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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.








































HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)


September 21, 2007                    Le 21 septembre 2007









In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription












Konrad von Finckenstein           Chairperson / Président

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller Rita Cugini                                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Michel Morin                      Commissioner / Conseiller





Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Nick Ketchum                      Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Shari Fisher                      Legal Counsel /

Bernard Montigny                  Conseillers juridiques




HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)


September 21, 2007                Le 21 septembre 2007


- iv -




                                                 PAGE / PARA




Canadian Diversity Producers Association (CDPA) 1189 / 6643


Madga de la Torre, on behalf of a corporation

to be incorporated (OBCI)                       1197 / 6701


Aboriginal Peoples Television

Network Incorporated                            1233 / 6975


Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.                    1241 / 7024


National Campus and

Community Radio Association (NCRA / ANREC)      1274 / 7199


John Harris Stevenson (Pres. of CHUO‑FM)        1284 / 7255


L'Alliance des radios communautaires

du Canada (Arc du Canada)                       1326 / 7539


L'Association des radiodiffuseurs

communautaires du Québec (ARCQ)                 1338 / 7593


Association for Tele‑Education in Canada

and Saskatchewan Communications Network (SCN)   1381 / 7818


TimeScape Productions                           1402 / 7960


St. Andrews Community Channel Inc.              1415 / 8021


Friends of Canadian Broadcasting                1436 / 8155


The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada            1460 / 8273


David Skinner (Professor at York

with Robert Hackett ‑ Simon Fraser)             1475 / 8362


Michael Andrew Lithgow                          1485 / 8418


Women in Film and Television                    1509 / 8540


Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)PRIVATE

‑‑‑ L'audience commence le vendredi 21 septembre 2007

    à 0831 / Whereupon the hearing started at 0831

    on Friday, September 21, 2007

 LISTNUM  "WP List 3" \l 1 \s 6634 6634             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16635             I think we are ready.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16636             THE SECRETARY:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman.  Good morning everyone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16637             We will start this morning with a panel of interveners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16638             We have been informed that the ASP Productions intervener will not be appearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16639             In would now call on the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, Magda de la Torre on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, as well as the Committee to Commemorate and Memorialize the Abolition of the Slave Trades.  I understand this group may not be in the room.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16640             Therefore we will proceed with Mr. Paul De Silva for the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16641             If you could introduce your colleague and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16642             Thank you.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 16643             MR. DE SILVA:  Thank you, Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16644             Actually, it will be Ms Patricia Scarlett that will begin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16645             MME SCARLETT : Monsieur le Président, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers, bonjour.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16646             Je m'appelle Patricia Scarlett et je suis présidente du Scarlett Media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16647             I am also the Acting Chair of the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, the CDPA.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16648             Today, I am joined by my colleague Paul De Silva, a Gemini‑award winning independent producer, former Vice President of Programming at Vision Television, project director for Canada One Television and a founding member of the CDPA.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16649             The CDPA is a fledgling organization whose mandate is to represent the interest of visible minority and culturally diverse producers and related professionals in the film, television and new media industries.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16650             The CDPA was launched with the support of the Banff World Television Festival in 2005.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16651             We would like to register our pleasure of being able to appear before the Commission at these important hearings that will undoubtedly have a profound impact on our broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16652             As well, we are pleased to have the opportunity to express on behalf of our organization the issues that are of concern, particularly the issue of diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minority communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16653             We would like to note that there seems to be a multitude of meanings and definitions for the words 'diversity' and 'plurality'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16654             This not surprising given the fact that, as a society, we are all struggling to find appropriate language to define the rapidly changing demographics and media landscapes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16655             We noted with interest Richard Nielsen's comments regarding the evolving definition of diversity within the Commission's own policies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16656             In 2006, diversity was defined as 'the inclusion of groups that have traditionally been underrepresented in broadcasting:  ethno‑cultural minorities, Aboriginal peoples and persons with disabilities'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16657             Recently popular CBC radio host Andy Barrie stated that certainly, in Toronto, diversity had become a code word for visible minority.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16658             The CAB, the voice of private broadcasting industry, entitled their presentation 'Re‑defining Diversity in the 21st Century'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16659             The fact is we will continue to re‑define diversity for many years to come.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16660             MR. DE SILVA:  Semantics matters aside, we would like to define our core concerns as they pertain to opportunities for visible minority professionals working primarily in English in the mainstream of the industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16661             And what do we mean by that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16662             Simply that we would like to have access to adequate budgets on a consistent basis to make our programming attractive to viewers used to high‑quality drama in prime time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16663             In the chairman's opening remarks he identified three key issues for these hearings.  I think we all know them by heart by now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16664             We would like to respectfully add a fourth which is a key issue for us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16665             It is the diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minorities and the resulting opportunities of employment that would flow at all levels.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16666             The questions have been raised as to why ownership is important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16667             One very important reason is the right to fully participate in the economy of the country in an industry that is growing rapidly and is more and more becoming an integral part of the global economy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16668             The other is that there is a direct correlation between ownership and commitment to the community one belongs to, which invariably is reflected programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16669             Denham Jolly, the founder of Flow Radio, and Shan Chandrashekar, both of whom have been referenced at these hearings ‑ Shan of Asian Television Networks ‑ are two very good examples of this.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16670             We acknowledge the important role of third language, news, lifestyle and community programming which, we believe, is presently being well‑served by channels such as OMNI 1 and 2 in Toronto and Channel M in Vancouver and several third‑language pay services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16671             Our primary concern today is in dealing ‑ certainly from the CDPA ‑ is dealing with the issue of having adequate financial resources to tell stories in English, reflecting the interests and experiences of new immigrants, second‑ and third‑generation Canadians of visible minority and ethno‑cultural communities and of ethno‑cultural backgrounds whose primary language is English and who want to consistently, consistently, watch drama programs that reflect their interests and realities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16672             The key word here is 'consistent'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16673             The Commissioners have already heard about fragility in a system that dependents on benefits programs for new and innovative drama content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16674             A good example of this is Metropia, produced by Toronto‑based independent producer, Protocol, for OMNI.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16675             MS SCARLETT:  We realize that this is a complex issue involving market realities, the high cost of production, the popularity of American programming and the reliance by private broadcasters on this kind of programming for their profits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16676             Given the unique nature of the economics of Canadian television, and the challenges faced by broadcasters and independent producers alike in producing Canadian drama, as defined in the recently‑released Dunbar‑Leblanc Report, it is clear that we need a new model of financing for Canadian drama that can only come from direct intervention from the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16677             For visible minorities facing systemic barriers (which have been acknowledged by several interveners, including ACTRA and the Canadian Media Guild), as well as the market realities faced by all independent producers and media professionals, change will be a very long time in coming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16678             MR. DE SILVA:  Despite well‑intentioned initiatives by the CRTC, including the requirements for broadcasters to report on their diversity initiatives and file diversity plans, and efforts by individuals at various broadcasters over the past 30 years to increase the inclusion and participation of visible minorities, changes unfortunately have been marginal at best.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16679             Why have these initiatives proved to be so slow in creating any meaningful change?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16680             Because the problem is systemic and, without consistent and measurable requirements (similar to the MAPLE rules in radio), little progress will be made.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16681             With regards to the recent consolidation in the television sector, it would appear that three senior executive from visible minority communities in English‑language mainstream networks have lost their positions as a direct result of consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16682             This is of concern to us as there are, perhaps, only two other senior visible minority executives in the entire mainstream system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16683             There are several implications, including the lost of diverse perspectives at senior management levels and the decrease in the already low levels of individuals who could serve as role models to the next generation of emerging media professionals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16684             MS SCARLETT:  Having established our concerns, we would like to make four specific recommendations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16685             They are the following:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16686             1) The CRTC require broadcasters to provide specific information about hiring in front of and behind the camera, in‑house and independent productions in their annual diversity reports.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16687             Currently, it is up to the broadcasters to decide what they would like to include in their reports.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16688             2) The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluations of the reports with regards to diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16689             3) The CRTC make it a priority that minority‑owned channels be adequately funded to produce original high‑quality Canadian programming with an emphasis on drama as it is the most popular form of television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16690             Ideally, a mechanism should be created in consultation with the BDUs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16691             MR. DE SILVA:  4) That the CRTC undertake a comprehensive research study which could incorporate studies recently done by Women in Film and Television, the CAB, the Nordicity study on visible minority presence in independently‑produced CTF‑funded drama and other studies relating to the marginalization of visible minorities in Canadian society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16692             5) That the CRTC encourage broadcasters to allocate 20 per cent of their spending on independent production for productions that have two out of four (that is, producer, director, writer, lead actor) representation from visible minority communities in order to ensure consistent minimum levels of inclusion in key creative roles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16693             In conclusion, in a broadcasting system that is regulated as it should be ‑ the airwaves after all do belong to the people ‑ the onus is on the regulator to regulate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16694             The CRTC has the tools under the broadcast act to bring about meaningful change that will result in a truer reflection of Canada as it is today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16695             The question, with all respect, is:  Does it have the desire and the will?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16696             We are optimistic that it does, and we believe that Canada will be a richer and strong country because of it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16697             We thank the Commission for this opportunity of presenting our viewpoints and our recommendations, and we welcome your questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16698             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16699             We will now proceed with Ms Magda de la Torre.  If you could please introduce your colleague, you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16700             Thank you.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 16701             MS de la TORRE:  Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16702             Thank you, Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16703             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, the CRTC Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16704             Thank you for the opportunity to share our thoughts with all of you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16705             My name is Magda de la Torre, on behalf of a company to be incorporated, representing CANCON Diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16706             This morning, Doug Kirk, President of Durham Radio, will join us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16707             Our title is:  Diversity of Voices Hearing, our Last Chance until January 24, 2012.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16708             Thirty years ago, November 1977, the CRTC requested 790 AM, Brampton, to cancel the three‑hour show The Saturday Night Musical Recipe, a multicultural radio show, produced by Peter Goudas, from Goudas Foods, for not complying and enforcing the 50 per cent Canadian content in their show.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16709             The CRTC, the CANCON percentage, the number of diversity residents in Canada and the radio industry as a whole has changed drastically in the last 30 years.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16710             What has not evolved proportionally is the lack of representation and exposure that the diverse communities and the CANCON diversity members receive from the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16711             We commend the CRTC for this much‑needed hearing, but we ask ourselves if maybe it isn't too late.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16712             The latest amalgamations within the broadcasting industry have created a controlled situation by a few major players that only drastic, strong and carefully sought out measures will make a difference.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16713             The diversity spectrum in Canada is not the same as it was 30 years ago and 'all our airwaves' have to reflect this diversity phenomenon of today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16714             Is the CRTC able and willing to make the changes and uphold 'safeguarding and enriching the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada'?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16715             The results of this hearing and the changes to the regulations will be a part of the Canada where in several Canadian cities the visible minorities have become visible majorities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16716             Will those majorities be properly represented?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16717             The future is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16718             The plurality of commercial editorial voices in local and national markets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16719             Well, we know we already lost 280 journalists when CTV announced purchasing CHUM, and personally I was producing a 'Spanglish' show in Energy 108 when Shaw purchased the station and the first two shows cancelled where the two offering 'plurality'.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16720             The 'Spanglish' and the 'Caribbean & World Music', although the BBM ratings for the 'Spanglish' show were number one in 12 plus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16721             The industry as a whole has to change their mandates and their visions to recognize and foster plurality of voices in every aspect ‑ commercial, editorial and singing voices (what we are protecting and promoting).

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16722             SOCAN did.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16723             Back in July 18, 2007 we wrote, in our comments, for the Review of Commercial Radio Regulations:

                      "SOCAN collects royalties and distributes payments to artists performing third‑language music, but . it is not monitored or accounted."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16724             MS de la TORRE:  Today, only two months later, the SOCAN membership application, reads:

                      "English, French of Other."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16725             MS de la TORRE:  Now, there is a plurality, and it is measured.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16726             Like this, every media, local and national, should amend their services to include the diverse plurality residing in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16727             Enclosed is a list of the Broadcast Dialogue radio stations in the GTA for your perusal and maybe your comments.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16728             Mr. O'Farrell, talking for the Canadian broadcasters, said:

                      "We are celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16729             MS de la TORRE:  There is a plurality of commercial voices in the Toronto market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16730             Two definitions for plurality.  'The state or fact of being plural.'  'A large number or amount.'

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16731             But nobody is talking about the plurality of opinions, the plurality of backgrounds that will bring different opinions or the plurality of the diversity of countries living in Canada that each of them has journalists with opinions about the perspectives of Canadians on local, national and global affairs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16732             The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers' and, even then, sometimes it does not work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16733             The second adjacency is, like this hearing, our last chance and our only hope.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16734             With already two second adjacencies working in Toronto and one just licensed in Montreal we will welcome any other second adjacencies and, with diversity and plurality, try to balance the airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16735             Doug?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16736             MR. KIRK:  Thank you, Magda.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16737             Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this proceeding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16738             I am Doug Kirk and I own independent radio stations in Oshawa and Hamilton, Ontario.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16739             I accepted Magda's invitation to join you just to articulate a couple of key points on our vision of diversity of ownership and programming, which better serve the Canadian populace.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16740             Now, last year, I was here and participated in the Review of Radio with the Ontario Independent Radio (OIRG) presentation, and, without restating that presentation, let me just refresh a couple of the key conditions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16741             Onr is that in our view the Canadian radio industry is two‑tiered.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16742             The major 14 markets are substantially dominated by the big six players, and that could be five soon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16743             And those markets have over 60 per cent of Canada's radio revenue and three quarter of the profitability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16744             The large groups continue to be moved by what I call the gravitational force of consolidation.  They just get bigger and continue to get bigger.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16745             And, you know, their view and reason is to grow and increase profitability and basically return, as a lot of them are public companies or major private aggregations of capital.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16746             This continues in the CHUM/CTV thing already done, Astral/Standard in the works, CanWest having sold its stations to Corus, privates stations such as The Beat in Vancouver to CTV.  This continues on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16747             The large operators want to continue to grow and increase profits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16748             I believe that, if the Commission wants diversity of ownership and programming, it can do that by licensing new and emerging owners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16749             Similarly, musical genres are, I think, best portrayed to the public by owners which have first‑hand knowledge and experience in the music.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16750             I would just leave you with those two points, and Magda will finish and certainly take questions later.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16751             MS de la TORRE:  Regulations and/or guidelines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16752             The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16753             The diversity of programming choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of existing or proposed regulatory tools in ensuring appropriate diversity of content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16754             Back in 2004, the Commission, on diversity, identified two clear objectives:

                      "The broadcasting system should be a mirror in which all Canadians can see themselves.  The broadcasting system should be the one in which producers, writers, technicians and artists from different cultural and social perspectives have the opportunity to create a variety of programming and to develop their skills." (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16755             MS de la TORRE:  Except for the ethnic or community stations, almost all of the other Canadian media ignores diversity in their programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16756             Our producers, writers, technicians and artists do not have a proportionally represented voice in the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16757             But, yes, once again, Mr. O'Farrell is celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16758             Two definitions for diversity:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16759             Diversity is the presence of a range of variations in the qualities or attributes under discussion.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16760             Diversity is the term used to describe the relative uniqueness of each individual in the population.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16761             Mr. O'Farrell is definitely using the first description.  And he is right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16762             Our OBCI is full of producers, writers, technicians and artists that do not have a voice in the Canadian airwaves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16763             Frustrated, yes.  Energy to keep struggling to achieve something in our new country, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16764             Our plans are big and full of surprises.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16765             We have already sealed an agreement with Woofur, a radio by people for people, created to cater to people between the ages of 12 to 54 with interests ranging from independent music to genres of mainstream music not easily accessible on the local radio airplay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16766             It didn't come out.  It is

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16767             Together, we will create a voice for Diversity Indies in every genre and in every language.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16768             During Canadian Music Week we will host a Diversity Day on Saturday and are planning to ask FACTOR, Radio Starmaker Fund/Fonds Radiostar and MusicAction to train our members to apply for funding and that evening we will host a Latin Rock Show.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16769             Finally, as our long‑term plan, we have our Canadian Diversity Idol converted into the Canadian Diversity Star, as idols sometimes are forgotten but stars will shine forever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16770             The CCD, Canadian Content Development initiatives, as described in the CRTC Public Notice, has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members and the broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16771             This is logical as their stations do not promote or air this kind of programming or music.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16772             Regulations and/or guidelines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16773             The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16774             Attached please find paragraphs from the University of Calgary comments that we all found very true.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16775             Also enclosed are four letters from our members Canadian Unity Press, Billy Bryan, Radames Nieves and Lula Lounge.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16776             The effectiveness of existing choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of content in cross‑media ownership situations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16777             Our comments on this issue will be sent prior to October 5 after we do a thorough study in the matter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16778             We would like to finish our comments with a thought taken from the 'diversity of apples':

                      "To conserve these varieties is to conserve genetic diversity, and conserving diversity is more than a question of nostalgia and taste, it is a question of the future of the fruit." (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16779             MS de la TORRE:  This is our future and it is in your hands.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16780             Canada is a leader in diversity and your actions assure us that our future will be better, in a country that dares to be different, our Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16781             I am looking forward to any questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16782             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16783             I would like to, first of all, ask the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16784             I looked at your four points ‑ or five point, sorry.  And you start off, you are really focusing, if I understand it, very much, not in terms only of diversity of broadcasting, but also of diversity of employment in the broadcasting industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16785             And your special focus happens to be, if I understood you correctly, English broadcast based on an ethnic origin.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16786             And then you say, in your recommendation number one, you should require specific information about the hiring in front of and behind camera by broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16787             Then number two says:

                      "The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluation of the reports with regards to diversity."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16788             I wonder whether you could explain to me what you mean by realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16789             I mean, I gather, number one, that we get a report from each broadcaster and it would show who they employ before and behind camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16790             Now, having got that data, it is over to us to set realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16791             What do you expect us to do?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16792             MR. DE SILVA:  Well, the suggestion, Mr. Chairman, would be for a process that would take place at the CRTC, in consultation with the broadcaster, to, based on what their revenues are, what their production targets are, what the independent production side of their business is, is to suggest what it could or should be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16793             We are not suggesting at this point that any mandatory or order should be issued, but the process to be started to evaluated what would be ideal for those broadcasters to aspire to.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16794             At the moment, from what I understand, there is process of establishing particular targets or goals or anything like that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16795             So that would be what we would suggest ‑ that, that process be engaged.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16796             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the goal is:  the process of engaged targets are established, and then, as a result of that, the programming will reflect the diversity that you have created through those targets within the broadcasters employment ranks before or behind the camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16797             MR. DE SILVA:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16798             THE CHAIRPERSON:  OK.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16799             And, Mrs. de la Torre, you say something very similar in point 20 on page 2.  You say:

                      "The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16800             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is this ‑ I mean, that is a fairly strong statement.  Is this based on some sort of studies or is this your conviction?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16801             MS de la TORRE:  Well, it is my conviction.  But, besides that, it is, if I analyze what all the broadcasters have been doing and how they have been working, there is always some kind of diversity background on the ones that ‑ although, because I can mention one or two that ‑ they do it on their own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16802             And I wish all of them were like those one or two.  But some of them take of the money or think of the money that it will bring, and that is where I see that maybe something by the CRTC will make them work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why does the market not do that?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16804             I would have thought, if there is a market for visible programming, a visible minority program, ethnic program, language program, et cetera ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16805             MS de la TORRE:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16806             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑ owners would go after it regardless of their background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16807             By the same token, ethnic owners, if they can make a bigger buck by producing traditional programming rather than ethnic programming, would go after that too.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16808             Why do you suggest that there is a link between a person's ethnicity and the programming?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16809             MS de la TORRE:  I will talk about myself personally.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16810             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16811             MS de la TORRE:  I had a program at Energy 108, and when Shaw bought it we were ‑ by BBM, not me talking ‑ we were the number one in 12 plus.  We were already bringing money to the station.  And we were out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16812             But Shaw was wise enough at that time to see the possibilities on the ethnicity and started to by Telelatino.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16813             THE CHAIRPERSON:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16814             MS de la TORRE:  When they first approached Telelatino, Telelatino said:  OK, so can we be in your BDU?  And they said:  Until you sign you cannot be with the BDU.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16815             So they signed first.  Then they took the 51 per cent.  And now it is 100 per cent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16816             Shaw ‑ and I am only talking about Shaw because that it is the only that is mine.  I have been there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16817             If you analyzed the community members that work within Shaw, that is making a lot of money with Telelatino, the only program that is live is a Cuban that lives in Miami and comes here once a month, does four shows, tapes four shows, and goes back.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16818             That is the only live program that there is.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16819             So I can focus on Shaw and say that Shaw is one of the stations that will only work with diversity if it brings them money.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16820             There are other stations that work with diversity without that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16821             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16822             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16823             MR. KIRK:  Could I just make a comment?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16824             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16825             MR. KIRK:  I think your point has a broader point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16826             Say, in the radio business, for example, why aren't there more niche‑oriented or, say, a Caribbean‑oriented radio station?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16827             And part of it, I think, is just the supply problem. Certainly in major cities, in comparison to, say, U.S. markets, there are fewer frequencies available.  And the economic model wins out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16828             So, rock stations and country and adult contemporary stations take the pecking order down, and you are basically out of channels before some of these smaller niches get satisfied.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16829             So, I think that is the point you have heard in other presentations this week, and we are certainly re‑emphasizing it to say:  You know, if you can licence more to serve, particularly in big markets, those niches will get filled.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16830             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Isn't that a numbers' game?  When you have a sufficient number from one language or from one ethnic group, then in effect it becomes very lucrative to serve them and you will have people going up to that market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16831             MR. KIRK:  Yes.  I think that has happened. Certainly the growth of the ethnic broadcasting business in Canada is a tribute to that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16832             I think now it is getting to bringing other world of music to ‑ other genres of music into the market, where there just isn't room at this point to add a lot of new stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16833             THE CHAIRPERSON:  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16834             Rita, you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16835             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16836             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16837             Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16838             Ms de la Torre, I will follow up with you to begin with, and then I will have some questions for you, Mr. De Silva and Ms Scarlett.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16839             What were the reasons that Shaw gave you for cancelling the show?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16840             MS de la TORRE:  No reasons.  They are they owners.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16841             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  They just came in one day and said:  Your show is gone even though it is number.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16842             MS de la TORRE:  A letter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16843             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And how did your advertisers react?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16844             MS de la TORRE:  They were not with them anymore because what they wanted was this Spanglish show.  So.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16845             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So, your advertisers, did they protest to Shaw?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16846             MS de la TORRE:  Yeah, but it doesn't matter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16847             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It didn't change their minds at all.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16848             MS de la TORRE:  Oh, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16849             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You talked about Canadian content development initiatives has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members, and broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC.  That was in your oral presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16850             Did you make a presentation to Astral when the Astral standard deal was announced, for example?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16851             MS de la TORRE:  No, I didn't.  No, I didn't.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16852             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  OK.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16853             Do you have a process in place, you know, with your partners, that ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16854             MS de la TORRE: Yes, we are going to do that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16855             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑ could enable you to do that in the future ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16856             MS de la TORRE:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16857             COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑ because perhaps that is an approach to take?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16858             MS de la TORRE:  I have to say something about Astral.  I don't live in Montreal, but Astral is one of the broadcasters that without ‑ only out of the neighbours and the people that hear Astral, are very good at giving airplay to diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16859             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Perhaps, at licence renewal time, which there has to be commitment, that is somthing that you could consider.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16860             MS de la TORRE:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16861             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Making a formal present.  Perhaps to sponsor your Canadian diversity star.

‑‑‑ Laughter

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16862             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I like what you said about star, not idol.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16863             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16864             Mr. De Silva, your association, how many members do you currently have?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16865             MR. DE SILVA:  We currently have about 50.  Roughly 50 members across the country.  With a growing membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16866             We were hoping to actually announce the availability of our website, our revamped website, which would give you further details (

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16867             It is currently being revamped by one of our members in Vancouver.  And maybe by the end of the day we can give you that information.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16868             That would give you much more information about the CDPA's membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16869             But roughly about 50.  And we will be ‑ we have a target, Patricia, probably of about 150 ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16870             MS SCARLETT:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16871             MR. DE SILVA:  ‑ by the end of ‑ by the end of the year.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16872             We are a fairly new organization.  And, as you can imagine, with trying to ramp up with resources, et cetera, it has been challenging for us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16873             But there is a tremendous amount of interest in terms of joining.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16874             And, when we first launched in Banff, in 2005, there was sort of a ground swell.  And.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16875             That is the quick answer.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16876             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a criteria for membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16877             MR. DE SILVA:  Pat can actually ‑ we have got a fairly detailed criteria, actually.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16878             MS SCARLETT:  Anyone who is self‑identified as, you know, of certain ethnic background, be it cultural or racial, in fact, can become members of the organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16879             MR. DE SILVA:  Sorry.  Just a clarification, Madame Cugini, were you asking in terms of eligibility for membership or what is the range in terms of membership?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16880             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Eligibility for membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16881             MS SCARLETT:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16882             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So the producer has to be a visible minority or from an ethno‑cultural background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16883             MS SCARLETT:  Self‑identified, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16884             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Self‑identified.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16885             MR. DE SILVA:  We are also opening it to associate members.  So anyone of good will or interest in the issue who would like to be a part of the association can be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16886             We are just sort of sorting out what the language will be for that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16887             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So, if there is someone who is not self‑identified but has produced or wants to produce programs that reflect diversity, they can become an associate member.  Not a full member.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16888             MS SCARLETT:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16889             MR. DE SILVA:  Correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16890             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  OK.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16891             On the bottom of page three of your oral presentation, you say you would like to have access to adequate funding ‑ to adequate budgets ‑ on a consistent basis.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16892             We hear from the guilds all the time.  We hear from producers all the time.  We hear from ACTRA.  And they have the same concerns that you do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16893             Is your concern more unique than theirs?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16894             MR. DE SILVA:  You were reaching for your microphone, Patricia.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16895             MS SCARLETT:  Go ahead.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16896             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Have you rehearsed this answer?

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16897             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just kidding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16898             MR. DE SILVA:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16899             But we face the question, I think, on many occasions in different venues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16900             I think obviously we face the same issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16901             It is an industry‑wide concern.  You have heard, you know, obviously, as you said, ACTRA.  Anybody who is an independent producer knows the issues of the scarcity of resources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16902             So we face the same issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16903             However, we face additional issues of systemic nature in terms of the fact that, if the opportunities, for instances, for, let us just say, writers, to work on shows that didn't have any diversity content ‑ you know, for many, many years, they didn't have the opportunity to develop their skills.  Likewise for directors.  Or for actors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16904             So we know.  There have been numerous studies that talk about marginalization of visible minorities in the overall economic system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16905             And the same thing applies to our industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16906             In addition to the problems facing independent producers and actors and all creative people, visible minorities and members from ethno‑cultural communities face additional systemic problems that make it even harder.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16907             I think, if you spoke, even to people who have achieved, you know, a fairly high level of recognition and achievement in the industry, people like Deepa Mehta, for instance, that we all know from her wonderful films, will say very directly that there are issues that visible minorities face that are unique and additional to the ones that are faced by mainstream producers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16908             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  One of the things that broadcasters always demonstrate to us is, when they want to commission a producer to produce a certain program or in their ‑ the term escapes me.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16909             But, in their criteria for engaging an independent producer, they always highlight the clause in there that says that the productions ‑ you know, that the producers must endeavour to reflect diversity as much as possible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16910             Are you saying that, that is just simply not enough on the part of broadcasters to put that in their documents?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16911             MS SCARLETT:  The answer is yes, in that, in more instances than not, what ends up happening is that the actual ownership of the production is by another company that brings in talent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16912             And often time people at a fairly junior level that may get to work on that one project, but it may be a long time before they ever get to work on anything again.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16913             So there is no consistency.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16914             It is like any skill that you develop and you want to gain mastery over.  You have to work at it all the time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16915             And this is not to say that all producers do not experience this challenge of being able to work consistently.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16916             But, because there are so few projects that are created where people of visible minority can work behind and in front of the camera, the challenge is even greater.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16917             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just one final area that I want to touch up, which the Chair already has, and that is your second recommendation where you talk about realistic targets.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16918             Mr. De Silva, you know very well about the CAB's taskforce report on cultural diversity, and that taskforce spent two years, just about, talking to broadcasters and to community groups and to representatives of visible minority groups, persons with disabilities, representatives from all four of the designated groups, and the taskforce heard consistently that setting targets or quotas is akin to affirmative action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16919             And we all know the criticism of affirmative action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16920             Are you not basically asking us to take affirmative action here, in your recommendation number two?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16921             MR. DE SILVA:  Well, I think what we are asking ‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16922             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And five, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16923             MR. DE SILVA:  I think what we are asking is for the Commission to recognize the fact that there is a real problem here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16924             And, until you recognize that there is a problem, you won't take any measures to rectify that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16925             And the real problem is the. I was trying to use the word 'massive'.  But the considerable under‑representation and the continuing under‑representation despite all the efforts of reporting and initiatives, the problem being that the initiatives are not consistent for the representation of visible minorities at all levels.  Ownership levels.  Representation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16926             I believe the CAB study focused primarily on representation in the industry in terms on on‑camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16927             But the problem is much larger than that if the producers and the owners of the system aren't participating in that system.  They are not going to commission programs that require actors, people on camera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16928             So it becomes a systemic problem that needs a particular ‑ you know, a very strong response.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16929             Now, I know the work 'affirmative action'.  I used to work for the Human Rights Commission in Ontario.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16930             At that time, the word 'affirmative action' was in favor, I suppose, because felt that those measures were required.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16931             It has gone out of favor.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16932             There are concerns that, by setting quotas, we are in fact doing reverse discrimination, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16933             But we all, you know, in all our public policy in government, we do set quotas. We do set targets.  We do realize that if we want to solve a problem we have to take direct action.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16934             So whatever terminology that is used to encourage, to assist the industry ‑ because I think, you know, for instance, in radio, unless those targets were set for Canadian production, we wouldn't have a thriving industry today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16935             You could have called that affirmative action.  I imagine it was.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16936             So, if we say that, in a similar way the CRTC took action on the radio side for Canadian music production, which was very successful, in that same vein, we would recommend that the CRTC do the same thing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16937             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  One thing that surprises me about this is that you are asking us basically to exclusively play a numbers game when it comes to representation of visible minorities, whether it is behind the camera or in front of the camera, when during those two years of the taskforce report, and as you know I was part of that taskforce, one of the major elements was portrayal, rather than a numbers' game, where I would rather see one positive role model than 100 stereotypes of a certain ethnic group or visible minority group.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16938             And yet you don't speak at all in your presentation about portrayal.  You focus exclusively on a numbers' game.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16939             MR. DE SILVA:  I think because ‑ as you say, I think the CAB study did a very good job of portrayal, but I think the point we were repeating, or making, is that portrayal on camera ‑‑ and I think, if you look at the Nordicity study, which looked at portrayal, a study done by Solutions Research, it showed that while portrayal has increased, it is really in the background roles of busboys, girl Fridays, waiters in restaurants.  The secondary roles really have increased, and very, very little in terms of primary roles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16940             So while portrayal is important, for us, in terms of our members, who are producers primarily, it is the opportunities that exist behind the camera, not just in front of the camera, in terms of the access we have to resources for producing television series and feature films, the things that Canadians want to watch, and the programming that really tells the story about us being part of society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16941             So portrayal is important, but who gets to tell the stories and participate in the overall benefits of the industry is, if not as important, more important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16942             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16943             Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16944             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Stuart, I believe you have a question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16945             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I have a couple of more questions, following up, if I may, on Ms Cugini's questions as to the end result you want ‑‑ the goal on portrayal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16946             Acting on the assumption that there is strength in numbers ‑‑ the bigger your organization is, the louder its voice will be ‑‑ it seems to me that you have, in my view, unnecessarily narrowed the membership list, and I wondered about that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16947             If I wrote it down correctly ‑‑ I took some notes as you were speaking ‑‑ "self‑identified, ethnic background, cultural or racial" was basically the formula, and yet, in your text, you speak of other groups that would have comparable complaints, I assume ‑‑ handicapped people, blind people ‑‑ well, that's a type of handicap ‑‑ people who feel discriminated against because of age or gender or sexual orientation or whatever, and I just wondered why you wouldn't broaden the group.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16948             If what you are trying to do is get your voice heard and get some fairness in the system, why so narrow a focus?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16949             MS SCARLETT:  We did add later, in fact, other people who had issues concerning diversity.  They were also invited to be part of the organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16950             Our core focus was on the ones that we identified, but it was certainly open to others to join.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16951             For example, people with disabilities, people of different sexual orientation, fine, they could join, but that was not the core mandate of the organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If I understood you correctly, they get a kind of associate membership, they don't get full membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16952             MS SCARLETT:  It is not unlike WIFT.  Men may become associate members, but it is a women's organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.  In that sense, if I join WIFT, it is because I support it but don't expect to get anything more out of it than a better world overall, because I am not a woman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16953             MS SCARLETT:  Sure.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But if I am handicapped and join an organization like yours, I, too, might expect to be seen on screen, and I, too, might hope that you would broaden your focus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16954             So I would get more than a better world, I would get a better world for me, too, as well as overall.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16955             MS SCARLETT:  My comments were not with regard to inclusion in terms of productions but in terms of participation in the organization itself, and the mandate of the organization is to provide training and professional development for all members of the association, whether or not they are self‑identified, visible minorities, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16956             MR. DE SILVA:  If I may add, Commissioner Langford, I think you raise a very interesting point, as well.  This is a dilemma that, I think, many organizations face, where to focus their energies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16957             We are very aware and are quite engaged and connected with people in the disability movement.  I was the executive producer for a television series for the CBC on disability called "D‑Net", and many of my close friends are involved in the disability movement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16958             This is a dilemma for us:  where do we put our scarce resources, and how do we most effectively work on behalf of our members.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16959             It is an evolving thing.  There is no question about it that strength in numbers, which is always effective, is what we seek, and we will be looking for ways to incorporate that as much as possible in our organization.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe even get aging White gentlemen like me, who find they just aren't wanted in the movies any more.  I might join.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16960             MR. DE SILVA:  I don't think the statistics bear that out, quite frankly, Commissioner Langford.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I am not willing to undergo a sex change, so there goes the career.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have one other question.  Are you carrying this campaign, if I may call it that, to other fora?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16961             In other words, you have come to us, the regulator, and, clearly, you are probably going to government, as well, in other ways, but what about journalism schools and schools that teach cinematography and teach film and stuff?  Are you putting the pressure on them, as well?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16962             Obviously, if you don't get trained people, they are going to have a harder time getting a job.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16963             MS SCARLETT:  Yes, we will be approaching, certainly, some of the tertiary institutions that teach television and film.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16964             Through the organization we are developing an extensive training and professional development program, and one of the first initiatives that we have created is something we are calling "The Inside Series", which is a networking opportunity.  It takes the format of inside the actors' studio.  We will invite people from various independent production companies to come into this forum, where they are interviewed, and other members of the film and television production community, in fact, can get to know them better, as well as some of the things they are producing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16965             In fact, our website is being set up to create a nationwide online community of independent filmmakers.

`                COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  Those are my questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16966             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I think those are our questions.  Thank you for your contribution.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16967             MR. DE SILVA:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16968             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Boulet?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16969             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16970             I will now invite the next two intervenors to come forward, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network Incorporated and the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16971             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, Mr. LaRose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16972             MR. LAROSE:  Good morning.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16973             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. LaRose, we will start with your presentation.  You will have ten minutes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16974             Please, go ahead.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 16975             MR. LAROSE:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16976             Good morning, Chairperson von Finckenstein and Commissioners.  I am Jean LaRose, Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16977             Thank you for the invitation to appear at this hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16978             It has been a full week, so I will get straight to the point.  Let me discuss first how the CRTC has had a huge impact on the diversity of voices and Aboriginal peoples' participation in broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16979             What is the source of this impact?  It's quite simple:  direct regulation by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16980             Three elements of the CRTC's regulation of APTN have been absolutely critical to our success.  First, APTN's national licence translates into a mandate to serve southern Canada as well as the north, which has resulted directly in more diversity in the programming that APTN brings to air compared to our predecessor, TVNC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16981             Second, APTN would not have achieved the level of distribution that we have without the benefit of the CRTC's Section 9.1(h) Distribution Order.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16982             Third, APTN's regulated wholesale fee has become a stable source of continued funding for APTN, which APTN spends directly and entirely to increase the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16983             Each of these elements depends on the CRTC's direct intervention under the Broadcasting Act.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16984             This kind of regulation is not a relic of the past, as the Commission sometimes hears people say.  For Aboriginal peoples, this kind of regulation is a foundation for the future.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16985             I can tell you that the internet and mobile broadcasting look completely different from the vantage point of an established broadcaster than they do for someone who is not already in the industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16986             Our renewal in 2005 was also significant, in that it has allowed us to take greater advantage of the opportunity we now have.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16987             We are developing strong partnerships with other broadcasters, and producing new, higher budget drama series, which would have been impossible to consider in our first term.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16988             We have established credibility and recognition within the industry, and, more importantly, a growing audience of viewers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16989             This would never have been possible without the intervention and support of the regulator.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16990             From our perspective and from the perspective of all Aboriginal peoples, increasing industry consolidation is somewhat less significant than the launch and support of APTN as a means for our own participation in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16991             Also, we do not view a level of industry consolidation as being necessarily a bad thing for APTN or Aboriginal peoples.  Canada needs strong media companies.  To some extent, consolidation can present opportunities for smaller entities like APTN.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16992             We already have expertise in reaching a fast‑growing sector of the audience that is becoming one of interest to Canada's corporate players.  I believe that those who ignore APTN and our audience are being shortsighted, and some media executives I have spoken to share this belief.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16993             Our point is just that the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system owes a great deal to direct regulatory intervention by the CRTC.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16994             The voices that oppose this kind of intervention and call it unnecessary are more troubling to us than industry consolidation on its own.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16995             While we don't see industry consolidation as one of the most pressing issues for Aboriginal peoples, we fully support the Commission's effort to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16996             We are not, as a broadcaster, indifferent to consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16997             We need more than just a couple of strong broadcasters, and we need more than just a couple of distributors in Canada.  We especially need them to operate in an environment where the rules are clear and the policy objectives are well spelled out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16998             Competition between media enterprises translates into a competition of ideas, and getting the best information out to the public in the best way possible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 16999             We feel this kind of competition every day at APTN, and I am confident that every other media enterprise experiences something similar.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17000             Looking at the role of the independent production community, we have found that independent production has been the surest way to bring diversity into the system in a direct way.  Until APTN, Aboriginal independent producers had few outlets and very scarce resources.  APTN has helped to grow this sector and to produce programs for broadcast on APTN and on the commercial networks with Aboriginal points of view that would not otherwise have been seen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17001             The Commission is correct to encourage independent production as one of the most direct means of ensuring that the system taps into a wide range of voices.  Too much reliance on in‑house production by broadcasters could have a significant negative impact on independent production overall.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17002             In our case, for example, there is seldom a show produced by an independent Aboriginal producer that does not rely on licence fees from another broadcaster.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17003             If those other broadcasters stopped relying as much on independent producers, the opportunities for Aboriginal independent producers would decrease, as would APTN's ability to trigger those productions and present the same diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17004             While APTN does not oppose a degree of industry consolidation, we would not go to an extreme length and suggest that there is no cause for concern or intervention in these areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17005             The Commission needs to ensure that opportunities for entry in our system remain open, and to put forward policies to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices and viewpoints.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17006             The Commission has been exploring a number of mechanisms that the Commission might use to look at media consolidation and promote diversity.  Let me be upfront:  I don't have the answer for you.  But, if you don't mind, I will review some of the principles that could be taken into consideration, from our perspective at APTN.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17007             First, the Commission should be concerned about ownership concentration in the broadcasting industry and across other major forms of media, such as the print media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17008             Some have said, in effect, that there is no concern about consolidation and cross‑ownership, but we believe those views are overstated.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17009             Second, we need strong media enterprises, but the control of multiple, influential media outlets should be accompanied by a responsibility to promote editorial diversity across those outlets and elsewhere in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17010             Third, the benefits that are proposed in connection with merger transactions should be benefits that encourage a diversity of voices in the consolidated enterprise and elsewhere in the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17011             If the Commission does away with tangible benefits, then the Commission should develop more secure and transparent mechanisms to support diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17012             Fourth, as the market power of participants increases with consolidation, the Commission should implement direct regulatory safeguards to protect those that have less power but are important to preserve a diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17013             In the area of tangible benefits, for example, we have proposed that the CRTC's benefits policy in the television sector should be structured to promote diversity.  We have suggested a one‑third, one‑third and one‑third approach.  An entity proposing benefits would allocate one‑third to independent production funds, one‑third to support broadcasting initiatives designed by the applicant, and the remaining one‑third to areas of the Commission's priority to promote diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17014             Naturally, APTN believes that initiatives that support the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the system, who have been and, I would argue, remain the most marginalized and invisible in mainstream commercial television, should be a part of the benefits that promote a diversity of voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17015             We also believe that it is important that benefits that are directed to promote Aboriginal participation should be administered, as much as possible, by Aboriginal peoples themselves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17016             Regarding the question of market power and consolidation, we have pointed out in our written submission that one area where APTN has been disadvantaged due to the market power of some large integrated BDUs is our channel placement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17017             I was pleased to see that the Dunbar/Leblanc Report brought that issue back on the radar screen.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17018             That is the type of regulatory area that the Commission could use to level the impact of media consolidation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17019             We know the Commission will soon be looking at the BDU regulatory environment, and we are looking forward to reviewing BDU carriage issues with the CRTC at that time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17020             Thank you for the opportunity to present our views.  I would welcome your questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17021             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17022             We will now proceed with Mr. Jamie Hill of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17023             I would ask you to introduce your colleague, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation, Mr. Hill.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 17024             MR. HILL:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Panel, Commission Staff and ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Jamie Hill, and I am the Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17025             With me is J. Robert Wood, an advisor with over 30 years of experience in the broadcasting industry.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17026             I am now ready to begin the presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17027             I would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to provide comments in this important Diversity of Voices proceeding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17028             AVR is a non‑profit organization, founded to facilitate the development of a national Aboriginal radio service that broadcasts in large urban centres in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17029             Thanks to the CRTC, AVR has been granted licences to operate stations in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Kitchener, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.  It has been extremely expensive, but all of these stations are now on the air, with the exception of recently approved licences to serve Regina and Saskatoon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17030             We are working right now to add a number of improvements to the service.  These service improvements will be heard on the air in each city very soon.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17031             Our overarching mission is to help improve the lives of Aboriginal people.  We intend to do this by filling the need for a high‑quality Aboriginal programming service in urban centres, where the majority of Canada's Aboriginal people now live.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17032             Despite the critical role that radio can play to help nurture and reflect Aboriginal values, aspirations and culture, Aboriginal people in Canada's largest cities had little or no access to Canada's radio broadcasting system before AVR came along.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17033             The word "unique" truly applies to AVR.  There is no service like ours in the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17034             Our diversity within the radio sector is characterized by the fact that AVR is the only service in southern Canada, and perhaps all of Canada that features Aboriginal artists in virtually all of its music programming on a dedicated basis, and AVR's programming is specifically targeted to serve the needs and interests of Aboriginal people all across Canada, whether of Indian, Inuit or Métis background.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17035             Musically, we are proud of what is now blossoming at AVR to foster the development of Canadian content, and especially Aboriginal content.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17036             We provide a national window of opportunity for hundreds of Aboriginal Canadian artists who have historically been denied access to the airwaves of the CBC, private sector commercial stations, ethnic stations, most campus and community stations, and the overwhelming majority of Aboriginal stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17037             In public affairs programming, AVR's capability is to offer a unique perspective on current affairs that addresses the long‑neglected needs of a community whose views and tastes have been under‑represented and misrepresented in the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17038             Through these and other factors, AVR offers a broad, rich and varied programming mixture that enhances diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17039             I would like to comment on AVR's financial viability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17040             Unfortunately, funding from broadcaster benefits packages, averaging less than $1 million per year, is not enough to operate radio stations in nine cities across Canada at a level of service and quality that other Canadians enjoy in non‑Aboriginal radio broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17041             Moreover, given that the spectrum is almost exhausted, benefits packages are not a sufficiently reliable source of funding to secure the long‑term viability of a national radio service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17042             In order to continue to contribute to the two primary goals of the Broadcasting Act, namely, Canadian content and access to the system for all Canadians, AVR must find a way to secure adequate, stable, long‑term funding.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17043             In its Call for Comments with respect to this review, the Commission asks whether Commission policies need to be adapted in order to ensure that the voices of Aboriginal and ethnic Canadians, as well as those with disabilities, have appropriate access to the system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17044             In AVR's view, the Commission already has the regulatory tools at its disposal to provide the funding needed to facilitate such access.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17045             Therefore, in order to ensure that urban Aboriginal people have appropriate access to the system, the Commission must be prepared to utilize these tools to ensure that AVR has appropriate resources to do its work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17046             This would be consistent with the Commission's position enunciated in its Native Broadcasting Policy, Public Notice CRTC 1990‑89, in which it said:

                      "In the Commission's view, it is essential that Aboriginal broadcasters receive sufficient funds to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities."

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17047             Increased consolidation defies the idea of having diversity in a system.  I believe that the way to ensure there is diversity in the system is to approve mechanisms for long‑term financial viability for organizations such as AVR, keeping in mind that there are mechanisms in place for the long‑term financial viability of commercial broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17048             The Aboriginal community is Canada's poorest and most vulnerable community, for historical reasons which are not of its doing.  Access to the broadcasting system through a national Aboriginal radio service is critical to strengthening the Aboriginal community in its ongoing efforts to overcome the challenges it now faces as a result of the historical legacy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17049             Our focus throughout the entire history of AVR has been on mere survival, not the high‑quality programming that Aboriginal people ought to have access to like other Canadians do.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17050             Without sufficient funding, AVR will continue to be at risk, operating an underfunded service at the margins of the Canadian broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17051             Such a prospect would mean more of the same, as far as the historical legacy of Aboriginal people is concerned.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17052             We do look forward to working with the Commission to secure the long‑term viability of AVR and, by extension, provide appropriate access to the system that free over‑the‑air radio can provide Canada's poorest community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17053             That concludes our presentation, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission.  Thank you for listening.  I would be pleased to answer any questions you have with respect to this presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17054             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17055             I will deal first with APTN, and then with AVR, and then my colleagues will pitch in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17056             Mr. LaRose, thank you, first of all, for the very complimentary comments you made about the CRTC.  We are not used to hearing such laudation.  It is nice to see that some of the things we do actually work, and I appreciate it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17057             You mentioned that you have 9.1(h) status, and that that is part of the key to your success.  We have had other people appearing before us, even at this hearing, who were saying, that being the case, it means that you have an existence, but that's about all.  You can still be, more or less, ill treated by the BDUs.  You can be moved in the tiering and the channel placement, et cetera.  Negotiations may be very arduous, and what you get on the one hand, you lose on the other.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17058             Do you have any experience along those lines?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17059             I don't want you to mention specific BDUs.  I don't want to get you into trouble, I would just be interested to know to what extent is the 9.1(h) status the security that you need, and to what extent it still does not give you the strength to negotiate on a safe basis and get predictability with your BDUs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17060             MR. LAROSE:  I would suggest that, without 9.1(h), we would have absolutely nothing going for us.  9.1(h), at least, ensures that we are on the airwaves.  It, at least, ensures that we have a position on the dial.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17061             It certainly hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all when it comes to channel placement, for one thing.  When you consider that, as a network, we are supposed to be on basic carriage, as of this morning, I just found out that we are now 100.  We have just been moved up to 100 in a major market by a major BDU.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17062             I have an older set that doesn't go to 100, so if I don't buy additional, or change TVs, or what have you, I no longer ‑‑ I don't consider that I am on basic any more.  So I think that has been an issue.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17063             9.1(h) has been very helpful in ensuring that we get funding, that we receive the subscriber fee, and that we are somewhere on the channel, but it hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17064             As I said in my presentation, I think that is where, in areas of consolidation, the Commission might be able to look at creating new policy areas that would deal with such issues, that would address such concerns, to make sure that the objectives you set forth, as you did with 9.1(h), are not in one way or another undermined by weaknesses in other areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17065             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about tiering and packaging?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17066             MR. LAROSE:  Again, in the area of tiering and packaging, our experience has been that we often are sort of marginalized or set aside.  We are not very well packaged.  We certainly are quite invisible sometimes on some of the channels that promote what is appearing on‑air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17067             Forgive me, but the term in English escapes me right now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17068             I think what it shows is that quite often there is still a resistance by some of the BDUs to actually promote us fairly, as they do with other services.  That is still a concern that we have.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17069             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where would you see yourself logically being placed, from your point of view, in a package?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17070             MR. LAROSE:  In all honesty, I think that, as Canada's fourth national broadcaster, we should be right there with CTV, Global and CBC.  We should be right before CHUM.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17071             I think we should be in the top 20, top 25 numbers.  We should have that position, which many others, in fact ‑‑ interestingly enough, some of the smaller BDUs, who have placed APTN anywhere from Channel 2 to Channel 20, have actually found that it is in their interest to have us there, because we do have an audience, and it serves them well to market us and place us in a good position.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17072             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned in your presentation the importance that independent producers place, and the difficulty that you have ‑‑ the same as we heard from the CFTPA, et cetera.  They are pushing very strongly, and we are supporting them to establish a Terms of Trade Agreement with the broadcasters, so that most of these negotiations ‑‑ there is a whole set of terms that are automatic, and you basically deal with a few outstanding items.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17073             I assume that you are in support of that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17074             Do you know what the CFTPA has been doing?  Have you been working with them?  Are you part of that working group, so that whatever gets negotiated applies to Aboriginal producers the same way as it does to others?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17075             MR. LAROSE:  We are involved.  I haven't been the individual directly involved in that.  That has been left with the director of the Programming Department, but they have been in touch with the CFTPA.  We are involved in that group quite closely.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17076             Certainly, those concerns are concerns that we have, as well.  Quite often our producers find themselves at a disadvantage when they are negotiating with major broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17077             What helps many of them is that, quite often, if it is shared or if there is another window with APTN, they turn to us to help negotiate some of those terms, and I think that we have established a certain credibility with other broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17078             But, certainly, they would benefit from overall standards that would help them protect their interests, to the extent that all producers need to have their interests protected.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17079             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you say you're not against consolidation, you see the need for strong players.  On the other hand, you sort of mention that we have to worry of the process here and we should make sure that the various parts of the media are included when we talk about editorial voices and it's not just media, but also newspapers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17080             So, do I read into this that you basically support the CBC's first suggestion that for markets, you have a two out of three roles that you can own TV and radio, but you can't own TV, radio and newspaper, or any or two of those three?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17081             MR. LAROSE:  Well, to the extent that they would be the only three in that market obviously that's ‑‑ to me that would be ‑‑ that's a given. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17082             If there is ‑‑ I am not, I haven't got a specific thought on when it comes to print media as incorporated into them, but I certainly do believe that a certain level of media consolidation has promoted a sort of a strength in the industry that can then be leveraged by both the Commission and smaller players to provide access to some of the diversity of voices that we are discussing here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17083             As an example, a stronger CTV in my mind has certainly been beneficial in helping us develop news bureaux across the country than providing us, funding for drama series. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17084             So, I think that in the area where a player becomes stronger financially and stronger, a stronger entity where there is public policy to ensure that the benefits apply or are spread around to others, I think that's where consolidation to me has been positive. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17085             A weak player would have great difficulty in being able to support whether it's an aboriginal voice or another diverse voice because they would have difficulty in maintaining their own.  So, that's where I see that certain consolidation and strengthening of some of the players has benefited us.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When I visited you and you pointed out to me your very successful partnership with CTV, to take one example. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17087             But, surely that also strengths to CTV, I mean, and the argument you've just made could one say just the opposite, could one say, for instance, the new Rogers CITI, if we approve that a transaction will ‑‑ and put aside from a partnership as you would make themselves in effect be able to reach a wider audience and have a better coverage and, therefore, we can ‑‑ actually several owners rather than as in a few owners is to your advantage rather than to your disadvantage?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17088             MR. LAROSE:  That's quite correct.  But several strong owners is to our advantage.  If there were several or one strong owner and several weak ones, I think the strong one would be to our benefit, the weak ones may not be as much.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17089             I mean, I think in this case, you're quite right that we can turn the argument around and that's certainly where I think the policy area needs to come in to play to ensure that if we do have more than one or two or three players, but they are strong players, that they need to be mandated within the framework of the regulations to ensure that there is place for the diversity of voices and that those voices are heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17090             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your first recommendation says that CRTC and I take a ‑‑ sorry, I'm looking at the wrong ones.  On benefits; we have a policy, you are very complementary you say it has done a lot for you, et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17091             Is it good enough for us to maintain our existing benefits policy or does it need to be fine tuned in this regard, to your concerns?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17092             MR. LAROSE:  I think fine tuning would greatly enhance it.  The benefits policy per see has been very good to APTN.  There could be some improvements in how the benefits are sometimes directed. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17093             In some cases they are directed to the aboriginal production community where basically it's an indirect way for the broadcaster or the BDU to resend the money back to itself by providing the money to an independent producer for programming for their own entity and sometimes that programming isn't given the opportunity to be aired at a time where it actually has an impact.  So, from our end, I think a lot of the benefit could be fine tuned. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17094             As an example where it's directed to APTN for an aboriginal production, that would then be shown jointly on both that broadcaster that provides the benefit as well as APTN and that has a two‑fold impact.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17095             Within our audience and within our community a lot of people do focus a lot on APTN.  So, to see something both appearing on the network as well as mainstream will give them a sense that, in fact, their story is being heard not only by themselves, but by others and we want to make sure that the benefits do provide for that opportunity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17096             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Doesn't that come a bit close to us directing, and take CTV as an example, in effect the scheduling of CTV and what they put on the airwaves?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17097             MR. LAROSE:  I don't think it would be ‑‑ it would be to that level because if the benefit, as an example, the current one we negotiated with CTV, provides for us to jointly develop a drama series that will air jointly on both networks, I think that if that was in any way shape or form sort of a mandated element, I don't think it would be necessarily you directing the scheduling, but it would be you as a regulator ensuring that diversity of voice is not only directed to the smaller entities, but it also becomes part of the mainstream, the bigger entities. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17098             I think it's important for Canadians who, you know, by the millions tune in a CTV or a CanWest Global tonight have the opportunity to maybe hear other voices as well within that mix, because I think the entire goal promoting diversity is to give them access to mainstream, access to the bigger players, not only marginalizing them on smaller networks.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17099             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  Now, in terms of AVR, you've stated in your presentation your mandate is to broadcast in large urban centres in Canada and that's what you do and you broadcast obviously for aboriginal communities in those large urban areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17100             I've just this summer went to Saskatchewan and visited the radio station up in Lorange, Missinipi, who have a very strong station and several repeaters and they've told me anywhere in Saskatchewan you can hear Missinipi and, actually, that is the best way to serve the aboriginal community because even the urban ones will come, most of them, from a reserve from rural communities, that's where they're born, that's what their interests are. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17101             If you're alienated sometimes, lost in the urban centre and so, therefore, producing shows from up Lorange and giving everything from their perspective itself is a very strong and necessary bond and they have a huge audience and that's really what the aboriginal community requires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17102             Now, you have a different model.  You're urban and this is not so and I wonder whether you can explain to me, now are these complementary, are they different or who is right, who is wrong?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17103             MR. HILL:  Mr. Chairman, I think they are probably complementary.  The majority of aboriginal people in Canada do live and reside in urban centres.  So, I think even in my own family, what you are referring to happens quite a bit across all aboriginal communities where people live in urban centres like to maintain ties with their family in aboriginal communities that are not in the urban centres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17104             But I think that the fact that the majority of them do reside in the cities and it is beneficial for people travelling to, for instance, an Indian Reserve, to be able to hear aboriginal programming there.  But it's a small percentage of their time spent there compared to where they live.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17105             So, I think it is important that aboriginal programming can be heard where they live. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17106             I guess that's the primary answer to that type of question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17107             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you do not see yourself, to take this case of Saskatchewan, you haven't started a radio station in Regina in competition of this Missinipi, you are in effect complementary you're telling me?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17108             MR. HILL:  Yes.  I don't think we are ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17109             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am just taking it because I know them and I don't mean to pick on them.  I take that station ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17110             MR. HILL:  Yes.  I don't view aboriginal voices radio is in competition with any of those broadcasters because they are not broadcasting in the cities where we broadcast and, you know, so ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But they have repeater stations all over I'm told and I am told they can receive the signal throughout Saskatchewan.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17112             MR. HILL:  Well, in Saskatoon, I think there is a repeater and I think you've licensed one in Regina recently and I think the Saskatoon one was there. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17113             I know there is a repeater station I think in Winnipeg, but I don't think that our service, we are playing predominantly all aboriginal music.  I am not sure that's that exactly what they are doing, so I don't think we are in competition with them in that respect.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17114             If we were playing the same format and pursuing the same type of advertising revenues in those cities, there might some case made for competition, but since we are not doing those two things, I don't think we are competing with them.  I do think that we are complementary.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17115             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You state that your programming is targeted specifically to the needs and interest of aboriginal peoples all across Canada, whether Indian, Inuit or Metis background?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17116             MR. HILL:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17117             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How do you think it balances?  I mean, the interest of Inuits and Indians may not be the same.  They may actually be quite different, they may be contrary to each other and how do you make sure ‑‑ how do you select your programming so you have to make sure that you have ‑‑ first of all, you reach ‑‑ all the rating doesn't balance and that you represent all these points of views?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17118             MR. HILL:  Well, for instance, in the area of music, we select, we try to select as diverse a mix of artists as possible.  There are Inuit artists that we do play on the radio, that as well as selecting in diversity of musical genres. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17119             So, there is a great diversity as far as what we do compared to commercial broadcaster where the programming genres or musical genres for instance might be quite narrow.  We are very diverse, very eclectic and we do make an effort to incorporate all voices, all aboriginal voices into a mix. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17120             For instance, one of the things we have done for a long term is a Metis show.  We have an actual Metis show devoted to Metis artists.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17121             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And is the music mostly in English or is it also in the aboriginal languages and if we take Indian music, for instance?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17122             MR. HILL:  We have a percentage that's in aboriginal languages.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17123             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  And in terms of funding, which seems to be your main preoccupation and I understand your desire for more and regular funding, but I don't see anything concretely that you suggest. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17124             I mean, do you have anything specific in mind?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17125             MR. HILL:  Yes.  We're actually putting something together, Chairman, and we're formulating those plans now as to what we feel would be an appropriate level to deliver high quality and adequate programming to these communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17126             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  Okay.  Thank you.  André, I believe you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17127             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Oui.  Monsieur Larose, est‑ce que je peux vous poser ma question en français?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17128             M. LAROSE:  Oui, absolument.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17129             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  D'accord. 

‑‑‑ Pause

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17130             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Moi, je voudrais revenir à la question du statut 91H et de l'accès dont vous avez parlé tout à l'heure.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17131             Juste pour qu'on se comprenne bien, le statut 91H vous garantit l'accès sur le service de base de l'entreprise de distribution, que ce soit le satellite ou le câble.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17132             M. LAROSE:  Hum‑hum!  C'est ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17133             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Mais ça ne vous garantit pas une place de choix sur le cadran.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17134             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17135             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  C'est ça.  Alors, l'effet... est‑ce que je me trompe si je vous dis que l'effet de ça, c'est que sur les postes de télévision ou, en tout cas, du moins en distribution analogique, en distribution numérique avec les set‑up boxes, ça devient beaucoup moins important, mais en distribution analogique, si vous avez un téléviseur, un poste de télévision qui est un peu... un peu ancien, si on vous met à 117, il n'y a personne qui va vous prendre.  C'est ça?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17136             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  C'est le défi auquel on fait face parce que même si ce n'était pas une place de choix, disons, même si on ne donnait pas le poste 15 ou 14 ou 12, si j'étais quelque part où le téléspectateur dans son *clicotage+habituel pouvait me voir, ce serait déjà encourageant. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17137             Mais quand je suis à 100 à Winnipeg, ce que ça veut dire, c'est que quelqu'un qui fait la série analogique frappe la série digitale puis, je veux dire, s'il est sur le service de base, il frappe de la neige après 30 quelque, il ne nous trouvera jamais puis c'est ce qui arrive.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17138             Et ce qu'il y a de surprenant puis ce qu'il y a de décourageant des fois, c'est autant je me promène à travers le pays puis, je veux dire, je me promène toujours, je m'arrange pour avoir un manteau, quelque chose qui est avec notre logo pour essayer de faire de la publicité en même temps, autant j'ai des Canadiens qui me disent:  Ah! APTN, oui, le poste indien ou quelque autre appellation qu'ils peuvent me donner, autant d'autres vont me dire : c'est quoi ça!  Et lorsqu'on leur dit, bien, ils n'en sont absolument pas au courant.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17139             Alors, ce que ça me dit, c'est que quand on est placé dans la stratosphère du cadran télévisuel, nos chances d'être retrouvés par les individus, les téléspectateurs, sont de beaucoup minimisées puis lorsqu'on a aussi certains problèmes avec certains d'entre eux qui ne nous affichent pas régulièrement sur le canal qui affiche la programmation, à ce moment‑là on a un double problème.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17140             C'est que non seulement le monde ne nous trouve pas, mais ils n'ont rien pour leur indiquer où on est.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17141             Alors, c'est à ce moment‑là qu'on a des problèmes et c'est pour ça que je dis le 91H autant nous a permis de prendre un service et le développer au point où on peut aujourd'hui chercher à s'afficher comme le quatrième réseau national...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17142             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Je peux vous dire que sur Vidéotron vous êtes quand même assez... assez bien placé.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17143             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  Ce n'est pas une critique pour tout le monde parce qu'il y en a qui nous placent très bien.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17144             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Non, non, non, mais parce que, moi, j'ai Vidéotron chez moi et c'est... vous êtes assez bien placé.  Mais il reste que si vous avez un téléviseur un peu ancien et qui s'arrête à 99, si on vous met à 100, vous n'êtes pas visible?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17145             M. LAROSE:  Exactement.  Puis, à ce moment‑là, je crois que ça va un peu contre la décision de la Commission qui était de s'assurer qu'on était un service de base.  Si on n'est pas sur le téléviseur mon argument est : on n'est plus de base.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17146             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Je vous remercie.  C'était ma question.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17147             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ron, I believe you have some questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17148             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning.  Mr. Larose, has APTN considered using subtitles when broadcasting programming in aboriginal languages to appeal to a wider audience?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17149             MR. LAROSE:  Yes.  In fact, I think pretty well all of our language programming has subtitles, but some of it is close captioned and the reason for that is mainly because there is, as you know, quite a concern in our community about language loss.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17150             Some of our producers and especially some language groups are very concerned about the rapid loss of language and there is concern that by putting open captioning on it, it would also undermine the intent of trying to get people to reconnect to the language or to get used to hearing it and understanding it without reading it in English to sort of may take the easy way out, if I wished ‑‑ if I can say it that way.  So, that's why we have close captioned it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17151             But it's an issue within both the network and within our viewers because many of them who have lost the language don't necessarily have close captioning capabilities on their sets and some of them can't actually turn it on to ‑‑ turn on the subtitling.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17152             So, we are working with producers and one of the things we are looking at down the road is... will be to get programming in more than one version, audio versions, so that we cannot only hear in aboriginal languages but also at another time repeat it, but in English or in French so that we have the opportunity to present the same program, but with different audio versions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17153             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That's my question, Mr. Chair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17154             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17155             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Oui.  La question que j'aimerais poser, elle est plutôt... cette question‑là est plutôt d'ordre philosophique.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17156             J'aimerais savoir dans quel esprit vous travaillez et qu'est‑ce qui serait le mieux, qu'est‑ce qui est le mieux pour la diversité au Canada?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17157             Est‑ce que, par exemple, une approche qui serait de consolider les voix autochtones, les favoriser, les cultiver, les enraciner?  Autrement dit, une approche très, disons, autochtone, très ethnique ou une autre approche qui consisterait à exprimer ces voix dans des audiences plus larges, sans détruire l'autre partie, mais simplement en terme d'orientation?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17158             Et dans ce sens‑là, est‑ce que vous faites des publicités si c'est une option, pour élargir vos audiences?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17159             Alors, je ne sais pas, c'est une question un peu philosophique que je vous pose, mais où est le focus et quel serait fondamentalement la meilleure façon d'augmenter la diversité au pays? 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17160             Est‑ce que c'est en se concentrant dans une première approche ou d'essayer, dans une deuxième, d'exprimer les valeurs des communautés que vous desservez?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17161             M. LAROSE:  La question va à l'essence d'un débat présentement dans la communauté et la vaste... je devrais dire dans les communautés parce qu'il faut s'entendre que les Premières Nations sont aussi différentes des Inuits que des Métis qu'à l'intérieur des Premières Nations il y a énormément de différence aussi parce que, après tout, il y a 52 groupes linguistiques, et caetera.  Ce n'est pas un groupe homogène.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17162             Ce que APTN cherche à faire, c'est un peu un mélange des deux perspectives dont vous mentionnez.  Autant de débats au Québec en ce qui a trait au lien entre la langue, la culture, l'histoire et tout ça, nous a amenés à reconnaître certains éléments qui sont vraiment spécifiques à l'historique québécoise, pour ce qui est des Premières Nations et des peuples autochtones, le débat est le même.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17163             Autant la question linguistique, culturelle et autres doit être maintenue par une force, une concentration et une tentative de préservation de tous ces éléments‑là, sinon on passe peut‑être de l'histoire au folklore, c'est le même et ça a été et ce sera encore probablement le même débat qu'on a eu au Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17164             Alors, ce que nous cherchons à faire, c'est de préserver à travers une certaine programmation justement ces éléments‑là qui sont vraiment spécifiques à chacune des cultures, mais en même temps trouver un moyen de les partager avec le reste des Canadiens et de plus en plus avec le reste du monde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17165             On n'a pas trouvé la formule magique encore parce que aussi bien au niveau de notre conseil d'administration qu'au niveau de nos producteurs, au niveau de même à l'interne chez nous, les employés, il y a toujours ce débat‑là, à savoir : est‑ce qu'on va trop loin pour chercher à faire connaître nos histoires aux Canadiens en laissant aller nos langues un peu puis en trouvant des moyens pour, disons, ouvrir notre programmation, de sorte qu'on perd le focus vers nos propres gens ou est‑ce qu'on devrait... d'autres disent, c'est la façon de le faire, on devrait en avoir plus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17166             Alors, justement parce que c'est une question au niveau philosophique, il n'y a pas de réponse spécifique.  Ce qu'on cherche à atteindre, c'est un équilibre entre les deux tendances.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17167             CONSEILLÈRE MORIN:  Vous avez dit : *le reste du monde+.  Est‑ce que vous pensez qu'il y aurait une possibilité à ce niveau‑là pour les nations autochtones, les Premières Nations?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17168             M. LAROSE:  Il y en a déjà une.  On a lancé cette semaine un site internet qui s'appelle *Le tambour digital, a digital drum+, qui, justement, a certains éléments de notre programmation, certains éléments de la langue, de la culture et tout ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17169             Et en partie le site a été lancé parce qu'on avait des demandes à la fois de l'Allemagne, de l'Australie et de la Nouvelle‑Zélande, de Taïwan, énormément d'endroits à travers le monde où il y a des groupes autochtones qui font face aux mêmes défis auxquels on fait face ici, la demande était vraiment et de plus en plus croissante pour que APTN partage ses histoires à l'échelle du monde.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17170             Au niveau des tribus américaines parce qu'ils se réfèrent comme tribus aux États, on a encore cette semaine deux requêtes pour que notre programmation soit envoyée aux États et diffusée dans certaine des réserves américaines.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17171             Alors, je crois qu'il y a non seulement un marché, mais un marché à développer puis encore là, c'est un défi.  Avec les ressources qu'on a présentement, ça va être de trouver une façon et même est‑ce que le temps est propice pour se lancer dans ce domaine‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17172             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Michel, do you have any questions?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17173             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.  Mr. Hill, I was wondering if you had any comments to make on the question that Commissioner Morin asked because it also applies to AVR, the concept.  The philosophical question that Mr. Morin asked I think surely AVR has a view about that. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17174             Could we hear your view?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17175             MR. HILL:  Yes.  Thank you, vice‑chairman.  I think that we probably feel that it's better to have both.  Certainly the wider audience of the commercial broadcasters if you're going to air aboriginal programming in that way, you're reaching a lot of people presumably.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17176             On the other hand, I think it's important that aboriginal media organizations have the opportunity to produce and select what they think is appropriate within the ‑‑ I guess the cultures of aboriginal peoples.  So, there is a selection issue as well in a commercial broadcasting where you know there are different, I guess motivations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17177             For instance, they have to survive, for instance, in a manner different than someone such as a non‑profit like AVR, just their survival is that they have to take a different approach.  So, the selection of programming would be different than someone like aboriginal voices radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17178             We are non‑profit more I guess based upon cultural programming as opposed to having to deal with the pressures of, you know, gaining an audience with your programming.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17179             The other thing is it's probably easier to locate aboriginal voices radio as far as if you're looking for aboriginal programming, you know, you could argue that as long as the Canadian public is aware that it's there, that they can go there any time and hear aboriginal artists.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17180             So, that's the argument for having the aboriginal media dissemination of programming as far as commercial broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17181             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Larose, I am picking up on madam Noël's questions, line of questions, and this variation on basic and sometime on cable basic is spread over ‑‑ is basic like the first 20 some channels, then it goes higher than 70 or sometime higher than 100.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17182             Does being carried ‑‑ and you gave the example of Winnipeg where you're based, were being carried above the 100, does it have any impact on your ability to sell advertising?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17183             MR. LAROSE:  Well, it definitely does.  If only because people don't even know we exist often and the same applies to advertisers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17184             The other key factor is that with one BDU in particular, the change is almost monthly lately.  Since last Fall, we've been bounced all over, almost on a monthly basis.  People who finally track us back after a month lose us again.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17185             I think from that perspective probably the most frustrating part is that while we will try to ‑‑ we set an advertising campaign to say you'll now find us on 100.  Well, by the time the campaign goes out, we're 103.  So they turn to 100 and they will find CPAC or whoever else ends up having been bounced up there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17186             So, I think where I think that ‑‑ what I alluded to earlier where I think that some are taking, for lack of a better term, liberties with the spirit and intent of the 91H decision is to, yes, we're on basic, but basic has many definitions and, in this case, basic is stratosphere. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17187             You know, maybe if you're a space shuttle, it's a great location to be, you're away up there, but I mean that wasn't our intent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can speak from personal experience because after I visited you, I went home, I'm a satellite subscriber and I found you in the 500, which certainly didn't correspond to my notion of basics, you know.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17189             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So, that was my question, Mr. Chair.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17190             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I appreciated your presentation.  I think those are our questions for you.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17191             Madam Boulet, we will take how long a break?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17192             THE SECRETARY:  We'll take 15‑minute break, we'll be back at 1030.  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17193             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recessed at 1014 / Suspension à 1014

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1031 / Reprise à 1031

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17194             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, Madam Boulet, who is next?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17195             THE SECRETARY:  Merci, Monsieur le Président.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17196             We will now proceed with the following two interveners, the National Campus and Community Radio Association and Mr. John Harris Stevenson.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17197             We will start with the National Campus' presentation.  Ms Melissa Kaestner will present her colleague, after which you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17198             Ms Kaestner.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 17199             MS KAESTNER:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17200             Good morning, everybody.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17201             My name is Melissa Kaestner and I'm the National Coordinator of the National Campus and Community Radio Association.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17202             I've worked in radio for 14 years, getting my start in commercial radio in the U.S. in 1993.  I found my passion for campus and community radio in 1997 at CHSR‑FM in Fredericton.  From there I went to Toronto and did a short stint as music director at CHRY before moving on to Montreal and then Ottawa to work with the NCRA for more than five years ‑‑ or more than five years ago.  Currently I am a volunteer at CHUO‑FM in Ottawa.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17203             MR. LIGHT:  My name is Evan Light.  I began volunteering at a small college station in the woods of New Jersey in 1993 and have been active at CKOT radio in Montreal since 1995.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17204             I'm a doctoral candidate in communications at Université de Montréal ‑‑ du Québec au Montréal where I specialize in independent media and the democratic management of the radio spectrum.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17205             I also volunteer with AMARC the World Association of Community Broadcasters as a policy specialist and member of AMARC's North American steering committee.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17206             Today I'm here as a board member of the National Campus and Community Radio Association representing the region of Quebec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17207             MS PENHALE:  My name is Joanne Penhale and I started at CJSF in Burnaby, B.C. five years ago as a volunteer programmer.  I've since been involved as a board member, staff and then, again, as a volunteer at two other community‑oriented campus radio stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17208             I've also completed a post‑grad journalism program and have worked in the private sector as a journalist.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17209             Both the non‑profit and private sectors of media have their strengths, but I continue to volunteer in the campus and community radio sector because I respect its goals.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17210             Today I'm representing the NCRA as a board member.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17211             A month ago Evan and I drove across much of Canada in my '89 Corolla which only has a radio.  We left from Victoria, went to Vancouver, up into northern B.C., across Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, through northern Ontario and then down through northern Quebec into Montreal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17212             Each region was vastly different from the next.  Each rural community and city we drove through has its own distinct history, cultural identity, industries, landscape and unique mix of people, all with stories to tell.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17213             On long stretches of the TransCanada Highway we'd often hit the scan button on the radio and sometimes it was an hour before we'd pick up a frequency.  Many times what came through was CBC Radio One, programming almost entirely produced in urban centres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17214             When we got lucky we found community radio.  Listening to these local broadcasts made me feel connected to the towns we were driving through.  We heard voices of local regular people from places we'd never been to, talking about something happening that night in the community or playing music they chose and love and music that I'd never heard before.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17215             From region to region, however, the most typical radio we found sounded just like the radio I might find in Vancouver or Victoria or Toronto and, while it was better than nothing, it didn't reflect a unique regional diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17216             MS KAESTNER:  The National Campus and Community Radio Association is a national association of volunteer‑based, non‑profit, community‑oriented radio broadcasters.  The NCRA represents 47 members including campus, community, instructional and developmental stations in urban and rural locations across Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17217             The programming of our stations is produced by an estimated 4,500 volunteers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17218             While each of our member stations has their own unique characteristics generally reflective of the unique communities they serve, there are many qualities that campus and community radio stations have in common.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17219             We have open participatory access assuring diversity of membership across ranges of age, income, education, race, ethnicity, language, gender, sexual orientation and ability.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17220             Our spoken word content is dictated by the needs and desires of the community each station serves and the variety of music played by all of our stations is vast, including local musicians who sometimes go on to commercial success.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17221             Our stations are independent and non‑profit.  They are not restrained by a need to turn profits for shareholders, satisfy advertisers and they will never be at risk of being purchased or consolidated with other stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17222             Each station fills its programming day with shows produced and hosted by volunteers from vastly different backgrounds, all drawn from the community who make their own editorial decisions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17223             On average this amounts to more than 100 different independent editorial voices on each station per week.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17224             MS PENHALE:  The local impact of campus and community radio stations is huge.  Because they are accessible and locally oriented, the impact of these stations resonates with local communities.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17225             Stations interact with these communities in three primary ways.  First, by engaging local audiences with broadcasts on local topics that are relevant to their lives and exposing audiences to ideas, information and music that is otherwise not readily available.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17226             Second, the physical station itself is a convergent point for people and groups with various backgrounds and perspectives, making stations sites for dialogue, network building and cross‑cultural exchanges.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17227             Finally, every day local people who often have no other interaction with media are sought out by programmers to share their ideas and stories on air, giving those people a sense of validation and belonging in the community they live in.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17228             For further evidence of this impact, we've included in our submission several testimonies from staff and volunteers about the nature and impact of campus community radio stations in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17229             MR. LIGHT:  There's an increasing demand on the campus community radio sector as commercial media becomes more centralized, homogenized and less locally oriented.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17230             Our stations have an enormous responsibility which they take very seriously to provide audiences programming that isn't available on other frequencies in the region.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17231             As more and more local stories are left uncovered by commercial media and the CBC, there's a greater demand on us to ensure those voices are heard.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17232             While we have this responsibility, our sector has an overwhelming need for financial stability.  The NCRA has partnered with ARC du Canada and ARC du Québec to develop an independent funding body for Canadian community radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17233             Within two weeks of this hearing, an application will be filed for incorporation of the Community Radio Fund of Canada.  We have submitted our current proposal, Appendix No. 2, for this Fund as part of our presentation today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17234             Through the Fund, community radio stations and associations hope to attain fiscal security so they can better uphold their role in the Canadian broadcasting sector.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17235             Some examples of initiatives that could be funded are:

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17236             Resource building.  Some campus and community radio stations have great difficulty acquiring simple equipment like portable audio recorders, computers and sound boards.  A basic standard of technological resources would optimize capacity for volunteers across Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17237             Ground wire news.  Sustainable funding would allow the NCRA to launch a national newscast that covers topics untouched by commercial media and which covers a diversity of perspectives on national issues.  The ground wire news project already has a detailed plan and budget but requires staff with an estimated cost of $10,000 to launch a pilot series.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17238             Thirdly, rural station development.  Many small communities across Canada have no commercial media or CBC presence.  With adequate resources, the NCRA can provide support to any group of people from these communities who want to have a local independent non‑profit media presence.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17239             Over the long term, it is our desire to work with the CRTC and Canadian Heritage to develop mechanisms through which our sector can be adequately supported and maintained.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17240             Commercial stations for decades have used the public air waves for private profit.  If a small percentage of these profits is directed towards the non‑profit radio sector, we will be better enabled to give the public access to their own air waves.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17241             Among possible solutions, we recommend that the Commission re‑examine the distribution of CCD benefits.  As we've stated in our written submission today and in previous audiences with the CRTC, we believe the commercial broadcasting benefits policy in its current form does not adequately support the development of a richly diverse and innovative Canadian cultural sector.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17242             We call upon the Commission to re‑examine the benefits policy in full, assuring that it contributes to the development of Canadian content as a cultural rather than commercial product.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17243             The Community Radio Fund of Canada can play such a role as a guaranteed recipient of the benefits policy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17244             We also recommend a more transparent and communicative benefits allocation process.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17245             The Fund has sought and continues to seek voluntary partnerships with commercial media for funding, but has not had success to date.  While we encourage these voluntary contributions from the commercial sector, sustainable funding for our sector cannot be assured without mandated contributions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17246             MS PENHALE:  Ultimately the NCRA wants every market, small and large, to have a sustainable community radio presence, however, licence allocations for such stations are not currently guaranteed.  For instance, Kelowna, B.C. is without a single community or campus community broadcaster.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17247             While there is one in development, 11 commercial broadcasters have recently applied for licences in this market.  If all these applications are approved, spectrum scarcity could leave Kelowna and the surrounding area without an available frequency allocation for a community‑based broadcaster, regardless of the obvious need and interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17248             Additionally, unprotected developmental stations such as CJAI on Amherst Island in Ontario are increasingly in danger of losing their frequencies to commercial applicants without notice or recourse and are having difficulty locating another available frequency or lack the resources to move to high power.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17249             Given this reality, the NCRA recommends the CRTC reserve a protected licence in each market for at least one community radio station, even where none currently exists, and work in collaboration with Industry Canada to ensure that a frequency remains available in each market to service these licences.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17250             MR. LIGHT:  Finally, in choosing or defining a digital broadcast standard, the NCRA recommends that the CRTC and Industry Canada consult equally with all three broadcasting sectors, assuring that digital transition and related policies are developed in the interest of furthering diversity of the broadcasting system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17251             We value the opportunity to present to you today and invite all the Commissioners, Staff and anyone in this room to visit any of the NCRA campus or community stations across the country or just to tune into one.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17252             We welcome your questions now.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17253             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17254             We will now proceed with Mr. John Harris Stevenson's presentation.  Please go ahead.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 17255             MR. STEVENSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17256             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17257             My name is John Harris Stevenson, I am the President of CHUO‑FM here in Ottawa which is Canada's only fully bilingual community radio station.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17258             I sit on the advisory board of the National Campus and Community Radio Association and, in my spare time, I'm a doctoral student at the University of Toronto researching new media regulation and the public interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17259             Over the past few days listening to these proceedings I've noticed that the very notion of diversity is being contested.  Programming choice is important, but I believe our interest is more fundamental.  The open and free exchange of information, opinion and culture is central to our democracy and to our economy.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17260             History seems to indicate that as beneficial as an open market for ideas might be, it is something that must be chosen, built and nurtured.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17261             In our context, diversity means the availability of a wide range of unique perspectives which allow us to make better decisions about our lives and our society.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17262             In my written submission I describe some of the characteristics of the current mass media environment which should be considered when making policy in a world of both greater choice and increased concentration of media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17263             This discussion cannot be reduced to a simplistic attack on commercial media as a whole.  Private media has a place in any media environment and can serve the public interest in several ways, however, Canada's media scape is at this moment in history overwhelmingly dominated by the commercial media model and I believe that the dominance of any single organizational model for media makes true diversity more difficult.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17264             As I wrote, within a competitive environment all media institutions, commercial, public and community will attempt to maximize the welfare of their owners and stakeholders.  This is expressed in a variety of ways from overt control of editorial policy to a more common and subtle bias.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17265             The pioneering work of economist Thomas Schelling in the 1970s showed that small, individual biases on the part of decision‑makers can result, on aggregate, in overwhelmingly biased outcomes for which no one person or group seems to be responsible.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17266             There is likely no means by which this sort of bias could be eliminated, nor would that be a desired objective.  In a democratic society media owners and stakeholders have the right to express their opinions as do others, including producers, reporters, program hosts and guests.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17267             Some have suggested this week that consolidation leads to greater diversity.  This is simply not supported by real world evidence.  According to Mulhulathan (ph) and Schlaefer (ph) of MIT and the National Bureau of Economic Research, diversity of audiology correlates with diversity of media ownership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17268             As well, and I think this is quite important, commercial media owners, whatever their differing interests and opinions on other matters, will typically be biased toward commercial media models and business‑oriented policy generally.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17269             Again, these opinions are legitimate and they should be part of the public discourse, but they should not dominate or be the only set of opinions available to the public.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17270             Related to audiological bias is the problem of scope; that is, the range of opinion and amount of information that is available to the public through mass media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17271             American Communications researcher Jim Kypers (ph) has conducted extensive content studies of mainstream media coverage in the United States focusing on the differences between information supplied to the media, such as political speeches, and how this information is reported.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17272             His work, which sits outside the usual audiological debates about media bias, has consistently shown that the mainstream media operate within a very narrow range of political beliefs.  A wide range of minority views across the ideological spectrum are typically ignored.  Kypers (ph) argues that the North American media, in fact, stifles alternative voices and paints an incredibly inaccurate picture of issues and ideas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17273             The danger of this narrowness is that the public has little or no idea what they are not being told.  One of the reasons for this narrowness of scope is, ironically, commercial competition.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17274             In a competitive environment, information can be simplified or exaggerated to make a story more interesting and, therefore, more appealing to audiences.  This can be seen in the history of, for example, CNN.  It was once the only all‑news provider in the cable TV space in North America but, in the face of increased competition, CNN has moved away from traditional reporting to present more programming which is, in the words of a network executive, more emotionally gripping.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17275             Scope relates to another characteristic of the current media system in Canada; the emergence of a two‑tiered environment.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17276             Traditional mass media, newspapers, radio and television, typically use open technological standards and are distributed using public conveyances.  However, many newer media technologies, cable television, satellite radio and TV, some forms of digital radio and broadcasting to mobile phones, use proprietary technologies and closed private distribution systems.  The owners of these closed systems often enjoy natural monopolies and can pick and choose what content to make available to their customers.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17277             The limitations of these emerging systems are most apparent in the world of Internet access and Internet service providers are the ultimate information gate keepers.  Most exist in monopoly or duo‑monopoly environments with limited consumer choice.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17278             Canada's telecommunications and cable companies are exploring the option of preferential treatment for some content providers which they own or with whom they have business relationships.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17279             Bell Canada, which controls the bulk of Canada's Internet backbone, has stated that network diversity or neutrality should be determined by market forces and not by regulations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17280             And ISPs do use their powers as gate keepers.  In 2005, Telus Corporation blocked its customers' access to the website of a union engaged in a labour dispute with the company.  By its actions Telus also accidentally blocked an additional 766 other websites.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17281             In this environment, how can we encourage and protect real diversity?  First, the Commission should place an immediate moratorium on future mergers until clear and understandable limits on concentration of ownership have been put into place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17282             This will be a significant challenge, but the recommendations made this week by the CBC and others represent a realistic starting point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17283             I would recommend that the Commission initiate a study or a meta study of similar rules in other jurisdictions examining the circumstances of countries ranked in media diversity measures such as the Reporters Without Borders World Wide Press Freedom Index.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17284             The Commission can be more proactive in creating the research necessary for policy making.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17285             Second, and I believe more important, the Commission can take a more active role in the development of independent and community media.  This means licensing independent and smaller commercial applicants as well as working with the community media sector to make it a full partner in our country's media system.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17286             Canadian governments and broadcast regulators have, in the past, taken too passive an approach to the development of community media depending heavily on the centralized public broadcaster as a counterweight to the increased commercialization of the media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17287             A primary objective for the Commission could be the development of mechanisms for community media capacity building in partnership with community media producers and other stakeholders.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17288             Innovation happens at the margins of the mainstream and true diversity depends on it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17289             Third, the Commission might address the emerging two‑tiered media which is seeing an increase in closed networks and proprietary distribution technologies.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17290             The Commission could require Canadian licensed satellite radio providers and similar services to provide a reasonable portion of band width to third party independent and community media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17291             More importantly, the Commission could issue clear regulations concerning the conduct of Internet service and backbone providers that embody the core principles of network openness; freedom to access content, freedom to run applications and freedom to attach devices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17292             Finally, I suggest that the Commission examine its consultative processes with the objective of broader public involvement.  You call this process a public process, but few members of the public have been able to participate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17293             I notice that many important submissions from the public have been lumped under the heading of "In Comment:  Numerous Letters on the CRTC Website" with no indication of how many were submitted, who sent them or in partnership with what organizations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17294             It is no wonder that this proceeding is dominated by stakeholders who have a clear and usually commercial interest in the outcome.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17295             I fear that your public process is impenetrable to the majority of Canadians and that this could lead to an unfortunate level of cynicism about your decisions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17296             I urge you to reach out to ordinary Canadians who care deeply about their country and its media, but who have no means to effectively tell you what they think.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17297             Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17298             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your thoughtful interventions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17299             Let me first deal with the NCCRA.  You are making a very strong plea that local and campus community radio stations have a big impact, huge as you said, and they're really the voice of the local community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17300             As part of my job I visit radio stations all across the country and there is not one who doesn't tell me that localness is the essence of radio, we depend on being local, we have to reflect the community, we have to be part of it and we pride ourself in our local roots and what we do, et cetera, and everybody explains to me ‑‑ which is quite an amazing array of activities that they have in order to.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17301             So, what do they do that you ‑‑ I mean, they have the same goal as you, to reflect the community et cetera.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17302             Why aren't they doing the job?  Why do you feel that ‑‑ you quite correctly say, they have their place, but we do something more than they do, whatever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17303             Maybe you could explain that to me.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17304             MR. LIGHT:  First, just for a clarification.  Have you visited any campus or community stations throughout the country during your visits?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17305             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17306             MR. LIGHT:  Which ones?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17307             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are asking me too much because I have visited by now about a hundred, but I have visited about dozens.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17308             MS PENHALE:  My opinion is that regardless of being commercial or non‑commercial, it's obvious that you can have a relationship with the people in your community when you're there, but when you're organized differently, in that you're non‑profit, you affect people differently because the content doesn't have to be commercially viable.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17309             It can be, for example, someone can come in and do sound art, they can play an hour of sounds that they've recorded in the woods.  It sounds sort of esoteric and obscure, but to some audience it's beautiful to turn that on and listen to that in their living room in the morning or whatever.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17310             There can also be room for obscure music genres or very in‑depth, long form radio documentaries that commercial, even local commercial broadcasters just don't have the capacity to play.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17311             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I was just struck by your comment in paragraph 12, you said:

                      "Commercial media becomes more centralized, homogenized and less locally oriented."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17312             As I said, commercial radios that I have spoken to have suggested...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17313             Now, you are saying they may be local but they are local commercial, anything local that is non‑commercial is nothing, they just ‑‑ they don't cover.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17314             I don't want to put words in your mouth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17315             MR. LIGHT:  I think we're talking about two different things.  One, that we understand small, independent local stations, but in these hearings we've heard other groups, commercial groups talk about how when CHUM and Bell Globemedia merged the very next day 280 staff, all primarily dedicated to local content, were laid off.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but that was television and we are talking radio now, right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17317             MS PENHALE:  We also ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17318             THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is a distinct difference when you talk to the radio ‑‑ I mean, for the radio people localness is sort of enshrined up here, is our mantra, that is why I'm picking on this point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17319             MR. LIGHT:  I think localness is also ‑‑ for us it's necessarily, it's participatory.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17321             MR. LIGHT:  None of you I'm sure can walk into a radio ‑‑ maybe you can ‑‑ but walk into a commercial or CBC station and produce your own program because you're a member of the local community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17322             And there's a huge difference in a commercial station providing content about the communities they live in and the communities themselves reflecting their values, reflecting their experiences on the air.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17323             MS PENHALE:  We also mentioned in our presentation that there's no risk or concern that our stations face for being consolidated with any other stations or purchased by someone in another location.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17324             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the other thing you suggest, you want to set up a national newscast.  Isn't that a contradiction in term?  I mean, you have just told me you are local, you want to reflect the local ‑‑ that part of the local community that doesn't find a voice or participation on commercial radio.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17325             Why then do you want to go national?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17326             MR. LIGHT:  I think it's not necessarily that we want to go national, we already coordinate nationally, we're many stations in the same position and we ‑‑ national news is an issue that lacks much independent coverage and a lot of our stations provide that coverage in their local context and share their experiences together.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17327             So, for us, we'd like to do both, we have strong local standing, strong local activity but, at the same time, we feel a great need to develop an independence nationally and an independent perspective on national politics, an independent perspective on everything that happens in this country.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17328             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, the national newscast would be more the emphasis on independent rather than the local connection that you have talked about so far?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17329             MS PENHALE:  Independent and in depth.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17330             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17331             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah, and incorporating views from a number of different areas.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17332             But I think it's also worth nothing that specifically for the NCRA in developing the ground wire news project, it has another function and, that is, there is a desire for our stations to create viable news departments, like just to even be able to have a locally‑based news program for a half an hour a day or even if it's to do, you know, smaller segments or larger segments.  Some stations do have hour ‑‑ daily hour newscasts.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17333             But we find that, you know, especially when a station is faced with fewer resources, they don't have staff, they don't have somebody dedicated to developing a news department.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17334             There's a lot of barriers to creating something that doesn't exist, and the NCRA have the desire to create the ground wire project to help out.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17335             I mean, in a sense it's almost like what AVR is doing, right.  If you want to establish news departments at stations across the country, having something like ground wire that ‑‑ well, okay, maybe you can't produce your local news there, you can start to incorporate elements of ground wire, use that as a training tool and those sorts of things.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17336             So, it's worth noting that there's two functions for that project.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17337             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17338             Mr. Harris, I listened to your presentation with great interest.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17339             You are at the wrong hearing, we are going to have a hearing on new media and I expect you will be there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17340             MR. STEVENSON:  I was just starting, really.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And a lot of things that you were saying is really very much applicable to that hearing.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17342             But, to the extent, I'm not suggesting you are at the wrong hearing, what I mean is I hope you will be there because a lot of the points that you are making are germane to what we are going to consider there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17343             But you mentioned one thing that really ‑‑ in paragraph 14 you talk about something called Reporters Without Borders World Wide Press Freedom Index.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17344             What is this animal, I have never heard of it?  And how do they measure ‑‑ freedom of the press, I guess, is what they are focusing on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17345             MR. STEVENSON:  They are a number of non‑governmental organizations internationally that are concerned with human rights and Reporters Without Borders, it's a ‑‑ I believe it's based in Paris.  They track harassment or government or corporate dangers to free expression to the free press.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17346             So, if a reporter is being held in a jail in a country, they will notify their membership.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17347             And every year they publish this press index.  So, they're actually an ongoing ‑‑ they're doing ongoing watchdog activities of essentially diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17348             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And Thomas Schelling's study which you referred to in paragraph 5.  Your summary says that:

                      "...individual biases on the part of decision‑makers can result, on aggregate, in overwhelmingly biased outcomes..."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17349             How am I supposed to read that?  Is this a reference to the ownership of newspapers' owners being reflected in a multi‑pedal way by the journalists who work for that owner?  Is that what you are getting at?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17350             MR. STEVENSON:  Schelling did work in the 70s on why housing segregation exists in the United States and he recorded very small biases on the part of homeowners in American cities to live near people like them.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17351             It wasn't ‑‑ he found that most people were not overly racist or strongly racist.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17352             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17353             MR. STEVENSON:  They were mildly ‑‑ they want to live near relatives or friends or what have you.  But, on aggregate, taken together a number of smaller decisions resulted in very severe segregation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17354             So, there has been discussion this week about, you know, why does bias happen, is there ‑‑ are people ‑‑ journalists influenced by the beliefs of the owners or the editors.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17355             And my point is that there may be ‑‑ I expect there are a number of small biases that people bring to the creation of content and that this results in what many people outside of commercial media would see as fairly significant biases against certain perspectives, particularly non‑commercial perspectives.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you working by analogy here?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17357             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17358             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17359             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17360             MR. STEVENSON:  Because this is a very difficult ‑‑ in preparation for this I did a lot of research on bias and, as you probably know, it's a very slippery research topic, it's filled with a lot of bias ‑‑ research bias itself.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17361             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And very difficult in evaluating data.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17362             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17363             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Great difficulty in evaluating data, you know, because there can be so many factors that impact on and produce a bias, to isolate one can be very difficult.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17364             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I think my colleagues have some questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17366             Andre?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17367             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  I will mainly ask you questions about the Community Radio Fund of Canada which I just received, so you will have to excuse me, I didn't have time to read it.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17368             But I noted that it's presented jointly with ARC du Canada and l'Association des readiofiffusseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17369             Am I correct?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17370             How does this document differ from the position you presented in the last radio policy review in the fall of 2006?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17371             Could you give us some ‑‑ you know, indicate or highlight what the modifications are.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17372             MR. LIGHT:  We haven't made any modifications, per se.  We figured there are new Commissioners on the Commission since that hearing, since the commercial policy review, so we wanted to take the opportunity to transmit the information in person to everyone.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17373             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  So, it's not a version 2, it's not a different document than ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17374             MR. LIGHT:  No, we're working from the same ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17375             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  The way you presented it in your oral presentation led me to believe that this is an entirely new document.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17376             MR. LIGHT:  No, it's the same document but we have made progress to the point where in two weeks or so from this hearing we will be filing for an incorporation of the Fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17377             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay.  Now, I do have a question concerning the funding of this Fund ‑‑ the funding of the Fund, yes.  It's a little pléonastique, as we say in French.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17378             In your written submission you say here:

                      "We ask that the Commission mandate commercial broadcasters to contribute a minimum of one per cent of Canadian content..."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17379             I would think that you mean development instead of benefits because you bracketed CCD:

                      "...on the Community Radio Fund of Canada."  (As read)

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17380             It's one per cent of what; one per cent of the envelope of contribution or it's one per cent of their revenues?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17381             MS KAESTNER:  We have, since the time perhaps before, but at least since the time of the commercial radio review, we had originally made a recommendation to increase the benefits from six to seven per cent, so we had proposed at that time that  one per cent should actually be added in as a mandatory requirement for the Fund and then that would still leave the one per cent discretionary allocations for broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17382             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But the six per cent, you are talking the benefits when there are transactions, or you are talking the yearly contribution to Canadian content development?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17383             MS KAESTNER:  It's for transactions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17384             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  For transactions.  So, it would be one per cent of the transaction price?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17385             MS KAESTNER:  Oh yes, yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17386             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay.  Because it's not quite clear what you have in mind here, one per cent of the ‑‑ okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17387             How does it mesh with what I have seen in the ‑‑ your colleagues of l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires who are squarely asking for half a per cent of revenues, because you say it's a common Fund and you're asking for one per cent of the tangible benefits payable on a transaction; they're asking for .5 per cent of gross revenues of the 10 largest broadcasters in Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17388             Did you have communications between yourself before you decided on who's asking what from whom?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17389             MS KAESTNER:  There have been communications.  I think that when ‑‑ the NCRA in preparing its submission we were trying to remain consistent with what we were asking for before, so I just think that that's part of the issue and I ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17390             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  So, there's been communications but not consensus?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17391             MS KAESTNER:  I wouldn't say that there hasn't been consensus, maybe it's more about specific communication on that detail.  Perhaps there has been just a lack of a detailed communication on that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17392             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Because this could mean a lot of difference in the number, you know, in the money that would be collected.  It's an entirely different ball game.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17393             MR. LIGHT:  I would say that we're open to both.  On one side we understand that the commercial policy was just reviewed and that reviewing the benefits policy within it would be ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17394             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Did you make any evaluation of what this would bring in in terms of dollars on an annual basis?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17395             MR. LIGHT:  For us there's no way to determine what the results of unforeseen mergers are going to be.  What we'd like to do is work with the Commission and Heritage to develop a regular sustainable funding mechanism for community broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17396             The benefits policy, it's not ideally what we want, it's what is there.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17397             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Wouldn't it be, I don't know, more productive if you could put your act together, all those organizations, before you come to us to ask us a piece of this and a piece of that and a piece of that and no evaluation is made of what it really means?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17398             Is that a yes?

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17399             MS KAESTNER:  Yes.  I think it's just ‑‑ I mean, speaking personally from my own personal standpoint there's just ‑‑ it's really, it's really hard to figure out what the best solution should be and, for me personally, I think that's just where some of the confusion is coming from.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17400             MR. LIGHT:  For us, I think we would much rather I think engage in real dialogue with the Commission and with Commission Staff about this instead of doing all of the development work ourselves and presenting a model that maybe doesn't work for the Commission.  We'd rather develop something in real partnership with the CRTC and with Heritage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17401             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But maybe you could prepare alternatives and put numbers on them, because here we are, you know, sort of pulling numbers out of a tree and it's a little difficult to see where you're going with your Fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17402             You say it's a united approach of the three associations, but ARC du Canada doesn't put any number on their initiative, you put one per cent of the tangible benefits and ARC ‑‑ l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec is at .5 per cent of gross revenues of the 10 largest broadcasters.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17403             So, we are all over the map here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17404             MR. LIGHT:  At the same time, I ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17405             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  We don't know where you're going.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17406             MR. LIGHT:  ‑‑ I believe when we presented the Fund in the commercial radio review and when we met with the Commission in person in May, we had said we would like a minimum of $5‑million annually coming from commercial radio through some mechanism.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17407             It could be benefits, it could be revenue, but that's a number and ideally we would like a Fund that can work with $18‑million annually with money being contributed from Heritage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17408             So, we have laid out ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17409             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But maybe you have a bit more homework to do to get us a position that is liveable because you don't even have projections of what these figures will yield in terms of benefits.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17410             I remember that you had some help from some broadcasters at the time, maybe those people can still help you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17411             MS KAESTNER:  We can try to ‑‑ we can try to put something together in the short term and submit it as part of our follow‑up to this proceeding, if time and resources allow for us to do that.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17412             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just one problem on your thing.  You want to work with the Commission.  That is really not our role, our role is a facilitator to furnish you with information and explain the regulatory system to you, but decisions which we make are based on submissions which come from stakeholders such as yours.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17413             We can't on the one hand sit down with you and work out a model and then have a public hearing saying, is this model acceptable.  You know, that's not how we work.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17414             So, while we facilitate and assist you, the initiative and the thinking and the conceptualization has to come from you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17415             MS PENHALE:  I just wanted to thank you and that we take your point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17416             The bottom line that we're presenting is that we have fiscally unsustainable organizations right now that rely ‑‑ that have been relying on these voluntary contributions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17417             And it is difficult for the three associations to work together.  For example, the two of us who have put together this presentation and the rest of the board are all volunteers that have regular day jobs and family commitments.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17418             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  But I remember when you came to the Commission you were in the good hands of Mr. Goldstein, I think, who was trying to help you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17419             MR. LIGHT:  In May?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17420             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17421             MR. LIGHT:  He was not with us, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17422             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  He was not with you but he helped you prepare that document; no?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17423             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17424             MR. LIGHT:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17425             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  David Goldstein?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17426             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17427             MR. LIGHT:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17428             MS KAESTNER:  No, he didn't.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17429             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  He didn't?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17430             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17431             COMMISSIONER NOËL:  Okay, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17432             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ron, I believe you have some questions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17433             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, Mr. Chair, thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17434             Mr. Stevenson, I have a few questions on your presentation, both written and oral today.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17435             You agree with the CBC's recommendations that the Commission limit single company ownership of media in a given market to 35 per cent of that market.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17436             Is that your own opinion, or would it have an impact on community and campus radio?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17437             MR. STEVENSON:  I would generally support that sort of ‑‑ that sort of limitation and style of limitation.  I think that the number is a judgment call.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17438             I'm more concerned about more non‑commercial voices in the mix.  As I said, I believe that the system is healthier if there are more non‑commercial voices.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17439             I also appreciate that consolidation is going to lead to a stronger set of media companies, I just think we have to strike a balance between too many and too few.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17440             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are there specific initiatives that you would recommend other than generally more non‑commercial broadcasting entities?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17441             And other than mandating a funding policy, what could the Commission do to ensure the survival and contribution of campus radio stations to the broadcasting system?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17442             MR. STEVENSON:  Outside of a funding mechanism?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17443             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17444             MR. STEVENSON:  I think that the Commission should ‑‑ and I know that the Chairman has stated that the Commission has to deal with alternatives and proposals ‑‑ but what I've seen in other jurisdictions, and most other jurisdictions in the western world is some sort of a policy or approach to non‑commercial media.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17445             And I know that the CRTC has a policy and I think it's time to refresh or renew that policy and see after 30 years, 35 years of licensing these kinds of entities where are we compared to other countries and what could we do to strengthen the sector generally, and not necessarily financially only, but through licensing and facilitating communication.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17446             If you look at the Canadian scene you'll notice that the Quebec community stations are ‑‑ they have quite a mature sector and that's because there was some strategic intervention early on in the development of those stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17447             We're seeing a similar kind of strategic intervention in the United Kingdom which has only had community radio for five or six years, but the regulator in the United Kingdom has a community radio program, a very limited set of funding aimed toward capacity building.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17448             And my fear is that in another five years we're going to have a very mature sector in the United Kingdom when in English Canada we won't have one just because a simple set of interventions from the government and from the regulator haven't taken place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17449             So, I think that the reality of dealing with these kinds of media is that the Commission has to take a little bit of a different role than it would adjudicating commercial licences or commercial disputes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17450             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17451             When assessing diversity of voices in a particular market, if there was a community campus radio station existing, should the Commission allow more concentration of ownership for private broadcasters in that type of scenario?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17452             MR. STEVENSON:  I would ‑‑ I think  that since in English Canada the vast majority of listening is to commercial media, probably about 90 per cent, the one to five per cent of listening represented by campus and community radio, it may not have enough of an impact in that community that I would change the numbers for that community in terms of 35 versus 40 per cent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17453             Again it's ‑‑ to me it's, part of the equation would have to be strengthening that existing non‑commercial licensee in that community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17454             Certainly the alternative that that campus community station would provide in that community would be important, but unless it's strengthened I wouldn't see any reduction in the numbers for concentration in that community.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17455             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You recommend that the Commission requires Canadian licensed satellite radio providers and similar services to provide a reasonable portion of band width to community broadcasting.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17456             Have you discussed this possibility with any of the satellite providers?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17457             MR. STEVENSON:  During the satellite radio process, the licensing process which is now several years ago, we made an intervention to that effect and we attempted to speak with the people who were running those bids at that time.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17458             CHUM at that point was ‑‑ had a bid on the table and we developed a relationship with them that would have resulted in access to band width.  Unfortunately, CHUM did not proceed with their service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17459             We've had some minimal contact with XM Radio, we have made some suggestions to them.  They have said that they are not interested in this point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17460             Sirius Canada, unfortunately ‑‑ and I sound like a broken record whenever I say it ‑‑ but they don't return phone calls, they don't return letters.  I feel jilted by Sirius Canada, even though I like their service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17461             And this is the danger of having these closed systems.  The traditional media, it's healthy but it's shrinking in terms of audience, slowly shrinking.  It's these other services that are growing rapidly, Internet‑based radio, satellite radio and so on.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17462             It's not a question of forcing them to turn over 30 per cent of their band width, it's really about opening up a chunk, 10 per cent or less of what they have to third party non‑profit organizations essentially as part of their public service.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17463             So, we have approached them and we continue to be open to them and we think it would enhance their services.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17464             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your remarks this morning you spoke about our public process and the inability to ‑‑ in your perception, for broader public involvement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17465             Do you have any specific suggestions on how we may consider improving the public process?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17466             MR. STEVENSON:  I think ‑‑ well, I mentioned that because I was involved with speaking with one of the organizations that sponsored the, I guess what was a form fax that was sent as part of this process and I know that the amount of time that people put in to filling out these online forms and pushing the button is not very much, it's only a few minutes, but for that person to do that as an individual, taking their own time and being concerned about the issue, it's important and their names at least should be listed on the website along with their submissions.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17467             And that's one way to indicate that that opinion is worth something within this process.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17468             I've learned over the years that you come to the Commission, you ask to speak, you present specific proposals, that's the only way that your issues are going to be discussed seriously.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17469             And I think we have to understand that there's an issue of scale here, that an individual who's concerned about media reform can't put together a brief with ratios and so on, it's just not possible, but the support that they have for the ideas or for the proposals of others are important.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17470             You know, I know that one organization ‑‑ I think there was over a thousand submissions that were sponsored by that organization and that makes it as important as some of the other stakeholders that appear here.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17471             It would be useful if the Commission held actually public town meetings across the country with people to talk about a range of issues.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17472             I think even polling, asking ‑‑ you know, commissioning polls about some of the issues  that you're discussing will give you a good idea.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17473             And, again, I'm very appreciative of the open process and having been invited many times to speak.  So, it's just that reaching out to the communities a bit more will have a great benefit for everyone I think.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17474             MR. LIGHT:  If I can add something too.  For me it's quite telling to be in the room with a media table with no media at it and there's been a pretty huge void of media coverage ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17475             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know, you are on live TV.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17476             MR. LIGHT:  I'm happy to be on live TV.

‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17477             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, so to say you're in a room without media is just technically not correct.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17478             MR. STEVENSON:  Actually, it is interesting because I follow ‑‑ I have a Google news aggregator that tells me every time the CRTC is mentioned in some site ‑‑ website.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17479             And it's interesting watching the coverage this week, start out with some reporting about how concentration equals diversity, which I saw as a headline which I thought was Orwellian and almost funny, and then a decline, only the Globe and Mail seemed to do regular reporting, and I'm pretty sure today they're won't be a story about what we said here from Grant Robinson, but usually the last few days there would be.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17480             And, you know, we are the media ourselves, but this is the kind of problem that ‑‑ I mean, that goes to the heart of what my concerns would be about what's happening in this country.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17481             I mean, CanWest Global, their website had the same story, all the websites for the newspapers,, it's all the same story and the headline is, you know, concentration is diversity.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17482             And, you know, it's a bit strange.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You won't get any argument from us, concentration is diversity is totally Orwellian, I agree with you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17484             MR. STEVENSON:  Oh, I made it sound Orwellian.  I'm sure that on Monday it sounded much more convincing, but...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17485             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17486             Michel, you had a question?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17487             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.  Mr. Stevenson, you referred to the U.K. community radio program and, as you know, Ofcom is managing some funds that goes to the community radio in the U.K., but that money doesn't come either from the broadcasters, neither from Ofcom per se, they receive the moneys from, I don't know which department, at least from the government.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17488             MR.STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17489             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Then they reallocate it for the community radio purpose.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17490             Obviously here you've been coming to see us, I'm sure that you've been speaking also to Heritage Canada, and are you making some headway with Heritage?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17491             MR. STEVENSON:  Heritage has commissioned what we feel is a very important report on the economic impact and state of community radio in Canada.  People are meeting with the consultants this week coming up who will be conducting the report.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17492             We're very happy because I work in a quasi‑governmental organization, I know how slowly the budget wheels can turn.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17493             I think ‑‑ so, I think we are making headway, I think we also see it as a long‑term project barring any kind of change that might take place.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17494             When we conceived of the Community Radio Fund, one of the ideas that we had about it was that it would be not simply a government program but more similar to the Australian Community Radio Fund where there would be private and public contributions to the fund.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17495             The model that I typically have seen internationally is, you know, strong government involvement and I think that's appropriate.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17496             We also in Canada have the benefits process and I think it's appropriate for us to be looking for support through that process as well.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17497             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Have you contemplated also contacting some foundations that may have some money for projects like yours?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17498             MR. STEVENSON:  We certainly have and it's really an issue of capacity.  Everybody ‑‑ Melissa is the only full‑time employee at the National Community Radio Association, the rest of us are volunteers and we get an awful lot done with our volunteer work but, at the same time, fund raising is very difficult, making the contacts, it's all about building relationships and that's difficult in a volunteer‑based organization.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17499             I think what I would like to see is a very minimal amount of support in the shorter term that would lead to a critical mass that would allow us to build the kind of relationships with government and industry and so on that would get us moving forward.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17500             We're just not in people's minds right now, at least ‑‑ I mean, we're now more than we were two years ago, so.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17501             And we're dealing ‑‑ you know, my station in Ottawa has a very small budget, it's $300,000 and we have hundreds of volunteers, hundreds of hours of programming.  We know that we can do a lot with a little bit, but we need that ‑‑ you know, we need that seed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17502             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously, you referred earlier in your oral presentation to the community media policy as you ‑‑ no, over the years has helped out the coming of a good number of radio stations, now we're starting to get some applications for community television.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17503             If the Commission has to prioritize for the future, what's your view; should they prioritize in favour of television rather than radio because there is already a lot of radio stations across the land?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17504             I understood from the earlier presentation that when you drove from Vancouver to ‑‑ from Victoria towards the east that there were some spots where there were no community radio stations, you mentioned Kelowna as a good case in point, but overall there is hundreds of community radio stations.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17505             MR. LIGHT:  I believe there are 146 or so licensed community broadcasters and roughly almost twice as many licensed community television or holders of community television licences, according to the CRTC website at least.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17506             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I'm talking over‑the‑air ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17507             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17508             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ community television.  I don't think there's even one licensed.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17509             MR. STEVENSON:  I know that I can't speak for the entire working group.  I know that we see a lot of requests from rural communities for radio of their own and urban areas are covered fairly well, some more than others.  So, the development is probably in tandem where there's an emphasis on rural development and improving urban stations, and certainly in terms of urban community TV stations, I don't think there's any conflict, I think that there's development that needs to happen on both sides.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17510             I hope that they don't ‑‑ they don't use the same frequencies; right?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17511             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No, no.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17512             MR. STEVENSON:  They're all UHF and...

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17513             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17514             MR. STEVENSON:  Yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17515             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They use different frequencies, yes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17516             MR. STEVENSON:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17517             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No impact on the FM spectrum.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17518             MR. STEVENSON:  No.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17519             MS KAESTNER:  And maybe too if it can be suggested, if there ‑‑ if it comes down to some point of making priorities, making choices and what kind of impact is going to happen that it's not like, you know, needing to decide this right now, that maybe there can be some consultative process that brings different aspects of community media together ‑‑

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17520             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mind you, they're doing their applications within the framework of the community media policy of 1990.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17521             MR. STEVENSON:  Mm‑hmm.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17522             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They only took 17 years before starting to get it ‑‑ to put together their plan.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17523             MS KAESTNER:  Yeah.  I don't think there's any doubt in people's minds, it certainly would take ‑‑ there's a lot ‑‑ there's many more aspects to developing a television ‑‑ over‑the‑air television station than a radio station.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17524             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Stevenson.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17525             MR. STEVENSON:  Thank you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17526             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Ms Kaestner.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17527             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Those are all the questions for you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17528             I appreciate your coming in and making this presentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17529             I think we will take a five‑minute break, Madam Boulet, before we move to the next panel.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17530             MS KAESTNER:  Oh, if I can just really quickly add, as part of our ‑‑ you might notice with our written presentation that there is an appendix dealing with a project called "Dig Your Roots", and it's just an example of a voluntary contributive relationship between the NCRA and Corus.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17531             So, during the break I'll probably be distributing those to you.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17532             Thanks.

‑‑‑ Recessed at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

‑‑‑ Resumed at 1135 / Reprise à 1135

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17533             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Boulet, do you want to introduce our guests?

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17534             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le Président.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17535             Nous procéderons maintenant aux interventions de l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada et de l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17536             Nous débuterons avec la présentation de l'Alliance des radios communautaires.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17537             J'invite M.Serge Paquin à nous présenter son collègue, et puis vous aurez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17538             Monsieur Paquin.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 17539             M. PAQUIN : Merci beaucoup.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17540             Monsieur le Président, mesdames, messieurs les commissaires, peut‑être avant de commencer mon allocution, j'aimerais clarifier le point que Commissaire Noël a soulevé, qu'il semble y avoir confusion ou manque de concertation par rapport aux trois organismes en ce qui a trait au Fonds canadien de la radio communautaire.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17541             Je pense que c'est faux.  Depuis le tout début, depuis au moins deux ans, on n'a jamais changé notre discours.  On parle qu'on a besoin de $18millions.  Ce $18 millions là, on a dit qu'on veut aller chercher $10 millions au gouvernement du Canada ‑‑ ça toujours été le même discours ‑‑ $5 millions de contributions des entreprises privées de radiodiffusion, et $3 millions d'autres sources.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17542             Les $5 millions, maintenant, on vous propose des avenues possibles. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17543             NCRA vous a proposé d'augmenter d'un pour cent les contributions aux avantages tangibles.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17544             L'ARC du Québec propose 0,5 pour cent des revenus ou des bénéfices des 10 plus grosses stations. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17545             Moi, je pourrais vous proposer, par exemple, il y a 60 pour cent qui va aller comme contributions à FACTOR.  Dans le 40 pour cent, il pourrait avoir un certain pourcentage qui va directement, obligatoirement, au fonds.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17546             Les avenues sont multiples, et c'est des avenues qu'on vous offre ici.  C'est à vous à voir le choix. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17547             On est tout à fait conscient qu'une nouvelle taxe pour le privé, ce n'est pas très populaire, mais il y a déjà des contributions.  Ils sont déjà obligés par la loi de contribuer un certain montant.  Pourquoi ne pas les obliger à contribuer chez nous, parce que, actuellement, la problématique, c'est des contributions volontaires, puis on ne cogne pas aux partes actuellement pour venir financer ce fonds‑là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17548             Donc, on est prêt, si vous voulez, de s'asseoir, puis vous dire: On privilégie tel mécanisme, mais le montant est le même, les besoins sont restés les mêmes.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17549             Donc, on travaille... on est des groupes bénévoles, on est des groupes communautaires, on travaille fort depuis deux ans pour mettre sur pied ce fonds‑là.  Je ne veux pas que vous pensez qu'on n'est pas concerté.  On a des réunions régulières depuis deux ans.  On travaille, on se rencontre avec les petits moyens qu'on a, mais le discours n'a pas changé. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17550             La méthodologie peut varier, c'est selon les besoins, selon ce qui va peut‑être être le plus, je dirais, le plus facile pour tout le monde, autant pour l'entreprise privée, que pour le CRTC, que pour nous.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17551             Donc, on est ouvert, puis des options, il y en a plusieurs.  Donc, c'est juste pour clarifier ce petit point.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17552             Rapidement, comme vous le savez, au début des années 90, j'étais déjà investi dans le milieu de la radio.  L'entreprise privée allait très mal, puis, je pense que les chiffres parlaient de soi‑même.  Puis il y avait une crise, puis il y avait une récession, on se souviendra, dans ce temps‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17553             Puis, je pense que tout le monde s'est mis d'accord à assouplir les lois.  On a facilité les transactions, on a enlevé des barrières au niveau des contenus de programmation qui étaient contraignantes ou quoi que ce soit. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17554             Donc, on est arrivé, aujourd'hui, avec une radio privée qui est très en santé, qui génère des profits records.  Donc, je pense que ça été un succès, puis, je pense que tout le monde en profite aujourd'hui.  Puis c'était nécessaire de prendre ces mesures‑là, à l'époque.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17555             Puis, je pense que, aujourd'hui, on se rend compte que, bon, on a déréglementé, on a facilité les fusions, et maintenant, on est devant vous pour vous dire, bien là, ça l'a sûrement une incidence sur la diversité des voix.  C'est sûr.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17556             On ne peut pas, à la fois, enlever tous les règlements, puis enlever les quotas, puis des minimums de contenu verbal ou des minimums de contenu de nouvelles locales, et caetera, puis se dire, après ça, bien.  Au bout de la ligne, on vit une situation où est‑ce qu'on craint pour la diversité des voix.  Oui, c'est un effet.  C'est un constat que vous avez fait, puis je pense que c'est tout à fait pertinent.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17557             Ce qu'il faut comprendre aussi, c'est que les gens, la majorité des Canadiens et Canadiennes aime la radio de divertissement, et c'est ce que les radios privées font, et elles le font bien.  Elles font de la radio qui amuse les gens, qui divertit les gens, et c'est un choix que le consommateur a.  Il peut écouter, aujourd'hui, de la radio de divertissement, et il y a du choix, et il y en a de la radio de divertissement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17558             Parallèlement à ça, il reste la radio publique et la radio communautaire, qui, soit par réglementation ou soit par choix, ont du contenu local, ont du contenu intéressant, des débats de fond sur différentes questions qui préoccupent les Canadiens et les Canadiennes, qui préoccupent les auditeurs, et c'est ça qu'on fait de mieux, nous, et c'est ça qu'on est ici pour vous dire, que c'est pour ça qu'on est là. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17559             C'est notre job.  On veut la faire comme il faut, et pour la faire comme il faut, ce n'est pas en faisant des bingos, pas en faisant des radiothons, puis en faisant des loteries que, pendant ce temps‑là, nos bénévoles s'épuisent, et au bout de la ligne, on n'est pas capable de livrer la marchandise.  C'est ça le problème qu'il y a.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17560             Si les gens veulent écouter, aujourd'hui, de la radio de contenu, ils ont le choix.  Ils peuvent aller à Radio‑Canada.  Ils peuvent aller... s'ils veulent écouter de la radio qui les préoccupe, ils peuvent aller, aujourd'hui, sur une radio communautaire.  On va parler de qu'est‑ce qui s'est passé à l'hôtel de ville dans leur village, et ça, c'est un choix qu'ils ont. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17561             Mais pour qu'on fasse cette job‑là, on a besoin de levier, on a besoin de ressources, et nos troupes sont épuisées, actuellement, et c'est ça un problème. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17562             Mais qu'on nous donne... parce que, on s'entend là, je ne pense pas que les radios privées vont vouloir que le CRTC leur impose des nouvelles mesures, puis augmenter leur contenu local, puis leur contenu verbal, puis augmenter ce qui est des questions de fonds, puis qu'on va commencer à faire de la radio de divertissement une radio de contenu.  Je ne pense pas qu'ils veulent ça, puis je ne pense pas qu'on veut aller en arrière.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17563             Mais aujourd'hui, si on veut aller en avant, il faut donner le moyen à des radiodiffuseurs qui font partie du système, que ça soit les radios communautaires, les radios de campus. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17564             Et je pense que Radio‑Canada a les moyens de faire cette job‑là, puis ils la font bien.  C'est une preuve que quand on a les moyens puis les ressources... Radio‑Canada fait de la très bonne radio, oui, mais ils ont les ressources pour le faire.  Ce n'est pas un problème de budget.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17565             Donc, à partir de ce moment‑là, le constat qu'on fait, c'est s'il existe un fonds qui va faciliter le travail des radios communautaires pour amener une diversité de voix, de contenu éditorial, et caetera, bien, que le CRTC, de concert avec les radios privées, puisse faciliter la mise sur pied de ce fonds‑là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17566             Donc, je n'ai pas lu tout le texte.  Simon peut peut‑être reprendre vers le milieu du texte.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17567             M. FORGUES : Bien, essentiellement, ce qu'on dit, c'est que... on parle de diversité des voix.  C'est que la principale motivation, selon nous, qui anime les grandes entreprises de radiodiffusion dans leur processus de fusion, comme ceux auxquels on a assisté au cours des dernières années, c'est, essentiellement, pour réaliser les économies d'échelle.  Il n'y a pas à se conter d'histoires là‑dedans.  Ce n'est certainement pas pour créer davantage de stations, puis offrir davantage.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17568             On craint, par conséquent, que ça se traduise, d'abord, par des réductions de personnel, et, éventuellement, par une baisse des services à la population.  D'ailleurs, les exemples d'acquisitions ou encore de fusions qui ont entraîné des fermetures de stations, des suppressions d'emplois, sont assez nombreux. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17569             Comme c'est écrit ici dans la présentation, on n'a qu'à penser, en '94, quand Radiomutuel et Télémédia ont fusionné et que c'est devenu Radiomédia, cela a provoqué, en outre, la fermeture de CJMS, qui était quand même l'une des plus importantes stations de radio montréalaises. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17570             Ce n'est quand même pas peu dire là quand on ferme une station de cette dimension‑là.  Et pas qu'elle, hein!  Cela a entraîné aussi la fermeture de plusieurs autres stations de radio régionales à travers le Québec: CJRP, entre autres, dans la région de Québec, et d'autres.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17571             Presque chaque acquisition ou fusion de stations se traduit par la centralisation des opérations, particulièrement au chapitre décisionnel, contenu en ondes, ce qui a rapport aux émissions, musique, ou encore les nouvelles. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17572             Je parle en connaissance de cause parce que, à une certaine époque, j'ai travaillé dans un réseau majeur, dont je tairai le nom.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17573             Mais quand même, il ne faut pas s'étonner, aujourd'hui, que, par exemple, un auditeur d'un réseau qui écoute la station de Rouyn‑Noranda, entend sensiblement, au même moment, sur les ondes de sa station la même chanson, à quelques secondes ou à quelques minutes de différence, que celui de Rimouski dans le Bas‑Saint‑Laurent.  Ce n'est pas de la diversité des voix, ça, en notre sens. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17574             Ça n'existe pas encore là, mais s'il y avait une avion qui nous permettait de faire le Québec de bout en bout en quelque chose comme trois minutes et demie, le temps de la durée d'une chanson, il y a des grosses chances qu'en embarquant dans l'avion à Rouyn‑Noranda, vous entendriez la chanson qui commence, puis vous l'entendriez finir, la même, en changeant de station d'un bout à l'autre de la province.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17575             Outre ça, on reconnaît l'importance des initiatives de support à la relève.  On les salue.  Évidemment, on n'a pas besoin de les nommer, on les connaît.  On estime, quand même, que c'est assez insuffisant en matière d'aide et de visibilité que l'on consacre au nouveau talent. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17576             D'ailleurs, ce qu'on pense, c'est que si elles n'étaient pas contraintes de le faire, il y a des fortes chances ou il y a tout lieu de croire qu'elles n'investiraient pas beaucoup, sinon pas du tout, dans ces plans d'aide à la relève musicale.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17577             Nos stations de radios communautaires francophones offrent davantage de place sur leurs ondes aux artistes de la relève que tout autre radiodiffuseur privé.  D'ailleurs, nos palmarès sont là pour le prouver.  Il ne faut pas s'étonner qu'aujourd'hui des stations de formats musicaux réputés être différents diffusent les mêmes artistes plusieurs fois par semaine, voire même plusieurs fois par jour.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17578             Et avec les fusions, on va encore assister davantage à une centralisation.  C'est‑à‑dire que, jadis, l'artiste prenait son petit bagage, s'en allait faire le tour de 15‑20 stations de radio.  S'il se faisait dire non à Québec, bien, il avait une chance de peut‑être aller convaincre celui de Trois‑Rivières. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17579             Maintenant, l'artiste s'en va à Montréal, il rencontre un directeur musical qui décide pour 10‑12 stations.  S'il se fait dire non à un endroit, vas pas à Trois‑Rivières, puis à Québec pour essayer de vendre ta musique, ils n'accepteront pas, ils sont tenus de jouer ce qu'ils jouent à Montréal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17580             Alors, voilà, c'est essentiellement ce que moi, j'avais à dire à propos de ça.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17581             M. PAQUIN:  Merci.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17582             Peut‑être juste en conclusion, rapidement.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17583             Dans mon dernier paragraphe, ce que je dis, c'est que les radios communautaires sont pour bien des citoyens le dernier rempart contre cette concentration de la presse et des médias.  Les Canadiens et les Canadiennes ont le droit d'être informés de ce qui se passe chez eux, et non pas de se contenter d'une uniformisation de l'information ou de la programmation. 

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17584             C'est ce qui est le cas là de... on s'entend, les cotes d'écoute des radios privées, on ne se cachera pas là, ce n'est pas loin de 90 pour cent.  Donc, c'est énorme le pouvoir qu'ils ont sur les auditeurs.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17585             Mais il reste, quand même, 10 pour cent de gens, et peut‑être plus.  Plus qu'on aura de la bonne radio alternative et plus qu'on aura les moyens de faire cette bonne radio là, et plus on ira chercher un certain nombre d'auditeurs qui seront intéressés à nous écouter.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17586             Donc, je pense qu'on reste un...  On fait partie du système canadien de la radiodiffusion, puis je pense que, aujourd'hui, on est devant vous pour vous dire qu'on a besoin d'un coup de main.  On a besoin d'un levier pour que nos communautés soient mieux informées, pour que nos communautés puissent contribuer encore plus, justement, à cette diversité des voix là.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17587             Je vous remercie.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17588             LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame Boulet.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17589             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr.Chairman.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17590             Nous procéderons maintenant avec la présentation de l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17591             Madame Julie Forest nous présentera son collègue, et vous aurez 10 minutes pour votre présentation.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17592             Merci.


listnum "WP List 3" \l 17593             MME FOREST : Monsieur le Président, Monsieur le Vice‑Président, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, l'Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec est très heureuse de profiter de ces quelques minutes pour tenter d'enrichir le mémoire qu'elle a déposé dans le cadre de la présente audience.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17594             Je suis Julie Forest, directrice générale de l'ARCQ, et je suis accompagnée, à ma gauche, par monsieur Éric Lefebvre, vice‑président du conseil d'administration de l'ARCQ et directeur général de la station CIBL à Montréal.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17595             Aujourd'hui, nous souhaitons faire part à la Commission de certaines menaces qui risquent de mettre en péril la contribution des radios communautaires à la diversité des voix au Canada.

listnum "WP List 3" \l 17596