ARCHIVED -  Transcript

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.































HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


Delta Regina                          Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive               1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan                  Regina, Saskatchewan


November 3, 2006                      le 3 novembre 2006








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

                 Canadian Radio‑television and

                 Telecommunications Commission


              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

                 télécommunications canadiennes



                   Transcript / Transcription













Barbara Cram                      Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président, radiodiffusion

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère





Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience



HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Delta Regina                      Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive           1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan              Regina, Saskatchewan


November 3, 2006                  le 3 novembre 2006

                           - iv -




                                                 PAGE / PARA





629112 Saskatchewan Limited

Communications Management Inc.

Rawlco Radio Limited                             1563 / 7722


The Secret Santa Foundation                      1609 / 7930


Lisa Rendall                                     1616 / 7960


APTN, Jean LaRose

Amanda Nepper                                    1625 / 7998


Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre       1646 / 8075


Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation               1651 / 8117


Robert A. Merasty                                1671 / 8211


Joe Duquette High School                         1677 / 8244







Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.                1685 / 8276


Aboriginal Voices Radio (AVR)                    1687 / 8287


Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1692 / 8308


Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1697 / 8331


Standard Radio Inc.                              1698 / 8336


Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1700 / 8350


Newcap Inc.                                      1703 / 8363

                           - v -




                                                 PAGE / PARA





Aboriginal Voices Radio (AVR)                    1710 / 8394



         Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Friday, November 3, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le vendredi

    3 novembre 2006 à 0830

LISTNUM 95 \l 1 \s 77147714             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17715             Well, here it is, Gainer is not going just to sit in a seat.  He wants to be on the side ‑‑ he wants to be, you know, down on the floor, down there.  Now, it didn't help that one of our own players said he shouldn't go because he doesn't wear pants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17716             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17717             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17718             We are now ready to proceed to Phase III of the process in which other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17719             I would now call on the first three appearing interveners to appear as a panel.  Mr. Elmer Hildebrand as President of company 629112 Saskatchewan Limited ‑‑ and this is a correction from the agenda on which we indicated Golden West Broadcasting, Communications Management Inc., and Rawlco Radio Limited.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17720             You will have 20 minutes for the presentation.  I understand Ms Pamela Leyland for Rawlco Radio will be starting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17721             Please go ahead.


LISTNUM 95 \l 17722             MS LEYLAND:  Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17723             We're before you once again, this time to talk to you about Saskatoon.  My name is Pam Leyland, President of Rawlco Radio.  With me today are Gordon Rawlinson, CEO of Rawlco, Doug Pringle, Rawlco's Director of Programming, and some new members of our panel from Saskatoon.  Marianne Vibert is our Director of Promotions and Community Relations.  Marianne has been with us for 22 years and does an amazing job of connecting our stations to the community.  She's sitting behind me and to my right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17724             To Marianne's left is Jamie Wall who manages our Saskatoon stations.  Jamie started with us as an announcer then became Music Director, then Program Director, and now Manager.  Jamie has been with us for 17 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17725             Next to Jamie is Sandee Reed, the Sales Manager of News Talk 650 CKOM.  Sandee knows the business community in Saskatoon extremely well.  She's been with Rawlco for 19 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17726             Finally we have Kate Peardon, News Director of News Talk 650 CKON.  Kate is one of the stars of our news operation in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17727             Ken.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17728             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I'm Ken Goldstein, President of Communications Management Inc.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17729             MR. HILDEBRAND:  My name is Elmer Hildebrand, I'm the President of 629112 Saskatchewan Limited, operators of three radio stations in Saskatoon.  With me are to my right Vic Dubois, General Manager, long time resident of Saskatoon.  And to my left, Ken McFarlane, General Sales Manager for our radio stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17730             Pam.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17731             MS LEYLAND:  We're here to talk to you about Saskatoon, but before we begin it's Friday morning, you've had a really long week, and we have a little something to play for you.  It's a song about Saskatchewan, written and produced by a couple of our very creative staff in Saskatoon.  Please listen closely, I think you will get a kick out of the lyrics.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 95 \l 17732             MS LEYLAND:  Again, welcome to Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17733             Despite that low blow in the song about Gordon's handwriting, I do want to say a bit about the letters that were submitted as part of our intervention.  We asked our staff to go out into the community and talk to people they knew who were with community organizations and to local businesses who advertised on the stations.  There was no pressure,  there was no arm twisting.  We just wanted to know what they thought of another station possibly coming to Saskatoon.  We said if they had an opinion and they wanted to express it to the Commission to write a letter and say what they thought of the idea.  The bottom line is they said how they feel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17734             Community organizations and businesses have real concerns about another station coming to Saskatoon.  We told them we would help convey their message to the Commission so that their voices could play a part in the decision‑making process.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17735             We also wanted the people who listen to radio in Saskatoon to have a voice.  We had an independent research survey done to try and find out what they thought of radio in Saskatoon and whether they felt there was a need for an additional musical choice.  What they told us was that they liked the radio they have and they had no problem listening to the music they like.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17736             So we feel that as well as looking at economic indicators as criteria for determining if the city will benefit from another radio station, the feelings of the people, the listeners, should be considered.  It's the public, the listeners, who are the ones that will be affected by your decision.  What we have tried to do through our interventions in Regina and Saskatoon is to give them a chance to have a voice.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17737             MR. RAWLINSON:  You know, this is very different.  We'd never intervened against other applicants.  In my 35 years in radio I think this is the first time that we have done it.  Radio in Saskatchewan is still very good.  It's not big business.  My father used to say, put so much local information on the radio that people will be afraid to tune out because they might miss something.  You know, I'm as big a booster of Saskatoon and Saskatchewan as anyone.  I care about Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17738             Pam and her team really do run excellent full service radio stations, so why are expenses so high, because our service is very good and News Talk done very well, with a very high level of local, is very expensive.  In fact, right now there is a high level of service from both companies.  I just have a couple more comments.  In Saskatoon we think every potential advertiser is known and called on.  There are no hidden pockets of potential new money.  We really do cover all the bases and do an excellent job of sales.  My estimate would be that at least 80 percent of the advertisers for a new station will come from the existing six stations.  On this note, none of the applicants are proposing music that is really different and all of the listeners will come from the existing stations.  I can virtually guarantee there will be no increase in total tuning in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17739             We know how to do lean and mean radio, but I don't like it at all.  It takes away everything I like about radio.  It starts us down a slippery slope to juke box radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17740             So, Madam Chair, and members of the Commission, this is the most important thing that I want to leave you with.  No matter what you decide, Rawlco will continue to do its utmost to serve Saskatoon, and Regina for that matter, to the very best of our ability.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17741             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17742             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Madam Chair, and Commissioners, I have taken to heart your admonitions and fore‑brevity.  As we stated earlier in this hearing, there is one fundamental question that needs to be addressed.  Do the economic indicators tell us that the market is capable of supporting a new commercial radio station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17743             Based on the information summarized in our report, we believe that the economic indicators for the Saskatoon Radio market are not favourable to the licensing of any new commercial radio stations at this time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17744             I'm going to very briefly touch on the key indicators.  Population, the Conference Board is projecting that Saskatoon's population will grow by just two and a half percent over the five years from 2005 to 2010.  That is better than Regina, but still significantly lower than the comparable growth rate for Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17745             Second, GDP.  The Conference Board is predicting that the real GDP growth for Saskatoon in 2009 and 2010 will be half of what it was in 2005.  For Canada the real GDP growth rate is projected to be slightly higher in 2010 than it was in 2005.  By 2010 the real GDP growth rate for Saskatoon is projected to be about 20 percent lower than the growth rate for Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17746             Retail sales.  Using data for Saskatoon, again from the Conference Board we see that the growth rate for retail sales spiked in 2005 and is projected to be lower from 2008 to 2010.  And as I noted previously, the recent reduction of the provincial sales tax from 7 percent to 5 percent may have a modest, but short‑term effect.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17747             Fourth, radio revenues.  From 1996 to 2003 private radio revenues in Saskatoon grew more slowly than was the case for radio in Canada.  From 2003 to 2005, there was a brief growth spurt, however, based on the data for 2006 that we have seen, the growth spurt is over and private radio in Saskatoon, again, has a lower growth rate than radio across Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17748             And fifth and final, radio profitability.  And as noted in our report, pBIT levels in Saskatoon Radio are substantially lower than the Canadian average.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17749             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17750             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Madam Chair, Commissioners.  First of all, maybe some history on radio in Saskatoon would be in order.  Generally we all have relatively short memories, and the Commission changes, Commission staff changes, so the following may not be well‑known to today's Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17751             Only a few years ago the radio picture in Saskatoon was in a shambles.  One station was in bankruptcy and another station was floundering like a fish out of water creating havoc in the market by trying to sell ads for rates du jour.  Program changes done poorly were frequent and generally radio did not have a very good reputation in the city.  At that time you could not have ‑‑ you could not have garnered the great many letters of support that you have seen filed with the Commission for this hearing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17752             And I wonder, where were all the applicants you have heard from for the Saskatoon market at that time?  They could have purchased existing stations at the stress prices any time.  Part of the problem then was that the Commission of the day had issued a licence to someone who never ever worked at a radio station, but because he said, "It has always been my dream to have a radio station," he was granted licence.  His dream came true and a nightmare followed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17753             I ended up buying both of these two stations in Saskatoon and we have been able to bring to the city a degree of professionalism that has elevated the stature of radio dramatically.  As the Commission knows, all of this comes at tremendous cost and a lot of patience, and those of you that know me, I have a lot of patience.  However, any new station in Saskatoon will dramatically impact our financial wellbeing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17754             As the Commission knows, my group of stations in Saskatoon are currently incurring losses each year, so even though the stations are losing money, I don't like it, but I can sustain it for now, but larger losses would not be sustainable.  The majority of commercial radio stations in Saskatoon, both AM and FM, have suffered financial difficulties over the years, several times have had change of ownership, and all the stand‑alone radio stations have been bought and sold, they couldn't sustain themselves.  So Saskatoon is not and has not been a booming radio market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17755             We have maintained our service to the community at very high levels as is clearly demonstrated by all the letters that you have already seen.  To do full service radio requires a lot of creative writers, sales reps, producers, news people, announcers, promotion people, and on and on it goes.  You can do high cost full service radio or low marginal radio service.  And again, as the Commission knows, my choice is always to do full service radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17756             We have contributed one million dollars in Canadian talent development in our first licensed term at Magic, our newest FM station.  We have also maintained a full service at CJWW, our heritage AM station, and have maintained the only country music format on FM at Hot 93.  And we are playing 40 percent Cancon on all three stations.  And we're playing a lot of Saskatchewan produced music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17757             All three stations as a group complement very well the other radio stations in the market.  The existing Saskatoon Radio stations cover all the major formats and all age groups.  And, you know, no wonder every applicant is applying for a different format.  If there was an obvious hole in the market, several applicants would surely have applied for the same format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17758             The Commission also knows in Saskatoon that Rawlco is a fierce competitor, but we have managed to carve out an audience and an advertiser loyalty that enabled us to show annual modest sales growth until 2005, however, this growth stopped in 2006.  Our total sales in 2006 were lower than in 2005.  Much of the national business is disappearing.  The reason for this is described by Patrick Risson(ph), the President of CBS, in a letter to the Commission that national revenue in Saskatoon is down, and we would like to quote.  "The reason for this decline is due to the inelastic advertising budgets funding significant increase in demand and price in major markets, specifically Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto."  We have heard that Toronto radio billings are up 25 percent since 2003.  Much of that money comes from Saskatchewan.  As prices increase in Toronto, overall national budgets don't necessarily increase, so in order to satisfy those markets, Saskatoon, Regina budgets are decreased, not to mention other markets in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17759             We don't see this trend changing anytime soon.  Patrick Risson goes on to say, "Our most relevant and important comment on these proceedings is that the addition of new radio stations in Saskatoon will not result in any new national advertising becoming available.  The money already there will just be split between more stations."

LISTNUM 95 \l 17760             The other thing that we have heard a number of times at the hearing is that, you know, there are a lot of new businesses coming to Saskatoon.  Well, to some extent that may be true, some of the big box stores are arriving.  The Home Depots, Wal‑Marts and Costcos, however, interestingly they don't spend any money on national advertising, and generally don't even spend local advertising money.  What they do do, they drive out of business altogether some of the smaller businesses that we normally would do business with.  So that means that our local revenues will also not go up because of big box stores.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17761             So to recap, we project continuing small losses for the next few years under current conditions.  I can sustain these losses and can commit to the Commission that no reduction in service is going to take place under the current landscape, and we will continue to make Canadian Talent Development contributions.  This, however, would change dramatically if the Commission were to license any new stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17762             Upon the appearance of a new applicant, the following would likely develop.  Rates would be cut and this would reduce our overall revenue going forward.  We would be forced to spend considerably more on promotion.  Our operating cost would increase due to the poaching of staff.  Available national money would be split further resulting in even greater reductions in revenue.  All of this will add up to dramatic increase in losses in my stations in Saskatoon, and if this happens we will have to reduce overall community service, delay planned upgrading of equipment and facilities.  The unintended consequences would see the City of Saskatoon getting a much more watered down radio service.  Right now the city is one of the best served in Canada.  This will be in jeopardy if the Commission renews any ‑‑ or issues any new licences prematurely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17763             And we all have to remember Saskatchewan is not a growing province.  It is a province with a declining population.  Much as we would like to see it otherwise, we don't see it changing anytime soon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17764             Right now we have 13 radio stations in the city, six commercial stations, two CBC English, two CBC French, a community station, a religious station, and one Aboriginal repeater station.  With all that choice and all the choice on the Internet, iPod, CD, satellite, and so on, the public is not demanding more radio, and yet in a province of less than one million people, there are 33 commercial stations in Saskatchewan.  At that rate Calgary alone should have about 33 commercial stations, so I can see already that many of the applicants will want to reapply in Calgary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17765             I find it amazing that in 1940 Saskatchewan was larger than Alberta and B.C.  We were the third most populated province in the country, and yet studies have stated that by 2030 there will actually be fewer people than there are now in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17766             So adding an additional station comes at a cost.  It will increase the costs of my stations, reduce our audiences and reduce our revenue.  Over time this has to impact the level of service we can provide.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17767             The question that needs to be asked, I guess, does the benefit of a little increased musical diversity outweigh the cost of reduced service in a smaller city like Saskatoon.  When I envision Saskatoon with a new seventh commercial radio station, I can't think of one thing that the city would be better for.  Overlicensing is therefore a real concern as it relates to Saskatoon, and overlicensing is something that I've talked to the Commission about before.  And that really concludes my intervention, and we'll be happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17768             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17770             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17771             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17772             Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17773             Mr. Hildebrand, I was following your notes, actually you've amplified, considerably, your written intervention, and I thank you for that.  So I don't have too many questions, but let me just be sure I heard you correctly.  In going through the lists of ‑‑ your list of what might happen if we were to license in Saskatoon, you used the word prematurely, and that would seem to mean to me that there might be a point where it would not be a case of overlicensing, but appropriate.  As you know, we've been discussing what issues the Commission should look at in making that assessment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17774             I think you went through quite a few in your comments this morning, but could you just take us back to perhaps what you consider to be the most important areas we should look at when it wouldn't be premature?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17775             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, I think we've heard a fair bit in the last week, a variety of very rosy projections and rosy futures.  And for those of us who have been working in Saskatchewan for a long time, we've heard those often.  Every few years there is projections and predictions that you will take Saskatchewan through ‑‑ up to the moon, but, you know, that hasn't happened.  And so my premise would be that if all of those rosy productions that we've heard over the last week, you know, actually come about, then there would be no reason in four or five years that we could look at this again, and, you know, if, in fact, the City of Saskatoon becomes a city of 250,000 in the next few years, well, then dynamics would change.  But, you know, our history in the province has always been sort of slow and steady, slow and steady, but at the end of the day always a little lower.  And every year we seem to lose a few people, and especially in our younger demos, they move to Alberta or other places, and so we have, you know, a province that is very proud, we have a lot of people that are true blue Saskatchewanites and will support the province to their dying breath, but that doesn't give us the number of people, and as Ken Goldstein talked about the other day, even though there may be a few more people in Saskatoon this year than last year, mostly they moved from their farms in the surrounding areas.  It doesn't provide any more ears in the entire greater region.  And so that's what our biggest concern is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17776             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I take that point, and I think you have itemized for us some of your concerns.  I heard also you used the term, it's not wise when the only gain would be a little more music diversity.  But surely we're looking at other, as you know, in our looking at our criteria for licensing other kinds of diversity.  What's your sense of the balance, though, in different voices, different editorial voices, different ownership, and is it not ‑‑ isn't it more than just a question of a little bit of music diversity?  Aren't there other more as important diversity points to be raised when we're looking at licensing or not?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17777             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, surely they could be looked at, but we have Global television here, we have CTV television, very strong newspaper.  We have four ‑‑ or two CBC radio stations, plus a community channel.  So there is a lot of diversity.  We also have some newspaper publications that are free delivery, so there is additional publications in the area that provide diversity as far as news and information.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17778             My premise is that the City of Saskatoon is very, very adequately served from all of those aspects.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17779             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would your opinion be the same in terms of the Commission licensing a service or services such as the MBC or AVR or Touch or the other kinds of services that are before us?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17780             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17781             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Difficult perhaps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17782             MR. HILDEBRAND:  You know, I think it's difficult ‑‑ from what I was hearing on the Touch application, for example, and I appreciate the kind of music that they would be providing to a minority audience, but I found it interesting that when you're asking them about news, they were proposing to maybe hire news people once they had some more money.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17783             My premise is that in radio you have to have the news people before you get the audience.  So if you're not hiring news people right on the hop, I mean, you will never get the audience.  So news and information is an important part of the radio cycle, and from my perspective in the business, we spend a lot of money on those things up front with the knowledge that if we do it really well, we won't get the audience down the road.  And so we're investing money now to get some money back later.  And I found it odd that applicants would be saying, well, we'll add some news people later when we, you know, get our feet on the ground, and I think that's sort of not quite the way the radio works.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17784             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17785             Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17786             MR. RAWLINSON:  Excuse me, can I just jump in?  I know you were asking Mr. Hildebrand, but I just want to clarify our company's position.  We have no objection to licensing AVR or Missinipi in Regina, even though you're not talking about Regina, they're already here in Saskatoon and we're okay with Touch Broadcasting too, we don't object to those.  Our intervention is not against those applicants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17787             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam chair.  Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17788             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17789             Vice‑chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17790             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17791             Mr. Goldstein, you have been doing marketing ‑‑ not marketing, but market studies for other applicants over the years, and obviously one of the formula that has been looked at is one based on the retail sales.  Numerous applicants that we have heard yesterday were using a retail sales base formula to arrive at a given figure of market capacity.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17792             Based on your own experience, what is the market capacity ‑‑ advertising capacity of Saskatoon?  We have heard a lot of numbers yesterday, starting from 16 million up to 23 million available dollars for radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17793             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I need some guidance from the Commission on this because I know the real number.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17794             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But you know also the retail sales for Saskatoon and you know the formula.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17795             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I wouldn't reduce it exactly to a formula.  There will be, obviously over time, linkages between retail sales and the advertising revenues, but they will change.  Mr. Hildebrand pointed out quite correctly why they might change as a big box store might take the place of a smaller merchant who would have bought locally, and now the big box store either doesn't use radio or uses it in a different way, and then you're into the whole national business.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17796             I get nervous about saying there's an automatic percentage of this or there's an automatic percentage of that, but the figure that I have for advertising revenue in Saskatoon is the same figure you have, and it would be up to the people sitting to my left whether they want that on the public record or not.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17797             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm not looking to have actual numbers, because as you said I have numbers and we also learned yesterday that CJVR is also selling in Saskatoon and they have provided us with their sales that comes out of Saskatoon, which increases a bit the availability of money for radio in that market.  What I'm trying to see, and based on your own expertise, is that we have been presented with a fork, as I said, that goes from 16 million dollars towards 23 million dollars, and they all came and said that they were using a formula.  Now, since you ‑‑ it's your feel of expertise to do market study, so that's why I'm asking you, based on your own expertise, have you done the math to see where normally Saskatoon shall be ‑‑ advertising capacity shall be?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17798             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I think you're correct, there were estimates ranging from 16 to 23 million, and none of the estimates were correct, which says something about formulas.  I think that you have to try to find the real numbers if you can, and some were too low, some were too high from that estimating routine that they did.  When you talk about the capacity in the market, I think in some cases I heard people saying, here is a number and that's the capacity and there is some money left over.  The fact is is that the sales in the market are the sales in the market.  And so if you have a sales figure, I'm not sure how you can say there is money left over from the sales figure.  I didn't understand that logic by some of the applicants who were saying we think that the stations are getting this much and we'll take this much of that and then simultaneously say, but we won't take it from them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17799             Well, I'm not sure how they can take what's actually in the market without it coming from the people who are in the market, so it's not as if there is a capacity in the market of X and the current stations are only getting 82 percent of X, and somehow there is something left over.  The market is what the market is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17800             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Could I jump in also with a comment?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17801             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17802             MR. HILDEBRAND:  You know, too often we hear that there are formulas for this, and it has been my experience over the years that there are no formulas.  Radio is built by one listener at a time, and the advertising business is developed one advertiser at a time.  This is a huge painstakingly slow job, and, for example, we have heard that the retail sales growth in Saskatoon has been growing to whatever numbers you have heard this last week, yet the correlation is that national revenue in Saskatoon has gone down.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17803             Obviously just saying that these things work on formulas isn't a fact, and so I have often heard applicants say, you know, there is so much retail sales and automatically there is so much advertising revenue.  In my experience, advertising revenue is never automatic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17804             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  We've also heard yesterday some applicants saying that, well, that they have visited retailers in the market, some will say, that are probably currently advertisers, and will be delighted to pay this and go with a third ‑‑ a third party, but some others, and that's what we heard, claim that they were not using radio at all, but will use the radio because the format they were proposing was more catering towards their clientele ‑‑ leading ‑‑ what it's telling us, even if you have ‑‑ come up, both of you, with support letters from your client that they are still ‑‑ there is still a certain number of retailer that either have money not spent or ‑‑ or have not yet been sought by ‑‑ by your reps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17805             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think that will always be the case.  You can always find somebody that, you know, says, well, sure, I can do this or I can do that.  To some extent that may be a little like consultants.  You can hire consultants and they will tell you exactly what you want to hear, and then you can hire them again and they will tell you something else.  I mean, they don't mind because they're just happy to get the fee.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17806             You know, so at the end of the day in our business, you know, it's just like when people come with an application saying from a business, you know, I will buy advertising on this station if they go on the air.  Well, I've seen many of those over the years, and when the station is on the air these folks aren't buying advertising because the advertising has to do something for the client.  The client has to be convinced that this is a good deal and that he will get some results, otherwise they're not buying.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17807             MR. RAWLINSON:  Madam Chair, can I just comment?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17808             I heard a number of applicants say they'd talked to people and then they're telling you the stories of what they'd heard, but there was actually very few letters written by clients saying, yes, they would like to buy additional advertising, whereas between the letters filed by our company and by Mr. Hildebrand's company there was over a couple hundred of letters talking about ‑‑ of clients talking about that they're happy, they don't want more radio stations, it makes it more difficult to buy, their advertising might become less effective, et cetera, et cetera.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17809             If you want to look at the hard evidence, the stuff that has been provided to you in writing, there is some conflicting evidence, but the ‑‑ I would say that the evidence supporting what we're saying is overwhelming compared to what's been filed with you on the other position as far as, you know, people actually ‑‑ where you have got ‑‑ you have heard directly from them as opposed to somebody saying, I talked to somebody.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17810             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much for your concern.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17812             Commissioner Cugina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17813             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17814             Ms Leyland, I have a question for you.  Earlier this week when I asked you what were some of the factors you looked at when deciding to enter a new market?  One of the things you said, in fact, the first thing you said was musical diversity.  Again, earlier this week CJVR said that 22 percent of the Saskatoon population tunes in to out‑of‑market stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17815             My question is, how much weight should we give to the fact that more than one in five people in Saskatoon can't find, seeming, what they are looking for from Saskatoon Radio stations?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17816             MS LEYLAND:  First of all, that was the first time that I'd heard that piece of information, and I found it hard to believe, frankly, just from my experience working in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17817             MR. RAWLINSON:  Can I jump in, because ‑‑ can I give you the actual statistics?  I don't know where they got that figure, but 94.4 percent of the tuning in Saskatoon is to local radio stations, and that's just counting the six private stations and CBC and the community station.  It's probably higher than that if you add up, you know, the ‑‑ there is a couple of other stations that could be considered in there, but that's what it is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17818             If they say there is 20 some percent, maybe they're talking about weekly reach that occasionally somebody tunes in to an out‑of‑market radio station, but the fact is the share of hours tuned is approximately 95 percent to local stations.  So they were giving you incorrect information.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17819             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Just so we have an apples to apples comparison, then, Mr. Rawlinson, what is the source of your information?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17820             MR. RAWLINSON:  This is BBM, the spring ‑‑ Spring 2006 BBM.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17821             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17822             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Excuse me, if I might add something, I think I can clarify what was done there, I read their research.  They asked people to say what stations do you ever listen to, just for a minute or two minutes or whatever, and they got a figure of 20.6 percent in Regina and 21.6 percent in Saskatoon for people who might have tried a station on the Internet or tried a station somewhere, but that was out of a total of over 200 percent because people could answer more than one and they did not ask the people how long they spent with those stations, you know.  We have all had the experience of occasionally flicking around and saying, oh, what can I get here, what can I get there?  That doesn't mean you actually spent a lot of time with it, so they've essentially confused, I guess you might say, a reach figure and a tuning figure, and that isn't representative of tuning at all.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17823             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17824             I'm sure our able staff will be able to ‑‑ now that we have, like I say, an apples to apples comparison.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17825             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17826             MR. RAWLINSON:  And the figure I quoted was 12 plus.  That was all people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17827             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17828             Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17829             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I think for the benefit of everybody, and I think that will confirm what Mr. Rawlinson just said, the out‑of‑market tuning is seven percent altogether, and I'm using your BBM Fall, 2005.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17830             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17831             Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17832             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Good morning, panelists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17833             Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand, how do you reconcile your comments of this morning that you think the Saskatoon market could absorb AVR and Touch Canada Broadcasting given that you state all Saskatoon advertisers have been served?  Where do you expect Touch Canada Broadcasting will find its estimated 11 million in sales over its licence term, and even in year one, almost 700,000 of local advertising?  If everyone has been served, where is this money coming from?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17834             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, I should perhaps answer that because I'm not sure if Mr. Hildebrand said that he was okay with Touch coming in.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17835             They're just so ‑‑ it's a specialty format, number one.  They're ‑‑ I believe that their promise is something like 90 percent to be religious programming, if I'm not ‑‑ which is category 3.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17836             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Gospel music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17837             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.  And that's just ‑‑ quite frankly we just ‑‑ we think of them in the commercial world as something that is very different.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17838             And so other than that, I don't know how to reconcile it, there just doesn't seem to be ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17839             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  There is only a certain amount of money in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17840             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think ‑‑ I think also a good percentage of their revenue was projected to be brokered programming, which would be coming from out of the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17841             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17842             Another question, and this one for sure will be for both Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand.  Please clarify if we should consider your Saskatoon broadcasting application seriously given your evidence this morning on the state of the Saskatoon Radio marketplace.  I heard you say various ones that you could support, perhaps AVR perhaps coming, perhaps Touch Broadcasting, and you talked a bit about the Regina market.  But I'm going to stay in the Saskatoon market, but I didn't hear mention of the Saskatoon broadcasting application, which is the reason for my question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17843             MR. RAWLINSON:  I'll jump in and start.  As we said yesterday, our first preference is no commercial licence, but we came up with the idea for Saskatoon Radio broadcasting and have presented it to you because we feel if the Commission feels there is a need for a radio station that that's clearly the radio station that we think the community needs.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17844             And while that would impact on us from the amount of money that we would have to contribute and the amount of time we would have to contribute and the impact on the advertising revenues, we look at it as an ‑‑ or I look at it as a ‑‑ just the right thing to do for the community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17845             It would have a financial impact, but I guess I wouldn't mind that as much as I would anybody else because in this ‑‑ in Saskatoon Radio broadcasting I think there would be a lot of good done for the community, so I wouldn't mind the financial hit there as much as I would just if some other commercial operator comes in, then there is just ‑‑ to me there's more lost than there is gained.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17846             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think my comments are along the lines of what I made yesterday and early this morning.  I view all of the stuff that I do in this industry on a long‑term basis, and I think that given the increase in the Aboriginal community in Saskatoon, in the long term this would be a good thing for the community.  And as such, we can support it.  So I don't know if there is anything else that I can add.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17847             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I just needed little clarification based upon this morning's presentation.  That's my question, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17848             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17849             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17850             I have a few questions.  Mr. Hildebrand, you were saying that national revenue has gone down.  Our highly confidential statistics show otherwise up to 2005.  Are you saying that in '06 they have gone down?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17851             MR. HILDEBRAND:  That's right.  There was a market decrease in 2006, which was outlined by Patrick Gurison(ph) as well.  And so the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17852             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you give us a percentage reduction?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17853             MR. HILDEBRAND:  The percentage is in the range of 15 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17854             MR. RAWLINSON:  And we experienced the same percentage decline this year that just finished, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17855             THE CHAIRPERSON:  '06, August '06.  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17856             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And I might add that already we're in the new year going forward and we see this erosion continuing, and to some extent it is a little alarming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17857             MR. RAWLINSON:  For the first two months of this year, September and October, again, that's the same thing we're having a 15 percent decline in our national advertising.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17858             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's 15 percent of the already 15 percent reduced amount?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17859             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, no it's comparing September, October of '05 with September, October '06.  That's down 15 percent, so the trend that happened last year is continuing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17860             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is continuing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17861             MR. RAWLINSON:  Actually if my memory serves me right, the decline in national advertising started happening during the year and it just kind of fell off the map.  It was weird, but it wasn't ‑‑ it was not a particularly bad fall a year ago, it was kind of ‑‑ it wasn't growing, but it was kind of in that range and then all of a sudden, boom, it just fell apart.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17862             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yeah, it just flies in the face of overall national advertising in Canada seems to be going the other direction.  So these are some of the anomalies as it relates to Saskatchewan.  Saskatchewan, many times, you know, isn't on anybody's radar screen in Toronto, and we have to work really hard to get agencies to even realize that there is a Saskatchewan.  And so once we've got them to realize that, then we have to try and actually get some of the budget.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17863             So many times Saskatchewan nationally will only get attention if there is something really bad happening in Saskatchewan.  Gainer is getting more promotion across Canada than any of the good stories that have happened in Saskatchewan in the last year.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17864             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Government advertising, Crown Corporation advertising, how much of ‑‑ maybe if you could file it confidentially, how much of that comprises as the total percentage of your total advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17865             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yeah, we'd be happy to do that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17866             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, okay.  I can tell you ‑‑ actually last year was a reasonably good year for Government advertising, Provincial Government advertising, but for some reason again this fall it has fallen off.  And yet, as we seem to be getting closer and closer to an election you would think ‑‑ you know, it normally picks up and it had picked up, and we thought, oh, boy, you know, the '07 year should be a great year for Government advertising and it's been quite poor this fall.  So I don't know, it's hard to predict, but ‑‑ so you want percentage of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17867             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of your gross revenues.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17868             MR. RAWLINSON:  Of our gross revenues comes from Government advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17869             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and Crown Corps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17870             MR. RAWLINSON:  And Crown Corps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17871             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Have you considered that being local advertising or national advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17872             MR. RAWLINSON:  We consider that to be local.  At least that's how we treat it.  I don't know how ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17873             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yes, we do.  We treat it as local as well, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17874             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So you treat it as local?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17875             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17876             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I wanted to go, Mr. Goldstein, predictions are wonderful, but when we were talking last time we were talking about the difference in population in Regina since the last licensing.  And in Saskatoon the last licensing was 2000.  Did you ever check into what the population was then?  He has to change glasses to find that out.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17877             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I didn't check it, but I think the difference would be probably about 4,000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In population?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17879             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17880             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think if I could get you to do a little homework and provide us with the population since I think the licensing ‑‑ the hearing was in '99, so since 2000.  The increase in population, the increase in GDP, the increase in retail sales since that time, just so we can have ‑‑ like, it's just history is ‑‑ I always consider it a better predicator than gazing into a crystal ball.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17881             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you can do that?  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17883             Now, I'm intrigued by ‑‑ and I don't know if you've seen it, Mr. Goldstein, the Newcap document called some market comparisons.  And I must say it looks to me like the stars are coalescing.  In general it looks like somewhere between well, I'm going to say around 20,000 is the number of persons per station in the six other markets.  The average household income looks ‑‑ well, it's an average of 57,000.  And the retail sales per station is 278.  And based on all of that, Regina and Saskatoon are, I know we're special, but, I mean, it doesn't seem to me to make logical sense.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17884             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, we discussed a little bit the other day this business about the average number of people per station.  And in our report I dismissed that as a simplistic exercise because, of course, if you take different markets you can prove something else.  But, in fact, I think the most important thing to say about that, and I can, by the way, give you a very long and involved statistical exercise, but I'm not going to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17885             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please, please, keep it in normal language for us laymen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17886             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.  It's not going to be a statistical argument, it's going to be a bit of a philosophical argument.  Madam Chair, you yourself, over the last couple of days, have been questioning applicants on the degree to which they understood the difference between Regina and Saskatoon.  And I ‑‑ and there were a variety of responses.  Some were, in fact, saying, oh, they're very much the same and we can do the same thing in one, we can do the same thing in the other.  And I think you challenged that, and I agree with you, I think they are different.  But if there are differences between Regina and Saskatoon and unique characteristics about Regina and unique characteristics about Saskatoon, how can you then use Moncton or St. John as a proxy?  How can you use Muncton and St. John, New Brunswick as a proxy for Regina and Saskatoon?  It just doesn't make any sense.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17887             The markets are what they are.  We should be looking at the fact that the markets have achieved not at high profit levels, but a certain equilibrium here, and other markets are there, and we should be looking at what one might to that equilibrium if one licensed a new station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17888             So if the average number of people per station in another market is a certain number, does that mean we're importing the model from that market into Regina and Saskatoon?  Does that mean we're going to put the number of employees per station, which is lower?  Does that mean we're going to bring in the spending on programming, which is lower?  Does that mean we're going to bring in the revenues which might also be lower?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17889             So, I mean, I found it interesting to hear some applicants say that the per capita levels per station or the per capita levels of radio advertising in Saskatchewan were higher given the number of stations, therefore let's now go bring in the number of stations from another market where the per capita levels are lower.  I mean, you can't just cherry pick these statistics and say, well, we can mimic Muncton for numbers of stations and population, but somehow that will have no effect on the program spending, that will have no effect on the revenues, I would rather deal with Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17890             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Goldstein, though, the differences between the markets that I was referring to was social differences, and surely radio can be responsive to that and, in fact, I think, you know, radio has huge power to change feelings and thoughts about social issues.  That doesn't impact ‑‑ it appears to me that we should be looking, if we're going to use something like this, we should be looking at a place that has a similar economic ‑‑ well,  similar in economics, and if I do that, one would use, I guess, the conference for diversity factors also in that.  And Saskatoon has, what is it, 93 diversity?  Probably the second highest in Canada.  Is it the second highest?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17891             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I'm not sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17892             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think Winnipeg is 95, so it's right up there.  If we tried to do a matrix including diversity factors and the, what am I going to say, economic output, the GDP, and put some of these other issues in, would that give us another way of comparing a proxy?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17893             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I think the two most important things to use are going to be population and retail sales.  I mean, if you're looking for the two most important indicators, the number of indicators are, of course, sub‑indexes of other indicators.  GDP is connected to personal income, is connected to retail sales, I mean, you have to have the GDP to have the income.  You have to have the income to have the sales.  At some point you max out your credit card, so you do have to have the income to have the sales.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17894             So I think I would start with population and retail sales.  I think that I would avoid the headline of the day approach.  You know, 50 new housing starts today, let's licence a new radio station.  450 jobs lost, let's take one away.  I mean, you know, you can't quite do that, and I think, though, that within the use of indicators of this nature, we should be looking at three important things.  And I made some notes for myself and I think maybe it's important to put this on the record, about how one should use these indicators.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17895             First of all, the data has to come from a reliable source, and that means we should be using Statistics Canada wherever possible for historical data.  And if we can't find Statistics Canada data because we're looking at projections or we're looking at markets where Stats Canada doesn't produce data on a regular basis, we should be using sources that do regular updates.  We should be using sources that revise past data.  One of the places some of the people in this process got into a little trouble is they used the source that doesn't revise past data.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17896             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that FP?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17897             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.  So they come out once a year with a long lead time, and so if they're two percent low in one year and don't revise it, and two percent high in the next year, all of a sudden you're looking like a big increase, which really isn't there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17898             So first, reliable data.  Secondly, consider the data over a long period of time.  Go back at least ten years and go forward at least five years.  And projections aren't perfect, but they do at least reflect the consensus of demographics and economics.  And don't be driven by short‑term blips.  And the third point is, don't just consider absolute growth rates.  Look at relative growth rates.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17899             Yes, Regina is growing a little, and yes, Saskatoon is growing slightly more than Regina, but both are still growing a lot more slowly than a lot of other places and that is one of the roots of the things we have just been discussing about national advertising and the shift.  And indeed, as you get the big box stores, perhaps elbowing out some local merchants, that might get exacerbated.  So those would be the indicators with those three caveats attached.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what if I put into the matrix of, you know, another indicators where the incumbents were privately held or publicly held.  Would that be relevant?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17901             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I think it might be.  I think the privately held incumbent might be less driven by the next quarterly results, and might have a longer view.  And you have two very good privately held companies sitting right here who could probably answer that as well, but I think that would be a consideration, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17902             MR. RAWLINSON:  Madam Chair, I'd like to throw one other thing into your matrix, and that is the quality of the radio stations that are in the market, and what are they doing?  I would wonder whether some of these markets they're using have a News Talk station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17903             And the, you know, we filed many letters, we've got, you know, a lot of evidence on the file about the tremendous benefits that having News Talk stations brings to a community.  It's not just the extra news, it's the, you know, when, you know, the RCMP officer was killed, the ‑‑ carrying the funeral live to the province, I mean, there was just a bunch of things.  And there was an election the other night and I think we had 16 people covering the civic election in Saskatoon, as an example.  I mean, you just don't get that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17904             And the other thing is, is the full service AM stations that are CKRM or CJWW.  Those stations also have big news departments and also carry a lot of local information.  It isn't just the News Talk stations.  And, you know, they haven't been ‑‑ become a shadow of their former selves the way many AM stations have.  Those are still vibrant full service radio stations, and that costs money.  And so I just think those are, you know, the ‑‑ so I think all of those things should be taken into your matrix too.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17905             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hildebrand, you were talking about, we get a new entrant and the rates will go down, we have to promote more, our staff would be poached.  That would happen except for maybe the last ‑‑ well, no, that may not be true, if Saskatoon broadcasting were licensed also.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17906             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Not in the same way because we would actually be mentoring and training the employees for the new operators.  It would be quite different than if, you know, a public company comes into the market and decides to just ‑‑ you buy the talent no matter what, and so I think it is a big difference from that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17907             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't think the trust wouldn't try to poach Mr. Brass?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17908             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, maybe Mr. Brass would ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17909             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I mean, you've got good some trustees there, and I can't see them, you know, well, I mean ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17910             MR. HILDEBRAND:  But in real terms, we will be developing more Aboriginal employees there and it will be a totally different picture than, as I say, if a public company comes into the market and decides to sort of just, you know, swoop through and see whatever they can pick off.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17911             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But, like, once they're up and running, you and I would expect them to compete as best they could.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17912             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Truly.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17913             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And my thoughts would be, they would be out there with the advertisers and they might be cutting rates for a while.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17914             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And in all likelihood then we all have to do that to match it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17915             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, and then would you have to promote too because they would be there?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17916             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And so then you're sort of on a downhill spiral that at the end of the day doesn't provide good radio.  I mean, we just have to go back six or seven years to what we had in Saskatoon.  I mean, we didn't have six good radio stations.  We had two or three good ones and some real dogs, and so the whole process, you know, has been fixed up and I keep coming back to the fact that Saskatoon may have the best radio service of communities anywhere in the Prairies because it has six distinct formats, it has a full service radio, it has  community involvement, you know, second to none and we have a commitment to do that for our audience.  And my personal commitment is that's what I do in broadcasting, I do it for the long run, not for the short run.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17917             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the trustees of Saskatoon Radio who presented it were proposing a format that appeals to youth.  Is that the format that would hurt your companies the least?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17918             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Probably would hurt our company the least, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17919             MR. RAWLINSON:  And I think as I said yesterday, it will hurt us more than it will hurt Mr. Hildebrand's operation.  But if I could just reiterate what I said just a few minutes ago, it seems to me that that's ‑‑ if that operation gets a licence and we do take a hit, that's a hit that, quite frankly, from a financial point of view we can afford and I wouldn't feel ‑‑ I mean, at least it's going ‑‑ it would be for a tremendous benefit to the community.  I don't see their ‑‑ it could be argued is the benefit to the community greater than the impact it will have on us as an operator, and that could be debated which way it goes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17920             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So Mr. Rawlinson, though, does this format impact you the least compared to all the other formats proposed?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17921             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17923             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17924             THE SECRETARY:  We would now call on the next appearing intervener for the record.  I would like to indicate the following interveners will not be appearing.  Those are CIRPA, Paul Martin Communications, Neil Meckelborg, and Jason Moffat.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17925             Therefore, I would call on the next appearing intervener, The Secret Santa Foundation to come forward for their presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 17926             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary, this is the Santa Foundation?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17927             THE SECRETARY:  Yes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 17928             THE SECRETARY:  Before you proceed with your presentation, if you could identify yourself.  You could turn on the microphone, introduce yourself, and then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17929             Please go ahead.


LISTNUM 95 \l 17930             MS WEYMAN:  Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17931             Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about the CJWW, Denny Carr, Secret Santa Foundation and what it means to needy families in Saskatoon at Christmas.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17932             My name is Mercedes Weyman and I am the Executive Director of the Secret Santa Foundation.  Seated beside me on the left is Jim McRory, one of our volunteer board members, and to my right is the Chairman of the Secret Santa Board and General Manager of CJWW radio, Vic Dubois.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17933             Please bear with me as I tell you about the history of Secret Santa.  Secret Santa was initially formed 20 years ago in the mid 1980s.  Long time CFQC 600 AM radio morning man, Denny Carr, approached the Salvation Army staff in Saskatoon to ask how the radio station could assist the needy during the Christmas season.  Their request was for toys and Secret Santa was born with a mandate to see to it that no child in Saskatoon would go without a new unwrapped toy on Christmas day.  Denny Carr continued to be the driving force behind Secret Santa each year directing a team of volunteer elves led by myself.  As to how I first became involved, my late husband was another long time radio news man with CFQC.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17934             MR. McRORY:  In 1994 the radio station was purchased by the company that owned CJWW radio in Saskatoon.  CFQC then became an FM station and Denny Carr continued his career as a co‑host on the morning show on CJWW, which now occupied the 600 dial position.  CJWW General Manager, Vic Dubois, wholeheartedly took on the task of supporting Denny's Secret Santa with whatever air time, money, and staff resources that were required.  Of course it goes without saying that CJWW already had an excellent track record of involvement with many charitable organizations and events before Secret Santa came along.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17935             MS WEYMAN:  In 1998, Denny Carr was diagnosed with cancer and sadly passed away in 1999 after being a fixture on the morning airwaves in Saskatoon for more than 30 years.  As a side note, my husband, Easton Weyman, had also contracted cancer and passed away two years earlier in 1997.  Both his and Denny's pictures, with the caption, "In memory of our friends," are on the wall to this day in CJWW's reception area.  This is a radio company that cares.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17936             The challenge in 1999 was what was going to happen to Secret Santa now that its founder and guiding leader was gone.  I was asked to attend a meeting with Vic Dubois, along with both CJWW's promotions and community relations directors.  The purpose of the meeting; to discuss the future of Secret Santa.  Would we carry on somehow without Denny at the helm or simply dissolve the organization.  And to compound events, the Salvation Army in Toronto decided to not continue releasing income tax receipts, which made things more difficult for donors.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17937             MR. McRORY:  The decision came easily that Secret Santa was far too important to just let it fade away into oblivion.  CJWW would take on the task of seeing to it that Denny Carr's legacy lived on and with the help of CJWW's outside legal and accounting firms, the result was the formation of the CJWW Denny Carr Secret Santa Foundation, a Federally registered charity with the ability to issue tax receipts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17938             There is a six person volunteer Board of Directors from the community chaired by CJWW General Manager, Vic Dubois, and our Executive Director, Mercedes, along with a number of volunteers who come on board in November and December each year as this wraps up at the end of the year, and that number is somewhere between 75 and 100 people from the community, including huge support by our firefighters in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17939             I'm very pleased to say that ongoing fundraising efforts after 1999 became so successful, thanks to wonderful community support from Saskatoon businesses and organizations, that last year, in 2005, the foundation made a decision to expand its mandate.  Now, we had noticed that the Salvation Army had reduced staff and operations in the City of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17940             Accordingly, after consulting with the Salvation Army, the Secret Santa Foundation stepped up to the plate and took on the task of providing not just toys, but Christmas food hampers as well.  And we searched until we found a building that we could use as a storage and a pick‑up depot, and the week before Christmas, CJWW staff and their families, along with other outside volunteers, put together hampers full of food and toys; then on December 22nd, handed them out to a total of 600 needy Saskatoon families, the majority of which, as it turned out, had four or more children by the way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17941             So that number was anywhere from between 15 and 100 and 2,500 people total that were looked after at Christmas time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17942             We had our most recent Board meeting a short time ago in October and I'm happy to report that the 2006 Secret Santa campaign is set to get under way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17943             We expect to once again provide ‑‑ officially start that campaign with a symbolic placing of a present under the big Christmas tree in the lobby of our City Hall in Saskatoon.  The Mayor is always a part of that.  The firefighters come out and sing carols for us, and there is always a good turnout of the media; and from print, to radio and television, always support us very, very nicely.  CJWW management and staff are ready to go and are as passionate as ever about this very worthwhile cause.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17944             MS WEYMAN:  There are two reasons that I felt it was important for you to hear this story.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17945             The first reason is to show how this radio station, CJWW, goes above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to being caring and compassionate about the community.  This station, along with the other two in the same company, CFQC FM and CJMK FM, are deeply committed to helping nonprofit groups and organizations in Saskatoon achieve their goals of providing a better quality of life for those who require their help.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17946             The station employs a Community Relation's Director whose mandate goes far beyond simply allocating public service announcements on the air.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17947             The CJWW Denny Carr Secret Santa Foundation is just an excellent example of how far these broadcasters are prepared to go to give something back to the community in order to assist those in need.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17948             The second reason that I am here is because I have a fear that should new FM radio licences be granted to Saskatoon, CJWW AM could find itself in a position whereby it cannot continue to spend enough time and money, as well as allocating of staff to ensure that the Secret Santa Foundation fulfils the mandate it has been given by the Board.  That would mean a sad Christmas day for many needy families in Saskatoon.  I believe that it is vitally important to our community that Secret Santa lives on and is able to do its wonderful charitable work in the future.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17949             I am therefore asking the Commission to please take this consideration when deliberating on the number of radio licences that should be operating in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17950             Thank you very much for allowing us to make this presentation today and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17951             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17952             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17953             Thank you for being with us this morning and for presenting the story behind the foundation and I really have no questions; just to congratulate you on your important work for the community and reminding us that Christmas is around the corner.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Weyman and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17955             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17956             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17957             I will now call on the next appearing intervener, Lisa Rendall, to come forward for her presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17958             Ms Rendall, you can go ahead.  You would have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17959             Thank you.


LISTNUM 95 \l 17960             MS RENDALL:  Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17961             My name is Lisa Rendall.  Joining me is Glenda Little, the communications consultant for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17962             I would first like to tell you just a bit about me.  I was diagnosed with stage 4, incurable metastatic breast cancer in July of 2000.  At the time, I was a morning show co‑host on C95 and I have been on long‑term disability for the last six years.  I had pain throughout my body and doctors could not figure out what was going on, until I had severe neck pain, and x‑rays showed that a vertebrae in my neck had totally collapsed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17963             Cancer had eaten away at the bone and destroyed it, collapsing my neck and causing me unbearable pain.  I went to the hospital with a sore neck and found out that I had breast cancer that had spread to the rest of my body; areas including of course my neck, my first right rib is totally broken apart by a tumour.  There are numerous cancerous legions in my chest wall, many of my ribs and throughout my spine from the neck right down to the sacral area.  I have a partially collapsed vertebra in my back and the cancer is also in my liver, but do I look like I have cancer?  No.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17964             I was put in a halo for three months.  I had a bone graft put into my neck from my hip, along with a titanium plate put into my neck.  I also had the lump in my breast removed, a lump that was only detectable by a CT scan.  I had chemotherapy once a week for six months, which was able to shrink the tumours, and my cancer has remained the same for six years.  It's still there, it just hasn't grown or shrunk.  So I have what they call stable disease.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17965             I still have three different treatments a month.  I take two different kinds of Morphine to help me cope with the pain of the cancer in my bones, but I'm not here to talk about me.  I'm here to talk about the outstanding support of C95 in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17966             Since my diagnosis I have been overwhelmed with the support of all of the Saskatoon radio stations, but particularly with C95.  They have been having radio marathon fundraisers for paediatric causes until my diagnosis and it was then that C95 changed the radio marathon to be a fundraiser for breast cancer research.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17967             I have to tell you, I'm a control freak and mixing a control freak with cancer is not an easy thing to do, to say the least, because there was nothing I could do to control my situation.  There is nothing I could do to change it, but I could try and raise enough money to find new treatments and ultimately a cure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17968             The staff at C95 threw themselves into the radio marathon.  It was personal for the staff because of what had happened to me.  I was actually not expected to live for very long.  And someone close to them had been diagnosed with cancer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17969             We not only have the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer at the end of October, which of course is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, but there are many events that C95 publicizes throughout the year.  If an event comes up, they're always trying to think of a way that we can turn it into a fundraiser for breast cancer research.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17970             When the Exhibition is in town, for the entire week the announcers and other staff are there raising money for breast cancer with contests.  They're selling some kind of C95 breast cancer fundraising item.  For a local City Hall chili cook‑off, the money raised goes to the C95 radio marathon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17971             I'm involved with a dragon boat team of breast cancer survivors.  We have fundraising pasta nights, barbecues, and much more throughout the year and C95 is always extremely supportive in letting the community know about these little events as well.  In the summer I hold my own golf tournament, even though I don't golf.  It's called the Lisa Rendall Golf Classic.  It raises money for the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research, another way that I can try and make a difference in what's happened to me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17972             C95 puts the entry form and poster on their website.  They run promos to let everyone know of the event.  And the morning show even comes out to broadcast live the day of the tournament.  The support of the golf tournament goes basically from May through to the end of August with promos and the announcers talking about it, along with information on the C95 website.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17973             I personally hold many fundraising and awareness events about breast cancer throughout the year, and I'm always overwhelmed with the support I receive from the current local radio stations, C95 in particular.  I have been contacted numerous times to do interviews about my golf tournament, fundraising steak nights, our Busting With Energy Dragon Boat Team, even speaking engagements that I do to talk about my breast cancer experience and my ongoing battle with the disease.  I have been featured in many newspapers, magazines and TV interviews, and C95 is even notifying the public about these kinds of things.  Look for Lisa in the paper today, Lisa is here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17974             The single biggest event, though, that shows the commitment of our location radio stations is the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research.  We just had our 7th annual radio marathon last week ‑‑ I'm sorry, it was just last Thursday and Friday.  We raised a record‑breaking $305,000.  There are no big corporate donations.  This is all money raised by local people who are moved to donate because of what they hear on C95.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17975             In the seven years that C95 has turned over the airwaves for an entire two days, we have now made over one million dollars for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency for research.  It's an incredible two days where the radio station focuses entirely on breast cancer and raising money to find a cure and new treatments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17976             C95 started out doing the marathon for 30 hours, then they extended it to 35 hours, now we're at 36 hours.  That's 36 hours of live radio devoted to breast cancer awareness and research.  They talk to a local breast cancer survivor every hour, talk to family members, friends, and staff at the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17977             Before the radio marathon, no one even knew about the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.  You see, they can't go out and tell people about themselves like the Canadian Cancer Society can.  Glenda could speak more to that issue better than I can.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17978             C95 has not only been able to raise over one million dollars for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency, they have made the province aware of the fact that the agency exists.  Glenda Little, communications consultant with the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency will now speak about the impact that C95 has had on the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17979             MS LITTLE:  Thanks, Lisa.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17980             I'm pleased to be here today to talk about Saskatchewan Cancer Agency's relationship with C95 and Rawlco Radio.  As chairperson of the agency, C95 radio marathon committee, I would like to express to you how important our relationship with C95 and Rawlco Radio has become.  This relationship is not only important to our cancer research unit, but to our staff and volunteers, as well as to our patients and their family members and the public at large.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17981             The agency operates cancer centers in Regina and Saskatoon, cancer patient lodges, screening programs for breast and cervical cancer, many other programs and services.  We also have an active cancer research unit located within the Saskatoon Cancer Centre.  Funding for administration of the unit comes from the agency in the form of core support, however, all research carried out within the unit is funded by competitive grants from agencies such as the National Cancer Institute of Canada and others like it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17982             Over the past seven years, the C95 radio marathon has brought in actually one point one million dollars for breast cancer research.  This is an incredible amount and has had an amazing impact on our research program.  Specifically we have been able to significantly expand our program in the area of breast cancer.  Lisa is correct in saying that up to this point, the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency has been a passive fundraiser, meaning that we accept donations, but we haven't been actively involved in fundraising promotion.  Consequently it is sometimes difficult getting the word out that we're right here in the province delivering cancer services and conducting world class research, and C95 and the radio marathon seven years ago, and the positive result has been increased awareness.  We regret that Lisa Rendall's diagnosis is the reason the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research was given to us, but we're truly grateful and thankful for our relationship with Lisa, C95, and Rawlco Radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17983             C95 and Rawlco Radio are making a big difference in the lives of people affected by breast cancer and, in turn, people with all types of cancer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17984             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17985             MS RENDALL:  Thank you, Glenda.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17986             In closing, I would like to personally express that I feel the number of radio stations we have in Saskatoon is more than enough for the size of our community.  I worry that should other competing radio stations come into our community that events such at as my golf tournament would not be able to get the community coverage that we currently receive and that getting 36 hours of live radio for a fundraiser may not be possible any more.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17987             The radio stations we have currently serve our community extremely well.  C95 is incredibly generous and goes over and above what radio stations normally do.  They donate air time and manpower to a massive fundraising and awareness endeavour that I could not possibly do on my own no matter how hard I try.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17988             Thank you so much for your time and we'd be pleased to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17989             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Rendall.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17990             It's amazing, just this morning, the five of us were sitting around the table in our room talking about how cancer has touched us all.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17991             Thank you very much, we have no questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17992             MS RENDALL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17993             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17994             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17995             I would now call on the next two appearing interveners.  They are APTN, Mr. Jean LaRose, and Amanda Nepper, if you would come forward for your presentation.  We will start with Mr. LaRose from APTN, you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17996             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome to God's country, Mr. LaRose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17997             I said, welcome to God's country.


LISTNUM 95 \l 17998             MR. LAROSE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17999             There is still no snow here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18000             Good morning, Madam Chair, monsieur le vice-président, Commissioners and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18001             Mon nom est Jean LaRose.  Je suis le directeur général du reseau de télévision des peuples autochtones.  Je suis un citoyen Abanaki de la première nation Odanak.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18002             I appear before you today in support of an application by Harvard Broadcasting to provide an FM service to Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18003             The service they propose would be directed to the least well served population in the market, 12 to 34 years old.  Harvard has found in their research, both in this and other markets, that it is these younger listeners who are least satisfied  by traditional broadcast radio.  I commend any broadcaster who is recognizing and addressing this critical problem, one of the reasons being that our population is over 50 percent in that age group.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18004             Because it is not just the immediate or even midterm future of radio that is being jeopardized by ignoring these audiences, it has a larger social implication.  As the next generation disconnects from mass media in favour of more highly personalized information and entertainment sources, we lose the opportunity to engage in dialogue; dialogue that is critical to advancing their understanding of the world and dialogue that is needed to expand the horizons of their thought.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18005             The challenges within the Aboriginal communities in this area are not undocumented.  At APTN, we take our role as a community leader and a potential mentor for our youth quite seriously.  One of the primary driving forces behind the creation of the Aboriginal Media Education Fund, AMEF, was the shocking realization that young Aboriginal persons were either not aware of the opportunities in broadcasting or considered it beyond their reach.  In one case, we had developed an Aboriginal‑specific initiative with a CEGEP in Quebec in conjunction with a well‑known producer that offered a number of openings for Aboriginal youth.  Even with a substantial information campaign in high schools located within our communities in that region, not one youth applied.  This demonstrated to us that we need to work harder and more diligently at reaching our youth and clearly demonstrating to them that this is one field where they do have opportunities and a range of choices.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18006             The AMEF, as you heard earlier this week, has one of its mandates, a plan to address this disenfranchisement.  It will begin with education, expand to training both academic and workplace based, develop into mentorship programs, and hopefully will be able to assist with job placements.  One of the most important aspects of the AMEF is that the scope of training covers all aspects of media.  Our intent is to provide training where needed and in areas that are of the most interest to the recipients of the funding.  This is what makes AMEF, in my mind, the most comprehensive and important initiative of its kind in Canada, one that is deserving of support by the entire broadcasting community, be it radio or television.  I sincerely believe that the pool of talent that industry will require in the coming years will in great part be composed of Aboriginal Peoples and we must start today to establish and develop that talent pool.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18007             While the AMEF did not consider Canadian Talent Development Funds as part of the original funding base, it is our assessment that given the criteria, it is exactly the type of organization that the CTD initiatives were envisioned to support.  We thank Harvard Broadcasting for recognizing this opportunity and drawing our attention to this potential funding.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18008             The heart of our support for the Harvest Broadcasting proposal, however, is premised on the ongoing commitment of Harvard Broadcasting in assisting APTN in developing a pool of trained news reporters.  Similar to the commitments of Harvard in Calgary and Fort McMurray, Harvard is prepared to provide at their expense mentorship programs for one candidate each year of a licence.  APTN will recruit and select the candidates and Harvard commits to hiring at least one of the persons completing the program.  These candidates will receive full training in all aspecting of news production and will be given the opportunity to develop their own on‑air segments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18009             Candidates for the mentorship program with Harvard will leave after a year with critical firsthand experience of producing and reporting news.  They will have a portfolio of material that they have worked on to show prospective employers and through their on‑air segments, they will have production credits.  The importance of this type of on‑the‑job training support should not be underestimated.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18010             As the Commission well knows, APTN has just recently been renewed for its second term, and you would know since you renewed it.  We are very proud of what we have accomplished thus far and the increased pass through fee will help take us to the next level.  But all of these new monies have been earmarked to meet our targets of increased production and will be directed toward what appears on screen.  The Commission has given us very specific direction as to how and where to direct that revenue and I intend to ensure that APTN meets the conditions of licence that the CRTC presented with the subscriber increase.  As you know, APTN competes for audience with all other broadcasters and it is imperative that we never lose site of the need to create on‑air programming that is entertaining and engaging.  This leaves APTN and frankly the system with the same exact under‑ representation skilled Aboriginal media people as five years ago.  As well, the Commission is well aware of the costs of producing certain categories and genres of  programming.  Even with the increase, APTN needs to establish partnerships with other broadcasters to develop the types of programming that will meet audience needs and expectations and successfully demonstrate that Canadian productions can be as good, if not better, than off‑the‑shelf productions made in other countries.  APTN is working hard to establish, maintain and expand those partnerships.  But these are outside of the scope of AMEF, which is a totally independent entity from APTN.  AMEF will develop a talent pool from which not only APTN, but other Aboriginal radio broadcasters like AMMSA, MBC, NCI, Wawatay, and others, will be able to get talent.  It is also AMEF's goal to help mainstream broadcasters to have access to this incredible talent pool that will provide them with qualified dynamic and young individuals who will provide them with a whole new generation of skilled workers.  After all, isn't it our social responsibility to ensure that we pave the way for our young people to replace us?  Many of us in this room are 10, 15 years from moving on into our sunset years.  That is a very small window, indeed, to train young people to assume the tasks and responsibilities that we hold and ensure that the industry remains strong and vibrant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18011             That is why we believe it is important that broadcasters be encouraged to contribute support to the system through initiatives like the AMEF and directly to APTN through programs like the proposed news mentoring program.  It is only through a more broadly organized and more widely supported effort that APTN will be able to realize its goal of producing information and entertainment that are "by" and not just "for and about" Aboriginal Peoples.  It is only through these larger efforts that the imbalance in the system in terms of the participation of Aboriginal Peoples will be addressed.  The entire system will benefit since many of these individuals will one day be filling these types of positions not only in the Aboriginal community, but the entire broadcasting community in Canada.  That is the goal of AMEF and I believe the goal of the Commission and the industry and it seeks to work collectively to address the systemic imbalance through the work of the industry in SABAR,  for example, and through other initiatives set out by the Commission to address the under‑representation of certain groups including Aboriginal Peoples.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18012             At APTN we are proud to say we are the first national Aboriginal broadcast in the world.  Our role and our place in the Canadian broadcast system is something we both value and appreciate.  We are encouraged by the fact that broadcasters like Harvard recognize the role they can play in ensuring representation of Aboriginal Peoples "in front and behind the cameras and microphones" and we hope the Commission will reward such valuable contributions by expanding the communities they serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18013             In closing I would like to sum up why I think the Harvard Broadcasting proposal should be licensed.

‑ 1)  The Zone seeks to provide a service for an underserved population and a group of people increasingly disenfranchised with traditional media.

‑ 2)  Harvard proposes a news mentoring program that will provide Saskatoon Aboriginal Peoples an opportunity to train in the market where they live and create skilled people in an area of critical need.

‑ 3)  Harvard's mentoring proposal will not only provide training, but it comes with an offer and a guarantee of employment.

‑ 4)  Harvard Broadcasting's ongoing support of APTN and the AMEF recognizes the role that broadcasters and the system have to play in developing Aboriginal talent.  APTN is certainly making strides, but should not carry the obligation alone.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18014             I thank you very much for your time and attention and would be most happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.  Merci.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18015             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18016             We'll continue with Ms Amanda Nepper and then questions may follow from the panel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18017             MS NEPPER:  Good morning, Madam Chair, and Commissioners and Commission staff.  My name is Amanda Nepper.  I'm 24 years old and I have been a resident of Saskatoon for seven years now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18018             I used to listen to the radio all the time.  For a while, I have been finding myself relying more on my CDs to hear the music that I want to hear.  There is nothing on the radio that I listen to, mainly because it's been the same music and programming over and over and over for years now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18019             Our city desperately needs some diversity for the listeners.  Our current stations play the same music all the time.  There are times I tune into the radio and the song on Rock 102 will also be playing on C95 or the song on Magic 98.3 will also be playing on Rock 102.  And I have personally experienced the same song playing on three stations at once and it's not much of a selection.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18020             So needless to say I was excited to hear about a possible new radio station in Saskatoon.  The ideas presented in the application put forth by Harvard Broadcasting have captured my attention and have my full support.  I want a station that's going to play my music, my friends' music and The Zone would definitely be a station that I could call my own.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18021             Currently no station in Saskatoon is speaking to my generation.  We spend time downloading music and listening to our MP3 players, iPods, rather than using the radio and it's because there is nothing to listen to.  A station that would be playing Alternative and Modern Rock, Urban, Hip Hop and Pop music is exactly the radio station I want and one that I would listen to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18022             The Zone would not only be playing my generations' music, but the news and information programming would be relevant to those in my age group.  This would also be an interactive  station, having listener DJ's mix and introduce their own music and listener polls, which I feel are programs that are designed to create a connection between the station and its audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18023             Harvard also wants to be helping towards the discovery and development of local talent in Saskatoon and Saskatchewan.  Funding is planned for the U of S music department, which in return helps keep music alive and growing in our city.  The talent discovery contest is something I think will help artists within the area and will also be a program for listeners.  We can hear new music and vote for who we like.  It would be like having our own little version of Canadian Idol right there in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18024             A new sound for Saskatoon is long overdue.  I would love having my music collection combined into one radio station rather than having to haul around numerous burnt CDs.  The Zone 92.3 is not only what I'm looking for, I know it's what Saskatoon is looking for.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18025             Thank you for having me today and I will answer any questions you have for me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18026             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18027             Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18028             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18029             Mr. LaRose, I note in your oral presentation today that you're mentioning that AMEF is there to develop the talent pool for APTN and other radio broadcasters, and you name a few by their acronyms.  There is a national radio network whose name doesn't appear on your list.  Is it for any given reason or ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18030             MR. LAROSE:  No, actually this list isn't exhaustive.  If I had made an exhaustive list, it would included AVR, as well as an NEB Terrace, NBY Yukon, NCS in Yellowknife.  I mean, there is a whole range of others.  I just selected a few from this region because I suspect that a lot of the training that would happen in this region would be for youth in this area who would work in radio stations in this area that are currently established and the ones that come to mind as established were those mentioned here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18031             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, I don't know if you're aware, yesterday and over the last couple of days, we heard a few applications for new Aboriginal services in the area.  ADR surely was here with the two proposals; one for Regina and one for Saskatoon.  A group from Saskatoon also under the name of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting made a proposal regarding the implementation of a radio service for Saskatoon, and which will be staffed exclusively by Aboriginal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18032             Now, you just referred in your presentation to a situation that you lived in Quebec through CEGEP.  Do you think that for the time being there is sufficient staffing for ‑‑ to meet the needs of setting up radio stations that will be staffed exclusively by Aboriginal and starts from the ground, say, in the next year or so?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18033             MR. LAROSE:  I don't pretend to know everything about radio, so I will qualify my statements, but it has been my experience with APTN that in many fields we do not have ‑‑ we are hard pressed even as a network to fill all of our positions with Aboriginal people.  That's why we created the mentorship program within the network where non‑aboriginal individuals, who have years of experience in mainstream, are hired for some of the key positions, some director positions and others, some engineer positions, and mentor over the course of sunset contracts, which is three to five years, mentor the Aboriginal staff to reach that level.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18034             I would be hesitant to say that a fully staffed Aboriginal radio station would actually find all of its staff to start.  I suspect there would be gaps.  We certainly have gaps ‑‑ we have gaps right now in filling some of the positions of the bureaus that we have now opened in accordance to our licence.  We're having difficulty filling the positions in Iqaluit with qualified Inuit reporters.  We're having difficulties in filling ‑‑ even in filling one of the prairie bureaus right now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18035             So obviously there is a shortage of talent and this is why the approach that we are using with AMEF and Harvard here strikes APTN as the proper approach because it is developing talent in areas that are needed and it is looking at all areas, and some of our production areas, whether it's from a technical perspective, whether it's from an off‑air strictly management and operational perspective.  There is not a lot of talent that has had the opportunity in mainstream to possibly be able to fulfil all the duties of a network.  That's my experience with APTN.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18036             I know it's the experience of some of the societies who operate Aboriginal radio networks across the country, so I would have to say that, at this point, I am not convinced that a fully staffed station established for the purpose of that, and also under the auspices of a mainstream network, might actually develop the way that it is expected to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18037             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And personally, you, John LaRose, how did you come to broadcasting to the position that you are now holding at APTN?  Where were you trained?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18038             MR. LAROSE:  Where did I ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18039             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18040             MR. LAROSE:  Actually I came into APTN from our communications PR and media relations field.  What gave me the background to fulfil this position was the fact that I had the opportunity over a few years to operate a business on my own, but also from my political perspective to work with some of the Aboriginal organizations and gather a lot of knowledge and experience of what were some of the challenges faced by the communities, and what were some of the challenges faced by some of our organizations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18041             And this knowledge is what allowed me to be able to step in this position, and while not being fully knowledgeable about the field, have enough experience to know what the pitfalls usually were for organizations such as ours, how to avoid them.  And the big knowledge I learned over the ten years in business also gave me a good background on what to look for, how to build a network, how to expand it, and how to ensure that it is on the proper footing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18042             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18043             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18044             Ms Nepper, you are a part‑time student?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18045             MS NEPPER:  I just wrote my last midterm for this semester.  I'm not going back next semester.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18046             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're not going back?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18047             MS NEPPER:  Well, I plan to go back, but I just ‑‑ there is a glitch in the plan right now, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18048             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about your friends at University or ‑‑ not necessarily in University, your other friends, what do they listen to?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18049             MS NEPPER:  Not the radio, and it's not even that; they listen to ‑‑ they download music because we don't hear it ‑‑ like, I have one girlfriend that, you know, she said, I'll listen to the radio for maybe an hour, I'll hear two songs that I like and maybe ‑‑ and none of them will be songs that they haven't already heard.  And I have ‑‑ like, I use my boyfriend's younger siblings, because I don't have any younger siblings.  Chantelle is 16 and Chet is 19 and they never listen to the radio.  Like, they probably ‑‑ I don't think ‑‑ I don't think Chantelle has listened to the radio at all.  Like, Chet stopped listening, but there is nothing there for them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18050             Like, there is going to be no future in radio.  That's what I mean, we're going to lose, like, a whole generation.  Music is so important and they're not hearing anything they want to hear.  And an '80s request lunch doesn't mean anything to them and that's prime time listening hour, as far as I'm concerned.  That's when kids aren't in school, that's when, you know, people are on their lunch breaks, that's when people are driving around.  Everyone is listening to the radio and I'm sure the '80s does hit a certain group, but ‑‑ I was even born in 1982, but I don't want to hear that all lunch hour, you know.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You probably don't remember when you were one year old and had  favourite tunes at that time?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18052             MS NEPPER:  I even made a comment to my mom about ‑‑ because of my hair.  I said, I wish I was born in the '80s, but that's ‑‑ I was, but I didn't live the '80s, you know.  We lived the '90s and, like, the future now.  Like, there is nothing on the radio for us to listen to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18053             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18054             Mr. LaRose, I hear you about trying to find qualified people.  I think it is the experience of broadcasters in Saskatoon that even finding anybody to recruit to train is difficult.  And you will be choosing the person who will be going in with Harvard should they be licensed.  How do you plan to find somebody and your CEGEP experience is the same thing, isn't it?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18055             MR. LAROSE:  Well, it is.  And I mean, what we have ‑‑ in fact, one thing that's been very useful to us recently, as you know, we opened the Edmonton bureau, we've opened the Whitehorse and Iqaluit bureaus.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18056             We also had to staff our Saskatoon bureau because we had one of our key reporters, who is also a playwright, make the choice that play writing was more interesting than news reporting and also who plans to pitch show ideas to us, so he left, but in the course of the job search and the interviews we conducted, we identified about eight Aboriginal individuals who have some writing experience, but no radio or television experience.  So we right now have possible candidates for up to eight positions that would require training and mentoring.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18057             The same happened in Edmonton.  I think we've got five people on that list, five Aboriginal individuals, so I think that the opportunities are there.  I think that the people are there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18058             In Quebec it's a different story.  We've started an outreach program in high schools where our regional manager of programming for Quebec and eastern region will be going to some of the community colleges, will be going to high schools and even earlier, you know, mid schools, late grade 7, grade 8, some of the job fairs, and we will be basically bringing sort of a little travelling road show to those schools to show the various opportunities, not only within television, but whether it be a reporter, whether it be a sound person; it could be radio, it could be television, to show the entire broadcasting sector because we're also trying to build an Aboriginal television broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18059             We're trying to build a production community that will provide us with programming, but also work with the partnerships that we have, say, with Omni and with other broadcasters to develop new programming that's of interest to both our audience and Canadians in general.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18060             As you know, the partnership with Omni right now is allowing us to develop two ‑‑ we're test marketing two talk shows that are oriented to Native spirituality, but spirituality in general as well, so it's of interest to both audiences, but that we'll also look at the broader scope of spirituality within the Aboriginal consciences, which involves healthy living, which involves a whole array of, you know, an entire lifestyle.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18061             And from these two that we are developing this year, and will be airing, we will choose one that under the special benefits and the partnership we have with them, will be pursued for the next three years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18062             So as we develop these opportunities we are also tightening our rules for non‑ aboriginal producers.  We are tightening the rules for the mentoring of the people they hire.  We are tightening the guidelines as to what they need to deliver to those individuals because too often we have seen ‑‑ I hate to use the term, but I have to use it, because I can't think of another one, what I call is the store‑front Indian, which is the token Indian in front of a project where the individual in fact has no real responsibility.  And we have seen that with the production this year.  And that discourages me because it goes totally against what APTN is trying to do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18063             If someone is hired to be an associate producer, I expect that they will be given the training to that level, not asked to sort of sit and watch, because you don't learn too much in sitting and watching.  You learn by doing.  You learn by being mentored.  So I think we have the people that we can bring into these markets, the prairie markets.  This is where we have the highest concentration of Aboriginal people.  This is where right now we have the highest potential and we do have people that could go in right now these mentoring positions.  We just need to ensure that they're there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18064             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.  Thank you, Ms Nepper.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18065             And I have been asked by two individuals if we could take a break.  So it's 10:30 my time.  We will be back in 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18066             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1030 / Suspension à 1030

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

LISTNUM 95 \l 18067             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18068             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18069             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18070             We will now proceed with the next two appearing interveners.  I would ask that the Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre as well as Mils Productions, if they would come forward to present their intervention?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18071             THE SECRETARY:  I would ask if you could please identify yourself?  Are you with the Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18072             MS HENDERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18073             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18074             Please introduce yourself and you'll have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18075             MS HENDERSON:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18076             I'm honoured to be here today before you to lend my support for the radio licence application put forward by the Aboriginal Voices Radio network to broadcast in Saskatoon.  My name is May Henderson and I represent the Saskatoon Friendship Centre.  Saskatoon Friendship Centre was incorporated in 1968 and has served as the central hub of the Saskatoon Aboriginal community for 38 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18077             Our Friendship Centre continued to build and develop partnerships that assist Aboriginal people in closing the gap in life's chances between Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal peoples.  We have been committed for many years to developing a strong and productive community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18078             SIMFC objectives are to provide a reception centre for Aboriginal people coming to the city, to provide an information referral centre for Aboriginal people to ‑‑ residing in the city, to provide a place where cultural activities and identification can be carried on and maintained, to provide a meeting place where the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal community can come together to mutually support each other and exchange ideas and values.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18079             Simply put, I believe that having Aboriginal Voices Radio broadcast in Saskatoon will contribute to the achievement of our priorities and our goals.  AVR has demonstrated the same values and concerns toward Aboriginal wellbeing as we do.  AVR recognizes that our future is in our youth, therefore we must create opportunities for the young ones to hear their language, hear their stories, and hear their own voices.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18080             One of the great gifts that we can give to the future is strong and grounded children with a clear sense of who they are.  This sense of identity is the foundation upon which we can rebuild our communities and fully participate in opportunities and employment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18081             Having AVR provide an outlet of creative expression allows our community to share the beauty and strength of our culture with others.  In this way, we hope to affect how other people in our city hear and understand us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18082             We see AVR as a way to bridge the cultural divides.  As well, AVR allows our artists a place their expression of today's Aboriginal reality and culture.  It establishes a venue that our people will aspire to to share their art and voice.  We are a vibrant and dynamic community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18083             Furthermore, AVR is committed to supporting the efforts of our communities and organizations by creating the opportunity for us to get the word about ‑‑ out about our events, gatherings and community endeavours.  This is a very important contribution.  It allows us the chance to support each other and coordinate a common front on our issues and our priorities.  I'm nervous.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18084             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Don't be.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18085             MS HENDERSON:  Once again and in conclusion, I believe that having AVR here in Saskatoon will contribute to the achievements of our collective priorities.  Here is an opportunity to fill a void that would mean great things to so many people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18086             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18087             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18088             Do you have an estimate?  Like, I know Stats Can has their estimates, but it's always been that Indian and Metis people ‑‑ well, particularly Indian people under‑report.  Do you have an estimation of the population of Aboriginal, First Nations, Metis people in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18089             MS HENDERSON:  I would say it's at least 25, 30 percent.  It's quite high.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18090             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the population?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18091             MS HENDERSON:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18092             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  Especially the Metis because we don't ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18093             MS HENDERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18094             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how many people would be coming through your doors these days?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18095             MS HENDERSON:  Through our doors monthly, we'd probably have about 1500 people that comes through our doors on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18096             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And any estimate about how many people ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ I guess maybe on a monthly basis or a yearly basis are coming into the city?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18097             MS HENDERSON:  Lots.  It's ‑‑ you know, we're surrounded by several reserves.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18098             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, mmhmm.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18099             MS HENDERSON:  And there's a lot of people coming in from ‑‑ into the urban centres because, you know, there's more opportunities, but it ‑‑ the numbers are high, and it's growing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18100             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Education and jobs ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18101             MS HENDERSON:  Education, jobs and just for places to live, like ‑‑ you know, they need homes, and we try and assist them in locating accommodations and ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18102             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18103             MS HENDERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18104             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18105             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18106             I would now call on the last three appearing interveners, Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation, Joe Duquette High School and Robert A. Merasty, if you would come forward for your presentation please?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18107             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wonder, Madam Secretary, are these conflicting interveners?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18108             THE SECRETARY:  I'm just told that, so perhaps we will start with Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation and we'll continue ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18109             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And are you with the school?  Are you Mr. Merasty?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18110             MR. MERASTY:  I'm Mr. Merasty.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Merasty, if I could ask you to sit back in the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18112             MR. MERASTY:  Yes, I will.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18113             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18114             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18115             My apologies for this.  Mr. Prokopie, you can go ahead with your presentation for the Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18116             Thank you.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18117             MR. PROKOPIE:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff.  Unfortunately Deborah Charles, MBC's CEO, is unable to be here today.  She needed to depart Regina quickly yesterday afternoon.  Her hope was to be back here for this morning.  Unfortunately that hasn't happened, so I will do my best to present her case.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18118             I filed, this morning, some papers with the Commission secretary with regards to some notes that I will be working from at this point in time.  I may not read them exactly verbatim, but I'll touch on the points that I think are certainly important towards our intervention.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18119             Number 1, MBC's objection to Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application is based on a number of salient points.  From the lack of community involvement in the selection of trustees, to the inclusion of only one Aboriginal person in the trustees' list, to the generic survey provided, to the complete absence of cultural programming, it is clear that Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application lacks substantial meaningful participation by Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18120             Number 2, Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application has no mechanism of accountability to Aboriginal people.  The trust structure it proposes offers one seat of four to an appointed Aboriginal with no mandated responsibility to serve the Aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18121             Number 3, Aboriginal people cannot accept that the trust structure is sufficiently accountable to the Aboriginal community especially given the fact that only one of the trustees, again, is of First Nations descent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18122             Number 4, a major flaw in the Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. application is the claim that Rawlco Radio and 629112 Saskatchewan Limited are the only companies likely even to consider creating such a station.  In our view, this statement by the applicants demonstrates their total disregard for the capacity of the Aboriginal community to create a radio station by, about and for the Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18123             This premise is weakened all the more by the applicant's failure to acknowledge the fact that MBC, a dedicated Aboriginal broadcast organization already exists and serves the vast majority of Saskatchewan's Aboriginal population, including those in Saskatoon in 104.1 FM.  With the ‑‑ and MBC does it with the most culturally attuned and relevant radio programming in the market done in the Cree, Dene, Michif and English languages.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18124             Number 5, the absence of a plan to deliver substantial and meaningful cultural programming further underscores the application's shortcomings and why it is inappropriate for these applicants to launch an Aboriginal radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18125             Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. does not offer the quality and quantity of specific cultural and linguistic, not to mention social content in their application that would speak to the real needs of Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18126             To overlook primary programming elements such as broadcasts in Aboriginal languages is a clear sign of the applicant's inability to recognize and therefore address the true range of needs and interests of the Aboriginal population.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18127             Number 6, we find it somewhat ludicrous to suggest that a top 40 station that with programming that appeals to Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal young people alike could be a seminal point in the history of Saskatoon.  Such a statement, at its best, is exceedingly disgenerous and fulsome in its artful pretense.  Any radio station that purports to serve Aboriginal people and fails to offer content that reflects the distinct needs and interests of this audience will fail to serve them in the degree they deserve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18128             Number 7, MBC feels certain that our prospects for Aboriginal people living in urban centres, and in particular our youth, will not be impacted in any significant positive way by the applicants proposed undertaking.  Their proposal is essentially a conventional commercial radio station with a modicum of current events, information of interest to the target demographic.  We agree that a radio station can contribute to and reflect a healthy Aboriginal community.  However, we find nothing in the applicant's documentation to support the claim that the one they wish to build will do just that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18129             Number 8, the applicants ‑‑ MBC feels the applicants are unsuited to the task of building an Aboriginal radio station because it fails to recognize the intrinsic value and existing capacity of Aboriginal people and, thus, continues a feeling or an approach that is regressive, outdated and ineffective.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18130             We cite the following statement as evidence:  "Central to this application is our belief that if this radio station is to truly make a difference in bringing together the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal communities, it must provide irrevocable evidence that Aboriginals are fully capable of staffing and programming a highly popular radio station in Saskatoon."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18131             Elsewhere in the application, this perspective is further illustrated as in this passage:  "This day will truly be a historic day in the history of Canadian radio.  Saskatoon, a city where the successful integration of its rapidly growing young Aboriginal population will have a tremendous bearing on its future development.  It will also have" ‑‑ pardon me ‑‑ "will have an Aboriginal owned and staffed commercial radio station.  It will compete on an equal playing field with the existing stations.  It's stature in the city will be equal in every respect to its competitors."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18132             It is clear from these statements that the applicant believes firstly, that number 1, the capacity to staff and program a highly popular radio station in Saskatoon is not currently present in the Aboriginal population.  Number 2, that only the applicants have the ability to build this capacity.  And number 3, an Aboriginal radio station's value will be determined only in relation to that of conventional mainstream standards.  Again, the very existence of MBC and its track record of measured steady development of its mandate to serve all Aboriginal people of Saskatoon is not only proof that these statements are false, it clearly demonstrate the applicant's regrettable failure to recognize the level of quality, service and dedication to the Aboriginal people of Saskatchewan as exemplified by MBC.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18133             Number 9, there is further evidence of the applicant's mentality, and these are perhaps most damaging to their claim of capability to serve Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18134             Here is another excerpt from their application.  "For young Aboriginals, this will truly be an exciting day when they hear announcers and newscasters who are every bit as good as their counterparts on the competing stations, a real sense of pride will flow through this community.  For possibly the first time they will have high ‑‑ highly visible role models that they not only think are great, but that their non‑Aboriginal friends also think are great."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18135             Here is another:  "Role models can have a real influence on a person's life.  Aboriginals have had few role models to look up to."  These statements illustrate a clear lack of understanding or respect for and connection to the Aboriginal community.  Not only do we have a ‑‑ not only do we have role models, but they are plentiful.  Both ‑‑ or all nationally, regionally, locally in all fields of excellence, worthy of recognition by any measure and in many cases admired by the general public.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18136             We respectfully submit that judging by the statements cited above, the applicant is part of the problem they purport to be addressing by their efforts, not the solution and, as such, are not suited to the task of creating an Aboriginal station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18137             Number 10, Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. claims that it will serve the Aboriginal population.  However, the details of the application are so intertwined with the interests of the applicant's broadcast companies that currently own and operate as many stations as they can in the market under present regulations, that it must leave the CRTC with some very grave doubts as to their true intentions.  We believe that the primary motive for the applicant's efforts is to exploit the distinct nature of Aboriginal culture for the purpose of market control that would be of benefit to the applicants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18138             Number 11, MBC can only conclude that the applicant's efforts to establish an Aboriginal radio station in Saskatoon is a form of cultural exploitation that would undermine what MBC seeks to provide our people in Saskatoon.  We feel that the Commission must reject outright any such effort to usurp the mantle of Aboriginal broadcasting especially in which is the rightful inheritance of our own people in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18139             For Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. to claim that its application is the first to serve the Aboriginal people of the city is very unfortunate and disrespectful of the audience it claims to want to serve.  Given the fundamental issues raised, the MBC does wholeheartedly urge the Commission to reject the Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. application.  That brings a close to my oral report.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18140             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Prokopie ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18141             MR. PROKOPIE:  Prokopie.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18142             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Prokopie.  If there had been an application by P.A. Grand Council, SIGA with the same structure, the trust and that they would mentor out for a year and come back, would you have a problem with that?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18143             MR. PROKOPIE:  I don't believe that we would have nearly the problem that we do have.  We believe that the process would have been very different if that was the case.  There would have been some initial dialogue.  There would have been some consultations with MBC.  There perhaps, you know, would have been an opportunity for MBC to come on board and help mentor as ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18144             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or maybe mentor, yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18145             MR. PROKOPIE:  ‑‑ as a word that's been used here today.  So I believe the entire process, if those were the applicants, would have been very different than what is before us today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18146             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Recognizing that this isn't really a station meant to be only for Aboriginal use, it's meant to attack that group of young people, 12 to ‑‑ I'm going to say 20, who don't now listen to radio, who, you know, are on their iPods that I don't even ‑‑ can't even figure out how to program.  And part of the reason was to attack that, but also then to provide positive role models but ‑‑ okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18147             I think Commissioner Williams has a question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18148             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah, good morning, Mr. Prokopie.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18149             I'm going to spend a bit of time on your intervention and try and understand it better and ‑‑ so as to figure out why you'd be so against this application.  It's my understanding a bit from, of course, reading all the material that's presented and all the interventions and questioning the application by our panel yesterday is this is ‑‑ it's not an Aboriginal station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18150             It's a new commercial FM radio station with, I guess, the unique characteristic about it is that the goal of the two organizations that are trying to set it up is they're going to create an opportunity for a hundred percent Aboriginal owned and staffed radio station for the princely sum of one dollar.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18151             So while I respect all your comments here, if you were speaking against an Aboriginal radio station applicant, I would probably have a better understanding than against a new commercial FM for the Saskatoon market that, in their words and what we found from them, was to appeal to all youth in the Saskatoon marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18152             I don't think they were intending to ‑‑ and I'd be willing to hear more.  I don't think they were intending to compete with MBC or to try and suggest that they would do a better job than MBC in serving the Aboriginal community because what we've also learned through the process of this hearing is the Aboriginal community is very well served by MBC.  They're an excellent operator in this panel member's opinion for sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18153             So can I have your comments on those opening statements?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18154             MR. PROKOPIE:  Certainly, and I hope I, you know, have an adequate answer for you.  Our intervention that was submitted to the Commission back in October and the notes that I'm working from now are based on the announcement of this proposed station.  The press release that was sent out, the information that was out there definitely stated that it was, you know, an Aboriginal station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18155             I don't have a copy of the Star Phoenix in front of me, or that newspaper, but that is what we are addressing is the information that initially came out as to what the project would be.  And I'm quite confident in saying it was stated that it would be an Aboriginal radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18156             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.  In the documentation that's been filed with the application, were there ‑‑ it's indicated there will be future Aboriginal ownership and employees.  They're ‑‑ I guess if I could use a wilder example, there could be, as my colleague ‑‑ there could be ‑‑ it could be ‑‑ could it be called an Italian station if the ownership was Italian and the employees were Italian, but it was for a commercial radio station serving Edmonton?  Like, what I'm trying to get across is I don't understand where you feel that it's an Aboriginal station other than the ownership and employee makeup?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18157             MR. PROKOPIE:  I go back to, you know, what I said earlier.  And the pretense or the information that was out there, we truly felt and read that it was an Aboriginal radio station that, you know, what was going to be run by a trust company.  It was going to be for Aboriginal people, filling a niche that is not being serviced towards Aboriginal people, and it's the first of its kind to serve Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18158             So again, I go back to my initial answer is a lot of this information is based on the announcement that was made as to what the plans were for the application.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18159             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And this announcement was you came into possession of it by reading a newspaper or listening ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18160             MR. PROKOPIE:  Right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18161             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ to the news?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18162             MR. PROKOPIE:  It was a press release that I'm sure, you know, the applicants had sent out to other forms of media, and that's where we first heard about it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18163             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In other parts of your intervention, there's several quotations that I guess could be termed either insensitive to the Aboriginal community, as you suggest, or an unfortunate choice of words.  I guess the jury could be out on that or maybe subject to different interpretations.  How would you view that comment if people had slightly different views than what you're bringing forward?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18164             MR. PROKOPIE:  I'm sorry, I must confess I really don't understand the question that you're asking me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18165             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, okay.  Now, on page 3 of your intervention you quote various statements that the applicant has made and say that, based upon those statements, the applicants are not suited to the task of creating an Aboriginal radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18166             I guess what I'm trying to see is if your mind is open to the idea that perhaps these comments were not meant in the way that you interpreted them.  They may have been an unfortunate choice of words or something to that effect, and I'm wondering if your mind is open to that idea?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18167             MR. PROKOPIE:  My mind is certainly open and, you know, I think things can and sometimes do maybe be taken out of context.  I am not necessarily certain if, you know, this is the case here.  Again, these quotes come from the press release that was issued.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18168             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18169             MR. PROKOPIE:  And we just feel to state that there's no Aboriginal role models out there is not a true statement.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18170             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.  That's a ‑‑ so you've had no opportunity to meet with the proponents of this application?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18171             MR. PROKOPIE:  I know there was some meetings that were being worked towards.  For some reason or other they did not happen, and from MBC's perspective, not by anything that we caused ourselves.  Now, we ‑‑ you know, again there could be some miscommunication there as, you know, quite often can happen.  But we certainly went into this with an open mind, and that's why we didn't respond initially when the information came out.  When the press release came out, we were asked many times "Is MBC going to respond?  You should respond."  And we said, "No, we just ‑‑ we're going to sit back and see how things play out."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18172             We certainly were willing to dialogue with anybody, and I think we said that the other day in our Regina application.  Unfortunately it didn't come to be and, again, we feel that, you know, we did what we could to ensure a meeting took place.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18173             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  On a going‑forward basis ‑‑ I'm not trying to prejudge anything out of this hearing; that may in fact go nowhere ‑‑ but would MBC be open to meeting with these proponents at some time in the future to see if they're ‑‑ it seems that MBC would be such a powerful resource to ‑‑ for these proponents to have in their ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18174             MR. PROKOPIE:  That's one question that at this point ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18175             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ in their circle of acquaintances.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18176             MR. PROKOPIE:  ‑‑ you know, I don't believe that I could answer and have go on record as the official word.  I have a CEO that I get my direction from, and she gets her direction from our board of directors, and I believe that's a decision that's ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18177             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I don't mind accepting just your opinion, recognizing that it's not the official position.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18178             MR. PROKOPIE:  I believe MBC has always been willing to work with anybody, and we have worked with Mr. Rawlinson's radio group in the past through some combined ad campaigns ‑‑ and I wouldn't say necessarily "work".  We've sold them air time to help some of the campaigns that they've gone out and sold and to expose those messages into the north.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18179             We are not against working with absolutely anybody.  We don't want enemies, so I think anything is certainly possible.  But ultimately, like I said, that decision wouldn't be mine to make.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18180             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yeah.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18181             I think I have a better understanding of your intervention.  In the written material provided you also have your AVR response, but is that to come later?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18182             MR. PROKOPIE:  I ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18183             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Prokopie was invited to intervene on the Saskatoon Radio and not on the issue of AVR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18184             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  That's ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18185             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in fact they didn't say they would be wanting to attend on the issue either.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18186             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, that's why I was inquiring.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18187             Thank you, Madam Chair.  And thank you, Mr. Prokopie.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18189             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Earlier this morning and surely yesterday we surely hear interveners and applicants talking about mentoring Aboriginals.  We even hear earlier today, Mr. LaRose from APTN saying that even within APTN they have difficulty to find out Aboriginal for ‑‑ to work for them.  They had to supplement with other people.  Are you having the same type of difficulties or what's the experience of MBC?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18190             MR. PROKOPIE:  That's a very good point and, yes, we certainly do deal with those difficulties on a daily basis through all positions of our operations.  To find the talent that we need is quite the challenge, and sometimes that leaves us, you know, without all the bodies in place that we quite often need, but it's a fact of life.  And that's why we've entered into things like our scholarship program.  That's why we've run programs in conjunction with Northlands College in La Ronge to offer a Norcom program which was a communications type program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18191             We look at all those avenues to help us find the talent we need because, yes, there very much is a shortage of specifically First Nations talent that have the experience within the broadcast industry.  And it's a daily struggle, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18192             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you remember WAAB and do you know, to your knowledge, is it the same situation in Manitoba and Alberta and BC or is it different for various reasons to your knowledge?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18193             MR. PROKOPIE:  To the best of my knowledge, I believe we all struggle with the same challenges.  You look at, you know, NCI and AMMSA in Edmonton, perhaps they have a little larger talent pool to draw from, which might make their lives a little easier.  But in the discussions that we have, it certainly is a concern of theirs as well.  Like I say, maybe not to the extent that we feel it here, but certainly a concern.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18194             And I actually heard Mr. LaRose from APTN talking about that very issue earlier.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18195             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18196             MR. PROKOPIE:  So obviously, you know, it is quite a standardized problem across the board.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18197             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, Mr. LaRose says APTN has put up a program of its own that they call MF(ph), and are you knowledgeable about that program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18198             MR. PROKOPIE:  I actually just learned a little bit about it within the last 48 hours or so.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18199             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I see.  So you haven't seen the result yet going to where ‑‑ back toward your organization?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18200             MR. PROKOPIE:  No, no, but it's something that we certainly look forward to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18201             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18202             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Prokopie ‑‑ Prokopie.  I'm sorry, for some reason I just ‑‑ my mouth can't get around it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18203             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18204             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18205             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18206             I would now call on Mr. Robert Merasty.  If you would come forward for your presentation?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18207             THE SECRETARY:  You may start, Mr. Merasty, when you're ready and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18208             MR. MERASTY:  Good morning, Madam Chair ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18209             THE SECRETARY:  Would you please turn on your microphone, please?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18210             Thank you.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18211             MR. MERASTY:  Is that better?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18212             Good morning, Madam Chair, Commission Members.  I'm very honoured and excited to appear here today in support of the application from Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Corporation Ltd.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18213             A bit about myself initially, I'm an Aboriginal man, member of the Flying Dust Cree Nation near Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan.  I'm married, a family man with four sons.  I resided in Saskatoon for most of our life, which is more than 20 years.  I won't say my age.  I have an education in law at Osgoode Hall University Law School and education at University of Saskatchewan.  I am currently self‑employed as the principle consultant of R.A.  Merasty and Associates, an Aboriginal consulting firm in Saskatoon working in Aboriginal business and human resources development and building bridges to promote opportunities for our people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18214             I have focused my work efforts at developmental work that makes a difference in this province and my home community of Saskatoon.  I was executive director of the FSIN, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, corporate circle initiative with 75 First Nations of Saskatchewan and 45 corporate organizations working together to build a stronger economic foundation for Saskatchewan by engaging our rapidly growing Aboriginal population in mainstream business activity and in the workforces.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18215             I was also a senior Aboriginal policy advisor and director of Aboriginal business with the province's Crown Investments Corporation.  I have served on numerous provincial and community boards, once again to promote and enhance opportunities and build essential bridges.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18216             What I currently do, my current work involves the urban Aboriginal strategy for Saskatoon, a pilot project in response to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal people report entitled, "Gathering Strength, Canada's Action Plan For Aboriginal People".  The strategy involves engaging discussions with community stakeholders and organizations to come up with a collaborative community approach and model to address Aboriginal priorities in the community, helping ‑‑ in building a stronger community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18217             As I said, why I'm here, I'm here to support the application for Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Corporation Ltd. for a number of very solid and important reasons inclusive to the applicant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18218             Number 1, commitment's importance ‑‑ commitment, support and sincerity for Aboriginal people.  The people in the organization making the application have consistently demonstrated their commitment, support and sincerity in promoting Aboriginal cultural understanding and enhancing opportunities for Aboriginal people.  It is this commitment and support that builds united strong communities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18219             An example, in my work when I was executive director of the FSIN corporate circle, I called upon Rawlco to come in and provide their support.  They did so as an organization, entire organization, and they also provided a co‑Chair.  Their influence was able to leverage other corporate members and build momentum for initiative to achieve great results.  This application, I believe, is a testament to their proactive attitude in accommodating the young and growing Aboriginal population in Saskatchewan and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18220             I believe that Rawlco and the applicants have an established trust and relationship ‑‑ respect relationship with the Aboriginal community of Saskatoon.  Their commitments to Aboriginal people are extensive.  This is a partnership that will get better and more effective in meeting the needs of Aboriginal people in the community with a new radio station for Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18221             Thirdly, there's a market and a need for a new radio station in Saskatoon to meet the needs of the migrating Aboriginal population, which is currently around 25,000, I believe, and it's rapidly accelerating.  It will cater to a rapidly growing segment of young Aboriginal people migrating in Saskatoon.  This complements the work that I'm doing currently with the urban Aboriginal strategy in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18222             I've heard from the community of Saskatoon that the number one priority in their communities is youth, gang related strategies, crystal meth, drug use, a lot of problems with youth.  And I think that this radio station would totally support the work that I do in the community of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18223             Essential to this process is being able to communicate with young people through up‑to‑date music and promotion of wellness activities and information.  Just as a side note, I did some of my own independent research with some conference people just down the hall.  There's a couple young Aboriginal people there, and I ‑‑ and they said, "Why are you here?"  And I said, "Well, I'm here to support the application for this new radio station."  They said, "Well, that's tremendous.  We totally support that.  We believe that that will really help us in our community."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18224             So that's ‑‑ I think that's a need of providing a voice for the young Aboriginal people in the community and reaching them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18225             Lastly, I think Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting is continuing to send the message to other corporations, its corporate social responsibility to support Aboriginal development.  Once again, they're taking a proactive role in supporting Aboriginal people by, one, establishing a radio station for Aboriginal people, initiating a whole new career experience in training for 32 people was well, and opening the door for potential career direction for other youth in broadcasting ‑‑ other Aboriginal youth in broadcasting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18226             I think the process they have planned makes sense.  It's well thought out.  Develop the radio station as a viable interest ‑‑ viable business, form a share structure in terms of the trust.  Develop, mentor and educate the staff for the business where ‑‑ to the point where it's viable.  Lastly, hand over total control of the business, the radio station for a dollar.  And I've got a dollar in my pocket, so I'm prepared to buy the radio station if that's ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18227             MR. MERASTY:  Lastly, I think that there's been some talk about the process the applicants use in this ‑‑ in applying for the radio station.  I think that they've always been open minded in this process and are willing to work with others and I think that that's always been their attitude.  They're in this process to serve a market and to foster development of our people, our Aboriginal people in Saskatoon and, as well, the Province of Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18228             That's it for me.  Thank you very much, and I hope that you will take my recommendations with ‑‑ sincerely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18229             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Merasty.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18230             Where is Flying Dust?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18231             MR. MERASTY:  I also call it God's country.  It's near Meadow Lake, which is about three hours north of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18232             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right, okay.  You're not related to Gary?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18233             MR. MERASTY:  Same family tree, different branches.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18235             MR. MERASTY:  We all have the same focus, yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18237             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18238             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18239             I understand that Joe Duquette High School, the representative is present.  My apologies.  I should have not skipped over.  If they would come forward for their presentation?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18240             MR. MERASTY:  Are you finished with me then?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18241             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18242             MR. MERASTY:  Thank you very much.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18243             THE SECRETARY:  If you could please identify yourself for the record?  And then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18244             MR. HOWE:  My name is Evan Howe, and I'm a Metis teacher at Joe Duquette High School.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18245             The first thing I want to say is that I'm not here representing Joe Duquette High School.  I'm only here representing myself and my experience as a media studies teacher at the school and my relationship, I guess, as a teacher at that school with Rawlco Radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18246             I've been teaching at Joe Duquette for six years, and Joe Duquette is a school that is of total Aboriginal student population.  And they emphasize Plains Cree spirituality and culture, and that's what makes it unique.  My first three weeks there, I was teaching grade 11 media studies and, in that capacity, I was ‑‑ I approached Rawlco Radio in my first year and I asked, "Could you send someone over to speak to my media studies class".  And they sent Ramblin' Dave Scharf, and he did a history of rock and roll, and that became an ongoing thing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18247             We also got some other senior staff members from Rawlco to come and do presentations about the radio industry because I was trying to get my students ‑‑ and that's the problem with media studies class is it's about analyzing things in kind of a cerebral way, but I wanted them to get more of a hands‑on kind of feel for different media institutions, and Rawlco was the only one that really stepped up to the plate and said, "Yes, we'll help you with this."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18248             So they sent people over to really outline what the radio industry is all about and they took students on tours on a regular basis, and that's one of the questions I remember my students always asking these presenters from Rawlco, "Why doesn't radio stations like C95 or Rock 102 ‑‑ how come we don't hear the music we want to hear?"  That was a repetitive question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18249             So when we went on one of these tours, there was this ‑‑ this is a grade 11 class, and we're all waiting in front of the school to take a bus to Rawlco.  And there's this one student named Penny, who is actually a grade 12 student and wasn't even a student of mine.  And she ditched her class and said, "Evan, can I come with you guys?"  And I said, "Penny, you're not even in my class.  What are you doing?  You know, does your teacher know about this?"  "Well, no, but I really, really want to go to the radio station.  This is something I've always wanted to do."  I said, "Well, I'll ask your teacher's permission and, if she says it's all right, yes."  So I did, and she was allowed to go.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18250             So she was the most excited person on the tour, and some of the students were into it and some weren't, and it's like whatever.  But she was there.  She was asking questions.  We saw all the different departments.  I was just grateful she came along.  The following ‑‑ or it was that same year.  This was my second year teaching, I thought, you know, I would like to give a grade 12 student the opportunity to do something like mentorship.  I called it an internship.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18251             So I approached Rawlco about this, and they said, "Okay.  Well, you know, we've done, like, job shadowing with other schools in the past.  We could do something like that."  And I said, "You know, that's not going to cut it for me.  I want it to be more than that.  I want these students to see that there's a real job, a real career opportunity in this industry that they maybe haven't looked at before.  I want it to be more substantial than job shadowing.  I want it to be like on‑the‑job training.  I want them to get their hands into it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18252             So they said, "Okay.  Well, you know, let us think about it because we haven't done that before."  And this was years ago.  And they did.  They came to me within a couple of months' time.  They said, "We've been talking about it.  We've come up with a package and a plan and a way to do this.  We'll try it out."  So they said, "We'll take one grade 12 student.  You make the selection, and we'll take them on as an intern, and it won't be job shadowing.  It will actually be the way you described it; hands‑on, working in each of the different departments."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18253             So of course, you know, I told the grade 12s, and Penny was the first one with her hand up, saying, "Give me this opportunity."  So we got her connected with Rawlco, and she started going on a regular basis.  I think it was every Wednesday afternoon.  Our school liaison worker would drive her over to Rawlco, their building, and she would spend a couple of hours there and she loved it, and they enjoyed having her there.  Her positive energy, her commitment, it was just a really good fit.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18254             Eventually ‑‑ and the thing is they stepped up to the plate.  They kept their word, what they said they would do.  They started a mentorship.  Not only did they introduce her to the different departments, they got her to do voice‑overs.  They got her to do little jobs in the different areas.  They actually started booking her hours as an operator, I believe, payable hours.  They got her working part time for them, and I was thinking, awesome.  That's exactly what I wanted.  That was my dream, and they stepped up to the plate and they did that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18255             So now they've come with this package of a radio station staffed by Aboriginal people and, especially, they told me a substantial chunk of that staff will be youth, and this is exactly what I had dreamt.  You know, this is like taking that to that next level.  This is what I want to see.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18256             And that's why I'm here supporting what they're doing because it's talking about not just jobs for Aboriginal youth.  It's talking about careers, something portable they take with them.  Even if they don't stay with this new station, they could go somewhere else.  And with that training, that expertise, they have employment.  They have a career that goes with them wherever they live.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18257             Yeah, I don't know what else to say, just I see only good here.  I see good opportunities so I'm looking at the positives.  I'm thinking of my students, and this is what I'd always hoped for them, something in this vein.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18258             So here it is.  They're presenting it here and now.  The opportunity is here, and I hope with all my heart that you'll give them this licence.  So I thank you for listening to me, Madam Chair, Members of the Board.  And if you have any questions for me, I'll be glad to answer them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18259             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Howe, it seems to me that there are many applicants for radio stations in Saskatoon and they're all talking about offering scholarships for kids, particularly Aboriginal kids.  And it sounds to me like you're the kind of guy they should come to and say "Look, we've got seven scholarships.  You know, is there somebody you want to choose".  But what you're saying is you need more than that.  You need broadcasters to be interested in interning, I guess, and then mentoring?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18260             MR. HOWE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18261             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are there ‑‑ do you still teach media studies?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18262             MR. HOWE:  No, the school, at this time, has discontinued the program just out of lack of student interest.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18263             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh.  Okay, what a shame.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18264             MR. HOWE:  Yeah, I agree.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you have any kids who went on other than Penny or ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18266             MR. HOWE:  No, because after that year, the media studies class was discontinued, and it didn't make a good fit.  Like, my other classes, English or whatever, and convincing the principal "Can I take my news class to Rawlco for a tour" didn't make sense so, no, it didn't continue.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18267             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  Okay, thank you.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18268             MR. HOWE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18269             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18270             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18271             And that ‑‑ this completes the list of the appearing interveners, therefore Phase II.  We're now ready to proceed to Phase IV.  And perhaps before we start, I'd just like to enter on the record a couple of documents that were filed with the panel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18272             One of them is AVR's schedule of commitments to be received by the applicant, AVR, from third parties, from 2006 to 2012.  This will be added to their application.  The other one is the response to ‑‑ by Rawlco during their intervention, questions that were asked of the panel with respect to their Edmonton and Calgary application costs, as well as the staffing costs with respect to their Edmonton radio station.  This document has been filed with the panel in confidence.  Therefore it is not available to the public.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18273             We are now ready to proceed to Phase IV, Madam Chair, and we have been advised last night by Jim Pattison Broadcast, they will not appear.  Therefore the next applicant, their reply to interventions, would be Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Inc., if they are wishing to appear.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18274             THE SECRETARY:  Gentlemen, if you could just, again, please introduce yourself for the record and then you'll have ten minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18275             Thank you.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18276             MR. RAWLINSON:  Gordon Rawlinson with Rawlco Radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18277             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Elmer Hildebrand, 629122 Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18278             MR. RAWLINSON:  So I'd just like to just clarify a couple of things.  Number one, we did not send out a press release.  Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting did not send out a press release.  There was a newspaper story which was run shortly afterwards.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18279             Second thing is, is that shortly after we filed, we called both AVR and Missinipi Broadcasting and said what we were doing and said, "Would you like us to send a copy our application?"  And they said, "Yes".  And so we sent a copy of our application to them, and I spoke to Deborah Charles, the chairperson of Missinipi and said, "So what did you think?"  And she said, "Well, there was mixed reaction amongst our board.  Some people were okay and some people weren't ‑‑ were unhappy."  And I said, "Really?  Well, maybe we should get together and talk about it."  I was actually quite surprised ‑‑ maybe naively so, but I was quite surprised that they would be ‑‑ I thought they'd be ‑‑ think this was terrific.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18280             So we arranged a meeting, set a time for a meeting, and then Mrs. Charles had one ‑‑ somebody who worked for her call me and say, "So what exactly are the points that you want to make in the meeting?"  And I said, "Well, gee, I don't know what you mean.  Would you like me to send a copy of the application to you to?"  And he said, "No, I've got that.  You know, what is it you want to say in this meeting?"  And I said, "Well, actually I don't have anything to say.  I thought that the purpose of the meeting was for you to tell us what your concerns were."  And he said, "Okay."

LISTNUM 95 \l 18281             Somehow that got misinterpreted back to Ms Charles that we did not want to meet, and she cancelled the meeting.  And that was very unfortunate and that's all we know, but that's exactly what happened.  And I was ‑‑ it was me personally doing this, so I know exactly what was said and what wasn't said.  And so I'm sorry that there's been ‑‑ that's there's some ‑‑ been some miscommunication.  We'd be happy to meet with them at any time, and so I guess that's all I have to say about that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18282             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18283             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18284             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18285             We'll now proceed to the next applicant, the Aboriginal Voices Radio, if they wish to appear in this phase?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18286             THE SECRETARY:  Again, if you could please introduce yourself for the record?  And you have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18287             MR. HILL:  Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, colleagues and broadcasters and ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jamie Hill.  I'm the president of Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18288             I want to thank the many positive supporters who took the time to convey their support for the AVR application.  I especially want to thank May Henderson of the Saskatchewan Indian & Metis Friendship Centre who travelled from Saskatoon to contribute to this process.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18289             I also gratefully acknowledge the support of Phil Fontaine, the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations; George Erasmus, co‑Chair of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People; Beverley Jacobs, President of the Native Women's Association of Canada; Vera Pawis‑Tabobondung, President of the National Association of Friendship Centres; and other interveners who supported our national Aboriginal radio service.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18290             We would also like to dispel any suggestion that AVR does not have the Saskatchewan Native community.  The FSIN has been supportive of AVR in the past, and the Commission will have already noted that AVR received the positive support of Perry Bellegarde, former Grand Chief of the FSIN and Regional Chief of Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18291             Not on your file, but contained in a letter I received today from Morley Watson, the current FSIN Vice Chief, is the following statement:  "The FSIN would like to state that we fully support the application of Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. to receive licences to broadcast in Saskatoon and Regina.  The FSIN continues to support the AVR vision of a much needed national Aboriginal radio service, and warmly welcome you to our territories and wish you success."  End of quote.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18292             He also indicated that he was sorry he could not participate in the Commission's hearings.  You will appreciate that FSIN has been engaged in the ‑‑ in its election processes.  We would be pleased to supply a copy of the letter to the hearing secretary should you wish.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18293             We are delighted to have received strong support from such stars of the Aboriginal Canadian music scene as John Arcand, Donny Parenteau, Eekwol, and Andrea Menard.  They understand the value of a national Aboriginal radio service both to their own development as musicians, but also to the Aboriginal communities from which they come.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18294             Finally, we want to comment on two proposed conditions of licence, namely the spoken‑word condition of licence and the local programming condition of licence.  Our goal is to have a common set of COLs for all of our stations.  This would include both Regina and Saskatoon, should you approve our applications, and the four stations up for renewal in the next item today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18295             We are happy to have that conversation in the context of our renewals, and we would understand that whatever you may decide would apply equally to Saskatoon and Regina.  From a procedural point of view, we just want to keep the door open to the clarifications, modifications that might result from that discussion and which might, therefore, affect our Regina and Saskatoon applications.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18296             More specifically, there was some interpretation issues related ‑‑ relating to our spoken‑word condition as regards the staff monitor of a week of AVR programming.  Please note that we propose no change to the current COL regarding spoken word, nor do we think any deviation from the framework set out in your Public Notice CRTC 2000‑4 is required ‑‑ 14 is required.  We can have a more fulsome discussion of our thinking now or during your consideration of the next item, as you see fit.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18297             Secondly, we spoke to the Chair yesterday about AVR's proposed condition of licence relating to local programming in each of Regina and Saskatoon.  During our preparations for the next item, we arrived at the conclusion that we should be looking to achieve symmetry in AVR's local programming commitments in each of its markets.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18298             AVR would like to use 25 percent of the broadcast week as that standard.  That translates into 31.5 hours per broadcast week.  That is the quantum we therefore also propose for each of Regina and Saskatoon.  It is also the amount that we will be proposing for each of Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Ottawa in our next appearance.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18299             Finally, both the local programming commitment and the spoken‑word commitment are very large and represent significant commitments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18300             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18301             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you actually proposing that in a renewal, after seven years of a licence, that you would get another two years to start local programming in some of these areas?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18302             MR. BUCHANAN:  Yes, we are.  The two years was ‑‑ went back ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18303             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just wanted to know because I didn't realize that was an issue in the renewal.  You're very lucky, Mr. Hill.  At the first hearing you said yes to one COL.  You came back at the second hearing about that very COL, and your lawyer said yes to that one.  And now you're having a third hearing.  This is the last hearing on AVR, so make sure that what you agree to, you know what you're agreeing to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18304             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18305             MR. HILL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18306             THE SECRETARY:  We'll now call on the next appearing applicant, Radio CJVR Ltd., if they wish to appear in this phase?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18307             THE SECRETARY:  Again, if you can ‑‑ just for the record, if you could just introduce your panel, Mr. Singer?  And you'll have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18308             MR. SINGER:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18309             I'm Ken Singer.  I'm vice president of broadcast operations for Radio CJVR.  With me I have, from Insightrix Research in Saskatoon, Corrin Harper and Jessica Schnell.  Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18310             Thanks for this opportunity to appear before you throughout the this week and for your fairness in these hearings.  We'd like to thank the individuals and organizations who wrote letters of support on behalf of our applications heard this week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18311             And just now I'd like to just address some comments made to some of the earlier presentations this morning.  We commend Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand for their excellent level of service they provide to the Saskatoon community.  As noted earlier, we feel that such support for community organizations will only increase with the addition of more broadcasters in the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18312             Community service is at the heart of CJVR's being.  It's not dependent on the level of competition.  It's more about the commitment we made in obtaining our licence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18313             Regarding the letters, there are many letters solicited by the two Saskatoon broadcasters of ‑‑ letters of support.  We wonder how many of these letters would have been written had the writers been aware of Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildenbrand's plans for a seventh licence in the market, namely the Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Trust.  Many of these letters were written just prior to the August 31st publication of the applicants for new licences in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18314             Finally, concerning the comments about the research used in our application, we stand by the findings that Insightrix Research provided.  Regarding out‑of‑market tuning, the survey asked 500 respondents aged 18 to 55 which stations you remember listening to in the last seven days.  The response was clear that 21.6 percent indicated tuning to out‑of‑market signals from Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, as well as satellite and Internet tuning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18315             I will ask our researchers from Insightrix to further comment on those findings.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18316             MS SCHELL:  Thanks, Ken.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18317             Madam Chair, that's correct.  The question was, "Please tell me all the stations you remember listening to in the past seven days", so there was a time limit.  I think it was alluded to that it was sort of an open comment, but there was "within the past seven days".

LISTNUM 95 \l 18318             We did also ask another question said ‑‑ that said, "Which one station is your favourite, that is the radio station you listen to most often?"  And so again, not looking at their ‑‑ what their second choice is and whether that's in market or out of market, but in terms of their favourite station, about 12.2 percent indicated that their favourite station was out of market.  So with 22 percent saying they've listened in the past seven days to an out of market station and 12.2 percent saying their favourite station is out of market, I think that sort of is a little bit higher than what was alluded to earlier.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18319             So I also just want to remind the Commission, as well, that there was a number of other statistics that came out of our survey which 70 percent indicated that they would listen more often if programming was available ‑‑ other programming was available, if they liked it and it was available, 65 percent agreed or strongly agreed that there is currently similar programming being offered among the stations.  And 50 percent on a scale of 1 to 5 rated 3 or less, indicating that they were not totally satisfied with the choice of stations.  So 1 being totally not satisfied, 5 being totally satisfied, 50 percent rated it 3 or less.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18320             So it's ‑‑ I think I just want to remind the Commission there's other results in here as well, but in regards to that 22 percent, we wanted to clarify that too, so I think that's it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18321             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18322             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Mr. Singer, Miss ‑‑ will you agree that different surveys will have different methodology and arrive at different results?  And I'm here asking the question and looking at the results that BBM has released for fall of 2005.  BBM obviously is a survey of ‑‑ I don't know how many persons or households are surveyed in the Saskatoon market, but it is a diary system and ‑‑ on which people record their listening habits, and so it is a different methodology and they could arrive at different results.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18323             MR. SINGER:  Commissioner Arpin, I do certainly agree that different methodology there will produce variances for certain.  My experience with BBM is that I always feel the sample sizes are fairly small, and I ‑‑ as I say these are two totally different methodologies.  These are our findings.  We based our comments and our applications based on the research as submitted.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18324             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate how ‑‑ that there was an issue made this morning that ‑‑ regarding your own results.  I understand ‑‑ your own methodology, I have no problem.  I understand them and how you did arrive as those numbers.  The one thing is that the Commission has to weigh that ‑‑ those ‑‑ all those studies that have been made by the various applicants and ‑‑ in using its benchmark, and the benchmark is ‑‑ for the radio industry has been the BBM for the last 60 years.  And so that's why I'm asking my question, and you gave me my answer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18325             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18326             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18327             MR. SINGER:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18328             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18329             So we'll now proceed with Touch Broadcasting Canada Inc., if they'd like to make a presentation at this stage?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18330             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. Hunsperger, you have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18331             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18332             First of all, and we want to thank the interveners that sent in letters in support of our application.  We also want to thank many of the broadcasters who also support our application in coming into Saskatoon.  And I also want to thank Madam Chair and the Commissioners and the staff for the marathon that you've had this past week, and we pray that you have a safe trip and a restful week next week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18333             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18334             THE SECRETARY:  And we will continue with Standard Radio Inc., if they wish to come forward?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18335             THE SECRETARY:  Ms Taylor, you can go ahead anytime.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18336             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18337             Madam Chair, Commissioners, first of all, this has truly been a public process this past week and has required an extraordinary amount of attention and mental energy.  I'd like to thank you for the obvious attention you paid our file, as well as those of our colleagues.  It's been a complex hearing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18338             Since the Rawlco/Golden West intervention this morning was not restricted to just the Saskatoon portion of the hearings, I appreciate this time to just make a few general comments on the discussion that went on earlier this morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18339             As a former resident of Saskatchewan, I know first‑hand what a special place this province is to live in and I do believe that there may be no better place to raise a family.  Acknowledging that Saskatoon and Regina are distinct and that Saskatchewan is different, and agreeing quite frankly that the local broadcasters in this city are very imbedded in their community, it puts us in the very uncomfortable position of pointing out that, while all that may be true, they certainly don't own the market on excellent and thorough public and community service.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18340             We, too, pride ourselves on these very principles and point to our many markets ‑‑ some smaller, some larger ‑‑ as proof, and we do spend considerable time, energy and finances.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18341             On the economics discussion, is there population growth?  Yes, in both Regina and Saskatoon.  Modest of course, but it's on the right side of the ledger, and we believe that speaks volumes, particularly since Alberta, with its now chronic worker shortage, is right next door.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18342             Are the GDP retail sales and income levels growing?  Yes.  I think we agree on that.  How much and whether it will sustain is, I believe, where the largest disagreement comes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18343             Standard Radio is a private company that's anxious to start what we believe could be a very long history here.  We aren't coming into this market or hoping to come into this market because it will make us rich ‑‑ quite the opposite.  However, we do want to do business here.  We want to contribute, to help, to strengthen, to grow, and we have gone to what we believe are considerable lengths to do so without an adverse effect on the incumbents.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18344             We do bring more than musical diversity.  We do bring a fresh editorial voice and a new way for advertisers to speak with their prospective clients and a fresh willingness to assist those voices in the community whose voices still do remain unheard.  Because of that, in addition to Standard Radio, we do believe that AVR is also a worthy applicant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18345             So finally, thank you very much.  And on behalf of Standard Radio and Gary Slaight who was unable to attend these hearings this week, we do appreciate your efforts and your attention.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18346             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm going to get whiplash checking out if my ‑‑ any of my colleagues have anything to say.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18348             Thank you, Ms Taylor.  We have no questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18349             THE SECRETARY:  Mrs. Chair, we'll now proceed with Harvard Broadcasting Inc., if they wish to come forward at this time?

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 95 \l 18350             MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, my name is Bruce Cowie, vice president of Harvard Broadcasting.  And with me, on my left, is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc., and our legal counsel, Rob Malcolmson on my right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18351             Let me begin by thanking you and the Commission staff for all your patience and assistance this week.  At the outset, many wondered how you would get through this agenda in the prescribed time, and here we are near the end of the phase.  I believe congratulations are in order for all.  Out of respect for that pace, we will be very short in our conversation with you this morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18352             We would like to briefly respond to the intervention by Rawlco, Hildebrand and Goldstein.  Madam Chair, you asked Mr. Goldstein to provide data dating back to 2000 for three economic indicators.  We have not seen what Mr. Goldstein has provided, and perhaps it has not yet been filed.  What we can tell you is that we've obtained this data from Conference ‑‑ from the Conference Board, and it shows growth in Saskatoon in each of those indicators.  Population has grown by 2.7 percent since 2000.  GDP has grown by over 20 percent since 2000, and retail sales, a key indicator when it comes to predicting radio advertising revenue, has grown by 40 percent since 2000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18353             Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, this is factual, reliable, long‑term data, and what it shows is significant growth in this market since the year 2000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18354             Combine this indicator with another key economic indicator, economic diversity, and it's clear that the Saskatoon market is growing and is highly diversified.  As you noted, Madam Chair, the Conference Board of Canada ranked Saskatoon at .93 for diversity, with 1 being the perfect score.  In fact, Saskatoon ranked second in the entire country in this key indicator.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18355             Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand say there is no revenue in the market to support a new entrant, yet Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand also say that as applicants for a new licence in Saskatoon, that they will be applying.  And the final projections filed by that application project $9.3 million in revenue over the first licence term.  Suffice it to say, there's fundamental contradiction here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18356             And finally, there's the issue of impact.  During his intervention, Mr. Hildebrand admitted that a youth oriented format would have the least impact on his station.  Mr. Rawlinson was less clear on the point, but the fact that Rawlco and Hildebrand have themselves filed an application for a new youth oriented licence would seem to suggest that this format would have the least impact on their existing services.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18357             Madam Chair and Commissioners, we ask you to take all of these factors into account when deciding whether to issue a new licence is Saskatoon and we thank you for allowing us to appear today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We have no questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18359             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18360             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18361             And I would ask Newcap Inc. if they wish to come forward in Phase IV?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18362             THE SECRETARY:  Mr. Maheu, you have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18363             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18364             Mark Maheu for Newcap Radio.  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, I just would like to take a couple of brief moments here to, first of all, thank you for an excellent opportunity, an excellent hearing.  It's been a wonderful week.  I want to especially thank the staff and the folks in the examination room.  They've been very helpful, and things were on time, and it was very well run.  So thank you, and we applaud your efforts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18365             Newcap would like to very briefly speak to a couple of points raised by the interveners we heard earlier this morning, specifically the comments from Mr. Hildebrand and Mr. Rawlinson regarding the proposed new licence for Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18366             Mr. Hildebrand mentioned this morning, one of the points he made was that national sales in the marketplace were off this year, or off recently.  I think the number he quoted was 15 percent, and he did not mention whether or not ‑‑ and if he did, I didn't hear it, but I don't think he mentioned what trend local sales were taking in the market, only that national was off by 15 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18367             Just in thinking about national sales in a market the size of Saskatoon, based on our experience, national sales normally are about 20 percent of the radio revenue in a marketplace.  So if national sales are down 15 percent, it's 15 percent of 20 percent, so it's a small amount of a small number.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18368             To put it into perspective for you, if local sales in the market were up 3 and a half percent, that would mitigate the entire 15 percent reduction in national sales so that would level things off.  And also in a market the size of Saskatoon, or even a market like Regina, one national buy from a major client, like an agri business client ‑‑ for instance, sometimes people come in and out of radio ‑‑ one major client not buying radio during a season could make that kind of difference percentage‑wise in a marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18369             Suffice it to say that we believe that local revenue is what drives a radio station's success.  They have a certain amount of control and influence over that revenue, so I just wanted to mention that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18370             Mr. Hildebrand also mentioned that Saskatoon ‑‑ I think his quote was, "The city is one of the best served in Canada."  And I don't think there's any doubt and I don't think anybody at this hearing, especially Newcap, is here casting any dispersions about the effort in the work and the job that the broadcasters in Saskatoon do.  They do an excellent job and they've ‑‑ they build a great franchise in those marketplaces, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a number of large and popular formats missing in Saskatoon for a city that size.  And when we talk about service to the community or a community being served, that is a very important element that needs to be considered, along with spoken word and community service and community events and the good will you're building in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18371             The number one reason people come to radio in the first place, how you get them in the door is the music that you play.  And then once ‑‑ especially if you're in a music format.  And then once you've been able to build a bond with them with the music you play, all the other services that you provide build the kind of loyalty and partisanship to your brand or to your station.  So for the community to be as well served as some other markets might be, some of those missing formats need to be addressed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18372             Mr. Goldstein mentioned this morning that he expressed concern about the market's capacity to absorb the revenue lost by the introduction of new licensees.  More radio, in our experience ‑‑ and the numbers seem to bear this out.  The more radio that's available in a marketplace, especially when new stations are introduced, the bigger radio share the advertising pie gets.  And history and the facts show very conclusively that in every market of any size where the Commission has licensed new licences, when you take a look at markets that subscribe to TRAM(ph), or you could do it from the CRTC returns on markets that are not tracked by TRAM, you see an inordinate growth over the first couple of years in that market and the amount of money spent in radio well above the previous trend.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18373             And if you look at the numbers for markets like Kitchener‑Waterloo where three new stations were licensed back, I believe, in 2002, if you take a look at a recent example in Edmonton where new licences went on the air in the past 18 months, and you take a look at the accelerated radio revenue growth rates that took place in those markets, you could also see it in the annual returns that are going to be filed by the end of this month for PEI, for Halifax, for Ottawa, and next year you'll see the next same thing in Calgary.  And what we're trying to say is whenever you license new licences in a marketplace, there are more people selling radio in the market, more radio salespeople knocking on more doors, radio gets a higher profile, and new money is created for the medium.  This combined with the growth rate that we're anticipating, the economic growth in Saskatoon can more than handle new licensees in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18374             What it boils down to, just to close, it ‑‑ this proceeding about Saskatoon has made me think about something Charles Darwin said, which I think is very relevant.  And he said in the Origin of Species that the capacity for a species to survive is not dependent upon how strong you are or how intelligent you are, but rather your ability to adapt.  And we know if new licensees are granted a licence in Saskatoon, the marketplace will adapt.  The incumbent broadcasters will adapt.  New licensees will adapt as they do in every other market across Canada, and the end result is better service for the Saskatoon market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18375             Thanks very much for the opportunity to present the ideas that we did, and we look forward to your response when it happens.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18376             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Maheu.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18377             MR. MAHEU:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18378             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary ‑‑ oh, we're over.  We're done.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18379             THE SECRETARY:  We are done, Madam Chair.  So this completes the considerations of item 17 to 25 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18380             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18381             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18382             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18383             It is now quarter after 12.  If we could start at quarter after one?  I'm giving you an hour.  I think it's pretty good.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18384             Thank you very much.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1215 / Suspension à 1215

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1315 / Reprise à 1315

LISTNUM 95 \l 18385             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18386             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18387             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18388             Before we proceed to the next item, I would just like to indicate for the record that Radio CJVR has filed a letter with the panel with respect to the CTD contributions to FACTOR in respect of their Medicine Hat, Regina and Saskatoon applications.  This letter will be placed on each application file.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18389             We will now proceed with item 26 on the agenda, which are applications by Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc., AVR, to renew the licences of the Native Type B radio programming undertakings, CKAV‑FM Toronto, CKAV‑FM‑2 Vancouver, and its transmitters at Abbotsford, CKAV‑FM 3 Calgary, and CKAV‑FM 9 Ottawa, which are expiring on the 31st March 2007.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18390             In relation to application number 2006‑0244‑2, an application by Aboriginal Voices Radio to renew the licence of its Native Type B radio programming undertaking, CKAV‑FM Toronto in notice of public hearing CRTC 2006‑9, the Commission stated that it appeared that the licence may have ‑‑ that the licensee may have failed to comply with its conditions of licence that it ensure that a minimum of 25 percent of all programming broadcast each broadcast week is spoken‑word programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18391             The Commission has determined that it has insufficient evidence to assert that AVR has not complied with this condition of licence and will not address this issue at this public hearing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18392             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Jamie Hill who will introduce his colleagues.  Mr. Hill, you will have then 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18393             Please go ahead.


LISTNUM 95 \l 18394             MR. HILL:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18395             Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff, colleagues and broadcasters and ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Jamie Hill.  I'm the president of Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18396             I realize that it has been a long week for all concerned.  As this is the third day in as many days that I will have introduced our panel to you, I will simply state their names for the record.  They are Bob Wood, Roy Hennessy, Patrice Mousseau, and Grant Buchanan.  Lewis Cardinal unfortunately had to return to Edmonton this morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18397             Today we are pleased to speak to AVR's licence renewal applications regarding each of Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary.  I will begin by reiterating that the primary mission of AVR is to improve the lives of Aboriginal Canadians.  In that regard, it is vitally important for them to see themselves reflected in the media or to reverse the historical legacy and to assist in finding solutions to the problems that Aboriginal Canadians face today.  In my remarks this afternoon, I propose first to look back briefly at the past licence term and then to comment on certain issues raised by the Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18398             The Toronto station was AVR's first and was licensed in June 2000.  This was followed quickly in 2001 by the next three stations, which are each part of this review; Calgary in March, Vancouver in June, and Ottawa in October.  Between May and July of 2003, the Commission also granted AVR licences in Montreal and Kitchener‑Waterloo, and a rebroad in Abbotsford, BC.  Finally, in April of 2004 Edmonton was added.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18399             The Commission will appreciate that the AVR team was not prepared to watch immediately in all those places but responded, in some cases, to Commission calls for applications out of concern that frequencies might not exist when AVR was ready.  The Commission has been supportive and patient with AVR, and we are deeply appreciative of that.  Indeed, this is this a special week in that regard.  The Commission's decision awarding a licence to CHUM was upheld and, with it, a guaranteed 4.515 million to be contributed by CHUM to AVR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18400             Each of your decisions was accompanied by a date by which AVR had to commence operations.  While Toronto launched successfully a number of years ago, for each of the other three services under consideration today, that commencement dated represented a constantly changing target.  That date was extended by the Commission a number of times in each of Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18401             At the beginning of this year, AVR faced the embarrassing prospect of getting to the end of a licence term in each of those cities with little to show for it, but the people at AVR, including its new board of directors, persevered.  And I am pleased to tell you that we have now launched in each of Toronto, Calgary, Ottawa and Montreal, with Vancouver just around the corner.  We are hopeful that Edmonton will soon be joining them, while Kitchener‑Waterloo is slightly further down the track.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18402             The dream that we all had and that the Commission helped, by granting the approvals that it did, has now come to fruition.  The dream is not yet totally complete as we have indicated in prior licensing hearings, and as the Commission has recognized in the early days, the various markets are dependent on the network feed from Toronto until they up ‑‑ are up and running and able to supply the local programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18403             In the cases of Ottawa and Calgary, they have been on the air only four months.  While AVR's Vancouver service awaits only the FCC's response with respect to its latest frequency choice, as you know, both the Commission and Industry Canada have already signed off on that frequency, and we are ready to pull the switch.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18404             In broadcasting notice of public hearing CRTC 2006‑9, the Commission raised four issues that it indicated that it might want to explore with AVR.  These were the following:  A, a possible logging violation; B, a possible violation of its spoken‑word condition of licence; C, concern relating to Aboriginal languages commitment; D, concern relating to local programming commitment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18405             Later, in a subsequent additional notice on October 16th, 2006, the Commission stated that it also wished to address the apparent failure of AVR to file annual returns for CKMV‑FM Toronto for the years 2001/2002, 2002 to '03, and 2003/'04.  I will address each of the Commission's concerns in sequence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18406             Regarding the logging tapes, I have reviewed this matter carefully and with the staff at AVR responsible for logger tapes.  The first CD containing logger tapes that was sent to the Commission could not be opened.  The follow‑up tape that Commission staff did successfully open was missing a couple of files.  Staff was correct; it was missing files.  And the explanation is as follows:  The logging system that AVR uses is called RadioLover.  It takes an individual broadcast stream and records the audio in stereo MP3 format.  RadioLover also breaks down each individual hour and stamps the file name with the current time and date.  This system is dependent upon an Internet connection.  If an Internet connection is terminated, there is no way for the stream to record.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18407             Last fall, AVR had several technical malfunctions as a result of moving its studios.  One of these malfunctions was a drop in the Internet feed several times during the CRTC monitoring period, resulting in blank periods in its audio logs.  This was clearly a frugal but unacceptable methodology and required immediate remedial action.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18408             AVR is now logging off‑site, directly from radio transmission as well as with RadioLover.  The signal is being recorded using a personal computer, an uninterrupted power‑supply unit with 12 hours of battery life and FM receiver and software called Audio Logger Pro.  Since AVR began using this method, there have been no missed logs due to dropped Internet connections and the logs are stored off site to ensure their safety.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18409             In addition, as we have prepared plans for the construction of our network master control room, we have included the iMediaTouch logger system.  This system includes not one, but two separate logging recording systems in each city which provides a redundant logger at each station.  Should a fault occur with the primary logger, the second logger takes over the logging function.  And in the master control in Toronto, the system monitor indicates a malfunction allowing us to request immediate servicing by our local technician.  This system also allows us to perform the logging function in the master control room in parallel to each local station.  Therefore we will have four times redundancy to ensure that we have logger tapes whenever required.  This is the same system that is employed by CBC Galaxie for logging their multitude of pay audio music channels.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18410             Chair, Members of the Commission, we fully understand the critical importance of logger tapes to the regulatory process and can assure you that we have taken the necessary steps to avoid a repetition of this event.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18411             Regarding spoken‑word condition of licence, as per discussions with legal counsel during the past week, we understand that AVR's condition of licence relating to spoken word is no longer an issue from the Commission's perspective.  We are very appreciative of your efforts ‑‑ of the efforts your staff made in resolving this matter.  In any event, I can reassure the Commission that, as we speak, AVR continues to be in compliance with the 25 percent spoken‑word condition of licence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18412             We are also prepared to discuss details regarding interpretation of this environment during question period but, from our perspective, we were content with the level and content ‑‑ and content with the requirements of Public Notice CRTC 2000‑14.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18413             Regarding Aboriginal languages, as Mr. Cardinal advised the Commission earlier in the week, AVR is proud that Ron Ignace, the Chair of the Task Force on Aboriginal Languages Initiatives joined the AVR board of directors last month.  We look forward to his valued input with respect to Aboriginal language programming, among other things.  AVR remains as committed as ever to the preservation, protection and promotion of Aboriginal languages.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18414             In recent correspondence with the Commission and its applications Regina and Saskatoon, AVR indicated that it would have no difficulty continuing with the 2 percent Aboriginal music and 2 percent Aboriginal spoken‑word conditions of licence that all AVR stations are subject to.  The Commission, in the deficiency process, asked if AVR would accept the refinement of the spoken‑word commitment to ensure that the 2 percent of Aboriginal programming occurs during the broadcast day.  AVR has indicated in writing to the Commission that it accepts that change as proposed in the Commission's deficiency letter.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18415             Regarding local programming, the Commission's Notice of Public Hearing noted, "AVR's increased preference to focus on national network programming rather than its original local programming commitments."  As we have made clear this week, AVR is committed to local programming and has not applied to reduce its local programming commitments in any market.  What is true is that AVR has launched a number of stations in the last few months and is currently relying on the Toronto feed for its programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18416             The Commission has always understood that in the early going of any of AVR's stations, there would be a reliance on the programming from Toronto.  For example, in decision CRTC 2001‑627 granting AVR's Ottawa licence, the Commission stated, "In its early years of operation, the station's programming will, in the main, originate with the proposed FM radio station licence to AVR in Toronto."  This is decision CRTC 2000‑204.  "The applicant's plans in this regard are similar to those it has for other AVR radio stations recently authorized by the Commission, one in Calgary and the other in Vancouver."  Decision CRTC 2001‑172 and 2002‑314.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18417             Other than in Toronto, the stations have been on the air only a few months.  AVR will add local components to them over time, just as envisaged in the Commission's licensing decisions.  That remains AVR's commitment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18418             In our deliberations regarding this important issue, we have come to the conclusion that it no longer makes sense to have a patch‑work quilt of varying local obligations.  If we are crafting a condition of licence relating to local programming for Saskatoon and Regina, as we discussed early this week, we think it makes sense to come up with a common benchmark that can be used in each of our markets.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18419             As we alluded to in our reply earlier today, we think that a threshold should be set at 25 percent of the broadcast week which equates to 31.5 hours a week.  In our view, this new condition should be stated to come into effect no later than 24 months following the date of your decision relating to the renewals.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18420             In its recent notice, the Commission alerted AVR to the fact that it had apparently not received annual returns for AVR's Toronto signal for its several periods.  The Commission did receive an annual return for 2004/2005 and will be receiving one for 2005/2006 and can expect to receive one each and every year from now on.  As the Commission is aware, the team before you has essentially been in place for less than two years, and the news of the missing annual returns from prior years came as a surprise when we read about it on the Commission's website.  I have not been back in the office since then to investigate.  I can only indicate that it would not have happened and will not happen with this team.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18421             I do not know what we can offer the Commission at this point.  It would be difficult, potentially inaccurate and expensive now to go back as far as 2001 and start trying to reconstruct annual returns for you, but if you require us to do so, we would of course comply.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18422             Regarding Canadian content, finally I would like to end on a high note.  AVR has a requirement to air more than 35 percent Canadian content vocal music selections.  AVR is far above the threshold.  Commission staff have indicated that, by their count, we are over 46 percent.  As we have suggested earlier this week, that figure is far below the real number since AVR plays so many emerging Aboriginal artists that are not found in the Commission's database.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18423             Indeed, our staff at AVR believe that the figure is really more like 60 percent Canadian selections, and we have undertaken to work with staff to update the Commission's database to ensure that these wonderful new Canadian artists are included in it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18424             I am therefore pleased to report that the bottom line for you, Chair and Members of the Commission, is that AVR is in compliance with all of its conditions of licence and will continue to be so.  AVR proposes no changes to any of the conditions of licence in any of its markets, other than agreeing to the clarification suggested by Commission staff with respect to Aboriginal spoken‑word programming occurring during the broadcast day, rather than over the entire schedule, and to a new condition relating to local programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18425             Accordingly, AVR respectfully requests that all four of the licences be renewed from the current expiry date of March 31st, 2007 through to August 31st, 2013.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18426             I would close by saying that AVR is deeply appreciative of the support that it has received from you and we also appreciate the hard work your staff, in working through a number ‑‑ hard work of your staff in working through a number of unique situations.  Your efforts and decisions have allowed us to create the first national Aboriginal radio network in the world and we thank you, not only on behalf of AVR but also on behalf of all Aboriginal people in Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18427             We would be pleased to respond to any questions that you might have.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18428             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18429             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18430             Good afternoon, Miss and Mister.  And we ‑‑ you've already covered a good number of my questions, but certainly that being said, we'll try to have some kind of a dialogue over the experience AVR has had since being, first, authorized today and look a bit forward in your plans with regard to the future as ‑‑ well, as you said, it is the first time that AVR appears before the CRTC for a renewal of its flagship and its three other stations; those in Vancouver, Calgary and Ottawa.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18431             In a brief way, could you give the Commission some background information on the report for ‑‑ that AVR had to put in order to first implement and launch the Toronto station and the three stations involved in the renewal?  As you may understand, that ‑‑ you have had some communication with ‑‑ over the years with staff members, but for the record, the Commission doesn't know very much about what ‑‑ how difficult it was and what were the main issues and what makes you happy today that happily ‑‑ that you're up and running happily and you have ‑‑ you're on air in ‑‑ already in three markets and waiting for the FCC.  And we surely will investigate the FCC thing a bit further just to have a clear picture of what ‑‑ of what's going on.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18432             MR. HENNESSY:  The other evening as we were discussing the preparations for the launch ‑‑ or the application, rather, for Regina and Saskatoon, and we were talking back ‑‑ looking back on our brief history from when we got involved with AVR and what all we've been through and how it might have been extremely discouraging for a lot of people to face the type of adversity that we have come across.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18433             The two‑steps‑forward‑one‑step‑back syndrome seemed to be a common experience for us at many steps along the way, and it happened before we were involved as well.  But the one thing that we came away from that discussion with was ‑‑ I think it was Jamie or Bob made the statement that none of us, given our background, our experience, our, I guess, relative success that we've had in other areas of commercial broadcasting, none of us would be at this table and none of us would be continuing to put forward an effort if we didn't really believe that we were going to win, if we didn't really believe that we were on the verge of creating something that was very unique and potentially great.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18434             So that's sort of the motivation that we all have to keep going forward because it's not easy when you don't have regular commercial cash flows, when you exert a great deal of effort to generate enthusiasm and interest in support for the station and hit a wall, hit barriers, and the anticipated money ‑‑ which, in your mind, you've already spent ‑‑ you've already built the new offices and facilities in Vancouver, and then suddenly you find that that's going to be delayed again for a while.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18435             It's ‑‑ it is a real compliment to everyone here and to the staff that we have back in Toronto, that they keep their morale up, and they have.  And a lot of that comes from the belief in what we're doing and also from people associated with our efforts who encourage us to keep moving forward.  And a lot of it comes from Mr. Hill, who is the eternal optimist.  There is no one step back.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18436             MR. WOOD:  I think I could add to that, Commissioner.  We think it's tough enough to run a business when you have money, and AVR has been running on fumes for several years now.  And we would not be alive today were it not for the goodwill of this Commission and we're very grateful to the Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18437             This is kind of a banner day for AVR because we learned, I guess just yesterday, that the appeal with respect to the CHUM application for Calgary was denied.  So that gives us an opportunity to live again another day, and we shall.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18438             And insofar as some of the difficulties we've had, when the new board came into place at AVR, there were many, many things, many files that had been mishandled, were not well organized or ignored altogether.  And it's taken Mr. Hill and the board and the team that he has assembled, close to the two years that he has been on the board, to get all of that straightened out, the governance, the financial areas, assembling the right people, the team that is in place now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18439             And the team is larger than you see before you here today.  The gentleman who is helping us with our financial matters is Michael Jarvis.  He is a semi‑retired former controller of Ultramar.  He has brought a lot of the discipline to our financial area and helped to organize our systems, which has been very helpful to AVR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18440             And of course we can't say enough about the help that we've received from McCarthy Tetrault, not just in preparing for the different licensing issues that have arisen, but also in terms of helping us with our governance and getting that whole area straightened out and brought up to date.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18441             We've also got support on the engineering front from Paul Furminger who used to be the vice president of engineering for MacLean Hunter which, at the time, was the large ‑‑ one of the largest broadcast companies in Canada.  And when MacLean Hunter was acquired by Rogers, Mr. Furminger's position became redundant, and we have been fortunate to be able to have not only his experience and expertise, but his amazing network of contacts to help us to negotiate all of the things going on in all of the cities with respect to purchase of transmitters, setting up the sites, and all of the things that go along with establishing stations in markets across the country.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18442             We should say that the team also includes some consulting engineers, including Gord Henke and Associates, and Jim Multner(ph) and then there are some other people kind of on the peripheral who are helping in the community as well.  They're all terrific people and they are very, very committed to seeing this network survive and flourish and fulfil its mission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18443             We're also very blessed to have a terrifically competent, committed group of people on the board of directors of AVR.  And starting with Mr. Hill, Mr. Hill is ‑‑ has studied economics at Harvard.  He's also a very accomplished business person.  He has devoted a number of years doing a turnkey operation for the Smithsonian Institution for their magazine, which is the magazine of the American Indian.  It's the largest circulation magazine in the world.  Between that magazine and the magazine that he also publishes, called SAGE Magazine, he is a very accomplished business person and he's very sought after in the community to sit on different boards to help operate successfully different Native enterprises.  AVR is very lucky to have him.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18444             And the board that he has assembled, along with himself and Mr. Cardinal, is a blue chip group of people who are very committed and qualified in their own areas.  For example, in Calgary, the board member, Russ McLeod, is a 25‑year broadcaster who is one of the few Native success stories in radio broadcasting.  Russ worked in Vancouver on the air for many years and later moved to Toronto, eventually worked his way up to become the morning man of CHUM‑AM in Toronto.  He's on the board of AVR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18445             The lady in Ottawa, Claudette Commenda(ph) is a lawyer.  She is the executive director of the confederacy of cultural and education centres in Canada, very committed, very knowledgeable about the issues.  I could go on about the board, but I guess I'm trying to say it's certainly been a real team effort here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18446             In terms of some of the frequency issues that we've had, the frequency that we were ‑‑ originally applied for in Vancouver was not available to us.  It was awarded to the CBC.  CBC effectively said that they would support us in the pursuit of a different frequency, and once they had received their licence, we ‑‑ we're hopeful of getting their support, but I think they determined that that would not be appropriate to their interests, and so we were left really without an alternative frequency in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18447             We then went to work with our consulting engineers and found another frequency and, unfortunately, we were unable to get approval from a mainstream broadcaster for a tiny bit of interference we would cause them in the Tsawwassen ferry area and subsequently had to pass on that frequency as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18448             So now we're on to the third frequency that we are now ‑‑ have had approved by both Industry Canada and the Commission and we're awaiting approval from the FCC for a frequency in Vancouver.  AVR has spent in total in Vancouver, in terms of equipment and establishing its operations there, coupled with engineering fees on the search for the latest frequency, a quarter of a million dollars.  If we added in the consulting costs that we have spent for Vancouver, and legal and other consulting costs, just to get us to where we are now from the beginning in Vancouver, it would be close to half a million dollars and probably more.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18449             In terms of ‑‑ I should say that on the 9th of November we're very hopeful that the FCC will weigh in with approval that we can use the frequency that we have applied for in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18450             In Calgary, it's one of the few markets where there are no issues.  We are on the air in Calgary.  We've got a beautiful C‑class signal there and we're rolling Calgary.  We haven't got all the local programming on there yet, but we expect that that will come in due course.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18451             We are not yet on the air in Edmonton.  We hope that that will be within the next 90 days.  We've ordered a combiner actually through the CBC.  They've ordered it.  They're installing it.  The combiner that was delivered to them did not meet specifications.  It's been sent back, and they're working on it.  We expect to have delivery of that within the next 60 days, at which time we'll then install the rest of the equipment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18452             In Kitchener, the CBC withdrew its support for the transmission site that we wanted to use there, so we're now talking with CTV for a site to operate out of Kitchener.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18453             In Toronto, you may recall AVR had originally applied for two frequencies; the low‑power FM frequency that we now operate with, and CBC's 740 AM.  We had hoped that we would have adequate coverage by combining the two.  We were awarded only the FM frequency, not the AM, and that's okay.  We've been working on finding ways to expand the Toronto FM frequency.  We approached an area broadcaster for a waiver some years ago, weren't able to obtain the waiver, so we're back to them again, and a couple of other broadcasters in the region as to how we might expand that frequency.  We've got some new ways and some new incentives that we think we can offer them that we are optimistic will bear fruit.  So we're confident that we'll have some improvement in our Toronto signal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18454             In Ottawa, we are up and running in Ottawa.  We're operating out of a CHUM site in Ottawa with the support of the CHUM organization.  We're very grateful for their help.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18455             In Montreal, we're operating at low power.  We're still attempting to establish a site from which to broadcast at full power.  The site that we're on at low power is the Saqua(ph) site, but there's apparently code 6 issues there that won't permit us to go to full power.  So as soon as we conclude the negotiations we're engaged in right now with the site that will permit us to go to full power, we will be at full power in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18456             So it ‑‑ kind of every day it's a new day and it's new problems, but we're all very, very confident that we have a strong team here that will enable us to grow this into a tremendously useful tool for ‑‑ not just for Aboriginal people, but for Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18457             And we've never spoken about the larger or the longer‑term view, and I'll just take another few seconds here to say to you that once the network is operating in all of the markets in which it hopes to operate ‑‑ and certainly we'd be more than happy with approximately ten of those markets, but there may be one or two others that we can add on later when we have the finances, such as Thunder Bay where the Aboriginal population is fairly high.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18458             But in terms of AVR's corporate development plan, Phase 1 was to implement the network service.  Phase 2 was to launch the Toronto station.  Phase 3 was to introduce our existing stations.  Phase 4 was to complete the expansion across Canada.  Phase 5 was to establish news correspondents in our different markets across Canada.  Phase 6 is to launch a second network feed in French.  It wouldn't be identical, but it would certainly would be a feed that would provide for news and music programming 24 hours a day that would be available to existing stations in Canada that wanted to pick up that service in French.  And Phase 8 is to provide separate feeds for news and spoken‑word programs in a variety of Aboriginal languages.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18459             And one of the great promises, we think, of AVR is not just these developments and the utility that they will represent for Aboriginal people and the awareness‑building programming that we'll provide, but we've made it clear throughout to different people in the community, and certainly it's the commitment of the board, that AVR at some point in its evolution will have very high quality programming that will be available to all broadcasters across Canada at no charge.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18460             And as you will be aware, there are about 650 reserves in Canada and, of that 650, 200 of them have no radio service whatsoever.  The other 400 or so are served by the regional networks or their own independent station.  AVR is intending to make its service available to those communities at no charge.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18461             And we're currently working on two initiatives that would enable us to help them establish low‑cost, what we call, suitcase radio stations in each of their communities so that when they're into the system, coupled with all of the regional stations that are in the system, then they can plug into AVR for any portion of its programming.  If they want to downlink the hourly national news, they can do so.  If they want to downlink the national telephone talk show, they can do so.  They can pick up any aspect of AVR's programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18462             Many of them are volunteer organized radio stations where they operate for sometimes only eight hour a day.  If they wish to extend their programming to 24 hours, or to weekends, again they can do so, simply by downlinking AVR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18463             So what we're all working on here today, kind of in partnership with you, is something that's far bigger than just another licence or extending this network.  This has ramifications far beyond what we're talking about here.  Mr. Hill could tell you about some of the archiving things with elders and languages, and so on, that we plan to do on the website going forward so that we think that the mission of AVR, which is to help improve the lives of Aboriginal people, is something that we will not only be doing, but we'll be delivering in a multitude of ways so that, at the end of the day, while there have been many problems and many financing issues ‑‑ and we could go on at length about those ‑‑ we are nevertheless confident that Mr. Hill, and the team that he has assembled, is equal to the task and that we will deliver on the service that we have proposed to you, and across Canada, and that your, I guess, confidence in the ‑‑ in us is justified and that we will meet our requirements.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18464             MR. HENNESSY:  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18465             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  Thank you for that lengthy ‑‑ that introduction, but it put everything into context and it's well appreciated.  Do you want to add something, Mr. Hennessy?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18466             MR. HENNESSY:  I was just going to mention when Mr. Wood made reference to the French language service, we also are aware that there's ‑‑ not a conflict, but there's a difference between the demographics of the Aboriginal community in urban areas and the tremendous increase in the birth rate in Aboriginals is resulting in a younger population.  And we're also aware of the demographics of a radio station that is full service and that is heavily committed to news and information, and those two seem to digress because increase the talk, decrease the young audience is the result.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18467             So what I'm ‑‑ which is not to mean that we don't play the music that the younger Aboriginals are interested in, but we day‑part it and do not give a consistent 24‑hour‑a‑day service with some of the areas like hip hop and R & B.  They're featured evenings and weekends.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18468             That ‑‑ but the concept is to create another stream, another Aboriginal radio with younger hosts, and younger announcers and music aimed at that younger demographic, which would probably be served by streaming over the Internet.  Again, it's an extension like was mentioned with the French language, all originating from this resource that we are building today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18469             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18470             At ‑‑ when you appeared on Wednesday, Mr. Cardinal mentioned that Ron Hennessy ‑‑ and you had it in your text today ‑‑ had joined the board of directors of AVR.  When did he join the board?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18471             MR. HILL:  Vice‑Chair, Ron Ignace?  That's your question?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18472             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18473             MR. HILL:  That was recent.  It was the last board meeting we held ‑‑ I don't know the exact date, but my sense is that it was about a month and a half ago.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18474             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, that's sufficed.  I'm not looking for a specific date, but I ‑‑ because I was going over our own record, and our own record shows that you have nine directors, and obviously Mr. Ignace's name was not ‑‑ is not on that list.  Is it an add‑on to your ‑‑ to the board or is it a replacement for somebody?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18475             MR. HILL:  Yes, he was a replacement for one of the board members that left.  Jennifer Podemski left the board.  So I think that we should probably ensure that you have updated information, and my apologies for that, but it was quite recent, and we'll make sure that you have an updated list of who the board is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18476             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And could you tell us how these board members are selected?  Are they co‑opted or are they ‑‑ or is it what ‑‑ how do you say this?  You don't have shareholders?  You ‑‑ so how do you ‑‑ how does it happens that one day Jim Hill became board member of AVR and eventually even appointed as a ‑‑ as the president of the organization?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18477             MR. HILL:  Well, it turns out I was a replacement as well for another board member that had left.  Board members are normally elected at the annual general meeting by the community members whose job it is, in our bylaws, to elect the board.  And right now we have 25 Aboriginal community members spread across the country, and that's their job, to elect the board.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18478             Now, if someone leaves the board, then someone comes in on an interim basis and then they are up for election at the next AGM, and the term of the board members is three years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18479             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And they could be renewed?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18480             MR. HILL:  Pardon me?  Yes, they could be renewed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18481             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  They could ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18482             MR. HILL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18483             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ they could be.  And those 25 communities, what's their makeup?  They're representing various bands or various ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18484             MR. HILL:  Well, yes.  I mean it's a very diverse group.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18485             Some of them are ‑‑ for instance, before Mr. Ignace joined the board, he was a community member and he's a former chief of his First Nation.  There are ‑‑ many of them are urban Aboriginal people.  I mean, it spans the diversity of the Aboriginal experience which is there are people who grow up in cities and spend their life in the city, and I guess this is part of the Aboriginal experience.  The connection with the original First Nations or Metis community where maybe they're ancestrally originated from has, I guess, diminished in ‑‑ relative to other people in the city who grew up on the reserve and have migrated to the city.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18486             So it's ‑‑ it runs the gamut.  We do have members who speak ‑‑ are fluent in their Native language and they, I guess, practice, you know, their traditional spiritual beliefs that have come down through the generations.  And we have members who, you know, maybe are Christian in their belief.  You know, we have members who are, I guess, professional Aboriginal people, you know, working in an urban environment and we have members who, I would call them elders.  So, you know, it's a wide range of people representative of the communities, is how we look at it, and then their job is to elect directors who, you know, are going to do a good job in ensuring that AVR delivers on its mission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18487             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And who then elects the president of the organization?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18488             MR. HILL:  The president is elected on a yearly basis by the board of directors after the AGM after the first ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18489             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  At the first ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18490             MR. HILL:  ‑‑ at the first ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18491             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So does that ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18492             MR. HILL:  ‑‑ board of directors meeting after the AGM.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18493             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And that's also the mandate of the ‑‑ the way the vice president is also ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18494             MR. HILL:  Yes, all the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18495             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ nominated?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18496             MR. HILL:  ‑‑ all the officers are elected that ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18497             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  All the officers are ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18498             MR. HILL:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18499             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ are nominated after the AGM by ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18500             MR. HILL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18501             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ by the new board?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18502             MR. HILL:  By the new board, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18503             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And is it ‑‑ Mr. Ignace is replacing Miss Podemski, but do you have an automatic replacement mechanism or it could be ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18504             MR. HILL:  Well, I think the way we've done it so far is tried to identify suitable directors.  You know, we ask through the entire AVR organization, all the personnel, you know, if we lose a member potentially, you know, who out there would be suitable, you know, and would ‑‑ and we feel would do a good job and then we try to assess those ‑‑ assess them and, you know, then it goes to an election.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18505             Now, on an interim basis the board of directors appoints the interim director until you get to the AGM.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18506             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  Well, thank you very much for the information and at least from ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18507             MR. WOOD:  Oh, Commissioner, if I might just add to that that the members of the board ‑‑ the board has also been very sensitive about it ensuring regional representation, so there is a director from British Columbia, one from Calgary, one from Edmonton, a couple from Ontario and a couple from Quebec.  If the Commission chooses to grant AVR a licence for Saskatoon and Regina, then at the first opportunity, Mr. Hill has said that AVR would attempt to add to the board a member from Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18508             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  Well, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18509             At our request, you have provided the Commission on a confidential basis your expected procurement of fundings that derive from the existing CTD commitments for a new licence, and we thank you for the interest.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18510             You've also, during your ‑‑ an earlier presentation, and particularly the one for Regina, alluded to government grants.  Among them was the Ontario Trillium Fund.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18511             To your knowledge, are there other source of public and private financing?  And, if yes, are you currently working and finding long‑term commitment for their ‑‑ from these sources?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18512             MR. WOOD:  Yes, we will ‑‑ are working on that.  Actually in the last four or five months, we've certainly been focused on getting the stations on the air and preparing for this hearing but, starting on Monday morning, that will be a full‑time focus to move that along.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18513             We have met with ‑‑ recently with the Minister of Heritage who has indicated that there are different categories where we would qualify for funding and that she would assist us in the pursuit of that funding, and we intend to follow up on that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18514             Secondly, we are currently working on an application for funding from Aboriginal Business Canada.  They have a category that provides for capital expenditures to expand into other markets, so we've met with some of their officials and we're expecting that that application will be filed within the next three to four weeks, and we would have an answer on that early in the new year.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18515             And there is, ongoing, different parts of the country, for example in British Columbia, the British Columbia government recently announced, I think it's, a $200 million fund to help advance Aboriginal peoples interests in the province.  And we have a director in British Columbia, Mr. Ignace and someone else, who have a good awareness of how to access the funding for that money, and we intend to pursue that as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18516             I think the chairman mentioned at this hearing the Peace Hills Trust Fund.  We did speak to Peace Hills a few years ago, but we really weren't in a position at that point to qualify under their terms.  We believe we are now and we'll be accessing that if we can.  So, yes, we will have a full-court press going forward to pursue other funding.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18517             We also have a couple of other, what we would call, creative approaches to the financing of AVR almost in perpetuity that we are working on.  They involve very sensitive negotiations.  We can't go into detail on that right now, but we're very confident that, in the not too distant future, we will be in a position to say to you we are now able to finance all of the requirements of this network to complete its expansion and to fulfil our programming mandate.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18518             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18519             And we will remain on the revenue side of the ledger for my next question and we'll deal about sale ‑‑ advertising sales and sponsorship.  I know that you've addressed the issue during the ‑‑ an earlier appearance, but are you working with ‑‑ do you have a sales team or is it farmed out?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18520             MR. HENNESSY:  We do not have a sales team in the sense of the traditional radio station.  We have advertising agencies and some experienced radio sales ‑‑ they're actually consultants in a couple of areas ‑‑ in Vancouver, Calgary and one who's located in Windsor, and they're working with us on developing the sponsorship package.  And the last conference call we had was ‑‑ it would be about three weeks to a month ago, I guess, prior to focusing on preparing for our appearance here, and what we were doing is comparing ‑‑ we're building lists of trade associations, industry associations and Canadian corporations that have a need to reach the Aboriginal population, or a desire to reach them with a message about their organization.  And that's everything from Shell Oil wanting to inform the Aboriginal community, and those who listen to the station because they share a philosophy of the Aboriginal people, that Shell is doing its part in the oil sands, for example, recovering and refurbishing the soil after they've extracted the oil.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18521             There's those types of areas and programs that we can help them reach the community.  We can also help them in the area of employment, which would be of particular interest to the Alberta market where it's very, very difficult to find skilled or unskilled labours.  So being able to point out career opportunities, whether it's trades or educational opportunities through our programming into the Aboriginal communities, will have a two ‑‑ a double‑edged effect of helping address the problem and also helping address the unemployment and educational problems on reserves.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18522             So there's a number of those categories and groups that we have been building into ‑‑ call it our target list, and if we're going to target on the forest industry, we have our associate, Michael Morgan in Vancouver, who has done work with Aboriginal groups.  He's a former broadcaster in ‑‑ has his own ‑‑ or had his own advertising agency and he has made preliminary approaches to representatives of the forest industry, the forestry unions, and we're organizing a target list so that we can go after that segment on a ‑‑ both a national and regional scope and, from there, start generating the programming they're interested in sponsoring that also relates to the interests of the audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18523             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑ now, if we speak about expenses, the biggest expense will be obviously employees and ‑‑ now, how many employees do you have now?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18524             MR. HENNESSY:  Do we have now?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18525             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18526             MR. HENNESSY:  Well, one of the things when I got involved with ‑‑ because, with AVR, Mr. Hill is very fiscally responsible, and minimizing costs and taking use of ‑‑ or advantage of technology was a high priority.  And we did serious trimming, not something that we were happy to do, but something that was necessary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18527             We use Aboriginal talent on air and off air wherever possible.  We use freelance contract suppliers.  We have ‑‑ the national voice of the network is a ‑‑ is an Aboriginal and was a high‑profile announcer in Toronto at one time and worked at other stations in Canada, and he does a ‑‑ all of our ‑‑ the promotion voicing, that type of thing.  But we have another announcer who lives in Orillia and does voice‑tracking for us from there.  So these contracts ‑‑ if I include the freelance contract plus the staff that we have on site, I think we are probably breaking ten.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18528             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Altogether?  Including ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18529             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18530             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ including management, traffic, accounting?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18531             MR. HENNESSY:  The old joke about a staff meeting in the phone booth rings true.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18532             MR. HENNESSY:  Now, we have a ‑‑ when I say ten, I mean there are others that ‑‑ we have syndicating programming that is supplied to us at no charge.  There's a health show that we pick up that is ‑‑ comes from AIROS.  It's American Indian Radio on satellite.  It's actually funded in New Mexico and created in Alaska, I believe, and deals with health issues specific, or of major importance, to all Aboriginals in North America.  We'll pay for that show and, you know, certainly there's a team that puts that together that we're not responsible for.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18533             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Obviously they are not your employees.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18534             MR. HENNESSY:  But our goal, when we put together our business plan for the network when it is up to speed and fully financed, we are talking in the area of 40 to 45 employees.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18535             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Altogether, that ‑‑ when you're ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18536             MR. HENNESSY:  In that ‑‑ it's at the Toronto production centre and in the administration, the management side, and then of course there will be the satellite pods of staffs in each of the communities, and those will be approximately five people in each community in the initial few years.  Hopefully we can build that to larger as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18537             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑ now, if we start talking about current programming, as I said earlier, I did check your website and ‑‑ to have a descriptor of your programming, and also you provided us with a list of other content.  But in looking at it, I note that you have a call‑in show called Native America Calling that is run on 30 stations.  That ‑‑ that's an American program or is it done out of Toronto for all of North America or is it the other way around?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18538             MS MOUSSEAU:  It actually originates on the AIROS network that Mr. Hennessy was talking about earlier, but the content itself comes from both U.S. and Canada.  They have quite a few of callers from Toronto and across Canada ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18539             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Because they have ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18540             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ on the air.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18541             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  They ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18542             MS MOUSSEAU:  I've been on ‑‑ I've been ‑‑ actually done the talk show myself as well, so it's shared.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18543             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Oh, it's shared, so they are components of the programs that are, well, uncertain because I say ‑‑ it's every ‑‑ it's on every day of the week, so there's something ‑‑ some days that it's done out of Toronto and other days it's done out ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18544             MS MOUSSEAU:  No, it's always done out of the U.S., but content and callers and guests come from ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18545             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Other ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18546             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18547             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  And they are providing the audience with an 800 number so that the callers will get to them?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18548             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, they do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18549             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  They do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18550             MR. HENNESSY:  Again, it's the ‑‑ our plan, as we've discussed over the last week, is to have a two‑hour national Canadian Aboriginal talk show.  In the meantime, we want to give access for the exchange of opinions and ideas in the most inexpensive way we can, and free is the best we've found so far.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18551             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  If I'm taking your program grid, at least the one that I've got through the Internet, could you tell me which one are syndicated program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18552             MS MOUSSEAU:  Unfortunately the schedule you have is of course out of date, but I can tell you what some of the programmings ‑‑ programs are that are syndicated.  We have the Native American Calling that we were just speaking about.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18553             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18554             MS MOUSSEAU:  We have American Indian Living, and that is the health show what Mr. Hennessy was talking about.  Originally AVR in fact did produce our own health show.  I was the host of that, as well as we had an Aboriginal doctor here in ‑‑ or sorry, there in Toronto, that took part in that.  Unfortunately he became unavailable, so because health, of course, is such an important issue, we went to AIROS.  They have a national network in the U.S.  It's not really a network.  It's a satellite feed but ‑‑ asked them if they had something available, and that's why we're using American Indian Living at this time for our health programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18555             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And those are the two syndicated programs that you have currently on your grid?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18556             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.  The only other one would maybe be considered syndicated would be the Metis Show.  It is generated from here in ‑‑ from in Toronto by someone who works for AVR, but we also offer it for free to Metis FM, which is an Internet based radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18557             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But it ‑‑ that's ‑‑ but that's not produced by AVR but produced by someone who is a contributor, a regular contributor to AVR?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18558             MS MOUSSEAU:  That's correct.  He provides programming for us once a week for free.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18559             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  From ‑‑ in your original plan, you were planning to have programming also to cater to the Natives that were coming from Spanish country ‑‑ or Latin country.  Not Spanish, but Latin country and have programming in Spanish.  Have you done so?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18560             MR. HENNESSY:  It's part of the music content of ‑‑ in particular in the afternoon program going global, there's a large segment of music from South America, Latin America that addresses the Spanish community.  We are not doing any Spanish language programming at this point in time.  Again, those are our options when we expand our vision to the indigenous world, that we can look at in the future.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18561             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And that program is daily and has a duration of four hours?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18562             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18563             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You're quite busy because I ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18564             MS MOUSSEAU:  I'm the host of that as well, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18565             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  On top of being here today and now ‑‑ and I see your name coming quite often on the program schedules so I think you're surely quite busy.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18566             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes.  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18567             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑ in all the other programs that you are ‑‑ for which we have a descriptor, AVR Art Review, Red Tales, Earthsongs, At Issue, Women's Round Table, Wisdom of the Elders, and Heartbeat, UnderCurrents, All Request Show, Show in the Morning are done via ‑‑ in Toronto ‑‑ or produced in Toronto out of your facility?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18568             MR. HENNESSY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18569             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18570             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Put your mic on.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18571             MR. HENNESSY:  I'm sorry.  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18572             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, yeah.  The ‑‑ are some of the ‑‑ or another thing on your program grid, that some of the titles are sometimes repeated, it is the same ‑‑ I'm taking Heartbeat as an example on Saturday and Sunday, and also on some weekdays, Monday, Wednesday and Friday.  Is it ‑‑ are they a repeat of the same program or is ‑‑ are they unique original shows or is it ‑‑ there's one original and it's repeated four times during the week?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18573             MR. HENNESSY:  Usually they're original content on each program.  The title just indicates the theme for the program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18574             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18575             MR. HENNESSY:  Other ‑‑ for instance, the weekly art review, we do repeat that program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18576             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  While you appear for Regina and Saskatoon, we ‑‑ you spoke about AVR weekend.  I note that on your program grid for Toronto you have AVR show in the morning and AVR weekend.  Are the AVR weekends compilation or repeats of the show of the morning or are they totally original programs?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18577             MS MOUSSEAU:  Some of it has elements of important or very funny bits that happen during the week, but generally it is unique on the weekends as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18578             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay.  And you are also still broadcasting in French, 11 p.m. to ‑‑ from 11 p.m. to midnight on Sunday?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18579             MS MOUSSEAU:  Yes, we are and we are in fact broadcasting our French language program on Monday at 10 p.m. as well, until 11 p.m.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18580             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you have a French‑speaking host?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18581             MS MOUSSEAU:  Not really at the moment we don't.  We're just running the music, so we're looking ‑‑ we're actually looking at someone right now who not only can speak French but can also speak Cree and English, so it could really help ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18582             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So it could ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18583             MS MOUSSEAU:  ‑‑ flush that program ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18584             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  ‑‑ it could do something else.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18585             MR. HENNESSY:  One of these ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18586             MS MOUSSEAU:  We could use him on many of our programs.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18587             MR. HENNESSY:  As you said, you see Patrice showing up on the schedule a lot.  When I said ten, I didn't count her five times, but that's ‑‑ certainly could be done.  A couple of months ago, as we started in anticipation of the sign‑ons in our leading up to putting out the news stringers and developing the programming, we ran an ad looking for talent in broadcast dialogue and received ‑‑ it was interesting the pattern of response that we received.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18588             We did have several calls from Montreal and people in Montreal excited about the idea that the station ‑‑ "Where is it?  I can't hear it."  Stand by, you know.  And the fact that we were thinking of doing programming in French and creating a French component and that they are ‑‑ there's certainly an interest there and there are some Aboriginal talent broadcasters who expressed an interest.  Same in Ottawa.  Vancouver was ‑‑ there was a tremendous response there.  They basically wanted ‑‑ maybe they should do the ‑‑ half of the station anyway.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18589             So we're going to have an interesting time when we begin to put together the network as we perceive it because, in our discussions, we really do talk about having the afternoon show originate with a Vancouver announcer and bringing part of that West Coast perspective and maybe it's mid‑day's ‑‑ when the talk show ends, maybe the mid‑day's originates from the prairies.  Maybe we move it to different cities in different weeks.  We have that flexibility with the technology that we're employing and certainly the interest for ‑‑ from the Aboriginal applicants tells us that we will be able to do that in all the cities that we're going to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18590             MR. HILL:  Mr. Vice‑Chair, if I could add a couple of comments to, I guess, the general line of questioning?  One thing, I think, that distinguishes AVR is it is a non‑profit and, therefore, I know the conventional model regarding programming is to, you know, optimize the programming so that there is a surplus at the end as far as what the financial situation is, you know, which would be earnings.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18591             AVR, because we are non‑profit, we don't really have earnings, so what we would do is we would utilize the revenues that we're able to build, you know, and focus ‑‑ we would focus them on programming to the greatest extent possible once we're able to put the infrastructure in place to be able to broadcast in all the cities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18592             So the quality of the programming and the type of programming that we do is dependent upon your financial success as we move forward and try to build a national radio service financially, and that's the challenge that precedes getting the cities on the air ‑‑ that precedes getting cities on the air and developing programming.  So we do aspire to ‑‑ for instance, we have, you know, some American content.  We do aspire to have, you know, almost all Canadian content.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18593             Now, the Aboriginal people do, you know, look south of the border because the border, you know, goes up the middle of some traditional Aboriginal communities or ‑‑ and large territories, so there is, I guess, an affinity to ‑‑ as far as relationships south of the border with Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18594             And, you know, just historically, we're aware of our history of ‑‑ as ‑‑ you've probably heard the term "Turtle Island".  It is the Americas, and there are relationship that, you know, go back generations across the Americas, so this is the type of thing you'll see in the programming that we do.  We do support the type of programming where we are getting into some of the Latin world because there are Aboriginal people there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18595             But I would say I think we're doing a great job as far as the programming, but we do have aspirations to approve that and to ‑‑ we've actually talked about different eras that we want to go through as far as our programming.  We have talked about ultimately where we want to be, financing permitted, because we have this idea of the premium Aboriginal service.  And it's a little different than what we're seeing right now because the programming is dependent upon the financial wherewithal of AVR but, you know, we're working very hard to build the situation financially so that we can continue to improve the programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18596             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18597             I had a long list of question on compliance but I appreciate the ‑‑ your introductory remark and the answer that you gave on all the issues of logger tape, annual return, spoken word, music and everything.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18598             So flipping the page quickly ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18599             But I will have ‑‑ you've already talked about it, but I'm keeping the last question that I had, which was ‑‑ is can you assure us today that your station, Toronto station is in full compliance with all the existing conditions of licence?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18600             MR. HILL:  We are in full compliance.  That's what we're all aware of.  We've talked about it, and I have to tell you that the team are committed to ensure that we are in full compliance going forward into the future.  And, of course, as the CEO of Aboriginal Voices Radio, I have to give my personal commitment that I will endeavour to ensure that we remain in compliance with all of your regulations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18601             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'll now talk about the usage of Aboriginal language, and there are the existing conditions of licence, but I know that there has been correspondence between staff and AVR regarding the minimum requirement for spoken language.  I note that you're ‑‑ in the letters that you've ‑‑ you say that you've consulted with Mr. Ignace ‑‑ Ignace?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18602             MR. HILL:  Ignace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18603             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Ignace.  Obviously in ‑‑ French say Ignace, but I'm sure he's not French.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18604             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Ignace.  So I have to ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18605             MR. HILL:  And he's fluent in his Aboriginal language, and I'm sure there's another version.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18606             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Exactly, I'm sure.  Like this morning, we had Mr. Prokopie that she had problems with, but my psychologist's name Prokop(ph) and ‑‑ but he ‑‑ and he was Polish.  This guy ‑‑ this gentleman was an Aboriginal, but you only add a "hi" to Prokop, so she ‑‑ there was relationship between the Polish and the Aboriginal.  So she always had problems with his name.  It was ‑‑ obviously had dealt with him for some time.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 18607             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I know that there was a discussion about minimal requirement regarding the usage of various Aboriginal language, have perused through the report that Mr. Ignace ‑‑ Ignace produced on Aboriginal languages and cultures in ‑‑ it was titled, "Towards a New Beginning" that was done ‑‑ completed in June 2005 in which he is surely making strong recommendation to the language speaker to use more and more Aboriginal language.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18608             Now, I know that in the replies that you gave to staff, you suggested that you want to maintain English as the basic communication language because there are obviously too many languages and dialects and you're trying to serve the whole Aboriginal community rather than a specific group.  But could you, for the benefit of the Commission, explain why you think English is key to your group?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18609             MR. HILL