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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.


























Review of the Commercial Radio Policy /

Examen de la Politique sur la radio commerciale













HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage              140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)


May 18, 2006                          Le 18 mai 2006








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription




Review of the Commercial Radio Policy /

Examen de la Politique sur la radio commerciale







Charles Dalfen                    Chairperson / Président

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère





Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Peter Foster                      Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

Bernard Montigny                  General Counsel,

Broadcasting / Avocat

général, Radiodiffusion

Anne-Marie Murphy                 Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Robert Ramsey                     Senior Director, Radio

Policy and Applications /

Directeur principal,

Politiques et demandes

relatives à la radio



HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage          140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)


May 18, 2006                      Le 18 mai 2006





                                                PAGE /  PARA






FACTOR                                          1433 /  8193


Radio Starmaker Fund                            1466 /  8439


ANR Lounge                                      1504 /  8666


Canadian Satellite Radio                        1515 /  8747


Impératif français                              1532 /  8825


Canadian Conference of the Arts                 1557 /  8937


Evanov Radio Group Inc.                         1584 /  9110


Coalition of Nine Provincial/Territorial Music  1602 /  9229

  Industry in Process Association


Michael Fockler                                 1623 /  9345


Canadian Music Centre                           1640 /  9474


Fondation Radio Enfants                         1656 /  9591


Wayne V. Plunkett                               1681 /  9741


CPSC                                            1698 /  9837


Magda de la Torre                               1728 / 10021



                  Gatineau Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, May 18, 2006

    at 0904 / L'audience débute le jeudi

    18 mai 2006 à 0904

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 81868186             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18187             Good morning, everyone.  Bonjour, tout le monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18188             Madam la Secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18189             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci, monsieur le Président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18190             We will now call the first participant for this morning, which is FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18191             Mr. Jim West and Ms Heather Ostertag will be appearing for FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18192             You will have ten minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18193             MR. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. Dalfen and Commissioners, for granting FACTOR this opportunity to appear today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18194             My name is Jim West and I am the Chair of FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18195             Joining me today, beside me, is FACTOR's President, Heather Ostertag.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18196             FACTOR is a non‑political, non‑aligned organization and it was not our initial intention to appear at these hearings.  However, given the nature of the issues and the responses and positions put forward, it is apparent that there is confusion surrounding the important work done by FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18197             It is our goal to support this process by ensuring that the facts on FACTOR are placed on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18198             Throughout these hearings there have been many acknowledgements on the importance of FACTOR continuing its good work.  In hearing of the concerns expressed around a need for a greater transparency of how the foundation operates and where its funding is disbursed, I would like to suggest that all interested parties meet to discuss our common objective of supporting the development of Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18199             We advocate that we explore the possibility of a common administration for the various funding programs.  We would also like to see that these discussions include the possibility of redefining and reconstituting FACTOR to enable it to be the conduit for supporting the visions of the various boards of directors of these organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18200             I will now turn the presentation over to Heather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18201             MS OSTERTAG:  Thank you, Jim.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18202             FACTOR is a successful private/public partnership that has produced some very significant results.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18203             Currently, FACTOR provides funding to assist with all stages of the development of the career of an artist, from demos on through to the support of commercially released recordings.  Support is also provided to assist with the marketing and promotion of these recordings, both nationally and internationally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18204             A significant benefit for Canadian artists from this partnership is FACTOR's ability to blend the public and private funds.  Treasury Board rules do not allow for a carryover of commitments.  The carryover that occurs at FACTOR can only happen because of the blended private/public funding, which provides the artist the ability to complete projects, allowing complete freedom within the creative process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18205             Some FACTOR results include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 18206             Since April 1999, 43 FACTOR‑supported artists have received 89 certifications and over 221 various domestic awards ranging from Juno Awards to the Urban Awards to the Country Music Awards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18207             From April 1, 1999 to March 31, 2006, FACTOR has disbursed final payments on completed projects totalling $55 million.  This funding has been matched by the industry's own investment of just over $114 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18208             While FACTOR requires applications to put up minimally 50 percent of the budget, the industry has actually absorbed 68 percent of the costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18209             A national network of music industry associations that is supporting the growth and development of Canadian grassroots artists coast to coast to coast.  Through FACTOR's National Advisory Board there are two face‑to‑face meetings per year to discuss industry challenges and issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18210             It has also afforded provincial music industry associations the opportunity to network with each other as well as with other key industry people.  The exchange/access to information has supported the growth of the industry at the grassroots level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18211             Canada has become the number three exporter of music in the world.  FACTOR‑supported artists such as Nickelback, Alanis Morrisette, k.d. lang and Sarah McLachlan, are among those that have put Canada into such a significant place in the global market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18212             All of those artists have been supported by FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18213             The Nickelback story, for example:  They made a CD, took it to radio and before radio could play it, they asked them to re‑mix.  The band was out of money and unknown.  FACTOR loaned them $5,000, and in the words of Chad Kroeger, lead singer of Nickelback, "the rest is history".

LISTNUM 1 \l 18214             Since inception FACTOR‑supported sound recordings have sold over 30.2 million copies worldwide with a retail value in excess of $680 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18215             FACTOR's future plans:  Following FACTOR securing a five‑year commitment from Canadian Heritage in 2005, the board of directors had a full review of the foundation undertaken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18216             Surveys were sent to over 4,600 potential respondents and approximately 1,000 stakeholders took the time to provide feedback through interviews and on‑line surveys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18217             The following groups were included in the surveys:  the Department of Canadian Heritage; broadcasting sponsors; music industry associations; applicants (both successful and unsuccessful); jurors; the board of directors and staff of FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18218             This review is enabling FACTOR to re‑invent itself and revamp its programs in very significant ways.  However, with the business changing radically and FACTOR's desire to be sensitive to the need for change, we will continue to consult with the industry to ensure the programs remain responsive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18219             We are also aware of the importance of recognizing the need for change and that it needs to be effectively implemented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18220             We are currently developing a new website that will be even more interactive and will be available for use by the visually impaired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18221             Programs are being overhauled and new ways of interacting with the artists and applicants are being developed.  We are targeted to roll out the newly renovated FACTOR on July 1, 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18222             We will, of course, continue to consult with the industry to ensure the programs and funding we provide continue to be responsive to the rapidly changing environment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18223             FACTOR's challenges are:

LISTNUM 1 \l 18224             (1) the high level of applications not successful in securing funding;

LISTNUM 1 \l 18225             (2) the limited financial resources currently available to FACTOR making it impossible to meet full artists' needs;

LISTNUM 1 \l 18226             (3) how to effect change that results in a positive, constructive difference, not a change for the sake of change or, even worse, change that results in a negative outcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18227             Why a common administration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18228             With a common administration, there are the economies of scale to be enjoyed; as well, the benefit of ensuring that the programs provided operate at a high level of complementing other initiatives while preventing double funding of the same projects.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18229             It would ensure the funds are spread out in the most equitable fashion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18230             Why FACTOR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18231             FACTOR has a proven track record of 24 years of supporting Canadian independent artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18232             We have a solid working relationship that has had the broadcasting and music industries working together for what is best for the artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18233             We have a successful track record of managing significant amounts of both public and private funds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18234             We have a trained, experienced staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18235             FACTOR has participated in a minimum of five federal audits, the most recent having been concluded in October 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18236             A copy of this report can be found on the website for Canadian Heritage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18237             Some highlights of the audit include:

"The objective of this audit was to provide senior management with assurance on the soundness of processes and to determine where the organization is most exposed to risk and to identify which remedial actions are available and appropriate."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18238             In general, the audit team found that:

"(1) the management control framework is appropriate to ensure compliance, effectiveness and financial integrity;

(2) information used for decision‑making and reporting is timely, relevant and reliable;

(3) risk management strategies and practices are suitable to deliver the intended results and the program design and implementation reflects the objectives of PCH"

LISTNUM 1 \l 18239             FACTOR's response to submissions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18240             There have been a number of comments made in submissions to this hearing that beg our response, including those of the CAB/PriceWaterhouseCooper Report, Canadian Music Centre, Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters and Canadian Independent Recording Artists Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18241             However, due to the time constraints of this hearing process, we will only be briefly speaking to the CAB submission and specifically to their PriceWaterhouseCooper Report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18242             We would like to thank Glenn O'Farrell and the Canadian Association of Broadcasters for including the comment in their submission acknowledging that, quote:

"FACTOR may have certain reservations regarding the manner in which the data is compiled and/or presented."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18243             This is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18244             However, due to the limited time available, we are unable to cite all the errors in this report.  In the meantime, it is our view that the PWC Report does not represent an acceptably accurate assessment of FACTOR's performance in the execution of its mandate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18245             Should the Commission so direct, we are prepared to undertake the preparation of a full report identifying all the discrepancies in the PWC document.  We would however appreciate being given several days to prepare this report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18246             We direct you to the additional comments on the other submissions contained in the annex.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18247             Thank you and we welcome any questions you may have for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18248             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18249             Commissioner Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18250             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18251             Regarding the comments that you were contemplating for the CAB PriceWaterhouse Report, as you probably know, we stated at the beginning of this hearing that we were allowing up to June 12th for interested parties to file comments in response to the various submissions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18252             MS OSTERTAG:  I wasn't, but I will; thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18253             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So you have up to June 12th.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18254             If you want to make further comments also on other submissions ‑‑ I just notice that you have comments on other submissions as an appendix, but if you have attended the hearing or read the transcript and think that other comments have to be brought to the attention of the Commission, you have up to that very date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18255             If we were to ask you for some more detail, you will only have until May 29th to do so.  But replies will be allowed until June 12th.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18256             MS OSTERTAG:  We will take the June 12th date and file; thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18257             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Based on your oral presentation this morning, you mention you have twice a year meetings with various parties of the industry, which include provincial music industry associations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18258             Are the broadcasters attending these meetings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18259             MS OSTERTAG:  No.  They are ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18260             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So they are music related only.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18261             MS OSTERTAG:  It is music related.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18262             It is the challenges facing the development of FACTOR's programs and what have you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18263             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So the meeting of the minds between the broadcasters and the music industry is either at a CRTC hearing or at the Canadian Music Week annual gathering, I suspect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18264             MS OSTERTAG:  No.  We actually have a representative, the Chair of our National Advisory Board.  Whatever recommendations come out from the meetings are actually minuted, documented and provided to the board of directors where all the directors meet for two days.  And we have found that our board of directors, which is a volunteer board, doesn't have the time to be able to sit for those two days and work through a lot of this stuff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18265             Some of it is just them sharing information on how they were successful in approaching this sponsor or that sponsor for funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18266             It is at a very basic working level, not high end stuff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18267             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18268             So it is almost an introductory course to the music industry, what you are describing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18269             MS OSTERTAG:  It's a little more than an introductory level kind of conversations that are going on because what they do, one of the main purposes of the board of directors ‑‑ and for the record, we have five broadcasters sitting on our board and six music industry representatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18270             They are there for the main purpose of having disseminated information and gathered it up from their communities and the artists that are members of their organizations on the things they would like to see FACTOR address in terms of program development, all of which gets distilled, once they have discussed it as a group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18271             Sometimes one province or territory can have an idea about something, but there could be an adverse effect if that change were to be implemented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18272             So it is allowing that program development type of discussion to take place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18273             Aside from that, they take a bit of time to discuss their other challenges, not FACTOR‑related.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18274             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  If I heard you well, you have 11 members on your board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18275             MS OSTERTAG:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18276             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Five broadcasters and six coming from the music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18277             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.  We also have two observers.  We have a representative from the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, Pierre‑Louis Smith and Jean‑François Bernier on behalf of Canadian Heritage are at the table also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18278             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But they are not directors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18279             MS OSTERTAG:  They don't vote, but they are there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18280             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They don't vote.  So they are not part of the decision‑making process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18281             MS OSTERTAG:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18282             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Is the board of directors only making policy decisions or are they making financial decisions, allowing money to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18283             MS OSTERTAG:  They make both.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18284             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  They make both.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18285             MS OSTERTAG:  The board of directors ‑‑ we have a process by which there is a creative decision made, and the board of directors of FACTOR never gets involved in making creative decisions.  That is such a subjective process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18286             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  That is left to the juries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18287             MS OSTERTAG:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18288             And if you are successful in getting through a jury on the sound recording programs that are juried, the board would give you funding.  They are just going to look at the financial commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18289             But it is the board of directors that makes all the funding decisions on all of the programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18290             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  How are the members of the board chosen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18291             MS OSTERTAG:  The broadcasters have founder seats, and with all five seats that the broadcasters have on our board ‑‑ for example, with Rogers, Rogers will choose who they want to serve on the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18292             We have a six‑year rotation policy and it is really up to them who they appoint on their behalf.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18293             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So Rogers always has a seat on the board?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18294             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.  You have Rogers, Standard, CHUM ‑‑ I'm sorry, Corus and Global.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18295             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And Global.  So those five broadcasters are the only ones who can appoint directors to the FACTOR Board?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18296             MS OSTERTAG:  They actually have it amongst themselves, because at the time FACTOR was formulated we had a set of by‑laws which are also going to be revamped in June to expand it further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18297             But the broadcasters discuss amongst themselves who they thing should be ‑‑ talk to each other and talk to each other corporately and they come up with their own game plan and we just accept who they recommend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18298             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Are the appointees of the broadcasters attending the meetings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18299             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.  They are attending as many as others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18300             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So to some extent you are more successful than Musicaction, because Musicaction's problem is that the broadcasters don't go to the meeting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18301             MS OSTERTAG:  No,  We are fortunate that they show up.  You get the odd one where it is challenging for our board, because it is a minimum of 12 meetings a year and then you have your approvals meetings and stuff.  So it can get a bit challenging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18302             Actually, recently with the change of a couple of the directors on the board, it is really exciting with the new blood that has come in, and I know that their commitment and passion to supporting music I consider and say that I know because of them and their specific knowledge and expertise they brought to the table it has affected positively some artists and the funding they have gotten.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18303             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  How are the music members picked up?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18304             MS OSTERTAG:  The music industry, we have six seats there.  Four of them have criteria attached to them.  Two are appointed by CIRPA, the Canadian Independent Record Production Association; one is appointed by the CMPA.  In the same way that the broadcasters decide CIRPA decides from its board how that works, CMPA from theirs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18305             We also, with the merger of FACTOR and the Canadian Talent Library back in 1985 for FACTOR to acquire the assets of the Canadian Talent Library, whose assets were owned by the American Federation of Musicians, they actually allowed the assets to be transferred on the condition that there was a member of the AFofM that was a fully paid dues member in good standing.  So one of them has to be that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18306             The other two are voted on by the board at large.  We try to take into consideration ‑‑ in fact, we want an artist on the board, we want regional representation and we try to spread it as far as we can to encompass as many sectors of the industry as possible with the seats we have available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18307             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I may have misunderstood you, but I'm now up to eight members of the music industry.  You said there were four coming from CIRPA, one from CMPA ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18308             MS OSTERTAG:  No, two from CIRPA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18309             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Two from CIRPA, okay.  We are back to six.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18310             MS OSTERTAG:  Sorry.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18311             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18312             Heritage Canada just implemented the MEC program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18313             MS OSTERTAG:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18314             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  What kind of impact will that have on FACTOR?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18315             MS OSTERTAG:  We had actually hoped in some respect, because we are so challenged financially ‑‑ I know one of the criticisms that FACTOR gets is our low approval rate, but it is directly attributed to the fact that we have been successful in getting the word out there about the program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18316             The MEC program, when it was talked about in theory, thought it was going to free up funds at FACTOR, but in actual fact there are only six companies in English Canada that were dealing with FACTOR, so it is still not enough of a relief.  There is still more money needed for us to be able to respond to the other artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18317             I think there is a lot of confusion surrounding the program right now, and once people understand it I think things will settle down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18318             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I'm giving you an opportunity to explain what that program is, because we don't have, at least for the record, enough information about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18319             MS OSTERTAG:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18320             The MEC program ‑‑ and I'm not working for the department.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18321             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18322             MS OSTERTAG:  But from my understanding, is the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18323             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But they are not appearing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18324             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18325             My understanding is that it is there to help build the infrastructure of the larger Canadian‑owned independent record labels and they are being given envelopes of money with which they can do what they need to do to operate their businesses successfully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18326             My understanding is there is also going to be an assessment process and a criteria to ensure that they can stay in the program.  No company can get more than $650,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18327             I know there was talk that it would be a minimum of $200,000, but in rolling the program out I know there is several that are getting significantly less than that money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18328             So as a program, it is yet another one that is being launched under financed and, like everything in the music industry, we just aren't getting access to enough funds to effectively meet the needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18329             Because the concept of a MEC program ‑‑ from my understanding, and this goes back a number of years ‑‑ was pitched by the Canadian Music Industry to Heritage, but it was requesting $100 million.  When the program finally was announced they said $10 million, and then all of a sudden it became $8.5 million because $1 million was being set aside for publishers and another half a million for administrative costs in the department.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18330             So all of a sudden it is weaning down and it can, in actual fact, be quite scary for those companies that are in there, because as more companies rise up and are able to go into that program the pie is going to get even smaller?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18331             So when it started out with a tenth of what was needed, I think that there is a lot of expectation it is going to free up a lot of money, but realistically it is not enough of a change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18332             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The Heritage Department commitment towards the MEC goes up to the year 2010.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18333             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18334             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I think it is the fiscal year ending on March 31, 2010.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18335             That is correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18336             MS OSTERTAG:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18337             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  The funding to FACTOR, has it been already set up to the same date?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18338             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18339             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Or is it a yearly commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18340             MS OSTERTAG:  No.  We were suffering through that and it has caused a lot of challenges for us, but at the present time we have an agreement, a fully executed document.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18341             However, it has the proviso, as I think it is with all government documents, that it can be cancelled at any time for any reason with no repercussions on our part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18342             So how good is the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18343             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Your contract with the Department of Heritage, does it stipulate that you will need to have broadcasters' commitment to it, or direct funding from the broadcasters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18344             MS OSTERTAG:  We are committing that we have that.  Not that we will get it or maintain, but that we have to have it, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18345             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So at the time of signing the agreement obviously the broadcasters were ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18346             MS OSTERTAG:  We were completely unaware that there was the possibility of other things in the works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18347             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So the submission that the CAB makes of a Super Starmaker Fund ‑‑ obviously there have been a variety of views expressed throughout this hearing and when you read the filing of the CAB you come to the conclusion that there will be no more money going to FACTOR.  We have commitments from the CAB and the major players know that the Starmaker will provide the funding to FACTOR rather than the money coming directly from the broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18348             If that was the scenario, the money was channelled through Starmaker to FACTOR, will that impair your ability to getting the money from Heritage?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18349             MS OSTERTAG:  I can't speak to that.  I just know that Canadian Heritage has gone on record as saying that in the event that the broadcaster money is no longer being provided to FACTOR they are rethinking what they are doing with FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18350             I have actually asked them ‑‑ it's kind of a scary place to be when you hear something like that ‑‑ here are a lot of artists out there with a huge expectation what we do ‑‑ and I said, "Is this a poker game?" and they said, "We don't play games."  So I think it is a very real threat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18351             The idea that FACTOR would, after 24 years of service, be in the position ‑‑ and it's unknown because it is not clear at this point in time, how the CAB would actually funnel this money.  How do you develop programs and plan things if you are at the mercy yet again ‑‑ you need some stability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18352             We have just come through a very unstable time with the department in having one‑year contracts and the impact to the industry is very clear, it has us behind in program development.  Because if you are not sure you are going to be around in 12 months you go, "Well, what is the point in doing it all?"  It's difficult to do it when you don't know what your money is going to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18353             If FACTOR is going to continue to be effective it needs to be in control of its own destiny.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18354             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I know that Musicaction is not appearing at this hearing, it hasn't filed anything, but to your knowledge is Musicaction in the same situation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18355             MS OSTERTAG:  I don't believe so, because at Musicaction they have been recognized as the agency and are currently operating with two respective Boards of Directors with two different mandates.  They are managing the funds for both, so they know what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18356             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18357             MS OSTERTAG:  It is the complete opposite for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18358             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  But my question relies more on the commitment made by Heritage to Musicaction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18359             Or is there a commitment by Heritage, to your knowledge?  If you don't know, you don't know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18360             MS OSTERTAG:  It would be the same as ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18361             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  I guess it will be the same as yours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18362             MS OSTERTAG:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18363             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18364             When we look at your annual report one of the complaints that we are hearing is that you are only reporting top‑of‑the‑line information.  You don't give that many breakdowns or information on who get's what and how much or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18365             Is there a reason?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18366             MS OSTERTAG:  There was a reason, but also it is the first time ‑‑ we have actually very recently heard about the complaint so we are actually disclosing all of those numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18367             One of the reasons we didn't is because there is an assumption when people attach a number to a project that that is what the project costs, when in actual fact our contribution to it may only be 10 or 12 percent of the cost and it can result in there being a negative thing, "Oh, well they made that record for so little it can't be very good", and it could have hurt people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18368             In our desire to try to not let any of the information be prejudicial to a project, to allow it to stand in the marketplace on its own, we perhaps come up against some criticism, but it is our intention that our annual report that will be released at the end of June for the fiscal ending March 31st will include those numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18369             They have been available.  We were never asked for them before and understand the desire, so we are prepared to give it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18370             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Chairman, I think those were my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18371             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18372             Commissioner Cugini...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18373             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18374             MS OSTERTAG:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18375             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just relating back to your Nickelback example that you mentioned in your oral presentation this morning, I'm assuming at that time that Nickelback received the $5,000 from FACTOR you considered them to be an emerging artist, at that point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18376             MS OSTERTAG:  An unknown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18377             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18378             MS OSTERTAG:  They are not even emerging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18379             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18380             Do you, as FACTOR, have a definition of "emerging artist"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18381             MS OSTERTAG:  You know, it's an excellent question and I have heard the question has been asked in this forum a number of times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18382             It would take probably greater minds than mine to actually come up with a definitive because you can say it is the number of releases they have had, it could be airplay potential that is achieved, it could be based on number of years in the business, it could be that they are profitable.  There are many, many things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18383             But what I can do is, I can give you a real example of an artist that I think is an emerging artist to try to illustrate a bit the complexity of trying to come up with that definitive definition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18384             I was having lunch this week with a young country artist by the name of Erin Pritchard.  He is out of British Columbia.  He has been in the business quite a number of years, 10, 12 years.  A number of years ago he competed in a FACTOR and Corus jointly funded initiative called Project Discovery.  He was actually the winner of the competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18385             He has gone on, he released his first album, he got some success at radio airplay.  He has released his second album and his first single from that album went No. 3 on the Canadian charts.  He is just releasing his second one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18386             He went into a Tim Hortons to buy a coffee and there was a fan there working behind the counter, "Oh my God, it's Erin Pritchard", you know, and all excited and everything.  And he is kind of cute, so it didn't hurt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18387             Anyway, he was standing there and he was absolutely embarrassed, because he was paying for the coffee with his debit card and he didn't know if he had enough money and the card wouldn't let him pay the $1.40 for his coffee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18388             So it's like ‑‑ it's all over the map in trying to really nail it down because to me he is emerging still because he is not able to financially sustain himself and every penny he has is being reinvested back into his career.  There isn't anything left over to be able to accumulate anything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18389             All of it and then some, because he is still having to knock on our door to get the support.  So in my mind he is still emerging, yet at radio I'm sure they would say, "No, he is established now because he has had three hits on radio."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18390             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So in applying for FACTOR funding there isn't a box where someone would check "emerging" and that would put them into one category or another to receive funding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18391             MS OSTERTAG:  You do that through the programs we have where you have those artists who are applying to, say for example, our Independent Recording Loan Program.  That is a program for artists who have absolutely no distribution and they are at the very, very beginning, in many cases making their first CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18392             So we will give them up to $20,000 to get started and we give them matching production funds.  They are emerging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18393             But also you have them where some of them have distribution and they are still emerging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18394             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So Nickelback doesn't qualify any more for FACTOR funding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18395             MS OSTERTAG:  No, they are not emerging any more.  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18396             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Or for any FACTOR funding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18397             MS OSTERTAG:  I honestly ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18398             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do they still qualify or would they be eligible?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18399             MS OSTERTAG:  I doubt that they would, because the only program probably left that they would be eligible for would be touring, and on a tour you only actually receive funding from FACTOR if you are losing money.  If they are losing money on a tour, then they so need a new team working for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18400             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18401             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18402             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18403             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18404             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18405             Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18406             MS OSTERTAG:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18407             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Mr. West, in your remarks you said:

"We advocate ‑‑ we explore the possibility of a common administration for the various funding programs."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 18408             Could you expand for us, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18409             MR WEST:  You know, FACTOR has worked extremely well for 24 years and there has been a lot of talk lately about transparency of the programs and we feel we are extremely transparent in that any information requested from us is certainly available to anybody at any time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18410             You know, when you look at people applying for money right now, the way it is applied for, it could be an organization or a label or it could be the artist directly, if you are applying to FACTOR and you receive your funding then you go on to the next level of funding, which is Starmaker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18411             They are housed in two complete different places, two complete different administrations.  The dialogue has to be very close between the organizations in order to make sure there are no what people perceive to be as double dipping, you know, marketing funds that are expended.  You have to be very careful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18412             FACTOR offers marketing money as well and some of that marketing money to get to the next level is offered by Starmaker.  we want to make sure that money is not received twice, by mistake or whatever process, but it would really, really help the process if it was under one common administration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18413             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So similar to the Musicaction, La Fond Radiostar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18414             MR WEST:  That is a perfect scenario, and that is what we would have liked to have happened.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18415             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's what you have in mind discussing over the next while?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18416             MR WEST:  Absolutely, with all the stakeholders.  Sit down at a table and say, "Let's formulate something here and make it work."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18417             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18418             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18419             Commissioner Arpin...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18420             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. West, you just referred to one of the goals of having a common administration for the two funds is to make sure that there is no overlap or no double dipping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18421             Has there been any double dipping in the recent past?  Because Starmaker has only existed for three or four years now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18422             MR WEST:  I will have to defer to Heather for that answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18423             MS OSTERTAG:  I wouldn't say that it has happened intentionally, but yes, it does happen.  Currently there is a representative from Starmaker who shares information with one of my staff to compare things, but it is doubling up on the paperwork and everything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18424             Something I would like to add to Jim's comment, there is an ease for the industry if they know where to go and it is all laid out in one place, the one‑stop shopping.  It is a very complicated thing in understanding where it is that you should be going and for what and to be able to actually have it that you could say, "Okay, with the FACTOR funding it goes to here" and then "With the Starmaker money it goes to here" and then this would go to here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18425             There is a huge logic to it and I think that the success that is happening at Musicaction really speaks to why we should be doing that and we should be taking a page from their book.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18426             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18427             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Those are our questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18428             MS OSTERTAG:  I had a report.  I understand yesterday you were asking for the amounts of money radio has given to FACTOR.  You were asking one of the broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18429             I have had the report emailed to me and I printed out a copy if you want it.  It records the funding since our inception ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18430             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18431             MS OSTERTAG:  ‑‑ on what each broadcaster ‑‑ just to assist you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18432             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you hand it to Madam Secretary ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18433             MS OSTERTAG:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18434             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ we will have it on the record.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18435             Madam Secretary, would you call the next item, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18436             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18437             I would now invite Radio Starmaker Fund, Mr. Chuck McCoy, to come forward for his presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause / Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18438             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whenever you are ready, Mr. McCoy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18439             MR. McCOY:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.  I had the pleasure of being up before you yesterday in my role as a programming executive for Rogers but today I am here as the Chairman of the Radio Starmaker Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18440             I would like to start by thanking the Commission for the opportunity to appear and take part in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18441             Before I begin, I would like to introduce the members of our panel and we are fortunate to have both of our independent Board members with us today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18442             To my far right is Andy McLean and he is the founder and the Managing Director of the North by Northeast Festival in Toronto which opens next week ‑‑ a little plug‑in there for Andy ‑‑ one of Canada's most important events for discovering new music.  Andy is also an artist manager and an accomplished musician.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18443             Beside him, to my immediate right, is musician/writer/producer Jian Ghomeshi.  Many of you may know Jian from his musical career as a lead singer and songwriter in the platinum‑selling Canadian band Moxy Fruvous and more recently you probably know him from his work as a national host on CBC Television Newsworld and CBC Radio One.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18444             To my far left is Rachel Oldfield who has been the Finance and Administration Manager of the Starmaker Fund from its inception.  She is the keeper of all the statistics and financial information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18445             And next to me is our current Executive Director Mr. Chip Sutherland who, in addition to fulfilling the role of Executive Director is also the original architect of the Starmaker Fund.  In May of 2001, Chip was hired by the first Board of Directors to design the fund and he has been involved in its evolution and operations ever since that time.  He is a well‑known entertainment lawyer who has been involved in the music business in many different capacities for the past 15 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18446             Now, you have our submission, our written submission, and I thought we would simply highlight a few points.  I will do some and then I will ask Jian and Chip to say a few words.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18447             As Chair of the fund for almost four years now, I think I am first and foremost the most impressed with the mandate of the fund and how well it has worked in practice.  In some ways, I think the Radio Starmaker Fund established the concept of truly artist‑centred funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18448             The fund's primary objective is to support artists with established track records regardless of their industry structure or affiliation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18449             The secondary objective is to recognize the role of the independent record industry and how we can help preserve all forms of independent recording in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18450             When we look at the proposed funding, the first question is always how will this benefit the artist and the second question is are there any adjustments or accommodations that need to be made to ensure that this policy is fair to the independent sector.  This is how we define the artist‑centred approach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18451             Now, the interesting part of this for me is that these are all just ideas until they are actually put into practice and in practice these broad guidelines have proven to hold true to achieving our goals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18452             Here, I would like to point out some of the statistics in relation to the fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18453             Major labels receive 20 per cent of our funding; CIRPA‑independent companies receive 35 per cent; non‑CIRPA‑independent companies receive 35 per cent; and quasi‑indies ‑‑ those would be artists who own their own records but license them to majors ‑‑ they receive approximately 5 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18454             Part of this is explained by the fact that we have built in accommodation for the indies that allow them to access 2:1 funding for dollars invested, whereas major labels are only able to access 1:1 funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18455             As for the artists, as an example, I noticed this week that Black Crows were here in Ottawa and they were supported by Matt Mays as an opening act.  We are happy and proud to say that we provided the funding for Matt Mays to make that possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18456             As a broadcaster, it was also particularly important to me to see that the fund is able to foster the careers of artists that we can play on the radio.  This represents the true nature of the partnership between music and radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18457             To do that, we knew we needed to spread the funding across a broad spectrum of artists and that had to include many genres.  The result is 83 per cent of Starmaker‑funded artists received significant airplay in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18458             Finally, I would like to say a word about our administration.  I don't think I truly appreciated the full value of our website.  It is truly an amazing administrative tool and it has been invaluable to us in managing the fund and allowing us to easily adapt program and criteria for the website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18459             Now at this point, I would like to ask Jian Ghomeshi to give you some of his thoughts from an independent perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18460             MR. GHOMESHI:  Thanks, Chuck.  And thank you, if you will forgive me, I will make my comments somewhat informally or anecdotally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18461             I have been on the Board for two years and I have been directly involved in the music business for about 15 years.  I am quite proud to be part of the Radio Starmaker Fund experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18462             I think these are great days for Canadian music, for Canadian artists.  I have said that a few times as a broadcaster.  I really think, and the results are there, we are doing disproportionately great work, not just domestically but internationally ‑‑ Canadian artists are ‑‑ and I am so proud of that and I think Radio Starmaker has been a big part of that in the last two, three, four years especially, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18463             The bottom line for me is that Radio Starmaker Fund works.  It is lean, it is supportive, it is effective, it is not bogged down in administration.  It is artist‑centric, and really the artists that we look at and support and fund are quite a diverse lot, you know, both in terms of the genres and whether they are signed to major labels or independent labels or major indies, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18464             I don't think it is comprehensive.  I think that there are artists out there that don't meet the criteria to apply for this fund.  But in terms of the mandate of this fund and the artists who are at a level to be taken to the next level and become stars, whether it is on radio, sales, et cetera, I think this fund has done its job and done its job very, very effectively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18465             I will just say, as an artist, after spending many years in a band and selling half a million records and touring and doing that, to me, it comes down to ‑‑ and being a producer and manager ‑‑ it comes down to a couple of nutshell elements of what it takes to get somewhere as an artist in this country and to carry music abroad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18466             On the one hand, you have to create the content to make a record, et cetera.  On the other hand, you have to get it out there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18467             In terms of creating the content, the world has changed and we know that.  You can now make a world‑class quality record out of your basement because of new technology that you wouldn't have been able to in the past.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18468             In terms of getting it out there, we still ‑‑ it still takes resources, it still takes support, it still takes funding, marketing, promotion and touring, and that is where Starmaker has come in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18469             Chuck mentioned matinees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18470             We could look at an artist like Joel Plaskett on the east coast who is touring with Ottawa's Kathleen Edwards right now in the States with Starmaker support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18471             We could look at a band like Metric who is an underground critically acclaimed band from Toronto that, with the support of Starmaker, has gone on to open for the Rolling Stones at Madison Square Garden and do effective things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18472             So in a nutshell, I think from an artist perspective, I am proud to see what this fund is doing in carrying artists at a certain level to the next level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18473             MR. McCOY:  Thank you, Jian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18474             Andy would be, I know, happy to answer any questions you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18475             Before we get to those questions though, I am going to ask Chip Sutherland to say a few words and just clarify a few points for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18476             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Chuck.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18477             I have been listening this week and I thought it would be helpful, since I am sort of the mechanic of the fund, to just address a couple of issues to clarify.  I have got five of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18478             The first one is the commercial fund.  Everyone has been throwing the phrase around "commercial fund" but what does that mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18479             There is sort of a presumption that it means big established pop rock artists like Avril Lavigne and Nickelback.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18480             But "commercial" for our purposes means "where the artist intersects with people paying for their music."  So we have people like Jane Bunnett, Alpha Yaya Diallo, Montreal Jubilation Gospel Choir, Daniel Taylor and Taima, to just name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18481             Our written submission includes in Appendix 1 a breakdown of all of our funding to date by genre.  You will see that pop rock artists make up only 50 per cent of our funding.  The other 50 per cent are niche genres in some of these lower levels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18482             Also, our sales levels for being approved for the fund.  If you are a jazz artist, you only have to sell 2,500 records to get onto our fund.  If you are an independent artist in pop rock, it is 10,000.  If you are a major label artist, it is 15,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18483             So we don't have one threshold.  We adjust the thresholds for the genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18484             The amount of funding.  There definitely was confusing, I think, about this and for good reason.  It is very complicated.  I see Lynn Buffoni sitting here today and if it wasn't for her, I would still be trying to figure out these numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18485             I have provided a chart of the CAB contributions to date.  We have turned that into a three‑year rolling capital funding model and that is how we rationalize our funding because we only have one source of funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18486             You can see on this chart if you turn to it ‑‑ it is a lovely hot pink graph ‑‑ it goes from 1999 to 2010 and you can see that there is a very precipitous drop‑off at the end and this is because of how the transactions are paid.  So we will ‑‑ obviously, in the next two or three years our funding drops right off.  I can talk about that more in question and answer if you would like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18487             Artist‑centring.  Chuck gave you some examples of artist‑centring.  I just want to clarify this doesn't mean artist payment.  It doesn't always mean the payment goes into their bank account.  Sometimes the labels who are driving marketing, they are the best people to administer that money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18488             But it does give us the flexibility.  For example, Jimmy Rankin has his own record label song, Dog Music.  We pay him directly.  It is irrelevant to us.  We are based on sales criteria for the artist.  So it doesn't matter how their industry is structured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18489             It also allows us to pay artists direct touring subsidies.  In many international countries, the artists don't have a record label and therefore by paying artists directly we are able to infuse that, as Jian was addressing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18490             Emerging artists.  I know this is a big issue.  There are lots of questions and, of course, we don't have any position regarding the CanCon issues there.  But I would like to point out that 52 per cent of the artists that we fund, we are funding on their first or second record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18491             The concept of Starmaker was to grab artists as they are starting to take off and provide incremental investment right at that point where they need it to shoot off into the next level and that is what we are trying to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18492             The control of the fund.  Just a couple of references.  Honestly, I think because the name is Radio Starmaker Fund, I think people think it is radio's fund.  But there are only four out of 10 radio Board members on our Board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18493             We have by‑laws that we spent quite a bit of time revising the first year of the fund, that were unanimously adopted by the Board, that have very detailed criteria about how decisions are made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18494             So just to be clear, we are very serious about governance and how the Board operates with a strict set of by‑laws and radio has four out of 10 seats on the Board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18495             So those are my comments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18496             MR. McCOY:  That really completes our oral presentation and we are here to answer any questions that you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18497             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18498             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18499             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18500             Good morning, everyone, and thank you for the presentation.  It is very helpful, indeed, filling in some of the blanks but I have got a few more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18501             Let us start with the governance question first, and kicking off from Mr. Sutherland's comments about the composition of the Board, how is the Board chosen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18502             MR. McCOY:  Well, there are ‑‑ each body ‑‑ for instance, the four broadcasters ‑‑ the CAB appoints the representatives they want to have on that Board and it is done via the four major broadcasters: Rogers, CHUM, Corus and Standard.  They make the decision as to who is going to represent them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18503             The same is the case for CIRPA.  Their board appoints members to be part of our Board, as does CRIA.  And the two independent members are selected by the Board itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18504             I am not sure ‑‑ Chip, have you anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18505             MR. SUTHERLAND:  No, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18506             MR. McCOY:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18507             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Should the CAB proposal, which, simply put, would redirect all funding through the Starmaker Fund, would the composition of the Board or its selection process change?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18508             MR. McCOY:  Thank you, Madam Commissioner.  I don't like to duck a question but I think that Radio Starmaker Fund was formed five years ago on the basis of some governing principles and guidelines from the Commission and some money from the broadcasters and we are prepared to respond in the same way should those change, either the governing principles or the amount of money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18509             I don't think that I am in a position or my Board members here are in a position to discuss what we might or might not be able to do, certainly not without discussing it with our own Board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18510             But I guess to say we have been given some principles and some money before and we made it work and we would do the same with whatever decision you make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18511             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  One of the principles is the breakdown with major labels, indie funds.  That was part of the, going in, principles and premises and I just wanted to clarify.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18512             On page 3 of the presentation this morning, the percentages add up to 95 per cent, first point; and second point, the annual report that I have in front of me here of 2004‑2005 has a significant difference in the percentages to each of the groups.  So perhaps you could just explain that to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18513             MR. McCOY:  Yes, and if you are getting into the mechanics and numbers, I am going to ask our Executive Director Chip Sullivan to follow up on that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18514             MR. SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18515             The other 5 per cent is music associations.  We do sponsor the East Coast Music Association and the WCMAs.  We give them travel grants for artists to get to their conferences.  We do the same thing with the Junos.  It is one of our ways to trying to provide some regional outreach.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18516             When the Junos started travelling, one of the problems they have is there are many artists that are independent being nominated for Junos and they live in Edmonton and they are a classical violinist and they don't have a label paying for them to go to the Junos in Halifax.  So we provide grants for Juno nominees.  So that is the other 5 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18517             As for the difference in the financial ‑‑ Rachel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18518             MS OLDFIELD:  The difference between the annual report and the written submission in March to the CRTC is the annual reports track the funding by artist.  If you are a major label artist, the money was 100 per cent major label.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18519             In our submission in March, the money was tracked by company, which is a more detailed breakdown where if that major label artist was to receive touring money, the touring money was paid directly to the artist company and the label initiatives would have been paid to the major label.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18520             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So today when you say CIRPA‑independent companies receive 35 per cent, and I am looking at the annual report, it says indie labels 69.9, it is not the same?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18521             MS OLDFIELD:  Yes, it is not broken down by ‑‑ it is just simply indie artists as opposed to indie companies and the breakdown of the companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18522             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18523             MR. SUTHERLAND:  And if I can just say, Madam Commissioner, why would we break it down that way, and the point is that there are all kinds of levels of the independent music industry and we are just trying to reflect that there are different aspects to that infrastructure and we are aware of it, that's all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18524             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, that is helpful.  I guess perhaps if there is follow‑up, you might want to give us a little bit more of that because I think that ‑‑ as I said, it is one of the principles going in and as we look at the future it is important to understand, not necessarily drill down to the point where we are right in there ‑‑ we shouldn't be ‑‑ but just to get a better sense of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18525             You heard Vice‑Chair Arpin ask FACTOR about the MEC.  Could you also give us your perspective on, for example, the difference between the Starmaker Fund and the Heritage MEC program and how you understand that program to be functioning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18526             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Well again, we don't.  They are just rolling it out.  We have only had preliminary discussions in the fall when Heritage was kind enough to inform us what they were planning so that we could start predicting it as we rolled out our programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18527             What we understand to date is that it is business plan funding for the bigger independent companies that provides them with significant funding on a business plan model as a per‑project‑based model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18528             Since the program is brand new, we haven't determined yet ‑‑ our board hasn't yet decided how will we manage funding MEC companies.  That is something the Board has yet to look at because we haven't had them apply yet as MEC companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18529             But the basic premise, as we understand it, is Heritage is putting additional money into the music industry.  They are putting money targeted specifically at independent infrastructure, the bigger independents, based on their performance I believe is how they are doing it.  So it is basically additional funding in the ‑‑ I believe you have heard the word "ecosystem" a few times this week, so there is more fish food in the fish tank I would say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18530             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It usually brings more fish, too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18531             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Well, hopefully some more varied colourful fish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18532             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The demand is always there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18533             But so I understand, then, a company accessing money through the MEC program could also access money through Starmaker for marketing and promotion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18534             MR. SUTHERLAND:  We haven't discussed that at the board level because we didn't know ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18535             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Potentially?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18536             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Potentially, absolutely.  We have made no decisions on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18537             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Then again concerning the chart that you have given us I did have a questions on the financials.  You have also laid that out in your written intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18538             In the written intervention you also make the point that you will have stable funding in the next three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18539             I was reading from that, that next three years is the CAB proposal three‑year transition period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18540             Did I read that correctly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18541             MR. SUTHERLAND:  You are very close.  Three years starts for us 2006.  So it is actually the first two years of the CAB.  So we have stable funding right now because of our capital funding model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18542             If you look at this little ski hill, what the board did in 2005 is we rationalized the funding and spread it out on a balance basis so that we wouldn't end up with programs that we couldn't fund over the next three years.  So '06‑'07.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18543             Our fiscal is September to September like the broadcast year, so '06‑'07, '07‑'08, '08‑'09 are the three stable years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18544             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:   The $3 million approximately is the demand number that we saw in the CAB proposal based on historic demand on the Starmaker Fund, and that would be secured and guaranteed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18545             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  What we have in our budget, the capital fund model is $3.2 million a year.  It is $800,000 per quarter for our grant program; it's $300,000 a year in the association funding that I referred to earlier.  We are running at roughly $450,000 in administration.  So about $4 million is the real ‑‑ that is what our capital fund model allows for right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18546             The only thing I would add to the CAB model is that our international touring program is very popular and it is broad.  It has only been in place for 18 months and in terms of an arc of funding I suspect the demand will go up for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18547             So there is likely ‑‑ if I was truly giving a picture of the true demand today, it is probably more in the $4.5 million range.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18548             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So am I looking at demand here on this, or contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18549             MR. SUTHERLAND:  No, this is the painful chart of taking the transactions from the MLO approvals that you have.  We went to the CAB.  The very first thing I did was say to them, "How much money are we going to have and how do we get it and how do I know?"  We agreed with the broadcaster ‑‑ they were very cooperative ‑‑ to say we will stagger our payments in equal instalments over seven years and guarantee you those instalments, and they have lived up to that promise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18550             So this is if you took all the multiple licence transactions, divided them up by the time of when they occurred and how the money is collected over a 7‑year period, as you would all know from being involved in it ‑‑ there was a big spike in these transactions, that's why you see the spike in the funding, and then it trails off now that the transactions have trailed off.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18551             So this is literally ‑‑ this is drawn right out of our capital fund model.  This is how we budget ourselves.  These are the numbers we expect to receive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18552             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Receive, all right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18553             MR. SUTHERLAND:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18554             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right.  That's helpful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18555             Which connects a little more to the annual report in terms of the contributions line and then the expenses line.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18556             MR. SUTHERLAND:  If I could just one issue on the annual report, we are very strict about GAAP accounting rules on fund accounting and it is a little bit different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18557             The CAB collects for us because it is an efficient thing to do, they are already in touch with all the transactions and tracking it.  When we receive the money we have to report it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18558             So I think somebody suggested in one of our years there was $5 million, but that is just a cashflow issue.  It is really irrelevant.  We don't model on cash or we would run out of money and would not be able to fund programs.  We model on this contributions chart and then we just manage our cashflow appropriately from there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18559             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The drop off, again to be clear, this is based on tangible benefits contribution only?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18560             MR. SUTHERLAND:  The lexicon, I call it MLO money because I just made that up, but it's the multiple licence ownership transaction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18561             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We mean the same thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18562             MR. SUTHERLAND:  If that's tangible benefits, then that's what it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18563             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18564             Technically CTD contributions can also come via other contributions, as in the 3 percent in the CAB plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18565             Is that a quantifiable number and is that include in this amount or is this just the tangible benefits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18566             MR. SUTHERLAND:  This is just tangible benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18567             We do receive from time to time, not very often, a few small CTD amounts.  There are some new license commitments we have received recently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18568             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18569             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Newcap has been very supportive of us.  So there will be a few of those, but they are so new that they haven't hit this model yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18570             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The reason I'm asking I guess is obvious:  Would that waylay, would that change the drop?  If this is related just to tangible benefits, if there were other contributions through other doors would that change the drop off?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18571             In other words, do you have another plan, another backup plan to take care of this drop off?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18572             MR. SUTHERLAND:  We have no backup plan.  The Starmaker funds, as Chuck mentioned, the mandate was:  There are going to be these multiple license transactions.  We think this would be a good use of this money to put it into a star system so please build it.  We have known from the beginning that it had this arc and we have built it that way, stabilized in the last three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18573             One of the things about our capital fund model ‑‑ and it is one of the advantages of not being in a government model where you have to answer every March 31st for the money I suppose ‑‑ is we can model it like a business over three years and provide ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18574             To answer your question, if somebody showed up tomorrow and said, "Here is $2 million", we don't just spend it that month, we build it into our three‑year ‑‑ it's a three‑year rolling capital fund model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18575             Because one of the problems with building your programs is, you can either build 15 programs and then not be able to fund any of them because you have too much demand for too many programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18576             One of the real challenges when we first started with this was to say, "Well, what can we afford to do, because we have a finite amount of money and it is for a specific purpose."

LISTNUM 1 \l 18577             For instance, we didn't do international touring at first because we didn't feel we had enough money for it, and then once the transactions increased we said, "Well, now we do have enough budget" so we added international touring.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18578             I hope, to answer you question, there is no plan.  As money comes in we will adjust the capital funding model, and it comes in generally in these spaced out increments so we just adjust as we go along.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18579             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  One of the comments that I read in one submission ‑‑ and you have mentioned it yourself ‑‑ is that Starmaker Fund is funding ‑‑ I think you used ‑‑ no that's the airplay, 88 percent, or a similar amount, of response to the demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18580             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18581             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Am I more or less correct on that, that you are responding to the demand at that level?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18582             MR. McCOY:  Yes.  Ninety‑one percent of all the qualifying applications are approved, and they are approved to, I believe, just over 80 percent of the total funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18583             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  We measured two things.  One is the number.  You get 30 applications, of those 30 generally 27 of them will be approved.  Of the 27 that are approved, they generally get about 83 percent of them ‑‑ which I think is the number you are talking about ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18584             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18585             MR. SUTHERLAND:  ‑‑ of the money they ask for.  Now, that is because we are able to set very specific criteria around what it is you are qualified ‑‑ our website is very detailed in terms of what you can get from us so it helps to steer that funding and make it more certain for everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18586             MR. GHOMESHI:  Which is, I might add, one of the things I like, which is that it is not whimsical or subjection on behalf of the board in terms of where the money is going, it is if you meet the criteria and you have sold some records, you will probably get the funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18587             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  speaking of that, one of the main components of the programs is the direct board approval segment.  That would appear to cover a large part of the grants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18588             Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18589             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Direct board approval is FACTOR's process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18590             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18591             MR. SUTHERLAND:  We don't have a direct board approval because everything is sales‑based criteria.  An artist could show up tomorrow that has no track record, that is not on a label of any kind that anyone has ever heard of but, as Jian can talk to, can be the next big thing and if they hit that 10,000 unit level, they stick an application in, they get money.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18592             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The question I asked earlier I wondered if you would comment on, Mr. McCoy, the possibility of a common administration of the funds in the context as described by FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18593             Do you have any comment on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18594             MR. McCOY:  Well, I'm going to duck the question again a bit, because I really don't think that I can comment on what changes we might make to Radio Starmaker fund, what might work better for all the funds that are out there, including Radio Starmaker and FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18595             I think I would only say that ‑‑ as I say, first of all, we haven't discussed that with the board an in terms of governance we wouldn't make a public statement on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18596             But I guess I would say and reiterate that what we have been doing for four years has been working and we are comfortable in continuing with the way it has been going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18597             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But the concept of a common administration is a little different, like let's say the way that Musicaction, Fond Radiostar are currently administered together.  This is what I believe has been put on the table as potential going forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18598             It's a little different than all the funds going through Radiostar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18599             Is that something that could be contemplated or is it again something that you would want to discuss?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18600             MR. McCOY:  You know, Madam Commissioner, going back to what we were saying in our oral presentation, in reality we are a very independent fund.  We have a board that is comprised of people from all segments of the industry, both music and radio.  As Chip said, five years ago this Commission provided us with some governing principles and the broadcasters supplied some money and we built a fund.  That included administration.  We are really willing and able to take direction again and whatever funding is provided, including administration or however you see fit to construct it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18601             MR. SUTHERLAND:  If I could just add, just on the administration because it sounds like just a vague word, we have two and a half employees and we have a website.  That is the extent of our administration.  It is not exactly a cumbersome ‑‑ I think Jian described it as lean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18602             But the one advantage of having put such an investment in our website is that we are a 100 percent paperless web‑based application.  It is a fairly slim operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18603             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.  Very helpful.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18604             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18605             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Obviously in this graph you are making the assumption that there will be no more transactions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18606             Why are you making that assumption?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18607             MR. McCOY:  I will answer that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18608             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Because you are living in the real world or you are living on the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18609             MR. McCOY:  Well, Commissioner Arpin, I will answer that and then I will ask Chip to follow up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18610             Preparing the capital funding model we never want to or we are not able to anticipate funding that might or might not be coming.  So we are really preparing our funding model based on the certainties that we have.  Again, that may change and there may be funding from other places and that would change the capital funding model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18611             Chip, if there is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18612             MR. SUTHERLAND:  I think the other thing, what you don't see here, I was being very specific about the existing contributions, but we have a three‑year rolling model.  So if next month in your wisdom ‑‑ or somebody else's wisdom I suppose if they want to buy somebody ‑‑ we find out there is another million dollars, we know it is being paid the seven years, we can easily adapt for new changes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18613             But really we do not have another source of money and so we really can't say to the public, "Oh yes, we probably will have money", so we have to budget accordingly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18614             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  When in 1988 the CRTC allowed the creation of the Starmaker fund it was based on an assumption ‑‑ and the CAB created the Starmaker on the assumption that it will have a life of about seven to nine years.  I can see from your graph that what you are showing here is that you will have had a real life of about 10 years.  Well, you are showing 12, but in year 1 and year 12 you don't have any significant impact, particularly in the year 12.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18615             Wasn't the goal attained?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18616             MR. SUTHERLAND:  I think the goal was attained.  That's an excellent point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18617             I think I said this earlier, this fund was brought about because of a specific circumstance in the marketplace that radio thought this would be effective.  They gave us a few principles and some money and we turned it into the fund and it worked for what it was supposed to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18618             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  So why expand the lifespan of the fund?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18619             MR. SUTHERLAND:  We are not.  We are not expanding the lifespan of the fund.  This is the fund is what it is for today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18620             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  No, no.  I think the question should have been asked to the CAB and they could address it on June 12th.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18621             There are CAB representatives in the room.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18622             MR. SUTHERLAND:  I think what Chuck is saying is that we are all set up, we have the website, we have the administration.  The concept of artists entering seems to be working well and if there is more work to be done we are happy to take it on, but at present we are happy that we have done exactly what I feel we were asked to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18623             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  And with success.  I think your annual report shows that the money has allowed Canadian artists to further develop and to become known at the international level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18624             MR. GHOMESHI:  I would say that we continue to be effective and that we are, as you say, living in the real world in terms of the mandate that has been dealt to us, but that we continue to be effective and make a difference in the lives and careers of artists and were that to continue I would consider that a good thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18625             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  With the previous intervenor we discussed the possibility of double dipping problems between FACTOR and Starmaker.  I know that Ms Ostertag said that you had put in place some mechanisms which, from her own end, is a paper burden.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18626             Do you have any comments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18627             MR. McCOY:  Yes, Commissioner Arpin.  Obviously this is something that we are as concerned about as the people from FACTOR are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18628             We have had many conversations with FACTOR and Rachel has been to the FACTOR office and we have looked and we examine all of the funding, and I am going to just ask Chip to give you maybe a bit of a rundown in terms of what the results were, because we did a fairly exhaustive examination of that possibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18629             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Well, there are two things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18630             When we built the fund we built it around FACTOR of course, because FACTOR had been around for 20 years when we started and we were well aware of the good work that FACTOR was doing so we weren't going to stumble all over what they were doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18631             They are obviously putting a lot of money into creating product, records and videos.  We don't do that.  So right away a huge chunk of their funding and none of ours is directed in an area where we don't go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18632             They don't fund any major label artists.  Well, they do in some small segments of their program but they don't have that and we do.  Twenty percent of our money goes there, so 20 percent of our money generally is fine.  So it was designed to get around that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18633             Now, where we had a problem or a perceived problem was we had independent, the bigger independent companies who are making lots of investments and artists and they have successful artists so they are applying to both because they don't know whether they are going to get money from one or the other, so we have made it clear that they have to disclose if they are applying for FACTOR, then we exchange all of this information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18634             In the first round of funding we might have had three because nobody knew the rules.  We caught all of them.  I think the five years ‑‑ Rachel, you can correct me ‑‑ I think we have had seven instances of double dipping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18635             I think we have caught all of them.  I  think maybe four of them were from one company because they didn't understand a rule on how the invoices could be submitted, and therefore out of the whole fund I think maybe it was $30,000 total that we had overlap.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18636             Do you want to just take that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18637             MS OLDFIELD:  Yes, I think probably today there have been 250 fully reconciled files, and I think the instances are less than ten.  And as Chip has alluded to, it was one individual larger indie company who was responsible for ‑‑ I think it was six of those double‑dipping instances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18638             We do have a mechanism in place where I am in contact with FACTOR and they are in contact with me.  I send every single Radio Starmaker Fund fully reconciled independent label account statement to FACTOR, and they have it on file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18639             That is every single one, whether they indicated they applied to FACTOR or not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18640             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  On another area, one of the record companies, Fading Ways, just to name them, is saying that no CTD funds should be given via FACTOR or Starmaker, or any other similar programs, for project artists who no longer control their intellectual property or that the company is not 100 percent Canadian owned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18641             Do you have any views on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18642             MR. McCOY:  Well, again, we are not a centered fund.  Our funding is based on the artist.  We are here to develop Canadian talent and the artist is at the centre of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18643             We don't believe ‑‑ and this is how we operate the Radio Starmaker Fund ‑‑ that the funding should be dependent on the business arrangement that the artist has made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18644             We have particular guidelines in terms of we predominantly fund independent artists but it is not our role to play in determining what business deal an artist makes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18645             If they are Canadian, they are Canadian.  And if they meet the other criteria, then we will review them for funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18646             I'm not sure, Andy or Jian, perhaps you have a comment to make on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18647             MR. McLEAN:  Yes.  I just wanted to say that in about three weeks about 450 new bands will be coming to Toronto to play at the festival that I and my partners organize.  This is our 12th year of running it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18648             The theme this year is "DIY", Do It Yourself.  Now, a lot of artists are really making their own business decisions to be an independently run artist business in the same way as you would start any other little business; in fact, a very viable way for artists to try and make a living.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18649             The traditional model is either starving artist or superstar.  I think it is much better to see it in terms of trying to create a middle ground where the new Canadian artists are self‑supporting; that they are taking control of their own business and they can access funds and manage it in a way that any other small start‑up business would be perceived.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18650             So that is the kind of information that we are giving to artists who are developing and just encouraging them to run it.  Even though it is the music business, it just like any other independent business.  And it should really be run under the same kind of guidelines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18651             If you have a good product, which is great songs you can play, then you will reach your market at some point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18652             And you should certainly keep control of owning this intellectual property.  As Jian says, you can record in a basement.  There is no real reason not to hang on to the masters of your recording.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18653             Traditionally in this business the sad thing is that many artists will never own the songs that they have created.  They are owned by labels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18654             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.  Those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18655             MR. SUTHERLAND:  If I can just add for a second, because the quote you gave was effective ‑‑ giving up control of their masters and Andy was talking about ownership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18656             The effective control sounds like an easy test, but it is not really an easy test.  If the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 18657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Tell us about it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18658             MR. SUTHERLAND:  Well, the idea that the artist makes the record and then decides who is going to help me in my whole economy, not just the record business.  Of course it is important, but it is only one part of the music business.  Right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18659             The music business is touring and merchandising and song writing.  For an artist, there is a whole economy out there and we are focused on improving all of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18660             The effective control isssue is well, you make your record and whether you choose on a business deal, because of the investment levels, to give up ownership or you don't, we have faith that the artist makes good decisions about their own business decisions and why would we tell them how to structure their business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18661             We don't judge them by their business structure.  We judge them by being a Canadian artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18662             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18663             Madam Secretary, the next item, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18664             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18665             We would now invite the next participant, ANR Lounge, Ms Anna Maria Russo, if she could come forward for her presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause


LISTNUM 1 \l 18666             MS RUSSO:  Sorry, it's just booting up right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18667             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you using dial‑up?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18668             MS RUSSO:  Sorry, Dell computers.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 18669             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is your entire presentation video?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18670             MS RUSSO:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is your entire presentation video?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18672             MS RUSSO:  It's going to exemplify everything that I mention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18673             I am just going to introduce myself while I fold this over so that you can see it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18674             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18675             MS RUSSO:  Good morning.  Sorry about the wait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18676             My name is Anna Maria Russo.  I am the manager of the ANR Lounge website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18677             Here with me today, and running the AV, is Sam Baardman, Executive Director of the Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association, also known as MARIA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18678             MARIA is one of the 15 music industry associations in the ANR Lounge.  We would like to thank the CRTC for allowing us the opportunity to speak about the ANR Lounge as a vital internet tool for the Canadian music industry, and more specifically for emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18679             I will be conducting a visual presentation to better describe our services.  By employing real‑life scenarios artists commonly encounter, I will show you how the ANR Lounge helps get their music out there and be heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18680             Before I start, I wish to clarify that we are here as a non‑partisan, independent group committed to developing talent in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18681             We also want to show how ANR Lounge is a perfect example of how Canadian Talent Development funds are efficiently used to help create the stars of tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18682             The discovery and development of emerging artists is vital as they are among Canada's most valued cultural resources.  The ANR Lounge recognizes the need to nurture this resource because without new music there would be nothing to fuel the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18683             Through the website, located at, up‑and‑coming artists like Luke Doucet, The Perms, Damhnait Doyle, BrassMunk and Doc Walker are able to promote their music to radio stations across Canada for free.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18684             But that is not all we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18685             We provide targeted information to help artists acquire the knowledge and help they need to develop their craft.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18686             As the saying goes, no person is an island and this is true for any artist trying to make it in the music business, particularly with the culture of connectedness the internet affords.  Artists need the infrastructure provided by managers, record labels, promoters, etc., to help get their career to the next level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18687             Therefore, in addition to our radio promotion service, we provide what is arguably the most comprehensive database of information containing Canadian sources that will help artists build the necessary network in order to get their music heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18688             I will now ask you to pay attention to the screens in front of you as I will demonstrate our claims.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18689             Let us take, for example, a new rock group that has just finished a release and are looking for ways to promote it.  Naturally, the first question that is asked by artists is how can they get their music played on the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18690             Through their free ANR Lounge account the rock group has access to the Music and New Releases section.  In this section artist members can create a profile that includes their biography, sound clips, and album artwork among other information, which resembles an electronic press kit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18691             When completed and reviewed by one of our 13 regional administrators across the country, their profile is posted in the Music and New Releases section.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18692             Each week we send out a notice to over 600 radio stations, which includes commercial, campus and community, setting out what new releases have just been uploaded.  This gives artists an incredible advantage because they are saving thousands of dollars because there is no need to pay out the money it would take to mail out packages, nor does it cost them any money to upload the release to our website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18693             Therefore, without having to spend a dime, they increase their chances of being heard by key radio station personnel and being considered for airplay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18694             Since the launch of this service, artists listed on the ANR Lounge have appeared over 300 times on campus radio charts and added 515 times to commercial radio.  Currently a radio station can access 1,300 releases containing over 10,000 songs found in the Music and New Releases section.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18695             Other ways to augment the promotion of a release is by sending a press release out to major media, hiring a radio promoter or planning a tour of live performances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18696             The Listings section of the website can help the group initiate any of these activities by providing them with up‑to‑date contacts in the music industry.  In our searchable database of 16,000 contacts we provide contact information for 1,275 media outlets, including print, television and radio; 115 publicists; and over 1,400 venues across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18697             These listings can be narrowed down by genre, province, city and sub‑categories.  For example, you can limit your venue search to a range of different sizes from coffee houses to stadiums.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18698             If I may digress for a moment, going back to the idea mentioned earlier about building a support network, the listings also provide contact information for 418 management companies, 325 record labels and 219 promoters.  Artists can peruse their search results to target who they want to contact to potentially build a working relationship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18699             As you can see, the listings provide one‑stop targeted searching in over 40 different music‑related categories in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18700             As with the Music and New Release section, the listings save time spent on searching for the right contacts and again help bring their music closer to the masses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18701             Networking is a very important part of being in the music industry and on many occasions it can be equally as beneficial to know and to have the right contacts as it is to have a good release.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18702             Our listings provide key music industry contacts.  However, our events calendar will indicate where the key contacts will most likely convene.  The events calendar lists conferences, award shows, educational seminars and trade shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18703             Revisiting our rock group looking to promote their release, if they decide to plan a tour and book some dates, they can list their tour dates here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18704             Let us take a few steps back, before our imaginary rock group went into the studio with a fist‑full of songs to record.  The principal question in the mind of the artist is:  How are we going to pay for this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18705             Fortunately, there are over 200 funding programs in Canada that provide grants to finance artists' endeavours, such as a recording project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18706             The ANR Lounge's Funding MatchMaker helps organize the overwhelming number of programs by employing an interactive filter process to narrow down the list to a select few that are relevant to the needs of the artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18707             Many members have benefited from this service, including Troy Neilson of New Brunswick, who successfully received $5,000 in grants from the New Brunswick sound initiative, and Arnold van Labalgen of Saskatchewan who received funds through a touring grant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18708             Through these four services I outlined today, the ANR Lounge provides a broad range of functionalities suited to increase business opportunities for artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18709             The tangible benefits to the industry are profound, as demonstrated by the latest web traffic statistics.  To date, the website receives an average of 387,000 hits per month, which amounts to 30,000 unique users during the same period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18710             While the majority of our visitors come from Canada, 43 percent of our users come from outside the country, many from the United States, Europe and Australia.  This proves that by using this service, our artists have the potential to reach beyond the borders of our country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18711             The ANR Lounge did not achieve success on its own.  The creation of the website forged an unprecedented collaboration among 15 music industry associations, including all provincial and regional associations and four national ones.  They are now linked in a unique way, working closer together ‑‑ perhaps in a way that has never been done before in Canada's music history.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18712             The initiative allowed the opportunity for the associations to exchange policies and ideas.  I would even go ahead and say that the ANR Lounge is partly responsible for the formation of the Coalition of Nine Provincial/Territorial Music Industry Associations that will be speaking to you later today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18713             This proves that working together is a more powerful way to a common goal: to build the Canadian music industry and sustain its economic and cultural health.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18714             The music industry would lose a valuable resource if the ANR Lounge were discontinued due to lack of funding.  Currently the ANR Lounge is financially supported by the Foundation Assisting Canadian Talent on Recordings ‑‑ also known as FACTOR ‑‑ exclusively through the Radio Marketing Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18715             We express our gratitude to the broadcasters and FACTOR for the opportunity to create the ANR Lounge.  The initiative has entered the last year of a five‑year funding commitment with no guarantee of renewal.  Many individuals and companies have benefited from the resources provided by this important database and many more stand to benefit in the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18716             The ANR Lounge provides valuable services at no cost to its users because of the generosity of the Canadian broadcasters and their commitment to developing talent in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18717             Once again, the ANR Lounge is a perfect example of how Canadian Talent Development funds are officially used to help create the stars of tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18718             The ANR Lounge would be able to further contribute to developing Canadian talent if we secure long‑term sustained funding for this project.  Sustained funding could be attained by renewing support through FACTOR or securing monies directly from the Canadian Talent Development Fund.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18719             We thank you for your time and we welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18720             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18721             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18722             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18723             Thank you for the demo.  I did go to the site but this allowed me to go a little further in because I could only get to the first front pages where we talked about the collaboration amongst the music associations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18724             So perhaps later we will talk to Maria about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18725             MS RUSSO:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18726             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just one quick question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18727             When you mention the 30,000 unique users and the hits, who are the users?  Is it the artists?  Is it the companies?  Is it the broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18728             MS RUSSO:  It's a combination of all three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18729             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you have some follow‑up, some way to evaluate that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18730             MS RUSSO:  Well, I can give you an example of what happened two days ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18731             We actually are constantly improving the website to fulfil the needs of our users.  Of course, one of our users are radio station personnel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18732             So what we have done is we streamlined the way the notification works for radio.  So we sent out a notice about that and within the hour, within one hour, 40 radio stations had already gone and revamped their accounts.  So that is one example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18733             Also with artists, artists are constantly going up on the website.  I think they would ‑‑ the spike would be for broadcasters because every Wednesday they get the notification for new releases.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18734             So the spike would be mostly broadcasters on Wednesday, music industry on Tuesday as we post our news every Tuesday called the WhistleBlower, and then I guess a general spraying of artists coming in at anytime of the day every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18735             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You say you send a notice to over 600 radio stations, commercial, campus and community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18736             MS ROUSSEAU:  Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18737             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  What about the CBC?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18738             MS ROUSSEAU:  Yes, CBC is included.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18739             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18740             MS ROUSSEAU:  I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18741             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18742             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18743             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18744             We will break now and resume in 15 minutes.  Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes, at 10:55.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1040 / Suspension à 1040

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1101 / Reprise à 1101

LISTNUM 1 \l 18745             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Monsieur le président, I will introduce the next participant, the Canadian Satellite Radio and Mr. Steven Tapp will introduce his colleague, after which you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18746             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18747             MR. TAPP:  Thank you very much.  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18748             I'm Steven Tapp and I'm the President and Chief Operating Officer of Canadian Satellite Radio, licensee of Satellite Subscription Radio Service XM Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18749             First and foremost, I want to tell you what an honour it is to be here today and to thank the Commission for giving us the opportunity through this licence to provide our service to the Canadian public.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18750             We think this is a great decision for Canadian Consumers and a wonderful decision for Canadian artists and we're very proud to be here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18751             With me here today on my left is Stewart Lyons, the longest standing member of the XM CSR team.  I think is going on like five years now, right Stewart?  Stewart Lyons is our Executive Vice President.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18752             Beside Stewart is André DiCesare who is our Directeur, responsable de la programmation francophone.  And beside André is Daren Kirkwood who is our in‑house Legal Counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18753             On my right we have Ross Davies who is our Vice President of programming, no stranger to the Commission and the radio industry here in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18754             Beside Ross is Cam Carpenter, the hardest working man in showbiz, the guy who is responsible for all of our Canadian talent development, Cam Carpenter.  And that is our small team here today, as I've said, we're very happy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18755             As the Commission is aware, we were licensed about 12 months ago to operate one of Canada's two competitive satellite radio services and that decision back on June 16, 2005 flowed from an extremely thorough competitive licensing hearing which obviously took place in this hearing room back in November of 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18756             At that hearing the Commission had an opportunity to review with the applicants and with many of the same parties who are participating in this review this week, a broad range of policy issues that relate specifically to the role of subscription satellite radio services in the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18757             Our XM Canada service, the first of its kind launched in Canada ‑‑ we were the number one to the launch pad ‑‑ went on the air on November 22nd 2005, signing up our first subscriber and allowing XM Canada to provide one of the hottest‑selling holiday gifts for last year's holiday gift giving season, the most important selling season for satellite radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18758             We have now been broadcasting in Canada for nearly six months, it's about 170 days so far, we have already implemented one set of significant amendments to our conditions of licence.  And the last half year has been both challenging and very exciting for us at XM Canada.  It is a very competitive business and we're happy Canadians have choice in their satellite radio services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18759             As we anticipated, XM Canada launched its service into a Canadian market that had a considerable pent‑up consumer demand already for a non‑grey market, legitimate, Canadian‑owned, Canadian‑delivered satellite subscription radio service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18760             Also as we expected, we have been face with very strong competition in the market place from our competitor, SIRIUS Canada ‑‑ I think that's good for Canadian Consumers ‑‑ but we are proud to report that XM Canada has made great progress to date, both in programming and marketing our service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18761             We've put in place an ambitious Canadian talent development program, one that focuses on initiatives to support both anglophone and francophone new and emerging Canadian artists.  We are convinced that our XM Canada service is and will be a great success and will make very significant contributions to strengthening the Canadian Broadcasting system and we're proud to be part of that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18762             Through our appearance this morning we would like to provide the Commission with a status report on the satellite radio industry in Canada and to outline what we have done in particular to showcase on a North American delivery platform, the new and emerging Canadian music and comedic talent.  We would also like to review some of our major Canadian talent development initiatives to date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18763             Although for competitive reasons as a public company I am not able to provide the Commission today with precise subscriber numbers to date, we are obviously obliged to report on a quarterly basis as a publicly traded company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18764             I can confirm that we are ahead of our projected sub‑numbers that were contained in the business plan that we filed with our licence application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18765             We are currently programming ten Canadian‑produced channels out of Montreal and Toronto and we provide XM Canada subscribers with a choice of up to 100 diverse radio programming channels, spanning a wide range of choice in news, entertainment, sports and, of course, music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18766             We have implemented all of our conditions of licence, including those contained in broadcasting decision CRTC 2006‑37 of the 10th of February 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18767             CSR's English and French music channels play virtually 100 per cent Canadian content music, a very high proportion of that music is new Canadian artists.  We are extremely proud of the fact that XM Canada has, as we promised at the 2004 licence hearing, provided access for new and emerging Canadian performing artists, both anglophone and francophone.  And we are broadcasting their unique talents over six million listeners throughout the XM platform across North America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18768             Young Canadian bands such as Geneviève Bilodeau, Jets Overhead, The Most Serene Republic, they're all examples of new and emerging Canadian artists who receive airplay not only on XM Canada‑produced channels such as The Verge and Air Music, but also on U.S. based XM music channels such as XMU, The loft, XM Café, just to name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18769             Mr. Chairman, I'd like the Commission to hear from those directly responsible for making this magic come to life, our program executives and talent development ambassadors.  I would like to ask Ross Davies, André and Cam to briefly outline for you some of the notable programming success that XM Canada has experienced to date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18770             MR. DAVIES:  Thank you Steve.  Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, Steve has already identified a few of the new young Canadian bands that are receiving airplay and North American exposure on both U.S. and Canadian XM music programming channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18771             I could add to that list the names of emerging Canadian musical artists such as Jason Collett, Luke Doucet, Octoberman, Quinzy, Elliott Brood, Small Sins, Hey Rosetta!, Moufette and on and on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18772             As well, more established Canadian musical artists such as Ron Sexsmith, Bruce Cockburn, Blue Rodeo, The Tragically Hip are all receiving regular airplay and exposure in the United States and Canada on XM's other commercial‑free music channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18773             A good part of our success in ensuring that Canadian musical artists get airplay on the various U.S. program XM channels is a result of our Canadian Music Ambassador program which is headed by Cameron Carpenter and Cam will speak with you about that in a moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18774             But our XM Canada satellite radio service is not all about music.  We also program from our XM Canada studios in Toronto and in conjunction with Mark Breson of Yuk‑Yuks an English language comedy channel called "Laugh Attack".  That channel, not surprisingly has proven to be very popular with XM radio listeners in the U.S.A. as well as in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18775             In addition, we provide our subscribers, including the large number of XM Canada subscribers who are snowbirds with both English and French language 24/7 Canadian news and cultural information channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18776             I would ask now my colleague André to outline what XM Canada has done since launch in respect of our French language program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18777             MR. DiCESARE:  Thank you, Ross.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18778             Monsieur le président, mesdames, messieurs; dès le début du projet de l'implantation de la radio satellite XM au Canada j'avais personnellement un objectif bien précis en n'impliquant dans cette aventure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18779             C'était d'obtenir le meilleur positionnement possible pour les artistes francophones du Canada dans cette nouvelle technologie.  Je souhaitais entendre la musique francophone d'ici partout en Amérique.  Je croyais fermement qu'on ne pouvait pas se permettre de manque notre rendez‑vous avec cette technologie de communication de l'an 2000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18780             À titre de responsable du développement des stations francophones canadiennes, je souhaitais que nos deux chaînes musicales, Air Musique et Sur la Route aient un contenu francophone à 100 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18781             De plus, je tenais à ce que nous fassions entendre partout en Amérique la musique de nos artistes établis, mais également celle du plus grand nombre d'artistes émergents que l'on entend pas sur les ondes des radios traditionnelles.  Après six mois d'opérations, je suis fier d'annoncer : mission accomplie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18782             Déjà, nous avons fait plus de 50 portraits radio d'artistes de la relève et d'artistes plus connus.  Nous avons le plaisir également de présenter des performances exclusives et des entrevues que nous enregistrons et diffusons sur nos ondes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18783             À ce jour, nous avons reçu dans nos studios Catherine Durand, Christian Legault, Jamil, Geneviève Bilodeau, Gilles Valiquette, Jim Corcoran, Véronique Dicaire, Dan Bigras, Edgar Bori, Patrick Normand, Karin Clerc, Zone Urbaine, Senaya, Chris Stills et Camaro et d'autres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18784             Par ailleurs,  nous avons des discussions constantes avec les associations professionnelles de l'industrie musicale pour développer des collaborations qui profiteront aux artistes d'ici.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18785             Par exemple; nous étions en avril aux rencontres de l'ADISQ.  Nous sommes partenaires des MINI, Montreal Independent Music Initiatives, que nous avons enregistré hier leur premier concert qui seront en ondes dans quelques semaines chez nous et nous seront également présents au Festival de Jazz à Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18786             Enfin, nous avons eu le grand plaisir de distribuer nos premières bourses de 50 000,00 $ chacune à deux artistes pour les soutenir dans leur conquête du marché européen.  L'annonce publique de notre soutien financier dans les carrières de Steffy Shock et du Groupe Les Trois Accords nous a permis d'avoir un impact considérable auprès du milieu artistique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18787             Suite à cette annonce, nombreux sont ceux et celles qui ont voulu en savoir plus sur la radio satellite XM, son implication dans l'industrie musicale canadienne et ses engagements futurs pour contribuer financièrement à son essor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18788             Nos chaînes de radio ont à peine six mois d'existence et déjà nous avons acquis une solide et bonne réputation dans le milieu de l'industrie musicale canadienne et nous en sommes fiers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18789             Je vais passer la parole à Cam.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18790             MR. CARPENTER:  Thank you, André.  Thank you.  It's nice to be here today.  Since the day XM launched last November we have made a point of reaching out to the Canadian music industry to lend our support to a number of music events across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18791             XM Canada has worked with and provided financial support to the East Coast Music Awards, New Music West, Canadian Music Week and Juno Fest. and Halifax on Parade, as part of this year's Junos.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18792             At this year's Junos, in conjunction with Halifax on Parade we produced a free concert for 16,000 people featuring local Maritime acts such as Jimmy Rankin, Bat Mays, Julia Plasket, Garrett Masson and The Trues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18793             We are continually looking for new emerging Canadian talent and we are pleased to tell you that so far we have programmed dozens of previously unclaimed Canadian bands.  These artists were not being played on conventional radio, but have found a home on XM.  Brand new artists such as the Museum Pieces from Halifax and 16 million metres from Vancouver have contacted us directly stating that they have been receiving CD artists from across North America due to their play on The Verge, our English music Canadian station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18794             Many bands have also commented and how many comments and friends' requests they have been receiving on my space because of their exposure on The Verge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18795             An example of what we can do would be a band called Murder City Sparrows who are from Edmonton.  I met them recently at Canadian Music Week in the lobby of the hotel, they played me their video and gave me their independent CD.  I gave it to our program director at The Verge, and he immediately liked it and added it to the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18796             We sponsored new music class this year in Vancouver and the Murder City Sparrows were voted next big thing at that conference.  We interviewed the band while we were there and then, we have since done a special on our station from New Music West highlighting the independent bands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18797             They will now be coming to Toronto for North by North East in the next couple weeks and we'll have them in our Toronto studios to record live there.  Hopefully, the next step will be to prove to the American stations the success that the bands had on our station and get them added on their play list as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18798             We have been recording bands for the last ten weeks and have done 40 already at our studios in Toronto and Montreal as well as we have arranged recordings in our Washington offices for such bands as Stars and New Pornographers and Blue Rodeo as they tour across America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18799             It's these rare exclusive performances that we will turn through our U.S. stations.  Also for airplay we had a band in this week's Small Sins who recorded in our studio that XMU will also be programming on their schedule in the States.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18800             Ron Sexsmith and Jason Collett recently gave two remarkable enthusiastic performances are regularly heard on The Loft, one of our popular U.S. channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18801             This is just a few examples of how we are spreading the word about Canadian music across North America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18802             MR. TAPP:  Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, that completes our brief progress report of XM Canada on the status of our business and we would be pleased to respond to any questions that you have.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18803             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We appreciate this update.  I just have a few questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18804             Mr. Carpenter, I don't know whether you were here for the AVR presentation around 3:00 A.M. last night, I think it was?

Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 18805             MR. CARPENTER:  No, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18806             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You weren't.  Well, I guess you mentioned that you are still offering performances and promoting groups.  Do you promote any aboriginal groups in that context?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18807             MR. TAPP:  We haven't as of yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18808             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You haven't.  Have you got any plans to carry aboriginal music as an example of spreading the word about Canadian music across North America?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18809             MR. DAVIES:  Mr. Chair, if I may, our plans for that studio are to cover all genres of music.  We are now as Stewart said, I think 170 days into this.  We have been primarily bringing bands in that are comparable to our channel specific right now, The Verge, that Cam mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18810             However, I think it was just yesterday, we had Haydn Neil in there who... from Jacksoul who has recorded I think five songs.  He probably ‑‑ well, he won't get played on The Verge channel per se, but we are going to take that record and get it ‑‑ that recording and send it down to the studio down in Washington.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18811             And so that is aboriginal will absolutely be part of that and we are just in the early days just still trying to reach out to the artist community with that in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18812             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I don't know again yesterday whether you heard the National Campus and Community Radio Association presentation alluding to commitments that the satellite applicants had made at the '04 hearings and they didn't name names, but they implied that one of the groups hadn't returned the phone calls and so on.  Have you had dealings with them and have you got anything to report on your relations with Campus and Community Radio Station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18813             MR. DAVIES:  Mr. Chair, I hope they weren't referring to me because I always make a point of returning my phone calls and e‑mails.  I can tell you, I did not hear the submission by the Campus people last night, but I was made aware of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18814             I can tell you that in that particular instance, we have had communication with them and I would like to believe that we are still in communication and they submitted a proposal to XM radio about maybe, I guess maybe a month ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18815             Now, it did take me a few days to get back to them, but it basically gave us a proposal for two full‑on channels, one music channel and one spoken word channel and we simply can't afford that band with right now and I informed them of that in the reply and, however, said, you know, we still need to talk about this and see what ways we can, you know, work together on this, but their proposal as they sent to us, wasn't ‑‑ couldn't work at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18816             I can also tell you that we have had communication with CKUA and Mr. Regan, he and I have exchanged e‑mails over the last few months and although we had spent the last couple of months, we haven't been in touch with each other, but I think the ball is in Mr. Regan's court about he was going to have his people submit a three‑hour demo of a proposed CKUA show that we are going to broadcast on the XM platform.  So that conversation is still taking place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18817             THE CHAIRPERSON:  He also wants you to heavily contribute to a CTD fund, I don't know whether you have any reaction to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18818             MR. DAVIES:  I'm going to let Stewart Lyons answer that, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18819             MR. LYONS:  Yes.  In our CTD plan as submitted, we actually have amounts allocated to NCRA.  We haven't had a chance to distribute those amounts yet because they're based on our fiscal year revenues which have not been built up because we have only been in business as Ross pointed out for 170 days, but as we get up there, definitely they have been part of the plan approved by the Commission.  So, they are on our list and we plan to commit to them for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18820             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Those are our questions.  Thank you very much.  Madam Secretary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18821             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci, monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18822             I would now invite the next participant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18823             J'inviterais maintenant le prochain participant à l'ordre du jour, monsieur Jean‑Paul Perreault d'Impératif français s'il voudrait se présenter pour sa présentation, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18824             Après que vous nous aurez présenté vos collègues, vous aurez dix minutes pour votre présentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18825             M. PERREAULT:  Alors, j'aimerais d'abord vous présenter les personnes qui m'accompagnent.  Madame Armelle Vallée, chargée de projet Impératif Français, madame Claude‑Annick Samson également chargée de projet au sein de notre organisme et monsieur Paul Simard, membre du conseil d'administration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18826             Écoutez, dans un premier temps, je tiens à remercier le CRTC pour l'invitation qu'il nous a lancée afin de vous faire connaître notre point de vue concernant la radio commerciale et de ce pas, j'emboîte immédiatement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18827             Nous nous sommes présentés à plus d'une reprise devant le CRTC depuis 1998 et en 2002 nous avons aussi partagé nos réflexions avec le Comité  permanent du Patrimoine canadien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18828             D'où vient notre intérêt pour la radiodiffusion, c'est que nous sommes d'avis que le développement de la Francophonie en Amérique du Nord, son avancement, son rayonnement dépendent en grande partie des médias visibles accessibles et soucieux de diffuser nos artistes francophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18829             Comme vous le savez, plus de la moitié des québécois demeurent dans le sud du Québec, soit en Estrie, dans la région de Montréal et en Outaouais et sont donc bombardés par des médias états‑uniens ou Canadians anglophones à contenus états‑uniens élevés.  On ne parle ici que de la radio et de la télévision classique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18830             En p lus de la radiodiffusion terrestre traditionnelle à laquelle la majorité des québécois et autres francophones du pays ont accès, il y a la télévision et la radio distribuées sur câble et par satellite qui nous inondent de centaines de choix provenant du continent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18831             Parlant de radio, seulement à Montréal, outre trois signaux sur bande AM en provenance de Plattsburg, Champlain et Burlington, on peut entendre clairement la radio états‑unienne sur les fréquences FM 92,9, 94,7, 99,9 et 107,9.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18832             Une des stations au format rock hip‑hop, laquelle cible un jeune public de 15 à 25 ans avec un studio à Chateauguay, ville pas très éloignée de l'État de New‑York et émetteur situé dans l'État de New‑York, la station WYUL va même jusqu'à prétendre maintenant être une station de Montreal and Northern New York.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18833             Elle a mis sur pied en mars 2006, vous le savez, un site web complètement bilingue et lorsque je dis *bilingue+, je parle d'un site en anglais et en français conçu expressément pour charger le jeune auditoire québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18834             Je ne suis pas contre le contenu en français du site web, cela va de soi, d'une station de radio états‑unienne, mais il s'agit ici d'une station qui ne fait qu'exporter vers le Québec du matériel non soumis aux objectifs de la Loi canadienne sur la radiodiffusion puisque sa licence lui a été émise par le Federal Communication Commission des États‑Unis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18835             Sans la radio francophone commerciale, communautaire et publique, nos artistes n'auraient pas accès à leur public.  Sans une radio forte et sans ses artistes, la population francophone aurait accès à quoi?  Au matériel culturel que le reste de l'Amérique du Nord consomme et lui offre gratuitement en grande quantité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18836             Il est donc essentiel que la radio et la télévision francophone soient bien distribuées par câble et par satellite et qu'elle soit visible et facile d'accès.  Il y a va de la rentabilité de ces médias et du développement de la francophonie sur ce continent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18837             En ce sens, l'Impératif français se rallie aux objectifs énoncés au paragraphe 8 de l'Avis Public, certaines suggestions du CRTC sont intéressantes.  Par contre, le CRTC aura‑t‑il le courage d'imposer quelques nouvelles règles qui sont conséquentes à la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18838             Le premier objectif parle d'une radio commerciale dynamique et bien financée dans les deux langues officielles de la Fédération canadienne est capable de contribuer à la réalisation des objectifs de la politique énoncée dans la Loi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18839             Les données publiées dans l'Avis d'audiences publiques aux paragraphes 26 et 27 sonnent l'alarme sur la rentabilité des stations de langue française indépendante par rapport à la moyenne canadienne.  Il y a des mesures que le CRTC devrait prendre pour aider la radio de langue française.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18840             Pour assurer la notoriété des stations commerciales de langue française, le CRTC devrait appuyer davantage la distribution des stations de radio de langue française par les entreprises de distribution par satellite.  Voici quelques observations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18841             Bell ExpressVu ne diffuse pas CKOI, pourtant la station FM la plus importante en terme de cote d'écoute dans le marché de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18842             Sur 19 stations de radio publique et commerciale, ExpressVu n'en diffuse que quatre en français dont seulement deux sont des radios commerciales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18843             Aucune entreprise de distribution par satellite n'offre une gamme de stations de radios commerciales de langue française en provenance de l'extérieur de Montréal.  Depuis 1998 Star Choice diffuse des stations de radio de SpokeCan et Seattle, État de Washington dans le renouvellement de licence, décision de radiodiffusion CRTC 2004‑84.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18844             Le CRTC renouvelle la licence de Star Choice avec les stations FM suivantes dont la liste... et là, je ne vous passerai pas la liste, il s'agit de stations en provenance des États‑Unis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18845             Le CRTC a accepté ce renouvellement de licence par cette entreprise de distribution par satellite qui ne trouve de la place que pour seulement sept stations de langue française dont uniquement cinq stations commerciales sur un total de 65.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18846             Les chiffres mêmes du CRTC indiquent qu'une rentabilité plus solide des stations de radio appartenant à des groupes de propriétés.  Il aurait donc été logique pour le CRTC d'accepter des demandes de licence de propriétés de groupes, par exemple, lors de l'attribution de licence en 2005 pour le marché de Gatineau et Ottawa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18847             Impératif Français ne comprend donc pas le refus du CRTC énoncé dans sa décision de radiodiffusion 2005‑257 à Corus Entertainment pour une station de radio commerciale.  Il y avait pourtant de la place pour au moins une autre station de langue française dans la région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18848             Il faut se rappeler qu'en 2001 aussi sur quatre nouvelles stations, il n'y avait qu'une seule nouvelle station de langue française.  Le déséquilibre s'est élargi en quelques années, ce qui a encouragé le glissement de l'auditoire vers les stations anglophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18849             Il est question de transfert d'auditoire vers les stations de radio anglaise dans le mémoire du Ministère de la culture et des communications du Québec, paragraphes 19 à 25.  Ces transferts sont dus en grande partie au manque de choix radiophonique en français.  Une meilleure gamme de services radiophoniques en français réduirait l'effet de transfert de l'auditoire francophone vers les stations anglophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18850             Impératif français fait état de la situation dans les régions de Gatineau et Ottawa dans un article qui a été publié en 2005 dans les principaux médias.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18851             Impératif français a d'ailleurs dénoncé la proportion trop peu élevée de nouvelles licences de radiodiffusion en Outaouais.  Le deuxième objectif cible porte sur la promotion des artistes canadiens et québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18852             Je peux vous assurer que non seulement Impératif Français appuie l'exigence de 65 pour cent de contenu vocal francophone de catégorie 2 formulé par le CRTC pour favoriser le rayonnement de la langue et de la culture d'expression française, mais il souhaite que ce seuil soit porté à 75 pour cent.  L'exigence d'au moins 55 pour cent de pièces vocales de langue française du lundi au vendredi et durant les heures de grande écoute est une politique louable.

Ce minimum devrait être haussé à 60 pour cent devrait être haussé à 60 pour cent et devrait aussi s'appliquer aux heures de grande écoute pendant les week‑ends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18853             Le CRTC doit s'assurer qu'il s'est doté des outils de surveillance du contenu canadien et de langue française pour s'assurer qu'il n'y a pas de délit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18854             Alors que les stations de radios de langue française sont soumises à une double obligation en matière de musique vocale, soit le contenu canadien et le contenu francophone minimal, les stations de langue anglaise ne sont tenues qu'au contenu canadien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18855             Alors que le premier objectif de la politique de 1998 vise une programmation canadienne et qu'une autre porte sur la dualité linguistique, le fardeau de ses obligations devrait être mieux partagé, sinon il est trop facile pour un radiodiffuseur anglophone d'implanter une station de langue anglaise où que l'on soit au Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18856             D'aucuns essaieront.  Par exemple, le 20 mars dernier Standard Radio se présentait devant le CRTC à Québec pour y exposer un projet de radio commerciale de langue anglaise de musique rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18857             Pourtant, selon le recensement de 2001, la région métropolitaine de recensement de Québec compte 9 845 personnes dont la langue maternelle est l'anglais, sur ses 673 100 habitants, soit 1,46.  C'est évident dans ce cas‑ci que c'est le jeune auditoire francophone que cette station vise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18858             Globalement, Impératif Français suggère que le CRTC exige des stations à contenu musical élevé de langue anglaise au Canada, que celles‑ci fassent leur part pour la diffusion de musique vocale de langue française et ainsi contribuer à l'atteinte des objectifs de la Loi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18859             En outre, entre autres, Impératif français suggère que les stations de musique de langue anglaise diffusent au moins 10 pour cent de leur musique vocale d'artistes francophones dont au moins les trois quarts d'artistes francophones canadiens et québécois et ce, sept jours sur sept et autant aux heures de grande écoute de 6 h 00 à 18 h 00 que durant les heures de moins grande écoute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18860             Impératif Français suggère que le CRTC exige des stations à contenu musical élevé de langue anglaise opérant au Québec que celles‑ci diffusent au moins 20 pour cent de leur musique vocale d'artistes francophones dont au moins 80 pour cent d'artistes canadiens et québécois et ce, sept jours sur sept autant durant les heures de grande écoute, 6 h 00 à 18 h 00 que durant les heures de moins grande écoute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18861             Impératif Français suggère que dans le cas des studios de stations anglophones situées près du territoire québécois et dont le périmètre de rayonnement est situé en grande partie en sol québécois ou dont l'antenne émettrice est située au Québec, par exemple, les stations radiophoniques FM d'Ottawa diffusant ici à partir de Camp Fortune, que le contenu musical exigé de langue française se situe au même niveau que dans le cas des stations anglophones du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18862             La règle voulant que les pièces musicales de langue française soient diffusées intégralement doit être maintenu.  Tournons‑nous vers l'objectif portant sur la variété plus large de genres musicaux et d'enregistrement d'artistes canadiens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18863             D'après les études du CRTC de 1997 et de 2005 sur les artistes dits de la relève, il est évident que les stations de radios commerciales de langue française font quelques efforts pour encourager les artistes de la relève, les nouveaux talents, du moins, si on les compare aux stations anglophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18864             Impératif Français se réjouit du progrès observé en 2005, 16,4 pour cent pour les stations de langue française et suggère qu'un seuil minimal, il est bien minimal de 15 pour cent soit maintenant exigé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18865             Lors de l'attribution d'une...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18866             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Excusez‑moi, monsieur Perreault.  Votre temps s'est écoulé.  J'aimerais peut‑être vous demander de conclure vos remarques, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18867             M. PERREAULT:  Oui, alors, merci, je vais aller immédiatement aux recommandations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18868             Alors, à la lumière de notre présentation et du document que vous avez en main, le CRTC doit agir... doit par contre agir en conséquence de ses propres objectifs et devrait notamment imposer la distribution des stations radios commerciales francophones par satellite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18869             Encourager les artistes canadiens en exigeant des stations anglophones du Canada et des stations anglophones du Québec des seuils minimaux de diffusion de musique vocale francophone d'artistes canadiens et québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18870             Encourager les artistes canadiens francophones en augmentant les minimums requis de contenu vocal de langue française diffusé par les stations de langue française.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18871             Encourager l'émergence de nouveaux talents en imposant un seuil minimal, encourager la programmation locale et canadienne, aider financièrement certaines stations, surtout les stations indépendantes qui doivent investir dans le passage à la technologie numérique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18872             C'est avec plaisir que nous répondrons à vos questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18873             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci.  Madame la conseillère Noël.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18874             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Bonjour mesdames, messieurs, monsieur Perreault.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18875             Monsieur Perreault, d'abord une question sur votre commentaire écrit au paragraphe 5, vous parlez de données inquiétantes et vous faites référence aux recettes brutes des stations de langue française qui ne représenteraient que 17 à 18 pour cent de l'ensemble des stations AM‑FM commerciales au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18876             Pouvez‑vous nous dire en quoi... comment vous en êtes arrivé à nous dire que c'était inquiétant?  Est‑ce que... j'aimerais comprendre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18877             M. PERREAULT:  Eh bien! écoutez; seulement 17, 18 pour cent de l'ensemble des recettes brutes alors que la proportion francophone au Canada est d'à peu près 25 pour cent, vous conviendrez avec nous qu'on pourrait s'imaginer et croire qu'il serait à peu près sensé, normal que ces recettes brutes aillent aussi chercher à peu près 25 pour cent de l'ensemble du total des recettes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18878             Vous avez là un écart en proportion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18879             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Est‑ce que vous avez des statistiques à l'effet qu'il y aurait 25 pour cent de francophones à l'heure actuelle au Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18880             M. PERREAULT:  Bien, c'est des statistiques publiées par Statistique Canada, recensement 2001, 25 pour cent de francophones et les québécois représentent aussi 25 pour cent de la population.  C'est des statistiques officielles, ça, publiées...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18881             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  J'avais l'impression que les taux avaient un peu baissé étant donné le peu de progression démographique notamment au Québec par rapport à certaines autres provinces comme l'Ontario, l'Alberta ou la Colombie‑Britannique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18882             M. PERREAULT:  Vingt‑cinq pour cent, madame, à plus ou moins un pour cent, je peux vous l'assurer, étant branché à l'année longue sur les statistiques officielles du dernier recensement, je peux vous garantir que c'est dans des proportions de facilement un sur quatre, 25 pour cent, et si les recettes brutes des stations de radios de langue française ne représentent que 17, 18 pour cent, vous conviendrez avec nous qu'il y a un écart qui joue en faveur des stations de radios de langue anglaise et, évidemment, il est important pour un organisme comme le nôtre de vous permettre de le constater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18883             Il y a un écart qui doit être comblé par des mesures qui pourraient aider à corriger cette situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18884             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Pour ce qui est de la diffusion de musique populaire vocale de langue française, vous souhaitez... vous souhaitez que le Conseil hausse la norme à 75 pour cent en période de grande écoute, 75 pour cent et que le montant passe de 55 à 60 pour cent aux heures de grande écoute, avez‑vous pu mesurer l'impact d'une telle augmentation, compte tenu de ce qu'on a entendu cette semaine, qu'une telle augmentation pourrait avoir sur les radiodiffuseurs francophones qui se trouvent déjà pénalisés, d'après ce qu'ils nous disent, par le double critère, par rapport aux stations anglophones?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18885             M. PERREAULT:  D'abord, je ne vois pas en quoi elles sont pénalisées selon un des communiqués émis par le CRTC sur la santé financière des stations de radios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18886             De 2004 à 2005 globalement, les profits de l'ensemble des stations de radios canadiennes qu'elles soient de langue française ou de langue anglaise ont augmenté les bénéfices avant impôt et intérêt ont augmenté de 24 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18887             En ce qui concerne les radios FM de langue anglaise, les bénéfices avant impôt et intérêts ont augmenté de 2004 à 2005 de 20,9 pour cent et pour les stations de langue française de 8,2 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18888             Vous conviendrez avec nous que la situation, si le 65 pour cent et le 55 pour cent avaient été à ce point dramatique, nous ne parlerions pas d'une augmentation des bénéfices comme de celles de je viens de vous faire part et ça, à partir d'un communiqué émis le 4 mai 2006 par le CRTC dont j'ai une copie devant moi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18889             Néanmoins, je pense que... néanmoins, je pense qu'il est tout à fait normal de demander aux stations de radios de langue française d'être de langue française et d'augmenter le contenu de pièces vocales de langue française diffusées.  De demander de passer de 65 à 75 pour cent, c'est tout simplement de demander une mesure de correction, de telle sorte que les stations de langue française soient davantage de langue française, qu'elles soient davantage axées sur la mission qui est la leur, la diffusion de la langue de la francophonie et de la culture d'expression française.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18890             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Les radiodiffuseurs nous ont expliqué cette semaine que le nombre de pièces musicales nouvelles ne leur permettaient pas d'en ajouter autant que vous souhaitez et que ce qui arrivait, c'est qu'on avait un phénomène où on brûlait les artistes émergents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18891             Pouvez‑vous me faire vos commentaires là‑dessus, en imposant un montant trop élevé de nouvelles pièces?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18892             M. PERREAULT:  Je suis particulièrement étonné de ce commentaire puisque, selon une étude réalisée par le Ministère de la culture et des communications du Québec, un très grand nombre de pièces, je pense, dans les 25 pièces vocales les plus importantes, elles vont chercher 50 pour cent du temps de diffusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18893             Je pense que... et c'est aussi une autre de nos recommandations, il faudrait qu'on accorde plus de temps de diffusion aux nouveaux talents, aux artistes de la relève.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18894             Vous savez, je pense que s'il y a une chose de certaine, c'est qu'il y a au Québec une culture très riche, très créative qui demande d'avoir accès aux ondes des stations de radios.  Malheureusement, les stations de radios diffusent très souvent les mêmes pièces vocales d'une station à l'autre, répètent très souvent les mêmes pièces, ce qui fait que les nouveaux talents et c'est un des soucis important des objectifs de l'Avis 2006, et il est important à mon avis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18895             Et vous savez, quand les stations de langue anglaise d'ailleurs qui disent manquer de contenu canadien pour respecter ‑‑ je parle des stations de langue anglaise ‑‑ qui manquent de contenu canadien pour respecter le 30 pour cent, eh! bien il faudrait peut‑être qu'elles apprennent...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18896             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  C'est 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18897             M. PERREAULT:  Il faudrait peut‑être qu'elles apprennent la réalité québécoise et francophone parce que jusqu'à preuve du contraire, ce qui se produit au Québec et ce qui se produit au sein de la francophonie canadienne est aussi canadien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18898             Et s'ils manquent de pièces vocales pour respecter le 30 pour cent, eh! bien il y a un bassin très productif de chansons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18899             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Monsieur Perreault, depuis 1998, c'est 35 et non pas 30.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18900             M. PERREAULT:  Merci beaucoup, mais ils ont de la difficulté avec le 35, alors on est prêt à les aider en vous demandant...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18901             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Maintenant, vous suggérez que les stations anglophones au Québec et les stations anglophones hors Québec soient tenues à des niveaux de musique de langue... à diffuser des niveaux de musique de langue française, 20 pour cent si elles sont au Québec ou si leur antenne est au Québec ou si elles sont captées au Québec et de 10 pour cent dans tous les autres cas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18902             Pour ce qui est du Québec, est‑ce que ça ne vous inquiète pas une proposition comme ça?  Est‑ce qu'il n'y aurait pas un glissement encore plus grand de l'écoute francophone vers les stations anglophones, et une réduction en conséquence des recettes publicitaires qui sont basées sur les sons BBM pour les stations francophones?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18903             M. PERREAULT:  Je n'aurai véritablement aucune inquiétude vous savez parce que, déjà les stations de langue française diffusent à peu près 35 pour cent de pièces vocales en langue anglaise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18904             Je pense que la contrepartie... vous savez, quand on connaît la situation asymétrique des cultures en Amérique du Nord et des langues, je pense que les mesures à adopter sont différentes d'une réalité à l'autre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18905             D'imposer un minimum de musique vocale de langue française de 75 pour cent et de 60 pour cent aux heures de grande écoute, ça c'est une mesure responsable, compte tenu de la situation de la langue de la francophonie et de la culture d'expression française et de la présence massive de la culture anglophone et américaine, surtout américaine autour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18906             De demander, d'imposer un seuil minimum de 10 pour cent et de 20 pour cent aux stations de langue anglaise, ça je pense que c'est une autre mesure responsable, mais différente, qui tient compte de la situation asymétrique pour les obliger à reconnaître qu'il y a une autre réalité, la réalité francophone du Québec, la réalité francophone de la Francophonie canadienne et de leur donner une place importante, d'autant plus qu'elles se plaignent de manquer de contenu canadien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18907             CONSEILLÈRE NOËL:  Monsieur le président, ce sont là mes questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18908             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci.  Monsieur le vice‑président Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18909             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Je vous ai vu pour la première fois aujourd'hui, donc je présume que vous n'avez pas assisté aux audiences au cours des jours précédents?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18910             M. PERREAULT:  Grâce à la technologie moderne, j'ai pu écouter à partir d'internet.  On vous en remercie d'ailleurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18911             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Donc, bienvenue.  Quand le groupe Standard Radio a comparu, la question de la musique francophone sur les stations de langue anglaise particulièrement celles de Montréal a été soulevée et monsieur Braide qui est le directeur général des stations de Montréal a fait l'observation suivante :  il a dit : vous devriez plutôt poser la question aux radiodiffuseurs francophones, il me semble qu'ils ne veulent pas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18912             Et la raison, il ne l'a pas donnée, mais elle nous est connue au Conseil, c'est de connaissance du Conseil, ça remonte dans le temps.  C'est que ça favorise le glissement des auditoires francophones vers les stations de langue anglaise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18913             L'expérience a été tentée par la station CHOM pendant plusieurs années et à tel point qu'un jour le Conseil a été obligé de demander à CHOM d'arrêter de diffuser de la musique de langue française.  À ce moment‑là, CHOM diffusait cinq pour cent de musique vocale de langue française et la majeure partie de son auditoire était essentiellement des francophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18914             Le Conseil d'ailleurs a noté dans sa question autant à l'ACR qu'à Astral Radio, Cogeco et à Standard que l'auditoire des jeunes francophones de Montréal, 68,4 pour cent des auditoires des trois stations FM de Montréal étaient essentiellement constituées de francophones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18915             Avez‑vous... pouvez‑vous peut‑être nous dire pourquoi ce phénomène‑là, qu'est‑ce qui attire les francophones vers ces stations de langue anglaise et qu'est‑ce qui attire aussi les francophones à la station WYUL que vous avez mentionnée?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18916             M. PERREAULT:  C'est le degré d'anglicisation des francophones qui et en cause.  C,est un problème qui excède de beaucoup la discussion ici aujourd'hui, bien qu'elle en fasse partie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18917             Vous savez, 91 pour cent des anglophones au Canada sont unilingues anglais, donc vous avez plus de neuf canadiens anglais sur dix qui ignorent, qui ne sont pas capables d'accéder à notre réalité.  Le taux de connaissance de l'anglais chez les francophones est au‑delà de 40 pour cent.  Si vous enlevez les enfants qui, évidemment, n'ont pas appris l'anglais, vous constaterez que c'est souvent dans des proportions de un francophone... six francophones sur dix qui connaissent l'anglais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18918             Cette anglicisation par la bilinguisation des francophones les amène, leur donne la possibilité d'écouter et d'accéder à l'autre culture.  Cet isolement du Canada anglais par son unilinguisme à quelque part, je pense que le Canada une responsabilité à laquelle peut contribuer le CRTC, mais je pense que l'unilinguisme anglais défavorise les stations de langue française et le bilinguisme des francophones, l'anglicisation des francophones avantage les stations de langue anglaise; je m'excuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18919             Et à cet égard, je pense que vous me demandiez une explication, je pense que l'essentiel de l'explication est là.  L'unilinguisme très répandu au sein du Canada anglais versus la connaissance très avancée de l'anglais au sein de la francophonie, ce qui crée, évidemment, une érosion de l'auditoire en faveur des stations de langue anglaise, mais au détriment des stations de langue française.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18920             Quand vous me dites que le temps d'écoute chez les jeunes de 12 à 17 ans, et c'est mentionné dans le mémoire du Ministère de la culture et des communications du Québec que 33 pour cent du temps d'écoute est consacré aux stations de langue anglaise, vous conviendrez avec nous que si les stations de langue anglaise ne diffusent aucun contenu canadien et pourtant canadien et elles se plaignent de manquer de contenu canadien, ne diffusent aucun contenu canadien de langue française, je pense que, là, il y a un phénomène d'érosion assez évident et l'érosion est double parce que même au sein des stations de langue anglaise, ils n'ont pas accès aux artistes de la francophonie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18921             Je peux comprendre le côté délicate de la recommandation que nous faisons, je pense qu'à cet égard il y aurait lieu, à mon avis de bien y réfléchir, mais néanmoins, il va falloir briser ce cercle qui va en s'accentuant de l'anglicisation et de l'érosion des auditoires à la faveur des stations de langue anglaise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18922             Il va falloir trouver une façon de briser ça. et ça, là‑dessus, jusqu'à preuve du contraire, la bilinguisation des anglophones n'a pas donné de résultat extraordinaire, ce qui fait qu'ils consomment très peu nos produits de langue française qui, pourtant, sont d'excellents produits puisqu'ils sont reconnus et nos artistes aussi, internationalement, mais ils ne peuvent pas les découvrir, ils n'ont pas accès à la...

LISTNUM 1 \l 18923             Ils n'ont pas de connaissance par la langue et les stations de radios ne les aident pas à leur donner le coup d'y accéder, ils ne diffusent aucun artiste de langue française.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18924             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Monsieur Perreault, ça va être ma dernière question.  Vous vous présentez devant le Conseil pour faire des recommandations.  Vous avez dit que vous avez comparu devant le Comité du Patrimoine probablement avec les mêmes préoccupations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18925             Est‑ce que vous avez déjà pris l'initiative de rencontrer des radiodiffuseurs eux‑mêmes, soit individuellement, soit par l'entremise... l'intermédiaire de leurs associations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18926             M. PERREAULT:  Un très grand nombre de nos interventions se font justement par média interposé, par interventions publiques.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18927             Vous savez, c'est ici même, je pense qu'Impératif Français vous avait sensibilisé à l'exclusion dont nous sommes victimes dans cette région‑ci par Bell ExpressVu dans le domaine de la télédiffusion.  Bell ExpressVu refuse toujours de diffuser entièrement la station Radio‑Canada régionale de langue française, alors que Bell ExpressVu diffuse la station régionale de langue anglaise, CBOT.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18928             Nous avons fait plusieurs interventions et même notre organisme a remis à plusieurs reprises un prix citron à Bell ExpressVu pour ses pratiques d'exclusion et pourtant dénonçait et plus d'une fois par notre organisme, mais par d'autres également.  J'ai lu des éditoriaux dans le journal Le Droit, et pourtant ces pratiques d'exclusions continuent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18929             Il y a eu des rencontres... il y a des rencontres chaque fois que nos intervenants...  il y a des rencontres par l'intermédiaire des médias.  Quand nous exposons des situations aussi inacceptables que celles qui ont une forte odeur de discrimination par la non‑diffusion de l'antenne régionale de Radio‑Canada, et je parle de la télé ici, vous conviendrez avec nous que... rencontres... s'ils souhaitent nous rencontrer à partir des déclarations que nous faisons, c'est avec plaisir que nous répéterons ce que nous avons dit publiquement et que nous vous répétons encore aujourd'hui et que nous vous avons dit à une des rencontres que nous avons eues ici concernant justement le cas de la radio publique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18930             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Je vous remercie, monsieur Perreault.  Je n'ai plus d'autres questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18931             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup messieurs, madame et mesdames.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18932             Madame la secrétaire, le prochain item, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18933             M. PERREAULT:  On vous remercie infiniment.  Au plaisir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18934             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci, monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18935             I would now invite the next participant, the Canadian Conference of the Arts, monsieur Alain Pineau, if you could come forward for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18936             Mr. Pineau, when you are ready,  you have ten minutes for your presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18937             M. PINEAU:  Merci.  Monsieur le président, mesdames et messieurs les commissaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18938             Depuis novembre dernier, j'ai l'honneur d'être le directeur général de la Conférence canadienne des arts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 18939             The Canadian Conference of the arts is a unique national organization with a long and proud tradition of service to the community and to a succession of Canadian governments and public agencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18940             For more than 60 years the CCA has represented the interests and been the national voice of Canada's arts and cultural communities from north to south, east to west, English and French.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18941             Artists, cultural producers and their associations from every medium and every part of the artistic continuum, creators, producers, distributors, exhibitors and the Heritage Institutions are under the CCA umbrella.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18942             Many are individuals CCA members, tens of thousands more are connected to us through professional cultural organizations in every arts discipline and trade association in all cultural industries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18943             Il me fait grand plaisir de vous présenter aujourd'hui le point de vue de la CCA dans le cadre de cette audience dont l'importance ne fait aucun doute.  Il y a plusieurs années que la CCA n'avait pas comparu devant le CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18944             Quant à moi, ma dernière intervention remonte à 1995 quand je présidais la délégation de Radio‑Canada requérant une licence de services audios payants.  Mes neuf dernières années à Radio‑Canada ont été consacrées au lancement et à la gestion de Galaxie, le service commercial de musique continue de Radio‑Canada actuellement encore le service dominant du genre au pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18945             À ce titre, j'ai acquis une certaine familiarité avec les questions de quotas contenus canadiens, de contributions financières au développement du talent de chez nous


LISTNUM 1 \l 18946             There is no doubt, this is a time of significant transition for Canadian radio broadcasters and for the music industry with which they have a long standing symbiotic relationship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18947             Audiences particularly younger Canadians are increasingly using new distribution technologies to receive music, news and information.

Web casting, broadcasting, downloading and all the other buzz words are having a real insignificant impact on both sectors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18948             Young people are as passionate about music as ever, but they are moving away from radio.  There are many reasons for this, but as was mentioned in this hearing, commercial radio is largely responsible for that reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18949             Over the life of the policy you are going to establish radio broadcasters will indeed be facing increased competition from streamed audio that can originate anywhere in the world to the recently licensed satellite radio subscription services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18950             Pourquoi la CCA se préoccupe‑t‑elle de la santé de l'industrie de la musique et des finances de la radio commerciale?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18951             À cause du contenu culturel dont elles sont responsables, les musiciens, les compositeurs, les interprètes et les producteurs contribuent de façon significatives à la définition de ce que nous sommes et de ce que nous avons à contribuer au dialogue mondial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18952             Les succès actuels de notre musique sont biens connus.  Il ne fait pas oublier que cette activité culturelle était pratiquement inexistante avant la réglementation actuelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18953             We must build on this success and continue to provide Canadians and the world with a rich diversity of Canadian music in every imaginable genres as well as Canadian perspective in news, sports and other information programming, that is local, regional and national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18954             History shows that where we regulate, the Canadian presence is much stronger than where we don't regulate.  We need only look at Canadian television and movies for proof.  For television?  There are public funding programs, Broadcasting Act provision, CRTC rules and regulations, Content rules and licence requirements.  For movies, there is only ‑‑ limited primarily to funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18955             The significant missing piece is Canadian content rules in movie theatres which have not been introduced for a variety of reasons and what has been the outcome?  After 50 years, we have a generally effective television system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18956             Many believe that the recent problems concerning English language television drama have a lot to do with regulatory changes that CRTC made in 1999.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18957             In cinema, we continue to struggle to achieve even a two per cent market share in English Canada.  Yet, the talent pool of the two industries is more or less the same.  So, the primary differences are regulations and control of distribution systems, two issues that are very close to the heart of the CCA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18958             Notre intervention insiste sur la nécessité non seulement de consolider la réglementation pour la radio commerciale, mais de l'étendre à toutes les plate‑formes de distribution.  Avec respect, nous nous demandons où en est la révision de l'exemption de 1999 promise pour 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18959             La CCA croit qu'il est critique d'assurer une offre substantielle de contenu canadien sur les services de musique offerts sur internet par abonnement ou autrement et de revoir la décision aberrante et potentiellement pernicieuse de contenu canadien sur la radio satellite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18960             CCA believes internet and DAB if it ever comes to pass, broadcasters can and should be regulated to ensure that they provide an appropriate supply of Canadian materials in their public offerings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18961             These regulations probably cannot be Canadian content rules as they exist in the traditional media since the material is not necessarily scheduled and broadcast the same way.  But the present situation seems untenable to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18962             We all want Canada's broadcasters to take full advantage of the new technologies offered by internet or DAB, but when they do so, they are no longer regulated and they can effectively be in competition with their own regulated offerings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18963             Internet service provider should also be asked as distribution  undertakings to provide access to Canadian sites and content and to make a financial contribution to arms‑length funding agencies that can be used to develop new Canadian content for the internet and other media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18964             In CCA's views, if such regulations are not introduced soon, we will see precipitous declines in the production of Canadian content materials of all kinds and our cultural industries will either become marginalized or merely browns plant producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18965             Pour en revenir à la radio commerciale, nous croyons qu'il est tout à fait approprié et réaliste d'augmenter le contenu canadian pour la musique de catégorie 2 à 40 pour cent ou plus, d'avantage si on songe à instaurer un système incitatif dans lequel cas il faut établir au moins un plancher de 35 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18966             Dans le cas de la musique classique, mon expérience comme responsable des cinq chaînes classiques de Galaxie me convient de la faisabilité de porter le contenu canadien à au moins 25 pour cent et pour le jazz à au moins 20 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18967             Dans tous les cas, ces proportions devraient être mesurées sur une base de trois heures de diffusion, de façon à mettre définitivement fin à toute tentation de *gettoïser+ la musique canadienne aux heures de faible écoute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18968             Encore une fois mon expérience à Galaxie m'a démontré de façon très claire que la musique canadienne particulièrement les nouveautés ne font pas fuir l'auditoire si la programmation est faite de façon compétente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18969             Côté francophone, nous appuyons les représentations faites par nos collègues et membres de maintenir la politique actuelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18970             The commercial radio system is financially sound and there is a good reason to expect that it will continue to be so for the next five to ten years.  Radio is a useful vehicle for advertisers because the medium is local, targeted and easily measurable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18971             CCA believes it's appropriate for the Canadian talent development contributions made by commercial radio broadcasters to increase dramatically to levels at least to return it to the 1995 ball park.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18972             We also believe strongly that new media, internet, satellite radio notably, be asked to contribute significantly more to Canadian talent development, this contribution being inversely proportional to the Canadian content that they offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18973             Let me finish by making a few comments about the debate on how these Canadian talent development funds should be disbursed.  CCA believes that Factor, Music Action, should continue to play the lead role in the system.  They presently operate about 20 different programs across a broad spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18974             There may be a role for the more targeted program offered by the Radio Star Maker Fund, Fonds Radio Star, which assist artists who have already achieved a certain level of success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18975             There may also be a role for the provincial music industry associations who have a better handle of local needs than anyone else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18976             But there must continue to be a place for Factor Musique Action, and arms‑length agencies that receive public funds and thus, adhere to strict operating and accountability standards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18977             In closing, if I may add, I think quite frankly that broadcasters' contributions for the next few years are probably more reliable than federal funding, at least until proven wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18978             Il me fera plaisir de répondre à vos questions si vous en avez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18979             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci, monsieur Pineau.  Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18980             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning, Mr. Pineau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18981             M. PINEAU:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18982             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Your oral presentation today was pretty true to your written submission, so I only have a couple of questions that are perhaps a bit more philosophical than they are detail‑oriented with regards to your submissions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18983             You do advocate varying levels of Canadian content for different genres of music and as you've said today, popular music at 40, classical at 25 and jazz to at least 20.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18984             Based on what you've heard this week, I am wondering if you could for us assess what you think the impact would be of Canadian content at one level for all genres of music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 18985             M. PINEAU:  Quite frankly, I don't think that's realistic.  I mean, we don't have... we don't provide the same... I mean, for example, there is currently no or hardly any hip‑hop music being produced here.  I mean, when services like Galaxie offer a hip‑hop channel, it offers a platform.  Regulation and distribution provide an opportunity for music to develop.  I think you have to realize that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18986             There was a long discussion internally and we consulted our membership because our membership covers a number of organizations who were here before and they are all over the map in terms of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18987             We try to strike something that is reasonable, achievable.  There were arguments, for example, that jazz could be more than 20 percent.  I think if it is so it should be gradual, because when we started with CanCon regulations there was hardly anything to speak of, so there is a first period where production comes but there are lots of weeds and everything gets played and eventually natural selection leads to the best to survive.  The more there is outlet, the more production there is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18988             So I think you could look at raising the level progressively over various genres, but you have to take into account the reality of life, which is that these things will evolve over time.  So there could be step‑up procedures.  You are looking at five years so I don't think it is material.  If you were looking at 10 years I think you should really look at graduating steps in various genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18989             By they way, if I may use this platform to say why we think that the Canadian content regulation for satellite radio is a burden, is that you don't create audiences by putting a big dustbin in the middle of the room where all genres confused are thrown in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18990             This is not the way people listen to music.  They don't listen to Canadian content.  People don't say, "Oh God, yes, I got the satellite service here.  I'm going to check what Canadian content is like today."  They want to hear, jazz, they want to hear rock 'n roll, they want to hear progressive, they want to hear ambient.  That is the way people use radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18991             What is important is that the Canadian content be weaved competently throughout the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18992             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  As you know, just about every broadcaster who has appeared before us this week has said if you raise Canadian content levels you will simply drive radio listeners to internet radio, to satellite radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18993             You obviously don't agree with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18994             MR. PINEAU:  No, I don't agree with that.  I think if they do their job properly they will find the right music and they will be able to put it into the programming the way that it fits.  I know that because they all use the same software that we use at Galaxie to do programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18995             It is all a matter of choosing the music and establishing the proper rules and you push the button and out it comes.  You check to make sure that the outcome is what you wanted, because no software system is perfect, but that is the way you do programming and that is the way you introduce talent.  And you do that no by hiring hackers who just plunk whatever comes in and say okay, I have my Canadian quota in today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18996             I don't want to sound disparaging to the radio industry, that is not the point, but there are ways of doing it that will not drive people away at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18997             In nine years at Galaxie ‑‑ and we had Canadian content, 38 percent spread over 45 channels.  That means that some channels had to be ‑‑ 1950s, you don't have much Canadian content to put there, so you have to make up at the other end by putting more Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18998             We had lots of Canadian content on the classical channels because there is lots of material.  Quite frankly, users of services like Galaxie or commercial radio don't really give a damn whether it is this conductor that conductor, as long as it is the piece that they like, because they are all competently recorded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18999             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You haven't checked your audio files recently, have you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19000             MR. PINEAU:  Sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19001             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those are fighting words.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 19002             MR. PINEAU:  Sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19003             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Choice of conductors is extremely important for many.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19004             MR. PINEAU:  Oh, it is, sir.  That is why I have a record collection at home.  But when I'm listening to Galaxie I am quite happy to listen to Beethoven's Fifth or Schubert's Eighth by a Canadian orchestra.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19005             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Just one final question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19006             In your written submission you say:

"A judicious reinterpretation of the definition of a Canadian recording..."

LISTNUM 1 \l 19007             And you note that artists such as Diana Krall may not qualify as Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19008             MR. PINEAU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19009             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Are you suggesting a retooling of the MAPL system?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19010             MR. PINEAU:  Well, we didn't delve into that question and I will just answer on a personal level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19011             When I was responsible for Galaxie I had a problem with the fact that she wouldn't qualify, quite frankly, as I have a problem with the fact that if it is Léopold Simoneau, or if it's Jon Vickers, this is not Canadian content?  I have a problem with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19012             I would not pose as an expert to say ‑‑ because there are many considerations to this, but I can only state that yes, we do have a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19013             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Pineau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19014             Those are all my questions, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19015             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just to follow up on that, when you refer to your own experience which I'm interested in here when you were in charge of classical for Galaxie, when you say you think, as you put it here:

" convaincre de la faisabilité de porter le contenu canadien au moins à 25 pour cent."

LISTNUM 1 \l 19016                  (Tel que lu)

LISTNUM 1 \l 19017             You are saying that was content level achieved at Galaxie for classical?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19018             MR. PINEAU:  Actually it was higher than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19019             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What was it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19020             MR. PINEAU:  It was only for compensation in other sectors and there is also lots of material available.  It depends.  We had five classical channels at Galaxie.  Opera was not very high.  There is not many opera ‑‑ quite frankly, I was very tempted to count as Canadian content an opera that had Jon Vickers in it even though it wasn't MAPL.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19021             Chamber music there are abundant recordings.  You don't have all the important stuff, but you have a lot of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19022             The pop classic, which is mostly what off‑air radio broadcasters are offering, there is ample choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19023             Where there are holes is somewhere in symphonic music and concertos, classical concertos, the most popular ones, but even those are coming available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19024             And there are other ways of doing that, too.  I mean, it's possible to purchase rights to recorded concerts or things like that.  I mean, when you want to there are ways of doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19025             I am a steady listener of the classical radio stations, it is my passion, and the kind of stuff that I hear there, they should have no problem meeting 25 per cent at all.  Quite frankly, I think it is a modest target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19026             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Under the MAPL rules?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19027             MR. PINEAU:  Yes.  Of course it will lead to a lot of royalties flowing into TEFL musique and l'Orchestre symphonique de Montréal, amongst others, to the CBC also, but ATNA and ELECTA, Marquis ‑‑ the gentleman was here earlier this week.  This was all material that we used extensively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19028             So there is more of a debate about the quality of Canadian recordings fitting MAPL for jazz, so we took a sort of compromise position there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19029             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19030             MR. PINEAU:  You are most welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19031             LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Arpin...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19032             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Vous parlez avec abondance de la musique classique.  Une audience qu'on a eu récemment, dont le Conseil n'a pas encore pris de décision, mais le requérant, qui était monsieur Collier, nous a dit qu'il était capable de supporter 40 pour cent de musique classique canadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19033             Est‑ce que vous trouvez, basé sur votre expérience, que c'est une proposition réaliste?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19034             M. PINEAU : Moi, je vais vous dire franchement, j'ai programmé personnellement la chaîne des Grands classiques, et j'ai programmé personnellement la chaîne Baroque, et un niveau de 50 pour cent est facile à atteindre quand vous comptez la rotation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19035             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui, évidemment.  Oui, oui.  Je suis sûr qu'il comptait la rotation, puis il avait suffisamment d'expérience pour répondre à la question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19036             M. PINEAU : Quarante pour cent, je... puis, d'ailleurs, monsieur Collier sait de quoi il parle là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19037             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19038             M. PINEAU : Je le respecte beaucoup à ce chapitre‑là.  C'est un grand amateur de musique classique, puis il connaît ses enregistrements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19039             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Et, donc, il y a suffisamment... parce que vous avez mentionné Jon Vickers et quelques autres qui ont enregistré sur des labels étrangers, et je pense à monsieur Hamelin, je pense à Alain Trudel.  Je sais qu'il y a beaucoup d'enregistrements qui sont faits en Europe.  Mais c'est encore le même problème que vous avez mentionné avec Diana Krall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19040             M. PINEAU : Oui.  Oui.  Mais malgré ça, même en disant que ces gens‑là ne compteraient pas comme contenu canadien ‑‑ et, encore une fois, j'ai un problème à ce chapitre‑là ‑‑ je pense que le contenu... MAPL devrait peut‑être être un peu modulé en fonction des genres musicaux.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19041             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Bon, d'accord.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19042             Il y a d'autres intervenants qui ont soumis au Conseil, encore dans le secteur de la musique classique, que le Conseil devrait penser à une réglementation qui favoriserait les compositeurs canadiens.  Un groupe a mentionné 3 pour cent, et un autre groupe a mentionné 5 pour cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19043             Croyez‑vous que ce sont des demandes qui sont réalistes?  Je parle bien de compositeurs canadiens.  Donc, c'est de la musique beaucoup plus contemporaine.  Est‑ce qu'il y en a suffisamment, basé sur votre expérience sur disque et puis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 19044             M. PINEAU : Il y en a suffisamment, je le crois.  Oui, il y en a une bonne quantité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19045             Mais là, vous avez mis le doigt sur quelque chose qui est extrêmement difficile à discuter.  J'étais toujours dans une position très difficile à Galaxie quand j'allais devant le Conseil québécois de la musique pour donner des bourses à des artistes, où on se faisait interpeller, justement, sur le fait que sur 45 scènes, il n'y en a pas une qui soit consacrée à la musique contemporaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19046             Vous avez le même débat qui est soulevé chaque fois que Radio‑Canada apparaît devant vous.  Il y a un problème là, puis moi, je dois dire que de ce côté‑là... le côté commercial chez moi l'emporte sur le côté nationaliste.  C'est qu'il faut être réaliste aussi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19047             Est‑ce que... il faut que cette musique‑là soit diffusée, mais ce n'est peut‑être pas dans le broadcasting que ça se fait.  Les nouvelles technologies permettent d'offrir ce genre de musique‑là.  Cette musique‑là, le public doit y être introduit par le biais des concerts et tout.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19048             Il y a toute une infrastructure derrière ça.  Demander à des gens qui doivent vivre de revenus commerciaux puis attirer du monde, de jouer de la musique qui est tellement marginale, je regrette de le dire là, je vais peut‑être me faire tuer par les membres que je représente, mais personnellement, ma sympathie est partagée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19049             CONSEILLER ARPIN : On risque de l'entendre à 6 h 00 le matin ou à 11 h 00 le soir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19050             M. PINEAU : Oui, probablement, un peu comme c'était à Radio‑Canada, d'ailleurs, où ça passait à 11 h 00 le soir les fins de semaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19051             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je vous réfère à votre page 6... et là, la question, je vais vous la poser en anglais.  Vous pouvez y répondre selon votre choix.  Effectivement, c'est dans votre dernier paragraphe en anglais de la page 6.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19052             Ma question, c'est : Do you have substantive proof to sustain that if internet rules are not shortly introduced production of Canadian content will decline?


LISTNUM 1 \l 19053             M. PINEAU : Je m'excuse, je cherche...

LISTNUM 1 \l 19054             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Parce que vous dites :

"If such regulations are not introduced soon, we will see precipitous declines of the production of Canadian content materials of all kinds."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 19055             M. PINEAU : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19056             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Est‑ce que vous avez... pouvez‑vous documenter cette affirmation‑là?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19057             M. PINEAU : Non, pas au sens statistique du mot.  Puis ça serait difficile de le faire, d'ailleurs, parce que c'est une prédiction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19058             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19059             M. PINEAU : Maintenant, precipitous, on peut argumenter sur qu'est‑ce qui est precipitous là, est‑ce que c'est cinq ans ou est‑ce que c'est 10 ans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19060             Ça pris 30 ans pour construire l'industrie de la musique qu'on a actuellement, qui réussit à travers le monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19061             Ça peut prendre beaucoup moins de temps pour la démanteler parce que... je vais prendre l'exemple qui était... les gens qui me précédaient ici tout à l'heure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19062             On le sait que ça prend une seule génération pour effacer un groupe linguistique.  Je connais plein de gens dont les noms sont tout à fait francophones et dont les parents parlaient français et qui ne comprennent pas aujourd'hui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19063             Bien, c'est un peu la même chose aussi.  Avec l'explosion des moyens de distribution qu'on a maintenant... et toutes ces questions‑là sont interreliées.  Ce n'est pas pour rien qu'on mentionne ici la question de la propriété étrangère, qui va certainement faire l'objet d'un débat politique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 19064             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19065             M. PINEAU : ...très actif chez vous et ailleurs, et on y sera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19066             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Je suis sûr.  Sûr, sûr, sûr.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19067             M. PINEAU : Absolument.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19068             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Donc, si je vous comprends bien, c'est que vous nous invitez à la vigilance et non nécessairement à introduire une instance réglementaire dès la semaine prochaine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19069             M. PINEAU : Non, mais je vous dirais que le mois prochain serait déjà pas trop tard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19070             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Ah! bon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19071             M. PINEAU : Et si je peux me permettre, on aura peut‑être des suggestions à faire qui pourraient être constructives à ce chapitre‑là, parce que je comprends les réalités commerciales de la radio satellite, qui était ici plus tôt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19072             Quand les chaînes viennent des États‑Unis, ça va prendre du temps avant que le contenu canadien soit très élevé là‑dessus.  Mais il y a d'autres façons, puis j'écoutais avec intérêt comment est‑ce qu'ils contribuent au développement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19073             Bien, s'ils ne sont pas capables de contribuer au développement en exposant puis en donnant des tribunes, parce que ce n'est pas deux chaînes francophones qui vont donner beaucoup, beaucoup d'exposure.  Ce n'est pas rien que de mettre ça en l'air, c'est de voir qui l'écoute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19074             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19075             M. PINEAU : Demandez‑leur quand ils reviendront chez vous quelles statistiques ils ont sur l'écoute qu'il y a de ces chaînes‑là spécifiquement.  Ils sont assez riches pour se payer cette recherche‑là, je pense, avec les backers qu'ils ont.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19076             CONSEILLER ARPIN : On s'est fait dire à l'audience par les gens du groupe Jim Pattison ‑‑ évidemment, ils ne nous ont pas donné des données sur l'écoute francophone, mais ils nous ont donné des données globales ‑‑ que la part de marché de la radio par satellite, selon BBM du printemps 2006, dans le marché de Kamloops, c'était 9 parts de marché.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19077             M. PINEAU : Oui.  Mais ce qui est important de regarder là‑dedans pour ceux qui viennent dire, on fait du contenu canadien, holà, holà, c'est qui l'écoute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19078             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19079             M. PINEAU : Ce n'est pas rien que d'en mettre sur une tablette.  Si c'est là, puis que personne n'y touche, puis que c'est couvert de poussière...

LISTNUM 1 \l 19080             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Et je comprends que c'est 9 parts consolidés des 200 canaux qui sont là, parce qu'il y a deux entreprises, hein.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19081             M. PINEAU : Je reconnais, cependant, qu'ils font une contribution, puis j'étais très intéressé de les entendre parler de ce qu'ils font en terme d'exposure, puis en terme d'entrevue, puis en terme de publicité, puis en terme d'argent surtout, parce que s'ils ne sont pas capables de donner une tablette ou un débouché que le monde va écouter pour vraie là, bien, qu'ils compensent en donnant plus d'argent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19082             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19083             M. PINEAU : C'est ça, puis c'est la même chose pour internet.  Puis vous allez nous revoir réintervenir sur une autre demande qui est devant vous concernant la distribution de ces signaux‑là sur le câble, parce que ça, c'est the thin edge of the wedge là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19084             CONSEILLER ARPIN : Oui.  Écoutez, on se reverra à ce moment‑là.  Je vous remercie, Monsieur Pineau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19085             M. PINEAU : Je ne pense pas qu'il y aura d'audience publique, mais vous allez me lire.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 19086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Pineau, when you were programming the classical stations for Galaxie, did you ever track record sales?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19087             One of the arguments that we have heard is that record sales of Canadian recordings appear to be at the 16 percent level overall.  I don't think it was broken down by category.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19088             Do you have any idea of classic record sales percent Canadian of the classical record sales?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19089             MR. PINEAU:  No, I'm sorry, I don't have that information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19090             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have never tracked that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19091             MR. PINEAU:  No, I'm sorry, I don't have that information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19092             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think it is a pertinent consideration in establishing content quotas?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19093             MR. PINEAU:  I don't think so, quite frankly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19094             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why is that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 19095             MR. PINEAU: