, people of colour, LGBTQ, or persons with disabilities? As appropriate and if it is available, include baseline expenditures undertaken by the CBC and SRC on these programs over the last three years.

4227 MS. TAIT: Okay, that’s -- I don’t believe something that we have at hand. That’s not something that we track, and I’m not sure that -- I just want to go back to what to what my colleague Barb said a little earlier, which is the definition that I just heard is, as long as the key leadership positions are by -- held by one of those groups, then that show somehow becomes representative.

4228 And what she was saying is that we know for example with the Black producer community, and we’ve heard from the Indigenous screen office, that ownership of production company is actually becoming more of a measure that those communities are interested in. So you could have a Black owned company producing a show that doesn’t necessarily have the representation that you’ve just described or even from its own community.

4229 So we -- I think we have to be very, very careful, apart from the spirit of what it is you’ve just described, we really, really need to be really careful before we get ourselves over described and overprescribed, into categories that are actually not reflective of what’s going on in the industry, or more importantly, what is desired by those particular communities.

4230 And as I’ve said, I guess what I would like to appeal to the Commission is to give us some time here to work through some of these issues with the -- with the community. Just as we’re going into an Indigenous broadcasting policy review, we’re also -- you know, we’ve got work to do here to understand what it is, how we best serve these communities as the public broadcaster. So I don’t want to be pre-emptive.

4231 I don’t -- and I’m not trying to dodge the request, because you’ve heard -- we are so committed to getting this right, we just don’t want to agree to something that ends up being -- takes us somewhere we don’t want to go.

4232 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is this kind of information the type of information that would be included in any public perception measures survey, by any chance?

4233 MS. TAIT: I don’t know that it is now, but there is -- again, we’ve heard loud and clear the interest here, and we’re evolving our thinking and I would say that going deeper on some of these questions that have been raised through this proceeding, especially with this time with you, Commissioner, you know, there’s no reason why we couldn’t be thinking -- the brains could be thinking about adding -- oh, no, okay -- no. You’re telling me not to say it.

4234 (LAUGHTER/RIRES)

4235 MS. WILLIAMS: No, maybe Bev was trying -- asking you not to say something. I guess the public, they see what’s on the screen. And they don’t know who made it, and they don’t know how much it cost, and they don’t know whether it had another partner in it, or it didn’t and they don't know any of it, they just know what's on the screen. And in addition to having a sensibility of whether it's reflective or speaks to them or they see themselves in the character or they relate to the story, there's also just a layer of is it any good.

4236 And let's be clear, making good TV is really hard. I don't care who you are or what great story you have to tell, making good TV is really hard, and viewers are not of the mind to say, "Well, I saw that they made a really good attempt at that. Wasn't really very good so I don't think I'll watch it, but bully for them, they tried hard."

4237 They -- so public perception is very much caught in all of what they see and experience. Television's emotional, what they see and experience as a viewer.

4238 These other layers we're talking about of who made it and who's performing in it, and who led the -- who's the showrunner, and was there representation the writing room? Those are the things that result in great TV and representative television, but I don't know that the public perception could or should, frankly, delve into that back layer, necessarily. We have to have other ways to monitor and report on the behind the scenes, I think, and respect the audience will tell us through the many ways we've been talking about for days now about whether we hit the mark.

4239 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I wonder if an Indigenous audience member would share that same view?

4240 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, we -- I think some probably do and some probably don't would be my guess.

4241 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. And then speaking about public perception measure surveys, they've been referred to quite a bit throughout the course of the day and the week. And I was wondering if we're all -- if the Commission has access to the same public perception surveys that have been referred to and replied upon by President Tait?

4242 MS. TAIT: I believe they do. Are you posing that question to us or to your ---

4243 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes.

4244 MS. TAIT: --- to your colleagues?

4245 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Because I have a note that we might not have them on the record. And so I was wondering if we can have access to the resources that you've been referring to and relying upon.

4246 MS. TAIT: Yeah, absolutely. And -- but they are published on our annual -- in our annual and online. So -- but yes, happily to ---

4247 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4248 MS. TAIT: --- happy to get them back to you.

4249 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Perfect.

4250 MS. TAIT: M'hm.

4251 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And then one final question in relation to expenditures, and hopefully it can be somewhat brief because I think that has been answered in -- to some extent. And that is the CBC and SRC indicates that it provides financial support to feature length film productions through CBC film directed by women, members of the LGBTQ community, Indigenous people and other representatives of diversity groups. How many projects have received the support? What are the limiting criteria? Is there similar support for francophones? And what platform generally broadcasts these productions? And I can repeat any aspect of that question if you need.

4252 MS. TAIT: As you can possibly, probably imagine, I don't have that information at my fingertips. However, I do believe we took an undertaking to give you some more detail on the feature film activities, so why don't we include that request in ---

4253 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That is perfect.

4254 MS. TAIT: --- in that undertaking.

4255 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That's great. Those are my questions on exhibition.

4256 Mr. Chair, was there a....

4257 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is probably a good time to take a mid-afternoon break.

4258 Madam Secretary, can we take 15 minutes and return, I guess about seven minutes after?

4259 THE SECRETARY: At 3:10.

4260 THE CHAIRPERSON: At 3:10.

4261 THE SECRETARY: Yes.

4262 THE CHAIRPERSON: There we go.

4263 THE SECRETARY: Okay, thank you.

4264 THE CHAIRPERSON: With even numbers. Returning at 3:10. And counsel will sort out -- to the extent that we have combined those undertakings, we'll try and straighten it out so that we can simplify it somewhat for the corporation at the end of the day.

4265 Thank you. We'll break until 3:10.

--- Upon recessing at 2:54 p.m./

L'audience est suspendue à 14h54

--- Upon resuming at 3:12 p.m./

L'audience est reprise à 15h12

4266 Mme ROY: Merci, Monsieur le président.

4267 Before we continue, I would just like to announce that tomorrow we will continue with CBC's questioning, and we will start Phase II, the intervenors’ phase, on Monday. We will post a revised agenda shortly on the website. And people that were supposed to be participating tomorrow, intervenors, will have a -- I will call them to let them know of the plan for their presentation.

4268 Mr. Chairman, we may continue.

4269 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci, Madame la secrétaire.

4270 I'll return the floor to Commissioner Anderson. Please go ahead.

4271 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

4272 My next few questions relate to discoverability when it comes to content for -- diverse content. What is the CBC and SRC's approach to discoverability as it pertains to the discoverability of diverse content? Is discoverability in that sense about making content available to particular communities, or is it about ensuring that reflective and relevant content about those communities is available and discoverable to both those audiences and broader audiences?

4273 MS. TAIT: Our principle of discoverability is both. Did you want more detail or is that sufficient?

4274 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: No, that's actually very sufficient. How would you assess whether you are successful in that regard?

4275 MS. TAIT: I knew there would be a follow-up, so I'm -- at this point, having to come up with the shortest possible answer, I will now hand it over to my colleagues, Barb and Michel. They are the experts on not only programming but how to get programming to audiences.

4276 M. BISSONNETTE: Ben, merci, Madame la conseillère.

4277 Comment on peut savoir si c’est un succès, c’est pas toujours la cotte d’écoute qui est le plus grand succès, mais sur tous nos contenus, que ce soit sur l’alphanumérique, sur le numérique ou encore à la télévision, on est en mesure de pouvoir mesurer le nombre de personnes qui sont venues consulter le contenu, l’engagement, donc le nombre de temps qu’ils sont restés pour le consulter. Donc, vraiment, les contenus qui sont liés à la diversité sont mesurés au même titre que tous les autres contenus qu’on peut mettre en ligne ou qu’on peut diffuser, de façon à avoir la meilleure lecture de l’appréciation du public. Qu’il soit un public qui est ciblé ou un public qui est large, dans tous les cas on mesure les retombées de ce qu’on diffuse ou de ce qu’on publie.

4278 MS. TAIT: And I will turn this to Barb as well. Just give her a chance to... Okay.

4279 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to guess you were just saying something that I was trying to ---

4280 MS. TAIT: I was saying I was going to hand it to you while we finish listening to Michel.

4281 MS. WILLIAMS: Thanks. I'm becoming a lip reader. Thank you.

4282 I would echo what Michel said. We try to market in much more inventive ways now so that with digital marketing and the effectiveness of it, you can target your marketing efforts to more specific communities now to ensure awareness to a specific community that there's content that we think might be of particular interest to them.

4283 For example, if we have people coming to our Black in Canada website, we can put a notice up on the Black in Canada website that we have a show coming to CTV -- or, CTV - oh my god - to CBC's primetime that we think might be of particular interest to that audience that is regularly coming to Black in Canada. So we're trying to be very thoughtful in our marketing.

4284 And then ultimately, as Michel says, you track how many people watched or listened. Did they stay very long? Did you -- did they come from the program before and try your new show but drop off right away, or did they hang around through the first commercial break? It's all that audience metric then that helps us understand.

4285 And then there is the daily feedback from the audience that tells us you hit the mark or you didn't quite, and sometimes that comes very specifically from the community, sometimes from the larger audience. So it's a collective of all of that.

4286 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay, thank you. So do these strategies differ from the general approach to discoverability?

4287 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think we're trying to use all of these tactics all the time for everything. Some stuff you go broad, some stuff you go narrow, sometimes you go very broad and a specific target. We're trying all the time to use all the resources and intel we have to make our incredible range of content well known to as many people as possible, and specifically to those that we think might be uniquely interested, and then track whether it works so that when we try it again we -- you know, continuously try to improve.

4288 MS. TAIT: If I can just also add, because that all sounds like very much, you know, using the technology. There's also a huge community piece to discoverability, and I'm just going to take one example.

4289 Not to steal Merv's thunder, but I had the privilege of -- one of my first trips at CBC Radio-Canada was to Iqaluit, and I arrived there and there was -- I went to the station and there was nobody there. I said, "Well, where is everybody?", and I was told, "Well, they're all down at the port where the bowhead whale as been harpooned." And our entire crew is there, including Madeline, our host of the TV hour news show, where her son, a 15‑year-old boy, was on his first hunt.

4290 We are so deeply embedded in the community that it's hard to describe. I mean, and I -- there's a million stories like that. Whether it's the food that we send up at -- at the holiday time into fly‑in communities from Thunder Bay, whether it's the various community-based initiatives, it's really -- we are in the community. And oftentimes were -- a lot of our programming and our initiatives it's going to be at the community level that -- and I don't want, I just don't want that to be missed in what we've talked about here.

4291 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a relevant consideration when working with diverse communities.

4292 My last question for discoverability is could you please comment on a requirement that the CBC and SRC report on its approach to the discoverability of content that's relevant to the diverse communities that we've been discussing today.

4293 MS. TAIT: Again, I'm not -- I think what you've heard is that we have -- we employ multiple tools and strategies and they apply across everything that we do. There's not like we have a specific diversity discoverability strategy. It's really we employ the tools that makes sense for the piece of content or the type of content that is being presented.

4294 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. My next line of questioning is about the availability of content across all platforms, and this one's of particular interest to me. It's all of interest to me.

4295 But Canadians interact with the CBC and the SRC content on a variety of platforms for many reasons. For some, affordability informs their decision, for others, it's a matter of convenience; for others yet, it could be due to geographic location, familiarity with technology, or other reasons.

4296 The CBC/SRC is expected to make its programming available throughout Canada by the most appropriate and efficient means and as resources become available for that purpose. While it is right to acknowledge that many Canadians are engaging with CBC's programming in the digital space, many Canadians still rely on traditional television and radio programming. Similarly, much of the content you make available to Indigenous people is available on your online platforms.

4297 Broadband internet access is best in Canada's largest urban centres -- and as spending on communication services tends to increase as the average annual household income increases, Indigenous people face higher rates of inequality, which despite increasing populations in urban centres, still puts these groups at a disadvantage when accessing content in the online space. And that is to say nothing about the issues faced by Indigenous people in rural and remote areas, including on reserves. Similar forces are at play for other marginalized groups.

4298 In that light, how does a programming strategy that relies increasingly on the broadcast of programming in the online space serve Indigenous or other marginalized communities?

4299 MS. TAIT: I'll give a first pass at that and maybe turn it to Barb and Michel to complement.

4300 It is, as I said at the outset, it is our intention and commitment to maintain the over the air transmitters and to ensure a robust commitment to our linear services. We've -- and I think I don't need to repeat that, but I just -- again, that is point number one.

4301 Point number two is that I don't want to under-play the importance of digital for indigenous communities.

4302 Broadband is for sure -- high-speed internet is for sure required where you're consuming -- streaming video, for example. But let us not underestimate the importance of Facebook for those communities because they are probably among our highest users of Facebook.

4303 And a lot of our indigenous unit content is Facebook friendly as a result of that, so we are very attuned to who's using what and how in that regard.

4304 But if I can, there's another piece of this.

4305 What we know is on the economic side of people who are in economically-challenging situations that library usage, for example, or going to a library can often -- and that's not just for indigenous. I'm talking about anybody who doesn't have internet in their home.

4306 The libraries have become -- and in the case of indigenous communities, often those are the community centre, not -- the libraries have a different role in -- especially on reserves. But the libraries have become enormously important for those -- so for people to have access to the internet.

4307 There's -- you know, if you go into a library today, it's like a media centre in many cases. And we see that in our London station as a great example because that station is actually in the library. I mean, it sits right there.

4308 And when I went to the Junos and -- two years ago, I was just amazed at how the library and the CBC were collaborating in a number of programs in terms of accessibility and making sure that people were getting access to content.

4309 And that's something, aspirationally, that's -- I would say is a great opportunity for us to make sure that people who are maybe in disadvantaged situations or newcomers because oftentimes libraries are the first place of entry. And we've met with -- as I mentioned earlier with Lesley Weir and other leaders in the library community, oftentimes new Canadians learn English through a library environment and then if, you know, we're there on the -- on the computers there, they'll get to know the public broadcaster as well.

4310 Anyway, all that to say there are -- and I'm sorry. I'm now rambling.

4311 I'll hand it over to Barb and to Michel, perhaps, for additional comment.

4312 MS. WILLIAMS: I would just very quickly add because you have said lots there, Catherine, that's absolutely right. And only to say we do appreciate the concern, and I think it's one of the reasons why we are committed to integrating our content that speaks to diverse communities, integrating that right into the mainstream of everything we do on each platform that we're on and not isolating it to only one platform or another because we don't know for sure which platform are we the platform of choice, and we need to be sure that there's representation across traditional TV, hence the floors that we've committed to for all the range of content, and that there's representation across radio and that there's representation across digital so that you can find it everywhere and not isolated only to one place or another where people might not be able to have access.

4313 M. BISSONNETTE: Et en complément de réponse, Madame la Conseillère, je l’ai dit hier, mais ce qu’on fait en numérique ne vient pas en opposition à ce qu’on fait sur les chaines linéaires, c'est en addition.

4314 Et je comprends votre préoccupation parce que c’est pas tous les Canadiens qui ont accès à la haute vitesse, c'est pas tous les Canadiens qui consomment sur le numérique, et la proposition qu’on a déposée en août 2019 témoigne de notre volonté de croire profondément dans les plateformes linéaires, mais en même temps, comme on l’a dit, on sait que 25 % ne nous consomment que sur le numérique et on ne veut pas échapper une génération.

4315 Donc, pour nous, c’est vraiment une question d’équilibre, mais soyez rassurés, tous les engagements qu’on prend sont pour une présence forte, solide et sincère sur nos plateformes linéaires.

4316 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

4317 So it sounds as though you're taking into account income diversity, education, age, access based on urban and rural areas.

4318 Are there any other factors that I've missed when you're considering what's an appropriate forum in which to air content?

4319 MS. TAIT: I don't believe so. I think you've -- I think we've hit all of them.

4320 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you.

4321 The next section relates to measurement and accountability as well as CBC and SRC's proposed diversity conditions of licence, so this is going to be a bit of a longer section.

4322 I'm just going to dive right in.

4323 So the Commission is seeking clarification on CBC/SRC's proposed diversity conditions of licence. With respect to each diverse group, what would be reported on such as annual improvements and concrete actions, and would CBC and SRC provide data separately for each platform such as budgets per diverse group for its programs?

4324 MS. TAIT: Bev, would you answer that one?

4325 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Sure. Thank you.

4326 So in terms of reporting on -- there were a couple of elements to your question. Would you mind just parsing them out so I could respond to each directly, please?

4327 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. So the Commission is seeking clarification with respect to CBC and SRC's proposed diversity conditions of licence. With respect to each diverse group, what would be reported on, such as annual improvements or concrete actions, and would the CBC and SRC provide data separately for each platform?

4328 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So with respect to reporting, we talked about there were two elements. There was the hiring, but let's put that aside. Every year we talked -- we've already talked about that.

4329 So I think what we're talking here is about key leadership positions for audio and for audio-visual programming. And the -- what we are proposing is it would be for CBC audio-visual, so that would be television, linear television and audio, and for -- and the same for Radio Canada, as well as for CBC audio. That would be linear radio and digital radio.

4330 And which was the first part of your question; which groups?

4331 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, with respect to each diverse group, what would be reported on. And taking that per platform approach, I think, would be appreciated because it gives a lot more information than an -- than aggregated data, so the more detail, the better.

4332 MS. TAIT: It's a little tricky because -- yeah. What we've committed to is, as Bev has said, to report on audio and audio-visual, both traditional and the -- and digital platforms and to -- for our in-house and independent production to report on key leadership positions.

4333 That's what we've agreed to report on. To start trying to go beyond -- I mean, that -- I think that gives you the -- most of the platform information because it's audio-visual or audio. I'm not sure how else we would -- how else we would get there.

4334 What other platform are we talking about?

4335 MS. WILLIAMS: And just to add to that just so I'm sure I'm thinking about this the right way, what we can -- what we've committed to and what we can measure, as you've just said, Catherine, is the people that do the work. We can do that.

4336 And we can be clear about what work they do, and we've acknowledged that for many, many people in our organization, they do things for more than one platform. Our entire news organization, which is the vast majority of our employees, are -- you know, many, many are involved in this news-gathering ecosystem that we've talked about, so they are -- when we measure that person and put them in a category should they choose to self-identify to that category, their work is generally across platforms.

4337 So we can identify the people that do the work. Once we try to go beyond that, I think we get caught in something Bev mentioned earlier about the definitions.

4338 You know, we have very purposefully in all of our internal work in news, current affairs and local been very immersive in making sure that reflecting diversity is embedded in everything we do. We try very, very hard to make sure that in the story selection, in the story telling, in the story presentation that it's embedded and it can't really be -- by design, it can't be pulled apart. That would sort of defeat the purpose of what we're trying to do as a -- and when it comes to the independent stuff, we’ve also talked about how does one define the show? Is it by ownership of the IP? Is it about whether the story is about a community? And wehaven’t, as an industry, figured out those definitions,

4339 So I guess I feel very comfortable and see the huge value in tracking the people that do the work. I struggle to figure out the next steps.

4340 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Maybe having a bit of an understanding of what types of positions or what are the categories of employment; for instance, executive, senior management, editorial, junior staff, as well as their employment status; like, permanent, part-time, or contract? Coming to ---

4341 MS. TAIT: Bev, you’re waving your hand?

4342 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Yes, I am raising my hand. Thank you.

4343 I think we’re talking about two different types of reporting, both of which we have said that we would do. The first reporting is, we’ve said we would provide information to the Commission with respect to the people that we’vehired in a given year that have self-identified in the groups identified in the Employment Equity Act, and we would provide those new hires so thatyouwould get a sense of how this organization is doing from year to year with respect to overall, as well as at a management level. So that’s the first piece.

4344 The second piece, separate from the first piece, is diversity and key leadership roles, and that deals with the inhouse and the Commission content. And how the Commission has looked at it,and I’ve had an opportunity to look at the production reports, is the Commission has defined certain defined certain roles as key leadership roles. So if we were to be reporting on diversity, whether it’s inhouse or commissioned programming, whether it’s -- and depending on, you know, whether it’s audiovisual or audio, we would have to have an agreement on what those key leadership roles are because in some ways we’re breaking new ground, so we’d have to have an agreement. But what we would be doing is reporting on that.

4345 And so it would be the underrepresented groups that we talked about, and the how that we do it, well, for inhouse it would be based on employee self-identification. So we’re not going to decide who fits in the groups, it’s based on -- and any -- so that’s one piece. And then with respect to theindependent producers, it would also be on their assessment of key leadership production roles.

4346 And then we would report on that in aggregate for CBC audiovisual, in aggregate for CBC audio, in aggregate for CBC -- for Radio-Canada audiovisual, and in aggregate for Radio-Canada audio.

4347 And so that’s really what we’ve proposed, and in order to do that, you know, on -- for CBC/Radio-Canada, in terms of internally, it’s going to require, you know, some new processes and a new way of doing things because it’s actually not how Marco Dubé and his team have set things up but it’s something that we are -- you know, that we’ve put forward to do on a going-forward basis, you know, for the new licence term.

4348 Thank you.

4349 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And so -- yeah. No, that, I think, answers the question, or at least what your views are on the answer, so that’s -- that, I think, is fine.

4350 With respect to the proposed diversity reporting condition of licence for women, the Commission is seeking clarificationon the CBC and SRC’s proposed condition of licence requiring it to report annually on the percentage of commissioned reports with women in key leadership roles for both English and French language productions and the proposed expectation that it provide the required information with respect to its traditional and digital platforms in a single report.

4351 The first question is; which key leadership roles in broadcasting production do the CBC and SRC propose to report on, and how does the CBC and SRC define those roles?

4352 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So I’ll just take that one because it’s regulatory in its language.

4353 When we drafted our application, we didn’t have the benefit of the production report that the Commission came up with and had developed. And once we had an opportunity to see it, it seems that there's a bit of overlap in terms of reporting that we said.

4354 So if we’re talking about reporting on underrepresented groups, and there may be some confusion because earlier today you heard Catherine and Marco saying, “Well, what we’re really focusing on, you know, women have -- we’re focused on other groups.” Well, we continue to report on women and the key leadership positions, as defined by us in our voluntary commitment, is different than what the key leadership roles as defined by the Commission after we made our voluntary commitment. So we would certainly be open to having a discussion to ensure that, you know, we’re hittingthe right key leadership roles in audiovisual, whether it’s inhouse or commissioned, as well as on the audio side.

4355 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you, yeah.

4356 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Thank you.

4357 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much.

4358 Will the CBC and SRC address the number or percentage of women in key leadership roles who are also members of other designated groups; Indigenous women, women of colour, or women with disabilities?

4359 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So I think the way that we’ve envisioned it is that an individual may self-identify as more than one group, so that would be accounted for in the reporting but I’m not sure there’s a way of knowing if it’s one person -- and I’m must looking at the -- thinking about the production reports as the Commission has set them up for the large ownership groups as it comes to reporting on key leadership role for women. So the short answer is; if an individual self-identified as a woman as well as another group, we would report on all of those designations.

4360 Does that make sense?

4361 MS. TAIT: Right, but I just -- I’m not the Commissioner but I do -- if I may; we need to have a system so that we know where we have one person who has two of those criteria, would we not?

4362 So, Marco, I think that -- this may be getting into the weeds but I get what you’re trying to get at, Commissioner.

4363 So, Marco, do you have a thought on how we would do that?

4364 M. DUBÉ : Je pense que ce que la conseillère souhaite obtenir c’est, est-ce qu’on sépare les personnes qui sont dans les trois groupes d’équités, soit les personnes autochtones, ce qu’on appelle les minorités visibles, donc les personnes racisées ou noires par exemple, et les personnes en situation de handicap. Est-ce qu’on sépare les personnes dans ces trois groupes-là en femme et les autres. Est-ce que je comprends bien la question ?

4365 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, presumably it would be about tracking data for all of the specific diverse groups, so, hopefully, it wouldn’t be too onerous. Well, maybe it would.

4366 (LAUGHTER/RIRES)

4367 M. DUBÉ : Parce que ça peut devenir très, très compliqué, très rapidement. Je pense que le but ici est vraiment de dire…

4368 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah. May I consult with my staff and get back to you on what the vision is on our end?

4369 M. DUBÉ : Absolument.

4370 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you.

4371 M. DUBÉ : Absolument, absolument.

4372 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you very much. Okay.

4373 Next, I had questions about reporting for Indigenous people.

4374 Will the CBC -- we’ve talked about it this morning but just for the purposes of fleshing out the record -- and your answer can be very quick, but for the purposes of fleshing out the record, could you please let me know; will the CBC and SRC report on the number or percentages of Indigenous people in key leadership roles ---

4375 MS. TAIT: Yes.

4376 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: --- who are also members -- okay.

4377 MS. TAIT: Oh, no, yes ---

4378 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Who are also members -- who are also members of other designated groups of Indigenous ---

4379 MS. TAIT: Well, I don’t know.

4380 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah.

4381 MS. TAIT: No. I’m not sure -- I’m not sure that we have that flexibility. And, by the way, when we get into small numbers, we have to be very sensitive to the Privacy Act.

4382 So maybe as an aggregate number if we had that.

4383 What I would suggest is let us perhaps come back and clarify what we are able to do and then what we can do by virtue of the Privacy Act on that one.

4384 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I am going to say that seems reasonable. And if my response is not satisfactory to my colleagues, then I’ll let you know.

4385 Okay. My next question is, just prior to CBC and SRC’s previous licence renewal in 2013, the CBC concluded a study to determine media use by Indigenous People.

4386 The CBC stated that this research was detailed and that it was used to develop an Indigenous strategy. In what way has the Indigenous strategy changed from what was developed seven years ago? What is the main objective; what main objectives are the CBC and SRC aiming to achieve through formal consultations it is now proposing to uphold? And what strategy has the CBC and SRC developed to meet the needs of Indigenous People who live throughout Canada?

4387 MS. TAIT: Those are very, very broad questions, but I would just say that the activity -- the increase in activity, and I’ve described this to you and I won’t repeat, since 2012 to today was substantial.

4388 Now, we are beginning a new licence period hopefully, and our commitment there is to work with Indigenous communities led by our two Indigenous leaders to determine a new path forward. And the purpose of that is to make sure that this conversation is as inclusive as possible.

4389 We’ve learned a lot about reflecting Indigenous communities. We can do better, and we want to make sure that this new strategy reflects that.

4390 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay, that seems completely satisfactory.

4391 With respect to the formal consultations that you’ve committed to holding every two years, we just were wondering if the CBC is planning to expand the proposed formal consultations to also include consulting with communities living throughout the North?

4392 MS. TAIT: I believe, yes, it includes the North. It does not exclude the North.

4393 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: Yes, and just for the record, it wouldn’t be -- we looked at it based on the success of the OLMC consultation conditions of licence, which we had been doing informally, but the Commission imposed as a condition of licence in our last licence renewal decision.

4394 And so what we looked at is, you know, just very broadly, the Commission had set up five areas in the country. And both, CBC and Radio-Canada, do their own separate consultation, OLMC consultations. So we thought it was an opportunity to use that type of consultation or engagement with different -- with Indigenous communities. And it wouldn’t be once every two years because there are so many different groups across the country.

4395 So what you would want to be doing is to be able to go across the country. You would report every year, but you would have the opportunity to formally consult with the Indigenous communities as well as Indigenous producers in a more formal setting.

4396 MS. TAIT: If I may, just for the record, clarify that these are not formal Indigenous federal consultations. That has a different connotation and I just want to make it clear. The language of -- using the language consultation is not appropriate. It’s -- these are what we are calling “engagement sessions”. So I just want to correct that.

4397 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Fair. O.k.

4398 How will the CBC and SRC define the outcomes for the engagement sessions or consultation sessions and how will it determine success?

4399 MS. TAIT: Just as we do with our other consultations. It’s -- and I think you’ve heard about the dialogue that we have. Hopefully, it will mean better cooperation, better collaboration, more partnerships, more programming, hopefully; and a deeper understanding of what those communities are looking for from the Public Broadcaster. That is ultimately where we start.

4400 When I do and Barb and Michel, we go into the communities where we serve, a lot of what we do is meet with stakeholders and listen. And we learn a lot about what we’re getting right and what we’re not getting right. And then we adjust.

4401 And so the measure of success will be ultimately and as we report on this, it is hopefully to see an improvement in that communication but also in the opportunities to do more programming and to better serve those communities.

4402 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So would you be able to provide any examples of metrics that the CBC or SRC would intend to use to measure the outcomes of the consultation process or engagement process?

4403 MS. TAIT: I think it would be premature to say what those would be because we haven’t started it.

4404 I really would like -- and again, and you would understand more than anyone how that is, and not a one-way conversation.

4405 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sure.

4406 MS. TAIT: We have to hear back from the communities, what they look for from us. And I think it will start with APTN, because that’s the one we’ve committed to, right out of the gate in February.

4407 So have a better sense of what the community is looking for. Some of that was outlined in the interventions. It has to do with our role and how we interact with Indigenous-owned broadcasting and production companies, and I’m sure that will apply across the board.

4408 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And presumably not just going in and doing the consultation and leaving and not engaging afterwards. But engaging with the communities after the fact to ask if they perceived that the consultation was meaningful or successful?

4409 MS. TAIT: Exactly. Absolutely.

4410 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Presumably.

4411 MS. TAIT: Yes.

4412 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4413 Would the CBC -- oh, sorry. How much movement, sorry.

4414 Would the CBC and SRC agree to a condition of licence requiring it to achieve specific milestones or movements in metrics over time?

4415 MS. TAIT: I don’t think we feel that that would be appropriate this time. I think the reporting -- we’ll know a lot more when we start reporting on the subject.

4416 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4417 How will the CBC and SRC ensure that a cross-section of Indigenous interests will be represented? How will success be measured on this front?

4418 MS. TAIT: Oh, I think, as you’ve heard from all of the leaders in this Company. We’ll hear, I mean, the minute we issue the Let’s Talk, we will hear. And we have no problem finding people to talk to on these subjects.

4419 But you know we’ll go to the experts, we’ll go to the ISO, we’ll go to APTN. And from there, obviously, Merv in the North will help us in that area.

4420 Each of our stations is very well rooted. You heard from Meagan Fiddler in Winnipeg, and the teams, Isabelle Picard. We are really, as I have to assure the Commissioner, we are very, very well connected. And if we don’t have the direct connection, somebody, we have six degrees of separation, absolutely.

4421 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I understand that. Okay.

4422 Could you please comment on the possibility that the Commission will require the CBC and the SRC to file a report with respect to these engagement sessions and would provide the above information publicly?

4423 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: That’s exactly our proposal. So we are committing to having these engagement sessions. We’re committing to reporting on these engagement sessions. And part of the -- you know, the reporting would include, similar to the OLMC consultations, to demonstrate the feedback that we received from these engagement sessions and how it was taken into consideration with respect to our decision-making.

4424 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That’s music to my ears.

4425 (LAUGHTER/RIRE)

4426 That’s great. That’s really great.

4427 Would the reports be posted on CBC or SRC website or elsewhere?

4428 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So yes. So our proposal is that we would file the report with the CRTC. And similarly to what we do with respect to our OLMC consultation is given that they’re not always made public right away, we proactively make them public.

4429 And we -- you know, I’m jumping ahead here, but I think that we would reach out to those groups and give them a copy because, you know, once -- in my view, once it goes to the Commission, at some point it's going to be public, but we would proactively like them to see the results of the consultation that or the engagement session that they've been involved in and participated in.

4430 And I think it's also important to highlight, it's not just the communities, it's the -- or in -- as part of the community, it's the independent producers as well that are working in these regions. So it -- it's multifaceted.

4431 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Would the data be provided separately for the CBC and SRC's English and French operations and for each of their platforms?

4432 MS. TAIT: I think you heard earlier that the platform division may not be a useful one. We have said audiovisual and audio and then -- and yes, on Radio-Canada and CBC we could provide separately. Obviously, the French language community is much smaller than English language, but we could report separately, yes.

4433 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: And what we do currently with respect to the OLMC consultation is to -- we -- the reports provide an entirety of CBC's offer, whether it's television, or radio, or digital, or other types of initiatives. In, for example, CBC's OLMC report, is about Québec and the entirety of its offer. And Radio-Canada's OLMC reports is about the entirety of its offer in that region.

4434 And I think that's what we were envisioning with respect to the Indigenous engagement -- the outcome or the reports for the Indigenous engagement sessions that we have and the reporting.

4435 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. Sorry, I just have to take a minute. If you'll just excuse me.

4436 Thank you. The Commission recognizes that the CBC and SRC have proposed conditions of licence specific to Indigenous people and women. Can you comment on the imposition of a similar condition of licence with respect to programming for people from ethnic and multi-cultural groups, persons with disabilities, and persons who identify as LGBTQ?

4437 MS. TAIT: I'm not sure I understand what the Commissioner is looking for there. I believe I've said already why we feel that that is -- that that would not be appropriate at this time, but I may have missed the question completely.

4438 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Well, we have to provide you with an opportunity to respond to conditions that we are considering imposing. So ---

4439 MS. TAIT: Well, again, then -- so then I would just say the same ---

4440 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: We ---

4441 MS. TAIT: The same comment that I made before ---

4442 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah.

4443 MS. TAIT: --- would apply again. That we do not feel that a condition of licence with respect to those other communities would be appropriate at this time.

4444 If I may, just to be very clear, these engagement sessions and consultations are -- do not come without costs. These are very -- they're really important, we want to do it, but it's -- there -- it does require an enormous amount of resources to travel the country and to meet with the number of groups that we're talking about. So I just want to make sure that people understand it's not that we're dodging something, it's just again, what can we do reasonably within any particular licence term.

4445 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And if the question is geared more towards providing information, because in your proposed condition of licence there is reporting information on the percentage of Indigenous staff that are hired, would the CBC and the SRC be agreeable to doing similar reporting with respect to the other -- with respect to employees from diverse backgrounds?

4446 MS. TAIT: Yes. Yes.

4447 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4448 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: And I think -- sorry. I think just to clarify for the record: As part of our proposal on hiring, whether it's new hires across the corporation, broken down, CBC, Radio-Canada, as well as -- so -- and also at the management level, so we have proposed that, and the underrepresented group's definition would be the one that is as -- the group's that are identified in the Employment Equity Act.

4449 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: But for clarity, it would also include persons who identify as LGBTQ?

4450 MS. TAIT: No, it would not. That's what we had said earlier, is that from our point of view, even though we gather that data, we are not -- we are encouraging the Commission to consider that because it is not reflected in the Employment Equity Act that we should not be reporting on that.

4451 COMMISSION ANDERSON: How does the CBC intend to ensure that its proposed reporting statistics will yield positive results? For example, diverse groups may feel that they are included and that their perspectives are considered in CBC programming.

4452 MS. TAIT: Well as we said, again, we -- our point of departure is that -- and back to the Chair's comment, "if you don't measure it it doesn't count", or -- I can't remember, I may have got that wrong. But our position is, our commitment is to ensure representation in our own workforce and in the programs that we commission; and therefore, by virtue of that, that is the most direct path to ensuring reflection of diverse points of view and diverse backgrounds of all Canadians. That -- I mean, unless the Commission has another methodology that they would like to suggest, this is the one that we believe will yield the best results.

4453 And we know it not -- this is not just a theoretical position. We know from our audience when they see themselves onscreen it has a powerful impact on them, or when they watch a show that speaks to their interests, it has a powerful impact. So just, you know, this is not an anecdotal methodology that we're proposing, it's from our point of view the most likely to succeed in achieving the goal and the objective that we're trying to achieve here, which is truly reflecting contemporary Canada.

4454 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: If that were the case, I wonder why or if the same could be true for the LGBTQ community?

4455 MS. TAIT: Well -- and as I -- as I indicated earlier, this is a debate. And just to be very clear, we do ask our employees to self-identify. It is one of the self-identified -- on the list of possible boxes to check. And we also have asked producers in the past to check those -- these boxes in their own -- they also have to submit diversity commitments.

4456 But it is becoming increasingly -- and I -- I was going to say if you have a young child, but perhaps that's not an appropriate question. But anybody who has a millennial child or a teenager in their home today would know that issues of sexual orientation and gender are almost irrelevant in many -- for many young people, and we are finding that even asking the question can be offensive to the group.

4457 Now, is that the -- is -- we know also at the same time that there are still issues of prejudice vis-à-vis LGBTQ2+. And you know, gender fluidity and all of that issue still does raise discriminatory issues.

4458 So we're really just appealing to the Commission to consider that it -- the appropriateness of this -- requesting that we report on this. We don't think that the information is going to be necessarily all that accurate, you know, and because of the Employment Equity Act, we -- we're actually discouraging this line of questioning. And maybe there's another way we can get at representation. I think probably among broadcasters we've done an enormously fabulous job in that regard, and -- but again, we're asking the Commission to consider dropping that particular line of questioning. And again, we can discuss it with staff. This comes from a really, just an open, honest experience in our own shop.

4459 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Sure. Sure. I think that everybody is open to the idea of trying to figure out a way that the corporation is meeting the needs and interests of all Canadians, so it's just figuring out how do we get there. But as long as everybody's on the same page, this is a conversation and a dialogue that we have to have while including people from the community because I think that we're all striving to meet the interests of everybody, so it's just figuring out how do we get there.

4460 Would the CBC or -- and SRC consider commissioning public opinion research to measure whether or not it's attaining the results -- adequate results?

4461 MS. TAIT: Claude, do you have an opinion on that?

4462 MR. GALIPEAU: With regards to reflection or ---

4463 MS. TAIT: Reflection ---

4464 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Reflection, yeah. Reflection.

4465 MR. GALIPEAU: Well, we already -- we poll, at the moment, on those matters, on reflection of diversity generally.

4466 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is this a part of the public perception ---

4467 MR. GALIPEAU: Yes, it is.

4468 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: --- survey?

4469 MR. GALIPEAU: Yes.

4470 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Just on that note, I spoke with staff at the break, and I don't think that we have the report on the record. And while we looked at the annual report that you've referred to, we only see snippets of the survey found throughout the report.

4471 So just for clarity, I was wondering if we could please just get the full report in its entirety because we've been relying on it a lot and, to the extent that it's helpful in showing that you're meeting the needs for local programming and diversity. It would -- it's beneficial to all if we all are in agreement that we all have the same document.

4472 MR. GALIPEAU: Sure.

4473 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: If I might, I think that was an undertaking that we had agreed to on a previous day, maybe yesterday or the day before, that we would provide it to the Commission.

4474 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4475 MR. GALIPEAU: It's on our list.

4476 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Better safe than sorry, is my mantra.

4477 Okay. So that's the end of the questions for this section.

4478 I do have a proposed undertaking. It might seem at times redundant because you've been very cooperative and agreeable to providing reporting that I've asked for, but I just think that it's helpful to be clear that we are on the same page.

4479 So at the risk of sounding repetitive, I'm going to ask for an undertaking that you agree to file a complete list of the CBC and SRC's various employment categories with direct responsibility for programming, for instance, executives, senior management, editorial staff, junior staff, and the ones that you intend to report on and then also the total number of employees with direct responsibility for programming at the CBC and SRC, of which we ask you to identify the employment totals of its permanent, part-time and contract position, the number of members of diverse groups broken out by women, persons with disabilities, indigenous people, ethnic and multicultural groups and LGBTQ individuals as well as the total number of members of diverse groups broken out by women, people with disabilities, indigenous people, ethnic and multi-cultural grouops and persons who identify as LGBTQ who are employed within each of the above-mentioned employment categories, especially in leadership positions.

4480 UNDERTAKING / ENGAGEMENT

4481 MS. TAIT: Marco, do you have anything to comment on that, on that undertaking?

4482 M. DUBÉ: Je pense que… je pense que…

4483 Merci, Madame la Conseillère pour cette question. Je pense que ce que vous avez libellé comme catégories va beaucoup plus loin que ce que nous avons en tête pour le rapport qu’on voudrait vous soumettre.

4484 Et dans le fond, dans les rôles clés de programmation, il y a trois grandes catégories : y’a la catégorie des gestionnaires, donc le management; y’a la catégorie des personnes qui présentent le contenu en ondes – ça, c'est vraiment, donc, les animateurs, les annonceurs, les reporters –, donc eux jouent un rôle important parce qu’ils sont le visage, donc, qu’on a à l’antenne; et il y a la troisième catégorie qui est vraiment les rôles éditoriaux, donc affectateurs, réalisateurs, secrétaires de rédaction, donc les personnes qui écrivent les textes, qui prennent les décisions éditoriales. Et ce que nous pensons qui serait utile pour le CRTC, c’est vraiment de comprendre sur les rôles clés où sont ces trois groupes-là.

4485 Et nous… j’avais compris – et puis, Bev, tu peux me corriger –, mais j’avais compris que nous souhaitions la collaboration du personnel du CRTC pour vraiment s’entendre sur les catégories qui seraient les bonnes catégories pour vraiment arriver à ce que le CRTC souhaite obtenir comme mesures finalement de la diversité parmi les rôles clés de programmation dans l’organisation.

4486 Donc, avant qu’on mette dans le dossier cet engagement-là, je pense qu’il y a probablement une occasion vraiment de voir quelle est la réalité à l’interne de Radio-Canada et de CBC, quelles sont les attentes du CRTC, et puis qu’on puisse jumeler les attentes avec la réalité, parce que dans plusieurs cas, les rôles dont on a entendu parler, qui sont souvent des rôles à l’externe, ne veulent pas dire grand-chose à l’interne pour nous. Alors, il y a vraiment un besoin de travail de fond pour établir la liste adéquate des rôles pour bien répondre à votre demande, je pense, à ce moment-ci.

4487 Alors, je vais soumettre ça respectueusement à la conseillère à ce moment-ci par rapport à cet engagement-là.

4488 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So the portion, I guess, that -- or the section that you disagree with or that you hadn't been contemplating is which roles -- sorry, or have direct responsibility for programming, is that -- is that the ---

4489 MS. TAIT: It's that the -- first of all, we want to come to an agreement on what roles are we measuring in leadership decision-making roles.

4490 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right.

4491 MS. TAIT: And in audio, which we've offered up, those roles are completely different than what we have for audio-visual and what you have proposed.

4492 So we need to just do a little bit of work with staff to say, okay, in a radio show these are the people who make the decisions. I believe what we're trying to accomplish here is an undertaking of who's making the decisions, who's affecting the programming.

4493 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Right.

4494 MS. TAIT: That's what we're after.

4495 So it's just about getting the right language around that. The LGBTQ2+ issue still remains. And then the other piece of it is, we were looking at leadership because our understanding is you're trying to see where -- who's making the program decisions, how are we reflecting better Canadians' interests by having -- by knowing who's making those programming decisions.

4496 That we're entirely in agreement with.

4497 The other part of your request goes right through the organization in terms of every single employee. That's another matter, and I'm not sure what the objective of that particular request is.

4498 We do report on new hires every -- and that's -- there's lots of detailed information about that.

4499 So I'm not sure how does that feed into who's making programming decisions because the composition of our workforce is a -- you know, it's already public in terms of who the new hires are, but to get into that level of detail, I'm not sure how that would benefit, what it is the Commission is seeking.

4500 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I think that you're right about leadership, definitely. I just wonder if maybe having some information on editorial -- because having an editorial voice also seems to be a theme that we've fell back on when we're considering whether or not the broadcasting system is meeting the needs of Canadians and whether it's doing it in a way that's respectful and non-stereotypical.

4501 So I wonder if maybe leadership positions and editorial staff would be possible.

4502 M. DUBÉ: Oui. Bien, si je peux me permettre…

4503 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Of course.

4504 M. DUBÉ: Si je peux me permettre, Madame la Conseillère, donc, comme Catherine l’a dit, on a des données statistiques pour l’ensemble de la compagnie, alors ce qu’on veut maintenant, c'est vraiment avoir une sous-catégorie et être assez ciblé pour que ça ait une signification.

4505 Et donc que cette catégorie-là soit ciblée, c’est vraiment au niveau… y’a trois groupes importants : donc, les gestionnaires qui prennent les décisions de programmation; les rôles éditoriaux, donc ceux qui prennent les décisions éditoriales au quotidien dans la programmation, dans les nouvelles; et, ceux qui présentent les contenus, donc les personnalités à l’antenne, que ce soit les animateurs, les annonceurs, les présentateurs de nos bulletins de nouvelles. Et avec ces trois groupes-là, vous allez… je pense qu’on va avoir une sous-catégorie, un échantillon plus précis qui est vraiment au cœur de la prise de décision et de la présentation du contenu de CBC/Radio-Canada sur plateforme audio d’une part, audiovisuelle d’autre part.

4506 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And then just to confirm, then, would the numbers for each of those categories be separated?

4507 M. DUBÉ: Donc on aurait un ensemble pour CBC, pour Radio-Canada. Ensuite, pour le contenu audiovisuel, pour le contenu audio et pour chacun des quatre groupes d’équité en emploi tels que définis par la Loi de l’équité en emploi, donc personnes autochtones, personnes racisées…

4508 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Oh, and ---

4509 M. DUBÉ: … etcetera.

4510 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. And then would there be the employment -- I guess that was the one outstanding issue, then. Would there be a number that was separated for managers, one separated for the editorial role, and another separate number for persons developing the online content?

4511 M. DUBÉ: Il y aurait trois… il y aurait effectivement trois groupes : le personnel à l’antenne, le personnel éditorial et les gestionnaires.

4512 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I think that seems reasonable. And if I am mistaken, then I’m sure that staff will let me know.

4513 M. DUBÉ: Ça va nous faire plaisir d’avoir d’autres discussions, il n’y a pas de problème.

4514 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah, I think it’s important just to be on the same page. I’m happy that you are being patient with me, so thank you.

4515 Okay. Now, I’ve got some group-specific issues, and I’m going to go through the equity groups and talk about how we can ensure that CBC and SRC are best meeting the needs of these equity groups. And I’m going to try to skip over the parts that we’ve gone through as best I can. But this is a really important area, so I do want to give it the attention it deserves.

4516 This morning you spoke about the Women in Production -- Women in Broadcast Production Summit, where the CBC developed a Women in Production Action Plan, the CBC/CRC noted that it will maintain momentum and gender parity with this plan. They also made other commitments, or CBC also made other commitments to ensure to continue to measure gender parity and improve measurement tools to actively participate in forums, meetings, and workshops offered by other stakeholders in the industry; to continue to facilitate mentorship initiatives; and to develop initiatives to expand gender parity and create more opportunities for women beyond production roles, such as support employee resource groups including women and tech.

4517 In light of the above and in the context of the Action Plan, can you please identify the CBC/SRC’s plans going forward specifically how the CBC/SRC will continue the momentum of ensuring gender parity?

4518 MS. TAIT: Well, the first part of the question actually answered a lot of the second part, as it were, all of the activities that we do in the industry, whether it’s mentorship or industry development with women; whether we participate -- Barb and I just from -- as two examples, are involved in Women in Technology, or I guess they call it women in -- what do they all it now? It used to be Women in Communications and now it’s Women in Communications and Technology, we’re both very involved in that organization. And the same goes in the Francophone market; I’m engaged in a number or organizations there.

4519 Just from a -- again, from the top and then right through our organization, I’m very proud -- oh, my goodness, Madame Godi, c’est quoi… on a eu un certificat cette année, Marco?

4520 We were awarded, for the second year running, an excellence in women in leadership roles by -- I can’t believe I’m forgetting the name of it. Somebody should ---

4521 M. DUBÉ: Le titre, c’est Gouvernance au féminin, l’organisation.

4522 MS. TAIT: Voilà!

4523 M. DUBÉ: Un certificat de parité.

4524 MS. TAIT: So we got the platinum award for that. That’s an organization that advances women in leadership, not just in our industry but across many sectors in Canada, and we’ve now received that award two years in a row.

4525 We’re very, very much on top of it from a whole lot of what I would call just general mentorship and industry-relations point of view but also at the programming level, as I mentioned earlier, urging our production executives to work with the independent producers to ensure that we’re discovering new female talent across all of our programing, and the same goes at Radio-Canada.

4526 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Wonderful. Well, congratulations, and thank you for the response.

4527 Can you please identify the measurement tools that you use to measure gender parity, and how can those tools be improved?

4528 MS. TAIT: As I said earlier, we have -- we keep track of all of the talent in our shows, and maybe Bev can speak to the reporting that we do on that already with respect to women in production.

4529 And -- but, then again, also while she’s getting her mask off, we will -- we also report on, obviously, women across the organization, from an employment point of view.

4530 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: I’m not sure I have anything to add. What -- I think ---

4531 MS. TAIT: Well, it’s reporting on the roles that women are holding in our productions.

4532 MS. KIRSHENBLATT: So I think there is a bit of overlap, in terms of what we’ve proposed to report on, and I just wanted to highlight that.

4533 The -- following the Women in Production Summit and the voluntarily commitment that we made, we said that we would report on what our voluntary commitment was to report on, and that was just commissioned programming.

4534 Now, what we’ve said with respect to -- just before, we were talking about reporting on diversity and key leadership roles, and those included -- that also included women. So what we’ve said going forward is it would just be more all-encompassing. It would be women in inhouse and commissioned -- and, sorry; the commitment, the voluntary commitment was just audiovisual back two years ago. So now our proposal is much bigger; it’s audiovisual and audio, it’s inhouse and commissioned, and it’s across all our platforms. So in terms of what we’d be reporting on to the Commission, it would be everything that we currently are doing but a lot more. It would actually be everything and it wouldn’t be just women, it would be the other groups that are identified in the Employment Equity Act, so ---

4535 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Wonderful. That makes my next few questions quite a bit easier and more streamlined, so thank you.

4536 Let me see. You’ve identified plenty of forums in which the CBC participates. Are there any other forums that you have not yet mentioned relating to women or diversity in production or broadcasting, or media more generally, which you have not identified to this point?

4537 MS. TAIT: When you say, “forums” you mean where we interact with the community?

4538 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. So the commitment I understand that was made was to actively participate in forums, meetings, and workshops offered by other stakeholders in the industry in order to better share information and best practices and increase collaboration.

4539 MS. TAIT: Yes, there are -- and there's dozens of them.

4540 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4541 MS. TAIT: And I can’t even possibly list them all but I just think about, you know, Les Rencontres documentaires; there's every sector of the industry, whether it’s documentaries or drama or kids’ programming, has its own panel discussions and workshops and we -- and especially pre-COVID but even through COVID, we have been -- we hold workshops, we interact with producers and with the community on a -- I mean, on any number of industry-related events but also in public events.

4542 So I would say they are myriad, fair to say. I see Barb and Michel going yes.

4543 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: You’re meeting your goals.

4544 MS. TAIT: Yes, absolutely.

4545 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: That’s wonderful.

4546 And also, there was the goal that you set for yourself to facilitate mentorship initiatives. I was wondering if that is an ongoing endeavour?

4547 MS. TAIT: Absolutely, and I think we talked about the work that we do with the le Centre de formation in Regina, but also the NSI, the National Screen Institute, we have a very important program with that institution. We work with the Canadian Film Centre and with the similar organization in the French language market. We’re really -- we’re very, very embedded with all of the opportunities that present themselves, because we need the talent. As Barb said earlier, we -- or maybe it was Sally, we need that pipeline of talent. So it’s in our interest to reach out and to be connected with those kind of forums and to be able to develop internship opportunities.

4548 And I should just say, one of the ways that, you know, the Synergies program on the Radio-Canada side is so effective is what we’re talking about, is placing young people, or people who are interested in being in our industry, in actual production settings, meaningful mentorships for those, or stage. More then a mentorship I would call them stage, and what’s stage in English? An intern -- did I say internship? Yeah, sorry. I’m losing my mind here. Anyway, you get the drift. Apologies. I think I’m getting tired.

4549 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It’s a been long week.

4550 MS. TAIT: Well, you know I am a year older today, so that’s clearly downhill from here.

4551 MS. WILLIAMS: And don’t forget WIFT, Catherine. Don’t forget our commitment to WIFT.

4552 MS. TAIT: Thank you. Women in Film and Television. Yes, thank you.

4553 THE CHAIRPERSON: I might just interject.

4554 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Happy birthday.

4555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Claire, Commissioner Anderson, on your point of getting tired, perhaps we should take a 10-minute break at this point.

4556 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: We can take a break.

4557 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then get out last big breath for the end of the day. So Mme la secrétaire, return at 25 to.

4558 MS. ROY: Perfect.

4559 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much everyone.

--- Upon recessing at 4:24 p.m. /

L'audience est suspendue à 16 h 24

--- Upon resuming at 4:40 p.m. /

L'audience est reprise à 16 h 40

4560 MS. ROY: Mr. Chairman, we may continue. But before I would just like to announce that tomorrow morning we will start the hearing at 9:00 a.m. Thank you.

4561 THE CHAIRPERSON: Merci, Mme la secretaire. We’ll resume conversation with Commissioner Anderson. Please, go ahead.

4562 MS. TAIT: Mr. Chairman, would it be possible, because some people’s obligations, to know when we -- you expect to end today’s hearing?

4563 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was hoping to complete Commissioner Anderson’s questioning. I don’t know if we have a precise estimate, but I would guess something in the range of an hour from now. Commissioner Anderson, is that a reasonable approximation?

4564 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yeah. I can try and do it in less than an hour. We’ve just got three areas to cover now, the questions about the journalistic standards and practices, accessibility of programming, and then the ratings classification. So we might be able to do it in less than an hour.

4565 THE CHAIRPERSON: If that is a problem, Madam Tait, then we could fix a time and continue in the morning with this questioning. But let’s -- assuming that, then 5:30, 20 to 6:00 roughly. Is that acceptable?

4566 MS. TAIT: Yeah. I think people are just extremely tired from the day in front of the screen. So I’m just sensitive to people’s ---

4567 THE CHAIRPERSON: Understood. Well, we’ll see where we are at, let’s say at 5:30, and if we -- if we really feel we need to end for the day at that point, we will.

4568 MS. TAIT: Thank you.

4569 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I certainly understand the fatigue, both mental and visually. It is tough on the eyes to look at a screen all day. So Commissioner Anderson, please go ahead.

4570 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. This morning I discussed some recent event relating to news coverage of race related issues that have been making the headlines. I also referred to your -- the public apology in June 2020 for failing to meet the journalistic standards and practices for news on anti-racism. In light of that, the CBC has publicly acknowledged that it has heard that the journalistic standards and practices can “muzzle important voices and experiences”.

4571 Can you please provide details regarding what you have heard about the journalistic standards and practices preventing Black, Indigenous, and people of colour’s perspectives from being voiced? Were these issues raised during the process to revise the journalistic standards and practices in 2018? And yeah -- I’ll end my question there.

4572 MS. TAIT: If I may, I’m going to -- I believe we have covered a lot of this material already. So we talked at length about our journalistic standards and practices, and specifically how with the diversity and inclusion working group, we’re shining a lens on all of our policies, including the JSPs. That inquiry is being led by the two leaders of the -- our Editors in-Chief, Brodie Fenlon and Luce Julien.

4573 So I’m not sure that there’s much more to add to the record on that, to be honest. I think you’ve heard loud and clear that that’s something that is being reflected upon in consultation with our employees from those equity-seeking groups. So I believe I -- we have covered the subject.

4574 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And including employees from diverse backgrounds is pivotal and important ---

4575 MS. TAIT: They -- they are very much part of the process, absolutely.

4576 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Great. Wonderful. CBC Radio-Canada has itself noted that there might be a need to update the JSP to better consider the difficult balance of its definitions of objective, balance, fairness, impartiality and its goals of inclusion and being a part of the community and country it served. How do you intend to achieve that balance? What specific amendments need to be considered? And what is a good benchmark to measure the success?

4577 MS. TAIT: Just to be clear before I hand this to Brodie and Luce -- just to be clear, we -- and again, I think Brodie and Luce made this abundantly clear, is that we do not believe the JSPs themselves need to be amended. They were amended just a couple of years ago. The broad principles stand. What we’re talking about here is the interpretation and the implementation of those JSPs.

4578 So just to -- if you had a chance to read them, you’ll see they’re very big, kind of broad, operating directives, and it’s how they are being interpreted by the teams at -- in the newsrooms under Luce and Brodie’s direction. So maybe…

4579 Luce, to peux commencer.

4580 Ensuite, Brodie, maybe you’d like to follow up also. Thank you.

4581 Mme JULIEN: Merci. Merci, Catherine.

4582 Madame la Conseillère, j’entends bien votre question puis elle est extrêmement importante puisque, comme je le disais ce matin, c’est sûr que l’affaire George Floyd a suscité beaucoup de discussions, de réflexion, et je pense que tout ça, c’est sain, justement, dans toutes les rédactions, la nôtre aussi, mais principalement du côté des rédactions américaines, et je crois du côté aussi de CBC, j’en ai beaucoup discuté avec Susan et Brodie.

4583 Masi comme le disait très, très bien Madame Tait, je ne crois pas que le problème en soi soit les normes et pratiques journalistiques – et Brodie pourra vous l’expliquer aussi –, mais beaucoup plus la notion comment effectivement on peut interpréter dans certaines circonstances le vécu, le vécu personnel de certains de nos employés, comment ils peuvent exprimer par exemple une certaine souffrance, mais si on reprend vraiment le Guide des normes et pratiques journalistiques, comme disait Madame Tait, il couvre un très, très large éventail partant des cinq grandes valeurs, donc : l’équité, l’équilibre, l’intégrité, et donc… il m’en manque deux là, parce que moi aussi je suis un peu fatiguée, je suis désolée, je vais vous les trouver rapidement, mais c'est cinq grands… l’exactitude évidemment, c’est cinq grands principes-là balisent la pratique de notre journalisme.

4584 Là où on doit effectivement encore faire plus d’efforts, comme je le disais ce matin, c’est sur la couverture des enjeux. Est-ce qu’on le fait assez? Peut-être pas. Alors, je pense qu’on doit encore s’améliorer de ce côté-là, intégrer davantage aussi nos journalistes issus des diverses communautés dans ces discussions-là, entendre leurs suggestions – ce qu’on fait déjà, cela dit, hein? Je veux dire, on couvre déjà les enjeux de plusieurs communautés, mais, en tout respect, comme disait Brodie ce matin, les normes et pratiques journalistiques ont été revues il y a deux ans; là, on est plus dans un mode de consultation auprès de nos employés.

4585 Du côté de Radio-Canada, on a fait un sondage à l’automne sur l’attachement, je dirais, je me permettrais de dire la notion d’attachement aux normes et pratiques journalistiques et comment c’était perçu, et donc… et nos journalistes tiennent beaucoup quand même à nos normes et pratiques journalistiques parce que c’est, encore une fois, un document qui est de très, très haut standard dans l’industrie des médias et ce qui n’empêche pas par ailleurs d’avoir des discussions encore une fois sur les questions d’inclusion et de couverture journalistique, les angles aussi qu’on peut donner à nos histoires. Parfois, on peut passer à côté d’un angle qui est plus inclusif, et c’est ça qu’il faut faire.

4586 Et évidemment, je suis en discussion avec Susan et Brodie sur ces questions-là et on est toujours nous aussi dans le mode… toujours en cours de discussion, et voilà.

4587 Je ne sais pas si Brodie veut compléter ma réponse. Merci.

4588 MR. FENLON: Thank you, Luce. Thank you, Commissioner.

4589 MS. TAIT: Brodie, we’ve got -- we’ve got the same --

4590 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: It’s distorted.

4591 MS. TAIT: Same problem with your mic, man. Why don’t you -- why don’t you see if you can reboot and we’ll come back to you? But I think what you’re -- I think we’ve probably answered the question sufficiently with Luce. And if Brodie has something else to add, he can do so later. Let’s just plow ahead, Commissioner, if you may?

4592 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: So to be clear then, are we contemplating, or is CBC contemplating not amending or changing the JSP at all, despite the fact that reporters have taken public stances and have terminated their jobs because they felt muzzled by the existing policy?

4593 MS. TAIT: We are -- we are not changing the current, recently revised JSPs. What we are doing is a very, very, you know, intensive internal look at the diversity and inclusion lens through which those JSPs are applied.

4594 Are you back to normal, Brodie?

4595 MR. FENLON: I am. Can you hear me?

4596 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Yes.

4597 MR. FENLON: The pleasures of Zoom.

4598 So Commissioner, what I was going to add was simply that, yes, we’re in the middle of the process. You’ve heard pieces of it.

4599 For example, on our consultation with CBC staff, we have a working group that is looking at police reporting. So it’s not so much about the JSP in that case. It is about are we too deferential to police narratives when we first encounter a story that involves police and racialized communities? Should we take a step back and test those narratives?

4600 We have another group that is looking at point of view and expression of opinion.

4601 So those are the kinds of questions that we’re tackling.

4602 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Could you elaborate a little bit on the point of view and expression of opinion, because I understood that that was one of the areas that Indigenous and Black reporters really felt as though they were muzzled. And I read somewhere on that -- and now there’s been so many materials, that I can’t recall where.

4603 But journalists expressed the view that they felt -- some Black journalists expressed the view that they felt as though they couldn’t say something like Black Lives Matter or attend a Black Lives Matter rally for fear of losing their job or being in contravention of the policy. That is almost dehumanizing, if that’s the case.

4604 I am just wondering how do we address that perspective?

4605 MR. FENLON: Yes, Commissioner, that’s exactly the work we are talking about. So we have principles that we are very careful about expressing opinion on matters of public controversy or politics.

4606 Maybe I’ll just step back a bit to give you sort of the -- I hope to be able to articulate the complexity of this issue, and then what we’re trying to address.

4607 We heard earlier this week about concerns that have been filed in interventions with the Commission around bias. And I’ve explained that bias is absolutely a preoccupation of ours because it’s imbedded in our JSP that our journalism is fair, balanced, impartial.

4608 And our audience is Canadians who we serve; all Canadians of every belief, race, every group of politics. We serve all Canadians. And they demand that when we approach a story, we will be honest brokers in our coverage.

4609 So the promise as a journalist working for CBC is that we are not driven by any agenda or personal interest. And we hear from Canadians all the time. You know, it’s don’t tell me what to think. Give me the facts. Give me the context. Let me know what other Canadians think and then I will make up my mind.

4610 So this is easy with the obvious stuff. I can tell you today that the weather in Toronto is miserable and has been this week. And that’s an opinion that will not affect your perception of our journalism.

4611 And it’s obvious on the tough stuff. So I am not going to tell you -- lash out at a politician or carry a campaign sign for a political party in my neighbourhood, because that would raise the question in your mind of bias. It would make you question the journalism.

4612 And where is the complexity? It’s all the shades of grey in between. And so we’re having this conversation, you’re right; some of our staff said in that moment after the killing of George Floyd, the concern was, what can I say about what happened here? What can I say about my own lived experience with racism, and am I crossing one of these lines around impartiality?

4613 And frankly, the definition and the specificity around those principles maybe aren’t articulated clearly enough. So we are going to help our staff and, with our staff’s input, try to draw out some clearer lines about what do we mean when we say, “you can’t express an opinion on matters of public controversy”? And does it apply in this case? Maybe not. Does it apply in this case? Yes, in terms of political coverage, yes.

4614 So that’s the work we’re in the middle of, if that makes sense.

4615 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Is part of the examination potentially looking at the way that CBC has interpreted the JSP and reconsidering whether or not it meets the needs specifically of its Black, Indigenous, and employees of colour?

4616 MR. FENLON: Well, yes, it is a full examination of where do these principles cause issues. Or, and let’s be honest, the JSP has to be interpreted and applied every day, in multiple newsrooms by multiple people.

4617 So it doesn’t live with one person. Everyone is expected to live up to the JSP. And we have a lot of people. And within that system, there can be multiple interpretations of what these principles mean.

4618 So I think this is when I say there’s a gap perhaps in a shared understanding, a shared alignment around these principles, we’re working on clarifying some of that.

4619 But frankly, a lot of what has emerged in this broad consultation with our staff is issues outside of those principles. As I said, hiring and promotion. Who is leading the story conversation? Who is not at the story table?

4620 And you’ve heard today a number of measures that CBC and Radio-Canada are taking to address those broader issues around workplace culture, hiring and promotion, training and mentorship.

4621 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that.

4622 Is there going to be any kind of reporting as a result from the consultations done with respect to the JSP?

4623 MR. FENLON: I can give you a timeline or a sort of next steps. So the consultation continues this month. It will probably carry into February.

4624 In fact, we had hoped to have it done sooner but our employees told us, we need more time. These are such meaningful conversations we don’t want to rush it.

4625 So we’re not going to rush it. We expect to be -- recommendations and feedback brought back to us in early February. And then I will be meeting with my colleagues at Radio-Canada, and we will be discussing next steps and what we do next.

4626 MS. TAIT: If I may, Commissioner, just to be very clear, the implementation and the interpretation of the JSP resides with our news leadership and operates at arm’s length from management and government.

4627 So this is extremely important that whereas the Board of Directors does approve changes to the JSPs, it is extremely important that we are respectful of Luce and Brodie’s process. This is -- they own it and they are professionals of an unbelievable high standard, and they are entrusted with this work. And they report, they tell us about it, and they tell us what’s going on. And they’ve involved the diversity and inclusion working group.

4628 But it is really, really important that the management of our news and these kinds of decisions really come up from the news team and not from above.

4629 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4630 MS. TAIT: Or from any other organization for that matter.

4631 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4632 And so we’ve talked about the internal consultation session.

4633 Christine Genier spoke about feeling as though the JSP muzzles important voices and experiences.

4634 How has this consultation process been designed to ensure that the important voices and experiences have a meaningful role in reviewing the JSP?

4635 MR. FENLON: Our consultation on the CBC side was open to anyone who raised their hand and wanted to be a part of it.

4636 And in fact, a number did and then we went out and sought out others and voluntold them to participate. So we went -- we were broad in our approach and of course, beyond this, we have conversations with our staff every day.

4637 I meet monthly with other members of the news team with our diversify ERG, so that they have a connection to the news leadership in news, current affairs, and local.

4638 There is a constant conversation and feedback process, but in terms of the JSP work that we’re doing, that was the process.

4639 Mme JULIEN: Peut-être que je peux ajouter que du côté de Radio-Canada, nous avons donc procédé à un sondage à la fin… au mois d’octobre, si je me rappelle bien, ou fin octobre début novembre, auprès des journalistes donc du Service d’information nationale de qui je suis responsable mais aussi auprès de tous les reporters des régions sous Jean-François Rioux de même que des journalistes qui travaillent du côté radio, du côté des sports. Et donc, on a mené ce sondage par une firme indépendante sur des questions, justement, touchant à la fois les notions effectivement d’impartialité mais d’inclusion et comment les journalistes voyaient aujourd’hui, en 2020, l’importance des normes et pratiques journalistiques.

4640 Parce que la notion de confiance des citoyens, elle est beaucoup basée sur les cinq valeurs dont on parle tout le temps depuis le début de la semaine : l’impartialité, l’intégrité, l’équité, l’équilibre et l’exactitude. Et lorsqu’hier ou avant-hier, je parlais de l’importance du rôle dans notre processus, le rôle très important de l’ombudsman et je peux vous le dire et le redire : je reçois, je vois toutes les plaintes des citoyens qui sont déposées auprès de l’ombudsman parce que j’y tiens, parce que pour moi, c’est comme une connexion, une connexion avec le public, une connexion avec le citoyen.

4641 Et dès qu’il y a une perception – parce qu’on dit souvent « perception is reality » - dès qu’on a une perception d’un biais chez un journaliste, peu importe lequel, les citoyens sont mal à l’aise. Ils croient en Radio-Canada, ils ont confiance en le diffuseur public et c’est la marque, je le répète – CBC/Radio-Canada est la marque de confiance la plus importante au pays. Alors, c’est pour ça que comme disait Brody, j’ai beaucoup aime ce que Brody a dit, nous sommes dans des nuances de gris, des nuances où ce qui est le plus important, c’est que notre personnel journalistique se sente totalement inclus, sentent qu’ils peuvent aussi grandir dans la société, grandir à Radio-Canada, couvrir les enjeux qu’ils souhaitent couvrir. Mais ce n’est pas par le biais des normes et pratiques journalistiques qu’on va réussir ça. Nos normes sont là pour justement, que le public ait confiance. Mais la discussion doit continuer avec l’ensemble de nos employés, par ailleurs.

4642 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: But, presumably, confidence in the Corporation might be affected if your reporters say that they feel muzzled. So it’s about striking that balance.

4643 Mme JULIEN: Je comprends, mais je vais me permettre juste de peut-être faire la distinction : on choisit ce métier-là, c’est comme être un peu un juge. On choisit le métier de journaliste pour traiter les faits, faire de l’analyse et avoir un devoir de réserve, c’est certain, parce que je reviens à la notion de biais ou de partialité potentielle; encore une fois, on est dans les nuances de gris. Mais je peux vous dire que les citoyens sont très, très attachés à ces normes-là, ce qui n’empêche pas, par ailleurs – et comme disait Brody tout à l’heure, on est dans des nuances de gris : si une personne veut être interviewée pour raconter qu’elle a eu une situation difficile, c’est autre chose. On a du jugement; c’est une question de jugement éditorial.

4644 Et vous savez, le journalisme, je dis souvent à mes journalistes : si le journalisme était simple comme – en tout respect pour mes collègues qui sont comptables – deux plus deux égale quatre, ma vie serait beaucoup plus simple. Mais j’ai choisi ce métier-là parce que justement, il est passionnant, les questions sont complexes et ce n’est pas noir et gris.

4645 Mais ce qui est clair, c’est que c’est important, pour garder la confiance du public lui-même, que nos normes et pratiques journalistiques soient bien respectées.

4646 MR. FENLON: Commissioner, maybe I’ll just add that one of the great privileges we have are our airwaves and our website and the platforms we have to do news, and we can be very effective in questions of human rights and race by doing journalism on these stories. And this drives us, and if you pay attention to our programming you will see how much work we do in terms of journalists on the reporting and the surfacing of these views and opinions.

4647 So there are two components to this, it is how we practice our journalism, what we look like on the inside, and it is very much what we do every day in our journalism.

4648 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. All right.

4649 In terms of your ongoing conversations with your employees with respect to the JSP, what areas in particular have been raised by employees of colour and other employees as needing clarification in their interpretation?

4650 MR. FENLON: Well, I think -- I’ll go first. I mean, so for example we have a group that’s looking at language. We capitalized “Black” earlier this year in part of our language guide; looking at things such as the use of sports teams’ names that may be offensive to certain communities. So there's a language component. Always there are questions. Every day we have questions with staff about conflicts of interest, expressing opinion, outside activities; you know, can I be on this Board or not? Can I take part in this rally or not? And we are used to dealing with these questions every single one is different, one on one, but those are the kinds of things when we talk about the JSP specifically, and then I think I’ve given other examples where it’s much broader than that.

4651 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4652 MS. TAIT: And perhaps also the use of social media, I think, Brodie, is a big one.

4653 MR. FENLON: Yeah.

4654 MS. TAIT: The reality of entire news gathering and noise around news; Twitter has become such a driver, so I think that’s where a lot of our journalists are seeking guidance and clarification on what they can -- they often, many of our journalists have thousands of followers, so they also have a big influence. So that would be another point.

4655 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you. And part of ensuring that there is representation of diversity in leadership positions, or behind in editorial positions, is an acknowledgment that when people come from diverse backgrounds, they come with a unique perspective that might not be shared by non-racialized individuals. And, of course, individuals from diverse backgrounds ought not to be penalized for having a different perspective or opinion. I presume that that’s the case?

4656 MR. FENLON: Oh yeah. I mean, lived experience enriches coverage, it enriches and deepens our journalism. The more people and the more we embrace inclusion and diversity in our journalist and reporting ranks, the better our journalism will be. So that is absolutely the goal and why so much of the work we’re doing is important.

4657 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you.

4658 Mme JULIEN: Complètement d’accord avec Brodie.

4659 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay.

4660 Those are the questions on diversity, except for one question that I had that was just remaining. And it was about -- it was about the makeup or the composition of the senior executive team. And while I began by acknowledging that half of the senior executive team that was introduced on Monday is women, and that is a fact to be celebrated, there is a criticism that there might not be as much diversity at the senior executive level as one might hope. And I was wondering if there have been -- I was wondering what your views are on that and if there's been any progress to including a Black or Indigenous or a person of colour or a person of disability at the senior executive level? And what would change if that inclusion occurred?

4661 MS. TAIT: I think you’ve heard from all of the leadership that we all believe that we would be enriched not just by a diversity of experience but by a diversity -- the point of all diversity brings richness and changes the conversation at the management table. And I certainly take responsibility for the lack of diversity at the current senior management table.

4662 Part of our commitment to -- on a going-forward basis is to ensure that all senior hires, including senior executive, will -- 50 percent of any new hires will be from the employment equity-seeking groups that we’ve described.

4663 So, you know, again, not to say that -- I mean, obviously I can’t eliminate the people that are there, that wouldn’t be fair. But I can say that on all new hires, we have made that commitment as well, it extends to the senior executive as well.

4664 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you, Ms. Tait. You’ve made that commitment on behalf of gender and it’s obviously has tangible results, and so when you say that you make that commitment in terms of other diversity groups or equity groups, that’s not lost on me, so thank you for making that commitment.

4665 MS. TAIT: I actually should say there was no existing commitment to gender in the Corporation; it took 50 years. So our commitment is to a much more accelerated one by setting a target that I’ve just described to you.

4666 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Thank you for that.

4667 Those are my questions on diversity. I’ve got a few questions on accessibility of programming, and then the ratings classification.

4668 Should I continue, Mr. Chair?

4669 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can. I’m going to -- actually, unusual as this may seem, I may turn it to you, Madam Tait. We can go to 5:30 and have a hard stop then, and if we are not finished, we’ll pick it in the morning, or if you and your team would really prefer to end now and pick it up tomorrow, I have no difficulty with that. It has been a long day and we are looking at screens throughout the day. What would be your preference?

4670 MS. TAIT: I have to be honest with you, Mr. Chairman, I would prefer to wrap now. I think our people are very tired. And I’m thinking the Commissioners are looking a little fatigued as well, so in the interest of human happiness and health, I would suggest that we regroup refreshed tomorrow, if that’s okay with everybody.

4671 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have no difficulties with that.

4672 MS. TAIT: Thank you.

4673 THE CHAIRPERSON: It has been a long hearing day. I appreciate your patience, perseverance, and cooperation.

4674 So Madam Secretary.

4675 THE SECRETARY: Perfect. We will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

4676 Demain matin, à 9h.

4677 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci beaucoup, Madame. Bonne fin de journée.

4678 Mme ROY : Merci!

--- Upon adjourning at 5:12 p.m./

L’audience est ajournée à 17h12

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