ARCHIVED - Transcript, Hearing 9 February 2012

Volume 4, 9 February 2012

TRANSCRIPTION OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

SUBJECT:

To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2011-694 and 2011-694-1

HELD AT:

Plaza 1-2

The Coast Plaza Hotel & Conference Centre

1316-33rd Street N. E.

Calgary, Alberta

9 February 2012

Transcription

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Transcription

To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2011-694 and 2011-694-1

BEFORE:

ALSO PRESENT:

Plaza 1-2

The Coast Plaza Hotel & Conference Centre

1316-33rd Street N. E.

Calgary, Alberta

9 February 2012

- iv -

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE / PARA

APPEARING ITEMS

PHASE III

INTERVENTIONS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

APPEARING INDIVIDUALLY

PHASE IV

REPLIES

APPEARING INDIVIDUALLY

- vi -

UNDERTAKINGS

PAGE / PARA

Calgary, Alberta

--- Upon commencing on Thursday, February 9, 2012 at 0905

5433   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5434   Ms Ventura...?

5435   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5436   We will now proceed with Paramjit Bath, Surinder Rehill and Drug Awareness Foundation Calgary, who are appearing as a panel to present their interventions.

5437   We will being with Paramjit Bath.

5438   Mr. Bath, you have five minutes for your presentation.

5439   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5440   MR. BATH: Good morning, Mr. Chair and the Commissioners.

5441   My name is Paramjit Bath and I am by profession an engineer and an author. I am honoured to speak here in support of Unison Media's application for 95.3 FM frequency.

5442   As you know, there are many radio stations currently operating in Calgary. Why am I supporting Unison Media? There are many reasons for my support.

5443   Unison Media has been running radio SurSangam for more than 10 years in Calgary and they have been serving citizen of Calgary proudly.

5444   They have a proven track record and experience in running a good side band radio.

5445   They have an excellent pool of talent serving Calgary Citizens with their knowledge and skills.

5446   Over the years, they have proven that their main responsibility is to support and encourage new talent in the community.

5447   I have experienced their support personally. A couple of years ago, I wrote a self help book called "Chardikla - A Proven Success Secret". At that time I didn't know any of the Radio SurSangam members. Nonetheless, I went to their office and asked them to help me promote my book. They asked me how many books have I written before? I told them this is the first one, but I'm planning to write many more. They offered to promote my book without charging me any fee.

5448   I then realised that they truly honoured their commitment to promote fresh talent whenever possible. They understand the hard work that goes into coming up with new projects.

5449   Their eagerness to promote my book took me by surprise because I had contacted many radio stations in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to promote my book. They all asked me the same question, "What is your promotion budget?".

5450   Some radio stations even said, "Send us your book with $500 and we will look at it.

5451   I understand everyone has to make money, but their attitude was to simply make money, whereas Radio SurSangam's attitude was to help new talent in need.

5452   Therefore, due to their support and efforts, my book received enormous publicity locally. Their support gave me encouragement to work on my next project, which is near completion and will be released soon.

5453   I personally believe what we earn is not important, but the image we create for ourselves in the community is vital and this is where Radio SurSangam excels. They help people realize their dreams. They are not concerned about what they gain in return. They definitely understand that they will reap what they sow.

5454   I also know that they have supported many charity organizations, new businesses, and other community events over the years.

5455   Radio SurSangam has always valued the diversity of communities in Calgary and have extended their support wherever it was needed. As a result, they have established a reputation of being a distinct voice.

5456   We live in a very diverse country and we need to make sure our diverse talent is given the opportunities to grow.

5457   In conclusion, I would say that Unison Media will have the best use of this new FM frequency because their core values include:

5458   Helping and promoting local talent;

5459   Serving Citizens with unbiased support;

5460   Bringing diverse communities together.

5461   Hence, I would strongly encourage the Commission's approval of their application.

5462   Thank you.

5463   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Bath.

5464   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5465   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5466   We will now proceed with Surinder Rehill.

5467   Mr. Rehill, you have five minutes for your presentation.

5468   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5469   MR. REHILL: Good morning, Mr. Chair and Commissioners.

5470   My name is Surinder Rehill and I am here to support Unison Media Inc. who has applied for obtaining license to operate a new commercial ethnic radio station.

5471   I believe that they are the most deserving candidate among all ethnic applicants. My conclusion is based upon my observations about their commitment towards educating and creating awareness in ethnic community which will enhance the integration processes into the mainstream. Being locally owned and operated, they have earned the trust of the local ethnic businesses who have invested in the growing popularity of Radio SurSangam.

5472   I will share some of my experiences with the Radio SurSangam team.

5473   During year 2008 and '10 I was Vice President of India Canada Association of Calgary, known as INCA. I have had the opportunities to work on various community programs and initiatives launched by INCA. Other than the web, we needed a medium to apprise South Asians of these programs. Accordingly, Gurinder Singh at the Radio SurSangam was contacted to see if he can assist by relating the information to their listeners.

5474   Not only did he agree to broadcast on their radio, but also suggested that he will arrange to post the information in the ethnic newspaper. It is worth mentioning that he provided these services for free.

5475   Subsequently, they took an active role in promoting and financial sponsoring of INCA's highly successful 40th anniversary celebrations. INCA's Executive Committee are in deep gratitude to Radio SurSangam.

5476   Some of the inherent beliefs of new immigrants do create challenges within their communities. Biases and misinformation are often deeply pervasive and limit the community's integration into the mainstream Canadian culture.

5477   We have come to understand that media can play a pivotal role in abating, if not eliminating, these gaps and the development of new policies and programs for Canadians.

5478   Radio SurSangam engaged the community through hosting success stories of ordinary people with extraordinary achievements. They were the first out of the starting block among the local South Asian radio stations.

5479   During June 2009, Radio SurSangam coordinated a talk show with Naseema Hurzuk, who became paraplegic in her teens due to a sporting injury. She overcame many challenges and completed her graduation. Currently, she is the president of "Helpers of the Handicapped", an organization in India that rehabilitates people with disabilities. Her accomplishments are recognized in India and abroad.

5480   The South Asian community needed to further improve in accommodating those with disabilities. Normally, there is seldom a platform where such issues are discussed in the Indian community. The objectives of the talk show were to alleviate the misconceptions and the biases about the people with disabilities. Listeners called in and shared their own experiences and ideas for ameliorating the plight of the disabled in the South Asian Community.

5481   On another note, during July 2009 they coordinated another talk show with Dr. Chandrashekhar Sankurarthi. Dr. Sankurarthi is the President of MSMF which was established in 1989 in Ottawa, a non-profit organization with the purpose of improving the quality of life for destitute and downtrodden in India through education, health care and disaster relief programs.

5482   In 1985 he lost his wife and two children in the tragic crash of Air India Flight 182.

5483   While employed as a government scientist in Ottawa, Dr. Chandra decided that he needed to "do something useful". With this aspiration, he commenced his journey to helping those less fortunate in India.

5484   Among many other award bestowed upon him, in 2009 he was featured as one among six people making Canada proud by their work. The listeners felt that he had encouraged them to actively engage in betterment of those in the greatest need.

5485   In closing, I would reiterate that there is a strong need for an ethnic radio station that would serve South Asians and other ethnic communities in Calgary. Given the opportunity, Radio Connect will be instrumental in delivering programming serving the needs of ethnic Calgarians and allowing a greater integration with the Canadian society at large.

5486   Thank you for allowing me to share some of my experiences.

5487   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5488   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Drug Awareness Foundation Calgary.

5489   Before beginning, please introduce yourself for the record, after which you have five minutes for your presentation.

5490   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5491   MR. DYAL: My name is Surinder Dyal. Good morning, Mr. Chair and Commissioners.

5492   I am President of Drug Awareness Foundation Calgary. I am a professional Geophysicist member of Association of Professional Engineers, Geologists and Geophysicists of Alberta. I own and operate a seismic data processing company called Dyal Geophysical, Incorporated.

5493   Drug Awareness Foundation, also known as DAFC, is making a difference in the community by proactively bringing awareness about the dangers of drugs, alcohol and tobacco. DAFC does it by talking about drugs on radio program every week and by conducting seminars and rallies.

5494   DAFC also did a drug awareness walk across Canada in 2011 in order to bring drug awareness message to other communities in Canada. Our aim is modest, we want to reach as many people, especially children, as possible before they get involved in drugs, alcohol and tobacco.

5495   Drug Awareness initiative, and then the Drug Awareness Foundation Calgary, was started after a tragic incident on January 1, 2006 in which my niece, Rami Dhadda, was killed by an angry drunk driver. It was difficult for the Punjabi community to comprehend such an act and the tragedy. Our community held several meetings to talk about various issues in the community and decided to do something about the dangers of drugs, alcohol and tobacco.

5496   I am here to support the application by Unison Media Inc. for an FM station. I am speaking on behalf of Drug Awareness Foundation Calgary.

5497   I am not an employee, shareholder or owner of Radio SurSangam or Unison Media Inc.

5498   I will also be talking about the continued support we are receiving from Radio SurSangam, which is owned and operated by the same principals.

5499   Radio SurSangam has helped us in many ways. Examples:

5500   by providing free air time for our weekly 2-hour drug awareness program for more than two years;

5501   guidance in refinement of our talk show;

5502   funds and manpower for our other activities like seminars;

5503   media exposure to our organization; and

5504   by serving as board member on our organization.

5505   Radio SurSangam gave us the opportunity to bring our drug awareness message with a generous two hour, weekly program free of charge. We started the weekly program in June 2008 and continued it for more than two years.

5506   The listeners of the talk show told us in their phone calls how eagerly they waited for the drug awareness program to come on every Thursday at 8 o'clock. They also told us that our program is making a difference in the community. They thanked us and Radio SurSangam for bringing the message through the radio broadcast.

5507   It was the experience of SurSangam that made this radio broadcast a success -- our program a success.

5508   We later moved the radio talk show to an FM station. The only reason for moving our drug awareness radio program from Radio SurSangam to an FM station was to reach a wider listener base.

5509   Radio SurSangam has supported us in many different ways in bringing the awareness message to our community.

5510   They have supported us and still continue to support us financially.

5511   They provided funds for hall rentals and refreshments.

5512   Radio SurSangam continues to support us as one of the advertisers on our radio talk show on FM 94.7.

5513   Radio SurSangam also helped us with personnel in hosting the drug awareness seminars. They helped in setting up the hall at the seminars.

5514   They also helped in bringing the message from the seminars to the community by recording and broadcasting it.

5515   Mr. Gurinder Singh of Radio SurSangam still serves as Secretary of DAFC.

5516   Indian community listens to radio SurSangam for wholesome and informative radio programming.

5517   Radio SurSangam's ability to reach wider audiences is limited by the frequency band of the radio station. In my opinion, it would be beneficial for the community and organizations such as DAFC if Unison Media is given the opportunity to broadcast on FM to wider listener base.

5518   They do have the experience that they have proven with their help when we were doing the talk show.

5519   They are a local company that knows about the needs of the local community and they have been very supportive of the local programs.

5520   Thank you for your time and consideration.

5521   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dyal. Thank you for your presentation. Thank you for the work you do in the community.

5522   MR. DYAL: Thank you.

5523   THE CHAIRPERSON: We are very sorry for your loss and the tragic passing of your niece. We thank you very much.

5524   MR. DYAL: Thank you.

5525   THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if there are any Commissioners that may have any questions.

5526   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I have one.

5527   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies...?

5528   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Mr. Bath, I guess it's maybe not an easy answer, but you made reference to how Radio SurSangam helps people realize their dreams in that sense and I was wondering if you had any insights into what those dreams are for people in Calgary in particular and why Radio SurSangam is uniquely qualified to be in touch with those.

5529   MR. BATH: Thank you. Thank you for asking that question.

5530   I can speak for myself. I'm sure everyone has dreams, one of mine is to be the best-selling author before I die, okay. And after their support I continuously talked to them about their help whenever I see them.

5531   They have given me the opportunities to be a guest speaker on their show where we go and discuss multi-personal development topics. Some of them are anger management, time management, how to control your thoughts and mind, how to increase your productivity, how to change your habits, to just name a few.

5532   So I have received personal calls from people asking me, "What book should I read now? Can you help me here? Can you help me there?"

5533   That's where I think Radio SurSangam is encouraging the community and the youth in the community to do something important with their life other than the regular 8:00 to 5:00 work.

5534   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.

5535   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you.

5536   Madam Ventura...?

5537   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5538   I would now invite Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary, Canadian Mexican Chamber of Business and Calgary Region Immigrant Employment Council who are appearing as a panel to present their interventions to come forward.

--- Pause

5539   THE SECRETARY: We will begin with Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary.

5540   Please introduce yourself and you will then have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5541   MR. LAMBERT: I appreciate that.

5542   A very good morning to you, team. My name is Tony Lambert and I am the president of Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary.

5543   Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary has approximately 60 paying members made up of African and Caribbean descent individuals. We have a broad base of individuals that make up our team.

5544   I am also a board member of the Ethno-Cultural Council of Calgary.

5545   Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary -- the short form is ACBAC -- what we do is we represent kids in schools that are having problems. As a matter of fact, yesterday, I spent all day with the parole officers and the correctional officers of the Bowden Institute and my takeaway from that was that there are disproportionately more African and Caribbean kids in the Institute disproportionate to the population of Calgary.

5546   We, however, have established a strong relationship with the educators, law enforcement and representatives of the public and other families.

5547   The Afro-Caribbean community in Calgary is very diverse and a growing one. As I noted in my brief, the 2006 Calgary Census showed 10,000 people with origins in the Caribbean and a further 18,000 with origins in Africa. And there is also a small but active community of African Americans and African Canadians in Calgary. This was based on the 2006 Census and we believe that there has been a significant growth in the intervening five years.

5548   We were astonished when we actually had a chance to review the many applicants for the new FM radio station in Calgary and we realized that there is only one applicant who proposes to offer service to the African and Caribbean community. We believe that this is in part due to the relative newness of our community in Calgary and the fact that we are such a diverse group that has a very large background and different languages.

5549   I myself have origins in Guyana in the West Indies and we speak English. For example, Jamaica also has a wide range of ethnic groups and ethnic mix but the commonality is the language.

5550   In Stats Canada, for 2006 the data shows that over 30 different African languages are spoken in this city, but none of the communities are much over 2,000 people. So perhaps some of the other applicants looked at the 2,150 Ethiopian speakers and said we can't make a go of them or they made the same judgment against the 4,195 Jamaicans and said their group is not large enough. But together, as Africans and Caribbeans, we make a significant group.

5551   In this case, they have missed out on the fact that every city in Canada -- in our community we work together to face the common problems and the challenges and to celebrate our cultures. Rather, our community must work together to address these common issues.

5552   In almost every city in Canada which provides programming to those with a background in African or in Caribbean languages, the service is provided through programming that aims to serve a wide community. For example, G98.7 FM in Toronto actually provides a wide range of different music programming but not specific programming to various groups. This approach allows them to meet the commonality of the different groups. It also means that they have a larger audience to sell to their merchants.

5553   When Mosaic FM made a presentation to the Ethno-Cultural Council of Calgary, we were impressed by the strong emphasis on the commodities that they have put forward. The approach that Mosaic has actually taken is to bring our communities together in probably the only particular way to provide meaningful services.

5554   Within our organization English is the language we use to communicate. Mosaic does face a dilemma, however. Despite our common interests and experience, our backgrounds are very different. While English is the common language, there are recent arrivals from Africa where English is not the colonial language. We present this concern to Mosaic FM.

5555   THE SECRETARY: I'm sorry to interrupt but if you could please conclude your presentation. Thank you.

5556   MR. LAMBERT: Okay. Thank you.

5557   And lastly, I would like to say that Action Committee for Black Affairs as well as the members of the Ethno-Cultural Council of Calgary were very impressed in their cross-cultural programming and we're particularly interested in the youth program since they feel quite isolated in our community.

5558   Thank you very much.

5559   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir.

5560   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5561   We will now proceed with the Canada-Mexico Chamber of Business.

5562   Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5563   MS KANTER: Buenos dias. My name is Laura Kanter. I'm the Vice-President of the Canada-Mexico Chamber of Business.

5564   Good morning, Mr. Chair, CRTC Commissioners and staff and fellow residents of Calgary. It is my pleasure to be here today to support the application by Alberta Mosaic Radio Broadcasting, or Mosaic FM. I am here today to speak on behalf of all the members of the Chamber and the entire Mexican-Canadian community. I know my views are reflective of the larger Latino community in general.

5565   The Canada-Mexico Chamber was founded by a group of business people and professionals, primarily in Calgary, in 2003. Our original goal was the development of the greater cultural and business ties between our home country of Mexico and our chosen new country of Canada.

5566   But as our community grew -- we estimate that there are now about 8,000 Mexican-Canadians in Calgary -- we also realized that we needed and association that could also bring together our community to help it celebrate and share its history and culture.

5567   The Chamber has developed a strength, presence and participation in Canada's and Mexico's business life, motivating us to be even more committed in helping the community with their business needs and relationships.

5568   In January 2011 we were awarded the distinction of being Alberta's Business Ambassadors.

5569   And we have evolved to include an important cultural side. Last year we participated for the first time in the Stampede Parade and we were awarded first prize. We provided the "Best of Mexico Expo" celebration with a diverse display of Mexican and Canadian businesses, music, folklore, arts and crafts and so much more. We want to continue to do this show but we need media exposure to increase our attendance.

5570   There are many other Latinos in our community. The Colombian community, whose representative association, Los Amigos Colombianos, estimates their community to be about 7,500 people. The very active Venezuelan Association estimates it has more than 500 families in Calgary.

5571   Now, there is a typo in this next sentence. Statistics Canada's 2006 Census estimated the Latino community to be just under 23,000 people, and we know that this was a shortfall given the large number of migrant workers, students and landed immigrants. We estimate that the Latino population in Calgary tops 45,000 people. Stats Canada indicated in 2006 that we are the second fastest-growing group in the City of Calgary.

5572   Alex Pinzon provides six hours of programming a week on the existing ethnic station and we thank Fairchild Radio and Alex for this. His program has become an important element in our community. He covers and promotes our events, advertises our businesses, interviews people from all the communities and from all age groups, and especially, he plays the music that remind us of our heritage.

5573   I am also a businessperson here in Calgary and I purchase airtime on Alex's program, but I'm very frustrated in getting my message out to a wider audience. I provide a line of nutritional products that help people lose weight effectively and maintain a balanced and healthy life. My product is definitely not a Latino product only, but I can only buy time on Alex's program. The English stations are much too expensive and don't reach the audiences that I want effectively. The idea of one station that could provide me access to multiple communities in multiple languages is a very interesting one and I can't wait to explore it.

5574   As a final note, I also like the idea of the cross-cultural programming in English for both women and youth.

5575   In general, women in our communities have a harder time of it than men, and I would guess that this is so for all communities. Particularly among the less-educated women, the opportunity to exchange with people who are not Spanish-speaking is more limited. Isolation in the home is an issue for many women, and knowing that they can hear women from their own culture and others share their issues with each other and learn from the professional supports would be worthwhile.

5576   And our youth need it even more. They often carry the burden of being our hope to keep our culture but also our hope that they succeed in Canada. They also could use a place to vent and discuss issues so that they can learn that together they are the new mainstream.

5577   Thanks for this opportunity to present my support to you. I truly believe that the Latino communities have a greater need of more hours of programming in our language than does the mainstream community another couple of pop or rock stations in the English language.

5578   I would be pleased to reply to any questions that you might have.

5579   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam Kanter.

5580   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Calgary Region Immigrant Employment Council.

5581   Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5582   MR. RANDALL: Thank you very much to the Chair and to the Commissioners and to the staff. My name is Bruce Randall. I'm the Executive Director of the Calgary Region Immigrant Employment Council.

5583   I've come to this sector, which is a very exciting sector, working with highly trained immigrants, a little bit later in life. I had a bit of a mid-life epiphany and after a long career in law I had realized that this is the spot to be in. Listening to the great people this morning, that certainly confirms that I'm here in the right place.

5584   We are here in support of the Alberta Mosaic Radio application for an FM station as we feel that we share many of the same senses of vision as well as tools. I would like to talk about three of those particular tools.

5585   One is place and voice and we think that radio has that ability to provide both place and voice. I don't think it's coincidental that we're here in this particular hotel, a hop, skip and a jump away from the Ethno-Cultural Council of Calgary, from the Centre for Newcomers, not far from the C-Train that can take us to DeVry, SAIT and Bow Valley College and many of the other immigrant-serving agencies that provide that particular leg up.

5586   Not far from here the Genesis Centre has been opened and it is a spot for community gathering. And one of the most important places is a series of rooms called "A Thousand Voices," and we think that's exactly what radio is and exactly what Mosaic can provide.

5587   So we're very confident that through Mosaic and the power of radio we can engage in conversation, confirmation and information for those that we work with. So my organization attempts to connect internationally trained professionals with Calgary employers in a series of meeting places, including mentoring programs as well as employment opportunities. So the tool of place and voice is very important for the work that we seek to do.

5588   The second tool and vision I think that we share is what we would call cross-cultural cooperation, and much of the work that we do means bringing together various ethno-specific communities in a sense of sharing of best practices and sharing of success stories.

5589   In speaking with the principals of Mosaic, we had a sense that this is exactly the kind of programming that they're looking to present to the community as well.

5590   And the third tool we call collaboration and support, and that's the support from both without and within the organization -- and without the organization meaning those of us in the support sector. And it's very important that we have an opportunity to, again, share success stories and to get the messages across that we think will provide, in particular the people that we work with, the internationally trained professional, with that leg up on their particular career.

5591   So we're very confident in speaking with the Mosaic team that it's a shared vision and shared tools. So we're very excited about that.

5592   Then at the very end, the end result or the end game, I think, for all of us is to continue that mosaic-building, and mosaic-building is not a cliché, we think, in this case, but we think it's a true reality. So we're very excited about such a possibility of a radio station coming on board that will provide all of us in this support sector with a very exciting tool.

5593   I thank you very much.

5594   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5595   Do my colleagues have any questions?

5596   Madam Cugini.

5597   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you very much, and thank you all for being here this morning.

5598   Mr. Lambert, just a couple of questions for you, first off.

5599   MR. LAMBERT: Absolutely.

5600   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you any relationship with the mainstream media here in Canada to get the message out of the work of your Action Committee for Black Affairs Calgary?

5601   MR. LAMBERT: Actually, no. We don't have any connection with the mainstream media. What we do is we do it through word of mouth.

5602   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Have you approached them at any point in time to get on one of their talk shows?

5603   MR. LAMBERT: I would love the opportunity to do that, but no, we haven't so far and it's something that we're actually working on.

5604   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. What are your expectations of the nine hours of programming as proposed by the applicant?

5605   MR. LAMBERT: My expectation is that we would have a dialogue to try and showcase the different issues that we're having in the African and the Caribbean community and also to showcase resources that are available to newcomers and the Canadians that are already here that don't know about a lot of things that are offered in the City of Calgary.

5606   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you.

5607   I've just drawn a blank. Miss Kanter. I'm sorry, I just drew a blank on your name.

5608   In my former life I worked a lot with Spanish-language media --

5609   MS KANTER: Okay.

5610   COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  -- and one of the things that was repeated to us almost every day, there are 23 countries that speak Spanish, we're not all the same, the only thing we have in common is our language, don't treat us all the same.

5611   MS KANTER: That's right.

5612   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: What assurances do you have that this applicant in their 16 hours of programming in Spanish will represent all of the Spanish-speaking communities in this city?

5613   MS KANTER: Well, the one thing that unites us all, the people from Latino America and Hispano America, like Spanish people, is the language, as you say, and one factor that is interesting is in Calgary -- and I don't know, maybe it changed now in Alberta, but a few years ago there wasn't -- this is the only city that has immersion Spanish schools.

5614   And the need is -- when you're looking at the number of people going to those schools -- nine schools immersion in Spanish, public schools and Catholic schools -- 70 to 90 percent of the students are not Mexican or Latino, it's people from Canada who are interested in the Spanish language.

5615   So we need really to have a voice to showcase the interests of culture, of history of music that is already there. We just need to have a place where we can have more time to showcase our culture.

5616   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you very much.

5617   MS KANTER: Thank you.

5618   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Those are all my questions.

5619   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies.

5620   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: This is slightly repetitive but I just wanted to clarify, Mr. Lambert.

5621   Similar to my colleague, I understand the role of ethnic radio for the Afro-Caribbean community and for third language, you know, whether it's people from Haiti or Barbadian or something like that. What I'm confused by, though, is that -- I just want to clarify -- there is currently no programming in Calgary where people can share the Black experience as opposed to the immigrant third language.

5622   MR. LAMBERT: There is actually one at the University of Calgary radio stations, but it's the only one that there is right now.

5623   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Nothing in commercial radio?

5624   MR. LAMBERT: No.

5625   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Thanks.

5626   MR. LAMBERT: Okay.

5627   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.

5628   THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lambert, did I understand correctly, you're at 60 paid members in your Association?

5629   MR. LAMBERT: Yes, approximately.

5630   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

5631   MR. LAMBERT: Yes.

5632   THE CHAIRPERSON: And, Senora Kanter, did you mention that the population in Calgary, the Latino population tops 45,000?

5633   MS KANTER: Yes.

5634   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Because in your text it mentions 30,000.

5635   MS KANTER: Yes. That was a typo. There's two typos there.

5636   THE CHAIRPERSON: No problem.

5637   MS KANTER: I brought the copy that was not corrected. And the first one is 23,000.

5638   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

5639   MS KANTER: And then in the same sentence it's 45,000.

5640   THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you.

5641   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Mr. Lambert --

5642   MR. LAMBERT: Yes.

5643   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  -- we have heard a lot from the commercial stations about their revelation, that it will be a success, in becoming a lot more interactive with their audience and not so much so with the ethnic applications.

5644   I was impressed with your own interaction, with your organization with the school system. Is it your hope to see the applicant you're endorsing be similarly interactive in going beyond the studios and into the schools, if possible?

5645   MR. LAMBERT: My hope for Mosaic FM is that we can have a dialogue, a forum where we can voice our issues that are common to Africans and Caribbeans in Calgary so we can talk about the things that affect us and where we have success. That's my goal.

5646   As I mentioned earlier, I spent most of the day speaking to the warden of the Bowden Institute and one of the questions that I did ask was: Most of the African and Caribbean kids there, are they newcomers and they don't understand the system and that's where they end up?

5647   And she said to me: No, a lot of them are Canadians, second and third generation, that don't understand that a lot of things are out there where they can go and get, you know, a variety of resources.

5648   And this is one of the things that I'm hoping that we're able to do with Mosaic FM.

5649   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you very much.

5650   I have one more question of Miss Kanter, but thank you very much, Mr. Lambert. I'm impressed by your commitment.

5651   MR. LAMBERT: Thank you.

5652   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Ms Kanter, you made a point in your presentation about one of the values of ethnic radio is its ability, at least from your perspective to your Latino group, cultural group, that it helps with women. You specifically said women who find themselves isolated in the home.

5653   I was wondering if you could tell me why you have chosen that segment specifically. Is it more problematic and why? And would that same theory not apply to older generational individuals who are no longer in the workforce, but have reunified with their sons and daughters?

5654   Would that same situation apply?

5655   MS KANTER: That comes from my honest pains when I came to Canada 25 years ago. I was the only one in my family that didn't speak English at all. So I was panicking even to answer the phones or to knock at the door.

5656   So it was really a bad feeling that I had, and after I went to school and learned English, I tried to help people that were in the same situation.

5657   So I see a lot -- I have been working with an agency, interpreting and translating to people, especially the wives of temporary workers who are here. Their husbands are working, but they stay at home with their families, and they are not -- they don't have any language.

5658   So I help them to go to school or to go to a hospital, to the doctor's, or even women who are pregnant and they cannot have any help.

5659   So I think it's the need of having -- we lost the family. That is very strong in Mexico. In our communities we are very close families, and when you are here with no family, no relatives, no friends, and nobody at all, and no guidance of what to do and what not to do, it's really -- it's a relax to have a voice in the radio that you can have answers in that matter.

5660   So, really, that's what I'm hoping for this.

5661   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you very much.

5662   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much, and good day to you all.

5663   Madam Secretary...

5664   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5665   I would now invite the Romanian Canadian Cultural Association of Calgary, the Calgary Multicultural Centre, and Dr. Amandeep Taggar to come forward.

5666   Thank you.

--- Pause

5667   THE SECRETARY: We will begin with the Romanian Canadian Cultural Association of Calgary.

5668   Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5669   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5670   MS SERBAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Bonjour, mesdames et monsieurs. My name is Maria Serban -- Sierra-Echo-Romeo-Bravo-Alpha-November. That is the spelling of my last name.

5671   I do not have a written speech. I am petrified.

--- Laughter

5672   MS SERBAN: I look at your family names there and I realize that I shouldn't be, because one is Italian, one sounds Hungarian, another one sounds Greek, another one sounds like it's from the island, and another Italian one.

5673   So I should not be petrified, but I still am.

5674   Together with my husband and two small daughters, I came to Canada about ten years ago. It has been a decade this year. We landed curiously upon Toronto, and wanted to take it by storm.

5675   Like many others before us, like many others after us, we came in search of something that -- we had no idea what it was, but we left the old country because the system, and Europe in general, did not jibe with our idea of values and a community of real diversity. There were so many conflicts that pulled us apart, and we didn't want that for our children.

5676   In all of our endeavours throughout our lives, both my husband and I, and the children, who are now 21 and 16, were looking for real diversity. That is why I am here in support of Multicultural Broadcasting, or Red FM, because it's not called ethnic, because it's called Multicultural, and it reflects through its name what Canada wants to be, and it is.

5677   We were not looking for a melting pot, we were looking for a multicultural place. We were looking for institutions to help us become Canadian.

5678   In 2007, when I finally decided that I wanted to be Canadian, and that I wanted, when I went abroad and people asked me, "Where are you from?" -- I wanted to say, "I'm from Canada, but I was born, raised and educated in Romania, and I am very proud of both."

5679   I applied, and I made a huge mistake. The judge handed the certificate to me and said, "So, where are you from?" And instead of "From Romania", I said, I am Romanian. And he looked at me and said, "Uh-uh, you are Canadian now. You were born in Romania, but you are Canadian."

5680   What I am trying to say is that Red FM, like many other radio stations, approached the Romanian Canadian Cultural Association of Calgary to get our support, but none of them, with the exception of Red FM, gave us the impression -- and the strong impression -- that as immigrants, first, second, third, fourth generation, we could feel honoured to be in Canada and build this from a notion to a nation, which is what we are here to do.

5681   At home, in the streets, we don't see colour, we don't see race, we don't see religion, we see people. Through radio, I see a tool that can help us help each other, uphold what Canada stands for, and I think that Red FM can do that.

5682   I would like, in one, two, three generations from now, that the people who come here at that time as new immigrants have the possibility to be told that the symbols of Canada have not changed, are still the same.

5683   To wake up in the morning, like I did this morning, I said my prayer, I sang the Canadian anthem, and I glanced at the Romanian flag sitting by my bed. And that's it.

5684   And I think that Red FM can do that.

5685   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5686   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5687   We will now proceed with the Calgary Multicultural Centre. Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5688   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5689   MS NEWMAN: Thank you.

5690   Good morning, fellow Canadians. My name is Anoush Newman, and I am the Executive Director at the Calgary Multicultural Centre, otherwise known as The Centre or CMC.

5691   Also, I am the President of the Armenian Cultural Association, not Romanian.

5692   I am here today to present our support for Red FM Radio's application to broadcast its programs in Calgary. We believe that a radio station program such as proposed by Red FM will benefit our community, with its very ethnically diverse population.

5693   First of all, let me give you a brief history of our centre. In 1977, several community members, including our former premier, Mr. Ralph Klein, got together and registered this society, or The Centre, the first immigrant-serving agency in Calgary. The purpose was to act as the umbrella organization to address the needs of the growing ethnocultural communities in Calgary, regardless of their country of origin.

5694   Our role has included providing space to different ethnocultural groups to hold their meetings, events, language schools, along with providing information and resources, such as community leadership training sessions, to board governance.

5695   All of these activities are in accordance with our mission and mandate.

5696   The Centre's mandate is to promote cultural diversity and the benefits of multicultural society. Hence, our programs and services encompass the following three activities: educate, advocate, and connect.

5697   Through our programs and services, we bridge the gaps between ethnocultural communities and the mainstream, create opportunities for intercultural dialogue, advocate for a speedy integration of new Canadians, and reduce barriers to equitable access to resources and benefits.

5698   Our aim is also to improve the image of immigrants and diminish stereotyping, thus creating a community that appreciates the contributions of all its members.

5699   As the saying goes, we are stronger together.

5700   Our centre partners with local organizations to reach more community members. These collaborations have created a large network of contacts for us. Currently we have over 10,000 contacts.

5701   As you are aware, changes in the Immigration Act in the mid-seventies led to a tremendous increase of immigrants to Canada from non-European sources, and Calgary was recognized as the fourth popular destination of newcomers to Canada.

5702   Currently, 24 percent of the Calgary population is made up of immigrants.

5703   Also, Alberta's economy has played a major role in attracting many new Canadians, who came to our city seeking employment. We saw an increase in the number of immigrants from South and Southeast Asia, Africa and South America.

5704   Interestingly, the majority of these immigrants struggle with English-language proficiency and rely heavily on family and community networks to learn about local programs and access to services.

5705   This increase in population led to an increased need to augment and expand our social infrastructure, leading to importing more qualified and permanent and temporary workers.

5706   Several industries had to seek out qualified workers to address the demand in our social systems. One example is the health sector, sponsoring a large number of healthcare workers from the Philippines.

5707   Additionally, we have seen more Arabic, Bulgarian, Romanian, Korean, Kurdish, Vietnamese, Russian, Parsee-speaking immigrants. This is an upward trend that will continue for many generations to come.

5708   Our young nation needs all kinds of talent to assist with building our future, and immigrants will be the major source of our future population.

5709   All of these immigrant communities, except for the Chinese community, which has its own radio station, are in dire need of local media to keep them updated about events in their community and about what is happening in Calgary, and the world, in the language that they are most familiar with.

5710   As our communities grow, the need to communicate increases as well. We need a radio station like Red FM to disseminate information through news, broadcast local activities, and support emerging ethnocultural groups to build connections in the community.

5711   After reading the outline of Red FM's station proposal, we were very impressed with their plan. We are especially encouraged by their desire to invest in the community by developing local talent to produce ethnic shows.

5712   And they plan to provide free air to smaller ethnocultural groups who don't have the resources to sponsor the broadcast time.

5713   Red FM's station plan to provide more local coverage, along with international news, will personally impact the Calgary audience. The fact that they are planning to serve 23 ethnocultural groups and broadcast in 19 languages is an impressive goal.

5714   We believe that the Calgary Multicultural Centre can play a big role in supporting Red FM Radio. By collaborating, we will better serve our community. Through this radio station, The Centre can reach more immigrants and provide information about local resources and promote dialogue. The radio station, in return, will promote The Centre's activities.

5715   Our programs, in collaboration with various community partners, have demonstrated our mandate to promote intercultural dialogue and advocacy. We have organized large and small events that highlight cross-current issues, celebrate cultural diversity, and advocate a fair and equitable lifestyle to all Calgarians.

5716   We engage the community members in interactive debate about current issues and challenges that immigrants face.

5717   We also promote the contribution that immigrants make. Additionally --

5718   THE SECRETARY: Pardon me. You have just a few seconds left, if you could please conclude your presentation. Thank you.

5719   MS NEWMAN: Sure.

5720   We hold many events, such as art exhibitions, to promote Calgary artists, and we coordinate symposiums and public forums. We partner with large organizations.

5721   In closing, I would like to emphasize the need for a radio station such as Red FM, which is going to reach out to not only the large ethnocultural groups, but is also committed to serve and support small community groups.

5722   Our identity as a country that has been very successful with its immigration policy is recognized by the rest of the world. Unlike what is happening in many other countries that are struggling with integrating immigrants, we have demonstrated that we have built our nation on the principles of just, fair and respectful approaches. We are not only proud about our country's achievement, but we see it as our badge of honour.

5723   Thank you.

5724   THE SECRETARY: Thank you. We will now proceed with Dr. Amandeep Taggar.

5725   Dr. Taggar, you have five minutes for your presentation.

5726   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5727   DR. TAGGAR: Mr. Chair, and members of the Commission, thank you.

5728   My name is Amandeep Taggar and I am a resident physician, training to be a radiation oncologist, at the University of Calgary. I recently moved to Calgary from Vancouver, where I completed my Bachelor's and Master's and MD at UBC.

5729   I would like to apologize first, because you might find typos in the presentation. I wrote it last night, at three o'clock, after finishing a long emergency shift.

5730   I was born in Indian, and moved to Canada when I was 16. When I moved to Vancouver, I certainly struggled with finances, as well as education. This was when I met Kulwinder, in 1997.

5731   He hired me as a DJ in his company at that time, and he provided me with an opportunity to support myself financially, and also continue my education.

5732   He also helped me link up with other community networks and associations, which, at the end, provided me with a lot more resources to go to university at that time.

5733   I am actually truly grateful for the support he has provided me, and since then I have been a constant supporter and a friend of his.

5734   Therefore, that is why I am here today in support of his application for an ethnic radio station.

5735   The points I will discuss are very close to me, and they are also reflective of Kulwinder's agenda and Red FM's proposal.

5736   One is the promotion or advocacy of health issues, and two is language and culture retention.

5737   For the past eight months, since I have been in Calgary, I have actually had an opportunity to listen to many radio stations while I drive to and from work, and what I feel is that there is certainly a lack of radio stations that air programming in the South Asian community.

5738   While in Vancouver, where I used to listen to Red FM quite regularly, I did not find the same opportunity here.

5739   As an ethnic radio station, it plays a very, very instrumental role in educating ethnic communities regarding various health issues. We talk about obesity, diabetes and heart disease.

5740   Certainly, we know that these are very, very common problems among all major communities and ethnic groups, and even mainstream ethnic groups, but the incident rate of these particular diseases is quite high among South Asians especially.

5741   We always say that it could be genetic or just poor eating habits or lack of exercise, but it certainly is very, very prevalent in our community.

5742   Recent studies have shown that if we can prevent the onset of diabetes or obesity or heart disease, we can certainly prevent more critical events such as heart attack, stroke, or reduce the number of visits to Emergency Departments.

5743   However, currently there is no such medium, especially in Calgary, on the mainstream radio FM frequency that can disseminate necessary information regarding these health issues.

5744   I believe that Red FM will certainly play a pivotal role in allowing healthcare professionals such as myself and other doctors -- I am constantly in contact with quite a lot of doctors from the South Asian community, from the Pakistani community, from the Arabic community, who would like to reach out to their ethnic population and provide this information on a mass basis.

5745   This will, in turn, educate and empower these people to take ownership of their own health, and certainly reduce the number of Emergency visits and critical events.

5746   One of the things I want to highlight about what we have learned recently, especially from Alberta Health Services, is that they have launched a multicultural heart awareness campaign. This is primarily based in Edmonton. It targets, especially, the South Asian community. It is actually featured on their website right now as the main page.

5747   But could you imagine if the same campaign was available on a radio station which reaches mass populations, is more accessible and delivered in a language to its intended audience that they can understand?

5748   Certainly, the message would be more effective.

5749   Like I told you earlier, I recently moved from Vancouver, and I am very aware of what Red FM has done in contributing to the promotion of health issues. They have achieved this with weekly segments on wellness in talk shows. They have invited guests --I was a guest while I was in medical school and a Master's student in oncology -- to highlight various health issues and provide useful resources, and they sponsor a lot of health advocacy programs and campaigns.

5750   So I am not just 100 percent, I am 110 percent sure that they would continue to do the same for the citizens of Calgary and the ethnic minorities of Calgary.

5751   THE SECRETARY: Pardon me, Dr. Taggar, you have one minute remaining. Please conclude your presentation.

5752   DR. TAGGAR: Sure.

5753   The second point I want to make is about language. I will skip the quote, which is the same as they used in their proposal, but I certainly want to say that language is very important for the maturation and growth of a child, because a child gains very invaluable experience through language.

5754   Outside of my professional work, I am an activist in language, and I work with the Punjabi Language Education Association for the promotion of language. What I find is that if we can teach kids in their own language, they become better citizens. They integrate better because they understand the culture and the values not only of their own culture, but also Canadian life itself.

5755   They can communicate with their grandparents and family members who can't speak English, or have a limited grasp, they can understand cultural values, they can understand songs and music better, and it certainly enhances their experience.

5756   What does it mean for somebody who is learning this language? Of course, a closer connection to the culture, as well as personal enrichment.

5757   Red FM will play a very crucial role in the promotion and retention of the culture, at least among the ethnic youth of Calgary. This is certainly by music, by talk shows, by talent shows -- and this is exemplified, again, in their Vancouver programming, where they have discussed language and issues around language. They have sponsored cultural shows. They have sponsored essay-reading competitions. They have sponsored letter-writing competitions -- all in the promotion of language.

5758   And not only that, they have also, actually, sponsored an education program in the summer for students who want to learn the Punjabi language.

5759   Certainly, I believe that they will do the same programs in Calgary, in the promotion of language.

5760   In conclusion, these two issues, which are very close to me, I feel that Red FM reflects them in their proposal. I believe that Kulwinder himself actually believes in those same core values and issues, and that he will provide the same services to us in Calgary. I intend to live in Calgary during my residency and probably practise in Calgary as a physician after.

5761   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. Taggar. We appreciate your message of cultural integration and good health.

5762   Madam Newman, we appreciate your efforts to, as you say, educate, advocate and connect.

5763   And Madam Serban, that was a very moving témoignage as to the Canadian experience. I don't think that you have to convince any of the panellists that we are the luckiest people in the world by the mere fact that we live in this great country.

5764   So thank you very much.

5765   Do you have any questions, Mr. Patrone?

5766   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5767   I want to thank you as well for your comments today.

5768   Ms Serban, I was taken right back to my own youth because my parents were part of this huge wave of Italian immigrants during the 1950s and I can distinctly remember what a key role some of those Italian radio stations played. As they tried to integrate into society they were also able to enjoy their own culture. So your comments, as I said, reminded me of that.

5769   What I took from what you said was that you didn't want to be part of a melting pot, suggesting to me you weren't as interested in assimilation, cultural assimilation as much as you were holding on to what you have and yet still feeling a part of the whole of the country.

5770   Could you help me understand how a radio operation such as the one proposed by RED can help with that?

5771   MS SERBAN: I'm not sure I can, but I will certainly try.

5772   I come from a family of professional immigrants and I will tell you what I mean about that.

5773   My grandparents parents went to Romania from other countries. I am one-fourth Greek, one-forth Macedonia, not of a Slavic origin, one-forth Austrian and one-fourth Romanian.

5774   There was no radio in those days, however my parents and myself and my brother were born in Romania. In Romania there are 33 minorities living. I don't know if anyone can believe this, but it's true, even a small Italian community.

5775   We have always been told at home that nationality is one thing and citizenship is a different thing and then there is ethnicity that plays a part in this.

5776   But when you hear it from your mom and dad you may not believe it, or say, "Ah, what do they know, they're old." Then you hear it at school and you, "Oh, this is an institution, they might be onto something."

5777   Then you hear it on the radio, you read it in the newspapers and you tend to believe it, because they are the voice of the voiceless and they are the ones that have an opportunity to teach these differences between nationality, ethnicity, citizenship, but at the same time show us the links between them and how I will never deny my Romanian upbringing, but at the same time I will integrate that into what Canada is.

5778   And I'm sure that if myself and other passionate people would be there to tell this to the masses through radio, we would be better equipped as a society to do it.

5779   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Right.

5780   MS SERBAN: If we did it honestly, Mr. Patrone --

5781   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you.

5782   MS SERBAN:  -- because if we don't do it honestly there is no chance.

5783   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you.

5784   Ms Newman, congratulations on your work with the Calgary Multicultural Centre and the Armenian community.

5785   You point out that RED is planning to serve 23 ethnocultural groups and broadcast in 19 languages.

5786   Assuming they are awarded a licence, what advice would you have for them on striking the right balance between serving all these diverse groups?

5787   MS NEWMAN: Historically we know that there are large communities here that are from South and Southeast Asia and there are also other communities that are a smaller group. For example, my own community, which is the Armenian, which comprises of 200 people only, and the RED FM has planned to serve the smaller communities, even though they may not be able to pay for it.

5788   Our resources are available to RED FM in order to make the connections for them to reach out to these communities and provide the support they need to develop their own programs and services that reaches out to their isolated people.

5789   So as an organization we have 30-plus years of experience reaching to communities and working with communities and communicating the benefits of intercultural dialogue.

5790   So we believe that a program that is going to reach out to 23 ethnocultural organizations or languages, along with 19, is not only impressive, but heart-warming to see that a radio station is also involved in investing in the community.

5791   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: All right. Thank you.

5792   Dr. Taggar, good luck in your training as a physician in the field of radiation oncology.

5793   DR. TAGGAR: Thank you.

5794   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: I was very interested in hearing your views on how, through the power of radio, preventative medicine and education can improve the health of an entire community and it really highlights for me how critical the work of a radio service can be when you are talking about something as key as health.

5795   Can you talk a little bit about that?

5796   DR. TAGGAR: Certainly.

5797   Just in the era of computers and everybody is so technologically advanced right now, when we are in the clinic and we encounter patients, especially from the mainstream culture, they are quite informed about various diseases, various symptoms to look for, the tests to be done, what treatment options are available, and this is primarily from internet. That is the biggest source of information right now.

5798   However, the same information is not available for immigrant ethnic workers, especially elderly who may not be able to read, who may not even have access to internet.

5799   I can tell you about my own dad. We moved here in 1996 and he was an engineer in India, but he has never had any training in computers and I have had 15 years of unsuccessful training to use internet. Now, he still can't open Word. He can't.

5800   So the same thing goes for a lot of other immigrant Canadians who certainly are in need of a lot of information about their health and how to get it, who to approach, what treatments are available there, and just how to prevent certain diseases which are preventable.

5801   If they can't reach internet I think radio, which certainly they can listen to in their house, in a car when they are travelling, at work if they are working in the forums, if they are working in a factory, would be very, very useful to deliver that message of preventative medicine.

5802   Not only heart diseases. Just recent stats, one of the recent papers showed even cancers, up to 40 percent can be prevented by just preventative medicine.

5803   So this is, I think, a very, very important issue as physicians for us to deliver that message that preventative medicine is the way to go for us in future.

5804   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yes. I can certainly see where you would play a role in just basic public health information, you know, where to go for a flu shot for instance, something like that.

5805   DR. TAGGAR: Yes.

5806   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: And to be able to communicate information like that to all those different groups.

5807   DR. TAGGAR: One of the other things that I wrote down in a piece of my presentation and didn't talk about it is things like, for us especially, radiation oncologists, when we deal with cancer patients, what I find most of the ethnic patients who come in, their disease is at a quite advanced stage compared to mainstream general population, and I think primarily that is because they they don't understand the disease itself, they don't know the signs or symptoms, they don't know how to approach a doctor at the right time.

5808   By the time they do come to our centre at the Tom Baker Cancer Centre, or Foothills, it is quite far advanced and the chance of cure is a lot less. So, you know, if we can help provide that information when to reach out, it is very, very critical.

5809   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: I want to thank all three of you for your comments today once again.

5810   Mr. Chairman...?

5811   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

5812   Thank you so much. Have a great day.

5813   Madam Ventura...?

5814   THE SECRETARY: We will take --

5815   THE CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes for a health break.

5816   Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1021

--- Upon resuming at 1037

5817   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon. Good morning. I'm always thinking ahead.

5818   Go ahead.

5819   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5820   We will now proceed with Music BC Industry Association, Alberta Music Industry Association and Said The Whale, who are appearing as a panel to present their interventions.

5821   We will begin with Music BC Industry Association.

5822   Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5823   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5824   MR. D'EITH: Thank you.

5825   My name is Bob D'Eith, I am the Executive Director of Music BC. I really thank the Commission and the Chair for allowing me to speak on behalf of this application.

5826   Just as an introduction to myself and my organization, Music BC is a non-profit provincial music industry association dedicated to the development of B.C.-based musicians and the B.C. music industry and it has been doing that for 20 years. I have been the Executive Director for 10 years.

5827   I am also on FACTOR's National Advisory Board, the Canadian Council of Music Industry Associations, the Canadian Independent Music Association, and I am the President of the Western Canadian Music Alliance which produces BreakOut West and the Western Canadian Music Awards.

5828   I have been a practicing entertainment lawyer, recording label executive, music publisher and recording artist for 20 years, and I also have five kids.

--- Laughter

5829   MR. D'EITH: So I'm a busy guy. Okay.

5830   I'm going to start this here. Right, go.

5831   Okay. I just wanted to say a couple of things.

5832   First, as far as radio, over the past 10 years we have noticed in the independent music community that commercial radio has become increasingly difficult for independent artists to access. Playlists have tightened considerably, and this is due in part to consolidation and central national music program, but also due to some of the formats that have been approved that do not necessarily feature original new and emerging music.

5833   Vancouver's 100.5, the PEAK, was licensed as one of Canada's first broad-based Tripe A stations two years ago. The station has been a breath of fresh air for the independent music community and is unique in the country. In fact, that station has helped to launch some of B.C.'s biggest up and coming artists.

5834   The best two examples are Dan Mangan and Mother Mother. Dan Mangan was the first independent artist played on 100.5, The PEAK. Dan and Mother Mother have received heavy rotation on the station since its inception and now both of these artists are up for Juno Awards this year in Ottawa.

5835   We anticipate that next year we will look back on the success of such artists as Said The Whale, We Are the City, Current Swell, The Boom Booms and many other B.C. artists and trace their original radio play to 100.5, The PEAK.

5836   Adding another Triple A station to the Canadian market in Calgary will be seen as a very positive step in the right direction in supporting emerging Canadian artists.

5837   The second point I want to speak to is the Peak Performance Project.

5838   Music BC has worked with most of the Canadian broadcasters over the last 20 years with CCD programming and support from Canadian radio through CCD programs is essential to the ongoing health and development of the Canadian music industry.

5839   Music BC has had the privilege of co-creating, administering and producing the Canadian Music Week award-winning Peak Performance Project.

5840   The Peak Performance Project is a seven-year, $5.2 million project funded by Pattison Broadcasting and 100.5, The PEAK. All of the funds come to Music BC and go directly to the development of Peak Performance artists.

5841   I'm here today to talk about the possibility of the program being introduced into the Alberta market.

5842   By way of background, the global recording industry has been severely challenged over the past 10 years. Pirated downloads have crippled the industry. This is a $30 billion industry that has now gone down to a $14 billion industry, so it has been cut in half. This has resulted in CD retailers and distributors going bankrupt across the country. It has also led to major labels around the world laying off tens of thousands of employees.

5843   Now, how has this affected independent artists?

5844   Without significant revenues from sales of recordings, the major labels have dramatically curtailed the development of new artists. This responsibility has now been downloaded to the independent labels and, for the most part, to the artists themselves.

5845   This is the climate upon which the Pattison Broadcasting Group first approached us in developing this idea for the Peak Performance Project.

5846   As far as the project itself, in a nutshell, it's the first of its kind to integrate education, marketing, promotion, radio support and significant funding as a unit.

5847   I won't get into it because I gather the Peak Performance -- the station has talked about the program itself. If there are any questions, please feel free to ask.

5848   So far the success of the project has been undeniable. With close to 60 bands and over 220 musicians having participated in the first three years, a new sense of optimism and community has risen in the B.C. music market.

5849   For the first time in years artists are feeling like they have been given the tools to move their careers forward. We already have two Juno Award winners, Said The Whale and Greg Sczebel, both top five Peak Performance Project artists.

5850   The Peak Performance Project has financed the production of six export-ready albums. We have tours to Brazil, Australia, U.S.A., Europe and across Canada. We have received national and international radio play.

5851   With four years left on the Peak Performance Project we expect the fruits from the program to continue for many years to come.

5852   This same success should be brought to Alberta. Our sister organization, Music Alberta, has the capacity and know-how to deliver just as impactful a Peak Performance Project in Alberta. We strongly support the growth of the Peak Performance project in Alberta and we will make every effort on our path to help this happen.

5853   We also submit that a significant private sector support of the music industry is critical at the time when provincial and federal funding may be cut to the arts. $4.9 million for Alberta through the Peak Performance Project is a huge commitment of private money and exactly the type of investment that the music industry needs to grow and thrive.

5854   We commend the Commission for supporting the Peak Performance Project in Vancouver and we respectfully suggest that it would be an appropriate and very impactful CCD program for the new Calgary station.

5855   The BC music community would like to take the opportunity to thank the CRTC for approving the Peak Performance Project CCD funding in B.C. and would like to encourage the CRTC to see this wonderful program come to Alberta.

5856   Thank you very much.

5857   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5858   We will now proceed with Alberta Music Industry Association.

5859   Please introduce yourself and you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5860   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5861   MS JENSON: My name is Kennedy Jenson. I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Music Industry Association.

5862   Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.

5863   I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Music Industry Association, which is a non-profit service organization with a mandate, just like Music BC, to provide professional development opportunities to those aspiring to a career in music.

5864   We have been in operation for 28 years and throughout that time have been the recipient of contributions through the Canadian Content Development. Is is actually how we are able to offer the programs and services that fulfil our mandate and, on behalf of the Board of Directors, I would like to thank the CRTC for these significant benefits.

5865   I have been Executive Director for Alberta Music for almost seven years. I, too, am on FACTOR's National Advisory Board, the Canadian Coalition of Music Industry Associations and am Vice President of the Western Canadian Music Alliance.

5866   But prior to all of that I was a musician for many, many years. When I started out there was certainly no programs like the Peak Performance Project. Nothing of that kind. Any professional development nature was not even close to what was going on now with the Peak Performance Project.

5867   A program like this certainly would have increased my song-writing abilities, my stage presence, I would have learned something about the business side of the music industry, and certainly met a lot of experienced professionals to give me a lot of advice along the way.

5868   Last summer I witnessed firsthand the boot camp portion of the Peak program and I know without a shadow of a doubt that it works and it would be a huge benefit to the Calgary music scene if the Alberta Music Industry Association was able to generate this valuable program.

5869   Alberta Music was also pleased to note the radio review comments from a couple of years ago encouraging broadcasters to utilize the provincial music industry organizations, thus keeping the funding local.

5870   The Board of Directors of the Alberta Music Industry Association certainly support this program 100 percent and know it will be of great value to those Alberta musicians wanting to build a career in the industry.

5871   Thank you.

5872   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5873   We will now proceed with Said The Whale.

5874   Please introduce yourselves, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5875   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5876   MR. WORCESTER: Hi. I'm Ben, I'm one-fifth of a band called Said the Whale.

5877   MR. BANCROFT: I'm Tyler, yes, we play in a band called Said The Whale from Vancouver. We started in 2007 and since then we have toured Canada, across Canada 10 times, toured the States twice, U.K. once, and we won a Juno for best new group last March in Toronto.

5878   We are also -- we placed second in the Peak Performance Project and were awarded $75,000, which paid for a large chunk of our album that is coming out in March.

5879   I think before we start talking about the PEAK we are going to roll a video clip.

5880   MR. WORCESTER: Hold on, this is my part.

5881   Dave, Geoff, if you wouldn't mind rolling that clip. Thanks very much.

--- Video presentation

5882   MR. BANCROFT: We've had a lot of thought about artist development. We developed a PEAK performance project which was designed to put the power back into the hands of the music industry.

5883   Something -- an experience like this is going to create art and music that's going to last forever. I don't even think you can begin to describe the importance of a situation like this, a camp where 100 like-minded, artistic individuals come together.

5884   And you have that many artistic people, creative people all in one space, something happens that I don't think can happen anywhere else.

5885   So those are some clips from the PEAK performance project, obviously, which I'll get to in a second. But I think -- I feel like there's a little bit of an elephant in the room in that we are a band that is receiving radio -- commercial radio support from the PEAK and also from other wonderful stations that are -- whose parent companies are being represented at this meeting.

5886   And I know there are a lot of politics involved in commercial radio and stuff like that, but -- yeah, no politics.

5887   But I think it's more of a testament to how much we really believe in the format of the PEAK radio station that we would come up here and put our butts on the line in front of competing radio stations that are also supporting us.

5888   So take that as a sign of our good faith towards the PEAK radio format.

5889   Really, the other thing, too, is that the PEAK in Vancouver stole our commercial radio virginity. They were the first station ever in Canada to play our music.

5890   And there's a scene from a movie, "That Thing You Do", with Tom Hanks, and the band has their song played on the radio for the first time and the scene is like all the band running down the streets and like banging on windows and getting everybody to turn on their radios, and it's like 1960-something.

5891   But if I can appeal to your heart strings a little, that's sort of the kind of thing that the PEAK is providing for new bands. And I think that they play a huge role in the radio market in Vancouver as a risk-taking station.

5892   And like Bob said, you know, you can trace a lot of successful artists in Canada, their first radio play being on the PEAK.

5893   And so that's hugely important, and I mean, when they started playing our song, it gave our radio promotions team ammo to go to other stations and then sort of get the ball rolling. And the support we've had from commercial radio has been huge.

5894   And our relative success in Canada, you know, we notice ticket sales jump up and record sales jump up, so it's pretty huge for us. And I don't think that would have happened without the PEAK.

5895   And then, of course, the other thing is the PEAK performance project, which is insane. I think you've probably heard a lot about it. They take 20 bands from a whole bunch of applicants, send them off to a huge resort in the middle of BC and, you know, teach them about the music industry and feed them and have showcases and really help artists get to a level that I don't think they would get to for a really long time. And it sort of -- it just happens very quickly.

5896   And what's crazy about the PEAK performance project is this is a radio station that's putting these people in such a beneficial scenario. It's absolutely insane that a radio station, which people are just supposed to listen to, can become so involved in the community.

5897   And I know, I mean, our involvement in it was hugely beneficial to us. Of course, we walked away with $75,000 that paid for a lot. But I mean, I think even the people that are just in the top 20 and getting to experience this are taking -- are getting a huge benefit that they never would have gotten without it.

5898   And not just the people from this project. The PEAK is also very active in the community. They're presenting shows. They had a bunch of concert series in the community.

5899   So as well as being a wonderful risk-taking station and supporting emerging artists and literally developing artists, they also play a huge role in the community. And it's really created an awesome music community in British Columbia that never existed before them, so that's that.

5900   My time's up.

5901   MR. WORCESTER: I'm just going to say, we have lots of friends in Alberta in bands who all wish that they were able to participate in something like the people from this project also.

5902   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, guys. For the record, I used to look like you guys and then I got this job.

--- Laughter

5903   THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you guys know about politics, anyways? Great.

5904   Questions? I think, Steve, you had some?

5905   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Mr. Whales.

5906   The first question is the name of the band. I looked all over the place trying to figure out where the inspiration came from. Are you guys Herman Melville fans, or what?

5907   MR. BANCROFT: Well, I'd maybe put us in the pop/rock category, yeah.

5908   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: I started playing back in '64, started touring, and one of the things I learned a lot about the northwest was that the northwest marches to its own drummer. I don't think there's any dispute that what PEAK has done has been exceptionally different.

5909   The thing that we've got to chew on is whether it's movable. So my question is this.

5910   Like last summer I had a long talk with Dan Mangen. He was playing at the Fireworks down in English Bay, and he was saying that, you know, there's something really unique that's happening in Vancouver with respect to the music, not unlike what was happening in the Maritimes with Great Big Sea and stuff like that.

5911   But my question is, from your experience as players, guys who have to sell CDs and tickets, is the Vancouver experience with this sound, you know, the revolution you're a part of, happening in the rest of the country to the point where what PEAK is doing uniquely in Vancouver can be a commercial success here? Because we can't make -- we can recognize the uniqueness of what they're doing, but we have to be really concerned that it's movable.

5912   MR. BANCROFT: For sure. I mean, I think what the PEAK is doing is enabling the bands to have that sort of revolution and come together.

5913   You know, when we started as a band, we were welcomed into the music scene, but it was nothing quite like what it's become in the past two years since the PEAK has jumped on board.

5914   And I know, you know, a lot of other music communities are perhaps known for their hostility or competition between bands, but I think, you know, touring across Canada, bands that we talk to, local bands, they know about the PEAK performance project and they know about the huge music community in Vancouver.

5915   And I think, you know, competing with other bands, they realize that it's not a -- it's not progressive and I think that they can look at the BC music scene and aspire to have something like that. And all they need is an avenue through which to do it, so I think the PEAK can really enable music scenes.

5916   And I mean, the talents is there. I can name a handful of Calgary bands that are incredible and, you know, every province has its hidden gems. They just need to be exposed and brought together.

5917   MR. WORCESTER: I would like to say that in being a part of the PEAK performance project, I noticed that it's devoted to artist development for artists, not just for those pop star bands that are ready for radio and everything like that.

5918   So although it's a radio station playing local music, a lot of these artists are very emerging. They're not getting any play anywhere else.

5919   And when I think about bands that I know in Calgary who are working on amazing records and I love their music and I think that, you know, they're the next best thing.

5920   These are the bands that will get to be a part of the PEAK performance project and the PEAK would play somebody who just comes out of the woodwork because they're able to and want to. And I think that's pretty valuable also.

5921   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: My -- okay.

5922   MS. JENSON: May I just --

5923   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Go ahead.

5924   MS. JENSON: I just wanted to say that Alberta sometimes loses our bands to Vancouver or to Toronto and, as a matter of fact, the winner of last year's PEAK performance used to live in St. Albert. And I know for a fact that since we all heard the possibility of the PEAK -- this PEAK project coming to Alberta, there has been a buzz in the music industry like you wouldn't believe.

5925   And so yes, it's definitely movable. There's people that are ready to sign up right now.

5926   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: But I was going to ask the two of you -- I'm very familiar with Music BC. It's been around a long time.

5927   Functionally, you know, what I said to the PEAK the other day was that, you know, I don't know if you're a commercial radio station or a really elaborate A&R, artist and repertoire, organization that happens to have a transmitter.

5928   Hearing all the accolades about the artist development side of what they're doing, do you think in your expert opinions as people involved in the industry that the music side of it, the radio side of it will be successful? Because I'm pretty convinced that their commitment to the artist side of it will be successful, but that doesn't make a great radio station.

5929   MR. D'EITH: Well, one of the great things about the PEAK is that they are playing Jack Johnson and U2 and all the big acts around the world that would fit into the Triple A format, so one of the benefits to that is that you have independent artists being played in the same rotation, in the same space as big acts that are big all over the world.

5930   They'll be just as big in Alberta or Texas or London, you know.

5931   So I think absolutely this -- it's transportable. There's a huge demand for the type of music that the PEAK is playing, and obviously they'd have to be -- I mean, one of the beauties of having a locally-owned broadcaster is, I think, that it can be tailored for the Alberta market, too.

5932   It's not going to be exactly the same as Vancouver. There's going to be some adjustments that need to be made for Alberta. But I -- having worked with Kennedy and all the other music industry associations across Canada, there should be a PEAK in every music -- there should be one right across the country. We need it.

5933   There's a void there that needs to be filled, and I really believe that.

5934   THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that's it. Thank you so much for coming down, especially Said the Whale. You guys are eloquent spokesmen for young musicians, and good luck with the album.

5935   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Canal House Marketing, Drew Allum and Brendan Hagan, who are appearing as a panel to present their interventions, to come forward.

5936   Thank you.

--- Pause

5937   THE SECRETARY: We will begin with Canal House Marketing. Please introduce yourself, after which you will have five minutes for your presentation.

5938   Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5939   MS. HORNE: Okay, thank you.

5940   First of all, good morning, Mr. Chairman and the Commission. My name is Laura Esther Horne, and I'd like to start off by thanking you all for allowing me to speak in favour of Bell Media's application for Flow 95.3.

5941   I'm here to speak out on behalf of Calgary's business community, and I'm actually a Dutch immigrant. I moved to Canada six years ago, and last January 5th I became a Canadian citizen.

5942   I have a Masters degree in mass communications, and when I first came to Canada, I started working for a large real estate developer. And that was in 2006.

5943   For the first two and a half years of my employment, I was involved with short-term leasing a four shopping centres here in Calgary, and then moved on to become a marketing director for two shopping centres.

5944   Currently, I am the marketing director for my husband's company, which is Deco Windshield Repair, and I also do freelance consulting with my own Canal House Marketing.

5945   It's during my years as a marketing director at the two shopping centres that I first started working with the team at Bell Media. When I started in this position, I was actually extremely disappointed with the large number of radio sales reps that kept calling me and walked into my office.

5946   I felt like a number or, frankly, and pardon my words, I felt like a cash cow. There was no creativity or interest in my company's needs. All they seemed to want to do is sell me on 30-second commercials or on traffic sponsorship.

5947   And then the team from Bell Media walked in my door, and they were an absolute breath of fresh air. Where most radio stations were still unwilling to combine advertising packages that included both on-air and online media -- that's something I was very adamant about -- the team at Bell Media got it.

5948   For instance, my mall sponsored a radio segment called Calgary Life and Style that was written and voiced by a co-worker and I, and it tied into our social media efforts. We talked about all the fun trends and events around Calgary to position my mall as an expert on local style and trends.

5949   In addition, I promoted many other mall events with Bell Media, both on-air and online, all of which increased traffic at my centres with at least five percent.

5950   Throughout my years of working with Bell Media, they have shown genuine interest and concern for my performance targets, my brands and the company overall. I always felt treated like a partner instead of a customer. They consistently went above and beyond, and were not afraid to meet my demands of mixing traditional radio buys with social media promotions.

5951   I can't wait for the team at Bell Media to launch their second station, Flow 95.3. As a business owner, I see huge possibilities to buy advertising on both stations, as it makes economical sense to spread buys.

5952   In addition, I cannot stress enough how important it is for Calgary to get a unique format station. As a client, I'm definitely not interested in more of the same.

5953   This new station will allow me to reach our online demographic, which is a little bit younger, namely, 18 to 29 year olds, and get this group, who are often quite affluent, well known with our brand and our position as a top student employer in Calgary. Namely, the 18 to 29 year old group is our key demographic for staffing our over 45 locations in the Calgary area, so I'm already very interested to partner with Bell Media and Flow 95.3

5954   Now, Flow 95.3 will not only be good for our business. Currently, no station in the area targets this demographic. Flow 95.3 could fill this void and allow other businesses to advertise to this new, younger demographic which makes up approximately 20 percent of Calgary's population.

5955   To summarize, I cannot think of a better team than Bell Media to obtain this frequency in the Calgary market. They are cutting edge when it comes to radio advertising, social media, community out reach and event planning, and they care. And that's the kind of people that I want to advertise with.

5956   I'd like to thank you for your time, and I look forward to answering any questions that you may have.

5957   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5958   We will now proceed with Drew Allum. Mr. Allum, you have five minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

5959   MR. ALLUM: Thank you.

5960   Good day, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. May name is Drew Allum. I've been a Calgary resident since 1989. I'm an immigrant as well, from the Islands of Trinidad and Tabago.

5961   I'm a lover of hip-hop and R&B music. I'm also a club disc jockey, an event host and a long-time promoter of hip-hop and R&B music and acts here within this city, as well as Caribbean music in Calgary.

5962   I am the entertainment coordinator and former President of the Caribbean Community Council. We put on the annual Carafest here in the city. We just celebrated our 30th year in 2011.

5963   In 1995, I started Calgary's first urban hip-hop radio show on Calgary's community radio station, CJSW 90.9 FM. In 2000, I created and produced as well as co-host the city's first ever urban mix show on commercial radio in Calgary.

5964   I've been involved in concerts in Calgary for artists such as Usher, Naz, Common, Busta Rhymes, Snoop Dogg, The Roots, Ludacris -- I can probably keep going on and on.

5965   I'm also currently working on select projects with other artists, producers, disc jockeys and promoters throughout the city.

5966   I've recently returned to community radio as well to program and host an all-Caribbean music show on Wednesday evenings at CJSW.

5967   I see radio as a business as well as entertainment.

5968   Calgary is definitely ready for a hip-hop and R&B station. The city continues to grow in diversity, and many of the people that I began promoting to are now actually gainfully employed as well as business owners, and definitely in a better earning position, and are looking for some place to actually park their ears as well as, you know, potentially open their wallets as well.

5969   Many work in the downtown core and are even business owners. My former business partner is actually now the owner of Craft Beer Market, avid hip-hop and R&B lover.

5970   The core demo, again, 18 to 29, continues to grow in Calgary, which I see regularly in the event turn-outs for any of the concerts that we do.

5971   It's not just black music. More people know about the music and the artists today than ever before. It's evident in the diverse audiences that show up for our live events.

5972   An analogy I'll throw here, a lot of people would potentially say the same thing about major leagues like the NFL or the NBA, which have a predominantly black player base. But if we actually look at the actual fan base in the stands, people who are actually purchasing, they come from all walks of life.

5973   Calgary supports hip-hop. There are multiple concerts that have actually happened within the city. And the interesting thing about these concerts is how they were actually promoted.

5974   So for Snoop Dogg, for example, this took place at the University of Calgary in the ballroom. Upwards of 2,000 people in attendance. Major concerts for acts like Jay-Z, 50 Cent, Kanye West, L'il Wayne, they actually filled the Saddledome. Naz has actually been to Calgary multiple times at The Whiskey. The Roots, who are actually on late-night television nightly, have actually been to Flame Central and sold out and, just this summer gone, I was actually a part of a concert with a gentleman by the name of Common, who's actually sold out Flame Central.

5975   He was actually in town shooting his new TV series, and we were actually able to get him on stage to perform to a sold-out show.

5976   Hip-hop legend KRS-One was actually in town as well and actually performed to a capacity crowd at the opening of one of Calgary's newest bars called The Commonwealth.

5977   The interesting thing about all of these things that I'm talking about is these acts get absolutely no radio airplay within the city, and yet still have selling out venues here in Calgary.

5978   Canadian hip-hop and R&B artists are ready, too, not just the ones south of the border. They need to have a station to call their own so that this genre of music will continue to grow in Canada.

5979   Flow in Toronto has shown that supporting local acts can actually springboard careers. Names like Kardinal Offishall and Drake will probably come to mind.

5980   After getting their music played in Canada and having a station support their music, record labels and industry heavyweights in the US were able to hear them and then promote them to an international audience.

5981   It wasn't until Kardinal reached number 5 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart with a collaboration where it actually -- with an established American artist by the name of Akon that we actually had a Canadian rapper have a major chart hit in the United States. That was in 2008.

5982   He was followed shortly by Drake in 2009, whose single, "Best I Ever Had", reached number 2 on the Billboard Hot 100.

5983   Again, to note that these are things that were happening very, very organically.

5984   Another major international breakthrough came when as the official -- K'aanan is actually the gentleman's name. His single, "Wavin' Flag", was announced as the official Coca-Cola theme song for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. The song has become an international hit in at least 16 countries worldwide.

5985   And once these artists, of course, become international superstars, the interesting thing that happens is then Canada decides we're going to support them and they become Top 40 artists.

5986   THE SECRETARY: Pardon me. You have about 30 seconds. Could you please --

5987   MR. ALLUM: Sure.

5988   THE SECRETARY:  -- conclude?

5989   Thank you.

5990   MR. ALLUM: Okay. Fans of the music turn to other sources, internet, satellite radio, video sites, et cetera to actually get their information and their music. This, I believe, is a missed opportunity for radio, especially in Calgary with its population growth and diverse tastes.

5991   Major station support will encourage more talent to create quality music for Calgarians to enjoy and, of course, build a better sense of community and belonging.

5992   Thank you very much.

5993   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

5994   We will now proceed with Brendan Hagan.

5995   Mr. Hagan, you have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

5996   MR. HAGAN: Good morning, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission Staff. My name is Brendan Hagan. I'm a music teacher at Western Canada High School for the Calgary Public Board of Education High School here in the City of Calgary and I'm actually a born and raised Calgarian, one of the few of us what are in the city.

5997   At Western Canada High School, I'm part of a 104-person teaching staff that serves a school of 2,000 students. At Western I'm also the department head for the Fine and Performing Arts Program, where I'm responsible for overseeing students and staff in the disciplines of Visual Art, Drama, Dance and Music.

5998   In my capacity as department head, I'm responsible for ensuring that our students in grades 10, 11 and 12 receive the highest possible level of instruction and opportunity in their education and development in the fine and performing arts. More specifically in my role as a music teacher I'm responsible for the instrumental music development of over 240 instrumentalists and 170 vocalists.

5999   At our school we are proud to boast an enrollment of over 400 students in music and extremely proud to say that over half of our total school population is enrolled in a fine and performing arts program.

6000   I am here today to speak in support of Bell Media's application for Flow 93-5.

6001   Approval of Flow 93-5 will bring significant Canadian content dollars to Calgary. This is of great benefit to Calgary area high schools such as Western Canada High School, through Bell Media's partnership with MusicCounts!

6002   In a time where it is increasingly more expensive and more difficult to operate music education programs, external funding and partnership has become a valued approach and strategy to continue to foster music education within the school setting. This funding is imperative to the growth and enrichment of young musicians in Calgary.

6003   Today I would like to share with you my professional perspective as a music educator who day in and day out is challenged with the task of musically enriching 400+ high school age students.

6004   I can tell you that most often from student to student those pursuing music education through enrolment in a school program are talented, motivated and relentless in their pursuit of this passion for learning more about music.

6005   I can also tell you that the limiting factor in their musical development is seldom their actual music potential. It in fact almost always comes down to their access to available resources, resources such as a quality musical instrument, new music content in the way of recently published sheet music, access to music technology and to professional musicians in the community through workshops/master classes/clinics and lesson settings and also the opportunity to see music in a professional environment.

6006   In a music education setting where these types of resources become more available for student access the student continues to develop their musical skill at a level which is truly reflective of their potential. For this reason, the Canadian content dollars that would become available to Western Canada High School and to the Calgary community on the whole are absolutely necessary to the enrichment of young musicians.

6007   In music education today, meaningful partnerships which engage young people, the professional community and professional industry are key to building education in music and an understanding of professional music culture. The opportunity that presents itself for a music education partnership with Bell Media through the approval of Flow 93-5 and Western Canada High School is extraordinary.

6008   At Western Canada High School we are currently trying to operate an artist in residency program with our local Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra. Currently, this partnership allows our 400+ music students the opportunity to work in instructional lesson and master class settings with professional musicians from the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra. Through this opportunity they are able to learn more about their respective instruments, gain an understanding of what a professional model looks like and gain an awareness of professional music in the Calgary community.

6009   In addition, our students are provided with the opportunity to attend performances and open rehearsals by the CPO and complete workshops with the Chorusmaster and Resident Conductor.

6010   In the brief time in which we have been working with this partnership our students have developed a vested interest in the professional music culture that exists within Calgary. In 2011, Western Canada High School and the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra were recognized with the Mayor's Excellence Award for curriculum support through the Calgary Educational Partnership Foundation.

6011   This partnership program is one of the truest forms of professional and music education collaboration in the city of Calgary. While this program has been tremendously beneficial to the development of our music students and to our local music community, we are struggling to find ways to continue to sustain its activity financially.

6012   The Canadian content dollars that would become available through the approval of Bell Media's application for Flow would provide the opportunity for programs like this to continue to operate and expand to their full potential. The possibilities with these types of partnerships are endless and, again, are often limited by access to funds.

6013   This partnership example, I would be as bold as to say, must be one of the best possible types of investments that the government could hope for with the investment of Canadian content dollars. In this particular model, 400 young musicians are engaged in learning about music, the city's finest orchestral musicians are employed to deliver their expertise to a younger generation of musicians, and Bell Media through its station Flow would contribute to both music education and the professional music community in Calgary.

6014   Bell Media's commitment to support this partnership long term given their successful application for Flow would allow this program to continue to operate long term and expand to full potential. Furthermore, it would be an unbelievably successful synergy of professional music, music education and community working together to foster the development of young musicians.

6015   The final outcome of this would be an understanding by our students that professional organizations and Canadian radio are committed to the development of youth and their pursuits of music, thus creating an awareness and respect of public radio. It is what I would describe as a perfect triangle of music education, professional music and the music industry working together in a community to build culture together.

6016   I strongly support Bell Media's application for the approval of Flow. Their intended commitment to the development of music education through Canadian content dollars and to the greater Calgary community in the way of arts and culture should be seen in a respectful and innovative light.

6017   I would like to respectfully thank you for your time and take any questions which you may have at this time.

6018   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Commissioner Patrone might have a question.

6019   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6020   I very much appreciate your presentation.

6021   During the presentation for Flow, I remember one of the things that was discussed was how this type of music tends to generate a certain ego system relative to fashion, haircuts, you know, all the style, and I know that just from seeing my son, who really appreciates this type of music. I mean there's a whole style that goes with it.

6022   And so I was wondering if you might address, Mr. Allum, your thoughts regarding how that happens. It seems to be unique to hip hop, maybe it isn't, but it strikes me that it seems to be accentuated with this type of music.

6023   MR. ALLUM: It's probably not unique to hip hop, but I think once it actually manifests itself, it becomes very, very evident because it's not something that is probably culturally taught anywhere else. So you're probably wondering where did that, in essence, just show up from.

6024   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yes.

6025   MR. ALLUM: A lot of it, again, is just the demographic that we're dealing with and where they actually are getting the influences. I mean a lot of the stuff, as I mentioned, in the absence of a dedicated radio, people are finding, you know, the music that they like and then attempting to emulate from another region or another culture.

6026   So I would be listening to an artist from Miami or an artist from New York or an artist from L.A., and the temperature difference there, what they wear, all of a sudden that becomes maybe something I decide -- you know, I decide I'm going to put on here.

6027   You know, you're very -- well, susceptible might be an interesting word to use, but open definitely to whatever you think your favourite act is actually doing. If that's the cool thing, then that's what you end up doing, I guess.

6028   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yes. And I guess, Ms Esther Horne, with your involvement in marketing, I guess you see that a lot too, where companies gravitate towards an environment in which the music and the culture tend to produce an atmosphere where they can sell a certain type of fashion or market their goods based on the power of radio?

6029   MS HORNE: M'hmm. Yes, definitely. And coming from the shopping centre industry, definitely a large portion of this sub-culture, whether it's clothing, accessories, baseball caps, types of shoes, there's a huge opportunity there for advertisers to jump on that bandwagon and promote their apparel and accessories, et cetera, on a station like this too, a sub-culture like that.

6030   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yes, it is interesting. Certain ball caps are hip and then other ones are completely out --

6031   MS HORNE: Yes.

6032   COMMISSIONER PATRONE:  -- based on the music.

6033   Okay, thank you. Those are my questions.

6034   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: One quick question. It relates to marketing and the music format.

6035   There's a certain affluence that you see from the U.S. side of what's coming out of hip hop culture and it seems to be a niche market that doesn't integrate. It certainly has got an affluence about it that doesn't dispute the marketing viability of hip hop but it seems to not -- it seems to be building its own world, if you like, both in the media and in the culture of the U.S.

6036   But my question has to do with -- but is hip hop really more of a world culture music and the U.S. interpretation of it is a spinoff?

6037   MR. ALLUM: Yes. I would definitely say that. It is a world culture now. I mean a lot of the events that I get involved with, we are on actually hip hop dance as well. So we actually have acts that are coming in from as far away as France, okay.

6038   To add, I guess, a bit more to what's potentially happening, what you end up seeing with a lot of the U.S. acts actually is that they market themselves. Again, these end up -- the people who are making all this money and, you know, that sort of lifestyle, et cetera, are able to do that because they realize that I have the ears of whatever group of people, so I'm going to sell them my brand of clothing, my brand of jewellery, my brand -- this is the vehicle that I intend to drive. They've just really, really embraced that, but that definitely is a U.S. thing.

6039   I can say even, for example, one of the more up and coming acts in Canada, his name is Shad, he actually won the Juno. He's completely the opposite of that, whereas Shad will tell you that he borrows his mom's car, he lives at home because he's more interested in paying for his schooling at this point than buying the fun watch, and he's got a fan base based on that too. So it can be pretty much whatever the artist wants it to be.

6040   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Ms Horne, given what's just been said and the fact that -- or not the fact, but the presentation is that this particular format would go to a considerably tighter demographic, do you feel confident, as a marketer in a market like Calgary, that this station can keep to the world level and be enough of a mass market format for you as a marketer to work with?

6041   MS HORNE: That's a great question. There's actually two parts to my answer to that.

6042   I think that there's definitely the hip hop and the R&B. That's more of a niche culture, but I think that type of music is becoming more and more mainstream.

6043   I definitely don't prefer the baggy pants and the caps, but I do love to listen to Beyoncé or even a Jay-Z, for instance. But I completely do not fit the demographic, as we talked about before, with the niche market. So I think that the mainstream hip hop and R&B will attract a lot more people into a station like Flow.

6044   The second part of my answer would be the format that they're proposing is very interactive. So it's not just radio playing hip hop and R&B. It's actually creating a platform for young people to interact with each other, and as a marketing person I've very interested because I think that a lot of the young kids, in their use of media, they watch TV but they have their laptop and their own Twitter while watching TV.

6045   So that integrated experience of different media outlets is very interesting and I would love to try a radio station that is so on the ball when it comes to that interactive experience, where almost the format becomes not as important but the experience becomes more important to those young individuals who might turn on that station regardless of what their preference in music is.

6046   So yes, as an advertiser, very interested because it's mainstream and because it's interactive -- it could be mainstream.

6047   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: It's mainstream or it could be?

6048   MS HORNE: It could be mainstream. There is mainstream hip hop and R&B out there and I think that even just watching the Super Bowl half-time show on Sunday, there's Madonna, who's been named the Queen of Pop, but she brings in a ton of hip hop and R&B acts like Nicki Minaj, et cetera, et cetera. So you see the genre oozing into other genres. So that's what I mean with mainstream.

6049   THE CHAIRPERSON: I think hip hop has gone mainstream, but anyways -- and international.

6050   MR. ALLUM: Thank you.

6051   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much.

6052   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Wait a second.

6053   THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry.

6054   Commissioner Menzies.

6055   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Mr. Hagan, it would probably seem odd to most people but it probably speaks to the eclectic nature of your program that a CPO artist-in-residence program would be funded by a hip hop station.

6056   But I just need to know actually how much money is involved in the funding of that program.

6057   MR. HAGAN: Right now, we are operating at $11,250 a year and it's to barely operate it.

6058   And to answer the first part of it, which is, you know, it seems odd that it would be a hip hop radio station which would have a tie-in, but, you know, the thing about Calgary and the thing that you really notice as a high school teacher is that what you're working with is a very, very eclectic group of individuals that come from a variety of different backgrounds, and kids that are studying classical music, jazz music, are interested in every kind of genre of music.

6059   You know, if you asked a kid today what is your favourite -- like pick your favourite artist, I can't do that, I like a lot of music, is typically the answer you're going to get. So that tie, I think, is just a unique way of branding a few different types of music together.

6060   And the other thing that we operate with, our program is an electronic music program and we're the only high school in the City of Calgary that does that. And the opportunities that could be provided through that kind of partnership with a hip hop radio station, that's often where we find some of the students with more interest in that area, is going down that avenue of electronically produced music. So it would be kind of interesting to see where the possibilities will lead to with that environment as well.

6061   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you. You have an excellent program at Western Canada. The Calgary Theatre community is filled with your graduates --

6062   MR. HAGAN: That's right.

6063   COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  -- that sort of stuff, and my daughter was part of it too. So there's my conflict of interest out there.

--- Laughter

6064   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.

6065   MR. HAGAN: Thanks.

6066   THE CHAIRPERSON: Full disclosure.

6067   Thank you so much.

6068   MS HORNE: Thank you.

6069   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for coming in.

6070   Madam Ventura.

6071   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6072   I would now invite Cressman-Sakamoto Agency and Cliff Dumas, who are appearing as a panel, to come forward.

--- Pause

6073   THE SECRETARY: We will begin with Cressman-Sakamoto Agency. Please introduce yourself and you will them have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

6074   MS ALDRIDGE: Members of the Commission, good morning. My name is Erin Aldridge and I'm the Director of Marketing and Artist Relations with the Cressman-Sakamoto Agency. I 'm filling in for Jim Cressman, President of CSA, as he had an unexpected business trip and couldn't make it.

6075   Mr. Cressman and I have discussed the letter of support he filed on behalf of Clear Sky Radio's application for a new country station here in Calgary as well as the agreement that he and Clear Sky President Paul Larsen concluded regarding the country talent search portion of their proposed Canadian Content Development initiatives.

6076   As his substitute, my comments today will reflect Mr. Cressman's. However, I will also say that in my artist relations role at CSA, I will be very much involved in the relationship with Clear Sky should they be successful in winning this Calgary application.

6077   Cressman Sakamoto Agency is an award-winning premiere agency for Canadian country artists. Our services range from artist management to tour booking, public appearances, endorsements and sponsorships. Our artist roster currently includes some Top Canadian country acts like Johnny Reid, Terri Clark, George Canyon, One More Girl and many others.

6078   As you might know, country artists still rely heavily on country music radio to create exposure and awareness. Airplay generates royalties, it increases album and single sales, and it increases concert ticket sales. It plays an integral role in the success of a live show. It ensures fans become aware of show dates and ticket announcements.

6079   With Calgary being the epicentre of country music in Canada, of any major Canadian city, it's well equipped to support two FM stations focused on delivering country music to an eager audience.

6080   As I mentioned, CSA is deeply integrated in the Canadian country music industry. The artists we represent rely heavily on country radio to introduce their music to their public. As an artist's exposure increases through airplay, the demand for live performances and new music also increases and it grows the success of the artist. So another country station is something that we definitely support.

6081   We're proud to partner with Clear Sky on their annual country talent search to offer an unparalleled prize package including songwriting and production assistance from CCMA and JUNO award-winning artist and producer George Canyon, artist development advice, tour exposure and more. CSA brings to this package the appropriate connections, expertise and industry commitment to give the winner the best possible shot at success.

6082   When Mr. Larsen first contacted us about Clear Sky's Canadian Content Development plan, we were really encouraged that they recognized that the quality of the prize is incredibly important, and to truly offer a chance to develop and expose a new artist they had to partner with industry professionals. Mr. Cressman has known Mr. Larsen since they worked together at Country 105 in the late 1990's, so there's a mutual respect and trust that gave us confidence that we could work well together with them if they are successful.

6083   We've seen a lot of talent searches over the years. Often, they are ineffective for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the grand prize is cash simply given to an artist with no guarantee that they will put it towards career development. Other times they attempt to "piecemeal" the prizing, ending up with unreputable vendors for critical aspects like production. There are hundreds of people who have set themselves up as production houses as today's technology makes it very easy to do so.

6084   So by partnering with CSA, Clear Sky has tapped into professional songwriting assistance and production from George Canyon. Teaming an emerging artist with an artist of his stature and experience is really not an opportunity that would be available without the partnership between CSA and Clear Sky.

6085   The Clear Sky contest winners will have a huge leg up with the exceptional production value of the songs that come out of this annual project, not to mention instant credibility of the association with George Canyon on the songwriting and production credits.

6086   The prize package with CSA also goes further, offering the contest winner tour exposure and career counselling. Again, this exposure and knowledge is not something that a brand-new artist could walk in and buy from CSA. So this prize package is truly offering exceptional value to the emerging artists.

6087   In closing, I thought it would be important to explain why CSA is partnering on this venture.

6088   Simply, we would like to do our part to help grow Canadian country music. If we can help mentor, coach and launch a new country music star, then the industry benefits and we have an opportunity to grow our reputation as leaders in the industry. We're also in the fortunate position to be able to give back a little to this industry that has been so good to us.

6089   In Clear Sky Radio, we are confident we will be working with a partner that shares these same principles, and together, we will have success in discovering new Canadian country music talent.

6090   Thank you so much for the opportunity.

6091   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

6092   We will now proceed with Cliff Dumas. Mr. Dumas, you have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

INTERVENTION

6093   MR. DUMAS: Thank you.

6094   Members of the Commission, good morning. My name is Cliff Dumas. I'm pleased to be here today to present my support for Clear Sky Radio's application for a new country music FM station here in Calgary.

6095   As I noted in the support letter I filed, I've spent over 25 years in country radio and television in Canada and the U.S. I've hosted country radio morning shows in Hamilton and Toronto for close to 15 years and for the last 10 years I've been in the U.S., the last seven of those in San Diego. So getting used to a little bit of the snow since I've been back has been a bit of a challenge, but that's okay because I'm Canadian through and through.

6096   I've been lucky to earn multiple CCMA awards here in Canada, along with both a CMA (that's the Country Music Association) and the ACM (which is the Academy of Country Music) award for radio personality of the year in the U.S., which was just this past year.

6097   I've also written and produced 18 CCMA awards. I wrote the Tommy Hunter Show, if you remember that program, and I've done CBC specials for Anne Murray, Paul Brandt and Terri Clark, and I was the voice of CMT Canada for 15 years.

6098   I currently consult morning shows and provide media training for country artists with the Randy Lane Company, who is based in Los Angeles.

6099   So I've spent virtually my entire career in country music. I'm very passionate about the audience, the artists and, most importantly, the integrity of those who serve both. I can tell you from experience that our Canadian artists can, without a doubt, stand toe-to-toe with any of their U.S. counterparts.

6100   CCMA rising star winner and former NHL player Chad Brownlee; Marlee Scott, who I just finished a workshop with in Nashville; Jason Blaine; Paul Brant, who lives here -- and I've been the voice of Paul's concerts for the last 10 years. What they're missing is a more tangible and innovative support from the radio industry in Canada.

6101   New and established artists need to get more exposure and deserve to have a larger national footprint to showcase their talent and this is why I wanted to lend my support to Clear Sky's efforts to grow the format here in Calgary.

6102   Clear Sky Radio President Paul Larsen and I worked together for a couple of years here in Calgary, launching 103.1 The Breeze, and what inspired me to launch that station was the level of integrity that I knew Paul possessed.

6103   I was very aware of his background in country radio, first at Nornet, and then the years that he spent as Assistant Program Director and Music Director at Country 105.

6104   Given his experience, knowledge and passion for country music, and commitment to serving the community, I really had no hesitation in lending my support to Clear Sky's proposed Calgary station.

6105   Country radio is different from any other format. It is real life. It's music that everybody can relate to. It is powerful storytelling. To be successful, you really need to know and understand the lifestyle and values of its core audience -- its core listeners -- and Paul certainly has that knowledge, which, in my opinion, will be invaluable if Clear Sky is successful with this application.

6106   Now, I have also watched and admired Paul's accomplishments over the last five or six years, with his stations in Lethbridge and Medicine Hat. From what I have observed, CJOC and CJCY are part of the DNA of their communities.

6107   They provide essential local news coverage, which is a rarity these days, and are embraced by their listeners. Clear Sky is a very good radio operator.

6108   I would like to share two key aspects of my more recent experience, which I think are relevant to this proceeding: first, working in markets with multiple country stations; and second, media training with country artists, empowering them with the skills to make the biggest impact during their radio and other media opportunities.

6109   When I did mornings in Albuquerque and San Diego, I had a direct format competitor, and there are many examples of markets with multiple successful country stations in the U.S. Many of these markets are similar in size to Calgary, and these country stations not only coexist, they achieve competitive ratings.

6110   Cities like Des Moines, Iowa, Jacksonville, Florida, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, Alabama, Albuquerque, where I spent a couple of years -- in fact, the majority of top 50 stations in the U.S. have multiple country stations.

6111   As you know, Calgary's population is now over 1 million. This is the biggest market in Canada for country music sales, home of The Stampede. Where else can you get pancakes on the street and celebrate country music but right here in Calgary? It is truly the epicentre of country music in this country.

6112   So based on these facts and my knowledge of the city, I strongly believe that, if there is one major market in Canada where two country FM stations can thrive, it is here in Calgary.

6113   The heritage station, Country 105, is very strong, often with top ratings in the market. So they are in good shape to be able to sustain a direct competitor.

6114   From my own experience, I can tell you that there is truth to the old adage "Competition makes us better".

6115   I just finished judging submissions for this year's ACM broadcast awards, something that I mentioned earlier, that I had won this past year, and in many of these U.S. submissions, cities that had multiple country stations, the competition pushed each other to produce world-class radio stations, serving their respective cities. It was, to me, truly remarkable.

6116   Clear Sky is proposing a music mix that will be different from the other two. It will fill a void not currently served by Country 105 or 1060. So country listeners will really benefit from this additional choice, and so will a vast amount of incredibly talented artists.

6117   Finally, I have spent much of my time recently working directly with country music artists, which is a passion of mine. My partner and I have teamed with CMT in Nashville to train artists on how to become the most effective communicators in all of their media opportunities. We empower the artists with the same media skills that we teach major market morning shows across the U.S. and here in Canada. It truly is one of my greatest passions.

6118   Another station playing country music will be good for our music industry in Canada. It will mean more exposure and airplay for artists, who will directly benefit through additional royalties and support.

6119   It is no secret that it is harder today for these artists to get their music on radio, especially in the consolidated world that we live in.

6120   An independent country station in Calgary will be good not only for this market, but also for the Canadian country music industry in general.

6121   In closing, as an experienced industry professional, country music fan, and self-professed artist advocate, I strongly believe that Clear Sky's application would be a great addition to Calgary, and would benefit Canadian country music. Clear Sky has the experience and industry relationships to be successful in this highly competitive market, and I hope the Commission gives this application serious consideration.

6122   Thanks for your time.

6123   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6124   Commissioner Menzies...

6125   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.

6126   I have a question for both of you, really -- and it might not be fair to ask you, but I need to pose it. If Calgary is that big a country music city, which I don't doubt, why is there only one FM country music station and one AM country music station in Calgary?

6127   Are they just too big to take on? Do you have any ideas on that?

6128   MR. DUMAS: That's a good question, and I think the quick answer to that is that it really is a format that you have to understand in order to execute with passion and an understanding of the marketplace.

6129   From a business model standpoint, I am not sure that I am qualified to answer that, but it is a question that I would ask myself, because, truly, when you think of the vast amount of amazing artists that are out there, the artists that are selling, that are doing incredible tours -- Taylor Swift, one of the highest rated tours last year, a country artist; Garth Brooks outselling The Beatles; Shania Twain --

6130   I mean, you could go down the list -- Kenny Chesney --

6131   And if you look at the opportunity that we need to give our Canadian artists -- a showcase, a stage, in order to compete at that level -- I don't know why there hasn't been another country station here.

6132   There should be, because this city, more than any other in the entire nation, I think, can support it. And I have seen it over and over again on population bases in cities of this size in the U.S., where you wouldn't expect country to do as well, but both of those stations are thriving.

6133   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Maybe as a follow-up, is there any empirical data, like CD sales, or anything like that in the city -- or concert bookings, or anything like that?

6134   MS ALDRIDGE: I can speak to the concert booking side of things.

6135   I formerly worked for the largest promoter in Canada, Live Nation Concerts, at one point in time House of Blues, and I was in charge of country music, as well as a few other departments, and we found time and time again that when we were taking large-scale country tours across Canada, Calgary was outselling the other markets two to one.

6136   We would do one arena show for Tim McGraw and Faith Hill in Vancouver, and we would do two nights in Calgary.

6137   So those types of numbers were always something that we kept in mind when we were routing shows, and you would always know that Calgary would be two or three shows, whereas every other market would be one.

6138   That's with one station.

6139   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you, that was helpful.

6140   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Simpson...

6141   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Your company is known as a booking agency, but you also indicated that you are a brokerage. What does that mean?

6142   MS ALDRIDGE: In the past few years, we have started on the brokerage side of things. Basically what that means is, we assist other artists that we don't have on our roster. They are all U.S. artists. Reba McEntire is one. We also did a tour with Kiss.

6143   What we do is, we assist those artists and their agents to properly tour in Canada. They may not be as familiar with the Canadian marketplace, so we can step in, and what we have been able to do is put together a route of smaller venues, sort of that 5,000 to 7,000-seat range, in markets like Dawson Creek and Grande Prairie, that type of thing, and assist these artists in going through those markets, because, unfortunately, their agents are based in L.A. or Nashville, and Canada is just a scary spot on the map, and they don't understand that that 12-hour drive is very difficult.

6144   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Yes, I can understand that.

6145   You mentioned that this is your company's way of being able to give back to an industry that has been good to you. Do I take that to mean, or correctly assume, that other than your out-of-pocket costs, this is not a profit-making exercise for you in helping out the station?

6146   MS ALDRIDGE: No, not at all.

6147   I mean, developing new country talent or a new country start in Canada is something that we believe in.

6148   We are very, very fortunate to have an amazing roster of talent as is, and we like to keep it small and boutique, but we are also very open to new talent, whether they are with our agency or with another, because at the end of the day, they are helping to bring more fans into this genre. They are going out and touring with some of our artists, which is beneficial, because it is helping our artists fill arenas, as well.

6149   But, no, not at all, it's not a profit-making exercise.

6150   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Mr. Dumas, do you know how many guys in radio wished their careers ended where you are?

6151   I think you have done a pretty good -- I am familiar with your career, and you have done a pretty admirable job of managing your own affairs, let alone helping other clients.

6152   That said, I have two questions. Will you be participating, in some form, in helping this station get going, if it gets the nod from the Commission?

6153   MR. DUMAS: No, my interest is in Paul's integrity in launching the station.

6154   My radio career I basically put an end to with winning the ACM award last year. So I am not getting up at 3:30 in the morning for the foreseeable future, and waking up with my nine-year-old and taking her to school is really the direction that I am going, and mentoring radio stations and talent along the way is the next leg of my career.

6155   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Canada being a whole lot, or substantially different in obligations that Canadian broadcasters have to apply to the development of Canadian talent, would you just give us a 60-second view, from your experience, as to how country stations and country artists interact, because it has been my experience, from the State side at least, that they have quite a synergistic relationship.

6156   MR. DUMAS: Truly, and I think that is really the magic that has kept me in country music my entire career, because it really is symbiotic.

6157   And the same thing exists in Canada; not on such a large scale, but you can see that even with the CCMA award show that happened this year. They had one of the largest ratings they have ever had, well over 1 million people. And to get a million people watching any television show today is pretty remarkable, and they achieved that.

6158   The relationship is one of mentoring, it is this kind of development, which I think is also incredible, but it's teaching, it's songwriting.

6159   In the United States, they have something called The Country Radio Seminar, which is coming up pretty soon, and it is, fundamentally, a foundation for radio and all of the artists in the genre to interact and to help support not only the industry from a radio standpoint, but from an artist standpoint.

6160   It exists in Canada, thanks to the CCMA and other programs across the country, but I think that's what makes country music unique from any other format, is the support system that we have put in place, both here and in the United States.

6161   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you.

6162   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming in.

6163   Madam Ventura, we have one last intervenor?

6164   THE SECRETARY: We do. I would invite Robert Tremills to come forward.

--- Pause

6165   THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we hear from Mr. Tremills, just to let you know, we will be beginning Phase 4 after lunch. I would say 1:15, but let's wait until after this presentation.

6166   But, just to let you know, Phase IV will be commencing this afternoon.

6167   Thank you.

6168   Mr. Tremills, we are all yours.

INTERVENTION

6169   MR. TREMILLS: Thank you.

6170   My name is Robert Tremills, but I am professionally known as Trey Mills.

6171   Before moving to Calgary over four years ago, I worked in the music business, based in Toronto, for over 15 years. I was fortunate enough to work alongside some of the world's finest Grammy-winning producers, such as Dixon Van Winkle, who recorded Paul McCartney, Frank Sinatra, Elton John, and Van Morrison; another producer, Jay Saks, one of the world's most decorated Grammy-winning producers in the classical field; and Nick Blagona, who engineered and mixed The Police, Deep Purple, The Bee Gees, Chicago and Cat Stevens.

6172   With this experience, I went on to produce Grammy-nominated artists, such as world-renown Canadian Brass, a quintet that includes some of the best brass players in the world, and I discovered and developed Grammy-nominee Melanie Fiona, who is one of Canada's few urban artists, to break through to the top of the charts in the U.S. and the U.K.

6173   One of the great things about the 10K20 program is the freedom for artists to create the music they want to create, along with the guidance of Neil McGonigal.

6174   You may be familiar with Neil, who is perhaps Calgary's most respected music industry veteran. He was Jann Arden's manager for many years, while he also worked with K.D. Lang. He offers free advice and counselling to each artist in the program, giving all participants the opportunity to get the answers to the many mysteries of the music business.

6175   The effects of the 10K20 program ripple far beyond the artists themselves, as this money generally gets spent on the infrastructure of our local music business.

6176   For example, in the fall of 2010, I was the first to record in the newly built station recording studio, a state of the art space that includes a grand piano and all of the outboard gear and microphones that a producer could ask for.

6177   Historically, if a local artist managed to put together a decent recording budget, they would look toward Vancouver, L.A., or Nashville to record, but now people do it here because there is enough business to sustain high-quality facilities, and producers and engineers are not only making a living, we are getting better at what we do.

6178   Along the way, many musicians and graphic artists are hired, CDs are manufactured, and then artists climb into the promotions business to support their projects. The entire level of competition has risen dramatically, and we are building our economy, while creating culture and a vibrant musical community.

6179   There has been tremendous growth in our music scene over the past few years, and while the global music industry has been in a tailspin, programs like this help keep our artists alive.

6180   The 10K20 philosophy is to support a great number of artists, at various levels of development, with a transparent and democratic process.

6181   One artist helped through the program is Jessie-James Cameron and his band Makeshift Innocence, whom some of you may have seen this past Saturday night. Jessie was homeless from the age of 15 to 18, but he had a dream of making music. He continues to live in Calgary now, but recently signed a partnership agreement with Los Angeles-based Pangea International, whose founders were instrumental in the careers of Adele, Coldplay, LMFAO, Muse, Dido, Jessie J, and many, many more.

6182   Now Jessie and his band are touring into Europe and the U.S., as well as Canada, and Jessie now mentors many local musicians when he is not on the road.

6183   I am a longstanding member of SOCAN, Music Managers Forum, CMMRA, Alberta Music, Music Calgary, and founder of the Calgary Music Awards. You would be hard pressed to find anyone more deeply involved in the local music scene. I ask for you to support Rawlco's application for a new station here in Calgary.

6184   Thank you.

6185   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. The Jessie-James Cameron story is absolutely amazing. Good to hear.

6186   Commissioner Simpson, do you have any questions?

6187   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Yes, I do.

6188   Mr. Tremills, that's quite a c.v., very impressive.

6189   The industry had been in a tailspin, perhaps parts of it are and parts of it are actually growing, as we heard earlier from other artists, but what was the principal reason why you picked up roots and came to Calgary? What is happening here that attracted you?

6190   MR. TREMILLS: As I mentioned, I was in Toronto mostly, so to be perfectly honest, it was a lifestyle decision -- not being stuck in traffic; a lot of friendly people; it has a small-town feel, which I didn't feel in Toronto.

6191   Toronto was a good place for me to get the experience that I have, but every time I came through Calgary, I was knocked out with the talent. There is incredible talent here, and a strong community, and I felt that I could really be a part of that, and I love living here.

6192   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: You were saying in your presentation that what Calgary had been missing was infrastructure. Studios are not always the only place where talent can be developed, given the technology today. You can, you know, produce a pretty playable CD in your basement, if you needed to or wanted to.

6193   With respect to what Rawlco is bringing to the table, because this is a radio station licence application, and there is money to be spent in the development of artists, what do you feel is the key element that caused you to take your good name and your reputation and attach it to theirs?

6194   What is the one resonant thing that struck you about what they are doing?

6195   MR. TREMILLS: I think that they are committed to empowering the artists themselves, and as many as they can, because there is a tremendous amount of talent here.

6196   And they are supporting artists at many levels. There are some very talented but young musicians, so this will record an entire project.

6197   There are some extremely established artists, and this can help top-up the funds.

6198   But it's a question of -- that they support many artists, so they are essentially supporting the community, and our community is getting to be very, very strong.

6199   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Have you had occasion to listen to what they are doing with the NOW! format in Edmonton at all?

6200   MR. TREMILLS: Yes.

6201   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Given that it's not just an interactive, it's really a dialogue format, is the ability to tap in as an artist to what they are doing, particularly through the website, and to actually see the conversations that are going on helpful to an artist, just seeing an audience's response to their work?

6202   MR. TREMILLS: I'm sorry, could you clarify -- were you asking about Up! 97 in Calgary or NOW! in Edmonton?

6203   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: NOW!

6204   MR. TREMILLS: To be honest, I am not as familiar with NOW! in Edmonton.

6205   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Because that is the format that is being --

6206   MR. TREMILLS: Of course.

6207   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

6208   THE CHAIRPERSON: There are no further questions from anyone else.

6209   Thank you very much, Mr. Tremills.

6210   MR. TREMILLS: Thank you.

6211   THE CHAIRPERSON: Nice having you here.

6212   Madam Ventura, let's come back at 1:15.

6213   We will see you all back at 1:15 for Phase IV.

--- Upon recessing at 1158

--- Upon resuming at 1320

6214   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, guys. Nice to have you back.

6215   Madam Ventura...?

6216   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6217   We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their applications.

6218   Applicants appear in reverse order. We will begin with Corus Entertainment Inc. on behalf of its wholly owned subsidiary CKIK-FM Limited.

6219   Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

REPLY

6220   MR. PANDOFF: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.

6221   I am Chris Pandoff, President of Corus Radio.

6222   With me today on the panel, on my left, is Doug Rutherford, Vice President for Alberta Radio for Corus Radio;

6223   On Doug's left Sylvie Courtemanche, Vice President, Government Relations for Corus Entertainment;

6224   On my right is Greg Landgraf, Senior Engineering Manager for Corus Radio for western Canada; and

6225   On Greg's right is Gary Maavara, Executive Vice President and General Counsel for Corus Entertainment.

6226   Let me also reintroduce John Vos, who is sitting in the first row to my left, as Program Director of CHQR-AM.

6227   Sitting next to John is Phil Colson, Program Director of our Alberta FM brands. Phil is appropriately wearing a "Cares For Kids Radiothon" which is currently on in its second day here in Calgary.

6228   Mr. Chair, we are delighted to have the opportunity to provide our reply comments.

6229   First of all, we would like to thank the more than 40 supporting intervenors who took the time to write in to support our application to amend our QR77 AM licence in order to add an FM rebroadcast transmitter at 106.9 MHz to allow people in downtown Calgary to hear our programming.

6230   The intervenors represent a wide cross section of the community, from elected representatives at the local, provincial and national levels, numerous charitable and non-profit groups, the local business community, to individual listeners who value the news/talk format that we provide.

6231   These interventions demonstrate the broad and deep support for approval of this application to improve QR77's signal in downtown Calgary.

6232   Today we would like to reply to comments made by Multicultural Broadcasting in Phase II of these proceedings. We have four points to make.

6233   The first point relates to the statement by Multicultural Broadcasting that Corus has described 106.7 MHz the primary frequency used by Multicultural Broadcasting for its ethnic radio service as an inferior frequency.

6234   It may be that we were misunderstood. In fact, Corus said that this signal does not represent the optimum frequency for a new radio service, especially a stand-alone station, since it does not offer full coverage of the City of Calgary.

6235   We are not the only part at this proceeding to share this point of view. Two other applicants for ethnic radio services, Unison Media and Alberta Mosaic, have also argued that ethnic populations are distributed in all four quadrants of the City of Calgary and that they need the coverage provided by 95.3 MHz to properly serve all the various ethnic communities of this city.

6236   Moreover, they said that full coverage of the city is required to ensure the viability of a proposed stand-alone ethnic radio service and we agree.

6237   Multicultural Broadcasting itself supported the view that 95.3 MHz provides superior coverage and that they would be very happy to operate on this frequency.

6238   So there seems to be unanimity on the point.

6239   It is interesting to note that Multicultural Broadcasting was the only applicant in this proceeding to propose a new stand-alone radio service at 106.7 MHz.

6240   More importantly, Multicultural Broadcasting said that they picked this frequency in anticipation of the likelihood that the Commission would prefer to utilize 95.3 MHz for an English-language Category 2 radio service. By picking 106.7 MHz, Multicultural Broadcasting was, in essence, hedging its bets by making what amounts to a strategic licensing decision. They did not believe this Commission would be prepared to award an ethnic service an FM frequency that would provide full coverage of the city and opted for second best as a means of ensuring the Commission's approval to their application.

6241   Corus' consulting engineers proposed 106.9 MHz for a nest on the basis of certain key elements.

6242   First, the signal would need to rectify QR77's signal deficiencies in the downtown core, without extending the signal outside the city core.

6243   Second, the proposed parameters would have to reflect the limitations of what is required for a nesting signal, as well as have the ability to address the second adjacency issues.

6244   Third, the signal should not have a material impact on other existing radio services.

6245   106.9 MHz achieves all of these key objectives quite well.

6246   Corus believes that any stand-alone radio service, and especially a stand-alone ethnic radio service, will face enough challenges without having to content with coverage limitations inherent in the frequency.

6247   The second point relates to the statement by Multicultural Broadcasting that Corus advocated that they be relegated to the AM band, but no, we did not say that either.

6248   In its written intervention, opposing Corus' nesting application, Multicultural Broadcasting argued that Corus should not be granted the opportunity to have its application considered in the context of the current proceeding.

6249   In Corus' written reply dated September 19, 2011, Corus argued that its application should be heard since the Commission could entertain a number of licensing options as a result of this proceeding.

6250   One of the licensing options proposed by Corus was that Multicultural Broadcasting could have its service approved using 95.3 MHz or a frequency on the AM band, since both of these options had already been proposed in their application.

6251   Corus was not attempting to relegate this applicant to the AM band, but was merely trying to ensure that its technical amendment application would be heard during this proceeding and we did so by simply suggesting options that had been proposed by Multicultural Broadcasting itself.

6252   MR. LANDGRAF: The third point to which we would like to respond is Multicultural Broadcasting's contention that they had no problem receiving QR77's signal in similar areas and along similar routes in Calgary.

6253   Multicultural Broadcasting makes this allegation without providing a shred of evidence. All they provide is an anecdotal reference.

6254   Corus has provided, for the written record, the results of two Vision Critical surveys conducted in 2007 and 2009, as well as the results of its own 2011 station-initiated survey.

6255   As we noted in our presentation yesterday, we had 750 respondents to our survey which identified issues with reception, as well as the locations where those difficulties occurred, and a description of the reception problem experienced.

6256   One would expect greater deference to the station's audience, the people who have first-hand experience of the problem.

6257   Finally, Corus provided, for the record, reception recordings of QR77's signal made with a high quality Tivoli receiver in nine different locations in downtown Calgary. No other applicant has disputed Corus' evidence with respect to the impairment of it's AM station signal in the downtown core.

6258   In fact, another applicant cited their own engineering study that supported the position that AM frequencies are compromised in the downtown core.

6259   We understand why Multicultural Broadcasting is making the statement as our nest plan represents a barrier for entry.

6260   Fourth, one of the alternative licensing scenarios proposed by Multicultural Broadcasting was the Corus us 107.9 MHz at low power by placing a transmitter on a high-rise in downtown Calgary. According to this applicant, this proposal would not cause any NavCom issues. This suggestion is made without any supporting technical analysis.

6261   In fact, this is not a realistic option at all. In proposing this solution, Multicultural Broadcasting failed to consider the difficulties associated with third adjacencies that are not co-located. Placing a signal in downtown Calgary at a third adjacent frequency to Q107, which broadcasts from the CBC site, could cause severe interference problems that would be difficult to rectify.

6262   If Corus were to co-locate the transmitters at the CBC site, we would then run into NavCom issues.

6263   MR. PANDOFF: At the end of the day it is the public interest that must be served. The Commission must ask if the ordinary Calgary listener would understand why this nesting solution should be denied to them because spectrum allocation has become an acute problem with the proliferation of new radio services.

6264   The question of "why now" would simply not be understood by the general public, who neither understand the licensing process nor the policies that are in play. They would simply say that they can't hear the signal and why do we have to wait for a solution.

6265   We believe Calgarians and, more importantly, the segment of the population served by QR77 that are not targeted by the other applicants deserve access to our programming in all of Calgary.

6266   We also believe that the approval would benefit the system by solving the listening problem and ensuring that QR77 can continue to serve the market with its news/talk programming.

6267   We understand the Commission has some hard decisions to make in this hearing. This is the very nature of a beauty pageant proceedings but, as we noted in our written reply, the Commission has many licensing alternatives that could introduce greater diversity of format, as well as diversity of ownership and still allow QR77 to nest its signal on 106.9 MHz.

6268   Again, thank you for your time and consideration. We would be happy to answer any further questions you may have. We wish you the best in your deliberations.

6269   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your kind wishes.

6270   A couple of things.

6271   Page 7, paragraph 14, December 19. In your verbal presentation you mentioned September.

6272   MR. PANDOFF: Oh, I'm sorry, yes. Okay, yes. It reads December --

6273   THE CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, September or December?

6274   MR. PANDOFF: It's December.

6275   THE CHAIRPERSON: December. Very well.

--- Pause

6276   THE CHAIRPERSON: Page 9 you had a little typo, "broadcasting", it's "broadcaseting". Ce n'est pas grave. That's not an issue.

6277   MS COURTEMANCHE: I know. J'ai dit ça, Monsieur le président. My eagle eyes didn't work last night. It was a little late.

6278   THE CHAIRPERSON: Page 10. The text reads, third line, "would cause severe interference" and in the verbal you said "could".

6279   MS COURTEMANCHE: Yes. We meant to say -- it's could.

6280   THE CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it's "could"?

6281   MS COURTEMANCHE: Yes.

6282   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6283   Just a brief note, I understand we are here to serve the system, to serve the public, but it's a little more complicated, paragraph 23. You know, why know and the general public wouldn't understand licensing processes and wouldn't understand policies.

6284   I understand that, that's a given and a sophisticated outfit such as Corus would understand that as well I think.

6285   That's the point that I wanted to make on that. Okay.

6286   Commissioner Simpson...?

6287   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Nothing.

6288   THE CHAIRPERSON: No questions?

6289   Peter...?

6290   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: No.

6291   THE CHAIRPERSON: No? Mr. Petrone...?

6292   That's it. Thank you so much.

6293   MR. PANDOFF: Thank you.

6294   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Rawlco Radio Limited to come forward.

--- Pause

6295   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself for the record, after which you have 10 minutes.

6296   Thank you.

REPLY

6297   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Gordon Rawlinson of Rawlco.

6298   I am not sitting in the back row because I'm afraid, I just thought it would be easier for the transition.

6299   We have no reply. We think it's been a good hearing and all the issues have been fully discussed, so we just want to say thank you and we would answer any questions if you had any.

6300   Thank you.

6301   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: I just wanted to say, Mr. Rawlinson, that I did fulfil my obligation and I tuned in bright and early this morning to your station as prescribed.

6302   THE CHAIRPERSON: So did I, by the by, and just a couple of clarifications.

6303   In your submission in terms of emerging artists, am I correct in understanding that it was 15 percent that you were offering the Commission?

6304   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes.

6305   THE CHAIRPERSON: And I also understood correctly yesterday --

6306   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: At a minimum, yes.

6307   THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry?

6308   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: I'm sorry. At a minimum, yes.

6309   THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

6310   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes. At a minimum 15 percent.

6311   THE CHAIRPERSON: At a minimum 15 percent.

6312   And I also understood yesterday because you had, I don't know, maybe 20 banquette, billboards up there with, I don't know, it looked like hundreds of CDs that you collaborated in your 10K20 project, if I'm not mistaken, and it was also my understanding that on your Edmonton station, which you basically want to transplant to Calgary as well, that you not only contributed in producing those CDs, but that you played that music on a regular basis?

6313   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: I think the answer is that some of the music is played that fits. I wouldn't say we play a huge amount of it, but we do play a fair amount.

6314   Of the total amount on all -- we had billboards up for three stations and we didn't break it out specifically, but I think that the figure that we came up with was about 80 percent of the music from those CDs on the three stations had been played.

6315   THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to remember, we saw so many stations over the past few days, your Edmonton station that you were going to sort of use that format in Calgary --

6316   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes.

6317   THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- what is the call sign for that station?

6318   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: The Edmonton station is CKNO.

6319   THE CHAIRPERSON: And what you call it, 100.3?

6320   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: It's 102.3, yes. The Edmonton station we are talking about?

6321   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

6322   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes. Yes, it's 102.3 NOW! Radio.

6323   THE CHAIRPERSON: NOW! Radio, that's it.

6324   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes.

6325   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Everybody has all these funky names, NOW!, YES, Joyce, whatever, it's hard to keep track of all of them.

6326   Have you also committed to play on the NOW! 15 percent emerging artists as a minimum?

6327   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: On the --

6328   THE CHAIRPERSON: 102.3 NOW!, your Edmonton, yes.

6329   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes. We think we're actually playing about 25 percent.

6330   THE CHAIRPERSON: Emerging artists?

6331   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Emerging artists, yes. Twenty-five percent of our Canadian is emerging, but we also --

6332   THE CHAIRPERSON: Twenty-five percent of 35 percent is emerging on your 102.3 NOW!?

6333   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Twenty-five percent of 40 percent is emerging.

6334   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6335   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes, and we said 15 per cent here as a minimum just to be safe, but that's what we're actually doing right now.

6336   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Can I ask for another undertaking? Because I too, like Commissioner Simpson, had a little listen last night, a little listen this morning and a really short listen after lunch. I was wondering if we can get your playlist for last week on 102.3 NOW!, if we can ask for that undertaking --

6337   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Sure.

6338   THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- and if you could identify the emerging artists that you played last week.

6339   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Okay. Yes.

Undertaking

6340   THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that all right?

6341   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Yes. Sure.

6342   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Létourneau, ça va? Is that good?

6343   MS LÉTOURNEAU: Yes.

6344   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That's it. Thank you so much. You make me feel bad, you're sitting in the second row.

--- Laughter

6345   THE CHAIRPERSON: Really! Is it that bad up here?

6346   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: It was great. Thank you.

6347   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6348   MR. GORDON RAWLINSON: Thank you very much.

6349   THE CHAIRPERSON: See you soon. Thanks so much.

6350   Madam Ventura.

6351   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

6352   I would now invite 7954689 Canada Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

6353   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

REPLY

6354   MR. CONNELL: Thank you very much.

6355   Working from the far right end of the table:

6356   - Nicolas Tétrault, managing partner of the company;

6357   - next to him is Mr. David Bray, media consultant;

6358   - Paul Tietolman, another managing partner of Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy;

6359   - next to me is Rajiv Pancholy, managing partner, Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy;

6360   - and on my left, Dale Brown from Grant Thornton's Calgary office.

6361   I would also like to point out to the Commission that they had requested some research documentation from Mr. Bray. That documentation has been presented to the staff.

6362   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6363   MR. CONNELL: And I have been asked to be very careful about blocking anybody who might be sitting behind me.

--- Laughter

6364   MR. CONNELL: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a goal. We have a mission statement, if you will, and that is to offer a new choice and a diverse musical experience to residents of the growing City of Calgary. It's a challenge that 795 has set for itself, a challenge that we believe we can meet.

6365   We're proud of the format we've created here to accomplish our goal of a diverse, entertaining and informative listener experience for the people of Calgary.

6366   In summary, a commitment to:

6367   - 40 percent Canadian content;

6368   - 15 percent emerging artists;

6369   - an on-air music library of more than 2,000 tracks, many times the size of most radio station playlists;

6370   - a healthy CCD commitment of more than $5 million.

6371   We have an experienced management team with great success in creating this kind of radio in the past.

6372   Our application, we feel, is the most comprehensive. We are the only applicant that has brought to the table a professional, scientifically sound market survey performed by the Calgary office of the number one polling firm in the country, Leger Marketing, a Gold Seal member of the Market Research and Intelligence Association, which sets the standards and methodologies by which market surveys are conducted.

6373   No other applicant has conducted such a credible survey of the Calgary market. We therefore believe that our proposal firmly reflects the needs of the Calgary audience.

6374   David Bray is a nationally respected radio consultant who has put together solid conservative research data regarding the playlist, the programming concept, the ratings projections and the analysis of those. We're the only team that has submitted such detailed research.

6375   Our business plan has been developed in concern with and reviewed by one of the largest and most respected accounting firms in the country, Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton, and their Grant Thornton office represented on our panel today by Dale Brown.

6376   The effort we've taken to assemble a best-in-class team, we believe, is a testament to our commitment to delivering a quality product to the people of Calgary.

6377   We are the only refreshingly different music application that you have before you and we ask you to give us the 100.3 frequency and give the people of Calgary the choice.

6378   In summary, we're an experienced yet entrepreneurial team, we're diverse yet cohesive, it's a team bound by an unshakable conviction that success starts and ends with offering a quality product.

6379   We hope you sense our passion and commitment and we hope that by granting us a licence you will give a new and independent voice to Calgary.

6380   At this time, we welcome any questions you may have.

6381   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6382   Commissioner Patrone.

6383   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: I do not have any questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, though.

6384   THE CHAIRPERSON: Briefly, I understand you're an experienced management team with great success in the past, and that was mentioned and highlighted by Mr. Tietolman yesterday, but that was quite a few years ago, I would even say decades ago, and that was a formula that may have worked 30 years ago.

6385   How would it work today, in today's environment, which is, anyone would admit, different, Mr. Tietolman?

6386   MR. TIETOLMAN: Thirty years ago is a bit past, for sure. Since then I've worked as a consultant. I've actually been in front of the CRTC many times. I have acted in consultancy for Télémédia, which is a large broadcast company that now belongs to Astral. I've had clients right across Canada, the States and the Caribbean in just about every conceivable format or problem situation.

6387   I applied myself, with a partnership group, for the 95.1 FM frequency in Montreal at the time, and we've worked tirelessly trying to save broadcast properties that have been confronted by mergers, confronted by problems in different markets.

6388   So it's not that we're living in the past. We are very current and very topical, we think, and we think we understand the market and we base everything on research. And as you can see, I do not take the lead word. I follow the advice and the consultancy of many expert professionals in different fields that are directly linked to the success of any broadcast project we take on.

6389   THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, Mr. Tietolman. I appreciate your efforts across North America and elsewhere.

6390   Some might say you guys have no base in Calgary, you don't know the community, you're not part of the community. How do you respond to that?

6391   MR. TIETOLMAN: Very simply. When it came to the financials, the accounting, we rely on a Calgary office of the same parent firm. Mr. Bray has been in the Calgary market before and has much experience in this Calgary market.

6392   I mean I could not -- I'll be very honest -- with all my experience, sit in front of you and honourably and honestly, with integrity, tell you names of some of the artists that he knows, that he's researched, that he is in contact with, because he's a musician, a composer and also a producer, not just a broadcast executive or a consultant. He's done that as well.

6393   So basically speaking, the strength of an organization is not one individual, it's spread over many people.

6394   Secondly, we're trying to develop a new generation of management people. Same thing with on-air personnel. Obviously, it's got to be a balanced mix between my grey hair and their black hair, my bald spot and their full head of hair.

6395   And at the same time, just to add to that, we're very conscious of the Calgary market. We have stated very clearly that even amongst our news people we insist to hire interns, to bring people in from the multicultural communities, from the Aboriginal communities, to work part-time and full-time with us so we can cover every corner of this city and every population grouping in this city.

6396   MR. CONNELL: If I could interject --

6397   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I also asked this question -- I'm sorry, Mr. Connell, go ahead.

6398   MR. CONNELL: I think another part of the answer to that question goes to our reference to the surveys done by Leger Marketing and by David Bray's organization.

6399   I mean you're right, we don't have on-the-ground experience in Calgary at this point, but anybody coming into a new market has to rely on getting the best possible market research to construct a format like this.

6400   And I think we've done that. I think we've -- in all cases, whether it's the financials, whether it's the BBM, whether it is the wants and needs of the Calgary market, I think we've gone with top-notch research down the line.

6401   THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think I asked this question yesterday, but I think I asked it of Mr. Rawlinson and others.

6402   What are your staff -- what kind of staff do you plan on hiring? Do you have a -- I think Commissioner Simpson could use a body count, but do you have a number of employees that would be --

6403   MR. PANCHOLY: We are looking at hiring approximately 25 people to start with.

6404   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6405   MR. PANCHOLY: In addition to this, I think it's worth pointing out -- and maybe this didn't come across in the hearing on previous days -- that one way in which we are going to distinguish ourselves is we actually plan to bring news back into our format, local news coverage. It's something that we didn't amplify enough.

6406   And just to give you some numbers, 10 resources, most of them on a full-time basis, will be dedicated to 24/7 news coverage in Calgary, and that's another part of our commitment.

6407   THE CHAIRPERSON: Now that I have you, Mr. Pancholy, on the mike, why would you put yourself at an economic disadvantage by only asking for 7,800 watts as opposed to 21,000 or whatever is available?

6408   Much may be said about Calgarians and the fact that they leave the city on the weekends and they go out to the country and they're skiing and they're a couple of hours away, and if you had 25,000 watts or whatever the maximum is, you would have access to all these people, and at 7,800, you don't.

6409   Why would you put yourself in that situation?

6410   MR. PANCHOLY: When we were working on the technical scenarios, there were a couple of constraints. One of the constraints I think we discussed was potential interference with Golden West's signal.

6411   The second one is just basic operating expenses and the fact that, being a newcomer, we want to, obviously, minimize the up-front capital expenses, so infrastructure sharing is an objective option for us.

6412   So between the best possible performance that you can get, and obviously, the more power you have, the better off you are, which is also trying to minimize up-front expenses. This was the best compromise we came with, and we're comfortable with it.

6413   THE CHAIRPERSON: It wouldn't be worth to go to 25,000 or whatever it is. Is that --

6414   MR. PANCHOLY: Not at the moment.

6415   And I think, you know, one of the choices we made consciously is yes, it is true that, you know, the wider the contour you have, in theory, the better the product you have, but there's another way of looking at it, sir, and that is, maybe in a more limited contour maybe the money's better spent on the programming and the content. And we have elected to make the trade-off.

6416   So it's not purely an engineering decision; it's a business decision that we have made.

6417   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Commissioner Simpson.

6418   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: This particular aspect of the hearing is usually designed specifically to deal with rebuttals and not as much, you know, the line of questioning that we're getting into.

6419   But with that said, other applicants for this licence, we've heard a lot about synergies because of other stations that they operate. We've heard a lot about synergies of having two sticks in a market.

6420   From what I understand, as much as I've read about your organization, you have neither at this point but are coming in de novo into this marketplace. And the economics of radio and the value of licences aside, you know, one of the things I learned in business is that it's a lot -- it's a lot more predictable in terms of gauging turnaround and profitably, buying an existing operating business rather than a start-up.

6421   And I'm wondering what has stirred in your soul to the point where it brought a very diverse and well-heeled group together into this market to do a start-up with a single stick with no synergies. What is it that you are seeing that makes you come here?

6422   MR. PANCHOLY: I think the best way to answer the question is we are entrepreneurs and we believe that, you know, we can create substantial value.

6423   If you look at the experience of most of us on this team, you will find that that's one common thread that runs across. And for a moment, if you'll excuse my dropping my humility, I would daresay we've been very successful at that.

6424   We understand the risks. We have weighed them, we have reflected on them. And I would add to that that a lot of the investment that will go into this is our own personal -- our own assets.

6425   So it's not a decision we made lightly, sir.

6426   MR. TIETOLMAN: This morning in The Globe and Mail there was a report on the growth of populations in different parts of Canada, and they were featuring and highlighting the explosive growth of the western Canadian areas.

6427   They started with British Columbia, but the highlight was Alberta. Calgary was a highlight city of all the population centres.

6428   Secondly, when we took a close, careful look at the revenue for the full envelope of radio spending on advertising in Calgary, prior to the economic downturn of 2008-2009 broadcast year, the increases annually were 10 and 12 and 13 percent, which is astronomical if you compare it to any other market in Canada.

6429   Sure, it's moving back. It hasn't grown. But it's regaining what it lost. But in the next couple of years, we sincerely believe it's going to grow way beyond that.

6430   Secondly, when we did our projections, we were basing everything on 2010 figures. Right now, the 2011 figures show a growth of approximately almost $3 million. That is more than we project in our first year of full operation -- first full year of operation. And if we move on and, you know, conservatively say what time it will take for us to get on the air, there may be another year of growth under the figures as we see them today, beyond the figures we see them today.

6431   So we feel very confident that we're capable. Thank God we have good financing, we have good back-up.

6432   Dale Brown can even illustrate how we have, you know, fall-back financially if anything, economic downturn, extreme competition pressure. We can do it, survive, get over the hump and keep our promise and commitment 100 percent.

6433   We understand that and we respect that. Absolutely.

6434   MR. TÉTRAULT: There is maybe another point I'd like to make, is that we've arranged in Montreal a new business deal in which we rent towers and -- existing towers in which we will save roughly three to four million, which is a lot of money that we're saving in Montreal and that we can re-inject within the Calgary market.

6435   Also, you must know that the three managing partners will have a very light management structure for the partners. Paul Tietolman, Mr. Pancholy and I were fortunate enough to be quite independent financially, so we are not going to add tremendous financial pressure on the radio stations for our salaries, but we will use this margin to manoeuvre to hire the best people to manage our radio stations with us.

6436   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you.

6437   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen.

6438   MR. TIETOLMAN: Thanks for the opportunity of appearing before you today.

6439   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

6440   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Clear Sky Radio Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

6441   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself for the record, and you have 10 minutes.

6442   Thank you.

REPLY

6443   MR. LARSEN: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

6444   Good afternoon. I'm Paul Larsen, President of Clear Sky Radio. I just wanted to take a moment to say we're very happy with the public record as it reflects our application, and we really have nothing further to add.

6445   I would, on the record, just like to thank all the intervenors who took time to write letters for us and to Cliff Dumas and Erin Aldridge, who appeared on our behalf today, and also to thank my staff, Casey Wilson, Lorene Halseth, Michelle Steele, Pat Siedlecki and Brent Young, for appearing on our panel.

6446   Madam Secretary, legal CRTC staff, thanks as always for your time before the hearing and during. It's always invaluable.

6447   And Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, thank you as well. It's been a well run hearing, a lot of open dialogue, which is kind of appreciated by us as an applicant, actually, and the first time I've been in front of a number of you. And it's been good to get to know you a bit better.

6448   So have a safe trip home and if there is a question or two, I'm happy to answer them.

6449   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much for the flowers, and we try and get as much information as possible. We try to, you know, be as well informed as possible because deciding isn't easy, obviously.

6450   Questions? No?

6451   MR. LARSEN: Thank you very much.

6452   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6453   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Bell Media Calgary Radio Partnership to come forward.

--- Pause

6454   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself for the record, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

6455   Thank you.

REPLY

6456   MR. GORDON: Thank you.

6457   Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, thank you for giving us the opportunity to make some closing remarks relating to our application for a new hip-hop and R&B station to be known as Flow 95.3.

6458   My name is Chris Gordon. With me today, to my left, your right, is Kevin Goldstein. Beside Kevin is Lenore Gibson. To my immediate right is David Corey, and to his right is Eric Stafford.

6459   At the outset, we'd like to note that we have filed our written responses to the two undertakings we gave during our appearance on Tuesday.

6460   We'd also like to take this opportunity to thank the almost 100 intervenors who wrote in to support our application, three of which appeared before you earlier today and spoke so passionately about what our proposed station will bring to this market. We truly appreciate all their support and efforts.

6461   When we appeared before you earlier in the week, there was a number of questions relating to whether a hip-hop and R&B station could work in Calgary. We are here today to assure you that not only a station like Flow 95.3 can work in Calgary, that it absolutely will.

6462   I think I noted on Tuesday that I used to live here. I moved here almost 25 years ago, and at that time, this was definitely a rock and roll and country city. But times change, and so do market demographics, as witnessed by the census just recently released.

6463   You only need to walk around this city to see how vibrant and multi-cultural this city has become, and young Calgarians who make up the single largest demographic in the city want to listen to music that will be on the kind of radio station that we're proposing.

6464   This fact is strongly supported by our market research. We played a number of musical montages to the people who participated in the study. The montage that ranked as the most popular with 69 percent of respondents between the ages of 19 to 24 consisted of hip-hop and R&B music.

6465   It's not rhythmic CHR; it's hip-hop and R&B. The reason our supplementary brief says rhythmic CHR is because that's the radio format that hip-hop and R&B fit into, but what we tested and what we'll play on this radio station is hip-hop and R&B.

6466   Mr. Chair, on Tuesday you asked our panel why young adults would choose to listen to our station as opposed to their iPod. This is a question that all of us in this room have struggled with since Sony created the Walkman.

6467   Someone who wants to listen to their own music will always listen to their own music. That was the case 30 years ago and, of course, it's the case today.

6468   Our struggle today is to repatriate listeners who abandoned radio for replacement technology. Internet radio services, subscription audio like RDO, Rah-Rah, there's a new one every week. This just isn't Bell Media's challenge; it's a challenge for the whole industry because if radio tuning continues to decline as the population ages, we're obsolete.

6469   So how do we go about reversing the trend? The answer is just not to throw up our hands and say those listeners are lost; let's just serve the aging demographic who are loyal to radio.

6470   In our view, what we need to do is offer a product that couples the music young adults want to hear with the type of social interaction that is just an integral part of their lives.

6471   It's more than being on Facebook and Twitter. Everybody does that. It's not using your phone to request a song or text message. Radio's being doing that in some form or another for decades. What I'm referring to is a 360 degree hyper-local co-listening experience.

6472   Co-listening and co-viewing are the terms used to describe new technology in development for radio and television that creates an interactive experience around the broadcast content, so when a 22 year old in Calgary is listening to our station, they can communicate with their friends, discuss the content, other things in their lives and in their own discussion forums within a wall garden.

6473   They can purchase music, they can talk to other people, they can interact with artists and also access information about upcoming concerts.

6474   It's like Facebook, Twitter, streaming music and spoken word content all wrapped into one.

6475   This type of service will be available to our listeners on their Smartphones and tablets and computers anywhere with internet or WiFi access.

6476   What I've described is currently being tested for both television and radio, and the early results are astonishing. What we're seeing is that listeners and viewers stay much longer with the medium when co-listening or co-viewing, and this type of application is going to be critical for broadcasters as we compete with new, unregulated competitors in the future.

6477   As many applicants have noted this week, there are only two available FM frequencies in the Calgary market. We firmly believe that awarding the use of these frequencies, the Commission should look for the application that makes the most new innovative proposal and that has the potential to move radio forward as a medium.

6478   We have put forward such a proposal.

6479   While others have looked at tweak existing formats and approaches, only Bell Media has come forward with something that isn't already being done in the market or pretty much anywhere else, for that matter.

6480   Finally, in terms of the frequencies the Commission should authorize, we note that there's been much discussion this week relating to the availability of 100.3. From our perspective, it is the Commission's right and responsibility, not that of the licensees, to determine the best use of this frequency.

6481   Thank you for your time. This concludes our remarks. We'd be very happy to answer any additional questions that you might have.

6482   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6483   We'll start with Commissioner Patrone, and I think Commissioner Menzies will have one there after.

6484   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6485   I just have a question about your news setup. From what I recall from our presentation, you said it was basically going to consist of your hosts engaging in a form of banter, talking about the events of the day?

6486   Did I have that correct?

6487   MR. GORDON: Yeah. Within reason, you have that correct, yes.

6488   The hosts and the announcers that are on the air will be talking about the events, news, things that are important to the demographic and relating that both on the air and through social media.

6489   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Will there be anybody gathering the news, working the phones, that kind of thing?

6490   MR. GORDON: Each and every person is responsible for doing that. I mean, in this demographic, in this type of radio station, the people that we hire for this station, everybody is basically a social media director.

6491   And those people are responsible for gathering in the content for the radio station and what they bring to the air.

6492   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Perhaps I misunderstood earlier on. I thought that somehow that the same people who were going to be presenting the news are also going to be required to gather the news.

6493   MR. GORDON: That's correct, yes.

6494   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: That's a very difficult thing to do because if you're on air being also the same person who works the phones, goes out for clips, writes the copy, that kind of thing -- I'm just trying to get my head around how all that's going to come together.

6495   And at this point, I don't quite see. That's why I was hoping for some clarification.

6496   MR. COREY: Yeah, I can say that it's currently being done on our Toronto station Flow by the on-air announcers and there are no issues whatsoever. There's plenty of time for them to be able to talk on the radio, but also research what they're going to talk about and gather the different types of news that we're going to be talking about and Tweeting out on this radio station.

6497   So we're doing it in Toronto and it's working very well.

6498   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: And that's -- that works fine for breaking stories --

6499   MR. COREY: Absolutely.

6500   COMMISSIONER PATRONE:  -- when you're on the air and, of course, the information is coming in, so --

6501   MR. COREY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

6502   MR. GORDON: I mean, our control rooms are fully wired, multiple televisions, multiple internet sites, you know, banks of phone lines. We're completely, you know, accessing, you know, all forms of news and information, whether it's through broadcast news or, you know, through television news or other forms of print media.

6503   You know, control rooms of today are fully integrated, multi-media experiences.

6504   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Right. Well, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

6505   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Simpson?

6506   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you very much.

6507   Your very articulate supporters earlier in Phase III caused me to have a few questions that I'd like to try and pry the lid open on a bit without getting into exhaustive detail.

6508   But the market right now, there's 17 some-odd stations and the market that -- of nine or 10 stations that is currently after the 18 to, let's say, 35 market or 35 to 49 market playing adult contemporary, AC and various forms of contemporary music is pretty thinly sliced right now out of the universal audience. But you're going -- and you're probably, in my impression, the most niche of all the applications that want to still get into that space.

6509   And what intrigues me with what little I know of the market, they're probably one of the most prone users to social media and alternate media delivery systems like Youtube and videos and so on.

6510   And I'm wondering if you could tell me that you're willing to -- the reason why you're willing to take this sort of narrow approach is not only smart marketing because you're targeting your audience extremely, but it has a lot to do with the fact that you've got a lot of resources at your disposal given, you know, the parentage of the station, you know, because Bell can bring a lot of resources to the market that perhaps others can't.

6511   Is that why you're confident you can be as niche as you are?

6512   MR. GORDON: No, I think it, you know, it really doesn't really have anything to do with the parent company; it has everything to do with relating on a local level to who your audience is.

6513   You know, the stations that are in the market currently I would say really there's maybe two or three that are targeting exclusively on the sort of the 18 to 34 end of things, so we do really believe that there is a hole there.

6514   The vast majority of the stations that are in the market are going after a 25 to 54 audience.

6515   You know, it really comes down to being, you know, very, very tech savvy and very, very connected to the audience, you know, through technology and through their Smartphones.

6516   You know, the day of a transmitter for a radio station, you know, we can -- it's on the horizon. A radio station won't need a transmitter in 10 or 15 years because, you know, once the devices go completely wireless and you can get, you know, full spectrum on your device, you know, we're not going to be broadcasting that way.

6517   So we look at it from a local perspective. We don't -- the things that we're talking about bringing to this market, we're working on with our other radio stations and developing in other markets right now.

6518   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you.

6519   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies.

6520   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Because we've been making these comparisons, the Flow in Toronto was around since, what, 2001, roughly?

6521   MR. COREY: Correct.

6522   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And it started off playing a lot of hip-hop, right, as I recall, and then it got about a 2.3 share and then it moved -- it -- there was some sort of -- controversy is too big a word, but some interactivity with its audience regarding some changes in format that it moved away. It still had hip-hop, but it wasn't only hip-hop, and different types of music and its market share increased slightly.

6523   And I don't have all the material here, but can you tell me what its market share is now in Toronto?

6524   MR. GORDON: Sure. I mean, 18 to 34, or...?

6525   MR. COREY: Yeah, in the target demo 18 to 34 adults -- I'm trying to think back to the last book. We were ranked sixth. I think that put us at about a 6 share.

6526   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. What sort of changes did you make since you took it over?

6527   MR. GORDON: Yeah. I mean, we basically took this format and refined it and implemented it.

6528   I believe Flow was originally licensed as an urban station, and urban music is quite a bit different. It has some elements of hip-hop in it, but it was much -- a different kind of format when it licensed.

6529   It also had a lot of specialty programming on the time. It had Calypso music.

6530   So what we did was we basically took the hip-hop and R&B montage of music and focused the station into that and really focused it on an 18 to 29 year old demo, and that's how we've managed to increase our share in the market.

6531   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you.

6532   THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that's it. Thank you so much.

6533   MS. LETOURNEAU: Mr. Chair, just one small thing for the record.

6534   I would like to thank Bell Media to have filed responses to undertaking like we had. Thank you.

6535   MR. GOLDSTEIN: Sorry; are you asking us to file them, or...?

6536   MS. LETOURNEAU: Sorry, that's my French, I think, Francophone speaking English. Sorry about that.

6537   I received them. Thank you.

6538   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, guys and girls.

6539   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Harvard Broadcasting Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

6540   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

6541   Thank you.

REPLY

6542   MR. C. COWIE: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, my name is Cam Cowie, General Manager of the Harvard Radio Stations.

6543   Appearing with me in this important reply phase of the hearing, seated to my left -- or, sorry, my right, Bruce Cowie, Vice-President, Harvard Broadcasting. Next to Bruce, Christian Hall, Harvard's National Program Manager. Immediately to my left, Gary Brasil, Harvard's National Sales Manager, and next to Gary is Robert Malcolmson, regulatory counsel from Goodmans LLP.

6544   We would like to take this opportunity to reply to some of the recurring themes that were raised by the intervenors in Phase II.

6545   Yesterday, it was suggested by Mosaic that Calgary is not a diverse market in terms of ownership and editorial voice, and therefore, allowing an existing standalone operator such as Harvard to double up does not represent the best use of frequency.

6546   This characterization of the Calgary radio market distorts reality and does a disservice to the level of diversity of voice the Commission created in Calgary in the 2006 licensing round.

6547   In fact, Calgary is the most diverse market among major markets in Western Canada. Today in Calgary there are 15 stations owned by seven different ownership groups, with four multi-station operations and three standalones. Compare this to Vancouver with five ownership groups, Edmonton with six and Winnipeg with five, and it should be noted that there are no standalones left in any of those markets.

6548   While Calgary enjoys more diversity of ownership than any other major Western market, it is nevertheless imbalanced. It is no coincidence that Calgary's three standalone FM stations -- Harvard's Modern Rock, X92.9; Rawlco's Classic Hits, Up 97.7; and Bell's Hot AC, Kool FM -- rank at the very bottom of the FM market in terms of 12 plus share.

6549   In order to preserve and enhance the diversity the Commission created in 2006, the time has come to balance the market by allowing us to add a second station so we can better compete on a more equal footing.

6550   MR. BRUCE COWIE: Interveners have said that allowing us to double up will not add diversity or achieve the objectives of the Broadcasting Act. We see a much different picture.

6551   A second station in Calgary will give Harvard the critical mass necessary to offer an independent Western-based editorial voice as an alternative to the national operators that currently dominate the Calgary radio market. In other words, approval of our application will preserve and enhance the existing level of diversity present in Calgary today and in doing so accomplish the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

6552   We listened carefully to the interventions that were presented yesterday. While they were passionate advocates of their own for their own purposes, they tended to obscure some of the key facts upon which your decision should be based.

6553   The reality is that of Calgary's 1.2 million people, over 1 million or 85 percent identify English as their home language. The South Asian community, on the other hand, comprises just over 5 percent of the population.

6554   Adults 25-44 represent the single largest population group in the city at 33 percent or over 300,000 people. The size of this demographic and the level of dissatisfaction with existing radio choices cannot be ignored and should be essential considerations in your licensing decision.

6555   Of all the applicants before you, our research, and ours alone, cast the widest net over Calgary's 18-54 radio listeners and asked them to tell us what was missing. The answer was traditional AC, a high-demand format that is tried, tested and true but is no longer available in the Calgary market.

6556   While our format choice may not be seen by interveners as new or cutting edge, it is nevertheless what the largest segment of Calgary wants to hear, which, after all, is what this process is about: serving the listeners of Calgary with programming that they want.

6557   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, contrary to what one of the interveners said yesterday, Harvard has always been clear about its growth plan. When we appeared before you here in Calgary in 2006, we said we would be back seeking to double up once we had established ourselves in this cornerstone market.

6558   We have executed on the plan we put before you and now seek to take the next step, a step that will balance the market and enable us to continue to contribute to editorial diversity, regional reflection and Canadian content development, all of which are key objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

6559   A key objective, indeed the first objective identified in the Commission's 2006 Commercial Radio Policy is to create "a strong, well-financed commercial radio sector" that makes effective contributions to Canadian artists and provides listeners with greater musical diversity. Our proposal for Calgary will achieve these important goals for years to come, with minimal impact on existing services.

6560   Given the scarcity of spectrum, it is essential that this licensing decision balances the market and at the same time responds to the demand for a new station demonstrated by Calgary's South Asian community throughout this hearing.

6561   Our view is that this could best be achieved by allowing the market's two regional operators, Harvard and Rawlco, to double up on 95.3 and 100.3, respectively, while licensing an ethnic applicant on 106.7 and/or on AM if the Commission determines that the South Asian community, which represents just over 5 percent of the population, can support one or two new stations.

6562   We would like to thank you and your staff for a very well-run hearing and we wish you very well in your deliberations. Thank you.

6563   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We're going to need it.

6564   Questions?

6565   Commissioner Menzies.

6566   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I am having just a little difficulty. I understand how it's more efficient to run a business with two licences rather than one, but just on another note, it seems to me, and we could probably all agree, that the consumer is best served by competition, and if there's, say, I don't know, 20 radio licences in a city that the ultimate goal of competition would be to have 20 different operators. That would be the most competitive.

6567   And then I guess you're looking for balance in competition with an argument that -- which you're not the only one making -- that the best thing is for everybody to have two, right? So why not three? Why not four? Because it makes it more efficient.

6568   I'm just trying to get at this because we encounter it more and more. There's a tendency in regulation once you put a cap on it, it also becomes a minimum expectation in some sense, that people think, okay, if they're going to cap us at two, that means we can expect to get two, and then everybody starts making the same argument.

6569   I'm just trying to figure out whether you're actually saying it is not possible to be a successful operator in the market this size with one stick or whether it's just harder.

6570   MR. CAM COWIE: Yes. I think it's harder.

6571   Let's assume for a moment that two brand-new licences come into the marketplace, creating five standalones. Now, you have really five standalones that will be competing with each other because it's very difficult for any one standalone to compete against the larger multi-station or vertically integrated.

6572   We don't have the wherewithal for application or access to talent. If somebody wants a talent in the Calgary market from a standalone and they're from a major or Edmonton, they basically just come in and buy that talent.

6573   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So, is this a little bit of a vertical integration issue then, too, if you're up against a Rogers or a CTV and that sort of stuff in terms of promotional opportunities?

6574   MR. CAM COWIE: Yes, absolutely. I mean we heard throughout the hearing that, you know, whether it's billboard, bus bench, you know, specialty channel, television channel and so on, you know, when we promote our Edmonton station or our Calgary station on television, we have to buy it from one of the competitors. So they have --

6575   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So you have to buy a Pattison billboard?

6576   MR. CAM COWIE: I have to buy a Pattison billboard, I have to buy CTV TV, I have to buy City TV, I have to buy Global TV and Shaw.

6577   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And I'm sure they give you a good rate.

6578   MR. CAM COWIE: Excellent rates. I'm pretty sure that I'm right there on the bottom of their rate card.

6579   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I understand. Thank you.

6580   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much. We appreciate your contribution.

6581   MR. CAM COWIE: Thank you.

6582   MR. BRUCE COWIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6583   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for coming down.

6584   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership to come forward.

6585   THE CHAIRPERSON: We will be going to break after this.

--- Pause

6586   THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourselves for the record, after which you have 10 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

REPLY

6587   MR. ARNISH: I will.

6588   Rick Arnish, President, Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.

6589   To my left, Tamara Stanners, Program Director, The PEAK in Vancouver; to my far right, Rod Schween, our General Manager of our Lethbridge radio stations; and to Rod's left, Gerry Siemens, Vice-President and General Manager of The PEAK in Vancouver; and to my right, our legal counsel, Chris Weafer.

6590   Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. We appreciate the opportunity to comment on the interventions related to our application.

6591   First, we appreciate the dozens of letters of support, which clearly shows demand for our unique format, as well as the significant support of key industry associations, Music B.C. and the Alberta Music Industry Association.

6592   We are grateful that they took the time to appear before you today and hope that you will take their strong support for the Pattison application into account in your decision.

6593   We would also highlight the letters received from the many artists and bands who see the significant opportunity that has been created by The PEAK in Vancouver and which we wish to deliver to Calgary. The support for our format and our significant CCD commitments are clearly evident in our application materials and in the public supporting interventions.

6594   Turning to the intervention filed against non-ethnic applications by Rogers Broadcasting, we believe that we addressed the opportunity in the market for our format in our initial appearance.

6595   It has also become quite clear by the evidence filed by all applicants that the market is healthy and can support the addition of multiple stations. We believe the market can support our application at 95.3 as well as the ethnic applicant for 106.7 and the AM ethnic applicant and that the Rogers intervention should be given no weight by the Commission.

6596   The Rogers intervention indicates only an ethnic applicant should be licensed. That position discounts the significant benefits our application will bring to Calgary, including $12.25 million of direct and indirect CCD commitments.

6597   The fact that all incumbent independent FM stations applied for additional licences is further evidence that the market can support new entrants. Bell and Rawlco implied that the market can support two new services. The evidence before you is the market is healthy and growing.

6598   Turning to the appearing interventions by Calgary Mosaic and Red FM yesterday afternoon, both interveners indicated that a new non-ethnic licence would not add diversity to the market. As set out in our application, we believe strongly that the Pattison Broadcast Group, as a new entrant with a significant commitment to spoken-word programming, will undoubtedly add diversity and a strong, new, long-term editorial voice to Calgary.

6599   The interventions filed by Mosaic and Red FM also indicated that conventional applicants have flexibility to change format should the format they propose not work. They argue this would not add diversity to the market.

6600   We respectfully disagree. Our application has committed to a condition of licence that 15 percent of all of our music will be by emerging Canadian artists. That pledge combined with our CCD commitments -- which far exceed any other applicant in this hearing -- and in particular our deep commitment to the PEAK Performance Project position us as completely devoted to the Triple A format. We have no other choice.

6601   Mr. Chairman, in your opening comments you indicated that success at this hearing would be determined by several criteria: the quality of the applications, the state of competition, the diversity of editorial voices, and it will also examine the capacity of the market to support new radio stations and the financial resources of each applicant.

6602   In our respectful view, our application has responded to each of those criteria in a manner which clearly demonstrates that the Pattison application represents the best use of the frequency 95.3 FM.

6603   The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group believes our application, if approved, would be the best utilization of the available frequency in Calgary and submits that approval is in the public interest and in furtherance of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

6604   Approval will:

6605   1. Enable a longstanding, well-respected Western-based broadcast company to enter the playing field in the very competitive Calgary market with a standalone FM licence.

6606   2. Result in $8,750,000 in direct benefits targeted primarily to emerging Canadian artists. A further $3.5 million in indirect benefits will be provided over the licence term.

6607   3. Add a unique and diverse Triple A FM format to the market, which will air as a condition of licence 40 percent Canadian content and 15 percent emerging Canadian artists, a format which will embrace new and emerging artists unlike any proposed or existing format in the Calgary market.

6608   4. Create 25 full-time and three part-time broadcasting jobs in Calgary.

6609   5. Provide 21 hours and 18 minutes weekly of new, innovative spoken-word programming from a Western-Canadian-owned and -operated broadcast company. A new Calgary-based editorial voice will be created.

6610   Mr. Chair, Members of the panel and Commission staff, we appreciate the opportunity to make these comments, and, Mr. Chair, we thank you for running a very fair and efficient hearing and we wish you well with your deliberations. Thank you very much.

6611   THE CHAIRPERSON: More flowers. We'll take them. And we really appreciate your warm thoughts on our deliberations. We're going to need all the help we can get. Again, thank you for your presentation.

6612   Just one point. Maybe my colleagues may have a question. I recall it came up during the first part of the hearing. Harvard put out a study and their original plan was to go Triple A in their format, and following the results of that study they changed the direction, leur fusil d'épaule, as we say in French.

6613   Given that study, what makes you believe the Triple A format is viable in this market?

6614   MR. ARNISH: Well, I will start and then ask Mr. Siemens to jump in here.

6615   We believe the format that we're proposing here in Calgary will work because of our history of the format that we're doing in Vancouver.

6616   Given that the format in Vancouver may be a little more hard-edged than what we're proposing here in Calgary, the market research by Vision Critical clearly showed that there was a big demand for this type of newer music, new emerging music in the Calgary market.

6617   And we feel that with the history that we have with the PEAK in Vancouver -- and it's deep-rooted, and you heard this morning with our interveners how well it's going -- we can certainly bring this format to Calgary as a standalone and do a very good job of it, repatriate a lot of new young listeners to the radio station and be a big success.

6618   Gerry, you want to build on that?

6619   MR. SIEMENS: Just to finish the thought, really.

6620   We talked the other day about the PEAK in Vancouver and the PEAK Performance project kind of being intertwined until they are inseparable, and we believe so strongly in the PEAK Performance Project and the effect it's having on the music industry in B.C. that we are chomping at the bit to extend it into Alberta.

6621   Our research clearly shows that there's a hole for a Triple A. We believe in the format, we love the format, we understand the format, and with the commitment that we also have made to emerging artists it will be distinct in the market and we look forward to the opportunity.

6622   THE CHAIRPERSON: You know, when you look at that Harvard study and you look at your commitment to emerging artists and you look at your CCD contributions, which are considerable -- $12.5 million is music to emerging artists', and artists' generally, ears -- I think the question was asked, I mean you have the capacity, the financial capacity to survive and is the willingness there to do that as a standalone, given everything we've heard over the past few days and the need people seem to feel to double up?

6623   MR. ARNISH: We understand why competitors that are standalone in the marketplace now want to double up, but when you talk about diversity of ownership, diversity of voices, diversity of formats, you know, we went into Vancouver -- in answering your question, you know, we were fortunate that you allowed to do this format in Vancouver.

6624   We did go into it with a lot of trepidation because it was a brand-new playing field for us and it's been such a wonderful success in that market in the Lower Mainland that we are -- I'm sure you've heard the passion from us, that we are deeply committed to making this work in Calgary. We're in it for the long haul. We've given you the commitments that we think and feel demonstrate that we are committed. And we know how to do it and the people in Calgary want it.

6625   THE CHAIRPERSON: Questions? No. Okay.

6626   Thanks again.

6627   MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much.

6628   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much.

6629   Do you have a question?

6630   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: No.

6631   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. False alarm.

6632   So, as announced, we're going to go on break. Ten minutes. Thanks so much.

--- Upon recessing at 1431

--- Upon resuming at 1450

6633   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen.

6634   Madam Ventura.

6635   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

6636   We will now proceed with Punjabi World Network Ltd.

6637   Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY

6638   MR. CHERA: Thank you.

6639   Once again, my name is Joti Chera. On my right we have Mr. Amandeep Dhanda, and on my left, Mr. Amandeep Doad.

6640   Before I start, I would like to state that we have filed the undertaking documents that were requested by the Commission in Phase 1.

6641   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and CRTC staff, good afternoon once again. We appreciate you allowing us to return once again and reply to what some of our friends have had to say.

6642   MR. DHANDA: We want to reply to four issues raised yesterday: the coverage of our AM signal; our fulfilment of the broad service objectives, in terms of languages and cultural groups to be served; the kind of research we relied on in our application; and our inventory sell-out or fill rates.

6643   However, we also want to provide a written correction. Yesterday the folks at Multicultural Broadcasting attached a chart to compare aspects that they selected from four ethnic applications, including theirs. A lot of the stuff is hard to keep track of. We thought we saw a couple of mistakes, so we have corrected the chart. We have attached a clean and black-lined version to your copy of our presentation.

6644   MR. CHERA: First, our AM signal.

6645   Alberta Mosaic talked with you yesterday about the importance of covering the whole city. We have talked with you about ensuring that every frequency achieves its highest and best use.

6646   We don't say that those things are in conflict. Upgrading our signal from the SCMO to AM will substantially improve service to 13 communities, in 8 languages, without hurting anybody else. It is that simple.

6647   If the highest and best use of the FM frequency that covers the whole city is another kind of ethnic station whose business model is built on national advertisers and a higher price point, then great. You have a tough decision to make.

6648   However, Alberta Mosaic described our application as low-power AM, and gave the impression that we would not reach very many people. So we want to make sure that they, and you, understand our AM frequency proposal, which we think is pretty innovative.

6649   MR. DHANDA: At the frequency and using the antenna we have proposed, our night-time usable field strength is 3.7 millivolts. We think that is remarkable.

6650   By way of background, the usable field strength at any location is the minimum value of field strength needed to overcome anticipated levels of atmospheric and manmade interference. Usually, the minimum value required to overcome interference is much higher, so their night-time coverage degrades fast.

6651   Our frequency, antenna, and field strength need only 3.7 millivolts to overcome the most serious interference.

6652   As a result, we will cover a great deal of Calgary; maybe not some of the ranches in the surrounding countryside, but we are going to reach our target audience, and we will for some time to come.

6653   These numbers are already on file with the Commission, but they are worth considering.

6654   During the day we will reach 1,048,000 in the 5 millivolt contour.

6655   During the night we will reach 638,000 people in the 5 millivolt contour.

6656   The geography of our antenna is not by accident. We will reach virtually all of our present SCMO listenership, all of our present advertisers who give us that high fill rate. It is not a high-power frequency, but it is a non-directional AM antenna at a frequency and power level that are going to reach our audience well around the city. It would substantially improve the service to 13 groups, speaking 8 languages, without encroaching on the market of anyone else that you regulate. We think that is worth doing.

6657   MR. CHERA: That brings us to groups and languages. We heard another applicant say that our application does not serve enough languages or cultural groups. They said that we are a narrowly focused South Asian service.

6658   Well, the CRTC's ethnic broadcasting policy is pretty clear: it "will maintain its objective that service should be provided to smaller as well as larger ethnic groups."

6659   The Commission considers, however, that a balance may be struck between the two priorities: serving as many groups as practical, and providing high-quality programming to those groups that are served.

6660   So two things: one, we looked hard at StatsCan numbers and which communities now have much ethnic media, like weekly newspapers.

6661   We talked to our contacts around the city, people who we have worked with, studied with, and hang out with. We landed on a solution that will serve as many groups as we think it is practical for us to serve without compromising the quality of the programming, and without having any negative effect on any existing ethnic station.

6662   Nor would licensing us have any negative effect on any proposed ethnic station, as it turns out. Even those who would rely especially on South Asian revenues are simply going for a different kind of revenue base and a different kind of advertiser.

6663   Now, we do not have extremely aggressive revenue targets. We cannot cross-subsidize to the extent we could if we thought we could hit millions of dollars annually. But we do have a prudent model, consistent with CRTC policy.

6664   Two, we think it is wrong to say that 13 groups and 8 languages is narrow or is not enough. We have designed a station that tries to bring together some pretty diverse communities. We have done that by avoiding things like religion, which divides us, and focusing on what we have in common.

6665   We have targeted and hired hosts who have practical experience in multiple languages to help us do that.

6666   So, yes, our Filipino programming and our Arabic programming are targeting non-South Asians, but we want to see the diversity in South Asian communities, too. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Ismaili, Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Bangladesh, Fiji -- these are all proud groups with their own traditions. Each of those groups has a lot of internal disagreements, and we get into that, too. The point is that our team, and our programming grid, speaks to all of them.

6667   MR. DHANDA: Third, you were told yesterday that we simply hadn't done any research. We beg to differ.

6668   As we have explained, we took a hard look at what survey research can do, and where we were already at with our on-the-ground experience. We have been contacting, interviewing, and profiling listeners and advertisers in this city for years. We looked at what we would get out of commissioning a study versus leveraging our presence and all of the information generated by running an existing service in the market.

6669   We decided to build on that by simply going out and talking to people, a lot. As you know, we talked to 4,500 Calgarians, who said that they want to see us on the AM band in this city; not 300, not 500, 4,500.

6670   And, believe me, we have talked to a lot of advertisers about this. In fact, 100 advertisers are on record as saying that they would keep advertising with us on the AM band. Again, a pretty good sample size. We talked with them, and we listened to them. We think that this is what serving these communities is all about.

6671   MR. CHERA: That brings us to our fill rates. We have projected fill rates of 65 percent. One of the applicants said that looks pretty high. Of course, that applicant wants to charge double or triple what we do.

6672   The fact is that our projected rates, our detailed revenue projections and expenses, and the two pages of financial assumptions set out in our application aren't just based on survey research, or spending a few months visiting. They are based on what we actually charge, what we actually fill, and what advertisers have told us they will do on SCMO and after what we hope will be a transition to AM.

6673   MR. DOAD: Before we finish, we want to once again emphasize what we think has been the remarkable quality of our friends' presentations.

6674   This has been a fantastic coming out for ethnic minority media in this city. On Monday we put up a video for you. On Tuesday we uploaded it to YouTube and our header page. Now more than 500 people have viewed it, so there is a real buzz in the air.

6675   Many of us from the applicants know one another quite well, and we have often worked together.

6676   We want to thank you for coming to Calgary and hearing us.

6677   We would be pleased to answer any questions that you might have.

6678   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We appreciate all of your documents and all of the hard work that has gone into it, and your work within your community and your advertisers.

6679   All that being said, other applicants that have an AM as an alternate frequency deposited figures that were much higher, in terms of their capital expenditures, to get up and running infrastructure.

6680   You are at about one-tenth that cost. How do you explain that?

6681   MR. DHANDA: Yes, Commissioner. We were looking to service this community even before the commencement of the call by the Commission, so we worked with a frequency search company and we looked at all of the options, and cost was one of the points that we were considering.

6682   Then, this company had worked with ethnic media in Toronto and Montreal, and they have done these kinds of AM setups.

6683   Basically it is a low-power AM, and we don't have to put the towers on the ground. It's a pre-made tower structure, and it is less than 40 feet high, so you don't have to do public consultation. That is why the cost is --

6684   THE CHAIRPERSON: And the land requirements?

6685   MR. DHANDA: Yes, there is a land requirement, and we have leasing agreements with the landowners.

6686   THE CHAIRPERSON: And you have a leasing arrangement somewhere?

6687   MR. DHANDA: Yes.

6688   THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you provide us with an example of where this has been done elsewhere at the minimal costs you have indicated here?

6689   MR. DHANDA: Yes, CINA Radio in Brampton, Ontario.

6690   THE CHAIRPERSON: Brampton?

6691   MR. DHANDA: Yes.

6692   THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the frequency?

6693   I think it's CINA?

6694   MR. DOAD: Yes, the call sign is CINA.

6695   THE CHAIRPERSON: CINA.

6696   Are there any other examples?

6697   MR. DOAD: Yes. I think there was, just recently, a French station application.

6698   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Maybe you could get us more information, and we will look at a delay to find out what other people have come in with and started transmitting for $150,000, basically.

6699   MR. CHERA: Sure. If I could add, like Amandeep has said, we got our foot in the door through SCMO, and from there we got to know our listeners and their demands, and we built a pretty strong relationship with our advertisers.

6700   And we wanted to present a win-win situation, so we started researching, and when we thought about AM, a traditional AM, it was going to be very expensive to do that. So we kind of left that road aside.

6701   Then we looked at AM. Then we looked at the numbers of the communities and the ethnic groups that we were trying to propose. So we kind of left that road aside, as well.

6702   We wanted to present a sample that would benefit everybody involved, and this was the road. It will allow us to survive, because our costs are very low to start with.

6703   We have a clientele that we have been already working with. We have talked to the listeners and they are ready to receive a higher signal, a better, clearer signal.

6704   So the demand was there. I think, with this idea, we will be able to serve everybody.

6705   THE CHAIRPERSON: And are they willing to pay more for the better signal?

6706   MR. DHANDA: No, because it is going to be an AM receiver, so it is free of cost.

6707   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean your advertisers.

6708   MR. CHERA: Oh, yes. Yes, they would be graduating with us; not right off the bat, but as we progress over the seven years, they will move with us.

6709   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I appreciate your efforts. I appreciate your desire to find solutions. And nobody likes win-win situations more than we do.

6710   Do you want to finish up before Mr. Patrone has a question?

6711   MR. DOAD: May I add something to the previous answer?

6712   THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

6713   MR. DOAD: Also, we already have our studio set up, so we don't need to spend any money on our studio, it is just the money for the transmitter plant that we need.

6714   Also, the recent application was approved by the CRTC on a similar AM, which was on one of the two-storey buildings --

6715   I'm sorry, I can't remember where it was, but it was on a two-storey building, compared to on the land.

6716   CINA is also -- it's in a field, but it's in a populated area, as well.

6717   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will give you some more homework, then -- another undertaking.

Undertaking

6718   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Patrone...

6719   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6720   Can you remind me again what you are planning as far as religious content is concerned?

6721   MR. CHERA: Will we provide religious programming? Is that what you are asking?

6722   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yes.

6723   MR. CHERA: No, we are not going to be providing any religious programming.

6724   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: None?

6725   MR. CHERA: No programming --

6726   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: I ask, because on page 5, about two-thirds of the way down the page -- and I will quote you -- you say, "...but we want to see the diversity in the South Asian communities, too," and then you identify Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, and so on.

6727   You identify the communities, in part, or countries, like Fiji and Bangladesh, but you also identify them according to their religious background.

6728   MR. CHERA: Yes. That was just to briefly explain where these people are coming from, but they also, you will agree, share a common culture.

6729   We are going to be programming to them. We are going to be putting shows together that target these groups, but the focus of those programs will be culture and language. The topics wouldn't be religious.

6730   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: But if you target them according to the labels that you have identified for us, that suggests to me that there is going to be religious content, which suggests to me further that there has to be a sense of balancing that amongst all of the groups, and bringing a level of fairness to all of that.

6731   MR. CHERA: I think, maybe, we could have rephrased, or described them in a different manner.

6732   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: If you had said India, for instance, or Pakistan --

6733   MR. CHERA: Yes.

6734   COMMISSIONER PATRONE:  -- then that would have suggested the country of origin, rather than the religious --

6735   MR. CHERA: True.

6736   MR. DOAD: I would like to add something to that. It's the cultural proximity between India -- because if we say just India, then we can't say a Gujarati, Punjabi or Hindi community.

6737   It's all blended into one language.

6738   And these are different groups between India. There are a lot of groups which reside in India --

6739   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: I understand.

6740   MR. DOAD:  -- but they share cultural proximities.

6741   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: The lines get a little fuzzy between religious areas and countries.

6742   MR. DOAD: As we mentioned on the first day --

6743   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: An area like the Punjabi, for instance --

6744   MR. DOAD: Yes, it definitely does --

6745   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: It is geographically there, but it is also --

6746   MR. CHERA: May I add to that?

6747   We are willing to take a condition that we won't present any religious programming.

6748   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Okay. Thank you.

6749   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Patrone.

6750   Commissioner Menzies...

6751   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Just remind me, please, how big would you anticipate your listening audience being on that AM signal?

6752   How many listeners would you be getting in your prime time listening hours compared to what you are getting now?

6753   MR. DHANDA: There is no way of getting the numbers, but it is going to be a lot more than the SCMO, because it's an open frequency, so people have the convenience of dialling in.

6754   So, basically, the numbers will be a lot more, but again it is difficult to get approximately -- like, the fixed numbers, but it is going to be a lot more.

6755   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I didn't quite catch that.

6756   If you are telling your advertisers -- if you are anticipating that much more advertising revenue from your advertisers, you must be giving them some idea of how much more of the market you are going to reach.

6757   MR. DHANDA: Basically, it is going to be the size of the South Asian demographics for Calgary, like the language groups we are targeting.

6758   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Thanks.

6759   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen.

6760   Just in terms of the undertakings, CINA, and any other examples you have of people that have set up this kind of broadcasting infrastructure at the cost levels that you have indicated. That is the first thing.

Undertaking

6761   THE CHAIRPERSON: Secondly, your lease agreement, or your offer to lease agreement, was that deposited?

6762   MR. DOAD: Yes, it was.

6763   THE CHAIRPERSON: So we have that on record? We have that on file?

6764   Great.

6765   If it was, fine.

6766   MR. DOAD: Yes, it was filed.

6767   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen.

6768   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, may I just take a moment to verify something, please?

6769   THE CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

--- Pause

6770   THE SECRETARY: I will give the Applicant until Thursday, February 16th.

6771   Is that okay?

6772   And we will check for the lease agreement and everything, because we are not sure if we have it on file right now.

6773   THE CHAIRPERSON: If you have it, file it. It will be easier.

6774   So you get a week.

6775   MR. CHERA: Sure.

6776   THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that clear?

6777   MR. CHERA: Yes, sir, we are clear.

6778   THE CHAIRPERSON: And you are sure about the offer to lease agreement, that it was deposited as part of your submission?

6779   MR. DOAD: Yes, it was deposited with Industry Canada when we resubmitted our papers, and also with the CRTC, as well.

6780   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6781   MR. DOAD: Yes, it should be on the file.

6782   We could re-deposit it, if need be.

6783   THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be great.

6784   MR. DOAD: While I have the chance, I just want to add something. Commissioner Menzies asked about listenership. We are trying our best to go for the South Asian market.

6785   I was hearing that (inaudible) wall was -- the one comment was coming up again and again, and I think that right now we are breaking it with a chisel and a hammer, right now. This will give us a jackhammer to break the wall.

6786   Thank you.

6787   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good luck, guys. Talk to you soon. Thank you.

6788   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Multicultural Broadcasting Corporation Inc. to come forward.

REPLY

6789   MR. LEWIS: For the record, my name is Mark Lewis. I am joined by Kulwinder Sanghera, President of Multicultural Broadcasting, and Bijoy Samuel.

6790   MR. SAMUEL: At the very outset, we wish to thank more than 1,600 members of Calgary's ethnic communities and local businesses who have sent letters of support to the Commission. That includes 548 letters from individuals who are not from the South Asian community.

6791   We also wish to acknowledge all of the community associations who came forward to support not only our application, but the other ethnic applicants, as well. Those letters demonstrate broad-based support across the city for a new ethnic radio service, and demonstrate that the expectations and needs of residents of this growing city are not being met.

6792   We also wish to thank the Commissioners and the staff, who prior to this week and during this hearing undertook such a thorough examination of our application and those of our competitors.

6793   MR. LEWIS: Commissioners, if I could just go back to something we left on the table on Monday that I'd like to address before we move on to respond to a couple of interventions.

6794   On Monday, we were asked whether we had proposed a programming advisory board, and Mr. Sanghera answered that over the past six years in Vancouver RED FM had developed a very effective means of soliciting views and feedback from listeners of the station.

6795   That's been accomplished two ways. One, by engaging senior management, including himself, directly with members of the community who have complaints regarding any aspect of programming or any comments regarding programming.

6796   Secondly, the station has implemented twice-yearly listener open house meetings that allow for members of the various communities served by the station to meet directly with management and program hosts, and we believe that this has been a very successful model and allowed the station's management to be in touch with the pulse of its listening audience.

6797   Third, RED FM is a member of, as we said on Monday, of the CBSC since sign-on, and that has led to very productive adjudication of a very small number of complaints over the first term of the station's licence.

6798   We appreciate, though, the 1999 review of the ethnic policy advocated establishment of advisory councils incorporating representatives of the ethnic communities in their service areas. And in our view, our interactive approach works and, secondly, it appears to go far beyond what the incumbent ethnic broadcaster, Fairchild, carries out in Calgary relative to the communities it serves.

6799   In fact, I went back to their licence renewal application from 2010 and the resulting decision, and I couldn't find any advisory committee structure in Calgary. But that's Fairchild, and we're talking about RED FM today.

6800   So if, at the end of the day, the Commission is of the view that a formally constituted advisory council is a more effective means of obtaining the pulse of the community and ensuring we provide the level of service that we've committed to provide, we would be pleased to implement an advisory council structured to work, and we would see them working as well in the open house twice a year over and above direct consultation.

6801   So I just wanted to make that very clear.

6802   THE CHAIRPERSON: Noted and appreciated. Thank you.

6803   MR. LEWIS: Now, with respect to interventions opposing our application, there are, to our knowledge, two intervenors who oppose licensing our service.

6804   We have responded prior to the hearing to technical comments filed by other broadcasters. In those cases, we provided the approvals received from industry Canada as well as our consulting engineer.

6805   With respect to Fairchild, we filed a detailed reply to their intervention back on December 12, which seems like a lifetime ago.

6806   In the time remaining, we're not going to go over that territory again, but there is a pattern with Fairchild in Calgary and other cities predicting financial ruin each time a qualified applicant comes before you to provide a highly localized ethnic broadcasting service.

6807   Earlier this week, and I'm going to go back to the transcript again, if you'll pardon me, but Commissioner Cugini, in questioning an application noted that Fairchild has access to the same research data that others have presented in this hearing in terms of the growth of the south Asian community and in this market.

6808   And she said, going to the transcript:

"There's nothing stopping Fairchild from doubling or even tripling its hours of programming targeting the south Asian community going forward. If they do that, how will you respond; how will you compete?"

6809   So we come to this hearing with a great deal of knowledge about Fairchild, so here are the facts.

6810   Fairchild had access to our research in Vancouver seven years ago. In the six years that we've operated in that market, they've continued to focus on the Chinese community, which, quite simply, is their cash cow. And they've continued their brokerage model of providing, in our view, sub-standard service to other ethnic communities.

6811   Simply stated, we don't consider Fairchild to be a competitor in Vancouver or likely in the future in Calgary. That's their business model; we have a different business model that we've brought before you.

6812   Also, for several years we've closely monitored and analyzed Fairchild's programming in Calgary, and I imagine others at this hearing have as well.

6813   What would it take for Fairchild to compete with RED FM is for them to employ qualified broadcasters, to hire news staff, to hire commentators, to hire production staff and for Fairchild to provide daily news and public affairs spoken word programming that is reflective of the south Asian and other communities that we propose to serve in Calgary.

6814   Aside from providing well-produced news and information programming for the south Asian, Vietnamese, Filipino and Arabic communities on RED FM, we're going to add 11 languages representing a population base and a mother tongue of more than 52,000 people that are simply not served by Fairchild.

6815   Now we come to Alberta Mosaic's intervention of yesterday, and I'll be very brief.

6816   Mr. Badh made comments on our research and said we're ignoring eastern European listeners. That was a rather bizarre claim, in my view. Apparently he hasn't read our application that said -- that has detailed profiles of the communities whom we will serve, and that includes programming each week in seven languages for communities representing Europe and eastern Europe.

6817   It's all in our application, including our detailed programming commitments. We stand by our research; we know this market.

6818   And one other thing. While we respect Ms. McLaughlin and her skills as a researcher, there's a level of depth to the research produced by Style Labs, a Calgary-based company, not found in Mr. Badh's application.

6819   You heard from Mr. Kassamali on Monday, in our view, there's a benefit to having in-depth research performed by someone who lives here in Calgary and knows the business and communities firsthand.

6820   Finally, we had referred yesterday to the difference in coverage that 106.7 and 95.3 will provide and indicated within the full service contours of 106.7 all of Calgary's present and future ethnic population will receive good quality service. And we say that in the knowledge of the fact that radio receivers on FM have improved over the years, and we've appended those coverage maps to this presentation if you still have any technical doubts.

6821   One thing that I'll mention because it came up, I believe, today in Corus' comments.

6822   In Vancouver, we compete with a first adjacent interference problem -- it's not a problem, actually -- from a very powerful US signal which is located in Washington State. They're at 92.9; we're at 93.1.

6823   There is no first adjacency, second adjacency. It's a third adjacency here in Calgary, so we don't foresee the level of difficulty operating in this market. We have the same engineer that designed the plant who was here with us on Monday, Mr. Moltner, and we're absolutely sure that 106.7 can work very well.

6824   We thank you for a fair and enjoyable hearing, and wish you well with your deliberations.

6825   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6826   Just on your map, on your contour maps, did you -- are these two different maps?

6827   MR. LEWIS: Yes.

6828   THE CHAIRPERSON: You have the original map and this is the revised map that you're --

6829   MR. LEWIS: No, this is in the application.

6830   THE CHAIRPERSON: Both these maps.

6831   MR. LEWIS: Yes.

6832   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6833   MR. LEWIS: One -- the first map is 106.7, and it's a smaller -- it's got a smaller circle, if I can call it. And these are what the engineers call realistic coverage.

6834   And you'll see that the three millivolt covers all but a little bit of south Calgary, but it's well within the .5. And that is better than the coverage that we would have in Surrey, White Rock right now.

6835   The large map or the map with the very large coverage simply illustrates the .3, which is very, very large, well outside. And that is 95.3.

6836   So at least, you know, that's the comparison and that's the data that is certainly in each of the technical applications.

6837   THE CHAIRPERSON: And both of these maps were in your original submission.

6838   MR. LEWIS: Absolutely.

6839   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, fine. I just want to make sure on that. Okay.

6840   Questions, Commissioners?

6841   Okay, I think you're off the hook.

6842   MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

6843   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6844   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

6845   I would now invite Alberta Mosaic Radio Broadcasting Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

6846   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

6847   Thank you.

REPLY

6848   MR. BADH: Good afternoon once again, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff.

6849   I'm back again with Jass Gale to my left, Peter Fleming to my right and Sharn Buttar to his right, and Alex is in the studios of Fairchild.

6850   We're here to reply to the written interventions or application as well as the oral interventions presented in Phase III.

6851   MR. FLEMING: First of all, we'd like to address Fairchild's concerns. We consider them to be an excellent broadcaster, providing excellent service in a number of markets to the Chinese and other populations across Canada.

6852   And if you examine our schedule beside theirs, you'll find little duplication in any time slot. This was deliberate.

6853   Duplication would only split the audience for particular groups, lower service for the communities and lower the opportunities for advertisers.

6854   Brokers and Fairchild tell us they could use more time; research told us that audiences were not satisfied. Advertisers want more places to advertise their goods and service. Our arrival will expand the ethnic advertising pie.

6855   With regard to Rogers' concern about potential interference, I would note that Industry Canada has given us a TA.

6856   Yesterday, RED stated we have unrealistically high sell-out rates. In fact, we're very cautious. While we reserve 10 minutes per hour for advertising in theory, we assume that, at maturity, we would only sell eight.

6857   We then cut that in half for our year one calculations. Then, when we done the math to get to our year one revenues, we cut that by 15 percent. So our projected radio revenues are significantly lower than RED's, so it begs the question of who is unrealistic.

6858   Yesterday, Mr. Lewis admitted that the 95.3 is the better frequency and told you that 106.7 was adequate, even if it doesn't reach ranch country. And as the Chairman said yesterday, the associations haven't reached ranch country yet.

6859   But as Ms. Cantler told you, the Latinos have.

6860   MS. GILL: We would like to thank the thousands of people who took the time to provide written interventions of support and comments to all the ethnic applications. Our supporters came from many sources. Members of the community signed petitions and individual letters. Advertisers from the south Asian, Latino, Arabic communities indicated their interest in purchasing time on Mosaic and committed some $120,000 per month in potential sales.

6861   Community organizations from various south Asian, eastern European, African and Caribbean, Latino, Arabic groups spoke of the need for the service, and the credibility of our concept and our programmers.

6862   Representatives of the immigrant and ethnic serving organizations indicated their willingness to work with us to provide high value programming.

6863   I would particularly like to thank three people that appeared today. Thank you to Tony and Laura, who spoke for the over 70,000 people from the under-served Latino, African and Caribbean communities and whom none of the other applicants felt appropriate to approach or to provide service.

6864   Also thanks to Ms. Newman of the CMC, who spoke of the recent influx of immigrants from Africa, South America and southeast Asia.

6865   In Phase II, RED FM told us that in some cases they spoke to communities to see if they could support business. They certainly did not speak to either Mr. Lambert or Senora Canter, or the growing African and Latino communities.

6866   MR. FLEMING: The very first question the Commission posed to the very first applicant was "What will you do to help the communities to integrate into Calgary?"

6867   Mr. Randall this morning provided a description of the diversity of the communities his organization serves with precisely that goal. He noted the importance of radio for people trying to make their way in Calgary, and he spoke of a new initiative called "Clip" to bring the various agencies together.

6868   We have developed relationships with a wide range of these organizations. For example, the Calgary Bridging Foundation for Youth will help us develop content for our youth cross-cultural show, which will provide material for many other shows in many other languages.

6869   The Alberta Network for Immigrant Women and the Calgary Immigrant Women's Association are interested in working with us to provide content in our cross-cultural women's show that can be translated from many other shows, and you can find that in their written interventions.

6870   There are many other such organizations that we reached out to and have indicated their eagerness to work with us. They include Focus on Seniors, the Calgary Catholic Immigration Services, Making Changes, the Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association, Calgary Family Services and the Calgary Police Services Diversity Team.

6871   All of these people get it, and they know that we get it. The road to successful integration of the ethnic communities is through a hand up by sharing information, stories and experiences, both in their home languages and in English, where possible.

6872   We spend time with each of them to see how we can work with them for the benefit of our common clients. No one else even approached them for a token letter.

6873   I would also like to note the support from two umbrella organizations, first, the Ethnocultural Council of Calgary, which represents some 27 organizations. We were the only ones to speak to them, and they agreed with our cross-cultural approach.

6874   Their support, however, is not a blank cheque, as you can read in their intervention. They want to be sure that we will meet the vision we described. So to help us stay on the rails, we asked their Chair, Dr. Ngo, to Chair our advisory council. And Ms. Newman of the Calgary Multi-cultural Centre, who appeared earlier today, also gave us a very strong letter of support and agreed to provide a Board member. In fact, we would like their nominee to be our Vice-Chair.

6875   By the way, it's interesting that RED FM just to now declined to provide an advisory council. In their Vancouver FM applications, RED FM proposed a seven-person advisory council, and from what Mr. Lewis said today, I guess they never implemented that.

6876   Mr. Menzies asked an applicant about the Deerfoot wall. We have thought about that very seriously.

6877   First of all, many of the people who arrive here are already highly qualified, and with the help of organizations like the ones Mr. Randall mentioned, and others, they've already crossed the wall.

6878   And the way to bring others across is not to focus on cultural retention only, but more importantly, on integration. We outlined our programming plans to ensure this.

6879   MS. GILL: After hearing the four other ethnic applicants, you might conclude that Calgary's ethnic population is made up of Chinese, south Asians and a few other small communities. In RED FM's slide presentation, there was a pie chart that showed the growing communities. The pie had three slices; Chinese, south Asian and Filipino, which seemed to make up 100 percent.

6880   RED also stated that the current situation is like a family with two kids, the one, Chinese, is well taken care of, but the south Asian one is less so.

6881   In fact, we believe this is a false analogy. There are at least five groups that are pillars of this community.

6882   Our family will include south Asians, eastern Europeans, Latinos, African-Caribbeans and Arabs, and not to forget Vietnamese and Filipinos. And the family will get even larger in our English-language cross-cultural programs.

6883   We are not just trying to find a narrow niche. We have developed a creative and innovative approach to serving a very broad community. We have received support from all of these communities.

6884   In fact, Tudor Dinca, the youth coordinator of the Romanian-Canadian Cultural Association, signed a letter of support for our application and appeared with us on Monday.

6885   Sinela Jurkova organized a meeting with potential programmers from the Russian, Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbians communities. From that meeting, we found Marek Domaradzki, our Polish producer, Irena Makeva, our Russian producer, and other programmers.

6886   We also had letters of support from the Arabic associations, individuals and businesses, the four largest Latino organizations and a number of umbrella organizations from the Afro-Caribbean communities.

6887   We met with them, explained the concept and took questions, which were sometimes very difficult, before winning their support.

6888   Why did we get this broad-based support? We propose a meaningful service for them, service that will emphasize commonalities, not an hour donated or brokered here or there on Sunday or Saturday, but regularly scheduled programming and significant hours.

6889   We decided early on not to emphasize the number of languages but, rather, the amount of service. Our approach also emphasizes coordinating all of our programmers by making them part of our team with access to a news room, a daily roster of local news stories, feature Mosaic elements and a community affairs coordinator.

6890   The table on the next page shows the amount of south Asian programming for each applicant per week and the number of hours left for others. It also shows the number of hours left for the other communities Monday to Friday.

6891   MR. BADH: None of the other applicants propose any service to the Latino community or the Afro-Caribbean communities, and none propose any cross-cultural programs. So how will the Africans, the Caribbeans, the Latinos and Arabs be able to accompany the south Asians across the Deerfoot wall to join the members of the communities already there, the eastern Europeans and other more established communities when they have no service of any consequence?

6892   You have asked a number of applicants how they would make Calgary a better place. We don't believe that adding another rock, pop or country station will have any real impact in improving Calgary's life, but the diversity of languages and cultures that you saw on our panel, the commitment to service, to 12 percent Canadian content, to locally generated news and other content and to cross-cultural reflection can have a real difference.

6893   We're not talking about programming that keeps people in their communities, but rather, programs that bring them together to share their challenges, their successes and their heritages.

6894   Even RCCD emphasizes bringing musical cultures together in one cross-cultural initiative rather than splitting south Asians from others. As our slogan says, many cultures, one station.

6895   The diverse team you saw here the other day is committed, energetic and passionate. It brings skills in journalism, programming, music, cross-cultural communications and even regulatory affairs. Each is multi-lingual and committed to our vision.

6896   Our team reflects the people of Calgary that are either under served or not served at all. We are ready to launch Mosaic FM. We hope you give us the opportunity.

6897   One last set of thank yous. First, Peter.

6898   MR. FLEMING: Just before we do thank yous, there were a number of statements today challenging what we said yesterday, quoting what we said yesterday, talking about various numbers, whether it's research or others.

6899   I can remember being at a hearing, I think it was, in Kitchener, Ontario where there was a squabble going on between two ex-partners, and they were going back and forth, he did this, he did that, he did this, he did that. And finally, at that time, Commissioner Stewart Langford looked at them and said, "You don't have to do this. We can read, we can do math and, if we can't, our staff can".

6900   So I'm going to leave those facts to you to figure out.

6901   MR. BADH: First, to the team that worked so hard to bring this to you. Many have other jobs, family and other responsibilities. They gave up night and weekends to help fashion this vision.

6902   I'd like to thank the Panel for your interest, patience and energy. Commission staff have been unfailingly accommodating.

6903   Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the contribution of Amul Amari, who is enjoying a well-earned holiday in India. She could be described as the godmother of ethno-cultural integration in Calgary. Without her, we probably would not have found our wonderful local Calgarian team.

6904   You have a difficult task ahead of you. Good luck, and safe travels.

6905   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You covered a lot of territory there.

6906   Questions? No.

6907   Thank you very much.

6908   I'll throw a bit of a curve ball to staff. There's one element that I wanted to cover with RED and that I did not cover with RED. Can we bring them back for one question before we move on?

6909   They're right at the end of the room there.

--- Pause

6910   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, guys. I'm really sorry about this. Nothing to do with the presentation we just heard.

6911   But I think -- I believe it was Monday, we discussed an alternate frequency, 1420 AM. I think you had estimated a drop in revenue of 600,000. I questioned you as to whether or not you thought that was a viable -- if it was a still viable alternate frequency for you, and I wasn't clear that you were as strong as the idea in person here Monday as you were in your submission, I guess, that you deposited a few months back.

6912   Can you clear that up for us?

6913   MR. LEWIS: It's really a matter of penetration of buildings at 10 kilowatts and the resulting revenues, and so if -- and we've come forward with a broadly-based number of groups to be served.

6914   And if you look at the application and the conditions of licence we've proposed, it's scaled way back.

6915   Will we make money? Yes, around the sixth year if all things go well. And that, again, would assume that there's no FM competitor in the ethnic broadcasting genre licensed. So it would have to be, you know, only one. But it would be a difficult struggle, there is no question of it.

6916   THE CHAIRPERSON: Could they make it work?

6917   MR. LEWIS: Yes.

6918   MR. SAMUEL: Absolutely.

6919   THE CHAIRPERSON: If not ethnic broadcaster was licensed on the FM --

6920   MR. LEWIS: And the lesser COLs.

6921   THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. I am just talking about the business model, if it still works for you.

6922   MR. SAMUEL: Yes. One distinguishing factor would be in everything we do we have high quality. So whether it's FM or whether it's AM we, in every step, will have very high quality in our programming, in our sales, in every aspect of it. So, yes, it's going to be difficult, but we will have high quality, which is going to drive more listeners, which will drive advertisers. Thank you.

6923   THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate it. And if I read something into your answer that wasn't there Monday, I am sincerely sorry, but I just wanted to be clear.

6924   MR. LEWIS: We appreciate being able to clear up the record.

6925   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much.

6926   Never a dull moment.

6927   Madam Ventura.

6928   THE SECRETARY: Never.

6929   I now invite Unison Media Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

6930   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, and after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

6931   Thank you.

REPLY

6932   MR. KAHLON: Thank you.

6933   Mr. Chair, Commissioners, it has been a privilege to appear before you in these proceedings.

6934   Again, for the record, I am Apar Kahlon, VP Operations and part owner in Unison Media. On my immediate left is Kuldip Singh, the President of Unison Media and a founder of Radio Sursangam. To Kuldip's left, is Ranjit Sidhu, VP Finance and part owner in Unison Media. On my right is Jyoti Gondek, our VP of Stakeholder Engagement and Marketing. On Jyoti's right is Nancy Randhawa, our youth coordinator. On Nancy's right is Seema Gilani, our Music Director. And behind us, at a respectful distance, is Peter Miller our counsel.

6935   Before I start, I would like to thank the 5,700 interveners who provided support for us. Thank you.

6936   We would like to reply to the following general and specific interventions made against our application.

6937   First, we would like to respond to the arguments by some applicants that an ethnic station would not be the best use of 95.3 MHz and that an AM station would be more appropriate.

6938   Second, we would like to respond to Alberta Mosaic's argument that their research is more accurate, and has led them to targeting underserved ethnic communities missed by us and other ethnic applicants.

6939   Third, we would like to respond to allegations from Multicultural Broadcasting and Punjabi World Network that our financial projections are, for one, too low and the other, too high.

6940   Fourth, we would like to respond to the contention that experience in ethnic radio in Vancouver or Edmonton best qualifies one to serve Calgary's South Asian, and other ethnic, communities.

6941   MS GONDEK: The argument that use of 95.3 FM for Radio Connect would not represent the best use of the frequency appears to stem from the false notion that the niche served by an ethnic station in Calgary would not be as broad as that of a mainstream English-language service.

6942   This argument simply does not bear scrutiny.

6943   Even if Radio Connect only served the South Asian community of Calgary, based on Stats Canada 2006 figures, it would be super-serving 5.4 per cent of Calgary's population.

6944   But we know these figures are too conservative because: number one, Calgary's South Asian community has grown tremendously in the last few years and would now be closer to 7 or 8 per cent of Calgarians; and, number two, by virtue of your broad service requirement, and our plans, we would actually be serving over 10.6 per cent of Calgary's populace based on 2006 home language figures

6945   These figures will grow to 10 per cent for South Asian and 20 per cent for all served communities by the year 2031.

6946   If these numbers sound comparable to the audience and share numbers cited by the mainstream commercial applicants in this proceeding, it is because they are. But we choose to interpret the numbers a bit differently.

6947   One applicant told you that a niche mainstream format might typically do a 1.5 or 2 share. Each of them then suggested that their slightly broader niche format might give a 4+ share or might, say, compete for a core female 25-34 demographic, approximately 8.6 per cent of Calgary's population, or the 18-29 demographic, which would be about 13.9 per cent.

6948   The reality is, that we are no more niche than the mainstream formats before you, but as the first South Asian station, far more material, and a far better use of 95.3 FM.

6949   Mosaic tried to suggest in intervention that we and other ethnic applicants ignored important ethnic communities in Calgary. We can assure you that, for us, this is completely false.

6950   On our limited budget, we focused our consumer research on finding out what potential primary ethnic audiences might want from a new ethnic station. Our Application took that research and added statistical analysis and market knowledge to make the proposal that you have before you.

6951   That proposal is to serve a minimum of 21 groups in 19 languages. Mosaic proposed less, 18 groups in 15 languages.

6952   We and Mosaic chose many of the same groups and languages, but we also chose a number of different ones. Among the larger languages spoken, we chose Persian, Italian, and Portuguese. They chose Spanish and Russian. Among smaller and growing communities that we feel deserve some service, we chose Sindhu, Malayan, Telugu and Assamese. They chose none.

6953   These are differences, to be sure, but we think that they represent a snapshot in time and not a final offer of service.

6954   Equally significant, while Mosaic noted that the Commission does not regulate music format for mainstream commercial stations, they failed to note that the Commission doesn't regulate the non-primary languages or their hours offered by Ethnic Radio stations either.

6955   Rather than serving fewer ethnic communities than Mosaic, we will be serving more. And no doubt, between now and launch, and after launch, we will learn more about which non-South Asian communities have the greatest need and interest in receiving programming, and adjust accordingly.

6956   MR. KAHLON: With respect to an AM station, while it would be true that such an option, if doable, might provide better coverage and quality than an SCMO, it would appear that in Calgary at least, the gap between AM and FM is even greater than the gap between and SCMO and AM.

6957   We indicated to you in Phase I that we estimated the costs of a full power AM antennae array at approximately $1.5 million, excluding land.

6958   Cost aside, the trouble is there is a material risk that if awarded such an AM frequency, we would simply be unable to get the necessary municipal approvals to launch. We've been trying to get a handle on that risk, and while it is impossible to know for sure, we think that the odds of being able to launch, given land use issues, would be maybe 50/50.

6959   Punjabi World Network suggested that our cost estimates were excessive, and that one could launch a low-power rooftop AM antennae for as little as $100,000 to $125,000.

6960   We can assure you that we have looked at this option with our Consulting Engineers, DEM Allen, and regrettably come to the conclusion that it is not feasible. First, it would only reach the 70 per cent of South Asians that live in Northeast Calgary, and not in their basements or larger commercial/ industrial complexes. Second, there isn't a suitable rooftop in Calgary's northeast, at least not one that we can find.

6961   We note that even Punjabi World Network have evidently discovered this. It appears that they were not approved by Industry Canada for their initially proposed rooftop facility on a single story industrial building, and had to change to an operation on a piece of farmlandnortheast of Calgary, bringing back many of the cost and land use permission issues we just mentioned.

6962   We hope we adequately answered your questions about our financial projections in Phase I. But in light of the comments of a couple of applicants, we would however like to add this.

6963   The advantage of being the longest-standing SCMO operator in Calgary is that we know our primary market, the Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi-speaking communities exceedingly well. We know our potential primary audience. We know our potential primary advertisers. And we have conservatively estimated how this will scale from our SCMO to a full-power FM. And, as it turns out, it would be basically times three.

6964   And because our secondary language revenue starts at less than 8 per cent of total, any inaccurate projections on secondary language revenues will by no means be fatal.

6965   That scaling is equally true on the expense side. Sursangam currently provides seven hours of original station-produced news per week, within a 30 per cent spoken word mix. We defy anyone to say that what we provide is not quality programming in everything but the quality of the signal itself. Permanent staff for Radio Connect will be 21 people, three times Sursangam, and fully adequate to meet our news plans of 21.5 hours a week within 60 per cent spoken word overall.

6966   Let's put it another way. The levels of spoken word and news programming offered by other applicants are what Sursangam is already doing. We believe that the privilege of an FM frequency demands more, which is precisely why our news and spoken word commitments are the highest.

6967   MR. SINGH: We believe, that at its core, the choice you face among ethnic applicants is between those with Calgary and out-of-market experience.

6968   Among us, the owners of Unison Media, we have over 30 years experience in Calgary ethnic radio. Other applicants boast zero to perhaps four years.

6969   The out-of-market Calgary applicants have tried to make up for their lack of local experience through money, research and polish. We grant them that.

6970   One of the out-of-market ethnic applicants said in Phase I that radio has to be local to be effective. Another said that success lies in how well you know your community.

6971   We completely agree with both of these statements. What we don't see is the evidence of their ability to deliver, at least not as well as us.

6972   Out-of-market ethnic applicants cannot possibly know this community as well as we who have been in ethnic radio here for over a decade. And I guess we have very different views of what it means to be local.

6973   They want to come into Calgary and setup shop. They want to import their talent, perceptions and experience from their home market into Calgary with whatever variation seems appropriate. And some of those perceptions are troubling. One of them even went on about how new immigrants to Calgary were ignorant. That's not how we see our audience.

6974   If there wasn't another option, perhaps that would be fine. But there is another option. A team that has built this market, SCMO receiver by SCMO receiver for 10 years. A team that knows this market better and has served this market more than anyone. We applaud their successes in Vancouver and Edmonton. But this is about Calgary.

6975   Surely ethnic Calgary deserves one locally-owned and locally-operated ethnic station. And surely that should be the most experienced team with the best and the most realistic proposal before you.

6976   MR. KAHLON: This completes our reply. We would be happy to address any questions you may have, including the reallocation of CCD funds that we initially targeted to the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters.

6977   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you for your structured brief. Thank you for your response on the question of the AM option.

6978   As for your comments on PWN, you know, Industry Canada required the change and that change is reflected in your TA, so that is not really an issue. And I asked for further information on PWN's costing, and they'll be providing that within the next week.

6979   So that being said, any questions?

6980   There you go, you two off the hook.

6981   Est-ce qu'il y a des engagements, Maître Letourneau?

--- Off microphone

6982   Non?

6983   MR. MILLER: Excuse me, counsel, I think you wanted us to respond on the CCD.

6984   MR. KAHLON: We can file it, as you wish.

6985   MS LÉTOURNEAU: Did you file the undertaking or you wanted to respond orally?

6986   MR. KAHLON: I can respond, and if you want I can e-file it today.

Undertaking

6987   MS LÉTOURNEAU: Thank you.

6988   THE CHAIRPERSON: Please respond then if you have it there.

6989   MR. KAHLON: Yes. So in light of the Commission's finding in Broadcasting Decision 2010-440, that CAEB catalogue can no longer be considered an eligible recipient of CCD funding.

6990   We propose to redirect this amount to our annual talent competition to expand this initiative to include other ethnic groups and languages served by the station.

6991   Pursuant to the Commission's policies on activities that qualify for CCD, our aim would be to expand the scope by which this initiative can promote local ethnic music and particularly emerging artists by expanding contestants' eligibility for the talent show and including ancillary activities such as web-based and other promotional vehicles.

6992   THE CHAIRPERSON: And making those funds accessible to numerous cultural communities that you serve?

6993   MR. KAHLON: Yes.

6994   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6995   MR. KAHLON: That is what you wanted.

--- Laughter

6996   THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't look at me -- I'm just looking at staff, I have nothing to do with that. Don't look at me.

6997   Thanks again, we appreciate it.

6998   MR. KAHLON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

6999   THE CHAIRPERSON: And we appreciate your contribution. Thanks so much.

7000   MR. KAHLON: Thank you very much.

7001   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Ventura.

7002   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

7003   I would now invite Diversified Society of Alberta to come forward. Thank you.

--- Pause

7004   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record, after which you have 10 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.

REPLY

7005   MR. BEDI: Thank you.

7006   Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and CRTC Staff.

7007   I am Charn Bedi accompanying Mr. Bobby Doad, who is the founding President and Director of Diversified Society of Alberta which, I reiterate, is a not-for-profit organization owned for and by the volunteers of ethnic communities of South Asian origin to promote social values among community members.

7008   The proposal of this Society to operate an ethnic-based FM radio station is needed to compete on a commercial basis with the bigger companies in the market, not is it to take away any of the market share.

7009   The main focus of the Society will be used to provide a platform to the community masses and promote a spirit of brotherhood among them.

7010   The Society possess an inherent professional, ethnical, legal, financial and administrative support from within its own volunteer members. The modulated frequency has deliberately been kept at low power as the area of interest of the Society is limited to providing services to masses in a restricted zone.

7011   The revenue generated by the Society will be used towards the development of new local youth talent and towards the welfare of the communities. The Society also undertakes the responsibility to provide services to only known communities and languages of its own.

7012   We will adhere to the safety codes of Canada as applicable to FM broadcasting in accordance with the Canadian standards. Programming standards will be ensured in accordance with the regulations and policies.

7013   It is therefore requested that Diversified Society of Alberta be offered an opportunity to participate and serve the communities by non-profitable volunteering and a noble cause.

7014   We wish all the participant applicants the very best in their endeavours. Thank you.

7015   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

7016   Questions?

7017   Thank you very much, gentlemen, very clear. We appreciate it, thank you.

7018   Madam Ventura.

7019   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7020   This completes the consideration of Items 1 to 12 on the agenda. I would like to indicate, for the record, that the intervener who did not appear and was listed on the agenda as an appearing intervener will remain on the public file as a non-appearing intervention.

7021   Also there are five non-appearing applications on the agenda of this public hearing. Interventions were received on some of these applications. The panel will consider these interventions along with the applications and decisions will be rendered at a later date.

7022   This completes the agenda of this public hearing.

7023   Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7024   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are we really done?

7025   I would like to thank everyone that's in the room and everyone that's not in the room, hopefully they're listening somewhere. You know, we really appreciate the fact that everyone came out and worked really hard and I think contributed and participated and people were trying to find solutions, thinking about their own interests, nothing wrong with that, but also thinking about what's in the best interest of the system and how we can best continue to service Calgarians and radio broadcasting generally.

7026   So I thank you all for that. I know you've worked hard not just this week, but for months. I know something about what it takes to prepare, to plead a case and to try to put forth arguments that you believe in. So you're going to sleep well this weekend I hope.

7027   But you're not the only ones that have worked really hard, staff has worked hard -- I mean, this week I don't know when they've slept -- but for a month now preparing the documents, making sure everything is in order and, more importantly, preparing us bozos. I go back to the quote that was made about a former Commissioner at some point, and Menzies says, "speak for yourself," I always am.

7028   But if we don't know how to count and how to read, luckily staff does. So I hope you're happy with the hearing you got and that you felt that you had a full and complete hearing and that you were able to plead your case. And everyone gave it their best shot and we're going to go away and try and give it our best shot as well.

7029   Thank you so much.

7030   And thank you, more importantly, to my fellow Commissioners, it's been a real joy working with all of you.

7031   You guys are very nice to be around you, really. It's been a lot of fun. And I'm actually wearing off on Menzies, he's cracking jokes, he's having fun.

7032   Thank you so much, enjoy.

--- Applause

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1556

REPORTERS

Johanne Morin

Karen Paré

Jean Desaulniers

Monique Mahoney

Date modified:

2012-02-09