ARCHIVED - Transcript
This page has been archived on the Web
Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.
Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages
Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for licences to carry on radio programming
undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /
Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes
de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une
entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et
Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)
HELD AT: TENUE À:
The Empire Landmark The Empire Landmark
1400 Robson Street 1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 27, 2008 Le 27 février 2008
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Various broadcasting applications further to calls for
applications for licences to carry on radio programming
undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /
Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes
de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une
entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et
Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Helen del Val Chairperson / Présidente
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Elizabeth Duncan Commissioner / Conseillère
Peter Menzies Commissioner / Conseiller
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secretaire
Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Carolyn Pinsky Legal Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
HELD AT: TENUE À:
The Empire Landmark The Empire Landmark
1400 Robson Street 1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.)
February 27, 2008 Le 27 février 2008
- iv -
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I (Cont.)
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Nirenderjit Pataria (OBCI) 649 / 3299
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. 725 / 3822
902890 Alberta Ltd. 804 / 4274
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation 854 / 4669
Frank Torres (OBCI) 922 / 5142
Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, February 27, 2008
at 0838 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 27
février 2008 à 0838
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 32923292 THE SECRETARY: We will now begin the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13293 Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. As you know, today is anti‑bullying day and let the record show that Commissioners Menzies and Williams are actually wearing pink eye shadow. It's very subtle, but they're there.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13295 THE SECRETARY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13296 We will now proceed with Item 12, which is an Application by Nirenderjit Pataria on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13297 Please introduce yourself and your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13298 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 13299 MR. SUNNER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13300 Addressing the Commissions of the CRTC and the public here in attendance. Good day and thank you for the opportunity to participate in Canada's broadcasting public process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13301 We are very excited to propose a world urban dance music format called SKY 104 FM for Vancouver. My name is Michael Sunner and I am representing for Nirenderjit Pataria, Application for an FM radio licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13302 I have been involved in broadcasting, promoting the types of music proposed in this Application for almost 20 years on the radio and television in Vancouver. My extensive knowledge of the world‑wide music scene and my close association with Vancouver's urban world dance industry qualities me to act as Mrs. Pataria's agent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13303 First, I will introduce to the Commissions our SKY 104 FM team. On my right‑hand side, Jason Harmer, Canadian Content Development and Emergent Technology Director. At the far side, leaving the man out in the middle, is Idris Hudson, SKY's Promotion Executive, and just in between on the front row our beautiful Leanne Bitner, Music Director a.k.a. DJ Leanne, an award‑winning DJ.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13304 Next to me on my left‑hand side is David St. Helene, head of Sales and Marketing with knowledge and proven success in his field. Just next to Jay is SKY's sustainability advisor, a born environmentalist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13305 On my far left‑hand side is our music programmer, James Morris, with a passion to promote independent Canadian talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13306 On my far ‑‑ behind me on my far left‑hand side is SKY's Radio Treasurer, the Applicant's husband, a.k.a. DJ Goldy. Next to him is Kiara Hunter, A&R Director, actor, music artist and writer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13307 And right behind me, Jesse Norsworthy, SKY's Multi‑media Chief, producer of our demo that we are presenting later on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13308 To my left‑hand side just behind me is Jeff Young, SKY's legal advisor and to the far right‑hand side is Lance Souter, SKY street team leader.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13309 Sitting next to him is Navneet Dhillon, our A&R Director with international social craft, speaking five languages and our Asian music specialist, Phong Lee, with a true taste for the Asian underground sound.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13310 Our team is big. I'd just like to check if I've said and introduced everybody.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13311 I would like to start the presentation right now after the introduction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13312 As the Commission and Madam Chair can see, Mrs. Nirenderjit Pataria, the Applicant, is not present here today, she's currently in Asia for an important family wedding that was arranged two years ago. Mrs. Pataria is a successful Vancouver businesswoman and a native born true Canadian who is committed to supporting this venture and new Canadian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13313 I met Nirenderjit over 12 years ago while working with her now husband, Goldy Pataria, in the production of world urban and dance music on Vancouver's 96.1 FM. Since then I've continued on in my efforts to promote this music and in eight short years Mrs. Pataria has become the owner of a successful financially secure freight company, a true testament of her business skills.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13314 Today the Patarias' passion for music has evolved into this Application, an opportunity to participate in the Canadian broadcasting industry by proposing a format both near to our hearts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13315 Upon learning of a call for applications for this area, Nirenderjit approached me to lead her SKY 104 FM team, knowing my love for the world of arts, music and entertainment. Mrs. Pataria put up all the finances for her quest to be successful in her Application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13316 Since filing, we have obtained an additional $3‑million in financial backing ready to support this initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13317 The proposed music station will cover the spectrum of world urban and dance rhythms. SKY 104 FM will be a music orientated station with a truly independent attitude, featuring music that is exceedingly popular in the non‑broadcast music scene and which has little or non‑OMNI support or commercial support in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13318 At this time we would like to present to the Commissions and the public here in attendance a video presentation that tells the story of SKY 104 FM.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 13319 MR. SUNNER: Commissioners, as you can see, much care, time and passion has been put into SKY FM's application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13320 During our preparations for this hearing, and after we had submitted our original application, we were very pleasantly surprised to discover a very high level of support for this proposal in the heart of Vancouver. We discovered great support, not only from potential listeners, but from the advertising market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13321 As the Commissioners also know, at intervention time we submitted nearly $5 million worth of financial sponsorship letters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13322 Our commitment to the CCD goes beyond cash investments, and to discuss briefly some of our highlights in this area, I would like to call on Jay Harmer, our Canadian Content Development Director.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13323 MR. HARMER: Thank you, Michael.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13324 The music industry is intimidating and appears as a closed loop to emerging artists. Using technology and innovation, instead of financial clout, we will create self‑sustaining conduits of communication, distribution and exposure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13325 We commit six minutes per day of advertising time toward programs such as C.A.P.I., creating a potential of up to $100,000 of tour support per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13326 This program is designed for any media outlet to contribute to, and we hope it will create a network of national support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13327 We will submit 20 artist grant applications in our first year, and offer promotional support to management agencies in other cities in exchange for press and contact support for their locality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13328 SKY 104 FM will provide organizational and promotional support to product artist workshops at high schools, cultural and community centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13329 We commit two minutes of programs, such as "Urban Village," to assist schools and community groups to advertise their fundraising efforts, at no fee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13330 Our contributions for FACTOR, as well as the respective school boards and Music B.C., will provide a total of $150,000 over seven years. With our projected sales increase of over five times since our initial projections, automatically our CCD contribution will increase correspondingly, to $750,000 over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13331 Including our C.A.P.I. program, producing a minimum of $700,000 worth of support, this will provide nearly $1.5 million of support for Canadian artists over a seven‑year period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13332 In a landscape of new distribution technology, we no longer function as one in a series of middlemen. We are a vehicle to unite musician and music lover, so that they may come together as artist and fan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13333 More than just content delivery, we are a hub of communities and cultures, and with that comes a great responsibility to go above and beyond conventional practice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13334 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13335 MR. SUNNER: Thank you, Jay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13336 I will now ask Dom Repta, SKY 104 FM's Sustainability Director, for a few words on our Green Station Initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13337 MR. REPTA: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13338 SKY 104 FM will be setting a new standard in radio. We will be the first truly green commercial radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13339 Broadcasting in a new landscape, SKY 104 FM will broadcast with a whole new mindset, an environmentally responsible attitude toward our own operations, while reflecting the demand of Vancouverites as it relates to a green way of doing business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13340 In essence, the new business must not only behave in a responsible manner toward the environment, it must take part in conveying the message of sustainability.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13341 We have developed a comprehensive sustainability plan with the Green Community endorsement, and we understand our responsibility to implement this plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13342 We will be incorporating green messaging in our daily programs, such as "Climate Change Challenges and Opportunities," "The Importance of a Diverse Community," "Sustainable City Living," and our "Green DJ and Artist" program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13343 Our team has wholeheartedly embraced the culture of being a green radio station and will work beyond "reduce, reuse and recycle" ‑‑ we will be "re‑thinking".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13344 If our application is approved, sustainability will become an integrated part of Vancouver's airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13345 MR. SUNNER: Thank you, Dom.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13346 I would like to introduce DJ Leanne Bitner, our Music Director, who will say a few words about our programming and music variety.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13347 MS BITNER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13348 SKY 104 FM's format is completely unique and diverse, with 74 percent of its daily selection pertaining to urban and dance, and 26 percent to world music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13349 The world, urban and dance selections all share a common ground as electronic‑based music with an urban beat and feel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13350 With an aspiring young team of not only knowledgeable, but music‑involved individuals, SKY can explore the depth of these genres and fill the musical void in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13351 Staying cutting edge with exclusive tracks, re‑mixes of popular songs, international hits and less repetition, we will educate and introduce to listeners that new and innovative sound that will set us apart from the rest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13352 MR. SUNNER: Thank you, Leanne.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13353 Members of the Commission, Madam Chair, we are a passionate team of future broadcasters with fresh ideas and enthusiasm for this industry, backed by solid business skills, reliable legal and accounting professionals, and an ownership and management structure that will truly commit long‑term to the success of SKY 104 FM as an independent broadcasting service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13354 Nirenderjit Pataria has built a team dedicated to filling the demand that Vancouver has for fresh music, voices and broadcasting styles, bringing Vancouver's diverse urban audience together, uniting a public of all colours and nationalities. With an exciting world‑urban‑dance format, SKY 104 FM will support Canadian and independent artists 200 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13355 We now welcome the Commissioners to examine our application. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13356 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sunner, and your panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13357 I will ask Commissioner Cugini to lead the questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13358 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13359 Good morning and thank you for your very enthusiastic presentation this morning, not only through your actual oral presentation, but your video as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13360 Mr. Sunner, if they haven't given you a job to be an on‑air talent, I think they should.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13361 I have some questions for you regarding your format. You are right, it is new to the Vancouver market, based on what is currently available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13362 We know that this demographic, in particular, that you are targeting is getting its music from, maybe, 10 sources other than radio. What, in your plans, includes attracting these kids back to radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13363 How are you going to get them back to listening to radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13364 The kind of music that you are proposing, they are hearing it in the dance clubs, they are hearing it on their iPods, they are hearing it on the internet. What is going to make them listen to your radio station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13365 MR. SUNNER: I believe, myself, in the kind of music that we are committed to, through our team's efforts in the city over the last two decades.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13366 This team is an unusual broadcasting team that has been heavily involved in the underground music scene in Vancouver. Many of these DJs or broadcasters have built up much linkage internationally and in Canada, especially from the underground movements, and not many radio stations will be playing the kind of music that will be presented on SKY 104 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13367 Even looking to the internet, where kids are more geared up to listening and tuning, and not tuning into the commercial FM radio stations in the city, from the responses we have had from the public, the music on our playlist ‑‑ 75 percent of that independent sound has not hit Vancouver, or even Canada's market yet, we believe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13368 MR. YOUNG: If I may, I would add that, if you take a look at our presentation, you will see that we have already taken into account a lot of convergence of media and new media methodology, in terms of podcasts and things like that, which actually would drive traffic back to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13369 We are recognizing that the new ways of accessing music are a reality for younger people, but I think there is a way to take all of that via the internet, via podcasts, via those kinds of situations and drive that traffic back to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13370 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: We keep hearing that with this demographic group, in particular, radio, to them, is like black‑and‑white TV. They just have no legacy. They have no loyalty to the medium itself, and you are asking them to change their habits and to listen to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13371 MR. YOUNG: I think we are proposing to make it exciting, so they won't view it as black‑and‑white TV. I think that may be why our application is framed the way it is, to say: Can we, in fact, take what may be perceived that way and put some colour to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13372 I think that is what makes it new, unique, and something that our team is very excited about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13373 MR. SUNNER: I believe that James Morris would have a few words about the music and bringing the new audience, as you are saying, that demographic ‑‑ the kids are really tuning into that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13374 James Morris has been involved in the underground music scene here, and I think he has many ways of introducing Vancouver youth, especially through the schoolings and the DJ‑ing process of these army camps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13375 James, would you like to say a few words?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13376 MR. MORRIS: Yes, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13377 Not only is our team made up of all of these young individuals who are involved in the music industry, the mix shows ‑‑ and the way we are involved with the community, this is just another way of keeping in touch with youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13378 I am an artist, as well. I have been involved with the music industry for many years. There is one thing about being in clubs ‑‑ doing performances in clubs is one thing, but another thing is to reach those kids who are still in school.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13379 New generations just keep coming and coming, and as technology changes, you still have to ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13380 As a musician, it is hard to sell CDs. Now we are looking at MP3s and all of this new type of technology.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13381 So still trying to get the attention of the youth is very important, and these mixed shows, and these DJs that are still involved in the community as DJs in the clubs ‑‑ this is how we can attract them back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13382 If you listen to radio nowadays, there is not a lot of live mixing, live shows, and it's the characters and the on‑air personalities that are on these shows that are the ones the kids look up to, or respect, or follow in the communities. These are the people who are bringing them back ‑‑ or, in our case, we want to bring them back to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13383 And they will follow us because we are of that genre and we are in that community, in that age category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13384 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: It sounds to me like you are going to create an all‑ages dance club on the radio.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13385 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I am looking at your playlist. I am not the target demo, but I do recognize some of the names on the playlist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13386 Have you been able to do a comparative analysis in terms of what is duplicated in the market currently, both from an artist point of view and from the tracks?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13387 In other words, how much of your proposed music is currently being played in the market, both in terms of tracks and artists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13388 MR. SUNNER: James, would you like to answer that question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13389 MR. MORRIS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13390 Could you repeat the question one more time, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13391 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I am looking at artists like ‑‑ you have Holly Cole, Jacksoul, Rihanna, The Chemical Brothers, Massive Attack, Sean Paul ‑‑ those are just some examples of artists that are on your playlist, which I could see, also, probably, being played ‑‑ I am not from Vancouver, but some of the radio stations in Vancouver probably play these same artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13392 MR. MORRIS: The difference with us is ‑‑ as you can see, this is just a two‑day programming schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13393 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I realize it is a sample.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13394 MR. MORRIS: Our music range is thousands and thousands.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13395 And the type of music that we will be playing, it is not necessarily your top 20 or top 30 songs that you see on the charts that these radio stations select, because they are scared to try these other songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13396 But, say, an artist on a major scale, who is very popular, their music ‑‑ they might have a single that all of these billboard charts and all of these major radio stations are playing, but they are not playing other singles that the clubs are playing, or, say, "MuchVIBE" is playing, rather than "MuchMusic" or BET or MTV. These are the types of songs ‑‑ they are specialty songs or re‑mixes. They are songs like this that do not reach these airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13397 That is not to mention the Canadian artists and the independent artists. These are artists who don't have that platform where their music is being exposed. Let's say that they have 20,000 mixed tapes put out throughout the years and they have ‑‑ they have successful touring and all this other ‑‑ avenues that they are successful on, but radio was that one platform that they are not successful on yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13398 So they are popular, just not popular on the charts. So that kind of music is the music we will be bringing out, as well as the remixes of the popular or crossover hits, certain things like that. So you might see a song that might be on The Beat that might be with us but it will be remix if it's on our station or it could be that popular that we have to play it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13399 So if that answers your question right there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13400 MEMBER CUGINI: Yes, it does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13401 MR. SUNNER: Also, I would just like to add onto that, that world music has changed so much that when you look at Nelly Furtado or Sean Paul there is always a Bhangra mix coming out of Canada or the U.K. and that might be put on the album or on the vinyl itself but it never really receives any airplay on an FM radio station here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13402 And also the same goes for the Top 40 when it comes to a different kind of mixes, whether it's a popular song, an electronica version or a reggae version. Sometimes even in the retail outlets you can't really ‑‑ the public can't really go there to buy those records like in the big stores. And there is so many. There is hundreds and hundreds of vinyl stores in the city. The DJ pool in Vancouver is really, really hot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13403 We believe SKY FM will bring that sound to the public through radio airwaves because, really, I believe the public doesn't even know that these kinds of mixes are out there. And it really ‑‑ as a world beat kind of vibe that's where we bring it all together, right? That when the youth in this town will hear that Nelly Furtado's Bhangra mix or Sean Paul's electronica mix it sorts of brings the ravers, the urban and the new younger immigrants all together, you know, through music and SKY 104 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13404 This is unique. Sometimes it might be hard for me to actually explain. Hopefully, the video demo did answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13405 MEMBER CUGINI: The context in which we ask this question is truly one of truly trying to understand the format and how it will bring musical diversity to the market. And it's not just this market when we do this analysis. We do this across the country whenever we are hearing new radio applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13406 If we take the Nelly Furtado example, and she has got a Bhangra beat in her next track and that's going to be played on this radio station and won't necessarily be played on The Beat, but as a commercial FM radio licensee you are not tied to your format. And down the road after licensed, six months down the road, you may decide you know what, that Nelly Furtado Bhangra beat ‑‑ track ‑‑ doesn't work so well. We are going to go back and we are just going to play Nelly Furtado no matter what she puts out and, therefore, not being a new sound to the market because you are not tied to format. So we just want to make sure that what you are proposing will stay as true to the licence as you possibly can, recognizing that we do not licence formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13407 So it really is critical for us to understand what the differences are between what you are proposing and what is currently available in the market. So it's in that context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13408 MR. SUNNER: If I can just say this, our music director, Leanne Bitner, is award winning. We chose her because of her taste for the music of having an international sound that brings all mainstream and the underground together with a selection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13409 Leanne, would you like to say something?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13410 MS BITNER: Basically, because on a weekly basis there are thousands of people out there listening to say dance music, there are songs that are number one in the dance music community but nowhere heard on radio. So we want to break these tracks. We really want to be the innovators in the city, and there has been incredible response for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13411 So definitely we will be playing, you know ‑‑ yes, we may play some remixes of recognizable artists but we are breaking new artists and new DJs. That definitely is our mission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13412 MR. MORRIS: If I can add to that, like we were saying, the way we are going to be different is the fact that we are not going to be dabbling into picking the top songs in the world or urban. We are actually going into the depths of these genres and really playing world, urban and dance. We are not playing alternative crossover hits, stuff like that or you know the top pop song, top hip hop songs. We are digging deeper than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13413 If the Nelly Furtado Bhangra song does not work like you said, it doesn't stop there. There is tons of, you know, unheard popular songs from other artists that you or the public would not even hear of but you would hear in the clubs or on American stations or ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13414 MEMBER CUGINI: Are you saying I don't go to clubs? Just kidding.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13415 MR. MORRIS: Yes, so ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13416 MEMBER CUGINI: You are right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13417 MR. MORRIS: But you know what I mean. We are basically going to the depths of these genres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13418 And especially with Canadian music; us being you know, some people artists or being involved with the music industry that brings that passion even more into actually wanting to help these artists. Because you know being an artist, getting your music played on radio is very hard and it's a struggle and probably discouraging for a lot of artists over the years and over years that they tried. So there has to be another opportunity for these artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13419 And we don't have to pick the top five artists, Canadian artists that are doing well. We should be helping those ones that are doing well but not on radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13420 MR. YOUNG: Madam Commissioner, I would also add, I think, reflecting on your earlier comment about loyalty and the younger demographic, that perhaps one of the realities is that the lack of loyalty, maybe they don't feel that someone is understanding what they are really experiencing in terms of the music they listen to. I think what SKY is trying to do is say, you know what, we are the real thing. We understand what you want. We understand what is really going on in your clubs and because you are not getting it on the radio we are going to give it to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13421 And that's part of our submission as a new voice that's unique and, I would submit, that that would be exactly why we think this format will succeed in a very unique way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13422 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you very much for that. I think we do have a better understanding now of your format and what it is that you hope to accomplish with this format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13423 I do have a very detailed question, however.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13424 Today, Ms Bitner, in your presentation you very succinctly said 74 percent of the daily selection will be urban and dance; 26 percent to world music. Therefore, 74 percent is Category 2 music and 26 percent is Category 3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13425 MS BITNER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13426 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. I needed to get that clarified because ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13427 MS BITNER: Absolutely, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13428 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ in response of deficiencies dated the 23rd of November the applicant said 100 percent of our music selections would be considered Category 3. Then on November 30th the response was that all of the music falls into Category 2, and then later in that same letter you say that 74 percent would be Category 2 and 26 percent Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13429 MS BITNER: The last ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13430 MEMBER CUGINI: So I needed that confusion to be cleared up on the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13431 MS BITNER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13432 MEMBER CUGINI: It's definitely 74 and 26?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13433 MS BITNER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13434 MEMBER CUGINI: Mr. Sunner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13435 MR. SUNNER: If I can actually touch on that, that was an actually genuine mistake when ‑‑ the answer for the 100 percent on the Category 3 and we rectified that in our deficiencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13436 And on the 23rd ‑‑ on the 30th I believe of the deficiencies, there was two sheets submitted and the one that stated 74, it was sort of hard to get that category mix right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13437 So when I was speaking to Michael Craig he suggested that we send in a two‑day playlist and it was sort of really ‑‑ even these playlists that we did submit in such a short time we tried to explain it by dropping the Category 2 and 3 on the right‑hand side of the playlist to try and just clear that up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13438 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13439 If the Commission deems it necessary would you accept a condition of licence that caps your Category 3 music at 26 percent of your playlist?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13440 MR. SUNNER: We would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13441 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13442 Will any of the music ‑‑ will any of the world music be in languages other than English or French?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13443 MR. SUNNER: Of course. Music ‑‑ African music, music from Asia. As you know, there is a massive Asian population in Vancouver which is very underserved. Even on the Asian radio stations here they are lacking the same as all the multicultural radio stations of having a radio station where that youth can go to, to get into that underground demographic. That's why Phong Lee, our Asian music specialist ‑‑ we are really committed into bringing a right mix, however long it takes to find the right sound.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13444 We have a different radio operation as well when it comes to the music. We have a programmer, a selector and specialists from each department. It's quite exciting actually being here in Vancouver, living here for nearly 20 years now, to see how the city has changed and how the music really hasn't to a certain degree. And we felt that there was a massive void in this market. And if you do actually look around at this beautiful team here today you will see that this is Vancouver as it stands and we will stand and deliver a very underground sound for the Asian massive here, definitely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13445 MR. MORRIS: I just wanted to actually add to that ‑‑ sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13446 MEMBER CUGINI: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13447 MR. MORRIS: Not only is the ‑‑ you were asking if the music ‑‑ the language will be in all ‑‑ in English or in foreign languages. Of course, some music, like there is reggae tone and Asian hip hop that is spoken in English by these artists. So it could vary, you know, depending on the song, right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13448 MR. SUNNER: So also a lot of mixes that are being produced right now, on a four‑minute song you will get two minutes of sort of Asian language and then two minutes of English on it. There is a massive amount of music being produced like that. That's what we would decidedly go for, the split of English and whatever other language, like French and English, even German and English, Bhangra and English. There is so many mixes now. That's actually ‑‑ that's the thing that's bringing the youth of the world together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13449 MR. YOUNG: I do want to interject and say how much with the issue of different languages that things have changed. Just as a comment this is my 20th year of call at the bar. Pretty much all my legal career has been in entertainment and media and when we first dealt with language issues at one point there was sort of this feeling that it's language A or language B.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13450 And what I have noticed in the last couple of years, having a 15‑year old daughter at home that constantly has her computer on with music, is in fact that there is just a tremendous amount of music that has mixed language. I'm thinking pretty much on a nightly basis I'm hearing songs that are predominantly English for same very, very interesting interjections of Asian language mixes and things like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13451 And part of the diversity of Vancouver, I think, is reflected in our format because of the fact that we are recognizing that in the world scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13452 MR. SUNNER: If I could just jump in there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13453 In 1997 on the world music station here, Fairchild Radio, I produced and hosted a show that was a two‑hour show that actually brought that mix into Vancouver for the first time. It was the first Indo‑Canadian remix show in Canada and every song that we played had half the languages where they were in Hindi or Punjabi and half of them was from all over the other parts of the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13454 There is actually music being produced now with English as a third language where Asian people from, say, Japan and Bollywood are working together with artists over in North America. So the new thing is the three‑slice that SKY FM would be bringing to the radio as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13455 MEMBER CUGINI: Will any of the spoken word be in languages other than English and French?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13456 MR. SUNNER: Not at all. Everything will be spoken in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13457 MEMBER CUGINI: Do you ‑‑ based on that description of the world music what do you believe will be your impact on the two ethnic South Asian radio stations in the market currently?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13458 MR. SUNNER: Well, I have seen the progress of ethnic radio here, like being here for 20 years. There would be no impact into that as the mixes that would be played on SKY 104 FM would not be played on those.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13459 The demographic, the audience from those communities, basically young Canadian‑born are not really into the traditional and the folk music which, as like world beat, we at SKY 104 FM are not playing traditional and folk music. We are more in the remix market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13460 So the same thing goes for all the ethnic radio stations that we are away from that tradition and folk, and that's where we feel there is a niche there to really explore, as we did in 1997 that brought me into Radioland and how successful that show became. It was mind blowing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13461 MEMBER CUGINI: Onto the area of spoken word programming, you are proposing a total of 2.5 hours per broadcast week of spoken word of which approximately one hour is news; is that correct, on a weekly basis?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13462 MR. SUNNER: On a weekly basis we do have 60 minutes of news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13463 MEMBER CUGINI: Does that one hour of news include surveillance material; weather, traffic, sports?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13464 MR. SUNNER: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13465 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. We will take two and a half hours per week spoken word minus one hour of news. How much surveillance material will you be broadcasting on a weekly basis? You have got an hour and a half left.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13466 MR. SUNNER: Spoken word ‑‑ as far as spoken word goes, if I remember correctly, we are at about ‑‑ just under 200 minutes of spoken word counting the weather, traffic and news and also our community billboard notice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13467 MEMBER CUGINI: And that's your total?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13468 MR. SUNNER: That's right. That also includes the urban village.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13469 MEMBER CUGINI: So to that 200 minutes I add 60 minutes of news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13470 MR. SUNNER: No, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13471 MS BITNER: Yes. Okay, actually we ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13472 MEMBER CUGINI: Do you want to confer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13473 MS BITNER: I would, yes, absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13474 MR. SUNNER: Just one second. Let me ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13475 MS BITNER: 240 minutes of traffic and weather per week, 45 minutes of community notice board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13476 Let's see here. Our news is 60 minutes per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13477 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13478 MS BITNER: And then also we have our urban village program which is 30 minutes. Let's see, 150 minutes per week, half of that; 75 minutes per week which is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13479 MEMBER CUGINI: I'm sorry, is what?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13480 MS BITNER: Sorry. We have got our urban village program which is 30 minutes per day, but half of that program is actually music and half of it is spoken word. So that's 75 minutes per week at a total of 420 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13481 MEMBER CUGINI: And what about unstructured spoken word programming, DJ banter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13482 MS BITNER: Oh, was that included? That is definitely not included.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13483 MEMBER CUGINI: That's not included in the 420?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13484 MS BITNER: No, it is not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13485 MEMBER CUGINI: Perhaps you could provide us with a chart outlining what you have just given us plus unstructured spoken word for a grand total. And our legal counsel will tell you by when you have to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13486 MS BITNER: Thank you very much, absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13487 MEMBER CUGINI: I am curious, though, as to why you believe only one hour of news per week is sufficient for this target demo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13488 MR. SUNNER: Well, we ‑‑ when we put the application together our passion is more about the music and we fully believe in being a music‑oriented radio station. We made the choice that there is many radio stations here in the city that have large news crews which also cost a lot of money to run that. If you are going to do news you really have to do it big time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13489 We made the choice to deal with a smaller news segment that didn't really touch upon too much of the bad things that are broadcasted. Unless it is something really important, most of our news will be about the world of arts and culture, lifestyles and the environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13490 MEMBER CUGINI: So you are not going to provide, I don't know, the headline news of the news story of the day? The budget, you are not going to cover the budget for this demo? Not that a 12‑year old might be that interested.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13491 MR. SUNNER: Well, our demographics, you know, we believe are more interested in other different kinds of news. Unless the Pope gets shot, you know.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13492 MR. SUNNER: Then, you know, something that's major. And we are local. We are local news. We are more talking about Granville Street and the issues, the problems in Vancouver as a whole, that kind of news with a different twist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13493 Like I said, our news is just five days, just in the morning times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13494 MR. YOUNG: I think that again goes to the reality that our demo target, demographic is being recognized as being both internet savvy, television savvy, and otherwise. And I think looking at the realities of the other forms of media that they consume has led to that result.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13495 MEMBER CUGINI: But I can't help but feel that therefore ‑‑ I mean you are providing, you know, community listings or club listings as opposed to hard news. Like you are providing community news to this target demo as opposed to news they can use. Is that correct? Does that ‑‑ because I do understand from your application that you are saying:
"...a more positive and social facet to our spoken word programming where activities, events and cultural issues take precedence over what is traditionally described as news." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 13496 MEMBER CUGINI: I mean are you going to tell your demo when for some reason schools are closed or school buses aren't in operation? Is there going to be news they can use?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13497 MR. SUNNER: Of course, if you are talking about from the application it gives the information of just what you said. Of course when we made this application, once again going back into the news, we haven't projected a big news team, right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13498 So the important day‑to‑day services communicating with Vancouver's public, there will be awareness and news will be delivered about some things that are important, especially with the schooling because of the demographics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13499 MEMBER CUGINI: And because you brought up the issue of the news team it probably is in your application. I can't find it right now but can you go over ‑‑ can you go through your staffing list for me; in particular how many people will be employed in the newsroom, how many programming people, how many on air people within that programming element?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13500 MR. SUNNER: It really hasn't been 100 percent finalized in the application. We believe that we can run this operation with about ‑‑ under 20 people for a budget of about half a million dollars.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13501 MEMBER CUGINI: You are anticipating my next line of questioning because it is something that I looked at in terms of your financial and did notice that there is quite a sizeable amount on that payroll line. Payroll and benefits for the first year I think it is $583,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13502 MR. SUNNER: Yes, I believe that's it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13503 MEMBER CUGINI: That's for the 20 people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13504 MR. SUNNER: Yes, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13505 MEMBER CUGINI: And yet your programming expenses are relatively low. It's only $29,000. What are you including in that line item?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13506 MR. SUNNER: The programming expenses of ‑‑ I have to check, just to double check. But when it says programming that was just the cost, costings for the people on air. Am I understanding that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13507 MEMBER CUGINI: They are your financials.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13508 MR. SUNNER: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13509 MEMBER CUGINI: So I need to know what you included in that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13510 MR. SUNNER: Jeff, could you look into that, please? You are more familiar with the figures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13511 MR. YOUNG: I actually believe that the programming is mainly to do with licensing fees and ‑‑ in that direction, and the staffing side of it is to deal with all, basically human resources‑type costs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13512 MEMBER CUGINI: And that's all in the payroll and benefits?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13513 MR. YOUNG: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13514 MEMBER CUGINI: And administration in general does that include staff members?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13515 MR. YOUNG: I am just looking at the ‑‑ are you referring actually to the Excel spreadsheet that was filed supplementary or on the face of the application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13516 MEMBER CUGINI: I'm looking at your financial projections and assumptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13517 MR. YOUNG: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13518 MEMBER CUGINI: Which is 7.1, I believe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13519 MR. YOUNG: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13520 MEMBER CUGINI: In the application.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 13521 MR. YOUNG: Oh, here we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13522 Programming refers to statutory licences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13523 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13524 MR. YOUNG: Administration in general, payroll and benefits; payroll and benefits would deal with human resources matters. Administration in general will deal with office expenses and related things as such, so everything from rent to photocopy paper to those types of things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13525 MEMBER CUGINI: So everything above the payroll and benefits line does not include people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13526 MR. YOUNG: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13527 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13528 Now, staying with the economic analysis of your application, I mean, you guys really do present a very positive picture going forward. You have a positive PBIT in the first year. And that's a good thing. I am not saying that that's a bad thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13529 And between years four and seven your average PBIT is 52.3 percent while the average for the Vancouver market is 24.1. What makes you such savvy business people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13530 MR. SUNNER: We believe in running an operation cost effective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13531 And maybe, Jeff, you could add to that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13532 MR. YOUNG: I think the optimism is balanced with the reality that we have secured a significant amount of financial backing. In the event that it doesn't happen we are covered, in essence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13533 And so we have looked at the revenues and projections on the basis that there is indeed a significant amount of optimism in terms of the efficiency that the station wants to run. It is being run with what is viewed as somewhat of a thin, you know, infrastructure compared to a lot of other stations. And recognizing that it's a new team, we have I guess got the cushion in case these figures don't materialize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13534 MEMBER CUGINI: Because you will ‑‑ you have access to additional financing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13535 MR. YOUNG: I'm sorry?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13536 MEMBER CUGINI: Because you will have access to additional financing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13537 MR. YOUNG: Yes, correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13538 MEMBER CUGINI: Your target audience, however, is not typically that attractive to advertisers. Do you wish to confirm or deny?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13539 MR. YOUNG: I'm actually quite comfortable in denying that. I think it has everything to do with how you reach that target market in terms of the way media is converging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13540 And I would very much look at major, major corporations in the world, particularly in the new media area, Yahoo, Google, My Space, you know, on and on, and some of the new electronics manufacturers and people like that that have zeroed in completely on that market. I think specifically of the number of kids that were lined up in front of electronics stores last Christmas when I was lining up with my own daughter. And I really ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13541 MEMBER CUGINI: They are all going after Guitar Hero ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13542 MR. YOUNG: And the like, but you know there is a lot of interesting cross promotion in that area, for example, when you are negotiating with videogame manufacturer, when you are negotiating with people who are dealing with that media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13543 And that's exactly what I mean. We want to build business relationships with those people to drive that youth market back to radio to listen. And I think that's an approach that is somewhat different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13544 It's not just about going to traditional advertisers which obviously we are not going to turn down, but it's also to look for those new areas of, you know, cross promotion. A lot of interesting people who are willing to look at that type of relationship is where we are after.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13545 MEMBER CUGINI: Have you had preliminary discussions with advertisers in the market to gauge their interest?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13546 MR. YOUNG: There is a significant number of ‑‑ like I think somewhat ‑‑ in fact I have them here, photocopies of very ‑‑ I think about 50 letters from different advertisers, all talking about estimated monies that they would you know consider giving to the station for advertising revenues and such.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13547 And so I think our projections, as optimistic as they were, were not pie in the sky. They were based on things like the letters that I have in my file.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13548 MEMBER CUGINI: And that's the reference that Mr. Sunner made in your oral presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13549 MR. SUNNER: Yes, if I could just add to that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13550 Being involved, myself here in Vancouver in radio and television, when you talk about our demographics that it's not that big, I sort of seem to disagree. But this is a custom‑made kind of a crew here that already has built up lots of ‑‑ hundreds of thousands, millions some of us here that have collected over the years from local sponsorship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13551 And I think the better answer might come from actually David who has done a lot of research on the sales and marketing side of things in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13552 MR. ST. HELENE: Good morning. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13553 We have definitely done the research and the research that was conducted prior to the application, and as part of the application indicates steadily from a research one, information that was provided in the application that that demographic does continue to grow steadily, that the 12 to 34; 18 to 24 which is really our focus target segment, does continue to grow. And being a non‑traditional broadcaster we are targeting non‑traditional advertisers as well, that we are providing a target group that a lot of advertisers do have a difficult time reaching.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13554 The comment that you made with regards to this is one of those ones that advertisers are sometimes wary of in how do you tap into, it's because traditional advertising methods don't reach them. The message that's being sent isn't being heard and it's sometimes due to a lack of understanding of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13555 The opportunity that we provide to non‑traditional advertisers is a mixed media presentation as well. We are not just a radio broadcasting company. We're an online presentation as well, that we do look at the communities that exist on that side of the marketplace as well, and that companies moving forward can't just look at things in isolation when they go to sending their message to those potential target groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13556 You're exactly right, these people are receiving their radio ‑‑ their broadcast music on a multitude of different signals, be it PodCast, be it iPod, be it download, be it even illegal download and how advertisers can now tap into that market is not the same way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13557 So, the success rates that they've seen traditionally now have to adjust, the companies need to grow and evolve and we're definitely providing a pipeline for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13558 MEMBER CUGINI: And you did touch upon it a little bit in your video presentation, but what are you doing about interactivity and Internet presence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13559 Go ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13560 MR. ST. HELENE: We have several programs in place and our interactive director Jay can attest to a few of those.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13561 MR. HARMER: To begin with, to draw attention to our website for artists we are going to be creating a PodCast called Industry for Musicians, which is mentioned in the video.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13562 MEMBER CUGINI: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13563 MR. HARMER: Which is going to be a learning tool. It won't be something at this point we're going to broadcast, it will just be available online.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13564 So, that is going to start our program for drawing people directly ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13565 MEMBER CUGINI: To be exclusive to the web?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13566 MR. HARMER: Exclusive to the web, yeah. It will be a PodCast which would be free to download, but it's not something that we broadcast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13567 Beyond that, having an online presence, working with things like sponsor advertising, we can run give‑aways and promotions through the website, we can handle song sales for material that's already been licensed, we can do polling, statistics gathering, as well as ticket sales for our events or other local events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13568 There are other stations who run very successful preferred ticket sales programs and we're definitely interested in looking at something like that. As well, working with labels to create promotions for their artists on the website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13569 So, we are really looking at a very robust presentation for online because we know that our target audiences will be watching both at the same time, listening to the radio, surfing the Net. So, we'd like to get them on both sides.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13570 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13571 MR. YOUNG: Point of clarification also on two things. One, the revenue projections does include what we anticipate just from peer on‑air radio advertising but, rather, all advertising, all revenues, including new media and online sources.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13572 And, secondly, just by reference, this stack of paper is indeed all single sheets, signed documentation that shows commitments, at least in principle, ranging from a high of about 200,000 per company down to about a low of 10,000 per company per annum in terms of, you know, intentions that they would advertise with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13573 MEMBER CUGINI: So, when I look at your financial projections though, in both the national revenue line and the local retail revenue line, therein are amounts generated from your website?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13574 Is that what you just ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13575 MR. YOUNG: I just want to clarify so we can be absolutely, sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13576 MEMBER CUGINI: Because I have your Schedule "C", Seven Year Financial Forecast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13577 MR. YOUNG: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13578 MEMBER CUGINI: And I have got a national revenue line, agency commissions, net national revenue, local retail revenue and other, which is blank.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13579 MR. ST. HELENE: Sorry. If it pleases the Commission, I'll answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13580 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13581 MR. ST. HELENE: The revenue projections are based on radio revenue, but as part of our radio sales we do have a product mix that includes online features where an advertiser might be purchasing a 30‑second spot but part of that might also include a new media portion, be that something on our website or as part of a contest or something that we might be running on our new media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13582 Going forward, new products would be developed that would allow us to sell new media exclusively as well as part of a bundled package that would be part of both radio advertising and a new media advertising program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13583 MEMBER CUGINI: So, that would be on top of what is included in this Schedule, should that come to fruition; right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13584 MR. ST. HELEN: That would be, and that would fall under either a new media advertising line or an other income line, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13585 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. Well, thank you for clarifying that. I just got a little bit of a, you know, panic moment there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13586 I'm going to move on to your CCD and, again, in your oral presentation this morning ‑‑ sorry, I'll get it ‑‑ you say $150,000 over seven years is your base amount, is that...
LISTNUM 1 \l 13587 MR. SUNNER: Regarding the CCD, I think, Jay, you'd be much better at explaining it than me because you're a specialist.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13588 MR. HARMER: Thank you, Michael.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13589 The total ‑‑ our total contribution was $150,378 and that's based on seven‑year contributions starting 2009, 13,000; same with 2010, 2011, 2012 it increases to 17,800; 2013 goes to 24,403; 2014 is 31,000; 2015 is 37,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13590 MEMBER CUGINI: And what is your base amount?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13591 MR. HARMER: The base amount is a thousand dollars and our over and above is 2,400 which increases over the course of the years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13592 MEMBER CUGINI: Over the course of the seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13593 MR. HARMER: But we also do include additional contributions to Music B.C. as well as the Richmond/Vancouver/Burnaby and New Westminster School Boards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13594 MEMBER CUGINI: Right. And on the school boards, because other than FACTOR, for the most part ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13595 MR. HARMER: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13596 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ the recipients of your CCD monies are school boards?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13597 MR. HARMER: That's correct. Music B.C. and FACTOR and the school boards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13598 MEMBER CUGINI: Right. And have you had discussions with the recipients?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13599 MR. HARMER: We actually haven't pursued them yet until we have something that we can actually concretely bring to them, but our research has shown that they will be reciprocative to receiving a donation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13600 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. You may have noticed from reading other applications in this proceeding that typically applicants will include letters from the potential ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13601 MR. HARMER: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13602 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ CCD recipients saying that the recipients understand our policy when it comes to the distribution of those monies and how they should be used and that they will agree to dispensing the monies according to our commercial radio policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13603 Is it possible for you to do that ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13604 MR. HARMER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13605 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ before the licensing decision is made?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13606 MR. HARMER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13607 MEMBER CUGINI: And have those letters submitted to the Commission by the potential recipients of CCD monies?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13608 MR. HARMER: Most certainly. Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13609 MEMBER CUGINI: And, once again, our legal counsel will tell you by when you need to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13610 MR. HARMER: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13611 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13612 MR. SUNNER: If I could just add a little bit more onto the talking about the base of Canadian content development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13613 When we put this application to the CRTC, being our first application we've ever put together, we kept it very realistic and very honest with the amount of financing we had.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13614 And it was sort of quite an interesting period because it was a secret when we made the application and then when it went to public notice we were quite amazed by the support in our community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13615 I think one of the reasons for that was because our team is so powerful in the city in the fields that we work in and we amassed this massive amount of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13616 We were looking at sort of roughly about a million dollars a year and then, all of a sudden, during that period of becoming public notice to our intervention period that all the support came in which really sort of encouraged us, because the Canadian content development program does need funding, but we couldn't just write out a cheque and say, you know, we can put a million dollars towards that plan because we wouldn't be able to do it. So, we went very realistic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13617 Today, sitting here, and after spending hundreds of hours with Jason figuring this out when all the support came in, to onward forward march with the CAPI plan, that the ratio of sales really does skyrocket, like, it's sort of like five times fold. And, like I said, we were amazed and surprised.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13618 So, our Canadian content from looking at how low it seemed to be compared with other applicants, it's still low, but when all put together, you know, it still amounts up to, you know, a hundred thousand dollars a year if all these sales do actually come in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13619 MEMBER CUGINI: It's what you do with it that counts as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13620 MR. SUNNER: Yes, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13621 MEMBER CUGINI: As well. Before I ask you to compare your proposal to that of others who seem to be going after the same target demo, I do need to ask you a couple more detail questions regarding your format so that we have a broader base on which to compare.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13622 One of the areas of your application that had, you know, a couple of different answers was the area of the number of musical selections per hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13623 I think in your file we find a range of answers going from 10 to 30 songs per hour and, you know, from our research a typical radio station will broadcast 10 to 15 songs per clock hour with the number being closer to 10.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13624 Do you have a better idea as to how many songs per clock hour you will be broadcasting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13625 MR. SUNNER: When we sort of put this together there was a few ideas and I think Leanne, I think you would be ‑‑ send out a more loud clear message regarding the amount of songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13626 MS BITNER: Basically between 10 and 14 songs is what we've stuck to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13627 MEMBER CUGINI: And given ‑‑ I'm sorry, I don't remember your name.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13628 MS BITNER: Leanne.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13629 MEMBER CUGINI: No, the gentleman sitting beside you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13630 MS BITNER: I'm sorry, sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13631 MR. MORRIS: James.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13632 MEMBER CUGINI: Your last name?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13633 MR. MORRIS: Morris.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13634 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. So, we have to do this. Mr. Morris, given how you were talking about the different mixes ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13635 MR. MORRIS: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13636 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ that you might be presenting on air, is it your intention to make use of medleys or montages in order to provide that mix of music, or will it be, you know, this is the track from Rhianna and this is the track from Delhi 2 Dublin and play the track in its entirety?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13637 MR. MORRIS: Well, it all depends really. It could range from a lot of songs. If Rhianna had a song that is popular and it's requested, or if that's what's on our playlist, we will play something like that. If we have a remix, maybe we might be playing something like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13638 There's no one way we're going to stick to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13639 MEMBER CUGINI: It might be a remix, but would it be a medley or a montage of an artist?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13640 Okay. A medley is a compilation of one minute or more in duration in which artists or musicians combine excerpts from several musical selections within a single performance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13641 MR. MORRIS: No, it will be just one song, like, there will be individual songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13642 MEMBER CUGINI: And a montage is a compilation of one minute or more in duration containing excerpts from several musical selections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13643 MR. MORRIS: No, no, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13644 MEMBER CUGINI: So, you won't be making any use of montages or medleys?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13645 MR. MORRIS: No, they will be actual songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13646 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13647 MR. MORRIS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13648 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13649 MR. MORRIS: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13650 MEMBER CUGINI: Now, we do have a couple of other applications in this proceeding that, as I said before, does target your demo as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13651 Have you had an opportunity to look at those applications and, in particular, I'm thinking of the application from Newcap which is proposing an adult urban format, Evanov which is a youth contemporary format and as well the numbered Alberta company which is a modern global world hits format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13652 MR. SUNNER: Yes, of course we've gone through all the applications of all the other companies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13653 We feel pretty strong about our format. The urban format with the electronical beat mixed up with a truly brand new world beat kind of style.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13654 We don't ‑‑ even though we might have gone for the same demographics, we feel that there is more of a void in the market space for a station like SKY 104 FM's format than the other applicants that you just talked about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13655 MEMBER CUGINI: So, if we were to license you, could we license any of these others as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13656 MR. SUNNER: Like I said earlier on, we stand and deliver on our format. It wouldn't really affect us because we have our own sources of revenue. Basically a lot of that revenue is new revenues that would be coming into radio land.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13657 I think the reason for that is because of the experience and the team being here are Vancouver people for a long, long time. Business people sponsor support when they like individuals and we do definitely have some individuals and characters on our team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13658 It would make a difference if you did license someone from the other demographics, no, not at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13659 MEMBER CUGINI: Well, I want to thank you all very much for your presentation here this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13660 Madam Chair, those are all my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13661 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe Commissioner Menzies has some questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13662 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13663 This relates to your business plan and, to some extent ‑‑ actually entirely, regarding your ability to attract and retain the sort of talent that you'll need in the long run in a market ‑‑ in any market, but in a market this competitive, the quality of talent you have will be very important to you. And you are a really interesting team to listen to and to look at. You're right, you look like Vancouver and I'm enjoying that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13664 But in year seven ‑‑ and I think in year one your business plan is very prudent and very honest. In year seven you're planning on making a lot of money, 60 per cent ROR, your profits will have risen 300 per cent, by then your wages will have gone up 35 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13665 And it made me curious so that I could ‑‑ made me curious about what your plan would be to retain talent and keep it happy, given the cost of living in Vancouver and given that your salaries for 20 people, from what I understand would be, you know, averaging around 30,000 a year, growing to 35, 36 seven years from now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13666 Can you address that for me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13667 MR. YOUNG: Yeah. I think that if we achieve any of our financial targets that the company would not necessarily be closed to some form of profit participation on behalf of the key people that are involved and that would address the fact that if everyone's working for perhaps lower than industry standard compensation, that things like that would be there to compensate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13668 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I'm not trying to be a bargaining agent for your staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13669 MR. YOUNG: I understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13670 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I'm just trying to get a sense of your understanding of some of those challenges that you might face down the road and whether you have, at least, the beginnings of a plan to retain talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13671 MR. YOUNG: Yeah. Well, I really ‑‑ that was a very genuine comment in the sense that I think a lot of what's happened in Vancouver specifically, and I, you know, pretty much spend eight to 10 billable hours a day dealing with some form of entertainment in Vancouver and I discovered that, in fact, a lot of what the compensation package that attracts, you know, business talent as well as on‑air talent and otherwise in this city is the ability to be involved in the success of businesses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13672 In so many negotiations I'm involved with I actually see people going, "You know it's not about the base salary, I need this to live, it's about being involved and feeling part of the team financially and otherwise".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13673 And to the extent that if the success does happen, which we believe in, I think that's a very genuine reality of saying, let's get people involved. Not necessarily in a, you know, common share voting kind of way, but certainly in some kind of a bonus percentage kind of way that's properly documented and promised.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13674 MR. SUNNER: If I may add to that, like I says, when we made the application it was our first application, very realistic, so it sort of ‑‑ when ‑‑ after we went public notice, again I have to say this is that we were absolutely amazed at the amount of support people are sort of pushing towards us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13675 So, all those projections on the business plan, keeping that talent happy and together, most of this crew has been working together for at least 10 years in different ways individually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13676 I now can honestly sit here and say that that business plan and all those projections of our first year to seven years ‑‑ and, sir, you says that by the seventh year we would be making a lot of money ‑‑ well, I believe it's not going to take us that long and I believe this team will benefit from it all the way around through artists' belief and in their pockets because we have ‑‑ I can't really explain in the way that having all that extra finance now also available how confident and strong we really feel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13677 If we were accepted, and I'm sure all these people on this team would be even working harder than they've worked over the last three months, to take all them projection figures and say, listen, we said that we were going to do about a million, now someone says that, all the people in the Vancouver that $5‑million a year, that's a big difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13678 So, our overall cost of wages and all that is going to be beneficial to the people that will basically be the birth of SKY 104 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13679 And, hopefully, being in radio land for many years, you know, it is hard to keep talent together. One of the ways we believe we can do it is by at the end of the day ‑‑ at the end of the year, make sure that the whole crew is happy financially.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13680 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Thank you very much for your answer and, for the record, I'm not at all opposed to making money.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13681 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Duncan, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13682 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I do have just a couple of questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13683 I just want to understand on your financials then, just referring to your unique way of selling advertising, and I think you referred to it as cross‑promotion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13684 So, what I'd like to know is if your revenue line includes those cross‑promotions like the contra; is the revenue in and then the contra part an expense, or is it just not recorded in your revenues?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13685 MR. ST. HELENE: When you're referring to contra, are you referring to the programs that we're offering for emerging artists and that type of thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13686 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: No, I'm talking about revenue and the contra word is my word, I think that you use the word cross‑promotion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13687 MR. ST. HELENE: Okay. If referring to the kind of mixed media approach ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13688 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13689 MR. ST. HELENE: ‑‑ with regards to having perhaps an online and a radio component. Initially, as we ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13690 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Sorry, no, I'm not. I think you were talking about ‑‑ just let me just get the gentleman's name just behind you, your counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13691 MR. ST. HELENE: Oh, Mr. Young.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13692 MR. YOUNG: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13693 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Sorry, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13694 You had mentioned ‑‑ you had talked in terms of cross‑promotion and you'd be looking ‑‑ what I understood you to be saying is you would be looking for unique ways of raising advertising revenues, perhaps Google I think was one of the examples that you had illustrated ‑‑ you had given.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13695 So, I'm just wondering how that is reflected on your revenue line?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13696 MR. YOUNG: I think any of these types of things it would be reflected as reality because a lot of these do involve a payment component and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13697 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Your microphone is not on, sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13698 MR. YOUNG: A lot of these transactions involve both cash and payment components, whether by Internet micro‑payments and, you know, referral fees and those types of things; or, alternatively, if it's reflected in actual contra, meaning, you know, a certain amount of services in exchange for certain amounts of services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13699 In the latter category, the projections are ‑‑ don't reflect that from a dollar and cents perspective, but in the former category it would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13700 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. So, that's important from my point of view, because we do have a limited number of frequencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13701 MR. YOUNG: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13702 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: And we're trying to assess, you know, what's going to serve the market the best. And this is very exciting, it's interesting ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13703 MR. YOUNG: Mm‑hmmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13704 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: ‑‑ it's unique, I can appreciate all of that and you are all fun to look at and I'm sure you do represent Vancouver.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13705 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: But I'm just concerned that your revenue projections, then when I look at your revenue projections and your audience share projections you're second lowest in what we have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13706 MR. YOUNG: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13707 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: And, so, your revenues might be understated ‑‑ your gross revenues, if I want to look at that line ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13708 MR. YOUNG: Mm‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13709 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: ‑‑ and compare you to the other applicants, then they're going to be understated by the amount of those revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13710 MR. YOUNG: I think Michael's comment in terms of the additional optimism of our team increasing is in fact true, that at the time the application was filed there was the thought of doing something different, doing something unique and as a result we wanted to be completely open and honest with the resources that the Applicant had at the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13711 As you can appreciate, with the sort of energy that these things build, we have had sort of community support in a way that's very dramatic, very unique. And even, like I said, the stack of papers here that I have that reflect advertisers and excitement about it is not something we had when we first started.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13712 So, I would say that where we positioned ourselves relative to everyone else, as it turns out is the reality of what was happening then. Now, that we've reached hearing date, I would say we were being honest and real for the time that it was.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13713 Are we more optimistic than we were when we started? Absolutely. And I think that we ‑‑ if we were to say ‑‑ if the Commission were to say, is there revised documents that we could submit that reflect the optimism and the current reality, we could. But given that this is what was filed and we were very honest to ourselves at the time, that's what we have before us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13714 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right. Thank you for that explanation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13715 MR. YOUNG: Yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13716 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13717 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do have a couple of questions. I'm just going to make notes first.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 13718 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Firstly, we will come back to you for your last pitch, but I recognize that you are applying for the first time and that but, you know, you look like there's some business experience here. I think that you can tell from the Panel questions that your business case is a real concern.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13719 So, that's something you may want to address when we come back on the last pitch or in Phase IV to better explain your business case. You cannot change it any more, but that's something you may wish to address.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13720 And, so, more specifically, I have a question right now. I was interested in your video where you talked about CAPI, the C‑A‑P‑I, and it sounded like it was a barter where you would let them have air time for advertising. Could you explain that, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13721 MR. HARMER: Certainly. It's not just simply barter. What we're proposing is, we're going to pony up a pool of advertising and we're going to exchange ‑‑ we'll administer the exchange as well ‑‑ to suppliers that bands will be requiring to go on tour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13722 So, we would be putting together packages that instead of ‑‑ this comes from the argument that bands don't just need to be given money they also need to be given means.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13723 So, it's much easier to get a sponsor to trade something that they already have in their inventory instead of trying to get direct cash out of them. So, if you ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13724 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, maybe you can give me a concrete example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13725 MR. HARMER: Sure. Let's say hypothetically we went to a hotel chain like Best Western and we approached them and we said, "We have a program that is going to be supporting new artists, we'd be interested in exchanging $5,000 worth of air time advertising directly to you at your list cost for a hotel room." And then we sign an agreement with them, we get the agreement for the hotel rooms and then we crate that with a package with fuel and a vehicle rental and we put it all together and then we award it to a band and that way offsetting their touring costs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13726 And it's ‑‑ I think one of the best parts of it is ‑‑ well, there's two best parts. It's win/win for everybody because it's ‑‑ the advertising is less expensive for the supplier because they're charging list cost; it's beneficial to us because we're helping new artists and we're helping the bands because this is just ‑‑ we're just handing them the hotel rooms, thing, go, get out of here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13727 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And that is in addition to the dollar amount in CCD contributions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13728 MR. HARMER: Yes, yes, absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13729 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13730 MR. HARMER: This is ‑‑ the idea was to try and ‑‑ Michael challenged me to come up with programs that would go above and beyond the financial requirement using the resources that we had, so this is one of the solutions that I had come up with ‑‑ we have come up with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13731 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13732 MR. SUNNER: You've done a great job, Jay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13733 MR. HARMER: Thanks, man.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13734 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13735 MR. HARMER: There's one thing else I'd like to add. With the CAPI program, the principle behind it is that anyone can actually donate to the media pool. So, we'd really like to encourage other resources like print and other radio stations to also contribute time and print ads so that we can create a network which will allow us a much larger amount of clout so that we can create an even bigger pool of exchange so that we can support ours directly on a much grander national scale.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Harmer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13737 MR. HARMER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13738 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe Ms Pinsky has a question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13739 MS PINSKY: Yes, I just have a few questions of clarification.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13740 You discussed your CCD commitments with Commissioner Cugini this morning, and in your presentation you spoke of a CCD commitment over seven years of $150,000. We have in your Application I believe a number of $123,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13741 Would you be able to explain the difference?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13742 MR. HARMER: Could you give me the reference for the $123,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13743 MS PINSKY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13744 MR. HARMER: That may be the number for the additional other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13745 MS PINSKY: You mean on ‑‑ see, we have a break‑out of 25,200 for FACTOR and 19,560 for each of the various school boards and the Pacific Music Industry Association. So, those numbers together add up to 123.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13746 MR. HARMER: I'm sorry, could you read me those again, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13747 MS PINSKY: Mm‑hmm. It was 19,560 for each of the school boards and the Pacific Music Industry Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13748 MR. HARMER: Yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13749 MS PINSKY: And the 25,200 to FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13750 MR. SUNNER: What appendix are you looking at there, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13751 MS PINSKY: I will get you the reference. Sorry, I had it in ‑‑ I'll come back to that question when I have the reference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13752 MR. HARMER: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13753 MS PINSKY: Just to clarify the concept of live‑to‑air ‑‑ because in your response to the deficiency, I think there may have been a misunderstanding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13754 You have committed to 126 hours of local programming. Did I understand your response correctly that the full amount would be live?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13755 MR. SUNNER: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13756 MS PINSKY: Also, with regard to your CCD commitment, in your oral presentation today you spoke of how it would increase five times, since your initial projections, to $750,000 over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13757 I wondered if you could explain that, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13758 MR. SUNNER: I can briefly get into that, and maybe Jay could help me finish it off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13759 Like I say, when we projected about $1 million for the year, our CCD plan broke down, over a seven‑year period, to about $150,000. That was on no sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13760 At the intervention time, when we submitted ‑‑ turning our annual sales to $5 million ‑‑ in our deficiencies we were asked the question that, if our sales went up, would we contribute a certain ratio toward our CCD commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13761 So when we sort of five‑folded the $150,000 over the seven‑year period, it amounted to ‑‑ you would have the figure there, Jay ‑‑ $700,000 or something like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13762 MR. HARMER: The C.A.P.I. contribution would have been $700,000, but originally, when speaking to the $150,000 overall, that included all of the contribution additions between FACTOR, PMIA and the school boards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13763 To go back to the $126,000, that is actually our additional, over and above the basic FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13764 It is at 8.1 in the additional information. I believe that is what you are referencing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13765 If you look at the first page, where it says "Statement of Basic Contribution," if you total the additional FACTOR and the additional "Other" together, that is the $126,000. That doesn't include the basic FACTOR contribution.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13766 What 8.1 is referencing is what we are going to be donating above the compulsory donations to FACTOR via the CCD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13767 MS PINSKY: I am sorry, I didn't follow that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13768 This is above the $25,200 to FACTOR?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13769 MR. HARMER: Yes, it is above the basic FACTOR contribution. It is the $126,000. That is the additional "Other" and the additional FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13770 MS PINSKY: I'm sorry. What is the difference there compared to the $150,000 that you were talking about this morning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13771 MR. HARMER: Our basic plan for the CCD over seven years is, roughly, $150,000. It is actually slightly more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13772 The split between the $126,000 and the $25,000, those two together equal that $150,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13773 So the $126,000 is only the additional FACTOR and the additional "Other". That doesn't include the basic FACTOR. The basic FACTOR is the $25,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13774 MS PINSKY: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13775 With regard to the commitments that you made to file various information, firstly, you are going to file the amount of unstructured spoken word, and also a chart confirming the amounts of spoken word broken down, as you discussed with Commissioner Cugini.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13776 When would you be in a position to file that information?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13777 MR. SUNNER: We will be able to do that in a couple of days, I would say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13778 MS PINSKY: Could you provide that by the end of the day tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13779 MR. SUNNER: By the end of the day tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13780 MS PINSKY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13781 MR. SUNNER: That will be done.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13782 MS PINSKY: Secondly, you have committed to filing some additional letters with regard to your CCD commitments. When do you think you would be in a position to provide those?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13783 MR. HARMER: A couple of days would be great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13784 MS PINSKY: We could have those a bit later, if you want.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13785 MR. HARMER: I would appreciate that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13786 MS PINSKY: By Monday, at the end of the day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13787 Would that be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13788 MR. HARMER: Sure. We will endeavour to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13789 MS PINSKY: Okay. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13790 MR. HARMER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Sunner and your team, this is your opportunity for a two‑minute pitch on why you feel you should be licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13792 MR. SUNNER: One of the main reasons why we should be licensed is the people that the Commissioners and Madam Chair are looking at. They have a lot of passion, dedication, and they are very, very committed to Canadian content, music and artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13793 They are also a multi‑mix of nationalities. It is one of the most joyful things about being Canadian in a city as big as Vancouver, having to establish that kind of communication.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13794 That is one of the reasons that, if granted, SKY 104 FM ‑‑ this team ‑‑ will really start to deliver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13795 The music ‑‑ it brings diversity to the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13796 Revenue ‑‑ radio stations show lots of revenue. This radio station has enough financing now to really stand up over the next three years and maintain and get really established in this city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13797 Our CCD plans will go far and beyond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13798 We are responsible. We have a desire, and we are definitely committed to Canadian talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13799 We also know that there is a void in this market space, and given the opportunity, you will really get a true world‑Vancouver sound that will go international.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13800 As a matter of fact, just a few days ago I got a phone call from Bollywood in Mombay, where, working in the movie business, as well, there is interest in making a radio movie about world urban sounds. They have chosen Indian Lion to represent the SKY team in a format that will be shot here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13801 If granted the licence, SKY 104 FM will take Canadian radio internationally in more than one way, because we have so many routes to go. We have built many passages here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13802 In Canada, at present, there is no format that can really do what SKY FM is proposing. Vancouver already has several radio stations that play and do the same type of format and promotions. We know that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13803 SKY will be a change from the normal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13804 SKY will open up markets for Canadian talent and music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13805 We are very local. We are very honest to our commitments in this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13806 If there is anyone on the team that would like to say something, please do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13807 MR. YOUNG: Just to summarize with respect to the comments that the Commission has made regarding the business case, it is a first‑time application, but I think we have evolved over the time that the application was prepared.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13808 If the Commission were to consider exercising its discretion in wanting any supplementary filings on that, it is something we would confidently do in a very simple period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13809 I am not sure if that is in the cards at this stage, but I can certainly assure you that that has now been reviewed, and from whatever standpoint we can make, the business side of the vision that we have started with is something that can be followed through confidently on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13810 Most notable is the additional financing, additional legal, accounting and professional skills in the broadcast industry locally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13811 MR. SUNNER: Thank you very much. It has been an honour and a pleasure to work with this team, and I really do, honestly, believe that, given the chance, we can maintain a radio station, and run it, and become world‑renowned and known, because Vancouver is a world‑class city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13812 There is no one in this town that really doesn't know about this application. We have worked extremely hard from the rainy days to the summertime. Hopefully the CRTC will grant us this licence. We would love to get this up and running as soon as possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13813 One more time, thank you very much, Commissioners and Madam Chair, for giving us the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13814 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13815 Mr. Young, thank you for the offer. I believe that the additional information we feel we need has already been requested by the panel. So, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13816 Mr. Sunner and your team, I thank you very much for your time and your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13817 MR. SUNNER: God bless you all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13818 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take a 20‑minute break. We will come back at 10:35. Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1011 / Suspension à 1011
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1034 / Reprise à 1034
LISTNUM 1 \l 13819 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item No. 13, an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. to move the English‑language commercial radio station CKBD Vancouver from the AM Band to the FM Band, and for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13820 Please introduce yourself and your colleagues. You will then have 30 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13821 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 13822 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13823 Good morning, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission. My name is Rick Arnish, and I am President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. partnership.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13824 We are pleased to be before you this morning to speak to you with respect to our two applications for a new FM station to service Vancouver and the Lower Mainland of British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13825 We are applying for a new FM licence on 104.1 FM, or, alternatively, an AM to FM conversion which would see us close our 600 AM Station and launch a new FM service on 100.5 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13826 This presentation will speak to both of these applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13827 Before commencing our formal presentation, I would like to introduce the panel which is appearing before you this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13828 To my right is Mr. Gerry Siemens, Vice‑President and General Manager of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group's existing Vancouver radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13829 To Gerry's right is Mr. Bill Dinicol, Vice‑President of Finance for the Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13830 To my left is Jasmin Doobay, News Director of our Pattison Kelowna radio stations, who will speak to our news and information programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13831 To Jasmin's left is Bruce Davis, who is our Vice‑President of Sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13832 In the back row we have Gord Eno, who is with our Vancouver broadcast operations, and who worked on the music and spoken word programming of the new station, and will speak to the music components of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13833 To Gord's left is Mark Rogers, our General Sales Manager in Vancouver, who can speak to our revenue forecasts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13834 To Mark's left is Tamara Stanners. Tamara has worked with us in interacting with the independent emerging artists in the music community in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13835 To Tamara's left is Chris Weafer, our legal counsel from Owen Bird here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13836 To Chris' left is Jeff Vidler of Solutions Research Group, who did the market research for us in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13837 To Jeff's left is Ann Luu, who will be the Arts and Features producer on the new station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13838 I also wish to acknowledge our entire Vancouver radio team that has joined us in the front row this morning. It is nice to see our team here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13839 Gerry was saying earlier, "I guess the sales guys are running the radio station this morning."
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13840 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair, we are ready to begin our presentation. We will commence with a four‑minute video, which we hope will give you a good picture of Peak FM, our proposed adult, album, alternative format, which we believe is the best choice for Vancouver.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 13841 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair, the applications we have before you are extremely important for the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group. If approved, you will strengthen a western‑based, radio‑focused broadcast company which has operated in Vancouver since 1965.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13842 While independents, large groups and regional players have come and gone from the Vancouver radio market over the last 42 years, one thing that has remained constant is our shareholders' commitment to Vancouver and the Vancouver radio market, and to the growth of our radio broadcast group in western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13843 We believe, consistent with the Commission's criteria, that a new FM station for Vancouver must have the following five points: (1) provide a new format choice which adds diversity to the marketplace; (2) have strong Canadian content development initiatives and other tangible benefits that contribute to the Canadian broadcasting system; (3) be based on a solid, realistic business plan, and have the financial resources of a strong owner to ensure that commitments are met over a seven‑year licence term and beyond; (4) have minimal impact on existing players; and (5) be beneficial to the local community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13844 The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group's application addresses all of those points, the highlights of which we will discuss today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13845 The adult, album, alternative, "Triple A" format is a format not available in Vancouver, and one that many applicants in this proceeding have demonstrated will do well in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13846 The evidence is convincing that the "Triple A" format is in demand in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13847 To speak on the feel and flavour of the new Peak FM, here is Gerry Siemens.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13848 MR. SIEMENS: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13849 In studying the Vancouver market, we determined that "Triple A" represents a wide open opportunity, as currently no one station is associated with delivering this distinct format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13850 Based on our research, we developed an application for the "Triple A" format that will incorporate a wide range of current and recent music, supplemented with music from the eighties and nineties and the early half of this decade.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13851 The station will serve adults 25 to 49 years of age, with an emphasis on women 35 to 44 years of age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13852 The "Triple A" radio format is perhaps best described as a spinoff from the AOR, or album‑oriented rock format, and its roots can be traced back to the late sixties, with what was then considered underground or progressive music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13853 "Triple A" has a broad and more diverse playlist than most radio stations, and less played tracks are quite common.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13854 The music tends to be on the fringe of mainstream popular music and rock music, and is quite often acoustic‑based, with forays into alternative rock, folk, alternative country, blues, and even jazz.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13855 The Peak will place a heavy emphasis on current and recent material. Sixty percent of our music will have been released within the last two years, with the remaining 40 percent coming from the eighties, nineties and earlier part of this decade.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13856 Core artists on the new station will include Juno Award nominees such as Feist and Arcade Fire, plus Vancouver's own, The New Pornographers, along with the likes of Jack Johnson and John Mayer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13857 The licensing of such a station would create an exciting new vehicle to expose new and emerging Canadian artists, and will repatriate many listeners who have given up on conventional radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13858 We are extremely pleased to have the support of the President of Nettwerk Music Group, Rick Arboit. Nettwerk is one of Canada's leading, privately owned record labels, based in Vancouver. It oversees the careers of artists such as Avril Lavigne, Barenaked Ladies, Billy Talent and Sarah McLachlan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13859 In his letter of support, Mr. Arboit stated on behalf of Nettwerk:
"The `Triple A' format is much needed in Vancouver, along with other major cities in Canada. Our artists have found great support from the `Triple A' format in the United States. This support is translated back into Canada, where we then face less resistance to emerging artists being added at the AC and Hot AC playlists. We have a stable of great artists that would fit perfectly into the `Triple A' format, such as Tara McLean (Shaye), The Weepies, The Submarines, the Great Lake Swimmers, Uh Huh Her, Fauxliage, and D.B. Clifford, who currently, as of this letter, has the number one single in Japan."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13860 The Peak will be a music intensive station that will operate as a Group 2 licence, with a format that will be a refreshing alternative in the existing Vancouver FM stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13861 It is clear that the "Triple A" format will be a new format, which adds diversity to the Vancouver radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13862 I will now ask Jasmin Doobay to talk about our news and spoken word programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13863 MS DOOBAY: To set The Peak spoken word programming further apart from existing Vancouver stations, three long‑form programs will include "Voices Today", "Into the Arts ‑ Weekend" and "The Peak EcoZone", all part of a Sunday brunch radio magazine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13864 As well, the daily short‑form features include "Vancouver Flavours", "The Peak EcoZone ‑ Daily", "Into the Arts ‑ Daily", "Talking Rocks", and "Peak Fitness".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13865 Each of these programs will be unique to Vancouver, and will be created and produced by The Peak.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13866 We are particularly excited about our green focus, reflected in The Peak EcoZone programs and in the culture of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13867 The birthplace of Greenpeace and the headquarters of the David Suzuki Foundation, Vancouver has taken an international role in the complex and challenging area of environmental leadership.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13868 While all may not agree on the solutions, all agree that critical issues exist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13869 Evidence that we are on track with our green approach to this application was never more top of mind than last week, when the Government of B.C. introduced Canada's first ever green budget, pledging $1 billion over four years to fight climate change. This is on top of the tens of millions of dollars that B.C. Hydro will be spending in the coming years, as they work toward their mandate of reducing energy consumption in the province by 50 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13870 Our green approach to this application articulates the core values of our listeners and will constitute a unique new voice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13871 We are very appreciative of the letter of support received from the David Suzuki Foundation, as well as the Fraser Basin Council, recognizing the unique green initiatives that our application provides to the Vancouver radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13872 I will now ask Ann Luu to make a comment on The Peak's arts programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13873 MS LUU: The City of Vancouver has a dynamic and vital arts scene that receives little exposure on existing commercial radio stations. Coverage and promotion of the arts will be an integral component of The Peak.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13874 "Into the Arts" weekend edition will be a 30‑minute program that will take our listeners behind the curtain of arts and cultural events throughout the Lower Mainland, with in‑depth interviews with actors, dancers, directors, musicians and producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13875 The long‑form feature will be complemented by our daily "Into the Arts" short‑form feature, which will air 10 times during the broadcast week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13876 I will now turn the mic over to Gord Eno, to speak to some of the music programs that will air on The Peak.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13877 MR. ENO: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13878 As detailed in our supplementary brief, The Peak program schedule features a number of innovative music programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13879 "The Daily Demo", each weekday evening from 8 to 8:30, will present music demos, primarily from local emerging artists, providing their first radio exposure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13880 "Threshold", Sunday nights from 7 to 10, is a showcase for Canadian and international emerging artists. Presenting new music from a vast spectrum of "Triple A" artists, "Threshold" will have an experimental texture, exploring new ideas in music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13881 Friday nights at 9, "Acoustic Avenue" will offer The Peak listeners an hour of unplugged and roots performances.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13882 Sunday through Friday nights from 10 until midnight The Peak presents "Late Night Chill". A newly branded sub‑genre of "Triple A", "Chill" is the laid‑back side of adult, album, alternative music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13883 "Border Crossings" is a weekly, one‑hour program, featuring music that transcends the borders or parameters of established music genre descriptions. "Border Crossings" is culturally diverse world music, focusing on cutting‑edge, traditional and popular international selections. Artists, many being local, will perform Aboriginal, Cuban, Latin, Roma, Caribbean, and Bhangra music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13884 "Delhi 2 Dublin" is an excellent example of a local world fusion band blending East and West, sitar and Celtic fiddle, DJ and dance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13885 "An Hour of Evolution" will be hosted by radio students from the British Columbia Institute of Technology, and will present highlights from their weekly Evolution 107.9 programming. Airing Saturday night at 11, "An Hour of Evolution" will feature interviews, innovative music, and experimental radio programming. "An Hour of Evolution" will create an expanded voice for student radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13886 All of the special music programs will be supported by web pages, containing archived playlists, artist links and discussion groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13887 All spoken word programming, highlighted by Jasmin, Ann and myself, plus interstitial announcer dialogue, will generate 24 hours and 48 minutes, which is 19.7 percent of our weekly programming, all of which will be locally produced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13888 MR. SIEMENS: The Peak will have a mandate of new media/audience interactivity that will generate a forum for diverse opinions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13889 As filed in the supplementary brief, each of the spoken word programs and the special music programs will have corresponding web pages on The Peak website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13890 For example, the on‑air ecozone features will have corresponding web pages containing listener‑generated green tips, discussion groups, listener polls, blogs, podcasts, and extended audio of the on‑air interviews.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13891 In addition to those website features, the "Into the Arts" web pages will also include an area for listener reviews of local arts events, such as visual arts exhibits, theatre productions, and film festivals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13892 The Peak "Point of View" editorials will have a web page, too. There, Peak listeners can click to hear the daily editorial and take part in a moderated "Point of View" discussion group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13893 "The Daily Demo" will archive bio information on each of the featured emerging artists and, where available, provide audio‑on‑demand links to sample, download or purchase their music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13894 Where possible, every special music program website will offer audio‑on‑demand, archived playlists, and artist links.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13895 The keystone of The Peak website will be The Peak "Performance Project Web Pages". Promoting advanced listener interactivity, The Peak "Performance Project Web Pages" will track the project through the initial stages of the call for artists, through to the announcement of the final three Peak performers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13896 Content will include video webcasts of The Peak "Performance Concert Series", artist bios, and streaming of their songs and videos, with listeners voting for their favourite contestant online or through e‑mail and text messaging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13897 The Peak "Performance Project Pages" will utilize a number of new media concepts to offer an enhanced Canadian content development initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13898 Every opportunity to create an interactive relationship between Peak listeners and the radio station will be explored, with new media being a complementary means of communication.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13899 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I would like to highlight to you our CCD commitments, which were commented on briefly in our video presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13900 In preparing this application, we wanted to make sure that we conveyed to the Commission and the community that we take our obligation to Canadian content development very seriously. We recognize that we should be prepared to make a serious commitment if we are privileged enough to have this licence awarded to our broadcast group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13901 No other applicant in this proceeding is close to our level of CCD commitments. We have made equal levels of CCD commitments in both of our applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13902 Our commitments in our package of Canadian content development initiatives amount to $19 million over the course of the seven‑year licence term. This amount includes $12 million in direct cash contributions to support the various initiatives, and an indirect contribution of $7 million in on‑air support, as well as promotional components from other Pattison companies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13903 The plan has six parts, as detailed in our supplementary brief, each of them quite different, but all designed to:
LISTNUM 1 \l 13904 (1) benefit emerging artists, including Aboriginal emerging artists;
LISTNUM 1 \l 13905 (2) create sustainable Canadian content; and
LISTNUM 1 \l 13906 (3) be of long‑term benefit to the system as a whole.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13907 We recognize the importance of the national organization FACTOR, and have committed $2.8 million over the course of the licence term to FACTOR, with $350,000 of that amount designated for use by Aboriginal artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13908 We have committed $350,000 for the music industry Travel Assistance Program, run by MusicBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13909 We have committed $350,000 for the Save the Music Foundation, or other eligible organizations, for funding in support of music in schools.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13910 We have committed $210,000 to the Vancouver Folk Music Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13911 We have committed $3 million for the support of Aboriginal Voices Radio. AVR will speak in support of our application later in this proceeding, but suffice it to say that the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group has made the determination that this is an entity that needs to survive and thrive in the Canadian radio market to truly create an access for Aboriginal people to our broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13912 We are proud to be supporting that important initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13913 Our shareholder, Mr. Pattison, has extensive working relationships with First Nations in British Columbia, and strongly endorsed this material financial commitment to Aboriginal Voices Radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13914 Finally, we are extremely proud to be in a position to fund a unique, innovative project, designed by MusicBC to focus on support for the development of emerging artists in British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13915 We went to the experts to create this program. We asked the music industry in British Columbia the question: What do emerging artists need to get a foothold in the music industry?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13916 We were told that five areas of support are needed:
LISTNUM 1 \l 13917 (1) a solid financial footing;
LISTNUM 1 \l 13918 (2) marketing;
LISTNUM 1 \l 13919 (3) airplay;
LISTNUM 1 \l 13920 (4) tour support; and
LISTNUM 1 \l 13921 (5) solid management and a development plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13922 Our $5,290,000 commitment over the term of our licence is specifically focused on serving those five needs. Our Peak Performance Project is detailed in our supplementary brief, and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have on the proposal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13923 I should add that Mr. Bob D'Eith of MusicBC will also be appearing as a supporting intervenor. As the primary architect of this project, he can also provide you with further details.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13924 We do note that a detailed budget on the proposal is attached to our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13925 MS STANNERS: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13926 One of my roles in assisting the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group in preparing this application was to discuss The Peak Performance Project with young artists working in the Vancouver music community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13927 As demonstrated in the video, I can confirm that there is both a need for and a strong interest in this unique proposal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13928 One common comment was that it was built with artists in mind, not just the broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13929 Clearly, the thoughts of MusicBC guided the project, and there is a strongly held belief that this initiative will launch new emerging artists in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13930 There is a growing trend of decentralization of the music industry in Canada, as emerging artists in cities like Vancouver strike out on their own, independent of Toronto‑based major labels.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13931 The Peak Performance Project will create a valuable outlet for up‑and‑coming artists to further their careers. There is nothing like it in Vancouver. There is nothing like it in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13932 You have heard from artists in our video, and I can confirm that there is significant local support for this major investment in emerging Canadian talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13933 MR. ARNISH: Why license the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13934 Madam Chair, you have a large number of applicants before you in this proceeding. We are all making promises about our contributions to the community, to Canadian talent, and to the broadcast system, but to deliver on these contributions there must be a business case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13935 The Pattison Broadcast Group has a long history of running niche formats in our Vancouver operation, where we have operated our FM station in a country format for over 21 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13936 We know how to successfully launch and operate a unique format competitively in a major market. We know that we must be patient, as a new station appealing to a tightly targeted demographic takes time to find its feet. We know that, given time, this format will work. We are committed to making it work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13937 We note that in Vancouver our country music station has been named by Canada Music Week as Country Music Station of the Year for three consecutive years: 2004, 2005 and 2006. In 2007, it received the prestigious Major Market Radio Station of the Year Award at the Canadian Country Music Awards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13938 We know how to run a successful station, in a large market, in a unique format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13939 We have confidence in our ability to meet the ambitious commitments we have made. We have a solid and attainable business plan, and we have the resources of the Pattison Group of companies behind us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13940 The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group competes in the Vancouver market with one AM and one FM station against a number of national chains, each of which have two FMs but for Astral. This FM licence will solidify our position in this highly competitive radio market, enabling us to strengthen a western‑based, regional radio company, and to compete on a level playing field with the national chains serving the Vancouver market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13941 The consolidation of ownership in the broadcasting industry has made it even more important to ensure that regional players be strengthened and enabled to compete fairly and effectively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13942 We have been serving the Vancouver market for 42 years, and remain committed to the growth of our regional broadcast company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13943 Our application, if approved, will have minimal impact on existing competitors in the market, as they are all strong, national radio companies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13944 Madam Chair, the Pattison Broadcast Group keeps its promises and serves its communities. We have a core belief, as does our shareholder, that the more we serve our community, the more successful we will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13945 Collectively, the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group commits in excess of $12 million in air time and raises hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash each year in support of charitable, public and community service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13946 The numerous letters of support, indicating the commitment of our shareholder and our radio stations to the Vancouver community, are strong evidence as to how the addition of a new Jim Pattison Broadcast Group FM station in Vancouver will benefit the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13947 We quote from the letter from Mr. Bob Stewart, President of Variety ‑ The Children's Charity, one of the major charities in British Columbia which states:
"I am a long time Vancouver resident and in my 37‑year career as a Vancouver police officer, 10 of those as chief of police, I am aware of the need for quality broadcasting at all levels. The Pattison Broadcast Group under the direction of Jim Pattison has a very positive reputation in this city and are respected corporate citizens. As the current volunteer president of Variety ‑ The Children's Charity, I am also very much aware of Mr. Pattison's philanthropy locally and around the world." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 13948 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair, the Pattison Broadcast Group believes this application if approved would be the best utilization of the 104.1 FM, or alternatively the 100.5 FM frequency, and submits that approval is therefore in the public interest and in furtherance of the objectives of the Broadcasting Inc. Approval will:
LISTNUM 1 \l 13949 (1) Enable a B.C.‑based broadcast company to level the playing field in the very competitive Vancouver market by providing a second FM licence. This would put our broadcast group in a competitive position with the other companies holding two FM frequencies in Vancouver, Rogers, Corus and CHUM/CTV. All conventional FM services in Canada, save for our own, are owned by companies based in central Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13950 (2) Result in $12 million in direct benefits targeted primarily to emerging artists and Aboriginal Voices Radio; $9 million in direct benefit contribution to the development and exposure of emerging artists and $3 million will be contributed to Aboriginal Voices Radio to assist in ensuring that this important service is sustainable. A further $7 million in indirect benefits will be provided over the licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13951 (3) Add a new triple‑A FM format to the market which will air 40 percent Canadian content and 10 percent emerging artists content, a new format adding diversity to the market which will embrace new and emerging artists unlike any existing format in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13952 (4) Create new jobs in the broadcast industry in Vancouver and;
LISTNUM 1 \l 13953 (5) Provide 24 hours and 48 minutes weekly of new, innovative spoken word programming in the market from a locally‑owned company. A Vancouver‑based editorial voice will be created.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13954 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we would like to leave you with a sound bite of the PEAK before closing our presentation.
‑‑‑ Audio presentation / présentation audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 13955 MR. ARNISH: Madam Chair, that sound bite was 40 percent Canadian content with 10 percent emerging artists and we are excited by the new sound that we can add to Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13956 The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group has been meeting or exceeding its obligations under the Broadcasting Act for over 40 years. We hope the Commission will grant us the opportunity to meet and exceed the commitments set out above and enable us to compete more effectively in the Vancouver market with a new and exciting station, the PEAK.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13957 Thank you, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff. We look forward to responding to your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish and the panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13959 And Commissioner Menzies will lead the questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13960 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13961 Right off the top, just to establish for the record the terms of the conversation, I think it would be most efficient if we agree, as you have indicated in your presentation, that unless either of us stipulates otherwise, all our questions and answers are dealing with both applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13962 MR. ARNISH: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13963 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13964 Now, you have set aside four hours and 21 minutes for news. What isn't clear and what we would like to clarify is the percentage of that that will be dedicated to local news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13965 MR. ARNISH: I will have Ms Doobay respond to that in just a moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13966 Our plans for spoken word content here in Vancouver, not only from the news and information side but certainly from the programming side we find very exciting. And we think it's going to add a huge, diverse new opportunity for our station if we are licensed here in Vancouver to bring new, diverse programming to the FM channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13967 With our commitments that we have talked about in our presentation, and you have it in our application, this new station that we are proposing here in Vancouver would have the most spoken word content of any and we are excited about that and we believe that it's going to bring a diverse new voice to the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13968 Jasmin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13969 MS DOOBAY: I think it's fair to say that in any newscast it fluctuates in terms of how much local content is in there. You could easily have a newscast with 100 percent local content if you have a situation like the federal budget coming down and you are looking for local politician comment and then you throw in a little bit of sports with the Vancouver Canucks or the B.C. Lions and the Vancouver Giants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13970 But I would say as an average we would be looking at 80 percent per newscast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13971 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, that's what I needed, was something typical in terms of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13972 So you would be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13973 MS DOOBAY: I would say on average 80 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13974 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: On average?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13975 MS DOOBAY: Yes, but that does fluctuate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13976 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Did you want to put a number on that or are you just happy with that? Did you want to commit to something on that or do you need the flexibility?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13977 MR. ARNISH: Well, I will jump into the conversation on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13978 All of our radio newsrooms in British Columbia and Alberta, Commissioner Menzies, have a mandate to provide local content. Local content is also national and regional content or it could be world content as well, where we put a ‑‑ where we always put a local angle to that story. There could be something happening in central Canada or somewhere in the United States and there is always a local angle to that, and we are very committed to ensuring that the newscast for the most part is 100 percent local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13979 But as Jasmin just said, sometimes it fluctuates but we feel very confident that our local news content here in Vancouver and with our other stations could be at that 80 percent mark.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13980 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sure. I am not asking you to handcuff yourself. I was just trying to ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13981 MR. ARNISH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13982 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ get the answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13983 One of the things that we need to clarify for the record is to what extent the new station would benefit from synergies with your other properties here in B.C., including the two in Vancouver. Can you break that down for us in terms of, for instance in content, in news, in administration?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13984 MS DOOBAY: If we are looking specifically at news content or the spoken word content as a start, we do have ‑‑ we do have stations in 11 communities in British Columbia. And as news director in the Okanogan and Kelowna we have an opportunity to share information with our other stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13985 And so in a situation this year where avalanches were very predominant in Vancouver and into the central interior and one of our major arteries got cut off for a considerable amount of time, the Coquihalla Highway, or situations where we had at our local ski hill in Big White an avalanche which caused a fatality. We know that there are hundreds of students from Vancouver and Prince George and Kamloops, busloads of them that come up to Big White and all those families around the rest of the province want to know who was that fatality and where was it from?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13986 Well, our Kelowna news station, for example, would have the opportunity to get that information first. Once we found out, the community immediately via email or phone get that information to the community that needed that information. So in a crisis situation of news there is a sharing opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13987 But each of the stations is locally staffed. The news rooms are locally staffed and you focus on your local community because that's what the community wants to hear. So the Vancouver station would be locally staffed, but the opportunity to reach out to the other communities and get firsthand information when necessary is absolutely there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13988 MR. SIEMENS: As to the synergies in Vancouver, of course, we already operate an AM and an FM station in the market. So the infrastructure is already in place to run two radio stations and the staff is in place and all of the systems are in place. So those are obvious synergies whether we were granted the conversion, in which case we would add eight new employees, or we were granted the new licence in which case we would have to add significantly more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13989 But the synergies are in place, and what is also in place and which have a positive impact on the new licence is a very stable and very successful sales team. Mr. Rogers has been our general sales manager for nine years. He has a group of true professionals. I don't think we have had a change in our sales department in over four years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13990 And so what comes with that is very, very productive relationships with our clients. They know us, they trust us, they like us and they have indicated they will support the new radio station. And so those are very real synergies that will be applied with the new PEAK.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13991 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13992 I am going to try to do this without confusing all of us, but I just want to go through the CCD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13993 You mentioned in your presentation, you mentioned the number $19 million, but I just want to confirm $7 million of that is soft costs and not a condition of licence commitment. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13994 MR. ARNISH: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13995 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And of the ‑‑ oh, one other thing. I just want to confirm that the $3 million contribution to Aboriginal Voices Radio applies to both the applications?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13996 MR. ARNISH: Yes, it does, absolutely. We are very excited about that opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13997 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Now, of the remaining $12 million, we were talking about the $3 million for Aboriginal Voices Radio plus $9 million which is categorized on your financial projections and assumptions as Canadian content development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13998 I guess what I'm trying to establish is ‑‑ can you confirm for us that on this sheet under ‑‑ that the $3 million for Aboriginal Voices Radio is categorized on your financial projections under "Other" EE initiatives?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13999 MR. ARNISH: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14000 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14001 And is that then excluded or included in a condition of licence commitment to Canadian content development? So are we talking about a $12 million CCD condition of licence commitment or is it a $9 million plus the $3 outside?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14002 MR. ARNISH: No, we wanted to make sure that we broke out at the end of the day the $3 million commitment to AVR so that the Commission understood what we were trying to accomplish. But we have committed to $12 million in direct CCD benefits which includes the $3 million to Aboriginal Voices Radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14003 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14004 And again, I just need to confirm for the record that this contribution, $12 million, applies to both the FM application and the flip?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14005 MR. ARNISH: That is correct, Mr. Menzies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14006 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14007 And you will accept that as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14008 MR. ARNISH: We sure will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14009 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: The next item is concerning the Save the Music Foundation. The Commission's new CCD eligibility criteria are pretty specific in that the emphasis needs to be on the "support, training, promotion and development of Canadian musical talent".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14010 Can you detail for us how the money to the Save the Music Foundation will ensure that all of this money will flow through to the schools for those purposes as detailed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14011 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14012 We were very excited a couple of years ago in Calgary when we appeared in front of the Commission for Calgary to establish what we believed was a new Canadian content initiative at the time, the Save the Music Foundation. We don't have as much money in the funds at this point in time. We hope through this application and other applications as well to continue to grow this portion of our CCD commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14013 What we do in marketplaces and what we would do here in Vancouver, the $350,000 that we are talking about, we would certainly go out to the elementary and secondary schools in the Greater Vancouver Metro market and assure them and let them know that this money is available for the purchase of musical instruments or, in the cases of high schools, it may be that they would bring in a seminar conductor of some sort to conduct a weekend seminar for a high school band or a choral group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14014 And we detail all of our initiatives at the end of the year with our financial statements going back to the Commission and we think that this $350,000 commitment for the PEAK in Vancouver will certainly go a long way in helping the secondary or elementary school band and music programs in this province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14015 Gerry, do you want to add any more?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14016 MR. SIEMENS: Just that the foundation has already been active with some of the acquisitions on Vancouver Island and we have been working with the schools in Nanaimo and in Victoria and other places on Vancouver Island. So it is already in place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14017 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So the answer is "yes"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14018 MR. ARNISH: The answer is yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14019 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14020 In your oral presentation I noted that around the Save the Music Foundation you said:
"We have committed $350,000 for the Save the Music Foundation or other eligible organizations for funding and support of music or schools." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14021 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Is that just to confuse me or is it ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14022 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ I should know about that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14023 MR. ARNISH: Well, we talked about that leading up to our presentation today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14024 We just want to ensure that we are not offside on anything related to CCD. We have a belief in the Save the Music Foundation even though it has not been ‑‑ it is not formalized per se, but at the end of the day if the Commission deemed that you wanted us to take that $350,000 and put it into another CCD initiative we would certainly do that as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14025 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, that's what I was assuming, that you were giving yourself some flexibility there if required.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14026 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14027 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14028 Now, for the record do you benefit, does your organization, your company benefit in any way, for example by reduced administration fees by choosing the Save the Music Foundation as the source of CCD contributions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14029 MR. ARNISH: No, none whatsoever. We don't have ‑‑ we virtually have no administration charges charged to that. All the money flows out. If we commit the $350,000 for the PEAK in this case, the entire $350,000 will be spent in the Greater Vancouver market area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14030 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14031 Would you be able to give us a budget breakdown on the ‑‑ I think it's ‑‑ on the amount you intend to contribute to the Save the Music Foundation as to where it goes exactly? I mean, I don't need it right now but for the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14032 MR. ARNISH: We sure could. We just need to know a date and I guess we could provide that by Friday if that's ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14033 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: You could probably touch base with legal after ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14034 MR. ARNISH: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14035 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ and arrange whatever is required.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14036 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14037 MR. ARNISH: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14038 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. I think that got rid of most of the icky details.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14039 MR. WEAFER: Commissioner Menzies, just to be clear on the request, the fund that is created as the Save the Music Foundation is intended to work ‑‑ it is basically to specifically go to schools that have a requirement for instruments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14040 We understand the description in the Radio Policy was to restrict what was eligible for CCD. So in terms of the budget amount we would not be able to identify specific schools that may receive those funds. What we will be committing to is over the course of the licence term, we would be assuring the Commission that that's where the money would be going specifically to schools in need that made a request in the market. So I just want to make sure we can respond to the request.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14041 But at this point in time, looking forward over the next seven years ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14042 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I understand that you can't tell me who is getting what six years from now. So I am not asking for that. I am just asking for an overall budget flow that shows how much of the $350,000 is going for exactly what. And if it's 100 percent is going in there, then that answers the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14043 MR. WEAFER: Thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14044 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14045 Now, regarding the Triple A application there are four others who have outlined that as their format for the area. So I need you to expand a little bit beyond your presentation in terms of specifically how it addresses our desire to ensure there is as much diversity as possible serving the public interest in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14046 What is it that makes you different from the other applicants specifically?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14047 MR. SIEMENS: Okay, thank you, Commissioner Menzies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14048 I certainly understand why you would ask the question, because by the very definition Triple A is rather an elastic format. It can lean in some markets towards a modern rock station. Another market may have a Triple A station that leans more towards hot AC, or it can be any number of variations in between that and I guess largely depends on the needs of the market that the station is operating in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14049 Our station, the PEAK will have rock at its core but will lean slightly towards a softer, more acoustic sound in its nature. Emerging artists will certainly be an essential part of the music mix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14050 And I would like to correct a comment that was made yesterday. A minimum of 10 percent emerging artists is in our application and is a condition of licence. That commitment is based on our own attempts to define what an emerging artist is. That definition ‑‑ in our application we defined an emerging artist as an artist with at least ‑‑ with one year ‑‑ within one year of cracking the Top 40 for the very first time. And we recognize that that definition is subject to change.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14051 Commissioner Menzies, I personally sit on the CAB music issues subcommittee and we are continuing to try and develop a consensus on what constitutes an emerging artist that will eventually be admitted to ‑‑ submitted to the CRTC as an opinion. Our next conference call is tomorrow but the most definite ‑‑ recent definition I saw was an artist that was within four years of their first exposure inside the Top 40. So if that definition were to be eventually adopted obviously our quota of emerging artists would be much higher.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14052 Getting back to the format, Triple A is an explorative format in nature. I think good Triple A programmers are able to recognize songs with hit potential long before they gain widespread popularity. Some examples:
LISTNUM 1 \l 14053 KT Tunstall, the song Black Horse and a Cherry Tree, a major song in Triple A radio almost a year before it broke on hot AC and AC charts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14054 The Plain White T's, the song Hey There Delilah, pretty much the same story, a major Triple A song in 2007 and eventually went on to become one of the biggest hits in all of pop music in 2007.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14055 The success of Leslie Feist has been mentioned several times this week but it bears repeating that her first album was a brilliant piece of work; Mushaboom, a major hit in Triple A radio and yet received virtually no airplay in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14056 Amy Winehouse, Rehab; now a major, major hit in North America. Triple A stations in the U.S. were playing that song almost a full year before it crossed over to CHR and hot AC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14057 So I mention all of that to say this. When we built our playlist for this application eight months ago less than 10 percent of the playlist that was in the application was receiving any airplay in Vancouver. So after comments were made about our application earlier this week we tested our playlist again against what is being played in Vancouver this week, and we learned that even after eight months since the list was made, and after several of the songs had established themselves as bona fide hits, only 25 percent of our submitted playlist was receiving any airplay in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14058 So you know, with the tools that we have in our hands in the broadcast industry today such as BDS and MediaBase, anybody can identify 150 songs that nobody is playing and say, "Well, look at this. How diverse are we?" But will anybody listen to it? We think the answer is not many.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14059 We believe there has to be some degree of familiarity for the listeners to feel comfortable and that's what the PEAK accomplishes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14060 As to your question as to how we compare to the other Triple A applicants, the application for Planet FM contains 30 percent Category 3 music and that differentiation alone makes our application distinctly different from theirs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14061 JANE FM would be built not so much to appeal to women as it would be almost exclusively for women, whereas our research confirmed that the station would skew towards a female audience but our gender split of 56 percent women and 44 percent men, we can still be true to our core target without totally alienating younger women and men who have musical tastes that are a bit more adventurous.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14062 And finally, with regard to SHORE FM we think our application is musically quite similar to theirs. That having been said, our application wasn't written from a textbook. What we did was build an application that is textbook Vancouver. And I think what sets the PEAK further apart from their application are the distinct and unique music‑based programs that allow us to go deeper into the music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14063 And I will ask Mr. Eno to describe those to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14064 MR. ENO: That is one of the aspects of the Triple A format and how we interpret it that makes us very excited about what we have put forward; special programs, special word ‑‑ spoken programming and music programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14065 And I will ask Jasmin to expand on some of the specifics of the spoken word programming such as the EcoZone and Into the Arts and Point of View programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14066 And also Jeff may want to add some thoughts on how the research that we conducted provided direction on the programming decisions that we made to build this radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14067 And our evolution is we have a close relationship with the radio programmer at BCIT. In fact, two of our staff members, including myself, are on the advisory committee and I am the chair of that committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14068 We have a close relationship in developing future broadcasters in B.C. and we are very interested in what they do at BCIT on Evolution 107.9. And we had the idea to give the students the opportunity to try some new concepts in broadcasting and provide wider exposure for their programming on the PEAK which would offer an expanded voice for student radio in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14069 Border Crossings is Sunday mornings. It's 11 a.m. It's not too early and not too late. It seems to be about the right time for that program. It is 60 minutes of what could be described as what everybody calls world music. But we also want to explore the cutting edge of world music. Fusion music is something that is evolving, very interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14070 The music ‑‑ our listeners we have found are more ‑‑ they are slightly more educated and more interested in exploring new thoughts and new ideas and music comes into that. And the explosion of world music, the expansion of the evolution of world music and being popular that would make it a good program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14071 Late Nite Chill is a program that's late night and that's the chill program. Chill is a new subgenre of Triple A. It is the sort of laidback aspect of Triple A but it doesn't really describe itself just as chill. It's more ‑‑ it's stretched. As Gerry said, the format is elastic and we stretch it here with more soft acoustical and, for want of a better word, contemplative music for Late Nite Chill.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14072 Acoustic Avenue, Friday night at nine, good place for that one too. The PEAK becomes unplugged. It's where the Be Good Tanyas would find extra play, the Vancouver group ‑‑ roots, folk, old country, but not necessarily all stringed acoustic music. Woodwind acoustic would fit in here too and there is some experimental stuff that we could accomplish with that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14073 Thresholds, again more stretching and find where the threshold of Triple A is, and try and stretch beyond that. That's where you will hear music never heard on the mainstream stations and you might not even expect to hear on the PEAK.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14074 Daily Demo is one of the highlights of the music programs and I think it makes us very distinct. It follows the concept of Triple A and the experiment and the emerging aspect of it. It's using the concept of artists getting their demos heard, except this is where everyone can hear it. It's on the air every night.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14075 Emerging Artists, lots of local artists is the goal. This could be the first step for a lot of careers and ties in nicely with the PEAK Performance project. And for PEAK listeners who love to discover new music and new artists this is their daily fix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14076 As far as spoken word programs, Jasmin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14077 MS DOOBAY: From as little as two hours and 45 minutes of news for some applicants to seven hours and 30, we feel that the PEAK's four hours and 21 minutes of core news programming equally spread through the week, including the weekends which is a key time that people would be listening to our radio station, we feel is a good balance. We also have the most spoken word content provided in this radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14078 Of the four applications for Triple A only two are ‑‑ as I can see or determine from the different applications ‑‑ only two are providing straight editorial voice comment and the PEAK application is providing the most at 20 minutes per week. And that's not just one person repeated five days a week. That's five to six to seven different alternating editorialists from the local market providing content and providing an opportunity for our listeners to interact with the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14079 We have the most of short term features provided, short form features with two hours and 31 minutes per week of any of the applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14080 Long features ‑‑ our short form features we like to think of as the spice to the day, adding a little bit of information and the who, what, when and where that would lead to in say the PEAK EcoZone and Into the Arts. That would lead to the why and how that we could go into more detail with our long form programming on the weekends. And our long form features running Sunday morning, you get up in the morning and you have your coffee and you sit down and you listen for a little bit more detail before you start your day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14081 And again, as Gord mentioned, we have a considerable amount of spoken word in and amongst our music programming as well. So we truly feel that our 24 hours and 48 minutes of spoken word is interwoven with our music to create a great environment for this listener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14082 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14083 MR. VIDLER: A key point that I ‑‑ a key point that I can probably speak to just in terms of this is that PEAK's Triple A format was tailored specifically to the Vancouver market. Having done the research and by giving them the opportunity to focus on a single format in the research we are able to include a number of questions in the research to establish not only the size and nature of the Triple A audience in Vancouver but also the music and spoken word preferences that would please the Vancouver Triple A listener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14084 For example, to those respondents who expressed an interest in the Triple A format, we played nine music montages that represented the wide range of styles that we have heard discussed as being part of the intrinsic part of Triple A and it is these preferences, Vancouver preferences, that have been reflected in the Pattison application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14085 And the research was part of that process to make sure that this was a Triple A format tailored to the Vancouver marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14086 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14087 You mentioned that this would ‑‑ your format provided more time for listeners to interact with the station. Can you just flesh that out just a little bit for me in terms of its interactivity?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14088 MS DOOBAY: If we looked, for example at the PEAK Point of View, which is our editorial comment, we would be posting those editorial comments on the web on our website and allow a moderated discussion to ensue. And when you throw an opinion out there you often get one back and there would be an opportunity for our listeners to provide a voice on the radio station, or we would give them an opportunity to provide a counter voice to an editorial that they heard. Of course, it would be vetted.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14089 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14090 The last couple of days we heard quite a bit about Vancouver overall ‑‑ we heard a criticism anyway, I can't say we heard it a lot, but we did hear it ‑‑ about Vancouver being, the Vancouver market in terms of existing radio stations being somewhat risk intolerant in the views of some.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14091 And I was interested in getting your perceptions, a reaction to that critique and doing so within the context of helping me understand how this format and this application perhaps represents or doesn't represent a change in that reputation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14092 First of all, you'd have to agree that the criticism had some validity to it, which you're quite entitled to disagree with; and, secondly, how does this application bring new opportunities to the marketplace?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14093 MR. ARNISH: Well, I'll start and then Mr. Siemens can jump in in this as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14094 As we stated earlier, we've been in the country music format in Vancouver for 21 years and counting and on our AM station, AM 600, we've been in the format of adult standards now for approximately 10 years and that took a lot of soul searching and a lot of heavy thinking on our behalf to get out of the Christian music format that the station was in 10 years ago and move to adult standards. We knew there was going to be a lot of risk there as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14095 The station ‑‑ our team there has done a great job in the adult standards format, it's a very niche format, we know how to run that, and I think the same thing can be said our Triple A format for the PEAK here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14096 We know it's not going to be a totally populaced format like CHR or Classic Rock or Classic Hits, whatever the case may be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14097 We're not expecting, as you can tell by our business plan going forward, that we're going to start out with a five share. I mean, we've looked at the market, we know the market, we live in the market, we're projecting a two share at the very beginning and then it's going to flatten out over the seven‑year licence term to a five share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14098 And it is a niche format and we're going to really have to work at it to make it successful, but we've done that before with both of the formats that we're currently in now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14099 Jerry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14100 MR. SIEMENS: I think that the new radio station, the PEAK, will be quite adventurous musically, I think it will be quite adventurous from a spoken word point of view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14101 The commitment we've made, and I'm going to ask Mr. Eno to identify some of the artists that would support that comment in just a moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14102 But our commitment to the environment, our commitment to the green quota that we've set in our spoken word can be quite controversial. So, I think that opens us up to lots of controversy because, while we all agree that something has to be done, we don't all agree what, we don't all agree how and when. And, so, I think that that's going to be an adventure for us and we're looking forward to being educated by our listeners and by our clients and hoping to be somewhat reciprocal in the process and I think it's going to be very exciting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14103 Getting back to the music though, Gord, can you help Commissioner Menzies understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14104 MR. ENO: What will make this a unique radio station in this market is that it's a new music station. Not all are new music stations in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14105 For instance, we are at a 60 per cent/40 per cent new to Gold projected for this radio station which puts us second in the market for playing new music behind the BEAT which plays a lot of new music and, interestingly enough, just ahead of JRFM which is another new music radio station in town.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14106 And, conversely, as far as Gold‑based radio stations go, it would again be second in that on the lower end of the scale.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14107 So, that's a fresh sound and lots of new artists, local artists: Monica Lee Band, Winston, Jenny Galt. It's like ‑‑ to mainstream radio there's an underground movement to the new music scene that may not be aware to a lot of people, but once you dig into it and once you're part of that music scene, you understand that there are an awful lot of bands out there and artists that are not getting airplay, that are just on the verge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14108 They have the talent, they have everything they need, but they're just not getting the airplay. And that would be one of the goals of the radio station, of the PEAK, to expose some of these artists and to give them a break through the daily demo and through the PEAK performance project.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14109 I think that there's a certain amount of adventurous concepts going on with how we would pick the music. And, again, the spoken word makes it unique as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14110 The Into The Arts Program is a 30‑minute program that explores the arts and I don't believe there's another commercial radio station in this town, or possibly in the country, that I know of that has a passion for exposing their audience to new ideas in theatre and visual arts and performing arts. I think that's another aspect of how we stand apart and would be different from other radio stations and take some risks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14111 MR. SIEMENS: Commissioner Menzies, I think that to go to the spirit of taking risks, we are very excited about our PEAK performance project and the emerging artists that that will introduce us to and they're going to open our eyes wide open.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14112 And I'm going to talk about that just a little bit. I'm going to ask Ms Stanners in a second to speak to some of the artists that she met when she was out on the street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14113 But when we developed the PEAK performance project, we went to the music industry and we said, "Help us out here. What do you really need? What does the music industry need to help develop emerging artists?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 14114 We talked to Bob D'Eith at Music B.C. who's going to be here later this week at length, in fact, he ultimately designed the program. We talked to Ric Arboit at Nettwerk Music, we talked to Jonathan Simkin at 604 Records, we talked to Michael Burke at Cordova Bay Records who's also going to be here later this week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14115 And what we learned is that the artists need really ‑‑ they need support financially, of course, they need management. I mean, we've got a bunch of independent artists out there, because the music industry is upside down and has been for some time now, that's not news, but what has happened along the way is the music companies have moved away from the A&R department, so they're just not looking for new artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14116 So, virtually all of the artists that are coming up right now are independent and what that means is that they have to sign their own contracts, write their own websites, they have to do their own travel plans, they have to book their own tours and they're just ‑‑ a lot of them are just ‑‑ they're musicians and they're just not set up to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14117 So, Tamara, maybe you could talk a little bit about the PEAK performance project and how it was received by these emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14118 MS STANNERS: I can tell you they're thrilled, that they're really excited to have an opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14119 Over the past couple of years, just because I am super passionate about music, I started working with several different local bands just to try and help them break into the radio market, knowing that it was an integral part of their careers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14120 Unfortunately for them there was nothing in Vancouver and they all wanted to start local, of course, that could even come close to hearing their music because it didn't fit the formats which really are tight when you have a Top 40 format or an adult contemporary format, it doesn't allow for a whole lot of experimentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14121 So, they were really excited to hear that not only was there going to be a station that could play their music, but one that would really actively help them get their music heard, and not just with the station, but also with our website which we will definitely be showcasing all of these talents with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14122 One of the men I talked to, Dan Mangan, he wanted to be here so badly but he's in Australia, he's on tour there where he does actually get radio airplay, and he had all but given up on Vancouver radio until he heard about the PEAK performance project and about the PEAK radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14123 So, what they need, as Jerry mentioned, when they are responsible for their websites and their marketing and their tour schedule and arranging the recording and trying to song write somewhere in there, is they need financial support and also knowledge about the business. And we are so prepared to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14124 And one of the funny stories I heard was from Sweatshop Union who were getting ready to do their tour. They get some airplay in the States, so they were going on a California/Colorado ski resort tour and I asked them what it was going to be like, we're going to have the big, you know, zwanky bus to go on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14125 And, in fact, they told me that they were renting a Suburban for the eight members of Sweatshop Union, their gear and their merchandise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14126 So, the eight of them were going on tour in that and they were going to be very close for several months.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14127 And that has some benefits, I mean, you know, in forming relationships I'm sure, but it was also a very ‑‑ I could tell that they were sceptical as to whether or not they were going to make it through the trip. They did, they're fine, and they are still together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14128 But I can tell you that all of the artists I spoke with ‑‑ and there are so many ‑‑ are very, very excited about the opportunity that the PEAK performance project will allow them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14129 MR. SIEMENS: But it's also going to be a broadening experience ‑‑ and I'm sorry that we're going on a bit, but I will finish in just a second ‑‑ but it's going to be a broadening experience because they are going to encourage us to take risks with their music when they bring it to the PEAK performance project and when it gets on the air. So, we're excited about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14130 And just as an aside, we also have in our application $350,000 for Music B.C.'s MITAP, Music Industry Travel Assistance Plan. So, if we're licensed, hopefully Sweatshop Union won't have to go in the Suburban any more.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14131 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14132 I just had a quick question for Ms Luu who had mentioned about the arts and I was just looking for a little bit of information really. It's one of the items that you presented as being unique.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14133 Why, in your view, are the arts generally not covered elsewhere? I find when you go to these things everybody talks about a vibrant arts community, cities sell themselves on a vibrant arts community on how exciting it is and then you hear that nobody covers it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14134 MS LUU: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14135 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And it doesn't make sense to me, and I want to hear your perceptions on that and perhaps explain to me whether this is a commercial opportunity or a community opportunity, in your view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14136 MS LUU: I think it's both. I honestly don't know why it's not covered, mostly probably because most commercial radio stations don't have a large spoken word component and I think the PEAK will be one of the first to have the 24 hours of spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14137 And when I went into the arts community and spoke to various people in there, they were very excited about this because, you know, due to the lack of funding that they have they cannot market themselves, they cannot, you know, promote themselves and very seldom do they have a week‑long festival or a week‑long performance. So, it's usually one or two days.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14138 So, what we want to do with our Into the Arts Program is just to create awareness for our listeners and say, "Hey, you know, after the Vancouver International Film Festival there is a Vancouver Latin American Film Festival. Did you know about that? And did you know that, you know, it's a Mexican immigrant who founded it after 10 years of, you know, being here and being passionate about it, bringing in directors and films from Cuba and Brazil?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 14139 That is actually happening in our community and we just want to put audience members into the seats where usually, you know, they might be half empty because there is not that promotion there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14140 And we also want to create a diversity. You know, lots of people think that it's hard to understand the arts, whether it's ballet or just paintings, and we want to let people know art is a universal language. So, what I take from it, I could laugh at a performance, you could cry at it. So, it's a diverse understanding and it's a diverse situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14141 So, we want to do that and bring that forward, and it will be a commercial opportunity because no other commercial station right now in Vancouver has that and I think it's mainly due to the fact that their spoken word program is quite limited.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14142 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14143 I have a couple more technical questions here for you in terms of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14144 Your revenue projections indicate growth of 14 per cent between years four and seven, while your market share growth is forecast at three per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14145 Can you help us understand what is happening, or what you expect to happen in the market that gives you confidence that that's an accurate forecast, given that those are post‑Olympic years and often aren't as exciting as people think they might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14146 MR. ARNISH: Very well put, and I'll ask Mr. Davis and Mr. Rogers to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14147 There's a lot of optimism though in British Columbia post‑Olympics. The B.C. Economic Council came out just about four weeks ago and said that they project after 2010 that the British Columbia economy, due to the Asia Pacific opportunities that British Columbia has with commodities, the economy here in British Columbia and particularly in this area of British Columbia and into the interior is going to continue to be very, very strong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14148 Now, in response to our business plans, as I talked earlier, we've been in niche formats here in Vancouver for a very, very long period of time, we know the marketplace, we live in the marketplace and we certainly built our business plan around the knowledge of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14149 So, with that I'll turn it over to Bruce and Mark.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14150 MR. DAVIS: Sure, thanks, Rick.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14151 Commissioner Menzies, you see with our business plan that we look at a five share down the road and come in with a two share to begin with. We realize that it is going to be hard to start to ramp this thing up, it's going to take a lot of hard work and we know we're going to start at the bottom and work our way up through it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14152 Given that we also will be looking at maybe another competitor coming into town, we're dealing with a signal that isn't perfect, if you will, so our starting point is maybe lower than the other ones, but we know that once we get our feet underneath us we can really start to ramp this up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14153 Again, we've done this in niche formats many times. We've been selling in the Vancouver market for four decades and, like Rick said, none of those formats have been what you would call mainstream. So, we're very good at start‑up applications and getting niche formats going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14154 And I'll get Mark to shed some more light and elaborate on how we do that through our sales departments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14155 Mark.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14156 MR. ROGERS: Thanks, Bruce.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14157 The short answer is it's really just a lot of hard work by skilled professional people who are here in the market and sell radio in the market professionally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14158 In the last nine years of my 33‑year career of selling radio time and 25 years of ‑‑ 26 years of sales management in radio, it's just ‑‑ market after market, it just simply becomes absolutely pivotal that your sales department sells local business, belly‑to‑belly, local businesses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14159 In fact, 60 per cent of our FM current business in Vancouver is local business, local direct and over 80 per cent of AM business is local direct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14160 In a specialized format or niche format you don't always have the ratings and the books for agencies or large regional advertisers that are going to be terribly attracted to, so you have to be able to do it at a local level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14161 Our sales department ‑‑ and this makes us sound like we're all old, but we're really not ‑‑ our sales department has over 200 years of professional radio sales experience, but there are ‑‑ there's 11 of us, so it's not really that bad.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14162 We have a highly skilled sales department, local sales department, they are deeply experienced, they live in the market, they see themselves as local business people, as do our local businesses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14163 We've also made great efforts to train our promotion department and our creative services departments so that they become really good at understanding what local business does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14164 We understand that being in specialized formats that we have to knock on doors. Especially in a start‑up situation, we know that it's going to take time, we understand that, and that agencies or large regionals, you know, they just don't have an appetite for sign‑on stations, they just need a book or two or three or four to see where the station's really going to go. So, we know it takes time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14165 But we do believe that advertisers will find a fresh audience with the PEAK and we believe that this audience will be an environmentally conscious audience and like‑minded companies, or mandated Crown corporations or, in fact, government will find that they want to associate with and attract and speak with, communicate with this audience and they'll have ample opportunity to do that through the PEAK.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14166 In the music industry, and this station really is about the music and entertainment and the community, in speaking with large show production companies, promoters, we've been told that they can fairly routinely sell hundreds, if not thousands of tickets to live events in clubs and venues with bands that have, not virtually, but have no airplay. So, we know that the association between that business and the radio station will be beneficial for both of us financially, we're certain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14167 Also there's the PEAK performance project and, as it grows, the associations there with the local advertisers and perhaps beyond local advertisers, in time there will be some sponsorship opportunities and generate revenues through sponsorships and spot sales, time sales over time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14168 And while the target, over time our target really is women 35‑44 as a, you know, focus target, we know that it's wider than that. We know our demographic will be wider than that. We know that the advertiser appeal will be quite a bit wider than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14169 And, so, as time moves forward and the skill of our sales department, which is formidable, that we'll be able to make our business plan and do quite well as the years go forward against what ratings might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14170 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14171 Notwithstanding all of that, sometimes things happen in marketplaces that can't be anticipated and, so, I need to ask you if the forecasts don't come about, what would be the first adjustment that you would make?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14172 MR. ARNISH: I don't know that we would make any adjustment. We're ‑‑ again, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but there was a Commissioner one time said, go ahead and beat it, so I guess I will a little bit.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14173 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Which dead horse is it?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14174 MR. ARNISH: You know, us being in this market for as long as we have, Mr. Pattison bought CJOR back in 1965, as you're aware. You know, we've been around in the market, we've seen the British Columbia economy go up and down and up and down, but it's certainly been on a roll the last five years in particular and we really don't see it going anywhere but continue to go up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14175 In answer to your question, if things go down in the economy and we're a new niche Triple A format with the PEAK here in Vancouver, we're very committed to ensuring that what we've committed to you here today, what we've committed to you in our application, that we will follow through at the end of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14176 With our group of stations in British Columbia and Alberta, we rely on each other obviously from a financial perspective as well as programming, people and promotion, so on and so forth, and what we have in front of you today we are committed to for the long, long term. We're not going anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14177 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. And what if you ‑‑ would anything change if you exceed the expectations, other than that you can recoup some of that $18‑million that goes back into your history and was the reason why you're here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14178 MR. ARNISH: Would anything change? I don't think so. It's going to take us a while for this format to certainly grow and to meet our business plans.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14179 We want to make ‑‑ we want to ensure, like everybody else in front of you as well at this hearing, we want to at the end of the day ensure that we're running a station that is profitable at the end of the day, contributes to the system, contributes to the community and the City of Vancouver and the metropolitan area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14180 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. That concludes my line of questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14181 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14182 I believe Commissioner Williams has some questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14183 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Arnish and panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14184 MR. ARNISH: It's still morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14185 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is still morning, barely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14186 Regarding the $2.8‑million commitment to FACTOR with the 350,000 designated for use by Aboriginal artists, do you expect and have you made any form of request to FACTOR that these funds all be invested in British Columbia by FACTOR with B.C. artists and B.C. Aboriginal artists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14187 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, Commissioner Williams, thank you for asking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14188 In our application, as one of the appendices, we have a letter from Ms Ostertag at FACTOR and it spells it out quite clearly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14189 I can just read it out here for you, if you like. She confirms that:
"The Pattison Broadcast Group's contribution of $2.8‑million over seven years will be earmarked for B.C. artists whose genre is specific to that of the Applicant's stations." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14190 MR. SIEMENS: That would be Triple A.
"If there are no qualifying B.C. artists falling within that genre, funds will then be made available to B.C. artists of all genres." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14191 MR. SIEMENS: And, lastly:
"Should there be no qualifying B.C. artists in the fiscal year, the funds will be put back into the general fund for that year." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14192 MR. SIEMENS: So, we will be using that money in British Columbia and she also acknowledges the $50,000 each year for Aboriginal artists in her letter of September 25th.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14193 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Siemens.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14194 That's my question, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14195 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish and your team. I just have a couple of questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14196 Now, on the ‑‑ you know, Mr. Siemens, you gave a very full answer on the distinction between your Triple A and the other applicants and also on the comment on what was textbook and what's not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14197 But that discussion also prompted me to take a look at the playlists and put them side by side and compare them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14198 So, I'm looking at your playlist which you appended as Appendix 8C and I see how you were ‑‑ I think you were alluding earlier to, you can't just play completely current, unheard music because listeners need ‑‑ the listeners you're targeting need some familiarity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14199 So, does that account for the alternation between current and Gold?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14200 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14201 Mr. Eno, do you want to respond to this question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14202 THE CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I should start first with this. Maybe I don't understand what current and Gold is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14203 MR. ENO: In our application we described current as anything within the last two years and Gold as over two years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14204 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, that does explain quite a bit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14205 What percentage of the 40 per cent which you said that your application ‑‑ your music is 60 per cent new music and 40 per cent is from 80s, 90s and the earlier part of this decade; then of that percentage, of the 40 per cent what portion of it would be hits?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14206 MR. ENO: We really haven't broken out a hit/non‑hit ratio for that. Some of it would be familiar, some of it would be hits as according to charts. I would say probably about half.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14207 The other aspect of this is that a song might have been released in the 90s, there might have been an album that had that hit on it. We would also look further into that CD and play something from that album that may be from that era but not necessarily a hit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14208 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, great. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14209 One question that ‑‑ now, your stated preference in your deficiency response I believe is for 100.5 which that would free up the frequency for an additional player.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14210 Is that still your position?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14211 MR. ARNISH: I think it is a tremendous opportunity for our company and our team here in Vancouver, you can see them all behind us, they're ready to go on building the new PEAK here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14212 And, you know, I guess just to give you some background history, when we looked at putting an application together and, as a matter of fact, working with our consulting engineers, DM Allen & Associates, we found out working through them that we actually could come up with a new frequency for Vancouver and we started working on an application for 100.5 before we found out about the 104.1 hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14213 And, so, when that came about we started scratching our heads and saying, "Well, what should we do here at the end of the day?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 14214 And, as you're aware, to answer the question and, at the end of the day, we decided to apply for both 104.1 and the 100.5, so that we certainly weren't off base either, but our preference is the 100.5 for Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14215 You know, there's lots of talk right now with the Commission right across the country about diversity of voices and new voices and new formats and new entrants into the marketplace, and we believe with our commitment to the 100.5, which is what we really want, it allows you then to license, you know, a new music format in Vancouver and again bring more diversity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14216 And I guess the other thing too that, you know, we would say with our conversion application is, we have $12‑million on the table for Canadian content development, you license another player, there's more money that can go into Canadian content development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14217 So, who knows, maybe at the end of the day there might be 18 or $19‑million of direct Canadian content development initiatives here in Vancouver with two new FM licences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14218 So, we're very, very excited about the 100.5
LISTNUM 1 \l 14219 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, the 100.5 is a frequency that only you ‑‑ that only Pattison could use.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14220 MR. ARNISH: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14221 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, so, it was an option; wasn't it, to just apply for the flip for a frequency that only you could use?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14222 MR. ARNISH: That is correct, Madam Chair. When we went into this we didn't feel at the time that there was another frequency because we understood that the 104.1 was designated to CBC and that's why we went out and found our own frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14223 The last time we were in front of you, you know, we heard that this was the last frequency and then there was another hearing, this is the last frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14224 So, we thought, well, maybe we've got the last frequency and then the 104.1 came up. But suffice to say that we created this frequency opportunity in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mm‑hmm. Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14226 How many and who do you think we should license? Obviously I believe you believe that you should be licensed; so who else would be most compatible?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14227 MR. ARNISH: Well, you've had a lot of great applicants in front of you already, there's a number of others coming up today and tomorrow morning as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14228 The least intrusive applicants would be certainly the Christian applicants that were in front of you over the last couple of days. Obviously there's others after the Triple A format as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14229 We believe the best use of the 100.5 frequency is to launch a new Triple A station. We really have to leave it to the Commission's decision at the end of the day, who presented the best application, who is going to be committed for the long term for the 104.1 and at the end of the day, if you license another Triple A, we're ready to compete, we're ready to compete with any and all formats and ownership groups as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14230 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will turn it over to legal. I may have another question afterwards, and then your pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14231 MS PINSKY: I just have one question of clarification really for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14232 In your Executive Summary on page 3 you indicated that the PEAK will feature alternative music from rock, pop and folk music genres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14233 And then in speaking today and in your deficiency responses you state that the overwhelming majority of our music will come from the rock and pop music genres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14234 And I was wondering if you could clarify that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14235 MR. SIEMENS: I will start that response, counsel, and then I'll just ask Gord to finish up my comments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14236 For the most part we will be drawing our music from rock and pop, Category 2 music, but we've spent some time this morning describing some of the special music programs, the Sunday Morning Show and some of the acoustic programs and so on where we will be ‑‑ because as I said earlier, not to repeat myself, but it's a very elastic format Triple A, that's what makes it so exciting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14237 So, in some of those specialized programs we will occasionally be mining some Category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14238 Gord, maybe you can finish that thought.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14239 MR. ENO: Especially in those special programs is where the Category 3 music will fall into, the borders program and the acoustic program would be predominantly Category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14240 MS PINSKY: So, just to understand then, in terms of your music playlist, setting aside the specific programs, can I understand it that the music will feature rock and pop and folk will be ‑‑ or, you have indicated folk, so that would just be separate and then with regard to the general music list, because I'm looking specifically at how, just so that we can characterize what you will be featuring and what the focus will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14241 MR. ENO: The radio station is a Category 2 radio station with the focus on Category 2 which really does ‑‑ when you look at the description of the Category 2 music, it does involve, you know, rock, dance, R&B, urban, techno, rock & roll, rhythm and blues, soul, dance, hip‑hop, those are all Category 2 songs, or Category 2 descriptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14242 The majority of the music that we will be playing, with the exception of 4.7 I believe the term is, will be Category 2 music and stretching the parameters of all that is described as Category 2 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14243 MS PINSKY: Okay, thanks. Just to clarify I think folk can fall, depending on the type of music, in Category 2 as well as Category 3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14244 MR. ENO: That's correct, folk can be in both categories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14245 MS PINSKY: And then just to clarify, I think you indicated that you'd be in a position to file by the end of day Friday the budget breakdown for the Save the Music Foundation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14246 MR. ARNISH: Yes, we can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14247 MS PINSKY: Or you have provided it orally on the record, is that what you're saying.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14248 MR. ARNISH: Yes, orally, you're correct, and we'll do that, we'll file it by Friday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14249 MS PINSKY: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14250 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cugini has a question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14251 MEMBER CUGINI: I apologize, but I have to do this. Mr. Eno, I just want to know, being in the music business, how many people ask you if you're related to Brian?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14252 MEMBER CUGINI: That's all. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14253 MR. ENO: I can tell that you're in the music business just by asking that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr. Arnish and your team, this is an opportunity for your last‑minute pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14255 MR. ARNISH: Thank you, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14256 As identified by the Chair in your opening comments to this hearing, you have before you two applications from the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group. One is a competitive application for 104.1, while the second is an application for a conversion of our existing AM station to 100.5 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14257 Dealing first with our competitive application, we believe we have presented the Commission with the best use of the 104.1 FM frequency in comparison to all other applications before you for the following key reasons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14258 The PEAK FM offers a distinct radio voice to the Vancouver market which can compete in a sustainable way with strong national operators which presently dominate the Vancouver market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14259 We have a strong realistic business plan and we have the resources to deliver on that plan over the course of the licence term and beyond, as we have been doing for the past 42 years in the Vancouver market. The Commission can have complete confidence we will deliver on what we have promised.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14260 Our benefits package recognizes the value of a licence for Vancouver which includes our commitment of $12‑million in direct and $7‑million in indirect commitments which far exceed any other applicant in this highly competitive proceeding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14261 Our investments will (a) held add a distinct new voice in Vancouver through our material $3‑million commitment to Aboriginal voices radio; and, (b) we will increase access to the broadcasting system for emerging artists, both through our condition of licence to our emerging artists but even more significantly through our unprecedented level of commitment through the PEAK performance project which invests $5,290,000 in the development of emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14262 In the competitive application process for 104.1, we submit we have tabled the best use of the frequency and would be pleased to accept 104.1 and compete in Vancouver with two FMs and an AM on a level playing field with the incumbent national radio companies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14263 That said, the Commission has a concern with adding diversity of voice and, therefore, we have taken steps to assist the Commission in adding diversity while meeting our objective of converting our 600 AM licence to FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14264 We undertook significant technical work and negotiated accommodations to create an FM frequency for Vancouver at 100.5 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14265 Madam Chair, we have tabled the same substantial benefits for our conversion application on 100.5 FM equal to our application for a new 104.1 FM frequency, providing the Commission with the opportunity to add two new services to Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14266 We're the only applicant able to utilize the 100.5 frequency. Approval of our conversion allows the Commission to achieve the greatest amount of diversity that can come from this proceeding. It creates sustainable diversity by allowing the Pattison Broadcast Group to create an exciting new Triple A radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14267 It allows the Commission to license a second new station for Vancouver at 104.1 and it enables AVR to sustain its service to the Vancouver market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14268 Thank you very much for this opportunity to appear before you today and present our application for the PEAK in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish and to your team. Thanks for your time and your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14270 We will take a lunch break and be back at 1:15, please.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1208 / Suspension à 1208
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1315 / Reprise à 1315
LISTNUM 1 \l 14271 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item 14 which is an application by 902890 Alberta Limited for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14272 Please introduce yourself and your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14273 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 14274 MR. DHILLON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14275 Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff. My name is Sukhdev Singh Dhillon, I'm the President of 902890 Alberta Limited and founder of Radio Punjab.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14276 I would like to begin by thanking the Commission for entertaining our application for the new modern global music format World FM, FM radio licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14277 I will now take a moment to introduce our panel. Seated to my right is Narinder Ghag, he will be our CFO of our company. Beside Narinder is Amrita Kaur, a student at SFU studying Bachelor of Arts Criminology. Beside Amrita is Samar Ghazi, a student at SFU studying Bachelor of Arts majoring in psychology.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14278 Beside Samar is Marinda Gill, a student at Kwantlen University College studying for a degree in human resources. She will be heading our human resources department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14279 To my left is Kuljeet Kaur, a former program director at Radio Punjab. I'm sorry that Sashi Kapoor who she works with the Natural Resources of Canada had an urgent meeting to go to, she could not attend.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14280 And beside myself, to my left is Kuljeet Kaur and besides Kuljeet Kaur is Amrik Singh Nijjar, he's the President of Five River Society, an umbrella organization of all local Sikh and Hindu religious societies of Greater Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14281 Our presentation today will illustrate that we have crafted a quality application, that we are experienced broadcasters, that the economic conditions of the market is more favourable in Vancouver, B.C. than it is in other parts of the country, that we have created a solid conservative business plan based on our 14 years of selling radio advertising in the local market and that we provide a missing, highly desired radio option to Vancouver region listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14282 We will also show that our format will help break and launch new Canadian artists through commercial airplays of their music on FM airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14283 Our application includes hundreds of individual and business letters of support. We have conducted extensive research into the viability of our proposed format in Greater Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14284 Our research is ongoing, but unequivocally points to a clear need for a modern global music format on a commercial radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14285 The modern global music format is a vibrant format. It exists on the Internet but it is not available on conventional over‑the‑air radio in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14286 This application is by 902890 Alberta Limited in response to Broadcasting Notice CRTC 2007‑95, the Public Notice in which Commission invited interested parties to apply for a broadcasting licence to provide a commercial radio service for Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14287 As a leading Canadian media company and content provide, 902890 Alberta Limited has presence in the Canadian radio history since 2000. Over the years 902890 Alberta Limited radio station has become known for its local focus and its ability to take advantage of the market opportunities by implementing new cutting edge formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14288 The most recent example being the launch of 16 hours of programming in Edmonton on CKER 101.7 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14289 I have been involved in radio broadcasting for the last 14 years throughout Canada and the U.S.A. When our application is approved, we will use our resources and expertise to offer Vancouver's diverse population an innovative programming concept, a radio station featuring modern global music, a new format that blends traditional world music with modern global sounds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14290 This new station will celebrate the universal language of music which transcends culture and begs to be shared and experienced. In addition, spoken word programming that encourages and promotes cross‑cultural understanding will be complementing the station's music‑based programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14291 This station will be of particular interest to Vancouver area youth, an age group that have largely abandoned radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14292 Operating at 98.7 FM, the new station will be known as World FM, Vancouver's modern global music station and identified by the call sign CIRP.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14293 The term modern global does not refer to one genre but collage of different types of popular music targeted at young diverse urban audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14294 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, in our brief today we hope to share with you our vision for what we believe will be a ground breaking new kind of radio offering and, in doing so, we plan to give you a taste of what World FM is all about, show how World FM will fill an important void in Vancouver and explain how World FM will bring increased diversity to Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14295 By the time we wrap up today, we hope to have answered three fundamental questions. Will World FM clearly reflect the diversity as well as the multicultural and multi‑ethnic reality of Vancouver? Will World FM advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act? Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14296 As we will demonstrate, we believe that the answer to all these questions is yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14297 Ms Samar Kaur.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14298 MS KAUR: Thanks, Mr. Dhillon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14299 Vancouver is one of the most diverse cities in the world. Its residents are multicultural and multilingual and multi‑ethnic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14300 I was born and raised in this city and I'm just one example of the Vancouver of today. Like many young Vancouverites, I am Canadian and extremely proud of my cultural roots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14301 You may be asking yourselves whether the ethnic broadcasters in this group serve people like me, first and second generation Canadians? The answer is no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14302 In my parents' kitchen, Punjabi radio is always on. I may listen to it when I'm visiting them and enjoy the experience. However, when I return to my home I'm listening to artists from all over the world, not just South Asia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14303 World FM's mission will be to seek out the best music from around the world and share with an audience eager to experience contemporary international sounds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14304 World FM will be the first station in Canada to champion a genre we are calling modern global music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14305 Musical influences are transcending geographical borders and are apparent in the electric sounds that are emerging from the streets of the world's urban centres: cities like San Paolo, Brazil; Ibiza, Spain; Bombay, India; Vienna, Austria and right here in Vancouver you can hear everything from Aboriginal hip hop in East Vancouver to fungara(ph) from Surrey, as well as many other ground breaking artists who are marrying modern trends in music and production with their regional influences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14306 World FM will showcase these artists. Given that this is the first service of its kind in Canada, the best way to get World FM is to experience it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14307 MS GHAZI: World FM will promote a growing, diverse cutting edge Canadian music scene that receives limited airplay, if any, on conventional radio. Instead of marginalizing the material, World FM will celebrate the works of such trail blazers as War Party, Chin Enjenti(ph) and Jazzy Bains.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14308 In total, a minimum of 40 per cent of World FM's music selections will be Canadian. At least 50 per cent of these songs will be uncharted, guaranteeing exposure for emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14309 In addition, we will spend over $1‑million to support ethnically diverse Canadian talent and the further development of modern global music in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14310 World FM 98.7 will make a significant contribution to the development of Canadian musical talent by introducing listeners in the Vancouver area to cutting edge diverse music that does not receive airplay on conventional Canadian radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14311 We are proposing a service that connects with the largest emerging group of diverse Vancouverites, they are connected to their roots, they live in Canada and are navigating cultural experiences from around the world. They are, in fact, the next generation of Vancouverites who have been missed by both conventional commercial radio and traditional ethnic radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14312 Our mission is to create a radio experience that is truly reflective on the reality. World FM will accomplish this in three ways.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14313 First, modern global music is a music format that is inherently unimaginatively diverse. The station will take audiences on a musical journey around the globe. We'll fully reflect the diversity that is Vancouver. Not only will this be easily achievable in the case of a start‑up station, but given the nature of this station's format, this diversity will be central to World's FM success.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14314 World FM will provide listeners with a minimum of 36 hours of locally produced culturally diverse spoken word programming each week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14315 The station's spoken word programming will take one of three forms: long form programming designed to promote cross‑cultural understanding; features consisting of interviews with artists from Canada and around the world which will offer valuable insight into this emerging musical genre; and youth and public affairs programming focus on issues of importance to our listeners' communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14316 In short, we are inviting Vancouver's youth to experience the world through music. World FM will be a leader in connecting with today's youth on their terms and integrating their media preferences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14317 With recent advancements in technology, music is being created, recorded and shared at almost an unprecedented rate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14318 Today's young Canadians live in one of the most wired countries in the world. Their technology savvy garner musical influences from around the globe and connect with like‑minded people on multiple platforms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14319 They view themselves as members of a global community of lovers of music and culture. Since last several years time spent listening to radio for Vancouver residents between the ages 12 and 34 has declined. Tuning by younger ethnic Vancouverites would be even more. To connect with Vancouver's youth, World FM will have to compete with the Internet, MP3 players, online communities and blog for its audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14320 Our goal is to create a radio format that is relevant to the diversity of Vancouver, becomes a meaningful part of the media mix that they consume and speaks to them directly. To do this, we will need to offer them a total experience that they are not currently finding on other media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14321 As well, we will need to integrate new technology such as the Internet and wireless to reach out to listeners and create an interactive experienced community around both the radio programming and the artists featured on World FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14322 MS GILL: Statistics Canada data for the Vancouver CMA shows that almost 50 per cent of Vancouver's population are visible minorities, 70 per cent of visible minorities are under the age of 45 and 37 per cent of visible minorities are under the age of 25. The breakdown for the Aboriginal population skews even younger. 95 per cent of Vancouver's young visible minority and Aboriginal population speaks English. Though these young people come from many different cultural backgrounds, they share not only a global view and a love of music, they connect in the same language, English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14323 At present, no radio station is dedicated to serving Vancouver's multicultural youth. Vancouver's ethnic media may provide some programming that is of interest to younger generations of immigrants or second or third generation youth who are more fluent in English, however, the bulk of the programming they offer is directed at an immigrant population that is looking for a link between the new land and the homeland.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14324 In contrast, Vancouver's commercial radio stations cater to an audience seeking more conventional hit‑driven playlists and programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14325 While Vancouver's diverse youth do listen to these stations, given the evidence of declining hours of tuning, they aren't getting everything they need.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14326 World FM would answer that need, providing music and programming currently unavailable in the market. Specifically targeting young visible minorities who define themselves simultaneously as Canadian and as members of a particular cultural community and heritage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14327 We firmly believe that World FM will make a significant contribution to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and will truly reflect the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multi‑ethnic reality of Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14328 As a result, we believe that the approval of this application will strengthen the Canadian broadcasting system and the multicultural fabric of this country and, therefore, would be in the public interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14329 Young Vancouverites from visible minorities and Aboriginal communities want a station that reflects the contemporary Canadian experience, one that offers music and programming from multiple cultures shifting between them and promoting a shared cross‑cultural reality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14330 In effect, our goal with World FM is to create a station that bridges the void between traditional ethnic broadcasters and conventional commercial broadcasters. Not only will this appropriately fill a hole in the market, it will ensure that World FM will have minimal impact on the existing commercial broadcasters or any traditional third language broadcasters that operate today or may be licensed in this process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14331 MS GHAZI: The broadcasting policy for Canada as set out in section 3 of the Broadcasting Act states that:
"The Canadian Broadcasting System should encourage the development of Canadian expression by providing a wide range of programming that reflects Canadian attitudes, opinions, ideas, values and artistic creativity and, through its programming and the employment opportunities arising out of its operations, serve the needs and interests and reflect the circumstances and aspirations of Canadian men, women and children, including equal rights, the linguistic duality and multicultural and multi‑racial nature of Canadian society and the special case of Aboriginal peoples within that society." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14332 MS GHAZI: These two objectives are the basis for the Commission's quest for diversity, both for a programming or format perspective and an ethnocultural perspective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14333 With respect to programming diversity or diversity of format, the Commission has implemented a number of policies to help achieve this goal. For example, format diversity was highlighted as one of the potential benefits of the changes the Commission made to the Radio Common Ownership Policy in 1998.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14334 The Commission has also been clear that both traditional ethnic licensees and mainstream broadcasters have an important role to play in the investment of cultural diversity and cultural understanding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14335 We have a very long tradition in this area, not only through on‑air representation and leading the industry in best practices, but by making diversity essential to what we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14336 When licensed, World FM will make a significant contribution to the development of Canadian talent by providing a wide range of Canadian recording artists with extensive exposure in Canada's second‑largest English‑language radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14337 As discussed above, many of these artists currently receive little or no airplay on mainstream Canadian radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14338 In addition, over the course of its first licence term, the station will spend $150,000 each year on CCD, for a total of over $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14339 These expenditures will be directed to eligible third parties, including FACTOR, national music organizations, local music festivals, workshops, and to host a talent contest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14340 MR. DHILLON: As frequencies become scarce in many large markets, it is increasingly important that the Commission use these opportunities to promote diversity in both senses of the word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14341 World FM is such an opportunity. There is a major segment of the population in this city that is young, diverse, cosmopolitan, multilingual, and, by its very nature, worldly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14342 Both mainstream commercial radio and traditional third language broadcasters have not connected with this audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14343 World FM will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system by filling this void.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14344 Our established base in Vancouver will ensure that World FM has the resources to make this happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14345 At the outset of our presentation we wanted to give you a feel of the station, show where the station's listeners will come from, and demonstrate how this application will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14346 In addition, we indicated that we would try to answer three questions:
LISTNUM 1 \l 14347 Will World FM clearly reflect diversity, as well as the multicultural and multi‑ethnic reality of Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14348 Will World FM advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14349 Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14350 We believe that the answer to these questions is yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14351 In closing, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, as we talked to the streets of this city you may have noticed its magnificent geography, but, more importantly, you can't fail to notice diversity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14352 While global music is a growing and increasingly successful genre, it is uncharted territory for the Canadian radio industry. If there is anywhere in Canada where this type of radio station can break through, it is here in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14353 Clearly, the world has come to Vancouver. Vancouver's unity is in its diversity. That diversity is in search of a voice, and that voice is World FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14354 Thank you for your time. We look forward to your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dhillon, and your team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14356 Commissioner Duncan will lead the questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14357 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Welcome, and thank you for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14358 First of all, I would like to start by dealing with the frequency. As you know, there is an issue with the frequency, and we are just wondering if you would like this application now considered under 104.1, which was the alternative frequency that you indicated in your application, as opposed to 98.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14359 MR. DHILLON: We would still go with 98.7 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14360 We have seen the Rogers' letter, dated February 22nd, and we have applied for that, too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14361 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right. We will take that under advisement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14362 It is my understanding that Rogers takes the position that they can insist that you not have that frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14363 Counsel, do you want to make a comment on that first?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14364 MS PINSKY: Perhaps we should understand the Applicant's position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14365 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14366 MR. DHILLON: In regards to the Rogers' intervention for technical reasons, we have been pondering technical reasons for this objection by Rogers since the letter was received on January 22nd, 2008.
"Now, on February 27th, 2008, we think that, in general, FM radio coverage is to be enclosed in a prime location, such as a populated area like Vancouver, with a prime counter of 3 millivolts, and less for regional coverage.
We are fully aware that all the technical applications should follow BPR's. However, they are all man‑made.
Flexibility of the BPR application may bring more benefits to all concerned. As multiculturalism in broadcast communities is becoming more accepted, we believe that minor mutual interference in service could result with mutual tolerance.
No matter how we try to revise current CIRP‑FM technical parameters, we come to the conclusion that the current parameters are deemed suitable for best utilization of the scarce 254B in Vancouver, providing that an agreement in principle, technically and mutually exclusive on CIOC 253C versus CIRP‑FM on Channel 254 could be reached with great tolerance between the two parties involved.
In regards to Rogers' statement that our application was examined by Industry Canada in 2005, we would like to state, to the contrary, that our file was never examined in 2005 by Industry Canada.
History shows that coverage to Victoria from Vancouver has been proven technically difficult, as many broadcast engineers have tried in the past various attempts to reduce capital and maintenance costs on their facilities.
If we are correct, Victoria finally got their local broadcasting facilities in the 1990s, providing residents with a prime, quality service.
Therefore, CIOC‑FM, planning to cover only part of the major Vancouver area in .5 millivolt counter from Victoria, or any site on Vancouver Island, is deemed technically and economically inefficient.
CIOC‑FM, knowing that their 253C service was not adequate for greater Vancouver, when the CRTC call in 2004 and the current CRTC call was for Vancouver, why did they not apply to either upgrade its facility parameters to permissible EHAAT of 450 metre max or apply their Vancouver service on the same channel, 254, or even on, possibly, 254CL?
Industry Canada had stated in the letter dated February 18th that our proposal fully protects CIOC's actual service counter over Canadian territory. Therefore, we are requesting to the Commission that the objection be overruled."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Dhillon, could you please file the letter that you just read from?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14368 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14369 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14370 MS PINSKY: Perhaps we could, as well, confirm that the Applicant understands that the CRTC is not in a position to issue a licence unless the frequency is ‑‑ it must receive technical approval from Industry Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14371 MR. DHILLON: Pardon me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14372 MS PINSKY: I want to make certain that you understand that the CRTC is not in a position to issue a licence unless there is an acceptance by Industry Canada, an indication of technical approval of the frequency, in support of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14373 MR. DHILLON: In the letter dated February 18th, they had asked the Commission to ‑‑ that this objection be overruled.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14374 This is their letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14375 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Dhillon, I want to try to simplify it, so I can follow this better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14376 MR. DHILLON: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14377 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your request ‑‑ your application was based on the use of 98.7, and you submitted that request to Industry Canada for approval. As a result of that submission, Rogers filed an intervention to explain the interference with their existing frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14378 Industry Canada then came back and said: We cannot, at this time, issue the technical approval. However, if these matters can be resolved ‑‑ negotiated between the parties ‑‑ Rogers and you, in this instance ‑‑ then things can be worked out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14379 However, Rogers has now filed the letter, which you have seen, which says that there is no negotiation. They will not negotiate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14380 Therefore, for as long as they will not negotiate, the primary frequency for which you have applied is not available. That is why Commissioner Duncan started with her question: Is your application now based on your alternate frequency for which you have asked.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14381 MR. DHILLON: It could be based on the alternate frequency, or any other frequency which is available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14382 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Dhillon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14383 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you. We will continue then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14384 First of all, I wanted to start with questions on programming. I am sure you know that the Radio Policy states that in your local programming you must incorporate spoken word material of direct and particular relevance to the community served, and this must include local news, weather, sports coverage, and the promotion of local events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14385 In your deficiency response of December 5th, you indicated that you would broadcast 36 hours and 17.5 minutes of spoken word programming, and you gave us a breakdown of four categories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14386 I don't know if you want me to read those off to you, or if you want to turn to the letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14387 That was in your answer to Question 2 of that letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14388 You indicated 2.5 hours of information programming of relevance to youth; 2 hours and 32.5 minutes of news; 1 hour and 15 minutes of sports; and half an hour of spoken word programming, focusing around music; for a total, which you indicated near the top of that page, of 36 hours and 17.5 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14389 I have a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14390 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14391 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: How much time will be spent on surveillance material ‑‑ that would be material including local weather, traffic, promoting community events, and other matters of general interest ‑‑ during the broadcast week?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14392 MR. DHILLON: That would be 1 hour and 15 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14393 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: That is in addition to what is here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14394 I see that you have 1 hour and 15 minutes for sports, so this is another 1 hour and 15 minutes, is it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14395 MR. DHILLON: Yes. The total would be for 4 minutes. That would be news, weather, sports, traffic, and the news programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14396 Four hours per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14397 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Four hours. Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14398 So the difference between the 4 hours and the 36 hours ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14399 I'm sorry, say that again?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14400 MR. DHILLON: The total is 36 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14401 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14402 MR. DHILLON: But, out of that, 4 hours per week will be divided among news, weather, sports and traffic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14403 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Let me ask it this way first, then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14404 How much time would be spent on pure news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14405 MR. DHILLON: Two hours and 32 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14406 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Two hours and 32 minutes. So that is local, regional and international news, then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14407 MR. DHILLON: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14408 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. And sports is an hour and 15 minutes. That's clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14409 And spoken word programming around music is half an hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14410 And information programming of relevance to youth is 2.5 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14411 And those total 36 hours and 17.5 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14412 So surveillance material ‑‑ local weather, traffic ‑‑ is not in that list, and that is what we are trying to arrive at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14413 MR. DHILLON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14414 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: If you like, you could think about that, and then you could give that back to us later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14415 MR. DHILLON: Sure, we can file that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14416 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: You don't have to answer right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14417 MR. DHILLON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14418 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Counsel will let you know later about when. If you could do that, that would be great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14419 In your application, at Section 8.3 ‑‑ if you want to turn to that ‑‑ you indicated that you would be doing local programming, and your commitment would be a minimum of 90 hours of local programming a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14420 In your deficiency response on November 25th, at Question 2(a), you indicated that you would be working with CKUA‑FM in Edmonton to broadcast some of their programming to make up the remainder of the 36 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14421 I am just wondering what arrangements ‑‑ further arrangements have you made, then, with respect to the difference between the 90 hours that you have said you are going to dedicate to local programming and the 126 hours in the broadcasting week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14422 That 36 hours, are you still planning to take that from CKUA‑FM in Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14423 MR. DHILLON: No, Madam, we are planning to ‑‑ live‑to‑air 126 hours from locally ‑‑ from Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14424 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14425 So it will all be live, then, with no voice track?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14426 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14427 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Are you going to do any voice tracking?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14428 MR. DHILLON: No voice tracking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14429 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All live. Okay. Great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14430 Turning to CCD, Canadian content development, Commercial Radio Policy 2006 requires that contributions be dedicated to initiatives that provide high quality audio content for broadcast, and, as well, that CCD initiatives involve direct expenditures that must be allocated to the support, promotion, training and development of Canadian musical and spoken word talent, including journalists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14431 I am wondering if we could look at four of the CCD initiatives you outline in your November 25th letter, and if you could explain to us, for the record, how they satisfy the requirements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14432 The first one is "New Music West".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14433 MR. DHILLON: Yes, the first one is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14434 Actually, the first one is FACTOR, $50,000 annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14435 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: That was okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14436 MR. DHILLON: And the second one is "Canadian Music Week".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14437 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14438 MR. DHILLON: And that is $20,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14439 And the other one is "New Music West", which is $25,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14440 And the Vancouver International Jazz Festival is $10,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14441 And "Modern Global Music Talent Showcase" is $25,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14442 And the "World FM Modern Global Music Workshops" is $20,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14443 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: There are just four of them, actually, that we are looking for a bit more detail on. The first is "New Music West". We are wondering, in your view, how that satisfies the criteria for CCD initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14444 MR. DHILLON: "New Music West" is a major live music festival and industry conference which is held annually in Vancouver. It is in its 18th year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14445 It operates as a vehicle for discovering new talent and furthering discussions on the current state of the music industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14446 I think this qualifies for CCD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14447 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Mr. Dhillon, is that in what you have submitted?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14448 MR. DHILLON: If not, I can ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14449 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: No, no, that's okay, we will have it on the recording. I just wondered if I should have read it somewhere and I hadn't seen it. That's okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14450 MR. DHILLON: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14451 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: The next one is the Vancouver International Jazz Festival. What we would like to know there is that all of the money will be spent on Canadian resources and will not be used to pay for artists from abroad to participate in the festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14452 MR. DHILLON: No, it will be all for Canadian local artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14453 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Then, perhaps, on the Local Talent Showcase, you could explain how that satisfies the requirements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14454 MR. DHILLON: Now it is in its 31st year. This is the Vancouver Folk Music Festival, which was created to inspire and sell good music in the City of Vancouver, and show what can happen when all kinds of people get together for a great time on stage, backstage, and out in front of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14455 Through its history, the festival has showcased leading musical talent from a variety of different musical genre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14456 When licensed, World FM will direct $25,000 annually to hold a concert showcasing diverse, emerging, local and regional and ethnic artists that will form part of the Vancouver Folk Music Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14457 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14458 The last one, then, is the workshop.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14459 MR. DHILLON: If licensed, World FM will direct $20,000 annually to the development and the staging of a two‑day workshop on modern global music. This workshop will provide an opportunity for diverse, emerging artists in the genre to meet and learn, and to establish and develop contacts within the recording industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14460 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14461 Your CCD is, in total, $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14462 Let's make sure I have that right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14463 It is $1,050,000. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14464 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14465 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Are you willing to accept an overall COL to that effect?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14466 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14467 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14468 With respect to the music format ‑‑ and I don't know if you were here this morning ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14469 First of all, before we start comparing with the competing applications, I am wondering, what percentage of your Category 2 music will be dedicated to alternative rock and urban music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14470 MR. DHILLON: It will be 70 percent Category 2, and 30 percent world beat.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14471 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Of the 70 percent, could you break that down into the Category 2 categories?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14472 MR. DHILLON: It will be pop rock and dance ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14473 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14474 MR. DHILLON: ‑‑ and acoustics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14475 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14476 Do you have any split on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14477 MR. DHILLON: This is going to be driven by the audience, what they really want to hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14478 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. That makes sense. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14479 As you know, we have many excellent applications here for licences for Vancouver, and we would like to understand what makes your application ‑‑ what distinguishes your application from the other alternative album applications that we have ‑‑ adult, alternative, album applications that we have ‑‑ "Triple A" applications that we have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14480 What distinguishes yours from ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14481 MR. DHILLON: Actually, we are targeting youth, 14 to 24. We are not applying for the "Triple A" format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14482 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: But your format ‑‑ none of your music is going to be similar to that, you don't think?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14483 MR. DHILLON: There will be similarities, but our target is a younger audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14484 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Because your sub‑category 33, world beat and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14485 MR. DHILLON: It's world beat, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14486 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So you don't see that there is any similarity, or not a significant similarity?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14487 MR. DHILLON: There are some similarities; not as much as you are thinking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14488 Because our spoken word programming is more than anybody else that has been ‑‑ I have seen in the files. Ours is 36 hours, which really differentiates...
LISTNUM 1 \l 14489 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. I think the Pattison people this morning thought theirs was the highest, but that's okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14490 I am really, I guess, more concerned with the music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14491 Excuse me, I will find my spot here in a minute.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14492 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: With respect to the Evanov's application for youth contemporary, which is appealing to a similar age group, do you see any similarity there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14493 MR. DHILLON: Yes, there are some similarities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14494 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: What would you see as similarities, and what would distinguish yours from theirs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14495 MR. DHILLON: Actually, they are concentrating on spoken word, too, and so are we.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14496 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: They are going to try to build a relationship with their audience over the internet, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14497 MR. DHILLON: Yes, we are going to be broadcasting and live streaming, and blogs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14498 Also, the difference is that they are from the East. I have been living in Vancouver for 32 years, and have been in the market for the last 14 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14499 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right. I think, then, that maybe the application we heard this morning from Nirenderjit Pataria, the World Urban Rhythm ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14500 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14501 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Would you agree that that is similar to yours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14502 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14503 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: What would you see distinguishing between those two ‑‑ between that application and yours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14504 MR. DHILLON: It is pretty well the same.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14505 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Are you willing to accept a COL to the effect that 30 percent of your music will come from sub‑category 33, which is world beat and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14506 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14507 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So that assures a distinction between yours and the other formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14508 I am just wondering, then, turning to the economic analysis, will your business plan be impacted if you don't get the frequency you originally applied for?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14509 MR. DHILLON: Somewhat it will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14510 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I notice that you had given us ‑‑ you had indicated in one of your letters earlier that you thought it would not impact it, and that's why ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14511 MR. DHILLON: Sorry. If you are talking about 104.1, it won't be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14512 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: It won't impact it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14513 MR. DHILLON: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14514 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14515 Turning to your application at 5.1, you indicate that your studio plant is existing. I was wondering if you could explain to me how it is existing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14516 You don't have a radio station here in the market now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14517 MR. DHILLON: No, but I still have my studio here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14518 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: To do production, which you sell ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14519 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14520 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: ‑‑ which you do for other stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14521 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14522 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Do you have other radio licences?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14523 MR. DHILLON: I have one in Alberta. It is classic country/gospel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14524 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14525 MR. DHILLON: In Wetaskiwin, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14526 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I noticed in your application that you refer to more than 100 employees.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14527 You answered the question "Yes".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14528 Would you have that many employees?
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14529 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Let me find that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14530 It might have just been that the wrong box got ticked, that's all. I just want to confirm that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14531 At 9.1 in your application it asks: "If the proposed undertaking is approved, would the licence be subject to the 1996 Employment Equity Act for employers with more than 100 or more employees?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 14532 MR. DHILLON: At 9.1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14533 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14534 MR. DHILLON: Yes, it was ticked at the wrong place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14535 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. I thought so. Thanks very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14536 Again, the station in Edmonton is religious, did you say?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14537 MR. DHILLON: Yes. It is Christian with a classic country split.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14538 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14539 The studio plant that you have is here in Vancouver. Do you produce things here for Edmonton, as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14540 MR. DHILLON: For CKER sometimes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14541 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I notice when I look at your Income Statement, which was attached to your December 5th deficiency response ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14542 Maybe we could turn to that for a second.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14543 You are showing depreciation ranging from $59,000 to $72,000, and yet, in your application, at 5.1, you show the total assets to be purchased as $95,000. So the depreciation wouldn't ‑‑ the amount of depreciation wouldn't relate to the capital cost you are showing. At least, it's not obvious to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14544 MR. DHILLON: It shouldn't be there, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14545 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: It shouldn't be depreciation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14546 MR. DHILLON: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14547 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. So we should just take that line out?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14548 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14549 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: The assets ‑‑ you mentioned in 5.1 that you are going to have annual lease costs of $90,000, and I am wondering what line that shows up on in your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14550 I'm sorry, annual lease costs of $60,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14551 MR. DHILLON: Yes, 60.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14552 It is to CBC for leasing the transmitter site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14553 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. On the Income Statement, that must be in "General and Administration", or "Technical" perhaps?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14554 MR. DHILLON: "Technical."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14555 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14556 You are showing projected interest costs totalling $675,000 over the seven years, but in your application there is no debt indicated. At 5.2 you are not showing any debt, so I was curious to know ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14557 I know that you did provide a confidential letter, a Net Worth Statement, but I just wondered how much debt ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14558 Do you see the interest line, $675,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14559 MR. DHILLON: Yes, $61,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14560 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: The total over seven years is 675.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14561 MR. DHILLON: That is only if we needed to go out and acquire a loan. Otherwise, that wouldn't be there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14562 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: You have interest budgeted in the first year. At this point in time, do you have any idea of your plans of borrowing ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14563 MR. DHILLON: We won't need to borrow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14564 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14565 Normally what the Commission does is, it requests a letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14566 We do have a letter of net worth, so...
LISTNUM 1 \l 14567 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14568 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Did you do any market research to determine your audience share projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14569 MR. DHILLON: We are projecting less than 1 percent in the first ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14570 We don't have market research, but we have been looking for the last couple of years at different markets, and also comparing with Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14571 There was so much research done, and we knew that there was a need for this kind of station here, because I am quite involved with students and schools, with basketball teams, and I am talking to them, and I feel when they tune into American stations like 93.3 KUBE from Seattle ‑‑ I wonder why they listen to American stations ‑‑ or 106.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14572 It is because Canadian stations don't have that kind of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14573 So, then, I started doing my research, talking to different students ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14574 My son is in the basketball program, and soccer, and ball hockey, so we discuss with different students what format really fits.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14575 That is how my research started.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14576 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. So you don't have any formal research.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14577 MR. DHILLON: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14578 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I notice in section 6.1 of your application that you indicate in Year 1 you will have 3.4 million weekly hours of listening, age 12‑plus. You show that to represent a 3 percent share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14579 Do you see that at 6.1 in your application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14580 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14581 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I understand, for the Vancouver market, based on the Fall BBMs, that the 3.4 million hours would represent a 10.2 percent share, which is quite a bit above.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14582 I don't imagine that you are actually expecting a 10.2 share when you say 3 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14583 MR. DHILLON: Actually, we are expecting close to 1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14584 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Close to 1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14585 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14586 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So your projections are based on 1 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14587 MR. DHILLON: One percent, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14588 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I notice that you did mention that you are going to have a different format for programming your station between 1 and 4 p.m. daily. You are going to do it by language, I think.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14589 Do I have that correctly?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14590 You are appealing to specific nationalities, or ethnic groups?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14591 Let me find that.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14592 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: With your December 5th letter you give sample playlists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14593 For example, between 1 and 2, Japanese and German; Punjabi between 2 and 3; Ukrainian ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14594 MR. DHILLON: Yes, that would be mixed in with the regular programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14595 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: It would be mixed in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14596 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14597 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: We were concerned about losing your audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14598 You are going to have a mixture, so ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14599 MR. DHILLON: Yes. This is how The Beat 94.5 started in 2000. They used to have re‑mixes of Hindi and Punjabi songs, and that is what really attracted the ethnic audience to the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14600 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So these are re‑mixes that you are going to ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14601 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14602 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Not just a mixture of, but re‑mixes?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14603 MR. DHILLON: Mixture and re‑mixes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14604 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Both. Okay, thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14605 You indicate that you feel that 80 percent of your Year 2 revenue will come from increased advertiser spending.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14606 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14607 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I am wondering, how do you think you will go about attracting that advertising revenue when the advertisers already have established relationships with the incumbent stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14608 MR. DHILLON: I used to broadcast programming in Vancouver. In our first year of broadcasting on AM 1600 ‑‑ then we switched to AM 1550 ‑‑ our sales were $1.5 million. That was in the first year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14609 So, based on that, I had a projection ‑‑ in talking to the business community, that I am coming up with this format, they indicated that they would advertise with me, and they applied that they would advertise in so much number of dollars.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14610 So I calculated from there, and I can do, easily, $800,000 to $900,000 in the first year, no problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14611 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: The station that you referred to before, was that one that you owned? Did you have that licence or ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14612 You say you started at ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14613 MR. DHILLON: AM 1600 was owned not by me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14614 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. But you were selling advertising for it, were you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14615 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14616 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14617 So you have established contacts with advertisers, I guess.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14618 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14619 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: If the actual results aren't what you have projected, do you have the committed resources to help offset any unexpected losses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14620 MR. DHILLON: Yes, we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14621 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: If there was a shortfall in funding, you wouldn't expect to reduce or cut back on your programming expenses, would you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14622 MR. DHILLON: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14623 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: If the Commission were to license more than one applicant in this hearing, I am curious to know which applicant would be the least competitive with your application and which would be the most competitive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14624 MR. DHILLON: I think that all of the applicants have made very good presentations so far, and I wish them good luck.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14625 I think, even if our application is approved in part, we will still make our commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14626 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Dhillon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14627 MR. DHILLON: You're welcome.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14628 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Ms Pinsky, our legal counsel, if she has any questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14629 MS PINSKY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14630 I have a few questions of clarification.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14631 First, today, with regard to your commitment to emerging artists, I believe you referred in your oral presentation that it would be 50 percent of the 40 percent Canadian content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14632 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14633 MS PINSKY: To clarify, in your application you committed to 30 percent overall for emerging artists. Which is the appropriate ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14634 MR. DHILLON: We will go with 50 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14635 MS PINSKY: This would be, as I understand it, 50 percent of the 40 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14636 MR. DHILLON: For emerging artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14637 Right, that would be 30 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14638 MS PINSKY: So 30 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14639 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14640 MS PINSKY: Which would be higher than ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14641 MR. DHILLON: Yes. It's not 20 percent or 10 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14642 MS PINSKY: Another point of clarification; today, with regard to your CCD commitment, you referred to $150,000 a year. I just want to clarify, in your application the over‑and‑above CCD commitment is identified as $123,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14643 Is the difference that you are referring to the basic CCD?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14644 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14645 MS PINSKY: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14646 One last thing. You did make a commitment to Commissioner Duncan to file some information. Would you be in a position to file that by tomorrow at the end of day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14647 MR. DHILLON: That was in regards to...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14648 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: That was on the spoken word, the surveillance material.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14649 MR. DHILLON: Okay. No problem, we can do that tomorrow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14650 MS PINSKY: Perhaps I will ask one final question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14651 Would you be prepared to operate under a Condition of Licence requiring a minimum of 30 percent sub‑category 33, which is world music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14652 MR. DHILLON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14653 MS PINSKY: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14654 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dhillon. This is your opportunity for your last two‑minute pitch on why you should be licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14655 MR. DHILLON: Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14656 Our task is a really pleasant one. First of all, we are extremely pleased with the fact that we have received so many supporting interventions, and that people have taken the time to write these letters of support. In our view, this is a true testament of the quality of the application we have put forward, and a strong endorsement of the public perception of myself as a neutral, unbiased broadcaster in the ethnic and mainstream communities in Vancouver and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14657 Another way of looking at it is that awarding a licence to us on the 98.7 FM frequency will be a step in the right direction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14658 We will not have the highest CCD contributions, but we have been very responsible in our business plan in establishing an amount that is close to and exceeds the benchmark amount established by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14659 Furthermore, we would urge the Commission not to look at the CCD numbers in isolation, but also to look at the commitment of the Applicant relative to programming as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14660 Let me close by saying that there are three words you can associate with our application: experience, exclusive, and reliability.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14661 If the Commission puts its trust in us by awarding us this FM licence either on 98.7 or in part, we won't let you down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14662 More importantly, we will become a reliable and trusted servant to the under‑served group that we propose to serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14663 On behalf of everyone associated with us, we would like to thank the Commission and the CRTC Staff for the full and fair hearing you have given to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14664 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dhillon and your team. Thanks for your time and your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14665 We will take a 15‑minute break. We will come back at 2:30.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1410 / Suspension à 1410
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1433 / Reprise à 1433
LISTNUM 1 \l 14666 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item No. 15, applications by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to convert Radio Station CBU Vancouver from the AM Band to the FM Band, and to amend the licence of the English‑language radio programming undertaking CBCV‑FM Victoria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14667 Please introduce yourself and your colleagues. You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14668 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 14669 MR. STURSBERG: Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC Staff, we are very pleased to be here to present to you our plans for CBC's Radio One service in the Greater Vancouver Area, the Sunshine Coast, and the City of Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14670 Before I begin our presentation, I would like to introduce our panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14671 I am Richard Stursberg, Executive Vice‑President of English Services of the CBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14672 To my right is Jennifer McGuire, the Executive Director of CBC Radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14673 To her right is Ray Carnovale, CBC's Vice‑President and Chief Technology Officer, and Martin Levert, our Engineer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14674 To my left is Johnny Michel, the Regional Director for British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14675 To his left is Rob Scarth, the Director of Regulatory Affairs, and Mark Cannon, a Senior Research Consultant at the CBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14676 We have two applications before you in this proceeding. The first application is to move our Radio One service in Vancouver, CBU, from AM to FM, using the frequencies 88.1 for Vancouver and 98.7 for the Sunshine Coast area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14677 The purpose behind this application is simple and it is vital. It is to ensure the future survival of Radio One in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14678 We can no longer afford to tie the future of Radio One in Vancouver to the AM Band. This application is about access. It is about reaching everyone who wants our service, and that means being on FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14679 The other application is to bring the Vancouver Island Radio One service, CBC Victoria, to the residents of Nanaimo using the FM frequency 104.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14680 This application is about connecting the people of Nanaimo to the rest of Vancouver Island, and the rest of the island to Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14681 These applications are part of a plan that we have had for some time to give Radio One a presence on the FM Band across the country. It is a process of change that has been underway for well over a decade.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14682 With the Commission's support, Radio One is now available to Canadians on FM in almost every major city across the country, including Halifax, Fredericton, Saint John, Moncton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina, Calgary, Edmonton and Victoria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14683 We have approval to move Radio One to FM in Sydney, and, as you know, there is a decision pending on our application for a nested FM service for Windsor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14684 The only major cities that do not have access to Radio One on FM are St. John's and Vancouver. We are working on a plan for St. John's, and we will discuss that with you at the appropriate time, but we are here today to discuss Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14685 The challenge we are trying to address with our Vancouver‑Sunshine Coast application is twofold. Our biggest challenge is that there are people in Vancouver who simply cannot receive Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14686 In our application we gave you a sampling of the kind of comments we have received over the years about this problem. These comments range from "I can't receive 690 AM in my building," to "There is too much interference," to "None of the devices I own was built to receive AM." They sum up the situation well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14687 In order to gauge the extent of the problem we commissioned an opinion survey of a representative sample in Vancouver for 401 Radio One listeners in 2004.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14688 This survey gauged their perception of the signal quality of our Radio One service on 690 AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14689 The findings were troubling. Almost 40 percent of those surveyed told us that they have experienced reception difficulties with 690 AM often or occasionally. Whether the problem with reception was experienced at home, at work, or in the car, a significant portion of those people said that the poor reception results in less time than would otherwise have been spent listening to Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14690 Ray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14691 MR. CARNOVALE: We went further in our study of the problem. Earlier this month we carried out detailed technical reception tests on 690 AM. We took 340 measurements in 33 different locations throughout the Greater Vancouver Area, including West Vancouver, North Vancouver, Downtown, Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam and White Rock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14692 We covered the entire Vancouver area in our testing, and our indoor measurements were conducted in a mix of apartment buildings, malls and office towers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14693 In each of these locations we took two sets of measurements. The first set consisted of outside measurements to give us a reference point. We did four measurements at each corner of the building location, and then we did four inside measurements from 1 metre from a window to 10 metres from a window.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14694 We also did in‑car testing to give us readings on our outdoor reception.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14695 Taken together, this test gave us a very comprehensive set of measurements across the entire GVA.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14696 We learned two things as a result of these measurements. First, we had expected that outdoor reception in Vancouver would have been uniformly good. It was not. We have outdoor reception difficulties in West Vancouver, parts of Downtown, and the Langley area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14697 The second thing we learned ‑‑ and this was not a surprise ‑‑ was that reception quality indoors is abysmal. In 40 percent of the locations we tested, indoor reception was simply unacceptable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14698 We even tested the reception of our Radio One service in our own office building on Cambie Street. We have confirmed what many people there already know, which is that the reception quality of Radio One is poor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14699 I am going to play you three short clips from our reception test. The first clip was made right here on Robson Street, the second clip is from Maple Ridge, and the third one was inside the Capilano Mall in North Vancouver.
‑‑‑ Audio presentation / présentation audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 14700 MR. CARNOVALE: Inside a building like this...
‑‑‑ Audio presentation / présentation audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 14701 MR. CARNOVALE: That's real.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14702 MS McGUIRE: While we cannot tell you exactly how many people are affected by this situation, we do know that this is a long‑standing situation that has only gotten worse over the years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14703 We know that over the years hundreds of people have contacted us about this problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14704 We know from the many supporting interventions filed in this process that people will welcome the change to FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14705 And we know from our research, both the opinion polls and technical testing, that the problem is significant. Forty percent of people in Vancouver experience reception difficulties with 690 AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14706 In the chart we have provided to you, you can see that when we apply our research results to the entire Vancouver CMA, we are talking about 850,000 people not being effectively served by Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14707 This is the first challenge we have to address.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14708 Our second challenge is an audience challenge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14709 No broadcaster with an eye to the future wants to remain on the AM Band. The reason is simple. The AM Band is in decline, and that decline will continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14710 I have another chart to show you, called "FM and AM's Share of Listening in Canada."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14711 It is the blue and yellow chart in your binder.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14712 Thirty years ago AM was the dominant medium, capturing 84 percent of listening. Today it only captures 22 percent. The only thing that has stopped AM from declining faster than it has is the inability of certain AM stations to make the transition to FM, either because of the scarcity of FM spectrum or the CRTC's ownership rules, which limit a commercial broadcaster to two FM stations in a market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14713 The difficult reality of being on AM in Vancouver is that 44 percent of radio listeners in this market tune exclusively to the FM Band. AM Radio is simply not in their listening orbit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14714 Our potential listener base, therefore, is essentially half of what it could be by virtue of the presence of it being on AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14715 If you look at the third chart we provided with the bar graphs, you will see quite dramatically that younger listeners are not tuning into AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14716 Finally, people in Vancouver have told us that they want Radio One on FM. In a recent Angus Reid Strategies survey of 400 residents of the Greater Vancouver Area, 80 percent of respondents said that, if given the option of receiving Radio One on AM or FM, they would choose FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14717 People generally don't like change, but what they are telling us now is that they want change.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14718 We are happy to file that study with you, if you like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14719 We want Radio One to reach its full audience potential and be a service to all Canadians. This means that they must have access, and we must achieve a more balanced mix of listeners and a higher share of tuning. In order to accomplish this, an FM presence is absolutely essential.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14720 Johnny.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14721 MR. MICHEL: In developing our application for 104.1 in Nanaimo, we consulted extensively with the community this past year. We met with hundreds of people in large receptions, small gatherings, and one‑on‑one to get their input on the kind of service they want from their public broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14722 The people of Nanaimo are currently served by the 690 AM service from Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14723 While there is a connection to Vancouver because of its proximity, the people of Nanaimo feel that they have more in common with other communities on Vancouver Island than they do with the City of Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14724 They want the Radio One service that is most relevant to them, and that means the Island Service provided by CBC Radio One Victoria. That message came loud and clear in our discussions with the community, and in their written interventions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14725 To accommodate them, it is clear that the opportunity for exposure of Nanaimo's local issues is much greater on the Victoria service than it is on the Vancouver service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14726 However, we have not paid Nanaimo the programming attention it deserves for the simple reason that our Vancouver Island signal doesn't reach the people who live there. There are approximately 90,000 people in the Nanaimo area that simply aren't being served effectively by Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14727 Radio One Victoria's mandate is to serve the entire island. That mandate has not yet been fulfilled. Therefore, we have proposed a Victoria Radio One FM retransmitter to serve the community of Nanaimo so that we can include Nanaimo as part of our island Radio One service and as part of the national dialogue. We know, and the other applicants know, that 104.1 is a great frequency for Nanaimo and a poor frequency for Vancouver since it would cover less than half of Vancouver with an impaired signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14728 If approved, we would be covering Nanaimo news and events immediately and we would be opening a bureau and resourcing it in such a way that is appropriate for the second‑largest city on the island.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14729 Our goal is to embrace Nanaimo as an integral and vital part of our Radio One island service. We can only do that with a dedicated FM frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14730 MR. CARNOVALE: We believe these applications represent our last chance to make the move to FM. While one should never say never our spectrum engineers have been through this market with a fine‑tooth comb and I do not think it an exaggeration to say that if we don't make it to FM now we probably never will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14731 FM spectrum is a very scarce resource in this region. Coming up with three frequencies to enable us to move Radio One to FM has been no small feat. We have worked very hard to come up with these frequencies that make our plans possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14732 104.1 became a viable frequency only after the CBC identified it as a possibility and had Industry Canada coordinate this matter with the FCC, which then released the frequency back to Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14733 88.1 only became a viable frequency after the CBC successfully concluded an arrangement with Czech TV on frequency interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14734 Again, 98.7 only became viable after extensive discussions that the CBC initiated with Industry Canada to come up with acceptable technical parameters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14735 These are not frequencies that have simply been found. Rather, they have been carved out after an extensive and complicated process of research, negotiation and coordination. Based on all the work involved this past year, I think we have tested the limits of what the region can provide when it comes to FM frequencies suitable for Radio One. As a result, we do not think there are any more rabbits to be pulled from the hat. This is it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14736 MR. STURSBERG: So why do these applications matter? They matter because CBC matters to Canadians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14737 Radio One is unique in the Canadian broadcasting system with its distinct blend of national and local programming, with thought‑provoking current affairs, news, music, drama and arts programs. We interview local actors and musicians and politicians, business people, visual artists, civic leaders, researchers, charities, teachers; people who affect the community and help to create the quality of life that makes B.C. so unique.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14738 Radio One links Canadians across the country and brings the stories of British Columbians to other Canadians in their own words.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14739 Radio One also strengthens the connection the people of B.C. have to their own communities. There is no better demonstration of this connection than the fact that some 1,500 people took the time to register their support for our application for Vancouver and over 300 in support of our application for Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14740 To conclude, our goal is to provide as near universal access to our Radio One service as we possibly can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14741 When CBU first went on the air in 1938 the AM band was the only means of accomplishing that goal. For many years it remained the most effective means of accomplishing that goal, but fast forward 70 years and that is simply no longer the case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14742 As we have explained to you today, 40 percent of people in Vancouver say they have a problem receiving Radio One. AM is a medium in deep decline and our listeners are aging because we are on AM. If we don't make the transition to FM, Radio One won't survive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14743 Section 3(1)(m)(vii)of the Broadcasting Act requires that the programming provided by the CBC:
"...be made available throughout Canada by the most appropriate and efficient means and as resources become available for the purpose." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14744 MR. STURSBERG: This is part of our mandate and part of yours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14745 We have a responsibility to the people of Vancouver to ensure that they have access to a quality signal. We also have a responsibility to the people of Nanaimo to include them as part of our Radio One island service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14746 We also believe the Commission has a responsibility to support CBC in meeting this aspect of its mandate, and over the last 10 to 15 years the Commission has done just that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14747 We now have an opportunity to make the move to FM. It's a move we must make to ensure the future of the Radio One service for the people of this region.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14748 This concludes our presentation and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stursberg, and your team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14750 I will lead the questions and then my colleagues will add their questions. And I think what I would like to do is to start with each frequency first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14751 Just on the 104.1 FM frequency that the goal of which is to serve Nanaimo from Victoria, you kindly have provided your program guides, schedules for the two ‑‑ for Vancouver and for Victoria currently, and they are in your deficiency letter of November the 28th.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14752 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want to compare the two programs. And from my comparison, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I see that there are two programs that are different and they are the two programs in the key periods of the ‑‑ which is morning drive and the afternoon drive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14753 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14754 MS McGUIRE: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14755 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And you have also provided a description of the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14756 And the two programs account for ‑‑ when I count it up it's like between 22.5 to 27.5 hours of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14757 MS McGUIRE: I didn't count it up but, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14758 THE CHAIRPERSON: That sounds okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14759 Now, of the ‑‑ and so of the programming ‑‑ I'm sorry ‑‑ the broadcast week has 126 hours. So about 90 to 100 hours of programming is the same for Vancouver or Victoria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14760 MS McGUIRE: Yes, although it would also be included in the news part of the broadcast schedule as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14761 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, what ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14762 MS McGUIRE: In the news ‑‑ in the news part of the broadcast schedule as well in addition to programs. It would be reflected in our current affairs program and also in our news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14763 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the current affairs ‑‑ maybe this is how I should ask the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14764 Then of the programming that you have identified as being different for Vancouver and Victoria, say for the morning drive for Victoria you have got On The Island and in the afternoon drive you have got All Points West, while for the Vancouver programming you have got the Early Edition and in the afternoon you have On The Coast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14765 So when you were referring just now to the news, are they in these distinct programs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14766 MS McGUIRE: Yes, we have newscasts that are ‑‑ I don't think they are shown on this schedule but they are in through the schedule through the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14767 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14768 So is including the newscasts that's through the day, how many hours do you think we would add of programming that would be different?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14769 MR. STURSBERG: How much is Victoria ‑‑ is your question just how many hours in Victoria are different from how many hours in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14770 Is that the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14772 MR. STURSBERG: So we can just look here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14773 It's two hours in the morning and then in the afternoon the drive show in Vancouver is slightly longer, if I am not mistaken ‑‑ it's two and a half hours. So that's three ‑‑ sorry ‑‑ so that's five hours. Yes, plus the newscasts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14774 So throw in what, another half an hour, five and a half hours, something like that? Oh, it's 45 minutes a day. I stand corrected. So five hours and 45 times five, basically, is 25 ‑‑ I'm doing it in my head for you ‑‑ it would be 27 and a half, roughly 28‑and‑a‑half hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14775 Does that sound about right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14776 THE CHAIRPERSON: 28, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14777 MR. STURSBERG: 28‑and‑a‑half hours would be different during ‑‑ as between the two.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14778 MS McGUIRE: The other point I would make is the peak of the audience listens in morning and drive, and the other part of the equation is the reflection of Nanaimo up into the national programs and giving it a voice in the national space of CBC as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14779 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So adding in what you have brought up, as you know the news through the day, we would say add another hour to the calculation that I have, so we will go up to a maximum of 28.5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14780 And of that 28.5 hours how much of that programming and which programming is specifically local to Nanaimo or will be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14781 MR. STURSBERG: Well, I think we would have to see how much of that would be specific to Nanaimo. But I think the important point to bear in mind is that the 28‑and‑a‑half hours is the local programming block. So now what will happen is that Nanaimo will get reflected into the 28‑and‑a‑half hours that is available to Victoria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14782 That's what we are saying, one of the things that we will do is we will setup a sort of bureau in Nanaimo precisely so that we can actually serve Nanaimo. But how many hours it's going to be at, I don't think we are sort of through yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14783 I would say one other thing, just to put Nanaimo in a little bit of a context for you, we have been preoccupied by Nanaimo not just in this proceeding but we have been preoccupied by Nanaimo more generally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14784 There are a lot of important places around the country that do not have local CBC radio. And we were asked, in fact, by the parliamentary committee some time back to say what we should think we should do. It's not just Nanaimo. It's Hamilton. It's a whole series of places.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14785 And so we put together a proposal that we said, "Here it is and this is what it would cost for us to serve all of these places. And one of the places that we think it's important to serve is Nanaimo and Nanaimo after all is the second‑largest city on Vancouver Island." Now, we haven't yet received, you know, a reply from the government as to whether they are prepared to finance it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14786 But I only say this because if we get the 104.1 frequency for Nanaimo then not only can we reflect Nanaimo better in the Victoria, and service for Vancouver Island as a whole, but then if we were to get the financing from the government we could actually put a full local service into Nanaimo that would be as different for Nanaimo as Victoria is for Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14787 But if we don't get the 104 frequency and were the government then to say, "Fine, we are happy to finance it" we couldn't move ahead with Nanaimo at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I will just stick with what we have right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14789 Then when you were saying that, say if you were broadcasting from Victoria some of the programming that is created for the Victoria station, you know, you would throw in some perhaps local reflection for Nanaimo. Now, if you couldn't do that is it possible to do that with the Vancouver programming and why not?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14790 MR. MICHEL: Madam Chair, we currently right now serve Nanaimo out of Vancouver ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14792 MR. MICHEL: ‑‑ because that's the only signal that penetrates it. And just so that if you would allow me with your indulgence to clarify how the situation works right now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14793 The Victoria station is mandated to serve the entire island, and it does so through its programming in the 28 hours or so that we do every single week. Nanaimo is the orphan because our signal does not get there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14794 And so if we are successful in getting this frequency then immediately we would start serving the people of Nanaimo with Nanaimo stories. We are going to open a bureau there and also start putting resources there so that we can do regular reports out of there and it would be proportionate to the mix of the entire island.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14795 There is about 700,000 people that live on the island, 350 or so live in Victoria, about 90 or so and growing in Nanaimo. And so you know the coverage that we would be reflective of Nanaimo would be commensurate with the population there as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14796 MR. STURSBERG: But I think you will appreciate that what Johnny says is exactly right in terms of the relative proportions. But when you have Nanaimo sitting out there and we are trying to service the whole of Vancouver and Greater Vancouver is now what, I don't know, two and a half million people, something like that, and then you have got 90,000 people, you can see that the ratios are completely different. Whereas if it's 100,000 to 750 for the 100,000 and two and a half million the likelihood of Nanaimo being served is limited.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14797 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14798 MS McGUIRE: The only other thing I would add is you will see that CBC Radio in Vancouver really focuses on community and the more local we are, the better service we give to the people living here. And that has been our strategy with this show and I think it has served the people of Vancouver very well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14799 THE CHAIRPERSON: Still staying with 104.1, I note that you have said in your deficiency response and then again here that you feel that it is a very poor frequency for Vancouver and, you know, what can we say about all of the commercial broadcasters who are applying for this very ‑‑ it doesn't seem so poor to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14800 And so when I compare what I have been listening to for the past few days on how many people want 104.1 for a brand new service and then, you know, I look at the use for 104.1 in your application to serve Nanaimo important, but 90,000 people versus say the Vancouver population, even if it were half, say a million, and then it's for maybe 30 hours of programming that's going to be different, I can't help but feel that is it an underutilization of 104.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14801 MR. STURSBERG: Well, I think that is exactly the question that is in front of you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14802 Our view would be, of course, that on the one hand I don't think anybody who has come before you who is asking for 104.1 for Vancouver would dispute the fact that it's a poor signal for Vancouver. It only picks up about 50 percent of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14803 But then beyond that I think the other question ‑‑ and it's an ideal signal for Nanaimo. Nobody doubts that. But if you think about it this other way, right now in Vancouver I think there are about 30 radio stations. So Vancouver is very well served. And what everybody is proposing to do, and I'm sure they will be ‑‑ they are all great applications, but what they are proposing to do is add another music station to a market that is exceptionally well served in terms of total number of radio stations and in terms of the total number of radio music stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14804 So you have got 30 sitting here in Vancouver whereas in Nanaimo what you have right now is you have two radio stations plus one community station, if I'm not mistaken.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14805 So our view is that as between the two, an impaired frequency for a very well‑served market versus an excellent frequency for a seriously under‑served market, that's obviously where we think you should go. But that's precisely the balancing act that you have to work out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14806 THE CHAIRPERSON: I had wanted to ask this question later but it's going to keep coming up in my mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14807 You know, as part of the public record Vista has filed the latest BBM reports and, you know a number of applicants have filed the rankings. And consistently, 690 AM CBC is ranked number two, the second‑most listened to station in Vancouver. The other number one ranked, I think, is AM 980, which is again also on AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14808 So you know my ‑‑ I guess you can guess my question is what ‑‑ given the congestion in the Vancouver market and the scarcity of FM resources what more ‑‑ is this the best that we can do? What more can CBC achieve at the ‑‑ what more is to be gained by having CBC have more FM stations and what would be lost to the private broadcasters?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14809 MR. STURSBERG: Well, essentially with respect to 88.1 nothing would be lost to the private broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14810 But I think you can put it the opposite way around, which is that certainly the fact that the CBC is consistently number two and in the morning show, if I'm not mistaken, number one in the market; despite the fact that huge parts of the market can't actually get it. So if you were to say ‑‑ if you were to put it on a proper FM signal so that the market in its entirety could get it, then what would happen is the audience for it would increase.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14811 So the downside, we have said, you know roughly it looks to us like about 40 percent of the market can't actually get the signal properly. That's about 850,000 people in Vancouver, 850,000 people who cannot get what amounts to the most popular morning show and the second‑most popular show in the market. So you know, our general view is that that's the right thing to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14812 But the other thing that really troubles us, and I think it comes out very clearly in the graph that we showed you, which was this FM tuning versus AM tuning graph, the blue and yellow one, we stay on AM we will die.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14813 And you know, we think that in a way that one of the underlying policy issues here is that all Canadians pay for the CBC. They all pay for it and that, you know, as a result we think that in fairness they should all have access to it and they should have access to it fully now and they should have access to it fully going forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14814 And so you know we are just very, very concerned that if we can't make this shift from AM to FM that, you know, we are going to find ourselves in a circumstance where it's going to be a slow slide to absolutely nowhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14815 MR. CARNOVALE: If I might add there, you actually have the ability to licence a total of six stations using five frequencies as a result of this proceeding. So Radio One in Vancouver on 88.1, a private station in Abbotsford or Chilliwack, a station on 98.7 in Port Moody or Vancouver because they are not technically mutually exclusive for our application for Gabriola Island. There is the proposal from Pattison for 100.5, an AM to FM conversion, and the 104.1 Radio One in Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14816 THE CHAIRPERSON: I missed the middle two; 88.1, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14817 MR. CARNOVALE: 88.1 is Radio One.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14818 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14819 MR. CARNOVALE: One of the Chilliwack or Abbotsford applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14820 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which frequency would you identify for that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14821 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, I know there is one application on 207 ‑‑ which is 89.3, channel 207.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14822 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see, and then ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14823 MR. CARNOVALE: So in effect you could licence in Vancouver itself a station on 98.7 and Pattison on 100.5, as an example, and still grant CBC the three frequencies it's asking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14824 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14825 I will go back to the frequencies. Your letter of deficiency response to letter of November 28th I found very helpful. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14826 And I don't know whether you need to refresh your memory with this first answer where you conclude that the second ‑‑ on page 2, the first complete paragraph you say:
"Based on our analysis..."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14827 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then you go on to say:
"...and under this condition the Nanaimo application is severable from the Vancouver Gabriola Island application". (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14828 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I just want to get a clear idea of what is severable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14829 So if you were to retain the use of 690 AM what is severable? Then the 104.1 application is severable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14830 MR. STURSBERG: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14831 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And what if you were to get 690 AM plus 88.1. Would 97 ‑‑ I'm sorry ‑‑ 89.7 be severable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14832 MR. STURSBERG: 98.7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14833 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14834 MR. STURSBERG: Sunshine Coast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14835 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Sunshine Coast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14836 MR. STURSBERG: I suppose it would in principle be severable, but you know our general view would be that the difficulty we will confront is that the residents of Sunshine Coast ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14837 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14838 MR. STURSBERG: ‑‑ will find themselves in the same pickle as the residents of Vancouver, which is that they will be on an AM frequency that will be in deep decline and many of them will not be able to get it as we go forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14839 So in terms of serving them properly that's why we would like the 98.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14840 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14841 MR. CARNOVALE: But at the risk of repeating myself, it is not mutually exclusive with the 98.7 applications for Vancouver or Port Moody in any event.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14842 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I might come back to you to discuss that further so that I could understand it better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14843 98.7 is used to serve the Sunshine Coast. Yes, this is my question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14844 When I looked at your contour and perhaps, Mr. Carnovale, if you can help me here ‑‑ I'm looking at the contour map for 98.7 that was revised, that was filed after the Rogers intervention. It's dated January 25 '08.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14845 MR. CARNOVALE: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14846 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, my engineering coach taught me that the Sunshine Coast seems to lie outside of the primary market which is the 3 millivolt contour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14847 MR. CARNOVALE: Sorry, advised outside the ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14848 THE CHAIRPERSON: Outside is not ‑ like Sunshine Coast, you know, when I look at Gibsons Landing, Robert's Creek, it's not within the 3 millivolt contour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14849 MR. CARNOVALE: No, that is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14850 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So how would you ensure that the Sunshine Coast residents would have a sufficient signal?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14851 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, just by eyeballing. If you look at while the 3 millivolt signal falls short of the coastline, just eyeballing it I would say it's somewhere between a millivolt and a millivolt and a half which is still a pretty robust signal for reception. And the signal is traveling just about all over water. So we think it will be an adequate signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14852 Ideally, had we stuck with the original parameters of course it would have been stronger.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14853 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I'm sorry. I missed that last part when you said ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14854 MR. CARNOVALE: Had we been able to stick with the original parameters that we filed prior to the Rogers' opposition, then of course the signal would have been stronger.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14855 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. Thank you, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14856 Now, can you use the 98.7 to serve Nanaimo with ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14857 MR. CARNOVALE: Not ‑‑ in view of the Rogers' opposition, no. There is no way to do it. I could ask Martin to add to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14858 MR. LEVERT: Yes, in fact that was the first scenario we considered at the beginning, but unfortunately we would have caused some theoretical interference to parts of Rogers' protected contours from Victoria station. So they weren't willing to accept that interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14859 And we needed another solution for Nanaimo and the best solution is 104.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14860 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14861 And I take it that even if you used ‑‑ could you use 98.7 to serve Nanaimo if you used a power that's lower than a Class C?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14862 MR. LEVERT: Even the first set of parameters we filed was not a Class C. It was already a fairly low power station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14863 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14864 MR. LEVERT: But it's close enough and the site that we have chosen is good enough to provide a real solid signal into Nanaimo from Gabriola Island.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14865 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14866 MR. LEVERT: But it's not a full Class C station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14867 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14868 And changing ‑‑ an alternate site for the transmitter to use, it still would make 98.7 not usable to serve Nanaimo; is that correct? I'm sorry, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14869 MR. LEVERT: Can you repeat it, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14870 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you put the transmitter on a different site, not on Gabriola Island, you know, could you use 98.7 to serve Nanaimo that way?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14871 MR. LEVERT: No, because Rogers won't ‑‑ will still intervene against us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14872 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14873 What about the combination if you got ‑‑ if you retained 690 AM and had 88.1 AM? Would you be able to use some solution, like short spacing your own ‑‑ some frequency to serve one of the Vancouver stations to serve Nanaimo? Is that an option?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14874 MR. CARNOVALE: We tossed around ideas like that but the fact is that we would end up creating significant areas of mutual interference outside Vancouver or outside Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14875 There is no magic bullet here. We brainstormed this for hours and I was devil's advocate with my own people saying what about this, what about that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14876 THE CHAIRPERSON: M'hm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14877 MR. LEVERT: And one really important difference with 98.7 for Gabriola Island is that the interference zones that are discussed and presented are theoretical because it is based on future maximum parameters for a hypothetical move from Rogers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14878 So as we have proposed the first sets of parameters and these, the second set as well, we are not creating interference to the existing station. But all the other frequencies that we looked at would create interference to existing services. So that's a big difference between the two.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14879 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14880 Let's go ‑‑ let's take a look at your ‑‑ back to your letter, your deficiency letter, your middle paragraph on page 2:
"The Sunshine Coast topography makes it very difficult to cover." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14881 THE CHAIRPERSON: I take it it's by FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14882 Since writing this letter which is three months ago has your position changed? Have any other options come up that you have reconsidered that may make say nesting an option for serving the Sunshine Coast, or any other options?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14883 MR. CARNOVALE: Nesting in the sense of even lower power FM?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14884 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or contour within the contour if you had the ‑‑ yes, just for a lower power.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14885 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, in a sense it already is nested, in that the topography prevents the 88.1 signal from adequately serving the Sunshine Coast even though on paper it encloses it. So this is ‑‑ the best way of serving that area is to shoot across the water from Gabriola Island.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14886 We even tossed around the idea of a synchronous repeater on 88.1 with our Vancouver transmitter and the problem with that is we will then destroy parts of our coverage area somewhere between say the centre of the Sunshine Coast and West Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14887 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14888 MR. CARNOVALE: So it just wouldn't work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14889 Synchronous repeaters only work well if you are able to position your interference over an area where there is no population, and we can't do that here. It's also very difficult to actually maintain the location of that interference, especially because the propagation conditions are going to change over the water.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. The Sunshine Coast is currently covered by your AM signal, isn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14891 MR. CARNOVALE: Yes, but there are, as we have indicated, there are problem areas all throughout the coverage area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14892 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You know one of the problems ‑‑ I know it is topography and British Columbia. And you know one of the ‑‑ when we are coming up with all these permutations thinking of what combination of FM frequencies would cover the area, doesn't it raise the question, the general question of is FM frequency, use of FM frequency the most appropriate and effective means of transmitting the signal for these areas?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14893 MR. CARNOVALE: Yes, it is. I think the key point, as Richard pointed out earlier, is that AM is a declining medium.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14894 A couple weeks ago I met with a gentleman from Radio France, and similarly in the U.K. they do not have their primary public broadcasting service on the AM band, period. Radio France maintains medium wave and long wave transmitters, long wave for Radio periphique. And they only do that because of tradition, but it is not providing the main service. It is a secondary service, not the primary service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14895 Just about anywhere you go in the world the public broadcaster has switched away from FM and ‑‑ or AM, and they have had the opportunity to do that. We have been trying to do this for over 10 years in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14896 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but that's not an argument for most appropriate and effective means of transmission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14897 I understand why everyone wants to be on FM but when the question is what is the most effective means of transmission I don't ‑‑ that's not ‑‑ you know that's not really the ‑‑ I don't find your answer really addresses that question of what is the most appropriate and effective means.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14898 MR. STURSBERG: Can I just ‑‑ because maybe we are talking at cross purposes here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14900 MR. STURSBERG: I think we take a very simple view, which is that the most effective means is the means that is going to give the highest level of access to Radio One, to the citizens of British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14901 It really isn't more complicated than that and for all the reasons that we have said; you know that the AM signal is deeply impaired in Vancouver, that the AM tuning is falling off and eventually you know it's likely that it will go away all together. And there is a good reason why it is that, you know, pretty much everybody wants to convert from AM to FM. It's not ‑‑ you are not ‑‑ I don't think you are getting a lot of people asking you to convert from FM to AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14902 THE CHAIRPERSON: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14903 MR. STURSBERG: So it's a question of service and, at the end of the day, what we want to do is we just want to ensure that everybody in British Columbia, particularly here and in Vancouver Island, has the best possible signal that we can offer them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14904 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14905 Moving onto the 88.1 channel, on page 2 of your deficiency letter, it would be the very last paragraph where you are talking about starting with 95 kilowatts, moving to 100 as soon as the situation would permit, could you explain what is the situation right now that prevents you from going ‑‑ starting right off the bat with 100 kilowatts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14906 MR. CARNOVALE: We wanted to contain the amount of interference that might occur to Czech TV. So it was just a question of reaching the compromise where we could provide a really solid service for the Vancouver core market and minimize the amount of interference to Czech.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14907 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14908 MR. LEVERT: And there is another station in Abbotsford that has been approved but it's not on the air yet but we have to protect that station as well. So at 100 kilowatts ERP we would just destroy that signal, so that's why we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14909 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So when do you think that ‑‑ what is your best estimate of when you could move to 100 kilowatts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14910 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, certainly not before the digital transmission deadline for planning purposes of August 31st, 2011. So it really depends as to whether that date remains real or whether it gets delayed.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So you think it will be delayed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14911 MR. CARNOVALE: No, it's entirely in your hands.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14912 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's why I asked the question.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14913 THE CHAIRPERSON: Back to your letter again on your ‑‑ the last paragraph on page 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14914 I believe you were talking about ‑‑ yes, you are talking about the 88.1 frequency for Vancouver. And you went into why a nested approach would not work. You say:
"We rejected a nested FM approach in this market for three reasons. First, we can cost effectively replicate..." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14915 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's the first reason. Do you have an estimate of the cost difference and if you had to use nesting to cover your current AM coverage ‑‑ or nesting is simply technically not feasible?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14916 MR. CARNOVALE: When you look it is just technically not feasible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14918 MR. CARNOVALE: When you look at the ‑‑ well, let's put it this way. The best frequency anybody has been able to come up with is 104.1 that reaches about 50 percent of the coverage area of the city itself so that just does not ‑‑ wouldn't even meet the definition of a viable nested FM in our view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14919 And if I can elaborate?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14920 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14921 MR. CARNOVALE: Part of our signal problems start ‑‑ we have signal problems in the east end of the city of Vancouver and that is in large part because of the actually fairly directional pattern. Even though 690 is supposedly a clear channel it's a four‑tower directional array and it beams northeast. So the signal starts to cutback as you go east in the city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14922 So it would be pointless to use, for example, 104.1 and have the area of interference on 104.1 be exactly in the area where we are trying to solve the AM interference issue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14923 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And on your re‑broadcasting transmitters of CBU, and you had answered in your letter that you will after testing ‑‑ it's only after that that you can tell which ones you will no longer need. Is that still the case?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14924 MR. CARNOVALE: Yes. We do have several other transmitters which when you look at them in their totality actually provide, along with the frequencies we are asking for today, a very good continuum of coverage, and starting from Chilliwack in the east all the way up the Campbell River in the northwest.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14925 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now, if you have ‑‑ if you retain 690 AM and were given 88.1 FM what would be your position then, like what situation would you be left in? Would you be ‑‑ how would you cover the terrain that you hope to cover?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14926 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, of course the Sunshine Coast would then be dependent on AM and we would actually never be able to shutdown 690 in that event.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14927 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14928 MR. CARNOVALE: Again, the 98.7 can coexist with either Port Moody or Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14929 So from that perspective we don't actually see it as being an issue for the licensing of Vancouver stations on that frequency.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14930 THE CHAIRPERSON: Some of the intervention letters that we received actually were from citizens who were concerned with the loss of their CBC AM service if you were to convert to FM. And I know that, you know, we are here talking about also the flip side, that the people who cannot receive CBC unless you convert.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14931 So do you want to address how you balance that? Is it just a matter of numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14932 MR. STURSBERG: We are conscious of that and, you know, we have read their letters and people who are in particular parts of British Columbia and I believe there is somebody in the Yukon, if I am not mistaken, that had written in, and people who are in boats who find you know the AM signal for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14933 But you know, at the end of the day, we say to ourselves, okay, what on balance is going to be the fairest thing and we think given the number of people who are unserved now in Vancouver and given the trends as to where AM utilization is going, that it's unfortunate that some people who are currently getting service on AM whether they are in boats or in other parts would not get it in future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14934 We think that the advantage to the greater number has to outweigh the smaller number that is disadvantaged.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14935 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, two things. What would you say to someone who says, well, you know what? CBC 690 AM, you are a go to station. You know, your listeners are loyal. Your audience share evidences that. You don't need to go anywhere. In fact, they will seek you out. They will find you even though you are on the AM dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14936 What do you say ‑‑ what would be your response?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14937 MR. STURSBERG: Well, our response would be the same as what we have been talking about this afternoon, which is we think it unfair to people in Vancouver that they pay for the CBC Radio One service and for many of them they cannot get it properly. And we think that going forward what will happen is that they will be ‑‑ it will be increasingly difficult for people to get the service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14938 We would like to maintain it as not just as a great service that is widely listened to throughout the Vancouver area, but one that will be listened to even more and will be of greater service to the people in British Columbia as we go forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to add something?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14940 MS McGUIRE: The only other point is that as a public broadcaster we feel the obligation to serve all Canadians and with the shifting and demographics in terms of those actually listening to AM radio you are not only ‑‑ you are cutting off access in yet another way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14941 THE CHAIRPERSON: One thing to follow up is on the power increase. So in your deficiency response you said that you would:
"...respond to signal deficiencies by increasing power to serve those listeners who are not covered by the CBC signal." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14942 THE CHAIRPERSON: How do you propose to serve these listeners if the power increase does not work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14943 MR. LEVERT: I think that the power increase that you are talking about is for the Victoria transmitter. So this one we are looking into it and it's possible to increase the signal, the signal power, and it's to improve signal quality, availability and strength in the southern part of Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14944 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14945 MR. LEVERT: We have been operating Espace musique the same way for the past years and it has proven that it is a good way to go and signal availability is much higher that way.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14947 I will ask: Do any of my colleagues have any questions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14948 Yes, Commissioner Duncan, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14949 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I don't know why I want to tread into this, it seems so complicated, but it is important that I understand. So bear with me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14950 The Chair asked two questions, just these last couple ones, and I am looking at the May 29 '07 that's to do with the 88.1 frequency. And so if I am understanding that correctly, that would be broadcasting from Gabriola Island. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14951 MR. CARNOVALE: 88.1 would broadcast from Mount Seymour, from Gabriola Island 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast, 104.1 to serve Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14952 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So how much ‑‑ when you did your survey you surveyed ‑‑ it seemed to be the Vancouver market and you concluded that 850,000 of the people in Vancouver couldn't receive your signal which of course I can see is concerning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14953 How many of the ‑‑ did you survey the people on the Sunshine Coast as well? Were they included in that survey?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14954 MR. STURSBERG: No. When we say 850,000 what we rely upon was ‑‑ as we mentioned we did a survey of people in Vancouver and asked them what the quality of reception was and 40 percent said that they couldn't get it. And then when we did the technical survey that Ray talked about earlier on where we went and did these measurements, approximately 40 percent of the buildings that we measured you couldn't get a proper signal inside the building.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14955 And we just said, okay, it looks like for about both sides 40 percent. We just took 40 percent of the total population of Vancouver to get to the number, you know, that 850,000 not served. But we didn't do similar studies for the Sunshine Coast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14956 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Maybe if I could just ask my question this way then; if I understood you to say you are looking at increasing the power of the service out of Victoria and that would service part of the southern part of Vancouver, is that what you said?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14957 MR. LEVERT: It should improve, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14958 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: It would improve; the southern part?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14959 MR. LEVERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14960 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So that would service some of your 850,000 people, right, would it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14961 MR. LEVERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14962 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: It would improve the signal for them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14963 MR. LEVERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14964 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: And so then I want to know if you had the 88.1 in Gabriola Island, or Gabriola Island is which?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14965 MR. LEVERT: 98.7 and 104.1 for Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14966 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes, I am trying to stay away from the 104.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14967 MR. LEVERT: Okay, and 98.7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14968 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: How many of the 850,000 people would be served if that signal was ‑‑ if you had that service extending into the Sunshine Coast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14969 MR. LEVERT: Can you repeat it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14970 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I guess I am confused. I can tell by the look on your face.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14971 MR. CARNOVALE: I don't think there is a quantitative answer that we can give you at this point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14972 I should also clarify that when we talk about increasing the power of the Victoria transmitter that's ‑‑ clearly that does not give, again, the pertinent signal to that part of the service area. It's just that what we have discovered in this marketplace is that where ‑‑ there are many instances where the Vancouver signal is not receivable but the Victoria signal is, as a result of the topography. So it's just a way of increasing the availability but, unfortunately, that would not always provide the pertinent signal to that particular area, which is why you know the Gabriola Island transmitter is the most appropriate solution.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14973 MR. STURSBERG: I mean, I think at the end of the day it's you know what we are trying to do. We are just trying to make sure that the local service is appropriate to the local area served.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14974 So the Victoria local service is really not terribly much interest to people living in Vancouver and vice versa. By the same token, the Victoria service and the Vancouver Island service generally is of much more interest to people in Nanaimo than is the Vancouver service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14975 So what we are really trying to do at the end of the day is map the frequencies and the utilization of the frequencies into how the sort of social, geographical and cultural regions fall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14976 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: And so there is no solution other than your having the 104.1, in your view then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14977 MR. CARNOVALE: For Nanaimo, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14978 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Yes, but that uses the signal for Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14979 MR. CARNOVALE: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14980 MR. STURSBERG: That's our view.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14981 If you want to bring Nanaimo into the Vancouver Island area and you want Nanaimo to be on the air in terms of its local concerns and interests, there is no other solution but 104.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14982 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So you made the distinction between a news bureau in Nanaimo versus a full service if you had the budget.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14983 MR. STURSBERG: Yes, that's what I was mentioning earlier on, Commissioner, that what we would do if we get 104.1 is we will put ‑‑ we will put a bureau into Nanaimo and then that will feed information into the Vancouver Island service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14984 We were asked what would be involved in extending full local service to currently un‑served cities of consequence in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14985 So we did a piece on this and we provided it to the federal government, to the Department of Heritage and to the parliamentary committee. And we said there are a lot of important places that are not getting full local service. By full I mean the same kind of things, so you know whatever it is, 28 hours a week of local service for the morning shows and the drive home shows. They are important towns whether it is Hamilton or whether it is Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14986 And if the federal government were prepared to finance that, then we would like to open a full local service, not just a local bureau but a full local service in Nanaimo, in Hamilton and various other places I mentioned. But that's why I was saying earlier on that the 104.1 signal is important to us because we are at the case that the federal government would finally say, yes, we believe it's important to have full local service there. If we didn't have 104.1 we could never actually move up to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14987 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: When you defined fully unserved cities what was the cut off population wise?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14988 MR. STURSBERG: I can't remember, but if you like we will be happy to actually send you a copy of the ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14989 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I'm just curious to know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14990 MR. STURSBERG: I can't remember offhand what the cut off was, but there is quite a lot of them. Actually, it's surprising how many places there are in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14991 I think there is about 20 in English Canada; is that right? Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14992 At any event, if you like we will be happy to send you a copy of it and you have a look at it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14993 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Sure, that would be interesting. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14994 That's it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Stursberg, I would hate to be in your shoes and have to identify which are the cities of consequence and which are not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14996 MR. STURSBERG: We do it by size. It's a purely semantic thing. We make no judgments on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14997 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, then I would always lose.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14998 Okay. Now, any guess as to whether you will get the funding?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14999 MR. STURSBERG: I don't know. I honestly don't know. All I have heard so far is that ‑‑ I think it got caught up a little bit in this mandate review that the parliamentary committee is doing. And I have heard rumours to the effect that the mandate review may be coming down on Thursday or Friday this week but, like you, I have read the papers and it says there may be dissenting views and secondary opinions and this and that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15000 But you know we just think ‑‑ we think it's very important. We think it's a matter of fairness that, you know, all of the people in the country who are in cities of reasonable size can have a proper local CBC service. And we would like to do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15001 Even if I think ‑‑ I think, frankly, even if the mandate review committee doesn't even comment on it or some parts of it and say they don't think it's a good idea or they say whatever, we think it's important and we'd like to continue to pursue it to the extent that we can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15002 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously, like all applications, this is very important to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15003 This application is quite complicated for all of the technical issues. So, I would like to ‑‑ if I can beg your indulgence, I would like to call a 10‑minute break right now and would you mind coming back after the break, just so ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15004 MR. STURSBERG: Sure, absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15005 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ we make sure all the areas are covered.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15006 MR. STURSBERG: With pleasure, yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15008 So, we'll be back at four, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15009 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1546 / Suspension à 1546
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1607 / Reprise à 1607
LISTNUM 1 \l 15010 THE CHAIRPERSON: I apologize. We took a bit longer than we thought to just clarify the questions we had in our mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15011 And one question we would like some help to clarify is your comment, Mr. Carnovale, that if you were ‑‑ if 98.7 were available to you that it would still be available for the Vancouver applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15012 Can you explain that and explain how it is available for use for both.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15013 MR. CARNOVALE: Yes, I'd be happy to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15014 We exchanged coordination letters with Industry Canada and the applicants and we indicated our willingness to accept a zone of interference, the largest part of which would be over water in any event. So, in our view, it can co‑exist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15015 Now, we haven't had confirmation back from the other applicants, but it's clearly on file with them and with the CRTC. So, there's kind of an implied acceptance of the notion, but I think that, you know, you're right in clarifying it, but they can co‑exist, our use on Gabriola Island and the two proposed utilizations, Vancouver and Port Moody.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15016 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, the two applicants who have specifically identified 98.7 is Mr. McBride for Port Moody only and the Alberta numbered company who today is accepting a much reduced power.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15017 So, are you referring to only those two applicants and potential users of 98.7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15018 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, I believe they're the only two who have filed on that frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, that 98.7 would be available for use in that Port Moody corridor or at a much reduced power.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15020 And on that basis, and only on that basis, could they co‑exist with your use of 98.7 to serve the Sunshine Coast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15021 MR. CARNOVALE: Well, I'll ask Martin to clarify the issue of the reduced power. I believe the reduced power is not on account ‑‑ (off mic)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15022 I'll ask Martin to clarify the issue about reduced power. For the Vancouver application, my belief is they're reducing power because of Rogers, not because of CBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15023 MR. LEVERT: That's correct. And it's in the public file in the other room. So, they had ‑‑ Port Moody had received their technical acceptance and there's no problem with us, so, they both can co‑exist, us and the Port Moody application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15024 The Vancouver application has received a non‑acceptance with comment from Industry Canada, but this is due to Rogers intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15025 We have coordinated our use and their use and it's fine, both can co‑exist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15026 MR. CARNOVALE: The actual Industry Canada evaluation is dated February 18th and the summary paragraph referring to the Rogers objection is at the bottom of that page.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, the use of that 98.7 for the Vancouver applicant would be subject to the intervention of Rogers and the reduced power, it's just that you have cleared the way but you're not intervening, or you've laid out what is acceptable for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15028 MR. CARNOVALE: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15029 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. I believe ‑‑ yes, Commissioner Duncan has a question too. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15030 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I just want to confirm then that if you were given the licence for 88.1 that that would allow you to serve the 850,000 homes that are not served with a quality signal right now in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15031 MR. STURSBERG: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15032 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Okay, thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15033 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15034 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Menzies, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15035 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I'm just wondering if you have ‑‑ you might not have this on hand, but if you could tell us or supply us with some historical data on your audience share and the way it breaks down, this is in terms of your point that your audience is older and may die with FM and there won't be anything left because I was looking at your ‑‑ you have a 38 per cent in 65 plus and you have nothing in 12‑17. So, I understand that, but what I'd like to do is get some data historically to see what that was like 10 years ago to help me understand whether this is a current trend or if this trend always exists with your audience; in other words, that you always have an older audience and people, as they move through life, just learn to love the CBC more and more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15036 MR. STURSBERG: Yeah, I'm just...
LISTNUM 1 \l 15037 Do you have some data on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15038 MR. CANNON: Yes, we have some data that will compare fall 1990, which is going back 17 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15039 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15040 MR. CANNON: Basically in 1990, 48 per cent of our listening was from the 50 plus and in 2007, 71 per cent of our listening is from the 50 plus and that's over the course of the week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15041 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sorry, 1990 was 48 per cent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15042 MR. CANNON: 48 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15043 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: 2007 was...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15044 MR. CANNON: 71 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15045 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: 71 per cent, that's plus 50?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15046 MR. CANNON: Pardon?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15047 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Is that plus 50?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15048 MR. CANNON: Plus 50, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15049 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I wonder what that's like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15050 MR. STURSBERG: Jennifer was just reminding me that we've done a lot of these transitions from AM to FM and when we do those transitions from AM to FM the average age of the audience falls, for the reasons that we talked about earlier on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15051 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sorry, I couldn't ‑‑ I have this little difficulty hearing you. Could you just ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15052 MR. STURSBERG: I'm sorry. I said that we've done a lot of these transitions from AM to FM in the past and when we do that then the average age of the listening audience falls for the reasons that we talked about earlier on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15053 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: How much?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15054 MR. STURSBERG: Depends on the market I think. But if you like, we'll run you up ‑‑ I don't think we have the numbers with us, no. But we'll send them to you, if you like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15055 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Has your audience grown every time you've done this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15056 MR. CANNON: Our audience has grown. In that actual third piece that Jennifer gave you earlier, it shows the shares that we ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15057 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sorry, I'm having difficulty hearing you, maybe...
LISTNUM 1 \l 15058 MR. CANNON: Okay. In that third piece attachment there that Jennifer gave you earlier, it shows our shares in our AM markets compared to our shares in the FM markets and we do ‑‑ we have higher shares among the younger listeners uniformly in the FM markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15059 MR. STURSBERG: But I don't think that was the question. The question was, if I understand the question correctly, that when we make a transition from AM to FM does the total number of listeners apart from their age composition increase on average? Was that the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15060 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes, that was the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15061 MR. STURSBERG: We don't have it with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15062 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes, you don't have to answer it right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15063 MR. STURSBERG: Yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15064 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: But if you could ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15065 MR. STURSBERG: Yeah, we'll send it along to you. Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15066 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15067 That's all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15068 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15069 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Stursberg, CBC panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15070 You provided us with a graph showing a decline in FM tuning ‑‑ I should say the decline in AM tuning as it's been displaced by FM tuning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15071 Is this specific to listeners tuning into CBC, or is it reflective of the fact that many of the commercial stations over the last, I think you've got a 30‑year chart here, have moved from AM to FM?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15072 MR. STURSBERG: Yeah. It's indicative of what's going on in the market as a whole, it's not unique to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15073 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, even after 30 years, it's still 20 per cent of the tuning ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15074 MR. STURSBERG: Still ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15075 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or more than 20 per cent of the tuning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15076 MR. STURSBERG: Still falling.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15077 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is still falling?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15078 MR. STURSBERG: Yeah. It's ‑‑ somebody, I think you were saying earlier on, one of the interesting things at CKNW which does well of course has lost 40 per cent of its share in the last 10 years. So, it's ‑‑ you know, it's a part of this thing. It's a little bit what we were saying earlier on when we were talking about this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15079 You know, everybody for all the same reasons as us is saying to you, please convert me from AM to FM because of precisely the problems we've been talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15080 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is CKNW that you refer to still the No. 1 radio station in Vancouver's market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15081 MR. STURSBERG: It depends on what time of day. They are No. 1 overall, but in the morning we're No. 1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15082 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, they're No. 1 overall but you're No. 1 in the morning, and you're both on the AM in this marketplace; is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15083 MR. STURSBERG: That's correct, yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15084 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, No. 1 and No. 2 are on AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15085 Regarding Radio One's Victoria retransmitter opportunity to provide service to Nanaimo of an enhanced value, are there other possible frequencies for Nanaimo that would technically work in Nanaimo specifically other than 104.1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15086 MR. STURSBERG: My understanding is no, there is not and you may want to expand on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15087 MR. LEVERT: No, that's correct, there is no other suitable frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15088 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15089 MR. STURSBERG: May I add one thing just on Nanaimo, because you asked earlier on about the materials we'd file with the Federal Government and I wandered around a bit in terms of what the cut‑offs were with respect to the size of the cities and places involved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15090 So, fortunately Ted Kennedy who's with us actually has accurate information on this, so I'll pass it along too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15091 The cut‑off was 100,000 people. In the case of Nanaimo, the proposal is to have Nanaimo serve not just Nanaimo but the middle of Vancouver Island which would be a catchment area of about 350,000 people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15092 So, that as I was saying earlier on, what would happen is if we get 104.1, we would move now to put in a small bureau to ensure that Nanaimo news was covered properly and then if the government ‑‑ we were fortunate enough to have the government finance us, to put in a full local service and the local service in Nanaimo would serve 350,000 people in central Vancouver Island.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15093 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, Nanaimo to Campbell River or somewhat south of Nanaimo to somewhat north of Campbell River then; would that be the service area?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15094 MR. STURSBERG: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15095 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15096 That's my questions, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15097 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, I'll just go back. I have to apologize, I think you're repeating many of your answers, but that just goes to the nature of the application and we really do want to understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15098 I believe you have answered me before, but here it is again. What if you were asked to retain your 690 AM and supplement it by 88.1 FM. Is that an acceptable solution to you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15099 MR. STURSBERG: Well, as we said earlier on, the difficulty that we confront with that is that where we would end up is in the greater Vancouver ‑‑ in Vancouver itself 88.1 would be okay, but then for the Sunshine Coast they would find themselves continuing AM which will be in continuous decline, they'll have a lesser quality of service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15100 So, that's more or less where it would end up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15101 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, in the event that we said yes, 88.1 is available, then you would continue to keep your AM service as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15102 MR. STURSBERG: Well, if we had 98.7 we would not, then we would say fine and we would retire the 690.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15103 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, if you had 88.1 plus 98.7, then you would retire 690?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15104 MR. STURSBERG: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15105 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15106 MR. STURSBERG: If I'm not mistaken, I think the Department of Industry would retire it for us, apart from anything else, and then that would become available for whatever other purposes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So, the only frequency severed from your flip then would be 104.1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15108 MR. STURSBERG: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. But if you were only to get 88.1, then you would retain 690?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15110 MR. STURSBERG: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15111 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15112 Well, thank you very, very much for your time and for your patience in answering so many questions and so many different ways and we really appreciate it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15113 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15114 MR. STURSBERG: Do we get our last two minutes?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15115 MR. STURSBERG: Well, we went to all the trouble of preparing two minutes' worth of remarks, so it seemed a shame not to have an opportunity to use it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15116 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm sorry, I forgot. Please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15117 MR. STURSBERG: I promise, I'll keep them to a minute and 30 seconds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15118 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, you don't need to. I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15119 MR. STURSBERG: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15120 So, anyhow, we just wanted to say thank you very much and thank you for your time listening to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15121 Obviously we believe that the approval of these applications for Vancouver and Nanaimo are clearly in the public interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15122 Approval of our applications for 88.1 and 98.7 is vital, as I've said already before, to the future survival of Radio One in the Greater Vancouver area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15123 Making the move to FM will ensure that the Canadians who pay for us can receive the service they pay for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15124 As we've already said on a number of occasions, 40 per cent of the people in Vancouver have told us they can't get a quality signal from Radio One and that situation is only going to get worse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15125 We can't afford to let Radio One become marooned on the AM band which is a medium in decline and cut off the people of Vancouver from an important service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15126 Approval of these applications is essential if we are to properly fulfil our mandate under the Act.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15127 The people of Vancouver have told us this loud and clear, that that's what they want and that's what they need, and you've received over 1,500 letters of support for this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15128 Our proposed use of 88.1 and 98.7 is not technically competitive with any other applicant in this proceeding. 88.1 is a viable frequency for Vancouver because of the interference agreement we were able to make with the owners of Czech TV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15129 Our proposed use of 98.7 to cover the Sunshine Coast area isn't technically competitive with either of the two other applicants also proposing to use 98.7, a point that Ray has made on a number of occasions, one for Port Moody and one for Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15130 We have successfully coordinated with both so that the CBC could co‑exist with one of these applicants on that frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15131 With respect to our Nanaimo application, I just make a couple of points. First, Nanaimo, which is the second largest city on the island, wants the Radio One island service. The only way we can meet this need is through a dedicated frequency, as we've talked about at length. Our 690 AM frequency cannot be recycled for this purpose as at least one other applicant has suggested, 104.1 is the only solution we actually have for Nanaimo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15132 Second, technically speaking 104.1 is a great frequency for Nanaimo and, as we've mentioned, it's a poor frequency for Vancouver. So, almost all of the applicants have acknowledged 104.1 in Vancouver is impaired and it covers only half of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15133 As we said earlier on and we talked about the balancing act you have to strike, the question really to be answered out of this hearing is what's the best use of 104.1? Is it to license another commercial music station in a 30‑station market on an impaired frequency that only covers half the city offering music that is essentially duplicative to what is already available, or is it to award it to someone that will use the full potential of the frequency, that will extend coverage to a city that is under served and that will increase the profile of that community across the island and nationally across the Radio One service?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15134 We believe that Nanaimo needs and deserves this kind of service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15135 Approval of these applications is essential if we're to properly fulfil our mandate under the Act.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15136 So, we thank you very much for your attention and we hope that you agree.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15137 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you again. Thank you for your time and your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15138 So, we'll just move right on to the next applicant, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15139 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Item 16, which is an application by Frank Torres on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 15140 THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourself and your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15141 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 15142 MR. ED TORRES: Good afternoon, Madam Chair. Thank you for hearing our application this afternoon, we know it's been a long day and we appreciate that you're taking the time to hear this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15143 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff, my name is Ed Torres. I'm the President and co‑founder of Skywords Radio and I would like to begin by thanking the Commission for entertaining this application for a new blues format FM radio licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15144 I'd like to take a moment now to introduce our panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15145 Seated to my right is my brother Frank Torres. Frank is the Chief Operations Officer at Skywords. Together we founded Skywords in 1991 and today it's a national radio company with offices in five Canadian major markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15146 Beside Frank is Yves Trottier. Yves is former program director at Couleur FM in Ottawa‑Gatineau and has held various program director positions before joining Skywords as the Director of Operations for Quebec.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15147 Beside me on my left, Robyn Metcalfe, the Vice‑President of Operations ‑‑ pardon me, of Programming at Skywords and also a part owner of this application, and to Robyn's left is Michelle Byrne, Vancouver‑based Manager for Skywords.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15148 In the second row directly behind me is Aubrey Clarke, Director of Business Development at Skywords and former sales manager.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15149 To his right, Todd Bernard, General Manager of Ottawa and Eastern Canada. Todd is also part of the ownership group for this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15150 Beside Todd, Jeff McFayden the General Manager for Western Canada based out of Edmonton, and to the left of Aubrey we have Clay Olsen joining us, Senior Researcher with Sensus Research here in Vancouver. To his left, David Hoerl, Vancouver resident, lead member of blues band The Twisters and the blues is what this application is all about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15151 Our presentation today will illustrate that we've crafted a quality application, that we are experienced broadcasters, that the economic condition of the market is buoyant enough to sustain multiple licensees, that we will increase plurality and provide the only independent news voice on mainstream English language radio in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15152 We've created a solid business plan based on 14 years of selling radio advertising in this market, that we will provide a highly desired and missing radio option to the Vancouver listeners, the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15153 And on that note we've received close to 1,000 individual letters of support for our blues radio station applications, including letters from Tom Lavin of the legendary blues band Powder Blues; Ron Simmons, Vancouver blues promoter; Karen Friend, owner of Just Flooring; John Chan, owner of the Stone Grill Restaurant in Vancouver; David Piggin, member of the Mudcats, an emerging Canadian blues band from Kamloops; and blues artists like Gary Kendall of Downchild; Jack DeKaiser, Jim Burn, Rick Fines and Dan Akroyd, just to name a few.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15154 We've commissioned extensive formal research by independent third party research firms into the viability of our proposed format in eight markets across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15155 To supplement our formal research we created an online survey at bluesincanada.com, a website that we own and has generated over 450 responses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15156 We are fortunate today to have one of Vancouver's great blues musicians on our panel, David Hoerl.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15157 MR. HOERL: Hi. My name is David Hoerl and I'm the singer harmonicist and founding member of the jump swing blues band known as the Twisters. We are based out of Vancouver. We have released four albums, the latest being on the Northern Blues label. Our second CD was nominated for a Juno award in 2003, won the Canadian Independent Music Awards Blues Album of the Year that same year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15158 We have been playing as a band for approximately 12 years and we have received good reviews and accolades from all over the world. We toured Europe last year and are set to go to Scandinavia in March to play a major blues festival among other gigs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15159 I'm an American by birth but have been a permanent resident of Canada since 1986. While in the U.S. I played with some major blues acts, including Sonny Rhodes, Big Momma Thornton, Percy Mayfield, Mike Bloomfield, among many others. So, my blues credibility is pretty good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15160 I hail from San Francisco and I was pretty lucky because I grew up in the days of all ages shows at the Fillmore Auditorium where as a kid I was able to experience the music of all the major blues acts and this was augmented with some great FM radio stations where a large part of the programming was blues music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15161 When I came up to Vancouver to play with an artist who has also won a Juno award, Kenny Blues Boss Wayne, the blues scene here was very vibrant. Powder Blues and the Downchild Blues Band were very popular and they had their songs playing on AM and FM Canadian radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15162 There were a lot of live venues and radio play. There's still many major nightclubs and venues right now, including blues festivals in the lower mainland that support blues music, including Vancouver's Yale Hotel, The Burnaby Blues Festival, Maple Ridge Blues Festival among others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15163 This genre has not been supported with adequate radio representation, however, even though there are plenty fans. The Baby Boomer demographic would definitely listen to and support this music if it were made available, not to mention cross‑generational popularity if it were only made available also.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15164 Just witness the popularity of blues stations in satellite and cable formats. Young people are just not exposed to the genre. There's a real scarcity of blues radio in the Vancouver area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15165 Buddy Guy, a famous blues musician said, "It's almost like an endangered species. If someone don't hear it or play it, it's going to be forgotten."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15166 You need to put the blues where the younger generation can hear it. The great Willie Dixon said, "The blues is the roots and everything else is the fruits."
LISTNUM 1 \l 15167 There are plenty of programs in the U.S. and Canada taking blues music to high schools and grade schools, "Blues in the Schools" they call it. The Twisters had such an experience, my band. We were playing a major festival in Prince George, B.C. During the day the promoter booked us for a show at the local high school in the gym. We played for the entire student body and after the show we held court in the music classroom and answered questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15168 This was phenomenally successful, the kids were enthralled and we knew that we were doing some important education.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15169 One final point is very important to me, local blues artists need exposure. Blues radio would ensure airplay and get our stuff heard which would, of course, help our careers. A local blues station would really help the musicians and the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15170 By the way, I'm very thankful for the CRTC. It is the conscience and watchdog of Canadian radio and I'm glad that there is an entity that recognizes such a thing as Canadian content. It's so important to having a distinct and diverse Canadian identity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15171 MR. TROTTIER: DAWG FM will play 70 per cent Cat 2 songs from the rhythm and blues and blues rock category. The 70 per cent will include some rock songs from blues artists. The blues is the roots of most all modern music genre and, as such, blues listeners expect when they attend a blues concert you are going to hear some rock on our radio station, particularly blues rock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15172 In Cat 2 we'll play rock songs from blues artists like "Flip Flop and Fly" by the Downchild Blues Band or Sue Foley's "New Used Car" or Collin James "Into the Mystic".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15173 We'll play pop rock songs with a bluesy rhythm like, "Ain't No Sunshine", from Bill Wither, "Come Running" from Van Morrison, and "Look at Little Sister" by Stevie Ray Vaughn.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15174 We'll complete the line‑up with popular pop rock songs like "Suzie Q" from CCR, "American Woman" by the Guess Who, or "Fly Like an Eagle" by the Steve Miller Band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15175 DAWG FM will play as condition of licence between 20 and 30 per cent of selection from Category 3 blues music, including classic blues, Delta blues, Chicago blues and contemporary blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15176 Our goal is to play 29 per cent blues music, the maximum that we can. Most of this will come from emerging Canadian artists like J. W. Jones, Amos Garrett and Garrett Mason. 40 per cent of all selection will be Canadian content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15177 I will now ask Clay Olsen from Sensus Research Group to talk about the market research into the viability of our proposed format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15178 MR. OLSEN: Thank you, Yves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15179 Our research into the Vancouver market focused on providing an objective and unbiased assessment of this prospective format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15180 As you can appreciate, our firm's reputation and the life blood of our business is in providing this third party objectivity which means, unfortunately, sometimes giving clients news they don't want to hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15181 However, our research found a number of indicators to suggest that the DAWG format would be warmly received in the metro Vancouver market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15182 First and foremost, while over half of the survey sample was unable to recall any local stations that played a fairly recognizable list of blues artists and, of those that could, the majority could identify just a single one. Yet around half could name more than one station that played top 40, rock or adult contemporary formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15183 Despite the disparity on the airwaves, a large proportion of metro Vancouverites report listening to blues music in other venues, such as at clubs and bars, concerts, personal music collections including digital music, satellite radio, on television and online music sources. In fact, while the means may differ, metro Vancouverites are no more or less likely to hear blues music off air than any of the other mainstream formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15184 This indicates to us that metro Vancouverites are listening to the blues music in greater numbers off air than they are on air, while the reverse is actually the case for most other formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15185 Our research further shows that these people who listen to blues music off air would be nearly twice as likely to listen to DAWG as those who do not listen off air at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15186 Our research also suggests that there is a fair degree of homogeneity in the metro Vancouver market with between one and five and one and four people surveyed strongly agreeing that most stations offer the same programming, there's little on the radio that they like to listen to and that they would listen to the radio more if they could find more programming that they liked.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15187 This does indicate an acute need for something that is new and that is different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15188 Of course the question that is probably on most people's minds is, well, how many people will this station appeal to?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15189 Our survey finds a strong base of potential listeners for this music format. Specifically, 12 per cent of the people surveyed expressed that this would be ‑‑ that they would be very likely to listen to the DAWG format, representing the approximate size of this station's potential core audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15190 A further 36 per cent of the people surveyed answered that they would be somewhat likely. This tells us that the latent demand for a blues format station certainly does exist in the Vancouver market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15191 MR. BERNARD: We have spent considerable time and resources to find a frequency that would maximize the little spectrum that is available in Vancouver. As such, we do not consider our application to be competitive with the other Vancouver applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15192 We've crafted our business plan and models on the smaller coverage that the 89.3 contours will provide. We urge the Commission to consider this important strategic consideration before arriving at a decision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15193 There are a number of compelling reasons to issue as many licences as possible in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15194 First and foremost, 2010. When we host the world for the Winter Olympics in 2010, do we want to be remembered for Céline Dion and Bryan Adams? Yes, of course we do. But we also want to show case the full spectrum of Canadian musical talents, not a radio system that is homogeneous and owned solely by gigantic corporate entities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15195 Secondly, there are no independently owned commercial mainstream radio stations in Vancouver. Vancouver's congested spectrum means less diversity on commercial FM radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15196 In fact, Vancouver has only one originating commercial mainstream English language radio station for every 141,000 residents. By comparison, Halifax has 15 commercial mainstream radio stations to serve its population or, on a per capita basis, Halifax has one station per every 41,000 residents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15197 Vancouver out paces national and provincial averages in terms of population growth, retail sales and radio PBITs. That's a trend that economists expect to continue well past the end of the 2010 games.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15198 MS BYRNE: As the base manager for Skywords in Vancouver, I've witnessed an explosion of traffic congestion in the city first hand. Vancouver has some of the most serious traffic problems in Canada. The city's lack of arterial express routes means that commute times in Vancouver are amongst the highest in the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15199 DAWG FM will employ an integrated multi‑media approach to traffic reports. We'll provide traffic updates from our Cessna 172 based at the Boundary Bay Airport in Delta, B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15200 Our traffic reports provide critical information on area highways to help ease congestion, of course, and to provide a tangible environmental benefit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15201 Our traffic reports will run round‑the‑clock and will include airborne surveillance on weekends to cover the Sea to Sky Highway and, of course, the very busy border crossings. Currently no other radio stations in the market offer weekend airborne surveillance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15202 Our over‑the‑air traffic reports will be supported by our proprietary web‑based realtime traffic maps for instant on‑demand traffic to listeners at DAWG FM's website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15203 Our traffic reports will compete with the U.S.‑based service that currently operates in Vancouver and will provide a Canadian counter point that's currently unavailable in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15204 MS METCALFE: DAWG FM will be young, energetic and bring new ideas to radio. We like to say that "we are the big 'dog' on the block but we have attitude".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15205 Our radio station will have a brand and it will have a feel, the feel is the blues. I'd like to play you a sample of our feel.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 15206 MS METCALFE: I am proud of our commitment to break new blues artists. FACTOR supports 241 blues artists and assists them with recording, marketing and in various other capacities, but without a commercial outle, the creators of these artists hit the glass ceiling, many of them successful and well‑known abroad, selling out venues and a large number of CDs, but at home they are virtually unknown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15207 I am equally proud to highlight the fact that our station will be a good corporate citizen, engaged and connected with our community and environmentally responsible. Yes, the blues are green.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15208 We take pride in proposing that DAWG FM will be the first carbon neutral broadcaster in Canada. We will offset our carbon footprint by using a zero footprint carbon calculator. Further, we will offset the impact of our carbon footprint with real tangible additional benefits to the environment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15209 For example, if we use six tonnes of CO2 per year, we will pay the environment by purchasing carbon credits from environmental organizations that are researching and implementing new strategies and programs to minimize the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15210 We want to ensure that there's a place for our future generations of our 'dogs' to play. We will examine the use of green power over hydro. We will use enviro cars for station vehicles. Through our recycling programs and Green Home Minute feature, we plan to take a leadership role in the promotion of a greener Canada and an eco‑friendly radio industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15211 MR. FRANK TORRES: Skywords began providing traffic reports to the stations in Vancouver in 1994. Success came quickly through crafting of a unique airborne traffic report out source service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15212 Our intimate knowledge of the market comes from having served it for the past 14 years. Our local management and our experience in selling non‑traditional radio advertising make the market a perfect fit with our current operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15213 We've developed a sales strategy that focuses on non‑traditional radio advertisers. In fact, many of our existing radio clients were introduced to radio by Skywords and, in many cases, these advertisers have since incremented their radio budgets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15214 Skywords is a Canadian home‑grown entrepreneurial success story. The next logical extension of our business is into full radio operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15215 As part of our strategic plan, we've submitted a number of applications to the CRTC in 2007 and will submit more in 2008.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15216 With this background in spoken word and 16 years of industry experience, DAWG FM will be live, local and loaded. We will put the people of Vancouver and their stories front and centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15217 MR. McFAYDEN: Our Canadian content development has been carefully crafted in association with the most reputable promoters of Canadian talent and Canadian musicians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15218 FACTOR will receive $42,000 annually that will go to fund blues genre artists. This is a substantial investment in musicians that will promote and help launch careers and the music of emerging Canadian artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15219 Canadian Music Week will receive $21,000 annually to sponsor the Indy Blues Artist or Duo of the Year Award at the Independent Music Awards. Further, they will create three blues series shows at the Canadian Music Week Festival that don't currently exist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15220 DAWG FM will contribute $6,000 annually for the first seven years of its licence to CIRPA, which is the Canadian Independent Record Producers Association. CIRPA will direct the funds to support established and emerging Canadian blues artists from the Greater Vancouver region.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15221 Mark Philbin creates Canadian programming for syndication. DAWG FM will provide $3,000 per year to produce blues shows in partnership with DAWG FM to syndicate these shows in Canada and on a global basis. Additionally, DAWG FM will provide over $26,000 annually to as many as 10 British Columbia blues societies to promote Canadian artists and blues festivals and events, providing a tangible benefit to communities across the province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15222 Now, I will ask Ed to put this puppy to bed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15223 MR. ED TORRES: The approval of this application will accrue substantial benefits to the public and, as such, it's in the best interest of the public.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15224 DAWG FM will provide a format that's not currently available on conventional over‑the‑air radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15225 It will repatriate listeners that tune out‑of‑market radio stations or to satellite or to Internet feeds for their desired programming. It will benefit the Canadian blues industry, artists, promoters and the like. It will add diversity to the ownership of the Canadian broadcast system and encourage the participation of minorities and women.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15226 Approval of this application will maximize use of the FM spectrum without affecting applicants on 104.1 and, as such, should not be considered in competition with those other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15227 In 2010 visitors to the Olympic games will be able to tune rock stations, AC stations and the various machinations of AC that currently exist. They can access four CBC services on numerous frequencies in the lower mainland, talk and news on AM and, if the Commission accepts this application, they'll be able to tune into North America's indigenous art form, the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15228 So, we ask that over the March break when you have time to reflect and possibly when your best furry friend is at the end of your leash enjoying a morning or evening walk, we ask you to think of our application favourably.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15229 We mentioned at the London hearings that you would see us a number of times in the New Year and we are here, continuing our efforts to give the blues in Canada a commercial voice on radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15230 For the benefit of Commissioners Duncan and Williams who were not at the London hearing, we will close then with our tag line, "After all, we're on a mission from DAWG".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15231 We look forward to your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cugini will lead questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15233 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15234 Mr. Torres and Mr. Torres and your panel, good afternoon. You may not want to know I'm a cat fan, but...
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15235 MEMBER CUGINI: I'll just put it out there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15236 As you know or may have guessed by now, I always do like to start with the format, my questions about format because it is where it all starts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15237 And some may say that, yeah, you're calling it the blues, but some of this music, certainly some of the artists that were featured in your video could very well play on a classic rock station that is currently in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15238 So, how do you differentiate yourself from a classic rock, even a classic hits station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15239 MR. ED TORRES: It's quite different and we'll start by saying that we've run an overlap analysis on the two stations, the two rock stations and in terms of tracks, the duplication on CFMI comes out at 11 per cent, on FOX it comes out at 10 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15240 We're talking artists, yes, we're going to play bluesy tracks from artists. We're going to obviously have 30 per cent of Category 3 music which is not getting played anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15241 So, it's going to be quite a different animal, no pun intended, and it's not going to have the same feel. First of all the brand, we're going to brand it as a blues station and maybe Yves can pick up the thread on how we're going to differentiate, you know, because that's certainly the point of our ‑‑ and we're trying to walk a fine line because at the last hearing we were asked, okay, how are you going to make it as a specialty and we said, well, we're not really going to be a specialty format, we're going to be a mainstream format and that's always been our contention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15242 So, Yves, maybe you have some ideas on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15243 MR. TROTTIER: Yeah. The main thing if we choose to have a Cat 3 blues radio station, we're going to have around, I will say, three shares in the market. Like all, I will say, if I have comparison with the jazz radio station in Canada, jazz radio station in Canada, all of them all two or three shares.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15244 So, we want to go more than three shares, so we choose to have a Cat 2 radio station and we're going to have 30 per cent of Cat 3 blues music that you're not listening to everywhere, anywhere and after that we're going to take the rock songs of the blues artists, so that rock songs will qualify for Cat 2 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15245 So, as we have with us in London, Jack DeKaiser, if listening to Jack DeKaiser CDs, there's some is very traditional blues songs, that's Cat 3 songs, and some are blues rock songs which is Cat 2 songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15246 So, at the end going to have on our radio station around 60 per cent songs from blues artists but some are blues rock, some are blues songs, so it's about six, about 10.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15247 So, yes, for some 10 per cent classic rock and rock, it's not more than 10 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15248 MEMBER CUGINI: Yeah. I mean, really my question was ‑‑ trust me, I wasn't trying to, you know, tip you guys over to apply for a specialty format. What my goal was, if I'm tuning, dialling in on the radio, how do I know that I'm listening to DAWG as opposed to listening to the classic rock station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15249 MR. FRANK TORRES: Very good question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15250 MEMBER CUGINI: That's the essence of the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15251 MR. FRANK TORRES: And I think you're never going to get yelled at when you listen to DAWG FM, it's essentially ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15252 MEMBER CUGINI: I might get barked at, though.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15253 MEMBER CUGINI: I couldn't resist, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15254 MR. FRANK TORRES: I think DAWG FM, when Robyn mentioned the feel, is going to feel like you've outgrown that classic rock genre in music, where you could be yelled and screamed at a little bit and maybe we did that in our past, but we're still ready to rock and roll and we still want quality music, but we want a bit of a higher quality music and we want something that maybe won't hurt our eardrums when we listen to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15255 I think you would distinctly hear a difference between a DAWG FM station and a classic rock station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15256 MR. ED TORRES: Yeah. When we ran the duplication and, of course, the tracks come out at you in order, so, when you run a classic rock station the first 20 or 30 tracks that you get are AC/DC and from there you go to Aerosmith and from there you go to Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15257 So, you're not going to hear 20 tracks from those artists, you might hear "Travelling River Blues" by Led Zeppelin. So, you'll hear one Led Zeppelin track.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15258 Also you're going to have a great selection of rhythm and blues, which doesn't fit in the classic rock, so, you don't get Marvin Gaye on Q107 or you don't get Aretha Franklin, you don't get any of the big‑time R&B artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15259 Where we can pull that off, because we've put it all under the blues umbrella and blues artists and blues fans of the music will ‑‑ they'll buy that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15260 MEMBER CUGINI: Thank you. That does make it clearer to me. Thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15261 And on the issue of Category 3, this afternoon in your oral presentation, Mr. Trottier, you said, as a condition of licence between 20 and 30 per cent of selections from Category 3 blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15262 MR. TROTTIER: Yeah, we can accept 20.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15263 MEMBER CUGINI: You will accept 20 per cent as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15264 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15265 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. And your overall Canadian content commitment is 40 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15266 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15267 MEMBER CUGINI: Does that include Category 3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15268 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, we can accept 40 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15269 MEMBER CUGINI: And will you be day parting Category 3 music or will it be blended throughout the broadcast day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15270 MR. TROTTIER: It was throughout the broadcast day, so, going to have blues music in the morning show and the drive show in the daytime, so we're going to have Cat 3 music throughout the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15271 MEMBER CUGINI: So, it will not be relegated to a blues hour ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15272 MR. TROTTIER: No, not the Sunday night at eleven o'clock, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15273 MEMBER CUGINI: ‑‑ twice a week or something? Okay. Just to be clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15274 MR. TROTTIER: Yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15275 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. We'll move on to your spoken word commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15276 I do have the charts that you provided with the application breaking down each element of your spoken word and, if my math is right, it's 12 hours and three minutes total, Monday to Sunday; is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15277 MR. FRANK TORRES: Our math ‑‑ and I will apologize for that chart, we will improve that in further applications, to simplify ‑‑ but our math shows a total spoken word of 14 hours and two minutes and that includes, just to go over the categories just in case one may have been missed, it includes news, weather, traffic, sports, station promotions ‑‑ that might be the one that was missed ‑‑ business, DAWG days, Green Home Minute, community cruiser, entertainment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15278 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay. Could you just repeat the total for me, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15279 MR. FRANK TORRES: Yes, the total is 14 hours and two minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15280 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15281 MR. FRANK TORRES: Monday to Sunday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15282 MEMBER CUGINI: Have you included in the 14 hours and two minutes unstructured spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15283 MR. FRANK TORRES: In the 14 hours and two minutes the only spoken word that is not accounted for is announcer spoken word. So, over and above that, we have programmed 10 hours per week of unstructured spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15284 MEMBER CUGINI: Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15285 Now, what is station promo?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15286 MR. FRANK TORRES: I'm going to defer to Yves for that because he has run several stations and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15287 MR. TROTTIER: Yes, because I've developed two other applications before too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15288 If you're putting a 30‑second spot before your commercial, that 30‑second spot qualify for spoken word. So, that's why we put that in our numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15289 MEMBER CUGINI: Your contention is that it does qualify as spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15290 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15291 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Your contention is that it does qualify as spoken word?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15292 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15293 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I think we beg to differ. Staff may correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that station promos do not qualify as spoken word programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15294 MR. TROTTIER: Well, four years ago I was in front of the CRTC and we said that with another group and they said yes. So yes or no, it's just for an hour per week so I don't think it will make a big, big difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15295 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right. I just wanted to be clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15296 MR. TROTTIER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15297 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So if we were to eliminate that from your spoken word ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15298 MR. TROTTIER: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15299 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ calculation, it's not a big deal to you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15300 MR. TROTTIER: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15301 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15302 All right, since I had my math incorrectly, you tell me, what are the total hours devoted to news only, excluding surveillance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15303 MR. FRANK TORRES: News, excluding surveillance, four hours and 45 minutes Monday to Sunday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15304 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Of that, how much is local news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15305 MR. FRANK TORRES: Our split on local news is 33 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15306 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: 33 per cent local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15307 MR. FRANK TORRES: Correct. 33 per cent local, 33 per cent regional, 33 per cent national is our plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15308 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15309 Now, this is quite a sizable commitment to spoken word programming. Can you give me a breakdown of your staffing, and that is, you know, who will be responsible for the news portion of the spoken word and how will that newsroom be staffed, by how many people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15310 MR. ED TORRES: Robyn and Yves had done some work. I think Robyn has the budget.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15311 MS METCALFE: We are going to have for full‑time news people from Monday to Friday, an a.m. and a p.m. anchor, and also two news reporters that will cross over to do news reporting, gathering stories. We will also have ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15312 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Let's just go through them one by one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15313 MS METCALFE: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15314 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So the two people are dedicated solely to news and two people are news announcers as well as on‑air?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15315 MS METCALFE: No. There are two news anchors ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15316 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15317 MS METCALFE: ‑‑ and then there will be two news reporters that will gather information and put together newscasts for the anchors as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15318 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: The jobs of those four people will be strictly related to news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15319 MS METCALFE: Just news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15320 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: They won't be doing anything else in the station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15321 MS METCALFE: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15322 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15323 Continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15324 MS METCALFE: All right, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15325 Also, we will have a weekend news reporter running from about 7:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., and they will be doing Monday ‑‑ sorry, Saturday and Sunday news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15326 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: As well. Just Saturday and Sunday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15327 MS METCALFE: Just Saturday, Sunday, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15328 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Again, just news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15329 MS METCALFE: Just news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15330 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Any freelancers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15331 MS METCALFE: We will have one swing, but other than that no freelancers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15332 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15333 How many people to do the other spoken word programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15334 MS METCALFE: We have eight on‑air staff, so we will have a morning man, co‑host, mid‑morning, mid‑day, afternoon drive with a co‑host, also evenings and overnights.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15335 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15336 MS METCALFE: No problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15337 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Your CCD commitment, the total commitment is $750,000, correct, over seven years for this application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15338 MR. ED TORRES: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15339 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You have provided us in response to deficiencies the over and above as well as the basic annual CCD contribution and you will commit to that as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15340 MR. ED TORRES: Yes, we will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15341 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I want to talk a little bit about one of the initiatives that you have included in your application, and that is your Mark Philbin's Starboard Communications Radio Talent and Content Creator.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15342 I understand that this initiative will produce syndicated programming that will be used on this station as well as, hopefully, like you said in your oral presentation, to other stations in the country as well as internationally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15343 So can you give me a little bit more information on what this initiative encompasses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15344 MR. ED TORRES: Sure. We are trying to, I guess, bring new ideas to CCD, particularly on the side of talent development, and we syndicate shows, Canadian shows. We try to put them up head‑to‑head with the American shows. American shows are pretty slick, they have a lot of cache, they have some serious production value happening, they are coming out of California and what have you, so really the idea behind that was to promote Canadian talent, to produce Canadian syndicated shows that would take the place or least compete on a more level playing field with those American programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15345 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Are you planning on doing syndicated programming on the station now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15346 MR. ED TORRES: Our plan is to be a local station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15347 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Because you did commit 126 hours, right, of local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15348 MR. ED TORRES: 120 hours local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15349 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: 120 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15350 MR. ED TORRES: But we do mention in our supplementary brief that we want to create ‑‑ again, syndicated blues programming. We would like to think that you are going to license all of the applications that we have applied for, but if that doesn't happen we are committed to promoting the format outside of our own radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15351 So in Fort St. John they may take our blues program, like they take our back to the 80s program, they might take our blues programming in Saskatchewan or North Bay, where have you, so that's really what we are trying to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15352 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: But the question is: Why do you need CCD money to create this syndicated programming? Isn't this just the normal cost of doing business?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15353 MR. ED TORRES: Yes. Again, the business model that we use, these things take a while to ramp up, so what we are trying to do is, we are trying to kickstart it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15354 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Again, because it is debatable as to whether or not this does qualify as a CCD initiative under the 2006 Commercial Radio Policy, in the event that in our deliberations we disqualify it as a CCD initiative, will you reduce your overall CCD by the 21,000 that you have earmarked for this initiative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15355 MR. ED TORRES: No, we would stick with the number and we would distribute those funds to FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15356 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You would just redirect that whole amount to FACTOR?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15357 MR. ED TORRES: If the CRTC was okay with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15358 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15359 I have to say, Mr. Bernard, I thought it quite interesting that you obviously are a former on‑air person by the way you read that you got the frequency paragraph to read in the oral presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15360 But you are right, there is a frequency issue in this whole proceeding and I will read the question that has been provided to us by our engineers just so I make sure I get it correctly.
"You have, in your application, proposed 104.1 as an acceptable alternate frequency, and while we will be discussing your Abbotsford/Chilliwack application later, there are technical issues that will affect your Vancouver application. Considering that your Vancouver application is based on the use of 89.3, which is the alternative frequency proposed for the Abbotsford/Chilliwack station, do you intend to use the alternative frequency of 104.1 MHz for your Vancouver application?" (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15361 MR. ED TORRES: Yes. I think, Frank, do you want to speak to that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15362 MR. FRANK TORRES: Absolutely. We did indicate that that frequency was available as an alternate frequency and, despite the challenges that that frequency has come across in these hearings, it would still be at suitable alternate if not a superior alternate to the frequency that we have applied for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15363 There are also other frequency options and we found that our engineers are quite creative and, as someone mentioned earlier on in the hearings, pulling rabbits out of hats. There are rabbits to be had as far as determining suitable alternate frequencies that will not conflict with other broadcasters and provide the best choice for the scarce spectrum that we have available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15364 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Frequencies other than the ones that have been identified over the last three days during these proceedings?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15365 MR. FRANK TORRES: Frequencies other than the ones that we have identified in our brief and in our response to our deficiencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15366 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15367 Will the coverage differ very much from the proposed, from your 89.3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15368 MR. FRANK TORRES: In all the models that we have done the coverage will be superior even, as mentioned, despite the challenges that have been brought up this week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15369 We intentionally crafted our proposal to use that frequency, knowing that the market was underserved and economically certainly viable enough to sustain a number of new applications, and we intentionally chose not to take the frequency that on the outset seemed to be superior and that everyone leapt to simply because we do believe that the solution to our scarcity of frequency of crisis is that you have to find other ways and you have to find alternate solutions and they are out there and by crafting a business plan that suits that smaller frequency, well, we could take the other alternate frequencies and only do better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15370 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So your business plan was based on the use of 89.3?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15371 MR. FRANK TORRES: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15372 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15373 That brings me to some questions to discuss your business plan and the projections that you have included in your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15374 You are projecting a share I believe of 3, increasing to 4.5 ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15375 MR. ED TORRES: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15376 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ over the course of the seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15377 Do you consider your format to be a niche format, because it seems a bit ‑‑ your share of hours tuned is, some may say, a bit more reflective of a mainstream radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15378 MR. ED TORRES: I think we are going to be a fresh choice, fresh alternative. I think we have crafted a very conservative share projection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15379 Aubrey has done a lot of work on it and I will maybe ask him to comment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15380 With respect to ratings and rankings there was a lot of discussion about the CBC, their blues station ranks a 4 share and if we are led to believe that that is an impaired frequency and it's on AM, you know, those are pretty substantial numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15381 So for us to be on FM with a more mainstream format, we think that 3 is very conservative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15382 MR. FRANK TORRES: Just to clarify that, what Edward was referring to was the CBC's Saturday Night Blues Show as opposed to their blues station. That show draws a 4 share in Vancouver with what we have heard is a horribly impaired signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15383 Aubrey, if you can comment on how we came to that 3 share as well, that would certainly help.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15384 MR. CLARKE: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15385 The blues format may not be the first choice of everyone, but we found that it is the second and third choice of most people. We found, after speaking and surveying the markets extensively, a lot of people didn't realize that they were actually blues lovers, right ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15386 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15387 MR. CLARKE: ‑‑ and we think that is, you know, phenomenal. Even myself, when they say "We are doing a blues format" I said "Yeah, cool. I love the blues". But as we went on they began to explain to me what the blues is, I was like "Wow, this is the no‑brainer", you know. Everybody will of the blues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15388 I would like to pass it along to our researcher, Clay, because he can go it a little more in‑depth into the actual research.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15389 MR. OLSEN: Thanks. Aubrey.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15390 I think what we have found through our primary market research is findings that sort of corroborate what Aubrey and his team have put together in their market share projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15391 For example, when we surveyed 200 Metro Vancouver‑ites on the concept, we listed approximately seven or eight potential artists representing sort of a diverse reflection of what the blues were. If don't know if I can just find that.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 15392 MR. OLSEN: We posed as:
"If a new radio station format was launched in your area that played artists such as Norah Jones, Jeff Healey, Colin James, Van Morrison, Sue Foley, Amy Winehouse, George Thorogood or Stevie Ray Vaughan how likely would you be to listen?" (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 15393 So this covers what I believe ‑‑ and correct me if I'm wrong, Yves ‑‑ a fairly broad spectrum of potential blues artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15394 Our survey found that there was a sizable portion of our survey sample that indicated a particularly strong interest in this format at 12 per cent. So I think a lot of that supports the 3 share that Aubrey is talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15395 Because obviously we understand that there are factors that go into converting that into a market share number, however the 12 per cent is sufficiently large that we feel that his estimate certainly isn't out of line with what we have seen in our primary research.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15396 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I do remember you, Mr. Torres, in London saying that a lot of people don't even realize they like the blues until they see your playlist or listen to your sampler.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15397 MR. ED TORRES: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15398 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: But you are anticipating generating 45 per cent of your revenues, at least in year two, from new Vancouver radio advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15399 Is that both advertisers increasing their spending as well as brand new advertisers to radio, because that is a sizable chunk of your advertising revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15400 MR. ED TORRES: Yes. It's what we do. It's what we have done for the last 16 years, last 14 years in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15401 We can't very well be an affiliate of a radio station and then go in and sell head‑to‑head with one of their advertisers. It doesn't work. We have to do the hard work ‑‑ and some applicants have talked about this, the hard work of finding the new clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15402 Aubrey again can talk to our sales methods and our sales training and procedures and just our corporate culture, which is, you know, there is a lot of market out there. I mean Vancouver is huge. The economic factors are great. They are all pointing in a positive direction. We know that the market is underserved in terms of radio station because we have been here for so long.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15403 Aubrey, I don't know if you want to expand on how we achieve those kind of results?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15404 MR. CLARKE: Right. We also have commitments from a number of our current advertisers that advertise with Skywards(ph) so we would say that is a synergy that we can use as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15405 We have advertisers that are internet‑based companies that currently advertise with us right now who have expressed interest in supporting us in a Vancouver market as well, too, which we know the internet has no borders. So this is what we do for a living.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15406 We are not able to go into the markets and sell directly into the markets because of our affiliate agreements that we honour, right, so we have to come up with creative, innovative ways in order to sell radio. We have been selling stations for 14 years that have very low shares in the marketplace and been able to sustain an office in Vancouver, right, and substantial staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15407 So I believe that it's a no‑brainer that 45 per cent of our revenue can come from new and existing advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15408 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So the bottom line is ‑‑ your bottom‑line position is: Although you may be new as radio operators, you are not new to the radio business in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15409 MR. CLARKE: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15410 MR. ED TORRES: We are not new, but we are offering something that's new. You know, we heard a story about Tommy Lee Music yesterday, you know, I can't think of a better place for Tommy Lee to advertise then a blues radio station, right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15411 The Yale Hotel, they don't do any radio, or at least, you know, when we have talked to them they certainly want to see our format succeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15412 And I think, you know, as you show up when you put your station on the air you will find that the businesses will come to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15413 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: What do you estimate your impact to be on existing radio stations in the market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15414 MR. ED TORRES: Partially for that reason, because we are coming with something that's new, we are coming with something that's different, you know, we don't expect it to be a substantial impact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15415 Aubrey has again done the shares based on, you know, the stations that would be impacted and I think they are minimal numbers, aren't they?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15416 MR. CLARKE: Yes, they are very minimal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15417 We project that may be 1.5 per cent of our share will come from existing stations, but the unique thing about that is that it's going to come from a broad spectrum of stations. Not one individual station will suffer any significant share loss. As you can see in our sub‑brief, we have predicted maybe a .5 from one of the top stations, a .4 from another, and other stations it will equally come down the line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15418 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: .5 being the biggest impact?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15419 MR. CLARKE: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15420 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15421 MR. FRANK TORRES: I think some interesting, again independent corroborating data that we have supplied for that, which I think really tells a story, is in our supplementary brief. We have a copy of the survey from the Burnaby Blues Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15422 Again, that survey had nothing to do with us, it is available online to the general public. That showed that blues listeners and blues fans that attended the festival listen to a wide range of stations in Vancouver and so there wasn't an overwhelmingly high number from any one of the top stations and they are very evenly represented. That is something else that supports our theory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15423 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15424 Mr. Hoerl, is any of your music currently being played on Canadian radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15425 MR. HOERL: Yes, Satellite Radio and Galaxy, the CBC, Holger Petersen has a Saturday Night Blue Show. Thank God for Holger Petersen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15426 In Vancouver, basically there is a Monday Night Blues Show on Co‑Op Radio, they play us regularly. There are a couple of university station programs out of UBC and SFU.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15427 Basically those are the radio stations, and internet radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15428 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So essentially nothing on the commercial FM ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15429 MR. HOERL: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15430 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ stations here in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15431 MR. HOERL: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15432 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Anywhere else across the country, other than the Satellite Radio?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15433 MR. HOERL: And cable. Again, university stations pretty much and internet radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15434 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15435 MR. HOERL: In Toronto there is ‑‑ I forget the call letters, apparently they have a blues ‑‑ a couple of blues ‑‑ Peterborough also has a blues, a little station or something, Alkirk(ph) Kirkadie(ph), I forget, but, you know, little, little spots like that. But no major commercial radio, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15436 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So certainly a radio station like this would ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15437 MR. HOERL: It would be a ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15438 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ make a huge difference to you and artists like you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15439 MR. HOERL: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15440 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: One final question: You are an applicant in Abbotsford/Chilliwack. Are these two applications severable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15441 MR. ED TORRES: Yes, they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15442 We have applied on separate frequencies, although again we have taken a strategic tack to the Abbotsford and Chilliwack market and we will get into that more I guess in the Abbotsford. I don't want to ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15443 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15444 MR. ED TORRES: But again, when the original drawings came from our engineers at 104.1 we challenged them. We said "Find us something else. There hasn't been a call in Vancouver in a long time, everybody is going to come out of the woodwork, everyone is going to apply on 104.1." Boy, did we ever stir up a hornet's nest, but we found a frequency and it's viable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15445 On top of that, we crafted a kind of unique system by which if you are in the Lower Mainland you can get that station with one little turn of the dial from right through the Fraser Valley right to the West Coast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15446 So it is strategic, but it is separable. This business plan is crafted on 89.3, the business plan that we will present for Abbotsford is crafted on 89.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15447 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you all very much for your patience this afternoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15448 Madam Chair...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15450 Commissioner Menzies...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15451 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I will try to make it quick, but just on the frequency, I'm still a little puzzled as to how you dug this one out and there isn't a big line up of people lining up for it. I just need to be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15452 That's my question: Are you guys that much smarter then everybody else or are you that much ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15453 MR. FRANK TORRES: I suspect ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15454 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: ‑‑ more risk tolerant then anybody else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15455 MR. FRANK TORRES: I suspect, Commissioner, my quick comment will be that you will hear more about this frequency before the week is over from other applicants.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 15456 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15457 MR. ED TORRES: Without divulging all the trade secrets, you know we employed different engineers than everyone else here and, again, we have a very close working relationship with them and we have challenged them. We said "This is not good enough; find us something else", right. They found a solution and we thought we can craft a business model on this, on these contours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15458 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Is this frequency fully capable of reaching the central market area the same as 104?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15459 MR. ED TORRES: It is very comparable to 104. It is not as good as 104. It is slightly less favourable than 104.1 is, but we thought if we craft our business plan on that frequency, then when you ask us what happens if you give us ‑‑ will you take another frequency, then we could say yes. It will only have a positive impact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15460 MR. FRANK TORRES: Our "P" Census data showed that the frequency reached 22.5 per cent ‑‑ sorry, lost 22.5 per cent of the Vancouver CMA population and so we took that number and we crafted our entire business plan around that loss and still found that it was more than satisfactory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15461 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15462 Just on your sales plan again, you are going to create most of your revenue or half of your revenue from new contacts, people who aren't radio advertisers right now. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15463 MR. ED TORRES: We are going to leverage some of our existing relationships.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15464 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All right. That's just good. That's just where I wanted to get to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15465 What percentage of your ‑‑ I'm trying to get to what kind of commitment do you think you have, not necessarily in your pocket but in the palm of your hand, anyway, that will get you started?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15466 I don't want to see you drowning in a river of tears, if you know what I mean.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15467 MR. ED TORRES: Our commitment from existing sponsors and ‑‑ it is very hard to sell a promise, you know. But we put together, like we did in Kawartha Lakes, a launch package sponsorship program and we went to our existing clients and we built relationships with these clients for over 14 years, so we are selling ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15468 Again, we are not just selling radio ads, we are selling parties and we are selling logos on station vehicles, we are selling a plaque in the station, so that, you know, you are immortalized every time you walk into the station, and the station will outlive us all when you grant the frequency, and so we are selling a little piece of immortality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15469 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sure. So what, 10 per cent, 20 per cent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15470 MR. ED TORRES: Yes. Right now we have between 10 per cent and 15 per cent ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 15471 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15472 MR. ED TORRES: ‑‑ of year one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15473 Did you have something to add?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15474 MR. FRANK TORRES: Just very quickly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15475 We have had to work very hard at overturning stones and finding advertising dollars where everyone else has chosen to ignore them and that process follows our business acumen all the way. It's the same way that we found the frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15476 MR. CLARKE: As I said, in the Kawartha hearings our whole sales model is built on this very premise, that our sales reps have to be very creative in the way that they sell. We don't sell radio, we sell lifestyle. We sell promotions, we sell programs, we show people how they can use radio to enhance their other marketing. Don't be rid of maybe your newspaper or internet advertising, but take some of that money and bring it to radio and I will show you how it can work better for you. Being creative like that and working to build our clients' businesses, it in return built our business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15477 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15478 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have one question and then I will turn it over to legal and then come back for the pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15479 I have asked everyone: If you were to be licensed, who else do you feel could be licensed along with you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15480 MR. ED TORRES: Without having the benefit of seeing all of the applicants at this hearing we can't really give you guidance as to which one is superior over the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15481 Certainly we think that ‑‑ and we have stated in our presentation that the market is able to hold a substantial number of new licensees, we would even go as high as three. The market is that robust, in our opinion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15482 THE CHAIRPERSON: Without judging the qualities of the applications but just looking at the formats and from what you know, do you find is one sort of more compatible with yours than another?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15483 MR. ED TORRES: You know, I don't really think that even if you licensed some of the applicants that have brought forward small parts of blues programming that it would affect us, simply because we are going for the whole enchilada. We want the whole brand. We want the blues, we don't want 10 per cent or 20 per cent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15484 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15485 Legal has a question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15486 MS PINSKY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15487 I just have a few items to clarify.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15488 First, it did discussions with Commissioner Cugini you, I believe, committed to 40 per cent Canadian content in the Category 3, specifically for Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15489 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15490 MR. ED TORRES: Yes, that is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15491 MS PINSKY: All right. Just when I compare it to your response to a deficiency, the 30 November deficiency, the commitment for 40 per cent was made with respect to Category 2 only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15492 My question part is: Is there somewhere else in the application where you have mentioned 40 per cent for a Category 3 or is this something that has arisen during this conversation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15493 MR. FRANK TORRES: In our supplementary brief we committed to and are prepared to commit to 40 Canadian content in all day parts and all music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15494 MS PINSKY: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15495 With respect to your CCD, in your supplementary you also referred to the $9,000 annual commitment for the DAWG music camp and it's not mentioned in the oral presentation, as far as I understood, and I wanted to just clarify.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15496 Was that just an omission?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15497 MR. ED TORRES: Yes. We just were running a little tight on time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15498 MS PINSKY: Yes. That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15499 MR. ED TORRES: We know everyone wants to go home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15500 MS PINSKY: Finally, I thought it just might be helpful to clarify in terms of the issue of whether station promo would qualify as spoken word or not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15501 Essentially it will depend on whether the promo is characterized as "musical matter". So if it is a musical promotion then it would not qualify in the spoken word, it would be a Category 4, whereas if it were, I guess, just merely spoken word, then it would qualify as spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15502 In your case, can I assume, then, that it was envisioned that the station promo would not involve musical matter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 15503 MR. FRANK TORRES: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15504 MR. TROTTIER: Correct, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15505 MS PINSKY: All right. Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15506 THE CHAIRPERSON: So here is your opportunity to make your last‑minute pitch on why you should be licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15507 MR. ED TORRES: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15508 Well, there are four key points and compelling reasons to license DAWG‑FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15509 First is our format, the blues. It is currently available and thriving on satellite, it is on the internet, it does pretty well in the market as we have talked about CBC's ranking on the Saturday Night Blues program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15510 Our format is going to be mainstream blues artists. 70 per cent of the songs will be recognized commercial Gold songs, "Layla", "Domino", "Voodoo", "Pride and Joy".
LISTNUM 1 \l 15511 The ancillary benefit of playing approximately 25 per cent of Category 3 classic blues and emerging Canadian blues artists also comes along with his application. We are going to play a lot of Amos Garrett.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15512 Canadian blues artists like Jack De Kaiser, Downchild, David Wilcox, Colin James, The Twisters, the Muddcats, Sue Foley, they now have a place where their music will be exposed on high rotation, not just once in a blue moon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15513 Reason number two, we are new player. We add diversity to the Canadian broadcast system and we bring new ideas. At our table we have over 100 years of radio experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15514 We are young, we are enthusiastic, we have an extensive knowledge of the broadcast system. We are committed to this format and we have researched it across the country and we are committed to making it available to Canadians coast‑to‑coast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15515 We increase plurality of news voices ‑‑ although we can't pronounce it. We are a role model for minorities and women. We bring new ideas, like the frequency no one else considered, or a new research group that you have never seen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15516 At the London hearing we were the only applicant that mentioned "The Blues". At this hearing 10 applicants have some form of blues music commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15517 At the London hearings DAWG‑FM was the only applicant to make a commitment to being environmentally sensitive and carbon neutral. At this hearing six of the applicants have mentioned the environment in their briefs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15518 We are happy to lead and, if given the opportunity, we are happy to continue to set the bar ‑‑ not sit at the bar, as someone said yesterday at dinner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15519 Last, and most importantly, 2010. Vancouver is going to be Canada's showcase to the world. Vancouver is clearly underserved with only one commercial mainstream station for every 141,000 residents. It is arguably one of the most underserved areas in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15520 And there is no independent radio owners in the market. As currently constituted, a visitor to the city will only hear homogeneous news and programming, the voice of Canada's wealthiest corporations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15521 We are proud of our Canadian broadcast system and when we showcase it in 2010 we want to help make it best in show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15522 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15523 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Torres, and thank you, panel, for your time and presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15524 MR. ED TORRES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15525 MR. FRANK TORRES: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15526 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn today and start at 8:30 tomorrow morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15527 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1734, to resume
on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 0830 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1734, pour reprendre le jeudi
28 février 2008 à 0830
REPORTERS
____________________ ____________________
Barbara Neuberger Beverley Dillabough
____________________ ____________________
Jean Desaulniers Sue Villeneuve
- Date modified: