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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages
Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Metropolitan Conference Centre de conférence
Centre Métropolitain
333 Fourth Avenue South West 333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 22, 2006 Le 22 février 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président
Helen del Val Commissioner / Conseillère
Elizabeth Duncan Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseillier
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseillier
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet Secretary / Secrétaire
Leanne Bennett Legal Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
Steve Parker Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Metropolitan Conference Centre de conférence
Centre Métropolitain
333 Fourth Avenue South West 333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 22, 2006 Le 22 février 2006
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I (cont.)
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Inc. 338 / 2194
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group 435 / 2865
Yadwinder S. Sivia (OBCI) 525 / 3433
Rawlco Radio Ltd. 628 / 4218
Calgary, Alberta
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, February 22, 2006
at 8:00 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 21882188 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12189 I would ask that you make sure that all cellphones, blackberries, and beepers are turned off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12190 We will begin with Item No. 5, and I would ask Madam Secretary to introduce the Applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12191 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As mentioned, we will proceed with Item No. 5 on the agenda, which is an application by Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12192 The new station would operate on Frequency 92.9 Mhz, Channel 225‑C1, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 301.7 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12193 Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Vince Tripathy. Mr. Tripathy will introduce his colleagues. He will then have 20 minutes for his presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12194 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you. Before we begin, we would like to indicate for the record that three documents were filed this morning, which were in response to a deficiency letter request, indicating change of directorship within our company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12195 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The documents will be put in the public record, and they will be available to the participants at this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12196 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12197 I was thinking this morning that it was 25 years ago this September that I started my broadcast career. You are going through the butterflies and the jitters before you get up here, and it was interesting to realize how far it has been from starting in Rosetown, Saskatchewan, to being in front of the Commission this morning here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12198 That being said, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Staff, I would like to introduce our team. I am Vince Tripathy, President of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated, and General Sales Manager of STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12199 To my far right is Rick Meaney, Vice President of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated, and General Manager of STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12200 Next to Rick is Mike Bagshaw, Secretary of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated, and Retail Sales Manager of STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12201 To my immediate left is Laurie Healy, Program Director and shareholder in STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12202 Next to Laurie is Paul Kuster, Aboriginal Liaison and co‑host of "First Nations Friday" on STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12203 On my far left is Jim Bagshaw, shareholder and advisor to STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12204 Directly behind me is our consultant, Shyla Dutt.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12205 Unable to be with us today, because he is out of the country, is Terry Strain, a shareholder in our company, and an advisor, with 40 years in radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12206 The principals of STAR FM are all long‑time residents with commitments to Calgary, all with extensive broadcast experience, all able to react to the needs of Calgarians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12207 This experienced group represents the best of both worlds, an independent rooted in Calgary, best able to understand and react to the needs of Calgarians, with the expertise and the resources to ensure the viability of this radio station, which, in turn, will meet community needs in one of Canada's most dynamic cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12208 Collectively, STAR FM has over 130 years of broadcast experience. Most of that is right here in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12209 Rick, Jim and Terry have all served on the boards of the CAB and the WAB.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12210 Jim has been the Chairman of BBM, and also received Broadcaster of the Year from the WAB.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12211 Rick received a Gold Ribbon for CTD from the CAB, and a Gold Medal for Community Service from the WAB.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12212 Aside from broadcasting, members of our group have made significant contributions on a community level, including serving on boards for Mount Royal College, the Salvation Army, 17th Avenue Rejuvenation, Junior Achievement, the United Way, and the Calgary Children's Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12213 Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters is indeed a group of Calgarians dedicated to creating radio for Calgarians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12214 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we are very excited about 92.9 STAR FM. The format will bring a new voice and a new sound to Calgarians that will fill a void in the market: yesterday's favourites and hits of tomorrow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12215 The radio station is designed by Calgarians, for Calgarians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12216 Its staff will reflect the diversity of the community and address community needs through our high levels of news, lifestyle and special interest programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12217 STAR FM will truly be a radio station that is designed to showcase Canadian talent, especially artists from Alberta, as well as Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12218 The history of broadcasting shows that through the many challenges that radio has faced over the years, it has been the independent that has helped to initiate the changes to enable us not only to survive, but to thrive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12219 MR. J. BAGSHAW: Mr. Chairman, I am particularly excited to be in the company of these young entrepreneurs. They have dedicated a great deal of their time, imagination, and money to the development of what I believe to be an exciting new look at radio that will have significant impact in the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12220 My broadcast career began in 1974. I bring that up only because of the gentleman I started my career with, Dr. Charles Allard. He was a true entrepreneur. During my years with him, we built a small television station in Edmonton into what was at one point the most successful independent television station in Canada, later to become WIC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12221 The application before you today is built in that same entrepreneurial spirit. It is local, independent, and dedicated to the Calgary market with concrete dreams to fulfill a market void in Calgary ‑‑ the dreams that Western Canadian entrepreneurs such as Dr. Allard and Frank Griffiths brought to life.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12222 As Doug Holtby, a former colleague of mine, stated in his support letter:
"In this broadcast environment of increased consolidation and concentration, I respectfully urge the Commission to license local applications whenever possible. I steadfastly believe that locally owned broadcast stations are tuned in more closely to the pulse of their community, and consequently are better equipped to recognize and respond to the community's needs. Local ownership creates more diversity in our global broadcast environment, a factor which blends to a truer reflection of the diversified Canadian society in which we live."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12223 MR. MEANEY: Mr. Chairman, local entrepreneurs have made Calgary what it is today. The frantic pace of business activity and economic expansion continues, fuelled by high energy prices, strong migration, a red‑hot construction sector, a resilient housing market, and the fastest growing retail spending in Canada. Calgary's economy has never been better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12224 Calgary's growth and prosperity is reflected in its radio market. Calgary is the most profitable radio market in Canada, and has been for the past seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12225 In 2005, radio revenues reached $76 million. To date, the market is growing at 11.6 percent. At this rate of growth, the Calgary radio market will top 100 million by 2009.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12226 Calgary is ready and able to support a new radio station; not any radio station, but a station that will program to the most under‑served demographic in the city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12227 We have heard from many adult Calgarians, who have expressed a frustration with Calgary radio. They cannot find a station that plays their favourite music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12228 We understand their frustration, based on our knowledge of the existing radio format and the research that we commissioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12229 In June of 2005, we arranged for Bannister Research to conduct a survey to determine the best music format for a new FM station in Calgary. Two formats emerged as having the greatest cume and core potential. They were modern rock and seventies and eighties soft rock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12230 The results also show that modern rock was much easier to find on the FM dial than seventies and eighties soft rock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12231 Therefore, our research concluded that seventies and eighties soft rock, due to its strong format viability, represents the best choice to fill the void in the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12232 Since our music research was conducted last June, three Calgary stations have altered their formats, creating an even larger opportunity for a seventies and eighties soft rock station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12233 CHFM, the adult contemporary station, is playing a brighter music mix, which means that they are targeting younger.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12234 The smooth jazz station, The Breeze, has rebranded itself and is now called California 103. Ninety‑three percent of their music is from 1990 to current, and they, too, have lowered their target demo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12235 CKMX‑AM changed its format in July from adult standards to traditional country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12236 There is now a complete absence of popular soft music on the FM band that would appeal to a 35‑plus audience. STAR FM will fill this void with what our research shows is the most appealing music to this under‑served demographic. We will fill the need in the marketplace and have the least impact on existing stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12237 With a limited number of full‑power FM frequencies still available, we feel that a broad‑based format targeting the 35 to 64 demographic is the best use of the 92.9 FM frequency, and would maximize the reach of a new and distinct voice in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12238 This brings us to today, to a station that we believe is the best choice for licensing and meeting the needs of Calgarians ‑‑ 92.9 STAR FM.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio
LISTNUM 1 \l 12239 MS HEALY: Mr. Chairman, building on what is the void in the market ‑‑ yesterday's favourites ‑‑ we are adding on hits of tomorrow, those hits that have the feel and sound compatible with soft rock, that provide a suitable resonance and are similar in temperament.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12240 This combination will give listeners the old favourites they still want, yet provide rejuvenation through new and upcoming artists, whose music is in sync with the feel and experience of soft rock from the seventies and eighties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12241 Much of that new music will come from Canadians, such as Harry Manx, The Philosopher Kings, Karla Anderson from Stoney Plain, and, of course, staying true to our local roots, music from Calgarians like James Keelaghan, Tim Tamashiro, Feist, and Tariq.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12242 Our diversity of musical selections will be a unique sound in the traditional adult contemporary genre. We will endeavour to pleasantly surprise our listeners with culturally diverse sounds that reflect our community, while providing the music that our listeners grew up with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12243 Speaking of growing up, we propose to present a two‑hour kids' show, "Kids' Radio". It will be a music‑intensive specialty program that won't stray from our soft rock format, yet will incorporate Canadian music specifically targeted to kids.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12244 A great example comes from the Juno‑nominated CD "The Fabulous Song", featuring a number of Canadian musicians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12245 As well, young Calgarians will be front and centre on "Kids' Radio", along with pet features, interviews with local sports heroes, school events, kids' jokes, and more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12246 We are very excited about "Kids' Radio", as there simply isn't anything like it in the market. We are completely committed to the concept, should we be licensed for STAR FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12247 We will get in depth with our local artists on the hour‑long "Stars Alive on FM", a monthly program, to be recorded live at the Beach in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12248 Our weekly half‑hour show "Your World", will bring a serious and not‑so‑serious look at global news and bring it back to a local level, while highlighting songs from our world music category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12249 Restaurant reviews by well‑known local critic John Gilchrist is one example of our spoken word programming that will be fun and informative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12250 STAR FM will bring a new editorial voice to the market. Currently there is no news on Calgary FM stations after 9:00 a.m. until 4:00 p.m. weekdays. We, however, will commit to hourly news packages from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through Friday, and 6:00 a.m. to noon on weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12251 In addition, we will include a comprehensive segment specifically relevant to Calgarians, called "The Morning Interview", at 10:00 a.m., which will be repeated at 6:00 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12252 "Entertainment This Evening", an hour‑long weekday show, will always present the latest events and performance calendars from venues across the city. Local interviews, news, comedy, gossip, and lots of music will all be a part of "Entertainment This Evening".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12253 Paul Kuster, our Aboriginal Liaison person and co‑host of "First Nations Friday", will now tell you about our aboriginal programming and community connections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12254 MR. KUSTER: Mr. Chairman, we will go beyond our dollar commitment to the aboriginal community by truly supporting First Nations music with a dedicated show on Friday evenings called "First Nations Friday". Accomplished Canadian musician and actor, Tom Jackson, and I will co‑host the program, highlighting the talent of aboriginal artists, such as Calgary's Sandra Sutter and Les Jerome, along with others, like Derek Miller, and Eagle and Hawk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12255 I would also like to talk about community involvement. There will be a seven‑member advisory committee that will provide ongoing feedback on music selections and a range of issues. Meetings with local artists and members of the community will be done in an open‑house forum twice a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12256 In an age of huge technological change, Calgary Independent Radio believes that the ability to truly reflect community and to be relevant to the changing make‑up of Calgary will allow traditional radio to thrive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12257 Being local means being connected. STAR FM will be very excited to support, and have the support of, the Federation of Calgary Communities. Listeners will be automatically connected with the 137 community associations across the city through daily on‑air reports, and will be instantly linked through STAR FM's website.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12258 STAR FM will regularly air public service announcements for community organizations and community campaigns on a daily basis, for at least a total of three minutes at day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12259 The types of organizations that will be accorded these services will include the United Way, health organizations, farmers' organizations, immigrant services centres, shelters for women, and Native Friendship Centres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12260 MR. BAGSHAW: Mr. Chairman, as an independent we recognize the importance of this licence. Calgary Independent Radio is committed to making a Canadian Talent Development contribution that is both affordable and, for a new standalone station, meaningful. Our aim is an owned and operated Calgary company to bring our talent initiatives as close to home and make them as impactful as possible on the day‑to‑day lives of local musicians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12261 Our proposed Canadian Talent Development package is valued at $2.1 million over the seven‑year licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12262 I would like to list these for you. The Western Canadian Professional Talent Development Fund would receive $734,000. The Aboriginal Scholarship Fund would receive $56,000. Aboriginal radio would receive $70,000. The Calgary Association for the Development of Music Education would receive $250,000. ARIA, the Alberta Recording Industry Association, would receive $200,000. FACTOR would receive $160,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12263 We have a commitment from FACTOR. Their contributions will be used specifically for Alberta artists, as indicated in their letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12264 There will be a proposed part‑time Canadian Talent Development co‑ordinator, at $100,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12265 Local Calgary festivals would receive $560,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12266 Mr. Chairman, we would like to point out that these are direct cost contributions to CTD. We are confident that these substantial contributions to Canadian talent will make a difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12267 MR. TRIPATHY: Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, we believe that our local ownership group, with its local community roots, will deliver a different radio experience that will reflect Calgarians. We will be a new player, bringing a new, locally based editorial voice to Calgary and the Canadian radio industry, with programming developed locally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12268 Our entry into the market will have a minimal impact on the existing stations, given their continued profitability and the prospect of continued growth in red‑hot Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12269 Our proposed musical format, designed to serve the under‑served segment in Calgary, will add diversity and competitiveness, ensuring our business success to become a stable and a growing force on the Calgary broadcast scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12270 Our programming format will embrace the multicultural and aboriginal diversity of Calgary, and give it a presence on our proposed broad‑based station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12271 The Federation of Calgary Communities will be a real partner in reflecting our community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12272 Our proposal of 35 percent commitment to Canadian content is reasonable and practical for a new station targeted at an older demographic. It becomes more meaningful when you consider that we are committed to new and emerging artists, especially those from Calgary and Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12273 We have made a substantial commitment to Canadian talent of $2.1 million, yet it is not just about writing a cheque, it is about having meaningful results.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12274 Our initiatives are intended to leverage the opportunities for artists right here in the Province of Alberta, and, in particular, here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12275 Actions speak louder than words. This group will prove it. We are here for the long haul, an independent that has the staying power to be here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12276 We thank you for your time, and we welcome your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would ask Madam Helen del Val to question you with respect to your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12278 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12279 Your presentation this morning has clarified some of the questions that I had anticipated asking, so thank you for that. There are a few more points, though.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12280 In your supplementary brief, it wasn't clear whether the core audience group you would be targeting would be 35‑plus or 45‑plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12281 It is quite clear that you would be targeting the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic. With the presentation this morning, can we confirm that the core target group would be 35‑plus?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12282 MR. TRIPATHY: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, in response to that answer, we do have an overall broad‑based target of 35 to 64.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12283 I would ask Laurie Healy to answer that question in a little more detail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12284 MS HEALY: Certainly you are correct that our broad‑based and our target demo will be 35‑plus. We will specifically be looking closer at the 35 to 54 demographic, but we realize that our music will also fall into the up to 64 range, for sure, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12285 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So you would have a broad appeal across the general 35 to 65 age group, but the programming focus would be 35‑plus, rather than a median age of 45 or so?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12286 MS HEALY: Yes, that is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12287 Rick might be able to speak more to the demographics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12288 MR. MEANEY: Our tight target is the 35 to 54 demographic. That is where we will be aiming our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12289 Of course, because we will be the softest music on the dial, it will appeal to people who are over 55.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12290 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: You are quite confident that the programming designed to appeal to 35‑plus will also appeal to the broader base?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12291 MS HEALY: Yes, I am very confident that our music will, in fact, do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12292 When we break down our music in terms of the areas that we will play, we are certainly looking at playing music ‑‑ our home will be the seventies, with about 30 percent of our music coming from the seventies category.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12293 We are also going to have a bit of life in the sixties ‑‑ about 10 percent. That will add some spice. Certainly, that also speaks to our 55‑plus audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12294 For the remainder, we will live about 25 percent in the eighties, which will be keeping true to our format of seventies and eighties music. More than 50 percent will come from those two decades.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12295 Then, of course, the remaining 35 percent we will achieve from the nineties up to today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12296 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12297 I think you are well aware that there are at least three other applicants ‑‑ Evanov, the Pattison Group, and 1182743 Alberta Co. ‑‑ which are targeting the same group, with, more or less, a similar music format. How would your station, or your proposed format, differ from their proposed formats?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12298 MS HEALY: I think we will bring a large amount of difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12299 I am sure that Vince and Rick will both be able to speak to this, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12300 Certainly, when we talk about the difference between the other applicants, you make a good point, straight off the top, that they are targeting specifically 45‑plus. We are actually coming down a bit lower, to 35‑plus in our music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12301 We are not going to live in an instrumental world. That is another example, where another applicant has suggested that that will be a component to their application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12302 Our music is mass appeal. It is soft rock music. It is mass appeal music. It is something that can reach across the generations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12303 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Laurie's comments, one of the other areas on this application ‑‑ and it is very important to us, and you will hear it over and over again in the next few minutes. This group of broadcasters is from Calgary. We recognize that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12304 We also recognize that technology has become a very, very big part of what is going on, as has the Commission, in some of the restructuring that has been done in the last few months. As a result of that, we really feel that, as much as community has been a big part of programming in the past, it has to become even more integral if we are going to survive as traditional radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12305 To that point, our spoken word content is very much going to be Calgary based, and that will be another point of differentiation relative to some of the other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12306 Rick, I would ask you to enhance on that, if you could.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12307 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, the other three applicants are older than we are, in terms of their targeting, and in their music choices. I have noticed that they will be playing artists such as Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and the likes, which we will not, making them older.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12308 Also, one applicant, Mr. Evanov, has a 35 percent instrumental component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12309 There is a smooth jazz station in the market that has an instrumental component, so we have chosen not to go there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12310 These three formats are designed on a station in Parksville, another one in Vancouver, and then one in Newmarket. Calgary is a younger city than those three centres, and we feel that the music here should have a slightly younger appeal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12311 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I will come back to the spoken word programming in a minute, but what about the existing tuning options?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12312 I think there are a few tuning options for the 35 to 44 adult demographic in Calgary right now. For example, the AC station, CHFM Classic Rock, and CFGQ. Then there is the AOR station, CJ, as well as the smooth jazz station, and there is also a classic hits station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12313 How do you think your proposed station will differ from those?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12314 MS HEALY: I will start with your list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12315 CHFM is living in the 1990s and beyond. As you may have heard in our presentation, we referred to it as about 93 percent ‑‑ which is an approximate number ‑‑ of their music being from 1990 and later. In fact, their music is targeting a much younger demo than what we are looking at, 35‑plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12316 The other stations, quite frankly, have a sound that is very much targeted to a male audience, and we are intending to skew more to a female audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12317 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Laurie's comments, we had this discussion last night, because obviously we were anticipating a question similar to this, and I guess the discussion ultimately surrounded the fact that there is no doubt that there are other services that are delving into some of those other demos.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12318 I think the question ultimately gets down to, as great a job as the radio stations are doing in this marketplace, after taking a look at our research that came back to us, it appears that the bottom line is that there is more room for growth in those particular demos.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12319 To that point, if I could, Rick, I would ask you to enhance a bit on the research we did.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12320 MR. MEANEY: To add to what Laurie said, CHFM is a current‑based AC station. Eighty percent of their music is from 1990 to current, even the smooth jazz station's music is from 1990 to current, the bulk of it, and Q107 and CJ are both rock stations, primarily targeted to the male audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12321 So we believe that those stations are getting tuning in the demo that we are intending to go after, but some of those listeners may not be able to hear their favourite music on the FM band, and that is why they are listening to these stations, because they are getting some of the music they want, but not all of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12322 That's why we are different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12323 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Where do you think your listeners will come from then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12324 You talk a lot about the void. Where are these listeners now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12325 MR. MEANEY: Madam Chairman, if I could, our research shows that our listeners would come from JACK FM, from CBC, from Q107, which is a classic rock station, and Country 105, and CHFM would then fall in after that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12326 So they would come from all over.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12327 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the other point with regards to radio stations, if I may add, Rick, is that radio formatting and programming ‑‑ and we all have different lifestyles. There is music, and then there is the psychographics, the type of lifestyles that we are leading on a day‑to‑day basis. This radio station is designed to speak to some of those things, whether it is a busy parent with kids running around between sports events, or whatever happens to be going on during the day, or a business person who is going to be heading downtown for an office meeting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12328 That is another element that comes in, aside from the music positioning on the radio station that perhaps will differentiate ourselves from some of the other competitors in this marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12329 MS HEALY: I have one further point about where our audience will be coming from. We can't forget that Calgary is a growing market. We have people migrating to this city all the time that will look for a home in terms of their radio station, and we hope that if we get STAR FM, that will be their home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12330 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How does that kids' show fit into this whole picture?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12331 MS HEALY: I am very glad you asked about the kids' show, because we truly are really excited. It simply is a unique opportunity for us to play music that remains within our soft rock genre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12332 I think we have a number of points to make about the kids' programming, in terms of that show and its music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12333 We talk about the artists. We can bring in Canadian artists that we can highlight in that show, and there are lots of them. I can think of Connie Kaldor, for example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12334 There is a great song, and I can't wait to hear it. I say that it's a great song. We all remember "Puff the Magic Dragon". There is a new mix of that for kids that is coming out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12335 These are the kinds of things that we can highlight in that show, staying within our soft rock format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12336 We are targeting an age demo, in terms of the kids, of about 12 years of age and younger. Kids listen to what their parents listen to in the vehicle. I think we listen to what our parents are listening to in that young age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12337 As we start to get older, of course, we start to have other influences. We recognize that the 14, the 15 and the 16‑year‑olds are probably not going to be our target in terms of this group of listeners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12338 With our spoken word content we will be targeting the 12‑and‑under group, with the opportunity to have kids on the radio. I know that we will speak to spoken word further, but definitely in terms of music, I don't think we have to stray too far from our soft rock format. We have no desire to be a CHR station for two hours in our programming. We want to stay true to our soft rock format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12339 MR. TRIPATHY: I am going to step back for a second. If we put this into perspective and think about it a bit, this program gives us an opportunity to move into a lot of different areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12340 I am not going to kid you, we weren't all onside initially when we brought up the idea, but as we got thinking about it and got more and more excited about it, and thought about the soft rock component that we have spoken about, we got into spoken word and some of the other initiatives that we can take out of this and kind of move into a lot of different areas, one of which could be book clubs in this city. There are book clubs and reading programs that are currently set up with people such as the Calgary Hip and the Calgary Flames, which would be a natural tie‑in with a program like this, if we were able to secure those alliances.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12341 It moves all the way through to kids' jokes, pets ‑‑ we all have kids who are in school, who are looking for ways to try and get through school, in some cases. They are looking for ways, basically, to enjoy their lives, and this program is something that, again, will not only relate to the kids, but also to the parents, if properly programmed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12342 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Just to clarify, it is 35‑plus female that is your core audience, isn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12343 MS HEALY: Yes, that's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12344 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So it's probably their kids you are targeting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12345 MS HEALY: You are exactly bang on, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12346 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: On pages 4 and 5 of your supplementary brief you list your artists, and a number of them would be considered what we call Category 3, special interest music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12347 What percentage of Category 3 music selection do you think you will be including in your weekly music playlists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12348 MS HEALY: Quite frankly, I didn't figure out that percentage. I can't answer that question truthfully.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12349 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Counsel will correct me if I am wrong. As a commercial FM station, you cannot go over 30 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12350 MS HEALY: We would certainly commit to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12351 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So you would go below that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12352 MS HEALY: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12353 MR. MEANEY: Madam Chairman, it would be far below that number.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12354 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could also say, as broadcasters in this city we have an opportunity, and have had opportunities, over the last 20 years in some cases, a bit less in some others, to work with a number of broadcasters in this city, and we are very respectful of the current broadcast environment, including operators such as Newcap, which have a specialty licence here that fits into Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12355 We certainly wouldn't want to tread on their territory, so to speak.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12356 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Mr. Meaney, I love how you keep promoting me to chairperson.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12357 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I was a bit worried about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12358 MR. MEANEY: I know that you are new, but I have heard good things about you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12359 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: But I'm not the chairperson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12360 Let's move into the local and spoken word programming now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12361 In your November 14, 2005 letter, which was in response to deficiency questions, you indicated that you would devote 17 hours to spoken word programming, 7 hours to news and 88 hours to music programming, for a total of 112 hours of programming per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12362 I notice that in your package today ‑‑ and this is the one with the grid, with the timetable ‑‑ you give a more detailed breakdown of your programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12363 I haven't had time to add the numbers up and things like that, but in your deficiency letter your programming added up to 112 hours. The broadcast week being 126 hours, that left 14 hours unaccounted for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12364 I am wondering how you are going to fill the 14 hours, or is the answer in what you have submitted this morning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12365 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12366 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you. I like Chairperson better, but that's okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12367 MR. MEANEY: That difference would be made up of commercials and music. So the music could be higher than 88 percent, based on the commercial load on the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12368 That would be the difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12369 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: On your breakdown of the feature and spoken word programming, what you have provided this morning, will that still add up to 112, now supplemented with Mr. Meaney's answer, or is the 14 hours listed in what you provided this morning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12370 MR. MEANEY: The broadcast week is 126 hours. If we have 17 hours of spoken word, then the balance would be made up of commercials and music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12371 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Excluding the 7 hours of news programming, you are proposing 17 hours of other types, like the kids' show, "The Morning Interview", "Entertainment This Evening".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12372 Could you please provide more detail regarding the nature of those programs and the programming resources dedicated to each?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12373 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, to clarify, the 17 hours of spoken word is inclusive of news, sports and surveillance programming. So it would be the additional 10 hours over and above that, which Laurie will speak to now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12374 MS HEALY: We have a number of initiatives to fulfil our spoken word programming. As we have clearly discussed, our 7‑plus hours in terms of news. In addition to that, we have a news interview segment, called "The Morning Interview", which we will be bringing to our programming. This is specifically targeted to Calgarians locally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12375 One of the examples we give in the documents is that perhaps we will have a pediatrician on who has the latest advances in autism, some of the latest news, and that kind of thing ‑‑ things that specifically target our audience of 35‑plus, with a female skew.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12376 "Entertainment This Evening" will be another great example of where we will be able to incorporate our additional spoken word content outside of our, of course, unscheduled jock talk that we will have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12377 Again, our focus will be local, because that is what we are all about, local events and what is happening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12378 It is what we consider our opportunity to go beyond simply what was happening on TV last night.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12379 We will have "Community Calgary", and we are very excited that we have been able to hook up with the Federation of Calgary Communities ‑‑ 137 organizations here in Calgary. It is an umbrella organization, if you will, that will allow us to keep Calgarians informed with our community calendar and also via our website as to what is happening here in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12380 Our aboriginal programming, which we are very excited about as well, will obviously be a music show, again fitting in with our soft rock format, but with an aboriginal flavour, because that is what the music will be. We also intend to incorporate a spoken word element into that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12381 Some other spoken word content that we will have will be in the kids' programming, the two‑hour show. We expect, again, a music‑intensive show with great spoken word that will enhance the two hours, again bringing it back locally to what is happening for kids here in our community, as well as, of course, the trends and what is going on around the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12382 Other spoken word programming that we have allotted for ‑‑ we have "Stars Alive on FM". This would be a monthly show, so its spoken word content in terms of a weekly basis really becomes limited. However, again, we anticipate having perhaps four Calgary artists on "Stars Alive on FM". Not only will we have their music, but you need to get to know those people. So that becomes part of our spoken word ‑‑ and biographies, and chatting with them, and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12383 "Your World" is a global half‑hour program that we are anticipating will have a good, probably, five or so minutes of spoken word content, in addition to our unscheduled jock talk throughout our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12384 We are developing ideas, such as our 60‑second restaurant review, which John Gilchrist, a local author and food critic here, is eager to participate in with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12385 All of our spoken word programming ‑‑ I could go through it all, but all of it is designed to enhance what is going on in our listeners' lives. It is designed to target our 35‑plus audience, and hopefully make their lives a bit easier, a bit more fun and entertaining.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12386 With our unscheduled jock talk, that will end up being approximately 17 hours of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12387 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What about the programming resources that you are going to dedicate?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12388 Who is going to run them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12389 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you for that question, Madam Commissioner. We have taken that into account, and it is a terrific question. In order to get spoken word, you need people to execute it and get it looked after. To that end, we have made some decisions with regards to our programming, in particular the news area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12390 Rick Meaney, as general manager of the operation, has put together those numbers with regards to staffing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12391 MR. MEANEY: First, if I could address the news, we would have two full‑time news people and two part‑time news people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12392 As mentioned by ourselves and other applicants, there is no news on FM in Calgary after 8:30 or 9:00. Typically, in those news departments, there might be one person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12393 So the news department will handle some of the spoken word that is more in tune with the news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12394 Also, I will turn it over to Laurie, because her programming staff will be looking after a lot of this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12395 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Perhaps this might make it easier for me. I am looking at what you provided this morning on programming, where you list your spoken word programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12396 I don't know whether it is doable to run down the list and say what is the programming resource for, let's say, "Entertainment This Evening" ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12397 MS HEALY: Sure, we can do that, recognizing that it's fluid and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12398 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes, of course.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12399 MS HEALY: Our goal, when we have staff, is always to marry people with the right skills to the right ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12400 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Of course. We could say that a news person is running ‑‑ we will just say news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12401 MS HEALY: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12402 Of course, news we have already touched on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12403 "The Morning Interview" is another program that would come from the news department.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12404 "Entertainment This Evening" would come from our on‑air staff, in terms of our jocks, if you will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12405 "Community Calgary", actually, will be in combination with our producer and a local representative from the Federation of Calgary Communities, who will put the piece together for us, and then will call it in via the telephone. That is our vision for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12406 Aboriginal programming ‑‑ obviously, Paul and Tom will be a big part of how the aboriginal programming comes together, along with our music director, of course, and myself, as program director. This will be a vital show for us, so we will take good care of that one for sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12407 "Kids' Radio" ‑‑ one of the things that I strongly believe as a program director is that we have to develop our new DJs, our new talent in the industry. With "Kids' Radio", it only makes sense to have a young broadcaster, and it will be an opportunity for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12408 This will be a big project. It is not simple, something you can throw off to the side. We want someone who will be dedicated, and younger people in radio tend to be pretty exciting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12409 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: And you can charge him child care rates.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12410 MS HEALY: I will check on that. I will see what I can do to make it a requirement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12411 Beyond that, "Stars Alive on FM", again, will be something that works very strongly. That will be very much in my ballpark, along with our music director.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12412 We have "Your World", which is something that I see working between the news department and our on‑air staff. I think that needs to be something that kind of goes hand‑in‑hand together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12413 The 60‑second restaurant review ‑‑ again, John Gilchrist has expressed a desire to be part of that, along with the producer, again, and on‑air staff. They will be able to make that happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12414 "Nuts and Bolts" ‑‑ again, this will be our on‑air staff. "Nuts and Bolts" we haven't discussed, but this is another little feature that is designed to make lives a bit easier. It is something that would definitely be with our on‑air staff, and the jock that would be appropriate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12415 "Talk the Walk" is something that, again, would involve our producer, as well as our on‑air staff, and hopefully experts in the field, because they know best.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12416 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12417 These programs will total 17 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12418 MS HEALY: Along with unscheduled jock talk, yes, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12419 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What portion of the 17 hours do you think will be made up of banter ‑‑ disc jockey banter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12420 MS HEALY: We have calculated that we suspect about 5 percent ‑‑ up to about 5 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12421 That's a fluid number always, but that is pretty standard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12422 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: In your reply to a deficiency question, you also stated that news and related surveilling spoken word, such as weather, sports and traffic, would total 7 hours per week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12423 Could you please provide details on the duration of the newscasts, if they haven't been provided already, and what, if any, other information, besides related surveillance, would be included in the newscasts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12424 MS HEALY: You will note in the document we gave you today that we outline the news package, the total length of the news package, in the pretty little blue‑and‑white graph that I have for you there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12425 For example, our 6:00, 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. hours ‑‑ morning drive ‑‑ will be five minutes in length. That includes news, sports, weather and traffic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12426 I could certainly break down the specific times on those, if you would like me to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12427 News in the morning will be three minutes in length. Our sports will be one minute in length. Our traffic will be 30 seconds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12428 We will intersperse traffic, of course, with our jock talk, because it is an important part of our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12429 Weather, as well, in the news package, will be 30 seconds. But, again, you will be hearing it throughout the hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12430 We will also have half‑hour news in our morning drive show, which will be on the half‑hour. Our newscasts will be one and a half minutes long. Our sports, again, will be one minute. Our traffic and weather, each, 30 seconds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12431 Our newscasts become a bit shorter throughout the day, as news becomes less at the top of people's minds during their workday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12432 We will pick up at noon, again with a slightly longer newscast, at three minutes for news, 30 seconds for sports, 15 seconds for traffic, and one minute for weather.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12433 Then, at four o'clock we will pick back up again with three minutes specifically for news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12434 Keep in mind that in this market right now there are full newscasts ‑‑ morning newscasts ‑‑ through until 8:30. There are at least two stations that are doing a brief nine o'clock update in the market, and then you don't hear any news in Calgary, outside of breaking news stories and that kind of thing. You won't hear any scheduled news again until four o'clock, when there will be brief updates.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12435 We are proposing to not only do the news, but to do the sports, to do the weather and the traffic right through until six o'clock every weekday, and on weekends from 6:00 a.m. until noon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12436 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What would be the size of your newsroom staff, and what kind of resources would you dedicate to news gathering and production and on‑air broadcasting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12437 MS HEALY: I think that Rick could speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12438 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, there will be two full‑time news staff and two part‑time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12439 Could I ask you to repeat your question again in regards to the news staff?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12440 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What would be your anticipated size of the newsroom staff and the types of resources you would allocate to news gathering, production and on‑air broadcasting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12441 MR. MEANEY: In terms of resources, we will have Broadcast News, of course, the news that comes over the wire.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12442 Laurie, you might add to that, in terms of resources.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12443 MS HEALY: Certainly, when we talk about our news staff, one of our news people ‑‑ our news director, more than likely, will also be our morning news person, and then our other staff will ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12444 We kind of look at it as a team. Our other staff will appropriately work the afternoon news, the morning news, and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12445 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could clarify, in case we haven't made the answer perfectly clear, there would be two full‑time and two part‑time individuals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12446 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Who is responsible for the news content?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12447 MS HEALY: That would be our news director. Of course, the program director would receive the entire thing as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12448 MR. MEANEY: And don't forget the general manager. He gets in there too.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12449 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are beginning to sound more like the Commission all the time.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12450 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I have learned, and I have been told that the spoken word programming is very expensive to produce. Based on looking at your projected programming expenses in section 4.1 of your application, over the seven‑year period ‑‑ and I have also calculated it. I think your total programming cost is about 30 percent of your total operating costs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12451 I am just wondering why you feel that your projected expenses will be sufficient to cover your spoken word programming, particularly because there are applicants who have proposed a less ambitious spoken word programming package and are dedicating more to programming expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12452 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you for the question, Madam Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12453 In taking a look at the expenses and the budgeting for the radio station, we tried to be as responsible as we could in putting those numbers together, and we tried to put some thought into it, and we tried to analyze not only where we are at today, but also the costs going forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12454 Calgary is a dynamic market. It is a city that is currently growing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12455 Rick Meaney could probably best address the exact percentages and why they are set up that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12456 MR. MEANEY: It is true that some spoken word could be expensive. Most of the spoken word that we are doing will be done by our staff in‑house.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12457 I am surprised that Laurie hasn't brought this up, but the on‑air people are typically on the air for four hours, and they have time to put together some of the spoken word programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12458 As well, our news department also has time during the day to put it together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12459 When I did the budget, I made sure that we had the proper staff members in every position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12460 From my perspective, I don't think we are low on the numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12461 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I looked at your financials, and they show that you are projecting losses from Year 1 through Year 3, which we see a lot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12462 I have also calculated that your average annual percentage growth in revenue over the seven‑year term would be about 19.4 percent, which seems a little high to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12463 I am wondering how your projected revenues are tied to your programming expenses. What if you could not meet your revenue targets?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12464 Would you be able to finance the programming expenses?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12465 MR. MEANEY: First of all, the revenue numbers we feel ‑‑ and I have heard this term used ‑‑ are responsible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12466 We fully expect to reach those numbers, and I would hope a bit more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12467 I don't see any reason why we can't do the spoken word. I really don't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12468 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I know that you have a line of credit lined up for the first three years, so if you don't meet the targets in the first three years, I suspect that your line of credit will kick in. Beyond that, what would your commitments be if your revenues over the projected seven years did not meet the targets you have set?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12469 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, you are right, we do have a $2 million line of credit set up, and taking into account the losses in the first two years, we still wouldn't use up that entire line of credit. There would still be a fair bit of it left.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12470 So we would draw on that, if need be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12471 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Rick's comments, one of the strengths of this application ‑‑ and I am sure the Commission has recognized it ‑‑ is that we are a local group that is from Calgary, with extensive sales experience in this marketplace already.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12472 One of the benefits and strengths of this application is that we not only have the skill set and the understanding of the Calgary market already, but a set of business relationships that have been built on for years and years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12473 We anticipate being able to get out of the gate a lot quicker than some of the other potential applicants, if they were to come into the market, simply because we have a better feel of the market and where we need to go moving forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12474 With regard to the situation for the company as far as dollars available and such, overall financing is sitting at $3.5 million. Worst case scenario according to our budgets ‑‑ and, again, we have tried to be responsible with them ‑‑ shows us at $2.4 million, or thereabouts, allowing for a $1.1 million cushion on financing for us to move forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12475 The initiatives that we are proposing are very doable, and I can assure you, knowing Mr. Meaney, that they are going to have to happen. It's not an option.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12476 MR. MEANEY: Yes, they will be out there selling. I can guarantee that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12477 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: On your spoken word, I looked at your Bannister Research results ‑‑ and I am sure I am missing something. It doesn't seem to measure the market's needs in terms of spoken word and what that target audience should be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12478 I am wondering, what do you perceive to be the spoken word and information programming expectations of your target audience, and why do you feel that your proposal for spoken word programming would meet those expectations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12479 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could start the response to that question, I would appreciate it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12480 With regard to the research that was done, it was initially conducted based on a sense of feel, after speaking with people in this marketplace about possible needs in the market as far as format is concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12481 In looking at the Bannister Research, what you will note, after the music formats were chosen, is that there are a couple of more information‑intensive radio stations that are showing up at the top of that list, which potentially could share audience with ourselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12482 In taking a look at that, we then went a step further, and that got back to psychographics. In looking at the research, we said, "If the individuals there are interested in information and what is going on in Calgary, perhaps we should take a little closer look at our spoken word content," and that is when we initiated some of those initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12483 MS HEALY: Speaking in terms of the programming, when I think of the 35‑plus audience, what we start to see is a greater desire to have information, but it can't just be any information. It has to be information that fits with their lifestyle. It has to be information that is relevant to what is going on in their lives. It has to be compelling. It has to be interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12484 That is what our goal in all of our programming initiatives is, to have spoken word that fits seamlessly into our music‑intensive radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12485 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Do you have any empirical data, in terms of the research, that the existing radio stations are not meeting the spoken word needs of Calgary listeners?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12486 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, when our research was done, it was a format finder, to find the best format for Calgary. Spoken word was not a component of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12487 However, if you look at what is going on in radio in the market, other than the morning show, there is very little spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12488 With the demographic that we have targeted, we felt, first of all, that they wanted more news, and that we could add a spoken word component to fit in with our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12489 So it is based on our experience, not research.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12490 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12491 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a ten‑minute break. We will return at quarter to ten.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 9:35 a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 9:50 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12492 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before returning to the continuation of the review of your application, I want to say that we took a small break to discuss among ourselves and to review some of the questions that we have regarding your filing of the material that you provided this morning. That is why we took a break.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12493 Also, I know that the Secretary would like to add something regarding the filing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12494 MS BOULET: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12495 To be precise, with respect to the extra documents that were filed on the record this morning, I would like to describe what they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12496 There is a document entitled "STAR FM Feature and Spoken Word Programming". It is a five‑page document.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12497 There is also a description of the Canadian Talent Development commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12498 There is a document called "Financial Operations", which is an updated document to be included in the application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12499 Finally, there is a Unanimous Shareholder Agreement, which was signed on February 21, 2006.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12500 These documents were filed this morning and they will be placed on the public record for this Applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12501 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12502 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12503 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I will move on to the Canadian Talent Development contributions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12504 There have been a couple of changes to the numbers, so I wanted to confirm for the record what the commitments are, as they stand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12505 Could you confirm that the commitments are as you have stated in your December 9th response to the deficiency questions, where you increased it from $756,000 to $2.1 million over the seven years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12506 There will be $108,000 each year, from Year 1 through Year 3, $368,000 in Year 4, $440,000 in Year 5, $473,000 in Year 6, and $495,000 in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12507 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12508 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, we are reviewing our CTD commitments, and we would like to walk through the totals on a year‑by‑year basis, to ensure that we are in fact on the same page.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12509 We are indicating a Year 1 total of $108,000, a Year 2 total of $108,000, a Year 3 total of $108,000, our Year 4 commitment is looking at $368,000, Year 5, $420,000, Year 6, $453,000, and Year 7, $475,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12510 As would be expected, we would honour those as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12511 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: The numbers that you just gave me, they would be in the package that you gave us entitled "Western Canadian Professional Talent Development Fund"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12512 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, that would be one of the components. That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12513 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So whatever you gave us this morning supersedes what you have provided before.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12514 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct. We apologize for the confusion. We had an increase in our CTD at the last moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12515 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: That's okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12516 In your earliest submission you gave a breakdown of where you are going to allocate the CTD commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12517 I am going to read them from the documents you provided this morning. If you could confirm for me whether they are, in fact, correct, I would appreciate it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12518 To the Western Canadian Professional Talent Fund, $734,000. To the area, $200,000. Festivals is $530,000. Then the Calgary Folk Festival is $10,000. The Calgary International Children's Festival is $10,000. Aboriginal festivals, $5,000. The Aboriginal Scholarship Program is $56,000, and aboriginal radio is $10,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12519 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12520 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the only total that we may have to clarify is aboriginal radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12521 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I may, those individual festivals that you mentioned are inclusive in the overall festivals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12522 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: You anticipated my question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12523 So the Calgary Folk Festival of $10,000, the Calgary International Children's Festival of $10,000, and aboriginal festivals of $5,000 are to be included in your total of $530,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12524 MR. MEANEY: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12525 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Other than for that clarification, those numbers are correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12526 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, I would like to very quickly review the aboriginal radio commitment, to ensure that we are on the same page.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12527 Our overall commitment for CTD is $70,000 for aboriginal radio, and that works out to $10,000 per year over a seven‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12528 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I think you have lost me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12529 MR. TRIPATHY: It wouldn't be the first time I have done that to somebody.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12530 THE CHAIRPERSON: With respect to aboriginal radio, I notice that the money will be given to AMMSA, which is the Aboriginal Multi‑Media Society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12531 Am I right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12532 MR. TRIPATHY: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12533 THE CHAIRPERSON: AMMSA doesn't operate radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12534 I can see from their letterhead that they have the news source ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12535 Oh, they have CFWE. I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12536 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, that was their initial radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12537 Maybe what I could do, as long as we have this opportunity, is hand this over to Mike Bagshaw. He could clarify what their role is in that particular initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12538 MR. M. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12539 AMMSA broadcasts to 48 communities and settlements via satellite from that central station. So those funds would be used to help develop talent in discussions with the president and CEO, Bert Crowfoot, at AMMSA. They are in the process of developing a college to help aboriginals learn radio, journalism and television. So those funds would go toward that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12540 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they are not related to ADR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12541 MR. MEANEY: No, they are not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12543 Madam Del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12544 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: That's why he's the Chair.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12545 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: In terms of the breakdown of your CTD commitment, I should really go to the sheet where you have listed Years 1 through 7, and then the total ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12546 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12547 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: ‑‑ rather than the prose, the description of the funds, because those do not total your commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12548 MR. TRIPATHY: No, those are just some of the highlights within each of the initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12549 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I am sure this is a typo. I think, in this morning's presentation, in terms of festivals, you mentioned the number 560,000, but the correct number is 530,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12550 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12551 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So you would be prepared to accept as a condition of licence to spend the incremental annual CTD budget at the levels you have indicated in the documents you filed this morning ‑‑ in the documents that list the seven‑year commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12552 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct. If there were any initiatives that were deemed to be not necessarily within the CTD guidelines, we would certainly stay with that $2.1 million commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12553 Again, on the CTD program, it is important with our group to emphasize that we have tried, wherever possible, to make sure those initiatives were directed back into Alberta, or back into Calgary, where possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12554 The aboriginal initiative, as an example, is a station that is up in the northern part of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12555 To clarify what they do, the programming that comes out of there is a satellite broadcast throughout First Nations reserves throughout the province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12556 MR. BAGSHAW: Madam Commissioner, if I could add, I think it is important to note, as well, that we have had the opportunity to meet with each of these individuals and we do have commitments with the dollar amounts we have allocated to them, and, in most cases, we have a letter from them indicating that they are looking forward to working with us, if we are granted the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12557 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12558 I have more questions, specifically on the CTD initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12559 First, with respect to the Western Canadian Professional Talent Development Fund, you state that this fund will be managed by the station and that it will be used to help a western Canadian artist with the production and distribution of a CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12560 Could you please give us a budget breakdown for the recording and manufacturing of the CD; and, secondly, will a third party facility be used to realize the recording?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12561 MR. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12562 Yes, that would be managed by STAR FM, as well as the Beach Recording Studio. We have formed a partnership with them on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12563 If I could give you the breakdown for the CD production costs ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12564 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: If I could back you up, whose studio will you be using?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12565 MR. BAGSHAW: Beach Recording Studio. They are a recording studio located here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12566 There will be $2,500 for musician fees; $25,000 for studio, engineering, mixing and mastering; $25,000 for producer fees; $5,000 for CD replication, artwork and production; and $15,000 for promotion and marketing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12567 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How will you choose the successful recipient?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12568 MR. BAGSHAW: There are a couple of different ways that we will go about doing that. One of the advantages, and things we are excited about, with respect to working with Beach, is that Lanny Williamson has a distinguished resumé. He has been in the recording industry since 1960. With the number of up‑and‑coming talent from Calgary that comes into his studio, he will present individuals to us that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12569 We will also have a link on our website for individuals to apply for those funds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12570 As a committee, we will meet with Lanny, as well as Rick Meaney, the general manager, and Laurie, the program director. They will narrow it down to five individuals. At that point they will interview those individuals, have them come into the studio, and make a determination from that point as to who that individual would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12571 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How will you promote the talent fund to the community?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12572 MR. BAGSHAW: That's a great question. Again, through the website of the radio station, and we will also support it with some on‑air, through PSAs and other promotional components of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12573 Again, with Lanny's extensive network in the industry here in Calgary, he will certainly be able to help extend that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12574 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Mike's answer for a moment, we also have spent time over the last seven or eight months while we were putting this application together to stay in contact with local Calgarian artists, and we have been able to set up a network of sorts that will allow us to gain as much exposure as possible for this program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12575 We want to make sure that it is as inclusive as possible, as opposed to exclusive, to potential artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12576 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: You indicated that a large number of CDs will be made for distribution. How many CDs do you anticipate making? What kind of distribution are we talking about?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12577 MR. BAGSHAW: We would anticipate the production of about 15,000 CDs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12578 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How would you distribute them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12579 MR. BAGSHAW: Maybe I will have Vince respond to that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12580 MR. TRIPATHY: Sure. As far as distribution is concerned, again, it is one of the benefits of this group that you see in front of you. We are locally based, we have relationships within the city, and there are opportunities for distribution on a retail basis, not necessarily even in the most traditional manners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12581 To cite a national example, you can see the CDs that are occurring, as an example, in the Starbucks outlets, and so on, down the line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12582 We would find a local retailer that we could work with in partnership to create that exposure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12583 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: With respect to providing support to marquis Calgary‑based events and festivals, you have listed the Calgary Folk Festival, the Calgary International Children's Festival, and aboriginal festivals. Are they examples, or are these the ones that you will be contributing to?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12584 MR. BAGSHAW: Those three, we have committed those dollars to them, and then we would look for additional festivals that we deem we could put additional funds into.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12585 But we have committed those dollars to those festivals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12586 MR. TRIPATHY: The additional festivals that we might look at could be of a multicultural nature. On some level we understand the initiatives that the CRTC is trying to put forward, and do believe in them, and if we are able to, we will certainly direct funds that are reflective of the community here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12587 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Could you elaborate on aboriginal festivals? Could you give some examples?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12588 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, Madam Commissioner, I will turn that over to Paul Kuster, our aboriginal liaison person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12589 MR. KUSTER: First of all, I am a native, and my last name is Kuster, so don't hold that against me.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12590 MR. KUSTER: It's a bad name for a native guy to have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12591 The City of Calgary hosts a Calgary Aboriginal Awareness Week every year. It used to be held in May; now it is held in June. It is an annual festival. It is a week long, and it coincides with June 21st, which is National Aboriginal Day across the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12592 When I first talked to Mike about this, I was trying to think of what kind of festival would fit this kind of funding, and I thought this one would work best because it is a city‑wide celebration. There are events going on that entire week at different venues across the city, and it is inclusive. It includes everyone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12593 Of course, the feature is aboriginal culture, which includes arts, music ‑‑ all that kind of thing. So I thought perhaps one of the best festivals would be that one to support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12594 There are smaller festivals, including powwows, which happen during the summer at the reserves in and around the Calgary area, but this one is a city‑based festival and it includes all of the aboriginal people from this area, as well as mainstream cultures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12595 That is the festival that we have talked about to this point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12596 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: That leads to my next question. What specific directions would you give to the various organizations receiving the funding on how the CTD money should be spent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12597 For example, with respect to the festival, how would you ask them to spend the money?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12598 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, that was a question that we had to address in one of our deficiency letters, and we tried to put in a couple of different mechanisms, and I could let Mike speak to that directly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12599 MR. M. BAGSHAW: There are a couple of directives that we put in place. One of them is that we would have the participants submit an application as to what the initiatives of the festival are. There would be a detailed list of where the funding would go.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12600 We would also ask, upon completion of the festival, for a report as to where the funding went, as well as an indication as to how the festival itself went.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12601 There would also be a 20 percent holdback that we would have on those funds, until we received that documentation, and we would release those funds upon receipt of those documents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12602 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I might add to that, the intention of this festival fund is to support Canadian musical talent. That is the idea of the fund.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12603 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12604 Moving to your aboriginal scholarship program, I noted your response in your November 14th letter to the deficiencies, and I see that you address the question of: If this were not an eligible CTD, what you would do with it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12605 However, I am wondering what would be your position right now. Has it changed from the letter as to whether the scholarship that you are talking about still qualifies or is eligible for CTD funding?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12606 MR. BAGSHAW: Madam Commissioner, is the question that, if it isn't eligible, would we reallocate those funds?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12607 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Scholarships, usually, would only qualify when they are used for studies in music, journalism and artistic studies. The Commission has not yet recognized broadcasting courses as being eligible, as it is not considered an artistic study.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12608 I am wondering if you agree with that interpretation, and how do you feel about your scholarship initiative, whether it qualifies as an eligible CTD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12609 MR. BAGSHAW: I will let Vince respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12610 My one comment on that would be that, if the Commission deemed that it wasn't eligible, we could certainly move it into the journalism course at Mount Royal, where we would certainly be comfortable moving those funds to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12611 MR. TRIPATHY: I think, at the end of the day, it is important to point out that the initiative itself is something that is very worthwhile and could be very, very beneficial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12612 But, as Mike said, if for whatever reason it is deemed to be a little offside as far as the policies are concerned, we certainly don't have a problem in reallocating those funds to another initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12613 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I also noted, in section 8.3 of your application, that the aboriginal scholarship program is also listed as an example of a measure to promote employment equity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12614 Just to clarify, if the $56,000 was not CTD eligible, then would you redirect this funding, thereby maintaining your overall CTD budget at $2.1 million, or would you reduce the CTD commitment by the amount of $56,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12615 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, the $2.1 million figure for CTD is something that we want to honour and commit to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12616 Again, if there are initiatives that are deemed to be not compliant, we have no problem reallocating them, but the number is $2.1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12617 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Okay. Then, would you still contribute to the aboriginal scholarship program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12618 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the initiative is a very worthwhile program. If, for whatever reason, it was deemed to be not a part of CTD, given the importance and some of the initiatives that we have within our application, we would be prepared to honour that scholarship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12619 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Would you still be prepared to honour that commitment to the tune of $56,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12620 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes. That would be over and above the $2.1 million, if it was deemed to be that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12621 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12622 With respect to your contribution to an aboriginal station in Alberta, I also acknowledge your response in your November 14th letter. Have you found a station that would benefit from this contribution, and, if so, what station is it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12623 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, we have found a radio station to direct that initiative toward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12624 I will allow Michael Bagshaw to explain that a bit further.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12625 MR. M. BAGSHAW: Yes. That was the association, AMMSA, which was mentioned earlier, and Bert Crowfoot. CFWE is broadcast out of Edmonton. It broadcasts across 48 communities and settlements ‑‑ the various reserves throughout Alberta. That is where those funds would be allocated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12626 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Will you sponsor a different station each year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12627 MR. M. BAGSHAW: No, those funds would go to that station to help develop talent within that organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12628 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could clarify the operation, as we understand it, essentially, you have one initial radio station that is creating the product, so to speak, and then it is beamed via satellite throughout Alberta, into different First Nations areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12629 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: What control mechanisms would you implement to ensure that the funds allocated to aboriginal radio would be used as directed; that is, for music recordings, CD manufacturing and talent promotion, and not for administrative or technical purposes?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12630 MR. MEANEY: In the letter from Bert Crowfoot that we submitted today, indicating that he would be willing to work with us, we would come up with a series of guidelines and initiatives as to how those funds would be spent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12631 So we would apply the same principles that we mentioned earlier with respect to submitting a proposal and looking for progress reports as we move forward on those programs, as well as a 20 percent holdback, which would be paid upon completion of those requirements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12632 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: For your co‑ordinator part‑time, which came up today, there would be $100,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12633 Can you identify the proposed CTD initiatives that this co‑ordinator would be responsible for, which would warrant you creating such a position?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12634 MR. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Madam Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12635 That CTD co‑ordinator position would essentially be a liaison between ourselves and the organizations that we build a partnership with for our CTD commitments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12636 We also envision that role as being a liaison with the artists themselves.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12637 For example, if the artists have a CD release or whatnot, we could be involved in organizing interviews and helping out in any way that we could from a station standpoint.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12638 He or she would report back to us and make sure that we are doing all we can to support the artists, as well as the organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12639 MR. TRIPATHY: I would like to add two particular points to Mike's comments on that position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12640 The position we are looking at is, first of all, a part‑time position. It is designed to be specifically CTD‑related.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12641 Secondly, the position we are looking at is to come in Year 4.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12642 As the Commission reviews our CTD commitments, you will note that there is a significant increase in Years 4, 5, 6 and 7 which takes place; thus, the reasoning for the position being implemented at that period in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12643 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, you asked about what initiatives they would be working with. The Western Canadian Talent Development Fund increases significantly in Year 4, so they would be spending time there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12644 Also, the festivals increase significantly in Year 4, and we see them spending a lot of time there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12645 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: This particular co‑ordinator would have no other duties in your station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12646 MR. BAGSHAW: That's right, it would be specifically for CTD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12647 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: In the event that this expenditure is not CTD eligible, would you still maintain your commitment at $2.1 million?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12648 MR. BAGSHAW: Yes, we would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12649 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Let's move on to the financials, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12650 The purpose of these questions is to determine how you arrived at your audience shares, and why the projected shares would be achievable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12651 On page 11 of your November 14th letter, which was in response to deficiency questions, you included a table of audience projections. Then, on page 12 of your supplementary brief you stated that these projections may be a little conservative, but it was your preference to be cautious rather than overconfident.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12652 Your projections seem a little bit lower, compared with audience shares recorded by existing stations in Calgary that rely on the 35‑plus demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12653 If you were more optimistic, what might you realistically hope to achieve in terms of the audience share of 12‑plus?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12654 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, you are right. We did take a very, very responsible approach in putting together our budgets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12655 I can assure you again that one of the benefits of our organization is that we do have experience here in Calgary. We are aware of some of the potential competitors that we may be up against, and, in putting our numbers together, we took those into account.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12656 The realities of the marketplace here in Calgary are such that up to August 2005 the market was $76 million; to December 2005 the market has been growing at roughly 11.2 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12657 To translate it in a share‑point‑to‑revenue position, you are looking at roughly $760,000 to $800,000 per share point, and our projection is a five share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12658 If you were to go numbers to numbers, that would translate to $3.8 million worth of revenue in Year 1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12659 The projection you have there is, obviously, significantly less, and that has been done for a couple of reasons. One, as a standalone station, in Year 1 in particular, there will be no access to national revenue dollars, which will play a part in what is going on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12660 Secondly, as a standalone in this marketplace, we wanted to ensure, again, responsibility in the numbers that were presented to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12661 What I can suggest is that those numbers, as they sit right now, will definitely work. If those numbers are higher, it only puts our organization and this radio station in a better financial position, allowing for viability for the long term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12662 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How did you translate your market study? How did you use that to arrive at your audience projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12663 MR. TRIPATHY: Basically what we did in taking a look at it was, we tried to blend a couple of different thought processes, I guess.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12664 Yesterday we heard "bottom‑up" and "top‑down". The way we tried to take a look at the situation was: get a sense of where the market was going to be at, and then take a look at what was happening in the marketplace, as far as other radio stations, and where they were as far as the numbers of listeners, hours tuned, and so on down the line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12665 In taking a look at that and where we are at as far as our results on our research, we arrived, roughly, at a number of about 5 to 6 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12666 Then, we wanted to ensure that we were on track, again being responsible, so we spent some time with a group of consultants out of Toronto that we have been working with, a gentleman by the name of David Bray of Hennessey & Bray Communications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12667 Mr. Bray is a consultant in the broadcasting industry and has been in this business for quite a long time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12668 We handed our situation over to David. He took a look at the research, took a look at the overall market, took a look at the revenue situation, and, based on his determination and his experience, we arrived at that 5 percent figure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12669 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I did note the Hennessey & Bray study that you attached as one of the appendices to your supplementary brief, and I had some trouble interpreting the numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12670 Do you have that study?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12671 MR. TRIPATHY: I apologize, Madam Commissioner, I wasn't able to hear the study.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12672 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Hennessey & Bray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12673 MR. TRIPATHY: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12674 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I think it was behind your market study.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12675 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, was there a specific concern?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12676 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I was wondering whether you could walk me through one or two lines, so that I could follow it better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12677 MR. TRIPATHY: To clarify, the information I am looking at is the projected weekly tuning. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12678 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes, the radio buys.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12679 MR. TRIPATHY: I apologize. To clarify again, are we referring to the radio buys by demographic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12680 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12681 Let me find my copy first.
‑‑‑ Pause / Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12682 It doesn't have a page number, but it starts with "Calgary percentage share of all radio buys, 2004".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12683 MR. TRIPATHY: Okay, we are on the same page. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12684 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: How should I read this? How should I interpret these numbers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12685 You say in the first line that 34.495 percent of radio buys are targeted toward the 25 to 54 age group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12686 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12687 The goal of this piece was to try to show the Commission an understanding of the marketplace, and where we believe certain target demos are at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12688 I think the reference yesterday from one of the applicants was a term referred to as "power ratio". The thinking behind it was that certain demos allow for translation into revenue at different levels. That is what this piece is designed to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12689 At the end of the day, what we wanted to do was show that we haven't pulled the numbers out of a hat, that we do have an understanding of where we are at in this market, and we do understand where we are at demographically, as far as where we are going to go moving forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12690 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: In section 5.5 of your application, you state that revenue projections were calculated based upon assuming 2 percent of the $75 million that you estimate the Calgary radio advertising market to be worth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12691 Why would you project just 2 percent of the advertising revenue in the market when you are also projecting to attract 5 percent of radio listeners?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12692 I know that I might be going over ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12693 MR. TRIPATHY: No, that's fine. It's a terrific opportunity to clarify these particular issues, so I appreciate that, Madam Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12694 Again, to give the thought rationale behind it, we do project a 5 percent share of the marketplace, first and foremost. You are absolutely correct, that translates into a figure of between $3.5 million to $3.8 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12695 Our overall revenues in Year 1 are based on a two share of 1.5, and the factors that are affecting that, again, are, first, national dollars not coming into play in this marketplace. National dollars translate into, roughly, 25 percent of revenue for the established radio stations here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12696 So those are dollars we wouldn't have access to until we are established and actually have numbers to show on an agency basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12697 That was one of the factors that came in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12698 The other factor ‑‑ and you can appreciate that it is not one that many stations have had to deal with in this market, because, quite frankly, most of the radio stations are owned by the major groups ‑‑ Corus, Rogers, as well as Standard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12699 We had to, in our minds, be responsible on the projection that we put forward and say: This is the business plan that will allow us to work. If there are dollars over and above that translate, because we have such strong relationships on the sales side and management side in this city, and we are able to leverage those things, that is all bonus. But for us to come in and project a high number, we thought, would have been irresponsible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12700 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: You are also projecting that 15 percent of your revenue will be diverted from existing radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12701 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12702 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: In your response to deficiency questions, in your letter of November 14th, you projected that 55 percent of your first year revenue would come from incremental spending by existing radio advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12703 I am wondering how you arrived at that estimate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12704 MR. TRIPATHY: To be perfectly honest, those numbers are not an exact science at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12705 Again, we took a look at our own experience and tried to get a sense of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12706 To suggest to you that that is something that has been studied to the nth percent would be incorrect. We are going off our market experience and our understanding of how Calgary radio works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12707 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: That's okay. I am probably reading too much into it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12708 At section 5.1 of your application, on average number of commercial minutes expected to be sold per hour, you estimate in Year 1 four minutes, at $57 per minute, and then up to Year 7 it will be six minutes, at $115 per minute.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12709 I wonder how you arrived at those numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12710 MR. TRIPATHY: The Calgary radio market is a bit of an unusual market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12711 To give you a sense of that, some of the top radio stations in this marketplace, in general terms, for 30‑second ads, are charging in the order of $150, or more, per 30‑second commercial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12712 We took a look at that and, I guess, in arriving at the number we did, said: This is something that we are going to have to try and work with. Again, how do we budget? How do we make it work? Where is the upside that goes with it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12713 At $28 per 30‑second ad, that is a number that is very, very reasonable relative to the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12714 One of the things that we have sensed in this marketplace, from our experience ‑‑ and we have been in the market for a number of years ‑‑ is that at some point the cost per commercial becomes a hindrance and puts up a roadblock, as far as an entry point is concerned, for some advertisers in this marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12715 Initially we have the opportunity with this format to allow advertisers who currently cannot afford to be on radio in this great city to come on the radio station, get a sense of what radio is about, and not only from our bottom line standpoint as a radio station. Once they get a sense of radio and what it can do overall, it will allow and afford opportunities, not just on our station, but to the other radio broadcasters in the city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12716 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I may add to that, these numbers, in terms of minutes sold and the amount per minute, are tied back to the budget, and then to the percentages of inventory that we would sell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12717 As the station becomes more successful, we would sell more inventory and the rates would go up, up to Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12718 That is the rationale. It is tied back to the budget, the percentage of inventory used.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12719 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I might have missed this, and you could have answered it, but how do those numbers compare to the market right now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12720 MR. MEANEY: How do they compare in terms of...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12721 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Whatever your numbers were on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12722 MR. MEANEY: In terms of other stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12723 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12724 MR. MEANEY: The rates are on the low end. The cost for a 30‑second ad, I believe, goes anywhere from $35 all the way up to $150, $175.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12725 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: That was what I needed. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12726 I am looking at your financial projections, and I think you are averaging about 19.4 percent ‑‑ average annual growth in revenues. Does that seem high to you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12727 I recognize that you are starting from a low number.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12728 The Conference Board is projecting retail growth at the rate of 5.1 percent between 2006 and 2010, and the actual radio ad revenues from 1994 to 2005 were 8.3 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12729 Do you have any comment on why yours, at 19.4 percent, is realistic and reasonable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12730 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, Madam Commissioner, there are a couple of points there. One, you are absolutely right, we are starting at a very responsible budget for Year 1 of 1.5. Translating that forward, that obviously allows for higher percentage growth moving ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12731 In addition to that ‑‑ and you have observed this already ‑‑ that 5 percent market share that we refer to in Year 1 is something that will be fully developed, fully taken care of. The potential will be fulfilled over the seven‑year duration. As a result of that, the numbers, all of a sudden, start to fall into place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12732 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: On those financial projections ‑‑ and, again, I am noting them year‑to‑year ‑‑ I see that they are declining, and that is reasonable, but I am wondering why the sudden drop to 5 percent in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12733 You go from 60 percent to 21, 21, 14, 15, and then you drop to 5 percent in the last year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12734 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, I would like to answer that question, because I was involved in some of this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12735 Having been involved in a standalone radio station in this market, where we started off with very low revenue, when the station starts to attract numbers and starts to be successful in the market, the revenues tend to go up in the early years very quickly. However, you get to a point where you start to mature, and then your growth goes back to ‑‑ it could be back to the market or less than the market, depending on what your ratings are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12736 So, potentially, you have steep growth in the beginning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12737 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I recognize that, but there is also a very steep drop between Year 6 and Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12738 I was wondering if you anticipate something happening in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12739 MR. MEANEY: I guess we think we have made it by then.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12740 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, you can appreciate that over a seven‑year term it is very difficult to see where everything is coming from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12741 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12742 MR. TRIPATHY: In taking a look at those numbers, again, we wanted to be responsible, understanding that the market has been growing where it has been growing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12743 The decrease from Year 6 to Year 7, as Rick indicated, indicates maturation, I guess, of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12744 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: The frequency you have proposed as your first choice is 92.9, isn't it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12745 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12746 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: If that is not available as your first choice, would you consider the use of another alternative frequency?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12747 If yes, which one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12748 MR. TRIPATHY: Our first choice would be 92.2. We made a commitment from a funding standpoint to research and choose that particular frequency, for a reason.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12749 In speaking with your technical people, as I am sure the Commission has recognized, there can be some challenges on some of the other frequencies that have been put forward by the applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12750 We chose to avoid that and go with 92.9, because it has the clearest signal, and will not have interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12751 If, for whatever reason, the Commission was to see fit to license us and deemed that 92.9 could be used by somebody else for better use, we would obviously respect that and have a look at a particular frequency, if need be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12752 This may be a personal thing, and I may get into trouble with my partners, but 92.9 is definitely the clearest frequency. One of the reasons and one of the benefits of this radio station securing that particular frequency is the broad‑based appeal that this format has. Understanding where we as a company are trying to go, and where the Commission is trying to go with some of its initiatives, as far as reflection on community, diversity and multiculturalism, we are of the opinion that to have a broad‑based format on that particular frequency would be in the best interests, not only for ourselves, but also for Calgarians overall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12753 At the end of the day, though, we will respect your decision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12754 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Have you identified any alternative frequency to 92.9?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12755 MR. TRIPATHY: We have spoken with engineers and we have a couple of different positions that are potentially there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12756 As I indicated, there are some challenges on most of the frequencies with interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12757 It would seem to us that probably the most responsible thing to do would be to go back to our engineers and make sure we clarify the particular frequency that we want to go with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12758 We have looked at alternatives, we are just not exactly sure what would be the best one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12759 You can appreciate, depending on the number of applicants that are licensed, that certain frequencies will be gone, and they will also put into play a number of different dynamics, as far as what is best for our group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12760 But, at the end of the day, we will take a look at it, if need be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12761 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Did you take a look at 106.1?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12762 Do you recall?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12763 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, I believe there are some NavCan problems with that one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12764 So, no, we stayed away from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12765 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So that would not be a viable alternative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12766 MR. MEANEY: No. Having spoken to our engineer ‑‑ and sometimes it is hard to understand what they are trying to tell you ‑‑ he didn't indicate that there was a second full‑power frequency that would be suitable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12767 When you get down to the third one, you start running into impaired frequencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12768 But our position would be, should you give us a licence and not that frequency, that we would be willing to look for another frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12769 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I have two final questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12770 This one is simple. Your advisory committee of seven members, which you referred to on page 12 of your supplementary, is that separate from your board of directors?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12771 I will tell you why I ask this question. Perhaps it is just coincidence, but in your incorporating documents you have named seven as the maximum number of directors. That just made me wonder whether they are the same body.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12772 MR. MEANEY: No, that is a coincidence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12773 The advisory board consists of seven separate people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12774 I don't know if you want me to go through it or not ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12775 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: No, that's okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12776 The last question. How many more stations do you think the Calgary market could absorb?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12777 MR. TRIPATHY: Again, this is a conversation that I am sure every applicant has had over the last few weeks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12778 Being from Calgary, and understanding what is going on in this marketplace, and understanding the economics of this city ‑‑ and, quite frankly, the economics of the broadcast business, because there are a lot of great operators that are currently in this marketplace that have made this marketplace strong ‑‑ we are definitely of the opinion that there is room for more than one applicant to be licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12779 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I'm sorry, one more question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12780 Are the two young gentlemen sitting back there potential hosts for the kids' show?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12781 MR. TRIPATHY: I am hoping they will be shareholders one day in the company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12782 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12783 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Duncan has a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12784 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I wanted to clarify, Mr. Tripathy, in response to Commissioner Del Val's question regarding the CTD payments for Years 5, 6 and 7, I think you stated 420, 453 and 475, respectively, for those years, and I notice that those are the totals, in fact, on the sheet you gave us this morning, except your columns are adding incorrectly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12785 So I think the numbers she had were correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12786 Would you agree with that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12787 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, I would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12788 We apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12789 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: That's all right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12790 Those numbers, once corrected, then come forward to the financial statement that you gave us, the income statement ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12791 MR. TRIPATHY: At the end of the day, Commissioner Duncan, the number is $2.1 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12792 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: In total.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12793 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes. And if it has been incorrectly added up, those funds will be redistributed and totalled up correctly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12794 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right. I am tying them into your statement, and it looks fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12795 I do notice, though, that on your pro forma statement, which was also provided this morning, I can't follow the net income as reported on 4.1 of your pro forma statement of changes in financial position. In the same vein, I can't trace the depreciation expense to your statement of changes in financial position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12796 I just didn't know whether there was an error and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12797 MR. TRIPATHY: In taking a look at the pro forma ‑‑ a couple of things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12798 First, we filed a pro forma statement in response to a deficiency request from the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12799 Upon filing that, we had an adjustment in our CTD commitment, just prior to presenting, which took us up to the $2.1 million. As a result, it has had an effect on our pro forma statements.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12800 I think what probably would be best, if it is acceptable to the Commission, is if we were to review the totals, make sure they are in order, and then resubmit them so they are correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12801 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I can see that the income statement ties in with your objective. I think the problems with the pro forma statement are with changes in financial position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12802 That would be fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12803 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you. We appreciate that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12804 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: There is one other question that I have, which is on your opening remarks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12805 This puzzled me ‑‑ and I am interested in your reaction. You mention on page 6 that three of the local broadcasters changed their formats since you did your music research in June. I wondered what the message is that we should take from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12806 They are experienced in the region, and they moved out of the area that you are wanting to move into. Do you think it is just because they wanted to concentrate on a younger audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12807 Why wouldn't one of the three have moved more in the direction that you people want to go?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12808 MR. TRIPATHY: I will turn that question over to Rick Meaney.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12809 MR. MEANEY: Commissioner Duncan, there was an alteration in format, not a change in format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12810 There was one change in format, which was on the AM station, from adult standards to traditional country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12811 The other stations ‑‑ with CHFM, because there was an opportunity, I believe, in a younger demo below them, they broadened their format so they could go younger.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12812 Why would they do that? Obviously, I think they could maximize profits.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12813 In terms of the smooth jazz station, the information I have is that it would be an improvement for them to change and, thus, have a better bottom line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12814 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I suppose, with these stations putting a greater emphasis on a younger audience, it makes the opening for you people even better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12815 MR. TRIPATHY: I think, at the end of the day, that was the point that we were trying to make.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12816 As well, Commissioner Duncan, you can appreciate that this market is a very fluid market and, as much as we are up to date today as we are speaking, there will be further changes before we move forward next year, depending on who is licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12817 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12818 Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12819 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12820 I have one question, and legal counsel also has a question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12821 In your opening remarks you said that there was no news on Calgary FM stations after 9:00 a.m. until 4:00 p.m. Obviously, you are making the commitment that you will have news during that time period. For how long?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12822 MS HEALY: We have made the commitment to have news while we have a licence. That is part of our commitment, to have news during the daytime.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12823 MR. TRIPATHY: To add to what Laurie said, if the Commission felt the need to, we would certainly accept it as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12824 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12825 Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12826 MS BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12827 I want to clarify, further to Commissioner Duncan's question a couple of minutes ago, about the CTD commitment reflected in the table you filed this morning, and in the revised section 4.1 of your application. I want to confirm that you understand that the CTD COL would be based on the annual commitments reflected in section 4.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12828 So, yes, the seven‑year $2.1 million commitment is relevant, but the actual COL would reflect those annual incremental amounts that are outlined in section 4.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12829 MR. TRIPATHY: I'm sorry, could I ask you to repeat the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12830 MS BENNETT: Sure. The revised section 4.1 that you filed this morning reflects the annual CTD amounts that were reflected in your letter of December 9, 2005. As you were discussing earlier, it is $108,000 per year for Years 1 to 3, then $368,000 for Year 4, $440,000 for Year 5, $473,000 for Year 6, and $495,000 for Year 7. The condition of licence with respect to CTD would reflect those specific annual amounts, not just the total seven‑year commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12831 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12832 MS BENNETT: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12833 That is my only question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12834 THE CHAIRPERSON: You agreed to refile the financial statement and the cash flow statement. When could we expect to receive them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12835 MR. TRIPATHY: We would be more than happy to have those numbers recalculated and back to the Commission by week's end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12836 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we expect to have them at the reply time on Friday?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12837 MR. TRIPATHY: I think that would be very doable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12838 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That's fair, because we need to have a complete record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12839 This is your opportunity, in your own words, to tell us, in no more than five minutes, the reasons why you think the Commission should grant you this licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12840 MR. TRIPATHY: I am glad you put that time limit on it, because I would have gone on all day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12841 First and foremost, we would like to thank everyone for the opportunity to speak here today. We believe the seventies and eighties soft rock format that we are offering is the most distinctive choice for the Calgary radio market in terms of minimum overlap and minimum impact on existing stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12842 Our target demo of 35 to 64 is currently the most under‑served group in the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12843 As far as the business plan, we filed a realistic business plan and revenue projections, based on the strength of the Calgary economy and the radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12844 Our local sales, programming and management team have the experience here in Calgary and the business relationships that will make this station a success.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12845 The proposed Canadian content of 35 percent is realistic. It is practical for a new station, and it is targeted at an older demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12846 We are committed to new and emerging artists. Our focus is on Canadian artists, and we will specifically seek to include artists from Calgary, as well as Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12847 Our Canadian Talent Development initiatives, totalling $2.1 million in direct costs over the seven‑year licence term, will contribute substantially to the promotion of Canadian artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12848 We are a new voice in the Calgary market. We are local, we are independent, and we will provide Calgarians with a new editorial voice and a new choice on the FM band for the 35‑64 demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12849 The shareholders of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated are longtime residents of Calgary. We have been involved in broadcasting, and we live here in this community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12850 STAR FM will include and reflect the aboriginal and the ethnic diversity of Calgary in its programming, in its staffing, and in its management.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12851 We believe that granting an FM licence to our group would meet the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the Radio Policy of 1998, which are: diversity of voice, fair competition, and diversity of formats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12852 At the end of the day, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, you have been presented a unique opportunity, and we believe that you are in an enviable position to take a look at an application that is, one, local, two, independent, and three, backed by an incredible amount of broadcast experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12853 We have looked at the other applications from B.C., from the groups in Saskatchewan, from Manitoba, from Ontario and the Maritimes. They are terrific applications, but, at the end of the day, what we want to emphasize to the Commission is, there is only one application here in Calgary, which is by Calgarians and for Calgarians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12854 We thank you for your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12855 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tripathy. We thank your group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12856 We will recess for five minutes to allow the members of the next Applicant to take their places.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1100 /
Suspension à 1100
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1110
Reprise à 1110
LISTNUM 1 \l 12857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12858 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12859 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12860 We will now proceed with Item 6 on the agenda, which is an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited, the general partner, and Jim Pattison Industries Limited, the limited partner, carrying on business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12861 The new station would operate on Frequency 90.3 Mhz, Channel 212‑C1, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 298.5 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12862 Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Rick Arnish, who will introduce his colleagues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12863 He will have 20 minutes for his presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12864 Mr. Arnish.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12865 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12866 Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff. My name is Rick Arnish, and I am president of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12867 We are very pleased to be here with you this morning to present to you our application for a new soft vocals FM station, SILK FM, to serve the City of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12868 Before we begin our presentation, it is my pleasure to introduce the SILK FM team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12869 To my immediate right, and to your left, is Gerry Siemens, Vice President and General Manager of the Pattison Broadcast Group's Vancouver stations. Gerry is a native Calgarian, has been in the broadcast industry for 32 years, and was the program director for two Calgary radio stations in the nineties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12870 His family still calls Calgary home, and he quarterbacked the development of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12871 Beside Gerry is Jasmin Doobay, currently a news director within the Pattison Group, who will speak to the news, current events and arts section of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12872 Jasmin has been in the broadcast industry for 14 years, and has worked as a broadcast journalist in western Canada for 12 years, the last 3 of which have been with the Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12873 To my left, and to your right, is Angela Kelman, a former member of the Juno Award‑winning Canadian country music group Farmer's Daughter. Angela released a solo smooth vocal CD of pop standards a couple of years ago, has recorded a children's album, and is a professional music teacher.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12874 Beside Angela is Kat Stewart, Broadcast Group head at the B.C. Institute of Technology in Vancouver, and a graduate of the Canadian Women in Communications Radio Career Accelerator Program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12875 In the second row, beginning at your far right, is Bruce Davis, Vice President of Sales for the Pattison Broadcast Group. Bruce is a 38‑year veteran of the broadcast industry, and has spent most of his career in Alberta, including Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12876 Beside Bruce is Kim McKechnie, currently a sales manager within the Pattison Group. Kim also works with the Pattison real estate division, on a part‑time basis, in land development negotiations with government, and is familiar with the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12877 To Kim's right is Chris Weafer, legal counsel from Owen Bird.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12878 Beside Chris is John Yerxa, President of John Yerxa Research Inc. from Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12879 Beside John is Frank Lee, a secondary school music teacher.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12880 Completing our seated panel is Bill Dinicol, Vice President of Finance of the Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12881 Standing to my right, and to give you a small taste of the Canadian talent that is being developed at the high school level, are four Grade 12 students ‑‑ Corey Hollett, Noel Hollett, David McHugh, and James Turner ‑‑ who call themselves "Synergy".
‑‑‑ MUSICAL PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION MUSICALE
LISTNUM 1 \l 12882 Mr. Chairman, we are now ready to begin our presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12883 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think that was the resurrection of the barbershop quartet.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12884 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is very good to see young people singing a cappella. I appreciate it very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12885 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That was truly an outstanding presentation, and Seacove Secondary in North Vancouver would be very proud of "Synergy" this morning here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12886 As you just said, Mr. Chairman, it is another example of Canadian talent developing in our high school systems in western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12887 We will talk more about "Synergy" and the Save the Music Foundation later in our presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12888 Mr. Chairman, Commission Members, the application we have before you is very important, and it is a very important application for the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12889 Approving the Pattison Broadcast Group application would add significant strength to one of the very few longstanding, western‑based, multi‑station broadcasting companies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12890 It would allow us to strengthen connections with our existing stations in Alberta by extending our regional coverage, which is important to our news gathering and reporting structure throughout the province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12891 It would also be our first major market station in Alberta, which would create opportunities for our employees to experience both major markets and small markets while remaining in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12892 As the Commission is aware, we have invested heavily in smaller markets, but need the large market presence to ensure our overall stable competitive position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12893 Licensing the Pattison Broadcast Group would also add a strongly needed western‑Canadian‑based independent voice to the Calgary market, a market that is unique to Canadian broadcasting, in that 11 of the 13 commercial stations are eastern based, and 10 of those are owned by only 3 companies, all based out of Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12894 We believe, consistent with Commission criteria, that a new station for Calgary must:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12895 One, provide a new format choice which adds diversity in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12896 Two, have strong Canadian Talent Development initiatives and other tangible benefits that contribute to the Canadian broadcast system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12897 Three, be based on a solid but realistic business plan, and have the financial resources of a strong owner to ensure that commitments are met over a seven‑year licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12898 Four, have minimal impact on the existing players.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12899 Five, be of benefit to the local community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12900 The Pattison application addresses all of those points, the highlights of which we will discuss today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12901 The soft vocals format we have chosen would be unique in the Calgary market, and would serve an audience that is currently not serviced by existing broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12902 To speak on the feel and flavour of the new SILK FM, here is Gerry Siemens.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12903 MR. SIEMENS: In studying the market, we determined that nearly half of the population in Calgary is between the ages of 35 and 64, and that fully 38 percent of the people in Calgary are over the age of 45, yet none of the existing Calgary FM stations focus on this ever‑increasing segment of the population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12904 We confirmed that fully one‑third of Calgarians between the ages of 35 and 64 said they would listen to an oldies‑based, soft vocals station a lot, and that nearly 70 percent of that same demographic said they would give such a station consideration.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12905 The soft vocals format of today has evolved from what was known as "middle of the road" in the sixties and seventies. Our station will be music intensive, and will highlight music that is currently not being exposed on any station in the Calgary marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12906 The station will be targeted to the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic, primarily those who are 45‑plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12907 SILK FM will highlight new Canadian music that has no other home in the Calgary marketplace. A minimum of 25 percent of the Canadian music we play will be newer Canadian music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12908 The Pattison Broadcast Group is intimately familiar with the soft vocals format through our experience with 600 AM Vancouver, and we know that there is an ever‑growing list of Canadian artists which we have contributed to developing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12909 To name a few, Megan Fanning, Armi Grano, Susan Arioli, Carol Welsman, Holly Cole, Tammy Weiss, Doug Lallo, Tina Moore, our friend Angela Kelman, and many others.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12910 We are encouraged to see young talent such as "Synergy", who you just heard, and look forward to adding them to our playlist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12911 SILK FM will be an oasis of tasteful music, diverse in sound, with low repetition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12912 It will have enough familiarity to attract and hold listeners, and enough new music to entice them to listen longer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12913 We plan to further enhance the sound of the station through special long‑form spoken word programs, on topics of interest to the demographic, as described in our application, as well as short‑form features, such as "The Flavours of Calgary" and the SILK FM "Travel Diary".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12914 News, current events and coverage of the arts will also be central to the success of our proposed station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12915 To comment on those components is Jasmin Doobay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12916 MS DOOBAY: An older demographic has a greater need to know than a younger one, and SILK FM will respond with a minimum of 5 hours and 13 minutes of news per week. This will set us apart from the existing FM stations in the Calgary market, where only one station has any news after the breakfast program, and where news content is virtually non‑existent on weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12917 Our newsroom will be staffed seven days a week, and newscasts will be spread evenly throughout the broadcast day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12918 Our station will provide a new editorial and news programming voice into the Calgary market, where so many voices are controlled by so few owners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12919 The news coverage on our station will go beyond headlines. Each day we will produce, in‑house, a 30‑minute current events program called "In Touch", which will allow us to probe deeper into stories that affect the lives of Calgarians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12920 The best stories of the week will be expanded upon for our longer Sunday morning program, "The In Touch Weekend Edition".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12921 The 35‑64 demographic is a huge supporter of the arts, and SILK FM will have, as an integral part of our schedule, much needed coverage of arts and culture in the City of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12922 "On the Street" is an entertainment billboard airing four times a day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12923 "Arts and Stuff", an arts feature, will also broadcast four times a day, will highlight concert information, gallery and theatre openings, and other cultural events of interest in the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12924 Our arts coverage will culminate with the Sunday morning program "Into the Arts". This 60‑minute magazine program will preview the upcoming week's performances, visual and literary arts events, using on‑location interviews and coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12925 MR. ARNISH: The Pattison Broadcast Group is very proud of the $7 million in CTD initiatives and tangible benefits that we have developed in support of our Calgary application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12926 Of that amount, we have dedicated $5.6 million for Canadian Talent Development initiatives, including $3.5 million for the Save the Music Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12927 This initiative is designed to enhance and complement existing high school and secondary music education programs in Alberta and British Columbia to assist in the development of excellence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12928 It is a unique initiative, specifically designed for western Canada, and its role will be to help identify, fund and develop the best of the best.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12929 We believe that to develop Canadian talent we must, as broadcasters, expand beyond only assisting professional and semi‑professional musicians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12930 Many of those programs are already in place and are having a positive effect on the broadcasting and music industries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12931 We have been active, long‑term supporters of FACTOR and similar initiatives, and will continue to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12932 The Save the Music initiative is based on a firmly held belief that development of Canadian talent must begin with our youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12933 Earlier you heard "Synergy". I am sure you will agree that, for four 17‑year‑old young adults, they have an extraordinary skill.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12934 This year they will graduate from high school. Where is the vehicle to assist them to the next level?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12935 If they were hockey players, they would move to a junior league and prepare for a possible professional career at an increased level of play.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12936 The Save the Music Foundation will be in a position to assist groups like "Synergy" with funding, mentoring, equipment purchases, and travel costs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12937 The members of "Synergy" come from a high school with a very good music program, yet, as Mr. Lee of our panel can attest, a great deal of their time, and that of their teacher and families, is spent fundraising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12938 The Save the Music Foundation will enable hundreds of young adults to work on their music and on their other studies, secure in the knowledge that there is a solid floor of support beneath their feet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12939 By joining forces with the Rocky Mountain Music Festival, we have been able to access instant expertise and an established network of musical educators that has taken festival organizer Willie Connell a lifetime to build. Mr. Connell will be here to speak to you later this week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12940 I would now ask Angela Kelman to give her perspective on the Save the Music initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12941 MS KELMAN: I am here today to support the Pattison Broadcast Group for a couple of reasons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12942 One, I am a recording artist who will potentially benefit from the station format that is being applied for today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12943 Two, I am the product of a healthy music program in the public school system that recognized my level of talent, provided a vehicle to develop my skills, and gave me the confidence to follow my dream of having a career as a recording artist and entertainer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12944 In my teens I had the great fortune to start a high school band that was very different from the norm. The band was the vision of a highly motivated teacher, Mr. Gerry Perkin, who donated his own time and resources. This man changed my life.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12945 By recognizing my talent and helping to develop real‑life experiences of working singers and musicians, such as live concerts at our own high school, as well as other schools around the province, our own television show at the local TV station, and setting foot in a recording studio to record our first record, I was started on the career path I follow today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12946 I feel it is my responsibility to help guide the next generation of singers and musicians who will represent Canada on the world stage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12947 The Pattison Broadcast Group's Save the Music program will concentrate on and foster the strengths of kids who have what it takes, ensuring that Canada has future generations of artists to be proud of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12948 MR. ARNISH: In addition to the Save the Music Foundation, the Pattison Broadcast Group has committed funding, and additional $2.1 million, in Canadian talent initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12949 We need an early and regular supply of Canadian content recordings. Local artists can always use a leg up, so SILK FM has committed $1.19 million in direct spending and $1.75 million in indirect value to the recording of two CD compilations annually for seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12950 A free concert will be held in Calgary, showcasing the artists, and broadcast as part of our regular feature "Somewhere Live".
LISTNUM 1 \l 12951 The second initiative, SILK Series ‑ Road Version, will see the station fund a series of concerts featuring Canadian artists, with a special emphasis on profiling local musicians. We will provide $50,000 to Canadian musicians annually for this project.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12952 Finally, the Pattison Broadcast Group pledges annual support of $30,000 to the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, and $50,000 to the Alberta Recording Industry Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12953 MR. SIEMENS: As proud as we are of our Canadian talent initiatives, we believe that broadcasters can and should also contribute by getting involved in other areas of the industry. That is why we have proposed $1.4 million in other tangible benefits.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12954 That figure includes a $700,000 commitment to Canadian Women in Communications, half of which will be used to save the Radio Career Accelerator Program for women, and half of which will be earmarked to launch a new career accelerator program designed to assist the careers of visible minorities, aboriginal persons and persons with disabilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12955 We are pleased to have with us the broadcast program head from the B.C. Institute of Technology, Ms Kat Stewart. Kat has experienced the Career Accelerator program firsthand and would be pleased to answer any questions you have on the benefits of the program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12956 MS STEWART: Completing the CWC's career accelerator program for radio left me empowered, revitalized and energized. It enhanced my knowledge of the radio industry and broadened my ability to network with key industry representatives across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12957 The program provided an ability to utilize the guest speakers as resources for my professional enhancement, to expand my course content, and provided information on key technological changes and insight into future possibilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12958 The course also introduced motivational techniques to inspire personal growth and facilitate opportunities to enhance my mentorship abilities for students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12959 As a broadcaster, my philosophy in the classroom is to encourage, excite and motivate students to pursue excellence in radio. That commitment challenges me to pursue knowledge and apply it to my personal and professional development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12960 The CWC radio accelerator program is out of funding, and I am worried that it will soon die, which would be a great loss for all women in the Canadian broadcast industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12961 MR. SIEMENS: We have also pledged $700,000 to two other important initiatives: one, a strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis Association and the Alberta College of Art and Design, which will see the development of two continuing adult education programs; and two, the second commitment, the development of a new program called Broadcast Leadership Bootcamp at SAIT.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12962 The camp will be to better prepare persons employed in the broadcast industry for management opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12963 Our employment equity initiatives are designed to be of benefit and to lower entry barriers in the broadcast industry for the four designated groups, or to encourage career acceleration of the four groups for those that are already in the industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12964 Finally, the Pattison Broadcast Group undertakes, at a minimum, that 50 percent of the new hires for our startup operation will be representatives of the four designated groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12965 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, you have a large number of applicants before you for these important Calgary frequencies. We are all making promises about our contributions to the community, to Canadian talent and to the system, but to deliver on these contributions there must be a business case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12966 The Pattison Broadcast Group has a long history of running specialized formats in our Vancouver operation, where we have operated our FM station in a country format for 20 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12967 Our AM station has been in a niche format for 13 years, the last 8 of which have been in a soft vocals format, very similar to what we are proposing for Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12968 We know how to successfully operate a specialized format competitively in a major market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12969 We know that we must be patient. As a new station appealing to the upper end of a key demographic, it takes time to find its feet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12970 We know that this format will work, given time. We are committed to making it work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12971 We are confident in our ability to meet the ambitious commitments that we have made. We have a solid and attainable business plan, and we have the resources of the Pattison Group of Companies behind us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12972 The Broadcast Group is at the very cornerstone of that group of companies, and we are in the broadcast industry for the long haul.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12973 In every business that the Pattison Group goes into, it does so on the premise that the business is multi‑generational, and our commitments in this Calgary process go beyond any given licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12974 Mr. Chairman, we believe that the fact that we are a western‑based broadcast group is a critical component of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12975 Consolidation of ownership has indeed strengthened the Canadian broadcast system, but it has also reduced the diversity of editorial voices and created an imbalance, where almost every newspaper, radio and television station is controlled by eastern ownership.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12976 That situation is exacerbated in Calgary, where 10 of the 13 commercial radio stations are controlled by 3 companies, and where 11 of the 13 have ownership in eastern Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12977 As a regional player, we have experience in competing against the major eastern Canadian radio players in Vancouver. We are in the business for the long haul and have the resources to successfully compete in the Calgary market, with a format that will not impact on the existing radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12978 None of these companies has intervened against our application, recognizing that there will be no material harm caused by the addition of our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12979 Mr. Chairman, the Pattison Broadcast Group keeps its promises and serves its communities. We have a core belief that the more we serve our community, the more successful we will be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12980 In the acquisition of Monarch Broadcasting in 2001, we committed over $1 million to build a state‑of‑the‑art media arts centre for young students at Pacific Academy in Surrey, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12981 That outstanding facility was open to students in September of 2005.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12982 In 2005 our radio and TV stations gave back $10.3 million in PSA and community service time to the towns and cities we work in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12983 We operate excellent radio stations. New Country 93.7 JRFM has been named Canada's country music station of the year by "Canada Music Week" two years in a row, and is nominated for a third.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12984 Our group has received a number of CAB Gold Ribbon Awards, RTNDA Awards, along with many others in recent years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12985 Recognition for this commitment was accorded Mr. Pattison, when he was awarded the Canadian Association of Broadcasters' most prestigious award, the Gold Ribbon for Broadcast Excellence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12986 The Pattison Broadcast Group is poised for growth and is committed to continued investment in the broadcast industry, with an application pending for the purchase of Island Radio and two other applications pending for new FM stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12987 However, the Pattison Broadcast Group is also facing challenges in the markets we serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12988 In 2005, our primary competitor in Kamloops was granted a third radio licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12989 There are many FM applications pending in three other markets that we are licensed to serve: Grand Prairie, Medicine Hat and Lethbridge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12990 There can be little doubt that our operations in these smaller markets are going to be challenged in the coming years, which makes our application for Calgary all the more critical to our ability to service our communities at the high level that our audience and the Commission have come to expect.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12991 As our second major market, Calgary would strengthen a growing, western‑based Canadian broadcast company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12992 In conclusion, Members of the Commission, we have a unique format designed for an audience that is being under‑served. We have a business plan that is workable, and we have the resources to compete with the major chains from eastern Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12993 We have committed $7 million in tangible benefits, including $5.6 million in unique Canadian talent initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12994 Finally, we have the very original and brand new Canadian Talent Development initiative, the Save the Music Foundation, which will impact Canadian talent where it really matters, with our youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12995 We submit that we will provide significant benefits to the community of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12996 Thank you for your kind consideration. We welcome your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12997 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Arnish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12998 My questions will relate to: audience clarifications, particularly regarding your demographic; establishing the differences and the similarities between the Pattison application and the competing applications; music format clarification; CTD; your projected revenues; and some questions on alternative frequencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12999 I will start with my first line of questions, which have to do with your target audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13000 In your application you have identified the 35‑64 demographic as your target audience. In your supplementary brief, on page 14, you state that the core target audience will be the 45‑plus age group. Again, this morning in your oral presentation you mentioned that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13001 Could you confirm to the Commission whether your core target audience is indeed 45‑plus?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13002 I think you said so in your oral presentation, but I would like you to confirm that for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13003 MR. SIEMENS: The broad target, Mr. Chairman, is 35 to 64. The specific target will be adults 45‑plus. We could narrow it down further. If we had to be very precise, we would be targeting adults 45 to 54 years of age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13005 You describe your proposed music format as soft vocal music from a variety of genres, but predominantly classics from the fifties, sixties and seventies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13006 As you are aware, there are three other applicants in this hearing, and we have already heard them ‑‑ they were the last three applicants ‑‑ that are proposing similar music services, and are also targeting a similar audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13007 Could you please explain how you believe your proposed format would be more successful in reaching the same target audience as the other three applicants?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13008 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will speak to that for a moment, and then I will ask John Yerxa for a comment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13009 I think the difference between the Evenov, the Larson, and the Pattison applications comes down to this: it is primarily focus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13010 The mainstay of our format is the soft vocal music of the sixties and the seventies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13011 People develop a passion for the music they listen to when they are primarily between the ages of 12 and 20 years of age. That is about the age that a young person decides to move away from their parents' taste and develop tastes of their own, and it's that 12 to 20 age group where music is really, really important to young people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13012 If we consider that to be true, a woman who turned 10 in 1965 is today 50 years of age. A woman who turned 10 in 1975 is 40 years of age. So the sixties and seventies were their formative years, and those were the years when they developed a passion for the music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13013 The second focus of our station is new music from the last six years. We have committed that a minimum of 25 percent of Canadian music that we play will be from the last six years, and in fact it is likely to be much higher than that as a result of the hit/non‑hit rule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13014 The third element of our station is the salt and pepper, if you will, which are the standards from the likes of Sinatra, Dean Martin, Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis Jr., and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13015 It comes down, primarily, to focus. Our music mix will be approximately 60 percent from the sixties and seventies, 35 percent from the last six years, and then 5 percent from the fifties, which is the salt and pepper that I referred to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13016 I think the other differentiating factors between Evanov, Larson and ourselves is that we have the money to hire professional communicators. With all due respect, in our opinion, it is not reasonable to hire 20‑year‑old students and expect them to communicate with a 50‑year‑old audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13017 An important part of our application is that we are committed to an employment equity initiative that will see 50 percent of our new hires be representative of the four designated groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13018 I think, in licensing a new operation, the Commission has a unique opportunity to meet employment equity initiatives, and our proposal is distinct in this regard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13019 With regard to the format differentials between ourself and the other two applicants you mentioned, I will ask John Yerxa to speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13020 MR. YERXA: Mr. Chairman, just a clarification. Do you wish me to speak on what an oldies‑based AC radio station is, or do you wish me to specifically address the differences between Pattison and the other applicants in this realm?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13021 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would prefer that you address the second part, the differences between your application and the other applications.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13022 MR. YERXA: What I would like to do, then, is refer to a memo that I recently passed on to Mr. Arnish. I will refer to that in dealing specifically with the other three applicants before us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13023 Upon examining the research done for the Calgary Independent Broadcasters' Application, and comparing it with Pattison, it is quite obvious that the difference is essentially one of sixties and seventies versus seventies and eighties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13024 Whereas the Pattison format would attract a larger proportion of 45‑plus listeners by playing soft vocals from the sixties and seventies, the Calgary Independent format would encompass more 35 to 44‑year‑olds by playing more soft rock from the seventies and eighties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13025 Even though seventies music is the common thread here, according to Pattison's research, there is a bigger, more distinct FM hole in the market for their format, simply because there are more FM stations playing eighties music in Calgary ‑‑ for example, JACK FM ‑‑ than there are FM stations playing sixties music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13026 Regarding the Larson and Norscot application, when I look at their research findings ‑‑ and I note on page 23 of their supplementary brief that of all the music types which they presented to respondents in order to help them better define the musical composition of their radio station, of the 8 types presented, the top 2 most popular groups that emerged encompassed sixties and seventies vocals, those groups which perfectly describe the Pattison format, and which any broadcaster would be well advised to present if they wanted to create a popular, not to mention viable format for 35 to 64‑year‑olds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13027 However, near the bottom of their interest rankings are the classic performances and classic re‑makes, those artists which they are actually heavily billboarding in their application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13028 Therefore, if they do in fact end up emphasizing those kinds of artists, then they will certainly be offering more adult standards and nostalgia artists and classic re‑makes than Pattison is prepared to do, hence, skewing older.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13029 With regard to Evanov, they appear to be proposing an exceptionally broad format, one which someone on their panel described yesterday as all‑encompassing and all‑inclusive. It sounds a bit like a family union, but, from a programming perspective, it is pretty difficult to attract both 35‑year‑olds and 60‑year‑olds by playing the same music, unless maybe it's country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13030 So you pretty well end up drifting in one direction or the other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13031 Therefore, our analysis suggests that the Evanov format will probably end up skewing older than Pattison. After all, as Evanov says, I think, on page 5 of their supplementary brief, the ratio of classic to current will be weighted in favour of classic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13032 I hope that helps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13033 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13034 My second question will be directed toward the incumbent radio stations. Some of them are already offering the type of music that you are proposing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13035 Could you explain how you believe your proposed format will better serve that demographic than those stations are currently doing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13036 MR. SIEMENS: Mr. Chairman, we did a two‑day BDS monitor of stations in the market that we thought might play some of the same music we do, and we found that there was only a 3 percent duplication with CHFM and a 6 percent duplication with what was then "The Breeze". Both of those stations have since altered their programming somewhat, and I don't think there will be any duplication whatsoever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13037 With regard to the older demographic, you have JACK, which is predominantly a male station, targeting men 25 to 44. There is CJ, a rock station, targeting men. CKRY is a country station. It skews a little bit older, attracting an audience that is 25 to 54 years of age. The other FM station, "The Vibe", is very young, 18 to 34. There is Classic Rock, again a male station. And then there is the Christian station, which is a specialized audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13038 When we look at those radio stations and who we might impact, we might take a bit from CHFM, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13039 As a matter of fact, in the mid‑nineties I was the program director at CHFM. In fact, I was the program director on duty when we put it into its current "Light 96" format. So I am very familiar with the direction of that radio station, and we don't see any duplication of music there at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13040 Mr. Yerxa, perhaps you could comment further on where the audience will come from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13041 MR. YERXA: First of all, when Pattison approached me, having launched three stations in the market already ‑‑ and we are in the market usually about every three months ‑‑ the first thing they asked was: Who should we survey?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13042 I said: You really have two options. You can go upper end or lower end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13043 Based on our discussions, we decided to go upper end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13044 Having said that, having focused on the 35 to 64 demographic, we then presented what we considered to be a fairly good group of music types that we knew appealed to those people, and we recognized that the four groups which were the most popular ‑‑ because, really, when you do these format finder studies, it all breaks down to popularity and availability.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13045 What we discovered was that the four most popular music types ‑‑ I believe they were classic rock, country, light rock, and eighties ‑‑ although they were the most popular, they were already perceived to be well served on the FM dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13046 However, the remaining four groups, although not necessarily able to stand individually on their own, when you amalgamated them into a group ‑‑ this oldies‑based soft AC concept ‑‑ you realized that there was definitely potential there, but, most importantly, upon examining each of those groups, you discovered that there really wasn't a specific radio station on the FM dial that was serving any of those decades, if you will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13047 So that is how we came up with the concept of the oldies‑based AC format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13048 As far as its impact on existing radio stations and the crossover, the fact is that this station will be primarily focused on music before 1980, apart from the Cancon, which is very important as far as flavouring and texture is concerned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13049 These other radio stations, by and large, are offering different music, be it classic rock or country, or light rock, or eighties, and they are, of course, primarily playing music that is 1980s or more current.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13050 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will move now to the music section of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13051 You have proposed a music format, which you have referred to using various descriptions: soft vocals, timeless soft vocals, classic music, and soft vocals/adult standards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13052 I would refer you to your supplementary brief. These can be found on pages 12 to 14, where you have used these different descriptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13053 Which of these best describes your proposed format, and could you give us the particular features of your chosen format?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13054 MR. SIEMENS: The descriptor we prefer is the soft vocals format, because of the primary focus, which I mentioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13055 Mr. Yerxa, I will ask you to comment again in a moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13056 It is because of the primary focus that I mentioned a few minutes ago, targeting that particular demographic: 35 to 64 in broad terms; 45 to 54 in very narrow terms; and the focus of the music being, fundamentally, from the sixties and seventies, when these people were developing an emotional tie with the music of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13057 MR. YERXA: From a research standpoint, we have our own term. We call it oldies‑based soft AC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13058 First, let me begin by saying, in this respect, that when you look at the 45‑plus demographic in many markets, apart from country, what is largely available today, what broadcasters tend to want to offer these listeners, are these niche formats, like adult standards, smooth jazz and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13059 Many AC stations, for example ‑‑ adult contemporary stations ‑‑ in the past number of years have definitely drifted into more contemporary or ‑‑ I think you heard the term "brighter" used earlier. As a result, there now remains this whole batch of music that we no longer hear ‑‑ artists like Barbra Streisand, Simon and Garfunkle, and so on ‑‑ which, again, from a research perspective, we term "Square AC".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13060 Likewise, there are acts like James Taylor, Carole King, Linda Ronstadt, the Little River Band ‑‑ numerous other seventies‑based artists that AC radio has simply left behind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13061 This sound currently represents a huge void in many markets across this country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13062 If you want to spice it up with a few adult classic performers and classic re‑makes by artists like Michael Buble, that's great, but a specific focus on sixties and seventies music, over time, will help you to achieve your maximum share potential with 45 to 54‑year‑old listeners, and, therefore, have a significant influence within the 35 to 64 demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13063 The reality is, once most people, like myself, turn 45, we don't, all of a sudden, start wanting to listen to the music our parents listened to, but we wouldn't mind listening to some of the music we heard 30 years ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13064 I would also like to add that this reality, this situation, in my view, partially explains the phenomenal success of the JACK format, and its various cousins or clones, because, when it comes right down to it, that concept is probably, musically speaking, offering a menu to those listeners that is closest to the era we are talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13065 THE CHAIRPERSON: In reviewing the sample two‑day music playlist that you provided with your application, staff have observed that there could be some Category 3 music selections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13066 Would you be broadcasting a minimum weekly amount of Category 3 music? If yes, what would be the amount?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13067 MR. SIEMENS: If there was any at all, it would be an insignificant amount. We don't have any plans to broadcast Category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13068 If some of these titles fell into that category ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13069 THE CHAIRPERSON: They, more than likely, would be crossovers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13070 MR. SIEMENS: I would think so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13071 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to play any music of the fifties?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13072 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. As I mentioned a bit earlier, that would be the flavouring ‑‑ the salt and pepper of our format, if you like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13073 I don't anticipate that our music from the fifties would be more than 5 percent of our weekly playlist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13074 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your sample playlist you didn't have any music from the fifties. That is why I am asking the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13075 The presence of eighties music, despite your description, that music will be played.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13076 You also mentioned in your oral presentation that you will be playing music from the eighties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13077 MR. SIEMENS: Again, a very small amount.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13078 If you look at our two‑day list, you will see some stuff from the very early eighties that we feel fits the format quite well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13079 I see "Bette Davis Eyes" from Kim Carnes, which is certainly the feel and the flavour of what we are talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13080 There is also some Canadian music from David Foster and a few people like that from the eighties that we feel would fit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13081 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the area of Canadian content, you have said that a minimum of 25 percent of your Canadian musical selections will be devoted to new Canadian music. You define new Canadian music as being in the last five years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13082 Will this be the extent of the contemporary music on your station, or will you also draw from recent non‑Canadian music selections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13083 MR. SIEMENS: We found that there is an exciting and growing list of artists that are recording music that is format compatible. We could identify the Canadian ones, if you like. It is a growing list, and we have been a part of establishing that list with our station in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13084 But, yes, there are also artists like Carly Simon, of course Rod Stewart is very famous for his last four albums, Linda Ronstadt, and a growing list of contemporary artists who are not Canadian who are recording this type of music, and they, too, will help to flavour our radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given your proposed format, and your reliance on it, as set out in your sample playlist, what challenges do you envision in complying with the condition of licence to broadcast a maximum weekly hit level of 49 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13086 MR. SIEMENS: That is a very good question, Mr. Chairman, because it is a challenge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13087 The list that we supplied does fit hit/non‑hit compliance, but we found that to be a good mental exercise, and I think it was a good exercise to make us very aware of the challenges we will have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13088 But that is also an opportunity to play some new Canadian music from, what is now, since we wrote the application, the last six years ‑‑ from 2000 to today ‑‑ with all of the artists that have been mentioned by some of the other applicants, which include Armi Grano, Angela Kelman, Michael Buble, Tammy Weiss, Denzel Sinclaire ‑‑ the list goes on and on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13089 It is an opportunity for us to play that new Canadian music, and some of the Rod Stewart that we talked about a moment ago. That way we can make up our non‑hit component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13090 There are also a fair amount of albums from the sixties and seventies. One of the best‑selling albums of all time, Carole King's "Tapestry", only has two or three hits on it, and yet every person in this room, I am sure, could sing along with every track on that album.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13091 So you have an opportunity with albums like that, and there others ‑‑ Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours", some early Beatles stuff that is very soft and fits the format. It is very popular, everyone knows it, but it's not a hit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13092 So that will help make up our non‑hit component as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13093 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know that you are already broadcasting this format on your AM station in Vancouver, where you don't have the challenge of the hit to non‑hit ratio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13094 What kind of mechanism are you contemplating putting in place in Calgary to make sure that you will not exceed the maximum level of 49 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13095 MR. SIEMENS: I would like to make one point, Mr. Chairman. Certainly there are similarities between 600 AM and what we are proposing here in Calgary on SILK FM, but, in reality, 600 AM was launched as an adult standards radio station, and while we are in the process of turning the format slightly, it still is an adult standards radio station. It is distinctly older and different from what we are talking about with the new SILK FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13096 If I might comment, what Vancouver has taught us is how to deal with, develop and create a mature and older audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13097 It has also allowed us to be very familiar with and to assist in the development of Canadian talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13098 600 AM was the very first station in Canada to play Michael Buble. If he were here, he would tell you that very thing. We broke his career, and he has thanked us any number of times, any number of ways for the increased awareness that we made of his music. The same is true of a bunch of other artists, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13099 This list of Canadian artists is growing, and I think that 600 AM has been a very big part of that. So, for that, we are grateful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13100 With regard to monitoring the hit/non‑hit ratio, that is a matter of coding. When the music is input into the computer system, the music director knows what was a hit, what wasn't a hit, and he has but to program the computer to say that we will have no more than 49 percent hits, and we will stick with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13101 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to local programming and spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13102 Your programming in this area is reflective of programs targeted to a more mature audience. Given the particular interests of these listeners, what role will spoken word programming play?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13103 MR. SIEMENS: As I said just a moment ago ‑‑ and I will ask Jasmin Doobay to comment in a moment ‑‑ while the station in Vancouver is distinctly different from this, it has taught us what is important to a more mature audience, what type of spoken word elements they enjoy and what is important to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13104 That has had a definite impact on the type of spoken word programming we have put forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13105 MS DOOBAY: To go into a little more detail on our spoken word, we understand that this demographic needs to know about health issues, as we are getting older.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13106 They have children, of course, and they need to worry about their health issues, but there is also an older generation of parents which is also dealing with health issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13107 Money, of course, is very important to this age demographic. Is the mortgage rate going up? Am I going to be in trouble financially?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13108 We want to know about our homes. This is a very hot market for people moving in, and growing. Am I going to buy? Am I going to sell?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13109 We want to know about gardening, how to take care of our homes, and we want to make sure they are beautiful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13110 We love arts and culture as we are heading into this age, as well. There is perhaps a little more disposable income, and, of course, a bit more time on our hands, as our children are older and moving out. So we can take advantage of what this city has to offer, and there is a lot of arts and culture here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13111 Plus theatre and travel and food, as well. All of those are very important to our demographic, and I think we very specifically target that with our spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13112 News is also very beneficial and very important to this age group. We have made a commitment to run news full days, seven days a week, and have a very substantial newsroom that can cover all of the arts and news components.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13113 We have an "In Touch" feature, which is a 30‑minute news magazine that will run daily. If we were to take a look at what is happening in the world today, the top news story right now is that two Canadians have been killed in Mexico. How do we bring that back to Calgary? We are about three weeks away from spring break, and there are a lot of people heading down to Mexico, wondering if they are going to be safe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13114 I love the immediacy of radio. We could, in that half‑hour news magazine program, get that information to air, and perhaps calm a lot of people down who are heading away for the holidays.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13115 What we do with the "In Touch" news magazine, Monday through Friday, will culminate in the best of news stories being put together in a Sunday magazine format, which will be one‑hour long, again highlighting the best of what Calgarians really want to know about that happened in the week in Calgary, and what is pertinent to their lives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13116 We also get to focus on arts and stuff, billboarding what is happening with 90‑second features, and focusing on interviews with directors, with performers, getting a real feel for what is happening out in the arts community, and perhaps creating more excitement and developing more of an audience for arts and theatre and culture in this community. It could help gather a greater audience from this particular market that isn't currently being marketed to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13117 "On the Street" will focus on what is happening and when and where they should be going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13118 We have a travel diary, of course. As has been mentioned, we are heading into spring break and people will want to go away.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13119 "Flavours of Calgary" ‑‑ wow, there is so much of an ethnic mix in this community. I love eating here. It is just amazing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13120 As I mentioned, gardening, home improvement, art focus, and money focus, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13121 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, if I could add to that ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13122 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can add, but I think you have already covered everything.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13123 I was saying to myself, when you ask the question, you should be ready to have more than a preamble.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13124 MR. ARNISH: I will let you in on a little secret. We are in front of Jimmy Pattison four times a year, and we have to be well prepared for those meetings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13125 There is a quick point that I want to add to the discussion. When we did our market research here in Calgary, the hole was clear for this 45 to 54‑year‑old audience ‑‑ for a radio station to come into the marketplace to fill the void.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13126 We took that information ‑‑ and it stated in the information that we received from John Yerxa Research that fully 21 percent of the adults polled in the demographic that we are after stated that an FM radio station that made a mix of soft vocals from the sixties and seventies, with a bit of a blend from the fifties, would be the station they would listen to the most, while an impressive 32 percent of the people in the same demographic stated that an FM station playing that type of music would in fact be their second choice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13127 The reason I put that on the record this morning is that we then took that information and we looked at the spoken word and said: Okay, what are the spoken word components that are going to work well and complement our music format that is going to work with this audience of 45 to 54 years of age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13129 You indicated that you will be devoting 14 hours and 30 minutes per week to spoken word programming, which is broken down into news, current affairs and ‑‑ we have just reviewed what it will be about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13130 What about the non‑scripted contents, such as announcer talk and banter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13131 Could you confirm to us what your estimated weekly total amount of spoken word programming over and above that 14 hours and 30 minutes will be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13132 MS DOOBAY: Yes. We have a commitment to five hours and 13 minutes of news per week. That does not include interstitial or surveillance information whatsoever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13133 Our total of the 14 hours and 30 minutes is approximately 11.5 percent of the broadcast week. When we add in what we consider to be a very low three minutes per hour of interstitial and surveillance information, we add an additional 6 hours of information packaging, news and spoken word, with news people being included as providing part of that information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13134 THE CHAIRPERSON: In reading the deficiency materials and a reply that you sent, particularly regarding Question No. 4, I noticed that you said that the Pattison Broadcasting Group has vast experience in open line, and I know that you are planning to have an open line program. To that end, you have developed guidelines.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13135 Have these guidelines been filed with the Commission?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13136 MR. SIEMENS: No, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13137 THE CHAIRPERSON: If not, could you provide us with those guidelines?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13138 MR. SIEMENS: Absolutely. When would you like them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13139 THE CHAIRPERSON: When could we expect to receive them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13140 MR. ARNISH: The middle of next week, as soon as we get back home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13141 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That will be fine. Thank you. We will take that as a commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13142 Included in your programming plans is a reference to some non‑locally produced syndicated music programming. Could you tell us the weekly level of station‑produced programming that would be broadcast at your proposed FM station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13143 MR. SIEMENS: Could I ask you to rephrase the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13144 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we read your application, we noticed that there was a reference to syndicated programming. I am not asking you how much of it is syndicated programming, but how much is local content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13145 MR. SIEMENS: In our broadcast schedule, which was filed as part of our application, the only program that I would identify as syndicated is "The Sounds of Sinatra", which runs for two hours on Sunday evening. Everything else is local.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13146 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are not planning to have a programming exchange with your Vancouver station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13147 MR. SIEMENS: There is a program that we do in Vancouver, the "Fred and Jerry's Home Improvement" show, which airs on Saturday mornings, eight o'clock in Vancouver, and it would be nine o'clock in the morning here. That is the only program we would bring from Vancouver, which would be via satellite.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13148 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be live out of Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13149 MR. SIEMENS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13150 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application you have projected your total programming expenses to be $1,034,000 in Year 1, increasing to $1,235,000 in Year 7.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13151 How much of that money is projected to be for your proposed spoken word programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13152 MS DOOBAY: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13153 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application ‑‑ let me start with this. The answer will be sufficient if we use Year 1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13154 You have projected $1,034,000 in programming expenses. My question is, how much of that money is projected to be for your proposed spoken word programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13155 MR. SIEMENS: I don't know that we have broken down the budget in the manner that you are speaking to, but the spoken word programming that we are going to undertake, such as the daily public affairs program "In Touch" ‑‑ current events program is perhaps a better way to describe it. That will be produced by our newsroom, so that would be part of the budget.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13156 The other spoken word programming, "Gardening with Harrington Telford", would not have much of a budget. We haven't come to negotiations with Mr. Telford yet, but I don't imagine that would be an expensive item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13157 I just don't know that the spoken word programming will impact our budget directly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13158 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of that would be for staff producing this programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13159 Obviously, you haven't done the breakdown, so you won't know how much will be staff versus programming that will be contracted out, or whatever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13160 MS DOOBAY: I know that, as far as staff in the newsroom goes, we are committed to four and a half staff people, and that will cover a large component of our spoken word production, the way that we have broken down the week and who is responsible for what.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13161 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many programming staff have you envisioned?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13162 MR. SIEMENS: Mr. Chairman, the programming staff consists of five employees in the newsroom: a news director and morning reader is one person, two full‑time news persons, a full‑time arts co‑ordinator, and a part‑time weekend person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13163 The programming staff would be a program director, two morning show hosts, two full‑time announcers, three part‑time announcers, two writers and one producer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to have any voice‑tracking periods, or will it all be live‑to‑air, except for the syndicated hour and the programming coming from Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13165 MR. SIEMENS: We are committed ‑‑ and I believe that we referred to this in our supplementary brief ‑‑ that we will not voice‑track during the normal broadcast week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13166 THE CHAIRPERSON: How does that compare with your other Alberta radio stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13167 MR. ARNISH: We pride ourselves in the Pattison Broadcast Group to try and have as many hours of local programming as we can possibly achieve through our business plans. That is not to say, in some of our smaller markets, that we don't do voice‑tracking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13168 Let me say to you, Mr. Chairman, that one of the things we really pride ourselves on in our group is the independence of the various radio stations in the markets that we are licensed to serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13169 We certainly give full autonomy. We have our policies, like every other company, but we give full autonomy to the management teams of our various radio divisions or television stations to run their plants properly and within all of the configurations and confines of the licence, and the marketplace as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13170 The one thing that we have not done is gotten into a networking of voice‑tracking various radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13171 In response to your question about what do we do in Alberta, if we were granted a licence here in Calgary, certainly the station in Calgary, SILK FM, would have the most hours of live local programming per day, seven days a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13172 Having said that, in stations in Red Deer and Medicine Hat, for example, we certainly air programming live into the evening, until about ten o'clock at night, in some cases, as well. And certainly live programming on the weekend, as well, throughout the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13173 So we do a lot of live local programming. We try not to use voice‑tracking, unless there is an absolute necessity to do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13174 THE CHAIRPERSON: We know that you already have 10 radio stations in Alberta, and 1 television station. Obviously, you have the potential of 11 newsrooms in all of those locations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13175 Are you contemplating synergies between those newsrooms and the one you would have in Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13176 MR. ARNISH: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13177 From our smallest stations in Drayton Valley and Rocky Mountain House, to all of the other stations that we currently have licensed in Alberta, and to perhaps having a new station in Calgary, we have certainly talked about this, how we could have synergies between all of the stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13178 I would ask Jasmin Doobay to give you her overview of that and how it would work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13179 We are very proud of what we propose to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13180 MS DOOBAY: We have an opportunity in western Canada to allow our voice to be heard more clearly across the country through the information that is produced by the Pattison Broadcast stations from our news departments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13181 We have 11 radio stations and 1 TV station in B.C., and 9 radio stations and 1 TV station in Alberta, and I have had an opportunity to talk to the media market stations in Red Deer, Grand Prairie, Lethbridge and Medicine Hat, to ask how much they are currently sharing information, and whether there was an interest in being granted a Calgary licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13182 To give you a bit of a breakdown of how our newsroom producers ‑‑ there are little newsrooms all around the world, and we will do an interview, if there is a crisis situation ‑‑ perhaps a five‑minute interview, which would create three news stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13183 We can share that information across the country, but it depends on the editor on the other side whether it is picked up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13184 Broadcast News, particularly on a weekend ‑‑ we don't even have a Vancouver voice in British Columbia any more, and we have lost our core Corus newswire service as well. So the only way that we can share is by e‑mail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13185 Fortunately, we have this fabulous technology now to be able to e‑mail MP3s of audio and scripted stories and share between the stations, and also get clarification.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13186 From my experience in British Columbia ‑‑ you probably are familiar with the Okanagan Mountain Park fire. We had 234 homes burned out, and that story went internationally. Our little newsroom of five people in Kelowna was inundated with people wanting information, and we were able to clarify, to share, and to get that information out very quickly to our stations within the Pattison Group, and of course nationally as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13187 We are excited about the possibility of sharing information. We use the term "networking", not technologically, but networking as in we all know each other and we all want to build those relationships.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13188 So rather than having to send our story back to Toronto on a weekend, for example, when there are only 10 stories on their news summary, which are very eastern focused, we have an opportunity to create a western‑focused voice here, and we are really excited about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13189 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to your CTD commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13190 First, I would like to discuss with you your proposal to fund $3.5 million to Save the Music Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13191 As described in your application, in addition to the purchase of instruments, funds may also be directed to mentoring programs for music educators, mentoring programs for students with established Canadian musicians, creating opportunities for students to travel to music events and competitions, bursaries and scholarships for music programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13192 Does the music foundation already exist, or will it be a totally new initiative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13193 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much for that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13194 We are broadcasters, so we are always excited each and every day. You talk to a lot of people who say, "Oh, I have to go to work today," but, with broadcasting, every day is the same, but every day is different, because we are in the broadcasting industry and it is entertainment. We have fun and we do lots of great things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13195 The reason I prefaced my remarks in response to your question, Mr. Chairman, is because the Save the Music Foundation is, in our opinion, a wonderful new initiative for the youth of Canada on a going forward basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13196 It is funny how seeds of time are planted and seeds of ideas are planted when you look at new initiatives, particularly the one we are talking about today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13197 When we were looking at putting our Calgary application together, well over a year ago, amongst the team that is before you this morning, we were trying to come up with a new idea. There have been lots of great ideas over the years, some of them have worked, some of them haven't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13198 I am a tuba player, believe it or not. I have played in a world‑renowned band out of Kamloops called "The Kamloops Rube Band", not "Rude" band, and we have played all over the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13199 I started music in high school back in the sixties as a tuba player. I wanted to be a singer, but I am not like the young fellows over here, "Synergy".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13200 My music teacher said, "You can't even play the trumpet, so I am going to put you on the tuba."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13201 So I have been a tuba player all my life, and I am proud of it. It's the backbone of the band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13202 One day, last February or March, I was talking to Mr. Weafer, and I said, "How is my tuba buddy doing?"
LISTNUM 1 \l 13203 He has two sons that go to school in North Vancouver, one is a saxophone player and one is a tuba player.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13204 He said, "They are doing great," and one thing led to another, and he said, "Rick, you can't believe the program of music, frankly, that is put on at the high school that our sons go to," and where "Synergy" comes from as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13205 I said, "Tell me about it," so he did. He was saying that the trouble with all of these music programs is the fact that there is funding from provincial governments for certain arts and music programs in schools, but there is not enough of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13206 We have described some of the scenarios that parents have to go through, and teachers, in raising money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13207 The long and the short of it is, we started talking about this amongst ourselves, and we got our team involved, and we said, "Maybe there is a great opportunity for us, on a going forward basis as the Pattison Broadcast Group, to come up with this great brand new initiative for the youth of Canada."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13208 In this particular case right now, we are talking about students in the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13209 So the seed was sown through that discussion, and we have moved forward in bringing to you the Save the Music initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13210 I will now turn it over to Jerry Seimens to talk more about it and to give you more finite detail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13211 MR. SIEMENS: It is interesting how, when you start on a project ‑‑ and it has been 15 or 16 months ‑‑ you start with an idea, and then, after a few days of living with it, you say, "That is a pretty good idea," and here we are, a year and a half later, and it has become a passion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13212 I believe so strongly in the Save the Music Foundation. If we really want to develop Canadian talent ‑‑ if we really want to develop Canadian talent ‑‑ we have to start with the kids. That is where the future stars are going to come from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13213 The role of the Save the Music Foundation is not to take the place of government. It is government's job to supply education in the schools. The Save the Music Foundation will enhance what government is already doing, because the funds only go so far.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13214 We heard from these young lads a moment ago, "Synergy". Obviously they have talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13215 I am going to ask Frank Lee to comment on this in a moment, because he knows these boys very well, and he knows the music education system really well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13216 "Synergy" was asked to represent Canada twice internationally, once in Japan and once in Belgium. Neither time could they go because there was no money. The families can only raise so much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13217 When you think about that sort of thing and what would the Save the Music Foundation do, that is the sort of thing we are talking about ‑‑ recognizing the cream of the crop, the best of the best, and saying, "What can we do to get these young people to the next level of performance."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13218 I think the analogy was made earlier that if they were hockey players, they would go into the western hockey league, and they would either make it or they wouldn't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13219 That is why we think this is important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13220 Even if they don't go on to become professional musicians, the fact is that music students make better citizens, and that has been documented over and over.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13221 Frank, maybe you could take a moment and talk about what additional funding might mean to groups like "Synergy" and other jazz and small bands that you work with.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13222 MR. LEE: Like Jerry said, there are 12 performing groups at the school, and they have been offered opportunities to travel abroad and compete and perform at the international level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13223 Unfortunately, we had to pass on some of those opportunities due to a lack of funds. Most recently was the Belgium trip last year, the Europe contest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13224 This past year we actually accepted an invitation to an international festival in Powell River. We were lucky enough that it was in our backyard and we could go to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13225 These students are constantly given opportunities to grow and develop, and to be inspired. I remember, when this program started seven years ago ‑‑ it was through the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival that this program received that inspiration, that development, and that mentorship, not only for the students, but for myself as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13226 It is really important that these students see what their peers are doing at their age level, as well as professionals, so that they have something to strive for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13227 These funds would be instrumental in helping in the development of Canadian youth talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Has the foundation been created?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13229 MR. ARNISH: We are working on that right now, as we speak. We are in the process of forming a society, and we are going through all of the necessary legal work to do that as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13230 The foundation, at the end of the day, will have a board of directors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13231 We are committed to this. I am sure you can feel the passion in my voice, and in Jerry's, as well as our team. This is not a commitment just for the short or long term, and I would even say seven years. We want to commit to this, as a broadcast group, into infinity, really.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13232 We have an application before you currently for the acquisition of Island Radio. We have taken some of the funds related to that acquisition and have put them toward the Save the Music Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13233 In reality, it is already happening. It has started. We just want to ‑‑ "Here, take this to the next big level."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13234 That is why, through Mr. Lee's association with the Rocky Mountain Music Festival, we brought them on board and got into a full discussion with them to say, "Okay, we have this wonderful idea, and we want to put a significant amount of money toward it. What can we do with the money to ensure that it goes where we want it to go."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13235 Jerry, I would ask you to comment on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13236 MR. SIEMENS: First of all, our relationship with the Rocky Mountain Music Festival is very healthy. The Pattison Broadcast Group is the title sponsor of the festival this year, and Mr. Connell will be here to speak to you later in the week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13237 The fundamental thing about the Save the Music Foundation is that it is mentoring, it is covering travel costs, it is providing competition at a very keen level for our young people, so that they can see where they are at in their development compared to other people in other parts of the two western provinces, and hopefully beyond, as the company grows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13238 THE CHAIRPERSON: What you are telling me is that this is a new initiative, which you will be continuing over the years. You will continue to invest while the company is growing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13239 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13240 As I said earlier, we are looking at this beyond seven years, because we are in the business of broadcasting for the long haul.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13241 For example, in our application that was filed with the Commission regarding Grand Prairie, we put significant funds into the Save the Music Foundation there, as well, and we are looking for other opportunities to grow our company right across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13242 With that, if we are fortunate enough to receive licences or acquire other properties, we will definitely direct a lot of money toward this new initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13243 THE CHAIRPERSON: You just said that you are on the verge of creating the foundation, and that you will have a board of directors. Will the members of the board of directors be independent from the Pattison Group?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13244 MR. ARNISH: We are really early into that. The majority of the board members would be independent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13245 We have talked to Mr. Connell about that, through the Rocky Mountain Music Festival Society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13246 Some of the members of the board would be from the Pattison Broadcast Group, as well, so that we have an understanding of where the money will be directed and spent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13247 But the society board would be the ones that would be charged with making sure the funds are allocated accordingly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13248 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you, in your own mind, already established a breakdown of how that half a million dollars a year will be directed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13249 MR. ARNISH: We haven't. We have talked about it. It is in the early stages in discussions with people like Mr. Connell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13250 We haven't decided yet where that is going to go, but I think you gather, Mr. Chairman, from our discussions about it this morning, that it will go to helping the best of the best get the next step or leg up to become better, and perhaps even become a professional musician, or a professional group, whatever the case may be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13251 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will any of the money that you will be directing to the foundation be for the administration of the foundation, or will all the money that you direct to the foundation go to the various programs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13252 MR. SIEMENS: We have identified in our application a Canadian talent co‑ordinator, and that person's salary would come out of the Save the Music Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13253 Other than that, there are no other administrative costs tied to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13254 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, in a way, he will be the manager of the foundation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13255 MR. SIEMENS: This person will be a very busy person, when they start to liaise with about 3,000 music educators across B.C. and Alberta, plus the other Canadian talent initiatives that we have identified in our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13256 I should mention, too, because I think it is an important point, the number of letters that we got from music educators here in the City of Calgary and throughout Alberta and B.C. We were surprised how far away some of them came from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13257 But once word got out that we were considering this, the music educators certainly jumped to the point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13258 THE CHAIRPERSON: He may find that half a million dollars is not a big amount.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13259 MR. SIEMENS: When Mr. Connell gets here later this week, he will tell you that he has already had people asking him how they can be a part of this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13260 So there is certainly excitement growing throughout the two western provinces.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13262 Obviously, as you said, the money will be directed to students in both Alberta and B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13263 Have you established a split between Alberta and B.C.?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13264 MR. SIEMENS: No. I think the way we envision it working is that students or educators who wish to take advantage of the foundation will make a written application. Those applications will be reviewed by the board of directors, and the money will be allocated to what the board decides is the right thing to do. All of it will be going to Canadian Talent Development, but, no, there has been no split set out as such.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13265 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now we will move to the "Best of the West" competition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13266 Could you tell us more about the annual funding for this project?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13267 MR. SIEMENS: Yes. Thank you for the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13268 The "Best of the West" will begin with regional competitions in northern, central and southern Alberta, and also northern, central and southern British Columbia. We envision one‑day competitions in those regions where groups, bands, a cappella choirs, whatever, will have made application to the Save the Music Foundation, and they will be invited to compete.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13269 We estimate that the cost of staging a one‑day competition will be in the range of about $15,000, by the time we pay for judges and renting the site and the sound technicians and everything else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13270 We estimate that the total budget for the "Best of the West", from start to finish, will be about $100,000 annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13271 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also say that a project manager will be retained to oversee the implementation of "Best of the West". I suppose it would be the same CTD co‑ordinator who will be looking after the Foundation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13272 MR. SIEMENS: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there an associated annual salary for this manager?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13274 If so, where is it earmarked in your CTD budget?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13275 MR. SIEMENS: The figure that we mentioned in the supplementary brief is $80,000, and that would be part of the half a million dollars annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13276 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will go to the foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13277 MR. SIEMENS: The half a million dollars goes to that foundation and, of that, $80,000 will go to the co‑ordinator.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13278 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you describe the duties and the responsibilities that the manager will have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13279 MR. SIEMENS: Surely. That person will be responsible, as we mentioned a few minutes ago, for liaising with music educators throughout Alberta and B.C.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13280 The person will be responsible for co‑ordinating the "Best of the West" competitions, and also they will have the responsibility of co‑ordinating the SILK Series, and the SILK Series ‑ Road Version.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13281 He is going to be a busy person.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will he have other duties at the radio station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13283 MR. SIEMENS: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously, he will be managing almost all of your CTD programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13285 MR. SIEMENS: He or she will certainly be influential in the CTD programming, but, again, we will have the board of directors for the Save the Music Foundation, which will have the final say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13286 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, if I could interrupt ‑‑ and I apologize ‑‑ one of our panel members has taken ill this afternoon, and I was wondering if we could take a moment to allow Mr. Davis to excuse himself from the room.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13287 MR. DAVIS: I have had a sinus infection for two days. As my father says, I am enjoying poor health.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13288 Rick, it has passed. I think the medication is starting to work, so I will be fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13289 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Davis will be fine. I am sorry for the interruption.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13290 MR. DAVIS: I will be fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13291 THE CHAIRPERSON: We could break now and resume after lunch, or we could continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13292 You would prefer that we continue?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13293 MR. ARNISH: If that is okay by you, sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13294 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13295 I am asking you, because I have already answered myself.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13296 We will now look at your economic application and your financials.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13297 In section 4.4 of your application, where you discuss assumptions applied to financial projections, you state that revenues have been projected by creating an index of revenue performance against the station's share of hours tuned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13298 Would you please provide us with an example of how you created this index, and how it is used in deriving projected revenues from projected audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13299 MR. ARNISH: I will start, and then I will have Mr. Davis and Ms McKechnie answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13300 When we looked at the market in Calgary after we had done our research, we certainly kept in mind what was going on in the marketplace, as well, and what the growth has been over the last number of years, and what the projected growth will be through 2012, for example, where the market is estimated to be in the 100 million range.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13301 When we are looking at the estimates of revenue and the expense side of the business, as well, our group certainly, for many, many, many years, has been realistic and somewhat conservative about business plans.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13302 Dealing with Mr. Pattison and the Pattison Group, we certainly have opportunities to review our business plans four times a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13303 I am a person who always believes that if you take care of the pennies, the dollar will take care of itself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13304 When we looked at everything related to our application in Calgary, we wanted to be realistic. We knew that we would be coming into the marketplace with a very unique format, as well as the fact that we would be a standalone station in the market against other major competitors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13305 We looked at our overall picture with that thought in mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13306 With that, I will turn it over to Bruce.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13307 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, we want to go into some detail now about how we arrived at our initial market share and how we see the market share growing toward maturity of the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13308 To establish this, we used John Yerxa Research, and I would ask John to cover how we arrived at the initial shares.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13309 MR. YERXA: In a nutshell, what we did was, my research director took the core percentages within each of the various music groups that made up the format and, upon combining these, was able to calculate the primary and secondary impact, repatriation, things of that nature.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13310 In a nutshell, we presented a maximum potential share, once this station develops over a period of time, of around 9.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13311 Now, I can provide you with the math if you wish, but we gave the 9 share as a final end result, if everything is done well over a period of time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13312 I will let you take it from there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13313 MS McKECHNIE: Mr. Chairman, working that logic or methodology backward from the 9 share, we looked at our inaugural year, which is without BBM ratings, without history with the listeners, and with it being a standalone, coming into an established market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13314 We, therefore, reduced that potential 9 share by about two‑thirds, to start it at 3, resulting in a 9 share over our term of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13315 MR. DAVIS: If I could continue with that thought, now that we have established a 3 share going in, we know that the market is planned between a $55 and $60 cost per point, which, doing the math, would yield about a $28 to $30 unit rate per 30.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13316 We know going in that we can realistically sell about 50 percent of the available inventory at that unit rate, and that brings us into about $1.4 million or $1.5 million with those calculations, which are pretty standard in radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13318 You have characterized your audience and financial projections in the early years of your projections as being conservative in nature. In fact, you are not projecting to generate a profit until Year 5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13319 Can you explain why you have chosen to adopt this approach, given the positive outlook of the Calgary economy and the results of your demand study, which suggest an opportunity to address the needs of an under‑served segment of the Calgary radio audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13320 MR. ARNISH: I think I would echo what I said a few moments ago. When we are looking at business plans for the entire Jim Pattison Broadcast Group, as a group and as individual stations and individual markets, we are realistic and conservative with our approach to our financial well‑being.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13321 Again, coming into Calgary, we have had some members of our panel work in the Calgary market. It would be our second major market station, but it would be an independent station, and with the startup of that, against some very formidable competitors in this marketplace ‑‑ and there are some great broadcasters that live and work in Calgary ‑‑ we know that our job is cut out for us to ensure, at the end of the day, that we have a viable radio station that employs great staff, that we pay them well, and that we serve the market as we have committed to at this hearing with the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13322 With that, we decided again ‑‑ and we do this all the time. We are realistic and conservative about our business plans. We looked at the first three or four years as being tough slugging, as we get the station up and running and get it established, get market share, and then be able to go out into the advertising market and be able to sell this product, which we feel very confident we will be able to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13323 As you can see with our projections leading up to Year 7, it gets much more positive in the last three or four years of the seven‑year period. And we feel very strong about our projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Am I hearing from you that it is easier to attend your quarterly meetings, saying, "We have done better" ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13325 MR. ARNISH: Jimmy always says, "It's better to overachieve than to underachieve."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13326 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am coming to my very last question, and it has to do with the technical side of the operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13327 In the event that the frequency proposed as your first choice is not available, have you considered the use of another frequency?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13328 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, we hadn't. When we dealt with our consulting engineers, D.E.M. Allen, they came to us like other applicants in front of you and said, "The frequency we are recommending for you for Calgary is this format."
LISTNUM 1 \l 13329 We understand that there are a couple of other frequencies available here. I don't know whether there is confusion in the room about the frequencies or not, but Mr. Gord Henke of D.E.M. Allen is here, and he is willing to come forward right now and talk about that, if you wish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13330 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13331 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Henke, would you come forward to discuss this issue, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13332 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the record, obviously there are, from what we have been able to gather, a few frequencies available in the market. Some are better than others. Some seem to have an impairment. We have heard about NavCan issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13333 For the record, could you tell us what we should know?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13334 MR. HENKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair; and Rick, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13335 I would like to go back to give a bit of history of the application process and go through all of the frequencies that are potentially available in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13336 Through the application process there were actually five frequencies identified as potential in the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13337 Channel 212, which is 90.3, the Pattison application, has been identified. It is clear. It is capable of operating 100 kilowatts, non‑directional.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13338 The second frequency which has been applied for is Channel 225, which is 92.9 Mhz. It is a Calgary allotment in the Industry Canada Allotment Plan. It is available at a full 100 kilowatts, non‑directional.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13339 The third frequency that is available in this market ‑‑ and all of these three have passed through Industry Canada in terms of: They operate. We know that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13340 The third frequency is Channel 262, which is 100.3. It is identified by one of the other applicants in this hearing. It is available, again, at a full 100 kilowatts, but it requires a directional antenna pattern to provide protection to a number of other stations in adjacent markets to Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13341 There are two other frequencies that were identified during the application process, which were Channel 283, which is 104.5, and Channel 291‑B, which is 106.1.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13342 Both of those frequencies, if you look at the frequencies themselves, disregarding a number of other factors, work in the Calgary market, but both of them have been identified by NavCanada as having potential problems with interference to aircraft navigation systems.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13343 That doesn't mean they can't be used, it only means that they have either limited power ‑‑ the power has to be kept down below a certain limit ‑‑ or they are only available for use at very specific antenna sites.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13344 So there are three full‑power stations that could have frequencies in this market, and several others that could possibly work at lower powers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Henke. That clears the situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13346 We needed that information for the record. Staff of the CRTC knew of the situation, but it had to be registered somewhere, and that is why we have kept asking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13347 Those who are coming after you, they won't be asked the question, because we now have the information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13348 Thank you very much, Mr. Henke.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13349 MR. HENKE: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13350 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will be my very last question, before asking Helen Del Val if she has a question for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13351 If the Commission were to grant more than one licence, which one of the other applicants would have a negative effect on your business plan, and why?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13352 MR. ARNISH: I will have Jerry jump in on this, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13353 Because we are going after an older demographic of 45 to 54‑year‑old adults in Calgary, and there is a clear hole in the market for a station like ours, SILK FM, playing music of the sixties and seventies, certainly the applicants that you heard yesterday, and even this morning, could have an effect on us if we and they were also granted a licence here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13354 We certainly know that there is a hole for our format, for a higher‑end demographic, and there would be less damage to us if the Commission decided to award an additional licence, or perhaps three, if that was the case, to a format that would be perhaps modern rock, or album‑oriented rock, or even a specialty licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13355 Jerry, would you like to comment on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13356 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you, Rick. I don't know that I can add much, but if there is to be more than one licence granted, I think it would probably make the most sense to have one of those new applications approved being one that serves a younger demographic and one that supports an older demographic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13358 Madam Del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13359 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: You have probably anticipated this question on your revenue projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13360 I know you start quite low, but you are the highest, at 29 percent annual average growth. And I see that you are declining, which is reasonable, but even by Years 6 and 7 you are projecting 22 percent and 25 percent, respectively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13361 Would you care to comment on whether that is realistic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13362 MR. DAVIS: Sure, I would love to comment on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13363 Remember, the research that we did showed that the potential at maturity of the radio station would be a 9 share. If you use all of the math that we used, that would yield the numbers we say they are going to, given that the Calgary market will grow to over 100 million in the next few years, and the demographic that we are in is also one of the fastest growing demographics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13364 Does that answer your question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13365 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13366 Do you think that the other applicants are coming in too low on their revenue projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13367 MR. DAVIS: I can't speak to their research. Again, we are talking about looking toward the same demographic, but completely different formats and different genres and different years that they are talking about in music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13368 We are separated that way, so each of the applications is distinct. I wouldn't want to comment on how they came to their numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13369 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: I have one more question in intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13370 I don't know whether you are aware of this one. This is Intervention 445. They made a comment on page 6 of their intervention on the Save the Music Foundation and how the money could possibly be better spent on an already established outfit, such as the CARAS MusicCan program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13371 Do you have any comment on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13372 MR. ARNISH: I guess in retort to them, in respect to that organization, I guess FACTOR and Musicaction and the Starmaker Fund, which is through the CAB, could have all commented on our Save the Music initiative as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13373 I guess my response to them, and others, is that, again, in our opinion, this is a wonderful, new, great Canadian initiative that is directed solely toward our youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13374 I would like Angela Kelman to give her perspective on this as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13375 MS KELMAN: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13376 Over the years I have personally benefited with Farmer's Daughter and my own recording projects from entities like FACTOR, CARAS, and the Starmaker Fund, for which I am grateful, but they came when I was already an established artist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13377 The Save the Music Foundation is about to give kids who have got what it takes to be in this industry a leg up, to ensure that future recording artists make it. It gives them a leg up to get them excited about it and continue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13378 I have yet to see any kind of program at the entry level, so to speak, even though these kids are extremely talented, that would provide everything they need to get to the places.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13379 CARAS and FACTOR are wonderful, wonderful entities, but we need to start a little sooner to get these kids to that level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13380 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13381 MR. SIEMENS: I would echo what Angela has just said. The associations you mentioned, Commissioner Del Val, do good work. There is no question about that, but if you are a 35‑year‑old Canadian artist, we are really not developing talent at that point, we are enhancing a career.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13382 That's good. That's fine. But I come back to my earlier comment. If we want to develop Canadian talent ‑‑ and I think that is the objective ‑‑ we have to start with the youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13383 MR. ARNISH: To tag on to the two comments here, I might put on my Canadian unity hat. Yes, I am from western Canada, but I am a proud Canadian, and I think for us to be able to fund youth groups, musicians, artists, jazz bands, choirs ‑‑ you name it ‑‑ high school bands ‑‑ to travel across this country ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13384 They are having problems, as we all know. We are all parents, grandparents; we have nieces and nephews who are in music programs in schools across this country. They are all having trouble getting funding to do just that, to travel to events in Quebec, Ontario or the Maritimes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13385 Hopefully, through this foundation ‑‑ one of the cornerstones of the foundation will be to give them money to be able to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13386 I can't think of a better thing for Canadian unity than having youth talking with youth ‑‑ exchanging ideas, getting to know each other, getting to know a perspective from eastern Canada, central Canada, western Canada, and the north as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13387 I think that our foundation, this initiative, will be great for Canada and great for the youth of our nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13388 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13389 Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your last question will be coming from legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13391 MS BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13392 I have one question, which is related to the commitment you have made of $1.4 million for employment equity initiatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13393 In your presentation this morning you mentioned that it would be $700,000 for CWC's Radio Career Accelerator Program, and $700,000 to the two other initiatives, being the strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis Association and the Alberta College of Art and Design, and funding for the program at SAIT.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13394 Could you comment on the possibility of the Commission imposing that commitment as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13395 MR. ARNISH: If the Commission did so, we would certainly accept that as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13396 MS BENNETT: Thank you. That was my only question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13397 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Arnish and Mr. Siemens, before we break, in your own words, could you, in no more than five minutes, give us the reasons ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13398 I think you have already given us a lot of reasons.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 13399 I am allowing you to wrap up and tell us why the Commission should entertain your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13400 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I will try to be brief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13401 Why Pattison?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13402 We believe that the granting of a new FM station in Calgary, as we have proposed, will meet the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, as well as contributing to the objectives that the Commission outlined in its commercial radio policy of 1998.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13403 I have seven brief points to make in this regard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13404 First, the proposed station will add a new and distinctive format to the Calgary radio market. The new SILK FM would correct a demographic imbalance in the Calgary market by targeting the mature listener in the 35 to 64‑year‑old and 45‑plus demographics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13405 Further, we would accomplish that goal without duplicating music currently being exposed on any Calgary station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13406 Second, the new SILK FM would provide a platform for a wider range of Canadian artists whose music is not being heard on Calgary radio. Unique to the Calgary version of the soft vocals format will be the emphasis on local and national artists singing the standards. Canadian artists such as Armi Grano, Angela Kelman, Matt Dusk, Tammy Weiss, Robert Fine and others are among the many Canadian acts that have recorded music compatible with this format. For the most part, these are selections that are not receiving airplay anywhere else on the dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13407 Third, there will be a comprehensive package of direct benefits that will total $7 million. This figure includes $5.6 million in direct Canadian talent initiatives, $1.4 million in employment equity projects, plus an additional $2.38 million in indirect expenditures, for a total benefits package of $9,380,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13408 The Canadian talent initiatives are well thought out and are designed to have an immediate and positive effect in southern Alberta and throughout the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13409 They include $500,000 annually for the Pattison Broadcast Group's Save the Music Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13410 The Applicant will also establish the SILK Series and the SILK Series ‑ Road Version, which will be of particular benefit to local southern Alberta musicians and recording artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13411 Additionally, there are third party endowments to the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra and the Alberta Recording Industry Association.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13412 Fourth, the new SILK FM will provide a new emphasis on and exposure for the arts scene in Calgary. Our full‑time arts and culture editor will provide coverage of the arts and cultural scene in Calgary, with news, reviews, and other information on gallery openings, new theatre offerings, as well as upcoming concerts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13413 Fifth, the Pattison Broadcast Group has proposed four employment equity initiatives that will enhance career opportunities for members of all four designated groups. They include:
LISTNUM 1 \l 13414 $350,000 for the continuation of the CWC Radio Career Accelerator Program for Women, which will ensure the long‑term survival of this CWC program, which is currently out of funding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13415 $350,000 for the development of a new Career Accelerator Program for members of the other designated groups ‑‑ aboriginal persons, visual minorities, and persons with disabilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13416 Additionally, we have proposed $350,000 for a joint strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis Association and the Alberta College of Arts and Design.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13417 Plus, the new SILK FM will commit $350,000 over the term of the licence for the development of the Broadcast Leadership Bootcamp, in conjunction with the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13418 Employment equity initiatives total $1.4 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13419 Sixth, the Calgary market is a strong radio market. The addition of SILK FM will have little impact on the existing FM stations in the market. The diverse nature of the format is such that it will not duplicate any FM station in the market, and will have little impact on any one station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13420 We expect that a significant amount of tuning will come from increased listening by people who cannot afford to find this kind of music on the Calgary dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13421 Seventh, 11 of the 13 commercial licences in this market are controlled by eastern‑based broadcasters. In our opinion, to truly add a diverse point to the market is critical to a broadcast group based in western Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13422 For these reasons, we submit that the Applicant which best meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, and the Applicant which is most appropriate to a licence in Calgary, is the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13423 I really want to thank our great young talent "Synergy" for appearing today in front of you here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13424 We thank you, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission Staff, for allowing us the opportunity to appear before you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Arnish, and thanks to your team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13426 We will adjourn until two o'clock, and we will start with the next application at that time.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1255 /
Suspension à 1255
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1400 /
Reprise à 1400
LISTNUM 1 \l 13427 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13428 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13429 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13430 We will now proceed to Item 7 on the agenda, which is an application by Raman Sivia, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated as a co‑operative, for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13431 The new station would operate on Frequency 92.9 Mhz, Channel 225‑C1, with an effective radiated power of 50,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 298.5 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13432 Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Raman Sivia. Mr. Sivia will introduce his colleagues, and he will then have 20 minutes for the presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 13433 MR. SIVIA: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, my name is Raman Sivia. I am the Executive Vice President of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13434 Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce our panel members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13435 On my right is our legal counsel, Mark Lewis, a partner in the firm of Lewis Birnberg Hanet, LLP.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13436 To his right is Baljinder S. Tamber, who will be CEO of this radio company. Mr. Tamber is CEO of Watan Media Group and Radio, which is a multimedia company serving the ethnic community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13437 On the far right is Ms Asmita, a broadcast and print journalist who has recently moved to Calgary from India. She is fluent in five languages, but today she will speak in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13438 If licensed, we expect that Ms Asmita will be the news and current affairs host of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13439 To my immediate left is Mr. Gurbhalinder Sandhu, who is the publisher and editor‑in‑chief of Des Pardes Times, the newspaper which serves the South Asian community of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13440 Mr. Sandhu twice headed the Canadian media delegation on government trade missions to India in 2003, on which he accompanied the premier, the prime minister and the Team Canada mission to India.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13441 In the same year, he accompanied the premier of Alberta on a mission to India.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13442 Mr. Sandhu has firsthand knowledge of the business community in Calgary and can speak to the collaborative efforts which are proposed between the newspaper and the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13443 To my far left is Ms Manjot Sandhu, who is the co‑publisher, in charge of sales, for the Des Pardes Times Business Directory. She will provide comments concerning advertising opportunities for the new radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13444 Seated in the row behind me is Andrew Ilnycky, who operates a natural gas, pipeline, and energy consulting company located in Calgary. He is a prominent community leader in the Urkranian community, and appears with us today as a member of our proposed advisory board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13445 To his left ‑‑ I guess that Mr. Harmeet Sidhu is not here yet, but he will be joining us shortly. He operates an insurance company. He is a prominent community leader. He has agreed to participate as an advisory board member of the radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13446 Through his business activities in the community, he can provide the Commission with some insight regarding immigration patterns from South Asia in this part of Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13447 Seated to Mr. Sidhu's left is Mr. Harnarayan Singh, who is a local reporter for a local broadcaster in Calgary, and a documentary film producer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13448 Mr. Singh is active in the Sikh community with local youth groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13449 If licensed, we would expect that Mr. Singh would be a news reporter for the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13450 Seated to the right of Mr. Ilnycky will be Mr. Kim Ban. He will be joining us shortly. He is the publisher of Viet Nam Thoi Bao Calgary, an informative magazine which serves the Vietnamese community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13451 Mr. Kim will be the host of programming for the Vietnamese community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13452 To his right is seated Ms Sen Hong, who is also associated with Viet Name Thoi Bao Calgary, who will also speak to the growth of the community and advertisement opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13453 We will now begin our presentation. Baljinder Tamber will clarify the company's goal and provide a greater understanding of what we hope to accomplish with this FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13454 MR. TAMBER: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, good afternoon. I have been an active member of the community since immigrating from India in 1980. I lived in B.C. for six years before moving to Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13455 This land has provided me and my family with so many opportunities that I had to give back to the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13456 Since I have been here, I have made it my responsibility to get involved and to integrate with the community. This has been my personality and nature.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13457 Radio stations, such as the one we have proposed, will help new immigrants to become aware of activities and programs available to them, as well as providing them with entertainment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13458 My biggest achievement would have to be starting Sikh Sports Club. This club started with 50 kids, and has now grown to 800. It is a tremendous accomplishment for our club.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13459 All of my initiatives have had one thing in common: to provide the ethnic community with information, knowledge, understanding and possibilities so that they can become responsible members of the community in which they reside.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13460 The application provides a high level of service to the South Asian community and other ethnic communities of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13461 It is financially prudent, and we have set realistic and achievable financial and service goals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13462 This community is ready to receive local programming of relevance to their community, rather than SCMO rebroadcasts originating on a radio station in the U.S.A.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13463 The high level of local service that we proposed is possible due to initiatives with allied media. Let me explain.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13464 In Toronto, we have successfully operated an SCMO service to the Punjabi community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13465 We also provide programming on a daily basis on CIUT‑FM to the Greater Toronto Area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13466 I host and market advertisement for a program telecast nationally on the Vision TV network.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13467 We also have the ability to promote the new radio station on our TV telecasts, our print publications and our web services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13468 We are experienced producers of open‑line programs, music programs, and have been dedicated to the promotion of Canadian performers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13469 As we currently work with the Canadian broadcasting system, we are fully aware of and comply with the CRTC regulations and broadcast standards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13470 We are in the process of launching a Category 2 service of VTV to the South Asian community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13471 Our company prints a weekly newspaper for the Punjabi community in Toronto, as you will shortly hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13472 We are affiliated with Des Pardes Times in Calgary. We are currently working extensively on the ground here in Calgary with concert and entertainment promoters, advertisers and local businesses. It is all about networking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13473 Our company has increasingly grown and we are always looking for interesting ways in which to provide ethnic services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13474 In April 2006 we will launch a new entertainment magazine. This magazine will be published in Canada and distributed here and in the U.S.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13475 Additional staff and support are being set up in India. Editorial content will also be utilized for the proposed Calgary FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13476 Through our media group, we have a track record in web publishing. We provide internet and web services targeted to young South Asians in Canada, with a focus on entertainment and information regarding campus events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13477 We also do live screening of community events on the web.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13478 Our web publishing skills will be useful for the promotion of the new radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13479 We also have a long distance resale company. This provides the radio station with low‑cost transmission of news and sports, for example, from India, England, the U.S.A. and other countries.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13480 This will benefit our program producers in obtaining spoken word content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13481 With all of these business relationships, we have a well established network of news and information sources here in Canada, in Alberta, and overseas, as well as sales and promotional opportunities which have been put in place for the new Calgary FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13482 In Toronto, we operate a successful SCMO service in what is probably the most competitive South Asian market outside India. So we are well aware of the market potential and the advertising base for a new radio station to serve Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13483 We also understand the economics of ethnic broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13484 MR. SIVIA: We acknowledge that there is no independent research study filed with our application. Given that ethnic radio in the community is not currently rated by BBM, there is no base by which to determine the existing audience. Surveying communities that are not fluent in English poses a very large barrier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13485 We took another approach because we are active in this community through other media activities. With our outreach towards ethnic communities, we were able to determine that there is market demand for ethnic programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13486 We also analyzed the programming schedules of local stations and determined the format hole.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13487 We are working with existing strategic production partners and media partners, who were able to determine whether, one, ethnic‑owned businesses were prepared to advertise on a new ethnic FM station, and two, whether existing advertisers would increase their advertising budgets now spent with the ethnic print media in order to advertise on a new radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13488 We learned that the answer to both questions was yes. Although we did not have independent research, we had a grassroot confirmation directly from the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13489 The Commission has received several hundred letters from Calgary business owners who intend to support the programming of the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13490 There is a third thing that we want to highlight. We broadcast to the ethnic community via SCMO specialty television, on the internet, via airtime on conventional FM, and through print media in Toronto across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13491 We are familiar with the potential advertising revenue in South Asian and other ethnic communities. Our advertising rates, our inventory sell‑out rates, and our revenue forecasts are consistent with the experience that we have had in very competitive markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13492 We have assumed that you would ask us whether the revenue projections are logical, achievable and sustainable in Calgary. We believe that they are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13493 We have partnered with the other print media that serves the ethnic community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13494 We are very small compared to English‑language media companies, but we already play a major role in serving the ethnic community across Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13495 Our company motto has always been to connect ethnic communities and provide them with a positive outlet, a "voice in a distinct land".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13496 Looking at the market of Calgary and the ethnic community breakdown, as well as other existing services, we determined that programming can be provided in 14 languages, targeting 10 different ethnic groups, representing the make‑up of the under‑served Calgary community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13497 Mr. Sandhu will provide some insight concerning the advertising revenue of South Asian programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13498 MR. SANDHU: I have worked with Raman Sivia and Baljinder Tamber on a number of projects. In fact, I had a newspaper in Toronto, but now focus on Alberta and California. I foresaw more opportunities to build a business in this province because of the rapid expansion of South Asian communities across Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13499 We collaborate with a number of resources, including foreign journalists, who contribute news articles to each of our newspapers and TV and radio programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13500 As a journalist, I can tell you that there is a lot happening in this community, and I think that a collaboration between Des Pardes Times and the new radio station makes a great deal of sense.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13501 We have reporters in Calgary, Edmonton, and in the oil sands community of Fort McMurray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13502 Business coverage of the oil industry is important to our community. Listeners will benefit from the radio station's news and information coverage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13503 Calgary is a dynamic community. The biggest South Asian music and entertainment stars have made Calgary a destination on their world tours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13504 We have promoted Canadian musical events in Calgary many times. We are currently working in association with the applicants and their new Category 2 digital channel VTV in the promotion of concerts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13505 There are many cultural activities in this community, and a new radio station could play a major role in the promotion and coverage of those events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13506 MS SANDHU: Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, I am the co‑publisher of Des Pardes Times business pages, and have been involved in the sale of advertising in Calgary since the publication's inception.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13507 Perhaps you can't imagine this, but I am rather unique. I am a woman from a traditional society selling advertising, but most of the advertising buyers are men. That, in itself, is a very big challenge.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13508 I was pleasantly surprised when we launched our directory in Calgary that over 300 businesses bought advertising within a three‑month period.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13509 Today, more than 400 businesses advertise to the South Asian community with us. Our advertising clients span many different types of businesses and services, including medical professionals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13510 Our clients from our first edition continue to purchase ads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13511 From our discussions with our advertisers, I know that there is a large base who would commit to advertising on the new station to reach their target audience on a daily basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13512 MR. TAMBER: We now want to provide a brief insight into the Calgary market, proposed programming, the advisory board, and the CTD initiatives, all crucial elements in running this station, ensuring quality, and outlining community involvement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13513 MR. SIVIA: Running an FM station and staying in tune with community needs is extremely necessary. Ethnic services become crucial for ethnic communities, especially for new immigrants, since most are not fluent in the English language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13514 We have proposed a balance of spoken word and music programming to serve the various community groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13515 As you have heard this week, the Calgary economy is booming, which can be seen from the current job market. This job market has attracted ethnic minorities, which has increased the ethnic population of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13516 If you look at the 1996 census, compared to 2001, the statistics show a 15.4 percent increase in the population. The key indicators suggest that the population continues to grow at a rate higher than previous levels.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13517 Calgary now reflects major Canadian cities where the visible minority population exceeds 25 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13518 The City of Calgary recently published data that indicate that 80,000 new jobs will be generated in the next five years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13519 The city projects that the visible minority population will grow significantly, due to immigration from other countries and the relocation of people from other Canadian communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13520 For us to stay in touch with the community and be on top of their needs, we will have an advisory board. The committee will have a mandate to ensure that our station is meeting the needs of the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13521 Several seats on the board will be filled by representatives of the Ukrainian and South Asian communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13522 We would anticipate that the smaller ethnic groups that we serve would have at least two representatives on a rotating basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13523 We plan to have the board meet at least quarterly, and will strive to have a gender balance and a youth representative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13524 Our general manager of the station and program director will attend the advisory board meetings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13525 With respect to our CTD proposal, we will provide direct benefits to young talent in Calgary, which will allow us to connect directly to the communities we serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13526 We have three distinct proposals, which I will quickly touch upon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13527 The first one is a talent contest in conjunction with Watan Music Academy. It will be an annual talent show and contest that will be conducted in Calgary to seek out and promote local talent. Judges will be chosen from Calgary, and the talent show contestants will be chosen by the Watan Music Academy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13528 The winner, who may be of any nationality, will be given the chance to record his or her own music CD, which will be released by the FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13529 We will work with the other ethnic stations throughout Canada and the U.S. to obtain airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13530 The winner will be given full copyrights to the recording.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13531 We will also work with the record company to assist in the commercial distribution of the recordings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13532 Secondly, we will provide a scholarship. The station will provide a $1,000 scholarship, each, to five students studying excellence in the media or arts field. We intend to establish strong relationships with the University of Calgary and SAIT. We hope that this will lead to students from multicultural backgrounds entering the broadcast industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13533 Lastly, we acknowledge the hard work that it takes to produce and record a CD. Free promotion and advertising will be provided to any local artist who produces a CD and would like to promote their CD on the air. We will even use other mediums, including print, specialty TV and our website to promote and help them in any way possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13534 This CTD plan follows our company motto of promoting local talent and a positive outlet for youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13535 MR. TAMBER: Now we will address the key programming components of the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13536 Our goal is to encourage families to listen to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13537 In our South Asian programming blocks, we will provide a variety of music programs for different age groups, including contemporary music and Bollywood hits, which will attract a younger audience, and traditional music, which will appeal to an older audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13538 Many newly arrived immigrants do not have a family support structure. Having access to information about Canada and the social services available in Calgary are of prime importance in order for people to succeed in this community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13539 We have had great success in our programs to engage community leaders and people from social agencies to appear on phone‑in shows on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13540 It has been our experience that women want access to information concerning social agencies that can deal with such matters as domestic violence, ESL training, parenting and pursuing job opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13541 We will provide spoken word programming that will put our listeners in touch with experts and community leaders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13542 Our schedule, which was filed with the application, lists news summaries as a significant part of the programming. The station will have an emphasis on local news, with local reporters and presenters, but we will also use the resources of our existing network of seven overseas reporters and three additional reporters who support our print, television and SCMO programming in Toronto, Edmonton and Fort McMurray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13543 Additional entertainment and lifestyle information will be provided from our entertainment magazine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13544 MS ASMITA: I am pleased to appear before the Commission. I am a recent immigrant to Canada and, as many other young families, we identified Calgary as a good place to live because of its low crime rate, economic opportunities, and the fact that this is a multicultural city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13545 Our South Asian community is growing very quickly. We immigrated to Calgary because we had close friends who had come here a few years ago. So we arrived to familiar faces, but there is very little programming available to us to listen to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13546 In India, I worked as a professional journalist. I covered top political stories and other news events for the Indian Express newspaper.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13547 I am pleased to tell you that since arriving here, in less than a year, I have found opportunities to continue working in my profession.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13548 I cover Bollywood, culture and entertainment stories for the Calgary Herald, and also contribute articles to the Des Pardes Times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13549 I look forward to the contribution I can make as a journalist to a new radio station that is prepared to cover issues of importance to our community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13550 As a journalist, I know that there is a demonstrated need for new radio outlets to serve the ethnic community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13551 I also bring with me many contacts within Indian media and journalism, whom I can rely upon when there are breaking stories out of South Asia. With internet, VoIP telephone, it is very easy to get firsthand reports of news events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13552 MR. SINGH: Good afternoon. Working within the industry as a reporter with a reputable news station and as a documentary producer here in southern Alberta, I can tell you that there is a huge need for a variety of programming that serves the growing South Asian communities in this area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13553 Having been born and raised in southern Alberta, I see the need for an ethnic station that provides unique but vital services to the minority communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13554 There are numerous radio stations in this city which tend to duplicate one another, offering very similar programming, which, on the whole, is not particularly reflective of the diversity of this city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13555 That growing population is most certainly made up of ethnic minorities who need to have a media outlet to serve their needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13556 Other major cities across Canada all have mainstream cultural FM stations that cater their programming to minority communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13557 It is hard to remember a time when subcarrier or chip radio stations were last seen covering community events or news. These media do not provide enough variety of programming to be involved in the daily lives of people. In fact, there are many members of minorities, particularly in the South Asian community, who have no idea that ethnic radio even exists in Calgary through these mediums, which, in a sense, proves that it is non‑existent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13558 The minority communities in Calgary play a vital role in the city's economy and greater society, but have virtually no coverage in the existing media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13559 The Sikh community holds one of the largest annual parades in this city, with over 10,000 people in attendance every year. However, there is minimal to no mention of the event on any of the media outlets, whether they be radio, television or print.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13560 In the interests of time, I will not go into too many details; however, there is also one other idea that I feel very much needs to be addressed, which is that today's youth and ethnic minorities really have no way to link themselves back to their culture.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13561 There is no connection with today's existing media and that portion of society, but the need for cultural issues to be discussed is greater than ever before.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13562 Having ethnic programming would provide a great asset for the minority communities in the fight against drugs and gangs. This is an immense need for the future of Calgary, and an ethnic radio station could very much help in assisting today's youth in this city, linking their lives to their cultural values and traditions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13563 MR. ILNYCKY: I have resided in Calgary since 1974, except for a two‑year period during the middle 1990s.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13564 I am active in the Ukrainian community, more specifically, within the Ukrainian Catholic Church community, and I have a very broad understanding of the ethnic communities in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13565 The Ukrainian community has been in Calgary for over 100 years, and census figures show a growth in the number of Ukrainians in Calgary during the 1980s and 1990s, reflecting migration from other parts of Canada, and also immigration from Ukraine itself and other diaspora countries, such as Poland, the former Yugoslavia and parts of the Soviet Union. As a result, the number of Ukrainian speakers in Calgary has increased.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13566 We have also seen an upsurge in the Ukrainian language and culture since the emergence of Ukraine as an independent state in 1992.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13567 For our community, local news, as well as local commentary, on events in Ukraine and the Ukrainian diaspora would be important for the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13568 In my opinion, the ethnic communities in Calgary are as diverse as those in Toronto, with the principal difference being that they are proportionately smaller in numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13569 One very visible indication of ethnic communities is the presence of various religious groups. Within the Christian segment of Calgary there are many denominational congregations organized along various ethnic lines. Their numbers have actually increased during the last 20 years. The same trend is also true for other religions in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13570 Currently, in Calgary, there is one identifiable ethnic station, which appears to be anchored by Cantonese, at least as evidenced by the website. To my knowledge, this group has not expressed an interest in providing service to the Ukrainian community of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13571 MR. TAMBER: Although this was an open call for a new radio licence, we believe that there is a demonstrated need for additional programming to serve the growing immigrant community needs of Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13572 You have heard from a number of worthy candidates for an English‑language station; however, we believe that Calgary's ethnic community continues to be under‑served relative to the percentage of population they constitute.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13573 Ethnic and multicultural broadcasting occupies a special position in the broadcasting policy and the Broadcasting Act. We ask that you take into account the special role that ethnic broadcasting plays in reaching your decision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13574 Our panel is open for your questions. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13575 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13576 I would ask Mr. Stuart Langford to proceed with his questions of you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13577 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13578 I will try to keep this as brief as possible, but, having said that, I have some areas that will take some explanation, at least for me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13579 I have read, very thoroughly, your application and your supplementary brief, I have enjoyed your remarks today, which answered some of my questions, I have pored over some of the tables you have given us, and I still have questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13580 It's amazing. You pay a guy to ask questions, and he can come up with some.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13581 I hope you will be patient with me and that, together, we can work out the answers to the questions I have, and we can emerge in the next hour or so with a fundamentally clear understanding of what your application is all about and what its chances of succeeding are as a business. As I am sure your advisors have told you, that is a very, very important aspect. We dislike the notion of any of the services we license failing, so we want to make sure that they have a good chance of succeeding before we license them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13582 Having said that, I will now get on with some questions. If you have been sitting in this room, you will know exactly what they are going to be about. They are going to be about format, they are going to be about what you are putting on the radio, they are going to be about your CTD contributions, and they are going to be about some of your projected revenues and expenses.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13583 It is always the same story. Although you may be a little tired of sitting over the last few days, I am sure you have gained from listening to the other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13584 I want to clarify one small point. I think you clarified it today, but I think we had better be absolutely sure about it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13585 At least at one point, in whatever paper has been filed to date, you referred to this new service as serving 12 distinct groups and 14 languages. At other times it was 10 groups and 14 languages. This afternoon it was 10.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13586 I assume it is 10, but could you clarify that point for me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13587 MR. TAMBER: It is 10 groups and 14 different languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13588 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I assume that you would accept a condition of licence to serve those groups and those languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13589 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13590 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13591 The rest of the questions will be a bit more difficult.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13592 Going now to what people will hear if they tune in to your service, should you be licensed, I understand from reading the paper to date that you have proposed a mix of 60 percent music content and 40 percent spoken word, and then the 40 percent is broken up into different aspects, and we will get to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13593 I was wondering, though, regarding the music, will it all be third language music, or will some of the music have English lyrics?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13594 MR. TAMBER: On the ethnic shows it will be all third language music, but there will be some remixes for the new generation. In the remixes there would only be a couple of words in there anyway.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13595 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The remixes have a partial bit of English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13596 MR. TAMBER: Very partial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13597 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. I think we can take it as a given that this will be third language, both in spoken word and in music, with some exceptions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13598 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13599 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for that. Again, these are things we have to clear up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13600 Looking at the proposed schedule that you filed as part of your written material ‑‑ and we fully understand that these schedules cannot be exact to the last minute, but I do have some general questions with regard to the music/spoken word mix.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13601 What I have here, with the exception of the educational elements, is a schedule which essentially sets out which language group will be programming at which time. What it doesn't tell me is the type of programming I might be getting. So I thought that, maybe, we could start with some of the easier, big blocks of programming, the biggest being every day from 1:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13602 What are we likely to hear?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13603 I don't need it in absolute detail, but could you give me a breakdown between the music and the spoken word content?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13604 MR. TAMBER: First of all, mostly every program, before the host starts, there will be a couple of minutes of brief news ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13605 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: A couple of minutes of...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13606 MR. TAMBER: Brief news. Local news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13607 They will also talk about community events ‑‑ upcoming events ‑‑ local and regional events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13608 In the programs there will be a couple of ‑‑ it depends on who is the host.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13609 If we are talking about a talk show ‑‑ and that is what we mostly like. Twenty‑seven percent is talk show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13610 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When you say "talk show", you mean spoken word, not music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13611 MR. TAMBER: Talk show is spoken word, it's not music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13612 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So what would a talk show be? Would it be interviewing guests, or would it be open line?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13613 MR. TAMBER: It could include a specialist ‑‑ a woman coming from a women's crisis centre. We could focus on that. She would be talking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13614 In the ethnic community, we like to hear information, what goes on in the news. Then we could talk about that information on our program, and clearly clarify what is going on in the city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13615 We could bring entertainment, and we could talk to them for an hour on the show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13616 Mostly it's an educational program that we will be talking to all the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13617 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's say that we have four hours. It's not quite that, but we will call it four hours. About one hour of that, or a little bit more, would be talk of some form or another ‑‑ news, community events, special guests.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13618 Would there be some phone‑in shows for that type of thing as well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13619 MR. TAMBER: Yes. With our other stations, in other provinces, most of the time we bring a professional in. They could be from a police unit. They could be from blood donation services. We could talk to them for an hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13620 This is making the community aware of what goes on ‑‑ the importance of donating blood; if one has diabetes ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13621 So most of it will be educational programs, and also news and information programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13622 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could we expect, then, that the rest of the time would be music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13623 MR. TAMBER: We have proposed 60 percent music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13624 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And that is across the board. That would be the mix of just about every hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13625 MR. TAMBER: The mix of every hour, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13626 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take a small segment, now that we have looked at a large one. Let's go to 11:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13627 Actually, I am not clear on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13628 It seems to be, actually, 11:30 to 12:00. It is the Polish segment, Monday to Friday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13629 Some of the times I find difficult in this scheduling, but it may ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13630 MR. TAMBER: We are always doing five minutes of news before any program anyhow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13631 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. Bear with me. Let's assume that we have an hour or half an hour of Polish. Really, the length is almost irrelevant at this point. You would start with a small newscast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13632 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13633 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Polish?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13634 MR. TAMBER: In Polish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13635 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And then you would have music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13636 MR. TAMBER: We would have music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13637 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In Polish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13638 MR. TAMBER: In Polish, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13639 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And maybe some spoken word ‑‑ a guest ‑‑ as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13640 MR. TAMBER: Not in this music time. This will be directed to music only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13641 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The smaller segments, then ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13642 MR. TAMBER: The small segments will be music only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13643 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What about groups like the Ukrainian and the Punjabi that have big sections of time and also small sections of time?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13644 I am looking at, for example, from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., which is Punjabi, and from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m., which is Ukrainian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13645 Give me an idea of what those hour slots would look like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13646 MR. TAMBER: These are the early morning, when we will be playing five minutes of news, as I said before, before every hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13647 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13648 MR. TAMBER: We will also be playing music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13649 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. So just about the same formula for the smaller slots all the way through the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13650 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13651 The bigger slots, we will be having a lot of talk shows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13652 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We spoke about Polish ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13653 Bear with me. I used to be a lawyer in my past life, and I haven't gotten over being professionally thick in the head, so I have to keep asking more and more questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13654 If you have, for example, Polish, as you do, at either 11:00 or 11:30 ‑‑ it's not quite clear to me, but it doesn't matter. Polish in the morning for an hour, or half an hour. As you say, there will be a short newscast and then some music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13655 If we go all the way up to Polish at midnight, another half hour, will that be the same formula again, someone will be doing the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13656 MR. TAMBER: There will be some news, because we have to cover the audience in the morning and the audience in the evening, too.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13657 So the news will be adjusted to current news that is happening, but we will have five minutes of news and the rest will be music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13658 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would it be the same news that was run at 11:30?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13659 MR. TAMBER: No, we would change it, because we have staff reporters across the country who would update the news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13660 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. That gives me a good idea of what it is going to sound like. Very little English language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13661 When I look at your references to the Watan Music Academy and Radio Watan in Toronto, the SCMO in Toronto, you refer to the possibility of synergies. How exactly would that work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13662 I gather that this is a music academy, obviously, by its name. It supplies music. But it is also in Toronto. So I am not entirely sure. Would they be sending you tapes?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13663 I guess that "tapes" dates me; right? Nobody does tapes any more. MP3 units or whatever.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13664 Would they be sending pre‑recorded music in whatever technological form we are dealing with by the time you are licensed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13665 MR. TAMBER: Yes. We are a small but large company to the ethnic community in the media. We will be using the resources from the SCMO in Toronto, from the FM station in Toronto, and we will be saving costs because we will also be using those programs here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13666 And music is the same, when we are playing music. So we could be using a lot of music from the station from Toronto, brought to Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13667 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What languages do the Watan Music Academy and Radio Watan work in?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13668 MR. TAMBER: Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13669 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You do a little bit of Urdu, that's right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13670 Might they be doing your newscasts, for example, and then sending them here by internet or whatever?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13671 MR. TAMBER: We do share a lot of news across our different sources. In the paper ‑‑ we share the news in the print media. On internet, we share the news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13672 We don't do much news on the internet because it is just targeted to the young audience, just music and images of current events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13673 But from Toronto we would be using news to our Calgary station, also, because we want to not just give the local news, we want to give the international and the regional news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13674 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would I be safe in assuming or speculating that the international and national elements of an Urdu or Punjabi newscast, for example, might come from Toronto, and then you would tag onto that an element of local news that was produced here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13675 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we would take some of the news from Toronto, because the Toronto station would cover most of the Toronto news. So whatever news is important to broadcast here in the Calgary FM station, we will use some of the news to broadcast here in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13676 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have some experience in news, but it was back in about the 14th Century, so I am somewhat dated, I admit. Habitually, the way news works, as I understand it, is that you have the talking head ‑‑ the hair and teeth, as we refer to them ‑‑ well, not for poor old Peter Mansbridge any more. It's just teeth now for Peter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13677 They front the whole show, and then introduce reporters in different situations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13678 How would it work if part of your newscast was coming from one place, Toronto, and the other part was being put together here? Who would be the main voice?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13679 MR. SINGH: If I could jump in, I think it works similarly to any other news station here. When you are working at a news station in Calgary, in your newscast you have a portion that is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13680 If your stories of relevance are international, national or local, me, sitting here in Calgary, I am not going to be able to cover a story in Montreal, or get sound clips from a story in England.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13681 If a reporter who is affiliated with our group covers that story, what you have is, you have a data bank of "This is what is going on in the world today", and within your resources ‑‑ these are our reporters who have covered these stories, and they have filed these stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13682 As a producer here on the Calgary show, I am going to decide what is relevant to Calgary listeners. If it is an international story that has to do with people in Calgary, I will put that in my line‑up, but I will also use the stories that are local Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13683 Using that database, people in Toronto have the opportunity to use reporters' stories from Calgary, as well as from all around the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13684 So the anchor in Calgary, or the news producer for that line‑up, for that newscast in Calgary, has the choice of using stories from a data bank from all around the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13685 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's clear, except for one question, if I may. Will the anchor be in Calgary for all of your newscasts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13686 MR. SINGH: I believe so. I believe that, because we are doing ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13687 You can answer the question. I'm sorry to jump in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13688 MR. TAMBER: We have news reporters all over the world. We have five reporters in India.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13689 One of our main persons who handles the news in India, he left here from Canada to India. That is the person we use to bring the news here. He will have his reporters working under him, but he is the main person, who knows the CRTC rules and regulations because he has worked here in Canada as a reporter. He will send us the news from there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13690 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I appreciate that piece of information, but I don't think it quite answers my question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13691 My question is, assuming that you have an anchor ‑‑ a chief news reader ‑‑ will that person be in Calgary, or will that person be in Toronto with some stories from Calgary hooked onto it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13692 MR. TAMBER: No, that person will be in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13693 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: For all newscasts, in all languages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13694 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13695 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you. That is very helpful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13696 So the relationship will be as Mr. Singh has described it. You will be borrowing elements of the Watan station, the Toronto stuff, but not their full news broadcast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13697 MR. TAMBER: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13698 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13699 Let's talk a little bit, if we may, about the spoken word ‑‑ the newscasts and some of the other things. You have made reference to it already, so we can cut to the chase a little.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13700 You talk in some of the filings to date of 32 newscasts per week, some of them as long as 10 or 15 minutes. But you spoke this afternoon about a pattern of 5‑minute newscasts. Maybe you could clarify for me what, overall, we are going to hear in the way of newscasts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13701 MR. TAMBER: Our 5‑minute news is repeated news throughout the day. Unless a breaking news story comes in, we will change the format, but the 5‑minute news will play every hour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13702 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In whatever particular language happens to be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13703 MR. TAMBER: In whatever particular language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13704 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And the 10 and 15‑minute ones that were referred to ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13705 MR. TAMBER: The 10 and 15‑minute ones are local ‑‑ whoever is hosting that certain program. It would add the community events, what is happening at the current time, and what is happening in his own country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13706 If it is the Polish news time, he will do it in Polish. If it's Italian, he will talk about Italy's soccer, or football, or whatever we want to call it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13707 He will add extra minutes to that news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13708 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Then I come to a problem that I have trying to envisage exactly how this would work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13709 You have 14 languages, and yet, when I look at your filings, as part of your appendices you filed a number of charts on revenues and expenses, and one of the pages ‑‑ I am afraid it doesn't have a number on it. It is headed with your name and 78 Snowcap Road in Brampton. It is entitled "Programming and Salary Forecasts".
LISTNUM 1 \l 13710 I see references here to two news readers, eight programming producers, and two field reports, which I assume must be field "reporters", it's just a typo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13711 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13712 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It still doesn't get us to 14.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13713 I am trying to figure out how many languages the average news reader, for example, would have to know to work at your station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13714 MR. TAMBER: The Indian in India ‑‑ one person will speak three languages, Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. So that covers one part. And English also. But we are not doing any news in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13715 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So we have one person who speaks three languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13716 Would that be a news reader or a producer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13717 MR. TAMBER: News reader.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13718 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: News reader. Okay. So now we have one more news reader left. How many languages would this person have to speak?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13719 MR. SIVIA: We have two news readers who will be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13720 We have reporters ‑‑ I just want to give you a picture of what we have currently.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13721 We have a newspaper in Calgary. It has news reporters in Calgary, in Edmonton, and also the same team is in Toronto, and the same example in England.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13722 So all of the reports ‑‑ the written words come as pre‑prepared news, and then we have two presenters here. One will be presenting South Asian, and the other one will be Ukrainian, but the ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13723 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The other one will be what? Excuse me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13724 MR. SIVIA: The Ukrainian language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13725 They are part‑time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13726 The other communities that we will be targeting, they have their own producers. The producers will do the news and music and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13727 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me get this right again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13728 MR. SIVIA: I want to clarify that they are hosts, not the producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13729 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The news readers are hosts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13730 MR. SIVIA: No, no. What I meant to say is, the other community host ‑‑ for example, Vietnamese ‑‑ they will bring their own news, but the two people that you mentioned in our financials are strictly just for one South Asian and the other one for Ukrainian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13731 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: These are news readers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13732 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13733 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One speaks three languages, plus English; the other speaks Ukrainian, plus English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13734 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13735 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's deal with them, since we have them defined.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13736 You said they were part‑time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13737 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13738 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have them down here ‑‑ and, I'm sorry, I am jumping out of programming into budgeting. It works, so I think we might as well go with the flow, rather than stick to the rigid script.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13739 You have them down here as being paid $13,500 annually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13740 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13741 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What does that work out to an hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13742 Do you have any idea?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13743 MR. SIVIA: You see, working with the ethnic community, they are not like English radio, the highly paid people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13744 I have a journalist sitting here who has no job, because she is not good in English. She can't obtain a job in some English broadcasting station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13745 But, here, she is so interested in devoting time to our community, and she is willing to work as a part‑time news announcer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13746 That is an example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13747 So these kinds of people we will hire into our station. They are not full‑time employees. They will be given specific jobs to do, and then they will just stick to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13748 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So how many hours would that take per day, on an average day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13749 MR. SIVIA: I would say that the news would be pre‑prepared, and it will be scanned before it comes here. We will know what the news is going to be, and the person would just sit in and speak to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13750 I believe, for full bulletins, I would say that the person would come two hours a day to read the news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13751 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So this person would show up ‑‑ for example, if we were doing Punjabi, this person would not write the news, they would show up to read it at 6:00 in the morning, and then show up to read it again at 1:00 and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13752 MR. SIVIA: No. I meant to say "full‑fledged" news ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13753 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I beg your pardon, sir?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13754 MR. TAMBER: Let me add that this news is repeated news. Any breaking news will be spoken by ‑‑ or will be hosted by the host itself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13755 The news we are talking about will be produced part‑time by certain producers, in the morning and in the evening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13756 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And this is what we are referring to as news readers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13757 These are the people who are producing this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13758 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13759 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But the news reader ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13760 Maybe I am locked onto the title. Maybe it should be "news person" or something.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13761 If the news reader shows up at 6:00, taking the Punjabi example, and then does Urdu at 9:00, and then does Urdu again at 11:00, and then does Punjabi at 1:00, Hindi at 4:30 ‑‑ that's a long day. Who will do that for $13,500?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13762 MR. TAMBER: The news is recorded only once in the morning, and then it is repeated. Any breaking news is hosted by the host only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13763 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. So what you would do is play the news ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13764 The news would be recorded ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13765 MR. TAMBER: In the morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ I suppose, at 6:00, and whatever, and then ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13767 MR. TAMBER: It will be played ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13768 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ played in three languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13769 Taking the example of the Indian news person, that would be three languages, and then the host ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13770 MR. TAMBER: These salaries are only for Ukrainian and South Asian news. Any other news we will be producing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13771 Like, say, Italian news from Italy, it will be done by the host himself, because he is ‑‑ we are not paying for his cost to produce the news, because he will be doing the news by himself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13772 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And who pays him?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13773 MR. SIVIA: They will be on shared revenue with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13774 For example, the Vietnamese programming will be done, but because it is a small amount, they will collect the revenue, and the revenue coming into the station will be shared with the person who is hosting that program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13775 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are going to have to go over that one a little more slowly for me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13776 They are on a kind of profit sharing, these people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13777 MR. SIVIA: To some extent, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13778 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would this sort of profit sharing apply to everybody except Punjabi, Hindi ‑‑ can I use the general term Indian ‑‑ and Ukrainian?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13779 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13780 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Everyone else is on profit sharing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13781 MR. SIVIA: The small communities, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13782 We will give them a chance, because if it's a small community they cannot afford brokerage time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13783 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We were going to get to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13784 Although, believe me, the size of some of these communities does give one reason to sort of hold your breath a little, in the sense of a business plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13785 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13786 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's take one. You pick, if you like, or I will pick.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13787 Let's take the Russians, who are on from 5:00 to 9:00. They get four hours on Saturday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13788 Explain to me how your relationship would work with the Russian producer, if I could call that person that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13789 MR. SIVIA: What we will do is, we will provide them our production ‑‑ our studio facilities, our airtime. And those people from Russia, for example, that you choose, will go and get the advertisers ‑‑ will collect the advertisements from the community, and the station will share the profit with that person, to support those communities, because they cannot afford ‑‑ as I said, they cannot afford their own time into the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13790 Being an ethnic, we also cannot afford ourselves buying a producer for such a price. So here we can work with the community by sharing the money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13791 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Let me make sure that I have it right. Some members of the Russian community ‑‑ and I gather it is reasonably small, but still you would get some interested members who would agree to put on some Russian programming, broken down 60:40 music/spoken word, some of which would be news, some of which would be guests ‑‑ the very sort of format that you described earlier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13792 In order to gain some revenue from this, you would have some sort of revenue splitting. So whatever ads were sold, you would get a percentage and they would get a percentage. They would also get the use of your studio facilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13793 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13794 I also wanted to mention that we have full‑time staff at the station, so any problem they have, they could also consult with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13795 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have a full‑time Russian‑speaking staff?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13796 MR. SIVIA: No, not Russian, our station staff. If they need any help with the technology and so on ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13797 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't always want to be pursuing negative thoughts here, and I apologize ‑‑ and I want you to know that it is going to get a little negative now because of my misunderstanding of this. But I want you to know that I fully appreciate the sentiments behind this application. I fully understand the spirit of it, and I fully understand the market need and the human need that you are trying to meet here. I don't have any doubt about that in my mind. I am fully cognizant of the directions in the Broadcasting Act which would lead us to think that this is the very sort of thing that we should be trying to promote, and bending over backwards to help you with. But that doesn't take away from the fact that I do have a few concerns.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13798 Let's take our Russian example. How do you control what this group puts on the air?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13799 MR. SIVIA: We have an advisory board that will be constantly connected with our station, and there are members who will be on a rotating basis from those small amount of people that are there. They will be reporting back to us regarding this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13800 Plus, our manager will also be constantly in contact with these people, to make sure they follow the CRTC guidelines.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13801 It is very important to follow the CRTC guidelines. We are going to make them understand what to broadcast.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13802 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me get more fundamental, if I may. It is also important to try, as best we can, to objectively tell the truth when we are doing news. It can't get any more basic than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13803 Who is there?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13804 Other than this advisory board member, who is there to say that the Russian news is accurate and balanced, that the Russian presentation of a guest on a very important public policy issue is balanced and accurate, at least as accurate as can be, or at least gives an opportunity for fair comment on the other side?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13805 And I would take that through all of the other languages that aren't Ukrainian or Indian in origin. Who is there? Who is on your staff?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13806 I don't see anybody like this in your list of employees. Who is there to ensure that there is this kind of very important balance and control, which we need when we are putting what is passing for information and truth out on the public airwaves?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13807 MR. TAMBER: We are not just going to put anybody on the mic. Our company will be thoroughly investigating anybody who will be hosting that program, or could be hired through that station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13808 Our team will work together with the community members. Each community knows which community leader is the best for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13809 This is where our company management team will come in and thoroughly investigate who is the Russian person who will be hosting the news, what experience does he have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13810 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't doubt that you will try. I don't doubt best efforts here, but I have to say that it seems to me that the scope for problems is reasonably large. It is simply a control area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13811 I can see in the bigger pieces that you have probably got people right on staff who can fact‑check and check, even more, the kind of context of what is going out. And music, of course, is, I assume, not a problem, unless there is some equivalent to "eminem" coming out of Russia these days, and there well might be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13812 Okay. I have your answer on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13813 Just to go back to this chart again ‑‑ and I am sorry to beat it to death, but I look at another category that is in the $13,500 a year range, and that is the producers ‑‑ programming producers ‑‑ eight of them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13814 Where do they fit in? What kind of jobs will they be doing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13815 MR. SIVIA: They will be more of ‑‑ say, for the South Asian community, we have a four‑hour block. There are a lot of identified people that we have here who will work with our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13816 Again, as I mentioned before, we are limited with the budget. Those people understand, and they want to reach out to the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13817 They will work as an announcer, for example, or a host part‑time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13818 Because it is an ethnic station, you also have to understand that it's not one man being assigned this job and he is only dedicated ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13819 There is a general manager, who will be talking to the communities. He will probably be sitting some days on the board, helping the person who is hosting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13820 You have to understand how the ethnic people ‑‑ we work with each other, you know. We help. It's not that, the general manager, he is just going to sit on a chair and monitor, he is also going to be there helping people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13821 This is how the part‑time people will come in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13822 MR. TAMBER: Let me add to that. Through our station in Toronto, and newspapers in Edmonton, and also our radio station in Toronto ‑‑ one person, in particular, left for a bigger station. Say, if he is a news announcer, he is going to announce news all day. We don't have a budget for that. But, in an ethnic station, one person is used in many different operations. He could be doing the news, also he could be hosting a program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13823 We have a staff for Punjabi and Ukrainian, but the smaller audiences we have, they bring their own show, and they are playing mostly music. Five minutes of news, which will be monitored, but they are only playing music and playing commercials, and that will be monitored by our staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13824 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I appreciate your experience with the SCMO, and I don't mean to denigrate it in any way. We all start somewhere, and we start where we can, but I think there is a huge difference ‑‑ and I am sure you would agree ‑‑ between the impact of an SCMO and that of a full‑power commercial FM station in a large urban area. There can be a massive impact, because it will be taken as the voice of authority. It has a certain cache simply because of its size and power.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13825 You know, when I hear Mr. Singh ‑‑ and it is so nice to put a face on a name after all these years of listening to him on the CBC ‑‑ there is an assumption that I am getting fact‑based, balanced news. It kind of goes with the territory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13826 So it has an enormous impact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13827 I don't want to sound preachy in my comments, but I think there is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13828 I appreciate your experience with the SCMO, but I think this is a big leap from an SCMO, frankly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13829 MR. TAMBER: I do understand that. I also work for a national ‑‑ Vision TV, so we do understand the rules and regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13830 We also have a one‑hour show on CIUT‑FM in Toronto, and with the print media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13831 So we are experienced FM broadcasters in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13832 We are also on the web. So we have experience working with different communities, working with different languages, working with the rules and regulations of the CRTC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13833 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think you will recall, though, if you work with Vision TV, that they got themselves into a certain amount of difficulty in this very way a few years ago, because what they were taking was brokered programming that they weren't controlling and they weren't pre‑screening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13834 What fell out was a huge rant against homosexuality, which was something that the CRTC had to take them to task for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13835 That wasn't the end of the world. They have a very good record overall, but that one slipped through their controls, because they were selling airtime and they simply didn't have the controls in place to screen it and to approve it for content and for tone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13836 I appreciate your experience with Vision TV, but even a long‑time broadcaster like Vision has run into difficulties with this very problem of ‑‑ if I can call them that ‑‑ outsiders. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but people outside your particular organization coming in and getting access to a microphone. This could lead to problems.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13837 It can be particularly difficult when their access to the microphone is to be used in a language you don't understand.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13838 I appreciate that you have an advisory board, and we will get to some questions I have on that, but I wonder whether that is quite enough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13839 It is one thing to put a day's schedule on, but when you are putting on a year's schedule, a seven‑year schedule, that is a lot to put on the back of a volunteer advisory member. That is a real hard load to carry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13840 We will get back to some of the salary levels. I am taking a little too much time, but I think these points are important to clarify.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13841 Let me ask you about one other aspect of your spoken word programming that I didn't quite understand; that is, educational language courses in ‑‑ I thought it was in French and English, until I saw your programming. So maybe we could start with that. It is only in French.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13842 Will there be educational language courses in English and French, or just in French?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13843 MR. TAMBER: No, that will be in French only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13844 MR. SIVIA: I would like to add that we are developing a program for our VTV where the same scenario ‑‑ in Toronto we are trying to develop this with the community. For our TV viewers we are developing this program for teaching French to ethnic people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13845 So it's fairly new, but we are trying to do something that can help the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13846 I just wanted to add that we are in the process of developing this program for our TV ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13847 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: For TV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13848 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13849 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you are developing it yourselves?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13850 MR. SIVIA: No, we have identified people in Toronto who speak South Asian languages, and they also speak French and English. We have identified, even, a very professional host who speaks French and South Asian languages in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13851 We are working with those people to put this program together for specialty TV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13852 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could you give me some notion of how an hour of this would work?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13853 What will I hear when I turn on my radio? I am dying to learn French, so I turn it on and someone says "Bonjour"?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13854 MR. SIVIA: It is more for the ethnic people, because we will be teaching them, just like how we teach ESL. It is similar to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13855 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But who are you teaching? Are you teaching South Asian people, or Ukrainian people, or Polish people, or does it matter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13856 Have you figured out some way to teach everybody at once?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13857 MR. TAMBER: This will be taught to South Asian and the Ukrainian people first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13858 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I see. You have the personnel in line to do this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13859 You are working on it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13860 MR. TAMBER: We have the personnel in line who are willing to come on board and work with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13861 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you have any idea of the cost of this programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13862 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to mention that the cost of this programming is on our specialty channel, which is going to produce these programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13863 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This is your Category 2 specialty channel?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13864 MR. SIVIA: We are in the process of launching VTV, as we mentioned, on our ‑‑ our parent station, that we are going to be launching specialty 2 channel, which ‑‑ we have most of the parts done, and in a matter of months it will be launched over the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13865 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you have carriage agreements with ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13866 MR. SIVIA: Yes, we have the carriage agreement in the western part of Canada, and we are almost to touch ‑‑ deal with the Toronto side ‑‑ Ontario part of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13867 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Who will be carrying it here? Shaw?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13868 MR. SIVIA: Telus is launching their service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13869 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Telus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13870 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13871 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13872 Basically, what you are going to do ‑‑ and don't let me put words in your mouth, but it sounds like what you are going to do is simply just lift the audio portion of this television program and run it on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13873 MR. SIVIA: Yes, that is what we intend to do, because there are educational programs ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13874 The same percentage of our TV will be ‑‑ it's the same percentage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13875 When we were doing the application, we considered this, because it is already in our TV. So it will reduce the cost of producing such a program on ethnic stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13876 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't want in any way to minimize the value of learning French. I am struggling every week with my four hours of courses, but I same getting there. I won't bore you with a demonstration. I won't assault you with a demonstration, but I am doing my best, so I am a big backer. Even though I am so old now that I am not covered by anybody's demographic, still I am trying.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13877 But I am not entirely sure why, in a city where the language ‑‑ over 80 percent of the people speak English and almost no one speaks French as a first language. Why would you be teaching French rather than English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13878 MR. TAMBER: Being an ethnic broadcaster, we believe ‑‑ and through our community experience, through our kids ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13879 I have two kids. It is very difficult for the newcomer parents, first of all, to learn English, another language, and then they have to learn French.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13880 They are having a difficult time with the kids, teaching them their homework. This program will help the South Asian kids with their French homework. It will teach them the basic understanding of the ‑‑ just like the ESL ‑‑ English and the French also.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13881 So, as an ethnic radio broadcaster, we are here to help the community where they need the help.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13882 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So this is for school children mostly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13883 MR. TAMBER: It is mostly for school children.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13884 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: May I ask you, then, why you would put it on five times a week at 10:00 p.m. in the evening?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13885 MR. SIVIA: Ten p.m. is when the family sits together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13886 I work with a lot of people, and I see that most of the English people have dinner at 6:00 or 7:00 and they go to bed early, but myself and my parents, we go to bed at 10:00, 11:00 or 12:00.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13887 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What about your children? When do they go to bed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13888 MR. SIVIA: I don't have children yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13889 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. Somebody here must have children.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13890 How do they get up for school if ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13891 MR. SIVIA: My nephew goes to bed pretty late. I mean, that is the structure ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13892 My nephew probably came up, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13893 MR. TAMBER: Each community works differently, but if we have to adjust the time, we would adjust the time. That is not a problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13894 But the reason we have that French in there is because we want to help the community. The community is lacking in French.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13895 If we have to change the time to eight o'clock, we would be happy to change it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13896 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It sounds like a winning idea, but you might want to do it at six o'clock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13897 No, that would be the Ukrainian time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13898 I leave that with you, and I don't know what time all children go to bed. I know that mine always went to bed too late, even if it was early.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13899 Those are my questions on that. I have your answers, and I am grateful for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13900 I want to move now, because I am going a little too slowly, and I apologize, to volunteer programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13901 You say in your October 17th, 2005 letter ‑‑ you refer to recruiting volunteers from local temples and community service organizations. That is a direct quote. They will produce eight hours and 45 minutes a week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13902 Can you give me some idea of what we are talking about here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13903 MR. TAMBER: That is the educational programming, eight hours and 45 minutes. I believe that is what we are talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13904 MR. SIVIA: Yes, it is eight hours and 45 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13905 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where will that fit in?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13906 Is that just part of the 27 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13907 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13908 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What kind of education would you be giving?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13909 MR. TAMBER: That is the French timing we are talking about, eight hours and 45 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13910 MR. SIVIA: No, sorry, it is the community people who would be talking on our TV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13911 For example, there is an immigrant women's association in Calgary. A lot of women from South Asia, they don't like to come up ‑‑ or they don't have resources to come up into their organization and obtain help. So we will get those kind of speakers coming into our radio station. And they will come to our radio station. They are experienced speakers. They teach the community the whole day. This is their job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13912 These kind of experienced speakers will be coming to our radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13913 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think that I appreciate what type of programming it is, but why would you differentiate it? Why is it any different from any of the other spoken word programming? Why is it centred out here as some sort of special type?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13914 I don't quite understand that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13915 MR. TAMBER: This is where ethnic communities ‑‑ for the women, it's hard to speak out. We will be bringing a woman from a women's association. She could be talking about social issues, wife abuse or children abuse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13916 These are the education programs. We call them educational because ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13917 It could be winter driving, looking at the weather today; teaching the newcomers in the ethnic community how to handle a car and when to slow ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13918 We treat that as an educational program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13919 It could be teaching somebody why it is important to donate blood. We call that an educational program because we are in a country where a network is helping each other, is helping to build the country, and that is what we are here for, looking at this great country of ours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13920 I have done a lot of volunteer work through the Peel Police in Toronto. We have a softball club.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13921 It's through education ‑‑ if you are not giving education to people of why it is important not to abuse your wife, why it is important to teach the kids and work ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13922 These are the educational programs we are producing for eight hours and 45 minutes, and we could get these through different organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13923 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe I am hung up on a problem here. I understand the value of this, and you have spoken very eloquently about it, and thank you for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13924 Who is to produce it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13925 What I understood from the October 17th letter ‑‑ and perhaps I read it incorrectly ‑‑ was that the volunteer would actually produce this. Are you now saying that you will produce it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13926 MR. TAMBER: No, these are the organizations ‑‑ it could be a women's association. They are looking to reach out to the community. To give them time on the air, and host a program ‑‑ an educational program ‑‑ it not only benefits them, but it benefits the City of Calgary, because they are putting their educational voice out to reach the community they want to reach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13927 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Langford, I think, conceptually, the type of programming that Mr. Tamber is talking about is more structured, where community organizations participate with the radio station on a regular basis. Perhaps one day a month or one day a week a particular individual, who would be designated from a social service agency, would come in and the station would produce a show with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13928 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are saying that the station is going to produce this programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13929 MR. LEWIS: The station would produce the show, but, as opposed to what I would call rolling ‑‑ the old ‑‑ I go back to the foreground days ‑‑ the rolling format program, where there is music and less structured talk. Let's put it that way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13930 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think that is some comfort.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13931 My concern was, again, a lack of control, and in comes yet another element. And I don't in any way question the energy and the spirit with which these people will approach this, but you still need a certain degree of professionalism, and I wonder what the overall quality of your station would be if you are inviting in so many volunteers, amateurs ‑‑ people who want to do a good job, but perhaps aren't skilled at doing it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13932 The quality might suffer horribly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13933 MR. TAMBER: Let me add that if we were looking at the YMCA, they have to have quality to help people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13934 Looking at a women's association that is supported by the City of Calgary, they must have good guidelines and information to give out to the community. That is why they are receiving their funding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13935 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, and I agree that the people would be high quality, but you need a certain amount of familiarity with broadcasting to be able to put together an interesting, well presented show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13936 I am sure that your associate here would tell you that she has years of experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13937 You can't just take anyone off the street, no matter how qualified and how eager they are, and expect that they are going to maintain the quality that I am sure you are going to want for this station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13938 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to mention, also, on the same questions, we answered that these hours will be monitored by our programming directors, or the general manager of our station, because they are really critical and we want them to be monitored by someone who is highly ‑‑ a good employee for our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13939 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. Another possible stumbling block ‑‑ and any broadcaster will tell you this, this is not unique to ethnic broadcasting ‑‑ is the open‑line show. The famous open‑line show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13940 Are you planning to do open‑line shows?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13941 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13942 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you familiar with the need for balance and to screen out abusive and offensive comments, which are requirements of CRTC policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13943 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are, and we will follow all of the rules and regulations ‑‑ the guidelines of the CRTC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13944 MR. SIVIA: Also, in our brief, we said that we will have a policy for these talk shows. And it is not every single producer or part‑time producer who will be doing an open‑line program. We want senior, serious people conducting these kind of shows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13945 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Still, there is no reason why the Russians, who have five hours ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13946 I keep picking on the Russians. We will do the Italians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13947 There is no reason why the Italians can't have an open‑line show, is there? Or would you just not allow that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13948 MR. TAMBER: For the Italians, due to the tiny size of the population, there is very minimum time for them, so we stuck to music for the Italians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13949 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'll say it's tiny. According to the Financial Post's 2005 estimates, language at home ‑‑ listing the number of people who speak Italian at home, which is a pretty good test as to whether they are going to listen to the radio in Italian or not ‑‑ 1,038 as of last year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13950 That brings us to another issue. Can you carry five hours of programming a week if you only have 1,038 people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13951 MR. SIVIA: You are referring to Italian‑speaking people?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13952 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13953 MR. SIVIA: I don't think we have five hours, but I will double confirm ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13954 MR. TAMBER: It is four hours weekly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13955 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. Four. Excuse me. I never was good at math. I apologize.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13956 MR. TAMBER: That is four hours weekly, so that works out to about half an hour ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13957 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I beg your pardon?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13958 MR. TAMBER: It is four hours weekly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13959 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In one block. So four hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13960 I apologize, I read that wrong.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13961 That is probably why the people in the Income Tax Department never like what I send to them in April.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13962 The question stands. You have four hours, and you have a group of, essentially, 1,000 people, which is your total possible audience. I don't know if you can assume they are all going to be home on Sunday at five o'clock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13963 You could end up with an audience of a few hundred people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13964 How long can you carry the economic freight for that, because you are on some sort of profit sharing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13965 MR. SIVIA: I just want to mention that a big portion of our revenue is coming from South Asian broadcasting. A big bunch. And then we are left with so much ‑‑ a little money from those small communities to gather from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13966 As you said, 1,000 Italian‑speaking people ‑‑ but the StatsCan ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13967 I mean, the ethnic people ‑‑ for example, when Statistics Canada would do a survey, my parents would never respond to it. They would never get into those numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13968 I am not saying that Statistics Canada is wrong, but, as far as the ethnic communities, they are not that accurate that we can find within the communities ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13969 Perhaps, I believe, the same thing can be implemented to the Italian community, also.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13970 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are saying that the numbers may be vastly understated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13971 MR. SIVIA: To our understanding, the number for the Italian population should be more than what you are stating.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13972 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But I am not speaking about the entire Italian population, I am speaking about that part of the Italian population which identifies its home language ‑‑ the language they speak at home, that they feel comfortable in ‑‑ as being Italian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13973 I assume that people who have been in Canada longer may have switched over, on a day‑to‑day basis, to English, perhaps without even knowing it is happening, but it has happened.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13974 MR. SIVIA: Yes. We also find that within our community, because you can talk with them every day, but those ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13975 For example, kids ‑‑ like my age, would they still be listening to the music of South Asia? If you wanted to just compare ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13976 The youth of South Asia would listen to Punjabi music, would listen to what is going on, but they don't speak Punjabi. When a survey would come to them, they would state that they are English speakers, rather than saying they are Punjabi speakers. But they will love to hear what their culture is about. They will love to hear the music that we play. A lot of these kids, I mean, they barely speak Punjabi, but they listen all day to Punjabi music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13977 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How did you choose the groups that you chose?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13978 I mean, the big ones are somewhat obvious, but how did you choose them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13979 MR. SIVIA: We chose by ‑‑ we did our study in the market, because we have a newspaper and we always talk with our newspaper. But, there again, most of them are committed with the South Asians.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13980 But we had a feel for the community, and we also checked the Statistics Canada numbers, and we matched them. We had our staff here working, and then we worked out with them what the best numbers were, and what is the population that is not being served.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13981 As I said, we are going to draw a big amount of money from South Asians, but we also have to support these other communities, although we will probably have to fund some money from South Asian to, for example, Italian programming. You know, if you can't get a really good response ‑‑ but we are still going to continue providing those languages. The revenue will probably be diverted from our South Asian revenue that is going to come.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13982 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What you are saying is that you expect the vast majority of your revenues to come from the larger ‑‑ the two larger blocks ‑‑ South Asian and Ukrainian ‑‑ and that they will subsidize the others, if necessary, assuming that the other people will work virtually ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13983 MR. SIVIA: Yes. Once the station is on the air, if we have to subsidize some people, yes, we would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13984 MR. TAMBER: Let me add to that. With the experience with the newspaper and the business directory, we have a lot of people in the South Asian community who are willing to jump on with us for the FM station, because with the first edition of the business directory we had 300 business pages on this for these business pages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13985 Now, this being the third edition, we are almost over 400 businesses listed in the business directory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13986 So we know the South Asian market, and we also know the value and the price of the market, and we know the numbers that are willing to jump on the FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13987 We have a huge market in the South Asian community. If we lack on the Italian budget, the South Asian would ‑‑ there is enough budget in there to cover the costs of the Italian time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13988 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I wonder. There may be enough revenue, in a sense, that you can keep the rent paid and the staff paid and the heat on, but the other side of the equation, it seems to me, is that you have a large group of your 14 languages represented, who are essentially being asked to work as part of a speculative venture.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13989 You come and you do your four hours of Russian, or your two hours of Filipino, and if you can sell some ads, you will get part of it, but if you can't you will get nothing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13990 How long will it be before they tire, if, by your own admission here today, there isn't a lot of market out in those smaller language groups?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13991 MR. SIVIA: For example, the Vietnamese community ‑‑ you only recognize that there is one number, but you also see the stats, which are very minimum. But if you go ‑‑ the community has grown so big ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13992 I mean, we have here Kim, who feels that there are a lot of advertisers. There are two newspapers, and they are full of a lot of advertising, and still, a lot of people, they don't advertise in those sources, they like to advertise on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13993 You have to also understand that these groups don't receive no programming at all, and when we have a program and we are expecting a lot of people to listen to it, that is the only source of the business to advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13994 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The story seems to change dramatically. At one point, not very long ago ‑‑ five or six minutes ago, I would suggest ‑‑ you were saying to me that you are going to have to subsidize the smaller communities, that the South Asian community will basically be carrying the freight here. That is the big money‑maker. But now you are telling me, no ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13995 MR. SIVIA: I feel that the community will be saying that it can fulfil the need that we would be expecting from the community, but the subsidies will only be if they cannot support themselves, or if something we projected ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13996 You know, say that everything doesn't work 100 percent. We are very confident that we can achieve what we proposed, but if something, as you said, to be on the negative side ‑‑ if the Italians don't have enough resources to pay, we will pay for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13997 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You will even pay a salary for the Italian programmer, or the Italian host?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13998 MR. TAMBER: There is enough budget revenue to cover the salary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13999 I believe, with only four hours per week on the Italian, or any other language, is very minimum. I believe they will be able to pull in the advertising.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14000 There are enough businesses in the Calgary community to support their community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14001 I think, if you call an ethnic channel, anybody would love to support their language. This is what Canada is all about. This is what the ethnic station is all about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14002 I mean, if I have a chance to support my Punjabi channel ‑‑ Punjabi language ‑‑ and teach my community the values of the lifestyle in Canada, I think that supporting a very minor budget should not be a problem for the Italian, Filipino or any other community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14003 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I admire your positive thinking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14004 Let's take one more example. We are really talking now about revenue projections here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14005 It would seem to me, listening to you, that the larger the community, almost axiomatic, the more revenue you will be able to generate. There will be more businesses, there will be more people willing to advertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14006 Does that make sense to you? Am I correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14007 MR. TAMBER: Yes, it does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14008 If you look at our budget, we haven't projected any national advertisement in our budget. In our budget we only projected ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14009 No, we haven't projected any national advertisement, because that could also fill the field.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14010 Through our paper and our SCMO and other experience ‑‑ we have national advertisement in our paper, but we have not projected any budget in this radio station that there will be any national advertisement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14011 That money could be there to help out the smaller communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14012 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me make an observation here. You have set aside a good deal of time, five days a week, about four hours a day ‑‑ five hours a day, five days a week, for Ukrainian programming, and you have set aside one hour per day, five days a week, for Vietnamese ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14013 Have I got that right, or is it only one hour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14014 It is only one hour for the whole week, I think. Yes, one hour, 9:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. on Sunday for the Vietnamese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14015 My reading of the statistics would say that the Vietnamese community is at least twice the size of the Ukrainian‑speaking community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14016 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to point out that when we did the FM proposal, we had Mr. Kim Bode with us. Some communities expect extra ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14017 I mean, we thought that one hour would be enough, but there is people demand. People are calling us. They send us support letters. They are saying that there are great people that can listen to us, and later we can have more amount of time devoted to the Vietnamese communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14018 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you saying that this is a moveable feast, that you may change this around, that you may take from Peter to pay Paul?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14019 You are going to get the support of Paul, that's for sure, but are you saying that you may have to strip away ‑‑ and let's be specific ‑‑ some of the time dedicated to the Ukrainian community and give it to the Vietnamese?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14020 MR. TAMBER: We don't want to take any pie away from anybody, but if they are not supporting their timetable, and if there is a need for the Vietnamese community to jump on board and produce the revenue, we would follow the guidelines to change the schedule, if we have to. But we will stick to this timetable at this moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14021 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have your advisory board member behind you. I am sure that he can protect the interests of his community, and I will leave that task to him.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14022 You have said today ‑‑ and certainly there is nothing on the paper file to indicate otherwise ‑‑ that you have, in fact, done no professional market surveys at all, that your projections of revenue, your projections of interest from the community, stem, basically, from your own experiences, from your judgment on the size of the community, and from some experience that you had selling ads in a publication, the Des Pardes Times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14023 Tell me a little about the Des Pardes Times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14024 MR. TAMBER: Des Pardes Times is affiliated with our company. We have been working for the past several years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14025 We are in the market. That is why the South Asian ‑‑ if you look at the block, it is supporting most of the budget to this station because we have experience in this market. Our paper is full of ads. The business directory is full of ads. We are promoting local talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14026 We are in the community. We know what advertisements we have in our magazine and in our business pages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14027 There is a big demand for them to come on the FM station, because they want to advertise ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14028 I mean, we have a biweekly paper, which we were going to make into a weekly paper, but with this FM station coming, these advertisers, if they have a sale going on right away, where they can't advertise in the paper, they want to advertise on the FM station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14029 We have enough advertisers to cover the cost.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14030 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Bear with me for a very few basic questions on the Des Pardes Times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14031 In this section we are talking about Ms Sandhu as the co‑publisher of the Des Pardes Times business pages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14032 How often are the business pages published?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14033 MR. TAMBER: Once a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14034 MS SANDHU: Once a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14035 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How much does it cost for a typical advertisement in the Des Pardes Times?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14036 MR. TAMBER: Should I give you the national revenue, or just the local ethnic revenue?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14037 It averages anywhere from ‑‑ an average ad in the business directory is $500 to $1,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14038 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In the business directory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14039 MR. TAMBER: In the business directory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14040 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So once a year you have had the experience that up to 400 businesses have advertised in this directory, and for the pleasure of that they have paid $400 or $500.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14041 How do you translate that into the hunger for money that a commercial FM radio station has?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14042 This isn't a once‑a‑year event. People have to be prepared to buy advertising every day of the year, seven days a week, many times through the day. They have to support you in a significant way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14043 I have seen your rate sheets, and I have seen your projected revenues. You project to be running in the black Year 1. That is a very optimistic projection.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14044 We just had the Pattison Group in front of us, which is one of the most experienced groups of radio broadcasters in Canada. They are not big yet, but, boy, they are experienced, and they know their business. They are not projecting to get into the black until Year 5.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14045 MR. SIVIA: I would like to give you an example of our Toronto SCMO.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14046 When we first started, no one was listening to us, because we had to sell the radio, as you are aware. But at the very first, at the beginning, we had more than 50 ‑‑ almost 45 to 50 advertisers who will pay us to support that kind of programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14047 Where, in English media, the business people only see the advantage, but where the ethnic people like to help each other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14048 That is an example that we had in Toronto, which would be in Calgary. People are still calling us and they are wondering when the FM station will be on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14049 This is the kind of response we are getting from the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14050 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's assume for a horrible moment that your projections are too optimistic. What will you do to make up a dramatic shortfall?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14051 Assume just for the moment the hypothesis that you are dramatically overestimating it, and not through any fault of your own. You have given it your best shot. There is nothing like having all of your community clap you on the back and say: We are behind you. And when the trouble starts, you look around and you are marching alone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14052 Every businessman, somewhere along the line, has had that experience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14053 What resources do you have at your command to see you through, say, three or four very bad years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14054 MR. SIVIA: We have investors who are ‑‑ you can see the letters. We have not too many from our personal investments, but we also have investors who can support us in case of an emergency, as you explained. But it is most likely ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14055 We are 30 percent ‑‑ we projected 30 percent of the revenue, which is very minimum to collect. I mean, 30 percent ‑‑ and this is where we are going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14056 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Revenue is one side of it. The other side, of course, is ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14057 MR. SIVIA: Thirty percent of our inventory is sold out, I meant to say. We are only selling 30 percent of our radio. And we have an existing newspaper in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14058 We are known in the market. People know us. It is very likely not to happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14059 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am looking now at your seven‑year expense projections. It is, again, part of the same appendices that came in with some of your written filings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14060 I am looking at rent, for example ‑‑ $20,544 for Year 1. That is roughly $1,700 a month. Is that realistic for a radio station, with studio space and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14061 MR. SIVIA: The current office that we have in Edmonton ‑‑ and it's a fair good amount of the unit, and this is the right price, we figured. We would have a really good studio and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14062 Obviously, we cannot build an empire, because we are an ethnic ‑‑ small broadcaster. So we have to limit our budget.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14063 We can't afford big buildings, compared to something we want to survive in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14064 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: As I understand it, the occupancy rate is so high here in Calgary that there are almost no vacancies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14065 I haven't done a survey, but I don't see a lot of "For Rent" signs hanging in windows when I go on my lonely walks to try to get over sitting here for eight hours a day. I wonder if my body still works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14066 It looks a little low to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14067 MR. SIVIA: We have recently ‑‑ we contacted, actually ‑‑ these are figures not just off the top of my head. I contacted a person who recently built a plaza, and they have promised to give us ‑‑ lease out the space that we require.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14068 It was built by one of the Indian guys, and he is willing to give us the space for that amount of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14069 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And it is located reasonably close to tower space and whatnot?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14070 MR. SIVIA: Could you repeat your question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14071 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me look at one last expense, and then I think I will be finished with my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14072 What I really want to look at is Canadian Talent Development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14073 I am not unclear about what you are doing with the money. That seems reasonably clear to me. Strangely enough, I can't figure out how much money it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14074 On the expenses sheet that we were just speaking about, it is down at $30,000 a year. That is what is expensed, every year, $30,000, for seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14075 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14076 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But at different times in your written submissions to us, depending on how I read your commitments, it can be as low as $8,000, or even $12,000 a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14077 I am confused as to precisely what you are committing to absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14078 MR. SIVIA: We are committing to $30,000 total in CTD, or 2.5 percent of our total revenue. That is, pretty much, standard policy. This is the money we have allocated for our CTD plan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14079 The reason I said ‑‑ if you look at the deficiency questions, we said where we are going to spend that money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14080 I also want to clarify one thing. When you initially started, when you were talking about the music, bringing it from Toronto, the Watan Music Academy is a standalone, different academy, which is not affiliated. We don't own any of the shares ‑‑ or we are not the owner of that academy. But the Watan name is so famous ‑‑ I mean, Watan basically means a country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14081 I just wanted to clarify that, that there is a different identity to it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14082 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I hope that Mr. Lewis will agree, and I hope that you will agree.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14083 I think the easiest thing to do would be for you to give me a list of what exactly you are committing to and how much you are committing to it, and then we will add it up at the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14084 I want you to keep in mind that we would expect you to agree to a condition of licence to this. We would like to have what you agree to as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14085 I am not trying to push you to $30,000 or more; I simply want to know what it is, so that we are very, very clear in our minds about this aspect of your licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14086 If you could give me the list, I will jot it down, and the commitment on numbers. I will jot those down, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14087 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Langford, I am looking at a letter filed on the 17th of October, which is a deficiency response. Unfortunately, it is not numbered, but it is Item No. 6. So it is six items in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14088 If I could run through the list with you, perhaps that would be helpful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14089 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If you don't mind, because it seems to me that it may have been that document or another ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14090 MR. LEWIS: There is another document, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14091 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ where there was an indication that your clients would commit to it as a COL.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14092 MR. LEWIS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14093 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So my sense of confusion deepened.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14094 MR. LEWIS: The original commitment was the $8,000 ‑‑ the number for Calgary, as the size of market, was $8,000 per year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14095 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14096 MR. LEWIS: Of that $8,000, in the first three years, $5,000 was for the CAB initiative, and $3,000 was for the ‑‑ I believe it is the Ontario Ethnic Broadcasters initiative. So that is $8,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14097 Then, over and above that, there is $22,000, which is in the October 17th document, and that was broken out ‑‑ $12,100 for the talent contest ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14098 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right, and I have the elements of that. The concert hall, studio and ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14099 Right, I have that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14100 MR. LEWIS: Then there is $5,000 for the scholarships, and $4,900 for the advertising of CDs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14101 Then, over and above the $22,000 is the $8,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14102 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14103 MR. LEWIS: So that is the $30,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14104 Then, after the third year, starting in the fourth year, the condition of licence would be the 2.5 percent of revenue or $30,000, whichever is greater.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14105 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And your clients are willing to commit to that as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14106 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14107 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14108 I am sorry if I sounded a little thick on that point, but I did get somewhat confused.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14109 Strangely enough, usually it is the other way around ‑‑ we are clear on the money, but not clear on what people are going to do with it. This time we were fairly clear on what you are going to do with it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14110 I would like to ask you another standard question ‑‑ and we ask this of everyone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14111 If, in reviewing your commitment, we find some element that is not acceptable ‑‑ it wouldn't be the whole thing. Just listening to you, we know that a good deal of it ‑‑ I mean, committing to the CAB is always acceptable. But if we found an element that wasn't acceptable, would you be willing to re‑file another proposal with the same amount of money?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14112 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14113 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14114 Mr. Chairman, those are my questions of this Applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14115 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14116 Madam Del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14117 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Hello. I have one question on your financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14118 On your growth, year‑to‑year, in the seven‑year plan, I just noticed that you have increases per year. You go from Year 1 to Year 2, 17 percent, and then you go 20 percent, 17 percent, 12 percent, and 9 percent, and then, in the last year, you jump to 25 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14119 I am wondering ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14120 MR. SIVIA: Are you referring to our revenue projections?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14121 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14122 Usually we have seen a decline, but this time you go from 17 to 20 to 17 to 12, down to 9, and then up to 25 in the last year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14123 MR. SIVIA: The way we calculated this was the percentage of growth in every year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14124 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14125 MR. SIVIA: If you could give me one second to get my papers up front with me ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14126 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Yes.
‑‑‑ Pause / Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14127 MR. SIVIA: If you go to the revenue forecast sheet, it says that in the first year we will have 30 percent of our inventory, and then it increases to 35 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14128 It is not 30 percent of ‑‑ it is just another 5 percent increase in the revenue, and so on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14129 If you go to the third year, it is 42 percent of sold‑out inventory.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14130 This is how we predicted our revenue, which is a fair amount of growth. From the first year to the second year, we have 5 percent growth, and from there, if you go to the third year, we have another 7 percent growth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14131 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: So you calculate what is your percentage growth from year to year, then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14132 MR. SIVIA: For example, the first year to the second year is 5 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14133 The difference of ‑‑ you know how 30 percent is the first year. So we would be going another 5 percent in the second year, and then we would be going up to 42 percent in the third year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14134 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: And what are the years following?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14135 MR. SIVIA: If you could give me a moment ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14136 Or we could file the ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14137 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: Sure. Why don't you do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14138 MR. SIVIA: Yes. We will file, where it says clearly what kind of percentage it is growing by every year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14139 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL: All right. Please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14140 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14141 MR. SIVIA: No problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14142 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you are making an undertaking to file material, when could we expect to receive it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14143 MR. LEWIS: By Friday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That's fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14145 Also, Mrs. Duncan would like to ask a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14146 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: I see that you have, on the ownership data that I have, three shareholders, and yet you are incorporating a co‑operative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14147 I am not familiar with that business structure. Could you explain it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14148 I thought that a co‑operative was usually owned by all of its members and that it would not have shares. This must be something unique to Alberta law maybe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14149 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Duncan, I think that the document you are referring to is a draft document, "Summary of Articles of Incorporation".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14150 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: Actually, what I am looking at is a document prepared by staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14151 MR. LEWIS: Oh, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14152 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: At the outset you were introduced as a co‑operative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14153 The document I am looking at was prepared by staff, but when you were introduced at the outset, you were introduced as a co‑operative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14154 When I am looking through, I see that there are three shareholders. Am I wrong in that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14155 MR. LEWIS: There are three shareholders.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14156 The document that was filed ‑‑ and I may be mistaken, but I think the intent was ‑‑ in our October filing for deficiency questions, my clients prepared some articles of incorporation, in draft, which they obtained from the Alberta government ‑‑ some forms ‑‑ and the intention was a corporation, not a share corporation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14157 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14158 MR. LEWIS: I am looking at the ownership chart at 2.2 of the application form, and the intent was a share structure company, rather than a co‑operative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14159 I don't know where the word "co‑operative" came from, I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14160 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: So that word should be deleted?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14161 MR. LEWIS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14162 COMMISSIONER DUNCAN: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14163 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14164 Legal counsel?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14165 MS BENNETT: I have two questions for you. The first one relates to your audience projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14166 In your October 17th, 2005 response to deficiency questions, you set out some audience projections. I would like to ask if you could tell the panel how you arrived at the estimates of the percentage of listening that would come from different age groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14167 MR. SIVIA: When we did the statistics for this, we got the data from Statistics Canada. They provided us the data, what is the number of people and what age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14168 For example, 15 to 24.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14169 And the total ‑‑ what we did was, we totalled up all of the languages ‑‑ major languages that we would try and target, and then we did the mathematical calculation of ‑‑ we will be targeting 60 percent of our audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14170 So this is how we came up to the percentage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14171 MS BENNETT: I have one further question, which relates to how you arrived at your percentages of revenue, based on Ukrainian and other language programming, and Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi language programming, which were on page 2 of your October 17th letter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14172 MR. SIVIA: Are you referring to Question 2 on the 17th of October letter?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14173 MS BENNETT: Yes, it is Question 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14174 MR. SIVIA: We have done our ‑‑ from our internal survey that we did here, we knew what kind of community we are, especially for the South Asian and Ukrainian ‑‑ what kind of community can support us ‑‑ what kind of revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14175 For example, in the South Asian community, a lot of people don't have a place to advertise. So a big portion of that is coming out of the South Asian community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14176 There is not much programming offered to them at the current time, so we went into the community to see how many people that advertised were ‑‑ because we are already into the market and we know how many people ‑‑ you know, we have an idea of the community because, on a daily basis, we are dealing with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14177 This is how we formed this chart.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14178 MS BENNETT: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14180 I forgot to ask my standard question, before asking you to make your wrap‑up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14181 As you know, we have heard other applicants, and we will be hearing a few others. Some have been saying that there is enough room for more than one licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14182 In the eventuality that the Commission were to grant you a licence, which one of the other applicants could have a negative effect on your business plan; and, if there is one, why?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14183 MR. TAMBER: The reason our application makes the best use of the frequency ‑‑ I would like to explain that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14184 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14185 MR. SIVIA: I think that our business plan won't be affected by any of the English ‑‑ because they don't cater to these audiences. These audiences are under‑served, and no one has served these audiences, so they are completely left alone. We have no competition with any of the other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14186 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your comments. The answer was obvious, but, in all fairness, since I have been asking all of the other applicants, I thought that I should ask you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14187 You seem to be ready to wrap‑up, so we will hear that now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14188 MR. TAMBER: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14189 We believe that we can make a significant contribution to this community by serving visible and linguistic minorities who do not have sufficient access to high‑quality programming in their own language, and do not currently have a voice on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14190 Approving our application would bring a new, independent owner into both the Canadian broadcasting system and the Calgary market. We will provide a new, independent editorial source of news and information.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14191 The station will achieve the objectives of the Commission and the Broadcasting Act by reflecting the diversity of Calgary's minorities on the air every day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14192 We understand that section 3(d) of the Broadcasting Act places a special priority on broadcasting which affects multiculturalism and the multicultural nature of Canadian society. We believe that we meet that objective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14193 We have identified in our community many individuals who are talented broadcasters, who have no role to play in mainstream English‑language broadcasting in this country. As you have heard today, we will create an on‑air opportunity for these people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14194 We commit to the Commission to be proactive in effecting a balance of men and women in the staffing of the station and on the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14195 We will provide programming to families, including younger and older members of the communities, by playing a variety of music, and the music is not duplicative of any of the other applicants or any other existing stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14196 The station will also provide educational programming and spoken word, which will allow newly arrived immigrants, and those who have lived here for some time, to better assimilate into Canadian society.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14197 Our station will also tackle the tough issues that affect immigrant communities, including family and domestic problems.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14198 We know that many community groups and social agencies have great difficulty getting their message out to the ethnic communities. The growing visible minority population of the City of Calgary and its social agencies will benefit the most from our ethnic station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14199 We plan to work with ethnic broadcasters across Canada to promote and expose Canadian talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14200 Performers, not only South Asian, but from all ethnic communities, are taking their place on the world stage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14201 There are market opportunities, and not only in Canada, where young people buy recordings of Indo‑Canadian artists. There are also export opportunities in the U.K., South Asia, the U.S. and other parts of the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14202 Our CTD commitment will be on‑air play, and we will work to promote the careers of these artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14203 Our station will have the least impact on existing Calgary stations, and is likely to have no impact whatsoever on any other applicants before the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14204 Our application projects zero national advertisement dollars during the term of the seven‑year licence. That means that not one national advertisement dollar would actually be taken from the 15 existing Calgary radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14205 The revenue projections are based firmly on advertisements from retailers who do not use existing media or would like to propose radio services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14206 Although we believe that 92.9 is the best frequency to serve our communities right across the city, we are confident that, were the Commission to license three or more AM and FM stations, a frequency could be chosen that would afford adequate services to generate the revenues we have projected in the application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14207 I want to thank you for a thorough hearing, and I want to thank the Commission Staff, who worked with us prior to the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14208 We look forward to your decision.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14210 We will now take a 15‑minute break.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 3:55 p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 4:15 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14212 We will move to the following item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14213 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14214 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14215 We are now at Item 8 on the agenda, which is an application by Rawlco Radio Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14216 The new station would operate on Frequency 100.3 Mhz, Channel 262‑C, with an average effective radiated power of 19,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, antenna height of 276.5 metres.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14217 Appearing for the Applicant is Ms Pam Leyland. Ms Leyland will introduce her colleagues. She will then have 20 minutes for her presentation.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 14218 MS LEYLAND: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Arpin, Mr. Williams, Ms Del Val, Ms Duncan, Mr. Langford and Commission Staff. My name is Pam Leyland. I am President of Rawlco Radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14219 I am proud to run 12 radio stations in Saskatchewan, and our newest baby, Magic 99, in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14220 It is an honour to be here applying for Calgary's ‑‑ in fact Canada's ‑‑ first and only acoustic‑based folk radio station. We are proud to present you with a unique, innovative application, one that will provide a distinctive listening choice for Calgary and will give the wonderful folk community here an unparalleled opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14221 Our station will give a voice to Canada's music ‑‑ folk music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14222 Allow me to take a moment to introduce you to the members of our panel applying for Folk 100, or, if I could put it another way, it is time to "meet the folkers".
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14223 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I would say that you got away with it, but just.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14224 MS LEYLAND: I was very careful on the pronunciation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14225 I would like to say that the biggest challenge I have running Rawlco Radio is seated to my left, Gordon Rawlinson, CEO of Rawlco.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14226 Rawlco was started by Gordon and Doug's late father, E.A. (Ed) Rawlinson. I am very pleased that we have with us E.A.'s grandson, Gordon's son, Edward Rawlinson. Edward is standing beside me, and to my right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14227 With Edward is "Mr. Indispensable", the guy who makes dealing with Gord a little bit easier, Gord's assistant, Bob Young.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14228 On my immediate right is Doug Pringle, our Director of Program Development. There will be more on Doug after I introduce the other members of our panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14229 Next to Doug is Neil MacGonigill. Neil has a long history in the music business. He has worked for major record labels, including London Records, Warner Brothers and A&M. He was K.D. Lang's tour manager, he managed Ian Tyson, and played a key role in developing the carriers of Jan Arden and Paul Brant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14230 Neil currently owns an independent label here in Calgary called "Indelible Music", which has released nine CDs over the last four years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14231 Neil is appearing with us today because, if our application is successful, he will become the executive producer of our major Canadian Talent Development initiative, Project 10K20.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14232 Next to Gordon, on my left, is Don Armstrong. Army was the project manager for 10K20 in Edmonton. He has totally immersed himself in Calgary's vibrant folk music scene, and, if our application is approved, will be responsible for 10K20 right here in his hometown.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14233 Next to Don is Johanna Sillanpaa. Johanna graduated from the music program at Grant MacEwan College and the jazz vocal workshop at the Banff School of Fine Arts. She has performed in numerous clubs and concerts, not only here in North America, but also in Europe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14234 Johanna participated in Project 10K20 in Edmonton. In all our years of doing Canadian Talent Development projects, we have never seen a program this successful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14235 If I could draw your attention to the graphic on my right, Johanna's CD "Goodlife" is there, in the second row, on the far right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14236 One reviewer said of her CD: "Outstanding. Soulful. Smooth. The best thing I could say is, `Check it out for yourself'."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14237 Behind me is Dave Babcock, a professional, first‑call sax player. Prior to the hearing in Edmonton, we had Dave test our Project 10K20 concept by making a CD, and now tracks from that CD are in rotation on our station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14238 Dave is also the executive producer of Project 10K20. He works closely with all of the artists to make sure their CDs are the best they can possibly be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14239 The final result is the 20 CDs you see on our graphic. I believe, in each and every case, that the artists are very pleased and proud of the music they produced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14240 Next to Dave is Doug Rawlinson, the Executive Vice President of Rawlco. Doug Rawlinson and Doug Pringle are the programming gurus of Rawlco. We call them "The Doug and Doug Show".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14241 Beside Doug is Bruce Cameron, the President of Cameron Strategy. His firm did our research.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14242 In introducing Bruce, I have to tell you a funny story. We met with Bruce and mentioned that we wanted to research Folk music. Bruce let us go on for about ten minutes before he finally said, "There are some things that you should know about me. First, I'm on the board of the Calgary Folk Music Festival. Second, I play in a Folk Group called Swamp Donkey. And third, my firm has done extensive research on the kind of people who go to the Folk Festival."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14243 Well, talk about hitting the jackpot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14244 So Bruce is here today wearing at least three hats.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14245 First, he can talk about our market research. Second, he knows a great deal about the Folk Festival. And third, he is intimately involved with Calgary's Folk music scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14246 Finally, I would like to say a few more words about Doug Pringle.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14247 Doug was one of the inspirations for this Folk music application. Doug's roots in Folk music go right back to its heyday in the tumultuous sixties. At that time Doug pioneered the progressive Rock format in Canada at CHOM‑FM in Montreal. This is the time when Folk music was the conscience of the world, when its lyrics expressed such core values as equality of the sexes, the fight against racism, concern for the environment and of course anger about fighting the wrong war ‑‑ core values that resonate to this day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14248 I now want to ask Doug to tell you a story. It is the story of Canada's music, Folk music, how it was given wings in the late sixties on FM radio but how it fell victim to the evolution of FM, to the point where today we find ourselves in a very unique position.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14249 This incredibly rich genre of music, both classic and contemporary, is without a home on radio in Canada. I believe that you will become convinced that now is the time, and Calgary is the place, to once again give Folk music its rightful spot on the FM dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14250 MR. PRINGLE: The story of Folk and acoustic music on FM radio on the dial here in Canada really started with progressive Rock radio back in the sixties. Up until then, all popular music was on AM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14251 The recognition that many new artists were not getting played on AM led three adventurous stations ‑‑ CHUM‑FM in Toronto, CHOM‑FM in Montreal and CFOX in Vancouver ‑‑ to try a new kind of radio. And it was called Progressive Rock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14252 The words Progressive Rock suggest that this was a Rock format. Well, in actual fact, that is not true. The word "progressive" was more important than the word "Rock". It included Rock, but it also included a lot of other kinds of music ‑‑ acoustic music, some R&B and some totally weird offbeat stuff like Ravi Shankar's Raga.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14253 But at its heart, the format was a blending of Folk music and Rock music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14254 The acoustic stars were just as big as the Rock stars. A brand new Bob Dylan or Gordon Lightfoot album was just as big as the latest Led Zeppelin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14255 But it was the Folk music of the day that contained the lyrics that changed the world. The power of the lyrics was entirely carried by the acoustic acts ‑‑ from Bob Dylan to Crosby Stills and Nash. They were the artists that really mattered.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14256 In the early years of Progressive Rock radio, the seminal moment was the Woodstock Festival. Of course, Woodstock became known as the granddaddy of all Rock festivals. There is just one slight problem ‑‑ Woodstock wasn't a Rock festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14257 What it was was based in Progressive Rock. Half of the acts on Woodstock on the bill were Folk acts. In fact, on the first day of Woodstock there were 11 acts on the bill and every single one of them, with one exception, was a Folk act.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14258 Richie Havens opened up; Country Joe was second; John Sebastian was third; The Incredible String Band, fourth; Sweetwater, fifth; Burt Summer, sixth; Tim Harden was seventh; Melanie was ninth; Arlo Guthrie was tenth; and Joan Baez closed the day's program. A complete day of Folk music to open the Woodstock Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14259 Looking back on Woodstock, people tend to remember Jimmie Hendricks and the Who smashing their guitars and feel that was the big deal. The headliners actually for Woodstock were acoustic Folk‑based acts: Crosby Stills and Nash. They were the headliners of the Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14260 So this raises the question: If Folk was such a big deal back then, why do we have numerous Rock formats but no acoustic formats today?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14261 Well, a funny thing happened in the evolution of FM radio. It became apparent in the early seventies that there was a demand for formats with softer music than Rock. And many wanted formats where you could put it on and listen to it in the background.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14262 And Folk musically honestly doesn't fit in the background. It's just not background. It demands your attention. It's the kind of music that demands that you listen to the lyrics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14263 At that time the Progressive Rock format got more into Rock. In this much harder Rock format, Folk didn't fit there either. Folk was left without a home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14264 There should have been two different formats that came from the two primary kinds of music that made up Progressive Rock. There should have been a Rock format and there should have been a Folk format. Instead of there being a Folk format, however, it became Soft Pop.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14265 As we move through the seventies, eighties and nineties, right up until today, we see that the Rock format has split into several different kinds of Rock, and the soft format into several different kinds of Pop.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14266 What has completely been lost are the founders of soft music, the Folk artists. They have really been without a home on the radio and yet they are a big part of the reason FM radio is so successful today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14267 MR. MacGONIGILL: Advances in technology were another factor making it difficult for Folk artists. The first sound systems were atrocious, but over time they got better and better. Like every new technology that comes along, people embrace it and then begin overusing it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14268 Amplified sound came into its own at live concerts. As the crowds got bigger and bigger, there was a demand for bands to get louder and louder. Loudness was one battle that the acoustic artists could never win. Some acoustic groups, like the Byrds, went with the flow and morphed into amplified Rock bands. Those that didn't were left in the dust.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14269 MR. PRINGLE: So what happened to the Folk artists who stayed true to their music? Did Folk basically just kind of die, like Disco and Urban Cowboy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14270 By every measure, Folk probably should have died right then and there. They were totally shut out by radio. They couldn't compete with the monster speakers used by the Rock groups in live concerts. That should have been the end.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14271 Defying logic, Folk music didn't die. It went underground. The Folk artists literally wouldn't let it die.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14272 The commitment to being a singer/song writer with real music and something to say was just too strong. Radio ignored them and later MTV also ignored them, but it didn't matter. The special thrill that comes through really bonding with a rapt audience sustained them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14273 They may have lost their mass audience, but they never lost their true audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14274 To understand why Folk music didn't die, you have to understand the audience for the music. They certainly noticed when radio stopped playing their music and they didn't like it. Nor were they happy with the lightweight Soft Pop that took its place. They wanted real music with real lyrics that meant something to them. The more difficult the mass media made it for them to hear this kind of music, the more passionate they became.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14275 Disproportionately, Canadian Folk singers stayed true to their music. You started with Gordon Lightfoot, Joni Mitchell, Buffy Sainte‑Marie, Leonard Cohen, Ian and Sylvia, on through Bruce Cockburn, and on and on it goes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14276 Those names are international music icons. The amazing thing is that nowhere today in Canada can you hear these artists on the radio. They are living legends and yet they get virtually no airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14277 If these are the legends, what about the new artists?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14278 Well, thanks to that passionate audience, Folk musicians in Canada are alive and well. They may not be exactly thriving, but they are certainly making a living. They are not as recognized as their talent warrants, because there is no radio exposure. And even those that get a little bit are not nearly as big as they should be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14279 So what is happening right now in 2006?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14280 A pretty good example would be the Maritime band from Newfoundland, Great Big Sea. Great Big Sea have had two or three hits and they have been played on the radio, but to get airplay they have to "rock‑up" their Folk sound.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14281 Despite this, of their nine CDs, one went gold, eight went platinum or multi‑platinum, and in total they have sold in the region of two million CDs in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14282 Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture. If they are selling that many CDs, why aren't they getting the kind of airplay accorded Bryan Adams and Shania Twain?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14283 And if they are only getting minimal airplay, how do they continue to manage to sell two million CDs in this country? And if they were getting airplay, how many CDs would they sell?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14284 Looking internationally, I would like to talk a little bit about a guy called Jack Johnson. "Jack who", you might ask. Well, he is an acoustic guitar player from Hawaii. He's a cool dude. He's an ex‑surfer. Anyway, he gets virtually no radio play and has had no hit single, and in spite of that has sold millions of CDs worldwide.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14285 In Canada, his first CD went gold; his second went platinum; his third double platinum. His latest, that was released last week, debuted in Canada at number one on the CD sales charts. And I just heard earlier today it is going to be number one again for the second week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14286 All of this without getting any airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14287 It just doesn't make sense that Jack Johnson, who the public has embraced in Canada to this extent, cannot be heard on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14288 The unplugged acoustic phenomenon is another indication that maybe commercial radio has got it wrong. It really shows that the public wants music that doesn't sound completely over‑produced but done in a pure, acoustic way. The unplugged phenomenon is huge, and there are probably more 50 major artists now who have put out unplugged albums.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14289 Because they are acoustic, they obviously get minimal airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14290 It's a sad fact that a kind of music that was largely responsible for all the different FM formats that we know today no longer has any place on the radio. Through all these years, the Folk audience has remained true to this music. They have bought great quantities of it on CD. They support it whenever it comes and plays live.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14291 And this in spite of the fact that 99 percent of it is absolutely unavailable on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14292 MR. MacGONIGILL: Calgary is a real centre for Folk music artists in Canada. I know these artists because I work with them every day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14293 I manage Karla Anderson, who was recently named the best new artist at the inaugural Canadian Folk Music Awards. Karla has great talent. She has great songs, but of course if you only listen to commercial radio you haven't heard her.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14294 I too think commercial radio has got it wrong, and let me tell you why.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14295 The American hit TV show "Joan of Arcadia" used just 15 seconds of Karla's song "What Else Can I Do" and that was enough to capture the hearts of the viewers. Following the show, Karla received hundreds of e‑mails asking where they could buy the CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14296 In fact, we knew when this show aired in different countries because the day after the show she would be bombarded by e‑mails from countries around the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14297 We have numerous outstanding acoustic artists in our area: Chad VanGaalen, a bright new artists on the Folk scene; Amos Garrett; David Wilkie; and Denise Withnell ‑‑ to name a few.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14298 Because their music is acoustic, they get no airplay on commercial radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14299 MR. ARMSTRONG: Almost exactly one year ago, we launched Project 10K20 in Edmonton. This was a program under which we funded 20 artists or groups with $10,000 each to help them make a CD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14300 As at our sign on, all 20 projects were fully funded and have been completed. One group, Bomba, has sold out their initial run of 2,000 pressings and has ordered a second run. All of the artists have received airplay on Magic 99.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14301 And here's what some of these artists have had to say about 10K20.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14302 Sheri Somerville said:
"Since the release of my Rawlco‑funded CD, I have heard two of my songs played every single day on Magic 99."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14303 A young artist, Brett Miles, said:
"Project 10K20 has allowed me to fulfil a musical goal and a vision that I have had for years, but I just couldn't afford to realize..."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14304 Sandy Foster reports that her CD (Marooned) has:
"... been well received on a national level and is making its way internationally as well."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14305 Mike Lent, who has been a professional, fulltime musician for 25 years, writes:
"... as a musician, producer, engineer and studio owner working on several 10K20 projects, I have been fortunate enough to be able to take my craft to a different level. We are a stronger musical community because Rawlco Radio has found a home in Edmonton."
LISTNUM 1 \l 14306 We believe that 10K20 is proving to be the most successful Canadian Talent Development initiative ever undertaken in Canadian radio, and with our first year's production we have been told that we are probably one of the biggest recording labels in North America.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14307 MS SILLANPAA: I am a jazz artist who has greatly benefited from Project 10K20. It was a wonderful experience because it allowed me to complete something that I have had as a goal for many years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14308 Project 10K20 addresses the major issues that unsigned artists face, which is getting funding for recording sessions, as well as getting exposure on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14309 My songs are now played on a daily basis on Magic 99, and since Rawlco sent my CD to the local Smooth Jazz station here in Calgary, I now hear four songs played here on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14310 Rawlco's approach will make a meaningful difference to the lives of Folk artists here in Calgary, just as it has with mine. It has helped me to kick‑start my career again, and for that I am forever grateful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14311 MR. ARMSTRONG: In addition to 10K20, we have two other important Canadian Talent Development Initiatives: "Showtime" and "Live at Five".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14312 Project 10K20, "Showtime" and "Live at Five" should not be looked upon as three independent projects but rather as a co‑ordinated approach to Canadian Talent Development where the whole is greater than the sum of the part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14313 Let me describe how we see this working.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14314 A Calgary Folk artist who has completed a CD through the support of Project 10K20 is then faced with the challenge of promoting and marketing the finished product. The first step is usually to hold a CD launch party at a Calgary club.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14315 Prior to the launch party, we will air their new music on our radio station and invite the artist to appear on "Live at Five" where we can spotlight the artist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14316 Next, we will have the artist participate in one of our heavily promoted monthly "Showtime" events. This will further help to build momentum for CD sales and provide the artist with an additional $2,000 that can be used for marketing and promotion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14317 Taken together, Project 10K20, "Live at Five" and "Showtime" will give Calgary and area Folk artists a real opportunity to build their careers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14318 Folk 100 will also make a major contribution to a vitally important event in Calgary, the Calgary Folk Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14319 Attended by 45,000 people each year, the Folk Festival is Calgary's second biggest annual event.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14320 We will support the festival with $50,000 annually ‑‑ money which is earmarked to support Canadian artists appearing at the festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14321 MS LEYLAND: Our application is for a specialty licence for a Folk‑based, acoustic FM station. It would be a first for Calgary and for Canada. It is a bold and innovative concept that would give Calgarians a truly different and distinctive choice on their FM dial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14322 Because it is so different, we feel we don't compete with any of the other applicants or existing stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14323 Almost all of the music we play is not on commercial radio today, and much of this music will be by new and emerging artists. Our 40 percent Canadian content is much greater than the CRTC minimums. As you know, the minimum for Category 2 is 35 percent, and Category 3 is 10 percent. We are 40 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14324 Our mature and educated audience will expect, and we will provide, comprehensive news, weather, sports and community information. The focus of our spoken word programming will be on music and culture in Calgary. In every way we will add real diversity and choice for Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14325 In closing, I would just like to highlight what I think are the most important parts of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14326 I will take a walk over here to the graphics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14327 First of all, we will play many different types of Folk and Folk‑oriented music, from the legends of Folk like Gordon Lightfoot and Bob Dylan, which will be spice on our radio station, to the many different forms of contemporary Folk and Folk‑based music that you see here: Modern Folk, Bluegrass Folk, Maritime Folk, Aboriginal Folk, just to list a few examples.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14328 All of these kinds of Folk and Folk‑based music share these very important characteristics, the three characteristics that define our music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14329 First and foremost, we are acoustic based. Our songs have meaningful lyrics that demand to be listened to. And perhaps most importantly of all, virtually none of this music is heard on commercial radio in Calgary today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14330 I would also like to summarize for you our Canadian Talent Development contributions, totalling $3,186,000 over our licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14331 First and foremost, Project 10K20 and its complementary programs "Showtime" and "Live at Five". We will make a significant donation to the Calgary Folk Music Festival to bring in even more Canadian Folk talent. There is also funding for our Canadian Talent Development Coordinator and to the Women in Media Foundation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14332 I believe that Rawlco Radio is uniquely qualified to launch Folk 100 in Calgary. I am very proud of our tremendous record of community service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14333 We have major market experience and a very experienced management team.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14334 Our owner lives right here in Calgary and Rawlco always keeps its promises.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14335 I hope you will agree that Calgary is the ideal market in all of the country for Folk radio. There is a hugely successful Folk Festival here. Country music is very popular in Calgary. Calgary has a booming economy and a very strong, rapidly growing radio advertising market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14336 Rawlco Radio is ready and more than able to launch this new concept, and we are a specialty applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14337 I hope you agree by the end of our presentation that now is the time and Calgary is the place for Folk 100.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14338 This concludes our formal presentation. We look forward to your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14339 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14340 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Leyland.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14341 Commissioner Williams will start with the interrogatory part of your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14342 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14343 Welcome, Ms Leyland and Rawlco panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14344 Your presentation was very thorough and eliminated some of my questions, so hopefully we can finish a little earlier today. But I still have quite a few to go through.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14345 I particularly enjoyed the passionate, historical review of Folk music given by Mr. Pringle in your opening remarks. That was certainly worthwhile to listen to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14346 Where I am going to start today is we are going to talk a bit about the rationale behind Rawlco's specialty FM format proposal to blend Category 3, Folk and Folk‑oriented music, with Category 2, acoustic‑based music, to determine the methodology in how Rawlco's classifies its Category 3 and how it would assure the Commission it would operate in compliance with its 30 percent minimum Category 3 music commitment at all times.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14347 We will spend a bit of time to define in precise terms who Rawlco is targeting to serve and why the Rawlco proposal is better than the other competing applicants vying to serve the 45‑plus demographic; and how and why Rawlco feels it can compete for 45‑plus listeners with the incumbent Calgary stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14348 That is the area that we will cover in the next 10 or 15 minutes or so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14349 My first question is: Your proposed specialty FM format would blend a minimum of 30 percent Category 3, Folk and Folk‑oriented music, with upwards of 70 percent primarily acoustic‑based Category 2 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14350 The proposed music mix is, for us, a totally new type of commercial format proposal, as you indicated in your opening remarks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14351 As an observation, I note this type of music mix is programmed on the CBC and on many community and community campus FM stations, albeit within specific programming blocks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14352 Why do you feel this type of music programming would be viable as a fulltime commercial FM format in general? And more specifically, why do you feel it would be successful in Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14353 You have offered some explanation, but if you could give us a bit more detail behind your rationale to choose this type of format for this marketplace, that would be very helpful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14354 MS LEYLAND: Certainly, Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14355 I really think there has never been a better time to do something like this than right now. The economy is booming, as everybody has commented on. The radio advertising market is growing rapidly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14356 Calgary has such a strong Folk music scene, which was a revelation to me coming from Saskatchewan where it is not the same theme at all. Calgary's Folk Festival is the second largest outdoor event in Calgary after the Stampede, which is amazing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14357 I was very surprised to hear about the number of clubs in Calgary that bring in live Folk artists as an indication of the extremely vibrant scene here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14358 I would like to ask Neil MacGonigill to tell us more about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14359 MR. MacGONIGILL: Calgary has a disproportionate interest in Folk, acoustic and roots music. We will touch on the Folk Festival, and we will also touch on commercial nightclubs presenting acoustic music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14360 But what makes Calgary so completely unique is the ten or more subscription‑based Folk clubs: the Calgary Folk Club has been in existence for 30 years. The Nickelodeon, the Bow Valley Folk Club, Saturday Night Special, the Rocky Mountain Folk Club, the Beneath the Arch concert series in Turner Valley, just to name a few.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14361 These events are held once or twice a month, Friday nights or Saturday nights, depending on the club. They are in community halls and most of them hold in the vicinity of 400 people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14362 They are subscription‑based and they are always sold out. Someone almost has to expire before you can get into these clubs. It's tough.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14363 They are a gold mine for touring acoustic artists. They pay well. They sell CDs like crazy. And you can come back on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14364 Another key point is they do not diminish concert sales. They are a completely separate situation. Artists like Ruthie Foster can come here from Texas, as she is next month. She is going to play two or three folk clubs in March.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14365 She is coming back in April and playing a brand new acoustic venue: the Knox United Church. It holds 800‑plus people. They have been doing the odd acoustic music show there, but they have recently introduced a reserve seating policy and now, as we speak, there is a great acoustic music series being programmed there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14366 Artists like Tom Russell ‑‑ Tom Russell lives in Texas ‑‑ was here last week. He played two folk clubs, Friday night and Saturday night, and then he did two shows in a nightclub in Inglewood District of Calgary called Ironwood. He did a Sunday afternoon show, sold it out; and he did a Sunday evening show, sold it out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14367 Four performances in three days; four sell‑outs and a ton of CD sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14368 Karen Kane and Kevin Welsh live in Nashville. They come here on a regular basis and they do great business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14369 Many times these clubs will put developing artists on the bill with the headliners. It is usually someone from the community, a local artist. It's a great way for these artists to gain experience and exposure ‑‑ not just exposure to the audience that they are playing for, but exposure to the artists that they are opening for. To have Tom Russell or Ruthie Foster or Karen Kane go back to their home town and talk about a Karla Anderson that they saw at one of these clubs is just a benefit that you can't put a price on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14370 Karla Anderson got an opportunity to open for a Welsh singer/song writer named Martin Joseph in a folk club. In that audience that night was Terry Wickham, the executive producer of the Edmonton Folk Festival. Terry heard Karla, a very new artist. He immediately hired her and put her on the Edmonton Folk Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14371 That's the way it should be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14372 She went from playing coffee houses to folk clubs to the Edmonton Folk Festival, and then won the best new emerging artist award at the Canadian Folk Music Awards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14373 That's how it should work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14374 All of this with no commercial airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14375 There is not a city in North America with the number of clubs and the quality of clubs that we have in Calgary. That's a fact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14376 Let's look at the commercial nightclub scene for a moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14377 Last night, Tuesday night, my artist Karla Anderson opened for Gordie Sampson at the Ironwood in Inglewood. Who is Gordie Sampson?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14378 In the past year Country superstar Keith Urban has recorded two Gordie Sampson songs. Faith Hill had finished recording her album when she heard one of Gordie's songs called "Paris". She rebooked the studio and went back in and recorded "Paris" and added it on her record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14379 As we sit here, the number one Country record in America is called "Jesus Take The Wheel". It was recorded by Kerry Underwood. The record has sold between two and three million copies. The writer of that song was a little dude from Cape Breton Island named Gordie Sampson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14380 Gordie Sampson can't get arrested in Canada. He can't get played on the radio. The show last night was sold out. It was phenomenal. I don't how many CDs Gordie sold, but Karla Anderson sold 26 CDs at $20 apiece in an audience of 150 people. The bulk of those people were couples, so 75 opportunities to sell a CD and she sold 26 of them. It was wonderful.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14381 This morning as you were probably arriving here in the snow storm, Karla Anderson and Gordie were on their way in station wagons to Edmonton, as musicians do. They play one night, they get up early the next morning and they drive in any kind of condition to go to the next venue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14382 Tonight that venue is the Arden Theatre in Edmonton. It holds 500 people. There will be 400‑plus people there. They will sell a lot of CDs. They will make some money. That's doing pretty good considering they don't get any airplay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14383 Finally, let me just say this about the Calgary Folk Festival.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14384 Over the last 25 or 30 years they have had their peaks and valleys. Over the last ten years there have been no valleys. It's all peaks. It has turned into one of the greatest venues for acoustic music in this country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14385 I have fond memories of Jan Arden, whom I managed for 13 years. She wanted to play the Calgary festival. It was a goal for her. When she finally did, she was over the moon. But when she got to do a side stage workshop with her hero Janis Ian, I'll never forget it: the tears in Jan's eyes, the tears in the audience's eyes. She was such a fan favourite and to see this local girl do good and sitting on the stage with her idol is something that we'll never forget.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14386 All of this is evidence of a very significant demand for Folk music in the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14387 Imagine what would happen if we had a Folk music station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14388 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Williams, if I could, I would like to ask our musical guy Doug Pringle to speak to why Calgary and why Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14389 MR. PRINGLE: You know, when I look at music I see four major genres. I see Rock, I see Pop, I see Country and I see Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14390 It is incredible to me that of the four major genres, Folk has no dedicated radio format. Even Jazz has a whole bunch of radio stations playing Jazz.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14391 On a conservative level, just doing my little straw poll asking people for every Jazz musician in Calgary how many Folk musicians there are, the general consensus seems to be about five times as many.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14392 I did my same little straw poll across the country, and it worked out about four times as many.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14393 I believe Folk music is Canada's music. Musically, we are a nation of singer/song writers. Some of the biggest names in the world ‑‑ and I mean anywhere in the world, if you travel ‑‑ are Canadians. I think you can go anywhere and ask them if they have heard of Leonard Cohen, if they have heard of Gordon Lightfoot, if they have heard of Joni Mitchell. These are internationally known artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14394 And yet in their very own country, with the huge interest that we have in this nation for singer/song writers, there is no Folk format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14395 To me, it almost feels like a no‑brainer. It's not a no‑brainer because obviously there isn't one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14396 But when I look at, first of all, the legendary music that has already been made, is already part of the Folk catalogue, and then we hear about the contemporary artists, a Canadian whose songs have been recorded at that level internationally, that is incredible. When that happens, the names usually are Shania Twain or Bryan Adams or Celine Dion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14397 A songwriter who can achieve a similar kind of world renown at that absolute peak level ‑‑ you are playing in the absolute big leagues here ‑‑ and yet can't get played on the radio in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14398 He is fabulous. I was at the show last night. The guy is amazing. He is incredible. He's driving through a snow storm. He's not even flying to Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14399 If you are asking why Folk, it's for the same reason that there always needs to be radio. If the quality of music is there in depth ‑‑ and it is ‑‑ and the audience is there, it's a natural marriage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14400 In this market particularly, we've got both the quality and the quantity of artists, and we've certainly got the audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14401 As you can tell, I feel a little strongly about this. I love this music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14402 When I started off in radio, I was playing this music. It was the best part of what I was playing on the radio. It's what I liked the most. I am not saying I didn't like Zeppelin and Floyd and all those guys; I did.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14403 But I loved the Folk artists because they were speaking to me. They got me right here in my heart. I was rockin to the rockers, but where I live, that's where these guys get you. We need more of that in music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14404 I don't know if I answered your question or not. I was rambling.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14405 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you have given us a thorough answer there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14406 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Commissioner Williams, we are putting Mr. Pringle down on the "undecided" category.
‑‑‑ Laughter
LISTNUM 1 \l 14407 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms Leyland, as a specialty FM format, you have committed to draw no less than 30 percent of your weekly music from sub‑Category 32 Folk and Folk‑oriented.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14408 This of course represents the minimum Category 3 commitment required as a specialty FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14409 Under this I note that you could program up to 70 percent of Category 2 music if you wished.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14410 If you believe this format will be viable over the medium and long term, why have you opted for the minimum Category 3 commitment rather than let's say a higher commitment of 50 or 60 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14411 MS LEYLAND: I wish I was a musical expert, but I confess I'm not. I am going to give this back to Mr. Pringle.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14412 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will just give a little bit more and then you can maybe give a full answer, as you did before.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14413 A minimum 30 percent Category 3 commitment and upwards of 70 percent Category 2 music commitment affords you a fair degree of programming flexibility. To perhaps alter your music mix into something other than what we are talking about today, what assurance can you give us that you would remain true to your format commitment should you not garner the audience levels projected in the short, medium or longer term?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14414 It's two questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14415 Why are you just doing the minimum and will you stay the course?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14416 MR. PRINGLE: Maybe I can answer that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14417 As much as I love Folk music, it's acoustic music that I'm really totally in love with. And I think it's unnatural to start putting precise definitions on music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14418 First of all, you can't. There is no musician in the world who has ever made something as something. They make music and then we put all this music in boxes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14419 The difference between CRTC definition Category 3.32 Folk music and I believe a lot of acoustic oriented Category 2 is either non‑existent or so finely different that it would be almost impossible to tell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14420 I think if you played this mix of music that I submitted here to the general punter out there who just likes music, they would say it is 100 percent Folk music, because it all sounds like Folk music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14421 The difference is, of course, that some of it may not technically meet the standard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14422 So what I have done here is when I have categorized some as Folk and some as Acoustic Category 2, I bet you 80 percent of what I categorized as Acoustic Category 2 I could equally well have categorized as Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14423 What I did was, if there was any doubt at all, I put it in as Acoustic 2. It makes no difference if you are playing the whole mix on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14424 What we are looking for is a radio station that is totally acoustic. Whether it is technically Folk or it is Acoustic Category 2, the public can't tell the difference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14425 That is why we have split the hundred up into those two different areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14426 In this hundred, for example, 53 percent is Category 3 Folk and 43 percent is Acoustic 2. In other words, 96 percent ‑‑ well, 96 of 100 songs are acoustic, and it all sounds like Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14427 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Mr. Williams, the other thing I would say is that we are always in compliance and we want to make sure we are in compliance. Because of this difficulty with the definition, we thought that 30 percent was something we could do for sure and then some.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14428 I think we have made it clear the type of radio station we will be. But because of the fineness of the difficulty of defining, we thought let's say as a minimum 30 percent. Then we know we will always be in compliance because it is our intention to play a significant amount more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14429 That was our plan. That is the reason why we did that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14430 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How exactly do you classify whether it is Category 2 or 3 again? I am not entirely clear on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14431 MR. PRINGLE: I start with the CRTC definition. That's the definition of Folk. But we are going to be a contemporary station because I also believe to be a successful Folk station, you can't be an oldies Folk station. You have to be contemporary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14432 We are going to be, for example, 80 percent from the 1990s onward. We are going to be 50 percent from the 2000s. We are only going to play 20 percent prior to 1990. So the legends of Folk are going to be obviously a huge part of the modern sound, but in terms of how much play they will get, 20 percent is the most they can get with what is happening today that is going to give this station power and legs going on into the future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14433 You have to look at contemporary Folk and what are its roots when you are defining it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14434 There are two main roots. There is traditional Folk, which obviously came over with the pioneers from Great Britain. And the chief purveyors of that are really in the Maritimes. Most of our Canadian Maritime Folk would have that particular root. It would have the traditional Folk music root.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14435 The other huge root for Folk music today is of course the golden age of Folk in the 1960s. We are talking about your Bob Dylans, your Gordon Lightfoots, your Ian and Sylvias, the legends of Folk, Joni Mitchell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14436 I would say that most of today's singer/song writer Folk singers ‑‑ Karla Anderson would be one, for example ‑‑ their root is to the golden age of Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14437 For me to classify something as Folk, I have to feel that those are the two roots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14438 If it's acoustic roots music, then I think I could categorize that as Folk, but I don't want to. I would rather categorize it as Acoustic 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14439 But you could categorize it and a lot of people, probably most people, would categorize that music as Folk. It certainly has one foot in Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14440 For example, Emmylou Harris, she can't get arrested on Country radio. So why is she called Country? She would probably say that most of what she does is Folk root stuff. But she's got the image of being Country, so I have categorized her as Acoustic 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14441 For example, Poverty Plainsmen recently did "America ‑ Sister Golden Hair". That's a Folk song. But they had a Country hit with it, so I am not going to count that as a Folk song. I will count it as an Acoustic 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14442 So when in doubt, I've always graded down or up, depending on how you want to look at it, because I want to make sure that I am in more than compliance. So there is no question at all that at least 30 percent, in this particular list 53 percent is Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14443 I want to make sure that if I am coding something Folk, it's really Folk. And if I have any doubts about it, I won't code it Folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14444 But the one thing that all the music is going to have in common, it's all going to be acoustic, it's all going to have meaningful lyrics, and it ain't gonna be played on the radio elsewhere.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14445 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I can just throw in one other comment, that is that I think our track record would show ‑‑ and we certainly give that commitment again ‑‑ we always keep our promises.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14446 You asked for what assurance could you have that we would not stray from our plan. I think that is a strong assurance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14447 In addition to that ‑‑ and I am sure you will get into this ‑‑ all of our financial projections and our audience projections are done on a very conservative basis as we know this is innovative, something new. So we have done it on that basis because of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14448 Quite frankly, we think we can do better than what we have projected in a lot of ways, but we have done things very conservatively because it is a new thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14449 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you both for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14450 Ms Leyland, in your supplementary brief you suggested that your station would appeal to older adults, 45‑plus, but also suggested that it would attract some tuning from younger adults in the 35‑plus age group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14451 What is the general demographic age group you expect to attract with your proposed format? And more specifically, what is the core demographic you would hope to serve?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14452 MS LEYLAND: Actually, I think this radio station is going to appeal to an incredibly wide range of ages. In part I draw this from our experience in Edmonton where it is amazing to me the age range of people who say they are enjoying our new Jazz radio station, from I can say kids in their early twenties through to people in their sixties.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14453 I think it is not a demographic. It is going to come down to: Do you like acoustic‑based Folk and Folk‑based music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14454 We always use the term demographics. That is sort of the word that has been used many times today. But in Rawlco we also talk, very importantly, about the psychographic because not all 45‑year‑olds are created equal, nor all 6‑year‑olds, nor all 20‑year‑olds.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14455 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. We heard yesterday that 50 is the new 35.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14456 MS LEYLAND: Something like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14457 I would like to ask Mr. Pringle to speak to psychographics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14458 MR. PRINGLE: Okay. Maybe I can also answer one of the questions you posed earlier, which is: How do we compete with some of the easy listening applicants who have been up here earlier on?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14459 It is a weird bird, this Folk format, in that it appears to be something and it is actually probably something else. That is because I don't think you can define it the way you define Pop and Rock radio: you know, the hard equals young; soft equals old, that kind of thing. I don't think you can do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14460 In terms of competing with the easy listening stations, the tempting thing to do is to say: Well, it's soft and they seem to be saying that they are going to get an older audience. Therefore, I imagine that's going to come from the easy listening pile ‑‑ not just easy listening, but the current AC station in town as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14461 That's not actually the case. The reason is because if you look at radio a different way, instead of looking at it formatically, if you look at it from the point of view ‑‑ when we talk about radio, it drives me nuts sometimes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14462 We always talk about it from the radio operator's point of view. The only reason we are doing this is for the people. The only reason we are in business is because they like what we do, listen to us and then support our advertisers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14463 I think we should always look at it from their point of view and what are their needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14464 There are two main reasons why people listen to the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14465 One is to be entertained and to be stimulated. So as programmers, if we want to attract that audience ‑‑ and notice, I didn't give a demographic here ‑‑ then we need to put on programming that is entertaining and stimulating.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14466 It generally tends to be newer, harder music. Stations tend to have names like Hot and Energy. New music is very important, because that is one of the most stimulating things that you can give an audience, is exciting new music. The production values on those stations tend to be exciting, up, great contests, win this, win that, lots of involvement with local concerts and stuff like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14467 If I could take you inside a music meeting, for example ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14468 The other thing, by the way, that I should mention is that if you are programming to that audience, then what you are really doing is you are programming to people who have put radio in the foreground of what they are doing at that moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14469 In other words, when they listen to the radio, it is foreground for them. They are actively listening to the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14470 Again, if I can put you into a music meeting, there will be a bunch of people and there will be quite a few records ‑‑ records; not even that, digital files. I much prefer records. Anyway...
LISTNUM 1 \l 14471 And there will be a lot of animated discussion. People will be pretty excited. One will go oh, yes, there will be somebody championing this to get on the radio, and another track will go and they will be championing that to get on the radio. Then finally there will be some decisions made, and usually there will be a couple, maybe even three, tracks added this week and there will be all kinds of stuff. "Oh, man, I can't wait until we get that on. People are not going to believe it when they hear that. The phone is going to ring off the hook when they year this." Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14472 That is the kind of general energy level that you are dealing with in the foreground radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14473 The other kind is people want something to relax to. Their lives are pretty stressful, for a number of different reasons, and one of the ways that they can relax is they can come home or they can be in the office where they are working and they can put on something that is in the background that is relaxing. It's smooth. It just feels nice. A lot of people like to use the radio for that. It's non‑intrusive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14474 So as a programmer, it is our job to program radio that is non‑intrusive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14475 For a background station, which basically is your ACs or your ‑‑ and ACs tend to have names like soft and light and easy ‑‑ or easy listening stations. The name says it all; it's easy listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14476 A music meeting they are at would be way more subdued. There would be way less songs that you are considering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14477 Where a song might turn over in 12 weeks on a foreground station, it might last for almost a year at high rotation, a big song, on a background station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14478 The kinds of words you would hear bandied about are "that will fit very nicely in the mix" and "yeah, that will work well". It's a much more clinical approach to putting the music together.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14479 Now, one music isn't better than the other. There is great music both ways. But the needs of the audience are different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14480 So where does Folk fit in? It's weird because on one hand musically it's soft, but its lyrics are loud. You can't put Folk music on in the background. It will keep sucking you into the radio to listen to what they are saying.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14481 So it's not background music. It shares more in common with the younger formats that are foreground than with the older formats that are background.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14482 I think in many respects we are going to repatriate a lot of people who currently are not listening to the radio because there is no acoustic. The biggest difference, of course, between the Folk station and all the other stations is the sound. Texturally Folk music sounds as different or a Folk station will sound as different to an AC or easy listening station as an AC or easy listening station sounds to a Rock station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14483 I guess maybe that was a long way of getting around to the point that no, I don't think we are in competition with easy listening or AC stations. I think we are complementary. I think that people come to us for foreground and to be stimulated. Lyrically, there is a lot going on in this kind of music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14484 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think our Chairman has a question for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14485 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question is now that we have heard the programming people, the music people, I want to move to the next office, of the national sales director.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14486 What type of demographic will he be targeting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14487 I am sure that he will not have the same passion that you have. He will be much more to the ground. He will say well, my clients are number crunchers. They need to have a target group. So I need to fork out my pitch. I need to put some numbers on my pitch.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14488 Which numbers will he be putting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14489 MR. PRINGLE: Well, I ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14490 MS LEYLAND: I would like to say that Gord has been selling since Marconi, so he would like to answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14491 MR. G. RAWLINSON: The research that we did, which is more specific and number‑oriented, showed that there was a higher proportion of other people who like Folk in the 45‑to‑65 year old age group. But there were positive responses from ‑‑ we surveyed from 25‑to‑64 year olds, and there was positive reaction to all those.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14492 But that is where would anticipate we will be the strongest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14493 I must say quite frankly that we don't think we will be the top‑rated station. In fact, we think we will probably one of the bottom‑rated stations. So we don't expect to get a lot of national advertising in any event. A lot of it will be out feet on the street, generating sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14494 THE CHAIRPERSON: There are also local sales offices and obviously they also use the same methodology as the national reps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14495 MR. G. RAWLINSON: They do. About half the business in radio business in Calgary is generated through local advertising agencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14496 But again, that won't be our strength because we won't be one of the top stations and the agencies tend to buy top stations; another reason why we are projecting not very significant revenues in this radio station. In general a couple of million dollars a year is not very much in this kind of market. We can generate that with no business from any advertising agencies. We will get some agency business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14497 MS LEYLAND: If I can add to that, we would draw on our experience in Saskatchewan and also in Edmonton when it comes to working with local clients here in Calgary. In Saskatchewan we have our news/talk radio stations which are not top‑rated radio stations, but there is an excellent quality of programming and a quality audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14498 And in Edmonton, similarly, we will not be a top‑rated FM station but we are attracting a quality audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14499 So it is talking to the advertiser about the kind of person that is listening to the radio station and building the case from there as opposed to using numbers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14500 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I can add one more thing, that is the difference between foreground listening and background listening, it is a sales technique that we use a lot when we are selling on behalf of our news talk stations and also we will use on this station. And that is that when you are listening to the radio in the foreground, you hear the commercials. When it is background, you don't hear them as much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14501 So it is a very effective way to advertise. As a result, we can get a higher rate than we would with the same level of audience with a background type station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14502 We have done that in many markets over many situations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Say for a straight ‑‑and I appreciate all the nuances that you have introduced, but you are of the view that we will be catering more to the 45‑to‑64 demographic. That is what we wanted to hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14504 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14505 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14506 Mr. Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14507 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of course, you can tell us some things we don't want to hear as well, but it is probably better the other way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14508 Given that your core market is the 45‑plus adult listener ‑‑ and I appreciate that you have told us there is the full demographic from I guess 20 to 60. I hope it doesn't all end at 60. So the 45‑to‑60 adult listener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14509 Each of the format proposals of your competing applicants is based on providing a service to what they have identified as an underserved demographic group. While your format would target the same general age group, the rationale behind your specialty FM format appears to be based more on adding musical diversity to the Calgary market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14510 Why do you feel that your format would be the better choice to serve the 45‑plus adult listener in Calgary as compared to some of the other applicants?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14511 MS LEYLAND: First of all, Commissioner Williams, we really don't see it as an either/or. We really believe that we are not competitive with the other applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14512 Yes, that is contributing diversity first and foremost. But I think that is a very, very important aspect of this whole proceeding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14513 The others are all some version Category 2, easy listening, playing either older or newer amplified Pop or Soft Rock, and we are the only specialty acoustic‑based applicant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14514 Gord.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14515 MR. G. RAWLINSON: It is our contention that whether or not you license an easy listening station in addition to ours, it would make zero difference to us. We will be so different that immediately you will know that we are different.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14516 Our case is based on the musical diversity and not the demographic diversity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14517 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I take your point. That is a good point.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14518 We have come through that area. Thank you for helping us understand it better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14519 The next MO I am moving into is local reflection and spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14520 You have made a commitment to provide approximately 16 hours of scripted spoken‑word programming each week. This includes 11‑and‑a‑half hours of news and related surveillance programming, plus 4‑and‑a‑hours of spoken word contained within a number of special feature programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14521 Would you outline your plans regarding programming staff? In particular, I would be interested in your staffing plans for the newsroom in respect to on‑air talent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14522 MS LEYLAND: Certainly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14523 We will have 24 full‑time staff, specifically programming staff. We will have a staff of eight, one person who will be program director, music director ‑‑ music's extremely important on our station, obviously ‑‑ plus five announcers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14524 We will also have two other positions, two writer/producer positions for putting together the spoken‑word features that we have outlined.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14525 In the newsroom, we will have a staff of four, so one news director, who, most likely, will anchor the news in the morning, plus three other news people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14526 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. On a daily and weekly basis, how many hours would you offer live‑to‑air programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14527 MS LEYLAND: We will be live from six o'clock in the morning until midnight.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14528 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If your application is approved, do you have any plans to share programming synergies with your Calgary station and your Edmonton station, or with any of your Saskatchewan stations? And if there are synergistic opportunities, could you outline what these would be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14529 MS LEYLAND: No. The station will be so different from anything we have in Saskatchewan or, obviously, in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14530 MR. G. RAWLINSON: We will have the same president.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14531 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. Maybe some shared corporate work, I'm thinking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14532 What I'm going to try and determine with this next question is why Rawlco is proposing a blended weekly Canadian content calculation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14533 Over the past two years, we have heard one or two similar proposals for blended weekly Canadian content calculations. Our concern with blended calculations is that it leaves open the possibility that Canadian selections from either musical content category could be underrepresented and programmed at a level lower than the minimum weekly regulatory requirement for 35 percent for Category 2 music and 10 percent for Category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14534 If we look at your sample music list that you provided of a hundred selections, as we discussed earlier, even if some of your Category 3 is reclassified as Category 2, approximately 37 out of the 100 selections suggested would seem to qualify as Category 3 music. Of these 37 songs, 18 are Canadian, for a 48 percent Canadian content level. Of the remaining 63 Category 2 songs, 26 would qualify as Canadian selections, for a 41 percent Canadian content level in Category 2 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14535 In light of these observations, my question is this: why propose a blended weekly Canadian content calculation when it appears from your sample music list that you would have no problem meeting either the minimum 35 percent Category 2 or the minimum 10 percent Category 3 Canadian content requirement?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14536 MR. G. RAWLINSON: The short answer is because it's so hard to know to classify whether they are Category 2 or Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14537 But if I could just point out something, because I'm proud of this, I think we are going to ‑‑ our application proposes a higher percentage of Canadian music than any other applicant relative to what the CRTC minimums are. If I can just take you through this graphic that we just put up ‑‑ and this is on the assumption that we were playing the bare minimum of 30 percent Category 3, it could higher ‑‑ but if out of every 100 songs we play, in that example, there would be 70 songs that would be Category 2 and 30 songs that would be Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14538 The CRTC Cancon minimum for each of those types of songs is 35 percent in Category 2 and 10 percent in Category 3. So to meet the CRTC minimum, in Category 2 we would have to play 24.5 songs and 3 songs out of Category 3. That's 70 x 35 equals 24.5 and 30 x 10 percent equals 3, a total of 27.5 songs, and yet our commitment is 40 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14539 So when you compare that to an applicant where their minimum is 35 percent and they say they will play 40 percent, our minimum is 27.5 and we will play 40. If we play a higher percentage of Category 3, the minimum that we would have to play actually goes down.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14540 For example, if out of a hundred songs we played 50 songs of Category 3, because the 30 percent for Category 3 is a minimum, if we played 50 songs of that and 50 songs of Category 2, the minimum goes down to, I think, 21.5 that we would have to play in total, and yet we are still going to be 40 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14541 So the more Category 3 we play, the higher we exceed the CRTC minimum, but our commitment is a blended 40 percent, and we just did that because of the uncertainty of what is counted in Category 3 and what in Category 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14542 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14543 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Does that answer the question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14544 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14545 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why do I get the feeling they were ready for that question?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14546 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's a bit of anticipation there, I think.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14547 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's also a Canadian content distribution regulation. This regulation requires licensees to devote 35 percent or more of Category 2 music broadcast between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. Monday to Friday to Canadian selections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14548 How would you operate in compliance with this regulation using a blended calculation model that would also include Category 3 music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14549 MR. G. RAWLINSON: What we are going to do is we are prepared to commit that we would be 35 percent 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., regardless of what type of music it would be. So, again, that would be substantially in excess of what the minimum would be because some of that is obviously going to be Category 3.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14550 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Regarding Category 3 Canadian content requirements, the regulation states that,
"Category 3 Canadian content must be scheduled in a reasonable manner throughout each broadcast day". (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14551 How would your Category 3 Canadian music be scheduled to comply with this regulation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14552 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I think it's the same answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14553 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The same answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14554 MR. G. RAWLINSON: We are prepared to accept a condition of licence that we would be 35 percent, as well, Category 3, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14555 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Our staff will make note of that willingness to accept that as a condition of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14556 Now, I will work into the area of Canadian talent development. In your November 4, 2005 deficiency response, you indicated you would maintain your $10,000 annual commitment to support the Women in Media Foundation, should it not qualify as eligible CTD expense, and reduce your overall annual commitment to Canadian talent development by $10,000 from $418,000 to $408,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14557 Would you be prepared to accept the $10,000 annual commitment to support the Women in Media Foundation as a separate condition of licence outside the CTD funding?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14558 MS LEYLAND: Yes, we would.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14559 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14560 Let's talk about some of your initiatives. "Live at Five", I would like to learn a little bit more about your proposed "Live at Five" initiative. As well as giving folk and roots artists on‑air exposure, it will also provide you with regular weekly programming on a fairly consistent basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14561 Perhaps you could explain to us why this initiative, and the $500 given to artists to perform on the program, should not be seen as more of a cost of doing business than CTD. And if the Commission deems this director to be ineligible of CTD funding, would Rawlco be prepared to redirect the $50,000 per year to another CTD initiative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14562 MS LEYLAND: First of all, I will ask Doug Pringle to talk to you about "Live at Five" and tell you more about the concept. We have done that before.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14563 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm just going to find my page ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14564 MR. PRINGLE: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14565 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: ‑‑ to just go along with your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14566 Okay, I'm ready.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14567 MR. PRINGLE: The basic concept of "Live at Five" is very simple. The absolute most exciting way you can hear music is live, yet you hardly ever hear live music on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14568 I think there's a good reason for that. With today's huge production values for most artists, it's almost impossible for them to come in and play live. There are maybe a couple of formats that can happen. One is country, if they strip themselves right down. Of course, the other is folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14569 When we had our country station in Toronto, KISS‑FM, we had the biggest acts in country music, including Garth Brooks, come in and play, play their acoustic guitar live. We also had some of the real up and coming young Canadian talent, people like Jim Witter and Cassandra Vasic and, yes, believe it or not, a young Shania Twain, come play "Live at Five".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14570 I got to be honest, I stole this idea from myself when I was CHOM, when I used to frequently have folk singers. When they came through town, I would have them come on, they would play live. It was incredible, almost every time they would play live, even though we were playing their music and the tickets weren't moving, when they played live on the radio it's incredible how often they were sold out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14571 But Don has got, yeah, some more additional information for you about what we going to plan to do here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14572 MR. ARMSTRONG: As Doug said, the idea is the artist, once they get their CD in hand, they want airplay, and we will provide airplay, but to have the opportunity to play live on the air is a wonderful experience. Prime time drive, 5 p.m., we will do this twice a week, all year long, and give the artist $500 for so doing. And $500 for an artist starting out is a lot of money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14573 MR. G. RAWLINSON: You were saying: why shouldn't this be counted as a part of our programming expense? The fact is that most artists would pay us to get on there, so this is not something that is considered to be something that ‑‑ I mean, we could do it, probably, and do it for free. We are paying them just to help them along and give them some more money to further their careers, but I think writing a cheque to artists is one of the best things you can do in Canadian talent development.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14574 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you agree with that, Ms Sillanpaa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14575 MS SILLANPAA: Yes, I would.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14576 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you had the opportunity to perform live in the Edmonton radio station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14577 MS SILLANPAA: Not at the Edmonton, no, I haven't, as of yet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14578 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you at other radio stations, then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14579 MS SILLANPAA: I have performed live on CKUA, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14580 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14581 Your CTD commitment includes funding to underwrite a salary of a CTD coordinator position for seven years, at a cost of $60,000 per year, or $480,000 over seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14582 Now, you indicate this person would have 100 percent involvement and responsibility to oversee your project 10K20 initiative, the "Showtime" initiative and the "Live at Five" initiative. This would represent a total seven‑year budget of $2.286 million.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14583 Okay, while the budget is substantial, perhaps you could outline in more detail exactly what duties and responsibilities the CTD coordinator would have in overseeing these various initiatives? And, of course, should the Commission decide that the CTD coordinator position does not qualify as eligible CTD expense, would Rawlco redirect the $480,000 in funding to another eligible initiative or reduce its overall seven‑year commitment by $480,000?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14584 MS LEYLAND: A couple of comments, Commissioner Williams, and then I will ask Don Armstrong to speak to this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14585 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14586 MS LEYLAND: I'm quite passionate about this because I have seen how hard two of the people at our panel have worked on project 10K20 in Edmonton, and programs they are outlining here for Calgary are even more extensive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14587 As I mentioned, Don Armstrong and Dave Babcock, Don is our project manager, and Dave is our executive producer in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14588 So, Don, over to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14589 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, first off, with respect to the Calgary application, there are the two initiatives that you indicated, "Showtime" and "Live at Five", which do require a fair amount of organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14590 With "Showtime", what we will be doing there is producing 12 concerts per year in a live local venue, two artists, two Canadian artists, appearing at each concert, widely promoted on the air, each participant in the concert would receive $2,000. So it's $4,000, 12 shows a year, $48,000. There's a lot of organization to do in that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14591 As well, you identified the "Live at Five" initiative, and that would be under the director, as well, in terms of setting up and arranging for those artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14592 In terms of the day‑to‑day management of project 10K20, this is huge. Dave Babcock has completed one year of having done that for us in Edmonton, and he, probably better than I, can tell you specifically ‑‑ like, I know what he does, but I would like you to hear him tell you what he does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14593 Dave.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14594 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Can I just interject for one thing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14595 We didn't put this in our Edmonton application for the station there. We did not put the Canadian talent coordinator money into our proposals, but we have been paying this money anyway, because it was just required to do to make it happen. So we know that this is a necessary expenditure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14596 But Dave can maybe give you just a bit more background.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14597 MR. BABCOCK: Yes. As executive producer of the 10K20 project in Edmonton, essentially my role is two‑fold. I act as a full‑time adviser to Rawlco Radio Limited on all musical aspects, questions and what have you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14598 As far as the 10K20 project itself, I'm working with the artists pretty much on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, from the time their application is approved right to the finish mastered state of the album, going through all the four phases involved in recording the album, which are essentially the preproduction, the recording, the mixing and the mastering, in order to produce a finished master copy, which eventually goes to Rawlco and to Magic 99, and onto the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14599 Every artist is different, and there are 20 of them, so this process you go through 20 times, with each artists, and let me tell you, it kept me hopping big time.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14600 MR. BABCOCK: So as far as that goes, it's also been an incredibly positive and enjoyable experience for me and for all the artists involved. Just inasmuch as a year‑and‑a‑half ago there would have been nothing on that board, and today, as you can see, there are 20 finished albums of great music by Edmonton artists. I would imagine, that it would be the exact same result here in Calgary, should this application be approved, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14601 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Babcock, you are an entertaining artist yourself, are you not?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14602 MR. BABCOCK: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14603 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So if they keep you hopping, how do you find time to pursue your passion?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14604 MR. BABCOCK: I'm also a juggler.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14605 Mr. BABCOCK: Yeah, it's been a learning experience this first year, but, you know, it's all about having passion for what you are doing. Also working with such a great team, you know, working with guys like Doug Pringle and John Armstrong. Everyone at Rawlco has been so supportive and helpful in every aspect of my duties, so having a great team on board is key in all of this, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14606 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Williams, if I may just add to that, Dave mentioned the fact that a year ago that board would have been empty, and we are very, very proud of the fact that in the year prior to our signing on we have been able to produce 20 albums like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14607 And Dave is a little modest in actually what he does in it, because if I could just be a little more specific ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14608 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14609 MR. ARMSTRONG: ‑‑ on how we deal with it, we identified artists that we felt possess some talent and could, with the proper direction, produce an album that might merit airplay. We invited them to apply. When that application ‑‑ with our having the opportunity to observe them or hear some demo, if that application were approved, I phoned each of them and spent 20 to 40 minutes on the phone, explained how the process would work, how the funding would be released, how the determination would be made for airplay at the conclusion of the project, if any, and then we sent them a cheque for $1,000 to help them with their preproduction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14610 That cheque was sent to Dave. Dave sat down with the artist, gave them the cheque, and then worked on the preproduction: what kind of songs do you want to work on? Where do you feel you can produce? What's your strength? Where's your weakness? What do you want to do with this?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14611 Then, when that phase was complete, Dave would say to me, "Okay, Army, I think they're ready to go into the studio", so we would requisition a further $5,000 to help them with their recording.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14612 He, again, would take them the cheque, they would acknowledge receipt of it, and Dave would visit them regularly in the studio, helping them along, and, prior to going in the studio, would say, "What studio do you plan on using? Do you know how many side musicians you will need? What about a producer? What about a graphic artist? Have you thought the whole project through?".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14613 As an adviser, he would help build the budget, help them with their preproduction, and then be with them, literally, holding hands through the recording phase. And once the recording was complete, we then sent them $3,000 for mixing and $1,000 for mastering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14614 I think we were very pleasantly surprised at the prudent and diligent manner in which all those artists managed the funds. Not one artist came up short and said, "You know, I've run out of money. I can't complete my project".
LISTNUM 1 \l 14615 We think that by Dave's constant presence, it instilled in them a sense of financial responsibility and a sense of urgency. In fact, I hadn't planned on it, but Johanna completed her project in less than six months, right? From the time we received your application until the album was complete was six months.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14616 MS SILLANPAA: Yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14617 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14618 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I could just throw one quick comment, you may be getting tired of hearing about Edmonton, because, of course, us Calgarians, you know, being Calgary Flames fans, we hate Edmonton, but the reason we keep mentioning that is because we are so proud of this program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14619 Of course, we are proposing the same program here, this 10K20 program, and it's just been wildly successful. We can now say that we have a proven, effective Canadian talent program. In fact, it's the best program I have ever seen in all my years of radio. So that's why we are referring to this, because we are so excited and we are so sure that it will be the same thing here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14620 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14621 MR. ARMSTRONG: If I may just add one thing, Rawlco is certainly not short on imagination, and the reason for doing 10K20 in Edmonton similarly to the way in which it's being done in Edmonton is, as Gord said, I mean, it just works that well. It's just terrific.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14622 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. And your artists have confirmed that on the record today, as well. So that's great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14623 I want to spend a bit of time clarifying your application's audience share projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14624 We note that deficiency projections you filed with your November 10, 2005 response indicates no growth in audience share through the later years of the first licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14625 Why have you predicted no growth in the later part of the licence term?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14626 MS LEYLAND: In all cases we project very conservatively, and say we are here in Alberta. But we project very conservatively, so therefore the three share.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14627 Yeah, I think there is more potential than that. I really, really do. If you haven't heard something, you don't know if you like it, and I'm confident a lot of people are going to fall in love with this music that don't even know that they like it at the present time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14628 We are always striving to do better. Gord and I won't be happy if we are still a three share after seven years. We will be trying to do everything we can to grow the audience. But our projections are very conservative. We want to show to ourselves and to the Commission that at 3 percent audience share we will be viable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14629 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14630 The study conducted by Cameron Strategy Inc. notes that,
"Only persons currently listening to radio were surveyed. In addition, no one over the age of 64 was surveyed". (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14631 Given the results of the survey that suggests that interest in folk and roots music tends to increase with the age of the respondent, do you think that the study may have failed to measure a potential audience target group, those north of 65?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14632 MS LEYLAND: An interesting question. Quite likely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14633 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yeah, it may have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14634 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It may have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14635 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes. Almost all advertising, as Commissioner Arpin was saying, that focuses on demographics, tends to be ‑‑ in fact, over half the buyers are 25‑54, so to go to 64 was stretching it from that demographic world. So that's why we choose that. But people over 64 buy things and shop in retail stores, so if we were granted this licence we will certainly be talking about that, as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14636 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, one applicant was talking about his father earlier in this hearing actually buying a satellite radio, so I'm aware that they are still buying a lot of innovative products at that age.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14637 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14638 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By excluding from the sample persons not currently listening to radio, do you think that the study could have overlooked a segment of the population who might have expressed an interest in your proposed format? I think you mentioned in your presentation a few times that you would hope to bring people that currently aren't listening back to radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14639 MR. PRINGLE: I don't want to get too excited, but, as we speak, I think there is a phenomenon beginning to develop at the university level. The Jack Johnson phenomenon that we are talking about is almost exclusively being driven by 19‑, 20‑, 21‑year‑olds. I mean, this guy is so cool with them. You know, he's ex‑surfer dud.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14640 They don't call it folk. They call it laid back music. So their folk is kind of, you know, beards and banjos and stuff. But there's a whole acoustic little young artist thing that's happening ‑‑ Jack Johnson, Jason Mraz, John Mayer ‑‑ and it's being driven by the same demographic that drove the golden age of folk, the Bob Dylans and the Joni Mitchells. That came out of the campuses and the universities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14641 So it's early days yet, but I think that we might well see ‑‑ because, again, it goes across age groups. You either like acoustic music or not, and I don't think it really matters how old you are, and it seems to be that at the university level there's a lot of people getting into this acoustic music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14642 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of Jack Johnson's four CDs, I think he's put out ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14643 MR. PRINGLE: Yeah, yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14644 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: ‑‑ which of the four has enjoyed the most commercial success.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14645 MR. PRINGLE: None ‑‑ almost none. How do you quantify?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14646 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sold the most.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14647 MR. PRINGLE: Oh, have sold the most. Oh, he has dramatically increased through word of mouth with each CD. Like in Canada, the first CD sold gold.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14648 Then, of course, people playing, talking about it, so when the second CD comes out, there's just more people aware of it through word of mouth, that went platinum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14649 Third CD, again, more word of mouth, that went double platinum
LISTNUM 1 \l 14650 And then the outrageous situation of debuting at number one on the Canadian CD sales chart, I mean, that's just ‑‑ I mean, with no airplay, that's incredible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14651 So I have no idea how many this will sell, but I would imagine it will outdo the third one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14652 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm personally a tough sell, but I think you have convinced me to invest in one of them for the drive back to Edmonton this weekend.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14653 MR. PRINGLE: You will like him. He's great. Get the new one. The new one's the best one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14654 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14655 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Williams, I wonder if I could just ask Neil to perhaps tell you a story that I found fascinating about one of his young artists here, Chad Van Galen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14656 MR. MacGONIGILL: Chad Van Galen is a very interesting young cat here in town whose dad is a well‑known artist, Doug Van Galen, so he comes from a creative family.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14657 Chad holed up in his bedroom. I don't know if his parents probably didn't see him for a couple of years, or two or three years. What he was doing in there was building instruments out of, I'm not sure, things he had in his bedroom.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14658 He built a number of instruments, some conventional, some unconventional, and he learned how to play them all. While he was doing that he wrote in the vicinity of 300 songs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14659 He's also a graphic artist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14660 So Chad, in the past year, completed an album, and he did the package, he played all the instruments, he recorded it on his dad's vintage gear: reel‑to‑reel tape recorders, 4‑tracks and bouncing things back and forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14661 Honestly, when you first hear Chad's record, you think, "What is this?". I mean, it's not Gordon Lightfoot by any stretch of the imagination.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14662 He sings in a falsetto, very much like Neil Young. People compare his vocal to Neil Young and to the early Neil Young records.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14663 Chad put out his record independently, sold it through the MegaTune stores here in town.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14664 It's been on the charts since the day it was released, and he's started gigging. And if you see Chad Van Galen, you don't see many people playing a guitar and a drum kit at the same time, but he can do that, and he does it regularly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14665 He opened a show for the Pixies at the university last year and the year‑end poll in the city, from the city music journalists and music critics and stuff, the favourite performance by any artist in the past year in this city was Chad Van Galen opening for the Pixies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14666 Chad recently signed to Sub Pop, a Seattle‑based label, a very prestigious major Indie, and he's on tour in the U.S. as we speak opening shows for hot bands, Canadian bands, Arcade Fire, and the like, and he's playing the most prestigious clubs in America at this point in time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14667 He's a solid Calgarian. He has absolutely no intention of leaving here. He should be heard. He's amazing. His records are blowing people's minds. The reviews, if you go on the Internet and google Chad Van Galen, you will be blow away by the reviews that are coming in from this kid from Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14668 It's just one of the success stories in this town. There's a bunch of them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14669 So Chad is definitely not a beards and banjos guy. He's the new leading edge of folk music. As Doug was talking earlier about where they draw their inspiration from, and if you go back and listen to those early Neil Young records, and that ilk, you know, they are edgy, but they are folk and they are acoustic and they are ‑‑ really, when I first got his record, I thought, "What is this?", you know, and now I can't take it out of my CD player. It is phenomenal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14670 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Geez, you guys are pretty good. Now I got a CD for my ride back, too.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14671 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to talk a bit about your demand study and its effect on deriving your advertising revenue projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14672 Would you please discuss how you used the results of the study conducted by Cameron Strategy Incorporated to derive advertising revenue projections consistent with your projections of audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14673 MR. G. RAWLINSON: First of all, the research showed that we could likely have an even higher audience share than what we are projecting. In fact, they only way they were able to ‑‑ when they came up with our final estimate was to say, "Well, we'll take it in half what the research shows". That's, I think, a pretty pragmatic thing to do. People will say, "Oh, yeah, I like that", but will they really become core listeners, I don't know, so we cut it down to half. So we said approximately a three share of the audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14674 The total revenues in Calgary, the latest figures we have, and I don't know if you have seen those, but there's an outfit call Tram that reports them monthly, and it shows that Calgary's radio revenues are $78 million in the latest 12 months.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14675 Our first‑year projection of $1.9 million is 2.4 percent of that, and that's based on current revenues, whereas our $1.9 million would be done, assuming we are licensed and then get on the air ‑‑ that's a year, a year‑and‑a‑half from now ‑‑ I'm guessing that the revenues for Calgary could be $85 million or $90 million by that time. So it would be even a lower percentage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14676 Going right through to the seventh year, we are projecting only $3.3 million in revenue. And if the revenues were, say, $90 million, only $90 million seven years from now, which is very conservative, that's 3.6 percent of the revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14677 So we started with conservative audience projections, and then we converted those into ultraconservative revenue projections. I will not be happy at all if this is all the audience we do or all the revenue we do. We think we can do significantly more than that, but this is something new and it's innovative, it's pioneering, so we thought it prudent to be conservative and careful in presenting our plans to you so that you could feel confident, if you choose to license us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14678 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14679 You indicate on page 11 of your November 4, 2005 response the deficiency questions that,
"...30 percent, or approximately $570,000 of your projected year one revenue, will come from advertisers currently placing ads on other media, such as newspapers and magazines". (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 14680 What factors did you take into account arriving at this percentage?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14681 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Mr. Williams, I have to answer this honestly, and that is that, quite frankly, we think these questions are impossible to answer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14682 I have launched radio stations where we were very experienced in the market and we were adding one more station to it, and, in hindsight, we had no idea where the money comes from. It just isn't possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14683 Some advertisers will tell you, many won't tell you where they have taken it from. On a specific case you can say, "Well, I know that I got that guy's budget cause he said he wasn't going to..." ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14684 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So it's just a best guess, then, I guess?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14685 MR. G. RAWLINSON: It's based on our experience and a best guess. But I think anybody that can answer this with any precision, I mean, there's just no way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14686 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's future for them, right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14687 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yeah.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14688 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I would love to meet them.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14689 MR. G. RAWLINSON: What we are really saying here is that it will come from a number of different sources. The most important thing about our revenue projections is that a fair chunk of our revenues, a significant chunk of our revenues, will come from non‑advertising agency‑type buys. They will be pure retailers that will buy based on, "Help me get people into my store and...", you know ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14690 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14691 MR. G. RAWLINSON: ‑‑ "...if you have got the right demos" ‑‑ and we will have good demos as far as it be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14692 Our research shows that it will be a little higher income, a little better educated audience than the average person. So that's the best thing that we can tell you about our revenues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14693 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14694 Just give me a second just to refresh myself with this question.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14695 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Has Rawlco decided to explore possible alternative frequency choice, in view of the number of applications received in the available frequency choices?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14696 MS LEYLAND: Gord will speak to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14697 MR. G. RAWLINSON: When we were searching for a frequency for this application, we did a lot of work on it. My experience in radio, which goes back too many years to speak of, is that, in general, the best frequency in the market goes to the most deserving and best applicant, therefore, it's the best use of the spectrum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14698 We picked 100.3 because it's our contention it is the third best frequency in the market. We did not pick 90.3 or 92.9 because we thought that those are actually better frequencies. And because we were going to be a specialty format, a niche station, we felt it was appropriate that we would pick not the very best frequency. But we also want to be able to cover the city well, so it's a directional frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14699 Obviously, we would be thrilled if we were licensed to be awarded either of the other two, but we are quite happy with the one we have applied for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14700 The only other applicant that has applied for that frequency is an applicant for Airdrie. It's our contention that they may very well deserve a licence, but to just cover Airdrie does not need much power. So it would be a shame to use a frequency that can be used for 100,000 watts to cover the city really clearly, the whole city of Calgary, on Airdrie, where it could be niche frequency, a frequency that would work for several thousand watts. I believe that their application proposes an average of 3,600 watts and a maximum of 6,000 watts. So when you get down to a lower power, there's more options for frequencies, so that's our position on frequencies.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14701 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14702 Well, Mr. Chair, I think we have arrived near the end sooner than we thought, which is good, given the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14703 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14704 We will now ask Commissioner Langford, who has a few questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14705 MR. LANGFORD: I'm almost scared to ask this question. Somebody put a gag on Pringle over there ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14706 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑ so we can get out of here for dinner before it's breakfast time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14707 MS LEYLAND: If I knew how to gag Pringle!
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14708 MR. LANGFORD: I like Johanna's laconic approach of yes and no.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14709 MR. LANGFORD: One observation, first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14710 Kind of listening to Mr. MacGonigill speaking earlier and kind of thinking of Handel, because there's no more valleys, every valley has become exalted now, it's all peaks and everything's going great, you are not worried that you are going to wreck it, are you? I mean, it's doing so great without any FM radio, you are not worried that somehow you are going to ruin some magical underground thing that's happening across Canada here?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14711 MS LEYLAND: I see Neil shaking his head, and I'm sure he has a thought or two for you, quickly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14712 MR. MacGONIGILL: By all means we are not going to ruin it. Just imagine what can happen if more people hear these artists. There's some brilliant artists out there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14713 It's frustrating. I see these artists, brilliant young artists, working hard and making records, and knowing full well when they make them that the chances of getting them played on commercial radio is poor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14714 No, we have got lots of room to grow, lots of room to grow. It's exciting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14715 MR. LANGFORD: Just that people who like to be kind of on the outside and into some wonderful thing that they think they have discovered may not want to blast it all over the place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14716 MR. MacGONIGILL: You know, what, I'm the king of living on the outside. I know it very well. In the early days with Jan Arden we had two mottos: two people can't be wrong and happiness is a dial tone. And it took time. It took five years before we got a deal, and they were five hard years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14717 The truth of the matter is, by the time Jan sold 2 million records with the song "Insensitive", it was more fun in the early days. There is a change. There's a dynamic change when you start selling a lot of records, but it's such a struggle. We lose so many of our talented artists because they just can't afford, financially or emotionally, to stay in this business long enough to make it. And the problem is they aren't getting heard by enough people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14718 It's not that people don't like their music, it's just that they don't get an opportunity to hear it. And we need to do something about that. We need to let these people be heard. It's important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14719 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Langford, could I ask Neil just to share one more story, and it will be quick, and it's about an artist who we all know by name, Ian Tyson, and your lunch with Ian a couple of weeks ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14720 MR. MacGONIGILL: I used to manage Ian Tyson. You want to talk about a touch job.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14721 MR. LANGFORD: It could have been Johnny Cash.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14722 MR. MacGONIGILL: It could have been something easy like Johnny Cash, yeah.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14723 Ian's a great guy, he's a proud guy, and I learned a terrific amount from him when I managed him, but it was difficult. But he and I ‑‑ I don't manage him now, but we are good friends, and we meet and we talk, and he respects my musical judgement and tastes and stuff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14724 But I had lunch with him a couple of weeks ago. He's nominated for the best roots album of the year this year. He's 72 years old. He did 70‑plus shows in North America last year. They all sold out ‑‑ or the majority of them sold out. He sells a whack of records at those shows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14725 I remember one time when Ian travelled with a drummer ‑‑ he doesn't any more ‑‑ when they sold merchandise the drummer would take the case that holds the kick drum and he would put it behind him and he would be selling CDs and throwing money in the kick drum, he had to get in the kick drum and stomp the money down because they were selling so many CDs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14726 That being said, Ian gets frustrated. Every time he makes a record, he says, "This is the last record I'm every going to make because nobody plays them". Nobody plays them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14727 This newest record, "Songs from the Gravel Road" is incredible. He's getting better. He's wise and he's extremely well read and he's literate and he makes these records that are intelligent, and people need to hear them and they are just not hearing them unless they go ‑‑ if you want a treat, go out to the East Longview Hall, in October, when Ian does four nights in a row there, and watch the people that come there. It's amazing. It's an amazing event. And there's no reason that Ian Tyson shouldn't be played on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14728 MR. LANGFORD: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14729 Now, I have one other question of fact, and then I will be finished. It's been a long day, and I apologize, but I really do need an answer to this. I think it's essential to your presentation and I don't understand it, so I need some help with it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14730 You talk about folk, and the word "folk" is everything ‑‑ and we had Ms Leyland's interesting play on words at the very outset, and I won't try to repeat it, it's too late and I'm too tired and I will blow it for sure ‑‑ so the word "folk" is everywhere, but when you really get to discussing it, this acoustic‑based moniker keeps coming up, and I'm having trouble understanding what that is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14731 I mean, it's very easy to understand a young Bob Dylan with a guitar standing alone on stage. That's acoustic‑based. I can get that. But how far can you push acoustic‑based? I mean, if Mr. Dylan then has someone with an electrified bass behind him, has he lost it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14732 So can you give me some help about how pure this word "acoustic" is when it's used as an adjective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14733 MS LEYLAND: I'm sorry to do this to you, but I need to go to Pringle, and then perhaps Neil, who books these acoustic artists ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14734 MR. LANGFORD: I'm worried about Pringle, because you know what they say, if you can remember Woodstock, you weren't there ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14735 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑ and so I don't know how much value to put on what he's telling me here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14736 MS LEYLAND: Yes. But you will notice he doesn't speak in detail about what he was doing at Woodstock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14737 MR. PRINGLE: No, I won't tell you about what I was doing at Woodstock.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14738 You are right. You are absolutely right. It's very hard to define music. Not for the public. I think for them, an acoustic‑based, that's folk music, right? But I think, you know, when they get down into these situations, it is difficult to define it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14739 MR. LANGFORD: Would you allow me to interrupt for one second, just so we don't go on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14740 What I need ‑‑ I'm not doing this just for my own edification ‑‑ and I do want you to go on ‑‑ I'm worried about what you can include ‑‑ what your playlist will look like. So let me give you just an insane example to really help you straighten me out on this.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14741 If Frank Sinatra ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14742 MR. PRINGLE: Could I jump in and say, "No, we wouldn't play the first half of "Stairway to Heaven", the acoustic part!
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14743 MR. LANGFORD: If Frank Sinatra is singing ‑‑ well, were singing ‑‑ if we had an old Frank Sinatra record with an entire orchestra behind him, none of which was electrified, is that acoustic‑based?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14744 MR. PRINGLE: Oh, no ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14745 MR. LANGFORD: This is where I'm having ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14746 MR. PRINGLE: ‑‑ no, I'm sorry, no, no, that's not what we mean ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14747 MR. LANGFORD: There's the range, Bob Dylan with a guitar, Frank Sinatra with an entire orchestra, Bob Dylan with a bass player. I just need some sense of the way that works.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14748 MR. PRINGLE: Okay. The real cutoff point is when it starts sounding silly on the radio. I mean, if your basis is ‑‑ you know, when we are talking acoustic, we really mean acoustic guitar is at the heart of everything.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14749 I mean, by all means, there are other acoustic instruments, for example Chad Van Galen has got probably a whole bunch that he made, right, but, I mean, the acoustic guitar is at the base. Probably the acoustic piano, not the keyboard but the acoustic piano, would be the secondary. So that's the kind of thing that's got to fit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14750 And if you are going to do a format, everything's got to fit. If it doesn't fit, it's just a mess. So, you know, when we are saying "acoustic‑based", we are really meaning 90 percent of the time it's going to be acoustic guitar based.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14751 MR. LANGFORD: But if, heaven forbid ‑‑say we love what you are telling us, and we worry about Ian and we want these people to get some airtime, so we license you and, heaven forbid, it doesn't go well, it just doesn't, for some reason it doesn't, and now you have got some room in that Category 2, a lot of room, where can you go? Can you do Diana Krall with her piano? Is that acoustic‑based?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14752 I mean, I'm must trying to figure out the leeway is, what this could transcend into or metamorphose into ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14753 MR. PRINGLE: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14754 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑ if things weren't going well?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14755 MR. PRINGLE: Well, maybe this would help. It's not an acoustic‑based station, it's a folk‑based acoustic station, right? So folk music is the basis of this station. Like, you know, whether it's 30 or 50 percent folk, or whatever we play, the overwhelming sense is this is going to be a folk music station. So what music can you play that will fit with folk music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14756 MR. LANGFORD: So if we license you, what do we call you so that in licence renewal we can call you on what we called you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14757 MR. PRINGLE: Well, I would call us a folk station, because I think most of this acoustic Category 2, I call folk music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14758 MR. LANGFORD: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14759 Those are my questions, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14760 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Langford.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14761 Madam del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14762 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Just one question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14763 You must away of CIRPA's intervention, where they commented that you weren't making contributions to FACTOR and instead you had your own station. I was just wondering whether you had a comment on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14764 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I don't want to sound flippant, but I think that we ‑‑ I bet you we produced more CDs in Alberta last year than FACTOR did, with those 20 CDs there. And if you license us, we will be doing 40 CDs a year out of Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14765 Their main thing is to have it be administered nationally, and we are a great proponent of doing things locally and supporting local artists. We are proud to say that we are playing all of those 20 CDs on our Edmonton radio station. We expect to play the CDS that we produce, if we are licensed, on this radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14766 In fact, we had set a goal to have half of our Category 3 music in Edmonton come from Edmonton artists ‑‑ half our Category 3 Canadian music come from Edmonton by the end of our licence term, and we are doing it already when we signed on. I mean, it's phenomenal. If it goes as well here, we will be playing half of our Canadian music from Calgary. I mean, there's nobody else doing that in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14767 So I appreciate FACTOR's great work in a lot of areas, but we think locally we are doing better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14768 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14769 Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14770 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs. del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14771 The 10K20, it's a yearly project ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14772 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14773 THE CHAIRMAN: ‑‑ so it's going to be for the seven years?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14774 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes, it's actually ‑‑ our commitment is actually eight years because we commit to doing the first 20 before we sign on, so that we have got some music to play when we sign on. So those 20 on the board there in Edmonton, those were produced prior to sign‑on, and I think we have already fully funded six artists in Edmonton already for our year, which just started a month ago. So we are well on the way to doing ‑‑ so we were doing 20 a year there, and if we get this one, as I say, we will be doing 20 before we sign on, and then 20 a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14775 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, am I right to understand that Mr. Armstrong, who is already working for the 10K20 program in Edmonton will also be looking at the Calgary one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14776 MS LEYLAND: That's correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14777 THE CHAIRMAN: It's correct. So you will be travelling back and forth between the two cities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14778 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's a nice drive.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14779 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a nice drive. That's what Commissioner Williams is telling me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14780 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have got a good source of inspirational music from your two comrades.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14781 MR. G. RAWLINSON: You have got it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14782 Don lives here in Calgary, but his role was not full time in Edmonton, so he will actually be working part time on Calgary and part time on Edmonton. That will become like a full‑time job, but ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 14783 MS LEYLAND: And he will be paired with Neil.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14784 MR. G. RAWLINSON: And paired with Neil, who is going to be our executive producer here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14785 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think you already answered partly, Mr. Rawlinson, to my following question, but I'm putting it at least to make sure that we registered it completely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14786 If the Commission was to grant more than one licence for the market, which other applicants could have a negative effect on your business plan, and why?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14787 MR. G. RAWLINSON: First of all, in responding to that, I want to make sure that we are not responding to the AM applicant for the religious station and we are not referring to the ethic applicant that we have just heard because those are out of our realm and we don't have any comments on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14788 But amongst the music‑based FM applicants for Calgary, we think that it would be possible to license one applicant for our young format, young‑based format, of which I think there's three applicants, it would possible to license an easy‑listening format, and hopefully us. So we actually have an opinion that would be okay, that this market, because it's such a rich market, could handle that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14789 We come from Saskatchewan, as you know, and Pam has one interesting comparison.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14790 MS LEYLAND: I would like to comment on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14791 You know, I live in Saskatoon, and in Saskatchewan our population is just under a million people, and unfortunately it's declining. There are 33 commercial radio stations in Saskatchewan and $60‑million radio advertising market in the province as of the last information that we have, as compared to Calgary, where the population is a million people, growing rapidly, 13 radio stations, a $78‑million radio advertising market, growing quickly. So by my calculation, you could probably license another 20.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 14792 THE CHAIRMAN: Legal counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14793 MS BENNETT: I just have one follow‑up question on the blended Canadian content calculation that you have proposed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14794 Commissioner Williams articulated earlier the Commission's concerns about the possibility with the blended rate for programming Category 2 or Category 3 selections at a lower level than the separate regulatory levels, and we heard in your comments earlier, you outlined a scenario, where, under a blended rate, you could air 40 out of 100 selections being Canadian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14795 I understand that your Edmonton station operates under separate COLs for Category 2 and Category 3 Canadian content levels. I'm wondering, could you comment on or come back to us with the possibility of separate Category 2 and Category 3 levels that would allow you to air that 40 out of a hundred being Canadian?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14796 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Well, in Edmonton, it was a little bit different because our commitment there was 35 percent Canadian overall. Of course, the rules require you to be 35 percent in Category 2 anyway, so you have no choice. So that means that automatically we just said, "Well, okay, we've got to do that for sure, and our commitment is 35 percent", so it just became a natural to say we can do two separate commitments because it was 35 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14797 In this case, because we are exceeding the commitment of 35 percent in Category 2 to 40 percent, and we are also saying 40 percent in total, it just gives us a little more flexibility to say that we will be 40 percent overall, and, of course, we will meet the minimums of the 35 percent and 10 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14798 MS BENNETT: So you are saying that you would have a blended rate of 40 percent and you would meet the 35 and the 10?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14799 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Well, I think we have no choice. Every broadcaster has to meet the 35 and 10. So we are saying and then in addition that we will have a blended rate of 40 overall. So I guess I'm not understanding what the difficulty is. Maybe I don't understand the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14800 MS BENNETT: Let me just confer with my colleague here.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 14801 MS BENNETT: All right. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14802 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14803 THE CHAIRMAN: So now's the time to wrap up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14804 Can you, in your own words, tell us why the Commission should retain your application?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14805 Mr. Rawlinson? Madam Leyland?
LISTNUM 1 \l 14806 MS LEYLAND: Yes, I was able to start, so I will ask Gordon to wrap up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14807 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14808 For over 35 years, my brother Doug and I have managed radio stations. We are radio guys first and businessmen second. We are businessmen, of course, but we are radio guys first. We have devoted our lives to doing great radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14809 Doug Pringle and Pam Leyland have been with us for almost 25 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14810 The last few years I have been invigorated by doing new types of radio, first news/talk in Saskatchewan, which was a big challenge and a big learning curve for us. Then, recently smooth jazz, and now the possibility, hopefully, of doing folk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14811 We don't make huge profits in our radio stations, and we won't make a lot with this one. But we are okay with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14812 In Saskatchewan, we run full‑service stations that superserve their communities. I'm extremely proud of the track record of Pam and her team in Saskatchewan, and now in Edmonton: huge community service, excellent news/talk stations, and leadership in first nations programming and employment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14813 So why is Rawlco willing and able to do this bold application for a folk station? Well, we don't have any bank debt, so we don't have pressure from bankers. We are not a public company, so we don't have pressure from shareholders and from the capital markets. And we have the resources and the expertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14814 We are a locally, Calgary‑owned radio group, and we are not just in it for the money, we are in it for the fun.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14815 There's a huge number of folk artists in Calgary, and we have the most effective and successfully proven Canadian talent development program that I have ever seen in all my years of radio: the 10K20 program, and now the complementary programs that we have added.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14816 The folk festival is the second‑largest event in Calgary, after the Calgary Stampede. Not many people know that, but it's a fact. There's a very large number of people who love folk music and acoustic music in Calgary and the Calgary market is strong enough to support a relatively small‑share station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14817 Doug Pringle pointed out the psychographic difference between listeners to easy listening and listeners to folk or acoustic music. It's background versus foreground, and we are the most unique applicant here. So we believe you can license an easy‑listening station, or any other stations, and we are okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14818 So Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, and staff, I personally feel that it would be a tragedy if this opportunity is missed. I feel this is a truly historic moment in Canadian radio and opportunity for an innovative pioneering format, and I, and we, would be thrilled to get the chance to do it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14819 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14820 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson. Thank you, Mrs. Leyland. Thank you to all your team for an excellent presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14821 We will adjourn now, and reconvene tomorrow morning at 8:30 a.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14822 It's our intention to hear the two last applications for Calgary in the morning and the three applications for Airdrie in the afternoon, so we may close later tomorrow night than 6 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14823 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14824 MS LEYLAND: Thank you.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1820, to resume
on Thursday, February 23, 2006 at 0830 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1820, pour reprendre le jeudi 23
fevrier 2006 à 0830
REPORTERS
_____________________ _____________________
Doug Lebel Sue Villeneuve
_____________________ _____________________
Fiona Potvin Sharon Millett
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