ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Gatineau (Québec) - 2004-12-08

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Best Western Cartier Best Western Cartier

Champlain A & B Room Pièce Champlain A et B

131 Laurier Avenue 131, rue Laurier

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

December 8, 2004 Le 8 décembre 2004


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription



Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseillier


Pierre Lebel Secretary / Secrétaire

James Wilson Legal Counsel /

Valérie Dionne Conseillers juridiques

Steve Parker Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience


Conference Centre Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

December 8, 2004 Le 8 décembre 2004





Jennifer Snellgrove 1442 / 8181

The Gwayumba Family 1449 / 8218

Michael Roy Entertainment 1458 / 8276

Jill Peck 1462 / 8296

Cynthia Hartlin 1466 / 8312

Ontario Council of Folk Festivals 1474 / 8344

Suzie Vinnick 1483 / 8397

Angelo Filoso 1508 / 8565

Pierre Gravel 1522 / 8644

Norm Wright and Brian Perkin 1528 / 8688



Radio Nord Communications Inc. 1541 / 8766

CKMW Radio Ltd. 1547 / 8793

John Wright and Douglas Kirk 1567 / 8915

Global Communications Ltd. 1572 / 8944

Gatineau, Quebec/Gatineau (Québec)

--- Upon resuming on Wednesday, December 8, 2004

at 0901 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 8

décembre 2004 à 0857

8164 THE CHAIRPERSON: À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. Order, please.

8165 Mr. Secretary, s'il vous plaît.

8166 MR. SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8167 For the record, I would like to indicate that intervenors number 14 and 19 have indicated they will not be appearing. So those interventions will remain on the public file as not appearing.

8168 Madam Chair, not too many of the remaining appearing intervenors did report in. So what I will do is I will run through the list as per the agenda order and we will hear those that are in attendance.

8169 So the first appearing interventions should be presented by the Gyayumba Family.

--- Pause

8170 THE SECRETARY: Madam Chair, not seeing anybody getting up, I will now call Jill Peck.

8171 Not seeing anybody, Madam Chair, I will now call Cynthia Hartland.

8172 Next appearing intervenor should be Cynthia Habinske.

8173 Next appearing intervenor should be Stephen Ostep.

8174 Next name is Terry O'Neal.

8175 Jennifer Snellgrove.

8176 Good. We got one, Madam Chair.

--- Laughter / Rires

8177 MS SNELLGROVE: Stand right here?

8178 MR. SECRETARY: No, at the table with the microphone.

--- Pause

8179 MR. SECRETARY: Turn your microphone on.

8180 You may proceed with your presentation.


8181 MS SNELLGROVE: Okay. We will try that again. There we go.

8182 Well, thank you very much. I wanted to say thank you to the Board here for listening to what I have to say.

8183 My name is Jennifer Snellgrove and I am an intervenor for the Inspo -- the Christian talk radio station.

8184 I just wanted to say that when I first moved to Ottawa several years ago, I was very encouraged to find that there was a Christian radio station and I started listening to it and have been listening to it my whole time that I have lived here.

8185 There are some great things that are happening on that station. I know that even at times as I have been driving, and especially driving downtown with the one-way streets and getting stressed out with the traffic, oftentimes a song has come on or something that one of the announcers has said that has really spoken to kind of help me calm down and stuff. So it's been really encouraging for me in that way.

8186 My job that I have currently is working with youth in a church setting, and it has also been encouraging for me to be able to share that music with them. A lot of the kids listen to the radio station at night when they are doing their homework and it's encouraging that they have this kind of music that they can turn to, they can listen to, that has the moral values that we all share and that I want to pass onto these kids.

8187 This one example was during Valentine's Day week. The radio station did a purity week where they encouraged the youth to remain abstinent before marriage. To contrast, one of the stations here in Ottawa had a contest to win a free divorce. This station is currently now offering a free breast job, boob job, for Christmas. So there is definitely a difference in what is contributed by that station.

8188 One of the other neat things that the youth are able to do on this station is to come into the radio station and to spend a night with one of the deejays. The youth group can go in and they can hang out for a couple of hours. They can make a lot of noise. They can scream and be crazy into the microphone and listen to the music that they want to listen to that is a little bit harder, that has got a little bit more edge to it, which is great. It's what the youth need.

8189 There is also another demographic in the community, and they don't like the louder music as much. There is definitely a need for an outlet for a different kind of music, more inspiration, kind of hymn music, and the spoken word. When I was living in the United States there was many, many different programs that were run that had teachers that would come on and give different viewpoints, and I really appreciate that. I know that other people would also like a station like that. It wouldn't go over so well with, you know, the youth demographic that are listening to the louder music. So I really see that there is a need and a market for both kinds of stations.

8190 I was very happy to know that many years ago the CRTC decided to grant a licence for the Christian radio station and that is wonderful. I guess I am just asking now that you would take the next step and offer us another one for the inspirational and talk.

8191 Thank you.

8192 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Snellgrove, and welcome.

8193 Commissioner Langford.


8195 I guess the question that I would ask you, and I put to some of the other intervenors who have come to support the Christian application, considering the scarcity of frequencies that there are -- it's just a fact of physics. There is just not that much room for the airwaves to move around in, so everybody can't have a radio station -- is there no way that the present Christian radio station couldn't rejig some of its programming, in your view, to appeal to both the demographics? I understand that it would be a bit of a strain, but if you take the example of television stations, they have programming in the morning for young people and the afternoon, I guess, they do the Young and Restless with less young people, more restless, and they mix it up so that you try to get something for everybody. There are not many cities or a few major cities, but most of Canada still gets one of each, one CTV, one Global, one CBC, that sort of thing.

8196 Is there no way that the present Christian radio station in your view couldn't somehow fit in both demographics, both needs?

8197 MS SNELLGROVE: Well, I think that's currently what they are trying to do, and I think that in the process they lose a lot of both markets, both demographics. One of the popular TV -- not TV, sorry -- radio programs that comes on now that is very popular with some of the older demographics comes on right when the kids are -- just after dinner and it is the popular time spot for both adults and for children who want to listen to this program. So there is kind of a limited space in terms of that.

8198 But also, if you look at just the wide range of demographics within the Christian circle -- I mean, we are not just talking about there is one kind of music that youth listen to and then there is talk program that adults listen to. There is a wide variety even within the musical realm that would be challenging just for one station to appeal already just to the musical aspects of R&B, rap, soft rock, hard rock. Just within that sphere alone there is such a wide variety that that would be a challenge for one station alone.

8199 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where do you go -- I mean, do you listen to this Christian radio station exclusively, or do you listen to some of the other stations?

8200 MS SNELLGROVE: No, I don't listen to it exclusively. Part of my responsibilities, I feel, as a youth pastor is to know what else is out there. So I consciously make a decision to listen to other stations as well. But also, I don't find myself -- I don't find that I -- I want to listen to a lot of the stuff, not a lot but some of the stuff that is on.

8201 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are you offended by a lot of it or just some of it, like 10 per cent, 20 per cent? Have you any notion?

8202 MS SNELLGROVE: Sorry, offended by the other content?

8203 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: By the other stations?

8204 MS SNELLGROVE: I would find that for the most part I am slightly offended by probably about 25 to 30 per cent, I would say. It depends on what station, obviously. Even this morning, coming into work listening to the morning drives, a lot of the comedy, a lot of the jokes are off colour. They are not terribly offensive but if it is something that is repeated day after day.

8205 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And what about the older demographic? Where are they going, CBC or something like that for a safe haven?

8206 MS SNELLGROVE: Some of them are going to the CBC. I would say that a lot of them listen to the other radio stations or listen less frequently, or they turn to buying music and listening on their CDs.

8207 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, thank you very much.

8208 Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

8209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8210 And we thank you for coming to participate despite the less than attractive weather.

8211 MS SNELLGROVE: No problem. Thank you.

8212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8213 MR. SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8214 I am advised that the Gyayumba Family is here so I will ask them to present their intervention at this time.

8215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, welcome.


8217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready.


8218 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Do we have to press the mike?

8219 Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear here. We have made it and we are very glad to be given an opportunity.

8220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. It is better if you press one at a time because eventually we will get interference. Thank you.

8221 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Yes, thank you very much. I am Washington Gyayumba. I am the dad and here is Faith Gyayuma -- is my first born daughter. She is 16 and he is 15. He is my second born son. He is Emmanuel and here is Elijah and he is going 12.

8222 Thank you very much. My wife couldn't make it today. She had to be at work, but we are here representing the family.

8223 The first thing I want to say is that CHRI has been a very, very important radio station in our lives. We have been in Ottawa for about five years. We used to be in Saskatchewan and since we came here it has been an inspiration. It's a family radio. You know you can turn it on and nothing, no language on that radio station is going to be embarrassing for the whole family to listen to. So when we sit there as a family we listen to this radio station and we are very happy with what they play and what they say and the comments they give.

8224 The only problem we have is that at my age -- I am going 40-45 -- I want to hear more of the preaching. I want to hear more of the Word. I want to hear more of the Bible stuff, and my kids are teenagers and they want to hear more of the new types of music and there isn't just enough time on air for that to be the case.

8225 So we would like an alternative radio station that would give us the type of music they want or that will be devoted to more of the preaching of the Word.

8226 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8227 Commissioner Langford.

8228 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It certainly seems to be my morning so far.

8229 Where did you live in Saskatchewan, if I may ask?

8230 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: When we were in Saskatchewan we lived in Saskatoon.

8231 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I lived a couple of years in Saskatoon. A nice place.

8232 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Yes, very beautiful.

8233 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And do they have a Christian radio station there? I am afraid I don't remember.

8234 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: No, they did not have a Christian radio station there, but they had a station that had a lot of Christian content on it. It came from Moose Jaw, I think, CJWW -- I think that was the -- 570. It is a short-wave radio station that was stationed somewhere in the Moose Jaw area that in the evenings would play some Christian music and they had a lot of preachers coming on in the evening. So that was the one that we listened to.

8235 I don't remember if some of the FM radio stations had some Christian content on Sunday. There might have been one or so that had some Christian content on Sunday.

8236 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And do you listen to any other stations?

8237 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Yes, I do listen to other stations too.

8238 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So may I ask what kind of preference? Would it be CBC, for example, for news or current affairs or would it be --


8240 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- opera on Saturday or something?

8241 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Yes, for news I listen to CBC when I want to get some news. Six o'clock news in the evening I listen to CBC and in the morning for the weather reports and how the road conditions are and everything else, I do turn to another radio station to get the morning report on that one. But otherwise, after that, I just go back to CHRI.

8242 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So which one of you kids is feeling brave? Who is the bravest? All right. I am brave too. I like being brave.

--- Laughter / Rires

8243 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What else do you listen to except for CHRI when Dad is not at home? What stations do you put on? I won't tell him. It's just going to be between you and me. No one else will know.

--- Laughter / Rires

8244 MR. EMMANUEL GWAYUMBA: I don't know. I don't really listen to other stations. Usually, I just turn on CHRI. If there is like some music that I am not feeling, I don't like, I will just maybe put on a CD or something and listen to that. But other than that I don't usually listen to anything else.

8245 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And do you listen on the internet? Do you have the internet at home?

8246 MR. EMMANUEL GWAYUMBA: Yes. Yes, sometimes I do listen on the internet, yes.

8247 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You can get stations from all over on that, right?



8250 MR. EMMANUEL GWAYUMBA: I have never actually found any that are Christian radio stations yet.

8251 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No? What about your favourite type of music? We have lots in here now looking for applications to provide dance and hip hop and alternative rock.


8253 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Where should we go?

8254 MR. EMMANUEL GWAYUMBA: I like hip hop and I would like it if CHRI actually played that more because they do have a program called "The Saturday Night Town Fix". It's on like Saturday nights from 7:00 to 11:00 or something. That's good and I like that, but I think it would be better if it played more just everyday. It doesn't have to be for hours but just a bit everyday that would be nice.

8255 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Let's move on. How about your sister? What should we licence here? Give us a hint. They are all wanting to go to your demographic. They are all trying to do music for people your age, but they have to come to old geezers like us for their licences, you see.

--- Laughter / Rires

8256 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe we should get you up here.

8257 What is best for Ottawa, alternative rock, hip hop, dance, smooth jazz? Where should we go?

8258 MS FAITH GWAYUMBA: Well, me personally, I like a range of music. I like punk. But it has to be like young people's music, because I know the adults that go to our church or the adult Christian community they like more traditional music because that was their fashion music in like the fifties or whenever they were born in.

--- Laughter / Rires

8259 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Go easy now. I remember the fifties.

8260 MS FAITH GWAYUMBA: And that was what they liked and that was, you know, when they hear that music come on it brings them back to when they were groovy and stuff. So that's why we would like --

8261 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When our knees used to work and things like that.

--- Laughter / Rires

8262 MS FAITH GWAYUMBA: And that's why we should have two radio stations so that they can listen to their traditional music and feel the music, and then we can listen to our hip hop, our alternative music. Even waking up to that kind of music in the morning it feels good because you are awake. You are not like waiting for it come on in the afternoon because some of us have homework and we can't listen to it late, late in the evening. We have to get to bed and get to school and wake up. So we would like some of that music to be like in the morning or maybe late afternoon when we come home from school so we can listen to that kind of music, because out there in the other world they have music for -- like HOT 89.9, their music starts in the morning and it goes throughout the whole day, whereas ours starts at like 8:00 or 7:00 and it goes to like 11:00. So we don't have that kind of range of music the whole day.

8263 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Little brother, you are going to get brave. You are actually coming on 12, and 12 is where some of these people are aiming for, 12 to 24.

8264 So what is your message? What kind of music do you want?

8265 MR. ELIJAH GWAYUMBA: Well, I would like some kind of rap and hip hop like my brother, because that's the kind of music I enjoy. Sometimes, I like traditional music. Like around Christmas I like traditional music. But usually when I wake up there is usually kind of music for people over the age of 12 to 24. So like my sister said, we don't get enough time to actually listen to it.

8266 So I think that we should get the music when we come home, like late in the afternoon like my sister said.

8267 The thing they have from 12:00 to 1:00 it's like a requesting period. Most of the kids are at school so they don't get to request the songs. I think maybe if they put it a little bit later that would be good because then we could hear all the songs we wanted when we come home from school.

8268 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think they are taking notes back there.

8269 So those are my questions. Thanks very much,.

8270 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming. I think all of you could be good disc jockeys.

--- Laughter / Rires

8271 MR. WASHINGTON GWAYUMBA: Thank you very much.

8272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8273 Mr. Secretary, please.

8274 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. The next appearing intervention should be presented by Janice Johnston. It does not appear that she is in attendance, Madam Chair.

8275 The next intervention should be presented by the Canadian Independent Record Producers Association and I do believe that Mr. Brian Chater had to return to Toronto. So, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. Michael Roy.


8276 MR. ROY: Good afternoon, Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, Commission staff, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Michael Roy, as President of Michael Roy Entertainment Group. I believe the application the application by CKMW Radio for The Jewel is one that should be seriously considered as a vital addition to the Ottawa-Gatineau radio environment.

8277 Michael Roy Entertainment is both a management company and an organization offering various services to producers, artists, publishers and musicians. Our company has contributed to the success of Canadian artists like Joanne Blouin, Ginnette Renaud, the Boogie Wonder Band, Richard Abel, and has worked with Rock Voisine's management team and many others over the past 10 years.

8278 Our company managed to obtain worldwide licenses to the popular children's series Snoopy's Classics On Toys, a Canadian concept as an exclusive agency and business affairs representative for the series worldwide. We also acted as a consultant in English theatre for the television series featuring Paul McCartney's Musical Ways and an album on Paul McCartney licensed worldwide with classics.

8279 Michael Roy Entertainment also collaborated on various projects with world renowned composer, Michel Legrande. Michael Roy Entertainment also negotiated rights and contracts for various contributors, artists, tradesmen, working in the recording entertainment multimedia and television industry. Our client list includes Universal Music Publishing Canada, Dreamtime Entertainment Japan, JVC Japan, Reader's Digest World Services, debt distribution in Canada, just to name a few.

8280 Our management company is currently handling the careers of Canadian superstar instrumentalist pianist Richard Abel. And also, we are the business affairs representative for Mr. Abel that appeared in front of you yesterday and I believe performed a few notes on his piano a few days ago.

8281 CKMW Radio and CKDX-FM, also called Foxy, operating an easy listening format in a Toronto CMA has been invaluable to the success of the artists we represent and promote. The support is complete and begins when one first walks in the door to the on-air support and airplay, to the hiring and promotion of our artists for concert events. This may not seem much for some people, but to my industry it is a lifeline that has all but disappeared in this country. With the potential for the ownership of a new station in the Ottawa area, I know our ability to be heard in Ontario will greatly enhance our efforts to the benefit of our industry and artists.

8282 A radio station working with the instrumental music industry will be of great benefit to the Canadian radio listeners and to the Canadian musicians. The Jewel will offer a true easy listening format. Even though some other applicants also label themselves as easy listening, but not if you look at them closely. If you look at them closely.. and I can see one offers no instrumental music. The two other applicants propose a slight offering of jazz and smooth jazz instrumentals mixed with their vocals.

8283 As you know, smooth jazz stations across the country are playing the genre. While I appreciate and encourage Canadian music of all genres, The Jewel proposal with its wider variety of instrumentals is by far more encompassing and inclusive. The difference between existing and proposed stations and The Jewel is that because of their narrow scope they will never play our artists or the likes of Jacques Duguay, André Gagnon, Richard Abel, Lorena McKennitt and many more. The Jewel will play our artists and all others, including some jazz and smooth jazz.

8284 Furthermore, The Jewel's commitment to play a 35 per cent ratio of instrumentals to vocal is by far the biggest offering at this hearing and they propose to play a larger selection of new music. CKMW's Canadian talent initiatives are innovative, substantial and will be of great and long-term benefit to the system as a whole.

8285 From the long overdue and much needed catalogue of Canadian instrumental artists to the production of the instrumental CD, to the annual concert, which will include showcasing instrumental artists, this multimillion dollar investment is tremendous and has not been offered by any other applicant at this hearing. I strongly encourage the Commission to help by supporting the instrumental music genre in our country by giving it a place on our radio dial. The proposal by The Jewel is not a chance we often get.

8286 Thank you for hearing my views. If you have any questions, I would be please to answer them.

8287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Roy. Commissioner Williams.

8288 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Roy, your presentation has been very thorough. I don't have any questions. Thank you for coming.

8289 MR. ROY: Thank you.

8290 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We thank you for your participation.

8291 MR. ROY: I thank you.

8292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8293 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am advised that some of the earlier interveners have now arrived. So, I will now call Jill Peck.

8294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

8295 THE SECRETARY: You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.


8296 MS PECK: Good morning everyone. My name is Jill Peck and I am a wife and mother. I have no title other than that. I am here today to tell you why I think it is important that we have a second radio station with Christian content in our area.

8297 The first thing that comes to my mind is when you go to the United States almost every second station is Christian content. I think that is... particularly in the south, there are a lot of really Christian-based content radio stations on the airwaves. I think that that speaks just a volume of why it is important. In our country we have.. if our capital is setting the example for more Christian content on the airwaves, I think that is brilliant, and it is happening all over Canada. There is more and more Christian radio stations popping up. But, if we have two in our city, I think that sets a wonderful example.

8298 But my next thought is why do we want Christian content on the radio? Well, first of all, we need Christian content for ourselves. I'm a fairly new Christian but, you know, it feeds us as Christians, but it is not just that, it is that we, as a seeker, if you want to know more about the gospel, if you want to know more about living in a Christian way and those kinds of things, it is a perfect way of being able to get that information. As a Christian, when you say your neighbour who is having problems parenting their child, you know, why don't you tune in and listen to Focus on the Family it is going to be on this topic that they happen to be having a problem with or, you know, they are having teenager issues and, you know, there is going to be something on the radio about that, why don't you listen, and it gets them hooked. So, in a way, a lot of people that listen to Christian radio for the first time and find out hey, you know, there is some good information on here and it leads to other things.

8299 I think that in the world in general right now there is a lot of people seeking answers to questions about why they are here. One of the things that happens is The Purpose-Driven Life.. I don't know if you people have heard about that book, but I am sure you have because it sold about three billion copies around the world. It is breaking records on the New York Times Best Seller list and it is a book that people that are not Christians are buying and finding out about the gospel. It is for the same reason why we need to have things on the radio for people that are seeking. So, when you have a station that is going to have more biblical teaching and more evangelical type content, as in our second station that we are hoping to have, I think that it is going to be a fantastic tool to give people some answers.

8300 I was asked to come. One of the reasons why I was asked was because I sit on the fence. I love CHRI, I listen to the music and I have an eight year old who just won't listen to anything else but that. I've listened to other radio stations and I get bombarded with just all kinds of sexual innuendoes and things I just don't want to listen to, so I change it back to CHRI. Now, if there were more teachings.. biblical teachings, 100 Huntley Street radio edition, things like that, I would be listening to it even more often, switching back and forth.

8301 I think that is really all I want to say. I think having a second station with more teachings would be just a fantastic addition to what we have here in the capital and setting an example for the rest of Canada and showing the States that we can do what they do.

8302 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I have a title for you. You can be a household engineer.

8303 MS PECK: Okay, I am a household engineer.

8304 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

8305 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Just one question. You were talking a lot about teaching. Is it possible to find teaching elsewhere than on the radio dial?

8306 MS PECK: Absolutely. But, I don't sit in front of the television very often. You know, we are busy people.. everybody is busy people, we are on the go all the time. Listening to the radio in your car is one of the things that happens a lot. I just think it is a good tool. A lot of times people.. you can give them books, you can tell them there is a really good resource here, you should look at that. Well, they won't sit down.. they don't have the time or they don't have the inclination to read and so I think the radio is just a really easy tool to use to teach people.

8307 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much. I don't have any other questions.

8308 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Peck, for your participation.

8309 MS PECK: Okay, thank you.

8310 THE CHAIRPERSON: I hope you keep your job. Mr. Secretary, please.

8311 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. The next appearing intervention will be presented by Cynthia Hartlin.


8312 MS CYNTHIA HARTLIN: Hi, I am here with my mom today because we both have some things we would like to say. I think, with my mother leading, I will finish up if that is okay.

8313 MS WANDA HARTLIN: Hello, I am Wanda Hartlin and I want to thank you for this opportunity to speak before the Commission.

8314 About seven and a half years ago I was watching the evening news and I saw them saying there is a new Christian radio station starting-up, CHRI, and I had heard rumblings about this from people I knew and I thought well, I think I will tune in and just see what this station is all about.

8315 So, I started listening.. and I love radio, I listen to radio all the time. I was listening to other stations, but I found a lot of the music was about people who were having troubles, broken hearts, broken marriages, broken lives, and sometimes it was actually depressing. So, I started listening to CHRI. You agree?


8317 MS WANDA HARTLIN: I started listening and I found the music very upbeat, inspiring. I started to feel more of the joy of life. There was no abrasiveness in the songs, there wasn't that heavy sexual connotation that you often get in mainstream songs. I find some of the music on mainstream radio actually offensive to women. I guess I am a bit of a feminist. So, I enjoyed that.

8318 When I think back to my youth I know our country, Canada, was founded by pioneers from England and from France and they brought with them our Christian faith. They were the ones that started our churches, that built the hospitals, that started the schools and they put our Christian traditions into our fabric of Canadian life. I mean, it is part of us, it is part of our tradition, part of our custom.

8319 I remember about eight years ago, during the Christmas season, there was only one radio station in Ottawa that played Christmas music and that was only the week before Christmas and, to me, that was a real let down. You know, at the Christmas season you want to hear Christmas songs. I was trying to live the faith that I was raised in and I felt I wasn't getting very much support. You know, not everyone believes what I believe, so I was feeling a little isolated.

8320 Listening to CHRI, I have realized other people feel as I do, believe as I do, I feel supported in my beliefs and I don't feel alone like I used to. Now, I do listen to other stations from time to time. But, as I said, sometimes I find the music abrasive or offensive. I like CHRI. They have a wide variety of entertainment. Not only do they have music, they have radio shows, they have Focus on the Family by Dr. Dobson, Life Jewels by Dr. John Wilke, which is a radio program which centres on an artists, describes part of their life and how they evolved in their musical career. They have Their Days, which explains different faiths and their beliefs. Right now, it would be Hanukah, so there would be a short explanation of why Hanukah is and how it evolved and how it is practiced.

8321 So, I listen to a lot of radio. I listen when I wake-up, I listen while I am getting ready for work, I listen on the way to work, I listen on the way home from work, in the evening and on weekends. Where I work I can't get radio because I am in a basement and I was delighted when I found out I could get CHRI online.

8322 Now, I work for a non-profit organization and we survive on people's personal donations and fundraisers and this is where CHRI has been wonderful, because they have community service announcements every two hours on the half hour for five minutes. They have been a really good support for us. They have promoted our fundraisers, they have promoted our events and I have actually seen an increase because of that. More people are attending our events, more people are supporting our fundraisers. So, it has helped me in my work.

8323 There are some people of my generation who say well CHRI is for a younger audience and that is where this new station, INSPO-FM comes in. It is geared more to middle age and more to seniors and more to people of traditional faith and who don't like the noisy music. And I know also they will have more opportunity for radio shows, talk radio shows and I think this is something that is necessary. We need variety. I have benefited positively from CHRI and I would like this experience to be shared by other people. So, I fully support them in their efforts and their efforts to expand. Thank you.

8324 MS CYNTHIA HARTLIN: Okay, as a younger adult, I also find a need for another radio station. I love CHRI. The questions you have been asking about listening to other stations. I do listen to other stations at times, but it is not as fulfilling as a station like CHRI. I am finding, as my mother said, there is more support, there is more growth in the Christian radio area, the support of our beliefs and our moral system, I find that on CHRI. I listen to it as well, morning, noon and night. I prefer radio over TV, so it is an important part of my life really.

8325 CHRI is an integration for younger Christians, but I think a station like INSPO-FM will fill the gap that is there right now. As we heard with the family up here, I love the rap, I love the rock. One radio station I tend to gravitate towards when I am not listening to CHRI is CFRA and they have some issues that I think INSPO-FM can really get into as well. I know on CFRA sometimes people try to call in their views and they are, you know, cut-off. That is okay, but I think that with INSPO-FM we would have a free voice. We would be able to speak more on issues that are so important today, our morality, our spirituality, the human rights and even sexuality.

8326 There is so much going on right now. On Parliament Hill even there has been things going on that I think if people had more of a voice to state their opinions, they would realize that there are others who believe the same and there are valid points on both sides.

8327 With this Inspo-FM, not only would it attract Christians, I think it would attract many faiths, because we have similar beliefs. The morals are there with everybody. Everybody has a moral and they would like to share that. I think with the positive influence of what Inspo-FM can give us, the positivity will go around even more.

8328 I do find that I am changing stations because of what I hear sometimes on stations like 89.9, which I do like, but the morality just sometimes I have to change the station.

8329 I would love to listen to something similar to CFRA, to CHRI. Really, I wouldn't listen to anything else if we had this new station because it would cover everything and I do feel a need for this.

8330 I just think it would be great to fill in the gap, not only for the older generation but the younger as well, because even my friends and I have discussions on a regular basis, where I work even, we talk about issues like this -- well, things that have been raised in the media lately. There is big discussion on that. Where can we voice these? I think this gives an opportunity for that, as well as the music.

8331 Some of my clients at work as well, they listen to the TV Christian stations, but if there was a radio station like this one I think they would tune in even more and I think it is needed today because CHRI can only go so far and we need something to push us over a little more so we reach everybody, not just the younger generation.

8332 I am very privileged to be able to speak today and I think that's it for now.

8333 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8334 Commissioner Williams?

8335 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mrs. and Ms Hartlin, your support of the proposed Inspo-FM Christian radio station and your reasons why are very clear so I just want to thank you for your presentation this morning.

8336 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ladies Hartlin.

8337 Mr. Secretary, please.

8338 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8339 The next appearing intervention will be presented by the Ontario Council of Folk Festivals, Mr. Erin Benjamin.

8340 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: A funny thing happened on the way to the forum.

--- Laughter / Rires

8341 THE SECRETARY: My apologies, Ms Benjamin.

8342 MS BENJAMIN: That's okay.

8343 THE SECRETARY: You have 10 minutes to make your presentation.


8344 MS BENJAMIN: Thank you.

8345 Dear Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen, my name is Ms Erin Benjamin and I am here to support the CKMW Radio application.

8346 I am the Executive Director of the Ontario Council of Folk Festivals, also known as the OCFF. We are an 18-year-old non-profit membership-based organization and in 2003 we became the largest music industry association in Canada. We represent more than 1,200 members working across the sectors in the folk and roots music industry in Ontario and in other parts of Canada.

8347 A little bit of background on the organization. We are mandated to foster and develop the folk, roots and traditional music industry, which includes artists songwriters, festivals, record labels, distributors, presenters, agents, managers, retailers, organizations and others by providing professional training, access to education and information, as well as advocacy and development at municipal, provincial and federal levels.

8348 We work with both the private sector and government to strengthen and expand our community, as well as our ongoing programs and services.

8349 The word "folk" can be ambiguous, but to us it means all great music, including music categorized as singer/songwriter, folk/pop, traditional, roots, blues, folk jazz, alt country, world music, aboriginal and more.

8350 Our music is varied and eclectic, but our goals are analogous and despite insurmountable evidence commercial radio historically has simply not been able to capitalize on consumer demand for folk.

8351 Madam Chairperson and Commissioners, did you know that $2 million in CD sales are rung up every summer from merchandise tents at folk festivals alone. This is a fact.

8352 Did you also know that more than seven million people are enjoying live and recorded folk and roots music every year?

8353 One reason CD sales are so high is because commercial retail has lacked vision and courage and have declined to stock much of the music fans and listeners who clearly have significant buying power want. There are few places fans can find the music they love other than off the stage or over the internet.

8354 These consumers have big ears too. They know full well that acts like K.D. Lang, Sarah McLachlan, the Bare Naked Ladies, Sarah Harmer and Great Big Sea all broke on folk festival stages in Canada and they are watching to see who is next and loving everything in between.

8355 These consumers enjoy the quality and the variety they can find in folk and roots programming and they pay to access it whether the artist is a superstar or not.

8356 Folk and roots music sales alone prove that there is a market for this kind of non-traditional commercial programming. The fact that listeners are consuming this music in record numbers is only one reason.

8357 As I mentioned, the OCFF provides professional development to its membership. One of our largest initiatives is our annual conference. This is the most significant Canadian industry event for people working in folk and roots music and draws over 650 presenters, artists and professionals from across Canada, the U.S. and Europe.

8358 The OCFF provides relevant, targeted and practical leadership through professional development, workshop, networking and mentoring sessions, official showcases, industry awards and other activities.

8359 But one of the primary goals of our conference is the promotion and development of new and emerging folk and roots artists. Sourcing the necessary funds to produce this event is the largest challenge the OCFF faces every year and I would like this Panel to know that sponsorship support from CKMW Radio will be directed to this conference, making an important and substantial difference to the careers of Canadian artist. This is a crucial and highly necessary investment.

8360 Through the conference we continue our efforts to reinforce and expand relationships within the industry, including those working in commercial radio.

8361 Clearly, we believe that folk and roots music could and should occupy a greater amount of available Canadian airwaves, which is why we are very excited to learn that CKMW radio is working on closing the huge gap on what is hearing -- or, more aptly, what isn't -- on much of radio tody. Their desire to champion our community is impressive.

8362 The fact that they are making a commitment to folk and roots programming in both the weekly schedule and in a dedicated roots show on Saturday afternoons proves that they have a genuine wish to discover and share the music we make. The Ottawa Valley and Ottawa-Gatineau areas are bursting with some of the most important talent in this country.

8363 Coupled with the number of festivals and events in this region, the station will have no shortage of opportunities to work with the local folk and roots community. The OCFF will always be here to do our part to ensure that those community relationships are healthy, valuable and progressive.

8364 I see this station becoming a key player in the dynamic that exists between music makers and music users throughout Ottawa-Gatineau and beyond. A radio station working sympathetically with the roots industry, and on behalf of all of the people who live and work in this part of the province, will be of tremendous benefit to the Canadian listener, the Canadian artist and all of those who work behind the scenes in the industry to ensure that great music can be heard.

8365 Everybody wins. After all, Ottawa-Gatineau has more festivals and outdoor music events per capita than any other city in this country. It is the Nation's Capital. There is no suitable explanation for the lack of diversity in current programming on commercial radio.

8366 We are relieved to know this may change, as it unquestionably should. And it should because it can. The finest folk and roots music in the world is being made right here in Canada.

8367 Much of it lingers on the margins relegated to campus and community programming. The OCFF believes this application will increase the broadcast opportunities for a thriving but under-exposed genre of music.

8368 CKMW Radio Limited's application for a broadcast licence should be supported for these reasons and more.

8369 The OCFF not only endorses this application, it applauds the Evanov Radio Group for having the fortitude and vision to distinguish itself in this way within the context of commercial radio in Canada.

8370 I would like to thank you, Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen, for taking the time and allowing me to address you today and I urge you to help CKMW take commercial radio beyond basic Cancon and genre tokenism. Folk music is our greatest Canadian legacy. We should all have the privilege of knowing what that legacy actually sounds like.

8371 Thank you.

8372 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Benjamin.

8373 Commissioner Pennefather, please.

8374 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

8375 Good morning and thank you for a very thorough intervention. There are just a couple of questions.

8376 MR. BENJAMIN: Sure.

8377 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You just used a term which jumped out at me "genre tokenism".

8378 What did you mean by that? Give us some examples of what you mean.

8379 MR. BENJAMIN: I think that a lot of commercial radio might respond when the folk and roots industry stands up and says "You are not playing enough of our music". "Sure, we play Joni Mitchell and Neil Young, some Sylvia Tyson here and there."

8380 That is what I mean by "genre tokenism", a little dabble of folk music doesn't cut it.

8381 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So that leads me to the only question I had from your intervention that I read, and now listening to you again I think I hear a little bit better what the connection is between folk and roots and the overall style of listening that has been proposed by CKMW in The Jewel proposal, crooners, standards, ballads, love songs, contemporary.

8382 Just can you clarify for me the folk and roots industry in terms of the artists that we are talking about? It didn't appear to me to be part of that overall genre. And let's get beyond tokenism and say to avoid that how inclusive would this proposal be of folk and roots on day-to-day in airplay concept?

8383 MR. BENJAMIN: CKMW, to my understanding, has done a lot of research. They have been investigating and discovering new talent with the help of organizations like mine.

8384 The singer/songwriter genre -- and I think you will meet someone later on who is an artist in our community -- really spans a really wide variety. I alluded to some of the sort of different singer/songwriter world music, roots, folk. There are a lot of ways you can call it.

8385 It seems to me that CKMW is making a real effort to investigate to see who is doing what to include that type of music. Hopefully what they will learn is, by playing more -- I'm guessing that there is going to be a lot of singer/songwriter-oriented stuff in the beginning, but that will lead them to more and more folk and roots music down the road.

8386 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you see the focus on instrumental as being a problem for folk and roots music?

8387 MR. BENJAMIN: Not necessarily. There are many, many extremely talented instrumental artists in this country who are working sympathetically with the folk and roots industry or are folk artists as well. Absolutely.

8388 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here.

8389 MR. BENJAMIN: All right. Thanks, folks.

8390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Benjamin.

8391 Mr. Secretary, please.

8392 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8393 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Monsieur Pierre Thivierge.

--- Pause

8394 THE SECRETARY: Not seeing anybody, Madam Chair, we will now hear Suzie Vinnick.

--- Pause

8395 THE SECRETARY: Ms Vinnick, you have half an hour to present your intervention.

--- Laughter / Rires

8396 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. As you can see, our procedures are flexible.

--- Laughter / Rires


8397 MS VINNICK: My name is Suzie Vinnick, I am a singer/songwriter now based in Toronto. Originally, I lived in Ottawa for seven years. I am here today acting as an appearing intervenor in support CKMW's application for The Jewel FM in Ottawa.

8398 I am an independent singer/songwriter from Toronto who has recently released a new CD. It is very challenging to obtain airplay on Canadian radio. I have spent a lot of money on radio promotion and paying a radio tracker attempting to receive some radio play.

8399 I was thrilled when I connected with the FOX-FM people in Toronto, that they wanted to play my CD and are playing a number of tracks from it and have been for the last three or four months.

8400 I am excited to hear the possibilities of having that expanded, that same radio play happening in Ottawa with the possibility of The Jewel FM radio station here.

8401 As a Canadian musician I am always pleased to hear that original music is kept alive and independent music is available to the general public. As an independent artist, I sell the majority of my CDs from my Internet site or from my live shows and I don't have the luxury of promotion and distribution by a major label.

8402 Having radio play my music is an important and enormous benefit, as my exposure to the public is increased a hundredfold. The support of radio means a great deal and happens infrequently without a deal with a major record label, and I am most grateful that FOX-FM is playing my music and helping me to reach an audience that I otherwise wouldn't.

8403 I anticipate, with the inclusion of 40 per cent Canadian content plus a folk program and world music program, that the proposed station will hold its own in the marketplace. Having lived in Ottawa for a number of years and knowing how strong and well-supported the folk roots music scene is here in Ottawa, that I am pleased to hear of the opportunity that CKMW is potentially bringing to Ottawa listeners and to the Canadian music community.

8404 The Jewel FM is an important link for radio and Canadian musical artists and I thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of all the dedicated musicians who deserve to be heard.

8405 I have quoted from my original letter and I think I have covered most of it, but I have just some other points.

8406 I lived here in Ottawa for seven years and was really fortunate with my first release in 1994 to have been supported by a number of the stations in the Ottawa area. I had a number of songs played. This really helped me as an artist, as my profile grew and I noticed at shows, live shows, that more people came out, and I also sold more albums which enables me to survive as an artist.

8407 It is very challenging to survive as an artist and so any radio station playing the music will only help allow me to be creative, and other artists as well.

8408 I'm just sort of taking a look at my notes.

8409 There is a listserv on-line called Maplepost and what it is is a dialogue for folk music bookers and artists across Canada. There was a bit of a dialogue about supporting The Jewel FM's proposed new station.

8410 I just wanted to read something that was written by another folk musician from the Waterloo-Kitchener area. Her name is Maryanne Epp(ph) and what she stated was:

"If as Canadians we could get a radio station like this in every community, this kind of radio could better service the boomer population who happen to be the largest population on the planet right now." (As read)

8411 I know from my live shows that this audience are the people that buy a lot of the recordings, folk music, roots music.

"Also, at the same time will provide a more accurate platform for Canadian artists emerging and established to reflect the diversity of Canadian music back to the communities from which it arises. This radio station is hopefully the first of many of its kind. I'm in." (As read)

8412 I spend most of my time singing and not talking, so I don't know, I guess I think supporting the station is very important and I think it will be just a start.

8413 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, did you have a request?

--- Laughter / Rires

8414 MS VINNICK: Anyway, yes, I would be happy to share something with you quickly.

8415 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

8416 MS VINNICK: All right.

8417 THE CHAIRPERSON: He makes the rules.

8418 MS VINNICK: Anyway, thank you for listening. I will tell you that after.

8419 I am going to do a song called "Oreo Cookie Blues", just quickly, and thank you for listening.

--- Musical interlude / Intermède musical

--- Applause / applaudissements

8420 MS VINNICK: I just want to say thank you very much, and I'm playing this Friday night at the Capital Music Hall in Ottawa.

--- Laughter / Rires

8421 THE CHAIRPERSON: We may see you again.

8422 Do you have any questions?

8423 CONSEILLÈRE NOL: May be one other way of helping you in your career would be to go in and meet with, is it General Foods that makes those Oreo cookies?

--- Laughter / Rires

8424 CONSEILLÈRE NOL: They should sponsor you.

8425 What you are telling us is you need to be played so that your records do sell, I call them records because I am old fashioned.

8426 MS VINNICK: That's fine.

8427 CONSEILLÈRE NOL: They are CDs.

8428 MS VINNICK: Yes.

8429 CONSEILLÈRE NOL: Unfortunately, you were not with Mr. Abel when he won his lottery ticket?

8430 MS VINNICK: No.

8431 CONSEILLÈRE NOL: Thank you very much. Your presentation was very clear.

8432 MS VINNICK: Thanks.

8433 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Vinnick and thank you for the CD.

8434 MS VINNICK: Oh, you're welcome.

8435 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to play that the next time it's suggested that I go on a diet.

--- Laughter / Rires

8436 MS VINNICK: All right, thank you.

8437 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8438 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8439 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Sean Scalon.

--- Pause

8440 Madam Chair, not seeing anybody getting up, we will now hear from the Canadian Multicultural Media Alliance.

8441 MR. SHAIL: Good morning, Madam Chair.

8442 THE SECRETARY: Could you hang on just a second, sir.

8443 You have another panelist.

8444 MR. SHAIL: Thank you.

8445 Good morning, Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, staff members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.

8446 I thank you for this opportunity to address you in support of the CHIN Fusion 96.5 FM radio licence application.

8447 My name is Santosh Shail, I will also be speaking on behalf of my wife, Swapna Shail who couldn't make it here this morning.

8448 Joining me here today are also my colleagues Anna Chiappa, Cheryl Antoine, and Vlidimir Torres.

8449 They are all active in ethno-cultural issues and cross-cultural broadcasting in Canada.

8450 Since April of this year, my wife Swapna and I have been producing 12 hours of South Asian variety radio programs per week on CHIN CJLL 97.9 FM.

8451 These programs are broadcast under the name Arohi which means upward movement, representing the all-around progress being made by Ottawa's South Asian community.

8452 Please allow me to give you an idea about what we currently offer to our listeners on 97.9 FM, radio, as well as over the Internet.

8453 Music is predominantly most of Arohi's programming and our main focus is on community involvement, participation and interaction.

8454 For example, we have a program dedicated entirely to playing the favourite songs of our listeners, live by request, through call-in and via our web portal,

8455 Arohi also offers a popular program of songs from the Golden Era of South Asian film music, a soulful program of selected gazels or songs based on romantic poetry and a top 10 program that plays the week's most popular Hindi songs as selected by our listeners.

8456 We have also developed some innovative program formats for our listeners, including a singing competition between two families, the idea being to introduce two families to each other and to the community every week.

8457 About our development model at Arohi, let me just give you a brief idea.

8458 Swapna and I are managing the South Asian programming at CJLL based on the sum total of all of the best ideas that we have developed over our broadcasting career which, by the way, spans over 20 years now.

8459 Adopting a public broadcasting model, including internships and skills training, to support our programming, using convergent media technologies to make immediate and interactive contact with our listeners, building an education and empowerment focus in everything that we do and, using creative expression as a means to uplift the human spirit.

8460 We are eager to embark on building a cross-cultural public affairs format which explores cross-cultural issues and brings the South Asian community in more direct contact with other communities.

8461 Arohi is very popular with South Asian audiences because it fulfils the community's need for cultural expression, entertainment, interaction, and emotional support.

8462 Swapna and I believe that this same spirit of cooperation that we have built with the South Asian community on CJLL can be built on a cross-cultural basis to promote a stronger sense of multicultural identity in the Nation's Capital.

8463 We want to allow multicultural groups to interact and participate across cultural communities and to truly express the pluralistic nature that exists in this country with their hearts and souls.

8464 Thank you very much for this opportunity to address you here today, and I will be more than happy to answer your questions.

8465 MS CHIAPPA: Thank you very much.

8466 My name is Anna Chiappa, hello Commissioners and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak here today.

8467 I am pleased to be here in support of the CHIN Fusion application. This is a station concept of the future because of its cross-cultural dimensions.

8468 I am the executive director of the Canadian Ethno-Cultural Council and I'm especially aware of the needs of third language communities.

8469 The best way for these communities to grow is by giving them a voice in Canadian society and a means to explore issues across cultures.

8470 I believe that this will make way for a new kind of constructive dialogue in Canada that includes the vast richness of our cultural communities in our everyday policy making.

8471 To my knowledge there are no media platforms currently available in Canada for cross-cultural communities to talk about and share their issues on a cross-cultural basis.

8472 CHIN's Fusion application is the first public broadcasting service proposal available that can provide a vehicle for something akin to public affairs broadcasting for the third sector, and this is a sector that is very often forgotten in my estimation.

8473 I've followed the development of multicultural broadcasting in Canada over the years in the work that I do at the Council and, most recently, I participated in the Task Force on Cultural Diversity in Television, established by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

8474 This experience has taught me that just as the CRTC is looking at ways to improve the representation of Canada's cultural diversity, in television broadcasting, diversity standards should also be sought for radio and these standards should address the need for cross-cultural programming in our cultural communities.

8475 I also hope that CRTC can recognize that beyond striving to establish standards of representation to support cultural diversity in Canadian broadcasting, media should also be used as a means to maintain cultural liberties in a diverse world.

8476 This means giving ethno-cultural communities a chance to add their voice to the issues of the day.

8477 I'm really impressed with the level of public affairs programming that CHIN has developed in the very short time at CJLL. This demonstrates that CHIN has the capacity and is ready to provide cultural diverse spoken word programming in English in prime time.

8478 The Fusion format will go a long way towards supporting full participation of cultural communities in the national conversation, and it's best done here at the National Capital. Ottawa is the best possible first market for a cross-cultural public affairs radio station because the national agenda is set here, issues are debated here, community interests and social movements seek representation here.

8479 The CEC wants the CRTC to know that we will engage CHIN's producers and their listeners in a two-way dialogue on the issues, whether they're everyday lifestyle issues or issues of national significance and we want to work with CHIN to make our network of spokes people available for interviews to provide informed views on issues.

8480 Ladies and gentlemen, the Council endorses CHIN's Fusion application as a very positive proposal for bringing our ethno-cultural communities into a national dialogue as a means to encouraging politics of greater inclusion and to help bring diversity into the mainstream of Canadian society.

8481 Thank you.

8482 MS ANTOINE: Madam Chairperson, Commissioner, members of the Commission staff, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Cheryl Antoine and it is my pleasure to speak on behalf of CHIN Radio CJLL for the application for the 96.5 FM licence.

8483 I believe that the English language spoken format with smooth jazz music proposed by CHIN, otherwise known as the Fusion application, is needed by our diverse cultural communities.

8484 It is conceived to benefit us all. I wish to demonstrate my presentation today by the format for cultural communities in Ottawa, which I think will be good for us and good for Canada as a whole.

8485 For me, CHIN's Fusion format helps my community, the Caribbean community. It expresses our rich, cultural identity, affirms its strong community values and extends the civic-mindedness on the world stage.

8486 It will support community participation in a dynamic way. It will support us, and encourage us in terms of politics and in terms of inclusion, after all, always been spoken of as a visible minority, we sometimes think that we are invisible. So, we'd like to change that, and it will give us a voice to cultural diversity within mainstream culture where it belongs.

8487 The Caribbean community is like a bouquet of flowers and we are diverse, yet our diversity is very colourful and rich. In the Canadian context, we represent diversity within diversity.

8488 We put cultural diversity on a whole new dimension. Let me explain what I mean by that diversity.

8489 I am originally from Trinidad. I take some of my cultural influences from there, but I also interact with cultural influences from other communities, other Caribbean communities. These cultures area all hybrid African, European cultures, with many influences within themselves, all interacting with each other, not only in the Caribbean, but in the Americas as a whole.

8490 As an associate producer on CHIN's CJLL station, I am very proud of what we have already accomplished in the year that we've been on air in Ottawa, reaching out to the cultural diversity of the Caribbean and bringing into it the mainstream of Canada's culturally diverse identity.

8491 We bring a little bit of all the Caribbeanists into the mainstream and, in so doing, we explain, represent, enhance, enlighten, inform the larger community.

8492 I wish to tell you a bit of the success of that as we've gone through the year at CHIN CJLL 97.9.

8493 In my production of the show called Caribbean Exposure, which airs weekday mornings 5:00 to 7:00 a.m., this program focuses on information sharing regarding community issues, world events affecting the Caribbean and it has become in many ways the voice of the Caribbean in the community.

8494 It focuses also on the activism within a network of communities, drawing Caribbean communities together into a dialogue, empowering them to support community outreach in a very broad sense.

8495 For example, the recent events of Hurricane Ivan in the Caribbean, specifically in Grenada, has allowed my program, CHIN being the vehicle for that, to reach out and to assist in fund-raising efforts that have been able to go a long way in assisting our community, and we've even expanded into Montreal where we contacted the other relief funders there and were able to promote the program -- the relief program for funding. That's one aspect of the diversity within the diversity.

8496 And, as well, one morning a week, we communicate with another radio station in New York. We do it via the telephone. We have a 15-minute, two-way where we share information with them, where, for example, we were able recently to have an interview with Mrs. Theresa Heinz Kerry.

8497 In turn, we also provide content for information where I have been able to interview, on several occasions during this time, Dr. Keith Mitchell, the Prime Minister of Grenada.

8498 And so sharing the information, not only at the home but on the outside.

8499 So, it's for us to be able to reach further with our application because we're able to draw through our forces, and it gives a new perspective on it.

8500 And I will give you a bit of Fusion. A bit of Fusion is the fact that, being from Trinidad, I am mixed with Portuguese, Chinese, Dutch, African, French, Spanish, English. I am Fusion. I am Trinidadian.

8501 And this is what we want to do with the programming at the new 96.5, this is what we wish to do.

8502 In terms of the jazz, the soft jazz, people seem to think that it's just going to be light music, but it's also going to integrate because there is jazz in the Caribbean. There are jazz festivals in the Caribbean, there's Pan Jazz, and I see that you raised your eyebrow -- yes, because you may not have known that.

8503 And Pan Jazz, for example, Pan is the steel band of the 21st century, the instrument of the 21st century where we have Pan festivals in the Caribbean, we have jazz festivals in St. Lucia.

8504 This is going to put us on a larger setting and being able to make people who are here broaden their scope. They travel all the time to the Caribbean, people do, and now we're able to bring everything into one area and we're able to link with all, and who better can do that and why not in Ottawa, why not at the Nation's Capital, where we have the Department of Multiculturalism, where we set policies and procedures and guidelines for multiculturalism?

8505 We have one radio station that is actually going to do this, be the voice.

8506 When we did it on the community radio programs we were a whisper, now we're going to have a large stage on which to do that.

8507 You should listen seriously to our request and allow us to bring a little bit of 96.5 in the shade for you.

8508 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your time.

8509 MR. TORRES: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, I am aware of the time constraints. I'll be extremely brief and try not to repeat.

8510 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. The Secretary owes me one.

--- laughter / Rires

8511 MR. TORRES: We, those that have had the opportunity to broadcast through CHIN Radio, 97.9 FM do that in more than 20 different languages.

8512 But the way we all communicate -- and this is just a tiny sample of how many we are -- the way we all communicate is in English, which is the main reason why it makes sense to have a multicultural radio station broadcasting in English.

8513 It would enable us to identify the issues we share, discuss them openly, strengthen what could be our joint participation at a city level, at a community level, and our lobbying as well when it comes to provincial and federal government and the many issues that I'm not going to list -- bearing in mind those time constraints -- that we have in common, all the multicultural communities of Ottawa, or for what it matters, in Canada.

8514 Anna has already explained pretty clearly and so has done Cheryl, why Ottawa is the ideal environment for such an initiative.

8515 I'm only going to add to that that if you think of the following combination, politics, talk shows, discussion of ideas, plural voices, diversity and all this in a context of worldly culture and music, well, I guess that fits the target.

8516 That is the kind of radio station that responds to the interests and desires of a great majority of the people I have come across in this city.

8517 And who can better do that than the people behind this application?

8518 The people from CHIN Radio have the tradition of knowing multicultural issues, of dealing with them, of working with all the multicultural communities, and they know the radio business. They know the power of radio as a media.

8519 Thank you.

8520 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8521 Commissioner Pennefather.

8522 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

8523 Thank you all. You have covered quite a bit of ground and helped fill out a few questions I had already had, but since most of you -- I am sorry, I didn't catch your name from...

8524 MS KIAPPA: Anna.

8525 MR. SHAIL: Anna.


8527 I am going to talk to the other three as producers of radio programming, if I may, just to hone in on one point. You made the point very eloquently about the English language.

8528 That being said, how do you see the expectations of all the communities being fulfilled by this new proposal?

8529 You are producers of radio. I think, Mr. Shail, you have described your South Asian programming and you described it in terms of what currently is on CHIN Radio in Ottawa, but largely directed, I can imagine, to a more target audience, the South Asian community.

8530 And again, Miss Antoine, you would have -- within the fusion of the Caribbean audience, it is still the Caribbean audience, and I believe, sir, you have another audience perhaps to whom you are dealing.

8531 What is the difference between what you are doing now and what you see going forward and how can all these expectations be fulfilled through this new station concept?

8532 MR. SHAIL: Thank you very much for the question. I think it is very relevant that we address that.

8533 I will speak from my experience with the programming that I do for the South Asian community.

8534 I will talk about the talk show format, as also the music, because I am sure you must be wondering also how does the South Asian community become involved in the jazz, the smooth jazz aspect that...

8535 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That was the next question, so thank you.

8536 MR. SHAIL: Yes.

8537 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We had questions about that earlier --

8538 MR. SHAIL: Yes --

8539 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- about what seemed to be --

8540 MR. SHAIL:  -- I am sure you did.

8541 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- the multicultural cross-cultural programming here and the smooth jazz commercial radio --

8542 MR. SHAIL: Absolutely.


8544 MR. SHAIL: Yes. So let me address that first without stealing your thunder.

8545 There is every year, on a very regular basis, in India at least, what is called the Jazz Yatra, yatra meaning travel, journeys, and it is an international thing, a festival of sorts.

8546 And there is within the musical paradigm of South Asia, in the classical and semi-classical and even popular formats of music, a strong element of jazz, and there is a term, which is called Jugalbundi, which is very improvisational music where instrumentalists get together and they perform.

8547 You will often wonder what is the synchronicity that is happening between them, how do they end at the same time, how do they gel so well?

8548 And it is all about jazz. It is the abstract nature of the music, apart from the technical aspects of the music and notations and all that.

8549 There is a strong similarity between what we hear as mainstream jazz and what is the South Asian jazz and we would like, through this fusion channel, to bring that aspect of jazz to the rest of the mainstream community. And believe me, there is lots. There is so much out there that the mainstream Canadian audiences would love to hear, which they are deprived of as of now.

8550 As regards the talk show format, my experience has been -- only last week, we had my representative in the House of Commons, Pierre Poilievre, on our show, and the entire interview, a one-hour interview, it is the idea of bringing our representative to the community.

8551 We have started a series of programs whereby we have representatives of the community, from each constituency, come in and talk to our listeners. It is very interactive, very participatory, and listeners do call in and ask all kinds of questions.

8552 And guess what the language is of this entire discussion?

8553 It can't be Hindi because Pierre doesn't speak Hindi, but listeners do call in, in Hindi and we do translate. We have situations like this and we often wonder, what if we could have this entire discussion in English?

8554 Unfortunately, the mandate of CHIN 97.9 FM is not that. We are clearly instructed to conduct all of our talk shows and announcements in languages other than English and French.

8555 So there is a limitation and we would like to expand that interaction, participation, to the rest of the mainstream community because there are issues that affect the South Asian community at large which are of interest to the mainstream community and vice-versa.

8556 So I think this opportunity is -- I think it is a visionary thing that Mr. Lombardi has recommended, has put forward as a proposal. I think it is ground-breaking and I believe this is what the rest of Canada will be looking at as a perfect model in the promotion of multiculturalism within Canada.

8557 I hope I have answered your question.

8558 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

8559 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to Mr. Shail and to all of you for your participation.

8560 MR. SHAIL: Thank you.

8561 MS KIAPPA: Thank you.

8562 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8563 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8564 The next appearing intervention will be presented by the Italian Canadian Community Centre, Mr. Angelo Filoso.


8565 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Angelo Filoso is not able to attend and has asked me to be a...

8566 THE SECRETARY: Okay, that is fine -- and friends. And, Madam Chair, we are even.

8567 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. I understand Mr. Filoso is not here.


8569 THE CHAIRPERSON: So perhaps you can introduce your panel.

8570 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, by all means. Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning, Commissioners.

8571 Unfortunately, Angelo Filoso couldn't make it today, so he asked me to intervene on his behalf. He is the President of the Italo-Canadian Community Centre and also sits with me on the board of Villa Marconi Long-Term Care Centre and the Marconi Centre.

8572 I am pleased to provide my comments today in support of the CHIN Fusion application, along with my colleagues, which I introduce now: Rowena Tolsun, Cliff Gazee and Kashyap Desai.

8573 CHIN is now the life work of two generations of Lombardis, and the Fusion application springs out of the dreams of both generations.

8574 First, it follows along the path that Johnny wanted to take to better serve what he referred to as third-generation Canadians.

8575 And then it follows along an important vision that Leonard has identified. That is to encourage ethnic groups to better communicate across cultures and to make their views and perspectives known to the mainstream of Canadian society.

8576 I am in complete agreement with the Lombardis' to both broaden the generational appeal of ethnic broadcasting and to empower cultural communities to add their voices and participate more directly in the national conversation.

8577 I view the CHIN Fusion application as giving cultural communities a means to more actively participate and as an opportunity to give something back to Canada to show their appreciation, in a language that most Canadians can understand.

8578 Many cultural communities in Canada are enriched in terms of their business, families and cultural lives.

8579 Cultural communities often operate business networks abroad that give them special access to the markets of Asia, the Middle East, Latin America and other regions in which Canada is eager to build trade relations. They build strong and often large families so their offspring will play an increasingly important role in Canadian society.

8580 Cultural communities enrich our lives with their cultural traditions and keep us informed about world affairs in a very special and personal way, based on firsthand knowledge.

8581 In these respects, our cultural communities will have an increasingly important role to play in the decades to come in making Canada a good place to live.

8582 I, therefore, believe that it is time to provide our multicultural communities with public affairs media services along the lines of CHIN Fusion application. This is important so as to empower multicultural communities within the mainstream of Canadian society and also to share the empowerment that these communities have achieved within the mainstream.

8583 In closing, I see many important benefits of CHIN Fusion's application.

8584 It will help to instil pride in our cultural communities as they gain respect in mainstream Canadian culture.

8585 It will help these communities to showcase their best and their brightest to the rest of Canada.

8586 It will involve all communities in discussions about building a better future for Canada, utilizing the richness of our multicultural communities to their fullest potential.

8587 If the application of CJLL that you granted a few years ago, to which I had the privilege to appear, was aimed at fathers and mothers, first-generation immigrants, CHIN Fusion is aimed at their daughters and sons.

8588 Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity to express my views.

8589 MS TOLSUN: Thank you very much for giving me the chance to intervene in support of the CHIN Fusion 96.5 FM radio licence.

8590 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission. My name is Rowena Tolsun. I strongly support the Fusion application, both as a media producer and as an educator.

8591 As the Associate Producer and announcer for CHIN CJLL of a Chinese Mandarin program called "The Voices of Ottawa," I have learned that there is a very great need to produce a cross-cultural spoken word show for the Chinese community in Ottawa and Gatineau.

8592 As everybody knows, China is going through unprecedented change right now, both in business and in its society. As China takes its place among the most powerful countries in the world, Canada's presence in China will increasingly be examined here at home.

8593 The way that we understand China and the way that we treat Chinese immigrants will be closely examined but the Chinese community is not homogeneous. It involves many layers of social values because of the many waves of Chinese who have come to Canada over the past years.

8594 Let me give you an example of what I mean.

8595 My work as a teacher requires me to be involved in sensitizing young Chinese about life in Canada. This generation of Chinese are more individualistic and they don't share the social values and discipline of their parents. On the other hand, they bring their own unique cultural values, growing up in the eighties and nineties in China.

8596 For example, I was quite surprised to find out during a class discussion that they regard Christianity as nothing other than a superstition. By learning about world views that people carry around inside themselves, we learn about ourselves and the world we live in.

8597 CHIN's Fusion format will explore people's perspectives on the world.

8598 The Chinese community cares about issues which are special to them and are related directly to their own lifestyles.

8599 So I want to discuss family issues with my Chinese listeners, such as the impact of the one child policy in China to family and the unsupervised lifestyle of young Chinese in Canada. These subjects will be of special concern to Chinese Canadians but they may also be of interest to people who are not in the Chinese community.

8600 Conversely, multicultural communities care about current affairs issues, much as anybody else in Canada. They care about health care, jobs, crime rates, education, the future of Canada or any other issues, not as multicultural issues per se but as the issues we all have in common.

8601 That is the brilliance of the format proposed by CHIN Fusion's application. It gives people a chance to view issues from a more informed, more inclusive perspective. It allows a diverse range of listeners to compare and to contrast their cross-cultural perspectives on the issues, whether those issues are domestic or of an international nature.

8602 It will promote vital cross-cultural communications between the Chinese community and other ethnocultural groups in Canada and it will be an ideal stage to learn, to appreciate our different cultural conceptions and to promote cross-cultural understanding.

8603 I trust that the Commission will consider CHIN's Fusion application carefully, knowing that cultural communities are very much in support of this format. Thank you very much.

8604 MR. GAZEE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission.

8605 My name is Cliff Gazee, and along with my colleagues, I am very pleased to support the CHIN Fusion application.

8606 CHIN's application is very important to the expression of multiculturalism in Canada because of its focus on cross-cultural communications.

8607 My life's work has been devoted to dealing with social justice and racial equality issues. In this work, I have come to realize the importance of communicating across cultures. I have learned that we cannot make progress for cultural communities on important social issues unless we promote understanding both between and across cultures.

8608 That is why I got involved as the founding Chair of the National Capital Alliance on Race Relations over 20 years ago and why I also served as Vice-President of the Odawa Native Friendship Centre for six years.

8609 I was one of the founding editors of Canada's first national Aboriginal magazine, "The Native Perspective," and later worked with the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada, not just as the editor of their magazine "Inuit Today" but in assisting my late wife to translate the legalese of the original proposal that led to the creation of Nunavut into concepts relevant to Inuit culture and traditional community structures.

8610 In the early eighties, I worked as a producer for CBC Radio on a network program called "Our Native Land" and then as a producer for a show that featured an exploration of beliefs, cultures and social justice issues, called "Open House."

8611 My work as a producer has allowed me to pursue my desire to help reinforce cultural identities and build bridges of understanding, mutual respect and acceptance between the many cultures that are continuing to change the face of what it means to be a Canadian.

8612 My enthusiasm for cross-cultural dialogue has its roots growing up in Halifax with an Acadian mom and an East Indian dad with Trinidadian roots who had spent many years travelling the world with the merchant marine and he was someone who opened our home and shared our table with visitors to Halifax from many, many places around the globe. This mix is further enriched in my children, whose mother was Inuit.

8613 The blending of unique cultures into hybrid Canadians began long before I was born and has become many times more common since I was a kid but it is safe to say that most of us born and raised in Canada have only a basic familiarity with the language of our ancestors, if that.

8614 CHIN's Fusion concept not only opens a new window for folks like me to learn where we personally come from but also, maybe more importantly, it offers both new Canadians and multigenerational Canadians a new vehicle to learn and understand more about all the people of different roots that make Canada what it is today, from the First Peoples to the most recent arrivals.

8615 Thank you and I look forward to any questions you might have that will allow me to expand beyond my limited amount of time. Thank you.

8616 MR. DESAI: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Kashyap Desai and I am here to support the CHIN Fusion application.

8617 I would like to be -- Mr. Secretary said Italian but I am originally from Nigeria. So just to clear it out. I would like to be Italian one day, especially because of the women...

8618 I am the Executive Director for the Canadian Beer Music Festival here in Ottawa. We represent a unified cross-cultural voice with a constituency in the community from both the Sub-continent of Africa and the Americas.

8619 As I've said, I'm originally from Nigeria and ended up making my home in Ottawa 27 years ago.

8620 I started as a D.J., then a talent promoter and ultimately, as a festival organizer. Our very first main objective is to promote urban culture and celebrate diversity and artistic creativity in Canada where a festival of colours unite in the world with music. We promote musicians from around the world to showcase their talent for the people in the National Capital Region to appreciate.

8621 We believe that 90 per cent of the most talented artists in the world are yet to be discovered. An example is the lady that just sang here beautifully. I mean, I'm sure everybody loved it, but if you go out there and you... I mean, you ask people about her, I mean, I have seen her for the first time and I haven't heard the musical...

8622 So, we strongly believe that there are a lot of artists out there that need to be discovered and they need a window of opportunity to promote themselves. By you licensing CHIN Fusion, we see this as an additional window and avenue to promote these talented artists before and after, you know, the festival.

8623 With my knowledge of musical expression and my involvement in the musical community here in the region, I believe that we can develop and produce a very entertaining urban music talk-show.

8624 The show will talk about... will be a talk and calling show that explores whatever music is all about and what it means the yellow colour by introducing and interviewing many local musicians.

8625 Ottawa is a festival city, like somebody said earlier on, I think the festival... the Folk Festival lady.,. Ottawa is a festival city which includes the International Jazz Festival. We would like to talk about this, the trials and tribulations of music festivals, including our own urban fest. and compare them with music festivals from all over the world.

8626 We would like to talk about the African and Caribbean influence in western popular music and cultural from culturally specific jazz formats to reggae, jazz fusion to many R&B blended formats.

8627 As we all can relate to the baby- boomers have moved from the disco house, you know, I see the disco bars here and I remember when this used to be a singles club back in the days and, you know, in the seventies, to listening to jazz in the coffee shops all around the city, which is we all the baby-boomers, you know, hang out nowadays and the music of their choice is basically smooth jazz and if you listen to the music in the coffee shops around you.

8628 We would like to talk about the CHIN Fusion play list as well as the history of the blues jazz, disco and the transformation of the music scene within our generation over the last 25 years.

8629 These are some of the ideas for the development of the urban music talk-show. We believe that it will be appealing to the local African, Caribbean and African American communities in Ottawa and that it will have a strong cross-cultural appeal.

8630 Ladies and gentlemen, we are now in the global village. It is time to explore, expose ourselves to smooth jazz from South Africa, Nigeria, Jamaica, Cuba, India, just to name a few.

8631 There is a big world of music out there that is not being played on the radio stations in Canada right now. I view the fusion from our proposed by CHIN as a great avenue to promote this music and the urban identity of Ottawa Gatineau through the realization of our cross-cultural experiences.

8632 With a population of over one million people in the local region, you may think that our urban identity does not exist as it might, for example, in Toronto or New York, but it does exist and we think it is healthy for Ottawa Gatineau throughout the radio stations to promote the urban cultural identity.

8633 I strongly appeal to the Commission to consider CHIN application and consider the benefits it will provide in supporting our various cultural communities by giving them a chance to help Ottawa Gatineau to be the first to realize the most positive creative part of the urban identity.

8634 Thank you very much and in Nigeria, I would say... we would usually say... I would say --

8635 So, that's all for today.

8636 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure if the Board of the Centro Italiano Canadese saw who has represented them today, they would have a surprise, but the answer would be: that's fusion.

8637 We have no questions. Thank you.

8638 MR. DESAI: Indeed. Actually, yesterday, madam Chairperson, listening to or viewing the latest news and the broadcast of CBC from Vancouver and the interview of a Chinese of seventh generation Canadian Chinese who fuses food and songs between Scotland and China, in viewing that for the first time, I saw Peter Mansbridge using the name "fusing"... the word "fusing", the verb. So, therefore, we may have a trend there.

8639 THE CHAIRPERSON: I hope we have no Chinese Canadians playing the bag pipe. Thank you very much for your participation.

8640 Mr. Secretary, please.

8641 LE SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, madame la présidente. La prochaine intervention comparante, représentée par monsieur Normand Daoust.

8642 Ne voyant pas monsieur Daoust, la prochaine intervention comparante sera présentée par monsieur Stéphane Paquet.

8643 Ne voyant pas monsieur Paquet, la prochaine intervention sera présentée par monsieur Pierre Gravel.


8644 M. GRAVEL : Bonjour. J'avais envoyé une... j'avais donné mon nom pour auditionner, mais je pense qu'on l'avait eu... disons que je remplace monsieur Daoust et monsieur Paquet.

8645 Je me présente, Pierre Gravel. Je suis représentant des Jeunes Entreprises de l'Outaouais, mouvement qui vise à initier les jeunes du Secondaire à l'entrepreneurship par la formation de mini entreprises en milieu scolaire.

8646 Je suis aussi actif chez les Scouts dans la paroisse où je suis. Via la Société pour la promotion des sciences et technologies, je donne des ateliers d'astronomie dans les écoles primaires.

8647 Je fais aussi une chronique de radio à la radio de Radio Canada une fois par mois sur l'astronomie et je suis un ardent défenseur de la langue française et patriotique canadien et aussi père de deux enfants de 11 et 14 ans qui entreront bientôt dans le segment des 18-34 ans, mais qui ont déjà débuté à écouter, entre autres, de la musique à la station Hot 89.9.

8648 Je suis donc ici en appui à Radio Nord pour opérer une station pop rock urbaine, pour rejoindre les jeunes adultes francophones du groupe cible 18-34 ans dans le marché Ottawa-Gatineau.

8649 J'ai lu avec intérêt le mémoire soumis par Radio Nord et voici les points qui ont fortement retenu mon attention et que je dois dire... que vous devez aussi retenir dans le cadre de vos délibérations.

8650 Radio Nord présenterait une radio 100 pour cent locale dédiée aux auditeurs de la région qui reflète les réalités et répond à leurs besoins. Il représente un joueur différent des deux dominants du marché francophone actuel et cette station amènerait une diversité au niveau du marché d'écoute.

8651 Ce qui a retenu mon attention aussi, le minimum hebdomadaire de 45 pour cent de contenu canadien. Je trouve ça, moi, très important de promouvoir cet aspect-là. L'engagement annuel au développement des talents canadiens et locaux, le projet La Relève X en Outaouais, le volet Radio Campus. Si les gens peuvent avoir l'occasion justement de... des gens d'en dehors, pas juste dans le milieu fermé des professionnels de la radio, mais aussi des étudiants qui pourraient faire leur apparition dans les radios comme ça, je trouve ça important.

8652 Le volet... bien, gagner un emploi à Radio Campus à partir de ceux qui sont dans les différentes radios, que les gens pourraient voter pour celui qui aurait un poste. C'est un peu de la radio réalité, mais je pense que ça s'adapte bien au contexte et aussi, les capsules de développement de talents émergents.

8653 Ça, chacune de ces petites choses-là va faire qu'on va avoir des nouveaux talents qui vont pouvoir arriver sur le marché.

8654 Tout ça combiné à la synergie créée avec CHLX-FM qu'opère déjà Radio Nord et qui est la station que, moi, personnellement, j'écoute à 75, 80 pour cent du temps et à laquelle je souhaite une longue vie, les deux ensemble, bon, vont apporter de meilleures informations parce que, bon, un bureau de journalistes plus complet et synergie en général au niveau des dépenses, et permettra aux deux stations de mieux fructifier et de bien compléter la demande au niveau francophone dans l'Outaouais.

8655 Je vous remercie du temps que vous m'avez accordé là-dessus.

8656 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Gravel. Madame Noël.

8657 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Bonjour, monsieur Gravel. Alors, J.E., est-ce que les Jeunes entreprises, c'est le mouvement J.E. qu'on connaît aussi à Montréal?

8658 M. GRAVEL : Oui, oui, oui.

8659 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Est-ce que c'est la même chose?

8660 M. GRAVEL : Oui, exactement.

8661 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Alors, vous faites des... vous développez des petites entreprises avec des étudiants qui les amènent à terme avec...

8662 M. GRAVEL : Exactement, sur une période de 26 semaines de programme où ils font de la création...

8663 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Vous êtes le formateur.

8664 M. GRAVEL : ... de l'entreprise étudiante, parce qu'on appelle ça comme ça maintenant, à la fin, en passant par le plan d'affaires à la production du produit et tout ça.

8665 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Avec des bénévoles qui viennent du milieu des affaires en général.

8666 M. GRAVEL : Exact.

8667 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Alors, j'ai bien connu.

8668 M. GRAVEL : J'ai été dix ans président de cet organisme-là dans l'Outaouais et je continue à siéger pour cet organisme-là.

8669 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : J'ai bien connu son équivalent à Montréal.

8670 M. GRAVEL : Oui.

8671 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Monsieur Gravel, vous nous mentionnez que c'est important d'avoir une radio pour les jeunes?

8672 M. GRAVEL : Oui.

8673 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Est-ce que vous estimez que le créneau n'est pas rempli à l'heure actuelle dans le marché francophone en Outaouais?

8674 M. GRAVEL : En fait, je regarde... je regarde mes fils à moi qui ont... quelquefois vont écouter CKTF et quelquefois je les vois dans mon véhicule dire, tu sais, on va écouter 89.9.

8675 Moi, ce n'est pas de la musique qui m'intéresse personnellement. Comme je vous dis, j'écoute plus CHLX, mais eux, bien, ils ne sont pas encore rendus à apprécier cette musique-là et ils apprécient d'autre chose et ça me fait tout le temps un petit quelque chose quand je les vois.

8676 Là, il y a l'opportunité de créer quelque chose avec un contenu canadien. Ce genre de musique-là, personnellement, je n'ai rien contre, c'est rien que ce n'est pas moi qui l'aime, c'est mes enfants, et je m'aperçois qu'ils vont devenir des consommateurs de ce genre de musique-là et s'ils l'écoutent déjà à cet âge-là, c'est qu'il y a un besoin. Le besoin n'est pas rempli.

8677 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Je vous remercie, mais un truc pour leur apprendre à apprécier la musique de CHLX, c'est peut-être de les envoyer au concert très tôt dans leur vie.

8678 M. GRAVEL : Ah! ils sont déjà les deux en concentration. En fait, ils ont fait la concentration musique à l'École Massé qui est une école primaire qui offre... une des seules écoles primaires au Québec qui offre un programme de musique à l'intérieur des cours, mais quand même, ils sont ouverts à d'autres genres de musique.

8679 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Ils veulent découvrir d'autre chose.

8680 M. GRAVEL : C'est ça.

8681 COMMISSAIRE NOËL : Je vous remercie, monsieur Gravel.

8682 M. GRAVEL : Merci.

8683 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Gravel, de votre participation.

8684 M. GRAVEL : Merci.

8685 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

8686 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, madam Chair. The last appearing intervention will be presented by messrs Norm Wright and Brian Perkin.

8687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Proceed when you're ready.


8688 MR. WRIGHT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission. My name is Norm Wright and along with my partner, Brian Perkin, I would very much like to thank the Commission for allowing us to appear at this hearing today.

8689 We are here to intervene against the four applications that proposed the use of 88.5 megahertz in the Ottawa Gatineau Region. We are not opposed in any way to their individual programming proposals. Our intervention rests solely on their proposed use of 88.5 channel 203.

8690 As a matter of record, Brian and I filed an application with the Commission on July 23rd of this year to establish a first local FM radio service to serve the people of the greater Perth Ontario area.

8691 After an extensive search by our engineering consultant, Mr. Doug McCauley, we submitted a proposal for a commercial station that would operate on 88.5 megahertz. Subsequently, on September 2nd, the Commission issued a Notice of Hearing and released for the first time details of the applications for radio broadcast licences proposed for Ottawa and Gatineau.

8692 We were disappointed to discover that four of these applications proposed the use of 88.5 in the larger neighbouring market of Ottawa Gatineau. This means these applications are technically, mutually exclusive with our proposed station in Perth.

8693 We immediately requested that the Commission process our application as quickly as possible so that it could be considered on the same hearing on November 1st. Failing this, we asked that the Commission reserve judgment on the awarding of 88.5 until our application had been placed on a hearing agenda.

8694 When we originally filed our application in July, we were given every indication that if, and I repeat if, all the mechanisms fell into place, there was every possibility that our hearing date could have been in November of this year.

8695 We are very aware of the heavy work load, vacation schedules and various issues facing the Commission. Indeed, the November 1st hearing was even moved back to this month, due to federal work interruptions. However, we have missed the opportunity for our application to appear at this hearing.

8696 We did receive notification from the Commission last week on December 1st, that the process is now under way for our application.

8697 We have proposed the establishment of the first plurally local radio service to meet the specific needs of residents of the greater Perth area. 88.5 is the best and most logical frequency to provide this service. We feel it imperative that the Commission consider our application before making any final decision on the use of 88.5 in eastern Ontario.

8698 My colleague Brian will describe some of the issues that we think should be considered.

8699 MR. PERKIN: Thank you. In recent large markets CRTC hearings such as Edmonton, Montreal, Vancouver and most recently Halifax, the Commission has granted multiple licences in a single hearing. With the larger markets being awarded a number of area frequencies all at once, this policy leaves few options for smaller surrounding markets.

8700 Given these recent decisions, we are very concerned that the people of Perth may be left in a similar situation. With dozens of signals coming at Perth from Ottawa to the north, Brockville and Kingston to the south and more from the U.S., the options for a serviceable Perth area signal are extremely limited.

8701 In a sense, I almost have to ask how many stations does the Ottawa area really need? As we all know, Ottawa Gatineau has the largest number of radio stations per capita of any city in Canada. The region's population of just over one million enjoys the service of 22 local stations, plus several other low power community stations.

8702 Equally divided, each of these 22 stations in the National Capital area would serve an average population of approximately 45,000 people.

8703 If we use the recent Halifax decisions as an example, and Ottawa is awarded, for instance, three of the five frequencies proposed, including 88.5, that average drops to less than 40,000 people per station.

8704 By comparison, our proposed station will serve the greater Perth area which includes the Townships of Tay Valley, Drummond/North Elmsley, Lanark Highlands, Mississippi Mills and Rideau Lakes.

This represents a population of 50,000 people in a region that is currently under-served by local radio.

8705 Using Ottawa's same per capita ratio, the Perth area should also be considered large enough to both deserve and financially support its own local radio voice. And I stress that our population statistics and advertising revenue projections do not include Smiths Falls.

8706 Some will point out that there are already two stations in nearby Smiths Falls that serve the Perth area. This used to be the case when the stations were under the management of local Smiths Falls owner and operator, Mr. Jack Pauley and later, under CHAI-FM Incorporated, when at one time there were up to 42 employees on site in Smiths Falls.

8707 Today, the small of the two stations, CGL-FM, does serve the local Smiths Falls area, but its main three millivolt per meter contour does not cover Perth. CJET sister station is Y101, CKBY formerly CIOX. It was originally licensed to serve the Smiths Falls area, but it has become for all intent and purpose an Ottawa station, that market being primarily the only one that can afford its 30-second commercial rate of upwards of $125.00.

8708 The station carries little or no local Perth news or content. Its morning show, news announcers, sales administration and management are all centered in Ottawa with a majority of daily programming originating from studios there.

8709 Essentially, the Ottawa market has been given another frequency and we have lost a signal initially allocated to serve our region. This lack of commitment to local programming does not respect the intent of the Broadcasting Act.

8710 The Commission is concerned over the station's quality and level of local programming, to the point where it now requires that that station file regular reports indicating what programming is in fact originating from Smiths Falls.

8711 Instead of working to a minimum of local service, our proposed use of 88.5 will give the opportunity to maximize local programming with a station situated in Perth to serve Perth.

8712 Our station will offer in-depth local news, interviews and information geared specifically to the Perth area. Our daytime soft music, easy listening format, will serve the areas higher than average age population.

8713 We also propose interactive community access programming for local residents of all ages. Local arts groups will be encouraged to present programs featuring other musical styles or spoken word content of interest to the area. We will provide our local secondary schools with airtime for their own highschool programs, along with the opportunity for co-op education placements for students.

8714 In addition to our extensive local programming, a tentative agreement has been made with the Ottawa Senators Hockey Club to reintroduce play-by-play NHL broadcasts sometime which have not been available in the local area in the Perth area for the last five years. Our application also provides local Lanark county artists with on-air exposure and Canadian Talent Development funding.

8715 The station will play a crucial role in promoting the area's unique heritage appeal and provide local merchants with an affordable vehicle to reach their customers, and this station will be owned and operated by broadcasters and volunteers who live in the community they serve.

8716 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Brian.

8717 Ladies and gentlemen, our broadcast consultant has identified 88.5 as the best available frequency to serve Perth and area. Transmitting from the local tower located 50 miles southwest of Ottawa, our proposed signal poses no interference problems for Global's television audio channel.

8718 We also commit to making greater use of 88.5. While our application has proposed a modest power of 1350 watts CRP we would work to increase our coverage so an even larger portion of our projected Perth market area would be served by this signal. Our engineering consultant indicates this can easily be accomplished from our proposed tower site, still without interference to Global.

8719 As well, of the four FM frequencies being proposed by Ottawa-area applicants, 88.5 is the only one that does not present short spacing problems in the Perth area. CFMK from Kingston already covers Perth with a signal on 96.3 and the use of 96.5 or 98.5 in Perth will result in interference with CFMK and CFLY from Kingston.

8720 However, the use of any of these three particular frequencies in Ottawa will provide a proper signal for any new Ottawa or Gatineau station.

8721 We feel it imperative that the Perth area be given a fair and equal opportunity to secure a proper signal for its very own local service. If 88.5 is awarded in Ottawa that opportunity will be lost. The best use of 88.5 in eastern Ontario is in Perth. Our population base warrants it, our community deserves it.

8722 We implore the Commission to reserve judgement on the awarding of 88.5 until the merits of our application have been fully considered.

8723 We sincerely thank the Commission for the opportunity we have been given to present our intervention today, and would be happy to answer any questions that the Commission may have.

8724 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wright, Mr. Perkin.

8725 Commissioner Langford.

8726 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8727 Gentlemen, your intervention is very clear and I have to tread very, very carefully here. I am going to reserve judgement on your application to reserve judgement, if that is careful enough.

8728 The only question I would have is on a very technical nature. I just simply can't get into the merits of one that is sitting on the shelf, opposed to four that is sitting here. But I am just looking at some of the technical maps filed by some of the other applicants for CK -- well, by CKMW, by Newcap and some of the others for 88.5. One knows that there is maybe a little more art than science in these things, but I don't see them going as far as Perth. One comes close to Ferguson Falls and the other really doesn't make it much past Carleton Place, so just depending on how they align their signal.

8729 So I guess what I am saying is that what I see here is not necessarily a complete shutting of the door, in the sense that Perth, if these maps are at all accurate, Perth isn't going to be covered with sound from Ottawa on this particular frequency.

8730 Have you with your engineers explored various ways to use adjoining frequencies or closer frequencies in some way? In other words, I guess, basically the general question is though you have said you have looked with your engineers at various possibilities and this is the best, are there some good second bests? Are there some third bests? Is there room here for -- is there wiggle room, as they say in the vernacular, technically for you to work out another approach to your goal?

8731 Sorry to be so wordy and vague here --

8732 MR. WRIGHT: No, no, I understand exactly what you are saying and we have been giving a great deal of thought to that situation.

8733 In cases where the power being used on 88.5 out of Ottawa at 1,000 or 2,000 watts CRP you could be quite right. We haven't gone into extensive detail with our engineering staff on that type of situation. Those stations, and particularly the one -- the engineering proposal put forth by Newcap at 30,000 watts ERP, it would appear that that could very well cause a problem. Perhaps some of the other engineering documents -- we haven't had access to their maps, obviously.

8734 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, they are on the public record now.

8735 MR. WRIGHT: Yes.

8736 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So that will give you something to work from.

8737 MR. WRIGHT: That's right.

8738 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Because, interestingly enough, as I said, just looking at the maps, and we are just looking at paper --

8739 MR. WRIGHT: Sure.

8740 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- the one you mentioned, Newcap, seems to be the least threatening of the two I have got in front of me right now. That's paper. That's still -- I shouldn't have cut you off, but is there a possibility here now that you have got all of this for some re-examination?

8741 MR. WRIGHT: I know that my engineer has it and he is looking at it.


8743 MR. WRIGHT: I would be pleased to get back to the Commission either in writing or at that time when we present our application if it is possible. Then you know, it has come to a successful resolution.

8744 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think, if you don't mind, we will leave it there. We have got -- your intervention is very clear.

8745 MR. WRIGHT: Absolutely.

8746 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you have got the number of staff and you have got some maps now to work with.

8747 MR. WRIGHT: Absolutely.

8748 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We wish you luck, but I think I really have to stop at that point, if you don't mind.

8749 MR. WRIGHT: No, I understand completely.

8750 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

8751 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wright, I guess when we look at these maps they don't reach Perth, but they get pretty close. Is your concern that if 88.5 were used by one of the applicants, 88.5 would no longer be available to you in Perth because it would invade the protected contour of the Ottawa station using 88.5; is that it?

8752 MR. WRIGHT: That is what I have been led to believe, yes.

8753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

8754 Thank you very much for your participation.

8755 Mr. Secretary, please.

8756 MR. SECRETARY: Madam Chair, this concludes Phase III of the Public Hearing.

8757 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 20-minute break now to allow people to get ready for Phase IV. So we will be back at 11:30.

8758 Nous allons prendre une pause de vingt minutes. Nous reviendrons donc à 11 h 30 pour la Phase IV de l'audience.

--- Upon recessing at 1110 / Suspension à 1110

--- Upon resuming at 1131 / Reprise à 1131

8759 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

8760 We will do all of Phase IV and complete this hearing before adjourning.

8761 Nous allons compléter la Phase IV d'un trait avant d'ajourner. Alors, pour que les gens soient au courant que c'est ce qu'on a l'intention de faire.

8762 Monsieur le Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

8763 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8764 In Phase IV, applicants reappear in reverse order to respond to all interventions filed on their application.

8765 The first applicant to appear will be Radio Nord Communications inc.


8766 M. BRIÈRE : Bonjour. Je suis Raynald Brière, donc, Président et Chef de l'Exploitation de Radio Nord Communications.

8767 Je vous présente, à ma droite, Francine Côté, Conseillère à la Direction; à la droite de Francine, Jean-Pierre Major, Directeur général des Services radio; et à ma gauche, Pierre Brosseau, Président et Chef de l'Exploitation.

8768 Dans cette dernière étape, qui conclut dont l'examen des différentes demandes de licence de radio pour Ottawa-Gatineau, nous voulons remercier sincèrement tous les intervenants, 75 personnes et organismes représentatifs de la vitalité de la région de la capitale nationale qui ont pris la peine de se manifester dans le cadre de cette audition.

8769 Nous avons bénéficier de tous les points de vue exprimés par ces intervenants. Tous ont appuyé le principe d'une station de radio, pop, rock, urbain, dans ce marché, pour différentes raisons : un meilleur équilibre linguistique des stations de langue française dans le marché, l'urgence de procurer une antenne aux jeunes de 18-34 ans de la région, un tremplin pour stimuler l'émergence des nouveaux talents de la région.

8770 Les intervenants qui se sont manifestés au soutien de notre proposition sont issus de différents milieux. Ainsi, les représentants du milieu académique de la région -- et ils sont nombreux -- sont intervenus pour se réjouir de l'intérêt que nous portons à traduire la réalité de la vie étudiante à notre antenne, à donner accès à notre station aux étudiants intéressés ainsi qu'aux émissions que nous avons prévues à l'horaire.

8771 L'appui de la Faculté des Arts et Communications de l'Université d'Ottawa, produite avec notre demande, et son intervention réfèrent spécifiquement à notre volet Radio Campus, à la collaboration que nous proposons au niveau de l'animation et à la tribune que nous voulons créer pour aborder les activités de la vie étudiante.

8772 D'autres comme la Cité collégiale et le Collège St-Alexandre font écho à ces propos de l'Université d'Ottawa. Le Directeur du Multi Collège de l'ouest du Québec insiste, pour sa part, sur la contribution de notre station à un meilleur équilibre linguistique des stations de radio dans le marché et à l'émergence de nouveaux talents.

8773 Le CÉGEP de l'Outaouais spécifie, entre autres, que notre station -- et je cite :

"l'aiderait à rejoindre sa clientèle et à valoriser chez les jeunes l'idée-même de s'instruire." (Tel que lu)

8774 Les artisans de la musique ont aussi produit des témoignages éloquents au soutien de notre projet.

8775 À titre d'exemple, l'Association des professionnels de la chanson et de la musique considère -- et je la cite :

"comme essentiel la venue d'une nouvelle station de radio francophone avec un contenu local à cent pour cent et déplore l'appauvrissement dramatique de l'offre musicale locale, qui a une influence directe sur la vie des artistes, sur la communauté francophone et sur la communauté franco-ontarienne." (Tel que lu)

8776 M. Normand D'Aoust, qui est gérant d'artistes et Vice-président de l'Alliance de l'industrie musicale, est convaincu que notre station favorisera l'émergence de nouveaux talents par rapport aux stations existantes, qui, dit-il, font de plus en plus appel au contenu réseau, qui n'aide en rien la promotion des artistes et de la culture régionale.

8777 Hans Levac, un artiste local, dénonce, pour sa part, l'absence de support local pour ses projets et ceux de son entourage musical, tout en appuyant notre projet.

8778 De nombreux agents dynamiques de la vie économique, politique et culturelle de la région de la capitale nationale nous ont aussi appuyés. Nous ne pouvons tous les nommer, mais ils sont représentatifs des valeurs et objectifs mis de l'avant par notre proposition, que ce soit pour l'Association des jeunes professionnels de l'Outaouais, Impératif français, la ville et le maire de Gatineau, Emploi-Québec Outaouais, la Commission de la Capitale nationale, le Réseau des femmes d'affaires et professionnelles de l'Outaouais, l'Association des centres de la petite enfance de la région, et les Jeunes Entreprises de l'Outaouais, que vous avez eu l'occasion d'entendre ce matin par la voix de M. Pierre Gravelle, qui a témoigné de la pertinence d'une radio pour les jeunes francophones 18-34 ans.

8779 L'ADISQ, dans son intervention écrite, s'est aussi réjouit de nos engagements significatifs, en soulignant notamment notre initiative en matière de contenu canadien, soit 45 pour cent.

8780 L'ADISQ a aussi noté, au paragraphe 162 de son intervention, la place que nous réservons à la nouveauté dans notre programmation musicale.

8781 L'ADISQ a aussi apprécié le niveau de contribution proposée au chapitre de développement de talents canadiens et l'effort que nous avons fait pour présenter des émissions consacrées aux créateurs et producteurs canadiens.

8782 L'ADISQ regrette, cependant, que notre contribution à MUSICACTION ne représente que le quart des contributions totales que nous proposons. Sur ce point, nous aimerions souligner que le fait que MUSICACTION refuse d'attribuer les contributions au secteur spécifique de la musique dans notre cas, la musique urbaine, a pour effet de limiter le montant de la contribution que nous pourrions souhaiter faire. Nous voulons que nos investissements en talents canadiens stimulent directement le genre musical que nous avons choisi.

8783 J'aimerais insister également sur le fait qu'aucune intervention contre notre projet n'a été produite au dossier du Conseil.

8784 Comme j'ai eu de l'occasion de le mentionner au cours de notre examen, la radio de langue française arrive à une croisée de chemins, où les joueurs indépendants comme nous peuvent agir comme vecteurs de la diversité, avec une façon de faire différente, certes, de celle des grands groupes consolidés, et ainsi contribuer davantage à l'enrichissement de la radio de langue française.

8785 En concluant, nous remercions tous ceux qui ont contribué à mieux comprendre notre proposition, particulièrement le Conseil et les membres du personnel. Merci beaucoup.

8786 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Voilà qui complète cette audience pour vous. Alors, nous vous remercions de votre coopération et nous passons au prochain.

8787 Monsieur le Secrétaire.

8788 M. BRIÈRE : Merci infiniment.

8789 LE SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Madame la Présidente.

8790 La requérante numéro 15, Genex Communications inc., a indiqué qu'elle ne comparaîtrait pas en Phase IV, as well as applicant number 1, 3077457 Nova Scotia Limited.

8791 So we will now hear from CKMW Radio Ltd.

8792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back.


8793 MR. EVANOV: Good morning. I am going to let Carmela Laurignano, our General Manager and Vice-President, reply.

8794 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you.

8795 I am quickly just going to respond to the CHRI FM intervention against CKMW Radio's application for the use of the 88.5 frequency.

8796 Just so that we are clear in terms of how we approached it, through a number of telephone conversations and in written correspondence with both messieurs Du Broy and Garbutt, they were kept apprised of our intention to use 88.5, which, upon analysis, showed that there was a potential for what apparently in the industry is called an "if" interference in an area of approximately three kilometres.

8797 The solution there is for both parties to live with it because the interference works both ways. In other words, it is not that one signal just penetrates the other contour but it goes both ways. So one solution would be for both of us to live with it because it is a hypothetical case. So there is the if. We put that proposal together to them.

8798 Our second proposal to them was that if there is an interference greater than that or if there is any complaints from their listeners that they are not able to hear the existing service, we would be prepared to install filters or take technical measures to help alleviate that.

8799 CHRI Radio confirmed that and it is on file both with Industry Canada and with the Commission. It was dated Tuesday, September 28th, wherein Mr. Garbutt replied that I have already sent you, Industry Canada and the CRTC a letter indicating that we are willing, with conditions, to agree to a mutual non-objection agreement between us. Because the area of potential interference it is of importance to ask that you revisit the situation should your client receive licence approval and, if possible, interference become too great.

8800 We do not anticipate any problems in that regard, but do wish to protect our area as much as feasibly possible. This letter was written to Brian Sawyer who is our broadcasting junior on that. So, I just want it to be clear for the record.

8801 That is pretty much all we have to say. We just want to thank the Commission very much, thank the staff very much for their great work, as usual, and it was great to see our fellow broadcasters.

8802 Just one last thing, Suzie Vinnick, the guitar player this morning whose music is going to blend very well with the format, wants to appear at every public hearing. As a result of her performance, she sold some CDs in the parking lot after that. So, it is amazing what --

8803 THE CHAIRPERSON: They keep you very busy, Mr. Evanov. You have to apply now in person.

8804 MS LAURIGNANO: That is right. So, it is amazing what happens when we give our artists and talent some play. So, thank you very much, we --

8805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, we did.

8806 MR. EVANOV: And we would like to in the future, on-air.

8807 MS LAURIGNANO: Well, it all begins with the leadership. So thank you, Madam Chair.

8808 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, this letter has the effect of altering or modifying the intervention because the date was 27, September. My understanding is the other letter is 28, September.

8809 MS LAURIGNANO: Their response was... their final agreement to the fact that they had no problem with the --

8810 THE CHAIRPERSON: Was 28, September.

8811 MS LAURIGNANO: 28th of September, that is right.

8812 THE CHAIRPERSON: And was that put on the file --

8813 MS LAURIGNANO: It was. It is in the public file and --

8814 THE CHAIRPERSON: As a reply?

8815 MS LAURIGNANO: Yes, and also the letter was copied to Mr... I can read it, it is right here --

8816 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, that is fine.

8817 MS LAURIGNANO:  -- Industry Canada.

8818 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is just a question of it is part of the public record.

8819 No questions? Thank you very much.

8820 MR. EVANOV: Thank you.

8821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for bringing the music.. not a full band though.

8822 THE SECRETARY: Madam Chair, just before Mr. Evanov leaves I would like to confirm that he was appearing on behalf of both applicants at this time?

8823 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

8824 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. We will now hear from Newcap Inc.

8825 THE CHAIRPERSON: Proceed when you are ready.

8826 MR. MAHEU: Thank you. Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff. I am quickly reintroducing myself. I am Mark Maheu, Executive Vice-President, Chief Operating Officer of Newcap Radio. With me is Rob Steel, the CEO of Newcap and also joining us this morning, Mr. John Matthews, our consulting engineer from Promethean.

8827 We appear before you this morning to respond to interventions filed in favour and against Newcap Radio's application for a new alternative rock FM station in Ottawa-Gatineau.

8828 Newcap Radio would like to acknowledge the intervention received from CIRPA, the Canadian Independent Record Producers Association. We are pleased to see that CIRPA's concerns about licensing of a new radio station mirror those of Newcap Radio, specifically in the areas of Canadian content, support for independent artists and for diversity of formats in the marketplace.

8829 Newcap Radio also acknowledges the interventions filed by CanWest Global and CHRI Radio Inc. in regards to our choice of the 88.5 FM frequency and potential concerns that may arise from our use of that frequency should we receive a licence. Newcap radio has responded to both interveners' concerns in writing on the technical issues and is confident any minor problems that potentially could arise from our frequency or use of this frequency can be easily resolved.

8830 We would also like to acknowledge the intervention we heard earlier this morning from Mr. Wright and Mr. Perkin relating to their proposed use of 88.5 for the Perth area. Should Newcap be licensed to operate on 88.5 we are prepared to provide technical assistance at our expense to the licensees in Perth.

8831 We would like to close by thanking the over 6,000 citizens of Ottawa-Gatineau who took time to write the CRTC in support of our application for a new alternative rock station. We are told the size and volume of positive interventions received is unprecedented. This overwhelming response serves to underscore the need for a radio station playing alternative rock in this market, which was also confirmed by a number of research studies conducted by several applicants before you, even applicants who are not seeking to receive a licence for an alternative rock format.

8832 The alternative rock format proposed by Newcap aims to reach out and connect with a very large and un-served constituency of radio listeners in their late teens to early 30s. This new format offering to the market will also enhance the opportunities for new local Canadian artists through Newcap Radio's significant Canadian talent development initiatives proposed as part of our application.

8833 We thank you for the opportunity to appear and we welcome any questions you may have.

8834 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford.

8835 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair. There was one intervention by someone named Shawn Scallen who did not appear... asked to appear and then didn't appear, but we had that bad weather yesterday, so we have to be forgiving. She indicated that she's a great fan of alternative music... alternative music, doesn't say alternative rock, it says alternative. But is speaking out against your application because she feels she gets enough on CKCU-FM, CHUO-FM and CBC's Brave New Waves. Could you... I mean, I haven't given you any notice of this, so if you can't that is fine, but do you have any idea how much of the same sort of format would be covered by those two stations and that show here in Ottawa?

8836 THE CHAIRPERSON: This may not be the best time to revisit the application. This is the reply stage.

8837 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I thought this was... I am asking him to reply to this intervention.

8838 MR. MAHEU: It is up to you, Madam Chair, I don't mind replying to Mr. Langford's question and I will certainly be brief. This also gives me the opportunity to say good question, which I wasn't able to do earlier.

8839 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes and, you know, strictly reply, because we don't... usually try to not use the reply stage to revisit the value of your proposition.

8840 MR. MAHEU: Correct.

8841 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I certainly echo that. I wasn't intending that at all, it was just a straight do you have any idea what the percentage would be or some sort of figure, someway to calculate it?

8842 MR. MAHEU: The overlap in music, and we certainly acknowledge the intervener's concerns, we believe the intervention was largely based on when you take a look at the word alternative or alternative rock, I believe the intervener was referring to alternative music in a very general sense. In other words, music not normally heard on conventional commercial radio.

8843 Much of the music that is played on the stations that you had mentioned would fall into that category, non-traditional types of music. There is very little overlap between that type of music and what we are proposing. We are proposing a very straightforward traditional type of alternative rock format, which would probably overlap with the types of music on the stations you mentioned, Commissioner Langford, in that five to 10 per cent area. So largely, new music that is not being played.

8844 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD : Thank you very much.

8845 MR. MAHEU : You are welcome.

8846 THE CHAIRPERSON : Thank you, Mr. Maheu, and thank you for not using the opportunity, which happens, and is not really the purpose of this phase. We thank you for your participation, this completes it for you at this time. Mr. Secretary, please.

8847 MR. MAHEU: Thank you very much.

8848 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. We will now hear Radio 1540 Limited.

8849 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back.

8850 MR. LOMBARDI: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and staff, good morning.

8851 For the record, my name is Lenny Lombardi and I am CEO of CHIN Radio/TV International. Next to me is Gary Miles who is our Programming Director of CHIN Ottawa CJLL, and next to him is Ed Ylanen, Vice-President and General Manager of CHIN Radio here in Ottawa.

8852 CHIN would like to take the opportunity to thank the many interveners that appeared before the Commission earlier today in support of our application. And we also would like to thank the many interveners that filed letters of support with the Commission.

8853 The appearing and written interveners have shown support for our application on the basis that we believe that this application makes a real attempt at increasing cultural diversity on radio by putting this kind of programming in the heart of the mainstream broadcasting. It blends spoken word and smooth jazz together in a unique format and brings new voices to the mainstream, utilizing a wealth of talent, third language broadcasters, journalists and professionals.

8854 Given the broad base support that we have found here and the fact that no party has opposed our application, we have decided not to present a reply at this time. We want to thank the Commission for the opportunity to present our application and we are available for any additional questions you may have.

8855 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Lombardi and your colleagues. This ends the last phase of the hearing for you. Mr. Secretary.

8856 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you.

8857 M. LeBEL: Merci, Madame la présidente.

8858 Nous entendrons maintenant 591991 B.C. Ltd. en réplique à ce moment-ci.

8859 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

8860 M. ARCAND: Bonjour.

8861 Madame la présidente, mesdames, messieurs les conseillers, membres du personnel du Conseil, mon nom est Pierre Arcand, président de Corus Québec, je suis accompagné aujourd'hui à ma droite de madame Danièle Boismenu, vice-présidente administration et contrôle de Corus Québec, et de notre conseillère juridique, maître Sylvie Courtemanche à ma gauche.

8862 Madame la présidente, nous sommes heureux de nous présenter devant vous lors de cette dernière phase de l'audience publique.

8863 Avant de vous présenter notre réplique, j'aimerais revenir sur une question que vous nous avz posée lors de notre comparution durant la première phase de cette audience.

8864 À ce moment, vous nous avez demandé si Corus serait prête à accepter une condition de licence qui nous obligerait à diffuser la portion de notre programmation musicale de catégorie 3, un minimum de 20 pour cent de musique vocale de langue française.

8865 La réponse est, bien sûr, oui. Nous tenons cependant à préciser que la station jazz de Montréal n'est pas contrainte à cette exigence concernant un minimum de musique vocale de langue française pour la programmation musicale de catégorie 3, mais malgré cela, la réponse est oui.

8866 Nous croyons pouvoir donc offrir dans ce marché une alternative radiophonique fort intéressante et des plus pertinentes.

8867 Vous avez devant vous, dans cette audience, une variété de demandes qui proposent un bon nombre de formats et qui cible divers groupes démographiques.

8868 Ces demandes proposent aussi une multitude d'initiatives d'envergure allant de modérées à très substantielles pour le développement des talents canadiens. Il est donc clair que vous avez beaucoup de choix.

8869 Corus estime que lorsque le Conseil procédera à son analyse des demandes dans cette instance, il devrait particulièrement être guidé par un des éléments de sa politique qui encadre son choix lors de l'octroi de nouvelles licences radiophoniques, soit l'état de la concurrence dans le marché francophone d'Ottawa/Gatineau.

8870 À toutes fins pratiques, il n'existe pas de concurrence dans le marché d'Ottawa/Gatineau. Le groupe Astral s'accapare des parts de marché qui excèdent 70 pour cent, presque 100 pour cent des revenus nationaux et au-delà de 90 pour cent des revenus locaux.

8871 Au courant de ces audiences, vous avez demandé aux requérantes des questions sur la stratégie que le Conseil devrait utiliser sur l'octroi de ses licences. En particulier, vous avez demandé aux gens d'identifier pour eux le scénario idéal, parfois le scénario que j'appellerais le scénario cauchemar.

8872 Pour Corus, le scénario idéal, évidemment, serait que nous obtenions cette licence pour opérer la station Smooth Jazz ou Jazz Velours dans le marché de Gatineau sur la fréquence 88,5.

8873 Pour nous, le scénario cauchemar, lui, serait que vous donniez une deuxième licence FM à Radio-Nord et que vous acceptiez le transfert d'actifs avec Astral, ce qui voudrait dire que Corus se retrouverait dans une situation où elle serait obligée de concurrencer deux groupes détenant chacune deux stations FM avec un seul AM.

8874 Dans le cas également de Radio-Nord, il est à noter que cette compagnie serait également appuyée, comme vous le savez, de deux puissants réseaux de télévision.

8875 Ceci dit, nous croyons qu'il y a un autre scénario possible, soit celui de donner une licence à Corus sur la fréquence 88,5 et une licence également à Radio-Nord.

8876 Hier, Radio-Nord vous a signalé des préoccupations concernant ce scénario puisqu'elle prétend que la station Jazz Velours de Corus affecterait la viabilité de la station CHLX.

8877 Nous voulons encore une fois simplement souligner au Conseil que la station Smooth Jazz de Corus cible un groupe démographique de 25-54, qui est très différent du groupe cible de CHLX qui est, en général, des gens de plus de 40 ans.

8878 La station Smooth Jazz de Corus, nous l'avons exprimé clairement et les études de marché le démontrent, cible l'auditoire de CIMF-FM et non de CHLX.

8879 Pour le marché anglophone d'Ottawa, la fréquence 98,5 offre une couverture adéquate du marché. En raison de ce fait, nous croyons que le Conseil pourrait autoriser sur cette fréquence n'importe laquelle des demandes qui cible ce marché et qui justifie l'octroi d'une licence.

8880 Enfin, le Conseil connaît sûrement les essais techniques de Corus à Montréal concernant l'utilisation du deuxième canal adjacent. Selon notre ingénieur dans le marché d'Ottawa/Gatineau, il serait possible d'utiliser un de ces deuxièmes canaux adjacents pour un nouveau service FM, probablement à partir de février 2006.

8881 Ceci permettrait au Conseil, si jamais le Conseil le jugeait opportun, d'autoriser un deuxième service radiophonique qui cible le marché anglophone d'Ottawa.

8882 Madame la présidente, le projet de Corus offrira donc une programmation purement à 100 pour cent locale, offrira de la diversité dans le marché et comportera des initiatives très substantielles pour le développement de nouveaux talents francophones dans le secteur du jazz.

8883 Mme DIONNE: Monsieur, excusez-moi de vous interrompre, mais est-ce que vous avez des répliques à des interventions? Dans le processus compétitif, c'est...

8884 M. ARCAND: On finit.

8885 Alors, nous sommes très fiers et nous envisageons avec beaucoup d'enthousiasme l'opportunité de lancer ce nouveau service si le Conseil nous donne son aval.

8886 Nous tenons à vous remercier, tous les membres du Conseil ainsi que le personnel du Conseil. Merci.

8887 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, monsieur Arcand.

8888 Il est évident que la Phase IV est une réplique, alors nous essayons d'empêcher une réaudition de chacune des demandes.

8889 Alors, il s'agit de faire attention de bien utiliser cette phase.

8890 Nous vous remercions de votre participation et voilà qui termine l'audience pour vous.

8891 M. ARCAND: Merci, Madame la présidente.

8892 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

8893 M. LeBEL: Merci Madame la présidente.

8894 J'inviterais maintenant la requérante Jean-Jacques Brunelle à répondre aux interventions à ce moment-ci.

8895 M. BOUCHER: Madame la présidente.

8896 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

8897 M. BOUCHER: Bonjour.

8898 Messieurs, mesdames les conseillers.

8899 Je me présente, Denis Boucher, je suis vice-président de la radio communautaire francophone D'Ottawa.

8900 Nous avons étudié les différentes interventions et dans le cas de Global Communications Limited, nous sommes entièrement disposés à discuter de solutions qui répondront aux besoins des deux parties.

8901 Il n'y a pas de problème là, si la Commission juge de nous accorder une licence et s'il y a des problèmes d'interférence, il n'y a pas de doute que nous allons collaborer.

8902 Deuxièment, les points de vue déposés par CHRI ne sont pas obtenus par notre ingénieur. C'est toujours au point de vue technique. Les interventions ont toutes été faites au point de vue technique.

8903 Nous partageons pleinement les craintes de cette entreprise, et dans le but de maintenir une harmonie et d'éviter tout problème, si problème il y a, nous sommes, encore là, disposés à discuter de toute démarche jugée essentielle pour assurer un service de première qualité, autant pour CHRI que pour la RCFO.

8904 Nous n'hésitons pas à nous vanter de notre force qu'est la diversité. Tout comme le Chinese Canadian National Council, the National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada et le Canadian Diversity Producers Association, nous croyons fortement à l'intégration et l'implication de nos communautés ethnoculturelles et travaillons ensemble pour nous assurer de répondre à cette demande. D'ailleurs, la grille-horaire a déjà prévu la diffusion d'émissions animées par des néo-Canadiens dont la langue d'usage est le français.

8905 Quant à l'intervention de Norm Wright et associés de Perth, Ontario, nous croyons que cette décision revient entièrement au CRTC. Nous n'avons pas à nous prononcer sur leur revendication.

8906 La RCFO a reçu une proposition d'affaires de la firme Commvesco Levinson-Viner, où cette importante maison de gestion immobilière d'Ottawa offre d'investir 250 000 $ sur sept ans, sous deux conditions : que leur projet de station radiophonique soit accepté par le CRTC; et que la RCFO s'engage à diffuser en français des chroniques, reportages ou bulletins traitant des activités touristiques, où le contenu éditorial sera totalement laissé à la discrétion de la RCFO.

8907 La firme Commvesco Levinson-Viner est reconnue depuis plusieurs années pour ses gestes philanthropiques dans la région de la capitale nationale. Comme vous le savez, la ville d'Ottawa est le théâtre de nombreuses activités touristiques tout au long de l'année. À notre avis, il est essentiel que la communauté francophone touristique soit aussi bien renseignée que la communauté anglophone touristique des activités qui se déroulent continuellement dans la capitale.

8908 La RCFO réitère sa demande pour établir une station radiophonique à Ottawa, puisque les stations actuelles ne répondent pas aux besoins des franco-Ontariens. On se rappelera que plusieurs stations diffusent à partir de Gatineau, et une autre offre en partie le service en provenance d'Ottawa, mais elle vise en grande partie le marché québécois.

8909 Enfin, nous croyons tellement aux besoins de cette station pour la communauté francophone d'Ottawa et de l'est ontarien que nous sommes prêts à accepter toute fréquence que voudra bien consentir le CRTC.

8910 Nous vous remercions de l'attention portée et surtout de la patience que vous avez manifestée à notre égard vendredi dernier, et nous vous en sommes éternellement reconnaissants. Merci beaucoup.

8911 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Merci, Monsieur Boucher, et voilà qui termine cette phase pour vous comme requérante.

8912 Monsieur le Secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

8913 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I will now ask John Wright and Douglas Kirk to reply to interventions at this time.

8914 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Allez-y.


8915 MR. WRIGHT: Shall I proceed? Thank you. Madam Chair, it looks like a lot of paper, but I will keep my comments as brief and as quick as I can, it will be under three minutes, I assure you.

8916 During Phase I ---

8917 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you will explain to us what all the paper is?

8918 MR. WRIGHT: Yes, I will.

8919 During Phase I, you suggested we look at our expense allocations and get back to the panel in the reply phase.

8920 Two issues were raised at that time: first, whether our programming expenses were disproportionately low relative to our administration expenses; and second, whether our programming expenses were adequate to produce the spoken word programming.

8921 We have reviewed our documents and I can assure you that the information we are presenting today does not alter in any way the financial projections which were provided within the application. We are merely trying to provide details in where we allocated things and where we have looked at in our generally accepted allocations. We are confident the information will prove to the Commission that we have provided adequate resources to fulfill our spoken word commitments.

8922 When we look at allocations, we looked at some other broadcasters, we looked at my past history with different companies, we looked at the annual returns for Statistics Canada, and we discovered that really, in our expense allocations within departments, we needed to adjust ours to match with what is generally accepted as normal allocations, and there are just five quick areas.

8923 Employee benefits. We put all the benefits under admin. Most allocate these under the departments that they fall in.

8924 Our dual-role people, our general manager, our general sales manager. We had all those expenses under admin. Most separate that and do some kind of split between the departments that they work at.

8925 In our station, the copy department reports to the sales manager, because they write commercials which comes under sales. It is generally accepted that copy is allocated under programming in most operations.

8926 Advertising, we had under sales. It is usually under promotion.

8927 Our Web site, we had under admin, and it is usually under programming.

8928 So we just took those same numbers, we didn't change them at all, we just reallocated them the way most stations would do it and the way the returns normally show. When we do that, our programming expenses as a percentage of our total expenses go from 32 per cent to 40 per cent. At the same time, our administration expenses, which were 36 per cent, dropped down to 26 per cent of our total.

8929 The total, of course, remains exactly the same, $1,351,000. There is no change.

8930 Our personnel count is the same, it is just reallocated. The job responsibilities are the same. We have not changed anything, we have just tried to match with what we think other applicants would have done. Eleven of our 18 and a half people are allocated to programming. We believe that the cost for staffing and programming is within market and industry norms.

8931 Then we looked at our 15 hours, approximately 15 hours of spoken word content, because the other concern was did we have the number of people to provide that content. It comes down to about four hours and 30 minutes of news and it is two hours of foundations and it is about eight hours of announcer talk.

8932 To fulfill our foundations of interest plan, each on-air person will be required to do one two-minute feature daily, and we don't think that is a very onerous task.

8933 And of course, in announcer talk, Ken Rockburn's experience in Ottawa working in talk radio. Ken will be running 10 to 12 minutes per hour interviewing experts from our foundations of interest, along with sort of appropriate members of community organizations that have interesting stories that he can weave in, uncovered by Brenda Tirrell.

8934 So the spoken word proposal before you is not, we don't believe, unusual or unique and can very easily be handled within the resources we have allocated and our own experiences in our communities.

8935 And lastly, Madam Chair, you asked about the actual programming and administrative expenses in Hamilton at CIWV. We reviewed those numbers and we can confirm with you today the expenses in our Ottawa application compare very favourably with our actual expenses in Hamilton.

8936 Through Doug's experience at The Wave, we believe our application best captures that reality of selling the 45 plus market. We have reflected those Hamilton revenues and experience in our revenue projections here. Wave is in the fourth year and so you will have those numbers soon and you can have a look at those when they come in. So we really believe our business plan is very, very sound.

8937 We would now like to take an opportunity to thank our interveners. We had 90 plus interveners. They all spent time and energy writing letters on our behalf and we really thank them.

8938 We thank the appearing intervener, Michael Williams, and the artist that joined us on our panel. They are the part that creates the passion.

8939 And we thank you, the Commission, for being so patient and so fair in your deliberations. So thank you very much.

8940 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wright, Mr. Kirk. This information will be put on the file. Thank you very much.

8941 Mr. Secretary, please.

8942 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

8943 I will now ask Global Communications Limited to reply at this stage.


8944 MS BELL: Good afternoon, Commissioners. For the record, my name is Charlotte Bell and I am joined by David Jones.

8945 We don't have any comments, except to thank the more than 200 interveners who wrote letters on our behalf.

8946 And also, we wanted to confirm that we filed the document that you asked for in Phase I, Madam Chair. So if you have any questions concerning that, we are here to answer them.

8947 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have no questions. Thank you, Ms Bell and Mr. Jones.

8948 Mr. Secretary, please.

8949 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair. I will now ask Astral Media Radio Inc. to reply at this time.

8950 MR. SABBATINI: Madam Chair, members of the Commission and members of the staff, my name is Luc Sabbatini, Executive Vice-President, Astral Media Radio. With me today are, at my right, Claude Laflamme, our Vice-President, Legal and Regulatory Affairs and, at my left, Geneviève Moreau, Music Director.

8951 We would like to thank the many interveners who supported our application. We were pleased to note that many of these interveners emphasized the major positive contributions to the community made by Astral Media Radio in the Gatineau market. They mentioned the community leadership of our station manager, our support to local charities, non-profit organizations and fundraising campaigns such as Centraide and la Fondation des maladies du coeur, to women's organizations like Option Femmes Emploi and CWC.

8952 They also mentioned our support of many social and cultural activities organized by the National Capital Commission. We sincerely thank them for their words of appreciation and we assure the Commission that if we are granted a licence for Eve FM this kind of community involvement will be extended to the Ottawa English-language market with the help of our advisory board.

8953 Many women also expressed great enthusiasm for our Eve FM music and programming. Our advisory board really struck a cord with local women as well. We kept hearing from women who love the idea and volunteered to work with us. We thank them all.

8954 No negative interventions were filed against Eve FM and no applicants intervened against Eve FM in Phase II, so we will mainly address CIRPA comments only.

8955 MS MOREAU: In its written intervention CIRPA mentioned the importance of Canadian content to the Canadian industry and the major role played by FACTOR in developing Canadian talent.

8956 Our Eve FM proposal answers these concerns in a number of ways. We offer $700,000 in CTD, all dedicated to eligible third parties, including $105,000 going to FACTOR. We are also proposing 40 per cent of Canadian content for our category two music, which will represent 95 per cent of our musical content.

8957 We would like to reiterate our commitment that one of every four Canadian songs on Eve FM will be a new release, meaning a song that has been released in the last six months. Sometimes these releases will be from a brand new artist, other times from a well-established artist and, in the majority of these cases, from Canadian artists who fall somewhere between these two extremes.

8958 We would like to explain why this commitment is important for the Canadian music industry and to the career development of Canadian artists.

8959 First, selling new albums, whether the first, third or fifteenth for an artist, is the economic base of the Canadian recording industry. Playing and promoting those albums in the weeks and months that immediately follow their release is therefore a major contribution to the success of that industry.

8960 Second, we want to emphasize that we cannot artificially divide Canadian artists in two groups, the well-established ones and the new artist releasing their first album. In fact, many Canadian artists may create and release three, four or five albums before they really make it, before their work is recognized and appreciated by a large public.

8961 Instant success with a first album is more the exception than the rule. So it is very important for artists to receive radio support at all stages of their career. This is especially true if their work is mainly appreciated by people over 35 years old because, unlike artists with their own fan base, these artists find the internet much less helpful as a promotional tool.

8962 Third and finally, it is important to the financial health of many artists that their songs from previous years or decades continue to be heard on radio. This airplay keeps them in front of loyal fans and introduces their work to new audiences while generating royalties, which are an important revenue stream for artists. This is also what Eve FM will do since an important part if its musical content will be from the 1960s and 1970s.

8963 Those are the reasons why we strongly believe that our concept, as well as our commitment to Canadian content and new releases, will constitute a major contribution to Canadian talent development and to the health of the Canadian music industry.

8964 MR. SABBATINI: In conclusion, Madam Chair, Commissioners, we want to reiterate that Eve FM is far more than simply a new music format, it is a new radio concept, a unique blend of soft music and lifestyle-oriented spoken words exclusively targeted to women 35-64. It will be highly reflective of the local community and our female listeners' needs. It will be a kind of meeting place for Ottawa women.

8965 Oh! Should I start again?

8966 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you should end soon.

8967 MR. SABBATINI: It will be highly reflective of the local community and our female listener needs. It will be a kind of a meeting place for Ottawa women from all cultural and social backgrounds that will help to shape a more dynamic community life.

8968 And for all these reasons, we hope that the Commission will grant us the privilege to bring Eve FM alive. Thank you very much.

8969 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. This ends your participation in this hearing.

8970 Mr. Secretary, please.

8971 LE SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Madame la Présidente.

8972 Je demanderais maintenant à Radio Ville-Marie à répondre aux interventions.

8973 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Messieurs, j'espère que vous avez entendu mon commentaire plus tôt. Il s'agit de la réplique en ce moment et pas une revente de votre formule à vous.

8974 Est-ce que vous êtes satisfaits que c'est une réplique que vous nous présentez?

8975 M. FAHMI : Oui, je pense que nous vous répliquons à ce qui a été posé comme question, et une réponse à tout cela.

8976 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Alors, tenez ça en ligne de compte, parce que si nous ne faisons pas attention à ce que nous avons à la réplique, c'est une revente de chaque présentation, avec pas de possibilité de réplique par les concurrents.

8977 Alors, allez-y, en tenant ça en ligne de compte, parce que, autrement, c'est une roue qui ne finira jamais si les gens revendent leur demande.

8978 Est-ce que vous voulez quelques minutes pour y penser, pour qu'on ne vous interrompe pas, parce que ça m'a l'air un peu... Ça ne m'a pas l'air d'une réplique tout au long.

--- Pause

8979 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous comprenez?

8980 M. ROY : Oui, oui, très bien, oui, oui, oui, très bien.

8981 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Vous comprenez l'inquiétude que nous avons parce que c'est une audience compétitive. Alors, normalement, moi, j'essaie de rappeler aux gens -- j'aurais peut-être dû le faire au début -- de faire bien attention, que c'est la réplique. Ce n'est pas le moment de refaire une demande.

8982 M. ROY : L'ensemble. Parfait.

8983 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Merci.

8984 M. ROY : Alors, ici Jean-Guy Roy, directeur général de Radio Ville-Marie. Je suis en compagnie de Jacques Faucher, président de la Coopérative de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais et de monsieur René Laprise. Si, madame, je m'égare, vous m'arrêterez. Très bien. Merci.

8985 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Je me fie à vous pour le faire sans interruption.

8986 M. ROY : O.K. Parfait. Alors, madame, au terme de cette audience, nous désirons réaffirmer la pertinence et l'importance de l'implantation de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais et ça, au nom des milliers de personnes qui ont appuyé le projet, mais aussi en raison du contenu unique de cette radio francophone.

8987 En tant que requérante, Radio Ville-Marie Montréal a pu préciser devant vous le 1er décembre l'approche de son développement régional à travers le Québec. Nous tenons à redire aujourd'hui, nos points cruciaux de ce projet.

8988 D'abord, c'est un projet ajusté. C'est la deuxième fois que RVM se présente devant vous pour l'obtention d'une fréquence en Outaouais. Suite au premier refus, nous avons tenu à l'automne 2001...

8989 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Non. Je regrette, mais il s'agit d'une réplique en ce moment.

8990 Ce que nous allons faire, c'est que nous allons entendre... nous avons d'autres requérants et vous donner une chance de vous ajuster et de nous revenir en réplique.

8991 M. ROY : Parfait. Très bien. Merci.

8992 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Parce qu'on ne le permet pas aux autres, alors ce n'est pas possible de refaire la vente de sa propre demande. Alors, on vous rappelle à la fin, vous aurez un peu le temps de vous ajuster.

8993 M. ROY : Merci. Très bien. Merci.

8994 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Merci. Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

8995 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, madam Chair. I will now ask Christian Hit Radio Incorporated to respond to intervention at this point.


8996 MR. TURCOTTE: Madam Chair, I'm Jerry Turcotte, of course, the chair of CHRI Inc. We are replying to comments raised by both the Commission and others.

8997 First, madam Chair, you did ask for demographics. We provided demographics based on the Ontario Minister of Finance two studies: 1999 - 2004.

8998 The 1999 study is in table 1 and it covers the Ottawa Carleton Region. We have taken the liberty of adding up the 45 plus projections there.

8999 All demographic studies, of course, are based on certain conditions and you could check the web site for their conditions. But certainly it's in step with all the G-7 projections.

9000 Commissioner Langford asked yesterday, why do we need a religious radio station since we have religious television?

9001 For the information of the Commission, I have just left in September as president of the Communications Research Centre which had the only broadcast laboratory in North America and television is a superb visual media. Radio is a mobile media in the main and that's really why and it certainly speaks in my personal experience to the type of reach that we want to accomplish.

9002 It's also a great social equalizer. You don't need a $2,000.00 computer, you don't need to pay a monthly fee, et cetera, et cetera, $15.00 gets you a radio. Bob.

9003 MR. DuBROY: Good afternoon. Commissioner Langford expressed an interest in our March for Jesus Survey which we conducted about nine years ago, which is a little longer ago.

9004 The conclusion of that, as you will see in Charts 2 and 3, where there is an under-consumption of radio particularly among Christians and in that group we surveyed a sample of the 17,000 participants or 18,000.00, but more than half of the artist that they were mentioning were NSPO-FM artists, not CHIR-FM. So, we can see that there is a demand in the 45 plus demographic that we are not meeting right now with CHRI-FM.

9005 I should point out also that the Bill Gader Trio or Bill Gader is one of those Inspo-FM artist chart toping artist in christian music and the christian music covers a wide variety of styles, but as a group in North America outsells jazz and classical music.

9006 One of our artists, Michael W. Smith, performed before the Corel Centre, a crowd of 17,000 people six years ago. Bill Gader cancelled his Corel Centre performance, but played to a large crowd at the Air Canada Centre because they have radio support there from WDCX.

9007 MR. TURCOTTE: We are prepared to commit as well to some COLs, 50 per cent spoken word -- this was Mr. Langford's request -- 10.5 hours per week, balanced programming, a minimum of 12 per cent Cancon with respect to sub-category 35, a minimum of 80 per cent sub-category 35.

9008 MR. WILSON: Excuse me. As you may have heard us speak to some of the other applicants, at Phase IV it's to reply to interventions.

9009 MR. TURCOTTE: These were interventions that were made by the Commissioner, as we understood. Anyway...

9010 MR. WILSON: I'm in the hands of the Chair.

9011 MR. TURCOTTE: That's fine. If we have grooved in that, we apologize. We were asked...

9012 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are these numbers on the file? This is your application?

9013 MR. DuBROY: The Canadian content. Madam Chair, the Canadian Content commitment was made not the 10.5 hours of balance programming per se, but...

9014 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the rest represents your commitments?

9015 MR. DuBROY: Yes, these are commitments.

9016 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you are just stating that you would accept them as conditions of licence?

9017 MR. DuBROY: Correct. They were in the proposal, but now they become commitments.

9018 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well proceed with the care that counsel just...

9019 MR. TURCOTTE: Trying hard to. It was raised about a balanced programming and we have committed to use the host of the ancient faiths in the Hebrew scriptures, you met Rabbi Fine last week, as a committee to promote balancing and we keep working this issue because it's a pretty complex one.

9020 A number of issues raised on open line shows, we promote minority participation by every means available on air, et cetera, et cetera, web sites, networking with other groups. And we will, of course, regarding open line in syndicated shows, we are complying with the policy.

9021 We were asked how we would actually physically do that. We will have briefing sessions regarding the station's legal regulatory obligations with our on-air personnel and the rest you can read there, but we will have a process to make sure that people know what's required. We will have a process to make sure that you could pull objectionable stuff in time, which was raised. Bob.

9022 MR. DuBROY: We also reviewed the process for selecting syndicated programs and pulling them again if there is an objection, spot checking from our technician, on-line checking. There will always be a program in hand to replace an objectionable program.

9023 And we reiterated the policy here which we weren't going to cite, you know it well already.

9024 Commissioner Langford asked about a break-down about the 13 hours of non religious programming per week. It is as he surmised, mostly news, but it also included Vatican news reports which are much like the BBC World Service News and we only rarely are religious spoken word.

9025 Mitsou of ASTRAL said that Eve-FM would be concerned with the woman's soul. I would just like to add that we certainly would be too.

9026 On the question of Rob Dickson's comments on para church organizations. Again, Commission Langford asked if we would address that, regarding para church. We have given free ad campaigns to the Mission for men, the Shepherd of Good Hope, St. Vincent-de-Paul Society which Wanda Hartlin mentioned this morning, Jericho Road, Ottawa Inter-city Ministries who is currently collecting winter street survival kits for the homeless from our listeners. That's true CHRI-FM, we will do the same with NSPO-FM.

9027 We just had a campaign with Compassion Canada last week, 99 children were sponsored. We do more with NSPO-FM, we are also committed with the Canadian Bible Society and they could, in fact, produce programming for NSPO-FM.

9028 And there was the question of interference from CKMW, their proposed uses of 88.5 and 98.5 FM. I have to be a little qualified here. The 88.5-FM, IF frequency... the intermediate frequency interference issue is a minor one with respect to CKMW. So, that really was secondary and we didn't bring it up extensively in Phase III, but their use of 98.5 as a form of interference with them as a third adjacency problem with CHRI existing 99.1, I must say that that objection is still on the table.

9029 Now, the lady who spoke of a conversations with us and contact 3 million letters and so on, I have no recollection of that. I believe she is mistaking me for Vic Garbutt at Valley Heritage Radio in Renfrew, with whom even we had an agreement of mutual non-objection because they're a close frequency to ours. I believe we're assigned 98.7.

9030 And I am not faulting the lady. I know it's very complicated proceedings, many players, but it's just a clarification that we hadn't had contact with them on this.

9031 MR. TURCOTTE : We were asked who we could live with and we can live with any and all of the applicants. No one seems to be objecting to NSPO-FM getting a licence. We do make suggestion how the Commission they want to do it, I won't repeat it here.

9032 We did have some comments made by John Wright and Doug Kirk, but we would like to point out that... and it had to do with them being the only locally owned managed organization. It's incorrect. Christian Hit Radio Inc. is the 100 per cent locally owned and managed group before you in these proceedings.

9033 We do not report to a larger organization. Radio in Ottawa is all we currently do.

9034 I think, madam Chair, that wraps our comments on the interjections.

9035 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I hope you were not distressing too many people, but we have to try to make sure that the rules work equitably for everybody.

9036 MR. TURCOTTE: No, no. And I agree with that.

9037 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Secretary, please.

9038 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, madam Chair.I will now ask Levinson & Associates to respond to intervention at this time.


9039 MR. LEVINSON: I just want to say that in light of a desire to limit our talk to simply responding to interventions, I will not be reading the full of what you have been handed right now. I'll limit it to responding to interventions.

9040 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I invite you to take your time and make sure that whatever fits is put on the record. If you hesitate, we'll wait, that's fine too.

9041 MR. LEVINSON: Good morning or afternoon, madam Chair and Commissioners. I'm Michael Levinson and I'm joined here with Wayne Plunkett, Manuel Canales, Mike McCann and Christina Hancock.

9042 As we are getting the last word at the hearing, we wish to thank the CRTC for a fair hearing of our application.

9043 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have the last word.

9044 MR. LEVINSON: Actually, my wife usually gets the last word, but...

9045 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, there is Eve.

9046 MR. LEVINSON: With regard to the intervention made by Christian Hit Radio in Phase II, they believe that our low power application is an under-utilization of the frequency. We believe that the format as we propose will become an essential service to the Ottawa Gatineau Region.

9047 We believe the decision that the Commission must make is which application best serves the need at the market place and brings diversity of voice and ownership into the radio landscape.

9048 Our dynamic Capital information radio format that promotes what to see, do and all that is best in the region and has to offer in a community that currently has no such service as a Nations Capital is a major tourist destination directly in need of such a service compared to a second niche format radio station.

9049 We have the issue in terms of utilization of frequency should not be based on high power versus low power, but ultimately the applicant that best meets the goals of the Commission in providing the best choice for the community.

9050 They suggest alternative frequencies of 99.7, 101.9 and 104.7. We know the 99.7 is a third adjacent frequency on the other side of CHRI's present 99.1 and, therefore, their concern about third adjacent interference, it does not make sense to propose this frequency.

9051 With regard to 101.9 or as we identified 101.7 and 104.7, these are the two dropping frequencies that we had identified as potentially viable alternatives should the Commission, in their wisdom, decide to award us a licence in principle.

9052 If anyone should have concerns about third adjacent interference, it should be us with a low power station versus their high power station. We do not have such concerns.

9053 They say our down-town location is part of the issue. As a matter of interest, we just want to mention their technical brief for the high power service whatever transmitter located at 1375 Prince of Wales Drive, which is outside the down-town core. The ideal situation, however, would be for both Capital information radio and Christian Hit Radio to achieve our licensing goals.

9054 We appreciate the intervention done by Michael Masson from the Old Forge. They certainly provide extremely valuable service. He was asked what impact he thought there would be on our ability to disseminate the information if we are a low power versus high power.

9055 We want to recap for the record the comments made by Joseph Sadoun, our engineer, on this issue in Phase I of the proceedings. He said that our application as submitted, as low power, would have a reach of 135,000 people. A class A high power station would have a reach of over 950,000 people.

9056 From our perspective, the question is not whether our ability to disseminate the information would be impacted. The real question is how important is the broader reach of the additional 850,000 people towards our ability to best meet the needs of our mandate and those of the community.

9057 Of course, you also bear in mind that in addition to the resident population, Ottawa has over 7,000,000 visitors per year.

9058 We are comfortable with the launch of a service that would be limited and reached to the core tourism areas of Ottawa and Gatineau.

9059 To use the vernacular of the last few days, the best case scenario for us would be to be granted a licence for a Capital information radio as a non conventional low power station as dealt with at this hearing with no impediment to subsequently apply for or make our case to optimise the use of the frequency at some future date.

9060 We noted with amused interest that at least two of the full scale music formats applicants expressed no concern with having Capital Information Radio licensed and that by default, there is no negative comments put on the public record that any of the other applicants or existing broadcasters on the principle of having a tourism information station our unique format licensed to serve Ottawa Gatineau.

9061 Just to emphasize that we are not a music driven station, music is incidental to our primary goal of promoting what to see, do and what's best for the Ottawa Gatineau Region.

9062 It's a matter of interest that today when we had a musical demonstration of an artist, that it clearly illustrates what we are getting at in that if I were to announce on the radio that so and so was performing, people may or may not go see them perform.

9063 To be able to hear our selection of music dramatically changes the interest and, therefore, I think this is a good example of the benefit of including the musical content with our spoken word to promote the tourism activities that one can do in the region.

9064 We, therefore, feel that we could serve the portion of the transient and current population of the National Capital Region that would find our combination of spoken word and contemporary music appealing and informative, without causing any concern with existing stations and those other licences at this hearing.

9065 Therefore, in conclusion, the Commission has obviously seen the value of previously licensing over 70 tourist information stations in many scattered parts of that vast country, the time has come to extend this pattern to our Capital City, the fourth largest market in Canada with all the accompanying benefits that were previously outlined in our written application and opening presentation of Phase I with the financial resources, knowledge and support of the market, and above all enthusiasm will get the job done.

9066 I also want to inject right now and say that the application for the clarification of record is not being made by Comvesco Levinson & Viner, but as Levinson & Associates OBCI and there are common principles between the organizations, but it is not the real estate company making this application.

9067 We thank you for your consideration of our application and look forward to the results of careful deliberation.

9068 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Levinson. Mr. Secretary, please.

9069 LE SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, madame la présidente. Je redemanderais à Radio Ville-Marie s'il est prêt à répliquer à ce moment-ci.

9070 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Nous vous attendons. Je regrette un peu de vous avoir bouleversé, mais j'espère que vous comprenez le but de nous assurer que l'équité est distribuée à peu près de la même façon à tout le monde.

9071 M. ROY : Très bien, madame. Nous nous excusons de la mauvaise interprétation de la Phase IV.

9072 LA PRÉSIDENTE : Non. Nous sommes là pour vous remettre à l'oeuvre.

9073 M. ROY : Sans doute que nous ne sommes pas de taille avec les autres, sans doute, compte tenu de notre projet. Toutefois, nous avons trois répliques à faire, trois courtes répliques aux questions soulevées dans la première partie.

9074 À savoir si nous sommes ouverts à des fréquences plus faibles, oui, nous l'avons déjà exprimé dans une lettre du 29 juin, alors nous sommes ouverts à cela. Notre ingénieur a déjà spécifié trois petites fréquences.

9075 Au contenu... la deuxième réplique est sur le contenu régional, je laisse mon collègue vous en partager.

9076 M. LAPRISE : Nous avons trouvé que lors de la première phase des audiences, la perception qu'on a semblé avoir du contenu régional potentiel de deux heures-semaine de Radio Ville-Marie a été perçue peut-être comme réducteur, comme très faible par rapport aux autres compétiteurs qui demandent la même fréquence que nous.

9077 Par ailleurs, nous aimons réaffirmer que le contenu de Radio Ville-Marie, même s'il est « montréalais » si on pourrait dire, comme ça a été mentionné par Genex en parlant des stations qui envoyaient la production de Montréal dans la région, nous croyons que ce contenu, par son originalité, transcendent les frontières de Montréal et que, par conséquent, vient s'ajouter à deux heures de production régionale tout à fait de façon intéressante, sans compter tout ce qui peut être inséré dans le contenu général en terme de reportages faits sur la région.

9078 Alors, voilà, et la dernière intervention de monsieur Roy.

9079 M. ROY : La dernière intervention serait une question soulevée lors de la comparution, sur la Décision 2001.

9080 Alors, la décision 2001 n'a pas été perçue pour nous comme un refus, mais, au contraire, comme une invitation à ajuster notre projet à quelque chose de plus ajusté à notre réalité en fonction des fréquences disponibles et d'une dimension plus modeste de notre projet. C'est pourquoi nous avons représenté cette demande-là en fonction des suggestions qui nous ont été faites par le CRTC.

9081 Voilà nos trois répliques, madame, concernant la question de la puissance faible de fréquence, le contenu régional et aussi la Décision de 2001.

9082 Nous tenons à remercier les milliers de personnes qui ont appuyé ce projet dans la région.

9083 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Vous êtes monsieur Roy?

9084 M. ROY : Oui.

9085 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et vous êtes satisfait que nous vous avons donné l'opportunité de participer à la Phase IV.

9086 M. ROY : Oui.

9087 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

9088 M. ROY : Merci.

9089 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. Et voilà qui termine, monsieur le secrétaire, la phase IV?

9090 THE SECRETARY: Indeed, it does, madam Chair, but before you pull the plug, I would like to indicate for the record that there are a number of non appearing applications on the agenda of this hearing.

9091 Interventions were received on some of these applications, they will be considered by the panel and decisions will be rendered at a later date. And this, madam Chair, does complete the agenda of this public hearing. Thank you.

9092 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before adjourning this hearing, I wish to thank all the participants for their cooperation and input. I also thank my colleagues for their support, our staff for their invaluable help, the Court stenographer for keeping our words on the page and the Interpreter for keeping them in both languages.

9093 We wish you all a safe trip home and a Merry Christmas or a Happy Chanukah, whichever works.

9094 This hearing is now adjourned.

9095 Nous remercions tous les participants à cette audience, nous vous souhaitons une rentrée confortable à la maison et nous vous souhaitons un Joyeux Noël. Cette audience est maintenant ajournée.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1242 /

L'audience se termine à 1242



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