ARCHIVED -  Transcript

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

      THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

  CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

   ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:             TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver             Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street             900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia             Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 1, 2005          Le 1^er mars 2005

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

  Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

        

  VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

        

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Charles Dalfen          Chairperson / Président

Andrée Wylie          Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams          Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather          Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford          Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Pierre Lebel     Secretary / Secrétaire

 

Alistair Stewart          Legal Counsel /

Conseillers juridiques

 

Joe Aguiar          Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

HELD AT:          TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver          Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street          900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia          Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 1, 2005          Le 1^er mars 2005

 

TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

   PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I (cont.)

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

 

Radio India (2004) Inc. 257 / 1703

 

CHUM Limited    320 / 2036

 

I.T. Productions Ltd.    401 / 2487

 

Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation  471 / 2982

 

Newlife Communications Inc. 545 / 3440

 

 

 

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 1, 2005 at 0830 /

    L'audience débute le mardi 1 mars 2005 à 0830

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \r 16971697     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Order, s'il vous plait.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1698     Mr. Secretary, would you call the next item, please.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1699     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Item 4 on the agenda is an application by Radio India (2004) Ltd. for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1700     The new station would operate on frequency 93.1 megahertz on channel 226C1, with an average effective radiated power of 4,100 watts.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1701     Mr. Vic Sanghera will represent the applicant and he will introduce his colleagues.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1702     You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1703     MR. SANGHERA:  Thank you, sir.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1704     Firstly, I'd like to thank the Commission for your accommodation yesterday.  Mr. Gill is feeling much better.  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1705     Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.  My name is Vic Sanghera, and I'm the Operations Manager of Radio India (2004) Ltd.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1706     Before we start our presentation in chief, we would like to introduce our team.  Just one note before starting.  You will find that the same family name comes up frequently.  The only family relationship within this group is between myself and Maninder Gill, who is my uncle.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1707     To my left is Mr. Maninder Gill, the controlling shareholder of Radio India (2004) Ltd.  Mr. Gill has been active in the cultural life of the South Asian community since he arrived in Canada at 16 years of age.  He has been a concert promoter, a record label owner, a producer of television and radio programming, and, most recently, the Managing Director of Radio India 1600 AM.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1708     To his left is Mrs. Gaytri Kaul, who provides Hindi programming with a particular focus on family, health, and culture.  She was involved in women's literacy and health training in India.  Since her arrival in Canada in 1989, she has pursued her interest in music and has become active in radio.  She has been an on‑air host since 1995.  In addition to English, she speaks Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Bengali, Telegu, Kashmiri, and Gujarati.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1709     To my right is Tom Gill.  Tom is a Certified Management Accountant and the CFO for the Coast Foundation.  He was responsible for the preparation of our financial statements.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1710     Beside Tom is Ashiana Khan, who typifies the diversity of our community.  With an Afghani father and Indian mother, she was born in England and educated in Fiji.  She is fluent in Hindi, Urdu, English, Punjabi, and Arabic and can also speak Pashtu.  As our Business Manager, she makes sure everything works, and she hosts a daily Hindi program and hosts Urdu programs as well.  She is also our computer whiz, making sure that our systems work.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1711     In the second row, at your left, is someone we are looking forward to welcoming to our team if the licence is granted.  Irene Yatco is the publisher and editor in chief of the Filipino Journal, the newspaper that links Vancouver's Filipino community to the world.  Educated in commerce and accounting, she is an accomplished businessperson with interests in restaurants and import and export.  With experience in Vancouver as a radio host, Ms Yatco will program our daily Filipino program.  Her experience in promoting concerts makes her an excellent choice to administer our CTD initiatives in her community.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1712     Beside Irene is Gurpreet Singh.  Gurpreet holds a Master's degree in Communications and has worked as a print and broadcast journalist for the past 8 years.  In addition to his news and public affairs programs with Radio India, he is a columnist for the Surrey Now weekly and a correspondent for the Indian Express.  He is also the author of the book, Terrorism:  Punjab's Recurring Nightmare.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1713     Next to Mr. Singh is our regulatory counsel, Mr. Jon Festinger of Koffman Kalef.  Jon needs no introduction to the Commission after his lengthy career as a broadcast lawyer and as a broadcast operator.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1714     Beside Jon is another person we will add to our team permanently if we are fortunate enough to receive this licence.  Mr. Ramin Mahjouri will program our daily Persian language program and administer our Canadian talent development initiative for his community.  He holds a degree in Communications from Concordia and is the Vancouver editor of Paivand, a weekly Persian newspaper.  He hosts two Persian programs on the Shaw multicultural channel, one public affairs and one musical, and has hosted a one‑hour radio program for the last 6 years.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1715     Next to Ramin is Dalbir Gill, who hosts two weekend programs of popular music, one in Punjabi and one in Hindi.  He also serves as the supervisor of our music programming.  Dalbir holds a bachelor's degree from the University of New Delhi and has worked in theatre in India.  For the past 13 years, he has worked in radio and television in the Vancouver area, mostly producing and hosting entertainment programs.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1716     In the third row, at your left, is Sukminder Singh Cheema.  Sukminder is the chief journalist of the station, and he hosts our morning public affairs programs.  He started his journalistic career in Punjab in the 1980s as a reporter for two of the largest Punjabi newspapers.  Since his arrival in Canada in 1988, he has worked in both the English and Indo‑Canadian press and provides reporting for the Vancouver Province on events in the South Asian community.  He is an accredited member of the Canadian Association of Journalists and the Canadian correspondent for a number of newspapers around the world.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1717     Beside Mr. Singh is Rakesh Chand, who hosts our daily drive‑home Fijian program, "Drive Time with Rockin' Rakesh."  Mr. Rakesh has over 15 years of experience in producing and hosting radio programs in the Lower Mainland.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1718     Beside Rakesh is Omendra Singh, who is responsible for preparing our daily 10‑minute Fijian newscast.  He holds a diploma in journalism and a degree in Business from Simon Fraser University.  In addition to his work at the station, Mr. Singh is the publisher and editor of the Asian Star.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1719     At the right of the table are two consultants instrumental in getting us here.  Kerry Wicks is President and CEO of Mediastats, a firm well known in the broadcasting industry and to the Commission.  She supervised the preparation of our three research studies.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1720     Next to Kerry is John Matthews of Promethean Electronics who prepared our technical brief.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1721     We are now ready to start our presentation in chief.  We have provided you with a chart showing the name of each person and where they are sitting.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1722     We are here today hoping to move to the next stage in our development.  Our team has worked hard and is ready to be entrusted an FM licence to serve Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.  Radio India's four years of operations have taught us what the community needs, wants, and how to deliver it.  In each year, we have enriched the service we provide to the South Asian community.  We look forward to maintaining our existing level of service while improving and expanding it.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1723     To tell you a bit more about the company and its development, I would now like to call on Maninder Gill.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1724     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Thank you, Vic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1725     Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, Commissioners, counsel, and CRTC staff.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1726     I am proud to be here today with this team of dedicated and experienced broadcasters.  Together we have developed the best and most popular South Asian radio service in British Columbia.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1727     We have the experience, we have the passion, and we have the plans to provide a high‑quality stereo FM service to Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.  Our research shows that we are the most listened to South Asian radio station with over half of the community listening to us daily and another quarter listening several times per week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1728     I have had much experience as a radio and television producer of South Asian programming in B.C.  In the late 1990s, our community was frustrated because of the lack of local over‑the‑air programming.  At that time, it seemed that there were no Canadian AM or FM frequencies available in Vancouver.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1729     A number of local businesspeople looked for ways to serve our community and developed SCMO channels.  However, they did not provide a quality signal.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1730     When an opportunity to lease time from an American station came along, I moved to provide service along with some partners.  But we also continued to explore means to become Canadian licensees, including several attempts to purchase Canadian stations.  When Industry Canada changed its protection rules, we were able to make an application for a Canadian station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1731     Radio India (2004) is a new company, bringing together the existing studio and other resources of Radio India with my additional investment to fund it.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1732     Ashiana?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1733     MS KHAN:  Thank you, Maninderji.  Good morning, everyone.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1734     Unlike many other ethnic stations, Radio India does not broker its programming.  We are a commercial radio station with news, sales, programming, and business departments.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1735     Our conviction, gathered from experience, is that we need to provide quality programming to all the communities we serve.  This approach is not just good for the community; it is good for our business.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1736     From an operation with five employees in 2000, the station has evolved to 23 employees, of whom 17 are full time.  The nature of the service has continued to be enriched.  Every year has seen the addition of new features, including daily Fijian programming, a women's talk show, youth programming and much more.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1737     News is a key part of our operations at Radio India.  The Mediastats consumer research confirms our own market knowledge.  The four highest rated categories of programming were: news from the home country, news about the Vancouver South Asian community, information about Canada, and news about the South Asian community across Canada.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1738     To tell you about our proposals for news, here is Gurpreet Singh.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1739     MR. GURPREET SINGH:  Thank you, Ashiana.  Good morning, everybody.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1740     Our current four‑member news team provides seven local news bulletins each day.  Each bulletin is at least 10 minutes long.  Four of our local bulletins are in Punjabi, two are in Hindi, and one is in the Fijian language.  We propose to add daily 10‑minute Urdu, Filipino, and Farsi news bulletins.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1741     Our local South Asian newscasts cover the full range of local, regional, and national events.  They are supplemented by two live newscasts from India each day, one dealing with events in Punjab and the other from the rest of the country.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1742     Our journalists have extensive experience in news‑gathering, writing, and editing.  Our resources are significant.  We have connections to the major Lower Mainland ethnic and mainstream newspapers.  We are often invited by mainstream media to comment on community issues.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1743     We are now at the point that we have the capacity to be up to the minute, breaking local, national, and international news.  Our emphasis is on immediate and breaking stories along with the major news events of the day in the Lower Mainland.  This includes interviews with newsmakers.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1744     With our stringers and correspondents across Canada, in the U.S., U.K., and India, we can provide timely coverage of events across our country and around the world.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1745     And now to tell you about our public affairs program, here is my colleague, Gaytri Kaul.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1746     MS KAUL:  Thank you, Gurpreet, and good afternoon, Commissioners.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1747     We deal with community events of all kinds in our public affairs programs.  While some might call them open‑line programs, in fact they are more discussion programs with opportunities for listeners to participate.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1748     For example, Mr. Cheema's morning news program contains interviews and discussions with guests and the audience.  Gurpreet Singh's evening program uses a similar format, with less emphasis on news and more on discussion.  We cover everything from community and national politics, health and lifestyle issues, and culture and the arts.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1749     Ashiana's Hindi‑language program Aap Ki Pasand, the Urdu program Awaaze Pakistan, our women's talk show, and our proposed English‑language youth talk show all deal with a wide variety of issues and use many formats.  We usually try to have an expert guest who can provide guidance to our listeners, and we seek out our audience's input.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1750     One thing that we should point out is how multilingual our community is.  Most of the South Asians on this team understand and speak several Indian languages, as do most South Asians.  It often happens, during our programs, that someone calls in with a question in English, Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, or Kashmiri.  Most South Asians appreciate Bollywood music and Punjabi pop music.  This means that the smaller South Asian communities already enjoy our programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1751     Before we started, call‑in shows in our community were chaotic at best, based on the host's opinions and often lacking focus.  On the SCMO stations before our arrival, callers would leap from subject to subject, and it was not unknown for abusive and vulgar language to be used.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1752     We have worked hard to educate our listeners to the rules of professional radio, and we religiously repeat these rules:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1753     1.  The caller must stick to the topic being discussed;

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1754     2.  There must be no vulgar or otherwise abusive language;

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1755     3.  Remarks putting down another language group, race, or religion are not tolerated, nor are sexist remarks.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1756     Unfortunately, we have had to use our 7‑second delay from time to time.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1757     We do not shy away from controversy.  Recent programs have included conflicts in the Sikh temples and same‑sex marriage.  The discussion, although sometimes heated, must stay within the bounds.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1758     Of course, we also play a wide range of music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1759     I would now ask Dalbir Gill to speak about our music programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1760     MR. DALBIR GILL:  Thank you, Gaytri.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1761     Good morning to you all.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1762     The Indian subcontinent and its diaspora have a rich and diverse musical history.  At Radio India we try to capture as much of it as possible, as well as being in touch with how that music has evolved here.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1763     While many of our spoken‑word programs include some music, we focus on musical efforts in a number of specific programs.  They play music ranging from classical Indian and Pakistani music to Bollywood film and other pop music, folk and traditional Bhangra, and even fusion between hip‑hop and Bhangra music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1764     As you may know, Surrey is the centre of a growing South Asian music industry.  Maninder Gill has played a big role in developing the careers of local artists.  His commitment results in lots of airplay for local acts.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1765     We track our music, and I am proud to say that we regularly exceed 10 percent Canadian content.  The music comes from a variety of Canadian labels, such as Maninder Gill's Raja Entertainers, Sargam International Promotions, Latti Entertainment, Golden Star Video, the Video Shop, Music Waves, and Shammi Entertainers.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1766     Vic?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1767     MR. SANGHERA:  Thank you, Dalbir.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1768     As you can see, we have put in place the systems and we have the resources to be a critical programming success, and this has resulted in sales growth for our station.  We know how to sell in the South Asian retail community.  Many of our producers also sell sponsorship of their programs, as well as individual advertising spots, and Mr. Gill is a one‑man sales machine.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1769     The Mediastats advertiser study confirmed our own experience:  The South Asian retail community uses radio, and advertisers will expand their budgets to advertise on FM.  Our operating results speak for themselves.  In our first year of operations, in three months in the year 2000, our total revenues were under $80,000.  In 2004, they surpassed our most optimistic hopes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1770     While we have been successful with advertisers of South Asian origin, we have had more difficulty getting through to mainstream advertisers, both local and national.  Part of the resistance is that we don't have a measurable audience.  Further, these advertisers do not perceive us as being here for the long haul, nor do they see us as a Canadian station ‑‑ yet.  This application, in addition to giving us better technical coverage and stereo sound in Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, will help deal with some of the reasons why mainstream advertisers may not choose our station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1771     South Asian advertisers know we are popular because they see immediate results when they advertise, whether through on‑site at their businesses or by spot sales; but convincing Save‑on Foods, Zeller's, or B.C. Lotteries to advertise with us is more difficult.  They have no way to know if their investment is a good one, nor do they know if the rates charged are appropriate.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1772     The application process has also showed us a way to address this measurement issue.  The consumer research for Mediastats has shown the extent of our success program by program.  With this kind of information, we can fine‑tune our programming as well as show advertisers that their money would be well spent on us.  We expect to do regular surveys to ensure that we meet audience and advertiser expectations.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1773     When we started this project, we recognized that receiving a Canadian licence would require us to meet the broad service requirement of the ethnic policy.  As Gaytri Kaul noted, the multilingual nature of many South Asians means that our Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, and Fijian program is already attractive to many of the smaller groups, but at the same time, they have needs to speak to themselves as communities, and we decided that it would be appropriate to provide them with a weekly program that would zero in on their specific needs.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1774     We also decided that we needed to identify other underserved communities that would be compatible with us and which merited additional service.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1775     We asked Mediastats for three studies:  The consumer and advertising studies I have already mentioned and a demographic model.  The demographic model demonstrated that the South Asian communities were the most underserved and that there were also other underserved communities.  In choosing which of these groups to serve, we were guided by a number of additional factors:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1776     1.  We wanted to provide a meaningful level of service;

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1777     2.  We looked for the degree of demand in the community.  For example, existing SCMO services, television programs, and newspapers;

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1778     Finally, we wanted programmers with experience, credibility, and connections.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1779     We finally decided on two groups:  The Farsi‑speaking community, which includes Persians and some Afghanis, and the Filipino community.  We decided that we needed to provide significant service to each and to support the development of new talent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1780     I would now like to introduce Irene Yatco, our Filipino programmer.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1781     MS YATCO:  Good morning.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1782     When Radio India approached me, I was excited about the prospects of a daily program for our community.  I know the interest in this from Filipinos, as I am the editor‑publisher of the Philippine Journal and I've hosted a radio program in the past.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1783     My daily magazine program will provide the news of our community here in Vancouver, around Canada, and in the Philippines, as well as a discussion of community issues.  Thanks to the journal, there is already an infrastructure in place to ensure this.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1784     Filipinos are very active musically, particularly based in our choirs.  Winnipeg, Toronto, and Vancouver all have strong musical activity, and my program Balitang Pinoy will give voice to them, as well as music from home.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1785     I am particularly pleased by the commitment of $15,000 per year for a Filipino music contest.  I expect that this will culminate in a free concert at our Philippines Day festivities in the month of August.  I am one of the organizers of that event, and our board is excited about the possibilities.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1786     Radio India also proposes to ensure the active participation of our youth with other visible minority youth in a weekly talk show, and a journalism scholarship will be available to all groups they serve.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1787     Ramin?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1788     MR. MAHJOURI:  Thank you, Irene.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1789     The Iranian community in Vancouver is the second largest in Canada and one of the least represented.  The population here is estimated at over 50,000 people.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1790     Our newspaper Paivand is published weekly in Vancouver and is also distributed in Victoria, Calgary, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa.  Our existing infrastructure will ensure that our daily magazine program will provide a wide range of programming for a growing community.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1791     My existing radio program is only one hour per week, and essentially a phone‑in discussion program.  I'm looking forward to broadcasting music and other cultural content with an hour per day available.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1792     Even more importantly, having a daily program enables us to provide our community with much needed up‑to‑date news on a daily basis.  I expect that the existing advertising sales effort that our paper makes will be augmented by cooperation in radio sales, and I'm looking forward to efforts to reach mainstream advertisers with our story.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1793     Lastly, we also will have a musical competition, and our culminating event will be during the celebration of Persian New Year, which is in March.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1794     MR. SANGHERA:  Of course, our CTD efforts provide a significant amount of money for the South Asian community as well.  Over $50,000 each year to promote new South Asian acts.  With Maninder's international music connections and the money for CD and video production, we expect a few new international stars from Surrey, Abbotsford, and Vancouver will join the likes of Gill Hardip and K.S. Makhan.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1795     In all, we propose to devote $100,000 each year to Canadian talent development, all but $3,000 to be spent on local initiatives.  This is more money to local musical talent than any other applicant.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1796     We would now like to show you a short video about Radio India.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1797     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, we have come a long way in the past four years.  From a mostly Punjabi service, we have developed a strong theme that provides news, public affairs, and a wide variety of music programming in four languages.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1798     Our own research, and that of other applicants, demonstrate the support of the community for our present service.  The many interventions from community leaders, politicians, musicians, and others show that our proposal has found favour in that community.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1799     We have found a way to be financially viable, not by brokering or charging community groups a fee for access to our air waves; rather, quality programming and strong community service have made us the most trusted group in South Asian radio.  We are experienced and are a serious radio broadcaster, here for the long haul.  We are ready to be entrusted with this licence.  Our existing team and our new colleagues will make you proud of what we can accomplish as a Canadian licensee.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1800     Thank you.  We are ready to answer your questions.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1801     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1802     Commissioner Williams.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1803     Go ahead.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1804     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Mr. Chair, I would like to bring to your kind attention that my English is not that strong, but if I don't understand your question, I am going to ask Vic to explain to me in Punjabi, and then I will give you an answer in English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1805     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Gill, and Radio India panelists.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1806     Of course, some of the questions I'm going to touch on have been touched on by your opening remarks at some level, but I'd like to just explore quite a few of the areas in a little more detail just so we can more fully understand your application.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1807     A few general questions, perhaps, just to get started.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1808     Where is Radio India located?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1809     MR. SANGHERA:  It's located in Surrey, B.C.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1810     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Surrey, B.C.?  Could you please describe your business operation and facilities.  How do you operate from Surrey, say, without benefit of a licence?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1811     MR. SANGHERA:  We initiate our programming in Surrey, and we have leased time on KVRI 1600 AM, a station in Washington State, Blaine, Washington State.  We send our programming to that station, and they are in charge of broadcasting it.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1812     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What percentage of your revenues come from the Vancouver or Lower Mainland region?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1813     MR. SANGHERA:  All of them.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1814     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If your application is successful, how will your business operations change?  Where will you go from there?  Say, for example, would you continue your current AM operation, or would you modify it, sell it, close it down?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1815     MR. SANGHERA:  When we started this application, we had initially asked to broadcast on two transmitters, 93.1 and 88.5 FM.  It was our understanding that 93.1 FM does not cover the entire Lower Mainland region.  Many South Asians and other ethnic communities are living in Abbotsford and the other Fraser Valley communities.  Because of a technicality on our part, that second frequency is not being heard at this licence, and I would like, actually, John Matthews to talk more about that first.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1816     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  While he gets ready for that, what would happen with the U.S. station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1817     MR. SANGHERA:  Our plans with the U.S. station are following:  If we're awarded the licence, 93.1, firstly, we're going to come back right away, as soon as possible, to get the retransmitter.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1818     One of the disadvantages of 1600 AM is that the signal is not clear at night in some of the communities.  So the purpose of moving to FM would be to provide a clearer signal and also serve all the communities.  Our intentions are to simulcast for 6 months on 1600 AM so that a new company could not come and take over our operations, because it is our belief that 1600 AM is here for the long haul as well.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1819     So our intentions are to keep the station for 6 months, simulcast with our new station, and after that, it will move our operations to 93.1 forward.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1820     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Basically, after 6 months, there's no U.S. AM station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1821     MR. SANGHERA:  On our part, yes.  I don't know what we'll have to do with the station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1822     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Mr. Matthews?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1823     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Commissioner Williams.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1824     The problem on 1600 AM is one that you will also see when you hear the applicants for 1200 AM here in Vancouver.  Even daytime coverage into Abbotsford is week, but nighttime coverage is, on some of those frequencies, nonexistent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1825     On the FM applications you're hearing, you will see that the FM signal is not interference‑free as you move east, into the east end of Surrey even, let alone Langley, Aldergrove, and Abbotsford.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1826     My mission here ‑‑ my client has asked me to provide a service which can be inclusive of all the South Asian populations throughout the Lower Mainland.  It's really a question of inclusivity rather than anything that would seriously affect the business plan.  The numbers are significant but not huge in those communities.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1827     I would refer to Kerry Wicks for population numbers in those affected areas.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1828     Our notion was to apply on two FM frequencies in order to provide inclusive service.  Obviously, we can't talk much about what we would like to do on that second FM service as it's not before you now, but if you would indulge me a little, I would say that we're simply dealing with timing issues there, more than anything.  We had last‑minute objections from two licensees that stood to be affected somewhat by interference; and in both cases, we believe we have dealt with those objections in a timely manner, but certainly not in time to receive a technical authorization from Industry Canada.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1829     So what we would propose to do on that Abbotsford frequency is, if given the Vancouver licence, to set up a temporary authorization through Industry Canada and work with CHEK‑TV to establish parameters that could be used on 88.5 megahertz to serve Abbotsford and communities west of Abbotsford as much as possible.  So we would certainly be coming back to you with a subsequent application in order to provide that inclusive service.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1830     You have been provided maps that we hope explain the interference issue in the Vancouver market, and you've already heard from other applicants that there is serious first adjacent interference from a full‑power Class C station operating on the American side, just one channel away, and we're, I guess, somewhat optimistic that, on better radios, the Vancouver FM frequency will be able to provide service which is somewhat inclusive in Surrey, but I don't think you're going to hear from anyone that that Vancouver frequency is able to provide service in Langley or Aldergrove or Abbotsford, or points further east.  That is our motive for applying on that second frequency.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1831     MR. SANGHERA:  So, to sum up your question, if we are granted this FM licence, 93.1, we will do simulcast on 1600 AM and, again, we will come back right away with 88.5 frequency to cover the additional communities that 1600 AM covers currently.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1832     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Sanghera.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1833     If your application is unsuccessful, what would your business plan be going forward?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1834     MR. SANGHERA:  If our application is unsuccessful, we have been providing quality program service to the South Asian community for the last four years.  We've grown by leaps and bounds over the last four years.  We are heavily involved in fund‑raising.  We are heavily involved in news, which we know is very important to the South Asian community.  Our business plan would be to continue 1600 AM, as is, with some expansion to ‑‑ keeping in mind that our assumptions are that you are going to license two stations at this hearing, one AM, one FM.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1835     There will be significant competition for us, but we feel that the quality of our programming and the quality of our team here before you today, we will provide excellent programming and will continue to do so in the future.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1836     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  The comparison of the current Radio India schedule from your web site with your proposed FM schedule shows that about 79 percent of the programs between 6 a.m. and midnight would be reproduced on the FM station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1837     Would I be correct in assuming that the program producers associated with these existing shows would transfer to the new FM station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1838     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1839     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  About 21 percent of the broadcast week would be made up of programs that would be new to Radio India and you have stated there would be no brokered programming.  How will you recruit the producers that you need for the new shows?  Will they already be experienced broadcasters, specifically with experience in the area?  Will they have contracts with Radio India, or will they be station employees?  Just tell us a bit about that part of your business.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1840     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  We already have programmers in place for every program that we are proposing.  Most of the programs proposed, we are already practicing.  Our Filipino programmer is here, our Persian programmer is here, and, as mentioned, Gaytri speaks many languages.  So some of the languages that you see, Bengali and Gujarati, she also speaks those languages.  She has experience in broadcasting.  She will be programming those shows.  So there will be no brokerage, and we do have the programmers in place, with experience.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1841     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And they're employees as opposed to contractors?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1842     MR. SANGHERA:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1843     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Your program schedule shows a program named Samajam on Tuesday evenings at 11 p.m.  There's no direct reference to it in your table in section 7.12 of the application.  But there is a reference to one‑hour programming in Malayalam for Indians of South Indian origin.  Is Samajam the title of the Malayalam program?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1844     MR. SANGHERA:  That's a printing mistake.  Samajam is the name of the program.  Malayalam is the community targeted.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1845     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  In assessing the overall merits of your application, the Commission may wish to impose upon you conditions of licence related to your proposed levels of ethnic and third‑language programming.  In your case, this would represent at least 90 percent ethnic programming and at least 90 percent third‑language programming each week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1846     Would you be willing to adhere to these weekly levels as a condition of licence?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1847     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we would be willing to adhere to these, and as you would note, our program schedule actually has 98 percent, so we would allow for the flexibility, the remaining 8 percent, to allow for our youth talk show, and also for future cross‑cultural programming that we may intend to do.  Further, for our evening talk show, we propose to have experts and guests in every field, and as you can appreciate, some of those guests might not speak the languages that we speak, so their translation would be done; however, they would be speaking in English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1848     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  Additionally, would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence that is reflective of the ethnic programming contained in your application for service in the predominant languages listed?  Specifically, would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence that a minimum of 68 percent of all ethnic programming broadcast each week would be directed in the Punjabi and Hindi languages?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1849     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we would be willing to accept the condition of licence, and as our programming schedule notes, 67.5 percent of our program is directed towards the communities you mentioned.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1850     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So would 67.5 be more appropriate than 68 then or ...

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1851     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, 68 percent we ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1852     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sixty‑eight percent you ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1853     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we do.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1854     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I notice that in your supplementary brief, you've indicated a willingness to abide by a conditional licence that would prohibit broadcasting in any of the Chinese languages.  Are there any other commitments that you'd be willing to commit to as a condition of licence that would serve to maintain the nature of the ethnic programming service that you're proposing?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1855     MR. SANGHERA:  We do commit to broadcasting no Chinese languages.  We understand that as part of the broad service requirement, the Commission would like that service not be duplicated, and as you are aware, three ethnic stations do significantly serve the Chinese community so, yes, we would agree to that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1856     We would also agree to 10 percent Canadian content in our programming.  We are currently doing that already on our station, and we would definitely commit to that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1857     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  As set out in the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy, a primary responsibility of ethnic broadcasters relates to their ability to serve and reflect their community's and their station's local programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1858     We note your application plans to monitor your success by reflecting the community by repeating the consumer survey performed for you by Mediastats.  If you are awarded a 7‑year licence, when do you think you would commission the first such follow‑up survey, and would you repeat the survey one or more times before the expiry of your first licence?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1859     MR. SANGHERA:  As mentioned, we will follow up with that survey, and I would suspect that definitely within the first year, we would do our next survey, and we would continue to do a survey each and every year.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1860     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So an annual survey?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1861     MR. SANGHERA:  An annual survey, yes ‑‑ at least.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1862     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Give me some idea of the types of questions you'd be asking in this survey.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1863     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  I can refer this question to Miss Kerry Wicks.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1864     MS WICKS:  Thank you, Vic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1865     I would probably recommend that we would do questions along the line of qualitative surveying, also comparing the different types of programming on the air, reaffirming that we are still popular with our listeners.  The breakdown of the news; do people like the way we've divided news between news from home country, news from Canada, news from B.C. and local news?  If Radio India did pursue some cross‑cultural programming, of course we would want to explore that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1866     Again, these would be my recommendations to my client.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1867     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Depending on the answers, the type of answers that you get to your survey, what kind of actions do you envision taking to improve or enhance the reflection of local issues and concerns in your programming?  Have you thought ahead to that?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1868     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.  We will depend significantly on these research surveys.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1869     When we did our first survey, we were sure that the South Asian communities are heavily reliant on news.  However, this survey confirmed our initial understanding.  Based on that, we plan on continuing a significant level of news service to the community.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1870     Again, depending on each year of the survey, the recommendations, we will look closely at or work closely with those recommendations to broadcast our programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1871     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm going to move into the area of Canadian talent development now.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1872     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1873     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I notice that one of your Canadian talent development projects is to give $7,000 to a local dance school to underwrite the costs incurred by their students in travelling to dance competitions in the U.S.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1874     Will you have any oversight concerning how the money will be allocated by the school?  For instance, will this school be reporting the names of the recipients each year to the station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1875     MR. SANGHERA:  The dance school that we have in mind for the first year, Trinjin, Punjabi Folk Academy, is currently already active in competitions all over North America.  We would be providing them with additional ‑‑ this money would be in addition to what they are already spending, so they have the expertise in knowing where this money needs to go and we would just follow up with that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1876     Maninder would like to speak.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1877     MR. MANINDER GILL:  We are giving you this commitment, but our past history shows, in the last 25 years, I produced more than 15 singers from Vancouver, music directors, musicians, film artists, so I have lots of experience and I am helping these artists, and they're world‑wide, well‑known now.  Thanks.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1878     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  So you'll have ‑‑ I don't want to use the word "audit," but you'll have a way of verifying who the recipients actually were?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1879     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we will be doing follow‑up with the dance school, and it will be a different dance school every year.  Just because there are so many different aspects of the South Asian communities, different dance schools, different traditional folk singing, so we would be allocating that to different dance schools and we would be following up with an informal audit.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1880     MR. MANINDER GILL:  We do a yearly concert since the last 25 years in Vancouver, since we started Radio India.  So we do a free‑of‑charge concert every year in Surrey, so almost more than 20,000, 25,000 people gather and enjoy that event.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1881     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  You intend to provide $15,000 to each of the winners in the South Asian talent contest for studio recording time to produce a CD.  How will the CDs be used by the winners in advancing their careers?  What will they be doing with these CDs?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1882     MR. SANGHERA:  The $15,000 ‑‑ you're referring to the CD production?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1883     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1884     MR. SANGHERA:  Okay.  The $15,000 is actually for the producing of the master copy.  So that money is allocated to studio time, recording time, and musicians, yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1885     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you tell me what this master copy would be used for and also what the videos would be used for?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1886     MR. SANGHERA:  The promotion of the artist.  The video is our cost and helping promote the first album that the artist comes up with.  The CD, once produced, it won't have anything to do with Radio India; it will totally be the artist's CD.  So it will be up to the artist, what he plans on doing with that CD, where he plans on going with it?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1887     Maninder?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1888     MR. MANINDER GILL:  I have lots of experience in producing albums and CDs.  I have produced so far, in the last so many years, more than 175 albums, including local talent.  We have lots of experience here, in the U.K., Pakistan, and India as well.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1889     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  The winners of the Filipino and Persian talent contest would receive $6,500 for the production of a CD and 500 copies.  What use would the winners have for this prize?  How would they use this prize?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1890     MR. SANGHERA:  I would refer to Ramin for the Persian music contest and Irene for the Filipino contest.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1891     MR. MAHJOURI:  Well, right now, in Vancouver, we are suffering from a talent drain.  Most of our talent has moved down south to Los Angeles.  Vancouver is a very fruitful city in terms of artists, both in traditional music and more modern, pop music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1892     Doing what I do ‑‑ TV, radio, and newspaper ‑‑ I'm often asked by musicians and artists, they call and ask if I can produce their CDs, and I say I can't.  If they have a CD, we can play it on the radio, and if they have a video, we can show it on TV.  So there's a great need for Iranian artists to be promoted that way.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1893     We're thinking, with this generous offer from Radio India and this money allocated, the artists can produce a CD and video, whereby we can promote them.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1894     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1895     MR. SANGHERA:  Irene?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1896     MS YATCO:  It is a well‑known fact in the community, in the Filipino community, that there is a wealth of talents.  Unfortunately, they have no means to move forward with their talents, and this generous offer from Radio India will provide that vehicle for some of the talents to be able to make use of their talent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1897     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  As a result of Industry Canada's denial of your application for a technical certificate for the establishment of a transmitter in the Abbotsford market ‑‑ we talked about it a bit earlier ‑‑ am I to assume that these are your revised financial projections for a 7‑year licence term that reflects a change to your service area, and that your new Canadian talent development figures are the ones that we are to use?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1898     MR. SANGHERA:  Tom can answer this.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1899     MR. TOM GILL:   Mr. Commissioner, just before I start, many of my responses today will be referring to that same amended statement that you have before you, and, yes, the Canadian development talent to increase allocation to $100,000 does reflect our correspondence from December 15, 2004.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1900     You will also note that document includes just a summary of highlights for the financial operations, Schedule 4.4, "Summary of Assumptions," and Schedule 5.5, the methodology that we used.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1901     So in response to your question to the Abbotsford market, again, our model is a very conservative model.  It's based on what we currently do.  We are very successful in what we are doing right now.  The loss or the potential loss of the Abbotsford market is very nominal to minimal.  So I would not assume that there's any revenues that need to be taken out of this model to accommodate that last request for denial of licence for the second FM station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1902     MR. SANGHERA:  Just to add to that, the loss is mostly in listenership, in quality of listening for the audiences.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1903     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's talk about that for a minute.  What portion of your projected audience tuning do you believe will be generated from KVRI as well as KRPI, Radio Punjab, which currently transmits from Washington state as well?  Your new tuning, where is it going to come from, which portion of your audience?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1904     MR. SANGHERA:  The new tuning of our audience comes mostly from Radio India current listeners.  We're going to transfer our current operations to the FM ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1905     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Within the 6 months.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1906     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, within the 6 months.  So we're projected to take over our listening audience.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1907     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So it's purely your listening audience, or do you hope to attract other audiences.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1908     MR. SANGHERA:  Oh, we definitely hope to attract other audiences.  Moving to the FM band, music is going to be stereo sound, so we will have an advantage in that regard.  Again, as I mentioned before, we are assuming that there will be a successful AM incumbent in this hearing as well, so keeping that in mind, listeners, depending on programming, quality of programming, is where projections lead to.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1909     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  In your deficiency responses, further along the same area here, dated 15 December '04, you indicate that approximately 70 percent of your year 1 advertising revenues be generated from existing services, of which 65 percent would be from your service transmitted from Washington state.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1910     As a point of clarification, is this 65 percent of total revenue, or 65 percent of your out‑of‑market services.  An example:  45 percent of year 1 projected revenue?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1911     MR. TOM GILL:  Sorry.  Can you repeat the question?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1912     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sure.  In a reply to us on the 15th of December, 2004, you indicate that approximately 70 percent of your year 1 advertising revenues would be generated from existing services, of which 65 percent would be from your service transferred from Washington state.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1913     As a point of clarification, is this 65 percent of total revenues or 65 percent of your out‑of‑market services?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1914     MR. TOM GILL:  It is 65 percent of Radio India ‑‑ 65 percent will be of current Radio India revenues.  So we are allocating new radio advertising to be 10 percent and also incremental spending by existing radio advertisers, 10 percent, and advertising directed from other media, such as newspapers, to be 10 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1915     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So that's 95 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1916     MR. TOM GILL:  From other ethnic broadcasters.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1917     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So 5 percent is the answer to the question.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1918     MR. TOM GILL:  Yes, that's right.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1919     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You've indicated that your proposed new service will be attractive to the estimated 20,000 South Asians in and around the Abbotsford area.  With your new wave serving that area, what percentage of your revenue do you think would come from that?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1920     MR. TOM GILL:  We conservatively estimate that the Abbotsford area has a potential of maybe 5 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1921     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  From a technical perspective, what, in your view, are the compelling reasons to grant you the requested frequency?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1922     MR. SANGHERA:  Before I pass this question on to John, we believe that there is a significant amount of the South Asian community living in Abbotsford and region, close to 30,000, and that's including Abbotsford, Langley, Mission, Aldergrove, Haney, so those communities would be left without coverage, even with the 93.1 frequency, and I'd call on John to talk more about that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1923     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  You've been provided a map that compares the coverage that has been proposed by different FM applicants.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1924     You can see, by looking at that map, that we have made maximum use of the frequency 93.1.  We've also been thorough about putting together a coverage solution that reaches all of the South Asian communities from Vancouver to Abbotsford, and we hope that that inclusivity of service will be something that you consider as important as we do.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1925     Examining that comparison map, you can see that Radio India's interference‑free contour through Surrey, for instance, is reaching close to 50 percent of the Surrey population.  The area that is most in jeopardy is southern Surrey.  Only on better‑quality radios would we expect interference‑free service in that area, and we're hopeful that, given the opportunity to test transmissions in Abbotsford, that we'll be able to provide some further service in areas of Surrey that are not reached by the Vancouver signal.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1926     The map we've provided, labelled Map D, the fourth map in the PowerPoint presentation, shows you the combined service areas based on a very conservative approach to what we would expect to be able to do than Abbotsford.  It's a scaled‑down version from what had been originally applied for in Abbotsford, and it's basically the least that we would expect.  We would expect it to be somewhat better, depending on the results of tests that we would do in cooperation with Industry Canada and CHEK‑TV.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1927     In summary, what we're hoping for here is an FM service that, between the two frequencies, is somewhat continuous between Vancouver, all the way to Abbotsford, and we hope that there will be no South Asian populations or communities that will be excluded as a result of the rather difficult adjacent interference on the Vancouver channel and the ‑‑ co‑channel interference on the proposed Abbotsford channel.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1928     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  One final question, I guess, is:  In what way does your proposal constitute the best use of frequency 93.1, particularly from a technical perspective?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1929     MR. SANGHERA:  Again, for a technical perspective, I can pass it to John.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1930     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Vic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1931     Simply a matter of making maximum use of the frequency in Vancouver, we're hoping to reach more people, despite the interference, and likewise with regard to Abbotsford.  We don't know why the other applicants have overlooked it, but we think it's important enough that we will come back to you with an application to ensure that we can include those communities within our service.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1932     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1933     Mr. Chair, that concludes my series of questions for this applicant.  Thank you very much.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1934     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  In regard to your music programming, you indicated in your response to our deficiencies, that you'll be carrying some 54‑1/2 hours of spoken word; is that correct?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1935     MR. SANGHERA:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1936     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what will be the musical content; the balance of the time?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1937     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, that's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1938     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1939     MR. SANGHERA:  Correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1940     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I have it that, Mr. Gill, you've been introduced as a concert promoter, record label owner, and so on, and I'm wondering whether ‑‑ and I assume that a number of the artists that are under contract to you will be aired on this station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1941     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Yes, which artists I produce, we play their songs, plus my staff, like, you know, they play more songs from my competitors.  We already mentioned here, like, you know, the Music Waves, Latti Entertainment, and other media companies in Vancouver.  So we always love to play those songs as well.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1942     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have internal procedures or guidelines in respect of access to your air waves by artists who are not under contract to Mr. Gill to you avoid a kind of favouritism to those who might be?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1943     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Not at all.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1944     MR. SANGHERA:  I think he said, "Not at all."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1945     THE CHAIRPERSON:  He's not concerned about it?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1946     MR. SANGHERA:  No, he's saying that we don't have any favouritism.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1947     In regards to that, the policies that we would have in place mostly are that the listening audience, the level of quality that we provide our listening audience, if we were to give specific favouritism to Maninder's artists, we would hear it from our listeners.  So to keep our high level of service where it is, I mean, we would keep it upon ourselves to promote other artists as well, because there are a significant amount of artists here, they have a wide variety of talent, and each artist caters to different parts of the communities.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1948     In regards to Maninder's artists, it might be that, you know, most of his artists target more traditional‑type music.  So if we wanted to provide more modern types of music, we would have to go to other music labels, such as Sargam International Promotions or even Music Waves, such artists as Jazzy B.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1949     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I understand that.  I guess rules are set up to take care of worst cases, to take care of cases where there might be a suspicion or feeling among certain sectors that that isn't happening, and I'm wondering whether you'd be prepared to develop some form of rules of practice, guidelines, code to ensure that the public and other artists can be comfortable that there will be access ‑‑ in the event of a complaint ‑‑ that there will be standards against which you'll be evaluated as to whether you're not giving such favouritism?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1950     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.  We haven't looked that far yet.  We operate in good faith, just as every other station does.  But we would definitely look at successful models that do have such features in their policies, and definitely, we would hold ourselves to a standard that could be compared against, yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1951     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Plus, you can see from letters of support, there's so many other companies supporting us on this issue.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1952     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  No, it's not for normal course that we're concerned.  Again, these rules come up because, at the extremes, there is sometimes disaffection or suspicion, and in those cases, it's useful to have ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1953     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  And I would like to point out that if we had any such bias in the past, it wouldn't be shown in the amount of letters of support that we have received from artists across the board.  If you look at our public file, we have artists that are on Maninder's label, we have artists that have nothing to do with Maninder.  He's been in the business for 25 years.  There are some artists that have never worked with him, and they have signed letters of support in our favour.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1954     Again, we would, if you require so, we would have standards of policies in going forward.  But in good faith, we do play all musicians and artists.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1955     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1956     Commissioner Wiley?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1957     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Matthews, would you help me understand these maps better?  If I look at the "B" map ‑‑ well, first of all, Mr. Gill, perhaps you can tell us, where is the majority?  Or is there an area where the audience you are targeting is situated in greater proportion to other areas of Vancouver?  Is it the Lower Mainland?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1958     MR. SANGHERA:  You're asking for where the largest concentration of South Asians are?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1959     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1960     MR. SANGHERA:  Kerry, could you answer that question?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1961     MS WICKS:  Essentially, it is the whole area, Vancouver and the Lower Mainland; and the percentage of the population that would be left out, if you will, or the number would be about 25,000, without the Abbotsford transmitter.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1962     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But, Mr. Matthews, if we look at the coverage shown on the Map B, I guess ‑‑ am I to understand that what you're getting by continuing to transmit on 92.9 and, concurrently, at 93.1, you're actually creating interference to 92.9?  Is that what the "B" map shows?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1963     MR. MATTHEWS:  No.  Any interference that takes place to the American station that is on the frequency 92.9 would take place over Canadian land, at least not over U.S. land.  The international agreement doesn't permit us to interfere with a U.S. station over U.S. land.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1964     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  With regard to reaching your audience, 93.1, if you continue on 92.9, 93.1 then covers the northern part of Vancouver but not at all the southern part.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1965     MR. MATTHEWS:  Yes.  What Map B shows you is the interference area, which is due to the existing station operating from the U.S. on 92.9.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1966     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So that is not changing by broadcasting on 93.1?  It doesn't get any worse?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1967     MR. MATTHEWS:  We're in no position to alter the parameters of the U.S. station.  What we can do is portray the extent to which that interference limits coverage on 93.1, which is the proposed channel.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1968     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So far the time that it may take to solve the Abbotsford type of retransmitter, you would ‑‑ 93.1 would have the effect of improving coverage in the northern part of Vancouver but not changing it in the southern part, in the Lower Mainland?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1969     MR. MATTHEWS:  I'd like to make clear, first of all, that the frequency 92.9 is under operation by ‑‑ has nothing to do with Radio India.  Radio India is operating on 1600 AM right now.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1970     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  On the AM, okay.  Oh, so that one, there would be no ‑‑ on this map, I'm sorry, you're just showing the interference that exists at the moment ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1971     MR. MATTHEWS:  92.9 is a classic rock station operated by some Chicago entity ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1972     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ and 1600 doesn't make that worse?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1973     MR. MATTHEWS:  No.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1974     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No.  So you would be improving coverage to the north and not making it worse.  I misunderstood ‑‑ thank you ‑‑ that it was not the frequency 92.9 that was causing this.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1975     MR. MATTHEWS:  I would be happy to take you through this series of maps ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1976     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No, I think I understand my mistake, yes.  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1977     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1978     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1979     I have some questions that are probably best characterized in the realm of kind of wonderland or something, because I'm going to ask you about some situations over which we have no jurisdiction and, therefore, of course, don't exist.  But, in fact, they do exist, and I'm curious about them.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1980     I guess really what I'm interested in is the whole notion of what this market, the appetite, if we can call it, for the type of radio service that you and other applicants have come before us with, aimed at the communities that all of you basically are aiming them at in various degrees.  What is the market, what's the appetite out there, for these services?  Because, in fact, they're already being served, being served by radio services that don't exist, as far as our jurisdiction goes, but do in the real world.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1981     And so I would like first to just get a notion of what the competitive world is like right now between you and the other station that doesn't exist.  Could you give us a little idea of what it's like competing for market share in Vancouver at this point between two stations coming out of Washington state?  And I don't expect you to give us confidential numbers, but if you could give us some sort of narrative sense of what the battle is like out there for market share?  I think that would help me to understand what this market can take.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1982     I'll tell you where I'm leading ‑‑ I'm sorry to be so long in the asking.  But you did make a statement that you expected two radio stations to be licensed coming out of this, so it does make me curious, as to just what this market can bear.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1983     So what's it like right now, today?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1984     MR. SANGHERA:  The research that we've had gone in regards to our advertising research ‑‑ and I'll let Kerry talk more about that ‑‑ shows that roughly 43 percent of businesses advertise using radio.  Of that 43 percent, the two stations that don't exist make up for about 90 percent of the revenues.  It is a competitive market.  For us, we don't own that station, as the other station does.  We have a significant lease to fulfil.  So we compete on our programming.  There's no way that we compete on price‑cutting or any other feature, so strictly programming ‑‑ news, quality programming service.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1985     To talk more about the specific stats, I'd refer to Kerry first.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1986     MS WICKS:  Thank you, Vic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1987     Yes, as you can see from our demographic model, this is a large community.  The South Asian community alone ‑‑ and these are 2001 numbers, so, of course, it's only grown since then ‑‑ there's a couple hundred thousand people.  This is larger than many small cities.  So we certainly feel that the community can support a number of applicants.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1988     Our advertising research reinforces the fact that these are people who do spend money on advertising.  They advertise regularly.  Our weighted average was $1,000 a month.  Two thirds of our advertisers are spending over $500 a month, and radio is close to half of that.  So we do believe there is room for ourselves and another licensee.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1989     And then in addition to that, our consumer research reaffirms that people are listening to the radio frequently, so the advertisers are being heard, their message is getting out.  People are listening.  If you only take our radio station, half of the people surveyed are listening every day and another quarter are listening several times a week, and our competitors are enjoying considerable listenership as well.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1990     So, yes, we think there is room for ourselves, all of the existing incumbents, plus another applicant.  Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1991     MR. SANGHERA:  To add to that, based on our existing revenues and based on that research, we can ballpark that there's approximately $4 million in the existing radio market.  If you divide that by giving us the successful FM licence, a new AM licence, and also 1550 still being there, you can divide that three ways and there still is a market for all three stations.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1992     MR. MANINDER GILL:  And add to that ‑‑ I just want to mention one more thing.  We have a very lovely team.  They have good experience.  We charge even more money than mainstream radio charges.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1993     Our Sukminder Singh team has a morning program.  We charge $95 per slot.  And we never go under $20 at Radio India at any time.  So we are doing extremely well on Radio India 1600 AM.  So we have lots of connections in the community.  So that is why we get this.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1994     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There's some feverish note‑taking going on out there in the audience, I just want to warn you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1995     It's not up to me to tell you how to protect your business.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1996     Let me push the scenario just another step because you've told us that ‑‑ I think what you've told us is that the two of you are both succeeding in this market, the two existing radio stations out of Washington ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1997     MR. SANGHERA:  Based on our research, yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1998     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think you've just said, if I understood you correctly, that there would be room for one more in there, in the sense that I suppose the scenario you're giving us is that it actually would be two Canadian‑licensed services and then one other continuing, and in your dreams, not your own.  So we're up to three.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n1999     Now let me give you the worst‑case scenario.  We don't licence you ‑‑ this is all hypothetical; I don't want any tears ‑‑ we don't licence you, we don't licence the other existing Washington player.  So the two of you carry on.  But we do licence a Canadian AM and FM service.  So we now have four services scrapping over market share.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2000     What do you think of that in the terms of a business case?  I don't want to hear about your disemployment, because this is all hypothetical.  But in the sense of trying to keep your operation going, can this market of the sort of numbers we've heard here, can this market absorb that amount of competition?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2001     MR. SANGHERA:  The short answer is yes, in our opinion, and the reason for that is, even if we weren't successful for the FM licence, you gave the FM licence to another applicant, hypothetically, there wasn't a successful AM incumbent, we still existed, 1550 still existed.  Although it would be tough, we're going to run on our program.  We have full confidence in our team.  We have quality, experienced broadcasters in news and in our musical programs.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2002     One of focuses that we would change to rely even more heavily on is news.  Our research has shown that news is very important to the community.  AM bands in general, even on mainstream radio, are successful, news formats on AM; and as I mentioned, we do have a significant lease agreement, so there's nothing that we can do in that regard, so we feel confident in our team.  We have grown in leaps and bounds in the last four years.  We probably wouldn't grow as significantly in the future, but we would continue to grow.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2003     MR. MANINDER GILL:  More to add.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2004     Actually, if we don't succeed in the application for a new FM licence, we're going to not leave 1600 AM at all.  We love to provide service to my community.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2005     The four different communities we are serving now, you can see from the letters of support, each and every temple ‑‑ from Sikh temples, Hindu temples, Muslim mosques ‑‑ each and every one of them is giving us a letter of support.  We give them a fantastic service.  They are really proud of Radio India, and I am really proud of all these four nations.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2006     So we have huge revenue.  Why should we leave?  I have 25 years' experience.  Every year when I do a concert, so many other promoters bring a concert on that month, and sometimes the same day, but I always be successful.  I have lots of connections in that community, and the community knows me very well and I know the community very well.  Not only the Sikh community, but all these four or five different communities as well.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2007     MR. SANGHERA:  Another thing I would like to add to that is, in answering your question, we also have to take into consideration, if we are the successful incumbent for this frequency that, as I mentioned, 1600 AM is not going anywhere.  The station that operates that, that is their business.  They have over 50 stations across the U.S., and that is their business plan, to seek out ethnic communities in the markets and to sublease the time.  So if we take over 93.1, we are taking into consideration that someone is going to take over 1600 AM and also have taken into consideration, when we want to simulcast for 6 months, and that's our rationale behind that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2008     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would you be offended if I put the same question, though, because there's so much enthusiasm in your team and so much trust in your ability ‑‑ and that's good.  That's a good thing.  But would you be offended if I put the same question to Miss Wicks, just on the sense of straight numbers.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2009     From your experience, do the numbers you're giving us today support four radio services?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2010     MR. SANGHERA:  Go ahead, Miss Wicks.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2011     MS WICKS:  Thank you, sir.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2012     I think it goes without saying, more services, more competition means it's going to be tougher for everybody.  Where we base our numbers and where you'll see the confidence coming from our team is that we have a proven track record, we are a going concern.  So when we say we're number one, when we say we will be number one, we're not just making that up.  We're speaking from experience, and we believe we have the team to sustain the competition for the long haul.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2013     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  More high enthusiasm.  But if I may ask:  What about the straight numbers?  Looking at that as a professional student of these matters, I mean, you've given us a total population catch basin, if you were coming in this cold, no existing stations, just that number, that population number, would it support four services?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2014     MS WICKS:  Yes.  This is a quarter of a million people.  This is a sizable market.  The South Asian portion of the Greater Vancouver market is as big as a large city unto itself, and that is why we feel it can sustain the competition.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2015     That is why you will hear all of us actively reinforcing our message.  We are prepared for you to license two people, not just ourselves.  And we are prepared not only to compete within the market but also to be complementary to the other applicants and the other incumbents.  Our programming schedule demonstrates that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2016     MR. SANGHERA:  Just to add to that, sir.  As Kerry mentioned, we do figure about 250,000 South Asians living in this community.  It's my understanding that the City of Kingston, Ontario, a population of 100,000, is successfully supporting five stations.  So we don't see why this market would not support four stations.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2017     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  A lot of different formats in Kingston, though, whereas you folks are offering pretty well the same type of a format, aren't you?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2018     MR. SANGHERA:  But in regards to programming, there's a lot of different target audiences in the programming as well.  I mean, just saying that we cater to the Punjabi community does not mean you cater to Punjabi community.  If you put one type of song on for a first generation Canadian, his or her tastes are going to be different than a new immigrant from India.  So there is room within the communities for different types of programming in each language.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2019     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2020     Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2021     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2022     Counsel?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2023     MR. STEWART:  Merci, monsieur le président.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2024     Just a quick follow‑up question.  You refer to cross‑cultural programming and that you intended to do some, and I believe in your application, you also mention that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2025     Now, I don't know if you were present yesterday when there was a discussion about the definition of ethnic programming with respect to cross‑cultural programming, and I infer from your presentation and your application that you do not consider the cross‑cultural programming that you would be proposing to be ethnic programming, as defined under the policy; is that correct?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2026     MR. SANGHERA:  That is correct.  That's why we're allowing for 10 percent.  That's why we're committing to 90 percent ethnic programming, 90 percent third‑language programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2027     MR. STEWART:  Again, in light of the discussion of yesterday, the cross‑cultural programming that you are proposing is not ethnic programming, in your view, for what particular reason?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2028     MR. SANGHERA:  Again, first, we're not proposing cross‑cultural.  We're asking for that flexibility, just in case we do decide to do cross‑cultural, and it is our understanding that that type of programming does not fall under the criteria for ethnic broadcasting, so that's why we're allocating that in the 10 percent rather than the 90 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2029     MR. STEWART:  Okay.  Fair enough. Thank you.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2030     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presentation.  That ends your participation in phase 1.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2031     We will take a break now and resume in ten minutes at ten o'clock with the next item.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0955 / Suspension à 0955

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1010 / Reprise à 1010

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2032     THE CHAIRPERSON:       Order, please.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2033     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2034     Item 5 on the agenda is an application by CHUM Limited for a licence to operate an English language commercial FM radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.  The new station would operate on frequency 93.1 megahertz on channel 226 C1, with an average effective radiant power of 1,780 watts.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2035     Mr. Paul Ski is appearing on behalf of CHUM.  You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2036     MR. SKI:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2037     My name is Paul Ski, and I am Executive Vice‑President of radio for CHUM Limited.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2038     Before I introduce my colleagues, I just wanted to express how personally exciting it is for me to be here today to share with you a cutting edge proposal for the future of Vancouver radio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2039     Two years ago, I was asked to head up all of CHUM's radio operations from coast to coast, but prior to that, I spent 21 wonderful years here in Vancouver managing our local radio stations, and witnessed firsthand how this city has exploded into one of the most diverse, cosmopolitan, and diverse communities not only in Canada but maybe in the world.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2040     For some time, we have been following the emergence of the modern global music phenomena.  When we saw the call for a new radio service that would reflect the ethnocultural diversity of Vancouver, we knew this was the right time and the right place to make this groundbreaking concept, modern global radio, a reality.  The result is PlanetRadio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2041     Before we elaborate on our proposal, however, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of the team that put together this application, as well as members of our local advisory committee.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2042     Joining me today, to my far right, your left, is Roma Khanna, Vice‑President of CHUM Interactive.  Next to Roma is Peter Miller, our Vice‑President Planning and Regulatory Affairs for CHUM Limited.  To your right is Rob Farina, Program Director for CHUM FM.  Next to me is Prem Gill, Director of Multicultural Programming and Public Affairs for CHUM Television here in Vancouver.  Prem is also the Supervising Producer of the local show Ethnosonic, but most Vancouverites will know her as the host of Colour TV.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2043     In the back row this morning, starting to your right, is Kerry French, Director of Research for CHUM Radio.  Next to Kerry is Duff Roman, Vice‑President Industry Affairs, CHUM Radio.  And next to Duff are two members of our local advisory committee:  Cassandra Onyejikwe, better known in local rap and hip‑hop circles as "Ndidi Cascade," is not only an emerging artist in the process of recording her second independent album, but is also an educator and facilitator, visiting schools and community groups using her art to help build understanding and identity among Vancouver's youth.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2044     Next to Ndidi is Todd Wong.  Todd is an acknowledged cultural engineer, and in that role, has been a leader in conducting educational programs to advance cross‑cultural understanding.  Todd is perhaps best known here in Vancouver as the creator of the cross‑cultural festival Gung Haggis Fat Choy, a joint celebration of Chinese New Year and Robbie Burns Day, a festival that is geared to bridging Vancouver's various ethnocultural communities together.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2045     I also wanted to make special note that we are joined today in the audience by Jay Switzer, President and CEO of CHUM Limited, and former COO and CHUM Limited board member, Fred Sheratt.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2046     Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission:  In our brief time today, we hope to share with you our vision for what we believe will be a groundbreaking new kind of radio offering, and in doing so, we plan to give you a taste of what PlanetRadio is all about, show how PlanetRadio will fill an important void in Vancouver, and explain how PlanetRadio will bring increased diversity to Vancouver and the system.  By the time we wrap up today, we hope to have answered three fundamental questions:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2047     1.  Will PlanetRadio clearly reflect the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of Vancouver?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2048     2.  Will PlanetRadio advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2049     3.  Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2050     As we will demonstrate, we believe the answer to all of these questions is "yes."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2051     MS GILL:  As Paul noted, Vancouver is one of the most diverse cities in the world.  Its residents are multicultural, multilingual, and multiethnic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2052     I was born and raised in this city, and I am just one example of the Vancouver of today.  Like many young Vancouverites, I am Canadian and extremely proud of my cultural roots.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2053     You may be asking yourselves whether the ethnic broadcasters in this group serve people like me, first‑ and second‑generation Canadians.  The answer is no.  In my parents' kitchen, Punjabi Radio is always on.  I may listen to it when I'm visiting them and enjoy the experience.  However, when I return to my home, I'm listening to artists from all over the world, not just South Asia.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2054     For the last four years, I have been the supervising producer of Ethnosonic, Citytv Vancouver's weekly global music show.  On Ethnosonic, we explore sounds from the world's most vibrant music scenes in an effort to find new reflections of the human spirit.  The music we feature on the show is complex and dynamic and appeals to a diverse generation of Vancouverites.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2055     PlanetRadio will draw on our experience with Ethnosonic.  PlanetRadio's mission will be to seek out the best music from around the world and share it with an audience eager to experience contemporary international sounds.  PlanetRadio will be the first station in Canada to champion a genre we are calling modern global music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2056     Musical influences are transcending geographical borders and are apparent in the eclectic sounds that are emerging from the streets of the world's urban centres.  Cities like Sao Paolo, Brazil; Ibiza, Spain; Mumbai, India; Vienna, Austria; and right here in Vancouver, you can hear everything from Aboriginal hip‑hop in East Vancouver to Bhangra music from Surrey, as well as many other groundbreaking artists who are marrying modern trends in music and production with their regional influences.  PlanetRadio will showcase these artists.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2057     Given that this is the first service of its kind in Canada, the best way to get PlanetRadio is to experience it.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2058     MR. FARINA:  PlanetRadio will promote a growing, diverse, cutting edge Canadian music scene that, as numerous intervenors noted, receives limited airplay, if any, on conventional radio.  Instead of marginalizing their material, PlanetRadio will celebrate the works of such trailblazers as War Party, Chin Ingenti, and Kiran Aluwahlia.  In total, a minimum of 35 percent of PlanetRadio's music selections will be Canadian.  At least 50 percent of these songs will be uncharted, guaranteeing exposure for emerging artists.  Moreover, of PlanetRadio's Category 3 selections, 20 percent will be Canadian, double the regulatory minimum.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2059     In addition, CHUM will spend over a million dollars to support Aboriginal and ethnically diverse Canadian talent and the further development of modern global music in Canada.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2060     When reading the call, it was clear that this process called for applications from both third‑world language services and services that would reflect the diverse reality that is Vancouver.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2061     We are proposing a service that connects with the largest emerging group of diverse Vancouverites.  They are connected to their roots, but they live in English, and are navigating cultural experiences from around the world.  They are, in fact, the next generation Vancouverites who have been missed by both conventional commercial radio and traditional ethnic radio.  Our mission is to create a radio experience that is truly reflective of their reality.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2062     PlanetRadio will accomplish this in three ways:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2063     First, modern global music is a music format that is inherently and unabashedly diverse.  The station will take audiences on a musical journey around the globe.  Over 45 percent of the station's musical selections will come from outside of North America and a minimum of 20 percent will be in over 20 languages other than English and French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2064     Second, building on CHUM Radio's Best Practices on Cultural Diversity, we will fully reflect the diversity that is Vancouver.  Not only will this be easily achievable in the case of a start‑up station, but given the nature of the station's format, this diversity will be central to PlanetRadio's success.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2065     Third, PlanetRadio will provide listeners with a minimum of eight hours of locally produced, culturally diverse spoken word programming each week.  The station's spoken word programming will take one of three forms:  Long‑form programming designed to promote cross‑cultural understanding; features consisting of interviews with artists from Canada and around the world which will offer valuable insight into this emerging musical genre; and news and public affairs programming focussed on issues of importance to our listeners' communities.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2066     In short, we are inviting Vancouver's youth to experience the world through music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2067     MS KHANNA:  CHUM is a leader in connecting with today's youth on their own terms and integrating their media preferences.  With recent advancements in technology, music is being created, recorded, and shared at almost an unprecedented rate.  Today's young Canadians live in one of the most wired countries in the world.  They are technologically savvy, garner musical influences from around the globe, and connect with like‑minded people on multiple platforms.  They view themselves as members of a global community of lovers of music and culture.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2068     Since fall 2001, time spent listening to radio for Vancouver residents between the ages of 12 and 34 has declined by three hours to 15.4 hours per week.  Tuning by younger Aboriginal and ethnic Vancouverites would be even lower.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2069     To connect with Vancouver's youth, PlanetRadio will have to compete with the internet, MP3 players, online communities and blogs for its audience.  Our goal is to create a radio format that is relevant to the diverse youth of Vancouver, becomes a meaningful part of the media mix that they consume, and speaks to them directly.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2070     To do this, we will need to offer them a total experience that they are not currently finding on other media.  As well, we will need to integrate new technologies, such as the internet and wireless, to reach out to listeners and create an interactive experience and community around both the radio programming and the artists featured on PlanetRadio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2071     MS FRENCH:  Statistics Canada data for the Vancouver CMA shows that 39 percent of Vancouver's population are either visible minorities or Aboriginal.  70 percent of visible minorities are under 45, and 37 percent of visible minorities are under 25.  The breakdown for the Aboriginal population skews even younger.  95 percent of Vancouver's young visible minority and Aboriginal population speaks English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2072     Though these young people come from many different cultural backgrounds, they share not only a global view and a love of music, they connect in the same language:  English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2073     At present, no radio station is dedicated to serving Vancouver's multicultural youth.  Vancouver's ethnic media may provide some programming that is of interest to younger generations of immigrants or second‑ or third‑generation youth who are more fluent in English; however, the bulk of the programming they offer is directed at an immigrant population that is looking for a link between the "new land" and the "homeland."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2074     In contrast, Vancouver's commercial radio stations cater to an audience seeking more conventional, hit‑driven playlists and programming.  While Vancouver's diverse youth do listen to these stations, given the evidence of declining hours of tuning, they're not getting everything they need.  PlanetRadio would answer that need, providing music and programming currently unavailable in the market, specifically targeting young visible minorities who define themselves simultaneously as Canadian and as members of a particular cultural community and heritage.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2075     Young Vancouverites from visible minority and Aboriginal communities want a station that reflects their contemporary Canadian experience, one that offers music and programming from multiple cultures, shifting between them and promoting a shared cross‑cultural reality.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2076     In effect, our goal with PlanetRadio is to create a station that bridges the void between traditional ethnic broadcasters and conventional commercial broadcasters.  Not only will this appropriately fill a hole in the market, it will ensure that PlanetRadio will have minimal impact on the existing commercial broadcasters or any traditional third‑language broadcasters that operate today or may be licensed in this process.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2077     MR. SKI:  The Broadcasting Policy for Canada, as set out in Section 3 of the Broadcasting Act, states that the Canadian broadcasting system should:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2078     "encourage the development of Canadian expression by providing a wide range of programming that reflects Canadian attitudes, opinions, ideas, values and artistic creativity ..."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2079     and

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2080     " through its programming and the employment opportunities arising out of its operations, serve the needs and interests, and reflect the circumstances and aspirations, of Canadian men, women and children, including equal rights, the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of Aboriginal peoples within that society ..."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2081     These two objectives are the basis for the Commission's quest for diversity, both from a programming or format perspective and an ethnocultural perspective.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2082     With respect to programming diversity or diversity of format, the Commission has implemented a number of policies to help achieve this goal.  For example, format diversity was highlighted as one of the potential benefits of the changes the Commission made to the radio common ownership policy in 1998.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2083     The Commission has also been clear that both traditional ethnic licensees and mainstream broadcasters have an important role to play in the advancement of cultural diversity and cultural understanding.  CHUM has a very long tradition in this area, not only through on‑air representation and leading the industry in best practices, but by making diversity central to what we do.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2084     As frequencies become scarcer in many large markets, it is increasingly important that the Commission use these opportunities to promote diversity in both senses of the word.  PlanetRadio is such an opportunity.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2085     There is a major segment of the population in this city that is young, diverse, cosmopolitan, multilingual, and, by their very nature, worldly.  Both mainstream commercial radio and traditional third‑language broadcasters have not connected with this audience.  PlanetRadio will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system by filling this void.  CHUM's established base in Vancouver will ensure that PlanetRadio has the resources to make this happen.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2086     At the outset of our presentation, we wanted to give you a feel for the station, show where the station's listeners will come from, and demonstrate how this application will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2087     In addition, we indicated that we would try to answer three questions:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2088     1.  Will PlanetRadio clearly reflect the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of Vancouver?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2089     2.  Will PlanetRadio advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2090     3.  Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2091     We believe the answer to these questions is a resounding "yes."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2092     In closing, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair members of the Commission, we would like to acknowledge the over 100 interventions from ethnocultural artists, the music industry, and members of countless communities that represent the entire planet.  As you walk the streets of this city, you may notice its magnificent geography, but more importantly, you can't help but be charged by its diversity.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2093     While global music is a growing and increasingly successful genre, it is uncharted territory for the Canadian radio industry.  If there is anywhere in Canada where this type of radio station can break through, it's here in Vancouver.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2094     Clearly, the planet has come to Vancouver.  Vancouver's unity is in its diversity.  That diversity is in search of a voice, and that voice is PlanetRadio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2095     Thank you for your time.  We look forward to your questions.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2096     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2097     Vice‑Chair Wiley?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2098     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2099     In your application early on at 7.6, you say that there will be 6 to 8 hours of spoken word programming, including news, and that's repeated in your supplementary brief at page 10, a minimum of 6 to 8 hours.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2100     Do I conclude from that that there could be as much as 120 hours per week of music?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2101     MR. SKI:  I believe that's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2102     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  We'd like to understand a little better what this type of music, which you describe as a blend of traditional world music with modern global sounds, what the sound of the station will end up being.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2103     In your supplementary brief, at pages 1 and 8, you actually refer to some of the centres from which this music will come.  At page 8, you have Sao Paolo, Hong Kong, London, Bangalore, Seoul, Paris, Tokyo ‑‑ are some of the cities from which the music would come.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2104     Will there be any attempt to have on your playlist music that is particularly desirable ‑‑ or there is an appetite for it in Vancouver due to the majority ethnocultural groups; in other words, will there be more from Hong Kong, more from South Asia because of the cultural groups that make the Vancouver population?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2105     MR. SKI:  I'll let Rob Farina, our programmer, first of all, talk to what modern global music is, and then maybe Prem can add a little bit more about the various types of music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2106     MR. FARINA:  Sure.  Thank you ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2107     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, yes, but also, an answer to the question would be, are your playlists going to be made of by reference to concentrations of ethnic populations in the area that your signal will reach?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2108     MR. SKI:  Yes, they will.  I'll let Rob expand, Commissioner.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2109     MR. FARINA:  With advancements in technology, as the Commission is well aware, the rate at which music is created and shared is unprecedented.  In this wireless age, musical expression has introduced the modern global music movement.  Modern global is a diverse genre of music that includes rock, dance, hip‑hop, world beat, acid jazz, folk, and roots.  It is contemporary music from around the world of particular interest to youth audiences.  Modern global marries new technology and current music trends and genres with indigenous sounds from different cultures.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2110     Examples of artists in this modern global genre are artists like Angelique Kidjo, who's cross‑pollinated her West African traditions of her childhood in Benin with elements of R&B, funk, and jazz, and she's now based out of France and one of the largest artists in French and records both in African and English language; Romania's Ozone, that recorded a contemporary version of a hundred‑year‑old Romanian folk song and turned it into a hit in 23 different countries throughout Europe and Asia; right here in Canada, artists like Leslie Feist, who fuses alternative folk and jazz and lounge music, and although she's still relatively unknown in Canada, she's actually nominated for a Juno award this year in the alternative music category.  Her career has taken off in Europe.  In France alone, she sold over 100,000 copies of her debut CD.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2111     Modern global music is the popular music throughout many parts of the world where the overwhelming presence of American culture doesn't dominate the indigenous music of that country.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2112     In answer to your question, "Will the music reflect the most prominent cultural groups represented here in Vancouver?"  Obviously, it's important for us to ensure that those groups are well‑represented, because they will be key to the success of this global music station.  At the same time, music, being the creative medium, is in constant flux.  It's in flux in terms of the product flow, and it's in flux in terms of what the tastes of the youth audience are in any given moment.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2113     Hopefully that answers your question as well as we can with this genre being so diverse.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2114     MS GILL:  I would just like to add, Vice‑Chair Wiley, that as much as, yes, the concentrations of the majority of the visible minorities in our city are from the South Asian community and the Asian community, as we expressed in our video and in our opening presentation, we are people who are these cultural navigators ‑‑ yes, I have a real interest in hearing music made by South Asian people from all over the world.  But, at the same time, I'm extremely interested in the sounds coming out of Brazil, the sounds coming out of Hong Kong, the sounds coming out of France, the sounds coming out of Italy; and that's what the term "modern global" is.  Is that because the majority of faces in this city, in the visible minority majority, are of Asian descent?  It does not mean that is the only music and that that needs to necessarily always be the majority of the music being played on our stations, on PlanetRadio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2115     There's an interesting vibe that's happening in this city right now where you see, you know, a South Asian tabla player hanging out with a Scottish bagpipe player and making music together.  These are things that are actually happening in our city.  And that's sort of the fusion and the sharing of music that's going on.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2116     MR. FARINA:  Commissioner Wiley, if I could go back to your comment about 120 hours of music programming?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2117     The actual net hours of music programming is just slightly under 96 hours, and that's when we take out the components of commercials and the disc jockey talk on back cells throughout the week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2118     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  We'll go back to the spoken word later once we get a fix on the music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2119     In your experience, is this global world beat music also appealing to English‑language speakers who don't have an ethnic heritage?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2120     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.  Again, the technology has really brought down the borders of music, and the growth of this music world wide, which has come from all centres of the world, really takes up increasingly more and more rack space.  Here in Vancouver, if you walk into the Virgin record store down the street, it's striking the amount of rack space in the world beat/electronica sections, and these compilations, which each of these compilations ‑‑ first of all, I must say that they're not cheap properties because they usually come in as imports.  Fusion III distribution, based out of Toronto, is the prime importer of these, and the cost of these compilations is usually in the $35 to $40 range, and they usually sell about 5,000 to 6,000 copies each, which on the surface may not sound like a big number, but it actually is a large number due to the volume of product that gets released from around the world in this genre.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2121     This music crosses all cultures and really the spirit that it's made in is in the spirit of sharing and experimenting music from diverse genres in a contemporary format.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2122     MS GILL:  And the language on our streets of Vancouver amongst the demographic that we believe PlanetRadio would appeal to is English.  I think and function in English.  I do understand other languages, but that's not the only type of music I'm looking for, isn't necessarily just in English and Punjabi.  You know, I love music from France and from South America.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2123     The key to the link here is that all of us from our diverse backgrounds ‑‑ and there's also a huge population in Vancouver of people of mixed race heritage who identify with different cultural heritages, is that English is our common link, and that's what brings us together to talk about this music from the different parts of the world.  The amazing thing about this genre of music is that it's not necessarily about the words.  It's like listening to opera or something.  It really is about the vibe of the music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2124     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So I can conclude that what you're saying is the South Asian youth in Vancouver could be interested in music from Rome, or somewhere in Italy, just as the non‑immigrant or non‑recent‑immigrant youth or of English‑speaking heritage could be interested in music from Hong Kong and Bangalore?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2125     MS GILL:  Yes, absolutely.  I also think it's really important to note, and something that's emerging in our city, is the abundance of music from the Aboriginal community, specifically the younger generation, that they are creating their own versions of rap music, and they're actually fusing music with South Asian music.  It's like Indians playing music together from ‑‑ you know, they're different types of Indians, but that's what they all refer to themselves.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2126     So it really is a magical thing happening, that it is truly transcending borders ‑‑ as flaky as I know that sounds, but it really is happening.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2127     MR. FARINA:  Further to that, the spirit of PlanetRadio is celebrating the cultural works in an inclusive manner and in a spirit of sharing and experimentation and discovery.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2128     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  My understanding is that you're proposing 75 percent Category 2 and 25 percent Category 3 music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2129     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, we suggested that based on our reading of sub‑category definitions of Category 3, that's what it would average out to.  We'd be happy to talk about that more specifically.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2130     We also ‑‑ and I'm sure you have it ‑‑ have the conditions of licence that we proposed in the deficiency that address many of the issues that you've been alluding to, including the fact that, by committing to a minimum of 45 percent of musical selections from outside North America, plus a 35 percent Can‑con requirement, means, for example, that our U.S. selections would be limited to 20 percent of the station.  So those are the ways we approached it in our deficiencies.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2131     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  When you say 25 percent on average, what did you have in mind over what you would average in the 25 percent Category 3?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2132     MR. SKI:  Sorry, Madam Vice‑Chair, I didn't quite hear the question.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2133     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Miller repeated that, and it's in your application at 7.3, that on average ‑‑ no, it's in your deficiencies at page 7, that on average there would be 25 percent Category 3 music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2134     I'm curious, what did you have in mind about what that would be averaged over?  A day?  A week?  A quarter?  A month?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2135     MR. SKI:  That would be averaged over a week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2136     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Over a week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2137     Now, your Category 2 will be 35 percent Canadian, as required by the regulations; correct?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2138     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2139     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And that will be Category 2 music, popular music, popular Canadian music?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2140     MR. SKI:  Not necessarily.  Some of that music could also be Category 3.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2141     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I'm not talking about Canadian content now, I'm talking about language.  The rest of that 75 percent of Category 2 will be in English?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2142     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2143     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It will be international pop music in the English language.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2144     MR. SKI:  Or French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2145     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I understand from your response at page 5 of the deficiency that, to you, world beat and international music, that is, in a language other than English, would not be Category 2, that would be Category 3.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2146     MR. MILLER:  This was our difficulty in trying to frame and come up with useful measures and proposed conditions of licence.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2147     As we read sub‑category 33, it would include international music, certainly that is third‑language, so that would incorporate our 20 percent overall commitment; but as soon as something was a popular international track, so if it was a piece of Japanese popular music in English, it falls outside ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2148     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  In Category 3.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2149     MR. MILLER:  ‑‑ sub‑category 33, and therefore Category 3.  That was the dilemma we were trying to grapple with in coming up with appropriate conditions ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2150     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I'm trying to understand your limitation of 20 percent only would be non‑English, non‑French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2151     MR. MILLER:  That would be a minimum, that's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2152     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So that would be then 20 percent of the 25 percent, which makes it Category 3.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2153     MR. MILLER:  No, that would be 20 percent that would fall within the average 25 percent Category 3 and fall within the 45 percent from outside North America.  So it's not ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2154     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So, Mr. Miller, what, in your view, would be the minimum or maximum non‑French, non‑English songs on this station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2155     MR. MILLER:  We didn't define a maximum non‑English, non‑French, we just defined the minimum.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2156     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, 20 percent only.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2157     MR. MILLER:  Sorry, 20 percent minimum.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2158     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Non‑English, non‑French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2159     MR. MILLER:  Twenty percent minimum non‑English, non‑French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2160     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Only.  Is that a maximum?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2161     MR. MILLER:  If that was the way it was worded, I apologize.  What we meant to say was the 20 percent non‑English, non‑French was a minimum.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2162     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes, you're correct.  It's a minimum of 20 percent.  What would be the maximum then of international songs in languages other than English and French?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2163     MR. MILLER:  We haven't proposed a maximum ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2164     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You wouldn't propose a maximum?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2165     MR. MILLER:  No, we haven't and we wouldn't.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2166     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But they would definitely not be Category 2 if they were in a third language?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2167     MR. MILLER:  Our understanding, again, of your definitions, correct, that what you're saying is correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2168     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You know why these questions are being asked.  One has to look at the ‑‑ which we'll discuss later ‑‑ is the extent to which this is a station that is mainstream or in answer to the call.  We'll get into that later.  But first we have to establish what it is that it's going to sound like, what is it going to be, and it's a bit difficult to come to terms with how many selections in a week would be in a language other than English and French or Aboriginal language.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2169     MR. MILLER:  The dilemma that you pose is exactly the dilemma we faced in trying to come up with a unique format, that as we said in our opening statement ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2170     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Have you not expected this question and come to an answer as to minimum and maximum of the languages other than the mainstream languages and Aboriginal languages?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2171     MR. MILLER:  Again, we have proposed a minimum of 20 percent.  We had not thought that a maximum would be appropriate.  If that's something you want us to think about ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2172     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So it could be as little as 20 percent of the broadcast week?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2173     MR. MILLER:  A minimum, that's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2174     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2175     MR. SKI:  Madam Vice‑Chair, as Peter was alluding to, we did have some challenges with sub‑category definitions, because when we looked at world beat and international, the description says, "This genre includes world beat music that draws heavily from the traditional music styles of countries throughout the world."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2176     And the word "traditional" sort of caught us a little bit there because the target of this radio station is young adults and youth.  I think, if you look at sub‑category 34, for instance, which is jazz and blues, that sub‑category not only covers traditional and various other types of jazz and blues but it also covers soft contemporary jazz, contemporary jazz fusion, and other contemporary and emerging jazz styles.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2177     So we had a dilemma, as Peter mentioned, because we didn't see a contemporary focus or a way to play contemporary music under that world beat sub‑category 33 category.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2178     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And when you say that 45 percent will come from outside North America, that's measured over both Category 2 and 3?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2179     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2180     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, in your application at 7.3, at the very beginning, you say that "the music will be in a variety of languages."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2181     What we have difficulty coming to terms with is to what extent will it be in English and to what extent in languages other than English?  Because you give me a minimum, but we don't know just ‑‑ considering your playlist, you've submitted, I think, three specific hours.  You don't have a sense of what an average percentage of Category 2 or both categories when it's a song, in what language it will be?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2182     MR. FARINA:  Commissioner, if it helps, out of the average week, just under 96 hours of music programming, we play 1,439 selections per week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2183     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  One thousand four hundred ...

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2184     MR. FARINA:  And thirty‑nine.  What we did was we averaged each song at about 4 minutes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2185     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2186     MR. FARINA:  Out of that, 288 songs a week are in languages other than English and French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2187     We committed to reasonable distribution of non‑English and French music.  What that basically means, in simplistic terms, is one song out of five will be in a language not English or French.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2188     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  So that's the answer to what you expect the station to sound like, is for every four songs in English or French, there will be one in a language other than ‑‑ okay.  Well, that ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2189     MR. MILLER:  Part of the rationale there is a lot of these songs, either from international artists in English ‑‑ because, again, English being a common language, those international artists sometimes do sing in English; and, secondly, there's also, of course, an instrumental component.  So what we're saying is one out of five would be in languages other than English and French, but the remaining four out of five are not all going to be English and French, if you understand that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2190     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Aren't we back to our 20 percent?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2191     MR. SKI:  We are, yes, but the 20 percent, as we mentioned, is a minimum.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2192     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But you're telling me that's likely to be ‑‑ from the playlist you've put together, that's likely to be the sound of the planet, is 20 percent in languages other than.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2193     MR. FARINA:  What we're saying is that that is the minimum commitment.  When we looked at this format and we looked at the music and we also looked at the fact that a lot of artists ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2194     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, I'm not really looking at a minimum commitment.  I'm looking at whether this service will be in answer to the call, which we can get back to ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2195     MR. FARINA:  Right.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2196     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ and then a minimum doesn't help, right?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2197     MR. FARINA:  Okay.  Well, when we get into that ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2198     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You keep answering a minimum, is going to be the average ‑‑ the likely sound of the station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2199     MR. FARINA:  That's correct, Commissioner.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2200     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, Canadian content.  There's 35 percent for Category 2, as required by the regs.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2201     Category 3, a minimum of 20 percent.  This minimum of 20 percent is not proposed as a condition of licence, is it?  That's what you'll try to do, but it's not proposed?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2202     MR. MILLER:  We'd be happy to have it as a condition of licence ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2203     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2204     MR. MILLER:  ‑‑ but to be clear, the 35 percent minimum commitment would also be an overall commitment.  So whatever the mix is between Category 2 and 3, we would commit to 35 percent Canadian content ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2205     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Regulation for Category 2, a condition of licence of 20 percent instead of 10.  And overall, 35 percent; is that a condition of licence?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2206     MR. MILLER:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2207     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2208     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You are now saying you're accepting this as a condition of licence?  Because if you do a calculation, out of, you say, if you have 1,039 and you calculate them separately, you get many more Canadian selections; you know that?  But 35, you're prepared to accept that as a condition of licence overall.  Okay.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2209     Because when you read the application, sometimes you speak of songs, sometimes of music selections, et cetera, so it'll be clearly 35 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2210     So I think now we have a bit of a fix on the music.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2211     When you say 96 hours will be music, the rest is your news, which we can talk about in the spoken word, and also interstitial presentations of programming, all of that has been excluded to come to 96 hours.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2212     In the spoken word, all of it will be in English?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2213     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2214     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It will be 100 percent in English, including the interstitial, the introduction to programs, to the music, to the news.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2215     MS GILL:  It will be predominantly in English, but it would not exclude, you know, translation happening.  If there's an artist from ‑‑ you know, Angelique Kidjo, who we featured in the video, she also speaks French.  If she came and she was more comfortable speaking French or in her native tongue from Benin, we would be translating that simultaneously for our listeners.  So it doesn't exclude that there wouldn't be some sort of third language in the spoken word, but it would be predominantly in English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2216     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It would be incidental, as required or as needed.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2217     Now, the 6 to 8 hours includes, if I understand correctly, 3 hours of news and public affairs; right?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2218     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2219     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And then you get 2 hours of news.  Tell me how you arrived at 2 hours.  What I have here is two two‑and‑a‑half‑minute packages of news, 5 to 9, during the week?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2220     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2221     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And one four‑minute, 3 to 6, during the week, and one hour of public affairs programming on Sunday, 60 minutes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2222     So the news calculation, how do you arrive at 2 hours?  I haven't quite made it.  Two two‑and‑a‑half‑minute packages, 5 to 9.  How does that add up for you?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2223     MR. FARINA:  Well, Commissioner, each morning we've got 20 minutes of news, which is 5 minutes each hour over 4 hours.  Then we have an additional 12 minutes of news in the afternoon drive show, which gives us daily news of 32 minutes over five days.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2224     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So you calculate then the news to fit the 5‑to‑6 hour in the morning?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2225     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.  It's an important drive time, yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2226     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I was looking at the regulatory broadcast day.  That's why perhaps I was missing that.  Because the regulatory broadcast day is 6 to midnight, so you added that in as well, and an hour of public affairs on Sunday, 60 minutes.  So that's where I had 15 times 5 instead of 20 times 5.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2227     And that includes surveillance, news, sports, all of that?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2228     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2229     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And also international news?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2230     MR. FARINA:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2231     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So would it be like a headline news format, the usual format?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2232     MR. FARINA:  No.  Commissioner, because we're targeting a youth audience, we need to deliver that news to them in an innovative and different fashion.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2233     The news programming will be balanced between local news, with specific emphasis on topics of relevance to youth.  Those can be youth crime, technology, cultural issues, pop culture, and then the international news ‑‑ we not only have to cover world events, but we need to put some framework around those world events and deliver that information in a language that they understand.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2234     As well, part of our news makeup is investigative journalism.  Because community youth topics are not widely covered, we need to assign a reporter to research and report on stories that speak to this audience.  We also plan to use this investigative journalism as a marketing vehicle for our weekend one‑hour public affairs programming, which we've called Word on the Street.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2235     An example of the topics we would cover there is there's a growing trend in the Asian community to get plastic surgery to look more Western.  So we would do reports throughout the week on that, and different sides of the issue, in a way to drive the audience to an open discussion on the weekend, which we then support on the interactive front with a web site.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2236     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You say in your application that the youth audience that you are targeting has a real appetite for international news and information.  Is two hours of news a week a lot or a little to meet this appetite and this apparent failing of the other radio stations to satisfy their appetite for international news and information?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2237     MR. SKI:  What we have to understand is what the target of the radio station is.  This radio station will be serving youth and young adults.  As a result of that, music is going to be the initial draw for those particular people.  It's what draws younger adults and youth to radio, and if we don't have them in the tent, obviously there's not much more that we can do.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2238     As a result of that, we felt it was important to make sure that the music was there first and then the spoken word was an added component to that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2239     Prem can give you an idea of how that might work.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2240     MS GILL:  Basically our spoken word and our news are kind of extensions of each other.  We're looking at it all as a package.  We are the young adults, the young listeners in Vancouver.  We are information junkies, as you noted, Madame Wiley.  We are looking for information in all sorts of places.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2241     My colleague, Roma, kind of can tell you a little bit more about, you know, how much time we spend on the web looking for information.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2242     But because this is a savvy, sophisticated, very smart audience of people that ‑‑ yes, they want news and information, but if they are listening to a modern global music station, they also want more information about the artists.  That's why the other spoken word programming we've proposed in addition to the news is all about the music that they are listening to.  And this music, a lot of the world music that has come out in the past and still is, is about things happening in our world and what connects us all together.  It's almost like it's a seamless transition going from our different types of spoken word programming that, yes, it is about the music, but at the same time, it is looking at issues around the world, issues in our city.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2243     As I have been saying, there's a real buzz in this city that I don't feel when I travel around Canada and go to other places.  The uniqueness here is that, yes, I'm very interested in the election that's just happened in India, but why is it affecting my community here so much, both the South Asian community and the non‑South Asian community?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2244     So I think it's a real, yes, we want more information, but it's not just necessarily in the daily news.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2245     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So, now, you said it was 6 to 8 hours, including the 2 hours of news.  So I would be correct, then, that what you would be left with, Miss Prem, what you've just described, is 3 to 5 hours a week of complementary spoken word programming, both long form and short form?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2246     MS GILL:  Correct, yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2247     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  To satisfy this ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2248     MS GILL:  It would be 8 hours a week.  I think it's important ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2249     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, you have to ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2250     MS GILL:  A minimum of 8 hours a week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2251     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ deduct the 2 hours of news.  So when I'm looking at the spoken word programming other than news, which, if you deduct the 2 hours of news, you have 3 to 5 hours a week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2252     MR. FARINA:  Madam Commissioner, it's actually two and a half hours of news, unless you're discounting the 5 to 6 a.m. hour, because it's 32 minutes a week, Monday to Friday.  Two and a half hours.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2253     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  If you discount the 5 to 6 ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2254     MR. FARINA:  Then it's 2 hours.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2255     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  And the interstitial programming or short form would be 3 to 5 minutes in length.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2256     MR. FARINA:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2257     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And the long form?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2258     MR. FARINA:  The long‑form programming is an hour in length.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2259     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  That's the hour that was included with the news that you're talking about.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2260     MS GILL:  There is a variety of long‑form programming that we've proposed.  Three of the programs that relate directly to the music are one hour each and then one hour of Word on the Street a week.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2261     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, how will you gather the news?  Will you use synergies from other CHUM stations in the city?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2262     MR. SKI:  That's not our intention, and it might be helpful to understand a little bit about how the three current CHUM stations operate.  They're in quite diverse formats.  One is a soft adult contemporary station, another is a sports station, and the other is a talk radio station that's targeted to women.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2263     As a result of that, those three stations are quite distinct in their approach.  There's really no crossover between one station and another in terms of the hosts.  In addition to that, our sales forces for all three of those stations are different.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2264     So I would imagine that there's the possibility of possibly a reporter covering a particular feature, and we wouldn't send two reporters to that, and that information might be brought back to the station, and at that point it would be interpreted by whoever is responsible for the information on any one of those stations, because they each have their own special character.  So it's very difficult for us to take a news story, a news feature that's done for one station and it's complementary to that station; it wouldn't be complementary to any of the other stations.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2265     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Miss Prem, the spoken word, you emphasize, is going to be very much connected to the music as interstitial, et cetera.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2266     Explain to me the ‑‑ both in your research, audience research, at page 1 it talks about trying to find the desire for multicultural talk, and you yourselves, in more than one area in your application, talk of spoken word that encourages and promotes cross‑cultural understanding.  How will that operate, considering that it'll be in English and it will be mostly connected to the music played?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2267     MS GILL:  As we noted ‑‑ you know, I'm not here, of course, to speak for all of the young people of Vancouver, but as someone who is, you know, I'm very active in the local cultural communities and the youth scene.  We talk to each other in English.  Even when I'm talking to other young South Asian people, we're not hanging out and speaking Punjabi.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2268     So I think it's important to note that, yes, the importance of cross‑cultural programming is that it is in English because that's the language that binds us together.  And when we have a program like Women In Global Music, which is one of the long‑form programs we are proposing, if we have someone ‑‑ we have a local music festival in Vancouver every year called Rock for Choice, and it features independent Canadian artists, and it's a women's music festival.  So that is, at the same time, local, but it also is ‑‑ Rock for Choice is a pro‑choice music festival.  So that creates all kinds of interesting dialogue.  And because of our desire to have our listeners involved with us, whether it's through the web or through text messaging or through any other wireless means or calling us during these shows, that's a way for us to promote that kind of dialogue.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2269     So we're not just looking at issues about culture, necessarily, always, or issues about racial things, but, you know, we are complex ‑‑ as all of us are ‑‑ we're complex people who think about all types of issues and the broad range of stuff going on in our communities.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2270     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You have mentioned TV programs that CHUM has been successful with, such as Colour TV and Ethnosonic.  How easily can these programs be adapted or recreated for the radio medium?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2271     MS GILL:  Well, television is visual, obviously, and radio people are listening to it.  So as much as there may be elements of these programs that will inspire some of the stuff happening on PlanetRadio, the topics that we cover on ‑‑ let me sort of go back for a second.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2272      Ethnosonic, we've talked about it, we talked about it in our opening statement, is a world music video program, and it is the rhythms and the songs that people are listening and watching it for, but people watch music videos for different reasons than they listen to radio.  I mean, this whole station is building on our experience with Ethnosonic and the response that we've had from local viewers.  In that sense, yes, it's something to build on, based on our experience.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2273     I mean, our unique experience at Citytv Vancouver has been that this cross‑cultural type of programming ‑‑ and for us, it's just part of our local programming schedule, and local programming in Vancouver happens to be cross‑cultural ‑‑ is that it's just a natural extension of what's going on on the streets of our city.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2274     On Colour TV, I talk about everything from what's happening in Hollywood when it comes to portrayal of the gay and lesbian community to what's happening with the local Israeli and Palestinian communities and, you know, what they think of the cease‑fire.  There's such a broad range of topics and stories that I'm constantly being pitched for both Colour TV.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2275     Ethnosonic is a music video show, but if it was a different type of program, there's so many world music artists that are coming through our city constantly that you can't always, you know, find a place for them on television.  But with a place like PlanetRadio, you know, there's a local artist named Xavier Rudd who's huge in Australia, but he had a sold‑out concert at the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver on Friday night, yet nobody on mainstream radio would know that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2276     So that's part of our excitement for kind of building on our experience with our cross‑cultural programming on Citytv in Vancouver, is that there's so much potential and opportunities to extend what we've learned from our television experience on to a property like PlanetRadio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2277     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Word on the Street on Sundays is going to be your hour of public affairs programming aimed at encouraging cross‑cultural understanding.  Who will be involved in formulating this?  Will it include open line?  Will it include youth of various ethnic groups participating?  What is it going to sound like, or is it again going to be wrapped around music, musical artists?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2278     MS GILL:  Word on the Street will actually be an extension of our news and information programming.  If this week we have looked at, as Rob mentioned ‑‑ and it sounds very strange that this idea of Asian people, who are beautiful people wanting to look more Western, this is kind of a hot topic and it's very controversial.  This could be a feature news story that was on earlier in the week on PlanetRadio, and on the weekend, we might bring in somebody who's had the surgery and not had the surgery and have the reporter who did the story also come in and ‑‑ it's an extension of what news can't necessarily always do.  We can expand on topics.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2279     Cross‑cultural understanding ‑‑ we understand each other a lot; there's just a lot of complexities and sameness and cultural issues that we're all dealing with that a program like Word on the Street can be just another link, instead of sort of having, you know, programming kind of segregated and, "Okay, I'm going to have the Punjabi hour now and we're going to talk about issues for young South Asian women in the Punjabi community," well, our issues are actually the same or very similar to someone in the Korean community or someone in the Aboriginal community, that we all are kind of dealing with the same kind of reality.  It's not necessarily linked to our cultural heritage at all times.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2280     MS KHANNA:  The other thing, Madam Vice‑Chair, to keep in mind, in terms of building the stories and building the discussion, is taking this multi‑platform approach that's very integral to the lifestyle of people in this demographic under 35, so the idea of using the internet as a forum for discussion, a forum to raise issues, to let debates rage in a more open sense, and then to cull from that the most interesting discussion and bring that to the on‑air environment is going to be an integral part of how we look at this radio station format.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2281     You were speaking earlier to the idea of how do you satisfy the appetite for world news of this young demographic.  Well, when you look at a really complex media mix, and the complex media mix that they consume, there's this concept of efficiency of medium.  What medium does what best?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2282     FM radio is fantastic for music, and the internet is fantastic for discussion and debate.  So it's not that the discussion and the news doesn't take place on the radio signal itself, but it is complemented by the other experiences that we're going to build into PlanetRadio, because we're trying to make this reflective of the actual culture of the first‑generation lifestyle.  A lot of these young people, myself being one included, don't speak their native language fluently.  In fact, I speak French better than I speak Hindi and Punjabi, and that's because I'm Canadian and I studied French for many years.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2283     So we're trying to bring in this multifaceted approach to the discussion.  I think it's going to be very important.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2284     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, I'd like to discuss with you the perceived demand for the planet, and you filed an audience ‑‑ Research International Inc. ‑‑ study.  In the very first paragraph, it talks about Ottawa.  Should that have been Vancouver?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2285     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2286     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  People interviewed were between the ages of 13 and 44.  I love people who think 44 is youth.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2287     MS GILL:  Madonna is 47 now, and she's pretty youthful.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2288     MR. SKI:  There are many of us on this panel who agree with you, Madam Vice‑Chair.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2289     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Ever since we started chatting, we've talked about youth and it's everywhere in your application.  Only older people think of 44 as youth.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2290     What is your core target audience?  Even in that study, we have, on page 4, 13 to 17, 18 to 24, 25 to 34, and 35 to 44, looking at a result of listeners.  What is going to be your core audience?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2291     MR. SKI:  The core audience essentially is 13 to 34.  We see that as youth and young adults.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2292     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So 13 to 34.  It doesn't mean you're not going to get some beyond, but that will be more your target.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2293     How does that make your study meaningful since it introduces 506 residents of Vancouver between the ages of 13 and 44?  How do you measure demand for this type of music and also the value to be ascribed to the fact that they don't feel served by the radio stations in the market at the moment?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2294     MR. SKI:  It might be prudent to understand the type of radio station this is, since it's not essentially a mainstream format or a mainstream station.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2295     Most mainstream radio stations have a fairly large core audience.  We call those people P‑1s or primary listeners.  This radio station, being more of a niche format, has a much smaller P‑1 or a much smaller core audience.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2296     Having said that, this type of radio station can be the second, third, or fourth choice for people.  So the peripheral listening, the listening that goes beyond the core listening, is much larger to a station of this nature than it would be to a station that's much more mainstream, that needs to live off of a larger core.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2297     I think, when we asked people about this particular type of station in the audience research, I think almost 80 percent said there wasn't a radio station of this type within the city.  So we were quite enthused by that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2298     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, somewhere else you say as well that in your view, youth has abandoned mainstream radio.  But if we look at the results of the recent BBMs, Fall '04, there are stations in Vancouver offering formats that are appealing to youth and get very, very good shares between the 12 and 24 and also the 25‑34.  For example, CFBT, a standards station, CKZZ and CFOX, they rank very high in Vancouver and they have formats that appeal to young people from the BBM results.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2299     So how do you explain this conclusion that the young people in Vancouver are not served?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2300     MR. SKI:  I'll let our research director, Kerry French, comment on that.  But in a market the size of Vancouver, the fact that only three radio stations are responsible for approximately ‑‑ and I don't have the numbers you have in front of you ‑‑ but possibly 50 percent of the listeners actually shows that there's not much competition for younger people.  It shows the reverse.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2301     Kerry may want to comment on youth and the fact that, as she mentioned earlier, tuning in this particular market, in the Vancouver market, is down by about three hours for youth and young adults.  Even though they're still listening to some of the radio stations, certainly, tuning is on the decline.  It's that way across Canada; that's not just in Vancouver.  We just happen to see this particular format as a way to bring youth and young adults back to the radio band.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2302     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  At page 3 of demand research, it's 13 to 44, it's 50 percent of 13 to 44 is served by four radio stations.  But I was looking at the ratings for the younger audiences that will be your core market, and standard stations format, and CFOX and CFBT have formats that obviously get shares among the 12 to 34.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2303     MS FRENCH:  Madam Vice‑Chair, if I can just try and frame that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2304     We say that youth are abandoning radio.  They're not totally abandoning it.  What's happening is, generally, listening to radio across the country overall is maintaining the same level and has been for many years.  It's this one group of individuals, generally under 34, who are tuning less.  The tuning curve is going downhill.  This has been happening over a period of about 10 years.  But over the past couple of years, if we go back to fall 2001, the average number of hours spent with radio per week in this demo has gone down 3 hours.  That's a significant drop.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2305     The three stations that you mentioned that do target this demo, yes, they're getting decent shares, but the share is of a declining pie.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2306     We believe that one of the reasons the decline is happening is that we, as broadcasters, aren't serving them properly, and particularly the group that we're targeted with PlanetRadio, the young multiculturals.  We see, as Roma mentioned before, they're consuming media on multiple platforms.  They're finding news, information, and music through the internet.  What we need to do as broadcasters is to stop that decline and try and bring those hours back up, and the only way we can do that is to offer them something innovative, something that they're searching for out there that they're not finding on radio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2307     MR. SKI:  We might ask two members of our advisory committee to maybe comment on that too, Madam Vice‑Chair.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2308     MR. WONG:  Hi.  My name is Tom Wong, and I've been working with many community organizations providing community programming for Asian Heritage Month, the Dragon Boat Festival, the Vancouver Public Library, Word on the Street ‑‑ they're searching for how to grab the youth.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2309     What we find is, everybody is looking for ways to express our own ethnic cultures.  So we search on the internet for that.  A lot of it goes word by mouth, but we don't find it on mainstream radio.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2310     For myself growing up, listening to mainstream radio, we all wanted to be rock singers or whatever else.  But part of it is, we didn't find people representing our own ethnic cultures.  We're finding that more and more now.  Kid Koala Kiran Aluwahlia ‑‑ we find our ethnic voice out in song but we can't find it on radio very often.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2311     So I think what PlanetRadio is proposing really touches us, and it's been great meeting Ndidi Cascade here, because she's involved with Black History Month, and we're finding all these similarities of expressing our identity, the quest for Canada's youth to find that identity, that sense of belonging, we find also in other communities, that they've gone through the struggles, they go through the same issues, and we find that our communication is through the English language.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2312     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You have also filed some market research.  At page 12 it says that:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2313     "Based on tuning assumption, CHUM has projected the advertising revenues for the new station."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2314     And your tuning assumptions were filed as an attachment to the deficiency letter, and it projects, in year 1, a 3 percent share, and in your seventh, 4 percent share.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2315     Now, we've had this discussion with another applicant earlier.  What are these market hours?  What do they represent?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2316     I have in year one 3,451,000 market hours and then station hours of a million, and I don't get 3 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2317     MR. SKI:  I'll let Kerry take you through those numbers.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2318     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  What are the hours?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2319     Also, I'd like to ‑‑ we'd like you to address, as you explain how you got your share, what is the audience that you are putting into your tuning assumptions?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2320     In that market research at page 2, it says that it won't be limited to ethnic groups.  Other Vancouver listeners in the 13‑48 group ‑‑ I gather non‑ethnic or mainstream population ‑‑ and at page 12, from this target group, which includes the mainstream, I guess, your tuning shares were calculated.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2321     So how was it calculated and what audience, as between ethnic and non‑ethnic, was put into those hours?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2322     MS FRENCH:  Madam Vice‑Chair, if I can first explain the numbers, the projected numbers that we came up with were based on the Spring 2004 BBM numbers, and we looked at the total hours of tuning in the market at ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2323     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Hours of tuning in the Vancouver radio ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2324     MS FRENCH:  Yes, Vancouver CMA as 34 million.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2325     We looked at this from a couple of perspectives.  The total tuning that we expect in our first year is about a million hours, which translates to 3 percent of the total radio tuning to any radio station in Vancouver.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2326     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So a million station hours.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2327     MS FRENCH:  Yes.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2328     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Have you an idea of how that will break down between ethnic and mainstream?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2329     MS FRENCH:  We fully expect, although there isn't an actual way to quantify this totally, but we expect it'll be about 60/40:  60 from the multicultural communities and 40 percent from non‑visible minorities.  We project that from our experience and also from the available pool of listeners.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2330     As you mention, our economic report, it states that 39 percent of Vancouver's population 15 to 44 ‑‑ and we use that 44, very simply, because it's a Stats Can break.  They don't break that at 34.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2331     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  So when you talk about 60 ethnic, 40 mainstream, how does that work with your market research at page 1, the third paragraph, where it states:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2332     "A station that would be aimed at people of diverse ethnic origins."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2333     So that aim would be 60 percent.  The other 40, it would also be aimed at the mainstream.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2334     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, Kerry will get through some of the precision, but there's two things I just want to point out.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2335     First of all, this is a top‑down piece of research, and then we did our own bottom‑up research that was used for our specific financials.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2336     The point that we're trying to say here and that reflects in that 60/40 split is, in our target demographic, they represent Aboriginal and ethnic Vancouverites, about 39 percent of that demographic in Vancouver.  So when we look at the format that we're proposing, we will, in a sense, overrepresent that make‑up, but we acknowledge that, by virtue of the whole format ‑‑ and we think it's a good thing ‑‑ that non‑Aboriginal, non‑ethnic Vancouverites in that younger adult‑youth demo will also find it interesting.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2337     So our sense, and it's hard to be precise, is that's how you end up with that 60/40 split.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2338     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, let's look at the sources of your expected revenues.  You have, in answer to a deficiency question at page 4 of your response, put down the sources of your revenues, a percentage expected.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2339     What are the other radio stations that you expect to draw 20 percent of your revenue from?  Are they the ones that I suggested were aimed at youth?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2340     MR. SKI:  They are partially, Madam Vice‑Chair, but when we did our calculations ‑‑ and Kerry can provide you with more detail on that ‑‑ I think that, since we expected less than maybe 5 percent of the tuning, that 5 percent of the dollars might come from those particular radio stations; but, again, because we think that this will be, as we mentioned earlier, a second, third, or fourth choice of people who are listening to the radio, that's why we don't see much of an impact on those radio stations.  On any one of them, I think the maximum, according to our estimates, would be about 5 percent.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2341     Kerry may want to ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2342     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Five percent of any one ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2343     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2344     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ of your expected revenues in your projections would come from one station?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2345     MR. SKI:  Correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2346     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  The multicultural media, 10 percent, what is that?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2347     MS FRENCH:  I think, Madam Vice‑Chair, the current available choices to reach these visible minority youth, it's hard to target them specifically because most of the ethnic media have a wider demographic, so it becomes very expensive and difficult to really zone in on the core of the audience that we're going to attract.  So I think there will be cases where people who would normally advertise on whatever ethnic media they choose to in this market would look at us as an addition to what they do.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2348     So in both cases, in the cases of the radio stations and the other ethnic media, we wouldn't necessarily take advertisers totally away of them.  We would become part of their advertising mix.  So we would be taking part of the pie.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2349     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, I think we have a ‑‑ at least I have a better sense of what the plan will sound like, so it will be all spoken word, but for incidental spoken word, will be in English.  You expect your audience to be 60 percent ethnic and 40 percent mainstream.  When asked if this music would appeal to mainstream English heritage, you very enthusiastically answered "Absolutely."

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2350     So, of course, the question that this raises:  To what extent does this application respond to the call?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2351     Now, the call, as you know, was triggered by an ethnic application, and the response, and you consistently repeat, that it will be, as required by the call:

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2352     " ... radio programming that clearly reflects the diversity of languages ... "

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2353     I have difficulty seeing the extent to which it will reflect the diversity of languages given the very small amount of song selections that will be in languages other than English and French, plus all the spoken world, the interstitial connecting.  Where is the reflection of languages?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2354     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, I will start.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2355     Again, we saw the call as a call for services that reflect diversity, and we took it that by deliberately not making a call for ethnic applications, the Commission invited parties to come up with different ways of reflecting that diversity.  Some of the discussions we've had, including Madam Pennefather's discussion on cross‑cultural programming yesterday, shows that while cross‑cultural English‑language programming that targets different cultural groups may have public policy value, it doesn't fall within the definition of ethnic programming or the ethnic broadcasting policy.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2356     What we took from this call, however, is that you acknowledge that there are other ways of doing it, by serving the Aboriginal community, for example, or different communities, and the three‑part test, if you will, of reflecting the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality, was the way we looked at it.  We looked at it as a three‑part test.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2357     In terms of reflecting the diversity of languages, we think that 20 percent minimum commitment in our music is a very significant commitment because, again, given that our target audience is a very sophisticated, younger audience, and we're trying to reach them through the universal language of music, that that was the right level and that showed clear response to that need for diversity of languages.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2358     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It must be the universal language of music, because your Category 2 music is going to be 75 percent of 96 hours of music, and a relatively small proportion of that will be in languages other than music.  So you would have to say that music is language diversity reflection, even if the songs are in English and also the interstitials and all the material in between.  You feel it still fits reflection of languages?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2359     MR. MILLER:  Very much so, and I'd invite some of our other members of the team to reflect on that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2360     MS KHANNA:  We have to remember, when we're looking at first‑generation youth around the world, they often are singing in English, even though the music is garnering its influences from their home culture.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2361     I'll give you an example of a band out of the U.K. called Cornershop, which a lot of young people will be very familiar with because they're a fantastically talented group.  They have traditional sitars in their music, tabla music.  The idea of being named Cornershop is reflective of the experiences of South Asian youth living in the U.K., yet everything they sing is sung in English.  They use quarter‑tone scale in some of their singing, which is a South Asian influence but, again, the actual words that they're singing are actually in English.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2362     So that's the type of music that may make up some of the English‑language programming.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2363     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  All the other applications we have before us for this frequency are specialty licences, specialty applications, and they are ethnic.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2364     How easy would it be for an experienced broadcaster like CHUM to morph this into an absolutely mainstream radio station that is not that different from the urban dance type of application that we have heard in the last few years?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2365     MR. SKI:  I think I'll start, Madam Vice‑Chair, by saying, as we mentioned, we struggled with this a little bit when we were putting together the application, just because ‑‑

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2366     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So did I.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2367     MR. SKI:  Well, let me see if I can help.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2368     When we looked again at the sub‑categories, world beat and international, sub‑category 33, and I touched on this earlier, we just felt that we couldn't put a contemporary radio station on the air that reached youth and young adults given the descriptors of the type of music that we would have to play in order to do that, whereas the jazz sub‑category is quite different.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2369     What we thought we would do, and since this particular format is unknown and quite different, although it's a very exciting new format, we think, that will end up in probably several markets across the country, we wanted to give some comfort and so we proposed conditions of licence that would make it necessary for us to stay in that particular format.  One is 45 percent of the music.  We'll start with that.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2370     Forty‑five percent of our music is coming from outside of North America; secondly, 20 percent of the music will be in a language other than English or French; and 35 percent of the music will be Canadian, and half of that will be uncharted.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2371     If you take a look at the music that's going to be played from outside of North America, and essentially that would be music that's not produced and recorded in the U.S., the remaining amount, I believe, is about 20 percent.  It's pretty difficult to mount a radio station or to put a radio station on the air where 20 percent of the music is from the United States, whereas, on the other hand, most of the mainstream radio stations, I would guess ‑‑ and I know we've done a little bit of an analysis ‑‑ but 95 percent of the music that they play would be from the U.S.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2372     So there's quite a difference between 95 percent, 90‑95 percent, and that remaining 20 percent if, in fact, it was all from the U.S.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2373     I think Rob has some other figures that he calculated also.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2374     MR. MILLER:  Just to give the Commission some framework, the current Billboard Chart, dated February 26, the Hot Hundred Singles Chart, not one song originating from outside of North America in the top 40.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2375     When we expand it to the entire hundred songs on the chart, only two artists are from outside of North America, and both are rock artists.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2376     In Canada, we looked at the Canadian Music Network Chart for the top 40 playlists, dated also the week of February 26 ‑‑ my apologies, dated the week of February 13th ‑‑ that issue wasn't out yet.  Of the top 40 songs, only one song originated from outside North America.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2377     As a final illustration, we took a look at the Top 40 station here in Vancouver, CFBT, and we looked at the playlist of the top 40 spins and found not one song in the top 40 spins of that radio station was from a song that originated from outside North America.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2378     I think that's important to illustrate because there's a notion that on the top 40 charts there's a mix of the most popular music from around the world.  But because of the huge influence of American culture we're not seeing that diversity of this music that is, you know, getting airplay and garnering large audiences all over the world, it isn't really being played.  And these artists, when they do come to markets like Vancouver or markets like Toronto, they'll play G.M. Place or the Air Canada Centre, and it will be under the radar of the mainstream media, yet these artists sell out these huge arena shows with no airplay, yet a fan base exists under the radar.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2379     These are the cultural navigators we want to reach.  These are the people we want to repatriate to our medium.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2380     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  My last question is, the commitments you were prepared to accept as conditions of licence is somewhat different from what is in the application.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2381     Would you take your response in the deficiency letter at page 7, and then we'll go over them to make sure we understand what today's commitments are.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2382     At the bottom of page 7.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2383     "To ensure we achieve what we are proposing, we will also commit to the following conditions of licence:"

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2384     So 45 percent of musical selections will come from outside North America.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2385     MR. SKI:  That's correct.  I should mention, these are all minimums.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2386     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And 35 percent of musical selections will be Canadian, and 50 percent of those songs.  So you have now said 35 percent Canadian overall, so we should remove the word "songs"; correct?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2387     MR. SKI:  Correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2388     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thirty‑five percent of all musical selections will be Canadian?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2389     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2390     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  So that will cover 2 and 3.  For that purpose, we remove "songs," because some of the music won't be.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2391     And then 50 percent of the songs will be uncharted?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2392     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2393     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  And 20 percent of all musical selections will be in languages other than English and French?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2394     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2395     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  That will cover Category 3, and pop music as well, despite the concern, Mr. Miller, you have, that if it's in English, then it's not Category 3, right?  So what exactly is this?  Is this of all musical selection?

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2396     MR. MILLER:  It is 20 percent of all musical selections, but in reality, that 20 percent would probably come out of the Category 3 selections.

SEQ 1_0 \* Arabic \n2397     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Category 3, because the others will be pop, in Category 2.