ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Halifax - Nova Scotia / (Nouvelle-Écosse) - 2004-03-04

HELD AT: TENUE À:

World Trade and World Trade and

Convention Centre Convention Centre

1800 Argyle Street 1800, rue Argyle

Halifax, Nova Scotia Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse)

4 March 2004 4 mars 2004

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

BEFORE / DEVANT:

David Colville Chairperson

Vice-Chair of

Telecommunications

Barbara Cram Regional Commissioner for

Manitoba and Saskatchewan

Ron Williams Regional Commissioner for

Alberta and the Northwest

Territories

Jean-Marc Demers National Commissioner

Stuart Langford National Commissioner

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Pierre LeBel Hearing Secretary / Secrétaire

d'audience

Peter McCallum Senior Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

principal

Sylvie Jones Conseillère / Counsel

HELD AT: TENUE À:

World Trade and World Trade and

Convention Centre Convention Centre

1800 Argyle Street 1800, rue Argyle

Halifax, Nova Scotia Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse)

4 March 2004 4 mars 2004

PAGE / PARA NO.

PHASE III

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR

Jonathan M. Mullane 832 / 4579

Orbital Media Group 835 / 4598

Frederick R. MacGillivray 845 / 4663

Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia 851 / 4697

Janet McMillan 860 / 4754

Terry Kelly 867 / 4805

Darrell Blenus 873 / 4840

Karen Oldfield 879 / 4883

Nations in a Circle 882 / 4907

André Bourgeois 885 / 4928

Ed Matwawana 904 / 5043

Emanuel F. Serra 909 / 5082

Adam Dowling 913 / 5113

Donald MacDonald 920 / 5159

Dorothy M. Fenn 935 / 5261

Shams Tharani 937 / 5280

Awesome DKD Inc. 946 / 5350

PAGE / PARA NO.

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR

CKMW Radio Ltd. 954 / 5414

Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures 960 / 5464

Halifax Jamz 95.7 Inc. 962 / 5476

East Coast Broadcasting Inc. 963 / 5497

Global Communications Ltd. 972 / 5551

Maritime Broadcasting System 981 / 5610

Astral Radio Atlantic 981 / 5618

Rogers Broadcasting Ltd. 986 / 5661

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR

ROGERS Broadcasting Limited 993 / 5713

Halifax, Nova Scotia / Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse)

--- Upon resuming on on Thursday, March 4, 2004

at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

4 mars 2004 à 0900

4566 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to our proceeding, Day 4 of our Hearing into applications for Halifax, Saint John, Moncton and Fredericton.

4567 We are at the phase of this proceeding where we hear from the general interveners in respect of the applications for Halifax.

4568 Before we get started, I probably should ask if there is anyone in the room celebrating a birthday today?

4569 If so, five commissioners will go up to your chair and sing Happy Birthday!

--- Laughter / Rires

4570 It is a beautiful spring day today, although you would not hear it, we seem to manage to schedule all of our hearing rooms with no windows, so, the whole world could pass by and we would not know it!

4571 For the benefit of the interveners who are going to be appearing before us today, some of you may have appeared before the Commission before, but perhaps many of you have not.

4572 If we do not ask any questions, it is because your intervention was very clear and thorough and we understand what your point is.

4573 If we do ask a question or two, it is not because we are trying to trip you up or intimidate you, it is just because we are trying to clarify some point that perhaps we do not quite understand in your submission.

4574 So with that, I will turn it over to our hearing secretary to call the first intervener.

4575 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4576 As you mentioned in phase III, appearing interveners are provided with a period of 10 minutes to intervene; and for the record, I would like to indicate at this point that number 2 on the agenda, LanMar Logistics Incorporated; number 3, Atlantic Media Institute; and number 13, Reflective Entertainment, have elected not to appear at the public hearing so their intervention will remain on the file as non-appearing interventions.

4577 So the first appearing intervener this morning is number 10, Mr. Jonathan Mullane.

4578 Mr. Mullane, you have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

4579 MR. MULLANE: Good morning, Chairman Colville, commissioners and commission staff.

4580 My name is Jonathan M. Mullane and I am here in support of Global Communications application for a new radio station.

4581 I am a Halifax-based recording artist and have released three CD's on my own label, Findis Records.

4582 I have been fortunate enough to receive commercial radio airplay across Canada from my previous CD's.

4583 I would like to relate a recent experience of mine, which demonstrates why I feel there is a strong need in Halifax and Halifax area for a station that plays soft pop, which brings me here today.

4584 I have released three singles from my most recent CD, all of which received airplay nationally in Canada; however, I received no airplay for any of the songs in the Halifax market.

4585 All of the singles received significant rotation and specifically the most recent single, which was played on virtually all stations in the Maritimes in the appropriate format.

4586 It also charted in Canada at number 75 in the BDS chart.

4587 The station in Halifax that I thought would be most appropriate to play my music, and did so for previous releases, said the music did not fit their format and therefore refused to play it.

4588 It is an expensive and time-consuming effort to promote a single to radio these days, and very disappointing when there is no support at radio on the local level.

4589 I feel this example clearly demonstrates the need for a station that will play soft pop music.

4590 I feel confident supporting Global's application because they have already demonstrated support of regional musicians on their local TV station. This has provided valuable exposure for me as I have appeared on their show Global Noon and have been featured on several entertainment reports.

4591 It is crucial to have local airplay when promoting an album. It strongly influences CD sales, creates live performance opportunities and increases an artists profile.

4592 What it ultimately does is create the music business opportunities for an artist like myself.

4593 For these reasons, I hope you approve a license for The Breeze. Thank you.

4594 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Mullane, I appreciate your intervention here today.

4595 We do not have any questions for you.

4596 MR. MULLANE: Thank you.

4597 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next appearing interventions will be presented by the Orbital Media Group, Ms Sheila O'Gorman.

INTERVENTION

4598 MS O'GORMAN: Distinguished CRTC Commissioners, it is my pleasure to appear before you today in support of the Jamz 95.7 Radio Application and Kaleidoscope Community Radio Society.

4599 There are many fine applications for this license, which, of course, only makes the selection of the best application that more difficult.

4600 Orbital Media Group would like to apologize to the Commission that our president, Ron Drews, could not be here today. He regrets that he is not able to return from business in Shanghai that we are undertaking with a new television station they are calling Dragon Television.

4601 My name is Sheila O'Gorman. As the executive vice-president of the company, I am very pleased to be here to present OMG's brief and support of the Jamz 95.7 application.

4602 We support these applications because of three major factors I hope the Commission finds compelling in measuring its decision.

4603 First, we believe that the youths are under-served in the Halifax market and that the Jamz 95.7 application is promoting a format that mostly appeals to the youth market.

4604 Secondly, we believe that Jamz 95.7 application is the most astute in building a youth brand directed at the Halifax market.

4605 Third, we believe that given the socio-demographic characteristics of the Halifax radio market, a strong community-based approach, such as that afforded by Jamz 95.7 application, has the best chance of immersing its radio listeners and maintaining their interest over time.

4606 On serving the youth market, we believe that there is no question that the Halifax market needs a radio station that caters to the youth. This is not only borne by demographic trends, but the fact that the majority of the applications for this license, including Jam, Rogers and Astral, are focused on serving the youth-adult market; especially in the 12 to 34-age category, which itself spans a number of generational musical tastes.

4607 Halifax is attracting a lot of interest from groups who want to serve the youth market.

4608 We understand that a key challenge of the CRTC is to select and ensure that the right programming formats enter a given market at the right time. No radio format can exist unchanged for a long period of time.

4609 Radio formats evolve as musical tastes evolve, especially in the case of the youth market.

4610 I want to have a growth simplification hereby suggesting to the Commission that there are basically two main types of programming: trend-setting formats and retrospective formats.

4611 Unfortunately, all too many stations thrive on the latter and do not give enough of an opportunity to the former.

4612 Retrospective formats are safe and commercially viable because they appeal to the sentiments of substantial segments of a population who have come to cherish a given genre of music. But this is also an aging, ever shrinking demographic.

4613 Trend-setting formats inject vitality and energy into a community. They are what made the 50's and 60's musically great. Radio stations took chances in those days, with emerging talent, and they made a big contribution to launching the rock and roll generation.

4614 The Jamz 95.7 application is asking the Commission to take a chance on the ability of the youths to invent itself again in 2004, in Halifax, to create a generic music expressed by its understanding of the progressive-alternative dance format that will have an enduring consequences in influencing people's musical tastes.

4615 Progressive-alternative dance is, as the Commission suggests, a composite music format. We call it a "hybrid brand, with performers such as Raven Maize, Cold Play, Kings of Tomorrow, Deborah Cox, New Order, Seal, Nelly Furtato and the Spoons on the play list.

4616 The Jamz 95.7 application brings together the raw energy, fun, individualism and irreverence that youth crave.

4617 In addition, the tremendous strength of Jamz 95.7 application is that it wants to provide a platform for the DJ culture in Halifax. It wants to bring its hybrid brand alive with the individual, creative, presentational and music styling of the DJ's themselves so the DJ's actively build and maintain the Jamz brand in Halifax youth market.

4618 Halifax is bursting with young, creative energy; with people who want to move, express themselves, celebrate life.

4619 Statistics Canada data show that more than 25 percent of its population is under 20 years of age. About 50 percent are under 40 years of age.

4620 The University of Toronto researchers have shown that Halifax ranks in the top 5 Canadian cities on their talent index; and the top 10 list of Canadian cities on their bohemian index.

4621 A large part of this is due to the young demographics, combined with educational achievement and an on-going lifestyle.

4622 Statistics Canada data shows that compared to urban centres across Canada, the highest portion of people living in Halifax, about 130,00 people or more than 1/3 of the population are graduates of trade schools, colleges and universities.

4623 In addition to this, Halifax is home to almost 30,000 university students enrolled in five excellent post-secondary schools.

4624 When you really think about this target demographic, do you really think that easy listening is their missing format?

4625 These people want their music to move them, not to sedate them.

4626 Do you really think that urban top 40, urban rhythmic or youth contemporary formats have the muscle to move young audiences?

4627 The Jamz 95.7 application wants to shake up the format labels which we believe have become far too compartmentalized, far too pre-packaged, far too canned for youth generation to make radio a very relevant part of their entertainment experience.

4628 In all forms of entertainment, whether it's sports, music or movies, the independent label drives youth interest.

4629 The Jamz 95.7 DJ's and the hybrid play list will bring the Indie experience to the Jamz brands. We believe that the deliver of the experience, together with an eclectic collection of high-energy sound is what will make Jamz 95.7 a success in the Halifax market.

4630 The thing about Jamz 95.7 application that packs such a strong additional punch is its approach towards serving the community. It is keeping with the Indie experience it wants to empower the future of the station through home-grown, non-profit interests and initiatives, working with Kaleidoscope Radio Society and the Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures.

4631 The CDVC is a community-based, non-profit, non-secretariat organization dealing with real life social issues of the community.

4632 The Centre is focused on bringing about social awareness among cultural groups leading to social integration of cultures within the community.

4633 Cultural, diversity and social integration are the tremendous interest to young people and the social cause that is an integral part of all of the musical gems that will continue to Jamz 95.7 brand.

4634 The support of this cause within Jamz 95.7 brand, at the grass root levels, brings authenticity to the brand.

4635 The Jamz 95.7 approach of serving the community enhanced from the factor and the Canadian talent development funding, approaches offered by the other applicants.

4636 They all offer attractive programs designed to support local talent, but they also take largely an event-driven approach.

4637 While Halifax Jamz is offering the second largest CTD funding of any application in these proceedings.

4638 By contrast, the approach of the Jamz 95.7 application to the community is caused-based. Seeking to bring opportunities to a cultural diverse range of youth people.

4639 The overriding cause of the application is to work through the Radio Society and the community-based Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures.

4640 This will have a net impact of reaching into the grass roots and immigrant populations of the community, creating opportunities for young talent, providing an opportunity for young people to identify with the social causes of Jamz 95.7 in an authentic way and attracting young people of all cultural backgrounds to Jamz 95.7 brand.

4641 OMG has reviewed the available data and it is clear that the Halifax market needs a youth-orientated station. There is clearly a strong demand in the marketplace for this.

4642 The current market study research data presented by Astral and further supports the composite progressive alternative dance format of the Jamz 95.7 application as each of these categories independently attract a lot of interest from youth segment of the market.

4643 What will be interesting is how the segment responds to an exciting hybrid blend or branch.

4644 We believe that Jamz 95.7 blended format will leverage interest and create a dynamic effect on the youth market.

4645 Our challenge to the Commission is therefore to take a chance on an innovative high-brand orientated youth market application.

4646 Jamz 95.7 may be the garage band application, but we all know what can happen in garages, whether it be music or IT business.

4647 We believe that of all of the applications, Jamz 95.7 most has its finger on the pulse of the emerging musical tastes, of the homegrown desire for self-expression and of the youth generation of today.

4648 Thank you, very much.

4649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms O'Gorman.

4650 I must say, it occurred to me several time through the week that if this Commission had existed in 1951, we could have been sitting here listening to applications for a rock and roll station and wondering what that was.

4651 I do not have any questions on your intervention that you presented today, but I wonder if you might give us a sense, a brief outline of what Orbital Media Group is?

4652 MS O'GORMAN: Orbital Media Group is a small public-relations firm, Ron Drews, the president, has a long-standing relationship with Manuel. Manuel asked if he would be so kind as to provide an objective opinion, there is no business relationship established for contracting our service for this intervention.

4653 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us the particular focus of the work you do?

4654 MS O'GORMAN: Orbital Media Group, well, I am leaving today and on my way to Toronto, one of the industries we are involved in is the film industry, and I am meeting with Paul Gross this afternoon, we are working on a political thriller that starts shooting in Ottawa the end of March, so I hope you will all watch when it comes out in the fall.

4655 And we work in health, we have done some work with CHIN, we work in hi-tech sector; we have many clients in varying industries.

4656 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.

4657 MS O'GORMAN: You are very welcome. Thank you again.

4658 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

4659 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next appearing interventions will be presented by Mr. E. Neil Black.

4660 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr. Black here?

--- No response / Pas de réponse

4661 MR. LEBEL: Not seeing Mr. Black, Mr. Chairman.

4662 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. Frederick MacGillivray.

INTERVENTION

4663 MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman; good morning Commissioners.

4664 Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here with you this morning and to express my comments and views on Maritime Broadcasting opportunities here this week or today.

4665 My name is Fred MacGillivray, I am president and CEO of Trade Centre Limited, a Provincial Crown Corporation.

4666 I have lived most of my life here in Halifax, I was born here in 1945, it has been my city and my home. I was raised here and went to elementary school, high school and university here in Halifax.

4667 Like most of us who are pursuing a business career, I had to relocate and live in eight provinces, worked and lived in eight provinces across the country over the years.

4668 I was able to come back to Halifax, like most of us do, in the late 80's and was able to stay here. So I know the city, obviously, very well.

4669 What was clear to me, in my business career over the years, having had an opportunity to live in so many areas of Canada, that local ownership was very important to all the communities in which I lived.

4670 Local ownership who earn their dollars, of course, in their local marketplace, spend their dollars in the local marketplace, create employment, sustain employment long-term; and it is no different here in Halifax.

4671 If you look at the company Maritime Broadcasting and you look at the marketplace itself, there is no question that the maritimes and the local marketplaces had difficulties over the years.

4672 But of course, we have moved forward and we have achieved some success, but mostly because of local entrepreneurs.

4673 People who are, again, committed to putting their dollars into the local community; having ownership of business; creating jobs; sustaining them long-term, which is most important to the success of all the communities, especially Halifax.

4674 I have found this local ownership Maritime Broadcasting to truly be committed to these values and these values, of course, continue to be very important to us in creating success in not only Halifax, but around the Maritimes.

4675 The city and the Maritimes themselves, especially the City of Halifax, has been recognized over the past number of years as being a great destination.

4676 In the mid-90's we had the G-7 conference for the first time; we had the Tall Ship's in the 90's; we are going to encounter and celebrate the World Women's Hockey Championship this coming month. The World Juniors, of course, we celebrated the World Juniors last year, the most successful World Juniors in its history.

4677 And I share this with you because Maritime Broadcasting has played a major roll. They really have been there. And it is great for a local business person such as myself, and as a community leader and a volunteer, to be able to pick up the phone and call local ownership, call local management, deal with their associates who recognize the issues, concerns and opportunities in our community and are able to say "yes" when you call, to say, "please join me in doing something significant in Halifax and in our region of eastern Canada". When you are able to do this, you are able to achieve continued success.

4678 These people know the issues, they know clearly what the needs of this community are. They continue to be a big part of it.

4679 I have personally been involved and fortunate and successful in raising millions of dollars in this community over the years. And I have counted on people like Maritime Broadcasting for their ongoing support.

4680 Whether it be as a director of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia, whether it be as the Chair of the United Way Campaign for Halifax, whether it be helping the Learning Disabilities Association of Nova Scotia or the Arthritis Society or sitting at a hospital or chairing a hospital board here in our community or university board.

4681 I have been able to call upon the ownership and the management and the associates of Maritime Broadcasting to not only assist me and other associates of mine in making this a better place in which to live and work by their partnerships, I have been able to ask management and ownership to sit on some of these boards with me. They are unselfish in their approach and their commitment to this community. And their long-serving commitment to this community is important to all of us.

4682 I have no reason to believe that in the future we will continue to depend upon people like Maritime Broadcasting, their ownership and their associates to be able to achieve success and celebrate success in Halifax and in the Maritimes.

4683 I believe that gaining the local ownership is vital to the continued growth of our communities. I believe that it will continue with the relationship to the Maritime Broadcasting in this community to be able to do better things in this community, to be able to bring more events to our city, to be able to help more non-profit organizations. Their local initiatives are important to all of us.

4684 I just refer to one most important one, unfortunately Halifax has encountered Hurricane Juan this year and a major snowstorm. These kind of events, when you notice local ownership coming forward in such a quick fashion to recognize, I quote and share with you the Halifax Public Gardens, which is close to our heart, part of our history and an enormous part of our community, which brings many people from across the country and around the world, they stepped forward an in one day in a major radio program raised a million dollars to help us look at this historic site and say we can fix this over a period of time, maintain this in our community in our downtown core of Halifax so that we, as people who live and work here, can enjoy it, but also people that come here. It helps us continue to grow again and succeed and celebrate success.

4685 So in closing, the importance to me is to continue to support local ownership, to allow them to work on a level playing field that will allow them to continue to be strong in this marketplace and to help other markets in the Maritimes throughout their network.

4686 So again, local support is important and I thank you for listening to me this morning.

4687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. MacGillivray.

4688 You and I were born the same year and I am sitting here try to figure out why my hair is so white and yours is not!

--- Laughter / Rires

4689 MR. MacGILLIVRAY: You went to QEH and I went to Mount Saint Vincent!

4690 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is probably it, yes.

4691 The next time you organize the World Juniors though, you have to arrange that we win!

4692 MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Yes. I am also chairing the Women's World this year and they have not lost 39 straight games.

4693 So we hope that Halifax is going to continue to make it the 40^th championship to celebrate another World Championship in our city.

4694 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, good luck with that. Thank you for your intervention.

4695 MR. MacGILLIVRAY: Thank you very kindly.

4696 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by the Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia, Moka Case.

INTERVENTION

4697 MS CASE: Good morning. I am Moka Case, I am the artistic director for the Nova Scotia Multicultural Festival.

4698 The Nova Scotia Multicultural Festival and Maritime Broadcasting have been community partners since 2001.

4699 It is based on this established mutually beneficial relationship and even more evident from our most recent discussions with MBS Radio that it shares a similar passion with the Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia to foster, develop, promote and celebrate cultural diversity through music.

4700 The Multicultural Association offers its support for the MBS radio application to the CRTC for a new mainstream AC/FM station in the Halifax regional municipality.

4701 The Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia was established 29 years ago as a non-profit charitable organization that represents the interests of over 100 multicultural groups in Nova Scotia and as such is recognized as the leader in advancing multiculturalism and promoting equality rights.

4702 From June 16 to 20 of this year, and I invite you all to come to the event, we will be celebrating the 20^th anniversary of the Nova Scotia Multicultural Festival. It is an outdoor event that is held along the Dartmouth waterfront and attracts three day annual attendance of between 40 - 46,000 people. The event is the largest multicultural celebration east of Montreal.

4703 The festival presents a spectacular showcase of Canada's ethnic diversities through music, dance, food and exhibits.

4704 The festival presents, in a professional manner, artistic experiences by professional artists as well as amateur artists representing a diverse multicultural background.

4705 Over three days last June, more than 500 performers from over 30 cultural groups, that is "local groups", provided daily entertainment.

4706 The festival features professional Canadian world music talent nightly, on its main stage and a beer tent and boardwalk tent. By presenting quality world music, evening attendance has increased. The festival would like to do this, but currently we lack the necessary funds.

4707 The 2004 East Coast Music Awards that just passed for the 2000 festival nominated as an event of the year.

4708 Maritime Broadcasting and the Nova Scotia Multicultural Festival have been community partners since 2001, when CHNS became the festival's only radio sponsor.

4709 In 2002, MBS added Country 101 to compliment the CHNS coverage; and both stations have worked for the festival ever since.

4710 The existing sponsorship is an in kind advertising and promotional contribution that the festival could not otherwise afford to purchase.

4711 In addition to the on-air promotional package leading up to the event, the station promotes the event with live updates and giveaways from the Festival grounds throughout the weekend.

4712 In fact, Maritime Broadcasting provides the Festival with a radio personality to perform Master of Ceremonies duties on the main stage and in the beer tent all day and all night all Saturday and Sunday.

4713 Clearly, Maritime Broadcasting has proven its commitment to the multicultural community and its claim that it shares a similar passion with our organization and its members is based on facts.

4714 MANS was approached by other applicants, but prioritized its support for Maritime Broadcasting for several reasons.

4715 Maritime Broadcasting has a track record for giving back to this community through its existing sponsorship with the festival and, as Mr. MacGillivray pointed out, a lot of other initiative here in Halifax regional municipality.

4716 This illustrates to us a true commitment to our community, a proposed AC format will serve an important demographic in HRM and will help the Festival reach the important 25 to 54 year old radio and festival audience.

4717 The MBS commitment of an annual cash sponsorship through the Canadian Talent Development Fund of $40,000 over seven years will have a huge, positive impact on my capability to be able to hire Canadian World Music acts.

4718 Maritime Broadcasting is an east coast radio chain and the Multicultural Associations believe that when possible, it should support local businesses, local ownership is important to us.

4719 Maritime Broadcasting proposal is well-researched and it reflects an understanding of this region, which means that the proposed station is, in our opinion, more likely to succeed and to enjoy longevity.

4720 MANS believes that the proposed new mainstream AC format will be well received by the culturally diverse Halifax regional municipality community.

4721 While there is not a large enough audience, we believe in HRM to support a stand alone World Music radio station, a AC station is a most suitable commercial format to feature popular world music acts, and I guess I would like to stress that point.

4722 There does not exist this format in the marketplace here right now.

4723 We can see very easily through our discussions that as we are leading up to the Festival, we could do features on the station to promote Canadian world music talent, and Nova Scotian based world music talent as well.

4724 Based on the research conducted by Maritime Broadcasting in preparation for the CRTC application, it appears that an AC radio station is most needed at HRM. HRM is comprised of a culturally diverse population that would be best served by a format that would most reflect the community's need.

4725 The Festival, in its 19 year history, we are proud to say has never had a deficit, but this is due largely to the fact that it also operates with a very, very modest budget. And an even smaller entertainment budget.

4726 The Maritime Broadcasting Canadian Development Fund would allow us to increase the number and the diversity of performances, artists and artistic experiences at the festival.

4727 The Maritime Broadcasting funds would allow us to increase the presence of artists from other provinces and territories, since it would not only help with the performance fees, but the related travel expenses.

4728 In the past, with such a limited program in dollars, the Festival has not been able to afford the associated travel expenses that are associated with booking out of province artists.

4729 That is about it.

4730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentation.

4731 Your presentation prompts a couple of questions in my mind.

4732 Is there any relationship between your organization and the Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures?

4733 MS CASE: We are not the same organization.

4734 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that.

4735 But is there any relationship between the two?

4736 MS CASE: We partner on different projects, certainly.

4737 THE CHAIRPERSON: And notwithstanding your support for MBS, do you have any comment on the application?

4738 MS CASE: I would make an additional comment, actually.

4739 Early on, in fact a day before we received the phone call from Maritime Broadcasting about their application, the executive director of MANS -- and it is on record -- did submit to you a letter of support for the CKMW application for youth radio.

4740 As I said, as it came down the pipe we decided to prioritize who we would like to put the most support behind in case the Commission decided on only one application.

4741 However, if the Commission were looking at more than one application, MANS would throw its support secondly behind the youth radio proposed by CKMW. We would be very eager to welcome two stations and they would certainly be our second choice.

4742 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess I am confusing things even more for you, I am sorry, I apologize for that.

4743 It was actually the Kaleidoscope application the community radio station which is supported by the Centre for --

4744 MS CASE: We are not affiliated -- we are completely independent organization that has been established for 29 years. And so our submission was put in completely separate and I am here completely independent of their submissions.

4745 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just one other question.

4746 Towards the end of your presentation you made a reference to stand alone world music.

4747 Could you just repeat what you said in reference to that?

4748 MS CASE: What I was getting at was that a stand alone -- we do not perceive that in HRM there would be a stand alone world music genre, specifically, radio station. It just does not seem very realistic for a very limited format.

4749 And understanding that, if we were to look at a mainstream commercial format, AC would be the best suited, in our opinion, that we could partner with and be able to play that genre of music on the airwaves here in HRM.

4750 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentation.

4751 Mr. Secretary?

4752 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4753 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Ms Janet McMillan.

INTERVENTION

4754 MS McMILLAN: Good morning Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Janet McMillan, I am a co-owner of MTL Public Affairs.

4755 I have asked to appear before you today to discuss my interest in and support for the license proposed by Maritime Broadcast Systems.

4756 Our company has been providing public and media relations counsel and support to clients in Halifax and throughout the maritime region for over 20 years, 18 of which I have been with the firm.

4757 I felt that I had something to contribute to this application, as I make it my daily business to understand and work with the media on behalf of our clients.

4758 My experience in the Halifax market has led me to two conclusions. There are no commercial radio stations that effectively reach a more affluent and better educated populous and there is a real shortage of news reporting throughout the day here.

4759 The local CBC stations do a tremendous job of providing in-depth coverage of regional, national and international stories. When it comes to news, their hours of tuning are among the highest in the market.

4760 So from a marketing perspective, their audience profile is very attractive. But try to find even a part of this audience in private radio and you will become frustrated. It is the solution to this frustration that has brought me before you today.

4761 I believe that the music format proposed by Maritime Broadcast systems will attract a listener base that will have a demographic profile unlike any of the existing commercial services. Their emphasis on news within a music format will undoubtedly draw an audience which includes more decision makers. It is to these people that very often I have to speak on behalf of my clients and with no newscast throughout the day, much of the commercial-based radio in this market simply is not a good fit for my clients.

4762 There is talk in our profession about the shrinking newsroom.

4763 Having been in the business as long as I have, let me tell you, I have certainly seen it shrink in this regional marketplace.

4764 My clients, they range from private sector, institutions, health, government, not for profit. They look to my colleagues and I to guide them through their media interventions.

4765 Apart from CBC, the days are gone when a news reporter from a private station is able to become even slightly involved in matters of local and regional news. We refer to the local private radio news coverage, and I quote, "rip and read", because at best they rely on faxes and e-mails or, in reading from someone else's interpretation of a story. They are just not resourced to cover matters of public interest.

4766 This to me, does not serve our communities well and this, to me in these days where we need more scrutiny and call for more accountability, it is not in the interest of the public.

4767 I like the idea of increased news and information, so you might ask why not an all news format?

4768 News talk, as it is referred to in the business, certainly has a place in the radio spectrum, but I believe that to a large extent this niche is being filled by CBC.

4769 Adding a commercial news talk format will, in all likelihood, draw some audience from CBC, but not in an amount that will make the new station particularly efficient.

4770 It is also a little tough to challenge a brand as strong as CBC, especially when it comes to the news coverage.

4771 I would have to guess that an all news talk format, regardless of the strengths of the parent company, would be perceived by consumers as a second choice.

4772 And in public affairs, public relations, this is not the place you want your message heard, necessarily.

4773 On the other hand, increased news coverage, in an entertainment based format would provide something not found in this market.

4774 Practically after 9 a.m. until about 4 p.m. in this market your only source for news updates on radio is, in fact, the CBC.

4775 Surely no one believes the people are only interested in news during the morning and late afternoon.

4776 So a format that might blend music with a high appeal and solid news, weather and information content will find a good audience base here.

4777 News talk formats do not work well as background entertainment and therefore they do not blend into all settings.

4778 News talk, when it is done well, can compel people to stop what they are doing and listen.

4779 It would be unlikely that this type of format would be part of an office environment or the chosen backdrop in a place of business.

4780 Whereas an entertainment format, however, can be enjoyed for longer periods of time and I believe if an adult contemporary station was licensed, the type of listeners that I am looking to reach, community leaders, decision makers, would finally have a choice in the radio spectrum.

4781 I make these comments based on anecdotal observations.

4782 A final comment, and perhaps another equally important reason that compelled me to ask to appear before you today, I, like many others that you have heard from, am a community volunteer.

4783 MBS has been an extremely supportive media organization to so many worthwhile organizations here in the local marketplace.

4784 I began my career at Neptune Theatre and then went on to the Childrens' Hospital, MBS was there many years ago to help us tell our story and promote our events. They are truly a part of our community.

4785 This year, as the IWK Childrens' Telethon celebrates its 20^th anniversary, MBS is still a part of that magnificent event, which serves children throughout all of the Maritimes.

4786 I served for a time on the United Way board; and again, MBS joined forces with us in support of our community.

4787 When I chaired Tall Ships 2000 media and public relations, as a volunteer MBS was keen and heavily involved media partner. Their interest, from a news coverage perspective, was excellent.

4788 I now serve as a volunteer to the QE II Hospital Foundation, the Arthritis Society and Mount St. Vincent University; and MBS is right there with us.

4789 They help improve the quality of research, health care, education and generally the quality of life for the people in our communities.

4790 So, I, along with many other people in the community, was overwhelmed by the unprecedented success of MBS's radiothon, which is mobilized only a few days following Hurricane Juan.

4791 The degree to which they were able to touch so many in this community and turn their stations outreach into support for the clean up and restoration of the Public Gardens is a testament to the degree to which they are embedded as part of our community here.

4792 If they want to expand their reach into this community through their application, I have no doubt that their formula will succeed. They are a part of their communities and we know them well.

4793 I, therefore, heartily support their application today; and I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my thoughts.

4794 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms McMillan.

4795 Your submissions just prompts one question on my part.

4796 You made reference to a notion of a music format as background music in an office environment.

4797 Is it your opinion, given your experience, that ads are as effective or are effective when radio is used as background music in an office environment?

4798 MS McMILLAN: My perspective was from not an advertising one, not paid media, if you will. It was from the news, the reporting of the news.

4799 So I do not know if I have answered your question, but my relationship with MBS is as a volunteer and as a media relations person and not as someone who purchases air time.

4800 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your submission.

4801 Mr. Secretary?

4802 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4803 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Terry Kelly.

4804 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, Mr. Kelly.

INTERVENTION

4805 MR. KELLY: Thank you. And if you ever need renovations done, I will be there to do them for you!

4806 I am here today, I sit before you, Mr. Chair and members of the Commission, to speak on behalf of the Maritime Broadcasting application.

4807 I come to you as a singer, songwriter, as an entertainer, as a part-owner of a small, independent record company as well as a promotions company. I have been in the music industry for 30 years now.

4808 I would like to speak to you from my perspective, personally, from a perspective of my peers in the music industry, from the perspective of the community at large, as well as the listening audience.

4809 When I say "community", I mean in terms of what does on in our community and then the listeners next.

4810 A little story.

4811 I was given, at the age of 6, an accordion. And my dad said to me, he said "Terry, this is a gift that you are being given," it was a friend of the family had give it to me. He said, "when you are given a gift, it is important that you make use of it."

4812 That lesson has been with me all my life, and I have been blessed with many teachers, mentors, parents -- only two parents -- coaches. And I have been blessed in many ways that way.

4813 My knowing and my appreciation of gifts being given to me has always been an important role in my personal growth.

4814 So I began to play the accordion and throughout my school years I was a member of a number of different bands. At the age of 18 -- 17, 18 years old -- my band members and me decided that we wanted to make a recording.

4815 Wouldn't it be nice to have a recording?

4816 So we made a recording and we trotted off down to the CHFX Country 101 at the time, and hoped that our record would be played.

4817 We met a wonderful gentleman who advised us that, "you know, boys, this is lovely, this is in a demo form," really, he said to us. He said, "but here are some things you can do, and I can put you onto someone who can help guide you in a way that you will be able to make a professional-sounding recording. Come back to us then and we will look at playing your music."

4818 What a wonderful thing that was.

4819 They took the time to sit down and talk to us, guide us to someone else in the industry, and off we went and followed the advice and took the gift that was given to us, and we made a recording. And lo and behold, our music was played.

4820 Ever since that time, all through my career, my music has been played by this organization.

4821 Many others, I can list many, many others, the likes of Rita MacNeil, Jimmy Rankin, Bruce Guthro; new artists, Riley Matteson. They have been nurturing, this company has been nurturing young artists, not just at the beginning, but all throughout their career. They are still playing my music.

4822 And it just occurred to me, in fact, last night that now, Terry, you could probably get your music played on the oldies station!

4823 So, from that perspective, this organization, part of their culture is to nurture those of us who are in the industry, not just at the beginning, but all the way through; and also to contribute to the community.

4824 For instance, as a business person, I end up being a volunteer in many situations and as you have already heard from a number of speakers previous to me, the phone simply has to be picked up and dialled to have Maritime Broadcasting to come in on a project as a volunteer themselves. Part of their culture, again, is to grow the community.

4825 From a listening perspective, this might be a little bit self-serving, but from a listening perspective and from a business perspective, I like and have not heard the James Taylor's and I like the Eagles and I like to hear Jennifer Warren. And when the release new albums now, they even get lost.

4826 To have a mainstream adult contemporary station in this market, where there is a significant number of potential listeners, it would serve a good purpose.

4827 And, because of the nature of my music, it would also give me and others in my industry an opportunity to have their music played as well. Even the likes of Rita MacNeil gets very little airplay in this market now, because of the demographic.

4828 So, as I sit here and think about this and I think about how I love to listen to music and as you have already heard, I like to listen to news as well.

4829 And I know that the commitment that Maritime Broadcasting has made regarding their commitment to news, not just in this area, because they have stations right across the Maritimes where they can not just go on the word of someone else, they can connect with their news people in any city, many, many towns across the Maritimes and bring it straight to Halifax for people who are interested in that sort of thing. And, because it is such a movement of people from different parts of the Maritimes to this area, people who come here can always be in touch with home.

4830 So they are well set-up. They have been here for many years.

4831 What they say, they mean; what they say, they will do; and it is not speculation, this is all on track record.

4832 So, just to recap, from my perspective, as a business person, as an entertainer, I know that it gives me an opportunity to have a platform to spread my music across this country, around the world, as well as my peers.

4833 They are community-minded, they care about what goes on, it is in their best interest, it is in all our best interests; and from a listening perspective, they will cover a demographic, if given this license, to serve a very significant number of people.

4834 I thank you.

4835 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

4836 I suspect if you cannot get your music played at oldies, you could have a successful career as a stand-up comic!

--- Laughter / Rires

4837 MR. KELLY: I will keep that in mind!

4838 THE CHAIRPERSON: We do not have any questions. Thank you, very much.

4839 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. Darrell Blenus.

INTERVENTION

4840 MR. BLENUS: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.

4841 My name is Darrell Blenus, I am president of Blenus Travel, we have been operating a business here since 1961.

4842 I am appearing before you today to voice my support for Maritime Broadcasting's application for a new mainstream adult contemporary station.

4843 As a consumer, I can confirm that I like the format they are proposing.

4844 I would personally enjoy listening to the artists they would play and be pleased with the news content that may be available.

4845 Critically more important to me at the moment, and the key reason I asked to appear, is that the new adult format will provide a much needed outlet for advertisers in this market.

4846 I am a radio advertiser, I have been buying radio campaigns for 20 years to support our three travel agency locations in the Halifax and surrounding market.

4847 I believe in the power of radio and its unique ability to offer products to target markets on a timely basis.

4848 Unlike large television audiences, I believe radio's strength lies in the fact that not all formats appeal to all people.

4849 It is relatively easy to determine the audience profile for each station and even easier to determine which one suits the market you may wish to reach.

4850 However, let me tell you how radio's real advantage can be squandered.

4851 Some time ago, someone came up with a brilliant idea to package groups of stations together for sales purposes. So while you may want to buy a campaign that reaches people under 45 years of age, the only radio package you can buy, for example, also includes stations with music and formats that are listened to by people more than 50 years of age or older. This may be good sense from a broadcaster's perspective, but as an advertiser, I have to make a tough choice to pay for a whole lot of people who will never do business with me; or in the worse case, miss an entire market. This sums up what happens today in the Halifax area.

4852 The largest radio group in Halifax is Metro Radio Group and from audience numbers I see, they would pretty much be a must buy.

4853 They certainly have the station with the largest audience share; and if you want your commercials heard on their C100, you also generally have to accept an ad package, including other stations in the group, or purchase one station at a premium.

4854 Frankly, this is not always a problem. There are occasions, however, when I want a broader market to hear my product offering from Blenus Travel. But very often, not the case.

4855 There are times when the format of Maritime Broadcasting System stations also fit well into my plans, but given that I have to buy an entire package of stations from MRG, rather than just the one I want, I simply have no choice to exclude, in some cases, Maritime stations off the campaign.

4856 However loyal the audiences may be at Oldies 96 or Country 101, I only have a limited budget to reach my market.

4857 I do accept the evidence that they have unique, unduplicated audiences.

4858 The fact is, if I buy the maritime stations, I will be forced to take a package at MRG, which means I overspend the campaign.

4859 I believe this is common with other small businesses, which are the heart of the business culture in Nova Scotia.

4860 I believe small businesses, such as mine, need the option of purchasing radio advertising on the basis of what we require for a market segment, rather than settling for what they want to sell.

4861 However, until something is done about the competitive imbalance in the marketplace, we still continue to make tough choices, considering even if radio will be part of our campaign in the future.

4862 I believe the way to resolve the selling practises is for the Commission to license and consideration providing strong competition in the market.

4863 In consideration of Maritime's application with a new license, they will have more air time to sell, be in a better position to fill in advertiser's needs; and along with the new format, which will give good audience, they can expand the clients they serve.

4864 This is about competition in the market and not simply adding a new station and add inventory.

4865 Maritime Broadcasting has worked hard for my business over the years, and I am not saying that other stations have not. I especially commend Nancy Hilchie for the excellent service they provide.

4866 Granted, they do not have the strongest stations in the market in all demos, but from my experience and what I hear, they do have an excellent product offering.

4867 If the Commission were to award the license to MBS Radio, I believe advertisers will now have a real choice and an effective alternative.

4868 I do not have an axe to grind with any competitors to Maritime Broadcasting.

4869 As I said in the outset, I am a believer in the power of radio advertising and my interest today is to give consideration to balancing the buying of advertising time in the local market.

4870 I am not the only travel agent operation in town, and having good quality competition means my focus stays to our customer.

4871 I think what works well in our industry would also work well in this situation.

4872 The Commission should license a strong competitor that would result in the advertising consumer having some say in what they purchase, and how they buy for the desired campaign.

4873 With a better balanced radio sales market in Halifax, all of us can be assured that the customer, in this case the advertisers, will remain long-term users of radio ad time.

4874 Thank you for your time and consideration.

4875 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Blenus.

4876 Just one question with respect to your point about MRG and should Maritime be licensed.

4877 Would that mean in your case, and perhaps in some of the others that you referred to "the other small businesses", that you would advertise on the new Maritime station instead of MRG altogether; or would it mean that you would perhaps advertise on the new Maritime station and it might strengthen your bargaining position with MRG so you would perhaps advertise less there?

4878 MR. BLENUS: I think my point was that it is a competitive nature, so until the station is there, I guess I would have to see how it is all going to fold out and what type of packages.

4879 There seems to just be an imbalance at the current time to go to the market and perhaps negotiate those types of things, because of the two unduplicated audiences.

4880 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

4881 MR. BLENUS: Thank you.

4882 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Ms Karen Oldfield.

INTERVENTION

4883 MS OLDFIELD: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Commission panel members.

4884 My name is Karen Oldfield and I am appearing here today both as the president and CEO of Halifax Port Authority and also as a long time community volunteer in the City of Halifax.

4885 Let me start by talking a little bit about my role with the Halifax Port Authority.

4886 By way of background, the HPA is a government business enterprise which is a Canadian Port Authority and mandated under legislation to lead in the development of the Port of Halifax.

4887 We are also mandated to function as a financially self sustaining organization. Therefore, we receive no dollars from any level of government, including the Government of Canada.

4888 The point there is that today the Port Authority operates very much like a business, and in that regard we have a lot of interaction with partners and business partners in the community to further our corporate and strategic goals.

4889 With our current role, the HPA is becoming much more active in our local community, both with respect to Port business, but also in supporting local community initiatives.

4890 In one of our corporate values at the HPA, which is shared by both our employees and also our board of directors, is the desire to give back to the community.

4891 The Port is an economic engine in this city and by working with partners, we can harness the success of the Port and also benefit the local community.

4892 Let me give you a few examples.

4893 Within the past year, the Port Authority has supported the Discovery Centre, Theodore Tugboat, the Greater Halifax Partnership; and most recently, the restoration of the Public Gardens after Hurricane Juan this past fall. It is on this last community initiative that the HPA was involved with Maritime Broadcasting System.

4894 As you have heard, practically every Halidonian, and most businesses were impacted in one way or another by Hurricane Juan and our public parks were hit particularly hard.

4895 HPA believes that Maritime Broadcasting System demonstrated tremendous community leadership in a very quick response to the hurricane's devastating impact on the Public Gardens.

4896 Their effort to rally support for the restoration of the park was impressive. So we did applaud the radiothon and a decision was made in our organization to financially and emotionally support that community endeavour.

4897 Leaving aside my experience with Maritime Broadcasting as an HPA partner, I would also like to speak for a moment as a community volunteer in Halifax; and I would like to speak to one specific in respect of which I have worked with MBS.

4898 I am a member of the board of governors at St. Mary's University, and in this capacity, I chaired the 2003 St. Mary's University House Lottery. MBS has been a key media partner for that particular fundraiser since its inception. In 2003, MBS was the premier media partner.

4899 The fundraiser has grown very substantially over the years and that is in large part due to the important support of MBS.

4900 Last year we had a record year, we raised over $500,000, which in this market, for that particular kind of community initiative, is very impressive.

4901 So, as both CEO of the Halifax Port Authority and as a community volunteer, I applaud MBS for its community spirit that they have shown in Halifax over the past number of years.

4902 Thank you.

4903 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms. Oldfield, for your presentation this morning. We have no questions.

4904 Mr. Secretary?

4905 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4906 The next intervention will be presented by Nations in a Circle, Kathy Legge.

INTERVENTION

4907 MS LEGGE: Thank you and good morning, Mr. Chair and Panel. Thank you for the opportunity to present to you today.

4908 I coordinate a native Canadian art festival. We are one of the few festivals in Canada, especially in the Atlantic region, we are about it. We are a not for profit society. We have been in existence for, well, we are looking at our fourth festival coming up this September.

4909 Initially, I went to Global Television and asked for media support.

4910 The reason I went to Global is that they were the only ones that had an artistic diverse presence on television; and I thought that they would be a good fit. As a result, they have been a wonderful partner.

4911 They have been with us the whole time.

4912 They run ads for Nations in a Circle and they also feature a number of our artists. I will just give you a little anecdote. One of our artists, local, Miq' Maq gentleman has an ad on and he recently was able to sell a piece of artwork to someone in Vancouver. They had seen an ad, mind you on satellite, but he also, I believe, because of this presence, now has a piece in the Smithsonian.

4913 Global plays a very important role in promoting the diversity of -- especially of First Nations in this region. We are a small group, but the aboriginal community has been so under served for so long there are some extremely talented people, artists, musicians, performers and Global has given the opportunity to help to promote people from our community.

4914 I recently had the opportunity to attend a conference in Montreal with Rendezvous Folk and with the Exposed Root Conference. I was delighted to be asked and has the opportunity not only to see aboriginal people perform in professional venues, but also new world music. And after that experience appreciating even more diversity and the talent, I was so impressed.

4915 The fact that Global is applying for radio that will represent a cross-section of these groups, I was delighted to be here today.

4916 Global has helped us in some marketing strategy, they have been great to work with and it was an honour for me to be here today to say something about Global Television.

4917 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentation.

4918 I think Commissioner Cram might have a question.

4919 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Ms Legge.

4920 I was just wondering, you said you approached Global because they -- I think you said they fit with your artistic ideas and they were diverse.

4921 MS LEGGE: They represented diversity in that the reason I went to them is that they had representation of Haida carvings on -- when they ran -- this is Global Television, their flyers. And I went, "nobody else is doing that", so that is why. They get it.

4922 COMMISSIONER CRAM: "Their flyers", what do you mean?

4923 MS LEGGE: You know, they run spots --

4924 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They are public service announcements?

4925 MS LEGGE: Just a representation that they were showing Global Television and it was an ad for Global, but they showed some of the artwork from the west coast.

4926 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

4927 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. André Bourgeois.

INTERVENTION

4928 MR. BOURGEOIS: Good morning, Commissioners. My name is André Bourgeois, I am a Halifax-based artist manager, I work in the music business, I represent recording and touring artists internationally.

4929 With me today is Mia Rankin, one of my management clients is recording and touring artist, Jimmy Rankin; and Mia is Jimmy's business partner and wife and a big part of his business and career from day to day.

4930 Mia is going to say a few words first and then I will follow that up.

4931 Mia?

4932 MS RANKIN: Good morning.

4933 The commitment of The Breeze to play 40 percent Canadian content, including light jazz, folk and Celtic music, broadens the scope of Canadian music and artists that broadcasting outlets in Halifax will support and listeners are exposed to.

4934 There is listener demand for category three music, and by incorporating this type of music into their regular music rotation, The Breeze fills that demand.

4935 The Breeze will provide a wider commercial outlet and listener demographic for this type of music, which currently does not exist.

4936 I would like to tell you about our experience in obtaining Halifax radio play for Jimmy Rankin and his particular brand of eclectic folk pop rock. It has been a challenge.

4937 While we appreciate that Country 101.5 has been a loyal supporter of Jimmy's various singles, not all of the songs on Jimmy's record fit the country format.

4938 In fact, we recently released a single which was re-mixed specifically for AC radio.

4939 Yet, in Halifax it has been difficult to find an outlet for Jimmy's music beyond country radio.

4940 He has many songs that are softer and melodic, songs that will fit The Breeze's format perfectly.

4941 Right now, these songs receive little to no air play on radio in this market.

4942 We need the opportunity to reach a broader demographic that The Breeze can provide.

4943 It will provide support to Jimmy Rankin and many more artists who are deserving of radio play that do not necessarily fit into the particular programming guidelines or categories that currently exist at Halifax radio.

4944 There is listener demand in Halifax for this easy listening sort of category three music.

4945 I know that The Breeze will find a large audience in Halifax, therefore we strongly support the approval of a broadcasting license for this radio station.

4946 This is an important issue for us, Jimmy Rankin and our company, a local Indie record label, as our livelihood depends on it.

4947 Thank you for the opportunity to share my opinions and experience with you today.

4948 I turn it over to André.

4949 MR. BOURGEOIS: Thank you, Mia.

4950 I will just explain a little bit about myself and what I do.

4951 I am an artist manager, it is all that I have ever done my entire adult professional life. I have had and have a variety of clients.

4952 I managed Natalie MacMaster for seven or eight years. I have worked with hard-rock bands that have toured all over the world with major label deals.

4953 Some of my current clients include, of course, Jimmy Rankin; as well as an artist from Ontario, Robert Michaels, an artist that The Breeze would be perfect to support.

4954 I have lived and worked away.

4955 I moved back here and started working here in 1995 and Halifax is a changed market as far as radio goes.

4956 I do not really have a prepared speech, by the way, I am just going to talk about my experience and what I do.

4957 It has become a market where artists, singer, songwriter, it does not matter whether they are independent or have a major label deal, whether they are American or Canadian, but for our purposes today, we will focus on artists from here.

4958 There really is not anywhere for them to go.

4959 As Mia outlined, almost by default, artists who are of a folk/rock nature or song writing nature or just do not fit in the pop/rock format or country format, almost by default, are going to the country format.

4960 We have got a classic rock station, C100 is doing the same sort of thing, I think, that we have seen MuchMusic do where once MuchMusic years ago played the Rankins.

4961 Now it is very, very young, very hip-hop, very dance and MuchMoreMusic has become the AC radio of the video world in Canada.

4962 Halifax is a microcosm of that.

4963 We have got our AC, CHR station that keeps getting younger and younger and younger. It used to be only in the evenings, it used to be only on weekends, but now it is the drive home, it is the morning drive they are playing all of the youngest, hippest stuff. Which is great, and that is obviously represented in this market.

4964 Obviously, we have representation on the country side and CBC does what it does and so on and so on. But what we do not have right now, that we used to have, is a place for artists like Lenny Gallant, Jimmy Rankin, Bruce Guthro, Natalie MacMaster, Barra McNeils, Ennis Sisters -- I could keep going -- to comfortably fit where their listeners would tune regularly.

4965 Not all Jimmy Rankin fans are country music fans, so it is one thing to have a Jimmy Rankin single played on the country music station in this market, but are Jimmy Rankin fans going to listen to that station regularly? I do not know.

4966 Same goes, if we are fortunate enough through the course of doing radio edits and re-mixes and so on, to get a Jimmy Rankin single on a pop CHR station. Again, mission accomplished to an extent, but again, are his listeners going to be listening regularly.

4967 Are they going to endure Eminem and Beyonce and so on and so forth?

4968 I do not think so.

4969 Something else, I guess, that speaks to the void, a need in the market, is that if you look at a lot of the artists that I am talking about, they can sell out a venue in this market to people in this market a soft-seat theatre market. They can sell out a venue that holds 1,000, 1,100 people, paying $30 - $40 a ticket. Those people are people that live here and are willing to spend the money.

4970 They are also selling more records in this market than a lot of the top con artists on a lot of those stations, the American artists and so on. So there are people here willing to spend the money; there are people here willing to listen to the music, go see it live and so on and so forth, but they do not really have somewhere that they can comfortably dial in and hear the music that they want to support and spend their money on.

4971 Conversely, a lot of the artists that are played on some of these other stations, if they were to come to this market and perform live, I think the market share would be evidenced by them probably playing a small club to 2, 3, 400 people who might be spending 12 - $15 to go see them.

4972 So, there is a need, there is definitely a whole in the market that was no always there, again, it is a changed market over the last 10 years or so.

4973 And I think that -- you know, I have heard people -- I have never done this before -- I have heard people come up here and talk about the good things the companies have done and I am sure all of the companies have done good things and so on.

4974 I guess I am not speaking to any of that, I am just saying that from a music standpoint, from a music listeners standpoint, from a music consumers standpoint, there is a need in this market for a station like this to support artists from here and accommodate the needs of consumers and fans who already exist here.

4975 Thank you for listening to me.

4976 I would be happy to answer any questions.

4977 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think Mr. Langford might have a question or two.

4978 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, I think I have been waiting for you to come along all week, actually.

4979 One of the things that the geezers up here struggle with is to try to figure out the niches, the categories we call them.

4980 And you have described and your colleague has described the problem with Mr. Rankin's music, because it seems to fall into at least two, one country and the other maybe easy listening, maybe soft adult contemporary.

4981 We have had a number of people come to us at this hearing and say "look, there are more than enough stations in the kind of 35 and above category; there is almost nothing underneath. But there is more than enough and all they have to do is rejig their formats a little," they talk about bleed that the formats are so close that some play lists are almost identical even though they call themselves a different format.

4982 I guess what my question to you is, without in any way trying to take away from your clear support this afternoon for the applicant of your choice, and that is clear, I do not have to ask you about that, I know exactly what you are saying.

4983 But is there room for Jimmy Rankin's music in some of the existing stations with just a little twinging?

4984 Do you really need a whole new station with all of the plus 35 demographic stations that exist today?

4985 MR. BOURGEOIS: I think I touched on that.

4986 Again, if you go specifically to Country 101 in this market, it is branded as a country station. And I can take it beyond Jimmy Rankin -- again, the other artists I mentioned, Lenny Gallant, Bruce Guthro, Ennis Sisters and so on and so forth, you ask their people or ask them themselves and they are not country, purely country artists. They are singer/songwriter, they are folk artists and so on and so forth.

4987 And from a career standpoint, quite frankly, as a Canadian recording and touring artist, being branded a country artist can be a very dangerous thing. Again, purely country, appreciate the support that we get in this market and all markets from that format, but at the same time hesitate to swear allegiance to it.

4988 Again, I do not know that the listeners want to -- that is the fans of these various artists, I do not know that they have the patience or endurance or the care to listen to a country station full-time.

4989 If you spent some time here listening to the other extreme, in this case C100, again, go back 3 or 4 years ago, it was not a stretch to hear Bruce Guthro, maybe Natalie MacMaster, the Rankins, Jimmy Rankin on that station.

4990 But it has gotten -- you know, it is by degrees, it has gotten younger and younger and it is just -- what happens is they work very hard, obviously, and spend a great deal of money on establishing a brand and there is a reason for that, so people perceive them to be this. That is what they are tuning in for.

4991 It takes a long time to deconstruct that, so that is why I say simply adding, saying "yes, okay, we will play some Jimmy Rankin music on our station, great," that is only one level of accomplishment because again, they have a lot more money than we do and they spend a lot more money on establishing a brand. That is what you are working against, is the 42 year old housewife who just loves Jimmy Rankin or loves Natalie MacMaster or the Barra McNeils or what have you, is not going to tune into C100 necessarily to listen to that because they have been very successful, in fact they have been establishing a brand that plays, you know, again, Beyonce, Eminem, whatever the current thing is.

4992 So, it would help, certainly. I am not going to say no that is a waste of time, it would help, but it does not necessarily solve the problem.

4993 I think everybody needs to look at what the stations are and are not doing and when and how they are doing it.

4994 MS RANKIN: I do not think they would tweak to the extent, as well, of bringing in -- adding instrumental artists to their play lists, necessarily, like Natalie MacMaster or Robert Michaels.

4995 MR. BOURGEOIS: Sure. And Robert Michaels is a good example. I am going to assume that none of you are familiar with him, but he has got gold and platinum records. And again, like Jimmy, he sells out soft seat theatres where people are laying down some serious money for a concert ticket and it is just not the same as going to a club and paying 10 bucks and having a few beer.

4996 So there is a serious audience there, but radio is a challenge for an artist like that, people are buying records, people are buying concert tickets, so on and so forth, visiting websites, there is obviously a viable career there, has a major label deal; but there is really, other than CBC and the scattered play here and there in and out of a news broadcast, there is really no radio format for an artist like that either.

4997 Here, regionally, I think in Canada there is no other region that has as much viable together professional instrumental music that belongs on the radio.

4998 I think if you looked at what people are selling of CD's there are lots of people who are selling 5, 10, 15,000 copies of their CD's independently and they are primarily instrumental artists.

4999 So again, you have got people here in this market that are willing to lay down 15 to $20 to buy a CD or buy a concert ticket for more, it only follows that they would want to hear the music they love and they are willing to spend their hard earned money on the radio waves.

5000 I do not know, it would take one heck of a creative radio programmer to fit that into, again, what has been branded here, that's all.

5001 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So the niche really is a serious hole --

5002 MR. BOURGEOIS: I think there is a void, yes.

5003 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

5004 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have one more general question, actually, since you are here and you are obviously a professional in this business.

5005 We know that in a general sense CD sales, notwithstanding the comments you have just made, in a general sense have somewhat plummeted, it is probably not an exaggeration to say that, in the past few years.

5006 n fact, to the point where if the trend were to continue at the rate it is going, the recorded music business could be in serious trouble in this country and elsewhere.

5007 That is largely attributed to one factor, simply the, in my opinion, the gross high price of CD's relative to the cost, that is part of the problem. It is the record producers who get a lot of that money, not the artists.

5008 But also, the influence of the Internet, downloading to CD burners and now MP3 players and Ipods and so on.

5009 In that respect then, I would appreciate your opinion, either one of you, in terms of the continuing role in radio when we see some artists now more and more relying on the Internet for release of music and for the youth market and that youth works through the various age categories the demographics we have been talking about all week, what that is going to do to the role of radio and music, in your opinion?

5010 MR. BOURGEOIS: I do not think that the role of radio, when one stands back from a recording artist trying to not only establish, but more importantly in my mind, maintain a career; and you look at all of the different engines that make that run: you have got your retail, you have got touring, you have your press publicity PR, obviously distribution and affiliation with record companies and so on, obviously the creation of the music, but radio has always been a big part of that.

5011 What has happened is almost a defensive posture has been taken by many Canadian artists in that the thinking and it happens at the record company level now too, when dealing with Canadian domestic artists, they say "well, we have to do all these other things, we have to get a really good tour, we have to do effective publicity, we have to make sure we have got good distribution in place and so on and so forth, because we have to view radio as a bonus, icing on the cake."

5012 If we are so fortunate to do all these other things correctly and effectively and also are fortunate enough to get radio, then we are getting somewhere.

5013 It has gotten so difficult, none of you need me to tell you this, it has gotten so difficult to get original domestic music on the radio, for a long list of reasons, that what happened is it is almost like the unattainable girl at the dance, you know. It's just like I'll go to the dance, but I am not asking her to dance, she will never say yes.

5014 It is really like that. It is true.

5015 It is just you have got your scattered support and so on, but for a long list of reasons, because things have become so formatted, and so the walls are so high and thick between, it just does not quite fit our format.

5016 I will tell you right now that what I was told via my record company regarding Jimmy's single -- I am not trying to get it played or anything by saying this -- it is just we spent a few thousand dollars of our own money because of the nature of our deal to have it re-mixed for AC radio. It was also edited a lot of time, thought and work went into it and so on and so forth.

5017 We made a pretty expensive music video that has, in fact, fortunately enough, been added to MuchMoreMusic.

5018 But, okay, you have got a guy who wrote the songs for a band that sold over 2 million records, he lives here, his best fan base is here. He is next week playing the Rebecca Cohn, which is the biggest soft seat venue in this region. It will be sold out. And the station says "well, it is not quite -- we are getting younger and it is not really going to fit."

5019 I can take that, that is why, again, the posture I just referred to I have no choice, I have to take it, I have to find a way to sell that show out, I have to find a way to get records in the stores, do all the right press and so on and so forth.

5020 And that is their business, but again, it brings me back to my point. That is the real story, that is the real every day.

5021 On the other end of the spectrum, rather than this market Country 101 has been great for the same artist, but again, it is almost by default because he is not a core country artist.

5022 He is getting played there because they are supportive and because they will play him. But it is not the ideal format for an artist like that.

5023 Again, because you are seeking to get to your demographic, your fans and so on, and they are not all country fans.

5024 I hope I answered your question, but I think that radio does play and can and should play a more important role in maintaining and developing Canadian artists careers.

5025 I think because of this defensive posture sometimes it is just, okay, well, we have given up or like I say, it is like buying a lotto ticket.

5026 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to add anything Ms Rankin?

5027 MS RANKIN: I think that when the Rankins were breaking their big hit, Fare Thee Well Love, the radio formats across the board were a lot more open to their kind of music. And I think that made the difference between selling a few hundred thousand records and two million records.

5028 MR. BOURGEOIS: I can speak to that again. I was living at that time and working in Toronto.

5029 I remember -- you are all radio people -- Mix 99 in Toronto was playing Fare Thee Well Love by the Rankin Family.

5030 I am not sure that the equivalent station in that format, you know, just a little bit more than 10 years later, would play that song now.

5031 So, what happens?

5032 Do you sell 150,000 units or do you sell 600,000 units. And that is real, those are real numbers.

5033 We talked about starting careers and maintaining careers and job creation and so on and so forth.

5034 Little artists like Jimmy Rankin employ 7 or 8 people on the road full-time and employs me.

5035 We have a publicist based in Toronto and so on and so on.

5036 It is quite a revenue generator if you did a model and looked at how much we spent locally and nationally on advertising and then how much our record company, EMI, spends on stations in this market and others in advertising and so on, it is quite interesting, the butterfly effect is definitely at work there.

5037 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is great.

5038 Thank you for your presentation and appearance here today.

5039 Mr. Secretary, I think this may be a good time to take our morning break, so we will take our morning break. We will take our morning break and reconvene in 15 minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1035

--- Upon resuming at 1058

5040 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. Mr. Secretary?

5041 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, for the record, Intervention number 14, 16 and 17 of the agenda will be non-appearing.

5042 Our next appearing intervenor will be from Ed Matwawana.

INTERVENTION

5043 MR. MATWAWANA: My name is Ed Matwawana, I am a project leader for the Centre for Entrepreneurship Education and Development, here in Halifax.

5044 I am also a community developer, a recording artist and a performer.

5045 I am here in support of the application by Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures.

5046 I have been in Canada for over 20 years now, but about three years in the Moncton area and the rest, here in Nova Scotia.

5047 I must say that this is the first time I have heard of such a nobel initiative that has come to the forefront to begin and operate a radio station that will address the issues and success of "people of diverse cultures".

5048 This is a pleasure to hear such a thing and this is why I am supporting it.

5049 Ironically, many refer to us as visible minority, but in fact in the world of broadcasting, we are definitely invisible. So this type of radio will benefit many in our community who do not seem to have any voice at all.

5050 I work with many young people of various backgrounds and so on, many of them are immigrants and many of the issues that come up, I know, are never discussed and this could be a great medium to actually bring some of those issues to the forefront, especially in this region.

5051 Now, as a recording artist, the problem becomes even worse.

5052 There is a significant disproportion in our region as to what is really valid in the music industry, especially when it comes to what is considered East Coast music, not only by the music industry but I suppose by our government as well.

5053 Mr. Chairman, one only needs to see when music is played or when music is put forward when a region is being promoted.

5054 No disrespect to anybody, but I think most of the time the music has to have a fiddle in it to be considered from this region. And that is, I believe, it is usually in total disregard for anyone else out there who is producing music, and good music, coming from the heart.

5055 It is fascinating to see people come and they talk about the limitations but they think that you can see me, as an artist, as a recording artist, I have had a group, an African group in this region that has been very popular for the last over 10 years now.

5056 But it is fascinating to see a lot of people come and talk about their limitations as far as radio. Really, my limitations are far beyond that.

5057 Now, certainly CBC Radio has played my music. And I thank them for that.

5058 But CBC is also limited as to what they can do for me and my community and people in my community who are doing their music, expressing themselves, you know.

5059 I understand that in the last few years CBC cannot really play a song unless it is connected to a story.

5060 I remember many of the interviews I have done on CBC Radio, in fact, my last story has to be talked about before they play the song. I don't think they do that for Jimmy Rankin.

5061 Jimmy is a friend, no disrespect, but that is the reality.

5062 So it should be radio that can just play the music because it is good.

5063 I think it is important that we, as a country, we encourage that radio stations to value people's talents regardless what they are trying to say, as long as it is good and it speaks to the experience.

5064 So Kaleidoscope Community Radio would certainly contribute to making what is invisible visible, and will allow many in our communities to be heard and indeed feel proud to be a part of this Canada we consider a melting pot in which all cultures are supposed to be respected and valued.

5065 Thank you, very much.

5066 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Matwawana.

5067 Commissioner Cram has a question.

5068 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5069 Are you planning on volunteering with Kaleidoscope to work on this station?

5070 MR. MATWAWANA: If I am required to I will, volunteering is part of my life.

5071 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do you know of others who are considering volunteering?

5072 MR. MATWAWANA: I can find them. And I say that with confidence, I can find them.

5073 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, sir.

5074 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram; thank you, Mr. Matwawana.

5075 I was not aware that CBC had a requirement that any music played had to be related to the stories, there is a lot of music I hear on CBC not related to or if it is it is not evident to me.

5076 MR. MATWAWANA: I did not know, I just heard about it.

5077 And now, when I put 2 and 2 together, I understand why my life story is always asked about!

5078 So we need to check it out, but I understand that to put 2 and 2 together, it is always about my life story.

5079 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you again.

5080 Mr. Secretary?

5081 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next intervention will be presented by Emanuel Serra.

INTERVENTION

5082 MR. SERRA: Good morning.

5083 Hi, my name is Emanuel Serra, I am a working musician in the Halifax area, I work as a conductor, as a composer, these days mostly for choirs and solo vocalists and the classical music. Although, I have done a lot of work in the past few years in cross over and different world music requirements in concert settings and in film and television.

5084 I am wanting to give my support to the launching of this Community Radio station in Halifax by the Kaleidoscope Community Radio Society.

5085 I am an active -- as I mentioned, I am an active member in the local arts and community event scene, so I can tell you that the prospect of a new community focused community centred radio station would only magnify and enhance our already rich local cultural fabric by fostering a new wave of opportunity, competition and exploration in the area of programming.

5086 There is a patchwork of various outlets among the present radio media, which help to foster a regional community via radio, but this level of community interest is, in most cases, a peripheral interest to some other core programming approach, frequently just skimming what is going on here.

5087 I am lending my support today with particular enthusiasm for the potential to the CDVC to realize new opportunities for spoken word radio for visible and under served minorities thinking about health issues, legal issues and other contemporary topics, encouraging the voicing of perspective and interest which may on the larger carriers not make the critical mass criteria.

5088 One of the things I enjoy about living here in Halifax is the ability to go down on Sunday morning and have my ears saturated with great, rich polyphonic western-European musical architecture at St. Mary's Basilica and then get in the car on the way home and turn on the radio and be transported 4,000 miles east, listening to some of the middle eastern contemporary music available from CKDU.

5089 But the signal is impossible for me to get outside of the Dal. area and there is still an "unmet" need for programming or air time available to diverse ethnicities which can reach greater HRM.

5090 The appeal of such a station to grass roots initiatives is that it affords them a platform or a voice to take their work, as communities, to the public without having to persuade the mainstream media from which they would currently have to gain acceptance, about whether they have gained critical mass in the mainstream public consciousness.

5091 One stimulating possibility in the arts sector, at least in the vein which I work, would be perhaps a broadcast of some select examples from the various music camp concerts, which occur at the end of the summer.

5092 Some concerts which have produced high-quality performances and programming in both the years I have participated.

5093 Programs with mandates to give youth an opportunity for high-quality music making.

5094 Such a community radio station could be taken advantage of as a recruiting agent for such existing programs simply by virtue of exposing people to the great work that is happening.

5095 The prospect of a new community radio station with a mandate for exclusively local focus is exciting, not only because of the possibilities that would come with radio fixed on this area, but because it would also spur growth and improvement among the whole radio community of programmers endeavouring to get the local public involved in listening to matters pertaining to them, talk radio competition for the public's ear could only benefit us all.

5096 Thank you.

5097 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Serra.

5098 Let me put to you the same question that Commissioner Cram put to the previous.

5099 Were you here yesterday to hear Kaleidoscope's presentation?

5100 MR. SERRA: No, I wasn't.

5101 THE CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that Kaleidoscope is depending, for 95 percent of its operation, on volunteers?

5102 MR. SERRA: Yes, I was. I did not know it was 95 percent, but I knew it was going to be majority volunteer participation.

5103 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, in that respect then, have you been approached or would you be a volunteer in terms of the operation of the station or on-air personality, so to speak?

5104 MR. SERRA: No. I lend my support partly based on my experience with another station which attempted to -- at least when I was working with them to say the words that suggested a similar vision, but had an actual difficulty reaching the whole HRM.

5105 I used to be a volunteer show host on CKDU and I knew about the mandates there.

5106 So when I heard about this possibility, it was exciting because I thought here is what I had always hoped the work at CKDU would become, reaching -- except it would be able to reach the entire city rather than the Dal. area.

5107 So that is partly where I was coming from when I decided to lend my support to the application.

5108 THE CHAIRPERSON: But your support, I take it, is more as a listener than as a participant in it?

5109 MR. SERRA: Oh, yes, as a listener, yes.

5110 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5111 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5112 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. Adam Dowling.

INTERVENTION

5113 MR. DOWLING: Good morning to everybody on the Board.

5114 My name is Adam Dowling, I am a musician, a music producer. I am originally from Prince Edward Island, I have been living in Halifax for about eight years.

5115 I have had the opportunity to tour around the world, hear a lot of radio; I have heard a great deal of radio, and especially in Halifax I have had the opportunity to listen to the evolution of it here.

5116 I have to admit that there has not been any evolution of radio here that satisfies me, really.

5117 I am certainly a part of the artistic community here and I can say that there are some opportunities for local artists, certainly there are opportunities for those artists who are fortunate enough to have the backing of a large record company, a lot of support from management, agents and the like. That is not enough to serve a local community.

5118 I am very happy to listen to professionally recorded music with a lot of support behind it, but I know that there is a lot of talent here in the Maritimes and in Halifax, specifically, that just does not have enough opportunity to be heard.

5119 In my opinion, the current music market-specific stations here do not accurately reflect the Halifax listener population. And a community radio station can really assist that.

5120 So I am here to support the application that the CDVC has put in for Kaleidoscope community radio.

5121 Halifax is a city, needs to be able to support its own artistic communities.

5122 There exists a few opportunities and commendable as they are the stations such as Q104 and CBC, they do assist; that is appreciated. But there is only so much that they can do within their format and their mandates and I do understand that.

5123 There is such a vast talent base here, so many voices in the community, and Kaleidoscope will be able to assist in that respect.

5124 Now, while I would love to see an introduction of a radio station that only played my preferences of music and I could tune into it and leave it on and never have to touch the dial, that would be fantastic; it is not realistic, it is not even possible.

5125 I do know that myself and the rest of the artistic community here would very much support the introduction of the community radio station, one that is accessible, more accessible as an airwave and one that offers diverse programming.

5126 I like to hear different music. I do not want to be shovelled of all the same format all of the time. Maybe some people do.

5127 I am an artist, I am a musician, I am looking for a little bit more. I want to be shared music from people's collections or people's ideas and I want a diversity in the music.

5128 Format radio might appear to be effective, from an advertising standpoint, but I mean, frankly, it is squeezing the life out of the music industry worldwide. It is segregation of music, and that is not right, it is not helpful.

5129 An organization is necessary, but funnelling music through narrow and narrower pipes just serves to exclude opportunities for artists and excludes a shocking amount of music to people who may have enjoyed it if they were allowed to hear it.

5130 From a community standpoint, I feel Kaleidoscope would also shine.

5131 Current local commercial stations, they are always able to sponsor community activities, support relief initiatives and this is to be commended and something to be very proud of.

5132 Kaleidoscope can also offer a voice for many of the vibrant communities that exist in Halifax. This essentially creates the true voice of Halifax and not just one of a particular demographic.

5133 The CDVC already holds a relationship with the artistic community in Halifax, by having co-produced an annual variety music production with my group, MIR. This relationship extends to the technical community as well and allows Kaleidoscope access to what I feel is some of the world's best musical talent and technical talent.

5134 That being said, this brings me to an important point that I have been very eager to bring to your attention for some time.

5135 Regardless of genre, market format or demographic, the very basic technical quality of the medium of music that is being delivered over the airwaves today is slipping badly.

5136 Now, there are issues like storage bandwidth, ultimately cost reduction, that have led to the diminishing quality of the music that I am hearing. The main culprit here is the MP2 or MP3 format.

5137 Some years ago, the motion picture experts group designed a music compression format named MPEG, which is the acronym for the group. By their own description, the quality of the resulting audio need only be tolerable. I cannot tolerate it.

5138 It may be an efficient storage option and I understand that there is fiscal responsibilities for stations, but it just cannot be an acceptable option.

5139 People have spent a lot of time and money producing this music.

5140 Albums can cost $200,000, a million dollars, and for me to listen to a song that I know I have the CD, I know how good it sounds, over the airwaves sometimes I have heard music so poorly encoded that to me it sounds like sweeping broken glass over a floor. I am not happy about it.

5141 Now, I am a musician, I am also an audio engineer, perhaps I am a little more sensitive to this, but this is a trend and it is a backwards trend, and I do not want to see it go any further. I do not want the general public to become accustomed to a poor quality of music. I just wanted to bring that to your attention.

5142 As an engineer, as a musician, I, personally, am available to volunteer for Kaleidoscope radio.

5143 I can assist in the technical aspects, making sure that the programming sounds good, is produced well, is broadcasted well at a high quality.

5144 As a part of the community, I am available, willing to recruit what I feel is some of the best artistic talents and technical talents here in Halifax.

5145 Thank you.

5146 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dowling.

5147 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You answered my question.

5148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5149 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I did not give you any notice, but what kind of music is it that you play?

5150 Because we are always dealing here with "categories", so if you could just describe it in words?

5151 MR. DOWLING: This is the problem, the group that I play with, MIR, is not easily labelled. Some people say it has a European sound, that probably does not help you very much.

5152 It is pop music, I suppose, pop/rock. This is the problem, there is no MIR format, there is no Jimmy Rankin format.

5153 This is the problem, in my opinion.

5154 Formats are restrictive, exclusive, narrow and radio is not sharing enough music with listeners.

5155 A simple example of German radio, formats, although it is moving toward much narrower format radio, the joy of being able to turn on a station and hear a wide swath of music that would be impossible to hear, such as a large eclectic collection of styles on one radio station, that is wonderful. I was exposed to music I had not heard before. And in turn, I bought the CD. So this is, I think, is the problem.

5156 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

5157 MR. DOWLING: You are welcome.

5158 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. Donald MacDonald.

INTERVENTION

5159 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, very much.

5160 My name is Donald MacDonald and I am here in support for the Kaleidoscope, I guess you know what that is, that is the CRTC.

5161 But anyway, I agree with Kaleidoscope because it is going to have an outlet or an avenue for the disabled, which is a big thing in this community because a lot of disabled would like to be heard about issues which they cannot be heard about now.

5162 You go to a radio station, they'll say they do not have the air time. Or, they do not deal with the issue at present, so we get pushed aside, so to speak.

5163 So, I agree with this.

5164 And on top of that, it is going to be a diverse radio station, which is going to include a lot of the disabled which are from diverse cultures.

5165 My friend here, Sylvia, has something to day.

5166 Sylvia?

5167 MS PARIS: Thank you, very much.

5168 My name is Sylvia Paris and I want to thank you for providing the opportunity to bring testimony, and particularly for accommodating my participation today. I think there was, as they say, maybe some technical problems. So I am pleased to be able to be here.

5169 The introduction and implementation of this Kaleidoscope community radio will bring expanded media access to the broader Nova Scotia community, empower individuals who identify as racially, culturally and ethnically diverse; provide an opportunity for community voice and enhance the skills of the volunteers in the community who will participate with the programming.

5170 The Centre for Diverse and Visible Cultures, CDVC, submission notes, says that the product will be an alternative which will expand radio listening options within the city, offer an eclectic wide-ranging selection of music, as well as spoken word programming, sports, public affairs, education, health and other types of broadcast content relevant to the community.

5171 Focus on artists currently working outside the broadcast mainstream, with a specific emphasis on local and regional artists and events, strive to maintain close links with the community and between our volunteer programs and their listening audience make community radio accessible to all individuals and groups who contribute to Halifax's cultural community, offer a low-cost option for business and organizations to reach the community.

5172 I believe from the vantage point of an active community volunteer, it would be very useful to have the above points, their product focus, advanced.

5173 The overall focus on community assets and contributing to community growth will result in positive benefits far-reaching in terms of the ethnically, racially and culturally diverse community in the "mainstream community".

5174 I have had the opportunity to do volunteer work with CDVC. I have been involved with a number of their community support initiatives. Their endorsement of this initiative speaks positively to its potential for success.

5175 Within our province, as well as across Canada, there is commitment to create what we term as a "welcoming society".

5176 Often this is in reference to the immigrant or recent newcomer community, but also it extends to the existing communities, most notably African Nova Scotian communities and First Nation communities.

5177 Kaleidoscope radio FM would be situated to be both pro-active and responsive in the spirit of creating and maintaining a welcoming community.

5178 Often when we have some discussion about how good a job are we doing at being a welcoming community and how effective is that, I think we talk in terms of numbers and economic indicators. I think that may be limiting in terms of evaluating success.

5179 It has been pleasing for me to be around people who now are expanding that discussion and so are starting to look at the social context and social collateral, is sometimes the term being used as well.

5180 So, I would suggest that the potential associated with this radio station programming would be to help enhance the two aspects, actually, economic as well as social.

5181 And I will come back a bit to that when I reference some of the specific focuses of the programming.

5182 As we strive to find effective and efficient ways to educate the broader community, the medium of radio and a radio station with a focus on sharing information and inviting dialogue as it relates to diversity is a wonderful tool.

5183 There is much potential for collaboration, with like minded organizations and individuals who are active in the community.

5184 And I just want to focus on a few of their product focus points mentioned earlier and maybe give some examples that articulate how they can be of advantage.

5185 One, focus on artistic artists currently working outside the broader mainstream with a specific emphasis on local and regional artists and events.

5186 There is a real opportunity here for a partnership with again "mainstream" artists themselves and structures that support those artists. As well as groups that are focused on diversity in the context of ethnicity, race and culture.

5187 Most notably, there is a group established called the Multicultural Arts Resource Centre, and though I am associated with that group, I am not wearing that hat today, but I would suggest -- and given the comments from previous speakers as well -- there is a real opportunity there, that particular body seeks to be an opportunity, I guess, for artists to promote their work, to show their work.

5188 And as well as that structure itself, that structure currently is housed with Pier 21, which I suspect most people are aware is a national site which acknowledges our rich history of immigration.

5189 Second, strive to maintain close links with the community in between our volunteer programs and their listening audience.

5190 This structure and through its volunteer base has probably many facets to it.

5191 Of course, there are challenges and I think I have tried to acknowledge earlier that I think CDVC is up to that challenge.

5192 But it also provides an opportunity for people to gain new skills and hone their current skills.

5193 So, it is an opportunity for individuals to gain skills that may be used in economics in the marketplace, as well within their community to enhance other organizations that are involved and for personal growth as well.

5194 Second to last, make community radio accessible to all individuals and groups to contribute to Halifax's cultural community life.

5195 We talk about culture diversity and multiculturalism, there is often not discussion of the broader aspect of multiculturalism.

5196 All individuals have ethnicity, ethnicity is a definer of cultural diversity and multiculturalism.

5197 This radio station will acknowledge the total breadth of multiculturalism and culture diversity while simultaneously recognizing that there are populations of the multicultural community who are disenfranchised.

5198 Disenfranchised because they are part of an ethnic community not adequately valued by society and/or because of race or language.

5199 So I would suggest and support that it does have broad-reaching opportunity.

5200 In closing, I see education is part of my workday life and I see the opportunity for education to happen here as great.

5201 I think the participation of the individuals, as I indicated in terms of volunteers, but the listening community has the chance to be able to interact with this radio program being supported or suggesting particular programming and just being on the other end and hearing the information that will be transmitted from this program has great potential.

5202 I think it can be one of the pieces in the puzzle of pieces that we are trying to put together that address how do we really value and recognize that were are multicultural, multiethnic, multi-religious and so on society in all aspects of it.

5203 Thank you very much.

5204 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both for your presentation.

5205 Commissioner Langford?

5206 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you.

5207 I just wanted to ask a question which may sound a little tough, but I hope you can just take it on its face and help me with it a bit.

5208 I do not know if you were here yesterday for the presentation for the Kaleidoscope application, but certainly we saw a group that very much wants a radio station.

5209 And perhaps, depending on your viewpoint, I am not about to judge that, but I will just say perhaps to cover myself, deserves a radio station on the basis of issues and the work they are trying to get done, done.

5210 But the third aspect of it is the capacity to run a radio station, and that is what is very difficult to judge on a -- you know, an afternoon of listening to people and questioning them.

5211 Have you worked with this group closely in the past?

5212 MR. MacDONALD: No, I have not.

5213 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Either one of you?

5214 MS PARIS: I have. I have had the opportunity to be involved, actually, when two significant things were established.

5215 One was the work in terms of the refugees and so I saw the organizational capacity and "sustainability" aspects of that from CDVC able to pull people together, have us trained, have us, you know, be committed to our work.

5216 And the second piece of work that is going on is the work that was mentioned there in terms of MIR and the aspects of that initiative which brings the recording, musical artists together in the community.

5217 So it is an initiative for sustainability around fund acquisition, but is also a way, again, to share culture and diversity with the community.

5218 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And these are both on-going initiatives?

5219 MS PARIS: These are both on-going initiatives.

5220 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And they are moving smoothly and they are well-organized?

5221 MS PARIS: Yes. I did at one time set more policy around terms of the committee tables, I do not do that at this point. But so I can say that from that perspective.

5222 But from an observer, yes, they are both ongoing.

5223 And if I could ramble on for another second.

5224 I was not able to be here yesterday and I was not here a lot of the day, in case anybody is from my workplace, you know I am taking most of my lunch hour to be here.

5225 I must say my heart kind of beat a little faster when you asked the question or someone asked the question "Would you be willing to volunteer with the group?". And then I said to myself, why is your heart beating a little faster on that?

5226 I think the question is an interesting question, to say it, because for me, in my experience with other volunteer groups as well, is not so much having to say myself or someone will say "yes" or "no" in terms of the question would you volunteer, but understanding that the organization knows about capacity building, knows about who its community is and knows where to go for those supports.

5227 So if you ask me that question which you will not now, I know, but if the question was there -- I was trying to be humorous, missed the point -- anyway!

5228 If the question was there, my response would be kind of around it is a question of being able to say "yes" to the right question as opposed to being able to say "yes" to any question.

5229 I understand what my strengths are in terms of contributing and so from that point of view I will say I will contribute.

5230 It may be to be some kind of background thing.

5231 I do not see it as being the voice on the radio at this point. But I have the capacity to organize individuals together to be committed to do some work for a span of time.

5232 I think that is the other thing too, is to recognize we can talk about capacity and sustainability within a time frame as well as kind of on-going.

5233 I do not know how this structure works, you will hear it in these discussions, but I think the track record that the organization presents and its ability to go out to ask the community to support and get a positive response, again, depending on where people's strengths are, I think is kind of a supportive foundation piece of CDVC can bring.

5234 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think we agree with you and your comments are helpful.

5235 I think the questions, and my colleagues can speak for themselves, but basically we were presented with an application which depends almost entirely upon volunteer help.

5236 So it is a kind of rough meter that we are stuck with, trying to test, but over a very short period of time we are trying to assess whether the voluntarism is there.

5237 Because it is not the first month, you know, everybody is there the first month, and you must know that.

5238 All of us who have worked in the volunteer sector know that.

5239 It is the long slough day after day, month after month, year after year of getting all the tough jobs done. And it is hard.

5240 People's lives change, they get different jobs, they move away or they move to the suburbs, and all of a sudden it is a longer drive in and you have to train new people.

5241 So we are trying to get a sense of whether the capacity is there and whether the personnel needs will be met.

5242 MS PARIS: Yes. If I could, if I could give an example that might support that and I will go back to the refugee clinic discussions.

5243 When we were asked, we the volunteers were asked, to become involved, some of the points that you have addresses were addressed with us and I think it contributes to the success.

5244 How long are you going to be involved?

5245 What kind of support within our capacity do you need?

5246 What kinds of partnerships or -- whatever phrasing -- collaborations to go to help realize the continued success of the work, because there was a focus around the work of the initiative at that time.

5247 I think those kinds of things would be the same kind of discussion here.

5248 I think it is useful of people to look at that.

5249 You may be only identify a particular amount of time, but there is a cadre of people I think out there who can do that. So then it is a kind of an organizational piece.

5250 Sometimes, somebody will come to something and they will say would you be involved in this, chair this, whatever, it is not much work.

5251 Well, my response is then why do you want me!

5252 If you are not clear about what it is, but if you say to me it is two years and this is what it means, again, back to the example, that is how, you know, the invitation that works and I think that is part of why it worked.

5253 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.

5254 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

5255 Again, thank you both for coming here this morning, Ms Paris.

5256 Kaleidoscope could use some of your advice!

5257 MS PARIS: Thank you, very much.

5258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary?

5259 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5260 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Ms Dorothy Fenn.

INTERVENTION

5261 MS FENN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission.

5262 My name is Dorothy Fenn and I am here as a member of the community to speak in support of the application by the Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures on behalf of Kaleidoscope Community Radio Society.

5263 In my opinion, most of the information disseminated by radio stations is presented from the same perspective.

5264 I believe that Kaleidoscope Community Radio Society is an opportunity to offer information from different perspectives.

5265 The voices will not be mainstream voices.

5266 Individuals from other parts of the world and individuals from often unheard portions of local society will be given a platform to convey their points of view.

5267 Exposures to different perspectives benefit all of us.

5268 Having my paradigm challenged has allowed for my personal growth and broadened by view of the world and my view of Halifax.

5269 I believe the community at large can benefit from the same opportunities that Kaleidoscope Community Radio Society can present.

5270 In addition, their plans to educate and train people regarding radio production will offer opportunities to individuals that are not available though traditional channels.

5271 Let me say that I very rarely listen to radio because I cannot find a station that appeals to me.

5272 I turn the radio on for a weather forecast, but now I get that information from the internet.

5273 Often when I listen to mainstream radio news broadcasts, I am struck by the fact that my perspective of the world contrasts with the point of view expressed.

5274 Granting a license to Kaleidoscope Community Radio Station will turn a radio on in my home more often.

5275 With regards to whether or not I would volunteer with Kaleidoscope Community Radio Station, I would not initially volunteer with them probably over the period of the first two years because of other commitments that I presently have with my volunteer hours. But I know that I would volunteer with them at some point in the future.

5276 Thank you.

5277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Fenn.

5278 We do not have any questions for you.

5279 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, the next appearing intervention will be presented by Shams Tharani.

INTERVENTION

5280 MR. THARANI: I am Shams Tharani and with me is Bruce Anderson of Halifax, a resident of Pool East Record Pool, who will speak after me.

5281 I am the managing director at SPG Music.

5282 SPG is an independent dance and urban driven record label, in business for almost 12 years.

5283 The CD's produced by SPG are released through major retail chains like HMV, Wal-Mart, Sunrise, Music World and Costco.

5284 I am here to voice my support for the application for The Beat as proposed by CKMW Radio for the Halifax market.

5285 I believe in the format the company is proposing and I believe in the company support of Canadian performers.

5286 SPG Music is actually the third record company I have worked with. Before SPG I worked at Popular Records and Quality Music and Video.

5287 Through my work with all the three labels, I have seen first hand that this company is fully committed to supporting local Canadian artists.

5288 CKMW has supported artists and Canadian record companies in several ways.

5289 The company's Orangeville station definitely has an open door policy. I can go in and talk to the program director about new artists and about new releases.

5290 The station will add uncharted songs to their play list. They will have artists come into the studios for interviews. They help arrange live performances and help plug albums and concerts.

5291 To me, the Orangeville station is a great avenue to introduce and develop, promote Canadian talent.

5292 SPG specializes in putting together compilations and CD packages containing various artists.

5293 Much of SPG's releases are dance oriented music that receives little airplay in this country.

5294 However, the Orangeville station, owned by CKMW Radio, has always supported the music SPG produces and releases.

5295 Since our songs are constantly played on the station, most of our sales are in southern Ontario. To me, this proves that air play and support of our artists on a radio station like the one in Orangeville, equates into album sales.

5296 I have been involved in the release of new music from a number of Canadian artists. It was the Orangeville station that broke the songs when no other station would play them.

5297 The Canadian artists helped by CKMW include Sean Desmond, Soul Decision, Joee, Alisa, Heat and Biggs.

5298 Through their Orangeville station CKMW radio has played an important role developing and supporting Canadian talent.

5299 Unfortunately, much of this talent has not been recognized in other parts of the country because there is no outlet for music on this radio.

5300 SPG does release this music to Halifax, to the DJ pools for play in dance clubs. This results in modest sales in Halifax, but we feel strongly that a dance/urban station in Halifax would result in major exposure for many new Canadian dance artists.

5301 Even with only club play, the Halifax region is the sixth in the country for some of our company's record sales.

5302 Since no radio station in Halifax is now playing dance and urban, having a radio station support this music would greatly increase our sales in this region and it would benefit many Canadian recording artists.

5303 I have watched Canadian talent in southern Ontario benefit from the power of radio support over the past 10 years.

5304 Independent artists, like Sean Desmond, Joee and Soul Decision, were first played and supported by the Orangeville station and no other station would add their songs.

5305 The airplay on the station, the station's events and the concerts expose these local artists. Eventually, other radio stations took note and began to play their songs.

5306 Then major record labels signed these acts and invested a lot of money in their careers.

5307 Now, these artists have reached international star status.

5308 I think it is very important that Halifax have a radio station that caters to the youth in the community.

5309 It is my experience from the record industry that urban dance music is without a doubt the music of the Canadian youth demographic.

5310 Without exposure to this music, Halifax youth would not be exposed to the same music and culture as the youth in other Canadian cities.

5311 I am certain that the station CKMW proposes for the Halifax market will produce the programming that it will meet the evolving needs radio listeners in the area.

5312 It will also mean new critical support for Canadian performers, both from this area and from across Canada.

5313 From my experience, there is no doubt radio helps Canadian talent.

5314 The type of station CKMW Radio is proposing helps even more because of its programming mix of live shows, fundraisers, festivals and promotions.

5315 CKMW has shown me that they care about Canadian talent, they welcome new talent, they play the songs that have not made it into the charts. That is why I am here today.

5316 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to appear today in support of a broadcaster who supports Canadian talent.

5317 Bruce?

5318 MR. ANDERSON: Good morning. My name is Bruce Anderson and I am here today in support of CKMW's application.

5319 I am the owner and president of Pool East Record Pool, which is located here in Halifax and has been in operation since 1985.

5320 My company provides distribution and promotion of dance and urban releases for the major and independent record labels in Canada.

5321 We serve as Atlantic Canada's key disc jockeys in nightclubs with promotional vinyl and CD product. Currently we have between 150 and 200 clients in this territory.

5322 The job of the record pool DJ is to play and promote new dance and urban releases to their crowd at their prospective night club.

5323 The payoff comes when those customers hear the music and in turn go out and buy those tracks at retail stores.

5324 In cities like Montreal and Toronto, there are radio stations who also play these formats and provide an important support role to the DJ pool system.

5325 In Halifax, unfortunately, we don't have that.

5326 There are three important factors involving creating a hit dance or urban record.

5327 They are the record label, the DJ's and the supporting radio stations.

5328 I believe that such a station would help stimulate record sales and promote new jobs and growth within the DJ and artist community here in Halifax.

5329 Today, we are facing times of declining sales in a music industry that is struggling.

5330 My job at Pool East could be greatly helped if there was a radio station in Halifax that played new dance and urban releases.

5331 Until now, local radio stations have made little effort to play these formats, despite their huge popularity with public listeners.

5332 To be honest, I feel that the younger generation of listeners has never been fully supported by radio stations in Halifax.

5333 I have been working in the Halifax club scene since 1982 and have been a veteran club DJ for over 20 years.

5334 I am here to support the bid by CKMW because I strongly feel that CKMW's proposed format of urban dance top 40 and rock is the one format that has really been missing here in Halifax until now.

5335 I have also seen the proposed formats put forth by the other 10 applicants.

5336 I feel only CKMW has really hit the bullseye about what Halifax needs at radio.

5337 I have always been impressed with the great job they have done at Z103.5 in Toronto; it is one of my favourite stations, I actually listen to it on the internet. They have a wonderful record of working with key DJ's, nightclubs and artists in the local community. Their team has inspired me with their desire and genuine enthusiasm to see this proposal succeed. They have made this 42 year old DJ feel like he is 20 again.

5338 I am excited and proud to support their goal of giving the young people of Halifax what they really want to hear on radio.

5339 In closing, I would like to say to the members of the Board what an exciting opportunity that we are given here today.

5340 I ask you to please grant a bid to CKMW to start a station here in Halifax, in doing so you would be creating healthy radio competition, you would also be providing the younger generation with a programming that they have only been dreaming of for so long.

5341 From a personal standpoint, I think it would really help me in my job of promoting dance and urban music here in Halifax.

5342 It would also ensure future employment for the DJ's in my record pool and provide a much needed boost to retail sales for the label that I work for.

5343 Thank you.

5344 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to both of you.

5345 Mr. Anderson if you think it is a struggle for a 42 year old to feel 20, imagine what it is like when you are 59!

--- Laughter / Rires

5346 Thank you to both of you.

5347 Mr. Secretary?

5348 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5349 The last appearing intervention will be presented by Awesome DKD Incorporated, Mr. Asim Awesome Awan.

INTERVENTION

5350 MR. AWAN: Good morning Honourable Chair and Commissioners.

5351 THE CHAIRPERSON: Somebody might take issue with whether it is honourable or not!

--- Laughter / Rires

5352 MR. AWAN: First of all, I would like to thank you for awarding me the opportunity here to speak today on behalf of the license request from CKMW, The Beat.

5353 I work in both the urban and dance music genres.

5354 My name is Awesome Awan. I am a principle in a company called Awesome DKD with Donald K. Donald.

5355 The purpose of the company is to develop Canadian artists locally, nationally and internationally.

5356 Unfortunately, Donald couldn't be here with me today because of Canadian Music Week, so today I speak on behalf of the both of us.

5357 I have the privilege of working with CKMW Radio's Orangeville station, and together we have championed some great artists. One being The Sound Ones who won a Juno Award last year for best dance recording and are nominated this year again in the same category.

5358 Also, Jenna G. who is presently recording her debut album, which will be released later this year. Her single, Gentleman Part Two, is currently the number one most requested Canadian song on CIDC's play list without any national chart numbers.

5359 Another successful act on the roster is Big Black Lincoln, which is nominated for a Juno this year in the category best R&B soul recording and is also nominated for a Canadian Radio Industry Award for best new group.

5360 None of these artists, I might add, receive any airplay in Halifax.

5361 This all happens because of the commitment of the station to break new Canadian artists, the very thing we need in our business, a broadcaster that wants to take a chance on new and creative Canadian talent.

5362 Another example of the commitment for Canadian talent development is the Hot Summer Rush, a once a year show the station presents. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for developing artists to be on the same stage as some of the superstars at that time, getting to perform in front of 15,000 plus people.

5363 I got into this business because of the love of music; but more importantly, my quest to find the next big thing.

5364 I was able to convince Donald and Deane Cameron, the president of EMI, that there is an abundance of Canadian urban talent that remains untapped. Hence, the creation of Awesome DKD, which is a label distributed through EMI.

5365 In recent years, the CRTC has granted urban licenses in many markets, which I am extremely thankful for.

5366 It has now allowed me, as a business man, to commit real dollars to real Canadian artists because now we have an outlet to get our music played.

5367 So far, the model has been working. We have signed a few acts and we intend on signing more. We hope that the next act could potentially come from the Maritimes. Without a station here in Halifax, that is less likely.

5368 If the license was granted to The Beat, not only would I be able to expose my music to an untapped market, where up until now I have not gotten any exposure for my acts or sales of my product, working with CKMW radio, I could potentially find sales.

5369 Through the stations commitment to support local talent, we could identify new acts from the Halifax region, get involved with them and take them to the next level.

5370 Wouldn't it be fantastic for the music community of Halifax to be awarded this opportunity?

5371 In addition to my co-venture with Donald K. Donald, I also act as a consultant for EMI and run their dance imprint Popular Records.

5372 Popular's primary commitment is to dance music. Our record sales in Halifax have been extremely poor. I believe it is a direct result of the lack of radio support that presently exists.

5373 Our largest sales market is Toronto.

5374 The only station that plays our records of international artists in the Toronto market is CIDC, because they are the only ones who seem to understand that you have to program radio beyond the U.S. charts.

5375 They listen to new music and they play the best. They take chances and are willing to work with a small emerging company like mine.

5376 Since dance music originates in Europe, the other stations will not see the music coming. But CIDC goes and finds the best of what there is and gets it on the air.

5377 Without the support of the radio station, it would become very difficult to achieve any level of success on any of our releases.

5378 We have always tried to break Canadian dance music through these compilations that are predominantly fuelled by European dance hits.

5379 Because the station understands and identifies dance music as a niche, we feel it is important that they be granted the license so that we can expand the successful model into the Halifax market.

5380 CKMW have proven to me that they are committed and it is my request that they be granted this license.

5381 I know Paul Evanov personally, and the team personally. I trust him and believe strongly that CKMW will play my music and work with me to break and expose my acts into the Halifax market.

5382 In addition, it is my belief that if they are awarded this license together we will identify star artists from this market and help them develop their music career dream.

5383 Thank you.

5384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Awan.

5385 Just one question.

5386 How would you respond to the argument that is advanced by some in this proceeding that the surveys which are done of potential existing or potential radio listeners in the market show that the greatest demand is for an older demographic that would be, perhaps, less likely to listen to this type of music?

5387 MR. AWAN: Your surveys are showing that?

5388 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not my surveys.

5389 The argument is advanced by some who have appeared in front of us that they surveys they have done.

5390 MR. AWAN: Well, I think that dance music is only one component.

5391 I identified when I started my label that it was not only dance, but also -- in the example of an artist like Jenna G., she is an R & B pop artist. So when you are talking about rhythmic music, you have a tendency to have a sort of "cross-pollinasation".

5392 In terms of what the research shows, I mean, if the research at this point, as far as I am concerned from a business man or also from a music lover's standpoint, there is nothing at this time that serves in this community the younger music and the younger people.

5393 Does that answer your question, sir?

5394 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.

5395 Thank you for your presentation this morning and your insight into these issues.

5396 That concludes our questioning.

5397 Just for those of you who may know, you have heard Orangeville for the last two days, and some people may be wondering where this huge metropolis of Orangeville actually is.

5398 It is a small town on the fringe of Toronto.

5399 Mr. Secretary?

5400 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, this intervention completes phase three of the Halifax market.

5401 THE CHAIRPERSON: We had a couple of names, one which you called was Neil Black at the outset.

5402 MR. LEBEL: That is correct.

5403 I was later told that Mr. Black was not going to be available.

5404 THE CHAIRPERSON: That completes this stage of our process then.

5405 I think with that then we are ready to proceed to phase four, and we had scheduled that for 2:00, so I think perhaps what we will do is take an extended lunch break today and we will reconvene as we had planned at 2 p.m., at which point we will resume with phase four, the final comments by all of the applicants; in reverse order of their original presentations.

5406 We will see you back here at 2:00 p.m.

--- Upon recessing at 1156

--- Upon resuming at 1402

5407 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please, ladies and gentlemen.

5408 We will return to our proceeding now and phase four of the final phase for the hearing for the applications for Halifax.

5409 Mr. Secretary?

5410 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5411 In phase four, applicants reappear in reverse order to intervene to all interventions that were filed on their respective applications.

5412 We will first hear from CKMW Radio Limited.

5413 You have 10 minutes to respond.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5414 MR. EVANOV: Thank you.

5415 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and staff, before we begin I would like to thank the Chair for providing the geographic location of Orangeville this morning. It is a city we are very proud to serve.

5416 Some of the young people in the audience or those listening on the website are probably confused by the Orangeville-Toronto connection with CIDC. So let me just say quickly that there is no marketing area called "Toronto".

5417 In fact, the Toronto CMA, which includes the city of Toronto, but also the cities of Brampton, Newmarket and Orangeville, three cities that we serve.

5418 We would also like to serve the city of Halifax.

5419 With that, I will let Carmela reply to the intervention.

5420 MS LOURIGNANO: Thank you, Bill.

5421 I am Carmela Lourignano and I am the vice-president and radio group manager for CKMW Radio Limited.

5422 I am a shareholder of The Beat, the proposal for a youth service in Halifax that you have heard about yesterday.

5423 It is incredibly exciting to me to advance from a management position into one of ownership.

5424 Having worked very hard throughout my career to design and manage broadcast properties, ownership seems a natural step and I want to thank Bill Evanov on behalf of both Ky and myself, Ky Joseph and myself, for recognizing our efforts and realizing our potential.

5425 Much has been said about the format mix we are proposing.

5426 In this hearing, some have suggested that our proposed blend of music is so different it might not work, but nothing could be further from the truth.

5427 Ask any person between the ages of 12 to 24, and they will not speak of genres of music. Genres of music are for hearings and programmers.

5428 Youths will not single out a music chart or provide only one stream of music as being their only choice.

5429 Mixed CD's that is music play lists created by downloading music, is the norm; and the reason for this, they have diverse interests and they love music.

5430 We have firsthand experience, but we understand that the Commission requires empirical evidence.

5431 Our research showed almost equal interest in several genres of music in the 12 to 24 demographic, but we recognize that the only test of the validity of research is that it can be replicated. That is, that studies conducted separately will result in identical findings.

5432 So, let's look at this research, from this hearing and from other recent hearings to examine our claims.

5433 In Kitchener in 2002, we tested interests in various genres of music among youths and found that 77 percent of the 12 to 17 year olds, or teens; and 82 percent of the 18 to 24 had a high interest in modern and alternative rock; while 64 percent of teens and 79 percent of 18 to 24 like hip-hop, a form of urban.

5434 In Edmonton in 2003, our research found similarly high levels across format.

5435 77 percent of teens and 71 percent of 18 to 24's had a high interest in modern alternative rock, while 71 percent of teens and 61 percent of 18 to 24 had a high interest in hip hop.

5436 The research by Harvard in Edmonton, during the same process, is on record as finding similar levels of interest in this demo for rock, urban and R&B.

5437 But most relevant to these hearings is the research done by other applicants.

5438 We, and others, such as MBS, have done a vital job of articulating the demand of Halidonians.

5439 MBS is an applicant for another frequency proposing an older format and they have also done their homework.

5440 When you look at their extent of research prepared by Strategic Inc., and the data that is associated with a huge portion of their sample, we see very little difference in interests of cross formats.

5441 Urban artists are listened to frequently or as often as possible by 79 percent of teens and 71 percent of 18 to 24.

5442 Modern rock is listened to frequently or as often as possible by 79 percent of the teens and 80 percent of the 18 to 24.

5443 When you look at this logically, how can anyone claim that the audience to these genres are segmented?

5444 Our research was attacked on the basis that we were said not to have tested the "modern alternative rock format".

5445 We are not familiar with that particular label for a format.

5446 In this application on file, we tested and asked our 800 respondents questions about their interest in alternative rock, rock and soft rock.

5447 We tabulated the results from that survey and that is part of the research filed with our application.

5448 We are a little perplexed, frankly, as to why we should be attacked for not having done something that we in fact did and is a matter of record?

5449 We will play youth contemporary radio. It is a blend of music that cannot be easily pinned down to percentages as it must change to reflect the interests of our core audience.

5450 Our play list, combined with our strong and relevant spoken word package will provide a tuning option that will fill a need of their broadest cross-section of youth.

5451 We have proven that we can reach this group.

5452 We have proven we are in it for the long haul and we do not abandon formats.

5453 We have proven that we can compete and co-exist with other broadcasters.

5454 We strongly believe in what we are proposing.

5455 We ask the Commission to share our vision and offer us the chance to provide the youth of Halifax with a voice and an alternative listening option.

5456 We want to thank the thousands of young people, advertisers, community groups who supported our application through petitions, letters, e-mails and some in person throughout these hearings.

5457 We thank the Commission and staff for their patience and interest in the conduct of this Halifax hearing and will see you soon or someone's relative, perhaps Commissioner Cram's relative might say, "Whatever".

5458 Thank you.

5459 THE CHAIRPERSON: I do not think we have any questions.

5460 Thank you, very much.

5461 Mr. Secretary?

5462 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5463 I will now ask the Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5464 MR. REGALA: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission.

5465 Kaleidoscope Radio has no comments on phase two or three, however, we take this opportunity to add that we are pleased with the appearing interveners on our behalf in phase three, who made very positive comments on the need of community radio in the Halifax region.

5466 We certainly appreciate the Commissions concerns as to the question of volunteers to ensure smooth flow of programs in all the areas we have proposed.

5467 We are confident by the fact that many of the interveners are willing to volunteer and actively recruit others to fund the pool of volunteers for Kaleidoscope.

5468 We will continue to explore creative ways to strengthen long-term volunteer commitment for the radio station in the coming months.

5469 Continuing volunteer recruitment, together with the support and training that will be accessed through partnerships with the broadcasting programs run by the Kemptville Community College, and we hope, with Halifax Jamz 95.7 FM, should they be granted a license, gives us confidence, and I hope comfort to yourselves, that if our application is approved we will run a viable and competent community radio station that will serve the needs and interests of all the communities in the Halifax region in the coming years.

5470 Thank you.

5471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your presentation.

5472 I hope you signed up Ms Paris as she was leaving!

5473 Thank you.

5474 Mr. Secretary?

5475 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will now ask Halifax Jamz 95.7 to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5476 MR. DONOVAN: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I would like to reintroduce ourselves.

5477 My name is Michael Donovan. To my left is Manuel Canales and to my far left is Bill Ritchie.

5478 We have no comments on anything in phase two or three.

5479 We believe the issues were dealt with adequately in phase one and with the Commissions questions.

5480 We are very pleased to have the opportunity to present our story yesterday and feel that and have confidence in the Commission's decision.

5481 Any questions?

5482 We'd be happy to answer your questions.

5483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

5484 MR. McCALLUM: I just want to confirm for the purpose of the condition of license the -- I guess the revised funding of the Canadian talent development initiative, which results from the Canadian talent development sum over seven years, going from 1.25 million down to 1.165 million.

5485 As I understand it, when you take out the $85,000 as per your proposal, the amounts would be $150,000 for year one; $160,000 for year two; $165,000 for years three and four; $170,000 for years five and six; and $185,000 for year seven.

5486 Is that correct, for the purposes of condition of license?

5487 MR. DONOVAN: Yes, it is.

5488 COMMISSIONER McCALLUM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5489 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen.

5490 I look forward to hearing you as a DJ, Mr. Ritchie.

5491 Mr. Secretary?

5492 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5493 I will now ask International Harvesters to respond at this point.

5494 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are out harvesting!

--- No response / Pas de réponse

5495 MR. LEBEL: I am not seeing anybody.

5496 I will then ask East Coast Broadcasting Incorporated to respond at this time.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5497 MR. CORMIER: Good afternoon members of the Commission.

5498 As you probably already know, my name is Serge Cormier, I am president and CEO of East Coast Broadcasting and I am pleased today to present phase four of the public hearing process application.

5499 Before I begin, I would like to comment on the recent search of intervention since this is an opportunity to comment on interventions filed over the past few weeks in support of our application.

5500 With the recent snowstorm happening in Halifax, I use that as a theory, I believe that because of that, lots of people had more free time to actually sit down, especially in front of their computer, to express their opinions and concerns about Halifax radio, which resulted in over 100 community members and organizations to actually write letters of support by e-mail over the past two weeks.

5501 And although those interventions were filed after the February 5 deadline, they still show strong support for our application for demand for CHR/Rhythmic radio station in Halifax.

5502 I would now like to offer comments on the interventions filed by Maritime Broadcasting and CKMW Radio Limited.

5503 And also, I will offer brief comments on Astral Radio Atlantic's comments made during phase one of their presentation.

5504 In its intervention filed on February 5, MBS Radio stated that they opposed our proposal based on three aspects.

5505 Aspect number one, market demand or lack thereof of market demand.

5506 Number two, insufficient quality CTD initiatives.

5507 And number three, they were concerned with the relatively small scale of our operation.

5508 Now I would like to offer comments for market demand.

5509 First of all, in the solutions research group study filed with our application, we can clearly see that the Atlantic provinces, in general, are under served when it comes to CH or urban format radio stations, as they lack behind the national average.

5510 This supports the void in the regional market for this format and with Halifax as the Atlantic provinces biggest radio market, there is a definite need for CHR urban radio.

5511 Also, as well, this fact is supported by market research followed by Astral and CKMW, who are also applying for a station with a similar format at these proceedings.

5512 As well, it is important to note that market research filed by Global identified an urban youth oriented format as a second option for market demand.

5513 Finally, with a total of four applicants proposing an urban based format, it is my clear view and I hope you all realize that there must be a demand for urban based format for a radio service in the Halifax market.

5514 Now, for the CTD initiatives argument by MBS, we believe our proposed CTD initiatives are significant, based on our projected revenues.

5515 It is important to note that by calculating the CTD to profits ratio, it is clear that our commitment to CTD is significant given into account our projected revenues; and this ratio is actually a bit higher than the ratio when we calculate the ration with MBS's CTD commitments as far as their profits are concerned and also as well, CKMW's CTD to profits ratio.

5516 As far as the scale of our operation is concerned, when it comes down to the relative size of our operation, we wish to make the following points.

5517 Our projected revenues and expenses take into account that we have applied for a three kilowatt rather than 100 kilowatt transmitter in our operation.

5518 Clearly, revenues will be left because of reduced coverage, but as well, expenses will be way significantly less, based on lower technical requirements.

5519 Also, as well, Rogers and Astral both confirmed that urban would not be profitable and when asked whether if they are only granted one license whether or not they would support the urban, both of those organizations said that they would drop the urban before their other proposed service, since they see that with such a big operation that the revenues for an urban based station are very limited.

5520 The reason why they are saying that it is not profitable is the fact that they are both proposing high power 100 kilowatt stations, which have significant expenses and a much higher overhead than a three kilowatt operation.

5521 Since CHR/Rhythmic is such a new radio format, it is our belief that only a smaller scaled operation as proposed by East Coast Broadcasting, would be able to survive without changing formats down the road.

5522 Now, I would like to offer a few comments about CKMW.

5523 The CKMW intervention generally addresses the same concerns as MBS, but I would like to add the following.

5524 First, CKMW is proposing to target the 12 to 24 demo, and in our view, this demo alone is too small for a viable radio operation as it only represents 14 percent of the population and approximately 60,000 people in HRM.

5525 Second, the CKMW format is untested and as such, success is uncertain, as they stated with their Orangeville operation, their target demo is 35 to 34 and with this proposal they are actually targeting 12 to 24. So they are not really proposing to offer a similar format as their Orangeville operation.

5526 So because of that, really, this format is untested and the success is uncertain, especially, when it comes down to playing rock music along with urban and dance as this concern was actually made by the Commission.

5527 With such a small demo, the fear of licensing CKMW, the fear that the Commission should have, is actually the fact that CKMW would be prone to actually changing their format after they are licensed in order to be able to compete better in the market, since they are a single station player, if they are licensed in this market.

5528 My opinion would be that they would widen their target market to up to 34, so 12 to 34. And with that, they would probably compete head to head with existing station C100, which would not contribute to diversity in the Halifax market.

5529 And finally, just a few comments about Astral's application.

5530 There are concerns that they raised in phase one.

5531 They stated in phase one that they had concerns about our relatively small staffed when compared to the other applicants, while just to reply to that, with a smaller scaled operation, such as the one proposed by us, by East Coast Broadcasting, it is clear that the revenues projected would not support a bigger staffing in initial years of operation.

5532 Now, we have got to realize that a CHR/Rhythmic is a new format, and both Rogers and Astral have stated that it is a large operation and it would be unviable without the assistance of a second station.

5533 Now, with a single station, the only way to be viable with this format is to have a smaller based operation.

5534 However, it is to our belief that this operation will be successful and as such we plan to expand our staff levels considerably after the third year of operation.

5535 Finally, just to close, we will ensure as well that the personalities will cater to the 12 to 34 market and we can even accept that as a condition of license.

5536 Also, a quick comment about the technical aspects of our operation.

5537 Our three kilowatt operation will be way less invasive than the other applicants who all proposed close to 100 kilowatts in most of the proposals.

5538 Also, our proposal does not interfere with any existing services, especially it does not interfere with the CBC's long-range radio plan in Truro, I am talking specifically here about the Astral revised second hold parameters which resulted in their use of 89.9, which is reserved in Truro for CBC Radio II.

5539 And actually, I realized this and I want to close with this, I thought of this and it just came into my mind and I was talking to a few people here and they supported the same thing.

5540 It is interesting to note that Astral operates two radio stations in Truro and by operating those two stations in Truro, it comes to mind that really by jumping on 89.9 and causing difficulty to the CBC to open its proposed radio II service and also with, of course, you probably all know by now the BBM's for CBC are quite high in the Atlantic provinces.

5541 It comes to mind that whether or not that this would actually be a way to prevent the CBC to operate in the Truro market.

5542 But I will just leave it at that, it is just something I thought of while talking to a few people.

5543 Other than that, I just want to close saying that if licensed, East Coast Broadcasting will deliver the urban sound that Halifax wants and has requested with over 150 letters of support sent to us via several means.

5544 If licensed, we will not let you down.

5545 We will provide the urban sound over our entire seven year license term and even beyond.

5546 We will not change formats, we will stick with the format that we are proposing today.

5547 Thank you, very much.

5548 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

5549 We do not have any questions for you.

5550 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, I will now ask Global Communications Limited to respond at this time.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5551 MS BELL: Good afternoon, Chairman Colville, Commissioners and Commission staff.

5552 For the record, my name is Charlotte Bell.

5553 With me today are Peter Viner and Ross Porter, who will begin our presentation.

5554 MR. PORTER: I would like to begin our remarks in this phase by acknowledging the overwhelming support we received for The Breeze. More than 210 letters have been filed with the Commission in support of the application. This represents one-third of all the interventions filed in this proceeding.

5555 These include letters from many potential listeners in the 35 to 64 age group, the fastest growing and most affluent demographic in this market.

5556 Also, a number of musicians, recording artists and music writers also came forward with strong support for our proposal, as it will provide an outlet for homegrown music, something you have heard is clearly lacking in this marketplace.

5557 We have received resounding support from representatives of the local business community, including potential advertisers in the travel, entertainment and high-end automobile sectors; providing a strong basis for advertiser demand for The Breeze.

5558 Commissioners, we have carefully reviewed the intervention filed by Maritime Broadcasting System and we have considered their comments as well as those of Astral in phase two.

5559 While MBS acknowledges that the market could afford at least two licenses, they have applied for only one and opposed most other proposals.

5560 While they propose to serve the most well served demographic in the market, they oppose everyone proposing to cater to other demographics.

5561 The basis of their intervention against The Breeze is premised on the fact that the easy listening format has not succeeded in Halifax in the past, specifically, 10 years ago.

5562 In their written intervention and again yesterday, MBS stated that easy listening in the particular incarnation Global proposes was indeed available in Halifax up until 1994, but has since gone off air due to lack of demand. They are only half right.

5563 Our proposal for The Breeze resembles in no way any other service that was ever licensed to provide easy listening music in this market.

5564 In fact, the extensive play list we filed in response to deficiencies and our discussions with you on Tuesday clearly demonstrate that this proposal is a complete departure from the easy listening format of yesterday.

5565 As well as the service provider by Seaside and Eastern Passage, Seaside did not oppose our proposal, and in fact we had discussions with their general manager and we look forward to working with them.

5566 Clearly there is no basis for the argument put forward by MBS.

5567 MS BELL: MBS asserts that of our financial projections show a loss of 1.6 million dollars over seven years and claims that this is further evidenced that this format may not be sustainable in the long term.

5568 They suggest that we would likely flip the format early on in the license due to these losses.

5569 However, a comparison of our financial protection with their own, shows that our revenue projections are significantly higher than those projected by MBS.

5570 In fact, over seven years our conservative projections show that we will draw 3.3 million dollars more in advertising revenues than the MBS proposal.

5571 While they attempt to link our stations financial viability to a lack of demand, our revenue projections suggest otherwise.

5572 So if our revenues are that much higher than theirs, how do we explain the losses?

5573 It is simple.

5574 As a stand alone station, we do not have the same synergies that MBS would achieve with three stations in the market.

5575 In fact, by and large, our projected costs are similar to those of MBS, though their programming costs are significantly lower than ours and their administrative costs represent only a fraction of ours throughout the entire license term.

5576 It is all the more interesting that MBS suggests that the Commission should not license our proposal because it would increase the level of cross-media ownership in Halifax and lessen the diversity of editorial voices.

5577 Unlike MBS, we have made a firm commitment, in fact we have accepted a condition of license, to operate a separate newsroom for The Breeze. This is reflected in our higher programming costs.

5578 On Tuesday, we also confirmed that the National Post only reaches 5,900 Halifax residents.

5579 So this begs the question: does the operation of three radio stations under common ownership, using a common newsroom better enhance diversity of the news voices in this market?

5580 In terms of the comments made by Astral concerning media concentration, we can only direct you to Astral's dominant position in the Québec market and the fact that they also seek to enter this market with two radio stations.

5581 We have provided the sound business plan for this proposal, it becomes cash flow positive in year three, just like the MBS proposal.

5582 We predict profitability in year five.

5583 If MBS, as discussed on Tuesday, is willing to sustain minus 20 percent PBIT losses for their AM station without ever adjusting their business format or plan, we can confidently say that we have the resources to sustain a 1.6 million dollar loss over a seven year period without changing our format.

5584 While MBS consistently refers to our projected 15 shares being unrealistic and further basis for concern that we will not meet our projections, we confirm once again that our financial projections are based on a more conservative share of seven, growing to 13 by the end of the license.

5585 Despite our conservative approach, we are confident that the service will be viable and will garner higher revenues than MBS.

5586 MR. VINER: Maritime Broadcasting has repeatedly raised the alleged lack of demand for this format. They support this claim by challenging our research.

5587 As we explained on Tuesday, we commissioned a well-known independent research house to serve as a benchmark for us to determine the optimal format for this market. But this is only one measurement tool for us.

5588 First, the research revealed that when given the choice between 14 distinct radio formats, 26 percent of all respondents chose easy listening as their number one choice. A further nine percent stated that smooth jazz was their number one format choice.

5589 Those results, coupled with a high demand for all soft or vocal musical styles tested in the survey made it abundantly clear that this was the right way to go. But we did not stop there.

5590 We surveyed what was currently available in the market and it was evident that demographically most existing stations were already serving the younger end of the 25 - 54 demographic. I believe that was underscored this morning.

5591 While MBS alleges that this is the largest segment of the population in Halifax, we note that 67 percent of the population in that age group is between the ages of 35 to 54.

5592 Furthermore, the percentage growth of the 55 plus population, according to Stats Can was 21.4 percent between 1996 and 2001.

5593 According to Financial Post market statistics, the percentage growth for that group will have grown a further 16.8 percent by 2004, bringing the 55 plus growth to 41.7 percent in the last decade.

5594 Commissioners, today's 35 to 64 year olds are the wealthiest and fastest growing cohorts in Canadian history. We know how to serve them and we know how to sell them.

5595 Prime TV is now the fifth-ranking analogue specialty service in Canada in terms of audience.

5596 According to the numbers the commission released earlier this week, while the rest of the specialty sector draws an average of 62 percent of their revenues from subscriptions, Prime does the reverse. 62 percent of their revenues last year were drawn from advertising.

5597 Let us be clear, we are unequivocally confident that there is an advertiser demand for this demographic.

5598 Commissioners, we cannot afford to lose the confidence and the respect of the regulator by promising one thing and doing another.

5599 If you license this service, in seven years, you will find us meeting the needs of our target audience in the market. As well, our commitments will be met.

5600 To broadcast 20 percent of instrumental selections, 20 percent category three music, 10 percent music from the Atlantic region, 40 percent Canadian content in category two, and 30 percent in category three.

5601 Commissioners, this proposal is bold and innovative and reflects the long history of our companies entrepreneurial spirit.

5602 We are now before you for the second time with a proposal for this format because we believe that its time has come.

5603 It is time for commercial radio to serve the interests of this important and growing segment of Halifax population.

5604 Thank you for your interest and patience.

5605 We will answer any questions you may have.

5606 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Bell, gentlemen.

5607 We do not have any questions.

5608 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I could, however, thank you for the size of the print. It was very nice I could read it without my glasses.

5609 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will now ask Maritime Broadcasting Systems Limited to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5610 MR. GODSOE: Mr. Chairman, when we started this process, we started as a team and we are going to finish as a team.

5611 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I want to thank our interveners this morning.

5612 I believe they clearly explain the kind of community-based radio broadcast Maritime Broadcasting is. And I cannot say anything more than that.

5613 On behalf of our team of presenters, we will take any of your questions.

5614 THE CHAIRPERSON: We do not have any questions.

5615 MR. GODSOE: Thank you very much.

5616 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary?

5617 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, I will now ask Astral Radio Atlantic Incorporated to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5618 MR. EDDY: Thank you, Commissioners.

5619 We appreciate that the Commission looks to Industry Canada for spectrum management, but since the topic of frequencies was raised by CBC and East Coast, we have a comment for the Record.

5620 Industry Canada has introduced a modification to the allotment plan so that FM frequency 89.9 MHz is reassigned from Truro to Halifax.

5621 CBC has approved the change subject to Industry Canada and FCC approval.

5622 Our consulting engineer advises that there is little likelihood of difficulty with the FCC, because there is no short spacing in relation to any U.S. station.

5623 In any case, you have our assurance that we will meet all Industry Canada requirements now and in the future.

5624 Now, I would like to acknowledge and thank the positive intervenors who supported our applications.

5625 We have received dozens of letters of support, and more than 1,000 signatures on a petition from fans of modern alternative rock, and urban rhythmic music.

5626 They applaud the formats, the prospect of distinct choice, and the substantial commitment to providing opportunity, support, and encouragement to local emerging artists.

5627 Several specifically highlighted our $4.2 million commitment to Canadian talent development.

5628 Three issues raised by MBS require our response.

5629 First, the impact of Astral on MBS operations. The short answer is none.

5630 Contrary to MBS claims, our Carot expert market study shows that licensing our proposal will result in no material loss of market share for MBS. Almost the entire impact will be borne by market leaders Chum and NewCap, neither of whom intervened.

5631 Since they are also the so-called combo Goliath, a reduction in their market share improved MBS's competitive position, and in the process, makes a positive contribution to competitive balance in the marketplace.

5632 Second, MBS can have no legitimate complaint about our research since theirs identified the same void in the market, and also confirmed that modern alternative rock, and urban rhythmic music formats are most in demand among the under served young adult audience.

5633 Third, MBS has cast our intent in a negative light.

5634 To the contrary, we bring important benefits and positive benefits to Halifax.

5635 Two new formats reaching an under served demographic. Highly strategic CTD initiatives unmatched by other applicants and funded to a level that will ensure their success.

5636 A strong and viable business plan to ensure long term success.

5637 Creative original spoken word commitments, and including our Street Beat Team which will deliver relevant local news seven days a week to our target audience.

5638 90 hours of live programming a week on each station.

5639 Experience and success in serving the young adult demographic, a tremendous addition to better competitive balance in the marketplace.

5640 Integrity, passion, commitment and a strong desire to serve this hugely under served audience segment.

5641 As one of the Applicants said yesterday, in an ideal world, every format would have its own station. Each to its own is certainly what Halifax wants for these two distinct formats. Ours is the only proposal that delivers.

5642 Licence our proposal, and Halifax young adults get the radio choice they have been asking for, and Atlantic Canada gets a third strong regional broadcaster.

5643 Thank you, Members of the Commission. We appreciate you careful consideration for our application, and our presentation.

5644 I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

5645 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think Commissioner Langford has one.

5646 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have a question that there is so little notice to you that you may find it unfair, and if you do, then fine, just do not answer it.

5647 It just occurred to me, actually, this very minute. Those are always the most dangerous questions.

5648 During the Phase I process, I think during the questioning from my colleague, Commissioner Demers, you indicated that if you could only have one of the licences, you would prefer the alternative rock one, if it came down to the point where you could have one rather than two.

5649 Am I right?

5650 MR. EDDY: Yes.

5651 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Have you given any thought to how you would divide up your CTD commitments if that were the case?

5652 MR. EDDY: Yes.

5653 In our presentation, and in our supplementary brief, the CTD commitments are isolated and itemized by station. So, we will deliver $2.1 million in CTD benefits in conjunction with that station, and it will be precisely those programs that we outlined.

5654 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I apologize.

5655 There is a lot of paper here, and I had missed that.

5656 Thanks very much.

5657 MR. EDDY: You are welcome.

5658 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Eddy.

5659 Mr. Secretary, the last party who started all this...?

5660 MR. LEBEL: Indeed Mr. Chairman, Rogers Broadcasting Limited is asked to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

5661 MR. MILES: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission.

5662 First of all the follow-ups from Monday's presentation as requested by Legal Counsel at the end of the presentation on Monday. We have filed the revised population counts for our proposed frequency change, and indicated that there will be no change in the business plan, and we have now filed a revised weekend schedule for News 96.

5663 We don't respond to the interventions on a formal basis.

5664 Our response just focuses on clarifications and corrections regarding comments made by certain intervenors.

5665 If I was to sum up the buzz words, I guess, for the last couple of days, it would be research and birthday's, with a little more emphasis on the research part!

5666 There was some indication, we felt, that we had not done sufficient research into these formats.

5667 I will tell you that we will launch the alternative urban top 40 radio station.

5668 Our view on research, just to clarify the discussion that we had that MBS brought up with Commissioner Langford is that we said that we did not do any research prior to Jack FM in Vancouver.

5669 So imagine, if you will, going out to 400 or 600 respondents and saying, "how would you like a radio station playing songs that you have not heard for a long period of time, and if you did not like the one that we just played, you will like the next one. By the way, it does not matter, because we are going to play what we want anyway."

5670 I don't think we would have been able to get much kind of response back to it, and it would never have launched.

5671 Even more germane to the issue here today, is when we did 680 News in Toronto.

5672 So again, go out to this marketplace and say, "how would you like a radio station that is going to do news all the time, and oh, by the way, have traffic and weather together on the 1's."

5673 On the 1's?

5674 What? 1:00?

5675 How many 1's are there in an hour?

5676 That is the kind of response we sort of got back.

5677 "By the way, do not listen all the time. Listen for three or four times throughout the day, and come back and listen some more later on."

5678 What makes radio stations?

5679 Our programmers. You met some of our programmers. You met Julie. You met Gina, John, Sandy.

5680 Radio stations are made by programmers. We spend an awful lot of money on research. We spend money on research to formulate and refine, the format that we launch.

5681 But, at the end of the day, what really is an indication is whether there is public acceptance by these radio stations after you have gone on the air.

5682 We know what we want to launch. We have made commitments to it, and we stick by our commitments.

5683 The other thing I would just like to comment on was our frequency shift to 95.7.

5684 We have already spoken to Mr. Canales of the Jamz team. He indicated that, it sort of came out of the blue, it was not our intent to file applications on top of anybody else's.

5685 As you know, NavCan came up with two frequencies that were not applicable at the last minute.

5686 We wanted to make sure that we were in compliance from a technical point of view, and how to file that application.

5687 We actually believe that at the end of the day NavCan can be talked into making some changes. They may not.

5688 There is lots of frequencies in the marketplace available in any particular case.

5689 So, we certainly did not want anything untoward to that particular application, and as I have indicated, we have spoken to Mr. Canales and told him that at the end.

5690 We would like to congratulate all of the applicants. They have been good quality presentations.

5691 We would like to thank you, Mr. Chair, and the Commission for our hearing.

5692 Through you, to the staff, we would like to thank our applicants. I won't say good-bye, because I think we will be seeing one and other again.

5693 Thank you.

5694 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Miles.

5695 I must say that the Halifax market, notwithstanding all the concerns about the David and Goliath atmosphere, that I think apparently exists here, that it has been a fairly stable market for almost 15 years.

5696 Certainly with your application, which kicked us off, has created a lot of interest and excitement in the market, thus far at least in terms of the application phase.

5697 I think that has been a good thing, and we will see where we go from here.

5698 We are only part way through this Hearing process, but I know that some of the people will be leaving, because this is the end of the Halifax phase of the Hearing.

5699 So, let me echo your comments in that, I think my colleagues all agree, we have heard a lot of excellent presentations over the last couple of days, excellent quality of presentations on behalf of all of the intervenors as well.

5700 I want to thank you all for that, particularly those who won't be here for the Moncton - St. John - Fredericton portions of the Hearing.

5701 Those who are leaving, thank you very much.

5702 Mr. Secretary, any concluding comments on this phase?

5703 MR. LEBEL: No, Mr. Chairman.

5704 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. With that then, we will take a break until 3:15, at which point, we will hear from Mr. Miles again.

--- Upon recessing at 1457

--- Upon resuming at 1515

5705 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please, Ladies and Gentlemen.

5706 We will return to our public hearing now, and we will move to the Phase I stage of hearing applications for Moncton.

5707 Mr. Secretary.

5708 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5709 We will now hear Items 12 and 13 on the Agenda, which are applications by Rogers Broadcasting Limited for licences to operate radio programming undertakings in Moncton.

5710 The first being an application for an English language speciality FM commercial radio programming undertaking to be operated on frequency 91.9 MHz (channel 220C) with an effective radiated power of 40,300 watts, and an application for an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking to be operated on frequency 105.5 MHz, (channel 288C), with an effective radiated power of 41,600 watts.

5711 Mr. Gary Miles will be introducing it to the Panel.

5712 You have 30 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

5713 MR. MILES: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, I am Gary Miles, CEO Radio, Rogers Broadcasting Limited.

5714 With me today to my left, John Hinnen, Vice President, Radio News Programming and Program Director for 680 News.

5715 Sandy Sanderson, Executive Vice President, and National Program Director.

5716 To my right, Sandra Stasiuk, Vice President or Finance, and Alain Strati, Director of Business and Regulatory Affairs.

5717 We are pleased to have the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss our applications for two new FM stations in Moncton.

5718 In our Halifax presentation earlier this week, we outlined the News/Talk/Sports, and urban top 40 programming concept, and highlighted their ability to serve that market.

5719 We also discussed the rationale for having filed applications for News/Talk/Sports stations in each of Halifax, Moncton, and St. John.

5720 For this presentation, we will again touch on the general elements of each format, and more particularly accentuate why both formats would best serve the Moncton market. In doing so, we will address three key issues.

5721 (1), why we choose News/Talk/Sports and urban top 40 formats for this market; (2) how these formats will work, and; (3) why local radio listeners and the Canadian Broadcasting System will benefit from the approval of our application.

5722 In preparing these applications we have reviewed the format of the English language radio stations currently serving this market. We believe two major formats are missing.

5723 First, no station in Moncton is serving younger audience with a dedicated urban top 40 format. We believe there is a clear need for a station that will focus on this very popular youth format. A need our station will meet.

5724 Second, our News/Talk/Sports station will fill a void in news and information in the Moncton radio market. It will offer listeners a much needed alternative, one who's approach, perspective, and style, will compliment the programming already available from the CBC.

5725 John?

5726 MR. HINNEN: With a blend of News/Talk and Sports programming, News 92 will quickly establish itself as the source for local news and information in Moncton.

5727 News 92 will provide unparalleled resources for news gathering and news reporting, and adopt an unique approach for the timing and the delivery of its content.

5728 During the weekday morning drive from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m., News 92 will operate as a locally produced all news station, and will include specific programming segments dedicated to news, traffic, weather, sports and business.

5729 During the mid morning hours from 9:00 to noon, News 92 will shift its focus to personality driven talk programming. This particular talk program will be produced locally in Moncton, and broadcast on our other News/Talk/Sports stations in Halifax and St. John.

5730 The program will provide a forum for community dialogue, with invited guests, and call in listeners alike, discussing issues of concern for listeners in Moncton.

5731 It will also provide an opportunity to establish a local area host as a voice for the local community, ensuring that a Moncton perspective is communicated to listeners in all three markets.

5732 During the noon hour period, from noon to 2:00, News 92 will once again revert to its locally produced all news format.

5733 Then in the afternoons from 2:00 to 6:00, News 92 will provide a blend of all news and talk with 34 minutes per hour of locally produced all news programming, and 26 minutes of talk program produced in by News 89 in St. John.

5734 With this kind of coverage, News 92 listeners will certainly have access to a local resource for their news and information.

5735 During the weekday period listening period from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., more than 51 hours will be focused on news and talk programming, produced by News 92. That is more than 85 percent of that critical period committed to locally produced, locally relevant news and information programming.

5736 News 92 will also have the flexibility to break away from regularly scheduled programming to cover major news stories and events.

5737 It will have full access to the news bureau in Fredericton, to ensure that the station can provide comprehensive coverage of events and issues in the provincial capital.

5738 In the evening, News 92 will turn its attention to sports, offering sports talk programming from Halifax, with lots of opportunity for input from listeners from Moncton, along with play by play coverage of sporting events of interest to local listeners from locations throughout New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

5739 Certainly there is a lot of interest in junior hockey and university sports throughout the Maritimes, and Moncton is no exception. News 92 will become their source for sports programming.

5740 All three of our proposed News/Talk/Sports stations will provide important new employment and training opportunities for aspiring and established broadcast journalists.

5741 Recognizing that education and training in this area are imperative, our application will provide annual scholarships totally $210,000 for broadcast journalism students at the New Brunswick Community College, the University of King's College, and the Atlantic Media Institute.

5742 In a particular case, NBCC, we have chosen to provide two $5,000 scholarships to support students enrolled in the French language radio and television arts program at the Dieppe Campus.

5743 We will also assist in the continuing education of scholarship recipients by offering them summer placement positions at our station.

5744 News 92 will establish itself as the information resource for the whole community, offering consistent access to local news, traffic, weather, sports, and business reports.

5745 News 92 will "superserve" Moncton residents with a strong focus on the production of local news and information programming.

5746 Now, Sandy will describe her proposed urban top 40 for the music station.

5747 Sandy?

5748 MR. SANDERSON: Thanks, John.

5749 We want to provide local listeners in Moncton with a radio station that is exclusively focused on urban top 40. The format that is rapidly becoming the most popular with today's younger audiences.

5750 Three of the four English language music based radio stations in Moncton have formats focused on listeners in the 25 to 54 year old age group. They are targeting that demo with either country, rock, or an adult contemporary format.

5751 The fourth station, K94.5 describes itself as having a CHR format. However, K94.5 plays much more of a hybrid of music from different formats, urban top 40 and rock.

5752 Our experience has been that the urban top 40 and rock formats are not compatible.

5753 While a certain degree of cross-over can occur, these situations are more as a result of the popularity of a particular song or artist rather than some type of industry trend.

5754 K94.5 slogan is "Moncton's Newest Music". With no other station serving younger listeners, they are simply trying to be all things to all people.

5755 However, in doing so, we believe K94.5 is turning away many younger radio listeners.

5756 Many of them are left with little option but to access other media sources, CD's, streaming, or downloading from the Internet to ensure they get the music they want without diluting it by music from other formats they have no interest in.

5757 Urban top 40 fans want a station dedicated to their music, a station that will exclusively feature and promote urban top 40 artists.

5758 They also want a station that will deliver programming that addresses their particular issues and concerns.

5759 In essence, they want a home on the radio dial for urban top 40.

5760 Our station will provide them with a dedicated station in Moncton.

5761 Unlike existing stations, our station's format will not be watered down. It will exclusively focus on the urban top 40 format.

5762 In doing so, we hope to bring many younger listeners in Moncton back to local radio and reverse recent tuning trends in the younger demos.

5763 We believe our urban top 40 station will be able to channel the energy and enthusiasm of a youth audience, and build an urban top 40 radio station that becomes a voice and an identity for young people in Moncton.

5764 Gary?

5765 MR. MILES: John and Sandy have already identified a number of reasons why we believe our applications are in the public interest.

5766 However, there are two additional benefits that we believe are also worthy of consideration.

5767 First, we recognize that the operation of the News/Talk/Sports station and the production of local news and information programming in a market the size of Moncton will be expensive and difficult.

5768 In truth, the economics are such that the establishment of a local station in Moncton on a stand alone basis would be virtually impossible in this format.

5769 However, we believe in this format, and we believe access to a reliable and consistent source, like News 92 is a significant public benefit for a community like Moncton.

5770 To make that happen, we have developed a business plan specifically designed to generate the operating efficiencies necessary to support the operation.

5771 Second, we will bring a significant increase in programming diversity to the Moncton radio market, with minimal economic impacts on existing radio stations.

5772 The local economy and local radio market provide a strong financial base for the introduction of our new radio services.

5773 General economic indicators for both New Brunswick and Moncton are positive.

5774 CRTC financial results for the Moncton market in the 2002 - 2003 broadcast year also highlights the strong revenue growth and profitability of this market.

5775 While a number of new stations were licensed in 2000, we believe those stations have now been absorbed, and that the market can sustain the licensing of additional stations.

5776 By targeting specific under served segments, we also believe our proposed stations will attract new advertisers, and new advertising revenues to the Moncton radio market.

5777 We have projected that 60 percent of our Year 1 revenues will be new to radio.

5778 As the Commission is aware, we filed these applications in conjunction with similar applications for new FM stations in the markets of Halifax and St. John.

5779 We believe that access to a News/Talk/Sports and urban top 40 station in each of Halifax, Moncton, and St. John, will increase the diversity and choice of programming available in each market, providing much needed local radio services for under served listeners.

5780 We believe the public interest will best be served by the approval of all six applications.

5781 However, during the deficiency process, we suggested that this would be possible to licence only the two stations in Halifax, and during our presentation earlier this week, we also suggested another option which would entail licensing of all three News/Talk/Sports stations as a group.

5782 In conclusion, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, we believe the approval of our applications would best serve local listeners, contribute to the achievement of the objectives of the commercial radio policy, and make the most effective use of the available frequencies in the Moncton market.

5783 We submit there are three reasons you should approve our application.

5784 One, we have identified the right formats. Our News/Talk/Sports and urban top 40 will fill voids in this market.

5785 News 92 will respond to local listeners' need for a consistent and intensely local news based service.

5786 Our urban top 40 station will establish a true home for urban top 40 music focusing on the specific needs and interests of urban top 40 listeners.

5787 Two, we have developed detailed innovative plans for the implementation of these formats.

5788 News 92 will combine all news, talk and sports programming components to uniquely address the needs and interests of listeners in Moncton.

5789 Our urban top 40 station will give younger listeners a clear voice in the community reflecting their unique tastes, opinions, and lifestyles.

5790 Three, our new stations will offer significant public benefits, including initiatives to support Canadian talent development, and a regional operating plan that will allow us to extend the benefits of News/Talk/Sports to the smaller markets of Moncton and St. John.

5791 For all of these reasons, we believe the approval of our applications would be in the public interest, and thank you for your time and attention, and of course, are prepared to answer your questions.

5792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Miles.

5793 No doubt people have heard this before, but I must say that I feel like the bridegroom on his wedding night, marrying the famous movie star who has been married seven times before.

5794 I know what I have to do, but my challenge is to try and make it seem interesting!

--- Laughter / Rires

5795 MR. MILES: You have taken my opening line!

5796 THE CHAIRPERSON: Having asked you all the same questions for the exact same application for Halifax, but it was suggested to me in fairness to other parties, that we should go through this for Moncton and subsequently for St. John.

5797 I don't know what we are going to do when we get there.

5798 It will be the morning after or something. I don't know.

5799 Let me take this approach first of all.

5800 I guess one of the sense I have with the issue with Moncton which is perhaps somewhat different than Halifax, I think in the case of Halifax, it was acknowledged certainly by the David of the David and Goliath twosome, that given the financial situation with the market in Halifax, it could probably sustain one and perhaps even two more players.

5801 The overall PBIT: profitability before interest and taxes, in Moncton is somewhat lower than Halifax.

5802 What makes you confident that the Moncton market indeed could sustain two more stations entering that market, without having an undue impact on the existing operations?

5803 MR. MILES: I think the exciting thing that has happened in radio over the last little while has been the ability to actually bring new advertisers into the marketplace.

5804 This market has revenue of $9.3 million, and there are two operators for the English language radio, each with two radio stations.

5805 We indicated that the operating margin, when we ran our numbers, were around about 25 percent. That is fairly good. In fact, it is very, very good.

5806 That is not the PBIT. It think it is about 20. But, operating margins or cash flow, 25 percent.

5807 You would have to assume that the operators are sharing that roughly the same way as their total share of tuning is, probably on about a 60 - 40 basis, you know, and NewCap has got about a 40 share of the market place, and Maritime has about a 30 share. The CBC have a 14 share. Actually, about normal for CBC operations in most of the markets that they are in, but they do not derive any revenue from that.

5808 We tried to come up with an instance that would be comparable, and I guess the closest we may have come would be comparing it to the Kingston market. It has a population of 115,000. There are three operators in there. Two big operators, and a single operator. So, there is five radio stations in that market.

5809 The revenue in that market is around about 10 - 10.5.

5810 But, the interesting part about it, there is a 35 percent spill into that marketplace for tuning.

5811 10 percent from the border station, the U.S. comes across there and sucks outs 10 percent and takes money with it.

5812 So, the remaining is the spill from Belleville and from Brockville into that market.

5813 Here the spill is not that. I think the spill actually is more into Fredericton than it is either into Moncton or St. John. I better remember this is Moncton, we are talking about. So, I better stayed tuned with that.

5814 So, the issue is that this market may well be able to sustain a couple of licences, which is our contention. It is a healthy market.

5815 The operators are good. They are good radio operators.

5816 You know, one of them has got two stations, and I think Maritime has got an interest in a third one. It is a French station, but it is my understanding they sort of sell that together with the two of them.

5817 So, this is about typical and normal for the way these kind of markets operate, and that makes us believe that there is a healthy market, and can afford some new business, into -- and new interests into the market.

5818 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you were projecting your revenue sources, you used the exact identical percentages in terms of the various sources that you were going to get -- and again, I am asking the same question I asked for Halifax.

5819 Given the Moncton market was somewhat different than the Halifax one, why did you choose the exact same figures, and given that 40 percent where we have fewer stations, smaller market, coming from those stations, why would we assume that that would not have a negative impact on those existing operations?

5820 Or I guess why the exact same figures, and why wouldn't we assume that 40 percent would have an impact on those figures?

5821 MR. MILES: Our experience has indicated that regardless of the size of the market, the percentages, give or take 1 or 2 percent, remain the same.

5822 So, we said that 40 percent of our two station's revenue would come from the existing players.

5823 At the time that we did our projection, to be quite frank about it, we had estimated the market considerably lower than 9.3, so there is a bit of a bump there.

5824 But, it still comes down to the fact that there will be some people in that market who are advertising on existing stations, or are not advertising very much on existing stations, because they are not able to reach a very certain segment, such as the business one on the News/Talk/Sports one, or the dedicated top 40 rhythmic radio station that we are proposing.

5825 The other 30 percent is going to come from out of market sources.

5826 When I meant "out of market", I mean currently people not advertising on radio.

5827 We found that there is a good fertile ground for moving people out of the newspaper into radio, with good well thought out creative targeted approaches.

5828 You know, again, with all reference to my friends at Bell, the newspaper business readership is declining. Circulation is going down. Rates are going up. We do it particularly effective in markets of this size.

5829 One of the examples that I may have mentioned on Monday, and if not I will mention it now, is in our operations in Northern Ontario, we closed two people last week, both $60,000 campaigns. I mean, that is a sizeable about of money for a market in Sudbury. A sizeable amount of money in just about any market that we are operating in.

5830 So, we have been doing this now for two or three years. Our sales people are thoroughly trained in this one. So, we are quite confident we can move that away.

5831 Again, it comes down to those percentages don't change that much. It is just the dollars connected with it.

5832 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if we look at the synergies between your ability, should you have the urban top 40 and the news station, you would presumably gain some synergies by having those two stations in that market.

5833 Can you talk about what they would be?

5834 MR. MILES: Yes.

5835 The synergies actually come more in the back shop, so we would be able to mount two sales staff, which we would do, and we operate two separate and distinct sales staff whenever we have different formats in the marketplace.

5836 It allows us for more concentration of management. We would probably put in some more management people into that particular area.

5837 We would have to then have, with more business being done, we would have to have more traffic people. So, it is that part of it.

5838 The programming part of the thing actually does not much change when you separate the two examples. The reason for that is because the program formats are so diverse.

5839 So, a News/Talk/Sports is an intense personal loaded format, and it is the same to operate almost whether you are operating in Moncton or Halifax, or St. John. So, the same amount of people.

5840 Then of course, there would be some savings in economies in terms of rent and things like that, and the facility would share. But, there would be increased expenses for a bigger space needed, more technical equipment, etcetera.

5841 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would there be any synergies at all?

5842 Rogers obviously operates cable in New Brunswick.

5843 Are there any synergies whatsoever between radio operation and the cable enterprise which you would not have in Nova Scotia?

5844 MR. MILES: The answer is yes on about three areas, areas that I think are germane to the conversation we have been having.

5845 First of all, the ---

5846 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank God I was able to think of a question that we had not already asked!

5847 MR. MILES: First of all, we have been absolutely thrilled, and I use the royal "We" at that stage of the game, because I am not in the cable business, although I have from time to time offered Ted my advice on how to run it. He's, you know, graciously not taken it.

5848 But, the response to Rogers Cable being in New Brunswick and in Newfoundland has been very, very good. So, there is a goodwill associated with it that, from time to time, without putting too heavy a line on it!

5849 THE CHAIRPERSON: You could not resist it!

5850 MR. MILES: I promise now to clean up act. That is right. I couldn't resist it.

5851 But, more importantly, just from the areas, if for instance, we were only granted one licence, I think there would be some opportunities, because you would say, "well it must cost you more because of the rent, and things like that."

5852 Because of a smaller facility, we would be able to move into the physical building in which Rogers Cable is located in.

5853 The other thing that most people do not understand because it is sort of -- sits over here, we actually run a sales force in New Brunswick and also in Newfoundland.

5854 We, Rogers Broadcasting, the Radio Division, runs a thing called TV Listings Advertising Sales. It is the advertising that is alphanumeric on the right hand side of the TV listings.

5855 So, we have been operating in the community. We are already calling on clients in this particular market, and in St. John, and throughout the rest of New Brunswick.

5856 Our entrée into, you know, who's good for advertising, we would naturally like to talk to people who do business with us if we are doing business with them.

5857 We had an opportunity, and I have been dying to tell this story, because I think it is a good story.

5858 The East Coast Music Association, as you know, move around their February convention from market to market, and this year it happened to be in St. John.

5859 Rogers Cable actually dedicates something like 12 to 18 hours broadcasting from each of the locations that they do.

5860 Rogers Cable did not think that they could do the broadcasting, because they were having some difficult time getting sponsorships in order to pay for the technical equipment, etcetera.

5861 We put our TV advertising sales staff to work, and we were able to round up in about four days $12,000 worth of sponsorships, which we turned over to the cable company, so that they in turn could turn over the facilities to the East Coast Music Association.

5862 So, those are the kinds of things -- we understand how these communities operate, and we understand the goodwill.

5863 One of the Applicant's today was telling me about their ability to be interviewed on the community channel in Moncton about this very same application, and the kind of response that he got back from the community.

5864 So, that is the long winded answer in saying that there are some synergies, and I think from a very positive point of view that allows you to take formats like this that are fairly unique, and have a better ability to launch them and get them off the ground, in a small market, in a relatively small market.

5865 THE CHAIRPERSON: The people who are being used there now, who engage in that sales activity, would they actually do sales work for you, or conversely would your sales people then take on that sales work?

5866 MR. MILES: No. We -- thank you for asking that question.

5867 I absolutely believe very strongly in having separate sales forces and separating the sales responsibilities.

5868 These people have a unique product to sell. They are enthusiastic about it. They understand the attributes, and radio has the unique property sales, and News/Talk/Sports has the different component and different ways of delivering services to the clients than an urban top 40 radio station does.

5869 While we provide a great deal of training, and it is the same training for all the people I talked about, our sales conference that we have every year. We bring the TV Listings people in. We bring in sales people from Vernon.

5870 I make a point actually of saying to each and every one of them that we have standards that go across all of our radio stations, and that applies to TV Listings.

5871 The standards are there for one reason, is that no one will ever be denied an opportunity to move from one market or from one division to another one, and have that person say, "well, you don't know how we do business here. It is different here." It is different.

5872 We just don't do that, and we don't allow it.

5873 So, if those people wish to move over, because they thought that the selling of the radio would be different, yes, they could do that. But, we would not be tying and selling it together.

5874 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the selling of the radio different as between news and music?

5875 MR. MILES: Very much so. Yes.

5876 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, that there is different sales there too. You may have said that a minute ago, but perhaps if you did, I missed it.

5877 MR. MILES: Yes.

5878 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, not only is the selling of the cable ads, the selling of news is different than the selling of urban top 40. So, there is a totally different sales group there.

5879 MR. MILES: Correct.

5880 But, the selling skills are the same.

5881 So, the attributes that we look for, the hiring standards we put in them, the coaching and training, they are all the same.

5882 But, when it gets narrowed down into it, you know, there are very, very distinct differences, in terms of the 680 sales staff.

5883 Even with the Fan, they are two distinct separate sales staff. They all have different products to sell, and they are all very passionate about it.

5884 THE CHAIRPERSON: You said that if you were only granted one licence, you could move the facility into the office building where the cable enterprise is in Moncton, but there would not be room for two I take it.

5885 MR. MILES: No. I will have to check back on that.

5886 But, yes. Obviously, we need different space.

5887 With two radio operations, we would probably need our own space.

5888 So, therefore we have the same economy because we would be able to take that rent and put it over the two.

5889 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we talked about the Halifax situation -- and I take it, we should be clearer I guess in terms of the options, and you went through them here.

5890 MR. MILES: Yes.

5891 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the scenarios in Moncton, you would accept one or the other, but neither one if you did not get Halifax.

5892 Is that a correct understanding?

5893 MR. MILES: I have rehearsed this now quite a bit, because it was your first opening question.

5894 So, the best would be six.

5895 The next best would be the two.

5896 We would accept the music stand alone in Moncton, but we could not accept the News/Talk/Sports as a stand alone without St. John and Halifax, because we need to have some regional effiencies on that.

5897 Did that make sense?

5898 The music would be a stand alone, but the News/Talk/Sports stand alone just by itself as a licence without St. John and Halifax.

5899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I think I understand.

5900 You would accept the music stand alone in Moncton with nothing else.

5901 MR. MILES: Yes.

5902 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of all six applications, one scenario is a music stand alone in Moncton, and nothing else.

5903 MR. MILES: We would accept that. It would be a lot easier to operate with it in Halifax. But, yes.

5904 THE CHAIRPERSON: But, not a news stand alone in Moncton.

5905 MR. MILES: But, not a news stand alone. Yes.

5906 THE CHAIRPERSON: But, you would take the news stand alone network, if I can put it that way.

5907 MR. MILES: Bad word to say, but yes, I understand.

5908 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have had trouble with it.

5909 MR. MILES: I know.

5910 THE CHAIRPERSON: Global understands network versus system, right?

5911 Perhaps this is a little off that, but since we are on this point, did I understand a day or two ago that you would accept a news stand alone just in Halifax?

5912 MR. MILES: Correct.

5913 THE CHAIRPERSON: A single news station, no music stations, no news in Moncton or St. John, a single stand alone news station in Halifax?

5914 MR. MILES: Yes, we would.

5915 Thank you.

5916 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Maybe this is a good exercise.

5917 So, your point about not accepting the news stand alone in Moncton is you notwithstanding the synergies that you could gain by having an office facility in the same building as the cable enterprise, you could not make a financial go of a stand alone news operation in Moncton.

5918 MR. MILES: Our whole business model was comprised of the two operations in each one of the markets, as it were.

5919 So, obviously when you stake some alone, you have got to figure out where the economies are.

5920 The point that I would make is that, I think we made this earlier, it is all about the revenue, and it is hardly anything at all about some of the kind of savings on the expenses. But, there are some ways of jigging some of that expenses down.

5921 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.

5922 Again, some of this may seem a little awkward, and I apologize if we are jumping around here a bit much. I was fumbling for it here a minute ago.

5923 I think you filed some information in terms of syndicated programming on the weekends. Is that right?

5924 MR. MILES: Yes.

5925 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

5926 Can you indicate the source of that syndicated programming?

5927 MR. MILES: What we talked about in terms of syndicated programming, it was a hodge podge of different kinds of sources.

5928 Clearly the local programming in that marketplace will be what we discussed as gardening shows, financial, medical, that kind of thing.

5929 The rest of it would be -- some of it rather would be sports programming that would be applicable for that local market, either in conjunction with other programming that would be going on on a separate basis in say Halifax for instance.

5930 There would be some ESPN sports programming. There may well be some Blue Jay baseball programming that comes on. There would probably be the best of Bob McCowan's Sport's Show that would come on.

5931 So, if that is what you are talking about syndication, yes.

5932 But, that is the limit of it.

5933 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would there be news programming within this?

5934 You have this wheel here that shows that is the typical sort of day's situation.

5935 During these periods, like when the syndicated program would be on, on these weekends -- well, let's just take the weekend time slots.

5936 You have provided us with this chart which shows three major blocks for each of Saturday and Sunday.

5937 Would there be news segments within those?

5938 MR. MILES: I am going to turn that over to John Hinnen.

5939 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Hinnen?

5940 MR. HINNEN: Thank you, Gary.

5941 On the weekends, we would not be incorporating the news wheel. That is very labour intensive, and we try to focus it on the times when of course there is the heaviest tune in to radio.

5942 But, we would certainly envision to have some news on weekends, and every hour we would have some news certainly throughout the day from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m, and barring of course if there were sporting events that would pre-empt it.

5943 But, we definitely would look at having some news content on the weekend. Yes.

5944 THE CHAIRPERSON: It raises an interesting question in my mind about when you mention labour intensive.

5945 What would be the staffing at the radio station on the weekend?

5946 MR. HINNEN: On the weekend, it really sort of depends what time of day we are talking about. If we are running a best of type programming, a lot of that, of course, and certainly on -- during the mornings and the weekends. We could be running the best of... We just really require an operator, because we would be taking the best of what we had during the week in terms of talk segments, and things like that, plus obviously, some news content.

5947 Then there may be occasion as we have talked about as well where we do financial shows. Depending upon if they were being done live, or if they are being done recorded. Sometimes they could be recorded during the week. But, often times they are done live because quite often when you look at what we do in our situation in Kitchener, we will also provide an opportunity for people to call in questions if it comes down to RSP season. They might have specific questions as it relates to their investments.

5948 So, there is some times that opportunity as well. So, it really comes down to what particular show we are talking about and the time of day.

5949 But, the labour intensive part obviously comes into play during the week when we really have a very strong staff, and we have modelled our news wheel in many ways in terms of staffing levels in terms of what we do in Toronto with 680 News, and we have obviously modified to some extent, but for the most part, we have taken that approach.

5950 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess one of the reasons for raising that question  -- the station will manned by a person on the weekend, I take it, will it?

5951 MR. HINNEN: It will be. Yes.

5952 THE CHAIRPERSON: I raise that. Maybe this is just anecdotal that during the fires in British Columbia last summer, I understand that at least one radio station literally had to be broken into to -- so it could be taken over a broadcasting area, because a computer was essentially running the station and nobody was there.

5953 MR. MILES: I recall something to that nature.

5954 I will assure you it was not the Rogers station, and in fact, our station in Vernon supplied the news reports throughout the entire weekend and the entire week, not only just to News 1130 in Vancouver, but to the rest of the market, and the news reporter and editor was on 680 News.

5955 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did not mean to imply that it was you, and I do not even know if it was true. But, we have heard that story.

5956 But, other stories in other small communities where the station is programming but a computer is pretty well running it for the weekends, and there is nobody home.

5957 We talked I guess on the Halifax situation. Let's just confirm this.

5958 In the original proposal, there had been in the evening period, where we had music, and now we are talking a sports talk program.

5959 Can we just clarify that for the Record for Moncton.

5960 MR. MILES: I am going to ask Mr. Strati to make sure he clarifies the percentages.

5961 But, yes, we are going to substitute the music for a by and large sports programming. We will make sure we give you the same percentages.

5962 MR. STRATI: Much like Halifax, we did in deficiencies talk about the level of music programming with spoken word. I think we talked about a mix of about 25 percent - 75 percent.

5963 Given some of the changes we are talking about now, and I think Gary mentioned it a couple of days ago on Friday, we think that there would a lot less music on News 92. I think we would prefer to have a little bit of flexibility. I think we talked in the neighbourhood of 7 to 10 percent.

5964 If you look at over a broadcast week of 126 hours, it is sort of a flexibility to have maybe 5 to 10 hours a week which would have maybe a program or two, or maybe a special, that would have some music content.

5965 THE CHAIRPERSON: I always fall into this trap. I am trying to think about one thing while I am listening to you at the same time.

5966 This show is originated from Halifax, right?

5967 MR. MILES: That is correct.

5968 THE CHAIRPERSON: But, it may well have a regional focus in terms of its content?

5969 Could you just talk about that a bit?

5970 MR. MILES: It clearly will have a regional focus in terms of the content.

5971 As well, it is our intention -- we found, particularly talking with the people at Dalhousie, and again, I do not want to mix up Halifax with Moncton, but that is the best example.

5972 It is the kind of university sports programming that is not receiving any coverage at all. We know that that is the same situation in Moncton. So, we will be on doing university sports programming in those time periods, and it will be either the regional talk programming, or we will be putting in those kind of play by play, and sporting events from the university.

5973 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, on the licensing scenarios that the news programming through the week has a segment shared by the three stations from Moncton, one shared by the three from St. John, and one from Halifax.

5974 Now, again just going through the scenario, I take it we would not have Moncton alone, Halifax has to be there. But, it is conceivable you could have Moncton and not St. John.

5975 So, just to clarify for the Record, if you do not have the St. John programming, what happens to that time slot?

5976 MR. MILES: To go back to our original statement about how we really believe, the only way that these can operate is that we do need the News/Talk/Sports station in each one of the markets.

5977 Did that answer your question?

5978 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess I am a little confused.

5979 You would not operate the News/Talk -- I understood you to operate the News/Talk if you had Halifax and Moncton, ...

5980 MR. MILES: Right.

5981 THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... and not St. John.

5982 MR. MILES: No. I'm sorry. No.

5983 That we said that we needed the three of them in order to make this concept work.

5984 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or just Halifax.

5985 MR. MILES: Or just Halifax.

5986 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, if we have Moncton, we need St. John.

5987 MR. MILES: That's right.

5988 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

5989 MR. MILES: But, in order to have Halifax, we do not need Moncton or St. John.

5990 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.

5991 I understand Halifax can stand on its own, and the two ...

5992 MR. MILES: Yes.

5993 THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... time slots that you got from Moncton and St. John just get filled up with a similar nature of programming, ...

5994 MR. MILES: Absolutely.

5995 THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... but it originates in Halifax.

5996 MR. MILES: Yes.

5997 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right.

5998 I do not have any further questions on the News/Talk issue.

5999 Commissioner Cram?

6000 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have two questions.

6001 One, in your presentation, I think Mr. Hinnen, you were talking at Page 6, about in the afternoons from 2:00 to 6:00 p.m., we will provide a blend of all news and talk with -- have you found that?

6002 MR. HINNEN: Yes.

6003 COMMISSIONER CRAM: With 34 minutes per hour of locally produced all news, and 26 of talk programming.

6004 Well, I didn't even need my calculator. That adds up to 60 minutes. Where are the ads in that?

6005 If you take ads out, how much of locally produced all news programming would people hear?

6006 MR. HINNEN: I would say at least 24 minutes outside of the ads. Because we are thinking maybe running 10 minutes of commercials an hour.

6007 One of the things that we will be doing in the afternoons from 2:00 to 6:00 is incorporating the key elements of our news wheel. That means, having the news headline packages at the top and bottom.

6008 Maintaining the traffic and weather elements on the 1's, adding in sports at 15 and 45, and business at 26 and 56.

6009 So, that in essence will take up a fair chunk of the clock, and then there is basically a 3 minute segment from 12 to 15 where there is going to be a talk opportunity, and there will be other opportunities as well throughout the clock for the host then to fill in those spots.

6010 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

6011 MR. MILES: Commissioner Cram, if I may add. We were talking about the differences of selling this kind of a format, even different from all sports.

6012 Part of the attraction of this format, well there is two things. One is that it is a foreground format, and the commercials stand out by themselves, and hence deliver fabulous results for the clients.

6013 But, the second part is, it is part of the sponsorships of it, and its frequency in sponsorship.

6014 So, that instead of minutes worth of commercials, you are actually doing sponsored by, and --

6015 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The news brought to you, ...

6016 MR. MILES: Exactly. That kind of thing.

6017 COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ... the weather brought to you by... Yes.

6018 MR. MILES: But, it is quite frequent.

6019 I admire John's enthusiasm for selling 24 minutes an hour, but we may be a little while getting there.

6020 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The other thing I wanted to ask is, in this market, you think you will be getting 40 percent from the incumbents.

6021 This is a bilingual market.

6022 Do you believe that you will be getting some of that revenue source, and even listenership from only the English incumbents, or the French incumbents?

6023 MR. MILES: Can I separate the listenership from the revenue sources?

6024 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sure. Yes.

6025 MR. MILES: So, let me deal with the easiest one first, the revenue sources.

6026 I suspect that won't be quite as prevalent. In fact, I suspect it won't be very prevalent at all.

6027 It is interesting that our intelligence tells us that Maritime Broadcasting sort of sells their two English language and the French language together. We probably won't do that.

6028 As for the listening though, this is what our experience has found.

6029 The reality is that listening and tuning is shared and it goes back and forth.

6030 We found that there is no particular one radio station that people get attracted and they never ever move, regardless of the language of choice.

6031 That is why I said, if we had done research on 680 News, we tell people actually to go away and come back again, and go away and come back.

6032 We actually have some pretty empirical evidence that we have a multi-language radio station in Toronto called 680 News.

6033 John?

6034 MR. HINNEN: We actually have, as you know, in Toronto, being a very multicultural city, we have people from all backgrounds. So, we have actually approached them in different ways.

6035 We have billboard campaigns, in the past, had billboard campaigns up addressing our programming in their language. We have done it in Chinese, in Mandarin. We have done it in Greek, Italian, and the various languages.

6036 In fact, we have taken out advertising as well in newspapers, Sing Tow and Ming Pow in Toronto, and make people aware that 680 News exists.

6037 What we found, and this is not unique to us, we have certainly been in the situation with some of the other all news operations in the U.S. as well, is that many people actually listen, from other countries, listen to a station such as 680 News as a way to learn the English language.

6038 It is fascinating, because they seem to feel that -- there is some repetition, as you know, with a format such as 680 News.

6039 So, the sense is that because they may have missed it once, they may catch it the next time around.

6040 So, we are getting incredible response from people of different backgrounds to our format.

6041 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, you think minimal impact on revenue, if any, on the French incumbent.

6042 Probably some impact on unilingual Francophones, of whom I think there are very, very few.

6043 What about the bilingual person who would switch between an English station and a French station in this market?

6044 Do you think you would get the normal viewership that you would as if that person were a single language Anglophone, or would the ---

6045 MR. HINNEN: The short answer to that is yes, and I am going to go out on a bit of a limb.

6046 We have had an opportunity to have a great discussion with the people who are applying for the French station, either tonight or tomorrow morning, and we were talking about the same sort of thing.

6047 Both of us came to the same conclusion, that that switching back and forth does happen as a matter of course. It probably happens with far more with them than we sort of -- than I certainly understand, anyway.

6048 So, I think, yes.

6049 The short answer is minimal impact on the revenue, but I really believe that we will be able to gather this all up.

6050 These are what we call once a week or oftener kind of listeners, and not really share listeners.

6051 You know, when we launched 680 News, the share of the radio station was 1.3.

6052 Even now, it is about a 4.5 - 4.6, something like that.

6053 So, these are not periods of stations in which people listen for long -- start in the morning and listen through until night.

6054 Although, the talk component of this operation will extend some of that share more than anything else. But, it is people from all walks who come in, listen for a period of time, and go back out again.

6055 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Pop in for a while and then ...

6056 MR. MILES: Exactly.

6057 COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ... move on.

6058 MR. MILES: That is the attraction to advertisers.

6059 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

6060 MR. MILES: Yes.

6061 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

6062 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6063 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford?

6064 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have a question, and you are going to hate it.

6065 But, we have got to do it because I thought I had everything clear on what the different scenarios that Rogers would accept in the Maritimes, but after your discussion with your eight husband there, I have lost it here!

6066 For my own peace of mind, I have got to go over it sooner or later, so it might as well be today. I think we have a little time.

6067 If we could just start, really just do it from "A" to "B".

6068 You would accept obviously all six.

6069 MR. MILES: Will that end the questioning?

6070 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes. Just humour me for once here.

6071 Then you would accept both in Halifax.

6072 MR. MILES: Correct.

6073 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Even if that were all you got?

6074 MR. MILES: Correct.

6075 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

6076 Then you would accept all three news, ...

6077 MR. MILES: Yes.

6078 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ... even if that were all you got?

6079 MR. MILES: Even if that were all we got.

6080 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

6081 I heard you say, I think this afternoon, you would accept only music in Moncton, even if that were all you got.

6082 Is that what you said?

6083 MR. MILES: Yes.

6084 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

6085 MR. MILES: In as much as that we are talking about Moncton at this particular time.

6086 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

6087 MR. MILES: Ask me the same question on St. John.

6088 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm going to.

6089 MR. MILES: Yes.

6090 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I might as well do it all.

6091 Would you accept only music in St. John?

6092 MR. MILES: Yes.

6093 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would you accept only music in Halifax?

6094 MR. MILES: We would be thrilled.

6095 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Okay.

6096 So, just to be absolutely pellucidly clear here.

6097 What I gather you would not accept is one or combinations of news that do not add up to all three.

6098 I cannot believe I said that!

6099 MR. MILES: But, I think it works.

6100 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You wouldn't accept one news only, or two news only, no matter where they are?

6101 MR. MILES: We would accept one news only in Halifax.

6102 MR. HINNEN: In Halifax.

6103 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One news only stand alone in Halifax.

6104 MR. MILES: Yes. My coach.

6105 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have got both in Halifax. All three news.

6106 Music in Moncton. Music in Halifax. News in Halifax. Yes. Okay.

6107 Has somebody got this if I haven't?

6108 THE CHAIRPERSON: The transcript --

6109 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The transcript has it.

6110 I am sorry to beat this to death. The music in Moncton, and the music in -- and the sort of certain stand alone, I wasn't aware of those.

6111 Thank you, very much.

6112 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Court Reporter gets a vote!

6113 MR. MILES: We are committed to the News/Talk/Sports format, but clearly it is the regionality of it from an economic point of view, and a selling point of view. Not as some people have indicated that we plan on running a regional network of radio stations. It is not that at all. It is local, local, and local, with some degree of sharing back and forth. But, I need the three of them actually to make the economics of the sales part.

6114 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I want to assure you that I am not trying to imply anything ...

6115 MR. MILES: No.

6116 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ... by asking these questions except perhaps that I am a little thick.

6117 I am not attempting to embark on any kind of bargaining or anything.

6118 I just really want to get it clear in my mind, and I did not have that one piece clear. So, I am grateful for your patience.

6119 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6120 MR. MILES: Thank you for the question.

6121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams?

6122 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is it possible that you could rank your preferences with that list that you provided Commissioner Langford?

6123 THE CHAIRPERSON: Number 1 is all six.

6124 MR. MILES: I always liked this part!

6125 Number 1 is all six.

6126 Number 2 would be the two in Halifax.

6127 Number 3 would be the three News/Talk/Sports.

6128 And number 4 -- no. I'm just -- you have my top three.

6129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel, do you have some questions just on the news?

6130 I was going to ask a few questions on the music that is the urban top 40 station.

6131 MS JONES: Just a few clarifications.

6132 Because you propose now less music than you used to in your original application, would you mind re-filing a programming schedule for a seven day week, which would identify the local programming, when the local programming is to be aired, and what percentage the local programming would amount to?

6133 You said that you would be ready to accept a conditional licence of a maximum of 10 percent music, that means that talk would be for 90 percent.

6134 If you could re-file this before Phase II ideally, it would be --

6135 MR. MILES: If I may just say that if you were talking about identifying the local programming during that evening period of time where we are going to do the News/Talk/Sports, we will have to put down -- we would expect to do -- because we don't know when the play by play broadcast may be on a local basis.

6136 MS JONES: Maybe to identify approximately what the level of local ...

6137 MR. MILES: Sure.

6138 MS JONES:  ... programming would be.

6139 MR. MILES: And where the sources would come from.

6140 MS JONES: Yes.

6141 MR. MILES: Okay.

6142 MS JONES: Also, I know you are going to submit this, but would you be prepared to accept as a conditional licence that 50 percent of your programming be local in Moncton? Maybe --

6143 MR. MILES: The percentage was how much?

6144 MS JONES: You had proposed in your application a minimum of 50 percent. I just want to confirm that, that the programming would be local.

6145 MR. MILES: Yes.

6146 MS JONES: Yes. Thank you.

6147 My last question is about CTD contributions.

6148 You, for the News/Talk station in Moncton, you had proposed $10,000 per year.

6149 Would you accept this as a condition of licence?

6150 MR. MILES: Correct.

6151 MS JONES: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6152 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just have a couple of questions on the music one.

6153 Would the music station for Moncton essentially be playing from the same play list as Halifax, would it essentially sound the same?

6154 MR. SANDERSON: Yes, Mr. Chair. It would essentially be the same.

6155 Possibly not exactly, just allowing for regional differences, or the local differences.

6156 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, are you proposed to play several different genre of music, and you have acknowledged that some of the existing stations play some of that music.

6157 MR. SANDERSON: Yes.

6158 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you just outline for us briefly ...

6159 MR. SANDERSON: Sure.

6160 THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... how you see playing these different genres through the day?

6161 Will it be a mix during any given hour?

6162 Will it be packaged as different time slots through the day?

6163 MR. SANDERSON: First of all, it would not be different every hour. It would all be -- every hour it would be the same. The mixture would be within the hour.

6164 We would feature probably half music from the rhythmic CHR; 25 percent pop and 25 percent urban. But, it is under the same umbrella musically.

6165 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, would I see that mixed up say through the dry period, or --

6166 MR. SANDERSON: It --

6167 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or different day parts have different --

6168 MR. SANDERSON: No. Everyday part would be the same. There would be no day parting.

6169 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6170 MR. SANDERSON: So, if this hypothetical 50 percent rhythm, 25 pop - 25 percent urban, if that were exact, it would be an urban rhythmic, a CHR rhythmic, an urban rhythmic. That is ---

6171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, this station ---

6172 MR. SANDERSON: But, --

6173 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

6174 This station will be programmed in Moncton by the Moncton staff. It may well sound, although the music will be similar in genre, -- if I was able to hear the Halifax station and the Moncton station, parallel through the day, they might well sound different in terms of which song is playing at which part of the day?

6175 MR. SANDERSON: Yes. They would sound different as far as the songs.

6176 Obviously the local talent would different, and some of the features might be different.

6177 MR. MILES: We have had some experience doing this in our Ontario North stations where they are similar kind of broadbase format, and there is a market that you can actually sort of drive back and forth between North Bay and Sudbury, and if you drive fast, you can sort of listen to both of them at the same time. They are distinct different radio stations. The music generally is the same.

6178 Let me tell you the talk patterns are completely different, and what is going on in Sudbury, is what is going on in Sudbury, and what is going on in North Bay, you know you are listening two different kinds of radio stations.

6179 That is what we would propose here.

6180 THE CHAIRPERSON: Taking up your point on the talk and the banter that may well go on, you have indicated that this programming, this spoken word programming would be an adaptive one where you would engage in dialogue with your listeners based on events or issues of the day.

6181 Could you give us some sense of the spoken word programming, and how that will be geared to the particular demographic that you are targeting in Moncton?

6182 MR. MILES: Yes. The best explanation of all of this was Julie, who had to go back. She is a relatively new mother, so that is why she is not with us today, and I think you can understand that.

6183 Sandy?

6184 MR. SANDERSON: I am an old mother, so I don't have that problem.

6185 The talk would be interactive insomuch as there may be callers calling in and discussing topics of the day, and maybe a topic of the morning that people call in and talk about.

6186 The news will be just about information that is of interest to 12 to 24 age group.

6187 At this point there aren't any call-in shows planned.

6188 However, there would be interviews if a local artist was available, or an international artist was playing and we could get him.

6189 In that case, we would farm that out to the other two stations as well.

6190 MR. MILES: It may be instructive in when we are looking at the market of this size, and the current formats that are in it, to answer your question in a round about way.

6191 You know, we have got a country, and top 40, and a NAOR classic rock, and an AC radio station, and you know what, those are exactly the right formats for a market which has got 125,000 people, and four frequencies are serving the English language.

6192 So, they tend to be very broad based.

6193 We operate these kinds of formats in many of our markets.

6194 What does happen, of course, as you introduce new formats into it, you know, I think as Global had indicated, then you start to morph these things into more segmented things.

6195 As it segments down from a very wide appeal top 40, and this top 40 has got a, what is it, a 12 - 13 share in 25-54.

6196 So, it is a fairly broad based top 40 radio station, as well it should be. As well it should be.

6197 But, I think that when you come in and you start to segment by putting in this kind of music thing, the people that you hire understand the talk patterns, they understand the what is important.

6198 The program director that will add to your -- there will be a program director here, and a music director here. They will understand how to treat those topical talk patterns of the day. We have done it, as I say, in a number of other markets.

6199 I don't know whether that was helpful or not, but I think just by the very nature of when you start to segment, it starts to become different.

6200 We operate a number of AC adult contemporary radio stations across Canada, and each one of them are different.

6201 They are now starting into a soft adult contemporary mainstream, hot AC, and as you move into those different kind of things, there is the way you hire, the kind of people you put on, the programmer that you get in charge of it, they start to build a format and a talk pattern around that kind of music as compared with just saying, here's the sheet, everybody in the AC saying you should talk about this, because it just doesn't happen that way.

6202 THE CHAIRPERSON: You were also proposing to provide sort of a regional programming on this station each week, as I recall?

6203 Do the three stations work together to provide some regional programming?

6204 MR. MILES: I was listening to my News/Talk/Sports one, but I am now over on the -- yes. It is the countdown. It is a countdown show.

6205 THE CHAIRPERSON: A Top 40 --

6206 MR. MILES: Yes.

6207 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

6208 MR. MILES: Yes.

6209 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

6210 MR. MILES: Yes.

6211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I recall. We had gone through that.

6212 The last area then just to comment on in terms of this would be the news for this station.

6213 If you have both stations in the market, I assume essentially the news would be gathered by the news station for the urban top 40, if I recall correctly, and we are nodding in the affirmative here.

6214 How would you take that news and then gear it to this particular audience which is considerably younger, one would think then the typical audience should have for your news station?

6215 MR. MILES: It falls into the same pattern that I believe we have discussed with regards to what the talk patterns throughout the day are.

6216 But, most particularly, as we heard Julie explain, is the producer of the morning show needs to know what those people are talking about, what is relevant. The program director would be hired specifically to do that. These are the kinds of people that we coach and train.

6217 I think you could summarize it by saying there would be less news. It would be a faster presentation. It would have a different kind of a slant.

6218 But, at the end of the day, it would be topical news stories, the stories that are important to those people of the day.

6219 I love the story about the snow bomb here. You know, what is important. I guess what was important was whether the clubs were going to be open or not that night, you know. Those are important things for the people.

6220 So, it is that same kind of pattern that evolves through the format, and the kind of people that you hire.

6221 You have got to hire the right people to run this kind of format.

6222 THE CHAIRPERSON: "Hey mom, I can't come home. I'm snowed into a bar!"

--- Laughter / Rires

6223 MR. MILES: You know, I never used that one. But, it works, now that I thought of it.

6224 Growing up in Saskatchewan, we were always snowed in in a bar some place!

6225 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, the urban top 40 station would have its own news reader. It would be taking the story that perhaps was gathered on the news station, or if the news station is not licensed, it would be gathered by the urban top 40 station. But, you would have separate news readers who ...

6226 MR. MILES: That is affirmative. In fact, we ---

6227 THE CHAIRPERSON:  ... perhaps tailoring the story a little more to that demographic.

6228 MR. MILES: That is correct. We actually did find that in our experience in Toronto that the people who were doing the news on the news station, just did not suit the other one.

6229 We found out very rapidly after about 15 phone calls from our listeners.

6230 So, it does not take long for you to understand that you do not have the right people on doing the right kind of job in that particular format.

6231 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6232 I do not think I have any more questions on this.

6233 Counsel?

6234 MS JONES: I just want to verify the Canadian talent development contribution.

6235 As part of your CTD commitment, you have indicated that approximately $20,000 will be spent to underwrite the cost of staging the station's concert Summer Jam.

6236 Some of the $20,000 that you will direct to Summer Jam will be used to underwrite such things as staging costs and third party advertising costs.

6237 How much of this funding do you anticipate would be directed to pay the Canadian talent that would perform at the Summer Jam?

6238 MR. MILES: All of it will be there.

6239 MS JONES: Okay.

6240 If it is determined that some portions of your proposed funding would not qualify as eligible, would you be willing to re-direct these funds to support a CTD initiative acceptable to the Commission?

6241 MR. MILES: We will commit to these funds if we find some of them...

6242 MS JONES: Okay.

6243 MR. MILES:  ... do not qualify.

6244 MS JONES: Thank you.

6245 Thanks, Mr. Chair.

6246 THE CHAIRPERSON: Was it good for you?

--- Laughter / Rires

6247 MR. MILES: I don't know how to answer that as much as you may ask me the same thing tomorrow.

6248 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are all our questions, and that concludes our business for the day.

6249 We will return tomorrow morning at 9:00 with Radio Beauséjour.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1638, to resume

on Friday March 5, 2004 at 0900 / L'audience est

ajournée à 1638, pour reprendre le vendredi

5 mars 2004 à 0900

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