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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.




















                      SUBJECT / SUJET:




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)












HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark                   The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                    1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                       Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 28, 2008                     Le 28 février 2008








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)






Helen del Val                     Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller







Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secretaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Carolyn Pinsky                    Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique





HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark               The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                   Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 28, 2008                 Le 28 février 2008


- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA


PHASE I (Cont.)





Matthew Gordon McBride (OBCI)                     980 / 5530









Vista Radio Ltd.                                 1053 / 6094


6851916 Canada Inc.                              1061 / 6152


Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd.                        1073 / 6215


In House Communications Inc.                     1083 / 6280


The Coast 104.1 FM Inc.                          1086 / 6302


Canadian Broadcasting Corporation                1093 / 6340









Michael Norman                                   1098 / 6376


Barbara Dortsch                                  1132 / 6613


Eagle-Com Marketing                              1140 / 6653


Ryan Donn                                        1153 / 6717


Grrrls with Guitars                              1167 / 6797


Convergent Entertainment                         1175 / 6825


Jim Byrnes                                       1184 / 6872

- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA







Convergent Entertainment                         1175 / 6825


Jim Byrnes                                       1184 / 6872


Dennis Nokony                                    1188 / 6887


Duane Geddes                                     1193 / 6908


Nuu-chah-nulth Economic Development Corporation  1208 / 6984


29 Productions                                   1216 / 6995


Boys and Girls Clubs of Greater Vancouver        1221 / 7014


Pete Mason                                       1234 / 7101


Sarah Seage                                      1239 / 7134


Brenda-Lee Sasaki                                1242 / 7151


RockSTAR Music Corp.                             1259 / 7279


Ron Taverner                                     1267 / 7315


Cultural Olympiad                                1273 / 7349


Elka Yarlowe                                     1282 / 7389


MusicBC                                          1299 / 7515


Aboriginal Voices Radio                          1305 / 7553


Greater Vancouver Food Bank Society              1314 / 7603


I.T. Productions Ltd.                            1316 / 7619


Cordova Bay Entertainment Group                  1323 / 7660


Theresa Point                                    1329 / 7695



                  Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, February 28, 2008

    at 0830 / L'audience débute le jeudi 28 février

    2008 à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 55285528             THE SECRETARY:  We will now hear the last applicant for the Vancouver market.  We will proceed with Item No. 17, which is an application by Matthew Gordon McBride, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15529             Please introduce yourself and your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 15530             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15531             Madam Chair and Commissioners, good morning.  My name is Matthew McBride and I am the applicant for a new FM radio station to serve the City of Port Moody in British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15532             I am a current licensee.  I operate CHMZ‑FM 90.1 The Bear in Tofino, CIMN‑FM 99.5 The Edge in Ucluelet, and CFPV‑FM 98.7 Spud Valley Radio in Pemberton, B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15533             Of these, Tofino and Ucluelet are currently operational.  Pemberton will sign on as soon as the snow melts on the mountain and we can get our installation teams there to hang up our antenna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15534             Over the years I have been extremely fortunate to work with many of the best broadcasters in our industry, including many who have appeared before you this week, and I am very pleased to introduce to the Commission three more of those very fine broadcasters, who are joining me today to present our proposal for a new radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15535             To my left is Doreen Copeland, a virtual legend in this town for her almost 30 years of experience working as an on‑air talent and music director, at the same station, through various formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15536             It is a particular honour to have Doreen sitting with me today, because it was Doreen who first taught me the basics of music direction when I showed up at KISS‑FM here in Vancouver in the mid‑eighties.  Her knowledge and skill inspired me to pursue programming and music direction, and much of what I know today was first introduced to me by Doreen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15537             Doreen is a valuable resource as we explore the music we intend to broadcast on CKPM in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15538             Beside Doreen is Barry Wall, 30 years in broadcasting, including on‑air programming and management roles.  Barry has contributed his valuable knowledge to the framework of the concept of Port Moody radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15539             Barry is currently the Operations Manager for McBride Communications and Media, which is the company that oversees the day‑to‑day operations of the radio stations that we are responsible for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15540             Additionally, Barry is a resident of the tricities area, of which Port Moody is a part, and Barry will be leading the studio and technical build‑out should our application find favour with the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15541             On my right‑hand side is Eric Stansfield.  Eric brings to us an invaluable insight into our Port Moody radio project.  He is a highly skilled broadcaster, with over 25 years of experience in radio and television programming and production, with an impressive list of contacts and associates in this industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15542             He is also a long‑term resident of Port Moody, and, in fact, lives within sight of our intended studio location, which would come in handy in the case of storms or hard‑drive failures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15543             It was Eric who conducted much of our street‑level support and business research activities, and helped to interpret the data that we found to help us understand the Port Moody market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15544             I will now begin our opening presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15545             Members of the Commission, on March 3rd, residents of the City of Port Moody are invited to City Hall to voice their comments and ask questions over the proposed Evergreen Line Route.  The Evergreen Line is part of a region‑wide mass transit initiative linking communities along the north side of the Fraser River with Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15546             This is the largest transit initiative that the region has ever seen, and has been under some form of discussion or consideration for most of the past 30 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15547             Next week, Port Moody City Council is asking the community to visit and voice their opinions.  The odds on those citizens hearing about this session on an FM radio station in the Lower Mainland are zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15548             The Squamish and Musqueam Bands of the Coast Salish people have an 8,000‑year footprint in Port Moody, using the area to fish and hunt.  Western settlers moved to the area over 200 years ago, first for the fur trade, and then the Cariboo Gold Rush, and in 1859 the Royal Engineers, under the command of Colonel Richard Moody, blazed a trail along what is now North Road, connecting Burrard Inlet with New Westminster as a defensive supply route, in case the then capital of B.C. were to be attacked from the south.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15549             In 1886 Port Moody was named the original Pacific terminus for the Transcontinental Railroad that was instrumental in building our nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15550             As fate would have it, the railroad was eventually pushed forward to just a few blocks from here, in Coal Harbour, but much of the industry that settled there remained, and in 1913 Port Moody was incorporated as a city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15551             Port Moody bills itself as "The City of the Arts".  It is at the head of Burrard Inlet, the foot of Eagle Mountain, and is home to 30,000 residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15552             The city describes itself as an easy 40‑minute drive from downtown Vancouver, which would only be true if you were leading a police chase ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15553             MR. McBRIDE:  ‑‑ and is tucked around the far side of Burnaby Mountain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15554             The adjacent communities of Port Coquitlam and Coquitlam, together, form the tricities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15555             Commissioners, we are very pleased today to appear before you to present our application for a new FM station to serve the community of Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15556             The community of Port Moody has long since evolved from a bedroom suburb of Vancouver into its own unique persona, routed in its history, environment and, significantly, a reputation for its artistic attributes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15557             This artistic facet of Port Moody life is embodied with the highly respected Port Moody Arts Centre and its proactive and exciting mandate to enrich community life by encouraging and supporting the development of arts, culture and tourism, and inspiring a vibrant future while respecting the past.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15558             A variety of visual art centres are featured in the community's Arts Walking Tour, which attracts thousands of tourists and locals every year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15559             The city's community information website contains multiple cultural events for virtually every day of the year, from social events to physical activities to panel discussions on politics, books, ideas and issues, to unique events that you never hear about on the air here, events like the Persian New Year Tea Party, the Festival du Bois, and monthly events at the Place des Arts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15560             There is also the War Child Canada Fundraiser Concert.  This event occurs annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15561             And next week at the Inlet Theatre audiences will gather to hear Sam's Falling, an alternative act; Samuel Sixto, performing French classical music; Joanna Rader, a pop artist; James Monroe's acoustic alternative set; and Maxx James, performing blues and rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15562             The event will sell out.  All of these artists are local, all meet the definition of emerging Canadian artists, and all fall within the broad definition of a "Triple A" format.  The odds on hearing any of these artists on Vancouver radio today are zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15563             That is a typical day in the cultural life of Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15564             I would now like to present to you Eric Stansfield, broadcaster and resident of Port Moody, to deliver some elementary economic points about the tricities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15565             MR. STANSFIELD:  Thank you, Matthew, and thank you to the Commission for hearing our presentation this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15566             As you have heard, the area of Metro Vancouver, known as the tricities, is made up of the cities of Port Moody, Coquitlam and Port Coquitlam.  They have all experienced enormous growth over the past 10 to 15 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15567             From a residential figure, the City of Port Moody has grown from a population of just over 20,000 in 1996 to a B.C. Census estimate of 30,000 in 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15568             As well, the cities of Coquitlam and Port Coquitlam have seen their share of growth.  Port Coquitlam totalled over $74 million in new construction in 2006, and the building growth continues in Coquitlam, with new developing neighbourhoods throughout the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15569             Port Moody is currently experiencing residential and commercial growth previously unseen.  Building permits have gone from $24.9 million in 2000 to over $190 million in 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15570             Business licences have nearly doubled in five years, from just over 1,000 in 2001 to over 2,000 in 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15571             Enough of the dollars and cents.  We are talking about three cities that like to have fun.  They support and boast year‑round events, festivals, the arts, and the diverse culture of the tricities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15572             As you have already heard, Port Moody has its highly successful Golden Spike Days, which attract visitors from all over Metro Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15573             Coquitlam hosts the Festival du Bois in Maillardville, the largest francophone community west of Winnipeg.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15574             Port Coquitlam is the birthplace and the hometown of the Terry Fox Run, and it is now celebrated worldwide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15575             Port Moody not only offers its residents lovely and modern neighbourhoods in which to raise families, it also has the natural beauty of mountains, waterfront parks, and plenty of recreation.  The same can be said for Coquitlam and Port Coquitlam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15576             Together, the tricities offer a lifestyle that is unique within Metro Vancouver.  It is most definitely an area that is on the move forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15577             And as a resident of Newport Village, in the heart of Port Moody, I can assure the Commission that this community is ready to embrace this radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15578             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you, Eric.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15579             Now, Barry Wall, our Operations Manager, will review our business research tactics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15580             MR. WALL:  Thank you, Matthew.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15581             Good morning.  Our application used an old‑fashioned method of primary research, held on three distinct levels.  First, we executed a face‑to‑face interview campaign with business owners in the area, and completed survey documents for over 10 percent of the entire retail business community in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15582             We followed up with focused interviews with select businesses, and completed a third round of revenue research interviews to determine attitudes and opportunities for radio advertising within the Port Moody market, and used those research figures to build our programming concept and revenue forecasts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15583             We conducted several individual interviews with city planners and business and economic development staff, to get an understanding of the behaviour of the retail market and the municipal growth plans for the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15584             Not surprisingly, we discovered that a community with two newspapers and no radio station would really like to resolve that gap in media presence, and our business proposition was strongly encouraged by city staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15585             They pointed us in the direction of key economic indicators to help us develop a financial plan, and led the way to direct discussions with key community members in business and culture to help us shape a totally unique and local radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15586             Finally, we held 200 personal or telephone interviews with Port Moody residents to determine issues related to format and music, using a qualitative approach.  It became clear to us in our discussions that a contemporary music format with a broad, beyond the charts, beyond a format approach, would work within the community, and that, as important as the music would be, what we put between the records would be critical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15587             We spent the bulk of our business and programming research in direct discussions with real people, real business, and real governance agencies in Port Moody to develop the foundations of CKPM‑FM Port Moody Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15588             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you, Barry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15589             Now we turn to our very own disenfranchised female, Doreen Copeland, with a brief discussion on our music proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15590             MS COPELAND:  Thank you, Matthew.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15591             CKPM‑FM Port Moody will adopt the same eclectic, artsie and diverse attitude that the community itself puts forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15592             Our music programming will be comprised of 75 percent Category 2 popular music, 12.5 percent Category 3 ‑‑ you might want to note that change ‑‑ jazz, and 12.5 percent Category 3 world beat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15593             While we do not necessarily wish to peg this music into a specific format, for understanding, it would be defined as "Triple A".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15594             Today's most widely played "Triple A" acts would be represented on our playlist by what the charts are showing right now, people like Sheryl Crow, Robert Plant and Alison Krause ‑‑ and if you haven't heard their album, you are in for a treat ‑‑ Jack Johnson, Feist, and KD Lang.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15595             The popularity of the music format we propose is apparent.  Its aggressiveness and exploratory nature was reflected in Sunday night's Oscar‑winning song called "Falling Slowly".  It was from a very little movie out of Ireland, which I think they spent $200,000 filming.  The movie is called "Once", and the song won the Oscar, and the song is played only on "Triple A" radio, from what I could find in my research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15596             What is interesting about that song and that movie ‑‑ I have a 16‑year‑old daughter.  We saw the movie together, and both of us were, like, "Where is the Kleenex?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15597             It was an incredible little movie, and when we were watching the Oscars on Sunday night we both went, "Oh, my God, they won!"  It was so exciting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15598             Her friends don't know about this song.  My friends don't know about this song, other than us talking about this fabulous movie and the fabulous soundtrack, because it is not on a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15599             Anyway, I diverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15600             We recognize that the "Triple A" format is being proposed in various forms by a number of other applicants who responded to the August 10th, 2007, Call for Applications, and wish to point out that this application, and its attendant format proposal, was actually filed with the Commission a full month before the Vancouver call was issued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15601             The format we propose has been supported through our research as one which would find broad acceptance in our target market, and, further, a "Triple A" format is one of the very few formats that lends itself almost perfectly to the objective of supporting emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15602             "Triple A", by its nature, goes off the straight and narrow.  It digs deep, and it looks for new sounds and styles and approaches to modern music.  This is exactly the realm in which emerging artists operate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15603             We will maintain, of course, a minimum of 35 percent Canadian content between 6 a.m. and midnight for the entire term of licence, or at any subsequent level, for radio stations within our licence class, as determined by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15604             Approximately 40 percent of our total songs played in a given week will meet our definition of emerging artist, as expressed in our Form 101 submission.  An average of three songs per hour will be Canadian emerging artists, and a guaranteed minimum of one Canadian emerging artist will be played in every hour where music is programmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15605             Additionally, CKPM‑FM Port Moody will feature local emerging artists, defined as those from the Greater Vancouver Regional District, in a feature broadcast weeknights at 7 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15606             This feature, 10 minutes each airing, will include artist information, interview, music purchase and acquisition information, and the airplay of a selected song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15607             The feature will be restricted to songs that meet the definition of Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15608             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you, Doreen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15609             Once a month we will broadcast live from one of a number of local live music venues, beginning with Joe's Atlantic Grill, which holds Newfie nights on the last Sunday of every month, bringing in regional artists who specialize in East Coast genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15610             Preliminary discussions with two other local venues have been held, and additional venues will be added over the course of the first 18 months of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15611             An operation the size we are proposing has a couple of challenges today.  One of them is that we cannot hope to compete at the dollar volume of Astral's, Harvard's, and other applicants at this hearing, and our business plan doesn't allow us to maintain a permanent CCD administrative infrastructure.  Therefore, our best solution may be the most beneficial, and certainly is the simplest ‑‑ we are going to whip out our chequebook and start writing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15612             The radio station intends to be a community focal point for all major community events, including the annual Golden Spike Days, a Canada Day‑oriented festival that features, amongst other things, a very popular and highly attended vocal talent contest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15613             In addition to promotional support, CKPM‑FM will be putting forward an annual cash reward for the winning singer and runners‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15614             A significant part of our proposal regarding Canadian content development is the financial support of musical instrument purchases in local high schools, contributions to local performances in association with cultural events, such as the War Child Concert previously noted, and an allowance for production expenses for our local emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15615             We will maintain a base payment to FACTOR annually, and an additional voluntary payment above the minimums, both to FACTOR and to direct support within our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15616             We will not make any request to FACTOR related to the distribution of our contribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15617             Finally, we pegged our annual CCD contributions to our forecasted revenue, as we anticipate annual growth, so we allocated a predictable sum to CCD initiatives in the form of cash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15618             We also intend to maintain those dollar volumes proposed in our application should our revenue fall short, but will expand those dollar contributions should our revenues exceed our forecast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15619             CKPM‑FM Port Moody is a truly local radio station dedicated to the community.  We will produce 126 hours per week from our studios in Port Moody's Newport Village.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15620             We will be live from 5 a.m. until 7 p.m. Monday through Friday, and 6 a.m. to 7 p.m. on weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15621             Our evening voice‑tracked hours will be used as a training ground for our newest and developing on‑air talent, so that they will have the benefit of virtual real‑time broadcasting, and the ability to hear themselves on the air.  With the vast use of automation in our industry today, traditional training areas, such as evenings and overnights, are virtually non‑existent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15622             We will use our voice‑track time to develop local broadcast talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15623             The station will carry 872 minutes of spoken word programming, of which 198 will be news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15624             Local news comprises 80 percent of this volume.  The remaining 20 percent will be for regional, provincial and national issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15625             Of the remaining time, 25 minutes per day, or 125 minutes per week, will be dedicated to "Port Moody Talks", our daily talk show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15626             The remaining time will be consumed in commuter service reports, climate reports, and community billboard programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15627             These times do not include DJ ad libs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15628             The CKPM business plan was developed using the results of our primary research.  Revenues were forecast based on our prior experience operating radio stations in small markets, factoring in the very positive feedback we received from local businesses, suggesting that we could expect to obtain about one‑third of the businesses' existing ad budget, which goes primarily to newspapers, and that would be re‑routed to a local station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15629             This seemingly high volume of transference is reflective of an aggressively structured rate card.  Most businesses in the tricities area simply cannot afford to advertise on Vancouver radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15630             Our overall growth estimates were derived from known growth factors taken from period‑to‑period reports obtained from the CRTC and other research sources, and our expense growth rates were generally pegged either to the known rate of inflation or to our actual experience.  Where possible, costing was done with the anticipated vendors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15631             Commissioners, you are aware that I currently hold licences in Ucluelet, Tofino, and Pemberton, B.C.  I started my career in broadcasting over 27 years ago in a small town, and while I spent most of my time in big cities, I have always had a strong passion for small‑town radio.  I am, after all, a local boy, from a small town in the Fraser Valley, just a few miles upriver from Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15632             Our dedication to community service is simple:  100 percent local content, talent and presence, which has worked out very successfully in our existing markets.  We call it "Uber" service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15633             Our stations on the west coast of Vancouver Island regularly host live performances on the air, deliver a very high level of local, emerging artist exposure, and are staffed entirely by locals.  We find them, we train them, and we let them reflect their own towns and villages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15634             By finding and developing local broadcast talent, we have seen the introduction of some amazing local characters like Chainsaw Pete, our relationships counsellor; Jim the Naked Oyster Farmer, our cooking expert and political commentator; and Boathouse Bonnie, an environmental activist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15635             These are real people, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15636             We hold unusual and highly popular local contests like "Blindfold Crab Pot Surprise", "Lick that Flounder", "Deer Drop Bingo", and the 99.5 Daily Prize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15637             These are real contests, with real deer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15638             We get the locals on the radio.  In Ucluelet, the Mayor hosts a weekly talk show on Thursdays, and the Chamber of Commerce is in on Friday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15639             "Coastal Affairs" runs weekly in Tofino, associated with a nationally recognized news website, "".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15640             The radio stations we operate are staffed live every day of the week, and are true partners in community service, delivering a professional attitude and professional equipment, and supporting programming and business services locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15641             "We may be local, but we ain't yocal" is our motto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15642             We are particularly proud of our commitment to emergency services.  Recently, a young boy went missing on a beach near Tofino, and within hours, and, in part, through the publicity given by our radio stations, the largest land, air and sea search in the region's history was conducted.  Our public call for help had to be rescinded when authorities were overwhelmed by the response to our announcements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15643             Our Ucluelet operation includes an emergency broadcast position inside the Emergency Service Building, which is accessible 24 hours per day, seven days per week, by police and firefighters.  It is a simple breakaway switch that allows program interruption whenever officials deem it necessary, and when a staff member is not immediately available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15644             This emergency service was used recently to advise residents of extreme hazards on local beaches during a hurricane, and last year was incorporated into a coastal security exercise by the Canadian Navy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15645             We are integrated with the Provincial Emergency Service Program's Tsunami Warning System at the second level.  When a tsunami warning is issued, our operations are contacted after local and civic authorities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15646             Twice in the past three years we have rolled out a staff member to respond to tsunami warnings.  Fortunately, neither event resulted in an actual tsunami.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15647             We play local music by local artists like Lance Blackwell, The Bottomfeeders, Kinnie Star and Mark Morrison ‑‑ unknown here, but I assure you, widely exposed on our local radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15648             Let's face it, what's the point of having a local radio station if you don't play local artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15649             With a total coverage of about 8,000 persons, we run two, fully live, locally produced radio stations in some of the roughest climate on the coast.  We do so profitably, and we can do that in the tricities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15650             On March 3rd, the residents of Port Moody will head to City Hall to learn about their upcoming rapid transit project.  They won't hear about it on the FM dial in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15651             Commissioners, today you can change that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15652             We welcome your examination of our application for CKPM‑FM Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15653             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McBride and your team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15654             I will start with the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15655             Probably the easiest one to start with is the one that, I am sure, you will have anticipated from the days of hearing, and it concerns your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15656             Your format sounds, actually, exactly like Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Badh's proposed station, "The Planet", with the world beat and the jazz and all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15657             Could you explain what would be the difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15658             MR. McBRIDE:  Lucky guess on their part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15659             We went ahead and we developed a format that we felt, first of all, was unavailable in this market, and we wanted to get something that was going to stand out in the crowd for Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15660             Port Moody does have access to many of the Vancouver signals, quite clearly in some cases.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15661             We literally walked around and listened to what people were listening to in their shops and restaurants and businesses, and then we talked to them and we asked them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15662             We went without a perceived notion of what format we were going to introduce into Port Moody, because our intent, really, is a community radio station first, providing the services.  The format would be complementary to the delivery of services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15663             Throughout all of our research, we came up with a "Triple A" type of format, although I don't like that phrase, because it doesn't necessarily sum up what we perceive in our minds, but we have to peg it into something.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15664             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But how would the two stations sound different, or would they sound ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15665             In terms of the music, they will sound the same?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15666             MR. McBRIDE:  Going over the application by McLaughlin, to me, it looks like they are going to be much more focused on sort of an urban style, with a more worldly type of flavour, and less on the jazz side, from what I can interpret.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15667             They are looking at, also, what I believe is a softer sound than we are looking at.  We are looking at, sort of, a much more today‑type of sound, with less reliance on a gold library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15668             We are looking in Port Moody at something that, let's say, has a bit more of an edge to it, is a bit more contemporary, which certainly has a higher level of local and developing artists on a regular basis, and more of the jazzier side of it, as opposed to the world beat side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15669             There are some textual differences there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15670             They won't be talking about the rapid transit project, either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How would you describe the difference in the sound between, say, your station and Harvard's JANE‑FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15672             MR. McBRIDE:  Oh, that would be night and day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15673             JANE‑FM is targeting the disgruntled female, and we are not.  Our total target orientation is, first of all, skewed to a much younger audience.  If you will note, we are looking at an audience target that is almost ten years younger than JANE‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15674             We aren't targeting females exclusively, so there is going to be a male component, which is all theoretical anyway.  But it is going to have a much broader appeal to both male and female listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15675             Again, edgier ‑‑ lumpier, if you like that phrase ‑‑ and with a bit more bite to it.  We are not going to be lulling anybody into complacency with this radio station by patting them on the head and saying "There, there."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15676             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about Pattison's "Triple A"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15677             What would be the difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15678             MR. McBRIDE:  I am going to keep the same case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15679             As I mentioned, Commissioner, we filed this a month before they did.  I think they are copying us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15680             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, I am not talking about who is copying whom; I just want to know how it would sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15681             What would be the difference in the sound?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15682             At this stage I am not talking about who is copying whom.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15683             MR. McBRIDE:  Pattison is proposing something, again, that is significantly older in its target demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15684             They are all looking at people in their forties, and they are going to be aging their radio station probably on a continuation.  I can't guess what they will do in the future, but it will probably be a continuation of the experience they have learned from running AM 600, which has more of an adult standards feel to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15685             So, again, their sounds are likely to be smoother, softer, and less sort of in your face than the radio station we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15686             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  When I first came to Canada I lived in Port Moody, off Evergreen Drive.  I actually spent two years there.  Port Moody is quite small.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15687             When I look at your application, you use Port Moody sometimes, and tricities.  Are you a Port Moody station or a tricities station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15688             MR. McBRIDE:  The station is based in Port Moody.  That is where the signal will originate from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15689             The signal itself will trickle into Port Coquitlam and carry, according to our coverage maps, as far as the Wild Duck Inn, out along the Pitt River.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15690             That's what the footprint of the radio station is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15691             In order to develop an image for the radio station ‑‑ and I wanted to peg it against something that I could really bite into, and that is the Port Moody "City of the Arts" image.  Out of the tricities, Port Moody has the most clearly defined local "zeitgeist", if you will, so it was easier to build a radio station with that focal point in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15692             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am sure we can all name radio stations that, if I didn't read the decision, I wouldn't know what city they were supposed to serve or they were licensed for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15693             What is to stop you from reorienting the station toward something other than Port Moody once you are on air?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15694             MR. McBRIDE:  Do you mean, for instance, targeting Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15695             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15696             MR. McBRIDE:  The signal doesn't reach Vancouver.  It stops at Burnaby Mountain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15697             It actually goes east.  There is no appreciable coverage at all within the City of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15698             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have quite a good description of the programs.  When someone tunes to your station, how do they know right away, "I am listening to the Port Moody station"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15699             MR. McBRIDE:  The branding, for one, will certainly be reflective of the Port Moody area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15700             The other is the content.  I don't have any interest in competing in the Vancouver market right now, because it doesn't meet the model that I have already developed in the communities I currently serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15701             From that experience, I know how to zero‑in on a specific community, and there is no shortage of content in the Port Moody area to fulfil our content requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15702             There need not be a downtown Vancouver or a Granville in our Port Moody radio station, and I don't intend it.  If you do look at it, it is a small station in a very large community, a regional community.  The only way we are going to be able to attract and maintain an advertising base is if we make sure the advertisers hear their interests, as well, reflected on the radio on a constant basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15703             From a business point of view, if we signed on a Port Moody radio station that didn't carry into Vancouver, and behaved as though we were serving Vancouver, we would be bankrupt in no time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15704             It doesn't make business sense not to sell sandwiches in the community we are in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am trying to find a page in your application which I found quite helpful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15706             There is no page number, but it is section 4.2, "Sample Music Hour".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15707             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15708             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have four songs, and then station information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15709             Can you give me an example of what the station information will be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15710             Will it be just station ID?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15711             MR. McBRIDE:  That phrase includes all of the vocal content that is going to be fit into that particular segment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15712             Obviously we are going to ID the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15713             There is usually a positioning line of some kind, "Golden Spike Radio", or whatever the eventual name of the radio station will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15714             When I say station information, there will always be some structured element, whether it is some type of information, such as, in this case, weather or surveillance, which meets the needs of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15715             It is not just going to be the station ID followed by commercials, because that doesn't really make a radio station, that makes an automated radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15716             Station information will be whatever the moment calls for ‑‑ traffic, weather, arts, DJ ad lib in that case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15717             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your presentation you talked about your research approach.  I understand the part about business research.  Then, when you were doing the audience approach, you talked about using a qualitative approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15718             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15719             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you give us an example of what is a qualitative approach?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15720             MR. McBRIDE:  I can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15721             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15722             MR. McBRIDE:  The problem with contemporary research ‑‑ when organizations contract research companies to go out, they have to use pre‑loaded questions in order to get a valid response.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15723             Somebody phones you and, let's say, we are researching a radio station that targets a 40‑year‑old disgruntled female, for example.  What they will do is contract a service agency and say:  Find that individual, and find something they like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15724             A researcher, in order to get some response, has to say, "Would you listen to a radio station that played Phil Collins, Dr. Drey, or Chopin," for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15725             In other words, there would be that sort of structured question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15726             The qualitative approach doesn't have that same sort of prompt, of structure; it is inquisitive in nature.  We say, "What do you like?  What are you listening to?  Of your preferences, which way do you go?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15727             So it takes a little time, and it can only be done in either an individual or a focus group type of environment, and that's the way we approached it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15728             The traditional research method reveals raw data that scientists can crunch, but all it ever produces is Phil Collins.  It doesn't produce Feist or any of those other artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15729             So a qualitative approach is much more about what the person is actually involved in than a prompted response.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15730             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Going back to your format ‑‑ and I know there was a round of deficiency responses on Canadian content, that portion ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15731             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15732             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, here you are talking about the jazz sub‑category, aren't you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15733             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15734             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15735             In the jazz and blues sub‑category ‑‑ and, counsel, please correct me if I am wrong ‑‑ the required minimum content is that 20 percent of the jazz and blues to be played must be Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15736             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Here you are proposing 12.5 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15738             MR. McBRIDE:  No, I'm not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15739             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15740             MR. McBRIDE:  The 12.5 percent is the total amount of jazz and blues in total that we are proposing for the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15741             Canadian content ‑‑ you are talking about extensive administration for a small operation.  We are just going to play 35 percent Canadian content in all categories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15742             It is much easier that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15743             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What percent of the music that you play will be Category 3 music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15744             MR. McBRIDE:  We are anticipating 25 percent Category 3, and half of that will be defined, by CRTC terms, as jazz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15745             And the other 12.5 percent will be defined as world beat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15746             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I see where I misread.  Of the jazz and the world beat that you play, it is 12.5, it is not 12.5 Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15747             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, that's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15748             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will go more into the specifics of the application now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15749             Spoken word ‑‑ can you confirm the number of hours of total spoken word, including structured and unstructured, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15750             MR. McBRIDE:  In the opening remarks I indicated that the structured spoken word programming will be 872 minutes, in total, including all of our news, weather and sports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15751             In addition to that we used a rule of thumb in order to determine how much unstructured stuff ‑‑ which is the DJ ad lib and the DJ patter.  I always forecast 5 minutes an hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15752             Because with all of the other content, now you are up at 9, 10, 11 minutes of DJs, and that's a great ratio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15753             So I would estimate 5 minutes per hour.  For planning purposes, that is 630 minutes per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15754             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I am trying to get to the appendix of your spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15755             Is it 8(c) or ‑‑

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15756             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What proportion of your spoken word will be newscasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15757             MR. McBRIDE:  That will be 198 minutes per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15758             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of that, what would be pure news and what would be spoken word "Other"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15759             MR. McBRIDE:  That refers exclusively to the news content only.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15760             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see that you have not opted to do an afternoon drive news as a newscast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15761             MR. McBRIDE:  That's right.  What we intend to do there is cover ‑‑ the traffic and the weather surveillance is ‑‑ since you are a Port Moody former resident, you know that is pretty much all there is to focus in on out there, and the information of the day, at that time ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15762             First of all, we are not going to compete as a hard news station.  We want the information arising from the DJ contribution and ad libs to be much more socially and culturally focused ‑‑ What is happening today; what is happening tonight; what is happening tomorrow ‑‑ which could not be quantified as actual news.  So, therefore, it doesn't exist there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15763             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  During the afternoon drive, would your schedule of the frequency of the surveillance information and the station information just be more frequent, between songs, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15764             MR. McBRIDE:  During the drive periods ‑‑ the peak periods ‑‑ I am anticipating five breaks per hour, where additional content in addition to music would be provided, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15765             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you clarify the total time that you are devoting to the "Port Moody Talks" program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15766             MR. McBRIDE:  It says in my submission 30 minutes per day, five days per week.  And then, in my presentation here, I said 25 minutes.  That is because I withdrew 5 minutes for possible commercials during that timeframe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15767             So it should be 25 minutes net of commercials, or 125 minutes per week for "Port Moody Talks".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15768             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On your CCD initiatives, I see from your application that you are going to earmark them for District 43 schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15769             MR. McBRIDE:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15770             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Between the time you filed the application and now, have you spoken to or approached any of the schools?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15771             MR. McBRIDE:  I have verified, through the District itself, their donation policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15772             They have a fairly structured and disciplined donation policy regarding cash contributions to the school, because they don't like to have money floating around involuntarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15773             So the protocol I have established with the District is on how they would receive the money, and how it can be directed to approved CCD development initiatives, but it does have to go through the District.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15774             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think that's where the clarification is required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15775             I know that in your reply you sent us to the link of the policy, and I can appreciate, perhaps, the rigidity of some of their policies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15776             How would you be able to ensure that the District or the schools that receive the funds will direct them to the initiatives, or that they will be spent according to the CCD requirements of the Commercial Radio Policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15777             MR. McBRIDE:  I would obtain from the School District a letter to file with the Commission in support of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15778             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, good.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15779             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in the qualitative research that you did, did you draw any conclusions on whether any particular segment of your target audience is more or less served by the existing stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15780             MR. McBRIDE:  No, because that wasn't really the direction that we found ourselves going into.  We kind of ‑‑ as you know, we showed up in Port Moody and started talking to people with a crazy idea.  And we weren't really looking for dissatisfaction.  That wasn't our direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15781             THE CHAIRPERSON:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15782             MR. McBRIDE:  What we were really looking for was ‑‑ we have some experience in doing small town radio.  Is there a small town that we could do more of it in?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15783             And so that's the way our research was approached, not from a dissatisfaction point of view but what would either improved satisfaction ‑‑ or how could we introduce a new product to the market rather than enhancing or replacing an existing one.  So no, we really didn't find out where we ‑‑ you know, who was lacking in service in that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15784             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You talk about the experience you have had in Tofino and Ucluelet.  I take it from your comments today that those stations are doing well and are profitable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15785             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, they are.  Ucluelet signed on September 1st last year in a profitable status and has never lost money.  It's been profitable from day one.  We were sold out from November to February of last year at nine minutes an hour from 6 a.m. until 10 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15786             You don't know until you get there how much people love their local radio, in a way that you can't love a radio station in Vancouver because there is too many choices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15787             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry.  No, go ahead, you finish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15788             MR. McBRIDE:  Well, Commissioner, I mean I can ramble on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15789             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no.  No, go ahead.  I do want to listen to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15790             MR. McBRIDE:  And I will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15791             They don't have a local radio station in these markets.  They do have repeaters and a number of pirate signals that are out there from all of the Vancouver stations, five or six of them out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15792             But the local radio station talks about the rain, which is really big out there.  We do surf reports every single hour of the day seven days a week; tide, row reports and marine weather every single hour of the day because that information is so vital.  What they like is the service, not necessarily the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15793             Our music it's like a salad.  You know, whatever happens to be the flavour of the day that fits works out there.  The local artist ‑‑ and there is many ‑‑ releases a new album and they just show up and begin playing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15794             So it's the interaction between the community that makes the small markets fun to be on, but that actually translates into revenue because the businesses recognize that through their support of the radio station they keep it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15795             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will come back to this, but right now just a short answer on Tofino.  How long has that been on the air?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15796             MR. McBRIDE:  It signed on in 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15797             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15798             MR. McBRIDE:  October 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15799             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And it is enjoying the same success as Ucluelet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15800             MR. McBRIDE:  Somewhat less.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15801             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15802             MR. McBRIDE:  Tofino did replace an existing radio station that collapsed for non‑financial reasons prior to that, CHOO‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But does ‑‑ Tofino would receive your Ucluelet station signal, wouldn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15804             MR. McBRIDE:  Through the miracle of technology both signals meet in the middle of Long Beach so you can't hear one in the other market.  It's amazing how that happened.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15805             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  How many other stations serve Ucluelet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15806             MR. McBRIDE:  CRTC‑approved stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15807             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and then you can also tell me about the non‑approved stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15808             MR. McBRIDE:  I think there is one licensed repeater in Tofino.  There is none that I know of in Ucluelet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15809             There are ‑‑ hobbyists pickup signals and have repeated them in the market because they have never had the radio service.  There is two additional, as far as I know, unregulated signals in Ucluelet and an additional one in Tofino that tends to come on and go off the air depending on how we are performing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15810             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So Tofino has, just summarize ‑‑ has one other authorized signal.  Is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15811             MR. McBRIDE:  I am not sure it's authorized, Commissioner.  I don't want to get into trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15812             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, okay.  So Tofino has one other signal?  Can I ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15813             MR. McBRIDE:  Two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15814             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two other signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15815             MR. McBRIDE:  One I think is authorized, Jack‑FM, and CFMI a repeater in that market.  And Jack‑FM and CFMI and JR Country are repeated in Ucluelet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15816             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And again those are the authorized signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15817             MR. McBRIDE:  I have no idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15818             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So in Tofino you can also hear Jack‑FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15819             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15820             THE CHAIRPERSON:  JR Country and, I am sorry, you just mentioned?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15821             MR. McBRIDE:  Jack‑FM and CFMI in Tofino.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15822             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15823             MR. McBRIDE:  In Tofino, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15824             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On 101.1, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15825             What about Ucluelet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15826             MR. McBRIDE:  Jack‑FM, CFMI and JR‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15827             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15828             MR. McBRIDE:  And we beat them all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15829             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry, what were you going to say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15830             MR. McBRIDE:  I say we beat them all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15831             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15832             You don't know at this point whether they are authorized but it sounds like they are not that reliable signals?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15833             MR. McBRIDE:  They are great signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15834             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15835             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, they are full power.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15836             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So what were you referring to that there was a signal that came in and out?  What signal were you referring to then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15837             MR. McBRIDE:  Oh, in Tofino ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15838             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15839             MR. McBRIDE:  ‑‑ whoever is running that particular signal for CFMI if they like us and we are playing the music they like they turn CFMI off.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15840             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15841             MR. McBRIDE:  It's an unusual place out there, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What do you see are the differences, the main differences between how you have to do business in Tofino and Ucluelet and how you are going to have to do business here in Port Moody?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15843             MR. McBRIDE:  Well, first of all, there is a much better critical mass in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15844             THE CHAIRPERSON:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15845             MR. McBRIDE:  There is simply a lot more businesses in a similarly dense environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15846             The Port Moody in the trading area out there is not particularly exploded or hard to reach.  And that's the same in any small town.  You have generally one or two downtown or commercial centres and peripheral industry on the outlying areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15847             And the reason Port Moody stands out is because of that.  It's got a geography that really is clearly identifiable.  You can look on a map and say, "I am in Port Moody", a great place to start.  It has two identifiable commercial districts along St. John's and in the new Newport Village development areas with significant clusters of commercial activity.  And so it has a critical mass and I think it will be easier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15848             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What do you see are the challenges?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15849             MR. McBRIDE:  Comparison to other radio stations and the perception that we might not be ‑‑ we might not be a big city.  That's always a risk when you run a local radio station, is that there will be a desire for some people to want to be something other than local, see themselves as bigger than their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15850             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But I think that one of the challenges that are immediately apparent is that competition will be a lot stiffer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15851             MR. McBRIDE:  I doubt that, Commissioner.  The competition out there isn't for radio.  There is nobody in Vancouver selling $20 or $30 spots out there, you know.  And unless anyone is listening right now that's going to go out and drink my milkshake, I think we are pretty safe with our rate card.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15852             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15853             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just want to turn to your programming expenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15854             I think of your expenses, of your total expenses.  What proportion is payroll and benefits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15855             MR. McBRIDE:  You are referring to the seven‑year forecast, Commissioner?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15856             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15857             MR. McBRIDE:  Then I will look at the same document.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15858             MR. McBRIDE:  It is going to be fairly high given the payroll requirements versus the anticipated revenue and in the neighbourhood of 50 or 60 percent initially.  That figure will decline as revenue builds, but the payroll expense will be quite high.  In order to staff it at a competitive level we have to ‑‑ we have to eat profit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15859             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how many ‑‑ did you say six and a half staff?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15860             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, we are going to start out looking at about six and a half people on the operation.  Because we already have existing business infrastructure we can provide backend services; accounting, financial services, so that we don't have to reduplicate them in any given location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15861             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And this will be 6.5 new positions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15862             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15863             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15864             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15865             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would the ‑‑ what are the 6.5?  What are those positions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15866             MR. McBRIDE:  I have a station manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15867             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15868             MR. McBRIDE:  A position that will involve in a station of this size, of course, some programming duties; a salesperson, a newsperson, two to three programming hosts who have other additional duties like programming and a creative and a production individual.  And there is also an allocation for some relief work based on the requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15869             It would be virtually all in programming and sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15870             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15871             MR. McBRIDE:  So that's where ‑‑ one specific sales representative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15872             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then looking at again your financial projections, the line on programming that does not include any of the salary and benefits, expenses that you referred to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15873             MR. McBRIDE:  No, I take out all of those in building these plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15874             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15875             MR. McBRIDE:  And I put ‑‑ all of the payroll falls under its own category.  So what you are seeing there is purely the departmental budgets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15876             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15877             And you are projecting an audience share of 1 percent for year one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15878             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15879             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And you are quite confident that you will ‑‑ you can achieve that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15880             MR. McBRIDE:  Absolutely.  That's a very modest figure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15881             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, compared to the rest of Canada and B.C., Vancouver stations seem to have to spend a bit more than the rest for programming expenses.  Your programming expenses and general expenses are quite low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15882             So we may be covering the ground again but this reflects our concern on your ability to compete with all of the other signals that will be coming into the market that you want to serve.  Can you comment on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15883             MR. McBRIDE:  Where other stations are going to invest in a number of different programming items; imported feature programming, production services, et cetera, this is why our payroll is comparatively higher according to our overall budget.  We are just going to use people on the radio, on the air as much as possible to create that relationship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15884             You know, you can go the bells and gong route but that's not our intent nor do we make any representation that we are going to compete with the Vancouver radio station.  We are going to carve out a niche there and fill a local marketing opportunity that we perceive with human beings talking about Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15885             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And your projected PBIT profit which is relatively optimistic is based on what you have been talking about on the research and the business guarantee that you have already conducted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15886             MR. McBRIDE:  A combination.  I mean the research ‑‑ I would say that our financial forecasts are actually modest for what we had discovered in the research.  I prefer to be modest in that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15887             My experiences already in some of the smallest markets in this country indicate that you can anticipate a higher return if the product is delivered effectively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15888             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15889             I was interested when you talked about the voice tracked ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15890             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15891             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15892             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15893             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you elaborate on that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15894             MR. McBRIDE:  Of course I can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15895             Everybody voice tracks here and all across the country we voice track.  And what it has become is a way of cost control exercise for one or, in some cases, an ability to distribute one voice over wide areas and multiple stations at the same time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15896             But voice tracking should really be a way for a programmer or a station operator to get the possible announcer on the air.  We are not dealing and we won't be dealing with the highest and the best paid broadcasters in the business.  We will be dealing with some young people, likely straight out of BCIT or shortly thereafter, who show capacity or ability.  And by using a voice tracked environment we can actually use that to get them better and to improve our product to a point where it is more palatable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15897             So the use of voice tracking can either be as a cost control device or as a quality control device and a developmental tool.  And that's the way I choose to see voice tracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15898             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What would be the typical ‑‑ the content of your voice tracked programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15899             MR. McBRIDE:  It wouldn't sound any different from a live program.  That's the whole point, is that the evening program does not all of a sudden become paced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15901             MR. McBRIDE:  You know?  We continue on.  The voice tracker will be required to deliver the same content and participate as a full member of the operation.  It's just that, given the skill level that we are anticipating right now, that it would be more effective for them to use the voice tracking technique to perfect their craft.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15902             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15903             MR. McBRIDE:  It also, Commissioner, gives them a chance to hear themselves on the radio, which is very difficult for developing broadcasters to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15904             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, are you ‑‑ are you planning for any syndicated programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15905             MR. McBRIDE:  That would be counter to our philosophy of a local radio station, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15906             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you anticipate any synergies with Tofino and Ucluelet apart from what you had already mentioned, some backroom accounting and such administrative costs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15907             MR. McBRIDE:  No.  Again, even in Tofino and Ucluelet, which are only 40 kilometres away from each other, we do not share any services because it defeats the whole point of having a local radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15908             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15909             Why do you think this is the best use of the 98.7 frequency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15910             MR. McBRIDE:  From a technical point of view it works extremely well in that particular area.  It delivers a very crisp, clean, well‑defined signal that doesn't encroach on the Vancouver market so we can leave that market to the heavier players who are here today.  It does something a little different with the radio business in general.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15911             We are looking at taking a community and serving one community with one radio station.  That model originally was used to develop most of the radio markets in Canada and our experience in operating these very small community‑focused radio stations has been extremely positive and it's time for us, our operations group here to roll that idea out into slightly larger communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15912             So we are going from, you know, Tofino and Ucluelet let's say both total footprints 4,000 to something that is less than 10 times that large with essentially the same principle.  Can we do local, tightly‑focused, highly customer and listener‑oriented community radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15913             And now we would like to do it in the context of a larger market because I think it will work quite well and provide an exciting alternative without damaging or taking away from any other of the very successful broadcasters in the market today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15914             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe Commissioner Duncan has some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15915             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I do have some questions, mostly because I'm from the other end of the country and I am not familiar with the area.  So if you wouldn't mind helping me out?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15916             So did I understand you to just say that Ucluelet and Tofino have a population of 4,000 combined?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15917             MR. McBRIDE:  No, 8,000 combined.  Between 8 and 10 is the estimate for the entire coverage region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15918             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And is Pemberton in that, included in that or is it different again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15919             MR. McBRIDE:  No, Pemberton is north of Whistler.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15920             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And what would your population be there that you are serving?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15921             MR. McBRIDE:  The total audience coverage up there is 6,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15922             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And I notice in your application that your forecasted numbers are something ‑‑ or your market area served I think is around 30,000, just under 30,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15923             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15924             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  But when I look at the map and I see that in the 3 millivolts is Coquitlam and Port Coquitlam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15925             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15926             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So is that in your numbers?  Are those in your numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15927             MR. McBRIDE:  No, they are not.  We are targeting the city of Port Moody with our application and so we are using only the Port Moody figures, household figures and audience figures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15928             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.  So will your signal spill over into Port Coquitlam?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15929             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, it will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15930             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And are there radio stations in those two communities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15931             MR. McBRIDE:  No, there aren't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15932             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  There aren't either.  Okay, all right.  I am just trying to get an idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15933             And so what ‑‑ I would think you would get some spin‑off benefit there even though I know you are telling ‑‑ it's a local station but what would be the population of those communities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15934             MR. McBRIDE:  The Tri‑Cities area is the figure that we know and it's 207,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15935             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And there is no radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15936             MR. McBRIDE:  Not yet.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15937             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  How many thousand again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15938             MR. McBRIDE:  207,000, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15939             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay, I won't ask that question again.  Okay, all right.  Thank you, all right, just trying to understand that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15940             And so the Vancouver stations because of the topography are those signals received in Port Moody then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15941             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15942             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  They are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15943             So your ‑‑ I know your audience projections are a percentage of the total Vancouver market.  So I guess really I am just relying on your income projections and you are showing, as the Chair pointed out, a positive cash flow in year one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15944             MR. McBRIDE:  We have done that everywhere else we have been, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15945             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes, that's good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15946             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15947             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15948             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15949             Just a couple of follow‑up questions; 207 residents in the Tri‑City area, that's your full coverage area?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15950             MR. McBRIDE:  207,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15951             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  207,000, right.  And your core audience is 25 to 44.  What is the median age of your listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15952             MR. McBRIDE:  34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15953             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15954             MR. McBRIDE:  Is sort of where we settled on as the building point for our target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15955             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you are not skewing male or female?  You think pretty much it is going to be even between the two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15956             MR. McBRIDE:  Our indications are that this format properly presented appeals to both genders equally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15957             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  And in terms of the format you just confirmed that the Vancouver radio signals are received in this Tri‑City area.  Are all of them received?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15958             MR. McBRIDE:  In varying degrees of quality.  There is Burnaby Mountain which gets in the way and can impair certain signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15959             So they are all receivable out there, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15960             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And I heard you say earlier that you are going to carve out a niche and I understand that it's going to be primarily with your spoken word programming because it will be community‑based and it will be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15961             Because when I look at your sample playlist; Killers, Amy Winehouse, Snow Patrol, Blue October, I am going to hear those on Hot AC stations, for example, that are coming from Vancouver in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15962             MR. McBRIDE:  I would disagree with that, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15963             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, well, maybe I hear them on Toronto Hot AC stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15964             MR. McBRIDE:  Their signals don't carry to Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15965             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That would be more likely the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15966             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15967             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I am sorry, can you repeat that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15968             MS COPELAND:  Yes, you would probably hear them in Toronto.  But I think Matthew is still whining that he never hears his favourite gal, Amy Winehouse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15969             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  So your contention is that perhaps hot AC stations are in fact in this area programmed differently than they would be in other parts of the country?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15970             MS COPELAND:  I think so, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15971             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  So it's not just going to be simply on your local programming that you will carve out the niche.  It will be as well with the music that you will be providing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15972             MR. McBRIDE:  Our intent in selecting this musical direction was to provide new music.  And that music is, in our opinion ‑‑ we all live here.  We all listen to the radio ‑‑ is that it's not being heard.  I'm certain it is played in this market but I haven't heard an Amy Winehouse record, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15973             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And I agree with you.  I just hope she gets her act together so she can continue providing the talent, but she is amazing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15974             MR. McBRIDE:  Before she drinks herself to death, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15975             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the other thing I wanted to say, Ms ‑‑ Doreen.  I am just going to call you Doreen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15976             MS COPELAND:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15977             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I agree with you on Falling Slowly and most important and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15978             MS COPELAND:  Did you see the movie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15979             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I haven't but I loved their acceptance speech.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15980             MS COPELAND:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15981             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That's all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15982             Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15983             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15984             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Sorry, just a quick question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15985             In terms of establishing your identity as a local station, Tofino you mentioned doing the hourly surf report, rain; expected tides; the fishing report, et cetera.  That is obviously very well suited to those communities.  What would be the equivalent that would be well suited in the Port Moody/Port Coquitlam area?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15986             MR. McBRIDE:  Tide reports, fishing reports.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15987             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Fishing, no surf though?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15988             MR. McBRIDE:  You can't get a big wave out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15989             The recreational aspects of that area ‑‑ it's at the head of Burrard Inlet and Reed Point Marina is there.  It is one of the largest marinas in the region.  Fishing and tide reports are absolutely critical out there.  The region has a significant recreational network in terms of cycling pathways and outdoor activities and those types of things will take prominence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15990             Weather means everything out here and the weather in Surrey is not the weather in Port Moody so those, again, distinguish the local area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15991             But in addition to that the relation is going to be with the community activities which, when you visit Port Moody, you discover it really does have its own mindset and its own place and it's an excellent hook to hang a local radio station on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15992             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15993             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15994             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. McBride, panellists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15995             MR. McBRIDE:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15996             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In talking about the other radio stations that you own in Ucluelet, Tofino and Pemberton you say your dedication to community service is simple, 100 percent local content and you use uber‑service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15997             MR. McBRIDE:  Uber‑service, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15998             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And you regularly host live performances there and deliver a high level of local emerging artist exposure and it's staffed entirely by locals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15999             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16000             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You find them, you train them and you let them reflect their talents and villages.  And the you describe some of the characters that you have developed ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16001             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16002             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ Chainsaw Pete and Jim the Naked Oyster Farmer and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16003             MR. McBRIDE:  He is a real person, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16004             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And so these are real people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16005             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16006             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And so they decide their own content?  They just come forward with a show and you play them to reflect the community or do you help ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16007             MR. McBRIDE:  You don't do that with Jim or Chainsaw.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16008             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16009             MR. McBRIDE:  I mean we have to control them and, you know, they are guests on our morning and our afternoon shows and they provide regular contributions ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16010             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, I see, so there is an announcer interacting with them that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16011             MR. McBRIDE:  Oh, yes, we have a morning host and the Duke of Yuke in the afternoon, yes, and they just kind of rope in these characters.  It's almost like a drop‑in radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16012             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you identified Port Moody characters of a similar nature that might provide a similar role in this proposed radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16013             MR. McBRIDE:  The Hat Lady.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16014             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The Hat Lady?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16015             MR. McBRIDE:  The Hat Lady everyone knows her out there.  And absolutely, she was one of the earliest supporters of this idea and, in fact, a motivator for us to continue working, the Hat Lady.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16016             MR. STANSFIELD:  Everyone knows the Hat Lady.  As a resident of that region, of Port Moody and I live, as I said before, in the heart of it in a new development called Newport Village, in my research in talking with people on the street in their face everybody ‑‑ their eyes lit up and it was like "You mean our own radio station?"  And there are characters out there.  There are people that we can approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16017             I have a good friend of mine that is a musician and has been for years, plays in a local band and such.  But he has played with some of the greatest names in music over the years and there is a character there that can be built.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16018             So the region, you know, I guess you could say is built with a number of characters and the Hat Lady is one of them right in the heart of Newport Village.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16019             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What is the significance of this Hat Lady, like what does she offer?  I want to know what motivates you.  You said that's what motivated you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16020             MR. McBRIDE:  She will probably get a job if I describe it.  A remarkable outgoing personality who is just a naturally funny person and a talker who has ‑‑ runs a hat shop and it is kind of a character clothing shop.  But because of that she knows every single person in the community and can drop names at the drop of a hat and is entirely and totally interested in what goes on in Port Moody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16021             And that is the extent of her world and she loves it.  And she conveys that energy so well that when I met her the very first time I immediately thought there is somebody for this operation.  That's the kind of person we want to have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16022             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you very much for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16023             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe Commissioner Duncan has a follow‑up question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16024             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Yes, I just have two questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16025             In your remarks this morning you mentioned that 40 percent of your total songs played will meet your definition of emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16026             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16027             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And I am just wondering if you would be willing to accept a COL that 40 percent of your music would be emerging artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16028             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16029             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And that's ‑‑ all right.  Well, if you have no problem with doing that?  That's a high content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16030             MR. McBRIDE:  Oh, absolutely.  It's where we are going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16031             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.  That's your local, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16032             The other point I wanted to ask you about you made an arrangement, I understand from Mr. Stursberg's remarks yesterday, to coexist with CBC ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16033             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16034             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  ‑‑ using that frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16035             And I am just wondering, are there are risks associated with that, like potential costs to you if certain conditions aren't met if their signal is interfered with?  What type of a cost does that potentially involve for you and is that reflected in your statements, your projections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16036             MR. McBRIDE:  No, the costs aren't reflected in there because the best consultative advice from our engineers is that we don't anticipate one.  If we do experience one we are looking at something in the neighbourhood of $10 to $15,000 in additional engineering required in order to shield ourselves from each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16037             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  And in your discussions with CBC that's how they would see it as well.  I mean that that would be the magnitude of the problem or do they concern ‑‑ I am sure they must concern themselves with that.  They must think it is solvable if they ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16038             MR. McBRIDE:  They do think it's solvable.  They do think that that is speculative at this stage.  I mean you never really know until we turn it on.  I'm certain that their solution will come in at a different dollar value than ours, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16039             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  But one you can afford?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16040             MR. McBRIDE:  Well, we will afford our own, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16041             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  All right.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16042             That's it, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16043             THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more follow ‑‑ well, I should never commit myself to the number of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16044             But I know that ‑‑ looking at your contour and you had mentioned today that Maillardville falls within your, I think, 5 millivolt contour, are you planning any French programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16045             MR. McBRIDE:  The station will be an English‑language station but when you are dealing with a community event such as those in Maillardville; yes, the notion of French does trickle out.  But we will not be catering to the French language, no ‑‑ French music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16046             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, one more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16047             Well, you know, on the local stations I acknowledge what you were saying about they are probably not going to hear about the Port Moody council meeting even on an issue as important as the Evergreen Line but I think the congestion in the Tri‑Cities, the traffic there is actually covered by the local stations because that is very much a part of the commuter traffic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16048             Now, how do you plan to do it better?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16049             MR. McBRIDE:  I think in this case it's not a matter of necessarily doing it better because there is only one way to report a traffic jam and it's by saying that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16050             However, if we didn't have that as part of our programming we wouldn't be providing the service that we propose.  And that obviously would be a reason for somebody to look for that service elsewhere, so that our traffic programming simply becomes an identifying device for the radio station but a market reality.  In this region if you don't cover traffic and weather you are not in the game at all.  So that's our approach there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before I turn it over to Legal just some ‑‑ how many do you think we should licence for the Vancouver market?  And if you were to be one of the recipients of the licence who else do you believe would be the most compatible with you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16052             MR. McBRIDE:  I liked every applicant this week, for starters, because we all seem to be going in roughly the same direction and it validates our sensibilities about broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16053             There are a couple that I thought did standout quite well and, you know, certainly from a formatic point of view the McLaughlin one looks so darn much like ours that I can't but admire their genius in coming up with that format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16054             I really liked the SKY‑FM because, you know, I had previously been part of an application for that format several years ago in Vancouver and I really believe that that format has a big place in this city and that's a gap that needs to be filled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16055             But I also liked Astral and Harvard.  You know, nobody put a bad proposal together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16056             And so I would have to say that if I had to ‑‑ if I had to choose I wouldn't really.  I would have to leave to you.  But you haven't heard a bad application this week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16057             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16058             Ms Pinsky, our legal counsel, has some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16059             MS PINSKY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I just have a couple of follow‑up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16060             With regard to the emerging artist commitment you have indicated that 20 percent of all musical selections would be Canadian emerging artists.  Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16061             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16062             MS PINSKY:  And would you commit to that level by way of a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16063             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16064             MS PINSKY:  Thank you

LISTNUM 1 \l 16065             Then with regard to the subcategory 34 jazz selections you have indicated as well through your discussions with the Chair that 12.5 percent of the subcategory 34, that you would have 12.5 percent of subcategory 34.  As I believe you are aware, and as the Chair was explaining, the Commission's expectation is that 20 percent of that amount would be Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16066             Would you be willing to accept a condition of licence requiring you to broadcast 20 percent of your subcategory 34 specifically as Canadian content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16067             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16068             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16069             And then, just finally, you have undertaken to file a letter from the school district with respect to the CCD eligibility criteria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16070             MR. McBRIDE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16071             MS PINSKY:  When would you be in a position to do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16072             MR. McBRIDE:  If I can have until Monday afternoon?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16073             MS PINSKY:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16074             MR. McBRIDE:  It's report card time right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16075             MS PINSKY:  The end of the day Monday is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16076             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16077             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16078             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McBride and your team, so this is the opportunity for your last minute pitch as to why you believe you should receive a licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16079             MR. McBRIDE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16080             Commissioners, CKPM‑FM Port Moody is the 17th applicant in a process that in our opinion has 17 very good applications presented to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16081             We are not competing for a Vancouver licence, however.  We are competing for an idea, the idea where a local community can have a local radio station that suits their needs, serves their purposes and is a true mirror of the community.  A radio station that drops names; you  know, where people who make things happen in your hometown are heard; where stores, restaurants, auto dealers, mechanics and even home‑based craft sellers can have their chance to advertise their products, sell their business services and profit through the cost‑effective use of local radio advertising; a simple fun‑loving local community station where the garage band could actually get a record on the radio even if only for one spin; where the Tri‑Cities' hockey championship game scores will be broadcast and where the mayor, the council, the local MP and the MLA all have a chance to speak and be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16082             Port Moody and the Tri‑Cities biggest community festivals won't be overlooked or buried in the last 60 seconds of a late night newscast as filler.  They will be front and centre with our full commitment and coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16083             CKPM is a community radio station and programming; community involvement and personality; operated by professional broadcasters looking to capture some of the truly great things about our business, things like having some room to speak, to make musical decisions, to build a real on‑air personality, to take a program schedule, inject their passion into it and make it a fun, exciting and relevant reflection of the people they serve; a small town radio station in a small town just the other side of Burnaby Mountain bringing the magic of local radio into the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16084             Commissioners, we have done this before and we will do it again.  Thank you for considering our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16085             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McBride and your team for your time and the presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16086             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16087             Ms Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16088             THE SECRETARY:  We will take a 15‑minute break, but I would ask all the applicants to come and see me to tell me if they wish to do Phase II or not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16089             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0955 / Suspension à 0955

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1019 / reprise à 1019

LISTNUM 1 \l 16090             THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16091             We have now reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16092             0785330 B.C., Touch Canada, Newcap, Harvard, Astral Media Radio, Evanov Communication, Nirenderjit Pataria, Jim Pattison, 902890 Alberta, Frank Torres and Matthew Gordon McBride have indicated that they will not appear in Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16093             Therefore, I would ask Vista Radio to come forward to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16094             MS MICALLEF:  Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Margot Micallef and I'm the Chair and CEO of Vista Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16095             To my right is Brian Edwards who's the Vice‑Chair of Vista Radio and to my left is Tony Gardner,

our consulting engineer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16096             Madam Chair and Commissioners, we would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to intervene at this stage of the proceeding.  We will be brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16097             We have focused perhaps late in the day on the CBC application gazetted as No. 27 for Nanaimo in CRTC Public ‑‑ sorry, CRTC Notice of Public Hearing 2007‑18 and not raised, however, by the Commission in its preamble for Vancouver in the same notice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16098             The application would, if approved as gazetted, prevent the use of 104.1 megahertz in Vancouver by any of the commercial applicants for Vancouver at this hearing for a Class C station on 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16099             We do not oppose the CBC application, we would like, however, to be part of a solution that would be more productive and ensure a more efficient use of the last remaining FM frequency in Vancouver than would the improvement or replacement of an existing service by a Class B‑1 station on 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16100             We noted on pages 3 and 4 of the CBC's answer to a Commission deficiency question regarding whether the corporation had considered the use of another frequency for its Nanaimo proposal, the CBC's response was as follows:

"With respect to our proposed use of Channel 281 B‑1 for Nanaimo, we have determined that there are no other viable FM frequencies to serve this market.  Other frequencies we have examined, in our assessment, would have resulted in interference to incumbent broadcasters which they, as is their right under Industry Canada's rules, were not prepared to accept."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 16101             MS MICALLEF:  Vista was never consulted by the CBC on any technical solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16102             Madam Chair, Commissioners, Vista would, in fact, be prepared to waive its rights under Industry Canada's rules and accept some minor interference to its Duncan B.C. station on Vancouver Island if it made possible the implementation of the CBC's proposal for Nanaimo while allowing the use of 104.1 in Vancouver by Vista.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16103             Vista is no stranger to the need for accommodation to maximize the efficient use of the spectrum.  Less than a year ago it was denied the use of 94.1 in Powell River, in part because its proposed technical parameters were mutually exclusive with the CBC's long‑range radio plan to implement Radio One in Powell River and Radio Two in Campbell River.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16104             Similarly, Vista was denied its proposal to use 106.1 in Campbell River because Vista's proposal for a conversion to FM, it was argued, would have expanded the contours of its existing AM station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16105             In each case, Vista's application was approved in part only and Vista was required to submit an amendment to its application proposing the use of another frequency and another transmitter site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16106             Vista applauds the Pattison Group's resourcefulness in proposing at this hearing to use 100.5 FM to accommodate its AM flip.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16107             Pattison is in the unique position to use this frequency while no one else can because Pattison can compromise its own Victoria frequency, the 104.1 frequency thereby remains available in Vancouver even as Pattison implements its AM flip.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16108             Pattison's proposal thus facilitates the efficient management of the spectrum for the greater good of the greater number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16109             In the same spirit, Vista has examined how it could be licensed on 104.1 while, given the limited spectrum available, facilitating the CBC's proposal to better serve Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16110             Vista's consulting engineer, Tony Gardner, has only very recently found a technical solution that would accommodate the CBC's proposal to improve service to Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16111             There is evidence that the CBC could use 89.5 megahertz for its Nanaimo proposal.  Currently, through the use of 89.7 megahertz, Vista serves Duncan, Chemainus and Ladysmith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16112             Vista would be prepared to accept some slight impairment to its coverage if licensed on 104.1 in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16113             The net result would be three successful applications in a technically congested market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16114             We have consulted with the CBC in the last 10 days and immediately upon learning of this possibility, and are prepared to work with their engineers on the spectrum utilization plan which we believe to be strongly in the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16115             We believe that we could have a full technical brief by the end of March or mid‑April at the latest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16116             We understand the CBC's reluctance to agree at this stage that this technical solution would allow them to implement their proposal in Nanaimo.  We are confident, however, as to its feasibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16117             We thank the Commission for hearing us and welcome your questions at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16118             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16119             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning, Ms Micallef.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16120             Just to be absolutely clear, this information that you have provided us this morning would only apply to the CBC in solving that solution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16121             MS MICALLEF:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16122             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You were not prepared to make this type of accommodation for anybody else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16123             MS MICALLEF:  Frankly, we hadn't discussed that, so, I apologize, your question did catch me by surprise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16124             I think at this point, without having further opportunity to discuss the matter with my colleagues, we would take the position that it is available only for the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16125             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, that's fine.  I just wanted that confirmation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16126             MS MICALLEF:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16127             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16128             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just so I'm clear, you're currently serving Duncan, Chemainus and Ladysmith through 89.5; right?  And what level of interference would 89.7 give you; how would it restrict your service in those areas?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16129             MS MICALLEF:  We're serving Duncan, Ladysmith and Chemainus on 89.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16130             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Sorry, did I say...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16131             MS MICALLEF:  That's fine.  Yeah, and 89.5 is what we are proposing to offer to the CBC and I will ask Tony Gardner our consulting engineer to explain the nature of the impairment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16132             MR. GARDNER:  Thanks.  I have done a partial design on this accommodation, I have not got to the point of completing a brief, however, the current transmission characteristics of CJSU Duncan are such that the interference would probably be objectionable and unacceptable to both parties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16133             But I did a re‑design on moving the antenna pattern for CJSU further south which would protect the CJS ‑‑ or the CBC Nanaimo station on the adjacent frequency and I'm confident that that solution will work, at the same time protecting adjacencies both in Bellingham and in the Vancouver area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16134             I have done ‑‑ we don't have copies of them I guess ‑‑ but I'd be happy to provide these, the realistic patterns of the two stations now and proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16135             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16136             MS MICALLEF:  In layman's terms, I would translate that to say that the signal would be impaired slightly in Ladysmith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16137             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  And would that affect you ‑‑ I think I know the answer to this, but would that impair you commercially in any way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16138             MR. STANSFIELD (ph):  No, it wouldn't.  We don't do any retail commercial business in Ladysmith, it's a ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16139             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Duncan and the Cowichan Valley is your main commercial corridor; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16140             MR. STANSFIELD (ph):  Absolutely, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16141             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16142             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This is quite new and we may have some more questions for you, and if we do we will come back at Phase IV to pose those questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16143             But just to make it clear in my mind, and I may not be using the right technical terms, but you are saying as in Pattison's case they're saying that they're willing to short space their own station, their own frequency for their own use of FM, thus leaving 104.1 free.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16144             By analogy, you are saying that you are willing to short space your own frequency that serves Duncan for CBC?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16145             MS MICALLEF:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16146             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  We will think about that one, but thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16147             MS MICALLEF:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16148             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16149             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16150             And now I would ask 6851916 Canada Inc. to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16151             Please introduce yourself and you have 10 minutes to make your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16152             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16153             Good morning.  I'm Roy Hennessy, the President and General Manager of Shore 104 and I'm joined by our legal counsel, Mark Lewis, our technical consultant.  Kerry Pelcher of DM Allen & Associates and our research consultant David Bray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16154             Before we begin our discussion to our intervention pertaining to the CBC's proposed use of 104.1, we'd like to comment on yesterday's release of the Broadcasting Directorate, the Emerging Canadian Artists on Commercial Radio, good timing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16155             The Commission's research report demonstrates the problem facing Canada's emerging talent.  The incumbent broadcasters' diminishing support for these artists is most evident and significant in the crucial peak listening periods.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16156             From the outset, Shore FM shaped its programming strategy with this problem in mind.  Our 15 per cent condition of licence on emerging artists' airplay not only covers our entire broadcast week, but also Monday to Friday between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.  This condition of licence is unique in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16157             Based upon our review of the Commission's Public Notice, we wish to reconfirm that the licence condition as proposed would be fully consistent with the Commission's policy initiative.  We look forward to the ongoing dialogue on this important subject.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16158             Now, Mr. Mark Lewis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16159             MR. LEWIS:  Now, with respect to the CBC, we had filed a written intervention on January 23rd which provides the Commission with details of our objection to the CBC's use of 104.1 on Gabriola Island to serve Nanaimo.  I don't propose to, in the limited time, repeat the entirety of that intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16160             In this proceeding each applicant has put forward their best proposal to serve residents of the Greater Vancouver area and provide greater exposure for Canadian music, particularly new and emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16161             Yesterday, however, I was shocked as were some others in attendance by the CBC's apparent lack of concern for the preferences of Vancouver radio listeners and the many musical artists who have taken part in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16162             Mr. Stursberg stated that there are, in his words, 30 radio stations in Vancouver and there is no need for "another music station for a market that is well served in terms of total radio stations".

LISTNUM 1 \l 16163             I was frankly surprised by this comment to so easily dismiss the preferences expressed by thousands of local radio listeners and Canadian performing artists who have written to the Commission in support of the various musical genres proposed by Shore and other applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16164             Unequivocally, the evidence shows the Vancouver audience feels they are not adequately being served by incumbent broadcasters, including CBC, relative to their programming tastes and it's not limited to just music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16165             Shore 104 and many other applicants have proposed extensive live programming.  In our case, 126 hours per week of live programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16166             We have proposed investment of over 300‑million in initiatives that will act as a stimulus for programming derived from local live performances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16167             Over seven years we have committed to invest $7‑million in new CCD initiatives, most of which will be spent in this region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16168             The CBC in its application to use 104 for Nanaimo has proposed no local live programming, at least not for now.  Approximately 28 hours a week of programming would be piped in, re‑broadcast from Victoria.  Investment in local talent in Nanaimo appears to be nil.  And CBC would only open a news bureau and would feed some content from Victoria ‑‑ or to Victoria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16169             Some day perhaps, if funds are ever made available, CBC might originate some undetermined amount of live local programming from Nanaimo.  No promises, no commitment, no conditions of licence, no money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16170             Madam Chair, as the CBC selectively quoted sections of the Broadcasting Act yesterday, it's our view that the CBC's applications do not, on balance, provide the same level of benefits to radio listeners or the Canadian broadcasting system in this region as does our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16171             You were told yesterday by CBC that 104.1 is "a very poor signal for Vancouver only covering half the market".  That's a gross distortion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16172             There is an area of possible interference, but I can tell you as the lawyer involved in the licensing of CKYE 93.1, directly involved in the negotiation of the tower rental and the construction of the station, that coverage from Mount Seymour is very good and that's the same tower where Shore FM would be located.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16173             Interference claims have been grossly exaggerated.  I was with the owner of CKYE on Sunday night, we drove through the zone of possible interference listening to CKYE, there was no perceptible interference.  We drove within six kilometres of the U.S. border.  There stereophonic reception was outstanding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16174             A high percentage of listeners tuning to CKYE 93.1 and a high percentage of their advertising revenue comes from this possible zone of interference that CBC dismisses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16175             Clearly, in private broadcasting listeners are likely more apt to tune to programming content that appeals to them regardless of the signal strength or potential for possible interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16176             You've heard a succession of applicants who are confident that the frequency will yield adequate service to attract a significant and loyal audience in the region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16177             This brings us to the matter of facts and research.  CBC Radio One Vancouver on AM currently is enjoying some of its strongest audience deliveries in years.  I refer to Table 1, demographics of CBU audience that we filed with the Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16178             In terms of its percentage share of hours tuned for all persons 12 plus, it ranks second in the market, trailing only to one other AM station, CKMW.  It's grown from a 6.3 share in the fall of 2003 to its current 8.4 per cent share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16179             There's no question that the content is geared to an older demographic, still the AM station does a better job of attracting younger listeners than does its FM counterpart.  16.5 per cent of CBU's audience is aged 12 to 34, while only 14.3 per cent of CBU FM's audience is 12 to 34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16180             The percentage of CBU's audience age 12 to 34 has grown from 15.9 per cent in the fall of 2002, to 16.5 per cent in S‑4 2007 BBM, that's the AM station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16181             From a research standpoint, the survey of 401 listeners who offered their impression of reception quality was deeply flawed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16182             Firstly, there was no way of knowing if an FM signal would have performed any better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16183             Secondly, radio signals of any type are impaired in the variety of areas such as underground malls, garages, basements, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16184             Lastly, extrapolating from this data and projecting that 850,000 can't properly receive the signal is highly questionable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16185             Current BBM numbers graphically demonstrate the station's signal strength by virtue of the fact the station is delivering outstanding, full coverage cume.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16186             Were the station to flip to FM, the full coverage reach of the station would be undoubtably negatively impacted.  AM is much better equipped to deal with the surrounding terrain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16187             Yesterday Commission Menzies asked CBC representatives for historical data to assist him in his understanding of the audience trends vis‑a‑vis an aging audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16188             We have provided to the Hearing Secretary BBM data which would lead the Commission to one very simple and inescapable conclusion: CBC Radio One is failing to reach younger audiences in every major market in Canada regardless whether it's technical facilities are on AM, FM, DAB, Sirius Satellite Radio or received via the Internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16189             On the chart listed as Table 2, CBC One AM/FM Audience Profile, on the left‑hand side we've provided audience statistics for CBU 690 AM Vancouver.  Across the chart those statistics are compared with CBC's Radio One FM stations in Toronto, Ottawa, Regina and Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16190             If you look at the 16 to 24 demographic, CBC Radio One on AM in Vancouver achieves precisely the same cume as Radio One FM stations in each of the cities where it operates Radio One on FM.  Radio One receives a three per cent cume.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16191             To be clear, that means in every city where it operates on FM with strong FM signals, 97 per cent of the audience 18 to 24 choose not to listen to CBC Radio One programming, 97 per cent of that younger demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16192             A review of the other younger demographics on that chart reveal similar tuning patterns between CBU AM and CBC's FM stations in other cities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16193             CBC was asked yesterday whether there were alternative frequencies which could be used to provide service.  CBC management professed they had no knowledge of alternatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16194             We find that rather strange.  Perhaps they haven't read the evaluation comments on the Broadcast application submitted by Industry Canada dated February 18th, 2008 which we found on the CBC's public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16195             With respect to the use of 98.7 on Gabriola Island, I quote from the second page of that letter in the fourth paragraph of that page.  The key sentence which is underlined by Industry Canada reads as follows:

"It should be noted that the Department also considers Channel 206 to be a viable channel for the CBC (although the CBC do not).  However, as 254 will not interfere with any existing service, whereas 206 would interfere with the existing CBUX from Victoria, 254 is considered the better choice."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 16196             MR. LEWIS:  Madam Chair, Industry Canada, just like the Commission, is grappling with the shortage of frequencies in this region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16197             You'll shortly hear from other interveners concerning possible technical alternatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16198             A combination of channel 206 and 98.7 could be used to provide service to both the Sunshine Coast and Nanaimo.  This region, of course, is already served by CBUF, the French service from Vancouver.  The number of people who would be actually affected by interference to CBUX would be minimal, possibly in the hundreds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16199             You may wish to determine the actual audience of CBUX because this audience data is suppressed by BBM because it's so low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16200             For your reference, CBU FM, the French service, 100,000 watts from Vancouver, has a coverage reach, full coverage of 18,100 in S‑4 of 2007.  That represents a 0.2 per cent share of audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16201             Yesterday you asked the CBC to provide data on audience tuning trends for Vancouver.  They didn't have the data on hand, but we do.  We've provided a chart for the years 1995 to 2007, that's Table 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16202             On the left‑hand columns CBU had 2,386,000 hours tuned in 1995 and that's to 690.  It's risen significantly over that period of time.  In 2007 tuning was 2.83‑million hours tuned.  That's not a decline on AM but an increase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16203             And if we bore down a bit more you'll see a spike after the terrorist attacks in 2001 when Radio One audience also spiked in Toronto for CBC Radio One on FM.  People in both cities were listening to news and information programs regardless of the mode of transmission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16204             One last comment pertains to the claim that the move from AM to FM in this region will draw in a younger audience, which CBC Radio One must have lest it will, in the applicant's word, die.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16205             CBC is proposing monophonic transmission of its Radio One service on each of its proposed three transmitters.  They want to repatriate a younger demographic who is used to listening to digital stereo music on iPods, the Internet and on stereophonic FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16206             Most commercial FM stations converted to stereo in the early 1960s.  Is it reasonable to believe that a monophonic FM signal is going to be more attractive to a younger audience who are listening to stereo audio on their iPods and other devices?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16207             In summation, the Broadcasting Act states:

"Programming provided by the CBC should be made available throughout Canada by the most appropriate and efficient means as resources become available for the purpose."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 16208             MR. LEWIS:  Members of the Commission, we respect the CBC's mandate to serve the public interest.  The service is available on 690.  However, we do not agree that this proposed use of 104.1 is in the public's best immediate interests, rather, it appears a frequency they wish to hold like money on deposit in escrow on the off chance that some time in the future they may change their programming strategy.  And that's not truly being sensitive to the public needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16209             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16210             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your very fulsome intervention.  The Panel doesn't have any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16211             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16212             MR. LEWIS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16213             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16214             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  And now I would ask ROCK 95 Broadcasting to come to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16215             MR. BINGLEY:  I feel kind of lonely up here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16216             Okay.  Well, Commissioners, I'd like to point out off the top that I'm a big fan of CBC.  They do a great job.  CBC News World is on in our house about two hours a day.  When I travel I listen to CBC Radio.  Heck, I even used to work for CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16217             But, despite all of this, even if I were not applying for a Vancouver licence, I would be opposed to this application and here's why.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16218             CBC has stated that 104.1 is the only frequency that they can use for Nanaimo.  That is incorrect.  Four AM frequencies are available.  Three are unused and, of course, should you licence 88.1 for Vancouver, CBC can re‑use their existing 690 kilohertz frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16219             CBC would likely argue that there are technical problems associated with using AM on the Island, ground conductivity, et cetera.  But given the service area that they are after, there can be no doubt that those problems can be overcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16220             I'm sure that the CRTC engineers and those of Industry Canada can verify this fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16221             All AM solutions would provide service to Nanaimo and central Vancouver.  All of CBC's objectives can be met on AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16222             And although they may cost more to implement, that's hardly justification to deny a new FM service to the 2.5‑million residents of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16223             You've no doubt noted that 20 per cent of the interventions by CBC listeners were in opposition to the CBC move to FM.  That's because many would lose service if CBC goes to an FM only solution.  An FM only solution is inappropriate for British Columbia.  FM does not work well in mountainous areas, AM is better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16224             There are many B.C. residents in remote areas who depend on AM 690 as their only radio service.  I met one individual on the Island who works in logging camps and 690 is all they can get.  Loggers depend upon 690 for weather forecasts and information.  This individual was appalled to hear that the service might be discontinued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16225             Numerous boaters have intervened to say that when at sea they're out of range of VHF marine weather forecasts.  CBC AM is their only source for weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16226             This is an essential service.  To take this service away from rural and marine listeners would be nothing short of disastrous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16227             CBC should retain use of 690 to serve Nanaimo.  They could do this in two ways, either utilize the present site, changing the pattern to beam a signal towards Nanaimo, or move the transmitter to Vancouver Island.  Using either method, they could provide the local service to Nanaimo, maintain regional coverage to marine and rural listeners and free up 104.1 for use in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16228             Now, while we're on that topic, let's look at the signal impairment of 104.1.  There is a theoretical zone of interference due to the U.S. station which is first adjacent on the frequency.  So, before I even applied for this licence, I rented a car and drove around to see if I could test that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16229             You see, here in Vancouver as the other applicant mentioned, there's RED FM which operates at 93.1 on the dial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16230             Right beside them is a U.S. station.  That station is on the same tower with the same parameters as the station that's adjacent to 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16231             What that means is, it's a great way to check it out.  If it works on 93.1, it will work on 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16232             So, I drove around and checked the signal with the car and the signal was great, right up to the U.S. border.  I then took a table radio, a small portable radio to simulate reception on inexpensive receivers and checked it out again and, in most areas, again, the signal was great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16233             So, the impairment area isn't 40 per cent, it might affect at most 10 per cent of the receivers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16234             To confirm this, we spoke with the GM and station engineer of 93.1 RED FM.  Both confirmed that interference is minor and does not affect their marketing plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16235             Now, even if we get on the air and find that the interference is worse than predicted, the obvious solution is to adjust the pattern of the interfering U.S. signal to reduce power in our direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16236             So, we checked with the U.S. company and they indicated that this type of negotiation is possible, although obviously there would be a lot of engineering work and a lot of negotiating before they were able to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16237             Now, let's talk a moment about the decline in AM tuning.  That decline is simply due to the fact that the most popular music formats have moved to FM, but that doesn't mean that AM is dying.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16238             And, as you've mentioned yesterday, if you look across the country, AM stations are No. 1 and here in Vancouver they're No. 1 and No. 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16239             The statement that 40 per cent of listeners never tune to AM means nothing.  85 per cent of Canadians never listen to Radio One.  That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the service, it just reflects their listening preferences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16240             Now to age of listeners.  The fact is that talk‑based formats, by their nature, appeal to older listeners.  The CBC has always appealed to older listeners and at the moment they're benefitting from the Baby Boom generation.  As that demographic bulge moves into their zone, they're actually gaining listeners and that's going to make their percentage of listeners as an older percentage much higher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16241             Now, back to Nanaimo.  CBC's application shows a population within their principal marketing area of 89,000 persons.  Based upon an average reach for Radio One across the country, the CBC proposal would be tuned to by approximately 13,000 listeners.  A hundred per cent of those listeners could be served on AM.  And CBC's filing shows that Nanaimo will also receive excellent service from 88.1, if it's approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16242             Their predict engineering study clearly shows this and, as CBC's engineers mentioned yesterday, FM signals will boom across the signal into Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16243             So, listeners in Nanaimo would receive an AM service and an FM service of which 75 per cent is duplicated.  That's two frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16244             And, of course, Gabriola Island is only a few miles from Nanaimo and many FM receivers will receive great service from the back lobe of that signal.  That's three frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16245             And contrary to CBC's assertions, many residents of Nanaimo already do listen to CBC Victoria on FM.  So, that's a fourth signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16246             Residents to the north also receive service out of Comox.  That's a fifth signal.  Pretty good service, I'd say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16247             Listeners are going to tune to CBC, they'll find them five spots on the dial.  I think they're going to think their radios are broken.  It's just going to be amazing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16248             But outside of Vancouver, in rural areas, many listeners will lose service completely if AM service is discontinued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16249             Commissioners, I know that later today you will hear from many well‑intentioned passionate CBC listeners who want a better signal.  I would suggest that for every one you see who asks for the FM service, there's another one who will lose service if CBC abandons AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16250             So, here's the obvious solution.  Approve 88.1 for Vancouver, recycle 690 for Nanaimo.  The re‑use of 690 will maintain a vital service to listeners in remote areas as well as those at sea.  It will make 104.1 available for use for another station, a station that will benefit Vancouver and Nanaimo residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16251             And one final thought.  Yesterday, Mr. Stursberg said all Canadians pay for CBC, all should have access to the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16252             Well, I want to quote from one intervention, intervention No. 856.  Two CBC listeners, Ray and Dorothy (10:45‑9:40)Pilman intervened against the CBC's plans.  They can't get proper FM reception in their home.  A move to FM and discontinuance of AM would deny them service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16253             So, here's how they closed their letter:

"Please don't allow the CBC to take this away from us."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 16254             MR. BINGLEY:  So, an open question to the CBC:  Given your present plans, how do you answer Mr. and Mrs. (10:45‑10:02) Pilman?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16255             That concludes our presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Bingley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16257             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I'm just curious how you would address the CBC's contention that its aging audience, as it declines, as the size of that audience just gets older and dies, more or less, that CBC is at risk of just getting older and dying?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16258             In terms of that, I mean, obviously 40 years ago 42 per cent of Canadians were under 20 and now it's 24, so that movement has already gone through, but how would you address that argument that they made?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16259             MR. BINGLEY:  Well, Commissioner Menzies, that's a reality for every radio station, listeners get old and listeners pass on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16260             In the sake of the CBC, this is really a marketing issue and a programming issue, it's not a technical issue.  Marketing issues can be resolved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16261             CBC's mentioning some markets, for example, that after they move to FM tuning went up.  Well, that was accompanied by a massive marketing campaign to identify their new frequency.  So, that makes tuning go up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16262             If CBC wants younger listeners, they have to make it relevant to younger listeners, and I know they're assessing that Radio Two, for example.  If you take a look at Radio One and Radio Two, the duplication of audience is like 80, 90 per cent.  So, there's an opportunity there, for example, for them to change their programming strategy and make it more accessible to more Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16263             They could do more with a programming strategy, I would submit, than with technical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16264             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16265             MR. BINGLEY:  You're welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16266             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Bingley, I just wanted to confirm the very last part of your intervention and your suggestion is that CBC retain 690 AM, plus 88.1 FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16267             MR. BINGLEY:  Yes, Commissioner ‑‑ Madam Chair, I would say that if they retain 690, they could move it, put the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16268             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16269             MR. HOOVER:  ‑‑ put the Island‑based service on 690, they'd have 88.1, they'd need the Gabriola Island to augment Radio One if they wanted the Sunshine Coast to receive the Vancouver service.  But, of course, the Sunshine Coast could also receive the Island service and that's an added benefit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16270             The Island could be received all over the place, so, people from the Island travelling to the mainland could be driving around Vancouver here and get their own Island service.  It's a very superior solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16271             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have any comments specifically on 98.7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16272             MR. BINGLEY:  That's the Gabriola?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16273             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16274             MR. BINGLEY:  Well, yeah, I believe it's going to work into the Sunshine Coast.  The reality is, I mean, you know, this is British Columbia and the topography is such, you have the valleys and the hills and it's not going to do it just by itself, the AM will augment it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16275             And I was talking to one fellow here and he said it's great they're moving to FM, but I travel a lot, so it means I've got a lousy signal wherever I travel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16276             AM really is superior and that will help on the Sunshine Coast as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16277             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Bingley, for your intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16278             MR. BINGLEY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16279             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask In House Communications to come to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16280             MR. LOUGH:  Madam Chair, Commissioners, Pat Lough with In‑House Communications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16281             Honestly I don't know if there's anything I can add to what's been said.  I'm impressed with the comments that have been raised.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16282             I don't often put myself in a position where I will, you know, intervene on another broadcaster's application, it's just not something I normally do, unless it impacts ‑‑ unless it impacts me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16283             Yesterday the CBC indicated that 104.1 really was not a good signal for Vancouver and I too drove last night, made it down to White Rock and area and the comparison to 93.1, which is what the comparison is, same antenna, the 93.1 is 4.2 kilowatts, our proposed use of that frequency is 4.1 kilowatts.  Very, very similar coverage.  It's a good signal, I think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16284             I don't believe the claims that 104.1 is not a good frequency for Vancouver, because I think it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16285             And, yes, both stations have a high‑powered first channel adjacency originating out of the U.S.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16286             As I was comparing between the staticky 106 signal and the Red FM signal, definitely Red FM has a far superior signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16287             Currently CBC is in control of 22 frequencies in this region.  That is a lot of frequencies.  That includes both Vancouver and Vancouver Island, the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16288             I believe a lot of those frequencies were added when the spectrum really wasn't an issue.  As things have developed and broadcasters have come in and proposed new applications, the management has become quite difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16289             I would like to note that CBC's Class C stations are not operating at maximum parameters, as per BPR 3 rules.  There may be a technical reason, but just on paper, 6.7 kilowatts for a maximum parameter of 100,000 kilowatts ‑‑ I struggle with that, especially with the use of 22 frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16290             Currently there is no requirement for a broadcaster to reuse frequencies.  I believe the CBC should have to short‑space itself, as previously indicated, and reuse some frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16291             I think they can move some frequencies around.  Obviously that would require Industry Canada and your approval, but I think there may be frequencies that they utilize in, I will say, Tofino, that could be possibly brought into the Nanaimo area, and then backfill Tofino with something that would be less of an impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16292             Industry Canada's BPR 3 rules indicate that interference over a body of water is acceptable.  I guess that goes along with the short‑spacing idea that CBC, I think, should have to look at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16293             I think that is all I am going to mention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16294             CBC also noted that on August 31st, 2011, CHEC‑TV 6 will be on a digital platform.  There will probably be opportunities there for more FM frequencies at that point.  I am just speculating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16295             If CBC does not get another FM frequency today, I think, in a few years, there potentially could be more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16296             I think that is all I am going to say.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16297             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Lough, for your intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16298             It is true that Phase II is usually very short, but I think people always have passions when it comes to the CBC, so we fully expected interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16299             Thank you for your participation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16300             MR. LOUGH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16301             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Coast 104.1 FM to come to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16302             MR. KIRK:  Good morning.  It is still morning on the coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16303             I am Doug Kirk, Chairman of Coast 104.1 FM, and I have brought Steve Kassay here to supplement this presentation with a few pictures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16304             We are appearing to oppose the CBC in its applications 2007‑1423‑9, regarding Vancouver and Gabriola Island, and 2007‑0363‑8, regarding Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16305             We attended the CBC's presentation yesterday to convert CBU from AM to FM by implementing three FM transmitters.  One in particular, the Nanaimo proposal, is competitive with several applications filed by private broadcasters to serve the substantially larger Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16306             During the discussion to implement the FM service, many statements and assertions were made by the CBC regarding the technical aspects of the FM Band, which we feel require clarification to be fully understood by all concerned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16307             Therefore, we are offering the following comments, hopeful that we have found some solutions for the parties ‑‑ the CBC, private broadcast applications, and the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16308             We want to address four items in this presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16309             The first relates to the actual coverage of the 104.1 frequency in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16310             The second is to discuss alternate FM frequencies to achieve the CBC's coverage objectives for Vancouver and Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16311             The third is the use of a synchronous repeater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16312             Does everybody know what a synchronous repeater is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16313             And, finally, your mandate to allocate FM spectrum for its best use.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16314             Starting with No. 1, the actual coverage of 104.1 in Vancouver:  CBC Executive Vice‑President Mr. Stursberg yesterday stated that 104.1 MHz is a good frequency for Nanaimo and a bad frequency for Vancouver, as it only covers half of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16315             In our view, and in the view of our consulting engineer, that is not correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16316             Our engineer, Mr. Jim Moltner, has opined as follows:

"The optimum drop‑in frequency to serve Vancouver is 104.1 MHz, Channel 281.  This frequency, nonetheless, suffers a large theoretical interference zone from first adjacent U.S. operation.  Experience based on the recent implementations of CKYE‑FM..."

‑‑ that is Red 93.1:

"...and CKAV‑FM 2..."

‑‑ that is the Aboriginal Voices service on 106.3:

"...both of those suffer identical theoretical interference, and the experience indicates that the interference coverage is better than predicted."

LISTNUM 1 \l 16317             That is the professional opinion of a consulting engineer, and I think that has been supplemented with the comments that Mr. Bingley made a few minutes ago, and Mr. Lewis' comments that, in fact, the coverage of both CKYE and CKAV, which have these identical theoretical interference zones, are much, much better in practice than appears on the technical projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16318             To be clear, these two signals transmit from exactly the same tower and will have exactly the same power.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16319             In our application, we used with confidence the 3 millivolt projection of the signals, and we are confident that 104.1 can achieve excellent coverage of over 2.1 million people in the Vancouver area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16320             Secondly, alternate FM frequencies:  Included in our submission is a report by our consulting engineer, Mr. Jim Moltner, which evaluates several alternatives to the CBC without using the 104.1 frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16321             On the screen is the CBC's own realistic projections for 88.1, and the dark green area is the high‑strength signal.  As you can see, it provides terrific coverage throughout Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16322             If you look even to the Nanaimo area, where its actual coverage ‑‑ although better than predicted, but its actual coverage ‑‑ 88.1 delivers a 3 millivolt or better signal to Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16323             You can also see there that terrain shielding limits the coverage to the Sunshine Coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16324             As others have mentioned, 98.7 can be used in Nanaimo, and used to distinctively serve Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16325             Without going on and on, another channel, 89.1, Channel 206, could also be used to cover the Sunshine Coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16326             So there are lots of alternatives ‑‑ and this is to counter Mr. Stursberg's stance that no other solution is available to serve Nanaimo than 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16327             I think it also responds to Commissioner Williams' question, "Are there other frequencies to serve Nanaimo," to which, I believe, Mr. Carnovale said "None", and we say, with confidence, that there are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16328             One other solution that may provide yet another option is to use a synchronous repeater on 88.1, in that terrain shielded area that was up on the previous slide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16329             88.1 could be used to cover the Sunshine Coast as well as Vancouver, because, basically, the two signals are separated by the terrain of the area and won't have significant interference from each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16330             It is a very efficient technical solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16331             Finally, the best use of the spectrum:  The Commission is charged ‑‑ and I guess this may be an unenviable task for you this week, because a lot of people have been asking ‑‑ with choosing the best use of the Canadian broadcast spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16332             The use of 104.1 in Vancouver by a private broadcaster, in our view, would provide a dependable service for over 2.1 million people.  This would make possible the realization of the substantial benefits associated with virtually every applicant's proposal before you this week, and we think the use of it by a private broadcaster is much superior than using it in the Nanaimo area to serve, at a maximum, 89,000 people, with a service that is about three‑quarters duplicated, and the Victoria service could be put in there by other means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16333             We hope these suggestions clarify and add some additional information for you on solutions.  I think, at the end of the day, clearly, there are other alternative options available to the CBC, including 88.1, 98.7, and 89.1 for use in Nanaimo.  If, in fact, it is viewed that the AM service has to go, there are other FM alternatives without depriving Vancouver of a very important and valuable channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16334             We have a moment if you have questions of us.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16335             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Kirk, for the time you took to intervene.  We have no questions at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16336             MR. KIRK:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16337             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to come to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16338             You have 10 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16339             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16340             MR. CARNOVALE:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff.  My name is Ray Carnovale, and I am Vice‑President and Chief Technology Officer for CBC Radio Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16341             With me today is Martin Levert, Engineering Strategy and Planning, with my group, and Rob Scarth, CBC's Director of Regulatory Affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16342             We are here to voice our opposition to the proposed use of Frequency 89.3 MHz, Channel 207, in Vancouver, by Mr. Frank Torres.  We do not contest or comment on the merits of the application that has been filed by Mr. Torres, only the proposed technical parameters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16343             The issue at stake is about ensuring that the people of British Columbia continue to be able to receive the service of Espace musique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16344             In Decision 2002‑02, the CRTC expected La chaîne culturelle, now Espace musique, to extend its service coverage to at least 50 percent of the French‑speaking population of each province by the end of the licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16345             Following this decision, we applied for licences in Vancouver and Victoria.  The licences were awarded, and we have met and exceeded the expectation.  Espace musique now covers 66 percent of the total population of British Columbia, and 62 percent of the francophone population of this province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16346             In that same decision, the Commission stated:

"For many Canadians, CBC French‑language radio is a highly prized component of the public broadcaster's service, one that must be preserved at all costs and continually improved.  It creates a space for French‑language expression within Canada's radio landscape."

LISTNUM 1 \l 16347             We completely agree.  Once implemented, our goal is always to maintain a standard of reception quality and to protect and enhance that reception quality, wherever necessary and wherever possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16348             The application before the Commission for the use of 89.3 MHz, Channel 207, in Vancouver, will cause interference in the reception area of Espace musique's Victoria transmitter, both on the mainland and on the island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16349             The proposed technical parameters for this application are based on the assumption that the zones of interference created through the reception of the Victoria Espace musique service, CBUX‑FM 1, are mitigated by the coverage overlap from our Vancouver

Espace musique service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16350             That assumption is wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16351             In the past, CBC, as an incumbent broadcaster, has often agreed with the argument set forth by some applicants that an interference zone created through a specific coverage of one of its radio services can be covered off by another one carrying the same service, because the overall network coverage of the radio service in question remains the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16352             That is not the case here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16353             There are situations where the overlap and coverage is necessary to overcome coverage deficiencies within a protected contour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16354             In such situations, while a map will show overlap, the story in the field is different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16355             We have such a situation here between the coverage of our two Espace musique transmitters in Vancouver and Victoria.  We know this from all of the field surveys we have had to carry out in the area over the past six years or so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16356             The overlap in coverage from Vancouver and Victoria are complementary in several scattered locations over the island of Vancouver and over the mainland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16357             Adding the presence of a second adjacent frequency into the mix, in a fashion that does not meet the protection requirements, will result in the loss of the Espace musique service for some residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16358             There is no spectrum optimization if, in the end, there is a loss of coverage and the listeners are disenfranchised.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16359             By licensing the use of Frequency 89.3 MHz, Channel 207, in Vancouver, the CRTC will create a permanent interference problem for Espace musique that can never be reversed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16360             To be fair to Mr. Torres, we recognize that, through Mr. Torres' consultant, great efforts have been made to minimize the damage to our coverage.  Unfortunately, we feel that minimizing the damage is not good enough.  There should be no damage at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16361             The Commission has to decide whether or not to grant the authority to use this frequency in Vancouver.  If it does so on the basis of the parameters proposed, then our Espace musique service will be impacted, and the quality of reception reduced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16362             If it does so on the basis of parameters that we would find acceptable, then the frequency probably would not be practical for the service proposed by Mr. Torres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16363             We appreciate your attention and would be pleased to answer any questions you have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16364             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your very clear position on 89.3.  We received a lot of information, obviously, during this phase on your proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16365             We thank you for your intervention in this instance, and your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16366             MR. CARNOVALE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16367             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  This completes Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16368             We will now proceed to Phase III, in which intervenors appear ‑‑ and the order is set out in the agenda ‑‑ to present their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16369             For the record, intervenors South Asian Broadcasting, George Szanto, Ryan Donn, David Hoerl, and Gabriel Mark Hasselbach have informed us that they will not be appearing at the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16370             I would now call Michael Norman, Andrea Reimer, Alice Wong and Elaine Bomberry to appear as a panel and present their intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16371             We will start with the presentation of Elaine Bomberry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16372             You have 10 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16373             THE SECRETARY:  Ms Bomberry isn't in the room at the moment, so we will proceed with Andrea Reimer.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16374             THE SECRETARY:  Alice Wong?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16375             THE SECRETARY:  Michael Norman.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16376             MR. NORMAN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16377             Good morning to the Commission.  It is my pleasure to be here today in support of The Planet, 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16378             I am a musician here in Vancouver, and with me today are a number of local musicians.  I will introduce them in a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16379             We come from a variety of musical styles, but what brings us together here is to tell you that we want and need The Planet, 104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16380             I am a session musician and music producer, meaning that I play with lots of other bands and musicians in a variety of styles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16381             I am a guitarist, keyboardist, saxophonist and bass player, and I have played in numerous styles of music, including rock, blues, jazz, country, and even with world beat musicians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16382             Sitting next to me, in the grey shirt, is my friend Curtis Blaine.  Curtis is a country, folk and pop artist here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16383             Sitting beside me is Shalina Kumar.  She is a wonderful pianist, who writes her own music in a unique style that blends pop, rock, blues and world beat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16384             Beside us here are Vasou and Govinda Clayton, The Ghost Brothers, who play ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16385             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me, Mr. Norman, I am sorry to interrupt.  For our stenographer, perhaps you could spell the names, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16386             MR. NORMAN:  Of course.  Shalina Kumar, her name is spelled S‑H‑A‑L‑I‑N‑A, and the last name is K‑U‑M‑A‑R.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16387             For The Ghost Brothers, Vasou is V‑A‑S‑O‑U, and Govinda is G‑O‑V‑I‑N‑D‑A, and their last name is Clayton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16388             The Ghost Brothers play a mix of reggae and other world beat music, a very unique blend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16389             There is an incredible diversity of music being made in this city.  Every night, in all parts of the city, there are blues players, world beat musicians, fusion artists, singer‑songwriters, and alternative pop and rock artists performing to a wide range of audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16390             The Vancouver Folk Festival and the Burnaby Blues and Roots Festival draw huge crowds to hear both local players and the best from the rest of Canada and around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16391             A look at the lineups of the two festivals demonstrates how diverse the tastes of Vancouver and the surrounding community music fans are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16392             At the 2006 Folk Festival, artists like James Keelaghan and the New Lost City Ramblers performed beside blues artists Indudi(ph) Unaquilloo(ph), featured Madagascar Slim, world beat artists such as Mighty Popo and Uranana(ph) Whabitatana(ph), and alternative soft artists, such as Jane Siberry and Feist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16393             The festival attracted 30,000 people over three days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16394             Last August 10th, the Burnaby Blues and Roots Festival featured blues artists like Koko Taylor, James Cotton, The Mud Bay Blues Band, and they played alongside Cajun artists such as Beaujolais, soul singers like James Hunter, Otis Clay, and gospel artists, as well as bands like Los Lonely Boys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16395             This eclectic mix is found very much on this panel, and I would like to introduce Curtis Blaine to speak more about this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16396             MR. BLAINE:  Thanks, Mike.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16397             I am an independent recording artist.  I moved to Vancouver from Alberta about 20 years ago.  I have had a number of my videos aired on CMT, and have played in a variety of venues around town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16398             I have also had radio airplay in the past, but it has not been enough to reach as many fans as I would like, which is why I am here supporting The Planet, 104.1, today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16399             The commitment to artist development that The Planet is promising would have an outstanding impact on artists like myself, my friends, and others here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16400             I also know Suki Badh on a personal level, and I am very proud of his many contributions to our community, including his many chair positions, coaching soccer, to simply cheering on his nephew in a hockey team which my son is also a part of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16401             He is a strong role model and has welcomed me and my family into his home on numerous occasions, and I support his application wholeheartedly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16402             Shalina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16403             MS KUMAR:  Thank you very much, Curtis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16404             My name is Shalina Kumar, and I am a singer‑songwriter and pianist from Vancouver.  I feel that The Planet, 104.1 FM, would be an absolutely wonderful way to showcase my talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16405             My album is coming out in August 2008, and I think it would be an absolutely wonderful venue, especially because they support us so much financially, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16406             I have a Fijian‑Indian background, so I speak Fiji and Hindi, and my musical style includes blues, world beat, and the Indian style of music.  So it is a mix and it is a fusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16407             I feel that all of the radio stations right now, locally ‑‑ it is kind of hard to get that kind of music played on the radio.  It's a bit difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16408             As well, I have recorded a number of my compositions, which are ready to go and be played on the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16409             My friends, and those I play music with, come from a wide range of backgrounds, including East and South Asian, as well as those born in Vancouver from western backgrounds.  We listen to pop, rock, blues, and many other styles of music, including those that come from our own ethnic heritage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16410             I think that a new radio station that blends rock and contemporary and blues and world ‑‑ I think that would be a phenomenal way to express what Vancouver has to offer in terms of artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16411             All right.  Next to Mr. Clayton...

LISTNUM 1 \l 16412             MR. CLAYTON:  Thank you very much, Shalina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16413             Good morning to the CRTC, and thank you very much for this opportunity to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16414             I am here today with my brother Govinda.  Together we are The Ghost Brothers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16415             We have the same kind of eclectic background as Shalina, born of a Black father and an Italian mother.  We have lived many places throughout the world, including India for a few years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16416             We have been in Vancouver for a number of years, and the city has shown its diversity, and we feel like we have added to it by being here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16417             My brother plays guitar.  I play flute.  Our music is a mixture of reggae, rock and world beat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16418             Our career has just recently taken quite an upturn.  A highlight for us was that we recently sang the National Anthem at a Canucks‑Oilers game under two weeks ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16419             We are also, currently, working on our first CD release through a deal with Hipposonic Records, which is a local record company that has just begun with Hipposonic Studio and Mushroom Studio, a well‑known studio in town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16420             You probably saw a bit of us on the DVD that The Planet played when they presented their application the other day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16421             One problem for us is that we have found that we don't fit any station format in Vancouver.  We are not classic rock, mainstream, smooth jazz, AC, or any of the other pigeon holes that the current commercial radio choices operate in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16422             A station that mixes alternative adult rock with folk, blues, reggae, and a fusion of the music we play, and that Shalina plays, and that many of our fellow musicians play nowadays ‑‑ it is a very mixed genre.  It takes a bit of everything and individuals apply it in their own artistic format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16423             We feel that The Planet will thoroughly support a diverse style of music, and us, and our intentions of being on the radio and being heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16424             We know many musicians in this city, and there are many different styles out there, and there are a lot of people just like us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16425             We like what we have heard, but we don't like to be fed a diet of only blues, or world beat, or alternative rock, or classic rock.  With the wide menu available to us here, we should not be limited in the choices of what we can hear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16426             We need airplay support, we need on‑air promotion, as well as financial support, and we feel that The Planet will provide them all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16427             All of us in this group support the idea of a new and diverse radio station like The Planet 100 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16428             Thank you so much for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16429             MR. NORMAN:  Just to summarize, one of the greatest things about Vancouver is that it is just a melting pot.  It is diverse in its ethnicity, in all the peoples who live here, and I think that The Planet, 104.1, would be a wonderful reflection of that diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16430             We appreciate your time.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16431             MS BOMBERRY:  Good morning, Madam Chair of the CRTC.  My name is Elaine Bomberry.  On behalf of The Planet's intervenors, I want to say that we are honoured to be presenting here today on the traditional territories of the Squamish, Musqueam and Tsleil‑Waututh First Nations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16432             I am Ojibway Kiuga(ph) from Six Nations on the Grand River Territory in southern Ontario, but I have been living on the Capilano Reserve at the Squamish Nation for the past two years, and I am quite honoured to be living on their territory.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16433             Originally I was going to appear here today with my partner, veteran blues man Murray Porter, but he got a gig in Ontario, so he is at the airport going back east.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16434             I would like to tell you a bit about both myself and Murray, and why we support The Planet's application for a new FM station here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16435             I have been active behind the scenes in Aboriginal performing arts and media for 20 years of glorious poverty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16436             I started with CKRZ‑FM at the Six Nations First Nations community in southwestern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16437             I was on the founding board and a producer/host of my own radio show for eight years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16438             Later, I was involved with JUMP‑FM in Toronto.  JUMP‑FM was a radio station that just ran for four days in 2002, during the Aboriginal Voices Festival.  We broadcast from the downtown festival with live concerts, interviews of performers, artists and participants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16439             The radio station created quite a buzz, both in our own community and in the larger community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16440             Subsequently, I became the first Canadian Content Talent Development Coordinator for Aboriginal Voices Radio Network.  With a little budget, I was still able to make a good deal of headway, initiating the Aboriginal Voices Concert Series, with a showcase in the City of Toronto for Aboriginal Day, right at City Hall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16441             I am also an avid music fan.  In fact, in 1994 I worked with the Canadian Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences ‑‑ CARAS ‑‑ to develop the Aboriginal music category with Buffy Sainte‑Marie and Curtis Johnnie.  And I was the first Aboriginal person on the Board of CARAS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16442             I have a particular love for the blues, from my own taste, and partly through my association with Murray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16443             Murray Porter is a veteran blues performer.  In fact, he has been playing the blues for almost 30 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16444             In 2003, he was a nominee for the Juno Award for Aboriginal Recording of the Year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16445             This past September he opened a concert for blues legends Etta James and BB King.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16446             Both of us are active in the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network in a program called "Res Blues", which showcases Aboriginal blues musicians and comedians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16447             I am a producer/writer/host of Season 1 and Season 2, and Murray is also a co‑writer with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16448             Our second season starts on March 8th on APTN, and I hope you get a chance to check it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16449             Plug, plug ‑‑ we are very proud of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16450             We are here today because we really like the emphasis of the proposal by Suki Badh, Jim McLaughlin and Liz Janik.  There are a number of features that we like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16451             Both Murray and I love the blues, but find it difficult to find it in any amounts on radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16452             Not only will The Planet provide a weekly blues show, it will be with a 40 percent commitment to specialty music which they will provide throughout their schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16453             They have also committed to 40 percent Canadian content, both in popular music categories and in specialty music, and they will devote half of this to emerging artists.  This will mean real opportunities for emerging Canadian artists in all categories, in all parts of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16454             And there is the fact that they will provide a weekly program on Aboriginal music and events, hosted by Brian Wright‑McLeod, a veteran Aboriginal radio producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16455             Brian has a comprehensive knowledge of our music and will be a good bridge to introduce us to Aboriginal and other audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16456             The mix of Aboriginal music in the regular flow will give our artists an exposure to large mainstream audiences that doesn't exist now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16457             When Murray is heard as another artist beside blues players like BB King, adult rockers like Van Morrison, or folk icons like Bruce Cockburn, it gives his music a platform that helps people realize the quality of his music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16458             The Independent Music Awards also include an Aboriginal music category, with real cash, which is always really good for artists, which helps them survive on their music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16459             There will also be a compilation CD that will give them something to use as a calling card for booking agents, managers and record companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16460             I hope you grant the people of Vancouver the exciting new sound that The Planet will deliver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16461             Thank you, meegwich, nawey(ph).

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16462             THE SECRETARY:  Can you please state your name?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16463             MR. CHIU:  Kenny Chiu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16464             THE SECRETARY:  One second, please.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16465             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Chiu, I think we know each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16466             MR. CHIU:  Probably.  I have a horrible mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16467             Pardon me.  Probably.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16468             Through success, maybe?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16469             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  Are you not Kenny Kam Wing Chiu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16470             MR. CHIU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16471             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are second‑cousins.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16472             MR. CHIU:  Yes!

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16473             MR. CHIU:  You know, the last name doesn't ring a resemblance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16474             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know.  I'm sorry, I have to disclose this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16475             MR. CHIU:  That's probably why.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16476             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16477             MR. CHIU:  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16478             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can't hear you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16479             Our mothers are first‑cousins.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16480             We immigrated to Canada when we were quite young, and haven't really been ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16481             The last time I saw you and your wife was 10 years ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16482             MR. CHIU:  Ten or 12 years ago, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but I recognize you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16484             I'm sorry, I cannot hear you, but I will turn it over to legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16485             It's very good to see you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16486             MR. CHIU:  It's good to see you, too.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16487             MS PINSKY:  As I understand it, you were appearing to read on behalf of one of the intervenors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16488             MR. CHIU:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16489             MS PINSKY:  Perhaps we could just take the intervenor's statement, and then we will have it on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16490             MR. CHIU:  It is blended with my own comments, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16491             MS PINSKY:  We didn't have you on the list of appearing intervenors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16492             MR. CHIU:  I could just submit the statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16493             MS PINSKY:  I think it would be preferable if we could have Alice Wong, who was the intervenor identified in advance, and perhaps take Alice Wong's statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16494             If right now that isn't possible because her remarks are intertwined with your own, perhaps we could just have a separate statement made by Alice Wong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16495             MR. CHIU:  Okay.  To be submitted afterwards?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16496             MS PINSKY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16497             MR. CHIU:  Okay.  We can do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16498             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16499             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16500             Now we will hear the next intervenor, Andrea Reimer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16501             MS REIMER:  Good morning, Commissioners, and thank you for the opportunity to make the views of the Western Canada Wilderness Committee known to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16502             One of the best features of the CRTC and its process is the opportunity you give to people like us and all of the other intervenors to have some input into important decisions that affect all of our lives.  I wish that more of our public institutions, particularly those related to environmental policy, had the same sort of opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16503             I am Andrea Reimer, and I am here today as the Executive Director of the Western Canada Wilderness Committee to speak on behalf of our 32,000 members living in Canada, many of whom live right here in the Lower Mainland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16504             We were founded in 1980, and have offices in four provinces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16505             We are, as an organization, dedicated to saving wilderness and wildlife.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16506             In all of our work we are inspired and informed by the wild places that we seek to protect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16507             Our programs focus on five priority areas:  protecting Canada's wild lands; safeguarding Canada's endangered wildlife; defending Canada's public lands, such as parks; keeping the Pacific Coast wild; and supporting healthy communities, which includes programs related to reducing toxic pollution and dealing with climate change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16508             Our mission includes informing Canadians on these key issues.  We believe that when Canadians are informed about the dangers to the environment, they will make better decisions that will lead policy‑makers, also, to make better decisions for our environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16509             The media, obviously, plays a very important role in our ability to spread this word, but, unfortunately, we have to put in a great deal of resources right now to receive media coverage on environmental issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16510             In particular, commercial radio in Vancouver, while they might have health, lifestyle, travel, business ‑‑ and there is a regular feature on our main radio station here about DVDs that you can watch ‑‑ there is no regular programming committed to providing opportunities for people working in scientific or environmental communities to be heard, yet public opinion polls show that concerns about the environment ring high in the consciousness of British Columbia residents, especially here in the Lower Mainland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16511             Too little information gets to them about what these issues are, and, perhaps most importantly, very little information gets to them about what they can do at a community level to deal with these issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16512             Without that kind of information, people end up feeling an overwhelming sense of powerlessness to make change in the face of what they are seeing as enormous problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16513             The Planet proposes a daily series of programs that will help address this lack, with information about the issues, with practical suggestions to effect change in things that each of us can do in our daily lives, as well as information on technologies and products that are an alternative to the more toxic choices that we all too often make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16514             We also think that the Annual Green and Music Fair that The Planet is proposing is a wonderful technique to marry entertainment and information in a way that is user friendly and allows people to participate in learning about the environment and making good choices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16515             Their proposals to lead by example by building the first green radio station in Canada, both in the use of the materials they will use in the building they are proposing and the choice of transportation for their station, can also provide leadership to their listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16516             It is not surprising to me that a station with Suki Badh as the controlling shareholder would make these kinds of commitments.  Mr. Badh has already shown an interesting commitment in this area.  For example, he sits on the Environmental Advisory Committee to the City of Richmond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16517             He is also comfortable in both the ethnic communities in Vancouver ‑‑ and I have to say, as someone who has worked for 16 years in the Lower Mainland to educate people about environmental issues, it is still very much a White, upper/middle‑class issue that needs to include more of the ethnic communities in our region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16518             Mr. Badh has a history of working in those communities, and in the larger community, bringing the message of environmental responsibility to both.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16519             I also know Mr. Badh's community involvement in a number of other areas, and The Planet, Vancouver, has committed dollars and resources to supporting Vancouver's arts and cultural community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16520             As the other members of this panel state and demonstrate in their musical styles, this is a very diverse city.  Aboriginal people, people from a variety of Asian countries, and other third language communities are leaders in our communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16521             It seems extremely appropriate to me that a mainstream English‑language radio station have the kind of local ownership that is sensitive to the multicultural communities in our region that Suki brings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16522             But I also realize that good intentions alone do not guarantee success.  I can speak from my own experience in running a non‑profit organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16523             Suki has recruited a group of professionals with strong experience in radio.  With this team in place, supported by the financial resources that he can bring to the project, we can expect The Planet to be a successful radio station, bringing together a diverse coalition of listeners that reflects our region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16524             For us at the Wilderness Committee, this is an excellent community to reach out to, and one that is among the most receptive to our message.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16525             Therefore, I urge you to license The Planet to serve Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16526             Thank you for your time today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16527             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16528             I will ask Commissioner Cugini to lead the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16529             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Whoever thought a CRTC hearing would be a forum for a family reunion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16530             Never let it be said that we don't provide some variety.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16531             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I have a couple of questions, primarily for the artists at the table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16532             You are the demographic group, you are the generation that supposedly doesn't listen to radio, that doesn't need radio to have access to music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16533             We consistently hear that five years ago there was one venue to get music, and now there are as many as 10 or 15, and it's growing every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16534             Why do you think The Planet is going to change that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16535             MR. NORMAN:  I think that radio is still a vibrant medium to be listening to music on and getting information.  I think it will be a long ways off ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16536             I can't really see a time when radio will not be around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16537             There is a diversity in this city, which is one of the things that makes it so great, and I love The Planet's agenda, in that they are not pigeonholing into one sort of particular style of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16538             And I think that the accessibility through radio, you know there are still lots of people who drive around in cars that don't have, you know, access to new technology.  I mean it's a foundation for the place to listen to, you know, different types of programming and it's always going to be ‑‑ it's always going to be there or will be there at least for several generations to come.  I think it's definitely an important platform to have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16539             So I hope that's answering your question.  I'm not ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16540             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I mean I'm really just ‑‑ it's not ‑‑ there is no right or wrong answer here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16541             This is really a discussion based on your experience as artists and, in particular, in this community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16542             You know, we have all heard the example of the Arctic Monkeys, right; their music.  They became known because of the internet.  They just won the Brit award for the second year in a row.  They didn't need radio to launch their career or they didn't ‑‑ not that they didn't need.  Sorry, I am going to rephrase that.  They didn't use radio to launch their career.  They used the new technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16543             So it really is a question of both access to music as well as your access to your audience and why do you think The Planet in particular is going to bring back that opportunity for you to listen to the music you want access to and to launch your careers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16544             MS KUMAR:  I would actually like to add to that, if you don't mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16545             I know that a lot of my friends when they talk to me, like they always want to know, "How do I find out about local artists?  Where do I go?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 16546             And I know a lot of the artists locally they don't have the money and everything to promote themselves as much.  And I think that a local station with, you know, local artists and have all their shows and every way to promote themselves to the various venues in Vancouver would be awesome.  And you know people would actually start coming to the shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16547             Because I know as an artist it's hard to promote yourself if you have a limited budget and I do know that there are like students at my school, local students who support their local radio stations at the colleges and the campuses and things.  So I think it would be a phenomenal idea personally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16548             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16549             MR. NORMAN:  And I think it's just another road to lead you to ‑‑ well, you know, there is other mediums to get your music out there but it definitely helps to have every advantage that you can.  Radio is another advantage and it always seems to be ‑‑ I don't know, for people of my generation it is the default place to go to, to look for music you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16550             MS KUMAR:  Definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16551             MR. NORMAN:  Anybody else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16552             MR. BLAINE:  I just feel it's the combination that they are providing with developing, supporting and promoting it all in one package.  I think that's very unique and that's what has got me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16553             MR. GOVINDA CLAYTON:  Sorry.  What you were asking about why our age group really doesn't listen to the radio, is I find if you were to turn on the radio last year and you were to flip through all the stations you would hear all the same songs almost that you are hearing this year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16554             And it's been kind of just a redundant and most people of my age group they just don't listen to the radio because it's just the same stuff.  There is nothing new.  If you listen to one station it's the same kind of music playing all day.  You end up with kind of a sore finger just flipping, trying to find something different.  Oh, this is nice, and then you have got to keep flipping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16555             So if there was a station that just got ‑‑ and if you talk to young people nowadays and you ask them, "What kind of music do you listen to?" there is not probably one person out there that's going to say, "I just listen to rock music; I just listen to hip hop music".

LISTNUM 1 \l 16556             People, the youth, there is just a wide range of sounds that they like to hear and with all the stations that are available for them to listen to it's either they are going to get a sore finger or they are just not going to listen to the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16557             So what The Planet wants to provide is a variety so people our age will start listening to radio again.  It's not like it's a lost hope.  It's just that there is nothing there for us to really want to listen to.  We have heard Led Zeppelin a lot.  I have all their CDs.  I don't really need to listen to them on the radio anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16558             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, thank you.  Oh, please go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16559             MS BOMBERRY:  Oh, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16560             I just also wanted to add aboriginal music is heard very few and far between on any kind of commercial radio in this country.  So the fact that The Planet is going to be incorporating aboriginal music, traditional and contemporary throughout the various formats ‑‑ because aboriginal music is going in every direction these days.  We have folk artists, we have pop artists; we have blues artists, traditional.