ARCHIVED - Transcript, Hearing 15 May 2012

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Volume 7, 15 May 2012



To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2012-126, 2012-126-1, 2012-126-2 and 2012-126-3


Room 200 ABC

Allstream Centre

105 Princes' Boulevard

Toronto, Ontario

15 May 2012


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission


To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2012-126, 2012-126-1, 2012-126-2 and 2012-126-3


Len KatzChairperson

Candice MolnarCommissioner

Peter MenziesCommissioner

Marc PatroneCommissioner

Tom PentefountasCommissioner

Stephen SimpsonCommissioner

Louise PoirierCommissioner


Lynda RoySecretary

Crystal HulleyLegal Counsel

Lyne CapeHearing Manager


Room 200 ABC

Allstream Centre

105 Princes' Boulevard

Toronto, Ontario

15 May 2012

- iv -






23. MZ Media Inc.1594 / 9961


3. Adina Lebo1608 /10021

1. CARP — A New Vision of Aging for Canada1611 /10037

2. Paul Hoffert1614 /10053


24. La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto inc.1674 /10386


25. Société Radio-Canada1746 /10842


26. Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc.1788 /11086


1. WEGZ Stadium Bar1811 /11215

2. Taibu Community Health Centre1814 /11229

3. Black Business and Professional Association1818 /11246




5. Durham Radio Inc.1853 /11474

9. Family FM Inc.1861 /11516

13. Tosan Lee, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated1853 /11474

19. 8041393 Canada Inc.1870 /11572

- vi -



Undertaking1836 /11360

Toronto, Ontario

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 at 0903

9957   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Madam Secretary. Good morning, everybody. Can we begin, please?

9958   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9959   We will start today with item 23 on the Agenda, which is an application by MZ Media Inc. to amend the broadcasting licence of the English-language AM radio programming undertaking CFZM Toronto to add a nested FM transmitter in Toronto to broadcast the programming of CFZM.

9960   Mrs. Monique Lafontaine will introduce MZ Media's panel to start with. You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.


9961   MS LAFONTAINE: Merci.

9962   Good morning, Mr. Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff. My name is Monique Lafontaine and I am General Counsel and Vice-President of Regulatory and Business Affairs at ZoomerMedia Ltd.

9963   Before beginning our presentation this morning I would like to introduce the members of our panel. They are:

9964   - to my left, Moses Znaimer, Founder, ZoomerMedia Ltd. and MZ Media Inc. Moses has a legendary broadcasting career as cofounder and creative force behind Citytv, MuchMusic, MusiquePlus, Bravo!, Space, Pulse 24 and more than a dozen other television stations and specialty channels. In 2008 Moses acquired CHWO AM 740 and reinvented it as CFZM Zoomer Radio.

9965   - to Moses' left is George Grant. George is President and CEO of MZ Media Inc., the licensee of The New AM 740. George's career in radio spans close to five decades. He has done every job that can be done in radio and has owned and operated two of his very own successful radio stations in the GTA.

9966   - to George's left is Dan Hamilton, Vice-President, Broadcast Sales. For over 25 years Dan has worked in sales and sales management at all levels of radio and television, including local, regional and national. As a result of his extensive career at Citytv, CHUM Limited and MZ Media Inc., Dan understands the Toronto advertising market very well.

9967   - to my right is Mark Lewis, our external regulatory counsel. Mark has worked in radio for over 40 years and is that rare lawyer with a good knowledge and understanding of engineering.

9968   - to Mark's right is John van Driel. John is Vice President Programming and Operations as well as an on-air host at MZ Media. He has 29 years of experience in this market, from music selection to sales to management and everything in between.

9969   - and to John's right is Libby Znaimer, Vice-President of News and Information for AM 740 and Classical 96.3 FM. Libby has three decades front-line reporting experience in Canada, the U.S. and the Middle East with Reuters, NBC, Global and Citytv. Libby has crafted a news package designed for our older demographic and herself hosts and produces the "Zoomer Report" and the "Zoomer Week in Review."

9970   - in the back row on the far right is McLean Grieves, Vice-President of Digital Media with our organization. McLean is responsible for our integrated digital strategy, including Web, mobile, social media and IT infrastructure covering radio, television and print media lines.

9971   Our interveners are:

9972   - Susan Eng, VP Advocacy for CARP, A New Vision of Aging for Canada. Under Susan's leadership, CARP Advocacy has helped to shape the public discourse on key issues such as pension reform, mandatory retirement, workplace age discrimination, home care and age-friendly cities. Susan is the former Chair of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board, a former tax lawyer and prominent activist.

9973   - Paul Hoffert, who will be here shortly, is a composer, producer, conductor and the leader of the famous Canadian rock band Lighthouse. Paul is also a Digital Media Professor at York University, Chair of Screen Composers Guild of Canada, Chair of the Bell Broadcast and New Media Fund and President of the Glen Gould Foundation.

9974   - and finally, Adina Lebo, who is an advocate for Canadian Zoomers, a longtime resident of the City of Toronto and a fan of AM 740. She is unable, however, to receive our station signal in her home due to signal interference.

9975   Moses...?

9976   MR. ZNAIMER: Good morning.

9977   This is what we are are trying to accomplish with our application for a nested FM. We seek a technical amendment to our existing licence that will allow us to double illuminate the signal of AM 740 on 88.1 FM and thereby assure the future of a legacy radio station that has been on air here in Toronto for over 50 years and which otherwise is threatened by unforeseeable circumstances beyond its control.

9978   First, we want to preserve the 3 share our unique service to older Torontonians currently enjoys. We are not talking about a prospective audience but an actual and substantial one amounting to a weekly reach of 620,000 listeners. In the Toronto CMA, where 343,000 of those listeners reside, that audience is being relentlessly chipped away by an increasingly serious reception issue made suddenly urgent by an extraordinary building boom now under way.

9979   Second, we want to repatriate a substantial new audience, a number we estimate to be as large as 126,000, that long ago gave up trying to listen to music on AM because of its low fidelity and the fact that it's not in stereo or that doesn't listen because they no longer even own AM receivers.

9980   Third, we must protect ourselves against a doomsday scenario in which you give this unexpected last Toronto FM to CBC French Radio, thereby relieving CBC of the obligation to run its transmission facility at Hornby, where we have a licence to transmit but no lease and which sits on a 50-acre parcel of increasingly valuable land just east of Milton, the fastest-growing community in Ontario.

9981   Even if you don't move Radio Canada's AM 860, come 2021 or before, our AM goose may well be cooked because, as Mark Lewis will explain, there are literally no alternatives to that site and a financially pressed and suddenly desperate CBC may walk away from its obligations so that they can cash in on the land.

9982   Commissioners, we are the voice of a new phenomenon, a new generation. They are the 45-plus Boomers with Zip, or Zoomers, a word I coined and that my company has popularized. As the youngest of the baby boomers is today 45, while the oldest is 65, Zoomers can be further segmented. Thus, our classical music station's demographic sweet spot is 45-65, while 740 is powerful with the 65-plus.

9983   These older segments of the population are today still largely ignored even though they are the fastest-growing demographic in the GTA and in the country and will only get bigger over the coming years as 1,000 Boomers a day turn 65 every day for the next 20 years.

9984   There are currently about 800,000 people over the age of 65 in the Toronto GTA, or 13 percent of the population. It is expected that this group will increase to 1.4 million over the next 15 years.

9985   AM 740 also speaks to the 45-plus. That segment represents about 2.3 million in the GTA today and over the next 15 years will account for about 3.1 million people.

9986   Within only four to five years, 2016 or 2017, there will be more people over the age of 65 than children under the age of 14, the first time in history. In other words, in the GTA, as in Canada, as in most of the developed world, the younger demos are on the decline while the mature demos are about to double in size.

9987   MR. GRANT: And yet, when you look at the target audiences for all existing FMs and almost all of the proposed new ones, what you see is a system wildly out of balance, almost entirely devoted to two segments of the population, with the 18-34s and the 25-54's overserved and nothing much at all for the under 18 or the over 55.

9988   We have prepared a chart that shows the Toronto radio market as segmented by target audience. You will find that chart attached to our presentation.

9989   No less than 15 of the existing Toronto stations are vying for the under 45 demo, most of which are owned by the large vertically integrated companies, while a mere four stations hold some interest for the 45 to 55. Only our New Classical 96.3 FM deliberately serves the over-55 crowd and only AM 740 on the right of the chart serves the 65-plus demographic.

9990   As for the new applicants, not one is proposing to serve the 65-plus audience. It is one thing to attract some older listeners with your music or talk, it's quite another to furnish these listeners with the detailed information and advice they need to live their aging lives better and do that all day, every day.

9991   MR. VAN DRIEL: AM 740 offers a format unduplicated in Toronto in every respect. We broadcast extensive and varied spoken word and vintage music from the '30s and '40s to the '70s. And all of the content, the music, news, information, advocacy, health, finance and retirement planning, is specifically tailored for and targeted to the 65-plus.

9992   This is not a jukebox station but a full-service radio station that creates unique and original programming for our core audience. At the same time, our music playlist adds extensive depth and diversity to the radio waves in our city. No less than 90 percent of the music that we broadcast is unduplicated by any other radio station in Toronto. We also originate live music at our station, which is pretty much unheard of in radio today.

9993   We believe that radio has an important role to play in fostering Canadian talent. We do this through musical airplay, artist interviews, arts events billboards, live concerts and interactive content, and also propose, over and above the required basic annual financial contribution, to spend an additional $1 million for Canadian Content Development.

9994   MS ZNAIMER: AM 740 offers a comprehensive and calm news and information package specifically designed for the 65-plus. We air 106 five-minute newscasts each week in addition to 44 "Zoomer Reports" focused on health, 20 business and market reports and the weekly half-hour "Zoomer Week In Review." In total, we broadcast 45 hours per week of spoken word, including 10 hours of our call-in consumer advocacy show "Goldhawk Fights Back."

9995   AM 740 is highly engaged in the community. For instance, our "Team Zoomer" has raised nearly $150,000 in support of Princess Margaret Hospital. We support many local organizations such as Casey House, the Humane Society, Soulpepper Theatre and our own "Holiday Hope Fund" which helps those in financial need during the holiday season.

9996   We are also working very closely with Baycrest to develop a new online dementia diagnostic and to disseminate that knowledge widely. This is a very important topic for our listeners and for their children.

9997   MR. HAMILTON: We operate in the Toronto market every day with AM 740 and The New Classical 96.3 FM. We know this market very well. The demand for our station is demonstrated by real numbers and our revenue projections are based on the reality of this market.

9998   Our analysis projects that if we are granted 88.1 our audience will increase by about 20 percent in Toronto.

9999   With improved signal quality and increased audience, our ad sales are also projected to grow. Our current advertising partners have told us they would buy more AM 740 if we had a better signal and potential new advertisers have told us that they would begin to buy 740 if the signal issues were resolved.

10000   In addition to 1,000 heartfelt letters from the general public, which I have here today, 19 interventions from the advertising community were specifically filed in support of our application.

10001   Most importantly, this increased ad revenue that we project will have negligible impact on the Toronto radio market. We anticipate a modest 390,000 in year one and just under $2 million in total over the first licence term. This is less than 1 percent of the market's revenue and will in no way destabilize a Toronto market that is dominated by Corus, Rogers, Bell/Astral, but on which smaller operators also depend.

10002   We have reviewed the competing radio applications and note that most have significantly overstated the future of the Toronto radio market and their ability to succeed here.

10003   Down 10 percent from historic highs in 2007, over the last year or two this market has seen, and we anticipate will continue to see, very modest growth in the 1 to 2 percent range.

10004   In fact, the most recent TRAM report for Toronto from September 2011 to April 2012 indicates that the Toronto market is down a bit or, at best, is flat, and with political upheaval spreading in Europe and all three levels of government imposing austerity in Canada, this is not a good time to launch a new radio station in Toronto, let alone those projecting revenues in the $5 million to $16 million range.

10005   MR. LEWIS: In 2008, at the time that MZ Media acquired the station, we attempted to engage the CBC in negotiations relative to the station's long-term use of the transmission facilities and the right to acquire this property should they wish to sell. We contacted the CBC but were completely rebuffed by management, who refused to meet with us, much less engage in any negotiations.

10006   There is no potential to relocate the transmitting antenna to Toronto or to the GTA.

10007   The City of Toronto has determined that the Toronto Island AM Radio site cannot be expanded and the City of Toronto Telecommunications Protocol does not permit relocation of our facilities. There is no land available in the region that could be utilized for AM. Likewise, there are technical and land planning use issues outside of Toronto that would not lead to an alternative siting for the transmitter.

10008   Our concerns about the loss of the transmission facilities are well founded. You are aware that the CBC's over-the-air French-language TV services are being shut down outside of Quebec. The CBC has also published a detailed response to the March 2012 Federal Budget. In it the CBC says it will "move away from owning real estate." The sale of this valuable real estate is, in our view, inevitable given the CBC's financial dilemma.

10009   We have thoroughly explored every technical option and can say with great certainty there is no other option for AM 740. I trust you will ask me questions about this so I can elaborate in detail.

10010   We would now like to play a nine-minute video that highlights the extent of our technical issues and the depth and diversity of programming operated by AM 740.

--- Video presentation

10011   MS LAFONTAINE: Commissioners, we submit that granting 88.1 to AM 740 makes the highest and best use of this frequency. It will preserve a literally unique service to an already significant and exponentially growing segment of the population that no one else in this market is serving, or that any other applicant at this hearing is proposing to serve.

10012   Our musical content is unduplicated and the breadth of our spoken word content unmatched.

10013   Section 3(1)(i) of the Broadcasting Act states:

"...the programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system should be varied and comprehensive, providing a balance of information, enlightenment and entertainment for men, women and children of all ages..."

10014   This, of course, includes the 65-plus segment of Toronto's population, and so you should be guided by Parliament's wishes and license our application.

10015   That concludes our presentation. We would be pleased to answer your questions.

10016   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Ms Lafontaine.

10017   We will now proceed with your intervenors in support, CARP - A New Vision of Aging for Canada.

10018   I understand that Mr. Paul Hoffert is not here yet. He may be here before the end of the presentation.

10019   And we have Ms Adina Lebo.

10020   You have ten minutes as a panel. Please introduce yourselves before beginning your presentation. You may now proceed.


10021   MS LEBO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10022   For the record, my name is Adina Lebo, and I have spent my career in the arts and entertainment industry. I appear today in support of the application by MZ Media as a lifelong resident of Toronto, who lives in a high-rise building in midtown Toronto. In the video you saw it. I live at Bathurst and St. Clair.

10023   I also appear here today as the Chair of the Downtown Chapter of CARP, Canada's largest association for Canadians as we age.

10024   I also appear as someone who would dearly love to be able to listen to a clear and reliable signal from AM 740, Zoomer Radio.

10025   Finally, I appear as a representative of many, many members in the downtown Toronto CARP chapter of over 5,000 strong, most of whom are over 60, who feel the same way that I do. We are both irritated and frustrated by the poor signal quality of a station that speaks to and for us as Zoomers.

10026   As women live longer, we need access to intelligent radio programs, such as "From a Woman's Perspective", hosted by Marilyn Wetston, that provide us with essential information, covering topics such as health, nutrition, and management of our finances.

10027   But you have to understand that if you live in or around a high-rise building -- and new ones are popping up every day in Toronto -- or live in the core of the city, the heart of the city, for all intents and purposes, AM 740 doesn't exist.

10028   When a friend says, "Did you hear Susan Eng of CARP talking about elder abuse on Goldhawk's show the other day," or someone asks about the interview on frauds and scams in "Zoomer Week in Review", my frustration only increases.

10029   And when I ask one of my members whether they heard the announcement on AM 740 about our own chapter's event, the person shrugs and says, "Ah, you know, I don't even try to tune in any more because of the lousy reception."

10030   For me and thousands like me, it's like being the victim of a not so funny joke to know that there is an excellent radio station like AM 740 in our midst that only exists in theory and not in reality.

10031   I know there is lots of competition for the frequency, and in our youth-obsessed pop culture it is very easy to marginalize and overlook the needs and the interests of seniors. I honestly hope that that doesn't occur here.

10032   Young people today have their internet technology and mobile devices that give them unlimited access to their music and stations anywhere in the world.

10033   While I don't want to portray all seniors as technically challenged, for the most part we still rely on our traditional radios in our homes and our apartments for the local stations.

10034   In my personal experience, the variety of music broadcast on this radio station is intergenerational. Recently, while listening to the station with my mother and my niece, three generations of Toronto women, we heard the big band songs of my mother's youth, and the music of my youth, which coincided with Woodstock. And in the ensuing discussion, we each had a better appreciation of the common bonds that bind us.

10035   That's why I am here, to respectfully urge you to award this important 88.1 FM licence to MZ Media. It should be considered as an essential service. If you do that, we will be reconnected with the only radio station that programs music and talk specifically for us, and I assure you that you will be doing a great service for the tens of thousands of elderly Torontonians for whom Zoomer Radio is currently unavailable.

10036   Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.


10037   MS ENG: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Susan Eng, and I am Vice-President of Advocacy for CARP, a national, non-partisan, non-profit organization, with more than 300,000 members across the country, committed to advocating for A New Vision of Aging for Canada, social change that will bring financial security, equitable access to health care, and freedom from age discrimination.

10038   I am here to represent CARP and our members, more specifically those who live and work in the heart of Toronto.

10039   As an advocacy organization, we rely on a variety of media to reach our members, and older Canadians in general, on the issues that face an aging population. We are fortunate to have a connection with AM 740, as it helps us to reach out to engage Canadians in one of the most important dialogues of the day, those issues that affect our quality of life as we age -- financial security, health care, and ageism.

10040   I have been a guest on numerous occasions on AM 740's Goldhawk Fights Back and Zoomer Weekend review to keep Torontonians informed about what Carp is doing; our positions, our policies.

10041   And while AM 740's reach and listenership are wide-ranging, I know from personal as well as professional experience that the gap in the broadcast coverage is right here in the core of Toronto.

10042   Members and countless other seniors living in the centre of Toronto are left out, particularly those living in or near the growing number of condos and high-rise apartment buildings. Their reception of the station is either non-existent or so irregular and impaired that they don't tune in. My colleagues and I hear about their frustration and disappointment.

10043   Local radio is a vital link to the community for older Canadians generally, and AM 740 is a trusted source of news, information and music that has particular appeal for our membership and the demographic.

10044   The rapidly changing face of Toronto's urban landscape, especially in the vertical development in the core of the city over the past 20 years is having an increasingly negative impact on the reception of AM 740 for our members. There are in fact high densities of Torontonians, 65-plus, living in the heart of the city and they will be the ones most affected by the poor reception of AM 740.

10045   Now we realize that the changes in Toronto's built environment affect the natural development of the city. But an unintended consequence of the grassroots level is this steady and continued degradation of the AM 740 signal, a favourite of our members and increasingly a necessary service.

10046   The signal problem is bad enough now and affects enough people right now but it will steadily worsen as Toronto's vertical growth continues and the coverage problem can be corrected by adding the FM signal.

10047   As an advocate for the needs and interests of older Canadians, we support this application as a means of addressing widespread and growing source of exclusion for our members and the again demographic in Toronto who want and need news and information that will affect their lives as they are living it.

10048   For countless numbers of our membership, especially those who stay close to home who rely on the radio for enjoyment and to stay connected to the world, AM 740 is a valued and unique personal and community resource.

10049   For many, AM 740 is the only station that addresses their interests and their needs for them. You could say that AM 740 is tantamount to an essential service.

10050   That's why I'm here to support the application here today and to urge you to award this important 88.1 FM licence to MZ Media. You will be doing a great service to tens of thousands of older Torontonians for whom Zoomer Radio is currently unavailable.

10051   Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Commissioners. I would be happy to answer your questions.

10052   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hoffert, please?


10053   MR. HOFFERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10054   For the record, my name is Paul Hoffert. I'm a digital media professor at York University. I'm Chair of the Screen Composers Guild of Canada, Chair of the Bell Broadcast and New Media Fund, President of the Glenn Gould Foundation.

10055   And I'm also a working musician who performs regularly with my rock band as a jazz musician and in the various other genres generally in pop music that interest me.

10056   I'm appearing today in support of MZ Media's application in my capacity as a fan of AM 740 and as a person who is active and who has always been simpatico with my good friend for many years, Moses Znaimer.

10057   I'm also a very proud Zoomer. I noted in my written brief that it's on AM 740 that I still enjoy listening to some of my great influences in music, pop artists like Fats Domino and Little Richard who got me interested in music when I was young; jazz artists such as Milt Jackson, Moe Kaufman, Ed Bickert, the big band music and countless other artists from the fifties, sixties and seventies including my own band, Lighthouse, which I'm pleased to say still tours and performs.

10058   One of the things that is important about AM 740 is how faithful it is to the classic Canadian artists such as Gordon Lightfoot, Anne Murray, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell and Leonard Cohen.

10059   In respect to the latter, last night I was at a gala to Massey Hall which feted Leonard Cohen receiving the Glenn Gould prize, international prize for excellence in music. We were all very proud of him as a great contributor to global music as a great Canadian. I couldn't help but connecting Leonard, his contributions and the fact that he is one of the types of artists that I get to listen to on AM 740.

10060   My own experience has been life-long in music. I was an early contributor to the business of music in Canada. I'm one of the founders of the Canadian Independent Record Producers Association. I was one of the original artists that was asked to come to Ottawa and to make a deposition about the CanCon regulations.

10061   Throughout my life I have seen the importance of music to people of all ages. But, in particular now that I'm a university professor, professor of music among other things, I have become aware of how important music is as we age, as people get older. It plays a more central role than was ever understood.

10062   he brain works in ways that we are just starting to understand but several things that we know about music is that as people get older and perhaps lose some of the edge that we have in our various physical abilities and mental skills that music provides a touchstone for us to understand, empathize with and connect with our society.

10063   AM 740 plays a unique role in introducing new musical talent as well whose musical styles and genres don't fit the format of other stations, most of which use formatted programming that they purchase from large services generally in the United States which over the years have grown to be much more exclusive with very small playlists, generally in the neighbourhood of a few hundred songs. It's a rare occurrence anywhere in Canada and, in fact, in North America to find this station that has as broad a playlist as AM 740 does with several thousand songs at least.

10064   As a fan, one of the things that appeals to me, and I think it appeals to many other people as we get older, is that experience in life lets us sample many different types of music compared to younger people who tend to go with their peers and just say, you know, "I like a certain kind of rock and roll" or "I like a certain kind of this or that".

10065   So the emerging Canadian artists that AM 740 supports in fact represent that kind of spectrum, artists like Lilly Frost, Sophie Milman, Matt Dusk and the sensational Nikki Yanofsky who not only enjoy regular airplay but in many cases have been introduced to Canadian listeners on AM 740 when they couldn't get airplay on any other Canadian stations.

10066   I have been involved in music all my life and I can tell you that airplay is essential to a new artist's career. So I applaud AM 740's unmatched commitment to artists that don't fit the mould of mainstream radio.

10067   I also suggest to you that AM 740 is the only station that caters directly to and specifically for an older demographic, both in the music that it plays and in the information and news programming that it provides. The older I get the more apparent it is that other Canadians don't in fact enter into the target audiences of most of the other radio stations.

10068   While I could go on and praise the AM 740, I really came here to support their quest for a solution to the crippling problem in Toronto of getting reliable coverage for their signals, so that fans like myself could actually enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

10069   As a person who also has a background in science, I see AM 740's signal problem as analogous perhaps to the proverbial tree falling in the forest when no one is around.

10070   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hoffert, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to ask you to please conclude your presentation. Your time is up.

10071   MR. HOFFERT: Thank you very much.

10072   Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be pleased to respond to any questions.

10073   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much for your appearance here.

10074   We will start the questioning with Commissioner Simpson. I just want to note that we have picked the most western region Commissioner virtually every morning to start. So hopefully he is used to the early mornings in Toronto now.

10075   Commissioner Simpson...?

10076   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: By my reckoning it's about a quarter to seven in the morning.

10077   I think I also drew this straw because I most closely approximate the target audience of your format. Actually, that's probably true of more than just myself.

10078   But, anyway, you know, hopefully we'll be able to hit it out of the park for you this morning with the ability to get a lot of stuff on the record.

10079   Also, before I get into it I would like to extend my -- not my apologies but my concern for the extra regulatory hoops you had to go through in the early stages with respect to technical issues, form issues and so on.

10080   And Mr. Znaimer, in the interests of economy, I have been collecting these $5 certificates given out by the Westin for morning croissants and coffee, to try and defray Mr. Lewis' bills that may have been incurred as a result of issues that we put before you.

10081   Where I am going to try and go this morning with the examination is to explore the two big issues, the technical issues which are, I think, undisputed by nature that they are issues that are a moving target. They have presented themselves fully to you but those technical issues are not going away.

10082   There is not a hard stop with respect to signal integrity, I think, right across the country and as we are hearing not just in the AM but on the FM band as well.

10083   I want to explore the many variables that you try to deal with, with respect to present spectrum, what this possibility of a nested FM would do for you and whether it's enough given where the moving target of the deterioration of signal integrity is going.

10084   The other area I would like to get into is to try and get out on the record more depth with respect to the uniqueness of the 65-plus market group because it, by my own lens, is a market that I find hugely intriguing because of its relative strength, its growing mass and, yet, the fact that you mentioned advertising agency and advertiser support.

10085   It seems to be a market that doesn't really get its fair share of attention because the advertising industry is a young man and woman's game. In spite of the buying power of the 65-plus market it seems to be overlooked.

10086   I would like to know how this focus of 65-plus is paying off for you, how that market again is a moving target and, particularly, given what we have heard over the last week and a half, how the changing ethnographic is playing into the demographic. Because while this market is growing exponentially because of the boomer phenomena, I'm curious as to how you are dealing with a great percentage of that aging population being potentially of ethnic makeup and what that does to challenge your existing format and programming and how you are going to morph as we go forward.

10087   So with all that said, starting off with the nested concept of a 250-watt EHAAT-type transmitter, given the potential of the 88.1 spectrum you're not definitely being greedy in the use of it because you have got, I believe, protection issues in Paris and Penetanguishene you have to deal with and the like.

10088   But it seems to me that your determination is that on the basis of the modest deficiency it will solve a problem for you south of Bloor -- I have got to get my geography right here -- sort of west of Caledonia and east to the Don or perhaps a little bit beyond that.

10089   That market area seems to be the most dense with respect to obstruction. That seems to be where all the action is with respect to condo and concrete pours.

10090   Is that where the 65-plus market is moving to as the empty nester phenomena runs in parallel with the aging population?

10091   MS LAFONTAINE: I'm going to ask Mark Lewis to address your questions in that regard.

10092   MR. LEWIS: The answer is yes. There is already a very large 65-plus population living in high rises, both in the downtown core and towards the east end of the city. As Ms Eng mentioned, that's where the empty nesters are going.

10093   There is 180 condo developments currently being built in Toronto and the sales, many of them are specializing in older Toronto residents. Many of them are pitching retirees.

10094   So there is definitely a move afoot and many people are moving from the suburbs downtown.

10095   We don't have numbers. We have spoken to a number of real estate companies. They have knowledge of that but even the Toronto Real Estate Board isn't tracking it on a monthly or weekly basis. But that is very clear from the information on our online survey that we conducted of our listeners.

10096   If I could just add one thing, the 88.1 signal fits like a glove particularly within the 3 millivolt when you match it to where the reception problems are.

10097   The signal also extends out to the city limits and many of our reports because we had hundreds and hundreds of reports, are throughout the city. So, you know, up to Steeles Avenue is where the 88.1 -- point 5 (.5) -- extends reliably and then there is, of course, a zone of interference, potential interference up there. But that's where the AM 740 signal still remain strong.


--- Technical difficulties

10099   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: There we go. Okay.

10100   Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Yesterday we had a presentation from Dufferin and I was hearing some different ways to slice the interference issue or the integrity issue.

10101   They were referring to a problem they were experiencing with their FM, their present FM signal which is not subject to as much interference but they were having penetration problems. That penetration was into, you know, the concrete high rises, which normally is an issue reserved for AM.

10102   Have you had the benefit of any testing or studies that would show that this nested FM would successfully penetrate this mass of concrete that seems to be surrounding the core?

10103   MR. LEWIS: Yes, the signal levels of -- and we have two things, Commissioner, that we can work with.

10104   One is the transmitter facility is identical to what CKLM, the former CKLM, had. It had very good reception in the downtown core and it had many listeners at the time within high-rise buildings, office buildings. So there is no question in our mind that that signal penetrates very well.

10105   We also transmit 96.3 from the same transmitter site that's proposed on the First Canadian Place. We have transmitted at times at low power when there was some work, remedial work being done on the building itself and we know that the signal travels very well in Toronto.

10106   So we know that from the same facility, same power levels it does penetrate.

10107   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: With respect to your AM interference problems, as you get out of the core your signal improves but how heavily is it being impeded by interference from, you know, the transit grid for example?

10108   I ask because we are experiencing this significantly in other markets. In Vancouver we have had an Armageddon of issues associated with the purchase of something like 800 new trolley buses just in time for the Olympics which -- and it wasn't the overhead wires but the actual RF being generated by the DC motors in these buses that effectively wipe out certain parts of the AM band for a block radius around the buses.

10109   So my question is: Outside of the core and outside of the effective radiated power area of that 250-watt FM, how much is this going to help you with integrity problems outside of the core with the AM band?

10110   MR. LEWIS: I was expecting that question, if I could sort of come at it two ways?

10111   Number one there are currently 121 kilometres of LRT lines in Toronto. Most of those lines are in the downtown core, although at the present time the Toronto Transit Commission is extending at least two major LRT lines across town. One is on Eglinton Avenue. So it will take the problem further north to midtown.

10112   And then the second one is the Scarborough line which will go across town. That one is -- excuse me. That one is under some debate at city council so it may be some time coming. But, certainly, shovels are in the ground for the midtown.

10113   Again, the 88.1 signal covers all of those areas.

10114   At the present time the only other, if I can call it, major LRT lines that are being constructed in the suburban areas outside of the 88.1 signal would be what is called the York University Line of the subway. And although it emerges above ground for a few points in the city, it's going to be buried all the way up to outside of the city of Toronto to Vaughan. So we don't anticipate that's going to exacerbate the problem.

10115   MS LAFONTAINE: I just want to add that we also know that the TTC is very well aware of this issue and you might want to expand upon that, Mark.

10116   MR. LEWIS: This problem started and ramped up about 25 or 30 years ago. There is a type of train that the TTC started to buy which is called a CLRV train. This particular train has now replaced the entire fleet.

10117   There is two types of trains being used. One is an articulated train and one is a CLRV. In slowing down and starting up is where these trains give off the most RF interference. TTC was aware of it.

10118   And back in the 1980s I was involved with local broadcasters who approached Industry Canada through the CAB at the time that this problem really started to ramp up. Nothing was done unfortunately.

10119   The TTC certainly knows about the problem but the TTC is not prepared to cure it. And certainly, from a regulatory standpoint, Industry Canada wasn't about then and not now to force them to clean it up.

10120   Ironically, I am in negotiations right now with a new technology being proposed for the subway system so I'm actually in negotiations with the TTC. In the contracting process we are only at the RFP stage.

10121   The TTC has some very onerous clauses on the -- and this is on pure telecom, not broadcast, clauses relating to interference from their trains. And they are not to be responsible for any interference.

10122   So it's a continuing problem even with cellular communications and data communications and it's not going away.

10123   Have I answered the question?

10124   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Yes, I concur. I have been chasing the same issue, out of personal interest, and municipal and regional governments seem to take the view, from a financial perspective, of course, that this is a vendor problem, and I think that it has to be chased right back to the origins of the manufacturer. But it doesn't seem to want to solve itself soon.

10125   MR. LEWIS: It occurred to me that I left out one component of the answer, as well; that is, 740 is in a bit of a unique position, and you saw it in the video, relative to some of the other AM stations, which are using directional beams across the lake, located in the Niagara Peninsula area around Grimsby. They are able to, essentially, funnel the power of their signals right into downtown Toronto, as well as the west end of the city, such as Mississauga.

10126   AM 740 is sort of a double-whammy situation -- and it is in the engineering brief. There is quite a bit of a write-up in our engineering brief, and I won't go into it in detail, but the wavelength of 740 is approximately 400 metres, and that also lends to conductivity of the interference on the overhead wires. The signal is much weaker, because we are not using a directional antenna farm.

10127   So 740 has yet another element of interference from the overhead lines that some of the other stations aren't subject to.

10128   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: With respect to quantifying the problem, you have undertaken fairly exhaustive surveys. Were these done by your consulting engineer?

10129   I think it's Bogdanovich?

10130   MR. LEWIS: Yes, we had three methods that we used for the research. The first was, in consultation with Mr. Bogdanovich, we did an online survey that ran for just over a month, from November to December, in advance of the filing of the application, and we got well over 500 responses.

10131   And we have provided the Commission with maps -- I will call them pin maps -- because in about 100-and-something situations, people were actually providing geographical locations by way of postal codes.

10132   That was input into a database.

10133   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Yes, I saw that.

10134   MR. LEWIS: We had several hundred more street locations and intersections that were provided with interference problems.

10135   We filed that information on a spreadsheet of about 49 streets, as well.

10136   Then Mr. Bogdanovich, independent of the online survey, because it was actually being done while he was doing the field work, he went out and utilized the as-built technical standards that were filed with Industry Canada for CBL 740 many years ago and compared those results against -- it's getting complicated, but a 1997 report done by Industry Canada, and correlated the decline in the reception to the same locations. So there is consistency in terms of the Industry Canada-CBC data and today's data.

10137   Then, the other element that we did was, we took all of the information that Mr. Bogdanovich correlated, that the listener surveys correlated, and we drove those routes.

10138   We also submitted a set of audio CDs of the drive tests over the same routes where the signal fell below par.

10139   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: There were two questions that perhaps you have answered, but just for the sake of clarity on my part -- what came across very clearly in that whole undertaking, when married with the consumer survey work -- there were two issues that jumped out. Bogdanovich's input seemed to indicate that there was something like 22.1 percent, in terms of location tests, where the signal was unacceptable, and it was referenced as being unacceptable based on a standard radio test.

10140   Is that what you referred to just a minute ago?

10141   MR. LEWIS: Yes. Those were the tests that he conducted, and he went to the actual sites that were tested previously.

10142   I omitted one other thing; that is, we were aware of a lot of new buildings that have been put up since the CBC conducted these tests back in the 1990s, and Industry Canada, so we actually went to -- or Mr. Bogdanovich went to a number of locations, which are in the report, where he attempted to receive the signal within high-rises, including residential units, and that is in the report, as well.

10143   So that would be the new data, because previously those buildings didn't exist.

10144   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: On, let's call it, the more subjective side, with the consumer data, the unacceptable rating swelled to 43.5 percent, based on your consumer surveys, and as a measure, I understand, it was as compared to receptivity of other AM signals.

10145   Was that consumer testing skewed to your target group or was it --

10146   MR. LEWIS: No, it was promoted on-air, so I would say that the average listener to 740, who is primarily over 65, would be a respondent. But we certainly didn't ask any age information, so we don't have any type of demographic.

10147   What came out very clearly in that research was just the quantity of reception problems, and what I think surprised us a little bit was the extent of suburban reception problems in Toronto.

10148   The other thing that we were careful to ask was -- we tried to keep it to a level playing field, so the question that was asked was: In the past three months have you experienced reception problems?

10149   We had the opportunity, as well, to see, at that point, some data that was filed by Corus in Calgary, regarding their reception problems.

10150   So we had the opportunity to consider questions that wouldn't ask, "Have you ever had a reception problem," going back many years.

10151   We tried to get a current snapshot.

10152   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: May I shift a bit to the CBC reference? I hear you loud and clear that, ostensibly, should a decision on CBC happen, or CBC finds, without the Commission's help, other remedial measures which allow it to release that particular piece of property that you collocate your AM on, I understand very clearly that just based on land costs, available land, and the like, you are pretty much shut out from relocating your AM transmitter.

10153   Is that correct?

10154   MR. LEWIS: It is more than land costs, it's a very odd situation that has happened -- and, again, I have an overview of this because I am involved in a number of files.

10155   In 2006-2007, Industry Canada had a consultation -- actually, it goes back a few more years -- with municipalities and the general public, and they decided to turn over to municipalities the ability to determine whether towers should be installed in their areas.

10156   Toronto is a very special case, and if I could just take a moment to explain the Toronto situation --

10157   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Please do.

10158   MR. LEWIS: Dating back prior to the Industry Canada consultation, the City of Toronto began to have concerns about RF levels in a number of places, particularly the AM transmitter site on Toronto Island, and that would be a possible site, in a perfect world, because it is south of the city, it is public land, it is City of Toronto land, and they lease the land to AM operators at a reasonable cost.

10159   In the early 1990s, the City decided that it wasn't going to renew the leases because it didn't like the levels of RF interference, or RF coming from those sites.

10160   In 2001, the City put out a policy on RF levels, and I have it with me, and we can file it with the Commission, but the report determined that the two existing incumbents, who are CHIN-AM and Fairchild, could remain on the island indefinitely because they serve a multicultural audience, but no further co-siting could be done on the island because of RF levels.

10161   The City of Toronto also adopted a standard that was 100 times more stringent than Safety Code 6, and that has become enmeshed in their telecommunications protocol that they now use anytime someone wants to locate a radio station in Toronto.

10162   The Commission is probably aware of a situation that happened with CHHA-AM 1610, Radio San Lorenzo, when, because of interference problems in a residential area, they were forced by Industry Canada to abandon that site, and the City of Toronto, on a one-time basis, allowed them to locate on some City of Toronto public lands, which are called the Port Lands.

10163   The Port Lands are not available for anybody else at this point in time.

10164   The problem with the Port Lands -- and I am going back to the 2001 policy -- was that the ramp-up of aircraft traffic at Billy Bishop Airport, which is where Porter and Air Canada now operate, has put that whole waterfront area also on a major flight path.

10165   So, in the 2001 policy, the City decided not to allow more AM or tower development along the flight path.

10166   So the short answer is, within the City of Toronto, even if we could find a site -- and there isn't any parkland or public land -- the restrictions are just too stringent at this point in time.

10167   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: You are referencing the protocol.

10168   MR. LEWIS: That's right.

10169   Also, aside from the protocol, there is an Industry Canada requirement that you not put a new tower in a residential or office area, et cetera, et cetera, where there is a population density of more than 500.

10170   That is the other part of the jigsaw puzzle, because there is literally nowhere in the Toronto area, or the GTA, that has a population of less than 500. There are just no more areas in the GTA.

10171   MS LAFONTAINE: If I could just add, there are people who reside on Toronto Island, and I am sure that the islanders would just not -- they would get themselves organized fairly well and it just wouldn't happen.

10172   MR. LEWIS: In fact, they did, and the report refers to people taking their children out of school on the island because of the RF concerns.

10173   MS LAFONTAINE: And Porter just keeps ramping up. I am sure that you have used it from time to time coming to Toronto. I just can't imagine that there would be any AM towers going up there.

10174   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Yes, I was on the Board of the Vancouver Port Authority, and I am very aware of the pressures on federal and provincial lands, where you get into conflicting objectives between urbanization and industrialization.

10175   It is a problem, and I appreciate your explanation.

10176   MR. LEWIS: Even if there were rural land, we have a case that I am involved in right now, and the Commission licensed -- I am getting perhaps a bit off-topic -- AM 700 in Calgary back in 2008, and the licensee acquired land in the Foothills Municipal District -- rural land, no population nearby, meets the Industry Canada and RF requirements. And, I guess, 2008 -- 2012 -- we are now a number of years into it, and he still has gotten denials from the municipality to build the AM site.

10177   And it's very modest in terms of number of towers, but there's just no recourse on AM right now.

10178   MS LAFONTAINE: Commissioner Simpson, I'm wondering if I could just come back to your question about the demographics in the 88.1 contour. I'd just like to put this on the public record.

10179   Our numbers show that within the three millivolt contour they're about 13 percent 65 plus that reside in that area and 18 percent are 50 plus. And if you go to the five millivolt contour, you've got 31 percent who are 50 plus and, again, 13 percent that are 65 plus.

10180   And again, as to Moses' point about the 1,000, you know, people every day, or about 100, 115-ish in Toronto turning 65 every day, this is just going to escalate. So I wanted to add that.

10181   MR. ZNAIMER: Well, I wanted to address an earlier part of your question, Commissioner Simpson, about the strange societal attitude that we've met in this discussion of aging. Our culture and our society is very schizophrenic about this.

10182   And early on, as I got involved in this space, I realized that language was part of the problem.

10183   When we're healthy, everybody wants to live forever, but nobody wants to be old. Old is a word that makes people uncomfortable, and variations of old like mature and senior and elder also makes them squirm.

10184   And that's puzzling because you could say that one of the great achievements of the last century, in fact, of human history, is the extension of longevity. That's what education and science and better medicine and better nutrition has all led to, and yet the culture resists.

10185   The culture, when it discusses aging at all, tends to put it in a frame that suggests alarm, this image of a tsunami of greying people, you know, clogging up the streets and otherwise bankrupting the country with their requirements is completely strange when, in fact, we know that the reality is more and more of us are living longer and we're living better. And a substantial proportion of our generation is living wealthier than ever before.

10186   And you have an example of this tribunal here. You're all zoomers. Well, perhaps, I don't know, Commissioner Molnar might be a pre-zoomer.

10187   And you know, you haven't been put out to pasture. You're not willing to go shuffling off into a corner and await your time. You're vigorous, you're engaged. You have considerable power, certainly over us.

--- Laughter

10188   MR. ZNAIMER: And so the response not only of the culture, but of the ad industry, is surprising. Don't get me started on the ad industry. In my history, they didn't think CityTV was a good idea and they thought MuchMusic was stupid.

10189   And we've had some of that resistance and, in fact, if you look at the way the ratings are structured, well, you're all dead at 55, right. They're only interested 25-54. It peaks.

10190   Their thoughts, really, about this panel and me is that you're all home in your rocking chair, you're chewing your gums waiting for your pension cheque so you can go out and buy the dog food. It's bizarre.

10191   And it will inevitably change, but it's remarkably slow.

10192   Sadly, I don't think we have a leadership industry here in Canada, and regardless of the fact that we've been pioneers in this discussion, so many of those agencies are really, you know, creatures of multi-national companies primarily directed from either England or the United States.

10193   And it won't be until this discussion is resolved and that demographic is pushed out, 30-60, 35-65, in the United States that the lemmings here in Canada will follow suit.

10194   But I see early signs of that. I recently met the President -- the President of Research for NBC. And he was excited to meet me because he'd heard about Zoomer Media. There is no equivalent company, certainly not in North America and, to my knowledge, not anywhere in the world, a company that is comfortable with the idea of aging that puts a positive frame around it that brings forward all the values that are represented by our aging population.

10195   And this gentleman is going to come and visit us quite soon, but he put out recently a paper -- I have it here with me -- proclaiming the advent of the alpha boomer.

10196   And leafing through it, it looked exactly like the paper we put out five years ago. In fact, I have a suspicion that he derived some of his material from us.

10197   But the point I'm trying to make is when it's finally sanctioned as an idea in the United States, then perhaps the agencies in Canada will follow suit.

10198   The long and the short of it is the community that represents 80 percent of the wealth of the country, that does 70 percent of the voting today gets somewhere around five, maybe six, maybe seven percent of the ad spend. It's bizarre, it makes no sense, and sooner or later, it'll yield.

10199   For the moment, it feels like the Berlin Wall. You know, you push against it and it's solid and you push against it and it's solid, and then one day it just crumbles. And I think that day is not too far off.

10200   But in some ways this hearing is hugely important because if the one and the only service to this community is snuffed out, as I say, by circumstances quite beyond our control, utterly unforeseeable, then the people who do the buying won't do the buying because if they can't hear it, they won't buy it. If they can't see it, they don't buy it.

10201   So we've got to stay there and wait for the culture and wait for the agencies and the ad business to catch up. And while we're doing that, of course, we're doing a much more important thing, which is providing a service to a massive part of our population.

10202   As for the technical issues, well, 15 years ago this Commission accepted that reception was a problem. It's become exponentially worse.

10203   If you accepted it as a problem for the CBC, you must accept it as a problem for us.

10204   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Just to put a punctuation mark on your dissertation, you know, Drucker -- Peter Drucker once said that all changes when your contemporaries reach positions of power, unfortunately, with the exception of aging appointees, it seems that by the time someone reaches the age of 60 or 65 they pull themselves out of the work force and diminuate(sic) their influence to that of being an advocate or, as you say, an alpha to continue to enjoy some kind of tenure.

10205   And it is frustrating. I share your pain.

10206   Let's talk about -- you moved us nicely into the demographic and the programming. And I wanted to ask, first of all, on page 3 of your oral presentation, Mr. Znaimer, you had -- on point 2 you indicated that you wanted to repatriate a substantial new audience, and you drew a number out of 126 some-odd thousand.

10207   As a -- that, I presume, is a potential audience. Is -- what is the demographic of that 126? Is it 12 plus or 65 plus?

10208   MS LAFONTAINE: Yes, that's 65 plus.

10209   MR. ZNAIMER: Yeah. And the number's derived from the total number of individuals who don't listen to AM at all.

10210   That number is double the size; it's about 250,000. And we reasoned that a good portion of those people will be in our demographic, certainly 45 plus. These are the people who still listen to radio. These are the people who still have AM receivers.

10211   And we thought that we could capture a reasonable proportion of that number, and so took 50 percent of 250. And think 126 is doable.

10212   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: With respect to the next number, which is the 800,000 people, approximately, that represent your demographic, let's talk about the diversity of that number. And -- because as you indicated, there's a stereotype to an aging Canadian.

10213   And in the last two weeks, I'm -- you know, Toronto's my home town, but it's been a long time since I've really, you know, sunk my toes into this city and this last two weeks has been an eye opener.

10214   I take back, you know, the rhetoric of -- as a Vancouverite of ethnic diversity because I think Toronto's rewriting the book in a way that I just couldn't have imagined.

10215   So in that 800,000, which is the belly of the beast of the demographic that Zoomer is after, how is the composition of that 800,000 changing on you? Because again, the theme of this morning is moving target, both technical and demographic.

10216   How is that audience changing? Because assuming you get your fair share of it, what does that share look like in terms of its diversity?

10217   MR. ZNAIMER: Well, as you know, the City of Toronto now is probably composed of 50 percent visible minorities. The significant minorities in this community are the Chinese and the South Asians. And they're of particular interest to us because they seem to reflect cultures that have a greater interest in the aging population.

10218   Our western culture has been youth obsessed and, as I say, has been uncomfortable with the thought of aging. And ironically, of course, it's the very same people who said don't trust anybody over 30 who are now turning 65.

10219   And it's ironic as well that these people will spend many more years being, quote, old than ever they spent being young.

10220   But getting back to the diversity of the Toronto population, we think that these new minority populations will be particularly sensitive to our message because they are more inclined to be comfortable with aging.

10221   I think -- I think they live in many more multi-generational households and all of this, I think, bodes reasonably well for Zoomer Media's future provided we can stay on the air.

10222   If you can't stay on the air, if you're not there, then you're soon forgotten.

10223   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: If you're not there, you're not there.

10224   MS LAFONTAINE: If I could also add, you know, certainly our listenership, our older residents who speak English, the issues and the news and the information and the music that the station broadcasts cuts across all sort of, you know -- you know, trying to find a home for your parents is an issue for, you know, Francophones, Anglophones, South Asians, et cetera.

10225   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Well, that's exactly where I wanted to go with the next part of this questioning, was as that percentage grows of the 65 market in terms of diversity, what are -- how are you ensuring that you get that share of that share?

10226   You've indicated that with the Chinese and perhaps South Asian populations there is more compatibility, more simpatico to the message that you're providing. I was curious if you could talk to music programming and news programming -- perhaps Ms Znaimer could tell me a bit more about that.

10227   But as you are attempting to keep your arms around the mass of the 65 plus, how is Zoomer morphing to stay relevant with that entire group?

10228   MR. ZNAIMER: I'll say a word or two and then I'll ask my sister, Libby, to carry on.

10229   We're doing some of the obvious things, which is we're translating our material in a variety of languages. And music, as Monique said, cuts across all cultures, and there's something about, you know, the early rock and roll that really speaks to all manners of people.

10230   But -- well, Libby, do you want to pick it up here?

10231   MS ZNAIMER: We certainly deal with those issues as they come up. They come up a lot in reference to nursing home care. And Moses alluded to the multi-generational household.

10232   We've done a lot of coverage -- we see that as a coming solution to the aging population. On the one hand, we're living to 100 and, on the other hand, junior is living in the basement 'til he's 30, and that's one of the solutions. And there's definitely a multi-cultural element to that because certain cultures are much more comfortable with that.

10233   We've had events with CARP at seniors' residences which are targeted to certain ethnic groups. It was the Yee Hong Nursing Home, which is the Chinese community.

10234   We found that they actually have floors there for South Asian population. The issue is the food. Elderly people want the food that they grew up with, and issues of language.

10235   So we definitely cover these things as they come up.

10236   I do have to say that I think that, to a certain extent, the issues -- there's a certain commonality to the issues. And whereas I'm sure if my parents had gone into a home, they would have wanted to be with their own ethnic group. When my time comes, I want a co-op and I want Chinese on Monday and Indian on Tuesday.

10237   And I think that I would certainly have more in common with friends of mine from very different cultures, whether the come from the Caribbean or India, in my own age group than I would with a 25 year old who has the exact same ethnic background as I do.

10238   But we definitely cover these issues as the come up, and they do come up often.

10239   MS LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

10240   MR. ZNAIMER: Yeah. I didn't want to dominate the answer, so I passed it to Libby. But what I was starting to say is on the one hand, we translate our material and attempt to communicate to the older generations in their language, but it's often the case that decisions about parents, particularly those in decline, are made by the eldest daughter, in a way.

10241   And of course, the new generations of minorities, soon not to be minorities, but they speak English, so we can communicate to them the way we communicate to the entire population.

10242   Monique.

10243   MS LAFONTAINE: Yes. I just want to add that, I guess, for -- you know, for Moses, you know, and CityTV, Chum, it was -- and with, you know, Zoomer and MZ Media now reflecting the city's diversity is sort of a given, right. We do it organically.

10244   You were saying that, you know, you've been here in Toronto for, you know, a week now and you've been surprised. And the next time you come, we would love to have you come to our offices because if you walk down the halls, it will be like walking down the street on Queen Street or -- Queen Street or, say, Yonge Street, so it's really -- it's something that we do naturally.

10245   We do it on-air and we do it with our staff.

10246   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Excellent. Thank you.

10247   On -- again, I've got perhaps another five, eight minutes of questioning, just so I don't run out the clock here on my other Commissioners.

10248   A couple of questions, again back to the oral presentation this morning.

10249   Mr. van Driel had indicated, and it was in bold, but it sounds like a double negative to me, or maybe I'm not just reading it right, that "no less than 90 percent of the music that we broadcast is unduplicated by any other radio station in Toronto".

10250   Do you mean that you're playing -- that no other station is playing more than 10 percent of -- it sounds like a double negative to me.

10251   MR. VAN DRIEL: Sorry. What -- I guess the intention was to bring across the fact that what we play -- 90 percent of what we play is not heard on other radio stations.

10252   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Great. Thank you.

10253   Also on programming, this is a housekeeping question. Staff asked me to just clarify that although CCD contribution increases are not a requisite of any technical amendment, you've come forward with a proposition on an additional million dollars for CCD.

10254   Just for the record, this is in addition to your existing CCD commitments?

10255   MS LAFONTAINE: Yes, it is.

10256   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Okay. Back to program -- or to technical for a second.

10257   That slippery slope that I think a percentage, if not a great percentage, of the broadcasters in this country are on with respect to signal integrity and viability, particularly in AM, should this Commission, in its wisdom, grant you the nested FM on that basis that you've prescribed, it is, for your own purposes, an under-utilization of the potential of that signal.

10258   But should things get worse -- two-part question. Should things get worse and the AM become totally unviable, would it be a requisite of your long-term planning to have to go back and file an amendment to convert entirely to FM as a salvation?

10259   MR. LEWIS: Perhaps I could lead and then Moses could comment.

10260   We have come at this in perhaps a slightly different way. Approximately 300 or 400 thousand people a week listen to the station outside of the .5 of the 88.1, so shutting down the AM right now or in the foreseeable future, unless the CBC pulls the plug on us, would not serve the population because they'd lose a valuable service.

10261   We don't see in the next eight or nine years until the end of the licence period with the CBC the signal degenerating outside of the .5 significantly. There will be some, you know, situation in particularly Mississauga where high-rises are going up, but we don't see that as being a problem.

10262   And the 88.1, we believe, will extend out in to Mississauga, probably -- we have a realistic contour that goes up to -- almost to Markham, so we think that that will be a long-term stable signal. We don't see the signal being compromised within the .5.

10263   MR. ZNAIMER: And as someone who has, for a long time, been an enthusiastic supporter of the idea of a little Canadian cultural imperialism, I get a big thrill of the fact that the 740 signal can actually be heard in 28 American states.

10264   It doesn't monetize in any particular way, but it is really gratifying to know that we are widely listened to in north -- in northeast New York state, in Pennsylvania. We get letters, we get compliments and we get people interested in what's going on in Canada because they can hear this unusual full service 65 plus oriented radio station.

10265   Those have been, to the degree that they ever existed, wiped out in United States for precisely the same reason that you begin to see it here; the conglomerates just homogenize the scene. And people can recognize the difference between machine radio and personal radio done by people who still care.

10266   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Last question.

10267   Should things not go your way on this particular application and excepting -- putting aside the potential of CBC selling their property, assuming that they remain your landlord for the time being, long-time prognosis for 740 for the station?

10268   MR. ZNAIMER: Well, it's not good. It's death by 1,000 cuts, you know. I'm half inclined to turn it around and put it to you. Should things not go our way, are you ready to receive the raging grannies?

10269   This is a considerable community, and one of Susan's greatest achievements in the last year or two has been to sensitize politicians to who actually does the voting.

10270   Now that that penny has dropped, they're extremely interested in what we do and in what this community does and needs. And they're aware that we are in some jeopardy and they're hoping, like we do, that you can help us find a way out of the problem.

10271   MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Simpson, if I might, and I may get the glare of Mr. Znaimer, we've considered a couple of other scenarios in -- that could occur as a result of a licensing decision involving one of the other FM operators who has applied for 88.1.

10272   We consulted with Industry Canada at the time the applications were going in and they informed us that for various reasons we couldn't put a second application in to hedge our bet with respect to 98.7, 103.9, et cetera, et cetera, but there could be some scenarios, but -- and I caution -- I will raise this in intervention perhaps. Maybe I should end it there.

10273   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: It's always good to have a B plan.

10274   MS LAFONTAINE: And if I can just add.

10275   The question is what will happen to the station if things don't go our way here. Again, I just want to remind the Commission that the CBC lease or the CBC licence agreement goes to 2021, that's just really around the corner.

10276   And also the whole AM/FM transmitter usage, you know, apparatus usage, right, we have 40 percent of people in the GTA who are not listening to AM. So, as Moses says, it's not -- the future would be bleak.

10277   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you. Those are my questions.

10278   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10279   Commissioner Poirier...?

10280   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Good morning.

10281   Mr. Znaimer said a few minutes ago, talking about advertisers, if they don't hear it, they don't buy it. That's right.

10282   Then my question is directed to Mr. Hamilton and I really wonder -- I'm not sure what would be the answer -- could one argue that this factor is compensated by the fact that the number of Zoomers and Boomers is rapidly increasing?

10283   MR. HAMILTON: For sure that's our goal and objective, to be selling to the agencies and to direct clients that this demographic is a viable one, it's a growing one, it's one they should be investing their dollars in.

10284   But as Moses alluded to, the frustration we face with what is deemed national advertising and local advertising, or national and local agency advertising, which makes up about 70 percent of the radio revenue pie, is bought against the demo of 25 to 54 or 18 to 49. Actually, over 75 percent of the business is transacted that way. So we are doing missionary work as best we can.

10285   On our station, for example, our revenues break out 11 percent national, 73 percent direct. So we are going to local clients who value the Zoomer demographic. It makes sense for their category business and they are partnering with us. We are almost like a full-service agency. We do their radio spots for them, we work with them, and we are growing our business that way.

10286   We hope to grow the agency side as well. We believe it will make sense to them. When I first got in the business the main demo that advertising agencies bought was 18 to 49, adults. It has moved to 25 to 54. We believe the next move will be 35 to 64 and we hope it comes soon and we are doing missionary work to make sure that happens.

10287   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Thank you.

10288   MR. ZNAIMER: If I may, it's because of the way in which national advertisers through national agencies buy that you get this distorted -- you get this distorted concentration of radio services directed against one demo.

10289   And I know it takes a bit of a mind shift. In one way you could look at the radio scene in Toronto and say that it represents a varied and diverse system. You have a broad range of different kinds of music. Certainly, the rock genre is very nuanced, all kinds of different forms of rock. You have country, you have classical, and then you have a lot of spoken word, some sports, some news, and so on.

10290   But when you look at that picture, again from the point of view of targeted audience, from the point of view of service to a particular demographic, what you see -- and you could see it in that diagram that we have appended to our oral remarks. It's this page here.

10291   It's bizarre. You see this crazy overemphasis on the demos that the advertisers will buy, but that doesn't reflect the entire population. So you get intense concentration, wild overservice to 25-54, quite a bit of service to 18-34, and none at all -- none at all out here. And that's the reason that while the system appears to be diverse, in fact from the point of view of population served it is not diverse of all.

10292   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Maybe another question, Mr. Znaimer.

10293   Is there any other radio station in Canada targeting the same audience you do?

10294   MR. ZNAIMER: Well, I'm not aware of them. And we attempted in our remarks to make this point. There are other services that get older listeners. Some older listeners want to listen to rock 'n roll, but that's not the same as a station that serves the population with serious content. In that regard I believe we stand alone.

10295   MR. LEWIS: I would like to add as well, we are not aware of any other stations that have embraced -- and I'm going to date myself with the Commission, but in the 1970s the Commission came out with a foreground format policy which had high-quality spoken word with enrichment.

10296   This radio station schedule, particularly because a lot of it involves block programming, is exactly that. There is a lot of high-quality spoken word. And I will give you an example.

10297   I was listening on the weekend and there was a program, a profile of Joni Mitchell, and the whole hour was recollections. It was well researched and well presented. And we know of no station in the private sector that has that level of drilldown into that type of spoken word content.

10298   And also, and not gratuitously, "Goldhawk Fights Back" is one of the few advocacy shows. It's not just an open-line show, but it's an advocacy program. Even the CBC has left that sphere. So we don't see anybody else in private radio in that sphere today.

10299   There is sort of the combative -- I heard I believe Commissioner Menzies talking to one of the applicants last week about the combative type of open-line radio, but that's not what this station is about because it's drilling down into issue-based matters and coming up with solutions.

10300   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: And could we conclude that targeting that audience makes a business plan more difficult to be profitable?

10301   MR. LEWIS: Well, I -- yes.

10302   MR. ZNAIMER: Yes, and that's why the big guys won't do it. They just won't do it.


10304   MR. ZNAIMER: I know it's rare and it may shock you, but you have a group before you that actually has ideals. We are perhaps idealistic and proud of it.

10305   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: You could be visionary then.

10306   MR. LEWIS: If I could add just one other thing.

10307   If you look at the financials which the Commission of course has of Classical 96.3 going back to about 2004, Mr. Znaimer bought the station in 2006 and if you look at where it is today versus where it was at that time, because the programming changed and was redirected particularly at older adults, you will see a quantum leap in terms of the success financially of the station and also the audience that it has attracted.

10308   So focusing on these demographics is a good business. It's just not for everybody. Not every broadcaster wants to go there.

10309   MS LAFONTAINE: I also want to add, and perhaps my colleagues can speak to this as well, as a full-service AM radio station it costs a lot of money to put this kind of content on the air. So it's not only that we are breaking ground and trailblazing on the advertising front, but it is, you know, extremely costly to do this.

10310   MR. ZNAIMER: I know this is going to ruin me with the analysts on Bay Street, but we have a radio station with 30 full-time staff, 15 part-time staff. This is an AM radio station with a very modest revenue.

10311   That should signal to you the level of our commitment and I hope it will encourage you to give us a bit of the hand because you are the only ones who can.

10312   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Thank you. I'm done, Mr. Chair.

10313   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10314   Commissioner Patrone...?

10315   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10316   I appreciate your presentation this morning. And I take your point, Mr. Znaimer, that the big guys won't do it. However, if in fact you are ahead of your time, does it not stand to reason that at some point the big guys are going to come around to the idea that this is an untapped group, that there is a business case going forward and that they will, since we don't regulate formats anymore, come around to doing basically what you are doing on the AM side?

10317   MR. ZNAIMER: You know what, I'm not afraid of that and in fact when finally they come around it will be only because the system has validated what we are doing today.

10318   Having said that, I don't think they will ever do the depth, the breadth and the level of commitment that we have. The processes of big companies are to refine, to whittle down, to remove. That's how they generate their profit. You can see it in the way these operations have run over the last few years.

10319   I think the kind of work that we do is more personal and revolves around personal ownership rather than big corporate ownership.

10320   MS LAFONTAINE: I would also like to add on the news front -- and I'm going to ask Libby to speak to this -- the kind of news coverage and the amount of time that we are spending in that coverage is quite extensive.

10321   And so, Libby, I'll --

10322   MS ZNAIMER: We have 106 five-minute newscasts a week. That is virtually unheard of in private radio. Our content is unique, both in the content and in the style that it's delivered.

10323   When you look at what most of the other local radio stations offer, first of all, they focus very, very heavily on violence, whether it's crime or fires or accidents. I mean there's the old adage, if it bleeds it leads, and it drives me crazy. I have been in the news business a long time and people follow that blindly without thinking.

10324   It's also delivered -- if you listen to it, it's often delivered really, really quickly. You can barely make out what they're saying and with a lot of hype: This just in. It's 11:00, do you know where your kids are?

10325   So at the new AM 740, first of all, here's what we don't do. When it comes to those stories that focus on violence, we think long and hard, is this really news? Sometimes you have a tragic death. It's a tragic death, but that doesn't it make news. So we only cover those things if we believe that a public interest is being served.

10326   The style is calm and conversational and it is especially good if you are driving. You know, you don't need that yelling in your ear when you're driving. So that is the style.

10327   The issues we focus on, we actually have a news policy which covers the type of stories that we are doing and the order they have to be covered in.

10328   So on AM 740 we very high up have to have what we call a Zoomer story, and that's usually a health-related story or something to do with the economy or pension reform. That has to go high in the newscast.

10329   We also mandate that we have to give coverage for local arts organizations, what's going on in our community.

10330   The other thing that I personally hate that all the other stations focus on is this celebrity coverage of Hollywood and that is absolutely banned from the station. What we do try to do is to try to glamorize and make into celebrities our local artists who are really begging for coverage now because it's a lot cheaper and a lot easier to focus on this celebrity coverage.

10331   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Can I get one more question -- and I appreciate everything you have said, Ms Znaimer, on that point, I just want to move ahead and wrap up with the other quick question that I had.

10332   That has to do -- and forgive me if you addressed this already -- but in your video you included brief excerpts from 860, where you say the signal is quite clear, the same goes for 680 and 640, and then you say but tune into 740 and the reception can be horrific.

10333   Is a possible answer moving to somewhere else on the AM dial? Is that -- because obviously not all AM frequencies are created equal, some are better than others, and you have illustrated that in your video.

10334   Is it out of the question to think that perhaps at least part of the solution to your problem is on the AM dial?

10335   MR. ZNAIMER: As far as I know there are almost no other AM positions available in the community as well and those that are are even more impaired than 740.

10336   I have made an effort to buy one of the better ones and so far have been rebuffed. That might be a solution, but not a practical one at this time.

10337   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: So you would buy that with a mind to migrating 740 over to the newer and improved -- or the better AM?

10338   MR. ZNAIMER: Sure. Why don't you put in a call to the guy who runs Corus and see if he will let me have 640, a serious technical question.

10339   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Sorry, that's not my role.

--- Laughter

10340   MR. LEWIS: I will respond to that.

10341   At the present CBC site we investigated whether -- aside from the CBC contract which is insurmountable, could there be a directional antenna installed for other frequencies? And that site, the legacy site is the only one in Canada that we know of, except for one in Vancouver that has recently been constructed, where two AM broadcasters broadcast into the same antenna. So you can't make technical changes to the CBC site. Even if they were willing, that would resolve that problem at a different frequency. That's just a nonstarter because of where it is located in Milton coming in.

10342   Across the lake we investigated whether there were any frequencies down the Niagara Peninsula, and what we learned, aside from the land issues I discussed earlier, is also there are a number of technical taboos down in Niagara because of the number of AM stations that have relocated there. So we wouldn't be able to go in there because there are technical taboos (a) with 740, but also there are no other frequencies that are viable for Toronto there.

10343   Then the last part of the question is could we go to -- and the only land that is still available in Toronto is down at the Port Lands. The tower height because of the aviation -- CHAA can do it because they are at the very, very end of the AM band, with a much shorter wavelength and a shorter tower.

10344   There was a frequency in the 900 area that has been allocated to a very low-power in Mississauga and there are just -- there is just no -- under the city's protocol there is just no other place that you could put a directional antenna farm in. That's the big problem.

10345   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Okay. Well, thank you for your answers. Much appreciated.

10346   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10347   Vice-Chairman Pentefountas...?

10348   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Yes, very quickly, I know we are running late.

10349   Just a cleanup question with respect to paid programming. Could you elaborate on the revenue stream and the nature of the paid programming?

10350   MS LAFONTAINE: Yes. I'm going to ask George and perhaps Dan to speak to that.

10351   MR. GRANT: Well, as you notice in our projections we show about a half million dollars in terms of that programming, but it covers a wide swath of different kinds of programs, all of which virtually fall into what used to be called foreground programming by the CRTC.

10352   It is run pretty well on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday. Most of it runs quite early. It starts at about 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning and ends at around 10:30, 11:00. It is carefully selected. We make sure that in our opinion it fits as it should fit with the rest of our programming and in total we have approximately seven hours a week of it.

10353   Other specialty shows that we carry, for instance, our Scottish show, our Irish show, "The Garden Show," are all ours, they are produced in house. So the amount of it is not particularly large, particularly today for an AM station.

10354   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: So you are looking at about seven hours a week?

10355   MR. GRANT: That is correct.

10356   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: About $10,000 a week that will come in from that programming?

10357   MR. GRANT: That is correct.

10358   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Okay, yes. It's interesting, I was thinking about Commissioner Simpson's question and I saw the Irish show, the Scottish show, I didn't see a Punjabi show as he spoke on diversity.

10359   Listen, a quick question.

10360   MS LAFONTAINE: You can find that on VisionTV.


10362   I have asked this question before and it's sort of there are those out there, ill-intentioned people that would come out and say Zoomer got a licence, things happened, you had buildings going up -- it's unbelievable when you walk the City of Toronto, I have never seen such a vertically dense cement-intense city -- you got a licence, things changed, your signal is horrible and it's not the regulator's job to save your bacon.

10363   How do you answer that question?

10364   MR. ZNAIMER: Well, first of all, we don't want so much special treatment as the same treatment you have given others. You gave CBC consideration for this problem long before it was as severe a problem as it is today. You have given CBC a nested FM in Vancouver, you gave Durham a nested FM in Oshawa, you gave CHIN a nested FM here in Toronto.

10365   So our question would be why be particularly tough on us, especially since the community that we represent is going to be the largest minority of any in Toronto -- well, arguably -- in no time at all.

10366   As for, you know, we knew what we were getting into, when we acquired CHWO there was no possibility of the CBC abandoning its French service. It was inconceivable that it would do so. So it seemed a reasonable bet that we were there, albeit without a lease, for an indefinite future.

10367   That there could be more construction in Toronto's future, I suppose we might have considered that, but at the time that we made the acquisition the economy of the city was fairly dormant. All of this has happened within the last two or three years.

10368   MS LAFONTAINE: I would just also like to add that it's not about just saving bacon. I think it's also about the evolution of the broadcasting system and the technology and no reception and it is reacting and responding to it, which is what broadcasters have been doing for 70-80 years and what the Commission has been doing.

10369   So again, it's just part of you have to adjust and react to what's going on. This condo construction, when we were preparing this application, I mean it's phenomenal. We have more towers going up here than in Manhattan. It's unbelievable. You know, four more announced last week. So it's about just reacting and responding and trying to serve our listeners as best we can.

10370   MR. ZNAIMER: That really is the emphasis I want to put on it, Commissioner Pentefountas. It's not about saving my bacon, it's not about saving this little business, it's about the community we serve. You have to bear that in mind.

10371   And it's not just the vigorous Zoomers that we are trying to project, it's the people in the retirement homes, it's the people in the nursing homes. They have no other lifeline. We are it.

10372   I echo very much if there were any forum in which to argue it, I would propose that AM 740 should be an essential service. For those people it's the only thing of its kind.

10373   MR. LEWIS: And if I could add, Commissioner.

10374   We have exploited, as any prudent broadcaster should, new media -- and Mr. Greaves is sitting here -- but this demographic is just not smartphone-savvy, they are not streaming.

10375   We're doing all of those things and our take-up of course is well below what rock broadcasters would be getting. They're getting 17 percent take-up. We are a very small amount. Ninety percent of the people will not embrace the technology, but we have tried.

10376   We have given it a very, very good try. And you can look at our Web site and our apps and we are doing everything the other broadcasters are.

10377   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Thanks. Thanks for your answer.

10378   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much. That completes our examination of this file.

10379   Madam Secretary, we will take a 15-minute break.

10380   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

--- Upon recessing at 1059

--- Upon resuming at 1115

10381   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, can we begin?

10382   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

10383   Nous procéderons maintenant avec l'article 24 à l'ordre du jour. Il s'agit d'une demande présentée par la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto inc. en vue de modifier la licence de radiodiffusion de l'entreprise de programmation de radio FM communautaire de langue française CHOQ-FM Toronto.

10384   Veuillez noter aux fins du dossier que l'intervenant à l'ordre du jour, le sénateur Jim Munson, ne comparaîtra pas à l'audience aujourd'hui.

10385   Alors, nous avons à la table madame Tonia Mori qui va nous présenter ses collègues aux fins du dossier afin de débuter. Vous disposez ensuite de 20 minutes pour votre présentation.


10386   MME MORI : Merci.

10387   Bonjour, Monsieur le Président et membres du Conseil. Je m'appelle Tonia Mori. Je suis la directrice générale depuis novembre 2006 de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto, soit l'organisation qui gère la radio CHOQ-FM, la radio communautaire francophone de Toronto.

10388   Je suis aujourd'hui accompagnée :

10389   - à ma gauche, de M. Frédéric Duguay, le vice-président du Conseil d'administration de la Coopérative depuis maintenant deux ans; et,

10390   - à ma droite, de M. Emmanuel Bois, qui est le secrétaire de notre conseil d'administration et qui est également en charge de l'animation bénévole depuis 2008 d'une émission destinée aux Antillais.

10391   Suivent à sa droite :

10392   - M. Guy Lévesque, administrateur du conseil d'administration et membre fondateur de la station;

10393   - puis à sa droite notre ingénieur M. Jim Moltner, qui a travaillé à trouver une solution à notre situation; et

10394   - puis enfin, M. François Coté, qui est le Secrétaire général de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada.

10395   Madame la Secrétaire, nous débutons maintenant notre présentation.

10396   C'est au nom des 422,940 personnes qui parlent le français à Toronto et des 113 organisations ayant appuyé notre démarche que nous demandons au Conseil d'octroyer à CHOQ-FM la fréquence 88,1.

10397   Comme vous le savez, les limites techniques de notre fréquence actuelle, soit le 105,1 FM, ainsi que son rayonnement réel empêchent la radio communautaire depuis sa mise en ondes en 2006 d'accomplir pleinement sa mission. La fréquence 105,1 ne permet tout simplement pas de rejoindre et de desservir l'ensemble des Franco-Torontois et francophiles, notre communauté cible.

10398   Dans une telle situation, les répercussions sont directes sur notre croissance, notre survie, l'épanouissement de nos artistes francophones et de notre communauté évoluant en situation minoritaire.

10399   Certains diront que les chaussures à chausser sont très grandes pour une radio communautaire francophone à Toronto. Pourtant, nous connaissons notre marché, nous comprenons les répercussions et les avantages indéniables que nous avons sur notre environnement, nos artistes Franco-Ontariens et notre communauté en général. Nous sommes un ajout incontournable à la Loi sur la diversité du spectre radiophonique canadien et une réponse efficace à la Loi sur les langues officielles.

10400   Cela fait maintenant 26 ans que notre communauté s'entraîne. Notre Coopérative a déposé plusieurs demandes entre 1990 et 2002, et c'est avec détermination, celle qui a toujours fait la force des francophones à Toronto, que nous avons obtenu le 105,1 en 2003, qui est nécessairement une fréquence qui n'est pas celle que nous avions demandée et qui visiblement ne correspond pas à nos attentes initiales et au territoire qu'elle promettait de couvrir.

10401   Le Conseil reconnaissait déjà à cette époque la pertinence d'une radio pour les francophones de Toronto mais disposait de peu de solutions pour répondre à notre demande. Aujourd'hui, c'est toute une nouvelle option qui se dessine. Cela fait six ans que nous performons avec un boulet accroché au pied. Il est maintenant temps de reconnaître notre situation précaire et de faire les ajustements nécessaires pour assurer notre développement et notre survie.

10402   Pour mieux illustrer notre problème technique, nous avons demandé à notre ingénieur M. Jim Moltner de vous présenter la situation relative à notre dossier.

10403   Jim, please.

10404   MR. MOLTNER: Good morning, Commissioners.

10405   The Coopérative radiophonique hired me almost two years ago to help in resolving CHOQ-FM's coverage problems. Perhaps a quick review of the history is in order.

10406   CHOQ was approved for 105.1 MHz pursuant to the 2002 Toronto FM hearing. 105.1 was not, however, their chosen frequency. It was their secondary choice after 91.7, the adjacent frequency of which was, however, awarded to CHIN Radio.

10407   Of the four last remaining Toronto frequencies considered at that hearing, 105.1 was definitely, as we say, at the bottom of the barrel, subject to severe protection requirements to the east, south and west and excessive co-channel interference from Peterborough and Niagara Falls.

10408   However, as with most any applicant any frequency is better than no frequency. Besides, despite the colourful coverage maps we consultants draw, one never really knows how bad or how good the real coverage will be until one builds the station. Well, it was built and it was bad.

10409   In fact, if you go out into the parking lot right now and tune your car radio to 105.1 MHz it is likely that you will receive the signal of CJED-FM Niagara Falls from across the lake rather than the signal of CHOQ-FM from some 10 kilometres away. That was the case as I arrived this morning.

10410   We first attempted to rectify things somewhat by considering moving the antenna from its current location north of Highway 401 to a downtown site such as First Canadian Place, which would in theory improve the signal in the Toronto core. However, the limitations are still there and the co-channel interference is still there.

10411   The achievable coverage looks somewhat like a narrow cigar pointed straight up Yonge Street. In fact, due to antenna pattern design constraints it is quite likely that some areas in the downtown would in fact have reduced coverage. The cost and technical difficulties involved weighed against the potential coverage enhancements make this a non-option.

10412   It is my opinion that the only real solution to CHOQ-FM's coverage problems at this time is the 88.1 MHz frequency. This signal has far less limitations and far less interference than does the 105.1 MHz frequency and is the only available option to allow CHOQ-FM to adequately serve its intended audience.

10413   M. DUGUAY : Par rapport aux zones d'interférence sur notre territoire, afin de connaître nos zones d'interférence et notre rayonnement réel, nous avons réalisé deux initiatives originales et créatives, soit un rallye en 2007 et un sondage sur Survey Monkey en 2011.

10414   Ce sondage révèle que 55 pour cent des répondants ne captent pas CHOQ-FM sur la fréquence 105,1. Pour connaître nos zones d'interférence, nous avons analysé les codes postaux de ces répondants. Nous obtenons ainsi un portrait très clair des lieux et de l'importance des zones d'interférence.

10415   Nous pouvons estimer que la fréquence 105,1 ne couvre même pas 80 pour cent du territoire qu'elle devrait couvrir. Les seuls endroits où la fréquence est audible se situent autour de notre site émetteur. Donc, le rayonnement de notre antenne ne couvre qu'une minime partie, soit 1/5 du territoire prévu en 2003.

10416   À la lumière de ces résultats, nous pouvons conclure que le pourcentage réel de notre auditoire qui ne nous capte pas est beaucoup plus grand que le 55 pour cent découlant de notre sondage, car, en fait, les francophones sont dispersés et répartis de façon assez uniforme à Toronto. Il n'existe pas de quartier présentant une forte concentration de francophones et francophiles. Ainsi, je n'ose même pas penser au nombre de personnes qui ne peuvent pas recevoir le signal de CHOQ-FM.

10417   Depuis 2006, plusieurs démarches ont été entreprises avec le soutien de différents professionnels pour rectifier la situation. Nous avons testé et évalué l'ensemble de notre équipement, évalué la possibilité de mettre des réémettrices, évalué la possibilité de changer de site émetteur. Des demandes répétées ont été soumises à Industrie Canada afin d'évaluer si les autres radios empiétant sur notre fréquence n'étaient pas en défaut.

10418   Aucune de ces options n'offre une solution viable à long terme. Les limites techniques inhérentes à la fréquence 105,1 FM ne peuvent être contournées. Cette affirmation a d'ailleurs été confirmée par notre ingénieur M. Jim Moltner ainsi que par M. John Dexter d'Industrie Canada.

10419   M. BOIS: Par rapport aux impacts de ces interférences sur notre radio et notre communauté.

10420   MME MORI: Bien sûr. Merci.

10421   M. BOIS: Les impératifs techniques de la fréquence105,1 amputent douloureusement notre plan d'affaires. Telles que présentées, nos recettes connaîtront un déclin important dès 2012, ce qui mettra rapidement en péril la pérennité de CHOQ-FM.

10422   Notre demande démontre que nos revenus sont en décroissance, surtout au niveau des ventes locales qui sont déjà très basses.

10423   Elles seront, dans trois ans, la moitié moins de celles que nous avons atteintes en 2008, alors que nos frais fixes connaîtront une légère augmentation.

10424   Cette décroissance minimise et nuit à la croissance de nos surplus. Nous serons rapidement en situation critique avec peu d'espoir d'inverser la tendance.

10425   En fait, il est difficile de développer les placements publicitaires avec de nouveaux clients potentiels qui constatent rapidement nos problèmes d'interférences. Il est encore plus difficile de renouveler avec d'anciens clients qui connaissent déjà l'ampleur de la situation.

10426   La clientèle d'affaire de CHOQ-FM est pratiquement inexistante et ceux qui ont investi l'ont fait davantage comme un acte de solidarité plutôt qu'un investissement rentable.

10427   Ce support s'épuise et tend à disparaître. L'enthousiasme du départ laisse place avec le temps à un réalisme difficile à contrer.

10428   D'autres menaces s'ajouteront dans les prochaines années: vente de la publicité sur Espace musique de Radio-Canada, multiplication des plateformes, disponibilité des services de radio provenant des pays des nouveaux immigrants.

10429   Il n'y a aucune façon pour nous de rivaliser sans une fréquence de qualité qui nous permette de rejoindre notre auditoire.

10430   CHOQ-FM ne bénéficie d'aucun financement récurrent. Notre radio doit sa survie à ses seuls revenus publicitaires et à sa capacité à obtenir des subventions gouvernementales ponctuelles pour réaliser des projets.

10431   Ces revenus et subventions risquent également de chuter si CHOQ-FM n'améliore pas sa capacité à rejoindre sa clientèle cible, et si l'on considère le climat économique et politique actuel, on peut s'attendre à ce que les divers paliers gouvernementaux réduisent leur appui à la communauté.

10432   CHOQ-FM compte actuellement sur 2 à 3 employés dont 1 à 1.5 d'entre eux travaillent à la programmation de la station. En de telles circonstances, maintenir une programmation locale, gérer une trentaine de bénévoles, accomplir sa mission et les différents projets ponctuels et assurer sa présence dans la communauté tient de l'exploit.

10433   Soyons clair, dans un marché comme Toronto, nous refuser le 88,1 FM élimine nos perspectives de développement économique et annonce la fermeture éminente de CHOQ-FM.

10434   Nous l'accorder permet au contraire de changer drastiquement la situation, soit d'augmenter nos ressources-humaines, d'améliorer notre programmation locale, de favoriser le développement des artistes franco-canadiens et laisse à notre communauté des avantages tangibles que seule une radio communautaire est en mesure de lui apporter.

10435   MME MORI: Pourquoi sommes-nous ceux qui desserviront le mieux le marché de Toronto et l'auditoire francophone?

10436   Je dois dire que nous sommes très confiants d'affirmer que CHOQ-FM est l'organisation qui desservira le mieux le marché de Toronto.

10437   En octroyant la fréquence88,1 à CHOQ-FM, le Conseil s'assure d'une véritable diversité des voix.

10438   D'abord, vous assurerez la présence d'une radio communautaire francophone forte dans le spectre radiophonique de Toronto en plus de préserver une continuité naturelle quant à l'utilisation non commerciale de cette fréquence.

10439   Ensuite, nous ajoutons à la pluralité du type de propriété, car nous sommes une coopérative à but non lucratif dont la propriété est collective et la gestion démocratique.

10440   Nous permettons à chaque Franco-Torontois d'être une partie prenante réelle de l'industrie radiophonique du Canada.

10441   Enfin, notre programmation constitue aussi un apport essentiel à la diversité des voix. CHOQ-FM diffuse une programmation totalement animée en français; 90 pour cent des productions sont locales et 25 à 30 pour cent sont animées par des bénévoles et stagiaires représentatifs de la diversité ethnoculturelle de Toronto.

10442   Les émissions que nous diffusons reflètent les perspectives et les préoccupations des différents groupes culturels qui composent notre communauté francophone.

10443   La diversité n'est pas chez nous seulement une question de langues ou de couleurs, mais aussi de générations.

10444   Les aînés sont proactifs sur nos ondes dans plusieurs productions, alors que plus de 300 jeunes ont animé des émissions ou réalisés des chroniques au cours des dernières années.

10445   Nos émissions traitent de l'actualité locale et communautaire avec la participation de plus de 120 groupes économiques, sociaux et communautaires.

10446   Les bulletins de nouvelles, des chroniques, des entrevues avec des acteurs de la communauté, des reportages, des campagnes de sensibilisation et d'éducation populaire constituent la colonne vertébrale de nos réalisations.

10447   Notre programmation a pour but d'informer, de divertir et d'aiguiser le discernement de nos auditeurs.

10448   La programmation de CHOQ-FM appuie considérablement les artistes francophones locaux et canadiens, qu'ils soient émergents ou non, indépendants ou issus de la diversité.

10449   Nous parlons d'artistes qui ne seraient pas diffusés sur le marché torontois, que ce soit à la radio commerciale ou même à la radio publique.

10450   Par exemple, des artistes émergents de diverses provinces telles que Divan, Anique Granger, Kevin McIntyre, Akwaba, Porcelaine ou encore des artistes franco-ontariens qui, aujourd'hui, sont connus et reconnus grâce à nos radios communautaires, comme par exemple Damien Robitaille de Penetanguishene, Cindy Doire de Timmins, Swing d'Ottawa ou encore Amélie Lefebvre à Toronto.

10451   Enfin, CHOQ-FM apporte une contribution importante au développement des talents et du contenu canadiens.

10452   Nous offrons du temps d'antenne aux artistes émergents francophones via des entrevues et des rendez-vous musicaux.

10453   Nous organisons un spectacle annuellement et appuyons concrètement la majorité des initiatives, concours, festivals culturels de nos partenaires tels que l'Association des Professionnels de la chanson et de la musique, la Franco-fête, Francophonie en fêtes, l'Alliance française, le Théâtre Canafrique, FKZO, les Coups de coeur francophones et bien d'autres.

10454   Avec un meilleur rayonnement, nos efforts auront un impact majeur sur le développement de nos talents canadiens.

10455   M. BOIS: Enfin, le CRTC a reconnu l'existence d'une demande, d'un besoin et d'un marché pour notre radio communautaire francophone. CHOQ-FM vise toutes les personnes capables de s'exprimer en français.

10456   Selon Statistiques Canada en 2006, 231860 personnes parlent le français dans la ville de Toronto. Ce chiffre augmente à 422940 personnes dans la grande région de Toronto.

10457   En tenant compte du rayonnement de 88,1 FM, cela nous permettrait de finalement rejoindre les Torontois, mais aussi près de 128000 personnes issues des ceinturants Toronto.

10458   Donc, le 88,1 FM permettrait de rejoindre une clientèle cible de 359810 Francophones et francophiles.

10459   En d'autres mots, le 88,1 FM permettrait d'accroître considérablement notre auditoire.

10460   Rappelons que notre sondage dévoile que 86 pour cent des répondants seraient incités à écouter notre radio si notre signal hertzien était amélioré.

10461   En octroyant le 88,1 FM à CHOQ-FM, soit une fréquence que notre auditoire cible serait en mesure de capter via leur poste de radio, cela nous permettrait d'accroître considérablement notre part de marché.

10462   La communauté francophone de Toronto est non seulement l'une des plus importantes au Canada, mais elle est aussi multiethnique et diversifiée.

10463   Un Francophone de Toronto sur trois appartient à une minorité visible. Ceux-ci proviennent d'Europe, d'Afrique, d'Asie, du Moyen-Orient, d'Amérique du Nord et des Antilles francophones.

10464   Octroyer le 88,1 FM à CHOQ-FM c'est aussi répondre à la diversité qui compose la communauté francophone de Toronto.

10465   Plusieurs indicateurs démontrent la popularité et le dynamisme du français à Toronto.

10466   De plus, les Franco-ontariens s'organisent sur le territoire de Toronto qui compte maintenant plusieurs centaines d'organisations francophones.

10467   Il existe même un projet de création d'un quartier francophone à Toronto et c'est notre coopérative qui a reçu le mandat de faire l'étude de sa faisabilité.

10468   Nous avons aussi créé en mars 2008 le 1er portail francophone à Toronto, soit le qui répertorie tous les événements, organisations, produits et services disponibles en français dans la grande région de Toronto.

10469   Bref, la coopérative radiophonique a su aussi rivaliser d'originalité et d'audace dans ses projets afin de soutenir sa diffusion hertzienne.

10470   Offrir le 88,1 FM à CHOQ-FM, c'est donner une voix à notre communauté, mais aussi lui fournir un outil de développement socioéconomique et culturel. CHOQ-FM apporte à notre communauté des avantages tangibles importants.

10471   Chaque centime qui entre et sort de notre entreprise d'économie sociale est un avantage tangible direct et indirect pour notre communauté.

10472   C'est d'ailleurs pourquoi nous nous engageons à réinvestir 100 pour cent des revenus supplémentaires de la fréquence 99,1 FM dans notre communauté.

10473   Les avantages tangibles, directs et indirects, c'est intrinsèquement ce que nous sommes et ce que nous faisons.

10474   Voici en bref d'autres projets que l'obtention de la fréquence 88,1 FM nous permettrait de mettre en place:

10475   - une salle de presse et assurer une meilleure couverture de l'actualité municipale;

10476   - une radio étudiante avec le Collège Boréal, dont certaines émissions seraient diffusées simultanément sur le 88,1 FM et avec la radio Internet du campus de Glendon, volet francophone de l'Université de York;

10477   - une caravane pour couvrir en direct les festivals et activités communautaires et les jeux Panaméricains de Toronto qui auront lieu à Toronto en 2015;

10478   - reprendre sur nos ondes, le projet avec nos aînés et celui d'antenne-jeunesse qui amène des centaines d'élèves du secondaire des écoles francophones, d'immersions ou privées, comme Upper Canada College.

10479   - diffuser, via un poste de radio, notre programmation dans les lieux publics s'adressant aux Francophones et francophiles.

10480   M. LÉVESQUE: Loi sur les langues officielles.

10481   En nous octroyant le 88,1, le Conseil répondra aux objectifs visés par la Loi sur les langues officielles en permettant de favoriser l'épanouissement des minorités linguistiques, ce que notre radio communautaire n'arrive pas à faire à cause des limites techniques de la fréquence105,1.

10482   Considérant les fréquences radiophoniques comme bien public, le fait d'octroyer la licence88,1 à la radio communautaire de Toronto permettrait donc au conseil de prendre une mesure positive pour s'assurer de son engagement en vertu de l'article41 de la Loi sur les langues officielles, et ainsi d'assurer le respect du français et de l'anglais, leur égalité de statut et l'égalité de droits et de privilèges quant à leur usage dans les institutions fédérales.

10483   MME MORI: En conclusion, la question à laquelle il s'agit vraiment de répondre est la suivante: quel requérant fera la meilleure utilisation de la dernière fréquence disponible à Toronto?

10484   Voici pourquoi CHOQ-FM est le bon choix.

10485   En nous octroyant le 88,1, le Conseil favorise l'application de la loi sur les langues officielles et contribue directement à sa mise en oeuvre.

10486   Par ailleurs, le 88,1 permettrait d'assurer la survie et la croissance de notre radio, soit la seule radio communautaire francophone de Toronto. Nous pourrions ainsi vraiment rejoindre notre auditoire cible et augmenter nos parts de marché.

10487   Le 88,1 nous permettrait aussi d'amener de nouvelles personnes à écouter la radio. Nous parlons principalement de ceux qui actuellement n'écoutent pas ce médium car ils ne sont pas desservis. Pensons aux Francophones unilingues, les nouveaux arrivants, les jeunes et plusieurs francophiles.

10488   Nous octroyer le 88,1 permettrait d'accroître la qualité et la quantité de notre programmation locale et de mieux exposer les artistes émergents francophones canadiens. Nous parlons ici d'artistes qui, autrement, ne seraient jamais diffusés à Toronto.

10489   Le 88,1 permettrait d'avoir un impact considérable sur le développement culturel, socio-économique de la communauté francophone de Toronto, une communauté évoluant en situation minoritaire.

10490   Elle permettrait d'assurer un apport important et unique à la diversité des voix du spectre radiophonique de Toronto.

10491   En nous octroyant le 88,1, soit une fréquence qui appartenait à une station de Campus, donc une licence non commerciale, le Conseil s'assure d'une continuité naturelle de l'utilisation non commerciale de cette fréquence.

10492   En nous octroyant le 88,1, vous aurez l'assurance que cette fréquence ne sera jamais vendue ni utilisée comme une simple réémettrice comme le proposent d'autres requérants.

10493   En nous octroyant le 88,1, le Conseil offre une belle reconnaissance en cette année internationale de la Coopérative.

10494   En nous accordant le 88,1, nous débuterons les travaux dès le lendemain de votre décision. Nous avons le financement et l'équipe de professionnels pour réaliser les travaux dans les plus brefs délais.

10495   Pour conclure, les résultats que nous avons atteints par le passé prouvent que nous avons l'expérience, l'expertise, la passion, l'audace, les idées et la détermination pour maximiser l'utilisation et l'exploitation de la fréquence 88,1.

10496   Nous désirons vous remercier et nous serions heureux de répondre à vos questions que je vous demanderais de m'adresser directement.

10497   LE PRÉSIDENT: Est-ce que monsieur Moltner est ici?

10498   LA SECRÉTAIRE: Non, Monsieur le Président. Il ne comparaîtra pas aujourd'hui.

10499   LE PRÉSIDENT: O.K. Merci.

10500   Le conseillère Poirier commencera nos questions.

10501   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Bonjour tout le monde. Je vais commencer avec quelques questions techniques.

10502   So I'll start in English with Mr. Moultner, okay?

10503   By the way, those who need a translation device it's outdoors. You can use it any time because most of the intervention will be in French.

10504   You told us that there is interference with Niagara and Peterborough; plus there are some first and second adjacent with two other radio stations. And you told us that there is no other issue.

10505   But I'm not so sure if you moved down the antenna elsewhere downtown. Did you do so?

10506   MR. MOLTNER: We looked at moving it downtown. In fact, we did an entire application which was submitted to Industry Canada based on moving it downtown. It just does not fix the problem.

10507   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Can you tell me how it doesn't fix the problem; why it doesn't fix the problem?

10508   MR. MOLTNER: Because the protraction constraints are so severe and, on the other side of basically the same coin, the incoming interference is so severe that you just cannot achieve the coverage.

10509   So you can -- it's somewhat like what I was saying for Dufferin yesterday. You can take the little circle and move it around Toronto but you can't make it any bigger.

10510   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Okay. So there is no other solution than trying to get that new frequency?

10511   MR. MOLTNER: Compared to 88.1 there is no other solution.

10512   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Is it a worst situation than Dufferin or a better situation than Dufferin? Can you compare those two?

10513   I placed you in a bad situation to ask you that question.

10514   MR. MOLTNER: You do, so I will bow out of that situation with you.


10516   MME MORI: Toutefois, on devrait rappeler que dans le discours de monsieur Moltner, il précise vraiment que nous avons vraiment la pire des fréquences « the bottom of the barrel ». So, je pense que, outre la difficulté de monsieur Moltner d'avoir différents clients, je pense que la situation est claire.

10517   D'un autre côté aussi, pour nous, puis ensuite je vous laisserai continuer. S'il y avait eu la possibilité, si le fait de déménager le site émetteur de place avait été une option, nous l'aurions fait.

10518   Et c'est tout simplement pas viable de pouvoir le faire et déplacer et de couvrir comme vraiment encore moins de territoire qu'on le fait actuellement. On est à 20 pour cent, même pas.

10519   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, déplacer l'antenne ne répond pas à votre problématique, n'apporte pas vraiment de solution.

10520   MME MORI: Absolument pas, parce que sinon, nous l'aurions fait.

10521   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait.

10522   Si, maintenant on vous permettrait d'avoir l'antenne, la fréquence88.1, est-ce que vous auriez l'argent pour payer tous ces changements qui sont nécessaires?

10523   Je sais que vous en parlez un peu dans votre application. Mais j'aimerais que vous résumiez, parce que pour une radio communautaire, ce n'est pas toujours évident d'avoir le capital nécessaire pour faire l'investissement dans une nouvelle fréquence.

10524   Alors, avez-vous l'agent pour le faire, si on vous donnait la fréquence?

10525   MME MORI: Oui, nous avons l'argent pour le faire.

10526   Nous avons estimé les coûts qui ont été estimés par la firme de monsieur Gus Staudenmayer (ph) - je suis vraiment désolée de me tromper dans le nom - les coûts sont estimés à environ 270 000$.

10527   Actuellement, la fondation Trillium nous a confirmé que nous avions pour 135 500$ de disponible. Nous avons également déposé une demande de Patrimoine canadien de l'ordre de 150 000$.

10528   Je sais que la demande a été présentée à leur comité.

10529   Je sais aussi que nous sommes dans une de leur préoccupation première, parce que ça fait depuis 2006. Alors, nous étions prévus dans leur... excusez-moi, le mot m'échappe. Mais on était dans leur planification. Donc, on est là.

10530   Et aussi, le fait qu'aujourd'hui, qu'on ait toujours pas eu de réponse, ça signifie une très bonne réponse.

10531   Au-delà du fait que nous avons pas la confirmation de Patrimoine canadien, je peux vous confirmer que la communauté, nous avons réalisé une levée de fonds qui n'est pas terminée.

10532   Actuellement, nous avons amassé pour 75 000$, donc, qui pourraient être servis pour pallier, si jamais Patrimoine canadien nous disait non. Puis au final, si on fait ce calcul-là, il resterait qu'il nous manque... bien, il nous manquerait environ 30 à 50 000$ et la coopérative a cet argent-là dans ses coffres en ce moment.

10533   Donc, la réponse est oui, nous avons le financement.

10534   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, vous attendez la réponse de Patrimoine Canada pour investir, je pense, 150 000$.

10535   MME MORI: Oui.

10536   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous n'avez pas encore la réponse, mais vous attendez une réponse bientôt.

10537   MME MORI: Oui.

10538   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous avez projeté une levée de fonds équivalente à 90 000$ par année pour trois ans. De la première levée de fonds, vous avez amassé 75 000$. C'est ça?

10539   MME MORI: Oui, et nous n'avons pas terminé encore.

10540   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait. Alors, il manquerait, pour l'instant aujourd'hui, un peu d'argent. Mais vous dites être confiant de pouvoir obtenir cet argent-là.

10541   MME MORI: Absolument.

10542   Mais en fait, avec ou sans Patrimoine, on espère pouvoir avoir leur soutien, parce que ça nous permettrait de respirer un peu mieux et d'avoir nos ressources.

10543   Mais d'une façon ou d'une autre, avec ou sans cette confirmation-là, nous sommes prêts demain à faire les travaux.

10544   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait.

10545   Dans votre document, vous parlez aussi du fait qu'il n'existe pas de quartier, présentant une forte concentration francophone et francophile.

10546   MME MORI: Oui.

10547   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, toute la population francophone et francophile est éparse à travers le Grand Toronto?

10548   MME MORI: Elle est vraiment dispersée. C'est vraiment un des grands défis de la communauté francophone de Toronto qui est reconnue et connue par les bailleurs de fonds, par toutes les organisations.

10549   C'est vraiment un défi concret.

10550   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Alors contrairement à parfois, certaines ethnies qui sont dans certains secteurs particuliers que l'on peut viser, dans votre cas, vous aviez besoin d'une fréquence qui est plus étendue, parce que tout le monde est un peu épars dans la ville.

10551   MME MORI: Exactement. Aussi, je crois qu'il est important de mentionner que le 88,1 c'est un peu la dernière possibilité qui s'offre à nous. C'est un peu la dernière possibilité qui s'offre aussi aux gens qui habitent dans la région, qui ceinture le Grand Toronto.

10552   Donc, il y a beaucoup de Francophones, francophiles à cet endroit-là, puis c'est vraiment le seul espoir que nous avons de vraiment pouvoir leur offrir - il y a des zones d'interférence, on le comprend - mais au moins, de pouvoir leur offrir un accès à leur radio communautaire et d'y participer pleinement.

10553   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous parlez, par contre, de la possibilité de créer une sorte de quartier francophone...

10554   MME MORI: Oui.

10555   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : ...ici à Toronto. Où est-ce que ce serait? Ce serait localité où?

10556   MME MORI: Le quartier francophone serait - historiquement, il existait un quartier francophone. Et on parle de la zone allant entre Bay, la rue Bay jusqu'à Parlement et qui irait de Bloor jusqu'à environ c'est Queen ou King Street.

10557   Ce qui est important de mentionner, puis j'apprécie votre question, c'est que c'est un quartier francophone oui, parce qu'il y a plusieurs organisations qui offrent des services aux nouveaux arrivants. Où, il y a également le Collège Boréal qui est installé.

10558   Donc, c'est un endroit où il y a beaucoup de services qui sont disponibles pour les Francophones. Mais ça veut pas dire que c'est l'endroit où les Francophones habitent. Donc, il faudrait vraiment faire une distinction entre les deux.

10559   C'est un endroit aussi parce qu'il y a TFO qui est là. Il y a également le centre francophone. Donc, dans les rues on entend parler français. Et c'est un petit peu avec... puis il y a la première paroisse aussi qui est exactement dans ce quartier-là.

10560   Donc, le but ici, c'était simplement, de façon concise, de vous dire qu'il y a des organisations où on voit qu'il y a une quinzaine, une vingtaine d'organisations à Toronto dans ce quartier-là. Donc, il y a un potentiel.

10561   Mais la population francophone ou francophile, c'est pas là qu'elle habite nécessairement.

10562   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Monsieur Bois disait dans sa présentation que:

« Nous serons rapidement en situation critique avec peu d'espoir d'inverser la tendance. »

10563   Je me demandais si on pouvait relativiser. C'est-à-dire, est-ce qu'une situation critique pour une radio communautaire est différente d'une situation critique pour une radio commerciale?

10564   MME MORI: Bien, en fait, on démontre dans nos projections financières que si nous obtenons pas le 88,1, dès la troisième année, on est en déficit.

10565   Puis c'est aussi important de mentionner que le niveau de vie qui est à Toronto, qui est propre au marché torontois fait en sorte qu'on peut difficilement se comparer, par exemple, à d'autres radios communautaires.

10566   Je sais pas si je réponds à votre question en ce moment?


10568   MME MORI: Je m'excuse, est-ce que vous pourriez la...

10569   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Oui, ma question c'est de voir si, quand on se dit dans une situation critique, parce qu'on a entendu plusieurs radios commerciales nous dire: « Nous sommes dans une situation critique. Si vous ne nous donnez pas la fréquence88.1, nous fermons les portes, c'est critique. »

10570   Ma question est, est-ce que c'est aussi critique quand on pense à une radio communautaire, plus ou moins critique qu'une...

10571   MME MORI: C'est encore plus critique.

10572   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Pourquoi?

10573   MME MORI: Parce que la radio communautaire, bien, c'est un outil, c'est une voix de sa communauté. C'est un outil de développement socioéconomique.

10574   Ça favorise également la culture, le fait que la culture puisse prendre une place importante et continuer à évoluer.

10575   Donc, l'idée c'est que si on est en situation critique et qu'on ferme CHOQ-FM, c'est pas un bailleur... c'est pas un actionnaire qui perd de l'argent. C'est toute une communauté qui perd un outil qui est prouvé qui est vraiment super important dans sa communauté pour son développement, son épanouissement pour sa construction identitaire pour contrer l'assimilation des Francophones.

10576   C'est un outil aussi pour amener les jeunes vers la radio, vers leur culture. Donc, on répond vraiment beaucoup. Et l'implication qu'on fait avec les gens de notre communauté, on l'a mentionné, 20 à 30 pour cent de notre programmation est faite par les gens de notre communauté.

10577   Donc, c'est un outil qui ne se retrouve pas. Donc, ce n'est pas simplement fermer une radio pour fermer une radio. C'est fermer la porte à la seule possibilité d'avoir une radio communautaire francophone et un outil de développement de notre communauté. C'est beaucoup, là.

10578   M. BOIS: J'ajouterai à ça qu'en tant que personnes issues de minorité visible, on est un point d'ancrage pour ces nouveaux arrivants des pays francophones qui arrivent dans la ville reine, à Toronto et ils se sentent... ils sentent tout de suite un sentiment d'appartenance, juste en entendant parler français à notre radio. Donc, c'est vraiment important.

10579   MME MORI: Je pense que François aurait quelque chose à ajouter.

10580   M. CôTÉ: Je voudrais juste ajouter, Commissaire Poirier, que... Je pense, dans le sens de votre question, si on prend un marché comme Iqaluit, peut-être qu'on peut sauver une station de radio sans avoir d'employés.

10581   Ici, à Toronto, ça va être beaucoup plus difficile, étant donné les coûts que ça implique, les coûts de diffusion, les coûts de location de tour, les coûts de location pour les studios et tout ça, alors, la situation est fort différente. Et pour ici, à Toronto, effectivement, quand on parle de situation critique et que la station pourrait fermer, ça pourrait fermer, effectivement.

10582   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Je regardais beaucoup l'aspect financier de la radio. Je sais que depuis 2006 vous avez significativement amélioré la situation, votre dette a diminué, vos actifs nets, ça a augmenté. Bon, il y a vos surplus qui restent en déclin. Par contre je constate que vous espérez augmenter vos revenus de publicité locale de 900 pour cent, à peu près, avec une nouvelle fréquence. Est-ce que c'est réaliste?

10583   MME MORI: C'est une très belle question et je vais vous dire que oui. Et expliquons-le année après année.

10584   Si on regarde la première année le montant que nous avons indiqué, c'est-à-dire près de 100000$. Si on le compare avec les chiffres -- et je ne vais pas le mentionner, mais avec les chiffres que nous avons eus en 2008, alors que j'étais la seule à faire de la vente publicitaire. Alors, c'est un quart de mon temps que j'octroyais, justement, à faire des ventes publicitaires; la différence, elle n'est pas grande.

10585   Et aussi, on a reçu l'appui d'environ 113 organisations francophones. Si on fait juste l'exercice de dire que chacune de ces organisations nous donnait entre 500 et 1000$ par année, et bien, on atteint déjà ce chiffre-là. Donc, à notre sens, c'est un chiffre qui est réaliste, d'autant plus que dans nos dépenses nous incluons qu'une ressource humaine serait ajoutée, qu'on aurait un vendeur supplémentaire l'année un, et l'année deux, on en aurait deux. Et pour terminer, à l'année trois, en ayant trois vendeurs, qui permettraient justement d'exploiter les revenus locaux et de pouvoir avoir de nouvelles...

10586   Donc, c'est tout à fait réaliste, si on se compare à ce qu'on a été capable d'atteindre et si on se compare au fait qu'on aurait les ressources humaines pour pouvoir le réaliser. Donc, oui.

10587   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, avec une nouvelle fréquence, vous pourriez rejoindre un plus grand auditoire... Qui serait de combien, à peu près, cet auditoire-là, de plus grand?

10588   MME MORI: Bien, on mentionnait dans la présentation, puis le chiffre exact, on parle de 231800 personnes francophiles/francophones. Donc, nous, on s'adresse aux personnes qui parlent le français à Toronto. On ajouterait un 128000 dans la... dans le... Je m'excuse...

10589   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Le grand Toronto?

10590   MME MORI: Dans les villes qui ceinturent, dans le grand Toronto, où est-ce que le 88,1 a des chances de rentrer. Donc, le marché est plus grand, mais c'est surtout que la raison... la raison pour laquelle les organisations, celles que moi-même j'ai approchées (c'est moi qui le fais depuis que je suis là, depuis six ans)... C'est qu'on me dit: Tonia, on ouvre le poste de radio et on te capte pas. Je veux dire, tu as beau nous vendre le plus beau des projets, mais si à la maison... si dans notre organisation, dans notre salle d'attente, aussi, des services, on ne peut pas vous capter, on ne peut pas... on ne peut pas investir.

10591   Donc, ils l'ont fait vraiment pour nous appuyer, au départ, mais d'un autre côté, on a l'assurance que si on entre, on comble vraiment un besoin. Il n'y a aucun média au niveau de la radio qui est en mesure de rejoindre la même population que nous. Ça ne se fait pas.

10592   Et ça n'existe tout simplement pas sur notre marché.

10593   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, les revenus publicitaires seraient largement augmentés, avec une nouvelle fréquence. Mais je note aussi qu'une partie de vos revenus viennent de subventions gouvernementales et les montants sont très fluctuants d'une année à l'autre. Est-ce que vous avez des argents garantis des gouvernements, comme on a dans les radios communautaires au Québec, par exemple?

10594   MME MORI: Absolument pas. On n'a aucun financement qui est récurrent. Toutefois, nous avons l'habilité à l'interne, et également l'outil qui nous permet de... puis on le voit, on arrive à intéresser beaucoup de... plusieurs ministères à investir et à réaliser des projets ponctuels, dans notre radio et avec nos partenaires.

10595   Je peux vous donner quelques exemples, si vous voulez, de projets?


10597   MME MORI: D'accord. Nous avons réalisé différentes campagnes de sensibilisation. Donc, nous avons réalisé une campagne qui sensibilisait à la protection de la vie privée, donc, informer les gens qu'ils devaient faire attention à leurs renseignements personnels.

10598   Ça s'est traduit sur notre radio; ça s'est traduit sur Internet; ça s'est traduit TFO... bien, la télévision francophone de l'Ontario, qui ont embarqué dans notre projet. Dans les médias également, francophones en... dans la... de la presse écrite; également radio, au niveau de l'Ontario.

10599   Donc, on propose des projets comme ça, qui viennent augmenter le discernement puis vraiment répondre à l'actualité des problématiques actuelles, mais vraiment cibler notre message à la population que nous rejoignons.

10600   Donc, les projets qu'on monte, oui, ça fluctue en fonction des années. D'un autre côté, jusqu'à maintenant, nous avons toujours atteint les objectifs que nous nous étions fixés à cet endroit-là.

10601   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : J'essaie de voir comment vous pouvez convaincre des commerçants d'acheter de la publicité, et les gouvernements, aussi, de vous en donner puisque vous n'avez pas de mesure de votre auditoire. Comment vous faites pour à peu près avoir une idée du nombre de francophones ou francophiles qui vous écoutent, ici, à Toronto?

10602   MME MORI: Bien on... Avant de réaliser le sondage en ligne qu'on a fait au mois de novembre et décembre, avant de débuter, on n'était pas au courant. On savait qu'on avait des gros problèmes d'interférences. On a fait un rallye et tout, mais on n'était pas au courant qu'on ne couvrait que 20 pour cent de notre pourcentage de marché.

10603   Donc, c'est sûr qu'on arrive avec... pour le gouvernement, on arrive avec des projets qui répondent vraiment, qui ciblent les francophones, mais avec vraiment des projets originaux, qu'ils n'ont pas l'habitude d'avoir. Donc, on pique la curiosité, puis on arrive à être ingénieux.

10604   Aussi, quand on parle de projets gouvernementaux comme ça, pour nous, c'était important, mais on a toujours allié plusieurs partenaires, de faire en sorte que le message puisse être, oui, sur nos ondes, mais pas juste sur nos ondes. Il est sur Internet et ça va se discuter dans les différents symposiums.

10605   Donc, on a vraiment fait en sorte que le message... on fait en sorte que le message se traduise.

10606   Maintenant, pour les organisations locales, et bien, comme je le dis, aujourd'hui... comme je le dis, bien, c'est en décroissance depuis le début. Donc, de plus en plus, c'est difficile de vendre la réalité de notre...

10607   C'est difficile, finalement... Vous le voyez, c'est en décroissance depuis 2008, au niveau des ventes locales. Mais ce que je veux dire aussi, c'est que cette année, les ventes locales, avec tout ce qui s'est passé, puis le dossier que nous avons monté pour vous, fait en sorte qu'on n'atteint même pas ce que nous avions... On est encore plus bas que ce qu'on avait en 2011.

10608   Donc, c'est vraiment... On a besoin d'une solution, parce que... on peut plus...

10609   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Oui. Et si la fréquence on ne vous la donne pas, là? Vous me dites que les chiffres sont en perte de vitesse. Si vous ne l'obtenez pas, qu'est-ce qui va se passer, pour vous, à ce moment-là?

10610   MME MORI: Bien, si on ne l'obtient pas, bien, nos ventes locales vont être à zéro. Donc, on n'a plus de ventes locales. Puis, tout le monde est au courant de notre situation, maintenant, donc, il n'y a plus moyen de faire miroiter quoi que ce soit comme réalité. Les gens savent qu'on ne couvre pas notre territoire. Donc, c'est... de façon imminente, nos ventes... nos ventes nationales vont diminuer, nos projets gouvernementaux, on va... On ne pourra même plus compter là-dessus.

10611   Donc, ce qu'on a fait, c'est « le tout pour le tout », aujourd'hui. C'est qu'on a dit: Bien, voici réellement notre situation. Trouvez-nous une solution, parce qu'on ne pourra pas aller de l'avant comme ça.

10612   Donc, le déclin va être encore plus rapidement que celui que nous avions prévu dans les prévisions que nous avons soumises.

10613   M. CôTÉ: J'aimerais juste ajouter que si par malheur la radio de Toronto fermait, ça serait un impact sur toutes les radios communautaires francophones au Canada.

10614   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Pourquoi?

10615   M. CôTÉ: Parce que ça demeure la radio qui aurait un auditoire potentiel le plus grand (pour nous). Quand on vend de la publicité, que ce soit au niveau fédéral, au niveau provincial, on nous demande toujours « Est-ce que vous desservez la grande région de Toronto? » Alors, si on n'avait pas notre radio à Toronto, ça serait un impact majeur sur tout l'ensemble du réseau des radios communautaires.

10616   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : J'aimerais que vous m'en parliez un petit peu plus, de ça, parce que je n'ai vu aucun document qui traitait de ce sujet-là.

10617   Si je comprends bien, vous êtes en train de me dire que pour les radios francophones en milieu minoritaire au Canada, le fait de ne pas pouvoir compter sur une radio communautaire francophone à Toronto, où est le plus grand marché, pourrait avoir des retombées sur l'ensemble des autres radios?

10618   M. CôTÉ: Absolument. Ça serait des retombées négatives. Lorsqu'on fait les représentations au niveau du gouvernement fédéral, c'est évident qu'on nous demande si Toronto fait partie de tout ça. Quand on va voir Cossette, bien, c'est la même chose. Cossette nous demande « Est-ce que Toronto fait partie de votre réseau? »

10619   Si on n'a pas Toronto, demain matin, on revient à ce qu'on était avant, alors que nos ventes étaient beaucoup plus basses. Maintenant, elles sont beaucoup plus hautes, parce que justement, on peut compter sur Toronto dans notre réseau.

10620   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Et est-ce qu'il y a beaucoup d'autres radios communautaires francophones en milieu minoritaire?

10621   M. CôTÉ: Bien, on est 28 radios francophones en ondes. Alors, ça va toucher les 28 radios. Et déjà que les revenus publicitaires au niveau de la publicité nationale ne sont pas très élevés, s'il faut en plus couper là-dedans parce qu'on perd Toronto, ça va affecter toutes nos radios.

10622   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Merci. Ça va. Vous n'avez rien d'autre à ajouter sur ce sujet-là, alors je vais passer à un autre sujet.

10623   Madame Mori, vous avez apporté un élément que je n'ai pas entendu jusqu'à présent dans cette audience. À la page 7, en bas de page, vous dites que d'abord, ça assurerait: « la présence d'une radio communautaire francophone forte dans le spectre radiophonique de Toronto en plus de préserver une continuité naturelle quant à l'utilisation non-commerciale de cette fréquence. »

10624   J'aimerais que vous élaboriez un peu là-dessus, en sachant que bien sûr, la fréquence avant appartenait à une radio campus. Alors là, vous êtes en train de nous dire que vous souhaiteriez que cette fréquence-là soit préservée pour des organismes à but non-lucratif?

10625   MME MORI: À but non-lucratif, mais avec une fréquence également qui est non-commerciale, parce qu'on a vu que certains requérants aussi étaient des organisations à but non-lucratif, mais leur intérêt est toujours d'investir dans une... d'obtenir une licence commerciale.

10626   Ça peut se comprendre aussi dans la mesure où, comme que... les fréquences qui sont commerciales ont des barèmes différents en terme de programmation, des conditions qui sont différentes que la radio communautaire.

10627   Oui, Ryerson avait la radio... c'était une radio de campus. Pour nous, ce qui est important, c'est que dans le spectre radiophonique, alors, dans ce que vous appelez la diversité des voix, la radio non-commerciale a sa place et nous sommes la seule à vous offrir cette option-là, une radio communautaire. Et pour nous, c'est vraiment important qu'il y ait une continuité parce que aussi que...

10628   Aussi, je ne pourrais pas vous dire exactement à quelle date Ryerson a obtenu la fréquence, mais je suis certaine que vous, les commissaires, lorsque vous avez pris d'autres décisions d'octroyer d'autres fréquences, dans votre raisonnement vous avez toujours tenu compte que dans le spectre, il y avait au moins deux radios de campus qui étaient avec des licences non-commerciales.

10629   Donc, pour résumer, la présence de radios non-commerciales à Toronto est vraiment très faible et nous apporterions vraiment un apport vraiment important dans le cadre de la diversité des voix.

10630   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Abordons le multiculturalisme.

10631   Vous en avez parlé tantôt un petit peu, monsieur Bois. Toronto est une ville multiculturelle. On dit que 50 pour cent de la population est une population qui vient de l'extérieur du Canada, alors j'aimerais que vous nous parliez des communautés ethniques francophones du grand Toronto.

10632   M. BOIS: On peut parler de ceux qui viennent de l'Afrique, en grande partie, Afrique francophone, surtout. Je parle aussi de beaucoup d'Haïtiens. Étant Haïtien personnellement, surtout avec les événements de 2010, il y a beaucoup d'Haïtiens qui sont venus s'installer à Toronto.

10633   On peut aussi parler de tous ceux qui viennent de la France, toute l'Europe. Je collabore avec des organismes francophones où je côtoie des gens qui viennent de la France, de la Belgique, tous ceux qui viennent de la Martinique, de la Guadeloupe. Donc, c'est une communauté qui est très multi-ethnique, mais aussi très francophone.

10634   Madame Mori a parlé, par exemple, dans son exposé, du festival FKZO. C'est quelque chose de tout nouveau. Mais ça met au coeur la musique qui vient des Antilles, les Antilles francophones.

10635   Donc, c'est pour ça qu'une radio communautaire, comme nous présentons la demande aujourd'hui, c'est excessivement important parce que ça donne une voix et ça donne un point d'ancrage à ces communautés qui viennent s'établir... sans compter aussi ceux qui arrivent au Québec et que, de Montréal étant, ils viennent s'établir à Toronto.

10636   MME MORI: J'aimerais également ajouter... Il y a plusieurs organisations francophones qui reçoivent... qui ont le mandat, par différents ministères et qui reçoivent du financement récurrent pour venir et répondre aux besoins des nouveaux arrivants. On l'a précisé dans notre présentation: un francophone sur trois est issu d'une... est une minorité visible, disons-le comme ça.

10637   Aussi, je pense que c'est important de mentionner que sur nos ondes, cette diversité-là, elle est présente. Alors, nous avons des gens du Congo, du Niger, la Côte-d'Ivoire, le Gabon, le Maroc, Haïti, également, de la Guadeloupe qui sont présents, qui sont actifs sur nos ondes. Pour nous, c'est important que cette programmation-là soit le reflet de la diversité qui est propre... On le sait, Toronto, c'est la porte d'entrée, c'est la porte de la diversité au Canada. Donc, nécessairement, ça se reflète sur notre communauté.

10638   Enfin, sur notre conseil d'administration, j'aimerais aussi vous mentionner que c'est représentatif aussi. Donc, nous avons un Haïtien, une personne qui est de la Côte-d'Ivoire, des Franco-ontariens, un ou deux Québécois aussi, mais on est vraiment représentatifs de qu'est-ce qu'est devenue cette communauté francophone.

10639   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Et quel pourcentage de votre programmation traite particulièrement de sujets liés au multiculturalisme?

10640   MME MORI: Bien, si on parle... On peut le voir de deux façons. On a 25 à 30 pour cent -- parce que certaines émissions ne sont pas tout le temps à toutes les semaines -- qui sont réalisés par des bénévoles qui sont issus de notre diversité. On va dire qu'environ 50 pour cent -- donc, on est environ à 15 pour cent, 15 ou 10 pour cent qui représentent... qui sont des émissions qui sont amenées pour et par des gens de la communauté.

10641   On a déjà été beaucoup plus fort que ça dans le passé, puis il faut simplement le dire comme ça. Je veux dire, faire du bénévolat à la radio, animer une émission, ça demande du temps, ça demande vraiment un don de soi aussi, souvent.

10642   Et le fait de ne pas être entendu, le fait de parler dans... j'allais dire « en l'air », mais ce n'est pas ça, mais le fait de parler puis de ne pas être entendu, ça fait en sorte que ça diminue... Nos bénévoles ont augmenté; on a fait tout le temps beaucoup de travail, mais ce n'est pas un environnement qui est propice à les attirer. Puis c'est d'ailleurs ce que nous allons faire lorsque vous allez nous donner le 88,1.

10643   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : La voix francophone est entendue par trois chaînes en tout à Toronto: il y a Espace musique, il y a la radio de Radio-Canada (la Première Chaîne) et il y a vous.

10644   MME MORI: Oui.

10645   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Est-ce que dans une population de 5.6 millions d'habitants avec à peu près un demi million de francophones... est-ce que vous ne jugez pas que c'est suffisant?

10646   MME MORI: Bien, en fait, je pense que la radio publique, elle a un mandat à jouer qui est important, mais d'un autre côté la radio communautaire joue un mandat que la radio publique ne fait pas. On est complémentaires dans notre programmation -- et à votre réponse, je réponds non, parce que nous sommes un radio qui est locale, une radio de proximité, et qui engage les gens de sa communauté. Donc, on offre un service complètement différent et ça serait vraiment une perte que de perdre une radio communautaire comme la nôtre.

10647   Est-ce que je réponds à votre question?

10648   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Oui. Oui, ça répond bien.

10649   Donc, le fait que vous ayez des artistes émergents, par exemple, est-ce que vous avez un rôle, au niveau des artistes émergents que Radio-Canada n'a pas, un rôle au niveau de l'ethnicité aussi, à ce que vous venez de dire?

10650   MME MORI: Bien, absolument. En termes de notre programmation, le fait -- puis comme François le disait, nous sommes à Toronto, donc, le marché est intéressant. Quelqu'un qui ne connaît pas notre situation est vraiment intéressé par notre radio. On est un peu la plaque tournante où on reçoit beaucoup d'information des artistes émergents. On les reçoit sur nos ondes, ils sont présents, on diffuse leur musique. C'est le rôle qu'on joue. On travaille beaucoup avec l'APCM, qui est vraiment l'association qui représente les artistes franco-ontariens, les francophones hors Québec. Donc, notre rôle est très, très important, puis on appuie vraiment toutes les démarches. Puis les artistes qu'on va diffuser ne sont pas diffusés nécessairement dans la radio publique, au contraire. Ça rentre pas dans le même mandat.

10651   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Est-ce que vous avez reçu, finalement, le support du commissaire aux langues officielles, dans votre demande?

10652   MME MORI: Nous avons reçu le support du commissaire Boileau, alors le commissaire aux services en français de l'Ontario, et également le support de monsieur Fraser, alors le commissaire aux langues officielles. La lettre a été déposée lors de la période d'intervention en avril.


10654   MME MORI: Alors, ils ont tous les deux reconnu comme quoi que l'apport d'une radio communautaire est très important dans sa communauté en situation minoritaire, qu'on répond amplement et pleinement -- puis c'est une façon créative de répondre à la Loi sur les langues officielles et qu'on est un atout vraiment incontournable.

10655   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER: Parce que l'article 41 de la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que le CRTC -- et je le cite presque « veille à ce que des mesures positives soient prises pour favoriser l'épanouissement des minorités francophones et anglophones en milieu minoritaire. » Est-ce qu'on n'a pas déjà répondu à ça en vous octroyant le 105,1?

10656   MME MORI: Bien, je pense que vous avez eu une réponse très positive, en nous octroyant une licence. Toutefois, la qualité de la fréquence 88,1 fait en sorte que ce n'est pas vrai que les francophones sont desservis avec notre fréquence--

10657   M. BOIS: 105,1.

10658   MME MORI: Qu'est que j'ai dit? Ah! Je fais déjà des lapsus sur notre... sur la fréquence. Je suis vraiment désolée.

10659   Donc... Excusez-moi.

10660   Je disais donc... J'ai oublié, j'ai perdu le fil.

10661   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER: Je vous posais la question sur l'appui de monsieur Fraser et sur la Loi des langues officielles à l'effet que le fait qu'on vous ait déjà donné une fréquence, est-ce que ce n'était pas suffisant pour répondre à la loi?

10662   MME MORI: Je vous remercie, madame, d'avoir re-précisé, Madame la Conseillère.

10663   Donc non, ce n'est pas suffisant, dans la mesure où les francophones/francophiles de Toronto ne captent pas notre signal. On ne couvre que l'endroit où notre antenne est installée. Donc, ça ne veut pas dire répondre à un service.

10664   La loi dit que nous avons droit à un service de qualité et d'égalité au niveau du français et de l'anglais, puis actuellement, la fréquence que nous avons -- on est heureux de l'avoir, ça nous a permis de vous prouver qu'on était capables d'exploiter ce type d'entreprise-là, l'économie sociale, d'avoir un impact sur les artistes émergents, sur notre communauté et sur la programmation locale, mais le 105,1 n'est pas une réponse adéquate à la Loi sur les langues officielles.

10665   Donc, vous êtes sur la bonne voie, je sais que vous êtes très conscients de cette réalité-là. Puis aussi, on l'a vu avec toute l'analyse que vous avez faite sur les radios communautaires qui s'est faite en 2009, les visites qu'on a reçues (on a reçu des commissaires à la radio). On a participé vraiment intensivement à cette démarche-là.

10666   Donc, ça prouve que vous êtes ouverts, que vous avez l'intention. C'est simplement que la fréquence qui était disponible à l'époque, bien, vous avez fait le mieux que vous avez pu. Mais actuellement, il y a une nouvelle solution. Permettez-nous s'il vous plaît d'avoir une fréquence qui nous permette de survivre et vraiment de jouer notre mission, celle que vous nous avez octroyée.

10667   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER: Qu'est-ce qui se passerait pour la francophonie à Toronto et en Ontario francophone si on refusait de vous donner le 88,1?

10668   MME MORI: Bien, plusieurs répercussions. On l'a dit et on le répète: ça va être difficile de garder la radio ouverte étant donné le niveau de vie de Toronto. Donc, il faut qu'on soit en mesure de pouvoir financièrement être en mesure d'assurer notre survie. D'un autre côté, les répercussions, si on regarde au niveau des artistes émergents, vont être vraiment très importantes, c'est-à-dire que ces artistes-là n'ont pas de place ailleurs, à Toronto.

10669   Au niveau de la communauté francophone de l'Ontario -- parce que là, vous me parlez au niveau provincial, c'est ça?

10670   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER: Torontois. Et Torontois.

10671   MME MORI: Et Torontois. Et c'est important, ils perdent leur voix. Ils perdent surtout un outil d'économie... C'est un outil de développement économique et social. C'est-à-dire que lorsque vous regardez les projections que nous faisons, chaque dollar qui est investi dans la radio, qui entre et qui sort de la radio va bénéficier à notre communauté, à Toronto, parce que, que ça soit juste si on regarde les employés, c'est des franco... des Franco-torontois qu'on va employer.

10672   C'est également... On va favoriser, lorsque nous avons de l'image graphique, de l'impression... Donc, nos fournisseurs, ça va être des gens qui sont francophones ou, à la rigueur, francophiles lorsque ce n'est pas possible. Puis aussi, on est une réponse au besoin des différentes organisations. Il y a beaucoup d'institutions francophones qui offrent des services puis qui ont besoin de pouvoir rejoindre leur clientèle pour pouvoir les desservir.

10673   Donc, la radio est vraiment le média le plus adéquat, parce que nous sommes au quotidien, on couvre la communauté l'information et l'actualité qui est propre à notre communauté, communautaire, puis c'est la façon la plus facile d'inciter les gens à consommer en français et aussi à utiliser tous les services qui sont disponibles pour que notre communauté puisse s'épanouir. Et il en va de même avec les artistes.

10674   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous savez, on a beaucoup de demandes.

10675   MME MORI: Oui.

10676   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Les communautés ethniques sont là à la porte. Les aînés, les jeunes avec de la musique émergente, la radio parlée FM anglaise, des nouveaux formats musicaux, la SRC française aussi.

10677   Alors, dans un contexte où il y a un demi-million de Francophones à Toronto, dans le Grand Toronto, pourquoi est-ce qu'on devrait vous donner à vous une licence, une nouvelle fréquence et la prioriser par rapport à toutes les autres demandes que nous avons reçues?

10678   MME MORI: O.K.

10679   Il y a plusieurs niveaux. Si on parle au niveau de la programmation qu'on serait en mesure de mettre en place fait en sorte qu'on apporte vraiment, en termes de diversité, quelque chose que personne aujourd'hui ou des requérants va pouvoir apporter.

10680   Si nous avions la fréquence88,1, nous serions en mesure de mettre en place une salle de presse et d'offrir aussi une meilleure couverture de l'actualité municipale.

10681   Nous serions aussi en mesure d'aider à l'instauration d'une radio étudiante de Campus, en travaillant avec le collège Glendon... pardon, le collège Boréal. Et aussi, on veut introduire le collège Glendon qui est la faculté francophone.

10682   Donc, on est conscient que c'est des communautés, donc, des étudiants qui auront jamais accès à une fréquence.

10683   Donc, c'est vraiment une porte qu'on ouvre pour pouvoir atteindre ces personnes-là.

10684   Aussi, on veut devenir un lieu de débat social, vraiment un lieu d'interaction citoyenne, faire en sorte d'avoir des lignes ouvertes et de faire participer notre communauté.

10685   On voudrait... Oui? Je réponds à votre question?

10686   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Oui, la plupart, vous les avez déjà mis dans le document.

10687   Mais ma question va être plus générale que ça. Est-ce qu'on assiste pas à une forme d'assimilation graduelle ici à Toronto, au niveau des Francophones et une diminution très progressive lente mais assurée de la francophonie à Toronto?

10688   MME MORI: Au contraire. La francophonie, elle aura jamais été aussi rayonnante que maintenant.

10689   Notre radio permettrait de mettre en place des projets comme Antenne-jeunesse. Puis nous l'avons fait, puis ça a été un franc succès. On l'a réalisé pendant deux ans. Puis la raison pour laquelle on a pas pu continuer, c'est parce qu'on a 1 ou 1.5 employé.

10690   Donc, Antenne-jeunesse, c'est qu'on va dans les écoles. On rencontre les jeunes. On leur donne une formation comment prendre la parole en ondes. Puis ensuite, ils réalisent en direct leurs émissions.

10691   Ce que ça a comme impact, c'est que le jeune se sent interpelé. Il est appelé à vivre sa culture francophone. Il est appelé à la connaître.

10692   Souvent, le genre de commentaires qu'on a: « Ah tiens! Ça, cette chanson-là, ça ressemble à quelque chose en anglais que j'aime bien. »

10693   Donc, on est vraiment en train de construire quelque chose et c'est l'outil qu'on utilise pour pouvoir le faire.

10694   Donc, Antenne-jeunesse, c'en est un. On a eu pendant deux ans un programme qui s'appelait « Les gens en or ». Et c'était des aînés justement qui venaient du centre d'accueil Héritage, qui est un centre de - excusez-moi le terme m'échappe! Mais, où est-ce que les aînés sont présents.

10695   Puis, ils ont réalisé vraiment pendant deux ans une série d'émissions hebdomadaires sur nos ondes.

10696   Donc, encore là, c'est pas juste la personne qui interagit à la radio, puis qui a son expérience. C'est toute sa famille qui est à l'écoute. C'est des enseignants.

10697   Donc, c'est vraiment créer une personne à la fois une communauté. Et c'est à ça que ça sert.

10698   Aussi, il y a d'autres indicateurs qui disent, qui prouvent que la francophonie est rayonnante à Toronto depuis que... comme elle l'a jamais été.

10699   On a juste à voir, par exemple, l'augmentation des écoles d'immersion, des écoles anglophones mal exploitées à Toronto, puis qui ont été données pour qu'elles développement des écoles francophones.

10700   On a juste à voir l'augmentation du nombre de personnes qui prennent des cours d'anglais et qui veulent comme s'approcher de la culture francophone.

10701   Aussi, c'est pas vrai par exemple, que les Francophones se marient entre eux. C'est-à-dire, ça crée beaucoup de couples exogames, puis les enfants, puis c'est prouvé, les enfants de ces couples-là vont souvent dans des garderies francophones. Donc, c'est au contraire. Il y a vraiment un courant très positif face au français.

10702   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Il me reste deux questions, Monsieur le Président.

10703   La première, en supposant qu'on vous accorderait la nouvelle fréquence.

10704   MME MORI: Oui.

10705   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Ça prendrait combien de temps pour vous, pour être en onde sur cette nouvelle fréquence?

10706   MME MORI: Très rapidement.

10707   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Ça veut dire quoi?

10708   MME MORI: Ça veut dire, je pense que les travaux... les travaux, l'installation, on parle du « First Canadian Place » où est-ce qu'on va installer notre tour. Donc, l'espace nous est réservé. Nous avons les fonds.

10709   Donc moi, je pense qu'avec des ingénieurs qui sont... les travaux d'ingénierie sont faits. On a déjà notre firme de techniciens.

10710   Donc, j'ai l'impression qu'en un mois, un mois et demi, on est en onde.

10711   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Et ma dernière question, aujourd'hui, dans votre document à la page11, vous parlez d'un engagement. « Nous nous engageons à réinvestir 100 pour cent des revenus supplémentaires de la fréquence 88,1 FM dans notre communauté. »

10712   Nulle part ailleurs dans les documents je n'ai vu une référence à un tel engagement. Est-ce que c'était mentionné dans les documents pour lesquels vous avez... que vous avez présentés au CRTC?

10713   MME MORI: Bien, en fait, juste en retournant à notre mission qui... notre mission, la mission de notre coopérative fait en sorte que ça peut pas être autrement.

10714   Donc, notre mission c'est d'offrir une voie à la francophonie torontoise. Et également d'agir et d'être en support à l'épanouissement de la culture, mais de promouvoir le développement socioéconomique de notre communauté.

10715   Donc, effectivement, notre mission, notre organisation, nécessairement ces surplus-là sont réinvestis dans la communauté. Ils peuvent pas aller ailleurs. On est une coopérative à but non lucratif, mais sans part sociale.


10717   MME MORI: Donc, nécessairement oui.

10718   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Oui. Et c'était pas ça ma question. Mais question était de savoir, est-ce que déjà dans les documents que vous avez donnés au CRTC on faisait référence à un tel engagement dans les documents que vous nous avez déjà remis, parce qu'on ne peut pas accepter sur place des améliorations à votre présentation.

10719   Alors, je me demandais si vous en avez parlé dans vos documents ou c'est quelque chose de nouveau que vous venez d'ajouter.

10720   MME MORI: Bien, on parle dans les documents, dans le mémoire complémentaire, on parle de notre appui, et qu'on va continuer à développer, à appuyer le développement des talents canadiens. C'est quelque chose qu'on fait encore et qu'on va continuer encore à faire.

10721   Donc, effectivement, on...

10722   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous parlez de l'ajout de représentants de vente, d'animateurs, de journalistes. Vous parlez d'agents communautaires. Vous parlez d'un impact sur la programmation et l'ensemble de ça revenait à dire que c'était 100 pour cent de vos revenus que vous injecteriez, de vos nouveaux revenus?

10723   MME MORI: Bien oui, parce que c'est ce qu'on est. On peut pas faire autrement.

10724   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait. O.K.

10725   MME MORI: À moins que quelqu'un aurait autre chose à ajouter?

10726   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Non. C'est parce que souvent, on impose des conditions de licence reliées aux engagements qui nous sont faits.

10727   MME MORI: Hm-hmm.

10728   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Et dans ce cas-là, on a pas vu nulle part que vous aviez pris un engagement aussi poussé que 100 pour cent. C'est peut-être implicite pour vous, mais ce n'est pas une donnée factuelle qui a été déposée devant nous.

10729   Alors, dans ce sens-là, on ne peut pas ajouter à votre demande de nouveaux arguments pour tenter de nous convaincre de le faire.

10730   MME MORI: O.K.

10731   J'aimerais juste préciser une dernière chose. Puis je reviens encore, puis probablement parce que je suis pas suffisamment claire. Mais notre coopérative, c'est ce qu'elle est. C'est ça. C'est de réinvestir, c'est d'assurer le développement et d'être ne support à sa communauté.

10732   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Alors, c'est rien de nouveau. C'est quelque chose que vous faites déjà.

10733   MME MORI: C'est quelque chose qui se fait déjà. C'est quelque chose qui est intrinsèque à ce que nous sommes.

10734   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait.

10735   Moi, j'ai terminé, Monsieur le Président. Je vous laisse.

10736   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci.

10737   Vice-président Pentefountas.


10739   D'abord, j'ai jamais vu un requérant qui serait prêt à lancer dans un mois. C'est fort impressionnant, premièrement.

10740   Deuxièmement, en parlant des écoles, moi, tous ceux et celles, des anciens amis de Montréal qui sont à Toronto, Anglo et Franco, il semble que tous leurs enfants, ils vont à des écoles de langue française.

10741   Alors, j'aimerais ça savoir, je sais pas si vous avez des données à savoir le nombre de places francophones dans le Grand Toronto, les écoles primaires ou secondaires de langue française.

10742   MME MORI: On a fait rapidement... je pourrai pas être vraiment très précise dans les chiffres. Mais ce qu'on m'a soumis comme chiffres, c'est qu'il y avait au moins une vingtaine d'écoles francophones à Toronto. À cela s'ajoute un grand nombre d'écoles d'immersion.

10743   Donc, puis qui ont également... il y a un mois on a reçu un communiqué comme quoi que les écoles mal exploitées anglophones seraient remises et exploiteraient justement le marché francophone.

10744   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : La demande est vraiment là.

10745   MME MORI: La demande est vraiment là. Puis en plus, les jeunes et les enseignants, comment ils trouvent que notre projet, le projet Antenne-jeunesse est absolument incroyable, parce que ça leur permet de lire en français, d'écrire en français, de s'exprimer en français.

10746   Donc, c'est vraiment un outil absolument incontestable où toute leur matière va être utilisée pour être... pour justement former le jeune et lui donner des...

10747   C'est quelque chose de faire une émission en direct pour un jeune. Puis on l'a fait avec des jeunes du secondaire. Mais on l'a fait également avec des jeunes d'école d'immersion de 6e année.

10748   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et c'est plus agréable de savoir qu'on parle pas dans le vide, et que le signal est assez fort...

10749   MME MORI: C'est ça. Ça fait...

10750   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... pour être entendu. Je comprends ça.

10751   MME MORI: Merci.

10752   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Écoute, on va rentrer dans les données économiques. Il y en a qui sont confidentielles. Alors, on va essayer d'éviter les parties confidentielles comme la peste. Et on va faire notre possible.

10753   Si je regarde le tableau2, page11. À moins que vous ayez d'autres...

10754   O.K. Bon. Il y a un tableau qui a été soumis où vous avez... je ne sais pas si vous avez...

10755   Est-ce qu'ils ont une copie de ça? Est-ce que je parle au personnel? Non.

10756   LA SECRÉTAIRE: Ils sont leurs données financières.

10757   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Bien, vous avez vos données financières, vous avez également vos projections. N'est-ce pas?

10758   MME MORI: Oui. Oui, oui.


10760   MME MORI: Donc, on parle... On n'a pas le même...

10761   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Dans vos projections qui sont publiques, la première année...

10762   MME MORI: Oui.

10763   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... si la demande n'est pas approuvée...

10764   MME MORI: Oui.

10765   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... je vois les revenus qui sont de l'ordre de 281 000$.

10766   MME MORI: Hm-hmm.


10768   On va pas entrer dans les détails, mais en baisse de ce qui a été enregistré en 2011.

10769   Et je vois une chute considérable du financement gouvernemental.

10770   MME MORI: Hm-hmm.

10771   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Ce financement gouvernemental est issu de Patrimoine et Langues officielles ou d'autres sources?

10772   MME MORI: Au niveau de la publicité nationale, vous parlez?

10773   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Je parle strictement financement gouvernemental.

10774   MME MORI: Ah pardon! Financement gouvernemental.


10776   MME MORI: Donc, oui, il est en chute...


10778   MME MORI:... dans la mesure où, comme je le disais tout à l'heure, jusqu'à maintenant, on a été capable de toujours dire qu'on estimait rejoindre par exemple, 60 70000 personnes.


10780   MME MORI: O.K.

10781   Puis, actuellement, c'est clair pour tout le monde que c'est pas la réalité.

10782   Donc, comment est-ce qu'on va justifier à nos bailleurs de fonds d'investir - qu'on va faire un projet ponctuel pour rejoindre notre public cible si la radio n'est pas audible?

10783   Donc, ce qu'on vient de perdre avec - puis que c'était l'atout qu'on avait par rapport à eux, c'était notre capacité à travailler sur différentes plateformes. Mais d'inclure également un média qui était parlé quotidien et d'implication citoyenne.

10784   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et tout ça parce qu'il y a dégradation de votre signal?

10785   MME MORI: Bien, il y a pas... oui, la dégradation, elle a toujours été là. Mais là, c'est clair, simple et pour tout le monde qu'on rejoint nullement le public qu'on est sensé, que le territoire nous promettait de rejoindre.

10786   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et ce financement est sujet au nombre de personnes?

10787   MME MORI: Bien, pas juste au nombre de personnes. C'est sujet aux idées qu'on développe.

10788   Donc, si on parle de faire une campagne de sensibilisation, puis qu'on dit qu'on va être en mesure de rejoindre un grand nombre de personnes, puis comme je t'ai dit tout à l'heure, c'est important pour nous, puis c'est pour ça qu'on est allé chercher différentes plateformes pour nous affilier.

10789   Mais d'un autre côté...


10791   MME MORI: Oui! Il faut.

10792   L'idée, c'est qu'on a vraiment débordé d'imagination, puis on est capable d'aller chercher vraiment... le prochain projet qu'on aimerait faire, par exemple, c'est de développer des bulletins de nouvelles, des bulletins de transport alternatifs.

10793   Donc, on a vraiment des idées qui sont différentes, puis qui comblent, du moins, notre réalité.

10794   Et je crois que c'est ce qui attirerait beaucoup les bailleurs de fonds qui veulent desservir les Francophones.

10795   Donc, la radio est un média connu et reconnu pour pouvoir desservir sa communauté.

10796   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et le chiffre que vous avez sur le financement gouvernemental, si la demande est approuvée, vous avez utilisé votre expérience de par le passé pour arriver à ce chiffre.

10797   MME MORI: Absolument. Puis je veux dire, en termes de... autant en termes de vente locale, puis en termes de demande de subvention et de création de projets, c'est vraiment des forces que nous avons au sein de notre équipe. Et c'est très, très, très réaliste.

10798   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Parce que la différence est frappante.

10799   MME MORI: Oui. Mais c'est relatif au nombre de personnes et à la...

10800   C'est pas juste le nombre de personnes, c'est également la notoriété qui a joué beaucoup.

10801   Donc, les gens croient beaucoup en ce que nous faisons. On est un groupe dynamique. On représente notre communauté. On est dynamique, les gens nous font confiance et puis on a une notoriété, puis on fait bien nos projets.

10802   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et avec la fréquence88,1...

10803   MME MORI: Oui.

10804   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... vous allez pouvoir servir tous les 500000 Francophones dans la grande région torontoise.

10805   MME MORI: Du moins, on sait qu'il va y avoir au moins, c'est un peu moins que 500000, c'était 360000 personnes qui peuvent capter CHOQ-FM. Donc, on va construire notre auditoire.

10806   Donc, on est pas en train de dire qu'on va rejoindre du jour au lendemain le 359000. Ce qu'on est en train de dire, c'est que la première chose pour qu'on puisse avoir une part de marché, c'est que les gens aient la capacité de nous écouter.

10807   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et présentement, vous êtes... qu'est-ce que vous avez comme chiffre, le nombre de personnes que vous seriez capable d'atteindre?

10808   MME MORI: On aurait un pourcentage. Parce que comme on l'a dit dans la présentation, on a pris nos... on a demandé à des auditeurs de remplir un sondage. Et c'est 50 pour cent des gens qui disent qu'ils ne captent pas CHOQ-FM.

10809   Donc, on a pris leurs codes postaux, puis on a développé la carte que vous avez eue, donc une carte colorée.

10810   Et ce que ça nous donne, c'est qu'on rejoint 20 pour cent de notre pourcentage... de notre territoire.

10811   Mais 20 pour cent dans cette zone-là, ça veut pas dire que la population francophone y est. Donc, c'est très difficile pour nous de savoir quelle est notre part de marché.

10812   Toutefois - mais c'est une information qui est nouvelle, que j'ai su dernièrement. Je sais pas si on peut l'apporter. Mais on rejoindrait 15 pour cent. Donc, ça a été fait par la firme Léger Marketing.

10813   Donc, on pourrait rejoindre 15 pour cent de notre auditoire.

10814   C'est quand même déjà pas mal. Mais on peut pas le chiffrer c'est quoi ces gens-là, parce qu'on sait pas qui capte notre signal.

10815   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et sans rentrer dans les chiffres, vous étiez capable de rejoindre combien de personnes en 2008?

10816   MME MORI: On le sait pas. On a toujours estimé à 65000 personnes.

10817   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Est-ce que le financement gouvernemental est considérable en 2008 et il y a une chute dramatique entre 2008 et 2012, disons.

10818   MME MORI: Oui. Mais en 2000... comme je disais, puis c'est souvent le lot, les radios communautaires ont pas de BBM, ont pas de PPM, on n'est pas là-dedans. Donc...

10819   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Non, je comprends ça.

10820   Mais vous avez pas de données...

10821   MME MORI: On estime...

10822   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... qui peuvent nous laisser croire qu'entre 2008 et 2012, vous avez perdu un pourcentage de Francophones que vous serez en mesure d'atteindre, de rejoindre.

10823   MME MORI: Pourriez-vous répéter votre question, s'il vous plaît?

10824   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Est-ce que vous avez des chiffres...

10825   MME MORI: Oui.

10826   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS :... qui peuvent nous démontrer qu'entre 2008 et 2012, vous avez perdu la capacité de rejoindre un certain nombre de votre clientèle cible?

10827   MME MORI: Bien écoutez. Ce que je peux dire, c'est que l'environnement, plusieurs l'ont présenté, les édifices et toute l'arrivée des édifices crée un problème considérable. Donc, on peut estimer qu'on a perdu de l'auditoire.

10828   Mais comme je le disais, comme font la majorité des radios, également les journaux, c'est une estimation d'une population.

10829   Puis, la différence aujourd'hui devant vous, c'est qu'on affirme comme quoi qu'on couvre que 20 pour cent du territoire protégé qu'on était sensé couvrir.

10830   Donc, c'est clair pour tout le monde que notre radio est pas en mesure de rejoindre sa clientèle. Donc, ça va avoir des répercussions, ça a des répercussions sur nos ventes locales, puis ça va avoir des répercussions sur nos projets de financement.


10832   MME MORI: Merci.

10833   LE PRÉSIDENT: D'autres questions? Non?

10834   Merci beaucoup pour ton application.

10835   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, we'll break for lunch.

10836   THE SECRETARY: Very well. It is 12:30 right now -- 1:45 -- 1:35, Mr. Chairman.

--- Pause

10837   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. I meant 1:45.

--- Upon recessing at 1230

--- Upon resuming at 1351

10838   LE PRÉSIDENT : Commençons, Madame la Secrétaire.

10839   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

10840   Nous débuterons cet après-midi avec l'article 25 à l'ordre du jour. Il s'agit d'une demande présentée par la Société Radio-Canada, la SRC, en vue de modifier la licence de radiodiffusion de l'entreprise de programmation de radio AM de langue française CJBC Toronto en ajoutant un émetteur imbriqué FM à Toronto pour diffuser les émissions de CJBC.

10841   Alors, nous avons à la table Mme Patricia Pleszczynska. S'il vous plaît, présentez-nous vos collègues aux fins du dossier. Vous disposez ensuite de 20 minutes pour votre présentation.


10842   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Merci, Madame.

10843   Monsieur le Président, Monsieur le Vice-Président, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers et employés du Conseil, bon après-midi. Je suis Patricia Pleszczynska, directrice générale, Services régionaux des services français de Radio-Canada.

10844   Je suis accompagnée :

10845   - à ma gauche, de Benoît Quenneville, directeur des services français de la région de l'Ontario;

10846   - à ma droite, Martin Marcotte, directeur des Services de transmission; et

10847   - Anne-Marie Migneault, directrice des Affaires réglementaires.

10848   Notre demande est motivée par la détermination de Radio-Canada de bien servir les populations francophones qui vivent en milieu linguistique minoritaire.

10849   Quand la Première Chaîne a commencé à être diffusée à Toronto il y a près de 50 ans, son signal AM permettait une excellente réception partout au centre-ville et bien au-delà. Cette fréquence lui permettait donc de bien remplir le mandat de Radio-Canada de servir les francophones en milieu linguistique minoritaire. Aujourd'hui, personne ne peut capter adéquatement ce signal au coeur de Toronto, la plus grande ville au Canada.

10850   Nous aborderons aujourd'hui les trois principales raisons pour lesquelles le Conseil devrait accorder la fréquence 88,1 FM à la Première Chaîne de Radio-Canada, CJBC, pour ajouter un émetteur FM imbriqué dans son contour AM.

10851   La première raison est que CJBC est un service unique et essentiel pour les francophones de Toronto.

10852   La seconde est que son signal AM actuel éprouve de graves problèmes de réception au centre-ville de Toronto, où il est absolument nécessaire d'avoir une fréquence FM pour avoir une réception de qualité acceptable.

10853   Finalement, l'octroi de cette fréquence FM à la Première Chaîne permettrait au Conseil d'atteindre de nombreux objectifs législatifs.

10854   Commençons donc avec la première raison, celle d'assurer un service unique et essentiel.

10855   CBC/Radio-Canada est le diffuseur public national dont un des mandats est de fournir des services de radio de langue française aux communautés en situation linguistique minoritaire qui reflètent leurs réalités régionales et nationales. Ces communautés sont souvent désignées par l'acronyme « CLOSM » dans des documents du Conseil, ou « OLMCs » en anglais.

10856   Le service de la Première Chaîne de Radio-Canada est composé de 19 stations réparties dans toutes les provinces du Canada, y compris 11 stations servant des francophones des CLOSM. Il maintient un lien essentiel entre les francophones et francophiles du pays et favorise aussi le reflet des réalités francophones au Canada anglais.

10857   En plus d'une programmation nationale de haute qualité, les stations de la Première Chaîne sont fortement ancrées dans les régions. Par exemple, 100 pour cent de la programmation en heures de grande écoute, soit le matin et l'après-midi au retour à la maison, sont des productions locales. Cette forte présence locale nous permet également de donner dans nos émissions nationales une meilleure représentation de la vie démocratique, économique et culturelle dans ces communautés.

10858   Je passe maintenant la parole à Benoît Quenneville, directeur des services français de la région de l'Ontario, qui vous décrira les services spécifiques de la Première Chaîne à Toronto et son rôle crucial pour soutenir la langue, la culture et l'identité de la communauté francophone de Toronto.

10859   Benoît.

10860   M. QUENNEVILLE : Merci, Patricia.

10861   Le personnel de la Première Chaîne à Toronto produit 4 heures et 20 minutes par semaine de nouvelles locales qui s'intègrent à différents moments de la journée dans sa programmation. Il s'agit de la seule salle de nouvelles radio francophone à Toronto.

10862   Vous trouverez en annexe aux présentes la grille horaire de la programmation du service de la Première Chaîne à Toronto, énumérant les émissions locales et nationales.

10863   Le personnel de Radio-Canada à Toronto produit chaque semaine 27,5 heures de programmation radiophonique pour diffusion locale en heures de pointe, incluant « Y'a pas deux matins pareils » diffusée du lundi au vendredi de 5h30 à 9h. C'est la seule émission matinale quotidienne d'information diffusée en français à Toronto.

10864   Elle est essentiellement axée sur des informations urbaines telles que des bulletins de nouvelles, de circulation et des chroniques sur les événements culturels et sportifs de Toronto. Cette émission matinale traite aussi de dossiers d'actualités locales, régionales et provinciales, sous forme d'entrevues ou autres. Nous sommes la seule station de radio de langue française qui fait cela à Toronto.

10865   Une autre émission locale est « Champ libre », qui accompagne les Torontois au retour à la maison du lundi au vendredi avec des actualités, entrevues et informations de services. Les samedis matins, l'émission « Grands Lacs Café » reflète la culture franco-ontarienne.

10866   En ce qui concerne les pourcentages de contenu canadien et francophone des pièces musicales diffusées par la Première Chaîne à Toronto, ils ont toujours été très élevés. Par exemple, au cours de l'année 2010-2011, pour les pièces musicales populaires de catégorie 2 au cours des 12 derniers mois, 98 pour cent des pièces musicales vocales étaient de langue française et 70 pour cent des pièces musicales étaient canadiennes.

10867   CJBC Toronto existe depuis très longtemps. En 2014, elle fêtera son 50e anniversaire. CJBC est partenaire de tous les organismes et grands événements de la région, dont les écoles et conseils scolaires, le Centre francophone de Toronto, la Francofête, la Semaine de la francophonie, le Festival de jazz de Toronto, le Salon du livre de Toronto, le festival Luminato et de nombreux festivals multiculturels, dont Compazuk(ph) et le Festival Bana y'Afrique. Nous réunissons périodiquement le « Panel des communautés », un forum de consultation des communautés multiculturelles.

10868   CJBC joue, par ailleurs, un rôle important dans la promotion des artistes de la région et de la musique franco-ontarienne en général. Pour les francophones de Toronto, c'est aussi une importante source d'information sur les activités communautaires dont notre radio fait la promotion.

10869   Radio-Canada a reçu de nombreuses plaintes depuis plusieurs années concernant la piètre qualité du signal de CJBC AM au centre-ville. Je n'étais pas étonné de recevoir ces plaintes, car moi-même, j'habite au centre-ville et je suis incapable de le capter chez moi et je suis incapable de le capter également quand je me déplace en voiture.

10870   C'est un grave problème qui s'accentue au fil des années. Nous avons produit quelques exemples de plaintes avec notre demande, incluant un article de « L'Express », un des hebdomadaires des francophones du Grand Toronto.

10871   En attendant d'obtenir une fréquence FM, nous avons été forcés de cannibaliser les ondes de notre service de musique francophone en diffusant en simultané l'émission matinale de la Première Chaîne sur la fréquence FM d'Espace musique à Toronto. Cependant, tout le reste de la programmation de la Première Chaîne après 9 h est inaccessible au centre-ville. De plus, cette mesure a pour effet de priver les auditeurs d'Espace musique de 3 heures et demie de programmation par jour en semaine.

10872   Dans son rapport de 2009 au gouvernement sur les services aux CLOSM, le Conseil a énoncé qu'Espace musique contribue de façon importante aux services aux francophones en milieu linguistique minoritaire.

10873   Pour bien servir la population francophone, il faut que la totalité de la programmation de la Première Chaîne et d'Espace musique soit accessible. Pour ce faire, la Première Chaîne doit obtenir une fréquence FM de qualité à Toronto, tel que vous l'expliquera Martin Marcotte, notre directeur des Services de transmission.

10874   M. MARCOTTE : CJBC Toronto est présentement diffusée sur la fréquence 860 AM, qui atteint bon nombre d'auditeurs répartis sur un vaste territoire, mais ne peut être captée de façon satisfaisante au centre-ville. Ce problème est causé principalement par le grand nombre d'édifices en hauteur, dont les structures d'acier et de béton empêchent ou bloquent la propagation des ondes AM, et par le circuit de tramway qui génère un bruit électrique important.

10875   Nous avons effectué des tests qui confirment une réception inadéquate de cette station à plusieurs endroits du centre-ville, tel qu'expliqué dans le rapport d'ingénierie joint à la demande.

10876   Je souligne : Les problèmes de réception sur le 860 sont identiques à ceux du 740.

10877   Plus d'un demi-million de personnes qui comprennent le français habitent à l'intérieur du contour de service AM actuel de CJBC. La moitié d'entre eux, soit 286730 personnes qui comprennent le français, habitent dans le contour de service de l'émetteur FM imbriqué que nous proposons.

10878   Il est important de souligner que ces chiffres n'incluent que les résidents permanents. Si on ajoute les francophones qui travaillent et se déplacent au centre-ville de Toronto sans y résider, le nombre de francophones qui auraient accès à CJBC est encore plus élevé.

10879   L'ajout d'un émetteur FM imbriqué dans le contour AM pour pallier aux problèmes de réception dans les grandes villes est une solution qui a été fréquemment mise en oeuvre précédemment dans des marchés où les fréquences FM sont rares. C'est une solution qui répond aux exigences d'Industrie Canada en matière d'efficacité spectrale au niveau des fréquences FM et qui est efficace pour le système canadien de radiodiffusion.

10880   Je passe la parole à ma collègue Anne-Marie Migneault au sujet des aspects réglementaires.

10881   MME MIGNEAULT : Les explications de Martin démontrent que l'octroi d'une fréquence FM à la Première Chaîne permettrait au Conseil de remplir l'objectif cité à l'alinéa 3(1)m)(vii) de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion, qui précise que la programmation fournie par CBC/Radio-Canada devrait « être offerte partout au Canada de la manière la plus adéquate et efficace, au fur et à mesure de la disponibilité des moyens ».

10882   Dans un contexte où la fréquence AM que la Première Chaîne a obtenu il y a 50 ans ne permet plus de rejoindre une grande partie des francophones de la région, l'octroi de la fréquence 88,1 FM à la Première Chaîne permettrait aussi au Conseil de remplir divers objectifs de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion reliés aux services aux communautés en milieu linguistique minoritaire, notamment l'alinéa 3(1)m)(iv), applicable à Radio-Canada en particulier, et aussi l'objectif de l'alinéa 3(1)d)(iii) sur la dualité linguistique, qui est applicable au système canadien de radiodiffusion en général.

10883   Nous vous soulignons aussi l'alinéa 3(1)n), qui prévoit que dans les cas de conflits entre des objectifs et que l'intérêt public est assuré de façon égale, le conflit doit être résolu en faveur des objectifs de la Loi relatifs au mandat de la Société Radio-Canada.

10884   L'octroi du 88,1 FM à la Première Chaîne permettrait, de plus, au Conseil de remplir ses engagements sous la Loi sur les langues officielles. En vertu de la partie VII de cette loi, les institutions fédérales, incluant le CRTC, sont engagées « à favoriser l'épanouissement des minorités francophones et anglophones du Canada et à appuyer leur développement, ainsi qu'à promouvoir la pleine reconnaissance et l'usage du français et de l'anglais dans la société canadienne ». L'article 41 prévoit que ces institutions fédérales doivent prendre des « mesures positives » pour atteindre ces objectifs. L'octroi d'une fréquence FM à la Première Chaîne serait clairement une mesure positive.

10885   Le Conseil a tenu en janvier 2009 une audience sur les services aux CLOSM. Dans son rapport adressé au gouverneur en conseil suite à cette audience, le Conseil a souligné l'importance de la contribution de la Société Radio-Canada pour assurer l'épanouissement de ces communautés. Le Conseil a aussi noté que la Société Radio-Canada fait face à plusieurs défis relatifs à l'extension du rayonnement de ses services de radio dans les CLOSM.

10886   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Aujourd'hui, une importante opportunité se présente donc au Conseil de corriger un grave problème d'accès aux services de radio de langue française de Radio-Canada qui prive tous les francophones se trouvant au centre-ville de Toronto de recevoir un service unique et essentiel que le diffuseur public produit pour eux.

10887   Nous vous remercions de votre attention et sommes prêts à répondre à vos questions.

10888   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci bien.

10889   Nous commencerons avec le vice-président Tom Pentefountas.

10890   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Bon après-midi. Pour une fois que la loi est du bon bord, comme on dit.

10891   Bon, commençons. Peut-être prenons une approche autre. On vient d'entendre les représentations de Zoomer. Il y avait question de ce type d'émetteur de Hornby et une espèce d'entente qui existe jusqu'en 2021, et il semble avoir une crainte à l'effet que cette propriété risque d'être vendue.

10892   Est-ce qu'il y a un plan qui est sur place, est-ce qu'il y a des discussions à cet effet-là? Êtes-vous en mesure de répondre à cette question-là?

10893   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Je vais demander à mon collègue Martin de reprendre.

10894   M. MARCOTTE : Non, en ce moment nous n'avons aucun plan de vendre le site de Hornby, qui est le site principal autant pour 740 que le 860. C'est l'émetteur principal de CJBC à Toronto en ce moment, qui couvre un demi-million de francophiles dans le marché de Toronto, et tel que l'a expliqué le monsieur de MZ Media, déplacer un site d'émetteur AM comme celui que l'on parle est impossible en ce moment à Toronto.

10895   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Advenant que le Conseil vous accorde une licence de diffuser sur 88,1 FM, est-ce votre intention de continuer d'utiliser le 860 également?

10896   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait!

10897   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Vous n'avez jamais songé à libérer cette fréquence-là pour une utilisation autre?

10898   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Le rayonnement de la Première Chaîne s'étend au-delà de la ville même de Toronto, des contours du centre-ville de Toronto, et l'utilisation maximale pour nous de cette fréquence-là nous permet d'atteindre les francophones au-delà du périmètre du centre-ville de Toronto.

10899   Martin.

10900   M. MARCOTTE : Oui. J'ajouterais que le 860 est un poste de 50 kilowatts AM qui est identique au 740, et comme encore je reviens à la présentation de ZoomerMedia où est-ce qu'ils parlaient que le signal se rend dans 28 états aux États-Unis, bien, de la même façon, pour nous, c'est un poste important du fait que ça couvre une bonne partie du sud de l'Ontario pour la Première Chaîne.

10901   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Le 850 vous voulez dire?

10902   M. MARCOTTE : Le 860.

10903   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Le 860, pardon.

10904   Et maintenant que vous avez ouvert la porte, il y avait discussion puis il y avait même une vidéo à l'effet que dans certains coins de rue -- puis ça peut être différent pour le 860 que pour le 740 -- mais est-ce qu'on peut dire, d'après votre opinion, que le 860 est un meilleur signal que le 740?

10905   M. MARCOTTE : Dans ma perspective, les signaux sont identiques, et je vais vous l'expliquer.

10906   Le 740 et le 860 diffusent du même emplacement, le site d'émetteur de Hornby. On parle de deux services 50 kilowatts. Non seulement ça, j'ai fait l'installation. Les émetteurs sont identiques, la même marque, le même modèle, la même puissance. Les deux émetteurs sont ensuite combinés dans une antenne commune de diffusion.


10908   M. MARCOTTE : Donc, la seule différence entre le 740 et le 860 est la fréquence, donc la longueur d'ondes. Et donc, il est possible de trouver un coin où est-ce qu'un service est supérieur à l'autre, mais on se déplace de quelques pieds, quelques mètres, et c'est l'inverse.

10909   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : C'est ça. Ça dépend dans quel coin de rue on se trouve.

10910   M. MARCOTTE : Exact. Ça dépend du coin précis où est-ce qu'on prend...

10911   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Mais les signaux sont exactement pareils, ça diffuse du même endroit?

10912   M. MARCOTTE : Exact.

10913   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Alors, c'est ça. Je n'ai pas compris ça parce que vous êtes des colocataires, de toute façon, sur le site de Hornby.

10914   M. MARCOTTE : Exact.

10915   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : O.K. Ça donne une réponse.

10916   Êtes-vous en mesure d'élaborer sur les raisons pour lesquelles vous n'avez pas fait une demande de modification technique sur la fréquence actuelle? Étant donné les problèmes de réception, il n'y a pas une possibilité de demander d'augmenter la puissance, premièrement?

10917   Vous avez parlé quelque peu d'un autre emplacement. J'imagine que l'autre emplacement est absolument impossible.

10918   M. MARCOTTE : Oui. Quand on parle d'autre emplacement, Radio-Canada a regardé aussi à l'Ile de Toronto, mais ce n'est pas faisable. Ce n'est pas faisable. En ce qui a trait aux paramètres existants, on opère déjà au maximum des paramètres permis pour une station AM de 50 kilowatts. Il n'y a pas possibilité d'aller au-delà de 50 kilowatts.

10919   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Carrément impossible?

10920   M. MARCOTTE : Exact.

10921   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Vous avez parlé d'autres fréquences imbriquées et d'autres autorisations qui ont été données -- et vous allez excuser en quelque sorte mon ignorance -- mais est-ce qu'on utilise les fréquences imbriquées de la qualité de 88,1 ailleurs?

10922   Moi, ce que j'ai vu, c'est des fréquences secondaires ou pires qui sont utilisées, qui sont très peu utiles à d'autres fins, et qu'on rende cette fréquence imbriquée pour servir un AM -- l'habitude de parler traditionnelle qui est là depuis toujours là, patrimoniale -- est-ce qu'on a déjà utilisé une fréquence de la qualité de 88,1 pour créer cette situation d'une fréquence imbriquée?

10923   M. MARCOTTE : Bien, si je reviens aux raisons pour lesquelles on fait des FM imbriquées, la solution qu'on ressent, c'est de bien desservir les gens dans un milieu urbain qui ne reçoivent plus notre signal AM.

10924   Donc, c'est une solution qui est... Ce n'est pas nouveau, la solution qu'on propose ici. En tant que le 88,1, si je peux souligner un exemple qui est peut-être comparable, ça serait notre FM imbriquée à Vancouver, qui est la même fréquence d'ailleurs.

10925   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Qui est une fréquence aussi bonne...

10926   M. MARCOTTE : Oui.

10927   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : ...que le 88,1?

10928   M. MARCOTTE : Oui.

10929   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et vous n'avez pas trouvé d'autre fréquence sur la bande FM qui peut être utilisée précisément pour desservir la région métropolitaine ou le centre-ville de Toronto?

10930   M. MARCOTTE : Non, pas à date. Non, parce que ça fait depuis les années mi-90... parce que le problème de réception AM dans le centre-ville de Toronto n'est pas nouveau. Ça a été souligné ce matin qu'on a eu la fréquence 99,1 en '99...


10932   M. MARCOTTE: Pour CBC Radio One.

10933   ...Et on cherche depuis longtemps une solution comparable pour CJBC, mais on ne l'a pas trouvée à date.

10934   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Et d'après votre présentation, êtes-vous en train de nous dire qu'après 9 heures, la Première Chaîne est, à toute fin pratique, plus disponible aux Torontois du centre-ville?

10935   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Pour ceux qui syntonisent le AM au centre-ville, ils ne reçoivent pas le signal d'une façon qui est audible du matin jusqu'au soir, 24 heures. Ce que nous avons expliqué, c'est que pour les 3 1/2 heures de l'émission du matin, nous avons pris acte, d'une façon tout à fait extraordinaire, en cannibalisant jusqu'à un certain point notre antenne d'Espace musique pour diffuser l'émission du matin pendant cette période cruciale du matin, ce qui n'est pas une situation normale pour un diffuseur, d'avoir à cannibaliser une antenne pour en soutenir une autre.

10936   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Il y a sans doute des gens mal intentionnés qui vont dire que vous avez déjà une fréquence forte à Toronto et que la Première Chaîne, étant donné que c'est une chaîne qui offre du parlé et que c'est plus important que d'avoir de la musique, que ça serait peut-être une bonne idée d'utiliser cette première fréquence pour diffuser ce qui est plus important de diffuser, c'est-à-dire l'information, les nouvelles... Autrement dit, la grille horaire de la Première Chaîne... sur la deuxième chaîne.

10937   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Mon collègue pourra reprendre pour les paramètres spécifiques, mais comme nous avons expliqué, la Première Chaîne rend un service aux francophones au centre-ville de Toronto et bien au-delà. Elle couvre... Finalement, nous couvrons avec notre antenne AM les francophones dans le sud de l'Ontario, ce que la fréquence FM d'Espace musique ne se rend pas aussi loin.

10938   Martin, pourrais-tu répondre?

10939   M. MARCOTTE: Oui. Bien, je reviens à la question du 50 kW AM et que ça couvre un vaste territoire sur le sud ontarien, tandis qu'Espace musique est plus limité dans sa couverture. Donc, la zone de couverture des deux postes n'est pas la même.

10940   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : En termes d'efficacité d'utilisation, pour couvrir le même espace, il nous faudrait faire application pour d'autres postes FM pour couvrir... pour remplacer la chaîne AM.

10941   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: J'imagine que la question est à savoir: Avez-vous besoin des deux fréquences?

10942   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Aussi longtemps que--

10943   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Pour deux programmations différentes pour remplir votre mandat?

10944   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Aussi longtemps que Radio-Canada est mandaté pour deux chaînes. Radio-Canada et CBC, Espace musique et la Première Chaîne, nous avons nécessairement besoin de deux fréquences... pour des services différents et complémentaires que le Conseil lui-même a identifiés comme étant essentiels.

10945   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Je comprends l'importance de votre service. Il y a 21-22 autres demandeurs...requérants pour cette fréquence-là et nous avons entendu d'autres requérants ce matin (et je pense surtout aux représentations de la Radiocom). Et pourquoi est-il plus important pour Radio-Can d'avoir une deuxième fréquence et non pas donner une deuxième fréquence à une radio communautaire de langue française?

10946   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : La Première Chaîne est un service unique et essentiel pour les francophones de la région, qui n'est pas accessible, comme nous l'avons mentionné, au centre-ville. Nous sommes maintenant où de ne pas avoir la fréquence FM au centre-ville équivaut à réduire l'accès au service public. Et le service public appartient à tous les Canadiens. Ça équivaut à nier aux francophones de cette région l'accès à la Première Chaîne à Toronto même.

10947   La Première Chaîne de Radio-Canada est la seule station qui offre un service de nouvelles et d'émissions d'information professionnelles dans la ville de Toronto. C'est un service qui appartient au public, qui est disponible au public, mais qui n'est pas recevable par le public dans la grande région métropolitaine de Toronto, et spécifiquement au centre-ville.

10948   Alors, nous croyons que pour ces raisons, Radio-Canada devrait avoir l'attribution de cette fréquence-là.

10949   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Autrement dit, il est très important de donner, d'accorder cette fréquence à Radio-Can plutôt qu'à la radio communautaire?

10950   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait.


10952   Je ne veux pas rentrer nécessairement dans les cas de cotes d'écoute, mais si on prend pour acquis qu'il y a 5 millions de Torontois et que 10 pour cent de ces Torontois-là sont francophones ou francophiles, les cotes ne reflètent pas du tout (mais très loin) cette réalité démographique à Toronto. Il y a-tu une explication, il y a-tu une façon de comprendre ça?

10953   MME PLESZCZYNSKA: On pourra toujours vous revenir avec des détails, mais je pourrais vous dire que dans une grande région, justement, comme Toronto -- et je crois qu'une autre radio a fait le point que les francophones sont éparpillés, résident partout dans la région de Toronto -- l'échantillonnage pour les BBM, pour Radio-Canada devient donc très petit. Et Radio-Canada n'est pas mesuré par les BBM comme pour les chaînes anglophones.

10954   Alors, Radio-Canada, reçoit des chiffres d'auditoire de BBM, mais où l'échantillonnage des francophones est extrêmement petit, et donc très difficile pour nous de nous fier sur ces chiffres-là, qui peuvent varier d'un livre à l'autre et d'une saison à l'autre de façon assez radicale.

10955   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: On peut tourner autour du pot autant qu'on voudra. On arrive à la même chose: il y a pas beaucoup, beaucoup de questions à poser, là. Votre demande est assez simple.

10956   Peut-être nous donner un petit peu l'impact potentiel d'un refus de la part du Conseil de vous accorder cette fréquence FM impliqué sur la communauté francophone torontoise et sur la survie de la langue française dans la ville reine.

10957   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Je crois qu'il est certain que le rôle de Radio-Canada à Toronto, comme dans toutes les communautés de langues officielles où la communauté est minoritaire, joue un rôle extrêmement important. Pas seulement dans la diffusion... la collecte et la diffusion d'information, de nouvelles, mais dans la présentation de tous les enjeux de ces communautés et dans le soutien à l'activité culturelle, dans le support aux artistes émergents et qui deviennent après établis -- à cause de Radio-Canada, le rôle de Radio-Canada étant d'identifier ces musiciens et ces artistes-là et de les présenter à ses antennes et ensuite, que ces jeunes artistes-là, ces artistes émergents deviennent des artistes qui puissent en vivre et qui puissent se faire connaître à travers le pays.

10958   Alors, il est certain que, en autant qu'une grosse partie de la population francophone, qui réside ou qui passe du temps au coeur de Toronto est privée de Radio-Canada -- c'est un service essentiel qui lui, est retenu, qui ne lui est pas disponible. Et mon collègue Benoît pourra renchérir.

10959   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Pardon, rien ne vous empêche de remplir ce mandat-là, de faire la promotion de la langue française, de faire la promotion des artistes de langue française. Le 90,3 est déjà là.

10960   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Vous voulez dire pour Espace musique?


10962   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Alors Espace musique est une radio nationale et, jusqu'à un certain point, pour certaines plages horaires, nous avons aussi une programmation locale ou régionale sur Espace musique. Son rôle est d'être une chaîne musicale.

10963   La Première chaîne est une chaîne d'information, une chaîne parlée, une chaîne d'entrevue, de rencontre, de nouvelles, de débat et de rencontre avec des gens intéressants, mais qui ne sont pas dans un mode de performance comme ils pourraient l'être à Espace musique. Donc, le rôle de la Première chaîne ne peut pas être confondu avec celui d'Espace musique. On ne peut pas dire: « Vous avez une chaîne. Faites tout sur la même chaîne. » C'est pas le rôle de Radio-Canada, avec son mandat, de tout mélanger sur une seule chaîne alors que nous en avons deux qui desservent une population qui contribue au maintien de ce mandat-là.

10964   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS: Je comprends ça, mais en quoi le refus... la question a-t-elle l'impact d'un refus sur la communauté francophone torontoise et la survie de la langue française à Toronto?

10965   M. QUENNEVILLE: Je peux peut-être parler d'avantage de--

10966   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Vas-y.

10967   M. QUENNEVILLE: ...l'aspect programmation dans... la mission qu'on s'est donnée, puis la façon dont on voit notre mandat, c'est de vraiment être ici à Toronto un point de ralliement, un lieu de rendez-vous pour la francophonie. Nous sommes les seuls à faire de l'information, d'avoir une équipe journalistique qui fait la couverture de l'actualité régionale et qui est en lien avec nos salles de nouvelles ailleurs au pays, donc qui peut aussi donner une perspective nationale et même internationale à la nouvelle.

10968   Nous sommes les seuls à traiter des grands dossiers d'actualité, sous forme d'entrevue, sous forme de grand reportage, sous forme de grand débat, sous forme de table ronde.

10969   Les grands enjeux qui préoccupent et qui rassemblent l'ensemble des francophones -- dans certains cas, c'est l'ensemble de la population en général -- mais c'est l'angle francophone de l'histoire, ou l'histoire vue à travers la sensibilité francophone. Dans d'autres cas, ce sont des enjeux très spécifiques à la réalité d'être francophone dans un milieu minoritaire comme Toronto, un milieu urbain, entouré d'une actualité vivante, d'un bouillonnement culturel, économique et social important.

10970   Il y a des particularités intéressantes à la communauté francophone ici dont j'entendais parler beaucoup dans la présentation précédente et qui... et à laquelle nous sommes aussi très, très conscients... dont nous sommes très conscients: celui du multiculturalisme.

10971   Et c'est pour ça que nous aussi, on fait énormément de partenariat avec différents organismes, des communautés culturelles. On traite des dossiers d'actualité qui touchent les communautés multiculturelles de Toronto, dans le cadre de notre programmation. On a aussi, et de plus en plus, une variété d'accents à notre antenne, du personnel d'antenne qui provient aussi de ces communautés multiculturelles.

10972   Donc, il y a tout un bagage existant de programmation, de services à la communauté qui n'est que partiellement ou pas disponible dans certaines parties du territoire où on diffuse.

10973   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Et par ailleurs, comme Radio-Canada offre un mélange de programmation locale, régionale et nationale, il y a aussi cet aspect essentiel que pour une francophonie immigrante ou première génération, c'est un contact avec le Canada francophone que Radio-Canada offre par son antenne et ses émissions, pas seulement des émissions locales, mais des émissions régionales et nationales qui offrent tout un éventail de perspectives et de rencontres à travers le Canada pour ces populations-là francophones de Toronto ou francophones arrivantes de d'autres régions ou d'autres pays du monde.


10975   Ça complète pour moi, Monsieur le Président. Merci.

10976   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci.

10977   Madame Poirier?

10978   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Bonjour.

10979   J'avoue que j'ai essayé d'écouter presque toutes les chaînes de radio qui sont devant nous durant la semaine, dont la vôtre sur le AM. Et j'ai trouvé exécrable la qualité des ondes que j'ai entendues en me promenant en ville et autour de la ville.

10980   Et j'avoue que si je n'avais pas été au courant qu'il y avait une audience à ce sujet-ci, je vous aurais appelé pour me plaindre en pensant qu'il y avait un problème.

10981   J'aimerais que vous me décriviez la situation de CBC en anglais ici.

10982   Est-ce que CBC en anglais est bien sur les chaînes FM aux deux niveaux?

10983   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait. Martin pourra vous décrire la situation.

10984   M. MARCOTTE : Oui. Radio one au 99,1 et Radio 2 au 94,3.

10985   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, si je comprends bien, la clientèle anglophone a le droit aux deux programmations complètes en anglais sur des chaînes de qualité.

10986   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait.

10987   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait.

10988   J'aimerais revenir sur la cannibalisation, pour que ce soit clair pour tout le monde.

10989   La cannibalisation, ça veut dire que l'émission du matin qui normalement est présentée sur le AM doit être diffusée sur le FM en remplacement de la programmation normale pour que les gens puissent l'entendre ici.

10990   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait.

10991   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, pendant trois heures, les Francophones d'ici sont privés de la radio FM?

10992   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Ils sont privés de la programmation disponible sur Espace musique, que les autres... que tous les auditeurs devraient pouvoir entendre. Mais dans toute la région qui est couverte par le AM, ces auditeurs-là ne reçoivent que la chaîne, que l'émission du matin.

10993   Toute la région - pardon - couverte par Espace musique, ces gens-là, ces auditeurs-là ne reçoivent qu'une diffusion, ils n'ont qu'un choix. C'est la première chaîne. C'est la programmation de la première chaîne, l'émission du matin de 3h30.

10994   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Est-ce qu'il y a des gens qui se sont plaints chez vous de ne pouvoir entendre Espace musique le matin de 6h à 9h?

10995   M. QUENNEVILLE : Moi, j'entends beaucoup parler de cette question-là. J'ai des plaintes verbales qui me viennent fréquemment dans mes rencontres dans la communauté.

10996   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, deux populations, deux niveaux de service différents.

10997   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait. Et qui plus est, à partir de 9h, c'est toute la première chaîne qui devient inaccessible aux gens qui syntonisent la bande AM au centre-ville de Toronto.

10998   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Est-ce que vous pensez, pour poursuivre dans le sens des questions posées par monsieur Pentefountas, que les Franco-Torontois accepteraient d'être privés d'Espace musique pour qu'on la remplace par la chaîne de nouvelles?

10999   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Non. Nous croyons que les Francophones de la ville-mère ont les mêmes droits que les Anglophones qui sont desservis par CBC sur deux chaînes, sur deux antennes séparées avec deux programmations très distinctes et comme tous les autres Francophones qui ont droit à Radio-Canada, Espace musique et la première chaîne.

11000   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Vous savez que si vous n'obtenez pas cette fréquence-là, ça voudra dire que les Francophones resteront sur le AM ad vitam aeternam.

11001   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : C'est la raison pourquoi nous sommes ici.

11002   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Qu'est-ce qu'a dit le commissaire aux Langues officielles par rapport à votre demande?

11003   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Le commissaire a appuyé notre demande pour les mêmes raisons qu'il a apporté son apport aussi à la chaîne communautaire.

11004   Mais Anne-Marie pourra vous en donner plus de détails.

11005   MME MIGNEAULT: Justement, dans son intervention, le commissaire aux Langues officielles a souligné qu'un des impacts de la Loi sur les langues officielles, c'est que ça doit... certains éléments doivent être considérés dans votre équilibrage des objectifs de la loi sur la radiodiffusion qui dit:

« Une des choses qui doivent être examinées, c'est le Conseil doit être particulièrement attentif à toute situation qui désavantage une communauté de langues officielles par rapport à l'autre. »

11006   Alors, ça rejoint un peu vos commentaires précédemment.

11007   Ici, on a une situation où la population anglophone de Toronto a accès à un signal de qualité, à Radio one, sur le FM. Et la population francophone n'a pas accès à un signal de qualité à la première chaîne.


11009   J'aimerais, pendant que vous êtes en train de me répondre pour le commissaire aux Langues officielles, que vous me parliez un peu plus à la page8, du premier paragraphe de l'article 3.1 (n) qui prévoit que:

« Dans le cas de conflit entre des objectifs et que l'intérêt public est assuré de façon égale. Le conflit doit être résolu en faveur des objectifs de loi relatifs à la Société Radio-Canada. »

11010   En quoi cela s'appliquerait-il ici alors qu'on a des demandes des communautés ethniques, on a des demandes des aînés, on a des demandes de formats de musique anglais parlé, français. On a des demandes de toutes sortes.

11011   Alors, on quoi voyez-vous la pertinence de l'application de cet article de la loi par rapport à la présente audience?

11012   MME MIGNEAULT: Dans un cas où le Conseil ferait face à une situation où il y aurait des demandes qui rempliraient des objectifs différents de la loi, mais un peu de façon équivalente, puis que les deux rempliraient un certain intérêt public, la loi prévoit, afin de s'assurer que Radio-Canada qui est créé par cette loi-là puisse remplir son mandat. À ce moment-là, on doit prioriser les objectifs qui répondent au mandat de Radio-Canada.

11013   Parce que si on fait référence aux alinéas L et M, ce sont les deux alinéas qui décrivent ce que la Société Radio-Canada doit faire, quel est son mandat.

11014   Alors, le Conseil doit s'assurer que les services, que notre système, le système canadien de radiodiffusion a décidé, s'est donné un service public. Et le Conseil doit s'assurer qu'il soit accessible.

11015   Et si, dans une situation, il y a des objectifs remplis d'une façon où les deux objectifs sont nobles, les deux objectifs remplissent les intérêts publics, on doit à ce moment-là favoriser celui qui donne effet au mandat de Radio-Canada sous la loi.

11016   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, ce que vous dites, c'est que la loi, en supposant qu'on déterminerait ici qu'il y a un manque flagrant, on pourrait donner priorité à une autre station.

11017   Mais s'il n'y a pas de manque flagrant de service et que c'est à peu près égal pour l'ensemble des objectifs de la loi à remplir, on doit privilégier Radio-Canada.

11018   MME MIGNEAULT: Exactement. C'est dans un cas à intérêt public équivalent. Les objectifs qui permettent la réalisation des mandats de Radio-Canada doivent être favorisés.

11019   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Un Francophone qui vit à Toronto, qui veut avoir des nouvelles en français de sa ville, qu'est-ce qu'il peut faire d'autres que d'écouter votre radio AM?

11020   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : C'est Radio-Canada qui est la seule radio francophone qui offre de l'information sur une antenne d'information et de programmation parlée.

11021   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Donc, par exemple, à la limite, un service d'urgence. Il y a quelque chose qui se passe d'urgent.

11022   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : À la limite, tout à fait. Radio-Canada étant le diffuseur public, a le mandat de servir le public avec une programmation locale, régionale et nationale, ainsi que d'apporter une information sur tout ce qui se passe à travers le monde.

11023   Et ce sont des situations qui se sont produites à plusieurs moments dans la vie de Radio-Canada et dans la vie des citoyens du Canada qu'il y ait des événements d'urgence ou des situations d'urgence où les antennes de Radio-Canada ont servi pour transformer une programmation régulière en programmation d'urgence, une programmation spéciale en émission de nouvelles en direct dans toutes sortes de circonstances. Tout à fait.

11024   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Est-ce qu'on a un exemple précis à me donner de ce qui aurait pu se passer ici à Toronto, qui est un événement d'urgence qui a fait en sorte que les Francophones n'avaient que vous pour entendre en français ce qui devait être fait et ce qui devait être su?

11025   M. QUENNEVILLE : Je peux donner deux exemples relativement récents.

11026   Un c'est le G20, quand la violence a commencé vraiment à éclater dans les rues de Toronto; des voitures de police en feu; des manifestants qui tentaient de franchir des barrières policières et des arrestations massives.

11027   On a pris l'antenne. On est resté à l'antenne à la radio à différents moments en période continue. Puis ensuite, en période fréquente tout au long de la nuit et jusqu'à très, très tôt le matin, le lendemain pour parler des suites et des conséquences de tout ça.

11028   Ça c'est un exemple.

11029   Un autre exemple où on a été en services continus pendant près de 24 heures, ça a été lorsqu'il y a eu une panne de courant. Là on remonte, je pense, au début des années 2000. Une panne de courant importante qui avait plongé dans le noir...

11030   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : L'Ontario au complet.

11031   M. QUENNEVILLE : ...non seulement Toronto, mais l'Ontario puis une partie du Nord-est américain.

11032   On avait pris l'antenne en continu pendant près de 24 heures.

11033   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Et je vous dirais que c'est le propre de Radio-Canada de réagir de cette façon-là au service de la communauté, que ce soit lors du verglas à Montréal, Ottawa, ou les inondations à Winnipeg.

11034   C'est le propre de Radio-Canada d'avoir cette ampleur-là, cette envergure-là de couverture de journalisme et d'équipe qui peuvent aller sur le terrain et être au service de la population, que ce soit à Toronto, que ce soit dans toutes les autres régions du Canada.

11035   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : J'ai presque terminé, Monsieur le Président.

11036   Par rapport à la grosseur du marché francophone à Toronto, si on le compare à des marchés québécois, ou nouveau-brunswickois, comment se situerait le marché ici? Est-ce que c'est un gros marché pour vous? Est-ce que c'est un petit marché?

11037   Bien sûr, c'est beaucoup plus petit que Montréal. Mais, est-ce que, par rapport à Québec, par rapport à Gatineau, par rapport à Longueuil, quelle est la grosseur du marché francophone ici?

11038   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Par rapport à Québec, le marché torontois est plus petit. Mais il est plus grand que tous les marchés à l'ouest de Toronto.

11039   Il est plus grand que les marchés dans les provinces Atlantiques, il est plus grand que les marchés autres que Québec, Ottawa et Montréal.

11040   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Je terminerais en vous demandant, est-ce qu'il y a une synergie qui existe entre vos salles de nouvelles TV et radio?

11041   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Tout à fait. Benoît pourra vous en donner des détails.

11042   M. QUENNEVILLE : Ce sont des services qui sont maintenant complètement intégrés. Et j'inclurais aussi le web sous la supervision d'un même réalisateur-coordonnateur avec un affectataire unique pour les trois plateformes et nos journalistes qui peuvent parfois être spécialisés, radio, télé ou web, sont tous appelés à contribuer sur les autres plateformes.

11043   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Bien, j'ai terminé. Je vous remercie. Merci, Monsieur le Président.

11044   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci. Est-ce qu'il y avait d'autres questions?

11045   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Oui, juste brièvement sur les questions démographiques.

11046   On a souvent lancé le chiffre de 500000 Francophones en Ontario. Le nombre de Francophones identifiés ainsi à Toronto, est-ce que vous avez un chiffre de près...

11047   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Donc, c'est le chiffre avec lequel nous travaillons aussi.

11048   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et ce chiffre se base sur quoi?

11049   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Sur Statistiques Canada, sur les définitions que nous avons. Martin, tu as un tableau?

11050   M. MARCOTTE : Oui. Lorsqu'on parle du contour 5000 volts mètre AM, on compte 578000 Francophones. Donc, on a...

11051   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : C'est drôle, mais les derniers chiffres que j'ai vus, c'est pour tout l'Ontario. Les Francophones c'est en bas de 500000, d'après le census.

11052   M. MARCOTTE : La différence, c'est peut-être langue maternelle versus langue connue.

11053   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Est-ce que vous avez ces... est-ce que vous avez déposé ces chiffres-là avec votre soumission?

11054   M. MARCOTTE : Non.


11056   Est-ce qu'on peut les avoir? Comment ça on va être...

11057   M. MARCOTTE : On peut vous soumettre en période de...

11058   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Parce que le chiffre que j'ai pour Toronto, c'est 50000, un petit peu plus que 50000. Et pour tout l'Ontario, c'est 500000. Et ça, je ne me trompe pas, d'après le census.

11059   Je pense pas qu'on ait un chiffre2011, mais on a le chiffre2006. Et je pense pas que ça a changé beaucoup. On peut rajouter les francophiles, je comprends ça, les gens qui ont intérêt pour la langue française. Ça va.

11060   Mais les Francophones comme tels, j'ai l'impression que c'est plus proche de 50 ou 50000 à Toronto que 500000.

11061   M. MARCOTTE : Je vais passer la parole à Anne-Marie.

11062   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Et même les chiffres que j'ai vus récemment de TV5 et TVO, il me semble que TFO, il me semble que c'est les chiffres que j'avais, 500000 Francophones en Ontario.

11063   MME MIGNEAULT: Si je peux me permettre un commentaire sur les divers types de mesures qui existent sur les Francophones.


11065   MME MIGNEAULT: Historiquement, on regardait les langues maternelles francophones.


11067   MME MIGNEAULT: Et je crois que c'est autour de 2001 ou 2002 où le commissaire aux Langues officielles avait souligné dans divers mémoires que le fait de regarder la langue maternelle n'est plus la bonne mesure.

11068   On a... c'est plutôt les gens qui parlent le français. Il y a une mesure de « parle le français à la maison » il y a des mesures aussi de « parler en français, connaissant le français. »

11069   Et si on veut vraiment encourager le bilinguisme, encourager la connaissance du français, ce qu'on doit regarder, ce sont les gens qui comprennent la langue, est une mesure plus importante que celle de la langue maternelle.

11070   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Est-ce votre compréhension qu'il y a 500000 Torontois qui parlent le français?

11071   MME MIGNEAULT: Selon les données de Statistiques Canada, il y a 578000 personnes qui connaissent le français, qui habitent dans le contour AM de la première chaîne.

11072   Et dans le contour du FM88,5 qu'on vous demande aujourd'hui, il y en a 286730.

11073   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Ça mettrait les chiffres des gens bilingues en Ontario bien au-delà d'un million, j'imagine, en fin de compte. C'est pas le débat du jour. Mais c'est intéressant.

11074   Et ces chiffres-là, le 238000, ça fait pas partie de votre présentation?

11075   MME MIGNEAULT: Dans la... oui, dans notre mémoire. Ce sont les chiffres de langues connus. On a donné le 578000 pour le contour AM et le 286000 pour le contour FM.

11076   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : FM88.1. Excellent. O.K. Excellent. Merci beaucoup.

11077   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci. Ça complète nos questions.

11078   On reviendra dans 15 minutes.

11079   LA SECRÉTAIRE: Quinze minutes. Merci.

11080   MME PLESZCZYNSKA : Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 1441

--- Upon resuming at 1501

11081   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

11082   Madam Secretary, let's begin.

11083   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11084   We are now ready to hear item 26 on the Agenda, which is an application by Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc. to amend the broadcasting licence for the English-language FM radio programming undertaking CKFG-FM Toronto.

11085   I would ask that you please introduce your panel for the record to start with. You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.


11086   MR. GORDON: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and all the Commissioners, CRTC staff members and fellow applicants, ladies and gentlemen.

11087   We are here -- of course, we are the last one on the Agenda, so I feel like a baseball team, being the closer, and I want to hope and trust that you all have been enjoying the beautiful weather in Toronto. All right.

11088   Now, my name is Fitzroy Gordon. I am the Founder, President and CEO of Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc., CKFG G98.7 FM, The Way We Groove.

11089   Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to explain the merits of our application for a technical amendment to our Toronto licence by changing the authorized frequency of CKFG from 98.7 FM to 88.1.

11090   On behalf of the Black and Caribbean population of the Greater Toronto Area and all the Canadians who love the rich and diverse sound of our World Beat programming we now present a strong case as to why granting this technical amendment would be the best use of the 88.1 FM frequency.

11091   Let me now introduce to you members of my A team:

11092   - seated to my immediate right is Mr. Delford Blythe, IBN's Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer;

11093   - to his right is the Reverend Dr. Audley James, Senior Pastor, Revivaltime Tabernacle Worldwide Ministries;

11094   - to my extreme right is the tallest man in the room, he is Mr. Jamaal Magloire, NBA player and the first Canadian to play for the Toronto Raptors;

11095   - to my immediate left, Mrs. Aisha Wickham Thomas, she is the Director of Communications;

11096   - beside her, to her left, is Mr. Keith Kadete, otherwise known as "MC Bonde," your 98.7 host of "The African Groove" show;

11097   - to Mr. Kadete's left is Ms Belinda Alleyne-Hoppler, a businesswoman and a listener and supporter of G98.7;

11098   - to her extreme left -- to my extreme left is Ms Hodan Hussain who lives in Scarborough and she is a volunteer at G98.7 and a lover of the station;

11099   - seated in the second row, to my extreme left, is Mr. Stuart Hahn, our Engineer;

11100   - next to Mr. Hahn is Mr. Wayne Williams, our Program Director.

11101   Our first intervener is seated beside him. He is Mr. Chris Mills, General Manager WEGZ Stadium Bar and Woodbine Entertainment Group.

11102   Seated beside Mr. Mills is the second intervener, Mr. Tony Jno-Baptiste, Program Manager, TAIBU Community Health Centre.

11103   Our final intervener is Ms Pauline Christian, President of the Black Business and Professional Association, and she is seated directly behind me.

11104   And to her right is Ms Adriana Steele, G98.7's General Sales Manager.

11105   Next to her is Ms Dahlia Bateman, our Legal Counsel, not that we may need her here today.

11106   IBN's objective today is in keeping with the Commission's advice to applicants for technical amendments that:

"...a licensee must unequivocally demonstrate how the increased coverage will:
- secure the financial viability of the station; and/or
- solve interference or reception issues affecting the community it is licensed to serve."

11107   We don't need to defend the wisdom of the Commission, as some people would want us to do, with regards to the licensing of IBN with a signal that was known to be limited from the outset.

11108   On the contrary, we are proud of the fact that we have developed a viable frequency in the Toronto market on a dial where there was no frequency before. We are grateful for the trust and opportunity the Commission has placed in us.

11109   Granting IBN's technical amendment to 88.1 will enable us to fulfill our approved mandate to provide programming not only to those living in the central and western part of the Greater Toronto Area but those living in the east end of the City as well.

11110   Let's look at our journey.

11111   I want to sincerely thank the Commission for entrusting us -- and I am a small independent broadcaster among the giants of Canadian broadcasters -- with a licence. In June 2011 the Commission entrusted us to bring the first ever World Beat formatted radio station to the Canadian airwaves and this after several attempts.

11112   With the granting of our licence, the Commission gave a clear message to our community that we were a priority, and therefore we can surmise that had 88.1 FM been available at the time of our application we would have been in a strong position to receive a broadcast licence for that frequency.

11113   I am proud to report that your decision to grant us a radio licence, although on a limited channel, is already exceeding expectations in our community, providing the community with spoken word, World Beat music, international sports and other culturally specific programming that they so longed for. Oh, how I wish the over 1 million people in Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, Oshawa and area were able to listen to our programming without interference.

11114   Commissioners, everyone knew that the 98.7 frequency would not give us the full coverage that would be required to reach the entirety of the audience. We always knew that the signal had limitations. However, it was the only choice that we had. We had to accept what we call a bird in the hand rather than hope for the two birds in the bush.

11115   In our 2010 application we recognized the technical limitations expected of 98.7. I advised Industry Canada and the Commission in our technical brief that:

"The coverage achieved is the best possible at this time; some important parts of the applicant's potential market are not well served, particularly in Scarborough... The applicant intends to improve the availability of the station's programming ... and will pursue opportunities to improve the coverage as they become available through regulatory and technological developments."

11116   Commissioners, I must say, now the opportunity has arisen. Our application before you is our first opportunity to fulfill our intentions to the Commission and to Industry Canada as stated above in our 2010 approved application.

11117   I will now ask Ms Aisha Wickham Thomas to speak.

11118   MS THOMAS: Thank you, Mr. Gordon.

11119   When we launched G98.7 in November of 2011 we made history by bringing a brand-new rich and diverse sound to the Canadian commercial radio industry with our World Beat format.

11120   We have created more than 30 new full- and part-time jobs to the Canadian broadcasting system. Given our programming philosophy and mandate, visible minorities play key roles at all levels of the organization, on-air, off-air and in management.

11121   IBN has brought significant net new dollars to the Toronto radio market. Twenty-two percent of our total revenue to date comes from community-based advertisers who were not utilizing the radio medium prior to the existence of G98.7 FM.

11122   IBN has partnered with numerous community groups to provide public service announcements.

11123   We have implemented our Canadian Content Development initiatives by providing exposure and support to artists whose music is not being heard anywhere else on mainstream radio.

11124   A few examples are Exco Levi, the 2012 Juno award for Reggae; up-and-coming R&B singer Rochelle Jordan; Toronto-based Soca artist Stephen Hendricks, Jazz vocalist Marisa Lindsay; veteran Gospel singer George Banton; and legendary Reggae and Soul singer, songwriter and producer, Jay Douglas.

11125   G98.7 provides a diverse musical mix that so many Torontonians had been waiting for, spanning decades from the 60s to today and covering genres including R&B, Soul, Reggae, Soca, Chutney, African, Gospel and Smooth Jazz.

11126   MC BLONDE: Good afternoon.

11127   I would like to give you a brief synopsis of G98.7's unique and diverse programming. I am the host and producer of "The African Groove" show, which airs every Sunday morning from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon.

11128   I immigrated to Canada from Zimbabwe in the fall of 2001 and I am known as the Voice of Africa due to my active role in hosting events within the GTA's African community.

11129   Now, before G98.7 FM, the African community, comprised of people originating from more than 50 countries, never had a mainstream outlet to showcase the beauty of its culture.

11130   My show is the first African music program ever on commercial radio in Canada and it has been the source of tremendous pride for the Toronto African community. In fact, Africans living in Canada -- correction, Africans living across Canada, and indeed the world, listen to my show via the World Wide Web at

11131   In addition to my show, we offer a number of specialty programs that are totally unique on the Toronto radio and add diversity to the commercial radio landscape:

11132   - "The Chutney Groove" is the first ever program on commercial radio for this South-Asian-influenced Soca-based music genre.

11133   - "Soca Therapy" provides a concentrated three hours of Soca and Calypso music hosted by internationally renowned DJ Dr. Jay.

11134   - "Riddim Track" is a three-hour show hosted by award-winning DJ Spex, dedicated to the various styles of Reggae genre from Ska, to Rock Steady, Lover's Rock to Dancehall.

11135   - "Grapevine" is hosted by our President Fitzroy Gordon and Mr. Allan Jones. It is a live and interactive call-in show covering current affairs, politics, health, finance, youth, legal matters and other topics of particular relevance to our core Black and Caribbean demographic audience.

11136   - "World Beat Sports" is a two-hour interactive sports talk program covering sports of particular interest in our core audience such as cricket, soccer and track and field.

11137   Now, the following audio clip showcases the diversity that our programming has added to the Toronto airwaves in our short five months of being on air.

--- Audio presentation

11138   MC BLONDE: And that Commissioners, that's the way we groove at G98.7.

11139   Now, I turn it over to Mr. Delford Blythe, our CFO and Vice President.

11140   MR. BLYTHE: Thank you, Commissioners. Thank you, Mr. Gordon.

11141   Let me address the interference or reception issues affecting the Black and Caribbean population whom we are licensed to serve.

11142   After 10 years of struggles to provide a voice to the GTA we had no choice but to accept the 98.7 FM frequency because having something is better than having nothing at all.

11143   The application before you during these hearings is our first and only opportunity since been licensed to improve our ability to reach the full audience that we were licensed to serve.

11144   We simply followed the directives by the Commission in Broadcast Decision 2006-135 to find a viable frequency. 88.1 will not have any issues reaching the 1 million listeners in Scarborough and the eastern GTA who are not able to receive 98.7 programming without interference.

11145   Let's look at Scarborough. Currently only a small part of Scarborough receives the 3mV coverage, and parts of Scarborough are not within the 5mV coverage.

11146   By moving to 88.1 over 50 percent of Scarborough will receive the 3mV service and all of it will be well within the 5mV contour. The protected Scarborough 3mV population will increase from 39,000 to over 385,000. This is a substantial improvement which will significantly alleviate our documented coverage problems and listener complaints.

11147   Also, many within our core target demographic who have moved to the suburbs of Pickering, Ajax, Whitby and Oshawa will finally be able to receive the signal without interference.

11148   The objective of changing the approved frequency from 98.7 to 88.1 is to be able to increase the coverage to IBN's principal target market in the GTA east and northeast communities.

11149   Analysis of the demographics between our current 98 contour and the 88 proposed coverage reveals the following:

11150   - total population in the interference-free contour increased significantly from 2.3 million to over 3.1;

11151   - total listeners in the new 88.1 interference-free contour increased significantly to 73 per cent of total population compared to only 50 percent for CKFG 98.7 -- this represents approximately 700,000 more potential listeners in the GTA east;

11152   - also, the number of households able to receive programming increased to 1.2 million from currently 1 million, again, a 38 percent increase in our ability.

11153   We recognize that this frequency change would result somewhat in a trade-off of northern and westerly coverage for easterly coverage. The demographics of the eastern GTA is an extremely critical part of our targeted market and our viability depends on being able to reach them with our signal. However, the main factor which must be considered for both frequencies is interference from other stations.

11154   As you see, the map currently on the screen compares both coverages. Most of Scarborough is beyond the 98 current interference-free coverage identified in the green marking.

11155   As a result, only 72,000 people in Scarborough, or about 12 percent of the population, receive an interference-free signal.

11156   In contrast, the dark rings provides -- 88.1 provides free coverage to all Scarborough and, overall, it will significantly provide interference-free coverage to three million people in the greater Toronto area, which is 706,000, or 30 percent more than the current 2.3 million served by 98.7.

11157   The concentration of blacks and Caribbean in the east is significant. The ability to reach the full targeted market is crucial to the financial success of the station.

11158   We estimate that with the 700,000 listeners in over 236,000 households we are excluding is causing a potential loss of over 600,000 in annual advertising revenue.

11159   Senior national advertisers and national agencies have stated that if they can't hear the station, it causes advertisers to question your full reach potential. In other words, for national chain brands, if you cannot be heard across the entire GTA, there is a strong possibility that you will not receive the advertisement dollars.

11160   Our research has shown that black families also spending in the GTA the $6.5 billion market. Advertisers are anxious to have a direct commercial radio station targeting that market.

11161   We have the unique opportunity of offering many local and national advertisers a targeted approach to reaching this audience, and as an independent small broadcaster, we need the ability to reach our full market to be able to compete.

11162   Had 88.1 been available at the time of our application, it would have been our only choice.

11163   MR. GORDON: Thank you, Mr. Blythe.

11164   The Rev Dr. Harley James.

11165   REV DR. JAMES: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, back in 1980 my wife and I, with a small group of faithful believers, founded Revival Time Tabernacle Worldwide Ministries.

11166   Since that time, our ministry has grown to approximately 3,000 members, with four churches in the City of Toronto and affiliated churches in the United States, Africa and the Caribbean.

11167   Unlike what is always assumed, the black and Caribbean population is not homogenous in our appearance. Our heritage in Canada goes back to Matthieu Da Costa, who in 1600 accompanied -- was accompanied by Samuel de Chaplain on his exploration.

11168   Since then, we have grown to over 600,000 across the GTA, representing a diverse, electric mix with origins in continental Africa, the Caribbean, India, China, the Middle East and Europe. Therefore, our community, black and Caribbean, is not merely represented by Statistics Canada definition of black. It also includes the large Caribbean such as Trinidad and Guyana, populations of South Asian origins and Chinese-Jamaicans such as prominent businessmen Michael Lechin and Raymond Chung, Chancellor of Ryerson University.

11169   It must be noted that thousands of Canadians who are of Caucasian, South Asian and Chinese ancestry are, in fact, from Africa or the Caribbean.

11170   The black and Caribbean community had been craving an outlet for music and programming for a faith-based perspective prior to the existence of G98.7.

11171   The radio station's daily morning gospel music program as well as Gospel Morning heard on Sundays and Saturdays from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. has provided an important musical and information outlet for the faith-based community.

11172   The station has also given the Christian community an important vehicle through which to advertise our events. I am a proud advertiser on the station, but unfortunately, 98.7 is not able to reach the audience of my churches in North Scarborough and in Pickering.

11173   In fact, that 98.7 has experienced a success in its first months is in validation of the Commission's wise decision in June 2011 in granting the licence to Mr. Gordon and his team. G98.7's presence has resulted in an overwhelming demand for its programming and people of all backgrounds, regardless of where they live in the city, deserve to be able to hear the station and be enriched by its positive and empowering content.

11174   MR. MAGLOIRE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. My name is Jamaal Magloire, and I'm the first ever Canadian to play for the Toronto Raptors or any Canadian team.

11175   I spent many years in the United States and have seen the positive impact that urban radio has had on communities from the standpoint of providing inner city youth with a voice and exposing them to positive role models.

11176   I was born in Toronto to parents that immigrated from Trinidad and Tobago. When I was coming of age in the east end of Toronto in the early 1990s, there was no mainstream radio that reflected my culture. There was no opportunity for me as a young black male to hear positive role models from my community talking about issues that affect me and my peers on commercial radio stations.

11177   I, and many other Torontonians of my age, turned away from radio because there was no station that we could relate to.

11178   We felt disregarded by other commercial radio stations. G98.7 has brought us back to radio. In addition to validating the many genres of black and black-influenced music by providing a mainstream outlet, G98.7 also gives coverage to sports that other stations don't give a voice to such as cricket, soccer and track and field.

11179   I am passionate about -- of course about sports, and I'm so happy that this station has finally validated those sports that others have ignored.

11180   This station is so powerful and a positive influence on the youth within Toronto's black and Caribbean community. G98.7 truly is more than just a radio station; it's a gathering place of the community and commerce.

11181   The station has given me a medium to discuss and promote the work that I am currently doing with the youth in the community through scholarships, breakfast programs and life skill-based sport programs.

11182   It's very unfortunate that so many young people, particularly in the east end of the city, are not able to access this station that represents them. We are missing a huge opportunity to empower a whole generation of young people.

11183   I currently live in Scarborough and have problems picking up the station. It's disappointing and frustrating to think that so many youth are unable to access the programming that G98 offers.

11184   Mr. Gordon and his team fought so long and hard just to have the opportunity to have this voice. I urge you to help this voice reach its full potential audience.

11185   MS ALLEYNE-HOPPLER: Good afternoon, Chairman and Commissioners. I first would personally like to say thank you for granting G98.7 the platform to bring to Toronto and the surrounding areas world beat music and enriching dialogue that we, my community, has waited so long for.

11186   As a young woman, entrepreneur, mother and wife in an inter-racial relationship, it has been very important for me and my family to be able to enjoy a media outlet that wholly and completely celebrates the beauty of my black and Caribbean culture.

11187   I represent the average G98.7 listener who's elated by, celebrated by, thankful for and extremely proud of this radio station. On behalf of hundreds of G98.7 listeners who wrote letters of support with this application and the hundred of thousands more who have been disenfranchised by not being able to access this station's frequency, my purpose here today is to speak about the tremendous positive impact this station has had on our community.

11188   G98.7 offers mature, quality entertainment and informative programming. Listening to G98.7 feeds mind and the soul and many others.

11189   Unfortunately, though, I am frustrated on a daily basis by the signal interference I experience on my commutes from my home in Markham to my business in Ajax, where I, along with both my parents and brother, operates our very own establishments.

11190   I, personally, operate a spa business, but it is very disappointing to lose a signal when I cross the York-Durham line going east. But I especially feel sympathy for those who live and work in the east end and are never able to experience the enriching music and informative talk programming that G98.7 offers.

11191   A fellow listener, Rob Nadeau, wrote in his intervention letter that:

"G98.7 has quickly become an important part of this musical fabric of Toronto. While this station plays a critical part in serving the black and Caribbean population, it is not just a black station. It's important to anyone who loves R&B, soul, reggae and world beats musical genres."

11192   I'm here to tell you as a white Canadian -- not myself, the person who wrote the letter:

"...that this station is very important to me and my family. I urge you to help ensure G98.7 is able to fulfil its destiny by their move to the 88.1 FM frequency."

11193   And I strongly concur with this listener's comments. This whole city needs G98.7 and the entire population deserves a chance to hear this station, which is delivering content that no one else has yet offered before.

11194   I thank you for hearing me today.

11195   MS HUSSEIN: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.

11196   From the first time that I listened to G98.7, I became an instant fan. It's a nostalgic experience for me when I listen to the songs from my childhood. As such, I'm a proud G98.7 listener and volunteer.

11197   Originally from Somaliland, East Africa, I immigrated to Canada as the eldest of five children with my family in the mid '80s. Now, I'm a single mother of four in my late 30s with children ranging in age from 10 to 17.

11198   I am a teacher and a local recording artist, so I was delighted when G98.7 hit the airwaves last fall.

11199   This station has given me an opportunity to volunteer and gain experience in a professional broadcasting environment. It's the only mainstream media outlet that reflects the heritage and culture of the black Canadian community at large.

11200   This station is building a legacy, not only for me to be proud of, but also for my children and my children's children.

11201   I live in Scarborough, too, so I can speak firsthand about the frustration of having difficulty of picking up the signal in my home and also while I drive.

11202   I, along with many other east enders, experience static and dropouts, and it's a shame that more people are not able to access the positive programming that G98.7 offers due to the signal.

11203   I believe in the station and its mission. I need this station, my kids need this station, and the community at large needs this station.

11204   Thank you for listening.

11205   MR. GORDON: Thank you very much.

11206   To conclude, Mr. Chairman, while we currently call ourselves a Toronto radio station, there is a significant portion of our audience, as you heard, that cannot access our signal within the heart of the 416 area code.

11207   There are stations broadcasting from Hamilton in the west, Niagara and, of course, Peterborough in the east that can reach listeners in the City of Toronto, but we, as a Toronto station, can't reach our own listeners within Toronto. And that's a shame.

11208   We look forward to the day that we can truly call ourselves a Toronto radio station serving not only those in the west, but all Canadians no matter where they live in the city.

11209   The black and Caribbean community and hundreds of thousands more Torontonians, regardless of where they live or work in the GTA, who appreciate our new and vibrant world beat programming deserve to be able to listen to the only radio station that has given voice to their music and their culture.

11210   We strongly believe that as an incumbent broadcaster licensed to be able to fully serve this demographic would fulfil the public's interest.

11211   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I want to thank you very much, and I'd like to say that I hope that this will be the occasion that those in the west will not see themselves as my stepchild, but my real child -- in the east. I'm sorry.

11212   It's like having two children, one in the west and one in the east, and I take care of one and ignore the other. I want to be a good parent. Can you help me to do that?

11213   I thank you.

11214   Now I'm going to invite our first intervenor, Mr. Chris Mills, to speak at this time.


11215   MR. MILLS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission staff. Thank you for the opportunity to speak before you today.

11216   My name is Chris Mills, and I'm a senior manager with the Woodbine Entertainment Group.

11217   Woodbine Entertainment Group is a not for profit corporation operating a multi-dimensional entertainment business, and is the largest horse-racing operator in Canada. I've been with the company for five years, overseeing several stand-alone food and beverage operations.

11218   Currently, I'm the general manager of Weg Stadium Bar, a 23,000 square foot sports and entertainment facility located in Vaughn, and is part of the Woodbine Entertainment Group.

11219   I'm a proud supporter of G98.7, which has answered the hopes and dreams of the community by bringing a long-overdue mainstream outlet to honour and showcase black and Caribbean culture. I strongly support Inner-City Broadcasting Network Inc.'s application to move the 98.7 frequency to 88.1 FM.

11220   G98.7 is unique in Canadian radio. The station has added diversity of programming and ownership in Canadian media and has provided an outlet for music and culture that was previously limited to block programming on community and ethnic stations.

11221   As the first ever world beat formatted station in Toronto, I believe G98.7 truly reflects the cultural mosaic of our city through its musical offering, which ranges from soul to R&B to reggae to soca to African to jazz, and much more.

11222   By playing music from the '60s to present day, the station bridges a gap that previously existed between generations of music lovers. G98.7 connects young and old in ways other mainstream formats have failed to achieve.

11223   G98.7 has added vibrancy to the city with its remote broadcasts from entertainment establishments in Mississauga, Brampton and Vaughn. Unfortunately, patrons in the east must travel across the city if they wish to enjoy G98.7's live broadcast due to the signal interference that hampers G98.7 from having the same presence in entertainment venues in the east end.

11224   In addition to reflecting the music landscape of black and Caribbean culture, G98.7 also offers programming covering political, social, religious and health arenas in order to provide a much-needed forum for discussion of issues of vital importance to this demographic.

11225   In the areas of sports, G98.7 has, for the first time, provided primetime coverage to world sports such as horse racing, cricket, soccer and track and field. These sports and their fans have long been overlooked by the mainstream media.

11226   G98.7 is filling a void in covering of these sports and providing an opportunity for the city to finally hear about these local athletes who have aspirations of representing Canada on the international stage.

11227   Some of Canada's most prominent athletes like world champion hurdler Perdita Felicien, Olympic silver medalist bobsledder Shelley-Anne Brown and NBA player, Jamaal Magloire, joined us on the panel today make their home in the east end of Toronto, and they, themselves, have difficulty accessing the program that sings their praises and celebrates their success.

11228   G98.7 has given voice to an entire community to express itself in so many ways through its entertainment, news, sports and informative talk programming. I urge the Commission to grant IBN with a technical amendment so they will be able to achieve their full potential and the full scope of the audience who's demanding the programming.


11229   MR. JNO-BAPTISTE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, for the opportunity present today to support the Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc's application for a technical amendment to change its frequency from 98.7 FM to 88.1 FM.

11230   My name is Tony Jno-Baptiste, and I'm the program manager for Taibu Community Health Centre, which is committed to providing primary health care services to the black community in the greater Ontario -- greater Toronto area as its primary target population.

11231   Taibu is situated in the community of Malvern in eastern Scarborough, which is in the heart of the area most negatively affected by the signal problems experienced on the 98.7 frequency.

11232   Taibu, which is a Swahili meaning "be in good health", is the only black focus radio -- sorry, only black focus health centre in Ontario.

11233   Black Canadians comprise of the largest visible minority group in Scarborough, totalling 118,000 people. Many of these people who are core in our demographic are unable to access radio station in their homes or while travelling throughout various parts of Scarborough.

11234   Approximately 30 percent of our clients come from Pickering or Ajax.

11235   From a health promotion perspective, research has shown that the black population is one of the most challenging visible minority group to engage within the health care system. It has been consistent with our experience in working with this particular population at the centre.

11236   Community radio and radio stations with an ethno-cultural focus are proven to be a valuable tool in facilitating and encouraging social inclusion, social change and community development by producing programs that are community focused and relevant and addressing specific issues and concerns to niche audiences.

11237   G98.7, therefore, is an important part of our strategy to reach our core clientele. Since we began sponsoring the daily health check feature on G98.7, which is a 30-second vignette providing information and tips on issues such as diabetes awareness, cancer prevention and exercise options, we have seen a very noticeable increase in our client engagement as well as in their involvement and awareness in our health promotion initiatives.

11238   This growth has occurred despite the fact that the majority of our core target audience, which resides in the geographical area surrounding Taibu, is unable to receive interference-free signals. Imagine if we could reach the entirety of our population that we were existing to serve.

11239   G98.7's presence has created a virtual community which makes children, adults and seniors a part of something large than themselves. Having one's culture reflected in mainstream gave our children a sense of purpose and pride that is often lacking in today's society.

11240   G98.7 has created a forum for knowledge transfer to take place across generations.

11241   On a personal level, I am a resident of Durham, and due to the limitation of the signal, my family and I are deprived of the opportunity to tune in to G98.7 while in the comfort of our homes. We are only able to access this programming while in transit to and from Toronto.

11242   G98.7 is an important outlet in which my children can be exposed to progressive and enriched programming, including culturally-relevant music, news, and information about local events.

11243   It is very frustrating that we are denied access to this programming despite the fact that we live within the boundaries of the GTA.

11244   G98.7 is more than just a radio station. Through its programming G98.7 is increasing a sense of community and civic-mindedness as well as cultural pride. It is increasing social inclusion and social responsiveness. It is assisting in the reduction of health barriers for the Black and Caribbean population.

11245   For TAIBU, G98.7 provides us with a forum to engage our audience on health promotion initiatives through talk shows and on-air awareness vignettes. G98.7 is having a tangible impact on improving the lives of its listening audience, and we urge the Commission to approve this application so that the station can reach the scope of the audience that it was licensed to serve


11246   MS CHRISTIAN: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission staff. My name is Pauline Christian, President of the Black Business and Professional Association (BBPA).

11247   Established in 1982, the BBPA is the largest and oldest charitable organization of its kind in Canada. Today, I am very honoured and privileged to partner with Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc., owners and operators of G98.7, in our mutual efforts for community building and community advancement.

11248   G98.7 has delivered so much to the Black and broader communities in such a short period of time, that it has been like a breath of fresh air and at the same time mind-boggling.

11249   Similarly to G98.7, the BBPA was born out of a desire to meet the needs of a specific and underserved cultural and racial group within the Canadian Mosaic.

11250   With over 30 years of strong presence in the community nationwide, the BBPA is proud to be the association of choice for hundreds of young professionals.

11251   The mandate of the BBPA is to facilitate the advancement of the Black community by supporting and delivering programs that are in pursuit of:

11252   (a) Business and professional excellence, which is delivered through the Distinguished Men and Women of Honour annual awards as well as the Harry Jerome Awards, Canada's most prestigious African-Canadian awards;

11253   (b) Higher education, which is delivered through the National Scholarship Fund established in 1986, one of Canada's largest African-Canadian Scholarship Funds. To date, we have offered over $2.6 million to over 700 students and G98.7 has been a key partner in our recent fundraising efforts, and;

11254   (c) Entrepreneurship and economic development which is achieved through the BBPA, the Black Business and Professional Convention, which was established in 2010 in an effort to shrink the socio-economic divide and to cultivate an appetite for economic development via strategic repositioning, job creation and wealth creation within the Black community.

11255   G98.7 has partnered with the BBPA to conduct a mobile workshop to reach the small and medium enterprises in our community that are underserved.

11256   Undoubtedly, the BBPA is proud to partner with the G98.7 and has realized measurable growth in our programs and activities since our partnership.

11257   Now, having shared who we are and significant growth we have realized as a result of our partnership with G98.7, I would like to take the opportunity to thank CRTC for offering G98.7 a broadcast licence to operate Canada's first and only World Beat-formatted radio station, designed to meet the needs of the Black and Caribbean population, an underserved core target group, and Toronto's third-largest visible minority group.

11258   The incremental and measurable successes that we have realized by partnering with G98.7 is largely because of the CRTC exercising sense of reflecting diversity and doing the right thing in 2011.

11259   In terms of the signal issues experienced by G98.7 frequency, we have encountered some fundamental and inherent roadblocks as it relates to reaching our target group through our advertising partnership with G98.7.

11260   My office gets numerous complaints from my membership residing in the east that they cannot hear BBPA's promotions that we promised they would hear on air via G98.7. I know this is a fact, as I live in Ajax and consistently experience interference. You can, therefore, imagine the financial impact or missed opportunity this would be for G98.7, when businesses are hesitant to purchase ads if they cannot hear their message.

11261   Today, we trust that you will view our presentation in the light that it is intended and have you consider Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc. as the organization that will be best suited for the 88.1 FM frequency, based on the opportunity that you have provided in G98.7 FM, which has been a good start; however proven to be limited.

11262   The fact that a large portion of our audience cannot access the signal is very disappointing from both an economic and community development perspective.

11263   With the opportunity provided G98.7 in 2011, they have turned around and become a great force in championing the community. It is commendable that G98.7 has displayed such a huge community and social conscience and has gone beyond their call of duty to engage and invest so much in the community at large. Being engaged in community efforts for over two decades, I believe this is unprecedented in terms of community engagement for a mainstream media outlet. I hope you would agree with me that this effort of selflessness and stellar performance should be recognized.

11264   On behalf of the BBPA, I therefore appeal to the CRTC to grant technical amendment to move to 88.1 FM, therefore ensuring that IBN Inc. can operate a fully viable and sustainable radio station.

11265   G98.7, thanks for living up to your corporate responsibility and thank you, Commissioners, for giving me this time to address you today. I am looking forward to your favourable response.

11266   Thank you.

11267   MR. GORDON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Commissioners. We will now take your questions.

11268   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much for appearing here.

11269   I would ask Commissioner Molnar to begin the questioning.

11270   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Thank you. And good afternoon, everyone.

11271   MR. GORDON: Good afternoon.

11272   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: It is really a wonderful story to hear how much that this station has brought to the market you are serving so quickly and I thank your interveners for coming and telling their stories and how it's contributed within their business and personal lives as well.

11273   I'm going to focus my questions maybe to you, Mr. Gordon, and if you need your team to help by all means involve them as you need.

11274   But I think you made a comment when you came that you feel like you're at the end of the baseball or something to that effect. I look and I thought, yeah, he brought an entire team.

--- Laughter

11275   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Anyway, just to start, I know when we licensed you not that long ago, and I have heard all the wonderful outcomes and success beyond expectation. But when exactly did you physically launch your station?

11276   MR. GORDON: We were officially launched in October -- October 3rd. But our first day on air was the 26th day of November, 2011 which means we are still a baby in diapers, only five months plus old.

11277   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Yeah, so you weren't operating very long before you filed this new application at all?

11278   MR. GORDON: As soon as we -- no, but as soon as we got the license from you which we were still walking on cloud nine, being thankful for, we decided that we would move straight ahead in order to put this radio station on the air because we know that there is a great need for it. Not long after the opportunity came for the 88.1 signal.

11279   As we mentioned earlier that we did -- in our engineering brief stated that we will accept this 98.7 because there is nothing else, but we also put the Commission and Industry Canada on notice advising them that should something better come we would like to be the first in line to receive it.

11280   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Well, one of the issues, as you know, is there is many in line to receive it.

11281   So today with your application and your presence here today we need to determine whether a technical amendment is warranted through technical or economic means. Then as well, of course, there is the big issue as regards whether it's the best use of the frequency.

11282   So I'm going to just deal with a couple of those before I hand you over to other Commissioners whom I sure will also have questions.

11283   My first question related to technical is can you just confirm that the 98.7 is providing coverage and meeting the needs as you anticipated when you made the application for that frequency in 2010?

11284   MR. GORDON: The 98.7 frequency is meeting a need. Now, our population is a very large one and one of the --

11285   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Yes, Mr. Gordon, and I understand that. We will talk about what 98.7 doesn't -- what the contours don't serve in just a minute. I do have some questions about that.

11286   I just want to confirm that you made the application for 98.7 in 2010. I am aware of the history and it was the best there was available.

11287   But have you had any surprises from what you expected 98.7 to be able to deliver when you made the application and what it in fact can deliver to you?

11288   MR. GORDON: Yeah, we have had surprises. In fact, we worked very hard to refine the scene -- we took something from you know, dust, and make it into something that a lot of people are enjoying right now.

11289   We were a little bit surprised in terms of what we have gotten out of it. Our engineers worked very well. I'm not surprised with the quality program -- our programming that we are presenting to the population. That has been well received and well documented.

11290   Mr. Blythe will add something.

11291   MR. BLYTHE: One of the surprises we discovered in terms of our expectation of advertising revenues was that advertisers were reluctant when they realized the signal was limited in terms of its reach in the east end.

11292   So the premise under which we had forecasted the financial viability for our application came into question because certainly now advertisers were saying, "You are not able to reach the entire GTA?" and large, especially the national accounts were now saying, "I'm sorry. We cannot advertise with you unless you do something about your signal."

11293   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Right, but from a pure technical perspective it is delivering what you expected. You haven't found there is a host of condos or something it's delivering?

11294   I mean we are hearing about that a little bit today, right, with different interference or problems with signal reception. It's technically delivering what you anticipated. Economically perhaps not, but technically it is delivering what you anticipated?

11295   MR. BLYTHE: Based on the technical parameters which we were forced -- well, we had to accept because it's a second adjacent frequency, we can say it is fulfilling that but it is limited in terms of fulfilling the exact reach of where our community is.

11296   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay, thank you. Let's get into that if you don't mind.

11297   There is a number of different numbers that I see here about who is un-served with the frequency that you have today and who you would be able to serve with 88.1. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding that. I think it's on page 8 and page 9 of your brief.

11298   So let's go through just to make sure I understand. You say that -- on page 8 you say:

"The total population in the interference free zone increased significantly..."

11299   And this is comparing 98.7 to 88.1, from 2.3 million to over 3.1 million compared to 98.7.

11300   And what confuses me is when I flip the page it says -- on the top of page 9 it says:

"Overall, 88.1 MHz will provide interference free coverage to 3.066 [million] people in the [GTA]...which is 706,000...more than... served by the present 98.7 MHz frequency."

11301   So I'm having a little bit of -- I guess that is 700,000, is it?

11302   MR. BLYTHE: Yes, it is. Yeah.

11303   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: So that's the same number?

11304   MR. BLYTHE: That's correct.

11305   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay. And that's a net number including what you would lose from the west to go east?

11306   MR. BLYTHE: Correct, the interference free is looking at the net benefit in terms of listenership.

11307   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: And that's the entire population in that region.

11308   And I think I read somewhere your target audience is approximately, what, 16 percent of the total population?

11309   MR. BLYTHE: The audience in the eastern area is about 16 percent of the one million that is living in the eastern area of the GTA, as per Stats Can. We would argue that it's more about 20 percent.

11310   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: About 20 percent. So about, if I'm doing math off the top of my head -- you're certainly welcome to correct me if I'm wrong here -- but 20 percent of 700,000 is about 35,000 listeners, right?

11311   MR. BLYTHE: No, the 20 percent represents the total population that is affected. The number of our community or Black and Caribbean who live in the eastern area is 20 percent of about one million. That is the total population versus our representation in the population.

11312   The 700,000 represent the net listenership, the potential listenership that exists in the interference free contour. That includes all listeners, all individuals.

11313   So the 700,000 represents a potential listenership if we should be authorized to go to 88.1. It represents the increase in net listenership.

11314   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: I understand that, but you begin this with saying that you are talking about interference or reception issues affecting the Black and Caribbean population to whom we are licensed to serve.

11315   So what is the net change in the population to whom you are licensed to serve -- licensed to serve being your words, not mine. And it's not 700,000, right?

11316   MR. BLYTHE: No, it would be at least 200,000.

11317   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: A net increase with this -- if you were to get this technical amendment it would increase by 200,000?

11318   MR. BLYTHE: That's the population of the Caribbean and Blacks in the eastern part of the GTA that is currently underserved.

11319   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Net of those you would give up in the west?

11320   MR. BLYTHE: Yes, the audience -- when we examined the numbers in the west, the area that we are giving up we don't have a high concentration of our community in the area. It's more northwest in the Erin and north, we'll say, Caledon. So the population there is not comprised of our community.

11321   And the GTA, especially Scarborough which has a high concentration of Blacks and Caribbean will certainly -- well, that's why I said the net benefit will be significant for us.

11322   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay. I want to move on to the issue of economic need. You note that you are doing well today. You say from a community perspective you are exceeding expectations.

11323   You did file with us forecasts of what you anticipate this technical amendment will do for you. You say it has potential or you project the revenue foregone is within the range of $600,000 per year.

11324   Can you tell me how that $600,000 came about?

11325   MR. BLYTHE: Sure. What I did was I took the total broadcast market which is 250 million and worked with a per capita rate which is about $38 based on a GTA population of 6.5 million.

11326   I looked at the net amount of new listeners we will be now able to reach and that turns out to be a market of about 30 million.

11327   Based on our own population of about 200,000 -- 200,000 and based on, you know, numbers that we have received made a fair, reasonable projection that our potential loss will be about 600,000, which is very small compared to that overall $30 million that I think the market right now that is not receiving our signal interference free.

11328   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: So with or without that additional 600,000, so with or without approval of this technical amendment the projections filed for this station are significantly more optimistic than the projections that were filed with the application in 2010. In 2010 you had projected that you would achieve profitability in Year 4, minimal profitability.

11329   Looking at your projections now, and without approval of this, you would project that you would achieve profitability within Year 3. Is that correct?

11330   MR. BLYTHE: These numbers, Commissioner, were done about the time we went on the air and so there were a great amount of expectations.

11331   And to go back to the earlier question about some of the areas where we have seen, I would say, challenges since we have been on the air, is the fact that the expectations of our revenue from our advertisers have been less than we expected because of the interference problem.

11332   So these numbers were based on a certain expectation at the time but reality has set in now that we are on the air. Whereas, we could perhaps give projections to national advertisers about our potential reach and our potential audience, now that we are getting hard data to see that we are unable to access over a million people in the east, we are having difficulty getting those advertisers to come on board.

11333   MR. GORDON: Commissioner, I will ask my General Sales Manager, Ms Adriana Steele, to add something to this.

11334   MS STEELE: Thank you, Commissioner.

11335   I would just like to add some actual numbers with respect to national advertisers on the radio station. We currently sit at 5 percent of our revenue coming from national advertisers whereas other radio stations in the market are considerably higher than that.

11336   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Recognizing that you had very little opportunity to get real and actual experience between when you launched and when you filed this application, and also recognizing we are not in a position to really allow you to change your application and the details, just yes or no: Do you believe that 600,000 remains a valid number today based on additional --

11337   MR. BLYTHE: In terms of the lost --

11338   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  -- lost opportunity.

11339   MR. BLYTHE:  -- lost opportunity? Based on the calculation I would say yes because it's taken the numbers provided by the market and worked it basically per capita. Assuming the same experience overall for all the station, I think it's reasonable.

11340   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: And I take from what you have just said that you feel with additional experience since this has been filed, the projections that you have provided with or without this amendment are perhaps a bit optimistic?

11341   MR. BLYTHE: We had zero experience since this was filed in December, just a couple of weeks or a week after we were on the air.


11343   MR. BLYTHE: And so we have now realized the challenges as the sales manager will attest to, getting national accounts especially.

11344   And even local community businesses who are also in the east are saying: I can't hear you, therefore I'm sorry, I can't advertise with you.

11345   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay. I probably need to use my fingers to figure out November until now, just a few months.

11346   MR. BLYTHE: It's just a few months.

11347   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Just a few months. Do you have any actuals that you would be able to file with the Commission --

11348   MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we do.

11349   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  -- actual results today?

11350   MR. BLYTHE: We have actual results today for sales, yes.

11351   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Full financials --

11352   MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

11353   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  -- not just sales?

11354   MR. BLYTHE: Yes.


11356   MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we have.

11357   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Would you be willing to file those as an undertaking?

11358   MR. BLYTHE: Yes, Commissioner.

11359   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: There is a relatively short timeframe to file undertakings. They are available and you can file that?

11360   MR. BLYTHE: They are available. The statements up to April are available. So that's the most recent financials that are prepared and we can file those with the Commission showing where we are in terms of our sales.


11361   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay, thank you very much. We would appreciate it if you would do that.

11362   I want to leave with just one question. As I mentioned, the challenge is that not only do we need to determine whether a technical amendment is warranted due to technical or economic reasons but in this particular case we also need to determine if it is the best use of this very scarce resource we have in front of us and so I want to give you an opportunity to address that, Mr. Gordon.

11363   MR. GORDON: You gave us a licence in June of 2011 and we immediately set to work to provide the Black and Caribbean population with programming that is long desired. In fact, we did not expect that the station would be in such great demand insofar as the places.

11364   We immediately -- when we started we started to get complaints from Scarborough and area and people were pretty upset, wondering why they can't get the station, after years of waiting and rallying with us and writing letters and making submissions, that we can't -- the east end cannot get the station.

11365   Now, I believe that the frequency that we got, 98.7, that frequency, as we know, is much stronger in the west end or central Toronto. We thought we would have gotten a little better out of it in the eastern part of Toronto.

11366   We tried with the incumbent broadcaster to no avail. They just would not hear our cries. So we decided what we are going to do, we are going to put things together as much as possible.

11367   As you noticed, Commissioner, it didn't take us long at all to get on the air. In fact, I can't remember any station that has gotten on the air so fast in Toronto. We probably have a little record there.

11368   So once we got on the air and we tweaked and we tweaked and keep tweaking -- our engineer is here with us -- we found out that there is not much more we could get out of this. We could milk it as much as possible, but we got to the point where we could not really help the folks in the east end.

11369   So as we said in our engineering brief in our application, that should a better signal come up we would participate.

11370   Now, the Commission did not wait too long before the call was out for applicants to this frequency. It was very quick. Can you imagine, as soon as we got on air, here comes the call. What do we do?

11371   Well, we had to heed the call because we are serving a population that was right across the GTA. Scarborough and Ajax and all the areas are very packed with people from the Black and Caribbean population, and I must say to you that it may be surprising to many that the people that listen to this radio station are not only Black and Caribbean people.

11372   When there are prizes, giveaways at the station, you may be surprised to see the folks who are coming in for those prices. They are not Black and Caribbean, a lot of them. They're everyone who loves the type of music and programming that we present, because other radio stations in Toronto don't.

11373   I know that the signal is not the best out there, but we have used a little signal and we have turned it into something wonderful that advertisers, mainstream advertisers are coming aboard. And when you have the people like GM or Winners or people like those knocking on our doors you know that we are doing something good.

11374   Mr. Blythe will finish this for me.

11375   MR. BLYTHE: The issue of best use of the frequency, I wanted to just point out, as the third largest visible minority group in the city we are the only one who had to fight for 10 years to get a dedicated signal.

11376   We had to create a signal because there wasn't any left. The fact that we did that means that the Toronto market now has another frequency which is available where it didn't.

11377   Where others were resigned to the lack of frequency, we were proactive and it took us -- you know, Mr. Gordon, the fight -- we went very much on behalf of community because there was a need.

11378   This community has waited, they have been patient. In fact, in some cases they have been disappointed before and they are asking themselves many times, why are we settling with a second adjacent signal when all other visible minority groups have a clear third adjacent? Why are we not able to receive the signal just like the other communities?

11379   I won't name names, but why are we not able to receive the signal, that is the question we keep asking us. Why? You know, you had to fight hard to take the little that you could get.

11380   And had we known at the time and had 88.1 been available at the time -- which historically was also serving our community, by the way, you know, Commission. It was one of the first in the country to promote our culture and, you know, we are just at a loss sometimes as to why we are somehow not getting in the community's mind a fair shake in terms of a free signal that will not have the interruption.

11381   Even today our signal was, you know, affected where it shouldn't have been. So we get complaints all the time and we are talking to the community, we tell them: Be patient, we are advocating on your behalf.

11382   And in terms of bringing a vibrant sound to the Toronto market, I think this station has done so, has demonstrated so.

11383   In terms of bringing diversity to the ownership, in terms of bringing something new, not rehashing formats, the Commission has something to be proud of in licensing the first World Beat station in -- well, I can stand to say in Toronto, some might say in Canada.

11384   So we had to do a lot of things. We had to create a format, we had to create a signal, and here we are, as far as the community is concerned, still trying to really give them the full service that they so deserve.

11385   So in terms of the best use we have demonstrated more than anyone else, if I may say, that we deserve -- the community deserves the opportunity to have their signal -- to have their programming wherever they are.

11386   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Thank you. Those are my questions.

11387   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

11388   I have one question. You opened by talking about your journey and the fact that you had to settle for a bird in the hand, as you called it, rather than two in the bush.

11389   When I look at your contour maps, I have a concern that you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul. You are certainly interested in Scarborough, you made no doubt about it during your opening remarks here, but obviously that part of North York and the western part are not going to be served under your proposal for an 88.1 licence.

11390   So explain to me why you're trading off one territory for another.

11391   MR. GORDON: Could you -- you're talking about where we are right now.

11392   In trading off, Commissioner, we're looking at -- not west. Not a lot of our population lives in that area. And what we are trading is quantity to gain quality. And when you gain quality you will have dedicated listeners and you will also have more advertisers.

11393   We have a lot of businesses that are in this new area that we would like to reach, but because they cannot hear us properly a lot of them are not advertising right now.

11394   THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't have any listeners in North York?

11395   MR. GORDON: North York. I just want to look at exactly where in North York you're talking about.

11396   THE CHAIRPERSON: Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence.

11397   MR. GORDON: No, no, no. We are heard in that area very well.

11398   THE CHAIRPERSON: That's not where the -- well you won't be under this new proposal. I'm looking at your map here. You are not going to be heard up in that area at all.

11399   MR. GORDON: No, no. I don't -- let me ask our engineer to address that, please.

11400   MR. HAHN: Well, you are talking about the 3mV contour?

11401   THE CHAIRPERSON: That's what I'm looking at right now, yes.

11402   MR. HAHN: Yes, there will be some loss of 3mV service, but we will still have a signal there in terms of interference-free coverage.

11403   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you will have a signal there, but you have a signal there I would imagine with the current frequency you have as well, although it's spotty, because it's at .5mV in Scarborough as well. But what you're saying is it's not good enough in Scarborough at .5mV and that's why you want to move to 88.1.

11404   And now you're telling me that in the North York area you will have enough coverage because it will be at .5mV and it will be sufficient.

11405   MR. HAHN: In Scarborough we also have the issue of interference which is not nearly as severe on 88.1 and that is the big improvement that we will get with the change in frequency, is the reduction in interference.

11406   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I mean there is no doubt you will get Scarborough, but you are giving up the North York Finch-Sheppard corridor area that I thought would be an audience for your station as well.

11407   MR. GORDON: Commissioner, let me say something. 88.1 previously we had a lot of Black programming. As Mr. Blythe said earlier, it was known as a Black station in Toronto and those years that you're talking about, they were well served by 88.1.

11408   Now, if you're looking at this map, I think this map is not -- would not be correct, because 88.1 previously, even with low wattage, served these areas very well, and the only giving up that we would be doing is to give up a little bit in the northwest to gain a lot more in areas like Scarborough.

11409   So the areas that you are talking about, Finch and Sheppard, previously CKLN was very well served in that area.

11410   THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm just looking at your contour maps that were signed by an engineer.

11411   MR. BLYTHE: If I may, Commissioner, I think the issue for us, the key word is interference-free.

11412   The contour maps that you are looking at show the 3mV and the 5mV, and, yes, 88.1 3mV tends to skew to the northeast. However, the signal is so interference-free as opposed to the 98.7 frequency that it will still be able to reach under the 5mV the audience as it depicts, which includes all of North York all the way up into Richmond Hill.

11413   So whereas 98.7 might have a stronger 3mV reading on this current map, it was subject, as always, to interference because it's a second adjacency. And also, by skewing it to the east we are now giving a much larger population that is now going to have an interference-free signal in the east.

11414   So we don't anticipate any loss at all from our North York or those listening in the core of the GTA. And as Mr. Gordon said, as it was before, the much lower-powered signal, it was already reaching those areas.

11415   THE CHAIRPERSON: Like I said, I'm not an engineer, but when I look at your .5mV contour for your current frequency, you cover all of Scarborough. It may be spotty in some areas, but you cover all of Scarborough.

11416   What the 88.1 will give you is everything all the way to Oshawa, and maybe that's what you're looking for, is Ajax, Pickering, Whitby, Oshawa area, but at the .5mV you have all of Scarborough.

11417   MR. BLYTHE: With interference. With interference. That's the key. The key difference there is with interference.

11418   I travel to Scarborough at least three times a week and as soon as I cross Canada Road the signal starts to deteriorate until -- when I get to Neilson and Tapscott it's completely gone.

11419   So yes, it's within our contour and we know that technically the contour maps only are best quesstimates. Like best results are really actually what happens and the experience of listeners in those areas has demonstrated that the signal is receiving lots of interference in those areas.

11420   So it might look like we have it on the map, but really we don't have it in actuality in terms of not receiving interference.

11421   THE CHAIRPERSON: Once you get to Neilson you have left Scarborough, you are already into Pickering.

11422   MR. BLYTHE: The line goes all the way out to -- I think it's all the way out to Kingston Road and Port Union.

11423   MR. GORDON: Yes.

11424   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Those are my questions.

11425   MR. GORDON: Let me add to you, Commissioner, that if the signal was not a good one you would not have had 20-plus applicants for it.

11426   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies...?

11427   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I just want to follow up on a couple points because we do have to -- one of the arguments we need to hear is economic need and it's difficult for you because you have only been on the air for so long.

11428   But my understanding is that you are doing okay in terms of building an audience. Is that correct? Are you happy with -- we have talked about some of the challenges, but are you happy with the audience you are building right now?

11429   I don't expect you to divulge any numbers in terms of what might be confidential information, but are you comfortable that from what I understand people seem to so far like what you're doing?

11430   MR. GORDON: Happy with those in the west.


11432   MR. GORDON: I'm happy with those that we are getting from the west.


11434   MR. GORDON: Yes.


11436   MR. GORDON: But I'm sad about those that we're not getting from the east.

11437   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Which helps me segue to my next point.

11438   At a certain point, and we sort of heard this little bit from one of the other applicants yesterday, Pride, in that in their case the gay population isn't always going to live within their contours, right? Like gay people will live anywhere, right?

11439   I understand that there are concentrated clusters that are key to your economic ambitions, but the audience that you're seeking to build, you will never get all of it, right, because people will move and move outside the contour.

11440   So what are you doing to help build that audience through the Web so that people can get access or even people in Calgary might be able to listen to it or something like that? Because it is a fairly unique, attractive sound and, you know, some of us even who aren't from the Caribbean like cricket.

11441   MR. GORDON: You do like cricket?


11443   MR. GORDON: Wow!

11444   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes, I TiVo'd Garry Sobers --

--- Laughter

11445   MR. GORDON: You have hit me for six right now.

11446   Yes, the Net is very important to us. In fact, let me say, the first four days of operating we had 108,000 listeners. The first four days, we broke a record. We are promoting the Net a lot. Our Communications Director Aisha will talk a little more to that.

11447   MS THOMAS: Thank you, Mr. Gordon, and good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.

11448   As Mr. Gordon said, we have marketed our Web in all of our efforts in our launch campaign which featured transit shelter ads across the 905 region and subway ads all across the City of Toronto. Our Web address is prominently located on all of that advertising.

11449   It is promoted heavily on-air largely to help listeners who can't tap into the station in their places of work or places of home to connect with us online.

11450   As MC Bonde said during his remarks, in terms of an international reach the station is reaching people all over the globe and a lot of this is through our social media interaction.

11451   The way that our listeners are spreading the word about the station listeners all over the world are connecting from different time zones, tuning in for our specialty programming in particular on the weekends.

11452   We had to increase our bandwidth within four weeks of launching because we couldn't manage the number of concurrent listeners. So it did demonstrate the demand for our station in terms of our online capacity.

11453   The challenge of course is not being able to monetize that from the standpoint of ratings. So while it is a very important part of our strategy, it doesn't address the economic limitations of the signal.

11454   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Right, which was my next question and last question, was that you haven't been able to monetize that online listing in any significant way yet?

11455   MR. GORDON: No. You see, the online listeners are -- our potential audience is online. Our target audience is within the GTA. So the people who are driving of course to Scarborough back and forth or people at work -- a lot of people now cannot listen at work.

11456   In fact, when we get online we get people even from Ottawa who listen to us and participate in our talk shows -- from Ghana, Accra, Ghana, from several islands in the Caribbean, from the U.S.A., from Calgary, but they are potential listeners, they are not the targeted listeners.

11457   The ones that we target are right here in the GTA. They drive in from, you know, their home to work and back and forth daily, and once they cross a certain line towards the east they can't get the station anymore. They go home, Commissioner, and try to continue to listen to a talk show and they can't get it.

11458   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes, I got that. Thank you very much.

11459   MR. GORDON: You're welcome.

11460   THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

11461   Thank you very much for your appearance here.

11462   Madam Secretary, we will take a 15-minute break.

11463   THE SECRETARY: Can we take a short break?


11465   THE SECRETARY: Ten minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1634

--- Upon resuming at 1653

11466   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, let's begin.

11467   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11468   Just for the record, before we start, I would like to indicate that Dufferin Communications, Michael Wekerle and 2308739 Ontario Inc. have filed all of their responses to undertakings, and these documents have been added to the public record and copies are available in the examination room.

11469   We have now reached Phase II, in which applicants appear to intervene on competing applications if they wish.

11470   In order to ensure the most efficient progress of the hearing, the Commission will begin hearing applicants who have indicated they are available this evening to appear in Phase II. The Commission will hear other applicants who wish to appear in Phase II tomorrow morning.

11471   The following applicants have indicated they will not be appearing in Phase II: Newcap Inc., Larche Communications, Bhupinder Bola, Stanislaus Antony (OBCI), 2308739 Ontario Inc., Trust Communications Ministries, Dufferin Communications Inc., La Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto inc., La Société Radio-Canada, and Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc.

11472   So just for the record, I will call upon Mr. Michael Wekerle (OBCI). I don't believe they are in the room today. They will get an opportunity to appear tomorrow.

11473   So we will start with Mr. Kirk, Durham Radio Inc. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record and you have 10 minutes.


11474   MR. KIRK: Thank you, Ms Roy.

11475   Acting Chair, CRTC Chair Katz, Vice-Chairman Pentefountas, Commissioners and Commission staff, good afternoon. I am Doug Kirk, President of Durham Radio.

11476   To my left and your right is Jim Moltner. Jim has appeared more times here than they have had fans of the Maple Leafs enter the Air Canada Centre this year.

11477   And to my right and your left is Andrew Forsyth, our Consultant. Andrew will run a few pictures for us as we speak.

11478   I may condense the written presentation because I know we want to move along.

11479   We would like to intervene in the following areas: on technical considerations and financial considerations.

11480   As a 44-year resident of Toronto and a broadcaster with 25 years of ownership and operating experience in the GTA and a participant in these proceedings over the last two weeks, I have one patently obvious observation and that is that there are more good proposals to serve Canada's largest market than proposed places to facilitate their transmission to Toronto. I think that's clear and I would just like to spend a bit of time addressing some possibilities, not touting our application but just try to work in some considerations that we have had.

11481   First of all, let's look at the existing frequency. We have all heard about it and this is Jim Moltner's technical brief, which is -- they are all approximately the same for 88.1.

11482   In the picture that's on the screen you'll see the 3mV, which is the smallest contour in there, covers approximately 1.3 million people. The interference-free, that's the area within the 5mV that is not crosshatched or shaded, covers 2.9 million people and the full half mV or .05mV contour covers 3.9 people.

11483   Let's be clear that this covers primarily the Toronto or, as people have referred to it, 416 area, and it provides little service to the 905 area or the surrounding area from the City of Toronto. It will serve approximately 41 percent of the total CMA market.

11484   So our approach here is that if you expect it to provide a whole lot more, expect revenue and performance beyond these contours, you will be disappointed.

11485   However, it's still not a bad place to run a radio station and the 88.1 frequency is superior to any other possibilities for Toronto. Thus, we have 22 applicants all sitting here with the best proposal to serve you and they are talking about the very last piece of Toronto real estate beachfront.

11486   It is obviously a good frequency, but you may be able to actually squeeze out some more beachfront. There are potentially five additional usable co-located second adjacent frequencies -- and I will ask Jim Moltner in a moment to talk to that -- that could be used in Toronto, not as large probably as those contours, but at least to provide some service for Toronto radio operations.

11487   Co-located second adjacent FMs really do work satisfactorily. The most notable validations have been the use of 94.5 MHz in Ottawa-Gatineau and, as you heard from IBN and Mr. Gordon, the recently licensed 98.7 in Toronto.

11488   The physics of co-located second adjacent FM works. In a major market like Toronto where there is a demonstrated shortage of FM allotments these potentially usable second adjacents would solve some coverage problems of many of the applicants and potentially allow for additional service to Toronto.

11489   We have attached on our handout an appendix documenting the five second adjacents available.

11490   And applicants that might be in a position to take advantage of these would be, say, MZ Media, who have demonstrated coverage problems in central city for their AM 740; the CBC, same with their AM 860; and potentially Ryerson Radio for a smaller coverage area.

11491   Jim Moltner, our consulting engineer, will confirm his thoughts on second adjacent FM channels that work without interfering with each other.

11492   Jim...?

11493   MR. MOLTNER: Commissioners, Industry Canada has made concessions in the recent past to allow for successful co-located second adjacent operations. Such a solution in Toronto would allow the use of any or all of these five additional frequencies for new licences and optimize radio service in the Toronto market.

11494   MR. KIRK: Jim, could you just also clarify? I think yesterday you talked about second adjacents other than co-located second adjacents, which could potentially cause interference to each other, but a co-location eliminates the potential for that.

11495   MR. MOLTNER: Yes. I believe I made the statement that any station within the contours of a second adjacent station would cause interference. What I should have said was any non-co-located station within the contours of a second adjacent station will cause interference. I hope that's clear.

11496   MR. KIRK: Okay. Thanks, Jim.

11497   Also, I think it should be pointed out that almost forgotten in these parts is the AM band and there are very successful AM stations in Toronto. You just need to witness the development of 680 News here. Since its launch in 1993 it has grown to become Canada's largest circulated, meaning the largest audience, and reportedly largest-billing radio station in the country.

11498   FM was introduced in the '60s and '70s as a better format for music transmission and the point we want to make is that there are a few remaining AM frequencies in Toronto that would be available to serve potentially news, news/talk or spoken word type formats. Those are also set out in Appendix 1.

11499   Just to get to the last point, financial considerations.

11500   We talked in Phase I about the way the Toronto radio market is developed in terms of its revenue streaming, approximately 32 percent being national-based accounts, 39 percent agency-placed, and a lot of that money, most of that, a predominant share of that money goes to the top-rated radio stations in the market.

11501   And the local retail accounts for about 29 percent of the market. That's the real battleground for smaller-rated stations in the market.

11502   What we have done just to speed things along, we took the information that had been filed with all the applicants. There is nothing new here, we have just put it on one chart.

11503   And it shows the projected audience shares of the applicants, primarily the ones for 88.1 in the proceeding, the music-based and news-based stations versus the Toronto median, which is a 3.1 share.

11504   So you can see a number of them are under that, a few of them are close and a few of them are way above that median share. The median share is actually achieved by -- the closest station to it is an FM station, 92.5 here that was licensed 20 years ago and has a reasonably good signal in the market.

11505   So that's our view that it will be hard to use this smaller signal and achieve huge market share.

11506   And finally, to conclude, we looked at projected revenue per market share on the final slide and that's taking all the applicants, and again just dividing their projected revenue in year one and year seven by their expected market share.

11507   Currently, as you have heard, the market revenue is about $250 million or roughly $2.5 million per point. As the station is expected to be a below-median station, our view is that the revenue per share point should be below that market average revenue per share point.

11508   With that context, I think it points to certainly our expectations for a service and some of the challenges that will be faced by a new entrant in the market.

11509   Thank you for your time.

11510   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any clarification questions required? No?

11511   Thank you very much for your appearance in this phase.

11512   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

11513   Just for the record, Stanislaus Antony has not indicated they would want to appear in Phase II.

11514   Frank Torres has indicated they will be appearing tomorrow. Rock 95 has indicated they will be appearing tomorrow.

11515   I would therefore call Family FM to take place at the presentation table, please.

--- Pause


11516   MR. FREDERICKS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Members of the CRTC staff, Commissioners. Thank you for having us here again. My name is Paul Fredericks from Family FM. I am the President of the company and I have here on my right Mr. David Bray, who is our General Manager and our Music Director.

11517   Again, I would just like to speak about some general intervention, again, no one in particular.

11518   First of all, I would like to begin our intervention by saying we have great respect for our fellow applicants. They all have very interesting ideas and as you ponder your decision we would ask you to consider the following.

11519   First of all with regards to talk radio, we want to say that talk radio continues to thrive in Toronto on the AM band. For example, 680 News is one of the top stations in Canada in terms of both reach and revenue.

11520   We suggest that the best use of the last available FM frequency would be a format which benefits from the fidelity of FM.

11521   There is no measurable benefit from a technical standpoint to talk on FM. This is evidenced in part by the fact that one of the talk applicants went as far as to say that if successful they would convert a signal to mono.

11522   It is also worth noting that a purely talk format station requires larger start-up budgets rather than a music format and requires very deep pockets to make it successful. Morning shows can run over $1 million per year.

11523   Secondly, we ask that you look closely at some of the research presented. A sample size of at least 1,000 is an important component of reliable research data.

11524   Even more importantly, it is worth noting that when projecting share an independent market survey is insufficient by itself. It must be supplemented by a realistic analysis of PPM trends, performed by an expert in the day-to-day working in all aspects of BBM radio audience data. This will detail where the audience for the new station will be drawn from.

11525   We must also keep in mind the encumbered nature of the 88.1 frequency signal. When all factors are considered, it's highly unlikely that a new station would launch with anything over a 2-percent share of hours tuned for all persons 12-plus. Concurrently, all revenues associated with a share projection in excess of that might be considered to be suspect.

11526   Three, given the independent nature of a new station and the fact that the national rep shops are largely controlled by the major broadcast groups, we submit that estimated national revenue at over 15 percent of total revenues might be unrealistic. Almost 90 percent of radio revenue in Toronto is controlled by Rogers, Corus, Bell and Astral.

11527   Family FM understands the challenges of cluster selling and therefore we recognize the key to our success will be the local agency market. Family FM is one of the few of any of the applicants that can truly grow radio listening, have minimal audience financial impact on existing licensees and can bring new advertising partners to the medium.

11528   Four, given that this last available FM frequency and the demand for diversity of choice to the broadest possible listenership, we respectfully submit that simply shifting an existing station to this frequency, of using this frequency as a repeater, would not be the optimal use of this opportunity.

11529   Five, certain of the applicants have stated that the licence should go to an existing broadcaster, enabling them to expand their portfolio. In an era of corporate consolidation this marks one of the last opportunities to add a strong independent voice in the marketplace. The Family FM team is comprised of professionals with extensive broadcast and media experience. We believe they have earned the opportunity to be heard.

11530   Six, while certain of the applicants have noted a void in the marketplace for triple X, Family FM's research has demonstrated a need for a broader genre such as an eclectic mixture with proper talk content. It seems clear that families are the largest underserved group in the Toronto marketplace.

11531   Seven, we have heard a great deal about unique interactivity. Family FM is new to radio, with the most progressive social media/transmedia strategy of any applicant. This makes Family FM different, modern and forward-thinking. This will allow us to track a new audience and help to revolutionize traditional radio.

11532   Eight, we suggest that Radio Ryerson does not necessarily require a community radio licence given the fact that some schools are giving up their traditional licence to move to an online format.

11533   Secondly, Family FM offers an internship program to assist students. Family FM will incorporate a special intern program into its business plan. Deserving individuals from a variety of backgrounds will be brought on as interns. The intent is to supplement their education with real-world broadcast experience and hands-on learning.

11534   They will work in all areas of the company and be provided with training so as to broaden their knowledge base. On successful completion of their term they will be given, wherever possible, the opportunity for full-time employment.

11535   Family FM provides these opportunities as part of its commitment to help in their community in real and practical ways.

11536   Lastly, we have heard a great deal about the way in which various applicants will benefit Canadian talent. We submit that Family FM represents not only a strong commitment to Canadian talent but as well the best opportunity to serve a broad audience sector which has long been overlooked.

11537   Thank you for listening. We invite any questions you have.

11538   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for appearing in this phase.

11539   MR. FREDERICKS: You're welcome.

11540   MR. BRAY: Thank you very much.

11541   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, gentlemen.

11542   For the record, 7954689 Canada Inc. will not be appearing in Phase II.

11543   WorldBand Media, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, has indicated they will be appearing tomorrow.

11544   I would therefore invite Tosan Lee to please take place -- oh, you are there. Thank you. Take your time. When you are ready you have 10 minutes.


11545   MR. TOSAN LEE: Thank you.

11546   Mr. Chair, Commissioners, thank you again. My name is Tosan Lee.

11547   We do not intend to intervene against any specific applicant. There are quite simply many qualified applicants with legitimate arguments demonstrating a need for their respective services. We would, however, like to call attention to a few decision-making parameters that some of the other applicants may not meet.

11548   CRTC states in its article on "Cultural Diversity on Television and Radio:

"Upholding cultural diversity is one of the key goals of Canada's Broadcasting Act."

11549   The article then states:

"The CRTC is using two main approaches to ensure that Canada's diverse nature is reflected in our broadcasting system. These are: (1) programming by and for specific groups; and (2) reflecting diversity in all broadcast services."

11550   With respect to the second point the article continues:

"Representing people from diverse cultures is not just the responsibility of ethnic broadcasters. Canadians from all backgrounds and persons with disabilities should also be able to recognize themselves in mainstream TV and radio programming."

11551   We simply ask that the Commission apply these tests in analyzing the other applicants.

11552   With respect to our respected colleagues in the ethnic broadcasting space, we would assert that the underutilized digital spectrum is the ideal platform for these ethnic services.

11553   It is our experience as an ethnic television broadcaster that ethnic groups are willing to pay a premium to access these services. In fact, many of our subscribers are forced to pay $38 for basic digital cable, plus $15 for our channel. Each month our subscribers pay a minimum of $50 just to see one channel.

11554   We believe that paying a one-time fee for a digital radio receiver is well within reason for the ethnic market if and only if the right business model and language strategy is used.

11555   While the launch of digital radio services has had its problems, we believe that ethnic services are the best solution for that problem. This is not so much an intervention against ethnic applicants but actually more of an invitation to our respected colleagues to see that a better solution is around the corner.

11556   The success of digital radio requires the combined efforts of multiple radio broadcasters and I believe that ethnic broadcasters can take the lead in Toronto.

11557   Thank you for listening.

11558   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just have one clarifying question.

11559   In paragraph 3 you cite a CRTC article. Can you be more specific as to which article you are referring to?

11560   MR. TOSAN LEE: It was on the Web site, under the programming section in the CRTC Web site. I could try to find that link for you.

11561   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11562   Any other questions? No?

11563   Thank you very much.

11564   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

11565   For the record, I will simply call upon MTSD Broadcast Inc. I do not believe they are in the room today.

11566   Radio 1540 Limited, CHIN-FM. I don't think they are here either, so they will get an opportunity tomorrow. They will be appearing tomorrow.

11567   Mr. Sivakkumaran, I do not believe he's here today either.

11568   Mr. Sarabjeet Arora, not here today either.

11569   Radio Ryerson will be appearing tomorrow as well.

11570   I will now invite Mr. Michel Mathieu, 8041393 Canada Inc.

--- Pause

11571   THE SECRETARY: When you are ready, Mr. Mathieu.


11572   MR. MATHIEU: Thank you. Thank you, ma'am.

11573   MR. KUMAR: Good afternoon, Members of the CRTC and staff. My name is Kumar Nadarajah and I would ask our broadcasting consultant Mr. Mike Mathieu to present our interventions.

11574   MR. MATHIEU: Good afternoon. My name is Michel Mathieu and this is a summary of our intervention that we have already sent to the Commission.

11575   The interveners at this hearing have all proved the need for a radio station in Markham but have not proven the need for a hybrid English ethnic service. To the contrary, many interveners have proven that an ethnic predominantly South Asian station is needed in Markham.

11576   Mr. Bola's high projections are more than questionable. Mr. Bola's ethnic programming will be all brokered. Mr. Kumar proposes to be 100 percent locally produced by the station.

11577   Please allow me to clarify a question you asked us yesterday. When we are going to do local programming it's going to be to the local South Asian people of Markham, pertaining to Markham and not to activities outside of Canada or things like that. We are going to give them the news but news that they need.

11578   Even Mr. Bola recognizes that the Markham station should be multicultural. Why relinquish the multicultural programming to evenings and weekends?

11579   As well as many interveners, the Commission is also concerned with Mr. Bola's Category B or Category 2 television licence. The question is why 28 licenses? Given Mr. Bola's answer, one could understand one or two, but not 28.

11580   We question: Does Mr. Bola have the means to put the station on the air and maintain it on the air? Answer: Mr. Kumar does. The proof is the SCMO. We have just filed with the Commission a situation that was asked of us yesterday about our SCMO revenues.

11581   As for Mr. Bola's proposal of using an FM frequency that would jeopardize the future of CJVF-FM, being low power, until such time as somebody can come up with an engineering brief found technically acceptable by Industry Canada that would duplicate the existing coverage of CJVF-FM, our statement is and stays that there are no frequencies available to replace 105.9 FM for CJVF.

11582   Some person identified some FM frequencies here today. Well, they may be very fine for downtown Toronto, being co-located with other stations, either on First Canadian Place or the CN Tower, but you cannot co-locate with an existing station in Scarborough or Markham. There is no FM station there, except of course the low-power in Scarborough.

11583   The Commission issued a valid licence to CJVF, valid until August 31, 2018, CRTC decision 2011-756. CJVF is committed to contributing $17,000 in Canadian Content Development for the first period of its licence.

11584   To the Brampton application, there is at least another AM daytime frequency that could be used by this applicant and free 1190 to be used from our Markham site. For us, 1190 is important for a future project because it is easy to diplex with our proposed operation this morning.

11585   There were other AM frequencies that were identified at this hearing. Great if they exist. We know of one that would work in Brampton. Given another intervention at this hearing, the question is does Brampton need this new station?

11586   Our concern is CRTC Public Notice 2000-13, January 28, 2000, the Community Radio Policy. Paragraph 21 states that:

"A community radio station is owned and controlled by a not-for-profit organization, the structure of which provides for membership, management, operation and programming primarily by members, to be controlled primarily by members of the community at large."

11587   This definitely does not appear to be the case in Application 2011-1623-6.

11588   In closing, I think with the people that were here yesterday the Commission will note that we have the support of the community and we thank you for this occasion.

11589   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11590   Any questions, clarifications?

11591   Thank you very much.

11592   MR. KUMAR: Thank you, Commissioners.

11593   MR. MATHIEU: Thank you very much.

11594   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Mathieu and Mr. Kumar.

11595   MR. KUMAR: Thank you, ma'am.

11596   THE SECRETARY: MZ Media, for the record, has indicated they will be appearing tomorrow. So this would conclude the presentations for today.

11597   We will continue with the rest of Phase II tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

11598   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1723, to resume on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 at 0900


Benjamin LaFrance

Jean Desaulniers

Karen Paré

Sue Villeneuve

Monique Mahoney

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