ARCHIVED - Transcript, Hearing 18 October 2011

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Volume 1, 18 October 2011



To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2011-571, 2011-571-1 and 2011-571-2


Régence Rooms A & B

Delta Centre-Ville Montréal

777 University Street

Montréal, Quebec

18 October 2011


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission


To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2011-571, 2011-571-1 and 2011-571-2


Tom PentefountasChairperson

Timothy DentonCommissioner

Suzanne LamarreCommissioner


Jade RoySecretary

Véronique LehouxLegal Counsel

Lyne CapeHearing Manager and Manager, Radio Operations and Policy


Régence Rooms A & B

Delta Centre-Ville Montréal

777 University Street

Montréal, Quebec

18 October 2011

- iv -







1. Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership309 / 2056

2. 7954689 Canada inc.312 / 2077

3. Dufferin Communications Inc.328 / 2192




1. Sheldon Harvey330 / 2208


2. Lesbian Gay Archives343 / 2290

3. Danielle Loncar348 / 2333

5. Annex Media353 / 2364


6. Andrew Brookman357 / 2391

    Spiro Krallis360 / 2409

8. Westmount Moving & Warehousing363 / 2430

9. OMD Montreal367 / 2452

- v -






1. Metromedia CMR Broadcasting Inc.376 / 2528

2. Dufferin Communications Inc.384 / 2570

3. 7954689 Canada inc.392 / 2641

4. Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership399 / 2684

- vi -



Undertaking391 / 2628

Undertaking392 / 2634

Montreal, Quebec

--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 0900

2051   LE PRÉSIDENT : Alors, rebonjour à vous tous. J'espère que tout le monde a eu une soirée agréable, entouré de collègues, d'amis, de famille. Je sais que nous, on a eu une soirée agréable.

2052   Alors, Madame Roy, est-ce qu'il y a autre chose à ajouter avant qu'on commence?

2053   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui. Bon matin.

2054   We have now reached Phase II, in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.

2055   We will start with Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership. Please intervene on the competing applications. You have 10 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.


2056   M. BIBIC : Bonjour. Je suis Mirko Bibic.

2057   À ma droite, Chris Gordon, et à sa droite, Wayne Bews; et à ma gauche, Jim Fealy.

2058   Madame et Messieurs les Conseillers, notre demande est importante pour nos auditeurs, nos publicitaires, les employés de notre station et, évidemment, les opérations et la profitabilité de TSN Radio Montréal. Nous avons réellement besoin de l'une des fréquences Classe A maintenant disponibles.

2059   Nous reconnaissons qu'il y a d'autres demandes devant vous, ce qui explique pourquoi nous avons élaboré une proposition qui accommode autant d'entrées et de diversité que possibles, aux coûts les plus bas possibles. Nous notons de plus que nous avons été hier le seul demandeur à le faire.

2060   Ceci étant dit, notre demande représente la meilleure utilisation de 690 ou 940. C'est pourquoi nous nous sommes sentis incités à participés dans cette Phase II de l'audience.

2061   Et maintenant, je cède la parole à Wayne Bews.

2062   M. BEWS : Bon matin.

2063   I have worked for 19 years in radio in Montreal for CHOM and CKGM. I have been an account executive, sales manager and for several years now General Manager of TSN Radio Montreal. It is from this perspective that I offer brief comment on the other applications.

2064   With respect to Mr. Tietolman and Mr. Tétrault's application, it must be understood that 690 and 940 were previously dedicated to the same formats for many years, with some of the best available talent in the city and it did not work.

2065   Moreover, as I am sure the Commission is aware, the business plan presented is very aggressive. According to the CRTC, the total AM market in Montreal reported $19.2 million in revenues in 2010. The market is declining at a rate of 2.4 percent per year. Mr. Tietolman and Mr. Tétrault suggest they will attain over $30 million in revenues by year 7. This is unrealistic.

2066   With respect to Cogeco's English-language traffic station proposal, we note the following:

2067   - Cogeco mentioned yesterday that listeners tune in to traffic radio primarily while on the road. That alone makes 990 a viable option for them. While 990 is not an ideal frequency, it is better suited for traffic than it is for TSN Radio Montreal's service;

2068   - We do not believe a niche operation like traffic should obtain a scarce Class A frequency. Montreal is already well served with numerous traffic reports throughout the day and there are many traffic apps which offer up-to-the-minute traffic conditions.

2069   We also do not believe Cogeco's self-imposed deadline of February 29, 2012 should sway the Commission's decision. The contract between the MTQ and Cogeco should not dictate the best public policy outcome.

2070   With respect to Dufferin's application, it is a niche format which does not require the 690 Class A frequency.

2071   Thank you very much.

2072   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

2073   Madame Roy.

2074   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2075   We will now go with the next applicant. I would ask 7954689 Canada inc. to come to the presentation table.

--- Pause

2076   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself and you have 15 minutes for your presentation. Thank you.


2077   M. GUERARD : Monsieur le Président, Madame la Commissaire, Monsieur le Commissaire, bonjour. Bon matin, devrais-je dire.

2078   Effectivement, nous avons écouté les allocutions des intervenants avec intérêt, mais où est la créativité, l'imagination, l'excitation?

2079   Nous croyons véritablement que nous sommes différents avec notre radio parlée interactive et informative qui offrira une véritable diversité de voix, d'opinions et de commentaires, en plus de sa programmation événementielle, qui est très importante aussi.

2080   Ainsi, nous pourrons définitivement renforcer la vitalité du marché de la radio du Grand Montréal, aussi et surtout participé à la création d'emplois, avec, comme mentionné hier, plus de 100 nouvelles opportunités, et au développement aussi de nouveaux talents, et ce, grâce à une équipe montréalaise créative et passionnée.

2081   Jim.

2082   MR. CONNELL: We are intrigued when we look around at the other proposals by the lack of creativity, the lack of willingness to create great radio, which is something that we are prepared to do.

2083   Everyone else is just basically talking about using these two very powerful frequencies to bail them out of some problem they may have or to carry a service that, as has been previously mentioned, could do well with a less powerful frequency.

2084   We do believe that our proposals for full service, full time, local news and information talk radio stations in a market that is demonstrably starving for an alternate source of news and information programming is the best possible use of such powerful signals.

2085   To own and operate clear channel 50,000-watt frequencies in English and French is a privilege. With this privilege comes the ultimate responsibility: To broadcast quality content.

2086   These are in effect heritage frequencies that are a national resource and should not be wasted or diminished.

2087   Thank you.

2088   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2089   I think monsieur Denton en premier, puis madame Lamarre par la suite.

2090   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Let's just agree with you for a moment. So I think what you're asking us to do is to assign you a frequency and let you go ahead, obviously.

2091   But in a sense we've been warned that this may not work. You know, you could be spending a lot of good money and not getting what you need or getting the audiences you need or the revenues that you need.

2092   MR. CONNELL: I think yesterday's application and the paperwork to back it up says that from our point of view we feel that it is something we can do, that we can accomplish, and Mr. Tietolman would like to expand on that.

2093   MR. TIETOLMAN: Mr. Denton, I think this morning that the gentleman from Bell didn't understand clearly what our project is all about and that I could just clearly state what it is.

2094   A 690 and 940 French and English operated at 20-minute news clock, repeated every 20 minutes 24 hours a day or 18 hours a day, that is not what we propose and that's not what we are proposing.

2095   We are proposing something that we know by research has worked successfully and works successfully currently in every major market.

2096   Absolutely it is not a 20-minute news clock. I mean when you do a --

2097   COMMISSIONER DENTON: I believe you absolutely on this.

2098   MR. TIETOLMAN: Okay. Thank you.

2099   COMMISSIONER DENTON: I think it's going to be as good as you say it is. I'm going to assume that.

2100   MR. TIETOLMAN: Right.

2101   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Now, the market, you know, they've pointed out, is shrinking by 2.4 percent a year.

2102   MR. TIETOLMAN: Right.

2103   COMMISSIONER DENTON: And you're all smart guys.

2104   MR. TIETOLMAN: Right.

2105   COMMISSIONER DENTON: So what gives here?

2106   MR. TIETOLMAN: Well, first of all, the Montreal advertising market globally, including all media -- and I'm including all media -- is a $1.6 billion market.

2107   Unfortunately, we in radio, we sometimes only look to the past and not look to the future and we always rely on the true and the tried without realizing that with innovation, vision, creativity, and in the case of sales, salesmanship, we can dip into that $1.6 billion.

2108   If we take off the radio revenues, it's $1.4 billion and change. That's a lot of money.

2109   Now, a small, minor fraction of 1 percent would easily enable us to wiggle way beyond what our projections currently are that we presented to you.

2110   And in addition to that, as you requested yesterday, we have provided by Raymond Chabot all the financials necessary to show clearly that even if we were 30 percent below our expected revenue projections, we would still be not only profitable over the seven years, we would actually have a positive position cash-wise in the bank with our financing plan that we've proposed and that we submitted to the Commission yesterday and previously when we submitted our application.

2111   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Anyone else want to say anything?

2112   MS BLOOM: If I may.

2113   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Certainly.

2114   MS BLOOM: I represent Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton. I'm a partner there.

2115   And we did work through the numbers --

2116   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Just your name for the record.

2117   MS BLOOM: I'm Corey Bloom. Corey Bloom.

2118   THE CHAIRPERSON: Corey Bloom?

2119   MS BLOOM: Yes. Partner with Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton.

2120   We did run the numbers. We used the projections and we based ourselves on the Léger marketing to begin with for the revenues and we ran the numbers in a number of different ways to do viability studies.

2121   What the group -- and we've spoken at length with senior management of this group and what they propose is actually -- and what they have in place is a very simple -- from accounting standards, a very simple financing structure.

2122   And even with a decline, for example, of 20 percent in revenues with everything else remaining status quo, meaning we didn't touch the costs, we left the same costs, even with a 20 percent decline and projected revenue. There's still excess cash flow from the financing.

2123   In a normal situation, we would actually reduce the costs because commissions are part of your sales, right. If your sales decline, your commission expense will likely decline as well, and we would have declined those costs as well.

2124   So there is excess cash flow even with unforeseen contingencies.

2125   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Was it part of your mandate to question the realism of the projected cash flows at any scenario?

2126   MS BLOOM: I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

2127   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Well, was it part of your mandate to examine and comment upon the projections of revenue?

2128   MS BLOOM: Yes, it was. We were given projections and we were given hypotheses. We reviewed those assumptions and based on the best available evidence at the time, we took it upon ourselves in fact to run different viability options. It was the first question we looked at.

2129   COMMISSIONER DENTON: So this is a question more or less of the study shows, if you do a bunch of testings of hypotheses, this was the range of outcomes projected?

2130   MS BLOOM: Well, that is correct because our main concern when we look at these things is to look at the viability of operations.

2131   COMMISSIONER DENTON: So are you satisfied that those projections are realistic?

2132   MS BLOOM: We are satisfied based on the assumptions we were given that the projections are realistic, and even in the case that they don't attain the full projected revenue, that they do have a buffer which is provided by the additional financing they received.


2134   Anyway, I'm satisfied you guys intend to do what you're going to do, it's just the question is, you know, are you prepared to lose money on this, and you don't believe you are going to lose money?

2135   MR. KOWCH: Well, we consider that as a capital investment long term to build something that will have equity value eventually.

2136   And we've operated in radio before and we've gone through some rough moments, gone up and down the hill, and we realize that it's not all easy, but we're ready. With the vision we have and the philosophy we have, we know it can work. We're sure it can work.

2137   THE CHAIRPERSON: We're kind of somewhat off scope --


2139   THE CHAIRPERSON: -- yeah, with regards to this phase of the hearing.

2140   But, Rajiv, would you like to add something in closing?

2141   MR. PANCHOLY: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you so much. I would like to offer one additional point to Mr. Denton.

2142   Mr. Denton, in our financial plan and in our proposal, one thing that becomes quite evident is that we are not a well-capitalized incumbent that tends to dominate this market. We are a bunch of entrepreneurs.

2143   And, sir, I would like to say to you that a significant part of the risk is being borne by us as individuals and we can offer no stronger belief in what we are doing than put our own cash into this opportunity. We would not do so without that conviction.

2144   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You made that point yesterday.

2145   Madame Lamarre.


2147   Au début de votre intervention, vous dites :

« ... nous avons écouté les allocutions des intervenants avec intérêt... »

2148   Et vous posez la question :

« ...mais où est la créativité, l'imagination, l'excitation? »

2149   Alors, je vous retourne la question. Vous ne pensez pas que la demande qui nous a été présentée par Dufferin remplit ces critères-là, ne serait-ce qu'en partie au moins?

2150   M. GUERARD : C'est définitivement, je crois... les demandes de Dufferin aussi, ils ont une approche... bon, elle est plus musicale, si on veut.

2151   Dans le sens de création, bon, ça rejoint actuellement les formats, mis à part le fait que, bon, c'est une autre liberté sur le plan sexuel, c'est-à-dire la fierté gaie, bon, et caetera, mais de l'autre côté, ça reste quand même une station plus musicale.

2152   Nous, ce que nous proposons, où on croit que l'on est très créatif, c'est d'arriver à être différent, d'être 24 heures sur 24 live, en direct si on veut, sept jours par semaine. Et de pouvoir couvrir l'événementiel, c'est aussi un élément important.

2153   Comme actuellement ce qui se passe au Square Victoria, j'étais là hier matin, non comme broadcaster mais comme curieux pour aller voir ce qui se passait, pour voir l'événement...

2154   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : Oui, mais ma question porte sur ce que vous pensez de la demande de Dufferin.

2155   M. GUERARD : La demande de Dufferin est très bonne. C'est une station musicale orientée vers la musique gaie.

2156   Est-ce qu'il y a tous les moyens? Ils ont peut-être en main tous les... Quand je dis les moyens, je parle carrément de cette musique, cette approche musicale. Mais ça reste une approche musicale, comme beaucoup de stations actuellement à Montréal.

2157   M. TIETOLMAN : Et en plus, on croit que Dufferin n'est... en même temps, c'est un genre de niche programming, comme la circulation.

2158   Ce qu'on va faire, on va créer plus d'une centaine d'emplois dans le Grand Montréal. On va donner l'opportunité aux journalistes, aux animateurs, aux gens qui vont appuyer ces gens-là en ondes. On va donner l'opportunité aux étudiants.

2159   Quand on regarde le portrait de ce qu'on fait...

2160   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : O.K., mais je veux rester sur...

2161   M. TIETOLMAN : Oui, Dufferin.

2162   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : Ma question, c'est sur la station de Dufferin.

2163   Donc, ce que vous me dites, si je vous ai bien compris, Monsieur Tietolman, c'est que la différence qui est pertinente selon vous, c'est qu'ils ont une programmation qui est une niche, comme vous venez de dire, alors que vous, vous allez rejoindre un plus grand public, et c'est ce qui fait une différence déterminante pour vous?

2164   M. TIETOLMAN : Exactement. Et surtout, comme un clear channel frequency, écoute, il faut que tu serves le plus possible la population at large.

2165   Puis en plus, Dufferin, on ne critique pas du tout ce qu'ils ont présenté, mais on croit sincèrement qu'il y a d'autres fréquences qui pourraient bien servir leurs besoins.


2167   LE PRÉSIDENT : Juste pour être clair, dans cette phase ici, ce qu'on aimerait savoir, ce sont vos commentaires sur les demandes concurrentes et pas nécessairement...

2168   On a entendu pourquoi on devrait donner la licence aux demandes diverses. On aimerait vos commentaires sur les autres, et c'est votre chance de critiquer leur demande ou une session de « bitchage », si vous voulez, autrement dit, mais voilà!

2169   So if there's anything you would like to add, Mr. Tietolman, on -- and you spoke briefly -- tu as parlé brièvement sur Cogeco et sur Evanov, mais voilà votre chance d'adresser les autres demandes, sans être trop dur.

2170   M. TIETOLMAN : Sans être trop dur, O.K. On ne peut pas trop attaquer les autres parce que...

2171   LE PRÉSIDENT : Par politesse.

2172   M. TIETOLMAN : ...on respecte tout le monde, et chacun parmi nous a une raison d'être et une option différente, bien sûr, puis on les respecte pour ça.

2173   Mais quand on regarde exactement ce que madame Lamarre a dit hier... C'est un ingénieur d'expérience. On a un grand respect pour elle. Elle a mentionné que quand Bell dit dans leur demande, on veut une station clear channel 690 parce que les gens qui quittent le Centre Bell après un match de hockey veulent entendre le after-game show...

2174   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

2175   M. TIETOLMAN : Excusez-nous de le dire, mais moi, je me souviens en '97 d'être présent, j'ai fait la demande pour le 95,1 à l'époque, et je me souviens que les gens intelligents et bien capables de Radio-Canada ont dit clairement dans leur demande que l'interférence qui existe à cause de la densité des grands édifices au centre-ville de Montréal, on perd le signal de 690 et même encore plus 940.

2176   Bell dit qu'il faut avoir l'un des deux, mais honnêtement, donne-lui 1 million de watts même à 690, ça ne va changer rien du tout dans l'interférence qui existe déjà, et c'est encore pire aujourd'hui qu'il y a une quinzaine d'années, c'est sûr.

2177   De l'autre côté, on a fait les tests nous-mêmes. On a même preuve de ça.

2178   On est allé jusqu'à Rigaud dans le West Island, et honnêtement, si je suis à CJAD, même à CKAC Circulation, en ce moment, ils rentrent moins bien dans l'auto, et je comprends que l'auto va avoir une meilleure réception que dans la maison ou dans le bureau, mais ces deux stations ont un signal moins fort, moins clair, moins précis que même 990 CKGM Sport Radio TSN.

2179   Écoute, honnêtement, on a fait ça jusqu'à Hawkesbury, puis ça rentre, comme on dit en anglais, a ton of bricks, clear like a bell.

2180   Honnêtement, on a fait l'étude, et on croit sincèrement peut-être qu'ils veulent infiltrer dans la région des Senators d'Ottawa et monsieur Melnyk et aussi à Québec éventuellement pour les Nordiques de Québec.

2181   S'ils veulent couvrir ces régions, il ne faut pas, comme on dit, aller trop loin. Peut-être qu'il faut demander de former un réseau comme les Expos de Montréal à l'époque de CKAC ou même les Toronto Blue Jays à Toronto ou les Toronto Maple Leafs à Toronto et avoir des affiliations partout dans le Québec ou l'Ontario pour les matchs des Canadiens de Montréal et ne pas brûler la valeur d'une fréquence clear channel comme 690 ou 940, qui pourrait mieux servir la population at large montréalaise.

2182   LE PRÉSIDENT : Là, on rentre dans le vif du sujet. C'est bien.

2183   D'autres questions, Madame Lamarre?


2185   LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Denton?


2187   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci beaucoup.

2188   M. TIETOLMAN : Merci beaucoup.

2189   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

2190   I would ask Dufferin Communications Inc. to come to the presentation table.

--- Pause

2191   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes. Thank you.


2192   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you. Good morning. My name is Carmela Laurignano. With me is Andrée Wylie with Blakes LLP.

2193   We thank you for the opportunity to be here in this phase. I will be very brief.

2194   Some references have been made by applicants about possible available AM frequencies, and without going into the technical merits or demerits of any of them, we would like to offer that some of these are already under consideration by the Commission.

2195   I refer specifically to CRTC Consultation 2011-427, wherein is contained an application that was heard and considered in a September hearing for Neeti Ray OBCI, who has applied for 600 kHz, Radio Humsafar applied for 1400, La Méga Radio for 1610, and AM Gospel Media for 1530.

2196   We are fairly sure that this fact was not lost on you, but we thought we would bring that out in the context of their suggestion that there are thousands of frequencies available for other applicants' use.

2197   These are our comments for today, for this phase, but we will be back later.

2198   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2199   I would now ask Métromédia CMR Broadcasting Inc. to come to the presentation table.

2200   MR. MAYRAND: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. I am Yves Mayrand, Vice President of Corporate Affairs, and with me is Richard Lachance, Senior Vice President, Radio.

2201   We stand by our comments that we filed in a written submission on September 22nd. We have nothing to add to that.

2202   I don't know whether you have any further questions at this time. We would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

2203   COMMISSIONER DENTON: Mr. Mayrand, this is unprecedented, a lawyer having nothing further to add.

--- Laughter

2204   THE CHAIRPERSON: Such a gentleman, you have nothing ill to say about your competitors here today. We appreciate it. Thank you.

2205   THE SECRETARY: This completes Phase II for this hearing.

2206   We will now proceed to Phase III, in which intervenors appear in the order set out on the agenda to present their intervention.

2207   We will begin with Mr. Sheldon Harvey.


2208   MR. HARVEY: Good morning, everyone.

2209   I am here today as a potential consumer of the four radio undertaking applications being presented at this CRTC hearing. In other words, I am a radio listener, a member of the general public, with no personal or business connection to any of the applicants.

2210   I appreciate the process in which our country and its broadcast regulator, the CRTC, provides to allow an individual like myself to express my views on the various applications being presented over these two days.

2211   The nature of my interventions against Dufferin Communications and Métromédia CMR applications, and my intervention in support of the applications of 7954689 Canada, in broad terms, focus on the existence and the intended purpose of clear channel radio frequencies.

2212   The classification of clear channel radio stations on the AM band was implemented in the United States on November 11th, 1928. The classification system considered stations in Canada, as well.

2213   Canada signed on to the North American Regional Broadcasting Agreement, the Havana Treaty, giving it a total of 6 high-powered or clear channels, 33 regional channels, and 6 local channels. This agreement was ratified in 1941.

2214   The intent behind licensing 50-kilowatt clear channel stations was to provide reliable radio service to the thousands of people who live in the vast rural areas beyond the major cities. I believe this intent should hold true today.

2215   Stations licensed to operate on clear channel frequencies, given their technical ability to provide wide coverage, should be of a type and format that best serves the largest and most widely spread audience within their coverage area. The frequencies of 690 kilohertz and 940 kilohertz in Quebec have historically served audiences throughout the province in both languages.

2216   Given the recent exodus of many AM radio stations to the FM band across the country, and more specifically, in Quebec, the complete shutdown of many AM radio stations and networks that previously provided news and information to Quebecers in both languages, the province has been left without reliable, full-service news and information stations.

2217   I outlined in my intervention in support of the applications of 7954689 Canada Incorporated that during the recent visit by Hurricane Irene to southern Quebec, the population was left with little, if any, live news, weather, health, welfare and emergency information, at a time when it needed it most.

2218   FM stations played music, many of them automated. The only news and information station serving the English community in the province, CJAD, spent most of that Sunday in question broadcasting pre-recorded or brokered programming.

2219   The primary French-language news and information station, Cogeco's CHMP 98.5 FM, piped in recorded pop music, as they do each weekend.

2220   This is unacceptable and, in fact, embarrassing for the second-largest population centre in our country.

2221   Dufferin wishes to serve the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities in French, using one of the two available clear channel frequencies.

2222   Métromédia CMR wishes to provide English traffic information, predominantly for the metropolitan Montreal region, in conjunction with the Quebec Ministry of Transport, using one of the two available clear channel frequencies.

2223   Bell Media wishes to change frequencies to one of the two available clear channel frequencies, to provide improved coverage for their sports programming in English.

2224   Only 7954689 Canada Incorporated plans to create radio stations that would serve the population of the province of Quebec as a whole, including people making up the target audiences of the other applicants. They are the only applicant offering radio stations that would truly fit the purpose for which the clear channel frequencies were originally established, providing news, talk, information, weather, sports, traffic, et cetera, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, reaching all corners of our province and beyond.

2225   There are many other options available for Dufferin, Métromédia and Bell to be able to meet the needs of their fractional segments of the overall population. Class B and C frequencies allocated to this region are currently available. Stations in the Montreal region successfully used these frequencies in the past.

2226   For Métromédia, I suggested in my intervention that they consider applying to the CRTC to do something truly revolutionary in Montreal by offering their all-traffic programming in a bilingual format on their now French-only radio station on 730 kilohertz. This frequency seems to cover their desired target area just fine.

2227   If Dufferin can make 40 watts on FM work for them in Toronto, they could certainly make huge inroads with the Montreal region's LGBT audience using perhaps 5 kilowatts, 100 times the power, on a B or C class AM frequency.

2228   As for Bell Media, I believe that their signal problems after dark to the west are more about the power quality of AM receiving equipment being sold today and less about the pattern change at night.

2229   In fact, I have monitoring reports from listening colleagues west of Montreal and far beyond which appear to indicate that the station may not, in fact, be currently switching power or patterns at night.

2230   I respectfully ask the Commission to respect the history and the intent of clear channel radio frequencies in Canada and to award the two frequencies to the only applicant whose stations would best serve the population of the province of Quebec through the use of clear channel frequencies, that being the Tietolman/Tétrault 7954689 Canada Incorporated applications.

2231   Thank you.

2232   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

2233   In the second-last paragraph you say, "I have monitoring reports from listening colleagues west of Montreal and far beyond which appear to indicate that the station may not, in fact, be currently switching power or patterns at night."

2234   Could you elaborate on that?

2235   MR. HARVEY: Definitely.

2236   Maybe just a little background as to who I am and what I do.

2237   I am president of Canada's National Radio Monitoring Club, a club that has been in existence since 1962. We are people who listen to the radio. A lot of us have technical backgrounds, some are just casual listeners.

2238   We are also associated with the National Radio Club, which is an AM radio monitoring club in North America.

2239   I have personally contacted members who live in the areas that Bell is saying they cannot reach.

2240   I have colleagues living in the surrounding areas of Montreal who have reported full-signal reception of the station at night, at a time when they are supposed to have changed their pattern.

2241   I have two colleagues, one in St. Louis, Missouri, and one in Chicago, Illinois, who filed reports to me, indicating that the readings they have taken on the signal -- which, by the way, they have been hearing most nights -- full-signal strength in those two locations on 990 kilohertz.

2242   They were the ones who indicated to me that, based on their monitoring experience, they do not believe that the station during those periods was actually switching to their nighttime pattern. When they do switch, these people cannot hear them.

2243   THE CHAIRPERSON: This happens occasionally?

2244   MR. HARVEY: More than regularly.

2245   I did not submit those reports, but they are available from numerous people.

2246   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Lamarre, do you have questions?

2247   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Mr. Harvey, Corus operated those two frequencies in a similar format for years, and Corus is a corporation that has means, talent, experience and great success, also, in English Canada. And yet, here in Montreal, they threw in the towel with those two frequencies.

2248   What makes you confident that Tietolman/Tétrault will be able to pick up that towel and run with it?

2249   MR. HARVEY: I listened to those two Corus radio stations when they were on the air, 640 and 690. It wasn't a product that people could consume as listeners. It didn't provide what people were looking for. It certainly didn't provide me with what I was looking for.

2250   I mirrored their operations against full, all-news radio services, similar to, for example, WCBS in New York City, which is one of the top-rated stations in their market.

2251   I don't believe that the effort that was put into the two radio stations in Montreal, the effort of marketing these stations, of explaining to the listenership of Montreal how to use these stations, was properly done.

2252   I think that all-news has worked everywhere else, there is no reason that it shouldn't have worked here. It worked in Toronto, but it took a long time to get people used to using it, and to properly implement it in the market.

2253   You said it yourself, they abandoned the project. I believe that they left it too soon. I don't think they allowed it to mature. I don't think they marketed the product properly.

2254   When I look at the new applications that have been filed for these types of stations, they are not all-news stations. They have a lot of news in them. They provide alternative news that the sources we have now limit greatly. They give people an option. They break into a monopoly, basically, of what we have in news coverage on the radio. They provide -- they intend to provide something totally different.

2255   They have experienced broadcasters behind them who have proven records in what they have done with other radio operations in the past.

2256   One of their people, Steve Kowch, has operated so successfully with CJAD in Montreal and CFRB in Toronto. Both of those stations continue to do what they do; as does CJAD here in Montreal dominate the market in that field.

2257   I think that these people, with their experience, can offer that alternative, and offer it with a commitment to making it work and to explaining to the population what it is really there for, and how to properly use it.

2258   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Okay. Thank you.

2259   You also mentioned that you are a regular listener, at the beginning of your presentation, and you said that you also do radio monitoring. I have to ask you this: Do you listen to radio in both French and English, or just in English?

2260   MR. HARVEY: I don't listen to radio in French as much as I probably should, but I do --

2261   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Oh, you don't have to make excuses, I am just being curious.

2262   MR. HARVEY: No, it's just that English is my mother tongue, that's what I am more comfortable in.

2263   But, definitely, when major events happen, particularly within our province, I will try to compare what we have, and I just find that we don't have a lot of things to compare.

2264   I often find myself having to go outside the region to get input from outside, if the regions outside even care what goes on here.

2265   I think, by using clear channel radio frequencies for this type of operation, in both official languages, we not only have the ability to hear a second opinion on things in the Montreal region and in the province of Quebec, but because of the nature of those clear channels, people in the surrounding areas -- the French-speaking population of New Brunswick, the French-speaking population in eastern Ontario, for example -- can hear those clear channel frequencies. They may be interested in what is going on in Montreal, what is going on in Quebec. These types of stations provide them that alternative listening, as well.

2266   Our neighbours to the south, the same thing.

2267   I do that, I shop around to get different opinions, different viewpoints. I cannot do that right now in Montreal, there is no option available to me.

2268   In English, for example, if you don't listen to CJAD for news, talk, information, there is nothing else, and I cannot understand how that happens in the second-largest city in our country.

2269   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Mr. Harvey, thank you very much for coming and meeting with us this morning.

2270   MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.

2271   THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you have to say about the fact that there is a public broadcaster in English that offers news and information, and there is a public broadcaster in French that offers news and information, as a counterweight to 98.5 and CJAD?

2272   MR. HARVEY: CBC Montreal, to be honest --

2273   THE CHAIRPERSON: Please.

2274   MR. HARVEY: -- just doesn't cut it.


2276   MR. HARVEY: The Montreal operation is limited to a morning show and a drive-home show and a noon-hour open-line show, but it is run by Radio-Canada, to begin with.

2277   I have actually filed complaints to the CBC about the lack of English coverage on the English side of CBC Montreal, because it is basically a translation of French services.

2278   The French market is served reasonably well, but the CBC does not have an audience in Quebec like it does in the rest of the country, for whatever reason, and I don't quite know what it is.

2279   I am not a big listener to it myself. I just find that their focus is not local enough for me, and, to a certain extent, not even regional.

2280   An example -- again I come back to Hurricane Irene. I actually filed a complaint to the CBC about this.

2281   The morning after the storm, the Monday morning, the national news that we are fed through the CBC local stations interviewed people from New Brunswick about the impact of the storm. They did not even speak to someone from the province of Quebec. It was like we didn't exist to them.

2282   It's our national broadcaster, and the last time I checked, Quebec is still a part of Canada. I don't know why we were completely ignored by these national services.

2283   I really think their local service is lacking. I think it's due to a lack of resources. It's just not an alternative for me, and I know that a lot of colleagues feel the same way.

2284   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you, sir.

2285   MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

2286   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2287   We will now proceed with the next presenters. I would ask that you please come up to the presentation table: Lesbian Gay Archives, Danielle Loncar, and Annex Media.

2288   These four intervenors are appearing as a panel to present their interventions. We will hear each presentation, which will then be followed by questions from the Commissioners to the panel.

2289   I would now invite Lesbian Gay Archives to begin. Please introduce yourself, and you will have five minutes for your presentation.


2290   MR. MURRAY: Hi, my name is Pearse Murray. I am a Board member of the Lesbian Gay Archives, so I would like that noted, please.

2291   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, our Toronto PROUD-FM is an extremely community-minded station. We are able to promote events as soon as we are informed. We have a couple of interesting segments.

2292   THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you submit a written document?

2293   MR. MURRAY: I don't have one. Did you want me to get a photocopy of this for later?

2294   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that's fine. I just wanted to see if there was one. Otherwise, I am looking for no reason.

2295   No problem, go ahead, sir.

2296   MR. MURRAY: I will start at the beginning again.

2297   Every community needs to have its voice heard. The gay community in Montreal is large, vibrant and diverse. In Toronto, PROUD-FM is able to reach out to the whole community, whether it be mainstream gays or members of the lesbian, trans, bi, drag or leather communities -- and not to forget our large straight audience.

2298   As you know, people living in a big city often feel isolated. That's why a gay radio station like PROUD-FM helps them realize that they are not alone. It reaches out to them, and delivers entertainment and information. It makes them feel that they belong and are part of a family.

2299   A gay radio station is a fast, efficient way to get a news story to its listeners, whereas print or mainstream radio stations might take a few days to comment on a story, or might not even mention it at all.

2300   For example, last Wednesday, October the 11th, Frank Kameny, also known as the father of the LGBT civil rights movement, passed away. We were able to let our community know immediately of his death.

2301   We also cater to a niche market. Advertisers can also reach out to this unique community, with services and products that would appeal to this market.

2302   As I said earlier, our Toronto FM is extremely community-minded. We have different segments on our station. We have "Village Update" and "What's Going On", which are both geared to events that are of interest to our listeners.

2303   Our "Gay in History" show focuses on stories and events of yesteryear, keeping our history alive and informing our youth of where we came from.

2304   Our fabulous morning show interviews both gay and straight celebrities.

2305   Our "Front Row Centre" show celebrates Broadway musicals.

2306   Our gay youth often needs to be reinforced that being gay is okay. Hearing this from an older gay person or someone of their own age strengthens this.

2307   As you know, a lot of gay youth are estranged from their families. Some are taunted by their peer group. It is not easy being young and gay. Many young gays commit suicide.

2308   PROUD-FM has done stories on SOY, which stands for "Supporting Our Youth". We have endorsed GSA's, which stands for "Gay/Straight Alliances", in schools. We have done benefit concerts to provide funds to the Triangle Program, which is a gay school, and to various HIV/AIDS programs in the city.

2309   Now, why do I volunteer for PROUD-FM?

2310   When I turned 65, I thought I wanted to do something different, and PROUD-FM had just come on the air. I felt that a voice for the senior community was needed.

2311   As you know, senior citizens in both the straight and gay communities are often overlooked.

2312   I have been out as a gay man for over 50 years, I love my life, I love my history, I love being gay. PROUD-FM has allowed me to pass on some of the knowledge and pride that I have gained over the years.

2313   To close, a straight friend of mine recently commented to me that she listens to PROUD-FM and has gained a better understanding of the gay community, and she added that we play the best music.

2314   Thank you.

2315   THE CHAIRPERSON: Your organization is called Gay Lesbian Archives?

2316   MR. MURRAY: Yes.

2317   THE CHAIRPERSON: And the purpose --

2318   MR. MURRAY: Keeping our history alive.

2319   We have a building and we have been --

2320   THE CHAIRPERSON: In Toronto?

2321   MR. MURRAY: Yes. The Archives has been going -- it's actually the Canadian Lesbian Gay Archives, but it is centred in Toronto, and it is an organization that has been going for 40 years.

2322   THE CHAIRPERSON: At the Archives you keep what, clippings --

2323   MR. MURRAY: Clippings, books, stories, pictures, sometimes materials.

2324   THE CHAIRPERSON: Canadian --

2325   MR. MURRAY: Canadian.

2326   THE CHAIRPERSON: -- gay and lesbian archives?

2327   MR. MURRAY: Strictly Canadian. It's called the Canadian Lesbian Gay Archives.

2328   THE CHAIRPERSON: Great. Thank you, sir.

2329   MR. MURRAY: Thank you.

2330   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...

2331   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Danielle Loncar to present.

2332   You will have five minutes for your presentation.


2333   MS LONCAR: Thank you for this opportunity.

2334   My name is Danielle Loncar and I am a Toronto business owner. I am also the midday, weekday host on PROUD-FM, which is Toronto's LGBT radio station.

2335   I have seen firsthand what a wonderful resource PROUD-FM is for Toronto's LGBT community. A true sense of community and support has lent itself to fundraising, social awareness, and even education -- and I will be giving you examples of these.

2336   Before I was working in radio, I was a lover of the medium. Now that I have witnessed how people can really gain a sense of inclusiveness by listening to a special station like PROUD-FM, I am an even bigger advocate. I have been afforded opportunities through PROUD-FM that wouldn't otherwise have been as readily available or even possible. I speak with confidence when I say that I am not singular in this sentiment and that my experiences would be mirrored by others in Montreal if Radio Fierté would hit the airwaves.

2337   When I listen to radio I hope to enjoy the music, be interested in the talk subjects and feel connected to the hosts.

2338   I want to feel respected, reflected, valued and then part of a community. With other stations I sometimes hear my musical tastes reflected or my geographical location discussed and that's where it begins and ends.

2339   An LGBT station is special because it becomes an integral part of the community, a community that has thus far been largely untapped.

2340   A special station for special people serving a niche market is unique among the myriad of radio choices already available. There is a fair share of gay media aimed at straight people but very little gay media aimed at gay people.

2341   The LGBT community is a tight, accountable and involved community that pays attention when things affect or us speak to us. If an LGBT person talks, LGBT people listen.

2342   I believe Radio Fierté will provide a distinct new francophone voice for the LGBT community in Montreal.

2343   The government's support of Le Village shows there is already an interest in LGBT businesses. Radio Fierté will take that support to the next level by by helping businesses grow, promoting local recording artists, sponsoring events and informing the community.

2344   The continued success of PROUD-FM in Toronto is a testament to this kind of success and community outreach trailblazing.

2345   And I just now wanted to quickly give you some examples of how we educated our listeners, so just a couple examples here:

2346   September 23rd is Celebrate Bisexuality Day. Bisexuals are one of the most misunderstood communities within the spectrum, the LGBT spectrum that is.

2347   They face stigma from both sides, often not being fully part of the straight world nor fully embraced by the LGBT community, they face bigoted responses such as being told to pick a side. They are often dismissed as sexually promiscuous and/or rejected as romantic partners or even as friends by people who have fear-based responses to the ambiguities of their sexuality.

2348   For Celebrate Bisexuality Day, we did a series of stigma-breaking promotional spots on air where announcers said things like "Bisexuals aren't sitting on the fence. They are tearing them down".

2349   Beyond this shows did special talk breaks to discuss the special situation of bisexuals.

2350   The morning team interviewed Ilanik Goran(ph) who is the Coordinator at FLUID or SOY which is supporting our youth. Fluid is a youth group for young people who identifies bisexual, pansexual, fluid, questioning or anything else that doesn't fit into the orientation binary.

2351   The voice gave Ilanik Goran a chance to talk about her experience as a bisexual adult, discuss how ignorance had affected her and compared to how support in education has helped the young people in supporting our youth and the community surrounding Bringing her on the show also provided listeners in similar situations with resources.

2352   Furthering education -- often people think that because gay marriage has been legalized in this country the fight for equality is over. This is far from the truth.

2353   PROUD-FM educates people on things such as Bill C-389, the Trans Rights bill which has yet to be implemented. Bill C-389 would classify trans people as a group that can be specifically discriminated against. It would include them in protection under hate crime and hate speech laws and increased trans equality.

2354   PROUD-FM has had extensive coverage of this topic, both through interviews and host commentary.

2355   Also, PROUD-FM let's people know what is happening globally.

2356   Britain recently legalized blood donations from gay men. Canada has yet to do this, continuing to discriminate against homosexual men through AIDS stigma. Not only does this imply that gay men are the only group that can contract AIDS but ignores the fact that with modern medical science AIDS blood testing can be done almost instantaneously.

2357   PROUD-FM lets people know.

2358   Some individuals may follow websites that will bring them this information or even hear about it through social media outlets such as Twitter but the format of radio shows allows us to present the information in full, contextualize it, bring in experts and follow the story as it unravels. We teach straight and LGBT people alike without them having to search with keyboards for articles.

2359   Thank you.

2360   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

2361   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2362   We will now hear the presentation from Annex Media. Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.

2363   Thanks.


2364   M. LEBLOND : J'ai choisi de faire cette présentation...

2365   Je suis Philippe Leblond, un associé de Annex Media, dont le président est à côté de moi, Brian.

2366   J'ai choisi de faire cette présentation en français, mais évidemment...

2367   If something is not clear, please interrupt me and I will continue in English.

2368   Je viens, donc, de la part de Annex Media, une compagnie montréalaise spécialisée dans la conception de matériel médiatique et de sites Web. Notre client, Dufferin Communications, souhaite d'ouvrir à Montréal un poste de radio AM de langue française, au service de la communauté lesbienne, gaie, bisexuelle et transgendre et combler ainsi une lacune fort fâcheuse.

2369   Annex Media développe et entretient des sites Web corporatifs et publics et les entretient en particulier du groupe Evanov Radio, d'excellents radiodiffuseurs indépendants -- c'est un point important, ça -- dont fait partie Dufferin Communications. Nous collaborons depuis cinq ans avec plusieurs des postes de radio de ce groupe, dont en particulier PROUD-FM à Toronto, qui serait donc le pendant du poste proposé, Radio Fierté à Montréal.

2370   Grâce en partie à notre collaboration avec Dufferin Communications, Annex Media a pu grandir, augmenter le nombre de ses employés. Et il est encourageant de voir une entreprise ontarienne investir et soutenir une compagnie locale qui serait ainsi en mesure de créer de nombreux nouveaux emplois dans la ville et au service de cette communauté unique.

2371   Que Montréal choisisse de transformer en été la rue Sainte-Catherine du « Village » en passage piétonnier souligne l'importance de cette communauté qui non seulement contribue au développement d'un des quartiers les plus prospères de la ville, mais aussi attire de nombreux touristes étrangers et ce, tout au cours de l'année.

2372   Montréal a besoin des services d'une radio libre et indépendante pour ce groupe en pleine croissance au même titre que d'autres communautés ethniques ici.

2373   Il est aussi important de noter que la communauté dite LGBT n'est pas restreinte à ce qu'on appelle « Le Village », mais des gays, lesbiennes, transsexuels, transgendres sont partout dans la province et souvent très isolés à cause de ça. Donc, il est important d'avoir un poste de radio qui puisse... d'une puissance suffisante pour couvrir même plus que la communauté qui habite dans la région de Montréal.

2374   Nous favorisons une plus grande tolérance et souhaitons une grande diversité sur les ondes de la radio locale. Nous sommes certains que cette nouvelle station de radio connaîtra un franc succès à Montréal et n'offrira que des retombées positives pour tous.

2375   Je voudrais ajouter personnellement quelque chose qui a été mentionné par mon collègue. C'est que les jeunes, les adolescents en particulier, même si nous vivons dans une société qui est beaucoup plus libérale à l'égard de cette communauté gaie et lesbienne, souffrent en milieu scolaire, et plus encore ailleurs, et d'un isolement qui est vraiment déplorable et dangereux pour eux.

2376   D'avoir une radio à laquelle ils peuvent s'identifier et qui leur permet de, sans être obligé de s'exposer, d'écouter et de s'identifier, donc, à cette communauté, je trouve ça d'une importance cruciale, ayant moi-même un frère qui était gay et qui, quand nous étions jeunes, ne pouvait pas s'exprimer, n'avait aucun moyen de contact avec une communauté qui était de son penchant affectif.

2377   Mesdames, Monsieur, merci beaucoup.

2378   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci beaucoup de votre présentation, surtout de votre témoignage personnel, Monsieur Leblond. Merci!

2379   Des questions, Monsieur Denton?

2380   Madame Lamarre? Non, ça va? Good!

2381   Vous n'avez rien à ajouter? Merci!

2382   Thank you.

2383   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

2384   We will now proceed with a presentation by Andrew Brookman, Spiro Krallis, the Westmount Moving & Warehousing and OMD Montreal.

2385   Please come to the presentation table.

--- Pause

2386   LE PRÉSIDENT: Vas-y.

2387   Go ahead.

2388   Y a-t-il un ordre, Madame Roy?

2389   Oui, hein, il y a toujours un ordre.

2390   THE SECRETARY: I will now invite Andrew Brookman to begin. You have five minutes for your presentation. Thank you.


2391   MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, Commissioners.

2392   My name is Andrew Brookman and I am here representing TSN 990's license amendment application for a better frequency.

2393   I am a father of five very active kids who enjoys sports and being active a great deal. While my enjoyment of sports lead me to playing football at McGill in my youth, it is now limited to enjoying softball at the local ball field.

2394   But this enjoyment of sports has guided me to volunteering at the local level, coaching many teams (and sports), and now finds me as volunteer president of two local sports organizations, both Hockey West Island and Baseball West Island.

2395   I believe that sports in general, the enjoyment of sports; playing of sports, et cetera, play a large role in leading an active lifestyle. And an active lifestyle in today's world, quite simply means "life on the go".

2396   As much as we spend time playing these sports we love, we spend time traveling to-and-from these sports and this means time in the car shuttling to and from activity to activity.

2397   It is while in the car, traveling over Montreal at night, where I found that I have had the most trouble getting clear reception of "The Team" or TSN 990.

2398   On our way to and from baseball, hockey or ringette games, I would find reception poor, static or cutting in and out, and this was while on the Island of Montreal. When games or practices take my family and me off the Island, even a few kilometres, we have an even greater difficulty getting good reception.

2399   A perfect example of this is while driving along Highway 40, the TCan, in the direction of Vaudreuil or Hudson, there is a fork in the road that takes you in the direction of the 401 to Toronto or the 417 to Ottawa. This fork is a mere 6 kilometers off the island and yet reception can cut in and out.

2400   On top of sports being a key component of an active lifestyle, I believe they also play an important role in the day-to-day social life of our local communities. People who are active and enjoy sports want to listen to sports being discussed.

2401   I have listened to TSN 990 since its inception and I am not alone.

2402   The "topic du jour" on any given day at TSN 990 is very often the "topic du jour" between friends and neighbours at the local arenas and ball fields. It is at those same arenas and ball fields where The Team has shown their community spirit and support in the past by broadcasting on location.

2403   As a volunteer for these local associations, I believe this exposure brings a definite sense of pride to the fore for our associations. It is this sense of pride in the local sports associations that can translate into increased number of volunteers, growing support, which then translates into the betterment of sports programs in our communities.

2404   I would welcome any expansion of local programming because it really does translate into increased community support for our local associations.

2405   Thank you.

2406   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

2407   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2408   I would now ask Spiro Krallis to begin. You have five minutes. Thank you.


2409   MR. KRALLIS: Good morning. I am owner and founder of Dagwoods Sandwiches and Salads.

2410   Our first location opened in 1989 and now after 22 years, we have 12 corporate stores and 13 franchised.

2411   Today, I am speaking to you as long time advertiser on the past Team 990. I'm actually proud to say that we signed the very first contract with the Team back 10 years ago.

2412   I'm also speaking as an avid listener to that station.

2413   As an advertiser I can say that Dagwoods competes with major U.S. chains that cover every single station on the dial. They are on TV stations and on billboards.

2414   With our limited budget because we are much smaller, we are limited to secondary stations and some FM stations.

2415   Now for us every listener counts to help grow our business and to compete with the majors. When a signal doesn't come in, I know our message reaches less people.

2416   And although we are proud advertisers on TSN radio and feel like we are part of the family, I sometimes question my investment as I know the signal is weak in downtown area and in the West Island where most of our target market is located.

2417   Programming and talent on TSN Radio is first rate but when the signal is not clear it gives the station and Dagwoods a second-rate feel as we fight for market share with our local competitors.

2418   As a listener there is nothing more frustrating than driving home in the winter at the height of the hockey season, listening and taking in vital information on the Pierre McGuire show -- which is brought to you by Dagwoods -- and at 5:30 losing the signal once I drive into Baie D'Urfe where I live. TSN Radio tells me it's because it's dark out and the signal changes at sundown.

2419   I invest a good portion of my advertising budget sponsoring this show and I can't get it in my neighbourhood past 5:30 or at sundown.

2420   In the afternoon when I visit my downtown locations, the signal is weak in the core as well as to the point where I have to change the station and hear my competitors' commercials coming in crystal clear on the major stations.

2421   As an old-timer hockey player in Beaconsfield and because I have been a long time advertiser on the team, the guys in the league turn to me for answers to the same question, "What's wrong with 990's signal?" These guys are 35-plus and represent our target market and tell me they switch stations at night because they can't get it clearly.

2422   In the past few weeks the question has been asked a lot more often since TSN has had the Habs broadcast.

2423   Now, to the gentleman that stated earlier that the station comes in clearly at night, I invite him to come to Beaconsfield Hockey Arena on Tuesday nights and sit and talk with the boys and ask them the same question because they will find out that there is a problem there.

2424   As an advertiser and member of the listening community, since day one I have witnessed the talent and programming improve every year. You can feel the pride in the listeners' voice when they speak of TSN Radio, the improved local talent and the knowledgeable guests that they have on the station and now of course the fact that they are the home of the Habs.

2425   The people at TSN Radio have worked hard to build their station into a top sports station.

2426   It's time to reward them and our loyal listeners and advertiser with a proper signal.

2427   Thank you.

2428   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir.

2429   THE SECRETARY: Thank you. I would now invite the Westmount Moving & Warehousing to begin.


2430   MR. GAGNON: That was good, Spiro. I'm quite nervous now.

2431   My name is Joseph Gagnon. I am the President of Westmount Moving & Warehousing in Montreal; Ottawa and Waterloo, Ontario.

2432   I have got points here so I won't be reading.

2433   Basically, what my message here is that I myself have been a listener of the Team for 10 years or for TSN 990 for 10 years and an advertiser for the last five.

2434   I think 10 years ago when it was Team 990 when they first launched the station I think I admit it was a cult. They had a cult following. It was a very -- I would say it was a boutique, you know, type station.

2435   Fast-forward 10 years, when you look at the talent they have, the consistency with the broadcasts whether it be the morning or the afternoon, it's no longer the case. It really has become a mainstream station appealing to mainstream Montrealers, French and English.

2436   I would say that personally, I mean from colleagues and people, you know, my business colleagues and so on and so forth, the afternoon show with Mitch is probably the best. And I listen to a lot of talk radio both at CJAD and Team. But I would say that Mitch Melnick's show in the afternoon is probably the best talk radio show in Montreal.

2437   With the Canadians broadcasts being awarded to TSN 990 I think it has made it all the more important to reach all Montrealers. There is a responsibility to broadcast the most storied franchise -- sports franchise in all of sports and I think that the TSN 990 Team is up to it but are somewhat handicapped.

2438   I, myself, am a resident of southwest -- of the Island in the Chateauguay, Ville Léry area where -- and was raised in the Chateaugay Valley where the signal is spotty at best at certain times of the day.

2439   The Chateaugay Valley, all southwest of Montreal, is very, very English population and it's simply not an option. If you can't hear the broadcast properly you are just going to tune out, as simple as that. It's very annoying so you just tune out because it's not an option.

2440   Obviously, the signal is low especially in the evenings when the games are being broadcast. I also would challenge anyone to say that the signal is good because I am a regular listener and often will, you know, kind of forcibly tuned out if I am driving in that area.

2441   As an advertiser, the value of the station for me is a direct link as how many listeners can they reach?

2442   There is a direct link between you know if one station or I advertise on five different stations. And if I can reach more people at one station than at another, well, the value of that station is a little bit greater on that one.

2443   I feel that the value at TSN becomes somewhat limited simply -- especially when you have got some of your primetime programming at the lower frequency where you can't actually understand what they are saying. That's a real concern for me as an advertiser.

2444   One thing I will say at TSN 990 is the listeners are extremely loyal so there is some value there. But imagine if we actually were able to attract more listeners at the key parts of the day? What value that would bring to me as an advertiser. The impact would be significant.

2445   When someone calls Westmount Moving & Warehousing, if they heard us on the TSN -- I keep on saying the Team -- I apologize. It's new -- on TSN, they are going to book the move with us because Mitch said, "Book the move with Westmount. They are that good". That for me is extremely impactful.

2446   My partner, a former President of the Montreal Alouettes, once said -- and he is now a senator -- once said, "Why would I broadcast the Alouettes on TSN 990 when basically the station doesn't reach all the city?"

2447   It doesn't reach downtown. It doesn't reach the West Island, some of its main areas including its own home.

2448   I think that's -- although it's a self-serving statement, it still is impactful in the sense that decisions are being made based on the fact that the signal is weak in very, very key areas of the Island.

2449   Thank you.

2450   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2451   We will now hear the presentation of OMD Montreal. Please introduce yourself and you have five minutes.


2452   MR. CHIASSON: Good morning, Mr. Chair. Good morning, Commissioners.

2453   My name is Mike Chiasson and I am currently the General Manager of OMD Montreal.

2454   I have been working in the Montreal advertising business for over 25 years now, serving a wide variety of local, national and international clients.

2455   I am also a self-proclaimed sports junkie and an avid listener of TSN 990 and have been a listener of The Team since its inception day one.

2456   Part of my daytime job is to counsel and recommend media choices for all of my clients. When that choice turns to radio, my job as a marketer is to recommend the best possible buy for my client, that being the mix of the appropriate target audience along with many other factors; tuning levels, the cost, the efficiency of those costs, et cetera.

2457   Most radio stations, as most media choices, tend to skew to a more female demographic. Why? Well there are many reasons, but if you ask my wife she will tell you that it is because men have a really short attention span except when it comes to sports.

2458   So when I am faced with a client whose brand skews towards a male target, the choice of what to recommend is always a bit more of a challenge. I have supported the Team and TSN 990 right from its very inception.

2459   I know that some of my clients were their first national announcers. I saw them as a great way to reach the all-elusive upscale male demographic, the ones that don't normally fill out the surveys and now have PPMs on them. But you just know they are listening. That's what I hear from my friends who are all in that target group.

2460   However, I have never been able to use them to their full potential as their audience delivery has always been affected by their signal strength. Yes, all AM stations are affected by their low signal in the metropolitan areas. We all know that.

2461   High-rise buildings affect the signal but even more at night when the signal all but disappears in most areas of the city. Not great when weekday sporting events such as baseball, soccer and now hockey are all played after sundown. I can't recall how many times I personally have been driving home and been totally frustrated by a sporadic signal in and out.

2462   A stronger signal will benefit all clients' advertising opportunities in this market.

2463   Now, speaking on a more personal note, I grew up listening to the Montreal Expos on CFCF, and I believe you mentioned yesterday Ted Tevan -- normally on a small transistor radio and rarely with a good signal. I was probably always in trouble and that's why.

2464   Anyway, as I got older I would frequently listen to ball games first on CFCF and then CIQC and then after a year of nobody willing to put up the cash to actually keep the Expos on the air the Team came on board and we got a few years out of them.

2465   You would have thought that with all the technological advances that I have seen since first listening to the Expos back in 1969, or the Habs for many years on CJAD, that getting a clear signal for your home team would have gotten easier. Well, it definitely hasn't.

2466   Well, the Expos are long gone, but we still have the most storied franchise in hockey history and the anglophone population of Montreal should not be deprived of hearing who scored the goal against Reimer and the lousy Leafs or those oh, so nasty Bruins.

2467   So, on a personal request, I implore you to approve the TSN Radio 990 request for a frequency change so that the next generation of listeners will be able to listen to a clear description of their favourite sport, whichever sport that may be.

2468   Thank you for your time.

2469   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your personal request. We will be sending a copy of the transcripts to your wife.

--- Laughter

2470   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Lamarre, des questions?

2471   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: I like his wife.

2472   Good morning.

2473   Mr. Brookman, let's start with you.

--- Technical difficulties

2474   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Désolée, Madame.

2475   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Mr. Brookman, let's start with you.

2476   You do car shuttling from activities to another. I take it that you are the chauffeur for a number of agitated youngsters in your car.

2477   MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2478   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: And obviously when you are driving -- and that's what I tell people when I am driving -- you have the control of the dial. So you listen to 990.

2479   But are you aware whether or not those youngsters also listen to the AM band when you are not around?

2480   MR. BROOKMAN: I am aware that they may not.


2482   Also, when you are talking about travelling to the West Island, it's been you experience that if you do so during the day you don't have the same issues as if you do so at night, as far as the signal reception is concerned?

2483   MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I live in Pointe-Claire which is on the West Island. Even -- forget travelling even in my own home. I have given up trying to find -- trying to listen to AM 990 on the radio.

2484   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: So you listen to it on internet when you are at home?

2485   MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2486   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Okay. Well, thank you for those comments.

2487   Now, for the advertisers I have a question for the three of you. I will take for granted that you are all very smart businessmen and so are everybody else that works at Bell. The fact that the businesses that when --

2488   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Attendez une minute, Madame Lamarre, s'il vous plaît. On a un problème avec votre...

--- Technical difficulties

2489   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : C'est bon? Est-ce que ça marche? Oui, ça fonctionne. Merci.

2490   To continue on, usually in business when you are dealing with good business people on both sides, each side gets basically what they are paying for.

2491   So I am assuming that right now you are paying advertising dollars or your clients are, for the signal as it exists. Now, if the Team or TSN signal improves, can't you just see the rates go up and doesn't that worry you?

2492   MR. GAGNON: Oh, okay.

2493   There is no -- I have no problem paying more money to get more business because every time that someone calls me and books Westmount Moving, I am going to make a certain margin.

2494   So as long as I can myself provide sort of a justified business case, I have no problem. I advertise on other stations where I am paying more but I'm getting more calls. I'm glad to do so.

2495   So I would gladly pay more if I was getting better results.

2496   MR. CHIASSON: I will add to that.

2497   I believe I spoke about efficiencies. While the pure costs would go up, the efficiency would remain the same.

2498   So the efficiency is what I am looking for in the buy, but it also allows me to reach more of my target audience, a target audience that is extremely hard to reach here in this Montreal market.

2499   MR. KRALLIS: Our investment, our advertising dollars is considered an investment. If we can reach more people, then we are happy to invest more money in it.

2500   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: I just thought I would point it out.

2501   Mr. Krallis -- did I say that right -- just out of curiousity, where was your first location of Dagwoods Sandwiches?

2502   MR. KRALLIS: On St. John's in Dollard-des-Ormeaux, corner of Roger-Pilon.

2503   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Okay. And Dagwood isn't he the Popeye character?

2504   MR. KRALLIS: It's a character from Blondie.

2505   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Blondie, okay, okay.

2506   MR. KRALLIS: But we are not associated with that at all. It's just a name that I chose.

2507   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: You can see I'm not a sandwich expert.

2508   MR. KRALLIS: Well, where do you live? I can tell you a closer location and you can come and try our sandwiches. You can go on

2509   THE CHAIRPERSON: Definitely off scope.

--- Laughter

2510   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: I'm sure you have a website I can consult.

2511   MR. KRALLIS: Yes,

--- Laughter

2512   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Thank you very much.

2513   I don't have any more questions.

2514   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen.

2515   And to quote my wife, you get what you pay for, but that's a whole different issue as well on the advertising.

2516   Thank you very much.

2517   On prend une pause, Madame Roy?

2518   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui.

2519   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui?

2520   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui. Merci, et ceci complète la liste des intervenants pour Phase III.

2521   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci. Dix minutes?

2522   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Quinze.

2523   LE PRÉSIDENT : Quinze. You're the boss. Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 1019

--- Upon resuming at 1051

2524   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their applicants.

2525   Applicants appear in reverse order.

2526   We will begin with MetroMedia CMR Broadcasting Inc. Please re-introduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

2527   Thank you.


2528   M. MAYRAND : Merci. Alors, pour les fins du dossier, je suis Yves Mayrand, vice-président, en fait, à l'entreprise. Et à ma droite, Richard Lachance, premier vice-président radio.

2529   Monsieur le Président, Madame et monsieur les conseillers. Nous désirons faire quelques observations finales en réplique aux commentaires de Bell Media et Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy Media à l'égard de la demande de Diffusion Métromédia , une filiale de Cogeco.

2530   Ces deux demandeurs dans la présente instance soutiennent que le projet de Cogeco d'exploiter une station de radio commerciale de langue anglaise dédiée à la circulation dans le marché de Montréal ne permet pas une utilisation optimale de la fréquence 940 kHz qu'elle souhaite utiliser.

2531   Je tiens d'abord à rappeler qu'il y a plus de 2 millions de personnes qui voyagent, soir et matin, sur le réseau routier de la grande région de Montréal.

2532   Le sondage réalisé par Substance Stratégies en septembre auprès de 841 automobilistes de langue anglaise de la grande région de Montréal démontre clairement le besoin et le grand intérêt pour un tel service dans le marché de langue anglaise.

2533   De plus, l'expérience de CKAC qui exploite cette formule dans le marché de langue française à Montréal depuis le 6 septembre est aussi probante à cet égard comme nous avons eu l'occasion d'en témoigner hier.

2534   CKAC, je le rappelle, rejoint 441 000 auditeurs à chaque semaine, dont près de 100 000 se trouvent à l'extérieur du grand Montréal. À chaque jour, CKAC reçoit de 400 à 500 appels d'auditeurs qui lui transmettent de l'information sur les problèmes de circulation.

2535   Hier, Bell Media s'est longuement attardé à démontrer à quel point le signal de sa station CKGM, qui diffuse à la fréquence 990 kHz, est mauvais en plusieurs endroits, particulièrement dans l'ouest de l'île et de la périphérie, tôt le matin et en fin d'après-midi dans l'émission du retour à la maison ainsi que le soir lors de la diffusion de reportages sportifs. Je vous réfère au paragraphe 9 de leur présentation orale qui est éloquent à cet égard.

2536   Bell a même fait entendre des enregistrements audio de la station captés à Vaudreuil pour démontrer l'ampleur du problème. CKGM perd 29% de son auditoire potentiel à la tombée du jour selon Bell Media.

2537   Et quelle est la solution que propose Bell Media? Évidemment lui attribuer la fréquence 690 kHz - c'est l'objet de sa demande - mais, en plus, Bell suggère au Conseil d'allouer la fréquence 990 kHz ainsi libérée à Cogeco pour sa station anglaise de radio circulation.

2538   D'où vient cette insistance à nous refiler le canard boiteux alors que Bell demande le 690 kHz et que nous demandons le 940 kHz?

2539   Et compte tenu de la mauvaise qualité du signal à la fréquence 990, quels sont les arguments avancés par Bell pour justifier une telle proposition?

2540   Premièrement, l'écoute des stations de circulation est, selon Bell, concentrée dans les heures de clarté et deuxièmement, les auditeurs d'une station de circulation l'écoutent sur leurs radios d'auto qui offrent une meilleure réception que les radios de table.

2541   Les explications de Bell ne tiennent tout simplement pas du tout la route. Des problèmes de circulation, il y a en à toute heure du jour et de la soirée. Mais il y en a particulièrement aux heures de pointe, tôt le matin et en fin d'après-midi, soit avant et après le coucher du soleil durant les mois de novembre à mars.

2542   Or, le patron de nuit du 990 kHz ne dessert pas adéquatement l'ouest du territoire selon Bell.

2543   Maintenant, la deuxième affirmation de Bell Media selon laquelle la réception du signal du 990 kHz serait meilleure sur les radios d'auto, c'est, c'après nous tout à fait faux.

2544   Il est vrai que les récepteurs de radio d'auto sont généralement de meilleure qualité que les radios de table.

2545   Mais la problématique de la perte de couverture sur le patron de nuit est occasionnée par l'interférence provenant de canaux éloignés diffusant à la même fréquence.

2546   Donc, si la réception du signal local est meilleure sur les radios d'auto que les radios de table, celle des signaux éloignés qui créent l'interférence l'est également, ce qui fait en sorte que le signal du 990 kHz est tout aussi mauvais et déficient sur les radios d'auto qu'à la maison.

2547   En somme, pour... je dirais, au risque de reprendre un dicton bien connu, ce qui est bon pour minou est aussi bon pour pitou. Et à l'inverse, ce qui n'est pas bon pour minou, n'est pas bon non plus pour pitou!

2548   La solution proposée par Bell ne répond absolument pas aux besoins de rayonnement de la radio de circulation de langue anglaise que Cogeco désire exploiter dans les plus brefs délais pour répondre à l'urgence de la situation que nous avons décrite dans notre demande.

2549   Un autre point. Bell demande dans son intervention écrite l'imposition d'une condition de licence afin d'interdire la vente et la sollicitation de publicité locale si le Conseil accorde une licence à Cogeco pour exploiter une station de radio de circulation de langue anglaise à Montréal.

2550   La demande de Bell ne repose évidemment sur aucun fondement sérieux. Les revenus de vente projetés de la nouvelle station de radio de circulation de langue anglaise sont extrêmement modestes. En fait, elles représentent environ deux dix-millièmes de pour cent des revenus consolidés annuels de BCE qui sont de l'ordre de 20 milliards de dollars.

2551   De plus, nos recettes projetées proviennent majoritairement de nouvelles sources et l'impact anticipé sur les revenus actuels des autres stations du marché sera marginal et ne justifie aucunement l'imposition d'une telle condition restrictive et carrément discriminatoire.

2552   Richard?

2553   M. LACHANCE : Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy Media remet en question la pertinence d'exploiter des stations de radio de circulation à Montréal.

2554   Pourtant, dans son intervention déposée le 20 juin dernier, ce groupe déplorait à tort qu'il n'y ait pas eu d'appels d'offres concurrentiels du ministère des Transports du Québec parce qu'il aurait été intéressé à présenter une proposition concurrentielle à celle de Cogeco.

2555   Dès lors, on voit mal aujourd'hui comment Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy Media peut critiquer et remettre en question une formule de radio dédiée à la circulation qu'elle aurait elle-même souhaité exploiter.

2556   Enfin Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy Media a cherché à déprécier le travail de notre station 98,5 et de ses artisans, dont nous sommes très fiers, en laissant entendre que la station ne remplissait pas adéquatement son rôle d'informer lors de certains événements.

2557   L'exemple évoqué, celui de la couverture de la tempête Irène, était plutôt mal choisi compte tenu de la couverture effectuée par les reporters de Cogeco Nouvelles, y compris ses collaborateurs à New York Richard Châteauvert et Esther Bégin qui demeurent à Manhattan et qui étaient sur place au cours de ce weekend et qui sont intervenus en ondes.

2558   Le demandeur a aussi laissé entendre que Cogeco ne remplissait pas tous les engagements pris lors de l'acquisition des stations de Corus au Québec.

2559   Rien n'est plus faux et Cogeco tient à réaffirmer qu'elle respecte en tous points les conditions liées à ses licences et les engagements qu'elle a pris au moment du processus d'approbation du transfert de contrôle. Et j'ajouterais à ceci que nous faisons encore plus que ce que nous avons déposé lors de ces demandes au Conseil.

2560   En conclusion, nous avons été les premiers à trouver une utilité aux fréquences de classe A du marché de Montréal, après 18 mois d'indifférence générale. Nous n'en demandons plus qu'une seule. Et cette fréquence, le 940 kHz est la fréquence qui permettra de rejoindre l'ensemble de la population anglophone de la grande région métropolitaine de Montréal, particulièrement dans l'ouest de l'île et de son prolongement le long de la Transcanadienne et de l'autoroute 20.

2561   Il s'agit, d'après nous, d'un service public essentiel, compte tenu de l'énormité des problèmes de circulation qui affligent la grande région de Montréal, et nous avons le devoir de faire en sorte que nos concitoyens de langue anglaise puissent bénéficier d'un service tout à fait comparable à celui qui est déjà disponible aux francophones de la même région.

2562   L'application de la loi sur la langue officielle et de la Politique canadienne de radiodiffusion combinée à la très grande pertinence du projet et à son caractère urgent justifie pleinement l'utilisation proposée du 940 pour Trafic Radio.

2563   Merci.

2564   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Conseillère Lamarre?

2565   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : Vous avez été très clair, je n'ai pas de question.

2566   Merci.

2567   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci.

2568   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2569   We will now proceed with Dufferin Communications Inc.


2570   MS LAURIGNANO: Hello again. My name is still Carmela Laurignano. I am Vice President of Evanov Communications Inc., and with me is Andrée Wylie, with Blakes LLP.

2571   After hearing some of the applicants and reading some of the opposing interventions, we offer the following short summary.

2572   Some of the applicants, and one of the intervenors, are attempting to characterize ours as a narrow service that should be relegated to a small frequency. In other words, they are equating a niche market with a geographical area.

2573   Yes, Radio Fierté is a niche, but it will serve a different market. Niche in this case is interchangeable with a different market, that is wide, it is not narrow, and it will offer service reaching an entire community. This service should be spread out, and it is especially important for those who live outside of the cultural hub.

2574   The Broadcasting Act requires the enhancement of the diversity of Canadian markets reached by broadcast. Our aim as broadcasters is to reach unserved markets. Approval of our application ensures that these two goals are met here in Montreal.

2575   We offer optimal use of the 690 frequency, at low implementation cost. We will have little or no impact, and the least impact of all the applicants looking for a new service.

2576   Our full program schedule, all 126 hours of programming, will be local.

2577   We are the only applicant for the 690 that offers over and above CCD substantial contributions.

2578   We will be an experienced, independent broadcaster, who will add a new format and a new editorial voice.

2579   We have a track record of being able to enter the most competitive markets in the country, and not only survive but thrive.

2580   Our business plan is sound, solid, realistic, and we can assure you that we will be here for the long run.

2581   We would like to thank all of the appearing intervenors and non-appearing intervenors who support our application, and our dedicated staff at PROUD-FM, who generously agreed to share with you in the presentation and impart some of their experience.

2582   We salute our fellow applicants, with all of whom we share a passion for radio and for this vibrant, unique, diverse city.

2583   Lastly, we thank you, Commissioners and Commission Staff, who were called to implement this process in such a short procedural window. We appreciate your efforts.

2584   Thank you very much.

2585   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your comments, and for the flowers.

2586   Madam Lamarre...


2588   I always find that doing a hearing is like preparing a term paper, you don't get the details until the end, and I have a few loose ends to tie up here.

2589   During our discussion you said that half of the programming would be music, and that you would get music production, also, from new artists from the community you are trying to serve.

2590   I just want to point out to you that, as a French station, you will also have the obligation to broadcast 65 percent French music. I just want to make sure that you are fully aware of that.

2591   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, Commissioner. Yes, we are aware of that, and we intend to fulfil that to at least the minimum, if not exceed it, because, again, it is diversity that we are counting on, and the addition of music that can't be heard anywhere else is very important for us, and we will definitely abide by that. Thank you.

2592   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Now, to close the loop on frequencies, I went through the transcription of what we discussed yesterday, and you are applying for 690. You said that you would take 940, if that is what the Commission chose to do.

2593   I left out one option that may be available. If we chose to license a frequency change for CTV, 990 would become available for another broadcaster.

2594   Would 990 be acceptable for Dufferin?

2595   MS LAURIGNANO: I can't say outright because we have not studied it. We have not looked at it. We would have to consult with our engineer.

2596   However, I would say that if it is inadequate for their use, it probably would be inadequate for ours, just off the bat.

2597   What we are doing is, we want to have the service available widespread and, in our view, it's a service that is not available; and it would be more effectively used, that frequency, to continue to serve formats that are in the market already, which have duplicated services in some form or another. There is no lack of news and talk and sports and information, be it on radio or, also, television, which is also part of our industry.

2598   I mean, goodness, I know that you can get it on apps and all kinds of things. You can get sports results and news updates, and even traffic now, on apps. But for this market there exists nothing.

2599   So it's very important for us, for all the reasons that we have said, including the fact of being able to reach, as reliably as possible, as many people as possible, because it is a spread-out community, it does not live in a ghetto or a specific geographical area.

2600   The cultural hub is there because the cultural communities establish those institutions and those landmarks and those things in a particular area, which actually is evidence that there is a flourishing community, but they are not bound by the city limits.

2601   So our preference would be, again, to provide as wide a service as possible, the broadest possible.

2602   To answer your question specifically, we would have to study it. I am not sure how it would impact our business plan, and it may impact it to the point where we would abandon the project, if it didn't meet the criteria that we know we need, and from our experience of being limited on a small signal already.

2603   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Okay. Point taken. Thank you.

2604   THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know, on the 990 question that my colleague asked, is that a definite no, or is it a maybe, or we will think about it?

2605   MS LAURIGNANO: I think it's a maybe, it's a possibility, in terms of us exploring the possibility for its use.

2606   I am not sure if it's maximized where it is right now, if it could be located somewhere else --

2607   THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you sleep on it and get back to us tomorrow in writing, or would you need more time?

2608   MS LAURIGNANO: I think, if we can reach our engineering consultant, I could get a preliminary, but I am not sure that I could get that information back, because if it requires, for example, going out and finding new land to relocate the transmitter -- I don't know.

2609   But, in any case, our concern would be that there would be costs associated with it, where the 690 is a ready-made, technical dream for us --

2610   THE CHAIRPERSON: It's everybody's dream.

2611   MS LAURIGNANO: -- because we have Astral's approval --

2612   THE CHAIRPERSON: You are not alone.

2613   MS LAURIGNANO: -- and we can collocate on their tower, and we are maximizing that frequency there. So it's perfect for us.

2614   THE CHAIRPERSON: I opened the door for you. If you want to get back to us in a week's time, feel free.

2615   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, I appreciate it. That or sooner, for sure. I can do that.

2616   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Denton, do you have questions?

2617   COMMISSIONER DENTON: No, thank you.

2618   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Lamarre?

2619   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: No, thank you.

2620   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

2621   MS LAURIGNANO: If I might add, just as a matter of clean-up, we were asked for some undertakings. I want to confirm that we have filed the news commitment --

2622   THE CHAIRPERSON: Great.

2623   Madam Lehoux?

2624   MS LAURIGNANO: Oh, I'm sorry, I jumped the gun.

2625   MS LEHOUX: Yes, you did provide the undertaking concerning the breakdown of the spoken word; however, we only have it for Monday to Friday, and we would need it also for Saturday and Sunday.

2626   MS LAURIGNANO: Okay. We understood that you wanted it for just Monday to Friday; however, we can do that, no problem.

2627   MS LEHOUX: Could you do that by the end of the day today?

2628   MS LAURIGNANO: We could do it by the end of today, yes.


2629   MS LEHOUX: That's it.

2630   MS LAURIGNANO: And you received the clarification, I believe, on the ownership? We clarified that, as well?

2631   MS LEHOUX: Yes, that's fine.

2632   MS LAURIGNANO: And the CCD update has been sent to you, I think.

2633   MS LEHOUX: In terms of answering Mr. Pentefountas' question, could you do so by Monday?

2634   MS LAURIGNANO: Yes.


2635   MS LEHOUX: Thank you.

2636   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Have a safe trip back.

2637   Madam Secretary...

2638   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

2639   We will now proceed with 7954689 Canada Inc.

--- Pause

2640   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself and you have 15 minutes. Thank you.


2641   M. TÉTREAULT : Alors, à ma gauche, Paul Tietolman, Rajiv Pancholy, moi-même Nicolas Tétreault de 7954689 Canada inc., madame Bloom et madame Travers de Raymond, Chabot, Grant Thornton et Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton consulting.

2642   Alors, ce qu'on aimerait amener ce matin comme point qui est très important, c'est que nous avons un prêt de 21 millions de dollars qui est déjà en place et qui est amplement suffisant - et il faut que vous compreniez - c'est amplement suffisant pour couvrir à toute éventualité de revenu, de baisse de revenu. On a des projections jusqu'à 20 pour cent de baisse de revenus et il n'y a absolument aucun problème.

2643   Même avec 20 pour cent de baisse anticipée de revenus, on a amplement d'argent de disponible en liquidité pour couvrir à toute éventualité.

2644   Il n'est pas dans notre intérêt, ni à Paul Tietolman, ni à Rajiv Pancholy et ni à moi-même de perdre de l'argent. Nous sommes ici pour que le projet réussisse.

2645   Et si vous avez des questions sur le financement, on les a répondues, on vous a soumis les documents et on croit pas du tout que nos projections soient si optimistes.

2646   Il est évident que s'il n'y a plus de joueur sur le AM, c'est très facile de dire qu'il y a moins de revenus qu'auparavant sur le AM. C'est l'évidence même.

2647   Mais si on ramène la compétition sur le AM, c'est certain qu'on va accroître des revenus sur le AM.

2648   Quand j'étais à Radio-Canada en 2000, on avait environ 130 millions de revenus de publicité disponibles à l'époque avec une équipe de vente de peut-être 20 vendeurs sur la route. Et c'était tout à fait dans la norme. On pouvait certainement faire mieux.

2649   Ce que je peux vous dire, c'est que c'est dans... une des choses importantes, c'est que de limiter nos sources de revenus aux revenus existants dans la radio, c'est une grave erreur.

2650   On peut facilement aller chercher un pourcentage des revenus de ce qui se fait dans la presse écrite, sur internet, et à la télévision. D'assumer le contraire serait une erreur complète.

2651   Moi j'ai plus de... j'ai juste un fait divers. J'étais personnellement propriétaire du deuxième plus grand bar gays et lesbiennes au Canada : le Drugstore, c'est sur internet, pendant de nombreuses années.

2652   Et je crois que mentalement, logiquement, cérébralement, dites-le comme vous voulez, tous les adverbes, de penser que la communauté gay, lesbienne, elle est captive de certains artistes, de certaines nouvelles, qu'ils écoutent pas la même musique que monsieur et madame tout le monde, qu'ils écoutent pas les mêmes nouvelles que monsieur et madame tout le monde, est une prémisse, une prémisse complètement erronée et non fondée. Et que de vouloir circonscrire ça sur l'appartenance ou l'orientation sexuelle est une erreur fondamentale dans la logique même des choses.

2653   Moi, je n'ai plus de points.

2654   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup. C'est bien noté.

2655   Nous avons exploré... ma collègue a exploré avec Dufferin d'autres possibilités. Et ça, ça doit pas vous donner une idée de la nature de notre pensée ou une direction comme telle. Mais on veut explorer toutes les possibilités possibles pour mieux nous aider à décider, en temps et lieux.

2656   La question du 990 a été soulevée. Hier, on vous a posé la question assez directement sur la possibilité, est-ce que c'est votre projet? Est-ce que vous avez besoin des deux fréquences of clear channel ou est-ce qu'il y a une possibilité de vivre avec une de ces deux-là?

2657   Vous avez dit que c'est les deux clears channels ou rien. Votre modèle économique ne fonctionne pas avec une.

2658   Si on se lance l'idée de 990, c'est pas un clear channel, quel sera le problème avec 990 pour vous?

2659   MR. PANCHOLY: Mr. President, allow me to answer the question in maybe three parts.

2660   THE CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

2661   MR. PANCHOLY: Number one, we have limitations in terms of the technical solution that may or may not work on a site. We have not done that. So that is a big unknown at this point in time.

2662   But fundamentally, I would like to reinforce what I said yesterday that our business plan was based on the coverage that we could get from the two clear channel frequencies.

2663   And given all the discussion and debate that has taken place in this forum about the viability of a business, I would submit to you, sir, that you know it is still the same answer I gave you yesterday.

2664   But I would like to add something to that. I have spent most of my life here on the telecommunications side of things but submitting to the same authority as CRTC.

2665   And over the years there has been a very clear pattern that has been established with the CRTC which is to encourage competition and to encourage people like us spectrum which in this case are the two clear channel frequencies, have been given and allocated to the new start-ups. This was done in the late nineties where spectrum was given on a reserved basis to two companies, Fido and ClearNet, but happened again more recently when the CRTC decided and Industry Canada decided that more competition was needed.

2666   The question I pose to you, sir, as follows: If those clear channel frequencies are reserved for the big incumbents and they say they cannot make a business out of the existing frequencies what chance, sir, do we as entrepreneurs have to enter a market with again some big, well-entrenched mature brands, strong balance sheets and expect to be successful?

2667   That's the question for the Commission I leave you with.

2668   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good enough, Madam Lamarre?

2669   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Let me insist -- and don't see the insistence, like the Chairman said, any final thoughts. We are just exploring all the possibilities here.

2670   If the Commission so decided that indeed you should be awarded a licence but only one licence, would you accept it?

2671   MR. PANCHOLY: Given our current understanding, ma'am, probably not.

2672   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Is that a yes or a no?

2673   MR. PANCHOLY: The answer is no, ma'am.

2674   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: That's a "no"?

2675   MR. PANCHOLY: Yes.

2676   COMMISSIONER LAMARRE: Okay. Thank you.

2677   THE CHAIRPERSON: I won't insist for an answer today. We gave the Evanov Group till Monday. I'm going to give you till Monday.

2678   MR. PANCHOLY: Gracious of you, sir. Thank you.

2679   THE CHAIRPERSON: Think about it.

2680   D'autres choses, Madame Lamarre? Monsieur Denton?


2682   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership.

--- Pause

2683   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself and you have 10 minutes for your presentation.


2684   MR. GORDON: Thank you.

2685   Mr. Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff, I am Chris Gordon.

2686   With me on my panel to my right, Wayne Bews and Jim Fealy. To my left, Mirko Bibic, Lenore Gibson and Dave Simon.

2687   At the outset, we would like to thank the numerous loyal TSN Radio and Montreal listeners who wrote letters to the Commission in support of our application, as well as our panel of appearing intervenors that spoke so passionately about the station earlier today.

2688   As we said yesterday, this application, first and foremost, is about improving the service TSN Radio Montreal provides to its listeners.

2689   Providing a better service for our listeners begins a virtuous circle. It helps to increase the audience to the station, making advertising on the station that much more valuable, which will in turn grow the station's revenues, allowing us to reinvest in local programming for our listeners' benefit.

2690   Bell Media has operated CKGM as a sports talk station for more than a decade. We have never turned a profit and have endured millions of dollars in losses.

2691   We began investigating potential ways to improve the station's signal quality a year and half ago, first through discussions with Corus, and then Cogeco, after they acquired Corus' Quebec radio operations. Those attempts were unsuccessful. Then in September 2010, we too were in the process of being acquired, and thus "in limbo" for a number of months.

2692   However, under BCE's ownership, there has been a commitment to radio. This year alone, we have invested millions in our radio operations.

2693   There has also been a renewed focus on turning our Montreal AM station around and we have developed a three-pronged strategy to do it.

2694   The first two elements of this strategy were to acquire the English-language broadcast rights for the Montreal Canadiens and to rebrand as TSN Radio Montreal. However, even with these investments, the station remains in a loss position.

2695   Improving our signal quality is the third prong of our strategy necessary to bring the station to a break-even position.

2696   Unfortunately, without a better frequency, TSN Radio Montreal is not profitable, we will not be able to sustain revenue and audience gains associated with the acquisition of the Habs' rights, our local programming will suffer and ultimately it will be the Montreal listeners who are disadvantaged by this.

2697   Bell Media is committed to the listeners in this market. We are committed to Quebec.

2698   As we discussed yesterday, Bell Media is eager to expand its radio presence in this market and across the province, increasing the degree of competition.

2699   If frequencies become available, we will look to apply to use them for new, innovative services that add to the diversity of the marketplace. If acquisition opportunities present themselves, we intend to pursue them. However, we must put TSN Radio Montreal on stable footing as a necessary first step.

2700   After listening to the other applicants and the various interveners over the course of the last two days, it has reaffirmed to us that Bell Media's application to use the 690 frequency remains the best use of the available frequencies in the Montreal market as it will:

2701   (1) Stabilize a valuable intensely local radio service in TSN Radio Montreal positioning Bell Media for future growth in Quebec; (2) Free up existing frequency use by another player and, (3) make additional frequencies 600 and 940 available at a cost effective manner for new entrance; (4) for future licences.

2702   THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Bibic.

2703   MR. BIBIC: This thing doesn't like me. Excuse me, it's always this one. Okay. Thank you. I apologize for this little butch.

2704   I would like to add a couple of comments just based on what we've heard this morning. To reiterate but add to a point we made this morning in Phase II, and this is in response to or in respect of the Tietolman Applications.

2705   I just want to stress again that while the radio market in Montreal is declining, Tietolman sees it growing by 56 per cent over seven years. Now, that alone is a huge stretch. But then I think the business plan assumes that they will capture the entire market, thus essentially wiping out stalwart CJAD, TSN Radio and pretty much everyone else as I look at that business plan.

2706   Moving on to the signal quality issue, the panel asked Mr. Tietolman about this TSN Radio signal quality and he said something this morning in Phase II to the effect that the signal is clear as a bell and it's heard clear as a bell far and wide and the signal has been tested, something to that effect and I don't have the exact words here.

2707   Yet, when you just asked them about 990 right two or three minutes ago, they indicated they don't want the signal, which is, I guess, a contradiction in terms as far as I can see.

2708   And as far as the statements that the signal is clear as a bell and that it has been tested by Tietolman, I just wish to point out it's fairly obvious that those tests aren't on the record, we don't know who conducted them, if it was an engineer, when, if it was a day or it was at night, et cetera.

2709   The fact is that the signal does not extend to the West Island, that's the fundamental issue here. You've heard in opening statement yesterday the audio of the signal day versus night and you've heard today from our listeners and you've heard from our advertisers.

2710   If the signal coverage and the quality extended to the West Island in the evening and early morning periods in the winter months, we would not be here today.

2711   The next point is moving away from the others, but back to our own application. We do believe it has significant merit. We have shown a commitment over many years to Montreal. We have a devoted listenership in Montreal who want the better service.

2712   We don't have a listenership that we intend to cultivate in the future, but an actual sizeable listenership and a significant portion of them unfortunately are not well-served at all times of day. You've heard the figure yesterday, the 30 per cent.

2713   We just ask for an opportunity to step up to the next level with a better frequency because of our target market, a huge portion of which is on the West Island, and that's key.

2714   You know the content we have strikes a cord with the public, it's very local, we want to improve that content, you've heard Chris mention that.

2715   Now, the last point. We came forward with a proposal that provides the commission with a path forward to allow even more entry in Montreal cost effectively, we fully support that.

2716   I want to respond to monsieur Mayrand and COGECO. You know, our suggestion, our first choice is 690. That's clearly our first choice. We will take 940 if we cannot have 690. There is no devious plan designed to banish COGECO's traffic station to 990. If we have 690, it's up to the Commission to decide who gets 940. To us it's neither here and nor there if it's anyone of the other applicants, we don't have a preference, we -- you know, any applicant can get 940.

2717   All we were suggesting with respect to COGECO being at 990 is if the Commission wants to accommodate as much entry as possible, 990 can be a feasible frequency for a traffic station. That's the only point we were making. It's not that COGECO isn't entitled to make its best case for 940. So, I just want to make that clear.

2718   And 990 can be a perfectly valid signal, it depends on your target audience, where they are primarily located, it can work perfectly fine. It's just a problem for TSN Radio because of the West Island issue primarily.

2719   And so, the last point is on Ivanoff, I am not sure if it was fully understood, but when it was asked of them again probably 20, 15 minutes ago, would you take 990, there was an issue about the site costs.

2720   I want to reiterate again that any of the applicants Ivanoff or anyone else, if they get 990, we will make our site available and that allows for cost effective entry and we will negotiate reasonably, we will negotiate in a short period of time and we will submit ourselves to arbitration if there is any hiccup.

2721   Thank you.

2722   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Lamarre, est-ce que vous avez des questions?

2723   CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE : On a répondu à toutes mes questions. Merci.

2724   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, merci. Monsieur Denton?

2725   COMMISSIONER DENTON: It's fine.

2726   THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.

2727   THE SECRETARY: This concludes Phase IV and completes the agenda of this Public Hearing.

2728   LE PRÉSIDENT : Une dernière question.

2729   I just want to raise one last point. I opened up a door earlier in terms of allowing Ivanoff to take a week to think about it and then that was shortened to next Monday, but luckily half the people read me in, but I think in the interest of fairness we should offer the same opportunity and to Bell and COGECO.

2730   Je pense que vos positions sont plus claires, mais dans l'intérêt d'une équité...

2731   M. BIBIC : Procédurale?

2732   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, justement, je pense que ce serait juste et équitable de vous permettre également de soumettre d'autres possibilités, d'autres options, d'autres idées d'ici lundi. O.k.

2733   M. BIBIC : D'accord. Merci, monsieur le président.

2734   LE PRÉSIDENT : Est-ce que ça complète, madame Roy? Bien, merci beaucoup à vous tous. Ça a été deux journées agréables. On a mal dormi hier et je pense qu'on va mal dormir pour quelques jours encore. Ce n'est jamais facile et, moi, j'ai été impressionné par la qualité des interventions et des présentations.

2735   Alors, merci beaucoup et on apprécie énormément le travail que vous avez fait pour nous arriver avec les idées réfléchies. Merci encore.

2736   Bonne journée et bon retour pour ceux et celles qui retournent ailleurs.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1131


Johanne Morin

Karen Paré

Susan Villeneuve

Monique Mahoney

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