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Various broadcasting applications


Conference Centre

Outaouais Room

140 Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec

June 12, 2009


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission


Various broadcasting applications


Konrad von Finckenstein   Chairperson

Michel Arpin   Commissioner

Len Katz   Commissioner

Rita Cugini   Commissioner

Michel Morin   Commissioner


Sylvie Bouffard   Secretary

Lyne Cape   Hearing Manager

Peter McCallum   Legal Counsel

Jean-Sébastien Gagnon


Conference Centre

Outaouais Room

140 Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec

June 12, 2009

- iv -





Canadian Broadcasting Corporation   4 / 22

Astral Media Radio Inc.   15 / 96

Frank Torres (OBCI)   56 / 396

Radio de la communauté francophone d’Ottawa   96 / 652

Ottawa Media Inc.   164 / 1125



Radio de la communauté francophone d’Ottawa   172 / 1182

Frank Torres (OBCI)   174 / 1194

Astral Media Radio Inc.   189 / 1290

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation   192 / 1316

   Gatineau, Québec

--- Upon resuming on Friday, June 12, 2009 at 1003

1   THE CHAIRPERSON: Bonjour. Good morning.

2   This morning we are resuming the deliberations that began on March 31st. We will continue our reconsideration of the competitive applications to operate a new FM station in the Ottawa-Gatineau market.

3   Je vous présente les membres du comité d'audition : Michel Arpin, vice-président de la Radiodiffusion; Len Katz, vice-président des Télécommunications; Rita Cugini, conseillère régionale de l'Ontario; Michel Morin, conseiller national; et moi-même, Konrad von Finckenstein, président du CRTC. Je présiderai l'audience.

4   L'équipe du Conseil qui nous assiste se compose notamment de : Lyne Cape, gérante de l'audience et gestionnaire, Politiques et analyse de la radio; Peter McCallum, conseiller juridique principal, et Jean-Sébastien Gagnon, conseiller juridique; et Sylvie Bouffard, secrétaire de l'audience.

5   In the course of the public hearing that began on March 31st certain applicants and intervenors stated that 94.5 MHz frequency could be used in the Ottawa-Gatineau market. This frequency is second adjacent to Astral Media Radio CIMF-FM station operating on 94.9 MHz frequency.

6   Following the adjournment of the public hearing, we asked the Communications Research Centre to report on the feasibility of using this frequency. We also wrote to the CBC to seek clarification regarding the availability of the Camp Fortune transmission site.

7   Today we will focus our inquiries solely on whether the 94.5 MHz frequency is available for use, on what terms and the possible implication associated with its use. We will do so in light of the rules set by Industry Canada for the management of the radio spectrum.

8   We will follow the procedures outlined in the letter of organization and conduct that was sent to the parties.

9   Madame la Secrétaire, je vous passe la parole.

10   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président, et bonjour à tous.

11   Before beginning I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.

12   Tout d'abord, lorsque vous êtes dans la salle d'audience, je vous demanderais d'éteindre vos téléphones cellulaires et BlackBerrys et non pas seulement mettre en mode vibration, étant donné que ceux-ci causent de l'interférence dans les systèmes internes de communications utilisés par les interprètes. Nous comptons sur votre collaboration à cet égard durant toute la durée de l'audience.

13   Please note that Commission Members may ask questions in either English or French. You can obtain an interpretation receiver from the Commissionaire at the entrance.

14   Le service d'interprétation simultanée est disponible durant cette audience. L'interprétation anglaise se trouve au canal 7 et l'interprétation française au canal 8.

15   Interpretation services are available throughout the duration of the hearing. English interpretation is available on Channel 7 and French interpretation on Channel 8.

16   Pendant toute la durée de l'audience, vous pourrez consulter les documents qui font partie du dossier public pour cette audience dans la salle d'examen qui se trouve dans la Salle Papineau, située à l'extérieur de la salle d'audience à votre droite. Tel qu'indiqué dans l'ordre du jour, le numéro de téléphone de la salle d'examen est le 819-953-3168.

17   There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table to my right which will be posted daily on the Commission's website. If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.

18   Veuillez noter que Fiston Kalambay Mutombo nous a avisé qu'il ne comparaîtra pas à l'audience aujourd'hui. Il était l'article 5 à l'ordre du jour.

19   Now, Mr. Chairman, we will begin this morning with the first participant on the Agenda, Canadian broadcasting Corporation, Société Radio-Canada.

20   Appearing for CBC is Madam Kirshenblatt.

21   Please introduce your colleague.


22   MS KIRSHENBLATT: Good morning, Mr. Chairperson, Commissioners and Commission staff.

23   My name is Bev Kirshenblatt, I am the Senior Director of Regulatory Affairs at CBC/Radio-Canada, and joining me today is Martin Marcotte, CBC/Radio-Canada's Director of Transmission.

24   Last April, the Commission adjourned its public hearing in the Ottawa-Gatineau radio reconsideration proceeding. And as you know, Radio-Canada/CBC is not an applicant in this proceeding and did not appear at the hearing.

25   However, you advised us that during the course of this hearing some parties had discussed the possibility of using the 94.5 MHz frequency. You asked us to provide a report on the feasibility of using this frequency to serve the Ottawa-Gatineau market from our Camp Fortune transmission site. We filed our report April 20, 2009.

26   The Commission also asked us to make our chief technical expert, Mr. Marcotte, available at this hearing to respond to any questions that may arise from our report. We are here today and we would be pleased to respond to any questions that you may have.

27   Thank you.

28   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you for your appearance.

29   Especially Mr. Marcotte, I want to thank you for coming. Throughout this my organization everybody said Mr. Marcotte is the one who knows everything about the tower in Camp Fortune, if he is not there we can get to the gist of it. So thank you for appearing.

30   And please, in the previous hearing allegations were made, probably unreasonable, that CBC only answers the questions that are being posed. If in our ignorance we forget the pose a pertinent question, please feel free to educate us and saying that what you asked me is right, but the real issue is this and here is the answer, because we really would like to get the bottom of this.

31   My colleague, Mr. Katz, has a lot of questions for you, I just have one.

32   In your report in paragraph 13 you talk about the tower having an aperture available of 34 m, but it points away from Ottawa.

33   So I gather the implication is that in effect there is one space open but it points the wrong way and, frankly, if you want to go on that tower you have to use an existing antenna, there is no space for a new antenna.

34   Is that my correct interpretation from this?

35   MR. MARCOTTE: That's a correct interpretation, because at the 34 m aperture there are existing antennas at that height and the antennas at that height are on the -- that are pointing towards the Ottawa -- in other words, the antennas are pointing south.

36   Therefore, there is available aperture but it's on the north side of the tower, which would render an FM antenna in that aperture ineffective.

37   There could be a possibility to relocate some of those antennas, but it's still not the preferred technical option.

38   THE CHAIRPERSON: And on the south side, which is obviously the one we are interested in, there is no aperture available?

39   MR. MARCOTTE: That's correct. On the south face of the tower there is no available aperture.

40   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I will pass it over to my colleague, Len Katz.

41   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

42   Good morning and, again, thank you for appearing today.

43   I would also make the comment that the way we have structured this proceeding there is a Phase I and a Phase II and Phase II goes in reverse order. Now, you are not an applicant but you are here as the first person up today and so on Phase II you would be the last person and we certainly would appreciate you staying around in case there are any follow-up questions that come up as well through the day. So I would appreciate if you could stay around.

44   I have a couple of questions. The first one -- and we all know why we are here, it's because CBC operates the Camp Fortune transmission sites and is responsible for some of the shared assets on that site.

45   Obviously safety is a big issue as well and the question comes up with regard to if the CRTC does authorize someone to utilize 94.5 on that antenna structure what would the implications be on the Safety Code 6 I guess, and how would one deal with that?

46   MR. MARCOTTE: At the present time the Camp Fortune site is Safety Code 6 compliant at the public level.

47   If there is a new applicant that is authorized to operate from Camp Fortune, we require any new tenants on the tower to provide a report to us indicating what will happen with Safety Code 6 levels and, if we have any concerns, CBC would also require the applicant to undertake field strength measurements, actual measurements on the site after implementing their service to demonstrate again that the site will remain compliant.

48   In this particular case, because the site is compliant now and there are pretty good margins in terms of the availability of increased RF that we can accommodate on the site, I don't foresee that the parameters I have seen, certainly the ones that were used for testing of the 94.5 frequency, will cause any Safety Code 6 concerns.

49   COMMISSIONER KATZ: If there is a need to do something are there alternatives available to you, or to the applicant?

50   MR. MARCOTTE: Yes. Some of the alternatives would consist of what power level the station operates at, but certainly another common practice is to modify the antenna, particularly the spacing between dipoles to improve the vertical pattern, which is to get the RF level off the ground, because Safety Code 6 is really related with RF levels at ground level.

51   So it is quite common that you can modify the antenna to improve its performance.

52   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Now, as part of the follow-up of the hearing of March 31st, we actually asked NewCap whether they would be prepared to negotiate with a third party for the use of their antenna located on Camp Fortune in the event that such a party was authorized to use the frequency 94.5 to serve Gatineau market.

53   Their response -- and I don't know if you have it in front of you here -- was dated June 9th and it identified a couple of caveats to their ability to negotiate.

54   One of the things on here, and I will read it out to you, it says:

"We are tenants on the CBC site and therefore cannot give consideration or agree to such a request until the CBC has advised us that they would agree to and approve such a sublease if NewCap were to agree to it." (As read)

55   Can you comment on any concerns you might have and, if there are any, what they would be?

56   MR. MARCOTTE: Well, the CBC has no concerns in terms of accommodating additional stations on Camp Fortune. Provided the new applicant meets our normal conditions of our site sharing agreement we don't see any problem there.

57   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Okay. And there are conditions on the current lease to allow for a sublease with your approval?

58   MR. MARCOTTE: That's correct.

59   COMMISSIONER KATZ: So it would be a routine process for them to enter into negotiation?

60   MR. MARCOTTE: That's correct.


62   I want to take you to your letter that you kindly submitted to us dated April 20th and refer you to paragraph 15 I guess where you raised a concern regarding a precedent. I guess you called it a bad precedent in that paragraph.

63   If we assume for a moment that based on everything that's on the record there is a commercially viable opportunity at 94.5 and we are facing a very unique situation here with regard to a reconsideration of an application for a community Franco-Ontarian station being reconsidered here, how would you believe that a decision, should it be rendered by the CRTC for the second adjacent frequency, would result in it being a bad precedent?

64   MR. MARCOTTE: Well, as we have stated on the record for the proceeding we support Industry Canada's policy rules and procedures on second adjacent frequencies, but we do recognize the circumstances leading to this hearing and that we are dealing with an exception which the CRTC is in a unique circumstance in this case.

65   Our concern in terms of that precedent is a little bit more general in nature, in the sense that that policy is intended to ensure a high quality radio service of the Canadian radio broadcasting system and our concern is that that principle be maintained.

66   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Are you aware of other situations in Canada where a second adjacent frequency has been used in unique and exceptional circumstances?

67   MR. MARCOTTE: I'm not aware of any today, no.


69   Those are all my questions, Mr. Chairman.


71   Michel...?


73   I want to return back to the site and obviously there might be room on the tower through the antenna that NewCap owns, but is there enough space in the CBC building at Camp Fortune to implement new transmitting equipment?

74   MR. MARCOTTE: Yes, there is.

75   We own three separate buildings on the Camp Fortune site and one of our buildings has considerable available space in it.

76   So there will be no -- there is no problem accommodating additional equipment there.


78   Well, that was my question, because the other questions that I had thought of had been asked.

79   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

80   One final question.

81   My other colleagues don't have questions?

82   Is NewCap the only possibility -- antenna the only way that a signal could be delivered or are there others?

83   MR. MARCOTTE: We had discussions with another applicant regarding a CBC standby antenna and replacing that antenna. It's not the preferred option because that antenna is much lower on the tower and therefore would not give as good a performance as the NewCap antenna.

84   There can be other options as well. They were not studied simply because they become extremely expensive to implement.

85   THE CHAIRPERSON: And from you as an expert technician and living this stuff daily, would putting a second station on the NewCap antenna in any way interfere or cause -- have a negative effect on NewCap?

86   MR. MARCOTTE: No, it would not have an impact on NewCap.

87   What I don't have is the specific specifications of their antenna and combiner system, but as far as I know there should not be a negative impact on the NewCap system.

88   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

89   As my colleague Mr. Katz said, please stay around for the second round.

90   Okay, Madame la Secrétaire, let's proceed.

91   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, we need a two-minute technical break to set up a laptop for the next presentation.

92   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay, then let's take a five-minute break.

--- Upon recessing at 1019

--- Upon resuming at 1025

93   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...

94   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with the second participant, which is Astral Media Radio Inc., which is applying for a licence to operate an English-language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Ottawa and Gatineau.

95   Appearing for Astral is Jacques Parisien. Please introduce your colleagues, and you will then have 15 minutes for your presentation.


96   MR. PARISIEN: Good morning, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff. My name is Jacques Parisien, and I am President of Astral Media Radio.

97   With me today, on my right, is Charles Benoît, Executive Vice-President of Astral Media Radio.

98   To his right is Wally Lennox, Vice-President of Engineering of Astral Media Radio.

99   At the far right is Kerry Pelser, Engineer with D.E.M. Allen & Associates Ltd.

100   On my left is Rob Braide, Senior Consultant, Industry Relations and Contributions, Astral Media Radio.

101   To his left is Denis Bouchard, General Manager of Energie , Rock Détente and Virgin Radio in the Gatineau-Ottawa market.

102   On April 2nd, the Commission suspended the proceedings for this reconsideration process in order to obtain additional information respecting the potential use of 94.5 as a third available FM frequency in the Ottawa-Gatineau market.

103   Since that time the CBC has provided input respecting the availability of space at its Camp Fortune tower, and Industry Canada has provided its perspective with regard to the use of a second adjacent frequency.

104   The Commission also asked that applicants provide comments respecting the feasibility of 94.5.

105   Mr. Chair, in Phase IV of the previous suspended proceedings, Astral offered to undertake a full and complete study respecting the possible use of the 94.5 frequency, with the collaboration of Industry Canada, the CBC, and any applicant who wished to be involved.

106   Unfortunately, given the extremely tight deadlines involved in this proceeding, Astral was unable to provide as comprehensive a report as it originally envisaged. Nevertheless, on May 27th, Astral filed with the Commission, for the benefit of all parties, a preliminary technical report on the potential use of 94.5.

107   In this regard, I wish to note that, in the spirit of cooperation, Astral undertook the following measures.

108   We contacted the CBC and obtained approval for preliminary testing on the Camp Fortune tower.

109   We contacted Newcap and obtained its permission to test a shared antenna scenario on its antenna at Camp Fortune.

110   We retained the services of an engineering firm and paid for the drafting and filing of a technical brief with Industry Canada.

111   We contacted and worked collaboratively with engineers for RCFO and Torres.

112   We purchased and transported technical equipment to the Camp Fortune site for testing purposes, an expense of several thousand dollars.

113   We dedicated substantial time and effort of our engineering staff, including consultants, for testing purposes.

114   In short, Mr. Chair, Astral has expended significant time, resources and money for the testing of a frequency that it is not interested in using for the benefit of the Commission's analysis and competing applicants.

115   MR. LENNOX: Over a period of six weeks, Astral arranged, ordered and assembled equipment, gathered approvals from CBC and Newcap, and worked through the Industry Canada process, culminating in a regulatory approval on May 20th.

116   Over a period of six and a half days, Astral conducted the tests, studied the results, and composed and submitted a report to the CRTC, using 5,100 recorded data points, as well as 111 listening observations.

117   The results of Astral's research and testing confirmed the following.

118   Astral's CIMF 94.9 would be unlikely to suffer significant interference from the use of 94.5 at the tested power levels.

119   High-end tuners received a signal quite well from 94.5.

120   Automobile radios also worked very well when tuned to 94.5, although, on occasion, there was some additional noise associated with multipath.

121   Medium-priced and expensive receivers experienced reception difficulties.

122   And 94.5 will likely experience increased interference once 94.9 transitions to digital radio.

123   I also note that, according to a study by RCFO's engineer François Gauthier, approximately 30 percent of the 94.5 MHz audience will experience interference when listening to clock radios and Walkmans. The studies by Astral and YRH on behalf of Torres, essentially came to the same conclusion, 34 and 32 percent, respectively.

124   In short, in our view, 94.5 would be feasible with technical restrictions in Ottawa-Gatineau, although not strictly in adherence with Industry Canada rules and procedures.

125   MR. PELSER: Mr. Chair, in order to help the Commission find a solution, Astral is prepared to consent to the use of the 94.5 MHz frequency, subject to certain conditions.

126   These conditions are designed to protect the incumbent station in the market, Astral's CIMF-FM, both at present and in the future.

127   Astral submits that any new licensee on 94.5 must agree to the following Conditions of Licence.

128   First, to operate using the technical parameters which were utilized for testing purposes, and as outlined in the technical brief filed with Industry Canada.

129   Second, if problems arise so that the new licensee's signal interferes with that of 94.9, and these problems cannot be resolved to Astral's satisfaction, the new licensee shall find an alternative frequency.

130   And, third, in the event that the transition to digital radio, by whatever technology employed, renders the continuing operations of one or both stations unworkable, CIMF receives priority to transition to an interference-free digital radio signal as the incumbent broadcaster in the market, irrespective of the impact on the licensee operating at 94.5, and regardless of the technology employed.

131   Astral continues to share the concerns vigorously expressed by the CAB, CBC Radio-Canada, and Corus respecting the negative impact for listeners and existing radio stations of a systematic approach favouring the use of co-sited, second adjacent FM channels in order to increase FM frequency availability.

132   We hope and expect that the Commission will make clear in its decision that this is an exceptional situation, triggered by a direction from the Minister of Canadian Heritage, and that it should not be considered as a precedent applicable to other markets.

133   MR. LENNOX: We wish to stress, however, that Astral's willingness to permit a new licence to operate on 94.5 should not be construed as a desire to operate on 94.5 MHz itself.

134   As stated on the last day of the suspended hearing, the use of 94.5 will not allow Eve FM to sustain its actual business plan and its level of CCD commitments. It will also not allow the type of high-quality and expensive feature programming upon which the concept is based.

135   The service contour of 94.5 is considerably limited when compared to that of 99.7, especially in the western part of the Ottawa-Gatineau market, where a large part of our target audience resides.

136   In comparative terms, 94.5 would transmit from Camp Fortune at 2 percent of the power of 99.7 if operated by Astral from Manotick, Ontario.

137   In addition, the service contour of 94.5 encompasses approximately 700,000 people, and suffers interference from 94.9, while 99.7 is practically interference free, and encompasses an estimated population of 1.2 million people, almost double that of 94.5.

138   Let me be clear, 94.5 is absolutely not a viable option for Eve FM, and Astral is not applying for the use of that frequency.

139   MR. PARISIEN: Mr. Chair, I think we would all agree that this process, commenced in June 2007, has been a long one. It has been sometimes difficult, and often surprising.

140   With all due respect, I submit to you that Astral has done everything it possibly can to find a solution to the issues raised by the Minister of Canadian Heritage. Astral has committed time and resources to provide the Commission with hard evidence to assist with its determinations.

141   On the basis of this evidence, we have now agreed to the use of a new FM frequency, second adjacent to one of our stations, subject to reasonable conditions.

142   Astral has provided the Commission with a solution to its dilemma. We understand that Frank Torres is willing to use the 94.5 frequency, and that YRH has concluded that this frequency, with the technical parameters used for testing, would be commercially viable and would meet the coverage requirements desired by Frank Torres for their Ottawa-Gatineau station.

143   Astral is the only broadcaster who can operate a 100,000-watt station on 99.7, making maximum use of that frequency. Our Eve FM proposal includes close to $6 million of commitments toward the development of Canadian content on top of the minimum requirements.

144   We have an unquestioned reputation for professionalism and programming quality.

145   In our view, Mr. Chair, the choice is a simple one -- licensing Eve FM on 99.7 is in the best interests of the Ottawa-Gatineau community, and the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole. By so doing, the Commission will make available a third FM frequency in the market for other applicants.

146   I thank you, and we are now ready for questions.

147   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

148   First of all, let me thank you for your cooperative approach to this, and the amount of money and effort you have spent in order to help us resolve this issue regarding a frequency which, in your words, you have no intention of applying for. We very much appreciate this helpful and cooperative attitude on behalf of Astral.

149   Let's talk, first of all, about the use of the second adjacent frequency. I read your submission very carefully. You take great pains to take issue with YRH, who suggests that us even considering this 94.5 sets a precedent, et cetera.

150   I think that we quite clearly agree with you that, if we do this, it would be on an exceptional basis, given the situation here.

151   You stated this morning that you wanted to make sure that this is clearly an exception and not a change of policy. As I have said many times, this organization believes very much in transparency and predictability, and if we make a change to existing rules, we will specify whether it is a change in direction or whether it is an exception.

152   For us it is clear that if we do this it would be an exception.

153   What would we have to say in order to satisfy you that this does not amount to, or can be taken as a precedent?

154   MR. PARISIEN: We are obviously on the same page, and what you just said would be proper for us to read in the decision.

155   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

156   I would like you to look at these maps.

157   Madam Secretary, would you please give a copy to the applicants?

158   These are actually your maps, which we reproduced for ease of discussion, and they are available in the document room.

159   The first map shows Ottawa, and it is for 94.5. The blue circle shows what could be received in houses, and the red circle shows what could be received in cars, if I understand it correctly.

160   Is that right, that is what this is for?

161   MR. PELSER: Yes. Typically, the 3 millivolt per metre contour is what we call a city grade contour. Generally, we want to enclose as much of the residential and the commercial portion of the principal community with the 3 millivolts.

162   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but in layman's language, it is in house or by car, basically.

163   MR. PELSER: That's correct.

164   THE CHAIRPERSON: And then the second map shows the same thing, not theoretically but actually what you could receive in areas, and it shows some areas where you wouldn't receive it, if I understand it.

165   MR. PELSER: May I confirm which map that is, which figure?

166   THE CHAIRPERSON: It is the second map in that red booklet that I just gave you.

167   MR. PELSER: That would be the realistic contours.


169   MR. PELSER: When we submit a technical brief to Industry Canada, we often provide them with these two different contours.

170   The first one, Figure 6, which shows nice round circles, that is based on contours using a fairly old method of curves, but it is still required under the rules.

171   The second map is based on a more modern technique, taking into account the actual terrain, and that is why we get the very irregular shape --

172   THE CHAIRPERSON: It's the topography that changes, I gather.

173   MR. PELSER: That's correct.

174   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And, then, the third one my Staff did, and they basically superimposed on the map all of the test sites that the three applicants, RCFO, Astral and YRH, used for the purposes of testing 94.5.

175   And the last map is the same one, but using the realistic contours rather than the geographic ones, if I understand it.

176   Let's use the last one, the one which has the realistic --

177   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Both are realistic. One is more central and the other one is --

178   THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Thank you, Michel.

179   I looked at the red squares, which indicate an Astral location, and what struck me is that all of your listening locations are basically downtown, with a couple in the west end. There doesn't seem to be anything in the south and the east. Can you explain to me why your pattern of testing is so different from the other two?

180   MR. LENNOX: We went through the field strength process first, and went through an observation of those field strengths. We determined what the ratios looked like, and we felt that it was important to do some testing along the river area and out toward the east, which is the area that RCFO was particularly interested in.

181   We felt that we could gather enough information with that series of test points to determine what the general interference issue would be.

182   THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that.

183   Let's take, for instance, Orleans, which is an area that is clearly outside what is marked here. You didn't test for Orleans, yet RCFO and Torres tested for it.

184   On what basis can you draw conclusions for Orleans?

185   MR. LENNOX: We did test in Orleans. We tested in Orleans, and we also tested in Rockland. We made a test down in the area by the ferry docks.

186   So we did hit that area.

187   THE CHAIRPERSON: So this map is wrong, is that what it is?

188   I don't see a square in Orleans.

--- Pause

189   THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

190   So you are looking now at the third map, and you are showing me --

191   MR. LENNOX: The fourth map.

192   THE CHAIRPERSON: The fourth map.

193   There is a square south of Masson, and there is a square in Rockland.

194   So you did actually have somebody there testing.

195   MR. LENNOX: We did actually go out into that area and do some testing. We made commentary on the areas that we felt were applicable to Orleans and Rockland.

196   And we did field strength in the area, and observed the same sort of field strength measurement.

197   THE ADJUDICATOR: Educate me, please. What is field strength?

198   MR. LENNOX: Field strength is the process of receiving, on a very specialized piece of gear, the amount of signal that is actually coming from the transmitter site. It allows us to then accurately determine how much level is available for one frequency versus another, and we are able to compare those two quite easily, both mathematically and --

199   THE CHAIRPERSON: But that's technical, you don't actually use a radio to see what is happening?

200   MR. LENNOX: It is a radio of sorts. It is a very specialized radio that provides us with an actual millivolt measurement.

201   THE CHAIRPERSON: Basically, I want to make sure that I have three tests that all seem to say the same thing, but it looked to me as though the others had more test sites than you. But you are saying that, through this field testing, in effect, you are working from the same level of knowledge.

202   Is it fair to say that the conclusions have been validated by three equivalent tests?

203   MR. LENNOX: I think the three tests are, essentially, showing you the same sorts of results.

204   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

205   Now, when we look at the Torres application, it has what I thought was a very useful scale for layman like me, which is a scale from 1 to 5.

206   It is on page 5 of the Torres -- it is the ITU standard, which goes from "Imperceptible", "Perceptible but Annoying", "Slightly Annoying", "Annoying" and "Very Annoying".

207   You are familiar with it, I am sure, because that is, apparently, what the ITU uses.

208   MR. LENNOX: Yes, we are aware of CCIR. We actually prepared a CCIR table in a similar fashion, although we didn't use the same scale, we used a scale from 1 to 6. We did not put that into the report --

209   THE CHAIRPERSON: For my education, here and now, because this is something that I can relate to, 94.5 would fall where on this scale?

210   MR. LENNOX: You are asking, in general terms, where 94.5 would fall within 1 to 5?


212   If you want to segregate it between car and house, then --

213   MR. LENNOX: I think we have to. I think from our testing, and I think from the observations of others, as well, that it is clear that the car performed extremely well.

214   We also found that high quality receivers performed extremely well.

215   The area where we had difficulty is in the inexpensive receivers. We are talking about clock radios, something that would sit on a bedside table or on top of the fridge --


217   MR. LENNOX: -- inside a business where someone is listening at work, or a Walkman.

218   An example would be this style of device where young people are carrying around an MP3 player on a regular basis and it has an FM tuner built into it.

219   THE CHAIRPERSON: One those three, where would they fall on the scale of 1 to 5?

220   MR. LENNOX: My impression is that from a Walkman and clock radio perspective you would not -- you would not get to a high-quality receive level on a very regular basis.

221   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

222   Now let's go to your conditions that you set out in your letter and that you also repeated this morning.

223   First of all I'm dealing with paragraph 16 of your letter where it says:

"Astral wishes to reiterate the conditions by which it will consent to the use of 94.5. In addition to the Commissions confirmation of Astral EVE-FM 99.7..."

224   So that is your first condition, as I understand it. You say you will only consent if you get a licence for 99.7.

225   Is that right?

226   MR. PARISIEN: Right. That's right, sir.

227   THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?

228   MR. PARISIEN: That is right. Right.


230   Does that also apply the other way around, we don't have to give you one if you don't consent?

231   MR. PARISIEN: I leave that up to you. We will decide what we do with the decision.

232   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I just wanted to understand the spirit in which you are doing this.

233   Okay. Secondly, you say:

"To operate using the technical parameters which were utilized for testing purposes as outlined in the technical brief filed with Industry Canada..."

234   And this morning you actually put in italics this reference, too.

235   What exactly are you getting at, because obviously you are worried about that if they get a licence they would go beyond that.

236   Exactly what --

237   MR. PARISIEN: I will let the engineers respond to that.

238   THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be appreciated.

239   MR. LENNOX: Yes. We have had an opportunity to test 94.5 with respect to 94.9. Our major concern here is that 94.9 is not interfered with in any way, shape or form.


241   MR. LENNOX: It's outside of the scope of this hearing.

242   We went through a process, a fairly extensive process, as did others, and we determined that with the technical parameters that were suggested by Torres consultant, the CIMF would be protected and we would like to keep that protection in place.

243   We would like to know that we don't have to go back and go through this process again or try to overcome interference that we wouldn't have calculated in this process.

244   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I presume power is one of the things. It was tested at 2000, right --

245   MR. LENNOX: That's correct.

246   THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and you don't want to -- you don't know whether at a higher power there would be interference?

247   MR. LENNOX: You are right, we don't know that and that's the concern we have.

248   If a higher power was granted, we would need to verify once again that that higher power wouldn't have effect on CIMF.

249   THE CHAIRPERSON: What I'm trying to get at is why are you being so rigid here. Why couldn't we say we will agree to these conditions, if there is change to any of those then we would have to do exactly what you have just said, we would have to test and to make sure there is no interference before we could agree there, too.

250   I mean, why are we having to cast it in stone exactly on the test conditions?

251   Let's say, for argument's sake -- I'm not an engineer as you can see from the ignorance of my questions, but if, for argument's sake, they go from 2000 to 3000, they test it and there is absolutely no interference with you, why wouldn't you agree to it?

252   MR. LENNOX: We would want to be sure that that does --

253   THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that

254   MR. LENNOX: Yes.

255   THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what I built that into my question. I said I don't know why you want to freeze it at the test conditions, in addition saying any change over and above the test conditions would have to be tested and meet the satisfaction of Astral that it does not interfere with 94.5 before we would agree to it, therefore envisaging the possibility of some changes on the margins without, you know, in any way prejudicing you because it requires your prior approval.

256   MR. PARISIEN: As long as it is clear that the burden is not on 94.7 to do anything. It is not even a frequency that is part of this process. The burden should be on the new user of 94.5, on the first point.

257   Secondly, I think that what we have been saying and what we have put on the public record is that we have done testing to that limit, the one you just referred to, and beyond that we can't commit ourselves.

258   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know. But it seems to me when we are at these conditions they don't have to be quite as tight as you put them. We can use wording to exactly picture your idea of safe. Astral consents to this or to any variation, which however Astral -- at no cost to Astral there has to be additional testing and Astral has to be convinced that this does not interfere with 94.9.

259   MR. PARISIEN: Okay. We are getting there. It could be an acceptable condition of licence.

260   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I would appreciate it if you or your lawyers would put your mind to it and send us what you think would be slightly more expansive conditions along the lines that we have just discussed.

261   MR. PARISIEN: We shall do that--

262   THE CHAIRPERSON: And then your next --

263   MR. PARISIEN: -- before the end of next week.

264   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. That would be fine.

"And if problems arise so that the new licensee's signal interferes with that of 94.9 and the licensee cannot be resolved to Astral's satisfaction, the new licensee shall find an alternative frequency." (As read)

265   And you referred to the Canadian Hellenic Radio Broadcasting. It is actually not the identical wording, I looked it up last night, it is slightly different.

266   MR. PARISIEN: It inspired us.

267   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can see it. But the wording changes, not the material.

268    What I am trying to figure out here is what does "Astral's satisfaction" means?

269   MR. PARISIEN: That there is no change in the reach of our RockDetente station at 94.7, that there is no change.

270   MR. LENNOX: To add to that comment --

271   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes...?

272   MR. LENNOX: -- it's our opinion that we would be very unlikely to see significant interference based on our testing. I don't believe that we would find interference that couldn't be resolved.

273   THE CHAIRPERSON: So is this the belt and suspender provision? Because, you know, you don't see it, but just in case. I mean you, Mr. Lennox, are an expert on this stuff, you do this day in. Are you telling me that you don't see any way that there is likely to be an interference?

274   MR. LENNOX: I don't believe that we will find interference that can't be resolved.

275   THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what happened in the Canadian Hellenic Radio, whether there has been any problem or not, et cetera, but if there is an issue, how would you see that being resolved?

276   I mean presumably there has to be an issue of gradation in here. Just because there is some interference you are not going to say, hey, you have to move your frequency.

277   MR. LENNOX: I think this --

278   THE CHAIRPERSON: You have the mitigality, or however you want to describe it, impact.

279   MR. LENNOX: I think this goes down the same path as some of the decisions that have been made with respect to third adjacent applications and interference.


281   MR. LENNOX: In most cases issues like this can be resolved with the replacement of a receiver and I suspect that that would be the method that would be used. It would be up to the new applicant to look after that in our minds.

282   THE CHAIRPERSON: So you basically say:

"...which cannot be resolved to Astral's satisfaction, notwithstanding the best efforts of the owner of 94.5 in consultation with Astral." (As read)

283   Have you tried attempting to resolve it or something?

284   That is implicit you are telling me?

285   MR. LENNOX: That's correct.

286   THE CHAIRPERSON: Good. Okay. Thank you.

287   And what is this IBOC provision? What really are you driving at with it?

288   We don't even have IBOC in this country yet so I'm not quite sure what this provision is. And it's not in the Hellenic application.

289   MR. LENNOX: No, it's not.

290   IBOC, and specifically HD radio, is something that is being tried in the United States at the moment. They are having some difficulty deciding where the power levels should finally sit. That is between the broadcasters and FCC as we presently sit.

291   At some point in time they will resolve that issue and it is our sense that once that occurs there will be some market pressure for Canada to move in the same direction. That could happen very quickly.

292   In that case we would obviously move towards a digital solution on all of our radio stations at some point in time and there is a likelihood that there would be interference from the digital signal to the analog signal of 94.5.

293   THE CHAIRPERSON: But I am looking at the wording and I am somewhat puzzled. You say:

"CIMF receives priority to transition." (As read)

294   From whom? From Industry Canada? From us?

295   What exactly do you mean by that?

296   MR. LENNOX: I think what we are trying to state here is that we would not want to be held back from implementation of either IBOC HD or other IBOC possibilities over time because 94.5 is actually sitting there. We don't want it to impact our ability to move forward in terms of technology.

297   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

298   Mr. Parisien, if we decide to give you the licence that you want for EVE, subject to agreeing to 94.9, we agree to your conditions (a) and (b) but we don't agree to (c) because this is really something that none of us know what is going to happen, what then?

299   MR. PARISIEN: Well, I can understand your comment but that is precisely our point also. We don't know what is ahead of us. I presume it would be a seven-year licence on 94.5 and we just want to make sure that we have all the options that we have today.

300   Today if something comes along with new technologies, either IBOC or HD or what have you, we do have the option to go there with our RockDetente frequency. If there is someone on 94.5 that is there and we can't do it, we will be prejudiced.

301   THE CHAIRPERSON: But that wasn't my question. My question is: If I give you --

302   MR. PARISIEN: So the answer is I would not accept that.

303   THE CHAIRPERSON: -- (a) and (b) --

304   MR. PARISIEN: I would not accept that.

305   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you don't get EVE either.

306   MR. PARISIEN: Well --

307   THE CHAIRPERSON: You are willing to lose EVE over this condition (c).

308   MR. PARISIEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, at one point we have to protect what we have --

309   THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.

310   MR. PARISIEN: -- and that's what we are doing, and I think we also --

311   THE CHAIRPERSON: And at one point in time I have to decide whether --

312   MR. PARISIEN: I think we also filed a good application and I don't want to be taken as a hostage because of a certain political situation that developed. I think Astral offered a lot of cooperation, I think we are giving you options that are solutions to you, but we do have to protect RockDetente, who is not ever party to this issue.

313   So we are saying we --

314   THE CHAIRPERSON: RockDetente is not a separate organization, it's your station.

315   MR. PARISIEN: It's our organization, yes, we recognize that, but all of a sudden it's the major issue of this hearing, which was for a new application for an English-language station in Ottawa.

316   THE CHAIRPERSON: I know. But it's one thing to say, you know, if there is an IBOC, et cetera, et cetera, you know --

317   MR. PARISIEN: Well, maybe you can --

318   THE CHAIRPERSON: This issue has to be resolved.

319   MR. PARISIEN: Maybe you will find the adequate way to phrase it so that our objectives are met, and our objectives are that over the term of the licence if we have options --

320   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Right.

321   MR. PARISIEN: -- that are driven by new technology we can go there.

322   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I'm glad we had this discussion, because I think we are on the same wavelength, it is just the way it's worded here --

323   MR. PARISIEN: Okay.

324   THE CHAIRPERSON: It's both you and me in effect --

325   MR. PARISIEN: You probably have more experience how to word it.

326   THE CHAIRPERSON: What I'm trying to say, I can appreciate that you want to protect your IBOC --

327   MR. PARISIEN: You probably have more experience on wording it than we do.

328   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. But the main thing is you want to have your IBOC options preserved. That is what this is really driving at. Okay.

329   Okay, those are really my questions.

330   Michel, did you have some questions?

331   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Yes, I have a few. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

332   Back to the test period, on which grounds were the test parameters chosen?

333   Why have you chosen the CIRA antenna? Why 2000 watts rather than 8000 watts, as YHR(sic) states the antenna could have supported? and why Camp Fortune's CBC tower rather than the Glendale(sic) tower?

334   Could you help us understanding the reasoning behind the various choices that you have made for the test period?

335   MR. LENNOX: Sure.

336   First of all, the parameters that we used were parameters that were suggested by Torres and his consultant. We just simply accommodated that suggestion. They made the suggestion that Camp Fortune was available and options were available on it so we went and looked at what was available in Camp Fortune, asked the appropriate landlords and lessees on the site and that's why we took advantage of that.

337   We did not look at the Glentel tower. We felt that it's position and the height that an antenna could be placed on it would not properly serve the Ottawa market.

338   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: And the 2000 watt power was a suggestion made by YRH?

339   MR. LENNOX: YRH made that suggestion. We simply acknowledged that and filed based on their suggestion.

340   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Now, were any Code 6 tests done during the test period?

341   MR. LENNOX: We did not do any Safety Code 6 testing as such in terms of field strength readings if that is what you are referring to. We did have D.E.M. Allen investigate it and provide a report on it to CBC.

342   MR. PELSER: We were of the opinion at that point -- we had limited time to take the measurements. We are also of the opinion that the contribution of this 2000-watt station, of the overall power coming from Camp Fortune was negligible, and the CBC had been very diligent in measuring and fencing the site, and as Mr. Marcotte said earlier, they have fenced the site with some additional margin. So our judgment was that we wouldn't exceed any Safety Code 6 limits at the Camp Fortune site with the addition of this station.

343   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: So if the Commission was to grant the use of the 94.5 frequency with the conditions that you have already set, it is your view that that will more than likely meet Safety Code 6 requirements?

344   MR. PELSER: That is correct. I believe it probably would be part of the CBC lease to have measurements taken but that is a normal course of action.

345   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Thank you. Those are my questions.

346   LE PRÉSIDENT : Michel?

347   CONSEILLER MORIN : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

348   Je ne voudrais pas, évidemment, me faire répétitif par rapport aux questions qu'ont posé Konrad von Finckenstein et Michel Arpin, mais on sait tous que nous avons été pressés par l'ajout de cette nouvelle fréquence dans le débat par Torres, qui est arrivé lors de la dernière audience, en sortant de son chapeau cette nouvelle fréquence.

349   Évidemment, généralement, je comprends, et le représentant de Radio-Canada l'a dit un peu ce matin, que, généralement, quand on vient devant la Commission, il y a un accord entre les parties pour l'utilisation d'une deuxième fréquence, et que, parfois, ça peut être même le même joueur -- c'est arrivé avec le groupe Pattison dans le passé -- où le proposeur proposait une deuxième adjacente, mais contre lui, enfin, se brouillait lui-même, et donc, finalement, c'est lui qui prenait tous les risques.

350   Ce n'est pas la situation dans laquelle, évidemment, on se trouve aujourd'hui, et j'avoue que quand je lis en page 3 que vous auriez préféré faire une étude beaucoup plus approfondie avant de venir devant la Commission, j'avoue que ça m'inquiète quelque peu.

351   Je voulais, d'abord, vous demander : Si on avait eu des conditions normales et si on n'avait pas été pressé par le temps, comme on semble l'être, est-ce que vous auriez pu... pensez-vous, avec les études que vous avez faites, est-ce que vous auriez pu vous entendre avec un autre partenaire avec des études semblables sur l'utilisation d'une deuxième adjacente, compte tenu des études que vous avez faites?

352   M. PARISIEN : Je crois, Monsieur Morin, qu'une partie du point que vous soulevez peut être traitée de la façon suivante. Je ne pense pas qu'on aurait pu s'entendre de gré à gré avec un autre requérant sur tous les sujets. Je pense qu'il faut l'intervention du Conseil au niveau des conditions de licence et les choses qu'on a discutées ce matin.

353   Quant aux aspects techniques, ce que vous avez entendu les ingénieurs dire aujourd'hui, c'est que, avec les tests qu'ils ont faits, selon leur expérience, ils sont satisfaits que, a priori, il ne devrait pas y avoir de problème. C'est sûr que si on avait fait des études beaucoup plus exhaustives, beaucoup plus longues...

354   CONSEILLER MORIN : Je comprends, mais si vous étiez parti là, vous-même avec un autre.

355   M. PARISIEN : Non. Non, je ne pense pas que c'est la façon qu'on aurait voulu proposer. Je pense que la façon qu'on a proposée, c'est de répondre à la question de monsieur le président en faisant les études et en déposant toute l'information qu'on a pu recueillir et aussi notre conclusion, qui est à l'effet que la fréquence est disponible et pourrait être accordée à un autre joueur sous certaines conditions.

356   C'est sûr que si on avait eu six mois, huit mois de plus, on aurait peut-être pu faire d'autres tests plus précis, mais les ingénieurs sont d'accord pour dire que les résultats auraient probablement été similaires.

357   CONSEILLER MORIN : Oui, mais vous ne seriez... dans le cadre d'une audience " normale ", vous ne seriez pas aussi avancés -- je répète un peu ma question, à laquelle vous avez déjà répondu -- vous ne seriez peut-être pas aussi avancés, compte tenu des études que vous avez faites actuellement.

358   M. PARISIEN : Peut-être. C'est hypothétique encore, mais peut-être. Mais je ne considère pas que c'est une audience...

359   CONSEILLER MORIN : Mais dans le passé. Dans le passé.

360   M. PARISIEN : ...qui a évolué dans un environnement standard.

361   CONSEILLER MORIN : On est d'accord. Mais dans le passé, vous avez peut-être... J'ai la liste ici. Je n'ai pas remarqué si vous avez l'utilisation d'une deuxième adjacente avec un autre partenaire dans un autre marché.

362   M. PARISIEN : Non, on n'en a pas. On n'a pas beaucoup d'expérience là-dedans, non.

363   CONSEILLER MORIN : Parce que vous craignez. D'accord. Mais ce que je comprends des huit... un peu plus d'une demi-douzaine d'autres deuxième adjacentes dans le marché canadien, il y a toujours, avant, une entente entre les partenaires, et elle est formelle, ou bien c'est le partenaire avec lui-même. Mais on n'est pas... c'est les circonstances actuelles qui nous pressent...

364   M. PARISIEN : Voilà!

365   CONSEILLER MORIN : tout le monde fait vite ses devoirs sans être certain, et vous arrivez devant nous avec une deuxième adjacente à laquelle vous donnez votre accord, conditionnel, par contre. Ça, c'est du jamais vu.

366   M. PARISIEN : Tout à fait!

367   CONSEILLER MORIN : Merci, Monsieur.


369   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

370   In your opening remarks on page 9, towards the end, Mr. Parisien, in your conclusion you say:

"On the basis of this evidence, we have now agreed to the use of a new FM frequency, second adjacent to one of our stations, subject to reasonable conditions." (As read)

371   I focus on the word "reasonable" because -- I guess the Chairman raised it with you as well -- some of the conditions you have put on here would require the operator of 94.5 if it was awarded to find an alternative frequency. We all know there isn't one. We have been working very diligently in this whole process to find one.

372   So at the end of the day there are two issues here, one is customer impact and the other is cost, and what you are suggesting here by suggesting that you are being reasonable is that all the eggs are in your basket if we award you 99.7, and whoever is awarded 94.5 has to swim on his own if, in fact, some of these conditions in b) and c) come to fruition.

373   I guess I raise the question: Is that reasonable?

374   MR. PARISIEN: Well, in all due respect, I think it is reasonable in the circumstances. I think that RockDétente 94.7 has been on air with a frequency, with a reach, with a power level that now may be challenged by someone else and I think it is very normal that we ask that it be protected when someone else comes on another frequency which is right next to it. And reasonable would be a question of interpretation.

375   COMMISSIONER KATZ: The other piece that you are missing is you don't have 99.7 right now. It is something that you have applied for and it is being reconsidered now as well.

376   MR. PARISIEN: I appreciate that.

377   COMMISSIONER KATZ: So you have got to look at the bigger picture here.

378   MR. PARISIEN: I appreciate that. We know.

379   COMMISSIONER KATZ: And under the circumstances, you still believe you are being reasonable by saying you would get 99.7, if in fact the Commission awards it, and these conditions are reasonable, that whoever ends up with 94.5 is on his own to sink or swim if an issue comes up.

380   MR. PARISIEN: I think that, in the circumstances, yes.

381   MR. LENNOX: I think "reasonable" is the right word and I firmly believe that we will see no significant issue to 94.9 given the current parameters. I don't believe that we will run into a problem. We know that the installation can be done technically. This is not a transmitter issue. This is not a transmitter installation or transmission issue.

382   This is an issue of receivers and, in my view, we would run into problems where a receiver might require moving, where perhaps we would have to go as far as a new receiver going into place but that would be the maximum issue.

383   COMMISSIONER KATZ: But if that is the maximum issue, then why are you putting in clearly that unless Astral is fully satisfied, the new licensee shall find an alternative "frequency" is the word you used here, not will get a new receiver or invest whatever cost to remedy it but will find an alternative frequency. I mean that is as extreme as you can possibly be, especially given that there aren't any frequencies.

384   MR. LENNOX: We could -- we are certainly open to modifying that particular comment because I do believe that at the expense of the operator of 94.5 any receiver issue can be overcome.

385   THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought Mr. Parisien undertook to send us a revised wording or his conditions, so we will see what he comes up with.

386   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Those are my questions.

387   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you, that's all. Thank you very much.

388   MR. PARISIEN: Thank you.

389   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Secrétaire, est-ce qu'on a besoin d'une pause?

390   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Oui.

391   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. On va prendre une autre pause.

--- Upon recessing at 1110

--- Upon resuming at 1121

392   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K., Madame la Secrétaire, allons-y.

393   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

394   We will now proceed with the third participant, Frank Torres on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, applying for a licence to operate an English-language commercial FM radio programming undertaking in Ottawa.

395   Appearing for Frank Torres OBCI is Mr. Ed Torres. Please introduce your colleagues and begin your presentation.


396   MR. E. TORRES: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chairmen, Commissioners and Commission staff.

397   My name is Ed Torres. I'm the Chairman of Torres Media Ottawa and the President and co-founder of Skywords Media.

398   I would like to begin by thanking the Commission for this opportunity to present our position with respect to frequency 94.5 to serve the Ottawa-Gatineau market.

399   Please allow me to introduce our panel.

400   Seated to my right is my brother Frank Torres. Frank is the President of Torres Media Ottawa and the Chief Operations Officer at Skywords. Together, we founded Skywords in 1991. Today it is a national radio company with offices in four Canadian major markets, including Edmonton, Halifax, Toronto and Ottawa. Our company has operated in Ottawa and Gatineau since 1994.

401   To Frank's right is Todd Bernard, a resident of Ottawa and General Manager of Skywords, launched here in 1994, as we mentioned, and he will be the General Manager of CIDG-FM. He listened extensively to 94.5 during the recent test period, at all hours of the day and in all part of the market.

402   To my left, Yves Trottier, who was hired at Director of Operations for DAWG-FM.

403   We consulted three engineering companies in examining frequency options for Ottawa. Beside Yves is Maurice Beauséjour, a Professional Engineer holding the position of Vice-President of Operations for Yves R. Hamel et Associés Inc., known as YRH.

404   Beside Maurice is Joseph Sadoun, Professional Engineer who has worked at YRH for the past 10 years. Joseph was on site during the testing of 94.5. He carried out exhaustive signal tests throughout the Ottawa-Gatineau market taking over 64,000 samples of signal strength and quality using different receivers.

405   Our presentation today will focus on:

406   - the irrefutable and unequivocal evidence that 94.5 works without interference to incumbent broadcasters; and

407   - an examination of the relative merits of 94.5 versus 101.7 to serve Francophone residents of the National Capital Region.

408   We believe that you will agree with us in light of this presentation that you can uphold Decision 2008-222 by licensing Astral for Eve-FM and Torres for DAWG-FM on 99.7 and 101.9, respectively. You can also approve a French-language community radio station in principle, knowing that there is at least one frequency that can meet their needs.

409   M. TROTTIER : Le gouverneur en conseil vous a demandé de reconsidérer la décision CRTC 2008-222 en vue, notamment, d'assurer un service adéquat pour les minorités de langues officielles dans la région de la capitale nationale.

410   Pour ce faire, vous avez demandé aux requérants de mettre à jour leur application et de démontrer comment ils répondent aux besoins des minorités linguistiques.

411   Dans une lettre datée du 23 mars 2009, vous avez demandé s'il existait une autre fréquence qui pourrait être utilisée dans ce marché. Nous avons fourni au Conseil, lors de la nouvelle audience en mars dernier, une étude technique démontrant que la fréquence 94,5 peut desservir le marché d'Ottawa-Gatineau sans aucune interférence auprès d'autres titulaires de licence.

412   L'audience du mois de mars a été ajournée à aujourd'hui afin de donner aux parties le temps d'examiner définitivement si la fréquence 94,5 pouvait être techniquement viable.

413   Astral a démontré cette faisabilité en réunissant tous les équipements et la plupart des autorisations nécessaires pour expérimenter cette fréquence dans le laps relativement court que la Commission avait fixé pour cette nouvelle audience.

414   Aujourd'hui, la preuve que l'utilisation de la fréquence 94,5 ne cause aucune interférence aux autres diffuseurs est sans équivoque. En outre, les essais effectués par Astral et ceux effectués en notre nom par la firme d'ingénieurs YRH confirment que 94,5 est une fréquence viable qui peut desservir les francophones d'Ottawa-Gatineau mieux que les fréquences 101,9 et 101, 7.

415   En fait, 94,5 est près de recevoir une autorisation technique à opérer. Elle a réussi les essais préliminaires de mise en ondes d'Industrie Canada, puisqu'elle ne cause aucune interférence nuisible.

416   Bien que nous soyons confiants que les fréquences 99,7 et 101,9 reçoivent une telle approbation, cela n'est pas le cas actuellement. Il est important de noter que jusqu'à présent, Industrie Canada n'a pas délivré d'approbation technique pour le 101,7.

417   MR. SADOUN: YRH was retained by Torres to perform an RF measurement study and point location reception quality assessment of the test station operated by Astral Media on 94.5. These measurements allowed us to establish that a second adjacent channel to the existing CIMF-FM channel would be viable for the Ottawa market.

418   On May 20th, 2009, I attended as an observer at the On Air test performed by Astral Media's VP of Operations, Wally Lennox, and with Industry Canada's inspector, Robert Regimbald.

419   My observations of the test station's operations parameters allowed me to feel confident and satisfied with Astral Media's installation and also attest to the fact that Mr. Regimbald certified that the station was operating at the parameters specified in the technical brief that was approved for this test and with sufficient protection to the NavCom band.

420   Then, using a realistic CRC Predict coverage and interference map, a drive test route and receive signal quality listening point locations were planned to measure the signal at worst predicted interference locations.

421   To ensure that all of the targeted Ottawa area was properly evaluated, a drive test measurement method utilizing a spectrum analyzer and a GPS receiver similar to that used by cellular carriers was chosen to measure the signal strength of four individual stations: the test station on 94.5, the second adjacent CIMF-FM on 94.9, the third adjacent CKKL-FM on 93.9 and CBOF-FM on 90.7 as the control station.

422   A total of 16,228 measurements were recorded for each of these stations along the approximate 300-kilometre campaign route.

423   We also established that the test station signal 70 dBu and 54 dBu service contours at 9.1 metre would reach the CRC predict realistic coverage that we had calculated for the test station.

424   We also compared the measured signal strength of the test station to the realistic contours presented in the D.E.M. Allen and Associates Engineering brief prepared for Astral Media and found that they are equally aligned.

425   Lastly, this part of the test allowed us to demonstrate that for the majority of the tested area the signal received from the Test Station was free of second adjacent interference as defined in BPR3.

426   The second part of the test consisted of a qualitative assessment of the received audio of the four measured stations using the ITUCCIR quality grading method.

427   These measurements were taken at 47 locations, all chosen at worst predicted interference location, to demonstrate that the stereophonic signal quality from the test station corresponds to an acceptable level, which is considered to be a CCIR impairment grade of 3 or better within its 54 dBu realistic contour.

428   A good quality car radio, a low-cost alarm clock radio and a Walkman, considered as the lowest common denominator, were used for this listening test.

429   The analysis of the qualitative test results allowed us to demonstrate that at the 47 quality assessment locations, the car radio receiver was demodulating the test station audio with acceptable quality at 100 percent, the low-cost alarm clock radio at 83 percent and the poor quality Sony Walkman at 68 percent of those locations.

430   Finally, knowing the particularities of second adjacent reception and considering that in the majority of the tested locations a good receiver offered good audio quality, a CCIR grade of 4 or better, in more than 95 percent of the listening points and campaign route, we conclude that the frequency 94.5 MHz operated at the Test Station class B1 parameters would be a viable option.

431   M. BEAUSÉJOUR : Un certain nombre de cartes de contour de service ont été présentées dans le cadre de ces audiences publiques. J'aimerais présenter les contours théoriques libres d'interférence de chacune de ces fréquences.

432   Le contour libre d'interférence du 101,7, tel que déposé par Spectrum Experts, ne couvre pas le marché central d'Ottawa. Il ne permet pas d'offrir un service libre d'interférence aux municipalités de Rockland, Aylmer, Embrum, Casselman et Plantagenet. Par ailleurs, on y montre une zone importante d'interférence à l'intérieur même du contour primaire de 70 dBu, en provenance de la station co-canal CHIP-FM de Fort-Coulonge, à moins de 65 kilomètres d'Ottawa. Notons finalement que le 101,7 n'a pas reçu son acceptabilité technique d'Industrie Canada.

433   Le 101,9 proposé par Torres a reçu son acceptabilité technique d'Industrie Canada. Tel que vous pouvez le constater, cette fréquence, quoique quelque peu limitée au nord de la rivière des Outaouais, permet une couverture adéquate du marché central d'Ottawa. Selon les contours proposés au mémoire technique, le 101,9 ne permet pas d'offrir un service libre d'interférence aux municipalités de Rockland, Aylmer, Embrun, Casselman et Plantagenet, pour ne nommer que celles-ci.

434   La fréquence de 94,5 permet un service intéressant du marché central d'Ottawa, ainsi que d'une partie de Gatineau. Vous pouvez constater que cette fréquence est supérieure à celles de 101,9 et 101,7 et offre un service libre d'interférence aux municipalités de Rockland, French Hill, Orléans, Léonard et Cumberland, pour ne nommer que celles-ci. Les essais réalisés par Astral et Torres Media, et déposés auprès de la Commission, démontrent que le niveau de signal est équivalent, sinon supérieur, à celui présenté sur cette carte.

435   Le 99,7 tel que déposé et accepté par Industrie Canada pour cinq des requérants initiaux permet un contour de service légèrement inférieur à celui du 94,5, mais supérieur à ceux du 101,9 et 101,7.

436   Le 99,7 proposé par Astral permet un contour de service largement supérieur, mais est conditionnel aux changements de paramètres de la station CKQB-FM-1 de Pembroke.

437   Afin de permettre une meilleure visualisation, je vous propose maintenant de superposer les contours libres d'interférence des différentes fréquences présentées dans le cadre de ces audiences :

438   - premièrement, le 101,7;

439   - maintenant, le 101,9 tel que présenté par Torres, ayant reçu son acceptabilité technique d'Industrie Canada;

440   - le 94,5 tel que conçu par les firmes d'ingénierie YRH et D.E.M. Allen and Associates, DEMA;

441   - finalement, le 99,7 tel que présenté par le groupe Evanov, et le 99,7 proposé par le groupe Astral.

442   MR. BERNARD: In its response to the CBC letter, RCFO states that it will only accept 94.5 if it is equal or superior to 101.7. The contour maps just outlined by Maurice demonstrate clearly that 94.5 is superior to 101.7. In fact, additional reasons make us believe that 101.7 cannot provide the coverage that RCFO says it needs.

443   First of all, 101.7 is not 101.9. While we have received technical approval for 101.9, RCFO has not received technical approval for 101.7 and, in fact, the plan for use of 101.7 submitted by RCFO has a number of technical implications which are problematic at best. We would be pleased to explain in greater depth during the questions period.

444   Most importantly, the proposed signal will not meet two significant components of the National Capital Region Francophone population that RCFO has indicated are key to their proposal: residents of Gatineau and rural Franco-Ontarians in places like Casselman and Embrun.

445   The theoretical contours that Maurice showed you indicate much better coverage by 94.5 in Gatineau and in rural areas of Franco-Ontarian population. In addition, the audio testing report by YRH that we submitted to you showed that 94.5 could be reached in a car tuner to a point 30 kilometres from the Quebec border on the 417. Areas like Embrun and Casselman received the signal well. This cannot be said of either 101.9 or 101.7.

446   Finally, the slide you see now, which is number 8 in the handout, shows the population counts of those whose first language is French who are reached by the various signals. What I would like to highlight is the fact that the Francophone population within the 0.5 mV/m contour of 101.7 is 10,599 people, whereas for 94.5 that number is 81,230.

447   Clearly, RCFO's condition to accept 94.5 has been met. It is much superior to our 101.9 and to their 101.7.

448   MR. F. TORRES: We appreciate that Astral has granted conditional approval for use of its second adjacent frequency. It appears that this process has brought one of Canada's largest broadcasters together with RCFO to try to find a solution. This concession means that the Commission can uphold the decision to award Astral a fourth FM licence in the market, introduce a diverse new format and voice to Ottawa-Gatineau, that of DAWG-FM, and provide community radio service to the Francophone population.

449   RCFO and Astral have shown by co-authoring the various Spectrum Expert studies and maps that they are able to work cooperatively to make 94.5 efficient for both of their objectives. As such, we believe that 94.5 would be maximized and brought to its full potential either by Astral or a French-language community radio station.

450   MR. E. TORRES: Broadcasting Decision 2009-222 granted our group its first broadcasting licence on 101.9 FM. It was a decision that will bring a diverse new format and a new voice to both Ottawa and the Canadian broadcasting system.

451   Once the Order-In-Council was published, we acted proactively to examine possible solutions to this unique situation.

452   We undertook extensive technical research to find a frequency that would meet the needs of the Francophone community.

453   We met with the official language minority applicants to help them fine-tune share projections, business plans and technical aspects of their applications.

454   We consulted extensively with politicians and public servants at all levels of government to understand the needs of the communities involved.

455   We committed funding to support the ongoing operations of a minority language radio station recognizing the challenges that they face. We provided this with no strings attached, without condition.

456   We also committed to assist any new French-language radio station with technical, programming, sales and marketing expertise.

457   Finally, we diligently followed all of the rules and procedures that the Commission lays out in the licensing process.

458   We have done everything within reason to accommodate and cooperate with the various interests at play in this hearing.

459   In consideration of this, we urge the Commission to uphold Decision 2009-222 in the most expeditious way possible.

460   Thank you for your attention and we look forward to your questions.

461   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your submission.

462   First of all, as I said before, thank you for even putting 94.5 on the map. It wasn't until you raised it at the hearing and you have done an enormous amount of work both then and now to allow us to evaluate the feasibility of licensing 94.5 and I appreciate your efforts in this regard.

463   Now, do I detect a change of heart here? In your letter of May 26th, the last sentence says -- where you make your conclusion on 94.5 you say:

"Indeed, such a station would possibly have better potential than the current Ottawa Class A application on channel 259, 99.7 MHz and channel 270, 101.9 MHz." (As read)

464   Your presentation this morning was all focusing on RCFO. Let's focus on Frank Torres. Would 94.5 not be better for you than 101.9?

465   MR. E. TORRES: This certainly is a question that we want to be very clear on. 101.9, as we said at the last hearing, is our preferred frequency. It is the frequency that our business plan has been built upon.

466   Once we were issued the licence, Mr. Chairman, we started on a critical path and we were 45 days into that critical path. That critical path included marketing pieces. It included engineering. We negotiated lease space for both our tower. We started to purchase equipment. In fact, we started the process to get approvals from NAV CANADA for the installation of our tower, coincidentally, which just arrived yesterday.

467   So we don't want to undo the nine months of work that we have done to get that approval and we don't want to lose the investment that we have made in 101.9.

468   The marketing piece that I have talked about, and I mean we have hinted at it but we have always stopped short of saying that our launch promotion is going to be 101 electric guitars, Blues guitars. These were ordered to fit a manufacturing cycle at the end of September. So these guitars are going to arrive and they are all custom with 101.9 DAWG-FM logos. They are going to be collector's pieces.

469   The other thing is that this is our fourth -- we have completed four briefs and we have done it through YRH, one of the most respected engineering firms in Canada. We certainly don't want to incur further costs of an additional brief on 94.5. We presented that as an option.

470   Secondly and just as important, the conditions that Astral has placed on 94.5 are just too onerous to expect a commercial operator to co-exist under that language. We are going to have an effect on RockDétente. We are going to have an effect on Virgin. We are going to be a commercial applicant and we think that the best use of 94.5 is for a community organization that doesn't have those commercial interests.

471   Those are the two main reasons. I can go on and expand on this.

472   THE CHAIRPERSON: I seem to recall that at the end of the last hearing when I asked you would you take any one of those three frequencies if they are available and you said yes.

473   MR. E. TORRES: Yes. I think I said in a heartbeat.

474   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You haven't changed your heartbeat?

475   MR. E. TORRES: No. I mean there certainly are preferences for 101.9. 94.5 does the job, I guess, and what we are trying to illustrate there is that the signal works. At the last hearing it was a theoretical, it was a map, but now we know that the signal does exactly what the engineers had engineered it to do.

476   We didn't bring forward -- we brought that solution forward as a possible way out of this but we still -- we are a commercial enterprise, we are going to be selling advertising.

477   THE CHAIRPERSON: Being a commercial enterprise, by your own chart you would reach 517,000 people rather than 288,000. Surely, that has an impact on your bottom line.

478   MR. E. TORRES: It does. And again, when we look at it, the problem is really the money that we have invested that we stand to lose or at least we have to start from square one. We brought forward this solution, you know, to show that there was an additional frequency.

479   We think we have done the heavy lifting on this. We have brought the solution this far. I think in the interest of fairness, we are just asking, let us go and do our own thing as licensed on 101.9 to start at day 46 of our critical path instead of going back to day one and incur all those costs again.

480   MR. F. TORRES: Since our business plan was modelled on 101.9, it is a perfectly acceptable signal to us even though we have shown that it has a lesser reach than 94.5. Just the education process of educating our bankers on the validity of our business plan, that is all based on 101.9 and we would have to undo all of that work. Some of it is very tangible and we have invoices to show for it and some of it is less tangible in the form of time spent to develop it to the point where we are at now.

481   THE CHAIRPERSON: Rita, you are the expert on this developing thing. Go ahead.

482   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: We have learned to be experts on a lot of things throughout this process.

483   If I understand your position correctly, you would like us to convince RCFO that 94.5 is a viable frequency for them?

484   MR. E. TORRES: I think that -- we have shown them the maps and now we have got the engineers that have tested it. As you heard this morning Astral, all of the engineers have come to the same conclusion. I mean we kind of look at our group as the only one that comes without conditions and we don't know that that is patently fair. We haven't placed any conditions on our accepting any of the frequencies.

485   I mean we are the newcomer to the broadcasting system and that is why we say that we will accept 94.5 but obviously our preference in order is 101.9, 99.7 and then 94.5. And again, the reason for that is we don't want to be tied to Astral's conditions. For example, the IBOC radio, which there has been very little movement on HD radio, well, if you license us on 94.5, what is to stop Astral from developing an HD radio plan tomorrow? And the conditions are onerous.

486   And again, I think that Astral will be a good corporate citizen with a community group and they have shown leadership in that sector before. So we think that it just makes sense to put the community radio station on 94.5. What we have just tried to show is that the frequency meets the needs of that community. It meets exactly what RCFO has laid out as its areas that it wants to penetrate into.

487   And I think that pairing a community and a commercial makes sense. Putting two commercial interests back to back on that is going to be more difficult.

488   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So you will not hand back the approval if we grant you 94.5 as opposed to -- you are not going to say thanks, but no thanks.

489   MR. E. TORRES: No, we are not.

490   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: What impact will that have on your business plan?

491   MR. E. TORRES: Well, I mean it's going to -- you know, all the four hearings aside, we are going to take that $600,000 that we have spent to date to get 101.9 and we are going to have to put that in the financials of 94.5.

492   So immediately that could retard our profitability by one or two years. It could mean that we are not profitable in the first licence term and now we have to go back to the bank and we are going to have to explain to them that we are starting from square one again. It's a conversation that I think I don't want to have.

493   MR. F. TORRES: And there is fear. There is fear at this table, let's not mince words, that we may never get 94.5 to air because it's tied in, it is handcuffed to Astral and possibly even to NewCap and we need to be exclusive. We need to be standalone to be able to succeed and to get our station launched.

494   I think that's how best we can address our position on 94.5.

495   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And speaking of the Astral conditions, is it just that HD condition or IBOC condition that is the most onerous?

496   MR. E. TORRES: I'm not a lawyer -- but I have two kids that I'm pushing into that -- and when I read through the various submissions of Astral I don't see anywhere where they say that 94.9 does not conclusively receive interference from 94.5. They say it should not.

497   Interference is a very subjective issue, so, you know, it's not just the IBOC condition, it's all of the conditions, which again, when you have two competing interests, you know, again let's not mince words, they can delay -- at the least they can delay us getting on the air. Cooperation would be difficult.

498   It's much better in this case I think to have the two commercial interests on their own standalone frequencies.

499   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In your letter of May 26th, paragraph 14, you say:

"A broadcaster could start up with a viable power output of 2000 W, but not be limited there indefinitely." (As read)

500   And you say that the station:

"The signal could be upgraded to up to 8000 W." (As read)

501   Is that -- you say "to 8000", is it up to 8000? Can it go beyond that?

502   MR. E. TORRES: I will maybe let Maurice and Joseph handle that question.

503   MR. SADOUN: Thank you, Ed.

504   To answer that question, the station operating at 2000 W can only operate up to 2000 W in the NewCap antenna because it needs to protect some short spaced stations, namely CKMF and a few other allotments that are in Chapeau, and I don't remember the other location.

505   If the station would be allowed to go up in power, up to a point where it wouldn't still cause -- it would still not cause interference to CIMF-FM, there would need to be an antenna change and, more than that, there would have to be a directional pattern used to reach that 8000 W ERP towards Ottawa and keep on protecting short space stations.

506   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So is it your expert opinion that should a station be granted 94.5 that 2000 W should be the maximum?

507   MR. SADOUN: Not that it should be the maximum, but that under this condition where they are using the NewCap antenna they would not be able to go beyond that 2000 W.

508   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay, thank you. Because again it goes to one of the Astral conditions, which was that if as licence is granted at 94.5 it be granted on the basis of the testing parameters.

509   And you would agree with that?

510   MR. SADOUN: I would agree with that to the extent that -- not because it would cause adverse interference to Astral if that station would go higher in power, just because it needs to protect other short space stations around it.

511   COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Well, thank you very much.

512   Those are my questions.

513   THE CHAIRPERSON: Len...?

514   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

515   I want to come back to a comment you made, Mr. Torres, regarding the money invested and you stand to lose. It was sunk costs, but the reality is in this economy it may be crucial as well.

516   So you mentioned you have already spent to date $600,000?

517   MR. E. TORRES: Yes. I think at the last hearing -- and we had our CFO with us -- we had a sum that exceeded $500,000 on the books to get the station on the air.

518   So with the added marketing costs and with the added hearing costs, the additional engineering work that we have done, it's a ballpark figure.

519   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Have you committed to signed leases for space and equipment that will no longer be useful if in fact you were awarded a different frequency than the one that you were awarded, 101.9?

520   MR. E. TORRES: Yes. I think that -- well, in terms of work we have done on NAV CANADA it's specific to the tower location so, you know, that work would be undone.

521   The lease commitments, again I think that, you know, it would be very hard to get out of them.

522   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Are there liabilities and penalties you would have to pay to get out of them?

523   MR. E. TORRES: Sure. I imagine there is. I don't have the contracts, but, you know, there will be.

524   COMMISSIONER KATZ: And you are saying they could not be used if you were awarded a different frequency?

525   MR. E. TORRES: Well, again, our business plan based on 101.9 had certain strategic aspects which included the studio locations and the tower locations. The distance between the tower and the studio, it's all intricate and intricate to the business plan, so they are all weaved together.

526   So essentially we are starting from square one. We have to undo all the things that we have done I think, or at least review them and see if we could piecework and get them over to 94.5.

527   MR. F. TORRES: The NAV CANADA approval is a perfect example. We received that yesterday and that was a nine-month process and that is absolutely specific to the location of our broadcast tower on a 101.9. So that is a perfect example of work that would have to be reversed and that is nine months worth of work right there.

528   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Okay, that's nine months. I was going to come to that, because I believe you mentioned you were on day 45 of your initial critical path.

529   So it's not as if we are turning you back 45 days, what I'm now hearing is we are turning you back as much as nine months.

530   MR. E. TORRES: Absolutely correct.

531   MR. F. TORRES: Correct.


533   Now, from a business perspective -- I think the Chairman asked you this question, but when we look at your last table on page 8 and the fact that the proposed 94.5 has a much broader reach, notwithstanding the money you have invested in the timelines, from a business plan perspective, would the economics -- you have to redo your business plan at 94.5 -- result in a better profitability, notwithstanding what you have already sunk, because you have better reach than you would at 101.9?

534   MR. E. TORRES: The way the contours shape -- and again, we went into the process and we evaluated 99.7 and 101.9 and from all of the tower locations that we could find for 99.7 they gave good coverage in the Gatineau. That wasn't really an area where we wanted to focus and that's why we chose 101.9, which right from the outset of this hearing 101.9 was always the weaker signal to 99.7.

535   And we have done this before, we have seen other broadcasters do this before, where they apply on the lesser of the frequencies, you know, because there will be less applicants, you know, the large companies will tend to go for the big signals, so we thought our first application we would strategically use 101.9. So the business plan is all predicated on that.

536   The areas of coverage for example to the southwest of Ottawa, they are going to be key for a blues/rock station because that is where Scotiabank Place is. So there are going to be outdoor concerts, there are going to be concerts there. Again, so our promotional plans hinge around us putting a good quality signal into the West End of Ottawa, not the East End of Ottawa as 94.5 does.

537   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Okay. Those are my questions.

538   THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I have trouble following you here.

539   Surely of $600,000 that you invested in 101.9, a huge part can be transferred even if you get 94.5. It's not as if it's all lost, it's just that it has to be repurposed and you have to renegotiate, et cetera.

540   MR. E. TORRES: Well, again, you know, an additional brief is going to cost us an additional $30,000.

541   The guitars, I mean we can ship them back to Korea, but I don't think we can -- they are all decaled and laminated. So the guitars are what DAWG-FM, 101.9. So that's $100,000 that, you know, I mean, I don't know how we --

542   THE CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that when the Minister sent the thing back to us.

543   MR. E. TORRES: No, but again, we needed to get that order in when the cycle was -- when the manufacturing cycle was in. So that was a commitment that we made expecting that we would launch September of 2010, this year, right.

544   Our target was to have a great launch promotion for September the 1st ratings period.

545   THE CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned delay and obviously you should know if, on the theoretical assumption you get 94.5 you shouldn't be delayed, but surely that's something we could control. We could provide that in effect the others can't launch until you have got all the requisite approvals to go. We could make them interdependent.

546   MR. E. TORRES: I'm sure you could.

547   The one thing, though, I haven't -- and I can't really answer that question without seeing the new conditions that Astral is going to place, but certainly it's not just the delay that's the problem there, it's the rest of the conditions. I mean to find another available frequency, if there is any event of an interference, I don't think that that's reasonable -- you know, reasonable as they say.

548   THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the point you just made to my colleague regarding 94.5, you based everything on 101.9 rather than 94.5.

549   The maps which you furnished just this morning, I look at page 3 which has 101.9 and I look at page 4 which has 94.5, I mean unless I am blind 94.5 is bigger and actually picks up the West End which you say is so crucial, like you mentioned the Corel Centre, et cetera. It is clearly within 94.5 and a whole lot more.

550   So other than the sunk costs I fail to see where the disadvantage is, especially given what Vice Chairman Katz said.

551   You should have a far easier time financing it because the potential is so much greater on 94.5.

552   MR. E. TORRES: Well, and again, I don't want to belabour our position, but our business plan, all of the steps that we have taken, they are all based on 101.9.

553   94.5 is better, 99.7, as Astral has engineered it, is also better. We just want what we applied for. You know, when we did the tests on 94.5, yes, it does show that has a nicer contour, but we don't want to be tied to another commercial interest.

554   THE CHAIRPERSON: And that's really where the rubber hits the road.

555   MR. E. TORRES: Well, I mean --

556   THE CHAIRPERSON: You are afraid that they will use the conditions in order to squeeze you if you are too successful.

557   Is that what it boils down to?

558   MR. E. TORRES: Absolutely.

559   You know, they are controlling -- they are the gatekeeper. So, you know, you could give them a condition, but what is to stop them from implementing -- from renegotiating lease rates that are exorbitant? What's to stop them from implementing HD radio, you know.

560   We need to be a standalone independent so we can compete with Astral and we can compete with all the players on a level playing field. You know, to tie us to them if --

561   THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are not leasing anything from them?

562   MR. E. TORRES: No, leasing -- but, you know, the 94.5, it's not just Astral that we have to deal with now, now we have to deal with CBC, who is the ultimate landlord on the tower, and we have to deal with NewCap, all right.

563   NewCap is another competing interest in this. CBC intervened against our application, all right.

564   So we now have to deal with two other entities that we are going to go head-to-head with.

565   THE CHAIRPERSON: But surely you heard the CBC this morning. You were in the room, you heard them testify.

566   MR. E. TORRES: Yes.

567   THE CHAIRPERSON: They have basically said: We will cooperate. We will not oppose. We will allow this on the tower and we do not see of any problem either with the antenna or the tower of putting somebody on there.

568   I mean, they couldn't have been more clear.

569   MR. E. TORRES: No. But still, it doesn't change the fact that they have intervened against us.

570   I mean you talk to anyone in this room and they will tell you that dealing with the CBC is difficult at best.

571   So we have engineered this plan so that we don't have to deal with the CBC and we don't have to deal with NewCap and we think that the community interest, which has a strong backing and can make those negotiations proceed a lot more easily than we would be able to, that they are the perfect choice to put on that frequency.

572   THE CHAIRPERSON: I hear you very clearly that you want 101.9.

573   MR. E. TORRES: Good.

--- Laughter

574   THE CHAIRPERSON: But I also hear you clearly saying, you know, if pushed you would rather take 94.5 then nothing.

575   MR. E. TORRES: Absolutely.

576   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

577   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Mr. Chairman?

578   THE CHAIRPERSON; Yes, Len.

579   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Could I just come back to one question?

580   You finance your business plan based on 101.9, we have all heard that. If you are awarded a different frequency you would have to go back to your financiers, your bankers. In this day and age would you be financable or would you be sitting with a licence and no financing?

581   MR. E. TORRES: I think that the terms of our financing would certainly change, but, again, we would have to start from square one with the bank. We would have to give them brand new financials.

582   What happened, again, on the financing side -- not to get off topic, but part of the critical path on Day 1 was to establish negotiations with our commercial bankers, and we are on record as saying this. Actually, the day that the Order in Council came down was the day that we were getting together to sign the documents for the financing.

583   So that was the day, the banker was on his way up, and we said, "You know what? You had better stay on Bay Street."

584   He said, "The financing is there for when you get re-licensed."

585   Again, there is a huge legal cost involved in getting that financing approved. There is a lot of work with the bank. That all will be undone, I fear, if we get licensed on another radio station.

586   If we go back and say that 101.9 is good, here is our business plan, then tomorrow we could be on Day 46.

587   But that is not going to be the case if we have to provide new financials, provide new contour maps, and restate the case with the bank.

588   And it could, certainly in this climate, be a lot harder.

589   COMMISSIONER KATZ: You said that you were shooting for a September 2010 turn-on if everything hadn't changed.

590   MR. E. TORRES: 2009. Pardon me, Commissioner.


592   If you were awarded a different licence, what would your new turn-on date be?

593   MR. E. TORRES: That is a very good question. Our initial interest in that December date was around the ratings. We wanted to make sure that we were on the air for that first ratings period.

594   So it was going to be a bit of a rush to make that, because that would have meant that, I think, from the licensing -- August to September -- it would have been about 13 months.

595   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Could I ask you to think about it and file that with us, as well, because that may be a confidential issue from your perspective.

596   MR. F. TORRES: Absolutely.

597   I think the difficulty in answering that is that, if we are licensed on 94.5, for example, we have very little control over the timeline. The timeline, in our opinion, becomes dependent on at least two, if not three other players.

598   That 45 day amount of progress that we were able to do was because the core of the team, which you see here, met every day and moved the plan forward. There is no way we can do that if we are dependent on second, third and fourth parties.

599   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Could I ask you to file with us what the interdependencies would be if you were given 94.5, and how that would impact your timelines?

600   MR. E. TORRES: Yes, we will.

601   THE CHAIRPERSON: And a best-estimate target date.

602   Michel...

603   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Thank you.

604   My question is directed to your engineering consultant. I heard Mr. Sadoun say that in order to grow the power to 8,000 watts, a change will have to be made in the antenna that Newcap owns.

605   Are there other things that should also be done before being able to grow the power from 2,000 to 8,000 watts?

606   MR. SADOUN: Thank you for that question.

607   Actually, the Newcap antenna will not have to be redesigned. We will have to reuse another antenna, somewhere else on the tower.

608   We will have to find a spot on the tower to put a panel or a set of panels that would allow the directivity necessary to protect other stations and give coverage to Ottawa.

609   So it would have to be somewhere else on the tower.

610   And there is a possibility of finding space, just as Mr. Marcotte said earlier this morning. Some antennas could be moved around in certain areas, and space could be found on the south side -- on the south face of the tower.

611   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: However, I don't think that is something that he is contemplating.

612   MR. SADOUN: No, I don't think so. It would be onerous.

613   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: It would be onerous.

614   Now, if the power was increased to 8,000 watts, would that increase the territory served, or would it only increase the power into the contour that you projected, or that you measured in doing the tests?

615   MR. SADOUN: Going from 2,000 to 8,000 is four times the power, which means that it's approximately two times the distance increase of the coverage.

616   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: So it would almost equate to a 100,000-watt station?

617   MR. SADOUN: It would almost equate to a B --

618   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: A B-type station.

619   MR. SADOUN: Yes.

620   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: And the panels that you are talking about, will they be higher or lower than the actual SIRA antenna?

621   MR. SADOUN: There could be a space between the SIRA antenna and the Channel 6 station. That would be, roughly, I believe, a bit lower than the present location of the SIRA.

622   Or, there would be a place, roughly, around 30 metres, if parabolic antennas could be moved around on the tower.

623   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Now, you also did some field tests, which were very fine. As a matter of fact, you used the ITU scale to measure.

624   What were the general conditions of the tests?

625   MR. SADOUN: The general conditions of the tests -- you mean the methodology or --

626   COMMISSIONERN ARPIN: I am more interested in the results, at the end of the day.

627   MR. SADOUN: The results of the tests, as I mentioned earlier during the presentation, were that, with a car radio, in 100 percent of the 47 tested locations, which were chosen in francophone markets as well as in the areas where we expected to have the worst interference from CIMF-FM, we found that the car radio was demodulating audio with better than a CCIR grade of 4, at 100 percent of the locations.

628   With respect to the two other types of radios, which were very low-cost radios, in the case of the alarm clock radio, a $30 radio basically, we were able to get 83 percent of the locations with 3 and better.

629   And with respect to the Walkman, which was the worst type of receiver, we were able to receive at roughly 70 percent of the locations.

630   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: I can see from the maps that we circulated this morning -- and I think you have them in front of you -- and I am using the fourth map, the last one. Your radio receiver tests are shown using a star.

631   Am I right to say that you mainly concentrated yourself with what is called downtown Ottawa?

632   MR. SADOUN: Yes, I concentrated myself in the primary contour of that station, and I also drove extensively within the secondary contour, which is not shown on this map, but the driven route that I took to measure the signal, with a spectrum analyzer, went beyond the primary contour area.

633   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: And the results were alike?

634   MR. SADOUN: The results that were listened to within the 54 dBu contour were 100 percent -- or, actually, 95 percent with a car radio.

635   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Three engineering firms worked on this project. Did you share information during the process?

636   MR. SADOUN: The information that we shared was with Astral Media, in the fact that we provided them with our own realistic coverage that we prepared for this test.

637   We also provided them with parameters to prepare the D.E.M. Allen & Associates brief.

638   And I also participated, in a way, at the on-air testing. I was there to ascertain that everything was according to spec.

639   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: And you were satisfied?

640   MR. SADOUN: Yes, I was.

641   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Thank you very much.

642   MR. SADOUN: Thank you.

643   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, those are our questions.

644   The undertakings that we asked you to deliver, Mr. Torres, could you do it in the same timeframe that Astral is going to give us its rewording on the conditions?

645   I think it is by the end of next week.

646   MR. E. TORRES: Yes, we will.

647   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

648   We will break for lunch, and we will resume at 1:15 p.m.

--- Upon recessing at 1209

--- Upon resuming at 1320

649   LE PRÉSIDENT : Allons-y.

650   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous entendrons maintenant le quatrième participant à l'ordre du jour, la Radio de la communauté francophone d'Ottawa, en vue d'obtenir une licence visant l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio FM communautaire de type B de langue française à Ottawa.

651   Monsieur Bradet comparaît pour RCFO, et il nous présentera ses collègues. Vous disposez de 15 minutes pour faire votre présentation.


652   M. BRADET : Merci.

653   Monsieur le Président, Madame et messieurs les Commissaires, je voudrais d'abord vous présenter mes collègues.

654   Maître Daniel Boivin, secrétaire-trésorier du conseil d'administration depuis quelques années avec nous.

655   And with us today also we have Kerry Pelser, Engineer, D.E.M. Allen and Associates.

656   In a spirit of cooperation, Astral has agreed to allow Kerry to assist our appearance today. Please note that Kerry's input will be limited only to the technical maps which were prepared for 94.5 MHz frequency in conjunction with Astral. We worked together doing that study and he is not in a position naturally to comment on general technical questions of a territorial nature.

657   Monsieur le Président, d'abord, je voudrais vous remercier et remercier le CRTC de nous donner l'opportunité de vous présenter notre point de vue sur la question à l'ordre du jour.

658   Par votre demande de faire une étude empirique de la fréquence 94,5 et sa portée, nous avons conclu que le CRTC voulait savoir si oui au non, il y a avait trois fréquences de disponibles dans la région, à savoir 99,7, 101,7 ou le 101,9, et le 94,5.

659   Nous croyons que les études faites par Frank Torres, Astral Media et la RCFO conjointement ont répondu dans l'affirmative. II y a, effectivement, trois fréquences FM qui peuvent être utilisées dans la région.

660   Je crois que c'est une excellente nouvelle. Nous voulons prendre cette occasion, d'ailleurs, pour remercier Frank Torres de nous avoir mis sur cette piste d'une troisième fréquence, et vous, Monsieur le Président, d'avoir pris une excellente décision de reporter la fin des audiences. Vous avez vu juste. Il fallait que toutes les possibilités soient clairement étudiées avant de rendre une décision.

661   Si trois fréquences sont disponibles, il nous faut donc commenter sur l'acceptabilité de 94,5 pour la RCFO et revoir ce que les requérants ont dit à ce sujet.

662   Les conclusions ont d'abord révélé que la fréquence 94,5 ne répondait pas aux besoins de la RCFO puisque le rayon de service était considérablement inférieur à la superficie qu'occupe la communauté francophone d'Ottawa, de l'est ontarien et de l'Outaouais québécois.

663   Cette conclusion s'appuie sur les performances de récepteurs FM commerciaux, telles qu'évaluées dans le rapport de « Second Adjacent Channel Interference Study of FM Broadcast Receiver » produit par Industrie Canada le 8 avril 2002.

664   M. BOIVIN : Le 94,5 en second adjacent d'une puissance de 2 kilowatts ne répond, malheureusement, absolument pas aux besoins de la communauté francophone ontarienne de plus de 250 000 personnes. Ces données sont confirmées par les analyses d'évaluation subjective de la qualité du signal selon l'échelle standard de l'UIT, dont les résultats ont été versés au dossier par trois requérantes, donc, Astral Media avec, conjointement, RCFO, et Frank Torres.

665   D'ailleurs, notre position est tout à fait conforme avec la communication que nous vous faisions parvenir le 11 mai dernier, et je cite :

« La RCFO réitère qu'à moins que les tests en cours déterminent que l'utilisation du 94,5 est équivalente ou meilleure que la fréquence 101,7 pour desservir la population francophone d'Ottawa et de l'est ontarien, la RCFO compte toujours conserver sa demande pour le canal 101,7. »

666   La RCFO a déposé le rapport d'analyse de l'ingénieur engagé conjointement par la RCFO et Astral.

667   La carte 43-2, à la page 9 de ce rapport -- c'est d'ailleurs la carte qui est sur les écrans dans le moment -- démontre les zones où le signal de 94,5 ne pourrait pas être capté en raison du brouillage. Les zones de brouillage sont démontrées en rouge et en jaune. Comme vous le constaterez à la révision de la carte, il existe des zones de brouillage considérable dans l'est de l'Ontario ou à l'est d'Ottawa, zone d'importance primaire dans l'auditoire visé par le projet de la RCFO. C'est le rouge sur la carte qui est présentée devant vous.

668   L'utilisation du 94,5 nécessite en plus l'utilisation d'une antenne située au Camp Fortune. Les paramètres de ceci ont été discutés par les intervenants avant nous ce matin. Une telle utilisation est beaucoup plus dispendieuse que l'utilisation d'une antenne située au centre-ville d'Ottawa. Ces frais additionnels représenteraient une augmentation significative des frais d'exploitation de la RCFO.

669   Ainsi, la combinaison d'une perte d'auditoire et d'une augmentation des frais d'exploitation fait en sorte que la fréquence 94,5 n'est pas une solution pour la RCFO.

670   Si cette fréquence ne répond pas aux besoins de la RCFO, elle répondrait cependant aux besoins de la firme Torres, de la proposition de Torres, selon le rapport d'étude qui a été déposé par YRH à l'effet que... qui conclut, et je cite :

« We conclude that channel 233 operated at the Test Station class B 1 parameters would be commercially viable and would meet the coverage requirements desired by Frank Torres (OBCI) for their Ottawa-Gatineau station. Indeed such a station would possibly have better coverage potential than the current Ottawa class A applications on channel 259 (99.7) and channel 270 (101.9). »

671   Comme vous le savez, Monsieur le Président, depuis le début, nous avons indiqué que nous désirons la fréquence 101,7. Lors de l'audience de mars dernier, nous avons indiqué clairement cette préférence. Nous avons indiqué que nous suivrions avec intérêt un examen plus complet du second adjacent 94,5. C'est pourquoi, d'ailleurs, nous avons contribué financièrement à l'étude effectuée par Spectrum Experts pour Astral Media et la RCFO.

672   Nous sommes conscients que certains intervenants comparaissent aujourd'hui pour discuter de la question de l'acceptation des seconds adjacents comme nouvelle approche générale pour la radiodiffusion au Canada.

673   La RCFO ne souhaite pas faire des représentations sur l'impact que pourrait avoir une telle décision pour les radiodiffuseurs à la grandeur du pays. Dans le cadre de la présente audience, par contre, il n'est pas nécessaire de considérer tous les problèmes théoriques qui pourraient survenir avec cette approche dans d'autres marchés autres que celui d'Ottawa-Gatineau.

674   Dans la situation particulière du marché d'Ottawa-Gatineau, l'utilisation du second adjacent sur 94,5 permet de répondre a un besoin sans créer de difficultés aux stations existantes. Pour cette raison, l'utilisation du second adjacent devrait être permise dans la présente situation, remettant un débat théorique à un autre temps et un autre forum sur l'utilisation plus générale du second adjacent.

675   Si je peux me permettre de sortir du texte, la RCFO est tout à fait d'accord avec ce qui a été exprimé plus tôt ce matin sur la question que l'utilisation d'un second adjacent dans le contexte du marché présent pourrait être considérée comme une exception.

676   M. BRADET : Le fait qu'une troisième station FM est maintenant possible dans la région ne signifie pas que des permis d'exploitation soient automatiquement accordés à la RCFO, Astral et Torres. À ce sujet, nous aimerions à ce moment-ci et pour assurer qu'il n'y ait pas d'ambiguïté dans la position de la RCFO, faire les commentaires suivants.

677   Le 22 février dernier, Frank Torres déposait auprès du CRTC une soumission qui déclarait au paragraphe 10c :

« The Commission could issue a call for French-language applications subsequent to this hearing. In addition to the FM frequency we have identified, there are also AM frequencies available. »

678   La RCFO s'objecte à toute suggestion que le projet de la communauté franco-ontarienne soit restreint à une station sur 94,5, qui, par surcroît, ne répondrait pas aux besoins exprimés par la communauté. Quant à la question de fréquences sur la bande AM, nous réitérons notre position d'avril dernier, c'est inacceptable pour la population francophone d'Ottawa et de la région de l'est de l'Ontario.

679   Lors de l'audience du mois d'avril, Monsieur le Président nous faisait part que le projet de la RCFO, et je cite :

« ...est rempli de rêves et de passion, mais ça manque un peu de particularité. »

680   Nous sommes très heureux que la passion de la communauté pour ce projet était évidente lors de notre présentation. Quant au manque de particularité, nous sommes confiants que nous avons su répondre aux demandes d'information supplémentaires et avons confirmé le sérieux et la solidité de notre projet.

681   Vous nous avez demandé de vous fournir plus de détails sur le plan financier de notre demande.

682   En réponse, nous avons précisé nos chiffres et avons confirmé avec l'ARC du Canada que notre approche est conforme à l'approche des stations radiophoniques communautaires profitables ailleurs au pays. Nous sommes confiants que les chiffres sont exacts et réalistes pour mettre sur pied cette station et en assurer sa pérennité.

683   L'étude de marché soumise avec la présentation initiale de 2007, il y a bientôt deux ans, révèle que, une fois les ajustements faits, considérant la nature communautaire du projet de la RCFO, les données se comparent très favorablement avec l'étude présentée par Astral Media.

684   Deux, vous nous avez demandé d'être plus précis quant aux experts qui nous aideront au démarrage.

685   Nous avons confirmé la participation à notre projet de sept professionnels de l'industrie qui ont ensemble plus de 125 années d'expérience dans la radiodiffusion et les communications médiatiques, d'ancien vice-président de Radio-Canada à producteur d'émissions radiophoniques, une expérience variée et profonde.

686   Vous nous avez demandé d'être plus précis quant aux bénévoles -- c'est monsieur Arpin qui demandait ça, je pense -- qui veulent faire partie de notre équipe.

687   Nous vous avons remis au-delà de 150 noms de personnes se portant volontaires, bénévoles, dans absolument tous les secteurs de fonctionnement d'une station radiophonique. Il est intéressant de noter que plus de 60 pour cent des bénévoles que nous avons viennent de l'Ontario et 40 pour cent de l'Outaouais, une belle indication que tous les francophones de la région sont désireux de voir la RCFO devenir une réalité.

688   Vous nous avez demandé aussi de vous faire part de quelques ententes avec des organismes en prévision de la mise en place de la station.

689   Nous vous avons fourni quatre de ces ententes. Ce n'est qu'un début qui sera enrichi dès que nous aurons un permis d'exploitation.

690   Beaucoup plus qu'un simple rêve, nous croyons que le projet de la RCFO en est un qui s'appuie sur un conseil d'administration solide, se fiant à des professionnels et des experts dont l'expérience ne fait aucun doute et un impressionnant bassin de bénévoles.

691   Monsieur le Président, Madame et messieurs les Commissaires, la communauté que nous représentons entend maintenir sa passion et son acharnement afin de s'assurer du succès de ce projet, autant du point de vue financier que des aspects de programmation et de diffusion.

692   Le projet de la RCFO ajoutera au marché de la radiodiffusion de la région d'Ottawa-Gatineau un élément qui manque présentement.

693   Le projet de la RCFO est tout à fait conforme aux exigences du gouverneur en conseil de s'assurer du respect des minorités linguistiques dans l'attribution de nouveaux permis d'exploitation.

694   Dans un projet qui rassemblera les francophones des deux rives de l'Outaouais, la RCFO donnera à la communauté franco-ontarienne une voix qu'elle n'a pas, un outil précieux pour assurer sa survie et sa croissance.

695   Comme toujours, nous sommes prêts à répondre à vos questions, Monsieur le Président.

696   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci pour votre présentation. Je suis heureux de comprendre que vous avez fourni les détails que nous avons demandés sur votre projet.

697   Maintenant, ici aujourd'hui, on se concentre seulement sur la question de 94,5. Vous avez vu la soumission de Frank Torres?

698   M. BRADET : Oui.

699   LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous étiez ici quand il était... vous avez écouté ce matin sa présentation.

700   J'aimerais que vous regardiez la page 2 de sa lettre du 26 mai. Vous avez ça?

701   M. BRADET : Le 26 mai?

702   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Secrétaire, voulez-vous montrer ça à monsieur Bradet, s'il vous plaît?

--- Pause

703   M. BRADET : O.K. D'accord. Je l'ai dans mon livre, mais je n'ai pas eu le temps de...

704   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K.?

705   M. BRADET : Oui.

706   LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous refusez la 94,5 parce que vous dites que la 101,7 est plus bonne pour vous. Je ne comprends pas ça du tout. En vue de ces chiffres-là, ça démontre qu'avec 94,5 vous pouvez atteindre un niveau de 80 000 personnes qui sont de langue française. Avec 101,7 ou ,9, c'est 40 000.

707   Pourquoi vous refusez une fréquence qui vous donne la capacité de doubler l'audience de votre station? Pour moi, c'est incompréhensible.

708   M. BRADET : D'accord. Monsieur Boivin va répondre.

709   M. BOIVIN : Si vous me permettez, l'étude de monsieur Torres et l'étude que nous avons déposée démontrent une réalité très différente. Le brouillage que vous voyez sur la carte qui est présentement devant vous enlève un élément significatif de la communauté francophone qui pourrait être rejointe par le signal de 94,5.

710   Si on regarde le parcours... je le mets à l'écran. À l'écran présentement est l'équivalent des études que vous avez déposées. Donc, c'est le parcours théorique du signal 94,5, avec, en vert, la réception à 3 microvolts par mètre, et puis, en bleu, la réception un peu moins bonne. Ça, c'est le théorique. Le théorique rejoint beaucoup de monde.

711   Quand on voit, par contre, sur la page suivante, ça, c'est le... ce qui démontre en jaune et en rouge ce qui serait bloqué par le brouillage sur 94,5, il y a une diminution significative du nombre de personnes qui peut rejoint avec le signal 94,5. Donc, ça serait une diminution de 27 pour cent de l'auditoire ontarien.

712   On a demandé à notre ingénieur hier de nous donner les chiffres qui correspondent aux zones qui sont démontrées ici. Si on regarde ce qui est éliminé comme population francophone dans les zones rouges et jaunes -- puis la population francophone qui est éliminée, je dois dire, elle est plus dans la zone rouge, elle est plus à l'est d'Ottawa qu'à l'ouest -- c'est une diminution, comme je le disais, de 27 pour cent, donc, d'un bassin de gens qui ont connaissance du français de 229 640, de 230 000.

713   On descend, avec l'interférence, à un bassin de 169 000. Donc, c'est 27 pour cent de notre auditoire franco-ontarien qui ne pourrait pas recevoir le signal à cause du brouillage.

714   Quand on regarde la population totale francophone dans la région -- donc, si on ne se limite pas seulement à la population ontarienne -- on passe d'un bassin de 444 000 francophones à 305 000 francophones ou 306 000 francophones. Donc, c'est une perte de 32 pour cent de l'auditoire.

715   Donc, quand on regarde la population qui ne pourrait pas recevoir le signal sur 94,5, c'est une perte significative.

716   Si on avait, avec 94,5, le bassin potentiel, ça serait moins un problème, mais c'est le brouillage qui fait en sorte que 94,5 est...

717   LE PRÉSIDENT : Est-ce que vous disputez les chiffres dans le paragraphe 11, qui est le canal 94,5 va être capable d'être reçu par presque deux fois le nombre de francophones...

718   M. BRADET : Monsieur le Président, ce que vous n'avez pas dans ce tableau-là, c'est 101,7.

719   LE PRÉSIDENT : Pardon?

720   M. BRADET : Vous n'avez pas 101,7 là-dedans là.

721   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

722   M. BRADET : Non. C'est 101,9. Et 101,7 va beaucoup plus à l'est. Et si vous aviez 101,7, notre population francophone grandirait énormément. C'est ça le problème là.

723   Quand vous regardez le contour de 94,5 et le contour de 101,9, vous réalisez que c'est un contour circulaire qui va jusqu'à Kanata et plus. Nous, notre contour de 101,7, il est elliptique à partir de Carling ou à peu près et vers l'est, et c'est là qu'on retrouve le plus grand nombre de francophones.

724   Alors, les chiffres ici sont un peu... ils nous dirigent sur une mauvaise piste. Ce n'est pas... c'est des oranges et des pommes là.

725   LE PRÉSIDENT : L'analyse de YRH qui a été fournie ce matin...

726   M. BRADET : Oui.

727   LE PRÉSIDENT : dernière page, vous avez ça?

--- Pause

728   LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la Secrétaire...

729   M. BRADET : Oui. Quelle page?

730   LE PRÉSIDENT : La dernière page.

731   M. BRADET : O.K. Celle-là ici. Oui. Oui.

732   LE PRÉSIDENT : Les chiffres là, la dernière colonne dit : RCFO 101,7...

733   M. BRADET : Ça n'a pas de bon sens.

734   LE PRÉSIDENT : French, on dit 10 000, English...

735   Est-ce que vous êtes d'accord avec ces chiffres-là?

736   M. BRADET : Non. Non.

737   LE PRÉSIDENT : Expliquez-moi.

738   M. BRADET : On n'est pas d'accord parce que... et on va revenir là-dessus un moment donné là. Je n'ai pas le document avec moi. Mais le 10 599 là, c'est tout à fait impossible là sans interférence. Entendons-nous, c'est impossible là.

739   LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est pour cette raison que je pose la question. Quel est le chiffre, selon vous, qui devrait être là?

740   M. BRADET : Je ne l'ai pas, mais je vais vous le donner. Je ne l'ai pas, mais je vais vous le fournir.


742   M. BRADET : Oui, je vais vous le fournir.

743   LE PRÉSIDENT : Donnez-moi...

744   M. BRADET : Oui.

745   LE PRÉSIDENT : ...le chiffre des personnes que vous croyez qui pourraient obtenir le signal de 101,7...

746   M. BRADET : D'accord.

747   LE PRÉSIDENT : ...des francophones et des anglophones.

748   M. BRADET : On vous revient là-dessus.

749   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Michel?

750   M. BRADET : On vous revient là-dessus. Oui.

751   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Le 101,7...

752   M. BRADET : Oui.

753   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...n'est pas, au moment où on se parle, accepté par le ministère de l'Industrie. Vous n'avez pas le certificat, et les indications que le Conseil dispose, et que vous-même vous disposez puisque Industrie Canada vous a fait parvenir la même correspondance, disent qu'il ne sera jamais certifié.

754   En d'autres mots, alors que tous ceux qui ont demandé pour le 101,9 ont obtenu l'acceptation de leur devis technique, et dans votre cas, à 101,7, vous n'avez pas encore la certification, et les commentaires obtenus sont à l'effet que vous ne pourrez pas l'avoir. Il y a des motifs que le ministère a indiqués et qui font en sorte que l'utilisation de cette fréquence-là ne sera pas autorisée.

755   Donc, est-ce qu'on parle ici de manière purement théorique, alors qu'on cherche une solution pratique?

756   M. BRADET : Oui. Oui. Voici, Monsieur Arpin : Le seul empêchement pour avoir le certificat à ce moment-ci, c'est CHIP-FM. CHIP-FM actuellement a une licence de 50 000 watts possibles. Ils diffusent maintenant à 10 000 watts. Ils ont un grand total de 16 mois ou 18 mois pour se rendre à 50 000. Les chances qu'ils se rendent à 50 000 en 16 mois et les coûts que ça entraîne sont très minimes, d'une part.

757   D'autre part, nous avons communiqué avec Industrie Canada, et nous avons copié le CRTC, en lui disant que si on avait une licence à 101,7 et si CHIP augmentait à 50 000, nous serions prêts d'accepter une licence conditionnelle de redresser notre signal si besoin il y a pour s'assurer qu'il n'y ait aucune interférence. Alors, je pense que c'est un.

758   La deuxième chose que je voudrais ajouter pour monsieur le président tout à l'heure, quelle est la différence entre 101,9 puis 101,7, la très grande différence, et on l'a dit, je pense, au mois de mars, c'est la suivante.

759   C'est que nous, on vous a dit que dans une deuxième phase... et je pense c'est vous, Monsieur Arpin, qui avait dit, oui, c'est votre deuxième phase, puis on a répondu oui à ça. Dans une deuxième phase, on aimerait être capable de mettre un répétiteur pour aller dans l'est. Avec 101,9, il est impossible de mettre de répétiteur parce que 101,9 rentrerait en conflit avec une station radiophonique à Hawkesbury, mais pas 101,7.

760   Alors, c'est une des raisons pourquoi on a choisi 101,7, pour s'assurer qu'on couvre vraiment toute la population qu'on veut. Et on ne regarde pas... le chiffre de 588 000 versus un chiffre de 400 000, si on était une station commerciale, on réalise que plus on a de clients, mieux c'est. Mais notre clientèle est tellement précise -- ce sont les francophones -- qu'on ait une clientèle globale de 400 000 au lieu de 500 000, c'est moins important pour nous. Cependant, si on a 200 000 ou 150 000 de nos francophones, ça, c'est très important.

761   Alors, encore une fois, c'est un peu trompeur pour nous d'essayer de vous convaincre que 500 000 est mieux que 400 000 ou 400 000 est mieux que 500 000. Ce n'est pas notre cible à nous autres. On n'est pas commercial là.

762   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, quand vous me dites que, effectivement, dans les 16 prochains mois, CHIP pourra obtenir l'autorisation d'augmenter sa puissance...

763   M. BRADET : À 50 000.

764   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...à 50 000, compte tenu que le ministère de l'Industrie ne veut pas certifier votre projet à 101,7, en d'autres mots, ce que vous dites au Conseil, c'est que vous ne pensez pas pouvoir commencer à construire votre station à 101,7 avant au moins 16 mois?

765   M. BRADET : Non. Je pense qu'on peut construire une station quand même, et on peut avoir notre radiodiffusion quand même. L'engagement, c'est qu'on réduirait notre pouvoir si besoin il y a... si besoin il y a, parce qu'on peut avoir... je pense qu'on avait demandé 3,7... 3,5 kilowatts, si je ne me trompe pas. Alors, si une étude nous exigeait de réduire à 3,0 au lieu de 3,5 pour assurer qu'il n'y ait absolument rien, bien, on réduira, et je pense que ça, c'est possible selon les ingénieurs à qui on a parlé.

766   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, est-ce que c'est des discussions que vos ingénieurs ont eues avec Industrie Canada?

767   M. BRADET : Exactement.

768   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Et comment ça se fait que la certification, on ne l'a pas sur la base de ces discussions-là?

769   M. BRADET : Parce que c'est un peu là... comment je pourrais dire? C'est un peu comme the chicken and the egg là.

770   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui, la poule et l'oeuf.

771   M. BRADET : La poule et l'oeuf. C'est ça le principe. Ils disent, bien, vous n'avez pas de licence; ça se peut qu'eux autres augmentent à 50; ils ne sont pas encore là; s'ils n'augmentent pas, c'est correct; mais... Daniel, aide-moi.

772   Je ne sais pas quoi vous répondre là-dessus, sauf les faits, et les faits, c'est qu'on n'a pas encore la permission. Par contre, on a établi avec, de façon... on s'est engagé à faire... de la même façon que... de la même façon, je pense, qu'Astral dit, si quelqu'un utilise 94,5, il y a deux conditions. Bien, qu'on nous impose la condition. On est déjà d'accord avec une condition de restriction de wattage, si je peux utiliser, ou de force de la station envers CHIP si jamais ils se rendent à 50 000. Alors, c'est un peu le même... il y a un parallèle là de conditions.

773   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, ce matin, puis je pense que le cahier... je vois devant monsieur Boivin le cahier rouge là.

774   M. BRADET : Oui. Oui.

775   CONSEILLER ARPIN : On voit différentes cartes.

776   M. BRADET : Oui.

777   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Si je prends la carte numéro 2, on voit que c'est la carte qui devrait être comparable à la carte que votre ingénieur a préparée et qui se trouve à l'écran présentement.

778   M. BRADET : Oui.

779   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, je note quand même qu'il y a des distinctions. Je l'ai aussi à la portée de la main là. Évidemment, je n'ai pas la même taille de carte là, puis je n'ai pas les repères géographiques de la même manière, mais je vois quand même que le signal prévisible se dirige vers Embrun, vers Sarsfield, couvre Rockland de manière adéquate là.

780   Puis quand je regarde la carte numéro 4, parce que c'est sur celle-là que je veux vous amener...

781   M. BRADET : Oui.

782   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...qui est celle que le personnel du Conseil a préparée à partir des diverses données de mesures qui ont été faites par les trois firmes d'ingénieurs qui ont travaillé sur ce dossier-là.

783   Or, les cercles oranges sont les mesures que Spectrum Experts a faites dans le territoire, et je note qu'il est allé faire des mesures à Bourget, à Casselman, donc, même à l'extérieur de la couverture prévisible qui découle des logiciels utilisés par le ministère, parce que, encore là, il y a des éléments de théorie, hein, parce qu'on voit très bien que la carte préparée par votre ingénieur dit, potentiel de brouillage à 9,1 mètres. C'est une mesure théorique parce que, si j'ai bien compris, l'antenne de SIRA qui a été testée, elle est à 34 mètres...

784   M. BRADET : Oui.

785   CONSEILLER ARPIN : non à 9,1. Mais 9,1, c'est la mesure agréée par les ingénieurs à travers l'Amérique du Nord pour développer des mesures comparatives. Donc, je vois très bien que la carte de prévisibilité, elle montre que, bon... et je vois que votre ingénieur est allé faire des mesures à l'extérieur même de cette...

786   Savez-vous quels sont les résultats qu'il a obtenus, notamment, à Casselman puis à Bourget?

787   M. BRADET : Oui.

788   M. BOIVIN : Si on regarde...

789   M. BRADET : Le document que vous envoyez le 3 juin.

790   M. BOIVIN : Les pages ne sont pas numérotées, mais le tableau à la quatrième page, c'est la dernière page...

791   M. BRADET : Avant l'étude Spectrum.

792   M. BOIVIN : ...avant les tableaux. Si on regarde les données qui ont été prises à Casselman, il n'y en a pas beaucoup.

793   M. BRADET : La voiture, c'est 4. Les autres, c'est 0 ou 1. Alors, si je ne suis pas dans une grosse voiture, on ne pourra jamais entendre 94,5 à Casselman. Ça, c'est l'étude, c'est les résultats. Et à Bourget la même chose, parce que vous avez demandé ces deux places-là.

794   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui. Et puis, si je reviens à la carte que vous aviez faite à 101,7 à l'origine là...

795   M. BRADET : M'hmm.

796   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Quand je regarde cette carte-là, celle qu'on avait au moment de la première audience, vous ne vous rendiez même pas à Casselman, alors que, aujourd'hui, vous avez quand même un... vous ne vous rendiez même pas à Embrun, même pas à Limoges, avec 101,7.

797   M. BRADET : Écoutez, tout ce que je vous dis là, c'est que...

798   CONSEILLER ARPIN : J'ai compris que vous disiez, on ira implanter un réémetteur.

799   M. BRADET : Oui. Et c'est ça qu'on a dit qu'on ferait parce que notre population première est les francophones de ce coin-là, et on n'est pas capable de se payer une station de 10 000 watts. D'ailleurs, il n'y aurait pas de possibilité d'une station de 10 000 watts.

800   Mais on prend ce qui serait disponible à 3 500 watts, si ne me trompe pas, et avec une station de 3 500 watts, on se rend assez loin, et dans un temps déterminé, on ferait un répétiteur qui nous permettrait, à ce moment-là, de tout couvrir la population qu'on veut couvrir, jusqu'à Alfred, et caetera, sans conflit avec Hawkesbury ou Cornwall.

801   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Et ça, c'est dans un délai de combien d'années que vous anticipez ça?

802   M. BRADET : On pensait, nous autres, à peu près un an et demi à deux ans après la mise en ondes de la première fréquence, la 3 500, parce que, quand même, il faut être raisonnable, une station communautaire, on ne roule pas dans l'argent. Alors, il va falloir être quand même raisonnable dans les plans d'expansion qu'on va avoir.

803   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Cependant, votre projet n'est pas conditionnel et ne fait pas partie de l'étude que l'on fait présentement et que l'on a fait depuis quelques mois, avec plusieurs... ça commence à...

804   M. BRADET : M'hmm.

805   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Si on remonte au dépôt de la demande originale...

806   M. BRADET : Oui.

807   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...avec tous les retards et tout, ça demeure encore un élément théorique, ça. Enfin, c'est conditionnel à du financement. C'est conditionnel à ce que les fréquences soient disponibles à ce moment-là.

808   M. BRADET : Je pense qu'avec la population qu'on vise, d'ailleurs, dans la première partie de notre projet, si on peut appeler ça de cette façon-là, c'est quand même le gros de la population francophone qu'on recherche -- il ne faut pas se méprendre de ce côté-là -- et on serait capable de vivre très bien.

809   Pour revenir un peu à ce que monsieur le président, tout à l'heure, disait, pourquoi pas 94,5? Nous, si on a 101,7, ça va nous coûter à peu près 8 000 dollars pour une antenne à Ottawa, à peu près 8 000 dollars pour un émetteur. Si on va à Camp Fortune, vous devez multiplier ce prix-là annuellement entre huit et 10 fois plus cher, entre 70 000 et 80 000 dollars par année... par année.

810   Alors, si on veut écraser la radio communautaire, c'est un moyen formidable pour le faire, parce que, à 80 000 dollars pour avoir une location d'antenne, ça va nous écraser. Et ça, ce n'est pas des chiffres que j'invente. Vous pourriez demander à Radio-Canada. C'est le coût courant de quelqu'un qui veut avoir de l'espace là-bas. Un.

811   Et deux, les coûts d'installation sont aussi énormes, et nous, comme radio communautaire, ça va être difficile. Naturellement que vous pourriez dire, vous avez 94,5, mais il ne faut pas que ça soit un cadeau grec là. Il ne faut pas que ça soit quelque chose qu'on ne sera pas capable de mettre en oeuvre, parce que ça va devenir très lourd comme poids. Je ne dis pas que c'est impossible, mais pour nous, ça serait une demande à la communauté qui deviendrait un fardeau considérable.

812   CONSEILLER ARPIN : En fait, je pense que c'est un élément important que vous divulguiez là, parce que personne ne l'a mis en évidence...

813   M. BRADET : Oui.

814   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...mais je ne suis pas sans savoir que c'est probablement fondé, basé sur des expériences antérieures.

815   M. BRADET : C'est ça.

816   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Mais quand même, évidemment, les différentes parties auront l'occasion de commenter...

817   M. BRADET : Oui. Oui.

818   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...sur cette question au moment de la réplique, parce que c'est évident que c'est un élément...

819   M. BRADET : Important.

820   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...important de l'analyse.

--- Pause

821   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je pense que les chiffres que vous avez donnés sont probablement réalistes, mais est-ce que vous avez de la documentation qui soutient cette affirmation-là?

822   M. BRADET : Des chiffres monétaires?


824   M. BRADET : Je vais vous dire, on a discuté avec différentes personnes qui se spécialisent dans ce domaine-là, entre autres, monsieur François Gauthier, notre spécialiste des communications. J'ai eu des discussions informelles aujourd'hui.

825   Vous pourrez poser la question aux représentants de Radio-Canada, par exemple, qui pourront vous informer, en général, de ce genre de chose-là.

826   Ces deux coûts inhérents annuels, le coût de location d'espace sur un tel emplacement, ça l'a une valeur commerciale importante, et vous l'avez presque dit tout à l'heure, vous n'êtes pas très surpris là. Moi, j'étais surpris parce que je ne suis pas dans le métier, mais ceux qui sont dans le métier disent, bien, c'est à peu près normal, ça, Lucien. Bien oui, mais écoutez là, 8 000 dollars à 70 000 dollars là, c'est une façon de s'assurer que ça ne démarre pas.

827   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Quand j'ai réfléchi à haute voix là, je n'ai pas réfléchi à partir des données de l'Outaouais mais des données que je connais du Mont-Royal.

828   M. BRADET : Bien, Ottawa, c'est cher aussi là. Je peux vous assurer que c'est cher. Lorsqu'il n'y a pas beaucoup de place, hein, c'est un peu le principe.

829   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Il y a une équation d'offre et de demande, c'est sûr.

830   M. BRADET : D'accord. D'accord.

831   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je reviens au 101,7.

832   M. BRADET : Oui.

833   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Le président vous a demandé de déposer des chiffres. Pouvez-vous, à la même occasion, aussi nous dire à partir de quelle base de données vous allez tirer ces chiffres-là...

834   M. BRADET : D'accord.

835   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...pour qu'on soit en mesure de comparer ou de contre-vérifier...

836   M. BRADET : Parfait!

837   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...s'il y a lieu, parce que c'est important d'avoir la capacité de faire la contre-vérification?

838   M. BRADET : D'accord.

839   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, si le Conseil concluait, en rendant sa décision, parce que vous avez entendu monsieur Torres ce matin dire que lui, il tenait absolument à avoir le 101,9. Il a déjà pris des engagements par rapport à des fournisseurs. Ses échéanciers sont déjà faits. Si on le recule en arrière, on le recule de plusieurs mois, alors qu'il est arrêté au 45e jour. C'est un peu ce qu'il nous disait.

840   Je ne sais pas si...

841   M. BRADET : C'est difficile à commenter, Monsieur le Commissaire, sauf que n'étant pas dans le monde des affaires mais connaissant un peu le monde des affaires, moi, j'avais toujours cru que lorsqu'il y a des décisions comme celles que vous avez prises et qu'il y a une période d'appel de 45 jours, avant d'engager des fonds, je pense qu'en principe, un homme d'affaires averti ou une femme d'affaires avertie s'assure de ne pas signer des contrats et de ne pas engager des dépenses énormes.

842   Moi, je suis très peiné parce que Torres a engagé des dépenses, mais qu'est-ce que vous voulez que je vous dise? Ils ont engagé des dépenses, et, malheureusement, la période d'appel n'était pas terminée, et on ne savait pas qu'est-ce qui se passerait. Nous aussi, on avait eu des sollicitations de gens qui voulaient qu'on signe des contrats pour des antennes, mais on a dit, non, non, on ne peut pas, on n'a pas encore la décision finale.

843   Alors, c'est un peu les aléas de faire des affaires, hein! Est-ce qu'on devrait, nous, être pénalisés, comme RCFO, parce que quelqu'un a acheté des guitares là? Écoutez là, ça me fait de la peine, moi là, mais je ne veux pas être pénalisé pour ça.

844   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Maintenant, si le Conseil dans sa sagesse octroyait la licence à Astral à la fréquence qu'ils ont demandée, à Torres à la fréquence qu'il a demandée, et qu'il déclarait qu'il reste une fréquence... il est convaincu qu'il reste une fréquence disponible dans le marché d'Ottawa et qu'il serait prêt à octroyer une licence à la RCFO, conditionnelle à ce qu'ils déposent un mémoire technique au ministère de l'Industrie et qu'il obtienne les autorisations requises par rapport à ça, si c'était ça la décision, qu'est-ce que le regroupement de la radio francophone de l'Outaouais ferait?

845   M. BRADET : Je pense que la minorité francophone de l'Ontario serait très désappointée. Je pense que la minorité dirait peut-être, on ne peut pas. Elle dirait peut-être aussi... parce qu'on représente la communauté, on leur parlerait, c'est certain. On ne prendrait pas la décision seul, parce qu'on est un mouvement communautaire.

846   Je pense qu'elle dirait aussi, c'est de donner un fardeau à la minorité, qui est non raisonnable, de lui imposer une dépense énorme par rapport à d'autres stations qui nous coûteraient beaucoup moins cher, et la population aurait beaucoup, beaucoup de difficulté à comprendre que la station qui nous est donnée a été déclarée à plusieurs reprises dans les documents que nous avons devant nous très acceptable par un autre requérant.

847   Alors, si c'est acceptable pour un autre requérant et pas acceptable pour nous pour des raisons valables, on aurait de la misère à expliquer ça. On aurait beaucoup, beaucoup de misère à comprendre la sagesse dont vous venez de me parler.

848   COMMISIONER ARPIN: Mr. Pelser, I understand that throughout the test period you have worked with Mr. Gauthier from Spectrum Expert because I can find his report also as an appendix to the Astral -- it's Appendix 2 to the Astral submission and it's exactly the same report as the one that Mr. Bradet filed with his letter. I did check to make sure that it was exactly the same report and it is exactly the same report.

849   So did you have any discussions with Mr. Gauthier throughout the process?

850   MR. PELSER: Unfortunately, Commissioner Arpin, I wasn't involved in the tests myself and I would have to defer that question to Astral.

851   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: But from an engineering standpoint.

852   MR. PELSER: Right.

853   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Engineer to engineer, did you have any discussion about -- because the end result?

854   MR. PELSER: Well, there certainly was discussion amongst engineers in the sense that there were maps filed with the Commission that had been prepared by Mr. Gauthier that Astral had commissioned to have done. So there was a lot of collaboration in that sense.

855   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: But you didn't really change the result.

856   I'm driving you towards the last map that we were looking at earlier today where some tests have been done outside the Predict contour, and I could see Casselman, Bourget and another one with no location to the right-hand side of the map, but you don't know if the -- you never had a chance to discuss with Mr. Gauthier the tests that he had done?

857   MR. PELSER: Not to that level, no.

858   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Now, regarding back to the Astral -- I should have asked you that question earlier today -- were all the tests that you have done, all the measurements, have they all been done in the exterior or some of it has been done in buildings?

859   I'm talking the Astral. I'm talking the Astral.

860   MR. PELSER: Yes. Yes.

861   MR. BRADET: They were done both.

862   MR. PELSER: They were done -- I'm sorry, I just have to turn to -- they were all exterior?

--- Pause

863   MR. PELSER: The majority of the tests were exterior, but there were some done interior by Astral in their listening tests, yes.


865   I think that's only for the record --

866   MR. PELSER: Yes.

867   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: -- to make sure that they were --

868   Monsieur Bradet, est-ce que vous savez si votre ingénieur a fait des tests à l'intérieur ou seulement des tests à l'extérieur des immeubles?

869   M. BRADET : À l'intérieur et à l'extérieur.

870   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Il en a fait dans les deux?

871   M. BRADET : Oui, oui. Définitivement, oui. Et on peut vous envoyer quelque chose...

872   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Non, non, non, non. Je pense que s'il vous l'a dit.

873   M. BRADET : Définitivement. Oui, oui.

874   CONSEILLER ARPIN : D'accord.

875   Those were my questions, Mr. Chairman.

876   Merci, Monsieur.

877   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

878   Len..?

879   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

880   I have a series of questions here and they are all related to your position that 94.5 is vastly inferior as a frequency for your application.

881   I guess you mentioned earlier the fact that the costs of the antenna would be higher, the cost of leasing would be higher in Camp Fortune, but you make a general statement.

882   Can you be specific as to how much more money you are actually looking at if in fact you had to locate on Camp Fortune as opposed to locating in the centre of Ottawa? Because I would imagine the rent in the centre of Ottawa isn't cheap either.

883   MR. BRADET: $8,000 a year.

884   COMMISSIONER KATZ: That's the difference?

885   MR. BRADET: No. The cost of renting an antenna on the top of a building in Ottawa that we have already discussed with the owner is $8,000 a year, as opposed to something in the neighbourhood of $70,000 to $80,000 at Camp Fortune. That's the magnitude you are talking about.

886   Am I wrong by $8,000 at the top there, maybe, but I'm talking of $8,000 multiplied by seven times -- seven or eight times.


888   MR. BRADET: And you can check, as I said.

889   THE CHAIRPERSON: We will.

890   MR. BRADET: You should ask the question to radio-Canada about that.

891   THE CHAIRPERSON: Rest assured we will. Rest assured we will when CBC comes back.

892   MR. BRADET: Yes. You should ask.

893   I mean, I am not the one renting it and I'm not the one making the money on that and that's the cost of the marketplace I understand.

894   I don't have any more intelligence than that on this.

895   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Okay. On the issue of coverage, again I go back to this document that I think you have in front of you here by Yves Hamel and Associates.

896   MR. BRADET: Yes.

897   COMMISSIONER KATZ: And I go back to, I guess --

898   THE CHAIRPERSON: Page 7.

899   COMMISSIONER KATZ: -- page 7 which has the maps superimposed on each other of 101.7, which is the RCFO preferred frequency, and 94.5.

900   If you can see, assuming my eyes are correct, the RCFO is in green and the 94.5 is in red.

901   When I look at these two charts, in my simple mind it appears as though the coverage area of the red is at least as good as the green on the eastern part of the river which goes out to Rockland and far exceeds on the west, which I understand is not as relevant for your purposes perhaps, but at least covers the same geography on the eastern part of Ottawa.

902   Am I missing something?

903   MR. BOIVIN: The element that's missing in the Torres analysis -- our understanding of what is missing is what's in front of you on the screen right now and it's the area of interference on 94.5, which significantly decreases the coverage area.

904   MR. BRADET: The value.

905   MR. BOIVIN: If we look at the potential reach -- and again I will flip to the page previous to the one that I was just showing, that is the map showing the potential reach -- then the Torres study and our study is very similar.

906   But the additional element that we are bringing to the table, and that is what makes us doubt that -- seriously doubt that 94.5 is acceptable for RCFO -- is the red area of interference that you see on the screen right now and that decreased reach makes 94.5 less desirable than 101.7.

907   COMMISSIONER KATZ: But yet when Commissioner Arpin directed you to the red book and identified those areas with I guess the orange circle, the RCFO listening location, it appears as though the coverage does go out to those same areas and this is, from what I gather, not a theoretical map but a test map.

908   So there is service there. When you say that that on your screen identifies more clearly where there is interference, the testing that was taking place appears to refute that in a lot of these areas.

909   MR. BOIVIN: And if people were listening in a car in some of these areas they would get a signal, but they wouldn't at home on clock radios and they wouldn't on the street with the portable radios.

910   COMMISSIONER KATZ: I have that same problem in downtown Ottawa with some radio stations as well with my clock radio. I mean we are talking about different levels of reach.

911   I think it was attested to this morning by one of the parties that whether you are in a car, whether you have a clock radio or Walkman, you will get a different level of quality obviously as well.

912   MR. BOIVIN: Sure. But systematically in the area of red it will be -- the reach will not be the same. The number of people we will be able to reach is not the same.

913   And it's very difficult for RCFO to say that it could launch a viable product when our engineers are showing us a map of these areas that would not be covered and it would be very difficult for us to go to advertisers in these regions and say we want to buy -- we want to buy -- we want you to buy time on our station.

914   COMMISSIONER KATZ: But is what you are looking at a commercial radio station? Were you looking for advertisers to generate income or are you looking at a community radio station where presumably revenue is not as important as the message and the content?

915   MR. BOIVIN: As is obvious from the documents that we filed, advertising revenue, while it's not as expensive and as important an item in our revenues as it would be on a commercial radio station, it is still one of the -- an important aspect of our revenue-generating activities.

916   MR. BRADET: And I would like to add to what Mr. Boivin just said.

917   You know, I have in front of us -- on that table we were talking to you about Cumberland, Rockland, Clarence Creek, Clarence, Bourget, Rivière Nation, Casselman, Casselman. On the radio in the car it's three and four and after that it's zero, zero, zero, one, two. The Francophones won't be able to listen to it outside their car. That becomes a problem. That becomes a big problem.

918   Now, the reach in Casselman that you see there, if it's only in the car I'm sorry, we will not have fulfilled our mission. That's the problem of this question of quality.

919   We have done a study of quality A signal, the best signal versus the less good signal. In one of the maps that we have there, I don't know which one it is, that Map 42, 42.2, we discovered that there is a very small number of people that would get the A quality or the three -- what is it, the 3 mV signal will be about 5000 people. Of that, 90 percent will be in Québec and 10 percent in Ontario.

920   This station's prime target is the minority in Ontario and for us that creates a lot of problems. You know, it will be a great station for Québec, we have no problem with that, a great station. Its strength -- you look at the big map you gave to us, the epicentre, the centre of your strength is really in Québec right off the bat. And we get the periphery in Ontario.

921   Well, difficult to explain. Very difficult to explain to the citizens in Ontario unfortunately.

922   COMMISSIONER KATZ: You mentioned earlier, I think with the Chairman, that there was a reduction of 7 percent of the access to your audience with 94.5 and I think you mentioned 230,000 listeners down 269,000.

923   Those are your numbers. I wrote them down.

924   MR. BRADET: Yes, sir.

925   COMMISSIONER KATZ: When you file with us the details, can you break that down as well as to from what cities, what towns --

926   MR. BRADET: We will do --

927   COMMISSIONER KATZ: -- you are looking at as well for those numbers?

928   MR. BRADET: We will do that.


930   The other thing is, you mentioned that one of the reasons why you haven't gotten approval for 101.7 is because of the CHIP-FM situation. And I think you also said that if this signal is shrunk that you would be able to get approval, but until that time you are going to have less reach.

931   Did I understand that correctly?

932   MR. BOIVIN: If we need to decrease from 3.5 to 3 or something lesser to protect the western area -- CHIP is coming from the west -- our signal would be designed to go towards the east, so away from the CHIP area --

933   MR. BRADET: It's the back noise.

934   MR. BOIVIN: -- in order to reduce the back noise that could interfere with CHIP should they go to 50.

935   COMMISSIONER KATZ: So if you had to do that you would lose audience?

936   MR. BRADET: Very little.

937   MR. BOIVIN: We would lose very little audience because the signal -- in order to do that the decrease does not have to be that significant, but that's also at a period of time when we will have been operational and we can -- we will be in a better position to go to our Phase 2.

938   So even without another antenna the audience that we would reach with a decreased signal in order to accommodate CHIP would make our project commercially or financially viable.

939   But that's also with a big if, if CHIP chooses to go to 50,000.

940   COMMISSIONER KATZ: But it sounds, from what I'm hearing you say, that the CHIP issue is resolvable and relatively easily resolvable

941   MR. BOIVIN: That's right.

942   MR. BRADET: Yes.

943   COMMISSIONER KATZ: So why has Industry Canada failed to give you their approval?

944   MR. BRADET: Because it's between having the licence and not having the licence, going to 50,000 or not going to 50,000. They don't give licences on ifs.

945   COMMISSIONER KATZ: But historically the CRTC only accepted applications where Industry Canada has already provided technical acceptance. You are actually an exception to that rule already.

946   I am trying to understand why, given we are all here and it's another two months later. Industry -- you still have failed to get that technical acceptance from Industry Canada.

947   MR. BRADET: Well, we will come back to you in writing about that. I want to make sure that we have the perfect answer.

948   I think we have answered, but maybe not perfectly so we will come back to you on that.

949   I believe we have established a pretty good level of protection for CHIP at this point in time. We believe that historically speaking to go from 10,000 to 50,000 would be a miracle. It will come almost as a miracle for a small station to do that and we are confident that it will work, but I would come back with you in writing of why precisely.

950   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Okay. Let me just find the specifics though.

951   MR. BRADET: Yes, precisely.

952   COMMISSIONER KATZ: You did file with Industry Canada for technical acceptance?

953   MR. BRADET: Yes.

954   COMMISSIONER KATZ: And you have been talking to them all through this process?

955   MR. BRADET: We talked to them, we filed within the letter. I don't have the answer from them. That letter was also filed with the CRTC. I think it's in the file there. I don't have the date, but I know it was sent to CRTC. We have the copy of the reception of that.

956   COMMISSIONER KATZ: And you have never received a response from Industry Canada?

957   MR. BRADET: I don't have it with me.

958   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Nut you have received a response?

959   MR. BRADET: I will definitely send it to you.


961   MR. BRADET: I don't have it with me.

962   We haven't been -- as you said before, they haven't given us the green light yet.

963   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Well, what did the letter say?

964   MR. BRADET: They have taken notice of our engagement -- commitment, but I want -- I don't want to play only by memory, I want to make sure that you get the answer.


966   MR. BRADET: You will get that answer very soon.


968   The Chairman asked Torres a very straight pointed question: If they were to receive 94.5 would they go on the air or would they turn it back and thank the CRTC but decline? I'm going to ask you the same question.

969   If at the end of the day this Panel, this Commission decided to award you an 94.5, would you accept it and build up your community Franco-Ontarian radio station?

970   MR. BRADET: I, we, I think we have answered that question to Mr. Arpin a few minutes ago.

971   We do not believe that 94.5 is for the community radio RCFO. It does not meet the requirements that we have put in 101.7.

972   The cost will be prohibitive for the community to come up with.

973   The reach to the east of Ontario will be unfeasible. We will not be able, from that position, to increase the strength.

974   Nobody this morning has been able to convince you, or at least us, that we can go from 2000 or 2 kW to 8 kW.

975   If somebody was to say well, you could go to 8 kW, first of all we will have to find out how we could pay for all of that, but that would be solving the problem of the reach, but at 2 kW it doesn't solve our problem and I think that it will not be acceptable at this point in time in view of those reasons.

976   COMMISSIONER KATZ: So what I think I heard you say is if you could get the 8 kW, the coverage would be there and the service would be there, it's only a matter now of money.

977   MR. BRADET: Yes, surely money will be a big item.

978   COMMISSIONER KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

979   Those are my questions.

980   MR. BRADET: A big item.

981   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Monsieur Bradet...

982   M. BRADET : Oui.

983   CONSEILLER ARPIN : ...qu'est-ce qui vous empêcherait de diffuser sur le 94,5, puis de vous étendre vers l'est avec la fréquence 101,7? Il y a plusieurs situations de ce type-là à travers le pays, où des stations ont des réémettrices mais sur une autre fréquence.

984   Il me vient à l'esprit, dans la région de Sherbrooke, toutes les stations FM du marché de Sherbrooke utilisent deux fréquences parce que la topographie ne permet pas de rejoindre le bas de la ville et puis le haut de la ville. Donc, ça prend deux émetteurs, ça prend deux fréquences, et elles ne sont pas nécessairement adjacentes, elles sont parfois même très éloignées une de l'autre.

985   Alors, si vous aviez votre station primaire à 94,5 pour desservir Ottawa urbain, puis je présume une station à 101,7 qui serait du côté de Rockland ou de Casselman pour desservir l'est, où serait l'incompatibilité?

986   M. BRADET : Je ne sais pas s'il y aurait incompatibilité, sauf que nous n'avons pas fait d'étude à ce sujet-là. C'est certain qu'on pourrait faire une autre étude ou d'autres études pendant les deux-trois prochains mois, et, à partir de ce moment-là, vous pourriez prendre une décision, trois-quatre mois après.

987   Mais ça nous inquiète un peu d'être obligé de faire une autre étude parce que ce n'était pas dans nos plans, on n'avait pas prévu ça, mais si c'est un ordre que vous nous donnez ou une demande spécifique, bien, on va être obligé de le faire.

988   Il est certain que les coûts vont être assez grands. Comme d'habitude, ça coûte toujours de l'argent. Ce matin, on disait que ça avait coûté 600 000 dollars à Torres. À date, nous, la communauté, on a investi 125 000 dollars.

989   Je ne veux pas dire qu'on n'est pas capable d'en investir plus, ne prenez pas ça pour un non, mais un moment donné, il y a une capacité de demander à la communauté. On va continuer.

990   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Non, mais...

991   M. BRADET : Mais je veux vous répondre, à tous ces éléments...

992   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui, oui.

993   M. BRADET : ...question de coûts, question de temps, et question... oui, on peut faire l'étude si vous pensez que c'est nécessaire. Et une chose à ne pas oublier dans les coûts là, les coûts d'installation du Camp Fortune ne sont pas juste annuels. Le premier coût est énorme aussi.

994   Alors, tout ça mis ensemble, il faudrait mettre ça dans la balance et voir si on a encore un projet viable.

995   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Mais je ne parle pas d'étude. C'est que vous avez déjà eu des discussions avec vos propres ingénieurs pour avoir mis sur la table, comme vous l'avez fait tantôt, pour dire, on veut avoir la 101,7 localisée au centre-ville d'Ottawa et éventuellement, dans 18 mois, 24 mois, s'extensionner vers l'est en réutilisant la même fréquence.

996   La question que je vous pose, c'est qu'est-ce qui vous empêche d'utiliser la 101,7 pour vous extensionner, tout en diffusant à partir de la 94,5 pour rejoindre le cour du centre d'Ottawa? Je fais ça nonobstant la question des coûts là parce que vous avez fait l'argument sur les coûts.

997   M. BOIVIN : Bien, c'est parce que ça revient toujours à cet aspect-là. On parle d'un projet qui est complètement différent, puis, de la même façon que pour... si on devait recevoir 94,5 et considérer si 94,5 est un projet viable, il faut ajouter tous les nouveaux éléments. C'est une analyse qui est complètement différente.

998   Avec les coûts additionnels de 94,5, les revenus qui peuvent être obtenus avec le bassin plus limité de 94,5, est-ce que ça sera une plate-forme financière suffisante pour être capable d'avoir un projet de réémetteur sur 101,7? Théoriquement, tout cela est possible. Vous avez absolument raison.

999   Mais est-ce que le plan d'affaires fait en sorte que ça pourrait fonctionner? On parle d'un plan d'affaires qui est complètement différent de ce qu'on a prévu maintenant pour 101,7. Théoriquement, par contre, vous avez absolument raison que ça se fait, que ce ne serait pas impossible.

1000   Il y a même des exemples plus proches dans la communauté ici de stations de radio. Il y en a du côté du Québec qui... des stations de la région du côté du Québec qui -- je ne sais pas s'ils le font encore -- diffusaient sur deux fréquences différentes, dépendant de la région où ils étaient.

1001   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Merci. On a une réponse au dossier.

1002   LE PRÉSIDENT : Michel...?

1003   CONSEILLER MORIN : Simplement une question.

1004   M. BRADET : Oui.

1005   CONSEILLER MORIN : Je ne suis pas un expert en marketing, mais deux fréquences pour un territoire comme celui-là et pour votre communauté, est-ce que vous pensez que ça pourrait être aussi porteur pour votre image de marque?

1006   M. BRADET : Ça fait deux images de marque à créer. Une coûte chère. Deux va coûter plus cher. C'est certain que ça serait beaucoup plus difficile, parce que quand on voit les voitures aujourd'hui... j'en regardais une en m'en venant ce matin, une van, c'était 92 quelque chose là, ça prenait toute cette espace-là.

1007   C'est compliqué créer des images de marque dans le domaine des communications, et c'est certain que ça serait encore, dans le plan d'affaires que monsieur Boivin mentionnait tout à l'heure, un coût additionnel important pour une radio communautaire.

1008   CONSEILLER MORIN : Merci.

1009   LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Bradet, quelque chose qui m'étonne, on parle toujours de 101,7 ou 9 et 94. Pourquoi on ne parle pas de 99? Ce n'est pas abonné à Astral. Ça ne leur appartient pas. Pourquoi est-ce que toute la discussion que vous avez faite est seulement entre vous et Torres?

1010   M. BRADET : Non. Écoutez, c'est parce que le questionnement a commencé par les statistiques 101,9, 101,7, et caetera.

1011   Notre position, que nous avons expliquée dans notre document officiel le 8 mai ou le 8 juin -- je ne me souviens pas de la date -- le 6 juin, on dit carrément que si le CRTC décidait de nous accorder 99... 7?

1012   LE PRÉSIDENT : ,7.

1013   M. BRADET : ... ,7, comme on l'a dit au mois de mars, on serait d'accord, sauf que vous ne pourriez pas, à ce moment-là, nous imposer la pleine puissance, qui est à... je ne sais pas quels milliers de watts là... 80 000 watts, un chiffre énorme là...

1014   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

1015   M. BRADET : ...que nous ne pourrions pas supporter comme radio communautaire. Alors, il faudrait considérer ça comme une station B là. C'était ça notre position là-dessus.

1016   Mais naturellement, on accepterait avec plaisir 99, mais en autant qu'il y ait une limitation sur le pouvoir qu'on devrait utiliser, parce que, comme vous savez, plus il y a de watts, des dizaines de milliers de watts, plus ça coûte très cher.

1017   Vous avez dit que vous êtes tanné de nous entendre parler de l'argent, mais la communauté, c'est important. Je m'excuse là de répéter toujours cette question d'argent là, mais...

1018   LE PRÉSIDENT : Et cette charte que vous avez présentée, la qualité... malheureusement, c'est six pieds, et je ne peux pas identifier les choses. Est-ce que c'est possible d'avoir une copie où on peut identifier particulièrement où sont les frontières?

1019   M. BRADET : Oui.

1020   LE PRÉSIDENT : Je regarde ici...

1021   M. BRADET : Oui.

1022   LE PRÉSIDENT : ...sur l'écran, c'est absolument impossible de déterminer où est la frontière...

1023   M. BRADET : O.K. On va... on était très content d'avoir les cartes que vous avez fait faire, parce que c'est de la qualité là. On ne s'est pas rendu là, mais on va essayer de faire un effort pour se rendre là, parce que je pense que le travail que le CRTC a fait ici est excellent. On va essayer de faire la même chose de notre côté.

1024   THE CHAIRPERSON: Et si on utilise les calculs d'ITU que Torres a adoptés -- imperceptible, perceptible, slightly annoying, annoying and very annoying -- en prenant ici la charte que vous avez, 45-2, et vous avez les couleurs ici, est-ce que le bleu correspond à 5 et le vert à 4 ou quelque chose comme ça?

1025   M. BOIVIN : Non. Le vert correspond à... sur la carte que le CRTC a préparée, le vert correspondrait à la zone bleue, et le bleu correspond à la zone rouge.

1026   LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, non, non. Regardez l'étude de YRH à la page 5.

--- Pause

1027   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Madame la Secrétaire...

1028   M. BRADET : On a une copie, mais elle est en noir.

1029   LE PRÉSIDENT : Non, non, non, non.

1030   M. BRADET : Pour les couleurs, c'est difficile. Je m'excuse.

1031   LE PRÉSIDENT : La soumission de YRH, la page 4... 5. Là, vous avez : « ITU CCIR impairment grade definition. »

1032   O.K. J'aimerais que vous preniez ceci et le mettez sur votre charte ici qui a les chiffres SA-00452. Vous avez là une légende. Est-ce que je comprends bien les couleurs et ce scale, whatever it is called?

1033   M. BRADET : On va faire une traduction.

1034   M. BOIVIN : La légende qu'on nous a donnée, c'est sans interférence, mais je ne sais pas si ça, ça inclut le 5 seulement, le 4 et le 5, ou le 3, 4, 5. Il va falloir vraiment demander à l'auteur de la carte pour déterminer.

1035   MR. PELSER: (Off microphone).

1036   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Votre micro, Monsieur.

1037   LE PRÉSIDENT : Micro, s'il vous plaît.

1038   MR. PELSER: The numbers in the ITU CCIR Impairment Grade that are included in the Yves Hamel report, those are the results of listening tests and that is a subjective thing where someone on a particular radio has gone to a particular location and listened to specific stations. They then have assessed the quality of that station according to the CCIR Impairment Grade.

1039   In other words, if the amount of impairment or interference is imperceptible, they give that a grade 5. If they find the interference is very annoying, they give it a grade 1.

1040   So what that really is, that is a subjective assessment on different radios, because different radios have a big effect of reception in different areas. So when many of these people went to these different locations, they took different radios and said let's subjectively judge the quality of reception.

1041   Now, for these maps, and if you could specifically give me a number.

1042   THE CHAIRPERSON: 45-2.

1043   MR. PELSER: 45-2. Okay. What Monsieur Gauthier has done here is he has taken -- these are very different things on these two maps. What Monsieur Gauthier has done is he has taken -- using a program to calculate the realistic coverage, he has calculated the location of the 3-millivolt-per-metre and the 500-microvolt-per-metre contours. The 3-millivolt-per-metre contour is in green. The 500-microvolt-per-metre contour is in the shade of blue.

1044   Then what he has done is he has calculated the ratios between 94.5 and the interfering 94.9 and given the ratio in field strength between those two signals.

1045   THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's get down to earth, please. We are talking about people.

1046   MR. PELSER: Yes, exactly.

1047   THE CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about their capacity to listen and your capacity to reach them.

1048   MR. PELSER: Yes.

1049   THE CHAIRPERSON: That is what I am interested in.

1050   MR. PELSER: Yes.

1051   THE CHAIRPERSON: This scale here tells me something. It is imperceptible, there is a problem, slightly annoying, annoying. Are you telling me this is nice, theoretical but it doesn't relate to the reality on the ground? Because this is the chart which your expert was referring to the whole time. He was showing me this one.

1052   MR. PELSER: M'hmm.

1053   THE CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is what it means for you if you use 94.5. I thought that is why we had this test. That is why we had used engineers. You had people out there. You gave me maps where you listened, et cetera, and I thought your test was that there is too much interference in the east and you pointed to this map. So I am now totally confused.

1054   MR. PELSER: Certainly when Astral did their test, they made a large component, and so did Yves Hamel, of the test being subjective listening tests.


1056   MR. PELSER: That is why I think when that was proposed in the first round of this hearing, was that we can sit and we can present in front of you field strengths and stuff like that but when we put average radios in the hands of the average receivers, that is a test we wanted to carry out.

1057   Now, Monsieur Gauthier here has done a map in which he has looked at various ratios between the interfering 94.9 and the desired 94.5 knowing that different radios operate differently under different conditions.

1058   If you are looking for more subjective listening tests, I think you have to start looking at some of the listening locations, specific listening locations and see what the testers found at those locations rather than this map perhaps.

1059   THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, these are your maps. You have used these maps in order to tell me that 94.5 doesn't -- which map should I look at as a support for that proposition then? Obviously, I looked at the wrong one, you are telling me.

1060   MR. PELSER: Yes.

1061   MR. BRADET: I guess it comes back to the question of quality, and as I mentioned --

1062   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, never mind quality. Before we go to quality, the map that displays reasonably what are the -- which is which? Which should I look at for the purposes of determining whether 94.5 would serve RCFO or not?

1063   MR. BOIVIN: I am just trying to think if there is one specific map that I can direct you to. I think you have to look towards the reports filed and the conclusions drawn in them where they state that in their listening tests a certain percentage of the points experienced interference.

1064   Such as the Astral test, they found that listening to 94.5 in all locations, almost 100 percent of locations, no radio received interference -- no car radio, I'm sorry, whereas it was found that of the lower cost radios perhaps 30 percent listening to 94.5 would receive interference. Now, I am grossly simplifying that.

1065   THE CHAIRPERSON: So we don't have a map. When Mr. Bradet and his colleague were testifying and they were showing us on the screen here those maps, those coloured maps, they are all theoretical, they are not reflecting the result of empirical testing? Is that what you are telling me?

1066   MR. BOIVIN: That is correct.

1067   THE CHAIRPERSON: We do no have a map that reflects the results of empirical testing?

1068   MR. BOIVIN: There is a table.

1069   THE CHAIRPERSON: There is a table.

1070   MR. BOIVIN: The table in our report.

1071   THE CHAIRPERSON: The table in your report, okay.

1072   M. BRADET : Institut... listening -- l'appareil de radio là. It is real. It is not --

1073   THE CHAIRPERSON: Which table are you referring to now?

1074   MR. BRADET: It is page --

1075   MR. BOIVIN: Pages 3 and 4 of the submission of June 3rd.

1076   MR. BRADET: June the 3rd.

1077   MR. BOIVIN: And the table at page 4 is --

1078   THE CHAIRPERSON: Three and 4 of whose report?

1079   MR. BOIVIN: RCFO's letter of June 3.

--- Pause

1080   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. « Paramètres de la nouvelle station »?

1081   M. BOIVIN : Pardon?

1082   THE CHAIRPERSON: Page 3 entitled « Paramètres de la nouvelle station »?

1083   M. BOIVIN : Non. Malheureusement, ce n'est pas... La lettre du 3 juin comportait notre lettre, deux tableaux, et puis, ensuite, le rapport de Spectrum Experts. C'est les deux tableaux qui sont avant le rapport de Spectrum Experts.

1084   LE PRÉSIDENT : Quelle page?

--- Pause

1085   LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, je l'ai.

1086   And this is basically the only empirical evidence we have and it has not been transferred to map form?

1087   M. BOIVIN : Non, pas sur... It hasn't been transferred to a map except on the CRTC's map.

1088   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: On map 3 and 4 of the CRTC.

1089   THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but when you were being questioned by Vice-Chairman Arpin, he suggested that this map wasn't really representative or it really didn't show the limitation of 94.5 and I am trying to figure out why it is that 94.5 is so limited.

1090   My friend Katz pointed out to you that on the study -- if you look at the maps that YRH put together, the circle for RCFO was actually wider than the one that you wanted at 101.7 and I am trying to figure out what it is on which you base your assumption that 94.5 won't do.

1091   MR. BOIVIN: On the theoretical study there is interference noted.


1093   MR. BOIVIN: On the empirical study -- and that is a table, it has not been reduced to a map -- but on the table it shows very clearly that the locations in Eastern Ontario, while they have level 3 or 4 quality reception in the car, have nothing for the réveille-matin, ghetto-blaster 1 or ghetto-blaster 2. So the reception, the quality of the reception for the radios other than car radios would be very poor.

1094   So while the map prepared by CRTC shows that there is data for that point, the data does demonstrate that other than sitting in a car the quality of the reception would be poor.

1095   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. This table, which is sort of your empirical evidence, do you have the equivalent for 101.7?

1096   MR. BOIVIN: No, we don't have the equivalent for 101.7.

1097   THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I note when you say here, Bourget, there's 3 -- in front of the church, 3 units; and réveille-matin -- that is sort of, I guess, a clock -- nothing; ghetto-blaster, nothing; and ghetto-blaster 2, 1, et cetera.

1098   You think that 101.7 would be such a superior frequency for your purposes but you don't have this equivalent for 101.7 to show me that it actually would be.

1099   MR. BRADET: The testing requested by CRTC was on 94.5 and we haven't done the actual live testing of 101.7. I mean, we didn't know we had to do that.

1100   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. I didn't ask you. I am asking on what basis you are telling me 101.7 will do, it's wonderful, it lets us reach all those people, 94.5 doesn't. You actually have an empirical test for 94.5. You don't have that for 101.7. I am somewhat surprised you can make this statement so categorically having evidence on one and no evidence on the other.

1101   MR. BOIVIN: The empirical study has confirmed sufficiently, in the opinion of our engineer, that the theoretical model was confirmed by the actual listening, so that he was able to confirm that there would be -- that the theoretical model was reliable.

1102   It is the same theoretical model that was used to ensure that 101.7 would be acceptable in the previous studies that we filed. That is what we are relying on.

1103   And you are absolutely right that the theoretical model for 101.7 was not confirmed by empirical studies but the empirical studies do confirm the theoretical analysis that was made by the expert.

1104   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I guess you are going to file, Mr. Bradet, an explanation of the differential of the costs that you see between 101.7 --

1105   M. BRADET : Oui.

1106   THE CHAIRPERSON: You are going to file these maps -- one that is legible?

1107   MR. BRADET: Yes.

1108   THE CHAIRPERSON: And you have these -- if I understand, it is these two tables which is your principal document for --

1109   MR. BRADET: Yes.

1110   THE CHAIRPERSON: -- empirical testing? It is properly on our maps, is it or not?

1111   MR. BRADET: It is reflected on the fourth map that you have prepared here at CRTC by -- it is map number 3. You see the small one there, it doesn't reflect the quality, it reflects that testing has been done in those places.


1113   MR. BRADET: That is all. But it doesn't say if it is good or bad, it just says that it is there.

1114   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Can you transpose this empirical table -- this table of empirical testing for a table format to a map format?

1115   M. BRADET : Oui. O.K.


1117   M. BRADET : O.K. On va faire ça, oui. Oui. Oui. Pas de problème.


1119   Any more questions?

1120   Then let's take a break before we go to the next phase.

--- Upon recessing at 1444

--- Upon resuming at 1500

1121   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...

1122   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with the sixth participant on the agenda, Ottawa Media Inc., which is applying for a licence to operate an English-language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Ottawa and Gatineau.

1123   Appearing for Ottawa Media Inc. is Carmela Laurignano.

1124   You will have 15 minutes for your presentation.


1125   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you.

1126   Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Commission Staff, ladies and gentlemen. For the record, my name is Carmela Laurignano, and I am Vice-President of Ottawa Media Inc., which operates CJWL, The Jewel, here in Ottawa.

1127   I will be brief, I promise, in commenting on the use of 94.5 MHz.

1128   From the evidence that has been submitted throughout these proceedings, we at Ottawa Media Inc. believe that it is possible to both uphold the original licensing decision for two new English-language services in the Ottawa-Gatineau market and to meet the objective of supporting a French-language radio service for Franco-Ontarians through the addition of another service, such as the one we have proposed.

1129   94.5 is available. Although it is a second adjacent frequency to Astral's 94.9, the engineering analysis conducted by them and confirmed by several engineering firms indicates that its use causes no interference to the incumbent station.

1130   As a result, we maintain our original position that there are three frequencies capable of supporting a new commercial FM station in Ottawa-Gatineau, namely, 99.7, 101.9 and 94.5 MHz.

1131   Our consulting engineer has advised us all along that 94.5 can provide coverage of the market. Co-location would substantially eliminate interference between CIMF-FM and 94.5, and although Astral has indicated a 2-kilowatt capacity for a second party, we understand that the frequency could be operated to 7 kilowatts or more.

1132   The best use of this 94.5, therefore, in our view, would be for Astral to operate it. Astral would not be prejudiced by this approach, because it is clear that 94.5 is available for immediate use by them, with possibilities of improvements in the future in their own hand.

1133   The utilization of the other two frequencies would provide a much-needed solution to the current spectrum scarcity in Ottawa. It would result in three new signals, each with a coverage of the CMA.

1134   In summary, it is a fact that Astral's adjacent channel is useable, and we believe it is best left in their own hands.

1135   Although we are happy to hear that Astral will allow, and hopefully not just lend to the second party, the use of 94.5, all indications point to the fact that, when possible, each broadcaster should operate its own adjacency in order to both manage and maximize the signal.

1136   We believe and agree with the Commission's original determination that a viable business plan was not offered for a full-service Franco-Ontarian service to serve that community. We submit that a well-financed commercial broadcaster or other can also serve this community, and although we applaud and support the recruitment of volunteers and the tireless search for funding, a well-funded commercial operator with dedicated service to Franco-Ontarians could also provide stability and sustainability.

1137   Our proposal, as the Commission allowed it to be amended, meets the needs of Franco-Ontarians, and we can deliver it on any of the three frequencies before us.

1138   The reasons we responded to the call in the first place was to strengthen our standalone Ottawa operation, The Jewel, that is impeded both by its 485-watt limited signal and the competitive state of the market.

1139   Our aspirations are to serve this market, serve it well, serve it into the future, and be a player for the long term. Our task would be a lot easier if we were awarded another frequency.

1140   However, if the Commission's conclusion is that Franco-Ontarians should have their own dedicated service, it is our view that a call for applications should be issued.

1141   We further submit that RCFO may not be the only applicant that wants to serve, or should serve, by default, Franco-Ontarians.

1142   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we know that you have heard our plea before, but once the last remaining frequencies are gone, there is no remedy for us or others who are limited by our standalone status, as well as limited reach.

1143   We want to stay an Ottawa server well into the future. We hope that you will allow us to do so.

1144   Finally, we know that this has been a long and arduous, and costly, road for applicants, Commissioners and Staff. I am glad to say that our part, at least for myself, is nearly done. Yours will require a bit more stamina, so we thank you for the countless hours that you have dedicated, and we wish you well in your deliberations.

1145   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your submission.

1146   I am interested in one of the points you made. You said that we should stick to the policy that second adjacent frequencies should be the same ownership, which, in this case, means that Astral should get 94.5.

1147   MS LAURIGNANO: I think that if your determination will be that, that you want to keep the two original applicants who were successful in getting licences, and if you wanted to license Astral, our view would be that they should be awarded 94.5, yes.

1148   THE CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't the original award of 99.7 to Astral also partially driven by the fact that they are the only one who can operate that frequency to its maximum use because of the interference with Pembroke?

1149   MS LAURIGNANO: Yes. We have -

1150   THE CHAIRPERSON: Assuming that I follow your - I am just trying to follow the logical conclusion of your train of thought.

1151   Assume that we buy your assessment. Therefore, we say: Okay, Astral, you get 94.5.

1152   What happens to 99.7?

1153   In the way Astral wanted to use it, it would not be possible for anybody else, if I understand it.

1154   MS LAURIGNANO: 99.7 can be used. That was applied for by ourselves and others. It is enough for us and others to meet and possibly even exceed our business plan.

1155   We understand that Astral can open it up a bit more, but it would be useable to us, and we would have two -

1156   THE CHAIRPERSON: Without encroaching on Pembroke?

1157   MS LAURIGNANO: Yes.

1158   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

1159   Michel...?

1160   CONSEILLER MORIN : Pas de question, Monsieur le Président.

1161   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K.

1162   Michel...?

1163   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Good afternoon.

1164   I only have one question. To which policy are you referring when you are saying that the same owner should be operating adjacent frequencies?

1165   Is it a CRTC policy, is it an Industry Canada policy, or is it an Evanov Communications policy?

--- Laughter

1166   MS LAURIGNANO: Well, it's not a CRTC policy for sure. Actually, it is the view of Industry Canada that it should not be operated - there is a protection, in that there has to be dispensation for it.

1167   It is not an Evanov policy either, it is just a logical suggestion on our part.

1168   We also speak from experience, operating a small adjacent station and having incurred some problems with a different ownership structure. It is much better to make adjustments when you have the same person operating it.

1169   And I understand that this is an exception, it is not a rule or a policy by any means.

1170   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: But in your oral presentation you were referring to a policy.

1171   MS LAURIGNANO: No, I am saying that it should be. I don't believe that I said policy; I'm sorry.

1172   If I did, I apologize. I just indicated that it was best used, and should be in the hands of the same operator.

1173   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: Okay. Thank you very much.

1174   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I don't think we have any more questions for you.

1175   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you.

1176   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Madame la Secrétaire, qui est la prochaine personne?

1177   THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed to the next phase, in which applicants can reply on the use of the 94.5 MHz frequency.

1178   Participants appear in reverse order.

1179   Pour les fins du dossier, Ottawa Media Inc. Ont indiqué qu'ils ne comparaîtront pas à cette phase.

1180   Ottawa Media Inc. has advised that they will not appear in this phase.

1181   I will now call Radio de la communauté francophone d'Ottawa to come to the presentation table for this purpose.


1182   M. BRADET : Monsieur le Président, ça va être assez court. On a un ou deux commentaires seulement.

1183   M. BOIVIN : Monsieur le Président, la bonne nouvelle qui ressort de l'audience aujourd'hui, c'est qu'il y a une troisième alternative, celle de 94,5. La question maintenant est dans quels paramètres est-ce que cette fréquence peut être utilisée.

1184   Vous avez devant vous Torres qui dit, ça serait possible de l'utiliser, mais financièrement, il y aurait un coût. Notre plan d'affaires était basé sur quelque chose d'autre.

1185   C'est très semblable à ce que la RCFO vous dit. Le plan d'affaires est basé sur un contour, sur un auditoire et sur des dépenses qui ont été calculés à 101,7. Monsieur Bradet faisait la mention tout à l'heure, lors de notre première comparution, que imposer des changements, imposer un coût supplémentaire, ce serait très malheureux que ce soit le poste communautaire, la minorité linguistique, qui doit supporter ces frais supplémentaires là.

1186   Il y a beaucoup d'information, encore une fois, que nous allons devoir vous fournir. Suite aux questions qui nous ont été posées, les engagements qu'on a pris découlent, toutefois, évidemment, de toute cette situation-là.

1187   C'est que d'opérer, pour la RCFO, sur 94,5, ce serait quelque chose de plus dispendieux. Comment plus dispendieux, on pourra déterminer avec des chiffres précis, mais ça sera plus dispendieux et potentiellement plus complexe, comme le mentionnait monsieur Arpin, la possibilité d'une antenne réémettrice pour une partie de l'auditoire qui est visé.

1188   Donc, imposer ces difficultés et ces dépenses à un des groupes qui est devant vous, les représentations qu'on fait au CRTC, c'est que ça ne devrait pas être à la minorité. Ça ne devrait pas être au poste communautaire. Ça ne devrait pas être à ceux pour qui une petite dépense peut avoir une beaucoup plus grande signification.

1189   Merci beaucoup.

1190   M. BRADET : Merci beaucoup.

1191   LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

1192   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Frank Torres, OBCI, to come to the presentation table.

--- Pause

1193   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record.


1194   MR. E. TORRES: Good afternoon, again, Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Commissioners and Commission Staff.

1195   For the record, my name is Ed Torres. I am the Chairman of Torres Media Ottawa.

1196   With me, to my right, is my business partner and brother, Frank Torres.

1197   On the left is Yves Trottier, our Operations Director here in Ottawa.

1198   We have Maurice Beauséjour, from the firm of YRH, and Joseph Sadoun.

1199   And to the far right is Todd Bernard, the General Manager.

1200   We would like to address some issues raised in Phase I by other applicants, in the following order: first, RCFO, and the understanding of the technical implications of 94.5 - their understanding that 94.5 is flawed, and our discussion around their understanding; and secondly, why does Astral want us on 94.5.

1201   RCFO produced several maps from Spectrum Expert, and the second set of maps doesn't agree with the findings of YRH or D.E.M.A.

1202   YRH tells us that they don't understand where Spectrum Expert comes to these results. They are different. In fact, YRH tried to duplicate them on a number of occasions, and they could not.

1203   What we do know is that D.E.M. Allen and YRH analyses concur.

1204   We will talk about the vastly different maps of YRH and D.E.M. Allen, and also of Spectrum Expert, and we have Maurice and Joseph here who can answer questions about that.

1205   This is not the first time in the process that we have received technical information from RCFO that we could not understand. Initially, when we started the testing of this frequency, we received a detailed analysis from Spectrum Expert which was seriously flawed, and we asked YRH why the difference in their numbers and our numbers.

1206   So they put a call into Spectrum Expert, and they found that Spectrum Expert was using an incorrect database. They actually put the Camp Fortune geographical coordinates on the backside of the mountain, so the transmitter was actually transmitting into the mountain. It left a big coverage area hole in downtown Ottawa. We rectified that by calling them.

1207   This time around we are just not sure where they get their numbers.

1208   We also want to talk about, I guess, the "unlicensability" of 101.7. We have heard a lot of wishful thinking, that somehow there are holes in coverage that the hypothetical frequency 101.7 will fill by the use of a rebroadcaster on that frequency. They say it can be done. It can't be done on that frequency, and Yves can talk firsthand about that.

1209   M. TROTTIER : Oui. Dans une autre vie, j'ai eu la chance d'être le directeur des Opérations de CHPR Hawkesbury et de CJLA Lachute, et la fréquence de Hawkesbury est 102,1. Donc, la fréquence 101,1 serait premier adjacent de 102,1, mais 101,7 est la deuxième adjacente de 102,1, donc, ne pourra pas servir non plus de répétiteur pour l'est ontarien puisque ça serait la règle du deuxième adjacent qui s'appliquerait.

1210   MR. E. TORRES: Thank you, Yves.

1211   So we are unable to explain the numbers. YRH couldn't explain it. They have used all of the assumptions available to try to duplicate Spectrum Expert.

1212   We just wanted to put that on the record because we felt that it was important.

1213   As Vice-Chairman Arpin pointed out earlier, Industry Canada may never issue technical approval for 101.7.

1214   There was also some talk about a hypothetical and a change in CHIP's position. It is just speculation at this point.

1215   We also want to speak to the fact that adding repeaters will come with a financial cost.

1216   And when we talk about financial costs, RCFO is worried that it can't afford a new brief for 94.5. Well, half of the work has already been done, so that brief, which they are going to have to do -- they are going to have to do a new brief because they are not technically approved on 101.7.

1217   So, at least on 94.5, that is somewhat developed.

1218   We also find somewhat interesting, in the technical brief filed for 101.7, the use of an antenna which, in fact, is already occupied, and that is on the public record. It is a letter from Industry Canada.

1219   So even if they were licensable on 101.7, they would either have to build a new antenna array or they would have to build a new tower, and those costs can be exorbitant, very much more expensive than the turnkey solution that Astral has so nicely provided on 94.5

1220   THE CHAIRPERSON: May I stop you there?

1221   MR. E. TORRES: Yes.

1222   THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you explain that? I didn't understand that.

1223   I thought I heard Mr. Bradet say that they have a location downtown where they can put an antenna.

1224   You are telling me that they can't do that?

1225   MR. E. TORRES: Yes. On the public record, there is an Industry Canada Site Evaluation Study of the RCFO application on 101.7 and their site for their tower.

1226   I will quote directly from that, as it wasn't provided earlier.

1227   These are direct quotes.

"The population numbers within the contour may not be accurate. The numbers are based on published information found in Canadian National Census data for the year 1996." (As read)

1228   That is Point No. 1.

1229   Point No. 2:

"According to the brief, a new antenna will be mounted on the existing tower at 120 metres AGL. However, there is already an antenna mounted at that height. Therefore, a revised brief will be required." (As read)

1230   Point No. 3:

"The Safety Code 6 calculation indicates that the proposed FM station, by itself, will exceed the general public limit at 2 metres above the roof on the east side of the area of the building. The highest calculated Safety Code 6 level is 180 percent of the general public limits." (As read)

1231   Still quoting:

"Recommendations: The proposal has been reviewed, and we have determined that the Safety Code 6 level on the roof will exceed the general public limits. Therefore, we cannot approve the installation as presently proposed in their brief." (As read)

1232   MR. F. TORRES: We also want to correct, for the record, that Mr. Bradet said that we want him to push a francophone station to AM. We are surprised and, frankly, disappointed. We were the first group to approach them, to sit down with them. We asked them: What are the needs of the francophone community? They said that an AM wasn't an option.

1233   We have invested a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of resources in researching an FM option for them.

1234   It is of note that Astral also mentioned in their letter of December 12th that AM options were available to francophone minority communities, and I am surprised that Mr. Bradet didn't mention that this morning.

1235   Secondly, we want to deal with why Astral wants us so badly on 94.5. Why would they care? We were surprised by that.

1236   They are giving up their second adjacent frequency. Does it matter to them who ends up on 94.5, whether it is us or RCFO?

1237   We think the answer is obvious, it gives them control over the competition.

1238   MR. LENNOX: We will try to quickly work through a further development of a position that was just mentioned here, which is that Astral is better positioned to use 94.5 than anyone else. In fact, they could probably exploit it to a much higher power setting, thereby certainly addressing any types of interference and penetration issues.

1239   We are just going to call up a slide now, if you will, please, Maurice.

1240   Astral originally applied at this Call for Applications not on 99.7, but on 101.9, and what you are looking at now is the slide of their original coverage map on 101.9 MHz.

1241   When the call was delayed for technical issues, they subsequently reapplied to that massive 99.7 signal, which they again erroneously claimed was only available to them. It is actually available to everyone.

1242   Their original application on 101.9, with that coverage, is quite comparable to the coverage we will see now on 94.9. Again, superimposing 94.9 on their coverage - I'm sorry, 94.5, the second adjacent coverage, you can see that it is quite comparable to their original application, on which their original business plan for Eve FM was predicated.

1243   Now, we looked at the numbers, their original financials compared to their revised financials, because they have made claims that they can't meet their financial commitments, but the numbers don't agree with that.

1244   The CCD amounts were exactly the same in both applications. So the original application, to the next application, CCD amounts have not changed.

1245   The programming expenditure over seven years was virtually identical -- $8.7 million in the 99.7 proposal, and $8.65 million in the original proposal designed for 101.9.

1246   In other words, Astral was proposing essentially the same spending on programming and CCD when it originally applied for 101.9, even with the lower population counts.

1247   Astral would then end up with four FM frequencies in Ottawa, as well as the regional frequency in Pembroke, quite an enviable competitive position.

1248   Astral insists that it is the only one that can operate 99.7, and can't accept another frequency. RCFO says that it can only operate on 101.9. Both point out that our statement that we would take reach provided by 94.5 over that of 101.9 is proof that we should be glad to be licensed on 94.5.

1249   However, we have a number of reasons to prefer 101.9.

1250   This week, as we have mentioned before, we received our Nav Canada approval for our tower structure, our Site Evaluation Study. This took nine months. We would have to start that process over again if we did not get 101.9.

1251   Secondly, and of great concern, as has been mentioned, the conditions that Astral has put on its approval - this is a lot of leverage for Astral.

1252   In particular, in paragraph 43 of their 27 May letter, in essence, we would have to agree to find another frequency if there was a problem with technical interference not resolved to Astral's satisfaction. We could be held up forever on this, since the choice simply belongs to Astral.

1253   In a front-page article in the Ottawa Citizen on April 14th, labelled "The language card played in a bid for a radio spot on the FM dial," Astral is quoted by saying:

"Our problem is that the frequency would infringe on our Rock Détente 94.9 frequency in Gatineau. That doesn't make any sense to us, that we should have to damage our business model to allow a competitor in the marketplace." (As read)

1254   We have shown, and Astral confirms, that there is no technical infringement on 94.9 by 94.5. Thus, this underscores the fact that by pairing two commercial interests on 94.5, this may create mistrust, delays, or an untenable working relationship.

1255   RCFO and Astral have shown by co-authorizing various Spectrum Expert briefs, maps and working together, even sharing their engineer today, that they can work cooperatively to make 94.5 an efficient frequency for both of their objectives.

1256   As such, we believe that 94.5 would be maximized and brought to its full potential by either Astral or RCFO.

1257   MR. E. TORRES: Just to close off that thought, we will affect Virgin, and we will be a competitor to Astral. For that reason, singularly, as well as the other reasons, we think that it is best to keep us on our frequency, the original licence frequency.

1258   Our company is based on entrepreneurial principles. My brother and I founded this company in 1991, in the midst of a recession. We have always taken the road less travelled, and operated independently of other shareholders. We have preferred to control our own company destiny, and this underpins why we bring different ideas to the table, ideas that will secure the independence of our company going forward.

1259   I would ask Yves to wrap up.

1260   M. TROTTIER : Nous tenons à remercier les plus que 3 000 personnes qui ont signalé leur appui à notre station. Leur expression de support inclus plus de 1 500 lettres et pétitions dans la présente procédure, 500 qui ont manifesté leur appui en 2008, plus de mille qui se sont inscrits dans la page de Facebook DAWG-FM. Ces intervenants sont anglophones, francophones et allophones. Ils sont politiciens, musiciens, fans de blues, festival de blues, des promoteurs, hommes et femmes d'affaires, universitaires, des clubs de services, des radios communautaires, des annonceurs locaux, régionaux et nationaux, pour ne nommer que ceux-ci.

1261   MR. E. TORRES: Finally, thank you, and your Staff, for a thorough hearing - or, more accurately, for surviving a marathon. This is our third hearing concerning new services for Ottawa. I congratulate you on your understanding of the issues and for your patience.

1262   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1263   First of all, could I ask you to file the letter which was read?

1264   MR. F. TORRES: Absolutely.

1265   THE CHAIRPERSON: Secondly, you make the point that 94.5 should be given to Astral. Assuming that I buy that, what happens to 99.7?

1266   MR. E. TORRES: We think that 99.7 is an excellent frequency to serve the francophone community. If we were ranking frequencies to serve the francophone community, as designed by the Evanovs or Maheu, 99.7 is very good, and 94.5 is also very good. The 101 frequency is the least desirable to serve that community.

1267   THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you use 99.7?

1268   MR. E. TORRES: Yes, we could use 99.7.

1269   THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you take it if we brought it to you?

1270   MR. E. TORRES: We would, in a heartbeat.

--- Laughter

1271   THE CHAIRPERSON: The heartbeat is back.

1272   How would you deal with the issue of Pembroke, which is where we have heard that only Astral can exploit 99.7 to its maximum because of interference from Pembroke?

1273   MR. E. TORRES: With time, we hope that we can heal some rifts. No, but we have very ingenious engineers, and the answer to that question starts over there.

1274   MR. F. TORRES: If I can just develop that as well, if it does move over there, other than Astral's brief there were four other technical briefs that were approved by Industry Canada on 99.7 at slightly reduced parameters as compared to the monstrous Astral proposal.

1275   THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.

1276   MR. F. TORRES: And they were -- and there are suitable coverages.

1277   THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would basically operate at reduced power on the --

1278   MR. F. TORRES: Yes.


1280   MR. E. TORRES: If you were to make that determination, though -- and I will just ask Maurice to put up one slide. Maurice, yes. Sorry, the DAWG slide.

--- Laughter

1281   MR. E. TORRES: This was the President of the Ottawa Blues Society on -- things happen quickly when you make a decision -- on August 27th he went to the licensing office. We would have to change his licence plate.

--- Laughter

1282   THE CHAIRPERSON: Any questions from my fellow Panel Members?

1283   Michel...?

1284   COMMISSIONER ARPIN: What will happen with your guitars?

1285   MR. E. TORRES: Well, I mean we were talking about that and we are Canadians and we are entrepreneurial and innovators, so we may go to Red Green and borrow some duct tape.

--- Laughter

1286   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much for your presentation.

1287   Madame...?

1288   THE SECRETARY: I would now invite Astral Media Radio Inc. to come forward to the presentation table.

--- Pause

1289   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record.


1290   MR. PARISIEN: I am Jacques Parisien and I am accompanied here by Wally Lennox, our Chief Engineer.

1291   We have no comments to add to what we have said so far in the process, but are here to answer questions if you have any others.

1292   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1293   Let's follow up that idea which was put on the table by Evanov in which we just -- they basically suggest that because it's second adjacent to you, to your RockDetente, you should be the logical owner of 94.5.

1294   Just purely as I understand it, if we actually accepted that idea and awarded you that frequency, what would that mean for you?

1295   MR. PARISIEN: It would mean that the business model that we built in our application doesn't hold anymore.

1296   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And...?

1297   MR. PARISIEN: And that we would probably not go ahead with our project.

1298   THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would turn that back to us?

1299   MR. PARISIEN: Possibly, yes.

1300   THE CHAIRPERSON: And what about the last point of Evanov -- not Evanov, Torres just made that there were several applications for 99.7 besides yours on reduced power, but actually that frequency is perfectly usable by other people besides Astral?

1301   MR. LENNOX: We had stated in the last hearing that we made a mistake in that comment initially, that in fact there were other applications on 99.7 and those applications were valid.

1302   The only operator that could make maximum use of 99.7 is Astral -- maximum use.

1303   THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Parisien, you just used the word "probably".

1304   You have until the end of next week, I would like a categoric answer as to what you --

1305   MR. PARISIEN: I will give you one right away, we would refuse it.

1306   THE CHAIRPERSON: I will give you until the end of next week to respond.

1307   MR. PARISIEN: Okay, but I will -- I will confirm that in writing, sir.


1309   MR. PARISIEN: Thank you.

1310   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

1311   Okay. There are no other questions. Thank you very much.

--- Pause

1312   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation do not intend to participate unless you have questions.

1313   THE CHAIRPERSON: Do any one of my colleagues have a question for CBC?

1314   I actually do, so would you bring them forward?

1315   THE SECRETARY: I would then call Canadian Broadcasting Corporation/Société Radio-Canada to come to the presentation table.

--- Pause


1316   THE CHAIRPERSON: You were in the room when RCFO testified and one of their points was that going to Camp Fortune is expensive and it's more expensive than they can -- and that they would have to pay you rent.

1317   Obviously I appreciate the rent is something that you negotiate and don't want to disclose, et cetera, but it would be very helpful for us if you can give us an indication of the ranges overall.

1318   If you don't want to do it publicly file it in confidence, et cetera, but we have to know in exactly what -- how if RCFO would be using the 94.5 frequency and strikes a deal with NewCap, what is the range of the rent that they can expect to have to pay to you or what you would be proposing -- I don't know whether you have a scale, whether you negotiate one-by-one.

1319   Maybe you can give me a bit of context and then the actual number if you want to in confidence.

1320   MR. MARCOTTE: We do negotiate every agreement on commercial terms with any tenants that come on our sites.

1321   In terms of a range for Camp Fortune, I would anticipate the range would be between $50,000 and $80,000 and that would consist of two components, the rent that any tenant would need to pay to CBC/Radio-Canada for occupation of the site, but in this particular case there would also be a second agreement between the tenant and NewCap for sharing of their antenna.

1322   THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be worked through you?

1323   MR. MARCOTTE: No, the --

1324   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, it would be two separate deals, one with you and one with -- right.

1325   MR. MARCOTTE: It would be two separate -- two separate agreements.


1327   Michel...?

1328   CONSEILLER MORIN : Mais s'il s'agit d'une radio communautaire, est-ce que vous avez les mêmes tarifs que pour la radio commerciale?

1329   M. MARCOTTE : Non. Nous avons des tarifs préférentiels, si vous voulez, pour les radios communautaires, mais peu importe, le range que je vous ai donné a pris ça en compte quand j'ai répondu à la question.

1330   CONSEILLER MORIN : Donc, ce serait plus bas... ça pourrait être plus bas que l'échelle que vous nous avez donnée?

1331   M. MARCOTTE : Non, l'échelle que je vous ai donnée a pris ça en compte.

1332   CONSEILLER MORIN : Est-ce que vous avez actuellement à Camp Fortune... est-ce que vous avez des antennes communautaires à Camp Fortune?

1333   M. MARCOTTE : Oui, nous avons une... un poste.

1334   CONSEILLER MORIN : Et c'est dans cet ordre de grandeur?

1335   M. MARCOTTE : Oui. J'ai fait ce que je pense que Newcap va demander comme location, et j'ai ajouté les deux tarifs, et ensuite, j'ai donné les deux points.

1336   CONSEILLER MORIN : Merci.

1337   LE PRÉSIDENT : Michel...?

1338   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Et au-delà de ces frais avec Radio-Canada et Newcap, est-ce qu'il y a aussi d'autres frais que doit encourir une station de radio? Je comprends qu'il y a des coûts d'électricité, mais au niveau des coûts de construction, est-ce qu'on parle ici de frais qui sont majeurs, compte tenu qu'il y a déjà des infrastructures en place?

1339   M. MARCOTTE : Dans le cas de Camp Fortune et si on prend la configuration qui semble être la préférable, qui est de combiner dans l'antenne de Newcap, les frais d'immobilisation ne seraient pas énormes. Quant aux frais d'exploitation, il va y avoir des frais d'exploitation pour l'hydro et des frais d'exploitation pour maintenir les installations.

1340   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Donc, l'ensemble des frais sont ceux que vous avez décrits?

1341   M. MARCOTTE : Exact.

1342   CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bon, exactement. Merci.

1343   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

1344   Thank you once again for coming and testifying. We much appreciate it.

1345   Madame la Secrétaire...?

1346   THE SECRETARY: This completes the agenda of this public hearing.

1347   Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Panel Members and participants.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1538


____________________      ____________________

Johanne Morin         Jean Desaulniers

____________________      ____________________

Sue Villeneuve         Monique Mahoney

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