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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.























Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)













HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Rooms B, C & D                    Salons B, C et D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)


December 13, 2007                 Le 13 décembre 2007









In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription


Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)







Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère







Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Kelly-Anne Smith                  Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique





HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Rooms B C D                       Salons B C D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)


December 13, 2007                 Le 13 décembre 2007


- iv -





                                                 PAGE / PARA







Andy McNabb (OBCI)                                895 / 5499


Anderson Parish Media Inc.                        995 / 6211









Andy McNabb (OBCI)                               1040 / 6479









CBC                                              1042 / 6493


Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs           1050 / 6535


Michael Graham                                   1059 / 6569


Jack de Keyzer                                   1066 / 6613


Bill McKay                                       1071 / 6643


Active Green + Ross                              1073 / 6655




- v -





                                                 PAGE / PARA







Anderson Parish Media Inc.                       1085 / 6753


Andy McNabb (OBCI)                               1089 / 6770


Frank Torres (OBCI)                              1094 / 6798


Acadia Broadcasting Limited                      1097 / 6816


Evanov Communications Inc.                       1099 / 6837


K-Rock 1057 Inc.                                 1103 / 6869


Larche Communications Inc.                       1109 / 6898


Newcap Inc.                                      1111 / 6921


591989 B.C. Ltd.                                 1113 / 6933















                   London, Ontario / London (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, December 13, 2007

    at 0906 / L'audience débute le jeudi

    13 décembre 2007 à 0906

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 54915491             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15492             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15493             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 15 which is an application by Andy McNabb, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15494             The new station would operate on frequency 96.7 MHz (channel 244B1) with a maximum effective radiated power of 4,370 watts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15495             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Andy McNabb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15496             Please introduce your ‑‑ I'm sorry.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15497             THE SECRETARY:  You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15498             I apologize


LISTNUM 1 \l 15499             MR. McNABB:  Hello.  I'm Andy McNabb, the applicant, and on my left is Andy McNabb, my vice‑president of programming.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15500             MR. McNABB:  To my right is Andy McNabb, my vice‑president of sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15501             And had there been any doubt about cloning it's probably disappeared by now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15502             But anyway, thank you, CRTC Commissioners and staff.  It's been eight years since I have had the opportunity to appear on the firing line with a bunch of competitors.  We are all out for each other's blood it seems right now, but what we hope to do, my goodness, with 10 frequencies identified and various combinations and permutations, I hope a few of us can walk away happy and being able to serve the citizens of the City of Kawartha Lakes and Peterborough for the betterment of the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15503             I am focused on the City of Kawartha Lakes.  That's the place of my birth.  And this city is the result of a year 2000 amalgamation of 33 small towns and villages up in cottage country, about an hour and a half northeast of Toronto, with Lindsay being the population; commercial and political hub of that market, and with 75,000 people being situated in this city that's over 3,000 square kilometres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15504             So just to give you an idea here, just take a look off the City of Kawartha Lakes website.  That's 100 kilometres north to south, 45 kilometres east to west.  That's a lot of territory.  Now, compare that to the City of Peterborough which has approximately 75,000 people, and the City of Peterborough is nicely condensed in 58 square kilometres.  So you can understand why the biggest and best signal needs to go over here because that's all that's left.  There is nothing left available that could potentially cover the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15505             So you take a look at Peterborough, seven frequencies licensed in a city of 75,000, a CMA of 116,000.  The City of Kawartha Lakes has one frequency licensed with a census agglomeration of 75,000, and that's all according to StatsCan 2006 Census figures.  So where is the greatest need?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15506             We take 96.7 away from the City of Kawartha Lakes, there is no chance to unite a very geographically‑dispersed community with a whole bunch of different interests because they are so geographically dispersed.  This is the one and only chance to make this happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15507             So what we have to do is take a look at Peterborough.  They have got the Peterborough licensees, the four of the seven that are rated, being the two CHUM CTVgm stations and the two Corus stations; a 56.5 percent share of tuning to rated local stations, adults 18 plus, and that's with the BBM ratings hot off the presses last week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15508             In the City of Kawartha, poor old BOB FM, almost half of the hours tuned I had when I was on an AM in that market, and they had just got a 13 percent share of tuning, adults 18 plus.  It's pretty sad and, yet, they have got this mother of an FM signal.  So what's going on?  BOB is not up to the job.  Why is that?  Well, we will identify that a little later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15509             Peterborough has two Christian licensees, the Christian hard rock station Kings Kids and CJLF‑2 which is a hot AC/rock station repeater of the Barrie station.  Well, poor old City of Kawartha Lakes has none.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15510             Right smack dab in the middle ‑‑ now if you can see this, this was given to me by Industry Canada.  These are the market contours of the good folks in Barrie, their 3 millivolt perimeter contour for the Christian station there.  There is their 3 millivolt repeater for Peterborough, and it just touches the southeast corner of the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15511             There is no market quality signal available for people who want spiritual comfort thanks to the Religious Broadcasting Policy of 1993.  So what do we do to resolve it?  Well, we want to establish a Christian talk‑dominated radio station to make that happen, and give people who are well deserving their own Christian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15512             So what we want to do here, we take a look at the City of Kawartha Lakes being hugely underserved by local radio in comparison to Peterborough.  We know it's the last opportunity to serve the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes with the one signal that's capable of covering the majority of the population with a market rate 3 millivolt perimeter contour with a format, with the only format out of all formats before you this week that is not competitive for ratings, that is not competitive for revenue with the other broadcasters, and especially not competitive for revenue nor ratings with the underperforming CTVglobemedia operation in that market, the station that I used to own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15513             So let's take a look at the application's overview.  This is going to be the only local station before you out of all applicants that's going to be delivering local news every hour every day around the clock; twice daily death notices.  Now, don't laugh.  This is big news in a marketplace where you don't have a local daily paper or is widely spread out and people don't find out that people died until the paper is published and, yet, the funeral was two days ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15514             We are going to have daily local call‑in talk shows to bring the City of Kawartha Lakes their first ever voice to the community, focusing on issues of public concern and faith and family topics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15515             Plus, we are going to bring back what was dropped by the CHUM CTVglobemedia people and dropped by Centario Communications, and that's the uplifting Bible‑based talk and teaching programs that actually thrived but they were kicked to the curb because it didn't meet with the format consistency requirements of the previous owners and the current owners' format preferences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15516             So we are going to talk about four building blocks to make a radio station work really well, and I call them the four Cs of communication.  Number one is convenience, number two is content, number three is community and number four is connectivity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15517             Now, convenience; folks, there are going to be up to eight local news stories every hour every day.  And I walk the talk on this.  This is something that I have done with CKLY when I had it as an AM before it was flipped by subsequent ownership groups to FM.  For the first time in history in the City of Kawartha Lakes you are going to be able to get local news around the clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15518             In terms of content, there is going to be very compelling talk programming that brings the spiritual comfort as mandated by the Religious Broadcasting Policy and lifts people up when they are knocked down by the day‑to‑day circumstances we all face in life.  We are going to be talking about issues that matter, how to get along with your spouse, how to raise your kids, how to overcome adversity; all based on solid biblical precepts from people who walk the talk in meeting those challenges.  So it's all about home, heart, health, pocketbook, but based on the Bible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15519             We are going to be talking about a community as our third cornerstone here.  We have got what we call our church of the week and charity of the week initiatives.  Volunteers are the backbone in any small community.  They can't get media exposure with limited funds and we are giving them free and very, very unique fundraising and market tools to help raise funds and draw more volunteers to their causes and help local churches make an impact as they reach out to their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15520             We are even giving them an opportunity to get free advertising over and above the traditional, you know, community calendar and community bulletin board and, you know, come on in for an interview and we will do a local news story on you type of angle, where if they become volunteer news correspondents they are going to get extra free advertising in return.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15521             So we are leveraging something on a real cause‑related affinity‑minded angle here, where people say, "Hey, I want to get more" ‑‑ "I want to get more free advertising for the Red Cross.  I'm going to do a local news story a week for the new radio station at 96.7 and so on, and so on, because you have got well over 100 non‑profit groups in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  And that's not even counting the 63, 64, 65 churches in that city.  So by gosh, if you add 63 plus about 120, you have got about 183 organizations that can offer us volunteer correspondence.  You bet your boots that we are going to have it covered left, right and centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15522             The fourth cornerstone:  Connectivity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15523             For the first time ever, local citizens are going to have a voice, and with our three hours a day of local call‑in talk shows, people, for the first time ever, can speak to those issues that matter most.  Nobody in Peterborough, nobody in the City of Kawartha Lakes, has this kind of initiative put in place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15524             We are doing this because a religious community is just that, a community, and the whole religious community functions best locally ‑‑ local news every hour of every day, local events, local talk shows that speak to the issues of the day, based on Biblical perspectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15525             This is a great opportunity to not focus on doctrinal divisions, but move forward on the common ground that people of different faith groups hold in common.  No compromise, but we identify what is in common, and we can invite people of all persuasions to hear and to be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15526             I would like to tell you a bit about my history and my desire to return to the City of Kawartha Lakes, and more specifically, that hub, Lindsay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15527             I was raised from diapers in radio in Lindsay.  My dad owned CKLY from 1961 right through to 1986.  It was a tremendous environment.  My dad really understood what local radio was all about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15528             That station survived and thrived, when surrounded by the stations now owned by Corus in Peterborough, with their big mother of an FM signal that beams into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and is still quite actively there; with CHUM's big mother of an FM signal that beams into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and is still quite actively there; with the stations that used to be owned by Corus down in the south, in Oshawa, and by a previous owner, and beamed into the City of Kawartha Lakes, and were sold quite actively there; as well as the big 100,000 watt mother of a signal, CHAY‑FM in Barrie, which completely covers the City of Kawartha Lakes, which was always actively sold in that marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15529             But the station survived and thrived as an AM station because of content, because of a significant commitment to localization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15530             So when I had gone to cut my teeth and sell advertising in Kitchener, after business school, my dad was retiring and he said:  Tell you what.  I will let you match my best offer, and you can come home and buy the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15531             That was mighty kind of him, because he had to get the money out of it so he could enjoy retirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15532             So I came back up, and the bank backed me, and for a million bucks I got myself a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15533             The station, at that time, was only doing $655,000 in revenue, when I bought it, so you can imagine that we had a real debt‑to‑revenue ratio.  I knew that I had to hustle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15534             What happened?  We put together some very solid marketing principles.  We even enhanced local news coverage, if it could be done more than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15535             What happened in the first year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15536             This is net of debt service; not before debt service, net of debt service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15537             We turned more profit in the first year of my ownership than the previous 10 combined.  Why?  It was based on knowledge of the market and a commitment to serve the market.  Boy oh boy, could we ever market the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15538             Sales shot up 81 percent ‑‑ retail sales shot up 81 percent, and took the station from 655 to over a million bucks inside of three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15539             That is all documented in Document No. 3, entitled "Million Dollar Success Stories".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15540             You will see a letter from the good national accounting firm of BDO Dunwoody documenting that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15541             The station went on to become one of the highest rated radio stations on AM, period, in the whole country ‑‑ AM or FM ‑‑ with a 24 percent share of hours tuned in the fall of 1988.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15542             We had a lot of fun.  Within two years we took that station and we really rocked the market, despite being surrounded by the FMs, despite being in the footprint of all the monster Toronto signals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15543             We competed by being local, and local news, local news, local news.  In fact, our whole marketing campaign was built around local news and information ‑‑ get this ‑‑ up to 50 times a day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15544             How many radio stations do you hear that on to this day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15545             I don't want you to think I am full of myself, but those are validated facts.  I look at my competitors behind me, and I hold them in great admiration, because most of them have a very significant seven‑figure net worth.  I guess I am the only exception to that rule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15546             You could call them rags‑to‑riches stories.  Folks, guess what?  I'm a riches‑to‑rags story.  I have to tell you what happened.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15547             I figured when we shot to a 24 percent share of hours tuned, one of the few small market stations doing over a million bucks in revenue, when our pre‑debt normalized operating margins were almost 200 grand ‑‑ mind you, remember, I had a heck of a debt service going for me, so there wasn't much cash left over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15548             I basically developed a Napoleonic complex.  I thought:  If I can do it here, I can do it anywhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15549             So I tried to become the Donald Trump of cottage country real estate, and I soon found out that I wasn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15550             I started investing in condominium project after condominium project, and they all went bankrupt.  Not too bright.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15551             What this tells you is, you can ask me a wee bit about radio, but don't ask me anything about real estate, because I will steer you straight to the poorhouse.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15552             McNABB:  But, no, that wasn't enough punishment.  I had to go before the CRTC in 1990 for an FM licence in Kitchener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15553             Get this.  Foolhardy as I was, I spent over six figures on that application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15554             Guess what?  Nobody got a licence in Kitchener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15555             And you know how many people got licensed just a few years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15556             I was not operating with a sound mind.  That being the case, folks, if that wasn't enough, then came the recession.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15557             Remember the recession of the early nineties?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15558             In cottage country, money retracts first before it retracts elsewhere.  Why?  It's the discretionary dollar.  People sell off their recreational properties and hunker down to their big homes in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15559             What happened?  We got hit in the recession just like everybody else did, and we took a six‑figure hit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15560             Guess what?  That was a bit of a wake‑up call for me, and we worked, and even while the recession was on, we bounced back as quickly as we fell back, and we were on a pace.  We were on an annualized six‑figure increase in sales ‑‑ this is small market radio, mind you ‑‑ and a six‑figure increase in the bottom line.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15561             What happened then?  As if we haven't had enough punishment already, guess what happened?  Hey, it's time to renew the agreement.  Let's do an asset valuation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15562             Cottage country property values crashed more than they did elsewhere because of the discretionary effect.  It's the first thing to retract in a recession and the last thing to come back in a recovery.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15563             They did the valuation and they said:  Andy, the value of your properties has fallen by multiple six figures.  Guess what?  We have a debt equity covenant in our banking arrangement.  Yeah, you might make your payments every month, but we loan on two things:  payments and collateral.  You don't have collateral.  You have blown the debt‑equity ratio sky high.  We are calling your loan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15564             Where do you think you can get money in the midst of a recession?  You can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15565             Guess what they did, folks.  They took the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15566             They put one of my junior sales people in charge of revenue.  We toppled from a million dollars in revenue to under 600,000 bucks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15567             I lost the family legacy because I took my eyes off the golden goose.  I led it into financial ruin because I didn't keep my eyes on the ball.  I thought I would become Mr. Real Estate entrepreneur, and I didn't make sure that I had proper people running the show while I went off to play in real estate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15568             Lesson learned.  Very sobering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15569             I just want to put everything in balance.  There were great accomplishments, but there was a great failure.  Very sobering, but I ain't going to make the mistake again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15570             That being the case, what do we do now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15571             I want to come back.  These are the people I grew up with.  These are the people I worked with.  These are the people I voted for.  These are the people I played pick‑up hockey with.  I would travel three hours from my home in St. Catharines, all the way back to my true home in Lindsay, the City of Kawartha Lakes, to socialize.  You can take the boy out of Lindsay, but you can't take Lindsay out of the boy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15572             Let's talk about a need for a station.  The market is not serviced well by local news, and there is a hole big enough to drive a truck through, which we will illustrate in a minute, and we are bringing a convoy full of 18‑wheelers, chocked full of local news for that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15573             No station is providing the largest cultural group in the City of Kawartha Lakes, those people that identify themselves with the various Christian faith groups, with a service that fulfils the objectives of the religious broadcasting policy in providing spiritual comfort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15574             That largest cultural group, folks, is the 79.8 percent of residents that identified with various Christian faith groups in the 2001 census.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15575             Let's take a look at the needs of the market vis‑à‑vis the Broadcasting Act and the religious broadcasting policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15576             The religious broadcasting policy is for all Canadians; not just people in Calgary and Edmonton and Timmins and London and Woodstock and Kitchener and Peterborough and Barrie.  Guess what?  It's for the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15577             What we have here is the situation where the City of Kawartha Lakes ‑‑ we should not be deprived of our own station to reflect our own values, given that the secular media does a fine job of not doing so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15578             In regard to the Broadcasting Act, the public should have a reasonable opportunity to be exposed to the expression of differing views on matters of public concern.  And the station is going to be the only station providing that public expression in the City of Kawartha Lakes, three hours a day, seven days a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15579             Licensing yet another music service spinning the tunes falls way far short of that objective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15580             Let's take a look at the market.  What has happened there?  What are the effects on my former station, flipped to an FM by the company that Ray McMurray used to run, which was then taken over by CTVglobemedia back in 2000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15581             What are the effects on Bob FM and my two music competitors in the City of Kawartha Lakes, and why does this not affect me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15582             The City of Kawartha Lakes, in the past six months, has been dealt a series of five economic body blows in a row.  They have lost a ton of manufacturing capacity, resulting in, number one, a reduction in the number of shifts at GM.  That is the largest corporate employer in the City of Kawartha Lakes, employing 1,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15583             Fleetwood, the recreational trailer manufacturer, shut down this spring, ceasing 400 jobs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15584             Pearlman, the plastics company, is now ceasing its Canadian operation, leaving an announced shutdown of 80 to 100 positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15585             The Turner & Seymour custom chain manufacturer cut from two shifts to one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15586             THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me.  I'm sorry, Mr. McNabb, but I would just like to let you know that you have two minutes left for your presentation, if you would like to conclude.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15587             MR. McNABB:  Wow!  Thank you.  Okay, I appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15588             Northern Plastic Lumber ‑‑ cutbacks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15589             As a result, the rules of the game have changed.  If you are selling spots, that's a tough thing to do, and Bob FM is already underperforming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15590             But guess what?  I don't sell very many spots.  I have 50 percent of my revenue on the books already from Christian‑paid talk programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15591             I get my other revenue, 67 grand a year, out of funeral announcements, based on the proven history of how many announcements a day, times the rate, equals 67 grand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15592             I am only selling 30 grand a year in spots, and that is typically to churches, and maybe the odd Christian business that wants to talk to the flock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15593             Plus, another $12,000 of Christian concerts and conferences that I had organized and that is our event revenue.  So I am not competing for revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15594             If the market goes to H‑E double toothpicks in a hand basket I am not affected because the people who support those paid Christian talk programs are typically empty‑nesters and they are not affected as much.  They have a greater range of discretionary income that is not affected in a recessionary economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15595             So there you go.  The City of Kawartha Lakes has one of the highest number of churches per capita.  It is 32 percent higher than the Canadian average.  It is 50 percent higher than that of Barrie ‑‑ pardon me, Peterborough, where you have two stations licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15596             So if you have got a .65 churches per capita ratio in Peterborough and we have got .92 in the City of Kawartha Lakes, how much more deserving are we of a signal that can cover the majority of the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15597             Anyway, The Post is hurting.  They have cut back a 100‑year‑old daily, cut back to twice a week.  They can't even sell ‑‑ prior to Christmas they can't even sell the corner ads in the newspaper.  Look at that.  That is the lowest entry fee into the local market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15598             Folks, it is not as rosy as it seems but we are the only ones who don't hurt anybody and as a result this is why we really feel strongly ‑‑ and I say we because there is going to be a we, there is going to be staff on board.  That is why we feel we should get the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15599             If you take a look at the whole deal, the letter from Barry Devolin that Mr. Torres read yesterday, I actually told him to write that letter and send it to all applicants, the reason being they didn't want to send it to just one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15600             I said:  All right, tell why local news is important because we are doing the most, more than our two competitors are, way more if you check the numbers.  So talk about local news, how important it is.  We automatically stand out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15601             So, Mr. Torres, it was because of me you got the letter.  Congratulations!

LISTNUM 1 \l 15602             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McNabb, I apologize, can you please wrap up?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15603             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15604             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just for procedural fairness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15605             MR. McNABB:  Yes, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15606             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We give applicants 20 minutes.  Please wrap up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15607             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15608             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15609             MR. McNABB:  I am just going to give you one quote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15610             Max Radiff is the former Mayor of Lindsay before it became the City of Kawartha Lakes and he sent me an e‑mail a couple of days ago:

"In the past 15 years ‑‑ and that is since I left Lindsay ‑‑ there has been a steady erosion in the supply of effective news coverage in the County of Victoria and its successor the City of Kawartha Lakes.  The inability of this city to develop a cohesive nature is due partially to the fact that residents often have little idea as to what is happening in their municipality and little opportunity to feel that they are now much part of a bigger picture." (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15611             So folks, I am just going to end it on there.  I have got quotes from other mayors.  I have got quotes from everybody else and we might address those in your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15612             So have at it.  I am ready to take the shots.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15613             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb.  You will have ample opportunity in answering our questions to give us whatever information you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15614             I have to say that I want to thank you for increasing the energy level in this room this morning.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 15615             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you have given our translators a run for their money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15616             MR. McNABB:  And that was despite two Valiums too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15617             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15618             I am going to ask Commissioner del Val to lead the questioning.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15619             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb.  I honestly don't know how I am going to keep up with you but let's just go with the programming first, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15620             So you are proposing a specialty Christian talk format and I can see from your numbers that there is a very, very high emphasis on spoken‑word programming, and because it is also a Christian station ‑‑ and I can see that you are familiar with the religious broadcasting policy from your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15621             Now balance is very important and that policy requires us as a Commission to ask you to explain exactly how you are going to achieve the balance and to be specific about the balance that you will provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15622             I know that you have mentioned 21 hours of balanced programming and that you are prepared to commit to that as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15623             So just that one question:  Are you prepared to commit to 21 hours of balanced programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15624             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15625             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15626             Second question:  Now then can you give me a better idea of what exactly that balanced programming will be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15627             I know you have mentioned:

"In general, balance would be addressed in the overall open‑line programming offered by this applicant over a reasonable period of time." (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15628             Is it only open‑line or could you just describe all of the balanced programming you have planned?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15629             MR. McNABB:  Definitely.  Balance is one of the most effective programming and marketing tools this radio station has.  I will tell you why.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15630             You have got ‑‑ in the City of Kawartha Lakes you have got ‑‑ talk about a religiously homogeneous marketplace.  Listen to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15631             0.7 percent of other religious groups, other than people who would say they belong to the Christian faith, 0.7.  You don't get much more homogeneous than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15632             Then you take a look at people who say they have no religion, 19.5 percent.  That leaves 79.8 percent of people who say, hey, we belong to a Christian faith group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15633             So rather than focus on doctrinal division, we want to focus on the common ground that Christians would believe on and that is two fundamental principles.  They believe Jesus is Lord and you can't get to heaven without him.  So that is what they all agree.  So let's just focus on that and let's build on commonality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15634             But what about ‑‑ let's see now, what about the 150 Muslims in the City of Kawartha Lakes or the 55 Jews?  Well, tell you what, what we are doing here is we are going to have a heap of fun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15635             We are in an increasingly multicultural country and even though the City of Kawartha Lakes is very much unlike the rest of Canada, it is going to be coming to towns sooner or later.  So if we are going to be shopping at the same stores together, having our kids in school together, having our kids play ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15636             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Mr. McNabb ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15637             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15638             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  ‑‑ I know why balance is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15639             MR. McNABB:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15640             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  I just need to know what ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15641             MR. McNABB:  What we are doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15642             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  ‑‑ are the programs, please.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15643             MR. McNABB:  What programs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15644             Three hours a day of local call‑in talk shows, an hour and a half in the afternoon, with an hour and a half at night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15645             Now what we do is we invite people with a ‑‑ we have a volunteer talk show host, a different pastor each day hosting.  We have the former co‑host of "100 Huntley Street" already confirmed and that is in the interventions that were filed in November, Diane Roblin‑Lee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15646             These are volunteer hosts because they get free promotion for their business or their church group, et cetera.  But what we are doing, we are inviting different people from different faiths.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15647             So for example, we have a Sikh, Ken Bakshi.  Now, the Sikhs, Stats Canada says there's zero people in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  Well, I know the Bakshis personally and their family of six has been around there for 30 years.  So what we do, we seek out these people and we have them involved.  We have Sylvia Burke who will come on air and speak to issues from the Jewish perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15648             We can talk ‑‑ for example, let's take this week.  What was the biggest ‑‑ one of the biggest news stories this week and how do you localize it?  Well, it was about the tragic strangling of that Muslim girl by her father.  So what is the talk of the show today:  How far should you push your faith on your kids?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15649             So we have a roundtable by three‑way calling coming into the studio where we can offer the Jewish perspective from Sylvia, the Sikh perspective from Ken.  We have the Muslim perspective from the President of the Islamic Federation.  So that is how we address it with issues of balance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15650             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  So basically the 21 hours would be three hours per day times seven, seven days a week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15651             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15652             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  I gather from your response that you have contacts in the community with the members of different faiths?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15653             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15654             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Right.  And then when you were talking about having three lines open, are you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15655             MR. McNABB:  Oh! More than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15656             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  When you have the call‑in shows, will you have sort of a panel of people representing the different faiths and then there will be the public calling in or are you relying completely on those who call in to sort of air what their views are?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15657             MR. McNABB:  You cannot rely on people to call in no matter what kind of a talk show you have.  You have got to go out and you have got to establish that these people are going to be participating on those calls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15658             Whether it is a Christian station doing talk shows or a secular station doing talk shows, you have got to hunt them down, tie them up, glue them to the phone and let them participate, and that way you are assured of having quality participation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15659             This is why I have called Ken.  This is why I have called Sylvia.  This is why I have got their agreement to participate.  Even Frank Dimant, who is the Vice‑President of B'Nai Brith in Toronto ‑‑ we can have local Sylvia Burke representing the Jewish people but Frank can speak to the international angles regarding Israel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15660             So as a result we bring everybody in because they are willing to commit.  Why?  It gives them a great platform to be understood because if we can better understand we are going to get along better and that isn't just a warm and fuzzy thing, it is a practical step in an increasingly multicultural society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15661             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15662             Are you going to be bringing in these individuals, do you think, primarily from Kawartha Lakes, the city itself, first and then ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15663             MR. McNABB:  Always prioritize local because the more local you are, the more relevant you are to the people.  But we can add different perspective by bringing their national counterparts.  Like Sylvia local, Frank national, et cetera, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15664             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15665             Then what corrective measures will you take if balance were not met?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15666             MR. McNABB:  If balance were not met, quite simply ‑‑ if you could give me an example because we are taking an extremely proactive approach to this in terms of getting people to commit and offering them something beneficial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15667             Quite simply, we are going to be promoting the visit of the Israel Consul General to speak in Lindsay, the hub of the City of Kawartha Lakes.  Why?  Because Frank does a lot of work with the Israel Consul General.  So that is a good thing for him to further his agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15668             So there is always a tradeoff.  We are doing something for them.  We are scratching their back big time for them to participate.  So by being this proactive, by providing a reward for their participation, if you will, we can't see how we would ever violate the principle of balance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15669             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15670             One of the sort of guidelines that the religious broadcasting policy talks about, they talk about mechanisms that you should put in place to ensure balance and they talk about a regulatory review committee that you can establish in order to receive complaints because the matters that you deal with will be sensitive and there will be a lot of different points of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15671             So perhaps you could just play it out for me.  Say you have a program and then someone is not happy because they are Buddhist and believe that their view wasn't erred and should have been represented and therefore there was no balance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15672             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15673             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Can you play it out from there?  What would you?  How would the complaint be received, how would it be dealt with, and if you find that in fact there was a mistake how would you correct it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15674             MR. McNABB:  Quite easily.  The people who are our guest panellists are automatically part of that review committee, because what we will be doing is promoting on the fact that people can go to our website if they have a complaint or a problem or an issue they want addressed, if they type that in, that automatically goes to an e‑mail to each one of our panellists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15675             When we talk about their next participation coming up we will say "Hey, Andy, what about that Buddhist fellow who tuned into the station?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15676             Now remember, the City of Kawartha Lakes you are pretty much preaching to the choir because of the fact it is extremely dominant in terms of its representation of the Christian faith.  The vast majority of your listeners are going to be people who identify themselves as Christians, but we see this as an opportunity to educate Christians on other faith groups from a very involved and compelling point of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15677             But nonetheless, somebody, because of the promotion that we are doing ‑‑ because we want to expand, we want the Sikhs, we want the Muslims, we want the Hindus, we want the Buddhists, all 30 of them, tuning into the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15678             So our panellists receive the comment.  I am copied on the comment as well.  Why?  The buck stops here.  I'm the one ultimately responsible, aren't I?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15679             So what do is, our program director talks about it with me, we say "Listen, we got this comment.  What are we going to do to address it this week in this show?"  So that within a matter of business days it is being addressed on air.  "Frank Jones Buddhist from Dunsford" ‑‑ which is just 10 miles outside of Lindsay ‑‑ "they had a complaint, we are talking about it on‑air."  Why?  if we can show ourselves going to extreme lengths to address a balance consideration, we are going to be thought of pretty highly by every one of the people who comprises 0.7 per cent of other faith groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15680             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, what would you say if I said that you probably need an objective pair of eyes, a third party who wasn't involved in producing the program or who were the hosts of the program and you really need someone who can look from outside and evaluate, because I think those who conduct the program could always have an interest in that they have done it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15681             MR. McNABB:  Sure.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15682             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Would you have any plans of sort of having a regulatory review committee that could be a bit objective?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15683             MR. McNABB:  I would be happy to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15684             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15685             MR. McNABB:  The original plan was literally for the panellists to act on that because ‑‑ our panellists being the Sikh, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Jew, et cetera, et cetera, can contribute a diversity of perspective toward handling that situation, but every single problem will be addressed on‑air, for the very simple fact that it shows that this radio station is going to the nth degree, to a point yet a third party ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15686             Hey, I'm willing to do it, I just hadn't thought of it.  I thought just by virtue of having a panel that is representative of all the 0.7 other religions in the City of Kawartha Lakes that might do the trick, but I am very open because, as you know, I'm pretty keen on this whole balancing from a marketing and programming expansion point of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15687             I would love to hear your thoughts, Ms del Val on who that third ‑‑ the type of person that third party might be.  Yes, they are not involved, but where would you grab that person?  What would you look for in terms of their background?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15688             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Someone who does not have an interest in your ‑‑ not the interest in, say, a financial interest in your station.  Or if you are talking about ‑‑ like what would you do to tell the audience who were listening that, "Look, if you don't agree or if you have a complaint" where would you go?  Your complaint from there, a corrective measure.  Would it be that you can get the same panel together or the next week you are going to constitute a different panel with other representation or, say, including some representation of the Buddhism faith and say, "Okay, last week we heard from faiths 1, 2, 3 on this issue and we have had a complaint and to be more balanced week two we will have the same issue discussed by faiths 4, 5, 6?  Would you do something like that?  Would that be a corrective ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15689             MR. McNABB:  Well, that's actually part of the plan.  We do have revolving panellists for that very reason, because we keep perspectives fresh and it isn't always skewing to the perspectives of a few, it is balanced by the perspectives of what:  Many.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15690             So yes, again, they can go to the website, they can register any complaints, but every single complaint will be dealt with on‑air and people all the time will be encouraged to respond if they have a different point of view with a question.  That only makes a station stronger and it gets more people tuning in because they want to find out "Well, how are they going to address it?  I'm going to be tuning in."  What do we do?  We just expand our audience, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15691             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I'm sorry, just give me one minute.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15692             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  So I take it that you are very prepared to accept as a condition of licence that you will adhere to the guidelines in the religious broadcasting policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15693             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15694             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15695             Still on programming, and I hope I'm not going to try your patience on what I am trying to ask.  I know we have gone around this about the exact hours of spoken programming, local news, et cetera, et cetera, many times and I know you have tried to give us a lot of information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15696             Now, I think that perhaps, though, I would like to keep it very simple and if you could just dumb it down for me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15697             Because you have spreadsheets in your deficiency responses showing how you arrived at the numbers and you also expressed the numbers in terms of what your goal is in terms of local programming.  For example, you say the goal is 69.5, but the commitment is 63.  And then you express it in percentages and sometimes it's in minutes per day, sometimes it's hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15698             So it's a little bit difficult for us to make all of the calculations reconcile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15699             I'm going to go through each category and if you could just state for me in terms of hours per week what each of these numbers will be, I would really appreciate it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15700             MR. McNABB:  I will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15701             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15702             So what we will start first is:  What is the amount of hours per week of total spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15703             Let's just stick to commitments, not targets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15704             MR. McNABB:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15705             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So total hours of spoken word per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15706             MR. McNABB:  So let's take a look at page 6 of the spreadsheet.  Spoken word program totals, okay ‑‑ this is local and national ‑‑ 84.5 hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15707             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  Good, I will note that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15708             You are showing on that same sheet non‑Canadian spoken word is 49.5 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15709             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15710             MR. McNABB:  Hang on.  Okay, I go to my ‑‑ yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15711             49.5 hours, correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15712             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15713             Canadian spoken word is 7 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15714             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15715             MR. McNABB:  Canadian national spoken word programming is 7 hours.  That just hasn't been developed yet in this country ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15716             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15717             MR. McNABB:  ‑‑ because the industry is still in its infancy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15718             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15719             Then weekly hours devoted to religious programming, is it 84.5 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15720             MR. McNABB:  Well, let's see now.  I know music programming isn't considered an issue of balance, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15721             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  No.  Spoken word, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15722             MR. McNABB:  So the 84.5 hours with the balance of hours being heavily weighted toward, you know, local surveillance with Christian music.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15723             MR. McNABB:  So 84.5 hours spoken word program totals, local and then national, and then what we call the announcer‑hosted local spoken word and music hours 41.5.  Add the two together, there is your 126 hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15724             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Could you run that by me again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15725             MR. McNABB:  Sure.  We have spoken word program totals, local and national, 84.5 hours a week.  Then the announcer‑hosted, like 6:00 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. Monday to Friday; noon to 1:00 Monday to Friday; 4:00 to 6:00 Monday to Friday; plus 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 on Saturday and Sunday.  The announcer‑hosted hours that include music, but again music is taking a back seat because of the opportunities for local information, but those hours are 41.5.  So add the 84.5 to the 41.5, there is your 126 hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15726             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15727             You also had a category of spoken ‑‑ I think religious spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15728             MR. McNABB:  Religious spoken word.  Now, I'm looking at my ‑‑ I'm looking at my spreadsheets here and I don't ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15729             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  Maybe it was in a ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15730             MR. McNABB:  ‑‑ see the word religious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15731             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay, my mistake.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15732             MR. McNABB:  Because the spreadsheet is the final arbiter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15733             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay, great.  Okay, so I see where I see a local spoken word Bible teaching.  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15734             Sorry, total spoken word is 84.5?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15735             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15736             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  What about total local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15737             MR. McNABB:  Total local programming, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15738             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  And I have ‑‑ I will tell you what I have and you can just tell me ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15739             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15740             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  ‑‑ whether that's correct, that you are committing to 63 hours per week of local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15741             MR. McNABB:  Nope.  I am committing to 69.5.  On that spreadsheet that has ‑‑ page six of one of the intervention responses there, if you go right, almost halfway down the middle it says:

"Local live and non‑live program totals for above‑noted programs which include local newscasts in each program, hours of local programming 69.5."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15742             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  So that is the number that you will actually commit to, 69.5?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15743             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15744             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15745             What about what I call ‑‑ oh, let's go with news, how many hours of news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15746             MR. McNABB:  News, the building blocks of the whole radio station.  Without this we would be lost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15747             We have got, let's see here now ‑‑ we have got 14.4 hours of just newscasts each week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15748             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Now, is that 14.4 pure news in what ‑‑ pure news I mean not including surveillance like traffic reports, weather?  It's 14.5 ‑‑ 14.4 of pure news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15749             MR. McNABB:  Yes, those news packages would be news; local news and sports and weather is on top of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15750             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  So the 14.4 does or does not include surveillance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15751             MR. McNABB:  Well, it does not include surveillance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15752             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, great, so 14.4 of pure news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15753             MR. McNABB:  In fact, I didn't even ‑‑ it was interesting.  I addressed surveillance issues but I never put them into my calculations.  So you know, you think of all the possible forms of surveillance we talked about were way over 14.4 hours, with news plus surveillance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15754             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, but you did include the surveillance as part of the spoken word, didn't you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15755             MR. McNABB:  No, I did not, no.  This is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15756             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15757             MR. McNABB:  Not at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15758             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Then I think, Mr. McNabb, you are going to have to file a revised sort of delineation of the programming.  And could you please give me the number inclusive of all total spoken word and per week, what would be the total amount of spoken word in hours per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15759             MR. McNABB:  Done.  I noticed it as I was preparing for the hearing that I never even put my surveillance calculations in.  So I have done this and I will be happy to file it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15760             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Then if you put this surveillance in what is your total spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15761             MR. McNABB:  Okay, 88.62 hours.  There is 4.12 hours of surveillance.  That's additional documented but not previously calculated spoken word commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15762             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Does it change the local programming number?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15763             MR. McNABB:  You see in ‑‑ this is where it gets hairy because in local programming ‑‑ or let's talk about 7:00 to 8:00 a.m. just for the fun of it.  That's already a local programming hour and then we have subsets and surveillance within that local programming hour.  We break those out but the hour is still an hour, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15764             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15765             MR. McNABB:  And it's still local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15766             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15767             MR. McNABB:  So we ‑‑ I have broken those out here and hopefully that will suffice.  It will be in memoriam funeral announcements, it will be the local church or charity of the week; it will be the community bulletin board, church and charity announcements.  It will be the Christian concert and event updates, all things that we talked about in the application but just never calculated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15768             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So Mr. McNabb, then you could file those revised numbers with us, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15769             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15770             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And may I just go through the list just so you know what we are expecting to receive ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15771             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15772             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  ‑‑ in the revisions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15773             So I am looking for hours per week of total spoken word, total local programming; total news in terms of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15774             MR. McNABB:  Please, I want to make sure I am getting everything here.  So we are looking at what, again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15775             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Total spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15776             MR. McNABB:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15777             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Total local programming, total pure news.  By pure news I mean not including surveillance like weather and traffic.  That's not included in pure news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15778             Then in the pure news could you also break it down into what ‑‑ how many hours of the pure news would be local news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15779             MR. McNABB:  May I address that, because there is something that we are doing that is extremely distinct from what you will hear literally on 95 percent of radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15780             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, you will have a chance to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15781             MR. McNABB:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15782             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  But let's just do the numbers right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15783             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15784             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, so what percentage of the ‑‑ yes, but how many hours of local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15785             MR. McNABB:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15786             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And then if local news doesn't total 14.4, then what would be the other parts of the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15787             Then I would like, please, total weather, total sports coverage if any and then total promotion of local events and activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15788             In fact, I believe that there is one deficiency response that I can find for you very quickly that summarizes what is included in spoken word.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15789             MR. McNABB:  The October or the July letter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15790             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Here, it is on page four of the ‑‑ I believe it's the ‑‑ page four of the response to letter of June 27.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15791             MR. McNABB:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15792             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And it's in the question number 5, 5(i) that breaks down for you the categories of what we would say comprised spoken word.  So if you could break those numbers down as a final number?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15793             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, is that doable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15794             MR. McNABB:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15795             COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15796             MR. McNABB:  Now, when would you like this filed by?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15797             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I was just going to ‑‑ how long do you need?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15798             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  Well, after we finish the back and forth today, I can lock myself up in a room tomorrow and get this banged out for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15799             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Would end of the day do, legal counsel, tomorrow?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15800             MS SMITH:  We will give you one week to file it, one week from today, end of day, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15801             MR. McNABB:  Fair enough, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15802             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15803             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15804             So Mr. McNabb, when I'm looking at local programming even if I say with the revisions, I take it up to ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ 75 hours.  You are saying you commit to 69.5 and you have added about say four hours in addition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15805             Say if it's 75 hours, 75 out of 126 broadcast hours per week, that still leaves a big chunk of non‑local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15806             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15807             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Of non‑local programming, and of that non‑local program I know you have also broken it down into non‑Canadian and Canadian.  And from the last set of numbers I received, the non‑Canadian amount about just under 50 hours.  It is 40‑something hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15808             MR. McNABB:  49.5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15809             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, 49.5 which is what, 40 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15810             And I know that in your submissions and all you talk about highly localized, you talk about intensely local.  For one, I find that not very ‑‑ just the numbers not very consistent with how you are characterizing this as highly localized.  That's the first point that you would need to address.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15811             And the second point is why?  Why do ‑‑ why such a high level of non‑local, non‑Canadian?  You could have a very good reason in terms of revenue or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15812             So could you address those two points, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15813             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  Why such a high level of non‑local and the two points ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15814             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Non‑Canadian; non‑local and non‑Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15815             MR. McNABB:  Non‑Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15816             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15817             MR. McNABB:  I would have put this in perspective by establishing or identifying a standard for top level local service.  And the dean of local programming in radio in this country is Elmer Hildebrand.   Now, if you take a look at the ‑‑ and this is in the papers, my presentation papers I gave to Cindy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15818             Elmer says, and this is where I quote.  He says:

"Local news is where we have hung our hats because, at the end of the day, music is readily available anywhere.  The important thing is the local service and the music is what holds it all together and fills in the off time.  But music is not what drives our business nor our radio stations."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 15819             MR. McNABB:  So the whole thing here is local news.  Let's take a look at an hour of non‑local time.  See if you have a Focus on the Family, these programs that comprise these 49.5 hours, these programs are heard on radio stations across this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15820             And as you know, the Religious Broadcasting Policy identified that our religious programming gets a short shift.  It is marginalized into the late evenings and all nights and Sunday mornings and there is an opportunity for people to get these programs that they know and they love.  So it's just like in a case of an hour of music you get a 10‑song hour and 60 percent of your songs are American and 40 percent of your songs are Canadian, here we have a situation where still a minority of our program hours are American and a majority of our program hours are Canadian.  So I really want to draw that distinction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15821             And that being said, you take a look at Focus on the Family.  These paid programs are 28 minutes and 30 seconds in length on average.  That means when we run those programs there is going to be approximately three minutes an hour that we can squeeze into a two‑minute newscast.  We are going to do eight minutes on the hour from 6:00 a.m. to 8:30.  We are going to do eight minutes in the noon hour, doing eight minutes during our talk shows.  We are doing eight minutes in drive time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15822             But in those hours that we have these 28 minute and 30 second programs, there is three minutes there to do some local news and get in a commercial or a promo or what have you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15823             So these are programs that Canadians are already listening to, already know, already love and that we are just giving them at times that are more convenient to them.  And as a result, we can be highly local because people are going to tune in for the local news.  If they don't like the Canadian or the local or the non‑Canadian program they can go back to their favourite radio station, but they are always going to be coming back for local news, you know, updated every hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15824             Does that answer your question okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15825             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I'm just trying to digest it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15826             So I think ‑‑ is what you are telling me, that when you talk about highly localized what I should really be thinking about is that the local programming that you provide will be highly localized?  What local programming ‑‑ the 69.5 to 75 hours that is what will be intensely local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15827             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15828             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15829             MR. McNABB:  And then every hour of those other 49.5 you are going to have intensely local news in between those two programs at the top of every hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15830             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  So it's just that what you will ‑‑ what you characterize as local will be very, very local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15831             MR. McNABB:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15832             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  But overall the reality is that there will be a large proportion of the program when you ‑‑ of the station when you look at it as a whole, will be non‑Canadian programming and non‑local programming for reasons we thought we can explore later?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15833             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15834             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15835             MR. McNABB:  But we will still be local every hour, no matter what.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15836             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15837             So that takes us ‑‑ that probably leads us into revenues and financials.  Now, I have a little bit of trouble again reconciling your numbers, and if I'm too slow at that or if there have just been too many revisions we may just ‑‑ I may just ask you again for an undertaking to file the final numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15838             Now, you had a ‑‑ you filed a revised application and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15839             MR. McNABB:  I think you have got me confused with another applicant.  I did one application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15840             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, I hope so.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15841             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You are right.  That's great, that's good news.  Then I don't have to reconcile these.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15842             Okay, great.  Then I will just go back to your ‑‑ do you want to pull up your overview?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15843             MR. McNABB:  Sure.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 15844             MR. McNABB:  I have got it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15845             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15846             So let's go to where you talk ‑‑ I think it's page four where you are talking about what we are selling.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15847             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15848             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Now, I will first try and get a better understanding of what each of those are.  Then, secondly, I would like to know how they actually generate revenue and then, lastly, I sort of would like to reconcile those with the ‑‑ with your financial operations statement that you have filed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15849             Now, just on page four when you are talking about ‑‑ and you described them in your October 3rd deficiency response, you know, programming that automatically comes with its own revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15850             Now, let's go down to the first bullet of 318,240 in national pre‑produced Christian talk programs at specific primetime.  Now, this is brokered programming, is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15851             MR. McNABB:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15852             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15853             Now, I know you have got right now not a parent company but your biggest financial backer is EMF or K‑Love in California.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15854             MR. McNABB:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15855             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Right, and they operate some ‑‑ I think two chains of Christian radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15856             MR. McNABB:  Right, yes, they have over 200 radio stations in the Christian format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15857             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Is that the source of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15858             MR. McNABB:  They are my banker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15859             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  They are, yes.  And how does that play into the 318,240?  Are you buying the ‑‑ are you selling the time to them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15860             MR. McNABB:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15861             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  No?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15862             MR. McNABB:  No, K‑Love is providing the ‑‑ or the Educational Media Foundation, EMF ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15863             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15864             MR. McNABB:  ‑‑ is providing the financing that covers you know start‑up costs as we get rolling along.  But the 318 is revenue that we are selling to Focus on the Family, Back to the Bible, People's Gospel Hour; all these national Christian ‑‑ you see EMF K‑Love is a music‑oriented ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15865             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15866             MR. McNABB:  ‑‑ network.  They are all music.  Here I am all talk.  It's black and white.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15867             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15868             MR. McNABB:  And so we sell to national Christian charitable organizations in Canada and in the United States who produce half‑hour shows, quarter‑hour shows based on Bible talk and teaching, and as a result they buy that time from us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15869             The way they make their money is at the end of the program.  For example, Focus on the Family, let's say James Dobson has Gary Smalley who is one of the most prolific marriage and family authors around, and at the end of the show just say, "And if you would like a copy of Dr. Smalley's latest book, 'The Hidden Keys to a Loving Relationship', for your tax‑deductible gift of $35 we will have it on your doorstep in a week."  And then boom, that's it, nice soft sell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15870             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15871             MR. McNABB:  So they sell Christian books, audio CDs and DVDs.  That's how they make their money.  So it's like a direct response but it's not shilling product.  It's just a very soft sell at the end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15872             If you ever want to get a handle on that, tune into CHRI in Ottawa and just listen to Focus on the Family.  You get an idea of how they make their money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15873             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Now, is there any ‑‑ will there be any programming where you actually ‑‑ where there will be solicitation of funds from the audience, the listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15874             MR. McNABB:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15875             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15876             The 24,700 in local live or pre‑produced local Christian talk programs produced by local church organizations is that ‑‑ that's basically selling them, the local organizations the time slots then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15877             MR. McNABB:  You bet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15878             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Yes, you have explained the funeral announcements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15879             30,000 in commercial for local churches, bookstores, and those will be pure advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15880             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15881             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  And the 12,000 in profits I understand that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15882             On the ‑‑ are you going to be counting on any of these sources of revenue from Peterborough or only Kawartha Lakes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15883             MR. McNABB:  Only Kawartha Lakes.  We are trying to bend over backwards to be a collaborator and not a cannibal in the market, for the very simple reason that I have got another application that I am filing with you good people hopefully before Christmas, and I have got to show a good track record of being a corporate citizen so I can get the second licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15884             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  So I'm going along further down in the overview where you talk about ‑‑ you start with what revenues are budgeted and what is not budgeted.  You have three items that are budgeted:  the $30,000 in commercials, which we have talked about; the $25,000 in funeral announcements, which we understand; and the $12,000 in profit from different concerts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15885             MR. McNABB:  Yes, and that's a typo, just so you know, because you can see in the financial operations part of the application, and in my column on page 4, that the funeral announcements amount is $65,700.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15886             That is based on historical numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15887             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Then, on your non‑budgeted numbers, on the same page, you have Items 4 through 11, and you are saying "not budgeted", but asking for permission to generate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15888             None of those ‑‑ you are asking for $25,000 in revenue for commercials for Christian‑owned businesses in Item 4, and so on.  Those are not activities that you need regulatory approval for to carry out.  You don't need our permission to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15889             However, I think what we would like to ask you for is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15890             I can only assume that you will carry those out, because there is no prohibition against it.  As a result, if you put those numbers back into your revenue projections, then I would need revised revenue projections, and, in turn, the impact on incumbents, according to your calculations, when you put those numbers back in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15891             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  I would like to share with you why I asked permission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15892             It is the old "darned if you do; darned if you don't" scenario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15893             In 2004 I had the honour and privilege and unmitigated pleasure of being denied by the CRTC the 96.7 frequency because poor old CHUM/globemedia said that big, bad, Andy McNabb was going to come home and beat them up and sell too many commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15894             So I travelled to Ottawa, and I said, "Guys, what do I do?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15895             I said, "I will tell you what I will do.  I will pull off almost all of our commercials, and we won't go and beg the car dealer to buy us instead of the newspaper, or to buy us instead of BOB FM.  I will pull all of the commercials.  We will leave a smattering on there for Christian businesses, and we will go heavy on Christian talk."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15896             If you are wondering why we have a lot more American Christian talk, it is because Duff Roman and the gang were complaining that I was going to beat him up.  Poor kids.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15897             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I understand the history behind this, and I know why you are asking for permission, so I guess the other way around it is, say, in the Peterborough market, would you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15898             I might be jumping the gun a bit, because I don't know what your plans are yet about Peterborough, whether you intend to broadcast there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15899             Also, now with the change of the technical approval from Industry Canada, I don't know how much of Peterborough your contour will still cover.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15900             But, in any event, would you accept as a Condition of Licence not soliciting advertising from the Peterborough market, and not offering any Peterborough news or any other local spoken word programming as part of your Kawartha Lakes service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15901             MR. McNABB:  I would be happy to.  I want to be a collaborator, not a competitor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15902             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15903             MR. McNABB:  Just to make sure that everybody is on base here, I am just fine with the revenue items in the income statement as they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15904             Because of the brouhaha that resulted in 2004, I said, "Hey, we can go to a car dealer and say, `Tell you what.  We are not going to sell any advertising.  We are going to broadcast each Saturday from your dealership.  Do you think we might be able to sell a car?  You make an average of 2,500 bucks profit when you sell a car.  Tell you what.  We will put up the remote broadcast for free, but we get a $1,000 for every one of our listeners who walks in and buys a car.'"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15905             That way we are not fighting for the scraps, like all media partners do.  We get to own a greater share of the action, and it's no money out of pocket for the car dealer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15906             Win, win, win.  Win for us, win for the car dealer, win for poor little BOB FM, who is having trouble generating revenue and ratings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15907             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Great.  That helps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15908             Help me reconcile the numbers.  I am going to your application, Section 4.1, on the financial operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15909             It would help if you pulled that up, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15910             MR. McNABB:  Yes, it's right there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15911             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  If I am looking at the revenues ‑‑ and let's just look at the first year ‑‑ the $318,000 number, I think I can match that to the national brokered programming on your overview.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15912             The $120,000 ‑‑ I just need confirmation of where that comes from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15913             I added up the rest of those items that you listed on page 4 of your overview.  I think they sort of added up to $120,000, but is that what makes up what you call the local revenue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15914             MR. McNABB:  Exactly.  Let's break that out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15915             Programs to local churches, $24,700.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15916             Funeral announcements, $65,700.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15917             And the local direct commercials for the Christian churches and ministries, $30,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15918             That comes out to $120,400, to be exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15919             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What is "Contra"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15920             MR. McNABB:  That is where you trade off.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15921             For example, we will go to the local churches and say, "Listen, we want you to put an ad in your bulletin every single week ‑‑ "

LISTNUM 1 \l 15922             This is the most easily sought out market that you could ever look to target in broadcasting.  We know where our listeners are every Sunday.  They are pretty darned easy to reach and promote to.  It is a wonderfully efficient business model, and it turns traditional radio's business model upside down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15923             As a result, we can go to the newspapers and say, "Listen, you do your faith page, don't you?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 15924             "Yeah, we do."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15925             "Well, tell you what; let's put an ad for the faith‑based radio station in there, and we will promote the articles you have on your faith page coming up in each issue."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15926             "Contra" is trading advertising for advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15927             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You have your total revenue for Year 1 at about $500,000 ‑‑ or $501,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15928             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15929             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Let's flip to the next page, where we are talking about the Statement of Changes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15930             In Year 1 you show your Accounts Receivable as being over $100,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15931             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15932             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  That's 20 percent.  That seems really high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15933             MR. McNABB:  It is high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15934             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Where did that come from?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15935             MR. McNABB:  The formula in that spreadsheet ‑‑ we assumed that we would be collecting 90 days in the first year, and then we would bring it down over time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15936             We just thought, being conservative ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15937             Typically, religious broadcasters do pay extremely promptly.  It's a matter of good stewardship.  But, again, we wanted to put as much conservatism into the cash flow projections as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15938             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  And that is from all of your clients, basically, who advertise or buy your slots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15939             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15940             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I have looked at the loan agreement between you and EMF ‑‑ Educated Media Foundation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15941             MR. McNABB:  Educational Media Foundation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15942             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15943             There are no terms of default ‑‑ and here is where I am going with this question.  Would you lose control if you defaulted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15944             I have read the agreement, and it is very carefully crafted, and it says that at no time will anybody do anything to render this offside of the regulations, in terms of control, but it is still a little unusual for a loan agreement to not have terms of default, and what happens on default, and what would be the creditors' rights on default.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15945             The first question is:  Is there any other loan agreement with them that you would intend to enter into, should you be granted a licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15946             MR. McNABB:  Absolutely not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15947             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  If there were one ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15948             I am not doubting your word, but the world changes.  If there were one, would you undertake to file it as soon as it came into existence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15949             MR. McNABB:  We would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15950             But we addressed default and they said no, they are content to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15951             When we were drafting this together, they were content to have the mechanism for mediation, which is very much described, in detail, in the agreement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15952             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You are not granting any other security?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15953             MR. McNABB:  Zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15954             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I also see from the agreement that the American corporation is taking the maximum number ‑‑ has the right ‑‑ has the option to take the maximum number of shares without going offside the Canadian regulation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15955             I assume that there will be a shareholders' agreement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15956             MR. McNABB:  Yes.  If they do exercise that option ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15957             We are working on a couple of other initiatives that they may want to ‑‑ if they want shares, they may want to put them into that, but that is all down the road.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15958             But, yes, if they partnered with us, without question, we would have to have a shareholders' agreement.  It benefits me, it benefits them, and that would, naturally, be filed, should they exercise that option for the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15959             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Could you undertake to file such documents, as they come into existence, that are relevant to the operation of your station, or that may relate to the control of your radio station, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15960             MR. McNABB:  Control will always be right here.  I have laboured too long, too hard, and suffered too much over 15 years to give anyone else control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15961             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What local revenue you are going to derive, how do you think it will impact King's Kids?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15962             MR. McNABB:  Zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15963             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Why?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15964             MR. McNABB:  First of all, their signal doesn't even come into the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15965             Even if we were a Peterborough applicant, I would be saying zero.  Why?  Don't take my word for it, let's talk to Catherine Robertson, who responded in my response to Scott Jackson, in my November 15th filing to his intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15966             Catherine Robertson, by the way, of Eagle‑Com, is the largest buyer of Christian program time in this country, buying millions upon millions of dollars of these half‑hour Christian program times, primarily for the benefit of American charities.  They have found that Canadians just love this programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15967             Because our industry is only 14 years old, we haven't had a chance to build a Canadian talk industry yet, and that is why we are doing what we are doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15968             Big oaks from small acorns grow, and we are going to start it right in the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15969             Catherine said:  There is no hope in ‑‑ you know what ‑‑ that there is going to be any chance of dollars coming off any other Christian radio station because of all the money they are putting with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15970             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15971             You filed an Appendix 1A, "Combined Statement of Pre‑Operating Costs and Assumptions".

LISTNUM 1 \l 15972             MR. McNABB:  I am there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15973             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I see that a lot of your revenue has ‑‑ you show a 15 percent "Agency".  What is that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15974             MR. McNABB:  That is how Catherine Robertson makes her money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15975             For example, if she buys a program for, let's say, "Focus on the Family", they would pay ‑‑ be billed by her for 175 bucks, just for the sake of argument, and she would take 15 percent off and pay us the net.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15976             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  It is basically her sales commission for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 15977             MR. McNABB:  Agency commission, just like if you were the ad agency for Campbell Soup.  You would bill Campbell's $175 a spot, and then pay the net to the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15978             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  One of the letters that you have attached is from BDO Dunwoody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15979             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15980             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You confirmed that you have $217,600 in written revenue commitments for programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15981             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15982             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Where did you include that in your first year revenue, in the national $318,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15983             MR. McNABB:  Yes, that $217,600 is part of the $318,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15984             So we have 100 to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15985             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15986             MR. McNABB:  But this is a good point.  How many applicants have you seen, in any format, in any city, in any hearing, that have 48 percent of their revenues on the books a year in advance of going on the air?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15987             This is the strength of this business model.  This is the strength of demand, why these programmers were on my station before Centario and CHUM/CTVglobemedia dropped them like a hot potato.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15988             We don't speak from hypotheses about what we might do; we speak on what we have done, and they are coming back in spades and committing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15989             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  We are nearing the end of the financials, which is great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15990             The large amount of spoken word programming that you have, usually spoken word programming is associated with very high costs for production, because of staffing needs and all, and yet your budget for the programming expenses and the staffing needs seems a bit low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15991             Can you explain that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 15992             I think you have given me an inkling on a lot of ‑‑ you are relying on quite a bit of volunteer staff, but I need to hear it from you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15993             MR. McNABB:  Oh, this is where it's fun.  Whereas these broadcasters have to pay their people to work for them, our people pay us.  It's a beautiful business model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15994             James Dobson of "Focus on the Family" pays us to be on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15995             Chuck Swindoll of "Insight for Living" pays us to be on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15996             What about local?  Pastor Bob at XYZ Community Church isn't paying us to be on the air; what he is doing is, he is taking, let's say, a one and a half hour shift, and he is doing two or two and a half hours of preparation for it, but he gets a platform, and people will say, "Hey, this Pastor Bob ain't a half‑bad guy.  It sounds like he really knows what he is talking about.  I am going to check out his church next Sunday."

LISTNUM 1 \l 15997             He gets the exposure.  That way he isn't selling for his church; no, he is addressing the topics of the day from a faith‑based perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15998             It is a great "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" relationship, and it doesn't cost us a red cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15999             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16000             I took my Chair's advice when she said "Never say it's the last question."  I said it was the tail end, I never said it was the last.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16001             I want to go back to ‑‑ you have a line item here that says ‑‑ and I think I have covered it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16002             The $318,240 is net of agency commissions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16003             Yes, I got those numbers to jibe.  I don't need to ask that any more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16004             Let's move on to the technical questions, which are easier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16005             We have all received the letter from Industry Canada severely cutting your maximum power from your proposed over 12,000 to 4,300.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16006             My first question is:  Have you had a chance to calculate yet what would be your average power now that the maximum is 4.39?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16007             MR. McNABB:  In terms of maximum average power, we talked about coverage, and I got an e‑mail from Doug McCauley, our engineer, on December 11th, who stated what the radius would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16008             Because of that last‑minute situation with the CBC complaining about the parameters, yes, we had to pull back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16009             Doug has identified the radius for the signal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16010             We talked about distance, so we could see what populations we would be covering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16011             So, no, we didn't do another technical brief to determine what the average power would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16012             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  What is the radius?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16013             I was getting all ready to type it in, but can you file that for us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16014             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16015             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Do you have a revised contour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16016             MR. McNABB:  No, we haven't done a revised contour, for one specific reason ‑‑ there are a number of alternatives.  We can keep on the CTV tower.  We can keep the 96.7 signal, it is just a matter of where the antenna ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16017             I don't speak strongly to matters technical, but where the directional signal is pointed, we happen to point in one direction ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16018             For example, Don Conway doesn't have any problems.  He is not too far different, but he has the population contours that we would be happy to run with if we were licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16019             I have no problem with taking the exact contours that he has, if you decided:  Okay, the City of Kawartha Lakes needs a big signal for a big area, and we will give Don something else over in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16020             Obviously, I am speaking hypothetically, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16021             That said, we can slice this a number of ways.  We can achieve the population coverage of our original brief with different technical modifications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16022             I am fully confident, based on my discussions with Doug ‑‑ although this pulls it back, because that was something that the CBC could wrap their minds around, saying, "Okay, if that isn't going to interfere with us, we can live with it."

LISTNUM 1 \l 16023             But we know, because of Don ‑‑ and he is coming from the CTV tower, too ‑‑ that we can definitely achieve the same City of Kawartha Lakes population coverage, or greater, with another brief, but we would ask the kindness of your permission to do that subject to licensing, because of the fact that it still has to go through the approvals of the other parties anyway.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16024             So let's spend the money if we get licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16025             Is that okay?  Does that detract from our case?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16026             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I will ask legal counsel whether that is acceptable, to do the revised contour and technical brief upon licensing.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16027             MS SMITH:  We will have to contemplate that, but we will get back to you at the reply stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16028             MR. McNABB:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16029             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16030             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  The bottom line for us here is that you believe you will hit the same population base and numbers, and therefore you believe it will not negatively impact your business case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16031             MR. McNABB:  Yes, with a new parameter.  This one was just a temporary measure to get the CBC to say, "All right.  Hands off.  We can live with that," but we know there are other solutions on the same tower, with the same frequency, which will give us the same population coverage or greater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16032             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16033             We can move on to CCD now.  I know you covered that in the deficiency response.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16034             It is a $500 over and above contribution, 20 percent of that to FACTOR, and for the $400 your response is that you will finance musical production of new and emerging artists from the 64 Kawartha Lakes City churches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16035             Now I don't know whether you have had a chance to take a look at the Commercial Radio Policy of 2006.  In paragraph 108 in that policy it sets out the eligible CCD initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16036             With respect to emerging artists and all we need to have a better idea of what kind of initiatives ‑‑ for example, is it talent contests ‑‑ what kind of initiatives you will use to fund the emerging artists.  So can you elaborate on that, what are the initiatives that you propose?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16037             MR. McNABB:  Yes.  I have paragraph 108 right in front of me too, so there you go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16038             Now I would like to refer you to the 5‑point plan in the application, Commissioner, which I believe is section 7.3 under "Cultural diversity," where the Commission asked for us to address diversity in the following areas, employment practices, news, music.  So let's just go through these things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16039             Number one, commitment to local artists for recording purposes, bringing the best local talent together to record annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16040             Well, with 63‑64‑65 churches in the City of Kawartha Lakes, that is more than all the bars and nightclubs put together.  That is a source of musical talent that rehearses and plans and produces more than anybody else of any other genre in the city in quantum with the number of people involved.  So with that, there is a heck of a lot of undiscovered talent who can bring a strong degree of professionalism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16041             So what we want to do ‑‑ I know that the pat answer is oh, yeah, we will do a CD.  But look at this.  We are talking about an emerging industry here.  The whole Christian broadcasting industry, whether it is music or talk, is in its infancy.  We aim to grow it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16042             So what we want to do is create the Kawartha Gospel choir.  And what we will do, we will hold an annual concert about this time of year, November‑December, down at the Academy Theatre that we rent for $1,000, and what we are going to do, we are going to take the best talent and bring them together as a mass choir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16043             We are going to have individual soloists, duets, trios and then a whole group of them, whether it's 20 of them, 30 of them, 40 of them, how many we can get that will muster the quality that we are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16044             And then you know what we are going to do?  We are going to record right there at the Academy Theatre so as people walk out they can order CDs as gift items for that very situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16045             So we will spend money as an honorarium for the singers in quantum, give them their gas money to drive down from Bobcaygeon or Fenelon Falls.  We will be producing the CDs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16046             And you know what?  We are all doing it from a cash‑positive perspective.  Why?  We get the orders as people are going out.  We can do the final post‑production in the studio over the next three days and send the CDs out to their doorstep within 10 days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16047             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  So just to clarify, is this just for the Kawartha Lakes Gospel Choir that you are going to create or is it for all other emerging artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16048             Like how would ‑‑ if I were an emerging artist in Kawartha Lakes, how would I get the funding?  Like do I apply, do I apply to you, do I apply to a third party, how would you select me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16049             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  We will be seeking you out.  We will be at the churches on Sunday morning or Sunday evening services talking about this or we will be at choir practice on Thursday night and saying, listen, we want to foster the emergence of new talent here, because if it is local it is going to resonate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16050             So quite simply, we are going to invite them to be part of the choir, they can be part of the ‑‑ they can be a soloist, they can sing en masse, whatever works best, but we are ready and willing to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16051             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  So is it basically funding for the choir and you are going to invite emerging artists and maybe others with talent or without to come join the choir, then your initiative will be to fund them and make the CDs of the choir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16052             MR. McNABB:  Yes, but there may be an outstanding soloist at a church.  Well, quite simply, we will give them an opportunity if they want for a solo on that CD.  You can easily put 20 songs on a CD and you will definitely, without question, be able to showcase the variety of instrumental and vocal talent that is in the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16053             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16054             Now in the event that the initiatives that you describe are not eligible, where would you like the money to go?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16055             MR. McNABB:  We would just give it to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16056             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay, great.  Thanks.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16057             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Those are my questions.  Thank you for your patience.  Thank you for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16058             MR. McNABB:  Thank you for your patience, I appreciate it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies has a couple of questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16060             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am just curious to follow up on your business model in terms of your revenue from ‑‑ I understand the need for people to read obituaries and when they can't read them anymore, to hear them but I don't understand ‑‑ here are the issues that I wanted to address.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16061             The Kawartha Lakes area has some community websites operating now who are attempting to fill the news void left, I guess, when ‑‑ that people have spoken about.  How are you going to charge people for something they can kind of get for free on there, especially given media consumption trends going towards the internet?  That is sort of one part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16062             The other thing is, on the same line ‑‑ I am not thinking now but down the line ‑‑ focus on the Family Dobson.  I can pop open his website here and I can click on it and I can listen to it, right, and if I want, I can buy the CDs right off his website.  Why isn't that trend just going to continue, which has me wondering why you wouldn't just do the same thing in terms of creating a web presence for this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16063             And the last part of that is in terms of the participation levels you talked about ‑‑ this is sort of separate but I will give you both questions at once if you want to write it down ‑‑ the participation levels from pastors in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16064             In terms of advertising, first of all, churches, even really big ones, don't typically have much money for advertising ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16065             MR. McNABB:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16066             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  ‑‑ because they like to give it to the poor and stuff, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16067             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16068             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  They do at mine anyway and it is not always deemed the best use of money by the elders and by the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16069             And the personnel themselves are very busy men and women.  They have weddings to do, they have baptisms to do, they have hands to hold, they have funerals to do, they have families in crisis, they have tons of pastoral care to do, they have sermons to write.  They are social workers, everything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16070             Isn't it a bit of an imposition on them to draw them into a commercial enterprise like this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16071             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  In terms of advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16072             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Well, one is the advertising and one is ‑‑ I got a sense that you were going to ask for a lot of participation levels from them into these things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16073             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16074             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I can understand a lot of enthusiasm at the front end ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16075             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16076             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  ‑‑ but I can also imagine two or three years down the road, you know, sorry, Andy, I don't have time, I have got a widow to take care of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16077             MR. McNABB:  That is right.  And you know what?  You are going to get into that without question.  Pastors are some of the most overworked people, period.  Forget about work for the pay.  I am just talking about work, period.  These people are heavily worked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16078             So what happens is we are giving them a platform to do something that they have never been able to do before.  Why?  Their mission is outreach and instead of one‑to‑one, going over to Mrs. Jones' place or Mr. Smith's place, they are going now one‑to‑thousands and as a result this helps make the church smarter because when a local church has a program or a local pastor is heard regularly, what happens is people start going to that church.  They start dropping money into the collection plate.  Well, money means resources of time, people, materials, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16079             So there is a very direct cause and effect relationship to them coming on the air, to more people coming into the church and in the level of giving going up at that church, which can be used to fund part‑time staff or other outreach, which makes the whole church more effective and have a greater outreach, which is what they are called to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16080             In terms of advertising, you are right.  Look at, you know, the newspaper, literally since the 1800s, has had it made with those insipid little come worship with us ads, you know, at Cambridge Street United Church, 123 Cambridge Street, services at 9:30 and 11:00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16081             Well, you know what?  That gives me no reason as to why I should come to your church, Pastor.  You have got to tell me why I should come to your church, how am I going to grow, what separates your church from anybody else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16082             Well, quite simply, that is why we are going to teach the church how to better position themselves.  It is not who you are, what you do and where we can find you.  It is about the compelling message of Christ the Saviour.  What are you preaching about this weekend, let's talk about it, and that is how you advertise because people will say, hey, that resonates with me, I'm going in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16083             So that is how it is done there in terms of the advertising and the exchange and we will always be cultivating new talk shows.  I want to have a stable.  I want to have three people deep for every day.  So if Pastor Bob has to officiate at a funeral, maybe church board member Frank can be there or church board member Mary can be the host.  You go deep.  Every space shuttle has a backup crew.  Well, we are not just going two deep, we are going three deep for everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16084             Andy, does that mean you are going to always be cultivating a crew of three every day?  You betcha we are because it makes us stronger and doesn't leave us vulnerable.  Pretty easy to do with 63‑64‑65 churches in the City of Kawartha Lakes because we are not just relying on the pastor, we are relying on passionate Christians who walk their talk, who will be trained and developed by us as we go along.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16085             So we definitely anticipate burnout, scheduling conflicts.  That is why we are going three deep every single day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16086             Now let's talk about the internet.  Wow!  You betcha the internet is going and it is playing an increasing role.  Now, how can we leverage that?  How can we make that effective from an outreach point of view to bring spiritual comfort to the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes?  And because we are a business we have got to pay the bills.  How can we monetize it without those trends cannibalizing what we are doing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16087             Well, it is all about being ubiquitous.  Quite simply, you are not going to catch James Dobson on the internet everywhere.  You have got to sit down, you have got to type it in, you have got to sit at your desk and listen.  You are not going to do that for 30 minutes at a time, just sit there and listen to James Dobson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16088             Radio is a portable medium.  We are portable people and as a result we are going everywhere you are.  That program is there, plus we are going to be able just to link it right through Dobson's website, a link right on our website, obviously, that they know they don't have to find out each individual broadcast ministry but there is a direct link if they want.  Hey, you are only able to catch the last 15 minutes of the program, you thought it was good, go to our website if you want to sit down and listen to it, it will be right there or we will be playing it back this evening as well.  So that is a good thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16089             What about in memoriams?  It is the same thing.  It is all about ubiquity.  You have to ‑‑ you know, most people don't allow you to surf the net at work for personal business.  So you don't want to check up on who is dead and who is not by waiting till you go home, and on your nice slow dial‑up ‑‑ because they don't have broadband in Dunsford or in Kinmount or in Bobcaygeon or in points in between, they have dial‑up, hoo‑ha!  And so as a result you don't want to get on there and wait for it to come up, and if a lot of people are online that just doesn't work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16090             Well, quite simply, we are going everywhere they are.  They can jump out in the car on their lunch hour, turn on the radio or turn on the radio at their desk if they are working through lunch, and there it is, at noon hour they have got the in memoriam funeral announcements, and right in the 5:00‑6:00 hour, there it is, the in memoriam funeral announcements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16091             We have got it all over the internet.  I don't care how fast or how big it grows, we have got pre‑emptive advantage and we can leverage that for our own internet presence right across the City of Kawartha Lakes.  Ain't no problem!

LISTNUM 1 \l 16092             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16093             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I want to know, Mr. McNabb, how many hours you are going to be on the air.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16094             MR. McNABB:  I will sign the cheques, thank you very much.  I will collect them too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16095             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just have a couple of cleanup questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16096             Your target demo is 50+?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16097             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16098             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a core target demographic group within that 50+ large demo that you are targeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16099             MR. McNABB:  It is a wide 50+ for the very specific reason that as we get older our focus becomes a little more clear on where our eternal destination might be.  As a result, the giving, the purchases to the ‑‑ the giving to these national Christian talk ministries actually increases with age.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16100             They are empty‑nesters, they have got more discretionary income, they have taken semi‑retirement, early retirement, full retirement.  As a result, these people are not subject to the recessionary charges.  So the older it gets, the better it is for us and that is why these people want to be back on board in the City of Kawartha Lakes because it was one of the oldest markets when I had the station and it is only getting older today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16101             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But if you had to define the median age of your average listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16102             MR. McNABB:  I remember that question from monitoring the other thing.  I am right with you.  Fifty percent of our listeners are going to be under 60, 50 percent of them are going to be over 60.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16103             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will it skew male or female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16104             MR. McNABB:  You are pretty close, 50‑50, 55‑45, in the local news, everything.  You are going to be right dang on.  Because we are going to be focusing a lot on issues of home, heart, health and pocketbook as it relates to faith‑based perspective, you are looking at pretty much a 50‑50 distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16105             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As far as the musical component of your proposal, will you accept a condition of licence that no less than 95 percent of your weekly music will be from sub‑category 35, which is, of course, non‑classic religious?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16106             MR. McNABB:  Yes.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16107             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Seven hours of Canadian national spoken word, you said it is not developed yet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16108             MR. McNABB:  Well, no, in terms ‑‑ the industry in Canada is in its infancy.  It has been 14 years and all the Christian broadcasters when they were applying for licences were scared about balance.  They didn't want to create any red herring and risk a possible denial, so they said we will do music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16109             Well, quite frankly, the word of God is ministered through music and through preaching and teaching, isn't it?  So it is about time somebody stepped up to the plate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16110             So with ‑‑ if you could rephrase the question, my train of thought just derailed and I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just want to know is this your initiative, are you going to be producing the national spoken‑word programming with any other Canadian religious broadcasters?  If not, if it is your own initiative, do you have plans to distribute this programming to other Canadian Christian broadcasters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16112             We want to get more of a feel for what this Canadian national spoken‑word programming is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16113             MR. McNABB:  Sure.  What we want to do out of the Canadian programs ‑‑ and let me just turn to some reference notes here.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16114             MR. McNABB:  Okay, just to give you a sample of what is out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16115             Perry Rockwood, on 1,000 programs a week ‑‑ a good Halifax boy ‑‑ Perry's "Prophecy for Today" programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16116             "100 Huntley Street" produced a couple of hundred radio programs that they run in rotation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16117             There is not a lot out there.  So yes, we hope that Pastor Bob in our talk show might develop something that we might have originally, maybe a nationally syndicated talk show.  Wouldn't that be wonderful, that we can create homegrown talent!  Nobody else is taking the initiative.  We are sure game.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16118             So we are happy to develop national content that we can share with other Christian stations and build this industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16119             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the event that you cannot ‑‑ for some unforeseen reason it is just not possible ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16120             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16121             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ to develop these seven hours of Canadian national spoken word, how will you fill those seven hours on your schedule?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16122             MR. McNABB:  You know what those seven hours are?  It's two half‑hour programs a day back‑to‑back in the afternoon.  So we take Pastor Bob's sermon from last Sunday, we edit it down and package it up into ‑‑ well, they edit it down and package it up.  The onus is always on them, even when we carried the Sunday morning God Squad on CKLY when I owned it, and as a result we have two churches back‑to‑back, either with their message or Pastor Bob might want to speak on a message, and out of 65 churches, having two half‑hour programs a day is easy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16123             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that would be considered then local programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16124             MR. McNABB:  You betcha.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16125             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16126             One final question and it really is a final question because it does have to do with the frequency issue.

                 MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16127             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you accept an approval in part authorization that would say ‑‑essentially, what approval in part means is yes, we like your idea, go for it but you also have to find another frequency, not 96.7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16128             MR. McNABB:  We will accept whatever you give us because we can make it work, without question.  I made the mistake of saying no in the 2000 hearing and I didn't end up with anything in Toronto.  So I have learned my lesson.  So yes, we will take anything you give us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16129             However, let's always remember ‑‑ the greatest need.  There is only one signal, one frequency that can cover off the majority of the population of the City of Kawartha Lakes with already acceptable parameters like Don Conway's or any endless number of permutations and combinations.  So we know 96.7 can work within accepted parameters that won't cause interference to anybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16130             But we did outline those ‑‑ we did outline alternative frequencies, as I had put into my interventions against the Peterborough broadcasters, where Doug McCaulay had provided his comments on 1‑2‑3‑4‑5‑6‑7‑8‑9‑10‑11 frequencies and that there are many frequencies that can cover off 75,000 or more people from Peterborough but there is only one frequency that can cover just a majority of those 75,000 and that is 96.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16131             So yes, we will take whatever you give us but I really hope the CRTC decides to level the very unbalanced playing field, with seven licensees with big monster signals that are owned by CHUM and Corus already, and allow the City of Kawartha Lakes to have something that is capable of reaching out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16132             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16133             MR. McNABB:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16134             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal Counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16135             MS SMITH:  I have a few additional follow‑up questions for you, Mr. McNabb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16136             Following your conversation with Commissioner del Val related to you not orienting your programming to Peterborough, I would like you to confirm your adherence to the following as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16137             That the station will not identify itself on the basis that includes reference to Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16138             MR. McNABB:  We will abide by that one hundred percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16139             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16140             The station will not include in its programming coverage of local news, sports and events of direct and particular relevance to Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16141             MR. McNABB:  We will be happy to abide by that one hundred percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16142             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16143             The station will not include in its surveillance reports any reference to Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16144             MR. McNABB:  We will be happy to abide by that one hundred percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16145             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16146             The station will not include, in its surveillance reports, any reference to Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16147             MR. McNABB:  We will be happy to abide by that 100 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16148             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16149             I have some additional questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16150             I have a copy here of your oral presentation which includes several documents in support of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16151             Can you confirm which of these documents were submitted in support of your application and which are new?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16152             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16153             Let's take them in order right from the top down.  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16154             Our MP, Barry Devolin says:

"I will support any application as the new radio station to the market.  I believe this community needs a distinctive voice for ..."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 16155             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McNabb ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16156             MR. McNABB:  You don't need to actually ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16157             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ you don't need to read them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16158             MR. McNABB:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We just need to know, of these that you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16160             MR. McNABB:  Barry Devolin, intervention filed in November.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16161             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16162             MR. McNABB:  Okay.  Max Radiff, December 11th.  This was a comment filed for this very purpose to present to you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16163             Okay?  Follow me there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16164             MS SMITH:  Yes, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16165             MR. McNABB:  Okay?  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16166             Barb Kelly.  Barb's intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16167             Rick McGee, the Mayor, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16168             Rick Schenk, the principal of Heritage Christian School, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16169             The People's Gospel Hour, Perry Rockwood, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16170             One of the ministers, Gerry Organ, his intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16171             Eagle‑Com Marketing, Catherine Robertson, her intervention is filed on the CRTC site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16172             Then the last thing is the highlighted excerpts from that broadcast dialogue about Elmer Hildebrand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16173             MS SMITH:  That one is new as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16174             MR. McNABB:  Yes.  That wasn't an intervention, that was just purely for purposes of illustration here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16175             MS SMITH:  In the interests of procedural fairness, Mr. McNabb, I'm sorry, but we won't be able to accept any new documents on the record.  I just wanted to advise you of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16176             MR. McNABB:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16177             MS SMITH:  All right, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16178             Just some additional questions here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16179             Will you undertake to file any agreement relevant to the operation of your station and with respect to the control of your radio station for funding with the Commission as they come into existence in the future?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16180             This is what Commissioner del Val was referring to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16181             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16182             MS SMITH:  Okay.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16183             Last question:  Can you please confirm that you will agree to a condition of licence with respect to your CCD over and above contribution, $500 for years 1 to 4 and $1,000 for years 5 to 7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16184             MR. McNABB:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16185             MS SMITH:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16186             Thank you very much, Mr. McNabb.  Those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16187             MR. McNABB:  Thank you all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McNabb, you have two minutes to give us your final pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16189             MR. McNABB:  Two minutes!

LISTNUM 1 \l 16190             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16191             MR. McNABB:  There is something about a day of like 1,000 years, so what would two minutes get us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16192             Okay.  So why?  Why?  Why?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16193             This radio station application, out of every one of the 10 applications all competing for 96.7 is the only local station to deliver local news every hour, every day around the clock.  We have walked the talk on it.  Ruth Corley's(ph) letter in my intervention to Scott Jackson and the November 15th response says:  We did it with those resources then, we can do it now.  Twice daily death notices coming back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16194             The only local voice that any Peterborough station or City of Kawartha Lakes station could ever have.  We are the ones doing it, because that is what radio is all about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16195             A chimpanzee, he can be trained to press "Play" on a CD player.  What makes a radio station a winner is localization.  When they are spinning songs, 60 per cent of them are American or British or otherwise.  When we are playing talk programs, only ‑‑ what is it, 49 per cent of them are American.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16196             Hey, we believe in predominantly Canadian, which we certainly are, meeting the full objectives of the religious broadcasting policy, and out of that Canadian we are predominantly local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16197             Why?  Because it works.  The more you can resonate with your community, the better.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16198             So let's remember, Peterborough, a 75,000‑person city, seven licences; City of Kawartha Lakes, 75,000‑person city, one licence.  What's there?  What does the Broadcasting Act make of all that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16199             We need to make sure that there is a diverse voice.  I know that phrase is used ad infinitum, but boy oh boy, you don't get much more diverse or distinct than this format relative to any of the other nine before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16200             That being the case, you know that there is a hunger for local news, because that's why we build a 24 per cent share of hours tuned on an AM with an inferior signal and the big monster FM signals today still don't turn a 24 per cent share of hours tuned in either Peterborough or Lindsay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16201             What are they doing wrong?  They don't know how to localize.  We do.  We have walked the talk.  Let's bring it back because people appreciate it.  You have heard from the people in their interventions, let's bring it all back because we have a great opportunity now to provide a fulfilment of the religious broadcasting police and this opportunity will be gone if you don't licence us, FM 96.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16202             I can conclude quite simply with that and I thank you very much for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16203             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb, very much for your participation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16204             MR. McNABB:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16205             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now take a 15‑minute break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16206             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1111 / Suspension à 1111

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1130 / Reprise à 1130

LISTNUM 1 \l 16207             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 16 which is an application by Anderson Parish Media Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16208             The new station would operate on frequency 96.7, Channel 224A, with an effective radiated power of 3000 watts, nondirectional antenna, antenna height of 77.2 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16209             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Raymond McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16210             Mr. McMurray, you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16211             MR. McMURRAY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16212             Before I start, I want to ...

‑‑‑ Off microphone / Hors microphone

LISTNUM 1 \l 16213             MR. McMURRAY:  ... because I feel I have to so that we are all comfortable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16214             I am physically disabled.  I am actually deaf.  I fell out of a bucket truck from the 60‑foot level onto a concrete sidewalk in 2002, causing a lot of damage, most of which I have recovered from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16215             But there is one problem I have that I may never recover from, and that is I have no perception of distance and I have no perception of volume.  As I'm speaking to you now, I'm hearing myself.  My brain has told me that that's the level that I can hear at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16216             When you speak to me, you will be coming out of that speaker.  My brain switches and there is a delay.  I have no idea what is going on behind me, but if someone coughs my brain, if it is above the threshold of that speaker, will make an adjustment.  It shuts off the speaker and expects the fellow to cough again.  If that doesn't happen and the speaker is on or I am speaking, my brain will switch back.  It's a conscious/subconscious thing that the neurologists are working on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16217             I am a lot better than I used to be; I will never be perfect again.  I hide it well in social situations, but I don't think I can hide it here, otherwise I would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16218             Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff, I want to thank you very much for having me here today.  This application is very important to me and important to the City of Kawartha Lakes.  You have reviewed the application, so I will avoid, as much as possible, reciting the facts you already are aware of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16219             Since I'm being asked to briefly and clearly highlight what I consider to be the most important points of my application, let me briefly refer to the following points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16220             The City of Kawartha Lakes has one local radio station with 17.5 per cent market share.  A high 82.5 per cent out‑of‑market tuning problem exists in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  There is no local radio choice or program diversity except out‑of‑market tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16221             Emerging artists and Canadian content.  FACTOR is okay, but so is local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16222             Demographic shift is towards the City of Kawartha Lakes as a retirement community.  Who are these 45‑plus people moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes?  96.7 is the best frequency for the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16223             New‑FM will not be competing with the current licensee which programs to a younger demographic with its larger, more regional signal in the Kawartha Lakes area, including Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16224             New‑FM will help grow the City of Kawartha Lakes local radio market which now tunes to out‑of‑market stations.  Unfortunately, 82.5 per cent of the radio listening residents prefer an out‑of‑market radio station because one local station simply cannot serve both the young and the older demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16225             The current licensee programs successfully to a younger audience with their BOB FM format.  New‑FM will program successfully to the older demographic.  Half of the city's population is 45‑plus.  They are under served in the City of Kawartha Lakes and they are New‑FM's target demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16226             The proposed new radio station will repatriate listeners back to local radio by presenting timely, relevant community‑centred local news and information that is important to our community's older residents, our 17.5 hours per broadcast week of newscasts, made up of 80 per cent local and regional content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16227             This point alone will help provide relief from the isolation many older residents feel when denied news of local events.  As we speak here today, over 50‑plus people get their local news at any one of the six Tim Hortons locations in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  That is a reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16228             To further repatriate the process, New‑FM will introduce an easy listening, middle‑of‑the‑road format which consists of musical styles that are currently getting little radio exposure in the area.  The mix is soft in nature, which a minimum 80/20 vocal/instrumental mix.  However, 75 per cent of the hours during the broadcast week will have a 55/45 per cent vocal/instrumental mix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16229             This format was researched and tested in the marketplace and has proven to be the format most likely to repatriate the older radio listener to the local market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16230             Emerging artists will contribute to variety and programming diversity on this easy listening station.  Emerging artists are plentiful, but few have had the hits most radio stations look for.  Since we are not hit‑oriented radio, our easy listening format can present unknown and lesser known artists without a negative response from listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16231             With a minimum of 20 per cent of our Canadian content being provided by emerging artists, plus the addition of international emerging artists, we can achieve a high level of programming diversity and variety that our format must present to avoid a high level of music repetition and avoid sounding like an oldies station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16232             Beyond airplay, we will have all emerging artist CDs we program available for sale.  We have a budget of $500 each year 1 through 5, and $1,000 each year 6 and 7, to purchase emerging artist CDs for resale at the station.  We will promote the availability of these CDs on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16233             FACTOR and MUSICACTION is a great national program and we are happy to help.  Our CCD commitment, as outlined in our application, is $2,500 each year 1 to 5, and $3,000 each year 6 and 7.  The breakdown is 20 per cent to FACTOR or MUSICACTION, which equals $900.  The balance of $1,600 will go to the Lindsay Concert Foundation, where each dollar is matched by the Ontario Arts Council, making it a total of $3,200, therefore doubling our investment towards our local emerging artists through a bursary program administered by the Foundation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16234             The key word here is "local".  Maybe, just maybe, we will be lucky enough to save a talented arts‑oriented individual from becoming just another "wannabe" NHL hockey player.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16235             The proposed new radio station will contribute to the success and the growth of local businesses serving older residents.  These businesses must have a vehicle to reach their perspective customers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16236             Because the older demographic is currently under served by media, promoting to the older demographic is difficult, ineffective and unaffordable without media that targets this demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16237             It is important to emphasize that the proposed new radio station will target only the older residents of the city and the businesses that wish to serve them.  Because of the demographic shift towards the City of Kawartha Lakes as an attractive retirement community, builders have opened six subdivisions, building and quickly selling homes to new 50‑plus persons moving to the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16238             New local businesses catering to this demographic are moving here as well.  This trend will continue and the baby‑boomers discover the Kawartha Lakes area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16239             Who are these 45‑plus people moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16240             They are affluent people with high disposable income.  This income is a regular payment each month without having to go out the door each morning to earn it.  The basic new homes they buy are expensive to begin with, and then the new residents add an average $35,000 in upgrades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16241             They spend more money furnishing these homes than the average local would.  They spend money servicing these homes by hiring services such as lawn care, snow removal, painting, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16242             They are people with a lot of time available to do what they want when they want to do it.  They have dinner out a lot and they spend more money doing it than the local people do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16243             In the last two years four new businesses have opened and are successful looking after these people's fingernails.  This sort of thing was absolutely unheard of a few years ago.  They are people who expect more from the businesses they deal with, such as retailers, restaurants and services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16244             Shopper's Drug Mart and Pharmasave have built four huge stores in Lindsay alone, each with large amounts of floor space devoted to luxury items never before available in the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16245             They are people who have changed the way things are done in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  For instance, all the new car showrooms have been upgraded or replaced.  The Loblaws store is so large you expect to see people on roller skates stocking the shelves, and you do.  The products and services they provide must be considered upscale, to say the least.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16246             In the expansive fresh fish department, the variety, the quantity and the quality of the products that they sell every day was not available just a few years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16247             These people brought their GTA lifestyle with them.  They must be catered to.  Local businesses are adjusting.  New‑FM targeting this demographic can help.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16248             I could go on and on, but you know, you should have the idea by now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16249             96.7 is the best frequency for the City of Kawartha Lakes.  The city covers an area of 3,059 square kilometres, with a population of 74,561.  That is from the Census 2006.  There is no licensed AM station and one licensed FM station.  This FM station also covers and markets in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16250             The City of Peterborough covers an area of 58.4 square kilometres with a population of 74,878.  With a population of only 317 more people, Peterborough has one AM and nine FM stations serving it, if you are into the CBC stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16251             Does Peterborough really need another radio station?  We're not sure.  But we are sure that the City of Kawartha Lakes does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16252             The Peterborough AM station, which is currently successful in the entire Kawartha Lakes are on AM 980, wishes to convert to the FM band, as well as expand its coverage area using 96.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16253             Anderson Parish Media is sympathetic towards the AM to FM conversion only and would suggest that using an alternate frequency should be explored once again by Corus.  An alternate frequency could very well allow Corus to convert from AM to FM without erosion to its current marketing area.  The City of Kawartha Lakes could then use 96.7 for a clear, interference‑free signal within its borders for a second station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16254             I wish to be upfront with the Panel, and in the interest of fairness to all the other applicants at this hearing I should tell you that I retained Elder Engineering to review other possible frequencies for the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16255             It should be possible for New‑FM to cover the City of Kawartha Lakes with alternate frequencies using a repeater.  A two‑transmitter arrangement would be an inconvenience, however this inconvenience will not outweigh the importance of covering the entire city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16256             I feel it is in the public interest to licence New‑FM to serve the under served 50‑plus radio listener in the City of Kawartha Lakes.

I thank you for your time today and I appreciate this opportunity to speak with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16257             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McMurray.  Please do let me know if I need to adjust the volume when I am speaking in order to enable you to hear me more clearly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16258             MR. McMURRAY:  Thank you.  I read your lips, so I can get away with a lot here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16259             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good, because I need to look down at my notes every once in a while.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16260             MR. McMURRAY:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16261             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm going to speak firstly about your format.  We know, based on your oral presentation this morning that you are targeting a 50‑plus demographic.  Do you have a core audience within that 50‑plus that you are specifically targeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16262             The other part of that question is:  What is the median of your average listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16263             MR. McMURRAY:  The core audience is actually 55‑plus and probably the medium age will be 55‑plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16264             Our format will leak down to the 45‑plus group of people.  Keep in mind that every year they get closer to our medium.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is a challenge in targeting an older demographic when it comes to advertisers.  We hear this repeated at both television and radio hearings, that while they have a disposable income, while they are mobile, that target group, advertisers just haven't bought in yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16266             Do you have evidence that counters that argument?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16267             MR. McMURRAY:  What I did was, I hired Tudman(ph) Research from Pembroke and I asked him to do a survey of businesses in the City of Kawartha Lakes and also do a survey of residents in Kawartha Lakes to tell me what the best format might be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16268             The results show that they are pretty well getting everything they want from a radio station other than Lindsay.  That's why we have the 82.5 per cent out‑of‑market tuning.  Actually, most people are quite happy with that, believe it or not.  They also have music on cable and then there is satellite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16269             The results of that survey showed that to introduce an easy listening station would be the best bet to reduce the amount of out‑of‑market tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16270             What I also did was, we made up 100 cassettes of what easy listening music is all about and we distributed them, some of them at Tim Hortons.  We got the name of the people, they listened to the cassettes.  Some of them, we had to buy them cassette machines.  The review was that they liked the music.  Of course, they wouldn't know what the package was, it was just music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16271             It seemed to me that the overall perception of the cassette was, it wasn't noisy.  So I felt quite comfortable proceeding with this application as a result of the survey and the distribution of those cassettes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16272             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But because radio is much more dependent on retail advertising than national advertising, are there businesses in the Kawartha Lakes area that ‑‑ or are there enough businesses on the retail side in the Kawartha Lakes area that target an older demographic and are these advertisers willing to advertise on this station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16273             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, there are and yes, they will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16274             Businesses in the City of Kawartha Lakes are going through a major change, adjusting to the changing demographic and what comes along with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16275             The people moving into the City of Kawartha Lakes are quite demanding.  The people that will continue to move into the City of Kawartha Lakes will be of the same age group because, one, the City of Kawartha Lakes lacks jobs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16276             The City of Kawartha Lakes is not an industrial area.  People who are younger and either work in Oshawa or they work in Peterborough.  A number of Lindsay businesses have actually moved to Peterborough because Peterborough is a better facility for industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16277             The fact of the matter is, and the City of Kawartha Lakes Council and business people have to realize, that people 50 plus the Kawartha Lakes new industry and they must provide the services that those people require.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16278             Many businesses have recognized that already and are doing their best to turn around.  Many businesses from Peterborough and from Oshawa have relocated a branch in the City of Kawartha Lakes to cater to all these new people.  Wal‑Mart is coming, Shoppers Drug Mart, beautiful store, I mean it is 10,000 square feet.  I mean, you know, we used to play hockey in places like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16279             So I feel very very confident that, as time goes on in the City of Kawartha Lakes, the existing businesses will get on board and new businesses will come to service these people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16280             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And on that note, in terms of your revenues, you say that 50 per cent of your revenues will come from other media.  What do you include in that line item of "other media?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 16281             MR. McMURRAY:  The City of Kawartha Lakes at one time, until recently, had a daily newspaper and that daily newspaper was owned by the Peterborough Examiner.  And they discovered that, really, as far as they are concerned they were going to merge the City of Kawartha Lakes with Peterborough and they will reinvent the Peterborough Examiner to cover both areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16282             In the interim, they have left a huge void for advertisers.  The amount of flyers we get each week in the other newspaper, the one that is owned by Torstar I believe, is like an inch thick every Friday.  The businesses don't have many options.  The options that they do have do not target the 50 plus group of people very well, therefore a lot of their advertising dollar is wasted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16283             The void left by Lindsay this week will be very very helpful to NEW‑FM.  If we can encourage people to try NEW‑FM, I think we can discourage them from using flyers as much as they do.  Flyers are effective, however, they don't target and so they are costly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16284             BOB‑FM is doing quite well with the younger audience and I expect there will be a little bit of overlap, but not much.  As a matter of fact, if someone selling skateboards came to my radio station and wanted to run ads, I would suggest to them that there may be other avenues for them.  I would take their money if they insisted, but I would suggest that maybe they should go to BOB‑FM and maybe try the newspapers. Selling skateboards on my radio station wouldn't work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16285             However, if they are selling, believe it or not, baby clothes, two new baby clothes stores have opened in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  Can't imagine this, because the locals only deal with Zellers.  But who are the customers?  First of all, the baby clothes are upscale and the customers are the 50 plus buying all this stuff for their grandchildren.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16286             The advertisers on BOB‑FM would get the locals, but I believe that these two new baby clothes stores would be better off advertising on NEW‑FM because their target really is grandma and grandpa that is prepared to overspend for pyjamas.  More and more speciality stores like that are taking up shop in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  More and more restaurants, we have discovered, have tablecloths for instance.  It is a small thing, but obviously the market is demanding them to cater more to older people who have come to expect something a little bit better in the GTA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16287             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would say that it is a grandparent's job to spoil their grandchildren.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16288             MR. McMURRAY:  And they are doing it very well, by the way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16289             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And aunts, to spoil their nieces.  Anyway, I digress.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16290             One of the lines that is not included in terms of your sources of revenue is existing radio stations.  Is it your position that you will not have any negative impact on BOB‑FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16291             MR. McMURRAY:  I don't believe that NEW‑FM will have an impact on BOB‑FM that you could measure.  I can't imagine someone that listens to my station listening to them.  And I certainly can't imagine someone that listens to BOB‑FM bothering with us, we are just so different.  So I would say it would be minimal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16292             However, there may be some businesses that would continue advertising on BOB‑FM and come to us as well.  An example would be food stores and Canadian Tire.  Canadian Tire isn't going to give up the younger audience so that they can advertise with me, they want to get the whole population.  So I don't think BOB‑FM will hurt at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16293             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they would fall under the advertisers who would increase their advertising budget therefore ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16294             MR. McMURRAY:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16295             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ to enable them to advertise on both you and BOB‑FM?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16296             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, they will.  And there is also a saving because of the demise of the daily newspaper so, yes, they would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16297             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in terms of the blend of music that you are proposing, I understand soft in nature to appeal to that older demographic, and you are also including 20 per cent of your musical content will be instrumental music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16298             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16299             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you will ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16300             MR. McMURRAY:  Minimum of 20 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16301             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you accept that, therefore, as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16302             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, I will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16303             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16304             MR. McMURRAY:  And by the way, because I know you are going to ask me later, I neglected to submit to you the instrumentals that will be playing, when you asked for a copy of the playlist, and so I brought it along here today.  You will notice the playlist you have up there, there is no instrumentals, so where is Mr. McMurray getting this 50 per cent?  Well here, this is the preliminary instrumental list and I will give it to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16305             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I can see it is quite a thick deck, so I am sure you won't have any trouble meeting that 20 per cent therefore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16306             MR. McMURRAY:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16307             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16308             Now, BOB‑FM isn't your only competition.  Today, as well in your oral presentation, you said that in the Kawartha Lakes area 85 per cent of listeners listen to out‑of‑market radio stations, which is a huge percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16309             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is going to be so compelling about NEW‑FM to enable it to repatriate this large percentage of out‑of‑market tuning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16311             MR. McMURRAY:  NEW‑FM will have local newscasts every half hour.  NEW‑FM's local newscasts will be 80 per cent of the total news package.  People in the City of Kawartha Lakes have a lot of trouble finding out what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  BOB‑FM has a problem in telling them, because once this BOB‑FM is trying to market to Peterborough, as well as Lindsay, they have to maintain a pretty good balance otherwise they will turnoff the Peterborough market to turn on the Lindsay market and vice versa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16312             We intend to broadcast news items to the people 45 plus.  Any item that will affect them I consider news, and so we will be in the face of the City of Kawartha Lakes Council, community care, all the charitable groups and so on and so forth to get the volume of news that we need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16313             Older people are sensitive to what is going on around them more than younger people. Our survey determined that young people couldn't care less what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  They have got other things on their minds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16314             An example would be if a senior citizen was jaywalking on the main street of Lindsay and was hit by a car and, coincidentally, World War III started the same day, we would have a problem with the lead story.  An older person wouldn't, they want to know what is going on with the person that was hit on the main street and we had better tell them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16315             When you try to say go strictly with BM and run that route, all you are doing is alienating the local listener.  Why?  Because they can turn on CHEX‑TV, which does a great job in covering the entire Kawartha Lakes region.  Although, they are hampered by the fact that they have to have a picture with every story and it takes them time to do that.  Radio can be right there like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16316             NEW‑FM will cover a lot of the things that most people would consider boring, not newsworthy and, quite frankly, not very sensational.  But in order to maintain the listenership that we want, we have to cover those stories.  An example, there was a story that came out of a meeting that I believe community care had a couple of weeks ago, talking about affordable housing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16317             I mean, it is pretty dry stuff and you can't fluff it up, I mean, it is just, you know.  So why would you bother if you are trying to cater to a younger audience?  You wouldn't.  Do you think a senior citizen on a pension isn't interested in affordable housing?  You bet they are.  And so we would go into great detail.  We would look at that story from a number of different angles, we would milk it to death.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16318             Why do we have news every half our?  Well, you know, as you get older, you become quite forgetful.  In my view, we are going to keep on reminding people of what is going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  They are going to forget half of it and I know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16319             So what maybe repetitious to us will not be repetitious to them. As the story unfolds, we will provide more detail and different angles and all that sort of thing.  But what we are trying to do is inform the senior citizens, people over 45, and the only way we can do that is through repetition, but we can't bore them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So not surprisingly, it is the localness of your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16321             MR. McMURRAY:  Absolutely the localness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16322             In my view ‑‑ I went to Canadian Tire and to RadioShack and they have sold a lot of satellite radio tuners.  These things, you glue them to the windshield and they have got wires coming down, you plug them into the cigarette lighter, all this jazz.  It is actually work to make these things work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16323             However, if you are working and you are commuting an hour and a half to your work everyday, these things make perfect sense, in my view.  When I drove up from Lindsay I had my satellite radio on.  I have XM and Sirius, just got to know what these guys are doing.  You know, that three‑hour trip is as good as a half hour.  I mean, I can listen to CNN, I can listen to any genre I want.  I am not going to get bored, it is fabulous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16324             But for older people, I don't believe they will do it, no.  Maybe when they buy their new car and the satellite radio comes with it, you know, already in the radio, no wires all over the place and all that stuff.  It may be a different story down the road, but right now it is too much trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16325             Most people over 45, definitely over 50, get their news in our area from CHEX and from Global News.  They want to know what is going on.  But Global News and CHEX can't cover everything and they definitely will not cover areas that are overly uneventful and that is just the way it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16326             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to get into the details of the numbers as they relate to your spoken word programming, because in your application you are proposing a total of 19 hours of spoken word of which 17.5 are news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16327             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16328             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does this 17.5 hours include surveillance material or is that just pure news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16329             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, it does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16330             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It does include surveillance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16331             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, it does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16332             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How much of the 17.5 is surveillance and, therefore, how much is just pure news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16333             MR. McMURRAY:  I would say surveillance ‑‑ we don't have any traffic in the City of Kawartha Lakes, by the way ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16334             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Lucky you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16335             MR. McMURRAY:  ‑‑ no helicopters, none of that jazz.  So our surveillance is a little on the light side.  And even sports, senior citizens, you know, just tell them a few things.  They want to know more about their grandchildren playing on the minor hockey team.  That is sports for me, it is not what the Leafs are doing.  But the weather is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16336             So the amount of surveillance is actually quite small, if it was 10 per cent, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16337             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so let us go through the other categories.  What about sports and coverage of community events and so on?  What percentage would that be of the 17.5 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16338             MR. McMURRAY:  The coverage of community events I would consider real news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16339             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16340             MR. McMURRAY:  So it is part of the 90 per cent.  In order to have two newscasts we have to cover a lot of the things going on in the community that maybe a larger more regional station wouldn't, to consider it news.  Remember my criteria, if it affects somebody over 45 it is news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what makes up the balance, therefore, to get to 19 hours?  If it is 17.5 hours of news and information, including surveillance, and your application says that there is a total of 19 hours of spoken word ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16342             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16343             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ what makes up the balance of the 1.5 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16344             MR. McMURRAY:  The balance of spoken word programming would also include local coverage of municipal meetings.  They go on forever, right?  You know, you condense it down, but it will include the local coverage of the municipal meetings.  Farm reports, press conferences held by non‑profit organizations and local church broadcasts on Sunday mornings.  But that is one‑hour program each Sunday morning, if they want it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16345             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is part of the 19 hours total?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16346             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16348             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, it is.  And memorial notices as well.  Now, we hope that we won't lose too many of these people over 45, however, when we do we have to announce it to the local community.  It is something that CHUM dropped and it caused a lot of problems in our community.  Older people suffer from a lot of ailments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16349             One of the ailments is losing their friends, the older you get the more friends you are going to lose, that is just the way it is. So the least you can do for them is tell them who is coming and who is going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16350             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So birth and death notices?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16351             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16352             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What are these local church broadcasts for an hour a week? Is it a Sunday service that will be broadcast on the radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16353             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.  Before my application, I went to all the churches and asked them about returning to the air and how they felt. Only one church committed to doing it.  The other churches were so angry at being cut off abruptly and rudely by BOB‑FM that they didn't even want to talk about it.  They said, basically, come back if you get the licence and maybe we will deal with this, maybe we won't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16354             A lot of them, what they do, is distribute the service now by cassette to fill the void.  The only thing we would be doing is broadcasting the actual church service.  They will just be buying the time and they have to fill it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16355             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And there will be no other religious‑like programming on this service?  That would be the only spot where religion will be broadcast?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16356             MR. McMURRAY:  The only spot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16357             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I mean, it is laudable, your commitment to spoken word programming, but when I look at your staffing plans you, I think, have projected that you will require only two people to produce this amount of news.  That is a lot of work for two people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16358             MR. McMURRAY:  The two people that you are referring to will be the two people that will be responsible to me for providing local news.  We will have a lot of stringers and a lot of people reporting the news to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16359             The two people that I am referring to in my application will be sorting all this stuff out.  Because a lot of the groups in the City of Kawartha Lakes that cater to people 50 plus are hungry to get their messages out, and we have to sort through it all and those people will do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16360             In the areas of municipal government and provincial government with our MP and MPP, our two people will be dealing with them directly.  Most of the local news on NEW‑FM will come from the community and be given to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16361             Now, we will know where to search, we will know who to call.  I mean, you have got to be very careful with this, because you have to get people who, when you call, give you the facts, they are not making up stories and so on and so forth and there is some discipline here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16362             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have the response to the deficiency question here with your letter dated September 24, question 6, wherein you do provide some more detail as far as your full staffing compliment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16363             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16364             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just to make things easier for us, what is your fulltime equivalent headcount for the station?  I see you have four freelance voice personalities from the community.  So you will have the two staff dedicated to news gathering, the editorial content of the news programming will be the responsibility of the senior member of the newsroom staff.  Is that a third person, the senior member?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16365             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16366             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Production department will have a staff person responsible for preparing audio news clips, recording interviews and general newsroom reporting ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16367             MR. McMURRAY:  That is a fulltime person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16368             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that is the fourth fulltime person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16369             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16370             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the continuity department will have a staff person, that is five ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16371             MR. McMURRAY:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16372             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ for commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16373             MR. McMURRAY:  M'hmm.  I am six.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16374             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are six.  And the four freelance voice personalities from the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16375             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.  Now, a fulltime job for somebody over 50 or 55 years old in our community might be 20 hours or 25 hours, in which case we have to bring in an extra person.  We have to sort this out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16376             When I did the survey people came alive in the City of Kawartha Lakes and I got a number of calls, actually over four dozen, about working at NEW‑FM and providing, you know, a variety of services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16377             The City of Kawartha Lakes is actually an old broadcaster's home.  A lot of them have actually moved to the area.  It is close to Toronto and what they are used to, yet it is far enough away to be away from what they don't like about it anymore.  So a number of those people have talked to me.  You know, whether I can afford them, we haven't talked about that.  But, boy, I would love to have them, because some of them are pretty good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16378             Generally speaking though, I would say that our staffing would be in the area of 7 or so.  And I expect, because of our format, we are going to have trouble maintaining younger people. When I was a young broadcaster and full of the energy that Andy McNabb seems to have, I would not even consider an easy‑listening radio station, I mean, boring stuff.  But now that I am a little older, funny how things have changed.  I don't consider most of what goes on at a radio station for older people as boring anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16379             I have a very different view of what goes on at a younger person's station, though.  I wouldn't work there, where at one time that's the only place I would work at, like if you are a newsperson you want real news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16380             So I can see someone working for me for six months because we will do that.  You know, we will bring in Ryerson students and whatnot because they have got to start somewhere.  I can't imagine them staying with me more than six months.  They would be pretty hearty if they did.  But that's okay.  We can have two of them a year, can't we?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16381             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in terms of the orientation of your news, because your signal will also ‑‑ if you are awarded the frequency for which you have applied, because it will reach the Peterborough market will your local news also include stories about Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16382             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.  We will have regional news if it affects the residents of the City of Kawartha Lakes.  We will not be airing news about Peterborough that affects Peterborough residents.  We will not ‑‑ we have no interest in, for instance, what's going on at the Peterborough Council or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16383             If there was a spectacular accident or something in Peterborough we might air that, and we definitely would if it involved Lindsay residents which take a lot of time going to Peterborough to shop, by the way.  Some of them are going to have an accident while they are over there.  So I ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16384             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's hope not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16385             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16386             I would say, generally speaking, we have zero interest in Peterborough.  As a matter of fact, Peterborough for us is a bit of a disease.  BOB‑FM, because they program to Peterborough and have a lot of Peterborough ads, we find that hurtful in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  If you ever go to Wal‑Mart ‑‑ now, we are going to get our own Wal‑Mart, but if you ever go to Wal‑Mart it's like every aisle there is somebody you will see from Lindsay or Bobcaygeon or Fenelon Falls because we don't have it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16387             BOB‑FM has actually been very smart about what they do because they have a lot of advertisers on BOB‑FM that can cater to the Lindsay market, because the Lindsay market hasn't figured out that the people in the City of Kawartha Lakes want a lot of new stuff that's available.  But we are working on it real fast.  A lot of new stores are moving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16388             So I was rather interested in hearing yesterday when they were talking about retail sales in Peterborough, how high it is and how much higher it's going to be.  Actually, it's not going to get higher.  Well, it may get higher but not by as much as they think because the Lindsay folks will not be going to Peterborough to shop as much as they have in the past because they will have the facilities in the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16389             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if I am hearing you correctly, you have applied for 96.7 because it covers the City of Kawartha the best, even though your service is intended to serve the City of Kawartha Lakes residents only?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16390             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes.  We do not want to go beyond the borders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16391             If we tried to do that, we would be in the same predicament that BOB‑FM is in, which is just who is our listener?  How do we serve them both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16392             BOB‑FM, they made a decision to be very regional and less City of Kawartha Lakes.  Why?  Because what's going on in the City of Kawartha Lakes is more boring than what's going on in Peterborough, and also Peterborough have more youth.  So I'm not going to fall into that trap and I think BOB‑FM is slowly emerging out of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16393             We want to stay within the City of Kawartha Lakes.  We want to cover all of the City of Kawartha Lakes because if you don't we will get ‑‑ it will be a problem for us because of people and the waterfront properties down in the valleys and sort of constantly badgering us to increase power, do whatever, because they want to know what's going on too and if they don't ‑‑ if they can't find out what's going on, since nobody else was going to be telling them except local radio, well, I guess they will be back to see you to make sure that we can cover the City of Kawartha Lakes if we have to take an alternate frequency that doesn't cover the City of Kawartha Lakes.  An example is a repeater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16394             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And you talked about that in your oral presentation earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16395             But I will ask you the question that I have asked all applicants, and that is would you accept a licence ‑‑ an authorization that says that your application is approved in part if we were to decide to award 96.7 to another applicant and, you know, came out and said, "Yes, we love your idea.  We think it's terrific, serves the City of Kawartha Lakes, but you need to go out and find another frequency."

LISTNUM 1 \l 16396             Would you accept that decision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16397             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, I would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16398             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16399             You are one of the few applicants who seem to have a secret, and that is how to become profitable right from year one.  Do you want to share that secret with us?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16400             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, I will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16401             First of all, I lived there.  I have lived there for 35 years or so, and I know the market very, very well.  I know the frustrations of the businesses.  I know the area inside and out.  I have worked in radio.  I have worked in cable television.  I know the score in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  It is so underserved in so many ways.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16402             I think that businesses and the people of the City of Kawartha Lakes will be so appreciative of our local program that I will have no trouble in getting the amount of advertising needed to make NEW‑FM successful.  If you take a look at our financials you will see that I am profitable by $33,000 in year one and by $175,000 in year seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16403             I think the worst thing that can happen to me is that I'm not profitable by those numbers; I'm just profitable by 10 percent of gross sales.  That's the worst that can happen, I feel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16404             I feel so confident because of what I feel will be the growth of the demographic in my area, that I am ploughing ahead with this.  And there is some risk you know at my age putting the money in.  You know, I could be one of those senior citizens that just wants to listen but I see the need and I'm prepared to fulfil the need, and I have absolutely no qualms that I will be successful; none, zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16405             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was your business plan predicated on no other service being licensed in Peterborough?  Because of this frequency issue, if you were able to find a frequency that served only Kawartha Lakes and leaving us free to licence something else on the 96.7 frequency, would the licensing of something else in Peterborough have any impact on your ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16406             MR. McMURRAY:  In Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16407             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In Peterborough, have any impact on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16408             MR. McMURRAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16409             THE CHAIRPERSON:  None at all?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16410             MR. McMURRAY:  My format is so different and so unique for the City of Kawartha Lakes I'm not even afraid of BOB‑FM.  They can't do anything to me and they have the power.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16411             For instance, if they started ‑‑ if they lowered their rates for stores that sell to the people over 45 plus, all they would be doing is hurting themselves because they wouldn't have any repeat business; because once I get on the air that group of people will not have to use BOB‑FM unless they want to cater to a younger group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16412             So I feel very secure and they should feel very secure with me.  As a matter of fact, I would say BOB ‑‑ I am the guy that BOB‑FM ‑‑ why they would ever intervene is beyond me.  I'm the guy they should just love.  I'm an old guy wanting to serve old folks and they are a giant that wants to serve young folks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16413             Imagine if I didn't do it and somebody else came in, and they did do it?  Remember, you do not regulate the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16414             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16415             MR. McMURRAY:  So let's say you brought somebody else in on whatever and they decided to compete with BOB‑FM, let's say, with country because Globemedia owned the country station in Peterborough that does well in City of Kawartha Lakes, by the way ‑‑ they could switch and they could compete with BOB‑FM.  I will never do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16416             This is the only format I'm interested ‑‑ I would rather just turn it off, quite frankly, than get into the hassle of fighting BOB‑FM with, say, you know, adult contemporary or something because you know what?  They could win so easily.  All they have to do is reduce their rates by, what, 10 percent; 15 percent, go out offer deals and this, that and the other thing.  They could just ‑‑ all they do is sit back and wait for me to run out of money.  I'm not going to do that, no.  This is the only format that will work in the City of Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16417             However, if another person wanted to come in and let's say, for instance, you gave them 96.7, since you already talked about Peterborough you are not going to allow them to be a Peterborough station as well, I would feel okay because I don't think they would be stupid enough trying to compete with me for the old folks.  I think what they would do is try and compete with BOB.  That's their problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16418             So what would the answer be to that question?  It doesn't matter to me who you issue your licence to in addition to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16419             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That, I think, is obvious.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16420             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am just going to read to you two statements that concern CCD and just ask you to please confirm your understanding, and then I will ask my colleagues if they have any further questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16421             Please confirm your understanding that if licensed your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by condition of licence until the regulations are amended, based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new radio policy, Public Notice CRTC 2006‑158.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16422             MR. McMURRAY:  I would confirm that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16423             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please confirm your understanding that of this base annual amount, no less than 60 percent of the station's basic annual CCD contribution must be allocated to either FACTOR or MusicAction and the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiatives at your discretion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16424             MR. McMURRAY:  I would confirm that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16425             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16426             MR. McMURRAY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16427             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My colleagues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16428             Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16429             MR. McMURRAY:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16430             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I just wanted to ask, if the other ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 16431             MR. McMURRAY:  Could they ‑‑ oh, I guess I can do it.  You have a lighter voice.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16432             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Is this okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16433             MR. McMURRAY:  Try me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16434             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16435             If the other licensee licensed for Kawartha Lake were a religious service like Mr. McNabb's, would that affect your plans to offer local church broadcasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16436             MR. McMURRAY:  Here is the question.  He is really listening for the answer to this, I know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16437             If he didn't change his format it wouldn't matter to me at all.  However, since you don't regulate that and he found that it wasn't successful and did change his format, it wouldn't matter at all, quite frankly.  As long as he didn't try and target the older audience I couldn't care less.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16438             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  So your answer, if a religious station were licensed for Kawartha Lakes you would still offer your local church broadcasts or you would not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16439             MR. McMURRAY:  I would offer it.  They don't have to accept it.  For me it's just time.  I just fill the time with something else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16440             And I can appreciate why they might want to be on a religious station.  For them radio is radio is radio, and that will be fine with me.  I would just put commercials in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16441             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And if that came to be, would the licensing of a religious station for Kawartha Lakes affect your business plans?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16442             MR. McMURRAY:  Well, he said he is not going to sell commercials so I would say as a religious station it wouldn't affect me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16443             So the answer to your question is, no, it will not affect me, I don't believe.  I'm okay with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16444             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  I believe that the not selling commercials is for Peterborough, but I believe that there would be no prohibition against selling commercials in Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16445             MR. McMURRAY:  Well, I have more money than he has.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16446             MR. McMURRAY:  So I'm not going to run out.  I don't know about his American friend.  He probably has a lot of money too, doesn't he?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16447             I guess the question is, as we compete who is going to run out of money first.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16448             MR. McMURRAY:  And you know something?  It's not going to be me.  So I would say I don't care what he does.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 16449             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16450             MR. McMURRAY:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16451             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16452             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16453             MS SMITH:  Thank you, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16454             I just have one question for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16455             MR. McMURRAY:  I have to ‑‑ okay, m'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16456             MS SMITH:  I just have one question for you.  I was wondering if you could please provide us with a copy of your instrumental music playlist for the record?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16457             MR. McMURRAY:  Yes, I will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16458             MS SMITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16459             MR. McMURRAY:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16460             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McMurray, this is the point where you have two minutes to give us your best pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16461             MR. McMURRAY:  Okay, which I wrote out last night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16462             I ask that you licence Easy FM to serve the underserved in the City of Kawartha Lakes.  The 45‑plus group of people need a voice in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16463             I am from the City of Kawartha Lakes and I know that 36,261 people, 45‑plus neighbours of mine, have been denied the local programming they want because the current local station decided to program to a younger audience.  I appreciate why CHUM did what they did.  It became clear to them that they could not please two very different demographics.  CHUM made the right decision for them.  I have made the right decision for NEW‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16464             NEW‑FM will serve the older radio listener.  NEW‑FM will sell advertising only to businesses wanting to reach the older residents.  Trying to sell advertising to any other business would not create a friendly relationship that would be renewed on a regular basis.  You need repeat business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16465             The new 45‑plus radio listener moving to the City of Kawartha Lakes are providing the growth needed to pay for my radio station.  We talked earlier about the growth of retail sales in Peterborough.  City of Kawartha Lakes residents have contributed to that growth in the recent past.  However, now many of Peterborough's stores have also opened or will open soon in the City of Kawartha Lakes; Wal‑Mart, Home Depot, Mark's Work Wearhouse, Sobeys, Sears, just to name a few.  The times they are a changing and it's time for Easy FM in the City of Kawartha Lakes and I thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16466             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16467             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16468             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16469             This completes Phase I.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16470             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16471             And we will now break for lunch and be back at 2:00 o'clock.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1235 / Suspension à 1235

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1405 / Reprise à 1405

LISTNUM 1 \l 16472             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The delay is because one of the applicants has indicated that they will appear in Phase II and we are just looking for him.  So just give us a couple of minutes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1406/ Suspension à 1406

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1410 / Reprise à 1410

LISTNUM 1 \l 16473             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16474             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16475             For the record, Anderson Parish Media has filed in response to undertakings a sample instrumental list of musical selection.  This document has been added to the public record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16476             We have now reached Phase II in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.; for the record 591989 B.C. Limited, Newcap Inc., Larche Communication Inc., Pineridge Broadcasting Inc., K‑Rock 1057 Inc., Evanov Communications Inc., Acadia Broadcasting Limited, Frank Torres on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated and Anderson Parish Media Inc. have indicated that they would not appear in Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16477             I would now call Mr. McNabb to come forward to the presentation table if he wishes to participate in this phase.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16478             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. McNabb, you have 10 minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16479             MR. McNABB:  This will be refreshingly brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16480             Commissioners, taking a look at the state of radio in Peterborough versus the City of Kawartha Lakes, when you take a look at the total hours tuned to radio in Ontario, the adults 18 plus tune an average of 19.72 hours.  That's right out of the Survey Four that was published just last week.  In Peterborough County people are tuning 20.71 hours to radio.  So they are tuning above the Ontario average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16481             So what I'm trying to say here is that the state of radio in Peterborough is very good.  And even though there is no doubt in my mind that there would be room for another radio station in Peterborough due to the very large seven‑figure margins that Corus and CHUM are turning together with their four radio stations, it just gives one more argument in my mind as to why Peterborough should be looked at as a secondary or even a tertiary consideration before the City of Kawartha Lakes that only has that one licence for the 75,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16482             Because right now you have got the Peterborough station with CHUM's 105.1 CKQM, Country 105, and you have Corus' 101.5 CKWF The Wolf, all covering the City of Kawartha Lakes quite well, very actively selling in the market.  And all we need and I say this obviously tongue in cheek, is yet another monster signal coming out of Peterborough where they are not servicing the people in the City of Kawartha Lakes but they can come in and sell to it.  And this is why I really feel strongly that the City of Kawartha Lakes should be prioritized.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16483             And that is all I have to contribute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16484             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McNabb.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16485             MR. McNABB:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16486             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have made your position quite clear.  We don't have any questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16487             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16488             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16489             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16490             We will now proceed to Phase III in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.  However, for the record, the order set out in the agenda has been changed.  The group of intervenors in a panel have switched with the individual intervenor, the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16491             I would now call the CBC to come forward to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 16492             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourselves, and you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16493             MR. CARNOVALE:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16494             My name is Ray Carnovale and I am Vice‑President and Chief Technology Officer for CBC/Radio‑Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16495             With me today is Suzanne Lamarre, Senior Advisor in Strategy and Planning within my group; and Rob Scarth, CBC's Director of Regulatory Affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16496             We are not opposed to any of the applications currently before you in this proceeding.  If there is an opportunity to enhance the diversity of radio service in Peterborough or Kawartha Lakes that can only be a good thing for the people in these communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16497             Our issue is about ensuring that the people of Peterborough continue to be able to receive the CBC Radio One service, and that this proceeding not create the unintended result of turning what we hope is a temporary interference situation into a permanent one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16498             In our written intervention of November 15th we describe the interference to our Radio One service that resulted from the introduction of CKPT's new FM transmitter at 99.3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16499             When CKPT‑FM first went on the air in test mode on August 21st of this year its zone of interference to CBC Radio One covered a significant portion of the market.  We calculated at that time that there were 27,000 people in Peterborough who could no longer effectively receive CBC Radio One.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16500             We took audio samples of the interference at various locations around the city, and if you lived within the zone of interference this is what CBC Radio One would sound like to you:

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 1 \l 16501             MR. CARNOVALE:  This is clearly an unacceptable level of interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16502             From the outset we have been working with both CTVglobemedia and Industry Canada to resolve the matter.  At our urging, and subsequent to the filing of our written intervention, Industry Canada issued an order that CKPT‑FM's transmitter power be reduced to 1 kilowatt or 10 percent of its licence power in order to reduce the size of the zone of interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16503             CKPT‑FM has complied with the order.  The number of people now subject to interference is approximately 9,000.  To be clear, the problem is not yet resolved.  It has simply been reduced in size for a period of time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16504             It is also clear that the results of the on‑air test have shown that the use of the third adjacent frequency 99.3 to have been a mistake.  In its order to CTVglobemedia Industry Canada granted an extension to CKPT‑FM's on‑air test period to December 31st.  The unusually lengthy duration of this on‑air test period was granted by Industry Canada to provide CTVglobemedia with the opportunity to identify and apply for an alternate frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16505             In order to address the outstanding interference issue caused by CKPT's use of 99.3 it is our understanding that CTVglobemedia has now identified and applied for an alternate frequency, 99.7 MHz, or channel 259B with an effective radiated power of 11 kilowatts maximum, 3.7 kilowatts average, located at CKPT's existing site.  We believe this alternate frequency, if approved, will solve the interference problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16506             This situation and this proceeding are linked.  The solution of this situation is the adoption of an alternate frequency by CKPT.  We have no concern if the Commission approves one of the applications for 96.7 MHz.  We would be concerned, however, if the Commission approves in part any other applicants.  When it does approve in part an application, the CRTC typically provides successful applicants with another three months to identify and obtain technical approval on an alternate frequency.  Our concern is that if the Commission approves in part any of these applications, it could potentially derail CTVglobemedia's application for an alternate frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16507             Our request to the Commission is that in any decision it makes as a result of this proceeding, that it be sensitive to the fact that there is an outstanding situation still to be resolved and that its resolution will require the use of another FM frequency by CTVglobemedia in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16508             To that end, we would urge the Commission to deal expeditiously with the CTVglobemedia application for an alternate frequency in Peterborough, and that if the Commission approves an application out of this proceeding, that approval be only for the use of channel 244 or 96.7 MHz and that it not approve any applications in part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16509             In closing, we would like to say we were very appreciative of the Commission in its recent decision to defer its consideration of radio applications for Ottawa‑Gatineau.  This deferral will provide applicants with the opportunity to resubmit their technical parameters in order to address the potential for a third adjacent channel interference with our Espace musique service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16510             While the circumstances in this proceeding are different than the Ottawa‑Gatineau proceeding, the principle at stake is the same, and that is to ensure that the Commission's licensing decisions take into account the importance of protecting the integrity of coverage of broadcasters already providing service in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16511             We appreciate this opportunity to raise our concerns and we would be pleased to answer any questions you have.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16512             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Carnovale, and to your colleagues welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16513             I appreciate the audio sample.  It certainly gives us more of an appreciation of just how extensive the interference is.  So I do appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16514             Now, your oral presentation varies a little bit from your written intervention because of the CTVglobemedia situation and what has occurred since the time that you wrote your intervention and your appearance before us today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16515             So if I understand you correctly, what you are basically advising us is that we have to look at this holistically, but this is a question of timing in that if we grant approval for the use of 99.7 it is at that time that we should consider approving in part anything else for Peterborough?

LISTNUM 1 \l 16516             MR. CARNOVALE:  No, if I may, to quote a famous baseball coach, Yogi Berra used to say "It ain't over till it's over".  And while CTVglobemedia has identified what appears to be a suitable alternate frequency, that frequency is short spaced with three Canadian and one American station on adjacent or co‑channel frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16517             So there is still a lot of coordination that has to be done.  Industry Canada has yet to approve the technical brief.  The coordination, the international coordination with the FCC must be successful.  One would hope that there are no other broadcasters out there on co or adjacent channels who in fact might have plans for frequency augmentation that might cause them to want to oppose CTVglobemedia's application.