ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Kitcherner, Ontario - 2002-10-31

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Multiple broadcasting applications /

Demandes de radiodiffusion multiples


Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points

105 King Street East 105, rue King Est

Kitchener, Ontario Kitchener (Ontario)

October 31, 2002 le 31 octobre 2002

Volume 4


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Multiple broadcasting applications /

Demandes de radiodiffusion multiples


Joan Pennefather Chairperson / Présidente

Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère

Jean-Marc Demers Commissioner / Conseiller

Ron Williams Commissioner / Conseiller


Peter Foster Hearing Manager / Gérant

de l'audience

Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire

James Wilson Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique


Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points

105 King Street East 105, rue King Est

Kitchener, Ontario Kitchener (Ontario)

October 31, 2002 le 31 octobre 2002





Gary Stewart 792 / 5043

Kick Ass Records Inc. and Untamed 797 / 5073

John Harris 806 / 5137

Don Berns and Scot Turner 810 / 5163

Brenda Plowski, University of Waterloo and

Ayanna Dick, Wilfred Laurier University 823 / 5235

S.O.N.I.C.S Radio 829 / 5277

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation 852 / 5429

Noel Rebick 869 / 5551

Edwin M. Stanson 871 / 5573

Derek Boudreau 878 / 5617

George MacDonald, Mayor of Midland 884 / 5652

Dr. Stephen Ely 893 / 5705

Crystal Baird 906 / 5793

Wayne Hussey 916 / 5860

Eric Spath 923 / 5903





CKMW Radio Ltd. 935 / 5982

Larche Communications Inc. 936 / 5994

Edward F. Bauman and Rae Roe 939 / 6012

Trust Communications Ministries 946 / 6054

Sound of Faith Broadcasting 950 / 6077

Douglas E. Kirk 956 / 6113

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. 960 / 6143

Telephone City Broadcast Limited 966 / 6185

Global Communications Limited 975 / 6233

Rogers Broadcasting Limited 976 / 6240

Kitchener, Ontario / Kitchener (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Thursday, October 31, 2002

at 0835 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

31 octobre 2002 à 0835

5035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

5036 Mr. Secretary.

5037 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5038 We have reached Phase III of this public hearing, in which we will hear third party interventions.

5039 This morning we will start with an intervention presented by Mr. Gary Stewart.

5040 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before Mr. Stewart starts -- make yourself comfortable -- I would like to mention to all the intervenors that we look forward to your presentation. It is all very important to us, and it will form part of the public record.

5041 Please do not be concerned if we don't ask questions. Your presentation will probably be quite clear, and we have your written comments as well. So don't be concerned if there are no questions from the Panel. Thank you.

5042 Any time you are ready, Mr. Stewart.



5043 MR. STEWART: Good morning. I have a bit of a head cold here, so I might sound a bit froggy.

5044 I thank you for the opportunity to address the Commission.

5045 My name is Gary Stewart, and I have been involved in the entertainment industry in Kitchener-Waterloo for approximately 23 years, primarily in the 19-to-24 demographic but also we spent years running concerts and dance events for youth 14-to-19.

5046 From 1979 to 1985 I worked for Conestoga College and the University of Waterloo, booking pubs, concerts and doing promotion as a fulltime job with the Federation of Students at the University of Waterloo.

5047 As far back as 1980 it was quite evident that this market was grossly underserviced for radio, for the local youth market, and they have never truly had a voice at radio.

5048 Even with our limited concert budgets at the university level, we were forced to buy radio time at Toronto market stations like CFNY, still currently 102.1, The Edge.

5049 In 1985 my wife Susan and I were operating a roller skating and special events facility in Waterloo, which also brought in some big name concert acts, such as Stevie Ray Vaughan, UB40, The Cult and numerous Canadian rock acts, with no local station to help promote our shows.

5050 We were again forced to spend ad dollars outside our market.

5051 In approximately 1994 the last local CHR station, AM-109, flipped to an Oldies format, and our last local station was gone. Even at this time, the AM format skewed a much younger demographic which had limited effect on listenership with our 19-to-34 market.

5052 My wife Susan and I currently run a 1600-seat nightclub called Revolution, open two days a week, and aimed at the 19-to-24 crowd -- we are in Waterloo -- and also a 550-seat restaurant which is geared to a 25-plus crowd.

5053 Although CHUM station KOOL-FM, which is an AC rock station, has given us a vehicle to promote to the 25-plus market, the 19-to-24 age group is still underserved by radio.

5054 Local station CHYM, which is very soft and geared to a female audience, might show an impressive accumulative listing number, bit it is from sheer lack of options for local listeners.

5055 The 19-to-24 year old clubbers and university students are not tuning into CHYM -- unless their mother is in the car, that is.

5056 During the last two years alone, Revolution nightclub has spent $211,940 with Energy Radio out of Hamilton, owned by Corus. They recently flipped to a country format and left some 70,000 local listeners and our live-to-air Saturday nights out in the cold.

5057 We have spent $43,000 in the last two years with Z103.5 and also $142,541 with 102.1, The Edge, both based out of Toronto.

5058 This is a highly unserved radio market, with only 42 per cent of listeners in the 12-to-34 demo listening to local stations.

5059 Do the kids listen to radio? Absolutely.

5060 We have seen the success of promotions and live-to-air broadcasts with out of market stations.

5061 But our message is definitely not as effective as it could be by co-opting with local businesses for events and promotions. Our dollars could be better spent promoting local DJs and talent, helping to create a vibrant music scene for the KW market.

5062 Global's commitment to spending $2 million to promote local talent and a possible dance/music festival is what drew me to support their bid. We bring local DJs into Revolution on a weekly basis beyond our resident DJs, which are the people who would DJ every single Friday and Saturday night.

5063 We also support an amazing group of DJs who spin and release records on their own record labels, for which they have no local station that dedicates any time to the genre of the music that they produce.

5064 I look forward to working with Global, to introduce them to the scene in Kitchener-Waterloo and Cambridge. I would relish the opportunity to be involved in a dance/music festival which encompasses all rhythmic styles of music, including pop, R&B, hip hop and elctronica.

5065 One thing is for certain: the kids still listen to radio and they still want to dance.

5066 Thank you.

5067 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And so do their mothers sometimes, too.

5068 MR. STEWART: That's good to hear.

5069 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stewart. We appreciate your being here today.

5070 Mr. Secretary.

5071 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5072 We will now hear from intervention no. 2, Kick Ass Records and intervention no. 6, Untamed, as a panel.


5073 MS MALKAH: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

5074 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5075 MS MALKAH: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. My name is Rena Malkah, and I am President of Kick Ass Records.

5076 With me here today is Lindsay Guion of G-Force Entertainment, Los Angeles, who is the Manager of Untamed.

5077 The girls were not able to be here today, because one has an exam at university, and the other two unexpectedly were recording the past two days for 14 hours solid, and tomorrow they are going to be in Montreal. They were just missing too much school and they were exhausted, so we are going to represent them.

5078 I hope you understand.

5079 Kick Ass Records is an independent record label with national distribution. We represent the interests of Untamed, which is a developing young dance-pop group. They would benefit tremendously from having a radio station such as The Beat in Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge.

5080 Actually Kim, one of the girls, is from this area. She lives in Guelph.

5081 Their debut album Go All Out, which is a quality release recorded in the best studios with the best producers.

5082 For smaller record labels, radio airplay is essential to the success of our artists. If we don't have their music played on radio, it is extremely difficult to sell their records. If we are unable to sell their records, it is difficult to continue to contribute to the development of Canadian musical talent, because obviously we need to have that income to further invest in that talent and hopefully create some new stars along the way.

5083 Independent record labels such as mine do not have huge budgets for marketing and promotion. Major labels can spend thousands of dollars on marketing their artists. So as a record label with an artist that is in the dance-pop genre, we found that it is very difficult to get airplay for Untamed.

5084 We found that many of the stations have said they are either too young or that they don't support dance-pop music because they are appealing to younger people; that they are not programming to young listeners, and that Untamed would not fit.

5085 With some stations that actually do program to younger audiences, we have also been told that they are now only playing urban music and therefore would not play the type of dance music Untamed has recorded.

5086 We have even been told that pop music is dead and only urban forms would be considered for airplay.

5087 Kick Ass Records does not believe that either dance or pop music is dead, and thankfully some radio stations have already shown support for Untamed.

5088 We are grateful that Mix-FM in Montreal has been a big supporter.

5089 Actually, that is why the girls are going to Montreal tomorrow. They have a fundraising event for breast cancer where the announcers are all shaving their heads. It's called "Shave to Save". The girls are singing their current single live-to-air and then prerecording the top 8@eight.

5090 Also, thankfully, yesterday they were added to CHUM-FM in Toronto, and they are in some smaller markets. But those are the only two BDF stations that are playing them right now.

5091 They have about 25 smaller stations, secondary markets. But it is really the BDF stations that show the numbers that are important for their success.

5092 We are very proud of the success that Untamed has achieved so far. They have recently, through Lindsay's efforts, been signed to the world's largest talent agency, Creative Artist Agency, in Los Angeles. So they are now represented by the same agent who represents Destiny's Child, one of the most successful dance-pop artists.

5093 Untamed has recently performed showcases to enthusiastic audiences in Montreal, Toronto, Las Vegas, Hawaii and New York.

5094 They have also secured a major sponsorship deal with Rock Hard Nails and they have their own nail polish colour. They are the only Canadian artist who has this deal and the only one not on a major label.

5095 Actually, we would like you to enjoy Untamed's music and their nail polish, so we brought you a gift for yourselves and your staff today. We have some to give out to you so that you can see what their nail polish and their music is like.

5096 Their video has been played on YTV, MuchMusic. Again, being independent, it was on a limited rotation on MuchMusic and on MusiquePlus.

5097 They have been on programs like Mike Bullard, and they have performed at numerous charitable events and fundraisers.

5098 They have also recently recorded both the Canadian and American national anthems and have been booked to perform for the New York Islanders hockey team, and they are opening the baseball season for the New York Mets at Shay Stadium in New York.

5099 Even with the success they have had so far, Untamed is still finding it hard to get a lot of radio airplay in Canada. I believe that a rhythmic CHR radio station such as the one Global Communications is applying for here in Kitchener would make a big difference, because it will play all kinds of dance and urban music.

5100 It would also appeal to a young audience that would love to hear the music of Untamed.

5101 We know that the kids do love the music, because we receive fan mail. I guess because of their Web site on the Internet today, they are able to be discovered all over Canada and the U.S. They are getting fan mail all the time. The kids do love their music, but they are not able to hear it on the radio.

5102 If young listeners could hear the music on the radio, I know they would love it. The beat would really help Kick Ass Records and all other dance-pop artists to get more airplay, which in turn will help Kick Ass Records build a fan base for their shows and their CDs.

5103 Thank you for letting me tell you about Kick Ass Records and Untamed.

5104 Lindsay also represents another Canadian artist, Sarena Paris, who is also in the dance-pop genre.

5105 Perhaps he could say a few words, as well.

5106 MR. GUION: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

5107 I am here today to support the efforts of Untamed and Kick Ass Records. What brought me to Canada was the new recording of Untamed. Right now I am planning to start recording the new album for Untamed.

5108 What I have noticed in the past is that new music, new producers and new artists are driving the industry today.

5109 Having said that, I think it would be a great opportunity for the new artists here in Canada to support this format, which is Top 40 music.

5110 That is pretty much all I have to say.

5111 I'm sorry, I am a little bit nervous because I was just told of this situation yesterday, and I didn't know that I was coming here. But after knowing what the cause was, I decided to come and support.

5112 I think Rena did a pretty good job of explaining Untamed's position. That is our main reason for being here, to represent their best interests.

5113 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for being here.

5114 Commissioner Cram, do you have a question?

5115 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Excuse my ignorance. Alithea, Kim and Daniella are Untamed.

5116 MS MALKAH: That's right.

5117 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can you tell me how old they are and what they are doing. It sounds like they have an academic life in addition to their music. And where are they from?

5118 I'm sorry, I should have looked it up on the site.

5119 MS MALKAH: No problem. I would be glad to tell you more about them.

5120 Daniella is the youngest member of the group. She is 15. She is in grade 10 and is attending high school. When she is on tour, she takes a tutor with her. She is usually out of school at least one week a month.

5121 Alithea and Kim are in university. They are both in first year, but this is their second year of first year. They took half of their courses last year and half this year, to keep the load at a level that they could handle. Next year they are planning to take their courses online, because we are figuring that they will be on tour quite a bit.

5122 As I mentioned before, Kim is from Guelph. Alithea and Daniella are sisters. They were born in Toronto and they live in Richmond Hill.

5123 They have all been performing since they were quite young. They are actors, singers, dancers. They have done musical theatre.

5124 Alithea had a leading role on 13 episodes of a YTV series and has done a lot of commercials.

5125 They are quite experienced, and they are very dedicated. They are very serious. They work very hard.

5126 For example, in the last two weeks, they spent one weekend shooting a music video. Three times a week they work out with their personal trainer so they will have nice figures.

5127 They have choreography sessions twice a week, go to singing lessons twice a week. They are constantly working. They are writing songs. They are writing with other producers. They are writing all their new material. They are recording.

5128 They are going on promo tours, like going to Montreal where they are going to be at that radio station. They are also doing an interview there with some magazines.

5129 They are working very hard, in addition to keeping up their school work. They all happen to be "A" students, as well.


5130 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

5131 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you again, both, for coming. Please convey our best wishes to Untamed and best of luck in their careers, and in yours.

5132 MS MALKAH: Thank you.

5133 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

5134 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5135 Intervention no. 3, Hi-Bias Records Inc., is not available to appear today. So that intervention will remain on file as a non-appearing.

5136 We will now hear from Mr. John Harris.


5137 MR. HARRIS: Good morning.

5138 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Harris.

5139 MR. HARRIS: I am here in support of the Global application.

5140 I operate a post secondary school that specializes in music industry education. Global has come up with what I believe is an extremely valuable component to their application, which includes scholarships for post secondary education specializing in the music industry.

5141 The Commission may find of interest what the school does.

5142 We are small and do very little advertising, so I am not sure how many of you are aware of its focus and thrust, et cetera. In order to appreciate this component of Global's application, it might be helpful to understand what Harris Institute is all about.

5143 In 1989, 24 leaders of the music industry got together with the purpose of creating the best music industry training anywhere in the world. Most of the faculty refused to take any money, and the school got off to an extraordinary start.

5144 It is now 13 years later, and it is working extremely well. Our graduates are not only working in the industry, but they have in fact achieved positions running organizations, companies, studios, record labels, et cetera, throughout the spectrum of the industry.

5145 Our primary focus now is finding and selecting the best candidates to go through this training, with the purpose of strengthening the Canadian music industry.

5146 We are currently turning away fully qualified students.

5147 What Global is proposing as part of their application fits perfectly with the direction that we are going, in terms of assisting with the process of finding the best candidates to go through this process.

5148 It is our view that in this country at this time the Canadian music industry continues to have its own struggles, and in some cases increasing struggles, and that one of the answers may be through delivering the best training possible.

5149 We can do that to a certain degree, but in the end it is the quality of the students that will make the difference.

5150 Global's application fits in perfectly with that aspect of what we are doing in the future.

5151 I very much support Global's application.

5152 I also should mention that Harris Institute really does not benefit whatsoever from the fact that there are scholarships included in their application. We are full. We have been full. We will be full. So there really is no direct benefit financially to Harris Institute.

5153 I am in very strong support of the action that they have taken to address what I believe is a fundamental element in terms of the future of the Canadian music industry, which is the educational aspect.

5154 That is number one.

5155 Number two: From what I understand of all the applicants, Global is committing to the greatest degree of Canadian talent development, both in terms of monetary contributions, $2.1 million, including showcases, scholarships, et cetera, but also, and I believe equally as important, is its commitment to 40 per cent Canadian content.

5156 As I am sure all the Commissioners are aware, the issue of Canadian content is very, very important to the fact that there is a Canadian music industry dating back to 1971. It is the life blood of a surviving and hopefully growing music industry, and Global's commitment to commit a larger percentage than the 35 per cent mandated I think is bold and extremely valuable at this moment in time.

5157 I am in support of the Global application, and I hope the Commissioners will agree to support it as well.

5158 Thank you.

5159 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Harris. We appreciate your coming today.

5160 Mr. Secretary, please.

5161 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5162 We will now hear from interventions nos. 5 and 9 as a panel, Messrs. Don Berns and Scot Turner.


5163 MR. BERNS: Being bigger, I guess I get to go first.

5164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Please proceed in whatever order you wish.

5165 MR. BERNS: Good morning. My name is Don Berns, and I come before you to recommend that you choose the Global application for a licence in Kitchener-Waterloo, because I strongly believe that the area, and indeed most areas in our country, needs a radio station that plays what is rapidly becoming known as rhythm music; not just dance music and not just hip hop urban or rap R&B, but a combination of the two.

5166 There is no radio station in the KW market nor any station whose signal reaches this market that currently plays these two important genres of music.

5167 As a DJ, a radio host and radio programmer, I have focused my attention primarily on electronic dance and secondarily on urban music for the past eleven years, and I have witnessed the explosion in popularity of these kinds of music in this country, and particularly in southern Ontario, which for many years was serviced with a combination of electronic and urban played on radio station CING or Energy 108, whose signal was received strongly in this area.

5168 When Energy changed its format to what I will refer to as "all purpose" dance, the target audience was relatively small, comprised of young adults looking for the latest hits and clubgoers who wanted to hear the music that they danced to at parties and nightclubs.

5169 The mix of music offered by this station during most of its broadcast hours fulfilled this need. The specialty programs in the remaining broadcast hours featured progressive dance music and hip hop, to name two of the kinds of music played, and cemented Energy's reputation, bringing in more than respectable ratings.

5170 My contribution to this programming was under my DJ name of Dr. Trance. From 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. every Saturday night I played electronic dance music that encompassed a wide spectrum of sound that could only be called alternative.

5171 Energy and I hoped that we could attract club and partygoers with this music, but the program proved to be so successful that in fact it launched my career as a club and party DJ, resulting in me being hired to play in many locations throughout Ontario, including Kitchener-Waterloo, where through personal contacts I discovered that many people were listening to Energy 108.

5172 Moreover, we determined that there were in fact many more listeners who wanted to hear this kind of music than just those who went to clubs and parties since the weekly cum. of the Dr. Trance radio program reached 54,000.

5173 That was ten years ago. In 2002 I can assure you that the number of people who seek to hear rhythm music has increased dramatically. The number of nightclubs in this area that feature successful electronic dance music and hip hop/urban theme nights is, in my opinion, over 500 per cent more than did in 1992.

5174 Major corporations sponsor DJ tours that always include southern Ontario. Major newspapers, such as the National Post and the Toronto Star, do feature articles on the music, the musicians and the DJs. And more and more people are making the music.

5175 But there is no longer any outlet in our area that plays rhythm music exclusively. Wherever I travel in southern Ontario, people by the dozens ask me what happened. Why can't they hear their favourite music on the radio?

5176 Aspiring DJs give me demo tapes. But unless I am promoting a party, I can't introduce their talents to a wide audience like I could when Energy 108 featured club DJs, not only on my program but also on other programs throughout the broadcast week.

5177 More importantly musicians -- and with this kind of music I should point out that many of the musicians are also DJs -- give me examples of their work. But aside from nightclubs and parties, there is no radio station on which I can play it.

5178 We have an extraordinary talent pool in southern Ontario, but their efforts are often either ignored or the lack of potential exposure for their work drives them to the U.S. or abroad to get signed to labels.

5179 Why? It is simple. With the lack of radio that plays electronic dance music, Canadian labels don't feel the need to sign acts in this genre.

5180 Now we have the opportunity not only to have a station that plays electronic dance but will also spend a sizable amount of money to cultivate and encourage area musicians to make the music.

5181 The Global application also includes money to present this music to the public, not only through airplay but also with the annual exposure of a music festival.

5182 Since I have concentrated here on electronic music, you might ask if the two genres of music that are proposed work together. In my opinion, they are almost inseparable.

5183 Most people I have encountered throughout the years in the electronic dance community have expanded their music tastes from hip hop and urban music that they enjoyed before they discovered what we also call electronica. Many people who like urban music are also aware of the many genres of electronic dance.

5184 I was very surprised recently in my capacity of imagining announcer for urban outlet FLOW-FM in Toronto that virtually none of the staff knew me as Don Berns, but almost 100 per cent of them knew Dr. Trance, either from attending dances and nightclubs where I played or from listening to my radio and Internet programs throughout the years.

5185 Whenever I go to clubs or parties that feature electronic dance in one room, there is almost always another room that features hip hop.

5186 There is no doubt in my mind that the two genres in fact go hand-in-hand. There is also no doubt in my mind that the Global application is the only application for a licence in the Kitchener-Waterloo area that will be responsible in presenting a mix of both kinds of this essential music to an ever growing audience that has nowhere else to hear it.

5187 Thank you for your time.


5188 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5189 Go ahead, Mr. Turner.

5190 MR. TURNER: I speak to you today in support of a dance music format for the Kitchener area as proposed by Global Communications.

5191 I have been involved with radio in southern Ontario for 22 years and with dance music even longer. In the early 1980s I created and programmed Canada's first commercial churban radio station CKMW based in Brampton.

5192 Churban was a combination of urban and CHR, which was very popular in the U.S. at the time but was never given a chance in Canada.

5193 From 1984 to 1992 I worked for alternative station CFNY based in Toronto, where I launched what I believe was Canada's first syndicated dance music program BPM, or Beats Per Minute.

5194 In 1992 I created the format and helped launch Canada's first full-fledged dance music radio station Energy 108, CING-FM, which was based in Burlington.

5195 Through most of the 1990s, under my guidance as program director, Energy 108 became one of the top radio stations for young adults in many regions of Ontario, including the Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph and Cambridge areas, and so successful was the dance format at Energy that it became a mainstay in the massive GTA Toronto region, often commanding number one ratings for 12-to-24 year olds and constantly in the top three standings for 18-to-34 year olds.

5196 A couple of quotes from Gary Dunford of the Toronto Sun from the mid-1990s:

Over half a million listeners danced to the beat of Energy 108. The Burlington-based dance pop station has doubled its audience from a year ago, a new contender in the top half of the charts.

Energy 108, 602,000, a 2.7 share; number one 18-to-24 and 12-to-24 age groups in Toronto.

Energy 108, a 3.8 share, 671,000 listeners, both up substantially from a year ago. The dance station has a hefty 15 per cent share of ages 12-to-24 listening.

5197 Back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, Canadian urban dance artist Maestro Fresh West, who was a Juno award winner, actually left Canada because of lack of radio support for his style of music. When he did come back to Canada, he launched a comeback song which came out in 1998, called "Stick to Your Vision".

5198 In that song he immortalized Energy with the words -- let me just quote a couple of lines from the song:

Back in '92 remember when your labels wasn't feeling me. Next year changed the scenery. Gave birth to your Energy.

5199 Not many artists write songs about radio stations, and certainly the inspiration says a lot.

5200 Dance music formatted Energy 108 was constantly the voice and music culture for young adults in Kitchener through the 1990s. The dance format of Energy was wildly popular in the KW areas, pulling top ratings, and was the catalyst in the explosion for a multi-million dollar dance club industry and many economical, beneficial offshoots resulting from the culture and business of dance music.

5201 Dance music formatted Energy 108 was Kitchener's radio station after continued success in this region. But failing success under new management in the target Toronto region, Energy changed format to country this past August, leaving a gaping format hole in the Kitchener region.

5202 Already proven and successful in this region, the dance format is the best choice for the underserved young adult demographic. The wide ranging dance format contains many genres and styles of all music that is predominantly rhythmic in nature.

5203 In the U.S. dance music is segregated and often does not include urban music such as rap, hip hop and R&B. In the U.S. urban and dance stand alone.

5204 In Canada dance music and the dance format includes rap, hip hop and R&B. This is an important distinction and is a reflection of Canada's tolerance, understanding and blending of cultures and styles, both as a people and by our music choices.

5205 At dance music formatted Energy 108 we signed on The Mastermind Street Jam, Canada's first commercial hip hop radio show. We signed on and supported the Dr. Trance show, a leader in its time slot with a massive audience, and gave sub-genres of techno, trance and house music styles their first ever mainstream voice in Canada.

5206 With young adults rhythmic and dance-oriented music is as popular as rock music, and often more popular.

5207 In the U.K., often seen as a trendsetter, today the turntable outsells the guitar as a musical instrument.

5208 Generation Y, or the so-called net generation, are currently between the ages of 10 and 20. They are twice in numbers of the previous Generation X and are the single largest most influential group since the baby boomers.

5209 In Canada their numbers have been put at 6.9 million. The highest concentration is in southern Ontario.

5210 Canada is inundated with lifeless, boring type play listed AC and hot AC radio stations. The number of radio stations catering to the youth of Canada continues today to be out of proportion. We need more youth-driven radio stations in Canada. We need more dance music stations. Rhythmic music and dance music is grossly underrepresented in Canada and desperately needed in this region.

5211 A dance music format offers the voice and, more important, the diversity of culture that is needed for young adults in this region. Clearly, we need more dance music radio stations in Canada.

5212 Kitchener would be a welcome addition. Thank you.

5213 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both very much.

5214 Commissioner Langford has a question for you.

5215 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Your interventions are perfectly clear, but there is a mystery hanging over this hearing and maybe you can clear it up.

5216 Why in the name of heaven did this Energy station in Burlington in a sense fail or decide that it was failing or decide it couldn't carry on? I don't know what the decision was.

5217 Here you are giving evidence of the success story of all time, and now they are doing country. I just don't get it.

5218 If you can't, that's fine; but perhaps you could cast some light on that. I don't know if it is relevant to these proceedings.

5219 I suppose it could be relevant if it is a dying format in some way. But it may just be my curiosity.

5220 MR. TURNER: There are many reasons for that, and people may have other opinions on it. I can give you my version.

5221 New ownership came in, and they wanted to broaden the format. They knew the dance music success with Energy but wanted to broaden it and reach a larger audience in Toronto. In some ways, it was a niche format.

5222 With the CHR experiment, Energy changed format to CHR in the late 1990s and it proved unsuccessful. They were not able to reach the goals they wanted to reach. There were other market influences. New radio stations came into the fold as well.

5223 All of these factors and the ratings in Toronto, which was the target for Energy; Toronto was the target. They started to fail in Toronto and reached a point where they decided to change format rather than fight it.

5224 MR. BERNS: By this time, I might point out, I was an outsider not working for Energy any more.

5225 As an observer, I think that part of the problem also could have been the fact that the 107.9 signal did not really cover Toronto thoroughly. It certainly didn't cover the east side of Toronto at all.

5226 This was something that was either overlooked or decided to be ignored by the new ownership. It was a difficult row to hoe; that plus there were two other stations in Toronto currently doing what they had Energy shift to. The competition was devastating to them.

5227 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It was kind of a two-step. They just didn't wake up one day and put on cowboy hats. There was sort of water in the wine and then a withdrawal and then the technological problem.

5228 That is very helpful. Thank you very much.

5229 MR. TURNER: You are welcome.

5230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Turner and "Dr. Trance".

5231 COMMISSIONER CRAM: We were entranced.

5232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5233 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5234 We will now hear from intervenors nos. 7 and 8 as a panel: Brenda Slomka from the Federation of Students, University of Waterloo; and Ayanna Dick from Laurier University.


5235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5236 MS PLOWSKI: Good morning. My name is Brenda Plowski. It was Slomka. I got married within the two weeks that I said I would speak on behalf of this application.

5237 THE CHAIRPERSON: All the best to you. That is wonderful.

5238 MS PLOWSKI: Thank you.

5239 I am the current President of the University of Waterloo Federation of Students, which is the union that represents undergrad students.

5240 I think one of the important factors is that there is also another university in this city, and that is Wilfred Laurier University.

5241 In speaking to the undergrad students, there is definitely a need for music of this sort because there is not currently one.

5242 Student life or social life with KW for a lot of the undergrad students is usually through the university. Two examples of involvement are at the University of Waterloo is the Breakers Club and the Hip Hop Club. There are over 100 students involved in the Hip Hop Club, and the Breaker Club has about 75.

5243 One of the really neat factors is that it is not specific to culture. There are a lot of different people. Some, like myself, starting off and learning how to do it and other people who are experts.

5244 One of the things is that there is not the medium and the music to continue being involved in those activities.

5245 I think another thing that really spoke to my students was the fact of the commitment that Global was making to the community. I know John already talked about the Harris Institute, but seeing things like that is a really good example of a company and an organization that is not just solely focused on themselves. That is very important for students, to see the benefit that we can get.

5246 I think Street Beat is another good example of on the job training that presents students with opportunities, if they want to cultivate their skills and learn. I think that is something that has really been attractive to students.

5247 When Global came to the Student Life Centre they asked "are you interested", and I think there were over 700 signatures that got submitted. I think that is key to the number of students that would like to see this.

5248 The last thing I wanted to leave is an example. There is a movie called Save the Last Dance. It is a story of a ballerina. She puts her dancing on hold for a bit and then she revisits it. She has to audition, so she does her traditional ballet and then she is asked to do a contemporary piece. In that she uses some hip hop music to dance to.

5249 I think one of the things that really is impressive to me is that there is a lot more people starting to get involved in this music, learning what it speaks about and what it represents. So it transcends boundaries, I think.

5250 I am very excited with the proposal that has been presented, and that is why on behalf of the students I am here to support that.

5251 MS DICK: Good morning. My name is Ayanna Dick, and I am a third year honours business administration student at Wilfred Laurier University.

5252 I am also the co-ordinator of our Hip Hop 101 class, which is a new class this year offering students a chance to learn more about the hip hop culture as far as dance and the history of it that is offered through our classes.

5253 Music has been a constant presence in my life. When I was young I sang it, wore it and lived it. The small elements that comprised my childhood were direct influences with my relationships with various genres of music.

5254 It is difficult for students who grew up in the Toronto area to keep up to date with the latest songs and styles when in Waterloo, as they are limited by the lack of variety in choices of radio stations.

5255 Currently, there isn't a radio station that captures the diversity of students currently in Waterloo and especially with the large influx of students that will be coming in next year. An even larger musical need will be created to satisfy the diversity.

5256 Music, whether urban, hip hop or dance, is an outlet for students to express, motivate and develop themselves. In the stressful environment that we are exposed to in today's school, it is imperative and beneficial to have a constant source of music that provides an escape from the everyday life and gives students a chance to relax.

5257 With the new radio station, students lose the need to continually download songs and burn CDs in order to receive the musical entertainment that they look for during the day.

5258 I can guarantee that if you were to walk around the campuses in the Waterloo area and ask students who have an interest in hip hop and dance music what radio station they listen to, you may not get an answer.

5259 Why? Because there isn't anything that specifically targets what we like and what we want to hear.

5260 By allowing The Beat to be heard by the residents of Kitchener-Waterloo, a segment of music listeners who have been overlooked and ignored over the years will finally be given some attention.

5261 Thank you.

5262 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both very much.

5263 I think the point you made about the film Save the Last Dance is very good, because it combines not just the music but the dance style, if I recall the movie well. It is very interesting.

5264 I am pleased to see two young women leading the students' unions from the universities.

5265 You remarked on the downloading. Could you clarify why you think the radio station would be more attractive when we know so many people have quite often a large collection sitting at home of their own selection.

5266 What is the difference that the radio station would make?

5267 MS DICK: With the radio station we can keep up to date. We can know what the new songs are. The radio station also offers a little more than music. They help us know what is happening in the community: what concerts are coming up or what clubs are having the different nights.

5268 So it keeps us informed along with the different musical cultures that are happening in the community aside from the new music that is entering the market.

5269 MS PLOWSKI: Can I also add to that.

5270 I think that a lot of the downloading and a lot of the copying happens on computers in the MP-3 format. I can't give you exact numbers, but a lot of times that stays on their computer. So driving and being at school and stuff, there are opportunities.

5271 I know people carry Walkmans still, and I think there is still an opportunity. Students do listen to the radio. A lot of times in cars when you are driving, people are constantly radio searching because we are trying to find the music that we want to listen to. But it is not there.

5272 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I appreciate your response, and we all appreciate your being here this morning.

5273 Mr. Secretary, please.

5274 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5275 Intervenor no. 10, Mr. Aaron Romeo, is not available this morning. His intervention will remain on the record as a non-appearing intervention.

5276 We will now hear from S.O.N.I.C.S. Radio.



5277 MR. MOSES: Good morning, Madam Commissioner and fellow Panelists. Thank you for allowing us to be here this morning to partake in this process.

5278 We are here, of course, intervening with Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.'s application to this area of Kitchener-Waterloo.

5279 I would like to tell you, first of all, that it is kind of with regret that we are here. We would like to have been here in support of this application. However, due to the way things rolled out in the last eight or nine months, we felt compelled to come here -- we felt we had to come here really -- to have this point brought forward.

5280 I will just read for you from my information that I have here that I will be giving to you.

5281 As I say, we very much would have liked to have been standing here in front of you in support of this application, not just for AVR but also for the local people this station would serve. Unfortunately, we at CKRZ broadcasting out of Six Nations were not given that opportunity.

5282 That is because we were never told about the application at our back door here, even though we have been in the process of trying to set up an exchange of programming and use of our on-air personnel with Aboriginal Voices Radio.

5283 As a fellow Native broadcaster, we can appreciate Aboriginal Voices Radio's desire to roll out this much needed service to as many urban centres as possible and as quickly as possible.

5284 As Mr. Farmer said in his presentation, this is 40 years overdue.

5285 It is certainly true that a national radio network linking and uniting the Aboriginal population across Canada, which can reach out to our brothers and sisters around the world, is overdue.

5286 However, it must be said that there are already some 200 Aboriginal radio stations in many First Nations communities across this land that have been providing for some years, to a great degree, the same content as is being proposed by AVR.

5287 These stations have track records of success and provide much needed programming to their communities, both Native and non-Native. We know from our own experience that non-Native people listen to our station as well, and CKRZ is one of these successful stations.

5288 As an Aboriginal entity and broadcaster, we at SONIC CKRZ have been gracing the airwaves for more than 12 years on the most populated reserve in the country. Six Nations has a membership of over 21,000 people, of which more than half live on reserve.

5289 We have built up a following and a reputation from coast to coast across Canada as being one of the best Aboriginal radio stations in Canada.

5290 We have become a source of reference for other communities and have a wealth of experience and expertise to draw from. These communities continue to come to us and ask us for our input; coming down and wanting to listen to our programming and asking us if they can get our programming so they can rebroadcast it into their communities.

5291 They come down to see how we are set up, how everything works; whether it is advertising, whether it is production, so that they can take that information back and facilitate it and implement it in their own communities.

5292 We fully understand also the need to support the idea of a national radio network, one that can inform our Native artists, culture and languages, and a place for employment of Aboriginal people, both technically and on-air.

5293 Having said that, please allow me to tell you something about our recent experience and future concerns of the application of Aboriginal Voices Radio in the Kitchener-Waterloo area.

5294 As I am just sitting here, I realize that I didn't introduce myself.

5295 I am David Moses, and I am the Executive Director of CKRZ Radio.

5296 We are SONIC CKRZ are aware of Aboriginal Voices Radio's application in other large urban areas across Canada, of course. Over the past six to eight months we have had some limited conversations and meetings with Aboriginal Voices Radio, initially meeting with Gary Farmer and Mark MacLeod sometime back in February or March of this year.

5297 That was one meeting. We sat down and they asked us for some support. They were looking for some support. We discussed the possibility of sharing our programming and CKRZ on-air personnel at that time. AVR expressed great interest in our blues/rock DJs and news programs.

5298 However, there was no mention at that time of any application in the Kitchener-Waterloo area. Kitchener-Waterloo is really felt to be right in our back door. We understand, of course, that it is not going to be broadcasting directly into our area, and hopefully we can address that in this presentation as well.

5299 We appreciated being contacted at that time and were encouraged by the words that we heard from them, but we wanted more information of course. We wanted to have something written down, and we wanted a business plan that we could present to our own board of directors to say this is what is happening and this is how we can get involved with this national network.

5300 We never received anything. We didn't receive any information.

5301 In fact, several months passed and I contacted Mark MacLeod around August-September to see what was happening at their end. We were told things were moving forward, and we were asked if they could use our staff for test market in Toronto area.

5302 Again, no mention of any application that was going to be coming forward into this area.

5303 At that time I had several members briefed on the possibility of going to Toronto and working with AVR. We made up a demo CD. We put people's programs and voices on that was then sent in to Toronto for Mark to listen to and critique and get back to us on what he thought about the possibility of using certain people, et cetera.

5304 We even tried to set up some tentative dates for us to go in and see the AVR studios, and that was in the process. It never worked out because of time scheduling.

5305 Then on September 30th I received a call from one of the local television networks and asked if we wanted to comment on this upcoming community meeting for Aboriginal Voices Radio in Kitchener-Waterloo, to which I said there wasn't aware that there was one.

5306 The next thing is, not having heard about the meeting and about the set-up at the station, I contacted my board of directors to see if we should have any concern or comment on this development.

5307 Really for the next 24 hours we were all wondering what had happened. We couldn't understand. We had these ongoing conversations, and we couldn't understand why we had not been told about this. We were wondering what this actually meant. We didn't know if it was just an oversight.

5308 Of course, we understand that we didn't have to be told, but we had this relationship and we were confused. We didn't really understand why if we were trying to work together, especially in terms of using our programming. That programming would possibly be rebroadcast, especially into this area again, if they were setting up something.

5309 I then came to the community meeting here in Kitchener-Waterloo, along with one of my board members, to hear what they were planning to present.

5310 With an interest in protecting our present and future initiatives for providing local programming and having financeability to do so, that's why we attended this meeting.

5311 It was pointed out earlier in this process during AVR's presentation here that the Kitchener-Waterloo area is above average in accessing advertising dollars. However, as I am sure you may be aware, the Aboriginal market for advertising is very limited. We know that from our own experience in being set up and operating for the last 12 years.

5312 I myself worked through the advertising department, and I can tell you that there was one point in time where trying to get advertisers -- there was one particular point where a mall I had worked on for two months literally trying to get them to be happy with some kind of a process where they would see the results of their dollars coming back into them, it was pulling teeth trying to get them.

5313 And by no means is it expensive to advertise on our radio station, not compared to the other radio stations. We know what they charge, and our rates are not expensive. So I know what it is like.

5314 I am just thinking that once the initial novelty of this station in operation wears off, it may become difficult for them to sustain the advertising dollars they need for local programming.

5315 Retaining and maintaining advertisers is not easy. If another station outside of our market area were to impact on our revenues, even if they are not broadcasting into our footprint area, that would impact us on a financial level and on our programming.

5316 Local advertiser revenues available and the potential impact on CKRZ, both now and in the future, is a major concern, especially if local AVR programming becomes threatened in Kitchener-Waterloo through lack of advertising and then, out of survival, they decide to approach businesses in the CKRZ footprint, taking much needed financial support away from our station and market.

5317 By their own admission, AVR has said that they have not yet secured or sought out any advertising in this area; nor did AVR talk to us about how that would impact our revenues.

5318 Without a track record of success or a definite plan to see how they would participate as a broadcaster, locally and nationally, we have no way of knowing how AVR intends to effect its advertising plans or expansion over the next five to ten years.

5319 If they are successful, they could of course apply for an increase.

5320 We are locked into our footprint area. We cannot expand out of our footprint area. We are locked into that area. We understand that.

5321 If AVR were to say let's expand, if they expand their footprint and it overlaps into our area, that could seriously impact us again, and I think also create some confusion in the area as to where do people want to spend their dollars.

5322 Do we want to go to Six Nations? It's regional. It's a local station. Or do we go to the AVR network, which again is regional, but it is also national.

5323 There may be some confusion set up there in terms of how people and corporate dollars may be wanting to be spent.

5324 Although AVR has contacted many community stations, of which CKRZ has admitted being one of them and is willing to openly encourage and has encouraged exchange, we have never received any written formal communication to establish this so-called forthcoming exchange of personnel and programming.

5325 In retrospect of our experience, this has left us with doubt and to some degree mistrust of any involvement with Aboriginal Voices Radio and its sincere desire to partner and build a true network that will follow through on its claims.

5326 All in all, the application by AVR to establish a station in KW leaves us with serious concerns for our wellbeing, especially as an independent station surrounded by larger market stations who impact on our market area already.

5327 It seems that AVR is paying lip service. It is saying these things, but again, we don't have any agreement. We don't have any of this stuff on paper. That is essentially part and parcel of the concern.


5328 MR. LEBEL: Excuse me, Mr. Moses. Your time is up.

5329 MR. MOSES: Thank you. I was just finished.

5330 May I just...?

5331 MR. LEBEL: Yes.

5332 MR. MOSES: Thank you very much.

5333 We fully support AVR's desire to establish a national Aboriginal network, but it can only be done with strong communications and mutual respect, including a desire to understand that dreams can come true but that they will change along the way to fruition.

5334 Perhaps as Commissioner Williams pointed out, Rome could have been built in a day but only if the architects have the right tools, equipment, communications and team effort behind the dream.

5335 Thank you; merci.

5336 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Moses.

5337 Commissioner Cram.

5338 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Moses.

5339 And beside you is...?

5340 MR. MOSES: I'm sorry, this is Walt Juchniewicz. He is our technical advisor.

5341 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Good. I am going to talk about contours, one of my favourite topics. My eyes glaze over.

5342 I have AVR's contours here. Have you seen those?

5343 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: I have. Let me introduce myself.

5344 Walt Juchniewicz. I am the President and CEO of Juch-Tech Inc. and also owner of the Hamilton Teleport in Hamilton, Ontario.

5345 COMMISSIONER CRAM: All right. You have looked at the contours. Is there a conflict with your station in terms of contours, or are they mutually exclusive?

5346 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: The intervention isn't necessarily a technical intervention. The reality of the contours and the coverage -- as the Commission knows, there is another station on 100.3 in this area, which actually at that particular time S.O.N.I.C.S did not intervene. If anything, they were encouraging that station to go on.

5347 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I understand contours is just theoretical, which is why my eyes glaze over when we talk about it.

5348 But theoretically the contours then do not overlap, and your frequency, Mr. Moses, is actually being used here in KW.

5349 MR. MOSES: The 100.3 frequency is being used, yes, as a university station.

5350 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Do I understand your concern then to be the limited Aboriginal advertising market?

5351 After 12 years, can you explain why it is limited?

5352 MR. MOSES: I think that perhaps part of the answer is because of our station and the way it operates. We have a lot of volunteers, for instance. We have some 40 volunteers who provide a lot of our programming and keep us on the air.

5353 Monday to Friday through the daytime hours we operate with full staff, and we provide block programming essentially. Morning is country and afternoon is sort of classic rock. In the evening we have a variety of people who come in and supply us with programming, whether it be more country, whether it be language programming. We have programmings that run talk shows. We used to have jazz. We have all kinds of programming that run the gamut of every style of music just about for young and old alike.

5354 That is what our station is about. It's about making sure that the community has representation.

5355 In order for us to go out and sell to one particular advertiser, saying "you are targeted here; we can really target your audience", I think that is part of the problem.

5356 There is no way for us to gauge that except that when we sell advertising, we go out and we say: Is the advertiser happy? People who have advertised with us to a large degree are very happy. They get the results.

5357 In terms of saying we have this percentage of the market, because we are not a formatted radio station it is a bit more difficult in that respect.

5358 It is a small station. I think that adds to it, as well.

5359 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: If I can add to the Commissioner's concerns, when I built CKRZ back in 1992 it was actually a drop-in frequency with high constraint protections. We have actually stepped on the toes of dropping this frequency on a number of very generous broadcasters out of Toronto. At the same time, because of the station being so long in existence, it actually has a limited coverage area.

5360 Therefore, its market no longer has a regional growth. It has actually a regional shrinkage, as the rules change from other applicants, such as applicants in Toronto. We knew about the Kitchener-Waterloo application, that applicant at that particular time. They did it all within the rules. They did it all within the maximum spectrum use. We had no choice but to support that actual application.

5361 At the same time we also know that if we don't watch it, or if CKRZ in this case doesn't watch it, it has to look at something on how to have a growth plan, how to have a survival plan.

5362 CKRZ over the past year has been on Galaxy 11 out of our Teleport in Hamilton for experimental and educational purposes for other reserves, where they can't actually have Internet to get access to CKRZ.

5363 I personally have put CKRZ on Galaxy 11 in the open so that when there is training to be made for what Mr. Moses has actually mentioned in their intervention, they actually could hear how the programming works. They can get the help from CKRZ and S.O.N.I.C.S.

5364 I have been involved from a technical standpoint in helping a number of these small communities to build their radio stations. It is just one of these labours of love for myself. It is just something that is noted and worth mentioning here.

5365 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were here, I gather, on Tuesday when AVR was here. You know there are no plans right now to solicit local ads.

5366 MR. MOSES: Yes, I am aware that they did make that comment.

5367 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So your concern is in the future if they choose to solicit local ads because the market is so limited that they may well impinge on your advertisers? Is that it?

5368 MR. MOSES: That is a concern from a local level. Instead of this area just being a repeater for them, and they do set up and the local people -- I understand they would be the ones who would have to go out and get the dollars to support their own station here in Kitchener-Waterloo.

5369 So that would be a concern, yes. That is a definite concern.

5370 If it became a strain for them to find the advertising dollars they need to sustain their own programming, regardless of where they are broadcasting: There's a community, Six Nations, right there. That's an Aboriginal community. Let's go there and find the businesses there that want to advertise.

5371 If they did that, that could seriously impact our ability to extract advertising dollars from our own community, because they would be pulling them out of the community.

5372 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That is one concern.

5373 Are there any other concerns?

5374 MR. MOSES: Yes. There is a very strong perception that Kitchener-Waterloo and the station here is closer than say Toronto. even though it may not physically be, it might be marginally.

5375 There is a sense that it isn't Toronto. This is our sense. Toronto is a huge city with lots of dollars and lots of people. It's not as much a concern for us to think of Toronto in that regard of impacting us.

5376 In fact, we have a lot of our own members in Toronto that want to hear our broadcasting.

5377 Kitchener-Waterloo is a smaller area, and we are just concerned that there won't be that -- well, if there are fewer people, there are fewer people to listen, fewer people to access.

5378 We talked a little bit about the confusion that might be set up in that. Where do people want to put their support, even corporate dollars? Even if there were no regional station here, AVR's advertising team may start looking even without a station here to access people in the area.

5379 That might also impact us in our own growth future down the road to looking for advertisers as we grow. They might say we are already advertising with AVR, so we don't really want to put money in here.

5380 Walt, is there anything you can add to that?

5381 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Maybe I could just clarify that.

5382 That is again the issue of soliciting local ads.

5383 MR. MOSES: Yes, it is.

5384 COMMISSIONER CRAM: They have said that they will not solicit local ads; and if they wish to, then they will apply to us to do that. They have to do that.

5385 Does that give you any comfort?

5386 MR. MOSES: Well, some. Again, I can only go back to saying what I stated. We saw that in writing. If they would make us aware of that as well perhaps in the future and how that might impact us, that might alleviate some concern on our part.

5387 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: From our last meeting last night, I think it is more of a marketing viability confusion factor.

5388 I'm sorry, I am the technical person, but I am trying to just help Mr. Moses.

5389 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The only way that can have an impact, the confusion impact, is if somebody is coming into the market and looking for money in the market from AVR.

5390 If they are not coming into the market and looking for money, looking for advertising money, and if they had to apply to us, which then becomes a public process, to be able to access local ads, at that point you could assess whether you would oppose it.

5391 Would that make sense to you?

5392 MR. MOSES: Yes.

5393 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I am not saying we are doing it.

5394 MR. MOSES: Understood.

5395 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would that provide you with at least some comfort necessary to work out your expansion plans and your future plans?

5396 MR. MOSES: In terms of advertising, yes.

5397 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And the confusion factor, I think it is your job to make sure people know who you are. I am sure you do a very competent job.

5398 I understand that 84 per cent of current audience comes from the Brantford area. So clearly you have done some fairly good branding there.

5399 MR. MOSES: Thank you. We are trying to improve ourselves all the time.

5400 In fact, just out of curiosity, technology is now at the point where it is allowing us and every radio station, small or large, to expand and take on new areas that they can get themselves heard.

5401 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

5402 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5403 Commissioner Demers.

5404 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5405 On the point of serving the area here, if we take for example the fact that AVR applies and wants to serve, so it is one way of serving the needs of the people in this area, do you see other ways of serving the area than the one that is proposed by AVR?

5406 If we take it from the point of view of people on the street who think they need a station of this type, is there another way to serve Kitchener-Waterloo?

5407 MR. MOSES: We ourselves in the last couple of years, since I have been involved as the Executive Director, have been starting to look because of the desire from people for Aboriginal people to have more representation, we have been looking at ways, as I mentioned, for us to expand ourselves.

5408 As mentioned earlier, our frequency is taken here. But we ourselves would like to possibly look at that in the future.

5409 We don't know if there is a way of perhaps regaining our frequency here or even applying to the frequency that is available for ourselves. We are not that far away from Kitchener-Waterloo that the people here could access our production facilities, could even have their programs recorded here and broadcast over our network, et cetera.

5410 I think there are definite alternatives available for the people here to have service in different ways.

5411 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: Perhaps I could add to that, Commissioner.

5412 When we first went on the air and I did a lot of driving around with the spectrum analyzer and a field strength meter, and all those great things, and a map, CKRZ was already serving Kitchener. I know the .5 millivolt contour, a lot of people would laugh and wouldn't do it. But the service before the actual service that is in right now interfering with CKRZ, CKRZ was quite well heard and did a nice job from a coverage standpoint -- although maybe not on paper, but the radio worked quite well.

5413 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: But since then, the signal is not available here.

5414 MR. JUCHNIEWICZ: Well, because there was a collation application on behalf of another applicant. From that time on, CKRZ has got nothing but interference. That is why it is even more shoe-horned.

5415 Its coverage has been so limited that it had no choice -- I know several years ago from Amos Key -- to apply and even intervene against the Crystal Beach allotment, because we were getting to much interference already.

5416 Originally the application that was made for 100.3 in Kitchener-Waterloo was a 50-watt, non-protected service. Then all of a sudden it became a Class A1, that is a protected service today. That should be recognized.

5417 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: This is the first time that your station raises this issue with the Commission or other institutions, Mr. Moses?

5418 MR. MOSES: The issue of...?

5419 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: The fact that, from what I hear you saying, maybe you would be interested in serving the Kitchener-Waterloo area. I imagine that some of your students are here and some families that are here. Is that right?

5420 MR. MOSES: Yes.


5422 Thank you, Madam Chair.

5423 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5424 There are no other questions, so we would like to thank you very much for coming with your intervention today.

5425 MR. MOSES: Thank you very much.

5426 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5427 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5428 We will now hear the intervention by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Madame Suzanne Lamarre and Monsieur Paul Monty.


5429 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

5430 MR. MONTY: Bonjour, Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission. Thank you for hearing us today.

5431 My name is Paul Monty from Regulatory Affairs of the CBC. With me is Suzanne Lamarre from CBC's Engineering.

5432 We have come to Kitchener today to intervene specifically against Aboriginal Voices Radio's proposed technical parameters and the harmful effect it would have on CBC Radio One service, and we are not here to oppose otherwise the merits of the application.

5433 The technical issue is the choice of frequency, 102.5, channel 273.

5434 The CBC broadcasts on 102.5 as well, in Shelburne, and Shelburne is only 70 kilometres away from Kitchener. To use the same frequency so close to our service area would be detrimental to the quality of our signal. In fact, so close as they would be, there would be a head-on collision.

5435 We are asking the Commission and Industry Canada to help avoid that collision from taking please.

5436 Suzanne.

5437 MS LAMARRE: You have before you a coverage map that shows the coverage contour from CBLA-FM-4, Shelburne. Inside that contour there are two interference zones:

5438 One, in green, is the result of an incoming signal from Buffalo on 102.5.

5439 The other one, in red, is the extent of the interference we expect if the proposal from AVR is approved with the parameters requested. This area of interference, where 1600 people live, is not covered by any other Radio One frequency, neither from Toronto nor Paris.

5440 As you might appreciate looking at that map, this interference zone is significant.

5441 I should explain at this point how we came to select 102.5 for Radio One service in Shelburne, then explain the reasons why 102.5 should not be licensed in Kitchener.

5442 In 1998, when we planned to implement a rebroadcaster to reinforce Radio One service in the Shelburne area, we identified, not 102.5 but rather 99.5. During the certification process, however, we were told that our application was technically mutually exclusive with another application on the same channel, 99.5 in Bracebridge.

5443 Given that the application in Bracebridge was for a high power class C1 station and ours was for a lower power class A, we agreed to accommodate, for the sake of spectrum efficiency, and to find another frequency for our application.

5444 We turned to 94.5, but that came in conflict with several applications in waiting on 94.7 in the Hamilton area. With the challenge of finding a frequency in Hamilton, we felt again that as a responsible spectrum user, we should find yet another frequency, and we delayed our application.

5445 Finally, 102.5 was the choice, but with a minor disadvantage: we would have to accept some interference from a Buffalo station operating on the same frequency. We accepted that disadvantage, given that most of the interference zone was already covered by our Toronto signal.

5446 But accepting, as an incoming service, interference from an incumbent station does not mean that we now have to accept further interference within the same zone from future incoming services.

5447 AVR's consultant may well have told Industry Canada that our concern should be discarded because our service area already suffers from interference from a signal originating from Buffalo.

5448 We disagree. In fact, we believe it is one more reason to insist on the strict compliance with the protection ratios requested in Industry Canada's Broadcasting procedures and Rules, Part 3, the very standard which ensures high technical quality of FM broadcasting in this country.

5449 The applicant's technical consultant may also believe that the damages from that collision between the signals can be repaired. We believe the nature of the damages is such that nothing can fix it.

5450 No FM receiver, whether it is a Walkman or high tech, even if it is attached to a roof-top antenna mounted on a rotor, can adequately differentiate between two signals on the same frequency, unless one signal is at least ten times stronger than the other.

5451 This is the required protection ratio. Short of this, the desired to undesired signal ratio is not in compliance with Broadcasting Procedures and Rules, and we can well presume the resulting damage to the incumbent station, CBAL-FM-4 Shelburne.

5452 It is not something that the current relaxed spacing standards that Industry Canada has recently implemented for FM broadcasting can resolve either. These new standards may accommodate second and third adjacent channel or frequency usage, but they do not address co-frequency issues.

5453 May I add that it is not the existing station that must prove after the fact the damages a new broadcaster causes. No existing broadcaster, large or small, public, community or private, would accept this situation.

5454 I should also point out that casualties from the signal's collision will not be only the CBC's listeners. AVR's future listeners would be, as well, with a signal on 102.5 in Kitchener and in its surrounding areas that would be trapped between two other signals on the same frequency: one coming from Buffalo, the other from Shelburne.

5455 This would be spectrum overcrowding, not spectrum efficiency.

5456 For all these reasons, broadcasting from Kitchener on 102.5 would not be feasible for any applicant.

5457 As a comparison, let's note that Kitchener is located farther away from Toronto than it is from Shelburne. Would we give a single thought to using in Kitchener a frequency that is already on the air in Toronto?

5458 Assuming that a Toronto station would be the only potential interfering signal, would we think, for example, that 93.5, channel 228, currently on air in Toronto may also service adequately Kitchener with a new broadcaster?

5459 It is difficult to imagine how anyone could make such a proposal.

5460 There could be an alternative, as AVR itself noted, in the event the Commission approves an application by CIZN-FM Cambridge to vacate 92.9, channel 225, and move to another frequency. If so, AVR could use 92.9.

5461 92.9's coverage is already known, the installation is already up and running, and it does not receive interference from Shelburne. So it would provide for a better service than 102.5, channel 273, could ever give in Kitchener.

5462 MR. MONTY: In closing, I would mention that the CBC has made great efforts to ensure that southern Ontario residents, from Wingham to Huntsville, receive adequate CBC Radio One service. AVR's proposal would compromise a good part of that effort and jeopardize the adequate service the CBC has built.

5463 This is why we are here to ask that the technical parameters rigorously comply with the Broadcasting Procedures and Rules and thus avoid causing interference to broadcasters who already provide service.

5464 In our view, this would help preserve the quality and integrity of the Canadian broadcasting spectrum and help maintain CBC Radio One service in this area.

5465 Thank you, Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission.

5466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Monsieur Monty, Madame Lamarre.

5467 Commissioner Cram has some questions.

5468 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Good morning.

5469 I am looking at your contour map, and if I can put it in very simple non-engineering language, the green-lined area is the interference with Buffalo. In that same green-lined area there is a red-lined area that would be the interference with AVR's proposal.

5470 MS LAMARRE: That is correct.

5471 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The argument of AVR is that you already have interference, so what's the matter with having more interference.

5472 MS LAMARRE: That is correct.

5473 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Right. You have put that argument to Industry Canada?

5474 MS LAMARRE: Yes, we have.

5475 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And they have yet to decide. Is that it?

5476 MS LAMARRE: Industry Canada, to our knowledge, has given technical certification. So it seems that it is something they seem to be willing to live with.

5477 Industry Canada people told us that they felt that since we had accepted interference from the Buffalo station, in their minds it meant that we agree not to service the area.

5478 We disagree. There was never such a mention in our engineering brief.

5479 The fact that there is interference coming in from Buffalo doesn't mean that there is no service at all. It means that some areas will get the signal nicely, and others won't.

5480 As you are aware, electromagnetic waves don't follow a designated pattern. We wish they did. It would make everybody's life so much simpler. But they don't.

5481 The coverage areas that we calculate are based on statistics. So statistically, a signal may be there one day and may not be there another day.

5482 To add on another interference source, it is going to make matters worse over an area that is not serviced by another signal.

5483 If you look at the map, you will note that there is a very straight cut-off to the red area interfering zone. Waves don't do that. The reason why there is a cut-off there is because it is the limit to where our Toronto signal goes.

5484 In effect, the upper part of the green area from Buffalo is covered by the Toronto signal, but the lower part is not. This is where most of the interference would be coming in from these signals from AVR in Kitchener that were approved on 102.5.

5485 When interference is on the same frequency, unfortunately there is really nothing we can do about it except as a listener, with your brain, trying to tune out the sound that you hear that is coming from both stations.

5486 We have had unfortunate experience like this on Radio One signals in other parts of Canada where our listeners were receiving interference from a station that had increased its power in the U.S. and that complied with the letter of the rules. But still there was interference.

5487 No matter how many visits we could make to these people, no matter how many receivers we could try to choose, it doesn't make any difference. Both signals are on the same frequency and you cannot tune them out.

5488 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you and I actually understand, which is surprising for me.

5489 If we then said "AVR, you can't have this frequency because of interference", aren't we going down a slippery road? Aren't we second-guessing Industry Canada?

5490 Do we have the jurisdiction to do that?


5491 MS LAMARRE: I guess I am not in a position to answer a legal question. You have that ability.

5492 But on the technical side, I don't think it would be second-guessing Industry Canada. In this particular case Industry Canada has chosen to set aside part of the rule, as they have discretion to do so when they are of the opinion that there would be no harmful interference.

5493 We disagree. We have hands-on experience that we can relate to to confirm that.

5494 If there is a slippery slope, it is actually in allowing broadcasters to not comply strictly with the rules, especially in crowded areas.

5495 I also need to point out that this is going to be detrimental to CBC's signals. The use of 102.5 in Kitchener itself, it is going to be a very difficult thing to put on the air. Kitchener will be trapped between our incoming signal from Shelburne on the same frequency and the incoming signal from Buffalo.

5496 We do in Shelburne have interference from Buffalo. Kitchener is much closer to Buffalo than Shelburne is. The same station will cause interference to the signal.

5497 If must say that if I could see a benefit to the sacrifice, I probably would not be here today. But I do not see that benefit.

5498 This is going to be a sacrifice on the part of CBC's signal, a sacrifice which we have put ourselves in a position to make with regard to the proposed signal by choosing this frequency in order to help deployment of other stations in Hamilton and in Bracebridge.

5499 We really don't see what the benefit is going to be to have 102.5 in Kitchener, to have a very limited coverage zone which will be trapped between two interfering signals on the same frequency.

5500 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

5501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5502 Commissioner Langford, do you have a question?


5504 You are very clear, by the way. I just want a little more.

5505 What I am trying to understand is the red hatched area at the bottom of this survey map you have given us, is that a worst case scenario or a normal case scenario or a best case scenario?

5506 Is that a fair question?

5507 MS LAMARRE: Yes, that is a fair question.

5508 It is a normal case scenario. It is the case as calculated for what we call the 50,50 curves of Industry Canada.

5509 I must say that in an area like this one, it is the likely scenario.

5510 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Most of us are aware, particularly in driving at night and sometimes even at home at night, for some magical reason we get a signal from some place we never imagined possible. It comes in clearly on our radio, and suddenly you are listening to southern Pennyslvania or Virginia, or whatever.

5511 What would happen here on one of these clear nights?

5512 I know this is speculative, but what could happen to this red hatched area at that point?

5513 MS LAMARRE: Nothing different from what is on this map. What you are describing is actually a phenomena that only happens in the AM band. It does not happen in the FM band.

5514 In the FM band, there are some variations during the day and the night, but it is not what you are describing in the AM. It is taken into account in this standard case scenario.

5515 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I do drive a very old car. And now the news is out.

5516 Actually, I do have a car that is so old it only has an AM radio in it, I am ashamed to say. But I am planning to get with the program, as my children say, very soon.

5517 That is good news.

5518 Now I would like to go on the other side and have a little more of your expertise from the point of view of the applicant here, rather than the intervenor.

5519 Let's turn this around, and instead of looking at your area from the bottom of your map into the amoeba-shaped area, let's assume we are in AVR's region and we are looking at it from their point of view.

5520 Assuming they are successful, assuming we buy Industry Canada's approach, assuming we reject your argument completely, and they launch, what are their listeners going to hear? What is the damage to them?

5521 MS LAMARRE: If you look at their own coverage maps which they provided with their engineering brief, they clearly identified both sources of interference, the one from Buffalo and the one from Shelburne.

5522 There is going to be quite a large area that is depicted on their map where their listeners will receive interference, both from Buffalo and from Shelburne, in the northern part of their coverage.

5523 As it goes farther south, obviously they are getting farther away from our source of interference but closer to the Buffalo source of interference.

5524 So on the bottom part of their coverage area, they will be experiencing more interference from the Buffalo signal than they would from the Shelburne station.

5525 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I suppose the simplest way to conclude this is that both maps are accurate, then, in your view. Is that a fair statement?

5526 MS LAMARRE: Do you mean their coverage map and the map that we are presenting here?


5528 MS LAMARRE: Yes.

5529 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

5530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Demers.

5531 COMMISSIONER DEMERS: Just to confirm that the 1600 people are in the red part at the bottom of your map.

5532 MS LAMARRE: Yes. The estimated 1600 people are located only within the red hatched area of the map.


5534 Thank you, Madam Chairman.

5535 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5536 Thank you, both.

5537 As you said, Madame Lamarre, there is also the point of view that the areas of interference are to some extent unpredictable. You said it would be easier if we could predict things more accurately, but it is somewhat unpredictable.

5538 In the circumstances, as you well said, it is now over to the Commission to look at what the value is in sacrificing, as you put it, the reception here and what is in the public good.

5539 I appreciate your contribution to our discussion.

5540 MS LAMARRE: Thank you.

5541 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, would this be the moment for our coffee break?

5542 MR. LEBEL: Yes, Madam Chair.

5543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5544 It is ten after ten. We will be back in 15 minutes, at 10:25, with the next intervenor.

--- Upon recessing at 1010 / Suspension à 1010

--- Upon resuming at 1030 / Reprise à 1030

5545 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

5546 Mr. Secretary, could you call the next intervenor, please.

5547 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5548 We will now hear from Mr. George Kennedy.

--- Pause

5549 MR. LEBEL: Not seeing Mr. Kennedy, that intervention will remain on file as a non-appearing intervention.

5550 We will now hear from Noel Rebick.


5551 MR. REBICK: Good day.

5552 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5553 MR. REBICK: My name is Noel Rebick, and I am one of the owners of Dooly's. We are an upscale billiard house, actually a billiard lounge.

5554 We have found that radio is our best way of getting our message across to our market, and more particularly radio that is geared toward a certain age group, which format seems to designate.

5555 We have been a big user of the applicant's other station in the Toronto GTA market, 103.5, and we have had great success. Our sales have increased dramatically.

5556 For instance, we have a location in Vaughan which was doing about $600,000, and this year it will do over a million. That is a phenomenal increase in business.

5557 So we are very sensitive to radio as being the way to get our message across.

5558 The general stations where they just have listenership numbers doesn't really help us, because it is the age demographic that makes the difference to our business.

5559 In other words, I could advertise on the most expensive radio station there is, with the highest numbers there are, general numbers, and I wouldn't do as well as operating with a station that is geared toward our market, which is the 19-to-25 year old.

5560 It is format. It is the music that drives the listener. They listen to the station because of the music and the quality of the music and the way it comes up.

5561 I find that the station in Toronto has a tremendous grasp of what works and what they like.

5562 A perfect example of that -- and I don't know if this is pertinent or not, but I am just trying to tell you my side of it.

5563 Another large station which was in a similar market trying to come up with a similar format ended up going country and western because they could not compete successfully for the market because of the quality of their format. It is as simple as that.

5564 When I heard that the same ownership was making this application, I rallied to their support because I feel we have in this market -- we will be opening a store in Guelph. We have one in Waterloo. We will be opening one in Kitchener, and we already have one in Cambridge.

5565 To have a station that is run in a similar fashion to the station in the GTA would be a great benefit to us.

5566 We are using other stations in this market, and I am not saying they are not doing a good job for us. But the bottom line is to have another station similar to the one in the GTA would be a very big bonus to us.

5567 As I said, when they told me they were making this application, I am here to rally to their support. And I am very hopeful that their application will be granted.

5568 Thank you very much.

5569 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming to give us your point of view during this process.

5570 Mr. Secretary.

5571 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5572 The next appearing intervenor is Edwin M. Stanson.


5573 MR. STANSON: Boy, it's been hard staying awake!

5574 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will try to pep things up for you.

5575 MR. STANSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

5576 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Stanson. That certainly got our attention.

5577 MR. STANSON: Why would I be here, a senior who has absolutely no interest in CKMW Radio, which has made an application for a new radio station in Kitchener-Waterloo, a station featuring an urban Top 40 musical format called Jamz, a station I never listen to. Yet here I am as an intervenor.

5578 I was born and raised in KW, a life-long resident. I have fortunately been blessed with a large extended family of near and far relatives and friends.

5579 At an August wedding of a darling niece, attended by my many nephews, nieces, grandsons, granddaughters, all in that 12-to-34 age group, it was brought to my attention the possibility of a new radio station.

5580 I have a grandson who is currently a sophomore at Wilfred Laurier University. Why would a grandson be telling me about a new radio station?

5581 Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I have the reputation in the family as a "letter to the editor contributor". Suddenly I am being hustled by him, by other members of the family, to write to you, the CRTC, on their behalf and on behalf of the more than 30,000 university and college students in our area, to let you know that instead of listening to out of town stations, a local station with the format of their favourite Toronto station, Z103.5, a sister station to Jamz, is enthusiastically supported by many.

5582 Grandpa, they said, a Top 40 music format station is what you listen to as your hit parade station. A hit parade station never loses its popularity like other formats that come and go.

5583 We heard earlier of a high energy station finally had to go back to sons of the pioneers. But with a hit parade station, it's there.

5584 I sensed this was a real grassroots support for the station of their choice.

5585 I was still cool to the idea. Then I was advised that one of the goliaths of radio broadcasting, which already has two local stations, had the gall to apply for a third.

5586 They reminded me of Charles Dickens "Oliver": more, more, more. To allow a goliath a stranglehold on our local radio audience is simply wrong, wrong, wrong.

5587 Grandpa, you must help us fight. I was in.

5588 In my personal research, I found that this small broadcaster, CKMW Radio, works harder to please their radio audience, in my opinion, than all the others combined: for example, an extensive community calendar of what's happening, focusing on local school and community events, high profile campus events, plus many others.

5589 Some highlights: Canadian Music Week; Student Crimestoppers; twin scholarships. They seem to have a keen insight of their target audience and its needs. The list seems endless.

5590 Ladies and gentlemen, CKMW radio has avoided what I consider the crass approach of trying to buy an audience with expensive monetary gimmicks like "show me the money", "give me my money", "fly me to Jamaica", "fly me to Hawaii", or wherever.

5591 CKMW Radio with its other stations has earned a devoted audience by constantly improving their format, keeping them current and meaningful, and by worthy endeavours that are beneficial to the local community.

5592 CKMW Radio currently successfully operates three radio stations in southern Ontario, giving almost 20 years of meritorious service under the code of the Broadcasting Act to its devoted audience.

5593 CKMW Radio has the resources, the experience and the business acumen to guarantee the success of 94 Jamz in Kitchener-Waterloo.

5594 From their CEO Mr. Bill Evanov to the newest employee, I have found there is instilled a fervour never to be satisfied with mediocrity. They plan to provide the highest service to their radio audience.

5595 Here, ladies and gentlemen, we have a legitimate, qualified competitor. But more important, it behooves you to introduce genuine competition on behalf of the radio advertisers; that they receive true value for their advertising dollar.

5596 I have found in my business experience that when a person, one person or a company, dominates the marketplace, whether it is a product or a service, the cost of doing business with them gradually becomes more expensive and fair market values cease to exist.

5597 We are all gougers at heart -- perhaps excluding me.

5598 George Bernard Shaw, a great English dramatist -- the gentleman at the end there has the George Bernard Shaw look.

5599 Sir, all professions, he said, are conspiracies against the laity. I am sure he would agree that all corporations that provide unnecessary service, be it hydro, telephone, cable, radio -- is radio a necessity? I think so.

5600 Marilyn Monroe said the only thing she had on at night was her radio.

--- Laughter / Rires

5601 MR. STANSON: I think there are conspiracies against the consumer. I think they are all trying to skin us.

5602 When I look at all the major applicants for this radio station, really they are all wolves in sheep's clothing -- including, I must say, CKMW. They all bleat what a wonderful, wonderful asset they will be to our local community, as I am sure they will be. But let's face it. They are all after it for the money. It's that simple.

5603 Give our local radio advertisers a break. The wolf with the smallest bite and the smallest appetite really doesn't hurt you too much, but the big bad wolf with his ravenous appetite will always take an arm and a leg.

5604 CKMW has given extraordinary value -- I don't know if you are aware of that -- to their advertisers on their other stations. That alone must be worthy of your consideration.

5605 Ladies and gentlemen, CKMW Radio is the right choice at the right time. They deserve your vote.

5606 Thank you.

5607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stanson.

5608 Commissioner Langford.


5609 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have nothing to add to your intervention, but I did want to remind you that poor Oliver Twist wanted more not because he was a glutton but because he was starving.

5610 MR. STANSON: Exactly. These big guys are starving too, you know, the way they talk.

5611 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: They have bigger appetites. An elephant has to eat.

5612 THE CHAIRPERSON: We thank you for being here today, Mr. Stanson. There is certainly one thing we know for sure after listening to you: you are an asset to this community.

5613 MR. STANSON: Thank you.

5614 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5615 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5616 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Derek Boudreau.


5617 MR. BOUDREAU: Good morning. I will do my best to be as witty as Mr. Stanson. I am not as well prepared, but I am hoping I am as well versed as he is.

5618 Actually, I felt it quite amusing being here and being able to hear Mr. Stanson speak. I found it interesting that the majority of views that he has offered today are very similar to mine. When you look at the differences in age, I think that my experiences in the community would be a little bit different than Mr. Stanson's; not as well earned. I think he has a few more years than me.

5619 My name is Derek Boudreau. I am actually here speaking on behalf of the application for CKMW, Z103.5 out of Toronto as her sister station.

5620 I am here for the reason that I have had the experience of being a DJ in the community here for the last ten years. I also work for a company here locally, which is kind of an interesting company. It is called The Stag Shop. It is an adult novelties company, and I had the privilege of buying radio time from different companies, including Z103.5 in Toronto.

5621 I basically wanted to discuss my experiences with them and explain to you why I feel the application they have submitted should be accepted.

5622 I have been here in the community for the last ten years, and I have had the privilege of working in club here and seeing the kids and being around the university area.

5623 Actually, the club that I work in is directly located between two major universities, and we also have a college here, giving us approximately 35,000 to 40,000 people that are in the age category that the application that has been submitted is gearing toward.

5624 A majority of the music that I find that the kids are listening to today, approximately 75 per cent of it, is of the urban radio format, Top 40. At any one given time you can walk into a club and pretty much hear that format.

5625 I am not saying specifically that this format is geared specifically to the younger kids. Like my brother-in-law being 45 years old, it's unexplainable. It's funny to watch him listen to it. But he does.

5626 Basically, I think the opportunity to have a bigger business or have Kitchener-Waterloo being, as far as I am concerned, somewhat of a corporate town with Rogers, Corus and CHUM being the dominant factors here -- the opportunity for anybody to get anything that is not from these three radio stations, and obviously of the format that is being presented, is not available.

5627 Unfortunately, the local flair that is associated with these radio stations is geared toward more of adult contemporary type station.

5628 With the younger people we have here in town, I think this would be a great opportunity to present something a little bit different; give retailers an opportunity that would normally not want to have to mortgage their home for a second time to get any effective advertising on air.

5629 The rate cards that are available from the three existing radio stations are of such a nature that would require that second mortgage to get anything effectively done.

5630 With my experience being a media buyer for this company that I mentioned before, I had quite a unique product. It was adult novelties. Obviously it is quite a sensitive area in that we can't show our product -- that eliminates TV there -- and the idea that we can't physically speak about the product.

5631 My experiences with CKMW were that we were able to take something that was not generally accepted by the community and take that taboo feeling away from it; present it in a humorous light with just a general acceptance. And I was able to get a point across with the radio station and their help that I was not able to find through any of the larger networks.

5632 I have a brief experience that I would like to share. I choose not to mention any names, because obviously I am not here to slam anybody or show any discontent for any other company that I have dealt with.

5633 I had a situation where we had approached them with the unique product that we have, and we wanted to allocate a certain amount of dollars to advertising in somewhat of a different way with the radio station actually in the Toronto area.

5634 After meeting with the superiors, they mentioned to me that my $25,000 that was being offered was not a significant enough amount of money to do business, taking into consideration the fact that through that existing umbrella we were already spending a considerable amount of money.

5635 My experience with CKMW was the idea that we can help you and tailor things that would work extremely well in our community.

5636 The one thing that got me excited this morning is when the gentleman there with the glasses mentioned -- sorry, there is a big microphone and I can't see you.

5637 You were wondering why a dance music radio station that obviously is so successful would fail. I had actually written the majority of my letter from an editorial that I had actually found from the GTA area. I thought I would offer a little bit of insight and answer that question, if I may.

5638 Originally, Energy 108 was actually conceived and put into place by Mr. Evanov and his management team, and it was originally sold to Corus Entertainment, at which point in time there was a real big war.

5639 To recite a few of the things that were inside this editorial, the idea is that the big guns were kind of shooting down the little guy.

5640 And the whole David and Goliath idea is that Z103.5 still exists after having these big corporations, who made a futile attempt to save the radio station by changing the frequency, by offering a superstation format where they basically took three different radio stations in the GTA, one also in London and put them all together as one called a superstation, where you can actually be in central Ontario and listen to the same thing by the same people all the time. It didn't work.

5641 So as far as I am concerned, showing that the independent radio station is going to offer a certain flair that the big corporations are simply not able to offer.

5642 I personally think if given the opportunity, any one of the three major broadcasters will come here and simply pump out a cookie cutter format of what already exists, and when it becomes a little less profitable for them to do so they will change what it is they are doing. And the next thing you know there will be another format pumped in from Vancouver.

5643 Well, I don't care about Vancouver personally. That was just my opinion.

5644 I find it really interesting that, when given the opportunity, the major corporate people will do nothing but attempt to downsize the little guy and -- which I find quite amusing -- lost.

5645 I think it was a shame that one day you turn on the radio and it is dance music radio, which is enjoyed by many, and then the next day you turn it on and, with very limited warning, you are listening to Garth Brooks. I like Garth Brooks. I have no problem with him. But I think it was rather amusing that they weren't able to continue because the little guy was considerably more successful.

5646 I hope that wasn't too jumbled for you. I must apologize. This is not my chosen time of day. I have a little man at home, and he likes to keep me up for a good majority of the day and night.

5647 Thank you very much for your time, and I hope that your decision is easy for you.

5648 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for being here.

5649 Mr. Secretary.

5650 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5651 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Mr. George MacDonald, Mayor of the Town of Midland.


5652 MR. MacDONALD: Good morning.

5653 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. MacDonald.

5654 MR. MacDONALD: Madam Chair, Commissioners, first let me introduce myself.

5655 I am George MacDonald, the Mayor of Midland. I have been the Mayor of Midland for the last eight years.

5656 Thank you for allowing me to appear before you today on behalf of Larche Communications Inc. in support of their radio station in Kitchener.

5657 I think it is important for you to know a bit of the history of the radio station.

5658 The station went on the air in 1959, a local family, the Armstrongs, with the then 1230 CKMP on the air and ran it as a local community station -- the station that people could turn to for local news, information, entertainment and, most importantly, support: support of local charities, local sports, local artists -- CKMP, a Midland station in every way.

5659 In 1982 the station was sold to Telemedia. Not much changed in the first ten years. Then when the recession of the early 1990s hit, it affected so many businesses in our community and the radio station was hit hard.

5660 At the same time, technology in broadcasting was growing by leaps and bounds. So it seemed to make sense to run two stations, Midland and Orillia, out of one office.

5661 Except for a couple of salespeople and the one lonely announcer, CKMP was run out of Orillia, another Telemedia property.

5662 Although it looked good on paper, this setup really started taking its toll on CKMP. Staff morale was at an all-time low. The community was outraged that the station was not accessible to them, and probably most damaging was the serious lack of local news and information.

5663 Also during the same time the stations of Midland and Orillia switched from AM to FM and switched their name to Kick FM. Although the sound was better, it certainly didn't help the Midland station get back to the listeners, nor did it help our listeners get back to the station they sorely missed.

5664 This went on until 1997 when Paul Larche, then the manager of the Midland-Orillia-Muskoka operations, was offered an opportunity to purchase Midland. He knew that he could turn it around as long as he focused on the local area.

5665 Once the purchase was made, the changes came fast and furious. He increased his staff in all departments, invested money in the station and equipment, but most importantly he was able to give Midland back its station.

5666 Paul is a well-respected businessman in our community because of this.

5667 He also applied for and got a power increase, which has meant great things for our town. Midland has a lot to offer to both residents and visitors. The increase in power has meant better marketing for all businesses in Midland, including such tourist destinations as St. Marie Among the Hurons, Wye Marsh Wildlife Centre, Discovery Harbour.

5668 In addition, community events like Canada Day Celebrations, Midland's Winterfest, Penetanguishene's Winterama and the Georgian Bay Poker Run enjoy great success due to the coverage of Kick 104-FM.

5669 If there is an event going on in our community, Kick is there. I see their community cruiser all over town, always supporting fundraisers for one thing or another. The Kick's marine team promotes safety on the waters of Georgian Bay and gives frequent and accurate marine weather forecasts and even been known to assist boaters in trouble.

5670 In the winter Kick has a snowmobile team that once again promotes safety on the trails throughout our region, as well as conditions for snowmobiles, snowmobilers and skiers.

5671 What really stands out for me is the local news coverage. More often than not you will see the reporter from Kick at our council meetings and then hear the reports the next morning on the air. I can certainly attest to that, because I go out walking each morning and I do turn on the local radio station to get the overnight news, the weather, the sports and be fulfilled when I get back after an hour to know that I heard all that went on overnight on Kick 104.

5672 It is felt that Midland has got its station back and a small independent broadcaster owns it. I, for one, feel very positive about that. It is like Kick has gone back to its roots, back to what I think is supposed to be in this country -- community-focused, community-driven.

5673 I can tell you without a doubt that Kitchener will be very fortunate to have such a broadcaster as Larche Communications Inc. added to their successful businesses.

5674 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I fully support Larche Communications in their bid for a station in Kitchener. If we are any prototype of a radio station that is acceptable to the community and to the people that use it, we are 100 per cent behind that station.

5675 Thank you for listening to me this morning.

5676 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

5677 Commissioner Langford.


5678 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So how do you feel about Larche?

--- Laughter / Rires

5679 MR. MacDONALD: Do you really want me to go into detail?

5680 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I just wanted to clarify that point a little.

5681 Seriously, you might be able to help me, and perhaps others, with an issue that is kind of underlying this whole process, and not just in the Larche application but in many of the applications here.

5682 I am not even sure I can verbalize it. It may just be something we sense, a kind of undertone or something, and it may not be relevant. Anyway, I wouldn't mind your wisdom on it, if you can share it.

5683 I'm sorry that we couldn't give you any notice of it.

5684 Obviously, anyone who gets a licence here, whether it is Christian radio, country and western radio, Top 40 CHR, will eventually become a local radio station. You are going to lose your star resident Mr. Larche to us at least for a while if he comes here to set up. He may end up back in Midland, but he is certainly going to have to take the responsible business approach, if he is successful, and get in here and watch the store.

5685 So everyone will become local in a sense.

5686 What I want to ask is whether there is a further issue as to whether you actually are a resident, a long-time resident. Does that make a difference, in your view? Or can you come from out of town and set up and then capture the local feeling, just as well as someone who has lived here for 30 years?

5687 Does that question make sense to you?

5688 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, it does. As a Mayor of a municipality, you can pay taxes in two communities. We have no objection to that, ever.

--- Laughter / Rires

5689 MR. MacDONALD: For Larche Communications, my sense is that yes, you can come into a community and be a success story because you can become part of that community. And Kick 104 in Midland is dedicated to the community, the surrounding communities.

5690 We have four small municipalities close to Midland. We have Penetanguishene, Tiny and Tay. It goes to a wide area. Kick 104 goes to a wide area around Midland and so on.

5691 Just this morning, for instance, before I left -- I left Midland shortly before 6 o'clock. For any of you who want to experience the first freezing rain, we had it this morning.

5692 Kick 104 is on the news early in the morning with the road report to tell everybody the conditions, to slow down. Some of them probably were not listening to the radio, because they passed me at 130 klicks.

5693 I think that, in itself, that information getting out to the public is a positive thing. And that just doesn't happen when there is a freezing rain episode. That happens each morning that that traffic report is out there, so people can follow along.

5694 It includes the community of Midland. We are very proud. Larche Communications does a great job for us, and we support it fully.

5695 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You may pass them in the ditch on the way back and get the last laugh.

5696 So it is not necessarily being a long-time resident owner as long as the owner is local and picked up the local spirit, is what you are telling us.

5697 MR. MacDONALD: I definitely agree that they certainly picked up that local spirit in Midland. And that is not just the Mayor talking, because they do talk to a lot of people from the community at large and get that sense of community from all of the local people.

5698 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

5699 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for driving down in the freezing rain, albeit cautiously. We wish you a safe return.

5700 Thank you for being here.

5701 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you.

5702 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5703 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5704 The next appearing intervenor has not arrived yet, so we will now hear from no. 19, Dr. Stephen Ely.


5705 DR. ELY: Mr. Secretary, I have some notes for the Members.

5706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Whenever you are ready.

5707 DR. ELY: Good morning. My name is Stephen Ely. I am a practising doctor in Ontario.

5708 I wanted to take a few minutes this morning to share with you some of my reasons in support of the application made by Trust Communications Ministries.

5709 Of emphasis what I want to do this morning is maybe something that your committee has maybe never even heard before. But I hope over the course of the next couple of minutes I will be able to help you see things the way I see them as a practising doctor in Ontario.

5710 The notes I have given you I will be going through very quickly. Many of the items in there -- actually, all the items you have are taken from the StatsCan Web site, so they are all verifiable.

5711 I want to talk to you specifically about the benefits of this application to the people in this Kitchener-Waterloo region.

5712 You have probably already heard this week about the benefits of the social aspects of this organization, its strong emphasis on family, on community, its approach to how it intends to run this station financially, all being under the excellent managerial guidance of Mr. Scott Jackson, in particular.

5713 Every excellent effort requires a visionary, and personally I believe that Mr. Jackson represents that.

5714 This station is about helping people feel good. It is about helping them be encouraged. It is about helping them make wise choices.

5715 If you could sit where I sit as a doctor in this province, it is very scary to know that there isn't a drug, there isn't a drink, there isn't a prescription, there isn't a surgical technique that is really most appropriate for many of the problems that plague our community, people who are our neighbours.

5716 I see this every day, and quite often it is very disheartening because you see lives that are spinning tragically out of control. You want to be able to help them, but you don't have anything that you can give them within your scope of practice.

5717 This station is not about religion. It really is about life. I want to create a strong foundation for you now with that.

5718 If you would, flip past the first article that is in there. This is an article called Religious Observance. I want you to skip that one. This is out of Canadian Social Trends, Autumn 1998, a Statistics Canada publication. Its reference is noted down in the corner.

5719 By the way, Mr. Secretary, I do have additional copies for all of your staff, as we previously discussed.

5720 Let's quickly go over some things that are drastically affecting our community, some statistics from StatsCanada.

5721 You realize that the highest levels of schooling for the population over the age of 25 in this region in Kitchener is 11.8 on a general basis versus Ontario, which is 11.7. Over the age of 25, 17.1 in Ontario is 18.8.

5722 We have levels of education that may be -- this is still statistically significant, but we have educational levels that are not as high as what is going on in the provincial levels.

5723 If you take a look at the next page, I want to point out the fact that we have more than twice as many births happening right now as we are deaths. These are 1996 Census statistics for this Waterloo Public Health Unit region. So we have twice as many children now as we have seniors or people that are dying.

5724 Down at the bottom of that page you will also see that, according to the provincial average, we have 70 doctors per 100,000 versus Ontario which is 87. So we have a lack of the same level of health care within the area.

5725 We have a large population, which you can see. Waterloo Public Health statistics is on the next page; families that are dwelling in Ontario. You can see that we have families in dwelling statistics.

5726 We have many families -- the average number of one-parent families, 14,410 in this area.

5727 If we take a look at the statistics on the next page and we go down to the bottom, legal and marital status, we have 189,000 people that are married. We have 104,800 people that are single; separated, 11,600; divorced, 22,600; widowed, 19,000 -- almost equalling the number of people that are married.

5728 The reason that I am providing all of this information is because it provides a sound foundation for the point I am going to make in just a moment.

5729 If you go on, our health expenditures are spiralling way out of control. We see it in the paper every day.

5730 Selected leading causes of death, we can see that cancer and heart disease are major killers. We also have diseases of psychosis, suicide, liver disease, cirrhosis, HIV infection. Many of these diseases are lifestyle-related.

5731 We have high blood pressure. The older you get, the more the incidence happens.

5732 Lifetime probability of developing and dying from cancer. Men: 40 per cent of men will develop cancer in their lifetime. These are Canadian statistics. 26.7 per cent of them will die. 22.2 per cent of women will die as a result of cancer.

5733 Many cancers we know now are stress induced.

5734 We know that hospitalizations for mental disorders are spiralling out of control. The reasons for those, alcoholic psychosis, neurotic personality disorders, alcoholic dependent syndromes and drug dependencies.

5735 We have a significant number of unknown causes. Go to the next page.

5736 Therapeutic abortions by area of residence. In Ontario in 1999, if you recall, there was a huge kerfuffle going on with regard to this open issue, and the people in this province stepped up to the plate and wanted their voice to be heard on that. For that reason, the statistics couldn't even be calculated in 1999.

5737 But in the country, we lead the country in terms of abortions. That does not even include those abortions reported by American states or those abortions performed on non-Canadian residents.

5738 We can go through about the number of weeks of depression by age.

5739 You have to realize that as a total, in the age group 12-to-14 we have 70 per cent of the population there experiences depression, somewhere between two and four weeks. We have 69 per cent of 18-to-19 year olds experiencing depression; in the 52-week period, two to four weeks.

5740 The next paper is from Statistics Canada Social Trends. Loneliness: we have more people spending time alone. One of the biggest impacts of that is that relationships are drastically affected.

5741 We have some statistics on how living alone has become more common in the last 50 years. People that don't have somebody else to bounce their ideas off. We have divorce rates that are going up. We have widowhood that is increasing. And now with the changing demographics, where we have the leading edge of baby boomers that are entering into that category of time, or that section of time, these numbers are going to be greatly amplified.

5742 On the next paper we have family disruptions and childhood happiness. The stability of our family life during childhood affects our early years. Divorce and remarriage is something that drastically affects the development of all children.

5743 On the second page, page 3 of that article, it says that:

"The consequences of divorce, separation, death of a parent on a child's psychological health are complex and not easy to measure. Many of the social and economic effects have been well documented. For example, children of divorce are more likely to live in low income, have emotional behavioural and social and academic problems."

5744 Another paper, Being There.

"The time dual earner income families spend with their children is diminishing."

5745 There is an abundance of evidence that supports what we are doing in terms of lifestyle, how we are living it and its impact on our society. Not only from an economic standpoint, but from a health and societal point.

5746 These all have ripple effects.

5747 I recently came across a statistic that said that the welfare of our families -- if we took all of our money and we directed toward children, we would probably be able to help -- the words were to be able to reach 15 per cent of families.

5748 If we took our money and we put it into women's efforts, we would get about 50 per cent of families. But if we take it and we put it into men's efforts, we will reach 85 per cent of families. And the ripple effect will be clear.

5749 This station is about being out in the community. This station has a proven track record in Barrie. They have an extensive following of people that support, out of their own pocket, both personally and corporately. They have people who volunteer time to make sure certain events happen.

5750 They provide venues and events for families that we are talking about here, about single parent families, things for children. They have programs for children. They have entertainment for youth. They have programs for mothers staying at home. They have programs for the middle-aged. They have programs for seniors. They have programs for reaching virtually everyone.


5751 MR. LEBEL: Excuse me, Dr. Ely, your time has expired.

5752 DR. ELY: May I just summarize?

5753 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you could.

5754 DR. ELY: Thank you.

5755 What I want to stress to you is that this station and its application, if you give it an opportunity, could have a drastic effect on stemming the tide that is happening in health care in the province.

5756 I would like to ask you to accept my recommendation that the application be approved.

5757 Thank you for the privilege of being here.

5758 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

5759 Commissioner Langford has a question for you.

5760 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Dr. Ely, for sake of this question, let us accept absolutely every statistic you have put here as completely accurate.

5761 The reason I say that is it is obvious you could be married and also be a widow, married and also be divorced. So there is overlap in these things. They are not always exactly right.

5762 But to make it simple, let's accept absolutely every statistic you have given us as absolutely plain simply accurate.

5763 DR. ELY: All right.

5764 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How does a music Christian station solve any of these problems?

5765 The application from Trust is for a station to play music virtually all the time. There will be a little bit of news and a bit of weather and some comment, but essentially it is music. So I am not quite sure I understand.

5766 If it were counselling or a lot of spoken word or that sort of thing, I could make the connect. But I am not quite able to make it. That may be my lack of background in this area, so I would appreciate your views on how that would help any of these problems.

5767 DR. ELY: I am sure you have come across the concept of left brain versus right brain and cerebral hemisphericity. Those concepts are well understood.

5768 We know that children tend to be more evenly balanced, but the younger children tend to be more right-brained and more creative in that expression. For some people they tend to maintain that and continue to develop that through their lives.

5769 I don't happen to be one of them. I happen to be more logical and left-brain oriented, so I need to have statistics. I need to have numbers measurable events.

5770 What I am here to tell you is that music has commonly been accepted as something that can sooth the savage beast. Music is something that reaches all kinds of people.

5771 I guess if we went out on King Street here and did a brief survey and we asked how many people enjoy listening to music, not even asking them what type of music it was, I would say that the vast majority of them do.

5772 I think what this application does is it gives music in a format that is contemporary. It is fun. It has a good beat. It is uplifting.

5773 I know that because this is the survey I have done in my office, and I have asked people.

5774 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't mean to be facetious here at all. It may sound a little bit that way. It is just that I am having trouble trying to phrase this question.

5775 Are you telling me, then, that if you have the right music, music with a more uplifting message, more like what the Trust applicant is proposing to play, that that will somehow have a ripple effect on health concerns, abortion rates, family breakdown and the other rather horrifying statistics you supplied us with today?

5776 DR. ELY: I am so glad that you asked me that, and I would love to go on record and say yes, absolutely. When it comes right down to it, the decisions that people make with regard to their health care are not things that they make on the spur of the moment. These are mostly, for the most part, long-term lifestyle issues.

5777 A teenager doesn't get pregnant when she is three. A teenager gets pregnant when she is fertile, and it takes years of development to create the mindset for that child to either engage or not engage in the conduct that leads to pregnancy, for example.

5778 A station like this over time -- now coming right on the air isn't going to be measurable, but over time this station, with the opportunity to be exposed to these people, can have -- I could spend two hours just on the stuff I gave you.

5779 But in your own Statistics Canada research that is out there, it says specifically that yes, people that are encouraged -- and the reference is in the first paper, Religious Observance. It says that religious devotion or a lack of it has been associated with marital stability, family size, premarital sex. And the other references are in here.

5780 And the measure is attendance at religious service on a weekly basis versus not. That is just one measure.

5781 But it absolutely says here that people are healthier as a result of that. The health definition has already been established.

5782 So yes, to answer your question, it will have an effect on it.

5783 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The music, not the attendance at church.

5784 DR. ELY: Correct.

5785 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: The music itself.

5786 DR. ELY: Sure.

5787 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much.

5788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are our questions. Thank you very much for being here today.

5789 DR. ELY: Thank you.

5790 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5791 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5792 The next appearing intervention will be presented by Crystal Baird.


5793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5794 MS BAIRD: Good morning.

5795 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any time you are ready, go ahead.

5796 MS BAIRD: Thank you. First of all, I would like to thank the Commission for having me here today.

5797 My name is Crystal Baird. I am a senior in high school and a devoted member of my church youth group.

5798 My perspective is from the point of view of a youth who loves music but isn't happy with many of the musical choices offered on radio stations today.

5799 Music is one of the biggest influences in the lives of teens today. We spend our time listening to the radio, our money on CDs by artists we like, and many of us spend our time trying to learn how to produce our own music. There is no question that the music we listen to has a great impact on our lives.

5800 I am a leader of both the Junior and Senior High Youth Groups at my church, so I have seen and heard about the effects that the music played on LIFE 100.3 has had on them. They love the music that is played and are very excited to request songs and to be involved in the contests.

5801 Likewise, being in high school, I have also seen and heard about the effects that music played on other radio stations has had. People quote rude lyrics to insult each other and talk about how they have to hide their CD collections from their parents.

5802 Much of the popular music right now has lyrical content that I'm sure most parents don't know about. If they read the lyrics of some of the music their kids listen to on the radio, they would probably be shocked. The language and brutality presented by so many of these artists is shocking and that's why Christian radio means so much to me.

5803 The last page of the handout I gave you is a sheet with some song lyrics on it. I would like to play you a portion of these two songs so that you can see some of the differences and similarities between Christian and secular music.

5804 The first song is called "My Name Is" by Eminem. I would like to play you about 15 seconds of this song, which is the version that is heard on the radio. The part of the song that we will be listening to has been highlighted on your page.

--- Musical interlude / Intermède musical

5805 MS BAIRD: Those were just the first six lines in the first verse of this song, and already I am disgusted by the language, even in this special radio version, which is supposed to be clean.

5806 I e-mailed Matthew Wreggitt from Z103.5 in Toronto, and he told me that his station plays all of the Eminem's songs, including the one that I just played for you. These songs are appalling and we need an alternative type of radio to turn to so that we don't have to listen to songs like this.

5807 The second song I would like to bring to your attention is called "Wait For You", by KJ-52, who would probably be the Christian equivalent to Eminem. Again, I would like to play about 15 seconds of this song, and the lyrics that we will be listening to have been highlighted on your paper.

--- Musical interlude / Intermède musical

5808 MS BAIRD: This song promotes abstinence and high morals, and with Christian music there is absolutely no need to have a version of the song edited for radio. And I think that says a lot.

5809 As you have heard, the sound of these two artists is almost the same. The musical quality of KJ-52 is equal to Eminem, but the lyrics are quite different. Eminem can be very depressing when you actually read what he is saying. He talks about violent acts and getting girls pregnant, and I don't think that these ideas are what we all want our society to be about.

5810 Teens are very impressionable people. We are independent enough to make decisions on our own, but we are still learning and the adults we grow up to be is a result of what we surround ourselves with. Just walking down the halls of my school, I can tell what people surround themselves with.

5811 I consider myself to be very lucky that I have a Christian radio station to listen to that not only has the beat and the melody and the quality of radio that my friends listen to, but it also has lyrical content that is encouraging. The music is positive and cool, and it makes me feel more positive when I listen to it.

5812 Society tells me that Brittany Spears is a role model, and I can't help but think that there must be someone better for teens to look up to. And there are many "someones": Christian groups like Mary Mary, Stacie Orico and Rachel Lampa, who sing of integrity and living with high standards in a world that seems to have very few standards.

5813 These are the people that I want to listen to, and there are many others out there who would agree with me.

5814 I have lived in nine different cities in my life and, aside from Barrie, only one of those cities had a Christian radio station in the area that I could listen to, and that city was in the United States. In those seven other cities that I lived in, the only option for me was secular radio.

5815 When I moved to the United States I was so excited to be able to listen to my favourite music on the radio, and I feel the same way with the station in Barrie.

5816 For teens who live in an area without Christian radio, it can be tough, and I know because I've been there. CDs can be expensive and, in the car the only option is to listen to the radio or listen to nothing.

5817 I think it would be a great thing to give more teens like myself the chance to listen to clean music on a clean radio station that is still very "cool".

5818 Listing to Christian radio, I still get to experience all of the cool radio perks. There are tons of contests with great prizes to be won, and I can request my favourite song and dedicate it to my friends.

5819 I also think that my radio station is a lot more personal than many of the others. The DJs are always out in the community, whether it's at a concert or a youth event or a fundraiser. And the DJs hang out and have fun with us at the events. I have been to dances at my school where the secular DJs hardly even talk to the kids except to take some requests.

5820 The world of Christian radio is a whole different atmosphere, from the music itself right to the attitudes of the radio personalities.

5821 Christian radio is an excellent alternative to the junk that comes over the airwaves on many radio stations today, and I think that it is something all Canadians should be exposed to. The quality of the music is the same, and better in some cases. The styles of music are the same as secular radio; it's the lyrics that are different. The lyrics are positive and encouraging and they promote high moral standards.

5822 As a teenager, music is very important to me, and as a person who is displeased with many of the musical choices out there, Christian radio is even more important to me. I believe that this radio station would be of great value to Kitchener, and especially to teenagers. I can say that with confidence because I have seen the impact that this kind of radio station has had through LIFE 100.3, and I completely support the application put forth by Trust Communications Ministries.

5823 Thank you.

5824 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5825 We have a couple of questions.

5826 Commissioner Langford.

5827 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just out of curiosity, you move around a lot. You are paying your rent, are you?

5828 How come you move to so many different cities?

5829 MS BAIRD: That has to do with my father's job.

5830 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is he in the military or something?

5831 MS BAIRD: He is in radio, actually.

5832 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you know what you are talking about anyway.

5833 The kids who are listening to your radio, do they feel they don't fit in with the other kids? How do you have friends who are still good kids but are not in the church groups, are not listening to your radio; who are listing to what you call secular radio? How do you cross that bridge?

5834 MS BAIRD: I have many friends who do listen to secular radio. I don't think there is any difference between us, really. I listen to the same type of music. There is still rap, and hip hop and hard core and rock music. It is the same type of music; it's just the lyrics.

5835 I appreciate the lyrics more on Christian radio than on secular radio. I don't condone any of my friends who decide to listen to secular radio. I just prefer the Christian music.

5836 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you go to the dances at school?

5837 MS BAIRD: I go to some of them. I don't particularly enjoy most of them.

5838 I went to prom last year and things like that. I don't usually go to the more upbeat DJ dances, though.

5839 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But you don't feel isolated. You can cross the bridge and they can cross the bridge and go back and forth.

5840 MS BAIRD: Yes.

5841 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it is close enough that it works in that way.

5842 MS BAIRD: Yes, it does. The music is basically the same. It's just the lyrics; that's all.

5843 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That is good news. Thank you.

5844 THE CHAIRPERSON: So your father is in radio?

5845 MS BAIRD: Yes.

5846 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you be heading in that direction yourself?

5847 MS BAIRD: I am considering going into marketing or promotions in media, television or radio.

5848 THE CHAIRPERSON: You present yourself very well for one so young.

5849 MS BAIRD: Thank you.

5850 THE CHAIRPERSON: I take your point about the differences, and we appreciate you taking the time also to demonstrate that. It is important to really talk about an art form by actually listening to it or looking at it.

5851 You would agree with me that all what you call secular music isn't Eminem.

5852 MS BAIRD: Right. I agree that there is some secular music that has positive lyrics, yes.

5853 THE CHAIRPERSON: Exactly. It helps us to get your take on that, because there is a whole gamut of music out there. We talk a lot about formats here. Within all of those is a mixed bag, some of which is Eminem, some of which is not.

5854 So it is an interesting way that you have of being precise about it, and it is important for us to understand what you mean by Christian as opposed to secular music.

5855 Thanks so much for being here.

5856 MS BAIRD: Thank you.


5857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5858 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5859 I am advised that Mr. Wayne Hussey is here and ready to go. So we will hear from him at this point.


5860 MR. HUSSEY: Good morning.

5861 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Hussey.

5862 MR. HUSSEY: I think as the agenda and the docket would express, I am here speaking on behalf of the Rogers application for a radio signal in this particular community.

5863 I know you are interested in brevity and precision, so I will try to move along as quickly as I can.

5864 I am standing here not as a paid employee of Rogers in any way, shape or form but as a community member. I have been a resident of this particular area for approximately 28 years. My wife and I are blessed with six children who are involved in a whole variety of activities in our community.

5865 I have been a volunteer in a variety of community endeavours, including Chairman of the United Way Campaign, Chair of the board of the United Way. I am an honourary life director of that esteemed organization.

5866 I have also been a board member for the Chamber of Commerce and a variety of not-for-profit charitable organizations.

5867 As a businessman, I lead a company called DVA Navion. We believe we are one of the world's largest fundraising consulting firms, assisting churches, schools, universities and hospitals to raise funds for major capital campaigns.

5868 It is that latter context that I hope will frame my comments for the Panel today.

5869 I am blessed to work in the world of philanthropy. I meet dozens and hundreds of generous individuals and organizations throughout my career, and I would be happy to present Rogers from a community point of view, particularly CHYM CKGL's contribution to our community.

5870 My relationship with them of course began as a listener to their adult contemporary signal CHYM-FM. I went on to work with the former General Manager of the signal, Wolfgang von Raesfeld, and together we incubated a program called CHYM Cares.

5871 At the time I was President of the United Way and felt that there was more to be done for radio signals to support charitable activity in our community.

5872 I co-chair that particular committee still, along with Marjorie Carroll, the former Mayor of the City of Waterloo, and we have the job, along with staff, to select 12 charities every year that will be featured in that program.

5873 I am also now chair of the Advisory Board. Rogers feels very strongly in their communities that there should be high level community representation meeting with the management team twice a year to ensure that their perspective on community is maintained at a high and sincere level.

5874 It is a careful statement that I make here, but I do truly believe in this context that past predicts the future. The people of CHYM CKGL strike me as people of value to this community, and they do that by their personal involvement in the community.

5875 I won't go through a litany of their representations, but scarcely an event of consequence goes by where they volunteer, host, sponsor, support or promote. There are hundreds of these events every year that CHYM CKGL willingly put their enthusiasm behind to ensure that they are successful.

5876 Some of these are not small. CHYM, for example, was the originating media sponsor of the Ride for Heart. And as the founding chair of the corporate side of that event around ten years ago, we started off with a modest $15,000 in the kitty at the end of the day. Manulife was the corporate sponsor and CHYM was the media sponsor.

5877 Last year we eclipsed $160,000 in the corporate program alone, and CHYM has stood by us year in and year out, not just to advertise or put commercials on the air but to fundamentally influence the design of the event.

5878 So their commitment is deep and sincere.

5879 The people of the radio station strike me as being highly committed to the community, and that is a sign of philanthropy, in my regard. And they do it beyond their paid time. It is their personal contribution as volunteers that we also value.

5880 The second element that I would like to bring to your attention is that their product is a product of value. It is a highly organized well-run radio signal that provides quality adult contemporary music on the CHYM side and effective information dissemination on the CKGL side.

5881 I see no reason why these first two values of people and product would not be extended to the signal they are asking for permission to own here.

5882 The final part, though, I think is the greatest for me and that is the participation in specific philanthropic events. I will just cite two.

5883 One which is pretty close to my heart is the CHYM Cares program. It is not a slow gentle rain; it is a monthly thunderstorm of commitment to philanthropy. Essentially what we decided to do is each year we would pick a theme that would capture a variety of charitable organizations' efforts and highlight it.

5884 Our very first theme eight years ago was Women and Children at Risk. That was based on Decima Research that they were the number one concerned population for charitable activity in Canada at the time.

5885 Every month we featured a charitable organization actively contributing to the quality of life of women and children at risk: Anselma House, a women's shelter, YWCA. The list goes on and on.

5886 Since that time 12 charities every year have received special promotions, high quality commercials promoting their activities, urging people to volunteer, to donate. We have dozens of testimonials of letters from chief executive officers and board chairs saying that this was one of the most significant months of their charitable history in terms of media attention.

5887 In the final analysis, Rogers is a big company and we know that they have significant resources. The CHYM Cares program -- and I would say this is quite a conservative estimate. They have put $2.7 million of direct media expense into the CHYM Cares program over the last nine years.

5888 I think that is a tremendous accomplishment and one that I am very proud to be part of as a volunteer.

5889 The other event that I would like to bring to your attention that really connotes the quality of their commitment to our community was during the tragic Walkerton crisis. In that context, with less of a day of planning the CKGL side decided that they would run a water drive.

5890 You are probably, as CRTC members, familiar with this particular event because its outcome was recognized by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters as deemed the recipient of the What Radio Does Best Award.

5891 Amongst the radio community, I have been told that that is the most prestigious award any signal can get in the country.

5892 I suspect the reason they were honoured with that award is that in a matter of hours they encouraged through a mobile -- they call it the boom box. It was located at a major mall of ours to ensure easy access for residents.

5893 Over 100,000 litres of bottled water and in an unsolicited way -- they didn't ask for cash -- more than $36,000 was raised in cash for that community. That water was distributed in a matter of days, not weeks, and was put to immediate use for those people in Walkerton.

5894 Again, if time would have permitted, I would have given you a full PowerPoint presentation with dozens of examples. But I think those two are quite poignant. They really do speak to the kind of commitment that this corporation has to the community through radio.

5895 At the risk of embellishing the point -- I suspect some of you might agree -- I truly believe that radio as an element of media is an element of social change. They have added to the quality of life of our community, and I am very pleased to speak in full support of their application for your consideration.

5896 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5897 We have no questions. It was crystal clear, even without the PowerPoint presentation.

5898 MR. HUSSEY: Thank you for the opportunity.

5899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for being here.

5900 Mr. Secretary.

5901 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5902 The last appearing intervention will be presented by Eric Spath from Christian Marketing Canada.


5903 MR. SPATH: Good morning.

5904 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

5905 MR. SPATH: My name is Eric Spath. I am the Director of Promotions for Christian Marketing Canada. We are the largest distributor of Christian music in Canada, representing about 90 per cent of all the product that is distributed to Christian retail and the majority of the product that is distributed to mainstream retail.

5906 I am here on behalf of the company and myself to share with you why I believe Trust Communications really needs to be considered.

5907 I spent the last 12 years in the Christian music industry, and it has been a pure pleasure. I started as an entrepreneur basically being an event promoter in the Toronto area a long time before Christian radio ever started, when there was a hunger amongst people to hear Christian music. I created lots of all-night events in a variety of facilities and drew people into those. That is how I got my feet wet in the industry.

5908 That led me to working with an organization similar to World Vision that had artists endorsing them. Four years ago I had an opportunity to come over and work for CMC, and one of my first responsibilities was to take on all the media.

5909 It was something that, quite frankly, we did very poorly. We really at that time didn't have much of an understanding of how to work with media, the benefits, and we didn't have a lot of great relationships with the media outlets providing Christian radio in Canada.

5910 Within my first to eight months that dramatically changed through one opportunity to sit down with Scott Jackson from Trust Communications and really get a sense of what radio could be.

5911 I must confess that many things that are Christian I believe are very mediocre. I think that often Christians believe that the vision is more important than excellence in the product, and the day I sat down with Scott I realized I had run into somebody who thought differently.

5912 It was exciting for me, because it is something that I have passionately believed; that we are called to excellence in all things, and I think we earn the right to speak through excellence.

5913 We have changed as a company dramatically because of our relationship with Trust Communications. It has changed the way we service radio and media in Canada, and I believe it has raised the level of excellence among all radio stations in Canada that we service.

5914 To give you an idea, I want to run through a couple of them.

5915 We still face a lot of challenges in Canada as a Christian music industry because of a lack of infrastructure. We have distribution channels. We have retail channels, but there are a lot of other channels that are missing.

5916 We don't get BDS charts, so often it is a challenge to know what radio stations play.

5917 We began a relationship with Scott and his team and began to understand the relationship between media and the distributor and how that bar can be raised and the expectations. It has caused us to be able to service everybody in this country much better because of it.

5918 I would be confident to say that while Barrie is certainly not our biggest market for sales in the country, it is our number one account in media.

5919 What it has allowed us to do as a company is realize the potential reach in the other markets.

5920 Kitchener-Waterloo is a great place. I have lived here before for a couple of years. I believe as a market it is a market that is extremely hungry.

5921 With respect to one of the things I heard earlier, I think often we think that Christian radio only reaches Christians, and I don't believe that is the case.

5922 I don't have any statistics to prove what it does in Canada, but I have heard many statistics and read them in the U.S. where they say 20 per cent of all listeners to Christian radio are not considered Christians. They are people who are drawn to the station for the positive values that it has and its sense of community.

5923 For me, I look at radio and I always figure a radio station is a little bit like a lighthouse. It is a beacon to the community. For us that are faith based -- as Christians and people who believe in God, we consider this area to be a bible belt. It has a core population and a very strong church-based population.

5924 I look and I say we have three great retailers in this market, and I kind of bounce between the business side of it and the side of what do the people in the community really get.

5925 On the retail side, we have three good retailers. But the reality is the size of the population here comparable to other markets is not the same in sales. We know full well that when Christian radio comes into markets sales dramatically change.

5926 I will give you an example.

5927 In Barrie what I did is when the Barrie radio station started, I started every year taking any new station that you had approved and studied the retail sales the year before to the year after the station was on the air.

5928 We have seen in the first two years of the Barrie radio station over a 25 per cent growth at retail.

5929 To me, it speaks volumes in the effect that the radio station has on the community, because I really believe that music sales result in the fact of people hearing something that they are proud of and responding in that way.

5930 We have just had an incredible opportunity to do a lot of things and grow the way we see the industry going through our relationship with them. I think they are a station that is driven by excellence. I believe that they see the big picture.

5931 It is exciting for me to go into stations all across this country and see photocopies of cheques on the walls. Trust Communications has donated money to new applicants that you have approved.

5932 There are not enough people at times who are committed to an industry, who are committed to what they do in that industry. I see them as a pure example of somebody that is committed to the industry at large. To me, that is important.

5933 I know for us as a company we are certainly going to see significant sales increases. There is no denying that. We are going to see a great infrastructure occur in this country.

5934 One of the missing pieces now is a lot of independent artists, producing new recordings, getting signed to record labels.

5935 Scott and his team have reached out to inde artists. We have had many of our major labels -- the largest label in the world in the Christian industry is Sparrow. It is owned by EMI.

5936 The staff have come up to Canada to develop a relationship with some new and upcoming artists. We have seen that more and more often as Trust Communications has given opportunities for inde artists to perform.

5937 We have developed things like promotional touring that never happened before, where we bring new artists through the market and give them a chance to be exposed to a variety of people in concert and on the radio, through contests and promotions. We would never have done that had it not been a relationship with Trust that developed that and allowed us to really learn a lot.

5938 I will be honest. I have learned more about radio from Trust than anywhere else.

5939 As I said, as a company, it was sort of this thing that was passed on to me when I took on the marketing: "By the way, you will also get media." It had been passed on to many other people.

5940 I would just say in closing that I think there is a variety of great reasons why they deserve an opportunity here.

5941 Number one is they are driven by excellence, and I think that is something we all can be proud of. Years later, we can look back on decisions and say: We can see the results of those decisions and why they are so positive.

5942 They are extremely community based. They are pro Canada. In the industry of Christian music, which is really an American industry, we don't have a lot that is pro Canada.

5943 We don't have enough playing Cancon. We don't have enough giving opportunities for Canadian artists to perform at radio station events. They give those opportunities.

5944 I believe that ultimately, as they grow as a company and to other markets, I think they are only going to raise the level of excellence amongst Christian radio in Canada even more. I think that is good for everybody.

5945 Thank you for the opportunity.

5946 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

5947 Commissioner Cram has a question for you.

5948 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Spath.

5949 I wrote down what you said and then I put question marks after it, because it didn't appear comprehensible to me.

5950 You said in the U.S. 20 per cent of people listening to Christian radio are not Christians.

5951 MR. SPATH: Yes.

5952 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Does that study say what they are?

5953 MR. SPATH: They would be people that don't profess to have a relationship with God.

5954 I will be honest. I don't have all the statistics, so it is very difficult to speak directly.

5955 The study basically broke it down into a variety of people, from people from different denominational backgrounds to people that would be considered not of faith; that they wouldn't profess a faith in God.

5956 That number of 20 per cent is the number that I saw as standing out to say that it speaks volumes to the fact that Christian radio is more than just reaching a Christian community. We see it all the time.

5957 Just to give you an example on a personal note, I used to be what they called the "rollerskating king". Christians don't dance; they rollerskate half the time. It is a common joke in the church.

5958 I used to do roller rinks in the middle of the night. I remember one night my wife came out. She was skating around the rink and she asked a young kid: "What church did you come with?" And he said: "I never came from church." "I guess you are just here for the Christian all-night roller skate?" And he said: "I am just here because I really feel comfortable being here and I like the environment I'm in."

5959 Personally, that spoke volumes for what I did. I think that testimony is the testimony that can be heard many times over at Christian radio stations. It can give a sense of the fact that when we talk about community -- and I think every radio station does reach a community. There is no denying that. I think their effectiveness is greater than just thinking of the Christian community.

5960 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that 20 per cent could be lapsed Christians or non-Christians or even people who belong to a church but who don't attend regularly.

5961 Is that the concept?

5962 MR. SPATH: Yes, I think so. I think recent studies in Canada -- I can't remember the exact numbers -- stated how many people believed in a god.

5963 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it could include even Jewish people.

5964 MR. SPATH: I think so. I think people of other religions, sure.

5965 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Is there any data that you have seen on the impact of Christian radio on people such as Muslims?

5966 MR. SPATH: I can't say I have. I think the reality is -- and what I have seen more on other issues, for example, on Christian private schools, even Christian schools, I have seen more faith-based communities coming together for a common goal.

5967 I think people are realizing -- we made a great statement with Eminem this morning, and I think that is a powerful statement. It doesn't represent the entire industry.

5968 I think more and more the reality is that people and families are looking at what the kids are listening to and what people are listening to in general and looking for positive alternatives. While there are some in mainstream radio, I think there is more of a consistency of that in Christian radio. I think that is drawing people toward that medium.

5969 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

5970 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your intervention and for being here today.

5971 MR. SPATH: Thank you.

5972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.

5973 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5974 This completes Phase III of this public hearing.

5975 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will take a 15-minute break and come back for Phase IV.

5976 That would be at five past twelve, if my watch is correct.

--- Upon recessing at 1150 / Suspension à 1150

--- Upon resuming at 1205 / Reprise à 1205

5977 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

5978 Mr. Secretary.


5979 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5980 We have now reached Phase IV of this public hearing, in which applicants will appear in reverse order to reply to any interventions filed to their application.

5981 We will now hear from CKMW Radio Ltd.


5982 MR. EVANOV: Good afternoon. I'm Bill Evanov from CKMW Radio. Beside me is Carmella Laurignano.

5983 CKMW is very enthusiastic again today about bringing the urban Top 40 format to Kitchener-Waterloo. Three broadcasters want to serve the youth market: two of them with the CHR and eurhythmic CHR format; and one station, ourselves, with the urban Top 40 format.

5984 We were thrilled to hear the Global intervenors 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 and 9 all tell you two things: one, the market needs urban music and Top 40; and some also told you how important DJ spinners are to this format.

5985 CKMW was the applicant who offered urban music in abundance, whereas Global indicated to the Commission it would play less than 10 per cent hip hop and then only in late evening out of peak periods.

5986 Also, CKMW was the only applicant who announced strong support for the DJ spinners in our application to the Commission. So, in effect, the Global intervenors support the merits of the CKMW application: the need for urban, R&B, hip hop and the DJ spinners.

5987 That's all we have for rebuttal. Thank you.

5988 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Evanov.

5989 I don't think we have any questions. So thank you very much.

5990 MR. EVANOV: Thank you very much, and Happy Halloween.

5991 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

5992 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5993 I will now ask Larche Communications Inc. to respond to interventions at this point.


5994 MR. LARCHE: Thank you.

5995 Madam Chair and Commissioners, thank you for an opportunity to comment on some of the interventions that have been submitted in response to our application.

5996 You heard from the great Mayor of Midland this morning, Mr. George MacDonald. We want to acknowledge and thank him for his support.

5997 I would like to touch on a couple of other interventions we received from other Mayors in our area: the Mayor of Penetanguishene, Anita Dubeau, wrote in her intervention that:

"Kick 104-FM are good corporate citizens. They understand that serving the communities in which they call home is a fundamental duty to a broadcaster in Canada."

5998 And Mr. Jim Perri, who is the Mayor of Barrie, said:

"The City of Kitchener, its residents and many community organizations will greatly benefit from a radio station owned and operated by LCI."

5999 In conclusion, I want to reiterate that our application is the clear best choice for the 99.5 frequency. We surpass your criteria on every level. Our business plan is robust. It is built on solid research and considerable experience.

6000 The expectations for audience levels and revenues are sound. Our plans for reflecting the community with a new news voice and spoken word are unequalled.

6001 Our CTD and programming expenditures are considerably higher than the other applicants for this frequency. We are proposing a minimum 40 per cent Cancon and several key on-air features to further promote Canadian talent.

6002 You heard from Jason McCoy yesterday. You received written interventions from other artists, both established and non-established, who attest to the real commitment to Canadian country music that our radio station has shown in the Midland market and we want to show here in the Kitchener market.

6003 I hope you will also take into consideration that approval of this application will also strengthen a small independent broadcast company that wants to grow and make a positive contribution to the Canadian broadcast system.

6004 I want to take this opportunity to thank you for considering our application. I have truly enjoyed the experience, and I speak on behalf of my coworkers, as well.

6005 I also want to acknowledge my admiration and respect for all the applicants this week. I have seen some truly outstanding people and some very interesting plans. The process we have gone through is envied around the world. It ensures that the Canadian people get the absolute best out of their own airwaves, and it is a privilege for me to be part of this process.

6006 Thank you.

6007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. There are no questions.

6008 Thank you very much.

6009 Mr. Secretary.

6010 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6011 I will now ask Edward F. Bauman & Rae Roe to respond at this time.


6012 MR. CRAIG: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

6013 I am Jim Craig back again, and this is Rae Roe to my left.

6014 I said yesterday in our brief intervention statement that we feel more comfortable taking the high road. I think I said "high ground", but maybe we will take that too.

6015 We don't really think it is positive to take shots at other applicants. That is still our stance, and we will attempt to maintain it even in the face of Mr. Kirk's statements yesterday.

6016 Mr. Kirk has made serious allegations of attempts to make unfiled changes in our application. We would submit that he perhaps didn't read all of the publicly filed documents associated with this application.

6017 First of all, we would like to begin with the 40 per cent Cancon question.

6018 Obviously Mr. Kirk heard the informational exchange that Madam Chair and Mr. Roe had regarding the procedural issue on Canadian content level and the electronic filing of our application.

6019 Madam Chair was kind enough to alert us that other applicants could comment. We thank her for that. And we thank Mr. Kirk for his comment.

6020 However, we again point out that a Cancon level was not part of the provided electronic filing application forms, nor in CRTC staff member Gary McKimm routine deficiency questions of August 31, 2001.

6021 As experienced broadcasters, we are all well aware of the 35 per cent Canadian content regulations. That is a given. An assumption is made with all applicants and broadcasters that Cancon requirements will be adhered to. Non-compliance is not an option.

6022 If we erred in pledging a higher Cancon commitment, we apologize and we will reluctantly agree to Mr. Kirk's wish that we only play 35 per cent Canadian content and of course we will adhere to the assumption of "35 per cent or higher", as dictated by the regulation.

6023 In regard to the Canadian Country Countdown Show with Jamie Warren, we refer Mr. Kirk to the public record, specifically the answer to question 2(e) filed with Mr. McKimm, again on August 31, 2001, again as part of the routine questions, where the intent of producing such a program was put forth.

6024 To satisfy Mr. Kirk's allegation that costs incurred producing such a show would constitute an unfiled change in CTD expenditures, review of the transcript of yesterday's proceedings will show that in response to a Commissioner's question following our presentation Mr. Roe made it clear that monies to produce the Canadian Country Countdown would not be part of, or be coming from, Canadian Talent Development funds but rather would be provided through sponsorships.

6025 Mr. Kirk further alleged that Rae Roe misled these proceedings with a claim of residency in Kitchener. I did a quick review of filings, and on page 1 of the Bauman-Roe application it shows Mr. Roe's Ancaster address. All mailed correspondence from the Commission was directed to that address.

6026 In fact, Mr. Roe's address shows up in application material available for public viewing to my count, and perhaps it's more, no less than eight times. Faxed communication was directed to an Ancaster number.

6027 This doesn't sound like misleading the Commission to me.

6028 At no time during these proceedings did Mr. Roe claim current residency in KW. A 45-year residency in Kitchener-Waterloo was alluded to -- that is 45 of his 55 years. The other ten have been in the Hamilton-Ancaster area but even still with close family and continuing work ties in Kitchener-Waterloo.

6029 It should also be pointed out that Mr. Roe's relationship with Ed Bauman goes back some 30 years.

6030 Regarding Mr. Kirk's statement about Mr. Roe's shareholdings in WAVE 94.7, in my further review of the application, under Management, Ownership and Financing it clearly shows that Mr. Roe was a shareholder of CIWV-FM and has since divested his interest and is no longer involved in that station's operations.

6031 This was clearly reiterated by Doug Ackhurst for the public record in the presentation stage of these proceedings yesterday.

6032 Nothing was hidden from the Commission, and we would suggest that the focus of this hearing should be on the merits of the applications, not on unrelated business or perhaps personal matters.

6033 In general response to Mr. Kirk's interventions yesterday, we vigorously refute his allegation that we have attempted to mislead the Commissioners and undermine these proceedings.

6034 Personally, I find that a bit of an insult.

6035 We respect the process, and I expect this answers any questions arising.

6036 Just a few other short points on the application.

6037 First, the team Doug Ackhurst, a long-time broadcaster and broadcast executive, is a committed member of this team.

6038 Likewise, I have a long history in broadcasting. I have family and work ties here. I was born, raised and worked in the immediate area and in the city for half of my life. I know the market very well and am committed to this project too.

6039 Rob Williamson was a local newscaster for many years and is committed to this project. We are a locally based application team.

6040 Mario Pratola, shareholder, lives in this city. He has been here for 35 years and is a broadcast engineer.

6041 Rae Roe, born and raised 45 years in the city. I think we have already reviewed all of that.

6042 And then there is Ed Bauman. Ed is a lifelong resident. I think it was fairly obvious in our presentation period yesterday that Ed is not a broadcaster, nor does he profess to be, and he is a little bit uncomfortable with these kinds of proceedings.

6043 However, he is a friend of broadcasting and of broadcasters and has a team of experienced broadcasters gathered around him. Most important, he is highly respected as a businessman in this community, and he is committed to this project.

6044 And as he committed to you yesterday, he will apply the resources of his other companies to this project and to its success.

6045 We are certainly different from the other country applicants. Our programming is very different. We won't have a tight minimal music universe of 300 to 400 or 500 tunes. We won't be labelled as "hot country" or "new country". We will offer a broader selection of currents, recurrents, classics and heritage country music and make room in our play list for unexposed grassroots Canadian talent and make room for specialty programming too.


6046 MR. WILSON: Mr. Craig, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just to remind you that this is the response phase and response to interventions and not to go over the application and the merits of the application.

6047 MR. CRAIG: That's fine.

6048 I would just like to say that we submitted our application and technicals in July 2001. We answered all routine deficiency questions in September 2001. Our file has been complete since then. The building is in place, the equipment, et cetera, and we will sign on virtually debt-free. We are ready to roll on this.

6049 We hope that we have been able to answer any of the questions that have arisen.

6050 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6051 Mr. Secretary.

6052 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6053 I will now ask Trust Communications Ministries to respond at this time.


6054 MR. DAVY: On behalf of our committee, Christian Radio KW, I would like to thank the Commission for allowing us to come and present our application.

6055 I would also like to thank those people who spoke on behalf of Christian radio and the 250 fans who wrote letters in support of this station. This includes letters from Kitchener business people who took the time to outline the benefits that licensing Christian Radio KW would bring to the community.

6056 I also thank the local musicians for making wonderful Christian music. Your music and lyrics encourage us all. We hope that soon we will be able to provide you with a Christian station in Kitchener-Waterloo to play your songs.

6057 I thank the church pastors and the many anxious listeners of Christian music who took the time from their schedules to speak on behalf of and confirm the need for this format.

6058 I will ask Scott Jackson to offer a final commentary.

6059 MR. JACKSON: I would like to thank the other applicants for showing us the ropes in this hearing process. I appreciate the guidance, the pep talks and the new friendships that we have made this week.

6060 For the public record, I would like to begin with a correction that was brought to my attention following Phase I. We just received a fax from our engineer Pierre LaBarre and he asked us to make a correction.

6061 We have just made photocopies, and we will pass them out after this deliberation, if that is all right.

6062 I will read it to you so that it is on the public file.

"Our application on the 99.5 frequency based on old Industry Canada rules is for RMS power of 379 watts and maximum power of 1600 watts. On 93.7, our alternate choice frequency, the station could operate at the very same perimeters as 99.5. This was correctly stated during the hearing.

With the new rules, on 99.5 our power could be quadrupled. This was also correctly stated during the hearing.

With the new rules, on 93.7 the power could also be quadrupled in the direction of KW on the condition that the pattern of the antenna is modified to protect Owen Sound.

The word "condition" was inadvertently omitted in my answer to the Commissioner's question."

6063 That is a statement from Pierre LaBarre.

6064 If the Commission chooses to grant us a licence for an alternate frequency choice on 93.7, we would proceed with the full technical brief under Mr. LaBarre's guidance.

6065 We have taken Commissioner Langford's concern about religious balance to heart. We understand the Commission's condition of licence that if Christian radio KW undertakes religious content as described in the Religious Broadcasting Act 1993-78, we are expected to provide balance as outlined. We assure the Commission that that will be done.

6066 Although our pockets may not be as deep as some of our radio competitors, we have presented a credible application, and we hope that you would agree and would award Trust Communications a licence to play Christian music in Kitchener-Waterloo.

6067 Commissioners, we are ready. Thank you very much.

6068 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6069 Counsel, do you have any concerns?

6070 MR. WILSON: No, Madam Chair.

6071 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can make that information available to the Secretary.

6072 MR. JACKSON: Yes, we will hand in that statement from Mr. LaBarre.

6073 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6074 Mr. Secretary.

6075 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6076 I will now ask Sound of Faith Broadcasting to respond at this time.


6077 MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Chairperson, Members of the Commission, unlike what Mr. Stanson said this morning during the intervention period, we are not in this for the money. In fact, I guess we are the paupers of broadcasting.

6078 We appreciate being part of this exercise. It has been enriching for us, enlightening and, from the point of view of our hearing, I hope it has been the same for you.

6079 I would like to introduce Rachel Wallace-Oberle, who is one of our co-ordinators.

6080 MS WALLACE-OBERLE: Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission, you have been so gracious throughout these proceedings in allowing applicants to speak freely, and often at length. If I could, I would like to take a few moments of your time and leave with you some final thoughts.

6081 In one of the artist's statements of support included in our presentation there is a portion that stands out sharply.

6082 Jane Valenta, singer and songwriter of Kitchener, said this:

"Over the past year we have seen a great deal of chaos in this world. People are desperate to hear something positive and uplifting, and they find that with Faith FM."

6083 To be granted a voice in this community by the Commission is to be given both a privilege and a responsibility. This voice reaches many ears and has the power to affect many lives.

6084 There are numerous voices in this region already. Some are louder than others, but the Christian voice is almost indiscernible.

6085 We are asking you to change that.

6086 For four and a half years, every Sunday morning the voice of Faith FM has inspired this community. It speaks comfort, hope and encouragement to those who listen. And those thousands have repeatedly emphasized the tremendous need for this and their willingness to support it.

6087 How compelling to discover that the unity of this vision has blurred distinctions in culture, race, age, sex, denomination and church affiliation. Christians have come together in their desire to speak with one voice in order to build and benefit this city.

6088 There is a scripture verse in which we at Faith FM find a mandate.

6089 Philippians 4:8 says: Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy, meditate on these things.

6090 With your permission, Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission, we will deliver this message loud and clear, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

6091 Thank you very much.

6092 MR. MacDONALD: Madam Chairperson and Members of the Commission, thank you again for the opportunity to make a few closing remarks.

6093 I would like to remark on some comments made by some of the intervenors on behalf of some of the other applicants, and certainly they would apply in our case.

6094 Dr. Ely made a number of comments about the state of the world and how Christian music would improve the situation. We would certainly agree with his position on that.

6095 However, our application does include a spoken word content, and we will be doing some counselling type programming, because we consider ourselves a ministry in this community. We would certainly support what Dr. Ely had to say.

6096 Crystal Baird made a very good case for having Christian music, and we will be playing music to appeal to her demographic, as well as the total community. We will be devoting Fridays and Saturdays to the youth of the community.

6097 We do recognize that Trust Communications will be addressing that demographic 24 hours a day, and we support them in that. You will note that there are letters on file both from us supporting their application and from them supporting ours, because we do address a totally different demographic in the community.

6098 I would also like to address the question brought out by Commissioner Langford about whether local matters.

6099 We believe that local does matter. We believe that we have probably more recognition in the community. Bruce Johnston and myself have a total of over 60 years' exposure on our local television station. People know who we are. They know we are connected to the Christian community.

6100 We have been involved with various Christian projects over the years, including the Franklin Graham Mission that came to town here and attracted over 40,000 people. Bruce and I were on the organizing committee in charge of publicity for that. So we are extremely well connected to the local churches and the pastors in this community.

6101 Eric Spath mentioned the fact that there is a hunger in this market for Christian music. There is a hunger for Christian broadcasters.

6102 On New Years Eve 1999, with the Y2K phenomena, we decided in this community to do something different, and we put together a little New Years Eve party at the Kitchener auditorium for Christians to come and celebrate and sing praise songs.

6103 I was invited to be a part of that and to present a short two-minute presentation on behalf of FAITH FM. About 3,000 people attended, and they all paid $10 to get in. I gave a two-minute presentation about FAITH FM and then we took up an offering. After all, it was a church service.

6104 We took up an offering for FAITH FM, and we had $12,500 donated to us that night.

6105 There is a hunger in this community for Christian music. So we will appeal to a very broad demographic. We will be unique in this market. We will not be affecting the other applicants.

6106 We thank you for the opportunity to be here.

6107 I would like to also thank particularly Secretary Lebel and legal counsel James Wilson for helping us and going above and beyond what they had to do. We are new people at this. We had no idea what we were getting into. They have been so helpful, and I wanted to put it on the public record that they were very accommodating to our needs.

6108 Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this afternoon.

6109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We have no questions.

6110 Mr. Secretary.

6111 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6112 I will now ask Mr. Douglas Kirk to respond.


6113 MR. KIRK: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

6114 We have several comments to conclude our Phase IV.

6115 Madam Chair, yesterday when asked why the Larche OBCI application should be licensed in preference to other applicants, Mr. Larche told the Commission that their CTD proposal was 85 per cent larger than our application. He also combined direct and indirect CTD expenses, thereby inflation the CTD contributions for that comparison.

6116 We believe that Mr. Larche has mischaracterized our application.

6117 For the record Larche OBCI CTD direct expenses are not 85 per cent greater. But there are other differences.

6118 As filed with our application KX-99 will spend 70 per cent of its CTD expenditures locally in seven significant station direct projects. According to the Larch application, only a small portion of the direct CTD are to be spent locally on one third party activity. Eighty per cent of the Larche CTD expenditures are spent at the national and regional level.

6119 MR. WILSON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Kirk, but just to remind you that this phase is to respond to interventions and not to respond to what parties may have said in Phase I of presentation of the application.

6120 MR. KIRK: Well, I take that. We have some responses, as well, to some characterizations.

6121 We were clarifying the Phase I and other applications.

6122 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr. Kirk, maybe it would be helpful if I say this -- and I hope I am not giving my Chair a heart attack, because I haven't given anyone any notice of this.

6123 I have seen eyebrows go up in the audience of applicants when their applications are characterized by other applicants and defined, because sometimes the other applicants don't quite get it right on what their music is or what the percentage is. It is an innocent mistake.

6124 We can read, is my message to you. All of us can read really quite well -- and most of us without moving our lips. We can add. We can do this kind of mathematics. We can count. We can do percentages.

6125 And if we fail, we have really an incredibly qualified staff that can lead us through problems like reading and math.

6126 Am I getting through to you?

6127 MR. KIRK: I think you are.

6128 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And I don't say that in any way to admonish you. I say it to give you comfort and to give everyone here comfort.

6129 If someone has characterized something incorrectly, I think we will sort through it for you.

6130 If you could be guided by Mr. Wilson's direction, I think everybody will be a lot happier and go home feeling a lot more comfortable.

6131 MR. KIRK: All right. I do want to thank our more than 100 intervenors, and I do have a concluding statement pertinent to the application.

6132 I want to thank the 100 intervenors who have written in support. Many of those aspire to the musical genre of country, and our application I think best provides for that.

6133 In conclusion, you have heard discussion about local ownership and we do bring that to this application.

6134 I wish to inform you that I will terminate my employment with BMO Nesbitt Burns effective December 31, and on January 1 will be fully engaged in my broadcasting interests.

6135 With the award of this licence, I will personally move here to manage the construction and start of the station and join my local partners to go the distance for KW.

6136 I trust that these remarks will clarify the information stated by the other applicant, and I will take Commissioner Langford and trust the Chair and Commissioners will fairly compare the math that all of us have put on the record with you via the written application.

6137 It is the Kirk application that is the number one significant local talent development commitment for this market. We are independent from conglomerates. We have the management depth. We are looking forward to building KX-99, Kitchener's newest local radio service.

6138 Thank you.


6139 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have no questions.

6140 Mr. Secretary.

6141 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6142 I will now ask Aboriginal Voices Radio Incorporated to respond to interventions at this time.


6143 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McLeod, I think you have been here for the last few presenters. We have been trying to clarify again -- and I don't mean to preach or assume that you are not aware of Phase IV, but it is indeed to respond to interventions, not to re-argue presentations.

6144 We would appreciate it if you would also take to heart what Commissioner Langford has also tabled with everyone in terms of our ability to read, which we take very seriously.

6145 Thank you.

6146 MR. McLEOD: Good afternoon.

6147 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

6148 MR. McLEOD: I think we have probably already made every error possible regarding what is supposed to be done in what phase, and I think we have that straight now.

6149 THE CHAIRPERSON: I remember.

6150 MR. McLEOD: We will try to keep it very clear.

6151 I want to say, to start off, that we regret that our team has dispersed. Gary Farmer is in Los Angeles by this time. People have gone all over the country. We would have liked to have had some of the people who started this hearing be here this afternoon, but unfortunately that is not possible.

6152 We do want to quickly respond to two of the interventions that you heard already today that referenced our application.

6153 We will start with John Matthews relating to the CBC intervention.

6154 MR. MATTHEWS: You have maps in front of you that show the areas of potential interference that the proposal we have made for Kitchener would impose on a CBC Radio One repeater in Shelburne.

6155 The CBC has suggested that our proposal for 102.5 would damage the coverage of their co-channel Shelburne repeater. That is simply not so.

6156 According to Industry Canada's rules, a new station which encounters areas of interference must file a statement at the time of application that it will not provide service to any areas where those coverage limitations take place.

6157 On that basis, Industry Canada agrees that our proposal for 102.5 is technically acceptable as the CBC certainly agrees that any interference to the CBC Shelburne repeater from our proposal is well within the area of existing interference to that repeater from a co-channel U.S. station in Buffalo.

6158 The CBC's repeater does not serve this area by virtue of the statement they would have had to file at the time they originally applied for the use of that Shelburne frequency.

6159 So using 102.5 in Kitchener meets our coverage needs. It meets the scrutiny of Industry Canada and therefore represents efficient use of spectrum.

6160 I would submit that the CBC is trying to protect an area that by virtue of compliance with the rules it is not entitled to serve. We cannot fathom why they would be so strict in their interpretation of the rules, given that Industry Canada seems to be satisfied that our proposal meets their standards.

6161 MR. McLEOD: I don't know if Commissioners have any comments or anything you want to respond to that before we move to the second subject.

6162 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. You may move on.

6163 MR. McLEOD: I want to briefly address the intervention that you received from CKRZ-FM, who would be considered the local station in this area, although they do not reach Kitchener.

6164 We regret that they felt that they needed to intervene against us in this application process. Although we made an effort to allay the fears that they brought up in their letter, clearly they felt that it was important to come to the Commission and to talk about the potential threat they feel to their advertising revenues, potentially to their coverage area; that an application by Aboriginal Voices Radio might reach where they are and take audience share away, that type of thing.

6165 We have had a series of discussions with them where we showed them our application and presented the information to them. CKRZ is not the first existing station that we have encountered as we have gone across the country that their position is tenuous enough as far as their revenue sources go and as far as their trying to stay afloat that anybody that comes along and potentially can hurt them, it raises a concern.

6166 We understand that and we respect their decision to appear here.

6167 I do want to point out, if you look at the letter they filed, there is nothing in it per se that doesn't support what Aboriginal Voices Radio is trying to do. It is simply their concern that there might be a negative effect on them from a licence in this market.

6168 As I mentioned, we certainly respect what CKRZ has done, and our station is designed and our plan as far as advertising revenue is designed so that we won't interfere with them.

6169 CKRZ is kind of like our hallmark station in the sense that two of the most prominent members of Aboriginal Voices Radio come from that station. That is where they got their start in radio.

6170 As far as communication goes, I would have to say if we were laggardly in our communication with them, it was the sense that they are already onside and they are with us. We should have probably done a lot more communication with them to make sure months ago that they understood there was no concern.

6171 When the deadline for interventions arose and they still felt uncomfortable, they decided they would come before you.

6172 That being said, I want to make sure that you understand that we respect the prominence and the expertise of CKRZ. As they mention in their own intervention letter -- I will just quote it here:

"We were in the process of trying to set up an exchange of programming and use of our on-air personnel."

6173 In fact, that is exactly what we have been talking to them about for a number of years. At the time when we are broadcasting, we would be looking at carrying some of their fine programming nationally so people in Vancouver and Calgary and elsewhere would be able to pick up their programming; and also for them to carry our national news package and that type of thing.

6174 There is nothing in their intervention that shows that they have less interest in that type of exchange. Clearly they do.

6175 The bottom line, I think, is that they have legitimate fears about their future because they are a small station in a small market. We respect that, and we hope that their fears and anxieties will be settled when we actually get to the point where we are looking at putting the station on the air.

6176 In closing, I would just say that our relationship with CKRZ is good today. It was good and it will be good tomorrow.

6177 I don't dispute the things that they said in their intervention letter about the legitimate fears they face, and I hope that that part of the intervention letter you will take to heart and realize that it is a struggle for all Native broadcasters in Canada that are in small markets to simply keep their operations going. They are on a fine budget.

6178 That is the end of my comments.

6179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod and Mr. Matthews.

6180 MR. McLEOD: I should also thank the people who wrote letters in support of us, as is the proper process, and to thank you Commissioners for your time at this hearing and for considering our application.

6181 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are welcome.

6182 Mr. Secretary.

6183 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6184 I will now ask Telephone City Broadcast Limited to respond at this time.


6185 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

6186 MR. BUCHANAN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.

6187 I am Richard Buchanan, President and General Manager of Telephone City Broadcast Ltd., the applicant for a new Country FM station to serve Brantford at 91.5 FM.

6188 With me is Peter Jackman, our General Sales Manager.

6189 We are here today to reply to the written interventions to our application as there were no oral interventions. The only opposing interventions were submitted in writing and they all concerned potential interference with CJRT-FM's Toronto signal, and they all came from the GTA.

6190 We believe that we have addressed these concerns in our written reply, and the problem has been resolve to the satisfaction of Industry Canada.

6191 I would like to take the time to thank the many intervenors from Brantford and our surrounding service area who have demonstrated why we should be awarded this licence.

6192 We have provided service to all the citizens of our coverage area. The Councils of all of the counties we serve and other elected representatives have enthusiastically endorsed our proposal to provide their local service to Brantford and area. The Councils of Haldimand County, Brant County, Norfolk County and the City of Brantford all adopted resolutions to support our application. Individual local council members and both provincial and federal representatives also wrote to show their support, as did the First Nation people from the Six Nations Reserve.

6193 They support us for a variety of reasons, but perhaps MP Bob Speller summarized them best when he noted that the rural area of Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant needs good local information and that only CKPC is able to provide this service.

6194 Numerous local citizens and organizations supported the bringing of a new Country music station to our community, noting that they will bring a new local choice to the dial.

6195 As farmer/business person Ross Illett of St. George put it, our:

"...application for a new 'Modern Country' radio station will complete the availability of music for all tastes in our own market."

6196 Service and community organizations noted our history of strong support of local activities, and they pointed out that they can't get their messages out to the people they serve except on a local radio station.

6197 As the Brant 4-H Association noted:

"Since we are not generally successful in putting Public Service Announcements on out of market stations, we feel another local station with the same dedication to local service will help us. Also the availability of a Country Music Station from Brantford would help us reach more of the Country listeners in Brant County who need our services and presently listen to out of market stations for their music."

6198 Local advertisers also spoke of the need for an additional local media outlet to get their messages to their clients.

6199 As Harold and Goetz Timbermart Hardware noted:

"...with over 40 radio signals coming into the market, adding another local listening choice will provide another music format, more local news, weather, traffic and sports and bring listeners back to local radio from out of market listening, providing us with more local reach and increased efficiency."

6200 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I realize that we are competitive with Canwest for the frequency 91.5, but I want to reiterate what all of the intervenors stated and what we stated: This is an application for Brantford.

6201 As the intervenors pointed out, we need to provide service not just in the City of Brantford but also in the surrounding rural area of Brant, Haldimand and Norfolk Counties. We are an important source of local news, weather, agriculture and other information for them.

6202 A low power or a signal even more restricted than 91.5 will not allow us to reach them and serve their needs.

6203 Canwest has argued that Kitchener must get the 91.5 frequency since it is a bigger centre.

6204 MR. WILSON: Mr. Buchanan, I am sorry to interrupt you. I would just like to remind you, as we have with the other intervenors, to restrict your comments to responding to interventions.

6205 MR. BUCHANAN: This, I believe, was an intervention.

6206 MR. WILSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Buchanan, this was presented in Phase I in Global's Phase I presentation and was not an intervention.

6207 MR. JACKMAN: I think what we took at the end of Phase I was the -- following Phase I we assumed that this was part of an intervention, which was the frequency options that they had submitted which we had not had a chance to see.

6208 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you are referring to the report tabled by Canwest during the hearing.

6209 MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

6210 THE CHAIRPERSON: In that sense, perhaps we could continue.

6211 MR. WILSON: That's fine, Madam Chair.

6212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

6213 MR. BUCHANAN: Canwest has argued that Kitchener must get the 91.5 frequency since it is a bigger centre. Then they went on to suggest what they considered to be adequate technical solutions for us.

6214 Prior to this hearing we had already explored their now suggested solutions. As Mr. Elder, our consulting engineer, noted during our Phase I appearance, all of those proposed solutions don't meet our needs, or more importantly the needs of the listeners.

6215 99.5 is by far the best frequency available for Kitchener. We don't understand why the Commission would move the use of this frequency to Brantford where it would encounter severe protection requirements toward CJBC-4-FM, London, CKFM, Toronto and CBLA-FM Toronto, and would encounter co-channel interference from WDCX in Buffalo.

6216 92.9: The frequency is currently used by CIZN-FM in Cambridge. It would be presumptuous for us to decide that it would be available to us. Even if it were to become available, it does not meet our coverage requirements.

6217 The .5 contour shown by Canwest does not adequately cover Haldimand and Norfolk counties to the south. Mr. Elder plotted the 3 contour for us, and a copy is appended for your perusal. It barely covers Brantford and does not cover most of Brant County.

6218 93.7: Again, the 3 contour, which we have attached, does not adequately cover Brant County and would not cover the communities we serve in Norfolk and Haldimand, such as the Town of Waterford.

6219 There are six different frequencies identified as available for the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge market, but there is really only one frequency available for Brantford and the Brantford market.

6220 As we stated before, we get about 40 outside signals coming in to Brantford and with a numerous formats.

6221 We are in close proximity to Hamilton and Kitchener, as well as Toronto, St. Catharines and London, as well as the Pennsylvania and New York states across the water from us.

6222 As I stated initially on the first day, with comparisons to other cities of similar size to Brantford and the number of units that they have available to them from a radio and a TV standpoint, we would like to also remind you that Chatham, Ontario, much closer to us than the ones we had used before, has a population less than one-third of Brantford. They have 30,000 persons, but they do have three radio stations, one AM and two FM, and they are owned by the same company.

6223 Similarly, Owen Sound, with a population of 36,000 people, also has three local stations, and they are owned by the same company.

6224 The Commission has applications for six different frequencies to provide service in Kitchener. They propose four different types of service: country, various approaches to CHR, two Christian stations and an Aboriginal station. All of which could be licensed and you would still be able to license 91.5 to Brantford.

6225 We need Country 91.5. If the frequency is licensed to anyone else in our area, it will further compound our problem by adding yet another station that fragments the audience but provides no relevant local programming.

6226 Continuing fragmentation will cause severe financial concerns. Unfortunately, and very reluctantly, we will have to consider reducing at some point in time, the level of the service that we provide.

6227 Brantford and Brant County deserve a new local listing choice. They deserve the continued high level of service that we have provided for the past 80 years. Both our community and our company need and deserve Country 91.5.

6228 Thank you very much for your attention.


6229 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Buchanan.

6230 Mr. Secretary, please.

6231 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6232 I will now ask Global Communications Limited to respond at this time.


6233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

6234 MS BELL: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners, Commission staff.

6235 We would like to acknowledge the more than 700 people who sent in letters of support for our proposal and at the same time we would like to thank you for conducting a full, fair and thorough hearing. We have had a full opportunity to discuss our proposal, and we have no other comments.

6236 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6237 Mr. Secretary.

6238 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6239 I will now ask Rogers Broadcasting Limited to respond at this point.


6240 MR. MILES: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, it has been a long morning. We are last, and we have no intention of extending this hearing whatsoever. Many of us here need to get home and get changed for this evening's activities.

6241 We would like to thank the Secretary for allowing us some flexibility with respect to Mr. Hussey's appearance this morning. I won't tell you where he was at 11 o'clock this morning and made it by 11:20.

6242 We would like to also thank all the rest of our positive intervenors.

6243 On behalf of Gavin Tucker, our Manager here in the Kitchener-Waterloo area, I would like to say how proud we are of him and his team and their passion for the product, their commitment to the community, and to thank the Commission for a very fair and good hearing.

6244 Of course we will, as usual, respect all of the decisions emanating therefrom.

6245 Thank you.

6246 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

6247 MR. LEBEL: Madam Chair, this concludes Phase IV of our public hearing.

6248 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

6249 We are at the end of this hearing. I would like to, on behalf of my colleagues, in turn thank the applicants for their collaboration throughout this process and to those who appeared as intervenors and who participated in enhancing our understanding of the issues.

6250 I personally would like to thank my fellow Commissioners on the Panel and, I do agree, the very excellent CRTC staff, the court reporter who has been diligently working with us throughout, and our technicians.

6251 Finally, I would like to thank the goblin who left the spider on my microphone at some point today -- and for the record, a plastic spider.

6252 Without further ado, and before we all do turn into pumpkins, I think it is time to adjourn this hearing.

6253 However, before we do that, Mr. Secretary.

6254 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

6255 I want to point out that there are a number of non-appearing applications on the agenda of this public hearing. Interventions were received on some of those applications, and the Commission will consider these interventions along with the applications, and a decision will be rendered at a later date.

6256 This, Madam Chair, concludes our agenda for this public hearing.

6257 Thank you.

6258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Thank you, all.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1310 /

L'audience se termine à 1310

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