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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.




















                      SUBJECT / SUJET:




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)












HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark                   The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                    1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                       Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 29, 2008                     Le 29 février 2008








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)






Helen del Val                     Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller







Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secretaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Carolyn Pinsky                    Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique





HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark               The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                   Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 29, 2008                 Le 29 février 2008


- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA







Variety - The Children's Charity                 1357 / 7884


Wyckham Porteus                                  1359 / 7899


Christopher Gaze                                 1370 / 7978


City of Nanaimo                                  1372 / 7993


George Hanson                                    1375 / 8003


CVI Centre for the Arts                          1381 / 8032


Gung Haggis Productions                          1386 / 8064


MuddCats                                         1416 / 8271


Pacific Audio Visual Institute                   1425 / 8325


Arthur Hughes                                    1444 / 8449


Gabriola Radio Society                           1452 / 8501


Music B.C. Industry Association                  1462 / 8568


NCRA                                             1472 / 8627









Matthew Gordon McBride (OBCI)                    1486 / 8701


Frank Torres                                     1488 / 8721


Canadian Broadcasting Corporation                1499 / 8793




- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA


PHASE IV (Cont.)





902890 Alberta Ltd.                              1521 / 8950


Jim Pattison Broadcast Group                     1525 / 8978


Narenderjit Pataria (OBCI)                       1528 / 8999


The Coast 104.1 FM                               1530 / 9021


Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI)                1534 / 9045


In House Communications Inc.                     1535 / 9052


Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd.                        1537 / 9071


6851916 Canada Inc.                              1539 / 9082


Astral Media Radio Inc.                          1541 / 9097


Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1546 / 9123


Vista Radio Ltd.                                 1554 / 9166


Newcap Inc.                                      1562 / 9214


Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1567 / 9241


0785330 B.C. Ltd.                                1568 / 9248





                  Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Friday, February 29, 2008

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le Vendredi

    29 février 2008 à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 78837883             THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Variety ‑‑ the Children's Charity.  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 17884             MR. STEWART:  Good morning.  My name is Bob Stewart.  I am President of Variety ‑‑ The Children's Charity of British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17885             I am also a former Chief of Police of the city of Vancouver during the period 1981 to 1991.  I have a long history.  I was born and raised in the city, and I am quite knowledgeable of how it has developed over time and moved from small village to metropolitan city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17886             Of course, being an active community person, I am very attuned to current affairs in this city.  I am pleased to appear this morning on behalf of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group to support their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17887             I have watched the development of the radio networks, having been a frequent visitor to radio and open line shows during my 10 years as a Chief of Police and I became quite aware of the various personalities and people from management in the stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17888             More of late, in my capacity as President of a major non‑profit in this part of the world, I am quite knowledgeable of who is active in terms of community service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17889             Mr. Pattison, who leads the group, I have known for many years.  I would not call myself a personal friend of Mr. Pattison's, although if we met on the street ‑‑ and you can meet Mr. Pattison on the street quite regularly ‑‑ he will stop and we will exchange the time of day and move on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17890             I am quite familiar with his style of management because he has a very diversified portfolio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17891             I am also Chair of the Board of Governors of a provincial Authority that regulates the motor vehicle industry, and of course Mr. Pattison also has a very active portfolio there.  So I am familiar with his business practice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17892             In terms of his contribution to the community, I think it goes without saying that he is very community minded.  He has been a great supporter.  He has a record of philanthropy I would say second to none in this part of the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17893             He is not one who hesitates to reach out to the community, and in that capacity I have been successful in my fundraising role of producing in this province a major telethon, probably the biggest telethon in this country, the Variety Show of Hearts, which just two weeks ago raised over $8 million in this small province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17894             We also run a number of radiothons with a variety of radio station companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17895             I must say that Mr. Pattison and the Pattison Group are one of the leading sources of funding for us in the remote communities of the province where the smaller radio stations are located.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17896             I understand that the application is to include another FM station in our market, and I have no hesitation in supporting this organization, the Jim Pattison Broadcasting Group, in their application.  I think they would make a great contribution to this community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17897             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17898             We will now hear the presentation of Wyckham Porteous.


LISTNUM 1 \l 17899             MR. PORTEOUS:  I would like to thank you for allowing me to come this morning to speak on behalf of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group and their application for an FM licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17900             My name is Wyckham Porteous, I have been a singer/songwriter/performer/playwright/artist in Vancouver for the past 20‑odd years.  I have lived in the community for that length of time.  I have been active in a variety of endeavours to raise money for various charities, as well as starting a foundation that helps recognize the plight of the women on the downtown east side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17901             I have been very, very familiar with the Jim Pattison Group, having lived for a long period of time in Vancouver and, like Bob said, his record in terms of philanthropy, community activism in terms of his work within the community speaks for itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17902             My particular interest in this application is as an artist and someone who has been recording music and releasing records since 1989.  I have found it particularly frustrating to be in an environment where it becomes increasingly difficult to have your music heard by the general public and if you don't have an audience it becomes increasingly difficult to make a living as a performer, particularly in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17903             The AAA format which they are proposing has been in existence in the United States for a little over a decade in a large‑scale way.  It has allowed performers that don't necessarily operate in the under‑16 category of music to flourish and have very strong careers, both in terms of record sales and in terms of just radio play and impact in their concerts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17904             Without that kind of exposure, even in the world of Internet, even in the world of streaming radio, even in the world of satellite radio, it is very, very important for artists to be able to feel that their music is put out there; that they have an opportunity to reach out and have an audience reach back towards them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17905             The AAA format in the United States currently is responsible, I would say, for the flourishing of Arcade Fire, The New Pornographers, Feist, when she first started out, Sarah McLachlan.  All of these are Canadian artists.  All of these I feel, if there was not the AAA format in the United States, would not have a career now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17906             There has been absolutely no support for artists that do not fall into a certain ‑‑ and I use the term "mainstream", but mainstream is relative because whatever is popular becomes mainstream.  But in this case mainstream being urban, dance music, hip‑hop.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17907             If you don't have that kind of music in your repertoire, it becomes very, very difficult to have a career because radio formats have become so tight as compared with the late 60s and early 70s when radio was much more free‑form and the broadcaster in whatever hour they were broadcasting had a lot more leeway as to what kind of music they played.  And that is not the case these days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17908             So it is very important to, I think, create a strong artistic community within this country to allow a format that is perhaps a little more broad in its demographic, a little more mature in its listening and enables artists that truly excel in this country all the way back to Neil Young, to Leonard Cohen, to Joni Mitchell, this is the kind of music that this country has produced on an extraordinary basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17909             So that is probably the main reason why I am supporting this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17910             The Pattison Broadcast Group is another reason why I'm supporting this application, because I believe that the record of Jim Pattison and his group of companies has been one of commitment and a certain strength over the years in establishing ties to the community, staying with the format, staying with the business and really reaching out in a way that is quite unusual to a broader base than just what perhaps would be his own personal interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17911             I have met Jimmy on two occasions.  I spent 45 minutes singing while he played the piano on his yacht.  I did quite a good version of Bye‑Bye Blackbird and he plays it very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17912             I also know Glen Clark very well, who works for Jim in a very high capacity.  Although, as many people have speculated between their relationship that they don't exactly seem like people that would fit in with each other's business and political points of view, it has been a very, very successful relationship.  And Jim Pattison has proven to me, partly through that, that his idea of business is one that transcends what we would normally think of as political or ethical or certain points of view lines.  He is very, very ‑‑ a very, very committed person and quite extraordinary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17913             The Music B.C. Fund, the monies that they propose to help artists in B.C. is also something that I think is very, very, very needed in a community which is very expensive to live in, in a community that is in some ways forcing their artists out through the price of real estate, through the price of just walking down the street in the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17914             So it is very important that there is also a financial component that actually helps artists in this market area to not just live, but to flourish and be able to push their music to a much larger audience, allowing them to make a living.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17915             That is my intervention or intervening for now.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17916             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17917             Commissioner Menzies will lead the questions.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17918             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17919             Mr. Stewart, I would just like to know your views on how in particular or specifically would approval of this application assist the charity that you represent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17920             MR. STEWART:  Well, I think I would be less than being straightforward if I didn't tell you that if Mr. Pattison had more stations, I would be certainly pursuing more radiothons to raise money for needy children.  And based on his track record, I would feel very comfortable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17921             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17922             Mr. Porteous, I am curious to know the situation you described regarding formats becoming tighter or more strictly defined and having less leeway as opposed to what you described as a previous era when there was more free‑form in terms of decision‑making.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17923             Can you help me understand a little bit more about how that evolved?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17924             MR. PORTEOUS:  Well, Vancouver in particular had a radio station ‑‑ and I believe it is still CFUN, which is 1410.  I don't know if it is called CFUN any more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17925             That radio station, and also CKLG‑FM, which is very famous now, where a group of broadcasters started to broadcast the music of bands from San Francisco, from New York, some European bands and were able to sort of instill their personalities through the music they played and also through kind of how they presented that music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17926             Over the years, as radio stations became, I guess, much more of a lucrative business opportunity, you started to have programmers that would come in and recommend the songs that they felt should be played.  So as that became the norm, which it actually is the norm, that a consultant would be hired and say for 25 stations these are the 40 songs you should be playing in the next two weeks and that's all you should be playing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17927             So it becomes very, very difficult for a new artist to break in, because although one would never want to use the word payola, that is precisely what it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17928             So to have a radio station that is committed to a format that is less explored to me means that there is going to be more opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17929             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just in general with the AAA format, what would prevent the same type of thing from happening in terms of that where you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 17930             MR. PORTEOUS:  Nothing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17931             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Nothing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17932             MR. PORTEOUS:  No.  I mean, once a format becomes popular and once that format starts earning money for its advertisers and the station owners, there is nothing that would stop the proliferation of consultants and programmers and all of that kind of thing.  So one can only hope.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17933             I believe if you are in the beginning of a process in a format, I think there is such a thing as integrity and I actually believe that the Pattison Group has that kind of integrity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17934             Now, whether it stays that way and whether formats become the norm, there is really not much you can do about that.  It all becomes about business, to a large degree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17935             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  What I'm hearing from that is that AAA is kind of a breakout from what has been happening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17936             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17937             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But it would still be at risk in ‑‑ it would still be susceptible to the sort of strict formatting dependent on corporate culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17938             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.  But I don't think that is different for any format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17939             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yes, right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17940             Thank you.  That's all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17941             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17942             Thank you very much for taking the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17943             Oh, I'm sorry.  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17944             Commissioner Cugini...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17945             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Porteous, just a couple of questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17946             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17947             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I am on a website right now that is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 17948             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17949             COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ and I can see here the headline is "At Long Last... The UK Wait Is Over!" and that "Please Please Me" was released in the U.K. in July.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17950             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17951             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How much airplay do you get in Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17952             MR. PORTEOUS:  Right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17953             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17954             MR. PORTEOUS:  I would say probably zero to three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17955             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How would you describe your music style?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17956             MR. PORTEOUS:  I would describe it as actually music that is in a AAA kind of format; it's adult alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17957             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And no radio stations right now are playing "Please Please Me"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17958             MR. PORTEOUS:  To be fair, my new album is just being released March 18th, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 17959             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That is "Please Please Me"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17960             MR. PORTEOUS:  "Please Please Me" and some other songs.  So when I say nobody is playing it right now, that is not completely fair because it is just being released now.  So hopefully other people will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17961             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So would you be considered an emerging artist in Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17962             MR. PORTEOUS:  If I am, I think there is something wrong with the category.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 17963             MR. PORTEOUS:  Or maybe it's a compliment to how I look, I don't know.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 17964             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I see you are playing Hughes Room on Tuesday night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17965             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17966             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That should be fun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17967             MR. PORTEOUS:  Yes, it will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17968             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes, too bad I'm here.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17969             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for taking the time to participate in the proceedings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17970             MR. PORTEOUS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17971             THE SECRETARY:  Now I would call Boyd Thomson, Christopher Gaze, Vancouver Multicultural Society, Carla Graebner, Nanaimo Magazine, CVI Centre for the Arts ‑‑ Nanaimo, Merv Unger and Gung Haggis Productions to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 17972             THE SECRETARY:  We will start with the presentation of Boyd Thomson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17973             We will then start with Christopher Gaze.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17974             MR. GAZE:  Hello.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17975             THE SECRETARY:  Are you Mr. Christopher Gaze?

LISTNUM 1 \l 17976             MR. GAZE:  Hello, my name is Christopher Gaze, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17977             THE SECRETARY:  Perfect.  You have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 17978             MR. GAZE:  Thank you.  I shall not need that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17979             My name is Christopher Gaze.  I am the Artistic Director of a Shakespeare Festival here in Vancouver called Bard on the Beach Shakespeare Festival.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17980             I wish to speak to the fact that our audience ‑‑ it is not purely just about Bard, as an ordinary citizen as well, but as far as the Shakespeare Festival is concerned there is a massive interest in what we do here in Vancouver.  87,000 people came to Bard last year.  That was for different productions and that was every single ticket from beginning to end.  So it is quite a phenomenon, frankly, in the arts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17981             Our audience, as you would probably recognize, is the kind of audience that listens to CBC; not wholly, but certainly that would be the main part of it.  It is very disturbing when you drive around the city or indeed at home ‑‑ and I have had this where we live for some years in Kitsilano ‑‑ in one portion of our home we cannot get CBC ‑‑ it is very odd ‑‑ on 690.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17982             So it is alarming when I think that there are a lot of people out there that may not be getting the message or the message is constantly an irritant to them when it fades in and out.  CBC of course talks to its audience about many, many things and we are part of that, the Shakespeare Festival.  So it is alarming that that message is not going out loud and clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17983             I understand that Vancouver and perhaps one other place in Canada is the only place that is still on the AM band and I don't understand that.  We should be serviced the very best, as the rest of Canada is, with a clear CBC signal getting through to everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17984             The CBC, one can argue and has been argued for so many years, is perhaps the glue that holds Canada together, that makes us unified and understand who we are from coast to coast.  It is just too important for Canada that that signal should be interrupted in any way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17985             So obviously I'm grateful that you have given me a few minutes to speak to you.  I am passionate about this and you know very clearly what my message is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17986             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17987             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17988             We will now hear the presentation of  Vancouver Multicultural Society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17989             MR. UNGER:  Actually, if I may, on behalf of my colleagues and I, we have a presentation and one will follow the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17990             My name is Merv Unger.  I am a City councillor and Acting Mayor for the city of Nanaimo on Central Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17991             If that is okay, I would like to proceed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17992             THE SECRETARY:  Yes, you may go ahead.  You have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 17993             MR. UNGER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17994             I asked to make this presentation today because I strongly believe that a CBC FM station on Central Vancouver Island would be of benefit to all of our residents, businesses and local governments.  The regional District of Nanaimo is the fastest‑growing regional District in British Columbia and the city of Nanaimo is the second fastest growing city in British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17995             The trade area for Nanaimo on Central Vancouver Island, including the west coast of the island, is 348,000 people.  The presence of an FM CBC station serving this population with a regional radio content goes without saying.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17996             Vancouver Island has changed visibly in the past decade, with an average 7 per cent population growth rate in our region.  This growth continues.  Our business sectors, artists and organizations, all of which make up our diverse communities, would support an on‑air outlet for information and dialogue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17997             We have a very vibrant economy, high levels of growth and quality of life.  Our city would benefit greatly by having a greater profile in the national dialogue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17998             Nanaimo offers the largest retail shopping locations on Vancouver Island north of Victoria and, more to the point, our shopping malls are designated emergency shelters in the event of large‑scale community or natural catastrophe.  Our city has invested in an emergency call alert system, but the presence of a single radio station to broadcast immediate information to our residents, disaster response teams and provincial emergency personnel would ensure an improved response all around and an associated reduction in loss of life.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17999             In closing, I want to thank you for listening to this very brief presentation and for inviting a response from the residents of Central Vancouver Island and Nanaimo, as well as elected officials from all of the Vancouver Island communities that have responded in writing to the potential of an FM station in Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18000             We look forward to your favourable decision to grant this frequency application by the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18001             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18002             I would like to now defer to Mr. George Hanson of the Nanaimo business community.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18003             MR. HANSON:  My name is George Hanson and I live in the city of Nanaimo.  I am here at the request of Leslie Lorenz of Nanaimo Magazine and the Chamber of Commerce who was not able to make it here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18004             Madam Chair and Commissioners, thank you for this opportunity to intervene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18005             I am here representing Nanaimo business interests in support of the CBC application.  I am Managing Director of the Downtown Nanaimo Partnership with a single mandate to revitalize downtown Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18006             I am a long‑standing member of the Nanaimo Economic Development Group and an ex‑officio board member of the Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce.  I am a member of the Advisory Council for the Malaspina Institute for Community Leadership and Innovation, a member of the Destination Nanaimo Marketing Advisory Committee, a member of the Safer Nanaimo Committee, cofounder of YES Nanaimo, which is a group of community stakeholders committed to supporting initiatives that contribute to the general wellbeing, social good and quality of life in Nanaimo.  And I am the former President of the Business Improvement Areas of British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18007             I am here representing the full range of these Nanaimo business interests.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18008             Business thrives in an environment of growth and to a large degree growth is a product of increased profile, market awareness and continual reinforcement of relevant information streamed to target audiences.  Nanaimo is grossly underserved by radio because of limited access to radio programming that is relevant to the Vancouver Island marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18009             Because the Nanaimo region is not an important market to Vancouver, none of the content of the 30 existing Vancouver radio frequencies speaks to our needs or our issues.  Therefore, no profile is given to the island and no market awareness is built to help drive the Nanaimo economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18010             Because the CBC signal from Victoria does not carry well to Nanaimo, or to the rest of Vancouver Island and coastal region for that matter, there is no real reason to develop content profiling Nanaimo as part of the CBC Victoria programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18011             So even though Nanaimo could get some profile and market awareness on CBC, we don't because the signal doesn't carry.  Thus, as strange as this may seem in 2008, we in Nanaimo live in virtual radio isolation.  We can't get our message out and we are bombarded by messages from elsewhere with no meaning to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18012             We have three local stations, two commercial and one community station, that play their part and that incidentally support the CBC application.  Otherwise, being only 34 kilometres from Vancouver, our airwaves are dominated by Vancouver commercial radio broadcasts.  We hear all 30 Vancouver frequencies loud and clear, all of it irrelevant and none of it promoting the island economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18013             Ironically, the CBC broadcast from Victoria that would be relevant and would help profile our region can't be received by most people in our marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18014             It may be difficult to understand from a Vancouver‑centric perspective, and I say this as a former resident of Vancouver, but the Vancouver news has nothing to do with us.  Our weather is so completely different from Vancouver because of the ocean and topographical influences that weather reports from Vancouver are often quite literally the exact opposite of the weather we are having in Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18015             And the traffic jam on the Second Narrows Bridge, well, it has nothing to do with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18016             Nanaimo and the rest of Vancouver Island north of Victoria has been changing and is changing at a phenomenal pace, and we are crying out for improved regional, national and international coverage and awareness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18017             Downtown Nanaimo, for instance, with 700 businesses, 5,300 employees, 4,300 residents and more than $200 million in commercial property assessments, is the regional focal point for provincial and federal government offices and is the largest business district on Vancouver Island outside of Victoria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18018             We have more than $400 million worth of construction presently under way in our downtown alone and the Destination Nanaimo Marketing Committee, of which I am a member, is charged with guiding an annual budget of $1 million to attract tourism and commercial business to Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18019             None of our issues, none of our events, none of our progress, none of our stories that might drive market awareness and build appeal, none of our challenges and successes, none of our community development or human interest stories ever make it to the airwaves.  But we sure can tell you how far traffic is backed up on the Oak Street Bridge and which nightclub is humming in Surrey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18020             With respect to the special interests promoted by the various Vancouver applicants, these represent niche markets within an already broadly served marketplace.  Adding one more frequency to the pool of broadcasting in Vancouver would be a drop in the bucket, with no appreciable impact to the greater Vancouver general populace or marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18021             In contrast to this, awarding this one remaining FM frequency to the CBC would have enormous impact on the 348,000 people living on Vancouver Island in Nanaimo North.  This is not a niche market; this is an entire regional population that is underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18022             In addition to the 348,000 people that are living in Nanaimo and Vancouver Island North, we also have tens of millions of visitors that are coming to Vancouver Island, touring the Island and who do not have access to an adequate CBC signal while they are on the island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18023             That is a huge part of our marketplace and a CBC station would serve them dramatically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18024             In addition to the opportunity for increased regional profile through regular CBC news and other programming, combined with the potential for national and international exposure through the CBC network, we would have a measurable commercial benefit to our local businesses and regional economy.  This one frequency, that would be a small addition to the Vancouver marketplace, would be an ocean of opportunity for Nanaimo and for the rest of Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18025             Nanaimo and the rest of the Island region respectfully asks only that you help us come into the 21st century.  We understand that the rest of the country, and other parts of the world even, enjoys the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18026             We only ask that we too receive the benefits of the national public radio towards which we all contribute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18027             I am also aware that the CRTC has received a massive amount of written support for the CBC from the Nanaimo area.  When you grant your approval for the CBC application, we will thank you for recognizing our clear need for a higher level of service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18028             The Nanaimo business community supports you in a decision that will favour the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18029             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18030             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18031             We will now hear from CVI Centre for the Arts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18032             MS TANG:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18033             In view of the two former presentations, I will focus primarily on the arts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18034             Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you here at this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18035             My name is Camilla Tang.  I am from Nanaimo and I strongly support the CBC application which will bring a much needed service to Nanaimo and other areas underserved by radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18036             With my extensive involvement in several arts organizations, I am here to represent our arts community as a whole.  I am a former President of the Nanaimo Art Gallery, a Commissioner of the Parks, Recreation and Culture Commission of Nanaimo, as well as a member of the Cultural Committee, and I am presently the founding President of the Centre for the Arts ‑‑ Nanaimo, Chair of the Arts, Culture and Entertainment Committee of the Downtown Nanaimo Partnership, and Chair of the Organizing Committee of Nanaimo 2008 Cultural Capital of Canada Committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18037             I also Chair the Nanaimo Spirit Committee of the 2010 Legacies Now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18038             We have a vibrant, productive and excellent arts and culture sector in Nanaimo and on the Island as a whole.  Several national and international artists have come from Nanaimo and the area.  Just two of note are Diana Krall and Ingrid Jensen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18039             And we have one of the highest per capita of artists with a wide variety of disciplines living among us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18040             This leads to a constant rise of emerging artists, some already receiving international acclaim.  Some of the names to watch:  We have Shae Apland, baritone; Katy Bowen‑Roberts, singer and producer; Brendan Tang, a structural ceramic artist; and Jillian Vanstone with the National Ballet of Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18041             In 2007 four Nanaimo‑ites received Juno nominations.  The Booker Award went to a local writer, and the Canadian ballroom dance champion, Zillion Wong, is from and still lives in Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18042             Our local school jazz bands are among the highest winning bands in the National Music Fest Competition.  They have spread the rumour that it is something in the water.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18043             We have a series of professionals festivals, the Nanaimo Art Galleries original works of Island artists, the Vancouver Island Symphony on the Harbour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18044             We recently had a superb production of symphony and dance, which Zillion Wong was there, performing in Nanaimo and Comox to over 8,000 children and theatre audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18045             We have the Nanaimo Blues Festival, with international, national and local performers, including First Nations; the Vancouver Island Children's Festival and the Children's Book Festival, and on and on I can go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18046             Our professional theatre group does more than just good theatre.  They have commissioned and performed several original works recalling our fascinating history.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18047             We have a series on the Dunsmuir's, "Brother 12", the show best left buried about the Chinese and the burning of Chinatown in Nanaimo; "The Concubines Children", we did the play script and the play based on that very successful book.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18048             And of course our colourful mayor, Frank Ney, are a few examples.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18049             Our Port Theatre is nationally recognized and we shall soon be opening a Class A museum with a dedicated Cosalish First Nations exhibit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18050             All of this and the work this community will continue to do brought Nanaimo the distinction of being a cultural capital of Canada for 2008, and we shall be enjoying over 36 celebratory and legacy events throughout the year, showcasing a broad diversity of arts and cultures, including those of the Nanaimo First Nation, the Francophone and multicultural communities.  That is on top of the many arts, culture and sports events usually occurring during the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18051             As a matter of fact, as an indication of the depth of cultural activity on the island, the designation of Cultural Capital of Canada has been won by three Island communities:  Victoria in 2005, Comox Valley in 2007 and Nanaimo in 2008.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18052             But all this work and all this energy and all this creativity, which amounts to a cultural economy, is greatly diminished without the greater awareness outside of Nanaimo.  Nanaimo and the Vancouver Island region has historically been underserved by radio with the calibre of programming which the CBC delivers.  As one of the fastest‑growing regions, that is even more so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18053             I commend the CBC for recognizing this deficiency and for their efforts to remedy it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18054             Nanaimo, because of its demographic and lifestyle, is a radio listening community.  The CBC is recognized and respected for their support and encouragement of young and emerging artists, and with their presence in this region the CBC will give them a fairer opportunity to succeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18055             Yesterday I heard a comment made about arts other than music on the radio, and the comment was, "How do we get ballet on the radio?  I do not know."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18056             Well, from the programming I have heard and enjoyed on CBC, this is exactly what CBC does.  They get all the arts of disciplines across the airwaves: music, dance, theatre, visual artists, modern, classic, contemporary, new world, old world, everything, through their interviews, their profiling, reports on events, and they play music, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18057             As my son reminded me this morning, he said "Mom" ‑‑ he lives here in Vancouver now.  He says, "Mom, Nanaimo is still only known for bathtub races and the Nanaimo bars, both the eating kind and the drinking kind."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18058             But there is a lot more that we want the world to know about us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18059             I believe we not only need the existing programming of CBC but we also need the ability to get our news out to a broader audience, nationally and internationally.  We need and deserve better coverage of the calibre and experience of the CBC and the addition of another commercial station will surely not meet our needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18060             I understand that this may be the last FM radio frequency available in our region and consequently it is the last opportunity to correct this deficient service.  So I urge you most strongly to approve the CBC application for the FM frequency to serve Nanaimo and the area, and we shall thank you deeply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18061             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18062             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18063             We will now hear the presentation of Gung Haggis Productions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18064             MR. WONG:  Hello.  My name is Todd Wong.  I am President of Gung Haggis Productions, which is a small, little company that puts together Robbie Burns Chinese New Year Dinner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18065             Yes, you can laugh about that, but again what I emphasize is that B.C.'s pioneering cultures were not English and French, our two official languages of Canada, but in B.C. our pioneers have been Scottish and Chinese.  They built this province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18066             Getting that story out is important.  Guess what, some of its roots are right here in Nanaimo, because of the Dunsmuirs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18067             Robert Dunsmuir, one of our Premiers of British Columbia, was a coal baron.  At one point he was the fourth richest man in North America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18068             Who did he employ in his mines?  Chinese labourers.  And they didn't like each other sometimes, but now they do.  They have inter‑married.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18069             This is one of the stories that CBC carries.  This is what we share.  When we talk about culture diversity, it is not little ethnic pockets across this land.  But did you know that Nunavut, the new territory, actually has 11 different official languages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18070             I was interviewed on The Current, speaking about should Canada have another third official language.  These are some of the stories that bind us across this country as a nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18071             One of the things I do in Vancouver here is as a community activist.  I am also co‑President of the Asian‑Canadian Writers Workshop.  I am President of the historic Joy Kogawa House, Director for the Canadian Club Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18072             How do we share our stories with Nanaimo?  How do we share the stories of Nanaimo with the rest of Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18073             My great, great grandfather, Reverend Chan Yu Tan, was a Chinese Methodist lay preacher in Nanaimo and he was the subject of a CBC Newsworld documentary that occurred last year, last summer.  We went to Nanaimo to interview my grand‑aunt who grew up with her grandfather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18074             How do we get these stories out?  Having a CBC Bureau in Nanaimo would be a great start.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18075             The competition for radio space is very busy.  There are a lot of applicants for commercial radio.  I don't know if, you know, I would rather listen to another Rolling Stones song again or can I listen to Wayson Choy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18076             What Camilla was saying, "Things Best Left Buried" was commissioned for our Nanaimo by the playwright Marty Wong who lives in Alberta.  But to learn that Nanaimo once had one of the largest thriving Chinatowns in this country and was burned down to the ground, it's terrible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18077             When she mentioned Denise Chong, she is one of my heroes.  Did you know that she also used to work as a writer in Pierre Trudeau's office?  But her story, "The Concubine's Children" was set in Nanaimo and they put on this play.  And people from Vancouver, we got excited and we went over to see it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18078             How did we hear about it?  Through CBC radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18079             There is another time when the Chinese‑Canadian Historical Society here, we started putting on history theatres.  We went to Vancouver Museum to put one on.  The next place we put one on, Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18080             Why?  There is a good strong history there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18081             Also, Imogene Lim is one of the professors at Malaspina University College.  My grand‑aunt came and I had my display about the Reverend Chan Legacy and she is looking at the pictures going, "That's my granddad.  That's my mother.  How did you get these pictures?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 18082             How did she get there?  It was a good question, because one of her friends was listening to CBC radio and they heard our story on "North by Northwest" covering issues from across Canada ‑‑ sorry, from British Columbia, and she said, "Helen, we have to go see the show."  That is how she heard about what was happening in Nanaimo.  It was very important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18083             Also, speaking there was Janice Wong.  She is my cousin.  She was also featured on the documentary "The Chan Legacy".  And also there is a CBC documentary called "Journey to Lotus Land".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18084             Janice wrote a book called "CHOW Journeys from China to Canada:  Memories of Food and Family".  It is because her family also came from Nanaimo, and when she does book readings there, the community comes out and supports it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18085             How do we share the stories of Nanaimo?  This is a really good way to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18086             I am fond of saying that meaningfulness is important to life and for radio listeners in Nanaimo and environs having a CBC Bureau, having CBC access makes a big, important step.  There are people across this Canada, my friends, who have said to me, "Look, I'm mad about the CBC.  We pay money, we are taxpayers, and we can't get it."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18087             Canada needs a strong national radio programming.  The CRTC is important to make sure that happens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18088             So we have to ask you to make sure that Canada and the CBC are fulfilling their mandate of being responsible to citizens across this country and not to leave Nanaimo, one of the fastest‑growing populations, out of the loop.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18089             Last year a man contacted me.  He came from Nanaimo and he said, "I have heard about Gung Haggis Fat Choy.  I would like to have a Robbie Burns Chinese New Year Dinner in Nanaimo."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18090             Why?  He is Scottish.  He came from Scotland.  His wife is Chinese.  Their children are growing up both Chinese and Scottish and especially Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18091             We want to create more Canadian events in Nanaimo and to share what goes on back‑and‑forth.  I think this is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18092             Rick Scott lives on Protection Island.  Internationally known.  He has created a wonderful CD called "The Five Elements" with Harry Wong, who is like the Raffi of Hong Kong.  Imagine.  CBC has played that.  Rick Scott and Harry Wong came and performed at Gung Haggis Fat Choy when we had Shelagh Rogers, who now lives on Gabriola Island, as co‑host.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18093             This is Canadian culture being made, happening, and we don't get put on AAA radio format.  I'm sorry, but CBC gives an opportunity to emerging artists of ballet, of everything, of writing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18094             Ruth Ozaki ‑‑ I have to show you this.  You have read "My Year of Meats"?  Well, maybe you don't all live in Vancouver.  This was the one book that won Vancouver Choice for the Vancouver Public Library this past year.  Ruth Ozaki lives on Cortes Island.  We have a thriving writers community up and down the Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18095             Writers Festival.  Wayson Choy gave a great talk this past summer.  Wayson Choy lives in Toronto, but he grew up here in Vancouver and Governor General's Award Nominee, "All That Matters".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18096             We have to make things meaningful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18097             Also, this past Tuesday was featured on the Global News television TV news.  They are doing a week‑long story about what is important in B.C., what makes B.C. world‑class?  They said cultural diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18098             They interviewed me because I also run Dragonboat races, about Gung Haggis Fat Choy, our intercultural concept that CBC really gets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18099             I have to ask you:  Did you know that Nanaimo has one of the largest, fastest growing dragonboat races in this country?  They are not just being known for bathtub races; they want to be also known about dragonboat races, because it is a way of bringing all the aspects, all the community, all the ethnic groups together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18100             So to help this flourish, please support this petition, this proposal by the CBC for Gabriola Island, because CBC has enriched my life.  Nanaimo stories have enriched my life, my stories about Nanaimo have enriched Nanaimo's life and this is important, I mean, how we can connect the small town, the small city stories from across the country.  People relate to that, whether it is going to be in Gander, Newfoundland or Outlook, Saskatchewan.  People can relate to these stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18101             Whenever I travel across Canada, when I have heard Peter Zosky when I have been driving across Idaho, I can feel proud about that.  When I heard Shelagh Rogers, I was in salt Spring Island.  It was during the CBC strike.  It was so heartbreaking, but it was so familiar to hear Shelagh's voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18102             I have to tell you that when the CBC was on strike ‑‑ excuse me, when the CBC was locked out, because there is a big difference there ‑‑ people across this country were upset and we realized in Vancouver how much we lost because we couldn't access the CBC; arts communities, the non‑profit communities who really use the CBC to tell their stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18103             This is part of what holds this country together and shares us together.  It is part of our nation building.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18104             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18105             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, panel, for your truly heartfelt interventions.  I can feel your passion is palpable and I appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18106             I think we are in a difficult spot.  The problem with Vancouver and B.C. is the scarcity of spectrum.  If we could, if we had all the frequencies, if the topography of our land were different, you know, everyone could get a licence; everyone could be on radio.  But that is just not the reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18107             I think you have added to the debate today of we really are talking about the frequency 104.1 and why it should be used to ‑‑ is there a greater gain to use it to serve the sort of 100,000 versus adding to the diversity of music on the mainland where the population is a million?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18108             It is a difficult decision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18109             Now, Mr. ‑‑ I wrote all your names down if I can find it.  Mr. Gaze ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18110             MR. GAZE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The CBC always attracts a lot of debate, and that's great.  That's great for the country that people are engaged about our public broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18112             We have interventions, yes, in support, but there were also a substantial number of interventions expressing concern and opposing and saying that if CBC is moved to the FM band that they will mow longer receive CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18113             What do you think we should say to those interveners?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18114             MR. GAZE:  I'm sorry, I don't think I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18115             Why couldn't they get the other band on FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18116             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because of the topography.  When CBC switches to the FM band ‑‑ now, this is what they are telling us ‑‑ they will no longer be ‑‑ the FM frequency is a line of sight and because of the topography the AM band is currently more efficient in covering all of the area.  And when the AM band is switched off and CBC is reliant on the FM band, then because of their location, they will not receive coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18117             MR. GAZE:  Well, that's puzzling to me.  I'm not really in a position to respond to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18118             I believed that the FM band will be the cure‑all for everybody to get a good, clear signal of CBC.  That was my understanding.  I'm not an engineer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18119             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18120             MR. GAZE:  But I am told that it will be very much better here in Vancouver.  I can't speak for the rest of the province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18121             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18122             Can I just follow up with one question first, Mr. Wong, and then I will get to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18123             I just wanted to confirm that you were talking about difficulty of reception in Kitsilano.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18124             MR. GAZE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18125             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are talking about in your case it is Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18126             MR. GAZE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18127             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right, great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18128             Sorry, Mr. Wong, you had something to add?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18129             MR. WONG:  Well, part of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18130             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your microphone, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18131             MR. WONG:  Sorry.  Microphone, here we go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18132             Part of the proposal for CBC is also to install a radio transmitter on Gabriola Island.  That will help improve the service and it is going to be much better reaching.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18133             So I think that answers the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18134             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think yesterday when the applicants came back, there is a lot of debate on what options are open and what options can be pursued, and then there is the question of what pockets will be left unserved if you switch to the FM or if you remain in AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18135             It is something that we have to sort through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18136             Yes, Mr. Unger?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18137             MR. UNGER:  Yes, if and when the CBC does move to FM in Vancouver, we would be one of those pockets that would not be served unless we get the frequency available from Gabriola Island, which is within five to seven kilometres from Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18138             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By the way, Mr. Unger, I agree with you.  I have probably been to Nanaimo more often than I have been to Victoria, and my husband and I and our family often say that it is one of the best‑kept secrets.  In terms of the vicinity to the amenities and what B.C. has to offer, it is a very attractive and vibrant community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18139             MR. UNGER:  And the secret is getting out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18140             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18141             I think the truth of the matter, too, is every community, large or small, is important to the country and to CBC.  Even I think in CBC's own studies they were referring to ‑‑ and I believe it was a cutoff point of about 100,000 in terms of when they were looking at the cities that they want to ‑‑ I'm not putting this right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18142             In their study of what they called "City of Consequence To Serve Now", Nanaimo is not quite there yet in terms of size.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18143             Why do you ‑‑ do you want to get one more kick at the cat of why you think this scarce frequency that we have should be dedicated to serve a small community rather than be of benefit to a larger community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18144             MR. UNGER:  Nanaimo, according to the latest census, is 80,000 population.  However, within the regional District, which is scattered right around the Nanaimo and within very few miles, is close to 150,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18145             If we take the rest of Vancouver Island North of the Malahat into consideration, we are talking about a population of 348,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18146             So the figure for Nanaimo itself for the city limits would be under that, but when you take the Nanaimo region, which would be covered very well by a new signal, that would be well over the 150,000 mark and closer to the 350,000 mark.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18147             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think it was Mr. Hanson who mentioned the stations currently serving Nanaimo, and you said that the community station and then  I believe Pattison has The Q! and then Rogers has THE OCEAN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18148             Do those stations offer programming that are local to Nanaimo?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18149             MR. HANSON:  Yes.  I think the two commercial stations, for instance, certainly have local news and weather and sports and things like that.  But, as we all know, public radio like CBC carries a whole range of informational programming that never makes it on commercial airwaves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18150             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18151             MR. HANSON:  Our CHLY, the Malaspina community station, certainly carries local programming as well.  But a local community station obviously doesn't provide the profile to the community beyond the community, and for the full range and scope of what is going on in the community that is what the CBC station would carry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18152             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't know whether you had a chance to be here when CBC was presenting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18153             MR. HANSON:  No, I wasn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18154             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18155             Now, when we compared the program schedule of Vancouver and Victoria ‑‑ as you know, what CBC is proposing to do is to really replace the Vancouver programming that you will be getting with the Victoria programming by the 104.1 frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18156             The programming from the Victoria station will still be regional, and we are talking about I believe it was about 28.5 hours of programming per week that would be different from the programming you currently receive from Vancouver.  The main differences will be during the morning drive and the afternoon drive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18157             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18158             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So we are really replacing one regional program with another regional program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18159             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18160             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a comment on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18161             You are replacing ‑‑ about 90 to 100 hours programming per week would still be the same as what we get in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18162             MR. HANSON:  I think the significant difference there is that people that live on Vancouver Island relate as Islanders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18163             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18164             MR. HANSON:  So regional programming out of Victoria has significantly more relevance to the rest of the Island listeners than any programming out of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18165             As my colleague Camilla Tang so eloquently said, we also see this as a critical stepping stone towards the future because of where we see the Island going.  So the frequency and the tower give CBC Victoria the first step towards providing more programming in the Victoria agenda that has relevance beyond Victoria because there are people beyond Victoria that can actually listen to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18166             Second, we are looking forward to them being able to put a Bureau together for Nanaimo eventually so that we would have a Nanaimo Bureau producing Nanaimo programming that could be shared on the airwaves of B.C. and across the country and internationally which gives, again, more profile to this growing dynamic community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18167             So I think my comment is this isn't about 2008; this is about the next 30, 40, 50 years.  And as we are growing on the island and the island economy are we going to continually be strapped to programming that isn't relevant to us, or are we going to open the door for the level of service in the Nanaimo and Vancouver Island region that we really need now and certainly will need even more in the future?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18168             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you aware of the intervention by the Gabriola Radio Society?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18169             MR. HANSON:  I am aware that they are hoping to be able to have a community station linked in somehow, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18170             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a comment about that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18171             MR. HANSON:  Well, we are certainly supportive of community radio.  There again, it serves an interesting niche in the community that isn't and probably never will be served by commercial radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18172             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18173             I will ask at this point if my colleagues have any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18174             Commissioner Williams, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18175             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, panellists, and welcome to our hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18176             I have a question particularly for the two gentlemen from Nanaimo, Mr. Unger and Mr. Hanson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18177             In terms of transportation links, say the number of ferries coming in and out of Nanaimo, what is the primary destination?  Where is the heaviest traffic run?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18178             MR. UNGER:  Without having the information at hand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18179             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It doesn't have to be exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18180             MR. UNGER: ‑‑ the ferries run every two hours in both directions.  It is one of the main links to the mainland from Vancouver and is the only link north of the Malahat for the B.C. Ferries System.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18181             The Nanaimo Airport is now in an expansion to lengthen the runway to the point that we will be able to accommodate 737 aircraft.  We are the transportation hub of the Island north of the Malahat.  That is one of the backbones of our economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18182             Many of the people who come on the ferries, during the summer, especially the tourist traffic, are headed to all parts of the island, especially the Pacific Rim National Park on the very far west side of the Island and Tofino and Ucluelet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18183             The Comox Valley has really been vibrant in recent years and their link is with an airline direct flights to Calgary and Edmonton.  So it is becoming a very, very important link to the mainland and to the Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18184             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  So your primary connections are with the mainland or Vancouver, I guess Tsawwassen or Horseshoe Bay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18185             MR. UNGER:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18186             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How much of the visitors traffic that comes to your area comes from Victoria down the highway as opposed to coming in on these ferries?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18187             Would you say the ferries bring more people or the highway from Victoria?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18188             MR. UNGER:  When it comes to the tourist traffic, we have been encouraging a circle route or a triangle where you can go from Vancouver to Nanaimo to Victoria and back.  Because of the Victoria ferry connection, that makes it very easy.  Or the reverse of course, going to Victoria first and then coming up Island and taking a different ferry and having different views.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18189             As having been born on the Prairies myself, that is akin to an ocean cruise which many people view that way on their first sailing between.  So if you can go through all the islands on the Victoria route and then come back on the other route through Nanaimo, that makes for a very interesting, varied trip for anyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18190             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, I have taken it many times, many of them.  It just seems to me that the Horseshoe Bay ‑‑ well, the largest ferries, B.C. Ferries are putting their largest ferries on the Horseshoe Bay and Nanaimo run.  There must be a traffic reason for them doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18191             MR. UNGER:  There is, and the new ferry, which will be going into service next month, the first of the three has been put on the Nanaimo run.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18192             The second new one, which has left the shipyard already on its way to Vancouver Island, will be serving the Nanaimo Duke Point to Tsawwassen run.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18193             And the third one that is being built right now will be serving Victoria‑Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18194             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So two‑thirds of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18195             MR. UNGER:  Two of the new ones are coming to Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18196             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Two of the new three will be servicing a route from Vancouver essentially to Nanaimo?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18197             MR. UNGER:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18198             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's in terms of tourism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18199             I imagine there are people that commute between the centres.  Would more people commute to Vancouver or to Victoria?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18200             MR. HANSON:  I think there certainly are more people commuting to Victoria than to Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18201             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18202             MR. HANSON:  Although we are seeing ‑‑ I mean, Nanaimo has become so attractive because of its central location that we are seeing more and more people going in every direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18203             Just as an anecdotal example, for instance, in 2006 there were 90,000 float plane passengers between Nanaimo and Vancouver and in 2007 there are 160,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18204             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  That is the next question I was going to actually, following up on these transportation links.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18205             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18206             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So do you have the same sort of transportation link with air to Victoria with that same traffic level?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18207             MR. HANSON:  It is actually being worked on right now.  That is one of the odd things on Vancouver Island is that there is no north‑south airplane service; it is all east‑west.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18208             But the vehicular traffic between Victoria and points north has been growing dramatically over the last decade.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18209             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  With the bulk of the people coming to the Island coming from the mainland or Vancouver, I would like to explore a little more why you feel you have a stronger connection with Victoria than Vancouver and if you would be basically just switching a CBC signal from Vancouver for one from Victoria and then you say, "Well, perhaps we can get a Nanaimo Bureau."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18210             Well, could you not get a Nanaimo Bureau from CBC Vancouver?  Like CBC is CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18211             Could you answer questions in that area?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18212             MR. HANSON:  Again, I think the Island‑centricity of sort of the psychology of the Island culture is something unto itself.  I don't have my B.C. history all in front of me, but in some respects Vancouver Island is barely part of British Columbia in the minds of people that are on the Island and that culture, it does tend to be more Island‑centric.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18213             I think part of it also is that the sheer massive size of Vancouver is daunting to the Islanders from the standpoint of being able to get their voice in edgewise.  So a Bureau coverage coming out of Victoria has the sense, just because of the matching in population ‑‑ the Island population is about the same as the Greater Victoria population ‑‑ that there is a sense of evenness there relative to the potential for coverage and expansion of our story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18214             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Unger...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18215             MR. UNGER:  Yes.  I believe, too, that it's a two‑way street.  An Upper Island influence can improve the programming for Victoria as well and for the Victoria listenership give them a broader range of programming when they hear the material from Up Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18216             This is another thing we are looking at, is feeding into the Victoria market rather than just receiving and going even beyond the Victoria market.  By having a CBC connection in Nanaimo we would be able to, in some programming, feed the national scene as well and get right across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18217             But I think it is important to look at not what Victoria will feed to us, but just as important what the Victoria market will get as a result of the Up Island being able to connect into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18218             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So from a City of Nanaimo perspective, then, you see a bigger opportunity of marketing Nanaimo to Victoria rather than the much larger Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18219             MR. UNGER:  I don't think it makes really that much difference.  I think it is a matter of technical ability, as well, for the CBC as opposed to ‑‑ however, I think the opportunity to get programming on a Victoria transmission or Victoria studio would be greater because of the larger amount of input in the Vancouver market, where they have more organizations and local Vancouver community events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18220             And being able to get into the programming in Vancouver would be more difficult than to get into the Victoria programming from our standpoint.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18221             MR. HANSON:  Can I speak to that as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18222             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Hanson...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18223             MR. HANSON:  Yes.  I think there are two things here, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18224             From the standpoint of our destination marketing for ongoing regular business in Nanaimo, Victoria is a much stronger market for us than Vancouver is, just again because we are on the Island and the convenience and people in Victoria think about coming Up Island in a way that people in the Lower Mainland don't think about because of the water barrier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18225             I think the other thing to say is that I don't have any statistics in front of me, but it would be ‑‑ I think it is a jump in assumption to assume that the millions of people trafficking through Nanaimo on B.C. Ferries are coming from Vancouver, because huge numbers of those, they are not people from Vancouver; they are people that are coming to the Island via Vancouver from other places.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18226             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, I agree.  I agree with that, but they may have been listening to CBC in Vancouver on their way there, I guess is what I'm saying ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18227             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18228             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ not waiting until they got there to see if they could find CBC Victoria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18229             MR. HANSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18230             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18231             MS TANG:  Yes, I would like to contribute something from the arts as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18232             The kind of work that is produced, a lot of it being original in Nanaimo, is also of great interest to Victoria.  Our Children's Festival also performs in Victoria because there is no other Children's Festival on the Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18233             Our symphony, the work our symphony is doing; our theatre, as I said, with the Dunsmuirs.  The Dunsmuir family built Craigdarroch Castle and Hatley Park.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18234             The connections, they are more relevant in Victoria, hence they cover our work.  And so we will get better coverage and be able to feed our stories more frequently than if it was the Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18235             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18236             Our Chair, Chair del Val, was talking to you about if CBC was granted this application in its entirety and they removed the AM channel, that many listeners on Vancouver Island and in the marine community would suffer.  So a large percentage of our interventions dealt with that issue, mainly because the 690 AM band, as she was explaining through the topography, can reach the northern tip of Vancouver Island with little difficulty, whereas an FM is kind of confined to a very smaller area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18237             So part of the price, I guess, if that was awarded and you got what you wanted, is many of your neighbours north of you would no longer have that service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18238             MR. UNGER:  Again, that is a technical question.  However, my understanding is that there would be repeaters in the various communities to bring that signal to other communities as well, all the way up the Island right to the northern tip and even going as far as Powell River, which is on the mainland, but more connected to the Island than anywhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18239             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18240             I appreciate your answers.  I have attended Bard on the Beach.  It is a wonderful event and I will see if I can find, what is it, Gung Ho ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18241             MR. WONG:  Gung Haggis Fat Choy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18242             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, I will see if I can attend that next year.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18243             MR. WONG:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18244             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before I forget, I just wanted to make a comment and then I have another question for Mr. Unger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18245             I actually remember in the 70s, late 70s or early 80s, bringing the first Dragonboat Festival to Vancouver because I was on the Chinese Cultural Centre Board then.  I also remember the first time I saw in the papers on Gung Haggis Fat Choy, on how clever I thought that was.  So, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18246             Mr. Unger, just coming back to the point of Gabriola Island, we don't expect interveners to read what we have to read.  Now, Gabriola Island did intervene against CBC and one of the reasons is that basically they also want the 104.1 frequency.  They basically want to reserve it in the event that their community station gets going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18247             So that brings me back to the point where you were saying that we are really hoping ‑‑ and I think CBC is hoping and we are all hoping ‑‑ that there would be sufficient funds to establish a Bureau for CBC in Victoria.  But the reality is that we don't know.  We don't know when or whether that could happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18248             So if you are building for 30 or 40 years out ‑‑ I agree we should always think to the future ‑‑ how fair is it too sort of reserve the use of a scarce resource for something that may or may not happen down the road versus dedicating the use of that resource to where we know there is an immediate need?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18249             MR. HANSON:  I am a little bit confused, because you said Mr. Unger but you have been looking at me and I am Mr. Hanson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hanson, yes, I'm sorry.  I'm very sorry, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18251             MR. HANSON:  All right.

‑‑‑  Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18252             MR. HANSON:  A difficult question, obviously.  I think we have to think in broad terms.  While I am certainly supportive of community radio, community radio, put in the context of an improved, broadened CBC opportunity in the mid‑Island region, it is an apples and oranges question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18253             I personally couldn't support another local community radio station over the opportunity to get our story out nationally, internationally and regionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18254             So that is my simple answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18255             But if it was a question between another local station ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18257             MR. HANSON:  ‑‑ and more content from Vancouver...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18258             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You see, that is exactly the difficulty.  You have Gabriola Island, then you have Nanaimo, then you have Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18259             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18260             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, it is almost like a stepped analogy of the problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18261             MR. HANSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18262             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do my colleagues have any other questions?  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18263             We really appreciate your time in intervening, as I hope that you can tell that we take all the interventions very seriously as you have taken the time and we are grateful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18264             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18265             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18266             I would now ask MuddCats, Stonegrill and Pacific Audio Visual Institute to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18267             THE SECRETARY:  We will just take a short five‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0951 / Suspension à 0951

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1010 / Reprise à 1010

LISTNUM 1 \l 18268             THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18269             We will start with the presentation of MuddCats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18270             Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18271             MR. PIGGIN:  Hello, my name is Dave Piggin.  I play with a band called the MuddCats and I am from Kamloops, British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18272             I respect the privilege of coming to speak to you today and I'm very excited.  I would like to thank Frank Torres and Ed Torres and the people in their team for giving me this opportunity to speak to you.  I have the greatest respect for what is happening here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18273             I have three items that I have handed to Jade.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18274             One is the CD from our ‑‑ this is original blues CD.  I have a yellow booklet, pamphlet from The Yale, which is a local blues club, seven days a week blues in Vancouver.  I also have a general gist of what I am going to say written out on this document here for reference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18275             I am going to read right straight from it.  This is separate and different from what I wrote in my letter of intervention which for public purposes was sent to you.  Okay?  I'm not trying to repeat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18276             Emerging Canadian blues artists do not get radio play on commercial radio in Canada.  We do get some play on College/University Radio Stations where they are prepared to take risks and be innovative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18277             The purpose of my being here today is to witness to you my experience as an emerging blues artist on behalf of myself and Brad Davis and the applicant.  Brad Davis is my co‑author and he lives in Kamloops with me.  He is originally from South Carolina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18278             In doing this, I'm speaking for many blues artists who are not here today and, by the way, sent me e‑mails of encouragement and excitement, hoping that I will be successful in talking to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18279             My experience is directly related to the interior of British Columbia and, to some extent, the Vancouver scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18280             The natural progression for somebody like myself would be to come from Kamloops and tried to get my stuff played in places like The Yale or the Fairview or the Cottage Bistro Club here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18281             In terms of our CD, in 2005 Brad and I opened for Sue Foley in Kamloops at a Blues Network event.  Sue Foley is a Canadian guitar player and she is a real wizard.  She plays way better than I do.  Due to the success of this event, Brad and I decided to do an original blues CD.  We worked on the CD writing for about eight months and released the CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18282             I actually got the dates wrong on there.  It should not be 2008.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18283             Our CD was well received in Kamloops and in Kamloops where there is about 80,000 people, I have sold personally 1,000 CDs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18284             In terms of radio play, the X92.5 radio station, a University radio station ‑‑ which, by the way, just increase their power a few days ago ‑‑ managed by Brant Zwicker, was an excellent supporter and did a one‑hour show with live interviews to promote our CD.  They also include us on their playlist and we get played at that radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18285             He has connections where he has helped us get played on other university stations occasionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18286             After hearing our CD, Peter Olsen and Tim Tyler, who, by the way, are DJs in Kamloops, are big blues fans and on Radio NL in Kamloops started a new program called "Home Grown" as a result of hearing our CD and solicited CDs from local artists which were featured in a one‑hour program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18287             Peter told us that our CD was the best CD to date to come out of Kamloops, and we are going to support our CD.  We also received strong support from CIFM 98.3 in Kamloops from Stan Bailey and Henry Small.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18288             Henry small, you might recall, is from Prism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18289             They interviewed us and played our CD in the morning shows and at 5 o'clock in prime time for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18290             Brant Zwicker also has shown support for us.  He has a syndicated blues show that goes throughout Canada.  That blues show is syndicated from Kamloops and recorded in Kamloops, and it is called "At The Crossroad".  Because of it, we are able to be played on Brant Zwicker's show, and our CD has been played on 70 stations in Canada ‑‑ more than 70 actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18291             Radio play outside of Kamloops other than on the syndication show is non‑existent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18292             An interesting thing is we got an e‑mail one time from a radio station in Croatia and we were number two in 2005, I think in July, in Croatia and we can't get played in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18293             A person in my office where I work, he is a forester from Croatia and he said in Croatia that station would be probably broadcasting between 500 and 1,000 kilometres radius:  totally different than what we would experience here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18294             The following is a brief list of comments and points for your information and review.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18295             Our CD is a professional quality CD.  It is complete with a 16‑page booklet, recipes.  In fact, one of the recipes is "Catfish Bites", which is one of Brad's grandfather's recipes from South Carolina, so it is handed down from generations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18296             It was recorded to a high standard, including a 16‑page booklet, lyrics, recipes and a meaningful prose.  I have given you copies here so you can review it, not because I am paying you off, but at my expense.  This is my evidence so that you can listen to it and see if you think it is radio worthy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18297             I would like to point out that the producer of our CD also produced a CD from Kamloops for a Christian CD and won a Juno for it.  So the quality is here in Kamloops and in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18298             Our blues CD is not played on commercial radio in Vancouver or any other location on the Lower Mainland.  We could not get past the Secretary to the Music Director.  Usually we are told:  "We do not play blues, we do not play local CDs and we are not interested in hearing or playing original music, let alone original blues."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18299             In one case talking to a DJ, they would give him an opportunity to seek alternate employment if he played our stuff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18300             Our CD is played in blues clubs.  A friend of mine from Kelowna, a drummer, was at The Yale in Vancouver on Granville and Drake a few weeks ago and when he walked in the door, our CD was playing on the house stereo.  The same friend was in Moe's Blues in Vernon, another blues place in the interior, a week later he walked in the door and our CD was again playing on the house stereo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18301             Most commercial radio have a set format and do not vary from that format.  They are not prepared to take risks with our new blues music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18302             Salmon Arm Radio would not play our CD because it was programmed along with many other stations in the Okanagan and the Kootenay region.  I think they said 20 stations or something, but plus 10 anyway.  The DJ thought the CD was very good, wanted to know where we were playing and when we were playing in Salmon Arm because he was going to come and see us.  We played there and he came down to see our thing, but he still couldn't play our CD and he liked their music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18303             In Vernon Station they would not take original artists, especially since we were from the Thompson region and they were the Okanagan, and they won't play things except from the Okanagan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18304             Kelowna Radio Station had a set format and would not vary from that format.  They would not play our CD, even though we were playing at the local Blue Gater Club, which is a very well‑known blues establishment in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18305             To give you a sense of an aside thing that came up to my mind having breakfast this morning, there is a lack of diversity in the music that is being played on commercial radio.  My friend has a 14‑year‑old daughter and the minute she gets in my truck, she turns the radio on, hits the channels until she finds something she likes.  If she doesn't, the next thing she does is put her iPod on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18306             I think we have no diversity in the radio and it is being preprogrammed for one location for a big chunk of the province, and it is not including blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18307             If CDs are not played on the radio, the record stores will not carry my CD.  Very fortunately, there is a great organization called Play Entertainment, a small chain, and they will carry our CD.  I can't get it into HMV and I can't get it into A&B Sound and I can't get it into anything else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18308             So commercial radio stations have the reputation for not taking risks.  They play it safe and they protect income and listeners.  In fact, the listener base may be weakening because they are not prepared to step out of their format, as I commented about my 14‑year‑old friend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18309             Without radio play, income for me from SOCAN is minimal and the income accrues to other international artists and talent and not to people in Canada.  We are now focusing our attention on download formats such as iTunes, Napster and Rhapsody where we have a worldwide download capability and have an opportunity to make up for the lack of radio play in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18310             Right now we are getting downloaded in the U.K. and in the United States.  Since we did it like last fall and there is a couple, three‑month delay before you find out, I don't know where else we are being downloaded at the moment.  But we can get printouts if you wanted to know for your purposes at some other date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18311             That's why in the stuff I gave Jade I also gave business cards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18312             If our music is not played, we will not receive royalties.  If our music is not played, it will not be picked up under a mechanical licence by another artist which creates revenue for me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18313             If our music is not heard, it will not be tracked to a movie or other media.  Again, income is lost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18314             A perfect example is I was talking to a guy down at a SOCAN event and he did a song that was recorded and played to the Highlander episode ‑‑ Highlander at that time I believe was produced here ‑‑ and he gets paid for the fact that they are using his song.  He gets paid again when it is tracked to the movie.  He gets paid again when it is played.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18315             Six years later after that one was syndicated worldwide, he is still getting revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18316             We do not rely on grants or subsidies.  We did our CD with our own lunch money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18317             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry, can you please conclude.  Your 10 minutes is over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18318             MR. PIGGIN:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18319             In conclusion, original Canadian blues is a vibrant part of the Vancouver culture and is not represented in the commercial radio.  Canadian blues artists do not have a significant voice in terms of radio play.  This creates a systemic barrier to Canadian artists and prevents the growth of a viable economic opportunity for original Canadian blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18320             I recommend the Frank Torres application be accepted so that emerging blues artists can have a place to showcase their creative talents, and I recommend that the Frank Torres application be accepted so that new economic opportunities can be made available to emerging Canadian blues artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18321             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18322             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18323             Now we will hear the presentation of Pacific Audio Visual Institute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18324             Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18325             MR. LAVIN:  My name is Tom Lavin and I am the Director of Pacific Audio Visual Institute which is a private post‑secondary college licensed and accredited under PCTIA of the province here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18326             I have also been involved in communication, having started the first private Internet provider service in Western Canada.  I took that company public and subsequently went on to CEO of several other public companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18327             My position here is to support the Torres Brothers' application for a blues radio station by virtue of the fact that I am also the leader of the Powder Blues Band, which is a Canadian band for the last 30 years that has won the Juno Award in Canada and has won the W.C. Handy Award in the United States, has headlined the Montreux Jazz Festival in Switzerland, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18328             I am one of a handful of blues artists from Canada that sold in excess of a million records.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18329             Anecdotally, statistics will often not prove the viability of blues.  I will give you a brief example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18330             When I first recorded the first Powder Blues album in 1979 and I took it to all the record companies that were headquartered in Toronto at the time, I was told by them all blues didn't sell.  And one record company, CBS at the time, actually undertook a marketing study.  They spent a lot of money and some time and they came back with the results that my record might sell 5,000 copies if they were willing to invest about half a million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18331             So I sold a record out of the back of my station wagon and once it had achieved Gold status of 50,000 copies in Vancouver alone, all the Canadian record companies came back to me and said, "You probably need some help distributing."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18332             That album has gone on to sell more than a million copies and I have been through several record companies, watched their demise, and the band continues on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18333             What they call a weekend warrior, I also have a one‑month‑old new son, so I don't tour nearly as much as I used to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18334             The way I see it is you have the responsibility of figuring out who you want to give airwaves to and blues may be to your mind somewhat of a marginal music.  I am here to explain that maybe that is not the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18335             I have toured continually across Canada for 30 years and there are probably 40 to 50 major blues festivals in Canada.  By "major", I mean the Windsor Blues Festival can sometimes draw upwards of 100,000 people; the Blues Festival in Ottawa over a period of days similarly.  And we have a number of them here in the Lower Mainland and in the outreaches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18336             It is viable and there is a lot of ‑‑ there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of Canadian blues artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18337             So we have to look at:  Is there a market?  Will people listen to this?  Is it worth giving 1000 watts 89.3 to a format that is blues?  Is there viability here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18338             It is interesting to note that the only live music venue in the Lower Mainland that operates seven nights a week is a blues venue.  Now, any of us here in this room can mention dozens of subgroups of music and certainly we will have reggae artists from time to time or country artists or classical artists, but this is few and far between.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18339             My point is that there is a very roots oriented support for the blues and it is being severely under‑represented locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18340             In fact, most blues artists like myself or Colin James or Jeff Healey have to achieve recognition outside of Canada in order to be recognized here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18341             So absolutely in order to meet Canadian content, we have more than enough fine, world‑class blues artists that aren't receiving airplay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18342             Is there a market viability?  You know what, that is going to come down to programming, music programming and it is going to come down to smart station management, and I am not here with the facts as to whether the people who have this application have that sort of expertise.  But if it is managed properly and it is programmed properly, absolutely, there is no question of its viability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18343             Is there a cultural imperative for it?  I think there is.  I think that the blues is the basis for all of Western music; that it is really necessary if we are going to continue to generate quality artists ‑‑ and Canada does that in a wonderfully disproportionate measure to most other of the forward thinking nations.  Our young artists have to be exposed to the roots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18344             It is impossible to study calculus without studying geometry.  And all of jazz and all of fusion and all of Western pop music is based on blues, and it is an entry point.  People's ears develop over time.  It is an evolutionary process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18345             To have a blues station here is wonderful.  Personally, I have to try to get an ultra receiver and received 88.1 NPR, National Public Radio from Seattle, Tacoma which plays blues and jazz because we don't have anything that represents it here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18346             Occasionally there has been a licence who has been granted to a "jazz station" but it is usually elevator music and it fails quickly and they change format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18347             I think that if you grant this application for primarily a blues ‑‑ and I use that in the widest sense of the word, blues incorporating and including swing and jazz and bebop and all the other so important intellectual products of Western music ‑‑ that it will absolutely be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18348             I think that concludes my statements and I am happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18349             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18350             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Duncan, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18351             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I don't really have many questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18352             I think your presentations were very clear and passionate.  I used that word earlier today, many times actually, listening to the interveners, but I actually was personally very taken with the clip that the Torres people played in their presentation.  I thought, oh, this must be what I have been missing all my life and, interestingly enough, they did make a comment that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18353             MR. LAVIN:  Well, thank you so much for that comment.  It is great to hear it.  I hear it at every show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18354             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Do you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18355             MR. LAVIN:  "I didn't think I liked the blues until I heard you".  It is a wonderful thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18356             Thank you, all.  Thanks for letting me speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18357             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18359             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Piggin, just one question because you did make a point in your oral presentation to say that you didn't receive any grants for the CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18360             MR. PIGGIN:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18361             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Why do you not apply to FACTOR for financial assistance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18362             MR. PIGGIN:  I actually hadn't heard of FACTOR until the other day and then I talked to my partner, Brad, and apparently we don't get enough play that we would probably get a grant.  And then his verbal comment to me ‑‑ and I do not understand it totally ‑‑ is that he said "We might be able to get a thousand bucks if we cross Canada."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18363             The thousand bucks doesn't cover gas to Edmonton, you know, basically.  So for us, basically what it is is you can't tour.  You have to have a full‑time job, take your annual leave and go, and that is probably what we are going to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18364             The interesting thing is ‑‑ and this is like colossal, I can't even believe it ‑‑ he has made some friends, blues friends on the Internet, and there are people in Germany who want to pay us to go to Germany to do a tour when we can't really do a tour here in Canada because we can't get radio play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18365             It is very important, if I play in a town like Kelowna or something like that, to get a little radio play in advance of going.  That is a very powerful advertising thing.  It can't happen.  It won't happen.  But I can get played in Europe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18366             Pardon me for over‑speaking the artist, but there is an artist in Kamloops named Roxanne Hall.  She gets a significant amount of royalties out of Europe, but she cannot get her music played in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18367             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Obviously the contention there is because of the format restrictions that the radio operators have imposed upon themselves ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18368             MR. PIGGIN:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18369             COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ because we don't license formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18370             MR. PIGGIN:  Yes.  I do not know that anybody has done a view of the opportunity cost of the royalty loss that I would pay because they are playing "Crimson and Clover" for the 15th time that day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18371             Both myself and Tom ‑‑ and it's not because I want to be rich; I want to express myself.  This CD has my feelings on it and it has Brad's feelings on it, and I think there are very powerful things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18372             If I meet a blues believer that listens to blues, I do not have to sell my CD to them.  They say "original blues, buying it".  I have only had one CD returned out of 2,000 in recent time and that was because his wife wouldn't let him buy it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18373             I'm not being insulting; I'm just telling you that's the facts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18374             I would like to point out something ‑‑ I apologize ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18375             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  No.  Please, go right ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18376             MR. PIGGIN:  In this town there are people that are playing here in Vancouver that are legends in the blues and people do not know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18377             Tom Lavin is a legend.  I was privileged enough to be able to open for him in Kamloops.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18378             Jim Byrnes, who you saw earlier is a legend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18379             Amos Garrett.  Amos Garrett has a neat little story.  He did the guitar lines for a song called "Oasis at Midnight" for Maria Muldaur.  He gets this phone call in a hotel room somewhere in the States and here it is Stevie Wonder phoning him and telling him it's the best guitar lead he has ever heard in his whole life, and he had to hunt all over the States to find him to tell him that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18380             These are the people that are playing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18381             Long John Baldry.  Long John Baldry is from Vancouver here.  He played a lot with Tony Robertson and his group of people.  Long John Baldry, he stands on stage and he says, "You know, the first time I played this song I was with Eric"; Eric Clapton, because he is from England.  These are the beginners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18382             People like Lexus Corners Blues Band which started out in England, the people that got up on stage and asked to be able to play with him are Keith Richards and Mick Jagger.  That's how they started, playing blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18383             The first two blues CD albums of the Rolling Stones ‑‑ pardon me, the first two LPs are blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18384             Harry Manx, a Canadian artist, he is a deadly player.  Jerry Adolf is a first call session man here in this area.  Ellie Johnson is a major guitar player that is just building.  Brickhouse plays 200 nights probably a year here and is mainly in Vancouver.  They are known throughout the Interior.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18385             Tim Porter and Tim Hershey are deadly guitar players.  They are well known.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18386             That culture is not out there; it is not seen, and the systemic barrier of the commercial radio stations is the reason.  It is not because they are lazy, because they are producing all the time good, new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18387             Thank you very much for listening to my tirade.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18388             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  No, thank you very much for the information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18389             Thank you, those are all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18390             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18391             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm and your generosity, and I just can't wait until the day is over so we can see what the CD is all about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18392             MR. PIGGIN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18393             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18394             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18395             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  My question is sort of in this context and I am still mourning the loss of the King Eddy in Calgary, so I am familiar with the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18396             MR. PIGGIN:  You didn't have to stay there.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18397             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am only there one week out of three these days anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18398             What you have described is a sort of institutional barrier, but also more broadly perhaps a branding or marketing issue for the blues in terms of people saying, "Oh, that is what I have been listening to, I didn't know that was the blues."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18399             They have another image of the blues that is a barrier to having more widespread acceptance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18400             Given that in terms of this particular application, what gives you confidence to come forward as intervenors that this applicant will be able to market what the blues really are and maintain that successfully so that they won't feel the need three or four years down the road to change formats and draw themselves into the mix?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18401             MR. LAVIN: I would like to answer that question, if I might.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18402             I think that the blues remarkably has the most staying power of any type of western music.  It is a touchstone that constantly has to be revisited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18403             You know, a generation before me they thought Jimi Hendrix was roots and didn't realize that Jimi Hendrix, his roots were Willie Dixon and Muddy Waters and people like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18404             It is the trunk of the tree of western music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18405             In the same context that you wouldn't expect great painting students at Emily Carr to be able to become culturally advanced, having only been reared on black velvet paintings, they have to go and see the Masters and they have to understand what makes something classic and what makes something timeless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18406             Timeless is a creation that withstands the test of time by its very definition.  Certainly, you look at the biggest selling jazz album of all time is called "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis.  Now, we all regard Miles Davis as a jazz artist, but any student of music will tell you that that is all blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18407             Incidentally, the title of his subsequent album was called "All Blues".  He also did a "No Blues" album.  But all jazz starts there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18408             And what I mean by a format for blues radio would incorporate that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18409             Now, like I said when I made my brief comments, it is up to management and program directing and music directing to make sure that the quality is there, but blues speaks for itself.  It has its own ‑‑ what did John Labatt say?  "An honest brew makes its own friends".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18410             I think that certainly the blues at its best is sheer honesty.  It is the bottom line in human emotion.  It is universal.  It speaks to everyone.  And if it is represented in a quality way, it can't fail.  Certainly it hasn't in my experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18411             MR. PIGGIN:  If I could add to that just briefly, because I think he has nailed it, is in their application they said they want to have 30 per cent blues as in their licence document.  Okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18412             That takes a fairly significant challenge, and I'm sure that on many commercial things they would not want to be pinned to that in their licence document.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18413             I think they are going to be a little bit surprised, the owners, Frank Torres and his team, they are going to be surprised at the support they are going to get locally.  I think it is going to blow them away and I believe in other markets there will be a copycat application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18414             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All right.  Thank you very much.  Good luck with your career.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18415             MR. PIGGIN:  Thank you very much.  I appreciate your time and patience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18416             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18417             MR. PIGGIN:  Yes...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18418             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have one question for you ‑‑ I will start with a question for you, Mr. Piggin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18419             Can you tell me how it happened that you were played in Croatia and became number two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18420             MR. PIGGIN:  I don't actually know.  We actually don't.  The only thing we can think of is that an Armed Forces person took it over when they were doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18421             The other thing that catches you off guard ‑‑ and blues is maybe a little bit like jazz ‑‑ somebody gets a CD and they have to tell their friends.  They get a CD and they have to tell their friends, and you get a network of blues people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18422             I met a new blues guy who is a deadly guitar player, plays in his living room; doesn't do any recording.  He is an engineer and he builds sawmills all over the world.  He moved to Kamloops and I met him through another person and then you create a new network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18423             That is why in Kamloops we started a blues underground network, and at one point it had a thousand people.  In a town of 80,000, it has its own little thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18424             The Salmon Arm Roots and Blues Festival gets 10,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18425             MR. LAVIN:  There is actually a ring of blues DJs all over Europe.  It was initially western Europe and now incorporates eastern Europe, too.  There are about 60 of them.  I get their weekly playlists and it is quite surprising, there is hardly a week that goes by without a Canadian blues artist on it.  I am on it regularly and people like David Gogo and Sue Foley and Long John Baldry, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18426             Basically it is a moccasin telegraph sort of thing.  People that are really into the blues know the other people, and it is the only way that you can disseminate the material, because again it is generally ‑‑ it has been fringe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18427             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The playlist that you were talking about, that is kind of bittersweet, isn't it?  It is good that they made it so big elsewhere, but it is sad that we don't hear them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18428             MR. LAVIN:  Powder Blues has been released in a number of foreign countries, but we get play on an average each year of maybe 40 or 50 countries.  I can see that on my SOCAN statements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18429             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Lavin, I think everyone knows your song "Doing It Right on the Wrong Side of Town".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18430             MR. LAVIN:  I wrote that song.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18431             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and we hear that on radio.  Now, I asked the same question of Mr. Byrnes when he was here yesterday:  Do you still approach radio stations to have them play your other songs and if you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18432             MR. LAVIN:  I don't even approach record companies.  I sell directly off the Internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18433             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18434             MR. LAVIN:  Manufacturing costs on a CD is $2.00 and retail price is $20.  It is an $18 net to me if I sell directly and a $1.00 net to me if I sell through a record company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18435             You have seen the demise of record companies through convergence of media technology and different forms of delivery.  We are going through a rebirth and the whole concept of copyright in copying, and that is another discussion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18436             I am of the smaller school that believes in free dissemination.  I put all my musical works on the Internet for free download.  I also have it for pay download and I also feel that people that experience my music for free, that like it well enough, will actually come to me and buy it of their own volition, basically a volunteer army, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18437             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  But are you interested in having more of your music on commercial radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18438             MR. LAVIN:  I think, you know, if people want to hear the music it is great to have an outlet.  I did actually hire some independent promotion for an album I did recently ‑‑ by recently, I mean about three years ago.  I actually wrote, arranged, produced, and self‑financed a big band record which was big band meets blues.  It was a high quality production and I thought that there might be some commercial viability to it, even with the narrow format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18439             I didn't find that to be true in Canada.  I found it to be true elsewhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18440             I think that the formats now are so tight and frequencies so limited and our population so spread out and our geographic demographics so wide that it is difficult.  I think putting 1000 watts to something like this is a wonderful first step.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18441             I also agree with Mr. Piggin.  I think that it could be commercially viable, successful here and it might well be copied in other areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18442             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Great.  Thank you very much.  Thanks for taking the time to participate.  We really do appreciate your input.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18443             MR. LAVIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18444             MR. PIGGIN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18445             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18446             I would now call James Spears to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18447             Mr. Arthur Hughes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18448             THE SECRETARY:  You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18449             MR. HUGHES:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, messieurs et mesdames.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18450             My name is Arthur Hughes, as you have announced, and I am a private citizen living in the city of Vancouver.  I have absolutely no connection whatsoever with any industrial or commercial broadcasting enterprise or anybody in the entertainment business.  I am here strictly speaking on behalf of myself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18451             Et pour ceux parmi les * commissioners + qui parlent français et les autres dans la salle, je voudrais...  Ça aura été un bon accueil à la ville de Vancouver, où elle est toujours ensoleillée, à l'exception d'aujourd'hui, sans doute, évidemment.  Ah!  Venons aux faits...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18452             To the point, some weeks ago I heard on my favourite radio station, 690 CBU in Vancouver, the fact that an application had been made to transfer to FM and drop the AM.  I was astounded at this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18453             I have been listening to CBU Vancouver for over 50 years on AM.  Just to give you an idea how I listen, I listen in my car ‑‑ and by the way, over those years four different cars, four different antennas and automotive radios ‑‑ receiving CBU clear as a bell in any part of the city.  The only time you can't get it is in an underground garage perhaps or going through what is known here as the Dees Island Tunnel.  Obviously you can't receive it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18454             Now, when I heard this, I phoned a number of my friends.  Most of my friends listen to CBC; we are on the same wavelength, so to speak.  I got through seven of the ten people, I kept track of it, listen to CBU daily.  Not one of those listeners had had any problems receiving the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18455             It astounded me, on reading the CBC application, to see their statistics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18456             If I may refer to my notes which I have provided the CRTC, if I can find it, section 5 of their application entitled "Listener Feedback", they listed 13 negative comments regarding CBC AM reception out of a survey of 401 listeners taken at random in June of 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18457             Now, my question is:  Where were the positive comments?  It is obvious that such comments would not further their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18458             Now, out of the blue a gentleman called Ben Clifford, who has the same view as myself who has provided you with a form, he examined the statistics provided by the CBC and he has found misrepresentations in so many of them, and he meticulously has recorded them, supplying charts which I believe you have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18459             I found it most interesting.  I did not have the time or the facilities to make such analysis of the CBC numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18460             But just back to the people I talked to who listen to CBC, none of them, other than my good friend and colleague Christopher Gaze of Bard on the Beach, who, by the way, you may not know is Canada's leading Shakespearean actor, I have to differ with him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18461             Let me say this.  On trips to the United States I am always listening to CBU 690 FM ‑‑ 690 AM.  What am I saying ‑‑ all the way almost to Bellingham, which is what, 35 kilometres south of Vancouver, and on the return journey as soon as I drive north of Bellingham I tune into 690 AM, clear as a bell ‑‑ well, not initially because it is quite a distance.  But after a few kilometres, clear as a bell you can obtain CBC all the way to Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18462             Now, one of the things, the negative things about FM is that most radios now have push button tuning.  You can't tune with the dial; you have to accept the number.  So frequently it wanders off that megahertz number.  There is nothing you can do about that.  It is a push button system; you can't adjust it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18463             An amusing part of the CBC application is this:  One of the reasons they want to transfer to FM is they say that young people listen to FM.  Of course they do.  What are they listening to?  They are listening to their favourite rock stations and, by the way, there is a commitment almost because of peer pressure to listen to these stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18464             If the CBC transfers from AM to FM, they are not going to get one more youthful listener.  It is not their type of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18465             In fact, as you know, the late‑night convenience stores usually play music to keep the youngsters from congregating.  If they turned on CBC 690 AM, the kids would disappear in swarms.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18466             MR. HUGHES:  So they are not going to gain anything by transferring to FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18467             Here is the capper in my argument.  You may not believe this.  The best way to illustrate it, if I were in a court of law defending a client, I would bring in to radios, one here, one here.  This would be tuned to CBC AM 690 kilohertz.  This one, however, would be tuned to FM to 93.5 megahertz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18468             What do you get on 93.5 megahertz?  You get CBC Radio One 24 hours a day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18469             Why are they applying?  They are already on FM.  You can hear it any time of the day or night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18470             In fact, if you find it difficult to find, 93 megahertz is NPR KPLU.  That is an all jazz station from Tacoma, Washington.  Just slightly to the right on the dial in CBC Radio One on FM all day long.  Nobody seems to realize that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18471             People might say, well, yes, but that's cable.  Okay.  Well, it takes merely $7.00 or $8.00 to buy a splitter, $7.00 or $8.00 to buy a short piece of coaxial cable.  Any teenager can attach that, it is child's play, and anyone can listen to FM on the cable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18472             So I am puzzled as to why they are making an application when they are already there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18473             I would like to read my last paragraph verbatim.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18474             I respectfully urge the CRTC not to permit the CBC to abandon their hundreds or more likely thousands of loyal Radio One listeners by cancelling the long‑running, since 1938, excellent AM broadcasting.  A rational compromise would be to maintain the status quo and also carry Radio One programming on FM as it already exists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18475             Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18476             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hughes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18477             Commissioner Williams will lead the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18478             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Did I understand you to say that the CBC on 690 has been serving Vancouver for 70 years?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18479             MR. HUGHES:  Yes, since 1938 apparently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18480             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So if there are these signal reception gaps, they have been here for almost that same period of time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18481             MR. HUGHES:  I have never had any trouble ‑‑ now, I haven't been listening since 1938, but I have been listening since the war.  Well, maybe I was, but I'm not aware of it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18482             MR. HUGHES:  But I have never had any trouble tuning in 690 AM nor ‑‑ and I know this is hearsay.  But at least a dozen of my friends have never complained about receiving CBC AM on 690.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18483             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  A couple days ago, I don't know if you were here when CBC was presenting, but they brought a small AM receiver with them and turned it on as part of their presentation to demonstrate that their signal could not be heard within a foot of where you are sitting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18484             Did you see that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18485             MR. HUGHES:  No, unfortunately I wasn't here.  It doesn't terribly surprise me.  There is a tremendous amount of ‑‑ this is a steel‑beamed superstructure that we are in and perhaps it is not ‑‑ but I live in a 22‑floor apartment building which is similar to this; never had any trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18486             By the way, I should mention that myself and my friends, because I quizzed them about it, are listening on small ‑‑ often listening on small battery‑operated radios, clock alarm type radios, you know, very low quality radios.  It comes in clear as a bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18487             Now, granted on a big tuner, especially if you are listening to cable, it comes in clear as a bell.  But I have never had any trouble receiving CBC AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18488             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It's interesting because after that demonstration one of our team went up to their hotel room and turned on their clock radio like you described, and it did come across in that particular location as the clearest signal on the AM band by far.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18489             MR. HUGHES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18490             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So it may be just in different areas or maybe there was something wrong with the radio, I'm not sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18491             All right.  Thank you, Mr. Hughes.  That is my question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18492             MR. HUGHES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18493             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18494             Mr. Hughes, this country of ours being what it is, the democracy, I am sure your friendship with Mr. Gaze will survive the difference in opinion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18495             MR. HUGHES:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18496             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  And thank you for taking the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18497             MR. HUGHES:  Thank you for hearing me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18498             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18499             We will now hear the presentation of Gabriola Radio Society.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18500             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 15 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18501             MR. ZAKRESKI:  Madam Chair, Commissioners, staff, we are here to request that the Commission not award the last channel that will service Gabriola Island with an FM service without considering the need for a local non‑commercial service and the work we have done so far to establish one, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18502             Thank you for permitting us to address the Commission with our concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18503             Je m'appel Ken Zakreski.  I am the developer for the proposed CIUF‑FM Gabriola Co‑Op Radio, GCR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18504             I currently am self‑employed as the proprietor for Permanent Press Publishing.  I formerly have published PEER Magazine serving the Nanaimo market with a for‑profit print publication; prior to that worked as President of the Campus Newspaper and its Business Manager while attending Malaspina University College where I obtained my undergraduate degree in business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18505             I am the developer and was the developer at that college for CHLY Radio Malaspina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18506             We are determined, with the permission of the Commission, to establish a not‑for‑profit community radio undertaking with studios and offices on Gabriola Island owned by the community, operated by volunteers and managed by a small dedicated staff.  It is our goal to serve our community with local programming created by residents, free from the censorship of market forces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18507             MR. MOHER:  I am Frank Moher.  I am a playwright and a journalist living on Gabriola Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18508             Today we will brief you on the support for a Gabriola Island station, the state of our application, options the Commission has regarding Gabriola Radio as an applicant and preferred actions the Commission might take.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18509             As mentioned in our comments submitted to the Commission, I would like to speak about the support shown first by the artistic community for Gabriola Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18510             According to a recent report funded by the Canada Council for the Arts, Gabriola is currently ranked sixth nationwide in terms of concentration of artists in the community.  It is home to the 2007 Governor General award‑winning author Iain Lawrence, B.C. book prize recipient Katherine Gordon, Juno award‑winning singer/songwriter Gary Fjellgaard and B.C. lifetime achievement recipient actor Anthony Holland, among many others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18511             Gabriola will provide more than enough material from these artists and many other voices to fill our airwaves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18512             These senior artists have also been working alongside the Island's emerging artists to benefit the Gabriola Radio Society.  A full‑time community radio station will support such mentoring roles for artists on a continuing basis and provide a forum for their work.  And the success of sales of CDs released from three recent GRS fundraising concerts, not to mention the concerts themselves, is an indicator of the eagerness of the community at large to work together for this common goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18513             I would like to move on now to the state of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18514             Since 2002 Gabriola Co‑Op Radio has been working hard to fund raise, create organizational structures and policies and determine an appropriate set of broadcast parameters for its own FM radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18515             We have also previously submitted comments regarding other broadcasting applications that might affect the work of the GCR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18516             It is with a great sense of accomplishment that GCR completed the CRTC portion of the application for a community FM broadcasting licence.  The residents of Gabriola Island have told us both in words and in deeds that they will work diligently and with passion to voice our community's unique sensibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18517             We have not been able to complete the required Industry Canada technical brief due to changing circumstances related to the applications before you in this proceeding.  This is frustrating for us because we now have all the necessary infrastructure, funds and community support in place to proceed with our project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18518             I will now ask Ken to speak to the engineering aspects of the project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18519             MR. ZAKRESKI:  We are now working with Grant McCormick, professional engineer, to develop a brief.  While we were working with another broadcast consultant for many years, he worked slowly and was unable to complete the research we required to attend to all the technical and geographical considerations, select a suitable channel and submit our engineering brief before you received the applications under consideration in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18520             Despite ongoing research, we have not found a set of parameters that will completely service our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18521             It is important to note two points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18522             B.C. is not flat, which introduces extra limitations in terms of coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18523             Spectrum is scarce on the west coast.  We are located just outside of Vancouver.  So we are just outside.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18524             Currently there is a short list of challenges we have to overcome.  Gabriola is close to a major market, Vancouver.  Channels available are being applied for and being awarded as we research them.  The CBC may be awarded all three channels they seek.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18525             It is uncertain whether the CBC will go ahead with plans to construct a tower on Gabriola.  Tower sites zoned on Gabriola are not designed to serve Gabriola as a broadcaster, but to broadcast away from Gabriola.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18526             This goes back to the 1930s when the AM just started.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18527             Residents have raised concerns about the proximity of a tower site and there still is uncertainty whether the CBC will be amenable to a trivial change in tower site location.  At A‑1 power we will not be able to reach all of our community without using repeaters, but some frequencies will allow more effective coverage than others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18528             If Gabriola Co‑Op Radio doesn't have an approved channel, it is uncertain whether the community will permit the required re‑zone to allow a tower site to be built on Gabriola.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18529             The local government on Gabriola decides rezoning even though it is a federal responsibility.  I have been assured by Industry Canada that they do seek input from the local government when deciding tower site zoning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18530             I want to comment just briefly on our intervention per se.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18531             We did not support or oppose the CBC's application.  We would like to work with the CBC.  Our comment was submitted as a comment for the Commission to consider.  We did not oppose, we did not support the CBC's application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18532             When we were prepared to develop partnerships with other broadcasters, the CBC has come forth with a plan that would see Gabriola broadcast on its tower for an agreeable licence fee.  We would desire a situation where the application for the CBC could go ahead so that they are interested in building the tower and at the same time have a channel available for Gabriola for its community efforts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18533             Options the Commission has regarding Gabriola Radio as an applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18534             Our engineer has been researching options for alternate channels, but they are problematic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18535             One, they require permission for first adjacent interference by an existing broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18536             Also, another channel is subject to approval during the Chilliwack portion of this hearing.  I will be addressing the Commission again during the Chilliwack portion of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18537             If no other channels are technically approved by Industry Canada that would service Gabriola, the Commission could permit the CBC to broadcast CBC via FM on 98.7, deny all current applicants use of 104.1 and reserve it for Gabriola as a community broadcaster, which could then apply for 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18538             Two, the Commission could deny all current applicants use of 98.7 and reserve it for Gabriola to apply as a community broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18539             Three, the Commission could consider Gabriola's use of 104.1 at reduced parameters, which may permit Vancouver use, Vancouver applicant use, as well, but would mean applicants intending to use 104.1 at parameters that would preclude concurrent use by Gabriola would have to be denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18540             If a channel exists that would be suitable for Gabriola but is yet to be approved for use by Industry Canada, the Commission could delay the decision from this hearing until our Gabriola application is resubmitted and its Industry Canada brief is technically approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18541             Five, we would agree to any fair process that the Commission can suggest to ensure that the last channels in the area are not allocated without first considering whether and how Gabriola residents can receive local community radio service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18542             And now Frank.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18543             MR. MOHER:  In conclusion, commercial applicants often speak of underserved markets and the Commission often speaks of diversity.  Gabriola has no locally produced community radio service, despite significant local support and interest in having the service and despite considerable work toward establishing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18544             We also look forward to working with other communities, including those on the islands of Galiano and Salt Spring to create a service embracing all the Gulf Islands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18545             Community radio is essential to ensure that listeners have access to diverse content and editorial perspectives.  We ask you to provide a structure whereby independent community applicants receive a priority in allocation of licences and frequencies.  Please ensure communities like Gabriola have local, non‑commercial radio options.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18546             Having briefed you on the support for our station, the state of our application, the options before you and the preferred actions you might take, we thank you for your time and welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18547             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Zakreski.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18548             I'm sorry, I got your first name Frank, but I missed your last name.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18549             MR. MOHER:  Moher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18550             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Moher, all right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18551             My main questions were your submissions in your written intervention and today your presentation are very full and there have also been very full replies to your interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18552             So my one remaining question had been the status of your application.  It is quite clear where it is now, which is really it's at the Industry Canada stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18553             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18554             MR. ZAKRESKI:  We have secured the services of Grant McCormick to provide professional engineering preparation of the brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18555             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18556             MR. ZAKRESKI:  We are currently looking at the problems of finding a channel to service our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18557             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18558             MR. ZAKRESKI:  At A‑1 parameters there is no channel available that will provide complete coverage to our community and we are not looking at, you know, undertaking a large area outside of our intended coverage area.  Our coverage area has been indicated clearly on our website since we started the process.  We have not changed it.  It is the community that we wish to service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18559             Basically, it is Gabriola and that parts of Nanaimo that are easily reachable.  Nanaimo is sort of a dish going up a hill.  Many residents often attend to Nanaimo for their needs, and we would like to be able to communicate to them, especially the ferry lineup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18560             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18561             I don't have further questions because your written submissions have dealt with all the ‑‑ you have anticipated the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18562             My colleagues don't either, so I thank you very much for coming this way to present your intervention in person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18563             MR. ZAKRESKI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18564             MR. MOHER:  Thank you for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18565             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18566             I will now ask Music B.C. Industry Association.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18567             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18568             MR. D'EITH:  Hello again.  My name is Bob D'Eith.  I am the Executive Director of Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18569             I very much appreciate you giving me two times to talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18570             If you remember, yesterday I was focusing primarily on the Jim Pattison CCD program, so today I am going to focus on general issues and also on the other applicants who are supporting Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18571             I just wanted to state that we are not endorsing one applicant over another.  We work with most of the broadcasters in Canada and we are primarily speaking to the Canadian Content Development Programs that are being proposed that we are involved with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18572             One thing I would like to say off the top as well is we are very, very supportive of FACTOR.  We are actually the FACTOR affiliate office for British Columbia.  But FACTOR is spread very thin in terms of they have to take care of the entire country, and what we find is a lot of the young and emerging artists, there is a five or 10 per cent success rate for applicants across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18573             So really, while FACTOR does serve the country very well, there is a huge need in British Columbia for additional funds here to help emerging artists in addition to supplement FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18574             So I would encourage the CRTC to look at a Vancouver‑based applicant in terms of supporting local initiatives and local emerging artists.  I think that is very important because 60 per cent is already going to FACTOR, and we would very much support any CCD programs that are staying local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18575             Again, I would just like to reiterate our thanks to the CRTC for recognizing the music industry associations in the radio review for being recipients of CCD monies and encouraging broadcasters to have relationships with the provincial Music Industry Associations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18576             I just wanted to firstly outline what our current relationship is with broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18577             We already have worked with Standard, which is now Astro, The Beat, Jim Pattison Broadcasting, OK Broadcasting, CHUM‑FM, many of the broadcasters over the last seven or eight years and have developed I think a very good relationship with the broadcasters in providing Canadian content programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18578             I think that we would respectfully ask the CRTC to please encourage broadcasters to use Music B.C. for administering their programs.  I could say that I think we are in the best position to administer programs and the reason is we are non‑profit.  We are completely, utterly dedicated to developing emerging artists.  That is what we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18579             We can encourage that funds stay local and that the funds are actually used for developing artists and not for marketing the radio station, which sometimes happens with Canadian Content Development monies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18580             We also can leverage every dollar.  One thing we do is for every dollar that we get, we will often leverage that money.  I will give you an example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18581             We did a tour program of British Columbia called a Get Out Of Town Tour, and we were able to involve Jim Pattison, OK Broadcasting, along with the provincial government and other sponsors.  So we actually leveraged the money we get.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18582             So as a non‑profit we don't just take the money; we also can turn that dollar into five or ten because we can work with other partners.  So we are in that position where we can do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18583             The other issue is we can often get a bigger bang for the buck, so to speak.  For every dollar that we get, if I go to a studio for recording fund, I can often get a preferred rate at the studio because we are non‑profit.  If a radio station goes, well, they're going to pay book rate.  So we can often get more value for that money is well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18584             So there are a lot of reasons why it is a good idea for radio stations and broadcasters to use the MIAs and Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18585             I think five of the applicants took that to heart this time, so five of the applicants have involved Music B.C.  SKY‑FM has proposed a $1,720 per annum increasing over the seven years in discretionary funds just to Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18586             SHORE‑FM have allocated $10,000 per annum for discretionary funds to be used as B.C. desires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18587             The Planet has set forth $70,000 per annum as discretionary funds for Music B.C. programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18588             Astral has set forth $70,000 per annum for an emerging artist touring program to be administered by Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18589             And of course, as you heard yesterday, Jimmy Pattison Group have dedicated $755,700 per annum, plus $50,000 per annum for our MTAP program for their peak performance program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18590             We would like to actually encourage the CRTC to actually license the two FM licences.  If you allow the Jimmy Pattison Group to have their AM/FM flip, we could actually double the CCD contributions.  I mean, if they are putting in $12 million and we get another FM licence, we could have up to $20 million in CCD funding, which would be absolutely wonderful to the music community and to the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18591             So that is one opinion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18592             I would just like to go back and discuss some of the programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18593             The Planet originally came to us, and that is 0785330 B.C. Ltd.  They came to us and asked us, "What you need?"  And we said, "We need sustained funding."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18594             One of the problems with all the music industry associations is we have a difficulty sustaining ourselves because programs change and policies change and we have to eke out an existence.  Having the funds as they propose, $70,000 a year over seven years, would help Music B.C. to sustain itself over a seven‑year period.  It is something that we have lacked in the last 15 years, 18 years.  Those types of programs are great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18595             What it will do is it will help enhance our programs that exist.  We have scholarship funds and instrument programs and demo programs and marketing programs for emerging artists.  We have compilation CDs for emerging artists.  We have a career development series.  We have a directory.  We have a resource library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18596             But all of these things can't happen unless we can sustain the organization.  So really we are very encouraged by The Planet's understanding of that need, and when they came to us with that we welcomed that with open arms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18597             Astral came to us as well and they said, "What program would be great for you?"  We pointed out that we had done a successful touring program where we were actually able to tour a number of artists together and get economies of scale; where we could have three or four artists touring together.  They can share marketing, they can share their fan bases and we can use all those things to leverage the artist careers and then also have the money to market it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18598             So the Astral program is designed with that in mind, and we would be able to have two of those kind of tours a year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18599             The other thing that is of note in that application is the leverage issue, where we are proposing that we should be able to go to the provincial government or other sponsors to double that money and probably even enhance more what the emerging artist can do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18600             So in conclusion, I would like to say that everything that Music B.C. does is helping emerging artists.  That is what we do.  Any of these CCD programs that would help us will help them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18601             Also, a lot of these programs that are being proposed will also help stabilize Music B.C., which really helps the community, because with a strong Music B.C. then we can go out and really do our job for emerging artists and for the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18602             So thank you very much for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18603             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18604             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. D'Eith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18605             I really don't have any questions for you because your presentation yesterday and of course your presentation this morning are quite clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18606             I am sure that the broadcasters are very appreciative of your fair and unbiased support for those who have made CCD contributions and specifically to those who have made it to Music B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18607             We like to think that they always listen to us and they take a hint from our Commercial Radio Policy, but I also think that it is a clear demonstration of the respect, that is the mutual respect, between those broadcasters and what Music B.C. does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18608             So I think hats off to you as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18609             MR. D'EITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18610             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18611             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just had one question as you were making your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18612             What are your efforts in terms of making the same pitch to all of the different broadcasters and have they been receptive?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18613             MR. D'EITH:  Oh, in terms of the ‑‑ well, we had an open door policy with all the broadcasters.  If any of the broadcasters that were making an application for this FM licence had come to us, we would have worked with them.  Some chose not to.  Some chose to work with us on a smaller level and some went in full bore, and everything in between.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18614             But this is really the first time this has happened, and I think it has a lot to do with the Radio Review and the encouragement ‑‑ I hope that is what happened.  They saw, hey, you know, if we work with Music B.C., that might be favourable because the CRTC sees that as favourable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18615             I think that this is the first time that we have done this and I hope that next time all the applicants will come to us.  That is what would be the hope.  Of course, we have an open door.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18616             I like to say we are Switzerland, you know, because we work with all of the broadcasters.  We actually have broadcasters on our board that sit in the same room and work with us for emerging artists.  It is wonderful.  You know, we can bring parties together that are often in competition in a neutral area to help the industry, and I think that message is starting to get out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18617             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I take it you must proactively go out there and just tell the broadcasters to, hey, just think of me all the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18618             MR. D'EITH:  We are trying to do that more.  One of the problems I guess with the process is that we don't always know who is applying and so we would have to sort of guess and sort of throw our net out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18619             In this case we didn't know everybody who was going to apply, and then by the time they applied the CCD programs are sort of spoken for and you kind of take what you can get.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18620             So we are trying our best to have constant dialogue with the broadcasters and build those relationships.  And I think the more programs that we do with the discretionary CCD funds, the more they will see that we do a good job and that we help the artists.  And then when they do do their dedicated programs, they will come to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18621             I think that will come over time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18622             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Thank you very much for taking the time to participate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18623             MR. D'EITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18624             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18625             We will now hear the last intervenor, NCRA, The National Campus and Community Radio Association.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18626             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18627             MS ZALTZ:  Good morning.  My name is Freya Zaltz.  I am Vice‑President of the National Campus and Community Radio Association and a volunteer board member at CFUV‑FM in Victoria, B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18628             The National Campus and Community Radio Association is a not‑for‑profit organization committed to volunteer‑based community and campus radio broadcasting in Canada.  It works to advance the role and increase the effectiveness of community access broadcasting.  It provides information and networking services to its 53 member stations, represents the interests of the sector and promotes public awareness and appreciation for community and campus radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18629             The NCRA filed an intervention concerning two applications by the CBC to use three frequencies in the Gabriola and Nanaimo areas to provide better coverage to Vancouver Island and the Sunshine Coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18630             In principle we are not opposed to the approval of these applications.  However, we are concerned that the use of what may be the last three remaining frequencies in the area suitable for A‑1 use means that Gabriola Community Radio, GCR, a member of our association, may be effectively precluded from obtaining a broadcasting licence.  The proposed signals of other applicants in this proceeding may also cause difficulty for GCR depending on their technical parameters and the combination of applicants the Commission chooses to license.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18631             So I hope you will consider the points I am raising here in the context of the proceedings of the whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18632             The issues here relate to the Commission's policies regarding licensing priorities, low‑power licensing and spectrum allocation and that is what I will address in my submission today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18633             Paragraph 3(1)(b) of the Broadcast Act describes the Canadian broadcasting system as comprising public, private and community elements.  From our perspective, this means that one of the Commission's responsibilities is to ensure that all three elements can coexist in as many Canadian markets as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18634             The recent Diversity of Voices decision highlights the importance of ensuring that communities are served by all three complementary elements whenever possible so that listeners are exposed to a variety of editorial voices and programming content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18635             As you may know, not‑for‑profit radio organizations often take years to accomplish what for‑profit corporations can do in mere weeks or months.  This is because the work is done by volunteers, often busy with full‑time jobs and family commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18636             But despite a serious lack of stable funding sources in Canada, they provide what is, in many cases, the sole independent media voice for their communities.  This includes diverse spoken word and music content, coverage of local issues and public affairs and an opportunity for minority voices to be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18637             They also create unique community development opportunities by providing a forum to debate divergent perspectives on local issues and educational opportunities for community members to learn about broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18638             GCR is no exception to this.  The Society has been working for six years to develop partnerships, create policies and plans, deal with logistics like selecting a tower location, planning studio construction, equipment purchases, conducting community outreach and fund raising.  Eventually, they may like to collaborate with other Gulf Islands, none of which have local community radio service yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18639             But they have not yet managed to complete an engineering brief, and this is not for lack of preparation but because they have been wrestling with the difficulty of finding both a suitable antenna location and a suitable frequency.  The CBC applications, and others, have now added to their difficulty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18640             One possible responses for the CRTC to deny CBC and others in this proceeding the use of one of the three frequencies unless their technical parameters would allow GCR to use the same one without undue interference.  In particular, we understand that GCR could most effectively serve the population of Gabriola island using 104.1 or 98.7 FM.  If neither frequency is available to them, any remaining options would likely provide limited coverage to the Island and/or interference with other broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18641             So assuming that these are the last remaining frequencies available in the area that could accommodate an A‑1 or B‑1 broadcaster, we asked the Commission to consider who should be given priority.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18642             Should be a CBC repeater to serve an area that arguably already receives CBC service?  Should it be a commercial broadcaster?  Or should it be a non‑commercial service where there is local support for one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18643             As a matter of policy, we suggest that the establishment of a non‑commercial service where one does not yet exist should take precedence in the allocation of the last available frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18644             If both CBC applications are approved, we understand that GCR's options will be as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 18645             One, find an A‑1 frequency that will serve the entire island and will not interfere with any existing or proposed broadcaster.  Their engineer believes that this is impossible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18646             Two, find an A‑1 frequency that may serve only a portion of Gabriola residents and may require minor technical amendments by the CBC or that may cause minor interference with the CBC signal or that of another existing broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18647             Three, find a low‑power FM frequency that falls into either of the two previous categories.  This option would create serious coverage limitations and is far from ideal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18648             If option number two is possible, we ask that the Commission strongly encourage and support the CBC and any other affected broadcaster to work with GCR in four ways.  We understand that CBC has agreed already to help in these areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18649             First, make minor technical amendments if needed to permit GCR to use an adjacent frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18650             Second, to accept a small degree of interference with their protected contours if no other options exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18651             Three, to provide space on their proposed Gabriola tower for GCR's antenna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18652             And four, to provide other technical assistance or support to help ensure that both services can coexist on Gabriola island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18653             We also ask the Commission to re‑examine its policies in two key areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18654             The first is that of licensing priority, as I mentioned earlier.  As we argued in the Diversity of Voices proceeding, in an era of increasing spectrum scarcity, we believe a policy is needed to ensure that communities can develop a community radio service if one does not yet exist or obtain a protected A‑1 frequency for an existing developmental or low‑power service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18655             This would require some form of frequency or licence reservation in each market and a limit on the number of licences the Commission can approve in markets where spectrum scarcity is an issue and a protected community radio broadcaster does not yet exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18656             Ideally, the Commission would work with Industry Canada to estimate the number of frequencies remaining in each market, reserve one or more for community use and ensure that the last frequency is not awarded to a commercial or public applicant if it would preclude establishing a community radio service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18657             It may also require dialogue with other regulatory bodies like the FCC to ensure that new protections granted in Canada are respected by American broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18658             It is worth noting that in the U.S., New Zealand and Australia, the lower portion of the FM band has been reserved for many years for exclusive use by non‑commercial broadcasters, and in the absence of a similar mechanism in Canada we encourage you to take alternate measures now to ensure that communities can be served by all three elements of the broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18659             It is also important to note that community broadcasters, due to their financial position, may not be able to access emerging technologies and may remain dependent on traditional FM broadcasting equipment and the existing range of FM frequencies for sometime to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18660             The second policy area we would like to see re‑examined is regarding low‑power FM in light of option number three that I mentioned a few moments ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18661             Recently, several community radio stations have been bumped or are at risk of being bumped for their unprotected low‑power frequencies by commercial broadcasters who have applied for the same frequency.  This causes undue hardship for low‑budget volunteer‑run stations that must quickly find a new frequency, complete an application, fund raise for new equipment, notify their listeners of the change, and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18662             In a climate of spectrum scarcity, community broadcasters are having an increasingly difficult time finding suitable A‑1 frequencies to move to when bumping occurs.  This is particularly so because financial constraints limit them to low‑cost tower locations.  It does not make sense for these stations to move to another low‑power frequency if it leaves them vulnerable to being bumped again in future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18663             And consider also that in small, compact communities, community radio broadcasters may be able to reach their desired population adequately with low‑power and that is not the case in Gabriola.  But in general sometimes the only reason these broadcasters apply for A‑1 frequencies is to achieve protection and not because high power is necessary to accomplish their goals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18664             But neither GCR nor any other community broadcaster would consider it good use of their funds to apply for a low‑power licence if it is likely that they would be bumped from their frequency, particularly if there is nowhere to move to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18665             Therefore, if GCR cannot find a suitable A‑1 frequency and is left with only a low‑power option, we ask the Commission to make an exception to the low‑power policy by providing frequency protection.  We also ask that you make a similar exception on a case‑by‑case basis in the future where it would enable small community broadcasters to begin or continue broadcasting without future undue hardship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18666             This is my comment a moment ago about cooperation with the FCC.  This is where it would be necessary so they would recognize this protection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18667             The Commission has indicated in the past that it recognizes the importance of independent community radio stations.  We are grateful for your recent recognition of the Community Radio Fund of Canada as an eligible recipient of CCD benefits to support the work of these broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18668             Now we ask you to take policy steps to protect them and enable their creation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18669             In closing, we ask you to consider Gabriola Co‑Op Radio's request for support and also to develop mechanisms to support and enable other community broadcasters in future.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18670             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Duncan, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18671             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you for your comments.  They are certainly detailed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18672             I'm sure you appreciate that we are not doing a policy review and apparently did make a presentation at the Diversity of Voices proceeding.  There is, I believe, a community broadcasting review coming up later this year, and so you have an opportunity there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18673             So for right now we can only deal with the rules that we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18674             The Gabriola Society did make a very effective presentation earlier, which I'm sure you heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18675             I guess the concern is what is reasonable or how long do you think it is reasonable for us to delay, given the context that we are working in now, that the rules are not such that you recommend, as you recommended?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18676             MS ZALTZ:  You are asking me for an estimate of how long you should delay while you wait for Gabriola?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18677             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes.  I'm asking what you think is reasonable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18678             I know you are proposing that there should be a rule that the last frequency not go to a commercial, or CBC, if the community radio is not in place, but that rule is not in place now.  Gabriola have asked us to delay our decision until they have a chance to get their engineering report together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18679             So I'm wondering how long do you think it is reasonable, given we have all these applications and we do have many with community support ‑‑ how long do you think it is reasonable to expect we could wait or should wait?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18680             MS ZALTZ:  Well, if it's all right, I would like to speak to what the logistical issues are for Gabriola Community Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18681             If they pay their engineer to complete a brief for a 104.1 or 98.7, which they would like to use, and you deny them the use of those frequencies, that is a significant chunk of money that they will have spent out of their fund raising revenue to create a brief that is not useful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18682             If they submit a brief to you for an alternate channel and it is approved, that is not really what they want because they will be compromising on the kind of service that they can provide to their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18683             So I think what they would prefer to do is have you decide and decide to reserve one of those frequencies and not allocate it to the other applicants, and then they would complete their engineering brief afterwards so they are not wasting money in doing it just in case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18684             Otherwise, if you really were to delay and wait for them, they now have to decide if it is better use of money to apply for one they think they are unlikely to get our better use of money to apply for one that doesn't give them what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18685             So I'm not really sure how to answer the amount of time that would help them figure that out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18686             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Because I noticed that you did say that they had been ‑‑ and it is the result of the type of association they are.  But they have been working for six years to get to this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18687             So it would certainly be a concern for us at this point, having had this proceeding, this call go this far, to delay to give them some unspecified amount of time to apply and compete with what we already have in front of us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18688             Anyway, I do appreciate your comments and perhaps some of the others, Madam Chair, might have some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18689             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  We do appreciate your intervention.  It is a very difficult situation, as we can all appreciate.  We appreciate the time that you have taken to participate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18690             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18691             MS ZALTZ:  Thank you very much for the opportunity.  We recognize that you are not making policy decisions here, but we think it is important to raise them as issues that have arisen that we would like to see addressed in future, because we think that these kinds of situations will arise more and more as the spectrum becomes increasingly full in all parts of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18692             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18693             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18694             This concludes Phase III, which is a list of appearing interveners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18695             We will take one hour and a half for lunch, so we will be back at one o'clock with Phase IV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18696             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1135 / Suspension à 1135

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à 1300

LISTNUM 1 \l 18697             THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18698             We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18699             We will now hear Mr. Matthew Gordon McBride for his application.  You have 10 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18700             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18701             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.  I will not take 10 minutes to respond to the interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18702             I have a remark on one intervener and that is the intervention on behalf of Frank Torres and his application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18703             If the Commission sees fit to approve my application for CKPM‑FM in Port Moody, I would be very pleased to have the MuddCats appear at our launch party, and I will right now extend them an opportunity to make a submission for our playlist there and they are welcome to have an addition to the playlist on any radio station that I currently operate as of today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18704             I would extend the same thing to Tom Lavin but I already have him covered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18705             Outside of that, I have no further comments, Commissioners.  I wish to thank all of the residents and supporters of the Tri‑Cities for their enthusiasm for this radio station and I hope that you have captured some of that sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18706             I thank the Commission first for hearing our request for this station, and I give you my best in the decisions most difficult that I am certain you will face in the coming days and weeks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18707             Thank you again for the opportunity to appear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18708             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McBride, for taking the time to reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18709             I'm sorry, Mr. McBride, legal has questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18710             MS PINSKY:  I'm sorry, I just have one question to clarify for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18711             You have committed to a minimum of 25 per cent of the Cat. 3 music level based on jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18712             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18713             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18714             MS PINSKY:  I just wanted to confirm for the record that you would be willing to commit to a condition of licence of a minimum of 25 per cent of that category?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18715             MR. McBRIDE:  We will accept that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18716             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18717             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry about that.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18718             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18719             I would now ask Frank Torres to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18720             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18721             MR. ED TORRES:  We just have an audio presentation that we are going to boot up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18722             I feel the weight of the private broadcast industry on my shoulders.  I have been getting a lot of advice from applicants because we get to respond to the CBC's intervention on our application.  That's okay, we have broad shoulders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18723             Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, my name is Ed Torres.  With me today is my brother Frank Torres, seated to my right; to his right, Aubrey Clarke and Yves Trottier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18724             First, let me thank and acknowledge all the supporters of our blues radio applications.  At present we have received close to 1,000 individual letters of support for our proposed format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18725             We would also like to thank the interveners who have appeared in support of these applications, including today, and to all of those people who have encouraged our work and supported it to give the blues in Canada a commercial voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18726             Let us state categorically and for the record that this application by DAWG‑FM has been given technical acceptance by Industry Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18727             Let us also state categorically that DAWG‑FM has never intervened against the CBC in these proceedings or otherwise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18728             The CBC has chosen to intervene against us in every proceeding that we have participated in.  They have objected to all four of our applications that are currently in front of the CRTC.  The CBC's culture of spectrum entitlement is perhaps the single‑most difficult barrier to entry into the broadcast system that we have encountered in our attempts for a blues format radio licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18729             The intervention before you speaks to the very reason that Vancouver is arguably one of the most underserved markets in Canada.  The protected contours of Victoria stations that reach into Vancouver and provide poor quality signals in Vancouver, sometimes inaudible signals, that is precisely why there is little spectrum available here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18730             It is a point we have made in our presentation.  Vancouver has only one commercial mainstream radio station for every 141,000 residents; Halifax, by contrast, one for every 41,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18731             In the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island regions, CBC controls an astonishing 22 frequencies.  In the feudal system of FM spectrum, they are the Lord of the castle and we represent the peasants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18732             Various applicants at these proceedings intervened against the CBC.  To paraphrase their interventions, the CBC greatly exaggerates claims of interference to the detriment of private broadcasters, community stations and they hinder the full use of the Canadian spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18733             In fact, on Thursday morning we watched applicant after applicant attack the CBC for these exaggerations.  We did not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18734             Then we watched the CBC sit down and attack our application.  They did not respond to any of the broadsides the other broadcasters levelled, as this was not really their agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18735             The irony of this is that we consciously avoided applying on 104.1 because of our knowledge of their plans to use it in Nanaimo.  In layman's terms, the CBC objects to the use of 89.3 for Vancouver because it will theoretically cause potential second adjacent interference to their Victoria Espace Musique frequency in some very small parts of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18736             The CBC transmits Espace Musique from two places:  Mount Seymour in Vancouver on 90.9, and from their transmitter northwest of Victoria on 88.9.  The Mount Seymour transmitter broadcasts at 100,000 Watts, the Victoria transmitter at 80,000 Watts.  This gives them duplicate coverage throughout the downtown of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18737             The CBC claims that there are two areas that are vulnerable ‑‑ interesting choice of words ‑‑ to potential second adjacent interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18738             MR. FRANK TORRES:  We will deal with area one first, downtown Vancouver, and refer you to map number one, which should accompany this handout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18739             Our engineers did show a theoretical ‑‑ again, theoretical ‑‑ interference to the Victoria signal in downtown Vancouver, but the interference will not cause any loss of coverage to listeners of Espace Musique because of the transmission of Espace Musique from Mount Seymour on 90.9 at 100,000 watts.  It truly does boom into the downtown core.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18740             We have taken a page from Mr. Carnovale's book.  After all, imitation is the highest form of flattery.  We did a little drive yesterday morning through the affected area and we are going to play a sample of 88.9 ‑‑ again, that is the Victoria version of Espace Musique that does penetrate Vancouver ‑‑ followed immediately by the Vancouver‑based Mount Seymour 90.9 transmission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18741             So again, we are going to play the clips now.  They are back‑to‑back.  There is just a very short pause in between them.  The first one is Victoria, the second one is Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18742             And there is no audio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18743             MR. ED TORRES:  I think you muted it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18744             MR. FRANK TORRES:  All right.  Stand by.  Take two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18745             And we are now on to take three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18746             Let's try another one.  Let's try another one.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18747             MR. FRANK TORRES:  All right, just one second.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18748             What we are going to do is we will make it even less scientific and we will play it directly out of the speaker associated with the laptop here instead of trying to pipe it through the PA.  Maybe we can make our point that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18749             Again, so let's try it here.  The first signal Victoria, the second signal Mount Seymour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18750             MR. ED TORRES:  Oh, there it is.  The volume is muted on here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18751             MR. FRANK TORRES:  You said to mute our cell phones but not our computers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18752             All right.  Just one moment.  Here we go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18753             MR. ED TORRES:  This works so well in rehearsal.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 1 \l 18754             MR. FRANK TORRES:  At last.  Thank you for your patience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18755             You can notice that both signals, although audible, it is very obvious that the second signal, the Mount Seymour signal, clearly beams into Vancouver and is vastly superior to the Victoria signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18756             I enjoyed that music, because my heritage is a Spanish.  It is clearly the same Spanish track, and it does prove that there is more than adequate coverage in Vancouver, in fact duplication of coverage in Vancouver from the Mount Seymour transmitter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18757             Thus, there will be no net loss to listeners of Espace Musique and as such ‑‑ that wasn't a part of the intervention, but now we refer you to map 2, area 2, sorry, on map 1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18758             It is an area of ‑‑ it is the second claim of vulnerability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18759             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Torres, I'm sorry, I don't have map 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18760             MR. FRANK TORRES:  I'm sorry, it's map 1.  It's the same map, just the second area that was indicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18761             That claim of vulnerability deals with an area of 500 people that live 42 kilometres northwest of the Victoria transmitter site in remote areas south of Gordon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18762             Originally the CBC claimed that 3,000 people were affected by this potential theoretical interference, but when we researched our census figures and we advised, they revised their number downward substantially.  That number was reduced by 84 per cent, an 84 per cent error on their part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18763             Possibly the greatest example of interference exaggeration, CBC claims that second adjacent interference from our small 918‑watt transmitter located 105 kilometres away in Burnaby will cause interference to the CBC signal beaming at 80,000 watts a mere 42 kilometres away from that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18764             As you can see from our brief, that map that is in front of you, there is no potential area of interference there.  We pointed that out to CBC as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18765             Now, I would like to read an e‑mail from Industry Canada that confirms exactly the information that we have just mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18766             I will quote:

"It would appear from my and other studies that the only interference to the proposal would occur to a minuscule area on the fringe of the CBC Victoria signal, CBUX‑FM‑1 in downtown Vancouver, which I would assume is more than adequately served by CBUX‑FM.  Furthermore, I note that the CBUX‑FM‑1 brief explicitly states that the intent of the station is..."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18767             Subquote:

LISTNUM 1 \l 18768             MR. TROTTIER:  "' desservir Victoria et ses environs'".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18769             That means to serve Victoria and its surrounding area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18770             MR. FRANK TORRES:  End of subquote:

"... which would presumably not include Vancouver."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18771             End of quote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18772             Let's now for the sake of argument, though, suppose that our 918‑watt transmitter, located 105 kilometres away from this potential zone of interference which we could not identify through our engineering brief, did provide some interference to that 80,000‑watt signal.  The BBM data suggests that CBUX pulls a .2 share in the market, and by applying that number to the 550 theoretically interfered with persons, it means that 11 people could potentially be theoretically affected.  Eleven people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18773             MR. ED TORRES:  On Thursday morning the CBC said ‑‑ and I paraphrase ‑‑ that they had exceeded their mandate to make Espace Musique available to 50 per cent of Canadians in B.C.  It was available to 66 per cent of the province.  The loss of 11 theoretical potential listeners does not affect this percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18774             If the CRTC licenses DAWG‑FM, 66 per cent of the province will still have that listening option available to them.  More importantly nearly 2 million Vancouver residents will get the music that they want to hear on 89.3, the blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18775             Overwhelmingly at this hearing supporting interveners and other applicants have brought forth strong evidence that Vancouver needs a blues station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18776             We will close again by reiterating that we have technical acceptance from Industry Canada for this frequency.  It was not an easy process, but it was a consultative process.  At every step along the way we have consulted with CBC and Industry Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18777             We are not rogue applicants.  We are simply looking for new ideas and new ways to maximize spectrum.  This is one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18778             We have another one and we would like to talk to you about that next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18779             I would be remiss if I did not take a moment to thank Industry Canada for their extensive work on this file.  I would like to get this on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18780             I would also like to reflect our gratitude to our engineering consultants for this innovative solution and their hard work to achieve it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18781             We will take any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18782             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18783             I'm sorry, Ms Pinsky, Commissioner Duncan has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18784             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I just want to be absolutely certain I have this right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18785             The other day we talked about 89.3 and you said you would be willing to accept 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18786             Is that correct?  Or are you still 89.3?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18787             MR. ED TORRES:  Our application is for 89.3, but we would accept 104.1 conditionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18788             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  All right, thank you.  That's what I understood.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18789             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your application and your time, and we will see you again next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18790             MR. ED TORRES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18791             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18792             I would now ask CBC to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 18793             MR. CARNOVALE:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18794             We are at the end of a long and very interesting week.  We will be brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18795             First, we would like to express our appreciation to the over 1,800 people that registered their support for our applications for Vancouver and Nanaimo.  We have been impressed with their passion and commitment to help us realize our plans in this region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18796             We will comment on three points raised in Phase II with respect to 104.1:  one, alternate frequencies; two, impairment of 104.1 in Vancouver; and three, our plans to serve Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18797             First, alternate frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18798             Five alternatives to 104.1 were put forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18799             Vista suggested that 89.5 could serve as an alternative for CBC in Nanaimo.  Did we look at 89.5?  Yes, we did and we rejected it because it is first adjacent with Vista's station in Duncan on 89.7, some 30 kilometres away.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18800             Vista has indicated that it is prepared to accept some level of interference to its Duncan station but hasn't specified either the compromises it would accept to its coverage in Duncan or the resultant coverage for us in Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18801             Even assuming an agreement could be arrived at, the issue doesn't end there.  Coordination with CHEK would be required.  Coordination would also be required for the Bellingham station through the FCC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18802             As well, the use of 89.5 could impact on the coverage potential of the applicants the CRTC will consider next week for Chilliwack and Abbotsford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18803             This is not a simple proposition.  A full engineering brief would have to be developed.  It would have to be coordinated between CBC and Vista in such a way that the coverage is as good as what 104.1 offers, which may not be possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18804             Industry Canada would have to approve it and an amended application would have to be filed, and the CRTC would have to defer its decision on this proceeding, recognizing that use of this frequency may restrict what the CRTC could do in Chilliwack and Abbotsford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18805             Taken all together, we don't think it is a good idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18806             Rock 95 has suggested that CBC could recycle its AM 690 signal for Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18807             If we were to use 690 AM for Nanaimo, we would have to move the transmitter.  The 25 millivolt contour, which is the official definition of an urban grade signal, currently covers most but not all of Vancouver.  It would have to be moved so that it would cover in Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18808             Setting up AM stations is a very expensive proposition and investing in AM infrastructure is, in our view, a poor investment of our scarce public resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18809             The Coast suggested that 98.7 on Gabriola could be used to serve Nanaimo and the Sunshine Coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18810             Theoretically, it could.  We considered this option, but unfortunately Rogers objected, as is their right, on the basis of the potential interference it might cause to their Victoria station were they to operate at full parameters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18811             As a result, we had no choice but to design our coverage in the way we did.  Both The Coast and SHORE‑FM suggested that we could use 89.1 instead of 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18812             SHORE‑FM quoted from industry Canada's letter of technical acceptance dated February 18th.  What they didn't do was finish the quote, which says:

"It should be noted that the Department also considers 206 89.1, to be a viable channel for the CBC, although the CBC do not.  However, as 254 98.7 will not interfere with any existing service, whereas 206 would interfere with the existing CBUX‑FM‑1 205 signal from Victoria, 254 is considered the better choice."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18813             Finally, The Coast suggested that 88.1 from Vancouver could cover Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18814             We know that.  That is not the point.  The point is to bring the Island Radio One service to Nanaimo.  Nanaimo already receives the Vancouver service on AM, so providing it to them on FM is hardly an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18815             On the impairment to 104.1 in Vancouver, we would say the following:  104.1 is subject to interference from KAFE Bellingham.  I don't think that is in dispute.  Clearly applicants such as Newcap, Harvard and Vista acknowledge the situation.  For intervener such as SHORE‑FM, In House and The Coast to say this isn't a factor is a bit disingenuous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18816             The question for the Commission is:  What is the best use of 104.1?  And that determination needs to take into account the limitations of the frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18817             I would like to say a few more words about 690.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18818             First, there is a misconception about the number of interventions against our proposed move from AM to FM.  They represent but a small fraction of those interventions in favour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18819             The evidence you have heard from the interveners for and against clearly underline our point.  The signal quality of 690 AM is very inconsistent, as also borne out in our engineering report which we would be happy to provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18820             Commissioner Williams mentioned about hearing the signal in the hotel using the hotel radio.  Well, that is part of the variability.  Which side of the building?  Was it south facing the transmitter site?  Was that on the north side?  Was it close to the window?  Was it away from the window?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18821             What you will find is even within a given hotel room, the signal quality can be all over the map.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18822             One thing is for certain:  the quality of the AM signal will continue to degrade.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18823             Just look out the window and you see the proliferation of high‑rise buildings, all of which serve to suck up the signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18824             This is the concrete jungle and it just gets progressively worse.  The sources of man‑made interference get progressively worse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18825             As we indicated on Wednesday, the frequencies that we have asked for, only one of which is mutually exclusive with other applicants, together with our existing FM transmitters, will provide a continuum of coverage from Chilliwack through to Campbell River.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18826             Finally, with regard to the simulcast period, the normal simulcast period as allowed by Industry Canada is six months.  We are quite prepared to be flexible on extending that simulcast period if Industry Canada and the CRTC would allow it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18827             Johnny...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18828             MR. MICHEL:  My name is Johnny Michel.  I am the Regional Director for CBC in British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18829             I just want to respond to some of the comments with regards to our Nanaimo service and programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18830             Some of the applicants have characterized our plans for Nanaimo as a frequency grab, with a promise that we might establish a new station at some point in the future.  They missed the point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18831             Listeners in Nanaimo want coverage from Vancouver Island.  That has been our starting point.  So allow me to confirm our position again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18832             Should we be awarded the licence for 104.1 FM, we would open a News Bureau in Nanaimo immediately and we would start covering Nanaimo news and events immediately with reporters from the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18833             We are also willing to accept this as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18834             The integration of Nanaimo into the Vancouver Island service is what we are trying to achieve.  The Radio One service out of Vancouver does not serve the people of Nanaimo because, as you heard from the panel this morning, Vancouver's issues are not the same as Nanaimo's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18835             Next, on the amount of local content, I would like to respond to the assertion that there is a massive duplication.  So just allow me to walk you through this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18836             Let's compare the amount of content on Radio One with a commercial radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18837             The Morning Show on CBC Radio One from Victoria is 2‑1/2 hours long and we will be feeding Nanaimo content into the show from our new News Bureau.  There are newscasts throughout the day, once every hour and five minutes on the hour.  These will also have local content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18838             So take away the music content of a commercial radio station, take away the network content of Radio One, and you are left with the amount of local live content in the Morning Show and the newscast.  Spread that throughout the day and you'll find that this amount is very similar to what you will hear on any commercial radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18839             Madam Chair, Commissioners, what we have heard through this process is that there is a broad acceptance to our plan to move to 88.1 in Vancouver to address our reception problems.  We know that our proposal to use 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast can coexist with another applicant on that frequency, so there is no reason why we couldn't make the transition to FM there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18840             Finally, you have heard from the community leaders of Nanaimo this morning, and quite passionately as you have said so yourself, that they want and need a dedicated FM frequency to serve their city.  This is Radio One's best solution to serve the people of this region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18841             Thank you for your attention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18843             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just regarding your statement about opening a News Bureau in Nanaimo, given that they receive the signal from Vancouver now anyway, why wouldn't you just go ahead and open one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18844             Why would you need the frequency changes to do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18845             MR. MICHEL:  Because, as we have said in the past, Commissioner, the issues of Nanaimo are different than the issues from Vancouver, and actually our research indicates that the issues are even different than Victoria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18846             So, you know, it would be easy for us, as you stated, for us just to go ahead and open one, but there would be absolutely no coverage of Nanaimo issues on the Vancouver service because that is not the mandate of the Vancouver service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18847             So really the only solution for us is to include that as part of the Island because, as you heard again this morning from the panels from Nanaimo, they feel more of an affinity and closeness as Islanders on Vancouver Island and not with Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18848             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18849             But why would it do any harm to your Vancouver service for it to be covering issues in Nanaimo?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18850             I understand that there is some water in between, et cetera, but people in Vancouver I would think aren't disinterested in things.  I mean, you wouldn't be leading your newscast with Nanaimo news, but to be able to include some coverage wouldn't seem to me to be that problematic given that your Vancouver coverage probably includes news from time to time from Edmonton or Saskatoon or other places across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18851             Wouldn't it just provide broader, stronger regional coverage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18852             MR. MICHEL:  Commissioner Menzies, absolutely.  I mean, we could do coverage, but that coverage would be very minimal.  Even if we did do it, it would not be part of the mandate but it would be very minimal when you consider our mandate to cover the entire province and some of the programming that we do and the Vancouver, Greater Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18853             So the coverage for Nanaimo, if we were to do any, would be very minimal within that mix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18854             However, on the Island, when you consider the service on the Island, that coverage would be commensurate with the population that lives on the Island and so that coverage would be quite substantial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18855             So could we do it?  Yes.  Would we be providing an adequate service?  We don't believe so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18856             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So if you did it through the Island, then, the coverage of Nanaimo issues and northern Vancouver Island issues and the coverage of southern Vancouver Island issues and Victoria, how would they be equivalent, 60/40, 70/30, 50/50?  Give me some idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18857             MR. MICHEL:  Sorry, just so I understand correctly, you are asking if we did coverage of Nanaimo from the Victoria service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18858             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18859             MR. MICHEL:  Like I said, it would be commensurate with the overall population of the Island just to begin with, as a starting point for the purpose of this discussion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18860             So if you look at 700,000 people that live on the Island and we will be serving, from what you have heard this morning, around 150,000 and ultimately it will be 350,000, the coverage is going to be within that range in terms of percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18861             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18862             Regarding the comment you made concerning thoughts about establishing a station in Nanaimo ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18863             MR. MICHEL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18864             COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ why wouldn't that be in your plans if the area is growing as quickly as it is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18865             MR. MICHEL:  It is part of our plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18866             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18867             MR. MICHEL  As we mentioned yesterday I believe, on Wednesday during our ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18868             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But that is not the primary purpose of this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18869             MR. MICHEL:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18870             COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I must have misunderstood what you said earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18871             MR. MICHEL:  No, that is not the primary purpose of this, but it certainly is our look towards the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18872             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18873             Just regarding the Sunshine Coast frequency, that is 98 ‑‑ sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18874             MR. MICHEL:  98.7

LISTNUM 1 \l 18875             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  98.7.  If you establish that and, just to be clear, that will service the entire Sunshine Coast area?  Everybody will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18876             MR. CARNOVALE:  Certainly the bulk of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18877             And if you can bear with me a second as I reach for one of my maps, it is completely complementary with our coverage from Sechelt, CBUW‑FM.  So as you are moving up the coast, one transmitter leaves off, another one takes over.  So it nicely fills the gap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18878             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And no one gets left out?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18879             MR. CARNOVALE:  Very few people.  In fact, I would say that on balance and the point that was made on Wednesday in our presentation, we actually think that when you net out the improved availability delivered by the FM signal and the fact that more people will be able to get a consistently good quality signal, there are actually more people that gain than might lose in terms of fringe AM coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18880             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18881             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18882             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, CBC panellists.  Welcome to this phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18883             Much has been said of various reception problems in parts of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18884             How long have these problems existed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18885             MR. CARNOVALE:  They have existed in various forms actually for over 40 years of the 70‑year history.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18886             CBU underwent a power increase in 1967 and that is when it went from 10 kilowatts to 50 kilowatts, and at that time we had the first inkling of the kind of issue that has only gotten progressively worse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18887             So there is nothing more that we can do with that frequency.  It is running at maximum power.  It has protections to other co‑channel stations and receives interference from other co‑channel stations, including XETRA in Tijuana, Mexico, which operates a full 50 kilowatts beamed north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18888             So the problem has actually been around for a long time.  We have been searching for a frequency since 1997.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18889             We attempted to go for a nested FM a few years ago and, as we indicated, that was withdrawn.  So it is a long‑standing problem, and it just keeps getting worse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18890             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So for 11 years you have been trying to solve this problem?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18891             MR. CARNOVALE:  With an AM to FM flip or a nested FM in the first instance, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18892             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What year was the power increased again?  I missed that, I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18893             MR. CARNOVALE:  1967

LISTNUM 1 \l 18894             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So that's 40 years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18895             So just all of a sudden 104.1 magically appeared and that is the preferred solution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18896             I'm just wondering why it has taken 40 years to solve the problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18897             MR. CARNOVALE:  Sorry, 104.1 is not the preferred solution for us for Vancouver.  It is 88.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18898             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Right.  Right, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18899             MR. CARNOVALE:  We in fact first uncovered 104.1 along with 106.3 when we were assisting Aboriginal Voices Radio to find a frequency a few years ago, and then 104.1 actually fell off the table as a result of KAFE in Bellingham indicating that it actually wanted to go to that frequency and instead of being first adjacent would have been co‑channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18900             So the frequency actually came off the table when we applied for it in Nanaimo, and reinstituted frequency coordination through Industry Canada with the FCC was when it was determined that KAFE would not be changing frequency and therefore it was reusable in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18901             MR. SCARTH:  Perhaps, Commissioner Williams, if I can just add to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18902             You are asking what took you so long.  The reality for us, and the message that we delivered in our opening remarks, is for us it is now or never.  Perhaps we have left it too long, but now we are at the stage where FM spectrum availability is extremely scarce.  We have identified the only options that we can to make the transition from AM to FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1