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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.






































HELD AT:                              TENUE À:


Embassy Suites Hotel                  Embassy Suites Hotel

Rooms A/B/C                           Salons A/B/C

6700 Fallsview Boulevard              6700, boulevard Fallsview

Niagara Falls, Ontario                Niagara Falls (Ontario)



June 7, 2005                          Le 7 juin 2005








In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of



However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.







Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.


Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission


            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes



                 Transcript / Transcription













Charles Dalfen                    Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Richard French                    Commissioner / Conseillier

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseillier





Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire


James Murdock                     Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseiller juridique


Steve Parker                      Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience


Pierre Lebel



HELD AT:                          TENUE À:


Embassy Suites Hotel              Embassy Suites Hotel

Rooms A/B/C                       Salons A/B/C

6700 Fallsview Boulevard          6700, boulevard Fallsview

Niagara Falls, Ontario            Niagara Falls (Ontario)



June 7, 2005                      Le 7 juin 2005





                                                 PAGE / PARA








Byrnes Communications Inc.                        411 / 2302


Standard Radio Inc.                               476 / 2671


CHUM Limited                                      550 / 3199


Newcap Inc.                                       595 / 3477


Sound of Faith Broadcasting                       651 / 3821


Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited          705 / 4151

     Niagara Falls, Ontario / Niagara Falls (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday June 7, 2005 at 0933 /

    L'audience reprend le mardi 7 juin 2005 à 0933

seq level0 \h \r2288 seq level1 \h \r0 seq level2 \h \r0 seq level3 \h \r0 seq level4 \h \r0 seq level5 \h \r0 seq level6 \h \r0 seq level7 \h \r0 seq level0 \*arabic2289             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

seq level0 \*arabic2290             Good morning, everyone.  I would ask the secretary to call the next item, please.

seq level0 \*arabic2291             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

seq level0 \*arabic2292             We will now proceed today with items 2 to 7 on the agenda.  These items are competing applications and we will proceed as follows:

seq level0 \*arabic2293             First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order and each applicant will be granted twenty minutes to make his presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

seq level0 \*arabic2294             In Phase 2 the applicants reappear in the same order to intervene on the competing applications if they wish.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose.

seq level0 \*arabic2295             Questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

seq level0 \*arabic2296             In Phase 3 other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing intervention.  Again, questions from the Commission may follow.

seq level0 \*arabic2297             Phase 4 provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.  Ten minutes are allowed for this reply and again questions may follow.

seq level0 \*arabic2298             And now, Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Item 2 on the agenda, which is an application by Byrnes Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2299             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284A, with an average effective radiated power of 1,910 watts.

seq level0 \*arabic2300             Appearing for the applicant, Mr. Chris Byrnes, and Mr. Byrnes will introduced his colleagues.

seq level0 \*arabic2301             You have twenty minutes to make your presentation.


seq level0 \*arabic2302             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

seq level0 \*arabic2303             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.

seq level0 \*arabic2304             My name is Chris Byrnes and I'm the majority shareholder and president of Byrnes Communications and we are pleased to appear before you today to present our application for an FM station to serve the city of Woodstock, Ontario.

seq level0 \*arabic2305             I would like to introduce the panel accompanying me.  To my right is Gord Marratto, my partner in Byrnes Communications.  Gord will be the general manager of the new station should the Commission grant us the licence.

seq level0 \*arabic2306             To Gord's right is the mayor of Woodstock, His Worship Michael Harding and to my left is Brad Janssen, a well‑known Woodstock broadcaster.  Directly behind me is Jeff Vidler, partner with Solutions Research Group, the company which conducted extensive research on our behalf.

seq level0 \*arabic2307             In the application we have submitted to you we address the concerns of the CRTC regarding impact on the Woodstock market, the competitive state, the diversity of news voices and the quality of our application.

seq level0 \*arabic2308             We also speak to the Commission's desire to ensure small independent broadcasters can survive and thrive in a world of constant consolidation.

seq level0 \*arabic2309             I believe we have interpreted these perspectives correctly and I believe we have the wherewithal to meet your standards and exceed them.

seq level0 \*arabic2310             The journey here for me started in 1997, when as a minority shareholder in a successful radio company in New Zealand known as The More FM Group, the majority shareholders decided to sell the company.  That allowed me to fulfil a wedding day promise to my Canadian bride and to move our young family here to Canada.

seq level0 \*arabic2311             I had been visiting Canada since the mid‑eighties and watching the Canadian broadcast industry with some interest.

seq level0 \*arabic2312             We arrived in January of 1998 and I became a Canadian citizen in 2000.  I then began looking for an opportunity to once again become involved in radio ownership.  I started a broadcast consulting company, Byrnes Media, which has grown to be the second‑largest Canadian programming consultancy in the Canada.  We offer programming and marketing advice to over 25 radio stations in Canada in markets as large as Toronto and as small as Castlegar, British Columbia.

seq level0 \*arabic2313             On one of my trips through Southern Ontario I heard about the lack of local radio service in Woodstock and started to investigate.

seq level0 \*arabic2314             It was at about that time that I met Gord Marratto, who had been the owner of the Woodstock radio station when it had been a vibrant local FM station in the late eighties and early nineties.

seq level0 \*arabic2315             His broadcasting career also included a long partnership with the principals of Eastern Broadcasting and Gord brings invaluable experience to our partnership.  He looks forward to returning to Woodstock to live and work, where he spent fifteen years of his life.

seq level0 \*arabic2316             MR. MARRATTO:  Thank you, Chris.

seq level0 \*arabic2317             Indeed I do look forward to being back in Woodstock in the radio business.

seq level0 \*arabic2318             Fourteen years ago I thought that early retirement would be a fine way to spend the golden years, but I soon found that broadcasting was deeply rooted in my blood.  Imagine the satisfaction finding the opportunity to revisit my career in my hometown of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2319             Almost sixty years ago the CBC's board of governors approved a licence for a radio station in Woodstock and in December of 1947 the station had its own local news and entertainment broadcasting service, but starting in the 1990s the current owner began moving the radio station piece by piece to London.

seq level0 \*arabic2320             By 2000 there was nothing left of the once flourishing radio station but a building on the main street and a receptionist to answer the phones and give out prizes.

seq level0 \*arabic2321             To have once had its own radio station, but now be without meaningful local radio service is even more frustrating to the people Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2322             During the great power blackout of 2003 almost everyone found a battery‑operated radio and tuned into an area radio station.  It was, after all, our only link to immediate news.

seq level0 \*arabic2323             Hospitals needed to speak to possible visitors during the SARS epidemic and right now at this very minute there is a dangerous rubella outbreak in Oxford County, but the local effects of these emergencies and the immediate need for communications still frustrate the residents of Woodstock and area.

seq level0 \*arabic2324             Our company, with its knowledge of the market and its local broadcasting experience wants to fill the void that has been left.  We know how to make good radio; moreover we know now to make good radio in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2325             Members of the Commission, we're asking you for the opportunity to do just that.  In June of 2003 we commissioned a technical study to find a frequency to bring local radio back to the city.  It was, in fact, our company which was the first to uncover the 104.7 frequency as a possible choice to serve Woodstock.  We filed our application on January 26th, 2004.

seq level0 \*arabic2326             The person I'm about to introduce supported our application from the very beginning. He has been consistently vocal in his disappointment with the current licensed broadcaster.  Members of the Commission, I would like to introduce you to one of the most active and community‑inspired mayors I've ever had the pleasure of meetings Woodstock's mayor, His Worship Michael Harding.

seq level0 \*arabic2327             MR. HARDING:  Thank you, Mr. Marratto, for those very kind words.

seq level0 \*arabic2328             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, I am Michael Harding and I'm proud to be the mayor of the City of Woodstock and a councillor for the County of Oxford.

seq level0 \*arabic2329             My city is enjoying its greatest growth in fifty years.  Manufacturing, service and retail sectors have been expanding at a record pace in this new millennium.  Some are predicting that our population might almost double in the next ten years. It's truly an exciting time for my city.

seq level0 \*arabic2330             Even before my election in the fall of 2003, I was appalled that a city the size of Woodstock essentially had no commercial station.  The station known as The Hawk, which is owned by Corus Entertainment and licensed to serve Woodstock had long since abandoned the area, moving its operation to the City of London.

seq level0 \*arabic2331             I suppose for strategic reasons they aired little Woodstock or Oxford County information at all.  They never showed up to any of our local council meetings or attended at any of the important news events in our city.

seq level0 \*arabic2332             One of my campaign objectives was to see that the area got its local radio station back.  I was extremely gratified, therefore, when just after my election Chris Byrnes and Gord Marratto approached me to lend my support to an application for their company to establish ‑‑ perhaps re‑establish a radio station in the City of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2333             I was impressed by their broadcasting experience and Gord's knowledge of the Woodstock community.  I'd heard about their plans to hire 13 local full‑time staff and that there would be ownership living in Woodstock, because I believe it's vital to have 31 to top management right in our community.

seq level0 \*arabic2334             And I have vision for the City of Woodstock and that vision certainly includes a good local radio station that our people can turn to for critical information.  I also believe that the community will benefit by having an alternative news voice in addition to our local daily newspaper.

seq level0 \*arabic2335             I'm convinced that Byrnes Communication, being a small and independent company will be the best fit for our community and for all of us in Woodstock while we look forward to welcoming their new FM radio station in our city.

seq level0 \*arabic2336             On a final note, during the period that this application process has been underway, the one company that has turned up for every major function in Woodstock is, in fact, Byrnes Communications.  They have shown me their high degree of interest in being a part of Woodstock and I laud them for that.  I therefore give my support to their application and thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2337             MR. MARRATTO:  And thank you, Your Worship.

seq level0 \*arabic2338             We have concluded that approximately 90 per cent of our station's revenue will be generated from Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County.  Most of this retail base will be built from merchants who were disenfranchised when CKDK‑FM moved most of its operation to London and began charging major market rates.

seq level0 \*arabic2339             Our business plan does not contemplate attracting revenue from markets like London, Kitchener or Stratford.  The modest coverage contours preclude such a possibility and consequently we should have little or no effect on broadcasters in those markets.

seq level0 \*arabic2340             Likewise, Tillsonburg lies outside the proposed station's .5 mV/m contour and is unlikely to be impacted at all.

seq level0 \*arabic2341             Woodstock is on the threshold of unbridled industrial development.  The Financial Post Canadian demographics 2005 predicts over 500 million dollars in retail sales this year.

seq level0 \*arabic2342             There is an official announcement pending of a Toyota plant bringing 3,000 new jobs to the area and many are predicting huge population growth in the next ten years.

seq level0 \*arabic2343             Corus publicly admits to de‑emphasizing local sales efforts in Woodstock and from our monitors of CKDK‑FM we have determined they sell less than a hundred thousand dollars' of business annually in the area.  This is definitely a market ready for a new FM station.

seq level0 \*arabic2344             Members of the Commission, Brad Janssen will be the first employee as promotions manager of the new Woodstock station.  He is a native Woodstonian and is "Mister Radio" in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2345             I doubt there is one person in the city who isn't aware of Brad and the marvellous work he does for charitable groups and service organizations.  Just last month Chris Byrnes and I attended a Chamber of Commerce event where Brad was given the Award of Excellence as the outstanding citizen for his community service.

seq level0 \*arabic2346             Members of the Commission, I'm pleased to introduce you to Brad Janssen.

seq level0 \*arabic2347             MR. JANSSEN:  Thank you, Mr. Marratto.

seq level0 \*arabic2348             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, during my career as broadcaster in the City of Woodstock I have made a concentrated effort to draw attention to the causes and events that could benefit from top of mind awareness.

seq level0 \*arabic2349             Naturally, being a broadcaster gave me my profile and I make sure I use it with respect when I work on behalf of the many charities I serve.

seq level0 \*arabic2350             When Corus moved its operation to London a few years ago I felt somewhat manacled in my efforts to assist causes such as The Women's Emergency Centre, The Alzheimer's Society, Crohn's and Colitis Foundation and the Woodstock & District Developmental Services.

seq level0 \*arabic2351             Now, in my position as manager of community services for the City of Woodstock I am even more aware of how critical it is to have a local radio station to promote these causes.

seq level0 \*arabic2352             I worked for Gord Marratto for five years and when he and Chris Byrnes approached me about being part of their application I didn't hesitate to accept, because I personally believe their application to be in the best interest of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2353             For my part, I will oversee the station's promotions department.  It will offer me to the opportunity to extend the work I do for the community by providing a vehicle to promote the projects I co‑ordinate.  I will also be responsible for organizing and hosting a community advisory panel, which will offer advice on the overall interaction of the radio station with the community.

seq level0 \*arabic2354             I will also co‑ordinate the activities of the station's Community Cruiser, the daily schedule of "Focus on Woodstock" and our listener feedback line, which will allow people to call in and sound off on things that concern them. These two features will air a total of eight times daily and will play a major role in identifying our station with this community.

seq level0 \*arabic2355             Furthermore, we will make the radio station available to non‑profit organizations in the community so that they have 31 to live interviews, public service announcements, the Community Cruiser and many other promotional opportunities that become available.

seq level0 \*arabic2356             I am proud to say that I'm going to help Byrnes Communications work with the community to be the best possible radio station for Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2357             Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2358             MR. BYRNES:  We are proposing a mainstream adult contemporary music station targeted at the 25 to 54 age demographic.  We commissioned the Solutions Research Group of Toronto and they sought the opinions of 300 people in the proposed coverage area.

seq level0 \*arabic2359             Our programming philosophies were formed by combining input from numerous community contacts and the findings provided by the research. Those conclusions can be found in our supplementary brief.

seq level0 \*arabic2360             We will play a minimum of 40 per cent Canadian content over our 126‑hour broadcast week.

seq level0 \*arabic2361             One of the benefits unique to our application is that we will add a distinct news voice to the area.  We are the only applicant applying for the Woodstock licence that has absolutely no affiliation with stations in London or nearby Kitchener.

seq level0 \*arabic2362             The competing applicants all own or are associated with a total of six radio stations that can be heard in Woodstock.  We believe that granting another licence to one of these existing broadcasters would not add diversity to the area.

seq level0 \*arabic2363             Service clubs and charitable organizations will also benefit from having a radio station to promote their campaigns.  I recently attended the 100th anniversary celebrations of Rotary International in Woodstock, where all the area Rotary Clubs gathered together.  There was no radio station in attendance.

seq level0 \*arabic2364             This lack of interest is perhaps the most common complaint we hear from community leaders, business owners and members of the public. Their plea is very, very clear.  Please, give us our local radio station back.

seq level0 \*arabic2365             We'll broadcast 11 hours and 18 minutes of spoken word content each week.  All our programming will be locally produced with the important 6A to 7P period Monday to Friday and midday periods on weekends live to air from our Woodstock studios.

seq level0 \*arabic2366             Our entire spoken word presentation will emphasize local information.  Over an average week, 70 per cent of all the content of our news will be local.

seq level0 \*arabic2367             MR. MARRATTO:  The weather in the Woodstock region changes at a whim and the area historically has endured some critical weather extremes.

seq level0 \*arabic2368             I just happened to be there at the radio station when the city was hit by a severe tornado in August of 1979.  There were four people killed and over 26 million dollars in property damage.  One of our radio station employees went home to find only his bathtub and chimney still intact.  Another almost lost his wife and infant daughter when their entire dining room was lifted skyward.

seq level0 \*arabic2369             The southwestern region of Ontario has the highest frequency of severe storms in Canada and almost as many tornados as the area known as Tornado Alley in the U.S.

seq level0 \*arabic2370             Winters are equally troublesome. Woodstock lies in a snow belt that extends southeast from Lake Huron and frequently has winter conditions that cause school closures and dangerous driving conditions.  The Woodstock area receives an average seven feet of annual snowfall, while in contrast the neighbouring Waterloo/Wellington/Perth area averages only four feet.

seq level0 \*arabic2371             Certainly these factors make Woodstonians wary of weather conditions and frequently searching for up‑to‑date forecasts and reports.

seq level0 \*arabic2372             MR. BYRNES:  Our station will provide weather reports with every newscast and when the weather turns bad we'll bring in additional staff to ensure listeners get frequent updates on school closings, school bus cancellations and road closures.

seq level0 \*arabic2373             We will install two traffic cameras high on the transmission tower at Bower Hill, the highest point in the area, so our announcers and news staff can have a clear view Of highways 401 and 403, both of which are trouble spots for traffic.

seq level0 \*arabic2374             As part of our commitment to reflect the local community we intend to foster internships for journalism and broadcasting students from facilities such as Fanshawe and Conestoga Colleges.

seq level0 \*arabic2375             I personally dedicate six days a year to speak to students in the broadcast colleges as a way to give something back to an industry that's been very good to me and that practice will continue.

seq level0 \*arabic2376             In the area of Canadian talent development we are proposing significant direct and indirect initiatives aimed at enhancing and promoting Canadian artists.  The direct expense contributions will amount to a minimum of $105,000 over the course of the seven year licence term and during that same period the indirect expense contributions will amount to a minimum of 269,500.

seq level0 \*arabic2377             After collaboration with members of the community, including the Rotary Clubs and the music teachers, we have outlined four major initiatives in our application.  Woodstock Idol, Student Music Scholarships, the Young Musicians Award and FACTOR together will provide $15,000 in direct commitments and a further 38,500 in indirect benefits each year.

seq level0 \*arabic2378             We believe that both from a monetary and execution point of view, these initiatives are substantial and aggressive undertakings for a company of our size and in a market the size of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2379             Byrnes Communications is comprised of two experienced broadcasters.  Both Gord Marratto and I have strong business and radio backgrounds.  We have a dedicated commitment to Canadian talent development and we will offer a distinct editorial and journalistic voice.

seq level0 \*arabic2380             Members of the Commission, my long‑term goal is to own and operate this radio station and ultimately provide a legacy for my children, who are here today.  Should the Commission grant our company the licence, I will do my best to ensure the Byrnes name is involved in broadcasting in Woodstock for many years to come.

seq level0 \*arabic2381             We have the experience, the financial resources, but most of all, the passion to make this happen.  All we need is a positive decision from the CRTC.

seq level0 \*arabic2382             MR. MARRATTO:  Leading up to this hearing Chris Byrnes and I have attended every major function in Woodstock.  We didn't see any of the other applicants at the Chamber of Commerce Annual Awards Dinner, or BIA general meeting or the Annual Agricultural Awards Dinner or the Mayor's annual state of the city address or any of the numerous council meetings we attended.

seq level0 \*arabic2383             We also visited many of the retail establishments seeking their written support.  We went to the hardware stores, the restaurants, the car dealerships, the clothing stores, letting Woodstock people know that we want to bring them the best local radio possible and asking them to lend us their support.

seq level0 \*arabic2384             Every township, town and city council in Oxford County has passed resolutions supporting our application.

seq level0 \*arabic2385             We intentionally avoided Tillsonburg in deference to that community having its own radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2386             In fact, Byrnes Communications received over 400 letters of positive support, five times number of all our applicants combined.  The community knows that we are local people with local experience and our head office will be in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2387             We would like to thank the Commission for its time today and for hearing our presentation.  We encourage you to consider our application favourably and grant the next FM licence in Canada to our company, Byrnes Communications.

seq level0 \*arabic2388             Help us bring back local radio to the City of Woodstock, Ontario.  Thank you very much our panel welcomes any questions you might have.

seq level0 \*arabic2389             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.  Commissioner Langford.

seq level0 \*arabic2390             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

seq level0 \*arabic2391             Welcome to Niagara Falls, gentlemen, and we'll have a barrel of fun, if we can, and get through some of the questions.

seq level0 \*arabic2392             I must say, Mr. Marratto, I was wondering how long it would take before Mayor Harding whacked you over the head with a pot of water or something like that.  He's busy trying to sell his city as the place to live and the place to set up business and you've got Tornado Alley going down Main Street.  Seems to be a bit of a conflict there, but I must say I give him marks for holding himself in check.

seq level0 \*arabic2393             MR. MARRATTO:  God plays no favourites, I'm afraid.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2394             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Some secrets are better kept dark.

seq level0 \*arabic2395             I don't have a lot of questions for you today and the reason for that is that you have a very, very clear application and you also have cleared up a few of the problems I had in this morning's presentation.

seq level0 \*arabic2396             But I do have some and what I want to concentrate on is, first of all, exactly what people will hear, just get a few more facts and some notion of your background thinking in the way you set it up and then a little bit on your financial plan and your business plan and then perhaps we'll end with a bit of ‑‑ you know, we'll sneak in a bit more on this whole notion of what's local and what isn't, which you seem to be selling as a very strong point, so I want to make sure that we understand that first of all.

seq level0 \*arabic2397             So let's talk, if we can, about what, I suppose, a lot of people go to the radio for, is entertainment and I'm interested that you have chosen the AC, the adult contemporary format, you've chosen the sort of 25 to 54 demographic, which I don't make it into anymore, I'm sorry to say, being only 24.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2398             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And my first question is why?  I mean, I know generally that's a very popular demographic and I know generally that's a very popular sound, but as I count it presently if I live in Woodstock I can hear at this very moment five adult contemporary stations, perhaps with different takes on the AC format, and I can also hear two classic rocks kind of headed in the same direction.  So it seems like a crowded market. Why did you go there?

seq level0 \*arabic2399             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

seq level0 \*arabic2400             I will answer part of this question and then ask our research expert to also speak to this.

seq level0 \*arabic2401             The critical thing about our application and the one thing that was very clearly missing as Gord and I spent a lot of time walking the streets of Woodstock and talking to people, what is absolutely missing is local information.

seq level0 \*arabic2402             You are correct, there are some 15 signals, in fact, that are measured in that market as coming out of market via BBM.  In fact, there's over 90 per cent of all the listening in that market is done through out‑of‑market radio stations.

seq level0 \*arabic2403             The real challenge for the people Woodstock is where do they find the critical information?  Where do they find out about school closings and bus information and are the schools open and are the roads open?

seq level0 \*arabic2404             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If I could interrupt and I rarely do that, but we'll get to that and I understand that that's the strength and the impact and the real focus of your application.  It's very clear in the application, you were clear this morning, you were clear again just now.

seq level0 \*arabic2405             What I'm trying to understand is why you will link this package of local to a format, to a music format, which, let's face it, music is what you're going to hear a lot of time on the station that's already there, already there in spades.

seq level0 \*arabic2406             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.  And, you know, we started out by conducting a research project that research project very clearly showed us that this particular format, in fact 73 per cent of all the people that we talked to and presented them with a style of music and played them samples of this music, 73 per cent of everyone that we talked to said that they would sample this radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2407             Gord, do you have anything to add to that?

seq level0 \*arabic2408             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, we do also have some experience from the past when we did ‑‑ when I was involved with a radio station in Woodstock that did broadcast AC music.

seq level0 \*arabic2409             Now, obviously the spectrum has changed a little.  There has been a CHUM station added to the London offering and I believe there's a country station out of the Kitchener that now comes into the Woodstock market, but at that time our AC mainstream radio station reached 49.5 per cent of the local audience.

seq level0 \*arabic2410             So it kind of gave us a bit of a feel for the fact that rural people, I believe, want a mainstream format.

seq level0 \*arabic2411             And, Mr. Commissioner, it's kind of a plus, in fact, that a number of people listen to variations of AC format.  They're listening to those stations, I believe, by default because they can't get local information.  But if we give them local information and the format that they're choosing now from our communities I think we have the right pairing.

seq level0 \*arabic2412             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So essentially what you're saying is somebody's going to lost, but it's not going to be you.

seq level0 \*arabic2413             MR. MARRATTO:  That's right.

seq level0 \*arabic2414             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Because it is a crowded field.  I'm looking at some of the information that staff has assisted us by putting together here, but it's public information, and I'm looking at CKOT‑FM from Tillsonburg and that's adult standards.  Well, we're not too far off there; I'm looking at CHYM‑FM Kitchener, adult contemporary; CKDK Woodstock and that's classic rock; I'm looking at CFCA‑FM, hot adult contemporary; I'm looking at CIQM‑FM London, adult contemporary; CKNX Wingham, adult contemporary.

seq level0 \*arabic2415             There does seem to be a theme there.

seq level0 \*arabic2416             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, there is.  But, for example, when you mention CKDK‑FM, the Woodstock station, whose audience at the moment has dropped down to a point where they're only at a 9.5 share in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2417             Also, they are ‑‑ that format pretty much targets young male adults, which is not where we're going.  You know, if I had to draw a picture of our average listener I project that will be probably a 38‑ to 40‑year‑old female mostly and a ‑‑ so I tend to think that there's plenty of opportunity for us without stealing from the local station, if you will.

seq level0 \*arabic2418             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Did you have a second choice that you ‑‑ when you sat around in the meeting kind of saying ‑‑ with your analysts saying, gee, where do we go?  It's just my curiosity. There's no value to the answer to this question negative or positive.

seq level0 \*arabic2419             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  There's a negative value.

seq level0 \*arabic2420             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But I wondering whether there was a second choice.

seq level0 \*arabic2421             MR. BYRNES:  Well, that's part of the reason why we brought our expert in terms of research with us today and Jeff Vidler will comment on that.

seq level0 \*arabic2422             MR. VIDLER:  The research was focused and the research project was structured to look at the one format that ‑‑ and, as Gord is referring to, that they have had experience with in the market and was indeed a successful format for the Woodstock station back in the days that Gord was managing that was a successful station.

seq level0 \*arabic2423             So based on local experience they had a very kind of clear idea or vision what they felt would best satisfy the audience and in a sense provide the natural link, I guess, between music and local information.  Format targeted towards 45 to 55 year olds, many of them with children, females in particular who would have particular interest in weather information, school bus closing information, some of that survival information that's critical on a local level.

seq level0 \*arabic2424             So it was on that basis that they then commissioned us to validate, if you like, verify, the nature of that audience and there's, you know, a couple of approaches you can take towards doing research for radio stations.

seq level0 \*arabic2425             You can look at multiple formats or you can focus on a single format and much like your Grade 11 science experiment, it's often better to work with a particular hypothesis and be able to develop that thoroughly, so that's what we did with the research, was we focused on their best guess to verify that there was, in fact, a market for it and that being the adult contemporary format.

seq level0 \*arabic2426             And it did allow us to not only describe the station, but to play a sample montage of the station, to ask some questions about the current listening habits of the market itself, attitudes towards local news and information and specific demands for local information and to cross‑tab that against the audience that would be attracted by an AC format.

seq level0 \*arabic2427             So it really allowed us to really thoroughly test the hypothesis and, in fact, it did come back that there was, indeed, a very natural link in terms of the demand for local news and information from this potential AC audience.

seq level0 \*arabic2428             Seventy per cent of the all the 18 to 64 year olds that we surveyed said that they would listen to ‑‑ spend more time listening to the radio if there was a local radio station that offered local information.

seq level0 \*arabic2429             That figure rose to 87 per cent among the people who would be attracted to the AC audience, the people that would be part of that weekly reach.  So in fact confirming that there's an audience for it, but also an audience that connects naturally to that demand for local news and information.

seq level0 \*arabic2430             MR. BYRNES:  And, lastly, we were somewhat interested to see that two of the other companies carried out research and came up with the same answer.

seq level0 \*arabic2431             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I noticed that as well.

seq level0 \*arabic2432             So essentially what you're saying is we know you like AC and if we top it up with a good dollop of local, will you listen to us?

seq level0 \*arabic2433             MR. BYRNES:  That's it.

seq level0 \*arabic2434             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Which existing stations, and we have been talking about some them in there now, do you think you're going to take some of these listeners from?  In other words, they're listening to their AC now, they're getting it, it may not be precisely what you're offering, but there's bound to be some overlap.

seq level0 \*arabic2435             Once you start adding the local factor to it, as you plan to do, where will the losers be?

seq level0 \*arabic2436             MR. BYRNES:  Well, we once again had Solutions Research do a switching study, and Jeff will speak to that in a moment, but the short answer is that we will generate audience from a number of radio stations.  We will impact no single radio station by no more than 3 per cent.

seq level0 \*arabic2437             Jeff, you've got some specific examples?

seq level0 \*arabic2438             MR. VIDLER:  Just looking again at the survey that we did and looking at those people who would be attracted to this AC FM would provide the weekly reach for the audience as such, the stations they currently listening to most often ‑‑ and these would the ones who presumably would be impacted by tuning ‑‑ BX93, which is actually a country station out of London, 14 per cent of the CUM or potential CUM to the AC FM station currently named BX93 as the station listened to most often; CHIME out of Kitchener, which you alluded to earlier, and adult contemporary station, but nonlocal adult contemporary station; FM96, rock station out of London, 12 per cent; The Hawk, 10 percent, the local station, only 10 per cent say it's currently the station listened to most often; BOB FM out of London; COOL FM out of the Kitchener; Country 93.3 out of Hamilton; 103.1 Energy FM; CBC Radio One; and only 4 per cent who currently listen to Easy 101 out of CKOT ‑‑ the CKOT‑FM in Tillsonburg.

seq level0 \*arabic2439             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

seq level0 \*arabic2440             I just want to be clear about an inconsistency in your supplementary brief on the whole subject of repatriating listeners or taking listeners from out of town stations, depending how you like to phrase it.

seq level0 \*arabic2441             On page 8 of your supplementary brief you project a 90 per cent repatriation, but on page 19 you predict a 70 per cent.  Is there something I've missed there or is it just a typo or have I read it incorrectly?

seq level0 \*arabic2442             Page 8 again, 90 per cent repatriation; but page 19, 70 per cent.  Maybe you can just tell us what number you ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2443             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  I think the 90 per cent was our analysis of looking at al the ‑‑ that was actually the amount of out‑of‑market tuning that's going on, as evidenced by the BBM.  And so I think that 90 per cent figure is the out‑of‑market tuning, which we are fairly confident are the available audience.

seq level0 \*arabic2444             The 70 per cent figure, if I'm not mistaken, comes from the Solutions Research study, which actually talked about a sample size of 18 to 64 year olds and we asked all those people if they would ‑‑ you know, how many of those people would tune a local radio station in Woodstock and I believe the figure was 73 per cent that said they would try it.

seq level0 \*arabic2445             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that's a good explanation, but if you want to look at it later and you want to add anything to it you'll have a reply stage later and you're certainly invited to look at it again and make sure that that's the answer you want to leave us with.

seq level0 \*arabic2446             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

seq level0 \*arabic2447             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want to move now to spoken word which is, of course, a big part of the focus of your application.  News, weather, sports, cameras on the 401.

seq level0 \*arabic2448             You said this morning a total of 11 hours and 18 minutes, but I just want to make sure I get the facts on how that breaks down and what the pieces and the parts are.

seq level0 \*arabic2449             As I understand it from your application itself, the news, what we would call news, is 4.5 hours per week.  Is that still the number?

seq level0 \*arabic2450             MR. BYRNES:  Well, Commissioner, that information was filed eighteen months ago.

seq level0 \*arabic2451             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sure.

seq level0 \*arabic2452             MR. BYRNES:  And through that period of time we've looked at everything again closely and when we really sit down and actually add up the numbers it's really over five hours.

seq level0 \*arabic2453             We want to broadcast 66 newscasts each week and that will amount to 5 hours 25, to be exact.

seq level0 \*arabic2454             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  5 25 rather than 4.5.  Can we break that down a little? You said this morning that 70 per cent of that would be local.  I don't have a calculator with me and ... Commissioner Cram is really good at arithmetic, but I'm not.

seq level0 \*arabic2455             So can you break that down in terms of hours and minutes?  70 per cent ‑‑ that's 70 per cent, I guess, of the 5.25 hours; is that right?

seq level0 \*arabic2456             MR. BYRNES:  We talked about the content of the news being 70 per cent local.

seq level0 \*arabic2457             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Right.

seq level0 \*arabic2458             MR. BYRNES:  So the goal is that if you listen to the radio station and the radio station broadcast ten news stories in the 7 a.m. hour seven of those would be local stories.

seq level0 \*arabic2459             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

seq level0 \*arabic2460             MR. BYRNES:  So there's part of the local.

seq level0 \*arabic2461             One thing that obviously we will do is provide local weather, local traffic, local sports results, and so it's very quickly going to get us to that 70 per cent local.

seq level0 \*arabic2462             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe I should go back to the 5.25 hours and I just want to make sure I'm clear on that.  Is that news or is that news, weather, sports, announcements?

seq level0 \*arabic2463             MR. BYRNES:  That is news, weather sports and traffic.

seq level0 \*arabic2464             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And traffic, okay.  That's the package.  And about 70 per cent of that overall will be local.

seq level0 \*arabic2465             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, sir.

seq level0 \*arabic2466             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So what will the other 30 per cent be?  National and international or do we get into something called regional then or something?

seq level0 \*arabic2467             MR. BYRNES:  Well, the way we have looked at it is that 15 per cent of the news stories would be national and 15 per cent would be provincial or regional.

seq level0 \*arabic2468             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So if the Third World War breaks out what happens?

seq level0 \*arabic2469             MR. MARRATTO:  What we're talking about here, obviously, Mr. Commissioner, is averages and if the Third World War breaks out or another war in Iraq or something, obviously it will take precedence over everything else and what in fact is a national story becomes a local story at that point because it affects everybody in their home.  So, yes, these are averages.

seq level0 \*arabic2470             Just to correct one thing, because I know you're writing things down and being very precise.  It's actually 5 hours and 20 minutes.  We misspoke and said 5 25, but it's 5 hours and 20 minutes.

seq level0 \*arabic2471             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  All right.  Thank you for that.

seq level0 \*arabic2472             MR. MARRATTO:  You're welcome.

seq level0 \*arabic2473             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So, in other words, you're not locked into a non‑international format, but just in general terms, then, I gather these 70, 15, 15, are fairly general or that we're to take this with a bit of a grain of salt and there may be some leverage, but this is to give us the profile of an average week or month or something; is that it?

seq level0 \*arabic2474             MR. MARRATTO:  Correct.

seq level0 \*arabic2475             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.

seq level0 \*arabic2476             Now, I just want to get back to the bigger number of 66 newscasts and you did throw some light on that this morning in your opening remarks, but could you just take us through exactly when on weekdays and when on weekends this will run and how long each break would be?

seq level0 \*arabic2477             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.  And we would be happy to file a spreadsheet with the officers at the end of the hearing.

seq level0 \*arabic2478             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That would be excellent.  If you could do that then you can speak more generally now and if you could file something that would be wonderful.

seq level0 \*arabic2479             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  I'll give you an example.  I mean, we intend to run news on the hour and half hour through morning drive, in the midday periods and then once again half hour through afternoon drive periods.

seq level0 \*arabic2480             So 12 newscasts per day Monday to Friday and then three per day on Saturday and three per day on Sunday.

seq level0 \*arabic2481             Average duration of news on the top of the hour will be three minutes with one minute of sports, 30 seconds for weather and then appropriate traffic information after that.

seq level0 \*arabic2482             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sorry, is that three minutes in total, so ‑‑ and then we break it down into ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2483             MR. BYRNES:  No, it's it ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2484             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ or is it four and a half?

seq level0 \*arabic2485             MR. BYRNES:  That would be four and a half.  Three minutes of news, a minute of sport, half a minute of weather.

seq level0 \*arabic2486             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.  And in sports will your emphasize also be local.

seq level0 \*arabic2487             MR. BYRNES:  Absolutely.

seq level0 \*arabic2488             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Local sports teams?

seq level0 \*arabic2489             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, absolutely.

seq level0 \*arabic2490             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.

seq level0 \*arabic2491             Some of your other shows focus on Woodstock.  You speak about having four community‑focused features a day.  Can you give me kind of a breakdown on those as well, length and time and whether it's on on the weekends, that sort of thing.

seq level0 \*arabic2492             MR. BYRNES:  Certainly.  "Focus on Woodstock" is something we're very excited about.  It gives us the opportunity to billboard some of the great things going on in the community.  As Brad mentioned in his verbal presentation, you'll hear that four times a day running at approximately a minute apiece.

seq level0 \*arabic2493             The listener feedback line that was also mentioned by Brad will air at least four times a day over the seven‑day week.  And also the local interviews and the community cut‑ins that you'll hear on the radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2494             Our desire here is to have a truly local radio station.  As we mentioned earlier, there will be no ‑‑ you know, we're not affiliated with other radio stations.  This will be content that's all generated at our radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2495             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And four times a day, thank you for that.  Go back again.  I'm really just collecting facts here.  Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but it really helps us to measure this in the end, to have a very, very clear idea of the product itself.

seq level0 \*arabic2496             "Focus on Woodstock" four times a day, one minute.  What sort of subject?  What might I hear typically in a "Focus on Woodstock"?

seq level0 \*arabic2497             MR. MARRATTO:  What probably you would hear would be outstanding events that had happened, maybe performances or achievements.  You might hear some historical information.  There's a young lady who Brad is familiar with who used to work for us at the radio station in Woodstock just a few years ago who has let it be known that she would make herself available to produce these features again.

seq level0 \*arabic2498             She does historical things on, you know, famous people and events that took place in Woodstock over the years.  The first hanging that ever occurred in Woodstock and various other things of that nature.

seq level0 \*arabic2499             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  The mayor is starting to look at you sideways again.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2500             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You've got a very Gothic turn of phrase.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2501             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You stick with radio; he'll stick with politics.

seq level0 \*arabic2502             And the listener feedback, how will that work?  It's not a phone‑in show, so I gather it's something you're getting in the can, as it were, ahead of time.

seq level0 \*arabic2503             MR. MARRATTO:  If I could best explain it, perhaps, and I'm going to steal it from somebody else now.

seq level0 \*arabic2504             I mean, Citytv does a great job of this visually and it's the kind of thing we'll do from an audio standpoint.  You know, we'll provide a forum for people to call in and air their beef or their complaint about the mayor or about whatever else is happening in the city, right, and we'll ‑‑ of course we will have to necessarily edit in, but then we'll present those bits throughout our day.

seq level0 \*arabic2505             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You must buy a great lunch because you ... otherwise this is a tough relationship.

seq level0 \*arabic2506             Okay.  So people show up at the kind of Speakers Corner or whatever it is and they air their opinions and then you pick them and play them.

seq level0 \*arabic2507             And then the local cut‑ins, as you called them, just give me a little more information on those.

seq level0 \*arabic2508             MR. BYRNES:  Well, that's really the community cut‑ins.  That's where we have our station vehicle going out to events.

seq level0 \*arabic2509             Brad can certainly talk to some of the great events that the city is already involved with and one of the big challenges is actually getting that information out, giving people reasons to attend those events, and so we see that as being a very important part of our community commitment, is to have that vehicle on the road and doing live cut‑ins to the radio station, you know, talking about Cowapalooza or something like that.

seq level0 \*arabic2510             Brad, do you want to give a couple of examples?

seq level0 \*arabic2511             MR. JANSSEN:  This past weekend we just hosted a world‑class fastball tournament attracting six of the top‑ten teams in the world. Woodstock has traditionally been a hotbed for fastball.  We attracted probably 4 to 5,000 people.

seq level0 \*arabic2512             And to have the immediacy of a radio station on site promoting the event ‑‑ we brought in a lot of community service groups, provided opportunities for other ball teams to generate revenues for their cases and their teams and community service groups.

seq level0 \*arabic2513             It look a lot of volunteers and to have the immediacy of getting the word out to the community provides a better opportunity for everybody for the bottom line.

seq level0 \*arabic2514             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So is that the sort of thing that if the ‑‑ if the fastball tournament or the Alzheimer fund‑raiser or the Terry Fox Run or whatever were happening on a Saturday morning, Friday afternoon you would just simply cut into the local programming and you would be on‑site and so that the normal local programming would be altered by your presence with the van on site?  Is that how it would work?

seq level0 \*arabic2515             MR. BYRNES:  Well, we see that actually as an important part of the programming, Commissioner.

seq level0 \*arabic2516             You know, one of the criticisms of radio these past few years is they have become bits of jukeboxes and so we think this is very, very important, to be reflective of the community, and we can still do that and still play, you know, our 40 per cent Cancon and all those things, but it's the local feeling that when you listen to this radio station it isn't going to sound like a radio station out of London or out of Kitchener.

seq level0 \*arabic2517             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I wasn't being judgmental.  I really was simply trying to understand how it would work, you know, just physically or what we would hear.

seq level0 \*arabic2518             So I would be listening to my normal perhaps Saturday morning show, is that it ‑‑ tell me if I'm wrong on this ‑‑ and then, Brad, you would be in the van at the Alzheimer fund‑raiser or whatever and we would get some input from you?  Is that how it would work?

seq level0 \*arabic2519             MR. JANSSEN:  Yes, Mr. Commissioner.  It's been my experience that, having worked with Gord before, that the popularity of the radio station was predicated on its visibility within the community and not only would they be on site promoting this charity barbecue or a car wash or things such as that and doing cut‑ins, it would probably be prepromoted in that sense as well and it's just a feel‑good type thing, that the station goes care, they're out there glad handing, maybe doing some sampling and things such as that, but it really does create a buzz within the community when they see a community cruiser with the lights flashing, some signages, things such as that.

seq level0 \*arabic2520             MR. MARRATTO:  Can I just add one thing to maybe answer your question a little more clearly.

seq level0 \*arabic2521             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

seq level0 \*arabic2522             MR. MARRATTO:  You said what would it sound like to me as the listener and what in fact it would sound like is after a piece of music had played, instead of the announcer at 10:20 in the morning talking about some other thing or what's coming up next or whatever, that announcer would flip it over to Brad Janssen in the community cruiser and he would give a report on what's happening at the Terry Fox Run or whatever other event it is.

seq level0 \*arabic2523             So you would hear it integrated into the programming and it would be your information source, your enrichment material, you know.

seq level0 \*arabic2524             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you anticipate doing more extensive remote, so that maybe you would move the whole kit 'n caboodle out to the shopping centre for the Snowsuit Fund pre‑Christmas charity drive or that sort of thing?

seq level0 \*arabic2525             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, specifically, you know, a radio station deals with its commercial remotes that are paid for by the commercial host, whoever that happens to be, the box store mall or whatever, and then we do the ones that are just for information and just for the service of the community that may not necessarily be sponsored by an advertiser and those are just instead of the announcer, as I say, speaking from the studio you're going to get your information from the person in that community cruiser at whatever event it is that he's covering.

seq level0 \*arabic2526             So but, yes, we will be doing remotes as such, commercial and non‑commercial remotes.

seq level0 \*arabic2527             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Seems to me, then, I'm only guessing, but it seems to me you may be underselling yourself as a local voice.  I mean, it may be that there's a lot more to you locally than even your very enthusiastic application and supplementary briefs say.

seq level0 \*arabic2528             Have you tried to put some kind of time factor on just how much Woodstock you'll be bringing these people through this sort of cut‑in and remote type of activity?

seq level0 \*arabic2529             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, in our application we tried to present to you the minimum that we would provide.

seq level0 \*arabic2530             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2531             MR. MARRATTO:  Because anything else is ‑‑ you know, it's like a forecast financial statement, it only becomes real when you actually can put the stamp on it.

seq level0 \*arabic2532             So in fact, yes, you are right.  I mean, I suppose we could have sat here and guessed what we might do in terms of these other local events and these other happenings, but we felt if safest to tell you that this is the minimum that we will do. We'll have lots of other local involvement in our community, because we are experienced broadcasters.

seq level0 \*arabic2533             I think that's something that we bring with us.  We're not only experienced broadcasters, but, boy, we have had experience in Woodstock.  So I think we know how to address the events and things that happen in Woodstock and I think we also know how to react and respond to the specific people of Oxford County.

seq level0 \*arabic2534             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Using the definition of "local" in the sense of overcall local programming, your weekly programming, is it safe to assume, then, that a hundred percent of what comes out of your station will be local?

seq level0 \*arabic2535             MR. MARRATTO:  Very definitely, sir.  We will be producing nothing anywhere else.

seq level0 \*arabic2536             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Now, let's talk about "local" in a more colloquial sense.

seq level0 \*arabic2537             You're a hundred percent local under our terms.  You've got an awful lot of local here that you've described today and enthusiastically described in your supplementary brief and your opening remarks and you've said repeatedly that local has fled Woodstock, that it's just not there anymore.

seq level0 \*arabic2538             I mean, how much are we hearing on CKDK‑FM and on the much smaller CJFH‑FM, the Christian station.  How much local does one hear?

seq level0 \*arabic2539             Maybe the mayor wants to answer this or maybe one of you do.  Anyway, you can answer it as you like, but when we really get down to it, if I'm sitting there in the kitchen baking brownies for three or four hours and I'm listening to these stations, one or both of them somehow, how much reference to Woodstock am I actually getting?

seq level0 \*arabic2540             MR. MARRATTO:  I think we'll let the mayor answer that.  He's there every day.

seq level0 \*arabic2541             MR. HARDING:  None.  Just none. They've never made a call, never shown up at a County Council meeting, never shown up at City Council, never done an interview and every time they say something it's long after the fact.

seq level0 \*arabic2542             So I can say from my own personal experience, I can't say that I've listened to all their content, but I know what would demonstrate for me an interest in truly a local licence and it hasn't happened.

seq level0 \*arabic2543             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What about things like weather and a little bit of local news, a little bit of local sports, anything like that?

seq level0 \*arabic2544             MR. MARRATTO:  From our monitors of the station that is licensed there now, CKDK‑FM, they have since they made some changes in the last few months, they are now acknowledging the City of Woodstock with a mention in the weather.  I think once an hour in the mornings they say the Woodstock weather ‑‑ weather in Woodstock, London and so on and they lead off with Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2545             And they also, from what I can gather, in the mornings at least one of their newscasts have a Woodstock story, which apparently, to the best of my knowledge, and so I'm not being critical of them, but apparently it's just taken verbatim from the previous night's newspaper.

seq level0 \*arabic2546             But that's, for all intents and purposes ‑‑ now, Brad also lives in the community and is a ‑‑ is employed by the City and while he is here as a prospective employee of our company, he is still also able to give you some kind of an objective observation as far as what they do.

seq level0 \*arabic2547             Brad, could you speak to that?

seq level0 \*arabic2548             MR. JANSSEN:  With regard to community involvement or news?

seq level0 \*arabic2549             MR. MARRATTO:  With respect to how local ‑‑ how local ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2550             MR. JANSSEN:  There's just not the visibility there since everything more or less moved down Highway 2.

seq level0 \*arabic2551             It's difficult to make a contact with the organization with regard to soliciting their involvement.  There has been some sponsorship opportunities from my end that I've brought in stations if it fits their demographic, but the communication has certainly been broken down, I find, since they've picked up and moved on.

seq level0 \*arabic2552             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You speak in paragraph 27 about your own plans and one of things ‑‑ of your opening remark today and one of the things you mention which, of course, is corroborated by the contour map you filed with us, is that you're going to resist the temptation to move down Highway 2 in any way because your contours, in fact, don't hit the big time, they don't hit London, they don't hit Kitchener, they don't hit Stratford, and that seems to be the case in examining your contour map.

seq level0 \*arabic2553             Now, this is a little dicey, so maybe we can just work on this together.  How do we keep you pure of heart and mind?  How do we keep you from pushing that antenna a little higher up the pole or a just tiny bit more power?

seq level0 \*arabic2554             And I guess really the only thing I can think of is to impose on you a condition of licence to keep you right where you say you want to be?  Would you object to that?

seq level0 \*arabic2555             MR. BYRNES:  Not at all.  We would be very happy to accept that as a condition of licence.  I think one of the benefits that as we talked the streets of Woodstock, that was something that the locals told us very, very loud and clear. They said, "You know what?  We have had one other company come to town and move on us.  Don't do that to us."  And so our commitment to the people of Woodstock is we've shown what our technical parameters are.

seq level0 \*arabic2556             Aside from the fact there are some limitations from a technical point of view that would prevent us from doing that, we've made it pretty clear we think that ‑‑ we see our opportunity as doing a great job to serve the people of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2557             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But you've seen the contour maps of some of your competitors in this competitive process and they've managed, some of them, to slide that 5 millimetre ‑‑ whatever, 5 ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2558             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  .5.

seq level0 \*arabic2559             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ .5 circle around London and whatnot, so it clearly is technically feasible.

seq level0 \*arabic2560             MR. MARRATTO:  Yes, it is.  One of the things that we've done is in our application you'll notice we're proposing a 3 kilowatt transmitter.  I think you'll notice that in some of the other cases you'll see 10 kilowatt transmitters, you'll see towers that are 200 and some‑odd metres high up into the clouds.

seq level0 \*arabic2561             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2562             MR. MARRATTO:  We are going with very limited technical capability.

seq level0 \*arabic2563             Yes, you're right.  We could go and spend the money and put a 10 kilowatt transmitter in five years from now and find another tower to put our antenna up on, but we wouldn't have this man here now if he wasn't certain that we were going to be local people for as long as we're there.

seq level0 \*arabic2564             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you would have to come to us before you changed things.

seq level0 \*arabic2565             MR. MARRATTO:  Exactly.  We know that.

seq level0 \*arabic2566             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you might recall at that time the discussion we're having this morning.

seq level0 \*arabic2567             MR. MARRATTO:  Exactly.

seq level0 \*arabic2568             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Don't want to sound threatening.  It's just kind of a sense of history I would like you to keep in perspective.

seq level0 \*arabic2569             Well, then I guess we move to the last question, last area of questioning that I have and my colleagues may have others and counsel or staff may have others.

seq level0 \*arabic2570             But you're going to limit yourself. You're going to retain your purity and your focus and keep the mayor as happy as you can and speak little about tornados, but that really does have an impact on your financial plan.  It's got to.  Because, you know, London is an attractive, big market and there's lots of scope there to sell ads and there's lots of scope to make revenue and you're going to cut yourself voluntarily off from that and I guess I just ‑‑ the general question, and we can do a few specifics, is can you do it with the limited population you have, even keeping in mind the mayor's hope that it will double in the foreseeable future, keeping in mind the limited population base, and keeping in mind that competitors who are now in that market, very experienced broadcasters, lots of savvy, lots of know how, are not just going to roll over and let you eat their lunch, can you make a go of it based on those parameters?

seq level0 \*arabic2571             MR. MARRATTO:  Mr. Commissioner, I am quite confident we can.  Even given the restrictions that you put there as ‑‑ let's say the city doesn't grow in population and let's say the Toyota plant doesn't open up and that we're just dealing with todays' population, we're dealing with a city whose retail sales this year will be over 500 million dollars.

seq level0 \*arabic2572             Now, we can show you seven or eight cities in Southwestern and Southern Ontario region with retail sales of less than that that have very viable broadcasting stations and we also know that the station that is there now is not taking much out of the marketplace.

seq level0 \*arabic2573             Now, you say they won't roll over and play dead and we understand that, but it's ‑‑ you have a tough time being either fish or foul and they broadcast to a niche target group in London and Kitchener, in the bigger cities that doesn't represent very much when you get into a smaller city.  As you can see from the numbers, nine and a half share is what they're dealing with.

seq level0 \*arabic2574             So they can't really come into Woodstock and expect to sell a lot of advertising.

seq level0 \*arabic2575             So another factor is that I was there in ‑‑ between 1986 and 1991 with an FM station playing AC music and we achieved levels of $950,000 local then, when retail sales were only half of what they are now.

seq level0 \*arabic2576             So we have been very conservative of our estimates of projecting what we think we can do.  In fact, we think we can grow real well in the second, third, fourth and fifth year because it's there to be had.

seq level0 \*arabic2577             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, conservative maybe and I don't question you, but I do have a question about your projections.

seq level0 \*arabic2578             You're staying out of London, you're saying out of the big spots, you're limiting yourself to Woodstock and area, you're limiting yourself to your contour map and yet your prediction is to generate a net income of $589,000 by Year 7 and that's the highest of all of the applicants and some of the other applicants are not limiting themselves. They are going to go into London and bigger cities. So how does that figure?  I mean, I ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2579             MR. MARRATTO:  Could you repeat that figure?  It seems to me that our projections are for higher than that, but I'm not sure.  Did you say $589,000?

seq level0 \*arabic2580             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  By Year 7. Net income.

seq level0 \*arabic2581             MR. MARRATTO:  Oh, net income.  I'm sorry.

seq level0 \*arabic2582             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Net income of 589,000.  I'm sorry, I should have set "net".  I apologize.

seq level0 \*arabic2583             MR. MARRATTO:  No, that's all right.

seq level0 \*arabic2584             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  By Year 7.

seq level0 \*arabic2585             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  You did.

seq level0 \*arabic2586             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I did?  Oh, there you go.  Apparently I did say "net".

seq level0 \*arabic2587             MR. MARRATTO:  You probably said it right.  I was mixing up, thinking that you were talking about our sales in that period.

seq level0 \*arabic2588             But, no, okay.  You know, we do know that the revenue, the overall revenues that we've projected are there.  Of course it's up to us to operate efficiently and to be able to perform properly, but the revenues that we're projecting, we know they're achievable because we've done it before and we've done the arithmetic this time to figure out how much is spent in advertising out of 500 million in retail sales and we know that there's a pool for radio there of almost two million dollars.

seq level0 \*arabic2589             So, I mean, even if we're conservative and say let's leave room for The Hawk to do its share out of Woodstock and Oxford County. Let's leave room for Tillsonburg to do its share.  We can still more than easily reach the figures that we're projecting here.

seq level0 \*arabic2590             The reason we've grown our figures quite well over the seven years is because we're holding back the horses in the first year because we know we're going to have to reeducate people.  We know that there's a lot of these people who have not advertised on radio for twelve, fourteen years, since I was there the last time, because the station that's there now either doesn't appeal to them or is charging too high rates or whatever reason, they're not advertising now, so we have to retain them and that's why we've allowed ourselves a little time to grow our revenues.

seq level0 \*arabic2591             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So are you going to be charging lower rates than The Hawk?

seq level0 \*arabic2592             MR. MARRATTO:  Oh, yes, sir, we will.  We're estimating ‑‑ you can see from our forecast that we're talking about revenues of $40 a minute in the first year, which is average $20 a 30‑second announcement in the Woodstock market and, as I say, when I left there in 1989 we were charging $20, so I don't think we'll have any difficulty starting off at those levels.

seq level0 \*arabic2593             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Why do you think you would have to undercut them in a sense if you have this incredibly attractive local package?

seq level0 \*arabic2594             MR. MARRATTO:  Because we have to introduce ourselves first.  I mean, we have to let ourselves be know who we are, what we do, what we sound like and we deliver a good product and once we deliver a good product naturally we'll begin to increase our rates, yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2595             MR. BYRNES:  And it should also be noted that the radio station CKDK is really charging London rates and we've talked to a number of Woodstock advertisers who simply say they cannot afford to pay London rates to reach Woodstock advertisers, so we are not in the business of undercutting somebody else.  We want to put a realistic package on the streets, but we won't be broadcasting to London, we don't have to charge London rates.

seq level0 \*arabic2596             And I think the last point we'd like to make is that, you know, our capital expenditures are realistic.  We've looked at this very carefully.  We've certainly scratched our heads at some of the other proposals.  We're not quite sure how somebody is going to invest $790,000 on the same transmitter site if they're successful.

seq level0 \*arabic2597             So we've really sat down and looked at our numbers very carefully and we're very comfortable with them.

seq level0 \*arabic2598             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you think that you will attract, even without solicitation, advertising from London and Kitchener just because they want to get into your market, they want to remind people that they're out there and they sell cars or they do whatever they do?

seq level0 \*arabic2599             MR. MARRATTO:  There is that distinct possibility, sir, and we're not going to turn down an order from those places, but we won't solicit business there.

seq level0 \*arabic2600             I think that's the difference.  If someone calls us or if a branch of a company is in Woodstock and says you have to get your approval from Joe Glutz in Kitchener then we'll go and get the approval from Joe Glutz.

seq level0 \*arabic2601             But we won't have people over there selling on the street or in London.

seq level0 \*arabic2602             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And you say at page 19 in your supplementary brief that you feel 15 per cent of your audience would come from local stations, which again would have an impact on their revenue and an impact on yours.

seq level0 \*arabic2603             Can you give me any idea how you come to this conclusion or is it just an experienced guess?

seq level0 \*arabic2604             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, to some degree, you know, the conclusion is that when the research was done and we looked at where the audience is coming from, we're not going to take very much from CKDK, because we just aren't going after the same people.  We may take a little from the CKLT people in the Woodstock area, but we don't believe we're going to have any significant effect on local broadcasters.  No one of them is going to be affected by more than 3 share.

seq level0 \*arabic2605             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And finally, my last question, you speak so eloquently about this town and the region around it and the power to finance and the kind of anxiousness, almost, they're showing to run to you with bags of money and get advertising on your station.

seq level0 \*arabic2606             Is this area so strong right now that it could actually support two stations?  Could we licence two in that market?

seq level0 \*arabic2607             MR. MARRATTO:  You mean two in addition to the one that's there now?

seq level0 \*arabic2608             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, you and someone else, say.

seq level0 \*arabic2609             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, sir, I mean, that's a decision that I suppose the Commission has to make.

seq level0 \*arabic2610             In my estimation there is certainly room for one to be added to what's there now.  Who knows when the city becomes 70,000, if that's what it becomes ten years now, what the case will be.

seq level0 \*arabic2611             I think give the population of it now, if we take that template and put it over top of other communities in Southwestern Ontario, it would be pretty ambitious to put two in, but I'm going to let Chris speak to that.

seq level0 \*arabic2612             MR. BYRNES:  I think also, Commissioner, it's worth noting ‑‑ and you would have seen, perhaps, in our letter of intervention to the neighbouring station in Tillsonburg ‑‑ that our company made an effort to find another frequency for them to help out their situation and I think that if that was to become acceptable and you were to award the 104.7 frequency and the Tillsonburg radio station the frequency that we found for them, I think we would have no problem with that.

seq level0 \*arabic2613             I think that you've noticed that this is perhaps an unusual situation where we have six applicants all chasing the one frequency.

seq level0 \*arabic2614             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2615             MR. BYRNES:  We had our technical people look very, very carefully because we anticipated this question.  Is there another frequency that could be available in Woodstock?  And, you know, the best minds came back and said, "Guys, 104.7 is the only frequency for Woodstock.  There is however a frequency that will work for the people in Tillsonburg.

seq level0 \*arabic2616             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Which one was that again?  Sorry, refresh my memory, the one that you found for Tillsonburg.

seq level0 \*arabic2617             MR. MARRATTO:  I believe it's 107.1 and it's 250 watts.  It would get them about 16 kilometres omni from the Town of Tillsonburg.

seq level0 \*arabic2618             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2619             I think those are my questions.  The Chair usually gives you a few minutes to sum up and tell us why you're the berries, but before that there may be other questions.

seq level0 \*arabic2620             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, there are.  Thank you.  Commissioner Cram.

seq level0 \*arabic2621             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  And I hate to do this.  I'm into numbers.

seq level0 \*arabic2622             Thank you for being candid, actually.  At the back of your presentation today you were talking about live to air 77 hours each week. So that's 11 hours a day and the rest will be voice tracked?

seq level0 \*arabic2623             MR. BYRNES:  That's a minimum commitment, live to air 77 hours.  That only leaves the evening and overnight periods and we still haven't made our final decision as to exactly how that will be dealt with.

seq level0 \*arabic2624             Our feeling at this point is that that will be produced locally inside the radio station in the early evening and voice tracked by one of our staff.  But our commitment is definitely 77 hours live.

seq level0 \*arabic2625             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Minimum, yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2626             MR. BYRNES:  Minimum.

seq level0 \*arabic2627             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So What are those hours.  Seven in the morning until six at night or something like that?

seq level0 \*arabic2628             MR. MARRATTO:  No, that works out to six in the morning until seven at night is 13 hours times five is 65 and then six hours each day on Saturday and Sunday.  The six hours likely being from ten in the morning until four in the afternoon, the midday portion.

seq level0 \*arabic2629             People, the habits are different on Saturday and Sunday.  People get up a little later, so your real morning show is more like ten o'clock in the morning.

seq level0 \*arabic2630             So we would do that live on Saturday and Sunday and track ‑‑ voice track the early morning and the late evening.

seq level0 \*arabic2631             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And what if a Tornado happens outside of that time?

seq level0 \*arabic2632             MR. MARRATTO:  Well, you can believe that we'll have ‑‑ that place will be manned all the time.  We'll have somebody there.  That's the one advantage.

seq level0 \*arabic2633             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, making sure the buttons are turned or whatever.

seq level0 \*arabic2634             MR. MARRATTO:  Making sure there's a voice that can pick up information and get it out to the people and tell them "Get out of your homes or do whatever you have to do.  There's tornados coming."  You know, we'll make sure that we don't miss anything.

seq level0 \*arabic2635             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And the 40 per cent Cancon is the regulatory broadcast week that you were talking about.

seq level0 \*arabic2636             MR. BYRNES:  Yes, it is.

seq level0 \*arabic2637             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

seq level0 \*arabic2638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice‑Chair French.

seq level0 \*arabic2639             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Mayor, are you hear representing the Council and the City of Woodstock?

seq level0 \*arabic2640             MR. HARDING:  The City of Woodstock passed a resolution supporting this application.

seq level0 \*arabic2641             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2643             Those are our questions.  We'll break now for 15 minutes.  Unless you do want to ‑‑ you do want to summarize and I would be remiss in not allowing you to do that, so go ahead, Mr. Byrnes.

seq level0 \*arabic2644             MR. BYRNES:  Thank you, Commissioner.

seq level0 \*arabic2645             This is, I suppose, our opportunity in closing to give some reasons why we feel strongly our application should be approved.

seq level0 \*arabic2646             I'm going to say a few things and then pass it over to my business partner Gord Marratto to finish.

seq level0 \*arabic2647             Firstly we're a new entrant in the broadcast industry and will be a distinctive new voice in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2648             The radio station will offer relevant news, weather, sport and community programming.

seq level0 \*arabic2649             We received over 400 individual quality letters of support for this application from the Woodstock area, so we feel the community has certainly spoken and supported our application.

seq level0 \*arabic2650             $105,000 in distinct, direct initiatives to Canada talent development over the term of the licence we feel is a benefit.  40 per cent Cancon, Canadian content over the broadcast week and live to air 77 hours each.

seq level0 \*arabic2651             We promise to be active in the community, offering community access to the station through interviews, public service announcements and local programming.

seq level0 \*arabic2652             And as Brad mentioned earlier, we'll implement a community advisor committee to assist the radio station to better reflect the community issues.  Gord?

seq level0 \*arabic2653             MR. MARRATTO:  There will, of course, be five hours and 20 minutes per week of news and in total more than 11 hours weekly of news and spoken word content.

seq level0 \*arabic2654             I believe we've demonstrated the market can sustain and additional commercial radio service.  There will be minimal impact on existing licensees in surrounding areas, including Corus and Tillsonburg.

seq level0 \*arabic2655             Approval will add to the economic growth of Woodstock with 13 full‑time and 3 part‑time employees living and working in the city.

seq level0 \*arabic2656             Byrnes has previous broadcast management experience in Woodstock and has the financial capacity to implement this proposal and we sincerely believe the proposal will be the best fit for Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2657             I think in closing here that our company is uniquely qualified to be the best operator of a radio station in Woodstock.  We're local people with grassroots in the community and with a commitment to do an excellent job of building a fine radio station.  We have been there before, built a good radio station that the community appreciated, and we can do it again.

seq level0 \*arabic2658             We understand the needs and wants of the people living in the area as well as the expectations they have.

seq level0 \*arabic2659             We're prepared to turn up our sleeves and give the community what it needs to the very best of our ability and that's our promise to the Commission and the people of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2660             Thank you very much.  And the mayor would just like to say one little bit here, so hold on.

seq level0 \*arabic2661             MR. HARDING:  I feel compelled to talk about the weather.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2662             MR. HARDING:  We are surrounded in the City of Woodstock by a thriving agricultural community for whom the weather is a natural phenomenon, unlike when I was growing up in the City of Toronto, that it was an inconvenience.

seq level0 \*arabic2663             It does produce a hardy people who are not easily intimidated by the elements and I can tell you that it also produces a highly‑prized, highly‑motivated workforce which our city benefits. That's it.

seq level0 \*arabic2664             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, very much, gentlemen.  We will now break for 15 minutes.  Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1107 / Reprise à 1107

seq level0 \*arabic2665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

seq level0 \*arabic2666             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

seq level0 \*arabic2667             We will now proceed with item 3 on the agenda, which is an application by Standard Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language commercial radio programming undertaking in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2668             The new station would operate on frequency 104.7 megahertz, channel 284B, with an average effected radiated power of 2,630 watts.

seq level0 \*arabic2669             Mr. Braden Doerr will introduce his colleagues.

seq level0 \*arabic2670             You have 20 minutes for your presentation.


seq level0 \*arabic2671             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2672             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Commission. My name is Braden Doerr and I am the vice‑president and general manager of Standard's radio stations in London, Ontario.

seq level0 \*arabic2673             Before we begin, I would like to introduce you to the members of our team, who have all played a key role in developing our application for a new FM radio station in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2674             To my right is Kim Woodbridge, the morning news anchor on Standard's country station, BX 93 in London.  Kim has covered the Woodstock area since 1999 when she joined Standard as a reporter and will be the news director at our new station if our application is approved.

seq level0 \*arabic2675             To Kim's right and at a table all of his own is a Dan MacGillivray, the general sales manager of our London cluster.  Dan has twenty years of experience in retail radio sales.

seq level0 \*arabic2676             To my left is Karen Steele, the assistant program director and promotions director MIX 99.9 in Toronto.

seq level0 \*arabic2677             Karen also served as the assistant program director and the promotions director for Woodstock's Energy 103.9 during the late 1990's.  She will be responsible for programming our new station if our application is approved.

seq level0 \*arabic2678             To Karen's left is Jennifer McLellan, finance manager and controller at Standard's London radio stations.  Jennifer obtained her CGA designation in October of 2004 after joining us three years earlier.

seq level0 \*arabic2679             In the row behind me on the far right is Ryan Ford.  Ryan is a Woodstock native and for four years has been a guitarist and songwriter with The Weekend, a Canadian modern rock band.

seq level0 \*arabic2680             Ryan has toured with The Weekend across Canada, the U.S., Japan, Australia and Indonesia.  The Weekend's latest album, "Beatbox My Heartbeat," was released last February.  Ryan has agreed to serve as a music consultant at our new station if our application is approved.

seq level0 \*arabic2681             Beside Ryan is Gary Slaight, president and chief executive officer of Standard Radio Inc.

seq level0 \*arabic2682             It's been a great year for Gary. He recently received CAB's Outstanding Community Service by an Individual Broadcaster Award and he was also inducted into the Music Industry Hall of Fame.

seq level0 \*arabic2683             To Gary's left is John Yerxa, the president and CEO of John Yerxa Research Inc, who was commissioned by Standard to conduct audience and format research in the Woodstock market.

seq level0 \*arabic2684             John has been conducting independent market research studies since the mid‑1980s and has an extensive knowledge of the Canadian radio market.

seq level0 \*arabic2685             Finally, to John's left is Stuart Hahn, who is with Elder Engineering, the engineering firm that created the technical brief for our radio application.

seq level0 \*arabic2686             So that is our team, which has been working at making 104.7 The Zone a reality since the fall of last year.

seq level0 \*arabic2687             And we would now like to begin our presentation.

seq level0 \*arabic2688             Mr. Chair and members of the Commission, we are very excited to be here today to apply for a new modern rock FM radio station for Woodstock to be called The Zone.

seq level0 \*arabic2689             There is an incredible demand for this format and an explosion of interest in modern rock in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2690             Our research was extensive and thorough and we were the only one that asked the question what does the market really want?  The results came back overwhelmingly in favour of modern rock format for this market.

seq level0 \*arabic2691             Our application meets the needs of underserved local listeners and the extensive pent‑up demand of local advertisers for a new Woodstock radio station that targets the 18 to 34 demographic.

seq level0 \*arabic2692             Woodstock is a very youthful market with 62 per cent of the people under the age of 44.

seq level0 \*arabic2693             In addition, of all the applications before you at this hearing, Standard's is the one that will do the most for new and emerging Canadian talent through our 40 per cent Canadian content proposal and our significant Canadian talent development package.

seq level0 \*arabic2694             The City of Woodstock very much needs and wants a new local radio station.  There's currently only one private commercial radio station licensed to serve this market.  The area is also presently saturated with a wide range of out‑of‑market mainstream radio stations that provide very little, if any, programming that is reflective of the local Woodstock region.

seq level0 \*arabic2695             If approved, our application will provide a level of local service commensurate with the needs of this rapidly growing community.

seq level0 \*arabic2696             Standard is a family‑owned and operated business and a leading Canadian broadcaster. With 51 radio stations in seven provinces we have a long history of public and community service.  We also fully understand the importance of local radio in smaller communities.

seq level0 \*arabic2697             In preparing our application Standard listened to the needs expressed by many members of the Woodstock community for a radio station that will provide a strong and consistent focus on Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2698             We also closely analysed the Woodstock economy and we commissioned extensive research.  Based on our research we developed an application that will make a significant contribution to Canadian artists, the Canadian broadcasting system and the residents of the Woodstock region.

seq level0 \*arabic2699             I will now ask others members of our team to speak to their areas of the expertise concerning or application, beginning to John Yerxa, who will speak to you about why we chose this particular format.

seq level0 \*arabic2700             MR. YERXA:  Thank you, Braden.

seq level0 \*arabic2701             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, John Yerxa Research carried out an extensive audience survey for Standard Radio in the Woodstock CMA in December of 2004.

seq level0 \*arabic2702             The purpose of the study was to identify among radio listeners between 18 to 54 years of age the most appropriate format for a new station to serve the Woodstock area.

seq level0 \*arabic2703             We also sought to determine how satisfied these listeners were with the amount of local information currently being provided on the local radio dial.

seq level0 \*arabic2704             Our research shows that there is strong listener demand for modern rock amongst Woodstock radio listeners.  81 per cent of 18 to 29 year olds say they would listen to the format.

seq level0 \*arabic2705             Amongst 30 to 39 year olds that percentage is 74 per cent.

seq level0 \*arabic2706             Modern rock easily ranks number one within the 18 to 29 age cell along with strong support amongst 30 to 39 year olds as well.

seq level0 \*arabic2707             In addition, our research demonstrated a significantly high level of dissatisfaction with the amount of local information currently provided on the radio in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2708             24 per cent stated that they were not satisfied with the amount of local information currently provided.  Moreover, almost seven out of ten respondents replied "yes" to the question "Would you be interested in hearing more news, weather traffic and community information concerning the Woodstock region?"

seq level0 \*arabic2709             Standard's new station will also have minimal impact on Woodstock's existing classic rock station that targets males 35 plus.

seq level0 \*arabic2710             We project that our new Woodstock station will attain a 13 per cent market share of tuning at launch and grow at a rate of 3 to 5 per cent thereafter and will specifically focus on the 18 to 34 audience.

seq level0 \*arabic2711             The Zone will also repatriate a large number of listeners to Woodstock radio.

seq level0 \*arabic2712             Given these results we believe a well‑executed modern rock station would dominate 18 to 34 listening in the Woodstock area by attracting new listeners and the broadcast of local information will be essential to the station's long‑term success.

seq level0 \*arabic2713             In light of these findings we concluded that there is a significant opportunity for a new modern rock station in Woodstock, Ontario.

seq level0 \*arabic2714             Dan MacGillivray will now speak to you about sales and the Woodstock market.

seq level0 \*arabic2715             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Thank you, John.

seq level0 \*arabic2716             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, for the past 20 years I have been selling radio advertising and managing sales department in Southwestern, Ontario.

seq level0 \*arabic2717             I've also watched with great interest the excelling job that the Woodstock City Council has done over the past few years in attracting new businesses and industry to their city.

seq level0 \*arabic2718             Our research and experience show that this market is very strong and can very much support the licensing of a new commercial FM radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2719             The past few years have seen important economic growth in the Woodstock area. Retail spending, population growth, building permits, and new business licences show steady increases year over year.

seq level0 \*arabic2720             Our revenue estimates are driven by a plan consisting of four key points.  We looked at extensive research, we surveyed key national advertisers to assess demand and through our experience in selling local advertising we gauged local advertiser acceptance and, finally, relied on Standard's proven expertise in developing small market radio revenues.

seq level0 \*arabic2721             In preparing our application we also identified a number of key advertising categories that would be served well by a modern rock radio station.  These include consumer electronics, automobile, beer, fast food, movie theatres, video stores and the automobile aftermarket.

seq level0 \*arabic2722             Our revenue projections are conservative, realistic and achievable in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2723             This is a strong, vibrant and growing region.  I'm certain that this market can support a new FM modern rock radio station with minimal impact on the existing FM service in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2724             I will now ask Karen Steele to talk to you about what listeners can expect to hear on The Zone.

seq level0 \*arabic2725             MS STEELE:  Thank you, Dan.

seq level0 \*arabic2726             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I am extremely pleased to have this opportunity to you today about modern rock, which is currently one of the most exciting formats in the country.

seq level0 \*arabic2727             The programming of The Zone will be unique to the Woodstock market.  At present no other station in the area programs pure modern rock.

seq level0 \*arabic2728             With our commitment to broadcasting no less than 40 per cent Canadian content we'll have the opportunity to break Canadian acts.  We are also very committed to give much‑needed on‑ and off‑air opportunities to Woodstock and regional musicians.

seq level0 \*arabic2729             Superstar Canadian artists that will be heard on The Zone will include Simple Plan, Sum 41, The Tea Party, Nickelback, Our Lady Peace, Billy Talent and Three Days Grace.

seq level0 \*arabic2730             Emerging artists in the format include dozens and dozens of Canadian bands and artists, such as Death from Above 1979, The Waking Eyes, Hot Hot Heat and The Dears.

seq level0 \*arabic2731             These are impressive lists, which is why we're more than comfortable with our 40 per cent Canadian content commitment.

seq level0 \*arabic2732             In order to ensure that the radio station remains in touch with the ever‑changing local music scene an advisory board will be formed to provide ongoing feedback and direction to station programming.

seq level0 \*arabic2733             Media coverage of the modern rock format is at an all‑time high.  The February 2005 edition of Spin Magazine featured 14 Canadian acts in a major story entitled "Montreal, The Next Big Scene."  The Canadian artists featured in the story include The Dears, The Sam Roberts Band, Stars and The Arcade Fire, who will occupy a significant place in our music library.

seq level0 \*arabic2734             Time Magazine also recently featured an article on Canadian modern rock.  In its April 4th issue it featured The Arcade Fire on the cover and did a story called "Canada's Most Intriguing Rock Band".  We have attached a copy of that article with the materials that we distributed to you this morning.

seq level0 \*arabic2735             Modern rock artists also did very well at this year's Juno award.  The Best New Group award went to ‑‑ my brother's band ‑‑ Alexisonfire, a Canadian modern rock band, and the Best New Group award was Billy Talent, also a Canadian modern rock band.

seq level0 \*arabic2736             With us today is Ryan Ford, a local modern rock musician, who will talk to you about the modern rock music scene in the Woodstock area.

seq level0 \*arabic2737             MR. FORD:  Thank you, Karen.

seq level0 \*arabic2738             I met Braden and he asked me to check out The Zone's website so see what I thought about a modern rock station in my hometown.  I looked at it and also at Standard's website and then e‑mailed him to say it was an awesome idea.

seq level0 \*arabic2739             The station is willing to support a lot of local area acts, something that isn't happening with the stations we have now.

seq level0 \*arabic2740             It's pretty much impossible for local bands ‑‑ and there are a lot of them ‑‑ to get any attention around Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2741             The Woodstock station programs older classic rock and the other London rock station doesn't play much independent material at all.

seq level0 \*arabic2742             There's also a really big following for modern rock in Woodstock.  When the local bands and other modern rock bands perform they get a really good turnout.  This can improve with a local outlet for this type of music.

seq level0 \*arabic2743             I think this is just what Woodstock needs.  There are a lot of younger musicians in the city who are looking for help.  Some of them have stopped listening to radio altogether because it sounds the same to them and having a station like The Zone will certainly change that.

seq level0 \*arabic2744             We have to get the bands out of the basements and develop their talent.

seq level0 \*arabic2745             I also think that The Zone's Canadian talent development programs, like the Live Concert Series and Zone Home Grown, will be great for local modern rock bands and for modern rock fans in my hometown.

seq level0 \*arabic2746             Karen will now talk to you about Standard's Canadian talent development proposal.

seq level0 \*arabic2747             MS STEELE:  Standard has proposed significant benefits for the development of Canadian talent in the amount of $500,000 over the seven year licence term.

seq level0 \*arabic2748             The two key components of our benefits package are our Live Concert Series and our Zone Home Grown competition.

seq level0 \*arabic2749             The Live Concert Series will present an evening of local Woodstock bands that have been requested stage time from The Zone.  The shows will be broadcast live on our station and each band will be given a hundred CD copies of their performance to distribute to the music industry.

seq level0 \*arabic2750             The Live Concert Series will be staged twice a year in the first two years of the station's licence and three times a year thereafter.

seq level0 \*arabic2751             Zone Home Grown will be an annual competition featuring recordings submitted by local acts.  The top act will receive $10,000 and a compilation CD will be produced, pressed and distributed throughout Ontario.

seq level0 \*arabic2752             Other initiatives include Woodstock North, a live summer music festival, a designated group scholarship program for Fanshawe College's Music Industry Arts program, as well as support the FACTOR and Canadian Music Week.

seq level0 \*arabic2753             Our non‑cash benefits for Canadian talent will consist of $350,000 over seven years for a national free ad plan which runs commercials promoting new Canadian CDs.

seq level0 \*arabic2754             I'm very enthusiastic about the opportunity of programming The Zone and our extensive benefits package.

seq level0 \*arabic2755             Our research tells us that Woodstock desperately wants and needs a new modern rock station based in the city and that provides information of local importance.

seq level0 \*arabic2756             MR. DOERR:  Thank you, Karen.

seq level0 \*arabic2757             Standard recognizes that The Zone will be given a major opportunity to become an active leader in improving life in Woodstock if our application is approved.

seq level0 \*arabic2758             This philosophy will be executed in a number of public service initiatives.  Standard's PSA program will open The Zone's studios to community groups interested in producing their own public service announcements.  Our production staff will supervise this program to ensure the best possible quality at no cost to the participants.

seq level0 \*arabic2759             A minimum of four PSA commercials will be broadcast daily 365 days a year.  The estimated value of this campaign is $50,000 annually.

seq level0 \*arabic2760             Each year Standard radio stations across the country raise money to support local charities.  In 2005, Standard raised over seven million dollars to assist local hospitals in each of the markets we serve.  This year Standard Radio Toronto made fund‑raising history in support of the Hospital for Sick Children with a world record amount of 3.2 million dollars donated during the Have a Heart for Sick Kids radiothon.

seq level0 \*arabic2761             In late April of this year the 6th annual standard London radiothon for children raised nearly $450,000 for the Children's Health Foundation bringing the total donation since the radiothon's inception in 2000 to over 1.7 million dollars.

seq level0 \*arabic2762             The Children's Health Foundation is part of the Children's Hospital of Western Ontario and is dedicated to raising funds to support specialized health care and research for children and youth.

seq level0 \*arabic2763             We will make similar efforts with the Woodstock General Hospital as they work towards raising the 90 million dollars needed to pay for the building of their new facility in the city.

seq level0 \*arabic2764             Along with developing Canadian talent and our community involvement news is going to be a key part of Standard's service.  The Zone's news director will be Kim Woodbridge and she would like to talk to you about that.

seq level0 \*arabic2765             MS WOODBRIDGE:  Thank you, Braden.

seq level0 \*arabic2766             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, our application offers an opportunity for diversity in the market and we'll bring a dedicated news voice to the region.

seq level0 \*arabic2767             With the availability of information from so many media sources, our focus will be on local news, with a goal of 70 per cent local stories.

seq level0 \*arabic2768             The Woodstock market is blanketed by 17 BBM‑rated radio signals yet there's very little local news and information available on radio in this area.  We've heard from local officials, such as the Chief of the Oxford County Police Services and the Development Commissioner for the City of Woodstock about the difficulties they face in providing quick and accurate broadcasts of critical information such as missing persons, school cancellations, power outages, bus delays and road closures.

seq level0 \*arabic2769             We would like to address these issues.  Our news programming plans include 61 live newscasts each week and a total of four hours per week of news content.

seq level0 \*arabic2770             Our new centre will provide traffic and road information, sports, weather, business reports and entertainment highlights.

seq level0 \*arabic2771             Coverage is also planned for City and County Council meetings, local school board meetings and the Oxford Board of Health meetings.

seq level0 \*arabic2772             Staffing of our new centre will consist of two full‑time reporters, one part‑time reporter and myself.  Our news team will provide a level of local service that the Woodstock community has not seen for many years.

seq level0 \*arabic2773             By awarding this new licence to Standard the Commission will be giving radio listeners a reliable local news option delivered by a team of the most experienced and best news people in the business.

seq level0 \*arabic2774             Jennifer McLellan will now talk to you about our human resources practices.

seq level0 \*arabic2775             MS. McLELLAN:  Thank you, Kim.

seq level0 \*arabic2776             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I'm excited to be associated with Standard Radio Inc., an organization that while large in a national sense operates the London stations in an independent entrepreneurial manner with respect to operations and managing resources, particularly our human resources, the lifeblood of our stations.

seq level0 \*arabic2777             Standard is committed to its diversity plan, which is very specific.  It has six key points encompassing recruitment, selection and hiring, training and development, promotion, retention, accommodation and restructuring.

seq level0 \*arabic2778             Each of these areas has defined procedures and policies to follow during the course of the plan.  We will implement these policies in Woodstock and plan to work with all members of the community to ensure our workforce is representative of the public we serve.

seq level0 \*arabic2779             I would now like to hand the floor back over to Braden Doerr.

seq level0 \*arabic2780             MR. DOERR:  Thank you, Jennifer.

seq level0 \*arabic2781             Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we have presented what we consider to be a well thought out and strong application.

seq level0 \*arabic2782             The key elements of our application are summarized on the easel to my left and are the following:  A new and strong local voice for Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2783             The only proposal for new music in this market.

seq level0 \*arabic2784             No less than 40 per cent Canadian content broadcast on the station throughout the broadcast week.  This is an unmatched amount at this hearing and was filed in our original application.

seq level0 \*arabic2785             A benefits package of no less than $500,000 over seven years for the development of Canadian artistic talent, in addition to $350,000 for our national free ad plan to promote new Canadian CDs.

seq level0 \*arabic2786             $350,000 for our community access plan, which provides support for community members for the development and broadcast of public service announcements.

seq level0 \*arabic2787             Extensive small market expertise.

seq level0 \*arabic2788             Detailed and current news coverage of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2789             And, finally, a realistic and achievable business plan.

seq level0 \*arabic2790             In preparing our application we commissioned research in the market, made reasonable assumptions and met with members of the Woodstock community.

seq level0 \*arabic2791             We chose a format that was missing in the market, which will have minimal impact on the existing radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2792             We also listened to the concerns of community members, local business people and officials.  In response to their needs we want to create a radio station that will speak to this community on an ongoing and daily basis.

seq level0 \*arabic2793             We would like to thank the leaders of the numerous community groups, charitable organization, the recording industry and residents of Woodstock and area for their endorsement and letters of support for our application.

seq level0 \*arabic2794             Please allow me to quote from a few of these supportive letters.

seq level0 \*arabic2795             First is a quote from Norwich District Optimist Member Sheila Van Ymeren.

                      "After reviewing The Zone's website, their objectives, plans to promote new Canadian artists and musical groups I feel it would be a great asset to have this new industry in Woodstock."

seq level0 \*arabic2796             Next is a quote from Derek W. Ross the vice president, national promotions and media relations for EMI Music Canada.

                      "Modern Rock is a format many new artists are discovered from and I feel there is a need for new modern rock stations in Canada, period.  Standard Radio has a strong history that continues today in supporting talent in Canada.  Through the various initiatives The Zone has committed to in the application, the local music community, the Canadian music community and the Woodstock community will benefit greatly."

seq level0 \*arabic2797             Finally, this last quote is from Debbie Comuzzi, president and CEO of London's Children's Health Foundation:

                      "It would be the expressed view of CHF that Standard Radio Inc. be awarded the proposed radio station in Woodstock, Ontario.  I know first hand that they would embrace the Woodstock community by becoming an integral part of it and thereby filling a large void that currently exists in the Woodstock radio market."

seq level0 \*arabic2798             Woodstock is a growing region that deserves a new radio station.  Standards's proposal will bring a strong commitment to the local community, a new and unique voice to the radio waves and significant benefits for the development of local, regional and Canadian musical talent.

seq level0 \*arabic2799             That concludes our remarks.  We appreciate the opportunity to answer any questions you may have about our application.  Thank you very much.

seq level0 \*arabic2800             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cram.

seq level0 \*arabic2801             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you. Good morning and welcome.

seq level0 \*arabic2802             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic2803             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to start I guess almost philosophically on the issue of local programming and our requirements and your perception of our requirements and, in particular, I guess Mr. Slaight, you've got a copy of your letter about the complaint you made about The Hawk, the follow‑up letter dated October 15th, 2004.

seq level0 \*arabic2804             And I quote you ‑‑ and I'm only going to be talking about The Hawk.  You say it appears they're in substantial compliance with our directives.

seq level0 \*arabic2805             And the next paragraph you say while very few Woodstock news items were presented during the week, weather reports were frequently described as Hawk and you later commended them for having respected our directives.

seq level0 \*arabic2806             You know, of course, that we disagreed with you, that that wasn't local programming, and at the same time that this was happening, you were having your survey done by Mr. Yerxa and there was a significantly high level of dissatisfaction with the amount of local information currently provided on the radio.  That's what you said on page 4 today.

seq level0 \*arabic2807             So what is your understanding of what is required by us in the line of local programming and what would meet the community needs?

seq level0 \*arabic2808             Let's start with what you believe we require.

seq level0 \*arabic2809             MR. DOERR:  Well, I believe that ‑‑ first of all, let me address the letter, if I may, because I have reviewed it.

seq level0 \*arabic2810             What Gary said was this ‑‑ first of all, I monitored The Hawk and here's what's happened. They changed their legal ID so it now says they are in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2811             They also added a community‑based public service program that runs several times a day, "What's Happening in Woodstock," they did that.  And they framed their weather forecasts with Woodstock weather.

seq level0 \*arabic2812             And, as Gary stated in his letter, that certainly was the case.

seq level0 \*arabic2813             However, as he also stated in his letter, in monitoring the station, and as you heard this morning at best there is probably one news story for Woodstock on The Hawk per cast per day and that's a stretch some days.

seq level0 \*arabic2814             In our opinion, Standard's opinion, that is not local service and that's one of the reasons we noted a huge void in our research that said people are looking for this type of service.

seq level0 \*arabic2815             So part of our component today, as you heard, is a large news component with a large news staff, four hours a week.  That's one part of the community service.

seq level0 \*arabic2816             Second part of the community is ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2817             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, I'm talking local programming and what our requirements are. Community service is very interesting, but the question was what is your belief what local programming, what our requirements are.

seq level0 \*arabic2818             MR. SLAIGHT:  Commissioner Cram, let me just refer to the letter briefly so I can explain.

seq level0 \*arabic2819             I think the key word there was "substantial".

seq level0 \*arabic2820             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

seq level0 \*arabic2821             MR. SLAIGHT:  And I think what we were indicating was they were doing the bare minimum and I think when you hear from the mayor, which we just heard, that they're barely doing the bare minimum.

seq level0 \*arabic2822             So I think we were maybe being kind in this letter, given the two‑year period that they were monitored.  We did see some effort to reflect in very small ways the responsibility in the local marketplace.  Is it enough and is it doing what we think should be done in the marketplace?  Absolutely not.  And I think that's one of the reasons why they're not doing better in the marketplace.

seq level0 \*arabic2823             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Can we get back to my question.

seq level0 \*arabic2824             What is your perception of the local programming requirements of the Commission? What does it comprise?

seq level0 \*arabic2825             MR. SLAIGHT:  It comprises ‑‑ sorry.

seq level0 \*arabic2826             MR. DOERR:  Go ahead, Gary.

seq level0 \*arabic2827             MR. SLAIGHT:  You take it.

seq level0 \*arabic2828             MR. DOERR:  It comprises service to the community you're licensed to serve on an ongoing and consistent basis.

seq level0 \*arabic2829             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And if I take us back to our letter of March 11, '04, which was the previous letter to that one, would you agree it means there should be a mention, an exclusive mention, of the community of service?  In other words, there should be no mention that you're serving another community such as Hamilton; secondly, there should be a focus of news, weather, sports and activities on that community?

seq level0 \*arabic2830             MR. DOERR:  I would agree.

seq level0 \*arabic2831             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have to say yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2832             MR. DOERR:  I would agree.

seq level0 \*arabic2833             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thirdly, that there is a reference to the studio being in situ; in other words, in the community.

seq level0 \*arabic2834             And you have to say yes again.

seq level0 \*arabic2835             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2836             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when we say focus, what do we mean?  Do we mean five per cent, ten percent on that community or what is your belief what we mean by that?

seq level0 \*arabic2837             MR. DOERR:  Well, my believe is that if you're licensed to serve a community you should look after and ‑‑ look after that community, period.

seq level0 \*arabic2838             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So is one newscast good a week, although initially you said it could have been, Mr. Slaight, what do you think would now be appropriate?

seq level0 \*arabic2839             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think you have to ‑‑ people have to work in the community that you're licensed to serve.  I think you have to ‑‑ that most of the information on the radio station has to reflect the local community.  I think you're salespeople should live in the community that you're listened to serve.

seq level0 \*arabic2840             And we do small market radio across the country and if you don't reflect the community that you're licensed to serve and you're operating in that community you will not succeed.

seq level0 \*arabic2841             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, you know, financial success is one thing, but the ‑‑ and I agree that that's the public perception issue, but I'm talking about our minimum requirements.

seq level0 \*arabic2842             MR. SLAIGHT:  I also mean succeed in terms of your obligations based on whatever application you had put forward.

seq level0 \*arabic2843             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I notice that you say in I think it's your letter of March 5 and it's not paginated, so I'll have to ...

seq level0 \*arabic2844             At page 5, you talk about the majority, primary focus will be on the City of Woodstock and the majority of writing and reporting will be dedicated to topics of local and regional concern.

seq level0 \*arabic2845             Would you agree that that would suffice for the requirement that the focus would be on news, weather, sports and activities of the community?

seq level0 \*arabic2846             MR. DOERR:  I would.

seq level0 \*arabic2847             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And the community of service is the other issue, isn't it, because to be local you have to serve the community of service.

seq level0 \*arabic2848             For the purposes of this application, what does that mean to you?

seq level0 \*arabic2849             MR. DOERR:  In this application it means Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2850             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I would be willing to go as far as Oxford County and Ingersoll Country.

seq level0 \*arabic2851             MR. DOERR:  On the periphery, yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2852             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2853             MR. DOERR:  But the call was for Woodstock, so we framed it that way.

seq level0 \*arabic2854             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So at the end of the day your perception of our requirements would be that local ‑‑ there would be a majority of local news, weather, sports activities being from the community of Woodstock, Oxford County and Ingersoll County and that the reference ‑‑ the studio would always be in situ and the reference would always be to be to either the County of Oxford, the County of Ingersoll or Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2855             MR. DOERR:  Yes, the local content is 70 per cent local, which we'll talk about.  Yes, the studios and the operation will be in Woodstock. The staff will work out of Woodstock 168 hours a week and the coverage area is primarily Woodstock and Ingersoll on the first level and Oxford County certainly on the second.

seq level0 \*arabic2856             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you know that we're concerned about this issue of local programming.

seq level0 \*arabic2857             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2858             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you say in your application that your goal is for 70 per cent.

seq level0 \*arabic2859             MR. DOERR:  Of local news.

seq level0 \*arabic2860             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And "news" meaning?

seq level0 \*arabic2861             MR. DOERR:  "News" meaning news, sports, traffic and weather.

seq level0 \*arabic2862             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And so would you consider agreeing to a COL of 50 per cent local programming?

seq level0 \*arabic2863             MR. DOERR:  We're talking about the content of newscasts and we're ‑‑ I'm saying to you 70 will be from the area that you and I discussed and you're asking if I would reduce it?  No, I wouldn't.

seq level0 \*arabic2864             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No, a COL, though, agree to a condition of licence.

seq level0 \*arabic2865             MR. DOERR:  Or 50 or 70?

seq level0 \*arabic2866             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  50.  That's what I asked.  I only asked for 50.  I could say 70, but I only ask for 50.

seq level0 \*arabic2867             MR. DOERR:  Yes, we would.

seq level0 \*arabic2868             MR. SLAIGHT:  Talking an average over a week?

seq level0 \*arabic2869             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2870             MR. SLAIGHT:  Because there may be days, as the previous group talked about, where there's a huge event of a global nature, which would preclude it on a daily basis, but I think on a weekly basis we would be fine.

seq level0 \*arabic2871             MR. DOERR:  Where Saddam Hussein just couldn't fit into local.

seq level0 \*arabic2872             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, absolutely.

seq level0 \*arabic2873             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We understand that.

seq level0 \*arabic2874             MR. DOERR:  Commissioner Cram, I think 50 ‑‑ in this situation for a radio station like this in a market size such as this that is underserved, as we told you, personally I think 50 is low.

seq level0 \*arabic2875             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So I undersold the whole thing.

seq level0 \*arabic2876             MR. DOERR:  No, but to Gary's point, if you don't look after the community first and foremost in that manner then you're not going to success.

seq level0 \*arabic2877             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So you did say, and you've talked again today, that there was a void in local programming.  What are the voids?

seq level0 \*arabic2878             MR. DOERR:  As it exists today?

seq level0 \*arabic2879             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2880             MR. DOERR:  Well, I think as we heard from Mr. Byrnes this morning, and it's certainly true that from a news coverage point of view there's not virtually any activity in the Woodstock market to start with so the existing licensee is not covering the market.  That became a very evident.

seq level0 \*arabic2881             I know in their intervention they talked about their inability to generate revenue out of the market, perhaps not surprising given that Standard believes and we believe that the advertising flows back if you look after the community and that means news, public service, the whole gamut of making sure you're there for the community.

seq level0 \*arabic2882             So I'm not ‑‑ I'm not totally surprised at the results of what's going on.

seq level0 \*arabic2883             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Now, your contour coverage covers London.

seq level0 \*arabic2884             MR. DOERR:  It does.

seq level0 \*arabic2885             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And we paranoics on the Commission can't help but think that you'll end up in the same place as CKDK‑FM, especially as you're planning on, it appears, getting about 15 per cent of your revenues from London.

seq level0 \*arabic2886             Is this station viable if you don't get any revenue from London?

seq level0 \*arabic2887             MR. DOERR:  It is.  But to clarify, we have four licences, as I'm sure you're very aware, in London.

seq level0 \*arabic2888             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We'll be getting to that.

seq level0 \*arabic2889             MR. DOERR:  Okay.  Fine.

seq level0 \*arabic2890             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Don't worry.

seq level0 \*arabic2891             How can we ensure that you would stay loyal or pure to Woodstock?

seq level0 \*arabic2892             MR. DOERR:  Because even as we mentioned, that we would take no more than $100,000 or 15 per cent of our total revenue out of London, as we stated in our application.

seq level0 \*arabic2893             The bulk of our $850,000, as we had anticipated in year one, comes out of Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County.  The business won't succeed if we don't concentrate on the matter at hand and that's local service.

seq level0 \*arabic2894             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You've also talked about an advisory committee?

seq level0 \*arabic2895             MR. DOERR:  Correct.

seq level0 \*arabic2896             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And what would that do?

seq level0 \*arabic2897             MR. DOERR:  Well, it's something that Standard has done across the country.  It taps us into the community so we can get useful feedback to how we're doing and as a new entity in Woodstock it would become doubly important that we would have an advisory committee.

seq level0 \*arabic2898             Generally they are set up with no more than 12 members, no less than 8.  We draw from four key areas.  Generally one from the four designated groups, which we would do in the case of Woodstock.  We also go in ask for a post‑secondary person who is teaching in the community.  We would look for a P1 listener who has ‑‑ someone hopefully of Ryan's demo, who embraces the radio station upon our launch and that person would serve on the committee and that would be examples of the type of person that we would ‑‑ we would meet three to four times a year and minutes are kept and we would certainly act on their recommendations.

seq level0 \*arabic2899             We do that sort of thing in London right now.

seq level0 \*arabic2900             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  That's the last point I wanted to know.  How are we sure it's not that they meet and they discuss things and they think it's wonderful, but nothing happens at the end, there's no sort of implementation of what they would suggest.

seq level0 \*arabic2901             MR. DOERR:  Well, the implementation, I guess, is up to us and I found in these advisory boards that after two meetings if you don't show some due consideration to their thoughts and act accordingly within things that you can do, then they don't work and they disband.  And ours live on and that's because we listen to these people.

seq level0 \*arabic2902             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  The programming, would it be a hundred per cent local?

seq level0 \*arabic2903             MR. DOERR:  It would, from studios in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2904             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how much live?

seq level0 \*arabic2905             MR. DOERR:  We are voice tracked ‑‑ let me talk about live first.  We are live weekdays 6 a.m. to 8 a.m. in the strip Monday to Friday. Saturday and Sunday are mirrored.  We'll be live from 10:00 in the morning ‑‑ 8:00 in the morning through until 2:00 in the afternoon and the total voice track total for the week is 86 hours based on 168 hour full week.

seq level0 \*arabic2906             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And the number of hours of spoken word?

seq level0 \*arabic2907             MR. DOERR:  There's two components. I'll let Kim maybe expand on the news component. It's 4 hours and 4 minutes across 61 casts a week.

seq level0 \*arabic2908             There is another three hours to bring the total for the station to 7 hours.  The three hours are Karen's responsibility and they're tied up in spoken word music program, which maybe she'll speak to, but, Kim, maybe you can talk just a little bit about or news plans.

seq level0 \*arabic2909             MS WOODBRIDGE:  Sure, I will, and I'll get specifically into the numbers in just a moment, but I think it's very important to tell you off the top that The Zone's focus will be mainly local.  We are planning to provide 70 per cent local stories from our news centre.

seq level0 \*arabic2910             As we have heard time and time again, just this morning from the previous applicant and the mayor himself, as well as through our research and the people we've spoken to in the community, there is a significant void in local news and information programming and that, of course, is our goal, to fill in a void.

seq level0 \*arabic2911             We will be covering stories such as the current rubella outbreak in the Norwich County that's affecting hundreds of residents in the area; updating landing the new Toyota assembly plant, which could bring thousands of jobs to the region.

seq level0 \*arabic2912             To do this we'll need to create quite a large news team.  It will be made up of myself as news director and morning anchor.  We will also have a full‑time reporter, who will be our afternoon news anchor.  We'll have another full time reporter who will be our weekend newscaster and we'll have a part‑time reporter as well.

seq level0 \*arabic2913             I think it's also important to say that our news team will be dedicated to providing a high level of news service to the community.  That's what Standard expects and our company has won numerous news awards over the years, more recently for the 24/7 coverage of the Okanagan wildfires in the B.C. interior.

seq level0 \*arabic2914             So this is something that we want to do and we feel we will be able to do through our plans.

seq level0 \*arabic2915             As far as the amount of news that we're planning, just over four hours each week, 4 hours and 4 minutes.  61 newscasts, as Braden had mentioned.  We're going to have newscasts nine a day, Monday to Friday from six in the morning until six in the afternoon.  We will do top and bottom hours during the morning drive and then we'll do four, five and six in the afternoon.

seq level0 \*arabic2916             On the weekends ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2917             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm sorry, just stop you there.  How long are those ones.

seq level0 \*arabic2918             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  They're four minutes in total.

seq level0 \*arabic2919             On the weekends ‑‑ as we heard this morning our first competitor is planning to do only three newscasts on the weekends each day.  We feel that news coverage is just as important on the weekends as it is during the weekdays, so we're planning for eight newscasts that will start at seven in the morning until noon.

seq level0 \*arabic2920             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And they will be how long?

seq level0 \*arabic2921             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  Four minutes as well.

seq level0 \*arabic2922             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when you say "news" you mean news, sports.

seq level0 \*arabic2923             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  News, sports, weather and traffic, of course.

seq level0 \*arabic2924             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And thank you for your coloured thing to show it exactly.  That's fantastic.

seq level0 \*arabic2925             I wanted to talk about the type of news.  Your demo is 18 to 39 males.  What type of news?  Will it be the upbeat ten‑second blips ‑‑ Saddam is dead ‑‑ or arrested ‑‑ you know, it's sunny today?

seq level0 \*arabic2926             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  Right.

seq level0 \*arabic2927             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because there is a much larger demographic, you know, in the areas.

seq level0 \*arabic2928             MS. WOODBRIDGE:  We obviously will tailor our newscasts to our demographic or we will try to do that in the best of abilities.  We'll also of course be trying to encompass a larger audience as well with our news coverage.

seq level0 \*arabic2929             We plan to do that ‑‑ I do that on a daily basis right now working in London for BX 93. We have four radio stations, so we have to tailor each newscast to the specific demographics.

seq level0 \*arabic2930             I think it's important to say that just because it is a younger demographic, they do want this news, as our research has shown, and there are specific things that I think specifically would target the area, such as health stories like the rubella outbreak that I mentioned; automotive and technology stories, again the Toyota plant.

seq level0 \*arabic2931             Traffic is extremely important as we've heard again numerous times today.  It's an interesting stretch along 401 and 403 corridors in the Woodstock area and there are a number of people in the community who commute to work, so traffic will be a very important area of our news coverage.

seq level0 \*arabic2932             And because of the focus of our programming with modern rock, entertainment will also make up a portion of our newscasts, because I think that's of interest to the younger demographic as well.

seq level0 \*arabic2933             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  And then the non‑news spoken word.

seq level0 \*arabic2934             MR. DOERR:  Karen?

seq level0 \*arabic2935             MS STEELE:  Modern rock, the format itself, the listeners are ravenous for new music information, touring information, bios, independent artist information and interviews.

seq level0 \*arabic2936             Our listeners are thirsty for knowledge and The Zone will inform that audience. Three hours of spoken word will be made up of independent artists featuring local artists on The Underground Zone program, which will run Monday to Friday 11 to 12 p.m.

seq level0 \*arabic2937             Zone Alone, which features a listener‑chosen new independent music in the studio.  At The Zone they will choose their own music and independent music that they want to hear.  That's Saturdays from 7 to 8 p.m.

seq level0 \*arabic2938             Budd Radio, which is an independent specialty program Saturdays from 11 to midnight and then there's The Zone Social Scene, which lists what's coming to the area, live events, charity nonprofit events that matter to our community.

seq level0 \*arabic2939             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You won't be out in the community talking about the Santa Claus Run or the ... I can't even remember the ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2940             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Alzheimer.

seq level0 \*arabic2941             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  When you lose your memory.  The Alzheimer's.

seq level0 \*arabic2942             MS STEELE:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2943             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You won't be Extra ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2944             MS STEELE:  Yes, we will.  The events that matter to our community we will have our personalities out on location and making cut‑ins to the radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic2945             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

seq level0 \*arabic2946             MS STEELE:  To say that we're on location.

seq level0 \*arabic2947             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But you're not counting that as a commitment, is that the same as the previous applicant, because they weren't counting it either?

seq level0 \*arabic2948             MS STEELE:  No.

seq level0 \*arabic2949             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No.  And you raised an issue that I was wondering.  Is all the programming going to be locally produced or is there going to be some syndicated programming or some from your other stations?

seq level0 \*arabic2950             MS STEELE:  All of the programming will be locally produced with the exception of the one hour of Budd Radio ‑‑ in our Toronto studies.

seq level0 \*arabic2951             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Moving on to numbers, my favourite.  Here's my calculations. I took your total expenses minus your CTD to arrive at your net expenses.  I then took your programming costs as a percentage of your net expenses and came up with 24.5 per cent.  The provincial average is 31 per cent.  And you're the winner for the lowest of all the applicants.  Is this enough to maintain your commitments?

seq level0 \*arabic2952             MR. DOERR:  It is and I think there's a couple of factors here that maybe I can speak to.

seq level0 \*arabic2953             One is there's ‑‑ we have an org chart here we would be glad to review with you.

seq level0 \*arabic2954             But in a radio station like this, to get it up and running we certainly have a lot of shared responsibilities and I have them here, so, in other words, some of the people in the program ‑‑ programming part of the budget are split off to others, which I would be glad to talk about.  That's one thing.

seq level0 \*arabic2955             Secondly we're experienced broadcasters and in a market of size to hit hopefully profitability year 4, which you can see is the goal, quite frankly, we are a very aggressive with our expenses and manage them accordingly, so we don't overspend.  We certainly honour our commitments but we don't waste money working for Gary Slaight.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2956             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic2957             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How did you punctuate that one?

seq level0 \*arabic2958             MR. SLAIGHT:  I'm sorry.

seq level0 \*arabic2959             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How did you punctuate that?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic2960             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What about synergies with the London station?

seq level0 \*arabic2961             MR. DOERR:  I don't see too many. To get us going we would use the admin staff to set the systems up.  That would be things like traffic, we would bring them in and take them back.

seq level0 \*arabic2962             On a go‑forward basis only two areas.  One would be engineering.  We're the .5 and that station can't afford a full‑time engineer.  And the other area that would we would look at would be general admin and that would be a .5.

seq level0 \*arabic2963             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You're talking person years.

seq level0 \*arabic2964             MR. DOERR:  Yes, sorry.

seq level0 \*arabic2965             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  We'll get to now your other four stations.

seq level0 \*arabic2966             Because this station would also have coverage under the .5 megavolt contour, why would we not consider this to be a violation of our common ownership policy in the London market if you were licensed?

seq level0 \*arabic2967             MR. DOERR:  That it would be a fifty station in London?

seq level0 \*arabic2968             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic2969             MR. DOERR:  Well, Stuart, maybe you can talk about the parameters and the protection aspect of Sarnia and offer some clarification on that.

seq level0 \*arabic2970             MR. SLAIGHT:  Before ‑‑ can I just ‑‑ generally speaking here, I mean, if you look throughout Southern Ontario, for instance we have two FM stations in Toronto, we also have a FM station in Hamilton, which booms into Toronto, but it's a local station.  Our station in St. Catharines comes into Toronto.  Everybody's signals go into outside markets.

seq level0 \*arabic2971             The key is your commitment to maintain the locality of your radio station and in Woodstock that's what we would do.

seq level0 \*arabic2972             We also don't want to see any competition ‑‑ any more competition in London right now because, that market is fairly full and it's very competitive, so our focus from our perspective would be on the Woodstock market.

seq level0 \*arabic2973             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I guess my question then comes down to the format that you've chosen, modern rock.  Is there a modern rock London broadcaster?

seq level0 \*arabic2974             MR. DOERR:  No, there isn't.  This is a pure modern rock radio station that we're bringing before you today.  Karen is the expert on this.  The one closest station would probably be FM 96, which is based in London.  It's owned by Corus.

seq level0 \*arabic2975             But there's a marked difference between the programming that we're bringing forward today for Woodstock and their programming in London.

seq level0 \*arabic2976             Perhaps, Karen, you can expand on that for me.

seq level0 \*arabic2977             MS STEELE:  Well, modern rock is a progressive format that is innovative, it has an independent spirit.  It's driving by passionate, creative and up‑and‑coming bands.

seq level0 \*arabic2978             The Zone will set itself apart from other radio stations in Woodstock by plying new and independent music that listeners want to hear that they're not hearing in the Woodstock area.

seq level0 \*arabic2979             Any artists have been relying on their loyal fan base for word of mouth and the Internet to build their audience because they're not being heard on the radio.  For most artists, though, this is not enough.  They need air time on radio to take their careers to the next level.

seq level0 \*arabic2980             The Zone will give Canadian artists and the Canadian record companies a new voice  by providing an outset for music to help develop Canadian artists while appealing to the 18 to 34 demographic, who really want to hear this music.

seq level0 \*arabic2981             We'll play international artists but this is the music diversity will bring the Woodstock:  Coldplay, Weezer, Modest Mouse, Killers, Dreamday.  Canadian artists Sum 41, The Truth, Simple Plan, Three Days Grace.

seq level0 \*arabic2982             But what will set us apart from the other radio stations is we'll specialist in new music from independent and emerging Canadian artists such as The Arcade Fire, The Stars, Dears, Metric, Broken Social Scene, Death From Above 1979 and local bands such as The Weekend.

seq level0 \*arabic2983             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Have you made any analysis of what share, if any, you would take from which London broadcasters?

seq level0 \*arabic2984             MR. DOERR:  I can give you sort of the total picture, the way we see the shares rolling out on the radio station after launch, because we did put a lot of work into that.

seq level0 \*arabic2985             Basically first thing that you have to note, which was mentioned earlier this morning, is that 85 per cent of the tuning in this market is going out of the market to out‑of‑market stations and about 15 per cent staying in for The Hawk.

seq level0 \*arabic2986             The second thing we note is the population is quite young.  A third under 24, 62 per cent under 44, that's 2001 census.  We open with a 13 shares.  That is our expectation, 12 plus.  Of that we see the split as 65 per cent being repatriated from out‑of‑market tuning.  That tuning now is going to FM 96, it's going to COOL FM in Kitchener, it's going to BOB FM in London and DAVE FM  in Cambridge.

seq level0 \*arabic2987             35 per cent of our audience will come from inside the Woodstock cell currently.  Of that 15 per cent will come from The Hawk and 20 per cent of that will be made up of new listeners who have just given up and stopped listening to the radio or can't find the format.

seq level0 \*arabic2988             Mr. Yerxa's research says 7 out of 10 people that were asked in our sample 1854 said can't find format.  That's why this is a unique opportunity to fill a hole.

seq level0 \*arabic2989             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  It's 20 to 39 male oriented.  CKDK is also male oriented.

seq level0 \*arabic2990             MR. YERXA:  Commission Cram, if I could just offer a point of clarification, it is not male oriented.  The split is 51 per cent male, 49 per cent female.

seq level0 \*arabic2991             You're right, though, classic rock is well over 60 per cent male, 65 per cent in our research.

seq level0 \*arabic2992             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you chose this ‑‑ it's the narrowest demographic of all the applicants.  Why would you choose that strategy? Because of the amount of young people in Woodstock?

seq level0 \*arabic2993             MR. DOERR:  Because of the ‑‑ I'll let maybe John add to this, but I think it's the amount of young people in Woodstock.  It's also a format that the research said was the most in demand and the least able to find.

seq level0 \*arabic2994             John, do you want to add to that? No?

seq level0 \*arabic2995             MR. YERXA:  Yes.  Well, simply put, when you look at the Woodstock market, the existing station there, the incumbent primarily serves those listeners 30, 35 plus years of age gold‑based format and the clear hole exists in the 18 to 34 market for new music.

seq level0 \*arabic2996             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And advertisers love the young kids.

seq level0 \*arabic2997             Will you be repatriating from any of your own London signals?  I know you have an AC and country that show up in Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic2998             MR. DOERR:  It would be minimal. We are a 35‑plus entity in London.  We do soft AC, we do country, we do adult standards, which is Frank Sinatra, of course, on one of our AMs and the other, of course AM is News Talk, so there's not a lot of cross.

seq level0 \*arabic2999             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you talk about repatriation here, 65 per cent coming from classic rock, classic hit and CHR.

seq level0 \*arabic3000             MR. DOERR:  The majority of 65 per cent would come from FM 96.

seq level0 \*arabic3001             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I will come from ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3002             MR. DOERR:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3003             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  FM 96, what is its share in London; do you know?

seq level0 \*arabic3004             MR. DOERR:  It's about a nine. That's top of the line.

seq level0 \*arabic3005             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And would you expect to take share from it in the London market?

seq level0 \*arabic3006             MR. DOERR:  Unlikely.  They're fairly solid there.

seq level0 \*arabic3007             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Any overlap in your play list with CKDK?

seq level0 \*arabic3008             MR. DOERR:  Very little.  There's a big split at age 35 between classic rock and modern rock and it splits apart dramatically.

seq level0 \*arabic3009             They're play ‑‑ their whole library is gold based and it started at 35/44 if not north of that an male based, so there's very, very little sharing.

seq level0 \*arabic3010             Karen, is that fair?

seq level0 \*arabic3011             MS STEELE:  Yes.  They'll play AC/DC, The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Ozzie Osborne, The Tragically Hip, none of which we would play on The Zone.

seq level0 \*arabic3012             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And yet you say you expect to get about 15 per cent viewing from ‑‑ 15 per cent of your revenue from existing radio, which I assume is CKDC.

seq level0 \*arabic3013             MR. DOERR:  Correct.

seq level0 \*arabic3014             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Who is that? The disenfranchised female above 34?

seq level0 \*arabic3015             MR. DOERR:  Well, it's the ‑‑ it's the people that are listening to The Hawk by default because there's no modern rock station to start with.

seq level0 \*arabic3016             Secondly, some of that 15 per cent is going to come across simply because we offer local news and information orientation, because they're not getting it with The Hawk.

seq level0 \*arabic3017             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Going on to your revenue projections, your projections are lower than three others.  Why is that?

seq level0 \*arabic3018             MR. DOERR:  I'll let Dan talk to that because we used a four point formula to do the workup for year 1 and then he did the work to take it across the seven years.

seq level0 \*arabic3019             We feel they're attainable.  Probably ‑‑ they're very conservative, to be honest with you, because we're going to hit these numbers if licensed because that's good business for all concerned.

seq level0 \*arabic3020             Dan, maybe you can just give us the jumping‑off point for Commissioner Cram.

seq level0 \*arabic3021             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Sure.  Thanks, Braden.

seq level0 \*arabic3022             Commissioner, first we did an extensive research with the FP markets, the CRTC financial summaries and the TRAM to establish what we felt was a conservative spend in the Woodstock market.

seq level0 \*arabic3023             Second, we gauged the national advertisers in feedback to find out what categories would be strong with 18 to 34 and where the opportunity stood with them.

seq level0 \*arabic3024             Third, with my experience in local advertising in the London/St. Thomas/Woodstock area, we went to Woodstock and we listened to the Woodstock advertisers who currently advertise with us, got their feedback and saw where the opportunity was. They wanted a truly local committed radio station.

seq level0 \*arabic3025             They also told us they want a station that will reach a market that they felt was underserved and that was the 18 to 34 year olds.

seq level0 \*arabic3026             And, finally, Standard Radio has a proven track record with small market radio stations.  All I had to do was talk to our friends in Pembroke, Kelowna, the B.C. interior and pull out the success that they have had in those markets and apply them to this one.

seq level0 \*arabic3027             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So did you apply a deduction of some sort because you're new and that sort of thing?

seq level0 \*arabic3028             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes.  I feel the research we've done makes our budget very attainable, realistic.  We're committed to the listeners, we're committed to the advertisers, because we're in the market, and we're committed to the City of Woodstock.

seq level0 \*arabic3029             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And did you decide, Mr. MacGillivray, that you're going to get 15 per cent of the revenue from existing local stations, which is primarily CKDK.

seq level0 \*arabic3030             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes, I did, Commissioner.

seq level0 \*arabic3031             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Pardon me?

seq level0 \*arabic3032             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Yes, I did.

seq level0 \*arabic3033             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how did you figure it out?

seq level0 \*arabic3034             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  That was based on feedback we did get from local advertisers who currently advertise on BX 93.

seq level0 \*arabic3035             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And your rates, Mr. Doerr, or anybody, will they be higher, lower or the same as CKDK?

seq level0 \*arabic3036             MR. DOERR:  Be lower to start.  Dan, maybe you can just talk about rate and inventory.

seq level0 \*arabic3037             MR. MacGILLIVRAY:  Sure. Currently, CKDK The Hawk range anywhere from 15 to $40.  We will be starting our rates at between 16 and $20 and growing from there.

seq level0 \*arabic3038             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  Now, do you think the Woodstock market would be able to have more than one new player at this time in addition to yourselves, should you be licensed?

seq level0 \*arabic3039             MR. DOERR:  You read my mind.  I think that would probably be a stretch from what I saw.  I would think that probably ‑‑ and given the availability of frequencies, as our competitor who were on before us discussed, I would think that probably this would be the last and probably all the market could bear.  At this point.  However, the growth in this market and how it's doing economically, as you've heard, is incredible.  It's really a city whose time has come.

seq level0 \*arabic3040             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  The last question is how come you should be chosen above everybody else and that one comes after I ask this one.

seq level0 \*arabic3041             Why is yours the business best of the frequency?

seq level0 \*arabic3042             MR. DOERR:  It's the best use of the frequency for a number of reasons.

seq level0 \*arabic3043             First of all, we're bringing in a format that's not available.  Secondly, there's huge demand for the format.  Seven out of ten, the people say they can't find the format.

seq level0 \*arabic3044             Thirdly, we bring Canadian talent development promises for the seven years of $500,000, which is a substantial amount of money considering the financials we bring forward for the radio station over the seven years.

seq level0 \*arabic3045             40 per cent Canadian content.

seq level0 \*arabic3046             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I hate to interrupt you, but that's what you can say after my colleagues have grilled you to death.

seq level0 \*arabic3047             But the question is why are you the best use of the frequency and it's the frequency question.

seq level0 \*arabic3048             MR. DOERR:  Because we're bringing a format to the market that is unavailable at this time.

seq level0 \*arabic3049             MS STEELE:  And also because your contours are the largest and the best coverage.

seq level0 \*arabic3050             Mr. Chair, thank you.  Thank you gentlemen and ladies.

seq level0 \*arabic3051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cugini.

seq level0 \*arabic3052             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I just have a very quick question and it's just to understand better the difference between your adult contemporary station that's currently available in the market and your new format.

seq level0 \*arabic3053             You listed, obviously, a very extensive list of Canadian artists and that's what I'm most interested in, in the promotion and airplay of Canadian artists.

seq level0 \*arabic3054             So Nickelback and The Tea Party is still one of my favourite bands.  Maybe I'm a disenfranchised female over 34, but there you have it.  They are currently not played on your adult contemporary station out of London?

seq level0 \*arabic3055             MR. DOERR:  No.

seq level0 \*arabic3056             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And so they would be exclusive to this new modern rock station.

seq level0 \*arabic3057             MR. DOERR:  Our London station is an easy rock station.

seq level0 \*arabic3058             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is that what you identified as a soft AC?

seq level0 \*arabic3059             MR. DOERR:  Oh, yes, just to be clear 35, 44 heavily female and these are two completely different radio stations.

seq level0 \*arabic3060             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3061             MR. DOERR:  You're welcome.

seq level0 \*arabic3062             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Langford.

seq level0 \*arabic3063             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

seq level0 \*arabic3064             I have two areas of questions I would like to try on you.  The first, I think, would be to Ms Steele, but of course you can decide that on your own.

seq level0 \*arabic3065             In your opening remarks, Ms Steele, on page 6 you talked very eloquently about having the opportunity to "break Canadian acts" and went on to talk about the people who were already well‑known. The Nickelbacks and the Our Lady Peaces and then about your brother.

seq level0 \*arabic3066             And I'm just wondering what kind of commitment, if you can harden up the commitment to your brother a little more.

seq level0 \*arabic3067             And the reason is we have been hearing a lot lately from sort of independent nonsigned acts how difficult it is to get a piece of the 35 or the 40 per cent Canadian content because commercial radio stations are simply just spinning the big names over and over and over again, which is fine, which is legal, but for them just, you know, has the effect of building a concrete wall between them and their dreams.

seq level0 \*arabic3068             So I listened to you this morning and I'm reading your remarks over, but it isn't quite clear to me what you're going to do for these newcomers.

seq level0 \*arabic3069             MR. DOERR:  I'm going to get to Karen in a second.  Gary would like to talk to that point.

seq level0 \*arabic3070             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think the notion, Commissioner Langford, that Canadian radio doesn't support and break new Canadian artists is coming from a segment of the industry that maybe is not putting out the product that's quite ready for radio airplay.

seq level0 \*arabic3071             We play a massive amount of new Canadian artists on a regular basis right across the country and many of the artists we play, you know, it's their first record.  We need to do that to continue to have good product to play on the radio.

seq level0 \*arabic3072             With this particular radio station Karen can talk about what our commitment will be in terms of giving the new talent exposure, but I think generally speaking a lot of new Canadian artists get played on the radio on a regular basis.

seq level0 \*arabic3073             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I must tell you that that was not what we heard, for example, at the satellite radio/subscription radio, if you want to call it, because it was another format, back in the first week of December ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3074             MR. SLAIGHT:  Right.  A lot ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3075             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ of last year.  We had a long, long list of very unhappy people come before us.

seq level0 \*arabic3076             MR. SLAIGHT:  A lot of those artists that are in that community have got the product at this point in time, but they don't have the distribution and for the system to work for a radio station it's important that if we play a record it's in the stores, because the listener expects that they're going to be able to go in and buy it.

seq level0 \*arabic3077             So the system in terms of some these new artists doesn't get them into the record stores because the major record companies aren't signing new Canadian artists and they kind of control the pipeline into the retail outlets.

seq level0 \*arabic3078             So it's not ‑‑ radio, I think, for the most part does its job.  Part of problem is the other end of the music industry, which is the major record companies and the retail environment, doesn't allow space for some of these new artists.

seq level0 \*arabic3079             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's pretty cold comfort to them, though.

seq level0 \*arabic3080             I'm hearing what you're saying, but it doesn't seem to jibe with what Ms Steele I thought she said.

seq level0 \*arabic3081             You're basically saying if you're not on a list somewhere, if you're not in a store somewhere you're not going to get played.  Is that what you're saying?

seq level0 \*arabic3082             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, I'm saying as a rule for ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3083             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As a rule.  So what are you going to do for her brother?  He's not on the list and he's not in the store.

seq level0 \*arabic3084             MR. SLAIGHT:  No, I believe her brother get a fair amount of airplay on the radio at this point in time and was actually broken out of one of our radio stations.

seq level0 \*arabic3085             Karen, do you want to talk kind of about what the plans are for The Zone in this regard?

seq level0 \*arabic3086             MS STEELE:  I mean, just to gauge, Universal Music Canada sent me a list that's three pages long of artists that are looking for a home on a modern rock radio station.  They have the talent. They need a station that's going to play that type of new music, which is what we're proposing today.

seq level0 \*arabic3087             We have some Canadian talent development programs.  The Live Concert Series, which will occur twice a year for the first two years and three times a year thereafter.

seq level0 \*arabic3088             We will provide our local residents with stage time at a local Woodstock event venue to perform and we will carry that broadcast live on The Zone, so give them exposure on our radio station and in the clubs as well as we will record the performance and give them a 100 CD copies of their performance that they can distribute to the record companies.

seq level0 \*arabic3089             Another initiative that we have is The Zone Home Grown contest, which is an independent band contest, where listeners in our community, bands in our community, can submit their work.

seq level0 \*arabic3090             We will have a solicitation period. We will listen to all of the music that's receive at the radio station and then we will choose 15 of the top entrants received.  This will be decided upon by myself, the music director, and the on‑air staff.

seq level0 \*arabic3091             They will each be given 15 ‑‑ 15 bands will be given studio time to record their song, which will appear on a compilation CD, "The Zone Home Grown" compilation CD, which will be distributed throughout Ontario and proceeds from that CD will also be given back to the community to a charity yet to be determined.

seq level0 \*arabic3092             Five of those 15 artists will perform locally at a Woodstock event venue in front of members of the Canadian music industry, whom we will invite, and producers to hear their music and determine which is the best of the five, which will receive $10,000 and be our Zone Home Grown competition winner.

seq level0 \*arabic3093             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't mean to in any way diminish these initiatives. They're important to people and we understand that and you're putting up a lot of money and a lot of money in kind in a way and in no way do I mean to diminish it.

seq level0 \*arabic3094             But is the fact at the end of all of this that I misunderstood what you said at the beginning and that if you're not in the stores and if you're not being distributed you're not going to play them?  Is that the way it comes out?

seq level0 \*arabic3095             MR. SLAIGHT:  Let me just say ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3096             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Not in any way to diminish these initiatives but just from a day‑to‑day who gets on your radio station?

seq level0 \*arabic3097             MR. SLAIGHT:  As a rule at most mainstream radio stations, which this is not going to be, by the way, the system works that way.  But it still allows for a huge number of new Canadian artists to get played on radio across the country on a weekly basis.

seq level0 \*arabic3098             Frankly, some of the people that are talking to you about the lack of airplay support, some of the product isn't good enough to get played on the radio.

seq level0 \*arabic3099             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr. Slaight, I'm sorry, I guess I'm just not getting it.

seq level0 \*arabic3100             You say as a rule on a commercial station, but this isn't that kind of station.

seq level0 \*arabic3101             So if I could just narrow this down.  On this station ‑‑ I make no editorial comment ‑‑ I just want to understand what the policy will be.

seq level0 \*arabic3102             On this station if you're licensed in Woodstock if you're not on the list, if you're not in the stores, will you get played?

seq level0 \*arabic3103             MR. SLAIGHT:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3104             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And how big a percentage?  Can you give me some idea?

seq level0 \*arabic3105             MR. SLAIGHT:  I think that's hard to say because you don't know where ‑‑ on a regular basis how many product is going to be coming from what sector.

seq level0 \*arabic3106             We are going to play 75 per cent new Canadian music on a regular basis.  To achieve 75 per cent we're going to have to be out there being more aggressive looking for new talent and finding product to play on the radio, plus we have the various access vehicles for getting bands into the studio and interviews, et cetera.

seq level0 \*arabic3107             So what a percentage of ‑‑ and when you say percentage, Commissioner Langford, are you talking about how much new Canadian music will we be playing?

seq level0 \*arabic3108             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Independent, maybe unsigned artists.  They have an independent musicians association, there are about 4,000 members there.  They came before us in December, said they never get any play.  They get more play on satellite radio in The States than they're getting on commercial radio in Canada.

seq level0 \*arabic3109             They're unhappy campers.  They talked about how a commercial radio station, if it ‑‑ if it utilizes its spins properly, can play, you know, only ten or twelve well‑known performers and meet their 35 per cent Canadian content.

seq level0 \*arabic3110             And I wondered when I saw this on page 6, when I heard Ms Steele, I thought, oh, this is something new, somebody is responding to this problem.  If I misunderstood, well, then, I would just like to be informed if I did.

seq level0 \*arabic3111             But if you are reaching into this pool and you are going to give them some spins I would kind of like to get an idea of how much of your day they might ‑‑ I'm not going to suggest dropping a COL on you, but it would be nice to have some idea if I did understand Ms Steele right, what kind of a piece of your day they might be getting.

seq level0 \*arabic3112             MR. DOERR:  It would be my hope it would be in the 2 to 4 per cent range, I'm going to have to grab a number.

seq level0 \*arabic3113             We haven't been out into the county now.  We know they're there.  Haven't sat down and talked to them, we just haven't listened to them yet, but, as Karen mentioned, what makes us different, and I think she was clear, is that this type of station is one of the last great hopes for independent artists and that is what we're trying to do here and I think you did hear correctly.

seq level0 \*arabic3114             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.  That was my question.  We probably could have got to the answer a lot quicker.

seq level0 \*arabic3115             Another question I had, and again a little bit unprecedented maybe, but I'm looking at the contour map and your contour map and then I looked at the our contour maps as well and you've probably looked at them as well.

seq level0 \*arabic3116             What would happen if we were to suggest to you ‑‑ as I say, this is somewhat unprecedented, but we're just speaking theoretically here.

seq level0 \*arabic3117             If we were to suggest to you that you redraw this in some way, that you limit your power or that you limit your height and that your .5 contour does not take in London, could you revamp your business plan and make this work?

seq level0 \*arabic3118             MR. DOERR:  Well, my understanding ‑‑ I'm going to let Stuart talk to this, because I got 33 in physics, but my understanding is that this is a spectrum usage issue for protection on a Sarnia frequency that is not in use yet and that is why Elder created the technical brief as they did.

seq level0 \*arabic3119             Stuart maybe you can just talk to that.

seq level0 \*arabic3120             MR. HAHN:  Yes.  We took a different approach to the protection of a vacant allotment in Sarnia, which allowed us to produce more signal westerly, but if necessary we could, of course, reduce that coverage.

seq level0 \*arabic3121             We feel that since this is the last good frequency in the Woodstock area that it's important that it ‑‑ its potential be fully utilized and that is what we tried to do with this design.

seq level0 \*arabic3122             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I understand that that is the historic approach to the quote, unquote, "best use of a frequency" but assuming now that I take your opinion at face value, what would that then do to your business plan?

seq level0 \*arabic3123             I know you're planning to take a certain percentage of your income out of London. That would probably put the brakes on that.  Could you sell harder in Woodstock and still make a go of it?

seq level0 \*arabic3124             MR. DOERR:  We could and it's a cap, because it did come back in the deficiency process and what we said was no more than 15 per cent of our total revenue.  Of course that has a huge effect on the finances, given the scope and size of this radio station at 850.

seq level0 \*arabic3125             I think my answer would be, Commissioner, we would have to get back to you on a COL if we had to redraw the patten, as you said.

seq level0 \*arabic3126             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Maybe you could give that some thought.

seq level0 \*arabic3127             MR. DOERR:  We will.

seq level0 \*arabic3128             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

seq level0 \*arabic3129             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3130             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

seq level0 \*arabic3131             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. Commissioner Cram.

seq level0 \*arabic3132             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If it isn't numbers it's definitions.

seq level0 \*arabic3133             You said you would be playing 75 per cent new Canadian music.  Can you define "new" for me.

seq level0 \*arabic3134             MR. DOERR:  Karen, I'll let you touch on that.

seq level0 \*arabic3135             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  At least within one year?

seq level0 \*arabic3136             MS STEELE:  The new music would come between the last 12 to 16 months.

seq level0 \*arabic3137             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So released within ‑‑

seq level0 \*arabic3138             MS STEELE:  Released within that time and when we start playing.

seq level0 \*arabic3139             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  12 to 16 months.

seq level0 \*arabic3140             MS STEELE:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3141             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So with every play it would have been released within the 12 to 16 months prior.

seq level0 \*arabic3142             MS STEELE:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3143             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

seq level0 \*arabic3144             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3145             Mr. Slaight, how similar would this proposed station be to The Bear in Ottawa?

seq level0 \*arabic3146             MR. SLAIGHT:  Not very similar at all.  The Bear in Ottawa is fairly mainstream.  It plays some classic rock and some new rock.

seq level0 \*arabic3147             This station will be really focusing on new alternative rock.  This station will be more similar to CFNY in Toronto, I would suggest.

seq level0 \*arabic3148             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And on CFNY, for example, the list that Ms Steele has ‑‑ was it United Artists?

seq level0 \*arabic3149             MS STEELE:  Universal.

seq level0 \*arabic3150             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Universal.  That they gave you artists looking for a home, how many have already found a home on CFNY?

seq level0 \*arabic3151             MS STEELE:  I would say about 75 to 80 per cent of this list.

seq level0 \*arabic3152             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are on CFNY?

seq level0 \*arabic3153             MS STEELE:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3154             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would be on this station.

seq level0 \*arabic3155             MS STEELE:  Yes.

seq level0 \*arabic3156             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So why would you characterize them as looking for a home?  CFNY is a pretty good home.

seq level0 \*arabic3157             MS STEELE:  That's pretty much the only home they have right now.

seq level0 \*arabic3158             MR. SLAIGHT:  CFNY is in Toronto, so I'm using a comparison to a radio station in Toronto here.

seq level0 \*arabic3159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

seq level0 \*arabic3160             MR. SLAIGHT:  I don't believe CFNY gets much tuning in this area.

seq level0 \*arabic3161             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  So this would be an effort to give them a home farther away.  Okay.  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3162             The issue of demographics, the research supported a 20 to 39 demographic.  Your statement today talked about the 18 to 34 demographic.

seq level0 \*arabic3163             Is there any significance that we should draw from those slight differences in the end marks of those demographics or is it just that one is an advertiser traditional demographic and other the other is a research‑based one?

seq level0 \*arabic3164             MR. DOERR:  Exactly.  Our presentation today frames it in BBM terms at 18‑34. The research was split as you stated.

seq level0 \*arabic3165             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3166             MR. DOERR:  Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3167             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those are our Commissioner questions, we have questions from counsel.

seq level0 \*arabic3168             MR. MURDOCK:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

seq level0 \*arabic3169             Just one follow‑up question to your news commitment.  I understood you to commit to 4 hours 4 minutes per week of news, 70 per cent of which would be local?

seq level0 \*arabic3170             MR. DOERR:  That's correct.

seq level0 \*arabic3171             MR. MURDOCK:  Would you be willing to accept that commitment as a condition of licence?

seq level0 \*arabic3172             MR. DOERR:  We would.

seq level0 \*arabic3173             MR. MURDOCK:  No further questions. Thank you.

seq level0 \*arabic3174             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen for your presentation.

seq level0 \*arabic3175             We will now break for lunch and resume at 1:30 with the next application.   Nous reprendrons à 13 h 30.

seq level0 \*arabic3176             Oh, excuse me, I keep forgetting. You have your final word before sentencing.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

seq level0 \*arabic3177             MR. DOERR:  I've started this list three times.  Luckily it's here.  No.

seq level0 \*arabic3178             A couple of things.  I would like to close and before I do that I would just like to mention, I think it's important that Ryan Ford, Dan MacGillivray, Kim Woodbridge, Karen Steele and Jennifer McLellan have never served on a CRTC panel before.  They've put a lot of work into this and I would like to recognize in front you not only the work they did, but I think also modestly said, they did a wonderful job.

seq level0 \*arabic3179             Thank you all very much.

seq level0 \*arabic3180             To close the matter at hand I just would reference the "Why Standard?" sign and this is why I believe you should license us ahead of our competitors for 104.7 in Woodstock.