ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Toronto, Ontario - 2002-09-26

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2002-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 27, 2002 le 27 septembre 2002

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

David Colville Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager / Gérant

de l'audience

Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire

Alastair Stewart Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 27, 2002 le 27 septembre 2002

PAGE / PARA NO.

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR

Geethavaani Inc. 1949 / 11559

Humber College 1956 / 11607

Sur Sagar Radio 1959 / 11625

Korean Community Radio 1969 / 11698

Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto 1971 / 11725

Radio 1540 Limited 1977 / 11771

A. Fitzroy Gordon 1991 / 11855

Magic 1610 Markham Radio 2002 / 11906

San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre 2004 / 11923

Infinity Broadcasting Inc. 2011 / 11965

CKMW Radio Limited 2021 / 12020

Catholic Youth Studio 2024 / 12039

Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation 2033 / 12090

Canadian Multicultural Radio 2036 / 12113

ARK Broadcasting Incorporated 2045 / 12172

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Friday, September 27, 2002

at 0903 / L'audience reprend le vendredi

27 septembre 2002 à 0903

11553 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

11554 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

11555 Monsieur le secrétaire.

11556 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11557 We have now reached Phase IV in which applicants will be given ten minutes to respond to all interventions filed regarding their application. This will be done in reverse order from Phase I.

11558 We will hear from Geethavaani Inc. You have ten minutes to make your response.

PHASE IV

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11559 MR. MOHAN: Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.

11560 My name is Jegan Mohan and to my left is Nadarajah Kumarakulasingham.

11561 There are four written interventions in the intervenor's list, and I will respond to each four that deal with Geethavaani.

11562 The first one is CJMR, 1320 Radio Ltd. The intervention no. is 228.

11563 In their written intervention they stated that Geethavaani has the least negative impact on CJMR with regard to Urdu, Bengali and Somali, which will be broadcast a total of six hours a week.

11564 Going to the next one, it is CIRC Limited Inc., intervention no. 285.

11565 This intervention, which I may consider as a catch-all intervention, has a general concern raised in their intervention, but in the case of Geethavaani we are not straying into their territory.

11566 Their concern is that once the radio stations are licensed, they get into languages which are not supposed to be because of CRTC's licensing is that there is no restriction imposed.

11567 So it is an apprehension. But it is very clear from the application of Geethavaani that we are not doing any programming in the languages which they are doing, because these two stations are currently in operation.

11568 Their apprehensions are reasonable, but in the case of Geethavaani we are not impacting on their market at all.

11569 I am going to Michael Battista, item 229.

11570 In essence, that intervention is saying: Don't give a licence to anyone. We are talking about the future in their application. If I may put it in a legalistic term, they are asking for us to have proceedings. Don't look at any applications now. We may come sometime down the road when we are allowed to make an application. At this time we have been shut off; therefore, don't exhaust the frequencies which you have for future purposes.

11571 In essence, in my opinion, it is a stale proceedings. Don't take any action if that is what the Commission has been asked.

11572 I am moving on to the next one, which is Fairchild Radio.

11573 Fairchild Radio, even though they have not directly mentioned Geethavaani, it is again another catch-all intervention. They are concerned about their programming in Mandarin and Cantonese languages, and they say if anybody is given a licence there must be restrictions or conditions attached to maintain the market balance in those two languages.

11574 Geethavaani is not programming in those two languages.

11575 Those are the four interventions which I may call direct interventions and have concerns on Geethavaani's proposed programming.

11576 During Phase II, it became very apparent that there were no interventions on the part of fellow applicants for the application which Geethavaani has made. Geethavaani, as you are aware, is the only applicant seeking 1650 AM frequency.

11577 There are numerous positive interventions which have been forwarded to you in writing, which speak for themselves. I do not intend to elaborate. Those are interventions in support of Geethavaani.

11578 We are cognizant of the fact that the Commission has to maintain a delicate balance in ethnic programming, and that is the one which I was able to see through the intervention letters that don't disturb the market balance. Licensing must be a complementary feature of licensing of the new stations as opposed to creating competition which will disturb the market.

11579 In that respect the Commission has the jurisdiction and the mandate to impose conditions as well as accommodations for granting of licence to maintain a healthy balance to serve the diverse community of Toronto in the years to come.

11580 With regard to the technology which we have identified to be used in our broadcasting, we were elated and encouraged by the numerous questions which followed our initial presentation. If I may put it in one word, the engineer was in much more demand than us in that respect. Everybody wants to talk to the engineer before the engineer disappears.

11581 It is an opportunity which we see, with our technology which we have identified, as well as fellow applicants and others who are interested in ethnic broadcasting approaching Geethavaani for identifying that particular technology and bringing it to the Toronto market, making broadcasting affordable.

11582 We are glad in that sense that we have made a small contribution towards the ethnic broadcasting in particular in the Toronto market when all the new ethnic groups are at a very infant stage and are struggling to serve their community. We have in that respect made our contribution.

11583 What we are looking for is to put that particular technology to the test and to see that we took the right path in that AM frequency.

11584 I now pass it on to Mr. Nadarajah Kumarakulasingham to do the concluding of this particular phase of the proceedings.

11585 MR. KUMARAKULASINGHAM: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11586 I thank you for giving Geethavaani the opportunity to participate at the present hearing to support its application for a radio station to broadcast on 1650 AM frequency in the GTA.

11587 The whole process was enlightening and a learning experience for me in the field of broadcasting, which is my livelihood. In your days of deliberations, if there are any conditions other than those which you have addressed in their initial presentation, we are open to consider those conditions and also consider any other recommendation the Commission feels necessary to foster and promote its ethnic broadcasting policy.

11588 Thank you.

11589 THE CHAIRPERSON: This completes your presentation?

11590 MR. MOHAN: Yes.

11591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

11592 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I have only one question, and I have received your revised Canadian Talent Initiative. I see that you will be awarding scholarships in the amount of $9,000 per year; also buying some rare musical instruments, to the level of $3,000 a year; produce CDs; organizing a concert; and then do a direct donation to the Academy to promote young artists.

11593 The only question I have concerning these revised benefits is concerning the scholarship.

11594 How will the selections of the recipients be made? Will you have an independent committee to select the recipients of the scholarships?

11595 MR. MOHAN: Yes. A committee will be appointed on the advice of the advisory committee, and it will be an arm's length committee. We will not have any influence on it.

11596 If I may elaborate a little bit on that aspect, when we say scholarships, there are numerous schools which are established in Toronto promoting classical dance, classical music and also they are now experimenting, for example, combining rap with Tamil language music to draw the younger generation.

11597 Those are at a very experimental stage.

11598 The scholarship money will be given to the recipient. Pick whichever school you want to go to and where you want to develop your talent.

11599 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It will be for an arts type school.

11600 MR. MOHAN: Yes.

11601 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you. I have no other questions.

11602 MR. MOHAN: Thank you.

11603 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen. This completes your participation.

11604 MR. MOHAN: Thank you so much.

11605 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11606 MR. LEBEL: Madam Chair, I will now invite Humber College to respond at this time.

--- Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11607 MR. CHOMYN: Madam Chair, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, Humber College would like to take this opportunity to respond to interventions filed against our application. I would like to emphasize that we are responding only to the comments that were made against our application in Phase II of this process.

11608 To qualify our position, we also need to correct some numbers that were presented at that time.

11609 One thing that I'm going to say off the top -- and, again, I was a little confused when I heard this -- mention was made that we were only proposing weekend broadcasting. I just wanted to say for the record it is seven days a week, 24-hours a day. It is full service.

0920

11610 The use of 91.9 was deemed -- and I am paraphrasing here -- a wasteful use of a frequency, since the coverage is limited.

11611 I would like to correct the number that has been presented in regards to this argument. It was stated that the new FM would only reach 31,000 people.

11612 On the contrary, our limitation contour will reach 31,380 households, or nearly 100,000 listeners. The .5 millivolt contour will reach 117,300 households, or 300,000 listeners. Surely it is not a waste of a frequency to potentially reach 300,000 listeners.

11613 We would humbly submit that this is a very effective and logical use of this frequency.

11614 With the exception of 101.3, 91.9 FM is the only FM frequency in Toronto technically acceptable at this time to Industry Canada.

11615 The second point that was made in the intervention in Phase II was that this station would not make very much money. We were just a little puzzled and confused, since we are applying for a campus instructional licence to be run by a not-for-profit corporation. Making money is not one of the mandates of this type of licence, although, as noted in our application, we hope to be self-sufficient by year seven, and this will be done without grants but through commercial advertising. This is, again, all part of the instructional mandate of this station.

11616 Humber College emphasizes that the purpose of this reply is for clarification only. We are confident that this new FM station will make a significant contribution to the Canadian broadcasting system.

11617 We thank you and wish all other applicants well with their endeavours.

11618 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Chomyn, I believe?

11619 MR. CHOMYN: Yes, it is.

11620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. This completes your participation in the hearing.

11621 Mr. Secretary, please.

11622 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11623 I will ask Sur Sagar Radio to respond at this time.

--- Pause

11624 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11625 MR. PANNU: Good day, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission. I am Ravinder Singh Pannu, President and only shareholder of Sur Sagar Radio. Beside me is Amarpree. She is the Station Manager.

11626 I am here today to address the interventions to my application, in particular to the document filed by the Canadian Association of Broadcasters dated 23 August. This letter updates an earlier comment submitted 15 April which is appended to their August letter.

11627 While the CAB has not filed direct comments about our application, it opposes the granting of any standalone DAB applications until all other technical options are finished in the GTA and until a proceeding to deal with standalone DAB is held.

11628 First of all, rejecting any DAB applications out-of-hand based on the CAB's policy arguments would be unfair to both Korean Community Radio and Sur Sagar Radio. These applications for DAB are not invented out of the sky, but are in reaction to the Commission's call for applications. The Commission amended the wording for the call by inviting interested parties to file applications:

"...for licences to operate AM, FM and/or transitional digital radio undertakings..."

11629 Clearly the Commission was interested in receiving DAB applications and not only those associated with an AM or FM station.

11630 The CAB bases its opposition on five points.

11631 Number one: There is no business case for standalone DAB stations.

11632 Number two: The value of the spectrum. Here the CAB argued that its members have invested in developing DAB and that there should not be any "gold rush" permitted by those who have not participated in the development.

11633 Number three: The current policy is based upon DAB as a replacement technology. Before granting standalone licences, the CRTC should have a policy review.

11634 Number four: There are not sufficient DAB channels available to meet all needs and to allow standalone licences.

11635 Number five: there are other technical options available, including SCMO.

11636 I would like to address each of these in turn.

11637 The CAB argues that there are not sufficient sets to make a business case for digital radio. Their members are not making any money out of digital radio and therefore a standalone will not.

11638 Madam Chair, we believe that this shows the need to consider a new approach to digital radio. What has driven new radio technology in the past has not been technical improvement, but programming innovation. FM radio only started becoming popular when it provided new and exciting programming alternatives to AM. DAB rebroadcasting the same stations with the addition of data streams to print coupons or to deliver the name of the artist is not really new programming.

11639 We propose to experiment with a different approach. Let's do what digital television and SCMO have already shown. SCMO has shown that ethnic communities will seek out service even when the technical quality is low. Both SCMO and digital cable demonstrate clearly that the ethnic communities are willing to pay a premium to have access to programming. When they do, they can also listen to all of Toronto's DAB stations.

11640 I would also like to point out that the risk is mine and mine alone. It is my investment in this station, not the members of the CAB. If it fails, I will lose the money. I am willing to take that risk, as I did in the past in starting my SCMO and digital television.

11641 This argument contradicts the previous one. If there is no business case, then there will be no "gold rush". The hard work of the existing licensees may well be assisted by the granting of digital licence to serve the half a million South Asians in the GTA.

11642 This argument also assumes that since the existing broadcasters have done the initial work, no one else should benefit. The spectrum, including the DAB spectrum, is public property, not the private reserve of those who have experimented.

11643 Please do not get me wrong, I appreciate the work of the CAB and DRRI in working to deploy sets and develop standards, but I don't believe that only the major broadcasters should have access to it.

11644 The Current Policy

11645 The CAB is wrong on this point as well. The Digital Radio Policy does not state that DAB is only a replacement technology. Instead, it states that standalone applicants will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. This is why, I guess, the Commission's call for applications in Toronto was expanded to include digital radio.

11646 We are willing to accept a digital transitional licence, as we indicated in Phase I. This will give the CRTC and the industry the opportunity to review the impact of our application after an appropriate period of time.

11647 Availability of Spectrum

11648 The CAB argues that there is not enough spectrum to accommodate future needs and our application. The CAB's own argument suggests that, in fact, there will be a minimum of six slots open in the near and medium term. We are quite willing to live with the possibility of being bumped some time in the future if the experimental period shows that this is not a good use.

11649 Other Technical Options

11650 The Commission's report to the Governor in Council notes the limits of SCMO. As an SCMO operator, I have been able to provide service to the Hindi and Punjabi communities quite successfully, but they have to put up with poor quality signals and cannot receive our signal in their cars.

11651 The availability of digital audio will offer a high quality service to complement the service provided by AM and FM stations, both in Toronto and outside, to our SCMO and the two SCMOs currently operating in Toronto without authorization.

11652 We also recognize that the Commission may licence an FM station, or even AM, to serve the South Asian communities. In fact, we are part of one of the applications and that application is our first priority.

11653 However, half a million people is many times the size of, let's say, Kingston, Ontario, currently served by five commercial stations, two student stations and a CBC transmitter. Surely, there is space in the market for the existing stations, a new station, our SCMO and a digital radio.

11654 Conclusion

11655 Our application responds fully to the Commission's call. We will provide service to the still underserved South Asian community in five languages. We will meet the regulation requirement for 7 per cent Canadian content and the Ethnic Policy requirement of an annual contribution to the CAEB's Ethnic Music Catalogue.

11656 We will provide service to a number of the smaller communities in Toronto who have little service at present. This includes the Urdu-speaking community, largely from Pakistan, the Gujurati community and the Indo-Caribbean community, most of whom come from Trinidad and Guyana.

11657 Sur Sagar Radio is a credible broadcaster in the South Asian community. Our record of service since 1987 is a guarantee of the quality of the programming we will provide.

11658 Our existing resources at Sur Sagar Radio and SSTV digital television will permit a high quality product that is different from what we broadcast now. At the same time, our existing resources, including state-of-the-art studios, program feeds and news resources from around the world and popular and credible producers and on-air staff, means that we can provide a quality service at a relatively small incremental cost.

11659 Commissioners, I thought that you would find it interesting to see a DAB set. Korean Community Radio and myself approached a manufacturer who states that they can provide good quality receivers at a reasonable cost.

11660 Thank you. I will be pleased to answer any questions that you might have.

11661 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Pannu.

11662 Commissioner Noël, please.

11663 COMMISSIONER NOËL: One question, Mr. Pannu.

11664 I see on page 5 of your reply, in the first paragraph you mention:

"The availability of digital audio will offer a high quality service to complement the service provided by AM and FM stations, both in Toronto and outside, to our SCMO and..."

11665 Then you mention:

"...the two SCMOs currently operating in Toronto without authorization."

11666 You are referring to which SCMO?

11667 MR. PANNU: There are two that have been doing this long and they are on, I would say -- I don't remember the name of the frequency, but there are two East Indian unauthorized SCMOs running.

11668 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Running actually in the GTA?

11669 MR. PANNU: Yes, at the present time.

11670 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

11671 MR. PANNU: You're welcome.

11672 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I have no other questions.

11673 Thank you.

11674 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Pannu.

11675 M^e STEWART: Madame la présidente, s'il vous plaît, est-ce que je pourrais, avec votre permission...?

11676 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Attendez.

11677 Wait, please. Go ahead.

0933

11678 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

11679 Just to follow up on that, can you provide to the Commission the languages in which the SCMOs break in and legislate without authorization our own broadcasting?

11680 MR. PANNU: Right now we are on SCMO Hindi and Punjabi who lend us their broadcasting.

11681 MR. STEWART: No. You have referred to two SCMOs that are broadcasting without authorization. In what language are they broadcasting?

11682 MR. PANNU: One of that is Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu.

11683 MR. STEWART: Sorry, the first one is in which language?

11684 MR. PANNU: Hindi.

11685 MR. STEWART: Okay. And the second one is in...?

11686 MR. PANNU: Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu, and they are selling a set which can listen all the way -- the person can listen to all the radio through that set.

11687 MR. STEWART: And just for the benefit of the Commission, when you say "without authorization", what do you mean by that?

11688 MR. PANNU: That means they are running under 15 per cent conditions, but largely if we take those programs they are more than 15 per cent ethnic programming in those.

11689 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

11690 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11691 Thank you, Mr. Pannu. This completes your presentation.

11692 MR. PANNU: Thank you.

11693 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you to you and your colleagues for your cooperation.

11694 Mr. Secretary, please.

11695 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11696 We will now ask the Korean Community Radio to respond at this time.

11697 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Please proceed when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11698 MR. LEE: Good morning, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.

11699 Korean Community Radio does not have any specific intervention to respond to. We just want to make a general statement saying that ethnic stations in general are the best way to push digital radio adoption due to the price factor.

11700 Second, ethnics in general will not purchase a radio costing over $200 to listen to potentially one hour of their programming per day, and this goes back to my fragmentation issue that I raised in Phase I.

11701 If single-language stations are not allowed, we will have a radio dial that possibly mirrors the ethnic diversity of Canada on paper, but in reality people will not be listening -- people will not be listening. That's all I have to say.

11702 Thank you.

11703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does this complete your participation?

11704 MR. LEE: Yes, it does.

11705 THE CHAIRPERSON: In this phase.

11706 Thank you very much, Mr. Lee, I believe.

11707 MR. STEWART: Sorry, madame la présidente.

11708 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

11709 MR. STEWART: Just for the record, can you just confirm that 98 per cent of your programming will be in the Korean language?

11710 MR. LEE: That's correct.

11711 MR. STEWART: And 98 per cent will be ethnic programming?

11712 MR. LEE: That's correct.

11713 MR. STEWART: And you would agree to accept those two aspects by way of a condition of licence.

11714 MR. LEE: That's correct.

11715 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

11716 Merci, madame la présidente.

11717 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lee.

11718 This completes your participation in the proceedings.

11719 MR. LEE: Thank you.

11720 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11721 Mr. Secretary, please.

11722 M. LEBEL: Merci, madame la présidente.

11723 Je demanderais maintenant à la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto de répondre à ce moment.

11724 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11725 MR. MATTHEWS: Bonjour, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

11726 My name is John Matthews, consultant to the Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto. I am here to respond today to remarks made by the radio station CHOW from Welland yesterday.

11727 You have heard yesterday that CHOW does not want to give up an inch of its protected coverage, regardless of what that coverage is worth now to CHOW in listenership or in ad sales.

11728 We are not asking CHOW to relinquish any coverage. We want to make that clear, but rather to consider innovative means to engineer full protection of 65 kilometres of its coverage as it is entitled to.

11729 The compromise proposal which we presented to CHOW complies with Industry Canada's protection requirements and requires only one minor exception to Industry Canada's rules.

11730 That exception is due to our proposed use of an antenna that offers even better protection of CHOW and would be possible under the current rules.

11731 Now, this antenna technology is reliable, it's stable, it's proven and it's readily available.

11732 Why would CHOW object based on a rule that limits antenna performance to less than the best that is available to protect this service? CHOW's reluctance to respond to our proposal is perhaps motivated by its wish to preserve as much regional coverage as possible, beyond its 65-kilometre protected radius.

11733 Now, CHOW has a listenable but unprotected signal here in Toronto so, of course, CHOW's owners will say that the use of 91.7 in Toronto is a bad idea. It seems they will even avoid discussions that would protect the first 65 kilometres of their coverage.

11734 Now, we know that Niagara is a tough market with all those Buffalo signals and we are sympathetic to CHOW's situation. But surely a Welland station should not have to rely on its unprotected Toronto listenership to prosper and better serve the Niagara Region.

11735 Mr. Stacey admitted himself yesterday that CHOW's change of location between its original granting of the FM licence and its implementation was in order to allow a simulcast period between the FM and AM services of CHOW.

11736 However, it is commonplace to operate an FM antenna from a live AM tower using an iso-couplet. So the change in location was in fact not required to enable that simulcasting.

11737 The new location for CHOW's FM antenna did result in a strong signal in the communities on the north shore of Lake Ontario. On this we agree -- Oakville, Mississauga and Toronto -- and gives CHOW a strong coverage beyond its protected 65-kilometre distance, well outside of its principal marketing area.

11738 Now, that regional coverage may not result in more listeners or ad sales or better service to the Niagara Region, however it is worth a great deal in trade because the asset value of CHOW derives partly from being able to demand compensation for any infringement within its 65-kilometre protected radius and I am sure CHOW would receive greater benefit from a rich applicant for 91.7 in Toronto who could pay the full fare for reducing CHOW's coverage.

11739 You have heard that with only Lake Ontario in between CHOW's actual signal is stronger in Oakville and Toronto than predicted, thus there would be stronger interference to the proposed service in Toronto than we have shown.

11740 However, the interference area to the Toronto service was predicted according to Industry Canada's rules which we, of course, are compelled to use. However, because CHOW has a stronger signal at 65 kilometres than otherwise predicted, it will consequently be possible to protect CHOW according to the rules while operating a new service at an even higher power in Toronto that is overcoming that stronger interference.

11741 This applicant's proposal rests on a commitment to remedy any interference that may occur on CHOW's signal within that 65-kilometre protected distance.

11742 The Coopérative has committed to submit the test protocol to CHOW to provide remedies at its own cost as required to reduce its power should it be unable to resolve any Oakville interference problems by other means. Thereby we will ensure that CHOW's listeners along the edge of Oakville continue to enjoy an interference-free signal.

11743 We have sought, and we continue to seek, CHOW's cooperation in order to better protect their interests.

11744 We will measure CHOW's signal strength in Oakville along that 65-kilometre radius, and we are willing to build this new Toronto station, to turn it on, to test and to prove to Industry Canada and CHOW that its coverage is protected to 65 kilometres in Oakville.

11745 Now, Industry Canada has often permitted experimental use of frequencies for just this sort of testing. For instance, experimental testing was used by Mr. Stacey in licensing CIRV in Toronto on 88.9 which was the first of Canada's adjacent stations.

11746 So in summary, we submit that 91.7 can be used in Toronto, making room for an important new service to more than one million Toronto listeners with no harm to CHOW within that protected radius.

11747 Give us a chance and we will prove this to you.

11748 That concludes my remarks, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I would be happy to entertain any questions.

11749 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Matthews, Mr. Martel is not here with you today.

11750 MR. MATTHEWS: He sends his regrets this morning.

11751 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Sorry?

11752 MR. MATTHEWS: He sends his regrets. He is unable to attend this morning.

11753 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Matthews, as a consultant I don't think you are in a position to accept or not accept a second choice, but I will ask the question just the same.

11754 If it doesn't work on that frequency, what is your alternative?

11755 MR. MATTHEWS: 105.1 is certainly an alternative that would serve a great many Toronto listeners, however we are confident that we can make this work on 91.7.

11756 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

11757 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you.

11758 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Matthews, is there no one at all here from the Coopérative?

11759 MR. MATTHEWS: Unfortunately not. Mr. Martel was called away on an emergency.

11760 THE CHAIRPERSON: But neither are his colleagues.

11761 MR. MATTHEWS: Apparently not.

11762 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11763 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you.

11764 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will complete la Coopérative's participation in the hearing.

11765 Mr. Secretary, please.

11766 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11767 I will now ask Radio 1540 Limited to respond at this time, and since they had three items on the agenda, they will be granted 15 minutes to respond.

11768 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. You are not trying to intimidate us now, are you?

11769 MR. LOMBARDI: No, this is not a show of force. We are just a very tightknit group.

11770 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11771 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners. Good morning.

11772 For the record I am Lenny Lombardi. With me today are Joe Mulvihill to my left; Shan Chandrasekar to my immediate left; Wayne Stacey on my far right; Donina Lombardi-Hartig in the back row; Theresa Lombardi, my sister; Grace Fusillo-Lombardi; Dario Amaral and Mr. John Hilton.

11773 Intervenors raised two principal concerns with respect to our application.

11774 The AM solution. Some intervenors suggested that our application to use FM frequency 91.9 for the CHIN-AM repeater should be denied because there are AM frequencies that could be used instead.

11775 Mr. Gordon Elder presented two such proposals. In this regard, we were somewhat surprised by Mr. Elder's characterization of himself as "an impartial technical advisor" since he advised on the technical briefs for several of the applications that you are considering at this hearing.

11776 There also was discussion of a low-cost AM transmitter during the presentation of Geethavaani Inc. We asked Mr. Wayne Stacey to review these proposals and to comment on them.

11777 Wayne?

11778 MR. STACEY: Mr. Elder suggested that one option would be to replace CHIN 1540 with 1570 operating into the CHKT antenna at Toronto Island.

11779 Now, there are a number of reasons why this proposal would not be practical. First of all, a 50-kilowatt daytime operation on 1570 at Toronto Island would not be compatible with the proposed 1580 KHz 10-kilowatt operation by CHUC Cobourgh that is currently under consideration under the Commission.

11780 CHUC's proposed 0.5 millivolt per metre contour on 1580 falls between Oshawa and Toronto. CHIN's current 0.5 millivolt per metre daytime contour reaches almost to the CHUC transmitter site around the Port Hope area. So there would be a large overlap of the 0.5 millivolt per metre contours of 1570 and 1580 which is not permitted under Industry Canada's rules.

11781 Second, listeners to CHIN-1 FM would be disrupted by the change to AM. They would lose the benefit of stereo, and they would have to be persuaded to tune the station on the AM band instead.

11782 Third, the high level of electrical noise on the AM band would result in a signal with low technical quality much below that which is now experienced by the CHIN-1 FM listeners.

11783 Fourth, the effective coverage of the 1570 kiloHertz repeater at night would be confined to the 8.5 millivolt per metre interference-free contour that is shown in Mr. Elder's map. That would shift the CHIN-1 repeater coverage westward by an unacceptable amount and result in service to many fewer people.

11784 The population within the 1570 8.5-millivolt contour would be only 165,500 people, as opposed to the 307,300 people within in the proposed 91.9-megaHertz interference-free contour.

11785 Fifth, using the airport site would result in an overlap of the daytime 25-millivolt per metre contours of 1540 from the island site and 1570 from the airport site, and this is prohibited under Industry Canada's rules.

11786 Finally, we can certainly have no assurance that the agreement to use the airport site would be forthcoming on acceptable terms and conditions. The recent increases to the charges for cell site leases at that airport have resulted in fact in the elimination of some services there.

11787 I believe, on another issue, that using an inexpensive roof-mounted antenna such as the one proposed by Geethavaani Inc. would also pose serious problems for CHIN.

11788 These antennas have been around for years. However, they have relatively poor efficiency and coverage due to their short height and the lack of a proper RF groundplane. In my opinion, roof-mounted antennas are best suited for emergency AM transmitters and not for permanent use.

11789 In other words, they are used by a station in an emergency condition over a couple of days where perhaps the main site is out of order because of tower problems or things like that.

11790 AM antennas, in fact, are best operated at ground level where a suitable height and a proper copper wire ground system can be employed to maintain high radiation efficiency. Such a ground system requires too much property located in an area where land is very expensive.

11791 Finally, good AM reception in Toronto requires a substantial signal strength, in fact greater than 5 millivolts per metre, in order to overcome the local electrical noise.

11792 In my opinion, this cannot be achieved over a wide area with a small transmitter and a low efficiency antenna operating at the top end of the AM band.

11793 Lenny.

950

11794 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Wayne.

11795 Commissioners, we continue to believe that FM frequency 91.9 is the only effective alternative to FM frequency 101.3 for the CHIN AM repeater.

11796 As I have said, the loss of our low power repeater, if that were to be the only result of this proceeding for CHIN, would be a very serious blow for our listeners, for our associate producers and for our company.

11797 We will now turn to the second area of concern raised by intervenors, and that is ownership.

11798 Some intervenors have suggested that our application for a new FM 101.3 should not be approved because of concerns related to ownership. Our ethnic radio competitors suggested that ownership of a third radio station would give CHIN a competitive advantage.

11799 We addressed that concern in our written replies to those intervenors. However, I think it is worthwhile to briefly review these key points.

11800 First, ownership of three radio stations falls within the established ownership policies of the Commission even if the relevant market is narrowly defined as the ethnic radio market in the Greater Toronto Area.

11801 Second, our use of the associate producer model ensures diversity of voices and a diversity of community-based responsive leadership and programming.

11802 CHIN-AM 1540 and CHIN-FM 100.7 offer distinct program schedules. They target each different mix of ethnic and linguistic groups.

11803 New FM 101.3 will do the same. It will offer diversity, not duplication.

11804 Our ATN programming will ensure that FM 101.3 will have a well established and well respected new broadcasting voice.

11805 Third, the approval of our application will have a positive impact on competition. Our competitors in the ethnic radio market in Toronto have chosen to diversify into other areas of the industry.

11806 CKMW owns an ethnic AM radio station, CIAO, plus two mainstream FM radio stations, CIDC-FM and CKDX-FM, and is seeking a fourth station in this proceeding.

11807 The Caine family owns an ethnic AM radio station, CJMR, plus two mainstream AM radio stations, including the powerful AM 740.

11808 Fairchild owns an ethnic radio station in Toronto and Vancouver, owns ownership interests in two more ethnic radio stations in Vancouver and Calgary, and owns two national Chinese language specialty television services providing programming in Toronto.

11809 Frank Alvarez owns an ethnic FM radio station, CIRV-FM, plus he operates two ethnic SCMO services and owns an ethnic Category 2 specialty television service that is available in Toronto.

11810 New FM 101.3 would help to level that playing field by allowing us to grow in the ethnic radio market, our chosen area of specialization.

11811 Fairchild believes that it would be placed at a competitive disadvantage because CHKT is subject to conditions of licence which prevent it from scheduling programming in Chinese languages at certain times of the day. In fact, Fairchild has overcome this problem by acquiring airtime -- for quite some time, I might add -- on CIRV-FM each weekday morning for the broadcast of Fairchild-produced Chinese programming.

11812 Between the two stations, CHKT and CIRV-FM, Fairchild offers programming for Chinese listeners from 6:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. each day.

11813 Of course, Fairchild can apply at any time to have these conditions on CHKT licence amended or removed, and CHIN would not oppose such an application.

11814 CKMW even opposed our application for 91.9 for the CHIN-AM repeater notwithstanding that they filed a letter in support of our application for that repeater in 1997.

11815 CKMW understands that the loss of our repeater would seriously wound CHIN-AM, and it appears that they look forward to taking advantage of that weakness.

11816 Clearly, our competitors' interventions are not about CHIN gaining a competitive edge. Their goal is to keep us at a disadvantage or even make that disadvantage greater.

11817 Other intervenors suggested that ownership of a radio station by members of a particular ethnic group is necessary to ensure high quality community-based programming for that group since the only alternative is commercially-based brokerage.

11818 In fact, there is another alternative: the associate producer model which we currently employ and which we have proposed for our New FM 101.3.

11819 The associate producer model is community based and community responsive. It depends for its success on the active involvement of the community, not the ethnicity of the station owner, as is reflected in the supporting interventions that were filed by CHIN associate producers.

11820 We are committed to offering the highest level of service to the South Asian community and to providing for a diversity of voices. We have made a long-term commitment to serve the South Asian community by entering into a seven-year business agreement with Shan and ATN, subject to the approval of our application for a New FM 101.3.

11821 That agreement establishes ATN as associate producer for South Asian programming and requires New FM 101.3 to broadcast at least 48 hours of programming, produced by ATN, each week.

11822 Our agreement with ATN establishes the necessary business relationship to ensure the production and broadcast of the highest quality South Asian radio programming.

11823 As evidence of our commitment to meeting the needs of the diverse South Asian community, we will provide programming in over ten different South Asian languages.

11824 Commissioners, some intervenors have tried to raise concerns with respect to our application for a New FM 101.3, but none have raised a direct comparison of our application with other applications.

11825 You called for applications that would clearly reflect the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of Greater Toronto.

11826 New FM 101.3 will best reflect the diversity of Toronto's ethnic communities. It will serve 24 distinct linguistic groups, more than any other applicant.

11827 Our application is based on a comprehensive demographic research. We recognize that there is a real need for more programming for members of the South Asian community, especially among the smaller linguistic groups.

11828 However, our research also shows there are other fast growing groups with a need for more programming, such as Mandarin-speaking Chinese, Filipino, Spanish and Russian. There is also a need for more programming for longer established communities such as the Caribbean community.

11829 The New FM 101.3 program schedule offers programming to meet all of these needs in a fair and balanced way.

11830 The public notice also required applicants to set up their plans to promote and develop Canadian talent. The New FM 101.3 will make the largest contribution of all applicants to Canadian Talent Development, totalling $455,000 over the term of the licence.

11831 We would now like to thank the many individuals and organizations who took the time to write letters and to appear before you in support of our applications. They have eloquently expressed the concern of the community about the potential reduction in the availability of CHIN AM programming and the excitement of the community with respect to our proposals for New FM 101.3.

11832 We currently provide a valuable service to the public on FM 101.3, and we continue to believe that the public interest would be best served by the approval of our application for a New FM 101.3 and the use of FM frequency 91.9 for the CHIN AM repeater.

11833 Failing that, we would ask that you consider our applications in the following order of priority:

11834 One, the New FM 101.3. If this were to be the only decision in favour of CHIN, we believe that The New FM 101.3 would adequately resolve and eliminate the need for the FM 91.9 repeater for AM 1540.

11835 After careful review of our program schedules for both AM 1540 and our New FM 101.3, we are confident that CHIN can fulfil its conditions, meet all the promises and obligations that have been set forth by these stations.

11836 Two, the flip application.

11837 Three, the application to change the frequency of the CHIN AM repeater to FM frequency 91.9.

11838 Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, in conclusion I would like to mention that CHIN's odyssey to bring additional ethnic services to the Toronto market began in 1999 with the application for AM 740.

11839 Our continued interest and commitment to multicultural broadcasting is evidenced again by our application for The New FM 101.3 service here today.

11840 However, the only applicant at risk at these hearings of really losing something is CHIN. CHIN could lose the use of our current repeater, which we were licensed for in 1997 and which we have used effectively over the last six years, and which we have come to rely on greatly.

11841 In fact, CHIN recognized this particular threat of losing our repeater prior to this call, and CHIN submitted an application for increase of power of 101.3 FM and also proposed to provide new additional ethnic services as an answer to our repeater issue.

11842 CHIN has been proactive in this regard and has continually sought to achieve a technical solution for CHIN AM and, at the same time provide valuable new radio ethnic services for the Toronto community.

11843 I believe that all of our applications that you have seen before us at this hearing reflect the careful thought and consideration that CHIN has put into these applications, and we trust that you will make the most wisest of decisions.

11844 We thank you.

11845 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lombardi and your colleagues. That completes your participation in this proceeding.

11846 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11847 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11848 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11849 I am advised that the next applicant, Mr. Fitzroy Gordon, is delayed due to traffic. Perhaps we could take a break to accommodate him at this point?

11850 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will take a 15-minute break. Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.

--- Upon recessing at 1003 / Suspension à 1003

--- Upon resuming at 1028 / Reprise à 1028

11851 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

11852 Mr. Secretary, please.

11853 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11854 We will now hear from A. Fitzroy Gordon.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11855 MR. KOROMA: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Board and staff.

11856 My name is U-Sheak Koroma on behalf of CARN. I want to first of all thank you very much from the bottom of our heart for giving us this opportunity. We are sorry for being late due to circumstances beyond our control.

11857 Mr. Fitzroy Gordon cannot be here because he is caught up in something beyond his control. He is caught on the 401 at an accident scene, so we are representing on behalf of him. Of course the immediate partner is here with him.

11858 So we thank you once again for giving us the opportunity and for the shore break. I'm quite sure it was useful for some coffee and some relaxation. Thank you.

11859 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we would like to take the opportunity to thank you for your patience and your exemplary attentiveness during these long and challenging days of public hearings. We have provided the Commission, in our letter of September 3, 2002, our written response to the interventions filed against us by CHRY Community Radio Inc., National Campus and Community Radio Association, and L'Arc du Canada et Micro.

11860 We would also like to note that intervenor No. 204, Sankofa Heritage Foundation, has withdrawn its intervention. It is our understanding that it cannot be removed from the public record, but we request of the Commission that this intervention will have no influence on the Commission's consideration of CARN's application.

11861 We would like now to respond to the following intervenors who oppose our application.

11862 CHRY Community Radio Inc.

11863 Let's first of all look at the timing of CHRY's application.

11864 CARN is a believer in community radio. We believe that community radio exists to fulfil an unmet broadcast need for underserved community groups within a certain area.

11865 With this in mind, I requested a meeting, along with Mr. Fitzroy Gordon, the President of CARN, and we met with Mr. Anderson Rouse and Mr. Neil Armstrong, who is the Operations Coordinator and Program Coordinator respectively, at CHRY's offices on Tuesday, August 27th. The objective of this meeting was to listen to their concerns with a view of alleviating, if possible, any of their major reservations with regards to our application.

11866 We are somewhat shocked and surprised to learn yesterday that they did in fact file with the CRTC an application for 105.1 FM less than two weeks after our meeting. We note with absolute curiosity the timing of this application.

11867 It is a fact that CHRY has been licensed on 105.5 since 1987. In their opposing intervention yesterday, CHRY claimed to have identified 105.1 as a possible frequency of interest for them from as far back as 1991.

11868 We have one question for CHRY: Why? Why has it taken 11 years to put together an application from an "established longstanding member of the broadcast community?" -- as they refer to themselves. CHRY has referred, in their written submission to CARN, as an "untried new player". I submit, Madam Chair, that perhaps CHRY has never heard of the phrase "Rookie of the Year".

11869 With regards to community support, CHRY also claimed in their submission yesterday to provide support to community groups. One such group mentioned was the Jane-Finch Concerned Citizens Association. It must be pointed out that the Executive Director of the Jane-Finch Concerned Citizens Association, Mr. Winston Larose, in his public endorsement of CARN's application on Wednesday during his intervention has this to say:

"We have a strong cultural presence that everyone takes advantage of in their presentations, whether it is festivals or whether it is broadcast opportunities, where we see Africans performing in various capacities, but never owning the medium, never having any rights or opportunities to hire or promote opportunities for their own people. It is something that we take very seriously. We feel, and I feel in particular, that this is something that has to be corrected immediately." (As read)

11870 MR. MARCELLS: CARN believes that it is time for our community of over half a million to stop putting their broadcast destiny in the hands of part-time student broadcasters who, in our opinion, do not reflect all our community views or aspirations.

11871 CHRY acknowledges their inability to provide justifiable, effective, adequate and quality programming to the Caribbean and African communities when they claim that their intervention would have been withdrawn had we not filed for 105.1. They do not dispute the broadcast need of our community, they seem to be saying any other frequency but 105.1 FM.

11872 Madam Chair, we recall that you mentioned to intervenor No. 229, Mr. Michael Battista, that although the Commission has many powers, it does not have the power to reserve any frequency for any application that is not yet gazetted.

11873 MR. KAROMA: U-Sheak Koroma is my name.

11874 CARN has no reason not to trust the expertise of our engineer, Mr. Gordon Elder of Elder Engineering, who is one of Canada's pre-eminent broadcast engineers for many decades. In his letter of August 30, 2002 to CHRY -- copied to Industry Canada advising them of our application -- he clearly stated that given the location of our proposed transmitter site, First Canadian Place, and CHRY's transmitter site, York University, both stations may be "mutually compatible". I repeat that: Both stations may be "mutually compatible."

11875 It is his opinion that CHRY would not be protected from interference according to BPR Part III second adjacent criteria. Section E-1.2.2 of PBR III clearly states that:

"Interference to and from existing stations and allotments is not deemed to exist if the distance separation requirements set forth in Section E-1.3.2 are met."

11876 Therefore, Madam Chair, given the location of our proposed broadcast transmitter site, we therefore do not consider CHRY's argument of any interference to be technically plausible.

11877 However, should there be any interference it would be insignificant and, furthermore, it would be incumbent upon CHRY to remedy the situation as per Industry Canada rules.

11878 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, with regards to the intervention on behalf of CHRY that the best use of the frequency would not be served it if is given to CARN, CARN refutes the claim by CHRY that the granting of 105.1 FM to CARN on behalf of the over half a million strong African and Caribbean Canadians, would not be the best of this frequency.

11879 We find it difficult to balance the wishes of CHRY against the desire and objective of the Commission to ensure that new stations reflect the diversity and linguistic characteristics of the GTA. CARN will be a 100 per cent ethnic station providing programming to the underserved groups of Africans and Caribbean heritage.

11880 CARN therefore believes, as we have stated before, in community radio and believes that community radio has a role to play in our society. With this in mind, CARN is prepared to make a financial contribution to CHRY's annual fundraising campaign. We are also prepared to work with CHRY to avoid programming scheduling conflicts. These commitments were clearly enunciated to Messrs. Anderson and Armstrong during our aforementioned meeting. CARN, again, is also committed to providing job opportunities for qualified broadcast trainees from all local community radio stations, colleges or university.

11881 Members of the Commission and Madam Chair, we have many years of broadcast experience on our management team, we have broadcast studios ready to go and surely intend to be the "Rookie of the Year".

11882 MR. KOROMA: Members of the Commission, I arrived in Canada many years ago and one thing that has made me proud as a Canadian citizen whenever I travel is the respect shown to our nation as one of tolerance and fairness, a nation that recognizes that equality of treatment is a fundamental principle on which we build our constitution, a nation that fosters and encourages the coexistence of diverse cultures, nationalities, languages and religion into one harmonious fabric we call Canada.

11883 Our exemption request from broadcast regulation section 7(2) is premised on the need to engender a harmonious integration of peoples of Caribbean and African heritage into the wider Canadian society.

11884 L'Arc du Canada et Micro in their objection to our application has tried to differentiate between the needs of the French-speaking Africans of Montreal and the English-speaking Africans of Toronto. We strongly object to this attempt to divide us along linguistic lines when it seems to suit one's objective. We would advise L'Arc du Canada et Micro to get a copy of the prominent reggae artist Peter Tosh's African Anthem which states:

"No matter where you come from, as long as you are a black man, you are an African."

11885 MR. LEBEL: Excuse me, gentlemen, your time has expired.

11886 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will give you a couple of minutes to conclude.

11887 MR. BLYTHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11888 In closing, CARN has sojourned from the conception of a vision through the rigorous process of preparing our application, through the flood of 5,000 letters of intervention, and our emphatic and passionate presentations during this hearings. We have done this because we truly believe that we will increase the reflection of the cultural, linguistic and racial diversity of Canadian society in radio as set out in CRTC Public Notice 2001-10.

11889 We will promote and contribute significantly to the development of Canadian talent, including local, regional and national.

11890 We will strengthen the cultural and racial diversity of programming available in the GTA radio market by offering for the first time the choice of tuning into a dedicated authentic voice for the over half a million strong African and Caribbean people residing in the GTA.

11891 We will provide a much needed service to at least 22 groups in 14 languages,

11892 And, Madam Chair, we will be 100 per cent ethnic programming, 100 per cent African and Caribbean-owned, 100 per cent African and Caribbean programming, news, talk, talk forum, sports, music and religion.

11893 On behalf of all our young people, our working people and our seniors, my colleagues, Mr. Fitzroy Gordon, myself, Mr. Delford Blythe, Mr. U-Sheak Koroma and Mr. George Marcells from the African community, thank you for this opportunity to express our community dreams and aspirations.

11894 But if I could just leave you with one quote from Mr. Fitzroy Gordon's dear grandmother who passed away in June, as she would say:

"Mama may have...

Papa may have...

But God bless the child who got his own..."

11895 Thank you very much.

1043

11896 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen.

11897 I hope that Mr. Gordon's encounter with Isadore ends happily.

11898 MR. BLYTHE: I will relay your concern and I am sure he will appreciate.

11899 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will complete, then, your participation in this proceeding. Thank you.

11900 MR. BLYTHE: Thank you.

11901 MR. KOROMA: Thank you.

11902 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11903 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11904 We will now hear from Magic 1610 Markham Radio.

--- Pause

11905 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Rogers.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11906 MR. ROGERS: Good morning, Madam Commissioner and fellow Commissioners.

11907 I will keep this very short and brief, but I would like to add, before I address the interventions against me I would like to say one thing. I am sitting here proof -- a lot of the Commissioners over the last two weeks have been asking about the expanded band and what type of power and they even asked that question yesterday.

11908 I agree with what Mr. Stacey earlier presented. As you know, Magic Markham Radio had a temporary permit for the last eight months. In eight months we had that temporary permit. I am living proof that we tried that whip antenna, as it is called, and at the power we tried it at and then Industry Canada was interested to see how far we could really go and we extended our power. I can tell you that you will get with a roof antenna a radius of two to nine kilometres, depending on the way the wind blows and that is in Markham, Ontario, and we don't have the high designation as in Toronto.

11909 I don't know if that clears up a lot of things, but the whip antenna doesn't work. I agree with Mr. Stacey. It's really for a real, real low emergency power, whereas our tower site is something different with 155-foot tower.

11910 Getting to the interventions, very simple. The only one that I am really going to address here is the CJMR intervention, and that was basically mostly on paper anyways, where they were very confused with our application. As I addressed the Commissioners before, this is an older application.

11911 It was for York Region. We have gone through all that and I think the basics of their objection, they didn't understand because they weren't looking at it as the way they should have been looking at it. It was very simple.

11912 It is very hard over the years to try to explain where York Region is. So in our application, yes, there is a lot of directories. That's what they were objecting to because they couldn't understand the application. The reason there was a lot of directories and items like that, I wanted to get proof of population figures. I wanted to get proof of the gross national product -- I wanted to do that right from the municipalities themselves.

11913 So addressing that intervention that they kept harping on about this whole application is directories and things like this, that is one of the main reasons why.

11914 The second one is the San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre, and I will go on record saying that I support them. I fully support them and I will assure them of that now, with the exception of again the frequency.

11915 If by chance the Commission feels that Magic Markham Radio and York Region GTA Radio would be the better frequency, I would hold out my hand to welcome them to come into our situation where we could maybe supply the best of both worlds.

11916 I would like to thank the Commissioners for all their hard work and everything else. That's it for me.

11917 Any questions?

11918 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Rogers. That completes your participation in these proceedings.

11919 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.

11920 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11921 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11922 I will now ask the San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre to respond at this point.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11923 MR. PLUNKETT: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11924 My name is Wayne Plunkett. I am a consultant for San Lorenzo. I am just going to say a couple of sentences to start.

11925 San Lorenzo replied in writing I think adequately to the negative interventions that we received and generally speaking we do not have a lot more comments to do with that.

11926 I will just mention that one of the interventions was from BAF Audiovisual who currently holds a licence for 1610, but has not been operational for the last couple of years and we understand that -- well, we know that the operation that they had was for 99 watts which is unprotected on the frequency anyways.

11927 Just one brief comment following up on what Frank Rogers just mentioned. For the record, San Lorenzo's proposed transmitter site is not a roof-top one. It's on the ground in a normal type of AM situation with enough land available to adequately provide a proper ground system.

11928 So we are confident that our signal would cover the extent of the GTA that we have always planned for.

11929 Thank you. I now turn it over to Father Hernan.

11930 FATHER ASTUDILLO: Buenos dias. Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11931 Thank you once again for the opportunity to share with you the essential and urgent needs for a Latin American community radio station within Toronto.

11932 Over the past two weeks, you have heard the voices and whistles of many birds who have expressed their dreams and hopes.

11933 We have conveyed to you the consequences of isolation and silence and it is our hope that the community radio station will erase that silence, continue singing the songs of the excluded and be the Latino voice in this city.

11934 Toronto will be enriched by the new cultural rhythm and the 21 Hispanic countries will have the opportunity to contribute and communicate through this radio station.

11935 Our community centres, sports, clubs, cultural groups, music bands, charity organizations, poets, writers and historians will have the freedom and the chance to share, enrich and express their voices of hope from the cultural diversity towards the voice of unity.

11936 Licensing our community radio station will be the glass of hope in our daily silence, a drop of love to assist, encourage and support the needs of our children, youth, parents and seniors. It will be a vital tool to promote and enrich our own skills and talents, with our own voices in this multicultural mosaic of Toronto.

11937 We hope that the CRCT will grant us the licence for a Latin American community radio station and that together we will bring this vision to fruition within the near future.

11938 Muchas gracias. Merci beaucoup. Thank you very much.

11939 MR. CARRANZA: Good morning, Madam Chairman. Good morning, Commissioners.

11940 I am deeply proud to have the opportunity to address you once again on behalf of the Latin American community of Toronto. This is a very important day for us.

11941 The San Lorenzo community radio station seeks to serve the communication needs of the fastest growing ethnocultural group in Toronto. Our rate of growth is between 6 and 8 per cent per year, while immigration to Canada continues from South and Central America as well as the Spanish-speaking Caribbean. Our numbers will only increase.

11942 I am also humbled to speak to you as a member of an underserviced and marginalized community with deep social problems such as child poverty, low education, substance abuse, family violence and serious health issues.

11943 On the other hand, our community is also immensely rich, rich in musical and artistic talents, rich in professional, academic and technical expertise, as well as having a rich radio culture that has made significant contributions to the world of community radio, as pointed out by some of our intervenors in earlier presentations.

11944 Despite all its work and vision, the San Lorenzo community radio knows that it will not be the panacea to all the problems of our community, but just as the CBC is often cited as an essential ingredient in the shaping of Canadian identity, we are convinced that the San Lorenzo community radio can and will play a key role in the integration, development and growth of a very talented yet marginalized community to make a very special contribution to this country.

11945 Despite the wide success of Latin American music and dances, little has been done to challenge the already tired commercially made Latin stereotypes, or for promoting local musical talent.

11946 Little has been done to promote the debate of local social issues affecting Latino-Canadians or our sense of civil responsibility, and our limited stake in society. We will strive to promote the discussions on our sense of identity as Latino-Canadians and provide a forum in which we can assist ourselves while enriching with our literature, music, culture and thought this great country we call Canada.

11947 San Lorenzo community radio is a dynamic project that combines communication and diversity, providing a forum for training and discussion of the issues that affect all Canadians and how these impact upon our community. Our volunteers have the experience and commitment to these goals. We are ready to go and we are awaiting a decision.

11948 The San Lorenzo community radio proposes to broadcast local-based quality programming to the homes of more than 175,000 listeners with ties to 21 distinct Spanish-speaking nations and thousands of listeners in the Filipino as well as the Italian and Brazilian communities in the GTA.

11949 Some of our varied cultural expressions include the Argentinean Tango; the Dominican Merengue; Afro-Cuban Jazz; the Cumbia from Colombia; Andean Zomponas; Brazilian Samba; the Spanish Flamenco; Caribbean Cha-Cha; Venezuelan Ballenato; Picasso; Mexican Corridos; Salvadorian Pupusas; Trova Latina; Chilean Cuecas; Son Garifono; Bolivian Sayas; Garcia Marquez; Almodovar and everyone's Salsa, and on, and on, and on.

11950 Latinos are North, Central and South Americans, from the Tropics and the Andes, Indigenous, European, Afro-Latinos and Mestizo.

11951 We are deeply committed to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and we have a proven track record in this regard. Our community festivals featuring local talent and informative roundtable discussions and seminars on important local issues to speak to this.

11952 Some of our intervenors such as Joe Mihevic also alluded to this in terms of his own participation in our community centre addressing civic issues.

11953 In addition to the many statistics that we previously shared with you, many of the applicants here have also included some form of Spanish radio programming in their commercial radio applications. This is a clear testament of the publicly acknowledged demand for a Spanish-speaking radio.

11954 Chicago already boasts four Spanish-language radio stations. We propose to respond with a single unique, engaging, thought-provoking, quality radio station made in Canada. Our time has come.

11955 We thank you very much for listening to our presentation.

11956 Merci beaucoup y muchas gracias.

11957 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Father Astudillo and Mr. Carranza.

11958 This completes your presentation in this proceeding.

11959 MR. CARRANZA: Thank you.

11960 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11961 Mr. Secretary, please.

11962 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11963 I will now ask Infinity Broadcasting Inc. to respond at this point.

11964 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Proceed when you are ready.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

11965 MR. RAY: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11966 My name is Neeti Ray, and I am President of Infinity Broadcasting.

11967 On my left is Mr. Stien Lal, and next to him is Renu Ray.

11968 On my right is Radika Ray and Mrs. Mala Sennik.

11969 At the table behind me is Mr. Jim Robson and Hans Jansen.

11970 Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity has responded in full to those outside interventions relative to our application. Other than CJMR, we have no further comment on those submissions.

11971 Throughout these proceedings WTOR has been discussed by several applicants and intervenors. Infinity takes serious issue with comments made by some with respect to the impact of WTOR on Toronto's ethnic radio market on Infinity's business plan and on our efforts to repatriate Canadian listeners and radio advertising dollars.

11972 While it is generally agreed that WTOR has an impact on Toronto's radio market, many of the comments relative to revenues and audience were based on guesstimates and rhetoric rather than on hard research data and actual market experience.

11973 CKMW referred to low rates on WTOR. CHIN described WTOR producers as independent brokers trying to get something going. And CJMR, whose written intervention failed to even mention WTOR, was suddenly expressing grave reservations about its impact on Infinity's business plan.

11974 CHIN also stated that the WTOR component was not a significant factor of its application and that its business plan was not predicated on targeting the WTOR revenue base or dependent on it for the success of its South Asian programs.

11975 Against that background, Infinity feels it necessary to set the record straight by putting WTOR into its proper context relative to our application, which others have attempted to cloud at best, through mischievous innuendo.

11976 MS RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, let me be perfectly clear. If Infinity is granted 101.3 FM, our station will be very successful, because it will fulfil the high quality programming demands of Toronto's largely underserved South Asian community.

11977 With a South Asian population of more than 500,000 to draw from, it is axiomatic that advertising dollars will follow Infinity's high quality Hindustani programming and its large core audience of Greater Toronto's South Asian listeners.

11978 One of the significant by-products of Infinity's South Asian owned, Toronto-based FM station is that its high quality locally relevant programming will repatriate the majority of listeners tuning to WTOR in the absence of a Canadian radio alternative.

11979 Again, it is axiomatic that repatriated advertising dollars will follow Infinity's audience base and its high quality, locally relevant Hindustani language based programming.

11980 Having said that, if Infinity found itself in the improbable position of not repatriating a dime from WTOR, it would not impact on Infinity's ability to fully execute its business plan and all attendant commitments.

11981 The reality is that Infinity has a solid business base of former clients who do not advertise on WTOR and have been patiently waiting for us to return to Toronto's airwaves.

11982 Added to our existing client base is the fact that the South Asian business community has grown by a minimum of 1500 new businesses since Radio India left the air in 1998.

11983 One might ask: If such is the case, then why even mention WTOR or repatriation in your application? The answer to that is because the WTOR factor is for real and its growing impact is significant.

11984 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, WTOR has been a factor in Toronto's ethnic radio market since 1998 when Radio India, with its 61.5 hours of predominantly Hindustani programming, was lost to South Asians and their business community.

11985 The net beneficiary of Radio India's exodus was WTOR, a Serbian-owned AM station offering European programming. On realizing the huge opportunity within Toronto's South Asian community, WTOR quickly adapted a South Asian programming format to take full advantage of the void left by the departure of Radio India.

11986 Infinity first made mention of the WTOR factor in its Toronto application for 740 AM in the February 2000 public hearing.

11987 At that time, we talked about the WTOR impact and the fact that Infinity, with its history of providing high quality local programming to Toronto's South Asian community, would repatriate its former Radio India listeners and radio dollars from WTOR.

11988 Infinity has talked at length about WTOR in our 101.3 FM application because it is rather difficult to ignore.

11989 We have talked about it because two extensive market studies by Pollara and Bay Consulting Group (BCG) have measured and documented WTOR's impact on Toronto's ethnic marketplace in terms of audience and revenues.

11990 We have talked about it as proud ethnic Canadian broadcasters who are concerned that WTOR has moved into Toronto's radio market and claimed "squatter rights" without any regulatory accountability, or responsibility to local talent, or to the South Asian community, or to the Canadian broadcasting system.

11991 The fact that Pollara's research shows that 18 per cent of South Asians are listening to WTOR for 7.25 hours per week, on average, which translates into nearly 500,000 weekly tuning hours, and that BCG's study estimates that well in excess of $1 million is flowing annually from Toronto's ethnic radio market to Youngstown, New York, should be cause for concern amongst Toronto's ethnic broadcasters and motivate them to do something about it.

11992 MS RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, of all the applicants before you Infinity is best positioned to repatriate Canadian listeners and advertisers from WTOR because we have served that same audience and its attendant business community for nearly ten years. They know us, they trust us, and they remain loyal to us.

11993 This is evidenced by the fact that we have received unsolicited commitment letters from 20 of our former Radio India advertisers who will divert $356,800 to Infinity's 101.3 FM if we are licensed. They are currently using WTOR because there is no programming alternative.

11994 By comparison, CHIN estimated that it would repatriate some $80,000 in advertising revenues from WTOR.

11995 WTOR's commercial logs for April 12, 2002 showed 400 commercial spots being utilized by GTA South Asian businesses between 6:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m., of which Infinity identified 61 businesses which formerly advertised with Radio India.

11996 In total, we estimate that out of a former Radio India client base of 600 advertisers, approximately 160 are using WTOR.

11997 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, I would add that during my regular canvass of the South Asian business community for advertising support for my weekly television show on CHCH, I am booking business from former clients who are also advertising on WTOR. Almost without exception, these advertisers are saying: "Neeti, as soon as you get your radio station, we will be back."

11998 In viewing the results of the Pollara and BCG market studies and the prominence of WTOR therein, we felt it important to share such empirical data with the Commission to underline the magnitude of the WTOR factor, and even more importantly to put forward a Canadian solution.

11999 Canadian broadcasters have a history of repatriating audiences and radio and television revenues from American undertakings along the 4,000-mile Canada/U.S. border from New Brunswick to British Columbia.

12000 Whether it is Irving's new FM station in St. Stephen's repatriating Canadian listeners and advertisers from U.S. border stations at Calais, Maine, or Milestone taking back listeners and dollars from WBLK-Buffalo, or CIVI-TV repatriating viewers and dollars from KVOS, Bellingham, the fact is that repatriation is a win-win-win situation for the Canadian broadcasting system.

12001 In any repatriation effort relative to WTOR, Infinity is in the unique position of repatriating an audience and radio dollars from a community that it has already served for nearly a decade -- a community that has remained in waiting for over three years in the hope that Infinity will return to Toronto's airwaves with its own dedicated ethnic radio station.

12002 MS RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, of all the South Asian applicants, Infinity's proposal will serve the largest number of the more than 500,000 South Asians living in the Greater Toronto Region.

12003 This is because Infinity's Hindustani programming with its universal understanding and acceptance amongst the 22 distinct language groups within Toronto's South Asian community is the one common denominator that will bring together those many diverse cultural elements.

12004 Infinity will also provide 15 prime time hours of Tamil programming that nicely complements the existing overnight block of 42 hours of Tamil programming available in the Toronto market, as well as three Tamil SCMO undertakings.

12005 As well, Infinity's nine hours of high quality Punjabi programming complements existing Punjabi programming and will play an important role, along with our Hindustani programming, in providing head-to-head competition for WTOR.

12006 MR. RAY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, Infinity will best optimize the utilization of the 101.3 MHz frequency in the interests of the 14 ethnocultural communities and 19 different language groups that we are committed to serve, and the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.

12007 We respectfully ask you for your approval of 101.3 FM.

12008 Finally, Madam Chair, on behalf of all my Infinity colleagues, I wish to sincerely thank you for a thorough and fair hearing. Despite your heavy work load, you retained a sense of humour throughout. We wish you well in your deliberations.

12009 I would also like to thank the more than 6,300 intervenors who intervened in our support, including more than 120 organizations.

12010 Thank you.

12011 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Ray.

12012 We had to retain our sense of humour last night when this hotel was evacuated between 12:00 and 1:00 in the morning.

12013 MR. RAY: Yes. We were there.

12014 THE CHAIRPERSON: It did occur to us that maybe some of the applicants were working too hard on their Phase IV presentations and the alarm had been set off by the heat generated.

12015 Thank you very much. This completes your participation in the hearing.

12016 MR. RAY: Thank you.

12017 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

12018 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair. I will now ask CKMW Radio Limited to respond at this time.

12019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

12020 MS LAURIGNANO: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

12021 My name is Carmela Laurignano of CKMW Radio Limited. On my left is Don Currie.

12022 We are here to respond to any matters the Commission may want us to elaborate on, but before that we have one small piece of unfinished business that arose from Phase I, which has now been made a bit more significant because of the discussions with CJMR and Fairchild in their interventions. It will just take on moment.

12023 Madam Chair, you invited us to consider and confer our position and perhaps make further comment in answer to the following question by Commission counsel. I quote:

"Would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence that a minimum of 45 per cent of all ethnic programs broadcast would be in the languages of Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, Bengali, Tamil, Gujarati, Malayalam, Marati, Konkani and Spanish, which is a reflection really of your programming schedule?" (As read)

12024 End quote.

12025 With your permission, we want to put our response and our reasons on the public record for this hearing.

12026 In Phase I we responded by making clear our concerns regarding conditions of licence that would tie anyone's hands in a marketplace where others may not be so restricted, or to be limited or prohibited from moving into another niche if preemptive strikes or market conditions impose undue hardships.

12027 We did say as well that if the market forced us to move, we would find another unoccupied niche, it not being our plan to duplicate anything that is already part of the radio market.

12028 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we looked carefully at what the Commission may need us to do. We recognized in the circumstances the Commission's need to ensure the greatest service to the largest number of groups and to have the comfort that these groups have a deservedly permanent place on the Toronto radio dial.

1115

12029 We are also aware of the concerns of existing broadcasters in the market which the Commission must also consider.

12030 With all our South Asian programming commitment, as well as the Spanish-language programming fitting well within the proposed condition of licence, we feel we will be able to meet the 45 per cent proposed minimum requirement and still have the sufficient flexibility to deal with the changes in the marketplace.

12031 Therefore, however reluctantly, we would answer Mr. Stewart's question in the affirmative.

12032 Thank you. We are now prepared to answer any questions you may have of us.

12033 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. Laurignano --

12034 MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, and we wish everyone a good weekend.

12035 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and Mr. Currie. This completes your presentation. Thank you.

12036 Mr. Secretary, please.

12037 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12038 I will now ask the Catholic Youth Studio to respond at this point.

--- Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

12039 FATHER GIL: Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.

12040 First, a correction at paragraph 1635 of the transcript. The youth from 15 to 24 population of the GTA is 608,000 and the Catholic youth from 15 to 24 is about 240,000.

12041 You called for radio that clearly reflects the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA. Catholic Youth Studio responded on behalf of the multi-ethnic Catholic community.

12042 There are Catholic parishes for 38 different language groups in the GTA. We would like to serve them all. But there are only 18 hours in the broadcast day, so we chose 11 languages based on population and number of parishes. We included Filipino and Vietnamese because they are underserved.

12043 For part of each day we will have Catholic multicultural programming in English. Our radio audience will be, like Father Regulo described his parish in his intervention: Catholics from dozens of different ethnic groups gathering in one place, on the radio dial.

12044 We will also have daily affordable access hours for other groups. At least 60 per cent of our programming will be ethnic and third language. Another 30 per cent will be multicultural, as defined in Category E in Schedule C of the Radio Regulations.

12045 Although this is based on the 1985 Ethnic Policy, it is still a good description of multicultural radio.

12046 I quote:

"A program the spoken word content of which is in French or English and that is directed toward ethnic groups or the general public and that depicts Canada's cultural diversity through services that are multicultural, cross-cultural or inter-cultural.

12047 Catholic Youth Studio will thus make this commitment, or as a condition of licence:

12048 In addition to other conditions of licence, at least 90 per cent of our programming will be ethnic and multicultural, as defined in Schedule C of the Radio Regulations.

12049 You have asked for a minimum percentage of programming in particular third languages. We propose a minimum of 40 per cent of total program hours. At least two-thirds of our third-language programming will be from our 11 third languages for the term of our licence.

12050 I turn now to religion as part of the multi-ethnic diversity of the GTA.

12051 In Phase II, I commended the religious programs in other applications. Religion is part of the multicultural reality because of the many different faiths in the GTA, including all of the major religions.

12052 Religion is also multicultural in a shared sense. People from many different languages share a common faith. As you have heard, this is particularly true of the multi-ethnic Catholic community. The Polish Canadian Congress said in its intervention:

"Many people assume that religious programming is exclusively directed to prayers and other devotions. In fact, the majority of religious broadcasting typically deals with literature, history, issues of morality and personal growth, and a wide array of thought-provoking questions that directly affect our daily lives."

12053 The Religious Broadcasting Policy defines "religious" as:

"...anything directly relating to, inspired by, or arising from an individual's relationship to divinity, including related moral or ethical issues".

12054 As Radio Plus Toronto commits to programming which is 90 per cent ethnic and multicultural, we will also commit to 90 per cent religious programming. I gave that answer to you, Madam Chair, in our appearance last week.

12055 Our programming will be predominantly, but not exclusively, from a Catholic perspective. Ecumenical dialogue with other faiths is an important part of the Catholic perspective. The Focolare Movement made this point in its intervention.

12056 In addition, we have made clear commitments to religious balance, including our multi-faith religious balance committee.

12057 I now turn, finally, to demographics. Intervenor Paul Kromer pointed out that language groups based on recent immigration, such as Asian, and those based on historical immigration, have different demographics. Radio Plus Toronto seeks to cater to all: young, older and in between; recently arrived and needing help, our third generation, but with strong ties to a homeland culture.

12058 Our programming format will also be different from that of any other service. Catholic programming is an unserved category in the GTA, except for the 13 hours that Catholic Youth Studio provides on a brokered basis.

12059 At least 15 third-language groups have more weekly hours of programming than Catholics do: several European language groups; South Asian language groups such as Hindi, Punjabi, Tamil and Pashtu; and both Chinese languages, Mandarin and Cantonese.

12060 There will soon be two million multi-ethnic Catholics spread all over the GTA. Catholics are 36 per cent of the population. This is the largest GTA audience of any of the applications before you.

12061 We are realistic. We do not expect Radio Plus Toronto to reach all two million Catholics right away, especially with 34 or 36 GTA radio stations. However, Radio Plus Toronto does hope to reach a significant portion of its Catholic audience at least weekly. To do that, we need to be one of the buttons on their car radios, but we also need Catholic Radio to be there with a clear signal when the button is pushed. This means we need a frequency like 101.3 FM to reach as much of the GTA as possible, as much of the multi-ethnic Catholic population as possible.

12062 Finally, Madam Chair and Commissioners, may I express the admiration and appreciation of our application team to the Members of this Panel. It is an enormous task to master thousands of pages of material. An applicant must master just one application. You have to consider in detail all 17.

12063 Thank you very much. We wish you Godspeed in your deliberations.

12064 Thank you.

12065 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Father Gil. We will need even God to help.

12066 This completes your participation in this -- oh, I'm sorry. Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

12067 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12068 I just wanted to make sure I understood a couple of points that you have mentioned today on the conditions of the licence and the percentages.

12069 What you have said is that you would commit to programming 90 per cent ethnic and multicultural programming. Could I read that as you would accept a condition of licence on that and are we looking at ethnic programming, meaning programming aimed at specific ethnic groups?

12070 MR. MARCHANT: Commissioner, the commitment is to 60 per cent ethnic, meaning directed to specific ethnic groups.

12071 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

12072 MR. MARCHANT: Also 60 per cent third language, as set out in the application. Almost all the rest of the programming, which will be in English and some in French, is of a multicultural kind, but because it is directed to a multiethnic Catholic community in a shared language would not qualify as directed to just one group.

12073 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.

12074 MR. MARCHANT: So the intent, I think, was to propose a way of describing that, clearly multicultural -- it is clearly multi-ethnic, but it isn't directed just to one group.

12075 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. Okay.

12076 Where you say today a minimum of 40 per cent of total program hours will be from our 11 third languages, we were looking at -- the questions we had asked were trying to use the percentage of 50 per cent or more, or just above, and we take the top languages that would fit into 50 per cent. All your languages are the same amount. Instead of the 40 per cent as you proposed here, would you be prepared to have a condition of licence which said a minimum of 50 per cent of total program hours will be from our 11 languages and we would name those 11 languages?

12077 FATHER GIL: Fifty per cent of the languages that we propose or 50 hours of the programming?

12078 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Fifty per cent of the total programming is what we have done.

12079 You have proposed 40 per cent and the question we were asking everybody was: Could we name the languages that would be covered under 50 per cent.

--- Pause

12080 FATHER GIL: If we commit to 50 per cent it looks like we would be able to change only one language so we will be very limited in our manoeuvring in order to serve this community.

12081 We are open, as I mentioned, to serve two-thirds of the languages and accept that as a condition of licence in order to have some space because of immigration or anything like that.

12082 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, that's fine. I wanted to just pose the question to see what your response was and that clears it up.

12083 Thank you.

12084 FATHER GIL: Thank you.

12085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Father Gil and your colleague.

12086 This completes your participation in the hearing.

12087 Mr. Secretary, please.

12088 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12089 We will now hear from the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation.

--- Pause

1130

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

12090 MR. SIVASOTHY: Good morning, Ma dam Chair and Commissioners.

12091 CTBC's comments are very general. I would like to start by thanking Member of Parliament Maria Minna, Mr. Peter Webb, CFMX, and Vignararajah Seevaratnamn, and acknowledging almost 16,000 other men and women who wrote letters of support on our behalf.

12092 In addition, I wish to recognizes the Commissioners and the staff for their patience and understanding during this application process.

12093 I thank you.

12094 DR. AGARD: Madam Chair and Commissioners. In addition, we are grateful for the generous support and advice we have received from our community broadcast partners, who will create the brokered programming that will round out our program schedule.

12095 All of these partners have committed to producing high-quality programming to the underserved ethnic communities in the GTA.

12096 Each broadcast partner has already completed a signed agreement, and each will be guided by the CRTC's Industry Code for Brokerage.

12097 MR. FOCKLER: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners. We believe that our proposal will make the best use of the 101.3 FM frequency.

12098 CTBC respectfully asks you to note our unequivocal commitment to 13 languages and 25 ethnic groups as a condition of licence. This application sets out a maximum of 50 hours of Tamil language programming and similar maximum levels for all other language groups. We characterize this commitment as our promise of performance.

12099 We believe that what this hearing and what our application is all about is programming, programming, programming.

12100 Our commitment will provide 126 new hours of programming to the GTA without negatively impacting on the viability of existing ethnic radio stations.

12101 It is interesting to note that none of the six ethnic stations expressed concern about CTBC's application during the intervention process. We will be a complementary service to those six services already available.

12102 That is who we are.

12103 MR. SIVASOTHY: The Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation is a new entrant into the commercial radio industry. We are not part of a larger group, we are not associated with any other broadcasting group. In other words, diversity we offer, diversity of ownership, diversity of programming and a diversity of ethnic voices in the GTA.

12104 We are independent and we stand alone.

12105 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I promise to make a difference to the ethnic radio community and to the Canadian broadcasting system. I will not disappoint you. I will make you proud of the confidence you placed in me.

12106 I thank you very much. My name is Kandiah Sivasothy.

12107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sivasothy and your colleagues.

12108 This completes your participation in the proceedings.

12109 MR. SIVASOTHY: Thank you.

12110 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

12111 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12112 We will now ask the Canadian Multicultural Radio to respond at this time.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

12113 MR. ANTONY: Good morning, Commissioners.

12114 My name is Stan Antony. With me today are Mohan, Kumaran, Pannu, Siva and Jessop.

12115 MR. KUMARAN: Good day, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

12116 The intervenors demonstrated why CMR should be granted a new FM licence on 101.3 FM.

12117 Ownership. The intervenors spoke positively about the credibility and track record of our shareholders. We are the only applicant with ownership and production experience from two segments of the South Asian community, both Indian and Tamil.

12118 CMR is a new voice in the Canadian broadcasting system harnessing our combined years of experience to the South Asian community on SCMO, digital television, and as independent radio producers.

12119 Our credibility and experience are reinforced by an equity cash investment of $1.6 million directly from the South Asian community, the largest of any applicant.

12120 Broad service requirement. Our detailed research and analysis led us to commit to serve 22 languages and 16 groups, more than any other applicant but CHIN.

12121 The 1999 Ethnic Policy states:

"The Commission considers, however, that a balance may be struck between the two priorities: serving as many groups as practical and providing high quality programming to those groups that are served".

12122 We believe our application provides this balance best.

12123 We provide in-depth service to the South Asian community with 50 per cent of our schedule. We will also provide regular daily service to six other distinct groups. As Ms Carpio noted, we will deliver more programming to serve the 200,000 Filipinos in Toronto than any other applicant.

12124 This is also true for Vietnamese programming. We also propose more Farsi and more Somali programming than all but one.

12125 Our partnerships and alliances. Intervenors from all of the major groups we propose to serve stressed the credibility and experience of our partners. Here is a small sample:

12126 CRT, Tamilvision, Sur Sagar Radio, SSTV and Rhim Jim Radio have over 40 years of radio and television service to the South Asian community.

12127 Mr. Nguyen from TNVN brings radio experience in Toronto and Montreal and his newspaper, Thoi Bao, is Canada's largest Vietnamese weekly.

12128 Rachid Cige from Radio Golis will provide six new hours of programming using his seven year of radio experience in Canada and Somalia.

12129 Dr. Portugal will bring his ten years of service to the Filipino community to our programming.

12130 Elsworth James of the Caribbean Bachannal Radio, a director of Caribana and a recipient of three Juno nominations will provide our Caribbean programming focused on local music.

12131 Ka Ya Makan Radio with six years of experience on CKLN-FM will provide our Arabic programming.

12132 Our community contacts will bring us additional expertise. For example, the Canadian Institute for Environmental Research and Development, CIERAD, will provide environmental features in a number of South Asian languages.

12133 Dr. Devanesan, named to the Order of Canada for his health work in the South Asian community will host our health program.

12134 VisionTV and our other programming partners bring programming, marketing and promotional synergies. Our CSMOs, digital televisions, radio producers and newspapers bring a wealth of news-gathering inputs.

12135 Canadian Talent Development. All of our CTD proposal meet the definition of eligible expenses and will have a real impact on Canadian artists of ethnic origin. Our partnerships will ensure that the artists have an impact well beyond the dollar amount.

12136 As pointed out by the Coopérative, we have also proposed to expose ethnic audiences in Toronto the French and Aboriginal facts of our city.

12137 CMR and our partners will provide tens of thousands of dollars of promotional support each year. We did not count this as they are not direct third-party expenditures, nor did we count the thousands of dollars spent in video and audio production to tape our concerts and festivals, and edit them into videoclips.

12138 These will be done in-house and have real impact for the artists. Although they are not direct expenditures, we guarantee that these commitments will be implemented.

12139 Community accountability. Many intervenors have pointed out the in-depth consultation we used to build our schedule and choose our producers. We have a comprehensive list of cultural, youth, women's, business and other organizations serving Toronto's ethnic communities.

12140 We have multiple feedback mechanisms through our producers, our community coordinator, management contacts and through our advisory committee. In addition, focus groups and audience surveys will be taken in the various communities from time to time.

12141 Cross-cultural programs. Intervenors reacted enthusiastically to our new approach to cross-cultural programming. Our extensive resources, including CanTYD, our producers, VisionTV and our local contacts with their wealth of information will enable us to provide enriched cross-cultural programs.

12142 We have proposed such programs to meet the particular needs of women and youth. We will also celebrate a wide diversity of ethnic communities in our entertainment program and through our CTD initiatives.

12143 Business plan. Our extensive ethnic broadcasting experience has enabled us to build a strong business plan that will allow us to meet and exceed the commitments we have made. It is not dependent on repatriation of revenues from WTOR, but we expect the quality of our programs will bring back listeners.

12144 Our experience and knowledge of the South Asian market gives us the means to provide quality in-depth programming to all aspects of that community. The over 500 letters from the South Asian business community combined with our advertisers survey shows clearly that the revenues we projected are easily attainable.

12145 Intervenors from the other communities we will serve noted that they have the economic infrastructure to drive new business to radio.

12146 Our expenses are generous and do not take into account the many synergies that our partnerships bring. We can easily meet and exceed our commitments.

12147 Complementary not competitive service. The existing broadcasters raised concerns about competition in languages and scheduling. As CIRV noted in its written intervention, we consulted the to ensure no scheduling conflict. Mr. Cain also noted we were the only applicant that reached out to him to try to ensure no scheduling conflict. We are not afraid of competition but when so many groups have so little service, duplication does not create diversity or adequate service.

12148 Our programming commitments. Legal counsel asked us a question concerning the suitability of a condition of licence. We do not have any trouble in accepting the proposed condition, but we are not sure that it really captures the essence of our application. We have a number of other proposals.

12149 Our application has two main thrusts.

12150 First, we have two main drivers of our programming from the South Asian community, the Tamil-language programming and the many Indo-Pakistani languages that we propose to serve.

12151 These total 62 hours and we commit that at least 45 per cent of our programming will come from languages from South Asia.

12152 Second, we will provide daily service to six other communities. Vietnamese, Filipino, Farsi, Somali, Spanish and Arabic make up 41 hours of our schedule. We further commit that a minimum of 30 per cent of the broadcast week will be devoted to the programs from these six communities.

12153 We would ask for some flexibility by averaging these requirements over the month, affording us the opportunity to react to specific events.

12154 Our extensive demographic, consumer and advertising research tell us that there are great needs and opportunities within these communities.

12155 Finally, we would also be happy to commit to not broadcasting any programming in the Italian, Portuguese or Chinese languages.

12156 We have brought together a strong team of committed owners, experienced management and programmers, partners and strategic allies to implement our vision of quality programming for the most underserved communities in Toronto.

12157 I would like to thank the many people who helped us to develop this vision. We all request the Commission to grant us the licence so that we can bring our dreams to air.

12158 MR. MOHAN: I would like to thank the over 18,000 individuals and groups who wrote to support our application. They come from the communities we will serve, the producers who will provide the programs and all levels of government who serve them.

12159 Over 16,000 individuals from the South Asian communities and most of their professional, cultural, social and other groups supported us.

12160 Over 2,000 individuals and groups from the many other communities that we will serve also supported us.

12161 Elected officials across the GTA -- 21 Members of Parliament, 12 MPPs and 17 Councillors and Mayors also supported CMR.

12162 Madam Chair and Commissioners, we would like to thank the panel and the staff for all the courtesy that you have extended.

12163 Thank you for your attention. We would be pleased to answer your questions.

12164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your participation in this last phase which will be the completion of your participation in the hearing.

12165 Thank you.

12166 MR. ANTONY: Thank you.

12167 THE CHAIRPERSON: And watch out for Isidore.

12168 Mr. Secretary, please.

12169 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12170 The next applicant will be ARK Broadcasting Incorporated.

12171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Weig.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

12172 MR. WEIG: Hello, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.

12173 We have chosen to address negative interventions during this final phase of the hearing.

12174 With respect to issues raised in the intervention letter by Mr. Michael Battista, I would like to point out that we thoroughly sympathize with concerns raised by Mr. Battista, and later by Mr. Chang, on behalf of the Gay and Lesbian community of Greater Toronto.

12175 I also would like to point out that, although ARK has responded to a specific call for applications issued by the Commission, we have no doubts that by following through on our proposal -- whose major goals are to increase diversity and to facilitate the interrelation between peoples of various backgrounds -- we would make an ample contribution towards a better understanding between all communities of Greater Toronto, not just the ethnic ones.

12176 We once again can assure the Commission that ARK would thoroughly maintain the CRTC policy on fair portrayal and representation and under no circumstances would discriminate or negatively portray on the basis of race, gender, religious belief or sexual orientation.

12177 We are well aware of nuances of the community living within ethnic groups we target in our application and can assure the Commission that we would do our best in serving these communities in whatever social or cultural aspect they need to be served.

12178 Regarding concerns raised by the existing broadcasters, namely CJMR, CIRV and Fairchild Radio, our response is as follows.

12179 Mr. Michael Cain, the President of CJMR Radio, in his speech during the third phase of this hearing stated that ARK out of all other applicants would have "the least impact on our station".

12180 Coincidentally, CJMR has the most hours of programming devoted to groups that will also be covered by ARK.

12181 Mr. Cain's words give us an opportunity to provide a few general remarks.

12182 I once again bring to the Commission's attention that ARK, out of all competing applicants, proposes to serve the largest number of underserved and unserved ethnic groups and, granted the licence, would have the least impact on the existing broadcasters.

12183 Our programming schedule was designed to exclude possible overlaps in programming with those stations which already serve some of the groups we target.

12184 We stated before -- and it is worthwhile repeating again -- that we will do our best in avoiding head-to-head competition with the existing ethnic radio stations.

12185 Further, regarding issues raised by CJMR.

12186 CJMR's letter to the Commission states:

"ARK's proposed broadcast schedule shows approximately 40 hours per week of duplicate and conflicting programming in languages heard on CJMR. These are Ukrainian (CJMR airs the longest-running -- 44 years -- daily Ukrainian program in North America), Polish and Croatian."

12187 We wish to respond to CJMR's concerns by offering to reduce our Polish programming hours by 33 per cent, giving further priority to underserved and unserved ethnic groups, and in order to avoid head-to-head competition with CJMR or CHIN Radio, who carry the most of Polish programming in the GTA at the present time.

12188 Furthermore, we come with a unique proposal to cross-promote programs of other ethnic broadcasters. Our goal is to serve 24 groups we now target as best as we can. We believe that one way of doing that is to let our audiences know what programs are available in their native language on other stations.

12189 As to the concerns raised by CJMR with regards to Ukrainian and Croatian programming, I only wish to say that we sincerely appreciate the fact that CJMR hosts the longest-running Ukrainian program in North America. As a new player, ARK can certainly learn from that.

12190 As our research shows, Ukrainians, one of the oldest and largest ethnic communities in Toronto, can easily sustain another 14 hours of programming we would offer with virtually no impact to CJMR or any other existing broadcaster. The response we have in so far from the Ukrainian community is certainly very encouraging.

12191 Regarding Croatian programming, we believe that our choice of time and amount of hours for this group reflects current needs of the Croatian community.

12192 In general, we think that the overall conclusion provided by Mr. Cain, to which I referred at the beginning, is certainly reflective of our proposal and ARK's overall intention to complement rather than to compete.

12193 I now wish to address general concerns raised in letters received from CIRC Radio Inc. and Fairchild Radio.

12194 CIRV raises issues concerning conditions that should be included in the decision licensing a new applicant.

12195 We certainly relate to CIRV's concerns. We feel that with regards to ARK, however, these concerns are not entirely justified. We do not anticipate any significant deviation from our original proposal in the future.

12196 As to the identification of underserved groups to which CIRV's intervention further alludes, ARK's research provides well thought-out criteria as to how we identified these groups, based on the available population figures and the amount of radio service each ethnic group receives.

12197 We also would like to point out that no part of our programming schedule overlaps with CIRV's existing programming.

12198 We also believe that our programming schedule provides an adequate amount of programming for groups we choose to serve. It is carefully balanced between the communities that have established services, groups that are currently underserved or those who do not have service at all.

12199 Fairchild's major concern is to impose a condition of licence restricting or prohibiting the amount of programming in the Mandarin or Cantonese languages or in any other languages directed to Chinese audiences.

12200 I only wish to say that we do not have even remote plans to broadcast in any of the languages mentioned by Fairchild.

12201 Fairchild also urges the Commission to license a new ethnic radio station to provide service to underserved ethnic groups in the Toronto market.

12202 As such, this definition seems to fit rather than contradict with our concept of a new station, for we propose to serve the largest number of underserved and unserved groups.

12203 We also have several questions addressed by Madam Chair during our presentation to which we responded in due time and submitted to the Secretary of the Commission.

12204 I will move on.

12205 A question regarding ARK's proposed advisory board has also been raised during the presentation. We wish to respond to that.

12206 As noted during the question and answer period with the CRTC's legal counsel, ARK plans to expand its advisory board in order to include representatives of at least eight larger ethnic groups to be served at the new station.

12207 This measure is designed to help implementing programming initiatives, ensuring smooth operation and, most importantly, assisting the new undertaking to be as responsive as possible to the needs of local communities.

12208 ARK's intention to include local producers associated with the station to serve on the advisory board, along with directors and officers and its independent members, raised concerns regarding a potential conflict of interest which might ensue from this combination of members.

12209 We find these concerns justified. Therefore, a priority would be given to members from local communities not directly associated with the station to serve on our advisory board.

12210 In conclusion, over these couple of weeks the Commission looked into a number of accomplished proposals, each of which certainly has its own merit and deserves attention on its own right.

12211 More than half of the applicants proposed, in one way or another, to serve the Russian-speaking community, Slavs, or some of the Eastern European nations, and in this respect these proposals certainly reflect the reality of the ethnic scene in Toronto.

12212 The reality is that many of the ethnic groups mentioned above are expanding at a tremendous rate, with the Russian-speaking community -- which, according to Statistics Canada, is expected to increase by a staggering 108 per cent in the year 2006 -- leading the way.

12213 The advantage of ARK's application is that it proposes to serve all Slavic and Eastern European nations under the umbrella of a new station. Only ARK proposes to move beyond existing cherry-picking practice of other ethnic broadcasters when groups of distant ethnic origins are served next to one another within the boundaries of the same programming schedule.

12214 When it comes to similar groups, our programming schedule is designed to increase the choice in ethnic programming by complementing other broadcasters' schedules. We offer more diversity than any other applicant by introducing programming to the largest number of underserved groups.

12215 We also propose to serve the largest number of groups that currently do not have any programming.

12216 We will provide a distinct new voice in the local community and bring a unique perspective on ethnic radio programming in the GTA.

12217 Unlike other applicants, we aim at filling a very special ethnic niche by serving a homogeneous group, consisting of close languages and cultures.

12218 Our concept of a new radio station has abundant possibilities for cross-cultural programming and is designed to build bridges between more than a few ethnic communities of Greater Toronto.

12219 With the type of programming we propose, ARK will achieve synergies among local ethnic populations that otherwise could not have been achieved, especially by smaller ethnic groups we propose to serve. I personally think people of the Greater Toronto Area, especially given the shortage of existing frequencies, should not miss out on this opportunity.

12220 That concludes my presentation. Thank you.

12221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Weig. That completes your participation in the hearing.

12222 MR. WEIG: Thank you very much indeed.

12223 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

12224 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

12225 I would like to point out for the record that there are a number of non-appearing applications on the agenda of this public hearing. Interventions were received on some of those applications, and the Commission will consider those interventions along with the applications, and a decision will be rendered at a later date.

12226 Madam Chair, this completes the agenda of this public hearing.

12227 Thank you, Madam Chair.

12228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

12229 Before adjourning the hearing, I want to thank all the participants for their participation, both the applicants and the intervenors; my colleagues, of course, and our staff, the court reporter and the translation services for their help and support throughout these two weeks.

12230 This hearing is now adjourned.

12231 Avant d'ajourner cette audience, je tiens à remercier tous les participants de leur coopération, incluant les requérantes et les intervenants, ainsi que mes collègues, notre personnel, la sténographe et le service de traduction pour leur appui pendant ces deux semaines.

12232 Cette audience est maintenant ajournée.

12233 Have a safe trip home.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1158 /

L'audience se termine à 1158

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