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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

March 27, 2007                        Le 27 mars 2007

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

Richard French                    Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Valérie Dionne                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

February 12, 2007                 Le 12 février 2007

 


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Kenneth R. Schaffer                                 9 /   51

 

Diversity Television Inc.                          62 /  433

 

National Broadcast Reading Service (OBCI)         171 / 1246

 

Avis de recherche inc. and All Points             276 / 1990

  Bulletin Incorporated

 

Faith and Spirit Media Inc.                       285 / 2032

 

Pelmorex Communications Inc.                      293 / 2070

 

CANAL Corporation pour l'avancement de            299 / 2098

  nouvelles applications des langages ltée

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Debwe Communications                              308 / 2137

RJ Deverell Productions                           315 / 2161

Young Diplomats                                   320 / 2182

Gord Hope                                         344 / 2284

Geoff Eden                                        355 / 2331

Charlie Macdonald                                 363 / 2370

Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians          377 / 2444

Penny Leclair                                     386 / 2501

Rogers Communications Inc.                        393 / 2534

Shaw Communications                               411 / 2639

Canadian Cable Systems Alliance                   429 / 2742

Bell Video Group                                  444 / 2820

 

 

 


                  Gatineau Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 27, 2007

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le mardi 27 mars 2007

    à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Ladies and gentlemen, order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs, et bienvenue à cette audience publique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                My name is Rita Cugini.  I am the CRTC Regional Commissioner for Ontario, and I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues Michel Arpin, Vice‑Chair of Broadcasting; Richard French, Vice‑Chair of Telecommunications; Barbara Cram, Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; and Helen del Val, Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon.


LISTNUM 1 \l 16                L'équipe du Conseil qui nous assiste se compose, notamment, de Joe Aguiar, gérant de l'audience et gestionnaire de l'Analyse de la radio de langue anglaise; Valérie Dionne, conseillère juridique; et Jade Roy, secrétaire d'audience, auprès de qui vous pouvez vous renseigner sur toute question qui concerne le déroulement de l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                At this hearing we will examine applications for new licences to operate specialty programming services with digital basic status, as well as the applications of existing Licensees for digital basic status.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                This will be followed by applications to provide a new radio service to the Sudbury market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                We will then assess an application relating to a transaction that would bring about a change to the effective control of the Canadian Documentary Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               Finally, we will look at an application to renew the licence of Radio Station CKEY‑FM, Fort Erie and St. Catharines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               The panel will begin by studying the applications presented by Kenneth R. Schaffer, Diversity Television Inc., and the National Broadcast Reading Service Inc., for licences to operate a new national specialty programming undertaking with mandatory digital basic carriage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               We will then hear a presentation by Avis de Recherche and All Points Bulletin Incorporated, requesting mandatory digital basic carriage for their Category 2 specialty services.


LISTNUM 1 \l 113               This will be followed by presentations by Faith and Spirit Media Inc. and Pelmorex Communications Inc.  These Licensees are applying for mandatory distribution on digital basic for their dual status analog specialty services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               Enfin, nous entendrons la présentation de la Corporation pour l'avancement des nouvelles applications des langages limités, ou CANAL, qui demande la distribution obligatoire du Canal Savoir au Québec et sa distribution en mode numérique à l'extérieur du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               The panel will assess applications for mandatory digital basic carriage in light of the criteria set out in the Digital Migration Framework, Broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2006‑23, which was issued in February 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               These criteria state, among other things, that Applicants must provide evidence demonstrating the exceptional importance of the service to the achievement of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.


LISTNUM 1 \l 117               The Applicant must also demonstrate that its business plan and the implementation of its specific commitments are dependent on the receipt of broad national distribution on the digital basic service, and that the wholesale rate it is proposing would not make its service unaffordable to consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               Regarding the three applications for new services, the Exceptional Importance Criterion will be evaluated based on their proposed programming plans and commitments, as well as the unique contribution that would be realized by licensing these services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               The Commission invited comments on these applications and on the extent to which they have demonstrated that they meet the criteria set out in the Digital Migration Framework.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               Information extraneous to the scope of this proceeding will not be considered by the Commission and it will not revisit the Digital Migration Framework as part of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               The Commission will only consider information that is relevant to the merits of the applications before it, using the criteria listed in the Notice of Public Hearing in reference to the Digital Migration Framework.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               Next we will consider six proposals to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Sudbury.  We will examine the applications in the order of Items 1 to 6, presented in the Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2007‑1.


LISTNUM 1 \l 123               Some applications are competing technically for the use of the same frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               Nous évaluerons les propositions à la lumière des objectifs culturels, économiques et sociaux énoncés dans la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et les règlements qui en découlent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               The panel will base its decision on several criteria, including the state of competition and the diversity of editorial voices in the market, as well as the quality of the applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               It will also look at the ability of the market to support new radio stations, the financial resources of each Applicant, and proposed initiatives for Canadian content development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               We will then assess an application by the Canadian Documentary Channel Limited Partnership for authority to effect a change to the effective control of the Canadian Documentary Channel, and for a new licence to continue its operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               The proposed transaction would see the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation increase its partnership interest from 29 to 82 percent, and the effective control change from Corus to the CBC.


LISTNUM 1 \l 129               Finally, we will examine an application to renew the licence of Radio Station CKEY‑FM, Fort Erie, and its transmitter, CKEY‑FM‑1 St. Catharines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               In January 2005, the Commission decided to renew CKEY‑FM's licence for a period of a year and a half.  This decision was based on the station's non‑compliance with the Radio Regulations, 1986, and with certain conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               The Commission was particularly concerned by the insufficient amount of local programming that had been broadcast on CKEY‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               After renewing the licence, the Commission monitored the programming broadcast by the station on two separate occasions, which raised serious preoccupations with respect to the amount of local programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               The Commission is concerned that the Licensee may be operating in a continued breach of its condition of licence.  Therefore, as stated in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2007‑1, the Licensee is expected to show cause as to why a mandatory order should not be issued requiring it to provide a sufficient level of local programming to be deemed operating in compliance with its condition of licence.


LISTNUM 1 \l 134               I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Jade Roy, to explain the procedures we will be following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               Miss Roy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               Nous aimerions souligner quelques points d'ordre pratique qui contribueront au bon déroulement de cette audience publique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               Firstly, the simultaneous interpretation service is available during the hearing. Receivers are available from the Commissionaire outside the Hearing Room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               The English interpretation is on Channel 7, and French is on Channel 8.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               When you are in the Hearing Room, we would ask you to please turn off your cellphones, beepers and Blackberrys, as they are an unwelcome distraction and they cause interference on the internal communications system used by our translators.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               We expect the hearing to take approximately one week.  We will begin each morning at 8:30 a.m., starting tomorrow, and we will finish each day at approximately 7:00 p.m. or 7:30 p.m.


LISTNUM 1 \l 142               We will take one hour for lunch, and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               Pendant toute la durée de l'audience, vous pourrez consulter les documents qui font partie du dossier public pour cette audience dans la salle d'examen qui se trouve dans la salle Papineau, située à l'extérieur de la salle d'audience, à votre droite.  Tel qu'indiqué dans l'ordre du jour, le numéro de téléphone de la salle d'examen est le 819‑953‑3168.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               Une transcription des comparutions quotidiennes sera affichée sur le site internet du Conseil peu après la fin de l'audience.  Les personnes qui désirent acheter des transcriptions peuvent s'adresser aux sténographes qui se trouvent à la table à ma droite durant la pause ou directement auprès de la compagnie Mediacopy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               We will now proceed with the presentations in the order of appearance set out in the agenda.  Each party will be granted a given time to make its presentation.  Questions from the Commission may follow each presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 147               Now, Madam Chair, we will proceed with Item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by Kenneth Schaffer, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a national digital English‑language specialty programming undertaking to be known as Métis Michif Television Network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               The proposed service will be devoted to programming exploring the concerns of preserving the culture, language and heritage of the Métis people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Kenneth Schaffer, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               Mr. Schaffer, you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

*PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               MR. SCHAFFER:  Hello, bonjour, tanjay.  My name is Ken Schaffer.  Thank you to Madam Chairperson and to the Commission for allowing us to appear today.  It is our pleasure to appear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               My name is Ken Schaffer, and I am the founder of the Métis Television Network across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               With me are Deb Schaffer and Richard Gustin from SCN, on our panel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 154               I would first state that I would like to apologize to the Commission in advance for any types of deficiencies that we may have run into in our presentation to you, with the exception that I have never been to a hearing, so I wasn't really sure of how this would all valuate and make its way out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               The fundamental reasons for us applying are:

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               To establish a Métis Television Network across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               The Métis are in the Constitution, and we have fallen short, for some reason, of the complete Broadcasting Act, and I believe that the Broadcasting Act is a Canadian‑‑ it's a gem.  It's a worldwide gem, not just a Canadian gem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               The application provides the opportunity for the Métis to showcase our proud history, as well as our culture and heritage.  It provides the opportunity for all Canadians to learn about and understand the contributions, connections and diversity of the Métis and the Aboriginal people that it represents, that is forever part of history in the development of Canada as a nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               The application will ensure the participation of Métis youth, elders, and a chance for the Métis to learn their native tongue, and basically bring back to life the original language of the Métis, which is the Michif language.


LISTNUM 1 \l 160               Within a decade, it is entirely possible that the Métis will be the largest population component within Canada's Aboriginal population.  The reason I say that is because we have to take into account the non‑status representation.  A lot of Métis people are considered to be non‑status Aboriginal or Indian people or Métis people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               So there are a lot of people who are not being represented within all of the broadcasting channels that currently exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               MMTN, the Métis Michif Television Network, is an exceptional case.  The Métis of Canada encompass many nations from North America, as well as abroad.  The Métis history here in Canada is documented to have started in the early 1500s.  There is nowhere else in the world that you will find the Métis Michif people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               We started our creation here, and only here; not like the First Nations, with their roots that can be traced back to migration from Asian, as well as other European countries, migrating to the North American continent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 164               MMTN can understand that the plan for the network is entrepreneurial, as this is and has been the prominence of the Métis people since their inception as a group of people here in Canada‑‑ since the integral voyage, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               With that said, MMTN has signed a memorandum of understanding with the Saskatchewan Communications Network, in which the Saskatchewan Communications Network will play a key role in our launching and our success, to ensure that the mechanisms are in place, especially the technology, and the advice, of course, for us to handle and maintain the traffic reports and other considerations that are necessary to the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               We must point out that when immigrants come into Canada, there are a number of questions that are asked of them before they get their citizenship.  Some of the interventions spoken against the Métis Television Network make reference to this.  What happens is, they don't make the reference to it in a positive way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               We are part of section 35 of the Constitution, and there are three peoples listed within the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada.  They are:  the Métis, the Inuit and the First Nations People.


LISTNUM 1 \l 168               What that comprises is a number of countries.  Just like Europe has a number of countries, and there are a number of countries within Asia, Canada has a number of countries within it, which were here before the establishment of Upper and Lower Canada, and, of course, Canada as it is today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               The Métis are definitely listed within the Constitution, under section 35(2).  That means that, basically, we are distinctive.  We are not the same as every other group.  We are not White enough, we are not Indian enough to have certain status as quoted by the Canadian government.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               With all due respect, MMTN needs to have the assurance and safeguards of 9(1)(h), which is the "must carry" designation, in order to successfully launch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 171               I think you are aware that we have already had one decision, which was 2002‑345.  With that decision, we tried ardently, within a number of years, to gain access‑‑ and I must say that I am here, respectfully, to address you, the Commission, about this issue.


LISTNUM 1 \l 172               We have tried ardently to get that carriage, as designated in the original decision, 2002‑345.  What we found was that we were unable to do that because of the gatekeeper‑type mentality of the broadcast distribution undertakings.  This has left us in a situation where we have had no choice but to come to you, respectfully, and ask for the "must carry" designation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               I must point out, also, that I have an application in front of me for a Category 1 licence, which I obtained a number of years ago.  I have never actually presented it to the Commission, but it is here, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               I believe that the framework of our operational plan will answer all of the questions in regard to the Category 1 licence, as well as our Category 2 licence for this undertaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               As I said, MMTN has attempted for many years to gain commitments for carriage in order to be able to launch.  Numerous BDUs in their interventions have suggested that the services can become Category 2's if they desire to access the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               Historically, the unattainable gatekeeper actions of the BDUs, including Rogers and Shaw, have, in many ways, become an architect to our realization that "must carry" is a necessary approach in order to adequately service Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               Ironically, prior to our application, they told MMTN that they would adhere, or at least honour the recommendations of the CRTC.


LISTNUM 1 \l 178               In other words, they will give us carriage only upon you making it so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 179               The CRTC made a historic decision with 2002‑345.  I don't think you could have come closer to really filling our Broadcasting Act to completion, when it comes down to allowing that decision to go forward.  That alone made Canada, in my opinion, a whole country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               Even though we have never launched the network, and there were unforeseeable problems to actually getting that launch, it must be pointed out that that was, I think, further proof of Canadian sovereignty and the will of the Commission to do the right thing in terms of licensing MMTN and having it launch as a network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               The Métis is the only group mentioned in the Canadian Constitution that does not have its own broadcasting and communications vehicles for preserving and protecting the culture and language of the Métis and non‑status people, unlike the French, Inuit and First Nations in the very same Constitution.


LISTNUM 1 \l 182               APTN has stated that they feel there will be a bit of competition, and I really do not believe that to be the case.  I don't think our panel does.  There is a lack of Métis representation on the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.  I don't know for what reason.  That would have to be answered by APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               What we are saying is that the Métis Television Network will not be duplicating any services that the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network would be entertaining.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               APTN and other broadcasters include Métis programming sometimes, but it is not really Métis programming.  What they do is, they will allow anybody to produce on behalf of something they would call Métis‑specific.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               I am the founder of the first ever Métis‑specific television series in Canadian history, and I started that 10 years ago.  My first licence was given to me through SCN.  So we were basically up and running before APTN was ever involved with us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 186               One thing that we have found for sure is this:  When we have approached any other broadcasters or broadcast distribution undertakings about carriage, they have used APTN as a sword against the Métis people and the non‑status people here in Canada.  Even if you go to another broadcaster with a Métis‑specific television series and say that you want to air it on their network, they use APTN as a scapegoat, as a weapon against the Métis people, by saying:  You have to go to the Indian channel in order to get that program to run.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               I really don't see the need for that when we have hundreds of broadcast undertakings, and each one of them, according to the Broadcasting Act and its wording‑‑ and we have to point out that the wording is there, and it states that these broadcasters should be taking the time and merit to produce and allow Métis producers access to their networks, but they are not doing it.  It is just not being done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               This is, again, further reason why the Métis are searching for their own network.  The thing is, it is for the benefit of everybody, especially the youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               Again, the biggest obstacles for the Métis people seem to be that they are using other networks to stop the actual promotion of Métis‑specific programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 190               I must point out that we have never done a programming call.  We have never really actually put an ad out, or anything of that nature, asking all Métis and non‑status producers to apply to us for licensing, because we were not going to set it up to fail.  We were not going to set up any of those producers to fail.  We knew that we needed to have the "must carry" designation, or there was no way that we were going to license anybody under the current system.  It would be derogatory, and it certainly wouldn't help anybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               MMTN also would like to point out that, yes, we are in the situation of asking for the "must carry" because we do need those funds from the "must carry" designation to help and license other producers who would like to come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 192               Also, I would like to point out that a lot of people of the not‑so‑White‑‑ not‑White‑enough category of the Métis people are out there, and they really don't know how to fit into the current framework in Canada because the door has been shut on them.  They don't even know how to present a proper production to the Canadian framework of production, because they feel that they don't fit within the system, and we would like to make that stop.  We would like it to be a more positive thing, where everybody fits in, and everybody has the chance to speak their mind.


LISTNUM 1 \l 193               What I am talking about is that the Métis people are not just Indian people.  Sure, we are part First Nations, but we are also part French, we are also part English, we are also part Irish, and we are also part Scottish.  A lot of those types of programming do not hit our Canadian airwaves for some reason, yet everybody is supposed to be there to actually identify with that and make that happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               It is a big difference from six years ago, when the Net licence was okayed by the CRTC.  The mainstream media didn't believe that we would last that long and actually make it to the point where we would be standing here before you in a hearing, asking for "must carry".  I don't think they thought this was going to happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               We are trying to do our best, and we will try to make our best efforts to maintain all of the programming we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               I have to apologize, again, to you for my lack of continuance in this‑‑ continuity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               I think what I would like to do is just say that we have come all this way, and we submit that our application could not be more applicable to the parameters of the "must carry" designation and what you would call‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               How is it worded?  To entertain on an exceptional basis?


LISTNUM 1 \l 199               I believe that MMTN has met all of that criteria.  As Métis people in Canada, we meet it probably more than anybody else in that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              I really don't want to ramble on.  If I could, I would ask Richard to speak on a few things, because I have gone on and on, and I can't state my case any more than what I have, I don't think, right at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              MR. GUSTIN:  Good morning.  I represent SCN, the Saskatchewan Communications Network, Saskatchewan's educational broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              I am not here to speak to MMTN's business plan or their content.  That is for Ken to answer.  However, I am here to speak to the value of the co‑location agreement that we are discussing with MMTN and what this would do to facilitate their ability to get this service up and running.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              As many of you know, SCN has just built a new physical plant.  We have one of the most advanced digital broadcast centres in the country.  It would be very easy for us to add other services to that.  So we would be very pleased to welcome MMTN to SCN.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              As well, we have accumulated a great deal of expertise in traffic matters, in working with the CRTC, so I think we have a very robust traffic management system that would certainly bring value to this service, as well as our familiarity with the broadcasting environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              The other thing, though, that I want to speak to is the issue of diversity.  As many of the Commissioners know, SCN has been a strong proponent of regional voices and diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system, and I would note that, currently, the multiple channels owned by a small number of corporate broadcast groups do not guarantee the diversity of voices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              A quick analogy that I noted in this morning's paper is that there seems to be a great scandal developing in the dog food industry, where we have one company making hundreds of brands of dog food, and all of them have become tainted.  Dog owners are suddenly in a panic, because, although there are all of these brands in the supermarket, they are all from the same people and they are all corrupted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              We have a similar situation in the broadcasting world, where we have dozens and dozens of channels, all of which seem to be focusing on showing "CSI Miami" and "The Simpsons".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              SCN is a strong believer that there need to be more voices in the system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              Really, those are the issues that I wanted to bring to the table.  We think that diversity in the system is important, and that there need to be opportunities for voices like what Ken is trying to do for the Métis people and the Michif language, and we strongly support this.  We have worked with a number of Aboriginal and Métis producers over the years, and I must point out that, in SCN's experience, it was very, very difficult to get any kind of Aboriginal programming made prior to APTN coming on the scene, because SCN, as a small broadcaster, could not carry the weight of that responsibility alone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              So getting more participants into the system enables more diverse voices to appear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              We have about two minutes left, Ken.  Do you have anything else to say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, I do, if I could, please.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              I would like to point out that we didn't have a lot of positive interventions presented to the Commission on this hearing, and that is basically because we didn't go to get any, because when the original application was sent in, it had, virtually, a number of different positive letters from all over Canada.  There are about 70 different positive interventions directly in the actual application and the business plan, and we would like you to take note of them, because we included them in the actual application, rather than trying to get other interventions at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              As I pointed out, we already have received a Category 2 licence, under Decision 2002‑345, so we are trying to further this and make it more positive, where we can actually launch and dedicate the service to the Métis people and people of Canada.  We really want to do this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              That is really all I have to say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              Vice‑Chairman French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Welcome, Mr. and Ms Schaffer, and Mr. Gustin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              Mr. Schaffer, in order to do full justice to your application, I would like to ask you some fairly specific questions, the object being to elicit from you some hard information that the Commission requires in order to be able to properly evaluate your proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  We will take as read your cultural case.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              MR. SCHAFFER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Let's talk specifically about what you are planning to do on your proposed channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              How much programming in a week will be, in your mind, in English, French and Michif?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              MR. SCHAFFER:  I believe that what we had done there was, we had thought that about 75 to 80 percent of the content would be in the English category, as, really, that is one of the first languages of the Métis.  I guess that French would be one of the other languages, and then, finally, the Aboriginal component, which would be a smaller percentage at this point, and then we would make our best efforts to try to increase that as the years go by.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              I must point out that the Michif language is the most tricky out of all of the components to put together, as far as national languages are concerned.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              I make reference, for instance, to the State of Hawaii, in which the people of Hawaii will drive around their cities and look at a number of different street signs, like King Kameamea Avenue, Makapuu Bay, and all of these different areas, but they don't talk their own language.  That is really kind of sad.  It is not even taught in their own schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              In this case, the Michif language is one of those languages that has nearly fallen right off the map.  So we want to dedicate a certain amount of time to try to bring back some of that, as well, and we hope to have as much programming in that area of the French‑English end of it, with subtitling where it is available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              I hope that answers that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Well, you have said that 75 to 80 percent of the programming would be in English, so let's talk about the other 20 percent, just to be clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              French would be 15 percent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              MR. SCHAFFER:  About that, yes.  Ten to 15 percent, I guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              I forget what was in the actual application, but‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It is not a test relative to what is in the application.  You are here to describe what you are trying to do.  So, please, tell us what you are trying to do as of now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              If there is some flagrant contradiction with what you said before, please explain it, but you are free to tell us what you plan to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              At the moment, you plan to have 75 to 80 percent English, 10 to 15 percent French, and the balance, say, 5 percent to 10 percent, Michif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              Is that fair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              MR. SCHAFFER:  That's fair, with, of course, our best efforts to increase that to up to about 25 percent Michif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              Eventually, we will probably get into more of a relationship with the French language end of it, as we want to license a lot of French programming on the Métis Television Network, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Let's talk first about the Michif component, because you want to increase it, and it is part of your cultural mandate, I think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What percentage of people who self‑identify as Métis speak Michif?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              MR. SCHAFFER:  I would have to say, from my previous experience in this, not a lot.  Probably less than 2 percent of the overall population even speaks Michif.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              And that is the elder population.  As they are gaining in age, this is slowly falling off the face of the earth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Would I be right that we are talking about 30,000 people who self‑identified as Métis, or is that too low?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              MR. SCHAFFER:  That is way too low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              MR. SCHAFFER:  About 800,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Eight‑hundred thousand?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Self‑identified.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, according to the Canadian census.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  And about 2 percent of them speak Michif, as an estimate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              MR. SCHAFFER:  Two to 10 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              It just depends on what regional area you are in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  When you are broadcasting in English and French, you will be treating themes or content that will be directed specifically at Métis, or, more generally, at urban people of Aboriginal origin?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              What would the target audience be for your programming in English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              MR. SCHAFFER:  I believe that the target audience would be all Canadians in English.  Overall, I think, we would be‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              I am trying to remember your question, I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  For your 75 to 80 percent of English programming, what would your target audience be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              MR. SCHAFFER:  I would say that the target audience would be the White‑‑ not the White, but the English‑language component, and youth, and then, of course, getting into that marginalization of the Michif language and trying to pull that more into the forefront, to re‑establish it eventually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              But, yes, the majority would be English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              My first language was English.  My second language was Cantonese, and that was because I was five years old and we had an Asian family living next door, so I learned the language very quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              And then, later on, my third language was French.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              And I never did learn my own language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, when you program in English, you are targeting English‑speaking people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But that's a very big category.  Help me a bit more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              What kind of programming will this be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              This won't be original programming.  What kind of programming will it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. SCHAFFER:  No, we plan to do 75 percent or 80 percent original programming, with all of this, if not more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              The point being that we are trying to grab into that area of Canadian broadcasting that is not being serviced right now, and that is a large area, especially within the Métis area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              That's what we want to do.  We want to bring that back to life.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              Like I say, the Métis people, a lot of them‑‑ and it depends on what region you are from.  Some may be first‑language French‑speaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              So that is another situation where‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              I know this is frustrating, and I am sorry if I am not answering the question the way you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It's not a matter of what I want, I am trying to help you, Mr. Schaffer, to explain it to us with some degree of precision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              And, to be honest with you, I am not succeeding at the moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. SCHAFFER:  Okay.  The Métis Michif Television Network intends to devote 35 hours of each broadcast week to Métis and other Aboriginal programming.  That is really what we intend to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But 35 hours can't be 75 to 80 percent of original programming, then, can it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              MR. SCHAFFER:  That's English.  We are going to try to do as much‑‑ best efforts to doing that as we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              Again, it has been a real struggle to even get to this point, so...

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Yes, I am struggling, too, Mr. Schaffer.  I know the feeling.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              You plan to do 35 hours of original programming a week in English.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              MR. SCHAFFER:  We plan to launch a television network and do as much programming as we can that is Canadian content on a weekly basis‑‑ as much as we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              We wanted to do a 100 percent Canadian content television network, but, in the eyes of other experts we have talked to, this is very hard to do.  It is hard to sustain 100 percent Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              That is my answer, I guess.  We are trying to do that.  We have stated within our application process that we want to maintain a minimum of 80 percent Canadian content, and that would include all groups‑‑ the French, the Michif and the English‑speaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  All right.  Of that 80 percent, what kind of programming would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              Where would you source it from?  What production houses would you work with?  What kinds of themes would you deal with?  What kinds of audiences would you be targeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              MR. SCHAFFER:  We are going to try to target the average Canadian audience.  We want to be a part‑‑ we want to participate in the broadcasting of Canada, and we want to contribute that by‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              Richard, maybe you could help me with some of this.  You know more about the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              If I could let Richard answer some of these questions...

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              MR. GUSTIN:  This puts me in a difficult position.  I am not really here to speak to the content of the Métis channel.  However, I think what Ken is trying to say is, he is interested in trying to do programming that is targeted to the concerns of the Métis community, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              Are you trying to do youth‑oriented programming in this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              Will there be a youth component, Ken?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              MR. GUSTIN:  Is there going to be public information programming that speaks to the concerns of the Métis community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              MR. GUSTIN:  Are you intending to do a news service‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              MR. GUSTIN:  ‑‑ or an information component?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.  We believe that is truly missing from the Canadian broadcasting environment.  News is definitely a priority, and youth is a priority, in terms of the people that we want to reach out to, as far as producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              And we want to reach the youth population within Canada to explain who the Métis people are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Let's talk about youth, then, Mr. Schaffer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              MR. SCHAFFER:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  How many production houses have you been in touch with or do you know about who would be liable to produce the kind of programming that would address, I guess, Métis youth, if I am understanding this correctly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              Is there a backlog?  Is there an inventory of that kind of programming, or would it all have to be produced originally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              MR. SCHAFFER:  There are a couple of dozen programs that we could probably pull that have been produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and other broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              The majority of it will be new broadcasting and new initiatives, I would suggest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              That is the whole purpose, the whole idea.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              Because it isn't being properly serviced at this point, it just isn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You are the leading Métis production house in the country.  Am I right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              MR. SCHAFFER:  I would think so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  How many hours of Métis‑relevant production would you do in a year in your production operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              MR. SCHAFFER:  Based on the limiting of licensing and the limiting of dollars that are available, we only produce, really, two or three different types of programs per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              One is a full‑time series, which is the Métis Television series "Metcom", which stands for "The Métis Communications Program", and we have about 70 programs underneath our belt at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              We are also reaching out and doing other programs, which are one‑hour documentaries and one‑offs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              Other than that, to say the least‑‑

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              MR. SCHAFFER:  Basically, we are evolving Aboriginal production.  That is what we are doing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              There is a lack of responsibility by the broadcasters to even look at Métis‑specific programming, even though it is in our Broadcasting Act that it should be there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              When we approach the other broadcasters, they are not opening the door.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              SCN is one of the rare broadcasters out there that has actually looked at the Broadcasting Act and talks about it when we have discussions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              MR. GUSTIN:  If I could jump in on this for a second; one of the things that has been interesting to SCN over the past several years is the evolution of the Aboriginal and Métis production community that we are seeing, particularly on the Prairies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              We are finding a number of new entrants into the community.  The Aboriginal community has a strong oral tradition, so that young people embrace the nature of television production fitting into the strong oral tradition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              So we see a number of new entrants coming into the field in this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              Unfortunately, with our limited resources, it is very difficult to support them to the same level as the aspirations of this community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              MR. SCHAFFER:  There is such a limited amount of dollars out there that it is hard to really say how many people are out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              There are the odd Métis programs, like, "La voix du Michif".  Andrea Menard is doing some of this work in order to, of course, enhance Métis‑specific programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              Again, the bottom line is, there is a lack of money.  There is a lack of money even in the Canadian Television Fund for us to reach out to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              A good example is, we have not been able to produce the Métis television series for a number of years, and we would like to do it every year, and have 13 to 26 episodes per year done, just on that one episode‑‑ or one show, "Metcom".  But, unfortunately, that doesn't happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              What happens is, we are forced to apply for a minimal amount of funding for the Aboriginal component.  Then, of course, there is the evaluation process, which evaluates you out of the system, because of the limited amount of dollars.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              At that point‑‑ again, I come back to this‑‑ whereas we did start to do a production call and actually ask Métis producers to come forward, we got a number of different applications in for production‑worthy programs that we would be able to air.  The problem is that, again, we were not a "must carry" and we didn't have the budget; therefore, we couldn't commit to any of those funds, and, at the same time, none of those producers could get hold of any of that First Nations money from Canadian Heritage through the Canadian Television Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              It has been‑‑ I would tell you that, out of all the things I have ever done in my whole life, Métis television is probably one of the hardest things that I have ever done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              And I am not here to make myself rich.  What it really comes down to is, when I started the Métis television series "Metcom", that was the first ever Métis television series in the world, and when I did it, I was asked specifically by licensors and programmers, like SCN:  What am I doing?  Because nobody else has done this before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              You are not going to have enough money to produce this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              These are questions that are real coming out of licensors, and I had to agree with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              But I wasn't doing this to get rich, it was because I am an artist.  This is the culture, the history.  This is our people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              One of the basic fundamentals that I ran into is‑‑ I have to tell you that I am the founder, also, of the job shops in this world, and what I have done is, I have found thousands of people who work in this country, and one of the major areas that is missing is Métis‑specific hiring practices in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              One of the big holes that I saw was the fact that the Métis are missing from broadcasting.  I wasn't seeing any Métis‑specific television.  Nobody was producing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              Those are the obstacles that people have to overcome if they are going to be able to produce in this country.  They need funds.  They need licensing money, or it is not going to happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              Myself‑‑ I have to tell you that I have another 13 shows of "Metcom" coming up again.  I don't know‑‑ if the doors don't open up with other broadcasters, then this show will no longer be around, either.  It just won't.  It can't survive with the limited amount of funds that are available, unless MMTN launches, which would help it.  It would be, of course, a signature series.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              But, again, like I say, what is missing on the overall‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              I speak on behalf of all of Canada, realistically, because I have the knowledge in a Human Resources background, and there is a very large deficiency in this country when it comes to the Métis people being recognized or being helped to participate and enjoy the benefits of Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, you have said that you plan to spend $8 million a year on program acquisition.  Could you tell us what proportion of this would be spent on Canadian production and what proportion on foreign production?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              MR. SCHAFFER:  According to the application that we have submitted, we have stated that we will try to go with 80 percent‑‑ make best efforts at 80 percent Canadian content.  So the majority of that $8 million will be spent on Canadian content‑‑ 80 percent, and 20 percent would be available for reaching out to other mixed‑blood programs around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, you have said that you want to operate on an 18‑hour broadcasting day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Do you intend to broadcast anything between midnight and 8:00 a.m.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              Will you go dark?  What would happen?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              MR. SCHAFFER:  I am not really sure.  I don't think that we, at this point‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              When we first launch, I don't think we are going to do a lot of broadcasting between those hours because of the lack, right at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              We are going to have to build the production library as we go.  Then, as we go, we would be able to look at that further, to fill those hours up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              And we do want to.  We want to operate on a 24‑hour basis, eventually, if at all possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              I know that most people probably use infomercials during those times.  It is not definitely out of the question, I guess, but it wouldn't be my first preference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Let's go back to the need to rapidly build a library, and I have been trying to discuss that with you in a very precise way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              How many hours of relevant production do you expect to have to find in the first year of your operation‑‑ original, Métis‑directed production?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              How many hours, or what percentage of your programming, and how much money will that involve?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              MR. SCHAFFER:  That would probably involve every bit of the budget that we would be able to grab from the "must carry" designation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              The full budget would be dedicated, primarily, to building that library.  That is really what it would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              And we can only reach out right now to what is available through‑‑ what the broadcasters have done up to this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              When we were in Banff last year, I put out 300 different applications to various broadcasters, and I got no replies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              So, from that point of view, yes, it will be a struggle to find that programming, but it's there.  There is some programming that we can reach into.  The rest of it will be Canadian content and new production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Could you name some of the production houses and the persons responsible that you would regard as the mostly likely people with whom you would work in order to develop this kind of production?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              MR. SCHAFFER:  Well, you know, this comes down to broadcasters, I think, mostly, and the other broadcasters knowing where‑‑ and other people that are Métis around the country, within regions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              I would hope that we could rely on some of what they have to be able to build that library, because, without it, we won't have a very big library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              Other than that, we do have other people, like Delores Smith, who does a series called "Beyond Words".  Andrea Menard does a number of different series.  She is Métis, and very, very talented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              Also, Derek Calderbank, and Professor Raoul McKay will be involved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              There are a number of companies across Canada that want to get involved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              I must say that I have had nothing but positive encouragement, and I have never heard anybody say that we shouldn't have this Métis Television Network.  I have never heard that, except for in the interventions here, which is the first time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You have said that you would be broadcasting 80 percent in English, and at least 5 percent in Michif.  That leaves 10 to 15 percent in the French language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              Is there French‑language production relevant to Métis audiences?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MR. SCHAFFER:  I believe that is a large part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              A lot of our history comes from the establishment of Canada, and that's where I come back to the original comments that I made to you.  The Métis people are really the establishment people of Canada, and I think they should be recognized as that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              What that means is, we have a large connection to the French.  We have a large connection to the Scottish and the Irish.  And those components are continually left out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              The French people are a definite part of our history.  We wouldn't be in existence, really, if it wasn't for those groups‑‑ the French, the Scottish and the Irish, as well as the English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              Then you have to take in the First Nations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              So, no, we wouldn't be able to survive without French, as a network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, can you name me a French‑language production directed at the Métis community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              MR. SCHAFFER:  No, I can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Can you name me a French‑language producer that would like to produce for you in French for the Métis community?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              MR. SCHAFFER:  No, actually, I really can't.  I have never put out a call to actually have them do that, because I would never set them up to fail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              Now I would like to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, if you are only going to cover 10 to 15 percent of your broadcast day in French, how is it that the quantum you would expect to gain from a subscriber would be the same in the French language as the English language?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              MR. SCHAFFER:  I am not sure that I understand the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              Do you understand the question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You have asked for 15 cents a month per subscriber, have you not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  That applies indifferently to the Quebec market and the English‑language market, does it not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Do you think it would be reasonable that a French subscriber should pay the same as an English subscriber, when the English subscriber is getting, on your count, five or six times as much programming as the French subscriber?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, I do.  I definitely do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              I believe that there are a lot of inequities out there anyway.  Why would we be, really, any different in that sense?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              When I look at the French‑English situation in the western part of Canada, I would be hard pressed to go into anybody's home in Saskatchewan and find them looking at CBC‑French, but French CBC is available, and it should be available to everybody across this country, just like the Métis Television Network should be available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              The French‑‑ in other words, what I am trying to say is, if they had to deal with this on a payment basis, if the subscribers in Saskatchewan or Alberta, or whatever, had to pay for that French service, they wouldn't have enough money to operate.  That is really what the bottom line is, because there wouldn't be enough people to back up that part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              Then, again, like I say, the French have a right to their culture, their heritage and their language, and they should be able to listen to it across Canada the same as the Métis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              And there are going to be inequities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              I have to tell you that I don't have all of the answers to absolutely everything.  We are a fledgling company, we are trying to launch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              As we go, a lot of these answers will be a lot more apparent, and, hopefully, we will do a lot better job than what we have seen done in the past.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Schaffer, you have based your subscriber revenue forecasts on the figure of 10.3 million subscribers, at 15 cents per subscriber per month.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Unfortunately, the service for which you are applying is a digital service only, but you have covered both analog and digital subscribers in your business plan.  This means that, at whatever quantum is finally determined, you will have, roughly, half the number of subscribers that are counted on in your business plan, meaning that you would get half the revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              Could you explain to us, or clear us up on how you would adjust your business plan in light of the fact that you will only have half the number of subscribers that you have forecasted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              MR. SCHAFFER:  Well, I can only say that we plan to do about 64.16 percent in programming and production.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              I really don't have all of the answers that I think you would ask of me all the time, and I do have to honestly apologize.  We are really trying to struggle.  We have been struggling for the last seven years trying to launch this network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              My finance person, Marty Kline, was supposed to be here today, and he would have been able to answer that a little bit better for me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Okay, Mr. Schaffer.  I think we have probably reached the end of the questions that I would have for you.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              MR. SCHAFFER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              I'm sorry that I couldn't be more specific about certain things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              Mr. Schaffer, you said to Commissioner French that there were 800,000 Métis.  I am looking at page 7 of your presentation today, which you left us with.  It is entitled "A Profile of Canada's Métis Population".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              Do you have that page?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              MR. SCHAFFER:  I am trying to find it right now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              Yes, I do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It says, "Métis identity"‑‑ and this is StatsCan in 2001‑‑ "292,000."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              Where do you come with the 800,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              MR. SCHAFFER:  I believe that the new census figures have been released now.  I don't have them with me at present, but I am sure we could get them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              What I am trying to say here is‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Schaffer, I am asking where you are getting the 800,000, because the next page‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              MR. SCHAFFER:  Actually, I got it from Debbie.  I thought that she was accurate, so I didn't know.  I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The next page shows an increase of 33 percent‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              I'm sorry, that's 1996 to 2001.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              For now, I guess, we should be considering that there are only 292,000 Métis, subject to the new census?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              MR. SCHAFFER:  To the new census.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              Also considering, of course, that a lot of people really don't know how to identify with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              You know, I think they would like to‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I know, it is based on self‑identification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, and I think that a lot of people really don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              Like I say, a lot of them are the French, the Scottish and the Irish, in that end of it, and they identify as being French, Scottish and Irish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              And then, after the establishment people, you have the rest of the immigration to Canada, the river people, and then, finally, the trade establishment, and those figures, obviously, go up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              And you will find, as we launch this network and get going, that those figures will change and Canada will gain a new identity because of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to talk about launch.  What I am hearing from you is, it will get better as time goes on, and you will know more as time goes on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              What I want to know is, day one, when you launch, do you have any capital in order to pay for those launch costs?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, we have actually done that.  We have secured funds through the Indian and Métis Fund in Saskatchewan, as well as Prairie Financial, to help in the actual launching costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              So they are there, once we‑‑ but we have to, basically, have the 9(1)(h) designation before we can actually get that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              I have to be honest about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  My final question is, under the policy that we are working on, this migration policy right now, it says that we have to consider affordability.  How should we look at affordability?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              I am saying, should we look at it as the StatsCan cut‑off poverty level, and affordability for somebody there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              How do we decide what is affordable and what is not affordable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              MR. SCHAFFER:  I don't want to be ignorant or anything like that, but the word "affordability" is used in what context?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              That is what I am missing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Under the policy, we are to consider the exceptional, national importance, et cetera, but we are also supposed to consider affordability in deciding who should have the status to go on digital.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              My question is, what frame of reference should we use for deciding affordability?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              MR. SCHAFFER:  I think that the best way to look at this would be, if you look at the way the Métis people have been able to participate‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Schaffer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How do we decide affordability?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              Tell us what you think we should say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              Should we be looking at a single woman under the poverty cut‑off level with two children?  Should we be looking at that person and saying, "As a whole, the basic package, right now, is affordable, but one more cent means that it is not affordable"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              What should we be looking at?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              Should we be looking at my colleague, who earns a fair bit of money?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But a lot less than before I took the government service.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How do we determine affordability?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              MR. SCHAFFER:  That's a good question.  I think that we can't afford not to have this channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              I think that, if we were to look at Stats Canada‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              Why would we look at Stats Canada?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              MR. SCHAFFER:  Okay.  So you are looking at Stats Canada to, then, evaluate what income levels?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              Is that what you are asking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  I am saying, how do we decide affordability?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              From what perspective do we look at it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              We look all across Canada, and we find out what the basic cost would be for basic digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              MR. SCHAFFER:  Right, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Should it never go higher than $20?  Is that the level?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              Because we have to consider this in the matrix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes, I understand that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              That's why we have only asked for 15 cents at this point.  We would like to prove ourselves as a network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              And we don't believe that the 15 cents is too much at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              Before we could ask for any more, we don't think that‑‑ we don't want to outprice ourselves, and we don't want to be unaffordable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              We are, basically, serving the needs of‑‑ again, like I say, from a Human Resources perspective, a lot of those people are not as wealthy as, for instance, your colleague who is sitting there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So your answer is, it's a cup of coffee, and we will, maybe, "cup of coffee" everybody to death.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              Is that really what it comes down to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              MR. SCHAFFER:  I think it is a little bit less than a cup of coffee, but I don't think there is really a dollar‑and‑cents figure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              When you look at the CBC, for instance, coming forward and asking for another dollar on top of the budget they already have, we are not asking for that.  We are asking for a minimal amount, 15 cents.  We don't think that it's a lot of money.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              The much bigger question is, of course, if there was any more money involved, it would certainly be‑‑ it is up to the Commission, totally, to decide what people can afford and what they can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              I am only in a position to say that, for the lack of this type of Canadian programming, and that type of thing, we can't afford to go on without it any longer as a country.  We need to work on that, and 15 cents isn't a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              We would have liked to have had a dollar, too, because, of course, with a dollar, we could turn around and do a lot higher production quality and values and things of that nature.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              But, again, 15 cents, we thought, was not outrageous.  It was about the same‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              We based this on the principle of APTN, when they started.  We would like to prove ourselves.  We feel that the Commission feels that APTN is a success, and we believe that they are a success.  I have no problem with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              APTN is a success.  You have done a great job.  Congratulations on that decision, because it has meant a lot to Canada.  It's missing‑‑ it's a big missing part of it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              And I don't think that 15 cents is going to break the average family.  Even those on welfare would not be hurt by an extra 15 cents at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              But, I think, if you are getting into a dollar or more, or whatever, I think that, then, you are taking that cup of coffee, and that's a lot out of some people's pockets.  Other people, no, they can afford it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              MS DIONNE:  Mr. Schaffer, I only have two questions.  You have made a commitment of at least 80 percent Canadian content.  Would you accept this as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              MR. SCHAFFER:  We have done a lot of deliberating about that, and, yes, we would.  We feel that we can do this credibly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              MS DIONNE:  You have made another commitment to broadcast a minimum of 5 percent of your programming in the Michif language.  Would you accept that, also, as a condition of licence?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              MS. SCHAFFER:  Not within the first year, but by the end of term we are trying to do that as a best effort.  We want to make that a best effort to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              MS DIONNE:  You mentioned by the end of term.  When, exactly, in the term do you feel that you would be able to provide 5 percent Michif?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              Third year, fourth year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              MR. SCHAFFER:  I think we were looking at the fourth year.  The fourth year and up is what‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              MS DIONNE:  Would you accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              MR. SCHAFFER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              MS DIONNE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Schaffer, I just have one question.  You said that you will target the average Canadian audience.  Can you tell me how this service, as a whole, will reflect and portray the Métis culture, given your statement that you are going to target the average Canadian audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              MR. SCHAFFER:  I believe that's a blanket statement on my part, to service that need of the average Canadian people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              It is our goal to reach out to people, and have them participate.  That's the most important thing.  We have not been able to participate as Métis people, really, in the broadcasting world here, and we want to see that more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              We want to see that, especially, through the development of reaching out to the establishment people again.  We want to see their connection to it, from the Irish, the Scottish, and the French, and build that component, which is, I think, what will make this network really quite unique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But what efforts are you going to make to ensure that Métis people are on‑screen, so that, if I turn to your channel, I know that I am watching a Métis channel that is going to expose me to this culture?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              MR. SCHAFFER:  May I answer that in a number of ways?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              One thing, for sure, is that, when I talk to the youth Board members‑‑ the youth Métis who are on this Board‑‑ they are very reflective on that question.  One of the things they said to us was:  We are Métis, but we are also Canadian.  We should be able to produce what we want, however we want to produce it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              So I don't know how we could turn around and actually try to mould something, or mould the creative thought of the producers out there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              The youth would like to say that, even though we are Métis, we would like to film, for instance, concerts and things of that nature, from our perspective.  That is really what it comes down to, we want to bring that perspective, and we will as part of the condition of licensing, because we understand that there will be conditions, and we will make our best efforts to make sure that it is Métis‑driven production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              That's what it's all about.  We want to reach out to those people, to have them participate in Canadian broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I hope your experience at your first CRTC hearing was a good one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              I will now give you a couple of minutes to wrap‑up and give us your best argument as to why you believe we should license your service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              MR. SCHAFFER:  Respectfully to you, the Commission, I thank you very much for allowing us this opportunity to be here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              The only thing that I can say is that, from my point of view, I want this to happen from a cultural identity of Canada‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              I want this to appear to be part of the framework of the Broadcasting Act, that it is completion, that it has met a certain completion, and that the Commission itself has made its best efforts, also, to realize that this Canadian identity is being lost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              What I mean by that is, simply, without you, the Commission, there is no way this could go forward.  I know that.  I have been doing this for a lot of years, and it can be the most futile thing if there aren't those types of protections within our Constitution and within people like you at the Commission who will help us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              We do not want to build a ghetto in Canada, if you will; we want to make it apparent that everybody can participate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              The bottom line really comes down to the Commission's want.  This is really a test, I think, for all of us to be here at this specific point in time, asking for this.  It is one of those things that will determine‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              Quite frankly, even myself, I am curious as to what decision you will come up with, because I am struggling with what the Canadian identity really is sometimes, especially as a Métis person; not as a producer, but as a Métis person.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              In production, I could produce anything around the world that I want.  I certainly wouldn't have to do Métis production.  But from the point of view of filling that need and that void in Canada, I felt that it was imperative to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              Without, again, the support mechanisms of the Commission, it would have to go to the courts, and the courts, then, would have to decide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              Really, does everything in Canada have to go through the courts in order to decide, when we have responsible governments and responsible groups like you and us sitting here today, discussing these values of Canadian identity?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              When we look at it, every other country in the world, or every nationality, would like to have a television network, whether it be the Italian people or the Greek people.  It doesn't really matter what part of Europe or what part of the world they come from, they all would like a channel, and they would all like to be represented.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              But yet, at the same time, if our Canadian Television Fund and our Canadian money continues to go into, for instance, the Italian people's production or the Greek people's production‑‑ they already have their own countries.  They already have that production.  They already have access to those productions that are done.  Why do they need to use Canada as a launching ground, and our moneys in Canada for that purpose, when we really should be identifying with Canadian culture, Canadian reality, and trying to make thatthe aspiration, I believe, of where the Act is going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              When you look at the Broadcasting Act, and look at the wording specifically, stating that‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              And if you look at all of these other networks that are supposed to be‑‑ and when they apply to you, they state to you that they are going to do their best efforts to make sure that Aboriginal programming is accounted for.  It's not there.  It's not apparent.  There is no transparency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              The only thing that I feel is transparent is what I am doing right now.  I am sitting here, right in front of you, asking for transparency,

and to identify what Canadian broadcasting is, because we want to fulfil that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              I hope that I have said what you need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Schaffer, Ms Schaffer, Mr. Gustin, thank you very much for being here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              We will now take a 15‑minute break.  We will resume at five minutes to eleven.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1042 / Suspension à 1042

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1100 / Reprise à 1100

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              Madam Secretary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 2 on the agenda, which is an application by Diversity Television Inc., on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a Category 1 national digital undertaking to be known as Canada One TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              The proposed service will be a national, English‑language, digital specialty programming service that will focus on Canada's ethnoculturally diverse, multicultural and multiracial society, with a particular emphasis on popular drama programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Paul de Silva, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              Mr. de Silva, you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

*PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              MR. de SILVA:  Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.  I am Paul de Silva.  My colleagues,Amos Adetuyi, to my left, and Alfons Adetuyi, to my right, seated in the first row behind our panel, and I have been working for at least the past five years for this chance to appear before you to start a new television service to be the catalyst for change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              Canada One will be a permanent place for Canadians of all racial and cultural backgrounds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              Before proceeding any further, please let me introduce the rest of our team today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              Beside me is Jim Byrd.  Jim, as you probably know, has vast experience in broadcasting, and was Vice‑President and head of CBC English‑Language Television for five years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              We are delighted that Jim has agreed to assist with the Launch and startup of Canada One TV as Chief Operating Officer, if our application is successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              Beside Amos is Patricia Scarlett, President of Scarlett Media, a television and film distribution company focused on culturally diverse products.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              Going to the other end of this row we have Floyd Kane, Vice‑President of Creative and Business Affairs of DHX Media, a film and television company based on the east coast.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              DHX is our enabling investor in this project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              Beside him, from the west coast, is Jennifer Ouano, from Vancouver's Elastic Entertainment.  Jennifer, who was co‑creator and Senior Producer of Zed TV, is heading up our new media plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              In the second row we have our advisors.  Starting from behind Patricia is Kaan Yigit of Solutions Research Group.  Kaan, as you know, was the Research Director for the CAB's Cultural Diversity Task Force, overseen by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              Joel Fortune, from Johnston and Buchan, is beside Kaan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              We have Wayne Albo, Executive Partner of Calcap, our financial advisors; and beside Wayne is Terri Wills from the Nordicity Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              Last, but not least, is Les Lawrence from DiversiPro, a consultancy specializing in diversity training initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              Quickly, please, allow me to note that we also have here today Michael Donovan, the Chief Executive Officer of DHX Media; Andrew Cardozo‑‑ no stranger to this room‑‑ a member of the Advisory Council of Canada One TV; and Mary Barroll, who is counsel for Diversity Television Inc.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              Thank you for the opportunity to appear to present our case for Canada One TV today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              I would like to begin with a quote by the great African‑Canadian singer and activist, and member of the Order of Canada‑‑ and many of you know her music‑‑ Salome Bey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              Salome said:

~                     "Television more than any other medium, holds up the mirror in which Canadian society can see itself reflected.  The television pictures are vital: they are in colour."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              I would like to screen our video for you at this point.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              MR. DE SILVA:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, we believe it's time.  It's time to add new voices, consistent diversity, new owners, and more authenticity to the Canadian broadcasting system for the 6 million visibly diverse Canadians‑‑ for everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              The reason we are here today is straightforward.  Canadian television, especially Canadian drama, does not adequately reflect all members of our society‑‑ in our view, not by a long shot.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              We know there are quite a few ethnic third‑language programming services in Canada.  Local ethnic television stations reach out to specific communities in our larger cities.  But if you look at the lack of mainstream, English, high‑budget, popular drama programs that actually reflect Canadian diversity, it is apparent that multilanguage ethnic stations don't bridge that gap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              Under the Commission's new open entry approach for third‑language services, more third‑language programming, the bulk of it non‑Canadian, is available.  This provides a choice to many, but it doesn't present Canadian society, and it's not multicultural.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              Turning to the English‑language broadcast sector, which is the sector we intend to serve, we had Solutions Research Group reprise its 2003 groundbreaking analysis of diversity on Canadian television.  This time SRG focused on drama programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              We found little improvement in closing the gap in representation of Canadian diversity in drama programming, with the improvement being attributed, by and large, to the broadcast of one‑‑ that's right, one movie during the sample week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              Just as important, we still find that visible minorities and Aboriginal characters are often relegated to secondary or background roles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              Looking more deeply into the Canadian television production industry, the conclusion, once again, was that the industry does not reflect the diversity of Canadian society.  Ekos Research estimates that only 13.4 percent of production industry personnel are from visible minority backgrounds.  This is less than one‑third of the relative population in the largest urban centres, where most of the programming is being produced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              This is a huge gap in the enjoyment of the opportunities made by our broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              The industry, therefore, is still not representative of Canadian society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              On TV, we need a choice that will draw viewers from all ethnocultural backgrounds into the shared Canadian experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              This presents a challenge and an opportunity to be taken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              How are we going to meet this opportunity?  With great, diverse, original programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              I would ask Amos Adetuyi and Patricia Scarlett now to take you through our programming plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Our plan is straightforward.  We will show Canadians popular programs, inspired by Canadian society as it really is, and that speaks with an authentic voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              First, our schedule will feature drama programming‑‑ at least 60 percent.  Why drama?  Dramatic programs, whether whimsical, absurd, heart‑wrenching or hilarious, continue to be the most popular for Canadian audiences.  Dramatic programming presents us an opportunity to tell our collective story as a nation, and to work out who we aspire to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              Drama programs are at the top of the TV hierarchy.  If people from all cultural backgrounds deserve reflection on TV, and to be in the business of making TV, then they need to be present in the making of drama programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              Second, we will concentrate on high‑budget and high‑quality programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              Our focus groups made an obvious point.  If a program isn't high‑quality in production values and content, then Canadians will not watch it.  We need to acknowledge this fact upfront and make the best, not the most we can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              Third, our original programs must meet two out of four diversity content points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              Inspired by the familiar MAPL criteria for music, we have invented a measure for original content to qualify as diversity content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              Two of the four key creative positions of producer, director, writer and lead actor will need to be filled by persons that are self‑identifying members of a visible minority group or an Aboriginal person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              All of our original programming must achieve at least two out of the four points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              Fourth, we will show Canadian drama in prime time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              If we are serious about Canadians watching Canadian shows, then they need to be shown consistently, every night, in prime time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              Commissioners, we estimate that by Year 5 of our licence period, this channel will increase the amount of original Canadian drama by more than 15 percent overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              Over to you, Patricia.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              MS SCARLETT:  Fifth, all of our programming will be multicultural in nature.  All programs, original and acquired, Canadian and non‑Canadian, must be consistent with the multicultural nature of our service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              If a program does not speak significantly to the mandate of Canada One TV, it will not be shown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              In my experience in the international distribution business, I can attest to the fact that there is an untapped supply of English‑language, non‑Canadian programming from other countries that is directly relevant to Canada's multicultural experience.  This includes programs like "Karioki High" from New Zealand.  You saw a brief clip in the video today.  It tells the story of a diverse group of teenagers in a performing arts school, and the personal and academic challenges they face.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              Other countries, like Jamaica, a country whose national motto is "Out of many one people", Australia and South Africa have their own experiences in multiculturalism to tell and high‑quality programs to share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              I think that Canadians from all backgrounds will be encouraged to learn that others are grappling with similar issues and to see those stories on TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Thanks, Patricia.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              We will offer international programming, most of it originally in English, and a small amount subtitled, but the heart of the service will be original, new productions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              Let me share with you quickly three ideas for original programs, of the kind that are not found in the system today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              "Chinatown Cops" is a comedy series about Jay Walker and his partner Rick Shaw, two plainclothes veterans of Vancouver's Chinatown beat, and self‑proclaimed super cops.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              "Black Code" is a fast‑paced, heart‑stirring, six‑hour drama series that reawakens the adventures of Black Canadians from 1624 to the present day.  This is not the Underground Railroad, and these are untold stories to most Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              "North South" is a gutsy, contemporary, half‑hour drama focusing on the lives of four Halifax families working in the construction industry.  A pilot for this program has already been shot, to positive critical review, but it has not gone into production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              All of these are great ideas.  If Canada One TV existed, they would be in production today and on the air tomorrow.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              MR. de SILVA:  Canada One TV will not work in isolation.  We have established a Diversity Advisory Council with a clear mandate.  We are pleased that Deepa Mehta, from Toronto, Karen Lam, from Vancouver, Michelle Williams, from Halifax, Sharam Tabet, from Toronto, Andrew Cardozo in Ottawa, and two new additions, Napoleon Gardiner, from Saskatchewan, a former director of APTN and a strong advocate for Aboriginal peoples, and Fo Niemi, from the Montreal‑based Centre for Action on Race Relations, have all agreed to join our council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              We know that there is goodwill in the industry toward increasing diversity.  This is why we will convene a regular Broadcaster Programming Panel to leverage all available opportunities to advance ethnocultural diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              We are very pleased that John Galway, Executive Director of the Harold Greenberg Fund, has agreed to chair this panel to get the work started.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              Now, making the kinds of programs that we need, obviously, costs money, so I will turn it over to Jim Byrd to speak about our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              MR. BYRD:  Thank you, Paul.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              Commissioners, the key commitment made by Canada One TV is to spend at least 65 percent of our previous year's revenues on Canadian programming.  This is amongst the highest such commitment for Canadian programming expenditures by a specialty service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              It amounts to an average expenditure of $26 million on Canadian programs each year, and $180 million over the licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              This will have an immediate impact on the amount of high‑quality, multicultural programming in the system, and especially in the area of drama programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              To free up maximum expenditures for programming, we had to look carefully at two things:  our overhead costs, and the costs of our non‑Canadian programming.  Both of these have been kept down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              Regarding overhead, it is now possible, through good partnerships and business arrangements, to access the infrastructure required to run a specialty service on a turnkey and relatively low‑cost basis.  It isn't necessary to reinvent the wheel in specialty broadcasting, and we don't intend to do so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              For non‑Canadian programming, we are targeting productions from largely untapped markets.  Broadcasters in Canada and elsewhere overlooked this product, so it is relatively inexpensive.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              It is the competition for U.S. commercial series programming that drives non‑Canadian programming costs up.  By avoiding this kind of programming, which is inconsistent with our mandate in any case, we can save much more of our money for Canadian shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              Of course, to support high‑quality productions we need a secure and consistent source of revenue.  The 50‑cent wholesale fee we have proposed, coupled with wide distribution, perfectly fits the bill.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              It will provide a consistent revenue stream that can be directed immediately to Canadian production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              MR. de SILVA:  I would now like to ask Floyd Kane to describe another key part of our application:  training.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              MR. KANE:  I have worked in the film and television business in Nova Scotia for nearly 10 years, as a lawyer, writer and producer.  On countless occasions I have been to sets and attended events where I was the only person of colour.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              At Canada One TV, the commitment to making opportunities for under‑represented groups in Canada is bred in the bone.  Our focused efforts will be different from past initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              First, we will reach out differently.  Our executives will assume direct responsibility for outreach, and will be accountable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              Second, once we have encouraged people to get excited about our industry, we will keep them excited through a dynamic mentorship strategy that we have developed with DiversiPro, experts in the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              Third, we will reach out to our colleagues within the industry and our fellow broadcasters to strike strategic partnerships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              Fourth, Canada One has made a multimillion dollar commitment to script and pilot development‑‑ more than $2 million to development initiatives over the licence term, and close to $5 million to pilot programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              Lastly, and most important, the training supported by Canada One TV will be focused on sustainability.  Single initiatives can be helpful, but without continued support, and real opportunities in the end, many culturally and racially diverse people leave the system.  Canada One TV will address that problem, especially by creating opportunities for challenging dramatic work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              MR. de SILVA:  Thank you, Floyd.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              A new media strategy is critical, as we know, for any television service today.  I would ask Jennifer Ouano to take us through our strategy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              MS OUANO:  Canada One TV has the opportunity, from the starting gate, to respond to a new generation of content creators and consumers across all digital media platforms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              Young Canadians, who, on the whole, are more culturally diverse than previous generations, want and expect as much entertainment at their fingertips as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              This is a perfect match for Canada One.  These days diversity is just a webcam away.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              We will give our audience the abilities to interact through online communities, to help shape our programs, and to upload content so that their stories can be seen and shared.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              Canada One will be a place to aggregate user‑generated content, edit it and present it professionally as a mirror to a wide audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              Much of this user‑generated content will appear on Canada One's flagship TV program, "On The Scene".


LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              It is a multiplying effect.  The TV brand will inspire and encourage the creation of user‑generated content, and the opportunity to create this content will build audience loyalty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              In addition, some of Canada One's programs will have an extended "on demand" life as suitable platforms roll out, letting the audience choose how they want their viewing experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              Through Canada One, the presentation of diversity in Canada will move together with the consumer trends and shifts in new media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              MR. de SILVA:  In conclusion, Madam Chair and Commissioners, we know that Canada is becoming more culturally and racially diverse every day.  We know that soon, incredibly soon in demographic terms, a majority of the populations of our largest cities will be visible minorities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              We know that, in a few years, it is expected that Canada's population growth will come primarily from immigration, and we know that there is a growing trend for the growth of so‑called "ethnic enclaves" in Canadian cities, as defined by Statistics Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              In 1981 there were just six such enclaves in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.  In 2001, according to StatsCan, there were 254.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              Canada One TV is the proactive response to this ongoing change.  Canada One TV is a bridge between the so‑called "ethnic enclaves" and the broader multicultural Canadian society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              We need to embrace the change we see around us and to lead Canada to what it aspires to be:   inclusive, multicultural and tolerant‑‑ a flourishing cross‑cultural marketplace for the peaceful clash of differences, leading to the emergence of something new and profound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              Clearly, we believe that Canada One TV is an exceptionally important service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              Our service is targeted directly to showing Canada's ethnocultural diversity in all its richness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              We look forward to answering any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. de Silva, and your panel members.  Welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              Mr. de Silva I will direct my questions to you, and then you may ask other members of your panel to answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              MR. de SILVA:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Firstly, I would like to start with understanding your application correctly.  I really want to get my head around this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              You are applying for a mainstream specialty service that will be primarily in English.  Programming will be drawn from a number of categories, excluding news, reporting and actualities, sports, religion and game shows.  You are going to focus on drama, but your distinguishing feature is the presence and portrayal of cultural diversity, both on the screen and behind the scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              Have I got that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              MR. de SILVA:  That's a great summation, I think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              THE CHAIRPERSON:  With your focus on drama, are you asking us to consider this to be a drama channel for the specific reason of defining it as a specialty service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              MR. de SILVA:  I think we are asking you to consider it a multicultural channel, a specialty channel that has a special focus on representing the ethnocultural diversity, and specifically the visible minority presence in Canada, that will also appeal to a wide range of Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you asking us, then, to classify this service as a diversity service, for the purposes of defining it as a genre?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              MR. de SILVA:  My response to that is, if you are asking‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              Quite frankly, I wasn't aware that there was a special category called "Diversity Service" in the CRTC's Regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's my point, there isn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              So are you asking us to add a new genre to the definition of specialty services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              MR. de SILVA:  My initial reaction would be that, if it is the Commission's desire to add a new genre to your range of services, as a diversity service, I would be very open to that, but I think I would like to consult with Joel Fortune on this question.  He certainly has a broader range in terms of the regulatory implications of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize if I didn't make myself clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              There isn't a prescribed list of specialty services; it's up to the applicants to come to us and define their service for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              I want to really get to the heart of the matter right at the beginning.  You are saying that this is not a drama channel, necessarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549              MR. de SILVA:  Primarily drama, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1550              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Primarily not.  So it is a multicultural, multi‑ethnic diversity channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1551              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1552              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that's how we are to look at this channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1553              MR. de SILVA:  I would embrace the term "diversity" in that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1554              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Because in various places throughout the application, including your "Nature of Service"‑‑ and we will get into the details of your "Nature of Service" in a bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1555              On page 20 of the supplementary brief, you say that "Canada One TV's programming will be popular and mainstream in nature."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1556              That is quoted from your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1557              Could you elaborate for us on what you mean by that, bearing in mind that, essentially, that phrase could be used for just about any English‑language service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1558              MR. de SILVA:  Yes, Madam Chair‑‑ popular and mainstream.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1559              You raise an interesting question, which is terminology.  We really faced this throughout our application.  There are many changing terms, from "ethnocultural" to "diverse" to "visible minority" to "people of colour", et cetera.  So terminology is very, very important for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1560              Popular, yes, because we want it to be popular with a broad range of people, but, specifically, this is a specialty application for ethnocultural diversities, as defined by the Equity Act, and specifically visible minority populations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1561              In terms of the demographics of this, when we say "popular", our first target is the populations we have described.  But we also believe that there is a very important role for sharing and building bridges with other communities, which would, I guess, include what is termed as the "mainstream" population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1562              Also, to define the word "popular" a little further, we are not talking about fringe programming, we are talking about programming that will be produced with high‑quality production values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1563              I should say that, as a team of people, Amos and his brother Alfons have recently produced a series called "Josie H" for mainstream television, so we have experience in that area, and we know how to produce popular programming, I would submit.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1564              In terms of mainstream, we believe that the visible minority population, as we have shown, in terms of its growing numbers, will be mainstream; if not now ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1565              Again, that terminology is evolving in terms of what "mainstream" actually means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1566              I hope that comes close to answering that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1567              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will have an opportunity to answer a few more in terms of your terminology, because in your "Nature of Service", as I said, in particular, you say that this service will reflect and focus on multicultural and multiracial themes and values, originate from ethnoculturally diverse sources, or be targeted to an ethnoculturally diverse mainstream audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1568              Let's take these one‑by‑one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1569              What are multicultural and multiracial themes and values?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1570              MR. de SILVA:  I think some of the programming that we showed in our video could address that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1571              Multicultural values, I think, are ones that have been defined many times in our legislation in Canada, those that reflect the wide diversity of our populations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1572              Particularly, I think the Equity Act states that anything that is ethnocultural is defined as non‑English and non‑French‑‑ including non‑English, non‑French and Aboriginal communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1573              In terms of the Canadian definition of "multicultural", it would include for us all people.  All of us make up Canada‑‑ all influences, in terms of both the founding nations, the Aboriginal people, as well as people coming from new countries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1574              Canada is multicultural, so those themes and values that we all collectively have built to make Canadian society what it is are multicultural values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1575              In terms of your question about sources, that is a key part of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1576              In a sense, what we have shown is that the sources for programming‑‑ for instance, the study that we undertook with the Nordicity Group in terms of the key creative inputs for drama produced over a three‑year period through the CTF programming showed that‑‑ I believe it was 4.5 percent‑‑ and I would have to switch from my Word program to Excel in my mind, which sometimes is a little difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1577              I am sure that Terri Wills, from Nordicity, could help us out with exact numbers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1578              But only 4.5 percent had two out of the four key creative inputs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1579              So when we talk about sources, we talk about programming that will be made by or made with a primary input‑‑ at least two out of four‑‑ from visible minority sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1580              I think that may answer the "sources" question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1581              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will talk about programming a bit later on, and your diversity tool, but I want to take you back to "multicultural themes and values."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1582              Based on what you have just said, is there any difference between Canadian themes and values, therefore?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1583              MR. de SILVA:  May I understand this question correctly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1584              Are you asking if people‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1585              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Aren't multicultural themes and values Canadian themes and values?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1586              MR. de SILVA:  Absolutely.  No question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1587              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, back to your "Nature of Service", what do you mean when you add "or to be targeted to an ethnoculturally diverse mainstream audience"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1588              That broadens the scope of your "Nature of Service".  Therefore, we can only conclude that you could just about put anything on this television service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1589              MR. de SILVA:  Yes, I can see that if it is interpreted that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1590              Maybe we will refer you back to our schedule, Madam Commissioner, on which we worked very, very hard.  We took a snapshot, essentially, of our second‑year programming.  I refer to our programming grid, and also to some of the samples we tried to show in our video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1591              The type of programming we are talking about, particularly in prime time, is the kind of programming that you would not normally see on any Canadian service.  There will be some programming, as we have said, because of the supply of Canadian programming that has multicultural themes.  There is not a huge amount in inventory.  There will be some that have been seen, and only chosen because they represent the values that we want to be represented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1592              But, in our prime time, as Pat Scarlett can elaborate on a little further‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1593              And there is also the availability of these multicultural programs that people don't really know about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1594              For instance, we all know, when we go to film festivals in Toronto, Vancouver, Halifax, that we will see wonderful programs that only show once and never get a screening again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1595              There is this incredible wealth of programming that exists from countries that never show up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1596              The final thing is, our original programming will come from those two out of four original programming, and the acquired programming I would like to pass over to Pat to elaborate on, very quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1597              MS SCARLETT:  For acquired programs, we have, in fact, scoured the country, coast‑to‑coast, looking at what is available that is Canadian content that meets our two out of four criteria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1598              In fact, there is some programming available, but it is quite limited.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1599              What we have found is that, in fact, many of the rights are not available, because they are tied up with other broadcasters right now.  However, we were able to find some Canadian content that meets our guidelines, and, as such, we are optimistic that we will be able to fill out those slots in the schedule with Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1600              But equally important is the fact that there is a significant amount of programming in the international marketplace that is in the English language that reflects multicultural themes and talent on‑screen and behind the scenes, which I think would meet the mandate of Canada One TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1601              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1602              I will have more questions about the sources and the diversity tool, but I want to talk first about the presence gap, as you talk about it in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1603              You used terms such as "urgent need within the broadcasting system for the provision of stories for, from and about the people who represent the changing face of Canada."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1604              You say that "visible minorities are virtually invisible on Canadian television."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1605              We do have the task force report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1606              We do have the commitments from mainstream broadcasters to reflect diversity in their programming.  They must provide to us annual reports.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1607              Just last week I received a copy of the RTNDA Diversity Code.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1608              Your own research shows that the presence gap has, in fact, become more narrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1609              Some intervenors maintain that all of the goals you have identified in your application are being met by what they do every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1610              Why do you feel that, without Canada One, the Canadian broadcasting system will always have this presence gap?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1611              MR. de SILVA:  Madam Chair, you have raised several questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1612              Why is it urgent?  Are we virtually‑‑ and when I say "we", I mean are we visible minorities invisible?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1613              The fact that your own CRTC requirement says‑‑ and it is very applaudable‑‑ that you require the reporting now of that has helped a great deal.  I think it has opened up a lot of possibilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1614              And the Diversity Report you mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1615              Urgent‑‑ again, why do we believe it's urgent?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1616              The fact of the matter is that demographic change is happening so rapidly in Canada, and we have mentioned how important it is for Canadian television to reflect this reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1617              Drama, as we know, is the main source of popular entertainment and programming, and information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1618              Without that, as Serena Voskrishna, our Director, pointed out, if we don't have a chance to tell our stories in prime time quality drama, we don't exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1619              Why is that urgent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1620              I would like to refer to a recent article that was written by Allan Gregg in the "Walrus Magazine", which opened up a lot of our eyes to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1621              This issue of ethnic enclaves, and a growing disassociation, particularly by second generation Canadians‑‑ second generation Canadians from multi‑ethnic sources‑‑ is a really serious issue.  It is how young people see themselves in this country, and how they see Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1622              With a growing disassociation by young people, and new immigrants from the mainstream of Canada, this presents, potentially, a very serious social issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1623              So we do believe that the issue is urgent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1624              I could expand on that if you like, but I think I have‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1625              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Essentially, I want to know why you believe that, with the tools in place that we have‑‑ that is, the requirement of the broadcasters to meet their own diversity goals, and with the RTNDA devoted to a Diversity Code‑‑ why you feel that the current broadcasters are not up to the challenge of closing this presence gap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1626              MR. de SILVA:  I think one of the key words you have used, Madam Commissioner, without criticizing, because I always like to accentuate the positive, is that, yes, those requirements are important, but we have analyzed them, and in looking at them we realized that, while a lot of them are applaudable in terms of what they are attempting to do, they do not end up producing programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1627              Many of them are training initiatives.  They are initiatives to reach out to the community.  But the tangible result‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1628              And there is anecdotal evidence and there is statistical evidence, and the statistical evidence is very, very clear.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1629              Terri Wills from the Nordicity Group did a very serious evaluation of that, and I think, to answer your question succinctly, those stats speak volumes.  So I would ask Terri Wills to talk about the actual representation and how that has changed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1630              MS WILLS:  We conducted a study, where we took a look at some analyses done by the Canada One team, which looked at Canadian television‑funded drama coded into the two out of the four point system.  So we looked at the numbers of actors, producers, directors and writers producing Canadian drama.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1631              We then conducted a series of interviews with film commissioners, and major production houses across the country, to verify those figures, and we found them to be very accurate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1632              What we found was that there is a higher representation amongst actors, as compared to producers, writers and directors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1633              We are finding that there isn't necessarily an outlet for that type of talent to produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1634              We find that there are many at the junior levels, but because of the dearth of drama in Canada, it typically is very hard for entry level to move up the ranks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1635              Therefore, we found that, if you were to commission under the two point system, it would increase, potentially, the level of producers and directors involved in production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1636              MR. de SILVA:  Thank you, Terri.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1637              The presence gap can best be described by the study that Kaan Yigit did, Madam Chair, and I would ask him to elaborate on that, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1638              MR. YIGIT:  Thanks, Paul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1639              Before I actually go there, what I would like to do is take the Commission through the fundamentals of the analysis and the numbers‑‑ the objective numbers that are verifiable in the process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1640              Before I do that, I feel like I have been making the business case for diversity for a number of years.  In fact, I think the first time that I was involved in a case like this was in 1992.  At that time I wrote a report that analyzed the demographic future of Ottawa, because what is now Omni was extending its signal.  It wanted to rebroadcast in this marketplace.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1641              Afterwards, in the mid‑nineties, I was involved with Milestone Radio, which owns and operates the first Black‑owned and operated station in Toronto, which has now an audience of over half a million people, which is the size of Hamilton, Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1642              I was there making the case for that station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1643              With that background, I would like to give you some of the fundamental numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1644              To add to Paul's point, it is really not about the system of failing miserably, it is simply large numbers and speed of change that we are dealing with.  Whatever we have in place is good, but what needs to be there is a little bit more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1645              Let me give you the fundamentals.  The first number is 1 million.  That is the number of new Canadians that come to this country on an every‑four‑year basis.  That is the population of Calgary every four years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1646              The second big number is the 4 million new Canadians since the mid‑eighties, basically, in family ages that are now having children.  Some of the children are in their early twenties, as you saw in the video.  Some of them are preschool, some of them are tweens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1647              All of the population growth for Toronto and Vancouver will be coming from visible minorities, exclusively, in the next 15 years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1648              If you look at the analysis like I did, you will see that it is absolutely flat in every other group except the visible minority groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1649              You know the other numbers, which are well publicized:  51 percent of both Toronto and Vancouver will be made up of visible minorities in 10 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1650              And, in that time period, the visible minority population of this country will be bigger than the population of Quebec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1651              That is the big numbers part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1652              When we did the 2003 report on diversity in Canadian television, which is some 400 pages‑‑ and you are familiar with it, of course, because the Commission was a participant‑‑ we looked at some 400 hours of programming.  It would have taken us 15 days to watch it, if we had been watching it back‑to‑back.  At the time, we produced a report, and the task force filed that report with the Commission.  That report showed the presence gap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1653              The numbers were as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 1654              In 2003, 13.5 percent of all dramatic roles were filled by visible minorities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1655              In the primary roles‑‑ these are the money roles, basically, so the lead character roles‑‑ the representation was 10.3 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1656              At that point, 18.5 was the benchmark for English‑speaking Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1657              So the primary role gap was 2:1, more or less.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1658              Let's fast forward to 2006.  We replicated the study under the same fundamental basics‑‑ and, in fact, this is obviously verifiable. Again, it is on the public record, the first and the second study.  And we are doing head counting, so we are not asking questions of people which have subjective responses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1659              Here is what we found.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1660              The primary character representation in Canadian drama went from 10.3 percent to 12.2 percent.  That is including one movie that happened to appear on CTV during the sample period, which was "Hollywood and Bollywood".  If we had actually taken that out, it would have gone down a bit further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1661              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What if you add "Little Mosque on the Prairie"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1662              MR. YIGIT:  That's on the CBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1663              As you will remember, Madam Chair, first of all, this was done in May 2006.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1664              Actually, that is a good point, because if we added "Little Mosque on the Prairie", the numbers probably would have gone up a little bit more, if that was available in the private sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1665              The issue is:  How sensitive are numbers in which one program could make a substantial difference‑‑ a 10, 15 or 20 percent difference to the overall representation numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1666              The key point that I wanted to make is, what happened in the two years was that the incidental character numbers went from 14.9 percent to 24.4 percent, in that period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1667              So, basically, what happened was, there were more visible minorities as cab drivers, doormen, waiters and girl Fridays on‑screen in that period.  That's where the change was coming from, but the primary numbers really didn't move all that much, only 2 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1668              If you do a little bit of math‑‑ and I don't want to oversimplify the situation‑‑ to catch up to today's population benchmarks for the whole of English Canada, for primary characters, would take about 10 to 15 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1669              If you wanted to catch up to Toronto and Vancouver, it would take some 40 years plus.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1670              Of course, I am using that for effect, but the point is this:  there has been improvement.  All the research we have done, not for this application, but previously, in this report, said the same thing:  people perceive that there has been progress, but that more needs to be done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1671              Three years later, when we do a very similar kind of research, we find exactly the same thing, where the audience perceives that there is a gap, the content analysis shows that there is a gap, and the numbers show that the trajectory of diversity will be, more or less, in this line, because since 1991 our birth rate has been declining.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1672              That, combined, creates the context for us to say, objectively:  Is this the only answer to fix it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1673              Probably not.  I don't know.  The point is, the situation has gotten better, but a lot needs to be done, given what we are looking at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1674              I'm sorry for that very long preamble, but I wanted to get the material on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1675              THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, that was thorough, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1676              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Perhaps, Madam Commissioner, I could sum up the way we look at the whole situation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1677              We appreciate what is happening with the Diversity Report and the Broadcasting Act and the CRTC's sensitivity around diversity issues, and we look at that as a foundation that we can build on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1678              But here we have the situation of a foundation, and there are 6 million diverse and Aboriginal Canadians standing outside waiting for this house to be built, and we are saying that Canada One TV is prepared and ready to build the ground floor, together with other broadcasters, and to act as an incubator and generate and seed the system to build this house.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1679              That is kind of the way we look at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1680              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1681              I would now like to move to the tools that you will use, as you propose in your application, to ensure that your application and all of its programming, Canadian and non‑Canadian, commissioned and acquired, is multicultural in nature, or is relevant to, reflects on‑screen, or includes tangible participation from members of Canada's diverse ethnocultural communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1682              I understand your four‑point system, your diversity content tool, and that, to qualify, a program must meet two out of the four points for writer, director, producer or star, or principal speaking role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1683              Is there a difference in your measurement tool between star and principal speaking role?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1684              If I were to use an ensemble cast as an example, how do you determine who is the star or who occupies the principal speaking role?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1685              MR. de SILVA:  That's a good question, and it is one of the questions that we did not anticipate in all of our rehearsals.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1686              MR. de SILVA:  I would say that, if it was an ensemble cast, obviously we would have to use different criteria.  But, usually, even though there is an ensemble cast‑‑ let's take a great show, one of my favourite shows on TV‑‑ American, unfortunately‑‑ "Grey's Anatomy" ensemble cast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1687              In a case like that, I believe that four of the primary characters are of visible minority background.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1688              I would say that we just need one out of the four to quality.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1689              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  If I may add, to be fair to the way we looked at it in our research that Nordicity did‑‑ and that was analyzing three years of Canadian‑funded drama‑‑ when we were looking at those categories of producer, director, writer and actor, we looked at the ensemble in the actor category, and if just one actor was a person of colour, that got a point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1690              And similar to the other categories, as well, in a whole series, if one of the directors‑‑ let's say there were 13 episodes and 13 directors.  If one was visibly diverse, that got a point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1691              That's the way we looked at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1692              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The whole series got a point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1693              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Yes.  In terms of the numbers we presented, that is how broad we tried to define it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1694              MR. de SILVA:  I should say that we still only came out with 4.5 percent representation, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1695              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your oral presentation, you said that this diversity content tool would be used for all original programming.  Does that include non‑Canadian?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1696              In other words, will you use this tool to assess non‑Canadian programming and whether or not it meets your mandate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1697              MR. de SILVA:  That will be our first filter, to look for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1698              Let me ask Pat to comment on that, because she has done a very thorough look at the availability of multicultural programming from the sources we mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1699              MS SCARLETT:  Priority will be given to programs that meet the filter, but in the event that we find content that, for example, may, in fact, support the mandate of Canada One TV, but may not necessarily meet all of the criteria, they will also be considered.  But that's in a secondary and exceptional situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1700              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But because the diversity content tool is quite specific‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1701              MS SCARLETT:  It is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1702              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ how will you assess the programming that you just mentioned, that meets the mandate but doesn't necessarily fulfil the requirements of the diversity content tool?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1703              MS SCARLETT:  This is what I am saying.  We will give priority and will always seek to seek programming that fits that particular criteria, but in the event that we come across something‑‑ for example, the actors on‑screen are multicultural and multi‑ethnic and multiracial, but perhaps, on the production side, it was not produced by people of diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1704              That's what I mean.  It will be considered, but that would be a secondary and exceptional situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1705              MR. de SILVA:  I would add, Madam Chair, that a key part of it is the thematic of the program‑‑ if the themes fit the themes that we want to portray.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1706              MR. de SILVA:  I'm sorry, I am getting a signal from Joel to add to this, if we may.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1707              It's difficult with him being over my left shoulder.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1708              MR. FORTUNE:  Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1709              I would like to refer you to something that the Applicant filed.  It was in response to a Commission deficiency question.  The date of our letter is January 9, 2007.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1710              We discussed, basically, how the filter would work and how we would go about evaluating programming to ensure that it met the "Nature of Service".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1711              There were some tools identified in that letter, and there are four of them.  One was the representation‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1712              And this is when programs don't meet the two out of four primary diversity filter for original programs.  This isn't for acquired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1713              One key matter would be representation in speaking roles.  That's very important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1714              The second was, as Paul just said, the presentation of programming with themes and issues that are clearly related to multiculturalism and diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1715              The third was, substantial creative input by diverse people into the production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1716              And the fourth was at the ownership level of the production company.  If there is substantial ownership at the ownership level.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1717              I think, in this response, and also in the supplementary brief, it was outlined that, together with these concrete tools, one of the functions of the Advisory Council is to see how these tools are working and find others to make sure that the service fits within its mandate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1718              You will see, when you look at this letter, that applying these tools to the universe of Canadian programming that would be suitable for this service‑‑ there is not a great deal.  There is enough to get it going, but when you look at the analysis in light of the programs that were selected, I think you can see where we are going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1719              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1720              Will you accept as a condition of licence the application of this tool, starting in Year 1?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1721              MR. de SILVA:  I take it, Madam Chair, that you are referring to the two out of four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1722              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1723              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1724              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will accept it as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1725              MR. de SILVA:  Absolutely.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1726              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Always look to the lawyer before you answer the "condition of licence" questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1727              MR. de SILVA:  Always look to the lawyer.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1728              MR. de SILVA:  I thought I had that one down, but obviously not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1729              MR. FORTUNE:  I would just clarify that the commitment is for original productions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1730              MR. de SILVA:  Oh, yes.  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1731              I wouldn't dream of answering that question‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1732              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the use of the diversity content tool would be to assess original Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1733              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1734              I think that Pat explained clearly why that may be problematic with acquired programming, but for original programming‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1735              That is the very core of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1736              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Both produced in‑house and acquired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1737              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1738              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1739              In terms of the details of your programming plans, you would commit to broadcast two hours of Canadian drama between 7:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., Monday to Friday, on average, each week, starting in Year 5, and three hours between 7:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. by the seventh year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1740              Is that two hours each night, Monday to Friday, or is it two hours per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1741              MR. de SILVA:  Each night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1742              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Each night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1743              Does this include repeats?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1744              MR. de SILVA:  I think, in the overall counting of the hours, it would include repeats, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1745              Unless, of course, you would want to give us a whole lot more money to produce original programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1746              THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you give us a whole lot more hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1747              MR. de SILVA:  We can talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1748              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are not bartering here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1749              MR. de SILVA:  Not yet.  Okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1750              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you accept as a condition of licence that you will broadcast two hours of Canadian drama each night, Monday to Friday, beginning in Year 5?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1751              MR. de SILVA:  In Year 5, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1752              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of Years 1 to 4, in response to deficiencies, you said that the number of original Canadian content to be produced will rise from 63.5 hours in the first year to 106 in the fourth year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1753              You also provided us with a chart, and I see "Original in‑house hours, 23; and Canadian‑acquired, 40.5."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1754              So, in view of the fact that you said that original Canadian content will rise from 63.5, do I take that 40.5 Canadian‑acquired hours to be all original?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1755              MR. de SILVA:  I would ask Amos to respond to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1756              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  I am trying to understand the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1757              Is it the relation between the original and acquired?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1758              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, because you made the statement that the original Canadian content to be produced will rise from 63.5 hours in the first year‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1759              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1760              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ to 106 in the fourth year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1761              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1762              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You then provided us with numbers between original in‑house and Canadian‑acquired, to come to the total of 63.5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1763              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Original in‑house.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1764              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You had 23 original in‑house hours‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1765              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1766              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and 40.5 of Canadian‑acquired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1767              Does that mean that the 40.5 is all original Canadian‑acquired programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1768              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1769              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you will not be acquiring any existing Canadian programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1770              Because I saw "Moccasin Flats" on your video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1771              MR. de SILVA:  Is the question:  Will we not be acquiring any Canadian previously‑made programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1772              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1773              MR. de SILVA:  I think the plan is to acquire‑‑ I think the number of hours‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1774              Jim is going to step in.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1775              Go ahead, Jim.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1776              MR. BYRD:  Madam Chair, if I could do it on a dollars' basis, what we have said is, in Year 1, in terms of original Canadian programming from the independent sector, we would spend $9.6 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1777              In terms of original Canadian programming in‑house, we would spend $3.5 million, approximately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1778              And in terms of Canadian‑acquired, we would spend a further $3 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1779              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I appreciate that, but what I am looking for is the number of hours of never‑before‑seen Canadian programming that will appear on Canada One, which goes, of course, to the issue of diversity of programming on television and how much more diversity of programming you will be bringing to the screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1780              MR. de SILVA:  I want to clarify that a number of those hours are our in‑house produced programming‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1781              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's the 23 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1782              MR. de SILVA:  The 23 hours, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1783              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So of the 40.5 hours, how many of those will be brand new hours to the Canadian broadcasting system?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1784              MR. de SILVA:  All of those will be original hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1785              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But that includes "Moccasin Flats".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1786              MR. de SILVA:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1787              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That doesn't include "Moccasin Flats".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1788              MR. de SILVA:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1789              "Moccasin Flats"‑‑ and there will be other Canadian‑acquired programming that would have been seen previously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1790              Joel can clarify some of this.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1791              MR. de SILVA:  Madam Chair, we are going to walk through the original hours, to make it very, very clear what they are, year‑by‑year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1792              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1793              MR. FORTUNE:  Original hours, totally, are the 63.5 in Year 1, the 79.5 in Year 2, 95 in Year 3, and 106 in Year 4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1794              Then, we wanted to look at the acquired hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1795              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1796              MR. FORTUNE:  Acquired Canadian.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1797              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1798              MR. FORTUNE:  Perhaps I could pass that onto Pat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1799              MS SCARLETT:  The acquired Canadian content will‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1800              Your question, I think, refers to never‑before‑seen Canadian content programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1801              Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1802              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, that is the definition of "original".

LISTNUM 1 \l 1803              MS SCARLETT:  Some of those programs‑‑ in fact, we are in preliminary discussions with independent companies about the possibility of them providing that content for us right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1804              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, the number of hours that have been seen in the system‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1805              MS SCARLETT:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1806              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ what will that yearly total be on this service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1807              In other words, how many hours of programs like "Moccasin Flats" or "Josie H" will you be acquiring for broadcast on this service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1808              MR. de SILVA:  I see where the issue is, Madam Commissioner.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1809              We have not broken down section (d), which is Canadian‑acquired content, in terms of number of hours.  We have a universal figure, an amount of $3 million for that, and that, of course, will depend on many of the deals we can make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1810              As you know, the volume of what can be acquired depends on the age of the program and what output deals we can make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1811              So the hours may fluctuate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1812              That is why we chose an amount of $3 million, as opposed to breaking it down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1813              But if you want us to come to an approximate number of hours, bearing all of those variables in mind, I am sure we could file that for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1814              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Yes, if we are not talking repeats, we can look at the grid, in terms of the Canadian‑acquired breakdown in hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1815              What do we have here‑‑ 49.5 Canadian‑acquired overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1816              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That includes repeats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1817              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1818              MS SCARLETT:  Yes, it does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1819              MR. de SILVA:  Yes, for sure.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1820              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there a different repeat factor between your acquired programming and the original programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1821              MR. de SILVA:  That would vary, according to how we schedule that, depending on seasonal fluctuations for repeats.  Obviously there would be less in our prime winter months.  February‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1822              My recollection of the programming schedules, when I did that at Vision TV, was that, obviously, the time of year makes a big difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1823              So that number would fluctuate in terms of repeats, but our overall plan would be to have as few repeats as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1824              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Since you do claim that there is this presence gap, that it still does exist, and that visible minorities are virtually invisible, what are your sources for acquiring Canadian programming that will meet the mandate, as you have stated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1825              MR. de SILVA:  That would be our acquisitions person, and I will hand it over, happily, to Patricia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1826              MS SCARLETT:  We have, in fact, developed a roster of independent production companies that are owned by people of diversity.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1827              For example, there is Hungry Eyes Production, and there is Shirley Cheechoo's company, Spoken Song.  We have other companies, such as DHX, which is also producing.  Again, they are focused on family and children's programming, but certainly will have some content that would work in our schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1828              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1829              You say that you will solicit productions from independent producers that have evidence of a diverse ownership structure, wherein at least 30 percent of the production company is owned by members of visible minorities or Aboriginals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1830              How do you define "ownership"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1831              Is it share structure, voting interests, control?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1832              How do you define that 30 percent ownership in a production company?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1833              On what basis do you determine that they have an ownership interest, in other words?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1834              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  That would be share structure, and, typically, we are thinking a single‑purpose company, set up for the purpose of a production, not so much that it's the parent company.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1835              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you accept as a condition of licence that 75 percent of all original Canadian programming will originate from independent sources not affiliated with Diversity Television Incorporated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1836              MR. de SILVA:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1837              MS SCARLETT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1838              THE CHAIRPERSON:  My last set of questions will have to do with your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1839              You are proposing mandatory carriage on digital basic for a wholesale fee of 50 percent.  What factors did you take into consideration to arrive at that wholesale fee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1840              MR. de SILVA:  Thank you, Madam Commissioner.  That was one question that we did anticipate and rehearse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1841              There are a number of factors, including my cable bill, I should say, which is now hovering around $75.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1842              I should say that an earlier reference to the income of Commissioner French and his relative ability to pay high cable bills notwithstanding, I think that mine may not be in that category by any means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1843              But, in terms of evaluating the affordability, I suppose, and how we arrived at the 50‑cent figure‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1844              First of all, we moved from the process of "What do we need?"  What do we need to make the kind of programming we are talking about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1845              How do we deal with the presence gap, which we have talked about, and how do we produce high‑quality programming?  What will it cost to do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1846              As producers of that kind of programming, we know, obviously, $1 million‑plus for a one‑hour show; $400,000 for a half‑hour show.  Those numbers keep going up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1847              Mind you, some of them are lower, possibly, by using new technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1848              In all of our focus groups that we did‑‑ and Kaan can speak to this‑‑ across the country, in every major city, they told us that the key to our service was quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1849              So we started off on that basis:  What do we need in order to provide the kind of financing required for that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1850              I will pass this to Kaan, who will talk about the actual 50‑cent question which you raised.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1851              MR. YIGIT:  I will address the first part of your question, which is, when you actually talk to people about this kind of channel, initially there is some hesitation in responding:  What is it going to be?  How is it going to be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1852              There is generally an assumption that if you are going to do Canadian programming of any kind‑‑ and this is an unfortunate public opinion‑‑ the general perception is that Canadian is equal to poor production values and/or low budgets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1853              What happens when you connect that to diversity is, the response you get is:  If it is going to be parity production values with the kinds of things that I watch, then that's great.  If it is going to be low‑budget, then I am not going to watch it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1854              That is, I think, what Paul was talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1855              The second part of it is the 50‑cent piece.  We haven't really looked at a price test of any kind, because that is not how people buy cable or services along these lines.  But just looking at where we are with digital cable and DTH, looking at average bills of $60 or $65 a month, half of the population of that DTH/digital cable universe takes premium services and that kind of thing, so 50 cents works out to less than 1 percent of the total cable bill.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1856              The general consumer expectation is somewhere in the neighbourhood of a 2 to 4 percent increase in‑‑ not just cable, in every category that we look at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1857              We all grumble, but life goes on, and we don't drop services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1858              That is from the perspective of affordability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1859              The second point is, the digital cable customer, the DTH customer, isn't exactly‑‑ they are not choosing between food and television.  It is a higher than average income customer.  Is it affordable at the rates that Paul suggested?  More than likely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1860              Would the cable customer want their bills to go up $3 or $4 a month?  Of course not, but if it is kept, as I said, in the low single digits, on an annual basis, you are not going to see a lot of impact whatsoever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1861              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But in all of the research that you submitted with this application, you did not specifically ask the question as to whether or not the people that you were surveying would be willing to pay 50 cents a month for this service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1862              MR. YIGIT:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1863              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to know, specifically, why you excluded that question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1864              MR. YIGIT:  We haven't asked that question for the six or seven years that I have been doing work in this domain, simply because I don't believe it is meaningful.  People don't buy a channel for 50 cents.  They don't really quite have the choice in the way that we kind of understand the sales process to work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1865              The second part is, there are proxies in our research for a universal estimation.  If you were to go into that idyllic space of "pick and pay", how many people would pay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1866              If we go to that space, though, we probably should ask the question:  How many people would pay for any of the channels out there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1867              Let me give you an example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1868              In the late nighties, early 2000s, I did a "pick and pay" type of simulation.  I included 69 channels in the bundle that I tested.  Twelve channels received 50 percent or more of the votes.  Seven of those 12 were American services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1869              Most of the channels that you see on your dial today, in basic or in various places, would not really pass the 20 or 30 percent threshold.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1870              The point I am making is, it comforts us when we ask the question, because we know how many people will pay this money, but the reality of it is that, in that sort of very, very liberal universe, most of the channels would not pass the threshold of consumer demand from a majority standpoint.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1871              Nielsen just released statistics, which were in the New York Times on Monday, and I think it would be instructive if I could take the time to work through that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1872              There are over 100 channels available to the typical digital cable/DTH customer.  There are 15 favourites.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1873              Everybody's favourites are different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1874              Those are the general parameters of the debate for me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1875              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Perhaps I could take it from another angle, as well, in what is driving the 50 cents, because this is the issue of diversity and representation in an equitable way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1876              We looked at other models in the 30‑cent and 40‑cent range, and it wouldn't make a significant impact on the system, in terms of balancing the inequity that is there.  It would take a huge amount of time to get to that balance of representation at the production levels.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1877              Then, to go on the higher side, above 50 cents, there would be the question of capacity.  That was proved out through the Nordicity study, in terms of producers, directors, writers and actors who are diverse, who can come to the table and produce the content for this network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1878              So it was a balancing act, and it settled at 50 cents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1879              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is 50 cents the minimum that you would have to charge as a wholesale fee in order to make this service viable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1880              Have you done any modelling to see, if that wholesale fee was lower, what effect that would have on your programming plans?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1881              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.  We have done various looks at it, and we have looked at what that impact would have on our ability to deliver the kind of programming and the quality and the volume that we have proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1882              I should also say that Wayne Albo, and, in fact, Jim, can also add to that, in terms of the modelling that was done on a different fee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1883              MR. BYRD:  I would start quickly, Commissioner, and say that we did start with what the impact would be on the priorities of this channel, in terms of the programming we would deliver, and then we moved back from there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1884              Wayne, you could probably talk to the detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1885              MR. ALBO:  We ran the model at 40 cents, pushed through the numbers, and basically what happened was, obviously, our revenue would go down $55 million, but the way our structure works, for us to make a profit, our programming expenses expended would have to go down by about $60 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1886              Our revenue would go down $55 million, but what we would be producing and spending would have to go down more, because the fixed costs remain fairly constant, and we are not earning the margin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1887              Really, in our view, because of the nature of the reinvestment of 65 cents on the dollar, the reduction from 50 to 40 would take out such a huge amount of the money spent on programming that it would sort of gut the programs we are looking to produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1888              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What year would you be profitable in that modelling scenario?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1889              MR. ALBO:  We would be profitable in Year 3, and the profits that we looked at were about exactly the same as what we had presented at 50 cents, except there is a delay in profitability.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1890              But the level of profitability, overall, would be the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1891              What we are trying to do is say:  This is the profit.  What has to give for us to remain‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1892              What really comes out of the system is programming expenses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1893              MR. de SILVA:  I should add, Madam Commissioner, that we also did a model at $1, but we rejected that pretty quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1894              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You made too much money?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1895              MR. de SILVA:  No, it was‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1896              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm kidding.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1897              MR. de SILVA:  We will leave it at that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1898              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your financial projections, your advertising revenues make up only 2 percent, increasing to 7 percent of your total revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1899              Quite simply, why so low?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1900              MR. BYRD:  Madam Chair, I think it is fair to say that some would consider our ad sales revenue a conservative estimate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1901              We did, first and foremost, want to be realistic about what we could present to the Commission, in terms of the programming we could deliver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1902              That was one factor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1903              The other factor is‑‑ and I will ask Wayne to talk to some of the specifics‑‑ we are entering the broadcast milieu with a new channel, in a fragmented universe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1904              We also had to factor in how quickly we thought our own marketing plan for the channel could roll out and have an impact, so that viewers could come to us, and so that advertisers could come to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1905              So that was factored into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1906              I also would like to point out to the Commission that what we are trying to do with this channel is position it for the long term.  We are not even looking at this seven‑year licence period, we are looking far beyond that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1907              What we are trying to do is build the channel, and build it for future growth.  In the mix of what we have presented to the Commission, you know that there is no return on investment over the early years of this channel.  That is not our intent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1908              You know that we have also committed that 65 percent of our revenues from prior years will get rolled back into programming, and our intent is to continue doing that through this initial licence period, to build the channel, so that it is ready for the second licence period, and substantial growth, we hope.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1909              I would ask Wayne to talk you through the specifics of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1910              MR. ALBO:  How we derived the revenue‑‑ and, you are right, it probably is conservative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1911              We looked at the ad revenue per subscriber of a number of Category 1 digital services.  The average was approximately 30 cents per subscriber for 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1912              Because Canada One is a startup, we took 50 percent of that number, on a per subscriber basis‑‑ i.e., we have a lot more subscribers, so that increases the dollar amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1913              And the 15 cents, again, of the number we looked at, was very consistent with their startup types of revenues per subscriber.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1914              We then grew the revenue at 20 percent a year, and I think, at this point, the numbers are slightly conservative, but, again, given our model, the sensitivity isn't as great as one would expect, because 65 cents of all of the increases go back into programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1915              What we were trying to prove out is, at these levels, through conservative revenue projections, can we deliver the programming that is required to make this viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1916              We didn't believe that it was in our best interest to overestimate both subscribers and/or revenue and then say:  Here is what we need to deliver the programming we need to make this a success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1917              So I think that, yes, we probably were conservative throughout those numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1918              THE CHAIRPERSON:  My issue here, of course, is that this creates an absolute dependence on mandatory carriage, on subscriber revenue therefore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1919              You are presenting us with an idea that is going to deliver high‑quality, compelling programming, which will speak to all Canadians, based on what you have said in your application, and here this morning, which presumably will draw an audience, which presumably will result in advertising revenues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1920              I just want to be absolutely sure that we have here, before us, a business plan that has taken all of those things into consideration, and its ability to attract advertisers as well as viewers, and perhaps decrease the dependency, therefore, on a high subscriber fee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1921              MR. de SILVA:  Madam Chair, those are all, obviously, excellent points about the advertising revenue and the linkage, I guess I am understanding, with audience‑‑ a growing audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1922              I would like to actually say that, in terms of how we see this growing, obviously there will be a process of making our population‑‑ our viewers aware, slowly, on that basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1923              As well, the existing model for generating advertising revenue, as we know, is based on the popularity of American programming.  We are not doing that in prime.  We have made the decision to start with Canadian programming, programming that has not a built‑in audience, shall we say, for popular American programming.  So it will take some time to make the service‑‑ one, to make people aware of it, and for that to build.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1924              We either had to rely on American programming and high advertising for our sources‑‑ not viable in this instance‑‑ or go with a situation where we were dependent on subscriber fees for providing the amount of financing we need to produce high‑quality programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1925              MR. BYRD:  Madam Chair, if I could add, I think we all appreciate the concern about this.  I just want to reassure you that we have said that the moneys will not go to the profit line.  There will not be a return to investors in the early years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1926              If we exceed those revenue targets, and we hope we do, our priorities would be to institute a second feed of the service, as soon as we possibly could, to better impact the whole area that Jennifer was talking about‑‑ our web, our new media‑‑ digital media technologies‑‑ and, as well, move up the timing of our Canadian programming, and do more of it sooner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1927              MR. de SILVA:  I would add that we really would like to add a second feed, because our population‑‑ our audience and our constituency in Vancouver, we believe, deserves that, and we would like to institute that as soon as we can, if there were the revenues to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1928              I believe that Wayne wanted to add a comment to that, vis‑à‑vis the financials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1929              MR. ALBO:  We also ran a model on what we believe to be an overly optimistic case, where we doubled the ad revenue over the period.  So instead of $13.5 million, it ended up to be, roughly, $27 million.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1930              The amount that it made a difference, for reinvestment, on average, for the seven years, was about $450,000 per year, for each of the seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1931              Relative to our production spending and all of our other spending, we didn't think it was all that material, given how we reinvest the money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1932              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1933              On to subscriber revenues.  You have a fairly aggressive growth projection, in terms of digital distribution, which goes up to 14 percent in Year 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1934              What are your plans, should the take‑up rate of digital distribution not increase at the rate you have projected?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1935              MR. de SILVA:  I think we have made provision for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1936              We will start with Kaan, and then we will move to Wayne, in terms of our financials.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1937              MR. de SILVA:  We will go directly to Wayne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1938              MR. ALBO:  Would you repeat the question, please?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1939              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What if the digital distribution that you have forecast in your application, starting with Year 2 at 14 percent, does not increase at that level?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1940              What are your plans in order to ensure that this service remains viable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1941              MR. ALBO:  I think what we would have to do, at that point‑‑ again, we are talking about timing, as opposed to the ultimate result.  Our forecast, generally, is built around a model where we are going to have to tweak the expenditures, which would be mainly programming.  We may have to finance some programming initially with a bank instead of funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1942              Our belief is‑‑ and you are 100 percent right, nobody can predict the actual penetration.  What we have done is‑‑ the first couple of years is a little more aggressive.  The real issue is managing programming dollars, to ensure that we can deliver the programs in the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1943              Because if we are right, the digital penetration, ultimately, during that period‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1944              Everybody thinks that they know where the end is, it's just when it happens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1945              So we believe it is timing, and we can adjust through bank financing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1946              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you will continue to accept, as a condition of licence, that 65 percent of your gross revenues will be spent on Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1947              And everybody looks to Joel.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1948              MR. de SILVA:  That's why we have lawyers.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1949              MR. de SILVA:  Could you give us a minute, Madam Chair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1950              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1951              MR. de SILVA:  The short answer is yes, but we would like to roll out the figures on how we have come to that, so I will pass it to Jim to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1952              MR. BYRD:  The reason we can say yes, Madam Chair, is because the financials that we submitted to you, which we believe are full and thorough, were done on a cash basis, they were not done on an amortized basis.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1953              In effect, though, in practice, what we think will happen with the channel, is that we will start on a cash basis, simply because we are new, but we will move to an amortized basis, and that will help the issue that you just talked about, and I will let Wayne explain the details of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1954              MR. ALBO:  The commitment of spending, on a cash basis, 65 percent of the year's revenue, we can agree to from Day 1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1955              But if we go to a full allocation basis, obviously we have nothing to amortize in the first year or the second year, so we can't hit the commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1956              Given the fact that we are a startup, we need until at least Year 4 to hit the commitment of the 65 percent, if you want it on an accrual amortized basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1957              If you accept‑‑ and I do sit on the Accounting Standards Board‑‑ if you accept cash accounting, which, in this case, I think, is probably more representative of the nature of this business, because our revenue and our costs are matched, given the formula‑‑ if that was the method that was acceptable here, 65 cents would work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1958              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1959              MR. de SILVA:  If I may, I would also add, Madam Commissioner, that the old saying of having to cut your coat according to your cloth might apply here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1960              THE CHAIRPERSON:  My dad was a tailor, Mr. de Silva.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1961              MR. de SILVA:  Oh!  I did not know that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1962              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I did see your response to deficiencies with regards to the model and what that would look like, should the Commission not grant you mandatory carriage, but does that mean that you would not accept the licence, if we did not grant you mandatory carriage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1963              If we licensed you as either a Category 1 or a Category 2 service, would you not accept the licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1964              MR. de SILVA:  I think, Madam Commissioner, we would have to look at what could we deliver for that.  How could we meet the core mandate of our service?  Could we actually provide high‑quality, Canadian‑made drama that reaches out to the underserved marginalized communities with that kind of financial model?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1965              If there is anyone else who wants to jump in, obviously, they can do so, but the core of our service is to produce drama.  We know what it costs.  We know how the existing models in the television landscape in Canada work.  It is either directly, from the CBC, an allocation from the government to produce drama, or it is running American programming in prime time, which then pays for the Canadian portion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1966              I offer that as a response in terms of how we would have to look at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1967              MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Madam Commissioner, if I may add, Paul and I actually even had some brief discussion with a BDU satellite provider around that issue.  He suggested that we get a regular licence, so to speak, and that he would negotiate and this would all work out quite well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1968              But somehow I feel that that wouldn't happen in terms of what we need to accomplish here, what we are looking to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1969              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you accept a licence if the CRTC decided that only Class 1 BDUs should be required to carry such a service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1970              MR. de SILVA:  I think the same principle would apply.  We would have to look at what that would mean.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1971              Now knowing that your father was a tailor, Madam Commissioner, we know that there are economies that can be made in terms of both‑‑ it is sometimes the choice of an Armani suit and something that may be available at Tip Top Tailors‑‑ not to use brand names‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1972              MR. de SILVA:  ‑‑ but I did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1973              I will pass this over to Joel, to talk about what the specific implications might be.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1974              MR. de SILVA:  We are going to huddle for a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1975              THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1976              MR. de SILVA:  I am beginning to feel a bit like Howie Mandel on "Deal or No Deal".

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1977              MR. de SILVA:  We don't have the advantage of a Rogers phone, either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1978              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry, could you please repeat your answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1979              MR. de SILVA:  I won't repeat the Rogers phone joke on Howie Mandel's show "Deal or No Deal".  We don't have the advantage of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1980              The answer is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1981              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You would accept a licence‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1982              MR. de SILVA:  On Class 1, because I understand that it is 80 percent of the BDU universe, so the numbers‑‑ again, we are back to cutting the cloth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1983              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. de Silva, and your team, thank you very much.  Those are my questions, but my colleagues will have more for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1984              I will start with Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1985              COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1986              My questions will follow up on the financial aspects of your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1987              I note, in the financial statement that you filed, based on 50 cents and mandatory carriage, that you have positive PBITs right from Year 1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1988              It seems to me that you have a rather limited risk in launching the service, because the investment will be paid back quite rapidly, I noticed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1989              At least, that is what your model seems to show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1990              Would you agree with me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1991              MR. de SILVA:  Yes.  We can elaborate on that, though.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1992              The positive EBIT, obviously, is based on the fact that we have a revenue flow starting from Year 1 from our subscriber revenue, but I would ask our financial man to elaborate on that, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1993              COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously, you spend less than what you earn, so that will be the answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1994              MR. ALBO:  The answer is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1995              In the first year of launch, we lose $3.5 million on the startup, as we put forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1996              COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1997              MR. ALBO:  We have in Year 1 a positive EBITDA, but we have a negative $2 million cash flow, because we have to fund receivables/payables.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1998              Again, that also assumes no fluctuation in the revenues, as pointed out by the Commissioner, or adjustments.  Over a long period of time, basically, offering virtually a flat to marginal profitability, any fluctuation has potential huge swings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1999              So, yes, we are budgeting a slight profit, but if there is much movement in revenue, there would be a big swing, and we do have to fund up to $6 million or $7 million of debt, in essence, of payables through our ramp‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11000             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Also, would those be the reasons why, by Year 3, your PBIT‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11001             Throughout your seven‑year period, your EBIT or PBIT‑‑ whatever way you want to‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11002             MR. ALBO:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11003             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  ‑‑ is always positive, but in single digits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11004             I note that it starts in Year 1 at 3.9.  In Year 2 it goes down to 3.2.  In Year 3 it goes down to 1.9.  In Year 4 it goes up to 3.2.  In Year 5 it goes down to 1.4.  In Year 6 it goes up to 3.3.  And in Year 7 it goes up to 5.8 percent of PBIT.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11005             MR. ALBO:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11006             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Could you explain to me why you have those types of variations going up and down?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11007             Is it the financing of the current accounts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11008             MR. ALBO:  No, it's primarily‑‑ if you trace the percentage of money we are spending on programming, we are spending more than the 65 percent, in general, year‑by‑year, and the fluctuation is coming out of our spending slightly more in certain years to build audience and programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11009             So it is really driven by putting the money back into the system through programming, as opposed to the funding of other issues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11010             The whole concept is driven through programming, and that is where the incremental dollars are being spent, because we are spending more than 65 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11011             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  A question that has not been debated here is more technical than financial, and obviously it has a cost.  Will you be launching your service in the HD format or on standard digital?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11012             MR. de SILVA:  We will be launching on standard digital.  We certainly will be keeping a close watch on what happens in the HD world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11013             The quick answer is, we will be launching on standard digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11014             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You said that 65 percent of your programming will be Canadian.  How much of it will be produced by independent producers, rather than the core‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11015             I understand the core programming, because it is programming that is available on the shelf from distributors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11016             New drama, how much of it will be‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11017             You talk about original drama.  How much of it will be produced by independent producers?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11018             MR. de SILVA:  The vast majority will be produced by independent producers.  We will adhere to the 25 percent related company rules, in terms of independent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11019             And all other original drama will be produced by independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11020             MR. BYRD:  In fact, Mr. Commissioner, all except 39 hours will be produced outside our house.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11021             MR. de SILVA:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11022             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11023             MR. de SILVA:  And those 39 hours are the shows‑‑ the one show that, in fact, will feed into drama programming for promotion, background material, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11024             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  How dependent will you be on access to the Canadian Television Fund for those drama hours‑‑ new original drama hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11025             MR. de SILVA:  Amos, I see you clicking the microphone button.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11026             The answer is, it will depend on our negotiations with the Canadian Television Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11027             As you know, the standard arrangement is, based on the previous year of a complicated actuarial thing‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11028             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Formula.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11029             MR. de SILVA:  The formula for marketing, licence fees, reach of audience, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11030             I will let Amos talk about how we see our relationship with the CTF.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11031             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Mr. Commissioner, I don't have much to add, other than, yes, we did have some discussions with the CTF about how one would figure out what amount of the CTF envelope a network like this would receive, and based on those discussions, we looked at a few of the channels out there and came up with a number, but in the first year there is no access to or use of the CTF.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11032             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Will it be only in the first year, or will it be in the first, say, two to five years before you could access any envelope from the CTF?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11033             How long‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11034             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Depending on the timing‑‑ I believe that their cut‑off is January of the previous year, looking at the programming schedule‑‑ what went out over the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11035             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The unavailability of an envelope for your service for the first, and maybe even the second year, how will that impact your business plan?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11036             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  As I said, in the first year it is not included, and in the second year‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11037             There is no envelope at all in Year 1.  In Year 2 there is an envelope of $5 million that is estimated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11038             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So you are basing your service on a $5 million envelope for Year 2 for your service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11039             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  Yes.  Climbing to 8.8 in Year 3, and 10 in Year 4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11040             MR. BYRD:  Commissioner, if I could put it a different way, that is where we have parked the other sources of financing that we will need to complete these productions, but we are putting on the table, in any given year, a significant amount of money to trigger production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11041             We hope it will come from the CTF, but if that is not possible, I think that the moneys we have on the table will intrigue producers to find ways to finalize the last piece of that financing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11042             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But that will mean that your licence fee will be much higher than it would have been if you had access to the CTF.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11043             MR. BYRD:  That could be, or it could be that we find other alternative sources.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11044             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And there are, obviously, other sources than the CTF, but the CTF seems to be the biggest one for the time being.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11045             You have shown us the "North South" program, and you said that it was a pilot.  Was that pilot financed through the support of any fund, or was it financed only through DHX Media?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11046             MR. de SILVA:  Floyd, do you want to speak to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11047             MR. KANE:  Certainly, Mr. Commissioner.  "North South" was financed by a licence fee from the CBC and provincial tax credits and federal tax credits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11048             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So "North South", which we have seen here, is not necessarily‑‑ is a program that may happen to be on Canada One TV one day, but it will be coming through acquisition rather than through original drama.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11049             Will the CBC‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11050             MR. KANE:  I believe that what you have seen was a pilot that we produced for the CBC, and the CBC has passed on that pilot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11051             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.  But, obviously, Canada One would be interested in pursuing‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11052             MR. KANE:  That's correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11053             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  In your oral presentation, Mr. de Silva, you said that you were looking at a new media plan‑‑ and I think it was Ms Ouano who addressed the issue of new media‑‑ and you said that you were expecting that your programming would have extended life through various technological platforms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11054             Obviously, this is something that every broadcaster dreams of, but it has not yet happened, particularly with independent production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11055             What leads you to believe that you will be able to do what CTV or even CBC has not yet been able to do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11056             MS OUANO:  It is something that is in discussion.  I know that Pat is looking at getting digital rights for some of the content that is acquired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11057             As far as original production, we will also be looking at this, but considering recent deals that have been made by ACTRA and the difficulty to get these rights, it will be taken under consideration.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11058             We are also expecting to have user‑generated content that we may commission, which we might put a call out for, as well as original content that is produced for "On The Scene", which is the flagship program that we can put online, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11059             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11060             Madam Chair, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11061             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11062             Vice‑Chair French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11063             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I would like to give you an opportunity to articulate a little more completely your basic claim on our attention and indulgence and support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11064             You said a number of things that have helped me or have indicated to me sort of a beginning of an understanding of what you are trying to do.  You said in the first instance that if people from diverse ethnic origins didn't see themselves on the screen, they "didn't exist".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11065             Maybe it's a rhetorical flourish, in which case, I guess, we can discount it, or it's a claim of some more serious nature, maybe an existential one that you can't really discuss, you just have to believe it or not believe it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11066             I leave it to you if you want to comment on that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11067             The next claim you made was that you were going to solve a kind of social problem, which is that second generation Canadians from diverse ethnic origins are, apparently, disassociated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11068             I guess I would take that to mean alienated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11069             I would like to understand what you think your programming is going to do for that problem, if that is part of the basic argument.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11070             Beyond that‑‑ and I guess that here I am getting to the core‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11071             And staff is getting very nervous, because whenever I address these problems they get a lot of phone calls.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11072             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Let me say for the people listening on the web that this is strictly me, the staff didn't pose any of these questions.  I am just being my usual eccentric self.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11073             It seems to me that the constituency for which you are speaking, which, to me, is an attractive constituency‑‑ a kaleidoscope of the world that now has joined us in Canada and is part of our country, and I think that is fantastic.  When I was in politics I defended that open‑door cultural and civic sense of what we are all about.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11074             But it does seem to me that, as a commercial enterprise, as a programming enterprise, you are basically addressing, or claiming to speak for, or claiming to meet the needs of, or claiming to represent a group of people whose only characteristic is that they are not demographically northern European.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11075             My puzzle to you‑‑ my question to you is, why does that constitute a sufficiently coherent programming proposition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11076             What does it mean for a Filipino architect who lives in Vancouver to see a third generation Halifax Black man as a detective in a drama on your channel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11077             What does it mean?  What is it for?  What is it about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11078             I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just saying that it puzzles me.  I don't get it completely, and I would like to offer you the opportunity to try to give me a little more of what I would take to be a little less rhetorical and a little more rigorous justification for what is at the core of the programming proposition and why should we indulge it in the way you have asked us to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11079             "Indulge" may be an unfair word.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11080             Why should we support it in the way you have asked us to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11081             MR. de SILVA:  Commissioner French, you have asked a lot of questions, and the moment you mention the word "existential", it makes us think about, in a sense, the very core of our application here.  What is it that has really brought Amos and Alfons and myself, and the partners that we have brought together over these past five years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11082             Your question strikes to the very core of why we want to do this service; why, as producers, we want to do this service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11083             I will ask Pat, also, to contribute to this question, because it is a question that all of us who are involved in Canada One, and the development of it, feel very passionately about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11084             The issue of alienation‑‑ I was trying to write some of the key words that you mentioned, and I think that was probably at the core of:  Why would young people, why would anybody who is, as you put it, non‑European feel...


LISTNUM 1 \l 11085             I think that one of the key things is the question of the role of television in our society.  Why is television important?  Why do people need and want to see themselves reflected?  And what is the danger, what is the fallout, or what happens when you don't see yourself represented?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11086             One of the things that comes to mind is a study that was recently released‑‑ and I think we have all seen it‑‑ by Professor Jeffrey Reitz, which talked about the disenfranchisement, the alienation, particularly of second generation immigration children, who don't feel a part of Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11087             The statistical‑‑ taking it from the anecdotal and the existential feeling, there is now hard‑core statistical evidence to show that there is a growing disenfranchisement, a growing alienation of second generation citizens of Canada to our society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11088             How important is that?  What does that mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11089             If young people growing up don't see their interests, people who look like them reflected in the most important communications medium we have, what does that do to your image?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11090             First of all, what does it do to your self‑image?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11091             I am speaking here as a parent to some degree.  I have two daughters who are visible minorities, obviously, and I see what they see on television, sometimes through their eyes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11092             And here we are getting into the more existential‑‑ this thing about alienation.  If you don't see yourself, you don't exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11093             Serena Voskrishna said that, I think, very articulately right off the top.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11094             Very quickly, if I may, because you raised this important question; when I first came to this country with my parents in the early sixties, the visible minority population was very small, and there were five television channels, if I recall.  There were three American and two Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11095             When we turned on our first television set that we bought, most of the programming was the kind that you could expect in the sixties‑‑ "The Tommy Hunter Show", "Juliet", "Wayne and Shuster", the "Beachcombers", and the "King of Kensington".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11096             While I didn't see a lot of people like myself on those shows, what I did get was a sense of Canada.  What I did get was a sense of this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11097             Flash forward to today, when a young person arrives at Pearson Airport.  They are immediately driven to Mississauga or Markham, or wherever.  They may stop at the Quality Sweet Shop and pick up a Bollywood movie, and then they go to their uncle's place and there is Zee TV from India.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11098             The disassociation that is taking place, in terms of how people learn about Canada and become Canadians, is one issue, and the second issue is about seeing yourself as being a part of this country.  That is why we believe it is an urgent issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11099             There is one particular program, I think, which might address that, which is in our schedule, and I would ask Patricia to elaborate on that point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11100             Patricia, the "Fat Albert" case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11101             MS SCARLETT:  "Fat Albert" was an American program that was produced in the seventies, and it featured a cast of animated characters who were all African‑Americans.  It was one of the first times on television that there was a series of this kind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11102             The thing that I find fascinating about it is that "Fat Albert", in fact, has aired in over 100 countries worldwide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11103             I think what children identified with was not‑‑ they did not look at the skin colour, it was the experiences of these characters that they could relate to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11104             However, many of those kids in other countries around the world also connected with them, because here was somebody that looked like them, or close to the way they looked.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11105             The other thing in addressing Commissioner French's questions, or comments, or observations, is that Canada One is not only proposing to put people of diversity on‑screen, but behind the scenes as well, both in management and executive‑level positions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11106             I think this cannot be underestimated and undervalued.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11107             I have worked in television, primarily in sales and distribution, for over 17 years.  For much of my career I have been the only person of diversity represented at all of the major international markets worldwide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11108             When you consider that the majority of television stations are based in Toronto, and that Toronto is said to be the most diverse and multicultural city in the world, how is that possible?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11109             With a service like Canada One, it is possible, I think, in a relatively short period of time, to change that whole picture in such a way that, in fact, there will be more representation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11110             MR. de SILVA:  We get fairly emotional about these things.  We could talk about the left brain and the right brain.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11111             Kaan Yigit has done a tremendous amount of research on this, in terms of the actual demographic impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11112             So after Amos speaks to this, perhaps I could give you the less existential and the more statistical look at how this is impacting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11113             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  I just wanted to share with Commissioner French my feelings about that sense of alienation that can happen when people aren't represented and aren't there, so to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11114             I grew up in Sudbury.  My father landed there from Nigeria, and he was actually the first Black man in Sudbury.  Nobody had seen a Black man in Sudbury.  Apparently they would touch his skin, and at night they believed that he grew a tail, in fact.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11115             MR. AMOS ADETUYI:  That was some time ago, but, again, it still goes to a matter of knowledge.  It is a matter of:  What do you know?  What do you know about another people?  How do you fit in?  Those sorts of things.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11116             Fast forward to today's high schools.  I see my kids in a high school that looks like the U.N., and I think that that's fantastic, in terms of the people‑‑ they are sharing, they are in the community at that level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11117             Again, what is the extent of that?  Does that move into television, into the broadcast world?  Do they see themselves there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11118             The answer is no.  So, how do they feel about that?  Do they feel like the first‑‑ whatever kind of racial group in their community?  They are not seeing themselves around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11119             Then you take it out into the industry itself, following along on what Patricia said.  When you are in a boardroom‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11120             My brother Alfons has been in the business for 20 years, and I have been here for a while, as well as Paul, and when you are in a boardroom and you are the only person of colour in that boardroom, you begin to wonder‑‑ and I am talking about the broadcasting boardrooms‑‑ you begin to wonder:  Do I belong here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11121             The answer, of course, is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11122             Hopefully that will help to answer your question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11123             MR. de SILVA:  You asked specifically about the connection between a Filipino person in Vancouver perhaps seeing a Black person in Halifax on a cop show.  That is a very big question, but I think the short answer, in many ways, is that we all see ourselves as being Canadians, and particularly people of colour.  When they see other people of colour being represented on television, they see a place for themselves in Canadian society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11124             Kaan...

LISTNUM 1 \l 11125             MR. YIGIT:  I am not quite sure if it is the left or the right brain, but let me say a couple of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11126             One, in one of the surveys that we filed, when we asked the question around more representation on Canadian television, in particular in dramatic‑type programming, 84 percent of visible minorities that we interviewed said they would like to see more, and 46 percent strongly agreed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11127             I could stop there and say:  You know what?  We could look at this and say, "Well, that's motherhood.  Who is going to say `I don't want to see myself on television'?"

LISTNUM 1 \l 11128             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  What were the other 16 percent possibly thinking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11129             MR. YIGIT:  Exactly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11130             Since 2003 I have been part of organizing and analyzing some 30 focus groups, across 10 markets, in Canada around this issue.  Twenty of them were undertaken for the task force, and 10 for this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11131             We interviewed probably over 4,000 people in the same period on these issues, in nine languages, so that we could include people who are not typically included in your typical English or French opinion polls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11132             I could categorically tell you that the issue of representation is around validation and self‑esteem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11133             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Do you want to go on, Mr. de Silva?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11134             MR. de SILVA:  Would you like us to go on, Commissioner French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11135             Does that answer come close‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11136             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It is a conversation that we could have at great length, and this isn't the time to have it, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to articulate your point of view.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11137             I think that at the core of what you said is that people of diverse origins who are made to feel, in small ways perhaps, but important ways, that they are not a part of the country, as yet, or that they are not fully a part of the country, will feel more comfortable seeing certain programming, even if the program in question doesn't address their particular racial or ethnic particularity, but it represents a model of a society in which there is an inclusive ethic, in which everyone participates as an equal partner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11138             It doesn't matter that the Filipino architect doesn't see a Filipino on the screen; what matters is that there is a view of Canadian society that is more congenial to his sense of belonging and his participation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11139             I think that is what you said to me, basically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11140             MR. de SILVA:  I couldn't have said it better myself.  Thank you for giving us the opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11141             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11142             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11143             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11144             I want to go to your "Nature of Service", and I don't believe that I heard an answer, Mr. de Silva.  It is "multicultural themes and values directed at an ethnocultural community."  And an ethnocultural community was defined by what?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11145             You referred to an Act.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11146             MR. de SILVA:  In the Employment Equity Act, I believe, is the framework, as well as the Multiculturalism Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11147             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What does the first Act say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11148             MR. de SILVA:  The definition of ethnocultural‑‑ and we have the language in our brief, I believe‑‑ is that any community that is not English or French is defined as ethnocultural.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11149             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  My family lived in Germany.  We were Yunkers.  We went to Scotland.  We joined the Highlanders.  We stole a wife from England and a wife from Scotland.  So I would be ethnoculturally diverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11150             MR. de SILVA:  It sounds like, to me, you would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11151             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  We have felt that way for some time, Barbara.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11152             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Then, Mr. de Silva, you are not answering the question that was put to you by Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11153             Your "Nature of Service" is so wide that you could morph into a CTV.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11154             MR. de SILVA:  I don't think so, Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11155             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Listen.  It says, "multicultural themes and values."  You said that that is really Canadian values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11156             MR. de SILVA:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11157             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Directed at an ethnocultural community.  It could be directed at a sixth generation Canadian, but a Highlander Scot and a Yunker class German.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11158             This "Nature of Service" is so broad that, if you had financial problems, you could turn into a CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11159             Tell me why you couldn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11160             MR. de SILVA:  Because I think that our promise of what we do, in terms of original programming and‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11161             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We can't enforce promises.  You have to live up to your "Nature of Service".  That's what we can enforce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11162             I am asking you‑‑ there is no limit here on what you could do and how you could program, so how can we keep you to your very sincere feelings and beliefs?  How can we keep you to that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11163             What I am going to suggest is that, Mr. Fortune, you can come back to us with an appropriate "Nature of Service" that won't allow this service to morph into a CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11164             MR. de SILVA:  We will just take a minute to‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11165             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, no.  I am saying:  Come back in Phase II or III or IV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11166             MR. de SILVA:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11167             If you would, could you allow us a minute, please, Commissioner?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11168             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are allowed to think, yes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11169             MR. de SILVA:  Thank you for your patience, Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11170             To clearly define our target audience‑‑ and we have talked about the wide interpretation of "ethnocultural"‑‑ we have been very clear in our application and supplementary brief that our primary target audience is visible minority, with the age group we have targeted, 18 to 45, as well as the visible minority and Aboriginal population in that targeted age group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11171             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hear you.  We can only enforce a "Nature of Service".


LISTNUM 1 \l 11172             So, as it stands, I cannot see any way of preventing you, should financial problems happen, from morphing into‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11173             I saw Mr. Brace around here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11174             Not that there is anything wrong with CTV, but‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11175             MR. de SILVA:  They run "Grey's Anatomy", and I am very thankful for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11176             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I want you to take that away with you, and come back, if you can, with something that shows me that you have limited your "Nature of Service".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11177             MR. de SILVA:  We will be happy to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11178             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Miss Scarlett‑‑ and I am so happy that I get to say that‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11179             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You were talking about the two out of four diversity index, and that would be:  producers, directors, writers, and lead actors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11180             And then you said that DHX is one of your rosters of producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11181             Do they have diversity producers?  Is that the idea?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11182             Is it the individual producer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11183             MS SCARLETT:  Floyd Kane presently works with DHX, and he certainly is representative of a visible minority group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11184             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it's not the company that is the producer, it is the individual who is the producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11185             MS SCARLETT:  That's correct, but the company, like DHX, for example‑‑ every time a production gets produced, a single‑purpose production company is established.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11186             So, quite reasonably, if they were following our guidelines, they would ensure that there would be somebody that is representative from the visible minority group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11187             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11188             Another question that you did not answer‑‑ and I want to be very precise on this‑‑ of your acquired Canadian programming, what percentage will be original programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11189             You were asked that question several times by Commissioner Cugini, and I never found out.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11190             MS SCARLETT:  We did say that we had not worked it out on a percentage basis, we had simply assigned a dollar figure to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11191             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How many hours out of the total hours will be original?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11192             MR. de SILVA:  We will just take a moment to clarify that, Commissioner.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11193             MR. FORTUNE:  Commissioner Cram, if I may, what the Applicant has presented to the Commission is quite a detailed breakdown of exactly what hours of original programs will be produced, based on the assumptions they have made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11194             Honestly, I have never seen that before in an application.  Hour‑by‑hour, program‑by‑program, genre‑by‑genre is what has been presented to the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11195             And when you look at other licensing decisions, often you will see the Commission say, "And the Applicant has proposed to produce X hours of original programming."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11196             In response to what Commissioner Cugini asked, we had committed to come back with an indication of how many hours of acquired programming, per year, approximately, we would be looking at in our schedule for our acquired budget.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11197             Otherwise, the suggestion would be that we would present to the Commission the number of hours of original programs that this budget allows us to produce.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11198             Is that‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11199             A percentage, I'm not sure really‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11200             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It doesn't matter to me, hours or percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11201             But, Mr. Fortune, with respect, this is a very exceptional process.  We are looking at people requesting a very important status, so I think we owe it to the system to be very precise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11202             MR. FORTUNE:  I agree, and it is not that we didn't answer the question last time, it was that we committed to come back with an analysis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11203             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11204             Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11205             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11206             MS DIONNE:  Yes, I have a few questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11207             I would like to clarify the commitments.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11208             Following on CommissionerCram's concerns regarding the definition of "Nature of Service", you will come back to the panel with a proposed definition at the reply stage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11209             MR. de SILVA:  We will, on the "Nature of Service".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11210             MS DIONNE:  As for the number of hours for acquired programming per year, when would you provide that to the Commission?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11211             MR. de SILVA:  Later this afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11212             Would that be acceptable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11213             MS DIONNE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11214             You have agreed to 50 percent Cancon overall.  I see that, starting at Year 4, you propose 60 percent between 6:00 p.m. and midnight.  Would you agree to have a condition of licence reflecting that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11215             MR. de SILVA:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11216             MS DIONNE:  You have made a commitment of $2.1 million in script and concept development expenditures.  As you know, this is an important part of creating programming.  Would you accept this as a condition of your licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11217             MR. de SILVA:  Absolutely.  We see that as being a very crucial part of the development of our programming.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 11218             MR. de SILVA:  Our legal counsel is advising us that, obviously, our commitment to that number is based on our present plan of what our subscriber wholesale fee would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11219             So we would have to readjust that if there was another scenario that we were dealing with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11220             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11221             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. de Silva, you now have your two minutes to give us your best argument as to why you believe we should license Canada One.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11222             MR. de SILVA:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11223             This is our opportunity to summarize our application, in some ways.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11224             First of all, we believe that there are three seismic changes taking place in Canadian society.  First, we see a rapidly changing cultural and racial demographic across the country, but a television system that is not evolving, I think we have shown, fast enough, despite the various impressive steps that have been taken, mainly by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11225             Our central aim, Madam Chair and Commissioners, is to close that gap by including and reflecting Canada's diversity in the most‑watched genre of programming, namely, drama.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11226             As we have discussed, we will do this on Canada One, and a major part of our approach, as well, will be to be a catalyst and an incubator.  So our efforts will go beyond the production of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11227             We will train visible minorities to work in the independent production sector, and, thus, work with all broadcasters.  A very key part is our outreach to other broadcasters to be a part of this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11228             We will do this through shared windows, and we will ensure that our high‑quality diverse programming will show up, eventually, across the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11229             We believe that this channel will be a long‑term, stable solution to having more Canadian drama, especially drama that is diverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11230             Second, we see the rapid increase in the number of foreign third‑language services, which means that a growing number of Canadian viewers are being lost to the Canadian broadcasting system.  This is serious, and we believe that we can play a role in changing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11231             We will also be fighting to keep Canadian viewers watching Canadian programs, which will benefit us, as well as Canadian broadcasters at large, so that we will contribute to the overall system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11232             We will do this by offering programming that reflects the lives of those who perhaps are being enticed to take their viewing habits offshore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11233             Third, we see an increasing amount of concentration in the broadcasting industry, and the resulting reduction of a diversity of voices in the industry, and we believe that by introducing a new player, which is experienced, reliable, and well financed, we will ensure that there are new voices and diverse voices in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11234             I think, Madam Commissioner, that those are our main points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11235             We, I think, ultimately believe, in a way, that the confluence of our proposal, Canada One, and the Commission's digital migration policy, to some degree, in fact, is potentially a magic moment in Canadian broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11236             I think we have an opportunity to really change the face of Canadian television by adding diversity to it, and providing a fresh, dynamic, and uniquely Canadian approach to dealing with a very, very important social issue.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11237             We see this as a confluence of social need and social policy, which could result in something uniquely Canadian, which would add a very valuable voice to the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11238             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. de Silva, and the rest of your panel members, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11239             We will now break for lunch, and we will resume at 2:15 p.m.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1315 / Suspension à 1315

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1415 / Reprise à 1415

LISTNUM 1 \l 11240             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11241             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11242             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 3 on the agenda, which is an application by The National Broadcast Reading Service, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a national digital programming undertaking to be known as "The Accessible Channel".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11243             The proposed service will provide 100 percent of its programming in described video format.  This programming will consist of news, information, drama, entertainment, and other television programming targeted to blind and vision impaired Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11244             Appearing for the Applicant is Gerald Weseen, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11245             Mr. Weseen, you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

*PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


LISTNUM 1 \l 11246             MR. WESEEN:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Vice‑Chairs, Commissioners and Commission Staff.  My name is Gerald Weseen.  In my day job, I am General Manager of Communications and Public Affairs at Nova Scotia Power Inc., but today I am here in my capacity as Vice‑Chair of the National Broadcast Reading Service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11247             NBRS is a not‑for‑profit registered charitable organization.  Our mandate is to enhance media access for blind and vision impaired Canadians, so that they may enjoy the same level and quality of information and entertainment as the general population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11248             I am pleased to be part of the team that has designed, and will today present, a completely described open format television service, The Accessible Channel‑‑ to our knowledge, a worldwide first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11249             The Accessible Channel is an immediate means by which we can achieve one of the key objectives of the Broadcasting Act, by making television and Canadian television programming truly accessible to Canada's vision impaired population.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11250             The Accessible Channel will, for the first time ever, provide blind and vision impaired Canadians with access to the same type of high‑quality, original and acquired programming, on one channel, that sighted Canadians have access to every day on hundreds of channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11251             I would like to start by introducing our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11252             Seated immediately to my right is Betty Nobel.  Betty is Department Head of the Program for the Visually Impaired at Vancouver Community College.  She is also a colleague on the NBRS Board, who serves as Chair of the NBRS National Program Committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11253             Seated next to Betty is Vanessa Carlisle, Assistant Managing Director of AudioVision Canada, or AVC.  AVC is a division of NBRS and is the Canadian pioneer of description.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11254             Next to Vanessa is Valerie Hochschild, Creative Director for AVC.  Val is an expert on the creation of described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11255             To my left is Stuart Robertson, of O'Donnell, Robertson and Sanfillipo, corporate counsel for NBRS and one of the first to be appointed to the board of The Accessible Channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11256             To his left is Kelly MacDonald, coordinator of the Voiceprint Local Broadcast Centre in Toronto.  Kelly has been with NBRS for six years, starting originally as a studio producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11257             Next to Kelly is Deborah Graffmann, a broadcast consultant who helped us source programming for The Accessible Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11258             Beside Deborah is John Stubbs of Stubbs Consulting, a broadcasting operations expert with over 35 years of experience.  John examined the pass‑through of described programs and designed the technical aspects of our proposed service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11259             In the second row, starting from my left, is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11260             Next to Debra is Duncan McKie, Senior Vice‑Chair of Pollara Inc., which was responsible for our consumer survey and recruitment of the focus groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11261             Beside Duncan is Rob Malcolmson, of Goodmans, our regulatory counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11262             Finally, next to Rob is Rick Brace, President of CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11263             I would ask Betty Nobel to begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11264             MS NOBEL:  Thank you.  Good afternoon et bonjour.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11265             The number of people who would benefit from described video to enjoy television and movies is, sadly, growing.  According to a 2004 study released by the Canadian Association of Ophthalmologists, age‑related macular degeneration has accounted for vision loss and blindness in 2.1 million persons.  Of course, that isn't the only cause of blindness and visual impairment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11266             Our estimate, based on what we know today, is that the market for described video, including family members of the vision impaired, is between 3.2 and 3.8 million people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11267             With a potential market of this size, it is shocking to find that even the limited amount of description that is being aired is a low or non‑priority for the majority of the cable and satellite companies.  Whatever they may say to the contrary, the fact remains that many of the cable companies, and certainly Star Choice, make little or no effort to pass through described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11268             This was confirmed by direct testing of the pass‑through on programs that have description in several markets across Canada last summer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11269             MR. STUBBS:  Described programming is typically delivered on the Secondary Audio Program, or S.A.P.  S.A.P. allows broadcasters to deliver the described soundtrack of a program on a secondary audio channel.  In order for the S.A.P. soundtrack to reach the audience, however, the cable or satellite distributor must pass it through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11270             Based on comments from blind and vision impaired Canadians, we investigated the availability of described programming in Canada, and what we found was of great concern.  Within the systems we looked at, less than 26 percent of the described programming made available by Canadian broadcasters was passed through to audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11271             Furthermore, the survey clearly indicated that information about where to find described programming is scarce, and often inaccurate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11272             Compounding the problem is that the hardware needed to access described video, including set‑top boxes and television sets themselves, requires assistance from a sighted person to activate the S.A.P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11273             MR. MacDONALD:  For those who think that activating S.A.P. for a vision impaired person is not an issue, let us demonstrate the strong visual component involved in operating this option.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 11274             MR. MacDONALD:  It really isn't as easy as one might think when you can't see the menu.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11275             The Accessible Channel will offer 100 percent of its schedule in an open described format.  That means, if mandatory carriage is granted, a vision impaired person like myself could access description any day, any time or anywhere they might be in Canada.  This would be a first for me and many of my friends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11276             With a commitment to 168 hours of description, The Accessible Channel will introduce over 8,000 hours of described programming per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11277             Putting this in context, approximately 3 percent of conventional stations, like Global's CHCH, is currently described.  Compare this to The Accessible Channel, where 100 percent of our weekly program schedule will be described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11278             Clearly, one of the most appealing aspects of the service is the fact that all description will be open.  Every single program will be available in a format that can be received and enjoyed by the vision impaired‑‑ no special equipment, no S.A.P., no on‑screen menus, no need for assistance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11279             MS NOBEL:  Accessible means readily obtained and available for use.  While NBRS applauds the efforts that have been made to date, it is clear that current described programming and delivery isn't sufficient.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11280             The Accessible Channel will increase the amount of described programming available immediately, without the need to alter existing licences.  It will provide access to programming not currently considered available for description.  It will increase description on many services through the reciprocal provision of described versions of programming.  This will give the community expanded options in not only what they watch, but where they watch.  It will provide new funding to the CTF to hopefully be used to increase the production of described programming.  It will resolve a technical impediment‑‑ the difficulty in accessing S.A.P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11281             MS HOCHSCHILD:  More than mere words, more than mere narrative, description is a very specialized enhancement of the soundtrack.  Through our unique approach to description, AVC produces a narrative description of a program's key visual elements that allows the audience to form a picture in their mind's eye of what sighted viewers see on screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11282             The process for creating description can be broken into four components.  With my team of writers and producers engaged solely in the production of description, we write the script, voice the description, place the description to the video, and, finally, mix and master the sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11283             When each of these elements is done well, the result is a seamless production where original soundtrack and narrative are blended into one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11284             Our talented describers and sophisticated sound mixing techniques make it so that the description doesn't detract from the original dialogue and sound effects.  This way, we ensure that non‑sighted persons and their sighted friends and families can watch the same program together, without any loss of enjoyment for either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11285             While description may appear to be a relatively straightforward exercise, the positive impact of this enhancement for the vision impaired cannot be easily measured.  So, rather than attempt to explain it, we thought it might be helpful for you to have us provide a short demonstration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11286             The following clip presents a crucial scene from CTV's mini‑series "Lives of the Saints", showing, first, what you and I enjoy; then, secondly, what a vision impaired person experiences; and, finally, how dramatically the addition of description can alter one's enjoyment of a program.

‑‑‑ Video Presentation / Présentation vidéo


LISTNUM 1 \l 11287             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Extrapolate this small example to your favourite movie or must‑see television show and imagine how limited and frustrating your experience of this entertainment would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11288             With the exception of the four hours provided by major broadcasters per week, and the two hours provided by some analog specialty services, the first part of the video we played is what the majority of the current TV landscape is like for the average blind or vision impaired Canadian.  Without the benefit of description, it is a confusing and marginalizing medium.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11289             MS GRAFFMANN:  The Accessible Channel will be a branded specialty service that will provide new and quality described content to our audience 24 hours a day.  As Kelly stated earlier, The Accessible Channel will introduce thousands of additional hours of described programming a year into the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11290             Through programming agreements with Canadian broadcasters and foreign rights holders, The Accessible Channel will be able to provide access to the most popular television programming in a range of genres.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11291             We will provide something of interest to all members of the community.  Most importantly, we want to provide the vision impaired community with access to the same popular programming that is available to the average Canadian and provokes those morning‑after water cooler conversations.  We want to invite the vision impaired into this day‑after discussion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11292             We will broadcast a broad range of entertainment programming, including the most popular categories, such as weekly dramas, comedies, documentaries and movies‑‑ all in an open described format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11293             Where simulcast is possible, The Accessible Channel will pass through the entire program, complete with the commercials that the mainstream audience sees, protecting the financial investment in rights made by the Canadian broadcasters providing the service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11294             And, for the first time, Canadian advertisers can be assured that described commercial content will be passed through.  This will give our audience something they have long wanted, insight into the information that commercials provide.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11295             In addition, in order to provide reflection of the community in our on‑air content, we will eventually commission the creation of new Canadian programming.  This programming will be created by independent Canadian producers and will feature themes and material which vision impaired audiences have indicated they would like to access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11296             MS CARLISLE:  Over the course of the past two years, Pollara surveyed the Canadian public three times to ascertain the level of support for this service.  Once in 2005, and on two separate occasions in 2006, Canadians affirmed their support and stated that they would willingly pay to ensure unencumbered access to television for vision impaired Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11297             Two things are particularly compelling about these findings.  First, the level of willingness to pay is consistently high across all studies.  Secondly, the overwhelming majority of respondents supported a separate service, even though they were made aware that this would be on top of current broadcaster commitments to provide description.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11298             When asked if they would be willing to pay to support the service, over 75 percent, in all three studies, stated that they would pay 25 cents per month.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11299             Focus groups were conducted with vision impaired respondents to help define the service and identify any issues or concerns they might have.  The findings indicate that there is unanimous support for increased description, open format, access to top foreign programs, and for basic carriage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11300             This support was again confirmed in the intervention phase, where NBRS received over 100 calls of support and over 800 letters and signatories on petitions sent to our offices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11301             In fact, this number does not include the many interventions from the community that continue to be sent to us as news of this application spreads.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11302             This is a huge show of support from a community that often feels they have no voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11303             MR. WESEEN:  The proposal we have put before you today is a partnership.  To make it work, The Accessible Channel will require the cooperation of producers, input from the blind and vision impaired community, and the goodwill of broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11304             We have, in fact, established that all three requirements are not only possible, they are assured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11305             I would ask Rick Brace to say a few words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11306             MR. BRACE:  Thanks very much, Gerald.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11307             CTV was approached by NBRS about whether we would participate with The Accessible Channel to provide our programming to be broadcast in described format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11308             As we learned more about this truly innovative and worthwhile proposal, and the potential it has to make Canadian television accessible, we agreed to participate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11309             But it should be made clear that CTV's program supply arrangement with The Accessible Channel is in no way an exclusive deal.  In fact, we encourage other broadcasters to participate in this worthy initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11310             In fact, the channel, at its option, can elect to take no programming whatsoever from CTV, if it so chooses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11311             I should also state that our role on the Board is intended to be purely advisory.  If the Commission has any concerns whatsoever with CTV having Board representation, we are willing to waive our right to Board seats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11312             It is our hope that, with the participation of Canada's broadcasters, The Accessible Channel will soon provide the vision impaired community with access to the same popular entertainment programming available to all Canadian audiences.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11313             MR. WESEEN:  The only thing needed to advance the integration of the vision impaired community into the culturally pervasive medium of television is the permission to broadcast, which we are seeking from you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11314             We hope that you will consider not only the needs and rights of this group, but our collective obligation as Canadians to ensure improved accessibility for people in the blind and vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11315             We trust that, upon examination, you will also agree that the concept of The Accessible Channel makes good business sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11316             NBRS is neither new to the discussion of making described video available nor in advocating that all of the elements of the broadcast system fulfil their obligation to make television accessible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11317             We have a long history, both with the Commission and with the community, of presenting and pressing the need for this format and in examining solutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11318             The concept for The Accessible Channel has developed over a long period of time, and we believe it is the next logical step in the ongoing evolution of service to the vision impaired community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11319             We do not propose The Accessible Channel as a substitute for current or even anticipated increases in the described video obligations of broadcasters; rather, The Accessible Channel will offer programming in addition to that already required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11320             No one element of the Canadian broadcasting system bears the cost and social obligation to provide access to television alone.  We all share in this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11321             The Accessible Channel will assist the efforts of the Commission, broadcasters and BDUs in improving the accessibility of the Canadian broadcasting system by making significantly more described programming available, helping to overcome the barriers to accessibility, and heightening awareness of access issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11322             Section 9(1)(h) services are required to be of exceptional importance to the achievement of the objectives of the Act.  The provision of programming accessible by the disabled is a plainly stated statutory objective.  In our view, The Accessible Channel is the most efficient and effective means by which this important objective can be fulfilled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11323             In closing, I think that the final words in our presentation should come from a member of the community we seek to serve.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11324             MS NOBEL:  Ladies and gentlemen, licensing The Accessible Channel will be an opportunity for the Commission to take a leadership role in providing more meaningful access to television to the vision impaired community.  With your support, The Accessible Channel will finally rectify the barriers to access constantly experienced by the vision impaired to much of the programming readily available to sighted Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11325             We thank you very much for the opportunity of presenting this to you, and for your attention, and we would be pleased to answer any of your questions.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11326             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11327             I would ask Commissioner del Val to ask the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11328             For the benefit of the blind and vision impaired members of your panel, Commissioner del Val is seated to your far right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11329             Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11330             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you for your oral presentation, which I found to be very helpful.  It will actually shorten the question period.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11331             These are the areas that I would like to cover.  First, I would ask if you could help me set the scene of what programming the vision impaired have today on TV.  Then we will move on to how, actually, video description is done.  Then we will move on to costs, which will be followed by programming, and then the role within the system of The Accessible Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11332             Lastly, I would like to discuss the wholesale rate and your business case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11333             First, Mr. Stubbs, your research concludes that only 26 percent of the video described programming currently is being passed through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11334             MR. STUBBS:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11335             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I have noted your replies to the interventions.  Did you ever calculate that if everyone were compliant, and 100 percent was passed through, how many hours of video described programming there would be in the system right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11336             MR. STUBBS:  I didn't do that calculation, but for a conventional broadcaster, it is 3 percent of their schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11337             If you took the regular over‑the‑air broadcasters, that would be the case.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11338             Then, for specialty, they only have two hours, so it is 1.5 percent of their schedule that would be available and described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11339             The numbers are extremely low for each individual broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11340             I didn't tally every station that must carry description and put that into hours, but, on an individual basis, it's not many.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11341             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What you have also found is, of that number, which you have described as "not many", only 26 percent is being passed through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11342             MR. STUBBS:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11343             I will give you an example.  I monitored TVTropolis a couple of days ago, and they list "Due South" as being played, and I checked on Rogers in the Toronto area, and I couldn't pick it up.  I checked on Bell ExpressVu, which had it listed as part of its listings that it would carry, and it was not available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11344             So where that lay, I am not sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11345             Even as a fully sighted person trying to uncover how to get at the programming, and where the issues are, has been very, very difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11346             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I will move on to the technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11347             In paragraph 48 of its supplementary brief, NBRS said:


~                     "Described video versions of CTV's programming not currently available through the distributor or production will be produced by The Accessible Channel.  This means that highly popular U.S. prime programming that is not typically available anywhere in the world in described format will be available to both CTV and through The Accessible Channel.  Because of the late production dates, top U.S. prime programming often arrives the afternoon of the date of broadcast.  In the typical production cycle of described programming, this would automatically rule out the creation of a described soundtrack.  However, through advancements of software and production techniques, AVC..."

‑‑ which is AudioVision Canada:


~                     "...has developed a means by which same day description and mixing can be accomplished, addressing the increasing need to meet tight deadlines."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11348             It makes it sound like there is now a new technology available, and I can see in your reply that it has been about 10 years in the making.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11349             Without the use of this technology, what is happening now?  How do you do video description now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11350             Could you walk me through an example, step‑by‑step, of exactly what happens today when a program which has not been video described is received until it is ready for broadcast in a video described format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11351             What happens now, without the new technology?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11352             MR. WESEEN:  I will ask Valerie to speak to that, but a point I would make is that the requirements in the United States for description, which were present a number of years ago, are actually no longer in place, so that has increased the challenge of receiving content from the U.S. that actually arrives described, because of that requirement.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11353             Maybe, Val, you could address the process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11354             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Again, to clarify, you are asking about the process as it stands right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11355             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, as it stands right now, and I would like you to walk me through it step‑by‑step.  Who does what and‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11356             I would really appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11357             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Sure.  We discuss with the provider, be it the production company or the broadcaster, when is the earliest instance that we can get the program, and they are able to tell us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11358             If things look like they are going to be especially tight, we will ask:  Is there an offline version?  Is there a preliminary version?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11359             Maybe not a final mix, but something like that, which we could have to start writing, and they may provide us with that.  That gives us a little bit of a headstart, which one would not normally have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11360             As for the actual process once we get the material, whatever it may be, we get it to a writer, and that is where the hard, subjective, human‑type work happens.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11361             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  "We" is AudioVision Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11362             MS HOCHSCHILD:  I am speaking in terms of AudioVision.  The facilities and the technology that I would ever be discussing here are open to all other companies, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11363             In terms of us, AudioVision, we give that material to a writer, making sure that it has time codes, because that's what we hang everything on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11364             The writer makes the big choices of what to write, and where to put it, consistent with our philosophy of helping to tell the story, and to make sure that the experience among those who are vision impaired and those who aren't is as synchronized as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11365             With all of that in mind, a person writes a description for a show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11366             Once that is completed, we get the script back in our studios, we bring in a voice person, we record it, and it is all ingested, in this case, in Pro Tools‑‑ pretty much your gold standard for video and audio production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11367             We have a producer then place the description to video, which means placing it where it actually is going to happen in the video, toward that synchronistic experience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11368             Then it is mixed and it is mastered.  What that usually means is that it is recorded onto the tape that is going to go to the broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11369             That is usually the way the process goes right at this moment.  A broadcaster or a production company may have other demands, for example, that it be on another format or something, and we would go with that, but that is pretty much the average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11370             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  How long does it take right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11371             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Right now, an hour of description, from the very beginning to the very end, is approximately, at fastest, four hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11372             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  This is a little bit of a tangent.  Does it make any difference whether you are inserting the video description for an open format, as in The Accessible Channel, or for S.A.P.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11373             MS HOCHSCHILD:  No, it's all in the transmission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11374             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  With the new technology that you have described, can you walk me through the steps again?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11375             Once you receive the material that is not described, to the time it is ready for broadcast described, what happens?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11376             Are the steps different from what you described earlier?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11377             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Are you speaking in terms of what you mentioned earlier, in terms of the brief, of the same day kind of scenario?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11378             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, I am, and then the rolling description.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11379             MS HOCHSCHILD:  The steps for what we call short turnaround, same day, would be the same, but consolidated and portable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11380             The technology of which we speak‑‑ there are various technologies being tested.  What I believe we are referring to is CapScribe, a software that we have been testing for a while now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11381             What would this entail?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11382             The process, as I earlier described it, would be consolidated onto one workstation, done by one person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11383             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So from the writer to the producer, and the mixing and mastering, all of those steps would be consolidated into one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11384             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Yes, up to mixing, depending on what the broadcaster or production company wanted to finish or put through.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11385             But, yes, the capability is there for every step in this one place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11386             In fact, because of those time demands, it would be on a laptop and could go on‑site to the broadcaster as soon as it is received.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11387             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  In the present‑day scenario, which is the four‑hour process that you described‑‑ and I will call this the new technology‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11388             Shall I just call it the CapScribe technology?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11389             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Sure, for simplicity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11390             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  In the present‑day scenario, you have the people involved‑‑ you have the writer, the producer‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11391             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11392             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Do you have a separate person for mixing and mastering?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11393             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Usually the person who does the placing also does the mixing and mastering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11394             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So there are three people involved?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11395             MS HOCHSCHILD:  At the least, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11396             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  With CapScribe, do you have only one person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11397             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11398             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Where has CapScribe been used before?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11399             Is it a tested technology?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11400             MR. STUBBS:  If I may, I think I may be best to answer that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11401             MS HOCHSCHILD:  I was about to say that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11402             MR. STUBBS:  It has been developed as a universal tool for access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11403             I have been involved in its development, right from its inception, and it has been part of making things accessible with universities‑‑ The University of Toronto, Ryerson‑‑ and I have actually trained high school students to do their student videos and describe them and make them available on the internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11404             So this process has been going on for several years, and it is being used.  I have used it to do productions for CHUM, and have quite extensive experience with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11405             And I de‑bugged the system, so I was very instrumental in‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11406             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So you have used it for commercial purposes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11407             MR. STUBBS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11408             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Using CapScribe, by how much have you cut down the time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11409             MR. STUBBS:  In the very beginning, when description started, it started out to be about 20 hours of work that it would take to produce one hour of described product.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11410             It is down now.  I have actually produced an hour and a half in about two hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11411             It is because the process is all on one platform.  You are not using a VCR to skip around, it's all digital.  So you are much faster at getting to the place to describe, and identifying those areas that are best used for description.  It has advanced the whole world of description incredibly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11412             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Yes, John is a little further along in it than me, but, as soon as I got my hands on it and put it on my laptop, it was pretty obvious that this could really speed things up considerably.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11413             Yes, the time he was mentioning that it would take to do something that was an hour and a half, that is perfectly feasible.  I can see how that would be so.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11414             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Who else uses CapScribe?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11415             Do you know?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11416             MR. STUBBS:  Commercially, it is only AudioVision that has taken advantage of it.  It is freely open.  You could go on the website and download it yourself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11417             It was developed as part of an overall program that was funded by Heritage, so it is an open source program that is freely available for people to download.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11418             It was demonstrated at the Open Forum for Broadcasters, called Innoversity, in Toronto in November.  We demonstrated it there for any interested parties that would like to take advantage of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11419             It is all about making things accessible, and increasing the amount of material that is accessible, and making it much easier to develop that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11420             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  How easy is it to train to use this software?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11421             MR. STUBBS:  I trained a set of high school students in a morning class.  By the end, they were describing their own little videos that they had done.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11422             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  To use CapScribe to video describe, say, a one‑hour show, how much do you think it would cost?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11423             What is the cost of it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11424             MS McLAUGHLIN:  It is about, market price, $1,500.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11425             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Without CapScribe, when you were using the present‑day system, where the steps were not integrated, how much did it cost?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11426             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The pricing for description started at about $4,000 when the Commission originally made it a condition of licence, and it has come down gradually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11427             I think the market now, because there is a lot of competition‑‑ I believe there are 14 companies operating, and under competitive pressure, I believe it is sitting at around $1,500 to $1,800.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11428             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I don't know whether what we were talking about is also what you have described as "rolling description".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11429             Is CapScribe what you would use to implement rolling description?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11430             MS HOCHSCHILD:  I don't believe so.  This would be in what is closest to a live scenario.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11431             I believe that The Accessible Channel is planning to have people for that themselves, but I know about the technique, so I could explain that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11432             It would involve two people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11433             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I'm sorry, this is rolling description that we are talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11434             MR. STUBBS:  What we would call "real‑time description".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11435             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11436             MS HOCHSCHILD:  To use an example of a live program, such as "Canada AM" on CTV‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11437             I think through the technique the term "rolling" will make some sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11438             It is also on‑site with the broadcaster.  It would be done by two people‑‑ on the condition, as explained in the application, of a delay of several to about 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11439             The first person would be watching the initial broadcast and describing, essentially, on the fly, and then that description would be handed off to the other person, who would voice that description and do any further production, while the writer was continuing to write what was coming next‑‑ so rolling from one to another.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11440             Once the voice person finished any additional production, it would go straight to the broadcaster to do whatever comes next.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11441             So, when it's over, it's over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11442             MR. WESEEN:  Commissioner, our experience would be that, while the technology has made this infinitely easier‑‑ and I think the example just provided is a good example‑‑ there is a particular expertise, and there is a nuance subjectivity that sort of goes into being able to capture this and describe it in a way that doesn't detract from the experience, which is a critical thing that we hear from the broadcasters.  They want to make sure that if a blind or vision impaired person is enjoying a program, they are enjoying it to the same degree that a sighted person would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11443             So there is a quality level there that, while technology has made it easier, it is a particular expertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11444             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  This real‑time describing, are you thinking of using that only for news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11445             What kind of programming could you use it for?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11446             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We are only anticipating, in the case of The Accessible Channel, that it would be "Canada AM".  All other programs lend themselves to a more labour intensive description.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11447             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Has this been tried before?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11448             Has the real‑time description been tried before?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11449             MS HOCHSCHILD:  Yes, it has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11450             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  By whom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11451             MS HOCHSCHILD:  I believe that Mr. Stubbs has done some work on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11452             MR. STUBBS:  I have done it, but not on a live broadcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11453             I did a lot of research as part of the programs with the universities on developing live description techniques and what kind of programs are appropriate for doing live description, and it's really‑‑ when you can follow a script, and there are no surprises that you have to anticipate‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11454             As soon as you have to anticipate, "Is somebody going to come through that door?  No?  Okay"‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11455             When you have to anticipate, you can't really live describe it, because you have no prior knowledge of what is going to happen.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11456             But, in a news, talk‑type format, you are pretty well assured of what is going to happen next.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11457             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  This real‑time rolling description technique has not been deployed commercially before?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11458             MR. STUBBS:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11459             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Only programs that are scripted, programs like "Canada AM", are mainly news programs, which currently, I believe, are not required to be video described because they are inherently informative, or audio intensive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11460             What value do you see being added to video describing these types of programs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11461             MR. WESEEN:  I might get Betty to answer that, as a consumer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11462             MS NOBEL:  As part of our research, we asked people from the blind and vision impaired community, "What programs would you like to see?" and while they receive a lot of news and information by radio and listening to television programming‑‑ regular television news that is quite audio intensive, they particularly mentioned "Canada AM", and we felt that this would be a good pilot, and it was something that people really wanted to access more fully.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11463             Generally speaking, of course, we have the VoicePrint service, which provides news and information, and people can listen to the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11464             Television news is quite audio, although you certainly do encounter situations where you hear this "tick, tick, tick" and they show people the stock market, or a telephone number flashes across the screen that isn't voiced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11465             While it isn't perfect, it is, I would say, far more described than, for example, the clip that you saw earlier as part of our presentation, which was basically music and lots of breathing and funny sounds, and you don't know what is happening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11466             MR. MacDONALD:  I would like to add two more examples, one being the weather‑‑ "Let's check the temperature in your location"‑‑ and something as easy as, "We will be back with more after these commercials," and some of the information that went before which has been posted on the screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11467             There is that music bridge, where things are scrolled through, and numbers and other information comes up, which, right now, the vision impaired community is not able to access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11468             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11469             I actually watched "Canada AM" after I‑‑ I actually went over to a friend's, who has ExpressVu, to watch their video described channel, and one of the programs was "Canada AM", but in a program like that, the anchor person is speaking, and behind them would be an image.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11470             On the one hand, I was thinking, "Okay, I would never be able to see that," but, on the other hand, it would be very difficult to describe over the voice of the anchor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11471             So I don't know whether‑‑ this rolling description or real‑time, is it an experiment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11472             Would it be just to describe the portions of the program that can be described?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11473             MR. STUBBS:  Even before we anticipated bringing this up as an option, I did go through the process of describing that program, and it was successful.  There are elements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11474             It is not intense description that is involved, but it is enough to keep you informed and keep you apprised of what is going on.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11475             MR. WESEEN:  An information program, I think, where you have an interview where there are some visuals, or where someone might be off on‑site‑‑ because television is, at its best, a visual medium with an audio component, and if you are using TV correctly, if I could put it that way, or in the most optimal way, you are going to see a lot of things, and the audio will contribute to that‑‑ or the words that you hear will contribute to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11476             In an interview environment, especially if your are off‑site, or if you have some interaction going on that's not just words, that does add to the experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11477             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  How much does the rolling description cost?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11478             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We haven't costed it out as rolling description versus short turnaround or regular description, because, for this particular function, we have built into the business plan contract describers who would do this on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11479             So it's part of the actual cost of our overall production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11480             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  The contract describers, are they contracted to AVC or are they contracted to the licensee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11481             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The licensee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11482             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Going back to the same paragraph 48 of the supplementary brief‑‑ and I think that Mr. Brace may have answered some of the questions already‑‑ it says:


~                     "This means that highly popular U.S. prime programming that is not typically available anywhere in the world...will be available to both CTV and through The Accessible Channel."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11483             Could you describe that a bit?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11484             I believe Mr. Brace said that CTV is not intending this to be an exclusive arrangement, and from what you have described, CapScribe is downloadable anywhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11485             Is there any intention to use this technique, and also to have the rolling description only available on The Accessible Channel and nowhere else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11486             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I will answer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11487             One of the things that we discovered when we went out to do our focus groups was, in fact, that there was a concern that we would be presenting programming on one channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11488             If we are getting the rights to broadcast a program that CTV, for example, currently owns, we are not buying the rights for "Canada", they own it.  All we are doing is covering the incremental cost to either get the described version or, in the case where we describe it, to produce that programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11489             So once we have it described at The Accessible Channel, it is our intention to send it back to CTV, in time for them to broadcast it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11490             In that case, because our primary concern is to make this a reasonable proposition for all broadcasters, we will try to do a simulcast wherever possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11491             So they sell that program to their advertisers, they realize the value, but we make it available on The Accessible Channel, where there is no need for S.A.P. or any of the other problems that regularly occur for the vision impaired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11492             And we do this with all broadcasters, not just CTV, obviously.  But that is why the programming would exponentially increase, in terms of availability, because it is just not on The Accessible Channel, it is returned to the host broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11493             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  The arrangement that you would have with CTV, in terms of doing the video description at your cost and returning it to CTV, you are willing to make that arrangement with any broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11494             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11495             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is absolutely correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11496             In fact, to meet the needs of the vision impaired community, we have to do it with as many broadcasters as will participate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11497             MR. WESEEN:  As well, to be clear, we have had preliminary discussions with CTV, and we have a commitment for conversations going forward, but we don't have a signed agreement yet.  We have a memorandum of understanding and an intent to move forward with that, as opposed to something that is already locked in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11498             MR. BRACE:  Perhaps I should re‑emphasize that, from a CTV perspective, we are not making any obligation‑‑ demanding any obligation that we deliver a certain amount of programming.  It is totally at the decision of the channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11499             MS NOBEL:  I would also like to add that it won't be only AVC that will be describing these programs.  We will be obtaining, hopefully, the rights to programs that have already been described by other companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11500             So there will be business for other companies that do description, as well as AVC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11501             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11502             You are anticipating my questions, aren't you?


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11503             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I am behind you a little bit, so I need to take you back to paragraph 48, where it says:

~                     "The Accessible Channel will license this technology to ensure that there is a significant increase in the availability of U.S. prime time programming in an open described format."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11504             The Accessible Channel will license it from whom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11505             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The software is actually, as John described, the production of several publicly funded entities, or funding from several entities, and when we wrote this application we anticipated a fee.  Subsequently, we have confirmed that there is no fee associated and it is available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11506             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Great.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11507             This is an area about simultaneous substitution.  I have read your reply to CanWest's intervention, and I found that that helped to clarify things in my mind a lot, but I want to make sure that I understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11508             The Accessible Channel is not intending to carry out simultaneous substitution, is it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11509             MR. STUBBS:  If I may, it may be a confusion of terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11510             We will simulcast broadcast, we will not substitute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11511             Say that CTV carries "Corner Gas" in described format.  If we had permission to carry that, we would carry the described version, at the same time, and we would just be picking up their S.A.P. feed of that transmission, and we would pass it through our console, and that's how it would be broadcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11512             MR. WESEEN:  It would be available in an open format, versus having the S.A.P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11513             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11514             Would you be effecting simultaneous substitution‑‑ let's say, if the CTV feed came to you with the commercial not described, then would you describe the commercial and insert that signal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11515             MS McLAUGHLIN:  No, we would not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11516             We are taking the feed absolutely, as it comes from the broadcaster.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11517             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11518             MR. WESEEN:  As a result of some of the initial conversations we have had with broadcasters, we have also had conversations with the Association of Canadian Advertisers, and elicited some real interest in increasing the description of commercials, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11519             So we hope that there will be an opportunity with The Accessible Channel to increase the availability, or the interest, or the regularity of described commercial content, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11520             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You might have touched on this before, but can you give me an idea of how much it costs to video describe an episode like "Corner Gas"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11521             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Currently, it is probably between $750 and $900 an episode.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11522             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What about a movie like "The Sound of Music"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11523             MS McLAUGHLIN:  It's based on an hourly fee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11524             As I said, it ranges now from about $1,500 or $1,600 to $1,800.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11525             It depends.  As with any business, if someone is going to commit to 26 episodes or 13 episodes of description, there is a bit of an economy there, because you can assign one single writer, and there is no learning curve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11526             A two‑hour movie requires someone to learn about the characters and understand the entire movie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11527             With a series, of course, there is a series bible, so to speak, and the writers would have that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11528             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Using CapScribe, does it cost more or less?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11529             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Right now it is costing, I would say, slightly less, because of the labour intensiveness of the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11530             But these are more highly trained people, because we are combining several functions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11531             Writers like to write.  There are voice people.  They are all paid separately, and that goes into the $1,500 to $1,800.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11532             We are talking about an entirely different breed of skilled people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11533             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  The equipment, or the facilities that are needed to have CapScribe video description, who would own that equipment?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11534             MR. STUBBS:  It really is done on a Mac computer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11535             It was designed for common use, so that you could use a very base Mac.  It is designed, and it doesn't function in Windows, but‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11536             MS HOCHSCHILD:  I have a very base Mac, so I can attest to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11537             MR. STUBBS:  It is quite simple, the equipment necessary to actually get the job done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11538             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I want to move on to programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11539             I know that you have the agreement with CTV right now for a third of your programming.  Are there other suppliers with whom you have program acquisition rights?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11540             MR. WESEEN:  I will ask Debra to answer that, but we have a memorandum of understanding with CTV, and we have had some initial discussions with other broadcasters.  We have looked at other programming sources, specialty channels, networks in the U.S. and the U.K., specifically with content that we think will be of interest to our audience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11541             And we have tried to take a look‑‑ and I think that Betty referred to this‑‑ at the focus groups and research we have done with the blind and vision impaired community to ascertain what types of programs they would be interested in, to put that in a bit of a suite of preferred programs that we would like to look at, if you will, as a basis for discussions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11542             That informed our approach to putting together the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11543             So I think it would be fair to say, Debra, that we are still in the early stages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11544             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  We began our discussions with CTV, because this is a consumer‑driven service, and when we looked at the top‑rated programs, at least the top 20, CTV certainly had, at that time, the majority of them.  They were frequently mentioned at the focus groups, so that seemed a logical place to begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11545             But we did talk to broadcasters.  We did have preliminary meetings with others, and asked about availability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11546             If we just look at the math of it, considering the four major broadcast groups, as they sit today, that 16 hours that you have regulated to be available on those services, if I look at CHUM, CTV, CHCH and Global's main network, that is 50 percent of our Canadian content‑‑ actually more of it‑‑ right there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11547             But we went further afield.  We talked to people in the U.S.  We talked to distributors about the likelihood of described programming being available on an ongoing basis on current programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11548             We looked at historical programming.  When I say historical, I mean something from last season or before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11549             There is a service in the U.S. called The Narrative Network, and they broadcast half a day in open description.  They have been very good at getting rights for that broadcast.  We spent some time with them discussing if, by extension, we could get those rights for broadcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11550             There are the PBS stations.  We have had discussions with them.  We have had discussions with the BBC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11551             In fact, post‑filing and prior to this hearing, the discussions have continued, because there is enthusiasm for it, and we have letters confirming their interest in providing us this programming.  If you would like, we would be happy to file them with you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11552             MR. WESEEN:  We have also had some discussions with independent producers about the potential for original programming, which is proposed in the middle to latter part of the proposed licence period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11553             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Ms McLaughlin, I would like you, please, to file those letters evidencing interest in providing programs to The Accessible Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11554             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11555             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Are there any negotiations besides CTV that have progressed beyond the stage of true interest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11556             MS McLAUGHLIN:  In terms of memorandums of understanding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11557             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11558             MS McLAUGHLIN:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11559             We felt, at that time, that it would be premature to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11560             What we did was, we took these discussions to the level of costing, turnaround time, their delivery schedule, when The Accessible Channel produces the soundtrack‑‑ the described soundtrack‑‑ who owns that soundtrack at the end of it, and how can that be maximized for distribution.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11561             Because there are an awful lot of details‑‑ as the saying goes, the devil is in the details‑‑ we didn't spend the time to formalize these agreements, because, as we got into it, we realized that we were, at that time, negotiating without a licence to broadcast.  So we backed ourselves out of those discussions and simply settled for letters confirming our discussions and their willingness to provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11562             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Backing up, for those programming services that have video description obligations, did you have negotiations with them to see if you could air what they air through S.A.P. on your Accessible Channel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11563             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We didn't have negotiations with everyone.  We did find that, post‑filing, a couple of broadcasters approached us, concerned that they might be left out of the process because they hadn't been named.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11564             We had discussions prior to filing with them, and what we determined was, and the way we looked at this‑‑ the big challenge was to see if rights were available, if the broadcaster could transfer rights.  Could we possibly produce the programming in a timely manner?  Could we return it to them, and could we maintain the value of their investment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11565             We determined, through our talks with CTV, that a conventional broadcaster's rights could be protected in this process.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11566             We determined, through preliminary conversations with CBC, what their issues might be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11567             We talked to BBC, which, of course, supplies programming to two digital services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11568             We talked to APTN, and talked about their rights issues, their delivery.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11569             Really, how we approached this was that, instead of an exhaustive set of negotiations to see who would provide, we looked at all of the particular scenarios, in terms of people's rights and how they buy them, and how that would work out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11570             I guess our presumption was, with a second window for broadcasting, with the audience being transferred back to the broadcaster, rights and timing and delivery schedules were the primary concerns.  It wasn't an issue, necessarily, of whether they would want to do it, because, from a business plan perspective, at least from our perspective on their business, it made a lot sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11571             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Right now we know that you have one‑third of your programmingon which you have an agreement that you can deliver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11572             How confident are you of obtaining sufficient programming to fill your broadcast day?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11573             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If there is something more than extremely confident, then that's where we sit.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11574             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11575             In your typical arrangement, if there is a typical arrangement, how do you share the revenues with the provider of the program and your channel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11576             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I could clarify, the revenues from‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11577             Our total revenues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11578             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11579             MS McLAUGHLIN:  What we have done is, we have costed out programming, really, in three ways.  The first is programming that a host broadcaster in Canada holds the rights to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11580             Again, based on the discussions we had, we will cover the incremental cost that they would incur to purchase the described soundtrack from‑‑ whether it is U.S. or wherever they purchase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11581             So that pricing has been done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             The second price structure is on programming that they hold the rights to, which we actually would have to create the description for.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             Then, the third is programming that we purchase the rights for, simply to air with the description intact, whether that is from The Narrative Network or BBC, or whomever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             In actual fact, we priced it just as any network or any broadcasting entity would.  This is a price per hour of programming, and we just, uniquely, I guess, have three different kinds of structures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You were giving the breakdown of buying programs that are already described, ones that you will describe, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             Can you give a breakdown in terms of, say, 100 percent of your programming, what percentage would you expect would come to you already described, and what percentage would you have to describe?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is a really tough question, which we have really toyed with.  Again, it depends on several parts of the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             If I am just looking at our prime time, for example, to give you a concrete set of numbers‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             If we consider prime time 7:00 to 11:00‑‑ so there are 28 hours, if my math is working‑‑ there are currently 16 hours that are, by conditions of licence, described in the Canadian system, and we will just say on the major networks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             I think that works out to about 57 percent of the 28 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             The remainder of that‑‑ we would hope we would be able to access U.S. programming, which, for the large part, isn't described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             So, using prime time, I would say it's about 60:40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             It changes in the daytime, because that's where you would see a majority of it being purchased in a described format, simply because we don't anticipate simulcast, and there aren't conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             Unless a program is being re‑purposed from its original first run into a daytime schedule, they typically don't come through described.  So we have treated the remainder of that schedule as that which we would have to acquire, either in a described format or that we would have to describe ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I always have to keep straight in my mind the difference between what you call new programming, referring to newly video described programming, and original programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             I just want to clarify that they are not the same thing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             Newly described programming could be a re‑run.  It could have been shown on TV before, but not video described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             But original programming is something that you would produce?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is absolutely correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             In the newly described, it could be the U.S. primes, which, typically, are not described.  They don't come in because the FCC regulations on description have been turned back.  They are no longer an obligation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             Or, they could, in fact, be programs that The Narrative Network is airing.  For example, the entire "Law and Order" series has been described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             In terms of the Canadian system, that would be new description, and certainly new description to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I want to go to your promise to commission five hours of original series programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             That is in paragraph 52 of your supplementary brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             Is that per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Is this programming that is going to be commissioned specifically for The Accessible Channel, or will it also be available in non‑described format for, say, other channels?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Our anticipation is that the themes of this programming would make it uniquely attractive to our audience.  So we didn't anticipate that someone else might want to pick it up, but, certainly, I would imagine that that would be an option.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Of this five hours, what proportion do you think will be produced in‑house and what will be by independent producers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The only plans we have for producing in‑house are for the Described Program Guide.  Everything else has been priced on independent production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  On the Described Viewing Guide, I see that that is through Years 1 to 3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             MS McLAUGHLIN:  It is actually Years 1 through 7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  Great.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             When you referred to the five hours of commissioned original series programming, that is only for Years 4 to 7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  For Years 1 to 7 I have the Described Viewing Guide, and then, for Years 4 to 7, in addition to the Viewing Guide, I will only have five original hours ofprogramming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.  The Viewing Guide would not only be a guide for people in the blind and vision impaired community to access information about what is on The Accessible Channel, it would be a viewing guide for everything that is available on the Canadian broadcasting system‑‑ that is available and in described format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             Is that what you meant when you said in paragraph 53 that the Described Video Guide would also show its highlights, along with highlights from other services?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Are you anticipating carrying any advertising on the Described Video Guide?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I would think that that would be one of the things that would be most attractive to be sponsored, frankly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             MS McLAUGHLIN:  As opposed to an advertisement within the Guide, it would be brought to you by the title ofthe sponsorship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Along with highlights from other services, do you anticipate receiving a fee from other services when you highlight them in your Described Video Guide?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             MS McLAUGHLIN:  No.  The purpose of the Guide is just to let everyoneknow ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             And it would be something like: "Coming up in the next hour is `Law and Order'.  It's available on the following channels."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             It just gives options.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  At paragraph 63 of your supplementary brief you talk about the French service, and it sounds to me like what you are asking for is the authority to offer up to four hours per week of French‑language described programming, but without any intention to provide that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             Could you elaborate on that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             MS McLAUGHLIN:  What we were concerned about‑‑ and I guess this stems partially from doing focus groups in Ottawa‑‑ was that there was an opportunity for the community to hear some of the other official language‑‑ or both official languages, to be correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             We are intending‑‑ and we have it in our schedule, and have sourced programming for four hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             If there is some regulatory nuance that I have missed, I apologize.  We simply just had it in the schedule to make sure that we provided as many options as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Will you be producing four hours of French video described programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We hope to acquire it, but we have money set aside for description, and it is non‑specific in terms of language.  So if it happens to be that the four hours of French programming, for whatever week, is not available in described format, then the money would be spent to develop that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             But our anticipation is that 52 weeks a year there would be four hours of French‑language programming available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And you would accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Then, on your general programming:  Providing 500 new hours of fully described programming per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             Are you willing to accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, understanding that that is the minimum, because that is the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             Going back to the five original hours per year, are you willing to accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             Bear in mind that, in Years 1 to 3, you are only producing the Described Video Guide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I want to clarify something.  In Years 4 through 7, the five hours does include the Programming Guide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             So it is actually 4 and a half hours, in addition to the Programming Guide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             So, if the condition of licence could be worded in that manner, that would be excellent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  All right.  Then, in Years 1 to 3 you would not be able to accept a condition of licence‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             MS McLAUGHLIN:  For five hours.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  ‑‑ for five hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             MS McLAUGHLIN:  No, we would not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Going to 500 new hours of fully described.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             We have talked about the sources that they are coming from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             When I looked at the Programming Guide which you filed with your application, you have a legend that says, "`New' indicates new episodes of the show, and is shown simultaneously with convention network broadcast," and I count only 5 and a half hours per week of new shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             I see "Corner Gas" and "CSI Miami" on Monday, "Law and Order" on Tuesday, "Criminal Minds" on Wednesday, "CSI" and "ER" on Thursday, and that totals only 5 and a half hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             Those programs are newly described and newly seen, I guess.  They have never been seen on TV before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I am confused by the terminology we are using here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             I can tell you that "Corner Gas", for example, is a CTV program that is currently available in a described format, in the system today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             In reference to the 500 hours, that is commissioning new description into the system.  So that could be description on a brand new U.S. program, like "Criminal Minds", that currently isn't available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             It could, however, be taking a series that ran‑‑ "The O.C.", for example, is now out of production, so we could take "The O.C." and describe it and put that hour in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             The legend‑‑ I am not quite sure if it was meant to depict what you are hoping it does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             I think that the legend was put together for my purposes, just in understanding where we are going to get it‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  No, I am not hoping to find anything, I just want to understand how better to read the program schedule, and to find out the facts about the programming that we will see on television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             MR. WESEEN:  On this program schedule, "New" indicates a new episode of the show that we would be showing simultaneously, as opposed to "newly described".

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             Re‑runs that have already been shown on other channels, could you estimate how many hours there would be in a week; and, then, what percentage of total programming that would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             Re‑runs that have already been shown on other channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I would have to do a very fast calculation here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             If I could beg your indulgence, we could file that by reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.  Could you, please, do this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             If you look at the Program Guide that you filed, I would ask you to identify which ones are new, using your own definition‑‑ your own legend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             Then, the next category that I would need you to identify is which ones are newly described‑‑ so they could be re‑runs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             Then, of the next categories, which ones are original programming that you will have commissioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             Then, I also need to get a sense of what type of general interest station this will be.  So could you assign to each of your shows the category that you have identified in section 7.1 of the application?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             That is, which is a 1, which is news; which is a 7(a), which is an ongoing dramatic series, et cetera?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, we could do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I know that Ms Dionne would make me ask this.  How long do you think you will need to do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Reply is tomorrow morning.  Do you need it by the end of this process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             Could we get it to you by the end of the hearing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             MS DIONNE:  If that's possible, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Turning now to the MOU with CTV‑‑ and this is what Ms Nobel referred to earlier when I was saying that you anticipated my question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             Clause 8 of the MOU talks about using AudioVision to produce video description of CTV's programs, and it obligates the licensee to use best efforts to use AudioVision.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             I also go back to your answer, Ms Nobel, that competitors of AudioVision will also have an opportunity to video describe, but, in the commercial sense, when the licensee is obligated to use best efforts, that limits, legally and practically, tremendously the opportunity left to competitors of AudioVision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             So I am not sure whether you were aware of this obligation to make best efforts to use AudioVision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             MS NOBEL:  Yes, I was, actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             Perhaps Debra is the best person to explain that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Not that I normally do this, but I am going to let Mr. Malcolmson address this issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             MR. MALCOLMSON:  I would make two points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             First of all, it is a best efforts obligation only, so it is not a hard contractual requirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             If, for some reason, another description company, for example, is able to describe a CTV program at a higher quality, then, presumably, they would go to the best provider of the service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             Secondly, it is only in respect of the programming provided by CTV that that obligation exists, and it's important to remember that it is NBRS, the licensee, that determines how much programming it takes at any given time from CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             So it is not CTV saying, "Here is 33 percent of our schedule, go and describe it for us," it is determined by the licensee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I could add a point of clarification, that is only with respect to the new description that we would be getting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             For example, "Corner Gas", which appears on our schedule, currently comes in a described format from CTV, so there would be no expectation whatsoever for existing description obligations that they have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  We know that CTV is not looking for an exclusive arrangement, and I take that to mean that you would be willing to duplicate the same agreement with any other broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             So, if every broadcaster who enters into such an agreement with you obligates you to use best efforts to use AudioVision, then it is tied up.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             MS McLAUGHLIN:  In actual fact, the memorandum of understanding that you have was our best effort to work out a good deal for NBRS.  I don't believe that CTV would like to be held to that, and it hasn't‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             It is a non‑binding clause.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Then, as a safeguard that there not be any undue preference for descriptive video companies‑‑ all producers would be given the same chance‑‑ would you be willing to not enforce your rights under Clause 8 of the MOU, or in the final agreement to eliminate that clause?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             MR. WESEEN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             Rick, would you like to comment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             MR. BRACE:  Yes, absolutely.  Our only concern is that the quality of the descriptive video be top‑notch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             The contribution to the Canadian Television Fund‑‑ can you tell me what is the mechanism for paying into the fund, and exactly how the funds will flow?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I'm sorry, the fund for the‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  It is Clause 14 of your MOU, and also paragraph 47 of your supplementary brief.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             You are talking about, during the initial term of the arrangement with CTV, all programming fees payable to CTV will be directed to the Canadian Television Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Our interpretation is that the money that would be negotiated for the differential cost for the programming that they are going to provide us in the new described format, instead of us paying that to CTV, we would pay it directly to the CTF, and give them an accounting of those payments as we go through‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Give CTV an accounting of the payments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             Now I will move on to the role of The Accessible Channel in the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             One technical point to clarify before that is, at paragraph 28 of your supplementary brief‑‑ and you also talked about this in your opening statement‑‑ how the sighted and the vision impaired can have a shared experience of watching TV, because of the programming‑‑ or how The Accessible Channel would provide its service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             Why can't a sighted person watch the video described program through S.A.P. along with the vision impaired person?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             MS NOBEL:  Perhaps I could start the answer to this question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             Basically, because it is very rarely carried.  Only 26 percent of the programming that has been mandated by the Commission is going through the S.A.P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             What happens is, I go to watch something that I understand is going to be described, and I activate the S.A.P., and it's not there, because the BDU is not carrying the feed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             What is the difference between what The Accessible Channel will be showing on‑screen versus what ExpressVu shows on the screen of their‑‑ and I'm sorry for the lack of a better term‑‑ omnibus described video channel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             MS NOBEL:  ExpressVu has been one of the very excellent BDUs that does carry a lot of described programming.  They would show what is currently available, but, with The Accessible Channel, there would be much more available that would be shown than what is currently available on ExpressVu.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             Unfortunately, even as dependable as Bell ExpressVu tends to be, they are still sometimes not carrying things that they are expected to carry, or things that are in their schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             So it is still very much hit‑and‑miss, whereas‑‑ the hope is that when you turn on The Accessible Channel, and you have an audio schedule of what is going to be described, it is going to be there for everyone to enjoy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             MR. MacDONALD:  You are also looking at it being available to so many people who, right now, obviously, don't or cannot get it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             And knowing that it's there, the one‑stop shopping, if you want to say that, to have that available, it gives people the choice to say, "I want to watch it here," or, "I want to go over to Global and watch their feed by using my S.A.P. control," if they so choose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             But this makes it so that nobody has to worry about that menu or any other potential problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What do you think of the idea of having the other BDUs do what ExpressVu is doing, which is dedicating one channel that the vision impaired can access without S.A.P.?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             MR. STUBBS:  If I may, Bell ExpressVu doesn't dedicate a channel to description.  They have 50 that are‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11730             You have to navigate through there to find out which ones describe and which ones don't.  Some don't carry program audio if there isn't description.  Some carry the regular program if description is unavailable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11731             So it is very much hit‑and‑miss, depending on which channel you get to, and you have to navigate through 50 channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11732             MR. MacDONALD:  If I may, a lot of programming, if you were to ask a vision restricted person in any capacity what shows are described in audio and what shows are closed captioned for the hearing impaired, they will be able to name off many shows, I am sure, that they know of due to the fact that the show is sponsored by tags that you get.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11733             If you have ever noticed, the signifier for audio description is a small, little banner that appears before the show, which, again, doesn't really allow the vision impaired audience to have any clue that even said show is described.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11734             MR. STUBBS:  We showed it in the video, and there is still an issue with the cable broadcasters on that set‑top box and the navigating that you must go through with the remote.  It gets pretty extreme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11735             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  That actually leads me to the next question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11736             I note all of the backlash arguments that have been raised by intervenors, and your replies to them.  One of them is that maybe the resources, say, into this channel would be better spent on improving the existing services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11737             For example, why not improve S.A.P.?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11738             I can't remember whether it was Strategic Inc. or whether it was the Stubbs study that identified the three main problems, and the one that came up as the number one problem was having to access this programming through S.A.P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11739             MR. STUBBS:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11740             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  That is a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11741             Another problem identified was not passing through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11742             What would you say to the argument:  Why don't we use resources to enforce better the existing obligations of those who should provide and pass through, or improve the technology of accessing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11743             MR. STUBBS:  That would be absolutely fantastic, if that were possible‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11744             MS NOBEL:  No, John, it wouldn't, because‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11745             MS NOBEL:  What would happen is, then we would have an improvement in the existing service, but we wouldn't have all of the additional described programming that we need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11746             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So, Ms Nobel, your answer is, that still would not increase the amount of described video programming overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11747             MS NOBEL:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11748             MR. WESEEN:  I think our position would be that this provides the solution.  It fixes the problem, and we don't have to go to alternates, so why not just go directly to the end result, which is, on one channel, 100 percent described programming, all the time, 24/7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11749             MR. MacDONALD:  I am going to add my two cents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11750             This also allows a viewing of how many people are going to be introduced to audio description, who, unless they are in certain centres, right now may not even know that it's there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11751             This also allows those people who are vision impaired later in life, who have been working all their life, who just want to enjoy their TV, to have their television there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11752             This also allows the evidence that people are watching it.  Now, the S.A.P. isn't measurable.  Therefore, when you go to these manufacturers and say, "We need you to find a way to make it accessible"‑‑ "Why?"  "The vision impaired would like to use the S.A.P."  "Prove it."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11753             Again, also, something that we want to see is this audio description "sponsored by".  If that's what the broadcasters need to help them sell it, that's great, but the fact is, they are not going to do it unless there is tremendous evidence, or unless you were to say "Do it 100 percent, and make the S.A.P. fully accessible," and it would take a long time for that to ever happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11754             That's why something like this is a starting point, and all of those who are very against having one‑stop shopping need to say:  Okay.  Let's utilize this.  Let's go forward and take that evidence to show‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11755             If that's what they insist.  The option is still there for people to use S.A.P.  That's fine.  But at least now they will have the evidence that there are people watching.  There are people demanding this to be done, and this programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11756             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11757             That was more than two cents.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11758             MR. MacDONALD:  That's a whole dollar for you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11759             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Another backlash argument is, what would you say if the BDUs came in now, or ExpressVu, and said:  We have this accessible channel.  Can we roll out later?  Can we roll out a little bit less?  Can you give us a break on our obligations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11760             What do you say to that argument, that it could actually lower the expectation of the system for those who have obligations right now to provide DV?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11761             MR. WESEEN:  I am not sure why they should regress on obligations they already have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11762             Part of the reason that there is a need for The Accessible Channel is because those obligations are, on a regular basis, not being met.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11763             The blind and vision impaired community, with whom NBRS has a very close connection and hears from all the time, is extraordinarily frustrated by the fact that they can't access programming, and this is a solution to that, but it doesn't take away from the obligations to meet requirements that are already in place, and, potentially, to increase them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11764             This does provide a solution, and it is one‑stop shopping, as Kelly referred to it, but I don't think it should result in the regression of any obligations that already exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11765             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  The Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians intervened against this application, and I understand that they are a significant organization in the vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11766             What should I make of the fact that they intervened?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11767             MS NOBEL:  I would like to comment on that, and I know that that organization will be making a presentation, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11768             I believe we had about 150 submissions from blind and vision impaired Canadians, the overwhelming number of which were in support of this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11769             The Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians, I believe, has 228 members in Canada, and I understand that the Canadian Council of the Blind intervened in support, and they have more members than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11770             But I don't think this is a numbers game.  I think what you have to understand is that, generally speaking, the blind community is a relatively passive community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11771             Some years ago I sent out a Braille survey to 902 people between the ages of 18 and 30 to get some information, and I only got 22 responses, which was very disappointing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11772             This got over at least 150 responses from people who are blind, so I think that very strongly speaks to support for this channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11773             And while I would agree that 100 percent accessibility is the ideal, I believe that we have to take steps in that direction.  We have to prove to the community at large that description is something that is very valuable, which advertisers will receive revenue from, and that it is a good thing to do. Hopefully, broadcasters will get more on board, and as technology improves, and perhaps description becomes easier, it may become more cost‑effective.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11774             But, for now, as a person who enjoys watching television, and who is very frustrated by not being able to enjoy the programs to the same extent that my family members do, the increased description that this channel would provide is what really matters.  I think that the interventions from the blind community in support of this far outweigh any that are against.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11775             MR. MacDONALD:  If I may, you are also discussing, really, a social issue.  Going to work and being able to talk to people about what they saw on television, because it is such a social thing, is so important; to not get those little surprises, "Well, I particularly liked when he was in the parking garage and that‑‑ "

LISTNUM 1 \l 11776             "What are you talking about?  I just remember that break of music for four minutes, and I didn't know what was going on."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11777             The vision impaired community, for some people‑‑ and advocacy is great‑‑ you try something for a while, and if it doesn't work, you want to try something else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11778             The vision impaired community has a lot of concerns‑‑ and, again, for some people it's that worry of being ghettoized, or that worry that people are going to see them differently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11779             The only problem with that is, generally, it is a very small number of the community that obsesses and worries due to personal experience or issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11780             We are in a modern time.  We all realize that the women's movement, and so many other movements in the past, didn't go in leaps and bounds.  You try something, and if it doesn't work, you try a different approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11781             We are offering an immediate solution to a problem‑‑ or a start.  This is wonderful.  This is great, and it has to be, because the one thing that always sticks in my craw is:  What about those people who aren't speaking up, as Betty mentioned, who would like to go home at night and enjoy their television, or who are stuck in their home all day, wanting to enjoy their television, who have not been able to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11782             There are people who may have worked in a factory all their life and don't understand the issues of ghettoizing, and so on‑‑ the big concerns that a small majority of the vision impaired have, and that small amount of people just happen to be fairly vocal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11783             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11784             Turning to the focus group study, were the participants asked specifically if they would rather a segregated channel like this, or if they would prefer, say, to have S.A.P. improved?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11785             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The focus group followed a typical design, and that was to identify the elements of the service to see what they were interested in, and, finally, to test the service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11786             As part of that, it was very clear that the ideal situation would be that the Commission impose some sort of commitment‑‑ an enforceable commitment‑‑ on all BDUs to pass through all description; that every broadcaster in Canada be compelled to produce a second shadow channel, as it were, with 100 percent open description.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11787             That is the ideal scenario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11788             From that, we tested our concept, which was, obviously, not close to the ideal, but it was certainly enthusiastically received.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11789             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11790             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to have to ask you to come back.  We are going to take a 10‑minute break, and we will resume at 4:15 p.m.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1604 / Suspension à 1604

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1615 / Reprise à 1615

LISTNUM 1 \l 11791             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11792             Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11793             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I will go on to your business case now, and your wholesale rate of 20 cents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11794             I note that in section 8 of your Governance Agreement‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11795             NBRS is a non‑profit organization, and the licensee will be non‑profit.  But, then, under section 8 of the Governance Agreement, it is contemplated that a charitable foundation or trust fund will be established to receive the revenues of the licensee in excess of its requirements, and such funds will be used to advance the cause of providing increased access to media for persons with perceptual disabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11796             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11797             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11798             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And the access to media is not limited to television or broadcasting media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11799             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11800             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I note, and some of the intervenors have noted that, according to your financial statements, this organization will be profitable throughout the term.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11801             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11802             MR. WESEEN:  I think the projected surplus will be less than 5 percent of operating, and we thought that was a fair cushion, given some of the unknowns we had on some of the programming issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11803             I guess the comment I would make is that surplus is an issue that will be determined by the Board of The Accessible Channel, given that they would have a fiduciary responsibility to that entity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11804             But, in crafting this, the NBRS Board was fairly insistent that The Accessible Channel not be a drain on NBRS and its current obligation to make sure that VoicePrint is a viable option.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11805             So, in bringing this forward, the Board wanted to make sure that The Accessible Channel had sufficient funds in order to make sure that, if there was an overage, and it was a small one, there would be a mechanism to make sure that it stayed with media access issues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11806             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  There is also a trust deed that, like most standard trust deeds, gives the trustees virtually absolute discretion on how to invest and use the income derived from the trust fund, and under this trust agreement, the trust is settled by the licensee, and the first trustee is NBRS, and then the subsequent ones will be‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11807             There will be four trustees, three of whom will have no direct relationship with NBRS, but it is NBRS who will be part of the decision‑making of who these trustees are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11808             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11809             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And the beneficiary of the trust is to be any firm or company, including NBRS, that provides services and products designed to enable the greatest possible access to media commonly available to all Canadians for persons with perceptual difficulties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11810             But then you go on to another section of the trust deed, where it says:

~                     "The trustees shall hold the trust funds in trust for the beneficiaries and, in their absolute discretion, may either pay the whole or such of the net income derived from the trust fund, first to NBRS, and then to, or for such other beneficiaries as the trustees, in their absolute discretion, may determine."  (As read)


LISTNUM 1 \l 11811             My question is:  It sounds like, from the fees‑‑ from the revenues that you make‑‑ they can be directed‑‑ although it may be a small amount to start with‑‑ to any registered charity that has as its cause providing increased access to media, and NBRS has a say in who those organizations will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11812             Then I coupled that with all of the other sections, and also with the fact that the licensee will be profitable from day one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11813             If I were the subscriber paying, I would say:  Is this the lowest possible rate that I could be paying?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11814             That's my first question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11815             The second, broader, question is:  Should the social obligation of making media more accessible to the vision impaired be borne by television subscribers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11816             MR. WESEEN:  The intent of The Accessible Channel is to make programming more accessible.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11817             To the extent that there would be a surplus‑‑ and we didn't see it being a large one‑‑ the trust is intended to ensure that the purpose for which The Accessible Channel was established is maintained and that any surplus funds would be used for media access issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11818             That was the intent of having the trust there, to make sure that if there was any surplus, it would be used for the same purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11819             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  When your focus groups and studies were done, were those who were surveyed told‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11820             When they made the decision, "I will pay somewhere between 50 cents and 75 cents," were they told that any excess revenue would actually go to a charitable organization?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11821             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I can address the question from the focus group perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11822             In fact, the idea for the trust came out of the focus groups.  One of the concerns was about any group, any organization, having a large profit based on a service that they believe should be mandatory and throughout the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11823             There was concern about low cost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11824             The question came up:  When you are putting together a budget, you make your best efforts, but you have to build in a contingency.  What should we do with that contingency?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11825             So, from the community itself, the issue was born that, if that money went into a trust that dealt with media access issues, then they would feel that they were being really well served by the organization and this proposal, in its entirety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11826             I would ask Duncan McKie to speak about the measurement with the general population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11827             MR. McKIE:  I would only add that, although we didn't address the issue of "What would you do with an overage, if this non‑profit corporation saw a surplus at the end of the year," which, I think, would go far beyond any poll, we did make it clear to these folks that they were being asked to underwrite the operations of a channel that they would normally, themselves, not use, and I think they were very forthcoming in their support.  I doubt very much that they would have any concerns about how that money would be spent, given the intent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11828             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Would you be willing, if licensed, to do away with the trust fund?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11829             The licensee is a non‑charitable organization, so, if you don't have that trust fund organization, and if you have a surplus, I assume that it would go back to programming, or to reducing the subscriber rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11830             Would you agree to a restructure like that to eliminate the trust fund?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11831             MR. WESEEN:  I guess the comment I would make is that the proposed structure doesn't allow NBRS to receive funds directly from The Accessible Channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11832             We would probably have to look at the consequences for NBRS on a business case basis, because the trust was set up to help NBRS understand that we weren't going to have to bear the cost of running The Accessible Channel in addition to the existing obligations of VoicePrint.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11833             We would be prepared to get back to you at the reply stage with a comment on that, if that is acceptable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11834             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Or, if you could suggest some safeguards, so that, the licensee being a non‑profit organization, any excess funds would be put back into the channel to improve its programming or reduce subscriber fees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11835             MR. WESEEN:  Or perhaps limit it to broadcast media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11836             You are talking about something a little broader, I guess, than just narrowing the focus of where the moneys would be spent, in terms of media access issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11837             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, I‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11838             MR. WESEEN:  I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11839             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I would like it to stay in the channel, because that is what the subscribers would be paying for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11840             MR. WESEEN:  We will address that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11841             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  This was also a point raised in the interventions, and it is a conclusion that we also arrived at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11842             Your subscriber projections seem to be quite optimistic.  They assume that in the fourth year there would be almost full rollout of digital services, projecting a take‑up rate to 90 percent of the subscriber base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11843             On what basis are you making that projection?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11844             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We reviewed industry literature and publications on the anticipated rollout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11845             What we are talking about is a licensing term that anticipates perhaps 2008.  So we are talking about, by 2011, there being 90 percent of the population accessible‑‑ or receiving their signals on cable by digital.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11846             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Right now we have calculated that your Canadian program expenditure requirement, CPE, accounts for about 43 percent of the total revenues over the seven‑year licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11847             Would you be prepared to accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11848             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11849             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You would accept that even if your subscription projection were too high, and it turned out to be lower?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11850             MS McLAUGHLIN:  As a percent of revenues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11851             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11852             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11853             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What efforts would you make to increase the advertising portion of your revenues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11854             I also note that, in paragraph 72 of your supplementary brief, you are saying:  "Selling advertising in the non‑simulcast portion of the schedule."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11855             Firstly, I am not clear on what that means, "Selling advertising in the non‑simulcast portion of the schedule."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11856             I don't know what that means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11857             Secondly, what are your efforts to increase advertising revenue?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11858             MS McLAUGHLIN:  To go back to how we are going to be carrying a portion, and hopefully a large portion of prime time, we will be taking programs that are currently available in a described format on other broadcasters, and, as I mentioned earlier, just a rough calculation says that is 16 hours out of 28 hours of prime time.  And we will take them in their entirety, an unaltered signal, which includes the commercials being passed through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11859             For the remainder, which we will be actually describing, we will be doing the same thing, inasmuch as we are going to provide the broadcaster with a described version of it.  They will insert their commercials and they will send it back to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11860             Only in the programming that we purchase from sources like The Narrative Network and other U.S. sources and Canadian sources, which maybe are older, will we be inserting any commercial time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11861             In terms of the second part of the question, what efforts will we be making, the real value to having a commercial on the schedule is that it, too, is described.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11862             Not to pick on any particular advertiser, but a TELUS commercial that is broadcast with their wonderful graphics and animals, which is a very distinctive brand to all of us, means absolutely nothing to the vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11863             So we don't anticipate, unless there is an increase in the description of those ads, that there is any value to an advertiser to place that commercial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11864             Would they pay for it?  I don't think so, not initially.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11865             Mr. Weseen mentioned that we had talked to the ACA, and we have, and they are on record in the Commercial Television Policy Hearing of making a commitment to have their members spend more time and invest more in the closed captioning of commercials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11866             In a similar manner, I was assured that they would be looking at description, but it is a ramp‑up, it is not something they are considering, so it wouldn't be immediate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11867             Our view of what the advertising would be initially, and for the first few years, is that it would be more along the lines of sponsorship, the Television Guide, the audible Television Guide, and "This program brought to you by"‑‑ and the event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11868             But, again, if we could possibly compel advertisers, in some way, to describe their commercials, then we would hope that we could do more.  But to budget on that would be, perhaps, dangerous.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11869             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I want to go back to the wholesale rate of 20 cents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11870             After we eliminate the portion that would be for charitable donation, I am wondering if you could lower your wholesale rate by 5 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11871             Could you re‑work your numbers to see if the wholesale rate could be lowered?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11872             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Could we get back to you on that in reply?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11873             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11874             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That would be great.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11875             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Your answers to some of our deficiency questions were very clear, in that you needed both mandatory basic status and a regulated pass‑through fee to have the business case.  Is that still true?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11876             MR. WESEEN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11877             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So a Category 1 or a Category 2 licence would be meaningless.  It is not something that you would accept.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11878             MR. WESEEN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11879             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you very much for your time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11880             Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11881             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11882             Commissioner Cram‑‑ who is seated to your left.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11883             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am over here.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11884             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Number one, with Mr. LaRose on your Board, you are not going to have a problem getting programming from APTN, I am assuming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11885             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11886             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to try and figure out what I would see in prime time.  Would I pretty well assume that it would be the popular Canadian and American shows?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11887             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11888             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If I were a broadcaster‑‑ and I think that Mr. Brace is very smart‑‑ I would see this as a great idea, because I would simply not order what I thought to be my popular shows described, and you guys would do it for free for him, and he would then have partially met his requirements that we make him do in terms of described video.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11889             So, in a perverse way, it seems to me that we are not moving the system ahead in terms of the goal, which is more described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11890             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I will start to answer that, and then I will throw it to Mr. Brace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11891             If Mr. Brace, or any of the Canadian broadcasters at this point in time, had an option to buy the U.S. programs in a described format, then perhaps what you are saying would be a way to look at it; not perhaps "the" way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11892             But, in reality, because the obligations on U.S. producers and broadcasters have been removed, the production at source‑‑ and I am calling the U.S. source here‑‑ of described programming has declined.  It is practically not available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11893             One of the original exercises that we went through in investigating the possibility for this service was to really ascertain how much of the programming Canadian broadcasters were putting on that was being developed in the U.S., which was actually available in a described format and not being picked up, and the answer was, practically, zero.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11894             There isn't an obligation, and while there is, we believe, a compelling business case, and other broadcasters, like the BBC, believe there is a secondary market for distribution for this type of programming, in reality, it is not being tapped.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11895             We would be increasing description of what is arguably the highest demand programming in the system, and if there is another way, we certainly haven't been able to find it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11896             MR. BRACE:  I think the other thing, Commissioner Cram, is that we will still have a good portion of our schedule that is not carried on The Accessible Channel, and this, in no way, relieves us of the obligation, in our view‑‑ and that is our position‑‑ from carrying on with not only the obligations we have now, but any that may be deemed appropriate as we move forward into licence renewal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11897             Although it may be the case for programming carried there, it seems to me that it is additive.  So we would get a benefit, undoubtedly, and hopefully other broadcasters would, too, but in no way should it relieve us of the obligations that we have currently and in the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11898             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, then, you will be considering for your renewal suggesting that we wouldn't count the described video that you receive from this service, if it is licensed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11899             MR. BRACE:  I would suggest that, because 100 percent of our schedule will not be carried on this service, we will still have the obligation, so I think we are saying the same thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11900             Indeed, you may, in your wisdom, elect to actually increase that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11901             To me, it is an elegant way of dealing with a problem that we have currently, because technology is an impediment, and I think that, going forward, it is an elegant way of actually being incremental and being additive and getting even further down the road than we would be, even if we say that by 2010 the S.A.P. must be made available, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11902             It seems that we have been spinning our tires.  We are describing several shows at this point in time, and it is disappointing that they are not making it to the people who would enjoy them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11903             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are going to, I think, Ms McLaughlin‑‑ well, the panel‑‑ it was said that you were going to put all of these extra hours in described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11904             But, again in a perverse way, it is going to be American programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11905             If you are talking about the top 10 programs in Canada, except for last week, they are normally all American programs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11906             MS NOBEL:  There isn't any specification, at least in our minds, in terms of what will formulate that top programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11907             Our concern here is to represent in the schedule what consumers in this community want.  If that happens to be Canadian programming, then that will be there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11908             Obviously, we will be following audience measurement, and we will be seeing what those programs are.  There is an opportunity for any program to appear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11909             There have been times, as you well know, that Canadian programming breaks into the top 20.  It is not something we could predict.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11910             We expect that we will be following the interests and the desires of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11911             I might add that all of the description we are doing is 100 percent Cancon.  I would presume, as it is a creative process, that it is eligible.  So, in that sense, we are actually adding Cancon to the system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11912             MR. WESEEN:  Commissioner, if I could add, when I joined the Board at NBRS, someone who was on the Board at the time, Geoff Eden, was trying to describe to me why access was important, and he talked about water cooler conversations.  I think that Kelly referred to that earlier, where, the morning after a show airs, people are talking about it, whether it is a Canadian show, or whether it is a U.S.‑produced show, because it's popular.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11913             And there is an exclusionary piece because the blind and vision impaired community can't enjoy it to the same extent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11914             Geoff's comment was:  I want to be part of the water cooler conversations, without exclusion, and that's why description is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11915             That's one of the reasons, I think, you have heard NBRS talk about description on a consistent basis for quite a period of time.  We do need to improve access to this, and it is important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11916             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hear you, I just think that the benefits of something that is being paid for by Canadian subscribers should go to Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11917             I have difficulty seeing us aiding foreign programmers, who make no contribution to this system, when it is the Canadian subscriber that would be paying for your existence, if you were licensed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11918             So I am going to ask you to come up with a percentage of that 500, or however many hours you are going to do in video description, of Canadian programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11919             MS NOBEL:  Commissioner Cram, I would like to comment on that.  For over 25 years I have been a cable subscriber, and I have been paying the same rates as anyone else pays for cable, and yet I have not been able to enjoy television programming, whether it's American or Canadian, to the same extent that all of the other cable subscribers have, and I have had no reduction in cost.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11920             As part of my own intervention and as part of many interventions that I read, it was very clear that people in Canada would be willing to support a monthly fee of 20 cents so that I could enjoy television in the same way that they already do, regardless of the content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11921             MR. MacDONALD:  I would like to add a comment, if I may, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11922             If there is a supply, and the demand is obviously asking for certain things in the community, which is already limited to choice, to where we can go and what we can see and enjoy in audio description, and if Britain happens to be more ahead of us, we should be very cautious in saying, "Well, it's not Canadian."


LISTNUM 1 \l 11923             Yes, that may be true, and I am all for it, I enjoy some great Canadian programs myself, but, if it is a case of you are not cutting it or not bothering, then what happens?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11924             The choices are already far too limited for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11925             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We already tell people how much Cancon they have to have, and we do it with everybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11926             What about prime time?  How much Cancon are you going to have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11927             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I believe that in our application it is 50 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11928             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But that is 6:00 p.m. to midnight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11929             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11930             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You are just going to have 50 percent in prime time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11931             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11932             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It sounds to me, Mr. Weseen, that your whole idea is to build up described video programming, and build the inventory essentially, build the taste, but at the end of the day, visually impaired people want to be able to watch the same channels as people with vision, and have all of the programming described.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11933             Have I got it right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11934             MR. WESEEN:  That's part of the philosophy, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11935             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about a one‑term licence, and then you go out of business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11936             Because you would have built up the inventory and the taste.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11937             MR. WESEEN:  Could we find a complete solution to the problems we have described in one term?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11938             I guess that would be the question, and I don't know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11939             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You see, we are doing a balancing act here.  There is the taste of Canadians that they want a very small basic, and if we license you, we will be essentially taxing subscribers to promote a social purpose, which we have promoted before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11940             But the question then is:  Is this a forever deal, or, once we get the kickstart, what is the use of the continuation of the channel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11941             MR. WESEEN:  I think that, probably, my response would be that that would be something we would have to judge in Years 5 through 7, to see where we were at, and the Commission could deal with that on renewal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11942             MR. MacDONALD:  If I may, that would also depend‑‑ I feel that your judgment would be best made by what the vision impaired community does with it as it comes on and the demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11943             And if the advocacy groups go forward demanding more access, more programming, that is the only time that that kind of thing could be decided.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11944             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Ms Nobel, did you have something to say?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11945             MS NOBEL:  I was just going to say that, if we could be guaranteed 100 percent description, and accessibility to those channels through the S.A.P., which is currently not accessible, and if we could be guaranteed that the BDUs would carry it, then, if this channel were to go out of business in 7 years or 14 years, that would be fine, because we would have achieved our goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11946             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11947             Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11948             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11949             Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11950             MS DIONNE:  I only have three questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11951             Earlier in your discussions with Commissioner del Val, it was agreed that you would file letters of interest from additional suppliers of programming than the CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11952             When would you be prepared to file those letters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11953             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I have to make sure that we have every single one of them here, so we will hopefully file them by reply, but, if not, by the end of the process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11954             If that is okay, we will have them brought from Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11955             MS DIONNE:  By the end of the hearing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11956             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11957             MS DIONNE:  I would like to confirm that you agree to having a condition of licence to implement your Canadian content requirements of 50 percent from 6:00 p.m. to midnight, and 60 percent through the broadcast day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11958             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11959             MS DIONNE:  Could you give a minimum amount of description that would be created by other described video providers than AudioVision Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11960             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I think we have agreed to provide that for reply, or, at least, by the end of the process.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11961             So, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11962             MS DIONNE:  At reply, or at the end of the process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11963             MS McLAUGHLIN:  I think we could do that at reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11964             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11965             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weseen, thank you very much to you and your panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11966             I will give you an opportunity now to summarize your application, and to give us your pitch for why we should license this service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11967             MR. WESEEN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11968             In closing, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, our application is for one channel among the hundreds currently available to sighted Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11969             Members of the vision impaired community now pay for cable or satellite, but receive little in return.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11970             The Accessible Channel will provide them with a user‑friendly means of experiencing television‑‑ one channel in a 500‑channel universe that vision impaired Canadians can call their own, and the price for that is 20 cents per month.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11971             The Commission has asked Applicants to provide evidence that their service is of exceptional importance to the achievement of Broadcasting Act objectives.  We believe that The Accessible Channel meets this high standard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11972             Despite efforts to date, there is little described video programming available.  What is available is plagued by serious accessibility problems.  Either it is not being passed through by the BDUs, or the means of accessing what is available is simply not user friendly for blind and vision impaired Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11973             Research clearly indicates that the majority of Canadians see the value in paying much more than what we have proposed for the greater good of allowing the vision impaired community to experience television on an equal footing with, and at the same time as their families and friends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11974             We have a partnership with CTV through which we will fully explore bringing quality content to this channel, and we fully expect that this will be a beacon for discussions with other broadcasters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11975             Madam Chair and Commissioners, NBRS is proposing what the Broadcasting Act has established as a key principle:  to make programming available to persons with disabilities, as resources become available for that purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11976             NBRS has a track record of successfully initiating and operating services of this nature.  We have the will to bring this network to blind and vision impaired Canadians, and we have identified a reasonable and prudent method for ensuring that funds are available to support The Accessible Channel.  We believe that we have presented the Commission with a reasoned, realistic and well researched business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11977             The Accessible Channel will act as a nexus for described programming, not only providing open description every hour of the day, but also directing audiences to all described programming that is available anywhere in the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11978             In this way, the statutory obligation that we all share, that is, to make television programming accessible to vision impaired Canadians, will remain just that, a shared obligation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11979             This is about improving access, this is not about lessening the obligations that have already been mandated by the Commission.  Broadcasters and BDUs, alike, must be required to continue their efforts to provide and pass through significantly more described programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11980             It took the system 12 years to reach a mandated level of 90 percent closed captioning.  The vision impaired community, a community that has been woefully underserved and consistently excluded, should not have to wait for that level of description.  This is a key part of the solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11981             We respectfully submit that what we need is the regulatory vision to permit this channel to be launched and to succeed.  Accordingly, we would seek the Commission's approval of our application, and the requested mandatory distribution order.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11982             We thank you for your time and for the opportunity to present to you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11983             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weseen, and the rest of your panel, thank you very much for your participation this afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11984             We will take five minutes, to allow for the change of panels, but, Madam Secretary, I would like you to call the next presenter, please.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11985             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Nous procéderons avec l'article 4, qui est des demandes présentées par Avis de Recherche et All Points Bulletin Incorporated, visant à obtenir une distribution obligatoire au service numérique de base des entreprises nationales de programmation pour les canaux spécialisés appelés Avis de Recherche et All Points Bulletin.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11986             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11987             You may begin your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11988             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourselves for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11989             You will have 10 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

*PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11990             M. GÉRACITANO:  Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11991             Madame la Président, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, membres du personnel, je suis Vincent Géracitano, Président fondateur d'Avis de recherche inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11992             M'accompagnent aujourd'hui: à ma droite, monsieur Bernie Corrigan, commissaire adjoint, Affaires publiques et des Services de communications de la GRC; et à ma gauche, Inspecteur Paul Chablo de la Division des communications du Service de police de la Ville de Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11993             Évidemment, ce n'est pas monsieur Corrigan, qui est ici à ma droite.  Il s'excuse, mais il a dû quitter pour une urgence aux headquarters, au bureau chef.  Alors, pour parler de la part de la GRC, c'est madame Natalie Deschênes qui fera l'allocution de monsieur Corrigan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11994             Je tiens, tout d'abord, à remercier le Conseil de l'occasion qu'il m'offre, aujourd'hui, de présenter Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin, et de résumer brièvement les points forts de leur demande de reconnaissance du fait qu'ils servent l'intérêt public national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11995             Le Conseil a choisi d'étudier notre demande en même temps que celles qui ont été déposées par des services analogiques, suite à l'adoption de son nouveau cadre de réglementation de la migration au numérique et en même temps que certaines demandes d'attribution de nouvelles licences de service numérique.  Je tiens, cependant, à préciser que notre demande est de nature différente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11996             Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin sont des services numériques de catégorie 2 déjà autorisés, dont l'un est en activité depuis 2004, et ce qu'ils demandent au Conseil, c'est de reconnaître qu'ils servent l'intérêt public national et de leur accorder, en conséquence, une distribution obligatoire au service numérique de base.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11997             La mission de ces deux services est simple: c'est d'offrir aux organismes chargés d'appliquer la loi au Canada un outil médiatique pour obtenir de l'information du public.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11998             Cette mission, Avis de recherche l'accomplit en présentant quotidiennement des milliers d'avis de recherche relatif à des criminels en fuite, des personnes disparues ou en liberté illégale.  Cela se fait en vertu de protocoles d'entente avec les corps policiers nationaux, provinciaux, régionaux et municipaux.  Ce sont eux qui déterminent le contenu de ces avis, comme la période où il est opportun de les diffuser, et cela en respectant des normes strictes de protection des renseignements nominatifs de la vie privée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11999             Nous complétons cette programmation par la présentation de capsules de prévention de la criminalité, de la fraude, des accidents et des incendies, ainsi que d'autres messages favorisant la sécurité publique, capsules et messages produits en collaboration avec ou par des organismes reconnus d'intérêt public.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12000             Pour vous donner une meilleure idée de ce que cela donne à l'écran, nous avons préparé un bref vidéo suivant.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo


LISTNUM 1 \l 12001             M. GÉRACITANO:  Madame la présidente, depuis son entrée en ondes, Avis de Recherche a démontré très concrètement sa capacité de servir l'intérêt public et d'améliorer la sécurité publique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12002             Chaque jour nous recevons confirmation que les Avis de recherche diffusés sur notre chaîne contribuent à l'arrestation de criminels en fuite, à mettre un terme à des fraudes, à retrouver des enfants ou des personnes âgées disparues, à inciter des personnes en liberté illégale à se rendre aux autorités.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12003             En quelques années, Avis de recherche est devenu un outil de première importance dans la réalisation de la mission d'intérêt public que le gouvernement de tout niveau confie aux corps policiers ou aux autres organismes chargés d'appliquer la Loi au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12004             Mais je ne veux pas parler plus longtemps au nom et en lieu de place de ces partenaires de notre chaîne, alors je leur laisse donc la parole.  Monsieur Chablo.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12005             M. CHABLO:  Oui.  Madam President and members of the Commission, since its becoming to existence in 2004, the relationship between this television chain and SPVM, which is the Montreal Police Service, has a collaboration which I would say is very profitable to the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12006             We have been working together in various public interest shows and since it has been on, we've worked with the researching or the collecting of missing persons, searching for missing persons, wanted persons who have committed criminal acts and, of course, as of 2005, we have ensured the collaboration with Info Crime, one of our information centres which collects information by various crimes that were committed either on the Montreal territory, in collaboration also with Corrections Canada when we are looking for people who have escaped from prison or have not respected their parole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12007             Enfin aussi, depuis 2006, la SPVM et ADA travaillent conjointement au développement des chroniques de prévention portant sur les différentes formes de criminalité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12008             Avis de recherche est un outil de communication avec la population de première importance pour la SPVM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12009             A lot of investigations that were carried out by our organization were solved because of the information and the collaboration we received with this television chain and we are very appreciative for that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12010             Avis de recherche donne au public et aux citoyens canadiens la possibilité de supporter le travail des policiers et policières partout au Canada, pas juste dans une province du Québec et non pas juste sur le territoire montréalais.  Il s'agit d'un média qui nous offre des services de visibilité uniques.  Avis de recherche aussi a pris l'engagement de consacrer chaque année 20 pour cent de ses revenus d'abonnement au financement des capsules de prévention en collaboration avec les différents corps policiers, ce qui favorise l'accomplissement de notre mission et accroît encore davantage la sécurité de l'ensemble de population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12011             Our collaboration with this television chain is undeniably of public interest and of public service which helps make society a lot more secure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12012             Merci beaucoup.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12013             MS DESCHENES:  Crime affects all of us directly or indirectly, madam Chairman.  The police, however, cannot prevent or solve all crimes in isolation.  The police work with the public and our communities in order to solve crimes afflicting them and prevent other criminal acts from occurring.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12014             Media are an important part of this community work.  Collaboration between the media, the public and the police have proven to be successful in increasing the chances that a criminal will be apprehended or that a missing child will be returned to his or her family.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12015             As my colleague of the Montreal Police Service previously said, Avis de recherche has been instrumental in assisting the police of the Province of Quebec to locate missing and wanted persons, proving that it can be an essential tool in the accomplishment of the public interest mission of those police services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12016             Having a similar program of exceptional importance available from coast to coast offered as a basic subscription service will contribute without a doubt to a better, more secure Canadian society and, therefore, to serve national public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12017             At the current time, no other media in Canada even comes close to profiling these types of issues as frequently as All Points Bulletin proposes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12018             Combined with previously mentioned features of educational nature, about prevention, the programming proposed by Avis de recherche and All Points Bulletins will increase the likelihood that more crime will be solved and prevented.  This means that fewer people in this country will become victims of crime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12019             That is why the RCMP is extremely enthusiastic that this proposal can make our homes and our community safer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12020             Thank you.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12021             M. GÉRACITANO:  Merci, madame Deschênes.  Merci, messieurs, madame.  Madame la présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, vous disposez désormais du sort d'Avis de recherche et the All Points Bulletin.  Ou bien vous reconnaissez que ces deux services servent un intérêt public national comme nous en sommes absolument convaincus et vous leur accordez, en conséquence, le statut de service 9(1)(h) ou bien Avis de recherche fermera ses portes et All Points Bulletin ne verra jamais le jour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12022             Il n'y a pas de solution intermédiaire possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12023             We currently must pay our only distributor Videotron upwards of $15,000.00 per month for distribution.  That amount will soon escalate to over $50,000.00 per month.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12024             We provide a helpful service to the community and yet, must pay for doing so.  Although it sounds perverse, it is our reality.  Even to follow the Canadian distributors would be willing to take our services in similar financing conditions, the amount they would charge us would be in the millions of dollars per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12025             These amounts will be unaffordable for a public interest service such as ours.  As such, it would mean the end of All Points Bulletin and Avis de recherche and all Canadians will be deprived of a true public interest service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12026             There is one last thing I would like to mention, madam President and this comes from the heart.  I embarked on this mission seven years ago, seven eight years have I had a vision that would make our country a lot safer by providing this type of service.  I have almost single‑handedly brought the service to the level it is at here today.  I cannot do it alone and I will therefore ask for your help, it is the only way for me to continue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12027             Obviously, I am available for any questions that you may have and I will be more than happy to answer them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12028             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Géracitano and to your colleagues, thank you very much for your presentation here this afternoon.  We have no questions for you.  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12029             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 5 on the agenda, which is an application by Faith and Spirit Media Inc. for the mandatory distribution on digital basic of the national specialty programming undertaking known as VisionTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12030             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Bill Roberts who will introduce his colleagues.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12031             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. Roberts, please introduce your colleagues and you have ten minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

*PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12032             MR. ROBERTS:  Thank you.  Good afternoon madam Chair, members of the Commission and CRTC staff.  My name is Bill Roberts, and I am the President and CEO of the S‑Vox Trust.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12033             We are appearing today on behalf of Canada's multi‑faith specialty service VisionTv, applying for digital basic carriage via a distribution order under section 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12034             With me today is our Chief Financial Officer Jane Macnaughton and our General Counsel Brant Kostandoff.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12035             Commissioners, digital basic carriage is essential to the fulfilment of VisionTV's mandate as Canada's multi‑faith service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12036             As far back as 1983, in its first Religious Broadcasting Licensing Policy, the Commission determined that a broadly‑based programming service devoted to the diverse religious beliefs of Canadians should be a key component of the Canadian Broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12037             The significance of that multi‑faith approach to religious broadcasting was re‑enforced by the Commission in its 1993 Religious Broadcasting Policy.  Commenting on religious services on basic cable, the Commission acknowledged the exceptional importance of VisionTV and stated:

~                     "This type of balanced service should be available to the largest possible number of Canadians."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12038             The most effective means to achieve that policy objective is to grant VisionTV's application for digital basic carriage.  As part of the basic package, VisionTV provides opportunity for the public to be exposed to differing views on religion and assures that a balance of faith perspectives is available to all Canadians.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12039             This is the approach to religious broadcasting the Commission determined was appropriate for Canada in the 1980s.  It was confirmed as the right approach in the 1990s.  In our submission, it continues to be the right approach in the digital age of this new millennium.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12040             VisionTV has always been offered to Canadians as part of the basic package.  We therefore view this as a status quo application.  Approval will allow Vision TV to continue its service to Canadians without disruption to BDUs or consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12041             I would like to clarify that we are not requesting a change to VistionTV's conditions of licence.  The notice for this hearing suggests we are proposing a change to VitionTV's Canadian program expenditure requirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12042             In fact, the implementation of the current condition results in VisionTV investing more than 100 per cent of subscriber revenue in Canadian programming.  We remain committed to that outstanding level of investment in Canadian content.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12043             As Canada's multi‑faith channel, VisionTV makes an exceptional contribution to the Canadian broadcasting system and to the achievement of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  Its broad distribution should continue to be a policy imperative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12044             Rather than telling you about our many contributions, it may be better to show you a sample of the variety of multi‑faith and multi‑cultural programming offered by VisionTV.

‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 12045             MR. ROBERTS:  What we hope this video conveys is the quality and diversity of VisionTV's program schedule.  We celebrate all aspects of faith, but we're not shy about taking on controversial issues as well.  Our multi‑faith service delivers balanced content and caters to audiences often ignored by commercial undertakings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12046             For those who prefer numbers over pictures, here are some statistics that will also help tell the VisionTV story:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12047             Eighteen hundred hours of original content, produced by Canada's faith communities, are broadcast on VisionTV each year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12048             Fifty‑two per cent of people surveyed say VisionTV has the best religious and faith programming, four times more than the nearest competitor.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12049             VisionTV's Canadian content exhibition at 65 per cent of the broadcast day and Canadian program expenditure at 50 per cent of prior year's revenue are among the highest in the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12050             Ninety‑five per cent of Canadians agree that diversity and tolerance are values important to Canadian identity and 92 per cent agree that older and less mobile individuals should have access to their faith at home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12051             Perhaps most relevant to this proceeding, 85 per cent of Canadians agree that VisionTV should continue to be part of the basic service with 82 per cent confirming that twelve cents per month is a reasonable price for VisionTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12052             The pictures and the numbers don't lie.  VisionTV exceeds the CRTC requirements for digital basic status.  A mandatory distribution order is both appropriate and necessary to ensure the continued success of Canada's multi‑faith broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12053             I would like to call upon my colleague, Jane Mcnaughton, to comment on the importance of basic carriage to VisionTV's operating model.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12054             MS MacNAUGHTON:  Commissioners, more than 99 per cent of VisionTV's subscribers presently receive the service as part of the basic package.  And 90 per cent of revenue comes from two sources: subscriber fees, and the sale of airtime to faith communities.  Those revenue sources depend on  household penetration remaining at a near universal level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12055             At 12 cents, VisionTV's wholesale rate for basic carriage is among the lowest of the analog specialties and falls just below the midpoint of the range authorized for other mandatory channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12056             Without continued basic distribution, it is extraordinarily difficult to imagine a scenario in which VisionTV will remain financially viable while still achieving its mandate as Canada's multi‑faith channel.  As a service not affiliated with any BDU or integrated media company, and operating on what by industry standards are extraordinarily low profit margins, VisionTV is in a more precarious position than other services during the transition to a fully digital environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12057             Our projections show that without basic carriage, revenue will drop by almost 75 per cent during the five‑year period after cable BDUs transition to digital distribution, and VisionTV will fall into annual deficits levelling off at approximately $2 million per year in net losses.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12058             VisionTV also has some of the highest requirements with respect to investment in Canadian programming and exhibition of Canadian content.  But without basic carriage, VisionTV will spend $41 million less on Canadian programs during the same period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12059             Even if VisionTV could mitigate the drastic reduction in revenue that would result from being moved out of the basic package, it will not be able to sustain the same high level of investment in Canadian programming, or support the broadcast of a diverse program schedule reflecting a wide range of faith perspectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12060             In order to maintain a sustainable operating model and to fulfil its nature of service, basic carriage is essential to the future of VisionTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12061             MR. ROBERTS:  For almost 20 years, VisionTV has been setting the standard for diversity in television.  No broadcaster in Canada is better equipped to serve the spiritual and cultural mosaic of our country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12062             Diversity, tolerance and religious freedom are key elements of the Canadian identity;  VisionTV serves an essential function in promoting these values.  Canada's multi‑faith service assures that Canadian perspectives relating to matters of faith are predominant in the religious programming available in our broadcasting system.  VisionTV provides balance and diversity in religious television, a unique Canadian solution to the challenges of single faith broadcasting in other jurisdictions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12063             We have faith in the future.  We think the Canadian broadcasting system should have faith too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12064             In granting digital basic carriage, you will enable VisionTV to fulfil its mandate as Canada's multi‑faith channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12065             Thank you for your consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12066             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Roberts and to your colleagues, thank you for your participation.  We have no questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12067             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12068             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Item 6 on the agenda, which is an application by Pelmorex Communications Inc. for the mandatory distribution on digital basic of the National specialty programming undertakings known as the "Weather Network and Météo Média.  Appearing for the applicant is monsieur Pierre Morissette who will introduce his colleagues.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 12069             THE SECRETARY:  Monsieur Morissette, please introduce your colleagues and you will then have ten minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

*PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12070             MR. MORISSETTE:  Thank you.  Madam Chair, vice‑chairs Arpin and French, members of the Commission and staff.  My name is Pierre Morisette and I am the president and CEO of Pelmorex Communications Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12071             With me today are to my left Luc Perrault, vice president affiliate and government relations and beside him, Sheryl Plouffe, news header for the Weather Network.  To my right are Paul Temple, senior vice president, Regulatory and Strategic Affairs and Alysia Charlton, our senior vice president and chief financial officer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12072             Thank you for this opportunity to make the case for digital basic carriage for the Weather Network and Météo Média.  In your Public Notice, the Commission outlined five criteria for digital basic carriage.  Here is how we meet each of them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12073             First, you say the applicant must demonstrate the exceptional importance of its service to the achievement of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  We accomplish this through three unique aspects of our service:  Our public safety mandate, our local programming to more than 1,200 communities and our 100 per cent Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12074             A key objective of the Broadcasting Act is fostering Canada's social political and economic aims.  One of the most fundamental political objectives of any country is safeguarding its citizens, something that has major social and economic benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12075             The Weather Network and Météo Média are exceptional as the only broadcasters to provide every local weather advisory watch and warning issued by Environment Canada.  We are the only broadcasters to make regional road safety information available 24 hours a day.  We now have agreements with the provinces of New Brunswick, Quebec and Ontario to issue targeted provincial warnings and we are happy to announce today that the province of Nova Scotia and the Yukon Territory are joining us too.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12076             Canadians depend on this information and it saves lives.  The Broadcasting Act also states that programming should be drawn from local, regional, national and international sources.  We are exceptional as the most local broadcaster in Canada serving 1,200 communities.  We are the only local media available in many towns and rural areas and we provide local information updated every ten minutes, 24‑7 to all of these communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12077             The quality and quantity of local programming that Météo Média and the Weather Network provide in Ottawa or in Vancouver is the same as we provided to Humboat, Saskatchewan or to the Moose Factory First Nations Community on James Bay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12078             MME PLOUFFE:  Votre deuxième critère est à l'effet que la programmation doit avoir une contribution importante à l'expression des valeurs canadiennes et qu'elle doit refléter les attitudes, les opinions, idées, valeurs et la créativité artistique canadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12079             Notre niveau de contenu canadien qui atteint 100 pour cent est exceptionnel.  Nous montrons le Canada aux Canadiens et nous contribuons à l'expression canadienne de façon unique et tangible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12080             Le troisième critère est que le demandeur doit contribuer à l'identité canadienne et à la souveraineté culturelle ainsi qu'à la diversité ethno culturelle et de desservir les personnes souffrant d'un handicap et mettre de l'avant la dualité linguistique.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12081             En ce qui concerne l'identité canadienne, nous mettons littéralement le Canada en vedette aux yeux des Canadiens à tous les moments de la journée.  L'approbation de cette demande nous permettra d'augmenter nos investissements en programmation à un niveau équivalent à 40 pour cent des revenus nets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12082             Concernant la diversité, nous avons un dossier qui a été le lauréat de nombreux prix tant à l'écran que derrière la caméra et nous sommes reconnus comme des leaders dans l'industrie de la radiodiffusion et dans le milieu canadien des affaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12083             Nous avons des pratiques reconnues dans l'établissement de relation et de collaboration avec les Canadiens souffrant d'un handicap.  Ils sont d'ailleurs parmi les intervenants les plus vocaux dans cette instance car ils sont ceux qui sont les plus vulnérables lors de conditions météorologiques difficiles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12084             Quant à la dualité linguistique, nous offrons nos services de programmation en français et en anglais à un seul tarif, à toutes les communautés à travers le Canada.  Cette pratique qui est la nôtre depuis longtemps aide les minorités linguistiques à vivre, à travailler et à recevoir leurs informations dans leur langue maternelle et ce, à un prix abordable.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12085             MR. TEMPLE:  The fourth criterion is that the applicant's business plan and the implementation of its specific commitments be dependent on broad national distribution on the basic service.  Since our inception, our business plan and commitments have been based on providing the same service to every Canadian, English or French, major town, major city or small town, all at the same affordable rate.  And if you take away basic carriage, the foundation of this business model crumbles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12086             The reality to the marketplace is that stand‑alone programming services such as Pelmorex have no leverage with major distributors.  Without the revenue assured by basic carriage, we will be forced to make hard decisions affecting viewers.  We will not be able to make the program improvements that we outlined in our application.  We will not be able to maintain the same level of service to smaller communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12087             The final criterion that you set for basic carriage is affordability.  Our basic rate is one of the lowest, always has been.  Yet, we have consistently upgraded our weather programming, introducing 14‑day and hourly forecast, road reports, UVN disease and air quality reports.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12088             If approved, we have committed to further lower our wholesale fee from 23 cents to 20 cents.  We have also committed to providing the second language service free to distributors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12089             The Weather Network and Météo Média will be far less affordable in discretionary packages.  Many Canadians will have to pay more simply to keep what they have now.  Others who subscribe only to the basic service, because they can't afford digital cable or discretionary packages won't receive us at all.  We will end up with a two tear public safety service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12090             MR. MORISSETTE:  Commissioners, you have heard from three levels of government and from an array of safety, trade, farm and minority language and other organizations that our application is in the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12091             We were humbled by the avalanche of supporting letters from more than 15,000 Canadians, from over 1,000 communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12092             In closing, here are some excerpts in our own words of what some Canadians had to say to you.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 12093             MR. MORISSETTE:  And you have received more than 15,000 individually written letters just like these previous comments.  Thank you for your attention.  We would be happy to answer any questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12094             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Morissette and your colleagues, thank you very much for your participation this afternoon.  We have no questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12095             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12096             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Nous procéderons avec l'article 7 qui est une demande présentée par CANAL Corporation pour l'avancement de nouvelles applications des langages limités visant à modifier la licence de radiodiffusion de l'entreprise de programmation, de télévision pour la Station CFTU‑TV Canal Savoir.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12097             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Vous avez dix minutes pour votre présentation.

*PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12098             MME GODBOUT:  Merci.  Bonjour, madame la présidente, mesdames et messieurs du Conseil.  Je suis Sylvie Godbout, directrice général du Canal Savoir.  Je suis accompagnée aujourd'hui de monsieur Denis Vaillancourt, à ma gauche, président du Conseil d'administration de Canal Savoir et directeur du service de l'audiovisuel de l'Université du Québec à Montréal et de monsieur Robert Armstrong de Communications Média, notre consultant dans le dossier.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12099             Canal Savoir est la marque de commerce de CANAL Corporation pour l'avancement de nouvelles applications des langages limités, un consortium privé, sans but lucratif oeuvrant depuis 22 ans à la diffusion de la connaissance et du savoir qui regroupe des universités, des collèges et des partenaires clé du domaine audiovisuel francophone canadien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12100             Canal Savoir fournir un service public essentiel en matière de connaissances approfondies et pour illustrer la nature de son service, nous aimerions vous présenter un court montage vidéo.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 12101             MME GODBOUT:  À l'heure actuelle, le canal de Canal Savoir est diffusé en direct sur le Canal 29 à Montréal et retransmis à plus de 4,2 millions d'abonnés analogiques et numériques au Canada grâce à la collaboration de nos partenaires en diffusion, sans qu'aucun tarif d'abonnés ne nous soit payable à nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12102             Nous évaluons qu'en juin 2006 Canal Savoir était disponible auprès de 90 pour cent des abonnés au système de câblodistribution au Québec, mais pour moins d'un pour cent aux abonnés au système de câblodistribution à l'extérieur du Québec.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12103             En dehors de la région de Montréal, les entreprises de distribution n'ont aucune obligation de distribuer notre service et Canal Savoir pourrait disparaître de leur offre du jour au lendemain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12104             Nous avons donc présenté une demande de distribution par ordonnance en vertu de l'Article 9(1)(h) de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.  Associé à une demande de se prévaloir du versement par les entreprises de distribution, d'un modeste tarif mensuel de 0,14 $ par abonné au Québec et de 0,02 $ par abonné numérique à l'extérieur du Québec qui prendrait effet le 1er septembre 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12105             Notre demande vis à consolider notre présence et à améliorer la qualité de notre programmation de Canal Savoir pour la rendre plus attrayante à la population francophone à travers le Canada et contribuer à la démocratisation des savoirs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12106             Canal Savoir cherche à combler une importante lacune dans l'environnement télévisuel francophone canadien et à offrir une nouvelle grille de programmation complémentaire dans l'univers des services éducatifs francophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12107             Si notre demande est approuvée par le Conseil, nous comptons assurer un enrichissement substantiel de notre offre télévisuelle tant sur le plan du contenu que sur le plan de la forme en forgeant notre programmation autour des six grands axes qui vous ont été présentés dans le montage vidéo.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12108             La programmation de Canal Savoir est complémentaire à celle de tous les services télévisuels existants, y compris les services éducatifs Télé‑Québec et TFO qui appuient notre demande.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12109             Notre programmation demeurera exclusivement dans le créneau de l'enseignement supérieur qu'aucun autre service télévisuel canadien francophone ou anglophone ne dessert.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12110             Canal Savoir diffusera des émissions canadiennes à plus de 80 pour cent de sa grille horaire.  Cette grille horaire qui dépend de ses membres pour sa programmation aura recours pour la grande majorité de ses émissions à des maisons de production indépendantes ou à des artisans indépendants en tant que prestataires de services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12111             De plus, si la présente demande est approuvée par le Conseil, Canal Savoir sous‑titra au moins 75 pour cent de sa programmation au plus tard trois ans après le début de l'imposition des tarifs proposés dans ce document.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12112             En ce qui concerne la production régionale, les membres de Canal Savoir comprennent plusieurs institutions à l'extérieur de la métropole montréalaise dont des universités à Québec, Sherbrooke, Chicoutimi, Trois‑Rivières, Rimouski, Abitibi‑Témiscamingue et en Outaouais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12113             À l'extérieur du Québec, comme en témoignent des interventions qui nous appuient, des institutions de Vancouver, Burnaby, Edmonton, Régina, Winnipeg, Sudbury, Ottawa, Moncton, Campbelltown au Nouveau Brunswick, Pointe de l'Église en Nouvelle‑Écosse parmi d'autres, pourraient alimenter la programmation de Canal Savoir en fournissant un apport régional important si notre demande est approuvée par le Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12114             Nous nous engageons à faire produire des émissions régionales à la fois au Québec et à l'extérieur du Québec.  En considération des nouveaux revenus provenant de l'extérieur du Québec envisagés dans notre demande, à nous assurer que la valeur de ce financement à part un montant raisonnable pour les frais d'administration sera réinvesti sur le terme de la licence auprès des institutions oeuvrant à l'extérieur du Québec, aux fins de production, reflétant la réalité.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12115             M. VAILLANCOURT:  La demande du Canal Savoir est conforme aux objectifs énoncés dans les Avis Publics et les Décisions antérieures du CRTC, en réponse aux demandes semblables à la nôtre.  Par exemple; comme nous l'avons démontré dans notre lettre du 30 novembre dernier, la distribution pan‑canadienne de Canal Savoir fera une contribution importante aux objectifs du Décret du Gouvernement du Canada et ceux des rapports du CRTC présentés dans les Avis Publics CRTC‑1998‑8 et 2001‑25, ainsi que de l'Article 41 de la Loi sur les langues officielles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12116             Comme nous l'avons également démontré dans notre demande de Modification de licence du 30 novembre dernier, notre requête conforme aux décisions du Conseil en 1998, 1999 et 2002, en réponse aux trois demandes de distribution pan‑canadiennes présentées respectivement par le Groupe TVA, l'Aboroginal People's Television Network et la chaîne d'affaires publiques par câble CEPAC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12117             Canal Savoir ne cherche qu'à se prévaloir de l'Alinéa 9(1)(h) à l'instar de ces services et de bénéficier d'un nouveau modèle de financement fondé sur l'introduction d'un tarif mensuel d'abonnement tout comme APTN et CEPAC l'ont déjà fait.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12118             Quoique nous ayons demandé que la distribution de notre service soit une obligation au service de base pour toutes les entreprises de distribution autorisées et exemptées par le CRTC, en ce qui concerne les entreprises exemptées, nous visons simplement un traitement conforme à celui accordé à CEPAC ou à APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12119             Les interventions soumises au Conseil en rapport avec la demande de Canal Savoir nous appuient massivement et avec enthousiasme.  Des 65 interventions, 53 l'appuient entièrement, 11 se sont opposées et une ne s'est pas prononcée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12120             Les 11 interventions en opposition à la demande de Canal Savoir s'étaient opposées d'emblée à l'ensemble des 12 demandes...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12121             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Monsieur, pardon, ceci constitue un peu plus une réplique à des interventions.  Vous avez un droit de réplique suite à toutes les interventions qui vont suivre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12122             M. VAILLANCOURT:  Ça va très bien.  À ce moment‑là, je vais sauter un paragraphe, c'est tout.  Il n'y a pas de problème.  Donc, je continue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12123             La demande de Canal Savoir relève de l'intérêt public et n'a aucun rapport avec l'ensemble des demandes déposées au Conseil vers le 27 août 2006 par les services spécialisés à double statut dans le cadre de l'Avis Public de radiodiffusion CRTC 2006‑23.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12124             Il n'en reste pas moins que même si Canal Savoir est un service en direct et n'est donc pas visé par l'Avis public 2006‑23, notre demande remplit toutes les exigences du Conseil identifiées dans cet avis et nous en avons fait la démonstration dans notre lettre du 30 novembre 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12125             À l'heure actuelle, Canal Savoir est offert à environ 41 pour cent de la population canadienne par un grand nombre d'entreprises de distributions dont Vidéotron, COGECO, Bell ExpressVu, Star Choice et plusieurs autres, sans qu'aucun tarif d'abonnement ne soit payable à nous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12126             Canal Savoir ne reçoit aucun financement gouvernemental et fonctionne aujourd'hui avec un budget annuel de quelque 700 000,00 $.  Canal Savoir ne diffuse et ne diffusera aucune publicité commerciale.  L'approbation de notre demande n'aura donc aucune incidence sur les recettes publicitaires reçues par les services télévisuels qui en dépendent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12127             L'infrastructure de Canal Savoir est très légère et si la présente demande est approuvée par le Conseil, Canal Savoir dépensera la très grande majorité de ses revenus sur la programmation comme il l'a toujours fait.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12128             L'approbation de la présente demande de Canal Savoir permettrait d'offrir un service d'enseignement supérieur aux collectivités francophones à l'extérieur du Québec et de l'Ontario car ces populations ne comptent aucun télédiffuseur éducatif francophone qui leur est propre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12129             Ainsi, les avantages pour les collectivités francophones en milieu minoritaire, leur contribution à l'enrichissement de la programmation pour le bénéfice de l'ensemble de la francophonie canadienne et l'effet de levier d'une approbation de la présente demande devraient l'emporter sur toute préoccupation reliée à la distribution obligatoire et au modeste tarif proposé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12130             Madame la président et messieurs membres du Conseil, ceci complète notre présentation.  Il nous fera plaisir de répondre à toute question que vous souhaiteriez nous poser.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12131             LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Madame Godbout, on vous remercie, vous et vos collègues pour votre présence ici aujourd'hui.  Nous n'avons pas de question pour vous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12132             Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12133             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, madame Chair.  This completes Phase I.  We will now proceed to Phase II in which other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their interventions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12134             Please note that for the record, Bell Video Group has been added to the list of appearing intervenors and will appear after the Canadian Cable System Alliance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12135             I will now ask the following four intervenors to come to the presentation table to appear as a panel and present their intervention:  Debwe Communications, RJ Deverell Productions, Young Diplomats and Center for Research‑Action on race relations.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12136             THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Debwe Communications.  Please introduce yourself for the record and you will then have ten minutes for your presentations.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12137             MS. DAVID:  Good afternoon.  Commissioners, my name is Jennifer David.  Thank you very much for the opportunity to positively intervene on behalf of Canada One today.  I stand before you today to give you three different perspectives.  The first is as a former broadcaster, the second as an entrepreneur and the third, as a mother.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12138             It was almost ten years ago that I was in the same position as Canada One is today.  I was the director of Communications for Television Northern Canada which on a very historic day successfully made the case for the Aboriginal People's Television Network which was launched in 1999.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12139             We stood before the CRTC then with many of the same arguments and passion as Canada One stands before you today and I want to say that what Canada One is proposing is as valuable as what we proposed for APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12140             First, the $0.50 digital basic fee in carriage request.  APTN asked for something similar and we were strongly opposed by some citizens' groups and other broadcasters.  One broadcaster even made the comment that the current broadcasting system was meeting the needs of Aboriginal people and that they were already showing a variety of Aboriginal programming.  Well, we know that that was not the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12141             Even programming that had, shall we say, Aboriginal faces were still produced, directed and ultimately controlled by non‑Aboriginal companies and interests.  We needed APTN to showcase the great talent in Aboriginal communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12142             If you look at APTN now eight years later, we see a vibrant award‑winning network that has virtually created an entire production industry from the ground up.  That would not have been possible without access to basic cable and a mandatory fee.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12143             APTN has also become the creative space for young innovative Aboriginal producers, directors, actors and a wide range of other carriers that many young Aboriginal people would only have dreamed about before the creation of APTN.  I believe the same potential exists for Canada One.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12144             Television can be a very difficult industry.  It's often cupped road and competitive.  Producers and directors have to fight for their own programs and work to get them on the air.  If you tune into any main stream network in Canada, you will see some diversity.  Think E. and Hanna Mansing or Sue Hanna Marchand on CBC or Lorn Cardinal in Corner Gas on CTC. And CityTV and Vision have both worked hard to ensure a variety of views and voices are seen and heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12145             But where can people turn to see more and consistent programming by and about the range of cultures in Canada?  Where is the creative space to fully explore the contradictions within cultures and the struggle for belonging experienced by many second and third generation Canadians.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12146             Commercial television is driven by profit.  That's why our own airwaves and Canadians themselves watch things like Law & Order and CSI over MooseTV or Little Musk on the Prairie.  I mean, hey! even I do that.  But if I am interested in different cultural programming, I have to look very hard or just be in the right place at the right time to just happen to catch something interesting and entertaining.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12147             Canada One will be able to bring this altogether on one network.  Canadians are so proud of saying we're a mosaic rather than a melting pot of diversity, but cultural diversity on television is a melting pot and Canada One, I would say, is proposing a mosaic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12148             As part of this hearing, you will hear I'm sure from various broadcasters and companies who will say that the network is too expensive, that existing broadcasters are already airing multi‑cultural programming and that we don't need another niche network that everyone has to pay for.  One intervenor said Canadians shouldn't have to pay for a service that has no proven track record and is unlikely to find a broad audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12149             Should that really be the only determinants?  APTN didn't have a proven track record and while the network has dramatically increased its audience, it still may not be considered broad, but what a difference it has made.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12150             Now, I'm certainly no regulatory expert, but I know that to be considered for basic cable, we argued that APTN was an exceptional service.  We've heard negative interventions say that Canada One is not an exceptional service and I am here to disagree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12151             Certainly, Canadian TV networks have substantially increased the number of culturally diverse groups seen on the small screen, but this programming in isolation, scattered across several networks is not exceptional, neither are niche networks that offer multilingual programming aimed at particular language audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12152             What is exceptional is you have a network dedicated to culturally diverse programming, programming in English that will only be found together in one place.  Who is truly committed in the long term to developing this growing segment of the film industry?  Who is committed with the range of cultural expertise to offer consistent accurate stories about contemporary ethnic communities in Canada.  Who will support the difficult stories, the shocking stories, the stories of struggle and shame and racism?  And what about reflecting diversity in the board‑room and then, the decision‑making circles of television networks?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12153             This is what Canada One will do best and I think this is exceptional.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12154             Now, from another perspective, I would like to mention a few things as a business owner.  After working for APTN, I started my own communications and production company specializing in Aboriginal communications.  It's called "Debwe Communications" and Debwe means "The one who speaks true in ogibwe".  I have worked to build bridges between Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal communities.  I tried to ensure that a true, accurate and contemporary view of Aboriginal people is the one that people see.  Canada One is going to play that same role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12155             A multi‑cultural channel to showcase unique cultures and viewpoints is very much needed in Canada.  While there are channels like OMNI‑1, most Canadians don't tune in because of language barriers and the programming is not from Canada.  We need an English language network in Canada.  And here in Canada we do need to build more bridges; no more stereotypes, no more judgments, no more racism, no more bigotry. Isn't that what we all want?  These are grand and some might say "pie in the sky dreams", but then, isn't that what dreams are supposed to be?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12156             I've seen over and over again in my business that animosity grows where ignorance reigns.  We are fearful of things we do not understand.  But Canada One is an amazing opportunity to tear down the walls that divide us and open windows into the lives of Canadians from so many different backgrounds.  I too am guilty of ignorance.  I know very little about, I don't know, for example, persian culture or ethiopian values or brazilian traditions, yet all these make up the Canada we live in.  Let's start seeing this on television and particularly in our dramatic programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12157             And, finally, I appeal to you as a mother.  I have a Cri obigwe Irish and French background.  My husband is filipino.  That makes our two young children a reflection of Canada's great diversity.  I want them to grow up to be wise, respectful, caring individuals who see and embrace the diversity around them.  To do that, they must be exposed to a variety of experiences and opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12158             Now again, watching television may seem like a very small piece of all that, but it is one piece and as I can attest from my experience with APTN, we only make Canada a better place when we see and hear as much diversity as exists in this great country of ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12159             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12160             THE SECRETARY:  Now, RJ Deverell Productions.  Please introduce yourself and you have ten minutes.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12161             MS DEVERELL:  I'm Rita Shelton Deverell, RJ Deverell Productions, an independent producer of theatre and television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12162             Thank you, madam Chair, and Commissioners for giving me this opportunity to say a few words in support of Canada One Television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12163             I was thinking about this this morning and I believe that this is the eight time I have appeared before the CRTC in the last 20 years,   the first time being the licence hearing of VisionTV of which I am one of the founders, the most recent time being in support of CTV Newsnet who wanted to expand their live quell, but I was here because I was working for APTN Aboriginal People's Television Network with which CTV have very productive relationship with APTN News.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12164             Prior to that, and this history lesson won't take very long, prior to that in the early seventies, I remember meeting off‑line and off‑site with a number of people who were concerned about children's television and that was with the then Chair Pierre Juneau who was the sitting chair when I immigrated to Canada in 1967.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12165             The reason I flag this is I think most of us would agree that the problems of violence in children's television and portray visible minority people in children's television have been almost wrestled to the ground.  That only took, by my count, about 35 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12166             So, here are the reasons that I am in support of Canada One, at least just three of those reasons.  One does have to do with visible minority ownership, executive management and significant participation in the Board of Directors.  I think it matters who owns it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12167             This came to me very strongly while I was working for APTN.  I was on a three‑year as the Commissioners are aware, a three‑year sunset contract to kick start a daily news show and mentor my Aboriginal successor as director of news and current affairs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12168             When it got to be time for me to leave, which happened about a year and a half ago, I noticed that a lot of my colleagues in broadcasting were taking me aside and saying: "How do you feel about leaving APTN"?  It took me a while to say: "Well, like any silver templed broadcaster who doesn't know what the next ice flow is, I'm a little bit nervous, but if you're asking me if it's appropriate and right and just that Aboriginal People's Television Network should be owned and managed by Aboriginal peoples, yes it is and it's time for me to move over, I've made the contribution that I can make".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12169             It's time that Aboriginal peoples had a very tiny slice of this rather lucrative and important business we call "broadcasting".  That's also true with visible minority people.  It is significant, I think, the ownership, the executive management and who is in the board‑room, so that's one reason I am strongly in support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12170             This is especially true in an era of increasing concentration and consolidation, the diversity of voices.  Now, I am not here to say that consolidation and concentration is a bad thing.  That's not the subject of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12171             What I am here to say is I think it's the responsibility of all of us and especially the Commission to preserve and enhance the diversity of voices in the system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12172             Little Musk on the Prairie was referenced earlier today and last week I was meeting with a few people at CBC and they can't stop smile because they have this hit series called "Little Musk on the prairie" that got over two million viewers in its first episode over one million in subsequent episodes and that's extremely wonderful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12173             What I wish to flag is the amount of infrastructure that it takes to create something like that and the ongoing work it takes to support the creators of a series like that.  The creator and writer of Little Musk on the Prairie participated in a workshop at Banff which many of you may know called "Women in the director's chair".  That is because women do need a place where they can take on senior roles in the industry.  Studio D at the National Film Board was needed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12174             Now, Women in the director's chair also concentrates on visible minority and Aboriginal key creators.  There has to be a place for that kind of diversity of voice and Canada One Television will assist in that greatly.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12175             And finally, there has to be a place for this kind of key drama that comes from diverse human‑beings.  Drama is the most compelling, the stuff of life and I have to admit wasn't that my first profession.  Quite frankly, 35 years ago, it was not possible for a black actress to make it in Canadian theatre and television, it simply was not possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12176             Now it is, but you have to ask how long I'll switch to the stage, which is where most actors come from.  Last year, another venerable Canadian institution, the Stratford Festival, had its first all black play.  This summer, it will have Othello with a black person playing Othello.  The Stratford Festival is 50 years old.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12177             I am overjoyed about this.  This is not a sour grapes speech, but it is to say that in order to get to that stage, there has to be a place or places where you are continually practising your craft.  You have to do it every day to get to be senior.  So, in fact, this actor who is playing Othello has been the artistic director of a black theatre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12178             The principals in Canada One are very experienced producers and business people, they are extremely responsible and accountable and they will make this place for other creators to continue to practice their craft.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12179             So, I am going to leave you with a bit of a slogan from my background from the NAACP, the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured Peoples, a bind is a terrible thing to waste.  It would be terrible to waste the talents of visible minority managers, board members, owners.  It would be terrible to waste the talents of visible minority creators until they get to senior positions, but most importantly, it would be terrible to waste the minds of the young audience who need to see themselves reflected on their Canadian television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12180             And for all those reasons I'm in support of Canada One.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12181             THE SECRETARY:  And now, Young Diplomats, please present yourself and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12182             MS SHIMELES:  Thank you, madame Chair, and Commissioners.  My name is Helena Shimeles, I am 21 years old and I'm completing my studies in June at the University of Toronto in Human Biology and African studies.  My colleague here, Alpha, and myself are very pleased to be here in support of the Canada One Television initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12183             I have been an active member of the Ethiopian Communities since I was 16 years old and I am now the Executive Director of a Coalition of Youth Leaders known as the Young Diplomats.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12184             Young Diplomats fondly known as the "Young Dips" is an incorporated dynamic youth run organization that strives to be a resourceful and inspiring presence for the Ethiopian Youth of Toronto.  We uphold our mission by creating programs for youth, which means one or more of our identified community needs, of health, education, dias for partnerships and facilitating resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12185             In 2006‑2007 alone we received funding to launch our mentorship program and summer leadership camp.  The overall goal of the membership program known as vibrant thinks is to provide young men and women positive male and female road models and to alleviate levels of violence while creating positive social spaces for youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12186             The mentorship program provides academic, social and career counselling while also addressing anger, cultural conflict and identity issues in our youth.  Our programming is part of our larger vision to reconstruct the Ethiopian community social geography in the most multicultural and cosmopolitan Canadian city of Toronto.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12187             So, what is so significant about the Young Diplomats.  We see ourselves as holding a unique position as facilitators among dissenting views of first generation Ethiopian Canadians and emerging second generation youth.  Thus, we aim to bridge the inter‑generational gaps found in our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12188             Canada hosts new immigrant groups with old immigrants, so it makes sense to create a medium which fosters dialogue between the two.  In this way, to us, Canada One not only represents a diverse channel, it represents many partnerships and collaborations among varying communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12189             It provides a new outlet for us to translate the old traditions of our parents as well as the unique lived experience as diverse youth.  We now have the stories and experiences of our parents fresh in our minds and we hope to take advantage of this opportune time to join our historical traditions with Canadian resources to help better reflect the Canada that we see of today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12190             Perhaps for the first time in the 30 years as a community in this country Ethio. Canadians are attempting to shed our feeling of a temporary existence in Canada.  As youth, we are inquisitive, confident, active and willing to make an impact and demonstrate our contribution to the future of Canadian society.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12191             I, myself, have been raised in Canada since I was about three years old and yet, this realization that I have the potential to provide a unique contribution to society in my home, Canada, is a realization which has only recently dawned upon me.  It is one of the many goals of the Young Diplomats to help share this realization with other youth in our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12192             Today, we realize that we represent a unique voice at this hearing.  We are young, first generation, second generation immigrants who, according to estimates by the Ethiopian Association of Toronto represent a population of over 30,000 people in Toronto alone.  We feel that we have a lot to offer to Canada, yet we are still under‑served and under‑represented in most social programming, including the media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12193             As you can imagine, we have no vested interest in this Canada One television initiative, other than the hope of finally being able to relate to the Canadian community as a young and diverse people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12194             Current initiatives aimed at addressing Canada's diversity are a good start, but have a limited impact.  They are largely third language programming and have a failed impact on native English speakers such as ourselves.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12195             As a new immigrant in a largely refugee population, they are not very many opportunities for our community in main stream Canadian media.  When such opportunities do exist, they are often under‑funded and alienated, not only from main stream Canadian audiences, but often from parts of its own community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12196             For example; at the moment, there is an Ethiopian program on the channel.  However, it's not a prime time and lacks the capacity to provide relevant programming to many parts of our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12197             As a young yet significant member of Canada, I hope to see the continued implementation of relevant and engaging programming that speaks to me in where I am in my life.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12198             MS ABEBE:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, as Helena mentioned, my name is Alpha Abebe.  I too am a founder and member of Young Diplomats and I am currently coordinating our organization on mentorship program.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12199             Apart from my work in the Ethiopian community, I am at my final year at the University of Toronto with majors in criminology and political science.  Through my under‑graduate work I have dedicated ‑‑ I took a keen interest in immigration settlement issues.  I have dedicated two under‑graduate theses to the study of the Ethiopian community in Toronto and I will be continuing this research in my graduate next Fall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12200             As part of Young Diplomats I was most fortunate to lead a community base participatory action research project that was commissioned by the United Nations in university for peace.  With the grant from the Gordon Foundation, we surveyed over 175 Ethio‑canadian youth in Toronto and I presented our research at the United Nations Diaspora Conference last Fall in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12201             Following the conference, our research was featured in the Globe & Mail Article entitled "Canada's welcome that warn".  One finding in particular stood out.  Our respondents included recent and seasoned immigrant youth as well as those Canadian born and when asked which culture they identified with more, over 65 per cent of these youth said that they identified more as Ethiopian than Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12202             Our findings correspond with many other similar researches, including the recently published report by Stats Can that was featured in the Globe & Mail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12203             I would like to read you a quote from one of the focused group participants in our research:


~                     "I want recognition as an Ethiopian African youth.  I want recognition as an individual.  I want the people around me to know what I have done and that I am not part of the percentage."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12204             This powerful voice comes from an 18‑year old Ethio‑Canadian.  Some might find her tone conflicted, others political and some might be offended at the lack of Canada in her words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12205             Currently, there is a cynical tone rising in Canada about the issue of our identity and the media discourse has been largely in favour of this cynicism.  However, as a Canadian born, Ethiopian African individual youth myself I can tell you that our generation, the new face of Canada, feel quite comfortable with our multiple identities.  It is when these multiple identities are not valued in society or we are forced to choose between them that issues arise.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12206             There is also something to be said about many immigrant youth and even children of immigrants like myself, finding it hard to identify as Canadian.  The youth in our study spoke frankly about feeling culturally isolated in Canada.  However, rather than condemning communities that feel marginalized in Canada, we should be fostering a sense of belonging and providing opportunities for these communities to take ownership of Canadian Society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12207             This, however, will never happen without the creation of bonified, viable and accessible opportunities for young people in community such as my own, a vision that Canada One TV shares.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12208             The focus from here should be on the opportunity that lies in this crucial time, not the challenge or threat that it poses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12209             Through the prominence of American media, we are bombarded with notions of black‑white or immigrant‑not immigrant deconomies that may have more historical significance in the United States, but relate less to the Canadian experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12210             Such forms of thinking do not account for the complexities and nuances of our society, nor does it do justice to Canada's commitment to multiculturalism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12211             In response to the question of the filipino viewer relating to the black actor, it is not about Ethiopian TV or black TV.  It's about getting a chance to see these complexities in our society and cultures on TV and engaging all communities in this process.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12212             Through the process of this hearing, I hope we can be honest about the true nature of television.  Yes, television is an enterprise, it is a form of entertainment as well as a commodity, but it is also a powerful medium that disseminates information, creates, shapes and chains identities, mobilizes his whole communities and groups and is meant to act as a mirror that reflects our lived experiences, our challenges and our hopes for the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12213             As young people, we not only learn about our wealth in the daily news.  We do so from the musical we listen to, the movies we watch and, of course, the dramas we follow.  Canada One TV has a vision to create a space within which young people like myself can both see my experience is reflected on the small screen, but also one where we can help shape those images through training and opportunities in the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12214             Approving the Canada One TV application will be an important step in taking Canada's official policy in multiculturalism away from rhetoric and towards permission.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12215             MR. NIEMI:  Madame la présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers, je m'appelle Fo Niemi, je suis le directeur général du CRAR, le Centre de Recherche‑Actions sur les relations raciales et je vous remercie de me permettre de me présenter ici devant vous pour parler de l'importance d'une initiative nationale telle que Canada One TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12216             En tant qu'organisme montréalais de défense des droits à la personne et de promotion de l'égalité et de l'harmonie raciale au Canada, nous considérons qu'il est temps, que le temps est venu pour le Canada de se doter d'un service national de télévision commerciale dédiée à une programmation de qualité dans laquelle on revoit très bien de manière juste et équitable la diversité et le caractère multiculturel et multiracial de notre pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12217             Sans répéter ce qu'on a dit, je crois qu'on pourrait résumer de la manière suivante les trois raisons principales pour lesquelles ce projet doit être appuyé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12218             Premièrement, Canada One promotes an inclusive Canadian citizenship and culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12219             Number 2, Canada One TV offers greater social and economic opportunities particularly for "racialized" Canadians and people of Aboriginal backgrounds and, thirdly, using diversity as a new tie that binds Canada One TV links quebecers with the rest of Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12220             Je voudrais peut‑être juste souligner les grandes lignes de notre intervention parce que je ne pense pas qu'il est nécessaire de répéter pourquoi la sous‑représentation de la diversité raciale et culturelle du pays est encore évidente à l'écran de télévision canadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12221             Il est important de souligner, comme ma collègue l'a dit tantôt, que la diversité raciale ici au Canada est très différentes de la vision américaine des choses.  Il y a aussi le fait que dans la télévision canadienne de langue anglaise, souvent la programmation est trop, ce qu'on appelle en anglais "trop torontoise" et les autres minorités dans les grandes régions urbaines du Canada ne se retrouvent pas dans plusieurs de ces programmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12222             Il y a toute la question aussi de stéréotype, ce qu'on appelle la *ghettorisation+ à caractère racial parce qu'on a dit tantôt, ce matin, qu'il y a trop peu de rôle de premier plan dans les émissions dramatique qui représentent la diversité raciale du Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12223             I would like to just add one more very important thing because of the changes in the immigration and the diversification of the visible minority constituencies with whom we had often talked in monolithic terms, as that when we look at the persons of colour on Canadian TV we tend to look at them as either Americans, mostly African or Hispanic Americans or Nationals from countries around the globe who are too often depicted in new stories about war, crime, natural disasters or other atrocities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12224             And for the people from different countries, particularly from the Middle‑East, from South Asia and from Ethiopia that have really dominated Canadian Immigration in the last two decades, no wonder there is a growing number of people who feel that basically as new Canadians or Canadians of colours, whether born in this country or adopted recently by this country, they do not feel emotionally connected with this thing called "Canadian culture" or "Canadian citizenship" through Canadian media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12225             And if they have to turn to foreign programming to see here and find themselves, then I believe that as a country we have somewhat failed a most basic duty to create and foster and inclusive Canadian citizenship.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12226             We also believe that ethnic and racial or even religious diversity being an essential component of Canadian identity and national consciousness enough about industry, however at the same time there is a sense of disconnect because beyond this course, changes still are very slow and people still feel excluded in great numbers.  And I am not talking about exclusion in terms of before the screen, but those who are behind the camera.  And I believe that Canada One TV is an alternative to that solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12227             Let allow me to get straight to one of the most important issues that I think will perhaps guide the CRTC and Canadian cultural industry in this decade, is how do we feel, how do we address and how do we concretely adapt to changes brought on by this new phase of immigration in the globalized village in which the American ‑‑ shall we say ‑‑ the American integrated market strategy can confound very much of the Canadian citizenship who we are, not only to ourselves, but who we are to the rest of the world and who are our allies and who are our friends, who are our enemies around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12228             So, we have to come across a very clear sense of who we are both domestically and internationally and one way to do so is to ensure that through the Canadian windows of culture, meaning the Canadian media, we can present ourselves as the people or as people sharing one land in a way that would truly reflect who we are and who we are becoming in growing numbers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12229             In the global community as well, we have to think in terms of the sense of international connectedness and we have to really exploit the cultural diversity in terms of economic benefits and I would like to mention that basically if the Canada One TV is licensed, it would not be a broadcast ghetto that many people think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12230             It will become because it will be basically seizing the opportunity to move into the future of not only a globalized culture in which Canada plays a very active role promoting culture diversity on the world stage, but also in which Canadian multiculturalism is used and is seen around the world as a shining model for "nation building".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12231             I would like to remind you that recently the CERD,  the Committee for the elimination of racial discrimination of United Nations issued a report about Canada's performance under the International Obligations and, of course, we, as a country, have many more challenges to deal with, racism and inclusion of it and also the participation of people who are coloured, Aboriginal people, but somehow through it all, we do have a set of common values, we do have a sense of common good and part of it common good is to ensure that the Canadian cultural industry as well as Canadian culture are truly inclusive.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12232             My presence today is to speak also from the view of a quebecer, especially after last night's election results.  I believe that our organization can bring an additional perspective to this application and the debate around this application because we have to recognize that there are almost 900,000 English speakers in Quebec, many of whom come from what we call "racialized" or visible minorities.  And these members of minorities, either English speaking or increasingly French speaking have the skills, have the talents, have the needs and have the desires to fully participate in the economy and in the cultural industry from which they are still largely excluded in Quebec and in Canada in general.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12233             And these are people who have will, they have the skills and they would be ready to travel, to move to work, to find opportunities, because when we talk to young people from schools such as Concordia University or even French speaking universities, people feel that, look, opportunities would be greater for us if there was something called perhaps, Canada One TV or other cultural institutions outside of Quebec that can allow us to be mobile and find a kind of work that would truly respond to our ‑‑ basically our talents and competence.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12234             Mais j'aimerais ajouter, pour conclure, que la contribution la plus importante de Canada One TV se fera sentir au niveau social et culturel grâce à cette manière de permettre à beaucoup de québécois quel que soit l'origine et leur couleur de peau, de se sentir beaucoup plus uni et qui pourrait permettre de renforcer une identité nationale canadienne dans les deux langues officielles parce que, vous savez, nous vivons tous dans une société où les frontières diminuent, au moins les frontières géopolitiques et géographiques, mais qu'à plusieurs niveaux des frontières basées, entre autres, sur la discrimination existent encore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12235             Donc, nous sommes convaincus que Canada One TV rapprochera les minorités raciales, les groupes *racisés+ au Québec ainsi que tous les québécois qui partagent cet idéal de la diversité avec l'ensemble du Canada qui partage cette même préoccupation et la même vision que le Canada du lendemain sera avec toute sa diversité culturelle et raciale.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12236             And you know what?  For half the price of a donut for $0.50, people will really put in that $0.50 in order to help play the role to be connected and to feel that, yes, we are a part of this nation building exercise and we are Canadians, regardless of basically where we came from or basically what the skin colour is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12237             So, let's not allow this basically half the price of this donut impede the development of this great new national initiative that's called "Canada One TV".  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12238             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12239             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, madam Chair.  My question goes to the whole group and don't take it as being a personal question, but it's surely an issue and something that the Commission will have to consider.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12240             Mr. Niemi, at the end of his oral presentation did say that it's only half a dollar, it's only $0.50.  Do you think Canadians are ready to pay $0.50 per household for a diversity television service?  Anyone of you can answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12241             MR. NIEMI:  Perhaps I could address it.  Do you know how many, even young people are not making a lot of money are ready to pay money to download music into their cellphone or even the new screen saver, sometimes it's $2.99.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12242             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Now, my next question is a bit loaded.  Do you think the election results of yesterday in Quebec is an indication that Canadians are ‑‑ that quebecers will be ready?  I know that they are not asking for basic distribution in Quebec, but I am enlarging it to be fully Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12243             But do you think, taking into consideration the election results of last night in Quebec, do you think Canadians are ready to pay for $0.50 per household for a diversity television service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12244             MR. NIEMI:  Canadians will pay if they see a well‑produced high quality programming drama programs on TV.  I believe that there is this hunger for quality products.  There is also this hunger to especially with the changes going on in the country and different regions to know more about each other and to also appreciate one's role place and one's role in the global economy and in the global ‑‑ le village global. People will, if they know that they have a good product, they will pay for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12245             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And any other of the group?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12246             MS DEVERELL:  Well, we certainly have two loaded political questions that you've asked.  I think though that we are not experts on this particular question and the remarks of Kaan Yigit this morning are in fact most illuminating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12247             That when asked whether you would pay a little bit more to have the type of service that Canada One offers, the response is "yes".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12248             MS DAVID:  I would just add to that, going back to my experience with APTN.  There will always be people who don't want to pay anything for any service.  There are people that don't want to pay for public education if they don't have children in the system.  They don't want to pay for public health, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12249             I think that there is a bigger question of: is this network exceptional and should it be available to a wide range of Canadians?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12250             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Surely the APTN example is very good because it raised upper hour when people discovered it was to cost them $0.10 per month and so this one is five times.  I know that APTN is even ‑‑ now it has been granted some rate increase and that didn't raise any upper hour, but when they launched at $0.10 per month, that was somehow problematic for those who were involved probably in communications, trying to give a straight answer to that question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12251             Mr. Niemi, this morning in the oral presentation made by Diversity Television, I think your name was mentioned as being a member of their Consultative Committee.  Am I right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12252             MR. NIEMI:  I just learned it this morning, but, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12253             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But it is your ‑‑ so it is CRAR or is it for Niemi that is on the Consultative Committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12254             M. NIEMI:  Je pense qu'on m'a invité à titre de directeur général du CRAR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12255             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Those were my questions, madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12257             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, would you be willing to pay $0.25 for a channel that is about the Metis people and for Metis people?  No answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12258             MR. NIEMI:  It depends on what that channel offers.  There is something that I think we have to be very careful with the kind of questions being asked because in the last couple of years, there is a lot of debate, especially because of the 9‑11 context.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12259             There is a feeling that we have to make Canadian citizenship more attractive and we have to make Canadian citizenship stronger, especially in the sense of global village and all of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12260             And you know, we, from Quebec, we have to play a leadership role in pushing for culture diversity around the globe.  So, there are things that perhaps in Quebec we have a greater sense of patriotism et un meilleur sens d'identité nationale, quelle que soit la définition du mot *nation+.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12261             And I hear, I think that there are things that we have to build and construct to help nation building.  We have to invest in it, not only as institutions, but as citizens residing in this country.  And if people have the right civic duties, have to have the right mind and this is a good product and good service, they will do it, because they feel this is more than just a question of dealing with the cultural needs or the information needs, but this is part of an exercise in nation building and bringing people together and develop that sense of common good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12262             And if that sense of common good leads to a greater value, an added value for Canadian citizenship and a stronger and more diverse and more interesting Canadian culture, then people will put the money in it, especially in discovering our First Nations people, one of our biggest concerns in working relations is the race relations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12263             We have new immigrants coming in and they still have no interaction with Aboriginal people.  They always see Aboriginal people as abstraction or in textbook.  So, when there are opportunities to bring people closer, whether virtually or in person, $0.25 per month, $0.50 a month, you know, it's ‑‑ if you know especially young people and they can download the screen saver and the cellular phone is right there, 199, 299.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12264             So, we have to ‑‑ it's a debate about what choice do we want to present to this country and its people in terms of the cost or the value of the Canadian citizenship and Canadian culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12265             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you be willing to pay $0.40 for a channel that had a described video?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12266             MR. NIEMI:  That have a what?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12267             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Described video, $0.40 a month.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12268             MR. NIEMI:  That's the same.  I sometime may pay more for my video because I download too many movies.  It's sure when you go after limit, you pay $30.00 more a month, woops! surprise, but you know, whatever is "downloadable", it's worth it because it satisfies my cultural taste and my need for information.  We live in information age, in the global age and that's why we have to push for the minds of Canadians to expend and if that costs $0.10, $0.20, $0.30, if people feel that they're getting their bank for the box, they will do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12269             MS ABEBE:  If I might also add.  Perhaps I can speak to the other applications that were put forward today, but though I know this application is put forward as a specialty channel, and I guess there is legal and regulatory issues that relate to that, as a person who probably would be on the receiver end of this service, I don't see it as a niche market.  I don't see it as something specialty in that sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12270             I really do see it as a context in which we can really ‑‑ I know the analogy of the mirror has been put forward very often, but I really think it's the best analogy to put forward here.  It's essentially is a mirror to reflect what Canada is today and if the numbers that were presented by Diversity and the other research are sort of common knowledge by walking on the street in Toronto, Vancouver and in most parts of Canada today and in the future, even more so.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12271             It's just clear that the Canada of today reflects this kind of diversity, so if that's the case then this isn't a niche market.  This isn't something very special in that sense.  It's a matter of reflecting what is, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, in answer to my question which was: would you be willing to pay $0.40 a month for a closed captioning channel, what is your answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273             MS ABEBE:  For me I would say yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you be willing to pay $0.12 a month for Avis de recherche?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275             MS ABEBE:  I didn't understand that application, so I am not sure what is that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12276             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now, it's telling people about crimes and missing children and things like that that helps the police.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277             MS ABEBE:  I am a criminology student, so maybe I have a different perspective on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  What about $0.14 in English Canada for Canal Savoir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279             MS ABEBE:  For me, I mean, I am sure you can continue with similar analogies.  For me, I don't see any way, not that these aren't deserving applications, that's a completely different issue, I just don't see how they are analogous in any sense to our application.  I see this very very differently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12280             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you all very much for your contribution this afternoon.  We have no more questions for you.  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask the following three intervenors to come to the presentation table to appear as a panel and present their interventions:  Gord Hope, Geoff Eden and Charlie Macdonald.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283             THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Mr. Gord Hope.  You have 10 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12284             MR. HOPE:  Greetings to you, Madam Chair; to you, vice‑chairs; Madam Secretary; Commissioners; fellow intervenors and all who are gathered here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285             Allow me to express my appreciation.  I do appreciate the opportunity to intervene at this hearing.  It's an exciting time in Canadian television and telecommunications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12286             My name is Gord Hope and I reside with my wife and three daughters in Brantford, Ontario.  Currently, I'm employed by the Canadian Counsel of the Blind, CCB.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287             I'm not really presenting on behalf of the Canadian Counsel of the Blind.  I haven't consulted or been directed by its National Board or Staff.  But, I believe that my intervention is reflective of the views of many CCB members, of which I am one, having seen a number of the emails that were shared back and forth among members of CCB.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12288             CCB is the largest consumer organization for Canada for blind and vision impaired persons.  It is known as the voice of the blind and vision impaired in Canada.  And, it is recognized by the Federal Government as having over sixteen hundred full members, and hundreds of thousands of associate members across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289             Of the over one hundred and fifty interventions submitted in writing by blind and vision impaired persons in support of NBRS's application, many were submitted by members of the CCB.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290             I am a subscriber, a voice print.  Though not an extremely heavy user of the service, I appreciate its availability.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12291             Just want to present, if I might, some biographical information.  And it's presented in greater detail then I'll go into here on the second page of my intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292             But I would say here that, and inform you that, I lost my sight before the age of two years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12293             I've been active among blind and vision impaired folks since the ages of six years, when I began my education at the, well, Ontario School for the Blind, now the W. Ross Macdonald School.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294             I've been active among them through my education, employment, volunteer and sports involvements, and some of my significant friendships as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295             It is relevant to this presentation to say that I have been a client of CNIB for some fifty years.  I present a significant portion ‑‑ during a significant portion of my life, I've spent, sorry, a significant portion of my life being educated to a level of PhD in social psychology from Carlton University in 1989 and including a post‑doctoral diploma in clinical psychology from the University of Ottawa in 1990.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12296             Now, I've also represented Canada at the Paralympics in 1976 and 1984, and was active in blind sports as an athlete, an administrator and an organizer of events for some twenty‑five years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12297             Besides being a client of CNIB, the agency was, at one time, my employer for about two years.  And my employment history also includes two and a half years in my current position, employed by the Canadian Counsel of the Blind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298             My diverse volunteer involvements include with consumer organizations for the blind and vision impaired persons, including the Blind Organization of Ontario self help tactics, Boost, where I was an executive member.  I was CCB, where I was instrumental in the development of the two dollar coin and the inauguration of the Brantford Chapter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299             With CCB ‑‑ sorry.  Now, my primary purpose for presenting this biographical information is not to draw attention to Gord Hope's good fortune and accomplishments.  Folks who in fact know me would, I'm sure, attest that such a presentation is not my usual style.  Rather, my hope is that it will help you commissioners to be comfortable with attributing credibility to the points I'm about to make and to the time and effort I've put in in preparing them for your consideration.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12300             Unlike some who have prepared today, who have presented, I have not been here seven or eight or ten times.  This is my first time.  We're strangers.  In and through all of my background, I have, by necessity, developed a capacity and reputation for independent thinking and action, even if I might say to the point of causing consternation among my educational, research employment, and volunteer colleagues and supervisors on route to attaining the successes I have achieved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301             And so, are the points of my intervention.  And they are these.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302             I'm here to contest some of principles and thinking underlying some of the concerns raised by those intervening against the application by NBRS.  And in doing so, I'm hoping to impress the point that they're application is a suitable and worthy one, and that NBRS is a suitable operator for the service for which they are applying.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12303             I wanted to contest, specifically, concerns raised as to the appropriateness of licensing a so‑called specialty descriptive video channel when regulation of the broadcast system calls for TV broadcasters to reach quotas with auditory description of their programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12304             I also want to pose a question about whether a comparison between the history of the development of closed captioning services among TV broadcasters is a fair one with the application and the service proposed by NBRS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305             And I want to discuss whether the principles of universal design, which have been put forward by some intervening against the application, have been accurately represented and the principles, and the application of those principles and guidelines, whether they've been fully discussed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306             Have we been given appropriate comparisons too, between the effect of CNIB's employment and library services on the one hand, and those of NBRSs proposed service as anticipated by some on the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307             In those contexts, I will close by discussing the role of the regulator and relations between the regulator and consumer organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308             So let me discuss comparisons with the emergence and development of closed captioning services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309             To summarize the concern raised, a specialty channel, it is pointed out, was not required to make closed captioning of TV network programming widely available for deaf and hard of hearing viewers, albeit, it did take some time to reach the level it has.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12310             The reality is, though, that the community of deaf and hard of hearing persons is four to fives times larger in numbers than that of blind and vision impaired persons and would exceed the number of those who would have interest ‑‑ would far exceed the number of those who would have interest in a descriptive video channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311             And, I believe, the editing of, and human resource involvement required for closed captioning is less cumbersome and somewhat less expensive that what is required for descriptive video.  The larger market and reduced costs will have made closed captioning easier for the broadcasters to find commercial sponsors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312             Move on now to the principle and guidelines of Universal Design.  And this is, perhaps, a more complicated argument, but not a difficult one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313             As far as it is taken, the principles of Universal Design have been correctly enough conveyed in written submissions to the commission.  That is the design of products and environments to be usable by all people to the greatest extent possible, without the need for adaptation or specialized design.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12314             The design of products and environments, sorry ‑‑ now what is understated in interventions that I have seen is the, to the greatest extent possible, aspect of the principle of Universal Design.  Of course, it is not to the greatest extent convenient and that's understood, thank goodness.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12315             But it does not provide ‑‑ it does provide flexibility regarding how the principles and guidelines are applied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316             I submit that this can be applied both in terms of access ability of physical access and otherwise.  But it can also apply to how these ‑‑ it can also be spoke of with respect to how ‑‑ or applied the services in so‑called mainstream parameters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317             For example, if the principles and guidelines of Universal Design were only to be applied within mainstream parameters, there would have been a very strong human cry by the proponents of UD against the development of computer access technology by specialized developers, and in support of waiting for those developments to take place in the mainstream platforms, such as Microsoft Windows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318             Interestingly, the Macintosh platform has, until recently, outstripped Microsoft considerably with respect to its accessibility design.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12319             But most blind and vision impaired computer users have chosen to go with the access products of specialized developers while we waited for Microsoft to catch up, which it now has, to a great degree, with its Windows Vista product.  This has taken place some twelve years after Windows 95 was launched, and some thirty years or more after the advent of computer access technology for blind and vision impaired users.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             So, if someone were to defy me to find within Universal Design documentation, specific reference to this sort of flexibility, rather than seeking ‑‑ rather than searching through the documentation, I would simply point to this precedent as demonstrating the flexibility of the principles ‑‑ of the application of the principles and outlines of Universal Design as they apply to whether or not all services for accessibly should be sought in mainstream parameters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             It might also be argued, on the other hand, that the development of access technology, although by specialized developers, has taken place within the mainstream of the computer slash information technology industry.  To the same extent, though, it can also, I would argue in return, that the accessibility channel concept, though to be run by a specialized service operator, would be done ‑‑ would be operated within the mainstream of the Canadian broadcast industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             I might turn attention now to comparisons between the employment library services of CNIB with the specialty channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             Now, the above points that I made regarding Universal Design bears additional importance because, I submit, the case of the application for special accessible channel with NBRS as operator more closely paralyzed the development of access technology by specialized developers than it does the provision of employment and library services by CNIB.  And this is where my fifty years of client hood and a couple of years of employment comes to my aid.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             As a long time client and former employee, I confidently concur that the agency was seen by many citizens, businesses and service providers and being the be all and solution and sole service provider for blind and vision impaired Canadians, providing cradle to grave service including in the areas of employment and library services.  But for the greater part of the life of those services, they were provided in a different time and context where the importance of partnerships was less stressed.  Because of this, it is true that other providers of those services to blind and vision impaired folks, unfortunately, therefore, would not believe that would have to take on the role of being service providers to those living with vision loss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             However, of at least equal importance as a reason for the decisions to not provide those services to our population segment was the total lack of call or effort to seek our partnerships.  It is important to note that once CNIB was able to move its library service online, it began seeking partnerships with local public libraries so that as well as accessing the service from a home based computer, it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me.  Mr. Hope.  Excuse me.  Your time has expired.  Can you conclude, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             MR. HOPE:  Yes, I sure can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             MR. HOPE:  So, in conclusion, it is reasonable to say that the application by NBRS and the service it would operate, more paralyzed, when characterized by partnerships and collegial working ‑‑ and, to that extent, I think it's time now for consumer and advocacy organizations to turn our attention in partnership with this regulator to demanding and ensuring that Canadian broadcasters increase their provision of descriptive video services in their programming.  I don't think that that's a goal that NBRS would find in opposition to its efforts.   And, on that note, I thank you, Madame Chair and the commission for this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Geoff Eden.  You have ten minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             MR. EDEN:  Good evening.  My name is Geoff Eden.  I'm delighted to return to the commission.  It's a return visit in support, generally speaking, of described video on the television system in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             A little bit of my history.  I commenced employment with the CNIB in 1972 and stayed there for twenty years, concluding my time with them as a technical aid's coordinator.  During that time, incidentally, I was a manager of Employment Services and I think what my predecessor has just reported, it's a rather accurate and there have been some rather strange comparisons to that particular service and to the library service provided by the CNIB, which I'll try and return to in a moment.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             I concluded my career with the CNIB and moved to the city of Toronto where I was delighted to be appointed to the city's Planning Department and became the city of Toronto's Accessibility Planner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             In that occupation, I had a marvelous opportunity to grow and discover what accessibility meant in many ways.  I had an opportunity to contribute to the development of guidelines, several guidelines that are utilized in serving people with disabilities in the built environment and the retail environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             And currently, I have now been appointed by the Ontario government to serve on a committee that will be looking at a communications standard for the province of Ontario.  So that profession has given me an opportunity to be exposed to a range of disabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             And I think the other thing I have often said to people is that when it comes to a disability, usually the person with the disability has a deeper expertise about that disability than others.  And that, I say, in wanting to dispose of people without a disability wishing to make what they believe to be salient comments on the needs in the lives of peoples with disabilities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             Thinking of myself as the water cooler fellow alluded to earlier, I can't stress enough to you that in daily conversations with friends and family, how often television topics come up and how often the topic is, `did you see what he did last night?'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             `No, I didn't.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             But that sort of thing, if you can't join in that conversation, the possibility for you to keep friendships up and keep floating is definitely somewhat diminished.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             I've often said about my profession with the city of Toronto, I'm with the CNIB, there's one thing I learned that ‑‑ a person and your ideals are not measured by your ideals.  You're measured by the quality of your compromises.  So, in this life we have many compromises to make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             I'm sorry.  I'm using my audio prompter here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             The motives that the National Broadcast Reading Service have been brought into question and I think that comes from a long time consumer concern with a single agency that provided service to people with vision impairment.  And, there was an awful lot of concern because there was nowhere else to go and that monolithic service rightly or wrongly was accused of being too controlling and not easily criticized.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             So there was a long history of angst built up in the community and that spilled over, I believe, to the NBRS proposal.  And it could be interpreted as a single organization being given an opportunity to govern the kind of delivery.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             I suspect that the reality is a great deal different, given people being who they are and the organization being what it is, having served on its board for nearly a dozen years, that there is a lot of room for input from all kinds of people, from employees and from the audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             Like any organization in the communication business, if you don't do what your audience wants, you're not going to be there very long.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             We've been looking at this issue of described video since, in my view, 1994 when City TV first broadcast Casablanca in open description.  It was an experiment, a wonderful experiment.  I cannot tell you how enriching, having seen Casablanca with description was, as opposed to sitting there at guessing what was going on, not knowing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             For example, the famous scene of the spotlight swinging around and going past the windows of Mike's Bar and other things that were happening in the movie where it was all guesswork.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             Leaving on the airplane.  At that point you're not sure what exactly was happening, unless you've had it described that people were leaving on the airplane and leaving the hero in Casablanca.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             One of the other issues that has come out of this is that there's an awful lot of people with vision impairment who've never had the chance to listen to or see, in relative terms, what described video is.  So they don't know what they're missing.  You know?   If you can't read the menu, you certainly can't make selections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             In fact, it comes to that other proposition that I've often used in the lives of people with any kind of communication deficit, is you don't know what you don't know.  So often you need a taste of something and a way to get at it easily, before you can really understand what it is and know that you want it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             And this is another issue.  Hunting for it and trying to use the SAP.  As you saw already in an earlier presentation, how difficult the SAP is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             In my household, my wife won't let me get near the menus.  Or, if the TV quits, there's nobody around to put it back to right and get it back on the air.  And that would be a family disaster of proportions I dare not describe.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             MR. EDEN:  Whatever reasons there may have been, foreign description hasn't made it onto the television.  There has been technical issues and I think that the providers have, perhaps, not given the attention they might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             I occasionally indulge in all kinds of things that maybe aren't truly Canadian.  You know, I eat McDonald's hamburgers and I drink Coco‑Cola and I also like to watch a little bit of junk television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             So, CSI and Law and Order are wonderful programs.  I've had the splendid opportunity to stumble upon a couple of the series on the internet described.  And again, I can't begin to tell you the difference between trying to figure it out when it's on the TV and when it's delivered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             So, having something come over the border, I hope, doesn't create as much concern as it would in the minds of some.  Diversity, after all, it is necessary to enjoy life and I think that having American pop series come in for us to enjoy are every bit as important, especially if we're going to enjoy that water cooler conversation.  That's just reality.  We can't get away from it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             I think it's worth pointing out that with the ever enlarging group of seniors who've lost, commonly lost, sight because of advanced illnesses.  They are still paying for their television and still not getting any value for their money.  And partly because they don't know what value they could get, as I've iterated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             Also, in my experience working for the CNBI, I have the opportunity to probably visit a thousand homes of people who had just lost their sight.  That was a very difficult part of my career.  And one of the observations that was pointed and left me somewhat bruised for life is the fact that people would sit there and try to listen to their television and guess what was going on, hoping that in their declining years that at least they could enjoy their television and pass the long, long days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             And often, you know, you can turn to books from the library, but not everybody likes that.  Not every family works that way.  So, it was often my unhappiness to see people frustrated by the fact that the television was no longer the entertainer they'd hoped it would be when entertainment was something they needed most.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             Now one point that hasn't be raised at all in any of the material that I've discovered, and I'd like you to pay particular attention to it.  As a person who is audio dependent, and I believe that I can speak confidently on this point, that we enjoy audio that's not just minoral and of high fidelity.  The higher the fidelity and the better the multi‑point audio, and particular the better stereo, the better it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             And one of the disappointments of current SAP delivery is that it's a fairly narrow audio band pass and that it's not multi‑directional.  It's not stereo.  And that can detract from many adventure movies, and other movies, when the efforts have been made to make the sound effects stereo, when the efforts have been made to make the music in the movie stereo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             So when you're listening to a movie on SAP, it's certainly better than no description, but again, it's plain, flat, monaural, and if there were a specialty channel through which the real stereo image with high quality sound and description could be delivered, that would be spectacular.  The route for that at the moment is to borrow tapes from the CNIB library with description on them.  And there are some places on the internet where there are some presentations that can be downloaded with description items that are not enclosed by copyright.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry, Mr. Eden.  Can you conclude, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             MR. EDEN:  Yes, I will.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             MR. EDEN:  In conclusion, I hope I've been able to illuminate a couple of points that maybe hadn't been made as clear to you as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             I do believe that there are large numbers of vision impaired people who are not part of the politically sensitive community who really don't care how the delivery happens.  They certainly will care once they've had a taste of it.  And it's almost going to the old story that perhaps we'll discover there's an audience out there that here to for, we've never anticipated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             And my thoughts are, it's like the old tune, you know, how can you keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paris.  If we give them a chance to experience Paris, I think we'll all be delighted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  Mr. Macdonald.

*INTERVENTION


LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             MR. MACDONALD:  Okay.  Thank you very much. My name is Charlie Macdonald.  I'm from Halifax, Nova Scotia.  And, I'm very pleased to come here and speak in support of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             I saw my first descriptive video, it was in the mid nineties when I was down at getting a Seeing Eye dog.  And I was just blown out of the water.  Wow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             I saw a movie that me and my wife saw, together, in the late eighties.  And you know, I never did find out how that movie ended.  It was so scary she had to leave.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             MR. MACDONALD:  I think it was called Dressed to Kill and I was just blown away by that.  And I thought, `wow.  This is something.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             And I came back to Halifax and started talking about this descriptive video.  It's amazing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             I've worked in the disability movement in Nova Scotia for most of my adult life.  I started off as an engineer, but because of my vision loss got involved in the community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             My main career had been as Executive Director of the Nova Scotia Disabled Persons Commission, but I tend to be very involved in my community and the not‑for‑profit sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             I'm chair of the Tetra Society of Halifax.  I'm involved with the Independent Living Resource Centre.  I'm involved with Team Work Co‑operative and I'm very pleased to say that, after hearing this presentation today that blew me out of the water on accessible TV, that I'm going to be joining the board of the National Broadcast Reading Service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             And I thought the presentation today ‑‑ I just can't contain my excitement over accessible TV, to tell you the truth.  It was just wonderful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             I thought I'd address my comments to three points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             One, around why accessible TV, I guess, from a personal perspective.  Is this the solution?  And is the charitable model the way to deliver it?  And I guess I'll try to focus on those three points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             Why accessible TV?  And under that category I'd want to talk, I guess, in terms of being included in my family to start with.  Being and included in my community to broaden it a bit, my local community.  But also being included as a Canadian.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             And I was really pleased to hear the question about Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             First of all, being included in your family.  That's very important to me.  We do a lot of things as a family.  I have a fifteen year old daughter and a fourteen year old son.  We enjoy doing things together.  We enjoy watching TV together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             And I think it's important to note they're all sighted and not one of them is comfortable at describing what's going on in the screen as we're watching the TV to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             Whether I'm watching alone with my wife, I mean it was fine, the first few dates.  This is great, she can whisper in my ear.  This is what's going on.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             MR. MACDONALD:  But soon that tires.  My fifteen year old daughter, God bless her, I lover her to death, but, `Dad, leave me alone.'


LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             And you know, growing up ‑‑ as my children grew up, many instances when I would have a child on my knee, be watching TV with them together, and want to participate a little bit more, providing a little bit of context to what's going on in the program and being unable to do it because the child cannot explain it to me and, therefore, I cannot explain it to the child.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             I was really pleased to hear about, hey, accessible ads.  This would be wonderful.  Not that I'm particularly fond of ads, but sometimes many ads today are very non‑descriptive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             I was sitting with my son.  He was about ten years old at the time.  We were watching TV.  And a commercial came on.  It was someone singing and dancing.  Singing wonderful song and it ended.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             I said, `Patrick, what were they advertising?'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             He said, `I don't know dad.  It's Vi‑ag‑ra.'

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             MR. MACDONALD:  And I lost that learning moment.  It took me by surprise.  It's like, `oh my God.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             And he says, `what's that, dad?'

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             MR. MACDONALD:  And because it took me by such surprise, it was like I blew it, right.  This was my chance to have that father and son conversation.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             MR. MACDONALD:  But that's, I mean, not to bring too much humor to it, but that's the kind of situations you run into of feeling excluded as a family member participating in family activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             So that's why, number one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             Why, number two, being a member of our community.  Being included.  And I would ask you to think back at times when you felt excluded, perhaps, of not being involved and engaged and informed.  And how that made you felt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             It might have been once instance.  But think of it in terms of daily.  Think of it in terms of, and Geoff brings the water fountain analogy.  But losing that very important context on very important material that engages you in your community, and how important that it.  So, I think that's one critical aspect that we don't want to lose sight of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399             The third piece of being an engaged and included Canadian.  Canadian and access to Canadian heritage ‑‑ I'm a really history television buff.  I love to watch the documentaries in Canada's role in war, Canada's role in peace, Canada's history in the world.  I want full access to that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12400             I'm a blind Canadian, but I'm a subscriber to cable TV.  I pay taxes federally, provincially, municipally.  I'm an engaged member of my community.  I want to know fully about Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12401             And there's nothing more frustrating than watching a documentary on Canada.  For example, Canada's war in one of the Great Wars and the camera will break off to a person, maybe, explaining the situation from the German point of view, for example.  And then it's captions, right.  So, you lose ten minutes of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402             It's like, `well, what did he say?'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12403             And that does occur, as well, when French is used.  Get know, and I'm ashamed to say that I'm not well versed in the French language.  But, without description, I lose total focus of what's happening in the program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404             So, those are just three quick examples of why accessible television is important, important to me, and I believe it's important to the blind community and the vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12405             I got a rude awakening coming up on the plane today.  And it's not specific to this, but it's like Geoff and Gord were speaking of Universal Design.  Flying in one of the new Air Canada Embraer planes and the steward comes and says, `would you like an ear phone, listen to some music, watch some TV?'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12406             `Oh, thank you.  I'd love that.'


LISTNUM 1 \l 12407             `Well, here's your earphone.  Oh, by the way, it's a touch screen.  So, when I'm finished with the coffee, if there's something you'd like to see, I'll come back and push the button for you.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408             And I mean that, in this day and age with the technology we have, is just not acceptable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409             My second point is around is this the way to deliver the service?  I mean will this be the ultimate answer?  And, my answer, and I think the answer of most persons, would be no.  Not until the day ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12410             And I love the whether channel.  When I first heard of the whether channel, I said, `that'll never go.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12411             What does my mother watch twenty‑four seven?  The weather channel.  But do you know how inaccessible it is to blind Canadians?  When that channel is accessible, I'll say we're there.  And I'm very much a supporter of the weather channel, by the way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12412             The SAP system is very inaccessible.  I'm an engineer by training.  I'm very tech savvy.  I have yet to indecently access described video in my home.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12413             We have two rules in my home.  They're unwritten rules and they're rules on me.  If I see a paper, a newspaper, a magazine, or a piece of paper on the floor I don't throw it out.  And when I'm in the TV room, all I do is turn the TV on and off and switch channels.  I'm not allowed to touch anything else, just like Geoff.  It's a very complicated system for individuals and it just doesn't work.  And I can't reiterate that enough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12414             People I know in Nova Scotia are very, very, frustrated with the level of access.  A show will be advertised as being ‑‑ and even if you get the SAP system, it's not there.  And if I touch the TV, all we get is ghosts and it just doesn't work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12415             I sometimes think we live in the best of times, but we live in the worst of times, to quote a famous opening of a famous book.  We have all this technology.  We have screen reading devices.  We have scanning equipment.  I can put a machine on my back, a hand held machine using satellite imagery, satellite systems and get a descriptive walk through the city of Halifax, what corner I'm at, what store I'm beside.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12416             We have all this wonderful technology that is just out of the reach of individuals who are blind.  It's too expensive.  They can't learn how to use it.  It's just not applicable in their life.  But there it is, and I would submit that that's the case with descriptive video.  It's just out of reach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12417             This is a pragmatic, reasonable approach to get this in the homes of persons who are blind and visually impaired, and I fully support it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12418             The charitable organization point.  You know, on the continuum of not‑for‑profit organizations, there's a broad range of philosophies and values of organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12419             I was very pleased to see the presentation of the National Broadcasting Reading Service.  I didn't see a hint of paternalism in this presentation.  I didn't see a hint of the charitable approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12420             I'm involved in many, many organizations and the values and the principles that an organization follow, can be seen in the activities of the individuals that represent that organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12421             This is a business model.  It's cross‑subsidization.  It's user‑pay.  It treats people as adults who can make decisions, who can watch what they want to and I can't reiterate that enough.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12422             I chair an organization called the Tetris Society of Metro Halifax.  Someone may call that a charitable organization.  What it is, is professional engineers who bring skills to a community, who because there are no accessible thermostats, no accessible toys for children, no accessible medicine pumps for individuals with quadriplegia that put volunteer hours into designing that equipment to support those individuals.  That's not a charitable model.  That's a community development model.  That's a model that brings the capacities of communities together to solve solutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12423             Is it universal design?  No.  It's a pragmatic and effective way to address individuals' needs.  And I see this as well.  this is bringing capacity of an organization that has the where withal, the knowledge, the values, and the willingness to take this bold move.  And I think now is the time.  So, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12424             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12425             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.  I admire your accomplishments, your sense of community and your sprit of volunteerism.  I had some questions on Universal Design, which you have all addressed very well.  That arisen out of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12426             So, I only have one question remaining, and that's from, I believe it's yours, Mr. Eden's written intervention where you were saying, `personally, I had to hunt for and purchase an obsolete VCR that has talking menus in order to be able to select a SAP signal.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12427             And then you said later that then you received a SAP receiver from NBRS, `which gives me instant one button access.'

LISTNUM 1 \l 12428             So, did there used to be SAP equipment out there, which was made the programming more accessible?  That's the question.  And, right now, is NBRS giving out these SAP receivers that makes it a little bit better?  Or it's still not workable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12429             MR. EDEN:  Well, I think we had high hopes.  I better use the microphone.  Excuse me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12430             I think there were high hopes that SAP might be a solution to a problem of chasing the National Broadcasting Reading Service voice print all over the dial.  Different areas have voice print on different dials.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12431             So the history is that SAP was the fall back position and then it was necessary to find a way to help vision impaired and blind people try SAP.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12432             I found this VCR.  I had to spend an awful lot more money than I needed to to find it.  It had already gone off he market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12433             So there was a time when there was a talking VCR made by Zenith.  Blind people will still fight over them if they can find them because it does mean you can use it for other SAP uses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12434             And there was an attempt to make a one button SAP receiver.  A few of them were made.  The problem is, again, if you don't know where to find it, you don't know what it is, and you don't know what it'll do for you, you can't be bothered with it.  There was no way to send that message to people, we have a SAP receiver, because you needed a SAP receiver to hear that you could get a SAP receiver.  That was the dog‑on problem.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12435             MR. EDEN:  So, we're just completely defeated by the process.  And you know, even today, just to round that out for you, the CNIB is not sure how to communicate with its vision impaired clients.  Do you send it in print?  Do you send it in large print?  That doesn't work for some.  Send it in brail?  Yeah, there's a few brail readers.  Do you send it, maybe, as an audio disc?  And they're going to try experimenting with that.  But there are even people who don't have CD players.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12436             So, how in the world do you communicate with those who've not got a remaining easily used modality of communication?  Does that help?

COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12437             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dr. Hope, Mr. Eden and Mr. Macdonald, thank you very much for your contribution here this afternoon and to these proceedings.  We have no further questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12438             And for the benefit of all intervenors, we will be taking a break now for ten minutes.  But we will be completing Phase II of these proceedings this evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12439             So, we will now take a break and we will resume at seven thirty‑five.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1923 / Suspension à 1923

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1933 / Reprise à 1933

LISTNUM 1 \l 12440             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and gentlemen, order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12441             Before we hear the next intervenor, I would just like to put on the record that in a previous exchange, the whole sale fee for NBRS was quoted at forty per cent.  And it is, in fact, twenty per cent, as it is in their application ‑‑ what did I say?  Huh.  It's late.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12442             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In an exchange, in a previous exchange, the quoted whole sale fee for NBRS was forty cents per subscriber.  It is, in fact, twenty cents.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12443             THE SECRETARY:  And now we will be hearing Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.  Please present yourself for the record.  And you have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12444             MR. RAE:  Thank you, Madame Chair and members of the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12445             My name is John Rae.  I'm National President of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.  That is a volunteer position, one of the several that I hold now that I have the good fortune to have retired from a thirty year career with the Ontario government.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12446             During my life, I have been blind for most of my fifty‑eight years and have been a long time human rights and disability rights advocate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12447             I provide those pieces of biographical information only because I intend to connect them during this presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12448             Madame Chair, members of the commission, I come here today to make three or four fundamental points.  However, as the day has gone on, so has my list of points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12449             I'm like most people.  I want my carrot cake and the opportunity to eat it, too.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12450             In fact, I hope there will still be some left in my kitchen when I get home later tonight.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12451             What I mean is I want more BBS, as much as anyone else does.  I love it, want more of it, believe in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12452             Today's debate is not about more BBS.  I want to be clear on that point.  It is not about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12453             It is about how it should be delivered, by who, and by what we believe is the appropriate of the regulator, namely the CRTC.  That's what today's debate is about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12454             You're being presented, Madame Chair, with two fundamentally different views of the world.  One that believes in special.  And one that does not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12455             Now, I'm a bit of a history nut.  Of my reading of history, I've read a lot about this notion of special but equal.  And what my reading of history tells me is that in most cases, if not all cases, special, yes.  Equal not very often, maybe never.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12456             Let's give you a prime example that goes on in this city and across Canada and across North America.  I refer to parallel transit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12457             If you or I, after this evening's proceedings conclude, want to go out for dinner, we can hop on a bus and go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12458             If we subsequently decide later on we want to go and see a movie if we can still make the nine o'clock or nine thirty showing, we can do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12459             If we want to go out and have coffee with our friend afterwards, we can do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12460             If I were a wheelchair user, I might have to book my ride at least two days in advance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12461             And so, the notion of so‑called parallel, that word to me strikes me as being equal or equivalent.  It sure isn't equal.  And just ask any wheelchair user who has to book their ride two days in advance and hope it shows up.  They'll tell you the same.  It's not equal.  It just is not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12462             Now, in a practical sense, in any community there is a finite range of expertise, energy and resources, even if this issue is given twenty cents more per month per cable subscriber.  And choices get made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12463             And let's face it.  It's hard for anyone to argue that when you spend ten thousand dollars towards a specialty service, that's ten thousand dollars that isn't available to help the regular broadcasting system do what it should do and that is increase the range of described programming it offers to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12464             This is a fundamental choice, Madame Chair.  And, you can't have it both ways.  It doesn't work.  Doesn't work that way.  I'm sorry.  It doesn't work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12465             And it's ‑‑ we are not being suggested for a year or two.  Once a structure, an infrastructure of this magnitude gets put into place, it will be this difficult to dismantle it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12466             And yes, I do believe that the presence of such a delivery mechanism will be used by the regular system to further drag its feet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12467             And we have heard, already today, several instances whereby regular broadcasters, who were mandated by you, the regulators of the television industry in this country, are not following through on the commitments they made to you in hearings before you.  Shame.  Shame.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12468             So we call upon you to enforce the agreements that you have made with the broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12469             To go beyond that, perhaps, our community did not call upon you as strongly as the deaf community did.  Because the deaf community, of course, did get their captioning without a special system.  And, if you were to ever suggest to the deaf community that they should have started out with a separate system, I know the reaction you would have gotten.  You may not, but I sure do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12470             Right now the deaf community in Ontario has a human rights complaint against the movie industry in an effort to make all movies theatres provided with rear captioning.  I don't know what the outcome of that case will be.  We'll see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12471             Perhaps we should have asked more and expected more of you.  Perhaps we should have.  I guess we should have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12472             In terms of the water cooler idea.  Yeah.  That's important.  I agree with that.  It's one of the points that have been made to you today in support of the application that, I think, is equally usable by those who are here in opposition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12473             The water cooler argument only works if the applicant can guarantee that Little Mosque on the Prairie will be aired in a described version on the specialty channel the same night that it is aired on CBC.  Otherwise, the discussion at the water cooler tomorrow morning will not be ‑‑ will not include me.  It won't help.  I may hear about it two or three ‑‑ I may see it two or three days later, but the discussion at the water cooler is going to take place tomorrow morning, not two or three days down the road.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12474             So, without that guarantee, that doesn't help.  It's a nice idea, but it doesn't help.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12475             And so, it's not good enough just to come before you and suggest that you not do this.  That's not good enough.  I know that.  There are better ways to deal with this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12476             What should have happened is this ‑‑is the energy and expertise that has gone into this application on both sides, should have come together and worked hard to help make the existing system accessible and usable by us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12477             Surely in 2006, no one is going to suggest to me that it isn't technically possible to manufacture a television remote that we can't use.  Come on.  No one is going to tell me that.  Come on.  I reject it out of hand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12478             The fact that it may not be readily available, which I acknowledge, is another example of how it has been very easy for the regular system and the regular community to ignore our needs.  Sometimes because they don't know, sometimes because they don't see us as a serious market, and sometimes for far more pejorative reasons than those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12479             But, I'm not interested in talking about motives.  I'm interested in talking about results.  And as a said earlier, the amount of money that's being proposed for this service, twenty cents per subscriber per month ‑‑ and I ask you, how many television shows would that make it possible to audio describe?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12480             And Madame Chair, we're not talking about twenty cents per subscriber this year, just this year.  When you ‑‑ if you establish this group, we're talking about twenty cents in the second or third year and eventually, inevitably, it will become thirty cents or forty cents.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12481             This is money that should be better spent by ‑‑ if it's going to cost twenty cents per subscriber to help make the regular system fully accessible to us, that's fine to me.  But use those resources, use that energy, use that expertise in the direction of Universal Design, of making our lives integrative, rather than special.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12482             Writing for the Supreme Court, just on Friday, Madam Justice Rosalie Abella writing in the case of Counsel of Canadians with Disabilities versus Via Rail, indicated that the principles of human rights must be taken account of in decision by the CTA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12483             Well, if it must be taken account of by the CTA, clearly, it must be taken account by other regulatory bodies including the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12484             And so, in my view, human rights require integration, require helping our community to get what we all want in an integrative setting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12485             Now, let me finish, I think, with a short story because some of you, as commissioners, may be dying to ask me a question something like this:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12486             `Well, John, if it's going to take ‑‑ I hear what you say, that it's gonna take a few extra years for this to be done the way you want it done.  Are you prepared to wait a little longer?'


LISTNUM 1 \l 12487             That's not an easy ‑‑ that's mot a pleasant question.  And if you were to ask it of me, Madame Chair, I would have to tell you that's not the first time.  I've been there before.  I've had that similar predicament back in 1979 when we were fighting in Ontario for the first Human Rights Protection for Persons with Disabilities in our province.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12488             And we as a coalition had to deal with that very same question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12489             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry.  Can you conclude, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12490             MR. RAE:  I'm about to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12491             THE SECRETARY:  Your time has expired.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12492             MR. RAE:  And we came to the conclusion after deliberations, if it's going to take a few more years to do it properly, to do it right, to do it in an integrative way, we would prefer not to have to wait, but if that's what it's going to take, that's how it has to be and we made the decision to do it that way.  And the result was a much better human rights code a couple of years later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12493             And so, we urge rejection of this application and a willingness on the part of the CRTC to work with our community to help make the television viewing experience accessible as it should be, as we deserve it to be, as human rights demand it ought to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12494             Thank you, Madame Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12495             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Rae, thank you very much.  It's obvious that both your written submission and your oral presentation here today are quite complete and informative and we have no questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12496             MR. RAE:  No, they are complete.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12497             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12498             MR. RAE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12499             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12500             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  Now I would ask Penny Leclair to maker her presentation.  You have ten minutes.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12501             MS LECLAIR:  Hello.  I'm on, am I?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12502             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, we can hear you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12503             MS LECLAIR:  Now that I'm here, I hope I can speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12504             I'd like to thank the panel and the commission in total for the opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12505             I'm here because the commission took responsibility to pay for my access.  I go to school.  And I go to school because the college takes responsibility and provides the access.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12506             And I am making this personal intervention because I believe that every broadcaster has the responsibility to do more so that every single citizen that sits in front of the TV and tunes into their program can see it, can hear it, or have some kind of a way to understand it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12507             And that responsibility lies with the people who produce it.  Not with my pocket book to increase it for a special channel.  I want to be proud of Canada, where businesses work together and care.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12508             But you know what?  They don't care.  Everything that we achieve as blind, visually impaired, and deaf blind people have always come from increased regulation.  It's not a very nice fact and it doesn't feel very nice to be on the receiving end.  When every gain has to come from government to tell people, `you must allow a guide dog in a taxi.'


LISTNUM 1 \l 12509             You must do this, you must do that.  But without regulations, we get nowhere because people in this country and in Canada are too busy making the buck.  And that's our reality and I'm asking this commission to please understand that if you decide to increase a number ‑‑ another channel and charge everybody for it, you're going to be sending out a message that other people don't have to really spend an awful lot of time and effort to make things accessible.  That is the message you will send out, even if you don't intend to.  What other message do you think people would think?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12510             And then if other channels can get some of their DVS through the NBRS, well that's a sweet deal.  That's nice.  But that's not the way it should happen.  And certainly not by increasing the cost to each subscriber.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12511             I'm here not because I belong to one organization or another.  I'm here because many millions of blind people don't belong to organizations.  We don't have to be.  We're tax payers.  And we like to be treated equally by every business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12512             When I want to go and have something to eat, am I expected to go to a special service to provide a menu in brail?  No.  No, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12513             I will advocate, and I have advocated.  I was part of the person who got Red Lobster right here in Vancouver, in Ottawa, to give us some kind of access.  And now, they have a brail menu and they did it.  And hooray for them and more businesses would get that message if we decided to do it right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12514             Deaf people worked hard and they achieved slowly.  They didn't wait for twelve years.  They got a little bit and a little bit and a little bit more and they got it from the people who were producing it.  They didn't ask for any special consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12515             I'm very proud of the fact that they did it right and that's why I'm here because I want to be proud of the fact that I did something today.  That I spent my time, my effort, my energy and whatever mental capacity that I have to do something so we can do it right and continue to do it right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12516             You know, the Federal Government has just given businesses the opportunity to right crossed over two years.  If we take that opportunity before another government takes it away, we can regulate that more people do something for DVS.  And spend some money and get it written off over two years.  So we've gotten federal incentive without even really having specifically to do with us.  But it can be applied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12517             We've got all the ingredients for everybody to have more.  So do it right.  Do it right and do it so that everybody has that responsibility.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12518             And in conclusion, I just want to say that it's never easy going against big organizations who claim to speak for blind people.  CNIB, CCB and they've got their thousands of members.  It's never easy because you're not expected to do that kind of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12519             But I think that in today, more people are speaking out.  But unfortunately, a lot of people just don't get what can be done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12520             But the system, when it doesn't pass through the signals so that the SAP can be picked up, when the system makes that difficult to access, the system's broken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12521             Let's define the problem, not fix it with some band‑aid solution.  That's hardly fair to society and it's hardly fair to say that's the way the commission would choose to fix it.  Let's fix the problem.  Let's talk about what we can do about it.  Surely to God, there's got to be a way.  But to give an organization a special license and call it a fix is short changing people who have vision loss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12522             And to say that one channel can provide twenty‑four hours and twenty‑four hours I can go and watch an accessible program.  Well, do you know what?  It's probably not going to be doing anything in my interest at the time I want to watch it.  So what the heck good is it going to be?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12523             Twenty‑four hours of what?  And in the best, it's in the interests ‑‑ gonna provide programming that's of interest to the blind community.  What's that mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12524             I got news for you.  The blind community exists.  And it is representative of all kinds of people.  People lose their vision.  You don't have to have a set of different interests to lose your vision.  Anybody can lose their vision.  Anybody can have an interest that should be accessible on a channel that's producing it, not by an accessible channel that isn't really accessible to everybody.  It's just going to be accessible to the blind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12525             And to even suggest that they can do programming that's of special interest to blind people is very disturbing to me because it leaves a very awful impression that such a thing could be done.  It can't be done.  It will provide some programming for some people.  And you can ask another set of blind people and we'll get a different set of interests because we represent the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12526             So blindness isn't something you catch because you have an interest set.  It can happen to anyone.  It's unfortunate, but it's real.  And that's why every single broadcaster has to have the responsibility to do something about it.  And it has to be regulated.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12527             So please, use your authority because you are the only ones who can make it happen.  Right now, three or four per cent, when it's on a system that's broken, no wonder we're down to so little.  And money's being wasted to produce it and it's not being passed off, and that's pretty sickening, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12528             So I'd like to thank you listening to me.  I'd like to thank you for all the work you've done today in listening to all this because you've become educated into something you didn't know before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12529             But I hope to God that every single person looks beyond the band‑aid solution to a solution that will take us long ‑‑ in the long term longer.  But it's a solution Canada can be proud of.  Every person, not just blind people, every person.  That we stood up and we had more people doing more and we worked together as a society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12530             So it's your opportunity to send a message and I'm looking forward to the message and I hope it's the right one.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12531             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Leclair for your contribution and your participation in these hearings this evening.  Your position is quite clear in both your oral submission and your written intervention.  And we have no further questions for you.  Thank you very, very much.  Madame Secretary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12532             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Rogers to come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12533             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself and you have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12534             MR. LIND:  Thank you.  Good evening.  My name is Phil Lind and I am vice chairman of Rogers Communications Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12535             And with me today are Ken Engelhart, vice president of Regulatory Affairs.  Pam Dunsmore, vice president Regulatory Broad Band and Video, on my right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12536             I'm also joined by Michael Allen from our Programming Department, Rogers Cable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12537             And on my left, Suzanne Blackwell, president of Giganomics and Lorie Assheton‑Smith of Lorie D. Assheton‑Smith Professional Corporation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12538             Madame Chair, like a number of other intervenors, we are perplexed and troubled by this proceeding.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12539             At a time when Canadians are turning to unregulated platforms, it is hard to believe that we are talking about introducing new restrictions on consumer choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12540             It is also hard to believe that we're talking about using section 9(1)(h) to protect popular services that have had twenty years to build a national audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12541             It's equally baffling that we're talking about using section 9(1)(h) to bolster the business case of applicants for digital service with no broad consumer appeal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12542             And finally, it is surprising to us that we are still talking about asymmetrical policies and regulations that limit the ability of cable distributors to compete fairly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12543             With all due respect, we think it is time for a reality check.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12544             Let me start with the issue of regulatory symmetry.  We understand that the commission is not revisiting the digital migration framework policy here.  However, in order to understand the Rogers position on these applications, we must explain the significant and possible unintended implications of this policy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12545             As a result of the mirroring applications set out in the migration framework, cable operators will have much less packaging flexibility than their competitors for years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12546             Cable subscribers will have to pay for a big basic service that includes the existing dual status services.  Satellite and Telco providers, on the other hand, will be free to offer their subscribers a much smaller basic package.  This, frankly, is unacceptable in a competitive market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12547             We agree with the commission that the dual status designations have served their purpose and are no longer appropriate or necessary.  But this cannot be the case only for satellite and Telco BDUs.  It has to be the case for all of us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12548             So let me turn now to the issue of digital basic coverage and the use of section 9(1)(h).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12549             This proceeding is based on the premise the basic service should reflect a broad and comprehensive range of policy objectives.  However, the Broadcasting Act makes no reference to the concept of basic service, either analog or digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12550             As a result, we believe that the premise underlying this proceeding is flawed.  A satellite basic service has satisfied the objectives of the Act over the past ten years.  Why would a similar basic service on cable not do the same?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12551             Given this flawed premise, you will not be surprised to hear that we also think that the 9(1)(h) criteria are difficult, in fact, problematic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12552             In fact, we think that most of the criteria are so subjective as to be almost meaningless.  The only relevant criteria for 9(1)(h) status, in our view, is that of exceptional importance.  By definition, services will rarely meet this threshold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12553             Would the objectives of the Act be at risk in the absence of a mandatory basic coverage for any of the applicants in this proceeding?  We don't think so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12554             The dual status services certainly do not need 9(1)(h) status.  They've had the benefit of universal carriage on analog for twenty years.  That's a long time by any measure.  They have strong, well known brands and loyal audiences.  And they have two streams of revenue, stable revenue.  These services are the regulatory jackpot winners.  They need no further protection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12555             In a competitive video market, distributors must respond to consumers' demand.  That's what the market place is all about.  If the majority of viewers want the weather network or News World, CBC News world on basic, distributors will find a way to meet that demand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12556             So you might ask, if cable companies are going to carry these services on basic anyway, why the opposition to mandatory 9(1)(h) carriage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12557             Well, Mr. Chairman ‑‑ Madame Chairman, this kind of thinking is out of step with the direction most regulatory authorities are taking.  The default should always be to rely on market forces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12558             As for the other applicants, we do not think it is appropriate to ask Canadians to pay millions of dollars to subsidize these services.  We say this for two reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12559             First, they have narrow target audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12560             Second, they're programming is not unique.  Much of it is already available somewhere else in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12561             Not surprisingly, a recent survey by strategic counsel commission by us confirmed that a substantial majority of Canadians have posed a mandatory inclusion of these services on basic.  And (indiscernible) services, they have posed mandatory.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12562             And this leads me to my last point.  Customers want and expect more control over their TV programming.  You have heard this over and over again.  We hear this daily from our customers.  They are growing weary of regulations that require them to take and pay for services they do not want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12563             Indeed, eight of ten respondents to the Strategic Counsel Survey said that basic cable subscription should only include only a very limited group of channels with broad appeal.  Other channels should be available to customers who want them and are prepared to pay for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12564             Granting 9(1)(h) status to any of these applicants, we'd send a sobering message to Canadian TV viewers.  It would tell them that despite the flexibility of digital technology, they will still be force fed services they do not want because it is good for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12565             In short, it would tell them that digital is just like analog, at least if they are a cable subscriber.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12566             Customers don't want more rules.  Consumers don't want more rules.  They want more choice.  Satellite and digital consumers with mandatory service on digital basic does not provide that choice.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12567             We urge the commission to step back and consider the larger picture.  The real threat to the system is not the failure to mandate digital basic carriage for everyone.  It's the failure to recognize and respond to the changing tastes and expectations of Canadian consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12568             It makes no sense to use last century's regulatory tools to address this century's policy challenges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12569             Thank you, Madame Chair, and we would be pleased to answer, or attempt to answer, any questions that you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12570             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12571             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do I understand it ‑‑ panel, thank you for coming, by the way.  Do I understand it that Rogers does pass through the SAP on described video?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12572             MS DUNSMORE:  Yes, we do pass through the SAP on analog for conventional television stations.  So are we talking analog or digital, or both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12573             COMMISIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And, digital you do not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12574             MS DUNSMORE:  Digital we do.  Digital we do it for all of our ‑‑ all the services that currently have DVS.  So, in the vast majority of our systems, we are passing through the SAP.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12575             We've filed that report with the CRTC on February, 19 and it's all there in gory detail.   But we are doing a very good job on passing the SAP through ‑‑ the DVS through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12576             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, if we did a 9(1)(h) order in relation to the accessibility channel and it would only apply to BDUs, which did not pass through the SAP on digital, which did not have a single button on their remote for SAP, and which did not have ninety per cent accuracy as to the provisioning of described video in their guides, you wouldn't have a problem?  You want them again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12577             MS DUNSMORE:  If you could give them to me one more time.  Yup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12578             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It would be 9(1)(h) would apply to all BDUs that did not pass through their SAP on digital, that did not have a single button on their remote for SAP, and that did not have ninety per cent accuracy as to the provisioning of described video in their guides, because a lot of people are saying, they said it was going to be described and it wasn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12579             MS DUNSMORE:  I'll just pass over to Michael for a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12580             MR. ALLEN:  I'm sort of here to speak to business points.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12581             As Pam mentioned, we do pass through the SAP.  Beyond that, we have a very high penetration of digital households, and now exceeding fifty per cent and continuing to grow at a significant rate, albeit slowing somewhat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12582             With respect to the button on the remote, you heard described this morning to you, a button on a remote, on a VCR, that basically operated the SAP on an analog system.  The SAP process on the digital boxes is slightly different in that you can select from more than one language.  So you can't just simply push SAP.  You press SAP and select the language.  And this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12583             There are two principle manufactures of set top boxes: Scientific Atlanta and Motorola.  The majorities of ours our Scientific Atlanta and we use, pardon me, we use Motorola in Atlantic Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12584             We do not control what these manufacturers manufacture.  They are large American manufacturers and the U.S. cable industry, which is larger than the Canadian one, tends to have more interaction with them to set standards, although we clearly attempt to, because we have special needs in this market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12585             There are, however, a number of manufacturers of remotes.  In other words, we can attain remotes from sources other than those two manufacturers that will operate.  We are, for example, at the moment looking into big button remotes and other features on the remotes that will assist users.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12586             I can't answer you, sitting here, as to whether or not there is remote out there that will function on a one button SAP.  I suspect not because there are multiple languages.  But, we will be shortly visiting with the equipment manufacturers and we'll inquire as to whether or not it's possible to get a single SAP button, single button SAP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12587             With respect to the accuracy of DVS and the guide, again, we do not manufacture the guides.  We do source the content for the guides from a Canadian supplier, but the guide is restricted by the number of fields available for data to be input in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12588             I can't give you an answer right now, sitting here.  But, we can undertake to get that for you as to whether there is room in the guide to put in the amount of accuracy with respect to DVS you're looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12589             But understand that the guide, also, is not something that's under our control.  It comes from a third party.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12590             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you wouldn't have a problem with a 9(1)(h) that would only be applicable to BDUs, which do not pass through the SAP on described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12591             MR. ALLEN:  I'll let Pam answer that.

COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In digital, by the way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12592             MS DUNSMORE:  I don't think that would be a problem for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12593             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12594             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12595             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  I've read your intervention.  I want to know why you think, specifically, NBRS would not meet the 9(1)(h) test.  And I don't need to hear you on the issue of revenues at the whole sale rate and that.  It's just why don't they meet the exceptional importance test and the financial criteria, specifically?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12596             MR. ENGELHART:  I guess the way that we look at 9(1)(h), it's a service that the broadcasting system, the broadcasting distribution system, really relies on.  That's what we think the purpose of 9(1)(h) should be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12597             So, we don't think the NBRS service would qualify using that criteria.  Obviously, the, you know, one has a lot of sympathy for their request, and one would like to see a way that it would be carried, certainly.  But, I don't think you could say that the broadcasting system requires the NBRS service to be mandatory.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12598             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Not even in light of section 31P of the objectives for ‑‑ regarding ‑‑ for disabled?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12599             MR. ENGELHART:  You know, in the time when the Act was written, there was kind of capacity constraints.  There was a limited number of analog channels and the Act reflected the fact that in an environment of limited spectrum, the regulator has to make sure that some things that the market might not require get on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12600             Now we have hundreds and hundreds of channels.  There's room for a lot of discretionary services.  So, you know, the section you quoted provides ‑‑ requires that we provide programming for the disabled as resources become available.  We've got lots of room for all the niche services, and they should be carried.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12601             The question is whether they should be subsidized by other subscribers.  That's really what 9(1)(h) is all about.  And, can you really say that the system requires it?  I'm not sure you can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12602             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  So you think that they should be carried, but not as a 9(1)(h), so they should negotiate their own fee?  Their own wholesale fee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12603             MR. ENGELHART:  Yes.  I think that would be the place to start.  If problems develop, the commission might have to step in, but I would think that's the place to start.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12604             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  And then resort to 9(1)(h) to resolve that dispute?  Is that the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12605             MR. ENGELHART:  You know, there's been, in the past anyway, people have used benefits, money, to help groups like that out.  So there might be other ways of getting a subsidy to them, other than a subsidy from the general body of subscribers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12606             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Just generally ‑‑ I should describe to you this experience.  I live in North Van in Shaw territory, so I'm not ‑‑ so I don't get video description.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12607             So when I was preparing for this application I thought, I really need to know more about how to access it and all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12608             So first, then, I have to find, this was during our BC spring break, I had to find a friend who had Express View.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12609             Then I had to find a friend who was in town that week so that I could go by, make an appointment to go watch the ‑‑ watch TV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12610             So, I did go over, found a friend, had a two hour window.  And then, we navigated.  There were a number of channels that said it was a channel with DV following it.  But ‑‑ so we thought, okay, that's described video.  But no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12611             You have to find them within those channels, the program which has DV in front of it.  That would be a program that's described video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12612             So, I found one program.  It was Prime Time on Sunday night, 6:45, 7:00, and it was an animation.  That was one program.  Do you think that's good enough?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12613             MR. ENGELHART:  No, I think the service that they describe, you know, it sounds ‑‑ it sounds pretty good in the sense that you'd be able to turn to one channel and there would be the ‑‑ or the described video right there without hitting any extra buttons.  It would be sort of open all the time and they would make sure that the attractive shows were on there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12614             So, it does sound like a good idea to me.  Do I think that a very niche service like that to an obviously deserving group is a 9(1)(h) service?  No, I don't.  But I do think it should be on the dial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12615             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  If NBRS were given 9(1)(h) status and it was all, you know, all BDUs had to carry it, would you come to the commission to ask for lowering of expectations of your existing descriptive video obligations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12616             MR. ENGELHART:  I mean, our attitude with these things is, we're a cable company.  We should pass through all the signals.  The signals are there, and it's our job to pass them through.  That's always been our philosophy, and we will pass through the entire signal and all its components and sub‑components.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12617             COMMISSIONE DEL VAL:  So, to the Ms Penny Leclair's and those others who fear the backlash that it would be used as an excuse to lower the existing expectations, what would you tell them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12618             MS DUNSMORE:  We would tell them that at Rogers, we're going to continue to serve our visually impaired customers as best we can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12619             I think that it's fair to say that described video is a relatively new development.  It's technologically complicated and it's taken some time to sort out exactly how it works with respect to SA boxes, Motorola boxes, whether or not you yourself are putting in the DVS, or whether it's being handed to you by one of the SRDUs.  All of these things have an impact on the accessibility of DVS to our customer base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12620             So, we are actively working through these issues because we have a vested interest in serving our customers as best we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12621             So, I can't imagine that at Rogers we would do anything less but continue down that path in order to serve our visually impaired customer base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12622             So, I don't think that then argues to have necessarily the additional service on a 9(1)(h) basis, but certainly on an optional basis we'd support that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12623             MR. LIND:  And, Commissioner, we have generally ‑‑ over the years we have been ahead of the curve on this subject.  And we have generally, over the years we have been ahead of the curve on this subject and we were using benefits money.  Earlier we developed a lot of this NBRS service.  So, it ‑‑ I think, for two or three years we paid for it, one of our benefits.  So, we've been with this service a long time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12624             MR. ALLEN:  Specifically, what Phil is referring to, is we initially funded the Ontario Closed Captioning Consumer Association and assisted in developing out‑caption decoder technology as part of public benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12625             And the very specific issue that Phil was describing with the NBRS, in the course of the acquisition we claim hunter.  At that time, the NBRS was without funds.  They had had a grant that expired, that was not being renewed.  The entity was going to cease operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12626             However, we committed to keep it funded for five years, which we did.  And then, of course, in the in term they obtained the basic subscriber rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12627             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  Thank you, Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12628             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12629             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Lind or Mr. Engelhart, I understand that you're the BDU representative around the table this evening.  But, you are an integrated company with components and broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12630             And we heard Mr. Rae today saying that the commission should take into consideration the Supreme Court decision that was issued last Thursday or Friday regarding Via Rail and he was arguing that it has a bearing on the decisions that the commission will have to make over the coming years.  Do you have any comments to make on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12631             MR. LIND:  Well, I was very interested in the decision.  It affected, I think, a hundred and forty rail cars were bought in Europe by Via, and they weren't at all accessible or acceptable to handicapped people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12632             So, when you go out of your way to ‑‑ when you buy something that you know is going to be a problem, then you should be ‑‑ and I think the court's right on this, I mean they say that, no, you can't do that.  You want to get services that everyone can use and access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12633             So, I think generally speaking, I think the court was right on this.  I don't specifically know that that has any implications for us.  We haven't ‑‑ we don't go out of our way to not make things available to other parties.  But uh ‑‑ yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12634             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12635             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, Mr. Lind and your colleagues, thank you very much for your participation.  We have no further questions for you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12636             MR. LIND:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12637             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Shaw Communications to come to the table, please.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12638             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself, and you have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12639             MR. STEIN:  Good afternoon, Madame Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12640             My name is Ken Stein, Senior Vice President, Corporate and Regulatory Affairs of Shaw Communications Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12641             With me today is Michael Ferras, Vice President of Regulatory Affairs for Shaw Communications Inc. as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12642             Shaw is Canada's largest video provider, serving over 3.1 million Canadian customers through our Shaw Cable and Star Choice services.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12643             We operate cable systems throughout Western Canada and Ontario, serving our major urban centers and many smaller communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12644             Star Choice offers its services right across Canada, with major operation centers in Calgary, Mississauga, and Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12645             Shaw strongly opposes granting mandatory carriage to any existing or future digital service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12646             Digital delivery is all about increasing choice by creating more options and delivering more services for our customers.  It is not about limiting choice or imposing mandatory packaging requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12647             The policies for digital television are designed to allow BDUs to maximize the investment in digital technology, and to respond to the unprecedented competitive challenges facing the broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12648             The idea of granting mandatory digital basic distribution rights totally ignores the new digital and competitive reality.  It imposes the limitations of the analog world on digital, and takes us exactly in the wrong direction.  In fact, it undermines a whole rationale for digital in the first place.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12649             What is needed now is not retro regulation, but a fundamental view of the BDU regulatory framework to ensure that the Canadian Broadcasting System is able to deliver the services and programs that Canadians demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12650             To prepare for the new digital reality, Shaw has consistently advocated that deregulation and a free market focus are the route to follow for all of the services we offer.  We have responded to the competitive environment with measures that are very much focused on our customers to meet their demands for improved quality and service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12651             And as an aside, given today's announcement regarding forbearance in Fort McMurray, you would have to agree we have in large part succeeded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12652             Over the past five years, we have invested nearly four and a half billion dollars in our cable and satellite businesses to expand capacity, roll out digital technology, and to launch new services.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12653             We have also made tremendous investments in customer service, hiring hundreds of new staff, expanding and building call centers, conducting extensive training, all to roll out new services and to support our seven, twenty‑four, three hundred and sixty‑five commitment to customer service.  This is what we are obliged to do to remain competitive in face of unprecedented competitive challenges from both licensed and unlicensed providers of video and audio services.  Mike.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12654             MR. FERRAS:  Digital technology is all about choice and innovation in content and in packaging, how the content is delivered.  It is an opportunity to deliver even better service to our customers, while also providing us a tremendous tool to compete with new delivery services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12655             Forcing regulated BDUs to distribute additional services on digital basic will not help the broadcasting system, but exactly the opposite.  It will harm it.  It will not strengthen the system.  It will weaken it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12656             We are not opposed to the CRTC licensing or authorizing any new digital service.  What we're opposed to, is any action that would require the mandatory carriage of such services, or that would limit the commission's ability to conduct a full review of all aspects of the BDU regulations in the near future.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12657             The existing distribution and packaging rules are a maze that consumers really do not accept or understand.  Further restraints will only serve to drive consumers outside of the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12658             The time for excessive regulatory protections and guarantees must end if the broadcasting system is to remain strong and competitive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12659             Shaw submits that all of the applications for mandatory distribution rights on a digital basic, should be denied based on the following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12660             First, granting 9(1)(h) mandatory carriage is inconstant with the CRTC's own determination in the migration policy to cease the dual status designations.  And it is also inconsistent with the benefits and stated CRTC policy goals for digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12661             Second, the existing dual status services have benefited enormously from their analog basic carriage rights, and have significant competitive benefits over other digital services.  The dual status services must accept the risks that are inherent in the digital environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12662             Third, the existing dual status services will continue to benefit from the continued analog carriage by cable, and from the grandfathering and mirroring obligations established by the commission in the migration policy.  It will ensure that the existing tiers will be duplicated on digital until at least the year 2010 and most likely to the year 2013.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12663             In the end, the CRTC has given these services almost a decade to adjust their business plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12664             Finally, none of the new applicants have provided evidence demonstrating their exceptional importance that would justify forcing Canadian BDUs to subsidize these services, pay more for digital basic, and accept more packaging limitations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12665             MR. STEN:  In conclusion, Madame Chair, the Canadian Broadcasting System is facing enormous challenges from new technology and the demands of Canadians.  At Shaw, we continue to roll our new service concepts everyday, whether by cable, satellite, or the internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12666             To meet the challenges of a fiercely competitive and virtually borderless digital world, the last thing the system needs is new layers of regulation, or new limitations on the ability of distributors to respond to customer demands for greater choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12667             What we need now, is less regulation and more flexibility.  We need to build on the investments we have made in digital technology and offer the most innovative, affordable, and attractive digital services to our customers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12668             Over fourteen years ago in the structural proceeding, the CRTC saw a digital future that would require that Canadian Broadcasting System to offer greater choice and addressability to meet new competition and satisfy consumer demand.  That future is here now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12669             Thank you for your time.  We would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12670             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Vice Chairperson Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12671             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Ms Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12672             Mr. Stein, you were in the room when Mrs. Del Val described her experience to get some DVS in North Vancouver, and she said she was a Shaw subscriber.  She had to find somebody who had an Express View terminal to have an experience.  Is Shaw offering DVS in Vancouver, North Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12673             MR. FERRAS:  In all of our systems, we're offering a mix of DVS on the analog service and on the digital service.  And admittedly, it's not where we would like it to be, and that is because of the historical legacy nature of our networks and of cable networks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12674             What I'm saying, is that the receivers that we have in Shaw's head end for analog don't accept the SAP stream, number one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12675             And number two, in order to ensure a very high quality delivery of the local broadcast signal, we have a hard wire feed from the broadcaster's studio directly to our head end.  All of that has to be undone.  And what we're doing, is as we build out and replace the analog equipment, we're installing that new equipment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12676             And on the digital side, it's a lot easier to do.  It's ‑‑ DVS stream is actually multi‑plexed right into the stream that's coming from the programming service and we are shortly to implement, I think it's in July of this year, a software fix that will be coming from TV Guide and Motorola that will allow the pass through on the digital side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12677             So, it's not where it needs to be, but that's the situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12678             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And that applies to your system in North Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12679             MR. FERRAS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12680             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And is it the same situation all across Alberta and BC, or is it limited to some areas?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12681             MR. FERRAS:  I think that's an area that across all of our systems.  And there's some exceptions, like Edmonton, where every channel is being passed through right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12682             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  In your oral presentation, and it's you, Mr. Ferras, that read the ‑‑ on page four and five, that you were saying that we shall be denying these for the following reasons.  If the service was to be free, will you have the same argument?  Will you make the same argument?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12683             MR. STEIN:  If it was free?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12684             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.  Obviously, all those that we've heard today are on the agenda of this public hearing.  All have a subscriber fee.  But if there were no subscriber fee, will your position be the same that there be no 9(1)(h)?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12685             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  Our position would be that there be no 9(1)(h) because we don't think that 9(1)(h) is appropriate in those kinds of circumstances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12686             If the service was free, there are still costs in distributing that service.  And so, we would have to look at what the demand for that service would be.  That kind of a service would be akin to a broadcast signal, for example, which are available free.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12687             So, we have to ‑‑ even with broadcast services, we have to be very conscious of the kind of capacity we have and the way in which we offer them.  And we would not agree with 9(1)(h) being used for free services, or for broadcast services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12688             But, of course, you have in place your own rules in terms of priority carriage.  We think that's the proper way to deal with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12689             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  Fine.  Well, those were my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12690             THE CHAIPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12691             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  You were here when Rogers replied to my question of why, specifically, doesn't NBRS meet the 9(1)(h) test.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12692             Do you have, aside from what Rogers has said, do you have any more to add to it, or, to any of the arguments that were made by the intervenors on why, specifically, NBRS does not meet the 9(1)(h) test?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12693             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  First I should say I've been listening all day.  One of the wonders of the web.  Although, I couldn't see you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12694             We're very sensitive to the whole NBRS question and, you know, Shaw was one of the original supporters of NBRS through benefits and other means.  So ‑‑ and Mr. Fowler, my predecessor, was, back when‑‑ he may still be on the board ‑‑ Mr. Fowler and I got into a big debate about rates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12695             But I think that in terms of 9(1)(h), I would think that our preference would be to not to use 9(1)(h) in this circumstance.  Our preference would be to work out solutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12696             I understand the frustrations that blind people and other people with disabilities have with sometimes the slow pace it takes to meet their concerns and issues.  I know that that personally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12697             My father was blind and I remember our great fun was listening, watching to ball games together.  And I remember one of his great highlights of his life was that Phil Lind got us tickets to a Rogers Blue Jays game.  And I appreciated for the first time that somebody could actually enjoy a baseball game without seeing it, just by being there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12698             So, I understand the atmospherics.  I understand the points that they were making about being, you know, with family and being a Canadian and those kinds of things.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12699             I think it would be much better to have a dialogue that doesn't put us into a situation where we're forced to do it, but more in a situation where we work together to come to common solutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12700             My concern is, I don't know whether their proposal is the right proposal or not.  My view on this would be to work very closely with the representatives for blind people and try to deal with their issues and concerns on a cooperative basis.  That would be the approach that we would prefer to take.  And we're quite willing to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12701             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  If I keep this in perspective, really, in history, we've only created four 9(1)(h) services.  Only four times has the CRTC made 9(1)(h) ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12702             MR. STEIN:  All mistakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12703             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  I guess that might answer the ‑‑ can you distinguish any of those four decisions say from NBRS situation, other than to say that, well, this too will be a mistake?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12704             MR. STEIN:  Well, I think so.  I think that because, you know, I don't want to get into the individual cases, TVA, CPAC.  I'm the chairman of CPAC.  It has 9(1)(h) status.  We didn't ask for it.  I don't think we need it, quite frankly, but Phil Lyn might disagree with me ‑‑ sorry, I may have to retract that statement.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12705             But I think that my preference, our preference, always is to ensure that we work out a situation and move it on forward on that basis.  I think that's the better way to deal with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12706             So, we think that 9(1)(h) was put in place at a time ‑‑ remember, 9(1)(h) was really discussed as a resulted reaction in the late eighties, early nineties to the fact that we had cable ‑‑ you know, cable was a monopoly.  And, so it really was the effective gateway control.  But now, with Star Choice and Bell and telephone companies et cetera, you know, the number of alternatives are out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12707             A lot of the discussion at that time was also based on ethnic services.  And ethnic services have done, by the commissions own numbers, have done extremely well over the last, you know, four years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12708             So, we think it's much better to work it out than to have mandatory orders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12709             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  But now that we have a precedent set by the four cases, and the test of exceptional and the financial case, now that we have that precedent set by the four cases, can you distinguish the NBRS case from those four precedents set?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12710             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  The four cases were in an analog world.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12711             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12712             MR. STEIN:  They were in an analog world, and we're now dealing with a digital world.  And I think that the more that we have a situation in digital world where we actually remove the 9(1)(h)s and their protections and move to a more consumer friendly approach, and one that does take into account the needs of people as per the Broadcasting Act and as resources are available to meet those requirements, we much prefer that approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12713             So, we don't ‑‑ we take the 9(1)(h) as precedence, yes, in an analog world, but we do not see that applying in a digital world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12714             COMMISIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Then the last question, I think you've heard some intervenors fear the backlash of the commission or the community or the BDUs wanting to lower their obligations on providing described video as a result of licensing a channel, like the accessible channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12715             Should it be licensed, would Shaw use that channel as an opportunity to ask for leniency in the application of the described video, you know, pass through obligation to Shaw?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12716             MR. STEIN:  No.  Our preference is to work out a DVS solution.  I think that's the better route to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12717             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12718             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12719             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, I'm not going to ask if we should impose a 9(1)(h) on you because you're not carrying DVS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12720             I do want to know when, on your cable, DVS is going to be delivered?  Well, Mr. Ferras was talking about the old technological issues.  As we build out, we're getting capacity to carry.  So, when will all of Shaw Cable's customers be able to get DVS?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12721             MR. FERRAS:  On the digital side, it's a much rosier picture because it's easier to do, as I was saying, because the DVS stream is imbedded right into the digital stream.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12722             And, come this July ‑‑ and this isn't just for Shaw.  This would be for any cable system that uses the Motorola platform.  Motorola and TV Guide have to make this software fix.  And that has been sometime coming, but it looks like it's actually going to happen this summer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12723             So, that fix will be downloaded into all of the digital customer terminals.  And that would mean that any programming service that we receive that has the DVS stream in it, will be there.  And once the customer goes into the box once and sets it up for the descriptive video, it's there for all time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12724             On the analog side, it's a little bit more difficult to answer.  The way we've been going at it is to ‑‑ we favor the digital solution and I think we've been communicating that to the commission because we see it as the more practical, least expensive and faster way to get descriptive video out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12725             On the analog side, we've been ‑‑ as we've been rebuilding head ends and when equipment fails, we go in and we replace it so that it's DVS ready, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12726             That process is ongoing, and as we go through that, that's how we'll be addressing the analog descriptive video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12727             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about Star Choice?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12728             MR. STEIN:  Thank you.  See, one of the situations we dealt with was because we went with for security reasons to protect ourselves against the black market and we're the only provider that uses the kind of boxes, the Motorola boxes, although, I understand, there is some legacy systems that have them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12729             But it's a hard wired box and it means that the software development is primarily us.  It's just Shaw and Star Choice, and so it's not always easy to get people to move for one client, but we're a big client so we just push them hard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12730             And, you know, as we described in our meeting with Mr. Arpin, that we've explained to Motorola that the Commission is pushing hard on us, on this, and has set out certain obligations for us to meet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12731             And so, we finally, just last month, finally got a commitment from Motorola in writing that they will do this software fix and that we will get it rolled out.  And we started, in fact, to implement certain preliminary steps to make sure that that starts to operate, both for Star Choice and in our digital systems at Shaw starting in the summer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12732             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You know, it just ‑‑ the whole accuracy, or lack of accuracy, of the inability to ascertain if there is described video programming ‑‑ what would be wrong if NBRS developed a half hour program everyday saying where the described video is, verbally?  What would be wrong with you putting that on your TV guide channel say at, 7:30 in the morning when everybody's planning their evenings or at 6:30 at night when everybody's planning their evenings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12733             MR. STEIN:  I'll discuss it with Mr. Park.  I think, you know, it's a useful suggestion and I think, you know, there are ‑‑ you know, I mean to be able to inform people of the kinds of alternatives they have out there for programming is a huge challenge.  But, I think in this case we just try to determine how to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12734             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you wouldn't have a problem, though, if NBRS even provided you with that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12735             MR. STEIN:  Probably we would, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12736             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, okay.  You would do it yourselves?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12737             MR. STEIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12738             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12739             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Stein, Mr. Ferras, thank you very much.  We don't have any other questions for you this evening.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12740             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  I would now ask Canadian Cable System Alliance to come to presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 12741             THE SECRETARY:  Please present yourself and you have ten minutes for you presentation.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12742             MR. EDWARDS:  Good evening.  I'm Chris ‑‑ Madame Chairwoman, Commissioners, I'm Chris Edwards, Vice President of Canadian Cable Systems Alliance, Regulatory Capacity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12743             I have with me, Mr. Harris Boyd of Solaricom(ph), who is appearing in his capacity as a Regulatory Consultant to CCSA.  The name of his new company is a testament to a man's love for his car.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12744             The CCSA comprises more than ninety independent cable operators that serve approximately 850,000 Canadian analog television subscribers, and over 150,000 digital subscribers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12745             Our submissions today relate to the applications of items 17 through 18 of MPHCRTC 2007‑1.

Those items are applications by a number of programming services for mandatory distribution on the digital basic service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12746             CCSA opposes each of those applications.  Our opposition rests on the ground that it is neither necessary, nor consistent with the objectives of the commission's digital licensing and digital migration frameworks, to expand the mandatory offering on the digital basic service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12747             CCSAs written intervention set out our key reasons for holding this view.  I'll summarize those briefly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12748             First, it has not been demonstrated hat any of the applicant's services are of such exceptional importance to the achievement of the objectives of the Act as to warrant mandatory distribution on the digital basic service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12749             Really, there's nothing in the applications, in our view, that distinguishes any of these services from the many existing analog specialties or digital category one services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12750             Second, mandatory distribution of these services on digital basic is more likely to impair the transition to digital than it is to meet the stated objectives of the commission's digital migration policy to encourage the transition to digital and, eventually, high definition distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12751             Third, those mature services do not require the protection of mandatory distribution.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12752             And forth, mandatory distribution of these services on digital basic runs counter to the objectives set out in the commission's 2001 licensing framework for the new digital services.  That is because such distribution rights would give both the existing dual status services and new digital applicants a preferred position over licensed category one and two services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12753             In our written intervention, we submitted that the existing priority carriage and mandatory carriage services, all of which will retain their carriage status in their digital environment, substantially satisfy the cultural objectives set out in section three of the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12754             We concluded that it's highly unlikely that any of the applicant's programming services, none of which has previously merited a mandatory distribution order, can be of extraordinary important to the achievement of the Act's objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12755             I'll turn now to a consideration of Canada's digital agenda and the place of these applications within that agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12756             Transition to digital technology has occupied a central position in Canada's competitive strategy for many years.  Digitization of our broadcasting system is a key part of that transition, a premise that is reflected in the object of section five of the Act.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12757             Since the time of the 1993 Structural Public Hearing, the commission has recognized that addressable digital technology will provide greater choice and customization of services to Canadians who are changing from the captive subscriber to the discriminating consumer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12758             The 2001 digital licensing framework and the 2006 digital migration framework are the products of the commission's continuing efforts to guide the digitization of the Canadian Broadcasting System.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12759             However, here we are in 2007 with digital penetrations among the 1100 systems that CCSA serves, averaging less than 25% of the analog subscriber base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12760             A number of smallest systems have yet to offer digital television service to their customers.  Why is that?  Well, to begin with, transition to digital is an extremely expensive proposition for small, privately held, and finance cable company.  Small systems who wish to convert, generally face a choice between a system rebuild and use of their existing capacity to offer as robust a digital line up as they can manage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12761             To achieve meaningful digital penetrations, those systems need to remove barriers to digital take‑up and, they need to create incentives for customers to buy into the new digital technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12762             With the advent of relatively low priced digital only set top boxes, subsidization of the consumer equipment cost, recently, has become a manageable risk for the small systems.  Such subsidies, at least partially, eliminate the primary barrier to digital take‑up, which is the cost of the box to consumer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12763             Even so, the cable company may not be able to absorb the full cost of the receivers or the cost of multiple receivers in their customers' home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12764             The other side of the equation is the creation of incentives that will entice the customer to take the digital offer.  In standard definition, picture and sound quality improvements have limited impact on consumers.  HDTV and Video on Demand are attractive offerings, but they tend to address more of the desires of the higher end discretionary purchasers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12765             The problem remains, how do these systems attract entry level customers to their basic digital offerings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12766             There are two answers: choice and price.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12767             The discriminating consumer is here today and that consumer has choices.  However, those choices are less and less about which channels to pick from the cable company's offering and more and more about which competitor, be that DTH and all terrestrial BDU, like the Telco's, or a completely unregulated alternative offers the best value.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12768             Currently among the growing number of options available to customers, the all analog and hybrid cable systems are the least able to offer customers choice at the entry level to the digital service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12769             DTH already has a smaller basic requirement than cable and, as the dual status rules phase out, the all digital terrestrial BDUs will have lighter regulatory demands on formation of their basic services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12770             Granting these applications will exacerbate that difference.  Small cable will be disadvantaged even further throughout the transition to a fully digital service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12771             The existing priority carriage and mandatory services have distribution rights on cable's digital basic service.  The entry level package, in our view, is already robust.  If existing dual status services and new digital licenses are allowed to clamber into permanent seats on the digital basic bus, there will be little difference between the analog and digital basic offerings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12772             For the entry level customer, the promise of enhanced choice will be further diminished.  The customer will be less attracted to cable's digital offering as a place where she can get more of what she wants and less of what she does not want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12773             The second answer was price.  Rural and small town customers tend to be more price sensitive than the urban customers.  To the extent that the price of the entry level digital service increases, the interest of price sensitive consumers in take‑up of digital service decreases.  It's that simple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12774             Granting any of these applications will impair the digital transition, especially in the market served by small cable systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12775             Mandatory inclusion of these services in the digital basic offering will expand digital basic, in terms of both size and cost.  To the extent that occurs, the ability of small cable systems to reduce barriers and offer incentives to digital take‑up will be diminished.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12776             As the commission has acknowledged, the dual status role has substantially served its purpose and these services are now among the healthiest in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12777             Even without mandatory carriage on digital basic, under the existing digital migration framework, the dual statuses will continue to enjoy protection for years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12778             For instance, under the framework, they'll already be under the digital basic service of class one and two cable BDUs until 2010 at the very least.  They'll be entitled forever to treatment as category one services and they'll continue to benefit from the five to one and one to one linkage rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12779             Despite the exemption of many small systems, to whom distribution and linkage rules no longer apply, few of those who have offered these services on that analog basic service have chosen to move them.  Some may choose not to include all of these services in the digital basic.  However, BDUs are increasingly conditioned by the competitive pressures they feel, and nobody wants to give the customer a reason to leave.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12780             It is open to these programming services to structure their rate cards so as to promote carriage on the basic service and ensure satisfactory returns from carriage on the discretionary levels of service.  That is an approach that reconciles their needs with those of the cable systems to design flexible, responsive offers for their customers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12781             There's nothing, in our view, inherent in the nature of these services that warrants special protections in digital.  More particularly, they should not be given privileges simply because they happen to be fortunate in the timing of their original licenses.  To do so is unfair to the many other analog specialties and the category one and two digit nuts, with whom they will compete in the digital space.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12782             Like those other services, they should negotiate the terms of their digital carriage on the basis of their ability to offer attractive combinations of carriage terms, price, and above all, content quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12783             Granting any of these applications is unnecessary in terms of meeting the objectives of the Act and, in our view, would be wrong as a matter of policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12784             Such action would run counter to the over‑arching policy considerations, such as the digital transition objective and movement to increased reliance on market forces to regulate the industry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12785             To be clear, issuance of any of the requested orders would not simply maintain the status quo for small systems.  With respect to existing dual status services, they would impose new carriage requirements on independent class two systems that already have been relieved of the dual status obligations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12786             With respect to the two existing non‑dual status services and the three applicants for new licenses, they would impose new carriage conditions on independent class one and two systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12787             We are concerned, as well, with the possibility that, as in the past, such new distribute rights might flow into the small systems exemption order, thereby imposing an additional burden on exempt class two and former part three systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12788             The small system exemption order was intended to lighten the regulatory burden on small systems in recognition of the special economic circumstances they face.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12789             We've understood that the commission intended to assist small systems with the transition to digital, not to make that transition more difficult than it already is.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12790             At bottom, we do not believe that any of the applicants has met the test of demonstrating that mandated carriage of its service is of exceptional importance to the achievement at the objectives of the Act.  Rather, expansion of the mandatory digital basic service would directly undermine the technological objectives of the Act and the digital transition policies established by the commission since 1993.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12791             It would harm small cable systems to the detriments of the Canadians they serve in Canada's smaller centers, rural areas, and remote regions.  Above all, it would make it more, more difficult for small systems to cross the bridge to fully digital distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12792             For those reasons, we submit all of the applications should be denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12793             Thank you for your time and for staying with us for so long this evening.  We'll answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12794             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12795             MR. ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Ms Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12796             My third question will deal with descriptive video.  And to your knowledge, I know that, obviously, you are a service organization, but to your knowledge, do your members pass through the descriptive video that already exists?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12797             MR. BOYD:  Frankly, the performance of our members and the passing through described video is sporadic, currently.  In our larger centers, and keep in mind what larger centers mean in our context, our largest member is Persona.  Their largest system is Sudbury.  So we're not talking Vancouver.  But in our larger centers, we do pass through descriptive video in analog.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12798             In none of our systems do we pass through descriptive video in digital.  You've heard our two previous panels talk a little bit about that.  We are one hundred per cent dependent on Motorola equipment.  Rogers mentioned that they don't have much impact on manufacturers in North American Market.  We have none.  We do well often to get the boxes delivered at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12799             Shaw is the largest Motorola customer and I was pleased to hear that they said there would be a software fix for TV Guide and the Motorola boxes in July.  Motorola has told us September, so I guess probably that means that they're going to roll it out to us afterward.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12800             But that is very good news because the technology is complex, to say the least, and if we could pass through the DVS that we receive, because those services come from Shaw broadcast services they do pass through the descriptors, if we could then pass them through via our boxes to our customers, that would be a tremendous step forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12801             The other thing, I think, that is worth pointing out despite our fairly low penetration of digital in most of our markets currently, we expect our members will probably be the first to go one hundred per cent digital because they won't want to rebuild their systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12802             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Have you had the chance to read the intervention submitted by Quebec Corp?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12803             MR. BOYD:  No, I have not because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12804             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  You have members that are operating in the Quebec market.  Quebec Corp has ‑‑ they develop a series of six criteria which answer yes or no, depending on the niche of the criteria.  But when they assess the weather network, they're saying yes six times.  So they are coming to the conclusion that 9(1)(h) provision applies to the weather channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12805             MR. BOYD:  In the Quebec market I should point out ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12806             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No.  Obviously, the criteria are not set for the Quebec market.  They are broad enough to be applied all across the land.  So that's why I'm asking you if your comments, if you have any, regarding the, specifically, the weather channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12807             MR. BOYD:  We have tried not to comment on specific services in our interventions.  Certainly the weather channel is a very important channel to our member companies and to our customers.  We carry it almost universally.  Obviously not necessarily in all the small systems, and we would expect to carry it, obviously, in addition to the rules and the digital migration framework, we expect to carry it in a very large manner forever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12808             I mean, the 9(1)(h) is essentially not about whether the service will be available to everyone.  It's about whether everyone will pay for it.  We certainly will make it available to everyone.  It will be a category one service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12809             Our issue is, we don't feel all of our customers should have to pay for it if they don't want it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12810             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.  Those were my questions.  Ms Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12812             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  For those of your members who do have passed through obligations, I guess most of them do, would they ‑‑ if the accessible channel were licensed, would they see that as giving them an excuse to have their obligations to pass through lowered?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12813             MR. BOYD:  I don't think so.  I mean, the NBRS proposal is, from my point of view, and I'm speaking somewhat personally, quite attractive.  I've been involved in voice print over the years.  I think it's a very good compliment to the DVS technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12814             Let's face it.  The end of the day, despite our best efforts, it's still going to be complicated in most households to access DVS, particularly where there's not a sighted person there.  That's always going to be difficult.  So it you can have some one stop shopping in addition to that, I think that would be very good service to have on the network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12815             That does not mean that I'm saying, though, that it should be a 9(1)(h) service.  We think it should be a digital service available to those that want it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12816             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  Madame Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12817             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Edwards, Mr. Boyd, thank you very much.  We have no further questions for you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12818             THE SECRETARY:  The last appearing intervention will be presented by Bell Video Group.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12819             THE SECRETARY:  Please present yourself and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

*INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12820             MR. FRANK:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12821             Thank you, and good evening, Chairperson Cugini and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12822             My name is Chris Frank and I'm Vice President of Programming at the Bell Video Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12823             With me is David Elder, Vice President of Regulatory Law for Bell Canada, and our Regulatory Counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12824             Our comments today will focus on the intended use of the commission's authority granted under 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act and on the impact 9(1)(h) approvals have on BDUs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12825             As well, we'll respond to a number of individual applications.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12826             Bell opposes the approval of these applications on the basis of the application of 9(1)(h).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12827             In the interest of time, not unlike our last appearance in Calgary, we'll try and sum this up as quickly as possible to get everybody out of here and also give you some chances to ask questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12828             Our position on 9(1)(h) is not different from the BDUs who've just appeared in front of you.  We think it's a rather dull, regulatory tool that has a degree of permanency, which I don't think fits ‑‑ we don't, excuse me, think fits the digital environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12829             As far as the existing dual status services are concerned, these applications, whose services currently enjoy dual status on terrestrial cable systems, have never been afforded such must carry on DTH service, although, not for trying.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12830             Both CBC and Pelmorex have intervened and passed Express view licensing processes in order to obtain compulsory basic carriage on our system.  But to date, the commission has rejected our arguments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12831             The same is true of Vision TV, both in our original license decision in '95, and again in 2004 in our renewal, the commission did not require Bell Express View to distribute such services on basic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12832             The commission has already determined that discontinuation of dual and modified dual status is a good idea and has explained why.  Bell agrees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12833             Indeed, the programming content offered by these dual status services is hardly unique.  Pelmorex's weather and weather related information is freely available from a multiplicity of sources, both inside and outside the broadcasting industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12834             As for news content, News World and Air DE operate in a highly competitive programming category with at least nine English and one French language alternative, licensed or authorized alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12835             In today's competitive market, increased risk is simply a fact of life.  Companies should not expect to be guaranteed a cash flow and profitability to finance their products.  Therefore, to us, it makes no sense to now recreate dual status for some service under the guise of 9(1)(h).


LISTNUM 1 \l 12836             With respect, the efforts of the applicants for you today to secure distribution and digital basic package would be more appropriately focused on negotiating with BDUs, as some have successfully done with the DTH service providers.  In this regard, Bell Express View's basic service line up speaks for itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12837             In respect of the other services, the Métis network, diversity, NBRS ‑‑ excuse me.  I have a few detailed comments about NBRS.  Canal Savoir and APB, we think Category 2 treatment is the appropriate way to go, not 9(1)(h) must carry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12838             Now, in respect of ‑‑ cuz these ‑‑ the NBRS services have attracted a lot of questioning, a lot of attention in the last few minutes.  This is what I can say.  Bell has recently confirmed, Bell Express View has recently confirmed the commission its delivery of almost a hundred per cent of the described video on forty channels that are provided to us by Canadian broadcasters.  I think the actual number is somewhere between 90 and 96 per cent and we expect to go to 100 per cent within 60 days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12839             This is being accomplished relatively easy and at a fraction of the cost proposed by NBRS.  Bell is prepared to expand its distribution of described video as broadcasters, Canadian broadcasters, make more available.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12840             It is important to note that any missed scheduling of described video is usually caused by the hand off from broadcaster to Express View.  We will undertake to resolve such occurrences with each broadcast group to the extent possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12841             Further, we would welcome dialogue with NBRS or any other association which speaks for the visually impaired as to how to improve accessibility, reliability, and notification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12842             NBRS's proposed service would add cost to BDU subscribers.  The accessible channel would be an incremental twenty‑four seven video feed that would require scare and valuable satellite band width that is already heavily canvassed by broadcasters seeking to convert their signals to high definition and by new service providers that offer innovative, new, Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12843             One wonders, in our context, how a single video channel could do more than the multiple channels Bell Express currently offers on its electronic programming Guide from channels 49 to 89 inclusive.  And that also includes a barker channel with voice input.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12844             It's important to note that under the current regime, each license programming undertaking is responsible for exhibiting a fixed number of hours of described video programming per month at its cost.  BDUs are expected to distribute described programming and to do so in a manner that is both easy of the viewer and cost effective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12845             As Bell understands the NBRS proposal, the applicant would remove the cost burden from the originating programming licensee, and transfer it to BDUs and their customers.  Such a transfer of financial obligations, in our respectful opinion, is not in the public interest.  Thus, our opposition to the NBRS application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12846             In short, we think we can do it better.  We think we're currently doing it better.  And is there room for improvement?  Probably, and we're more than happy to consult and attempt to make those improvements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12847             Those are my comments and we'd be entirely pleased to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12848             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Vice Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12849             COMMISSIONER Arpin:  Only a theoretical question.  You've said, Mr. Frank, in your presentation that 9(1)(h) doesn't apply to the digital world.  But, the end of the day, everything happens on the television screen.  Why digital is so different to analog?  For the viewer ‑‑ from the viewer's standpoint.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12850             MR. FRANK:  I think Mr. Stein captured the essence of it when he said that, or implied, that customers are pretty savvy folks.  They understand that digital is a hundred per cent addressable.  They understand the possibility of greater granularity in programming choice, and in some cases, pick and pay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12851             They also understand, now, increasingly, they have choice from where they get their programming, whether on an aggregated basis like we experience now in the BDU sector from licensed and authorized programmers, and in a disaggregated sense, with over the top ‑‑ through over the top video.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12852             So, it is a very competitive market.  Customers know what they want and I think it was Mr. Boyd who said, just previous to us, not opposed to carrying these services, but don't think it's appropriate that all of our customers pay, especially when there's customers out there who don't particularly want or benefit from that service.  I think that's basically the theoretical answer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12853             COMMISSIONER Arpin:  You heard me also asking the CCSA question regarding based on the submission made by Quebec Corp Media in this proceeding where they have breakdown the issues into six different criteria.  I don't know if you had a chance to see that table.  It's independent to their submission.  And, the conclusions that arrive from reading their table is that the weather channel meets the criteria for 9(1)(h) attribution.  Do you have any comments regarding their conclusion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12854             MR. FRANK:  Let me make a general comment and then pass it over to David if he has some specifics he'd like to add.  And I would note that, in passing, it wouldn't be the first time that Bell and Quebec Corp disagree on something.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12855             MR. FRANK:  We could attempt humor late in the evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12856             I think it really comes down to an interpretation of what 9(1)(h) is.  And in our mind, it ‑‑ there is a very high test for 9(1)(h).  It has to be almost an exceptional service and distribution of which to a hundred per cent of your customers would not allow your service and the industry to meet the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  We're of the opinion that none of the services that have applied for 9(1)(h) meet that task.  David.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12857             MR. ELDER:  I just ‑‑ I guess I just I emphasize what Chris said about this being exceptional and the hurdle has to be very high.  And I think if you look through the criteria that the commission identified in its decision for the digital migration framework, I mean working through a lot of these ‑‑ I mean a huge number of services would potentially qualify.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12858             And so I don't think the test for 9(1)(h) is just you meet the objectives of the Act because I hope that all of our licensed programming services meet one or more of the objectives of the Act in some way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12859             I think the nicer question is, is it so important, so exceptional, that failure to require mandatory carriage would really compromise the attainment of the objectives of the Act?  And I'm not sure ‑‑ or rather I'd say that none of the services that we have before us today, I think fall into that category.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12860             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Well, that's the first criteria of the Quebec Corp table and their answer is yes.  And their answer is yes not only for that one, but for Vision TV, for CBC News World, for RDI.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12861             Now, the other ‑‑ the service I just named fail in other criteria.  But in the case of the weather channel throughout, I have yes throughout.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12862             MR. FRANK:  I guess that's the beauty of competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12863             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12864             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12865             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Just referring to paragraph 20 of your statement, channels about the electronic program guide, channels 49 to 89 inclusive.  So those are the channels that are supposed to carry ‑‑ are supposed to be video described?   Is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12866             MR. FRANK:  That's ‑‑ that is ‑‑ that's the case.  I can tell you that those channels to do carry, each and every one of those channels, do carry that programming when it's available to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12867             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Yes.  Okay.  Because when I checked, there was only one ‑‑ I did notice forty channels having the DV symbol.  But, of the ones I noticed, there was only program that was actually described video at the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12868             So, now, what would ‑‑ in your view, would the accessible channel on DTH make ‑‑ become redundant on the Express View service, or ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12869             MR. Frank:  Well, it's quite possible it would be redundant when you combine the fact that within sixty days we'll be carrying all of the programming that's made described programs available to us.  And our commitment subject only to band width availability, and these services don't require a lot of band width, so that shouldn't be an issue.  But in the satellite business, you always get ‑‑ caveat such things subject to available capacity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12870             Plus our barker channel, which provides people with very large lettered announcements on upcoming digital video ‑‑ digital described programming.  Plus, a background voice saying the same thing at the same time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12871             So, we think we've got a very good guide.  Now, can it be improved?  As I said before, likely it can, and we're more than willing to talk to qualified and interested people in how we make it better.  But, we think we're meeting both the letter and the spirit of your expectations of us and we plan to continue to do that subject to the existing rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12872             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Okay.  So what you're saying, that in sixty days if the world unfold as it should, then something like an accessible channel could be redundant on the Express View Service?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12873             MR. FRANK:  Yes.  If I understand your question completely and understand their service completely, yes.  I think the combination of a hundred per cent of the available programming, plus a useful barker directing people to the channel, plus, of course, the original electronic programming guide is, I think, a very good start to the service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12874             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  So then, if the accessible channel were licensed, would you look to lowering your obligations in terms of providing the described video programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12875             MR. FRANK:  Not necessarily, no.  It would really depend on what the environment looked like.  The goal ‑‑ the goal is to get as much described programming to visually challenged people as possible.  And, if there was a value ad there, I don't think we would reduce any commitments.  In fact, I think we're looking to increase them as more programming becomes available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12876             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  Thank you.  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12877             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Elder and Mr. Frank.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12878             MR. FRANK:  Could I just make one last comment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12879             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12880             MR. FRANK:  Because there was a question relating to SAP and a condition of license requiring us to use the SAP.  Our technology does not work that way.  We actually light up individual channels.  Our commitment would be to carry all of the ‑‑ I think, commitment we want to make is to carry all of the programs that's made available to us by Canadian and foreign broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12881             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that COL wouldn't work for Bell Express Views ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12882             MR. FRANK:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12883             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you very much.  Thank you for that additional comment.  We have no more further ‑‑ we don't have any further questions for you this evening.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12884             THE SECRETARY:  This completes the list of appearing intervenors, therefore, Phase II.  Thank you.  Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12885             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  That concludes the hearing for this evening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12886             And in view of the late hour, we will begin tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. instead of the pre‑announced 8:30 a.m. with Phase III.  Thank you for your patience and have a good evening.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12887             Phase III tomorrow.  Thank you for your patience and have a good evening.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2122, to resume

    on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 at 0900 / L'audience

    est ajournée à 2122, pour reprendre le mercredi

    28 mars 2007 à 0900

 

 

 

REPORTERS

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Johanne Morin             Sue Villeneuve

 

 

 

 

_____________________     _____________________

Monique Mahoney           Madeleine Matte

 

 

 

  

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