ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Toronto, Ontario - 2002-09-26

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2002-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 26, 2002 le 26 septembre 2002

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

David Colville Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager / Gérant

de l'audience

Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire

Alastair Stewart Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 26, 2002 le 26 septembre 2002

PAGE / PARA NO.

PHASE III

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR

Dr. Khadigia Mohamed Ali 1723 / 10368

Donna Makeda 1729 / 10276

L'ARC du Canada 1736 / 10384

MICRO 1742 / 10410

Mouvement des intervenants en communication

radio de l'Ontario 1748 / 10445

Toronto Police Service 1760 / 10505

Fernando Valladares 1769 / 10549

Canadian Association of Physicians of

Indian Origin 1774 / 10582

Yee Hong Community Wellness Foundation 1779 / 10612

Hospital for Sick Children Foundation 1786 / 10648

Friends of Canada 1790 / 10680

COSTI Immigrant Services 1797 / 10720

South Asian Student Association 1804 / 10754

Villa Charities 1819 / 10838

Greek Community of Metropolitan Toronto 1826 / 10876

Mike Colle and Joe Pantalone 1832 / 10914

Canadian Music Week 1841 / 10956

Bharathi Kala Manram, Canada 1845 / 10982

Roksolana Tchotchieva 1853 / 11027

Umberto Manca 1857 / 11056

Outreach International 1864 / 11095

Punjab Star Incorporated 1870 / 11130

R.B. Communications Limited 1874 / 11165

Dr. Howard McCurdy 1895 / 11291

Consulate of the Slovak Republic 1905 / 11342

The Anglican Diocese of Toronto 1916 / 11389

CHRY Community Radio Incorporated 1921 / 11415

National Campus and Community Radio Association 1936 / 11508

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon resuming on Thursday, September 26, 2002

at 0835 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

26 septembre 2002 à 0835

10363 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour à tout le monde. Good morning.

10364 Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10365 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10366 The first appearing intervenor will be Dr. Khadigia Mohamed Ali. I understand that since he is not here someone will read the statement into the record.

10367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

INTERVENTION

10368 MR. PLUNKETT: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I think I have been appointed to perform this little task. So I will just read it verbatim.

"My name is Dr. Khadigia Mohamed Ali, a Somali physician currently working with the Ministry of Social and Community Services in the Disability Support Program. On behalf of the Somali Scholarship Youth Fund, I am here to support the Caribbean-African Radio network application for a licence to own and operate a radio station in the GTA.

The Importance of Community Radio:

For a decade our Somali community did not have a community radio, thus it has struggled to a different brand of public radio. Today we need a community radio driven largely by locally originated programming which will certainly profit and will be greatly appreciated by its listeners.

Coming from a predominantly oral society, a community radio, more than the print media, is viewed by many from my community as a vital resource of information, education and growth, if not the sole carriers of critical community information.

Community radio is particularly critical for a lot of elderly people and housewives who today are pretty much isolated in this era identified as the information age.

Who Are Our Potential Community Radio Audience?

Community radio listeners will be the younger, the less educated, the less affluent and of course the more disadvantaged people, such as senior citizens.

This Community Radio will certainly:

(1) provide positive role modelling, as well as educational, cultural, musical, sporting and skills development opportunities for the youth.

(2) sustain the growth of Somali culture; it will also encourage multiculturalism and will promote and contribute informed dialogue and reflective action among different communities.

(3) achieve the objectives of creating a more informed, active and global citizenry; therefore, the radio station will provide to the community, among other things:

- a relevant news bulletin comprising local items collected by volunteer stringers;

- to enhance awareness and facilitate the communities' integration into the larger society, the station will also bring into the community's home all relevant national events and information;

- some international news items, particularly those important news items from back home, so that they can keep abreast with the situation and not lose contact.

(4) offer more access to those newcomers, who because of language restraint would not be able to get on the airwaves otherwise.

Having worked with the community newspaper for so long, and constantly written matters addressing health issues, such as mental health, HIV-Aids, parenting, women and family breakdown and youth issues (violent conflict, drugs, et cetera), I realized that there is still a great deal of work to be done. Since most of our people come from a predominantly oral society, a community radio station will certainly improve the dissemination of information and the community outreach.

The uniqueness of this kind of community radio, which will certainly bring together many diverse communities, such as the Caribbean and other African communities, will certainly constitute a special medium where effective dialogue on common issues could be addressed. This collaborative effort will certainly enhance the bond between these communities and will ultimately benefit the larger community living in Toronto.

For these numerous reasons and on behalf of the Somali community, I urge the CRTC to award CARN the broadcasting licence it has applied for.

Thank you for listening and for giving me this opportunity."

10369 We appreciate being able to substitute.

10370 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What is your name, sir?

10371 MR. PLUNKETT: My name is Wayne Plunkett.

10372 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10373 Mr. Secretary, please.

10374 MR. LEBEL: Don't go too far, sir. I understand that you will also read into the record the intervention from Donna Makeda.

10375 MR. PLUNKETT: Yes. Phase 2 of my other hat.

INTERVENTION

10376 MR. PLUNKETT: This is a positive intervention from Uprising International Music.

"Greetings to all.

First of all I must apologize for not being able to attend this function. This is due to some urgent family reasons that I have to take care of. I am therefore asking the Commission to allow someone from CARN to read my letter on my behalf.

I am Donna Makeda, originally from Guyana, South America and presently a Canadian Citizen. I am a professional recording reggae artist and have been releasing records, CDs and music videos since 1992 and have been writing music and performing since 1980. I have received numerous awards at the Canadian Reggae Music Awards and have performed in countries like Jamaica, Barbados, Guyana, Central America and quite extensively in Canada. I have CDs on sale in places like Germany and Italy and am still not able to get enough airplay in Canada.

My plea is: `What is going on? Can someone please tell me?'

I fully support the efforts of CARN to try and secure a broadcasting licence to serve the GTA because I think that it is time that Canadian Caribbean content is played on the airwaves. For too long we have been kept down and I can tell you with much conviction that Canadian Caribbean and African music, whether it be reggae, hip-hop, soca, Rn'b or whatever genre, is certainly amongst the best.

CARN is committed to promoting and developing the music of the `visible minorities', women, et cetera, and therefore a lot of female reggae artists who have released records and are not being heard will get a chance to be heard.

Being a female culture (conscious) reggae artist is not easy. I know I can speak on behalf of some of the other Canadian Caribbean recording artists when I say that we are working very hard and are spending our own money and time preparing, recording and manufacturing our own records and CDs, not to mention promoting ourselves, travelling to and from different places to market our music, sending out packages to all radio stations and radio personalities (that does cost considerable money) and even making calls on a regular basis to request that the music be played. We barely get played on the Canadian radio stations because they are all playing music from other parts of the world and not giving enough airplay to Canadian Caribbean and African music.

There is one very important thing that I have learnt about the industry, because I have been taught by some of the best (in the major labels), there is a formula that you have to follow: first they have to HEAR IT, then they will LIKE IT, then they will BUY IT. That is the formula to musical success. Because we are not being heard, but no one knows about us, they do not get to hear some of the best music in the world and then they do not go out to buy it, so we are all starving musicians. Obviously not good at all!

Another reason for supporting CARN one hundred per cent is that it would certainly be a beautiful thing to have Caribbean and African music being played all day long, in a place where so many different cultures from the African and Caribbean communities are being celebrated and everyone enjoys freedom and equality. Thus we need to be able to switch on the radio any time of the day and catch some form of music that suits our culture. It would only be fair for CARN to be granted that broadcasting licence for this purpose.

This will also work in the professional recording artists' favour (Canadian Caribbean and African Artists) because as long as the music is being played all day long, like on steady rotation, it will become familiar to the people in radio land and then they will go out and buy the records, therefore enabling us to be more financially stable and to be able to invest in more music to give to the people, and also to be able to live a `decent life'.

The fact that CARN will also create new jobs for Canadian Caribbean and African people who have those kinds of skills (and there are quite a few of them) is also a very good reason for CARN to start operations.

As a Canadian Caribbean person, I am also very interested in what is going on with my people in and around the community. CARN will give me all the news and the events and dialogue on issues affecting our community, which is very important to me.

Thus I fully support and endorse CARN for putting Canadian Caribbean and African content first. I do hope that CARN is successful in securing that broadcasting licence that they are applying for, as I am pretty sure that all of us professional Canadian Caribbean and African recording artists will certainly benefit from it.

Thank you and One Love."

10377 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Plunkett, for pitching in.

10378 MR. PLUNKETT: I appreciate it.

10379 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10380 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10381 Dr. McCurdy cannot be here this morning, so we will probably hear from him later on.

10382 Alors nous entendrons la prochaine présentation qui sera faite par l'ARC du Canada et MICRO.

10383 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, messieurs. Allez-y quand vous êtes prêts.

INTERVENTION

10384 M. PAQUIN: Bonjour. Juste pour préciser que la deuxième intervention qu'on va présenter en rapport avec la demande de M. Gordon, on l'a fait au nom de MICRO mais MICRO va nous succéder à l'ordre du jour. Donc ils feront leur propre présentation.

10385 On vous a remis des documents. On va faire la version abrégée, si vous n'y voyez pas d'inconvénients, parce que vous avez un ordre du jour fort chargé.

10386 L'ARC du Canada représente 31 membres, 18 radios en ondes regroupées sous le Réseau francophone d'Amérique. Je crois que vous connaissez assez bien notre mouvement.

10387 L'assimilation a fait de sérieux ravages à Toronto et il est grand temps que la communauté francophone puisse obtenir certains outils essentiels tels une radio communautaire pour contrer ce fléau. Selon les statistiques, ce sont les jeunes qui sont les plus touchés par l'assimilation à la langue anglaise, et de plus ce sont eux qui ont l'avenir de la langue française entre leurs mains.

10388 Si on ne donne pas à ces mêmes jeunes une voix francophone grâce à laquelle ils pourraient s'identifier et s'exprimer, ils viendront grossir le nombre de personnes ayant perdu l'usage de la langue française en Ontario.

10389 Afin de confirmer le rôle primordial d'une radio communautaire en milieu minoritaire, permettez-nous de citer le député fédéral de la région de Beauséjour-Petitcodiac au Nouveau-Brunswick, M. Dominic Leblanc, dans un rapport qu'il déposait en août dernier à l'honorable Sheila Copps :

« Les médias sont responsables de 45 pour cent du phénomène d'assimilation. Les radios communautaires ont aidé à contrer cet effet en donnant une voix et une identité à la francophonie acadienne. Dans le sud-est du Nouveau-Brunswick, avec CJSE, on a assisté à un véritable miracle puisqu'auparavant l'auditoire de cette région de l'Acadie était presqu'exclusivement dévoué à la radio anglophone. Les gens se sont emparés de cette radio pour en faire une voix dans laquelle ils se sont reconnus. De nos jours, cette radio est écoutée partout dans le sud-est du Nouveau-Brunswick et elle est constamment citée comme un exemple de ce que les gens peuvent faire quand on leur donne les moyens de développer leurs capacités communautaires ».

10390 C'est un extrait du rapport déposé à l'honorable Sheila Copps, ministre du Patrimoine canadien, en août 2002.

10391 Dans son communiqué du 14 septembre 2000 intitulé « Le gouvernement du Canada demande au CRTC de faire rapport sur la diversité culturelle du marché radiophonique de Toronto », l'honorable Sheila Copps, ministre du Patrimoine canadien, mentionnait que :

« La population de Toronto est riche d'une grande diversité culturelle. Nous devons nous assurer que les services radiophoniques qui sont fournis aux citoyens et citoyennes reflètent cette diversité ».

10392 Donc il faut dire que la communauté francophone, qui est composée de tout près 70 000 personnes et 200 000 francophiles fait partie intégrante de cette communauté-là.

10393 M. BOULAY: Selon une étude des services de radiodiffusion à caractère ethnique effectuée par le CRTC en 1998, les communautés chinoises, italiennes et portugaises ont accès hebdomadairement à environ trois fois plus d'émissions radiophoniques dans leur langue que les francophones et elles ont également accès au même nombre d'heures d'émissions télévisuelles, et ce malgré le fait que le contenu est dans une langue autre que l'une des deux langues officielles du pays.

10394 Dans son propre document intitulé « De la vision à l'action », le CRTC parle de la présence d'une programmation qui reflète la société canadienne et aussi de façonner l'identité canadienne. Ne serait-il pas opportun pour le CRTC de profiter d'une occasion idéale comme celle qui s'offre à lui présentement et de passer de la vision à l'action dans une dossier comme celui-ci?

10395 En effet, la programmation offerte par la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto répondra à toutes les préoccupations soulevées par le CRTC dans ledit document et rencontrera les objectifs précités de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion.

10396 M. PAQUIN: La situation linguistique de la communauté francophone est critique et une radio communautaire pourrait s'avérer comme étant l'un des meilleurs moyens pour tenter d'amoindrir la lancée effarante de l'assimilation dans cette métropole ontarienne.

10397 Une radio communautaire à Toronto se veut beaucoup plus qu'un simple service radiophonique. C'est une nécessité de premier ordre et une question de survie culturelle et linguistique.

10398 Mis à part la Société Radio-Canada, dont la programmation locale est restreinte -- et je crois qu'ici on parle de tout près de 40 heures par semaine -- quel autre radiodiffuseur torontois contribue à la reconnaissance et à la découverte des artistes franco-ontariens, acadiens, québécois et autres artistes issus de milieux francophones minoritaires?

10399 Dans sa demande de licence, la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto indique clairement qu'elle s'engage à diffuser un minimum de 70 pour cent de pièces de musique vocale de langue française au sein de la catégorie de teneur 2.

10400 Cet engagement dépasse le seuil minimum de 65 pour cent qui est requis par le Conseil pour une station francophone. L'éventuelle radio communautaire de Toronto se distinguera de toutes les autres stations privées et d'État et elle contribuera grandement à l'épanouissement de la culture française dans la plus grande ville du pays.

10401 M. BOULAY: Ceci est la troisième présence de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto devant le Conseil en tant que requérante. Ses deux premières tentatives ayant échoué, nous espérons sincèrement que cette fois-ci sera la bonne.

10402 Il ne faudrait pas oublier de mentionner que, dans une certaine mesure, la viabilité future de RFA, Le Réseau francophone d'Amérique, dépend en partie de cette décision.

10403 En effet, si RFA pouvait enfin avoir accès au marché de la Région du Grand Toronto, ses revenus publicitaires croîtraient en conséquence et lui permettraient de consolider ses opérations ainsi que celles de ses 18 radios membres.

10404 Pour toutes les raisons ci-haut mentionnées, mais principalement au nom de la survie de la communauté francophone de Toronto, l'Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada recommande au CRTC d'accorder le permis de radiodiffusion à la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto Inc.

10405 Dans l'anticipation de votre accueil favorable à cette demande, nous vous remercions, au nom de la francophonie canadienne, de donner enfin une voix à une minorité qui risque de devenir de plus en plus silencieuse et de moins en moins visible.

10406 Merci.

10407 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors si je comprends bien, voilà votre intervention en appui à la demande et maintenant nous allons vous entendre en opposition à une autre demande.

10408 M. PAQUIN: C'est exact.

10409 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Allez-y.

INTERVENTION

10410 M. PAQUIN: Donc c'est une opposition à la demande 2002-02474 déposée par M. Fitzroy Gordon.

10411 Encore une fois on va faire le texte abrégé.

10412 Nous croyons qu'une dérogation à cette condition de licence causerait un préjudice aux autres radiodiffuseurs de la Région du Grand Toronto, et ce malgré le précédent qui fut établi par le biais de la décision CRTC 2001-678 en novembre 2001.

10413 On parle ici de la dérogation au niveau du pourcentage du contenu ethnique, bien sûr.

10414 Un précédent établi par le Conseil ne doit pas être interprété par la requérante comme étant un droit acquis. Comme le dit si bien le vieux dicton « L'exception ne fait pas la règle ». Nous avons confiance que le Conseil se rappellera du contexte dans lequel fut octroyée cette exemption et la justification qu'il avait invoquée pour l'appliquer.

10415 En effet, lorsque le Conseil a approuvé une exemption à cette condition de licence pour CPAM-radio Union.com.inc., une station AM de Montréal à caractère ethnique de langue française, c'est parce que ladite requérante avait fait valoir que la venue d'un nouveau service à caractère ethnique de langue française permettrait l'intégration harmonieuse des communautés ethnoculturelles visées à la francophonie qui s'en trouverait par le fait même enrichie.

0850

10416 M. BOULAY: Ce qui nous surprend dans la demande d'exemption de la requérante, qui en réponse à notre opposition nous a répondu que, et nous citons notre propre traduction libre de cette réponse :

« Les communautés d'expression anglaise de Toronto issues des Caraïbes et d'Afrique ne méritent pas moins que les communautés ethniques d'expression française de Montréal et on ne devrait pas entraver leurs démarches dans ce sens ».

10417 Cette réponse fait clairement allusion au fait que ces communautés culturelles sont d'expression anglaise et qu'en conséquence elles sont déjà desservies dans cette langue par toutes les stations du Grand Toronto sauf une, le service français de Radio-Canada. Toutes sauf une!

10418 De plus, la requérante désire dédier sa programmation à 22 groupes ethniques distincts, et ce en 14 langues différentes. Or, le pourcentage du contenu verbal hebdomadaire proposé dans une langue tierce est d'environ 21 pour cent.

10419 Cela implique donc que durant une semaine normale de radiodiffusion, les créneaux destinés à chacun de ces 14 groupes linguistiques sera d'une durée moyenne de moins de deux heures. Comment peut-on espérer desservir adéquatement les 22 groupes ethniques visés par le projet alors que si peu d'émissions leur seront offertes dans leur langue maternelle respective?

10420 M. PAQUIN: L'extrême rareté de fréquences disponibles dans la Région du Grand Toronto devrait pousser le Conseil à remettre en question cette demande puisque son caractère multiethnique sera dissout jusqu'à une proportion de 79,3 pour cent par un contenu verbal de langue anglaise.

10421 Nous sommes également d'avis que M. Fitzroy Gordon fera une sous-utilisation de la fréquence FM 105,1 en diffusant avec une puissance apparent rayonnée de 78 watts.

10422 Finalement, une autre raison de notre opposition à cette exemption au Règlement de 1986 sur la radio est le fait que la requérante espère diffuser principalement sur les ondes FM alors que la décision CRTC 2001-678 du 7 novembre 2001 se rapportait à une diffusion sur bande AM. En effet, nous retirerions notre opposition si la requérante ne voulait diffuser que sur AM seulement.

10423 Dans l'anticipation que vous saurez prendre en considération ces brefs commentaires d'opposition à cet effet.

10424 Nous vous remercions à l'avance de nous offrir l'opportunité de comparaître lors de cette audience.

10425 Je terminerai en disant que je crois que toutes les demandes ici présentes qui sont présentées sont extrêmement louables, ont toutes des dossiers très bien préparés.

10426 Il est évident que le Conseil ne pourra satisfaire toutes ces demandes. C'est un choix qui va être très difficile pour les membres du Conseil, on en convient. Toutes ces demandes-là sont très louables, mais nous sommes persuadés depuis 1989 qu'on se présente devant vous ici, la communauté francophone, les gens de notre association, pour développer une radio communautaire francophone à Toronto.

10427 Selon nous il est temps et c'est, comme on dit, notre dernière chance de pouvoir concrétiser cette radio communautaire qui, comme vous le savez, va diffuser dans une des deux langues officielles du pays.

10428 Donc je vous remercie et on est disponibles si vous avez des questions.

10429 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Je comprends bien que vous soyez en opposition parce que vous êtes vraiment mutuellement exclusifs sur votre deuxième choix de licence, mais je comprends mal votre opposition qu'il n'y a aucune comparaison à faire avec CPAM.

10430 Vous savez que, oui, il faut une exemption parce qu'il n'y aurait pas 50 pour cent de la programmation ethnique en langue tierce, mais on peut utiliser le français et l'anglais pour faire de la programmation ethnique. Ce 79,3 pour cent s'il est bien encadré c'est de la programmation ethnique, elle n'est pas de tierce langue. Vous comprenez la différence?

10431 M. PAQUIN: Oui, on comprend la différence, cependant ça serait un avantage par rapport à d'autres requérantes qui elles demandent de se conformer à la politique.

10432 LA PRÉSIDENTE: D'accord. En autant que vous compreniez qu'il peut y avoir des groupes ethniques à desservir dont la langue est une formation quelconque, un registre quelconque d'anglais ou l'anglais tout court.

10433 Ça va. Je voulais vraiment m'assurer que vous compreniez qu'il y a quand même un parallèle à faire avec la francophonie d'ailleurs au Québec, et l'anglophonie d'ailleurs au Canada anglais.

10434 Je vous remercie, messieurs.

10435 M. PAQUIN: Merci.

10436 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous vous reverrons peut-être à la Phase IV.

10437 M. PAQUIN: Sûrement.

10438 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Au revoir.

10439 Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10440 M. LEBEL: Merci, madame la présidente.

10441 Nous entendrons maintenant l'intervention déposée par le Mouvement des intervenants en communication radio de l'Ontario.

10442 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, monsieur.

10443 M. COTÉ: Bonjour.

10444 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Allez-y lorsque vous êtes prêt.

INTERVENTION

10445 M. COTÉ: Madame la vice-présidente, mesdames, messieurs les commissaires.

« L'octroi d'une licence à une autre demanderesse serait sérieux et irréparable en ce qu'il contribuerait à maintenir le taux d'assimilation dans la région... ».

10446 C'est ce qu'affirme M. Pierre Foucher, constitutionnaliste, dans un document sur la « Radio communautaire francophone à Toronto et droit constitutionnel », publié en mai 2002.

10447 MICRO est le Mouvement des intervenants et intervenantes en communication radio de l'Ontario qui compte présentement sept membres. Il y a quatre radios en ondes soit CINN à Hearst, CKGN à Kapuskasing, CFRH à Penetanguishene et CHOD à Cornwall-Alexandria.

10448 Plusieurs autres communautés en Ontario désirent se doter d'un service de qualité comme l'ont fait ces quatre communautés où nos radios de la communauté sont déjà en ondes.

10449 Trois autres radios sont au niveau de l'implantation dont la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto, ainsi qu'à North Bay, la Coopérative radio de Nipissing, et à Prescott-Russell, Radio communautaire de Prescott-Russell.

10450 L'Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario de laquelle MICRO est membre associé demande de transmettre à la Commission son appui à la demande de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

10451 L'ACFO a pour but de promouvoir le développement et l'épanouissement des 550 000 francophones de l'Ontario. Elle intervient de manière soutenue et constante à tous les paliers du développement communautaire.

10452 Un des trois grands axes d'intervention de l'ACFO provinciale se résume ainsi :

« La promotion et la valorisation de la communauté franco-ontarienne afin de célébrer la richesse et la valeur ajoutée qu'elle représente pour la société ontarienne, pour l'ensemble du pays et pour le marché international ».

10453 Suite aux succès marquants des radios existantes et des requêtes des nombreuses communautés entourant ces radios, les sept membres de MICRO en assemblée générale dès 1999 ont dressé et établi les stratégies de mise en oeuvre d'un plan de développement des radios de la communauté en Ontario.

10454 Le plan de développement prévoit dix radios de la communauté autonomes francophones en Ontario d'ici quelques années. Les sondages effectués en mai 2001 par Léger Marketing accordent à ces quatre radios de MICRO une cote d'écoute supérieure à toutes autres.

10455 Ces radios dont la programmation de qualité reflète les goûts des communautés respectives sont complémentaires aux services de la radio d'État qui, d'après nos sondages, est écoutée par à peine 10 pour cent de la population.

10456 Les radios de la communauté ont une raison d'être : offrir un choix francophone. L'auditoire qui n'écoute pas la radio de Radio-Canada syntonise simplement les chaînes anglophones si elles n'ont pas ce choix, et selon les recherches la population s'assimile à ce qu'elle entend. Plusieurs recherchistes et experts font état de cette assimilation et la qualifient de « situation contagieuse et englobante » à laquelle le pays doit prendre les mesures nécessaires pour réagir.

10457 L'ACFO provinciale affirme aussi « La radio communautaire : un frein à l'assimilation ». elle poursuit en disant :

« Les enfants qui vivent en français au foyer se sentent dépaysés parce que la langue naturelle d'une grande proportion des jeunes torontois est l'anglais et cette situation dérange l'habitat naturel qui leur permettrait de vivre en français ».

10458 Certains parents francophones avouent devoir redoubler d'effort à la maison. Il n'y aucun doute que la famille joue un rôle déterminant dans l'acquisition d'une culture, avant et après la rentrée scolaire.

10459 La culture c'est un ensemble de connaissances, de comportements, d'attitudes, et de façons de vivre. Les radios de la communauté sont des véhicules privilégiés pour transmettre la culture et les produits artistiques francophones.

10460 Ces radios sont le fruit d'une saine gestion par les comités de bénévoles de chaque communauté. La majorité des radios de la communauté jouissent du dévouement de nombreux professionnels de tous les métiers et spécialement en administration des affaires.

10461 Les radios de la communauté sont des sources de création et de maintien d'emplois et participent au développement économique des régions où elles s'établissent.

10462 Nos communautés se chargent de mettre en oeuvre des moyens pour contrer l'assimilation en donnant aux communautés un outil essentiel de communication de qualité mais faut-il encore que ce gouvernement et ses institutions leur facilitent la tâche.

10463 Voici les arguments additionnels en faveur de la demande de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

10464 L'article 3 de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion stipule que :

« c) Les radiodiffuseurs de langues française et anglaise ... diffèrent quant à leurs conditions d'exploitation et, éventuellement, quant à leurs besoins;

Par sa programmation ... répondre aux besoins et aux intérêts, et refléter la condition et les aspirations des hommes, des femmes et des enfants canadiens, notamment ... la dualité linguistique ».

10465 L'article 5 de la même loi :

« La réglementation et la surveillance du système devraient être souples et à la fois tenir compte des préoccupations et des besoins régionaux ».

10466 Selon Pierre Foucher, constitutionnaliste :

« La communauté francophone de Toronto n'est pas l'une des composantes ethniques de la ville. Elle est l'une des composantes de la dualité canadienne ... et la composition multiethnique de la population continuera de s'accroître ».

10467 M. Foucher ajoute :

« Dans le contexte de la Région du Grand Toronto, le maintien du critère de concurrence et l'omission du critère de dualité linguistique créent une inégalité. Plusieurs communautés ethniques ont déjà accès par divers moyens, dont les radios communautaires, a une programmation radiophonique facilement accessible dans leur langue et qui reflète les préoccupations de leur communauté. La communauté francophone de la Région du Grand Toronto n'a accès qu'à Radio-Canada ou, pour les gens branchés sur Internet, aux stations de radio privées qui diffusent via ce média ».

10468 Par définition la radio communautaire est l'image de sa communauté, un organisme sans intérêt pécunier et sans parti pris, sinon les intérêts et le développement de tous les organismes de sa communauté.

10469 Comparativement à la radio d'État et les radios privées, la radio communautaire est grandement défavorisée malgré ses grands succès à travers le pays. Cependant, les sondages d'écoute démontrent que ses succès sont inversement proportionnels à la grosseur de l'entreprise puisque les communautés desservies accordent généreusement leur faveur d'écoute à la radio de leur communauté qui répond à leurs besoins spécifiques.

10470 Selon l'ACFO provinciale :

« La radio communautaire est un point d'ancrage. Les francophones de Toronto résident aux quatre coins de la ville. Il n'existe pas un quartier officiel désigné comme celui des Torontois d'expression française. Par conséquent, une radio communautaire est un moyen de créer un point de rencontre pour la communauté. A la différence des autres événements culturels ponctuels, une station de radio est une présence continuelle capable d'ancrer la communauté à sa ville : Toronto ».

10471 L'ACFO provinciale est d'avis qu'un instrument comme une station radiophonique serait un catalyseur d'énergie pour propager les diverses cultures francophones à Toronto.

10472 Si on parle d'équité, la francophonie de Toronto ne reçoit certes pas, et depuis trop longtemps, le traitement auquel elle serait en droit de s'attendre lorsqu'il s'agit d'ondes-radio entre autres.

10473 Cette initiative permettra aux communautés francophones de Toronto d'écouter enfin une radio traitant des sujets chers à leurs communautés. Cette radio jouera plus de musique francophone, qui n'est disponible dans aucune autre radio.

10474 La mise en ondes d'une radio communautaire à Toronto en fera :

« ... une importante institution, vitale pour la minorité francophone composée de nombreuses ethnies ... sur les plans linguistiques et culturels ».

10475 Ce n'est pas de mauvaise foi que MICRO s'oppose à la demande de CHIN et Humber College. Nous sommes simplement persuadés que les communautés de Toronto sont royalement servies en anglais et qu'une radio francophone servirait beaucoup mieux l'intérêt public canadien qu'une autre radio anglophone ou multiculturelle.

10476 En conclusion, une radio de la communauté de langue française est nécessaire à Toronto pour que nos communautés francophones aient un choix. C'est pourquoi MICRO, appuyé par l'Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario, vous presse d'accorder une licence à la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto dans les plus brefs délais.

10477 La répercussion, qu'elle soit positive ou négative, se fera sentir non seulement à Toronto mais également auprès des autres radios de la communauté en province en matière d'autofinancement et auprès des communautés francophones de l'Ontario.

10478 Madame la vice-présidente, mesdames, messieurs les commissaires, permettez-moi de vous témoigner à l'avance la gratitude de toutes les communautés francophones de l'Ontario, et spécialement de la région de Toronto, pour l'ouverture que vous démontrerez envers la demande de licence de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto lors de l'attribution des rares fréquences disponibles. C'est maintenant à son tour d'adresser la parole à sa communauté par le voie des ondes.

10479 Merci.

0905

10480 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

10481 C'est monsieur Aubin ou monsieur Coté?

10482 M. COTÉ: Monsieur Coté.

10483 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur Coté.

10484 M. COTÉ: Oui.

10485 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci.

10486 M. COTÉ: Merci.

10487 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur Coté.

10488 La conseillère Noël a une question.

10489 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Juste une petite question, monsieur Coté.

10490 Vous vous opposez aux demandes de CHIN et de Humber College qui sont sur une fréquence qui est mutuellement exclusive avec la fréquence qui est demandée par la Radio communautaire de Toronto.

10491 Est-ce que vous avez les mêmes restrictions vis-à-vis la deuxième fréquence? La RFA s'est opposée à la demande de Fitzroy Gordon sur 105,1, je crois.

10492 M. COTÉ: Oui.

10493 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Est-ce que vous avez les mêmes inquiétudes?

10494 M. COTÉ: Oui. Comme l'a mentionné mon collègue, il le fait au nom de l'ARC du Canada, de RFA et aussi de MICRO l'opposition.

10495 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Et est-ce que cette inquiétude-là découle du fait que la fréquence demandée par la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto est peut-être une fréquence où on aura des problèmes techniques? C'est votre deuxième choix et vous êtes protégés en même temps. C'est ça?

10496 M. COTÉ: C'est évident.

10497 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Je vous remercie.

10498 M. COTÉ: Merci.

10499 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, monsieur.

10500 Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

10501 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10502 Intervenors Nos. 48 and 49 are not here yet so we will put them at the end of the agenda.

10503 Nos. 50, 53 and 61 will not be appearing. So they will remain on the record as non-appearing items or interventions.

10504 We will now hear No. 60, the Toronto Police Service.

INTERVENTION

10505 MR. FORDE: Thank you and good morning.

10506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

10507 MR. FORDE: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

10508 I want to thank you, first of all, for fitting me into your schedule this morning.

10509 My name is Keith Forde and I am Superintendent of the Toronto Police Service. I am in charge of the Community Policing Support Unit. My responsibility, among other things, is ensure the continued coordination and delivery of specialized programs and initiatives throughout Toronto. This unit that I am in charge of also serves as a liaison between the police and the ethnic communities in Toronto.

10510 The use of the ethnic media is important to the Toronto police. It is a means of direct access to people.

10511 CHIN Radio opened its door in the 1960s to the Toronto Police Service. The Toronto Police Service has continued to have the opportunity to communicate vital information directly to the ethnic communities that CHIN has served ever since.

10512 Many years ago, when there were many new immigrants in Toronto and very few ethnic police officers, when there was little in the way of ethnic outreach programs in the Toronto Police Service, CHIN Radio was a unique and vital link between the police and these ethnic communities.

10513 CHIN Radio, throughout its history, has included Toronto police as part of its programming, having police officers on various language programs on an occasional and regularly scheduled basis explaining the laws of this country and this province in languages that CHIN serves.

10514 It has given the Toronto Police Service an opportunity to explain the differences between the laws here and the homeland of immigrants. For example, in many countries, in the past and even now, the laws regarding such things as verbal threats, family violence, spousal abuse, child abuse, traffic safety are very different.

10515 CHIN has been integral to communities such as Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, South Asian, West Indian, Greek, just to name some of them. Many immigrants may carry an inherent fear of police or distrust of the police from their homelands. Many ethnic people living in and around Toronto are refugees, many of whom have been victimized in some way by those in authority, including police in their homeland. Many of whom fear police and associate police with the fear of being expelled from Canada. CHIN is always eager to assist the community to better understand the role of police in Canada.

10516 This is crucial information for newcomers so that they can more easily and effectively understand our laws and feel comfortable and safe living in their new society, better understanding the laws that protect them.

10517 CHIN is creative in its efforts to assist people to better understand law enforcement. To translate Canada for its listeners on a monthly Italian talk show for example, which is dedicated to law enforcement, topics include fraud, traffic, elder abuse, family violence, home security, safety and sexual assault. I must add that 99 per cent of those I just read fall directly under my command. Italian-speaking Toronto police officers are featured guests on this program and bring with them other experts in the field from within the police force.

10518 An example CHIN's creativity is an on-air contest during one of these talk shows. The show featured a sergeant from the Toronto Police Central Traffic Unit. The topic was road safety. The law was discussed, information was shared and prizes were given to callers who correctly answered questions on traffic safety, for example, school bus safety.

10519 CrimeStoppers also fall under me. It is a civilian-run program in association with the Toronto Police Service. It is supported on CHIN Radio in languages such as Hindi, Caribbean, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian. CHIN has been supporting CrimeStoppers since its inception in Toronto in the early 1980s.

10520 Members of CHIN's management served many years on the Board of Directors of Toronto CrimeStoppers. CHIN contributes by translating and broadcasting the "Crime of the Week" program and special messages explaining the CrimeStoppers program itself. It is a highly successful program that results in arrests, recovery of stolen property and crime prevention. It is a program that warrants being promoted in many languages so that people can better understand the opportunity for anonymous crime reporting and reward and, perhaps above all, it contributes to the sense of empowerment for members of the public.

10521 "Proaction" is another program. It is a Toronto charitable organization that provides funding for programs developed by Toronto police officers that involve high-risk youth. The founder of CHIN Radio, Johnny Lombardi, was a founding director of this organization. Even today, a member of the CHIN executive serves on the President's Advisory Committee of "Proaction". It funds programs such as basketball leagues, mentoring conferences and the performing arts in which police officers volunteer their time with young people in their communities. It is a successful organization and the programs grow in popularity with the kids each year.

10522 CHIN provides "Proaction" with the kind of coverage and support that helps to make this outreach program viable and successful. CHIN provides on-air interviews for participants of such youth and police partnerships on programs such as Jai Maharaj's "Caribbean Connection", which in turn helps to build a positive community profile.

10523 CHIN's various talk show programs and interview features regularly include guests and topics in the area of public safety, for example, Ontario Community Council on Impaired Driving, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, Toronto Police Traffic Unit for proper use of child restraints in vehicles. These topics are addressed in many languages on radio and even on CHIN's ethnic programming on Citytv.

10524 CHIN is quick to respond to the Toronto Police Service's Recruiting Department. The Toronto Police Service is working actively toward better reflecting the diverse cultural community of Toronto.

10525 Through CHIN, we are able to speak to ethnic community members directly, inviting them to consider working with the police service. As demographics evolve, so too does our recruiting strategy. For instance, the South Asian, Hindi and Punjabi programming has been accessed for recruitment initiatives.

10526 CHIN's Chinese programs welcome specialists and notices from Toronto police on the topics of public safety as they relate to the Asian Crime Unit or protecting the elderly from telephone fraud.

10527 CHIN radio provides a forum in many languages to explain firearm registration regulations, the safe storage of rifles for hunting and gun collections and the related laws.

10528 Every year CHIN Radio provides the Toronto Police Service with space at the CHIN International Picnic. We take this opportunity to set up displays for CrimeStoppers and Recruiting for the regular service and for auxiliary. We use this as a general community outreach.

10529 Alerts and warnings are vital to public safety. Through CHIN, over and above the usual news, the Toronto police issues special bulletins or alerts to people in their own languages. An example of this would be a recent warning issued to the public about a sexual predator in Toronto who was targeting South Asian women. CHIN is always prompt in its response with newscasts and special bulletins, immediately translating and airing vital information for public safety.

10530 Our police officers, who speak many different languages, are welcome on CHIN Radio. Even the Chief of the Toronto Police Service, Julian Fantino, is a regular guest on many talk shows on CHIN. He is of Italian heritage and makes himself available to the community through CHIN. I must add here that I have been twice in the last 18 months on CHIN, speaking on issues relative to representation of visible minorities in the police service.

10531 CHIN is committed to providing the police with access to its airwaves, to its listeners, to its staff and producers, translators, copywriters, special events, at no cost to the Police Service. This is done for the greater benefit of the may communities that CHIN serves.

10532 The Toronto Police Service has benefited, and continues to benefit, from CHIN's strong commitment to community and benevolence.

10533 CHIN has made application for a new ethnic service in Toronto. It would enable CHIN to provide more programming in more languages. The Toronto Police Service is confident that through CHIN's new service, the police and the community would have more communication and in more languages. Anything that might detract from CHIN's current radio programming, or reduce CHIN's programming, would be, in my view, regrettable. It would be a loss to ethnic communities and a loss to the Toronto Police Services' positive interactive access to those communities.

10534 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Forde, for your presentation, which will be added to your written presentation through the court reporter.

10535 Oh, we have a question. Commissioner Noël.

10536 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Just maybe one question, Mr. Forde.

10537 When you are talking at the end of your exposé about:

"Anything that might detract from CHIN's current radio programming or reduce CHIN's programming would be regrettable."

10538 You are talking about the fact that the 101.3 frequency is now open and they would lose their rebroadcaster at night. That is what you are referring to?

10539 MR. FORDE: Yes. I am talking about anything that would reduce what we are doing now. I am looking for enhancement as opposed to a reduction that will have an effect on how we relate with the ethnic population through CHIN Radio station.

10540 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

10541 MR. FORDE: Thank you.

10542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Forde.

10543 MR. FORDE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10544 THE CHAIRPERSON: A good day to you.

10545 MR. FORDE: Thank you.

10546 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10547 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10548 We will now hear the intervention from Fernando Valladares.

--- Pause

INTERVENTION

10549 MR. VALLADARES: Madam Chairman and Members of the Commission, good morning and thank you for the opportunity.

10550 My name is Fernando Valladares. I came to Canada in 1972 as any new immigrant looking for opportunities and a better future. In the first two years I worked in different jobs such as construction, busboy and cleaning, to name a few.

10551 Then in 1974 I became involved in the first Hispanic newspaper known as "Correo Hispano Americano". In those days our community was made of no more than a few thousand people from the 20 different countries that speak Spanish.

10552 In 1979 I was fortunate enough to become an Executive Assistant to Toronto City Councillor Tony O'Donohue. During my 10 years in this position I had the opportunity to experience the growth of communities such as the Italian, Portuguese and Greek, to name a few.

10553 These communities were developing a prominent presence in the City of Toronto and surrounding areas.

10554 It was in 1981 that, with the help of Councillor Tony O'Donohue, we decided to do something for the growing Hispanic community in Toronto.

10555 We founded Las Flores Foundation with the purpose of creating civic awareness of the Spanish community in the city, of promoting the Spanish culture and of uniting the different Spanish nationalities under one flag and under one voice.

10556 After 22 years, Las Flores Foundation has many great achievements. It helped Spanish immigrants to integrate to Canadian society and it raised funds for disaster relief to help Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador, Chile, Peru throughout the 1980s.

10557 It also worked with sick children from those regions, whose only hope for survival was the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.

10558 Another accomplishment was the construction of Las Flores, a non-profit housing corporation which today houses 134 needy families, many of them of Hispanic origin.

10559 The accomplishments are many and they could not have been as successful as they were without access to ethnic media, Spanish media, and especially CHIN Radio, to mobilize the support of Toronto's Spanish community.

10560 I am here in support of CHIN's application and to thank the station for the great support that I, and the organization that I represent, received from CHIN Radio over the years.

10561 CHIN's doors were always and are always open. CHIN supported and supports many of the initiatives in our community for many years through programming such as talk shows, community announcements and radiothons.

10562 I first met Mr. Johnny Lombardi in the 1980s. He referred to me as Fernando Cha, Cha, Cha. I will always remember his encouragement for me to feel proud of being a Canadian of Spanish origin. His sense of civic duty was tireless. He always wanted me to promote and be of use to the community at large.

10563 CHIN Radio was one of our main contributors, and with CHIN's support we created "Hispanic Fiesta", a festival of all Hispanic speaking peoples under one roof. Over the last 22 years we have been promoting Hispanic culture, dance, music, foods, arts and crafts and community involvement.

10564 The importance of broadcasting to ethnic communities in their language of origin in an honest and constructive way cannot be overstated.

10565 The Spanish community is the fastest growing group of immigrants in North America. It is very important that the members of the Spanish community integrate into Canadian society without forgetting their roots. It is even more important that ethnic communities do not lose their sense of neighbourhood, their dedication to charity and to helping those in need.

10566 Without this application and the use of the repeater, Spanish programming cannot be sustained by CHIN. This will be devastating to the Spanish community which has become so attached to CHIN radio, and it will seriously erode and put a strain on all of the years of good social service that the Spanish community in Toronto has provided.

10567 We don't want to think of that prospect. In fact, we in the Spanish community are very excited about CHIN's interest to increase the number of hours of daily radio in Spanish.

10568 This will make our community better. It will ensure that we continue to be community-minded and more aware of our contribution to Canadian society.

10569 I know that the Lombardi tradition is alive and well in Johnny's children. I have been personally involved with Lenny Lombardi in the creation of "The Taste of Little Italy", one of the most attended and successful events in Toronto.

10570 I believe that the CHIN application before you also demonstrates that the Lombardi tradition is not just a thing of the past.

10571 It embodies an exciting vision for the future. It involves even more cultural communities as living and dynamic social entities. It demands continued commitment and dedication to social causes. It teaches us to be proud, to be strong and to make our contribution to Canada.

10572 Thank you very much.

10573 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Valladares.

10574 Shall I call you Mr. Cha Cha Cha?

10575 MR. VALLADARES: I have been called that many times.

10576 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentation.

10577 MR. VALLADARES: Thank you.

10578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10579 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10580 We will now hear from the Canadian Association of Physicians of Indian Origin.

10581 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

INTERVENTION

10582 DR. MORZARIA: Good morning, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to be here again.

10583 My name is Rasik Morzaria, and I represent CAPIO, which is Canadian Association of Physicians of Indian Origin.

10584 In my written submission, I described CAPIO to you. Let me now tell you a little bit about myself.

10585 I was born in Kenya, of Indian parents. I am a pediatrician in Scarborough. I obtained my medical degree in England. I have also lived briefly in the U.S., but for the past 29 years I have chosen to make Canada my home.

10586 In addition to being the founding President of CAPIO, I have also served on the Scarborough General Hospital Foundation Board, as well as various committees there. I am a Past President of the Indo Canada Chamber of Commerce and a past member of the advisory board, as well.

10587 For the past ten years I have also had the privilege to serve on the board of the Governors of York University.

10588 I am also actively involved in the South Asian Council of the Heart and Stroke Foundation and various other community organizations.

10589 I have covered my main reason for endorsing this application in my written submission, so I won't go into details here. I would, however, like to elaborate on a few points, as well as comment on a couple of issues that were raised during these hearings.

10590 Let me start by saying that I was truly impressed that the CRTC took the proactive step to license an ethnic radio station in the GTA, and I congratulate you. Your choice of an applicant at these hearings will have a significant impact on the multi-ethnic community for years to come.

10591 What distinguishes us in Canada from our neighbours to the south is the way we have chosen to deal with our new Canadians. They have chosen the "melting pot" scenario, much like Mr. Ford when he introduced the first T-Model Ford car. You could have any colour you wanted, as long as it was black.

10592 We in Canada have chosen to encourage diversity. Also, rather than value individual rights above all, we have elected to place a greater emphasis on the wellbeing of society as a whole.

10593 I believe we are right on both counts. Institutions like the CRTC were created to protect and encourage these ideals.

10594 CHIN's record is well known to you, and I will leave other intervenors to elaborate on their merit. My support for this application stems from my knowledge of ATN. They have shown expertise and passion for their craft and bring extensive experience in dealing fairly, uniformly and, I believe, extremely well with the South Asian community for the past 28 years.

10595 The strong support from all cultural and religious groups attests to that. They also have an excellent record of supporting and promoting community ventures. The timing and reduced number of hours of proposed Punjabi language programming in the current application is evidence of this.

10596 Punjabi is one of the major languages of South Asians in the GTA and in Canada, but there is already close to 100 hours of Punjabi programming produced by small independent broadcasters in Toronto. CHIN ATN has therefore chosen not to compete directly with them. In my opinion, the most important attribute brought to this application by ATN is their long-term stability.

10597 I realize that the Commission feels that the mainstay of this application is the South Asian programming by ATN. I would agree with you. Mr. Lombardi alluded to an agreement with ATN. Nonetheless, I would endorse a CRTC decision to make their collaboration a condition of licence, should you so choose.

10598 There was also some discussion on the need for, and the structure of, an advisory board. I have served on various such boards, and I am currently on the advisory board of ATN. I would strongly endorse this idea.

10599 Such bodies bring their experience, input and feedback to the table. They would also hold the licensee accountable to their commitments. At ATN, it was because of the advisory board's recommendation that the station has chosen to promote South Asian Heart Health and will be holding a Telethon next year for the Heart and Stroke Foundation to support this.

10600 However, I would recommend that the composition of the board not be strictly proportionate but comprise of such individuals who are committed, knowledgeable and passionate and considered leaders in their community.

10601 The combined experience and expertise of CHIN and ATN will give the ethnic community a head start with this licence. Involvement of independent associate producers from many other ethnic groups will give them a stake in this venture. It will also bring many of them even closer together and may lead to future joint collaborations.

10602 I believe this application already brings together the most number of ethnic communities and the broadest range of proposed programs. Therefore, I support this application very strongly.

10603 I thank you for giving me this opportunity to appear before you today. If you have any questions, I would be very happy to answer them.

10604 Thank you.

935

10605 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, we have no questions. Your position and support for the CHIN application is clear.

10606 We thank you for your participation, Dr. Morzaria.

10607 DR. MORZARIA: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

10608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10609 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10610 We will now hear as a panel the Yee Hong Community Wellness Foundation and the Hospital for Sick Children Foundation.

10611 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies.

INTERVENTION

10612 MS TONG: Good morning.

10613 Ladies and gentlemen, first I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for allowing me to participate in this process. I hope that what I say will have an impact, because this is the second time around that I come to support a multicultural station. This is something that I feel very passionately about, so I hope that my passion will spill over.

10614 Although Canada prides itself on being a multicultural and tolerant country, there is still a tremendous amount to be done. Racial bigotry, ignorance and small-mindedness are not problems designated to other countries; they remain our problems, as well.

10615 Is there anything that we can do? The answer, fortunately, is a qualified yes.

10616 But the way to build a national community that honours mutual understanding goes beyond simply addressing things like the dangers of racial profiling. The way to build a broad-minded community involves the integration of all people into this nation's social institutions and popular discourse.

10617 The media remains the most socializing force in the world. So let's start there.

10618 Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Pauline Tong, and I am the President of the Yee Hong Community Wellness Foundation. We raise funds to build and support the Yee Hong Centre for Geriatric Care.

10619 We wholeheartedly support CHIN's application to the CRTC for a new ethnic FM radio station serving the Greater Toronto Area, broadcasting on FM frequency 101.3.

10620 There are still so many minorities and immigrants in Canada that the media has failed to reach, and the need for a more diverse Canadian radio spectrum has never been greater.

10621 There are currently a number of underserved ethnic groups, particularly those from the South Asian community and the Mandarin speaking Chinese in my community. They still feel like foreigners in their home country because the media has fallen short of reaching them, of including them in the Canadian milieu, of making them full participants in this multicultural country.

10622 I was born in Hong Kong, and I received my university and postgraduate education in broadcasting and mass communications in the United States in the 1970s. As someone who immigrated to Canada in the mid 1970s, moving to Canada and Toronto was quite a culture shock for me. But it was well worth the initial jolt.

10623 After a while, I came to marvel in the diversity of this country and to appreciate the vast array of languages, cultures, ethnicities and nationalities that it has to offer. But there is still something missing.

10624 I really appreciate the federal policy of multiculturalism, because it legitimizes my existence as a Chinese Canadian. As someone who years ago struggled in the broadcasting industry and later became involved in numerous causes, I realized how peripheral I was made to feel.

10625 There were two major reasons why I felt this way:

10626 First, I was short-changed by how invisible I was to the mainstream media. The messages, images and voices were racially homogenized, hard for me to associate with.

10627 Second, important and crucial issues to a visible minority seldom received attention. I remember begging the mainstream media to cover Dragon Ball, the major fundraising event for Yee Hong Centre for Geriatric Care.

10628 To give you the scale of this, Dragon Ball raised a quarter of a million the first year, 1990. Now it raises a net of $1.5 million -- a great accomplishment. I think it is partly because we were covered by the ethnic media.

10629 Thankfully, there were people who took notice. Due to the tremendous endeavours of a few ethnic media to incorporate the Chinese Canadian community into their stations, we no longer feel like an insubstantial part of this country or a group who never fully made it into the Canadian limelight.

10630 The existence of the Canadian Chinese community is becoming validated simply by virtue of seeing and hearing the Chinese cultural identity or issues of great relevance to us on radio and television. And it feels wonderful.

10631 CHIN is a big part of this validation process. CHIN has been the radio sponsor for Dragon Ball and a number of our fundraising events. Notably, it has even initiated and planned a fundraising event, the CHIN Mah Jong Charity Contest, to benefit Yee Hong.

10632 CHIN is one of our most important channels to inform the community of all our activities and events through its comprehensive coverage. Very significantly, it shares with the Chinese Canadian community and other cultural ethnic groups represented in the station our struggle and our success in the development and growth of a world-class geriatric care centre.

10633 Yee Hong Centre is now a model of geriatric care, visited and studied by delegations from around the world. It initially only catered to Chinese Canadian seniors who were woefully underserved. Now we are developing three new centres that will be serving tens of thousands of seniors with culturally and linguistically appropriate services in York, Peel and Toronto. We are extending our services with a focus on the South Asians, Filipinos and Japanese Canadians.

10634 This amazing achievement can only happen in Canada -- the best geriatric care centre in the world.

10635 So we endorse CHIN all the way. Just as CHIN has helped integrate Chinese Canadians into this country's social tapestry, let us allow it to extend its mandate even further so that it can serve other minorities and newly-landed immigrants in Canada as well.

10636 With its past accomplishments, CHIN deserves to be given the chance to bring FM 101.3 into the Canadian media spotlight. With this new channel, CHIN will offer much-need familiarity to those in Canada who still do not feel they are included. This applies especially to the South Asian community, the Mandarin speaking Chinese and other underserved groups.

10637 Through CHIN's innovative cultivation of diversity we can help create a nation endowed with mutual understanding between its respective cultures.

10638 Of concern to me and the Yee Hong Community Wellness Foundation is the threat that CHIN's current Chinese programming on AM 1540 is in jeopardy of losing the FM repeater that greatly improves reception, especially at night.

10639 Since CHIN offers 20 hours per week of Chinese programs on AM 1540, much of this is affected by poor nighttime reception but is helped by the FM repeater. Loss of this repeater would reduce valuable service to the community, which would adversely affect Yee Hong's fundraising and community outreach programs supported by CHIN.

10640 We fully support all three of CHIN's applications and trust you will recognize the merits and importance in each one of them.

10641 Please join me in supporting a radio station that has helped so many others feel welcome in Canada. The difference it has made in our lives is so significant that I find myself sitting here asking you to help make it a part of others' lives as well.

10642 Thank you.

10643 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Tong.

10644 Does that complete both your presentations?

10645 You will make your presentation now on behalf of the hospital?

10646 MS SALIMOS: That's correct.

10647 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

INTERVENTION

10648 MS SALIMOS: Thank you.

10649 I would first like to apologize for not providing paperwork to accompany my remarks.

10650 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. It will eventually be a paper.

10651 MS SALIMOS: Absolutely.

10652 Distinguished Members of the Commission, I am here as a representative of the Hospital for Sick Children Foundation in Toronto.

10653 My name is Angela Salimos. I am a development officer whose responsibilities include all community-based fundraising activities in the ethnic communities of Ontario.

10654 For nearly 20 years CHIN Radio TV International has been our main outlet for multicultural fundraising. Many years ago, we approached Johnny Lombardi to host a segment of the Sick Kids' Telethon.

10655 We did this as a direct fundraising strategy to engage many of Toronto's ethnic communities and connected them to the hospital through a familiar and loved icon.

10656 Johnny Lombardi introduced us to many of CHIN's ethnic producers who all participated wholeheartedly raising awareness and donations from the Italian, Portuguese, South Asian, Chinese, Caribbean, Greek, Polish communities -- and that just names a few.

10657 CHIN involved all their radio and TV celebrities in our cause and did so much more. Subsequently, CHIN Radio initiated their own fundraising campaign for Sick Kids. They began using the airwave to broadcast radio and television events, appealing to their audiences for donations.

10658 Since this activity was established, CHIN Radio and Television programming has raised well over one million dollars for Sick Kids.

10659 Johnny Lombardi and CHIN is synonymous with Sick Kids. After Mr. Lombardi's death just this year, the Lombardi family set up a fund in his memory. We call this fund the Johnny Lombardi Tribute Fund. In the short time since his death, this fund has raised an unprecedented $130,000 with funds still arriving on the Foundation's doorstep daily.

10660 The outpouring of support in memory of Johnny Lombardi proves this city's devotion and appreciation of him, and more importantly a strong, established and loyal community of listeners of CHIN Radio programming.

10661 The funds raised by CHIN for Sick Kids have all been invested in research and technology. This support has contributed to the discovery of causes and cure of many childhood illnesses and disease. The effects of these discoveries are far-reaching, helping children in hospitals across the country and around the world.

10662 We have thankfully been the recipients of funds raised on both the AM and FM radio stations and have come to rely upon the funds we receive from all available broadcast outlets.

10663 We rely on this for both the financial support, but also for the reach to the ethnic communities we may not have otherwise met.

10664 This relationship has been, and continues to be, a valuable partnership to the Hospital for Sick Children Foundation.

10665 Our established relationship spans 20 years of history and our success and growth in Toronto has been intertwined. We feel confident that CHIN will continue to serve this hospital through their existing and future broadcast outlets as they expand their reach in the ethnic communities of Toronto.

10666 Given the tremendous support and contributions CHIN Radio has provided Sick Kids throughout the years, we fully support CHIN's application to provide a new FM service to 24 cultural groups. For us, for the Hospital for Sick Children Foundation their role is vital, as it is, I am sure, to the ethnic communities that they serve.

10667 Thank you.

0950

10668 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lister?

10669 MS SALIMOS: Salimos.

10670 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not the same as the signatory to your --

10671 MS SALIMOS: That would Ms Lister, our President and CEO. She is fortunately with the board today.

10672 THE CHAIRPERSON: We thank you both for your presentations.

10673 MS SALIMOS: You are welcome.

10674 THE CHAIRPERSON: It will be transcribed and added to your written one.

10675 MS SALIMOS: Thank you.

10676 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

10677 Mr. Secretary, please.

10678 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10679 We will now hear from Friends of Canada.

INTERVENTION

10680 MR. JOSHI: Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, and the profession and the audience. I hope you listen to me too.

10681 As you can see I am short fellow. I have a small business, but I am also short on speeches. I'm not very good at public speaking. So I hope you will forgive me.

10682 I am celebrating my 70th birthday on October 14th which means I am the oldest person so far to represent and I hope you take that into account also.

10683 My name is Dinker Joshi and coming to North America with a name like Dinker, some people raise their eyebrows, some people smile, and some people are rude enough to outright laugh at me.

10684 But I didn't select that name. I am stuck with it.

10685 I was born in a small village in India. The population was 117. After 40 years, it has grown to 127, the reason being most of them left the village for better prospects on the rails. I came all the way to Canada.

10686 I managed to obtain three degrees: A BA, BCOMM, and an MBA in the U.S.A. I arrived in Canada on July 5, 1967 and it was a period of struggle initially, but I made steady progress.

10687 I am very pleased to say that I am the owner of a business. We print decals and coming from a very small village in a Third World country like India, I am very satisfied to tell you that some of our decals have gone into space on loan, because one of the Space Agencies was our customer. Nothing to do with Dinker Joshi. We just got lucky. So from Canada it happened.

10688 In 1972, when our great country opened the doors to the immigrants, I was asked to preside over the New Immigrants Association in Montreal and we helped quite a few. At that time we didn't know how to approach radio or television stations because there were none available in our ethnic that I knew of at that time.

10689 In 1976, I was invited to join the Rotary and I am still active. After serving various positions, including president of our club, I was awarded the Paul Harris Fellowship which is considered a very high honour among the Rotarians.

10690 I also served as a director on the board of Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce as Dr. Morzaria has done.

10691 I am now the president of Friends of Canada, an organization founded to express our joy and appreciation for the privilege of being a citizen of Canada, and I have attached this flyer along with my things. We honour deserving candidates from Canada and from other countries.

10692 We had a very successful event a couple of years back and I am not used to this, but when I stood up and said loudly how lucky we are to be in Canada, and if there is any place between us and heaven, it is Canada. Would you believe everybody stood up and gave an ovation. I felt very, very good about it because we appreciate this country very, very much, and we will continue to do our bit to be good citizens in this country.

10693 But again, what we need is our ability to reach out to other people, and I will give you two examples.

10694 In 1960, when I travelled to the U.S.A. to get my MBA, we landed in Napoli and then went to Rome. My God, the people in Italy have a different word for every word that we speak of. I couldn't understand anything. I was hungry for the language, and that was a very normal experience for me to get hungry for the language.

10695 So what I did was I walked around and at about 12 midnight there was a lawyer, an Englishman. They have very wide sidewalks and he was having some soft drink. So I said, "Do you know English?". He said, "Yes. Sit down. I am from England" and we had a chat for about ten minutes and that quenched my thirst or hunger, whatever you want to call it.

10696 When I came to Canada in 1967, there were not too many people of our origin. So I used to cross the street, almost run to somebody if I saw somebody who looked like they were from our part of the world.

10697 A couple of times I was very surprised when they said, "I don't know what you are talking about. I am from the Bahamas or Bermuda. I only speak English". But at least you do feel the hunger for the language.

10698 What CHIN/ATN are doing is to band this initiative, and again, I am extremely, extremely happy because in our country we have a body like yours who listens to people, who gives them the opportunity to express themselves.

10699 There are two opposite forces that are taking place in the world today. In terms of commerce, countries are getting closer. Globalization is taking place. In terms of ethnic identity and political identity, the world is kind of breaking down. Is it a healthy force or not a healthy force?

10700 It's for the future generations to decide, but I really like the way things are going under the auspices of the United Nations, and thanks to the leadership of country, which is the example set by us which is followed by many other countries, I am very hopeful about the progress of our human race.

10701 In 1981, when I was the president of Richmond Hill Rotary Club, we had an India Night, ethnic night, and to get people, somebody told, "Maybe you should talk to Shan".

10702 I went to Shan and he immediately agreed to give us the television and I remember the saying, "Those who hesitate, miss the mark" and Shan I have known him for over 21 years, he has never ever hesitated to do a good deed for the community or the people.

10703 The other thing I noticed is our district government used to say, "The second most contagious thing in life is lack of enthusiasm. The most contagious is enthusiasm" and this man just exudes so much enthusiasm, so much particular feelings that for me it has been really a learning experience.

10704 So although chronologically I am 70, I think that physically I am about 60, and psychologically I am about 30 years old.

--- Laughter / Rires

10705 MR. JOSHI: In 1983, when there was the earthquake in India, we from the district also approached Shan and he was ready to help us. So we had tremendous publicity on this ethnic station, and as a result we built 63 houses over there, and there is a six by four marble plaque -- not plaque, stone standing there with the name of Canada, with our flag, and things like this. It happened because ATN was very, very helpful.

10706 Now, I have also attached a couple of pages. I am very much involved now into the Polio Plus and what the Rotary is doing, they are raising not only funds, but they are giving a lot of personal help in eradicating polio throughout the world.

10707 We started in 1988 and since then 99.8 per cent has been out. We have a very small percentage left. In 1988 there were 350,000 cases in 125 countries. Today, there are 480 cases in ten countries.

10708 So what we are doing is working with the United Nations, working with the governments like the United States, Canada, European countries, Japan and other countries, and also Mr. Bill Gates is very generous with us.

10709 We are going to raise $1 billion by the year 2005 to completely say goodbye to polio. We couldn't do that without the media, without the television, without the radio. We have to reach people. That's the only way we can do it and knowing ATN, Shani Lombardi, and now Lenny Lombardi, I am sure we will get that kind of support to go public and talk about it.

10710 So what I am saying is there are a lot of good things that can be done, but the key factor in any successful organization is the human factor.

10711 Sorry, I will be very quick.

10712 I think that Shan and Lenny have a lot of experience. They have high integrity and they are very dedicated to the job, and everything they do in life is ultimately for the benefit of larger communities. I cannot even make a pledge like this. It is the work probably of 10,000 plus people. But I am very pleased to be here. It is quite a privilege to be her, and thanks for listening to me.

10713 Sorry for taking more time.

10714 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Joshi.

10715 Your presentation will be transcribed and added to your written one.

10716 Mr. Secretary, please.

10717 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10718 We will now hear the intervention by COSTI Immigrant Services.

--- Pause

10719 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

10720 MR. CALLA: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

10721 This morning we have been hearing -- what I hear is a theme emerging on CHIN Radio that the station is community-minded and very accessible to the diverse communities of Toronto. I would like to add my voice to those presentations.

10722 My name is Mario Calla. I am the Executive Director of COSTI Immigrant Services. I have been in that position for the past 15 years.

10723 I bring regrets from Mr. Ahmed Semitar(ph), a colleague from the Somali community who had wanted to come and support the CHIN application but the timing of the intervention made it impossible for him to be here.

10724 I want to tell you about my organization's work with CHIN and why I support their application.

10725 COSTI is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. It was founded by the Italian community 50 years ago and is now a multicultural organization that serves about 30,000 people a year in 76 different languages -- or at least the people we serve speak 76 different languages. My multicultural staff speak over 40 different languages. We are possibly the largest immigrant service agency in Canada.

10726 We provide English as second language services, employment, training, settlement, housing services, and family and mental health counselling, among other things.

1005

10727 I want to give you an example of the impact that radio has on linguistic minorities. For the past four years COSTI has been providing a family violence prevention project through radio and television. We have engaged 11 different communities and have been providing this service in their mother language. We educate these communities about wife assault, child abuse and elder abuse.

10728 One such community, the Punjabi community, on one of their radio shows dealt with the issue of wife assault. They set it up in a culturally appropriate way. They felt that in order to get through on this sensitive subject they needed to have their elders speak about it and, because it is a delicate matter, to speak about it in an indirect manner.

10729 So they went on the radio and started speaking about it. The initial phone calls, because it was a phone-in show, were from men who basically were saying "Why are we talking about this? This doesn't happen in our community." But then the women started to call in, and their stories basically showed the community that this was a much bigger problem than they thought.

10730 There were other issues, widows who were talking about that here they are forced by the community to quickly remarry because culturally they should not be without a husband and that this was difficult. They weren't being allowed time to grieve.

10731 The community felt they had an issue here, a problem they needed to deal with. They consequently set up community meetings. At those meetings they invited the mainstream community service providers such as the police, family service association, and so on. This led to the establishment of culturally appropriate support services as Punjabi staff were hired to serve this community.

10732 The importance of multilingual, culturally appropriate radio can't be underestimated as an integrating force in our society. In my example, the Punjabi community was forced to confront a problem and allowed itself to resolve it by connecting with the host community. Traditional solutions such as the intervention of the expanded family are not possible here because they are separated from extended family and they are isolated.

10733 Whenever any of my social workers appear on CHIN Radio, our phones light up with people calling for assistance. Sometimes this happens while they are still on the radio talking about a specific issue.

10734 It became such a problem that I had to issue a memo to my managers basically telling them: If any of our staff appear on radio, please notify our head office beforehand so that we can redirect people who call to the appropriate service at COSTI, because we operate 12 different centres.

10735 This phenomenon that I described of the Punjabi community, or at least the phenomenon of the calls that we get at COSTI has been equally true for our Portuguese, Spanish and Italian radio appearances.

10736 Not only has CHIN Radio been a powerful medium for linguistic minorities to address important local issues but, just as importantly, it has been accessible and free.

10737 In the example of the Punjabi community and the family violence prevention initiative, that initiative was funded by the federal government in three different locations, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. We at COSTI coordinated our efforts with the other two cities. What we found was that here in Toronto we were able to serve twice as many communities as they did in Montreal and Vancouver, because our colleagues there had to pay for their air time. CHIN has provided all of their air time for free.

10738 In contrast with the Montreal and Vancouver experience, CHIN Radio seems to take pride in engaging communities on important local issues and, as I say, provides this access for free.

10739 For me, my support of CHIN Radio's application comes down to four basic reasons.

10740 They provide programming in a rainbow list of 24 languages. I think their assistant producer approach allows autonomy and an independent approach that mitigates against the imposition of one culture's values over another. This maximizes culturally appropriate programming.

10741 The second reason, CHIN has a proven track record. My impression is that their programming isn't just based on a business plan, but rather on a broader vision that is inclusive of all communities. An example of this is their popular annual CHIN Picnic which celebrates diversity and draws thousands of people.

10742 Third, CHIN is committed. Their staying power is a result of their adaptability to the changing demographics of the community.

10743 Fourthly, if CHIN loses their repeater frequency, some smaller and more isolated communities risk becoming cut off from this radio lifeline, as late evening programming will be affected.

10744 Finally, my belief in the value of CHIN radio's work is such that I have agreed to Chair their Community Advisory Board. This way I can invite local community leaders from various backgrounds to advise CHIN management on the quality of their programming, the needs of various communities and their level of access to radio time.

10745 Thank you for the opportunity to express my views regarding this application.

10746 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Calla. Your presentation will be added to your written one and will be part of the record.

10747 MR. CALLA: Thank you.

10748 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a 15-minute break. We will be back at 10:30.

10749 Nous reprendrons à 10 h 30.

--- Upon recessing at 1013 / Suspension à 1013

--- Upon resuming at 1038 / Reprise à 1038

10750 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

10751 Mr. Secretary, please.

10752 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10753 We will now hear from the South Asian Student Association.

INTERVENTION

10754 MR. SHAH: Good morning. We will just take a brief second to introduce ourselves. I hate talking about myself, but I think it will provide some context as to why we are here.

10755 My name is Mihir Shah and beside me is Shilpa Kothary. She didn't know she was going to be able to make it so she hasn't prepared anything, so I am going to speak on behalf of an organization called the South Asian Student Association.

10756 Just a bit of a brief history about myself. I was actually born in India, came here when I was about six months old. So, for all intents and purposes, Canada has been my home for my entire life.

10757 Shilpa was born in the UK and moved here about seven or eight years ago and since then has lived here.

10758 I am a graduate from the University of Waterloo in the chartered accounting program. I hold the chartered accountant designation, also a Masters of Accounting. I am better looking than most accountants I think. There are a few and hopefully I am not as boring.

10759 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are not as good looking as they used to be.

10760 MR. SHAH: Really! That's disappointing. Hopefully I'm not as boring as the rest of them are. I hope to entertain.

--- Laughter / Rires

10761 MR. SHAH: I haven't prepared anything formally, just because I would rather discuss things informally and actually allow it to be a bit interactive so you can surely understand where we are coming from and what we are about. I understand things will be transcribed anyway.

10762 Just a bit about my history. In terms of student or academic life, I recently graduated back in 1999. I was part of the University of Waterloo Senate as a student member. I was also the Chairperson of the Accounting Students Association, as well as President of the Accounting Students Association, and many other posts there.

10763 Extracurricularly -- if that is even a word -- I have been extremely involved in the South Asian student scene for many, many years. Certain things that I have been involved in: President of the Indian Students Association at University of Waterloo; Chair of the large sports tournament that has happened at Laurier and happens every year; Board of the University of Waterloo Culture Show, which is a variety show, which I will get to a in a couple of minutes; as well as Vice-Chair of an Organization called the South Asian Student Association, which is what I am here representing; as well the Co-Chair of another cultural variety show called the Ahtma(ph) Cultural Show.

10764 Just a brief history about SASA, the South Asian Student Association. We are a North American-wide body of students representing students of South Asian origin. We are not exclusive, but that is our target market.

10765 What we do is, we organize conferences, variety shows and other events to allow South Asian students from across North America to meet, interact and basically create a forum for each other to learn from each other. It allows, from a networking perspective, career development, as well as a forum to discuss social issues and issues of the day.

10766 Most recently we organized a conference in Toronto back in January of this year. We had an attendance of over 2,500 people from all over North America.

10767 Unfortunately, I only have one copy of the program that we had used for that. You can see it. I think Madam Chair has it.

10768 What we tried to is, we tried to bring professionalism to the South Asian student organizational bodies.

10769 We support initiatives all across Canada and the United States at the university level. So we support Indian student associations at the university levels.

10770 At this conference that we just had, we had guest speaker Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, Honourable Minister, I believe of Fisheries at that point, Herb Dhaliwal, and various other speakers at that conference as opening and keynote speakers.

10771 Additionally, we had seminars during days where we talked about topics such as AIDS, the prevalence of AIDS in today's society, how do we deal with this as students, other things like abuse, as well as more geopolitical things that are happening in the world. At that time, of course in January, after September 11th, that was a huge topic that we did cover. So basically allowing a forum to interact with each other.

10772 We held it at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, Roy Thomson Hall, as well as we had two primary hotels, Crowne Plaza Toronto and the Holiday Inn downtown. So what we try to do is organize large scale conferences for large broad-based South Asian students.

10773 The other thing that we do as an organization called SASA, we organize a yearly cultural competition, which is a variety show that features acts from all across North American -- which features acts, I'm sorry, from all across India. Different regions in India have various different acts or cultural styles and dances. We bring that all together into one day. Last year it was part of the SASA conference and this year it is actually on January 18th.

10774 Now I'm going to actually talk about why I really support ATN and CHIN's bid for the 101.3 station.

10775 ATN has been a strong supporter. To I think clearly articulate it, I don't think there is anyone else who has been as enthusiastic and as open to supporting SASA and our initiatives as ATN. We have tried, it must have been at least 10 or 15 other South Asian media outlets with no response.

10776 Khali Shan, on the first time, didn't even know who I was and immediately said "Come on in. What can we do for you? How do we make this work mutually?"

10777 He has given us countless hours of on-air TV promotions, enabling us to talk about our issues, talk about our programs, talk about our events and why we are important. Nobody else has ever given us that type of exposure. And we have tried. Believe me, we have tried.

10778 He has given us time to actually air our commercials, but not only commercials, spots and segments. He has provided us coverage at our events, and he has broadcast them throughout North America. He has contacts in the U.S. that we have been able to leverage and build our profile.

10779 Other things that he has done is help us secure corporate sponsors to bring profile to our events. There is no way we would have been able to get the Royal Bank to sponsor our conference and our shows. There is no way we would have been able to get HSBC Bank to sponsor our shows and events without ATN's support. These corporations do look for media contact. If they are going to give money, then they want to get exposure. ATN has been an extremely strong supporter of that and without them I don't think we would have been able to do it.

10780 Let me address the issue of ATN's radio exposure.

10781 It has been limited, but I want to bring it out now that ATN has by far been the most professional organization that I have ever dealt with in a strictly South Asian context.

10782 I have full faith in their ability to be able to deliver broad access, broad means of South Asian programming to the entire South Asian market. I don't mean just Punjabi or just Gujurati or just a certain segment of India; we are talking the entire basic subcontinent.

10783 Their professionalism, their enthusiasm -- and I think somebody else said it, and he kind of stole my line -- is really legitimately contagious. You call him and on the drop of a dime he is prepared to talk to you and make things work and see what he can do for you. That is Shan, and that is ATM.

10784 Just a bit about Shan. He is literally a man of the community. I am 27, and as long as I have been alive my parents always talked about him. So he has had to have been around for at least 27 years.

10785 He is literally a man of the community, being involved in many, many different projects. I don't know how he does it. I work and so does he, and he seems to have more time than I do. Either he is a better time manager or he just has better resources. But he is a man of the community.

10786 When he says things, he delivers. That is crucial.

10787 He has created hundreds of jobs for South Asian students, South Asians in general. I think the radio provides us an access or a medium that is significantly lacking to us as a community to promote South Asian students entering the radio market in terms of journalism, broadcast, and things of those nature. I think it is crucial, and Shan has always been a strong supporter of that.

10788 Without that medium right now or without that exposure, the South Asian market is drastically lacking the access to that medium to promote itself in that medium.

10789 On a personal note, I think Shan is probably one of the humblest gentlemen I have ever met in my life. When he called me and asked if I support him, I said: "You've got to be crazy. Of course I do." How could I not?

10790 I think he is the easiest person to deal with and, by extension, ATN as well. I think ATN has to be a condition of licence to CHIN. I cannot think of another South Asian broadcaster or South Asian entity that can deliver professional quality and be supportive of the community programming that ATN will. They have delivered on everything in the past, and I am sure they will deliver on everything in the future.

10791 I think that's it. Hopefully ask questions because I hate talking.

10792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Shah.

10793 MS KOTHARY: I know that I wasn't prepared to come here, but I think if I came here and I didn't speak for ATN I would feel extremely guilty and probably burst when I go outside.

10794 So if it is not a problem, I would like to take a few seconds to say a few words of support.

10795 I was the media chair for SASA, and to me it was the biggest challenge getting support; trying to get people to believe in us as a youth association. It is exactly how Mihir said. When I called Shan, when we called Shan, he basically bent over backwards to help us. He did not treat us like youths; he treated us like adults. He went above and beyond what I expected somebody to do for us.

10796 He believed in us. He said we will one day be the leaders of the community and that we have to help each other.

10797 When I lived in England it was very different. The community was there and the multiculturalism was there, but it was to a different extent. Everybody wasn't willing to help everybody. It was each culture had their own group.

10798 I came here and I see how everybody works together. I see how the Italian community, the Indian community, everyone is coming together. And coming from a country that doesn't have that, I sit here today and I feel really proud to say that I am Canadian and that the culture that I grew up with and that I am living around still exists.

10799 I am able to be a part of it because of companies and organizations like ATN giving the youth and giving everybody in the community the opportunity to do that and by supporting everybody.

10800 I just had to say that, because I wouldn't have felt complete without saying it today.

10801 Thank you.

10802 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to both of you.

10803 Commissioner Cardozo has a question.

10804 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10805 Thank you very much, Mr. Shah. For somebody who hates talking, you sure talk a blue streak.

10806 MR. SHAH: I just hate talking about myself.

10807 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It made a lot of sense, and we appreciate that.

10808 I want to ask either or both of you to give me your thoughts about third language programming and how it relates to people your age and younger; whether we should be looking at cultural programming and to what extent young people may be interested in the cultural aspect of programming but are speaking less and less of their heritage language.

10809 MR. SHAH: I don't think it is a bad thing. I think it is a sign of integration into the country. Clearly, we can't speak our old languages on a broad base in general in life in Canada.

10810 Having said that, I think Dinker said "there's a hunger for language". It's an intangible feeling that people feel when communicating in their own language.

10811 I personally, unfortunately, don't speak any of the old traditional languages but do understand them.

10812 In terms of the programming aspect, I almost think that most people of Indian origin, such as myself, consider English as an Indian language now. Even in India now, English is literally as popular and taught in schools, just along with any other language.

10813 In terms of the actual language of programming, I don't know that it is necessarily irrelevant, but I think the act is to the people of that certain culture or subculture within India. I am Gujurati, so if there was a Gujurati topic, like the earthquake that happened a couple of years ago, it would come with a lot more authority coming from a Gujurati individual.

10814 I think that is the significant thing that is lacking today, is that access to that medium to present those views from a person.

10815 What language it is done in is almost a secondary issue, I think. I think it is more talking about a specific subculture or having -- I think it is a relatable issue. I am Gujurati; he is Gujurati. I understand where he is coming from, because we have the same ancestry or heritage.

10816 MS KOTHARY: I personally do speak the language, and I understand it. The way I learned it was from watching TV and watching the movies and watching the newscasts. That is how I learned the language.

10817 For me, that is really important. When I came here from England, I was really afraid of losing that. When I saw ATN and all the other multicultural shows that come on, first thing Saturday morning I wake up and turn the TV on and that's all you hear in my house. It makes not only myself feel complete, but it makes my parents and my family feel that although we are here, we are able to still keep the language alive.

10818 In my house we do communicate in my mother tongue, which is Gujurati. We also communicate in English. It is exactly as Mihir said. Both languages to me are just as important. And being able to see shows and being able to hear the radio station with all these different languages on it also allows me to practise it.

10819 When I have children, I will be able to show them that it is not just family that speaks this language. You don't just need to be interacting with family to see this or hear this; you can learn it through other methods.

10820 I find that I learned it through the media. That's how I learned the language, and that's how I am able to communicate with people who speak languages that I don't speak, but I understand it from what I have seen and heard.

10821 MR. SHAH: Perhaps I could quickly augment that.

10822 I think the language aspect is extremely important for two specific groups of individuals. One are people like my parents who are first generation Canadians, if you can call them that. They emigrated in the early 1980s or even the 1970s. So language is an extremely crucial issue to these people.

10823 The other group are new immigrants. We get 250,000 new immigrants per year. I don't know how many are of South Asian descent. To them integrating into the society, I think they crave language because they are used to it from India or whatever region of South Asian they are from.

10824 I think the actual language is crucial for them. It helps them integrate more into Canadian life.

10825 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And I suppose seniors would be even more interested in third language programming.

10826 MR. SHAH: Yes.

10827 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of people your age, my guess is that most would be interested in watching Hindi movies, for example, and listening to Hindi or Gujurati music. But what percentage of them would be fluent in Gujurati or Hindi or other languages, of people born here?

10828 MR. SHAH: A considerable portion. A lot of them know Hindi. Don't get me wrong. I think Hindi is more the theatrical portion.

10829 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would it be more than half the population your age who are fluent in the third language?

10830 MR. SHAH: I would think so, yes.

10831 MS KOTHARY: I think so. It is exactly how it has been said before: there is a craving for the language. It comes to a point where there are even Gujurati classes because people want to learn the language. The youth of today are finding that that is the way for them to capture the language on top of what media is available in order to get the education for it.

10832 I think about 50 per cent would be accurate.

10833 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

10834 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your presentation.

10835 Mr. Secretary, please.

10836 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10837 We will now hear the panel of the Greek Community of Metropolitan Toronto and the Villa Charities.

INTERVENTION

10838 M. Di IULIO: Bonjour, madame Chair. Hello, Members of the Commission.

10839 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour.

10840 MR. Di IULIO: My name is Pal Marco Di Iulio. If you have difficulties, please call me "Pal".

10841 As a way of personal introduction, I was imported to Canada in 1957. I was a member of the Canadian Multicultural Council. I was a member of the Judicial Appointments Advisory Committee in Ontario. I speak four or five languages, and I eat in many more languages.

10842 I am here obviously to support the CHIN FM 101 application.

10843 I can honestly say that I am probably the son of CHIN. This is not a Mel Lastman story, and I don't want any inheritance, Lenny, and ladies. But I grew up listening to Mr. Lombardi in the late 1950s and early 1960s even before CHIN was born. And I think part of the languages and part of the cosmopolitan outlook that I think I have comes from those very experiences.

10844 Presently and for the past 20 years, however, I have been the Executive Director of Villa Charities here in Toronto. We are an umbrella organization that includes the Villa Colombo Services for Seniors, the VITA Community Living Services for the developmentally handicapped, the Columbus Centre and the J.D. Carrier Art Gallery, as well as Caboto Terrace and Casa Del Zotto apartments for seniors.

10845 Our mission statement at Villa Charities is:

"To develop, administer and co-ordinate projects in the social, cultural and recreational fields which enrich and enhance quality of life and honour Italian heritage."

10846 We serve directly through all of these operations approximately 20,000 people per year and indirectly many, many others. We employ over 600 fulltime equivalents and come with large budgets. But we are not interested in that.

10847 Villa Charities was moulded into an organization influenced by the customs of a dynamic Italian culture. What began as an effort to create a home for seniors in 1971 has evolved into a vibrant organization designed to meet the needs of an ever-growing multicultural community in the Greater Toronto Area.

10848 In addition to providing culturally sensitive care for the elderly, along the same lines as the Yee Hong Foundation that spoke earlier, the Villa Charities family of organizations is committed to assisting individuals with developmental disabilities and has a mandate of encouraging community participation through fitness, culture and the arts.

10849 Experience has taught us the value of integrating all forms of social and artistic expression into a multicultural community setting.

10850 There is a big motto on the wall of the hall at Columbus Centre: This centre is dedicated to spirit of multiculturalism.

10851 The artistic expression and the importance of cross-cultural community experiences in helping to shape and share -- and I want to underline "share" -- our own cultural identity.

10852 This is fundamental to the Canadian cultural experience -- the opportunity not only to celebrate the sense of family within the Italian community, but to enlarge that family, to welcome and interact with other cultural families, to actively experience and give full expression to our humanity.

10853 CHIN Radio has been very supportive to the Villa Charities since our early beginnings in helping us to reach the Italian community and to provide multicultural leadership.

10854 Over the past 36 years, CHIN Radio has understood multiculturalism well. Johnny Lombardi is an enduring mentor to me and to us all in this regard.

10855 Nobody understood as well as Johnny the importance, not only of cultural expression, but the value of cross-cultural experiences as a unique part of that cultural expression.

10856 And just as Villa Charities have evolved, so too we want to support and endorse the evolution of CHIN Radio family on the new frequency. Its FM 101.3 application is an important step in CHIN's evolution.

10857 It will broaden the reach of ethnic radio broadcasting into new and underserved communities such as the vibrant Korean, Vietnamese, and Filipino communities in Toronto, all of which live and interact, intermingle on a daily basis with what is know as the Italian community.

10858 It will expand services to the ever- growing population such as the Russian community and the Mandarin-speaking Chinese community.

10859 It will help to better reflect and serve the diverse cultures in the Caribbean community, the Spanish-speaking community, the Arabic community and the South Asian community.

10860 It will provide a new and exiting platform for cross-cultural programming, giving full expression to Canada's multicultural heritage.

10861 We applaud CHIN's sensitivity to all cultural communities in Toronto, its responsiveness in addressing underserved third-language populations, its bold vision in promoting and supporting cross-cultural communications.

10862 We also commend CHIN's increased Canadian content commitments and its continued stalwart support to young Canadian ethnic talent development. This is important to encouraging young people to participate in, and to support, the continued growth and development of their cultural communities.

10863 We wholeheartedly support and endorse CHIN's cross-cultural vision to launch new cross-cultural radio programming and to develop a cross-cultural community web portal and Internet radio station, FM 101.3.

10864 This is precisely what is needed to encourage young people to take a leadership role in the cultural community and to ensure the future vibrancy of ethnocultural radio broadcasting in Canada.

10865 Ladies and gentlemen, I am sure that it will come as no surprise to you when I say that ethnic broadcasting is a multidimensional medium. Ethnic radio programming needs to respond to the new realities of the information age just like any other medium.

10866 CHIN's radio application will help us to bring ethnic radio more fully into the information age. Even more impressive, CHIN will take us closer to the information age in the many languages used in Canada.

10867 In closing, I want to emphasize that the Italian community cannot afford a reduction of services to immigrant populations.

10868 We have benefited from it. We want to share that benefit. It makes us all better Canadians. CHIN needs to have either expanded FM 101.3 proposal or to maintain current broadcast service over the AM 1540 with its lower FM repeater converted to FM 91.9.

10869 We need to keep our service capacity to the Italian community intact or improve upon it, as called for in the FM 101.3 application, because without this, the service to the Italian community will be much diminished.

10870 This would mean that the Commission would be taking away vital services linking the Italian community to information, news, sports, music, community events, which they can now only get through CHIN Radio and the FM repeater.

10871 My own preference is for CHIN Radio's FM 101.3 application as it will take all of the cultures of Canada, make all the cultures of Canada accessible, extending our sense of family. It will bring the information age to ethnic radio broadcasting in Canada, involving and fostering young talent all the way.

10872 These are the main reasons why I appear before you here today to personally support and to share my inspiration for CHIN's FM 101.3 application.

10873 Grazie. Thank you.

10874 THE CHAIRPERSON: Grazie to you, Mr. Di Iulio.

10875 Go ahead.

INTERVENTION

10876 MR. MASTOVAKOS: Distinguished Members of the Commission, good morning.

10877 My name is Tassos Mastovakos -- or you can call me Tom for short. I am a proud Canadian of Hellenic descent, and I am also the coordinator of voluntarism for the 28th Olympiad in Athens, Greece.

10878 I am here in support of CHIN's application for an FM repeater or to convert AM 1540 to FM 101.3 on behalf of the Greek community of Metropolitan Toronto. I sit on the board and I am the President of the Department of Public Relations.

10879 The Greek community is a charitable organization which has been operating since 1911. In other words, we are celebrating over 90 years.

10880 We currently represent 117,000 Hellenes from Greece and Cyprus here in the city.

10881 Since our population is rather large and our programming is on AM 1540, we have special broadcasting needs. The repeater FM 101.3 was a very important addition to our broadcasting coverage to our Greek communities.

10882 Our evening programming suffered greatly without the repeater service and we would be devastated if we were left with the low power AM 1540 nighttime service to our communities through the loss of an FM repeater.

10883 We trust that the Commission is concerned about this issue, and contemplating CHIN's application for either the repeater or converting AM 1540 to FM 101.3 from the perspective of improving and enhancing, not diminishing, the capacity of ethnic radio broadcasting in Toronto.

10884 We have made this issue our social cause because CHIN has been such a vital link in communicating directly to our community.

10885 The Greek community is a very active one. We provide a lot of specialized services to the elderly, youth and women through our social services program. Also the United Way takes part and former mayor of Toronto Barbara Hall also sits on that council.

10886 We have about 110 education programs across Toronto in the Greek language, history and culture. The programs reach about 1,500 students every year and they are supplemented by financial support that we provide to three-year Greek language and culture programs offered by the University of Toronto and York University that will have very shortly a Chair in Hellenic studies.

10887 The Greek community played a very large role in that and CHIN had a large part to do with that, but we will talk about that in just a minute.

10888 The Greek community owns and operates several churches, including Saint Demetrios, St. Irene Chrisovalantou, the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, and St. John's.

10889 We organize a host of charitable, social, sports and cultural activities throughout Toronto. The Greek community dance groups perform at the CHIN International Picnic each year and we have a world-renown theatrical group that has won first place in the diaspora.

10890 Today I am here to stress and emphasize that we could not manage all of these programs without CHIN. One big reason is that we function on donations and we are largely a volunteer organization, not for profit charitable. CHIN is our, if you will, conduit to communicate effectively to our potential volunteers and program participants.

10891 Now, the Greek community has put in front of it a very large project and CHIN has a very large part in that, and that's the new Hellenic Cultural Centre, which reinforces the great need for communication over strong airwaves of FM 101.3 as the Greek community of Metropolitan Toronto will build Toronto's Acropolis to cost $10 million in Scarborough.

10892 We could not ask for a better media partner than CHIN has been in helping us to publicize and promote our heavy programming schedule for Hellenes in Toronto.

10893 This is critical because the successful fulfilment of our goals depends so much on the generosity of the Greek community at large and they have shown that again and again.

10894 We need the unreserved support of tends of thousands of volunteers who participate in our events and put in many hours on a daily basis on behalf of the Greek community.

10895 Allow me to stress another event that CHIN has played a very dynamic role in. The "Taste of the Danforth", where over one million people come and taste Danforth. CHIN has played a remarkable role in that and we have seen the results and we want to make that more dynamic and to facilitate that communication to the Greek community at large.

10896 I am also here simply to express our enthusiasm for the CHIN applications. We view the applications as being very innovative, while at the same time building in a very intelligent and responsible way on the existing ethnocultural programming services which CHIN has nurtured so lovingly for almost 40 years.

10897 I remember being a small little boy and listening to CHIN Radio and that's why I learned how to speak the Greek language through Greek songs, through Greek history, through Greek culture. From 9:00 to 11:00, from 100.7 with Mr. Aristivis Malakos(ph) working in conjunction with Mr. Lombardi I learned Greek.

10898 We have a lot of young talent in our midst, especially in music since, as you know, Hellenes have a very strong musical tradition. We are therefore very pleased that this talent can be supported and showcased through CHIN's Ethnic Canadian Talent Development Program, which is a very dynamic program.

10899 We are also very supportive of CHIN's Internet initiatives, as so much of our programming is focused on education. We believe that CHIN's FM 101.3 Internet radio and community portal proposal can bring a new dimension to our education programs.

10900 Of course, over the Internet we have people worldwide listening to us. So on FM 101.3 I am sure we will have an extensive audience.

10901 Ladies and gentlemen of the Commission, let me close by saying that based on our experience in the Greek community, ethnic radio programming is alive and well. It is becoming more vibrant and more interesting every year.

10902 There is an energy and a vitality within ethnocultural communities that is part of the very heart and soul of Toronto. Hellenes contribute greatly to this vibrancy, which was unleashed by the Lombardi family and CHIN Radio.

10903 CHIN has helped to bring to life the full pageantry of our cultural communities.

10904 CHIN has helped cultural communities to establish their social identities and make significant contributions to their quality of life in the city.

10905 CHIN has helped cultural communities to enrich the lives of all who live and visit Toronto.

10906 Help us to continue these very positive trends into the future. Allow Hellenes and other cultural groups to be the best that they can be. Foster and nurture the continued evolution and growth of ethnic broadcasting in Toronto by supporting CHIN's vision and approve either their application for an FM repeater or to convert AM 1540 to FM 101.3.

10907 I emphasize this request on behalf of the Greek community of Metropolitan Toronto and on behalf of 170,000 Canadians of Hellenic descent.

10908 Thank you.

10909 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Mastovakos and Mr. Di Iulio. Both your presentations will be transcribed and will form part of the record, as well as your written ones.

10910 We thank you again.

10911 Mr. Secretary, please.

10912 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10913 We will now hear from Messrs. Mike Colle and Joe Pantalone.

INTERVENTION

10914 MR. COLLE: Good morning. My name is Michael Colle. I am a Member of Provincial Parliament representing the riding of Eglinton-Lawrence, which is just south of here and goes all the way east to Yonge Street. I represent over 110,000 people, basically the size of Prince Edward Island, but a little different in terms of our diverse make-up. We are, in Eglinton-Lawrence, made up of over 60 different language groups. Every language conceivable is spoken, written in the streets of Eglinton-Lawrence, from Punjabi to Pakistani, Greek, Portuguese, it just goes on and on, and changing every day.

10915 As you know, in Toronto we open our doors to 50,000 new immigrants every year. Many of them come into the heart of the city.

10916 I am here today to speak on their behalf in support of CHIN's application for 101.3 on the FM dial, because really it is not a matter of just a cultural need, it is really an essential civic need.

10917 People in my community have needs and challenges they meet every day, whether they be educational, whether they be legal, whether they be social or governance needs, and CHIN is a dramatic link to them, because they can easily be lost in a megalopolis that really now is over four million people.

10918 Sometimes our so-called mainstream is too, I think at times, macro in outlook that many of our new multicultural diverse ethnic groups sort of cannot feel comfortable with. CHIN has been their comfort, it has been their agent for information, for advocacy.

10919 I think sometimes we look at CHIN Radio and say: Well, it is one of those ethnic radio stations. I, as an immigrant myself who came to Canada in 1950 at five years of age, I used CHIN and CHIN was able to ensure that whether we were promoting charitable events, athletic events, cultural events, educational events, law and order events, governance issues, political issues, CHIN was always there.

10920 So it is not only asked to be a talk radio station, like some are, or just a news station or just a music station, CHIN basically is the real renaissance station. It does everything.

10921 It is 24/7 trying to do everything for so many groups and so many integral, as I say, diverse parts of our community. I don't know how they accomplish all this, whether it is raising money for Sick Children's Hospital in their telethon, or whether it is providing opportunities for discourse on political issues, or whether it is basically just providing some cultural enrichment and linguistic enrichment. This goes on, again, daily. It is not a part-time thing.

10922 So I really commend the CRTC, and I guess the whole vision of the CRTC, in allowing and encouraging this type of broadcasting to take place in our city. It is one of the unheralded fabrics, unheralded achievements of our city and our country that we have basically allowed people to come, as I say, from all over the world, bringing what is best from all over the world, and they have felt at home here.

10923 It hasn't happened by accident. People think these things happen automatically. Well, it hasn't. It has been CHIN Radio and John Lombardi who have rolled up their sleeves, in conjunction with all these new groups and the established groups like the Greek community, the Italian community, and now all the new groups that are coming in from Somali, et cetera, they have rolled up their sleeves and created this dynamism that makes people feel not only part of Toronto but part of this amazing success story called Canada, which is really a model for the whole world.

10924 Nobody else has done this. Where else do we see this type of blending, interaction, harmony. Sure we have our controversies at times, but that is all part of the synergy, the energy that exists that makes this one of the most dynamic cities certainly anywhere in the world.

10925 I think one of the reasons we have been successful at this is, if you look at what CHIN has been doing day-in/day-out, whether it be in the studio or out, you know, in the community, on the streets, it is there for us.

10926 I, as an elected official, need that link because, believe me, I have a great deal of difficulty sometimes reaching my community through the so-called major media. They don't have time, it seems, for the newest issue that may be facing the Punjabi community or the Sikhs in my community. But CHIN will say, "Yes, okay. Do you need some time? Or "We can perhaps do something for them", or "They need an hour, we will give them an hour." That happens, and it happens in a way that I think is positive.

10927 It is so refreshing for people to say "Well, yes, I got a chance to go on CHIN and they listened. I got to talk on that issue."

10928 So it is, again, not a supplementary activity, it is not an add-on, it is an essential part of the fabric of this great city and I hope this evolution and this granting of this licence takes place because it will just make things better for the people who need this link that they have through CHIN.

10929 Thank you very much.

10930 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Colle.

10931 MR. PANTALONE: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, good morning. I am Joe Pantalone and I guess I would like to bring the perspective of a City of Toronto Councillor, previously Metro Councillor for over 20 years in Toronto.

10932 I think we are all engaged in a process of city-building, community-building, which is more than just streets and houses and highways, and so forth. It is also social integration and building.

10933 The Toronto area is fascinating in that sense because it is the second fastest growing region in North America, after Los Angeles. It is something like 100,000 additional people moved into the Toronto area in the last few years.

10934 That poses interesting questions in terms of how do we make sure that the wealth, the success which Toronto and Canada represents continues on, given this tremendous change which is occurring in our midst.

10935 I would like to suggest to you that the best way of achieving that is by allowing existing organisations to grow and bring the wealth, the resources, the expertise that they have, as we would expect our transit system, as we would expect our social service system to grow to equally be able to bring the resources and experience which they have gained over the years.

10936 The Toronto are is also interesting, because almost half of the people who come every year are immigrants, as we have been talking about.

10937 So I, too, like Mr. Colle, would like to congratulate the Commission for providing this additional service, full service into the new station, and I would like to suggest again that CHIN should be allowed to grow because it is best positioned to do that.

10938 The new service for 101.3 FM, I would like to bring to your attention my knowledge over the last 20 years in terms of CHIN itself. It is fair enough to say that the CHIN Radio family, led by the Lombardi family since the 1960s, the early 1960s, have given true meaning to the sense of multiculturalism. Often these things are words, but they basically allow the means of expression in language and culture through their broadcasting, through their efforts. They have been pervasive, if you will, in a positive manner in the Toronto area.

10939 For example, you cannot go anywhere within finding them, as one should. For example, they provided, this past year, the CHIN International Picnic at Exhibition Place -- I happen to be the Chairman of Exhibition Place for the previous seven years -- and it was basically the only Canada Day weekend event, for a number of reasons, including a strike which was occurring in our city. It is truly international and it is truly very successful and truly inclusive.

10940 They boost neighbourhoods through "Taste of Little Italy", "Taste of the Danforth", and so forth. They are social gatherings, because at the end of the day every ethnic community is composed of the social element in terms of reporting on what goes on and giving advertising -- free advertising, as you heard. So they really are involved in a process of city-building.

10941 I would like to suggest that multiculturalism in the Toronto area without CHIN really simply is not a match and, therefore, we should be bringing that into focus.

10942 As an elected member of this community I know that very well, because Toronto has its motto as the City of Toronto "diversity our strength"; Tourism Toronto, which I happen to be on the executive, "the world within a city". These are the kind of elements which I think we must emphasize.

10943 I think CHIN Radio is best positioned to continue providing that integration for which we are a model to the world. Interestingly enough, the City of Toronto is exploring at the moment a twinning with the City of Milan, which is corresponding to its function to Italy as Toronto is to Canada in terms of economic powerhouse, and so forth.

10944 Italy is experiencing immigration in significant numbers for a change. Being of Italian origin myself, usually we provided people to emigrate rather than immigrate. Therefore, they are having tremendous challenges in terms of how do we integrate people from all over the world into Italy. One of the things we are going to be exploring is: How do we provide the Toronto experience, if you will the CHIN experience, to the authorities in Milan to ensure that that integration is successful, as it has been in Toronto and the rest of the country.

10945 So I would like to suggest that CHIN, by allowing it to grow, it becomes a model not only for Toronto, Ontario, Canada, but also for the world as a whole.

10946 I think I would like to conclude by simply saying that obviously it is not a matter of allowing CHIN to maintain its present level of service with a repeater, a transmission issue, but it is a matter of allowing it to go to the next stage by growing, by allowing it to provide the services of 101.3 FM as well.

10947 I know that CHIN can do it. I know that the people in Toronto have a great deal of confidence in CHIN doing it and I'm sure it would be a success. That is why I urge you to provide a service through CHIN.

10948 Thank you.

10949 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Both of your presentations will be added to the record.

10950 MR. COLLE: Thank you.

10951 MR. PANTALONE: Thank you.

10952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10953 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10954 We will now hear from the Canadian Music Week, Mr. Neill Dixon.

--- Pause

10955 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

INTERVENTION

10956 MR. DIXON: Good morning, Madam Chair and distinguished Commissioners.

10957 I am very pleased to be here today on behalf of CHIN radio application. I am speaking on behalf of Canadian Music Week.

10958 As a bit of background, my name is Neill Dixon. I am the President of Chart Toppers, a wholly owned Canadian music promotion company that is one of Canada's most successful and passionate promoters of homegrown Canadian talent.

10959 For the past 25 years Chart Toppers has been instrumental in shaping many of the building blocks in the Canadian star system, from the Juno Awards to the Canadian Music Week and the Canadian Music Industry Awards.

10960 Over those 25 years Chart Toppers has worked closely with the radio industry to develop and produce homegrown talent searches and local radio award shows that recognize the best in emerging Canadian talent.

10961 Many of today's biggest stars got their first break at those events. From regional competitions to national battle of the bands, Chart Toppers has organized countrywide events such as the Great Canadian Homegrown Talent Search, Rock Showdown, the National Rock Awards, the Canadian Radio Music Awards, Xtreme Band Slam and, most recently, The Canadian Independent Music Awards, to name just a few.

10962 In recent years we have seen an evolution of the mainstream market to embrace new ethnic/worldbeat styles. Our increasingly multicultural society is creating an appetite for a richer diversity of sounds and artists and their recording products. The leadership role CHIN has displayed in developing these artists can't be overstated.

10963 Voted "Multicultural Station of the Year" over the past few years by the Canadian music industry acknowledges CHIN's achievements as a tireless supporter of multicultural talent.

10964 CHIN has been proactive in bringing multicultural artists to the forefront at Canadian Music Week, an annual event devoted to assisting and developing new Canadian talent.

10965 The CHIN stations, AM 1540 and FM 100.7, support ethnic showcases with a $10,000 contribution to the Canadian Music Week Festival.

10966 CHIN was instrumental in helping develop the Canadian Independent Music Award's "World Music" category, a celebration of excellence in ethnic Canadian sound recordings.

10967 CHIN's new applications propose additional contributions to Ethnic Canadian Talent Development initiatives:

10968 $20,000 to a Multicultural Music and Song Competition which will be directed to two competitions: (1) to the South Asian artists; and (2) to the many other ethnic groups CHIN proposes to serve.

10969 As well, they have contributed $17,000 to a Multilingual Music Initiative, and $10,000 to FACTOR to support the production of ethnic Canadian sound recordings.

10970 As one of the best cities in the world, Toronto's multiculturalism is one of its finest selling points. Celebrating this diversity through music and increasing significantly the visibility of underrepresented minorities in the Canadian sound recording industry is a priority at Canadian Music Week.

10971 CHIN Radio has always been a huge supporter in assisting us in reaching Toronto's many ethnic communities. With over 35 years of broadcasting experience, expansion of CHIN's communications to 24 distinct linguistic and cultural groups in the GTA can only facilitate even greater celebration and understanding of the gathering of multicultural societies.

10972 CHIN's reach to the many ethnic societies doesn't end at the radio dial but continues to the streets, supporting many live events and supportive programs that highlight new and established artists.

10973 I thank you for this opportunity to express our support for CHIN.

10974 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Dixon.

10975 Your support is clear, and we have no questions.

10976 Your presentation will be added to the record.

10977 MR. DIXON: Thank you.

10978 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

10979 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10980 We will now hear from Bharathi Kala Manram, Canada.

10981 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

INTERVENTION

10982 MR. SUBRAMANIAN: First of all, let me wish everybody a good morning.

10983 I have a submission to you, and copies are available to you already.

10984 Although it is a written submission, I may expand on certain items here and there, not much. Please permit me to do that.

10985 Dear Madam Chair and Commissioners of the CRTC who are conducting these hearings, by way of introduction, my name is Narain R. Subramanian. I am a Canadian citizen living in Toronto since April 1976.

10986 I was a provincial civil servant for 20 years and am now retired.

10987 During the past 20-plus years I had the good fortune of associating with various social, cultural and religious organizations of repute in Toronto and vicinity. I have also served on one or two mainstream art/cultural organizations in Toronto, such as the A Space Gallery. Starting with fundraising for the United Way and the Canadian Cancer Society in 1982, my 20-plus years of community work has been totally voluntary.

10988 The list of organizations and positions currently held include:

10989 (1) Bharathi Kala Manram, Canada, a premier cultural organization of Toronto established in 1969. I am the President since 1995.

10990 In the year 2000 the Government of Ontario awarded the Most Outstanding Achievement Award to this organization. We have an endowment at York University for the study of Indian classical music for two awards, each of $750, given to students enrolled in musical studies.

10991 For the last three years all these awards have gone to not Indians or Indian-origin people but mostly European-origin people, because that is the trend that we see in terms of music development.

10992 (2) Hindu Temple Society of Canada -- one of the largest traditional Hindu temples of North America, established in 1974. Trustee since 1989 and was secretary for four years.

10993 (3) Canadian Council of Hindus -- an umbrella organization for almost all Hindu temples of Toronto and vicinity. Was elected secretary in 2001.

10994 (4) Panorama India -- an umbrella organization for most of the Indo-Canadian cultural groups of the Greater Toronto Authority. I am the current co-chair.

10995 Here it is necessary to indicate all contributions to the mainstream Canadian society. Panorama India contributed $100,000 to establish the South Asian wing at ROM, the Royal Ontario Museum, in 1999.

10996 This year we donated $10,000 to the William Osler Health Foundation at Brampton.

10997 I am indicating this not to gloat about myself but to indicate my type of interaction with the communities that are part of this mosaic.

10998 During these years of community service I have been able to interact with people from a variety of communities and understand the differences and similarities in terms of language, art, culture, faith and other human aspects.

10999 Before I deal directly with the issues concerning the CHIN-ATN Radio FM 101.3, I wish to commend the CRTC for conducting these hearings in the most open, equitable and democratic fashion. It is my belief that the outcome of these deliberations will lead to satisfying and fulfilling social benefits to the largest number of Canadians living in Toronto and vicinity.

11000 I would like to touch upon and reflect on some of the issues raised during the hearings since the 17th. I want to bring about some information change.

11001 The myth about Hindustani language. I think it was expressed here some time back about the Hindustani language.

11002 There is no such language in India called Hindustani. You are generally termed, because you come from Hindustan, Hindustani. But there is no such language to name it.

11003 Of course there is Hindi, Urdu, Tamil, Punjabi, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam, Oriya, Bengali, and so many other languages. English is known to most people in the cities.

11004 India comprises of 29 states -- some of them are bigger than Germany and other European countries -- and six union territories. India is a multilingual society with 18 principal languages. Hindi-speaking people cover only 38 per cent of the population.

11005 Personally speaking, I am very fluent in Hindi, Tamil and Malayalam. I have a very good working knowledge of Murata, Gujurati and Telugu, plus English of course.

11006 The Indian and Indo-Canadian population of Toronto bears a lot of similarity and relationship to the above-mentioned population and language split. Just as in India, there is a great need to serve and protect the minority languages, never mind how small they are. The Canadian Charter of Rights and the multicultural policy of the Canadian government have enshrined those rights.

11007 Polices and regulations enacted by the Canadian government and its various agencies, including this CRTC, when they deal with social and cultural aspects of the Canadian people -- I include everybody there -- cannot ignore the minorities' entitlements and rights to preserve their language and culture.

11008 Language, as we know it all over the world and for all the time this world of ours has been in existence, is the heartbeat and soul of culture. There can be no culture where there is no language!

11009 Cultures differ from region to region, country to country, and so on, because they are nurtured by the languages spoken in those places. People of all languages and cultures have a right to live and grow. That is a basic human right.

11010 Radio and television service providers should consider it their duty to serve all communities, small or large, and notwithstanding economic considerations. Serving certain language and cultural groups on a selective and economy-based way should not be an option to the radio and TV station operators.

11011 All the above information focuses on one thing: that is, who among the many applicants for radio licence has the potential to serve the largest number of language and cultural groups that live in Toronto?

11012 It is my considered view that the CHIN-ATN combination is the only one that can fulfil these obligations to the people and also CRTC. Meritwise, the CHIN-ATN set-up stands along in terms of their wider knowledge base arising out of many years of being in the field, their expertise, their resources to do the all-inclusive programs that are needed, and their resolve to get it done.

11013 I have personally known ATN and Shan Chandrasekar from the early 1970s. I have been privy to their slow but steady rise in the television field over these years. I am also privy to the high satisfaction levels of service rendered by them to the South Asian population of Toronto and vicinity.

11014 ATN's knowledge of the needs of South Asian communities living in Toronto, especially the minority language groups, will bear witness to their abilities and commitment to serve them well through the CHIN-ATN combination of radio service over FM 101.3.

11015 In conclusion, I would like to say this.

11016 It is to be clearly understood that, for all intents and purposes, our support for the CHIN-ATN Radio's FM 101.3 radio service proposal is solely on account of our trust and faith built over the years in the credibility and resourcefulness of the Asian Television Network and its management to deliver the promised service in association with CHIN.

11017 It is our wish and it is necessary, therefore, for the CRTC to ensure that this venture be properly and adequately mandated.

11018 Thank you.

1140

11019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Subramanian.

11020 Your presentation will be transcribed and added to the record and added to your written presentation.

11021 Thank you for coming to visit with us.

11022 MR. SUBRAMANIAN: Thank you.

11023 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11024 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11025 We will now hear as a panel Nos. 68 and 59, Roksolana Tchotchieva and Umberto Manca.

11026 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

11027 MS TCHOTCHIEVA: Good day, Members of the Commission. My name is Roksolana Tchotchieva.

11028 I am a producer and the host of CHIN's AM 1540 Russian daily program "Russian Radio Waves" which started broadcasting on June 4, 2001.

11029 I am proud to be a part of such high quality ethnic programming that CHIN has been pioneering for 36 years.

11030 Prior to coming to CHIN, I was the host and journalist of the weekly TV program "Morning Waves" on CFMT.

11031 Before coming to Canada, I worked for four years on the Russian National Channel in Moscow as a director and journalist.

11032 Today, I want to tell you a little bit about the Russian cultural experience in Canada. What it means to me personally to be a Russian broadcaster working in Canada, what I think it means to my community to have access to Russian programming, and why it is so absolutely important for Canada to continue to develop ethnic programming.

11033 We Russians make up the newest wave of cultural diasporas to come to Canada. "Russians Radio Waves" is little more than one year and three months old, yet within this short period of time our program has become a very important part of Russian community life in Toronto.

11034 Why is this? Let us go back to recent Russian history for the answer.

11035 Canadians are certainly well aware that 15 years ago the former USSR disintegrated as a country. The communist regime collapsed and the Republic balkanized into various regional states. Now we can see many different and completely independent countries on the map.

11036 Today, if you are a Russian citizen and you are going to visit your relatives in Georgia or Estonia, you need a visa. But there is something which is still binding and unifying old people in these countries -- it is our shared heritage and the Russian language.

11037 Our common language helps people communicate on many levels in Russia and across all parts of the former USSR. Most importantly, it is the language that unites the diasporas, linking all immigrants in Canada who are from all regions of the former USSR.

11038 Wherever you may come from -- Armenia, Uzbekistan, Latvia, Belarus, Moldova or Azerbaidzan -- we all speak Russian. No matter what our cultural or religious affiliations, we all speak Russian.

11039 Consequently, the listeners of "Russian Radio Waves" represent a diverse cultural mosaic of some 200,000 inhabitants in the Greater Toronto Area.

11040 As a Russian broadcaster working in Canada, I feel privileged to be doing this kind of work.

11041 At present our program is 30 minutes long and provides the latest news from Russia, interviews with local community leaders, political figures, representatives of religious institutions, and even famous artists.

11042 We are also publicizing community events within the Greater Toronto Area, an important part of creating a social gathering point for Russians to share their common heritage and an opportunity to make a positive contribution to the community.

11043 CHIN's application for continued use of an FM repeater for AM 1540 is so important to continue to fulfil this growing need. Without the repeater we will in fact lose our Russian programming.

11044 This would be tragic not only for the new Russian diasporas, but to other cultural communities who are recently arrived to build a new life in Canada.

11045 CHIN must continue to have the much needed capacity to continue to serve Canada's dynamic and evolving ethnocultural heritage.

11046 CHIN's new application proposes five hours per week of Russian programming for FM 101.3 in addition to the current 2.5 hours on CHIN AM 1540. A population of 200,000 people can be better served by this increased time.

11047 It also provides us with new programming blocks to better present Canadian news, which is limited due to the lack of programming time.

11048 I am very proud to be a part of the CHIN vision for the future of ethnocultural broadcasting in Canada. The Lombardi family and the dedicated producers that make up CHIN Radio have been committed to the future growth and development of ethnic broadcasting in Canada.

11049 The CHIN vision continues to be inclusive after all these years. It also continues to be extremely relevant to ethnic communities because it correctly anticipates the increased need to build ethnocultural broadcasting.

11050 This need has been recognized by the CRTC in television with the recent launch of the second Rogers station in Toronto devoted to serving ethnic communities. Radio requires the same expansion.

11051 As a working associate producer with CHIN Radio, I can say that I fully support their efforts in applying for a new service that will greatly increase the amount of Russian programming and service to my community.

11052 I also urge you to see the importance of "Russian Radio Waves" on AM 1540, which without a repeater would not be easily heard and enjoyed by my community. I am afraid that it might not survive on AM 1540 alone.

11053 Thank you very much.

11054 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Tchotchieva.

11055 We will now hear you.

INTERVENTION

11056 MR. MANCA: Bonjour. My name is Umberto Manca, but the Italian community calls me Umberto CHIN because I have been working at CHIN Radio for more than 33 years as the Vice-President of Italian Programming and Copy Department Manager, and host of the Italian talk show.

11057 I was born and raised in Milano, a large industrial city in northern Italy. I am now a proud Canadian by choice, but passionately Italian.

11058 I love my language and my culture as much as I love Canada with its mosaic of different cultures. I am fully integrated in this country, integrated but not assimilated.

11059 Working at CHIN gives me the opportunity to help my fellow immigrants to better understand Canada and to adapt to the new environment.

11060 CHIN programs touch people at a very emotional level to restore their wellbeing, their sense of the familia. CHIN Radio music, songs, news, sports, talk shows, concerts all give them a wonderful sense of stability, emotional stability. It helps them to appreciate their new life and their new homeland.

11061 For more than three decades, CHIN programs have functioned as bridge between Canadian society and the emerging cultural communities. CHIN helps newly arrived immigrants and the generations that follow to integrate into Canadian society without losing their identity, their culture or their language. We help them to find a homeland in a new country.

11062 I have been with CHIN almost since the beginning, and at times I have seen reach its goals without diminishing its relevance or significance. In the '70s and the '80s, the major goal was to help immigrants to localizing to Canadian society. It meant helping them to understand the laws and the customs of this country in a language they already understood.

11063 Today, our role is still the same, but the goal has shifted to other challenging concerns such as the search of a meaning in life and the ethnic turmoil and strife that is creeping the world.

11064 CHIN has a very critical role to play here in Canada, to calm cultural intolerance and to generate cross-cultural dialogue.

11065 We serve, yes, the poor, disoriented newly arrived immigrants to Canada, but we also now serve immigrant populations that have been Canadians for two, three and four decades and who, during the time, have become middle-class Canadians raising middle-class families.

11066 These people are very concerned about world affairs. They see growing strife in their homeland and it deeply concerns them. They look to CHIN to provide a vehicle of expression and of cross-cultural dialogue.

11067 Ladies and gentlemen, considering the vital role that CHIN plays in Toronto's cultural communities, I was shocked when I learned that without this licence CHIN's Italian programming is in jeopardy of losing one of the most crucial periods of the day, their wake up morning show Italian style.

11068 CHIN AM 1540 has always been a trouble frequency. In the morning the signal is guarded until sunrise. In the evening, our signal power is lowered at sunset. Our Chinese, Caribbean and other language programs are affected.

11069 Our unforgettable Mr. Johnny Lombardi was able to solve the problem with your kindness a few years ago with the FM 101.3 repeater. At the time, we at CHIN rejoiced at finally becoming a "normal" radio station, able to reach its listeners at all times over the broadcast day.

11070 The prospect of losing this repeater makes me feel culturally deprived of something essential to my emotional life, and I am positive that the same feeling would be shared by my fellow countrymen. They will be afraid that it could mean the beginning of a decline in the Italian cultural community since it would mean losing a meeting place to share our common identities.

11071 There are jobs that procure fame, jobs that give power, others give money. My job at CHIN gives me something money cannot buy, a feeling of being productive in a cultural sense, to be useful.

11072 When I close my office door, I know that we at CHIN have done something that has helped make life more meaningful to our listeners.

11073 In closing, but still I have a page and a half, I would like to share some of my personal cultural postcards with you, which demonstrate how close the immigrant experience still is to the Canadian identity.

11074 When I interviewed Pierre Elliott Trudeau, I wanted to know his position on the monarchy and I was afraid of a diplomatic answer. So I approached him saying, "Monsieur Trudeau, vive le président". He smiled at me and quickly replied, "A la prochaine fois".

11075 To this day, I don't know what his position was on the monarchy, but when I was on the air with the President of the Italian Republic, Silvio Berlusconi, I had to break for a commercial. I was afraid to interrupt him, but I asked him for forgiveness and a commercial went on the air.

11076 To my surprise, the Honourable Berlusconi at the end of the break complimented the owner of the advertised restaurant on the air and promised him a visit when in Toronto.

11077 Jean Chrétien and William Davies are very charming and easy to interview. Sophia Loren lives in a completely other world.

--- Laughter / Rires

11078 MR. MANCA: Gina Lollobrigida is very "antipatica", too prima donna like Julio Iglesias, but despite all these contacts with celebrities, my crowning achievements still when I was approached by an elderly lady at one of the many Italian functions who said, "Umberto, I listen to you every day, and I feel I am in my little town with my Mom and Dad".

11079 I feel so strongly about the issue related to the risk of losing something that the Italian community has already.

11080 I am compelled to also speak on behalf of communities who have been profoundly affected by an impediment to CHIN's signal in the loss of our repeater.

11081 I fully support and commend the application for a new FM 101.3 service for CHIN Radio to better serve those communities that are underserved and add new and diverse language and a CHIN 1540 repeater 91.1 to continue to serve our existing audience without the loss of signal.

11082 Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen, and if you desire to interview me, I shall be very pleased to be on the other side of the fence, if you have time.

11083 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will have to ask you what you think of the monarchy.

--- Laughter / Rires

11084 MR. MANCA: Thank you.

11085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Manca.

11086 Thank you, Ms Tchotchieva. Both your presentations will be added to the record.

11087 Thank you.

11088 We will now break for lunch. We will resume at 1:30.

11089 I would ask that all intervenors who want to appear register with us during the lunch break. We will terminate Phase III this afternoon. So intervenors must be here after lunch, and we will only begin Phase IV tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

11090 So we will see you back at 1:30. Nous reprendrons à 1 h 30.

--- Upon recesssing 1200 / Suspension à 1200

--- Upon resuming at 1335 / Reprise à 1335

11091 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. A l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

11092 Monsieur le secrétaire, s'il vous plaît.

11093 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11094 The next appearing interventions will be presented by Outreach International.

--- Pause

INTERVENTION

11095 MS SAVARI: Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Bridget Savari. I was born in Burma, now known as Mayamar. I am not Burmese, I am an East Indian.

11096 During the past 20 years in Canada, I have been very active in community and charitable organizations. Some of the community involvement include: committee member for 50th anniversary celebration of India's independence, board member for Masala, Mehndi and Masti Festivals at Harbour Front, and volunteer for Why Not Marathon in aid of handicap.

11097 I have also been involved as board member of South Asian Community Council, for Heart and Stroke Foundation, GEMS of Hope, Terry Fox Run, board member for Outreach International.

11098 Today I am appearing in front of you to support the application of CHIN/ATN for a new multicultural radio station licence. My support is not just as a representative for Outreach International, but also as a concerned citizen.

11099 Outreach International is a charitable organization involved in assisting the underprivileged and poor in the developing countries by way of providing education, training and health care.

11100 The South Asians in Canada come from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Mayamar, Mauritius, Trinidad, Jamaica, Guyana, Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria, South Africa, to name a few.

11101 I am glad to have attended the presentation of CHIN/ATN application for a new multicultural radio station to CRTC.

11102 It is great that CHIN/ATN application outlines 48 hours of weekly programming for South Asian community during regulated broadcast day. In addition, there may be more South Asian language programming available form midnight to 6:00 a.m.

11103 Further, South Asian programming will be produced and broadcast in a variety of South Asian languages. Currently, only very large ethnic groups within our community have limited radio programming. I strongly believe it is time that we have programming for a number of minor ethnic groups in their mother tongue.

11104 As the Commission is well aware, ATN is a household name in GTA among South Asian community. For the past 28 years, ATN has served the community with high quality TV programming. We are certain that ATN will continue to provide excellent high quality programming over the air.

11105 Our South Asian community is very appreciative of ATN's contribution to our community. ATN is always ready to provide extensive coverage and promotion to our community events. I have been personally involved in a number of community events where ATN is the only media company which has given us extreme coverage at no cost. Without ATN's generosity, our community events would not be successful.

11106 We also know that CHIN is also committed to community causes such as CHIN Picnic, sponsoring musical events, et cetera. Therefore, we are confident the combination of CHIN and ATN will be extremely beneficial to all ethnic groups.

11107 We are very happy that CHIN/ATN have committed to produce most of programs locally. This will encourage new and budding talent in our communities and will create additional employment and opportunities.

11108 ATN is well-seasoned in providing quality programming to our community in several South Asian languages. CHIN also produces and broadcasts excellent programs in a variety of languages. We welcome this CHIN/ATN initiative, as we feel that only established organizations such as CHIN/ATN will be able to balance the diverse interests of our community and look after the interests of the smaller linguistic groups without religious, language and political bias.

11109 We are extremely happy that ATN and CHIN are combining their expertise and knowledge. In a diverse community such as ours, it is very important that the radio station be handled by the professional and experienced organizations such as ATN and CHIN. Their combined strength will no doubt be a great asset, not only to the South Asian community but also the multicultural community as a whole.

11110 I am delighted to know that CHIN/ATN outlined in their presentation the urgent need for programming in health, education and human rights. It also outlined that they will cater to the needs of youth, seniors and women. Since my profession is working with seniors, I am well aware of their interests and concerns.

11111 Radio is also a medium enjoyed by the senior citizens of all communities. There is a large growing senior citizen population in the South Asian community. They would welcome a radio station that provides quality programming of specific interest to the South Asian seniors in a variety of their languages. Only well-seasoned and experienced multimedia companies like CHIN and ATN can provide such diverse programs which can meet the needs of different segments of our population.

11112 In conclusion, I would like to bring the following points to your attention:

11113 First, both CHIN and ATN are very community conscious organizations.

11114 Second, both CHIN and ATN are well-seasoned multimedia corporations, with decades of experience in broadcast industry.

11115 Third, both CHIN and ATN are well experienced in producing programs in multitude of languages.

11116 Fourth, both provide quality programming.

11117 Fifth, both are committed to produce programs locally, therefore encouraging new talent and creating opportunities for various ethnic groups.

11118 Sixth, both CHIN and ATN are committed to provide health, educational and social programs.

11119 Seventh, both are committed to provide programming for various age groups.

11120 Eighth, committed to provide programming for a number of very small ethnic groups.

11121 We hope the Commission will take the above factors in consideration for selecting and awarding radio licence to CHIN/ATN.

11122 Thank you.

11123 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Savari, for your presentation on behalf of Outreach. It will be transcribed and will form part of the record, along with your written intervention.

11124 We thank you for taking the time to come and visit with us.

11125 MS SAVARI: Thank you.

11126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11127 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11128 We will now hear from the Punjab Star Incorporated.

--- Pause

11129 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

INTERVENTION

11130 MR. RAI: Dear Madam Chair and respective Panel of Commissioners, good afternoon.

11131 My name is Amarjit Rai and beside me my associate Amarjit Sangha.

11132 I am supporting the application of allowing the CHIN/ATN's new 101.3 FM radio frequency for the South Asian radio programming.

11133 I have been in the broadcasting field from early college days in India. I did my Masters Degree in Punjabi literature and was involved in stage performances. I did Punjabi folk music and performed folk art for 10 years. I recorded more than 60 albums with my musical group. I was also involved in the radio and television production in India for many years. I can speak, read and write Hindi, Punjabi, and speak and understand Urdu fluently.

11134 In Canada I have been involved in the Punjabi radio broadcasting for the last nine years.

11135 In 1995 I started in radio as an associate producer on CJMR 1320.

11136 In 1996 I did some broadcasting on CARB 88.9 FM radio station as an assistant producer.

11137 In September 1997 I bought my own time slot as a broker from Fairchild Radio CHKD 1430 AM.

11138 In the year 2000 I went to CJRN 710 AM Niagara Falls.

11139 In December 2001 I signed a contract with CHSC 1220 AM St. Catharines radio station until September 2002. The station was sold and my contract went void with CHSC's new owners.

11140 I have my own macro-media studio and have the capacity to broadcast the radio program anywhere in North America. Some Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu radio program producers are broadcasting their programs for different frequencies from my studio.

11141 I organized Punjabi in 1998 at CNE grounds and it was attended by more than 25,000 people. In 1999 and the year of 2000 I organized Punjabi at the Brampton Sports Centre and there was record attendance after the Canada Day celebration. In addition, I have been able to participate in the community fundraising and other educational events through my daily program.

11142 I publish a weekly Punjabi newspaper, Punjab Star. It covers the Punjabi community happenings here and abroad.

11143 After September 2002, I was seeking to continue my radio program on other radio stations. I inquired about the various time slots at CJMR 1320, CIAO 530 AM, but to no avail. I also inquired at WTOR 770 AM and they agreed to give me the time slot.

11144 In the meantime, I discussed this Shan Chandrasekar of ATN and he suggested to me that it will be better for me to join him to support the application of CHIN/ATN for the new 101.3 FM frequency.

11145 I have been involved with Shan for the last few years in the television programming for the ATN.

11146 I am supporting the alliance of the CHIN/ATN application for the new 101.3 FM frequency because I feel we as a team can serve the South Asian community in the GTA and provide them with better radio programming.

11147 Thank you.

11148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

11149 MR. SANGHA: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11150 My name is Amarjit Sangha and I have been involved with cultural shows since 1995.

11151 I have come to know Shan Chandrasekar and ATN personally, as I have been seeing his program since I came to Canada in 1984. He is a man who has supported every path of my career in this business. I became involved with the radio business in 1995 as well.

11152 I tried with many producers as assistant producer and brokering time from stations. When I came to this business in 1995 I had more money than I have today, because paying a brokers fee or paying some money which I earned very hard and it wasn't getting worth what I collected from my advertisers.

11153 When I saw the proposal of the CHIN/ATN application saying associate producers means sharing revenue, I thought it was time for me and for so many associate producers from other languages who can share the ideas, share the revenues, being run by new 101.3 FM, which means a lot to the families of associate producers, as well as to ATN and CHIN.

11154 I have been doing outdoor events for ATN for various times, various cultural and religious matters which were being telecast on ATN for no charge, as a community-based program.

11155 They have been doing a lot for the community and I strongly support their application and I would like to request you to grant them -- allow them 101.3 new FM channel.

11156 Thank you.

11157 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen.

11158 Are you Mr. Rai and Mr. Sangha?

11159 MR. RAI: Amarjit Sangha, yes, and Amarjit Rai.

11160 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your presentations, which will be part of the record and added to your written one. Thank you.

11161 Mr. Secretary, please.

11162 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11163 Intervenor numbers 57, 64 and 66 will not be able to appear, so their intervention will remain on the record as non-appearing interventions.

11164 We will now hear from No. 75, R.B. Communications Limited.

--- Pause

INTERVENTION

11165 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: Madame la présidente, conseillers, conseillères.

11166 Mon nom est Suzanne Rochon Burnett. Je suis présidente de R.B. Communications, licencié de CHOW-FM à Welland. Avec moi aujourd'hui notre ingénieur-conseil, M. Wayne Stacey.

11167 Je désire d'abord remercier le Conseil de nous avoir permis de se présenter devant vous aujourd'hui afin de discuter de la proposition de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

11168 Nous espérions sincèrement que ça n'aurait pas été nécessaire étant donné que notre objection technique à propos de cette demande a été confirmée par Industrie Canada.

11169 De toute façon nous sommes ici et nous essayerons d'aider le Conseil le plus possible.

11170 Je vous demande ici de m'excuser parce que j'ai un gros rhume. Alors si je suis à perte de souffle tout le temps c'est que j'ai beaucoup de difficulté à respirer.

11171 First of all, I want to state that our opposition to la Coopérative's application is purely of a technical nature. Aside from our serious concerns about their proposed frequency, we have no objections whatsoever to this application being licensed in Toronto.

11172 Secondly, I want to comment on testimony from the applicant which may have led the Commission to believe that we have been uncooperative in discussing their proposal with them prior to this hearing.

11173 The fact is that they did not deliver a copy of their engineering proposal to us until the 9th of July, this notwithstanding the fact that complete submission for his hearing were to have been filed by the 15th of April.

11174 Although Industry Canada's rules give affected parties 30 days to respond to technical proposals that affect them, we responded in writing on the 15th of July only after six days.

11175 At that time, we made it very clear that the proposed 91.7 facilities in Toronto were unacceptable to CHOW-FM because it did not meet Industry Canada's FM technical rules on several counts.

11176 The most important of these was that they did not protect the 65-kilometre coverage radius to which we are entitled. As a result, we recommended that they either adjust their technical proposal on 91.7 to meet the rules or else re-file for one of the other frequencies being proposed for Toronto.

11177 We did not hear anything from the applicant until after we had filed our CRTC intervention on the 21st of August and received at that time what amounted to a rebuttal letter from Mr. Martel dated the 27th of August.

11178 Our engineering consultant, Mr. Stacey, heard nothing from their Mr. Matthews until the 30th of August when he received an e-mail containing a so-called compromise proposal referred to in Mr. Martel's 27th of August letter to me.

11179 This proposal contained no technical details that could be verified but rather only a map purporting to show the reduced impact on CHOW-FM of the new proposal.

11180 Even at that, the required protection rules were still not being observed and Mr. Matthews was advised of this by telephone by Mr. Stacey on the 3rd of September.

11181 Madam Chair, Commissioners, we feel badly about being accused of obstructing this application. Knowing it would be controversial, why did they wait almost three months after filing their CRTC application to send us their technical proposal? Why did it take them six weeks to get back to us in writing with a new proposal after we rejected their first one? Why do they still insist that they should not have to meet the same technical rules as everyone else? All things considered, we believe that this applicant's difficulties with the regulatory timelines were entirely self-inflicted and certainly not the fault of CHOW-FM.

11182 I would like now to move on to our fundamental concern: the importance to our station of maintaining the service area that we now enjoy.

11183 CHOW-FM is operating in full conformity with the technical rules. When we were approved for our authorized facilities, we went to considerable trouble and expense to ensure that we met all the technical rules. We did not propose reducing anyone else's service area to obtain what we needed for ourselves.

11184 Our approved and protected coverage area includes a substantial populated region along the Lake Ontario shoreline in the area from Oakville down to Hamilton. This signal is very well received there at the present time.

11185 As you have heard in these proceedings, the CHOW-FM signal is also receivable over much of Toronto even though it is outside of our protected service area.

11186 Neither the original nor the 30th of August compromise proposal of la Coopérative meets Industry Canada's FM protection rules. There is absolutely no business reason for our station to negotiate any sort of a deal that would voluntarily surrender any amount of protected coverage of 91.7, regardless of the area, the region or the CMA it may fall within.

11187 We are a stand-alone family-owned business operating in a very competitive radio environment. We need every advantage we can get just to survive.

11188 Please understand that we have no intention of voluntarily encumbering one of our most precious business assets -- our interference-free wide area coverage.

11189 We agree with a number of other parties to this hearing who have stated that 91.7 would be a very poor frequency to use in Toronto. Even la Coopérative had admitted that if they were obliged to meet the standard technical rules that are being observed by the rest of the FM applicants at this hearing, it would rather use a frequency other than 91.7.

11190 Considering all the facts, we respectfully request the Commission not to approve this application for 91.7 conditionally by attaching a requirement that it reach some form of settlement with CHOW-FM that is acceptable to Industry Canada.

11191 Let it be known that we have absolutely no confidence that this would be possible. Such a decision would simply raise expectations with the applicant and the public that are unlikely to be achieved.

11192 It the Commission is otherwise inclined to approve la Coopérative's application, we recommend that it be directed to find a frequency other than 91.7.

11193 Pour terminer, je désire réitérer notre appréciation sincère de nous avoir permis de faire nos commentaires sur une situation qui est pour nous très, très importante ainsi que pour nos auditeurs.

11194 M. Stacey et moi-même nous ferons un plaisir de répondre à vos questions.

11195 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame Noël.

11196 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: J'aimerais savoir d'abord, est-ce que vous préférez que je pose des questions en français ou en anglais?

11197 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: Ça a peu d'importance pour moi, mais M. Stacey il est bilingue.

11198 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Il est très bilingue aussi.

11199 Alors dans votre intervention écrite vous avez parlé d'une zone d'interférence qui toucherait environ 73 000 personnes dans la région de Oakville -- votre intervention écrite qu'on a ici au dossier.

11200 Quelle proportion de ces 73 000 personnes sont des auditeurs de CHOW?

11201 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: On en a de plus en plus. Il ne faut pas oublier que CHOW a seulement trois ans. On a eu trois ans au mois de mai. Évidemment, on n'avait pas les grands sous pour le marketing. Alors on y va à petits pas. On a de plus en plus -- malheureusement je n'ai pas apporté les sondages du BBM. Peut-être que j'aurais dû le faire.

11202 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Peut-être que vous pouvez les fournir au secrétaire. Vous pourriez les envoyer au secrétaire le plus rapidement possible. Il vous dira exactement quels délais sont de rigueur avec le Conseil.

11203 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: Certainement.

11204 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Vous avez fait deux demandes pour convertir une station AM à la station FM actuelle, une première demande qui a avait été acceptée je pense -- je ne suis pas sûre si j'ai apporté les décisions avec moi -- en 1997, et puis ensuite il y a eu une modification demandée pour déplacer le site de transmission qui elle a été acceptée en 1998.

11205 Am I right or wrong? I think I forgot to bring down the decision with me, but --

11206 It's either 1997-98 or 1998-99, something of that kind.

11207 MR. STACEY: What happened, Commissioner, was that there was an approval originally granted to replace CHOW-AM with FM and the intention was to establish a new tower and antenna at the AM site.

11208 Subsequent to that, before being implemented, the licensee was able to locate a parcel of land which allowed a tower to be built at a separate site, and this had the advantage of allowing them to have a period of time when they could operate both the AM and the FM at the same time.

11209 So in fact the first authority was never implemented. The authority that they have today is the one that was actually built and continues.

11210 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So it wasn't a technical problem that forced the move from one tower site to another site. It was --

11211 MR. STACEY: It wasn't a technical problem. It was an advantage in the sense that it allowed the listeners to continue to have the AM service for some period of time after the FM has started up.

11212 But the repercussion of that was that by moving the site somewhat to the northeast it became necessary to use a slightly different design in the antenna because the station has to protect other stations in the United States and the State of New York.

11213 When that design was implemented, it turned out that the coverage area was slightly different -- and I stress "slightly".

11214 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That's where Oakville came into the picture

11215 MR. STACEY: I would like to make a point here, Commissioner, if I could. Throughout the discussion we have had and the documents we have seen from la Coopérative, they have not recognized that a Class B radio station has to be protected to a radius of 65 kilometres from its site. They have tended to protect it only to its 500 microvolt surface contour.

11216 Now, even from the old site, the one that they were originally approved for, the 65-kilometre circle would have enclosed Oakville and all of that territory southwest of Oakville.

11217 The fact of the matter is the 65-kilometre circle changed very little when the site shifted because of the way the geography worked out.

11218 The contour has changed a little bit. We ended up with a service contour over Oakville and those parts of the Lakeshore which didn't exist before, but even if we had not done that, we would still be here today before you opposing this application because it does not protect the 65-kilometre circle which is required in Industry Canada's rule.

11219 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That is one point that I wasn't aware of.

11220 MR. STACEY: If it would help the Commission, I have a map here that lays out the before and after, showing both the coverage and the 65-kilometre circle. I don't have multiple copies.

11221 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It would be this map probably?

11222 MR. STACEY: No. It is one that I prepared especially to address that point.

11223 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Well, we would be delighted to see something that is a bit bigger than what I have in my book here, which is pretty small.

11224 MR. STACEY: This one is much clearer.

11225 COMMISSIONER NOËL: If you would like to file it with the Secretary, I think it would be useful to understand the consequences.

11226 MR. STACEY: We will do that.

11227 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could you tell us what, in your view, is the --

11228 En français ou en anglais, c'est comme vous voulez. Quelle est l'importance de Oakville dans votre plan d'affaire? Oakville contribue quel pourcentage de vos revenus?

11229 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: On a des auditeurs également à Oakville, à Hamilton, dans ces endroits-là, mais on ne fait pas de ventes encore. On s'occupe présentement -- on travaille surtout dans la péninsule. Mais tout de même c'est très important pour nous de savoir qu'ils sont là et qu'éventuellement on pourrait bouger un peu plus loin parce qu'on sort d'une situation qui n'était pas tellement rose.

11230 La station de la famille était affectée financièrement. Alors ma fille et moi on a eu la bonne nouvelle d'avoir la licence transférée à nous qui était une bande AM à ce moment-là, et éventuellement on l'a transformée en FM.

11231 Alors, oui, évidemment que c'est très important. C'est notre territoire et c'est protégé. Alors pour nous on ne veut pas dévaluer non plus notre avoir. Vous voudrez bien comprendre que c'est très important de protéger ce qu'on a parce qu'on est quand même une station seule. On n'a pas de réseau.

11232 CONSEILLÈRE NOËL: Parce que c'était hier ou avant-hier -- je suis un peu mêlée dans mes jours. Lundi, quand M. Matthews a comparu avec la Coopérative, il nous disait qu'il y avait des possibilités d'avoir des arrangements qui vous affecteraient de façon très minime au niveau de Oakville et qui permettraient quand même d'avoir une couverture de Toronto assez intéressante pour la clientèle de la Coopérative qui elle est assez répandue sur une bande est-ouest, parce que leur population n'est pas concentrée dans un secteur de Toronto, mais plutôt répartie un peu partout entre Mississauga et Whitby presque, à l'est.

11233 Alors est-ce qu'il y aurait moyen -- est-ce qu'il y a des possibilités au moins que vous vous parliez et voir quels sont les accommodements possibles qui vous affecteraient au minimum et qui leur permettraient quand même d'utiliser cette fréquence-là de façon raisonnable?

11234 M^me ROCHON BURNETT: Bien vous savez, conseillère Noël, ce n'est pas notre intention.

11235 Comme j'ai dit, et je le redis, c'est notre avoir, c'est tout ce qu'on a. Ma fille et moi on travaille d'arrache-pied depuis six ans maintenant pour remettre la station communautaire et le commerce familial sur pied. Alors c'est très bien.

11236 M. Martel, je comprends qu'il m'a probablement assez assommée ici pendant que je n'y étais pas, mais il me prend par les sentiments. Vous savez, je regrette infiniment. J'ai beaucoup de sympathie et c'est que je dis aussi et je le répète, et j'espère qu'il y aura une station radiophonique francophone à Toronto, mais pas à dépravation de notre industrie, notre commerce à nous.

11237 Là c'est bien beau de jouer avec les sentiments, et Dieu sait que ça me suit. Depuis mon âge adulte que je défends les femmes, les autochtones, les francophones. Ce sont les minorités qui m'habitent et j'ai travaillé toute ma vie pour ça. Je suis reconnue dans ça. Mon passé me suit.

11238 Mais dans ce cas-ci je ne suis pas prête, ni ma fille, à laisser aller un pouce de ce qui nous appartient. C'est tout ce qu'on a. Alors il faut bien le comprendre parce que nous non plus on n'est pas allés chercher -- quand il a été temps de protéger les autres, on les a protégés les autres. On n'est pas allés dire, « Écoutez, on veut avoir Brandford. C'est près de chez nous ». Non, il faut aller par les -- the rules are the rules.

11239 Alors c'est là que moi mon intégrité je vis avec et je ne veux pas me faire forcer. C'est ça.

11240 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Mr. Stacey?

11241 MR. STACEY: I believe your question was: Is it possible to consider that there could be some sort of compromise that would protect CHOW?

11242 Again, I have to stress that what we are dealing with here is the incumbrance of a property. It is like allowing your neighbour to build a fence three feet inside your property line.

11243 That might be acceptable to you and I as long as we are neighbours, but at some point in the future it may no longer be acceptable. I may change my mind, or you and I may no longer be the neighbours. It may be someone else.

11244 So what we are dealing with here is the equivalent on the broadcasting side of encumbering a property. If you allow someone to produce an interference zone in an area that you are not obliged to accept a zone of interference -- and that's what we are dealing with here. The so-called compromise proposal that Mr. Matthews came back with at the end of August was not really a compromise, because it certainly didn't offer anything to CHOW FM.

11245 It is nothing but bad news for them. It only gets worse, no matter what they do in Toronto with that frequency. It doesn't get better.

11246 So all we are talking about is the degree of harm here.

11247 Frankly, I don't believe that it is possible for them to operate that frequency in Toronto and get any reasonable coverage with it and meet the rules that Industry Canada has set that all of the rest of the applicants to this hearing have been obliged to abide by.

11248 I think that if they have to meet the rules, the service on that frequency will be so small in Toronto as to be useless to them. They described the other day that they require a wide area of service.

11249 We cannot see any way, short of breaking a number of Industry Canada rules, of operating that same frequency at a distance of 73.3 kilometres from a full-power Class B station.

11250 We have not at all talked about the impact of the interference that they have to accept in Toronto if they operate, which we feel will be much, much greater than Mr. Matthews has estimated.

11251 I would be prepared to file an engineering statement that includes that comment and some back-up for that statement, if it would be helpful to the Commission.

11252 In other words, we think it is a really bad idea to try to operate two stations on the same frequency that close together when you have a very smooth water radio propagation path between the two stations at Lake Ontario.

11253 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Have you looked at all at an alternative that they could use, like the 105.1, I would think, or other frequencies?

11254 Are you aware of any frequency that could be useful for the purpose?

11255 MR. STACEY: I don't believe there are any alternatives that have not been discussed at some point in these proceedings. There is no magic bullet here that anyone is going to find.

11256 COMMISSIONER NOËL: The only alternative, in your view, would be 105.1.

11257 MR. STACEY: I believe that is the one that they suggested would be an acceptable alternative, and that would have no technical impact CHOW FM.

11258 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much, madame Wylie.

11259 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Stacey, when you say on 91.7 they would have to accept interference from other Toronto signals, that would have nothing to do with Industry Canada rules. It is simply interference would come in that they couldn't do much about, couldn't complain about.

11260 MR. STACEY: They would have to accept a very significant amount of interference from CHOW because of the strong signal that it puts into the Toronto area.

11261 My point is that I believe Mr. Matthews in his technical submission has severely underestimated the impact of that interference. I believe that if they were to operate even at the parameters they were talking about, which is not acceptable to CHOW, that service would prove to be very unacceptable to that licensee in the long term.

11262 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I understand from that that even the famous compromise solution would not be a practical solution.

11263 MR. STACEY: The compromise solution, if they could pull it back far enough to protect CHOW, would make them so weak --

11264 THE CHAIRPERSON: No signal.

11265 MR. STACEY: -- that the interference that comes from CHOW would be that much worse. That is I believe why they suggested that if they couldn't get what they were asking for, they would have to be looking at an alternate frequency. That is what we are encouraging them to do.

11266 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Stacey, since you are here and you have a lot of experience, what is your view of Industry Canada's power or desire, if they exercised it, of forcing a compromise that is outside of the written applicable rules?

11267 MR. STACEY: During a licence term?

11268 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. In a case like this. Various things have been said, the persuasiveness or the power, or whatever, of the Commission to force this issue.

11269 What is your view of Industry Canada's preparedness to force the issue if indeed, as Madame Rochon has mentioned, we were to say we will license you when you fix it, conditional on finding a compromise?

11270 How do you perceive the role of Industry Canada in that situation?

11271 I don't know if you were here when these things were discussed before, but there was even a suggestion that we have the power to decide how many kilometres are protected, which I would love to believe but I have difficulty accepting.

11272 My question to you is: What is, in your experience, Industry Canada's preparedness to actually draw back the coverage of a licensed station when it is operating according to its parameters?

11273 MR. STACEY: I believe that is a legal question as opposed to a technical question.

11274 The engineers certainly could explain what the impact would be on the broadcasters and on the listeners. I think what you are asking me is: Is there a power in the Broadcasting Act or the --

11275 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, not the Broadcasting Act; the Industry Canada rules, which is what you are saying.

11276 MR. STACEY: Well, they flow from the Radio Communication Act.

11277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In your experience -- well, you don't have to answer.

11278 It seems to be suggested that Industry Canada can require Madame Rochon-Burnett to accept a shrinkage of coverage. That is my question.

11279 MR. STACEY: Yes, I understand that, Madam Chair, and my answer to that is: I think it is basically a legal question as to whether a broadcasting certificate can be amended in mid-term. And if they think it can and the licensee thinks it can't, would that be an interesting legal case for the courts to consider?

11280 I really don't know. But in my experience, the department has not retroactively done that.

11281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was my question. In your experience, have you ever heard of that being done, as a suggestion that it could be done?

11282 MR. STACEY: They very much prefer to have the parties try to resolve this among themselves. The problem is that if the Commission issues a conditional decision suggesting that that should be done and you reach an impasse, where does it go from there?

11283 We already have several cases of that flowing from other decisions from other hearings. Frankly, they are very messy and continue to be very messy. And in some cases there is still no resolution in sight.

11284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11285 Merci, madame Rochon-Burnett. Thank you, Mr. Stacey, for your appearance. We hope your health improves.

11286 MS BURNETT: Thank you.

1420

11287 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Monsieur le secétaire, s'il vous plaît.

11288 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11289 We will now hear Intervention no. 45, Dr. Howard McCurdy.

11290 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

INTERVENTION

11291 DR. McCURDY: Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

11292 Let me, first of all, thank you for accommodating the logistical problems that attended my being here, which of course raises the question why this Canadian of 150 years' Canadian ancestry is in Toronto, 200 miles away, to speak in support of the application of the Caribbean-African radio network.

11293 I suppose I should first of all say I have intervened on two previous occasions, first in the saving of the television station CBT in Windsor, and in support of the previous Milestone application.

11294 I am here because a great deal of my political and social activist life has been based on the pursuit of full participation of all minorities, but most particularly those of African descent in all aspects of Canadian society.

11295 An important part of any participation in any society is to be able to see oneself, hear oneself and read oneself in the public media, and to be seen and to be heard and to be read. That is fundamental to a multicultural society that we all be full participants in every aspect of that society.

11296 How does a station of this sort relate to me in Windsor? Well, there has been a great deal of discussion so far, as I understand it, about the cultural contribution that such a station can make to the African-derived population of the Greater Toronto Area.

11297 The Greater Toronto Area is a focus point for political change in this province and in the country. It is also the centre of the largest African population in the country. If there are concerns in any part of the country among those of African descent, they can be aired, discussed and made known to those in power here. That is critical. It is critical for those of African descent to know, to debate the issues within our community and the general community of Canada and in the world as they affect those of African descent.

11298 I, as a young man in Windsor, one of the most exciting days in my life was to tune in to the very end of an AM radio dial and discover the music of my people. In those days it was blues and what we call rock -- not rock and roll, let's distinguish the two. This is wonderful. At long last I heard the music of my people, as written by my people and as performed by my people.

11299 That, in those days, in 1950, was impossible, even though it was broadcast from Nashville, Tennessee by a white-owned station, by a white disk jockey, it was then a revelation.

11300 It is even more important now, despite of the fact that in Detroit I can hear black music on black stations presented by black disk jockeys, there still is lacking, at least in exposure in that part of this country, the discussion of the kinds of things I mentioned earlier, and there certainly is not a Canadian perspective.

11301 There is an abundance of black music, of black culture to be heard in my area. There are, curiously enough, about 600,000 people of African descent in Detroit. There there are about 10 AM and FM stations. Ten AM and FM stations. It strikes me that that is pretty close to the population in the Greater Toronto Area of people of African descent.

11302 So I see that there is really no debate whether another station that represents those of African descent is superfluous. Five hundred thousand people of African descent have a variety of tastes, a variety of vies, a variety of experiences, just as that number of the majority population would be assumed to have.

11303 So if there is any argument that one more is too many, that it must be rejected. It has to be rejected for another reasons, not just in terms of numbers. The question is: What is presented? Is it only one kind of music that is to represent all of the tastes of that 500,000? Or is that 500,000 made up of those of African descent from the Caribbean, from Africa, to be seen in terms of the full panoply, the variety of African music and culture.

11304 But, most important, one has to ask the question: Is only one station, purportedly representing that population, capable of permitting the adequate opportunity for discussion and debate and the presentation of news which is unique to that population? Is only one station to be allowed to bring forth those things that concern us most?

11305 Let me give you an example of the kind of thing that we expect of this station in Toronto, however far it may be away, that we sure know that in my community, in Windsor, and communities all across this country, there are still issues of opportunity and access and racism, racial profiling and similar issues that are not in the public forum.

11306 We must have them in the public forum. We must have them in the public forum so that you and other Canadians will know that there are issues that must be addressed for the health of this country and so that we will know how we might organize ourselves and debate the issues that affect the black community in a way that will allow us -- in a meaningful way, in an informed way: Is there a political case for change when change is necessary.

11307 So I ask you to receive this application favourably, to grant the licence.

11308 I was so disappointed when the Milestone application was rejected. Indeed, most of us were devastated. But some years later when that application was rejected in favour of country music in a community where country music was trivial in comparison to the interests in black music, that licence was granted only later to be converted to a station that broadcast urban music.

11309 So, ladies and gentlemen of this Commission, I hope indeed that you will look at this application for what it is, an application intended to provide that 500,000 people the opportunity to exhibit what they can contribute to this country, to allow our children to know more about ourselves and our great variety, and give us an opportunity to engage in the same kind of public discussion and participation that all other members of this society have, which is necessary for a multicultural society to thrive and to progress.

11310 Thank you very much.

11311 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. McCurdy.

11312 Commissioner Cardozo.

11313 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much, Dr. McCurdy. Thanks for travelling from Windsor to deliver your message.

11314 You touched on this and I just wondered if you could give us a little more of your thoughts. The applicant had talked about:

"One of the important aspects of the application was to provide social, political and religious dialogue of direct and particular relevance to the communities we serve." (As read)

11315 I just want to get some more of your thoughts on that. You have been an activist, as you have indicated, for a long time. You have also been a Member of Parliament.

11316 What are some of the issues you think you would want to see discussed in the course of this station?

11317 DR. McCURDY: There are so many of them. I could not help but to think of what Jean Chrétien said a few days ago about our recognition of the place of North America in the world, and that fact that this earth is not infinite, that its resources are limited and we are terribly greedy.

11318 The people who are engaged in trying to achieve this station, the people that this station will serve, are people who have an understanding as to what extent this country and the United States, North America as a whole, has thrived at the expense of the rest of the world.

11319 Perhaps they will help the general population to understand the limits of this earth and the extent to which our greed has deprived them, not in an angry or resentful way, but as an opportunity for us to gain as civilization, as a country, as a continent in those terms.

11320 In Windsor in recent days, or recent months, we have had a number of examples of racial profiling. Not a single word of it has appeared in newspapers anywhere in the country. Not a word has appeared in television. Not a word has been said about it on radio. That needs to be addressed.

11321 There has been no real opportunity for those in the African population, the coloured minority populations, to really have an opportunity to combat some of the things that are being said about such issues as employment equity, about job opportunities, about poverty as it exists in parts of this country where it should not exist, to have a debate on what kind of society we are going to have in the midst of a debate that seems to be geared in the direction of trying to make Canada more American when Canada had so much to give.

11322 We have made progress as a multicultural society and that progress is being compromised as Canada struggles to understand whether it should be more American or whether it has a unique path to follow.

11323 I think stations of this sort, whether they are Asian stations or African stations or South American stations in this country, of people who want to be more Canadian ultimately, will lend to the leavening of this country into something more than some other model might present to us.

11324 In other words, the creation of cultural opportunities for the minorities in this country will ultimately, in my view, make this a better country, not only because the majority population will understand better the newcomers, but the newcomers will have a better opportunity through dialogue, not only among themselves but with one another and the majority population, to reshape this concept of Canada, to return it to the notion of fundamental justice.

11325 It is a word you don't often hear any more. Economic progress seems to be increasingly talked about in terms of survival of the fittest.

11326 I want my children to have the same faith and the same love and the same hope for this country as I have, even in spite of the experiences that black people had in this country before the great waves of immigration.

11327 With the great wave of immigration those of us who have been here for a long time wanted those waves of immigration of people like us to make a country that was more for us.

11328 This kind of station, this kind of plea that you have before you is one key element in that kind of construction.

11329 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I assume that you will want this rebroadcast in Windsor at some point to counter the American stations coming in?

11330 DR. McCURDY: Well, you have Buffalo stations coming in here and we have American stations coming into Windsor. These are stations, in many instances, that are owned and operated by African Americans, but the African American experience is a different experience in a different kind of society than Canada.

11331 I want to see what those from elsewhere can bring to us integrated into the basic, I think, much more humanitarian notion of what a country can be, which is more characteristic of Canada than the United States. I don't think any country -- I don't think any country wants to allow this population, if it has any real love for itself, to look elsewhere for its models.

11332 We have an opportunity and had an opportunity and we still have an opportunity to create something special, a just society, not the one with the greatest atomic bombs, not the one that goes around saying "You have to be like us", but the one that says "We have what we want".

11333 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

11334 Thank you, Madam Chair.

11335 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr. McCurdy, for your presentation

11336 DR. McCURDY: Thank you.

11337 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11338 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11339 We will now hear intervenor No. 23, the Consulate of the Slovak Republic.

--- Pause

1435

11340 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

11341 Go ahead when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

11342 MR. STEPHENS: Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

11343 First of all, I would like to thank the Committee for allowing me to speak out of turn this afternoon, because I was also occupied with another matter yesterday that I could not get out of. I am delighted to be able to be here this afternoon to speak to you.

11344 On Friday, February 9, 2000 I submitted an intervention on behalf of Infinity when a spot opened up on the radio dial in the Toronto area, and I am pleased to do so again because, despite my plea for an opportunity for the Slovak language and music to be heard on a Toronto radio station, it apparently fell on deaf ears. Nothing has happened during the interval to provide a space for the Slovak language by any other radio station or applicant.

11345 I have during my lifetime been actively involved in the Slovak Canadian community and, having been an officer of various Slovak community organizations, and now Honorary Consul for the Slovak Republic, I repeat my opinion that the Slovak community needs a Slovak radio program to reach the 40,000 Slovaks residing today in the Greater Toronto Area.

11346 Although I am Honorary Consul, I am also a Canadian citizen. I live in Lagoon City on the east shore of Lake Simcoe near Beaverton, and I practise law in Toronto where the Consulate is located. I have a drive of some 110 kilometres each way, which takes some 1-1/2 hours. As a result, I listen to the radio and have formed my own opinions on what is currently available and what should be available on the radio.

11347 It has never made much sense to me that two radio stations sending signals to the GTA should be broadcasting the same program originating from one of them. It has not made sense to me that one radio station in Toronto runs tapes of its morning show late in the evening. It makes even less sense to me that one station that specializes in talk programs should run an American talk show in which the host assaults his audience with phoney interviews to rankle his audience and at the end calmly reveals that in fact he supplied some of the voices!

11348 Another station bombards the audience with sexual innuendoes and titillates its audience with lowest common denominator humour.

11349 I cannot help wonder how the CRTC can decide the merits of the applications presently before it and distinguish one from the other when just about all are better than what is presently available. In other words, shouldn't they all be granted an opportunity to provide better programming than what seems to pass from stations previously licensed?

11350 In the space of three hours a day, five days a week, sometimes six, I yearn for just a bit of Slovak to be available on the radio, but sadly there is none.

11351 Only one applicant, Infinity, has offered to provide two hours weekly of broadcast time to the Slovak community, one of about 14 communities it wishes to serve.

11352 We are a small community. There are some 140,000 Slovaks dispersed throughout Canada, and there is no one area where one can say "that's the Slovak area". Slovaks generally live with one foot in the Canadian mainstream and the other rooted in the Slovak community, mostly associated with church halls and fraternal organizations.

11353 We are too small to afford a daily newspaper and because of distance, many of our people are not consistent attendees at our churches and functions. We need some sort of communication by which our people are kept informed of what is happening in the community, what functions are being held and where they can taste of Slovak community living and culture.

11354 Language becomes an essential matter for us, because assimilation has affected our community more than others. It is frequent that the first generation speaks and understands the Slovak language. The second in due time listens to his or her parents speaking Slovak and replies in English. In the third generation, the ability to speak and read Slovak falls significantly because there is no reinforcement of the language at home or elsewhere.

11355 Slovaks have their arts, music and drama available in the Slovak Republic for those who can afford to get there. But Canadian federal government policy has not been enlightened enough to the extent that it would assist importing radio programs, television programs, audio-visual aids from Slovakia for its libraries here.

11356 Why shouldn't the Canadian people generally be able to listen to Slovak music and opera, especially the works of Suchon, whose operas Whirlpool (Krutnava) and Svatopluk rank with any operas from other countries?

11357 Slovak film makers have made excellent films which may be seen on Canada's French television network, but not on the English.

11358 Likewise, Slovakia has a music recording industry, and the rock operas which have become such staples in North America have been translated into the Slovak language, and our youth in Slovakia sing those same songs in Slovak. Why can't we hear them here? Why shouldn't our Slovak youth have the same access to this music that others do, like the Ukrainian, Polish, Italian, Spanish, French, Chinese, Indian and German?

11359 Is our music and culture less deserving of exposition to the Canadian public?

11360 While some Slovaks appeared in Canada in the late 1800s, immigration from Slovakia came to Canada essentially in three waves:

11361 First, after the First World War and the following depression. In my case, my grandfather's herd of horses was wiped out in an ensuing outbreak of disease, which resulted in the loss of his ranch. His children were forced into the city to find work and later emigrated to Canada, intending to help the family left behind.

11362 Second, after the Second World War there was another wave of immigration as people fled the oncoming atheistic Communism.

11363 And third, after the invasion in 1968 of the then Czechoslovakia by Russia and her Warsaw Pact allies, a third wave came to Canada.

11364 Each of these waves brought differently qualified persons whose talents were being sought by Canada.

11365 Today, another wave has started as the movement of people throughout the world continues. This generation of immigrants is well educated and technically qualified. For whatever reason, our youth have taken to computers like ducks to water. They are eagerly sought in Canada.

11366 But when they come here, they live not in a Slovak ghetto but in multicultural settings with little or no Slovak presence. Until they become oriented, they know little of the existing Slovak community and its institutions available to them. This is why a radio station program would be such a valuable asset and assist to our community.

11367 This is such a big problem that for the first time in many years we find Slovak immigrants returning to Slovakia because they have not felt comfortable and feel there is nothing for them here. If they were able to hear things in their own language, this would dispel such notions and assist in their orientation process in becoming Canadians.

11368 With Slovak arts troupes appearing in Canada, we have noted that there is a difference between the language spoken in Slovakia at the present time and that which is spoken in Canada, which really represents a language frozen from the era in which it was brought to Canada.

11369 I remember well one Slovak comedian being puzzled because some of his jokes didn't seem to go over well. The problem wasn't his delivery; it was just that he was using words that the people here were not familiar with. Being able to hear Slovak idiom on the radio would help our people keep up to date with the language.

11370 Southern Ontario is the place most Slovaks head for, as is the case with other immigration groups. Toronto is seen as the place to succeed. As a result, our community is centred in the Toronto area but reaches out to such cities as Hamilton, Kitchener, Welland, St. Catharines and Oshawa. Each of these communities has its Slovak counterpart which provides for a continuing cultural presence.

11371 As a result, having a radio program in this area would service a large part of the community and prove to be very beneficial.

11372 I have concluded, as have others before me, that it is crucial to our community to be able to have its youth listen to Slovak as it is spoken and sung, not just in the home but on the mainstream radio. First, it reinforces usage of the language and, second, it recognizes our language as an accepted minority language within Canada's framework of multiculturalism.

11373 For Canada's policy of bilingualism within a multicultural framework to work in Canada, it requires Canadians to feel comfortable listening to languages other than English. I say this very specifically, because there seems to be a resentment in our young people to learning French, which would be lessened if other languages were also included in the school curriculum.

11374 In Europe, where within an hour one can cross several countries, the constant exposure to other languages means that language is regarded as simply another tool of communication. In Canada the learning of French seems to be regarded politically as one major linguistic group trying to overcome another major linguistic group, instead of being a communicative tool.

11375 Our Canadian educational system produces young people skilled in vocabulary and reading but not in speaking or being able to understand what is being spoken to them in French or other languages.

11376 Sending an English-speaking child to French schools will make them bilingual for a time until environmental factors take over in the English-speaking milieu. But what of the overwhelming numbers of students who live in English-speaking communities where resistance to learning any language other than English is part of everyday life?

11377 To support bilingualism in a multicultural framework, the CRTC should encourage scenarios in which Canadians are more frequently exposed to French and other languages because of the overwhelming presence on English. This is not to detract from English, which clearly is the language of the majority, but being able to speak a second language also helps one's mastery of the use of English.

11378 I have mentioned previously that the major networks should have French segments on the national news. It is not sufficient to place French solidly on one station and English on another. That does not help the respect one should have for other languages, nor does it help expose a language to the other language speaker.

11379 If I had my way, I would have a massive student exchange program from one linguistic area to another and let the students make their own way in the languages rather than forcing it upon them. I am convinced that ski trips and sporting jaunts do more for Canadian unity than anything else.

11380 This is the reason I speak for the Infinity application, because I see it as a promise to expand the exposure of languages in Canada, especially to the smaller minorities who, too, must be made to feel welcome in Canada.

11381 So as I close, I ask you to remember the traveller through the snowy weather of our Canadian winters, and through the heat of our Canadian summers, twiddling the dial on his radio trying to find programming that helps him or her in his appreciation of the languages used in Canada, and making him or her feel a little more at home in Canada by being able to hear his language on the radio sometime soon.

11382 Thank you for your kind attention.

11383 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Stephens, for your presentation which will be transcribed and added to the transcript, along with your written intervention.

11384 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11385 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, please.

11386 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11387 We will now hear intervenor no. 11 on the agenda, The Anglican Diocese of Toronto, Rev. Paul Feheley.

11388 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

1450

INTERVENTION

11389 REV. FEHELEY: Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Paul Feheley. I am an Anglican priest of the Diocese of Toronto. I have a parish in Oshawa, but I also chair the Communications Committee for the Anglican Diocese of Toronto.

11390 I want to thank you for the opportunity to come before you today to offer the support of the Anglican Diocese of Toronto to the application for a broadcast licence of Radio Plus Toronto.

11391 My presentation will be limited to two key points: first, the need for radio in Toronto to better reflect the community; and second, how the culture and diversity of Anglicans will be served by this application.

11392 Over the past 50 years Anglican churches in the Diocese of Toronto have seen a wide range of attendance patterns.

11393 The 1950s was a time when churches were full and religious denominations dominated people's Sunday schedules.

11394 In the last 40 years we have seen huge shifts in the way that people view churches. Sometimes, and in some places, attendance continues to flourish while in other places attendance is in decline. While we have this up and down pattern of attendance, depending on a variety of circumstances, what has not seemed to change is people's interest in spiritual matters.

11395 Maclean's Magazine, which regularly conducts polls on this, has found it to be so, and the work of Reginald Bibby, Canada's best-known religious trends author, also proves the point.

11396 Muriel Duncan, writing in the May 2002 issue of the United Church Observer, says the following:

"So it is with Bibby's new book, 'Restless Gods: The Renaissance of Religion in Canada' (Stoddart). Here we have 'signs that the gods are shaking up Canadians from coast to coast, leading them to ask vital questions about life and death, communicating with them directly, and giving them hints of transcendence.' Large numbers of people, Bibby found, continue to think some of the answers they seek 'lie in the religious traditions of their parents and grandparents.'

These folk are not in church now but are open to greater involvement if they see it would be worth their while. Bibby's surveys show that the 'demand side' (religious needs of Canadians) has remained fairly constant but the 'supply side' (new rival religious groups) have not seized the opportunity."

11397 At the present time the radio stations in Toronto do not represent the spiritual life of the community. Radio Plus Toronto has an opportunity to correct the balance. We believe that a significant contribution to the values, beliefs and quality of life of the community will be enhanced by the approval of this application.

11398 The Anglican interest is twofold.

11399 First, we would be very interested in broadcasting on Radio Plus Toronto as part of the diversity that is required by this application. We foresee the possibility of broadcasting specific services for shut-ins, educational and musical opportunities and interviews and profiles of Anglican individuals and parishes.

11400 We will also speak to social needs within the community and a wide range of other matters, while always respecting the broad range of multifaith beliefs that are part of the make-up of Toronto.

11401 Anglicans, as well as other denominations, have played a significant role in shaping the city, particularly meeting the needs of the disadvantaged. Radio Plus Toronto will allow us opportunities to educate people about the needs of their fellow citizens and help them cope with increasing tensions around families, relationships and unemployment. This station will also enable them to achieve a sense of peace and love based on the development of their faith.

11402 I believe every week more people attend worship than all of the sports events combined in Toronto. For the sports fans, they have four daily papers with a sports section, large weekend coverage, three television stations on basic cable, and one radio station exclusively for sports. What exists for the person who has faith? The approval of this application would give us the opportunity to meet their needs on a day-to-day basis.

11403 The second point I wish to make is centred on the cultural diversity of the Anglican church. Our former name was the Church of England and as the British Empire spread, so did the Anglican church. Some people, unfortunately, still view us as a white, English church.

11404 The truth is somewhat different. The Anglican communion is made up of 54 provinces worldwide in 164 countries, with the largest population of Anglicans being in Africa. Toronto is a centre for immigration and in the past few decades the Anglican Church of Toronto has dramatically changed its ministry. On any given Sunday, you can attend Anglican worship not only in English but also Spanish, Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese, Tamil, Japanese, Korean, French, Filipino and Italian.

11405 Anglicans share much in common with Roman Catholics, and where Radio Plus Toronto is broadcasting in a specific ethnic language I have no doubt that Anglicans would be keen listeners.

11406 To summarize, the Anglican church in the Diocese of Toronto supports Radio Plus Toronto's application because we believe the addition of such a station would enhance the lives of the community and with its cultural diversity will speak to Anglicans in a unique way.

11407 Thank you for the opportunity of coming before you this day to share with you our support of the Radio Plus Toronto application.

11408 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Reverend Feheley. We assure you that your presentation will be transcribed and added to the record.

11409 REV. FEHELEY: Thank you very much.

11410 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for visiting with us.

11411 Mr. Secretary, please.

11412 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11413 We will now hear from intervention No. 48, CHRY Community Radio Incorporated.

--- Pause

11414 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

11415 MR. ROUSE: Good afternoon.

11416 My name is Anderson Rouse and I am the Operations Coordinator of CHRY Community Radio based in Toronto. I very much appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.

11417 This intervention relates to the application by A. Fitzroy Gordon, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, to be known as the Caribbean and African Radio Network Inc. or CARN. That application is set out at item 12 of Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2002-8. I refer to that applicant as CARN in this intervention.

11418 CARN proposes to provide a new radio programming service in the Toronto area, operating on frequency 105.1 MHz with an effective radiated power of 78 watts. In addition, the applicant proposes to operate an AM transmitter in Toronto to rebroadcast the programs of the new FM station.

11419 CHRY opposes the granting of frequency 105.1 MHz to CARN as it is our respectful submission that it is not in the public interest to do so. The approval of this application may cause the loss of CHRY's pre-existing high-quality FM service. I will discuss the reasons for this position in further detail during this presentation.

11420 Before I go on, I would like to state that CHRY is very much in favour of an increase in the availability of radio programming that serves Toronto's ethnic communities. Toronto is the home of Canada's largest ethno-cultural population. CHRY is of the view that there are a large number of ethno-cultural groups in Toronto that deserve a voice in our radio broadcasting system.

11421 I would like to begin by talking to you briefly about CHRY.

11422 The Commission granted CHRY an FM licence on March 30, 1987. Shortly after that time we launched our FM radio service over-the-air and this year we are celebrating our 15th anniversary. However, the origins of our radio station date back even further, to 1968, when Radio York began operating a closed circuit radio station from York University.

11423 As the Commission is aware, CHRY was granted frequency 105.5 megahertz, a low-power FM frequency with an effective radiated power of 50 watts, in Decision CRTC 87-240. We have been operating on that frequency since 1987. The region that we serve is a rich and wonderfully diverse area of Toronto. It includes a large student and non-student community and many different ethno-cultural groups.

11424 Our programming has been carefully developed over the years to reflect the diversity, interests, passions and concerns of our listening community. For example, while most of the programming aired on CHRY is broadcast in English, we also provide outstanding programming in various third languages such as Spanish, Hebrew, Somali, Italian, Tamil, Sinhalese, Pashtu, Dari, Twi and Ga.

11425 CHRY is also strongly committed to the presentation, development and support of Canadian artists and performers. For example, we are very proud of our new CD compilation called "Under the Radar". This album features some of the best up-and-coming hip-hop and spoken word artists in Ontario and Quebec and provides them with an opportunity for national exposure.

11426 CHRY is a volunteer-driven organization. Since the inception of our station, we have been dedicated to providing a welcoming and stimulating environment to our volunteer community. We are dedicated to providing strong training in broadcasting and communications skills to students and many other members of our community. We are proud to say that many of our volunteers have gone on to careers in broadcasting.

11427 If I may add, it is also pleasing to me to see among the various applicants sitting in front of you the last couple of weeks a number of people who have based their career in community-based campus radio and have gone on to successful, hopefully, applications this year.

11428 Finally, CHRY is a valuable and active member of the community that we serve. Over the past 15 years we have developed strong ties with many community organizations in the region that we serve, such as the Jamaican Canadian Association, Jane-Finch Concerned Citizens Association, Driftwood Community Centre and many others.

11429 Given that some of the characteristics I have mentioned fulfil a number of key public policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act, and given the important role that our radio station plays in the Toronto community, CHRY is concerned that the approval of CARN's application may result in the inability to reach our audience, or ultimately the loss of our valuable FM service.

11430 As discussed earlier, CARN proposes to use frequency 105.1 MHz to provide its new radio programming service in the Toronto area. CHRY's engineers have had an opportunity to review the applicant's FM Technical Brief. Currently, CHRY operates on an unprotected low-power FM frequency. We have been advised that should CARN be granted frequency 105.1, and should CHRY remain on frequency 105.5, our frequency will likely cause interference to CARN.

11431 CHRY notes that at page 2 of the applicant's Technical Brief prepared by Elder Engineering Inc. it states that:

"[A]s a low power assignment CHRY is not entitled to protection from new-FM."

11432 The Commission's policy states that low power radio signals are not protected against interference from regular, protected FM undertakings. This means that should CARN begin operating on frequency 105.1 and CHRY remain on frequency 105.5, it appears likely we would ultimately be required to cease broadcasting on our frequency. Given the important role that CHRY plays in the Toronto community, it is our respectful submission that a new entrant should not unnecessarily cause the demise of our programming service.

11433 This would result in a tremendous loss to the Canadian broadcasting system and, in CHRY's respectful view, runs counter to the essence and spirit of Canada's broadcast policy adopted by Parliament. One of the Commission's key goals is to ensure that Canada has a strong, viable and vibrant broadcasting system. To replace a long-standing member of Canada's broadcast community with an untried new player does not serve to attain that important goal.

11434 One of the key criteria that the Commission considers when granting a new radio licence is the impact that a new licensee would have on existing broadcasters in a given market. Should the Commission approve CARN's proposal to broadcast on frequency 105.1, there would be a seriously negative impact on CHRY. We would no longer be able to reach our listeners.

11435 This scenario highlights our growing concern about our continued unprotected status. In order to obtain a protected FM frequency, CHRY has filed an application for a change of frequency and increased wattage and requested to use frequency 105.1, the same frequency that CARN proposes to use. As the Commission will note from the technical information that we filed with our written intervention, the only FM frequency that is currently available in Toronto that would meet the needs of CHRY and its listeners is 105.1.

11436 If I may just add, a significant amount of work and money has gone into the preparation of these applications and briefs, especially within the last two years but beyond those two years as well.

11437 There are three key reasons for which CHRY has applied for a protected FM frequency.

11438 First, the availability of frequencies in the Toronto market is becoming increasingly limited. CHRY is a broadcaster on a low-power unprotected FM frequency. Based on the Commission's policy on low-power radio stations and the ongoing licensing and development of radio broadcasting in Toronto, we are concerned that we could eventually lose our place in the radio broadcasting system.

11439 The second key reason for which CHRY wishes to obtain a new protected FM frequency is to extend its signal in order to reach a greater number of listeners in the Toronto area.

11440 Thirdly, CHRY wishes to obtain a new FM frequency in order to improve its signal in outlying regions. In particular, we need to improve our coverage of York Region, where many of our listeners reside, and where significant residential and commercial development over the years has had an impact on the reach of our signal.

11441 The use of 105.1 would also allow CHRY to continue to transmit our signal from York University. While there may be other signals available in the Toronto area, they would require CHRY to transmit its signal from downtown Toronto. The costs associated with such a change in facilities are outside of our financial means.

11442 Given CHRY's demonstrated success as a Toronto broadcaster and our ongoing commitment to the Toronto community, we respectfully request that the Commission not grant CARN frequency 105.1. Should the Commission approve the CARN's proposal, we suggest that the CRTC not grant CARN the use of frequency 105.1. Rather, we propose that CARN be required to seek an alternate frequency.

11443 Just before I conclude I would like to raise a point for clarification and also concern.

11444 We were very surprised to find in the public record a letter filed from CARN just to Ms Lynn Lalonde, Senior Broadcast Analyst at the CRTC. First I will speak about it in terms of clarification.

11445 The applicant indicates in the answer to Question 16, as posed by Ms Lalonde:

"Regarding availability of advertising from Caribbean and African businesses in Toronto, CHRY receives currently $295,000 in ad revenue from this sector." (As read)

11446 Our maximum total annual revenue at any one year, and projected for this coming year, is in the range of $310,000 to $330,000. Advertising accounts for approximately $130,000 of that amount. The rest comes from fundraising and the students of York University.

11447 Our local advertising accounts for approximately $120,000 in any given year. We estimate roughly that approximately 70 per cent to 80 per cent of that $120,000 comes from African and/or Caribbean businesses, which would roughly give you a number of between $80,000 and $90,000 per year.

11448 Our past audited statements are public record and I am willing to provide our most recent audited statements, at the Commission's request, to underline this point.

11449 Secondly, in terms of our concern about this matter, we are concerned about the impact that this can have on our advertising base. As I pointed out, this number, the $80,000 to $90,000 is a significant number in terms of our annual operating budget, in terms of our advertising and in terms of our total operating budget.

11450 We have noted in the prospectus prepared by CARN that they propose to use rates, at least at the inception of their operation, that would be less than or equal to our advertising rates.

11451 On behalf of CHRY, I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have.

11452 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Colville.

11453 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11454 Good afternoon, Mr. Rouse.

11455 I guess I'm just curious, as you note in your brief -- and I don't have the history of this either with me or in my head, so just help me out here briefly.

11456 You were licensed on 105.1, as you indicated, in 1987?

11457 MR. ROUSE: That is 105.5.

11458 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I'm sorry?

11459 MR. ROUSE: it is 105.5.

11460 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I'm sorry, 105.5. So how long -- oh, right.

11461 That is on an unprotected basis?

11462 MR. ROUSE: That is correct.

11463 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So in the interval between then and now, had CHRY made any attempt to modify that situation such that you would be in fact on a protected basis? With Industry Canada I'm thinking, not so much with the Commission.

11464 MR. ROUSE: There has been research done over the years into finding out ways of increasing our power. Currently 105.5 does not offer, from our location, the ability to go to a protected status, which is part of the reason for our application.

11465 During that time we have recognized that it would take a lot of preparation, both structurally and financially, to get to a position where we could explore those options properly. As of January 2001, when we began our feasibility studies, we felt that we were then in a position to properly execute such a proposal.

1505

11466 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I'm sorry, that happened when that you were able to put together --

11467 MR. ROUSE: The feasibility study which I mentioned, which was included in our written intervention I believe, or at least the results of that, was initiated in January of 2001. Some research had been done before that into this matter.

11468 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: That was submitted to Industry Canada?

11469 MR. ROUSE: I'm sorry, the feasibility study?

11470 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Right.

11471 MR. ROUSE: Our complete brief has been submitted to Industry Canada.

11472 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Have you had a response from them on that?

11473 MR. ROUSE: They have asked us for some further information in terms of maps, which we have provided. I think there was a problem with the sizing of those maps. My last conversation with someone at Industry Canada indicated that they were working on the file as we speak.

11474 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I read your original brief and then the submission today largely focuses on this interference problem, but you are also raising the concern about advertising.

11475 MR. ROUSE: Yes. That was not part of my prepared speech for today, however it is just as I was going some research today I found this information and I thought it would be relevant to add it in this intervention.

11476 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: But the main point of your opposition is the technical issue.

11477 Absent the technical problem, would you be intervening against CARN?

11478 MR. ROUSE: As we have stated, we have put a significant amount of work into finding this frequency. It is the only frequency that would satisfy our needs. So whether it would be CARN or any other applicant looking at 105.1, we would have filed an intervention, yes.

11479 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't state the question very well.

11480 If there was not a technical problem here, would you still be intervening against CARN?

11481 MR. ROUSE: Yes, we would.

11482 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: On what basis?

11483 MR. ROUSE: I would admit the basis would not be as strong, but given this work and, as I stated, the dire need for this one solution, which is our final solution, I may be stepping ahead of myself to say "file an intervention", but we would have at least looked into ways of trying to avoid the situation where we are locked out of the last available frequency for us.

11484 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Thank you, very much, Mr. Rouse.

11485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Rouse, you are intervening because they are proposing 105.1. You are on 105.1 now.

11486 MR. ROUSE: We are on 105.5 at the moment.

11487 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you have already filed an application on 105.1.

11488 MR. ROUSE: That is correct.

11489 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is your application before the Commission, before us, over and above your technical brief?

11490 MR. ROUSE: The application has been filed. It has not been scheduled for a hearing or anything along those lines, but it has been filed.

11491 THE CHAIRPERSON: It has been filed. It is with the Commission?

11492 MR. ROUSE: Yes, it is.

11493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since when?

11494 MR. ROUSE: Since September 9th.

11495 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't have technical acceptability yet from Industry Canada?

11496 MR. ROUSE: From Industry Canada, no, we do not.

11497 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because, you say, of the size of the map?

11498 MR. ROUSE: Because of the maps.

11499 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if it weren't that CARN had applied on that frequency, would you have a problem with their proposal?

11500 MR. ROUSE: We would have no problems with this proposal.

11501 THE CHAIRPERSON: If they were on 101.3, for example, you wouldn't be here?

11502 MR. ROUSE: None at all.

11503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Rouse.

11504 Mr. Secretary, please.

11505 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11506 We will now hear intervenor No. 49, the National Campus and Community Radio Association.

--- Pause

11507 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead when you are ready.

INTERVENTION

11508 MR. GRAGG: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Members of the Panel.

11509 My name is Russell Gragg and I am presenting on behalf of the National Campus and Community Radio Association, or the NCRA.

11510 I would like to read from a letter submitted to the CRTC from the NCRA President, Fiona York.

"Dear Secretary General:

I am writing on behalf of the National Campus and Community Radio Association to intervene against the application by the Caribbean African Radio Network. While the NCRA supports in general the goals of the Caribbean African Radio Network, we are against this specific application because of the negative impact it has on another radio station, CHRY-FM.

The National Campus and Community Radio Association was formed in 1981 and is a not-for-profit national association of radio stations and individuals committed to volunteer-based, community-oriented radio broadcasting.

The NCRA is dedicated to advancing the role and increasing the effectiveness of Campus and Community Radio in Canada. We provide advice and advocacy for individual stations and work on lobbying and policy development for the sector as a whole.

Over the years, the NCRA has written regular submissions to the CRTC in support of campus and community radio stations. These submissions have been letters of support for individual radio stations applying for licences or renewals, submissions to the campus or community radio policy development process, comments on policies relating to campus or community radio, and letters expressing concern about any action taken or contemplated by the Commission that may be detrimental to campus stations.

Throughout, our goal has been to safeguard the stability and potential for individual stations and to promote the long-term growth and effectiveness of this sector.

We have intervened against applications by commercial stations that could cause reception problems for our campus station and research interference issues with commercial stations and the CBC. More broadly, we have been opposed to any trends towards commercial consolidation, open calls that might work against the needs of non-profit stations in competition with commercial stations.

We have also been very concerned about spectrum scarcity and the lack of frequencies in larger markets. We believe that consideration should be given to the intensely effective role of small non-profit stations in serving community needs and fulfilling the mandate of the Broadcast Act and that this role should be given formal protection by the Commission.

Because of these issues, we are opposed to the application by CARN-FM, although we are very much in favour of increased diversity and community representation in the media.

In the NCRA's response to Public Notice CRTC 2001-129 dated February 22, 2002, we stated that:

`Although the CRTC suggests that the increasing scarcity of the spectrum space demands closer examination of applications for those spaces, this scrutiny causes a potentially unsurmountable hurdle for small stations. We know of one case in which the low-power applicants almost lost funding, space and community support due to this type of process.'

As well, there is a far greater need to support and provide unobstructed access for low-power stations in areas where there is increasing congestion in the airwaves and a policy that allows and encourages commercial stations to compete with tiny community-based stations, i.e., a general call only hinders the diversity and access that are as important in large centres as elsewhere in Canada. In the case of CHRY, substantial work has already been done on the station's power increase application to the CRTC. CHRY-FM is a 15-year-old community-based campus radio station broadcasting from York University in North York Ontario. Over its impressive history, this low-power radio station has built a strong and dedicated audience. CHRY has proved that both the cultural and community-based programming have strong support in the Toronto area and the importance of serving cultural communities in North York and Toronto. CHRY was the first station in the Toronto area to provide substantial airtime for Caribbean and African-based programming and music.

Based on this, CHRY has a number of concerns with the application by CARN-FM. The frequency CARN has submitted in its application to the CRTC is the same frequency CHRY has selected for its increased power.

As well, if CARN is awarded a licence and operates at this frequency, there are significant interference concerns for CHRY in the event that it remains at its current frequency, which is second adjacent on the frequency CARN is requesting.

Finally, CARN would compete directly with CHRY's programming and listenership." (As read)

11511 The technical issues are outlined in detail in a letter from CHRY, however I will add that there are additional issues caused by the fact that CHRY has a low-power, i.e. 50 watt, licensee. This means that the signal is unprotected and that CHRY will have little recourse if interference issues arise between the two stations. It also means that it is to CHRY's advantage to increase its power as quickly as possible so as never to be subject to interference in the future, especially in this crowded southern Ontario market.

11512 Connected to these technical issues and the possible harm to CHRY is the effort that has gone into securing a stronger protected frequency for the station. Many years of research, planning, discussion and effort have gone into CHRY's nearly complete power increase application.

11513 As early as 1993 and prior, work was being done in preparation for the power increase project. Now, after almost a decade of effort, CHRY is on the verge of being able to increase its wattage. This has been the goal of the station almost since its inception and has also been the request of many listeners over the years.

11514 For this reason alone we respectfully request that the consideration of the application by CARN-FM be delayed until CHRY's high-power application process is completed.

11515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Gragg, this intervention is already on the record in writing and you may not make it in 10 minutes. Perhaps you can take that into consideration as you go through to emphasize the more important parts, because you are limited to 10 minutes.

11516 MR. GRAGG: Certainly.

1520

11517 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have some minutes left, but probably not enough to complete the reading of all of this.

--- Pause

11518 THE CHAIRPERSON: I didn't want to interrupt you completely, just to give you a --

11519 MR. GRAGG: I am just trying to figure out which to --

11520 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- forewarning that you may be running short of time.

11521 You have four minutes left I'm told.

11522 MR. GRAGG: All right. Thank you.

11523 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just didn't want to interrupt you. I was warning you ahead of time. Since we have the text we can tell how much more there is.

11524 MR. GRAGG: Yes. Thank you.

11525 It is difficult to convey the time, energy and resources that go into an application by a small, non-profit station to the CRTC or a response to a challenge to the station's broadcasting ability.

11526 I believe that if the CRTC is to truly support low-power stations and the further development of the third sector of radio broadcasting in Canada, these issues must be considered and provisions must be made for the fair participation of non-profit stations.

11527 Once again I would like to reiterate, on behalf of the NCRA, that we do support the Caribbean African Radio Network in its efforts to increase diversity in radio programming in the Toronto area. We do not specifically oppose their application, but would oppose any group applying for the frequency in question, which is 105.1 FM, because of its impact on CHRY.

11528 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.

11529 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just two questions.

11530 One is, I hear clearly what you are saying. The difficulty for us is that what we have is an application on file that was filed in time for this hearing and you don't have an application before us, although you have made your point clearly in terms of the FM frequency.

11531 You may be aware that CARN has also applied for 790 AM.

11532 MR. GRAGG: Yes.

11533 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I take it you would have no problem with that?

11534 MR. GRAGG: We would have no objection to that.

11535 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.

11536 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your presentation. We do have the written text on our record and added to it will be the presentation you made today on behalf of your colleague. Thank you.

11537 Mr. Secretary, please.

11538 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

11539 We will now have The Canada Tamil Parents' Association to intervene at this time.

--- Pause

11540 MR. LEBEL: Not seeing anybody, Madam Chair, this intervention will remain on file as a non-appearing intervention.

11541 We will now ask intervenor No. 77, Dr. Kumar, to intervene at this time.

--- Pause

11542 MR. LEBEL: Not seeing anybody, this intervention will also remain as non-appearing.

11543 Intervention No. 78 is the National Association of Canadian Tamils. We will ask them to intervene at this time.

--- Pause

11544 MR. LEBEL: This intervention will remain on the record as a non-appearing intervention.

11545 Number 71, Hispanic Development Council.

--- Pause

11546 MR. LEBEL: This one will also remain as a non-appearing intervention.

11547 That concludes the list of the appearing intervenors, Madam Chair.

11548 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

11549 That concludes Phase III of this hearing.

11550 We will resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning with Phase IV.

11551 Nous reprendrons à 9 heures demain matin avec la phase IV de l'audience.

11552 Bonsoir à tous. Good evening to all.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1523, to resume

on Friday, September 27, 2002 at 0900 / L'audience

est ajournée à 1523, pour reprendre le vendredi

27 septembre 2002 à 0900

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