ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Gatineau (Québec) - 2004-12-01

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Best Western Cartier Best Western Cartier

Champlain A & B Room Pièce Champlain A et B

131 Laurier Avenue 131, rue Laurier

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

December 1, 2004 Le 1^er decembre 2004

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseillier

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Pierre Lebel Secretary / Secrétaire

James Wilson Legal Counsel /

Valérie Dionne Conseillers juridiques

Steve Parker Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)

November 2, 2004 Le 2 novembre 2004

PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

3077457 Nova Scotia Limited 6 / 24

Levinson and Associates (OBCI) 41 / 235

Christian Hit Radio Inc. 94 / 542

Radio Ville-Marie 188 / 1042

Ottawa, Ontario

--- Upon commencing on Wednesday, December 1, 2004

at 0930 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 1^er

décembre 2004 à 0930

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning; bonjour. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. Bienvenue à cette audience publique. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing.

2 Je suis Andrée Wylie, vice-présidente radiodiffusion du CRTC et je présiderai cette audience. Les autres membres du panel sont mes collègues, à ma toute droite, Andrée Noël, conseillère régionale du Québec et, à ma droite, Ronald Williams, conseiller régional de l'Alberta et des Territoires du Nord-Ouest. À ma gauche, la conseillère Joan Pennefather et, à sa gauche, le conseiller Stuart Langford.

3 L'équipe du Conseil qui nous accompagne se compose maintenant de Steve Parker qui est pris sur la route près de Masson, mais qui sera ici plus tard. Il est le gérant de l'audience, mais nous avons décidé de procéder sans lui pour quelques minutes et nous sommes accompagnés aussi de James Wilson et de Valérie Dionne qui sont nos conseillers juridiques pour cette audience ainsi que de Pierre Lebel qui est le secrétaire de l'audience. N'hésitez pas à communiquer avec eux au sujet de toute question relative au déroulement de l'audience.

4 We invite you to not hesitate to check with the staff and if you have any procedural questions.

5 On the 22nd of January 2004 the Commission issued a call for applications for broadcasting licence to carry on a radio programming undertaking to serve Ottawa, Ontario and Gatineau, Quebec.

6 At this hearing, we will be looking at 16 applications to operate radio stations in these markets. The panel will evaluate these applications with a view to ensuring that they meet the cultural, economic and social objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act.

7 Our criteria for evaluating the applications will include competition and diversity of editorial voices in the markets concerned, the quality of the applications and the potential impact of a new entrant in these markets.

8 We will also be looking at the ability of the Ottawa and Gatineau markets to support new radio stations, the availability of financial resources of each applicant and the proposed initiatives for Canadian talent development.

9 We will be hearing the applicants in the following order : 3077457 Nova Scotia Limited; Levinson & Associates; Christian Hit Radio Inc.; Radio Ville-Marie; Radio Rideau Inc.; Astral Média Radio Inc.; Global Communications Limited; John Wright and Douglas Kirk; CKMW Radio Limited; Jean-Jacques Brunelle; 591991BC Limited; Radio 1540 Limited; Newcap Inc.; CKMW Radio Inc; Genex Communications Inc. and finally, Radio-Nord Communications Inc.

10 Cette audience devrait durer environ huit jours. Nos journées débuteront à 900 et se termineront, avant 6 h 00, avant 1800. Si un changement à l'horaire survient, nous vous en aviserons aussitôt.

11 So, we expect this hearing to take seven to eight days. We will begin each morning at 9:00 a.m. and finish before 6:00 p.m. You will be notified, however, if there is any change to the schedule.

12 Lorsque vous êtes dans la salle d'audience, vous devez désactiver vos téléphones cellulaires et vos télé-avertisseurs car il y a risque d'importuner les participants ainsi que les membres du Conseil. Nous comptons sur votre collaboration à cet effet à tout moment pendant que vous êtes dans la salle d'audience.

13 So, you must turn off your cell phones and beepers, we insist, when you are in the hearing room because they are an unwelcome distraction for participants and Commissioners and we are counting on the cooperation of all of you at all times in this regard.

14 Before beginning the hearing, I will invite the secretary, monsieur Lebel, to explain the procedures that we will be following. I must say I'm quite delighted that Hull is now Gatineau, so I won't be caught saying "Hottawa-Hull".

15 Monsieur Lebel.

16 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, madam Chair. Before we begin just a few housekeeping matters, first, I would like to indicate that the Commission's examination room is located in the Cartier Room, one floor down from the hearing room. Public files of the applications being considered at this hearing can be examined there and the telephone number, as indicated in the agenda is Area Code 819-934-5441.

17 Secondly, there is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the Court Reporter at the table to my left in the centre. If you have any questions about how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the Court Reporter during a break, for information.

18 Now, madam Chair, we will proceed with the appearing applications on the agenda and since they are competing, we will proceed as follows: first, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make its presentation. Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

19 Lors de la phase 2, les requérants comparaissent à nouveau dans le même ordre afin d'intervenir aux demandes compétitives si elles le souhaitent. Une période de 10 minutes est allouée pour ce faire. Des questions du Conseil pourraient suivre chaque intervention.

20 In phase 3, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing intervention. Again, questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

21 Dans une quatrième phase, les requérants comparaissent à nouveau dans l'ordre inverse pour répondre à toutes les interventions qui ont été déposées à leur demande. Une période de 10 minutes est prévue pour ce faire et, encore, des questions du Conseil pourraient suivre.

22 And now, madam Chair, we will proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 3077457 Nova Scotia Limited for a licence to operate in English language low power FM tourist radio programming undertakings in Ottawa. The new station would operate on frequency 96.5 megahertz on channel 243LP with an effective radiated power of 50 watts.

23 Appearing for the applicant, Messrs Jack McGraw, Al Mackay and James McLeod. Gentlemen, you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

24 MR. McGAW: Good morning, madam Chair, Commissioners.

25 First, let me introduce our panel. My name is Jack McGaw, president of the company as well as producer, announcer, manager and whatever. My career in broadcasting began back in 1954 at CHWK Radio in Chilliwack and it continues at stations in Vancouver, then with BC-TV, CHCH-TV, CBC Toronto and CTV Toronto as a director and executive producer of W5, a producer of Live It Up, which is a consumer affairs program. I also produced a number of national tests and documentary specials for CBC and CTV between 1967 and 1991. I now live in Halifax, happily, with my wife.

26 My colleagues are L. MacKay and James MacLeod. Mr. MacKay is a 30-year broadcast veteran of radio and television. He has been vice president and station manager at CJOH-TV in Ottawa and is well-known to the Commission through his participation in the Action Group on violence in television where he played a leading role in developing the Canadian television program reading system and the on-screen ratings icons.

27 Mr. MacLeod, who is General Manager of the company and a technical expert, will be available should there be any questions about our technology or production systems.

28 We are here before you today as licensed operators of four low-power tourist radio stations in the Maritimes, in Halifax, St. Stephen, New Brunswick, the Confederation Bridge linking P.E.I. and New Brunswick, and Amherst, Nova Scotia, and soon we expect to be on the air in Fredericton and Moncton, New Brunswick, following the Commission's recent decisions for those markets.

29 However, since we were not required to appear at hearings before those licences were issued, we look upon this as an excellent opportunity to describe to the panel in some detail how our stations operate and what information they provide.

30 It is a new innovative form of community-based broadcasting that performs a valuable and often essential public service, so valuable, in fact, that we have been allowed to share with provincial transportation authorities in three provinces precious sign space on limited-access highways to inform drivers of our service.

31 Ours is a radio station in a box, you might say, a computer box. We broadcast a program loop, repeating every 10-15 minutes pre-recorded voice reports or audio files in the form of MP3 files and they comes from a number of different sources.

32 The files are sent through the Internet to the box at the site of a transmitter and played according to a log that is changed twice per day. Now, many of these files get there automatically through proprietary software. Some are updated daily, some two or three times a day and some every few minutes.

33 For instance, the weather reports for the region served by each station are audio files created for us by Environment Canada, which we retrieve and then put on the air. They are updated on our system within two minutes of being updated by Environment Canada.

34 The border wait-times being broadcast on our station in St. Stephen, New Brunswick are changed when customs officers change the information on the Customs Web site, which is normally every hour, 24 hours a day.

35 The Confederation Bridge reports from our station at the fixed link are pre-recorded in both official languages and updated from the bridge control centre when conditions on the bridge warrant, and that could be several times a day.

36 Software we developed recently retrieves current Halifax International Airport arrival and departure information from the airport's Web site and converts it into a voice file for broadcast, and it is updated every five minutes.

37 We retrieve the Bank of Canada dollar exchange rate in the same way and convert it to a voice file expressed as the worth of a U.S. dollar in Canadian funds, which is a service for visitors to the country.

38 Other proprietary software is also designed for access to the service by people who want or need to communicate important, and sometimes vital, public information. We instal it with a microphone in computers for the emergency measures organizations, the RCMP, local and regional police forces, city hall communications officials, bridge and transit authorities, provincial transportation communicators, search and rescue authorities, Parks officials, and we have people who deliver beach-pollution warnings and ice-thickness reports, and for both local and regional tourist personnel.

39 When a situation warrants, a person in one of those offices can send their brief message for broadcast in less time than it takes to boot up a computer. Some, such as the EMO, Emergency Measures Organization, and police officials, are permitted direct access. So their files go to the server and are broadcast within minutes in the next loop. Others, such as some tourist personnel, are given only indirect access, which allows us to vet them or edit them before placing the report in the loop.

40 In addition, we have our own broadcast facilities and a stable of freelance writers and announcers who provide written or voice material on a regular basis. We estimate that about 80-90 per cent of the files at each transmitter site would be changed at least daily.

41 That is how we broadcast and it dictates what we broadcast, which we would define as 35 per cent safety-related and 65 per cent community-related information. It is intended primarily to provide travellers, both visiting and resident, reliable and useful information.

42 Our priority is delivering current weather, road, police and other emergency information, followed by news of events, festivals, attractions and historic anecdotes, and one of our most popular feature is the smile of the day.

43 We would like to stress that our music is incidental, comprised of themes and bridges, and represents no more than 5 per cent or about 45 seconds in a 15-minute loop. We don't compete with stations that want less talk and more music. We choose to offer less music and more talk, and our talk is succinct and useful.

44 We have demonstrated to the departments of Transportation and Public Works in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island that we are in part an intelligent transportation delivery system. Consequently, all have agreed to manufacture and instal appropriate signage on major highways within the primary signal contour of our four existing stations.

45 We believe the service we wish to establish in Ottawa will receive the same support from the Transportation Department authorities in Ontario and in the City of Ottawa.

46 We look upon our role in broadcasting as partnering with public agencies to communicate public information. This became very clear to us after Hurricane Juan struck Halifax in September last year. We realized we had a unique role in emergency communications because of the way we deliver information.

47 The city was virtually shut down by a combination of power failures and disrupted transportation. Radio, which could be heard by residents over battery-powered receivers in the dark, was the only mass communications tool available to Emergency Measures Organization officials.

48 Unfortunately, the storm struck on a weekend when most, if not all, the conventional Halifax radio stations were on automated programming with few staff on hand. We were the only station that was able to react quickly and deliver an uninterrupted flow of emergency messaging, repeated frequently and updated easily by EMO personnel. Throughout the Halifax Regional Municipality, we became a kind of island of relevant and critical situation in a sea of recorded music.

49 After the crisis was over, we offered to place our system at the disposal of the HRM and EMO in the event of another declared emergency. We offered to remove all irrelevant features and commercials during an emergency. The Halifax Regional Council has since requested its staff to reach a memorandum of agreement with us -- and that was passed unanimously -- to become the assigned emergency broadcast system for the region. This agreement could serve as a model for emergency broadcasting not only in Nova Scotia but in communities across Canada.

50 This concept and much of the initial software to make it work was developed several years ago by Cameron Bell, a friend and partner whom you may know as a former News Director of BCTV in Vancouver. As you may know, he has three LPFM licences in B.C. offering a similar service.

51 We imported that concept to Atlantic Canada, where, in addition to the four stations we now operate, once frequencies are confirmed, there will be two more on the air in Moncton and Fredericton, with the support of municipal officials. These are decentralized, locally-managed broadcast undertakings, unique creatures in the Canadian broadcast system and, we believe, a model other communities in Canada will find valuable.

52 Both travellers and local residents can be safer and better informed with the establishment of such healthy FM radio stations that carry reliable safety and community information, packaged in a familiar format and identified by familiar highway signage. Our stations have a common structure that a local community can easily feed and nurture, while as licence holders we accept responsibility for the content by controlling both the degree and the nature of local access.

53 Now, Al MacKay will describe the kind of programming we anticipate for the Ottawa station.

54 MR. MacKAY: Good morning.

55 As one of the premier tourist destinations in Canada, it makes perfect sense to establish a visitors' radio station in this community. The 2003 Annual Report of the Ottawa Tourism and Convention Authority reported 7.2 million person-visits to the Ottawa-Gatineau area. About 5 million of those visitors were here as tourists or to visit family and friends, and when they come to Ottawa, there is such a wealth of things to do and see that our challenge will be to fit everything into our coverage and still maintain a 10- to 15-minute loop.

56 There are at least 50 major -- five zero -- major festivals, including the Tulip Festival, Winterlude, Canada Day, Bluesfest, Chamber Music Festival, and one of my favourites, the Capital Beer Festival. Within the Capital Region, as you know, there are more than 10 major museums and galleries, as well as dozens of other places that are drenched in history, such as Parliament Hill, Rideau Hall and the War Memorial.

57 Providing information about these attractions, producing short vignettes about the history of the capital area, and working with Jacques Brunelle and his staff at the Tourism and Convention Authority and Guy Laflamme and his people at the National Capital Commission, it will provide this radio service with a very deep reservoir of content.

58 Add to that the weather and currency information, road closures -- which can be a common occurrence for major events such as Canada Day and Winterlude -- and airport flight information, and it will be a very vibrant 15-minute loop.

59 But there is another side to the service as well. As Jack mentioned, the Halifax station became a vital centre of information during Juan, the huge storm that hit the Maritimes.

60 As the Commission is aware, the Capital Region has had its own fair share of weather and winter disasters. The Ice Storm of 1998 left much of eastern Ontario and western Quebec reeling. Accurate and vital information was critical to let people know what was happening and how they should cope.

61 Just as an aside, the circumstances in Ottawa and Gatineau over the past day and a half with the disruption in traffic patterns caused by security requirements for the visit of U.S. President George Bush is a perfect illustration of how this service could be of enormous use to this community. What with the confusion caused by road closures, changes in bus routes, airport access, all of that information could have been on the air, updated as often as necessary, and available every 10-15 minutes so people could have access to it, they could hear it when they needed it.

62 Should we be granted a licence, we see one of our first steps as opening discussions with Mayor Bob Chiarelli and his officials with the Ottawa Emergency Management System to build on the experience gained in the Maritimes to ensure that the station's air time is made quickly available to the appropriate police, fire, civic and medical authorities in the event of a weather or other type of disaster that affects the broad community.

63 We will broadcast only information and features which do not constitute the same service being offered by conventional licensees, and as befitting the bilingual nature of the Capital Region, the commitment is here to launch a parallel service in the French language within 18 months, assuming that a frequency is available.

64 The service will be financed in part by advertising revenue from municipal authorities and tourism organizations and from the sale of advertising time to local businesses. Our price point is well below and not competitive with conventional radio broadcasters and it gives a number of small local businesses an opportunity to move into radio advertising for the first time.

65 As the Commission noted in its decisions regarding the applications in Moncton and Fredericton, and we quote:

"The Commission is of the view that the proposed station would not have a significant undue financial impact on existing conventional FM stations that are targeted to mainstream audience."

66 We will broadcast no more than six minutes per clock hour of advertising material, and as we said, in emergency situations, we will drop all advertising and other features in order to make the frequency available for the transmission of essential public information.

67 Modest production fees will be charged to advertisers for specific field or studio productions beyond the normal facilities offered to advertisers or information suppliers.

68 The service will be produced by professionals, most from this community, with the assistance and participation of community officials. We want to reach visitors coming into the city and motorists driving throughout it. All will benefit from the safety, regulatory and community information we intend to broadcast, and we think that many visitors could be encouraged to spend more time in the area than original intended, benefitting the local economy and the sponsors of local festivals, events and attractions.

69 Madam Chair, we are not going to be a service that people are going to want to listen to all day, but when they need the information, they will know it will be there, available on this station, updated on a regular basis.

70 MR. McGAW: Madam Chair, we are not intervening against other applicants at this hearing, we are in a different business than they are and we leave it to the Commission to sort out the pros and cons of the competing applications for a conventional service.

71 In the event the Commission sees fit to grant us a licence, we are prepared to revise our technical brief to identify an unprotected frequency that is available following your issuance of any conventional licence or licences.

72 In closing, Madam Chair, I can say with confidence that we are committed to delivering useful information to the public. It is what we are good at, it is what we have always done and it is what we have been doing for the past several years or couple of years with licences that you have granted to us.

73 Thank you for listening and we would be happy to respond to any questions.

74 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, gentlemen. You are, of course, competing by virtue of the frequency you applied for --

75 MR. McGAW: Yes.

76 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- and so you understand the procedure, that you are entitled, if you wish, to consider your application an intervention in the other applications. Perhaps you can speak to the lawyer and get some further explanations.

77 MR. McGAW: Yes. Basically, we are prepared to wait until ---

78 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because I heard you say you are not considering yourself competing with the other applications, not on format but on frequency, as I understand it.

79 MR. McGAW: We have applied for this frequency. We are prepared to wait until the Commission decides what --

80 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

81 MR. McGAW:  -- who might get that frequency.

82 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

83 MR. McGAW: We will wait till the dust settles basically --

84 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

85 MR. McGAW:  -- and apply for another frequency.

86 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, if you have any questions about my question on procedure, you can speak to our lawyers.

87 MR. McGAW: Okay.

88 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams, please.

89 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You might have to wait for the snow to settle --

90 MR. McGAW: Before the dust.

91 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  -- before it gets too dusty around here.

92 Mr. McGaw and fellow panellists, your application is quite clear and very complete, so I only have a few questions for you on your low-power tourist radio station application.

93 I noticed that you proposed a 3-mV contour would provide coverage to what is essentially Ottawa's downtown core and to a lesser degree to the downtown Hull sector of the City of Gatineau. You proposed a .5-mV contour would expand your expand your coverage somewhat. However, it appears that your signal will be unavailable across most of the greater metropolitan Ottawa area. This seems to include Ottawa's international airport.

94 My questions are: Why the limited downtown focus? Is it a function of the power level that you are proposing or are there specific reasons for focusing your signal in the downtown core area?

95 MR. McGAW: It is a factor of power, yes, but I would like to ask Mr. MacKay to respond to that in terms of the local community and our target market.

96 MR. MacKAY: Well, I think the issue for us would be to try and get up and established and running. We know that there are limitations to the signal right now, but under the way that the low-power world is configured, 50 watts appears to be the best we can go at this particular point in time. We want to try and find the best possible place for the transmitter to make sure that the reach, particularly of the B contour, the signal gets out as far as possible.

97 I think the plan is, once we get established and running and the value of the service is well-established in the community, we may well come back and talk to you again for an increase in power, depending upon the configuration of other frequencies.

98 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your research about all these tourists that come to the National Capital Region, are they primarily arriving by automobile or by aircraft or train or ---

99 MR. MacKAY: It is very much a mixed bag. There is an awful lot of road traffic that comes up either through 417 or 416 and even along highway 7. There is airport traffic as well but I think the research, if I can recall, was that the bulk of it is coming by road.

100 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.

101 MR. McGAW: Could I ---

102 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, of course.

103 MR. McGAW: Could I respond perhaps a little more elaborately on the question of reach and power reach?

104 Fifty watts, I think, is almost an arbitrary limit to the kind of transmission which we are seeking and we raised the question whether or not the Commission should re-examine that limit with Industry Canada in view of the fact that cities are expanding and the 50-watt limit does limit our reach to what we expect would be the entire community and to highway and airport access to the city. So we just raise that as an issue at this point.

105 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you, Mr. McGaw.

106 I see that you operate a similar low-power tourist service in Halifax. Have you done any research on how your target audience most often accesses this service? For example, is most of the tuning done in hotel rooms or is it in cars and are there mechanisms to track this sort of thing or how do you determine that?

107 MR. McGAW: Yes. It is mostly received by cars because the nature of the transmission of a 50-watt transmitter, because it is either a horizontal -- I am not a technical person but it is either a horizontal or a vertical transmission and it means that a car antenna receives it before a home radio station antenna would receive it.

108 So it is mostly in cars and people tune in, and we have a fairly substantial reach market in that area because we have research that shows we have a reach in the order of 40,000+ per week, and they reach it because ---

109 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What percentage of ---

110 MR. McGAW: Of the market?

111 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.

112 MR. McGAW: That is about -- in terms of reach, it is about 10-15 per cent of the Halifax market, people who listen on a regular basis, per week, and a lot of that is because of the signage we have been able to have erected on highways -- these are limited-access highways -- and in the town, by the city.

113 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

114 In your August 2 deficiency you identified 104.7 as a second choice should 96.5 be unavailable at the end of the hearing process. However, in the same Response you went on to state that:

"We would like to be able to use a different frequency if one were available following the Commission's deliberations."

115 Could you clarify your second choice of frequency? The deficiency response seems to appear slightly contradictory.

116 MR. McGAW: Yes, it does, to me too. I am not sure I can clarify it, because I don't have a technical person here who can respond to the specific --

117 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Perhaps you can --

118 MR. McGAW:  -- but I can deal with --

119 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  -- find out and --

120 MR. McGAW:  -- Commission personnel.

121 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  -- bring the information forward at reply stage?

122 MR. McGAW: Yes.

123 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.

124 In your supplementary brief you stated that if licenced you would accept a conditional licence that would require you to apply for a parallel French language low-power FM tourist service within 18 months of being issued a license for the English language low-power FM tourist application we are hearing today.

125 Out of curiousity, and given the bilingual nature of this market and the extended .5 mV coverage your signal would offer to the City of Gatineau, why did you not consider offering a bilingual service as part of this application? I notice your programming would be operated on a 15-minute pre-recorded tape/loop basis. Would it not be possible to alternate the English and French programming loops every 15 minutes?

126 MR. McGAW: We would find generally that people would not listen to bilingual stations. CBC does not have bilingual stations. It has bilingual broadcastings. It has English stations and French stations. That is why we feel we should have both services independently operated.

127 If bilingual transmission is necessary in an emergency, we would be certainly happy to accept whatever communications necessary in both languages because we would feel an obligation to communicate emergency information.

128 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

129 As you are aware, this is a competitive hearing and other applicants are before this Panel seeking to operate a radio undertaking using 96.5 MHz frequency. With respect to meeting the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and in view of the best use of frequency considerations, perhaps you could outline for the Panel what your proposed service would add to the Ottawa/Gatineau market, notwithstanding your excellent opening remarks today, and why do you feel your approval of your application would represent the best use of this frequency?

130 MR. McGAW: Of that particular frequency I might fall back on the statement made by the Commission in granting licences to us in Fredericton and Moncton, which was that perhaps our kind of service is not the best possible use of that frequency.

131 It sounds like a contradiction again but, basically, we are prepared to see you assign those primary frequencies to applicants before you today and we will wait to see what frequencies may be available for us after that. We are being very accommodating.

132 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hopefully, we will be too.

133 Thank you, Mr. McGaw. That concludes my questions, and Madam Chair.

134 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

135 Commissioner Langford.

136 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.

--- Technical Difficulties / Difficultés techniques

137 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, we are not alone in this. I understand the Prime Minister and the President had a similar problem at the Museum last night.

138 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will wait until it is cleared because we need --

--- Technical Difficulties / Difficultés techniques

139 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, I think we have life -- in the microphone, anyway.

140 Could you just try yours to make sure it is --

141 MR. McGAW: Yes.

142 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It sounds good to me.

143 Okay. The area that I wanted to explore, it seems to me that what you are offering is pretty well clear to us and it is kind of a tried and true package at this point. We have seen it work and you have described it.

144 But the area I am not clear on, listening to you this morning, is control of your station in emergency times. In other words, we would be licensing you, assuming we did, saying we have faith in you; you are tried and true operators; you know how the game is played; you know the rules, but then we get a big snowstorm and you hand it over to whom, somebody in emergency measures, someone in the city?

145 Can you just explain what kind of controls you would have in a situation like that?

146 MR. McGAW: Accept the model as it is now operating in Halifax, in which there is access by the RCMP Emergency Measures Organization and others -- and that is direct access. In other words, they can climb onto a microphone that works and just say what they have to say and reach the transmitter.

147 It is a baby step from there to turning the station over to those same officials, many of them the same officials, but giving them access through a password, a user name and password, because we are a computer -- we are a digital operations. So we will control access to the transmitter, as we do now. We don't hand a microphone to anybody.

148 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And assuming, just for sake of argument, that someone goes off on a frolic of their own, as we used to say when we studied law in the old days, do you have the ability to turn that microphone off?

149 MR. McGAW: Yes, we can remove that from the loop. We can't turn it off if it happens far from us, which it might. But it has never happened so far.

150 MR. MacLEOD: I don't know if it is clear that we have what is called an Arc program, and that program is a software program that converts wave files to MP3 and sends to our server. That program is only given to specific communications personnel in various agencies and it is password protected.

151 So they go on their personal computer and send a file, and then it is on air if we put it in the log, so only files such as RCMP, police, Bridge Commission, et cetera. They would send an MP3 file that would go on air. We have password protected that. If there is a problem we can eliminate it immediately, but they are responsible for that conduct and we have gone through a rigorous process of determining who has access to that.

152 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So let us take a completely bizarre example.

153 The Communications Officer at the RCMP decides that he or she has a singing career ahead of them and instead of reporting on a crime wave or whatever, begins to bellow out a refrain of Melancholy Baby. How fast can you save us from that?

154 MR. McGAW: I am not sure we would want to.

--- Laughter / Rires

155 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Assuming that it doesn't accord with your conditions of licence how fast can you stop this?

156 MR. McGAW: As soon as we hear it.

157 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it is almost immediate?

158 MR. McGAW: Yes. I can say that something very close to what you suggest happened. An RCMP officer who regularly reports safety information on our station wished his daughter Happy Birthday one day and we thought that was quite charming, so we didn't take that off.

159 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good for him, but we wouldn't want to set a precedent, would we? A man who had a family of 13 children it might never end.

--- Laughter / Rires

160 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Then the last question I have on the same sort of control and separation, shall I say, you are selling ads. You sell political ads.

161 I am thinking what happens when you want to hand the microphone over to Mayor Chiarelli or he has a quest -- or some mayor. We will just call it Mayor "X" -- and you have a relationship because you sold ads to that person's campaign, for example, for reelection. What kind of separation do you have there?

162 MR. McGAW: We do offer advertising to political parties in the same way commercial broadcasters do now. The time limit is there and the conditional announcement is attached to it.

163 There is no relationship beyond that, although the City does have access. We don't like to involve, I guess, municipal officials in political statements on the air. If they have important announcements to make we will record that and put it on the air.

164 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Have you run into any difficulties whatsoever in these relationships you have had so far?

165 MR. McGAW: None at all. They have been pleasant and our audience has not complained in any way. So we are quite happy with how it has worked out.

166 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No battles over content?

167 MR. McGAW: No. Some people quarrel with some of the things that have been said by people on the air, but that is a normal part of broadcasting.

168 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. Thank you.

169 Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

170 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

171 Madam Noël.

172 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I have very short questions.

173 You have claimed that you are giving some emergency services during power outages and the like. Do you have -- how do you function? Do you have backup power in terms of generators or that type of thing, not only to have your transmission facility work but also your computer because, as I gather, everything is sent to your computers and then digitized and sent back on air.

174 So how does your studio work? Do you have emergency power?

175 MR. McGAW: Yes, we have emergency power backup in the form of battery power and diesel power.

176 In Halifax, as an example, we have -- our transmitter and our server are located at the CBC Tower, the base of the CBC Tower. When there was a snowstorm quite recently that disrupted power in many areas of Halifax, we continued on the air because of that backup power. Our services were there and we were able to access it.

177 In fact, in an emergency we can access it through what is called an "air card" which can be attached to a laptop, a battery-operated laptop, and reach our transmitter with a voice message.

178 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You also have emergency power in your studios where you put your --

179 MR. McGAW: Yes.

180 COMMISSIONER NOËL:  -- loops together?

181 MR. McGAW: Yes.

182 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And only batteries or generator powered?

183 MR. McGAW: Well, that would depend.

184 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Because batteries have a life of themselves --

185 MR. McGAW: Yes, they do.

186 COMMISSIONER NOËL:  -- of about eight hours.

187 MR. McGAW: Yes, they do.

188 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Past eight hours, you are stuck.

189 MR. McGAW: Yes, battery and --

190 MR. MacLEOD: I don't want you to think that it is just one specific studio. The advantage to our station is that we are very decentralized, that we have numerous points where we can access the station.

191 So in the case of an emergency we wouldn't have one location that was shut down. We can do this from numerous locations. In fact, Barry Manuel, who is the Head of the Municipal EMO in Halifax -- we have created a zero fail approach to this, which is basically coming up with every possible scenario that could happen and having something to do for that.

192 The worse case scenario is I basically go by myself to a battery -- diesel-generated housing area and receive reports from the EMO and put them on manually. There is absolutely no way of --

193 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So you have access to generators and you are able to continue your programming.

194 Okay. I saw on page 5 of your presentation this morning that you say, and I will quote:

"Should we be granted a licence we see one of our first steps as opening discussions with Mayor Bob Chiarelli and officials within the Ottawa emergency managing system."

195 Have you thought of doing the same with Mayor Ducharme on this side of the river?

196 MR. McKAY: I think the coordination through whatever organizations exist will be the path that will follow. We started with -- because it is an Ottawa-based organization, we started with Ottawa but, obviously, any linkage and coordination that happens with Ville de Gatineau will be involved.

197 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Because as we saw yesterday, when there is a problem it is on both sides of the river.

198 MR. McKAY: I think the response is that both sides of the river those problems would be covered.

199 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I heard you discuss the possibility of having bilingual programming. If there were to be only one frequency available, and given the scarcity of frequencies -- apparently, the last time we were here looking at applications for the Ottawa/Gatineau area it was the last frequencies and they found a few more. Given the scarcity of the frequencies, would you consider a bilingual service? This is not a no-frills service. We are not appealing to -- it is an emergency service, tourists in emergency.

200 MR. McKAY: Well, I think as Jack has said, it is really not the first choice because -- particularly with visitors coming in who may not be proficient in either one of the languages, if they tune in and they hear it in French they will believe, "Well, this is a French station" and they won't stay with it.

201 We would really have to walk through how the format would be accommodated, because I don't think you could be successful running a 10 to 15-minute chunk in English and then a 10 to 15-minute chunk in French. I think you would have to apply a bit of imagination on how you pulled it together so that people who were listening would understand that their language of choice would be covered at some point in time during the loop.

202 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Just on a final touch, I know that things have evolved but when I first had television it was CBC Radio-Canada. It was bilingual in the fifties, early fifties.

203 Thank you, gentlemen.

204 Oh, and by the way, maybe CTD would be a way to let your RCMP sing along on the stations.

205 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

206 You mentioned the constraints you feel that a 50-watt maximum, which I understand is what it is for low power; right, 50-watt maximum with a 60-metre height for the antenna, correct?

207 Have you raised this with Industry Canada yourselves?

208 MR. McGAW: Expanding the limit?

209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Still defining it as low power but expanding the ERP available or possible under unprotected standards?

210 MR. McGAW: We haven't specifically, but we would like to. The restriction exists now, and we feel it is --

211 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you haven't raised it when you applied for your technical brief?

212 MR. McGAW: No, we haven't specifically, no.

213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct that your ERP will 18 watts?

214 MR. McGAW: Yes. I believe that is the -- yes, I believe so.

215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that because of the height of the antenna?

216 MR. McGAW: The height of the antenna --

217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why is it that you are so below the 50 maximum?

218 MR. McGAW: The way it works -- again, I am not a technical person, Madam Chair, but the height of the antenna, the length of the transmission line, are all factored in to determine the ERP which is a maximum of 50.

219 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is the maximum that you could do?

220 MR. McGAW: Yes.

221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Probably because of the height of the antenna, et cetera, and the propagation.

222 Now, you have mentioned the possibility or that you are accommodating a position with regard to a frequency, but we can take it for the record that whatever happens it would be a low-power unprotected frequency, from the bottom of page 5 of your presentation this morning "to identify an unprotected frequency". So you are accommodating but it will be low power?

223 MR. McKAY: Low power --

224 THE CHAIRPERSON: But it will be at the use of a frequency at low power --

225 MR. McKAY: Yes.

226 THE CHAIRPERSON -- unprotected status and low power --

227 MR. McKAY: That is correct.

228 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- as it exists now in the Industry Canada rules.

229 Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen.

230 MR. McKAY: Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

231 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

232 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

233 We will now hear Item 2 in the agenda, which is an application by Levinson & Associates on behalf of the company to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English-language FM tourist radio programming undertaking in Ottawa.

234 The new station would operate on frequency 98.5 MHz, channel 253LP, with an effective radiated power of 8.6 watts. The applicant proposes to operate a tourist information service.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

235 MR. M. LEVINSON: Good morning.

236 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

237 MR. M. LEVINSON: Are you ready?

238 Okay.

239 Madam Chairperson and Commissioners, my name is Michael Levinson and I'll be leading the applications here today.

240 Let me take a moment and introduce our panel.

241 Beside is my father, Jacie Levinson, CEO of Commvesco, Levinson, Viner, followed by Michael MacGahan, President of Commvesco, Levinson, Viner and Manuel Canales, a 25-year veteran of the radio broadcasting industry.

242 Behind me is Kristina Hancock, Manager of Business Development of Commvesco, Levinson, Viner. Beside her is John Cosentino, President of Ottawa-Gatineau Hoteliers Incorporated and the Board of Directors of the Ottawa Tourism Convention Authority.

243 Beside him is Joseph Sadoun, our consulting engineer with Yves Hamell & Associates and beside him, Wayne Plunkett, our regulatory consultant.

244 At the back table over there is Mike McCann, General Manager of Velocity Media, part of the CLVGroup family of companies.

245 I am currently CEO and President of Book Direct, a company that has developed e-commerce applications for the tourism and travel industry, most notably we are the official provider of on-line hotel reservations technology for the Ottawa Hotel Association.

246 Previously I was Vice-President of the Ontario Hotel/Motel Association and President of the Ottawa Hotel/Motel Association.

247 We are very pleased to be able to present an innovative new concept for tourism information radio, the first of its kind anywhere in the country and today marks the first time the Commission has heard applications for tourism information service in one of Canada's largest markets, international capital.

248 The challenge before us is to convince you that what may have previously been considered a marginal service at best, if properly executed, can, indeed, provide the best use of a scarce FM frequency.

249 When I say best use, we are thinking of the combination of overall benefit to the Canadian Broadcasting system, to creating a program service with a true listener demand, probably a business model which will not only provide an attractive alternative to shareholders of this application, but will create a much broader financial benefit to the Ottawa-Gatineau economy.

250 The impact of tourist dollars is important to the financial health of the local economy. Our station will provide a much needed complimentary broadcast service to the print media aids for tourists and residents alike that takes full advantage of the radio medium.

251 Further, we are pleased with the support offered by the National Capital Commission and look forward to working closely with them.

252 Manuel.

253 MR. CANALES: Please consider our concept of the interactive relationship with --

254 MR. M. LEVINSON: Just a second. I'm having a problem, I can't turn off the mike again.

255 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry about that. You will just have to wait...

256 MR. M. LEVINSON: No problem.

--- Technical Difficulties / Difficultés techniques

257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

258 Sorry, Mr. Canales, let's start again.

259 MR. CANALES: That's okay.

260 Thank you.

261 Please consider our concept on the interactive relationship between spoken word and music in our application.

262 What better way to promote a musical artist appearing in the National Capital region than playing their music to give listeners a feel for each type of performer featured.

263 We intend to cover artists featuring music from one end of the spectrum to the other. We will not be playing music of any particular format to the detriment of any existing or future music-based station to be licensed from these proceedings.

264 We will be providing a valuable new broadcast service that specializes in event promotion well beyond that currently being offered on the local radio dial.

265 We are greatly encouraged by what we consider by its key paragraph in Public Notice 2004-92 re: low power radio undertakings just released on November 26th, 2004.

266 Paragraph 13 states that:

"Invites undertakings that require advertising as part of their business plan to apply for a licence."

267 In the letter we received from the Secretary General, the Commission categorized our application as non-conventional, LP/FM tourist information service. We welcome this categorization as we acknowledge our format to be non-conventional and intend to provide a live and engaging format presenting much more than information about traffic and weather conditions, highway construction and simple mentions of attractions of interests to tourists on a repeating basis.

268 The key element of our business plan is the use of music to compliment the spoken word of our program schedule.

269 Initially we are contemplating the use of sample portions of artists' music to accompany interviews or to promote current and upcoming entertainment attractions.

270 This approach, however, will provide problems in calculating Canadian content on the music we play. In order to adhere to the MAPL system criteria, we intend to play complete versions of songs. Our minimum Canadian content commitment is 40 per cent.

271 We shall utilize the resources of Indie Pool to air music of many Canadian artists presently who are completely ignored by mainstream commercial radio in order to avoid duplication with other stations in the market.

272 Gregg Terrence of the Indie Pool has advised us that his organization represents some 18,000 Canadian artists, giving us confidence in this regard, are totally realistic.

273 We note that Mr. Terrence appeared as an intervenor at the satellite hearing last month where he explained in considerable detail how many of these artists could be heard over satellite radio in Canadian and the U.S.A.

274 We desire to emulate this plan on the local airwaves from Capital Information Radio.

275 We wish to emphasize the importance we attach to our Canadian talent development commitments, even in relation to the low power application we're presently discussing. In our reply to deficiency questions dated August 3rd, 2004, we confirm our commitment of the minimum of $27,000 per year to the CAB plan as befits the Ottawa-Gatineau market.

276 We note that our financial projections as originally filed did not incorporate the block total of $189,000 over a seven-year licence term.

277 In contrast with our August 3rd, 2004 response to deficiencies and to the assumption of a full power operation, we outlined an operation of 24 full and/or part-time programming staff. We have now revised that estimate for the low power application to have 10 full and/or part-time staff as follows:

278 Newscast announcers and journalists, 7; producers, 2; programming and music and information director, 1, in which we envision there being six full-time staff and four part time.

279 In addition, we have considered how best to respond to the intervention we received from Mr. Jacques Gedeon, Broadcast Manager of the National Capital Commission.

280 The NCC advocates the need of a tourism information service in both official languages and the endorsement of our application was based on our opening a French language equivalent within 18 months of the launch of the English language station.

281 In our reply to the NCC's positive intervention dated October the 6th, 2004 we stated that we are pleased to commit to a bilingual radio service for the Ottawa-Gatineau region.

282 After considerable thought and discussion on this matter, we have concerns about operating a bilingual station on a number of grounds.

283 First and foremost, we believe that our format will have listeners tuning in and out by virtue of channel flipping, and our concern that inadvertently the listener could be turned off if, by the moment of time when they tune in they are not hearing their language of choice.

284 An alternative solution to a future application for another station, and utilizing yet another scarce frequency is our decision to pledge funding to support a French community licence application on the agenda for this hearing; namely, Jean-Jacques Brunelle (OBCI), in the amount of $250,000 over a seven-year licence, as well as $250,000 of in-kind consulting services.

285 The intention for these funds is to be used by this applicant to create tourist information programming in French.

286 We wish to make it clear that we would have no input or control over the actual programs produced, but will cooperate with them, with the NCC, and other tourist organizations to provide information for the potential French community station.

287 We have included as an attachment a letter of acceptance of our pledge from La Radio de la Communauté Francophone d'Ottawa.

288 We agree with the NCC that a community needs the tourist information to be provided in both official languages. We believe that supporting La Radio de la Communauté Francophone d'Ottawa fulfils both the requirement to provide this information in French, as well as it fits within our principally long history of financially giving back to the community.

289 So, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, we would like to attach an amended financial forecast to the copies of this opening presentation which takes both our CLV commitment and the aforementioned pledge for French tourist information into account, as well as individual separate line expense categories.

290 We are able to cushion this additional cost by projecting a break-even point at the end of year three, rather than year two.

291 Jacie.

292 MR. J. LEVINSON: Madam Chair and Commissioners, how does this work?

293 Madam Chair and Commissioners, sorry about that.

294 THE CHAIRPERSON: I messed up by hitting it, which is probably an indication of...

295 That's better.

296 MR. J. LEVINSON: I am pleased to provide my own perspective as to why I chose to get involved with this application for Capital Information Radio when presented with the concept.

297 Our firm, Commvesco, Levinson, Viner dates back 35 years to 1969, but the Levinson family has been rooted in the National Capital region for almost 100 years.

298 My father operated a business in both Ottawa and in Hull at that time, which is now Gatineau, from the 1940s until 1974 when the business was then expropriated.

299 The Commvesco, Levinson, Viner group is one of the largest private property managing firms in Ottawa.

300 Our residential and commercial portfolios range from single dwellings to commercial strip malls, to industrial buildings and large, multi-unit high-rise complexes.

301 In addition to operating three suite hotels in downtown Ottawa containing 540 suites in the Albert at Bay, Aristocrat and Best Western Victoria Park, we are in the business of providing accommodation to the residents and businesses operating in the region, be it in the form of residential living, office, commercial or retail, as well as transient hotel.

302 People who rent from us live, work and play here. As an organization involved in renting office and retail space, we are acutely aware of the importance and impact that tourism has on the local economy.

303 As my partner, Mike MacGahan will explain in further detail, we are actively involved in the community and believe in giving back.

304 We see this radio application as an opportunity to expand on that, to help us share the sense of love and pride we have for our community.

305 Thank you.

306 MR. MacGAHAN: Madam Chairperson and Commissioners, the founders of Commvesco, Levinson Viner have always had a strong commitment to the community.

307 As an organization that touches the lives of so many people, through our over 4,000 apartments in the City, it is our part of our corporate make-up to encourage our staff to be involved in the community, and we support them wherever we can.

308 This may mean aiding amateur sports or providing community organizations with office space or a place to hold meetings, or even encouraging our staff to collect food for the Food Bank from the resident tenants.

309 This past summer we held our annual golf tournament and we raised over $92,000 for local charities such as Habitat for Humanity, the Old Forge, Youth Services Bureau, Ottawa Jewish Community Foundation, Boys and Girls Club, the Kidney Fund, Easter Seals and the Snowsuit Fund in one single day event.

310 This fall we also spearheaded an initiative for 80,000 re-development of a local park in the area of low-income housing to create a new and safe place, environment and use our clout to bring partners to the table such as Home Depot and Kaboom.

311 As an organization so involved in the community, we believe there's a need for a radio station that promotes all the best about our region and believe that a Capital Information Radio will fill this important void.

312 The support from within the community is clearly demonstrated through our many intervention letters we have received here.

313 We, therefore, hope that the CRTC can assist us in finding a spot somewhere on the local FM dial.

314 We are very excited about the prospect of developing a pioneer concept of how we believe that our tourist information radio can assist and strengthen our community, both in terms of promoting involvement and the positive impact that it can bring to the local economy.

315 After all, radio is the most immediate and intimate of all forms of media and wherever you go there's radio.

316 Pass on to Kristina Hancock.

317 MS HANCOCK: Good morning.

318 The Ottawa-Gatineau region, as the Nation's Capital, is a highly transient city by virtue of the fact that as a Capital City it has tourism, embassies, government travel above and beyond the traditional regional and business travel done in any market.

319 Last year alone, Ottawa had over 7-million visitors according to the Ottawa Tourism and Convention Authority.

320 Yesterday was a perfect example of the unique type of travel that Ottawa welcomes. We had President Bush and Mrs. Bush, his security detail, the media, government and embassy officials and, of course, the demonstrators, covering a wide range of society.

321 The region is comprised of over 55 different ethnic groups and over 170 embassies and diplomatic corps, all of which we believe form part of the potential audience for Capital Information Radio.

322 In consideration of the broad base and diverse cultural mosaic that make up the region, we have arrived at the unique approach to our musical content.

323 Capital Information Radio newscasts will cover local news, event news and some international and national news of relevance to the residents of and visitors to our Nation's Capital.

324 Only in the case of the Ottawa-Gatineau market can it be argued that news that would be considered national or international in all other parts of the country, actually has a local flavour here.

325 We have met and are very interested in cooperating with the Canadian Diversity Producers Association and related organizations to any feasible extent that would allow us to use the format we are proposing to achieve the goals that the CDPA espouses.

326 As we fully expect to promote all types of attractions and activities that occur in the National Capital region on an ongoing basis, there should be many opportunities for liaison with the CDPA in a multi-cultural, multi-racial environment for our mutual benefit.

327 We will provide opportunities, both full time and part time, to ensure significant representation of the usual and under represented groups in our employment ranks.

328 MR. CANALES: A typical broadcast hour will include at least 16 minutes of the spoken word. A typical broadcast day will total 228 minutes of the spoken word. Please note that at least three minutes of the spoken word content for each hour will be related to promoting Canadian talent events and news which translates annually into over $1-million of additional indirect Canadian talent development value.

329 We believe that the budgeted advertising sales are highly achievable. We are projecting a one-third sold out of the initial first year inventory gradually increasing to year seven for a 50 per cent sold out of the inventory at affordable prices ranging from $22 to $36 for each 30-second spot on rotation.

330 That is providing an extremely conservative estimate and lots of room for growth.

331 We have noted with great interest media articles in the Ottawa Citizen this past Monday and Tuesday concerning the emergency preparedness of the cities of Ottawa and Gatineau.

332 As we indicate in our deficiency answer of September the 1st, 2004, it would be our intention upon being licensed to offer our live and interactive facilities as an important media source of all types of weather and other emergency situations.

333 For instance, we would like to participate in the plan being developed by Environment Canada and the Canadian Association of Broadcasters whereby important weather bulletins will automatically interrupt the regular programming of participating stations.

334 We see this level of participation as survival for our mandate.

335 MR. SADOUN: As the Commission knows, Yves Hamel & Associates has prepared two engineering briefs in support of this application.

336 The low power parameters of 8.6 watts at 141 metres, the equivalent of 50 watts at 60 metres, and a second brief which developed the chosen frequency of 98.5mhz, Channel 253, to its maximum limited Class A potential of 1,745 watts of average power and at 122.5 metres.

337 Industry Canada has been advised to hold the higher power brief in abeyance pending direction from the CRTC of the proceedings of this public hearing.

338 We have also been asked by our client to briefly comment on the availability of further FM frequencies to serve the National Capital region beyond the three that have been applied for at this time; namely, 88.5, mutually exclusive 96.3/96.5 and 98.5.

339 We have recently conducted an exhaustive study on this subject. In discussion with Wayne Plunkett, the regulatory consultant, we have identified two other drop-in FM frequencies which are third adjacent to existing local stations, and although they have significant co-channel limitations, these frequencies will still have reasonable commercial potential to broaden the coverage throughout the whole regional listening area and, of course, provide a stronger signal in downtown buildings and other difficult reception areas.

340 MR. PLUNKETT: We are extremely excited about the prospect of becoming part of the Ottawa-Gatineau airways. We have a solid strategy and we know how to be successful.

341 It starts from having the right team in place and the financial resources to realize our vision. We have pledged enough investments so as to provide four times the necessary funding to operate a low power undertaking in the wisdom the Commission will eventually allow Capital Information Radio with a full power licence.

342 We are locally based and part of the Ottawa community. We have a wealth of established relationships with organizations in the region that will enable us to fast track the roll-out of this station.

343 To ensure that our station is highly proactive to the needs of the tourism industry and the marketplace, we are establishing an advisory board that represents the community leaders and who's who of the major stakeholders in the Ottawa tourism industry.

344 We already have received letters of interest from executives representing the following areas: The hotel industry, taxi industry, convention, festivals, restaurant industry and retail.

345 When we discuss our intentions with members of the community we are overwhelmed with the responses we got. It was not a matter of, "Could this happen?", but "How quickly can we get on the air?"

346 We already have commitments from prospective advertisers just based on our brief description and their confidence in our ability to deliver.

347 We have over 50 positive intervention letters, which over 40 present represent perspective advertisers. Something that has become abundantly clear to us is that we do not compete directly with the other radio stations for advertisers. By the very nature of our focus niche we can attract advertisers from organizations who traditionally would not advertise in radio.

348 In other words, with Capital Information Radio the CRTC can be assured that with a unique service such as we propose that we can help build a larger pie of real advertisers.

349 We expect this radio station to become a valuable resource to the tourism industry in order to better promote the region and hopefully succeed in getting visitors to extend their stays or visit more often.

350 We also believe that by educating the residents of the city of all that the region has to offer, they will invite friends and family to come and visit.

351 We, therefore, feel that the merits of this application are reason for a very serious consideration by the CRTC of awarding a licence to Capital Information Radio.

352 We now look forward to your questions. Thank you.

353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Ms Hancock and gentlemen. On the 31st of August '04, you confirmed by letter to the Commission that you wish to proceed with the application as filed on 21 April '04. And in that application at number or item 7.3, you describe that application as "a tourist information station" and at 7.7 as "a tourist information station (only incidental music)".

354 You referred this morning to a clarification response that you forwarded the Commission in answer to questions on the 31st of August. Now, if you look at that with me, please, I think your response is dated 1 September 04, and you filed charts of the programming, which indicates and which you confirmed this morning, that during drive time 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and also 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m., correct, of what your programming would look like and your calculations seem to be the same as mine as to whether... as to how much spoken word programming that ends up daily at 228 minutes, right, which, if I'm correct, is about 3.8 hours. Correct? A day of spoken word programming.

355 Now, this schedule does not indicate as far as I can see what happens on Saturdays and Sundays. Would you tell me what your broadcasting day will look like Saturdays and Sundays?

356 I think we will take a 15 minute break and hopefully clarify this because it will become quite difficult for you. We will take a break. It's now a 10:45, we will be back at 11:00 and hopefully by then we will have uninterrupted service.

--- Recess at 1045 / Suspension à 1045

--- Upon resuming at 1100 / Reprise à 1100

357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back. Apparently the faulty piece of equipment has been corrected. So we trust that we will not be interrupted again and our apologies.

358 So I think we should start over to make sure everything is on the record.

359 I had started by saying that in your letter which is dated 1 September and in response to the Commission's letter of 31st August, you confirm that you wish to proceed with your application "as filed on 21st April '04." I then led you to 7.3 of your application, which defines your proposal as "a tourist information station," and at 7.7 of your 21st of April '04 proposal, which describes the station format as "a tourist information station (only incidental music)." So far, so good?

360 From there, we went to Table 1, spoken word, attached or which is part of your 1st of September response, and we agreed, as you did in your presentation this morning at page 8, that by looking at the projected spoken word or scheduled spoken word in these charts that you would have 228 minutes per day of spoken word and that equals to about 3.8 hours.

361 That is where we were when the equipment gave up on us and I asked you what Saturday and Sunday would look like.

362 MR. M. LEVINSON: Essentially, the service is going to be running seven days a week, and the schedule on the weekend, we intend it to be the same as during the week.

363 THE CHAIRPERSON: When I look at the spoken word content that is described in Table 1, you would agree that one way of doing it is to take 3.8 hours and multiply by seven to see how much spoken word content there would be and I would end up with 26.6 or almost 27 hours; is that correct? Sept fois huit, 56 -- right; correct?

364 Considering the broadcast day to be 126 hours per week or 18 hours per day, would you agree that that is approximately 21 per cent spoken word content?

365 MR. M. LEVINSON: Yes, Madam Chair.

366 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would be spoken word content and the rest, some 80 per cent or almost 80 per cent, would be music.

367 How can you expect us to consider that to be incidental, the level of music content?

368 MR. CANALES: Madam Chair, first of all, the level of spoken word demonstrated in the chart does not include live announcer talk. This is all a scheduled thing. So that may add to it but we didn't tabulate it for the matter of this chart here. Otherwise, this is just what is scheduled to be run as recorded or pre-established content but doesn't include, you know, any live interviews, interactions, phone calls or things beyond just normal things that an announcer would do because our service will offer a live announcer.

369 Secondly, in terms of the percentage of music and spoken word, we have to take into consideration the announcer talk and we also have to take into consideration the fact that we had asked the Commission for up to 10 minutes of announcements or commercials, which will reduce the actual music, if you would, to, I believe, somewhere around 38 per cent on a per hour basis that it would play.

370 We have asked the Commission to be allowed to play not incidental music but full songs and we are proposing a 40 per cent Canadian content.

371 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am proceeding, as you indicated you wanted to and as The Gazette indicated, on the basis of your initial application which spoke of a tourist information incidental music. In fact, even in that 1st of September response at page 8, about the middle of the paragraph, I read there, the middle of the middle paragraph or slightly below the middle of the page:

"As we carefully pointed out in our original supplementary brief of April 21, '04, we want to pioneer in Canadian radio a marriage of information and incidental music in a way that has not been programmed before and which we feel will provide the listener with a fresh, innovative lifestyle experience." (As read)

372 So my calculation, you still are talking of incidental music. What, in your view, is an incidental amount of music? I hear you now go from my calculated 21 per cent to 38 per cent. So this spoken word chart would not actually be what your proposal is this morning, would it?

373 MR. M. LEVINSON: Let me answer ---

374 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where do I find the margin between 21 and 38?

375 MR. M. LEVINSON: Before I answer that, I just want to clarify something in terms of the use of the term "incidental music."

376 The original intent, as we described to you this morning, was not to play entire songs but, as part of the ability to promote what to do and see and experience in the region, would mean showcasing some music events and artists performing in the area. We are going to play excerpts of their music. We had some concerns along the lines of that in terms of -- I believe there are other regulations relating to Canadian content that would prohibit us from playing musical excerpts strictly.

377 So our initial interpretation of incidental music wasn't limited to strictly, I guess, bridge music between segments but also the ability to play a segment of an artist who may be performing in the region or coming to the region, and basically, as we said here this morning, we believe that creates a problem for Canadian content and therefore amended it to say that we wish to play the full song because of that.

378 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was one of my questions from page 4 in your letter of 1 September '04, was not playing full songs and I see now that you have correct that to full songs and a 40 per cent Canadian content, which to date I don't think had been indicated anywhere.

379 What is, in your view, the maximum level of music? Now, you don't -- I suspect that when we listen to our radio station, many, many, many, many excerpts and a few full songs could cover the same number of minutes or hours in the day. So let us talk about the number of minutes or hours over the day that there would be music on the proposal that would fit what you initially applied for. Incidental could be incidental in a number of songs, but to us, incidental is how much music will there be and how much talk.

380 What is the maximum level that you would see fits your original proposal and that you would be prepared to accept, as a condition of licence, as a maximum level of the amount of music as opposed to spoken word, however and whatever kind of music or spoken word?

381 MR. CANALES: Madam Chair, if I may take this on an hourly basis since we have done most of our calculations on an hourly basis.

382 We said here clearly that in a typical hour, 16 minutes of spoken word, which is about 25 per cent of the hour right there; then we have an addition of up to 10 minutes of commercial content, which would bring that up to 26 minutes; we would allow somewhere around 10-15 minutes of announcer talk and interaction with the audience. So we estimate that the music per se, if you want to isolate just the music, it would be in the vicinity of around 38 per cent of that hour, you know.

383 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Canales, the way we calculate things doesn't allow us to just go hour per hour because some hours have 16 minutes of spoken word and some hours have 10 minutes of spoken word. We normally calculate things weekly. One of the reasons for that, of course, is if you had a condition of licence, you wouldn't want to be stuck with every hour we calculated over the week.

384 So you can't say per hour, you have to say at a minimum per day because not all your hours have the same number of spoken word. Am I right that the drive time morning and evening has 16 minutes of spoken word and the other is 10 minutes?

385 MR. CANALES: You, you are correct.

386 THE CHAIRPERSON: On a weekly basis, what would you consider a maximum level of music that would properly fulfil your initial application to have only incidental music?

387 MR. CANALES: Fifty per cent, I would say, would be an appropriate number.

388 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is incidental?

389 MR. CANALES: Well, 50 per cent music I mean ---

390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is incidental in the proposal? A 50-50 spoken word, that is your position, that that is incidental?

391 MR. CANALES: Yes.

392 MR. M. LEVINSON: Let me just interject and say it would have to be taken in context to the intent and the intent is to promote what to see and do and experience in the region, and therefore, the musical content is not, you know, simply contents that -- as I said earlier, we are not competing with any other radio station or musical format. What we are doing is promoting activities in the region and the mosaic of cultures within the region, and therefore, the music is really a part of that experience.

393 THE CHAIRPERSON: What kind of music would you play? All the applicants today are asked that question. What kind of music would it be?

394 MR. CANALES: We have chosen to play contemporary music that is unheard on the airwaves in the Ottawa-Gatineau region, with the sole exception of artists that will be actually playing in the region. Otherwise, it will be music that is not currently being exposed in the airwaves of the Ottawa-Gatineau region, and the only exception to that would be, for example, if Tom Jones happened to be at the Ottawa Civic Centre or something like that. We would be promoting the fact because it is an event, not because it is part of our music format.

395 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just so that I am clear on what this chart indicates, can I conclude from it that the 3:00 to 7:00 p.m. is the same as the 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m.?

396 MR. CANALES: Yes, Madam.

397 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then the chart for the others ---

398 At page 3 of your 1 September response to the Commission's letter, you had been asked to describe what your proposal would be and you were told that this was asked of any low-power applicant with a specialized project so that there is some way of keeping you if you were licensed within it and you describe it first by saying:

"A low-power radio undertaking will not replicate the programming offered by existing stations." (As read)

399 Explain to us a bit in more detail what spoken word you will have in drive time. You indicate six minutes newscast, three minutes traffic, two minutes weather, then a four-minute block which would be events and what is called one-minute historic moments. Now, twice per hour, is that 30 seconds each? This is in your table, okay.

400 MR. CANALES: Yes, Madam.

401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Twice 30 seconds, and then every 15 minutes, you will have one minute of events; is that it?

402 MR. CANALES: Yes, Madam.

403 THE CHAIRPERSON: You addressed the news this morning at page 7:

"We will have newscasts covering local news, event news, some international and national news of relevance to the residents and visitors." (As read)

404 I suspect anything that is happening internationally is of interest to visitors as well as residents.

405 How different is that other than the five minutes per hour? How different is that spoken word and how does it not replicate what other stations do?

406 MR. M. LEVINSON: The ---

407 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am talking here about the 11 minutes of the 16 minutes because you probably will tell me that events and historic moments are different. But traffic, weather and news, how different is that from a conventional station in the market?

408 MR. M. LEVINSON: It is told with a smile. No, but it is basically ---

409 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did not hear you.

410 MR. M. LEVINSON: I said it is told with a smile. That is what I said.

411 THE CHAIRPERSON: On radio?

412 MR. M. LEVINSON: On radio, that is right.

413 THE CHAIRPERSON: You should do very well.

414 MR. M. LEVINSON: You know, basically, once again, it is a matter of content and context in terms of as a station focused on what is great about our city, you know, news is still important to residents but we would probably shy away from murders and, you know, what we call the bad news and focus more on the news of interest and the world events that shape what is going on.

415 So how is that different? The best I can say is it is different based on content in terms of what our focus is going to be as opposed to the fact that yes, any station can be delivering news and weather, and once again, as part of a service for tourism and resident information, weather is a key factor. What may be different is how that weather impacts on their activities they may be wanting to do.

416 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you familiar with the amount of traffic and weather information and international news, et cetera, that are unconventional stations because, you know, there are some events in the world that no smile will help?

417 MR. M. LEVINSON: Well, for example -- yes, you are right, there are some events that also may affect -- we can think of some recent events that affected international travel. That has a huge impact on people visiting Ottawa or planning on leaving. If there is an event that means our airport is shut down or flights are restricted or flights are -- you know, hurricanes, whatever, these obviously are -- that's a type of event.

418 Yes there is lots of this sort of information on other stations but, once again, it's a matter of the intent and the focus of where we bring the message.

419 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you will focus with me on your definition of what you propose as a condition of licence to define your programming, which is at the bottom of page 3 of your first September letter, I already discussed the aspect of not replicating the programming. But let me focus on the phrase that says while -- quote:

"...offering an information and music service."

420 From what I understand this morning, we could say offering 50 per cent information, 50 per cent music, Mr. Canales?

421 MR. CANALES: Yes, madam.

422 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have not made it clear to me, or in your application anyway, how much of the programming will be live. Will it be only -- no, I think you do say at page 5 that you will be live from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. and all day Saturday and Sunday; is that correct? Page 5 of the letter.

423 MR. CANALES: Yes, madam. That is the minimum.

424 THE CHAIRPERSON: 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. live, and what will the rest -- how will the rest be programmed? I think you also say on that same page, closer to the bottom, that you will not have a programming loop. So after 7:00 p.m. there will be 10 minutes per hour of spoken word, 7:00 to midnight?

425 MR. CANALES: First of all, just to clarify earlier, and where we differ with existing stations, I think some of the programming were offered on a continuous basis, 18 hours a day; in fact, 20 hours a day; 18 hours a day for the sake of the broadcasting week. Some of the stations do not offer, like for example traffic, on a 24 hours a day basis.

426 To address specifically in terms of what will happen after 7:00 o'clock, our intentions are to have live and interactive programming on 18 hours a day, but for the sake of potential revenues and projections that we have done on the low power, our abilities are curtailed to cutback that service at 7:00 p.m. After 7:00 p.m. we will have an automated service which will have pre-recorded spoken word content.

427 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you have mentioned again this morning some possible arrangement with the National Capital Commission. What would that be?

428 MR. CANALES: Well, it is an informal arrangement at this point. We have had discussions with them. They have expressed their interest and their intervention personally to us of having a radio service in both official languages is their preference. Their broadcasts -- Mr. Gedeon has expressed supreme interest in working with us in radio decisions, and it is an interest -- a participation that currently does not receive from on-air broadcasters. I think he is self-explanatory in his intervention. It is, as I say, informal. But we are prepared to cooperate with them and with the French community station should they be awarded a licence for handling the French content of the information.

429 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in --

430 MR. M. LEVINSON: I am sorry. I just want to add to that for a minute. Sorry.

431 For those Commissioners who may not be that familiar with the Ottawa region, the National Capital Commission, the NCC, are basically pretty well the focal point of tourism for Ottawa. While we have an Ottawa Tourism Convention Authority, which is an association, the NCC have the money and the clout to do things and actually take the lead.

432 For example, the Visitor's Centre that is operated is run by the National Capital Commission. They basically are the organization that consolidate a great deal of the tourism data and information for dissemination to the tourist organizations. So they play a lead role in the community in terms of tourism information and, therefore, are interested in working with us to be able to share that information with us, to get on air.

433 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I understood well, the amount of spoken word is more than what I see on the chart, since it says 50 per cent rather than 21 per cent.

434 Where would the information that you propose to broadcast for the benefit of tourists and the NCC, where would that be in your broadcast day? Where would that be in the hours?

435 MR. M. LEVINSON: Well, there is a couple of areas. One is the area we label as "events". It is basically a short listing of the top events of the city.

436 We also intend to air, for lack of a better word, features, interviews and whatnot, with what is going on in the city and talk about events and attractions and that. That's not really part of the program because they fit in where they do.

437 Of course, as we mentioned today, in working with an advisory board of the industry players, you know, this is something that is going to be finetuned and improved upon over time, to make sure that we best meet the needs of the community in that regard.

438 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your supplementary brief at page 1, you also talk about arrangements possible with the City and the Department of Public Works and Transportation "to provide necessary signage and promotion". Have you made actual arrangements for this already?

439 MR. M. LEVINSON: At this point in time, no.

440 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you spoken to these bodies about your plans?

441 MR. CANALES: Madam, if I may add?

442 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

443 MR. CANALES: One of the associated companies of the Levinson group is Velocity Media who already has a contract with the city to disseminate information and advertisements throughout bicycle racks and prominent spaces throughout the region. So it would be a natural for us to fit the radio station promotions right in there as a continuation of our service.

444 Plus, we plan to meet with Gatineau and Ottawa people to enhance the visibility of the station and the accessibility of it.

445 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, in your brief at page 2, you raise the matter of "including the interactive services of book direct". Could you explain further how that would work? This would be an interactive website or would that be right on the air?

446 MR. M. LEVINSON: No, certainly, we expect the radio station to be supported by a website and take full advantage of -- you know, information of course on the radio is fleeting, for lack of a better word, and therefore it is going to be supported by a website so that people who hear information can get more detail from the website. It is also going to be powered by an e-commerce system in order to book hotels, purchase tickets, that sort of thing.

447 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where are you with any arrangements with Where magazine, also raised in your supplementary brief?

448 MR. M. LEVINSON: Just that we have an agreement that should we receive a radio licence that we have an opportunity to work together, and they are very interested.

449 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your original application at 5.1 you talked about six minutes of advertising per hour. Then in your deficiency response of 1 September you spoke of 10 minutes per hour. Somehow in the middle of these two, you had filed financial projections based on 10 minutes of advertising or six minutes of advertising?

450 MR. M. LEVINSON: Six minutes.

451 Le me clarify that. We request 10, but we have budgeted it based on six.

452 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I look at these projections, the ratio of local to national sales, national sales are much higher than other FM proposals, any FM proposal, and higher than any experience the Commission has generally about the number of local ads as a ratio of the total ads on a radio station.

453 How do you explain that the national ads ratio would be much higher than on an average FM station?

454 MR. CANALES: Madam Chair, if I may?

455 Actually, it is a direct proportion to the national time sales represented by the CRTC on the 2003 reported on the market that we are associating with it. But we consider the federal government, being this is the hometown of the federal government, as a national advertiser, whether that would come as a direct basis or through an advertising agency. So it helps to, I guess, augment the level.

456 But if you notice, in the projections, there is a column that shows the 2003 market performance. Our projection is it has a direct correlation to the national sales in the market.

457 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why would the fact that it is Ottawa and the federal government increase national ads? You are expecting the federal government to buy time?

458 MR. CANALES: By all means.

459 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because I would have thought that it was the opposite in this city. There is probably less business than anywhere else.

460 MR. McCANN: If I may intervene?

461 We now have two advertising mediums right now in effect and we could very well seamlessly bring over all our advertisers, our current advertisers, right now into a radio station if it is granted, quite easily.

462 MR. CANALES: If I may add to that, madam, I think our experience -- certainly, my experience has been, for over 25 years in dealing with the federal government, that there is an approach of sort of kind of waiting for the actual buy that the federal government will do their official ad agency and their so-so direct approach in dealing with the departments.

463 Recently, I was able to, for example, solicit and obtain commitments from a direct federal department of over $20,000. Some think that wouldn't normally come through traditional advertising bases. Sometimes the departments of the federal government make decisions like anything else on a direct basis on -- non-traditionally to the ad agency business, but that business in our predictions is considered a national business.

464 MR. M. LEVINSON: And I will just add to that and say that one other thing to bear in mind is, once again, the niched focus of this station would lend itself to government purchasing advertising that would be much more focussed and be able to get a message across to a visitor or a tourist that the government may want to advertise.

465 As well, another word about national sales is we also -- there are local organizations that are part of a multinational or a national organization; for example, McDonald's, and that we would put in under national sales, even though it is actually a local organization. That is how we would consider an organization such as McDonald's.

466 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have provided in your first response to the Commission's question, I believe, a breakdown in the percentages of the sources of the advertising that you expect. Was that breakdown provided on the basis of high power or low power?

467 It is to be found on page 4 of the initial deficiency response, which is July 6 '04. Have you calculated this on the basis of high power or low power with a 25 per cent of your revenues coming from existing local radio stations?

468 MR. CANALES: One moment, please.

469 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is on page 4, answer to question 6. Your letter is dated 6 July '04.

--- Pause

470 MR. CANALES: I believe that was on the basis of full power.

471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of full power, thank you.

472 You filed a technical brief on the 21^st of April '04, and at 5.2 of your application you estimated the population that you would reach; in other words, that would be within the contour of your station propagation; that in a number of households as well as the number of population. Was that calculated on the basis of low power as filed?

473 I am looking at 5.2 of the application form where you say that:

"...within the 3 mV/m contour you will reach 135,254 persons and 72,489 households."

474 MR. SADOUN: These numbers are based on the low-power station because they are referenced to the low-power technical brief.

475 THE CHAIRPERSON: What would your 3 mV/m -- what population in households would it reach with high power?

476 MR. SADOUN: Just give me a moment.

477 THE CHAIRPERSON: At class A.

478 MR. SADOUN: At class A we are talking about for the 3 mV, 706,000 or so people, and for the 0.5 mV, 951,000.

479 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

480 You have indicated as well, at page 8 of your letter of August '04, that you have identified four other frequencies that you could use. Would any engineering brief that you would file on any of these other frequencies, should we authorize your proposal, be on low power or high power?

481 MR. SADOUN: Well, depending on the choice of Levinson, there are certain numbers of frequencies other than the ones being heard on today. There is two left that would offer an acceptable coverage and it would be possible to operate these frequencies at higher powers and low-power parameters.

482 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would your intention be to file these technical briefs at more than a maximum of 50 watts and a maximum of 60 metres for -- the antenna can produce as a coverage?

483 My question is would you apply on an unprotected status or a protected status on the frequencies that you say could be available?

484 MR. M. LEVINSON: I am not sure of your question. In terms of --

485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You say that you have -- you can identify other frequencies. Once you have identified those frequencies, whatever they are called, or those channels, would it be your intention if we gave an approval to your proposal but come back with another frequency, would you come back at a low-power unprotected status or at high power?

486 MR. M. LEVINSON: I think I would sort of answer this question with a question.

487 THE CHAIRPERSON: But do you understand now my point?

488 MR. M. LEVINSON: Yes, I do understand your question.

489 I think it goes back to what the CRTC's position is with --

490 THE CHAIRPERSON: It goes back to your application.

491 MR. M. LEVINSON: Yes. As I say, it goes back to the CRTC's position in terms of how they view and value the type of service that we are offering in the marketplace in terms of high power or low power.

492 You know, high power -- on one hand, my understanding is that with the CRTC they look at high power and low power as two very separate beasts. They are very different things as you look at them. Because I am not a veteran of the radio industry, I personally have looked at them in terms of reach and, therefore, from a perspective of the service we want to offer, we would like to be able to maximize the reach as well as have consistency in terms of frequency. So it also goes to -- in terms of protected or unprotected, if one is trying to establish a service has become an important and valued part of the airwaves of the region, do we want this frequency to be protected on an ongoing basis or not?

493 So I first talked -- that is more of a philosophical answer. The short answer, then, is basically we would apply it based on what we were allowed to do.

494 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

495 Usually, we try to allow people to do what they apply for.

--- Laughter / Rires

496 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where we can.

497 Commissioner Williams, please.

498 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning.

499 Mr. Levinson, Sr., I guess, I am intrigued by your opening remarks where you describe your business activities in the National Capital region over the past 100 years.

500 My area of interest is in your comments where you stated your Ottawa/Hull businesses were expropriated. What were these businesses and what were the circumstances of the expropriation?

501 MR. J. LEVINSON: They were a salvage business. We were expropriated in Ottawa by the National Capital Commission and in Hull, or now Gatineau, we were expropriated by the municipality.

502 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

504 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Two questions. You mentioned in answering Madam Wiley's questions -- Mr. Canales, you mentioned interaction with the audience. Does that need to be interpreted as open lines or call ins?

505 MR. CANALES: Not necessarily. I think that this basically describes the services more of a live as opposed to a pre-recorded message, and the audience certainly will be welcome to call in. They may not necessarily be going on air as an open line show but we certainly are going to be -- more visible interaction with the audience.

506 We had planned to broadcast the radio station from multiple locations into the Ottawa/Gatineau region to add visibility to it and create that kind of a feel for it.

507 COMMISSIONER NOËL: When you say "not necessarily" does that mean that it could happen that there would be open lines?

508 MR. CANALES: No. In any case, I think we had answered to that previously. We will -- any over the air comment that comes in from the audience will be pre-recorded before it goes or, in any case, if it was a call, it will be with a seven-second delay.

509 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

510 My second question is concerning the commitment you made to the community, the French community licence application, to Mr. Brunelle's application of $35,714 a year, if I look at the figures you filed this morning, for a total of $250,000 over seven years.

511 Did I understand you to say that this was some sort of a tradeoff to have the cooperation of the National Capital Commission, or do you view this as a Canadian Talent Development commitment over and above the $27,000 a year that you committed this morning to give to FACTOR?

512 MR. CANALES: Actually, we know that the $250,000 commitment to the French communities applicant is not eligible Canadian Talent Development.

513 However, in lieu of the fact that, you know, our strongest intervener supporter in this case would be the NCC, which would be the supreme agency in charge of the area, and their willingness and our acceptance to dealing in both official languages, and our adversity to try to operate a bilingual station for commercial reasons other than confusing the audience, we don't think the area has enough of a spectrum to carry two frequencies, one in English and one in French.

514 We think the benefit will go better to somebody that already has the project on the go and wanted to participate in this and apply some of the content that we have into it. We have met with the principals and they have agreed to that and they embrace that.

515 So I thought that was the --

516 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And I understand you to say that this is not to be viewed as CTD?

517 MR. CANALES: Yes, you are correct.

518 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

519 I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

520 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

521 We usually give you an opportunity to answer questions we didn't ask.

--- Laughter / Rires

522 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you usually have two-three minutes to tell us why your proposal, which is competitive in the market with 15 other applications -- because we have 16 applicants before us -- tell us why your proposal should be licenced.

523 MR. CANALES: Madam Chair, I am just going to leave you and let Michael take on, but basically I just want to add one main strong point.

524 Where we differ from the rest of the radio stations in the market presently is our total focus will be promoting the events that are happening to the market. So even when we talk about announcers talking, their overall direction of the conversation with the audience will be towards promoting what is happening in Ottawa/Gatineau today, right now; where can you go; where can you go this Saturday, et cetera.

525 Michael.

526 MR. M. LEVINSON: I just lost my thought for a second. What he said -- no, plus, just a thought as well where the future of radio is going and what we should be thinking about in terms of utilizing the scarce frequencies.

527 With the coming of satellite radio, as an example, we are going to see that the consumer is going to have a choice of virtually any type of musical format at their command.

528 Therefore, where does that leave the local spectrum? I believe it is very important to have a place for the type of local content that we propose, something that supports the economy, the area, encourages the local residents to feel good about the place they live and become ambassadors to help bring more people in.

529 I want to emphasize that one of the strongest weapons we have, I guess, in being a major tourist destination in this city are the local residents and really promoting and educating them to best take advantage of the city is a good place to start to help build that, as well as informing the tourists that come in of what the choices are and have a better idea.

530 I just also will emphasize that with visitors there is a lot of, I guess, confusion between what we think about tourists and all you tend to think about visitors, because everybody who comes to this city, including our distinguished Commissioners, are potentially tourists in this city to take advantage of everything the city has to offer. We see our radio stations being a service to help provide that type of information.

531 We thank you for your time.

532 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Hancock and gentlemen.

533 We will hear the presentation of the following applicant and do the questioning after the lunchbreak. We have to leave at 12:30 -- so that it doesn't interrupt it.

534 I don't know if that is a problem for anyone.

535 So after the presentation we will adjourn and be back at 2:00, as it probably is going to take us some time to get to the office and back in this weather.

536 Monsieur le Secrétaire, s'il vous plait.

537 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.

538 Item 3 of the agenda is an application by Christian Hit Radio Incorporated for a licence to operate an English-language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Ottawa. The new station would operate on frequency 98.5 MHz on channel 253B with an average effective radiated power of 4,120 watts.

539 The applicant is proposing a Christian music service with 80 per cent of its weekly total music drawn from Sub-category 35 and the applicants are proposing to broadcast 116 hours per week of religious spoken word programming.

--- Pause

540 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, and proceed when you are ready.

541 Order, please.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

542 MR. TURCOTTE: Good morning, Madam Chair, and Members of the Commission.

543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Could we have some order in the room, please, at the back?

544 MR. TURCOTTE: Again, good morning. Good noon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, and staff.

545 I am Gerry Turcotte. I am the Chairman of Christian Hit Radio Inc.

546 We are presenting an application, as was outlined, for a licence for a religious FM station to serve Ottawa at 98.5 FM, channel 253B, to be broadcast as a directional signal from Greely, Ontario at 4,120 watts with an effective radiant power and 25,000 watts maximum. We provisionally call this station "Inspo-FM".

547 Our panel is made up of local citizens, most of whom are with the Board of Directors, plus a former member of the Board, Joanne Nadeau, and JoAnne is sitting back here.

548 As well, we have Rabbi Arnold Fine to the right of me here, who is recently retired from the congregation Agudath Israel, a now interim rabbi of Beth Shalom congregation. He is also Chaplain of the Jewish Family Services. He is a founding Chairman of the Christian Jewish Dialogue and of Christian-Jewish- Muslim Trialogue, as well as a patron of the Multi-faith Housing Initiative. As I say, he is sitting to my right.

549 Rabbi Fine will be addressing the balance of programming that we are proposing for the new station.

550 The other members of our panel are Fay Chao, a member of the Chinese community. Fay is a little tight on time and will have to leave. She is going to address our proposed specialty programming, time allowing.

551 We also have recording artist Karen Lahaise, who by the way has an exceptionally beautiful voice to those who have heard her. She will address music programming.

552 We are also blessed to have televison and radio broadcaster Elizabeth Strom; Simona Wambera, business analyst, and Bob Du Broy, to my right, General Manager of the existing station CHRI-FM. He is going to cover market and financial information.

553 We are here to make the case that we have a quality application in which we propose what we believe is an excellent product for which there is a high demand. We believe that Inspo-FM would add significant diversity in programming content and news voices to this market and we believe that Inspo-FM will not draw revenue away from existing stations. The Commission already knows that Ottawa is a robust and growing ad revenue market for radio.

554 I would like to begin by saying that our existing contemporary Christian music station in Ottawa, CHRI-FM, has established Christian Hit Radio Inc. as a responsible, successful, vital broadcaster in our nearly eight years on the air.

555 We are the only locally-owned and operated commercial station in Ottawa and we are present at all sorts of community events. I give full credit to Bob Du Broy for using his staff to do that.

556 We provided a showcase for the Christian musicians in Canada on the air and on stage by sponsoring over 100 concerts and three international festivals.

557 None of this would be possible without CHRI-FM.

558 We have partnered with several local and national charities like Ottawa Inter-city Ministries and Compassion Canada to help hundreds of the poorest of the poor. We write about 80 free public service announcements for churches and other charities at any given time, at a rate of 30 a day.

559 We have meticulously complied with the religious broadcasting policy. In an age of obvious increasing vulgarity on radio, it is CHRI-FM that has become widely-known as a wholesome radio option for young families, something that I particularly appreciate.

560 The CRTC keeps stats on the growth of complaints about offensive radio content which we have reproduced in table 1 of the documents you have.

561 The existing station, CHRI-FM, is terrific at reaching young adults with contemporary music, but there is another half of the faith community that wants to hear something more serious; public affairs programming, teaching shows and traditional worship music. This is not currently offered by radio in Ottawa but tens of thousands of more mature people like me want to hear it.

562 Christian Hit Radio knows this market in Ottawa and we are ready to deliver the programming they want. Toronto, Montreal, Kingston and Vancouver now get this kind of programming from U.S. stations and we have provided this in Table 2 of the documents you have.

563 Tables 3 and 4 in the same document shows the cities that are the size of Ottawa from half a million to a million and a half that are typically served by four Christian radio stations, each usually serving a different age segment.

564 Bob is going to cover the market and the formats. So we will turn it over to Bob now.

565 Bob.

566 MR. Du BROY: There is a little more that we can tell you about the U.S. experience and for the proposed format for what we call Inspo-FM.

567 Table 5 shows that about 16 per cent of U.S. religious radio stations have formats similar to CHRI-FM with our contemporary Christian music, and that serves the under 45 years of age market. But about 73 per cent of the stations have formats that are similar to the one we propose for Inspo-FM, serving the 45-plus age market.

568 I am kind of straddling the two, personally.

569 Although CHRI has done well, Inspo-FM can be expected to do even better, based on the prevalence of the teaching and traditional music formats in the U.S.

570 A market study of Ottawa churchgoing households by e-qual-IT Consultants Inc., which was included in our application, indicated that although some older listeners would transfer their listening time from CHRI-FM to Inspo-FM, listening hours overall across the two stations would be expected to at least double. Some of this would happen at the expense of erosion of CBC listenership.

571 Table 6 shows that there is a larger churchgoing population in Ottawa above 45 years of age, than between 15 and 44. This is a combination of the numbers of people in those population groups and the percentages going to church. This means that Inspo-FM has an even larger potential audience than CHRI-FM if we use churchgoing numbers as a surrogate for our potential audience.

572 There are now at least three examples of Canadian cities that are served by two Christian or somewhat religious stations, which I have listed in table 7.

573 I want to get back to the age categories. We found that the 45-plus age group is not well served in the English commercial -- by English commercial in Ottawa. There is currently no Easy Listening or Beautiful Music station in Ottawa, which are inspirational music, which we propose Inspo-FM would sound a lot like. Table 8 shows this. Inspo-FM would meet a growing need as the population matures.

574 CHRI-FM has demonstrated that the introduction of a Christian music station to the market enlarges the advertising pie. It does not take revenue away from existing stations. It does this in two ways. We have increased total hours tuned by drawing previously unserved listeners, but we also attract affinity advertisers that agree with the station's wholesome sound and may not be attracted to other stations.

575 Inspo-FM would go one step further. Its main commercial revenue source would be from airtime buys from local churches and syndicated programs. So I have listed some of these. The two Canadian distributors have committed for Inspo-FM in Table 9. They are Eagle-Com out of Vancouver and C. Reimer Advertising out of Winnipeg.

576 There are many more local Canadian and international producers ready to buy the time, almost none of which can find another outlet in the Ottawa market. Existing Ottawa stations are not pursuing our affinity advertisers and syndicated shows. We believe that Inspo-FM is the most effective use of 98.5 FM. Table 10 indicates that Inspo FM received over twice as many positive interventions as the next closest proposal for 98.5 and about 500 more interventions than the other applicants. I might add that we attracted no negative interventions.

577 Further, we have some serious concerns about 98.5 causing our existing station at 99.1 third adjacency interference unless they are co-sited, which is what we are proposing for our youths at 98.5 at the Manotick or, more precisely, our Greely transmitter site.

578 We are proposing substantial locally-produced and Canadian-produced content, as shown in Table 11. This, and our international programming, are just about 100 per cent unduplicated on Ottawa radio currently. With news reports from T. Hern Media and, we hope, simulcast from CJOH local news, as well as daily 15-minute international news reports from Radio Vatican, Inspo-FM will add considerable diversity to the news voices on Ottawa radio.

579 Karen will now talk to you about Canadian music.

580 MS LAHAISE: Good morning.

581 CHRI-FM has done wonders for promoting Canadian contemporary recording artists. However, this station has been able to do little for Canadian traditional praise in music, Gospel, Liturgical and Inspirational artists. You will find a list of such artists on Table 12. I should point out that I am on that list.

582 Inspo-FM would correct the situation through airplay, sponsoring concerts and contributing to charts, just like CHRI-FM is doing for contemporary artists now.

583 CHRI FM consistently exceeds the Canadian content requirement for specialty music and Inspo-FM plans to do so as well. Inspo-FM proposes two Canadian Talent Development programs that will specifically target the needs of artists in the Canadian Christian music industry, which is still in its infancy.

584 The first is a local annual talent search, and the second is a scholarship plan that would allow musicians from across the country to attend music business seminars sponsored by the Canadian Gospel Music Association. The annual cash cost to the station will exceed $8,000, not counting the labour and airtime needed to support these endeavours.

585 The over 40 age category is one of the largest segments of our population and officially, I'm also on that list. I personally have heard from many of these baby boomers who keep asking me: why can't we find more music like yours on the radio? They want to hear easy listening music that is also uplifting.

586 I also personally know many very talented artists who currently do not have a venue for their music. I would like to see a truly Canadian solution to this dilemma. I would like to see our proposed station at 98.5-FM lead the way in this country in both supporting and featuring Canadian artists and composers recorded in Canadian studios.

587 I can't think of anything more discouraging or disheartening than for artists to pour their time, talent, energy and resources into music that has no venue. That happens too much in this country. I believe Inspo-FM will be one way to address that need in our community. That was in your package.

588 Fay will now describe the programming we plan to produce in other languages.

589 MS CHAO: Madam Chairperson and Commissioners, we have received several proposals from the community for programs in languages other than English.

590 These programs would cover community events, interviews with authors and artists, public affairs and religious instruction. In particular, weekly programs in French, Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin and Spanish have been proposed.

591 Table 13 indicates the significance of these language groups in Ottawa. Table 14 gives a distribution of the Chinese population by religion in Canada and Ottawa.

592 I would like to point out that between the two census, 1991 and 2001, the Chinese population in Ottawa, in the Ottawa Region, has doubled in that ten-year period and I would also like to point out that fully one quarter of this population indicated in the census that they are Christians.

593 Bob now has more to say about the populations.

594 MR. DuBROY: Thank you Fay. As you will see in Table 15 as we continue, about looking at population statistics, adherence to non-christian religions make up 7.35 per cent of the population of Ottawa in the 2001 census. This is a population that the Religious Broadcasting Policy would require Inspo-FM to reflect.

595 Rabbi Arnold Fine to my right here will let you know how we propose to do so.

596 RABBI FINE: Good afternoon, madam Chairperson and Commissioners.

597 The challenges to make inter-faith programming time instructional and attracted to the stations may not instruct Christian listeners. Judaism, of course, plays a special role over the identity of Christians and to members of other monolithic faiths, certainly such as the Moslems.

598 A program on the Jewish Bible would, therefore, have the broadest mark that appeal within or without the Christian community.

599 We are proposing a half hour daily program called the "Hebrew scriptures" which would be hosted by me, which would examine the readings of the week and expounding on them from a uniquely Jewish perspective.

600 A proposed 15 minute daily local program called "The ancient faiths" would have a broader religious scope. Local moslem, buddhist, hindu, sheik and jewish, in this case myself, religious leaders and other groups would be asked questions like: what is heaven? How do you live a life pleasing to your God and describe your sacred readings?

601 The inspirational station would run the "Hebrew Scriptures" and the "Ancient Faiths" twice a day, for a total one hour and 30 minutes or a 10.5 hours per week, which is 6.25 per cent of the broadcast week or 9 per cent of the religious spoken word programming on the station.

602 We would also include other faiths and newscasts and we would invite calls from members of other faiths during open line shows. This way we can present solid information from other faiths in a way that would be attracted to the predominant Christian audience of the inspirational religious station.

603 Simona will now tell us why she is looking forward to NSPO-FM.

604 MS WAMBERA: Good afternoon, madam Chair and Commissioners.

605 Currently, CHRI-FM is the only Ottawa station that I listen to. However, as mature Christian audiences such as myself are seeking more programming that provides traditional music and content that offers food for the heart, mind and soul.

606 As a future listener of NSPO-98, I'm excited about its proposed programming because it offers the type of content that I desire, but currently can only find by listening to U.S. radio stations.

607 This includes items of interest to me as a woman, namely programs such as "Woman to Woman" with Phyllis Wallace and "The Christian Working Woman" with Mary Welchel. With this in mind, Bob will talk more about programming.

608 MR. DuBROY: Thank you, Simona. The Contemporary Christian music format of our existing station at CHRI-FM appeals to tens of thousands of listeners, particularly females aged 18 to 44 and we see them every day as they come to pick up prizes for our contests, we meet them at events. So, our instinct tells us... confirms the statistics.

609 One of our core artists, Newsboys, attracted over 2,500 fans to their concert at the Civic Centre and this would be only a small portion of our overall audience. The festival we sponsor attracts over 10,000. One of our Canadian success stories, Steve Bell from Winnipeg, brings in 500 to 1,000 people to his yearly concert when he comes to Ottawa.

610 Now, we have stretched the boundaries of the format of contemporary Christian music as far as we can, playing at times adult contemporary, contemporary hit radio, urban, pure gospel and rock music as well as music in French and for children. This is about as big as you can make the limits for contemporary Christian music.

611 As you may recall from Appendix 1-A-2 of our application we have reproduced several e-mails and letters from older people which sample CHRI-FM and wanted something different. These are representative of the phone calls we get practically monthly, asking for Bible teaching and traditional worship music and this is what our audience in the over 45 segment has been telling us and we know how to serve them well, we know them well and we know how to please them with NSPO-FM. But CHRI-FM does not have the time to do that.

612 In other parts of Canada, some ethnic stations and U.S. border stations carry the syndicated religious shows we are proposing to carry on NSPO-FM. As a Canadian religious station, I believe NSPO-FM could best package and promote the shows and effectively reach their audience in Ottawa at 98.5-FM.

613 We are very careful about complying with the Religious Broadcasting Policy. Gerry Turcotte will now give us our concluding remarks.

614 MR. TURCOTTE: So, obviously, we believe that CHRI-FM has proven itself vital to the Ottawa faith community and it certainly gives invaluable support to proper belief organizations and to musicians and to enriching our culture.

615 We have also shared our technical expertise and other resourcing with the growing family of Christian music stations right across the country. Many people have told us they couldn't imagine Ottawa without CHRI-FM, so deep is our audience loyalty. I personally heard them say this, so this is not made up for this; it's true.

616 We now propose reaching in older demographic with a message of hope and comfort on NSPO-FM at 98.5 megahertz. We have been good corporate citizens at CHRI-FM and plan to do even more good for the faith community in our city of Ottawa and beyond with NSPO-FM. The audience is ready, programming is ready, the revenue is ready.

617 In closing, madam Chairman, we respectfully request the licence for this proposed new station and I thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this noon. We would be pleased to reply to your questions when it occurs.

618 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Turcotte, did I hear you say that a member of your panel could not be back at 2:00?

619 MR. TURCOTTE: That's correct. Fay Chao will have to leave. She has a funeral which will take a bit...

620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it...

621 MR. TURCOTTE: She has already left.

622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh! She has?

623 MR. TURCOTTE: Yes.

624 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't consider that it makes it difficult to answer our questions because we have to be at the office in 15 minutes. Can you manage at 2:00 with the people you have left?

625 MR. TURCOTTE: We could make it back for 2:00? With the exception of Fay Chao, most could be here at 2:00, yes.

626 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that does not create a problem for you?

627 MR. TURCOTTE: Not instrumental, no.

628 THE CHAIRPERSON: No?

629 MR. TURCOTTE: There will be some details that Fay was going to carry that we won't be able to say.

630 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. We will come back at 2:00 and perhaps attempt to ask any questions we have of you at the beginning so that you can leave, if necessary. Thank you.

631 We will be back then at 2:00. Nous retournons... reprendrons à 2 h 00, 1400.

--- Upon recessing at 1209 / Suspension à 1209

--- Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

632 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order please. À l'ordre s'il vous plaît.

633 Welcome back to our hearing. Rebienvenue à tout le monde.

634 Commissioner Langford, please.

635 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Madam Chair.

636 How is the sound here? Can you hear me? Excellent.

637 I know, Rabbi Fine, that you are on a short timetable and I am going to jump right to my questions to you, which are going to seem a little bit out of focus in the whole thing, but I want to give you the opportunity to get off to your next meeting and apologize that we had to kind of break but we had another meeting to go back to at the office. I don't know whether you are getting value in terms of product for your tax dollar but you are getting a lot of energy expended anyway.

638 What I would like to speak to you about, Rabbi Fine, is the whole notion of the, if I could call it, other religious balanced programming that you are going to bring to this application for a Christian station, should the application be successful. I would expect that the rest of the panel can deal later with the larger issue of balanced programming generally, but I would like to hone in specifically on the programming that you are going to be providing.

639 I wonder if we could start with the name of the program that I can't remember -- 30 minutes a day of Hebrew scriptures and 15 minutes a day of ancient faiths. What can you tell me about Hebrew scriptures, sir?

640 RABBI FINE: First of all, I thank you for letting me be the first to be grilled here before you. You sound like rabbis running around. I appreciate that. I guess I am getting my money for my tax dollar.

641 The Hebrew scriptures, as I understood it and as I have discussed this with Mr. Du Broy, is basically going to be focusing on the weekly reading from -- in the Jewish community. Our tradition is that we read the entire five books of Moses, Genesis through Deuteronomy, in the space of a year. We go through that cycle every year.

642 Then my job would be to focus on certain aspects of each of the weekly readings, bring the insights of the Jewish tradition, the Rabbinic, the classical medieval commentators or the modern materials that are now coming forth bringing all kinds of insights hopefully.

643 I also have the hope that we will be bringing in other religious leaders, both lay and professional religionists, to discuss some of the ideas that I have evoked. So it will be an opportunity basically for a discussion of the scriptures or maybe other materials that will be coming through, for instance, the Jewish prayer book or we have a weekly reading from the books, from the prophets, material like that, or a holiday that is coming up that would have a biblical base.

644 That is how I see it at the present time.

645 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You are going to be doing a half hour a day. Is that correct?

646 RABBI FINE: That's correct.

647 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Leaving aside for a moment invited guests after you have hit your stride and get used to your new career here as a radio host, typically how do you see that half hour breaking out? Would you be reading today's passage from scriptures and then explaining it, kind of just a half an hour monologue? How exactly would you see this -- what would I hear if I turned on the radio? I suppose that is --

648 RABBI FINE: Hopefully, you would hear a lot more than a monologue.

649 I do not want this to be a sermon but I do want it to evoke certain ideas that have been the underpinnings of who we are as Jews for a long, long time.

650 I have every expectation that there will be people who when hearing this will call me heretic because it will disagree with where they are going. The station tells me they have no problem with that.

651 I have every expectation there will be people who will want to have further discussion. Perhaps in the process of doing that we may invite them to somehow or other be part of this program. I think we are going to be very much in a learning curve to see how this will really shake out.

652 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But I want to ask the same question again. I appreciate the context you are putting it in, but I am trying in my own mind to imagine what I will hear when I turn on the radio. You don't have to be the whole half hour for me here, but what is it I am going to hear? You must have given this some thought. I don't expect you to be Cecil B. DeMille at this point and have a complete extravagant production set in your mind, but what might I hear when I turn on the radio and your show is coming on?

653 RABBI FINE: You would probably start off by hearing some music, Jewish liturgical music, or perhaps something out of modern Israel which might feed into what we are doing for the day.

654 There may be a story or a legend, a rabbinic legend, that is brought forth that will illuminate the verse or verses that I am going to be discussing or perhaps some ideas that are going to be discussed.

655 At least initially it will be monologic. Hopefully, it will grow beyond that. In the process of that time I hope we will be able to develop the idea, where it is today and where we in the Jewish community see ourselves in regard to this idea.

656 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you envisage doing one of these every day, 365 days a year?

657 RABBI FINE: I believe we are going to be doing it five times a week and, yes, I see that.

658 I am now retired or at least semi-retired. I have an awful lot of time --

659 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's what you think.

--- laughter / rire

660 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's quite a pace. I mean, anybody in radio or television will tell you a show a day is a lot. I don't in any way want to question your energy level, but that is a lot of radio.

661 MR. DU BROY: If I may, Commissioner?

662 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Absolutely. Anybody can answer this. I am just trying to help Rabbi Fine meet his daily schedule, but anybody can step into this.

663 MR. DU BROY: These programs will be timeless. They will be following a liturgical cycle but they can be recorded well in advance.

664 One plan that Rabbi Fine and I have discussed is should we be awarded the licence we would begin production right away and build up an inventory. Some of it would be timely in the sense that we might have an interview guest who is available only that week, but we would hope to have a supply build ahead of time.

665 Then, when we get into the second and third years, some of the best of the previous recordings will be recycled.

666 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Gosh, how do I ask a man who has devoted his entire life to religion whether there is enough here to go forward with forever and forever, so take it in the spirit of simply trying to assess whether there is enough production capacity in the well here. Assuming we get through year one, is there going to be enough original material to get through year two and year three and year four?

667 RABBI FINE: I have been a rabbi for nearly 40 years. I used to ask myself that question on a regular basis. Either God has been providing me or else the tradition has been providing me, but somehow or other it has always been different.

668 Some congregates may not like it, but it has always been different and there is always lots and lots of material.

669 We refer to the Talmud as a sea and there is an awful lot on the surface of the sea and down below the waves. There is plenty there. That is not my concern.

670 My concern is, as you suggested earlier, finding the energy to make sure that there is something new and hopefully vibrant each time.

671 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Speaking about diving beneath the sea a little bit, if I can borrow your image, is there scope here for doing comparative religious studies, if I can call it that, for bringing in other religious traditions, in other words, not making this simply the half hour Jewish slot to use the old TV-radio jargon, but to in fact expand it into more of what the Commission, in its regulatory pronouncements, has talked about in the sense of balanced programming?

672 Are there opportunities here for comparative studies?

673 RABBI FINE: Absolutely, and I would expect that. I have already been in discussion as to the fact that I would expect some of my Jewish colleagues, an awful lot of us here in town, but also a lot of my friends in the Christian clergy here in the city or perhaps even my friends in the Muslim clergy, to be part of the discussion on this on a regular basis. That would be something that I would look forward to. Frankly, it would make my life a lot easier in terms of the production of the material.

674 I have had experience in this in the past. You may remember there was a program on local radio here in Ottawa about 15 years ago. It was called Focus Religion. I and a Protestant minister and a Catholic priest, you know, the traditional triumvirate, we were on for about seven years until the station changed its format.

675 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you are still speaking?

--- laughter / rire

676 RABBI FINE: We are very good friends.

677 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's excellent news.

678 Are you going to have a hand as well in the second aspect, the ancient faith segment, the 15-minute segment?

679 RABBI FINE: We have only discussed that preliminarily so I really can't talk. Perhaps Mr. Du Broy or somebody else can answer that. Right now all I am focusing on is that half our segment.

680 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Who will be doing the production? Are you going to be working with the radio station or is this something you will do completely by yourself. How do you envisage this happening?

681 RABBI FINE: I am adventurous, but not that adventurous, sir.

682 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There are some people who have a relationship with a third party producer that they have developed over the years and may want to do it that way.

683 RABBI FINE: Not I, sir.

684 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. So it is going to be an in-house production.

685 I think those are my questions, Rabbi Fine, specifically to you. The rest of the panel won't get off that easily, I'm afraid, but I thank you very much if you have to go or if you want to stay around for awhile I leave that in your hands.

686 Maybe now we could turn, ladies and gentlemen, to the more general application and focus on it.

687 I want to say at the outset that I have got quite a few questions. I know that you, like all applicants, come here with an enormous amount of energy and optimism. Then some grinch like me starts picking on the little stuff and you wonder why.

688 There is no ulterior motive other than to simply get a full picture of it. I have questions. I always say to people when I ask questions they are questions. They are not secret statements or hidden messages.

689 I don't want you to come away from this saying: gosh, he never had one good word to say; just picky question after picky question. What I'm trying to do is flesh out what is a very complete application, but I do have some question areas. They are not simply mine. Staff helps us work on these questions.

690 Just with that in mind, I want you to know that I will be working with you on trying to understand a little more of this inspirational format, which is kind of a new adjective for me on the regulatory side of this.

691 I have been looking at a breakdown of sort of music program versus spoken word program. I have been looking at some of your local programming trying to get a better understanding of exactly what that is. I want to do some looking with you at the news and how exactly you are going to present that, some of the opportunities for simulcasting other people's news. I am not quite sure how that will work.

692 I want to look at balanced programming. We looked a little bit at a particular bit of it with Rabbi Fine, but I want to look at the overall concept of balanced programming in light of the CRTC's clear regulatory policies. At least I think they are clear. I want to look finally I think at the notion of your business plan, in other words, we will follow the money a little bit and see where it comes from.

693 At the end, Chairperson Wylie says we will give you a chance to give us one more enthusiastic burst as to why you are the logical person for this, but I am afraid, as I say, my questions will be fairly focused and may seem to you a little picky. What I am trying to do, to repeat, is just put a little more flesh where I and staff need it on the application itself.

694 Let's turn right away with that introduction, a little bit wordy, I apologize for that, to the whole notion of this inspirational format. I want to focus initially on the mix of music and spoken word. Quite frankly, in my reading of your application it seems to me that this could be licensed as a spoken word channel and it could be licensed as a music channel, there is so much of each. I am trying to figure out how much of each there really is.

695 Maybe the simplest way would be to rephrase the question I put to Rabbi Fine. On an average day, what I am going to hear in the sense of a breakdown between spoken word and music if I turn to Inspo Radio, as you call it?

696 MR. DU BROY: Commissioner Langford, we are going to look at a couple of sort of definition issues.

697 One is the total number of songs actually played on the station may represent about a quarter or 30 per cent of the air time, but in terms of music programming time it would be about 22 to 25 per cent of the air time. The reason that is an important distinction is because of the religious broadcasting policy.

698 Music in an otherwise spoken word program does not count as a standalone music. The whole half hour or whatever the time period would be considered religious spoken word in the interests of balance. For that reason, for example, a program like Canada's National Bible Hour, which would have two hymns in it and 100 Huntley Street Radio Edition could well have two Canadian songs performed within it. Those half hours would nonetheless be considered religious spoken word programming for the balance calculation.

699 That said, we will have specific time periods that will be exclusively devoted to Christian music and those would amount to about 22 to 25 per cent of the air time.

700 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's talk about that a little bit. What will I hear when I am hearing one of those shows? Is that going to be a locally produced show or is that a show you buy from someone else or a show that you perhaps are taking part of from your existing radio and adding something to? Just give me a little help understanding the music, the 22 per cent.

701 MR. DU BROY: As I see it right now, just about all of our specifically music formatted programs would be produced in house. One of the reasons for that is we want to make sure we give ample time to Canadian content because some of the programs that are sourced outside, some of the syndicated programs, will have international artists on them, so that music wouldn't count towards Cancon. We want to make sure that we have enough of a local showcase and a Canadian showcase for Canadian artists.

702 I would see all of the music programming that we produce, that we put on the air, as produced in house. At least that is the current scenario.

703 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: This will be what you are calling inspirational music. You have given us a play list in this morning's appendices. Maybe you could give me a little more sense of what type of music I am going to be hearing. It is supposed to appeal to my demographic, so perhaps you could even make some comparison's to non-Christian crooners, as it were, so that I could get an idea of what we are going to be hearing here.

704 MR. DU BROY: Surely, Commissioner Langford, you would be more of a CHIR-FM listener with our contemporary sound.

705 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Flattery will not do this one for you I am afraid, sir. You are just going to have to answer the question, but nice try.

706 MR. DU BROY: No wiggle room.

707 Most of the music will be worship music, traditional worship music either through Protestant traditions or Catholic liturgical traditions. If you were in a church service in a more traditional church you would be very familiar with the hymns that we would be playing on the air.

708 There will be some time reserved for what is more of a specialty sound, southern gospel for example, classical sacred music, that will -- although southern gospel is very popular in some areas the titles will straddle the format. Songs like Amazing Grace can be done in a very liturgical style or a southern gospel style and that is the sort of song you will hear a great deal on Inspo-FM.

709 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What is your style, Ms Lahaise? Excuse me, but I am not familiar with your music or if I am familiar --

710 MS LAHAISE: That's okay. Not many people are and that is why I really hope the station is approved.

711 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

712 MS LAHAISE: In my case particularly it is almost really easy listening music. I mean, the current CD that I have out I have parents telling me their five year old loves it because it helps sooth them to sleep. I have songs like The Rose on it, I have songs like Wind Beneath My Wings on it, I have songs like Ava Maria, and I just do a whole bunch of different styles of music, whatever happens to appeal to me or inspire me.

713 As I said, my first CD has that kind of everything from a bit of a pop flavour, so it might be -- my next CD will have a number that Celine Dion did called The Prayer written by a Canadian composer, David Foster. So that is the kind of thing.

714 I think there is a wide range. I think that list by no means is exhaustive. I know there are a lot more local artists and I know a lot of people that are writing their own music, so there is a lot of original compositions that people are doing in a wide variety of styles.

715 I don't know if that helps.

716 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Everything helps.

717 I am just trying to assess. We are looking at an application here which, leaving aside bits of music, if I can use that term, that might come up in the Huntley show or whatever, you know, a song here a song there, part of a spoken word show but still -- but taking your 22 per cent locally-produced music and keeping in mind the scarcity of frequencies, is it not possible to fit this within the present radio station that you have?

718 I mean 22 per cent is a lot of context. In another context, it is a reasonably small piece depending on how you look at it. Why couldn't it be fit into what you have now?

719 MR. DU BROY: It would be a little bit like asking The Bear to have four hours a week of country music or some other very formatted station have a wildly different style in a different time period.

720 Although both stations would be addressing the faith community, there is a tremendous distinction, a dichotomy between the two audiences. This, as I mentioned, is recognized in the U.S. where typically a city Ottawa's size would have four Christian stations and if you were to tune them in 24-hours a day at any time you would find that they have a distinct character, a very distinct sound.

721 Inspo-FM would be definitely for mature listeners. There is no question. It is a bit like CBC. You could have classical music, you could have a very interesting folk artist, then you could have a whole lot of public affairs programming on CBC One, whereas if you tune into a contemporary music station you might have a little bit of public affairs programming, but predominantly you will hear a contemporary music style.

722 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I read a lot of your interveners and it seems to me that, yes, many of them want an expanded type of music. There is no doubt about that.

723 Also many of them, I didn't count them so I won't indulge myself in percentages or numbers, many of them are drawn by the very wholesome, unvulgar, to use your term, Christian kind of sharing of ideology that is there. The music almost seems secondary. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it isn't the first thing that all interveners mention.

724 Let me back up. If you look at true commercial radio, to put it that way, you mentioned The Bear and whatnot, they try to flog a format, they try to cut out a demographic and the only product they really have, other than a little bit of news, is a format. Some of the applications that are before us this week, some are going for an older demographic, some are going for a younger and most seem to say that the middle ground is already taken, but you have something else to sell.

725 You don't just have a musical format to sell and it seems to me that the very number of 22 per cent of your programming is yet another piece of the evidence of that. So why wouldn't something more like a television station's approach to programming work? Very few television stations can come in to us and say, we would like four stations in Ottawa because we have all kinds of different demographics. Essentially, they do the children's programming in the morning, the soap operas in the afternoon and then get into news and prime time and go to the adult demographic there.

726 Is it not conceivable that with a bit of imaginative thinking you could in fact duplicate television success on radio because, as I say, you are not only appealing to a musical taste, you are appealing to a kind of philosophical sensibility as well.

727 Maybe that is an unfair question. Maybe you have just never been asked to look at it that way before, but frequencies are scarce and it seems to me that it is fair to test that ground with you.

728 MR. DU BROY: I have pondered this at length.

729 Television and radio are consumed in very different ways. Television is a block programming product and people will consume television along a horizontal schedule or a vertical schedule, at 7:30 every night they want to watch the same thing or perhaps they will want to watch, I don't know, Saturday afternoon football for six hours, and they consume it in that way.

730 People do not consume radio in the same way. Although CBC and some community stations have block programming, these are really exceptions to the rule. Conventional radio programming wisdom is that what you put out is a bit of a commodity and what you hear at 2:00 in the morning should be the same as what you hear at 2:00 in the afternoon if you want to retain a loyal audience.

731 CHRI-FM has broken some of those rules with rather diverse programming but we don't want to puzzle our listeners to the point where they don't come back, so we have stuck to a contemporary sound with CHRI-FM. In the interests of really succeeding as a commercial station, it is at a point now where really a second station is necessary to reach the different demographic.

732 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me demonstrate how little then I understand what we are dealing with here so that you can have a little fun correcting me -- never a bad thing.

733 Isn't the type of format you are suggesting reasonably block-like? You are going to have a lot of spoken word. I can't imagine that the spoken word won't follow some kind of a schedule.

734 You have talked about Huntley Street so that I know that if I turn it on at seven o'clock that is what I am going to get. If I turn it on at -- let's give Rabbi Fine a schedule time here -- 2:30 in the afternoon I am getting Rabbi Fine. That's what I am getting, comparable to the football game of the week which is on a Monday night on the American stations.

735 I know I can get you at that time, so I am not just turning it on to hear rockabilly music or Celine Dion or alternate music or urban and rap, which I know I will get all day long. In fact, you are telling me that only 22 per cent of your schedule is, whatever, the musical counterpart to that. The rest of it I assume must have some order to it. It is not just going to be people just talking about whatever comes into their head that day. So why isn't it block programming?

736 MR. DU BROY: This is an excellent observation.

737 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you. Now you are getting somewhere. Trying to pretend I'm 23 wasn't doing it. Appealing to my misguided notions of my own IQ level works every time.

738 MR. DU BROY: CHRI-FM is a music station where the commodity approach really makes more sense.

739 Inspo-FM will be more of a series of specialty programs. The one distinctive is that it will be aimed at the more mature demographic. Most of the programming will be either public affairs of interest to the faith community or music of interest to the church community or bible teaching. This thread will run through all of the programming even though every half hour there will be a different host with a variation on the theme. A person would tune into Inspo-FM and immediately recognize it, so there is definitely a signature sound.

740 But you are right, it will be block programming and some people will have their favourites. Some people will prefer Insight for Living over Back to the Bible over one of the different Catholic programs we are suggesting.

741 If somebody was to stick with us on Inspo-FM, much like listening to CBC Radio block programming, they would become very informed at the end of the day. They would really feel like they were on top of a whole lot of issues of interests to the faith community.

742 But you are right, the approach for Inspo-FM is largely block programming.

743 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That brings us sort of to the next kind of difficulty I have, that is, how do I define this? It is clearly not a music station. I mean you are going to appeal to -- and don't let me put words in your mouth, this is my observation at this point in our conversation, it is not a music station at all. It sounds to me like a spoken word station with some blocks of music.

744 Maybe we could go back to question one again and you could just quickly take me from, I don't know, 6:00 in the morning to midnight, just in blocks what am I going to hear? I turn you on at 6:00 in the morning, I turn you off at midnight. What typically am I going to hear? I don't expect you to have a finished schedule at this point, but I would kind of like to know, am I going to hear the first two hours of music and then an hour of spoken word? That kind of thing would be helpful.

745 MR. DU BROY: It will just take me a moment, Commissioner Langford.

--- short pause / courte pause

746 MR. DU BROY: For example, if we were to start at noon on Sunday, we would have the Hebrew Scriptures, at 12:30 we would have the Ancient Faiths.

747 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Excuse me, could you just repeat that one, sir, 12:30?

748 MR. DU BROY: The Ancient Faiths, which is the other balanced programming proposal we have.

749 At one o'clock, Catch the Fire, which is a Canadian program; at 1:15 music that would run until 2:45; at which time we would have the 15-minute Vatican News Report, an international news program; at three o'clock the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is sung by local musician Denis Gerard; following that, at 3:15, we would have a music program that would last until 3:30; then we would have a homily on the day's liturgical reading in the Catholic tradition; at four o'clock Scripture Matters, that is a one hour program, a bible study from a Catholic perspective; at five o'clock, the Choices We Face with host Ralph Martin; at 5:30 a program called Contact, which is produced by the Sacred Heart Priests; at six o'clock, and this is again just a proposal, CJOH Weekend News; at 6:30, the Weekend Edition of Focus on the Family; at seven o'clock we would have The Rosary; at 7:30, Hour of Decision with Billy Graham; at eight o'clock, Canada's National Bible Hour -- would you like me to slow down? I know you are taking notes.

750 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No. That's fine. I can write fast.

751 MR. DU BROY: Good. At 8:30, the Lutheran Hour; at nine o'clock, Journey On, which is a program produced by the South Delta Baptist Church in British Columbia; at 9:30, Woman to Woman; and then from ten o'clock until midnight, local church services.

752 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Those would be Ottawa churches.

753 MR. DU BROY: Correct.

754 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Then we get down to describing this then. We will talk about some of this programming in a moment in some way or another.

755 Would I be wrong in saying that what we have here in a specialty format really is a spoken word station. It sounds to me like if this is typical, well over half of your programming, well over, will be spoken word.

756 MR. DU BROY: Yes. That is why we described the station in Gerry Turcotte's introduction as a religious station.

757 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would I take it that you would be agreeable to conditions of licence that would describe this? I mean, when we issue a specialty licence we like to nail it down as to what precisely the beast is so that somebody doesn't change it the next week. Then of course other applicants who perhaps weren't successful would complain and say not fair. You know, they said they would do 70-something per cent, 78 per cent spoken word, 22 per cent music and now they have reversed it and it is not fair. That is what we said we would do. We didn't get the licence. They got it and now they have stolen our plan.

758 Would you be amenable to us taking this information and crafting it into conditions of licence that would reflect precisely the breakdown of this spoken word versus music.

759 MR. DU BROY: Absolutely. We would ask for a little bit of leeway either way. Naturally, there has to be some programming latitude. But these are very close to the proportions in the programming that we fully expect to deliver.

760 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We have skilled lawyers here who I am sure can build you in enough flexibility. I don't know whether they can allow you to be contortionists but they can give you some wiggle room for sure.

761 Let's look then at some of the spoken word program. I think I have a fair notion now of the sense of the type of music you are going to be playing. I may come back to that in a bit when we talk about where it is coming from.

762 I would like to try to understand, and some of it you were clear on local church services, well that is pretty obvious, but then I hear names like Billy Graham and titles like Bible Hour and it is clear that some things are coming from Canada and some things are coming from the United States, some things are being produced locally and some things aren't.

763 I guess I would like some kind of a notion in your mind and I don't think you need fear me trying to suggest a COL on precisely how much you can have. You know the rules of 12 per cent on Canadian music and you reflect that in your application, but it is important to us so that you will know where I am coming from for a sense of control of what exactly is coming out of the speakers in people's living rooms as to know generally where this type of programming is coming from.

764 I would like I think to start with the notion of what we call brokered programming. Obviously, you are buying some because in your financial statements, which we will get to near the end, you show a revenue stream coming from the sale of programming time. Some of them are clear from the titles, but could you give me some idea of the type of brokered programming you would be airing and where you would be getting it?

765 MR. DU BROY: First, Commissioner Langford, a couple of clarifications. I think the minimum requirement for especially Cancon is 10 per cent. CHRI has promised a minimum of 12 and delivers significantly more, which we would anticipate Inspo-FM.

766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ave you not promised 12 per cent on this application as well?

767 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

768 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So I guess I just jumped right to it. Let's go for 12. Right? All right. Thanks for that clarification.

769 MR. DU BROY: The other thing, as you mentioned broker time, they would buy the air time on the station.

770 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Exactly. What I am trying to figure out is who is buying it and then we will get to how we control them.

771 MR. DU BROY: Absolutely.

772 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We have dealt with two program distributors in Canada. One is called Eaglecom out of Vancouver. The other is called C. Reimer Advertising out of Winnipeg. We have obtained quotes from them for what they would expect to pay for a station at 98.5 at 4,000-something watts. The prices they gave us were $120 net per half hour from Eaglecom and I believe it was $85 per half hour net from C. Reimer. There is a table on that provided in our application.

773 MR. DU BROY: I can read through the programs that they are offering in their catalogues.

774 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No. I think more in a general sense I would like to understand if you decide to sell a half hour for $120 or $85 what the relationship would be. Perhaps we could just pick one program and it doesn't even necessarily have to be one you are going to buy but I would like to go through the process with you if I could.

775 MR. DU BROY: All right. The first thing is to contact the distributor to get a prospectus on the content of the program. They usually send a demo or several demos so we can hear the content.

776 Already, incidentally, I have gone through a process of eliminating some of the more strident programs that might be offensive to Canadians.

777 What we have here is a list of responsible broadcasters who have a tradition of honouring their claims on the air. They don't make outlandish promises that would be contrary with the religious broadcasting policy. They are not the aggressive fund raisers that may be stereotypical of some U.S. TV evangelists.

778 So already what we have is a list of responsible people who are I think doing their job right based on their demos, based on conversations I have with other station managers, based on my contacts in the U.S. We also get Religious Broadcasting magazine, which frequently reviews these people, so we have an understanding of these titles already.

779 We would then speak to the distributor, which acts as an agency, which then speaks to the program producer and negotiates a price. In this case, $120, for example, for let's say Haven Ministries with Charles Morris. We speak to Eaglecom, we are interested in Haven Ministries: could you speak to the producer please, see what they think the value is on Inspo-FM, you have quoted us $120, let's nail that, we will sign a contract.

780 So for about a year at a time, depending on the contract, they commit to a price and then we arrange the delivery method, either through FTP downloads or in some odd cases now through CDs.

781 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. So we have Haven Ministries and it is going out. When shall we send it out? Five o'clock every evening or something? Give me a time that sounds good to you from your experience. I won't hold you to it.

782 MR. DU BROY: Nine p.m. sounds good.

783 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Nine p.m. out it goes. It comes into my living room and I become an interested listener and everything is going along tickitiboo until one day the host of Haven Ministries goes off on a frolic of his own. I don't know if you were here when we were discussing the RCMP officer with the singing career earlier this morning, but what we may have here is someone who, for a reason best known to himself, goes over the edge in the sense of Commission policy and Canadian hate laws and whatever. We will leave that to everyone's imagination, but it is not hard to imagine how someone could go over the edge or step over the line repeatedly.

784 What controls do you have? You have signed on for a year's contract. Tell me how you deal with this kind of a situation.

785 MR. DU BROY: We could make it a condition of the contract that the program continue to comply with religious broadcasting policy, so we can pull them off the air.

786 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And they will understand that.

787 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

788 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What about the actual moment it happens? You get rid of the program then and you are safe under your contract and you have to find a replacement. I understand that. Now we are dealing with 9:07 on December 9th when they step over the line. What controls do you have then?

789 MR. DU BROY: There isn't a broadcaster in Canada who is not somewhat vulnerable to one of the live hosts.

790 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, we get them all the time. We know that. But I would still like to know what, as failsafe as you can put it, what type of strategies you have discussed for dealing with this?

791 MR. DU BROY: It is mostly the lead-up to strategy because we will be getting assurances as these are responsible broadcasters. They also report to boards of directors. These are people who have a track record. We don't imagine Billy Graham making a major detour from the straight and narrow path he has followed all his life. We are as assured as we can be.

792 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What I am trying to ascertain from you is are there delays built in, the sort of thing you have with open line shows? How fast can you get to the button if in fact Mr. X on show Y steps markedly over the line? We are not talking about a disputable call here. We are talking about a clear breach.

793 MR. DU BROY: These syndicated programs don't go over the air in real time. Through an FTP download or a transfer from a CD, a technician physically has to make the transfer, so at that point if something is really out of whack, they can pull the plug on it at that point and alert the station manager.

794 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am just making sure. Are you saying that all these things are listened to before they are aired or are they just listened to as they are aired? I am not quite sure I am understanding that.

795 MR. DU BROY: During the transfer process there is spot checking.

796 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Spot checking.

797 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You could still see how something could get through, though, or is it just me? So is it basically only a half an hour later? I mean, is there anybody in the shop or is this stuff just running out of a computer? How is it going?

799 MR. DU BROY: The syndicated programming will be running off a computer hard drive, but there will be technicians and staff around.

800 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Will they be trained and informed? What happens if X on program Y steps over the line and starts to say things that perhaps would be imprudent to say? What is the process? What does the technician do? Call you at home. I am just trying to figure out what happens here.

801 MR. DU BROY: I am anticipating there will be another station manager involved in Inspo-FM, but that person would be responsible for pulling the plug at that moment.

802 What we are describing is the disaster scenario.

803 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We might as well start with the nuclear attack and then work back to sort of standard armaments

804 MR. DU BROY: It is a bit like saying, what happens if a local newscaster starts ranting in real time. Then we do what we can, we pull the plug as quickly as we can. It is a disaster scenario that is quite remote given all of the steps leading up to ensuring that the people we put on the air are responsible broadcasters.

805 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But there is somebody to pull the plug?

806 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

807 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good to know.

808 The concept of balanced programming, as it is so clear that you understand it in the discussions with Rabbi Fine and some of the comments that you made in that discussion, what kind of guarantees again can we have that that sort of balance may not be reflected in each and every half hour segment but in some sense that the overall packaging, the overall product of what comes out of the speakers in my living room should I listen to your radio station week after week and month after month will have a sense of balance, will honour the spirit of balance?

809 How do you deal with that when it comes to brokered programming either foreign or Canadian.

810 MR. DU BROY: It is clear we can't balance within every half hour, even perhaps within every two hour period, but the religious broadcasting policy makes it clear that the balance of programming has to be heard when people are listening. We recognize that so we will certainly ensure that the balance of programming is scheduled when people are listening in the course of the day and in the course of the week.

811 Our news reports, for example, right now on CHRI-FM often bring in other faith stories so during daylight hours every hour you are going to hear some balance, not every hour but our newscast is every hour. So you can imagine when balance is needed it arises.

812 On open line programs, again, other faith adherents are invited to call in. Our panel will often be made up of other faith religious leaders. So there will be balance throughout the broadcast week.

813 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The third language aspect that, oh, your panel member was here earlier and had to leave, she spoke of and it is mentioned in your application as well, give me a little more information on that if you can.

814 As I understand it, the bare bones of it are three hours per week of third language ethnic programming, one hour each of Arabic, Mandarin and Cantonese and 30 minutes in French. How are we going to assemble that? Who is going to be responsible for it? Can you give me a little more sense of that type of programming?

815 MR. DU BROY: Certainly. The Cantonese, Mandarin and Arabic programs will be produced with our in-house production facilities. For the French programming, there are enough third party facilities, in fact they may come from outside, these are program proposals that come to us from the local community. We would have our producer responsible for assembling the program, but a community producer would bring in the resources, the research, the host, if there is to be an interview, the interview guest, either authors, musicians, civic leaders. So these programs would sound --

816 I used to work at CKC, a community radio station, where there is a great deal of ethnic programming, and we would follow much of that model.

817 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is this going to be ethnic religious programming, or does this fit into the sort of 13 hours of what you have described I think as non-religious spoken word? I am a little confused on that area.

818 MR. DU BROY: The community groups that have proposed these programs are primarily in the faith community, so there would be religious content which would make each of those half hours for the purpose of the religious broadcasting policy, religious spoken word programming, but they wouldn't deal exclusively with faith issues, so in that respect they would be quite varied.

819 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have characterized 50 per cent of your programming as local. Is that music as well as spoken word or is it 50 per cent of each type? Is it 50 per cent of music and 50 per cent of spoken word or is it 50 per cent all lumped together? How did that 50 per cent breakdown work?

820 MR. DU BROY: The schedule has a scenario that I put together. It would have a little over 50 per cent local production, 22 per cent of that would be music programming and the balance would be spoken word local programming.

821 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So all the music programming would qualify in your understanding as local programming, so you should have no trouble making the 42 hours then per week to enable you to solicit and sell local advertising.

822 MR. DU BROY: That's right.

823 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: All right. I understand that now.

824 Part of that I assume would be news. You speak of three hours of news, weather and sports per week. I want to get into that type of spoken word programming, because you also speak of simulcast of the CHRI newscast, possible simulcast of CJOH news, and then this 15 minutes of Radio Vatican. I'm not quite sure where that fits in.

825 Why don't we start with just the news you are going to do yourself, then we will get to the other pieces afterwards. Can you just take me through weekly figures, daily figures, whatever you are more comfortable with of news, weather and sports?

826 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

827 The news we have now is produced in the newsroom of T. Hern Media. Tim Hern is a professor at Algonquin College and he has worked in media in Ottawa for many, many years. It is he and his staff who provides our news reports. He was also responsible for Ontario east tour and travel reports and ski reports, so he is quite involved in media and journalism here.

828 Is he doing news, weather and sports or just news?

829 MR. DU BROY: News and sports. We do the weather in house.

830 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you have your own window.

--- laughter / rire

831 MR. DU BROY: A number of them, and a skylight.

832 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

833 That is done by Tim Hern and that would account then for all of the time -- you intend then to use Tim Hern on the new channel as well at the new station.

834 MR. DU BROY: Yes, sir.

835 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Then we speak of simulcasting CHRI's newscast. How would that work?

836 MR. DU BROY: I'm not certain if we expressed it exactly that way. Tim Hern would provide the news for both stations. It would not be simulcast.

837 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay. I misunderstood it because my next question was: how do the demographics work?

838 In fact, what I should have understood was that you are going to the same source for a newscast but it won't be the same newscast.

839 MR. DU BROY: That's correct.

840 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is helpful to me. Thank you very much.

841 What about this notion of simulcasting good old Max Keeping? How would that work?

842 MR. DU BROY: I should point out by the way that we are not counting the CJOH news as part of our local programming because it was produced for another station.

843 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right. But it is television for radio.

844 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

845 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm listening to the CBC stuff now where they are talking about hear the big picture. It's cute but I'm not quite sure it actually works.

846 Again, how will that work? I'm trying to think of running the voice track, the audio, from television news. It might improve it. Who knows? Have you tried this? Have you experimented with it? What does it sound like?

847 MR. DU BROY: It has been done in the past on another station at least in the Ottawa market.

848 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sir, could you speak up a little bit. I missed that.

849 MR. DU BROY: It has been done in the distant past. I don't know if anyone here recalls that, but CJOH had simulcast. I believe it's news reports on radio. It is just at the proposal stage right now so this is not a commitment, but what it would do is allow CJOH to reach the mobile audience and it would also allow us a great deal of promotion possibilities in this alliance, so we would reach a visual audience with promotional campaigns. Max Keeping could go to places representing both Inspo-FM and CJOH, mind you we would be more of a footnote, but still we would be there.

850 It would allow us access to different resources. CJOH would provide all of the switching equipment and the signal transportation equipment to get the daily news to us.

851 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: From what I am hearing, they are very interested in this. This isn't just a kind of maybe proposal. You have actually sat down and had discussions on this?

852 MR. DU BROY: A couple of brief discussions. It really has been hinging on Inspo-FM. The original proposal was for CHRI-FM and, as you mentioned, because CHRI -- because Inspo is more of a block programming approach, it has made more sense to have it on Inspo.

853 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Why do I have a vision of Max sitting there like a downhill skier with different patches on his suit, you know, kind of beginning to advertise the different hats he wears.

854 MR. DU BROY: That's theatre of the mind. You see, radio can work this way.

855 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes. Yes. Hear the big picture.

856 Okay. That is a possibility. I mean, you are in serious negotiations on this.

857 Vatican Radio, where does that fit into the mix?

858 MR. DU BROY: It is more than religious news. It is an international news report probably on par with BBC News. It would allow a whole new perspective on international news in Ottawa. Certainly, the Catholic community would want to hear this but I think it would be of interest to all of our listeners.

859 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is that a definite then as far as you are concerned?

860 MR. DU BROY: We have their permission to run it, so it is really a matter of obtaining the licence and then deciding --

861 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We wouldn't suggest you put it on without a licence. Believe me. No.

862 MR. DU BROY: But the two hurdles are obtaining the licence and then deciding, do we really want to do this, but it is a very strong proposal.

863 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it is something you could have, you have access to it if you want it.

864 MR. DU BROY: We currently have permission.

865 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The 13 hours of non-religious spoken word per week, can you tell me what parts we have already covered and what parts we haven't? Does the Vatican News qualify as religious or is it just another news viewpoint? We are slicing it pretty thin here I think.

866 MR. DU BROY: This is good. No, it does qualify as religious. There will be religious stories. There will be other faith religious stories, but I am not considering it here as part of our balanced programming, although we will probably find with experience it would qualify.

867 But for the, excuse me, non-faith spoken word for non-religious, the CJOH News has a good deal of that. I will look at my notes to see what else qualifies there.

868 There is a great deal of programming of interest to the faith community that is not exclusively religious in content. I just have to find it now. But I think that is primarily --

869 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Primarily CJOH.

870 Why don't you just keep that in the back of your mind and if you come across it when we are talking about some other stuff you can wave your hand and put it in or you will get a chance in reply as well. You may want to mention it at that point if there is something that you can't find now.

871 I think the final one I want to move into then is this open line show and I want to get an understanding of how that works. It sounded to me like at one point in either one of the answers you gave earlier or in your opening remarks you have a fairly sound understanding of our open line policy, but I would like to ensure that is the case.

872 When do you see the open line coming on? You talk about two hours daily. Is that right or have I got that wrong?

873 MR. DU BROY: No. I believe it is weekly.

874 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, it is two hours weekly. That makes it a little bit easier, doesn't it?

875 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

876 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am certainly demonstrating that we are far from perfect up here, at least one of us is far from perfect. All right. Two hours weekly then, so let's pick a day. Give me a time for that if you could.

877 MR. DU BROY: Saturday morning from eight until nine.

878 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Wow. Is that a good time on radio, Saturday morning, eight to nine? Eight to nine, did you say?

879 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

880 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just one hour weekly.

881 MR. DU BROY: In this case, but it's one window I am giving you.

882 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One hour of open line. Wow.

883 MR. DU BROY: We would most likely do another hour eight to nine Saturday evening as well. But this again is speculative at this point, but I would imagine two hours a week of open line.

884 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Give me your understanding of the Commission's open line policy so that we can just jump that hurdle without questions if you have a grasp of it.

885 MR. DU BROY: It is essentially keep it clean I guess.

886 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is not enough.

887 MR. DU BROY: I haven't brought the regulation here today with me, but perhaps you can refresh me.

888 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is it your understanding, because it is mine, that simply saying anyone can call in isn't enough, that you have to make some sort of an effort to encourage people from all faiths to call in. Would that be a fair assessment of your understanding of the bare bones of that policy?

889 MR. DU BROY: With respect to the religious broadcasting policy, yes.

890 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The whole religious broadcasting. But open lines as well -- I don't think it is fair at the end of the day to say, well, anybody could have called, we gave the number.

891 It kind of brings us to the whole notion of balance again through yet another back door. I mean, we have seen Rabbi Fine here. I have listened to him and he is a man obviously of a great deal of religious experience and considerable broadcasting experience, seven years doing that other show.

892 You have agreed that some effort has to be made on your open line show to reach out to other communities. Of course the obvious question is what are you going to put in place to do that other than an assurance? You must have given this some thought so what sort of strategies have you got to ensure that other religious or faith groups, outside of Christian religion or Christian -- "Christian" is not really a religion, is it. It's a kind of... umbrella -- but other than Christians, not only know they are welcome, but that you actually reach out to them, that you make some effort.

893 What sort of strategy have you got in that area?

894 MR. DuBROY: Clearly, access is not enough; we would go beyond that. Certainly, the open-line hosts would encourage callers from any background, because they want to have a rich discussion on the air. So having a monolithic kind of caller is not in anybody's interest.

895 So they would encourage "other faith" participation. We would most likely have other faith participation on the panel so, already, if you have a Muslim on the panel or a Hindu on the panel, there will be interest in those communities and there will be participation that way.

896 We reach people in other ways, too. We reach people through the internet with our website, we reach people through our monthly newsletter, and these are other vehicles we can use to remind people that their call is welcome, no matter what their background.

897 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And what about the notion of committees of some sort, formalized committees of different denominations, representative of different denominations. Have you given any thought to a programming committee of that sort or something tht would meet once a month or some sort of formal structure where, even before Saturday at 8:00 comes, and the host says, "Hey, everybody's welcome.", the word is out that Saturday at 8:00 is genuinely an open time?

898 MR. TURCOTTE: I think, clearly, the answer is no, we haven't thought through that far on that. However, the Board structure is set up to make sure that we have a broad range of people in the community and we actively pursue that every year at our AGM. You can't cover all bets and this is not a huge station. It has got 10 people there. We have got a board, a small board, but there is no question that in practice we reach out as actively as we can.

899 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, maybe by the time we get around to reply you will have had some time over coffee to give that some thought as well, because it is pretty clear from the policies that there is an expectation there. Nobody is tying down a broadcaster to a certain or a specific or a one-size-fits all formula for doing this, but there certainly is an expectation that broadcasters will do more to ensure balance than just say, "Well, gosh, didn't they know they could have called in Saturday at 8:00 o'clock, and the host did mention it".

900 Because let's face it, if you have got -- I mean, the equation is pretty easy to follow through. If you are playing Christian, Christian, Christian overall, the only exception being Hebrew Scriptures and Ancient Faiths, it just may be that by the time Saturday at 8:00 o'clock comes around, people who aren't Christians have just stopped listening, even though they may be looking for the same sort of help in their life, the same sort of message that you are trying to give your listeners. They don't think they will find it there.

901 So typically, I would have thought there would be some way of reaching to the community and, of course, I am not trying to rewrite your application for you, but it would be interesting to hear you on that perhaps later, if you give it some thought.

902 MR. DU BROY: Mr. Commissioner, though, I might just mention CHRI-FM has had interesting experiences in that respect because we have a limited amount of religious spoken word programming which we do balance. It is on file there was a complaint lodged, but it was found groundless because we indeed do balance our limited spoken word programming that has religious content. And because of this little program called "Their Days" that we run on weekends, we discovered that we were in a Muslim brochure because we were featuring Ramhadan that month. So the word is getting out.

903 I went to a wedding and at my table there was a Jewish couple and a B'Hai couple and they both told me they listened to CHRI-FM because that is the only wholesome station they have to listen to. So the word is getting out.

904 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And I guess what I am saying to you is, maybe you could put your mind to how to get the word out a little faster, sort of thing, but maybe in a little more organized fashion, something like that.

905 Finally, on balanced programming, we did talk a bit with Rabbi Fine about his particular Hebrew Scripture show, but he wasn't sure how the Ancient Faiths were going to work. So maybe you can tell us a little more about the 15 minutes per day of Ancient Faiths programming?

906 MR. DU BROY: Certainly.

907 I think everyone is interested in some timeless questions; what is pleasing to your God; tell me about your sacred writings; what is duty in your religion; what role do angels play?

908 Many, many questions of that sort, and each faith has a different take on it. So in the course of 15 minutes our station producer would interview a religious leader; Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, and get into the depths of those questions.

909 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it is an interview show is what it is. You are going to play it twice a day. Am I right in thinking that you will be going five of these a week, different ones every week?

910 MR. DU BROY: That is correct.

911 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Fifty-two (52) weeks a year?

912 MR. DU BROY: Yes. Now, it is a great production burden. As you imagine, it is labour intensive.

913 Again, like with the Hebrew Scriptures, we would hope to begin production upon learning whether or not we have received a licence, which would allow us several months of programming and inventory. Again, after a year or so we could begin recycling some of these programs because they are timeless questions.

914 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You would begin to recycle some of them.

915 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

916 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, that brings us to an interesting question, though, because obviously, balance being an important issue, we would like to kind of formalize this with a number and, of course, the number that comes to mind is 10 and a half hours per week because that is what you are doing. But at the same time, we are not trying to set people up to fail.

917 If you are telling me that eventually you may be repeating some of these shows because of the timeless nature, would 10 and a half hours per week be too much? Should we be thinking -- because I think we would be more comfortable seeing this in the nature of a condition of licence, something that you simply cannot walk away from without coming back to us and saying for whatever reason, "We can't manage that".

918 I don't know whether you want to answer that question now or whether you want to give it a little thought and come back to us at the reply stage, but I think we would like to see the number of balance programming hours formalized in a condition of licence. We can do it now or we can do it later, but we really do have to have that. That is a very, very important aspect of the Commission's religious broadcasting policy and we have to have something formal there.

919 I am not trying to suggest an hour to you, but I do want you to give us something that is workable and something that you can achieve, rather than something you will simply stumble on and end up with problems on it. So I don't know whether you want to answer that now or whether you want to wait until the reply stage. I leave that with you.

920 MR. DU BROY: I believe we will confer on that and give an answer at the reply stage. But we can assure you of our good faith effort to comply with the policy and we will give you a very good number.

921 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We don't have anyone in front of us who is trying to wiggle out of things. I have never found that yet, but we do have people who sometimes are overly optimistic. It is probably better. You know, we don't want people to be overly pessimistic and then so destroy their application that they weaken it. But at the same time, it seems pointless to put someone's feet to the fire and then after a year say, "We just simply can't do this. It can't be done".

922 So we will leave that to the reply stage and you can come up with a number on that one.

923 Staff or Legal may have some other suggestions on how that can be handled and they will have a turn after we are finished with you.

924 I am almost done now, so it is almost over. I will feel like St. Augustine by the time this is finished, I think -- more like St. Sebastian, perhaps.

925 All right. Business plans. Very quickly, your projected revenues are $219,000 in Year 1, climbing to $548,000 in Year 7. What I am trying to figure out -- of the three numbers let's just -- the three revenue sources, looking at Year 1. I have rounded them, if you don't mind. $32,000 in donations, $62,000 in local ads and $124,000 in brokered programs, what we are referring to as "time sales", I suppose.

926 Can you give me an idea of which one of those or which ones of those you are almost certain are accurate? Some of them must be hopeful projections, perhaps considered projections, all of them, but which -- are there any of them that you can look at and say; for example, brokered programming, we know how much time we have. We know the rate varies from 85 to 120. You can take that one to the bank, kind of thing, and then we can talk about the ones that are perhaps a little less certain.

927 MR. DU BROY: Certainly. We were very conservative in the estimate of revenue from brokered programming, so the number that is here is a minimum. The programs that we have included from the catalogues of C. Reimer and Eagle-Com are -- they represent maybe 10 per cent of the available programs. Program producers have been lining up to come into the Ottawa market for a long time but they haven't had a vehicle. So in terms of those brokered programs these are our minimum.

928 In terms of local ads, again, it is very modest because of our experience with CHRI-FM. It would be very easy to sell a package on both stations. One of the reasons we come out of the gate very modestly with Inspo-FM on that side of things is because we would like to have a limited number of avails that were internally --

929 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Sorry, you are just going to have to speak up a little. I really am not 23 years old.

930 MR. DU BROY: I apologize.

931 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I guess the first thing to go is the hearing, or maybe it is the mind. But I just am not hearing you clearly.

932 MR. DU BROY: So what we have deliberately done is limited the number of available spots, because of the great amount of spoken word content on the station. We don't want to overwhelm the listener. So the projection for ad revenue is, again, very modest.

933 The unknown one is donations. Inspo-FM will have programs that will appeal directly to our listeners for donations. Programs like 100 Huntley Street are supported by the audience. As a result, the station itself may not be a recipient of a large revenue stream through donations. So we were again fairly modest there.

934 On the other hand, the station will appeal to an older demographic that has a fair discretionary income and it is a very good long-term prospect for donations because when older people believe in something they do back it. What we found with CHRI-FM is that older people have not been backing it very enthusiastically because it doesn't appear to appeal to their ears, but this station will.

935 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me paint a scenario for you. I know the donations are the smallest part of your revenues, so perhaps it is even possible, as you say, that if nothing came in you could still stay afloat. But you are rather going to the same well here with a number of hats on.

936 I mean, it seems to me if I, instead of looking and calling these people "demographics", if I call them "families" instead -- I know that is pretty revolutionary, but let us assume there is a family that strangely enough is made up of different demographics, Gramps, Mum, Pop and the kids. So at this point, I suppose, the kids are listening to CHRI and saying, "You know, Mum, Pop and Gramps, pretty good station. We like it", and they like their kids liking it, because they are not listening to Eminem somewhere else, so they are sending you money.

937 Well, along comes Inspo -- I hope you get a better name for that, actually. It sounds like a hockey player or something, Inspo, Inspo crossing the blue line. Anyway, I leave that with you -- along comes Inspo and all of a sudden you have got the kids tuned into your company of families and Mum and Dad and Gramps, but they are still only going to be cutting the one cheque. Might cut two, but people have limited resources. Then along comes 100 Huntley and they like what he is saying. They may end up sending him the cheque and thinking, "Well, it is all to a good cause".

938 So I just wonder how deep are the pockets of this family of demographically identifiable people and whether you may be just on the donation front putting yourself at risk. At least, with what you have got now with little spoken word, lots of music, the families are sending you money, but now you are going to come at them from different directions. What is the risk on that? Do you have any -- you must deal with other -- you have given us lists of cities that have four stations and five stations. So what happens typically?

939 Assuage my worries here that you are not going to make anywhere near this $62,000 because everybody is going to be claiming the same limited pool of resources.

940 MR. TURCOTTE: Well, maybe I can answer as a grandfather who is actually supporting both applications. So I am part of the demographic that sees value in both for many of the reasons you have mentioned. There are a number of us in this community. I am not the only one.

941 But let me also reflect on some of the more senior people that I talk to who I asked the question, "Are you supporting CHRI", and they say, "I don't like the music", to which I respond, "What has that got to do with it"? But that is another question for another time.

942 The issue is that there are people of my age out there who do not like the music and will not listen and will not support. I support both.

943 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And you think there are enough of the first type that that will bring in a new revenue stream almost guaranteed?

944 MR. TURCOTTE: No, that may or may not be true. I think there is more of the second type that now come on stream; in other words, those that are holding back because they don't like the music who will now contribute.

945 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, I thought that was the first type. But anyway, now I am glad that you defined it.

946 That's all right, that's all right.

947 Yes?

948 MS LAHAISE: Sorry, if I can add, again? I am not quite at Gerry's demographic but I am certainly not a CHRI-age group.

949 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If you are, you have got a better hairdresser.

--- Laughter / Rires

950 MS LAHAISE: Well, I was going to say that anyway but -- really, I guess, in my age group and a lot of people that I know, a number of people were quite excited when CHRI was launched. I think it was an alternative and I think I really -- I applaud the Canadian government and Canadians for offering alternatives and alternative voices. I think that is one thing that we do really well.

951 What has happened with a number of those initial supporters is they become frustrated and disgruntled and so, as you are seeing in the application, there are some very unhappy campers who had hoped it would be something and it's not. So I think what we found -- and as board members, you know, we grapple with this every month and we look at it -- there is a significant number of people that would, and have spoken up, that they will not currently support CHRI. So I think there is a huge opportunity there.

952 But I think you are asking some good questions. We have a real marketing and promotion and awareness job to do.

953 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Then the same take in the advertising figure. I assume you are not getting huge national advertisers, though I may be wrong about that.

954 So what is the appetite in local businesses for this type of radio versus standard commercial, and are you really just going to be going back to the same limited people and asking for more?

955 MR. DU BROY: If we can demonstrate that we have doubled the number of people listening, then we are opening a whole new avenue up to advertisers. We do have some national advertisers and some regional advertisers, a whole lot of local affinity advertisers, and if we can tell them, "Well, we are not just reaching women of 18 to 44, but with this other station we are reaching people 45 years of age plus", then Blessings storehouse -- rather, Salem Storehouse, Blessings Christian Marketplace, will say "Oh, we can -- we are not just selling Christian Rock CDs now. We can tell people about these very serious books on the second station and attract a whole new age group", and they will double their advertising budgets because they know they want to reach those people.

956 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: From Nikes to Birkenstocks.

957 Okay. I think that about sums it up. I was going to ask you something about your survey which I found a bit difficult to weigh, and maybe I will, having introduced it, but I am just not quite sure how much stock to put in a survey of 176 people that are in a sense handpicked.

958 I suppose the question I am going to ask you is do you have a sense that they are just out there as an unserved radio audience that just simply aren't listening to the radio or perhaps are listening to CBC because at least it is safe but aren't listening to the radio they want? They are not finding it anywhere? Is that really what this survey comes down to? Because I have to tell you as a survey, and I think you would have to agree with this, 176 people picked off of a kind of pre-conditioned list, if I can put it that way, is not the most objective, empirical data one is going to find. It is the kind of thing that I can just -- I can remember some of my old professors' eyes if I had rolled that into an essay more years ago than I want to remember. It might have been held against me.

959 So I guess I am trying to find out from you in a sense, without doing every question in this survey, but what it is that you are trying to tell us with this survey, going beyond the fact that you found 176 people, most of whom were fairly sympathetic.

960 MR. DU BROY: I think Gerry has something to say about this.

961 MR. TURCOTTE: First of all, I am not a fan of surveys, but that is beside the point. They are data which allows you to make business decisions. So what e-qual-IT was asked to do was go out in this pond and figure out whether we were getting a positive response.

962 I do an awful lot of informal things. I ask people questions, just as you have been doing all day. I asked them were they listen to CHRI, et cetera, et cetera, and that is not scientific either. That's got a different number than 176.

963 But you asked whether I had any confidence and the answer is, yes, I have got a confidence that there is a class of people out there that are unserved right now. I believe that to my very core. That's why I am backing this application.

964 MR. DU BROY: If I could, Mr. Commissioner, there were a couple of other things.

965 The survey really at its core, I think, was intended to determine whether there would be a lot of defections from the existing CHRI-FM audience to Inspo-FM, to the detriment of both. What we found, surprisingly, was people who answered the phone in the middle of the day tend to be older women. Perhaps that is not a surprise. It wasn't a surprise to the surveyors but -- yes, well, a lot of retired women.

966 The discovery was that a lot of the people answering the phone don't listen to CHRI at all, which was surprising given that it was from our contact database and it was primarily churchgoers, we thought, but then it also turned out a large chunk of the population we were surveying, perhaps 20 per cent, weren't churchgoers or were from other faiths. Totally surprising to us.

967 But anyway, the upshot was the number of defections would not be great among our target group of 18 to 44 year-old people, 45 plus. Yes, a lot of people would prefer tuning in the other station more. Some of them had sampled CHRI-FM and really don't listen to it very much now. That is essentially the conclusion there.

968 Your question about whether there was an unserved population is a valid one. Eight years ago we did a survey of participants in the "March for Jesus" and this was a --

969 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Participants in what, sorry?

970 MR. DU BROY: There was a movement called March for Jesus.

971 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes.

972 MR. DU BROY: In Ottawa, I guess we had it four years in a row, three or four years in a row.

973 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes.

974 MR. DU BROY: The reason we surveyed people there was these are people who are publicly proclaiming their faith. So there was a certain fervour in the faith, and it was huge numbers of people. So our sample -- that year we did it there was 17,000 people who did a walk around the City of Ottawa. It was a wonderful procession.

975 So we had a team of about 20 people go out there and randomly survey a large number of these people. These were not leading questions, but what we did discover was they listened to radio at far lower frequency and in far lower hours tuned than the general Canadian population. So the implication was they are not being served. That was a tremendous impetus for CHRI-FM. We thought we could move right in there and meet this need. But it turned out a lot of these people we asked them, "What music do you listen to? What cassette do you have in your car right now"? And it was from Amy Grant to Vineyard Worship to George Beverly Shay. So their concept of Christian music -- and Petra and Striper, at the time, the heavy metal group.

976 So we had a tremendous range to cope with. These are all people marching together proclaiming their faith together, one faith, and yet their musical interest range was huge. So we kind of naively thought CHRI would meet all their needs and it turned out, no, the older demographic was after something different.

977 The people who winter in Florida come back and say, "CHRI doesn't sound like the Christian station I listened to in St. Petersburg". Well, there are nine Christian stations in St. Petersburg, so there is something for every shade of gray in musical or programming tastes.

--- Laughter / Rires

978 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's an interesting --

979 MR. DU BROY: Sorry.

980 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You meant of musical tastes.

981 MR. DU BROY: I have forgotten the colour of my own hair.

982 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am at the stage where I have almost forgotten having hair.

983 Thank you. Those are my questions. Now, there may be others who have questions and then, Madam Chair, we will give you your chance to give you your last.

984 She dispenses with these indulgences. So if you are nice to her she will give you a chance to sum up with enthusiasm. Thank you very much.

985 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford -- Pennefather, excuse me.

986 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, Madam Chairman.

987 Actually, I think you probably answered my question in your last comments on music. I know you discussed with Commissioner Langford the numbers and so on, but it is Category 35, I believe, is 80 per cent for this proposal, and that category you described as "worship music".

988 So basically, what I was interested in was your point just a little moment ago, that what has become the music for Christian service, Christian music, is actually, if we put ourselves on the list of formats in our categories, is actually the full range, could be the full range of format. Am I correct in that?

989 MR. DU BROY: If you looked at the mainstream music and the music equivalent, there is Christian Adult Contemporary, Christian CHR, Christian Rock and so on. Generally, what we would call "Easy Listening" in radio formats in mainstream radio, the Christian industry would call "Inspirational", and there is also something called "Praise and Worship" which might be quieter still.

990 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So when you are talking about your Category 35 for this proposal, it is more on the Hymns/Gospel side of that list as opposed to Contemporary Christian music, which is the full range of the Category 2s and other Category 3s -- categories?

991 MR. DU BROY: In the equivalent styles, yes.

992 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes. Thank you.

993 MR. DU BROY: You are welcome.

994 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.

995 MR. WILSON: Thank you, Madam Chair.

996 I just had a couple of questions, just to follow up on your discussion with Commissioner Langford with respect to this issue of spoken word religious programming versus religious music and so forth.

997 In your application at 7.7 "Station Format" you had indicated or you ticked the box with respect to indicating that you would be broadcasting -- a minimum of 80 per cent of the music broadcast each week would be drawn from Sub-category 35 "Non-Classical Religious". Following on your discussion with Commissioner Langford, it would appear that you will also be broadcasting more than 50 per cent, or more than 50 per cent of your broadcast week is going to be devoted to spoken word programming.

998 So my question then would be what comment if any would you have on the possibility of the Commission also imposing a condition of licence that more than 50 per cent of your broadcast week be devoted to spoken word?

999 MR. DU BROY: That would be acceptable. Certainly, the intent for the station is to be predominantly spoken word. So that would be an acceptable provision.

1000 MR. WILSON: And I just have one final question. Given sort of the amount of -- given the religious spoken word programming involved here, broadcasters that do provide religious spoken word programming are required to hear -- and I think you have discussed the Religious Broadcasting Policy. The Guidelines on Ethics in Religious Programming is set out in section 4 of the Religious Broadcasting Policy, and if licenced do you have any comment on the possibility the Commission would then require you to operate under a condition of licence to adhere to that policy?

1001 MR. DU BROY: No, we would be delighted to operate within the policy.

1002 MR. WILSON: Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

1003 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have only one question.

1004 You are familiar with the Commission's open-line policy?

1005 MR. DU BROY: I am somewhat. I don't have it in front of me.

1006 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are familiar?

1007 MR. DU BROY: Yes.

1008 THE CHAIRPERSON: It, of course, speaks of abusive or negative comments or unbalanced comments. How do you see that and the religious policy requirements for balance cross each other? What is the potential there for a problem?

1009 MR. DU BROY: I see --

1010 THE CHAIRPERSON: One of the things that is possible, of course, is that people who are very ardent about their faith -- yes? Now, I see you agreeing. So what do you see, the problem, the cross between the two?

1011 MR. DU BROY: Well, Madam Chair, I see more opportunities than problems.

1012 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes when people see the problems they know how to avoid them.

1013 MR. DU BROY: Yes. Well, I see it as an opportunity for rich discussion. On our board we have quite a variety of theologies represented and within CHRI-FM as well, so it leads to some interesting and very healthy debates.

1014 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you know that it has sometimes led to enthusiasm about one's faith to the exclusion of the value of others. So you understand that there is possibly an offering, an opportunity for balance? You can then slip into an opportunity for breaching the open-line program policy. You understand where I am coming from. So that is something that has happened as well, when people are enthusiastic about their faith they can, in a manner that they think is in good faith, exclude or devalue the other.

1015 So you are aware of the two policies and the possibility that they could have a connection that is nefarious; not good?

1016 MR. DU BROY: Well, Madam Chair, we would always make an effort to respect the dignity of every caller and panel member. The participants in, at least, the station end of the open-line program would have to immerse themselves in the open-line policy and the Religious Broadcasting Policy to apply those rules. We would also have very careful call screening to ensure that people who are strident and perhaps a little unbalanced not get airtime because that is not the purpose of the program.

1017 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because you may well understand how it works, but someone may be overly enthusiastic to the exclusion of or possibly the abuse or devaluation of somebody else's faith.

1018 So you will be in control of open line programming sufficiently to guard against that crossing of the two policies with the, perhaps in your view, unintended effect of allowing balance but somehow harvesting more than you wanted?

1019 MR. DU BROY: Absolutely.

1020 THE CHAIRPERSON: You now have the opportunity, of course, to take your three minutes to convince us that approving your application in the face of competition is the best thing to do for us.

1021 MR. TURCOTTE: Well, we have sat for quite a while so I am not going to necessarily take three minutes. But I just want to say I think we have proven --

1022 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean you didn't enjoy this?

1023 MR. TURCOTTE: Actually, it was very instructive. It is the first time I personally have been through this particular process. So it has been interesting.

1024 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't want you to not have enjoyed a little bit of it. Go ahead.

1025 MR. TURCOTTE: It is the mind can only take as much as the seat can withstand, as you know.

1026 I think that CHRI has proven it is a vital part of this community. We have got the team in place. We have a growing infrastructure reaching out to the other parts of the community that would like to participate. Fay Chao was here to represent that, the Rabbi was here to represent that.

1027 We have proven our capability of running a viable shop, of reaching out supporting others, reaching the community, reaching other radio stations and, quite frankly, with all the passion I could put on, I humbly suggest that this is worthwhile licencing and I thank the council for the time that you have given us.

1028 God bless you.

1029 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, and we will now take a 15-minute break and pursue -- because of some scheduling difficulties, we will definitely not adjourn until we have heard both Radio Ville-Marie and Radio Rideau, and to begin tomorrow morning with the next applicant as on the agenda. So we may be a little later than I had indicated this morning to try to accommodate.

1030 We will be back in 15 minutes, which will be 3:50.

1031 Nous reviendrons à 15 h 50.

--- Upon recessing at 1535 / Suspension à 1535

--- Reprise à 1555 / Upon resuming at 1555

1032 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

1033 Madame la conseillère juridique.

1034 M^e DIONNE: Le requérant Radio Rideau avait été invité par le Conseil à comparaître. Cependant, il nous a tout juste informé qu'il désirait ne plus comparaître. Donc, sa demande sera considérée telle quelle, versée au dossier public.

1035 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît

1036 LE SECRÉTAIRE: Merci, madame la présidente.

1037 Le quatrième article à l'ordre du jour est une demande présentée par Radio Ville-Marie en vue de modifier la licence de l'entreprise de programmation de Radio CIRA-FM à Montréal.

1038 La titulaire propose d'ajouter un émetteur FM à Gatineau afin d'offrir le service de programmation de CIRA-FM à Montréal, une station à caractère religieux à la population de la Ville de Gatineau et d'Ottawa. L'émetteur serait exploité à la fréquence 96,5 mégahertz au Canal 243-A avec une puissance apparente rayonnée de 1 000 watts.

1039 Vous disposez de 20 minutes pour faire votre présentation.

1040 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to our hearing and proceed when you're ready. Non; en français.

1041 Je vous souhaite la bienvenue et vous y allez quand vous êtes prêts.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

1042 MME GARNEAU: Madame la présidente Andrée Wylie, mesdames, messieurs les Conseillers de ce Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes. Bon après-midi ou bonne fin d'après-midi.

1043 Je suis Lise Garneau, présidente de Radio Ville-Marie et je suis fière de vous présenter mes collègues. Jean-Guy Roy, directeur général de Radio Ville-Marie; Jacques Faucher, président de la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais et Robert Gagnon ainsi que René Laprise et Jean Fahmi derrière moi qui sont respectivement vice-présidents de la Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.

1044 C'est avec plaisir que nous présentons publiquement notre demande pour obtenir une licence afin d'établir en Outaouais une antenne ré-émettrice de Radio Ville-Marie.

1045 Le CRTC a en main notre Mémoire Argumentaire complet déposé au mois de juillet 2003 avec l'étude technique acceptée par Industries Canada. Notre demande porte le numéro 2003-0829-8 Gatineau, Québec. Voyons d'abord notre jeune passé, riche et prometteur.

1046 Il n'est pas présomptueux d'affirmer ici que le CRTC connaît bien Radio Ville-Marie, son énoncé de mission, son développement d'étape en étape jusqu'à ce jour. Pour le bénéfice des nouveaux conseillers et de notre auditoire aujourd'hui, permettez-moi de citer ici un extrait de la décision du CRTC rendue en 1994, lors de l'attribution de la licence de CIRA-FM Radio Ville-Marie Montréal. Je cite :

« Le Conseil considère que la demande de Radio Ville-Marie respecte tous les éléments de la nouvelle politique et dépasse même certaines de ses attentes, témoignant d'une compréhension profonde des objectifs que visait le Conseil lors de l'élaboration de sa politique. »

1047 À deux reprises le CRTC a renouvelé la licence de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal. En 1996 et en 2001, et ce, pour sept ans.

1048 Au cours de cette période, le CRTC a accordé une licence au Groupe Radio Ville-Marie Sherbrooke qui est en onde depuis l'année 1996. Ce premier élargissement a permis de rejoindre la région de l'Estrie. Dans les prochains mois, une antenne de Radio Ville-Marie établie à Trois-Rivières, avec l'autorisation du CRTC, sera en onde pour desservir la région de la Mauricie.

1049 Enfin, une autre antenne est en préparation à Victoriaville pour rejoindre la population du centre du Québec.

1050 Dans chacune des régions mentionnées, une part de programmation locale a été réalisée pour s'ajouter à la grille générale des émissions.

1051 Le CRTC a reconnu au cours de ces étapes de croissance la qualité de la programmation de Radio Ville-Marie. Il s'agit d'une programmation originale vraiment distincte dans l'univers des ondes radiophoniques en langue française.

1052 Cette radio spécialisée est unique en son genre à la grandeur de notre pays. Oui, il s'agit d'une radio religieuse oecuménique d'inspiration chrétienne ouverte aux autres religions et aux grands courants mondiaux de spiritualité.

1053 C'est une programmation qui donne sens à la vie. Il suffit de consulter la grille horaire de la programmation pour reconnaître comment cette radio donne sens à la vie.

1054 J'évoque ici les cinq volets de cette programmation originale :

1055 1 - le volet information offrant des actualités régionales, nationales et internationales avec reportages et éditoriaux.

1056 2 - le volet culture musicale offrant de la musique classique et sacrée, de la musique spécialisée et de la chanson francophone.

1057 3 - le volet culture religieuse et sociale traitant des arts, de la Bible, de l'économie, de l'environnement, de l'histoire, de la justice sociale, de la littérature, de la santé, de la spiritualité.

1058 4 - le volet méditation centrée sur la réflexion, la prière, les célébrations religieuses en lien avec les grands sanctuaires et, enfin;

1059 5 - le volet services communautaires développant interviews, témoignages et tribunes téléphoniques.

1060 On le constate, Radio Ville-Marie constitue une radio ouverte et créative qui porte un regard pluriel sur l'actualité dans un dialogue franc et ouvert. Elle éveille aux valeurs humaines et spirituelles. Plusieurs la considère comme la leader des valeurs, la radio des sans-voix, de la justice sociale et de l'étique.

1061 Voilà des perspectives nouvelles dans l'écoute de la radio. Voilà un contenu unique et captivant. Ajoutons que cette programmation spécialisée est désormais diffusée dans un bassin de près de cinq millions de population.

1062 De plus, son site web est un carrefour riche en information. Il permet la diffusion de sa programmation à travers le monde. Ce rayonnement contribue à faire connaître le visage du Canada à la grandeur de la planète.

1063 Radio Ville-Marie a vraiment développé un créneau spécialisé, unique en son genre, sans véritable concurrent dans l'univers radiophonique. Les stations de radio publique ou commerciale dans notre société semblent hésiter à aborder ce vaste champ de l'expérience religieuse et spirituelle. Nous, nous sommes fiers de répéter la mission qui nous inspire au coeur de notre dixième anniversaire : donner un sens à la vie.

1064 Nous offrons à l'auditoire une radio qui a de l'âme et je tiens à le dire, c'est une âme généreuse et bénévole.

1065 Quand le CRTC octroyait sa licence à Radio Ville-Marie en 1994, il faisait peut-être un pari. Disons-le autrement, il nous laissait tenter une expérience pour prendre le pouls de l'auditoire francophone au coeur de la région de Montréal.

1066 Était-il pensable qu'une radio d'inspiration religieuse trouve preneur au sein d'une société qu'on affirme largement sécularisée. Une fois cette question posée, permettez-moi sans fausse modestie de faire état de la réponse de l'auditoire car l'auditoire est au rendez-vous à Radio Ville-Marie. Et Radio Ville-Marie a trouvé preneur, à commencer par le vaste bassin de la région de Montréal.

1067 Un sondage CROP rendu public en 2003 fait état de 257,500 auditeurs par semaine. Sans vous assaillir de chiffres détaillés, 60 pour cent de son auditoire se situe entre 18 et 54 ans et 40 pour cent à 55 ans et plus. Le mémoire déposé au CRTC contient les détails de ce sondage indépendant et fort révélateur.

1068 Nous osons affirmer que Radio Ville-Marie, d'étape en étape, a vraiment été « plébiscitée » par son auditoire, à la maison ou en voiture. La qualité du signal sonore a aussi bénéficié d'améliorations périodiques, selon les progrès de la technologie.

1069 L'auditoire sait y reconnaître un atout pour l'écoute de la musique. Fallait-il se surprendre que des appels nous arrivent de diverses régions pour diffuser plus largement la programmation de Radio Ville-Marie? Eh bien! non.

1070 Les expériences dans la région de l'Estrie ont vite porté fruit. Des groupes locaux à Trois-Rivières et Victoriaville ont acheminé des demandes authentifiées par la voie populaire.

1071 Ici, dans la région de l'Outaouais, un groupe de formait en janvier 2000 pour susciter une démarche similaire. Ce groupe constitué juridiquement en coopérative porte le nom de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais. Dès le départ, il se faisait l'écho de la population francophone des deux côtés de la Rivières des Outaouais.

1072 Son Conseil d'administration se compose à parts égales de membres élus, résidant à Gatineau et à Ottawa.

1073 Beaucoup de gens de l'Outaouais ont découvert Radio Ville-Marie en voiture lors de voyages les menant à ou de Montréal. D'autres gens captent son signal à la maison par le site web.

1074 Le groupe initial a recruté d'étape en étape un appui de plus de 550 sociétaires qui ont payé une part sociale de 10,00 $. Ses membres se sont réunis en assemblée générale à cinq reprises au fil des ans pour confirmer le mandat donné au Conseil d'administration, ce qui a mené au dépôt du mémoire argumentaire déposé au CRTC en juillet 2003 et à l'audience d'aujourd'hui.

1075 Dans ce mémoire, nous faisons état de l'auditoire potentiel d'une antenne située à Gatineau. Une analyse démographique sommaire révèle que plus de 300 000 personnes de langue française habitent la région métropolitaine de Gatineau et Ottawa. Ce vaste bassin pourrait être rejoint par le signal demandé à la fréquence FM 96,5.

1076 Cette population est de tradition catholique et marque toujours de diverses façons son adhésion aux valeurs fondamentales et chrétiennes. Un sondage mené dans le réseau des paroisses catholiques dans les deux diocèses de Gatineau-Hull et Ottawa a permis de vérifier très tôt l'intérêt des gens de la région pour une radio spécialisée à couleur religieuse et spirituelle.

1077 Au printemps 2003, plus de 5 000 signatures ont été recueillies dans ces paroisses, invitant le CRTC à accorder une licence pour établir dans la région de l'Outaouais une antenne ré-émettrice de Radio Ville-Marie. On trouve ces signatures d'appui en annexe à notre mémoire argumentaire.

1078 De nombreux appuis oecuméniques se sont ajoutés de la part de l'évêque anglican d'Ottawa, du Conseil des chrétiens de la région de la Capitale, de la paroisse Saint-Marc de l'Église Unie du Canada à Ottawa.

1079 Ajoutons ici la voie fraternelle et précieuse du groupe anglophone Christian Hit Radio à Ottawa déjà en onde dans la région depuis 1997.

1080 La région de l'outaouais constitue un carrefour unique au pays au plan linguistique et culturel comme au plan religieux. Le développement du Canada depuis les années de la Confédération a marqué l'évolution de la population sur les deux rives de la Rivière des Outaouais.

1081 Nous vivons ici dans une zone d'interaction culturelle intense grâce à un niveau élevé de scolarisation chez l'ensemble de la population. Ajoutons qu'une importante partie de la population de langue anglaise maîtrise assez bien le français pour découvrir et écouter une radio francophone spécialisée comme Radio Ville-Marie.

1082 Une production régionale articulée et cet élément est extrêmement important pour Radio Ville-Marie. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais s'engage de plus à développer une part de programmation locale. Elle bénéficie d'un partenariat privilégié avec l'Université Saint-Paul d'Ottawa. Cette institution offre un programme d'études en communications et ses professeurs dirigent des stagiaires et ont sur place des studios d'enregistrement radiophonique.

1083 Notre mémoire indique que nous visons à produire au départ deux heures de programmation locale insérées dans la grille horaire de Radio Ville-Marie.

1084 Rappelons brièvement les ressources intellectuelles du milieu qui favoriseront la création d'émission. L'Université d'Ottawa, l'Université Carleton, l'Université Saint-Paul d'Ottawa, l'Université du Québec en Outaouais, le Collège universitaire dominicain.

1085 Ajoutons à cette liste le Cégep de l'Outaouais à Gatineau, la Cité collégiale à Ottawa, le Collège Algonquin à Ottawa sans oublier les ressources de deux diocèses catholiques à Gatineau et à Ottawa.

1086 Au coeur de la Capitale du pays, il faut aussi mentionner l'ensemble des députés et sénateurs, les dirigeants de la Fonction publique fédérale, le personnel diplomatique en lien avec tous les pays du monde, les studios de Radio-Canada et de nombreuses stations privées de radio et de télévision.

1087 Dans notre milieu, tous les sujets d'actualité trouvent des forums pour permettre des débats publics en lien avec l'évolution de la société canadienne, sans oublier les débats de politique provinciale et municipale.

1088 Au nombre des ressources religieuses dans le milieu, il faut mentionner le Conseil des chrétiens de la Région de la Capitale, le Conseil inter-religieux de la Région de la Capitale et des groupes de dialogue chrétiens juifs et des groupes de dialogue chrétiens musulmans.

1089 La population de la région appuie le projet. Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais se fait aujourd'hui le porte-parole de très nombreuses personnes qui désirent recevoir sur place une radio spécialisée, une véritable alternative à l'ensemble des émissions offertes sur le marché régional, une radio différente, à saveur religieuse et spirituelle.

1090 La population de l'Outaouais désire bénéficier d'un choix qui n'est pas encore disponible dans notre région. Elle veut pouvoir écouter à la maison ou en voiture une radio qui ne ressemble à aucune autre, une radio qui a désormais ses lettres de noblesse dans la région de Montréal, une radio qui donne sens et un sens à la vie.

1091 Sans sourciller, nous osons évoquer ici un ancien dicton en latin que nous comprenons tous et toutes, « Vox populi Vox Dei». Des porte-paroles de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais se font devant le CRTC la voie de la population régionale aujourd'hui.

1092 D'ailleurs, sur le site web du CRTC, nous sommes fiers de compter 413 interventions d'organismes, d'individus, d'institutions totalisant des milliers de personnes qui ont exprimé leur appui à notre demande entre le 2 et le 27 septembre dernier. Ces messages souvent élaborés constituent un témoignage éloquent en faveur d'une radio spécialisée.

1093 La coopérative qui s'est fait le maître d'oeuvre de cette demande dans l'Outaouais ose même formuler un rêve. Pour le moment, une antenne ré-émettrice desservant le bassin de la région métropolitaine de Gatineau et Ottawa permettra à l'ensemble de la population de découvrir une autre sorte de radio à saveur religieuse et spirituelle.

1094 Nous sommes convaincus que Radio Ville-Marie trouvera rapidement ici son auditoire qui fera boule de neige comme ailleurs. Des sondages pourront venir confirmer des cotes d'écoute grandissantes. Ce développement anticipé pourra justifier éventuellement l'établissement d'une station autonome, pleinement à l'image de la région de l'Outaouais.

1095 Nous osons formuler ce rêve à l'occasion de cette audience aujourd'hui face à tous les requérants présents.

1096 Madame la présidente, mesdames et messieurs les Conseillers, nous vous remercions de l'attention bienveillante que vous porterez à la demande de Radio Ville-Marie. Merci.

1097 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, madame. Madame Noël.

1098 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, aujourd'hui, je vais vous demander de préciser quelques points de votre requête pour compléter notre dossier public et on va aborder, notamment, la programmation puis on va parler de l'utilisation optimale de la fréquence que vous nous avez demandée, soit le 96,5 mégahertz.

1099 Mais avant de faire cela, je voudrais revoir avec vous quelques points que vous avez soulevés dans votre présentation de cet après-midi.

1100 Je voudrais d'abord vérifier qui est la requérante parce que la demande a été soumise par Radio Ville-Marie Inc., la titulaire de CIRA-FM à Montréal, mais dans votre présentation cet après-midi, vous faites référence à plusieurs reprises à Radio Ville-Marie... la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.

1101 D'ailleurs, pas seulement votre présentation, mais les articles de journaux que j'ai pris le temps de lire tout à l'heure font également état de la demande de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais. Votre communiqué de presse est au nom de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais.

1102 Dans votre mémoire complémentaire, et ça, ce n'est pas d'aujourd'hui, mais ça date du dépôt de votre requête en 2003. On dit à la page 36 :

« Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais s'est assurée d'une collaboration privilégiée avec le département des communications de l'Université Saint-Paul... »

et caetera. Alors, dans une lettre pour en ajouter, une lettre qui est adressée à monsieur Robert Gagnon, Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais Inc., signée par les Entreprises Duroc Inc., et ça, c'est pour la location d'un espace sur le toit pour installer votre antenne.

1103 Alors, qui est la requérante dans ce dossier? Est-ce que c'est Radio Ville-Marie Inc. Montréal ou si c'est Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais?

1104 MME GARNEAU: C'est Radio Ville-Marie Montréal puisque nous demandons une antenne ré-émettrice, mais je vais laisser monsieur Jean-Guy Roy vous expliquer comment.

1105 M. ROY: Le développement de Radio Ville-Marie que nous avons déjà expliqué aux fonctionnaires du CRTC dans une rencontre de 2001, notre procédé, c'est toujours en réponse aux attentes du milieu.

1106 Alors, on crée dans le milieu un groupe qui s'assure du fonctionnement et qui donne le relais dans le milieu, donc, qui sera une radio vraiment incarnée dans le milieu. Alors, c'est pourquoi dans chacune des régions il y a un groupe porteur qui travaille à faire connaître, à faire avancer le projet. Alors, une dimension communautaire dans notre projet, c'est d'impliquer les gens du milieu, un radio de proximité, proche des gens, mais c'est Radio Ville-Marie Montréal qui demande.

1107 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, un autre point qui me chicote un tout petit peu et c'est à la toute fin de votre présentation de cet après-midi.

1108 Madame Garneau, vous nous dites ceci. « La Coopérative...», je présume qu'on parle de la Coopérative de l'Outaouais à ce moment-là :

« ... s'est fait le maître d'oeuvre de cette demande dans l'Outaouais et ose même formuler un rêve. »

1109 Et j'arrive au rêve :

« Ce développement anticipé pourra justifier éventuellement l'établissement d'une station autonome pleinement à l'image de la région de l'Outaouais. Nous osons formuler ce rêve à l'occasion de cette audience aujourd'hui, face à tous les requérants présents. »

1110 Est-ce que vous voulez nous dire par là que Radio Ville-Marie Montréal fait une demande d'une ré-émettrice, mais qu'elle entend céder cette ré-émettrice-là éventuellement à la Coopérative de l'Outaouais qui l'opérerait pour son compte? Est-ce que c'est ce que je dois comprendre de ce rêve?

1111 MME GARNEAU: Je vais laisser à monsieur Faucher qui est le président de cette Coopérative de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais la chance de vous répondre.

1112 M. FAUCHER: La phrase que vous citez, bien sûr, utilise le mot « un rêve ». C'est une manière un peu colorée ou, disons, hypothétique d'offrir une conclusion qui nous lance en avant. Le succès de Radio Ville-Marie à Montréal, en Estrie et dans la Mauricie bientôt, nous laisse entendre que les mêmes cotes d'écoute vont se matérialiser dans la région ici.

1113 Le niveau de scolarisation, les attentes de la population, tous les appels que nous avons reçus dans le milieu depuis cinq ans que nous pilotons cet écho communautaire nous laisse entendre que ce sera... comme on dit, l'histoire va se répéter, en raison de la qualité de la programmation, des attentes de la population et du haut niveau de scolarisation dans notre milieu ici.

1114 Alors, ce rêve-là fait partie, disons, d'un scénario purement hypothétique pour l'avenir, mais nous serons très heureux d'être une antenne ré-émettrice de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal dans les plus brefs délais.

1115 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En fait, ce que je veux savoir, moi, c'est si Radio Ville-Marie Montréal est un prête-nom pour une demande de la Coopérative de l'Outaouais?

1116 M. FAUCHER: Pas du tout.

1117 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, je vous remercie.Maintenant, on va passer à des questions un petit peu plus terre à terre.

1118 Vous nous avez parlé dans votre programmation de deux heures de programmation par semaine, diffusées à partir d'Ottawa Gatineau, alors que tout le reste de la programmation sera la programmation de Radio Ville-Marie Montréal. Est-ce que j'ai bien compris?

1119 M. ROY: Pas tout à fait parce que nous avons aussi les autres ré-émettrices qui collaborent à la programmation centrale. Dans les décisions prises par CRTC, on nous a demandé de produire dans chacune des régions deux heures d'émissions locales.

1120 Donc, Sherbrooke a déjà plus de deux heures, Trois-Rivières et Victoriaville ont plus de deux heures aussi, donc s'ajouteront aussi dans la programmation centrale, la Gatineau.

1121 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Mais, ce que Gatineau va diffuser, c'est ce qui provient de Montréal?

1122 M. ROY: Oui, avec l'ensemble. C'est ça.

1123 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Plus deux heures... dont les deux heures de Sherbrooke, de Trois-Rivières et Victoriaville, plus les deux heures de l'Outaouais?

1124 M. ROY: Voilà. Exactement.

1125 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Mais toutes les heures qui viennent de Sherbrooke, de Trois-Rivières et de Victoriaville, à l'heure actuelle, sont entendues sur Radio Ville-Marie Montréal?

1126 M. ROY: C'est en onde déjà.

1127 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Parfait. Maintenant, deux heures, c'est pas... ce n'est pas énorme. Pouvez-vous nous donner un peu de détail sur la programmation parce que c'est assez... c'est assez mince les renseignements qu'on a là-dessus. Vous parlez d'une émission musicale de type magazines, des émissions spéciales, mais en deux heures, on ne peut pas fournir un grand spectre de programmation.

1128 M. ROY: Donc, avec l'équipe de Gatineau ici, nous avons travaillé sur des projets possibles, alors il faut commencer par un début, c'est réellement un début. Alors, je laisserais peut-être René Laprise qui travaille ici sur les lieux.

1129 M. LAPRISE: Dans le mémoire déposé en 2003, effectivement, aux pages 34 à 36, on parle des ressources locales et techniques pour la production d'émissions locales. Alors, comme on l'a mentionné, on a déjà une entente. Les gens de l'Outaouais ont déjà une entente avec un endroit pour produire ces deux heures-là, évidemment, et ces deux heures-là ne seront pas nécessairement en direct.

1130 Alors, on parle d'une production qui peut être faite pendant la semaine ou la fin de semaine et envoyée à Montréal et inscrite dans la grille horaire de Montréal.

1131 Nous avons mis sur pied... le Conseil d'administration de la Coopérative Outaouaise a mis sur pied un Comité de réflexion de programmation pour voir quelles seraient ces deux heures que nous pourrions produire ici, pour qu'elles soient un deux heures complémentaires à ce que la grille horaire globale de Radio Ville-Marie offre et non pas une répétition de ce qui peut se faire ailleurs et en ce sens-là, comment notre région pourrait produire un deux heures qui s'inscriraient bien dans les objectifs de Radio Ville-Marie, entre autres, au niveau de la jeunesse, comment on pourrait, dans ces deux heures-là, avoir un regard jeune sur des questions d'ordre spirituel, social, enfin selon les grandes strophes de la programmation de Radio Ville-Marie.

1132 Donc, à ce stade-ci, on n'a pas un minutage de ces deux heures-là en terme de titres d'émissions et d'intervenants et de contenu musical pour parler, mais disons que les objectifs globaux sont de cet ordre-là.

1133 M. ROY: Je peux peut-être compléter aussi dans cette perspective-là. Déjà nous avons eu des émissions dans la région qui sont passées en onde à Montréal déjà. Évidemment, il y a des thématiques que l'on peut, peu importe la région où nous sommes, que la Bible à Montréal ou la Bible à Gatineau, c'est pas mal pareil.

1134 Ce qu'on essaie de faire, c'est aussi une place à l'information et donner une place aux nouvelles. Donc, dans nos bulletins de nouvelles, nous avons toujours une nouvelle ou deux nouvelles qui touchent les régions et nous avons des chroniqueurs de toutes les régions où nous sommes qui participent aux émissions matinales par téléphone, évidemment, sur la vie et ce qui se passe en région.

1135 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous pouvez me donner une espèce d'idée de qu'est-ce que va être votre programmation musicale? Vous dites au niveau d'une émission musicale hebdomadaire centrée sur les talents canadiens.

1136 Est-ce que si on reprend ce que monsieur Laprise nous disait, est-ce que ça va être, je ne sais pas, du heavy metal pour attirer les jeunes ou... je vous pose la question comme ça, mais on dit, centré sur les jeunes. Alors, on va avoir quoi comme émission musicale?

1137 M. FAUCHER: C'est une bonne question que vous posez. Nous avons des critères très précis sur la question musicale par rapport aux engagements que nous avons pris au CRTC et nous avons actuellement même à Montréal des jeunes qui animent des émissions musicales car ils sont liés aussi aux Facultés de musique. Alors nous avons beaucoup de jeunes qui participent qui sont déjà dans les Facultés de musique et qui collaborent chez nous.

1138 Donc, il y a 35 organismes partenaires qui participent aux émissions musicales. Alors, donc, on essaie de respecter le créneau... les créneaux musicaux que nous avons.

1139 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: En terme de pourcentage de cette section de deux heures, quel pourcentage serait consacré à la musique par rapport aux magazines et aux émissions spéciales? C'est ça que j'essaie de savoir. Je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de succès à date.

1140 M. LAPRISE: Je dirais les un quart, 25 pour cent.

1141 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vingt-cinq pour cent pour la musique, 25 pour cent pour les magazines?

1142 M. LAPRISE: Oui et un complément peut-être de 50 pour cent pour les deux autres volets, l'autre volet.

1143 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et 50 pour cent pour les émissions spéciales.

1144 M. LAPRISE: Oui.

1145 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, une heure d'émissions spéciales, une demi-heure de musique, une demi-heure de magazines.

1146 M. LAPRISE: Oui.

1147 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Par semaine.

1148 M. LAPRISE: Oui.

1149 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, vous nous avez dit, c'est bien ça, monsieur Laprise, vous nous aviez dit que vous aviez déjà trouvé un endroit pour produire et je pense que dans votre présentation de ce matin, vous faisiez référence à l'Université Saint-Paul. Est-ce que je suis... ou cet après-midi?

1150 M. LAPRISE: Oui. Il y a déjà un engagement, une entente de principe d'établie avec l'Université Saint-Paul qui permettrait à notre groupe régional de produire les émissions que nous avons à produire à des coûts abordables également de l'utilisation de leur studio son.

1151 Éventuellement, on pourrait même penser à intégrer à cette production-là des étudiants stagiaires qui voudraient y collaborer, soit à la réalisation, à la recherche ou à l'animation.

1152 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'arrivais à la question du personnel. Qui va être impliqué dans la préparation de ces émissions-là?

1153 M. LAPRISE: Comme je le disais tout à l'heure, le Conseil d'administration de Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais, pour donner une note spécifique, a mis sur pied un Comité de programmation réflexion qui va faire un remue-ménage d'idées pour établir concrètement quel sera le style, selon les trois grands champs dans notre mémoire.

1154 Mais, évidemment, ce sera au même principe que ça l'est actuellement à Montréal, du bénévolat et l'implication de quelques membres du Conseil d'administration actuel. Mais je ne pense pas au niveau de l'animation. Un membre de C.A. ne peut pas être animateur d'une émission de radio en onde, à notre point de vue. Alors, ce sera d'autres personnes que les membres du Conseil d'administration.

1155 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, vous allez recruter des bénévoles pour faire l'animation en onde.

1156 M. LAPRISE: Oui.

1157 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, est-ce que... avez-vous une idée du nombre de personnes qui vont être impliquées dans la réalisation de ces deux heures d'émission ou si c'est encore à l'état de projet?

1158 M. LAPRISE: C'est encore à l'état de projet, mais si on fait une règle de trois, un ratio, à Montréal on parle d'à peu près 200 bénévoles pour une semaine de programmation. Alors, si nous on produit deux heures dans une semaine, on peut penser à, quoi, une dizaine de bénévoles qui pourraient collaborer.

1159 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Une dizaine.

1160 M. LAPRISE: Entre 10 et 20 bénévoles.

1161 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous prévoyez qu'il y aura des postes rémunérés pour préparer ces heures-là ou si ce sera exclusivement du bénévolat?

1162 M. LAPRISE: Ce n'est pas dans les plans actuellement d'avoir du personnel rémunéré pour le groupe régional de l'Outaouais.

1163 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Maintenant, si on parle de formation, votre demande, en annexe à votre demande, votre manuel de formation des bénévoles est inclus. Est-ce que c'est ce manuel-là qui va servir de base à la formation des bénévoles en Outaouais, le cas échéant?

1164 M. FAUCHER: Oui. Alors, donc, ce document-là sert à toutes nos régions.

1165 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Et qui va faire la formation?

1166 M. FAUCHER: Alors, nous avons une équipe de professionnels qui donne de la formation. Alors, nous venons de terminer une session de huit ateliers. Tous nos animateurs sont invités à suivre l'étique professionnelle, diction phonétique, pause de voix, pour l'ensemble du personnel. On donne ça à chaque saison.

1167 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: D'accord. Je vous remercie. Ça, ça va clore l'aspect programmation. On va maintenant parler de la fréquence.

1168 Quatre-vingt-seize cinq (96,5) ou 96,3, pour nous c'est équivalent parce que c'est la première fréquence adjacente, donc on estime que toutes les demandes qui sont sur l'une ou l'autre de ces deux fréquences-là sont concurrentes quant à la fréquence.

1169 Il y a quatre demandes, quatre demandes sur 96,5 et il y en a deux autres sur 96,3 qui, pour nous, est la même chose.

1170 Quand on a une telle concurrence, on essaie de savoir pourquoi, d'après vous, il s'agirait, si on vous accordait la licence, de l'utilisation optimale de la fréquence que vous convoitez. Alors, j'aimerais ça que vous nous disiez pourquoi, quelles sont les raisons principales qui devraient inciter le Conseil à vous attribuer la fréquence 96,5 pour une ré-émettrice?

1171 M. FAUCHER: Les études techniques faites par notre ingénieur nous ont présenté cette fréquence-là comme la meilleure possible pour rendre le service à la population que l'on veut rejoindre et à l'attente de la population des deux rives.

1172 On trouve qu'avec cette fréquence-là on va pouvoir couvrir le territoire ou le rayonnement qu'on veut couvrir pour rejoindre les gens.

1173 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais vous comprenez que pour une ré-émettrice, ce n'est pas une station qui va faire beaucoup de programmation originale, deux heures par semaine.

1174 M. FAUCHER: Oui, je comprends. Oui, qui puisse augmenter, qui peut augmenter aussi à la longue.

1175 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Alors, et les concurrents qui ont fait des demandes, ce ne sont pas pour des ré-émettrices. Ce sont pour des gens qui vont faire de la programmation originale.

1176 M. FAUCHER: Oui, mais nous comprenons aussi qu'est-ce que nous offrons est un contenu différent, un contenu de qualité et aussi que nous commençons par deux heures d'émission qui pourront être augmentées, comme c'est le cas à Sherbrooke et comme c'est le cas à Trois-Rivières.

1177 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que, sur le plan technique, l'utilisation, la façon dont vous allez utiliser cette fréquence en fait un usage optimal pour couvrir la plus grande population possible?

1178 M. FAUCHER: Je pense que monsieur Gagnon peut répondre à ça.

1179 M. GAGNON: Oui. Disons, selon les études de propagation que nous avons fait et selon aussi le logiciel de Industries Canada qui nous a permis de tracer une courbe de propagation, nous allons couvrir essentiellement la grande majorité de la population francophone de la région des deux rives avec notre site qui est placé de façon assez centrale par rapport à la géographie régionale.

1180 Étant au centre de la ville de Hull, sans trop d'obstacles, nous devrions facilement couvrir la population que nous voulons desservir, c'est-à-dire les deux grandes villes de Gatineau et Ottawa.

1181 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous êtes situé... ah! oui, l'Édifice Sun Life. D'accord.

1182 Maintenant, est-ce que vous avez des alternatives? Vous avez mentionné trois autres choix. Est-ce que c'est... c'est-à-dire deux autres choix. Est-ce que vous avez poussé vos recherches un peu pour savoir si vous auriez une couverture adéquate avec les deux autres choix que vous avez? 99,7, 101,9 et 104,7, il y en a trois.

1183 M. GAGNON: Notre mémoire technique porte essentiellement sur la fréquence 96,5. Nous n'avons pas fait d'étude plus poussée sur les deux autres fréquences que vous venez de mentionner.

1184 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Merci. Maintenant...

1185 M. LAPRISE: Pardon, madame. Si je peux revenir sur votre expression « l'utilisation optimale ».

1186 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: On parle de technique.

1187 M. LAPRISE: Au plan technique. Bon, je mettais ça en relation avec un contenu. C'est que ce type de programmation religieuse et spirituelle n'existe pas en langue française actuellement dans la région. C'est dans ce sens-là qu'on prend la place de personne. On offre un produit entièrement nouveau à découvrir par la population francophone des deux rives. Il y a un potentiel de 300 000 auditeurs francophones.

1188 Alors, c'est dans ce sens de qualité optimale pour une programmation qui actuellement n'est pas disponible.

1189 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Mais je parlais strictement de technique. Est-ce que cette fréquence-là peut être utilisée pour rejoindre un plus vaste auditoire d'une autre manière, si elle est basée ailleurs, ou si l'antenne est plus haute ou si le wattage est plus élevé? Je parle exclusivement de technique.

1190 Maintenant, en 2001, vous aviez... la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais avait fait une demande pour exploiter une station FM de langue française à vocation religieuse et cette demande a été refusée. Ça c'est la décision au CRTC 2001-629.

1191 La demande que vous nous présentez aujourd'hui pour une ré-émettrice à Gatineau ressemble curieusement à la demande de 2001, en ce qui a trait, en tout cas, à la programmation locale.

1192 Est-ce que vous pouvez nous dire en quoi la demande d'aujourd'hui pourrait nous assurer d'une plus grande diversité de programmation que celle de 2001?

1193 M. FAUCHER: Suite à la réponse du CRTC en 2001, nous sommes venus rencontrer l'équipe ici du CRTC pour échanger avec eux pourquoi on ne l'avait pas eue, qu'est-ce qui fait que ça n'avait pas fonctionné. Alors, on a échangé longuement, on a passé une demi-journée avec les gens ici et ils nous ont conseillé de demander une ré-émettrice et c'est ce que nous avons fait.

1194 C'est plus facile parce qu'à l'époque, on avait demandé une grande puissance. Alors, pour une radio spécialisée, donc c'était trop grand. Alors, nous avons re-diminué notre demande en fonction des commentaires et suggestions du CRTC, ce qu'on a fait aussi pour Trois-Rivières, c'est ce qu'on a fait aussi pour Victoriaville.

1195 Donc, on a poursuivi cette démarche-là et on s'est dit, on va poursuivre la même démarche, à savoir pour la programmation, d'ajouter des émissions à l'intérieur et, si possible, augmenter le nombre d'émissions.

1196 Voilà, c'est un peu ça qu'on a fait comme démarche.

1197 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Moi, je n'ai pas d'autre question, sinon que, comme tous les gens, vous allez avoir l'occasion de nous faire un petit deux minutes, en nous expliquant en deux minutes pourquoi votre demande est la meilleure, mais je vais demander à madame la présidente s'il y a d'autres questions.

1198 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Non, nous n'avons pas de question. Alors, allez-y.

1199 M. FAUCHER: Au tout début, on nous a demandé quel était le rapport entre la requérante Radio Ville-Marie Montréal et la Coopérative Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais. Je pense que la réponse a été brève, mais très précise.

1200 Nous avons tenu à nous incorporer juridiquement en Outaouais sous la forme d'une coopérative pour susciter un bassin de sociétaires, des gens qui s'impliqueraient, qui indiqueraient une intention de s'impliquer avec nous dans la promotion et, éventuellement, dans les levées de fonds qui seront nécessaires pour établir les équipements.

1201 Le statut de coopérative aussi nous a permis d'obtenir la permission d'émettre des reçus de charité pour des dons qui nous ont permis de fonctionner jusqu'à date. Mais nous voulons... ce bassin de sociétaires maintenant dépasse les 550 personnes, plus de 5 000 personnes ont offert une signature d'appui il y a deux ans dans une campagne à travers le réseau des paroisses catholiques des deux côtés de la rivière et je pense que nous avons tenu depuis presque cinq ans maintenant à développer une forme, disons, d'effort local, à couleur locale animée par des leaders communautaires des deux côtés de la région.

1202 Nous avons trouvé des appuis dans le monde politique, scolaire, éducatif et cette couleur locale nous a donné un sentiment d'identité et ça nous a permis de dire, nous répondons à un appel qui vient du milieu et c'est dans ce sens-là que Radio Ville-Marie Outaouais a déjà son identité dans un groupe de porteurs de ce rêve, de ce projet.

1203 MME GARNEAU: Est-ce que je peux avoir mon petit deux minutes? Merci, monsieur Faucher.

1204 J'aimerais juste rappeler le caractère unique de Radio Ville-Marie, unique non seulement par la qualité de réflexion oecuménique, religieuse et spirituelle qui l'inspire, mais j'ose dire aussi par la qualité de son fonctionnement participatif et actif au sein même de la société qu'elle dessert.

1205 Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf pour cent (99%) de la production de Radio Ville-Marie est originale. Elle est presque donc entièrement une radio créée par le talent, l'intelligence, la passion, le dévouement des gens de chez nous.

1206 C'est une radio qui se distingue par sa ferveur inter-religieuse, inter-culturelle, inter-générationnelle et c'est une sorte de forum, d'agora, où se bousculent peut-être des idées ou se confrontent des idées, mais sur des valeurs, des témoignages de tous ceux qui ont envie de découvrir, de créer, de partager le beau sens des choses de la vie et du monde. Et il y a tout ici dans cette région pour que soit encore plus riche cette radio unique basée sur les grandes valeurs de notre société, de notre histoire, de notre coeur et de notre âme. Voilà.

1207 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous remercions, madame Garneau et messieurs. Cela complète notre première journée d'audience.

1208 We will start again tomorrow morning at 9:00 with the Astral application.

1209 ]Nous reprendrons demain matin à 9 h. À ce moment-là, nous entendrons la demande d'Astral. Merci et bonne soirée à tous.

--- L'audience est ajournée à 1637 pour reprendre le

jeudi 2 décembre 2004 à 0900 / Whereupon the

hearing adjourned at 1637, to resume on Thursday,

December 2, 2004 at 0900

suite / more

Date modified:

2004-12-01