ARCHIVED -  Transcript

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.




















                      SUBJECT / SUJET:




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)












HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark                   The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                    1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                       Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 26, 2008                     Le 26 février 2008








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription




Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)






Helen del Val                     Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller







Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secretaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Carolyn Pinsky                    Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique





HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


The Empire Landmark               The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                   Vancouver (C.-B.)



February 26, 2008                 Le 26 février 2008


- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA


PHASE I (Cont.)





Astral Media Radio Inc.                           278 / 1454


6851916 Canada Inc.                               336 / 1763


Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd.                         406 / 2116


In House Communications Inc.                      465 / 2403


Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI)                 506 / 2641


The Coast 104.1 FM Inc.                           588 / 2990











                  Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 26, 2008

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le mardi 26 février

    2008 à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 14511451             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11452             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 6, which is an application by Astral Media Radio for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11453             Please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11454             MR. PARISIEN:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission and Commission staff, my name is Jacques Parisien, President of Astral Media Radio.  Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11455             On the far left first row, your right, is Eric Samuels, Operations Manager, Vancouver, and also Vice‑President Programming CHR and HOT AC, Astral Media Radio GP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11456             To my left is Ross Davies, Vice‑President Programming, Astral Media Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11457             To my right is Claude Laflamme, Vice‑President, Corporate and Regulatory Affairs, Astral Media Radio, and on her right is Brad Phillips, Vice‑President and General Manager, Astral Media Radio, Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11458             Behind him in the second row is Rob Braide, Vice‑President and General Manager, Astral Media Radio, Montreal, and also Canadian Content Development Coordinator for Astral Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11459             Continuing along the row, we have Diane Morris, Director of Finance, British Columbia and Alberta, then Julie Charest, Research Director for Astral Media Radio, and Glenn Chalmers, General Sales Manager, Vancouver, and also Vice‑President Sales, Astral Media Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11460             And at the end of the row is Rhona Raskin, a well‑known Vancouver broadcaster who helped us design the programming of the new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11461             Madam Chair, the Commission recently gave Astral Media Radio the opportunity to become a leader in private radio broadcasting in Canada.  We are proud of this achievement and we are determined to fully assume that leadership role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11462             Our goal is still to make the Canadian radio industry more dynamic and better equipped to face the increasing competition from other media and new platforms, while continuing to be the music industry's ally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11463             Our new roots across all regions of Canada give us strength and a new boost of energy to achieve that goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11464             As you know, Madam Chair, at Astral we are passionate about radio and music.  We are also extremely sensitive to the needs and aspirations of our listeners, and we are convinced that radio is by essence a local medium.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11465             All that strength, all that energy, all that passion, all of these convictions have helped us put together what we strongly believe is the best proposal for a new FM station in the Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11466             Developed around a newly created active AC format, with very rich, relevant and high‑qualify spoken word components, Active EZ Rock will be unique and unlike anything you hear in Vancouver today.  It will fulfil the needs of women with active lifestyles, mostly aged 35‑44, that are now clearly under‑served in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11467             Our strength, our expertise and our passion also helped us to design a very carefully crafted $9 million Canadian content development package, a package that will make a difference for many young artists and students in the Vancouver area and in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11468             Madam Chair, we are here today to convince you, and the other members of the Commission, that our EZ Rock proposal meets all the criteria set out in your call for applications in the most attractive and the most balanced manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11469             With that, we will begin by focusing on the quality and originality of EZ Rock's underlying concept, which I will ask Ross to present.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11470             MR. DAVIES:  Thank you, Jacques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11471             Active EZ Rock Vancouver will be an uplifting niche radio format targeting women with active lifestyles in the 35 to 44 age group.  EZ Rock will feature a unique blend of both music and spoken word elements, making the station unique not only in Vancouver but also in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11472             On the spoken word side, EZ Rock will offer lifestyle‑oriented programming, integrated throughout the broadcast day, designed to enrich the lives of women in the Vancouver area.  Programming will include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11473             Local, national and international news tailored to our target audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11474             An innovative breakfast show, EZ Rock Cafe, broadcast from a special storefront studio with a live audience, the radio equivalent of Canada AM or The Today Show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11475             Regular contributions from a wide array of specialists, including a nutritionist, a chef, a child psychologist, a financial adviser, a beautician, and a life coach to help women deal with their day‑to‑day concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11476             A provocative new program, EZ Love, the Rhona Raskin show, focusing on sensuality and relationships, among other things, hosted by well‑known Vancouver broadcaster, Rhona Raskin, whom we are pleased to have on our panel today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11477             Regular coverage and promotion of local events and causes that are important to the daily lives of Vancouver women, including a strong multicultural emphasis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11478             Our spoken word components will be the radio equivalent of the Oprah Winfrey show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11479             On the music side, EZ Rock will feature an all new active AC format with a blend of easy music designed to stir up emotions and generate a feeling of fun, escape and energy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11480             The music will draw from a wide range of sources, from the 70s to today, connecting with women and fitting their active lifestyles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11481             And, most importantly, the music will be selected based on the feelings that the songs evoke, not simply on their hit status.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11482             Taken together, our music and spoken word components will define a new niche format unlike anything on the air in Vancouver today.  EZ Rock will be innovative, energetic and inspirational.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11483             To give you a feeling of the station, in a concrete way, we invite you to watch and listen to this short video.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 11484             MS RASKIN:  This is the station that I would listen to.  As an experienced broadcaster, a native in Vancouver, and as a woman, I am thrilled to be associated with EZ Rock, and I am sure that Vancouver's active women will be as excited as I am to discover this fresh, new uplifting format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11485             They will not be disappointed and they will stay, because they will have found what they are looking for:  A radio station that has been created with a single purpose:  To connect with the spirit of Vancouver women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11486             This will be accomplished by:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11487             Spoken word components that focus on finding solutions to the challenges every woman wakes up to each morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11488             A great music environment that will bring relaxing and stimulating moments, laughs, tears and all kinds of emotions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11489             And also a lot of great shows, like mine, but also like EZ Rock Cafe and EZ Drive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11490             There is no doubt in my mind that Active EZ Rock will meet the needs and aspirations of an important and under‑served demographic segment in Vancouver, which is women aged 35 to 44.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11491             MR. SAMUELS:  Thank you, Rhona.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11492             Active EZ Rock will distinguish itself from all other radio stations in the market, developing a well‑defined and loyal audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11493             Our market study reveals that Vancouver women between the ages of 35 and 44 spend less time listening to radio than their counterparts in the rest of Canada.  EZ Rock is designed specifically to address this need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11494             As demonstrated by the chart on your right on the easel, EZ Rock will fill a niche that is not being fully served by existing Vancouver radio stations.  It will, thus, complement, rather than compete with, the programming currently available in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11495             EZ Rock will be a distinctly Vancouver radio station, providing local, live and exclusive programming during almost all of the broadcast week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11496             EZ Rock will broadcast 151 minutes of news each week, specifically tailored to meet the needs of women, with a strong emphasis on Lower Mainland local stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11497             We intend to broadcast a wide range of high quality, spoken word features, most of which are unprecedented in Canadian radio.  We will also provide our listeners with free access to all of our many specialists, both through the airwaves and our highly interactive website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11498             EZ Rock will broadcast 40 per cent of Canadian musical selections in category 2.  The station's musical mosaic will provide exposure to a broad variety of established and up and coming local Canadian artists, performers like Michael Behm, Finding Friday and Christine Evans, among many others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11499             In addition, each month, a specific performer will be showcased as the Canadian artist of the month.  This feature will raise the profile and awareness of Canadian music, including emerging, developing, as well as well‑established artists.  Further, our weekly EZ Talk program will feature many Canadian performers in a much more in‑depth format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11500             Another showcase for developing talent is our groundbreaking live morning show:  The EZ Rock Cafe, which Ross alluded to.  This program will be the first of its kind with a live house band featuring local musicians, and regularly scheduled guest performers, including emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11501             Based on these programming features, Active EZ Rock will be a strong and distinct contributor to both local programming and Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11502             MR. PHILLIPS:  As you know, Madam Chair, the Vancouver market is currently served by 19 commercial radio stations, including four multicultural stations, and three CBC/Radio‑Canada stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11503             All of the major national radio broadcasting groups are already represented in the Vancouver market.  CTV and Corus operate the maximum authorized number of four stations each per market.  Rogers operates three stations, while Astral operates two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11504             By granting Astral a new licence, the Commission will ensure a better competitive balance between the four leading national radio groups in an extremely dynamic market that ranks as Canada's third largest urban area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11505             Moreover, it would mark the first time that the Commission granted Astral a licence for a new radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11506             So far, Astral's growth has been exclusively fuelled by the acquisition of existing stations.  This would be our first opportunity to oversee the development of a brand new station, from the concept and design stage to roll out, and we are very eager to take on this challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11507             No doubt, other applicants will point out that the Commission would also be contributing to competitive balance and to ownership diversity by granting a new licence to an independent or to a smaller media group.  We cannot deny that fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11508             But we should emphasize that in a constantly evolving media universe, as well as in a market as ferociously competitive as Vancouver, granting a licence to a less experienced or financially solid stakeholder means risk and uncertainty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11509             All too often in recent years, we have seen less experienced stakeholders brimming with goodwill, who had to ask the Commission to be released from certain obligations and undertakings they made.  Some even requested authorization to sell their station to a larger media group, only a few years after having been granted a licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11510             This brings us to another criterion set out by the Commission in its call for applications:  Whether applicants have the financial resources required to carry out their business plan and comply with their conditions of licence and commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11511             We feel confident in stating that the Commission would have no concerns in this regard as far as Astral is concerned.  But in addition to financial stability, Astral offers relevant knowledge and expertise that will serve as the cornerstones of EZ Rock's success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11512             With the acquisition of Standard Radio, Astral inherited an expert team of broadcasters, including people with in‑depth knowledge of the Vancouver market acquired over the past 20 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11513             Astral has well‑established experience in the development, and the successful operation, of programming concepts that target primarily female audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11514             Astral has an enviable reputation as a media group that exceeds its licensing conditions and commitments.  We have also demonstrated a sincere willingness and ability to work closely with the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11515             Rob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11516             MR. BRAIDE:  Thanks, Brad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11517             We designed our CCD package, Madam Chair, to ensure that our $9 million of funding commitment would be allocated across a diversified and carefully targeted range of initiatives tailored to well‑identified needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11518             The initiatives that we intend to support include:  Promoting and facilitating the professional development of emerging local artists; boosting the regional and national influence of emerging artists who have yet to achieve provision or national recognition; supporting non‑profit radio broadcasting across Canada focusing on children and first nations culture; and providing funding for music and journalism scholarships, a number of which would be reserved for aboriginal students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11519             This package also includes an enhanced contribution to FACTOR, totalling $1.875 million over seven years, based on our financial projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11520             We planned our commitments aimed at emerging artists to facilitate their career development from local, to regional and national artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11521             To this end, the First Time Big Time initiative will discover, encourage and present emerging local songwriters and singers from Vancouver to Vancouver audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11522             Imagine the excitement of an annual event featuring new talents that have not appeared in front of more than 100 people before, who have a chance to perform on one of the most prestigious stages in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11523             For its part, the Emerging Artist B.C. Tour Program will allow emerging local artists from around the province to perform in four B.C. regions:  Okanagan, Vancouver Island, northern B.C. and the Lower Mainland/Fraser valley.  This will introduce new artists to regional audiences while promoting awareness of B.C. music province wide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11524             Going one step further, the B.C. Music Nights initiative will introduce emerging and regionally established B.C. artists to a national audience, with tour dates in five major Canadian cities:  Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11525             Astral will invest more than $5.4 million in these three carefully designed programs over a seven‑year period.  We strongly believe that it will make a difference by providing major career momentum for a large number of B.C. artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11526             Through the Astral Media Radio New Artists Fund, Astral will also provide financial support for 35 concerts in B.C. by new and emerging Canadian jazz artists.  This initiative will enrich the cultural life across B.C., while supporting the development of young Canadian artists working in this specialized music format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11527             Claude.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11528             MS LAFLAMME:  Astral will support two non‑profit organizations that bring diversity to the Canadian radio landscape:  Aboriginal Voices Radio and Radio‑Enfant.  Both of these broadcasters are in clear need of funding.  We hope that the support we are prepared to provide will help them to meet the challenges that lie ahead and to achieve the important public‑policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11529             Astral also proposes to offer six scholarships for $5,000 each per year:  Three for music students and three for journalism students, as part of our CCD package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11530             Astral is aware of the difficulties that Canadian radio broadcasters generally face when recruiting aboriginal talent.  Consequently, we plan to increase the support we already give to the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation by providing five scholarships of $5,000 per year to aboriginal students in the classroom module on radio broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11531             We firmly believe that this Canadian content development package is one of the most compelling proposals, not only because of its broad scope, but also because of its balanced local, regional and national initiatives dedicated to musical and spoken word talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11532             MR. PARISIEN:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, we have identified a clearly under‑served demographic in the Vancouver market:  Women aged between 35 and 44.  We propose an innovative and dynamic active AC format tailored to answer the musical tastes of these women.  We propose ground‑breaking spoken word to answer their needs, including a unique morning show, broadcasting from a storefront studio, with its own local band and a live audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11533             We promise $9 million in Canadian content development, with an emphasis on emerging artists.  We offer financial stability, as well as relevant knowledge and expertise to make EZ Rock a success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11534             Finally, we give the Commission an opportunity to ensure a better competitive balance between the four leading national radio groups in Vancouver by granting Astral a licence for a new radio station for the first time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11535             For all these reasons, we firmly believe that our application best meets the Commission's licensing criteria.  We hope that we have convinced you in this regard.  We would be pleased to address any concerns or questions that you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11536             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Merci, monsieur Parisien.  French (Mark).

LISTNUM 1 \l 11537             MR. PARISIEN:  We are very happy you ask our questions in English because our answers have been prepared in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11538             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will have to do it in English, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11539             Before we start, I am wondering if the hotel can adjust the air conditioning.  It feels like a regular typhoon up here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11540             Going to your presentation first, I will touch on the format and your target demographic first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11541             Why do you feel that your target group of female 35 to 45 is particularly under‑served in Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11542             MR. PARISIEN:  I will let our research expert answer that question in detail, but I will give you a top line answer first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11543             It is a format that we know very well, that we operate in many other Canadian markets with success, and we have established a need in this market for that format through what is conventionally regarded as state‑of‑the‑art research.  I will let Julie Charest take you through the different steps that we proceed with to get there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11544             MS CHAREST:  Good morning.  To establish our target, the first thing we did is we worked with Cara, which is a well‑known marketing research firm.  They have offices in 63 countries and they are really recognized, and their executives are asked to give their opinion when there are marketing issues in the market.  So, we worked with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11545             The first step of this strategic process was to create the mapping that you can see over there, which positioned all the radio stations of the Vancouver markets.  The data used to position those stations is the BBM data.  So, they used BBM data because it is the best survey we can have about radio.  I mean, it is a sample of over 5,000 people in Vancouver.  So, this is a very reliable survey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11546             What they did is they positioned the stations according to the gender and the age.  When we look at the mapping, what we see is that the stations targeting 40 year old people are really male oriented.  We see that with CFMI, which is Rock 101.  We see also CKLG, which is JACK‑FM.  Those are really male oriented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11547             If we look at the female side, what we see is there are younger stations, there are stations like The Beat, CBFT and then CKZZ, which is crave, they are targeting women about 30 years old.  Other stations are targeting older women about 50 years old.  That is the case of QM and that is the case of CKCL.  That is the first thing we saw.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11548             Then we thought that, well, it seems there is a hole for women 35 to 44, because no stations are really aimed at that core target group.  That was the first thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11549             But I would like to add something to that, because we wanted to know more about that data.  So we did the chart that is attached to the oral presentation.  If you want to go there, it is the last page.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11550             What we have on this chart is the time spent listening per capita.  There is the time spent listening for the top five Vancouver, the top five Canadian market, and the average Canadian is there as a reference.  What we see, for instance, is in the 12‑plus demo, like the first column, we see that people in Vancouver listen an average of 16.7 hours of radio, while the Canadian average is 18.3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11551             That means that the Vancouver market index 91 compared to the national average.  Among women 25‑54, there is a quite low index and the worst one is among women 35‑44 with 85.  So, it just confirmed that there was a need for a radio station aimed at that core group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11552             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11553             Yet I believe it is in your brief that you are expecting 90 per cent of your tuning to be coming from the existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11554             I cannot put my hands on them right away.  Perhaps you can point me to the place where it has the breakdown from which stations you are expecting the tuning from, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11555             MS CHAREST:  Yes, sure.  It is page 42 of the Cara study.  So it is table 12.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11556             Are you looking for the chart with the impact on each station or the chart with the 90 per cent ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11557             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Both.  I want to see how you came up with the 90 per cent, where the 90 per cent in aggregate is going to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11558             MS CHAREST:  For the 90 per cent, that will be page 40.  So you mean the general number, not each station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11559             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is right.  Then each station.  So I go to table 12.  I see number 3 there, that is QM‑FM and they are losing .5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11560             MS CHAREST:  Yes, QM is losing .5, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11561             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whereas The Beat is number 4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11562             MS CHAREST:  The way the stations are affected is related to their market share among women 25‑54 group.  So, that is how we project the impact on the existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11563             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am trying to make the correlation between your statement that they are under‑served and, yet, you are actually drawing such a large percentage of audience from audience who are actually listening to these stations already.  So that doesn't really jibe for me right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11564             MS CHAREST:  The assumptions that Cara did is that 90 per cent will come from the existing station.  They also assumed that 5 per cent will come from stations out of the Vancouver market, and 5 per cent is realistic because the tune in factor I mean among the Vancouver market, the listening is 93 per cent for the Vancouver stations.  So it is already very high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11565             That is why they said just 5 per cent for the out‑of‑market stations, and for the new listening, obviously directly in our core target we hope it is going to be more than 5 per cent.  But when you look at the wider demo, then they expect it to be 5 per cent, this is conservative but quite realistic to start by getting audiences that have already radio habits, but if it is more, we will be very happy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11566             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe you can explain to me a bit more about the format.  I am not sure whether you were able to attend yesterday when Harvard was presenting JANE‑FM.  Let's start with that.  What would be the difference between your station and JANE?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11567             MR. SAMUELS:  JANE is being presented as a different format.  Let me just clarify first the distinction between active AC and traditional AC radio, which I think is a good starting point.  There is a comparative here because active AC is an offshoot of AC in much the same that triple A is traditionally an offshoot of the rock music format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11568             Specifically in the case of active AC, it is much more of an interactive and foreground approach to programming AC, whereas traditional AC is much more of a background music format.  Traditional AC would be much more focused on playing established hit songs, whereas we are going to pursue songs in terms of matching the mood and the overall feel of the radio station, not focused on watching the chart specifically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11569             There will be certainly shared artists, particularly the core artists, but the active AC format will play those songs much sooner, not waiting for them to first of all appear on the charts and certainly go deeper than just the hit single by a specific artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11570             One of the great distinctions to the active AC format as compared to the traditional AC format is our spoken word component, which is really the backbone to this radio station.  It provides, for instance, our on‑air staff with the opportunity to provide live compelling introductions to the lesser known songs, whereas a more traditional AC station would have produced station IDs introducing these components.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11571             That is best demonstrated by our morning show, which will be entirely different from what a traditional AC radio station would provide.  In fact, the active AC station will have bookends of very different programming in the morning, with the Active EZ Rock Cafe in the evening, with EZ Love with Rhona Raskin.  Both are very rich in spoken word.  In fact, that is really the main frame of these programs, whereas traditional AC, the main component would be the music, which isn't to say that music is not a key component, but we are providing a much richer spoken word component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11572             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just from JANE's application, I see you are targeting the same demographic group.  Maybe you can describe to me what type of 35 to 44 year old women would tune to JANE rather than to you or would find your station more appealing than, say, JANE?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11573             MR. SAMUELS:  I wouldn't want to be so presumptuous as to identify who their exact audience is.  But I would suggest, based on traditional, the distinction between triple A and what we are proposing is triple A, if you look at how it indexes in terms of things like educational background, it tends to be more post‑secondary education.  We are really targeting a very mainstream appealing radio station, identifying an under served niche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11574             To go back to your earlier question, and you raised an excellent point about 90 per cent of this audience coming from other radio stations, our intention is to build time spent listening, not only to have these listeners listening to our radio station but for a longer period of time, bringing up the total hours tuned in the marketplace with this demographic specifically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11575             To answer that directly, our audience is extremely mainstream across all social and economic levels in the marketplace.  We really want to cater to women in that demographic for whom the station will musically and in terms of the spoken word content appeal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11576             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That answer would apply to the difference between your format and any of the other triple A formats, whether or not those triple A formats are targeted to women or not; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11577             MR. SAMUELS:  Yes, by definition of the two formats, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11578             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What would be the difference between your format and Vista's?  Vista's is the oldies.  In terms of the appeal, in terms of the audience appeal, in your mind, could the two of you co‑exist or are you aiming at the same people?  Would the people who tune to your station likely to be the same people who would tune to the oldies format, the 70s?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11579             MR. SAMUELS:  There would invariably be some shared audience, but our emphasis musically first of all would be more contemporary than their presentation, which is, from my understanding, more of a 70s gold‑based format.  That would be the first point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11580             Secondly, I would reiterate that our spoken word component, which is really the backbone of this radio station, is significantly different from any other proposal, in fact any other radio station that exists in Canada.  Our view there is with the competition we are facing, not just from radio, from out‑of‑market tuning, but all the many other media that are entering into the mix and the options for people, we need to provide local content that is compelling and that is different.  That is why we built this radio station with that perspective in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11581             MR. DAVIES:  Madam Chair, one clear point of distinction is that the format you are just referring to is really a music driven hit format.  Oldies makes its living on playing familiar songs and hits.  We have an oldies station here on our AM station, and we know how that operates.  You have to play hit music to make it work with the audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             Our emphasis is not so much on the hit music as much as it is on music that fits the mood of that woman in the age group of 35 to 44, coupled with blended carefully the spoken word elements, and I can't emphasize that enough as Eric said.  That is a really integral part of this unique format that we have created, which will clearly set us apart from those music intensive radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             MR. CHALMERS:  Madam Chair, one further point of differentiation between our format and the one proposed by Vista.  Yesterday there was a concern by members of the panel about the long‑term viability of the health of that group of listeners.  They are considerably older.  We expect our audience to live this decade.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is reassuring to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             MR. CHALMERS:  From a sales perspective it is reassuring to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I looked at your playlist actually last night when I tuned to some of the stations I had in mind.  103.5, and I am looking at QM‑FM and I am looking at your playlist, will the sound be the same?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             MR. SAMUELS:  As I said earlier, there will certainly be shared artists.  There are really two important distinctions that will distinguish us from any existing AC station in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             The first is that at least 25 per cent of the music we play will be entirely different, and that is to say developing artists, artists who are not receiving airplay in this marketplace, Canadian artists like Matt Dusk, Kathleen Edwards.  There are internationals like Brandy Carlyle and Damien Rice.  There are many opportunities to introduce the market to new artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             The second and I think important distinction is that because we will not be watching the charts constantly, a lot of this music, by its nature, as Ross pointed out, will be considered for playlist long before a station such as QM would consider playing it, which is to say before it reaches the chart.  So, there could be a difference of six, nine months in when these songs are playlisted on Active EZ Rock as opposed to a traditional radio station.  That, in itself, will present a significant difference in terms of the sound of the radio stations musically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             MR. DAVIES:  Madam Chair, you being from Vancouver, and I actually started my career here in Vancouver, I am quite familiar with that particular radio station because I worked for CHUM for 23 years and had an active role in CHQM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             It is a really well‑programmed, broadbased AC radio station and they have done very well at that.  There has really been no direct competition to them, and you could argue that maybe Clear came in and tried to do that.  But unless you offer a distinct difference in your formatic approach, the listener is going to say, well, why am I going to go over there?  They tried that with maybe Fred and Kathy and they had some marginal success with Fred and Kathy, but unless you point a clear difference in your programming, you are not going to be QM‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             So, it doesn't make sense for us to come and propose a format that is going to be duplicating CHQM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             This is why we have carved out a very narrow focused audience, which is clearly under‑served here in the market.  We have seen that.  We knew that we had to create a radio station that would be seen as distinctly different from a station like CHQM.  That is why we blended the spoken word elements into the programming.  We have the Rhona Raskin show and our breakfast show, which will be quite unique.  So, those are the things that we realized we had to make a point of difference, and it is very important that we make that clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             MR. PHILLIPS:  At the risk of piling on to this answer, I think another key thing is that the QM‑FM brand has been around for decades and is well established in the market, and they can, for lack of a better way of saying it, get away with being a wall‑to‑wall music machine.  That is what people expect, and that is what people will come to them for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             When you are launching a new service in 2008, you have to offer more because people can get wall‑to‑wall music from their iPods and from all kinds of different sources where they don't need radio stations.  We have crafted this radio station so that it makes a difference and is a solution and is relevant to the challenges facing the industry right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Davies, you are very accurate in naming those three stations:  103.5, 104.9 and then JACK‑FM.  If you are looking at demographics when I am in the car alone, that is usually what I would listen to, and then when the kids are in the car and they see me tune to 103.5 or 104.9, they always say, oh, mom is stressed out.  Those are the stress out stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             I think what difficulty I have right now is that I still can't hear the difference between what you are proposing for your format.  I know it is coming out more and more.  You say the spoken word, but if you were to name five elements of what is different about your station and the existing ones that are operated, what would they be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             MR. DAVIES:  First of all, the spoken word, which you have heard me mention already, the CHQM morning show with Terry and Tara, and I remember when we worked on that format because at that time we were up again Fred and Kathy on KISS‑FM here, and we couldn't beat those guys because Fred at that time was in his prime, and we realized that the thing we have to do there with QM is to make it the more music morning show.  They have done very well at doing that.  They play a lot of music with very little personality or spoken word elements built into it.  It is a music intensive morning show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             Ours will not.  It will be the exact opposite.  We think music plays a secondary role on our morning show.  You have heard us talk about the Oprah Winfrey show or Canada AM or the Today Show.  That morning show, from a storefront studio, will be utterly unique here in Vancouver, where we expect to have numerous guests and personalities coming in and talking about issues to women in that age group.  There will be some music, but the proportion of talk to music will be radically different from what you would hear on, say, QM and Clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             So, that is one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             We have programs like the Rhona Raskin evening show.  Rhona has had some success in these type of shows previously, but this one, when we met up with Rhona, we developed this exclusively for our radio station which will be unlike anything else that has ever been done before.  It will be a combination of provocative talk with the right appropriate music put in there, which might be a little bit perhaps sensitive to some ears, but it will be very customized to that woman 35 to 44.  That in itself will be unique, never been done before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             I am going to ask Eric to help out here a little bit more, but those two are kind of like cornerstones of the things that we have got going for the show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             We have also built in Canadian interview shows that it will be long format in its structure on weekends to provide awareness in depth to these Canadian artists that will be unique.  In other words, we are not just rolling the music.  We are going to sit down and talk to these people.  You don't hear that on traditional AC radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             We have the Easy Lounge show that is going to be running on Sunday evenings, which will be introducing category 3 music jazz and blues, again just trying to give our audience something different from the same old, same old.  QM and Clear make a great business.  It is just playing those carefully researched 400 songs over and over and over again.  That is fine.  We have done that in our other markets.  We know that that works.  We know that that won't work here.  We have to be different, and these are some of the features that we are building into the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             Last I will add, just before I give it to Eric, is our news will be customized particularly to that audience.  It is not necessarily news in the traditional sense, although obviously we will cover things like the budget today, but we will take the budget and we will apply it to these women and how it will directly affect their lives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             So, those are some of the things that will point us in a different direction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before you turn over the mike, I know I will forget if ‑‑ I might already have.  The playlist, you were saying they play about 400 songs and, in your opinion, there will be a greater repeat factor.  What do you anticipate would be your playlist and what would be the repeat factor?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             MR. DAVIES:  Madam Chair, I will let my colleague, Eric, answer that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             MR. SAMUELS:  Our playlist will start at at least 800 titles and will grow from there as music is added to the playlist.  You asked for five points.  I believe Ross gave four.  My fifth dovetails nicely with your question, and that is to no repeat work day, which is a key component of our broadcast day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             I think that emphasizes one of the important distinctions, and something I think you have heard from several other applicants are the negative feedback from Vancouver listeners, there is too much repetition on the radio.  That is hard wired into our programming.  It provides us with the opportunity to have more depth in terms of the music we play.  It also avoids one of the pitfalls of radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             It is essential for us to build a loyal audience.  We said off the top that this will be not only loyal, but we don't expect this to be as wide appeal in mainstream as QM‑FM, and partly that is because this is a frequency that is somewhat technically limited.  So, we recognize that we need to build a loyal relationship with our audience, beginning with our performers, our performers, our spoken word component and the music will match up with that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             MR. DAVIES:  Madam Chair, one of my colleagues just reminded me that I forgot one of the more key components.  I can go into six and seven and eight now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             We are going to have a nutritionist.  We are going to have a life coach.  On Fridays we are going to have a chef in our morning show, getting people set up for the weekend and what to make for that weekend for relaxing time.  So, we are going to have a lot of these different kind of experts, and you just don't hear that on music‑based AC radio stations today.  So, I think we are up to about seven or eight now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             Ms. Raskin, I don't know whether you had a chance yesterday, when Harvard was presenting the JANE‑FM, and their description of what their talk would be, how there would be more emphasis on lifestyle and respect.  I am just interested in hearing your comment on their spoken word programming, and also, if you can, draw the distinction between their spoken word programming and yours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             MS RASKIN:  Thank you, Madam Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             I can't say I am an insider to all of their thinking in terms of their programming for their talk, but my understanding from listening to their presentation would be that much of what they propose is in short segments as opposed to an evening.  I think of EZ Rock, EZ Love as kind of a clubhouse where every night you can come and hang out with me and my friends and participate and do those sorts of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             I think what I heard from their proposal was that they would have shorter kinds of segments.  I am not really sure if they would be regular kinds of people.  With respect, I think their difference is that we believe that women have many voices as opposed to one point of view.  Mine, of course, being very important, but other people, we will let them have their say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             Women do have many voices and many points of view and we have to accommodate that.  Maybe some of it you wouldn't want to, on my show, have your child sitting on your knee while we discuss some adult issues.  I think that would be somewhat of a difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             In terms of style, because I can speak for myself, I think that we learn things and we need to learn things.  Women have a lot of things in common and we have a lot of things that are not in common.  We come from different places, and we can learn from each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             So, the lecture style doesn't really work, not for me anyways.  If I want to learn something, I want to use something that is lighthearted, that has humour in it, that is open‑ended, and again not just my opinion, but other people's as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             So, I see what we offer at night is a clubhouse, an airwave neighbourhood, if you like, where you can drop in with your jammies and perhaps with your child on your knee or perhaps not, depending on the content, to look at problems that we share or we have friends who share that isn't about whining and criticism but is solution oriented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             So, you tell me there is a spider on the floor and you don't know how to get rid of it.  I have a solution for that, which by the way is the long hand of the vacuum cleaner.  It puts four feet between you and it.  It makes for a nice evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             One of the things that women do differently is that we like to talk.  We like to talk about our lives.  We like to share experiences, and we will do this in line ups at the grocery store with perfect strangers.  This is an opportunity to do that in an anonymous but personal kind of format to basically deal with life 101.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             I hope that answers your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That does.  That is very helpful.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             I guess we can go on to the more boring stuff, just my housekeeping things.  But we are on spoken word, so I need to clarify and understand better your spoken word commitment.  I understand from your submissions that it is 19 hours and eight minutes per week; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             MR. DAVIES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that the total spoken word, including structured and non‑structured?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             MR. DAVIES:  Yes.  In the application you have that includes the total commitment.  However, I would like to add that as this process evolved over the last four or five months, from the time that we submitted the original application and the follow ups, one of the elements of the station that has kind of changed significantly is the spoken word levels.  So that amount of 19 hours will be the bare minimum.  In fact, at that time we didn't have the details of the Rhona show worked out.  So, as we worked with Rhona over the last couple of months, we quickly came to realize that the spoken word elements are going to increase significantly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             So, we actually see that level right now going forward more realistically in the 30 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, your spoken word commitment has now gone to, can I say that it is a commitment of 30 hours per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             MR. DAVIES:  I am sorry, what was that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your spoken word commitment, can we now adjust it to 30 hours per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             MR. DAVIES:  Yes, that is where it is right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then of that, how much is the pure news, the sub‑category 11, spoken word, just news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             MR. DAVIES:  The news is 151 minutes, pure news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then the remainder would be the sub‑category 12, which is other?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             MR. DAVIES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your local programming commitment, from what I see, is only 42 hours, which is the minimum; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             MR. DAVIES:  Yes, again at the filing we put the minimum in.  I believe we even stated that at that time we are putting in the minimum because that is what is required, but we anticipated that to increase as the process evolved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             So, it is in fact right now in the neighbourhood of about 90 per cent; we anticipate local programming to be in the neighbourhood of 90 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be important to clarify because at 42 it is the lowest.  It is lower by a mile than the next, so maybe you can give us some better numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             MR. DAVIES:  In fact, it is probably roughly in the neighbourhood of 112 hours over the course of a week.  This is now, Madam Chair, taking into considerations things like Rhona's show, that EZ Rock Cafe morning show and how we place all these components throughout the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             When we filed the original application, we wanted to put in the minimum, but as we stated at that time, we anticipated increasing them, and I am here to tell you now, as I say it is 90 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As your local programming grows, what is the source of the other portion of the programming which is not local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             MR. DAVIES:  We had this discussion the other day.  I actually think it is probably closer to 100, but we want to have some leeway in there.  On weekends, for example, if there is a show that we want to purchase that is a syndicated show, for example, that might be something ‑‑ I don't think it will be, but we wanted to have some room in there just in case something came alone and we said, well, this may be a pretty good show that we should incorporate because it might involve stories of Canadian women all across the country, and this may be some relevance here to our station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             It is really kind of like a buffer, but for the most part, as I say, it will be 90, closer to 100 per cent local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you don't have any syndicated programming identified at this point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             MR. DAVIES:  That is right.  Again, this is just that buffer area.  So, we don't anticipate it, but I want to hedge my bet a little bit and say just in case on weekends if something does come along, we wouldn't want to preclude that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On your CCD, and I know you have addressed it in your deficiency letter and in your supplementary brief, I believe the total CCD is $9 million over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             Could you provide a breakdown of what portion of that is over and above?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes, we will provide.  We heard the question yesterday as well to the others.  So, we will provide to the Commission this chart by the end of the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is the end of the week early enough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             MS PINSKY:  Could you provide it by the end of tomorrow?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             MR. LAFLAMME:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you provide the breakdown of the over and above, can I still assume that it is 20 per cent to FACTOR or Music Action.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes, it was definitely like this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On pages 16 to 23 of your supplementary brief, you had given different allocations to the different initiatives, and I suspect that when you redo your over and above allocation and your basic CCD, those allocations may have to be refined.  If there are any changes resulting from your identification of the portion to be allocated to over and above, could you identify them on the same ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             MR. LAFLAMME:  Sure, we will give you complete information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             You have also identified a number of educational institutions whose students could be potential recipients of scholarships.  I know that you have a letter from BCIT.  But aside from BCIT, do you have any other institutions who are committed now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             MR. LAFLAMME:  We have identified some others as beneficiaries in the supplementary brief.  We don't have letters from them yet, but it will come if we ever have the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  And you will file those letters from them confirming that they will disperse the funds in accordance with the CCD policy as in the commercial radio policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will also be able to confirm that the schools and institutions to receive the funding will all be accredited provincial authorities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that they will use the money to specifically benefit students of music or journalism?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By way of scholarships or purchase of musical instruments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             MR. LAFLAMME:  Yes, according to the policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your initiative that is earmarked for AVR, you said that you propose to contribute $100,000 annually to AVR and that this funding could be used by AVR to introduce local programming.  When you direct the funds to AVR, how will you do that?  Will you actually ask them to use that money only for developing local programming for Vancouver, or how do you plan to achieve that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             MR. LAFLAMME:  I would like to ask Bob to address that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             MR. BRAIDE:  AVR is an operation which, Madam Chair, Astral has supported actively over the years.  In CRTC 2006‑158 at paragraph 129, which is cultural diversity, the Commission states how important it is for broadcasters to increase the representation of aboriginals in the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             Our presentations to the Commission over the past while have been full of those kinds of initiatives.  We see AVR as being a valid recipient.  We feel that by giving this money, we contribute to their national infrastructure.  Clearly we would love to see dollars earmarked for this marketplace pumped into the local stations, but I think it is terribly important that this organization have a strong war chest to allocate the way they see fit, again according to the policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just to clarify, do you work with them in developing this local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             MR. BRAIDE:  No, we do not.  Again, we trust their judgment as we trust the recipients of our other benefits to handle those themselves and to spend the money the way they best see fit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may have answered this already, but when you give them the funds, do you actually tell them that these funds must be used to produce local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             MR. BRAIDE:  No, we do not.  It would be in each individual market, but, again, we don't attach requirements to the recipients as specific as that.  When we are dealing with the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation, for which we have created a large in‑class module where a movie is played to aboriginal students in schools across the country, obviously we work closely with NAAF on that one.  As one of our initiatives in this application, we are doing an add on, which would give scholarships to aboriginal students who have seen that module, who have decided to become involved in broadcasting, and it is likely that those dollars would be spent towards putting aboriginals from this area into job situations in this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Going back to just the 90 per cent of the tuning will be from existing stations and also I believe your submission is that 80 per cent of your year 2 revenues will also be from the existing stations who you identify as CTV and Rogers and you believe will be able to sustain the impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             If that 90 per cent tuning and your audience share and your revenue projection turns out to be overly optimistic, what would you do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             MR. PARISIEN:  If it were overly optimistic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             MR. PARISIEN:  We would hang in there and we would continue working to make it work, definitely, and continue investing to make it work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I believe that Commissioner Menzies has questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just a couple of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             I would like to hear your perceptions on how this market gap or market opportunity for the female 35 to 44 demographic has evolved in this market.  I find it surprising considering how attractive that demographic is to advertisers that in a market with 19 stations it, of all demographics, would be under‑served.  I would just like to get your perceptions on how that came about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             MR. DAVIES:  Commissioner Menzies, I too found that interesting.  I was quite surprised when we saw that chart up there, which is a BBM chart, that shows in that particular demographic the market under indexing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             So, why is that?  I can only think that, again, going back to the big horse in town, being in that format CHQM, being such a broad based AC and doing very, very well at it, they have a wide spread.  So it is difficult to be all things to all people in some cases, and I think that might identify that there is a certain segment of that audience that they are not really super serving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             So, when we saw that, that is when we decided there is an opportunity for us to go and be very laser like in programming because you can't be all things to all people like that without affecting some parts of that wide demo.  I think that is part of the situation that exists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             So, more competition in the market will start satisfying those individual pockets, in this case the 35 to 44.  That is just one big huge music machine over there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             My other question is in other applications that we have heard, we heard a lot of talk about the nature of Vancouver's cultural and ethnic diversity and that sort of stuff.  I am curious to know your perception, and I didn't hear as much of that in your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             My only question is from a commercial point of view, in terms of attracting a female audience, is cultural and ethnic diversity overstated, do you think, in some of the other applications?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             MR. PHILLIPS:  I don't think it is overstated.  I think that it is a big part of our business plan.  Perhaps we haven't articulated it at the same level as the others have so far in our presentation, but the multicultural changes that this market has gone through and will go through over the coming years are significant.  We plan to actively pursue English‑speaking ethnic audience, both in how we research the station and how we tailor the playlist.  We plan to really factor that into virtually everything that we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             Of course we plan to factor it into the hiring that we plan to do as far as our staff is concerned.  We have an employment equity plan in place already corporately that we will continue to follow, and we will continue to staff accordingly.  We think it is just good business to make sure that this station is completely representative of the changing multicultural face of Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I didn't mean to present it as something that I thought was a shortfalling or anything.  I was just kind of curious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             Just to follow up on that, Rhona said something about there is no single voice for women and many voices and that sort of stuff.  I am interested in your take on how you see that programming happening within the conversation we just had in terms of ethnic and cultural diversity?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             MR. DAVIES:  Commissioner Menzies, if I may, as you may have seen in that short video, we mentioned this issue a number of times in that video, so we are extremely aware of that reality here in Vancouver.  The spoken word elements that we have incorporated into the radio station will clearly reflect on some of those particular aspects that are unique to Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             The one I was thinking of is the cooking show.  I think we have even said somewhere in our brief that we will have cooking shows that are designated for particular ethnic communities that represent the make up of this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             So, the spoken word elements will really drive that a lot.  I think maybe we just thought that was implied in our spoken word elements.  We are acutely aware of the make up of this city.  Brad, who has been here for about 19 years and the same with Glenn, they know this Vancouver community inside out because they have worked in radio for that period of time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             MR. SAMUELS:  If I may, perhaps an assumption on our part, that our responsibility role is to reflect to community in which we broadcast, and our existing operation in Vancouver in terms of staffing is quite culturally diverse and that is reflected in terms of the point of view that is shared with audiences over the airwaves.  We expect that to very much be hard wired into Active EZ Rock as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I didn't doubt that you were good operators in this market and that you would be well aware of the market in terms of that, so I will just leave you with that.  I was just curious about a couple of items.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             MR. DAVIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Duncan has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Just two quick questions.  You mentioned that you operate this format in many other markets.  It is not so easy to find a comparable size unless it is Montreal, but can you give me some type of idea of the audience share that you capture in those markets and which markets they would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             MR. PARISIEN:  As a matter of fact there is that format in Montreal and it is called Rock Détente in French.  It is a very important station.  It is the third biggest in the market and it has a market share of over 15 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             MR. DAVIES:  I can add that in some of our English markets, and don't quote me on those numbers, but EZ Rock in Toronto is in the top 12 plus radio stations in that market.  In Hamilton our station is number 1 in the market.  It is called KLITE, and it is a similar type of format.  It is not the same as Active EZ Rock, but it is that kind of AC format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Focused on women, you mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             MR. DAVIES:  Yes.  These are all focused on women.  Same thing in London and in Edmonton.  So we have a lot of expertise in this format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             But I want it to be clear that those stations would be more perhaps comparable to CHQM.  But this station that we are talking about is not that.  It is a unique customized format to meet the market needs here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             MR. SAMUELS:  In fact, each of our EZ Rock stations across the country is quite distinct in order to fit its own market.  They are all programmed autonomously within the market to fit the needs of that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Is there format similar to yours in that there is a great deal of emphasis on spoken word as well?  Is that a consistent thread through them all?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             MR. SAMUELS:  The Active EZ Rock model has been developed strictly for Vancouver and this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I see then you also operate a HOT AC here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             MR. SAMUELS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is an FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             MR. SAMUELS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So those comments that you made earlier about the QM‑FM might play to that station as well, would it, the type of music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             MR. SAMUELS:  CKZZ has a target of 30 year old; Active EZ Rock will have a target of a 40 year old.  So there is a significant difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  The other thing I am interested to know about, you mentioned 800 titles to start and no repeats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             MR. SAMUELS:  During the work day, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Sometimes I think that people like to hear a song that is popular in the day more than once a day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             MR. SAMUELS:  It doesn't mean you won't here, for instance ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  The next day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             MR. SAMUELS:  No question.  In fact, it is a bit of a misnomer the no repeat work day.  It means we will be playing the popular selections but you won't hear them three hours later.  So, you may hear it during the week day and you might hear it again in the early evening or in the morning.  But during the work day when people are at their desk, for instance, we find it to be an irritative hearing the same songs repeated every few hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So, no repeat is not exactly ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             MR. SAMUELS:  You caught us there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  With respect to the 800 titles, I guess I would just like to be sort of educated a bit.  What would be on HOT AC, for example, your HOT AC station, what would be the number of titles you would have there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11730             MR. SAMUELS:  It would be less than that.  It would be closer to 500 or 600 with feature programming, different titles though, entirely.  There may be some shared artists, but they would really be in the minimum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11731             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I was just actually more interested in the quantities.  I was just trying to understand that.  That is fine.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11732             MR. SAMUELS:  You're welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11733             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You had estimated that you would reach 8.4 of the total Vancouver population in year 1.  I am thinking of the questions on your contour and the frequency and what you will cover.  So, the total population, you are thinking about the 2.2 million population in year 1?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11734             MS CHAREST:  May I answer that question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11736             MS CHAREST:  To do a reach projection, Cara used a coverage factor to adjust to that reality.  They took the interference free zone and the population of this interference free zone is 1.366 million, and out of the total population of the CMA, then they come out with a coverage factor of 65 per cent and they adjust to reach according to this factor.  So, it is taken into account in the reach projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11738             How many do you think we should licence in Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11739             MR. PARISIEN:  We trust the Commission's judgment on this more than ours, but our view is that if you allow Pattison to flip, you should create a level playing field for the major players, and we would be at a disadvantage if we were not licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11740             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think there should be a total of two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11741             MR. PARISIEN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11742             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you were one of the licensees, any comments on who would be compatible, who would not be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11743             MR. PARISIEN:  No, we don't.  My only comment was on the Pattison file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11744             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This is the opportunity for your two‑minute pitch then and why you think you are the best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11745             MR. PARISIEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11746             In my view, there are two fundamental reasons why you should give a licence to Active EZ Rock.  First, the quality and the relevance of the application itself.  Second, the strength and the expertise of the applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11747             During the last 90 minutes or so, we did our pitch about our ground‑breaking spoken word features, as well as our vibrant active AC format.  We explained why they offer the perfect mix to answer the unfulfilled needs of Vancouver women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11748             But as convincing and compelling as a programming concept could be, it is still just words on paper.  The true challenge is to bring that concept to life, to sustain its growth and keep it active and alive as long as possible and as long as necessary to achieve maturity and success.  It is not an easy task in the highly competitive universe of today's radio.  So, the broadcaster entities behind the concept is also very important, and we think we are the best company to effectively deliver that concept in the Vancouver market for many reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11749             First, we have a proven programming expertise acquired through the operation of numerous broadcasting services targeting female audiences such as we just discussed, the EZ Rock and the Rock Détente radio stations we have across the country.  Recognizing this one is specific to this market, it is still our expertise to manage radio stations that are targeting women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11750             We clearly know what we are doing with Active EZ Rock and how we are doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11751             Secondly, we are a very decentralized company.  We are convinced that the best way to succeed in any given market is to concentrate most of the decision powers in the hands of the local team.  We have general managers, musical directors, sales managers and news directors in every market.  They are the ones who know the market best and take the decisions for the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11752             Third, we have a well‑established Vancouver infrastructure and a very experienced team in this market who has developed long‑standing relationships with listeners and community organizations, as well as local advertisers.  We are more locally grounded than most of the other applicants.  We know perfectly well the rules, the players and the challenges that lie ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11753             I personally will also volunteer to move to Vancouver if we get this licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11754             Finally, as a national leader, we have an industry‑wide vision and the financial strength to support our local stations in providing them with both the tools for stand‑alone that cannot generally afford.  Those tools include long‑term investment in the streaming of all of our stations located in large‑ and medium‑sized markets, the resources of our national sales agency, and the expertise of our research services, a unique internet service that allows our 125 journalists across Canada to access all news bulletin interviews and background research that have been produced by their colleagues in any of our local stations, and many other services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11755             Madam Chair, Active EZ Rock is the right project for the Vancouver market and Astral Media Radio is the best to deliver it.  In addition, our $9 million CCD package is not only impressive by its size, but also by the carefully designed strategy behind it.  It will make a difference and strongly support Canadian emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11756             For all those reasons, I hope the Commission will say yes to Astral for the first time in the context of an application for a new station.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11757             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I too would love to see all the broadcasters move to Vancouver, and hopefully the CRTC headquarters will also be here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11758             Thank you very much for your time and thank you for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11759             We will take a ten‑minute break and be back at 10:00, please.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0948 / Suspension à 0948

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1000 / Reprise à 1000

LISTNUM 1 \l 11760             THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11761             We will now deal with item 7, which is an application by 6851916 Canada Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11762             Please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11763             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you.  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11764             My name is Roy Hennessy.  I am the President, General Manager and a shareholder of SHORE 104 FM.  I have had over 30 years broadcast management experience at several of Canada's leading and legendary radio stations from Toronto to Vancouver.  I am also the past President of FACTOR, a former member of the BBM Radio executive committee, and I founded the Amber Alert Program in Ontario on behalf of the Ontario Association of Broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11765             Our Director of Sales is Sherri Pierce.  Sherri has 17 years of Vancouver radio sales experience, and most recently was the Director of Sales for the Corus Radio Group of stations in Vancouver.  Prior to her radio career, she was the National Media Director for a major Vancouver advertising agency, and she is the past Vice‑President of the Vancouver Media Directors Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11766             Jennifer Ouano is the Director of New Media.  Jennifer is a recognized leader in the Canadian new media industry and she is the co‑creator and producer of Z on CBC‑TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11767             Erin Garrity is our Canadian Content Development Coordinator.  She has more than a decade of broadcast experience.  She was producer of a national televised arts program showcasing emerging western Canadian artists of all disciplines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11768             Cheryl Araki, CGA, is the Director of Finance and Administration.  We have imported her from Hope, B.C. where she grew up.  She is the former manager of finance for PI Financial and Haywood Securities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11769             Our shareholders.  Mr. Sam Feldman.  Sam is recognized as one of the top music impresarios in the world and a seminal figure in the establishment and dramatic international growth of the Canadian music industry.  Sam guides the careers of such revered artists as Joni Mitchell, Diana Krall, Norah Jones, The Chieftains, Elvis Costello, Ry Cooder and a long, long list.  His experience and knowledge of the entertainment industry provided a pivotal voice in the design of SHORE FM and the initiatives that we are proposing to you today to assist in the development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11770             Over the years Sam has contributed his time and fundraising abilities to a wide variety of local, national and international charitable causes and campaigns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11771             Next we have Sean Morrison, C.A.  Sean Morrison is a partner at Capital West Partners, a mid‑market investment banking firm located in Vancouver.  Mr. Morrison has advised companies across Canada with capital raising for a senior debt, subordinated debt, private equity, IPOs, debt restructurings, asset sales, acquisitions, valuations and fairness opinions.  In 2005 Mr. Morrison managed the recapitalization of Lululemon Athletica and Aritzia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11772             Next we have David Aisenstat.  David is the Chairman, President and CEO of The Keg, a company which operates nearly 100 restaurants and employees close to 8,000 Keggers.  Mr. Aisenstat is also very active in community affairs.  He is a trustee of the Vancouver Art Gallery.  He is also a member of the Ottawa based Canadian Council of Chief Executives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11773             Bob Mackowycz, Maco, as we call him, has an outstanding career programming some of Canada's leading radio stations in various formats.  For over 35 years, Bob has been the visionary of such legendary stations as Q107‑FM classic rock in Toronto, the Fan 590 FM all sports radio, CFRB‑AM news talk radio and many others.  Bob was the point person and the driving force behind designing the programming you will hear about today on SHORE FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11774             And we have Bob Mackowycz, Jr., a former independent musician who knows a great deal about emerging artists.  Bob was the head writer and the producer of the CBC TV program called The Hour.  He is currently the co‑host of a nationally syndicated radio program which focuses on new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11775             Michael Landsberg, the sports host with TSN, is unable to join us today due to a family emergency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11776             Our advisers, we have David Bray for Research and Marketing.  David is one of the country's leading radio analysts.  His articles have and do appear in most of the major media publications in Canada.  He served as Chair and Vice Chair on a number of BBM committees and was instrumental in the development of some of the audience research being used in Canada today.  In addition, he is a musician who has produced written and recorded, with a variety of artists, including Colin Linden, Daniel Lanois, Jeff Healey, and Michael Burgess, and he will not let me sing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11777             And Kerry Pelser is with us from the technical side.  He is with D.E.M. Allen & Associates in Winnipeg, our consulting engineer, who was the point person for the presentation of the technical aspects of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11778             Finally, Mark Lewis, legal counsel.  Mark Lewis is a senior partner at Lewis Birnberg Hanet, LLP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11779             To begin our presentation, I would like to tell you what a personal honour this is.  I grew up in Vancouver, I interned in radio with the legendary Red Robinson in CFUN; I hosted the morning show on CKLG for a number of years and eventually created the Vancouver radio station CFOX.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11780             In the radio business, it is very rare to come out of the announcing ranks and to find yourself here today to become an owner.  Being a shareholder of SHORE 104 and making this presentation is a career pinnacle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11781             SHORE 104 strongly believes that we have the winning application, and we believe we have it for three reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11782             Number one is the format.  SHORE 104's triple A format will bring listeners who have turned to the internet and other markets back to Vancouver radio by playing music that is currently unavailable in the market.  Our research indicates that our format will generate a strong interest and will support a financially viable station without negatively impacting existing licence holders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11783             Number two is diversity.  SHORE 104 will fill a local gap and a large gap in the local airplay.  Established and emerging Canadian triple A artists who don't currently have access to Vancouver radio will find a home with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11784             To this end, as a condition of licence, we will dedicate 15 per cent of our playlist to our entire broadcast week to emerging artists.  Moreover, we commit as a COL 15 per cent emerging artists from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday to Friday.  This will ensure they are front and centre, and not ghettoized in non‑peak hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11785             SHORE 104 will also invest $7 million in Canadian content development, the CCD plan.  The CCD plan is designed to create content for broadcast, and over $1 million will be used to support spoken word artists in the Vancouver area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11786             Number three is balance.  SHORE 104 offers a unique combination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11787             We have experience in station building, operations, programming, and in artist development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11788             Independence.  Our team represents a new voice, with new ideas in an overly consolidated marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11789             Local focus.  The station will be built on radio's fundamental pillars:  Live and local broadcasting.  We believe cultivating hyperlocalism is radio's greatest strength.  Furthermore, the majority of the station is owned by prominent Vancouver business people with a track record of success and community building.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11790             In summary, we believe we have selected a format which is being demanded by listeners and Canadian triple A artists and we have assembled a team with the radio and business acumen and the financial resources to make SHORE 104 a success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11791             To discuss how SHORE 104 will have a powerful impact on Vancouver's artistic community and radio listeners is Sam Feldman.  Sam's close relationship with Canadian artists for over 36 years and his deep understanding of the radio industry in the Vancouver market are the foundation of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11792             Sam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11793             MR. FELDMAN:  Thanks, Roy.  There is a world of great triple A talent across Canada, and especially in Vancouver.  Right now almost none of it is available on Vancouver commercial radio.  These artists need access to our local airwaves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11794             A long time ago when I was a very young man, one of the first things I did in this business was to promote a concert.  That was back in 1970.  There was a local band called Seeds of Time that had a song on the radio.  It was a very big deal.  The concert sold out and I thought I had found the secret to success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11795             I tried it again a couple of months later with some great bands that didn't have their music on the radio.  I learned an obvious lesson very quickly.  I delivered a lot of pizzas paying for that lesson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11796             Radio is the foundation to an artist's career.  It was true then and it is true today.  The triple A talent is out there.  Singer/songwriter Norah Jones' latest CD was the number one album on the billboard charts and the number one downloaded album only iTunes in Canadian history.  Yet, when we wrote the application, the first single on this new CD had never been played on Vancouver radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11797             There are culturally relevant and developing local artists that deserve to have their music heard.  The New Pornographers, who are often described in the American press as a Vancouver supergroup, only received one spin of their first single in Vancouver.  This single charted on triple A stations right across America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11798             It is the same story for such local acts as Jeremy Fisher, Tegan and Sara, and many others.  Through my work in the U.S. I see the impact that triple A stations has had on this segment of Vancouver artists.  The fact is they get more radio support in America and abroad than at home.  It is an unfortunate situation.  It drives artists to leave, the very scenario Cancon was created to prevent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11799             This lack of exposure is shockingly true of our heritage artists as well.  In my own experience, Order of Canada, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee, and B.C. resident Joni Mitchell, recently won a Grammy for her new album and it never received a single spin on Vancouver radio.  The truth be told, Joni is one of the greatest artists this country ever produced, and you almost never hear any of her music on the radio.  The same is true for Leonard Cohen, Daniel Langlois and the list goes on and on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11800             It is interesting, I was at a meeting for the Olympics recently.  I serve on the opening/closing ceremonies board.  A woman, a well‑known book publisher, came up to me and said, you know, you represent Joni.  I have to tell you, her music saved my life ‑‑ and I am being mellow dramatic ‑‑ when I was in college, and I don't think that we are hearing any singer/songwriters on the radio today that are saving any lives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11801             The solution is to have a triple A radio station in Vancouver to solve this exposure disparity.  It is a proven format in many of America's biggest cities, and Vancouver and its artists and audience are deserving of the same cultural experience.  The talent is here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11802             And so is the audience.  We found this in our research and I see it in my business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11803             In my opinion, there is a perfect storm here.  There is a huge market demand for a format that will give much needed exposure to Canada's burgeoning triple A music community, including our own local emerging artists.  It will also help to bring listeners back to local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11804             I believe strongly that SHORE 104 is a new kind of commercial radio for Canada, and Vancouver is the perfect market to introduce it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11805             Leonard Cohen once described his songs as letters, that he hopes some people are hearing.  It is kind of time to reopen the post office.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11806             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11807             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you, Sam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11808             To discuss our programming, here is Bob Mackowycz Senior.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11809             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  And how do I follow that?  Thanks, Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11810             SHORE's programming is built on diversity and balance.  We believe we can super‑serve a disenfranchised community of Vancouver listeners with a playlist that is progressive, commercially viable and currently unavailable in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11811             Our programming highlights include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11812             Forty per cent Canadian content that balances emerging artists, more established current artists and music legends in our format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11813             Fifty per cent new music, that is, music released within the last 24 months.  The goal here to create format hits that may even cross over into even more mainstream formats.  In this way, we will be the market leader for the most compelling new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11814             Diversity.  Seventy‑five per cent of the people we surveyed said they wanted "more than just the hits."  As such, our music that is older than 24 months will come from the non‑hit deeper album tracks of our format's icons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11815             Format depth.  By playing 50 per cent older music, we can draw upon the rich tradition of triple A performers.  We also offer older music by artists who are just now becoming successful.  Let me give you an example here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11816             Multiple Grammy nominee Feist, Leslie Feist from Calgary, is the fastest rising star in North America.  But her 2004 single Mushaboom has played only 17 times in Vancouver.  It is worth noting that this particular song, which helped establish her career everywhere else, played over 2,000 times across Canada and almost 9,000 times to date on triple A stations in America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11817             We will play more songs.  Each week we will play nearly 700 distinct songs.  This exposes listeners to a wide variety of music in peak listening hours.  We also offer a low repeat factor.  A current hit song on Vancouver radio receives about 30 to 40 spins a week, sometimes even more.  Heavy rotation on SHORE FM is closer to 18 spins a week.  This allows us to put more different songs into rotation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11818             SHORE FM balances category 2 music with under represented category 3 genres such as folk, world, blues and aboriginal.  Approximately 20 per cent of the music we play will be from category 3.  This will be featured in a number of specialty shows, but more importantly, even, we will play cat 3 music in peak hours when the most listeners can actually hear it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11819             Emerging artists are an integral part of SHORE'S programming.  In fact, SHORE has committed as a condition of licence, as you heard, 15 per cent of our broadcast week will be dedicated to emerging artists.  We also commit to playing 15 per cent emerging artists in the 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday peak listening period.  This means that a new Canadian folk artist can be heard on the morning show, and an unsigned Canadian roots artist can be heard in the afternoon drive home.  We agree with CIRPA and CIRAA, who have stated that effective exposure means emerging artists have to be front and centre and not buried in non‑peak listening hours.  To that end, we are the only Vancouver applicant to make such a specific emerging artist COL commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11820             MR. HENNESSY:  Thanks, Bob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11821             Support for local artists is what drives our Canadian content development plan.  Our $7 million CCD commitment will support our industry's value funding institutions, as well as other causes that are sometimes overlooked.  Here is Erin Garrity to outline some of these other initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11822             Erin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11823             MR. GARRITY:  Thanks, Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11824             Our approach to Canadian content development takes the content aspect very literally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11825             For example, we are creating and sponsoring a new all‑Canadian day at the Burnaby Blues and Roots Festival.  It will produce hours of broadcast content each year.  This includes our all‑day live broadcast of the event and recorded individual performances in regular rotation and specialty programs.  Artists will receive recorded copies of these performances for their own commercial and career use.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11826             Another content‑focused CCD recipient is VAMS, the Vancouver Adapted Music Society.  VAMS is dedicated to developing Vancouver's physically challenged musicians.  Rather than simply making a donation, we will provide VAMS artists with a regularly scheduled appearance on B.C. Barometer in peak hours as a showcase for their content.  This will be VAMS first commercial local radio exposure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11827             SHORE 104 is also creating an annual talent contest that will be the first of its kind in Vancouver for our emerging triple A artists.  The contest will produce a compilation CD that will be featured prominently on our station.  We support grassroots artists with more than airplay.  For example, SHORE is working with Vancouver's Rogue Folk Club to create a series of concerts for triple A artists.  We are dedicating $500,000 over seven years to promote, stage and record these shows.  Local artists have told us that the live music scene in Vancouver is shrinking each year.  This money addresses that problem.  Playing in your home town builds an artist's initial fan base and we will be there to support this crucial first step.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11828             SHORE 104 is giving Vancouver spoken word artists also special CCD consideration.  We are recording local poets and spoken word artists for broadcast.  The Canadian League of Poets is supporting our initiative, adding that Vancouver's local scene is especially vibrant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11829             We are also recording and broadcasting material for Vancouver's comedy community.  This material will be prominently featured on our specialty comedy show and in daily peak hours as short form segments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11830             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you, Erin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11831             One of SHORE 104's distinguishing characteristics is our commitment to spoken word and spoken word content.  At a time when stations advertise less talk, we would like to push in the other direction and strive for better talk.  SHORE 104 listeners want to be engaged, whether it is discussing B.C. politics or the latest release from Blackie and the Rodeo Kings.  It is also an audience that values an independent Vancouver news voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11832             We have 14 and a half hours of weekly spoken word and news content.  Our daily newscasts will put a priority on local news, covered by local journalists.  Our commitment to intelligent coverage and discussion of local current events will be a hallmark of this station.  We have been supported by some of Vancouver's leading print and broadcast journalists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11833             To outline why spoken word content is so important to SHORE 104 here is Jennifer Ouano.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11834             MS OUANO:  Thanks, Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11835             SHORE 104 believes radio is more than just music.  People tune in to hear their favourite music.  But radio is the soundtrack to a community, and spoken word consent is a vital part of that soundtrack.  Without locally rooted conversation, a station could be broadcast from anywhere.  This turns a radio station into a jukebox, and that is not radio's greatest strength.  If people want to hear a hit song, they can get it on the internet, without having to wait for it.  What radio does best is to build a world of context around people's favourite music, and the key here is quality spoken word content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11836             For example, B.C. Barometer is our daily hour‑long flagship magazine program about Vancouver's public affairs and cultural life.  A sample show might combine music with a long‑form artist interview, discussion of current civic topics, a movie or theatre review and an open line dialogue with the audience.  This kind of programming was once common on music stations before the era of hit‑driven playlists reduced spoken word content to the bare minimum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11837             We will also have a twice daily editorial feature in morning and afternoon drive time, spotlighting opinions on local matters by Vancouver journalists, writers, academics and other civic and community figures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11838             Our strategy is to complement this kind of programming with a strong internet presence.  Our website will act as a digital town square, where listeners can participate directly in the current on‑air dialogue by sharing their comments and thoughts.  If they want to respond to an editorial, we can upload their comments, and in some cases air the response.  SHORE 104's website will be a way to engage the audience, both locally and beyond through interactivity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11839             To take this idea of community further, we are building an online social networking platform that unites local musicians, poets and other artists, with an eye to developing new connections and collaborations that might otherwise never happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11840             This is only the beginning.  The internet is here and if radio continues to treat it as a problem, instead of a medium with a common strength, it will continue to lose listeners to what the net offers.  But I personally believe that the net can actually help build a station's audience, and it begins by offering thoughtful spoken word content and diverse voices that encourage dialogue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11841             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you, Jennifer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11842             Now let's go where the rubber hits the road, Sherri Pierce, our Sales Manager to outline our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11843             MS PIERCE:  Thanks, Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11844             SHORE 104's programming will appeal to adults aged 25 to 54 with a slight female skew and particular emphasis on the 35 to 44 year old segment.  Our format offers music currently unavailable in the market.  We are confident that we can win back listeners who are currently disenchanted with the existing music mix in Vancouver.  As such, the station will increase overall radio tuning levels and will repatriate some out‑of‑market and internet listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11845             We project that by the end of the first year of operations SHORE 104 will secure a 4 per cent share of hours tuned for all people 12 plus, a 4.4 share for females 25 to 54 and a 4 per cent share for males 25 to 54.  It is important to note, thought, the share impact on any one station will be negligible as we will draw moderate audiences from a variety of sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11846             SHORE 104 will blend into the Vancouver radio spectrum and work to become the first choice of our target group.  Given that it plays far more album cuts, the format is not reliant on hits.  The music will constantly be rejuvenated and will not experience the same degree of listener burnout.  From a sales perfective, a lower audience turnover is an attractive environment for advertisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11847             As you know, an adult 12‑plus share point currently delivers an average of $1.2 million in Vancouver.  Of course, this index is somewhat higher for stations delivering the most sought after demos.  Given that SHORE 104 will be the new presence in the market, it will encounter the normal challenges as it works to fully establish its awareness with advertisers.  As such, we conservatively project that we will deliver 65 per cent of the average share point value in year 1,  resulting in revenues of $3.1 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11848             In the second year of operation we project a revenue increase as our marketing presence is established.  Instead of delivering 65 per cent of the average return of a share point, we anticipate achieving an 80 per cent average return.  In subsequent years we will capitalize on the fact that the 25 to 54 demographic with a female skew is a highly sought after buying demographic in the market.  Given our projected costs for infrastructure and marketing, we anticipate being cash flow positive in the fourth year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11849             Our business plan is based on pragmatic realism.  There are approximately 75,000 to 80,000 businesses in Vancouver.  With the current list of commercial stations, only 10 per cent of all the businesses advertise on radio.  We are confident that we will be able to attract new advertisers to our station.  Much like listeners seeking the music within a triple A format, we will also find a variety of advertisers in search of this unique environment for their message.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11850             Without adversely affecting the market incumbents, we are certain that our business plan is realistic and SHORE 104 is a viable format in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11851             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you, Sherri.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11852             In conclusion, we appreciate that the Commission has a very difficult decision.  However, we strongly believe that SHORE 104 is the best option for a number of reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11853             It is a winning format.  It satisfies consumer demand and fills a gap in local airplay.  It will repatriate listeners from other markets and other media, like the internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11854             Diversity.  It satisfies the Broadcasting Act's call for diversity through our music, news, spoken word and our staffing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11855             The unprecedented 15 per cent condition of licence commitment to supporting Canadian emerging talent during the entire broadcasting week and during the prime 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday.  This music will not be ghettoized.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11856             Our CCD contributions of $7 million will make a meaningful impact on the city and generate broadcast content for our station and local artists, with a special focus on spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11857             And balance.  It is a unique combination when you get the experience of station building, operations programming and artist development, combine that with independence, a new voice with new ideas and local focus, live and local broadcasting that is locally owned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11858             In summary, we believe we have selected a format which is being demanded by the listeners and the Canadian triple A artists and we have assembled a team with the radio and business acumen and financial resources to make SHORE 104 a success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11859             For those reasons, we have submitted an application to be licensed as SHORE 104.1‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11860             Thank you.  We would appreciate your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11861             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hennessy and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11862             Commissioner Cugini will lead the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11863             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you and good morning to all of you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11864             Just for the record, you have added some charts to your oral presentation.  Is this new information that you are submitting to us today?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11865             MR. HENNESSY:  No, it is not.  It is contained in the application.  We decided to attach this because yesterday in the discussions, it is easy for numbers to become confused when we are talking about condition of licence.  So, by assembling it into a simple chart it is easy for us to refer to it and we don't embarrass ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11866             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.  I like things that we can refer to easily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11867             You may be happy to know that you have answered a number of my questions in my oral presentation, and just by glancing through these charts some of the questions have been answered in these charts as well.  So, this may be quick.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11868             MR. HENNESSY:  Would you like to come to the opening of the station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11869             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Don't get ahead of yourself, Mr. Hennessy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11870             What a good way to start.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11871             We have heard much discussion over the last day and a bit about the triple A format.  So my first question to you is going to be based on what we have heard so far.  What are the differences and/or similarities between this proposal and the others in the triple A format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11872             MR. HENNESSY:  The differences between our interpretation of triple A and the others?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11873             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11874             MR. HENNESSY:  Our programming guru will guide you through it.  Bob.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11875             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  And you don't have to chant "ohm."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11876             Last night at 4:00 a.m. in the morning it kind of occurred to me that we might in fact be the only true textbook triple A being proposed to you.  I am not going to be cynical and suggest that the others have come kind of in the guise of triple A, but there is a certain degree that they are a fragmentation of the triple A format which is yet to be introduced to Canada.  Let me explain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11877             The Planet, they are 40 per cent category 3 music.  We are 20 per cent category 3 music and that is a big difference, especially when you are talking about commercial viability.  In their triple A format you may have noticed there is a real emphasis on world beat music.  I would say the emphasis at SHORE FM is on the singer/songwriter.  We believe that is more commercially viable.  It doesn't mean that world beat isn't a part of our blend.  You have heard today we have a specialty show, and indeed we are supported by the Vancouver World Music Collective, and they have already agreed to work with us on the show.  So, we are plugged into that because it is part of the eclectic blend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11878             We also strongly believe, and David Bray on the research side can speak to this more clearly than I can, but ask him how unrealistic an A chair is in this format, and you hear him chuckling in the background.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11879             I would say in terms of The Planet, that is the difference there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11880             In terms of The Peak, they are an acoustic based triple As but they kind of skew more towards a soft rock vibe or feel.  Forgive me, I am in Vancouver, I have to use phrases like that.  It is the soft rock vibe.  In a way, they almost reflect a fragmentation of the triple A format towards adult contemporary.  As well, they only have a 10 per cent emerging artist quotient and it is not a condition of licence, so you kind of get the feeling that emerging artists aren't as fundamental to their core and to their essence as a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11881             In terms of both scenarios being proposed by the Pattison organization, much lower staffing.  I believe one of them has as few as eight new positions being created, and the other one is 18.  We are full pledged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11882             We are local.  We are talking probably three dozen jobs.  That is a major difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11883             As well, they have 25 hours of spoken word programming; we have 14.5 hours.  With all due respect, I believe ours is much more realistic as a goal.  You heard about how we intend to blend it in and quality talk, intelligent audience, all that.  Everybody has told you the same thing, and it is true.  It is a core value of the station, but it is not a talk format.  Twenty‑five hours is a tremendous amount of talk for a music‑oriented station to bear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11884             In terms of JANE‑FM, they don't have a slight skew towards the female, it is female dedicated.  Our balance is 52/48, and when you look at the marketplace itself, that is a true reflection of the marketplace itself.  Our slight skew is because that is the way the music kind of tilts a little bit, not entirely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11885             Despite what our colleagues at JANE‑FM said yesterday, SHORE actually plays more new music than they do.  They actually misstated the situation, saying that they played more.  We play 50 per cent new music.  I believe they said they play 40 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11886             Once again, I am going to invoke David Bray and you really should speak to him about this.  The 9.2 share is just stratospheric.  It is just an unrealistic figure.  In terms of Port Moody, the signal doesn't reach Vancouver so it is not really an issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11887             I think that kind of summarizes the differences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11888             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Before we move on to the share point and into the dangerous field of perhaps intervention, let's just stick to the format for a second, because you did bring up a number of issues that I would like to delve further into.  One of them is the emerging artists component of your proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11889             You do in various places throughout your application refer to emerging artists both in terms of how you will dedicate time to the airplay of emerging artists, as well as through your CCD contributions, how you will contribute to the area of emerging artists, but you don't provide us with your definition of what is an emerging artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11890             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  We would follow the CAB.  It is a very complex term.  The terrain and the dialogue is very robust.  Every organization is advocating their own definition.  We think being at the heart of emerging music and the format perhaps most suited for that ongoing dialogue, we would like to be involved in that dialogue.  That would of course assume we would be licensed.  But for the purposes of our structuring and our working through, we use the CAB definition, which is ‑‑ would you like me to repeat it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11891             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  No, we have it on the record.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11892             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  So that is the working model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11893             MR. HENNESSY:  As we indicated in the application, should you come out with a formal definition that varies from the CAB, we would adopt that when it came into effect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11894             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You have said it repeatedly in your application if we chose to impose the condition of licence that you have proposed in your application, you would accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11895             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11896             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  For the airplay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11897             On to the area of category 3 music.  In your application you stated that this would constitute 15 per cent of your playlist.  Today in your oral presentation you said approximately 20 per cent.  Is it somewhere in between?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11898             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  You know what, it is a flexible number.  We live quite naturally with category 3 music.  At the risk of sounding like Emeril Lagasse, you are talking a bit of a gumbo here and you are talking about a bit of a blend.  It is a vital important part of the mix.  It lives comfortably.  I don't know that I would nail it down to a specific number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11899             When we were programming the station and made up our music list ‑‑ and when you go through the music list, you will see that we are pretty careful and at the core of what we are doing is blending that music in an environment of more familiar mainstream artists and that is the best showcase for this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11900             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Madam Commissioner, may I add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11901             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Please do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11902             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  We found as we were building the playlist as well that we tried to be very careful to be respectful to what category 3 music actually is.  Because it is a singer/songwriter‑based format and there is an awful lot of acoustic music, it is very easy to pass music off as category 3 and then, therefore, fill up your quotas with stuff that really isn't getting to the heart of what a category 3 definition music should be.  So, we tried to go very, very vigilant to sticking to what we believe is a true definition of a category 3, for example like the bands, Acadian Driftwood which ends with a nice mandolin solo as opposed to a singer/songwriter who just happens to be using an acoustic guitar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11903             As we scheduled it, we found that this fits very comfortably within the 15 to 20 per cent range that we were projecting.  But to go much higher than that, I think now you are talking about diminishing the actual definition of category 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11904             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What are the implications if we were to impose a level of category 3 music as a condition of licence?  For your benefit, let's use 15 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11905             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  We would embrace it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11906             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You would embrace it.  You would accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11907             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11908             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11909             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I just glassed at your charts.  The issue of Canadian content, in your application you are committing to 40 per cent Cancon overall?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11910             MR. HENNESSY:  Forty per cent, balanced presentation, no ghettoizing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11911             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If we were to impose 15 per cent category 3, would 40 per cent Cancon apply to that as well, even though the regulatory requirement for category 3 is 10 per cent, because I see that in your chart right here that you submitted today, 40 per cent category 3 music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11912             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Are you asking whether 40 per cent ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11913             MR. HENNESSY:  Forty per cent of emerging?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11914             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  No, Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11915             MR. HENNESSY:  Forty per cent of Canadian content would be emerging?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11916             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  No, category 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11917             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  No, category 3.  We would like to get back to you on that.  We will have a discussion about that, but off the top of my head I don't think that would be necessary.  We will get back to you.  You are asking us whether we will accept ‑‑ if you could just restate that so I can be clear about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11918             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Radio licensees who are proposing category 3, the regulatory requirement for Canadian content is 10 per cent of category 3 must be Canadian.  You are committing to 40 per cent Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11919             The question, therefore, is if we are to impose a 15 per cent of your schedule to be category 3 music, will you accept a condition of licence that, is it 40 per cent of category 3 or will you comply with the regulatory requirement of only 10 per cent of category 3 only?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11920             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  And we can get back to you on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11921             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Bearing in mind that your chart says 40 per cent Canadian content of category 3 music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11922             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Right.  We just had a programming department meeting and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11923             MR. HENNESSY:  The consensus is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11924             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  We had a quorum and, yes, that would be acceptable as a condition of licence, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11925             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Forty per cent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11926             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11927             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, terrific.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11928             MR. HENNESSY:  You are a good negotiator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11929             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And this level will be applied weekly and between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11930             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  I hope you got the impression that that is what we are all about, peak hour exposure because it really does not make sense.  You have to stand up for the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11931             This music for it to cut through, again, it is all about balance and it is about the proper context.  It is the framing of this music.  It means, as well, whether it is emerging or category 3 you will see an element like Remember This Name is a feature that we have, and it is to introduce the emerging artist.  There is a bit of an art to breaking new music.  You just can't throw it willy‑nilly into the mix and expect listeners to absorb it, and especially when the format hasn't existed in the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11932             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I believe it was the Harvard application that provided the Wikipedia definition of triple A.  One of the things that was included was it is artistcentric and that it tends to play the deeper cuts of tracks from albums.  Is that your experience?  Is that your interpretation of this definition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11933             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Exactly.  The audience here, even if you look at our rotation figures, and they are about 50 per cent of what is the norm, and even though you might want some flexibility, if there is like KT Tunstall is a very interesting Scottish singer/songwriter who had a massive top 5 hit with Hold On.  By the way, it received no spins in the Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11934             But an artist like that deserves that airplay, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11935             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Madam Commissioner, may I add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11936             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11937             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Just in terms of adding to the depth of artists and the airplay gap that I believe you are referring to, if you take a quintessential Canadian singer/songwriter who is triple A through and through like Sarah Harmer, who has had a substantial amount of Canadian success and is at the forefront of this movement of new Canadian triple A content, some of her songs get played and some of them don't, and that is at the heart of really how you create balance in this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11938             If there are two or three songs by an artist that tend to be focused on and yet they have an entire back catalogue of dozens and dozens of songs, this artist tends to be defined by those two or three songs, which isn't really a fair representation and it is not really career building.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11939             For example, her song Don't Get Your Back Up, which was released in the mid‑nineties, was spun in Canadian almost 29,000 times, but in Vancouver since its release in the mid‑nineties only 95 times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11940             In this regard, you can provide a great deal of flexibility and airplay gap by supporting artists and the stuff that isn't being played from their back catalogue, and these are great songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11941             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How do you account for that difference between the national average and isolating the Vancouver market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11942             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  My personal opinion is that there is a particular quota of these kind of artists that will fit on, and you don't want to go too hard on them because they don't really represent your adult contemporary format or don't represent necessarily your micro‑niche format.  So, if your song does cross over ‑‑ there is a Feist song that got radio play here.  It was called Inside and Out and it is very much an adult contemporary song, but her first song, Mushaboom, which was extremely quirky, got almost no airplay whatsoever.  So, you can see it is almost a case‑by‑case judgement:  Do you fit our format?  People aren't championing artists necessarily or the entire body of their work.  They are championing specific songs that may or may not fit their micro‑niche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11943             So, if you are going to champion a triple A artist, you have to be dedicated to their back catalogue.  In that regard we address the airplay gap, and we still bring music by people that we know the market loves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11944             MR. HENNESSY:  One other concept that came into the development of the programming.  First of all, fundamentally radio, in particular the big block of stations clustered around the centre of the bank of the 25 to 54 demographics, they are in the tune out business.  They do everything they possibly can to have you not hit that button.  They don't play a song that is risky, they do commercial clusters at the times that are least likely to be filled in on the BBM diary so you don't reflect that you have moved.  I mean, this has been practised, rehearsed, ground down to the basic fundamentals of formatic radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11945             We are going to tend to be in the tune in business, that you will come to us, and I mean this about artists because you will know that you will go beyond hearing that one track, that there will be more diversity and more range in what they are hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11946             That will extend through to the topics that are on Barometer, the editorialists who will make you cranky and make you get on the internet and tell us what you really think.  It is a philosophy of the station which is counter to what is typical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11947             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  If I could just add a couple of things, in terms of your question about Vancouver, it is an exceptionally conservative music market, and I think that our charts emphatically prove that.  I don't think we need to go over that.  It is there.  It is in black and white.  This is a conservative radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11948             In terms of depth, it is a core value.  If you notice our research in fact underscores that empirically.  As we mentioned 75 per cent want more than the hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11949             If you feed this audience, and when you see the successful radio stations ‑‑ and maybe Sam wants to comment about that ‑‑ you will see that if you play even the songs that they like too many times, it is just another version of a hit machine except with a tune that they kind of like more than one that they would get on a conventional commercial mainstream radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11950             MR. FELDMAN:  On the rare occasion when I hear a new song that I like on the radio as I am hurting my fingers pushing dials desperately trying to hear something good I like, I never hear who that artist is.  I never hear it named, and I think that that is why Bob alludes to the context.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11951             On the face of it, I come at this more from the live music side than the radio side, but there is a direct correlation to the live music arena to what is happening in radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11952             If I look at a station in America called KCRW, it is a preeminent triple A station out of Santa Monica, as much as I like to say I did it, I know for a fact they had everything to do with establishing Norah Jones' career because they didn't just play some of her music and move on to something else, but they talked about her, they talked to her, they talked about her music.  In a time period when people can just get whatever song they want on the internet and create their own records of hits it is really, really getting difficult to establish careers and careers are what establish a small economy for an artist.  That means that they can hire people that they can not only pay, but teach how to move on and up in their own career.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11953             To me, it is absolutely critical to have a station that is embraced by this community that local artists and Canadian artists can feel like there is an involvement there, there is a station that kind of cares about not just the next song that is going to sell them an advertisement but actually has a legitimate hand in developing their career and all that goes with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11954             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And this is what is going to happen with the three hours of emerging spoken word that you have identified in your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11955             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11956             MR. HENNESSY:  I just wanted to make another quick link here, if I could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11957             We talked about having the emerging artist 15 per cent condition of licence throughout the programming.  One thing, and perhaps Sam could make a comment on this, we regard the emerging artist segment in a half hour or whatever, that emerging artist is like the opening act for Bruce Springsteen.  You are going to see Springsteen, but there is an opening act.  You can't have too many opening acts or they don't show up.  But if you are that opening act, that sets the stage for you and you are compared to the quality that people expect from Bruce Springsteen.  So, if you are good, they will say, he's as good as Bruce.  That is the concept of the emerging artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11958             MR. FELDMAN:  Hearing the technical description of what is an emerging artist is kind of interesting to me.  To me an emerging artist is someone who can't make a living and is trying very, very hard.  I happen to know a lot of emerging artists that are really qualified and really good and have a lot to say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11959             It seems to me ever since Canadian content came in, you just felt like this evil obligation that radio stations had to kind of put up with to get their licence.  I could never understand it because, having travelled to Australia and having sent artists to Australia, they are so incredibly proud of their local artists and they have many days where they play just Australian artists.  It is a pretty small country.  I don't get the whole notion that this is just some evil condition that is placed upon them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11960             To me the emerging artist program is a sales tool.  It is not just something that we have to do.  If you qualify these things properly, then you draw attention to your emerging artists program.  You get people very keen and interested.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11961             I know that my 17 year old son who is like every 17 year old son is in a band and plays guitar and all that stuff, and I am amazed at the amount of music knowledge that he has going back in time, and this is a result of him surfing the net and all those technical things that these kids do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11962             Why can't we get that on the radio?  We should be exposed to different kinds of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11963             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That is what we are hoping that between the radio industry and us we can change some of those perceptions when it comes to emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11964             There were a number of things that of course again were just said that is going to bring up a couple more questions for me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11965             Have you had an opportunity to compare your playlist with what is currently available in the market, and have you been able to establish if there is any duplication or how much duplication both in terms of artists and tracks?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11966             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  From a statistical point of view, we did a career plays to date analysis, and that is what we have termed the airplay gap.  I know the other day you got a two‑day BDS survey.  You really can't get a feel for it over a two‑day span, with all due respect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11967             But a career analysis of a song, the life span of a song, you can get a feel for it.  What we found was that there is ‑‑ well, in fact the widest play gap in all of Canadian radio exists in the Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11968             A good example of that is Blue Rodeo; iconic Canadian band, last quarter of a century.  I am proud to say that they often acknowledge that I was the first individual to play them on Canadian radio when they were a rocking little teen combo called the HiFi's, but that aside we've both got roots, Sam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11969             The new single off their latest album released in 2007, Come On it is called, played at the time of our submission 560 times across Canada in all formats, zero times, Blue Rodeo, zero times in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11970             My son, who you probably have heard is the good version of me, mentioned Sarah Harmer.  As you go through that list, you can see a song‑by‑song analysis, and that is the way we approach the duplication.  From that you can see that there is a vast difference between what we are proposing and what has empirically been played in this market, and I think you can extrapolate from that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11971             Do you want to add to that, kid?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11972             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  I would just like to say that of all the charts that we submitted, all of those songs represent a substantial, substantial airplay gap, which is indicative of the ratios that you are seeing.  There was nothing included in any of these charts that in any way indicated any kind of substantial commercial overlap for these songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11973             I really want to stress that the ratios that seem so wildly disproportionate in some of the charts that you are looking at is true of everything we listed.  The reason that we did that was because we really did want to establish that one of the commercial formulas for the success of this format in Vancouver will be the fact that it is not duplicating music.  If the market is saying that they want new music, then you can't fudge it.  You know what I mean?  You are slitting your own throat as a business enterprise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11974             I think that is where you get people who maybe want to go micro‑niche.  It's got to be new, and that doesn't necessarily mean bands that you have never heard of.  It means going deep into the vault.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11975             Statistically we believe that the airplay gap that we have put out there, and there are dozens and dozens of more examples of this, it is just simply how many charts can you hand in at any one time.  But this pattern is repeated over and over again, and the charts that we gave that we believe represented a very commercial selection of these things and a flow where you could see this new music actually makes sense as a radio station.  I covers a whole bunch of variety and it is commercially viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11976             So, to answer your question, the study was done specifically with the mind of career spins and air gap play in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11977             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Bearing that in mind, bearing in mind that you have used the term "disenchanted" ‑‑ others have used disenfranchised ‑‑ you have just told us that the Vancouver market is a very conservative market.  I am going to ask you the same question I asked Harvard.  You have a really tough road to hoe here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11978             You have people who aren't listening to radio any more or simply don't like what is currently available on the radio.  It is a conservative radio market and, yet, you are primarily introducing new music, however you choose to define it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11979             How are you going to get these people back to radio and how are you going to convince advertisers that this is the way to go?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11980             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  I will let Sherri speak to the advertising, but it is just a question of outstanding content and providing something that the people want that doesn't exist.  In terms of the disenfranchised audience, the data on that is 13 per cent out‑of‑market tuning is the highest for any major market across the country from BBM, and our research indicated that our core audience is getting music it wants from other sources:  40 per cent from CDs, 19 per cent from MP3s.  The different there being the slightly older audience we are still attached to our CDs or, in my case, vinyl albums.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11981             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good thing you didn't say 8‑tracks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11982             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Hey, they were cool.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11983             But taking it from the statistical realm, I think it might be worthwhile if we heard from two individuals who are the core audience and are the disenfranchised Vancouver listener and ask them.  They happen to be on our panel on the right, and perhaps Jenny and Erin can address that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11984             MS OUANO:  Sam mentioned KCRW, which is a station out of Santa Monica in California.  It is a triple A station, an MPR station.  For me I haven't stopped listening to radio, but I listen to that station because I can't get that kind of music or spoken word locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11985             Driving is a very frustrating experience because my favourite button is the scan button and I will try to find, just like Sam, something that will appeal, and I don't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11986             KCRW provides eclectic music which I am very keen to listen to, intelligent and respectful spoken word, and it is the place where I discover new artists.  Besides Norah Jones, they were the ones to champion Cold Play into North America, which is now mainstream, and they tend to do that a lot where, you know, six months, nine months before these people make it big, I get to hear them first on this station.  I would love an opportunity to get that locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11987             MR. GARRITY:  I don't know how much more I can add.  I think the point is being well made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11988             When we were first talking about KCRW because it is true I listen to it as well, and my husband and I both turn it on in the morning and it on all day on our computer, and speaking from a new mom's perspective because I have two little ones and I often feel quite trapped at home, which I guess is fairly common with new parents, so when I can listen to KCRW or a station that offers that kind of music that keeps me somewhat current with the type of music that I like and, frankly, in touch with the past life that I felt I have somewhat lost with kids, it means a lot to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11989             What is lacking, of course, on KCRW is representation of my community, which is why we think we have what I personally, as a disenfranchised listener, would listen to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11990             MS OUANO:  Also one quick point.  I hear more new Canadian music in the station in LA than I do on a local level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11991             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  I don't mean to interrupt this, but I kind of want to just play with the question a little bit because we do have a bunch of emerging artists and that is certainly true, but in our playlist I think we have also shown that we have a number of really successful commercial artists and they are not in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11992             It is not that this tripe A format doesn't have successful artists like KT Tunstall has a top 10 album on Billboard and that song was never played here.  Robert Plant and Alison Krauss had the number one album on Billboard, their lead single, Gone, Gone, Gone, never played here.  Paolo Nutini, who had probably one of the breakout songs of 2006 and it got thousands of airplay spins across North America, played twice in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11993             It is not just that we are going to emerging artists and we are pushing.  We try to say that we are diversity and balance, and we are very aware of that tough uphill battle, but the way you make this work is integrating very successful commercial music that this conservative market just doesn't have a format for.  They hear it, it might be a little bit quirky.  They don't have to go that far with it because they have their format.  I mean, I am making value judgements for them, I guess, but I am wondering why would you not play Paolo Nutini's New Shoes or the new single from Crowded House, which got two spins here but thousands in America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11994             It is just a question of what commercial music you choose to champion, but I think the sales stats are there, that within this format there are plenty of format leaders in the commercial world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11995             MR. FELDMAN:  If I may, in a funny kind of way I was listening to your question closely, and your question was really answered by your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11996             You said that people were disenfranchised or not liking radio, so how could we be successful?  I think that is the exact reason that we can be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11997             This example, KCRW exists in probably the toughest, unregulated radio market maybe in the world, in Los Angeles.  There are a lot of options for very commercial radio in every genre down there, and yet they are extremely successful.  What they have done is something that I would really like to see happen for us, is they become tastemakers so that people look to them to have that stamp of approval to buy into and get involved with an artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11998             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Would you also like to hear from the sales point of view?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11999             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  We will move on to the business plan in just a moment. I just have one final question just to close this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12000             Again, it is the same question I asked Harvard.  If you look at only the triple A applications in this process, if we were able to licence more than one commercial station in this market, could you co‑exist with any of the other proposals?  If we were to licence you, could we also licence any one of the other triple A formats that have been applied for during these proceedings based on your comparison with your proposal and those of the others?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12001             MR. HENNESSY:  The definition of triple A is not absolute, as has become very obvious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12002             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12003             MR. HENNESSY:  Our interpretation we believe goes to the true core of what a triple A station is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12004             In putting this together, Bob was the point person on defining our triple A and we have had a chance to look at the others, and I think you can ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12005             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  The simple answer there is we would be happy to co‑exist with any of the other applicants outside of the triple A format.  There are obviously major differences.  Many of them are micro‑niches that kind of live within us, but we don't feel that that would prevent us from making a good living here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12006             The key question, could SHORE‑FM co‑exist with another triple A station, and we do feel we could co‑exist with them.  I hope I pointed out that there are significant differences between the other triple A formats and what we are proposing, significant differences in programming philosophy and, given what we have underscored as realistic sales and audience projections, we think we could make it work.  So, yeah, we think we could co‑exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12007             MR. HENNESSY:  Boston now has three triple As, but, again, that's the American market where you have higher competition.  You can live on a two share in Boston.  It would be slim pickings here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12008             With the reduced size of the advertiser base, that does have to be a consideration.  But, yes, bring 'em on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12009             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Nothing like competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12010             MR. HENNESSY:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12011             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  We will move on to your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12012             In your share rationale revenue projections document filed with your application, you say that the impact on any station will not be dramatic, so obviously on any of the incumbents.  You also say that the average year of the increase of revenue coming into the market, fuelled by the rapid population growth forecast, should offset any financial impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12013             So you are really saying two things here.  You are saying that even if the yearly increase of revenue coming into the market, plus the rapid population growth weren't happening, you still wouldn't have an impact or you wouldn't have a major impact on the incumbents.  But then when you couple those two things, it is completely negligible.  Have I interpreted that correctly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12014             MR. HENNESSY:  You have, and I think to explain it from both perspectives, first of all I would like to have David Bray explain the research of how we arrived at these share numbers and the growth that we will have, et cetera.  Then I will ask Sherri to comment on it from the perspective of dollars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12015             David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12016             MR. BRAY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12017             There are a couple of factors involved in projecting audience share for a given format.  We look at both our independent music preferences research and BBM audience trend analysis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12018             It is impossible to look at the music preference data and extrapolate minute‑by‑minute listener behaviour.  In other words, the number of hours tuned, music preference research, which is very general in nature, can in no way be sufficiently detailed to project specific hour‑by‑hour, day‑by‑day behaviour.  This requires a much more disciplined complex examination of BBM diary data and the trends exhibited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12019             Based on our decades of experience and our look at multi‑year trends in Vancouver, as well as audience reaction to the format in a number of markets, we prepared the concise overview entitled "Vancouver Radio Projected Tuning" which you have in your binders and which was left with you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12020             Here we list not only the specifics with regard to SHORE‑FM's projected share performance, but the way in which the dominos will fall.  In other words, the specific moderate impact, if any, that the new station will have on the share of each and every other station in the Vancouver marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12021             I will let Sherri address the sales issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12022             MS PIERCE:  From a revenue perspective, you will see in our chart 7.4 we indicate that in total approximately 45 per cent of the revenue will come from other stations.  That is the variety that David was referring to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12023             You couple that with the growth in the market, and it does mitigate the revenue that comes overall or affects those stations.  Another sort of business look at it is that at any one time a solid FM station has approximately 400 active clients, and a really good AM station has about 600 active clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12024             If you take the combination of stations that we have here in the Vancouver market and you do the math on that, that is where we come to the conclusion that really only 10 per cent of the businesses are using the radio medium and, from that perspective, you also see how we can be approaching businesses that aren't being called on in the medium by other stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12025             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12026             I am now going to move on to your CCD commitments and, more specifically, your application includes $70,000 salary for a CCD coordinator who is here today.  I hate to put you on the spot, Ms. Garrity, but not every application includes the salary of a CCD coordinator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12027             MR. GARRITY:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12028             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What I want to understand more fully, first of all, is why did you include the salary of a CCD coordinator in your total, and what are going to be the duties and responsibilities of Ms. Garrity over the course of a year to justify including it in the CCD?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12029             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  We did answer that in terms of our deficiency responses, but I would be glad to go over it again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12030             As you see with our CCD initiatives, they are numerous, they are complex, we believe they are really meaningful to the community at many levels, and this is the antithesis of cutting a cheque.  If you take a look at something like the emerging talent contest, which, as we pointed out, has never been done for the triple A community, even though Roy was the architect of the Seeds Project on CFOX and he can tell you how difficult it is, in the past, the Commission has allowed the CCD coordinator, back in the day, of course, CTD coordinator and you had, when you felt that the expanse of the job required that kind of attention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12031             This is not something that you pass off to your promotions department.  This is something that is, as we say, meaningful for the community.  It is complex.  You can imagine something like the first all Canadian day at the Burnaby festival, and what kind of work that takes.  It is answering ‑‑ this is like the staff meeting, isn't it?  Does that explain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12032             It is really the expanse and the scope of the initiatives and the kind of role‑up‑the‑sleeves effort it takes to execute this kind of meaningful CCD vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12033             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I just want to be sure that, first of all, it is a 50 week a year job.  You are giving her two weeks of vacation, I assume, at a minimum.  Negotiate more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12034             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12035             MR. HENNESSY:  No, we will stay with that, that is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12036             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Now she has an agent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12037             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is the coordinator only responsible for fulfilling the CCD obligations, or will the coordinator have other responsibilities that are not covered by ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12038             MR. HENNESSY:  You are talking in promotions?  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12039             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  I will tell you my vision of a radio station and a great radio station.  It is when your receptionist is the star in the marketplace.  It is an organic vision.  All the parts interrelate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12040             I actually got a little chill as I was speaking to you, remembering the days on the shop floor.  That is when a radio station is in full flight.  It is a band, it is a great rock and roll band is what it is.  So, that is my vision of a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12041             Does that answer your question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12042             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Not really, but go on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12043             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  I think the answer is that the job is so demanding that, yes, 50 weeks a year, that the person who takes this job, Erin, is going to have to concentrate on this.  It really is very demanding.  We have other things like VAMS and that is going to take coordinating.  When you want to start up something new like the Music Camp program here, you want to do it right and you need somebody who can wake up in the morning and say this is my job and this is what I am there to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12044             That said, I think it is important to stress that Erin is multi‑talented.  I mean, she has started up news room in Africa; she has done all kinds of television production.  A voice like that inside your team is unbelievably valuable.  You want to keep someone like that there 50 weeks a year with two weeks vacation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12045             MR. GARRITY:  Or more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12046             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Because everybody fees into everybody.  Hey, Erin, we are building a new station, you built a new station, what are your thoughts?  But at end of the day, the responsibilities demarcated by this position are specifically more than enough to fill her time, and I am sure she will probably hate us for it in a year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12047             MR. HENNESSY:  Just one second to briefly explain what this philosophy is like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12048             I was managing two radio stations, and we were re‑energizing, re‑philosophizing, re‑purposing, trying to pay the bills, and you pull together a team of managers and teammates to do this and then you start recruiting and hiring.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12049             One of the things we did, and I will openly admit it and I stole it from Disney, is take the typical management triangle where you have the big guy on top and the next layer and the next layer, and their purpose in life is to get up in the morning and come to the office and make life hell for everybody down here because you are going to do what I know is absolutely right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12050             We adopted the philosophy that none of us were that bright, but we had a lot of bright people with us.  So we flipped it around and we said we were going to build a dynasty.  Eighteen months later we were number one AM, number one FM.  Profits were up I believe about 50 per cent, but I spent a little more than I should have, but we accomplished that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12051             The whole mission was when you hired somebody, you told them when you get up in the morning I want you to be so excited about coming to work here, that you don't get up saying, I have to go to work; you get up and you say, this is what I want to do today, and my job is to help you do it.  That is the philosophy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12052             MR. GARRITY:  If I may, just one final word on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12053             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I think you should.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12054             MR. GARRITY:  Yes, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12055             Because we are talking about a very large portfolio of content essentially, and a liaison is clearly needed, at least that is how I felt as well when I looked through the description of what was all involved, I mean, we are talking about a liaison between the artists, the music community, the station, production companies, the organizations in which we are supporting and essentially, and most importantly, providing a lot of content for the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12056             I see that it is really important to have an ongoing ‑‑ that this is an ongoing responsibility and an important role, a crucial role in this station and what makes it really unique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12057             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If in our deliberations, once we take a look again at the transcript and we take a look again at your answer in deficiencies and we decide, you know what, the $70,000 is not an eligible CCD initiative, how would you redirect that $70,000, or the other side of that is would you simply decrease your total CCD contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12058             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  We are comfortable with that level.  We would be disappointed, but obviously the CCD initiative vision, if you will, is at the very core of what this station is about.  We would still go forward.  We would re‑distribute the money.  I couldn't tell you exactly where right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12059             We were really moved by Cara's music camp program which, for the people in the room that may not be familiar with it, it is music education for disadvantaged youths and with a particular emphasis on first nations.  It is really going to the east side and, at the risk of sounding like Bruce Springsteen on stage, we do believe that music can save your immortal soul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12060             There is that element, that music is one element that can pull people out of trouble and music education is vital in that regard.  So, we would continue forward.  If you ruled that way, I hope that we convinced you that the portfolio is significant and big enough in scope that it does take that kind of dedicated individual.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12061             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Mackowycz and to your colleagues, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12062             Madam Chair, those are all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12063             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12064             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I believe Commissioner Menzies has a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12065             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Hopefully a quick question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12066             I was very interested in your description of an industry market with a very low risk tolerance and the tales of Feist and the New Pornographers, et cetera, not getting any airplay.  I was really interested in your terms "hyperlocal" and "opposition to ghettoization."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12067             Just one little thing getting in my way here and I just want to give you the chance to clear it up so that it doesn't unnecessarily linger.  Because when I was reading the supplementary brief with your ideas about some original programming, the Folk Roots Canadiana with Jim Byrnes, Streets of Vancouver aboriginal music, plus aboriginal program and world music programs, I was looking at the placement of those in your supplementary brief and the Jim Byrnes program was at 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. on Sunday and The Streets of Vancouver was 6:00 p.m. Sunday, Aboriginal Music 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. Saturday, and World Music I think it was Sunday at 10:00 to 11:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12068             It left me with the impression that that wasn't as risk tolerant necessarily as everything I had seen today.  I don't want to reach any conclusions on that, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to address that while the thought was lingering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12069             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  I appreciate that.  You are going to be hearing from Jim Byrnes, as he intervenes on our behalf later this week.  He can speak from his own personal experience.  A great talent behind both microphones, live on stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12070             Those weekend shows are really a springboard into those worlds because really at the core of the station is the fact that this music is mixed into our rotation and again, I will stress, in peak hours.  So, those shows are almost in addition to, as I say, a springboard, but radio at its finest is a soundtrack to the day, and Sunday morning ‑‑ I am going to quote Kris Kristofferson here ‑‑ Sunday Morning Coming Down.  There is kind of a vibe and a feel and a texture to Sunday morning, so the show lives there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12071             Saturday night we may well roll up the carpet into a kind of rootsy Saturday night stomp and that will fit the groove there.  The other shows ‑‑ I programmed this kind of radio station.  There is an element of back to the future with what we are doing in terms of what worked and, quite frankly, what guys like Roy and I and individuals built with progressive FM radio.  We took those lessons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12072             This is why, for example, we are doing B.C. Barometer.  People would say why would you do a news magazine or an arts/news magazine combination show in the middle of the day?  You could be playing 12 more hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12073             There is something more to building a brand than that.  In my experience, that kind of show in the past served the brand and the station and the audience exceptionally well.  But to specifically answer your question, the main focus is on those genres in the overall mix.  Those shows are in addition to, and they springboard and they cross reference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12074             MR. HENNESSY:  Again, it has to do with lifestyle.  You couldn't feature a 45‑minute or a one‑hour category 3 program at 4:00 to 5:00 in the afternoon when the average drive home here, with luck, is 45 minutes.  It is the logic of matching the program to the lifestyle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12075             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Commissioner, I got into show business because I failed math, so I don't want to necessarily want to become a computer that is kicking out punch cards, but the number of spins for these shows also in terms of the overall week balance, it doesn't ghettoize this music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12076             My father makes a good point which is the Tequila Sunrise show is really designed to be kind of a hit show because you could see people on Sunday mornings loving to get up and get their coffee and just settle right into that and there is a real sales potential to that show and that is great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12077             But in terms of the 15 per cent overall commitment to emerging artists, and the 20 per cent commitment to category 3, there is still enough room and this is why we have stressed balance in our programming day.  It is the right level so that even throughout the peak of the week, then, you can still get a song or two of this nature that you are speaking of during the hour, every hour.  It is not overcommitting to it during the week so you make your week‑to‑commercial, but it is also not burying it all in the weekend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12078             I mean, we feel that we found the right balance to push forward this as a measured vision of the station, and we really do believe that fundamentally if you are selling a new format, your format has to sound like your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12079             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you very much for clearing that up.  No more questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12080             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12081             I just have one question.  I found our discussion about the Vancouver music market being very conservative and especially your comparison of how your triple A compares with the other applicant's triple A's very, very helpful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12082             I just need to clarify one thing, though.  When you were comparing it to Pattison's triple A, I am just talking about what we hear on air right now.  I am not going to talk about staffing and all.  So, what we hear on air, the difference between Pattison's triple A and yours is Pattison's is more spoken word; is that the main difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12083             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Yes, they have 25 hours of spoken word and we have 14.5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12084             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of the music, is there any significant difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12085             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  It is obvious that the music is more acoustic based.  It is more on the folk‑soft rock side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yours is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12087             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  No, Pattison's is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12088             Ours is, as I said, I believe strongly it is the only true, if you will, textbook triple A that has been proposed to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12089             MR. HENNESSY:  From the demographic point of view, the population is 51/49 female, and we believe our format will be 52/48.  So, we in everything we do, we are going to represent the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12090             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ JR.:  Madam Commissioner, if I may, one of the things that really stood out to me as we were going over the different applications of play was that Pattison prominently featured Sarah McLachlan as an example of someone that they would be championing.  And I think that in our own conception of things it is not that Sarah McLachlan isn't a great artist, but she doesn't necessarily represent what the triple A community best needs as a sort of format icon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12091             There were other songs that were played that were sort of softer rock and you could hear more on adult contemporary, and I am not sure we would go there.  I mean, they get a lot of play already and it probably wouldn't sit right in our music mix because people who wanted a little bit more edge would hear that and go, they're blowing it, and we don't want to go there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12092             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12093             Do you want to add any more to your response to Commissioner Cugini on how many you believe can be licensed and who else in addition to you, if you were to be licensed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12094             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  I think we answered that.  Would you like me to restate it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12095             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12096             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  Perhaps it is time to sum it up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12097             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe legal has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12098             MS PINSKY:  I just have one question of clarification for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12099             You have committed to 126 hours of local programming.  What percentage of that would constitute live‑to‑air programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12100             MR. HENNESSY:  A hundred and twenty‑five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12101             MR. BOB MACKOWYCZ SR.:  There is one repeat of B.C. Barometer Saturday morning at 6:00 and other than that it is 125 live local.  They are the two pillars of SHORE‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12102             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12103             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you like to do your last minute pitch now, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12104             MR. HENNESSY:  Thank you for this interesting discussion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12105             We really do believe that triple A is the best format to introduce into Vancouver radio at this time.  Our market research shows that it is popular and so does everyone else's, apparently.  It has the potential to best address the community's needs and that includes local artists and listeners too.  So we wish to articulate why we feel that we have the right formula for making the most out of this triple A format in the Vancouver area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12106             Our balanced programming vision will give unprecedented exposure for local and national emerging artists.  We have built a playlist that is also commercially viable.  Our audience share projections and the revenue flowing from them are realistic and sustainable.  We have a financial plan and the backing that allows us to build this business and grow as the format becomes more familiar in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12107             The CCD plan is designed to create new audio content for broadcast wherever possible, and we put a premium on the spoken word content, which will make for a station that has a real personality, a real character.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12108             Our team is new, it is local, it is independent, but it is made up of leaders in the field of radio, music and business.  This station is all about live and local broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12109             I know that Sam and David would probably not want to hear this about themselves, but this team is also led by people who are an integral part of Vancouver life and culture.  They have dedicated their time, energy and support to dozens of local institutions and many of this city's community leaders have written letters of support of this bid because of this station's potential and because of this team's abilities, its track record and its character.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12110             For all these reasons, we have the right format and we have the right plan moving forward to make the most of this important opportunity and we thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Hennessy and your panel.  Thank you for your time and your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12112             We will take a ten‑minute break, and come back at 11:40 for the next application, please.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1140 / Reprise à 1140

LISTNUM 1 \l 12113             THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12114             We will now proceed with item 8, which is an application by Rock 95 Broadcasting for a licence to operate an English‑ language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12115             Please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12116             MR. BINGLEY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12117             My name is Doug Bingley.  I am President of Rock 95 Broadcasting and I would like to introduce my panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12118             To my left is Mr. Larry Campbell on the far left.  He is President of Campbell Media Research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12119             Beside Larry is Linda Dawe.  Linda is President of Music Solutions and she has many years' experience working directly with indie artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12120             To my immediate left is Dave Carr, our Program Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12121             To my right is Cathy Buller, our Comptroller.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12122             Beside Cathy is Linda McGregor, our Aboriginal Programs Coordinator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12123             Finally, on my far right is Tom Manton, our Vice‑President of Sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12124             Commissioners before I begin the presentation that you have in your hands, I would like to tell you a short story.  When I was a boy, my parents owned a cottage on Georgian Bay, which is part of the Great Lakes.  Like most kids I liked to fish.  I caught lots of fish, but usually they were little perch or bass.  Sometimes, though, my dad would pull out old pictures taken in the 1940s and in the 1950s showing gigantic lake trout that they used to pull out.  But by the time I came along, all the lake trout were gone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12125             It was always a mystery what happened to the lake trout.  There were lots of theories:  Maybe eels coming up the St. Lawrence killed them off; maybe it was overfishing, but no one ever really knew for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12126             A few years ago I read a magazine article that finally explained what happened to those fish.  The amazing thing is the answer was always in those pictures that my dad showed me.  Let's take a look.  If you look closely, you can see it is right there.  I don't know if you can see it.  The fact is there is only big fish in that photo.  No one noticed that they weren't catching any little fish, but the fact was in the 1930s pollution and DDT killed off the hatcheries.  So in the 40s and 50s, when the fishing looked like it could never get better, the lake trout were already extinct in Georgian Bay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12127             You are probably wondering why am I telling fish stories in a CRTC hearing?  There is a lot to be learned from that story because today Canadian radio stations are deriving wonderful revenues as we deliver to advertisers the baby boom generation, but at the lower end we are not replacing listeners and tuning levels are dropping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12128             Younger people are rejecting conventional radio in favour of MP3 players and streaming via the net and, unfortunately our industry isn't paying much attention.  The fishing is just too good.  It hasn't happened yet, but if radio does not address the problem of reduced tuning by younger listeners, we are doomed to becoming irrelevant to an entire generation, at which point radio effectively does become extent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12129             Could it happen?  Well, let's take a look at some statistics.  According to the BBM, over the last ten years radio's overall reach has dropped by almost 3 percentage points.  Even more alarming, among teens reach has dropped by almost 10 percentage points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12130             I am not talking about hours tuned here.  I am talking about turning on the radio.  Twenty per cent of teens never listen to the radio at all.  Commissioners, I don't care what industry you are in, those types of statistics could only be described as frightening.  Twenty per cent of your replacement market has just disappeared.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12131             It is in the face of that reality that the CRTC has called for applications for a new Vancouver radio station.  We believe that it is time for a new format, a format that will engage younger listeners, a format that will benefit the entire radio industry and ultimately the Canadian music industry.  It is called the indie format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12132             We would like to further establish the need for this format and Linda Dawe will explain to you why an indie station in Vancouver is so important to emerging Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12133             MS DAWE::  Thank you, Doug.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12134             As a radio song promoter, I have worked with emerging and established artists.  Occasionally I have managed to break through the tomorrow 40 charts and launch a career in the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12135             Emerging artists are those who pay for their own CD and pay for their own promotion.  They are known as independent artists as opposed to established artists who have the support of the corporate major labels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12136             The best way to demonstrate the critical need of the indie format is to describe to you the process that I go through every day while promoting indie emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12137             A current example is a band called Secret Suburbia, who were voted the number one indie band in Toronto via the internet.  They have toured the Scandinavian countries and were playing dates in Toronto and Montreal.  The band's music had been licensed to film and television, including Fox's hit series 24, MTV's The Real World/Road Rules, and a new movie Path To Nine‑Eleven.  My job was to help them achieve their dream, which was to be heard on radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12138             For me as a song promoter it seemed reasonable that the band might be able to get the attention of the music directors.  They had a track record, a good album and they were committed.  We started out with their first single last September entitled "See."  Here is the reaction that we got from radio programmers, and by the way, these are typical comments no matter what the project is:  We need numbers; we are not a leader; let's see who else adds it; we only have a couple of slots for new Canadian bands; we have to put in the established artists first; we are watching it.  One of my personal favourites.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12139             The excuses are just endless.  We were in a catch 22 situation that most emerging artists suffer from.  No one will add it unless someone else has already added the song.  After ten weeks of promoting a song to radio, the response was, well, this is an old single, there is more current music coming out, so now we have to move on.  Then radio adds another song by an established artist like Nickelback.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12140             So, here is the question?  How can we break the vicious cycle of who plays the artist first?  I believe that an indie station in Vancouver will do just that.  It will break the cycle.  It will provide enormous benefits to Canadian talent across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12141             There is great Canadian talent out there that cannot get on the radio.  The dream of emerging artists to be given a fair chance to be heard on radio, and that is why we need an emerging indie format like V104.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12142             Members of the panel, I am sure that this is not the first time that you have heard about the problems facing emerging artists, but now is a time when you can do something about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12143             MR. BINGLEY:  Thanks, Linda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12144             I would now like to call on Dave Carr, our VP of Programming to give you some specifics about the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12145             MR. CARR:  Thank you, Doug.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12146             Commissioners, there is one key point that I would like to make.  The indie format is a legitimate format, and although a new idea, it is something we believe in five years will be just as recognized as any other format.  An indie station is a culmination of music and spoken word that relates to an entire lifestyle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12147             First, the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12148             By definition, most indie‑based music is new music, generally performed by emerging artists.  Indie artists are independent.  They pay all the freight.  They don't have to report to anyone.  They control the creative output and this leads to an incredible amount of diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12149             The target audience is interested in the new, the unique and welcomes a variety of musical styles.  The one thing they have in common, though, is the rejection.  They can't get their music on what they would call corporate‑based radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12150             For an indie station to be successful, it has to be true to that reality.  It must be very responsive to listener tastes at the local level as opposed to national, chart‑based programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12151             With our proposed format, approximately three‑quarters of the overall music is from indie or emerging artists, and a minimum of 40 per cent of the music will be from Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12152             The core of the format is rock based, but the eclectic nature of indie will allow us to play a wide variety of styles.  The spoken word is equally important in this audience.  Indie is not simply a music style or a category.  The fans do more than listen.  They become involved in an entire indie music scene.  In order to relate to our audience, our announcers must become involved as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12153             Our market research identified a very strong demand for an indie station in Vancouver, not surprising with the strong indie scene here in the city.  If we could please start the video and let's take a look at what the station will mean for our listeners.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 12154             Let's turn for a moment to our CCD programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12155             While it is not part of the CCD program, I would like to point out that the biggest benefit that we bring to the table is airplay for emerging artists in Canada's third largest market.  It is a huge benefit that quite simply cannot be quantified.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12156             In addition to that, we are proposing over $4 million in direct benefits.  They include support of New Music West, development of a second Vancouver indie festival, recording funds for independent artists, and direct financial support for artists through our website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12157             But two of our programs are truly unique and we would like to talk about them in greater detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12158             Our youth at risk music program will be developed in association with the Boy's and Girl's Clubs of Greater Vancouver.  We view this project as a pilot that will lead to other such programs across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12159             This one initiative inherently provides enormous leverage.  It provides three major benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12160             First, it has been shown that the best way to keep young people on the right path is to involve them in positive group activity.  One of the most universal interests of young people is music.  So we now that this will be a powerful program for social change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12161             Second, and this relates more directly to the traditional definition of CCD donations, the majority of the funding for this project will flow directly to Canadian musicians simply because they will be providing the musical training.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12162             And finally, a key objective of the program is to develop young Canadian talent.  This program will help young people develop the skills and discipline which are necessary for them to succeed in the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12163             And that is the final benefit.  One day there will be an internationally recognized artist who will credit his or her start to this initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12164             When that happens, I hope we all remember this day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12165             MR. BINGLEY:  Thank you, David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12166             Linda McGregor will now address our CCD benefits for native broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12167             MS McGREGOR:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12168             As you are all aware, the Broadcasting Act specifically recognizes the importance of native radio.  You have licensed a number of aboriginal stations and the CRTC is to be commended for that.  But, the challenge has been and continues to be the lack of funds and training.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12169             Commissioners, one of the best predators for future performance is past actions and Rock 95 broadcasting has been a leader in the development of native raider for over two decades.  With your indulgence I would like to briefly review Rock 95's record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12170             Back in the 1980s, we were the first to propose support for native broadcasting as a CTD commitment, and this concept was quickly picked up by other broadcasters across the country, which brought considerable resources to aboriginal radio.  In fact, recently, the CRTC changed their policies to recognize these initiatives as a full CCD benefit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12171             When Rock 95 launched in 1988, funds and training were provided for the development of a weekly native show, Spirit Winds.  That commitment was for one licence term, but when the original seven‑year term ended, the company continued to run the show and it continues to this date.  As an aboriginal broadcaster, I have had the privilege of acting as host and producer of the show for over 16 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12172             In 1997 we applied for a Toronto licence.  As a CTD benefit we committed funding to set up a national native radio network.  We worked with Gary Farmer on this concept and that is when Aboriginal Voices Radio was born.  In the end, the frequency was awarded to CBC, but the experience served as a springboard for Gary who moved forward and eventually launched the AVR network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12173             When we applied for another licence to serve Barrie in 1999, we adapted our plans, proposing funding and training to develop radio stations for four local first nation communities.  As a result, the native owned and operated stations have successfully launched and are a focal point in their respective communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12174             That is our history, and with B.C. being home to Canada's second largest aboriginal population, here is what we are proposing as part of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12175             First, we will provide funding for native radio serving six communities on Vancouver Island.  We will supply and install all transmitting and studio equipment, as well as operating grants for each station over a period of seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12176             Secondly, we are proposing to provide an annual broadcast journalism scholarship to BCIT, with preference for aboriginal applicants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12177             Third, we believe from the start that a strong national native network would be an important resource for community stations, so we have pledged support for Aboriginal Voices Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12178             Finally, we have committed to provide training at the local station level, as well as internship and other training positions for local native broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12179             Among the many benefits that flow from this proposal, community‑based stations support native language, culture and they engage local youth who become involved in their operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12180             An added benefit is the fact that these stations attract tuning by non‑native listeners from surrounding communities because of their unique format, thereby acting as a bridge between two cultures.  That is what our proposals can achieve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12181             Finally, Commissioners, I want you to know that these are very real benefits and they are important to the native community.  As a result of our work, the Rock 95 staff have been recognized with numerous awards, including an eagle feather, which is one of the highest honours one can receive and we bring this same commitment to the development of aboriginal radio with the application before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12182             MR. BINGLEY:  Thank you, Linda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12183             Commissioners, I am sure that you can see the many benefits of our plans, but we are proposing something new, and as is the case with any new idea, the opening questions have to be will it work and can we deliver.  Those are very fair questions, and I would like to address them at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12184             As Linda mentioned, I put together the concept that became Barrie's Rock 95 over 20 years ago.  At that time, conventional wisdom held that smaller markets could not support a rock station.  Most felt that the concept just wasn't practical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12185             Although there were many sceptics, the CRTC could see the vision and they approved our application.  It was a very brave decision by the Commission and by the panel of that day, but it paid off.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12186             The format was enormously successful, and other broadcasters saw that success, and the next thing you knew they were following our lead.  Today rock is a common format in markets of all sizes and listeners everywhere have benefitted as a result of that one licensing decision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12187             Now we are here to do it again, and I want you to know that we understand the challenge of developing something new.  To ensure our success, we have built a business plan that is based on conservative revenue projections and tightly controlled budgets, with a reserve fund in excess of $3 million to cover unexpected expenses or revenue shortfalls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12188             In fact, the low cost, high innovation nature of the indie format is a perfect match for an independent broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12189             Now one other big question:  Are we up to the challenge of the Vancouver market?  Do we have the necessary experience?  Well, in addition to our success in Canada, we are the majority partner in a joint venture based in St. Petersburg, Russia.  That is a market similar in size to Vancouver.  In 1998 we launched cheets diui nusto e shest, which for the benefit of the stenographer is Radio Hits 90.6.  That is a Hot AC radio station and the station is profitable and it has grown into a network of eight radio stations across northwest Russia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12190             When you consider the logistics of that project, I believe you can safely conclude that we do have the necessary management skills to succeed here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12191             Commissioners, you have held up the challenge to support emerging artists.  You have asked for new ideas to ensure that radio continues to thrive.  We all want radio to remain relevant to the Canadian public.  We are responding to that challenge and now we are asking for your support to help make this a reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12192             Thank you for your attention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12193             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Bingley.  I will ask Commissioner Williams to lead the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12194             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Bingley and panellists.  Welcome to Vancouver.  Fishing is still quite good here, from what I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12195             MR. BINGLEY:  I had salmon for dinner last night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12196             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Your proposal and your application have been very complete and have answered many of the questions that I prepared, but I still have a couple of pages that we will have to work our way through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12197             Just from your opening presentation this morning, tell me a bit about the Spirit Winds program.  What was the content of it, describe the program, educate us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12198             MR. BINGLEY:  Linda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12199             MS McGREGOR:  Commissioner Williams, Spirit Winds is a weekly one‑hour program that broadcasts on Rock 95.  It airs in central Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12200             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What time of the day does it come on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12201             MS McGREGOR:  It comes on on Sunday evening from 11:00 p.m. until midnight.  As many specialty programs air at that time of the evening when they are part of a specific station, such as Rock 95, then that was the time slot that we started out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12202             So, the content grew as the aboriginal music industry grew.  But it started out a basic format, a combination of interviews, whether it be with musicians, political leaders around issues of the day, a combination of taking from the native newspapers that are available or also that are from out in this area, to give a news glimpse of not only our local news, our regional news, but also our national news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12203             I was given the creative freedom to provide music that was reflective of the native community, and so it represented a combination of powwow music, blues music, rock and roll, and many of it had the aboriginal I think story telling element or songs.  Whether they be blues or rock and roll, they still had a message about aboriginal identity, who we are as a people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12204             That has evolved over time with the popularity of the program in both the native and the non‑native community, growing to a point where people were sending their music CDs to me.  I would receive calls about wanting interviews to take place.  Interestingly, I also received a number of requests from the non‑native community to come and speak to whether it was a class or their rotary club or a woman's group or any number of groups to come and speak about the aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12205             So, music presented that bridge to link the two cultures.  So, it has been actually an evolution that even surprised me because during that 16‑year period, I saw the introduction of the Juno category, Best Music of Aboriginal Canada, then the Grammys followed suit with a similar category, Best Music of Aboriginal Canada, and many aboriginal music festivals and, of course, now we have the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards and a number of local music festivals, aboriginal music festivals happening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12206             Actually, Rock 95 sponsors one that happens in our region called Res Dock to showcase what started out as local artists, but interestingly we also had an aboriginal artist from B.C. at the first concert.  So, it has really evolved into something beyond my wildest dreams and I am very proud to have been a part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12207             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Ms McGregor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12208             Another comment in your presentation that intrigued me was your involvement and the majority ownership of eight stations in Russia, with the first one being in St. Petersburg.  What type of market share do you enjoy in St. Petersburg?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12209             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, there is 24 commercial radio stations in the market, and we are ranked mid in the market.  We are ranked number 12 in the market.  As a consequence, we are profitable.  The station alone actually generates about $250,000 a year in profits, which we have reinvested into growing this network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12210             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12211             My questions are similar to other similar categories to what other applicants have received, and in your particular case we are going to focus a bit on the economic analysis and then move into the programming and some of your CCD initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12212             I have noted that a large part of your strategy rests on your ability to repatriate younger listeners who have moved away from radio in favour of other mediums such as internet streaming and MP3s.  What elements of your proposal do you feel will make it highly compelling to these listeners to modify their current listening habits in order to tune to your proposed station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12213             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, back to the fishing analogy again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12214             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12215             MR. BINGLEY:  Fish are endangered.  Fortunately they are not gone yet.  The majority, of course, of these people are still somewhat engaged with Canadian radio.  But I want you to consider for a moment, think for a moment about your three favourite radio stations and imagine that they were taken away.  Imagine how your feeling would be.  You would feel, I am sure, totally rejected by the broadcasting system.  In fact, that is how these groups of listeners feel.  They feel disenfranchised.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12216             So it is no wonder that they are shifting to iPod and other technologies.  That is really a solitary experience.  An iPod is not part of a community.  Radio's real strength is the fact that it is a community of listeners.  I like to think of it almost as a third dimension.  So, a third dimension to Vancouver is radio; it is something that people connect together and form a community around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12217             It is still show business; it is still relevant for people.  So, how we win is by ensuring that we have relevant music, relevant content, and telling their stories in talking directly to these people, making them become involved and making them feel part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12218             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have indicated in your supplementary brief on schedule 1, page 15 that your revenue projections are based on a conservative growth rate of 4 per cent for the Vancouver market.  However, your financial projections indicate that you are projecting compound annual growth of 18 per cent between years 4 and 7.  What is your basis for estimating that you can grow at a rate that is four times over your own growth estimate of 4 per cent for the Vancouver market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12219             MR. BINGLEY:  Sorry, are you talking about our revenue growth?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12220             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12221             MR. BINGLEY:  Let me pass that to Tom Manton, please, to address that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12222             MR. MANTON:  Thank you, Doug.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12223             Commissioner, on a percentage basis, when you look at that, if we put it in absolute numbers, I think our growth is approximately $547,000 a year, which with a sales force of six people on the street is less than $100,000 each, breaking down to less than $2,000 a week each.  So it certainly isn't an unrealistic target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12224             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It sounds like you have too many sales people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12225             In the area of programming, you offer what you have termed an indie independent artist format, which appears to be rooted in new or alternative rock, alternative pop and rock.  How do you distinguish yourself from CFOX, given your share of rock orientation?  Do you see any overlaps in terms of artists or selections, and how much of an overlap do you see, if any?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12226             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, I am just going to pass that to Mr. Carr in a moment, but the general answer to that is very little overlap.  Dave, perhaps you can elaborate on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12227             MR. CARR:  Absolutely.  Indie rock and indie pop are the most common groupings that conform to the overall indie sound and both styles will be blended throughout the station.  We will also be able to work with other individual styles.  A feature example would be a two‑hour feature called The Chill Out Lounge, which is more mood‑based eclectic music.  This is music you wouldn't hear on any stations that are in the market like CFOX.  They are mainstream radio stations and we are independent of the mainstream.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12228             MR. BINGLEY:  I think the differentiator would be they are very much chart based, they are very much hit based, whereas we are really the exact opposite of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12229             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, that is how you see yourselves bringing diversity to the marketplace, is that key difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12230             MR. BINGLEY:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12231             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I note in your application that you intend to provide a total of four hours and 43 minutes of news, weather, traffic and sports coverage in each broadcast week.  Of that, 50 per cent will be locally focused, while 20 per cent will be regional.  The rest will be split evenly between national and international stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12232             The Commission has a fairly strict definition of news, which is separate from weather, traffic, sports and entertainment.  When you talk about news in your application how are you framing it?  A second part to this question:  How much of your information packaging will therefore be devoted to pure news as it is defined by the Commission?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12233             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, most of our newscasts, we actually have on schedule 1, page 22, a breakdown of those casts.  We have majors and minors.  They will be either three minutes or two minutes in length, as I am sure you have noticed is the news component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12234             When it comes to the actual content of the news, what is very important is that it is relevant to our target market.  That means that many of the stories have to be written and skewed in such a way that the target group can relate to it.  So, it doesn't mean we are not going to have hard news there.  It is more a matter of writing style and the story line up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12235             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Bingley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12236             I would like to clarify a few points with you regarding your CCD initiatives.  In particular, I would like to talk to you about your funding for the Vancouver Indie Festival, your funding reserved for a recording package and the money you set aside for web support of emerging talent.  I also want a little more information on your support for the Youth At Risk program and your proposed support for first nations community radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12237             Beginning with the indie festival, you have noted you intend to provide certain amounts to the funding of a talent coordinator.  Can you tell me about this talent coordinator?  If it is helpful, will this position be full or part time?  Will the employee have other duties in addition to this at the station?  Will the individual in question be devoted exclusively to overseeing and distributing funds or again will they have other duties?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12238             MR. BINGLEY:  To my understanding we haven't filed a talent coordinator position as a direct contribution, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12239             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Typically the Commission has accepted funding for talent coordinators in the past.  So, if you have not filed and if we decide that funding of this type is in fact ineligible, how will this impact the rollout of the indie festival?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12240             MR. BINGLEY:  In terms of the indie festival, the funding that we are going to be providing is going to be going to New Music West.  Actually, one of the intervenors who will be appearing later on in the hearing manages and runs that festival.  But it is our understanding that that funding will be going directly to the artists.  So, it will really not be going to a talent coordinator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12241             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's talk a little bit about the recording package you intend to offer.  You know that the CCD funding should flow to third parties, but you have indicated that some of the funding involved be set aside for studio time.  Can you confirm that the studio in question will indeed be that of a third party and not that of your own station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12242             MR. BINGLEY:  Absolutely, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12243             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It seems that the recording package is intertwined with a music club‑based competition.  Can you tell me a bit about that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12244             MR. BINGLEY:  We have run a similar type of program in Barrie in the past.  We call it Local and Loud.  Dave, maybe you could just describe how that works in Barrie because it is a good descriptor of how we would run it here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12245             MR. CARR:  It is actually on right now in the Barrie market, and we do have basically bands go up against each other every week and after ten weeks the top ten bands go up against each other.  The winner then gets a full recording package, airplay on the station, the works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12246             Actually, I was just judging last week, and it has such a huge impact because one of the mothers of the band actually came up to me, of the band from last year, just to thank me and say what an impact it had on their children.  They were getting a little discouraged about what to do with their music.  They are really, really talented.  So now they have the CD.  Now it is being played on rock 95.  They are actually being tracked by Linda Dawe and doing very well.  So it is really nice to see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12247             The buzz that it created in their community just outside of Barrie is staggering.  So, it is a great program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12248             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Carr.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12249             Mr. Bingley, you have proposed something of a novelty with your web‑based support initiative.  I have noted that infrastructure costs of this website will be funded separately from your CCD contributions.  I would like to get a few more details about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12250             Sites like these will face incredible competition from established players like iTunes and others.  What happens if the website isn't as popular as you hoped?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12251             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, we view a website and the internet really as an extension of the radio station.  We view the internet as just one other transmitter.  So, you talk about AM/FM.  Well, we talk about AM/FM and the internet.  Particularly with this format, we very much plan to incorporate the website into all aspects of the programming.  So, we will be talking about the site quite a bit.  We will be driving people to the site.  There will be blogs on the site.  There will be the ability to interact with other listeners.  We are going to have the ability to do music testing and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12252             So, there is going to be a lot of interaction with the site.  So, we are not competing directly with them.  I think we have a lot of value we are adding, and there is going to be a lot of hits on that, as there is on our current site in Barrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12253             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you hope to profit from this venture in any way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12254             MR. BINGLEY:  It is not in our immediate plans, but certainly in the long run that would be great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12255             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How much station promotion will be done on this website?  Will it linked directly to the station website?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12256             MR. BINGLEY:  If I could just address your previous question, just to clarify, would we profit from it.  It will be the station website I was referring to, not the talent portion of the website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12257             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you hope to profit from the talent portion of the website?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12258             MR. BINGLEY:  No, not at all, sir, and it is going to be integrated with the station website.  That is why we have not shown the development of that as a CCD benefit.  It is an indirect benefit because it is integrated with our website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12259             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How do you plan on choosing the artist for exposure on the website?  What other artists will be featured on the website?  Will they all be Canadian?  If you could also in your answer explain how this initiative is more than just a normal cost of doing business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12260             MR. BINGLEY:  Yes, Commissioner, to answer your last question first, as I mentioned, the indirect portion, things like band width and the ability to download, we are not showing that as a direct benefit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12261             The direct contribution is actual money that will be paid directly to the artists.  So that is very distinct for our day‑to‑day operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12262             I am sorry, could you restate the question there?  That is what happens when you answer the second half first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12263             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We are interested in how you will choose the artist for exposure on the website and will they all be Canadian and are there other artists on the site?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12264             MR. BINGLEY:  I will make that simple, then.  I will pass that to Mr. Carr.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12265             MR. CARR:  That is simple.  Of course, all the artists that we feature that are on play on the station will be streamed live, but as far as individual podcasting, for example, certainly when we are doing interviews with local bands that this audience really feels passionately about and likes to support, those would be the ones featured on the website as far as podcasting and of course contests and local bands.  They would be featured most on the website, the Canadian emerging artists for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12266             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Moving into the area of your Youth At Risk program, you have indicated that you will hire musical talent to act as instructors and coordinators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12267             Typically when the Commission has accepted this kind of initiative in the past, it has been done through a third party.  Astral, for instance, when it bought Standard Radio funnelled some funding through the Dixon Music Hall in Toronto as part of its benefits package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12268             Have you investigated the possibility of establishing this initiative through a third party educational institution, and will any of the artists be affiliated with your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12269             MR. BINGLEY:  We approached the Boy's and Girl's Clubs of Greater Vancouver, who have some experience with this type of initiative.  They have run this sort of thing in the past, but they have had lack of funding to do this.  So, it is going to be administered and operated by that group.  No one associated with the station will be receiving any funding nor any payments as a result of this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12270             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Moving into the area of your proposed support for first nation community radio stations, I would like to clarify a few points.  Which communities will receive support?  Have you had any discussions with any specific communities or these communities to date?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12271             MR. BINGLEY:  Yes, we have, and I will pass that to Linda McGregor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272             MS McGREGOR:  Thank you, Doug.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273             Commissioner Williams, the groundwork has very much been established and a foundation laid out to build native radio with first nation communities on Vancouver Island.  They represent two tribal affiliates.  One being the Cosalish tribunal group, and the other the Nuchatlaht tribal group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274             The Nuchatlaht tribal groups are located in the northern part of Vancouver, the Mowachaht First Nation and the Hesquiaht First Nation.  These are, by their own definition, remote communities, as remote as you can be and still have road access.  At the present time one community in particular has no internet access, no cable TV, not that personally I would see that as a bad thing.  Currently they are able to receive two radio frequencies that intermittently fade in and out depending on where you are travelling along the one windy road that goes in and out of their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What is the name of the community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12276             MS McGREGOR:  Hesquiaht First Nation and the Mowachaht First Nation.  This would provide them with a first level service that the majority of Canadians take for granted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277             The other tribal groups associated with the Cosalish are the Malahat First Nation, Tsartlip, Pququachin, and Tseycum.  They are located, of course, at the southern portion of Vancouver Island, the most densely populated area.  So, their plan is to work together to resource their pool there, financial resources, the financial commitment made through this initiative and to meet their needs together as a group.  Of course, that will be determined by the topography.  But because they are smaller communities, they are looking to work together and also because there is a heavily populated area, they feel it would be to their advantage to work together to provide programming that they know would be also accessed by non‑native listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  These Cosalish communities are on Vancouver Island?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279             MS McGREGOR:  Yes, they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12280             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, between Victoria and Campbell River?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281             MS McGREGOR:  The ones that are remote are north of Campbell River and the four Cosalish groups are towards the more heavily populated southern tip of Vancouver Island.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282             What is unique about this is that the aboriginal benefit is a very comprehensive package.  It not only supports the development of aboriginal radio, of course it promotes the development of aboriginal broadcasters, but in very meaningful ways.  The initiatives are all very complementary, starting with the broadcasting scholarship, building into the opportunity to be on air with the native owned and operated radio stations on Vancouver Island, training and internship for native broadcasters at the main station in Vancouver, and also the opportunity to build into the national native network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283             One of the principles that has always impressed me, and I think it is unique about this application when I look at other commitments that support native radio ‑‑ and they are all honourable, and as we said earlier, we see that trend growing since our initial commitment ‑‑ Mr. Bingley bases this on the principle that also is supported in the Broadcasting Act that says:

"Programming that reflects the aboriginal cultures of Canada should be provided within the Canadian broadcasting system as resources become available for that purpose."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12284             What is unique about this application is not only is the applicant proposing to make those resources available, Mr. Bingley has a track record of the belief that who is better able to tell those stories of aboriginal cultures than aboriginal people themselves, or in this case, ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285             One of the things I have experienced as an aboriginal person is that we are a group in North America who is the most studied.  There are many initiatives that are well intentioned, developed to do things for us or to us and many of those have had some good benefits.  I know I am not telling you anything you don't already know, but Mr. Bingley's guiding principle has been very much in the belief of empowerment.  We provide the resources, we provide the training and then we are able to do that ourselves.  It goes along with the analogy of rather than feeding someone fish, teach them how to fish and then they can fish for themselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12286             It is very much about not only taking a place within the Canadian broadcast system; it is about taking a place within Canadian society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287             I hope that answers your question.  If there are any other financial aspects, I will turn that over to Mr. Bingley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12288             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I have a few more questions, Ms McGregor.  I can run through Mr. Bingley, and he can redirect them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289             If support would flow to a community who would set up a station within the contour of an existing commercial radio station, their application would be subject to a licensing process at the Commission which could take several months.  How would this affect your funding structure?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, we have anticipated that.  With the four stations in Ontario, we actually assisted them in writing and filing their application.  That delayed the process.  So, what we have done, as you may see, when we show our financial injections, we are staggering that over a couple year period the start date.  In fact, if it is delayed, it would extend past the seven‑year period.  We would be contacting the Commission and explaining that and requesting an extension because obviously these communities would want the funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12291             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What happens in the case that, despite everyone's best efforts, a particular station does not commence operations?  How will you redirect your funding?  How do you plan to deal with that situation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292             MR. BINGLEY:  Our first step, as Linda mentioned, we are dealing with both the Cosalish and the Nuchatlaht tribal groups.  Our first step was to go talk to the economic development officers for both of those groups.  These offices look after on average about 15 to 17 first nations.  So, in the event that one first nation did not come through or it didn't work out, there are a number of others who would step forward and we would be able to meet that commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12293             MS McGREGOR:  Actually, Commissioner, if I may add to that, since we have been involved in this process and I have been one of the contacts for the aboriginal delegates in this region, I have received additional phone calls from first nation communities who are interested and want to know how they can become involved.  So, they certainly seem to be lining up should one feel they are not ready at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Bingley and Ms. McGregor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295             Mr. Campbell, can you give us an overview of how your research efforts have suggested that this format is needed and will be successful in the Vancouver market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12296             MR. CAMPBELL:  I would be glad to, Commissioner.  I have been waiting to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12297             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298             MR. CAMPBELL:  I want to say before I do that, I have owned and run research companies, market research firms for 27 years.  We have done work throughout the United States, Canada, Europe for stations large and small.  In my memory in the 27 years that I have been doing the type of study that we just did last year for Mr. Bingley, I don't recall seeing a sizable market opportunity for a new format as we found here.  We have looked at thousands of different projects in that time period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299             To measure the demand for the format, we were first of all working with the sample of 520 respondents.  It was quoted for age, gender and area in the Vancouver CMA, just like BBM does.  We didn't quote it for ethnic groups but we recorded ethnicity, and we have that information as a part of our study.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12300             But when we got to the format susceptibility questions, and these are questions we have developed many years ago and have perfected over the years and use in all of our format search studies, and in this study, which was really a format hypothesis study, where we were engaged to either prove or disprove the hypothesis that there was an opportunity in Vancouver for an indie emerging artist format, we didn't look at any other formats.  I urged Mr. Bingley to do that, but he had his sights set on this particular format in this particular market situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301             So, we had to be very precise about the format.  We described the format in the study as a station that would play a lot of new songs from the many emerging and talented Canadian artists mixed in with new songs from established Canadian artists, such as Broken Social Scene, Arcade Fire, Pink Mountain Tops, New Pornographers, all established acts for you folks, I am sure.  Matt Costa, Feist, Modest Mouse, and Tokyo Police Club.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302             After we described that format by the artist that this station would feature, we played quite a long montage of samples of the music by these artists.  Normally we would have five to seven formats in a study, but in this instance, since we had a bit more time, we made longer hooks of a song so that the respondents in this study had a very clear picture of what the format was by the artists that were described and then a good sample of the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12303             After that was completed, we asked the respondents if they would listen often, once in a while, or almost never to this particular format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12304             This format base was 16 to 34 year olds.  There was no point in us looking at 45 plus or 55 plus because we didn't feel that this new music would have much of an application to older listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305             We found that 25 per cent of the 16 to 34 year olds in the Vancouver CMA say they would listen often to this format, often as opposed to once in a while or never.  There was an additional 49 per cent of the respondents who said they would listen once in a while.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306             So, since most of a station's hours tuned come from first preference and second preference listeners, as you know, that is a huge base of a particular demographic who say they would listen often or once in a while to the format as opposed to never, and there were, what, 25 per cent of the folks said I would never listen to it, and only 1 per cent said don't know.  So, there wasn't a lot of misunderstanding with respect to the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307             We then ask the folks who said this format could be one they would listen often to, if it could be their very favourite radio station to listen to for music, their second choice or their third choice.  We found that 28 per cent of the people who said they would listen often to the format said this could be my first choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308             Now we ask a third question to kind of gauge the ease with which we might be able to get those people, and that question is:  Is there a really good station like this available now in Vancouver?  We found that 73 per cent of those people said no, there isn't.  So, if you move back to the often and once in a while information, the P1 and P2 support, potential P1 and P2 support for the format, you have 74 per cent of the 16 to 34 year olds saying they would listen often or once in a while, and you have 73 per cent of them saying there isn't one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309             A lot of times with our clients in the United States we talk about marketing warfare because a lot of times in the United States we are directly attacking another station to take away their listeners.  In this instance that is not the case.  These are listeners who are using their iPods and their MP3 players and going over to satellite radio and all these alternative audio sources because they are not being served.  This market also has a very huge, as you heard on the video, a very large underground independent artist scene, and it is big.  I happen to live in Seattle and people come up here from Seattle all the time to engage in this lifestyle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12310             There isn't an indie emerging artist format in Seattle either.  So it is one of the biggest opportunities ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Why would a marketplace like Seattle not have an indie ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312             MR. CAMPBELL:  I don't think anybody has looked at this format.  I have had over 350 clients ask me to do these studies, and I have never been asked to do this study before.  This is a new genre, and Doug, in his vision, I believe sees the opportunity.  Doug, in his vision, is really concerned about the loss of younger listeners to other forums.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313             Going back to the lake trout analogy, which I think is a great analogy, the loss of the lake trout is really confirmed in the United States by a study that Arbitron just did and released in the late fall of 2007.  It is the persons using radio report which they publish quarterly.  It is based on a quarter of a million diaries from the 94 largest markets in the United States.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12314             In terms of average quarter hour ratings in the United States, the ratings are down with listeners 12 plus by 16 per cent over the last eight years.  But with teens, it is down by 28 per cent, almost 30 per cent over the last eight years, and by 18 to 34 year olds, it is down by 21 per cent.  The folks are going away.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12315             Unless more broadcasters take a look at what the younger listeners want, because there is plenty of choices for adult listeners out there in almost any market, then radio is going to be, as Doug said, effectively extinct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316             I want to point out also that in our study, as opposed to some of the other ‑‑ I have only really looked at one other study that has been presented to you; I haven't looked at the others.  But in that instance that study included people who listened for as little as 15 minutes a day.  The people who got into our study had to listen for seven hours a week or an hour a day.  That is pretty normal time spent listening for almost any radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317             So, the ratings projections that we have set forth in our application are based on fish in the lake.  They are still there.  But I truly believe that as the station launches and as word of mouth starts to engage and as people start telling their friends, there is an indie emerging artist format in Vancouver and it is really hot, some of these folks who are listening to their iPods and other sources are going to come back and listen to commercial radio.  I am not sure they are ever going to leave their iPods or their other sources of audio, but I am confident they will come back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318             I want to point out one other thing that I think is really supportive of the format susceptibility information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12319             We ask a number of statements in the study.  We just made a statement and we asked the folks if they would agree or disagree on a scale of 1 to 9, where 9 means strongly agree and 1 means strongly disagree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             One statement was I listen to music on my iPod/MP3 player because I can't hear the kind of music that I like on Vancouver's radio stations.  One‑third of the 16 to 34 year olds said agree to strongly agree.  Of the people who are the prime prospects for this format that we are talking about, 62 per cent agree to strongly agree.  I think perhaps even more illustrative are the loss of people from commercial radio.  The statement on listening to music more these days using my iPod/MP3 player and other media and less to Vancouver area radio stations, 40 per cent of the 16 to 34 year olds agree to strongly agree, and 68 per cent of the prime prospects for this format agree to strongly agree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             So, there is huge opportunity here, and in crafting our ratings, transferring this information to BBM, which is long and complicated and I won't go through it, and I don't believe the detailed analysis is in the application, just a summary, but if you want to see the detailed information I would be glad to work that up for you today and give it to you later.  We simply took a look at the existing cume for 18 to 34.  We looked at the existing population and cuming patterns among 18 to 34 year olds.  We took a very conservative range of cume rating from 20 to 25 per cent, given the fact that 68 per cent said they would listen often or once in a while.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             We went with 20 or 25 per cent and we worked from there in terms of using very conservative turnover ratios for a well‑programmed format with no direct format competitor to calculate average quarter hour persons, to calculate, then, share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             Based on my experience, this station has an opportunity to be a quick success.  We have not really projected that out because it has been much more conservative because that is the way Doug likes to do his projections.  But when you have that level of demand with the perception that the product isn't available, it happens fast.  If there was a big perception there are several stations doing this and we were going to try to achieve these ratings goal by taking it away from someone else, there would be a lot of television advertising required, a lot of money spent in order to do that, and that is not necessary here.  This is a flanker opportunity in terms of marketing warfare kind of dialogue as opposed to an offensive attack or a guerilla attack.  It is we are going over to an uncontested area to serve a big group of people who are important to Vancouver radio and important to radio in general.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             Ms. Dawe, do you have anything to add in your role as an indie specialist?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             MS DAWE::  In my experience, what Mr. Bingley has decided to do is so exciting and so refreshing and will bring such great opportunity to Vancouver artists, as well as Canadian artists all over this country.  It is cutting edge; it is brand new and that is what is so exciting about it.  It has never been done, which is like existing with a new emerging artist, when I work with a new emerging artist.  They are in the embryonic state of their career.  They have very little, if no, financing.  Mom and dad are helping them pay for the CD.  They have done it in their basement.  No one else is doing this.  They have no gigantic support, no systems, no agents, no bookers, no managers, no record label because what they are doing has not been defined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             I think that this young generation, and the reason we cannot any longer tell them what they want to listen to, we cannot dictate these things to them, they feel that they are excluded.  Actually within their core of their social existence they feel they are excluded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             So, when I go out with these artists and I explained to you about suburbia, and they had accomplished many things on the required list to try to launch within the independent sector of the industry, this emerging artist format is very reflective of what the emerging artist goes through, because we are starting where nobody else has started before.  I believe this format could be successful and create the opportunity for Canadian artists, because their dream is to be heard on the radio; it is their dream.  You can't make another step further in your career until that actually occurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             I think that if we could do this, what we will see is we will see many, many radio stations in the future embracing the independent emerging artist format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Ms. Dawe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             Mr. Campbell, you talked about the fish, I guess, to use your analogy, were leaving, particularly in the 12 to 18 age bracket.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             MR. CAMPBELL:  It was 16 to 18.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sorry, 16 to 18.  But then you also said that possibly they would be coming back.  At what age do they come back?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             MR. CAMPBELL:  I believe, Commissioner, that for the people who are not listening to radio today, the people who have gone away, who are really into this music genre of emerging independent ‑‑ and in this case Canadian artists, because of all the music types we tested, highest testing was for emerging Canadian artist ‑‑ I believe that they won't be able to miss the fact that this radio station is available because we are going to be asking our listeners on the air if we are granted this licence if they like what they hear to please tell their friends; we would really like to have their help.  If they have friends who know folks who like this kind of music, here it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             On our website we are going to be inviting people to become ‑‑ we haven't got a great name for it yet ‑‑ to become members of a listener advisory panel so that we can make our news relevant, find out issues of importance to these folks, regular weekly listener panel sessions where, over the course of a year, we will have 52 groups of 20 people into the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             That database will be so helpful to the station and its spoken world programming, not only in news but also in what the disc jockies talk about in the morning show and the other day parts.  But I think the folks who are gone are going to hear about it through word of mouth and through their pals and they are going to sample it, and if it is programmed properly, which I am confident it will be, they are going to like it and listen to it in their car, where it is a little dangerous to wear the headphones, they are going to listen to it at work, they are going to listen to it at home, they are going to listen to it on the beach, and I think that is what will happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             Mr. Bingley, the salmon often go away here, but they always come back to spawn.  So, there may be some hope for the fish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             That concludes my questions, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             I have a couple of questions, one along the same lines.  Listening to music is a habit.  I have young children as well, and you listen to music when you associate with activities.  A lot of the target audience that you are aiming at have already formed the habit of, when they do their activity, they have their iPods on.  If they are running, they have got their running playlist; if they are reading, they have their reading playlist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             So, not only do you have to break them of the habit they have already formed, you also then have to teach them to form a new habit of them turning on the radio.  I can see where, when you get to the point that they have turned on the radio, they like the music, there is a chance.  But I would like to hear more about what is it that you are going to do to actually break them of that habit and form a new habit?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             MR. BINGLEY:  Sure, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             First, what we provide is value added, and I don't think we can over emphasize the importance of all of the things that radio stations do, all the spoken word content, all those interactions.  So, that is the first thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             The second component, though, is we are going to be involved in Face Book; we are going to be involved with a community on our website.  So, all of these things tap into the habits that this group already has.  So, we are going to take their habits and shift them.  I think that is the short answer.  That is what we are going to do.  We are going to take a lot of existing habits and shift them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             The other reality is studies have shown that the average person has 500 songs on their iPod.  Mr. Carr here spent quite some time in indie clubs ‑‑ I have the receipts ‑‑ and when he showed people the playlists they said, hey, this is what we have on our iPod.  We are going to provide much of what they already have on their iPod, plus we are going to provide new and cool music that they don't know about now, plus all these other good things that go along with the package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, the short answer is the internet will be your key tool to make them think of you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             MR. BINGLEY:  That is one of the tools, but I think the key tool is going to be the word of mouth, just that the other people talk about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             The other thing that we do very successfully, and I believe this is very important, is have listeners on the air.  For example, if someone calls in with a traffic report on our existing stations, we put that person right on air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             All of these things, a well run station can take a market the size of Vancouver and make it seem almost like a small town, and that is how you do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have noticed that your revenue projections ‑‑ I am not talking about the expense side.  I see that your programming expenses and total expenses are also quite high, indicating your willingness to invest, but your revenue is considerably higher than the other applicants who are targeting the under 34 age group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             MR. BINGLEY:  Sorry, these are the applicants targeting the under 34?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Under 34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             MR. BINGLEY:  I believe our actual, relative to the entire group, I think our revenue forecasts are actually quite conservative.  They are about 50 per cent of all the applicants here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             If I remember correctly ‑‑ I am trying to think of the applicant here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am thinking of, say, Pataria, their target is 18 to 24, and their year 7 revenue is $2.7 million.  You are at $5 million, and then the Alberta group is at $2.8 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             If I am wrong, please correct me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             MR. BINGLEY:  That is not my understanding.  Perhaps what we could do, with your indulgence, maybe I could take a look at that and provide a follow‑up response to that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure, that would be good.  If I am wrong, please do correct me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             I have also been in hearings with a station in difficulty who has targeted the younger group, talking about the difficulties of attracting them ‑‑ we have addressed those here ‑‑ and talking about the difficulties of attracting advertising.  Can you address that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             MR. BINGLEY:  Sure, I can, and I will pass that to Mr. Manton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             MR. MANTON:  Thank you, Doug.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             Obviously the 18 to 34 is a very lucrative demo with a lot of money and very active with their lifestyle.  We had the opportunity to come out and speak to a cross‑section of retailers, my colleague, Dave Carr and I, and I won't say astounded, very pleased I guess with the reaction that we got from them that they felt that this was a demographic that they couldn't currently reach and were very much interested in what we were doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             We didn't ask for commitments obviously for a station that wasn't on the air yet, but certainly got the definite opinion that this was something that they thought was very viable and they would be very interested in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then my standard question of how many do you think we should licence and if one were to be you, who else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             MR. BINGLEY:  Commissioner, in terms of the relative robustness of the market, you could certainly issue licences, I believe, for all the available frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             When you take a look at the applicants here, I am not sure if you are including CBC in this as well, but of course there is the issue of Nanaimo.  I believe if they were to recycle their AM frequency, you could certainly satisfy that need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             CBC on 88.1, it is my understanding they are the only broadcaster who can use that because of an agreement with regard to channel 6.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             Then at the other end of the band you have Pattison, also it is a frequency that only they can use.  So that kind of makes sense to me that that would be a good choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I believe legal has a question and then we will come back for your two‑minute pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             MS PINSKY:  I just have a few questions of clarification to follow up from the discussion that you have just had.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             Firstly to clarify the point of the amount of pure news that you would intend to broadcast, we have a figure of four hours and 43 minutes for news, weather and sports.  Do you have a specific number for news only?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             MR. BINGLEY:  Yes, I do.  Monday to Friday, news 135 minutes; Saturday, Sunday, 34 minutes apiece, for weekly totals of 169 minutes of news, which is 2.82 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             Then you did discuss with Commissioner Williams the issue of your level of projections for revenue.  What would be the impact on your business plan if your projections were not met?  How would you respond?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             MR. BINGLEY:  We have a considerable reserve fund in place.  Ms Buller can take you through that if you wish, but we do have a sizable fund in place, so it would have no impact on our commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             MS PINSKY:  Thank you.  The issue is more what would the impact be on your programming, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             Then I just want to follow up on a few issues relating to CCD.  With regard to the position of the coordinator for the indie festival, when I look at your chart on page 4 of the appendix 8‑a, I don't know if you necessarily have to look at it, but you have broken down for the indie festival the commitments for each year.  You have indicated that for the first two years you would allocate $5,000 for the coordinator.  I will let you get to that page first if you like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             MR. BINGLEY:  Okay, just bear with me.  What page is that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             MS PINSKY:  It is page 4 of the appendix 8‑a entitled "Description of CCD Commitments."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             MR. BINGLEY:  Oh, yes, I am sorry, and I apologize, Commissioner.  I thought you were referring to the indie showcase of music west when that question was occurring before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             Yes, we are budgeting fees towards that, $5,000, and that is necessary because an event of this size, we do need someone to coordinate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             MS PINSKY:  Would that coordinator be a staff person for the station or that would be a third party?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             MR. BINGLEY:  That would be a contract third party, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             MS PINSKY:  Would you be able to break out the amount of that money for the following years?  You have indicated $5,000 for the first two, but we don't have how much you expect ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             MR. BINGLEY:  Yes, it would be $5,000 and we would keep it at $5,000 in subsequent years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             MS PINSKY:  This would be a separate person not otherwise employed by the station whose specific duty would be to coordinate the indie festival; is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             MR. BINGLEY:  Absolutely.  I do apologize, Commissioner Williams, to answer your question earlier directly, if you did rule that this was not an eligible CCD benefit, we would re‑direct that funding directly into the talent appearing at this festival.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             MS PINSKY:  Okay, that answered my last question.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Here is your opportunity to do a last minute pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             MR. BINGLEY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             Commissioners, at the risk of torturing you with one final fish analogy, it is time to restock the pond.  If we do not innovate, radio will be in serious trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             Our proposal will re‑invigorate Vancouver radio.  It will provide a new format to disenfranchised listeners, Canadian citizens to whom radio no longer has relevance.  It will provide a new venue for emerging artists, a venue which will have impact that extends well beyond Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             Our CCD programs will aid emerging artists, Vancouver's youth and native broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             At the most recent radio review there was one common thread.  Canadian musicians said that the best thing the CRTC could do for them was to ensure more airplay for emerging artists.  The radio policy now states that wherever possible, decisions by the Commission will ensure that support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             So, Commissioners, we believe that our application does just that.  It addresses both of those challenges.  I guess the best thing I can say is if not here, where; and if not now, when?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             Thank you very much for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your time and your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399             We will now take a lunch break and Ms Roy will tell us how much time she is going to allow us to have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12400             THE SECRETARY:  We will come back at 2:15.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1310 / Suspension à 1310

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1415 / Reprise à 1415

LISTNUM 1 \l 12401             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 9, which is an application by In House Communications for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402             Please introduce yourself and your colleague, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12403             MR. PAT LOUGH:  Madam Chair, Commissioners, my name is Pat Lough, President of In House Communications.  With me today is my wife and business partner, Dulaine Lough.  It is with regret that we are informing you that our third presenter today, Carolyn Arends, is not able to be with us due to the flow of today's hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404             It is with great enthusiasm and excitement that we appear before you again today to present our application for refine fm, a new Christian music station to serve Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.  If licensed, refine fm will complement the existing radio market with an appealing mix of contemporary Christian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12405             This application was submitted in response to the over 7,000 supporters of Christian radio who wrote a letter of intervention expressing their concern about losing a clear reception of American‑based Praise 106, as noted in the CRTC Decision 2006‑258.  In addition to those 7,000 letters that you have on your file, our application received over 350 letters from individuals and businesses who wanted to publicly express their support for our application.  Currently 31 per cent of Vancouver's population falls into our target audience, aged 18 to 35, which is skewed slightly more female than male.  As Vancouver is a large and densely populated region, our proposed coverage area will encompass nearly 2.5 million people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12406             The absence of a Canadian choice for Christian music has many would be listeners tuning out of market to the internet, satellite radio and to American stations like Praise 106 in search of quality Christian music.  If they continue to do so, we will lose an irreplaceable opportunity to promote Canadian music and will lose the opportunity to showcase local talent and emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12407             Vancouver is the largest Canadian market without a Christian radio station, and yet it is a market that has demonstrated very strong support for the American‑based Praise 106.  We believe that we can repatriate Praise 106 listeners back to Vancouver's radio market by offering a fresh new sound with a clean signal and great Canadian music, local news, sports, traffic and weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408             In House Communications desires to bring quality Christian programming to communities in western Canada.  Last October, we appeared before the Commission requesting a similar licence for Kelowna.  In January we purchased a struggling, albeit talented, low‑powered Christian station.  This transaction is currently waited for CRTC approval.  The licensing of this application for Vancouver will form a synergy with our newly acquired station and potentially with a new station in Kelowna.  This synergy will benefit all three stations in terms of management, administration and national sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409             We trust that you will see throughout our application and again in our presentation today that refine fm is all about diversity; diversity in ownership, programming, advertisers and CCD initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12410             MS DULAINE LOUGH:  The licensing of this application as a specialty station ensures that the radio market is reflective of the incredible diversity of our Canadian cu