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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 12, 2007 Le 12 février 2007
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secrétaire
Peter McCallum Legal Counsel /
Conseiller juridique
Marie-Claude Mentor Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 12, 2007 Le 12 février 2007
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Crossroads Television System 7 / 50
The Miracle Channel Association 136 / 1114
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 206 / 1576
Calgary, Alberta
‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, February 12, 2007
at 9:30 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. For those who don't know me, my name is Michel Arpin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12 I am wearing a headset, not because I will be listening to the translation, but because I am partially hearing impaired and I want to make sure that I hear what you say to the Commission during your appearance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14 My name is Michel Arpin, and I am the Vice Chair of Broadcasting for the CRTC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15 I will be presiding over this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16 Joining me on the panel are my colleagues Barbara Cram, Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; Rita Cugina, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Stuart Langford, at the far left, National Commissioner; and Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 17 The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Marie‑Claude Mentor, who is also a Senior Broadcasting Analyst; Peter McCallum, Legal Counsel; and Jade Roy, Hearing Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 18 Please speak with Ms Roy if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 19 At this hearing we will first examine 10 applications to provide new television services to the Calgary and Edmonton markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 110 We will then review an application by Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 111 The panel will begin by considering proposals for Crossroads Television System to operate an English‑language religious television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 112 This will be followed by two applications presented by The Miracle Channel Association to operate an English‑language transitional digital television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 113 In both of these applications The Miracle Channel Association is proposing that the station simulcast the current programming of CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, a religious station, in its entirety.
LISTNUM 1 \l 114 Next, the panel will consider two applications each from Rogers Broadcasting Limited and MVBC Holdings Limited to operate multilingual ethnic television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 115 Rogers Broadcasting is proposing to direct programming to 25 ethnic groups, in 19 different languages, while MVBC Holdings is proposing to direct programming to 17 ethnic groups, in 17 different languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 116 We will then review the application from CanWest MediaWorks Inc. to amend the licence of CHCA‑TV, Red Deer, in order to have TV transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton to broadcast its programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 117 The applicant indicated that it will not solicit local advertising in the markets in question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 118 Some of these applications are competing, technically, for the use of the same channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 119 The panel will then assess the application from Only Imagine Inc. for a licence to operate a relay distribution undertaking. The proposed undertaking would insert commercial advertisements or promotional materials into the local availabilities of non‑Canadian programming services distributed by various broadcasting distribution undertakings across the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 120 The Commission intends to discuss various issues with the applicant related to the use of local availabilities and the U.S. programming services for commercial advertising, and any potential impact on Canadian programming services and broadcasting distribution undertakings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 121 I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Jade Roy, to explain the procedures we will be following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 122 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 123 Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 124 When you are in the hearing room, I would ask you to please turn off your cellphones, beepers, Blackberrys and other text messaging devices, as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and Commissioners, and they cause interference on the internal communications system used by our translators.
LISTNUM 1 \l 125 We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 126 We expect the hearing to take approximately three days. Tuesday and Wednesday we will begin each morning at 8:30 a.m., and finish around 5:30 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 127 We will take an hour for lunch, and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 128 We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.
LISTNUM 1 \l 129 The Clearwater Room, located on the first floor, will serve as the Examination Room, where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 130 As indicated on the agenda, the telephone number of the Examination Room is 403‑205‑5430.
LISTNUM 1 \l 131 There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table in front of me. If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.
LISTNUM 1 \l 132 Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 133 Simultaneous translation is available during the hearing. You can obtain a translation receiver through the technician at the back of the room. The English interpretation is on Channel 1, and the French is on Channel 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 134 Finally, we will proceed at the hearing with a four‑phase process, as follows:
LISTNUM 1 \l 135 First, each applicant will be granted 30 minutes to make its presentation for both the Calgary and Edmonton markets. Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 136 In Phase 2, the applicants re‑appear, in the same order, to intervene, if they wish, on the competing applications. Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose. Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 137 In Phase 3, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing interventions, and 10 minutes will be allowed for each presentation. Again, questions from the Commission may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 138 Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all of the interventions submitted on their application. Applicants appear in reverse order. Ten minutes will be allowed for this reply. Again, questions may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 139 For the record, we wish to inform you of the following:
LISTNUM 1 \l 140 Three documents were added to the examination files for The Miracle Channel Association Applications 2006‑05181 and 2006‑04969. The documents are:
LISTNUM 1 \l 141 The finalized version of The Miracle Channel Association's internal fundraising policy for Station CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, Alberta, including a covering letter and a final staff determination letter that explains the Commission's past position on The Miracle Channel Association's fundraising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 142 Also, the 2006 preliminary financial data for the Calgary and Edmonton markets is available in the Examination Room.
LISTNUM 1 \l 143 Finally, please note that for Application 2005‑14340, for the renewal of the licence of CKCL‑FM in Chilliwack by Rogers Broadcasting Limited, additional documents have recently been added to the public examination file, and additional correspondence will follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 144 Please note that CHUM Limited has withdrawn its Application 2006‑15015, which was listed as a non‑appearing item for this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 145 Phase 1: Now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Items 1 and 2 on the agenda, which are applications by Crossroads Television System for licences to operate English‑language religious television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 146 The new station in Calgary would operate on Channel 32, with an effective radiated power of 75,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 206 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 147 The new station in Edmonton would operate on Channel 45, with an average effective radiated power of 34,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 71,000 watts, antenna height of 176 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 148 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Richard Gray, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 149 You have 30 minutes to make your presentation, Mr. Gray.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 150 MR. GRAY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 151 Good morning, Chair Arpin and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 152 Crossroads Television System is one of the few independent services remaining in the landscape of merging television entities in Canada, and we thank you for this opportunity to present and discuss our plans to establish local, balanced, religious over‑the‑air television stations in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 153 We want to apply to Calgary and Edmonton the experience we have gained in eight years of operations in Ontario as an over‑the‑air religious broadcaster. We believe that both Edmonton and Calgary warrant the establishment of local religious television stations, with local production initiatives that will reflect the respective identities of each of these communities, and build upon the CTS model which we believe has proven successful in meeting and advancing the religious broadcast policy established by the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 154 At this time I would like to present our presentation panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 155 On your right, and my left, at the far end of the table, is our Corporate Comptroller, Matt Hillier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 156 Next to Matt is the Chairman of our CTS Board of Directors, Fred Vanstone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 157 To my right is our Program Director, Rob Sheppard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 158 To Rob's right is native Albertan Drew Martin. Drew is well known to members of the Alberta independent production community, and will be our Regional Manager for CTS Alberta stations, if and when we are licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 159 Next to Drew is Richard Landau, Senior Executive Producer for Balanced Programming on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 160 Richard has organized, chaired and participated in interfaith dialogue groups throughout North America, and he has authored the book "What the World Needs to Know about Interfaith Dialogue".
LISTNUM 1 \l 161 Richard joined CTS prior to our 1998 start‑up, providing leadership in the planning and development of our balanced program schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 162 We were gratified that when our first licence renewal was issued in August of 2004, the text of that renewal decision stated:
"In the Commission's view, Crossroads has provided its audience with a high degree of diversity in religious programming and has demonstrated considerable diligence in complying with the Guidelines of Balanced Programming as set out in the Religious Broadcasting Policy."
LISTNUM 1 \l 163 Next to Richard is Janine Maxwell, a member of our CTS Board of Directors. Janine was founder and president of Onyx Advertising in Toronto, and recently divested her advertising agency interest to devote her time and skills to the funding and care of orphan victims of AIDS in Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 164 Janine brings to us welcome expertise in marketing, including branding, and continues to provide valuable counsel for us in these areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 165 Next to Janine is our Director of Sales and Marketing, Glenn Stewart.
LISTNUM 1 \l 166 In our second row, right behind me, and on my left, your right, is Reverend David Mainse, a member of our CTS Board of Directors. Reverend Mainse began his television ministry journey in 1962, with a 15‑minute weekly television program following the Saturday night late news in the Ottawa Valley town of Pembroke, Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 167 In 1997 he launched the daily 100 Huntley Street program across Canada, a program which is still bringing hope and encouragement daily to thousands of Canadians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 168 Reverend Mainse was founding chairman of CTS when we began broadcasting in Ontario in 1998.
LISTNUM 1 \l 169 Next to Reverend Mainse is our Director of Engineering, David Storey.
LISTNUM 1 \l 170 As has been already announced, I am Richard Gray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 171 Before we begin our discussion, we would like you to view a brief, seven‑minute video presentation.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 172 MR. GRAY: Chair Arpin and Members of the Commission panel, prior to submitting our applications to the Commission in July of 2005, we conducted a number of meetings with Alberta's independent production community, and in the year and a half since our applications were submitted, we subsequently have had private, one‑on‑one meetings with more than 50 of those Alberta producers and writers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 173 As a result of these very constructive and positive communications, under the leadership of Alberta station management, CTS intends to engage the independent production community to produce all of its local programming in each of the cities of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 174 In an effort to assist Alberta producers in the development of unique Canadian faith and values programming, I am pleased to announce that, in addition to the $9.660 million, detail letter applications, that CTS will spend on local programming over the first term of the licences, we will be making available a first year Alberta Development Fund of $300,000, and an annual $30,000 ongoing Alberta Mentorship Program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 175 Alberta local programming expenditures will, therefore, total $10,170,000 over the first term of the licences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 176 We believe that this additional commitment to the Alberta production community will further enhance our program schedule and provide Alberta producers with the necessary funding to produce television you can believe in for Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 177 Chair Arpin and Commissioners, we welcome your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 178 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Gray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 179 I would ask Commissioner Langford to initiate the questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 180 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 181 Welcome to Calgary, as I suppose you could welcome me to Calgary, since none of us is from Calgary. But it's great to be here. I hope we can have a little fun this morning and learn a little bit more about what you are planning for Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 182 I watched that film with some interest. I guess, if I hadn't read any of your stuff and I just had to sum you up on the basis of that film, I think you have great potential to be religious broadcasters, but you ought to include a little Christian content.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 183 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That might fill out your schedule for you a little.
LISTNUM 1 \l 184 I will have a couple of questions about those new or explained CTD developments that came at the end of your remarks, sir, but rather than throw ourselves out of operation, maybe I could stick with the planned approach I had, because I have kind of got that down at the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 185 I want to talk about the market and how you define it and how big you think it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 186 I want to talk a bit about your business plan ‑‑ revenues and expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 187 I want to talk, of course, about programming. Some of it I don't understand, and it's probably just my weak math skills or something, but I get some of the things confused as to hours of this and hours of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 188 And I want to talk to you a bit about balanced programming. I noticed your overall commitment to adhere to the policy, which is comforting, but I am unclear about your definition of "balance" in some of the specific programs that you outlined in your supplementary brief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 189 Then I want to talk to you a bit about Canadian content development, or Canadian talent development, depending on which side of the last decision you are standing; and some of the new things you added today; and a breakdown of some of the bigger figures, such as the $4.8 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 190 I think you will find it pretty straightforward. I hope you will. I don't think there are any trick questions, unless you have a guilty conscience, of course. But you guys are probably better at solving that problem than I am.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 191 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am going to quote from the last sentence on page 1 of your supplementary brief. I don't think you need to go to it, but there is nothing to stop you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 192 You say:
"Based on our discussions with these communities..."
‑‑ by which, I assume, you mean Calgary and Edmonton, obviously:
"...our unique brand of religious programming would be enthusiastically welcomed by these communities."
LISTNUM 1 \l 193 I note that you have an awful lot of supporters, so I am not approaching this question in a vacuum, but how do you come to that conclusion?
LISTNUM 1 \l 194 Did you do any market analysis? Did you collect any empirical data? Did you have any experts out there? I couldn't find any on the file, but there may be something that I missed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 195 Was there some market research done to come to that conclusion?
LISTNUM 1 \l 196 MR. GRAY: Not the type of market research that you would expect normally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 197 I have contacted the religious programmers that make up a good deal of the Christian part of our schedule, so they are there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 198 Alberta is a very major part of their donor basis, and, of course, religious programs depend upon a donor base of support for their airtime, and, as a fully commercial station, we depend on that airtime revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 199 Most of those that I have talked to, they have a very large number of supporters in Alberta, and specifically in the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, and they would welcome the opportunity to be able to broadcast on a religious station in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1100 So we know, just from evidence from all of our various clients, that there definitely is a marketplace for all of these various programs, and they would love to see more exposure of them in these areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1101 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So these programs are being watched now in Edmonton and Calgary, but not by conventional television?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1102 Is that the only change?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1103 MR. GRAY: To some degree they are being watched here. They are carried on CTS in Ontario, and therefore they are available, to some degree, on satellite ‑‑ DTH.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1104 But the fact is that, even before CTS existed, there were long‑term ministries, which have a base of many thousands of supporters in these areas. Therefore, they would like to see the programming that they are supporting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1105 From the religious program side, we do know ‑‑ and I do have letters from various major ministries ‑‑ that they would like to be purchasing time on CTS Alberta stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1106 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want to sound irreverent in any way, but I am also looking at a business case here, so excuse some of the language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1107 Are you saying that they see a market here, and a lot of churches and a lot of religious interest, so, from their experience, they assume that this is where their programs will be watched?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1108 Or, are you saying that they are being watched ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1109 I thought your first statement was that some of the people you buy your block programming from are getting good reaction to their programming already from this area. If they are, how are these people getting this programming? And, if they are getting it, why do they need it twice?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1110 Is that a fair question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1111 MR. GRAY: What I was saying is that these people purchase airtime now on CTS, and they have expressed to me, "When can we buy time in Alberta, because we want to buy time on your stations in Alberta."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1112 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are relying on their interest in expanding the market, if I can put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1113 I don't know how else to put it ‑‑ expanding their viewer base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1114 That's really what you are relying on. You are relying on their expertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1115 They, somehow, have looked at this market and said: We are not there now, but it's a good place to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1116 MR. GRAY: That is part of our income. That is from the religious block side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1117 We also have over 1,100 letters of support, which, of course, you are aware of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1118 I would like to ask Glenn Stewart, our Director of Marketing for the commercial side, to speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1119 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, it is a two‑pronged process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1120 I think what I would like you to understand from the outset is that we are really here before you today because we are mandate driven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1121 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sorry, what was that word? What drives you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1122 MR. STEWART: Mandate. We are mandate driven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1123 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1124 MR. STEWART: Insofar as we believe that to bring the Ontario experience to Alberta and be able to offer Albertans locally produced religious programming is the centrepoint to our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1125 It is very true that we have a goodly number of block programmers who desire to expand and put programming into Alberta on our stations, if we are licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1126 Beyond that, there is, of course, also a commercial component to our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1127 It is our conjecture that the markets are certainly strong and can support a station like CTS in both Edmonton and Calgary, given the fact that, due to the nature of our service, our commercial component is only a very small portion of what we are trying to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1128 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: With the possible exception of the representatives from CHUM, I don't think you would get much objection from this particular crowd that the market is strong, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it will be strong for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1129 Here are the folks from OMNI Television, who will be making an application somewhat later, probably tomorrow or this afternoon, about ethnic television ‑‑ third language programming. If they were going to pitch all of their programming at Mandarin speakers, and there were only 1,100 Mandarin speakers in Calgary and Edmonton, they would have their work cut out, I would suggest, trying to make a business case for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1130 It would make 1,100 people very happy, and we are, to a certain extent, at the CRTC, in the happiness business. There is no doubt about it. But we just don't know how long they could put bread on the table with 1,100 subscribers, and trying to attract advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1131 They are a little luckier than you, I suppose. They have some demographic studies, as does their competitor, showing who speaks what languages at home, and mother tongue and whatnot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1132 Anyway, I don't want to drag the analogy out to the point where it takes over the point, but do you have anything like that which will enable me, then, to look at your business case and say, "That makes sense"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1133 Okay, you have 1,100 letters, and you have some ministry, and you have some people who make programs who would like to expand their market, but, to them, that could be just economies of scale. They are already making the programs, so anything they sell here is a little more cream in their coffee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1134 I am sorry to go on so long, but do you have any empirical data here or market research, or is it just a good feeling you have about this place?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1135 MR. GRAY: Chair ‑‑ or Commissioner ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1136 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I like the Chairman part. Go with it.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1137 MR. GRAY: Your turn may come, I don't know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1138 The latest Statistics Canada figures show that, for those who declare a religion, Christianity is 91 percent in Calgary, 92 percent in Edmonton, and 94 percent in Alberta as a whole, compared with the Greater Toronto Area at 81, and 88 percent in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1139 So even as successful as we are in Ontario ‑‑ and we are successful in Ontario ‑‑ there are a greater number of people who declare a religious affiliation ‑‑ a religious faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1140 I would like to ask Janine Maxwell, from our Board of Directors, to address this question, as well as Drew.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1141 Drew is from Alberta and has been very much involved with me in meetings with the independent producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1142 MR. MARTIN: I was born and raised in Alberta, and I have been involved as Vice‑President of AMPIA.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1143 We spent a lot of time visiting with independent producers, as well as members of the Board of Directors for AMPIA, and the Broadcast Committee, as well as members who are writers, directors, service providers and facility providers in the province, and one of the things that is really clear is that, foundational to this province and its success, are family values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1144 In fact, I was in Alan Brooks' office the other day at AMPIA, and when he introduced me to the new Director of Marketing for Alberta Films, he said, "This is Drew, and he's family."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1145 That is really the environment of the industry here. It is very unique.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1146 The people here have had tons of opportunity to leave this province, but they stay here to work because of their passion for really having their families raised with a strong sense of community and because of the values that exist here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1147 These are the people that we talked with ‑‑ probably over 85 different representatives, who do business here all the time, who actually have a passionate commitment to the same values that we share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1148 We have the letters that have been supporting us, which I am sure you have read.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1149 Perhaps Janine could read one, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1150 They all resonate with the same kind of heart that is akin to the CTS approach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1151 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have read the letters, and the passion is there, but there are 1,100 letters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1152 I am not suggesting that you have to go out and find enough letters to make your business plan work, but sometimes people do a market research study ‑‑ and I don't want to beat it to death. You don't have anything like that, but you have considerable experience, and I guess ‑‑ I will make your case for you ‑‑ you are willing to risk some money on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1153 But the case on our side, in case you are wondering why, is, first of all, we like our broadcasters to succeed in Canada. That is something we like, because we like the notion of Canadian broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1154 And we like to use the scarce resources of the airwaves in the best way possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1155 And if you only have ‑‑ I know this is not a fact, but if you had 1,100 viewers, that would trouble us, because we wouldn't be able to see you being able to make a business case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1156 We are also very much aware of how successful you have been in other places, and we are aware of the statistics from Statistics Canada that you quoted.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1157 I really wanted to know whether there was anything more empirical than that, any market research, done either by you or by your programmers, or by associations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1158 You do project, though ‑‑ to get back to the reality of your application ‑‑ on page 14 of your application you project a 2 percent share in Year 1, rising to 2.7 in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1159 Again, you base that, I guess, on what you call the demonstrable pent‑up demand. But how do you project it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1160 How do you turn the enthusiasm of 1,100 people, some StatsCan statistics, which are really on people's deepest religious beliefs, whether they are practising those religions ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1161 I can open up any issue of Maclean's magazine ‑‑ or pick and choose any over the last five years, and they will say: Attendance at church is down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1162 So maybe they are calling themselves Christian, but they are not practising at this particular moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1163 How do you turn that into that kind of hard statistic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1164 How do you turn what you are telling me here this morning, this kind of feeling that is out there, into exact figures, moving from 2 percent to 2.7 percent over seven years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1165 How do you do that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1166 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, while we didn't do an exhaustive research study ‑‑ being a small independent broadcaster, it just wasn't something we felt we ‑‑ I don't want to say needed to do. It would have been nice to have done it, but it is something that we chose not to do because we had all of the other empirical data and all of the other knowledge from the ministry broadcasters, from Reverend Mainse for 100 Huntley Street, in his example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1167 I came to the 2 percent share of tuning, really, based on the Ontario model, the premise being that if we can achieve, roughly, a 2 percent share in Ontario, which is a mature, saturated marketplace, surely we can achieve that in burgeoning markets like Edmonton and Calgary, in a province that perhaps would be even more welcoming to a service like ours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1168 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was the Ontario marketplace saturated with religious broadcasting when you got there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1169 I would assume that the same people watching Playboy Television aren't riveted to the screens on Sunday morning to watch your show ‑‑ although you never know, guilt does funny things to people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1170 When you say a saturated market in Toronto, and a kind of wide open market here, what are you building those phrases on?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1171 MR. STEWART: In part on the number of stations, the number of major broadcasters in the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1172 Eight years ago, when we debuted in Ontario, we didn't yet have a Toronto 1, for example, and we still managed to do quite well and meet our business objectives and our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1173 And it's based on the very nature of our service. We have a little bit of commercial revenue, and we have our block revenue, and the balance between the two coexists in a way that we can fulfil our objectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1174 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But there is a station in Lethbridge right now. It is, obviously, not going to just go away if you come here, and they are being carried in much of the same area that you want to be carried in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1175 They may not have exactly the same carriage rights that you have, but they have a certain market and they have some followers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1176 It is my experience ‑‑ and we will hear from some cable people later, and we can ask them, but it is my experience that broadcasting distribution undertakings are very loath to take stuff off that's popular.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1177 Did that have an impact, the existence of the incumbent operator? Did that have an impact on your projection of a 2 percent market share in Year 1, rising to 2.7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1178 MR. STEWART: From a commercial perspective, it is not a factor, because they are non‑commercial. They don't solicit ‑‑ or they don't sell advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1179 So that part of the equation is not in the mix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1180 Perhaps I could ask Mr. Gray to speak further to that point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1181 MR. GRAY: We don't have a lot of figures from the ministries, but Day of Discovery, which is a well known, long‑time television ministry, gave me a letter stating that they have 19,000 interested viewers in Edmonton, and 18,000 in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1182 Their database showed that's how many viewers they have who are interested in Crossroads Television carrying their program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1183 From the base of support, we know that Crossroads, for example, has many thousands of supporters in Alberta, and other ministries as well. They are a little bit reticent, I suppose, to tell you how many thousands they have, but that's just a sampling.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1184 So we know that there is a great interest in this kind of programming by a large number of people, not just a small ‑‑ the 1,100 who wrote the letters, that's for sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1185 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What was the name of that ministry again, or that program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1186 MR. GRAY: It's called Day of Discovery ‑‑ radio Bible class ministries out of Grand Rapids, Michigan. They do half‑hour weekly programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1187 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So they have 18,000 in one city, and 19,000 in another, which they have in their database?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1188 MR. GRAY: Yes, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1189 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where are these people watching this show now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1190 Where are they getting it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1191 What's their source?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1192 What's the connection between the programmer and the natives of Alberta? What's the connection?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1193 MR. GRAY: How do they already know about the program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1194 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, and why do they need you if they are already getting it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1195 Don't feel bad, it's just ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1196 MR. GRAY: They may be aware that, on average, 25 percent of Canadians have DTH; therefore, 25 percent ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1197 I am not sure what the number is in this area, but they would have the ability to see it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1198 Of course, the other example is that we offer prime time for Christian ministries, and other programs that are non‑Christian, that simply isn't available on normal conventional television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1199 So I think that the fact that our program schedule is ‑‑ that we have a different reason for being, that reason being family values and faith programming, we do programming within prime time which just doesn't happen on other stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1200 So they may well be on a local station on Sunday morning, but they are not there in prime time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1201 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am still unsure, but I am not investing the money either, so I don't have to be as worried about it perhaps as you do, and you don't look worried at all. So we will leave that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1202 Let's go and have a little look at money. I want to look at some of the figures of revenues that you have projected.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1203 I am referring to the charts on pages 9 to 12 of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1204 You filed a lot of stuff in confidence. I don't want to get into that. You can make a slip and, before you know it, some confidential information has come out, and we respect your desire for confidentiality, so I am only wanting to look at the projected figures that you have put in the application which is on the public record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1205 You talk there about national ad sales being projected at $770,000 in Year 1, rising to just over $1 million in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1206 I would ask you to go back and help me with this. Somehow you have come to the basis that you will get 2 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1207 Let's just deal with Year 1, it will be easier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1208 Then, from that 2 percent, I guess you have done some sort of formula to say: With a 2 percent market share, our ads will sell at so much, so we will get $770,000 in national sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1209 Can you put that together for me in some sort of narrative form?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1210 How do you work that number out?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1211 MR. STEWART: Commissioner Langford, I arrived at these figures, basically, taking our Ontario experience in Year 1 through Year 8, to get my seven‑year plan coming forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1212 I basically took our Ontario experience and did the pro‑rations to the Edmonton and Calgary markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1213 I researched the cost per point in the markets ‑‑ this is going back 20 months now, so they may be a tad bit higher at this point, as my colleagues at the other stations have indicated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1214 This is a costing that is achievable and realistic, and it will serve our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1215 I would like to assure you that they are realistic, perhaps a little conservative now, in terms of it being two years later. Both Calgary and Edmonton are stronger markets today than they were when I started these projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1216 In fact, if I think back to the Commission's decision when CHUM was denied their applications prior to buying out the Craig stations, the Commission itself said that the economic indicators were that the markets were turning and coming back, and that they would be stronger, but perhaps just not strong enough at that point in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1217 Two years later, I would respectfully submit that they have arrived and the markets are that strong today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1218 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to come to you, and I think that is a point that you must consider. You have to have a business side of your head here, as well as a programming side and an overall mission side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1219 I guess what I am looking at is, tell me about Ontario. Tell me something that helps me take ‑‑ and I am going back to my first point. We have no empirical data, but we have come to a notion, based on somebody's databank in Michigan, or wherever it was, who may not even have a show up here. Or, if he does, he only has it on DTH. We have moved that figure to a 2 percent market share, and based on that 2 percent market share, we have moved to $770,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1220 Tell me what is happening in Ontario. Tell me how this makes sense, how this progression works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1221 MR. STEWART: Commissioner, in Ontario, as I stated earlier, in a very mature market, a crowded marketplace, CTS was able to garner a share of the advertising dollar, for a number of reasons, one of which, and not the least of which, is that there is a hunger for values and family programming that isn't readily available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1222 Some may call our programming old, but it is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1223 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some may call it what? Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1224 MR. STEWART: Some may call it old programming, as opposed to current ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1225 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Fonz, old?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1226 Surely you jest!
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1227 MR. STEWART: The Fonz will be timeless.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1228 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I hope so, for you. The hair is a little weird, but, anyway, fair enough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1229 MR. STEWART: But the fact remains, from an entertainment value and entertainment standpoint, our programming is very safe, very family friendly. That is part of what we will bring to this province, and these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1230 And there is a market for that. Advertisers are quite comfortable seeking out that kind of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1231 It doesn't deliver big ratings, but they will buy it nonetheless.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1232 In fact, you will rarely find a media buyer putting through a plan that says: Don't buy Happy Days. Don't buy Little House on the Prairie. Don't buy Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1233 But you will find a lot of media buyers coming down and saying: Don't buy Montel. Don't by this show or that show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1234 It's an everyday occurrence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1235 I would submit that the nature of our entertainment programming, which complements our ministry programming, has a comfortable fit for the advertising community, and we don't represent big dollars to their buys. We are often an add‑on or a top‑up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1236 I used to go around in the early days and joke with the media buyers that, if you get one preemption from the big guys, that would fund a campaign on CTS for the week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1237 It is in that context that we know we can get a certain degree of business, and while we don't have any advertising agencies intervening on our behalf, as others do, the fact is, they indicate that the market has a need for another television station, and more commercial inventory is much needed in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1238 They are both markets where demand outstrips supply, and CTS, in that context, will fit in quite nicely, and won't disrupt the existing broadcasters, because we are not talking about the kind of money or the kind of rating points that will disrupt the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1239 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want to be pejorative, but it sounds a little fuzzy to me. I hope it works, but I don't see a nexus between numbers and dollars here. I can't see this as a business plan. It seems to me to be a notion that a lot of people will like this, and then advertisers will say, "Okay, there are enough people."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1240 Surely there is a connection between the number of eyeballs ‑‑ they used to call them "bums in the seats" ‑‑ and when Ford Motor Company thinks, "Gee, let's see what they think of our new pickup truck," or something like that. "Let's put a little bit of money on that channel."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1241 Let's go back to the OMNI example. If there is nobody in town who speaks Mandarin, and they are putting up Mandarin, chances are good, I would think, that the advertisers might just walk right by them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1242 You are a niche marketer, by your own admission. You have used the word "niche". I just don't ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1243 I don't want to beat this to death. If you don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers. But, I must say, I find it difficult to trace. I find it hard to trace myself from the kind of no study to the 2 percent to the $770,000. I don't see the logical connections there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1244 If you do, then there is your answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1245 I thought, maybe, you could tell me ‑‑ unless it is so confidential that you can't ‑‑ what your market share is in one of your other places, such as Ottawa, or something like that, and what kind of advertising you are getting there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1246 I don't want you to give away confidential information, but is there some way you can make a connection from some hard experience like that, which would lead me to believe that your business plan is on more sound footing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1247 I'm not saying that it is not on sound footing, but I can't find the sound foundation here. I have to go on a lot of assumptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1248 MR. STEWART: Commissioner, I wasn't with CTS in the early‑early days of planning on the first round, some 10 years ago. I joined the company very soon thereafter. The original business plan ‑‑ really, what CTS is today, operationally, in terms of advertising revenue, is nothing compared to what it initially was going to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1249 I can't speak to the degree of research that was done at that point in time, but it was, to some degree, faulty, and we created a different business approach very early on that relied, primarily, on national advertising, as opposed to a very large percentage of retail advertising, and very quickly gained acceptance in the advertising realm, if you will, and we did get the dollars coming our way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1250 They weren't at big rates, but it was certainly enough to fill our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1251 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Look, that's your answer, and you will have another kick at the can later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1252 If you want to kick this around among yourselves ‑‑ if you have something more now, I will take it, obviously, but if, later on, in one of the later phases, you want to bring something else to my attention ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1253 We are not a court of law here, we don't all have our evidentiary rules.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1254 If you want to come back with something to clear up that point ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1255 MR. STEWART: I think that Mr. Gray would like to say something.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1256 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1257 MR. GRAY: To add to what Glenn was saying, the breakdown of our revenue is that approximately 55 percent of our total revenue is from the sale of religious block time, and just under 40 percent from total commercial revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1258 So the part that Glenn is talking about is Happy Days and Little House on the Prairie and Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1259 The block programming, which has been under my area, is the ministries; and, yes, they are concerned about the number of viewers, but they are concerned about the response they get ‑‑ the viewers writing in, calling in for the free books they are offering, or donating to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1260 So they judge their success by the response they get. Obviously, the response has been good, and that is why they are all on our station in Ontario, and virtually all of them have said, "When are you going to be ‑‑ "
LISTNUM 1 \l 1261 They have already asked me, "When can we sign a contract for Alberta?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1262 I said, "We have to get a licence first."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1263 So there is interest, because they see their support base wanting it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1264 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are some of them selling to the Lethbridge station right now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1265 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1266 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What will happen then? Will they go on both services, or will they switch to you and leave poor old Lethbridge out there with nothing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1267 MR. GRAY: That is something we don't know, but there is that possibility.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1268 My experience is that ministries like to have more than one exposure in a market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1269 That is just something that we don't know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1270 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you have any in your Ontario experience that are on another service?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1271 MR. GRAY: Vision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1272 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some are on Vision?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1273 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1274 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And they are happy to be on both?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1275 MR. GRAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1276 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The block sales, you sort of touched on the idea that these people are kind of keen to sign up. Do you have some ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1277 I wonder how you come up with the figure of, Year 1, $1,130,000, going to Year 7, $1,540,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1278 Those are pretty exact figures. Have you had contract talks with these people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1279 This isn't a trick question. It is not an offence to have contracts. I don't jump up and go, "Ah‑ha! Caught you, you bounder," but I would like to know how you get these figures so exact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1280 Have you had discussions with them so that you know what they will pay, pretty well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1281 MR. GRAY: We based it on our Ontario experience, and then pro‑rating it into the Alberta population base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1282 Matt, our Comptroller, could speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1283 But, certainly, all of the people that I have spoken with ‑‑ and I have had contact with them over the last eight years ‑‑ there is interest by all of them in the Alberta market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1284 Matt, do you want to speak to that, first of all?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1285 Then, Drew has also been speaking with local ministries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1286 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, from our discussions with block time buyers, we found that Alberta would be, possibly, at 35 to 40 percent of the regional Ontario rate, and we have used the low end of that, the 35 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1287 Basically, it is over the first three years of our regional Ontario experience, as a regional broadcaster there. That is why you get the exactness.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1288 You can blame me for that. As an accountant, I tend to get down to the zeroes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1289 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't blame anybody, I like exactitude. It makes my life easier. It's the lack of exactitude on some of the other numbers that has me a bit concerned ‑‑ not concerned, but kind of a little lost.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1290 You are saying that, generally, they are looking at paying you for their time on the air somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 to 45 percent of what they pay you in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1291 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1292 MR. HILLIER: Thirty‑five to 40.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1293 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Forty percent. I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1294 How does this work? They say to you, "Okay, we think you are going to get," let's say, "2 percent in Year 1," or something like that, and that is, in raw numbers, a lot less than 2 percent of Ontario, "So we are going to pay you 35 percent."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1295 Do you have a little meeting at the end of the year, where you say, "You were low. We got 4 percent. We would like more money"? Or, do you lock yourself into seven years and, therefore, those numbers are what they are, and there is no hope to change them or improve them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1296 MR. GRAY: Commissioner, these are annual contracts that we negotiate with the program buyers, so we review them annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1297 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So, if it turned out to be a rosier situation, you would be perhaps suggesting that they might want to put a little more money on the table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1298 MR. GRAY: We would have an easier time getting an increase from them, let's put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1299 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. That's good to know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1300 Canadian sales of programs, $130,000 in Year 1 in revenues, rising to $160,000 in Year 7, if I have those numbers correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1301 Where do you get those numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1302 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, those are based on the potential sales of our local programming to syndication opportunities, and possibly some co‑production revenue in some of our Christian programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1303 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So this isn't a duplication of what you are already selling in Ontario, this is calculated on the brand new programs you are going to make out here in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1304 MR. HILLIER: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1305 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1306 Are there any other sources of revenue? Do you get donations or memberships, or anything like that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1307 MR. GRAY: No, we don't, Commissioner. We are a not for profit station, but we are fully commercial. We are not a charity, so our revenue is virtually all from the sale of airtime, and a bit of co‑production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1308 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. What about shows that are made by your ‑‑ I don't know whether to call it a parent company or what.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1309 What is CCCI or CCSI, whichever it is ‑‑ I don't know, but there are a lot of "C's" in there ‑‑ that makes 100 Huntley Street, for example?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1310 Do you have a special arrangement with them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1311 MR. GRAY: We always ask our Chairman to explain this one, because it is difficult to explain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1312 MR. VANSTONE: Commissioner, CCCI is a charity, and it does have a Christian mission, and 100 Huntley Street is its flagship program. It produces that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1313 It was the founding impetus for CTS, but CTS is an independent organization. It was designed that way when Reverend Mainse first conceived it, so that each of the ministries would be on a common footing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1314 CCCI pays CTS for its airtime, the same way that another ministry would pay for its airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1315 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is the parent company CCCI?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1316 It's not really. I read through your corporate papers. It's a related company, in a sense.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1317 MR. VANSTONE: It's a related company, it's not a parent company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1318 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's simplify this, if you don't mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1319 They make 100 Huntley Street. Then they buy time ‑‑ let's say that it's two years from now. They would be buying time on your Calgary and Edmonton stations, and they would pay CTS‑Calgary and Edmonton for that time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1320 Would they then solicit donations from people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1321 "They" being 100 Huntley Street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1322 MR. VANSTONE: 100 Huntley Street has a series of stations that it is carried on, not just CTS. Part of their mission is funded through donations, but that is quite independent of CTS, and doesn't form part of CTS's revenue base, other than the airtime purchased.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1323 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is there a connection between the amount of donations or revenue ‑‑ I don't know what to call it ‑‑ revenue coming into 100 Huntley Street which would, then, impact on the price Huntley would pay for the time it buys on CTS's various stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1324 MR. VANSTONE: It is quite independent. CCCI's price for purchasing time for 100 Huntley Street on CTS is the same as another ministry's purchase price would be. There is no relationship between income generated and the purchase price of CTS airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1325 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you set the figure, and you hope you do better, and they hope they are happy with the figure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1326 MR. VANSTONE: We believe that we are a delivery mechanism for their program, which makes it successful for us to sell them airtime in the same manner we sell airtime to other ministries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1327 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you will be financing the start‑up costs, or CCSI?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1328 MR. VANSTONE: No, we will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1329 CCCI ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1330 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: CCCI ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1331 MR. VANSTONE: Just to make it easy, they are all "C's".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1332 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay, that's good. The other one isn't, but anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1333 Well, we have CRTC. We have our share of "C's".
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1334 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are putting out $5 million in financing for this venture, to get it started.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1335 MR. VANSTONE: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1336 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How does that work? Is there an interest rate on that, or is it interest free?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1337 I see interest payments in your projected expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1338 MR. VANSTONE: It is from people who believe in the mission that we have who provide funding. They are accorded an interest rate in the same way as a conventional broadcaster would accord shareholders a dividend rate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1339 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So these are the trust holders that I read about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1340 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1341 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Take me through that, if you don't mind. It's interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1342 You would track, I guess, donations from people, or some interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1343 Tell me when I get it wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1344 How do you collect the $5 million to put out in the trust?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1345 MR. VANSTONE: We offer the certificates to people who are interested in seeing Christian television advance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1346 They are people who support the mission. They are people who have supported 100 Huntley Street over a period of time. They are people who have supported other ministries over a period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1347 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Say I am one of those people. Would I buy a unit of some sort of this trust?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1348 MR. VANSTONE: You would buy an investment certificate, yes, and it would accord you a rate of interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1349 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What kind of rate of interest?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1350 Am I allowed to ask that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1351 MR. VANSTONE: I believe that the current rate of interest is approximately 7 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1352 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's not bad.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1353 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am thinking of my RRSP.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1354 MR. VANSTONE: It's an excellent investment, because it combines both an interest rate and the foundational benefit of the mission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1355 I would recommend it to you, sir.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1356 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am thinking seriously about it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1357 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will have to check with the Commissioner of Ethics.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1358 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1359 How could he be against God? I mean, he is the Commissioner of Ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1360 You have put together a bunch of interested people, and you have the $5 million, and then that goes out to the start‑up costs. Why don't I see the interest rate dropping over the years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1361 When I look at your chart, it seems to be going up, up, up. Wouldn't they be starting to pay some of this off, or is it an interest‑only mortgage?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1362 How does it work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1363 MR. VANSTONE: We have separated the certificates ‑‑ internally, not externally ‑‑ between Calgary and Edmonton and the Ontario service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1364 The Ontario service is starting to pay down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1365 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's coming down now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1366 MR. VANSTONE: It has come through its maturity, and it is coming down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1367 And we have a program to eliminate that. We have a program to eliminate the Alberta start‑up costs at the end of the first licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1368 The nature of CTS, as non‑charity, non‑profit, means that when the resources have met the station's requirements, the excess will go back into programming. That becomes a critical point ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1369 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right. That's pretty clear from your application, that any excess goes in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1370 Although, if I read it correctly, by Year 7 there is a million dollar overage on the revenue side, isn't there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1371 I am going by memory now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1372 Why isn't that going straight back? Why doesn't it always come to zero?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1373 MR. VANSTONE: The fact is that there are requirements, from capital requirements to the repayment of the certificate holders, and we need to follow through on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1374 When there is no other obligation, it will find its way back into additional programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1375 We have made the local program commitments, and that has priority on the way through.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1376 Then, if you like, the excess through that period of time goes to meet the other needs, including the transition to digital.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1377 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are saving a little bit for a rainy day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1378 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, the amortization of the fixed assets will provide for the recovery of some of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1379 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It is as difficult for a Commissioner to understand some of this stuff as it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1380 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: To put it in terms you might understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1381 MR. VANSTONE: The business plan is not quite the wing and the prayer that you offer it to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1382 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, I can see that there is a sound foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1383 This is my last curiosity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1384 In reading about these trusts, I understand that some people, at the end of them, say, "Don't give me back the money. That's my contribution."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1385 That's the feeling I got.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1386 MR. VANSTONE: That has been true with respect to the ministry ‑‑ CCCI. CTS is not in the position to accept a donation. That is not part of our role.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1387 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. So, then, it is just between you and Revenue Canada how you work that out, further down the line ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1388 MR. VANSTONE: It would go back into programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1389 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Even at the CCCI level? It would go into programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1390 MR. VANSTONE: No. CTS is not in the position to give a receipt ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1391 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I know that, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1392 MR. VANSTONE: ‑‑ to anyone who has a certificate overage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1393 If they have a certificate that they want to provide to charity, they can give it to CCCI or they can give it to another charity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1394 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What happens with it then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1395 MR. VANSTONE: It would become redeemed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1396 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It would be redeemed. I see.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1397 And that money would then go off for further work through related ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1398 MR. VANSTONE: Wherever it went.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1399 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1400 I want to ask one more question ‑‑ and I don't want to use up too much more of your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1401 I think it's on page 10 of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1402 I believe that I had trouble there, on the expense side, finding out where your employee expenses are. Salaries, in other words.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1403 It just didn't jump out at me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1404 I assume that some of it is under "Sales", and some of it is under "Administration" and "General", but I had trouble trying to figure out what you had set aside for salaries, and how many employees you might have in this operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1405 I didn't see anything like that here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1406 Maybe it's here, but I just didn't see it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1407 I apologize if it's my mistake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1408 MR. HILLIER: Commissioner, it was probably hard to find because there are not that many additional employees.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1409 Most of our programming will be through the independent production community, so, as far as local office employees are concerned ‑‑ station manager, some administrative support, and some technical support. Three employees in each city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1410 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Can you make me a list, before we are finished here in the next couple of days, of those three employees in each city, and approximately what you have set aside for salaries?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1411 MR. HILLIER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1412 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1413 One of the things we have learned coming to Alberta is that everybody wants a piece of the market, and you can't blame them, but it's hard to pay people here. They all want to go off and be roughnecks up in Fort McMurray, or something like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1414 Even Tim Hortons. If you own a Tim Hortons franchise, you had better be up 24 hours a day to pour your own coffee, because no one will work for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1415 Maybe you could prepare a little list of the jobs and the salaries, to give me some idea of whether that looks like a logical business plan. I would be grateful if you could get that to us ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1416 Would later today or tomorrow morning be doable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1417 MR. HILLIER: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1418 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It shouldn't be a long list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1419 Let's turn to programming, and we will see if we can wrap this up. You have been very patient with me, and I don't want to hold you here all day, but I do have some questions about programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1420 Really, overall, I saw what you had on the television here, and I think you were featuring what is always our preoccupation with balance, and I take my hat off to you, you covered that one pretty well in that film, but I still don't understand something, which may tell you more about me than I would care to have known.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1421 I don't understand "family values" and "family friendly" as kind of a mission statement or a description of programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1422 I guess I just don't understand ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1423 All right, I understand about two little kids going around and talking to everybody and trying to figure out why they should talk to mom and dad, if I got that correctly up there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1424 And I understand that the Fonz is unlikely to offend anyone, except by his hair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1425 But I don't understand what you are selling. Is it safety? Is that what you are saying? There will be no pornography, no obscenities, only good messages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1426 What does this mean?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1427 MR. GRAY: I would like Reverend David Mainse to comment, but in a brief nutshell, you are right, the kind of programming is programming with the ethical and moral values that would parallel the ministry type of programming that is on the station from various faiths. Whether it is Jewish, Buddhist or Christian, there are ethical and moral values, and we want programming that will not offend those values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1428 David, I think you will have some things that you would like to say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1429 REV. MAINSE: Thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1430 Back in 1975, I launched a study into violence in children's television. We got a LIP grant, if any of you are old enough to remember that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1431 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was that the Judy LaMarsh stuff in Ontario?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1432 REV. MAINSE: No, it was federal. The LIP grant was federal. It was a Pierre Trudeau idea.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1433 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Was it LaMarsh who ran that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1434 REV. MAINSE: No, LaMarsh had a commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1435 In fact, she said that if she had read our ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1436 It was parallel to ours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1437 She said that if she had read our study in advance, it could have saved the people of Ontario a lot of money in her commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1438 The commission was very valuable. I want to assure you that I believe that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1439 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Send your donations in. You may be living on them soon.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1440 REV. MAINSE: Let me go back to your statement about considering an investment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1441 A former co‑chair of the CRTC, Rhéal Therien, in fact, was a supporter of our ministry for a number of years ‑‑ the late Rhéal Therien.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1442 Anyhow, he was the one that brought me to appear before his committee on serving the underserved areas of Canada. Out of that came the invitation from the Commission to begin the process of making an application for such a station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1443 We were the first ones to ever do that, before Vision was licensed and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1444 But back in 1975 we did this study. The Hon. Jeanne Sauvé was Minister of Communications at the time. We presented the study to her, and a petition with over 50,000 names.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1445 When she became Governor General, as we all know, the late Right Hon. Jeanne Sauvé suffered with cancer, and passed away ‑‑ an untimely death for a marvellous woman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1446 I was serving as a judge in the International Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion. We had offered the prize to the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain and the Commonwealth for his work with the Refusniks and on medical ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1447 He came to the Convocation Hall in Toronto for his acceptance, and Jeanne Sauvé was our special speaker.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1448 We were together in the Green Room at Convocation Hall before going onto the platform, and she said, "David, when I was Minister of Communications, you presented me with this study from McMaster University," headed up by perhaps the leading marketing research person in North America at the time, and she said, "I put away all kinds of studies and petitions and so on, but yours I could not take off my shelf."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1449 She already knew that she had cancer ‑‑ and this is a serious moment in a person's life.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1450 She said, "I want to tell you that I agonized over my inability as Minister of Communications to change that format," if you will, "of increasing violence year after year, impacting on our children."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1451 She looked at me very intently, and she said, "David, you can do it. You can provide an alternative. You can produce programming."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1452 We began to produce a program called Circle Square, which has morphed into the largest summer camping program in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1453 We have done all kinds of ‑‑ CTV carries every week, and it has for years now, our Kingdom Adventure series, the TQ programs daily, as well as many other children's programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1454 I took Jeanne Sauvé's exhortation to produce an alternative, because she felt powerless to rid ‑‑ those 14,000 murders that children, by the time they get out of high school, have witnessed on television, and things like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1455 That's what we are all about. We are about an alternative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1456 One of the reasons ‑‑ forgive me for taking so much time, but the reason we want to say it over the air, rather than, simply, as we have now, through Bell ExpressVu and StarChoice, covering other areas of Canada outside the primary CTS coverage area, is that, in Edmonton ‑‑ here is an actual marketing research figure, Mr. Commissioner, from Media Stats ‑‑ between Edmonton and Calgary, there are 283,000 people who do not have access to cable or satellite. That is the population of London, Ontario, or the population of Halifax.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1457 They don't have cable. They have not been able to afford it. They may be at the bottom of the scale, or the income level, or welfare people, who have a little, old, beat‑up TV with rabbit ears.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1458 We want these people to have the kind of programming that is uplifting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1459 That is why, for example, all five chiefs of the native bands in the Calgary area sent letters, which are in the file, urging us to have a television station with the kinds of values we represent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1460 I urge the Commission ‑‑ I am retired now, so I am just the old boy sitting in the back bench, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1461 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You must have been something else when you were going full tilt.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1462 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is very eloquent, and I appreciate it. I do. And I understand where you are coming from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1463 I want to look at a little bit of the possible dark side of this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1464 I am sorry to always be bringing up the other side, but you guys do a great job of beating the drum, you don't need me for that, so I have to go on the other side and ask, "Is there a problem?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1465 I don't mean it in any way to be accusatory, I just know ‑‑ we all know that there can be a dark side to this family values thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1466 "Family friendly", I don't think there is a dark side to that, unless you want to watch murder on TV, I suppose; but family values sometimes, particularly in our neighbouring nation to the south, are equated with some very, very strict conservative views, and some of these views can be very, very hurtful to certain aspects of that population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1467 History is full of it. I don't have to give you a history lesson. Whether it is homosexually, or whether it is women sometimes, for goodness' sake ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1468 Maybe this latest fellow, Obama, will stop the oldest one of all. At least, if he gets that done, that won't be a bad day's work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1469 But it's there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1470 And maybe they are not family value people. Maybe they hide behind that tag. I don't know how it works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1471 What steps do you take to make sure that you don't tilt over the edge from the good side, which apparently Jeanne Sauvé was applauding and praying for, to the dark side, if I can put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1472 What steps do you take to make sure that family values don't become exclusionary to a whole bunch of people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1473 MR. GRAY: I would like Richard Landau, who heads up this programming area, to speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1474 MR. LANDAU: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1475 I have in my hand our Code of Ethics. It is a living document at CTS Television. We apply it on a daily basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1476 Everyone who produces programming at CTS and everyone who sells us programming is run through this before they are allowed on the air. That is why you will find the level of complaints minimal, because we make these kinds of points extremely clear right off the bat. We don't want to be purveyors of hatred.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1477 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's a good answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1478 A couple of little, quick follow‑ups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1479 How do you ensure it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1480 You make your own programs, or have them made for you, so there is no problem there. But you are selling time. How do you monitor what is on the air from these people from all the other place, which is pre‑packaged stuff?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1481 MR. LANDAU: To begin with, there are ministries which will never get onto CTS because we know they are trouble.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1482 I will not name them at this moment, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1483 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We don't need names. We are dealing with concepts here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1484 MR. LANDAU: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1485 We know people that we can rely upon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1486 There are other programs that require some pre‑screening, and we catch most of the problems before you will ever see them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1487 So there is some pre‑screening that takes place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1488 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is that the pre‑screening committee ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1489 MR. LANDAU: The Compliance Committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1490 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Compliance and Pre‑screening Committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1491 Is that what we are talking about here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1492 MR. LANDAU: No. The Compliance Committee's oversight is on balanced programming only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1493 The problems tend to arise from broadcast ministries, but there have been some problems along the way that we have discussed with the Compliance Committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1494 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take a simple one. We are bringing a church service on Sunday morning ‑‑ there's a novel idea ‑‑ and the preacher goes bananas. He just loses it up there in the pulpit, and he starts a rant, and it's not pleasant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1495 What do you do?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1496 Do you have a button that you can push?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1497 MR. LANDAU: To begin with, none of it is live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1498 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Nothing is live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1499 MR. LANDAU: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1500 So we have a chance to pre‑screen, and there is the ‑‑ perhaps someone has gone off on us that we have never had a problem with before, that is conceivable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1501 We tend to pre‑screen anyone that we think might be a problem on a program or is new to us. We look at that very carefully.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1502 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If one gets through, what do you do?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1503 Do you try to make it up some way?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1504 Do you put in some sort of disclaimer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1505 Do you explain that this went on, or do you just keep your fingers crossed and hope nobody complains?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1506 MR. LANDAU: Oh, no, we don't keep our fingers crossed, we are proactive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1507 If something gets through and we find the problem, we will find it before the audience very often, and we will correspond with the producer in question, or the broadcast ministry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1508 My colleague Rob Sheppard may have something to add on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1509 MR. SHEPPARD: I just want to add that the process of screening ‑‑ everything that airs on CTS is pre‑screened, including commercials. We have even rejected commercials for content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1510 It is a staff responsibility to pre‑screen everything that goes on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1511 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have three people in Calgary and three people in Edmonton, and that group is going to have to pre‑screen all 168 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1512 That's a lot of television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1513 MR. GRAY: First of all, there aren't 168 hours of paid religious programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1514 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Of course, you are not going to pre‑screen your own, because you have already made it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1515 MR. GRAY: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1516 And we trust the Fonz. He's been around for 20 years, so we don't think he is going to say something wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1517 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: He is unlikely to do anything alarming now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1518 MR. GRAY: So that brings it down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1519 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Although I notice that they brought Orville Redenbacher back from the dead to do more popcorn ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1520 So, you know, anything is possible out there.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1521 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sorry. Let's come back to earth. What are we screening?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1522 You are screening only the block? Is that what you are saying ‑‑ and the church services?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1523 MR. GRAY: That's correct. Those are the kinds of programs we are screening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1524 Primarily, they will be fed out of Burlington. That gets to be another issue with centralizing and master control.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1525 There will be staff to screen, so they will all be screened ‑‑ assuming that the same programs would be airing here as would be airing in Ontario, they will be screened by us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1526 So we won't have that problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1527 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's a nice segue. How many programs which are screened here will be exclusive to here ‑‑ to Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1528 You can do it in broad percentages, if you want.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1529 How many will be already being shown in Ontario, and you carry them out here, as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1530 MR. GRAY: I would say that the majority of the ministry programs will be the same ones that are shown in Ontario. The different programming here would be all of the locally produced ‑‑ Alberta programs produced in Alberta with the Alberta independent producers, with oversight from Alberta managers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1531 So the decisions will be made on content here, in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1532 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am getting a little past Jade's schedule here, but I have a few more questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1533 I don't know how, but I will make it up to you some way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1534 I won't eat lunch. How about that?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1535 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have some questions on programming. There are a few things that I want to make clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1536 Are we all right, Mr. Chairman?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1537 THE CHAIRPERSON: You still have an hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1538 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I still have an hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1539 I won't take an hour.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 1540 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Some of my colleagues have reminded me that we were supposed to take a break, so that's fine with me, and we will go into the actual programming after that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1541 Mr. Chairman, do you want to announce that officially?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1542 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1543 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take 15 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1544 I like the Chairman's job. It's cool.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1545 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15‑minute break, and return at 11:10 a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 10:55 a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:15 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1546 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1547 Mr. Gray and Mr. Langford. Welcome back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1548 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1549 When we left off, we were sort of stepping into the programming area. I have my usual problem of muddification, once you get more than three numbers on a piece of paper.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1550 First, I really want to take you through some kind of facts and numbers, to make sure I have them right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1551 I am referring now to page 21 of your application. On that page you give some hours of different things, and the first one is 11 hours of church services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1552 First of all, is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1553 Does that mean what I think it means, that you are going to bring us to St. Michael's Church, or the equivalent, as we saw in the film, and we are going to see 11 hours each week of church services?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1554 MR. SHEPPARD: It is 11 hours of local church programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1555 That could be anything from a church service to a local preacher leading a discussion group on television, and local music programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1556 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I did read that wrong. It is me who put the word "service" in there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1557 I am trying to look for page 21. Excuse me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1558 MR. SHEPPARD: We used the words "local church access".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1559 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ah! Good for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1560 The word "local" ‑‑ because you are applying for two licences, I have to be a little more definite on it in my own mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1561 Will there be 11 of these hours which will be exclusive to Edmonton, and 11 exclusive to Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1562 Or, do you consider the whole piece of the Alberta pie as local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1563 MR. SHEPPARD: It could be both. It could be 11 exclusive to Calgary and 11 exclusive to Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1564 Our experience in Ontario is that the local church plays an important role in our schedule. In fact, over our licence period, there have been 14 different churches in our licensed area that never accessed television prior to CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1565 We have had some discussion here, in both Calgary in Edmonton, with local churches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1566 Perhaps Drew Martin could speak to that point a bit further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1567 MR. MARTIN: In addition to the churches ‑‑ there are a number of churches that currently either have broadcast equipment in their facilities and/or the technical capability and expertise to be able to produce the kind of programming that we are looking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1568 Also, we have had meetings with a number of para‑church organizations, which would include organizations like Break Forth, which is the largest ministerial equipping conference in North America, which takes place each year in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1569 There are organizations like YC, which stands for "Youth Conference". Over 17,000 young people a year attend that conference. Those people are also very interested because there is a lot of music in that context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1570 Organizations like Compassion Canada, as well as Voice of the Martyrs, Folks in the Family, Watchmen for the Nations, and the Wagner Institute, to name a few, are all ministry‑based organizations that would be interested in programming with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1571 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So each of Calgary and Edmonton would get 11 hours. Some of the 11 hours might be broadcast in both cities?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1572 Is that accurate, just to get to the bottom line of what I am asking here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1573 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1574 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What do you mean when you say "local"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1575 Generally ‑‑ I don't know that we have an actual definition of it cast in stone anywhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1576 Do we, Mr. Counsellor?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1577 MR. McCALLUM: In context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1578 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In context. Everything is in context. Marriage, life, criminal law, it's always in context. It's so difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1579 What do you consider local versus regional?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1580 You used both terms in your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1581 MR. SHEPPARD: In terms of local, our thought is, the local way a church will express itself ‑‑ express its faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1582 How they do that, whether they do that through a church service or through a music program or discussion, it is their own local way of expressing that Calgary or Edmonton church.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1583 Regionally, it may be an Alberta expression, how they express themselves as a province ‑‑ how they would do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1584 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When you say 11 hours of local church access, it might actually be a church within Edmonton or a church within Calgary. It might actually be a discussion group among some ministers, or some people who are involved in these churches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1585 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1586 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I haven't even asked a question yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1587 MR. SHEPPARD: Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1588 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's all right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1589 Will you lend me a million dollars?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1590 Do you stand by your last answer?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1591 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What I am trying to figure out is, when you use the word "regional", you really mean the whole province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1592 Is that what we are talking about here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1593 MR. SHEPPARD: We mean Calgary and Edmonton, combined.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1594 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This isn't a trick question, I am just trying to figure it out. There are no penalties for "yes" or "no" on this question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1595 When you say "local church services", it's not really 11 hours for each of Calgary and each of Edmonton, because there might be some duplication.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1596 MR. SHEPPARD: It may be, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1597 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There are no punitive results from that answer, one way or the other, but I am trying to understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1598 You talk in your application, and again in your supplementary brief, about how you would give away some free time to churches and church groups, I guess because they simply can't pay for it. Would that come into this 11 hours? Is that where the free time is?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1599 MR. GRAY: I will get Richard Landau, from our balanced programming, to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1600 MR. LANDAU: The free time we are speaking about ‑‑ let me make this clear ‑‑ is to other than Christian faith communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1601 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. That would be the Baha'is, or the Buddhists, or whomever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1602 MR. LANDAU: The qualifying groups are Muslims, Buddhists ‑‑ yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1603 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is there any restriction?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1604 Is any recognized religion okay?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1605 MR. LANDAU: According to our code, there are some restrictions. There are classifications. There is a numerical threshold, there is a permanency threshold.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1606 A faith has to demonstrate the ability to be able to solemnize weddings in the province, and it has to have a registered charitable status.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1607 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That leaves me out.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1608 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's go on to somewhere else where you use the word "local". I want to make sure I have it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1609 I am referring to page 21 of your application, and I will read it right off the sheet this time:
"Fifteen hours a week to local balanced programming."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1610 What does "local" mean in that context?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1611 MR. LANDAU: Local balanced programming, if you look at the particular programs on the schedule, will be programming that originates here in the community that is specific to Calgary and specific to Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1612 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So "local" really means "local".
LISTNUM 1 \l 1613 MR. LANDAU: It does, indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1614 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So the 15 hours in Edmonton will be different from the 15 hours in Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1615 MR. LANDAU: Yes, they will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1616 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1617 There are no more points for that, but at least I now understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1618 Well, maybe there are some points.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1619 Yeah, we will give you some points.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1620 MR. LANDAU: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1621 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1622 The four hours of children's programming ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1623 Again, most of these questions are just me trying to understand precisely what people are going to get in their living rooms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1624 Are you going to make those shows yourself, or are those shows you may buy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1625 MR. SHEPPARD: A combination.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1626 Actually, not a combination. It's programming that we would make, and programming that ministries would make, and they may buy the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1627 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They may buy the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1628 Those little kids that we saw going around to different religions and figuring out a little lesson that my grandfather taught me with a strap, "You should talk to mom and dad" ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1629 I like the way they learned it a lot better than the way I learned it, but anyway...
LISTNUM 1 \l 1630 Would that be a children's program, those little excerpts that we saw?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1631 MR. SHEPPARD: No, that was not children's programming, that was the program Seventh Heaven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1632 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Did we see any children's programming on there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1633 MR. SHEPPARD: We did not have children's programming on our video.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1634 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So is it basically children's programming the way I understand children's programming ‑‑ cartoons and that sort of thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1635 MR. SHEPPARD: It's not necessarily cartoons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1636 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm not advocating cartoons, I am just trying to understand what they might see on their television when they turn it on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1637 MR. SHEPPARD: It may be ministry programming using puppets, puppet show‑type programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1638 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And when you say "children and youth", how old are the youth?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1639 How far up the chain does this go?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1640 MR. SHEPPARD: Teenagers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1641 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right to 18, sort of thing, or more like 15?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1642 MR. SHEPPARD: Fifteen to 18, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1643 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would that be that summer camp reality show that I saw described somewhere in your supplementary brief?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1644 Would that qualify as a children's ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1645 MR. SHEPPARD: Circle Square Summer would appeal to the age range of 12 to 18 years old.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1646 Another example of youth programming would be Christian Hit Countdown, which is a music video program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1647 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's the music one, right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1648 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1649 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1650 There is one hour showcasing Calgary independent producers. I found that one on page 25 of the application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1651 I am not quite sure why you chose to isolate that one, since you talk so eloquently everywhere else about giving almost all of it to independent producers anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1652 Is there some special aspect to this hour that makes it different from the rest of the independent production stuff you are going to be showing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1653 MR. SHEPPARD: It is a regional program. It would be open to all independent producers in Alberta. We would be acquiring this program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1654 MR. MARTIN: They are pre‑made programs. We are acquiring those programs for that particular slot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1655 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are just saying, "Show us your best work, and maybe we will play it."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1656 MR. MARTIN: Yes, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1657 It is a showcase of Alberta‑produced programming. It is already in the can.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1658 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. Will you be paying for it, or is it a prize having it on TV?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1659 MR. MARTIN: No, we will be paying a licence fee for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1660 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know, you intervenors out there. There's money coming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1661 I think my last one is the half‑hour showcasing Christian music, played three times a week ‑‑ so that is one and a half hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1662 Is that what we were just talking about, the music showcase one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1663 MR. SHEPPARD: That is a Christian music video program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1664 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The same one we talked about two minutes ago?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1665 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1666 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. There is not a second one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1667 Sometimes these questions are just trying to clear my head, which is a full‑time job sometimes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1668 Last on programming ‑‑ and this is, again, to try to understand some of your terms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1669 Pages 5, 6 and 7 of your supplementary brief list a lot of programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1670 Let's start with page 5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1671 I just want to make one thing clear here. About midway down page 5, in the third‑last paragraph, you say:
"In Calgary and Edmonton, CTS will develop a daily, locally produced program in prime time that deals with social issues, religion, politics, the arts and education."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1672 You say that it will be similar to the Michael Coren show in Ontario, but I guess you will develop a new Michael Coren.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1673 Imagine two of them! It would be wonderful. Clone him.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1674 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have politics in here, and through many errors of history, including the French Revolution and other minor blips, we learned that sometimes politics and religion don't mix very well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1675 So how do you do this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1676 You have your code there, so maybe you can help me with it, but how do you start to bring in politics, education, and things like that, and have a religious undertone as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1677 MR. LANDAU: This is balanced programming, and we take the term "balance" seriously.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1678 For example, with apologies to Albertans, we have people who come on from all different points of view, people like Sid Ryan in Ontario ‑‑ Ontarians know him to be from the far left ‑‑ and people from the right, like Sid Hoy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1679 We are quite careful about balancing who we bring on to speak in political terms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1680 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So long as their name is Sid.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1681 MR. LANDAU: Claire, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1682 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1683 MR. LANDAU: Claire. My apologies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1684 To be very frank with you, in terms of making that kind of programming, we take the whole notion of balance seriously, so we bring people from across the spectrum. That is what we have done in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1685 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One at a time, as I saw Mr. Coren interviewing the agnostic on your little video that you had here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1686 MR. LANDAU: Actually, that was a panel of four. If you look, there are people from all different persuasions there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1687 Sometimes it's one at a time, sometimes it's one‑on‑one. Often enough, we try to have a panel that is balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1688 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I must have missed the establishing shot, I apologize. But I did see him interviewing the one young fellow there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1689 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1690 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's get onto the term "balanced" ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1691 Once more, these people would all be bound by your Code of Ethics. They couldn't go too far to the right, they couldn't go too far to the left, unless there was another view on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1692 MR. LANDAU: You can go far to the right and far to the left, just don't violate the code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1693 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just don't violate the code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1694 MR. LANDAU: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1695 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Don't hold anybody up to scorn ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1696 MR. LANDAU: Don't encourage international political violence, don't encourage violence against your fellow human being, don't target people for humiliation or for conversion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1697 That's the area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1698 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You remember that now, Mr. Chairman.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1699 MR. LANDAU: It's on the record. You have our code.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1700 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's look at the word "balance", which is all over page 6. I am having trouble understanding precisely what you mean by it, and it may be that it has different meanings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1701 We have Up Close and Personal characterized as a station‑produced balanced program.
"Such well known Calgarians as Preston Manning, Philip Currie, Jan Arden, Jerome Iginla, Ian Tyson and Terri Clark are among the guests we propose to feature in intimate, one‑hour interviews that probe each person's achievements, motivations and spiritual foundations."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1702 How do you get balance there? What do you mean by "balance" if you are doing one‑on‑ones?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1703 MR. LANDAU: As an executive producer responsible for a number of series that we have done in Ontario on this basis, you attempt to bring people in from a range of different faith perspectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1704 Here in Alberta, we have already spoken with Dr. Steven Anglin, who I am sure most Albertans know, who would be the kind of guest we might have in Edmonton. He is, clearly, a representative of the Buddhist community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1705 In terms of trying to make balance, you try to choose guests who come from across the range, and their points of view have been informed by their faith; not necessarily from one particular faith.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1706 You are trying to get a deep insight into the person. That's what makes it balanced programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1707 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How many of these would you make in a given year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1708 How many of these shows?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1709 I know that you have repeats and replays, but how many original ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1710 What were they, hour sections or half‑hour sections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1711 MR. LANDAU: Half‑hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1712 Twenty‑six in a ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1713 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, one hour. Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1714 Intimate, one hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1715 How many ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1716 MR. LANDAU: Twenty‑six hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1717 Twenty‑six in Edmonton and 26 in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1718 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Let's deal with Calgary, because we are here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1719 Do you define balance, then, over the whole 26 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1720 Is that how you define it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1721 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1722 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it's not each show that is balanced, necessarily.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1723 MR. LANDAU: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1724 Clearly, if someone comes on and they are informed by one particular faith, it will be hard to get balance in that one program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1725 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. There are six ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1726 We don't have to do each one in detail, but I have Up Close and Personal, which is the one we were just discussing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1727 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1728 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The Spirit of Calgary and Wrap it Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1729 Then, in Edmonton, I have In Depth, Faith West, and Degrees West.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1730 MR. LANDAU: 113 Degrees, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1731 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You're right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1732 MR. LANDAU: It's a meridian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1733 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It seems that some of them you might be able to do balanced per program, and some you have to do balanced overall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1734 Could you take me through and tell me which ones ‑‑ you don't have to describe the whole show, but which ones fit which sort of approach to balance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1735 MR. LANDAU: Let's be frank ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1736 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe we could do it in an orderly way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1737 Do you have the list in front of you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1738 MR. LANDAU: Yes, I do. I am looking at it right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1739 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe you could go down the list and tell me which ones ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1740 Do you have to take the whole 26, or in which ones will you get an inherent balance right in the hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1741 MR. LANDAU: Okay. Up Close and Personal will take all 26.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1742 The Spirit of Calgary, each program will consist of ‑‑ basically, it will be balance within the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1743 Some weeks, because it is covering news, it will be more to one community than the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1744 For example, when the Pope passed away, people would have said that our programs for two or three weeks were very Catholic. We make it up by covering the Danish cartoons. Later on, the programs become very Islamic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1745 From program to program, the round table discussions will draw upon leaders from a range of faith communities, as we have done with Faith Journal, which is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1746 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sorry, you are going too fast for me, if I may interrupt.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1747 Are we still on the Spirit of Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1748 MR. LANDAU: We are, indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1749 That kind of program also can have a round table discussion, which will draw upon faith leaders from various different faith communities to discuss issues of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1750 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are more likely to find a balanced look in each one, but not necessarily ‑‑ as you say, if the Pope dies, it might skew to the Catholic side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1751 MR. LANDAU: Some weeks it tilts more in one direction than others, but, generally speaking, we try to have a balance in each program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1752 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And Wrap it Up?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1753 MR. LANDAU: Wrap it Up is a daily talk show, like the Michael Coren‑type program that you saw, and we will attempt to have balance ‑‑ probably, over the course of a week, you will get a sense of complete balance. Not necessarily each program, but certainly over the course of a week ‑‑ and certainly over the course of the broadcast year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1754 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Depth?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1755 MR. LANDAU: In Depth is similar to Up Close and Personal. It's a different name for a program, and a different city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1756 So, rather than repeat myself, I will say that my comments would repeat for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1757 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1758 MR. LANDAU: Faith West is similar to the Spirit of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1759 113 Degrees West, which is the longitude of Edmonton, is similar to Wrap it Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1760 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What do you do when someone comes in and says, "I've never watched your show before. I just turned it on, and it's all Catholic, Catholic, Catholic."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1761 It just happened that the Pope died, but this person wasn't thinking of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1762 How do you handle that sort of inquiry?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1763 MR. LANDAU: Frankly, that would be a first‑time experience for us. We have not had that in the eight years we have been making programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1764 If I had to deal with it right now, I would say, "You are right, and these are the circumstances under which we are operating. But if you watch us over the next week or two, or if you tune in further along in the program" ‑‑ because we try to balance each program ‑‑ "you will notice that we have a feature about Afghan women."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1765 We try to balance each program. I can tell you, as an executive producer, that it is quite a juggling act between the recognized world faiths, but we do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When I come down to the middle of page 7, where you list more ‑‑ regional programming this time ‑‑ that word "regional" ‑‑ I see Insight and Muslim Insight and Reflections on Buddhism.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1767 If it is all about Buddhism and it's all about Muslim, is it safe for me to assume that you have to watch all of the shows if you want to get a sense of balance?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1768 Because you call them balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1769 Or, is there another way you achieve balance in these shows?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1770 MR. LANDAU: In these two particular communities ‑‑ I should explain why those two communities have been chosen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1771 Census statistics ‑‑ we are due for new religious statistics in March, but the census 2001 statistics show that the largest non‑Christian minority in both communities is Islam, and second is Buddhism. That is why those, in particular, were singled out for regional production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1772 My discussion with the Muslim producer who is going to make a program for me will be, "Listen, we need to show some balance in the program within itself, so be drawing from various strands within the community."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1773 It is not intended to be one particular point of view within that community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1774 If you know something about the Buddhist community, that is going to be difficult anyway. It doesn't break down as one amorphous group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1775 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So your definition ‑‑ and don't let me put words in your mouth, I am just trying to understand this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1776 In these programs, your definition would be: We want this to be a balanced ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1777 This is a show about Muslims ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1778 MR. LANDAU: Islam, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1779 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Islam ‑‑ and we want it to be balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1780 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1781 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In that context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1782 Obviously, we are not going to bring in Catholics, we are not going to bring in Anglicans, but in the context of a show about Islam, it will be a balanced show about Islam.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1783 MR. LANDAU: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1784 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you going to do that show‑to‑show, or do you have to tune in to the whole 26 of them to get the picture?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1785 MR. LANDAU: You would probably have to tune in for a few weeks, because depending upon the program ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1786 We have a program in Ontario called Muslim Chronicle, and one week we will have on a guest who is politically off to the left, and another week we will have someone whose real joy is dahwa, or Islamic teaching. They will draw that person another week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1787 Some weeks we will get someone who is involved in women's issues in the Muslim community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1788 We try to draw upon a range. We talk to the producers and say, "Give us a range of flavours."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1789 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Have you run into any problems where people have said, "No, you're too strong on the Shiites against the Soonies," or whatever?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1790 Or, in your experience in Ontario, has this approached worked?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1791 MR. LANDAU: Not in eight years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1792 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No problems?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1793 MR. LANDAU: None.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1794 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So two things: either nobody is watching, or you are doing a good job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1795 MR. LANDAU: We know the communities very well. I think we have earned their ‑‑ I don't think, I know we have earned their trust.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1796 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That was a joke.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1797 MR. LANDAU: I know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are allowed to laugh.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1799 You can secretly hate me, but you have to laugh for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1800 I think I am fine on Christian Hit Countdown and Circle Summer Square.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1801 I think that I pretty well understand your approach to programming, your approach to the code, your approach to local versus regional, how you oversee things, your committee for doing that, and your people who are watching and pre‑screening ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1802 I do have one last specific question, and I am going by memory, so correct me if I am wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1803 It seems to me that, in response to an interrogatory of sometime in September 2005, with regard to a committee, or a council, or an advisory group that might help you with your multi‑faith programming, you indicated that you would have a five‑person group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1804 Is there any reason why you would have five here and eight ‑‑ and, again, I am going by memory ‑‑ in Ontario?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1805 Why did you change?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1806 MR. LANDAU: The reason being, if you look at the census numbers in Ontario, the number of faith communities that are very closely bunched together in their numbers ‑‑ population ‑‑ the Sikh and Hindu and Jewish ‑‑ and the Muslim community has grown much more rapidly than the others ‑‑ are very close to each other in terms of numbers and size, so we felt that a broader group would give us a broader reflection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1807 Also, we added members to represent London and Ottawa, as the Commission knows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1808 So, here, we would start with five.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1809 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is my recollection correct that you have two Catholics on this one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1810 MR. LANDAU: Indeed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1811 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why would that be, just out of curiosity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1812 MR. LANDAU: I thought you meant that in Ontario we have two Catholics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1813 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Here you would have one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1814 MR. LANDAU: One Catholic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1815 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Perhaps you could refresh my memory on the list of the five.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1816 MR. LANDAU: We have one Roman Catholic, two Christians, or Protestants as you might call them, one Muslim and one Buddhist. That is the five‑member committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1817 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Ontario, did you break it down as far as Evangelical Christians, or is that something that I read somewhere else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1818 We do a lot of reading.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1819 MR. LANDAU: We do have on the committee one Evangelical Christian in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1820 Two, actually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1821 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Two, I thought, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1822 MR. LANDAU: Yes. Two right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1823 One is on leave at the moment, so one active, and one will return in the spring.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1824 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could one of the Protestants be an Evangelical representative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1825 MR. LANDAU: Here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1826 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1827 MR. LANDAU: Oh, certainly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1828 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am not pushing for it, I am just trying to understand it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1829 MR. LANDAU: We would not rule anybody out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1830 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's good to know. We are all looking for future careers. That's excellent.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1831 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How would you have one committee for Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1832 Where do they meet? How do they meet?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1833 How do you do that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1834 MR. LANDAU: The committee will probably alternate between Edmonton and Calgary. I haven't really worked out the mechanics of that, unless they want to meet in Red Deer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1835 I would assume that they would meet once in Edmonton and once in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1836 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The same committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1837 MR. LANDAU: Yes, it will be the same committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1838 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: File into the old Hummer and zip one way or the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1839 MR. LANDAU: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1840 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. That's the way you are supposed to answer these questions. Just give me a little ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1841 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am almost finished.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1842 We sent you an interrogatory on September 3rd with regard to a number of things, but one of them was the specific condition of not broadcasting less than 75 percent out of Category 4 through the day, and no less than 50 percent in the evening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1843 Then, I think you replied on October 7th, and, as I recall, you said that you would accept a condition of licence with regard to the 75/50 split. So I assume that is still on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1844 MR. GRAY: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1845 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You then said, with regard to the second half:
"At no time in our history has CTS TV broadcast programs that, as a balanced religious broadcaster, would require contextualization, as outlined in Part 2(b) of your question, i.e., news magazine programs, and we do not anticipate broadcasting such programs in the future."
LISTNUM 1 \l 1846 But you do have, as we just discussed ‑‑ you do cross the line a little bit into the area of politics and news, and that sort of thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1847 So why would you be adverse to accepting this, just to be careful?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1848 MR. GRAY: Commissioner, I believe there was a follow‑up letter to that where we said that we would accept that condition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1849 I don't have it in front of me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1850 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I will have a peek. I have your follow‑up letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1851 Let me look at counsel, and if counsel nods ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1852 You will accept it. Is that the bottom line?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1853 MR. GRAY: Yes, we will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1854 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That will save a lot of flipping noises in the microphone, won't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1855 All right. We won't flip any more pages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1856 What are the challenges of this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1857 There was no reluctance on your part to have this sort of agreement to these things, but does it impose a challenge in some way, in the sense of perhaps attracting markets, having a little more popular entertainment shows, and that sort of thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1858 MR. GRAY: I think the context, as I was thinking about it at the time, was because of the programming of Rogers and "now TV" and the concept of where that evolved from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1859 The fact that we hadn't scheduled that kind of programming, that was in our minds when we answered that; but as we reflected on it, we realized that there was really no reason not to accept that as a full condition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1860 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It does seem pretty much in keeping with what you are doing, doesn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1861 MR. GRAY: It is, exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1862 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think the Rogers people inherited much of what they purchased, and I am sure they will see the light sooner or later and follow your lead, as they say. But that is perhaps for another day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1863 When you define "religious", and expanding into values‑based programming, how do you make a decision that the Fonz is okay, but something else isn't?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1864 How do you do that? What is the process?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1865 His name isn't Fonz.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1866 He is with the show Happy Days or something, isn't he?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1867 That was so long ago, they had fins on Pontiacs back then.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 1868 MR. SHEPPARD: We look at the entire series.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1869 If we use the Fonz as an example, this type of programming really reflects the ministry program ‑‑ the 75 percent of our schedule that is ministry teaching programming. It reflects it. It is almost the sermon illustration, if you will, in our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1870 In the case of the Fonz, although he may do something bad in the series, throughout the series he learns a lesson, and it is a values‑based or a moral lesson that is learned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1871 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It is almost the classical definition of the dulce and the utile in literature, to delight and to instruct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1872 Boy oh boy, we are getting back there, aren't we?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1873 It's not too often that we speak Latin up here, but once in a while we are forced to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1874 Thank you for that. There may be some further questions that come from staff or my colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1875 I have one last thing that I want to clear up, and I will try to be brief, because it is just straight numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1876 I am not clear on your Canadian talent development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1877 I read one line in an appendix somewhere which led me to believe that you are spending $4.83 million, evenly divided between Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1878 Then, this morning it seemed to me ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1879 By the way, what triggered a bit of uncertainty in our minds was that some of the intervenors seemed to take that and run with it, like they were getting big hunks of it, and I wasn't quite sure ‑‑ you know, are we talking about a million dollars for this and a million for that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1880 I wasn't quite sure that it dovetailed into the figure, because I didn't have a breakdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1881 Then, this morning, in your opening remarks, we heard at the end that, in addition to the $9,660,000, which I guess is the 4.8 from both places, although it is a little bit higher, you are going to put a first year $300,000 Alberta Development Fund together, and an annual $30,000, which would be about $270,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1882 Is that what that would be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1883 Would it be 210?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1884 Boy, I'm glad my kids aren't listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1885 It's no wonder they always want me to do my taxes over again. I never get it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1886 Okay. An annual $30,000, or $210,000 over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1887 Where did this come from, and why should we take it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1888 Even though it's more, isn't it kind of a little unfair to come bouncing in here saying, "We have seen all of the other applications now, and we are popping a little more onto ours"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1889 Help me through this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1890 MR. GRAY: It didn't quite happen that way, I assure you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1891 I had one‑on‑one meetings, and Drew helped me set these up because of his involvement in the Alberta production community with actors and producers and directors. As you meet with these people, you realize that there is a very vibrant community, but they all have mortgages to pay and groceries to buy, and if we want to use the independent production community as much as possible in producing all of our programming, we need to encourage them, and not be a burden on them, at the same time that we want them to develop program ideas and concepts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1892 So it seemed like a good idea, and certainly the producers all indicated that this was something they would like, as we got to know them more and more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1893 It was really only in the last month or so that we came to the conclusion that this is something we need to be doing for the sake of the producers themselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1894 And these would be for programs that would be ‑‑ concepts that would be consistent with the kind of programming on CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1895 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I gather that each city would get the same amount of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1896 Is that the way it would work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1897 MR. GRAY: No, it is $300,000 overall in Alberta, and $30,000 for the annual mentorship fund.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1898 So this is the total in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1899 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's leave those aside.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1900 That is $300,000 and $210,000. That was added this morning, or I first learned about it this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1901 Can you take me through the 4.83, or the half of 9.660?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1902 Just break it down into pieces and tell me where it is going, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1903 If it's in your application, I'm sorry, I missed it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1904 MR. GRAY: I will ask our numbers man to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1905 MR. HILLIER: That represents the local Canadian expenditure on the Alberta production community, and it is for the total original hours that we would be producing for the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1906 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This is the money you are spending on programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1907 MR. HILLIER: That's correct. Our strategy is to use our local programming ‑‑ the independent production community to provide the local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1908 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This isn't above and beyond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1909 In other words, some of this money may go to the very shows we were just talking about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1910 MR. HILLIER: The independent production community will be used to produce our balanced programming, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1911 The "over and above" that you mentioned is the 300 and the 210.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1912 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Generally, in my sense, sitting up here and listening to people like yourselves, and reading applications like yours, when people talk about this, they talk about it as kind of an extra benefit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1913 There are all sorts of words thrown around. "Benefits" when you buy talent development, when you get it for free ‑‑ if "applying" is looked upon as free ‑‑ but it's a benefit to the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1914 It is above and beyond what you would normally do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1915 Let me put it bluntly. You are a television station; you need television shows. That's your inventory. That's your product. That's what you sell, even though you don't, but I mean it in the sense of a standard television show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1916 Do you think it is within your comprehension of a package that you are putting together as part of an application ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1917 Is the way you understand it that you can just take your normal inventory ‑‑ that you would have to have anyway, because if you didn't you wouldn't have a television show, you wouldn't have a service ‑‑ and count that as the Canadian development part of your application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1918 MR. GRAY: The development is just $300,000, plus the mentorship for students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1919 The $9.660 million was the Alberta part of program expenditures in our budget over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1920 But, rather than building a studio and hiring staff and buying cameras, and all the rest of it, to produce all of these programs in‑house, we have met a great many independent producers. We have found production resources. The cameras, the studios, the production units are all here in Alberta, so we felt that it would be more wise to use the Alberta independent production community, under our leadership, to produce those programs ‑‑ the locally produced Alberta programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1921 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I suppose I have made a mistake here, and I apologize for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1922 The 4.8 has nothing to do with CTD then, it is just what you budgeted to buy programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1923 MR. GRAY: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1924 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry, I just got it wrong. Somehow I misunderstood you. I thought you were putting that through as CTD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1925 So your CTD then ‑‑ your commitment to expenditures above and beyond all other expenditures, simply for talent development, or whatever it is called these days ‑‑ they changed the initials somewhere along the line ‑‑ is $300,000 plus $210,000 ‑‑ $510,000 over the seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1926 Have I got that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1927 MR. GRAY: I guess we are arguing over terminology, but we would call it a development fund.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1928 Again, it is not part of our program budget, it is in addition to what we would be paying independent producers to produce programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1929 This is the assistance, the encouragement, the help for them to develop the program concepts. This is not intended to be repaid or taken out of the program budget, this is in addition to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1930 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where in your application, or in your supplementary brief, or in any of the letters that you wrote in reply to intervenors, or anywhere else, did you mention this $510,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1931 MR. GRAY: We did it in our response to the intervention by the Canadian Film and Television Production Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1932 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe someone could help me find that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1933 Perhaps you could find it and read it to me.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 1934 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is that the one dated January 26, 2007?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1935 MR. GRAY: Yes, it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1936 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. I see it down at the bottom.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1937 I am going to make a suggestion here, Mr. Chairman, because this is really my last area of questioning. I know that my colleagues may have some.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1938 We are multi‑taskers here, and we have to scoot upstairs or downstairs ‑‑ I don't even know where I am in this hotel any more ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1939 Are we going up or down afterwards?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1940 THE CHAIRPERSON: Up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1941 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, up ‑‑ to do a telephone conference meeting with our colleagues in Ottawa. I had hoped we could finish, but we may have to bring you back for five minutes or so afterwards, if you could stand that, and you would catch your lunch at the same time, I hope.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1942 I want to understand this. I want to understand what your commitment is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1943 What your programming expenses are, one; and what your set‑aside or commitment for CTD ‑‑ Canadian talent development ‑‑ is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1944 I am sure that you can speak with your advisors or with your lawyer or your counsel, or whoever helps you, to ensure that we are all singing, as they say, from the same hymn book.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1945 I would really like to know what those figures are, and I would like to know where they first arose. Did they first arise in this reply? Did they first arise somewhere else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1946 I just want to be clear on everything. So if you could take some time over lunch, so that we are not talking at cross purposes, if the Chairman agrees, that would be very beneficial to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1947 And I do apologize for dragging you back here after lunch, and to the Chairman for upsetting his finely tuned schedule, but I am not clear in my mind about what this means, and this is a significant part of any application, and I would like to be clear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1948 That is my final area of questions. My colleagues may have other questions, et cetera, so we may be here until midnight, and we will apologize at midnight as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1949 We turn into pumpkins then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1950 Mr. Chairman, if you agree, I would ask you to give me another five minutes with this panel after lunch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1951 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1953 We will adjourn for the meeting and for lunch, and we will reconvene at 1:05 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1:10 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1954 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1955 Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1956 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1957 I think what I am going to do is just ask you if you have more information for me, some clarification which will make my understanding of program expenses versus CTD a little more comprehensive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1958 MR. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1959 I will ask Fred Vanstone, our Chair, to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1960 MR. VANSTONE: Commissioner, you talked earlier about definitions in context, and perhaps that's what we have here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1961 It appears that our discussion has led you to the wrong conclusion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1962 The $9.6 million in expenditures that we are planning are expenditures to be made through the independent Alberta production community for our locally produced programming. It has not been our intention to have represented that in any other manner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1963 The $210,000, the $30,000 per year, is an amount to be directed through the independent production community for the training of young producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1964 The $300,000 represents moneys directed toward developing program proposals from the independent community. Not all proposals, obviously, will be accepted. We thought it right to provide some funding that we viewed akin to providing some funds for an advertising agency in a proposal stage, and we felt that the expenditure of those moneys would serve to jump‑start, if you like, or provide ideas and development faster, and allow us to come on the air with those commitments in a faster timeframe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1965 Those dollar amounts, when amortized over the term of the licence, were not considered material.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1966 The information was provided at the intervention stage, and it is clear in looking at the other applications that the numbers have no bearing on positioning our application relative to any of them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1967 If we have misled you, we apologize. Perhaps this clarification will remove or lessen your concern about our business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1968 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1969 I want the record to show clearly, and I want you to understand, that there is no question in my mind at all of being misled or in any way of being fudged or fuzzified.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1970 I think that I read it incorrectly. I think the mistake is mine with regard to the 4.8, and I am grateful that you have clarified it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1971 I do have one question about ‑‑ can we just call it the $510,000, the $300,000 plus the 30 times 7?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1972 Was that first mentioned on January 26, 2007?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1973 Did that exist anywhere else on the record, other than that response?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1974 MR. VANSTONE: That was where it was first introduced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1975 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think that answers my question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1976 It will be up to the Commission, I want you to understand, to put what weight we think should go on it, in the sense that I believe ‑‑ I may be wrong on this, as well, but counsel will correct me if I am ‑‑ I believe the record was open at that point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1977 In other words, if that was first put there, though for the most innocent of all reasons, it could be construed as having been put there in a kind of bid against someone else, because you were cognizant of all the other records.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1978 That is certainly not an accusation in any way, we just have to take absolute care that, as much as possible, we ensure equality for all in the application process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1979 That doesn't necessarily mean that it will be put in the garbage can or refused or anything, but it will be given the weight that we can give it, as we approach it in the context of when it was first publicized, and what information you had at your disposal at that time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1980 I am sure the independent production people will be ever grateful to have extra money, no matter what it is labelled as in this process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1981 That certainly completes my questions. My colleagues may have some, or the Chairman, but that completes my questions, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1982 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1983 Regarding your last reply, we will surely not make a statement today. We will take that reply under advisement, and we will eventually make our final decision with respect to that specific item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1984 I know that Commissioner Cram wants to ask you a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1985 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1986 I think it was you, Mr. Gray, who said that your block programmers ‑‑ that Alberta was a large part of their donor base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1987 Was that the motivation for this application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1988 MR. GRAY: I think the motivation was the reason that CTS ‑‑ Crossroads Television System ‑‑ existed in the first place, which was the desire to present ‑‑ and here we go again ‑‑ family values programming, ministry programming and faith values programming to have a positive television influence, which we did in Ontario, and which are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1989 And for a marketplace that can sustain new growth and new stations, we saw Alberta as the next logical place, along with the fact that ‑‑ how do you say it delicately ‑‑ it is a Bible belt area of the country. There are a great many people of Christian faith who like these programs and want them, and they are not available, to any great degree, on the conventional stations now in these two cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1990 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have they spoken about an interest in other parts of the country?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1991 MR. GRAY: I haven't talked to them about other parts, only about Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1992 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So you went to them and said, "Are you interested in Alberta?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 1993 MR. GRAY: Yes. We told them, as we talked to the various clients, that we were applying for Alberta. "Are you interested?" Without exception, they were all interested.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1994 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am fascinated; Statistics Canada still does the religious background on the census?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1995 I thought that ceased in 1996 or something.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1996 MR. GRAY: It is slow in coming, but they still do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1997 Richard is more on top of that than I am, so perhaps, Richard, you could comment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1998 MR. LANDAU: If you wish, I could provide the URL to your counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1999 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I think we can probably get it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11000 It is along with the census, though, still?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11001 MR. LANDAU: Yes. "2001 Community Profiles", Statistics Canada census figures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11002 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. We were getting into this circular argument about the fact that the Day of Discovery has donors, but they haven't seen the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11003 Is it possible that some of these same major ministries also have radio programs that would be heard?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11004 MR. GRAY: Yes, that is true, they do, and they have been on literally hundreds of stations in the U.S., and probably dozens of Canadian radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11005 "Friend", which is a little daily devotional book, is a huge source of names for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11006 So, yes, it is quite possible that they have subscribers in these two cities who have not seen a television program, but who have listened to the radio version, and they are on their mailing list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11007 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Did you air the 100 Huntley Street where there was a complaint that went to us about an anti‑gay comment?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11008 MR. GRAY: We probably did. If you had a complaint ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11009 We have aired every 100 Huntley Street program since we have been on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11010 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I recollect that we made a decision on one, and I cannot remember, for the life of me, what it was about, but I know it was on 100 Huntley Street.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11011 MR. SHEPPARD: I don't recall ‑‑ the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council complained that ‑‑ it came back to us that it was a violation of our Code of Ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11012 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are a member of the CBSC?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11013 MR. SHEPPARD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11014 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11016 Mr. Gray, you are applying for analog transmission in both Edmonton and Calgary. As you are surely aware, the U.S. is currently moving toward digital, and the cut‑off date has been scheduled for February 2009.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11017 Industry Canada has sought the opinion of the CRTC, as well, on the shutdown of analog transmission to take place at some point in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11018 The Television Review Hearing raised some questions regarding that, and numerous intervenors suggested two years after the U.S. shutdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11019 Is there a given reason why you have chosen to go analog at this time, when everybody is thinking of moving toward digital ‑‑ HD?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11020 MR. GRAY: Yes, there is. As Reverend Mainse so eloquently said this morning, approximately 15 percent of the population of both cities does not have cable or satellite subscription; therefore, they depend on over‑the‑air television, and I don't think it is a long leap to suspect that most of those sets are still analog.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11021 So a population the size of the City of London, Ontario, or Halifax, approximately, would be without service, even if we were on digital and everyone on digital got it on basic service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11022 Our reason for being is to reach these very people, because they have spiritual needs. That is our main reason for doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11023 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's say that the shutdown date is put at 2011, as has been suggested. How will your business plan be affected if you are granted a licence in 2007, and you are on the air sometime in 2008, and by 2011 you have to go to digital?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11024 How will your business plan be affected?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11025 MR. GRAY: I think that is a plan that will require Board approval, so I will defer to our Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11026 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, we will adhere to the direction of the Commission and Industry Canada at the point in time that those instructions are given, and we will provide digital service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11027 We can provide digital feed to the cable systems through fibre optics, it is the over‑the‑air signal that we are proposing to leave in analog form.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11028 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, at the studio level, you will be planning to go digital at some point in time; so at the time you will be building, you will be building digital facilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11029 MR. VANSTONE: We will be building in a manner that we can provide a digital signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you figured out the cost that will be incurred in moving from analog to digital?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11031 Is that something you have started to look at?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11032 MR. VANSTONE: Yes, we have considered it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11033 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you share some of your results with us?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11034 MR. VANSTONE: The Ontario station is preparing to go digital for a shorter time period, next year I believe. We believe that there will be a cost of somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 per location.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are your applications severable? Could we only grant you Edmonton or Calgary, or would you absolutely need to have the two?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11036 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, obviously, we would believe that it is stronger for both locations. We believe that both locations warrant the kind of service. It is alternate service to what they now receive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11037 We would prefer if it were looked at in the context of both cities, but if, in the Commission's judgment, it were to award one or the other, we would adhere to that decision and provide the programming that we have included in our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11038 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would be the impact on your business plan if the Commission were to grant you a licence and also allow The Miracle Channel to expand into the markets of Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11039 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, The Miracle Channel does not propose commercial advertising, so we don't see any particular effect there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11040 The only possible concern we see is a potential negative competitive impact on Canadian paid religious broadcast rates.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11041 It's hard to know whether that would take place or whether it wouldn't. If that became a reality, it would serve to negatively impact our revenue stream.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11042 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram alluded to my next question. Over and above The Miracle Channel, there are a good number of religious radio stations operating in Alberta, and they are also soliciting donations and selling ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11043 Do you think there are enough advertising dollars to sustain all of these players, including yourself?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11044 MR. STEWART: Mr. Chairman, we won't impact the radio stations, because it is not our intention to sell a great deal of local advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11045 In our figures filed, we are proposing that we will probably do a 95/5 split, so the amount of money ‑‑ and it is, literally, $40,000 or $50,000 a year in local ‑‑ we don't envision coming from any advertisers who are currently advertising on religious radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11046 If there is some cross‑over, we believe it will be incremental revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11047 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the national level, what kind of advertisers ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11048 Well, they are already on the air on your Ontario stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11049 What type of advertisers do you have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11050 MR. STEWART: We have all of the major ‑‑ not all of the majors, we have a good number of the majors, Procter & Gamble, and so on and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11051 The curious thing about our experience in Ontario, because it is a mature market, we don't have every advertiser on air in Ontario. We are a long ways from that ‑‑ and still achieve our objectives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11052 What will be interesting as we go forward, if licensed, is to see how many advertisers will buy us in Alberta, in Calgary and Edmonton, but still won't buy us in Ontario; the distinction being that this is an underserved marketplace, in terms of supply and demand, and Ontario is a very mature market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11053 We are not a "must buy", by any sense of the word, in Ontario. I believe we will fare better in Alberta, based partly on supply and demand issues, and partly on the nature of our service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11054 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will be my last question, and it is, more or less, a question of curiosity, and I have already put this question to some religious radio applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11055 I notice that you always consider Roman Catholics as being different from other Christian groups. Is it because you believe that Roman Catholics are not Christians?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 11056 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was told, from the very first day I went to school, that I was a Christian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11057 MR. GRAY: We had better have our pastor/leader/founder answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11058 REV. MAINSE: By no means. There are Christians in every group and there are people in every group who go through the motions that are not Christians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11059 For almost 20 years I had with me, every day on the air ‑‑ or almost every day ‑‑ on 100 Huntley Street, Father Bob MacDougall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11060 Cardinal Carter, the late Archbishop of Toronto, had me preach a mission for the Roman Catholics in Varsity Stadium. He was a very open man.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11061 I always maintain that Jesus gave three categories: hot, cold and Luke.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 11062 REV. MAINSE: There are the hot kind in every group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11063 You understand what I mean.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11064 The hot kind will want to communicate the message which they love with such passion. They would consider it the most selfish thing if they kept it to themselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11065 That's why we work together with those who are Christian, regardless of what the name might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11066 Here in Calgary, Bishop Fred Henry is a good friend of mine, and he has been on 100 Huntley Street a number of times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11067 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is the best answer I ever got. Thank you, Reverend Mainse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11068 Now I will ask our legal counsel if he has questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11069 MR. McCALLUM: Very briefly, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11070 In your application you said that you were hoping to generate some revenues from incumbent stations and some U.S. border stations. Could you elaborate on what you were hoping to get from U.S. border stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11071 MR. STEWART: We anticipate not affecting any of the existing stations to any degree that is significant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11072 I believe that if we take away money from any stations, it will be American first, and then it will go through the pecking order.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11073 But we are realistic with our expectations, and we are not going to take any money away from CTV or CanWest or even the City TV stations. We won't be trading at the same cost per point; not because we don't want to, and not because we don't think we are of equal value, but the truth is, media buyers will not give us that same value.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11074 So we don't need to diminish the value in the marketplace whatsoever. That is our reality in Ontario. It is the planned reality going forward in Alberta, but believe me when I say that we try to get market value all the time. That's my job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11075 MR. McCALLUM: But you would be targeting Spokane stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11076 That would be it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11077 MR. STEWART: We wouldn't be targeting anybody specifically. That is where I expect ‑‑ if we had any negative impact on anybody, it would be Spokane first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11078 MR. McCALLUM: What do you think in your schedule would attract advertisers from Spokane to place with you rather than to place with someone else?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11079 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, it's not American advertisers, or Spokane advertisers, it is those agencies in Canada who are allowed to buy American spill stations on behalf of their clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11080 Some agencies won't allow that, others will. It is purely for efficiency matters, it is not a question of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11081 MR. McCALLUM: Do you think you will repatriate some of that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11082 MR. STEWART: I believe we will, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11083 MR. McCALLUM: Do you have any clue how much that might likely be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11084 MR. STEWART: I would like to say that it would be the lion's share, but that is not realistic either.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11085 The first plan of attack, of course, is to approach all of the clients who we do have in Ontario and find out what their needs are here, and then carry them forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11086 But, as I stated earlier, I expect almost the inverse of that, in that there will be advertisers that we will have on our Alberta stations that I still won't be able to get in Ontario, just because of the supply and demand factor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11087 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11088 In responding to Commissioner Langford about national time sales, I think you said that you developed the projections based on the Ontario experience. Would that answer also apply to local time sales?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11089 MR. STEWART: Yes. In fact, if I take you back eight years to the original plan ‑‑ and, again, this was before I was there ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11090 In fact, when I arrived, we had five or six retail reps. We weren't generating any revenue locally. They weren't earning a livable wage, and we very quickly changed our direction, which was to focus on national advertising and let these good folks go on and get jobs that would pay them some real money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11091 The nature of our service is not one where we are going to drive large retail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11092 If a local car dealer in either Calgary or Edmonton wanted to buy time on our stations, of course, we would be happy to sell it, and our local management will be equipped to be able to handle that. It is not our intention to hire reps to go out and sell a lot of local advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11093 A lot of local money will be church related, for cause, not for profit related. If a group of car dealers wants to buy us because of the nature of our service, by all means. We won't turn it away, but we are not going to make it our job to go out and drive retail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11094 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11096 Mr. Gray, if either yourself or any member of your team wishes, I will give you two minutes to tell us, in your own words, why you think the Commission should grant you the licences you have applied for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11097 MR. GRAY: I wasn't prepared to make that speech, so I am speechless at the moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11098 MR. VANSTONE: Mr. Chairman, we believe that this service is different from anything else that is available in the community. We believe that in each of Edmonton and Calgary there is a need to be met, with programming that is alternate to that which is available on the other services at the moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11099 Our station is an English‑language station. There was reference to the limitation of Mandarin earlier in the morning. We broadcast in the English language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11100 We have a level of success in Ontario that we believe we can bring to Alberta, in the Edmonton and Calgary markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11101 There has not been another demonstrated broadcaster that wants to bring religious programming specifically to those centres. We believe that we can offer that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11102 Most importantly, speaking as a western Canadian, we believe that these stations should reflect the communities in which they serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11103 We will apply the lessons we have learned in the Ontario market to these markets. We will provide the support mechanism. We will have some efficiencies, which we think will help us deliver the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11104 We believe that the program expenditures to be made in these communities will be significant for the producers and the television folk in these communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11105 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11106 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanstone, Mr. Gray, Reverend Mainse, and to all of your team. Thank you for an excellent presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11107 We will now move to the next item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11108 THE SECRETARY: I would now call The Miracle Channel Association to come forward to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 11109 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Items 3 and 4 on the agenda, which are applications by The Miracle Channel Association for licences to operate English‑language transitional digital television programming undertakings in Calgary and Edmonton, associated with its existing television station, CJIL‑TV, Lethbridge, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11110 The station would operate in Calgary on Channel 15 B, with an average effective radiated power of 76.5 watts, a maximum effective radiated power of 130 watts, and an antenna height of 216 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11111 The station would operate in Edmonton on Channel 21 B, with an average effective radiated power of 75 watts, a maximum effective radiated power of 128 watts, and an antenna height of 133 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11112 Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Dick Dewert, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11113 You will have 30 minutes to make your presentation, Mr. Dewert.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 11114 DR. DEWERT: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Staff. My name is Dick Dewert, and I am President of The Miracle Channel Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11115 The applications before you today are to obtain licences for the rebroadcast of the CJIL‑TV signal from Lethbridge, Alberta, to Calgary and Edmonton via digital transmitters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11116 With me today, starting on my immediate left, is Mr. Gordon Klassen, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Corporate Affairs. To his left is Mr. Kent Prestage, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Finance. To his left is Mr. Jonathan Koopmans, The Miracle Channel's Vice‑President of Engineering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11117 Mr. Chair, we are pleased to be given this opportunity to appear before you today with applications that, we feel, will greatly enhance television broadcasting in the Province of Alberta, and, more specifically, in the urban centres of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11118 We will also outline our reasoning for the negative impacts that would likely occur should a decision be made that, effectively, cuts off our provincial market of origin to us, while allowing similar competitors from other regions of the nation to benefit from the reviewership and revenue base that we have created over the past decade.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11119 CJIL‑TV, known as The Miracle Channel, has broadcast its religious programming from Lethbridge, Alberta, since 1996. Over the past 11 years the channel has expanded its signal, due to the demand from its target audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11120 These expansions have included transmitters in Bow Island, Alberta, and Burmis, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11121 In addition, as a distant signal on the eligible satellite list, The Miracle Channel has been distributed via DTH satellite and cable systems across Canada, with an audience reach of more than 4 million householders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11122 Approximately 80 staff and numerous contractors and volunteers work from our 77,000 square foot facilities in Lethbridge, making us the largest broadcast facility of its kind in southern Alberta, outside of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11123 This growth has been accomplished almost exclusively through the financial support of grateful viewers and would‑be viewers who, in faith, support The Miracle Channel in the hope that it will one day become available to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11124 The Miracle Channel is a proven success, as we have risen from the status of a novice broadcaster in 1996 to become a nationally and internationally sought‑after entity and a valued corporate citizen in the Province of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11125 Prior to our existence, there were very few options for the small, independent, religious television producer to access the Canadian airwaves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11126 When we were originally licensed, we took the opportunity to work with and help develop the religious broadcast industry in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11127 For example, a few of the independent programs which received their start through the direct efforts and cooperation of The Miracle Channel include: Word of Faith, Passionate Women, On the Edge, Marketplace Matters, For Life, Times are Refreshing ‑‑ all of the previous from Alberta ‑‑ River of Life, Songs of Living Waters, Joy and Strength, Call to Victory, Pain de Vie, Fire of God, Arise, and Off the Wall, which is also from Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11128 Truly, our story is a testament of how a Canadian broadcaster, in a marginal market, can achieve success beyond the natural odds, and is a reflection of the pioneer spirit so prevalent in our province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11129 This afternoon, Mr. Chairman, we wish to briefly outline our reasoning in support of these applications and how Commission approval of these added transmitters in Calgary and Edmonton would add to the diversity and needs of the public while, at the same time, maintaining the success and course of existing broadcasters in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11130 Firstly, we believe there is a strong and demonstrable need for the terrestrial airing of The Miracle Channel in these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11131 Since its beginning, would‑be viewers in Calgary and Edmonton have requested that we bring our unique programming to their region. We have responded to these requests by providing our signal on DTH satellite services and to many Alberta cable systems bordering the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, including Persona Cable, Camrose Cable, Monarch Cable Systems, Slave Lake Cable, Northwestel Cable and Northern Cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11132 Unfortunately, even though we are on Shaw Cable in the southern Alberta region, due to mandatory carriage pursuant to section 17 of the Broadcast Distribution Regulations, we have been unable to enter into an agreement with Shaw Cable to carry our channel in any tier in either Calgary or Edmonton. This, despite the thousands of requests that Shaw customers and would‑by customers have submitted over the past 11 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11133 The Commission will note that this statement is reflected in the many letters of support received by individuals in these cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11134 As a result, there is widespread availability of The Miracle Channel in our province, with the exception of two gaping holes ‑‑ well, actually, three ‑‑ the cities of Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11135 We have attempted to fill these gaps, without success, since the cable carriage of our signal is at the discretion of the local cable provider.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11136 We have been perplexed by the fact that an Alberta‑based broadcaster so widely viewed across our nation, the U.S.A., and abroad cannot secure cable carriage right here in our province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11137 As a result, The Miracle Channel has been forced to seek alternative means of providing its signal to these major urban centres within our province of operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11138 This is why we appear before you today, on behalf of the many viewers in these centres who seek to benefit from the local availability of The Miracle Channel brand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11139 The need for an Alberta‑based religion channel in Calgary and Edmonton also follows the current religious trends. Statistics Canada has revealed that many Canadians, apparently, prefer to engage in some religious practices in the privacy of their home, rather than, or in addition to, religious practice in a public meeting place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11140 According to the Ethnic Diversity Survey conducted in 2002, nearly half of the people who do not attend a religious service regularly, but who do engage in some kind of activity on their own, attach a higher degree of importance to their religion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11141 We regularly hear from many viewers who affirm this view by their written comments, in which they attach the significance of The Miracle Channel as an important part of their religious expression.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11142 In their last published federal census, Statistics Canada reported that approximately 74 to 77 percent of the residents of both Calgary and Edmonton expressed a religious affiliation. This, coupled with the evidence that more people are seeking religious expression in their home, clearly makes a compelling argument for the need of religious programming, and, in our opinion, the Alberta‑based Miracle Channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11143 Secondly, the viability of The Miracle Channel is proven with a track record of success, financially sound accounting, and state of the art digital‑based production facilities in Lethbridge, Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11144 Our infrastructure, in terms of studios, production, programming, staffing and administration, is already in place and operational.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11145 We feel that this is significant, in that it precludes the need for additional stand‑alone facilities in both Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11146 In the CRTC's Broadcasting Decision 2003‑601, the Commission noted that the Applicant CTS expressed the view that stand‑alone religious television stations would not be viable in Ottawa or London because of the high capital cost for establishing such stations, and the more limited advertising dollars available to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11147 As a result, the Commission favoured the Applicant's proposal to rebroadcast its existing signal in these locales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11148 In hindsight, it was a wise decision, as these rebroadcasts are functioning successfully today in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11149 Unfortunately, this was not the case in Vancouver, where another broadcaster, Trinity Television Inc., established a stand‑alone religious television station, only to see its success undermined by the economic realities of such an operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11150 We agree that the rebroadcast of an existing Alberta religious station, such as The Miracle Channel, could best serve these cities and may not be subject to the possible failures that could result from a greater risk of two stand‑alone operations. We feel that true, for our sake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11151 We produce more than 500 hours of original programming each year, broadcast more than 1,700 hours of original programming, provide production and broadcast facilities for independent producers from across North America, and provide the staff and resources necessary to produce documentaries and cover events throughout Alberta and other parts of Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11152 Many of our productions have won or been nominated for media awards, including the Aurora Awards, Creation Art's Media Award, Best Talk Show with the National Religious Broadcasters Association, among others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11153 The Miracle Channel has attracted the interest of other national media, and I, personally, have been the honoured recipient of Her Majesty the Queen's Jubilee Medal, recognizing my contribution in the founding of The Miracle Channel for the spiritual benefit of Canadians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11154 In short, The Miracle Channel has taken its place as a valued and important part of the Canadian broadcast landscape in terms of spiritual significance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11155 Beginning in 2005, The Miracle Channel began exporting its signal to other regions of the world, including the U.S.A., the Caribbean and Europe, with plans to continue adding our unique brand of Canadian religious programming to many other continents, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11156 Thirdly, in our opinion, adding The Miracle Channel to the Calgary and Edmonton markets would not create any hardship for other local broadcasters. Our revenues, for the most part, are from viewer donations and, by condition of licence, we do not broadcast commercial advertising, with the exception of religious goods and services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11157 As such, we will not be soliciting any national or local advertising. Therefore, The Miracle Channel will not create a financial difficulty for any existing broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11158 In this regard, the intervention submitted by CHUM Limited to the other Applicants states of The Miracle Channel:
"As the programming on this station is very niche and different from the incumbents, it has very limited revenue potential, and The Miracle Channel does not sell commercial airtime, it is unlikely that this application would have a significant impact on CHUM's applications."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11159 In addition, The Miracle Channel has not received an opposing intervention from any existing broadcaster in the affected areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11160 The possibility also exists for cooperation between The Miracle Channel and the existing broadcasters in terms of shared promotion and services that would make our addition to these regions a benefit for all concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11161 In fact, we already have worked with some broadcasters in these regions in areas of shared promotion and resources, and through our purchase of advertising on other stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11162 We believe that this could be further enhanced by the approval of our applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11163 We note that in its intervention to all Applicants, Shaw Communications opposes applications for new television programming undertakings, unless the Applicant states that it waives its rights under the BDU regulations to distribution on the basic band and distribution on a non‑restricted channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11164 The Miracle Channel Association further notes that Shaw Communications has stated that it may be able to accommodate common channel placement across its systems in return for waiving the basic band requirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11165 The Miracle Channel has received a great amount of response from supporters in other cities serviced by Shaw Cable Systems, who are also requesting The Miracle Channel signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11166 For this reason, we would consider waiving our rights under the BDU regulations to distribution on a lower basic band and distribution on a non‑restricted channel, providing a suitable channel placement can be agreed upon with Shaw Cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11167 In terms of programming, we point to our existing program schedule. Since we are asking for the rebroadcast of our existing channel, there are no empty promises or assumptions. What our viewers are enjoying today is what the viewers of Calgary and Edmonton can also look forward to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11168 While our programming reflects the local needs of our viewers, it also has showcased many of the religious stories and ministries from the Calgary and Edmonton regions, which make up the unique nature of the Alberta faith mosaic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11169 Some of these events have included the Global Day of Prayer in Calgary, the Break Forth Conference in Edmonton, the YC ‑‑ Youth Conference ‑‑ in Edmonton, the Benny Hinn Crusade in Calgary, the co‑sponsoring of the Ron Cannoli concert in Edmonton, co‑sponsorship of the Shay Music Awards in Calgary, and the sponsorship and coverage of the Watchmen gatherings in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11170 We have promoted and covered the Calgary Street Church, Mustard Seed Church, the Influencing Cities, Impacting Nations Conference in Red Deer, the Calgary Dream Centre, the Extreme Dream Ministries in Edmonton, Victory Bible College, Centre Street Church, First Assembly, and Calgary Christian Centre, to name a few.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11171 We presently assist a number of independent religious producers from Calgary and Edmonton in the production and airing of their programs, including: Times are Refreshing, Ministries of Calgary; For Life, Ministries of Calgary; Voice of the Martyrs in Edmonton; and Off the Wall ministries in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11172 We have provided consultation and workshops for many other producers just getting started in the religious broadcast industry, and have had thousands from Calgary and Edmonton come to Lethbridge to tour our facilities and attend our special events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11173 We also host interns each year from across Canada, who come to learn the many aspects of broadcasting in our operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11174 In addition, we have hired some of the students coming from the broadcasting program at the Lethbridge Community College, and see them now as mature professional broadcasters in their own right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11175 Our program production, while providing for the needs of our southern Alberta audience, has reached beyond our borders to ensure the diversity of topics and views to which we are committed. This has meant drawing on‑air guests from the nearby cities of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11176 Some of these people have included Bishop Fred Henry of the Southern Alberta Diosese, University of Calgary Professor Irving Hexham, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Western Standard Publisher Ezra Levant, Muslim Free Press Publisher Syed Soharwardy, Secular Humanist Jeffrey Perkins, A.W. Barber, representing Calgary Buddhists, and many more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11177 If granted licences for these cities, we would continue our commitment to exploring the issues of faith and showcasing the expressions of spirituality found within our nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11178 Technically, our engineering briefs have been submitted to and approved by Industry Canada, and we are ready to commence the installation of what may well be the first digital television transmitters to service these two major centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11179 We have cooperative agreements with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for broadcast equipment placement in their towers in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11180 As indicated in our technical brief, The Miracle Channel strives to be at the forefront of emerging technologies and has been the prototype and testing ground for some of the new advances in broadcast technology, in cooperation with major broadcast equipment manufacturers and distributors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11181 We have invested millions of dollars in our Lethbridge facility to ensure that the quality of our original programming and our signal distribution needs meet or exceed the expectations of Industry Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11182 We are well positioned to provide the technical requirements needed for digital transmission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11183 It should be noted that The Miracle Channel has already achieved its goal of exceeding 9 percent of its programming closed‑captioned during the broadcast day. This was accomplished three years earlier than the deadline given by the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11184 The significance of this should not be underestimated, as many of the independent producers who supply programming to the channel do not have the budget or technology to provide closed captioning. As a result, The Miracle Channel invested heavily in creating an in‑house Captioning Department to ensure that our goals are met consistently in this regard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11185 We agree with former CRTC Chairman Charles Dalfen when he, in announcing the framework for the distribution of over‑the‑air digital television signals in 2003, said:
"For the transition to digital to work, digital services need to be widely distributed so that Canadians can watch them. Giving viewers better access to digital signals will help drive the transition to digital to benefit the broadcasting system as a whole."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11186 In order for this to happen, we believe it is imperative that the Commission seek to license broadcasters willing to give viewers this access to digital signals through DTV transmission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11187 The Miracle Channel has always strived at being a pioneer in religious broadcasting in Canada, and will continue to offer this same spirit to the applications before you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11188 Despite the positives which we feel our applications have, we would be remiss not to mention the serious impact that could occur should our Applicants in this competition be approved, while The Miracle Channel is denied.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11189 We do not stand in opposition to any of the competing applications, as we believe that The Miracle Channel brand can coexist very well with any of the other applications, including CTS.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11190 However, it must be stressed that the exclusion of The Miracle Channel in these important markets would create a threat to our base of support, which already exists in these cities, and future expected growth in our organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11191 There are presently about 1,000 Miracle Channel donors in these cities who, without the advantage of the widespread distribution of our signal, could be locked out of these markets, which would cause significant harm to our donor base in Alberta, which represents our singular largest portion of donor income.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11192 In addition, a significant portion of our total income comes from the sale of airtime to broadcast ministries who also exist on donations from viewers. Should The Miracle Channel be locked out of the Calgary and Edmonton markets, it is reasonable to assume that these clients would seek other means to provide their programs to these cities, thereby leaving The Miracle Channel at a competitive disadvantage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11193 However, should The Miracle Channel coexist with any of the other Applicants, we feel confident in our ability to retain and grow our number of airtime clients.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11194 Should The Miracle Channel not gain access to these markets, the future of many of the independent religious producers who have partnered with The Miracle Channel, in the hope that access to their home market will eventually be gained, may come into question. Even worse, The Miracle Channel will stand to lose the many viewers and supporters who rely on our satellite television or streaming video on the internet to receive The Miracle Channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11195 In support of this, there are more than 650 letters, e‑mails and faxes in favour of our applications. These Albertans desire to view the only religious television channel originating in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11196 In summary, Mr. Chairman, The Miracle Channel respectfully asks the Commission to rule in favour of our applications to rebroadcast our signal through digital transmission within the Calgary and Edmonton regions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11197 The need of the service in these areas is proven, as is the viability, integrity and success of our operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11198 In our view, there is no negative impact to already existing broadcasters in these cities, and, in our opinion, many consumers are already beginning to receive digital off‑air transmissions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11199 We do not stand in opposition to any of the competing applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11200 That, Mr. Chairman, concludes the formal portion of our presentation, and we stand prepared to answer any questions you may have in regard to our applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11201 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. Dewert. I will direct my questions to you, and you may choose to answer them directly or ask one of your colleagues to reply.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11202 Since it is not an application for a new station, but for the rebroadcast of an existing station in Lethbridge, I will have very few questions regarding programming, except to get a better understanding of what you are currently doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11203 I will start with your programming chart, the one you filed with your applications. This is only for me to understand your programming better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11204 I notice that your programming grid mentions that you have programming coming from various foreign sources. Mainly, you name the U.S., Israel, Europe and Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11205 What type of programs are they? Could you describe them in a nutshell for our benefit?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11206 DR. DEWERT: The U.S.A. programs are, for the most part, broadcast ministries that purchase the airtime for those time slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11207 With others, they may be affiliations that we have ‑‑ programs originating from other locations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11208 The one in Israel, specifically ‑‑ Israel Vision ‑‑ is actually a Canadian who lives in Israel and produces the program. That is the reason we have connected with that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11209 With respect to specific answers on programs, our VP of Corporate Affairs handles the program schedule, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Even including the Israel program, which, as you say, is produced by a Canadian living in Israel, I have to say that you have a very interesting website. I've been perusing and watching some of your programs and I happened to watch your Israel program at least once. I have to agree that it is quite a documentary. It is not preaching. It is some kind of a documentary, three or four documentary segments on various news or significant social events or societal issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11211 I have to agree that this program is very well produced. But I understand that it is financed through donations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11212 MR. DEWERT: Are you specifically referring to "Israel Vision" as the program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11213 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure if it was "Israel Vision". I know it was programming coming from Israel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11214 MR. DEWERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11215 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the documentary form. At the tail end of the program, there was some solicitation for financial support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11216 MR. DEWERT: Then I would assume that to be the program "Israel Vision". And the hosts of that, Dr. Jay and Meridel Rawlings, they do have an organization that they use to raise funds for that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11217 We provide airtime for them. They do not purchase airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11218 THE CHAIRPERSON: You provide the airtime for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11219 Any other similar programming that you provide airtime on a free basis?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11220 MR. DEWERT: Yes, we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11221 I'm going to give this to Gord Klassen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11222 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, we have a number of programs that we supply free airtime to, specifically to some of the aboriginal programmings on Saturday afternoon, such as "Spirit Alive" and "Tribal Trails".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11223 Also from time to time we have specials that are sent to us where they request if we can air it at no charge to them. And depending if it fits our programming needs, from time to time we do air those as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11224 Any other specific ones right now, I can't think of right off the top.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11225 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't have specific titles. I am asking general questions to have a better understanding of what you are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11226 All these programs do solicit donations. Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11227 MR. DEWERT: Most of the programs on our station would probably be donor funded in one form or another. Some are not. For example, "First Century Foundations" is a program that is Canadian produced but originates in Israel and visits the various sites of interest to Christians in Israel. They receive sponsorship from various organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other similar programs or is it the sole one? That's the one I saw. The one you just described is the one that I saw on your website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11229 MR. DEWERT: There may be another. I can't think of one right now, but I am sure there are some others that function that way that are more of a documentary and are funded through a sponsorship of some kind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11230 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice in your program grid that you are using some codes, and one of them is local audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11231 Do you mean that it is a program that is produced before an audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11232 MR. DEWERT: Which program specifically?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Say "LifeLine".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11234 MR. DEWERT: Yes. My wife and I cohost "LifeLine" and it is taped live‑to‑tape in our studios. There is a small studio audience, sometimes a little larger depending on who the guest is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Another one is "Victory Church".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11236 MR. DEWERT: That is a brokered airtime. Victory Church in Lethbridge purchases the airtime for that program on our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11237 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the program is produced in a church where there is attendance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11238 MR. DEWERT: Yes, that is correct. It is more or less a church service type program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11239 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have another code, which is priority program. And "LifeLine" again is a priority program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11240 What do you mean by priority program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11241 MR. KLASSEN: The "LifeLine" program, we also use that program to bring in other denominations, other points of views from other denominations, local and across Canada and North America. We use that as part of our balanced programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11242 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that all the programs on your programming grid that are identified as priority programs are what you will be calling balanced programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11243 MR. KLASSEN: Specifically the balanced programming that we indicate are the programs "LifeLine", "in sight" and "Behind the Scenes".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11244 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see here "Revival Harvest" with a "P" beside it. I have another one which I see, "Fire of God" and a few others: "Eternally Yours", "Songs of Living", "Lessons for Leaders", ".wavFile".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11245 All these programs are identified as being priority programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11246 MR. KLASSEN: Those programs then would be all Canadian programming, part of our 60 percent Canadian programming. Some of those programs are from other provinces.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, I can see that you have for Canadian programming "House of David", which doesn't have either an "L" or a "T" beside it. That means it is not produced before a live audience but it is not priority either, but is Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11248 MR. KLASSEN: That's right. "House of David" is Canadian and it is produced by the producer in his studio but not in front of a live audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11249 Some of the other ones, of course, are produced in a church service situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11250 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the "P" that I see beside numerous titles, it is something that I'm not really capable to decode because it has different meanings, depending what the title is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11251 Am I right to say that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11252 MR. KLASSEN: Yes. The coding is something that is determined with our Traffic Department, together with the Commission. To speak to the specific issues of why some are quoted as being priority and others not, that would be a question we would have to defer to our Traffic Department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11253 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you, for the benefit of the Commission, provide us with a more detailed explanation? And could we expect to have it by some time tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11254 MR. KLASSEN: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously every time I see "CC" ‑‑ and most of your programs I will see "CC" ‑‑ that means it is closed captioned. Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11256 MR. KLASSEN: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11257 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I would say that except for "Spirit Life", which is on Saturday at 3:00 p.m., that one is not closed captioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11258 Any reason why that program is not closed captioned?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11259 MR. KLASSEN: It does not come to us closed captioned. It certainly can be. We have endeavoured to try and get programs closed captioned that we get within the time limits to be able to closed caption it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11260 I believe that is one of the programs that we usually get in perhaps only a day prior to airing, so we don't have the time to closed caption it. But we still are over our 90 percent requirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your programming grid goes from 6:00 a.m. to midnight. I have seen on your website that you were broadcasting some programming in the French language, but there is none during the day time or in the broadcast day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11262 According to your website you have French programming. When is it broadcast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11263 MR. KLASSEN: We have had a number of French language ministries contact us wishing to air their program on our channel, specifically "Reveil" in Levy. We have aired them early Sunday morning so that it falls of course in the more eastern parts of the country, in Quebec in particular, at a suitable time of the day on a Sunday morning without getting in the way too much of our language content or English language content during the rest of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11264 THE CHAIRPERSON: I tried one of those that were giving us an hyperlink and ended up in French. So it is not a Canadian program. It is a foreign program coming from France?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11265 MR. KLASSEN: No. These are Canadian programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11266 THE CHAIRPERSON: You had a hyperlink. I did a thorough research on your site and I ended up on a French website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11267 MR. KLASSEN: That could well be. We also have a vignette that we play throughout the day, called "Seeds of Faith". That particular gentleman that does that program has various links to other French language ministries, and I believe one of those could possibly be in France. But he is Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11268 THE CHAIRPERSON: The programs that you mentioned with a local audience, they are not all produced in Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11269 MR. KLASSEN: I can speak to the programs that are produced in Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11270 Specifically, they are the "LifeLine" program, "in sight", "Behind the Scenes", "Lessons for Leaders", "P.U.'s Place", ".wavFile", "Revival in the Land", "Possessing the Land", "Power of Partnership", "The Great Harvest", "Fresh Oil", "Extreme New Years", "New Years", "Sea to Sea" and "The Edge".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11271 These are all produced in our Lethbridge studios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you produce anywhere else in Alberta? Do you have remote facilities?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11273 MR. KLASSEN: We do not have remote facilities at this time. We do send camera crews out to all areas of Alberta and other provinces from time to time to bring back coverage for segments and documentaries and programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11274 MR. DEWERT: If I may add to that, we do special events or conferences in Ottawa and we have done them in other cities, as well as Lethbridge, of course. And when we do, we contract television services and record them there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11275 They are recorded live‑to‑tape but not broadcast live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11276 THE CHAIRPERSON: What portion of your programming is live versus pretaped?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11277 MR. KLASSEN: On a regular basis we would have one hour live each day, Monday through Thursday. That would be our live phone‑in program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11278 Beyond that, our live programming would be our fund raising programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11279 THE CHAIRPERSON: And those are occurring twice a year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11280 MR. KLASSEN: Those are currently once per quarter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Once per quarter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11282 And those are the programs which have raised some concerns from the part of your viewers, and they have reached the Commission and brought us in an exchange of correspondence, including one that was sent to you no later than late last week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11283 I suggest that you have already received that letter sent from staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11284 I wonder at this stage if you have any further comments to make regarding that specific letter from CRTC staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11285 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, I do. The Miracle Channel has operated for more than 11 years as a non‑profit charity in good standing with a number of regulatory bodies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11286 For the record, we are audited annually by KPMG and have been audited by the Charities Division of Revenue Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11287 We follow the Guidelines of the Religious Broadcast Policy, the Charities Act, the Guidelines on Fund Raising as given by the Canadian Council of Christian Charities and our own internal fund raising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11288 We note that we are responsible for the airing of fund raising appeals on the channel and to ensure that our programmers and guests and are informed and agree with the rules and regulations regarding on‑air fund raising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11289 Having said this, we have noted in particular that there has been particularly one viewer who frequently challenges our right to fund raise. And it was as a result of one such complaint a number of years ago Commission staff concluded that a few of the statements made by one of our guests on the channel were not in line with the religious broadcast policy on fund raising. So Commission staff requested us to submit an internal fund raising policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11290 We did this immediately, incorporating in our revision the suggestions made by Nick Ketchum, CRTC's Senior Policy Analyst, and recently we have received a response from Mr. Ketchum stating that Commission staff are satisfied that our internal fund raising policy is an effective tool to ensure compliance with the provisions regarding solicitation of funds as set out in the Religious Broadcasting Policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since you developed the policy, that means that you are comfortable with the policy that you have developed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11292 If the Commission were to make it a condition of licence, what would be your comment, since it is your policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11293 MR. DEWERT: It is our policy. It did go through a revision process with Commission staff. We would have no difficulty accepting that as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11294 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are taking your reply under advisement. Since you will not be originating local programming in Calgary and Edmonton and it is not the renewal of your Lethbridge station, we will have to discuss with our legal people if we can make it a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11295 We appreciate your statement at this stage. We will need to do some further investigation on our part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11296 If the Commission were to grant you the licence in Calgary and Edmonton, will it have any impact on your current programming grid in Lethbridge in order to reflect the new community that you will be serving?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11297 MR. DEWERT: We probably already reflect a great deal of the communities of Calgary and Edmonton, largely because the size of Lethbridge in southern Alberta itself is somewhat limiting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11298 To fulfil a full 24‑hour programming day and to access guests for a daily one‑hour program, we have to reach beyond our local area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11299 Having said that, I would expect that that would only increase; that we would access more guests, more events. We already presently send a camera crew with a mobile into these cities to cover events, and some of these events are some of the biggest Christian events held in our nation. So they are worthy of reporting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11300 So I would assume that we would only do more of this in the days ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11301 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you do it in Calgary, and you gave us a list of titles in your oral presentation of programming that while originating in Lethbridge are also using footage coming from Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11302 The very fact that you are not distributed by Shaw is surely an impairment for you to do the same in Edmonton. I notice that you only had one title of programming that was reflecting more Edmonton than anywhere else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11303 If you were to be granted a licence for say Edmonton, have you considered doing more reflection programming on the Edmonton community?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11304 MR. DEWERT: Since our licence in 1996, we actively pursued programmers from Calgary‑Edmonton ‑‑ for that matter, anywhere. We literally were desperate for programmers, period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11305 There was no industry when we started to speak of, other than my dear friend David Mains who really began Christian television programming in our nation. Literally, we feel we stand on his shoulders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11306 We have found it very hard to access programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11307 The greatest impairment that we found is that people said we don't see your channel here in Calgary, we don't see your channel here in Edmonton. It has been difficult for us to acquire programmers from these locations, or any other location for that matter, because of that concern.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11308 I would expect that we will be able to secure more programs from these two cities specifically, largely because the programmer in those cities wants to reach the viewers in their city. Now they would be able to if we were licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11309 THE CHAIRPERSON: And even if you don't have production facilities in those two cities? Through cable and satellite, you said it yourself, you are covering at least Calgary fairly extensively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11310 Maybe there is a local population that is not subscribing to any distribution undertakings and they could be significant because in all urban areas of this country it is Commission knowledge that there are about 10 to 15 percent of the local population that is not subscribing to any BDUs. Other than that, 85 percent of the Calgary viewers could watch your station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11311 You just said that your programmers are saying that they have less interest in doing programming because their program is not available in these markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11312 Do you think that only having an off‑air rebroad in, start first with Calgary, will be sufficient to prompt those independent producers to propose more programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11313 MR. DEWERT: I definitely believe that would be the case. Of course, with over‑the‑air broadcast and cable carriage that comes with that over‑the‑air digital broadcast, we would then have a great many more potential viewers in those cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11314 For many programmers that is their core issue. They want to reach their city, especially if it is a local church‑based program. Their interest is to reach their immediate market outside their doorstep, which is their city in Edmonton or Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11315 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure that you have looked at Shaw's current digital distribution line‑up and you have an idea of how many subscribers they have in the digital world before filing your application and before replying to the request that Shaw made in their intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11316 How many viewers do you expect to get say from Calgary and from Edmonton in a digital world, to start with. Even if those extended markets have around each 1.4 million viewers, you will have some limitation only by the very fact that you will be on digital, at least to start with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11317 MR. DEWERT: Our understanding is that the Broadcast Distribution Regulations require digital over‑the‑air to also be carried on cable, on the basic band of cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11318 If it were to be just on digital, that we understand is the growing market. There is a transition that viewers on analog cable are moving over to digital. And right at this moment we have entered the southern Ontario area through an affiliation with Rogers digital cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11319 While it takes a little longer to develop an audience on the digital tier, we are seeing response from that. Typically, it takes us two to three years to see a completion of that, where people learn where you are and learn to watch your program there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11320 THE CHAIRPERSON: You feel sufficiently comfortable that you will get the same out of Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11321 MR. DEWERT: If we were to be distributed on the basic analog cable, that process would happen very quickly. On digital, it would also happen. It just takes longer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11322 We find that our viewer ‑‑ it has been described as a niche audience ‑‑ finds us. If we do sufficient promotion and communication with churches and other organizations, we eventually do find that viewers will find us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11323 One case in point is that many of these viewers watch us on our website through the streaming video that we provide, although it is a very limited broadcast because of the limitations of the Internet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you of the view that the Calgary, Edmonton and Lethbridge community are communities that are quite alike in terms of religious programming? Obviously, you have there two major urban centres versus a more rural area where you are based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11325 Are the viewers that are really interested in religious programming culturally very similar in wherever they live throughout Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11326 MR. KLASSEN: If we go by religious adherence, I would have to say yes, it is quite common throughout the province of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11327 Specifically those that describe themselves of being any religious affiliation, the numbers are approximately, according to Stats Canada, 75 percent in Lethbridge and anywhere from 66 to 68 percent in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11328 So there is a large portion that consider themselves to be of religious affiliation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11329 MR. DEWERT: If I can add to Gord's response, if we go by the responses and being a donor run ministry, I mean donor responses, then we find the highest area of response ‑‑ one of the highest areas, I should say ‑‑ for The Miracle Channel is the Edmonton and area if we are going by that factor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11330 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the level of response is higher in Edmonton than it will be in Lethbridge where you are based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11331 There are more people living in Edmonton than in Lethbridge, but on a per capita basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11332 MR. KLASSEN: No. I would think proportionately , if you prorate that it would probably be higher in our immediate broadcast areas. Our visibility is quite strong, having been there for 11 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11333 I would definitely say that Edmonton is a very close ‑‑ or I should say the Edmonton and area. We don't actually have a lot of penetration into Edmonton. So it is very close.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11334 We have always had a very strong demand from all across Alberta. I believe over 30 percent of our donor income comes from Alberta itself, our largest singular province of support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11335 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would suspect that it is quite normal because you are Alberta based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11336 MR. DEWERT: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11337 THE CHAIRPERSON: I noticed in going onto your website, and you alluded to it in your oral presentation, that your service is available not only in Canada but by satellite it's available in numerous locations in the U.S. and in the Pacific Islands.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11338 Are you getting any results from these locations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11339 MR. DEWERT: We have put our programming on in various amounts in satellite feeds all over the world. Some of the most encouraging results and responses to us have come from Europe and Africa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11340 I have two letters actually from European Parliament members who have said that of the 34 or 35 religious stations available on satellite, on the Hot Bird satellite over Europe, they felt that The Miracle Channel as a Canadian identity was the most popular and the most appealing to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11341 We found that as well from the letters of response.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11342 The other area that a lot of our original programming is carried in is in Africa, and we get a great deal of response from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11343 But probably before that we do have satellite distribution for the USA, and we also place our anchor program, which is called "LifeLine", which my wife and I host, we place that on other networks as well ‑‑ CTS is one example ‑‑ and purchasing air time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11344 We find our responses any time that we have done that as very positive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11345 There is a very strong demand for Canadian Christian programming in the world. It is seen very favourably. In response to that, we feel that sometime in the future we will be able to do an international version of The Miracle Channel that will really embody an international appeal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11346 One of the areas that we would really like to focus more of our time and energy on in that would be francophone programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Coming out of Lethbridge?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11348 MR. DEWERT: That is unique, isn't it. I was surprised at how many francophones there are in Lethbridge when I saw the actual statistics. I think it was somewhere around 7,000 people. I was quite surprised at the number of French speaking people in that area, because the stereotype is that it is not there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11349 We have a number of French speaking staff that work at The Miracle Channel, and we get a great deal of very positive response from Quebec.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11350 We would expect that is through our satellite, Bell ExpressVu and Star Choice. They are very positive and they are very thankful for any amount of French speaking programming that we do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11351 I only see that we will do a lot more of that in the future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11352 Of course, being a donor run ministry, you have to be conscious of how much time you allot to the various areas of various languages. It is something that we will be doing more of but again within a certain amount of limits.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11353 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to your Regulatory Review Committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11354 But before going there, I notice in watching your service that in your promos you were identifying yourself as a multi‑religious channel rather than a multi‑faith channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11355 Could you explain to me the difference that you are making between the two?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11356 MR. KLASSEN: I don't know exactly what the terms were when that was written, but as far as being multi‑religious, I guess there are many different types of religious thought in all forms of Christianity and other non‑Christian faiths as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11357 Of course, we do seek to reflect those many views in our programming and including in our balance programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11358 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have set up a Regulatory Review Committee. Could you describe for us the role and responsibilities of that committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11359 MR. DEWERT: Gord Klassen, our V.P. of Corporate, does deal directly with the Regulatory Review Committee. He attends all the meetings and is a part of that, so I will let him answer that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11360 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, we have a six member committee, a Regulatory Review Committee. They are a volunteer committee and they meet together with the station management usually about once a month throughout the broadcast year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11361 Their duties, of course, are to ensure that we are living up to our conditions of licence in terms of Canadian content, in terms of closed captioning percentages, in terms of balance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11362 They also have the opportunity to review any programs that they wish, and they have an opportunity as well to see any complaints or concerns that come to the station and our responses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11363 We have been very pleased with how proactive they have been in expressing their thoughts and views to station management, and we have incorporated many of their suggestions in our programming. And it has been quite successful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11364 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Have they been involved in developing the fund raising policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11365 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, they have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11366 THE CHAIRPERSON: You said that it is made up of six people. I'm not looking for names, but what kind of people are they and what is their background?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11367 MR. KLASSEN: They are varied. We have one who is an aboriginal leader from Piikani Nation on the Blood Tribe. We have another one who is a chartered psychologist. We have another one who is a city alderman in the City of Lethbridge. We have another one from an Anglican church background. In the past we have had other ones from other church backgrounds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11368 As well, we have a number of staff members ‑‑ I believe two staff members ‑‑ that also sit as volunteers on the committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11369 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have four external people and two ‑‑ including yourself, I understood from Dr. Dewert ‑‑ that are part of that committee.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11370 MR. KLASSEN: I'm not a part of the committee, but I am the station representative at the table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11371 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the table. So you are the one who is making the consultation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11372 MR. KLASSEN: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11373 MR. DEWERT: I'm not part of that committee either.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11374 THE CHAIRPERSON: The staff members, they are not necessarily in the management?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11375 MR. KLASSEN: No. One of them works in the IT Department and the another one works in the Traffic Department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11376 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are representative of the community that you are trying to serve?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11377 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, and they come from other church groups in the City of Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11378 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is your group made up of various beliefs or is it all Christians or you have people, Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist, or whatever?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11379 MR. KLASSEN: It is mostly made up of non‑denominational Christians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11380 Of course, as you know, in Lethbridge it is probably less than 2 percent of our population that adhere to any other type of faith. We are certainly always looking for new members to replace other members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11381 That is something that basically our Regulatory Review Committee themselves take a part in, in nominating and approving any new members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11382 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would be the impact on that regulatory committee if we were to grant you the authority to expand in Calgary and Edmonton? Will you look at enlarging your committee or, as time goes by, bring people from one or the two new locations to your committee so that you have a better reflection of what is going on in Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11383 MR. KLASSEN: We would certainly not be opposed to that. I think that committee members, no matter where they come from, would be concerned with making sure that we live up to our conditions of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11384 Certainly our committee does that now, and I'm sure they would welcome extra representation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11385 THE CHAIRPERSON: I asked Crossroads that question earlier: If the Commission were to authorize both of you to serve the communities of Calgary and Edmonton, could you provide us with your comments on what would be the impact on your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11386 MR. DEWERT: First of all, I would like to say that we have had a long history, over 20 years, of cooperating with Crossroads, and we also exist in certain areas, co‑exist if you will, with them. We don't find there is any conflict.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11387 If we were to both exist in both of these markets, Edmonton and Calgary, we feel that The Miracle Channel can hold its own.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11388 I think that the detriment would be if we are locked out. And that by the airtime clients would be viewed as a negative on terms of purchasing airtime on The Miracle Channel, because we can't provide all the markets that another broadcaster could. That would be harmful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11389 But as far as standing next to them, we find that we develop an audience that likes The Miracle Channel and they can also like the Crossroads style, because it is a family‑friendly type of station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11390 It has different kinds of programming than The Miracle Channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11391 So I would like to view ourselves as complementary, if anything, and working well together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11392 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will that have an impact on your programming grid? You are carrying "100 Huntley Street" and they are carrying "LifeLine", and there are probably other program titles that are either yours or theirs that one or the other is broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11393 MR. DEWERT: Well, you know, "LifeLine" and "100 Huntley Street" are the most popular programs in Canada. So of course we have to carry both of those ‑‑ at least we like to think that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11394 There are some overlaps but they also air at different times during the day. One of the strengths of The Miracle Channel is that we have been able to provide these popular type Christian programs in prime time slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11395 This is one of the premises that really originally I approached the CRTC with in a licence application: that Christian broadcasters like myself, I had a half‑hour weekly program and I couldn't find airtime except in the most marginal time slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11396 So one of the things that we try to do is if we have duplications of programs is that we place them at different times, if that is possible. And in most cases it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11397 With "100 Huntley Street", they are placed on The Miracle Channel at 6:00 p.m. They have been since our very inception for the past 11 years. They wanted that slot because they cannot find it anywhere else, and now they have it on The Miracle Channel and we are happy to have them there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11398 We also repeat their program in the morning at 8:30 a.m. Mountain time, and that is because it is a popular morning program as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11399 I also want to say that we do really preference Canadian programming. In all of our program broadcasts, I believe that message comes through. We are very pro Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11400 My personal view is that we have had to start from behind, if you will, because American ministries have had a great deal of time to develop their support base in Canada and I believe huge amounts of money still go to American ministries and a small fraction of that is apportioned to the Canadian ministries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11401 I'm one that wants to change that a little bit in our nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11402 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whatever donation that goes to the America ministries, are you getting something back or are your revenues only through selling airtime?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11403 MR. KLASSEN: Our revenue from any ministry that purchases airtime is strictly that. It is the brokered airtime fee that they pay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11404 THE CHAIRPERSON: But do you have other type of programming that is not necessarily brokers where you have a sharing arrangement?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11405 MR. DEWERT: I don't believe there is any program that we carry that there is any sharing arrangement of donations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11406 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are your applications severable if we granted you only Edmonton and not Calgary or the other way around?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11407 MR. DEWERT: Yes, absolutely. We exist as it is not in those markets. Obviously, it is I think again preferential to be available in both cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11408 Those cities are very similar and very close in many ways, so obviously for obvious reasons we would like to be in both. But yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11409 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the Commission was only to grant you say Edmonton, what will be the impact on your business plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11410 MR. DEWERT: Again, I can only comment to say that it would be positive because we are not presently distributed there. It will only increase our ability to reach more viewers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11411 We do get a high volume of requests from the Edmonton and area already.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11412 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we were to grant you only Calgary, what kind of impact will it be on your business plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11413 MR. DEWERT: Again, that will only be a positive as far as our business plan is concerned. Again because our business model is based on the greater number of viewers, that ultimately translates into a greater number of supporters. So we could only see positive benefit in The Miracle Channel as a result.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11414 It would be somewhat limiting to not be able to provide airtime sales or airtime clients with visibility in both of those locations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11415 Calgary, I might add, though, is very close to Lethbridge. They are sister markets really.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11416 MR. KLASSEN: If I can add to that, we are currently on cable systems outside of Calgary and Edmonton, particularly cable systems surrounding Edmonton and Calgary. So if we were to get licensed in one city and not another, I'm sure that it would be more of a problem for our potential viewers because they would know that it was available in other cities around them and that they would be shut out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11417 So I imagine that a greater question would be how would it affect our potential viewers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11418 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make sure.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 11419 THE CHAIRPERSON: There are many pages but you have answered them very quickly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11420 MR. DEWERT: It is the Alberta succinctness.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11421 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those were my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11422 I know that my colleague Commissioner Cram will ask you some questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11423 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11424 Did I understand you correctly, Mr. Dewert, that you virtually have all of Alberta covered except for Red Deer, Edmonton and Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11425 MR. DEWERT: We have all of Alberta covered with the exception of those three cities that I mentioned and other cities serviced by Shaw outside of our immediate broadcast area, which is Lethbridge, Crowsnest Pass and Medicine Hat at Brooks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11426 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So then Fort McMurray you don't have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11427 MR. DEWERT: We don't have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11428 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I guess my question was, when the Vice‑Chair was asking if they were severable, why didn't you apply for Red Deer? Why didn't you apply for the three, go for a three‑in‑one instead of a two‑in‑one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11429 MR. DEWERT: Am I to understand a transmitter in Red Deer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11430 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11431 MR. DEWERT: I guess we responded to the call for applications for Calgary and Edmonton would be the answer to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11432 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11433 I take it, Mr. Klassen, you were saying ‑‑ and I couldn't write it down fast enough ‑‑ that you were following the guidelines on fund raising from a church; that there are guidelines by a group of churches on fund raising?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11434 MR. KLASSEN: We have a number of organizations that we work with when I was mentioning regulatory bodies. One of those that we work with is the Canadian Council for Christian Charities. They have a set of fund raising guidelines as well, and we are associates with them and seeking to ensure that we can follow their guidelines, which are in keeping with our internal fund raising and in keeping with the spirit of the Religious Broadcasting Policy as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11435 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you mean to tell me that you were following those guidelines at the time of the previous complaints when we had problems with them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11436 MR. KLASSEN: Right now we are in the process of wishing to become members of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities. We have started following those guidelines, together with the revision on our internal fund raising policy when this came up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11437 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were not either a member nor an associate of this group of church charities at the time of the complaints that were laid against you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11438 MR. KLASSEN: We were not a member.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11439 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were not following the guidelines then. It was since the complaints started that you started looking into this issue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11440 Do I hear you correctly now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11441 MR. KLASSEN: Yes, we have been taking very measured steps from the complaint to ensure not only compliance to the Religious Broadcast Policy but also to ensure that it lines up with other regulatory bodies that we wish to become members of in the future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11442 This was the opportune time to dovetail all those together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11443 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are now an associate but you wish to become a member.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11444 How do you do that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11445 MR. KLASSEN: It is an application process and perhaps Mr. Prestage can speak more to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11446 MR. PRESTAGE: Yes. The four C's, Canadian Council of Christian Charities, has a very extensive review process. We have been in process for some time now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11447 It kind of got sidelined for a little while because they wanted to see what was going to come with the complaints that were before us. We wanted to make sure that we were in compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11448 We have accepted as a condition of becoming a member of that association that we adhere to their financial accountability, as well as to their ethics and guidelines as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11449 It is an independent organization. It is a Council of Christian Charities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11450 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So would you be prepared to advise the Commission when you have been accepted as a member?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11451 MR. PRESTAGE: Absolutely. That is something that we are working on even at this time. I think two weeks ago I sent more documents that they were asking for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11452 Like I said, it is a process and they review all the minutes of all of your meetings. They review your board of directors. They thoroughly review your whole organization from top to bottom to make sure that it complies with their ethics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11453 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11454 I have one question for counsel and I couldn't ask.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11455 The projections in the applications at Section 2, are they confidential?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11456 MR. McCALLUM: Generally, projections are on the public record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11457 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11458 I'm looking at your projections for approval, refusal and cumulatively speaking, it looks to me if there were approval in both Calgary and Edmonton, you would have an increase in revenues of $7.5 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11459 But in both scenarios you have left the programming expenses, or the operating expenses so therefore I'm assuming the programming expenses, as exactly the same.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11460 So you don't really plan to enhance your programming should you have this coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11461 MR. PRESTAGE: Actually, with all due respect, if you look at administration in general as a line item ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11462 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have reduced ones where I just have total expenses, operating expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11463 MR. PRESTAGE: Okay. May I address that particular issue?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11464 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11465 MR. PRESTAGE: Currently, 66 percent of that line is money that we spend internally on producing programs. Of course, that line has an inflationary factor, as well as increases in staff, increases in our ability to produce.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11466 At the end of our seven‑year period, we will have spent $12,313,514 that is just related to our programming expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11467 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Increased?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11468 MR. PRESTAGE: No, that is our total programming expense. It does increase every year because we are doing more and because there are more costs associated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11469 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What I am saying is that, are your program expenses the same in status quo and approval?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11470 MR. PRESTAGE: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11471 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Scenarios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11472 MR. PRESTAGE: Yes, they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11473 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In other words, you are not going to enhance your programming even though you are going to be getting $7.5 million more in revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11474 MR. PRESTAGE: I wouldn't say that is exactly true. We will be spending a lot of that money on capital projects as well for Calgary and Edmonton. There is half million dollars there that needs to be spent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11475 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is your plant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11476 MR. PRESTAGE: Yes, that is the plants in both in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11477 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But programming you are not going to change. Even though you spend a million on plant, that is $6.5 million extra in your pocket and you are not going to enhance the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11478 MR. PRESTAGE: Well if you notice also, before the enhancement of Calgary and Edmonton, we have some losses down the pipe. We predict that we would have losses for our existing operation in years 6 and 7 as they pertain right now. So some of that money has to go cover those losses, although they are small losses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11479 We continually improve what we are doing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11480 Again, these are projections on what we are looking at what revenues would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11481 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's a big pot of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11482 MR. DEWERT: I want to clarify that our expenditures on programming have always increased, as our revenues have increased and our budget correspondingly increases.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11483 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then why didn't you show that in your projections and the application in Section 2.1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11484 I'm looking at you and saying $7.5 million more. What are you giving back to the system? Does this just go into your jeans?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11485 I mean, you are a charity. Where does the money go?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11486 MR. DEWERT: So it can't go into the jeans. It has to be reinvested in the overall operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11487 And by its nature as a non‑profit charity, the monies do go back into our operation, so they will obviously then be reflected in our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11488 And yes, there would be more expenditure on programming. We have ideas to do that. Finances today are the limitation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11489 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So is there some formula that you have, that all of the profit minus the 10 percent would go into increased programming in each and every year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11490 MR. DEWERT: What Mr. Prestage is saying is that there is a history of spending over our licence period to the present. A percentage of our finances, income, goes into programming. That is what makes our ministry unique and that is what makes it grow. And that trend will continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11491 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What is the percentage? Let's talk PBIT and let's say: What percentage of your operating profit is put into programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11492 MR. DEWERT: I am sure that Kent could give you that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11493 MR. PRESTAGE: Currently, again, I go back to the administration in general line: 66 percent of that line item ‑‑ I'm sorry you don't have the line item ‑‑ is production and that is on an increasing basis as we move forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11494 So 66 percent of that particular line item is production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11495 Like I said, in the seven‑year period here we are spending $12 million on programming. It is actually $12.3 million on programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11496 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But your projections still shows you having $7.5 million in excess revenue above expenses. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11497 That is what that section says, 2.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11498 MR. DEWERT: If I may answer also, the money does not go into the jeans only. One of the things that we do is we purchase distribution, even in Canada, on cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11499 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wouldn't that be in your operating expenses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11500 MR. DEWERT: Pardon?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11501 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wouldn't that be already in your operating expenses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11502 MR. DEWERT: Yes, but you are asking what we would do with the profit. We would generally invest it either in programming and/or distribution of our signal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11503 MR. PRESTAGE: There is no way of predicting that because we don't know what the contracts in the future are going to cost us. We have been pleasantly surprised on rare occasions and sometimes very unpleasantly surprised on what it costs to get greater coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11504 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Maybe what you could do is provide us with new financial projections for refusal and acceptance scenarios for Section 2.1 of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11505 MR. PRESTAGE: Can do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11506 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Showing us the programming expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11507 Could you file that tomorrow?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11508 MR. PRESTAGE: Can do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11509 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that we have some reassurance that we are not ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11510 MR. PRESTAGE: Do you want them with Calgary and Edmonton both accepted? Do you want them separately?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11511 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Separately. So it's the four.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11512 THE CHAIRPERSON: As many scenarios as you can do. Both accepted and only Calgary and only Edmonton and obviously totally denied.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11513 That one, I think we have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11514 MR. PRESTAGE: If I understand the Commissioner, what you want to know is how we are going to spend the extra money instead of just showing it as a profit basically.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11515 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11516 MR. PRESTAGE: You are saying show me how you are going to spend it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11517 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I mean, what it looks like here ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11518 MR. PRESTAGE: It is all proposed money right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11519 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I know. You have made projections about your revenues but your projections about your expenses are that they will be the status quo. So you haven't given me any reassurance that that is going to go into programming for the people of Alberta, or you may want to donate it, give every child in Africa a goat, in which case then I'm going to say to myself: What are you giving back to the broadcasting community and the system?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11520 MR. PRESTAGE: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11521 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Not that there is anything wrong with giving every child in Africa a goat. That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11522 MR. DEWERT: We will give you those numbers. I have to say that we have never had that problem where we have had huge amounts of money sitting in the bank and we are not spending it on programming. This history is that that is what we have done; we have improved the programming of the station. That is our goal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11523 So we have no difficulty doing that. We will provide that for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11524 COMMISSIONER CRAM: As a general rule, how much independent production do you have, money‑wise, percentage?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11525 MR. PRESTAGE: Currently on production, we receive money from people that we produce programs for, and currently we are in that about $100,000 a year plus is what people pay us to do productions for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11526 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What do you pay independent producers to produce for you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11527 MR. PRESTAGE: We don't pay anyone to produce for us. We produce all of our own.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11528 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Maybe you could consider that part of the $6.5 million could go to other parties in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11529 MR. KLASSEN: Just to clarify that, yes, we would absolutely consider that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11530 Some of the independent Alberta productions that we work with now include "Times of Refreshing" in Calgary, "Off the Wall" in Edmonton, "Victory Presents" in Lethbridge, "The Overcomers" from Edmonton, "...for Life" from Calgary, "Word of Faith" from the Red Deer area, "Passionate Women" from Lethbridge, "Maralee Dawn and Friends" from Lethbridge, "Marketplace Matters" in Lethbridge and "On the Edge" from Taber.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11531 All of these programs we either subsidize what they are doing by helping them with their production at a much subsidized cost or by allowing them reduced airtime fees or airing their programming at no charge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11532 That is part of the way that we give back to these independent Alberta productions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11533 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11534 I want to go, Mr. Dewert, to your talk today at paragraph 23 when you talk about a denial scenario. It is the last sentence of paragraph 23:
"There are presently about 1,000 Miracle Channel donors in these cities without the advantage of widespread distribution to our signal. To be locked out of these markets would cause significant harm to our donor base."
LISTNUM 1 \l 11535 You already have these donors. So you wouldn't necessarily lose them, would you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11536 MR. DEWERT: These donors are supporting the station in the belief that we will one day secure distribution either through cable or other means into those cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11537 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But they obviously have access to your programming already.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11538 MR. DEWERT: Actually, many of them don't. They watch on the Internet and some of them may be DTH. I can't tell you exactly what they are watching because they are on our donor base, but we can find from our donor base that they are in those cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11539 Knowing them personally, many of them that come to our conferences or events, that is what they tell us: that they are doing this in the belief that they can receive our signal in their city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11540 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The second one is the broadcast ministries. You say should you be locked out, it is reasonable to assume that they would seek other means to provide their programs to these cities, leaving you at a competitive disadvantage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11541 But you also have the competitive advantage of covering the rest of Alberta minus Shaw territory, whereas somebody, say Crossroads, they wouldn't be getting the rest of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11542 MR. DEWERT: The population of Alberta, as you know, is two‑thirds in Edmonton and Calgary and one‑third in a rural population. In that rural population we don't have complete coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11543 We have, I think, admirable penetration but not complete coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11544 I think also the refusal of our entry into Calgary and Edmonton would be seen or perceived maybe my supporters as a sign that we are not the one to support, perhaps, and maybe we are not the one that they should invest in with their donation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11545 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11546 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11547 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11548 Commissioner Cram has asked you to provide us with revised financials, and also she did ask you to consider having some money going towards independent producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11549 I have to say that surely that will not forbid you to do some numbers, but we will take them under advisement. Obviously it is an improvement over the application as filed and it will be fairer for the other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11550 You can choose not to make any statement; or if you do, we will only receive them under advisement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11551 Before going to legal counsel, are you a member of the Canadian Broadcasting Standards Council?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11552 MR. KLASSEN: No, we are not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11553 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't. Okay, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11554 We will go to legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11555 MR. McCALLUM: Just one thing. As a registered charity, is there a rule under Revenue Canada rules that you have to spend a certain amount of donation income each year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11556 MR. PRESTAGE: Yes, very clearly. There is called a disbursement quota. We have to spend 80 percent of all of our revenue that is brought in for donation purposes on our charitable purpose, which in our case is broadcasting religious programming in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11557 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11558 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11559 Mr. Dewert, I am giving you two minutes to shine, to tell us why we should grant you the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11560 MR. DEWERT: If I may for a moment beat my own drum then, I am very proud of what The Miracle Channel has accomplished, originating from a very small marginal market in the early days of our broadcast, we really lived barely getting by, subsistence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11561 We have been able to build up, I believe, an admirable broadcast industry among Canadian Christian programmers. We have advanced Canadian Christian television to the extent that we are exporting it. As far as I know, we are the only fully complete channel being exported out of our borders into other parts of the world, which only continues to this day, largely fuelled by the requests. And we are very, very strongly Canadian in our identity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11562 I think those things are something that is very refreshing to the Canadian Christian, which is why they do like to support The Miracle Channel. And for a change ‑‑ and I'm going to reflect a little bee in my bonnet. I'm so tired of seeing American Christian television programs as the ones perceived to be the only ones doing something globally when we have a great industry right here in Canada, great producers, great programmers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11563 I, for one, am in favour of advancing their cause. And I do. This is our history for 11 years and I would like to see that continued.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11564 Our presence in the Calgary and Edmonton markets will only advance that even further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11565 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. Dewert; thank you, Mr. Klassen. Thank you to the members of your team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11566 We will recess and take a break up to 3:30.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11567 MR. DEWERT: Thank you very much.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1510 / Suspension à 1510
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1535 / Reprise à 1535
LISTNUM 1 \l 11568 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11569 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11570 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with items 5 and 6 on the agenda, which are applications by Rogers Broadcasting Limited for licences to operate multilingual ethnic television programming undertakings in Calgary and in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11571 The new station in Calgary would operate on Channel 38 with an average effective radiated power of 310,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 510,000 watts/antenna height of 325.1 metres).
LISTNUM 1 \l 11572 The new station in Edmonton would operate on Channel 56 with an average effective radiated power of 340,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 530,000 watts/antenna height of 231.9 metres).
LISTNUM 1 \l 11573 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Alain Strati, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11574 You will have 30 minutes to make your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11575 Mr. Strati.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 11576 MR. STRATI: Bonjour, Monsieur le Président, membres du conseil et employées du conseil.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11577 My name is Alain Strati. I am Regulatory Affairs Vice‑President for Rogers Media. We are delighted to appear before you to present our application for OMNI Alberta, two stations to serve Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11578 Before I start, I would like to introduce you to the rest of our team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11579 Starting from my far left and your far right, we have Renato Zane, Vice‑President, News; Rima Kar, producer at OMNI Television; Rael Merson, President of Rogers Broadcasting Limited; Madeline Ziniak, Vice‑President and Station Manager for OMNI Television; Paritosh Mehta, Director, Independent Production Development; Melanie Farrell, Director, Community Liaison; Malcolm Dunlop, Vice‑President, Programming and Marketing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11580 In the back row, starting from the left again, we have Jane Armstrong, Vice‑President of Environics; David Campbell, President of Media Buying Services; Jamie Haggarty, Vice‑President, Financial Operations for Rogers Media; Kelly Colasanti, Vice‑President, Operations and Engineering; and Jackson Ip, Account Executive, National Language Sales for OMNI.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11581 In the audience today we also have Tony Viner, President and CEO of Rogers Media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11582 OMNI wishes to play a role in the evolution of the Canadian television system. This role is reflected in a vision we have been working towards for more than 25 years. It is a vision of high quality Canadian programming and deep community involvement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11583 We see OMNI stations reflecting the diversity of local communities across Canada, serving the programming needs of underserved audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11584 We see a national broadcaster with the ability to access multiple platforms, to report on local, national and international news stories and express them within a local context so that communities have a voice to reflect their interests and their concerns.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11585 We see a broadcaster with a platform for national dialogue, able to facilitate shared experiences from local communities across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11586 We see a strong financially stable broadcaster with the resources needed to provide Canadian audiences with a greater variety of programming options, able not only to provide local news and community programs but also cross‑cultural initiatives and high quality documentaries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11587 We see OMNI as the catalyst for the further development of the Canadian programming industry by allowing new Canadian producers to tell their stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11588 We want to connect local communities with each other and convey the opinions and cultural experiences of these communities to television audiences across Canada and around the world. We are partway towards the completion of that vision already and the addition of ethnic television service in Alberta is an important building block.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11589 For the balance of our presentation we will focus on four key issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11590 We will explain:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11591 (1) why OMNI is the best applicant to serve the ethnic communities in Calgary and Edmonton;
LISTNUM 1 \l 11592 (2) why OMNI has the best mode to serve these communities;
LISTNUM 1 \l 11593 (3) why the time is now for ethnic television in Alberta; and
LISTNUM 1 \l 11594 (4) why our application will transform the local production community through the injection of $10 million for Canadian program funding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11595 Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11596 MS ZINIAK: Thank you, Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11597 Why is OMNI the best applicant?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11598 Our 25 years of building ethnic television in Ontario have made us a world leader in ethnic broadcasting. We have created a local voice for underserved communities and in so doing have set the standard for ethno‑cultural programming globally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11599 We have become an international model for ethnic broadcasting and are regularly consulted by regulatory and policy‑making agencies from around the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11600 We create award‑winning programming. Our news programming and specials have won awards for programming excellence from the Canadian Ethnic Journalist and Writers Club. Our documentaries have won awards from the New York Film Festival, the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, Amnesty International and even the United Nations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11601 Our ethnic programming has found a receptive audience among the ethno‑cultural communities in Ontario. Indeed, when the demand for access outstripped the available airtime, the Commission awarded us a second licence to alleviate the shortfall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11602 We have single‑handedly created the market for television advertising in languages other than English and French. We have helped establish the value of third language audiences by funding studies into their size and spending habits and still today act as the conscience of the rating agencies in regard to audience measurement practices and techniques.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11603 The federal and Ontario governments have recognized our capability by appointing OMNI as their agency of record for third language advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11604 We have developed systems and procedures to ensure that our programming is fair and balanced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11605 Our principles of inclusiveness and reflection are embodied in the roles of our advisory board, editorial policy and journalistic standards and have been adopted as industry standards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11606 We have advocated the causes of diversity and multiculturalism in our industry, in our communities and at all levels of government. We have consistently led industry initiatives, such as the Task Force for Cultural Diversity in Television and the RTNDA Diversity Committee. We have pushed for changes in the funding structure to encourage the production of Canadian third language programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11607 We have ensured a legacy for the immigrant experience in Canada by including third language television programming from OMNI, the National Archives and libraries of Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11608 We have a passion for what we do, and our involvement in ethnic media is not limited to what you see only on the television screen. We have earned the trust of Canadian ethno‑cultural communities and are a primary resource as they seek to find a place for themselves in the Canadian broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11609 We will bring the same dedication, energy and dynamism to our stations in Calgary and Edmonton to make them a valued partner with ethno‑cultural communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11610 Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11611 MR. STRATI: Why do we have the best application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11612 We have designed an ethnic television model that responds to the needs and demands of the ethnic communities in Calgary and Edmonton. Our model is based on a number of key principles.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11613 One, there are established ethnic communities that are largely integrated and also immigrant groups that are new to this country. Our application serves both of these groups. We have not designed our schedule simply based on StatsCan tables of the largest groups by ethnic origin; rather, we have evaluated the needs of the communities to ensure that we meet their needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11614 Much of our ethno‑cultural programming is devoted to the newer immigrant communities, such as Chinese, South Asian, Vietnamese, Filipino and Arabic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11615 Two, each of Calgary and Edmonton cannot support an ethnic station, but together they can. Therefore, we have proposed a regional programming model that aggregates the ethnic populations in both cities with one schedule. Independent producers in Edmonton and Calgary can more effectively sell local ads and promote their programs in both markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11616 Three, the ethnic composition of Calgary and Edmonton is fairly similar and the individual ethnic communities are deeply interested in the news and events in both cities. Therefore, it makes sense to air locally produced programming in both of the markets. To fail to do so would unnecessarily deprive an ethno‑cultural community in one city of valuable television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11617 All of our programs, without exception, will be broadcast in both markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11618 Four, launching over‑the‑air television in Edmonton and Calgary is a challenging business proposition. Therefore, we have adopted a model for ethnic broadcasting which experience has shown is workable and effective. We have a hybrid model for production which uses both in‑house production and independent production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11619 Our model leverages the knowledge and experience of local producers and provides the infrastructure and support they need to produce the highest quality and most reflective local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11620 We propose to program 60 percent of our schedule with ethnic programming, with no less than 50 percent in third language. Our ethnic schedule will serve no less than 20 ethno‑cultural groups in 20 different languages every month.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11621 Five, ethnic audiences in Calgary and Edmonton want compelling programming reflecting their community and providing news and information about their province and their country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11622 OMNI's proposed schedule has daily Mandarin, Cantonese and South Asian newscasts. We have magazine programming which addresses current affairs, trends and social issues. We have a $10 million production fund for the production of high quality documentaries. We are also providing cross‑cultural programs which allow ethnic communities to communicate with each other and share their stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11623 We have access to award‑winning documentaries, dramas and community programs produced by OMNI in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11624 Taken together, we believe these principles and these programming commitments provide the model for a strong and reflective ethnic broadcaster for Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11625 Melanie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11626 MS FARRELL: The time is now for ethnic television in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11627 Ethno‑cultural Canadians have a long and proud history of making significant contributions to Edmonton and Calgary, dating back more than 100 years. Earlier of waves of immigration from Germany, the Ukraine and Poland have now been joined by large Chinese, South Asian, Vietnamese and Filipino population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11628 Thirty‑eight percent of the 2001 Census respondents categorized themselves as having ethnic origins other than Canadian, English and French. More than 21 percent of the respondents had a mother tongue other than English or French.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11629 The diversity of Alberta's population will only increase in the years ahead. More people are choosing Alberta as their primary immigration destination and many will continue to migrate from other cities across Canada because of the job opportunities and the economic growth this province has to offer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11630 The economic outlook is very positive. Economic growth is amongst the strongest, not only in Canada but across North America. Recent population increases are startling. This was the fastest growing region in the 2001 Census and the growth rate has increased since then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11631 Municipal and provincial governments recognize the need to attract more immigrants to Alberta. They understand that the continued prosperity will depend, in part, on their ability to attract more people to cities like Calgary and Edmonton to fill job openings and to avoid future labour shortages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11632 Over the last five years increasing numbers of new Canadians have come to Alberta through immigration and migration from other communities across Canada. Immigration statistics may even understate the demand for language programming. Many non‑English speakers who are here on a temporary basis through work permits and visas also require information and entertainment in their language of comfort.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11633 The agencies that service immigrant communities are already under stress. Growing ethnic populations in Calgary and Edmonton require increased support from the development of local social and cultural institutions. OMNI can play an important role in supporting local agencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11634 Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11635 MS ZINIAK: Thank you, Melanie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11636 Our application will transform the local production community. We believe applicants for new broadcast licences have an obligation to propose tangible benefits. Benefits provide an opportunity for applicants to make a tangible contribution to the development of a stronger and more reflective Canadian broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11637 In our application we have proposed a comprehensive $10 million benefits package, not only to stimulate more television production Alberta, but also to foster the development of new ideas and the participation of new producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11638 We propose to spend $8 million on the production of quality ethnic dramas and documentaries, including $4 million for cross‑cultural programming initiatives; $500,000 for the development of scripts and pilots for theses documentaries and for other programming initiatives; $1 million for a comprehensive English as a Second Language educational television initiative; $250,000 to support the Canadian Ethnic Media Association; and $250,000 for ethnic new media program producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11639 We have seen the results of a benefits initiative at OMNI 2 and the very positive impact it has had on the Canadian production industry. We want to provide the same kinds of opportunities for producers here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11640 Until a few years ago there was no government or industry sources to support the production of third language programming, but OMNI changed that. We provided the funding needed to give ethnic program producers the opportunity to tell their stories and express their cultural experiences to Canadian audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11641 The OMNI 2 production initiative has created a new ethnic production industry in Canada. It has provided many producers with their very first experience in Canadian television, over 80 percent of first time producers, and the fund provided with an opportunity to gain valuable experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11642 They have taken this experience to other projects and other funding sources and attained their place in the Canadian production industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11643 Our fund has had an impact on the Canadian broadcasting system that far outweighs the absolute amount of the benefit. The program has created the environment and underlying infrastructure to support ethnic programming production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11644 The program has been truly transformational and has become a source of pride for ethnic producers and ethnic television audiences as well. They have evolved Canadian cultural reflection to a brand new level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11645 Here are but a few examples.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11646 "Jihad ... Struggling with Islam" is an inciteful portrait of first‑time director Hina Khan regarding the events of September 11th which forced her to come to terms with being Muslim, a faith that she was born into but felt no real connection with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11647 "Let's Talk About It" was a compelling call to action from director Deepa Mehta, with three immigrant women sharing their stories of domestic violence and the negative impact on their children and families.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11648 "The Mushuau Innu: Surviving Canada" explored the devastating impact of constitutional violations for more than 50 years by the federal government on the Innu of Davis Inlet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11649 "Gloriously Free" was a powerful profile of gay and lesbian immigrants to Canada and their personal journeys of seeking refuge and comfort in the more open Canadian society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11650 These documentaries have received national and international recognition and numerous awards, and there is much more on the way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11651 "The M Word" is a documentary that will provide an historical perspective and an in‑depth analysis of Canada's policy on multiculturalism.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11652 "Once Upon a Time in Toronto" is a 20‑episode Mandarin language drama series which will focus on a cross‑section of Chinese immigrant families in Toronto. The taping of "Once Upon a Time in Toronto" is an unprecedented Canadian production. Production companies from both Canada and China are participating in this production of the series, and the programs will be broadcast in both countries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11653 The $10 million OMNI benefits initiative will allow producers in Alberta to unearth unique Canadian stories and contribute to a growing collection of perspectives on Canadian ethnicity and multiculturalism. It is the local perspective that will be communicated, the local voice that will be heard, not only here but also on the OMNI stations in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11654 Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11655 MR. STRATI: In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, our role in the Canadian over‑the‑air television system is based on service to underserved audiences. We bring experience, talent and resources to our involvement in this very competitive and challenging business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11656 In making your decision on licensing television stations for these markets, we ask you to consider four factors:
LISTNUM 1 \l 11657 (1) OMNI Television is a world leader in ethno‑cultural broadcasting. Our experience and track record has made our programming the gold standard in the industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11658 (2) Our station model has been carefully designed to fit the ethno‑cultural communities and the financial realities of the marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11659 (3) Attracting immigrants and settling immigrant communities will be crucial to continued economic growth in Alberta. The time is now for ethnic television stations in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11660 (4) Ownership of a broadcast licence brings with it the responsibility to give back to the system. Our $10 million benefits package is a real and tangible program which will transform local ethnic production in Alberta as it did in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11661 Our commitment to ethnic broadcasting is rooted in a deep‑set belief that multiculturalism will be a bedrock of Canadian social and economic policy for years to come. We hope to play an important role in providing the social and cultural support networks needed to welcome new immigrants to this country and continue to reflect their Canadian experience as they establish and integrate themselves into our multicultural society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11662 After considering these factors, we hope you will consider the licensing of OMNI in Calgary and Edmonton to be in the public interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11663 Thank you for the opportunity to present our application. We are thrilled about the possibility of serving communities here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11664 We will end our presentation with a video that will hopefully encapsulate the experience and the energy of OMNI Television.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 11665 MR. STRATI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of Commission. We would be glad to answer any questions you may have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11666 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Strati.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11667 I will ask Commissioner Cram to ask the first questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11668 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Strati, it's déjà vu all over again, isn't it, from Toronto. It was me then and it is me now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11669 First I want to clear up the languages and groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11670 Mr. Strati, you know that Schedule 18 says 19 languages, 21 groups and the application at 7.17 says minimum 20 languages, 20 groups. The supplementary brief says 20, 20 at page 2, but at page 35, 20, 25.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11671 MR. STRATI: I would be glad to clear that up very quickly, Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11672 Our commitment is for 20 groups in 20 languages every month. In the supplementary brief there was a quick typo and other documents had information about the programming schedule we filed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11673 But certainly our commitment, both in the application form itself and in the supplementary brief, is for 20 groups and 20 languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11674 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many are English, hyphenated‑English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11675 MR. STRATI: To get to the ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 11676 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In languages, I mean.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11677 MR. STRATI: In languages, English can only count as one language. So the 19 languages would be ‑‑ third languages wouldn't be English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11678 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So the 20th language could either be, if I saw somewhere English‑African or English‑Caribbean, they are all one language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11679 MR. STRATI: That's correct. They could be a different ethnic group depending on the program but only the one it would count.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11680 As one example, there might be a French ‑‑ in OMNI Television in Toronto if there was an opportunity for a French program, an African program, you might have that as another additional language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11681 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. My first issue is going to be the obvious difference between your programming philosophy and that of Multivan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11682 I think you address that fairly well at Item 1 on page 10 where you talked about the ethnic communities that are largely integrated and also immigrant groups that are new to this country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11683 Do you have data showing that the ‑‑ I'll say the German‑Ukrainian communities are largely integrated and that your focus consists of immigrant groups that are new say in the last five‑ten years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11684 MR. STRATI: Absolutely, and we filed some of that in our application and I will point to it quickly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11685 But just to answer your question about German, we are also proposing a German program. There is a significant community here in Alberta, strong media ties here in Alberta. The Albertaner is a very successful, and has been run for a very long time, German newspaper.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11686 So certainly we are proposing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11687 We are also proposing and focusing on a lot of other new communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11688 So when you talk about statistics, there are different elements. You can break down the statistics. So you can look at ethnic origin, which provides you the basic sort of first line, if you will, in terms of the ethno‑cultural composition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11689 But then you could start talking about other elements like mother tongue, knowledge of language and even home language in terms of who uses the language at home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11690 And sometimes the linguistic elements can give you more information about integration, also in terms of media consumption and the need for third language programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11691 If you are using English, for example, in significant amounts of the day, in your life, at work and all the media you consume, you already have access to local information. You may have an interest certainly in, for example, German programming. If you don't have that facility linguistically, then that's where really we come in and that's where we get our focus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11692 Some of our statistics we filed, Commissioner Cram, you will look at recency of immigration, in the last ten years. It only goes to the 2001 Census, unfortunately. If we had a couple more months, we would get the 2006 Census, which would give a lot more information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11693 But recency of immigration is another important point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11694 If you look at the recency, it really is from Asia. It is from mainland China, from Hong Kong, from Vietnam, from the Philippines. We have a Korean program, if you look at the Calgary statistics, there is a significant Korean immigration. You see that in the last ten years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11695 Statistics is only one element in the sort of evaluation process. There is more to it. But it is one of the factors that has some weight and begins the process of evaluating.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11696 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There is a heck of a chunk of Chinese programming and I'm going to say Chinese in both of them, because it is similar, the grid: 17.8 percent programming when in Calgary there is 4.7 percent of the population, the 2001 StatsCan Census, and in Edmonton 3.5 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11697 Is it in part why you have this ‑‑ it is possibly four times the percentage of the population. Are you doing this programming in part because you already have the programming available?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11698 MR. STRATI: No. Our focus will be on local programming; some of these programs in Chinese, for example, the newscast both in Cantonese and Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11699 I will ask Madeline to give you a bit more information about our process we are looking at in serving different communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11700 You mentioned one statistic to me. I have the home language statistic here in front of me for the 2001 Census. I apologize, we didn't file it as part of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11701 If you look at the Chinese community, for example, on home language you will find that it is statistically speaking three times higher than any other community in Calgary. There is about 40,000 home language in Chinese. The next group is Punjabi with 14.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11702 So statistics is only one part of it, but it gives you the context in terms of the use of the language again and the demand and desire for third language media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11703 Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11704 MS ZINIAK: Also to add that certainly when we talked to the community here ‑‑ and both our teams, both Paritosh and Melanie were extensively here in both Calgary and Edmonton ‑‑ which was most striking was how we know the communities are going to be able to access our program proposal procedure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11705 But what they did certainly find out is the fact that we take a look at building programs, language programs, we took a look of course at demographics but also recency of immigration and also the need for language programming, the need for and the availability of journalists and producers who are here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11706 Certainly we feel that we have a very good talent base here in order to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11707 We are watching this also in Ontario where although the 2006 statistics aren't out yet, we know that the Mandarin speaking community continues to be something to watch for. It is starting to grow. And indeed we also know by our proposal procedure that there seems to be a lot of independent producers who want to get the message out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11708 So all these elements work together when we consider which languages, which communities we are going to be broadcasting to and how viable they are going to be as far as having a sustainable business infrastructure, as well as do we have the talent to work with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11709 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You did get StatsCan to give ‑‑ I think it was StatsCan to do those projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11710 What are your own projections for say the number of Chinese speaking people let's say at home, who speak Chinese at home? What would that be effective next year and then effective say the end of a licence term, in 2015?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11711 Can I give that to you as homework?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11712 MR. STRATI: Sure. Again, if it was next year, it would be sort of looking up the table and trying to get that information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11713 The information we have from the Census is a bit dated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11714 Some other interesting element, you will already see from 1991 to 2001 ‑‑ and we have highlighted that in our report, or StatsCan has, in terms of where the immigration populations are coming from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11715 There are other elements too that you can look at. You can look at work permits, significant amounts of temporary work permits. We are talking about Chinese, but there is Arabic and you will find a lot of South American and Central American work permits for the oil industry in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11716 Some recent statistics have just started to come out from StatsCan that talk about migration, which are really interesting statistics that show the migration that is happening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11717 In the last five years most provinces lose basically. There is a net outflow, if you will of migration.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11718 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I know that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11719 MR. STRATI: The statistics that you see, the growth in Alberta, four or five years ago it was sort of 10,000, 15,000 and now it has ballooned to 50,000 and 60,000. And the migration numbers are ‑‑ it's really the only province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11720 So the work permits, the migration, the increased migration, these are all elements where you start seeing. Immigrants come to Toronto and come to Vancouver and then migrate to Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11721 It is hard to get a sense of that. In our Statistics Canada report unfortunately it is only projections, and projections can only be based on information. So if you look at the initial discussion, it says it is based on patterns up to 2001. We don't have, unfortunately, the pattern.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11722 We have talked to the City of Calgary, the City of Edmonton who have sort of diversity consultants that have been hired that really are focused on bringing more immigrants and keeping immigrants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11723 That's another statistic and another very important one. They don't just talk about how many people are coming to Edmonton. How many people have decided to stay and make Edmonton home?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11724 And that is really about the social and cultural base.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11725 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Let me be more specific.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11726 If you can take away for tonight if you were licensed next year in prime time you are going to be doing two and a half hours a week of Cantonese. That is for, by my calculations, in Edmonton and in Calgary, total 25,000 people in accordance with the 2001 Census. And the Census is racial origin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11727 How many people would you be addressing that Cantonese programming to if you were licensed next year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11728 By the way, I included both Mandarin and Cantonese speakers in that number.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11729 MR. STRATI: We would be glad to provide you with that information and the breakdown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11730 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now the Hindi Punjabi, the South Asian news is in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11731 Is that not correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11732 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11733 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have a small little lacuna for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11734 It appears that Brooks, Alberta, is in the Calgary DMA. If you ever watch CBC, which I'm sure you don't because you watch OMNI, you will know that it is the most multicultural community in Canada. It is fascinating that I see you have no Somali programming planned and yet Brooks is full of people from Somalia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11735 MR. STRATI: I can ask you if you want more information about the Somali, I can ask Paritosh Mehta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11736 We are producing a program in Toronto currently. It is on the schedule. We have also produced a documentary called "Tigers in the Snow", I believe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11737 I think the Somali producer will come tomorrow, actually, and talk about his involvement. He is an intervenor and he will talk about his involvement at OMNI both as an independent producer and certainly in the documentary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11738 It is interesting because the documentary ‑‑ and I will ask Paritosh to give you some further information. Because of the composition of the Somali population in Canada, it does have a significant Alberta element.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11739 MR. MEHTA: Thank you, Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11740 Commissioner Cram, for the last four months both Alain, myself and Melanie have been in Alberta, in both Edmonton and Calgary, talking and meeting with community groups, just sharing our vision with them, as well as hearing what they would like to see on OMNI Television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11741 We did meet a lot of Somali producers. Noticeably one of them is Mr. Abdi Bakal from Edmonton. He is a cab driver by day and he is an independent producer by night. What he does is he produces a local program on the local radio station over there for the Somali communities over there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11742 When we shared our vision with him on what kind of programs we want to bring to OMNI Television in Alberta, he was ecstatic because here is a community. It is a new community; it is a growing community. And they have needs. They have needs to hear Somali stories and news from across Canada and also internationally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11743 Right now in Ontario we have a program over there called "Muuqaalka Soomaalida". It has been on OMNI Television since 2002. Recently the producer also has produced a documentary called "Leopards in the Snow".
LISTNUM 1 \l 11744 Interestingly enough, the documentaries were shot not only in Ontario but it was also shot extensively in Alberta from Edmonton, to Calgary, to Fort McMurray. There is a large Somali community population, exactly as we just mentioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11745 The documentary was very successful. It was shown not only on OMNI Television but is also going to be shown in some of the international places where there is a lot of Somali.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11746 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11747 Now Mandarin versus Cantonese, you, Ms Ziniak, talked about the new interest in Mandarin. Commissioner Cugini and I did our own research yesterday at the Silver Dragon where we were told that there is far more interest in Mandarin than in Cantonese. And Environics told you, at page 5 of their study, that Chinese prefer Mandarin over Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11748 Now albeit, I think it was 46 percent to 38 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11749 My question is: Why is there no Mandarin in prime and why is there only a half an hour news in Mandarin to the hour news in Cantonese in the morning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11750 And overall, it's 11.5 percent Cantonese programming and 6.3 percent Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11751 MR. STRATI: That is a very good observation, Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11752 If you look at our schedule, there are different elements to the schedule. For example, we have a Cantonese language movie on Saturday night which increases Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11753 It's a very difficult decision at times to talk about serving different communities, especially when, for example, you are talking about Mandarin and Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11754 There are a lot of demands every day at OMNI in terms of demands for programming and for service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11755 I'll ask Madeline to give you a bit more information in terms of how specifically we look at Mandarin and Cantonese. By any means it is not just something here in Calgary and Edmonton. It's also big in Toronto and probably in communities across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11756 MS ZINIAK: Thank you, Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11757 This is actually an issue that we are struggling with in Ontario. Indeed, if you look at just the numbers, it could draw you to one conclusion. We have been having extensive meetings also with front‑line settlement workers, and indeed we know that on one hand you are getting a lot of trades, academia from the Mandarin community, but the bigger issue really is the business infrastructure that is available to support Mandarin language programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11758 We have no doubt that it is going to grow and develop. We know it is a matter of timing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11759 We are looking also to grow our Mandarin language programming presently in Toronto. It is really a question of timing. We still have a large emphasis on Cantonese language programming as far as desirability. And I should probably ask somebody, like Malcolm or Jackson, speak to that part of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11760 Indeed, sometimes the numbers are one thing and the reality of fulfilling some of the elements, such as business infrastructure that we know is necessary to make this work is another.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11761 We do look forward, though, to growing Mandarin language programming. We think the time is soon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11762 MR. STRATI: Maybe Jackson could give you a bit of context on Cantonese and the demand for Cantonese and Mandarin language programming. He is in national sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11763 Jackson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11764 MR. IP: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11765 Commissioner, you are right, since the 2001 census there is a much larger percentage of Mandarin speaking immigrants coming from China to Canada. We roughly average about 35,000 a year. Some years it passes over 40,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11766 These people are from mainland China. They are overtaking Cantonese speaking newcomers. They used to be from Hong Kong. They are down to about 1,000 to 2,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11767 However, the Cantonese speaking population is larger. We are, however, watching it and monitoring it closely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11768 But one thing I have to point out. The national advertisers still demand more advertising airtime in Cantonese compared to Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11769 Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11770 MR. DUNLOP: I guess the only thing that I can add to that is that throughout the years we have had more demand for Mandarin programming in terms of sales. But as Jackson said, the rates that we get for the Cantonese market is still much stronger than we get for the Mandarin market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11771 It has a very large established advertising base. There is a lot of agencies, both in Toronto and I believe also in Vancouver, that do a lot of buying for the Chinese market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11772 Right now in terms of demand, it is probably two‑to‑one for Cantonese over Mandarin. But it is changing certainly and we are monitoring it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11773 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Has that anything to do with the fact that Cantonese speakers come primarily from Hong Kong, so a more consumer society, and Mandarin is China? But now it is going to be, I gather, Thailand and Singapore ‑‑ so the fellow from the Silver Dragon told me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11774 MR. DUNLOP: That is exactly it. I remember years ago when I was selling to mainstream agencies, there was a huge demand for the Cantonese market. As Jackson said, everybody was talking about this is the new huge market, and it has stayed that way. Even conventional advertising agencies will always look at the Hong Kong market and the Cantonese market before they will look at the Mandarin market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11775 Selling language is always a challenging thing, and sometimes when we get an advertiser convinced to sell Cantonese, the next thing is to get them to buy Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11776 It is a work in progress. We have an established Cantonese base and we feel the Alberta market, once again, will do quite well with the Cantonese market and fill up the airtime for Mandarin and hopefully increase its airtime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11777 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So is it fair to say that ‑‑ I mean, you are looking at Mandarin and believe that you are into the tipping point. But not only is there the lack of infrastructure, but you have to develop the market for advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11778 Is that really what it comes down to too?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11779 MR. STRATI: That's correct, and part of it is part of your question in terms of practical considerations. The reality is we are producing a newscast in Toronto. We have a large news facility infrastructure, and that allows us to work with our news here in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11780 That is the structure we have currently there, and it would facilitate here as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11781 So it is partly a practical issue. But much like there, the same issue applies in terms of the growing need.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11782 The Mandarin language newscast has recently been launched when we launched OMNI 2, and that audience and that interest is growing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11783 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. I am going to move on to ‑‑ by the way, when I got back to counting here right at the first, you would agree to a COL minimum 20 languages, counting English as one, and minimum 20 groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11784 MR. STRATI: A month, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11785 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sorry about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11786 Cross‑cultural programming, you have 19 hours of it; 15 percent of your grid.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11787 At one point I read it was in English, but then "Bollywood Boulevard" looks like it is in Hindi and English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11788 MR. STRATI: It has elements of both, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11789 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because you would be quoting the films. Is that it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11790 MR. STRATI: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11791 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is it subtitled or anything or is the majority of this cross‑cultural programming just English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11792 MR. STRATI: Well, I will ask Madeline to give you a little bit more context about cross‑cultural programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11793 Very quickly ‑‑ and you are quite right, for us to establish the category of cross‑cultural programming, I looked at two factors: one is access; the other one is interest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11794 The access, English, it can be versioning. It can be a documentary produced in the Romanian language that is then versioned in English. That has a cross‑cultural element to it as well, with the captioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11795 So we try to increase accessibility as much as possible so that as many community groups, as many television viewers can see our programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11796 And then it's about interest. There may be varying degrees of interest in terms of what the content is delivering in the cross‑cultural programs on any given day on any given program. And it may also be targeted and focused more to one specific group or maybe one or two or perhaps the Indian diaspora which is like our South Asian newscast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11797 So you are quite right in terms of looking at a program like "Bollywood Boulevard". It would be accessibility with English and there would be interest, certainly from the South Asian community, very strong interest. But you are also looking at the opportunity for those who enjoy Bollywood movies to also get their entertainment information about what is new in Bollywood.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11798 MS ZINIAK: Cross‑cultural programming is a genre that we are very excited about, and this is in response to many of the needs that we have heard very strongly here in Alberta and quite frankly also with the success of our programming in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11799 Cross‑cultural programming ultimately is something to initiate cross‑cultural understanding. Alain is correct in saying that, number one, you are bringing together culturally diverse communities speaking perhaps about issues that bind them, issues like lobbying and advocating immigrant seniors, a better quality of life for immigrant seniors. Or it could specifically looking at one specific ethno‑cultural group dealing with an issue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11800 Number one, it is access to that information because it's in English. And we have great examples of that, of which Rima Kar is a producer of "Omni Culture", which brings together the various stories at OMNI that were originally produced in language and then versioned into English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11801 And another program, "Studio C ‑ Multicultural Canada", does precisely that. It is a dialogue five form bringing together those experiences from culturally diverse communities, as well as allowing for expression and dialogue from individuals who have a story to tell or share amongst the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11802 So we really think that the timing is important for this to not only speak to the various diverse communities but to larger society as well, to really understand what the communities are dealing with, their perspective on issues as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11803 I think part of our motivation also is to include aboriginal content as well as cross‑cultural.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11804 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The time slots interests me, 4:00 to 5:00. Is it repeated elsewhere?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11805 "Planet Groove", "OMNI Culture", "Bollywood Boulevard". Is it any other place? At least that's what I have. I have the schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11806 MR. STRATI: There is a schedule that is highlighted in red with the cross‑cultural programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11807 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11808 MR. STRATI: As you said, we have sort of established a window from 4:00 to 5:00 weekdays.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11809 There is also some prime time opportunities. You mentioned "Planet Groove" and "Alberta Business Signature Series", which would be the documentary either from Alberta or Ontario to be versioned in English. So it is the English version of it that is available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11810 We have included in here a South Asian newscast, because it has accessibility. It is a new one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11811 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. And then I wanted to talk about the agreement you have with APTN and versioning it into third languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11812 When is that scheduled and what ones have you done like that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11813 MR. STRATI: I will pass that over to Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11814 Really what it is, it comes out of a lot of over the years work in partnership with APTN, both operationally and now we have seen it with production funding and now this is another element.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11815 Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11816 MS ZINIAK: Thank you, Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11817 Our relationship or partnership with APTN is one that we feel we are both niche broadcasters and many of the challenges that we have in front of us are shared.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11818 One of them, of course, is bringing forward messages and programming that is important to share with not only the specific community but the larger community. But also our relationship with APTN includes several things, one of which is lobbying for a better audience measurement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11819 So it makes a lot of sense for us to work together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11820 The most obvious element of course is programming. Certainly one of the great gaps that was initiated and identified by the Task Force for Cultural Diversity was a severe lack of reflection of aboriginal peoples and their stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11821 We felt what is more Canadian than having aboriginal content versioned into multilingual languages, as well as aboriginal languages. This really initiated an alliance that we feel is very important to bring to the Canadian audiences, specifically to the ethno‑cultural audiences, notwithstanding First Nations audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11822 On the programming level there are great strides that we think we can contribute to in the broadcasting system, but also we are learning from one another.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11823 The sales team from APTN lives at OMNI in Toronto. The benefits that have come out what you see here in Alberta really grew out of that partnership.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11824 Also, from a management point of view, we have strategic management sessions that we both are invited to each other's sessions and that has proven to be very helpful, as well as mentorship programs where our executive producer, on the invitation of APTN, will be visiting the newsroom in Winnipeg to help with the development and the increase of news stories in the approach we have taken, as well as the request is to have programming individuals or reporters at OMNI Television to help us expand in the content area of aboriginal stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11825 So it is a significant partnership and we have had a lot of discussion to bring us to where we are today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11826 We feel very strongly, certainly with the outreach that has been committed to, that there is a real need here in Alberta for that kind of approach and understanding of aboriginal perspective through programming and also reaching multicultural audiences with those stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11827 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My question was: Give me examples of ones that you have reversioned and broadcast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11828 MR. STRATI: We have not initiated that yet. We haven't versioned and broadcast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11829 Through the OMNI fund you have heard we have projects in aboriginal programming. Again, it is in an aboriginal language as well as in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11830 When we were up in Edmonton we were ‑‑ Melanie is a member of SEBAR(ph) and we were up in Edmonton and we met with Bert Crowfoot and we sat down and talked to just let him know what we were doing. It was sort of an informational session to talk about our initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11831 As many meetings as we had in those weeks and months, it ended up almost talking more about what they were up to and what they wanted to sort of see in OMNI and what we could bring to the table than what we would talk about, which is fine by us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11832 He was actually working on a fascinating documentary. He had himself actually gone across the country and actually videotaped four elders. These are four elders that he thought really had the aboriginal culture, the aboriginal history and that needed to be passed on. He was concerned about their health because he thought they really, as he said, had it right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11833 It was sort of sitting on a shelf, and it was something that he had worked on the year before but he had so many projects on the go. And he had a new assistant or a new producer that was working on other tasks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11834 So it sort of these specific projects that come up ‑‑ that's an example ‑‑ that come up in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11835 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How many hours on average in a year on these stations would you have reversioned APTN programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11836 I've heard a lot about what you want to do, but I haven't heard anything concrete. And where would you schedule it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11837 MS ZINIAK: That would actually be programming that we would fund through independent producers that APTN would guide us in the selection of independent producers that would be there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11838 In a sense, we are looking for independent production involvement that will actually come into the schedule in the signature series in the documentary corridor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11839 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you are not actually taking programming from APTN and sub‑titling it or anything like that. I must have misapprehended, then.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11840 MS ZINIAK: That is part of it, but we are going to be working ‑‑ it would be documentary work that we are looking at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11841 MR. STRATI: We have talked with John Ross at APTN. It would be going forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11842 In terms of how many hours, I think we had talked about ‑‑ you know, you can talk about a program series with a certain portion of episodes. A typical episode would be 13 episodes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11843 So we probably would start with a 13‑episode series that would be from APTN that would be versioned that would be on OMNI.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11844 It is not in the schedules because it wouldn't appear necessarily on a day‑to‑day, week‑to‑week, month basis. But I think that is where we would start. That is where we talked about starting with versioning one series.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11845 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So 13 hours a year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11846 MR. STRATI: The initial work would be on one program. That would be the initial element of the initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11847 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11848 Then you have various languages ‑‑ I love that ‑‑ various languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11849 How many hours? When would they be scheduled and what various languages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11850 It's 6.3 percent. Would that be some of the Somalian programming that we were talking about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11851 MR. STRATI: There would be ‑‑ there is various elements in the schedule that have ‑‑ as you mentioned it's various because it would have various components to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11852 For example, we have an independent community produces showcase, which on a not necessarily week‑by‑week but there could be a series that would work with one producer that would be in one particular language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11853 So when we say various, the other example would be the documentaries and the dramas that come from the funding. So in any given week, you would have different languages available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11854 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Actually, it's other that you call, and it is 10.3 percent. It includes apparently "Planet Groove" for the cross‑cultural stuff that you would have in your programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11855 Total ethnic third language programming is, as you said today, 60 percent ethnic, no less than 50 percent in a third language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11856 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11857 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That's correct? Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11858 You would accept that as a COL?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11859 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11860 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then prime time, 80 percent in a third language during peak time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11861 MR. STRATI: It is 80 percent ethnic in peak prime time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11862 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Ethnic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11863 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11864 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In prime time. And you would accept that as a COL?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11865 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11866 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Prime time being defined as?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11867 MR. STRATI: The peak prime period is defined from 8:00 to 10:00.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11868 COMMISSIONER CRAM: 8:00 to 10:00?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11869 MR. STRATI: Yes, as we have put in our commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11870 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The COL is 80 percent ethnic during peak prime time consisting of 8:00 to 10:00 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11871 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11872 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now we have to talk about the flexibility that you asked for at the TV hearing, and that is not this hearing; it's a different hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11873 However, you said in reply to some of the interventions that at the TV hearing you only asked for the general principle of flexibility and that if we granted that in the TV hearing, then you would have to come back to us and say we want that flexibility and this is the kind of flexibility we want.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11874 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11875 MR. STRATI: That's right. In terms of our application, we are fully committed to 8 and 10 o'clock as a COL.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11876 The TV policy hearing was a lot of discussion about the future of the television industry, a lot of variables and factors in the industry, whether it is fragmentation, whether it is distant signal viewing, PBRs, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11877 For us, we talked about the flexibility from 8:00 to 10:00 or, if you will, the reduction or removal of that. It was because in the years to come, as we look forward, both in the Canadian broadcasting system in terms of what Canadian broadcasters are doing, they have significant flexibility to adapt, if you will, to the possible changes that are happening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11878 We thought that ethnic broadcasters potentially could have that in the future as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11879 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I heard the argument. What you then said in this reply to the intervention, you would probably not change your strategy but you may not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11880 I think that was in reply to ‑‑ I can't remember ‑‑ the CanWest, I think.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11881 MR. STRATI: CanWest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11882 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11883 So where are we left? If Multi then comes up to us and says we will stick to exactly what we promised in this application, we will not apply for any flexibility, even if you give it to us, and you are saying we may apply, we would have to then compare the two of you on that basis?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11884 MR. STRATI: Well, for the purposes of this application we are committed to 8:00 to 10:00. It is part of our application. It is our commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11885 Commissioner Cram, Channel M and OMNI were there together. We were there for TV policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11886 The idea and the policy discussion is applicable to all ethnic broadcasters. It wouldn't be necessarily applicable to either/or.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11887 From our perspective, we are committed to 8:00 to 10:00, but if there was the opportunity to have that discussion to allow for the flexibility, we think it should apply across the board and not to any particular applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11888 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Now were at the Fairchild COL, and we discussed this in Toronto. You are opposing it on the basis that you're programming is local and Fairchild's is not, especially as it applies to Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11889 How many hours of local Cantonese/Mandarin do you have in your proposal, Cantonese/Mandarin local out of the total Chinese hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11890 MR. STRATI: There are 14.5 hours of Cantonese in total.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11891 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Chinese or Cantonese?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11892 MR. STRATI: Cantonese. I'm suggesting for Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11893 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11894 MR. STRATI: And there is 10 hours in news and then there is two hours of a local program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11895 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So 12 hours of 14 for Cantonese local?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11896 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11897 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What about Mandarin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11898 MR. STRATI: For Mandarin there is eight hours and of the eight hours there is five hours in total, which is the news. There is two hours local, two hours of a local programming, and then one hour from Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11899 So seven of the eight hours would be local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11900 COMMISSIONER CRAM: How did you say the news was, the Mandarin news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11901 MR. STRATI: It is repeated, sorry. It is two and a half. It is repeated, so that's how I got the five.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11902 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So seven out of eight.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11903 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11904 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11905 The non‑local programming, is there any possibility that it would ever be the same as any of Fairchild's Chinese programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11906 MR. STRATI: I might ask Malcolm to confirm. There is a movie, but other than that this would be OMNI programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11907 Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11908 MR. DUNLOP: As far as we are aware, we have not run any of the same programming as Fairchild.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11909 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Would you agree to a COL that would say save and except the possibility of one feature film per week, Chinese programming shall be distinct and not aired on any other programming service not otherwise owned by Rogers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11910 MR. STRATI: Yes, I think so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11911 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you want a repeat?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11912 MR. STRATI: No. I was just catching the last part looking at Malcolm; but yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11913 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. So we have dealt with Fairchild TV. What about Fairchild CHKF‑FM? It is local and it is heavily Cantonese: morning drive, 9:00 to midnight.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11914 You say in your projections that 6 percent of your revenue is going to come from radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11915 How much of this revenue would you think would come out of the hands of CHKF?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11916 MR. STRATI: That is a good question, Commissioner Cram. I will probably ask Malcolm to give you the context.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11917 It is probably different categories of advertising and it is probably more related to the U.S. non‑ethnic schedule than it would be for an ethnic schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11918 But Malcolm could give you more information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11919 MR. DUNLOP: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11920 In terms of the local Fairchild radio, we did not think we would have any impact at all on that station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11921 What we have found over the years at OMNI is that when an ethnic broadcaster comes to the market, you actually start to build the market and you start to build interest in the advertising to the ethnic market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11922 So we actually believe we can build the market and hopefully it will increase the size of the radio market as well. It has happened in Ontario. There are numerous Chinese radio stations right now that are quite successful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11923 So we really do feel that we can start building the pie here in terms of ethnic advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11924 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So where would that 6 percent of your revenue come from? What radio stations would you be ‑‑ radio advertising stations in general. Where would it come from?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11925 MR. DUNLOP: We took that away. We thought that would mostly be either retail English or national English. We think it will be the English market that it will affect more than it will affect the language market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11926 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. At 5.5 of your application you say that you will work with ethnic radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11927 I can understand how you can work with OK Radio in Edmonton, because you own it, but how would you be working with CHKF?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11928 MR. STRATI: I believe the reference was in terms of WORLD FM, but others on the panel might ‑‑ I mean, certainly in Toronto we have had some initiatives working in the community, et cetera, that involve both radio and television in ethnic media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11929 MS FARRELL: If I can add to that, Commissioner, often we in Toronto ‑‑ and I would imagine and expect it to be so here in Calgary and Edmonton ‑‑ do work with other mediums when we sponsor events and get involved in community. There is often a radio partner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11930 MR. MERSON: Commissioner Cram, if I can add one quickie, we do think we have been the conscience of the ratings agencies. We really have developed the ethnic advertising market by studies, by proving out the size of the ethnic market, by proving out their spending habits and their spending power. And we have dragged radio stations and other ethnic media along with us in our tow. We really do think that will be one of the things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11931 We talk about WORLD FM. We fear nothing. WORLD FM would be a real beneficiary of the work that we would do in developing the ethic advertising market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11932 MR. STRATI: One more quick example, if I may.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11933 In Toronto we started a Cantonese language program called "Trendy Sunday" just recently. We hired as talent radio talent from a radio station locally in the market, and it has benefited both of us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11934 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay, local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11935 You have divided the local programming and indeed even the cross‑cultural programming ‑‑ no, not the cross‑cultural; the local programming ‑‑ Edmonton and Calgary along languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11936 It looks like you have in Calgary Cantonese, Mandarin, Filipino, Korean, Arabic and Spanish and in Edmonton, Ukrainian, Punjabi, Hindi, German, Polish and Vietnamese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11937 So are you trying to set up sort of capacities for those languages in the different centres? Is that it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11938 MR. STRATI: It is sort of a lot of factors involved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11939 Sometimes we have spoken to a producer locally who looks like they are a strong producer for that community. Sometimes we look at the need and demand in that community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11940 This is the sample look. We are looking at the two communities in terms of local programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11941 There are many examples here. You mention Ukrainian, German and Polish in Edmonton and we have Cantonese and Mandarin in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11942 You know, Filipino, I've probably met him four different times. There is a Filipino producer here who is in print. He owns one of the local Filipino newspapers. He is also on radio. I think he is on the Community Channel here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11943 And whenever I talk to him, he doesn't want to know about my proposal. He wants to know about Edmonton. He wants to know about getting to Edmonton and continuing what he is doing in ethnic media in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11944 So that's really where it comes from. It comes from talking to different producers, looking at different communities and seeing where we could ‑‑ but certainly they are variables.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11945 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My issue is you have the Hindi and Punjabi people up in Edmonton. What are your capacities in the South Asian community in Calgary if you have the language ‑‑ how are you going to cover them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11946 There is a lot of communities, a lot of languages. And especially South Asian and Chinese, you have news commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11947 MR. STRATI: I could give you some further information about news. We would have local reporters in Calgary in terms of our news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11948 You are probably quite right that if we launch the station and we did look and maybe there was a need for reflection in Calgary in Punjabi, it may very well be that we produce programs in each of the cities. So there would be two.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11949 MS ZINIAK: I would like to add that when we take a look at both Calgary and Edmonton and the natural synergies that are there between communities, we basically establish it as a corridor. We have found that many communities would actually attend events in both cities. There is a real natural flow there which we would like to actually incorporate in our approach to programming which we think is very important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11950 COMMISSIONER CRAM: When you are talking reporters in each city, do you have a number or are you going to use stringers? Or how is that going to happen?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11951 MR. STRATI: Renato.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11952 MR. ZANE: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11953 Yes, we have numbers. We have designed a central news hub based in Edmonton with an extensive production facility and news‑gathering facility in Calgary as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11954 So our model is based on an editorial staff of 20 people, of which seven would be in Calgary and 13 would be in Edmonton because we see Edmonton as being the core news‑gathering centre. In Calgary we would have reporters in South Asian, associate producers in South Asian and a production coordinator also working in Calgary to cover the local community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11955 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So news management, where would the decisions be made as to what goes on the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11956 MR. ZANE: Our model shows the news director based in the Edmonton news centre with the producers for the three languages in Edmonton working together on producing this regional newscast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11957 The regional newscast would take into account the interests and the information needs of people who are South Asian, Cantonese and Mandarin in both communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11958 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You also talked about that you now have an agreement with APTN about news sharing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11959 What kind of stories are we talking about and how would they be put into the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11960 MS ZINIAK: We are approaching this on different levels. Number one, APTN has over 20 news bureaus across Canada that actually we are already taking advantage of when the story we feel is important and relevant to our audiences. So we would certainly be capitalizing on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11961 We are taking a look also, of course, number one, of versioning these stories into our target language groups. So this is really an approach of educating our multilingual audiences to the important issues of the day for the aboriginal and the Canadian people, in fact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11962 Perhaps you would like to add to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11963 MR. ZANE: Thank you, Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11964 We are still in the initial stages of developing this idea. We are in contact with Vera Houle, the news director there. At the moment they are going through a union certification drive so things are a little slow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11965 But our intention, as Madeline alluded to earlier, is to have a reporter from APTN working at OMNI for a period of time and allowing us to better understand aboriginal communities in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11966 We would also benefit from the bureaus and from content, but it is still in the embryonic stage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11967 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11968 Moving on to local advisory board, you have one here in Calgary. How ethnically diverse is the radio advisory board?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11969 MR. MERSON: I'm afraid I don't have it with me. We can certainly provide you with some information on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11970 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Viner would know it right off the top of his head, I'm sure.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 11971 COMMISSIONER CRAM: If you could, just file it tomorrow morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11972 The type of your radio stations here is one thing. I understand the wish not to have 900 advisory panels. What other ways then would you try to get the community's input?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11973 MR. STRATI: Madeline can give you some further contacts about the advisory board, but I think it is about the idea of having advisory boards that actually work together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11974 At Rogers Media, for example, we have editorial committees. We have content committees and polling research with Macleans and others. Renato and other members from OMNI are part of that, and so is 680 News from Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11975 So there is that ability to sort of work together and have diversity of inputs because of the diversity of interests in terms of what ultimately will be communicated back.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11976 Madeline.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11977 MS ZINIAK: I think, Commissioner Cram, as you know, we very much value our advisory boards. The advisory board is only as good as its membership. We haven't appointed anyone yet on the advisory board. Our intent is to have two advisory boards that certainly would enhance the existing advisory boards at times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11978 This is part of the larger vision of trying to continually integrate and take advantage of Rogers as a large company and to really integrate those from the various diverse communities into larger traditional media, if you will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11979 We have had some very good success stories in Toronto with our advisors contributing not only in content but also in positioning different political issues to the rest of Rogers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11980 So distinctly there will be two boards, both in Calgary and Edmonton, that will come together at least twice a year. And we are going to certainly take our time to ensure that these individuals are best suited and most reflective of their needs and our needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11981 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In Edmonton does OK ‑‑ and I don't know the call letters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11982 Does the OK Radio station that is the ethnic station have an advisory committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11983 MR. STRATI: Currently, I believe it doesn't, Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11984 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11985 MR. MERSON: We will certainly have one for it. We have an advisory committee in every single market we are in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11986 As Maddy said, it is a two‑way street. We gain from them and they provide the outreach to us to the local communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11987 Vancouver is a terrific example because we have two advisory boards. We have one for the radio stations and we have one for OMNI in Vancouver, with vastly differing compositions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11988 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So then why wouldn't that apply to Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11989 MR. MERSON: It may ultimately. We will ensure that whatever we do will be reflective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11990 COMMISSIONER CRAM: There will be an advisory committee in Edmonton and in Calgary that will be reflective. It may be the same advisory board for Rogers Radio also in both of those cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11991 MR. MERSON: To be frank, we haven't contemplated what we might do. But we have always ensured advisory boards, both for radio and television, that are in fact separate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11992 Your point is a good one, though, which is we effectively would be in the business in both radio and in television and should consider a single advisory board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11993 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So we can be assured that there will be an advisory board, an appropriate advisory board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11994 MR. MERSON: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11995 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11996 Now independent production. The criteria for which the producers would be eligible: number one, they have to be Alberta based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11997 Are there other criteria?
LISTNUM 1 \l 11998 MR. STRATI: I can talk to that and I will ask Paritosh Mehta to give you some further information. Certainly he has worked with independent producers, both at the station as well as with the benefits initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 11999 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The criteria is the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12000 MR. MEHTA: The criteria is that our vision is to foster new growth in this industry. And 80 percent of our producers are first time producers; not necessarily, but we want to foster the growth in the industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12001 Hence the example I was giving earlier about the Somali producer. If he came to me tomorrow and said: Would you entertain a documentary proposal for us? Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12002 Again, at the same time, if an established ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12003 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The word is the criteria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12004 So it is not a criteria that they have to be a first‑time producer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12005 MR. MEHTA: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12006 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What other criteria?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12007 MR. MEHTA: They have to produce a particular documentary in languages other than English or French. Those are two criteria.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12008 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12009 MR. MEHTA: That's it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12010 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And they have to be Alberta based. Your supplementary brief said they have to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12011 MR. MEHTA: That have to be Alberta based and the stories have to be Canadian ethno‑cultural stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12012 COMMISSIONER CRAM: These decisions are made by?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12013 MR. MEHTA: They will be local. They will be made locally by management, which is going to be based here in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12014 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the administrative costs will be borne by Rogers, not taken out of the fund?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12015 MR. MEHTA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12016 MS ZINIAK: I might add, Commissioner Cram, with independent producers with the documentary genre we also have independent producers for weekly ethno‑cultural shows. And for that we certainly have a stringent list of criteria, one of which is that we have to establish whether or not the community can sustain the programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12017 We take a look at recency of immigration, we take a look at the talent base, we take a look at the business infrastructure; that is retail, perhaps, if that community has grown, as we mentioned in our earlier example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12018 We also take a look at the chronological demographic. Is it a burgeoning youth demographic or are there needs for a 40‑plus demographic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12019 We also take a look at the available acquired material perhaps or news services available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12020 So that is a different decision‑making criteria for the weekly programs that we would entertain in language versus the independent production base, which is different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12021 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12022 Back at the independent production base, the administrative costs would be borne by Rogers outside of the fund?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12023 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12024 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you be willing to report annually on the money being disbursed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12025 MR. STRATI: Yes, absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12026 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So the languages contemplated are ‑‑ the only issue in terms of languages contemplated are that they would be a third language and that there would be some population base that would be interested in it, I would suppose.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12027 MR. MEHTA: Also, we will look at stories. The key thing for us is that they have to be compelling stories from the ethno‑cultural community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12028 MS ZINIAK: I may also add that this is a wonderful opportunity for us to at times address issues and stories from very small communities that perhaps can't sustain a weekly program. We have had great success with a Croatian language documentary about Schumacher, Ontario, where there is a very large settlement of Croatians. This is also versioned in English and Croatian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12029 It is a great historical record and sometimes stories that cannot sustain a regular diet of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12030 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The new media initiative, at page 25 of the supplementary brief and at another place, you talk about developing a formal relationship with a new media program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12031 Have you gone any further with that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12032 MR. STRATI: Commissioner Cram, at the time, the concept had talked about an educational initiative. It came a little bit out of what we were doing with diversity now but would be sort of on a larger scale.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12033 So we have had some initial consultations with SAIT, Southern Alberta Institute of Technology, the same with NAIT, with Mount Royal College. We are talking about different opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12034 The interesting thing is actually having been here for the last little while and talking locally with people, a lot of people are interested in terms of the new media aspect of this. Some producers are talking to us about new media and certainly some initiatives for the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12035 They are telling us that maybe the fund would be an aspect that maybe we will work with producers; that the producer would have a television aspect but then would have a new media aspect.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12036 Initially we talked about an educational sort of initiative that had compelling content, but it may be that it has a new media content which comes out of the production of the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12037 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So this ‑‑ I think it was $250,000, was it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12038 MR. STRATI: That's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12039 COMMISSIONER CRAM: This money then, you are proposing instead of a formal relationship with a new media program would be for a new media component attached to the independent production and that initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12040 MR. STRATI: I guess it could be either. Even with the OMNI fund currently in Ontario there have been new media initiatives that have come out of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12041 We did a documentary on the Canadian Charter and there was a new media component. But it had to go to another fund. There were no funds available from our initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12042 So we are looking at it to say maybe there are two components, an educational and a sort of television production.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12043 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So and/or.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12044 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12045 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then the one I was a really interested in, official language education media initiative, $1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12046 Essentially this is EASL, English as a Second Language and I'm going to say FASL, French as a Second Language, on video or DVD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12047 Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12048 MR. STRATI: Yes. I think it's English as a Second Language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12049 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It looks like it was both official languages, I think on page 29 of your supplementary brief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12050 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12051 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You then say that you will develop this whole initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12052 What if a million isn't enough?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12053 MR. STRATI: We have looked at the potential cost in term of the hours of the programming and in terms of the available additional budget to work with the program, and we think it is sufficient.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12054 We have talked to local agencies, for example. We talked to Jim Burnett in Edmonton. They have Mennonite settlement agencies there. They have an EASL program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12055 So part of it is the component for production, the actual production component for the EASL.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12056 Another is to make the materials available and distribute them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12057 It is a little bit, I guess, like the OMNI 2 initiative with the CBSC on positive portrayal. There was no one that really worked with at that time a translation of the Canadian CBSC codes and after that there was sort of the dissemination of it to make sure it's available in various agencies across the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12058 So it's partly a budget for production and partly for ‑‑ and we are confident that there is enough resources there for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12059 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12060 Synergies with OMNI 1 and 2. It looks like you are going to be programming 17.5 hours of cross‑cultural and third language programming on OMNI 1 and 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12061 Is that going to be throughout the licence term?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12062 MR. STRATI: On our schedule we have ‑‑ that's correct. It is sort of a representative sample.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12063 I think you would find, given the programming from Ontario ‑‑ there is a lot of interesting programming ‑‑ you would have some programming coming to Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12064 So it is probably a number that may go up and down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12065 I think you will certainly see some programming from Alberta that would go to Ontario. German is a good example. The German‑Ukrainian programs, which we are not producing German programs in Ontario.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12066 MS ZINIAK: The fact of the matter is, if I may, in some of the programs that we are producing we are already doing segments here and the rest of the parts of Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12067 "Canada Can Talk" is a Portuguese language program that travels throughout Canada and explores the Portuguese diaspora reality for the Portuguese language community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12068 Radio‑Television Portugal International has picked up this program and is showing it to 17 million people worldwide.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12069 We are exporting Canadian values with this program and indeed because of the nature of the program we have had to give Alberta stories and sometimes British Columbia stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12070 So although we are an Ontario station, we feel compelled by our audiences to be able sometimes to include these very important stories throughout Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12071 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Moving on to other synergies, news sharing. Certainly there will be news sharing with OMNI 1 and 2. Do you have an internal guideline or limit on how much of the Alberta news will be Alberta based or about Alberta?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12072 MR. STRATI: I will ask Renato to give you some information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12073 MR. ZANE: Thank you, Alain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12074 Yes, our model is based on about a third of the newscasts being local Alberta and then a third being national and a third being international and home country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12075 It is a formula we work in Toronto and it works very well for us, and we think it is an important formula to also use here in our proposal for Alberta. We find with the ethnic communities not only is there an interest in knowing what is happening in your neighbourhood, but the connection between ethnic communities is vital.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12076 So we are looking at a third, a third, a third.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12077 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Then foreign programming, 50 hours. Clearly you are going to use "Law and Order" out here at 7 o'clock, aren't you, I mean if you have "Law and Order" at 7 o'clock on OMNI 1 or 2?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12078 MR. DUNLOP: It certainly would be a program that we would consider.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12079 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I mean, at 7 o'clock, it is hard to find anything interesting in Ottawa sometimes, and it's one of my favourite programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12080 MR. DUNLOP: Then, yes, it will be on.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12081 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Man, I have to actually tell you what to put on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12082 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am a little worried, Commissioner Cram, when someone from Saskatchewan says life is boring in Ottawa. But we can talk about that later.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12083 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But with the four stations, eventually don't you think you would be able to increase the price paid for programming and get more competitive for other programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12084 MR. STRATI: I will ask Malcolm to give you more information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12085 I think we are still in the shoulder periods. We are sort of off in the 6:00 to 8:00 and 10:00 to midnight.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12086 Malcolm can talk to you more about programming acquisition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12087 MR. DUNLOP: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12088 Really just what Alain said, we don't compete with top 20 programs because of our 8:00 to 10:00 restriction. That is not a business we are in and it's not a model that works for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12089 We buy strip programming and that's really the model that we use for OMNI.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12090 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am sure that you have read the Multivan application. Deloitte Touche talk about the share for Multivan being somewhere between the share that ACCESS Television gets and Citytv gets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12091 Do you think that is the kind of share you would be getting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12092 MR. DUNLOP: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12093 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And given that, because it is the time for which you are purchasing the programming, your position is that you are not competitive with CHUM, Citytv?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12094 MR. DUNLOP: We would be competitive where we run our English programming certainly, the 6:00 to 8:00 corridor. We compete with CHUM in Toronto right now, so yes, we would be competitive with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12095 But in the 8:00 to 10:00 time period we are really not competitive with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12096 COMMISSIONER CRAM: For the purchasing of programming, does CHUM have news from 6:00 to 7:00?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12097 MR. DUNLOP: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12098 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it is really 7:00 to 8:00 that you may be competitive with CHUM for purchasing programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12099 MR. DUNLOP: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12100 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That "Law and Order" is going to cost more, because I know you are going to put it on. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12101 Any other administrative synergies? I'm sure there are going to be administrative synergies. There is going to be HR, accounting, everything else like that, the normal. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12102 MR. STRATI: Absolutely. We talked about program acquisition, processes and procedures that are already in place, technical operations, employee, HR, career development. These are all synergies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12103 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. Are you going to share facilities with OK Radio in Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12104 MR. MERSON: We haven't planned to right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12105 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So no sharing of reporters or third language resources or anything?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12106 MR. MERSON: In fairness, we had not planned to. We would love to do it, obviously, and might well end up doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12107 But the head count that we devoted to the stations will be devoted to them. And WORLD FM has a business all on its own.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12108 Having said that, we would love to cross‑utilize the talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12109 MR. STRATI: Just to give you a sense of how WORLD FM works currently, they don't have reporters. They have independent producers who work on each program. They will produce the newscast. They sell the spots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12110 What they do is they access information sources and then provide the newscast back to the community as well as the spoken word program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12111 So having access to OMNI in Edmonton would be another news source that they could use in terms of producing their programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12112 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12113 You are now at the 30 percent discount on revenue. You talked in one of your letters of your experience with OMNI 1 and 2 and in Vancouver. I wanted to talk about your experience in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12114 I thought that the station in Vancouver was a different concept from what I would call an ethnic OTA station. Number one, it was only on cable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12115 Was your experience in selling that Vancouver station the same as with OMNI 1 and 2 in that there was a discount?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12116 MR. STRATI: Certainly Malcolm could give you some more information on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12117 I think it's about the niche service. You are into sort of a niche station which is not the big mainstream station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12118 The hurdles, if you will, in terms of sales are similar.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12119 Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12120 MR. DUNLOP: In Vancouver it is even a larger discount than the 30 percent that we had in this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12121 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But your Vancouver station was all ethnic, wasn't it? It didn't have any shoulder English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12122 MR. STRATI: I'm sorry, Commissioner Cram, are you referring to the Rogers Cable ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12123 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, that one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12124 MR. STRATI: That is a cable community channel. You are quite right, there is actually no advertising, no sponsorship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12125 Malcolm is referring to OMNI in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12126 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12127 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a ten‑minute break.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1710 / Suspension à 1710
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1725 / Reprise à 1725
LISTNUM 1 \l 12128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12129 Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12130 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And we continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12131 We were at the discount, the 30 percent discount, and I must have misapprehended your reference to your station in Vancouver because I was thinking it was the ethnic station that you originally had, the cable station that you sold. And it had no advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12132 MR. STRATI: That's right. It was a cable community channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12133 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12134 MR. STRATI: Still on Shaw, actually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12135 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, Shaw has carried it on, I know.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12136 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12137 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So I will leave that alone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12138 In one of your replies to interventions you talked about your revenues being predicated upon no DTH carriage in year 1, and you say you will eventually expect to have DTH carriage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12139 When exactly in your projections did you think you were going to get DTH coverage?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12140 MR. STRATI: I will ask Malcolm to give you some information about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12141 It's not that we have projected it; we are hopeful to get it. Certainly there have been some difficulties with DTH carriage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12142 COMMISSIONER CRAM: In your financial projections, was it year 2, year 3, year 4 or what?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12143 MR. STRATI: Malcolm can give that to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12144 MR. DUNLOP: Thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12145 We projected the DTH to kick in around year 3 or year 4. Once again, we weren't really too sure. I did use it in the forecast for year 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12146 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. When you are looking for revenue from the third language communities on this service, on these two services, who will you be targeting and what percentage of the total third language revenue would you get from each group?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12147 MR. DUNLOP: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12148 The one thing that I think at OMNI over the years I am probably most proud of is a number of years ago we set up what we called a National Language Sales Team. That's how I started off at the station. That is something that we have that we go after national advertisers. We have a separate group of three people whose only job is to go after national language advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12149 They have done a wonderful job over the years and they have really grown the national language sales at OMNI.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12150 That would be the first group that we would go after, is the national language clients or national clients. That would be the first group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12151 The second group would be the retailers, both in Calgary and in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12152 Our guess would be that at the start we would probably be, I think I project, about 47 to 53 in terms of national‑to‑retail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12153 My feeling is that as we build this station, our retail probably will increase and go up a little more than the national. That just is the way it has worked at OMNI Ontario and it is probably the way it is going to work here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12154 The reason for that is on the national side, as Madeline has mentioned, we don't really have a clear measurement system. It is one of the big things we are trying to do. It is really difficult to go into ad agencies and say, "Look, there are 500,000 Chinese. You should really advertise." As a media buyer they are going to say, "Are they watching you?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 12155 So it is a real conceptual type of sell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12156 What we found in Ontario is on the retail side it is much easier to go in and say, "Look, you should buy a campaign with Chinese South Asian." They get it because they are in the market. They understand. And it is much easier for them to measure, as well, the success of a campaign.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12157 So we tend to do quite well on the retail side.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12158 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My question was, the specific third language groups. How much of your third language revenue will come from the Cantonese, from that kind of advertising in Cantonese, in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, Mandarin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12159 You have that right there? Good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12160 MR. DUNLOP: I do, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12161 We would project that in terms of Chinese, of our total revenue probably about 30 percent would come from Chinese, probably 30 percent would come from South Asian and the remainder would come from the other languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12162 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12163 You did not refer to repatriation, but Multivan did.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12164 Is this also in your plan, repatriation of viewing advertising from Spokane?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12165 MR. STRATI: I will ask Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12166 Repatriation is also competition in terms of competing against other programming options.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12167 Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12168 MR. DUNLOP: Certainly we would hope to have some simulcast opportunities with the Spokane television stations. We have not projected what sort of repatriation we may get from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12169 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12170 Now analog to digital. What is your digital transition plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12171 You referred to it, saying that you had one at 714(d) of the application. Can you give me some idea of the timing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12172 MR. STRATI: I will ask Kelly to answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12173 MR. COLASANTI: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12174 Our plan would be to get established first in the markets and then probably in year 2 or 3 migrate over to digital plan, as we did in Ontario with OMNI 1 and 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12175 COMMISSIONER CRAM: What would be the cost to upgrade to conform with Industry Canada's plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12176 MR. COLASANTI: The plan just to go to digital transmission?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12177 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12178 MR. COLASANTI: It is probably, per site, about $300,000 to $400,000 for transmitters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12179 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is that in your projections in this application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12180 MR. COLASANTI: Do you mean in capital?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12181 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12182 MR. COLASANTI: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12183 COMMISSIONER CRAM: No, okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12184 How much HD programming are you planning on having?
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12185 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Everybody is pointing fingers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12186 MR. ZANE: Well, it's always a very difficult question to answer because everybody has a different concept of what one means by HD exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12187 We currently produce our news programming in 16 by 9 digital and it's up‑converted to HD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12188 If we are talking about a full HD system in terms of production, we don't have any plans to do that yet, although Kelly has equipment that can be switched over to HD at any time. And that is in our plan as we go forward with conversions in Ontario and I'm sure as we purchase equipment for Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12189 As far as programming that is purchased already in HD formats, that is not my area. That might be more Malcolm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12190 MR. COLASANTI: It is our plan to build a plant that is HD ready. So once we migrate to the digital transmitters, then obviously we would migrate to producing all our local programming in HD, as well as it's always our plan to ‑‑ well, it will be at that time as well ‑‑ to purchase any programming available in HD as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12191 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12192 MR. STRATI: Commissioner Cram, if I may, some of our documentaries are produced in HD as well. We talked about "Once Upon A Time in Toronto", which is an episodic series and that is being produced in HD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12193 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12194 Have you ever considered the use of an alternate frequency?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12195 MR. STRATI: Yes. We have looked at ‑‑ there are competing frequencies, and Kelly can supplement it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12196 MR. COLASANTI: We have a couple of other frequencies that are available in both markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12197 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that would not impact your financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12198 MR. STRATI: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12199 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have one final question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12200 In your projections, where is your CTD? Is it all under program expenses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12201 MR. STRATI: No. If we look at the financial projections, it is in Section 4.1, which is the revenue and expenses total financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12202 If you look at each of the two sets of financials, one in Edmonton and one in Calgary ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12203 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12204 MR. STRATI: There is a line item below in non‑operating expenses, and it is highlighted as projects.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12205 There is an annual expenditure of $714,000, which is over the seven‑year period $5 million. And you see that in each of the two; that is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12206 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12207 Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12208 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12209 Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12210 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12211 I only have one question and you need not answer it tonight, but I would appreciate it if you would use your unique sources within your family of companies and answer it maybe tomorrow or the next time you are up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12212 I almost would prefer that unless you have a pat answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12213 There has been a strong intervention by Shaw Cable Company about carriage and how unfair it would be for them to have to, in these dying days of analog, to rejig things and trap things and do different things. Is there some better way?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12214 They put forward their own preferred solution, which was for anybody who is licensed here to waive their rights under the BDU Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12215 Some people have said they might, depending on how it worked out, or they might not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12216 It seems to me that you folks ‑‑ perhaps not the people at this table, which is why I'm quite happy to wait until a later phase ‑‑ do have access to a unique body of expertise in this particular issue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12217 So I would be grateful if you could come up with a solution or suggest one or a number of ones, and not just for yourself; say for three or four licensees in each town so that we are not giving away any inclinations. We don't have any right now anyway, so there is nothing to give away.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12218 But some solution that would fit the whole group, some pragmatic solution where everybody gives a little but it works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12219 As I say, I'm just happy to leave that with you tonight. Rogers' offices are in the 416 area code and maybe you could phone some of them and ask them what they know about that sort of thing and maybe give us some ideas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12220 Is that a feasible request?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12221 MR. STRATI: Absolutely, we are happy to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12222 There has been some pragmatism that has been exemplified already in recent years. Toronto is certainly one example and there have been some others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12223 So we would be glad to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12224 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I assume if four new licensees were licensed in Toronto, it might give you people, the cable side of your world, a challenge as to how you want to deal with it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12225 So if you could look at it in that spirit, I for one would be grateful to have a kind of pragmatic opinion on what sort of solutions are available there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12226 MR. STRATI: We would be glad to do so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12227 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is my full commentary at this point, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12229 Commissioner Cugini.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12230 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12231 Good afternoon or good evening soon. I have just one question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12232 Is it fair to assume that your financial projections reflect you being the only ones licensed in both Edmonton and Calgary of the applicants that are before us in these proceedings?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12233 MR. STRATI: I will ask Malcolm to give you further background on the projections for revenue in terms of other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12234 MR. DUNLOP: These revenue projections were based on only one applicant. If there was another applicant, if it were a religious television station, I don't think it would affect our numbers that greatly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12235 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: If we licensed CanWest's request, what impact would that have on your financial projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12236 MR. DUNLOP: That would have, I believe, a greater impact on our financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12237 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you have a way of quantifying that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12238 MR. DUNLOP: We can work on that, if you like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12239 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That would be great; thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12240 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Those are my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12241 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cugini.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12242 I have asked the same question to the previous two applicants. Are your applications severable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12243 MR. STRATI: In terms of looking at severability, we have established a model which has two local stations but has one schedule. So it has certainly some regional components to it in terms of being able to be established for a regional licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12244 The reason why we went for the two station approach is to be able to provide local programming and also to have local advertising in both markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12245 That was the element and the thought process, if you will, in terms of putting it together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12246 If you talk to people here locally, for example, if you talk about Fairchild, people will tell you it is a little bit like the Super Bowl. They like the ads. They like local ads. So they complain not only that Fairchild has local programming ‑‑ it doesn't have local programming, sorry ‑‑ it also doesn't have local ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12247 The model we have had two stations. In terms of severability, because we have local programming and regional programming but we have one schedule, there is a severability possibility for it. It is possible to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12248 That would not preclude any of the local service commitments, certainly the tangible benefits commitments in the application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12249 MR. MERSON: If I could just add, Mr. Vice‑Chair, we did contemplate another model, which was one originating station and one rebroadcast and ultimately felt that the desirability of having one station in each market was a better model to serve the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12250 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I am pushing the envelope a bit and I was to ask you if we were to grant you one licence in only one market, which one would be your first choice?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12251 MR. STRATI: I think in terms of the viability, we would prefer to have one station and the ability to have the retransmitter in the other market as well. That is a viability component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Say that the Commission in its wisdom ‑‑ Solomon makes the decision and he grants one licence in one market to Rogers and a licence to MultiVan in the other market, if you were asked to choose, which market would you prefer to go on?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12253 MR. STRATI: That is a difficult question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12254 THE CHAIRPERSON: For sure. That's why I'm asking it.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12255 MR. STRATI: I understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12256 If we had to pick a market, it may be based on economic viability. So maybe it would be Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12257 But certainly there is an interest there to serve both markets, both for the programming and the advertising. There is a lot of links and synergies between the communities which for the regional aspect of the station would work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12258 MR. MERSON: But it would be an entirely different business proposition. It would be very difficult. We would have to go back in, re‑figure out how the business might actually work. We might have to build a relationship with Multivan to ensure that we didn't duplicate each other's efforts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12259 So it would be an entirely different business proposition. Difficult to pick.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12260 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will then end up with a very different business plan than the one that you have filed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12261 MR. STRATI: One of the elements is the producer. For example, if we have a Spanish producer in Calgary, the Spanish community in Calgary is about 10,000 to 12,000. It is the same population in Edmonton. So if you combine them, if you pool the communities together, then you really have an economic base for the production of the programs, for the selling of the ads and sort of the viability of the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12262 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12263 I know that our legal counsel has one or two questions for you, and then you will have the opportunity to make your final conclusion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12264 MR. McCALLUM: If I may just very quickly, Commissioner Cram asked you a question about the Fairchild intervention and addressed the question of keeping programming separate from that which I think Fairchild offers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12265 In its intervention Fairchild calculated the Chinese language programming at 17.8 percent of your program schedule and suggested that you be capped at 17.8 percent Chinese programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12266 If the Commission wished to impose that cap as a condition of licence, aside from the response to the intervention which I read in which you made your arguments where that is not such a great idea, but if the Commission wished to do that, would that be an option for you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12267 MR. STRATI: In terms of the cap on the 17.8 percent on Chinese programming, we have a similar cap in Toronto. But the cap in Toronto is based on languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12268 So we would prefer to have a cap that was perhaps a bit higher or applicable to languages; so maybe a cap that was 17.8 or 18 percent per language, which is like the one we have in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12269 Certainly if it came down to it, we would agree to that COL.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12270 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12271 Also, can you for the record explain how you chose the languages of the survey that you did.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12272 You asked questions of the South Asian community and the Chinese community for the purpose of the survey, and you didn't include any other groups for the purposes of the survey.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12273 Could you explain your rationale for doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12274 MR. STRATI: I will be glad to. I will ask you Jane Armstrong to give you some feedback on it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12275 Sometimes it is about the ability to develop a large enough mass of respondents in terms of discussing these kinds of issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12276 Jane.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12277 MS ARMSTRONG: Yes, we did do a survey primarily with the Chinese and South Asian residents of Calgary and Edmonton. As Alain said, that was in some ways a practical decision so that we could collect sufficient numbers to base some conclusions on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12278 Also, I think the questioning of the Chinese and the South Asian communities, they are a proxy for the other communities that OMNI is interested in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12279 MR. McCALLUM: For example, you didn't choose the Germans or the Ukrainians, which I think are the largest groups in the two communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12280 I am curious why those groups were not chosen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12281 Second, would you say that what the Chinese and the South Asians said would be a proxy for what you think the Germans and the Ukrainians would have said?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12282 MR. STRATI: The proxy element would probably be more akin to perhaps the Vietnamese or Filipino communities or more recent immigrants, or those who have the same demographic similarities as the Chinese or South Asians; for example, things like mother tongue, home language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12283 You are talking about Ukrainian and German. The composition is much different, where Ukrainian is an established community for generations where the ethnic origin numbers are quite high but the home language and other numbers aren't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12284 This is the research we have done, the sort of quantitative research; a lot of discussions locally in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12285 There is a program in Toronto called "Contact Productions". It is a Ukrainian program in Toronto. It used to be carried here and in Edmonton as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12286 So we have had a lot of informal discussions as well with community leaders, with producers, associations, language associations in terms of SAHLA here in southern Alberta and IHLA in northern Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12287 We haven't had the quantitative research with the report but certainly we have had a lot of discussions and dialogue in terms of the need for programming, the opportunity for programming, the sustainability of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12288 MR. McCALLUM: Was it the informal discussions then that led you to choose the languages that you actually do propose for the two communities?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12289 MR. STRATI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12290 MR. McCALLUM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12292 Just before we get you to give your conclusion, to pick up on Ms Cugini's earlier question where you said that obviously depending who else we co‑license the situation will be different, I didn't ask the question, and I think as a matter of fairness: If the Commission were to grant licences to Multivan and to Rogers, what would be the impact on your business plan?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12293 MR. STRATI: The two in each market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12295 MR. STRATI: It's a business plan that makes it more difficult in terms of the costs for the programming. It's a more difficult proposition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12296 If we look, comparatively speaking, for multi‑faith applicants that are here, they are in a different format, different programming. So it would be difficult, for example, to sell to some of our producers, to established producers and sell with producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12297 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12298 Now you have your two minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12299 MR. STRATI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12300 Sometimes it is good. At our first meeting here in Calgary we came months ago, in November. We had an organization that was here in Calgary that was nice enough to invite us and to bring members of the community here in Calgary. It's INCAA, Indo Canadian Association of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12301 It was a usual night in November in Calgary and we expected about 30 to 35 people at INCAA. About 75 to 85 people came.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12302 What was astonishing to us was the diversity of people that were there, not only in terms of representations of different groups. Certainly we had Chinese, we had South Asian, but we also had Africans, Somalis, Ukrainians and Germans; a very strong diversity here in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12303 We saw in their eyes the need and the demand for programming. As we discussed the issues with them, we understood that they really wanted an ethnic broadcaster here locally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12304 We also talked to them specifically about some of our initiatives. We talked about our experience in ethnic broadcasting. We talked to them about the news component, both of our application but certainly of our experience in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12305 We talked to them about all of our initiatives in the industry, both in ethnic broadcasting and in the Canadian television industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12306 We talked to them about documentaries. They were really interested in documentaries. They were interested not only in their community programs, but when we talked about and highlighted specific documentaries, specific programs, they were very, very interested in OMNI Television.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12307 Certainly the cross‑cultural programs. A lot of community groups, a lot of community leaders are interested in cross‑cultural dialogue, a community across different communities that they can share their experiences, their successes and their concerns, their problems.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12308 There was also the social perspective. We talked about our English as a Second Language component, dealing and talking with linguistic associations, very, very interested.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12309 We talked about our initiative for the Canadian Ethnic Media Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12310 We talked about our $10 million fund and we had so many ‑‑ Paritosh was the most popular person at the event, because we had so many producers who had experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12311 There was a Spanish producer who had worked ESPN in New York on their Spanish language programming. He is here in Calgary and he wants to work in ethnic media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12312 Someone who used to be at Fairchild Radio who is no longer in ethnic media who wants to get back in ethnic media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12313 So it really is that opportunity to really tap into the communities, to serve them, but also to include them and to work together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12314 That is really where we see our benefit. It is about our programming approach. It is about our service orientation. It is about our years of experience in this industry and it really is about our opportunity to work locally with the communities and serve them on that basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12315 We think we have a vision. We want to bring to ethnic television something else. We have been here. We have been at it for 25 years. We started with news and public affairs. We want a national dialogue. We want the opportunity for people to see OMNI programming, to see OMNI news, to develop national newscasts and national dialogues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12316 It is about making the service component bigger.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Strati. Thank you very much to all of your team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12318 We will adjourn the hearing until 8:30 tomorrow morning.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1755, to resume
on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 at 0830 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1755, pour reprendre le mardi
13 février 2007 à 0830
REPORTERS
_____________________ _____________________
Doug Lebel Lynda Johansson
_____________________ _____________________
Sue Villeneuve Fiona Potvin
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