ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Toronto, Ontario - 2002-09-19

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Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2002-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"


Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 19, 2002 le 19 septembre 2002

Volume 3


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of


However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"


Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

David Colville Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller


Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager / Gérante

de l'audience

Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire

Alastair Stewart Legal Counsel /

conseiller juridique


Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 19, 2002 le 19 septembre 2002



PHASE I (continued)


San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre 533 / 3117

Magic 1610 Markham Radio 625 / 3679

A. Fitzroy Gordon (OBCI) 696 / 4083

--- Upon resuming on Thursday, September 19, 2002

at 0830 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

19 septembre 2002 à 0830

3111 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome back to our hearing.

3112 Monsieur le sécretaire, s'il vous plaît.

3113 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

3114 Item No. 7 on our agenda is an application by San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre for a licence to operate a non-commercial AM Type B community radio station to broadcast ethnic programming in Toronto.

3115 The new station would operate on frequency 1610 kilohertz, with a transmitter power of 1,000 watts day and night.

3116 Ms Michelle Maron will introduce the panel, and you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


3117 MS MARON: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

3118 Father Hernan Astudillo is priest of San Lorenzo parish. He is the first ordained Latin American Anglican priest in Canada. Father Hernan is chairman of the Community Centre Board.

3119 Juan Carranza is a well-known Toronto lawyer and the first Central American admitted to the Ontario Bar. He is a member of the Community Centre Board.

3120 Linda McGlade teaches at Bishop Allen Academy. She has a Masters in International Development. Linda is a member of the Community Centre Board.

3121 Rodrigo Briones is a radio producer and is presently a radio consultant to the UN. He is a member of the Community Centre Board.

3122 Jose Antonio Martinez is an accountant. He is treasurer of the Community Centre Board.

3123 David Nickerson is a Computer Consultant and Project Manager.

3124 Bishop Anne Tottenham is Anglican Bishop of the Credit Valley region of Toronto.

3125 Pedro Sanchez is a well-known journalist and radio and television producer with CBC He is a member of the Community Centre Board.

3126 Wayne Plunkett is a broadcasting consultant.

3127 I would like to call upon Father Hernan, our first speaker, to address the panel.

3128 Thank you.

3129 FATHER ASTUDILLO: Good morning, Commissioners. Thank you for the opportunity to express our dreams; dreams which are the realistic path of our Spanish-speaking community in Toronto.

3130 As you are aware, we do not have a Spanish-speaking community radio station to orientate, to educate, to share our traditions and to find a rhythmical way of encouraging integration of our Spanish community in the Canadian context.

3131 Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world. We are like a beautiful garden, filled with a variety of colourful flowers. In our daily lives, we sing and speak many rhythmical languages and, in the spontaneous expression, you will witness the tremendous gifts of our diversity.

3132 As a result of our unique experiences on the Latin American continent, we have come to Canada with a variety of needs that we feel are not adequately addressed by any radio station in Toronto. At present, we do not have a voice. We are like the birds without branches, without nests. We have a handful of community centres, cultural organizations and artistic groups; however, there seems to be no unity between them, nor a platform for them to convey essential information.

3133 Consequently, the San Lorenzo Latin American Community Radio Station would like to offer a means of integration for immigrants and other segments of the community from the 21 Latin American countries and other Spanish-speaking countries.

3134 It is our goal to reform the methods of integration within the Toronto society. Our programs will cover a variety of areas, including cultural, health, sport, gender and youth issues, children's programs and multicultural interests.

3135 The community's dreams and concerns need to have a voice in the radio station. I invite you to hear why this is so with the presentation of my fellow board members and colleagues.

3136 Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup.

3137 MR. CARRANZA: Good morning, Commissioners, Madam Chairman.

3138 To most in the Latin American community it was no surprise when Professor Michael Ornestein revealed, in his report entitled "Ethno Racial Inequality in the City of Toronto", that Central and South Americans are significantly to extremely disadvantaged according to unemployment, education and poverty.

3139 Access to mass media should also be considered as a key indicator of integration. The CRTC's own data indicates that the Spanish-speaking community in Toronto only has 18.3 hours of Spanish-language programming per week. This for a community of 175,000. So it means that there 9,562 persons for every hour of Spanish radio. This is by far the highest ratio of any other language group presently served by ethnic radio.

3140 Clearly, there is a lack of effective communication vehicles to assist the fastest growing ethnic group in Canada. Toronto hosts the largest Spanish-speaking community in Canada, but it is still does not have a radio station.

3141 The existing Spanish radio initiatives are significantly restricted by air time. This compels them to adopt a purely commercial character and thus fail to address many essential areas that a full-time grass roots community radio would cover, such as legal initiatives, political decisions, new laws and how these impact on the community.

3142 Focus and reflection on local issues is seriously lacking. The aspect alone could be the single most efficient tool of integration of the community.

3143 The San Lorenzo Community has hosted public events to inform the community of new legislation, educational policies and other important events in society. It has also earned the admiration and support of the larger Toronto community for its solidarity initiatives in responding to natural disasters in Latin America in its quixotic "Caravan of Hope", where dozens of school buses filled with supplies were driven to isolated communities in earthquake ravaged El Salvador.

3144 Lastly, while we are inundated with the platinum records of Gloria Estefan, Ricki Martin, Shakira, Marc Anthony and other U.S.-made Latin stars, we sadly witness the magnificent pool of local Latin jazz bands, mambo, salsa, meringue, rock, bolero, Tango, Andean and other phenomenal musical talent, go completely unnoticed and without any support. For example, have you heard of Mambo Urbano? Dominicanada? Surco? Daniel Huezo? Memo Acevedo?

3145 Our community has the talent and the expertise. We need the space, the support.

3146 Canada's music industry will also benefit from the development and export of home-grown Latino rhythms. For years, he San Lorenzo Community Centre has organized popular music and cultural festivals showcasing local Latino talent. Dozens of local musicians, dancers and comedians have had their first shots at the festivals "Inti Raymi, Abya Yala and La Chola Cuencana".

3147 The community response has been overwhelming. A larger forum is needed.

3148 The Latin American community is in great need of a radio voice that can assist in breaking its isolation from society. Radio is an accessible and essential tool for integration. The San Lorenzo Community Radio Station proposes to bring the community together through a consistent effort, combining cultural and social reflection with a focus on local issues, civic responsibility, gender issues, solidarity and more. There is presently no programming of this nature in Toronto.

3149 For these reasons, I would respectfully request that you approve this application so that we can begin our journey from "extremely disadvantaged" to "extremely productive".

3150 Thank you.

3151 MS McGLADE: Good morning, Commissioners.

3152 I would like to address several of the points raised by my colleague, Juan.

3153 As an English-speaking Canadian and high school teacher, I meet people from a multitude of lands and I have learned that as newcomers to a new land, and often a new language, fear of the unknown and the desire to fit in are paramount to young and old alike.

3154 Funding cuts to education are a well-known fact, but it should also be mentioned that many of the programs that have been cut are ESL for the young and adult education classes for the mature student. These were the places where the new immigrant could have the time to learn a new language and be informed about Canadian society.

3155 Language is the key barrier and access to information in one's mother tongue would facilitate the integration of non-English-speaking immigrants into our multicultural society.

3156 Within the educational community in Toronto, many changes from school closings and literacy testing for graduation, to loss of special education classes are, in the main, not communicated to the home in the variety of languages present in a school.

3157 Demographically speaking, as Juan stated, there are at present 175,000 Spanish-speaking people in Toronto, many of whom come into contact with the education system, as either students, parents or guardians. How do they know which social services to access in times of need if there is a language barrier? How do they make the best decisions for the future of their children if there is a language barrier?

3158 Are parents aware that failure of the Grade 10 literacy test will result in non-graduation from high school? At present, 25 per cent of all Cental Americans between the ages of 20 to 25 are non-high school graduates. Our hope is to change this unacceptable statistic.

3159 There are several Spanish-language newspapers in Toronto, but no radio station with a predominantly Spanish-language program. This is the need that is crying out to be addressed.

3160 As parents have little time or opportunity to learn English, I have constantly seen a wall develop between students and their parents and it is not just generational. A community radio station will address local community services and local issues.

3161 We know that we must provide an opportunity for people to hear and discuss local issues and to reflect upon changes that may affect their futures and their children's. Our radio station will fill this void in Toronto and bring those who are shut out of mainstream society because of language into our community, city and country. Our hope, however utopian, is to be the conduit through which positive change for the Spanish-speaking community can happen.

3162 Thank you.

3163 MR. BRIONES: Good morning.

3164 We are proposing an alternative programming in four foreign languages, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and Tagalo, and two official languages, distributed in 126-weekly-hours transmission.

3165 Our programming will reflect attitudes, opinions, ideas, values and artistic creativity of the different cultures that are represented in these four social groups.

3166 The nature of a radio is its link to the community it serves. Our purpose is to build a relationship that will build a bridge between radio and the community, allowing the participation of all those willing to communicate. The outcome will be personal and community development, especially for newcomers who are expecting to be welcomed, and become productive members of the society.

3167 Programming content will focus on the integration of different cultures, offering a greater scope where words and music become bridges between people and places.

3168 Following are examples of the basic content:

3169 (1) news analysis of current topics in Latin American;

3170 (2) local upcoming events;

3171 (3) forum for community groups;

3172 (4) sports discussions by local experts;

3173 (5) in-depth interviews on topics such as educational issues, women's issues, drugs and substance abuse issues, immigration issues, housing, childhood and adolescence issues, citizen involvement, and acceptance and appreciation of multiculturalism.

3174 The tuning habits of listeners, especially among Latin American people, require a continuity of content, a feature that current Spanish programs do not provide. Most listeners are tuning into the radio while simultaneously preparing breakfast, working or returning home for dinner. It is during these hours that radio programs have the most powerful opportunity to entertain, accompany and communicate.

3175 As well as basic programming, our station will develop and promote new talent, annual music contests, annual writing contests for children and youth and artistic and creative performances.

3176 Ninety-five per cent of the radio station staff will be volunteers who will be encouraged to improve their skills through workshops and training courses. They will be managed by a radio station executive team, who will be responsible for coordinating and managing on-air programming and technical duties.

3177 The Spanish-speaking communities need an alternative radio, which will allow for feedback about their communication experience, discuss real and current problems and find common solutions.

3178 Our content will differ in style and substance from that provided by other GTA broadcasters, responding to the needs of thousands of families and communicated under an umbrella of solidarity, fellowship and cooperation.

3179 Thank you.


3180 MR. MARTINEZ: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

3181 The active participation in and the assistance of members with the many events and activities organized and promoted by the San Lorenzo Community Center provide us with a guideline to consider that the project of a community radio station will be enthusiastically and positively supported, encouraged and received by the wider community.

3182 We have the financial experience of 2001 where we began with a deficit of $3,599 and completed the year with a surplus of $29,042, having generated in the year 2000 a total income of $71,701 and in the year 2001 a total of $171,344.

3183 This reflects our capacity to increase revenues in addition to the management's ability to generate profit.

3184 While it is known that small business represents the backbone of the economy of this country, with the creation of a radio station we will provide greater opportunity for these businesses to gain exposure amongst the audience we are targeting, coupled with the demand for additional and improved products and services.

3185 This will result in additional employment and in taxes being generated for the different levels of government. The support of this radio station, along with the variety of programs it offers, will reach various segments and age groups, enabling small business campaigns to count on a reliable and concrete means of communication.

3186 With the creation of a radio station, we expect a varied source of revenue through the sale of ads and fundraising campaigns, both which will be managed by an experienced executive team.

3187 We have great confidence that this radio station will contribute positively to the community and as important is the knowledge that we will succeed because our central and greatest asset is the members of our community who bring to the table their wealth of knowledge, experience and talents.

3188 Thank you.

3189 MR. NICKERSON: Good morning.

3190 From a project management standpoint, the San Lorenzo Community Radio Station will need to address the following issues before going on air. These issues are infrastructure, staffing, policy, revenue and programming.

3191 Phase 1, Initiation, begins today with this official project proposal. This phase formally ends with your approval of our licence.

3192 Phase 2 of the project is the Planning phase and is already in motion. Our plans will be well laid out in time for the expected approval in January 2003. We will utilize the month of January to validate our plans against any CRTC directives. The planning phase will be finalized by our board approval process.

3193 Phase 3 is the Project Plan Execution. We will have five tracks developing simultaneously:

3194 (1) staffing, including needs analysis, recruitment and training;

3195 (2) policy development, which will feed the staffing training as well as the operational standards;

3196 (3) revenue production with the assistance of a professional fundraiser;

3197 (4) programming development; and

3198 (5) infrastructure, including the tower, transmitter and studio.

3199 Based on best practices from other community-based radio station start-ups, we expect to have all systems ready to test by August of next year. A successful audit from our consultant will signal the end of the development phase.

3200 Phase 4 is a Testing phase where daily live one-hour broadcasts will be sent out to test equipment and programming. This testing phase will be a month long and will end in time for an official launch in September 2003. This phase will end based on successful operational metrics from our quality management team.

3201 Phase 5 is Operational Handoff and Project Closure, where the start-up activities are completed, evaluated and replaced with operational practices. The official end of the project will be within a month of going on air and will include a best practices report submitted to the CRTC.

3202 Thank you.

3203 BISHOP TOTTENHAM: Good morning, Commissioners.

3204 I have worked with Father Hernan Astudillo for the past five years in my capacity as Anglican Bishop of the Credit Valley region of Toronto. During this time I have seen his and the community center's commitment to and passion for assisting those who are in need within the Latino community here in Toronto.

3205 I have also witnessed their tireless efforts in soliciting assistance, both financial and other, for those who have been devastated by natural disasters in Central America. The wealth and richness of their artistic and creative talents are exhibited by the many festivals and concerts they host throughout the year.

3206 I should add that I have been a judge at La Chola Cuencna Festival. I have hands-on experience.

3207 I fully endorse the Latin American Community Center's endeavours to create a Latin American Community Radio station in Toronto. I believe the creation of such a radio station will provide a powerful and dynamic vehicle to support immigrants and other segments of the community whose needs are not presently being catered to.

3208 In addition, I believe this radio station will greatly contribute to and positively influence the cultural mosaic in Toronto.

3209 Thank you.

3210 FATHER ASTUDILLO: The San Lorenzo Community Center record speaks for itself. We are not only talking about promoting Canadian content and diversity; we are doing it.

3211 We have the vision, the commitment, the passion and the resources to succeed.

3212 As you watch this video, imagine what the community can do with the radio station.

3213 Thank you. Merci. Gracias.

3214 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Father Astudillo, and your colleagues.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

3215  THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo, please.

3216 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome all of you.

3217 I take it this is the first hearing before the CRTC for most of you. Maybe I will just take a minute and remind you of what the process is here. The decisions that we made at the end of the day are going to be -- at this end of this process are going to be based on the application that you submitted, the letters of support, or non-support, the communication, the letters you had with staff before now and then this discussion and the rest of the proceeding.

3218 So what we are doing here is just to fill the gaps in a sense. We have a lot of information. If there are issues we don't cover it's not because we are not concerned about them. It's just that we have that information.

3219 This isn't an interrogation so you shouldn't feel like you are being interrogated, but we really want to get as much information and it's in your best interest to give us as much information as you can to make the decisions we need to at the end.

3220 I think what I will is pose the questions generally and you can decide who among you will answer them, but before I do that, do you mind if I ask you just to introduce yourselves again, perhaps just say what your role is with the proposed radio station.

3221 FATHER ASTUDILLO: Father Hernan Astudillo. I am the Chairman of the San Lorenzo Community Centre.

3222 MR. CARRANZA: My name is Juan Carranza, and I am a member of the board for the community centre.

3223 MR. BRIONES: My name is Rodrigo Briones. I am a radio producer. I am a member of the board.

3224 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you would be a producer with the station?

3225 MR. BRIONES: Yes.


3227 MR. SANCHEZ: My name is Pedro Sanchez, also a radio and televIsion journalist. I am a member of the board and I also will be involved with anywhere from recruitment, training, right to programming.

3228 MS McGLADE: My name is Linda McGlade. I am a member of the board as well.

3229 MR. MARTINEZ: My name is Jose Martinez. I am an accountant. I am the treasurer of the board.

3230 BISHOP TOTTENHAM: My name is Anne Tottenham. I am the local Bishop and I will have absolutely nothing at all to do with the radio station, other than off-scene support.

--- Laughter / Rires

3231 MR. PLUNKETT: My name is Wayne Plunkett. I am the broadcasting consultant helping them to prepare the application and carry on with the whole process.

3232 MR. NICKERSON: I am David Nickerson and I will be project manager and assisting in project development.

3233 MS MARON: I am Michelle Maron and I will be a volunteer at the radio station.

3234 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry, what was your last name? Michelle...?

3235 MS MARON: Maron, M-A-R-O-N.

3236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Great. Okay, thank you.

3237 What I will do is cover, I guess four basic areas which we will go through. We will start with programming, talk a bit about an economic analysis both of the community and the application. We will talk a bit about the board structure and then some technical issues.

3238 As I say feel free to give us as much as you can, and however feels they should be answering the questions.

3239 Let me start by asking you how you picked the languages. Now, I understand it's a Latin American community centre. When you decided which languages you were going to cover you picked Spanish being the first with 60 per cent of the programming, Tagalo, Italian and Portuguese is 5 per cent each. So what went into your decision-making as to those levels?

3240 MR. CARRANZA: There were a couple of factors that were considered when making the decision. The Latin American community centre right now as it stands already includes a number of other communities which participate in some of the cultural events and the festivals that we have been organizing for years.

3241 The Brazilian Portuguese-speaking community has participated in our festivals and has expressed already a desire to be involved in this effort as well.

3242 The Italian community was included even though we know that they are presently served by other ethnic radios in Toronto. Because where we are presently located there is a high density of Italian speakers and they have also participated in the many activities that we presently have in the community centre.

3243 We included Filipino because of historical ties with the Latin American community and because of the fact that we consider it to be one of the community groups that is also underserved by radio. That's the reason why we included those three groups.

3244 If you need more information in terms of the names of different members of those communities, we are happy to provide you with that, the positions they hold, and the degree of involvement that they hope to have with the radio if the licence is granted.

3245 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what was your reasoning between the 25 per cent English and 5 per cent French?

3246 MR. CARRANZA: Our understanding was in fact that it was a required aspect of the application that we have programming in both official languages as well. That was one of the aspects. The other aspect had to do with integration of the community, that we feel that it has to be a vehicle in which the Latin American community gets a different kind of exposure to Canadian society.

3247 We have encountered throughout the different work that we do that there are people in our community who have been in Canada for 20 years plus and speak very limited English. So this is in part an effort to integrate them and bring them into the mainstream.

3248 MR. SANCHEZ: So there is an educational element that we thought was extremely important in including not just the English, but also the French. A lot of our community also often finds itself arriving in Canada, in Quebec, and then there is a trend of migration towards Toronto after months or years of living in Quebec.

3249 So we thought that that was important on that level, and education level I will underline as well.


3250 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As far as I know there isn't a requirement for the official languages, but I will take the second part of your answer as a yes.

3251 Now, one of the things we look to in terms of picking an ethnic station and a market is to look at what gaps you are filling. So, for example, which communities are not getting served currently, with in this case the six radio stations that are here or any other ethnic programming from other radio stations.

3252 I gather that wasn't part of your decision -- well, the Spanish part is. You are saying there isn't enough Spanish programming, but the other languages there is not a lot of Tagalo, but there is a fair amount of Italian and Portuguese.

3253 Can you respond to that? Did I just answer my question that you are looking at Spanish as the underrserved part of the market?

3254 MR. CARRANZA: I think it is correct that the main focus would be Spanish. However, Tagalo is another language that is underserved.

3255 With Portuguese it's an interesting thing. As you know, just geographically, Brazil is also part of Latin America and there is a strong Brazilian community here in Toronto. That is, we feel, because of their participation in our festivals, the Caporrera group, for example, to date are not necessarily -- their voices aren't necessarily being heard in the existing Portuguese radio efforts that are there.

3256 So more than anything it is Portuguese language, but we are talking primarily about a Brazilian community.

3257 MR. SANZHEZ: In terms of the Italian and the decision for the Italian, I think that there was a very strong impulse that we had to include Italian, although Italian arguably is extremely well served by commercial and other media.

3258 We felt that there was a large component of the Italian community, perhaps a lower income component of the Italian community which looks to a more community-based and a more grassroots approach, a more participatory way of doing communications and media. We found that not only through the work of the San Lorenzo Community Centre, but also in some of the work that some of us has done in the media and in communications in Toronto. So we thought it was important to include Italian as well.

3259 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And in terms of the San Lorenzo church, what is your sense, or what is the population of the Latin American community in terms of Catholics and Anglicans, or is that an issue for your centre and the radio station?

3260 FATHER ASTUDILLO: This is an issue for the San Lorenzo Community Centre. All issues are not in a religious context. I am the priest and one of the things I think in this millennium, we have tended to encourage the evangelization. We need to go towards the humanization in all communities.

3261 Canada and Toronto, it is a beautiful country. This country gave me the opportunity to grow and to share the light, the opportunity I did not have in my country. I believe profoundly here it is not a religious context. It is more an education and the integration here.

3262 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the people who interact at the centre right now are not doing it on a religious basis, but more on a cultural linguistic basis?

3263 FATHER ASTUDILLO: Yes, it is. And cultural integration, like you say.

3264 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I just go to Schedule 7 of your application where you talk about some of the specific programs that you had. I want to get a bit of sense of some of the programs that you are offering to give us a bit more of a feel for your station.

3265 Do you have Schedule 7? It is the one-pager. Either that or this other page that has a few descriptions.

3266 The first one you have listed on Sunday from 6:00 to 2:00 is:

"Multicultural Sunday Magazine Weekly

Most important news, live interviews, music special reports..." (As read)

3267 Then it says "religious" in the different languages.

3268 Can you tell me overall what that is? It is a fair amount of time. What would you be doing during that time.

3269 MR. SANCHEZ: I think the strength of that programming slot is diversity and trying to reach the goal of really showing the diversity, not only within the Latin American community, but within the community that will be engaged in the community radio station.

3270 What we foresee for that eight hour slot of programming is a real variety in format, musical as well as panel discussions.

3271 You can see on the schedule that accompanies it that there will be different languages at different times. That is our plan at this point.

3272 We will be having, of course, discussions, opening the phone lines as well to the audience.

3273 Diversity is really the key in that.

3274 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. You have a long morning show. Are these different languages going to be every week at the same time? How would somebody who doesn't speak Spanish but only speaks Tagalo know when to listen?

3275 MR. SANCHEZ: It will be scheduled. It will be a detailed schedule so those people will know whatever time of the day on a particular day of the week their language will be heard on our radio station.

3276 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So is it general news and current affairs?

3277 MR. SANCHEZ: For that slot, I would call it that, but there would be, I think, a considerable amount of music.

3278 One of the things that we are relying on heavily is also the participation of local talent, not just recorded music, but actually having in-studio, live music as well.

3279 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The religious is part of that overall block or is it the whole block?

3280 MR. SANCHEZ: I would say that it is only part. It is certainly not something that will be there throughout the block. It will be a segment of it.

3281 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The "Just News" from 7:00 to 9:00, a couple of points down, is a similar sort of news to the morning and then --

3282 MR. SANCHEZ: The "Just News" will be just that. We hope to be able to provide people who have family back home in different Latin American countries with also syndicated programs as well as live interviews.

3283 One of the things about community radio that is wonderful is the live aspect of it and the fact that one does have the technology to simply put people on the phone from faraway places and give the information to people at home directly.

3284 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A few points down, Monday to Friday 10:00 to 12:00:


Radio Magazine to report about..." (As read)

3285 And you named a number of issues.

3286 Who would host that show? Who would produce it?

3287 MR. SANCHEZ: Rodrigo and I have been the ones most involved directly with trying to develop the programming. What you see in front of you is what we have come up with so far.

3288 We are both radio hosts currently. We also have approximately 20 journalists, serious journalists from different regions of our community who are ready to go, who are ready to participate in this program. As has been mentioned already, we will be relying heavily on volunteer work and we will have a training and recruitment plan for those volunteers.

3289 But certainly in terms of the group that is here, Rodrigo and myself are seasoned hosts and producers and we are relying on about 20 other journalists in the community who are ready to go.

3290 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you are dealing with different issues, like you have here "additions, AIDS, unemployment", et cetera, would you be having interviews?

3291 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes. Also again relying on -- one of the things is that the Latin American community has a wealth of social workers, of people who work on the front lines directly, whether it be women who are suffering violence, whether it be youths are exposed to drugs and alcohol, whether it is violence in the home or in the schools.

3292 We have a real wealth of people in our community centres who are usually looking for any opportunity to disseminate the information that is necessary to get to people who are in need under those kinds of issues. In include immigration and refugee needs as well in that.

3293 So we will be relying heavily on the resources in our community.

3294 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you have a phone-in component?

3295 MR. SANCHEZ: Absolutely. I think the phone-in part will make a component -- we will include that as a component wherever possible and wherever we are able to, even in the musical part of the program. The phone-in will be an essential part of giving it a real participatory character.

3296 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just on the phone-in, you are familiar with our policies on phone-ins?

3297 MR. SANCHEZ: With the time delay and the phone screening?


3299 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes.

3300 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are prepared to adhere to those?

3301 MR. SANCHEZ: We have some experience with that, yes.

3302 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: At the end of the day Monday to Friday you have sports programming. Is that related to some of the core issues, or is that more an entertainment?

3303 MR. SANCHEZ: I think it would be both. I mean, one of the things that we have here as well in Toronto is a wealth of tournaments of all ages, particularly in soccer, but also in other sports. We also have a community that is very attracted to, whether it be the European or South American soccer. But there are also issues that are related to sports such as substance as well, corruption in the Olympic Committees, things that are of great interest to the community as well.

3304 So there will be a combination of both, updating people and actual results of sports, but also other social or political issues related to sports.

3305 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How would this differ from a sports station, other than the language?

3306 MR. SANCHEZ: Most sports stations in Canada don't focus on the sports that are of interest to the Latin American community. We get a lot of hockey and football and other things like that, which I think many Latinos enjoy, but soccer, football as we know it, is absolutely one that is under-represented.

3307 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That would be local?

3308 MR. SANCHEZ: Pardon?

3309 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You would be covering local and international?

3310 MR. SANCHEZ: Local and international as well, yes, because there is a real interest in both the European and the South American tournament. But there is a big growth in the local tournaments that are happening in Toronto as well amongst all ages and both sexes.

3311 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Towards the end of that page you talk about the talent show from 4:00 to 7:00 on Saturdays. For example there are a couple of other music shows. How would you run those?

3312 MR. SANCHEZ: I think the selection of the judges would be something that would be, again, very community driven. We would look for people in the community who are not directly connected to the radio station, to the board or to the Latin American Community Centre. We would be looking for those people to be the decision-makers in any kind of contest, whether it is the talent show or whether it is other forms of contests that we might organize.

3313 We would have a huge solicitation through the radio station as well as through community centres that we are in touch with to invite people to participate in that kind of talent show. We would have literary talent shows, musical talent shows, anything that can be expressed through the radio. That will limit us a little bit. Obviously in television you can do a lot more.

3314 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How much of that would be local music by local musicians and how much of it would be spinning disks of Ricki Martin and JLo and others?

3315 MR. SANCHEZ: I think the vast majority of it would be local.


3317 MR. SANCHEZ: Local. Trying to promote local.

3318 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But you would be doing some of the others, the international stars as well?

3319 MR. SANCHEZ: In terms of talent, there is a whole world of DJ-ing, which is now a competitive world as well. So I think if we do a talent show and we are doing a showcase of DJs, then it becomes an issue of what the DJs select to play.

3320 But in terms of talent in the community, musical talent in the community, it would be local. The idea would be to promote and to hopefully spur local talent to move forward and to go on.

3321 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My next question, and in a sense we have covered it by going through the schedule, but I will just give it to you all the same and see if you want to just summarize on the topic of programming.

3322 My question was simply to the effect of: How do radio stations help the issues facing the community? You talked about the challenges facing the Latin American community, new immigrants, income issues, employment, education, single parenthood, youth, et cetera, et cetera.

3323 Could you just summarize for me, then, what we have talked about, how this radio station makes a difference.

3324 MR. CARRANZA: I can tell you just from my experience. In my own practice as a lawyer working with the Latin American community and other communities here in North York is that there is a huge vacuum of information that people don't have any access to any resources for some of the most basic things.

3325 Linda McGlade, in her presentation, talked about parents not knowing that if their children fail the Grade 10 literacy test that they will actually fail the year and that they can't graduate from high school. Important information like that somehow is not being communicated to the communities.

3326 We find a vacuum of information in the area of immigration, in the area of finances, in the area of home purchases, real estate, landlord and tenant issues and issues of health, access to HIV clinics, sex education, the issue of violence in the home, the issue of gang violence. We heard another presenter this week make reference to that in these hearings.

3327 It is unfortunate to have to mention it today, but in fact Father Astudillo today is here present, but in addition to being here he was supposed to have been at a funeral for a 17-year-old Salvadorian boy who was shot this week here in Toronto.

3328 The problems of our community are very real. These are not problems that are imagined. They are more than statistical. These are problems that touch us directly.

3329 We have heard, in the participation of other groups, a lot about having -- I forget the term -- an advisory group to advise as to what is the content that the community wishes.

3330 This is not a team of business people who are presenting a business proposal. This is a community group. We are the community. We are not the only members of the community, but we are in touch with the community and the issues that affect our lives.

3331 We have seen through our participation and community radio the different efforts that have been made throughout the years with CKLM, CHRY and CIUT, as it used to be. At the present time there is only half an hour of Spanish-language programming in each one of those radio stations. That makes it almost impossible to maintain a regular radio audience.

3332 If you listen to any of those programs, those programs, in fact within the 30 minutes that they are allotted, try to pack them with information about all of these issues that we are talking about. We constantly see people coming back and asking for that type of information. So we know that the needs are very real.

3333 We made reference in our presentation to the report of Professor Michael Ornestein. This is a report that was commissioned by the City of Toronto. So it is not a report that this group of people has prepared for this presentation. It shows some very disturbing trends within the Latin American community. In fact, some of the indicators show that the conditions for the Latin American community, in fact as it relates to education and graduating from high school, has actually worsened from 1991 to 1996.

3334 We know that the needs are very real, so we are hoping that through having a wider space that we can reach more people in the community and to assist in dealing with those problems and hopefully turn people into being more productive.

3335 One last comment I am going to make about that, is -- and unfortunately I don't have anything to back it up with, to support it, but it has been reported in the newspapers here in Toronto -- that the Latin American community has one of the largest percentages of unemployed professionals from Latin America living here.

3336 These are people that either for language or cultural reasons have not been able to integrate themselves or get the necessary credentials to practise their craft, their profession, here in Ontario and in Toronto in particular.

3337 These are urgent needs that the community has. And you know what? We have a great contribution to make to this country. We are confident of this.

3338 We were talking about soccer. There is a Salvadorian right now playing in the Canada under-20 national team. It might sound like a crazy thing, being Latin American and getting passionate about the game, but right now soccer is the fastest growing sport in Canada. In fact, there are more kids playing soccer right now in Canada than playing hockey. Hockey is a great sport; my kids love it. But all five of them also play soccer.

3339 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. Now you are making me feel bad that my kids are not in soccer. Normally I am driving to the ice rink. I am on the wrong track.

3340 MR. CARRANZA: It's never too late.

3341 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for that answer.

3342 There are a lot of problems in the world, and if people are making a linkage between the problems in society and radio, it is important to try and articulate that as clearly as possible. Today you have really done that. So thanks for that.

3343 In terms of the size of the population, your estimate is that it is about 400,000 Latinos?

3344 MR. CARRANZA: It's 175,000 in the Toronto region.


3346 MR. CARRANZA: One thing I am not certain about with the numbers is whether that includes the Latino population of Mississauga and Brampton. That might push the number up to 200,000.

3347 How we arrived at the number was using the figures from the 1996 Census and looking at the rate of growth that the Latin American community had from 1991 to 1996. All we did was extrapolate that growth from 1996 to 2002.

3348 So we took that same percentage, and I know it is the same approach that was taken by previous groups that had percentage. The number is 175,000.

3349 As we sit here, we are not certain whether those numbers include the Latin American Spanish-speaking population of both Brampton and Mississauga.

3350 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The immigration pattern has been similar, you think, between 1991 and 1996 and the next five years?

3351 MR. SANCHEZ: No. It's different in character, different in terms of where people are coming from. But I would say it is not different in numbers, no.

3352 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Most of the Latin American community came in what, the post 1975 or 1980 era?

3353 MR. SANCHEZ: In the 1970s it was mostly a Chilean migration that happened, and throughout the 1980s it was mostly Central American. In the 1990s there has been an increase in South Americans coming.

3354 MR. CARRANZA: Eduardo Deri(ph), who I believe works for the Hispanic Canadian Congress -- and their Executive Director will come and make a presentation at a later stage in the proceedings.

3355 Eduardo Deri(ph), who is an anthropologist, I believe, did a study of that data. His conclusion is that the Latin American immigration to Canada has come in waves.

3356 He talked about the Iberian immigration initially, which was the Spaniards who came in the fifties and the beginning of the sixties. Then we had another wave of people who came in the late sixties, and they came primarily from the Andean Region of Ecuador.

3357 Then you have what he called the "Coup" wave, which is the people that came from the countries in the southern corner of Latin America, Argentina, Uruguay and Chile, who came during the era of the coups in Latin American, which was the beginning of the seventies.


3359 MR. CARRANZA: In the late seventies, beginning of the eighties, you have the wave from Central America, which is when I came. You had people from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua coming.

3360 More recently we have seen a wave of migrants primarily from Columbia, still from Central America and from the Caribbean nations that speak Spanish, Cuba and the Dominican Republic.

3361 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So is it fair to say that now there are not many people who would be claiming refugee status from Latin American countries?

3362 MR. CARRANZA: I can assure you, having practised in that area, that has very little to do with the numbers of people who may wish to make this application. It has more to do with the present state of immigration and refugee laws.

3363 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My question is more: At the moment we are not seeing refugees but largely immigrant, family reunification.

3364 MR. CARRANZA: We are seeing an increased number of family reunification situations, but we continue to see a large number of refugees coming in particular from Columbia where they are still suffering from civil war, problems with drugs, et cetera.

3365 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How do you see the pattern of immigration over the next five to ten years?

3366 MR. CARRANZA: If we were to speak purely in terms of political turmoil, which has in some respects fuelled some of the waves of migration to Canada, we don't see that as changing very much.

3367 We continue to see strife in El Salvador.

3368 We see it in southern Mexico, which is a country that I ignored to mention, but it is an important one where we have seen increased migration in the late 1990s, certainly since the Sandinistas came into being.

3369 Not much hope is seen right now from the situation in Columbia.

3370 Just from the refugee angle, we would expect the migration flow to continue increasing.

3371 In fact, right now the Latin American community has been deemed the fastest growing ethnic group in Canada, and projections are that by 2016 there is going to be over 600,000 Spanish speakers.

3372 MR. PLUNKETT: Commissioner, if I may add, I am a long-time native of Toronto but I have actually done a lot of travelling in Latin America. I guess that is why I was attracted to this group when we I happen to cross paths with Father Hernan in the Toronto CRTC office a few months ago.

3373 It so happens I have been in Latin America many times when things have been in a hot situation, either politically or natural disasters, and so on. I have been in the back alleys of Bogota and Lima and Rio, so I can appreciate the economic and social conditions in Latin America maybe a bit more than most native born Canadians.

3374 I just want to let you know that I think that is a factor in my motive to drive this application.

3375 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you one of the potential 600,000 Latin-speaking people?

3376 I understand your application. You have applied under our ethnic policy and the community, which is non-profit essentially, policy. But you haven't applied as a religious station.

3377 MR. CARRANZA: That's because we are not. We were very conscious of this, coming here.

3378 Father Hernan Astudillo has been such a powerful image in the community. For many years other members of the community have had the idea of coming here before you.

3379 As you stated at the beginning, this is the first time we are here. But the process seemed overwhelming, even scary for us.

3380 Our inspiration, if you will, comes from the courage of this person here. The needs are real of the community. The needs I would say -- and I don't mean any disrespect to Father Hernan, but I think most of us would be in agreement -- are not religious. The needs that we have are real human needs that we have already talked about, the different factors that are covered such as this one, and the others that are not covered that we see on a day to day basis.

3381 BISHOP TOTTENHAM: Could I add, Commissioner, that the Anglican Church does not see this as their radio station. In fact, we have made it quite clear to the community board that we are not funding or having any involvement other than Hernan's church has become the hub of this community centre.

3382 This is not seen by us as religious broadcasting in any way.

3383 FATHER ASTUDILLO: In my personal experience since I became a street musician and I was crying because I am an immigrant who couldn't have any money so I take my guitar and my pamphlets and live on the street.

3384 After that I was accepted by the TTC and I am still a TTC musician where we are close to 80 groups of different cultures. I believe profoundly that the love of life is a precious gift in the diversity. In this country I had the opportunity to share with different religions.

3385 One of the greatest gifts we did inherit is to share with the Jewish, Muslims. At the time when we do not have a hope, it is precious to work towards the hope of life. Some of my friends, they said to me, I am not religious; I am atheist. And that is a good gift too, to be atheist because we need an essential voice of education in our Spanish community.

3386 From my point of view, it is not a religion issue. It is a human issue.

3387 One of the good gifts I have received, some people say to me you don't have money to develop those things, but I explain I own something which is more than $1 million.

3388 I know that in my Spanish-speaking community we have a lot of problems, a lot of division. One of the main problems we have is with the earthquakes in Salvador, and we built some beautiful things. And one of the main things is the trust. That trust is giving me the strongest will to start doing something for this community, who are my people.


3390 Let me talk a little bit about the condition of licence issues.

3391 You are planning to do four languages besides English and French, and in your June 4th letter you had agreed to that as a condition of licence, saying that you would accept a condition of licence indicating that you would provide four languages.

3392 I want to take it a little further, because we are exploring whether we should be more specific.

3393 We have a couple of possibilities.

3394 In your application you had indicated that you would be 75 per cent ethnic programming and 75 per cent third language programming.

3395 What I am asking is: Would you accept a condition of licence that you would either say, in addition to the four languages, that 60 per cent would be Spanish where we would name the language; or that 75 per cent -- I am looking at a couple of options.

3396 One is 60 per cent Spanish, there being a total of four languages; or in fact we would say four languages composed of 75 per cent, composed of Spanish, Tagalo, Italian and Portuguese.

3397 My question isn't all that clear.

3398 MR. SANCHEZ: Is the question whether we would comply with the request?


3399 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No. Would you accept a condition of licence that would name the languages and the percentages?

3400 What you have agreed to so far is it just saying four languages without naming them and that it would be 75 per cent ethnic besides third language.

3401 What I am saying is: Can we take that a step further and name the four languages?

3402 MR. SANCHEZ: Absolutely.

3403 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In effect, is it 75 per cent ethnic programming, or is it more like 100 per cent ethnic programming?

3404 Even the English part, is that ethnic meaning it is targeted towards ethnic communities? It doesn't have to be a specific one. If it is English, it would be various communities.

3405 MR. CARRANZA: You know, in the English language our target audience continues to be our community. Maybe that is a distinction that we should make.

3406 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. So in this case we are talking about 100 per cent ethnic programming.

3407 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, it would be. But 25 per cent would be in the two official languages.

3408 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask about local programming.

3409 I understand all of the 126 hours would be local produced, or would you have programming coming from outside Canada?

3410 MR. SANCHEZ: Sorry, could you repeat the question, please. I missed the first part of it.

3411 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would all of your programming be local programming, or would any of it be coming from outside Canada?

3412 MR. SANCHEZ: Our impulse would be to have almost exclusively local programming produced here at home by volunteers and by the journalists that are involved in the radio station.

3413 At the same time, we are very much aware of syndicated programs that exist, especially in Latin America, which would fit the nature of the character of what we are trying to accomplish at the radio station.

3414 I am not talking about say the equivalence of say the BBC or Deutsch Vela type syndicated programs. I am speaking more of projects through things like AMARC, which is the Association mondiale des radios communautaires, World Community Radio Broadcasters Association, which has a huge network across the world, in fact, including Africa, Asia and Latin America, where syndicated programs are produced by local producers, say in Bolivia or Ecuador or Ghana, and they get syndicated throughout the world, sometimes translated and syndicated.

3415 We would love to think that one day we can syndicate a program from Toronto that will be heard in South Africa or in Argentina. We would love very much to become part of that global family of community broadcasters.

3416 There is also specifically an organization in Latin America called ALER, which is Asociación Latinoamericana de Educación Radiofónica, which is Radio Education Latin American Association, and what they do again is they produce programs for syndication and they rely on local programmers throughout the region to produce programs for syndication which are again focused primarily on education of communities, on issues that are usually enjoyed by commercial interest radio.

3417 So it's sort of a dual answer. Yes, we want to very much focus on local programming, but rely on specific kind of syndicated programming towards the future.

3418 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And this is not the Top 20 --

3419 MR. SANCHEZ: No, no, absolutely not.

3420 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's not a father and son -- "Julio and Enrique see the world".

3421 MR. CARRANZA: We certainly won't carry it.


3423 MR. PLUNKETT: Commissioner, may I just say just to explain? We are sorry that Bishop Tottenham had to leave, but she is going to a meeting with another famous Bishop, Bishop Tutu, Honorary Citizen of Canada. So her time is sort of scrunched this morning.

3424 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for that.

3425 Could you give us a percentage that would be local?

3426 MR. SANCHEZ: The vast majority, I would say above 90 per cent. Certainly at first, as we make links with some of the --

3427 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could we say, I mean if you were to get the licence could we say a minimum of 90 per cent will be local?

3428 MR. SANCHEZ: Absolutely.

3429 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: For your other language segments, who will be the producers there and can you give us a sense of what the program would be like? Would it be the same as --

3430 MR. SANCHEZ: We would love to have those people with us here today to give you the specifics or the details, but I think I can give you a general sense.

3431 We have a number of, particularly women in the Filipino community, in the Tagalo community. The women of the Filipino community, as some of the Commissioners might know, are extremely active in educating their own community about some of the issues that they face as newcomers to this country. Many of them come in as live-in caregivers and a lot of the issues that they are involved in -- there is a huge network.

3432 The Philippine Women's Organization is sort of a national network that deals with this. We have quite close contact with them. Mary Aquino is one of the people that we are working with, and Punta de Alasco is another that we have been in contact with about this project specifically, but these are people that we have been working with in the long term in the community.

3433 In terms of the Italian community, we have some contact primarily with John Montassano. He is currently one of the programming executives at Telelatino Network, but somebody that a few of us have had experience with over the years as well, myself at community radio level.

3434 We feel that with the Italian programming, what we will probably be looking at is programming directed at Italian news. That's where the strength of a lot of the people that we are in touch with is and again it is, I think, reflective of somewhat of a marginalization that exists as a result of the nature of the commercial radio and television that most Italians have here in Toronto.

3435 There is a significant number of young people who are trying to both retain their Italian language as Italian-Canadians, but also try to perhaps build a path that is different from that of which is being presented in the mainstream media.

3436 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On Telelatino, to what extent does Telelatino provide Spanish-language programming that meets the kind of needs that you are planning to fulfil?

3437 MR. CARRANZA: The programming that Telelatino has in Spanish to begin with is very limited. The local content of the programming is even more limited. In fact, I'm aware of one television program that seeks to address some of these issues, but it's only one television program. The rest of the programming, and as we understand the most popular ones, are the soap operas and the news from Latin America and the sports section.

3438 A lot of the other programming that is offered presently on Telelatino comes from the United States.

3439 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My thought is more there isn't an overlap in terms of the planning that is already there.

3440 MR. CARRANZA: No, we don't see it as an overlap. I guess the first thing is that in order to access Telelatino you have to have a cable. So for many members of our community it might be hard to imagine, but it is an access issue.

3441 Secondly, there is only one program that I am aware of, and it's a weekly program that they have, and there is a weekly one-hour program. That's about it.

3442 MR. SANCHEZ: I just want to underline also the fact of the participatory nature of what we are trying to create, something in which the community is not only an audience, but also a participant, direct hands-on participant in the programming. This is one of the big missions that we are trying to accomplish, and I think that really sets us apart from commercial, including Telelatino.

3443 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. That's my next question in terms of volunteers. You plan to have 95 per cent of the station's staff will be volunteers. Is that correct?

3444 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes.

3445 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And who will be running the station?

3446 MR. SANCHEZ: There will be an executive committee. There will be a staff which will be running the station. There will be volunteers at every level, including in recruitment and training. I know that for myself, I will be volunteering my time to training and to recruitment.

3447 One of the things that I have always found amazing in the community radio environment that I sort of was brought up in the media here in Toronto, beginning in 1989, was as Juan mentioned, the spaces where Spanish programming happens on these community stations is minimal, but the extent to which those half-hour slots have attracted huge numbers of people to the radio station, people who come to learn how to operate the board, people who come to just read the news on the air, and then there is, of course, the other tier of people who want to do interviews and things like that.

3448 So what I was just trying to say is that although the spaces have been limited, the amount of people that those spaces have attracted, both as audience, as people who call in and people who actually physically show up at the radio station. What I found in my 12 or so years of experience with community radio is that it became a bit of a community centre. The radio station suddenly got sort of taken over by people from our community for that half-hour or 45-minute period. It became a place where people meet and where people engage each other, organize, and things like that.

3449 So I think that that, coupled with the experience that the San Lorenzo Community Centre has in the festivals that have been organized, the amount of people from our communities that come out just to be present at events, we really feel that there is a real volunteer force in waiting.

3450 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How many fulltime staff do you see?

3451 MR. MARTINEZ: We are talking only about two fulltime -- no fulltime. It's going to be part-time. It's going to be the operator.


3453 MR. MARTINEZ: One secretary assistant in the office two hours a day.

3454 MR. CARRANZA: When you look at 95 per cent of volunteers and you look at the very modest budget that we have in order to do it, you might think: Are these people able to pull it off?

3455 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's where I am heading.

3456 MR. CARRANZA: The reason why we have started modest is that we want to side with what we know we can do.

3457 The San Lorenzo Community Centre comes to the CRTC, comes to this hearing not from a position of never having done any of the things it proposes to do. In fact, you have a body of people with extensive experience in community radio, exactly what we are proposing to do.

3458 We have a group of people who are deeply committed to the values of the CRTC, the focus on local issues, the promotion of local talent. It's not something that we want to do because we think it's something nice. It's something that we have been doing in the past, something that we are deeply committed to.

3459 In fact, when I met Pedro, it was around 1990 at CKLN and it's just a brief anecdote about my experience. At the time there was a Friday night Spanish, Latin American music radio show called Alma Latina, and we used to go on that evening to tape our show for the Sunday which was also an English-language program that covered Latin American issues. It was called "Central America This Week".

3460 One day we were there and she was getting so many calls on the phone for musical requests that she asked me to sit in. So we stopped our recording and I went to help out to field the telephone calls.

3461 You would be amazed. We received telephone calls from every sector, people that I didn't even know from different countries who lived here in Toronto. We got calls from the Don Jail and requests for music. I mean, that for me was a very telling experience.

3462 Since then, working as a volunteer for the community radio station, I saw the different programs that existed at the time turning people away who wanted to volunteer their time, people who had been radiobroadcasters in Ecuador, in Colombia, in Paraguay. I remember a guy from Chile who had been a journalist and he was also a musician, an accomplished musician. We couldn't fit these people in because we simply didn't have the space.

3463 I know it sounds difficult to imagine. You can speak to Pedro a little bit more about the difficulty of these people even having an opportunity to volunteer their time.

3464 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand that, and I think those are the benefits of volunteers and the strength they bring.

3465 Two of the challenges are that sometimes volunteers don't show for very important reasons, good reasons, or they have jobs, they have other challenges on particular days when they are supposed to show at six o'clock on Saturday to do the show.

3466 My first question is: What happens when a volunteer doesn't show? What is your plan B? The second question is: How do you plan to manage the station so that they follow the requirements of your licence, one of which is ensuring that you keep logs. Another is that they understand the issues of offensive content, not saying or entertaining things that are inappropriate on the air.

3467 MR. SANCHEZ: These are challenges that community radio stations that have been around for decades are still facing today.

3468 These are challenges that I think, from my experience at community radio, are never guaranteed that you are not going to get offensive language, that's somebody is not going to fill out their logs and that somebody is not going to show up. This happens with some of the most experienced community radio stations in Canada today.

3469 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But at a licence hearing you have to say that you are going to be the exception.

3470 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes, we are absolutely going to be the exception.

3471 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. That's the right answer.

3472 MR. SANCHEZ: I'm just underlining that it is a huge challenge, I agree with you, and I think that part of the plan B in terms of no-show needs to be some of the syndicated programs that we previously mentioned.

3473 The plan B also needs to be that the executive committee, the board of directors of the community centre as well as the radio station, need to be people who are fully committed which, from my experience, the people who are around the table today are. People who are also ready to get on the air to put music on.


3474 I mentioned earlier that we have about 20 journalists -- some of us are here at the table -- from Latin America who are some of them unemployed professionals as Juan has mentioned, people who are and were extremely talented and recognized in their countries, but who here literally have nothing more than either unemployment or maybe a taxi driver. These are people who are ready to commit time to the station and we feel that these are the people that will sort of form a sort of higher tier umbrella that will ensure --

3475 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So that if somebody doesn't show, there is someone else in the station who can pop the tape on.

3476 MR. SANCHEZ: There will be somebody at the station 24 hours, at least one person.

3477 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And on the issues of following regulations in terms of logs and offensive content, how do you plan to deal with that?

3478 MR. SANCHEZ: Only as ensuring that those are the -- one of the very first things at the top of the list is training and recruitment, but ensuring that those two things, for example, logs and offensive language are among the top things that people hear as soon as they approach the radio station and that we integrate that into the training, absolutely.

3479 MR. CARRANZA: Just for your information, I could also share with you that we have with us Rodrigo Briones who is a professor and an instructor of radio, graduated from the National University of Quio in Mendoza, Argentina. He is part of the team that will be putting together a comprehensive plan that seeks to accomplish two main objectives: One is the recruitment of talent for our programs, the recruitment of the staff, and secondly to make sure that the volunteers follow all the guidelines and all the different procedures that are required by the CRTC and also internally by the San Lorenzo community radio.

3480 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask you about spoken word programming? You have agreed that you would accept as a condition of licence that you would devote at least 25 per cent of your schedule to spoken word. Is that correct?

3481 Is that across the schedule? Is that in Spanish only or across?

3482 MR. CARRANZA: We see that as across the schedule, what we consider the --

3483 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Within each language program?

3484 MR. CARRANZA: Yes. When we consider the needs of the Tagalog speakers and the Italian and Portuguese as well, we feel that that will be -- and that is a minimum number.

3485 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If I can come back to religious program, what percentage of your programming would you say could be classified as religious programming?

3486 MR. CARRANZA: I believe it is less than 3 per cent and that the one program that actually touches on some religious issues is our Sunday Magazine, the one that we were talking about earlier.

3487 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Within religious, would it be a diversity of religious? Would it be Anglican and non-Anglican to begin with?

3488 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, it would be. It would be multi-faith. In fact, not only represented at this table we have perhaps -- we have 10 people, we probably have 10 different religious groups sitting at this table. That is also the make-up of the community board of the San Lorenzo Community Centre.

3489 We have people from all walks of life and some interesting anecdotes having a community from Lindsay, Christian, Evangelical, joining the community centre in our efforts to ship the buses to El Salvador and the community in San Lorenzo going and visiting that community in Lindsay.

3490 We have good relations with the Jewish community in the vicinity. In fact, you are going to have a speaker from the Jewish community come and endorse our application.

3491 From the Muslim community as well, we have had their participation in the Inti Raymi Festival. In fact, we had representatives from both the Jewish and Muslim community. For us it is not a religious thing, it is an effort to bring people together, not to create more barriers.

3492 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Under the ethnic policy one of the things we encourage is having an advisory committee. You have a board for the station. Is the board of the station different from the board of the centre?

3493 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, it is. But we haven't necessarily come up with an advisory board as such. We felt that the Board in itself was representative enough that we could do that. We have no difficultly, however, should that be a condition, to create such an advisory Board and we don't see it as a problem. There would be lots of people who would want to participate.

3494 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the board you have a diversity of people in terms of cultures and religions?

3495 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, we do

3496 MR. SANCHEZ: And also professions, journalists as well as people who are community workers, front-line workers, teachers. So there will be quite a diversity.

3497 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the kind of diversity that you have here today, the 10 of you, is the kind of representation that you are looking at.

3498 Are you a member of the board, Ms McGlade?

3499 MS McGLADE: Yes, I am.


3501 MR. CARRANZA: With respect to the board?


3503 MR. CARRANZA: The board itself, yes. In terms of the community, the San Lorenzo community that we have, the community base that we have, it is not as diverse as the community. Definitely there is more diversity in our community than we have here today.

3504 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The fund-raising that you have proposed is fairly similar to the fund-raising you are looking at for the centre. Do you plan to have a special fund-raising approach for the station separate from the centre?

3505 MR. CARRANZA: Yes. We plan to have a special fund-raising approach. We even have someone who would be in charge of coordinating the fund-raising campaign for the radio station. That is already in place.

3506 In addition to that, since the funding in the application, we have also approached a number of different businesses in the community who have already pledged their support for the radio station. When we reviewed our application, we recognized that the numbers that we had were very modest, like I said.

3507 Right now we have, just in pledges alone, $115,000 above and beyond what we have here on paper. That is just to give you an indication also about the degree of support for this particular initiative that we have.

3508 I know that the issue is going to come up as to whether we are taking the market away from some of the other radio stations, one of these stations that has Spanish programming. I can assure you that these are people who see in our program a completely different audience, a different market and the focus on the local programming which they recognize as being of a central nature.

3509 MR. NICKERSON: On the fund-raising item, I have been working with this community group for about a year now. I got inspired by, again, the leadership of Father Hernan about the needs in El Salvador. I flew down there this summer at my own expense to see the needs and to get further involved as a volunteer.

3510 We have been working recently as well with a professional fund-raiser who is giving us some excellent information and feedback and advice. Also, we have produced by him a document customized for our community that indicates people that we can approach as we continue to develop our vision statement, et cetera, for further support. Also, we have a Spanish business directory that is an excellent source for further support as well.

3511 So that would be part of our planning phase, to really nail that down and have a very effective process for making sure that the fund-raising for the radio is separate and distinct from the community centre.

3512 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. I also noticed, Mr. Nickerson, in your planning that we have to be attentive to your planning phase because you want to start Phase I by January, so that means we have to get our decision out before then, especially if it is positive for you.

3513 MR. NICKERSON: We believe in your expertise and competence very highly.

3514 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But I appreciate your directing us to make sure our decision is out by January so that you can start that process, should you be licensed I would add.

3515 MR. NICKERSON: Thank you.

3516 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is just a joke. I'm not telling you off.

3517 I need to just repeat this question on membership of the board. You have answered it, but I just want to put it in the context of the community centre's By-law No. 1, which states that:

"Members of the corporation shall consist of individuals that are Spanish-speaking and/or share and support the goals and objectives of the corporation." (As read)

3518 That approach, which is people who are members of the community and others would apply to the radio station as well I assume?

3519 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes.

3520 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A few technical questions.

3521 You are looking at AM 1610. This is the home stretch. We are almost done.

3522 Do you feel this is a good enough -- what you are applying for is the use of 1610 of 1,000 watts. Is it your sense that this is going to fulfil your needs?

3523 MR. PLUNKETT: If I might answer that one.

3524 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is the 1610 positioning on the dial easily accessible to most radios?

3525 MR. PLUNKETT: Yes. To answer the last part first, that is why we chose 1610. As you probably know, there are three AM frequencies in the expanded AM band more or less slotted for Toronto, 1610, 1650 and 1690.

3526 Because of what has been presented here, the economic situation, particularly in the Latin American community, we certainly do favour 1610 because even older radios, most older radios will encompass --

3527 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I ask you to be a bit closer to the microphone?

3528 MR. PLUNKETT: Sure. Most older radios will encompass that frequency. If not, the two higher ones at 1650 and 1690.

3529 We also have the further example, if we are using the same consulting engineer who was involved in the station, as you probably know, in Montreal, the French-speaking ethnic station came on the air in early August. Actually, when I drove down through Quebec to the Maritimes and back I was very interested to monitor their coverage and considering the fact they are using an antenna site on top of a building with not much of a ground system, their daytime coverage I would say was quite adequate for a 40 or 50 kilometre radius, and nighttime is pulled in to some extent from that, but certainly adequate to cover the areas that we want to cover from the Toronto situation.

3530 Obviously we seriously considered whether we should apply for AM or FM and it was my recommendation that it was likely going to be quite a logjam of applications for 101.3 and possibly other FM frequencies and at San Lorenzo, everything considered, it would be better to apply for AM.

3531 I have been actually surprised that the expanded AM band has been so slow to develop in Canada. There are about 45 to 50 U.S. stations on the air now. It has 10 times the size of the market obviously, but the international agreement allowing the expansion of AM bands has been in effect since 1984, so maybe it is high time that the largest city in the country gets one or more stations licensed up in there.

3532 Also, you are able to use a single-power non-directional because it is not part of the old band with many protection requirements. So it is much easier to deal with.

3533 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask you in terms of the issue of broad service, which you should be familiar with. When we would be looking at ethnic stations, because of the high demand for ethnic services, the large number of languages, the general rule is that we would go the route of broad service, which means service to a broad number of communities. Therefore you see currently the stations licensed to serve a number of communities.

3534 We have also said that we would entertain, if people were able to convince us that there was a need or it was appropriate in some way, to have a less number of communities, that we would consider that.

3535 Is this the best use of that frequency when we could -- not necessarily in this licence, because I'm not sure that the others -- well, maybe one of the others is planning more languages for this frequency, but if somebody was applying for more languages or we wanted to keep it for more number of languages, would that not be a better use of the frequency?


3536 MR. CARRANZA: We expected a question like that to come to us. I think one distinction that has to be drawn between our community and some of the other communities is that even the usage of the word "community" is problematic with respect to us because there are 21 different countries that are grouped under the Spanish language. Within every country you will have aspects that are very distinct in culture, language and in expression. So that is one aspect of it.

3537 The other aspect of it is that according to the statistics we are the fourth largest language group in the country, and certainly in the City of Toronto. In terms of the number of radio hours per person, we have the fewest radio hours per person of any of the ethnic communities presently served by ethnic radio.

3538 In that sense, I think that the CRTC would be fulfilling its mandate in that you would get a significantly large group of people that would have somewhere in the range of 60 per cent of the programming. In addition to that, we also have the Tagalo -- I'm not even going to address the Italian because we know that it is a community that is already served -- but the Brazilian, Portuguese as well.

3539 In that sense I think that we have full demand in doing something that we already know how to do, that we have experience doing.

3540 We have seen some other presentations in which you like a half an hour Spanish program stuck in the middle of the week. I think it is going to be almost impossible for a program like that to establish a radio audience. This is something that we have already experimented with in the other community radio stations in which we have participated. This is why we feel the need to have the day-long programming.

3541 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I appreciate that answer. I might have missed that in your application.

3542 But can I ask you, in Phase IV, to follow the number of languages, which we have agreed is four third languages and the two official languages, and give it the number of communities that you are going to be serving. I would ask you to file that because I would just like a list in writing as to what the names of those communities are.

3543 MR. CARRANZA: For Phase IV?

3544 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. By the end of the hearing, please file that.

3545 MR. CARRANZA: We would be pleased to do that.

3546 In addition to it, I would just point out -- I know that it wasn't so accessible in our documentation, especially the schedules, as they weren't numbered -- but we do have one sheet, Schedule 7, that provides you with --

3547 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With the names of the communities.

3548 MR. CARRANZA: -- a further breakdown of the different countries that are going to have specific programming.

3549 The wonderful thing, or the convenience of our situation is that we all speak the same language, but we have different regions of the continent with very distinct features, distinct accents. We have Caribbean Spanish, we have the North American Spanish, we have the Central American, all with very distinct histories and some common elements throughout the whole continent, and the language unites us all.

3550 The Argentineans and Chileans, Uruguayans, even ethnically speaking, are more European than the rest. So there are very specific characteristics that distinguish each and every one. There are 20 countries that are listed in this sheet.

3551 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the questions we have been asking everybody is for their thoughts about the new policy we put out last week on specialty audio services, which are audio services through cable and satellite.

3552 What are your thoughts about your project accessing that specialty audio service as opposed to a radio station?

3553 If we were not to grant this application, would that be a suitable alternative for you?

3554 MR. CARRANZA: We feel that our effort is essentially a grassroots community effort. We are here on behalf of a community that we know and now sociologists are telling us what we already know; that it is one of the most significantly to extremely disadvantaged communities, according to different factors of integration.

3555 I think for us the satellite and cable option is not really an option as it would deny access to a lot of the members of our community who would be restricted by income. So we consider that to be an obstacle.

3556 If that were not an obstacle, we wouldn't have a problem. If it was free and people could access it readily, then we wouldn't have a problem with it. But the fact that people actually have to pay, when you have to make a decision between paying your TTC metro pass or buying radio, you know that people are going to go with the other option and not radio.

3557 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Those are my specific questions. I have one general question, a closing question in a sense, to give you a chance to summarize your application as to why you think this would be the best use of this spectrum; why granting this application to you would be the best use of this position on the dial.

3558 MR. CARRANZA: By way of summary, I would say -- and on behalf of the group, if there is anybody else who wants to jump in, please do it.

3559 I will tell you two things.

3560 The number one thing is this is the largest growing ethnic group in Canada, and it happens to be also a very disadvantaged ethnic group in Canada. This community has a lot to offer. This community has been around since 1950, with the first wave of migration, up until the present. We have waves just about every ten years.

3561 There is a tremendous need in our community for radio of this nature. We know this from our previous experience. We have worked in community radio. We have done what we are proposing to do.

3562 We have worked in promoting local talent. We have worked in focusing our attention to local issues. These are things that we have already done. This is not part of a glossy, fancy business package that we come and present to you with our laptops. These are things that we have lived with and that we have the experience, and it is documented in our application.

3563 I think that our community -- and I am talking now not just about the Latin American community, but the greater community of Toronto would greatly benefit from having a Spanish radio station.

3564 We have the talent to create and export Latin American music, and instead of that we are allowing the United States Spanish-speaking community to do that to us. They are doing it already when it comes to television. Most of the programming that is seen right now in Spanish television is made in the United States, and the same thing is happening with radio.

3565 I think we have a great opportunity. We have the talent. We have the expertise. We have the need, the commitment and we have the motivation to do it.

3566 MR. SANCHEZ: I think it is also important to point out that we have a very young community. The growth of the community, which Juan has mentioned, signifies that it is a very young community, one that is very youthful and very energetic and I would say even somewhat impatient and looking for venues, looking for ways of creating positive expression.

3567 I think one of the missions that we have is to try to accomplish a place, not just a radio place but a space where a positive experience can happen. We have an extremely marginalized community, as well, a community of people many of whom do not speak English, many of whom came as refugees, for whom even the written Spanish is something that is difficult.

3568 One of the missions, as well, is to pull people in away from their loneliness -- loneliness which I think anybody around the table who has migrated from Latin America knows about, a loneliness that is a very hard and cold reality of coming to a country. Even as generous as Canada is, that loneliness is hard to avoid.

3569 So I think it is also about creating that environment and pulling people out of loneliness. That is why the participatory nature of the community side of the radio station I think is most essential. It is going to provide people with not just something to do but a way of getting in touch with other people who are in similar situations and sharing their stories.

3570 I think that is something that is very valuable and priceless.

3571 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much. Thanks for your answer.

3572 Are there any other questions, Mr. Carranza, that we didn't ask that you want to answer? Or have we covered all the issues that you wanted to inform us about?

3573 MR. CARRANZA: No. I think you have raised all the issues.

3574 The only other thing I would tell you is that this is a very committed group of people, a very humble group of people. We have a very humble and modest application.

3575 We would ask you to judge this application like you would judge a book. Don't judge it by its cover. Judge it by the content of what's in the written application and also the content of the people and the efforts that have been made by these people in coming to you here and knocking at your door to have space for the Latin American community in Toronto.

3576 Thank you.

3577 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.

3578 Those are my questions; thank you, Madam Chair.

3579 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Carranza, or Father Astudillo, you don't have your engineer here with you today.

3580 MR. CARRANZA: No, we don't.

3581 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are aware that there are two applications on 1610?

3582 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, we are.

3583 THE CHAIRPERSON: From different sites. Have you looked at the other one?

3584 MR. CARRANZA: I believe we have.

3585 MR. PLUNKETT: I certainly have as their consultant, yes.

3586 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know it is from different sites, but in your view is the coverage reasonably similar to you as to how many people -- when I look at the population proposed for the 15 microvolts, which would be, I guess, the interference-free coverage, the population numbers in the two applications are not terribly dissimilar.

3587 Your competitor's application shows a slightly larger coverage -- well, not slightly. It's almost 100,000 population.

3588 MR. PLUNKETT: For one thing, the Markham application is for a higher power.

3589 THE CHAIRPERSON: Higher power than you are proposing?

3590 MR. PLUNKETT: Than we are proposing now. Certainly future plans would be to upgrade from 1,000 watts, if licensed. The agreement allows for up to 10,000 day and night.

3591 THE CHAIRPERSON: So from that site it would be possible to have higher power?

3592 MR. PLUNKETT: Yes.

3593 THE CHAIRPERSON: From that site.

3594 I notice, as well, that you have, unlike many others, clearly identified two other frequencies which are not applied for and which both Imagineering and Industry Canada have indicated were possible to use: 1650 and 1690.

3595 Would those be usable by you from the same site?

3596 MR. PLUNKETT: From a technical standpoint, yes.

3597 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you explored that? Has the engineer mapped that out or discussed this with Industry Canada?

3598 MR. PLUNKETT: I know for a fact that the coverage would be --

3599 THE CHAIRPERSON: How do you know for a fact?

3600 MR. PLUNKETT: From having talked to our consulting engineer, which is Brian Sawyer of Advance Transmission Solutions. Once you get up to the top of the AM band --

3601 THE CHAIRPERSON: The extended band.

3602 MR. PLUNKETT: The extended band. The same power from the same site on any of those frequencies from 1610 to 1700, you are basically going to have the same coverage.

3603 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. As far as you know, you have technical certification for the power at the site on 1610 from Industry Canada.

3604 MR. PLUNKETT: We received their letters, yes.

3605 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have not explored the 1650 and 1690, but your view is that the use of those frequencies at that site would give you not a dissimilar coverage.

3606 MR. PLUNKETT: Our view would be that we would prefer to be licensed on 1610, but we would certainly be happy --

3607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because it would give better coverage.

3608 MR. PLUNKETT: Not just that. It would be the availability of the receivers. Availability of receivers that can receive the frequencies is the main distinction in our mind, and 1610 is preferable in that regard.

3609 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean one radio equipment would be likely to reach 1610 but not beyond?

3610 MR. PLUNKETT: If you go out and buy a radio today, it is going to go up to 1700, almost any radio you are going to buy, either in home or in auto. But if you are dealing with automobiles 12 or 14 years old, or older, you will find that the top of the band is 1610.

3611 THE CHAIRPERSON: So 1610 would be receivable on old equipment.

3612 MR. PLUNKETT: Right.

3613 THE CHAIRPERSON: But beyond that, the expanded band would be limited in older vehicles and possibly older radios, as well.

3614 Where are you with ascertaining the availability of the site?

3615 That may be in the application. I don't have the complete --

3616 MR. PLUNKETT: We did change site from our first proposed location.

3617 THE CHAIRPERSON: This has been filed with the Commission?

3618 MR. PLUNKETT: Yes.

3619 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it is contractually --

3620 MR. PLUNKETT: And we have an agreement in principle.

3621 THE CHAIRPERSON: Nevertheless, if you should get a licence, that site is ascertained for you?

3622 MR. PLUNKETT: And it is much easier to deal with the city of Toronto on the new site compared to the old site.


3623 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

3624 Commissioner Noël.

3625 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

3626 I have just a question of particular interest to me.

3627 Of the 25 per cent official languages, what would be the proportion of French versus English?

3628 MR. SANCHEZ: I beg your pardon?

3629 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Of the 25 per cent of the broadcasting that will be done in the two official languages, what would be the proportion that is done in French versus English?

3630 MR. SANCHEZ: It will be 5 per cent French, 20 per cent English.

3631 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

3632 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

3633 Me STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

3634 Good morning. I have just a few questions of clarification to complete the record.

3635 I understand that in response to Commissioner Cardozo you said that your programming would be 100 per cent ethnic programming, i.e. targeted to ethnic groups.

3636 Is that correct?

3637 MR. SANCHEZ: That's right.

3638 MR. STEWART: With respect to the third language requirement, you said that 75 per cent of your programming would be third language and 25 per cent would be English and French.

3639 You said that the 25 per cent you understood was -- maybe it was based on an understanding that the Commission's policy was to have some English and French. I think Commissioner Cardozo said to you that that was not the case.

3640 Over and above that, though, you said that the English and French was there to assist integration of your communities into Canadian life.

3641 Is that correct?

3642 MR. SANCHEZ: Yes.

3643 MR. CARRANZA: If I could add briefly to that, we are also knowledgeable of previous experiments in radio, having programs in the English language targeting the Latin American community.

3644 I mentioned earlier CKLN used to have a show called Alma Latina. The person who hosted that show moved on to mainstream radio but for a number of years had a successful program with Latin American music but the only spoken word was in English.

3645 More recently, a couple of years ago, there was a program on CIUT called Clara, which was also a musical show. I guess it was directed to the younger Latin American community. The music was Latin American, and the spoken word again was English. Both programs were highly successful.

3646 MR. STEWART: Have you given any thought to increasing the third language proportion of your programming and decreasing the English and French component?

3647 MR. SANCHEZ: Not much. We do feel, as mentioned before, there is a real educational value to having the English and French component, both for the very young and for the older members of our community, an ability to hear English not as it is heard on commercial radio or public broadcasting in Canada, but to hear English as it is heard in a way that members of our community speak English, which is actually different.

3648 So I think that there is a real educational value to that. We would keep that, I think.

3649 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

3650 For the record then, would you be wiling to accept a condition of licence that your programming would be 100 per cent ethnic programming and at least 75 per cent of your programming would be in a third language?

3651 MR. CARRANZA: We would have absolutely no difficulty with that.

3652 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

3653 Just to follow on from that, would you be willing to accept a condition of licence that a minimum of 60 per cent of all your programming would be in the Spanish language?

3654 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, we would.

3655 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

3656 You mentioned syndicated programming, and my understanding was that your application was based originally on 100 per cent local programming, and I believe in response to Commissioner Cardozo, you said that the local programming now would be more in the order of 90 per cent and it would be approximately 10 per cent syndicated programming. Is that correct?

3657 MR. CARRANZA: The aim of this radio station is to have 100 per cent local programming, that is the aim, to give ourselves some latitude should we run into the difficulties that board member Cardozo had raised. We are prepared also to have some syndicated programming from Latin America.

3658 The one thing that we would like to stress is also that the participatory nature of community radio enables us to respond I guess more efficiently to the needs of our listeners. So in that respect we would have to keep attention to that and to determine what it is in terms of that percentage.

3659 If there is a large interest in having some of that syndicated programming, we would definitely include it. But right now the aim of this radio station, the objective is to try to have 100 per cent programming. We know that this is a very difficult undertaking, and for that reason we allow for this 10 per cent of syndicated programming.

3660 MR. STEWART: Right. So there has been a slight revision then to your application, given that your application as filed was based on 100 per cent local programming?

3661 MR. CARRANZA: Yes, that is correct. It's still the aim of this applicant to have 100 per cent local-made programming. That is our aim, but we are trying to be realistic as well, coming to you up front and telling you: If we are unable to do this, this is also our backup plan.

3662 MR. SANCHEZ: It's a bit of a safety net plan, I must admit, and I think that I tried to make the point of distinguishing the kind of syndicated programming that it would be. It would be explicitly syndicated programming that would be very much in harmony with the character and the nature of the application that you have in front of you.

3663 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

3664 Can you just confirm that you will not be involved in brokered programming, ie. paid programming, groups that would pay for airtime?

3665 MR. CARRANZA: Yes. We would like to confirm that.

3666 MR. STEWART: Thank you. Thank you very much.

3667 Ce sont toutes mes questions, madame la présidente. Merci.

3668 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3669 Thank you, Father Astudillo and Mr. Carranza and your colleagues. You were first this morning, but on time and ready to face our questions. We hope you have a good day and we will see you again at Phase II if not during the rest of the day or part of it.

3670 Thank you.

3671 MR. CARRANZA: Thank you.

3672 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a 15-minute break and we will be back at 10:35 to hear the next application.

--- Upon recessing at 1020 / Suspension à 1020

--- Upon resuming at 1044 / Reprise à 1044

3673 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

3674 Mr. Secretary, please.

3675 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair. Item 8 on the agenda is an application by magic 1610 Markham Radio for a licence to operate an English-language AM commercial radio station in Markham.

3676 The new station would operate on frequency 1610 kHz with a daytime transmitter power of 10,000 watts and a nighttime transmitter power of 5,000 watts.

3677 Appearing for the applicant, Mr. Frank Rogers.

3678 Mr. Rogers, you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


3679 MR. ROGERS: Good morning, Madam Chairman and fellow Commissioners. My name is Frank Rogers and this application is going to be a little different than what you have been hearing. We are just going to talk. There is no big presentation here.

3680 This application is four years old. It's actually six years old, but we are just going to go back four years.

3681 This application, due to all the stoppage and starts again, a lot of these letters probably that I don't see -- I'm supposed to have the same thing you have, but I don't see a lot of the letters that were written to all the way up to the office of the Prime Minister when we were trying to say why are we sort of put on the Toronto hearing?

3682 What I would like to talk to you this morning about is why we are here, where is York Region and why York Region is above Toronto, but we are still at the Toronto hearing.

3683 Now, I find myself in a very uncomfortable position, one that the applicant before me was for 1610. I don't have a problem with their application, except the frequency that they chose. There is also another person that is on low power at the CRTC and I really don't have a problem with him, except again the frequency.

3684 When we decided for York Region, it was for many, many years. I was part owner of another radio station in Newmarket actually which is part of York Region.

3685 York Region in the 30 years since its creation, the population has grown dramatically. In 1971 the Region's population was 169,000 people. Today, the population has now surpassed 800,000, which is approximately 12,000 to 15,000 behind the City of Ottawa.

3686 I would also like to read you a little letter a little later on.

3687 The York Region makes up nine municipalities: The Town of Georgina in the far north; the Town of East Gwillimbury; the Town of Newmarket; the Town of Aurora; the Town of Stouffville; the Town of Richmond Hill; the Town of Markham; the City of Vaughan; and the Township of King.

3688 Now, the strong population growth is approximately 40,000 per year. It's going up and up. The demographics of York Region is the age of 34 to 53. These are the baby-boomers which make up 34.7 per cent of the Region's population.

3689 By comparison, only 32.6 per cent of the GTA population, and 31.9 per cent of the Canadian population are in this age bracket.

3690 I would also like to point out at this time that approximately 60,000 to 80,000 teens reside in York Region, and there is a reason why I am saying that at this time because when I go into programming that's a very important figure.

3691 Now, the demographics or the migration in York Region, I will tell you right off the bat, we originally started off four years ago as a complete English-speaking radio station. Never did we disregard the make-up of the population or everything else, but when we did -- and when I get into why we are covering the ethnic groups the way we are -- when we did our own surveys we discovered that a lot of the people said, "Yes, we are from so and so country, but we would still like to be speaking in English" and everything else.

3692 Now, the other part I find very uncomfortable, I have to agree with a lot of my interventions. I have four interventions, and they are almost all the ones that intervene about every other radio station.

3693 We felt very, very strongly -- and I might add still do -- that a lot of the ethnic groups are well represented by the other radio stations in Toronto.

3694 Going out into the street -- and I do street surveys. We do not hire big, large companies to do our surveys. We go out, talk man-to-man, woman-to-woman, et cetera, et cetera. And they were telling us, they felt it difficult to find how those stations would ever exist if they had full 24-hour ethnic stations.

3695 So what we decided to do to meet the CRTC's latest demands -- just before the hearings actually -- where they weren't going to look at any Toronto stations unless there was some ethnic flavour.

3696 So what we decided to do was go back into the community and see how we were going to do this so that it made sense, that made sense to what we were doing with all our other programming.

3697 Before I go into that, I would like to go into what about our programming, because I think that the book itself tells you -- and one of my interventions say, which was kind of cute -- "Gee, this guy's application was made up with a lot of directories and things like this". It was the focus why we did that to explain to everybody crystal clear that we were above Toronto. We were York Region, and we did not want to be clumped to Toronto.

3698 Unlike the other applicant, I have a two-tower array, not a one-tower array. I have two towers because one tower is an actual reflecting tower which I can go into later, if you have any questions about that, to prevent us from technically -- we are going into Toronto, but very, very little. I'm not interested in Toronto. I'm interested in York Region.

3699 It's amazing how many stations there are in Ottawa. There are 32 signals, I believe, going into Toronto and I would imagine there is probably at least ten or fifteen going into Ottawa. Ottawa only has a population of 12,000 more than York Region and there is one small FM station in all of York Region, and it's not even really located in York Region anymore.

3700 So the whole point of this was we were trying to -- and I am going to go into programming now for a couple of minutes, if I may. We wanted to start the day with some good news and upbeat, but not being loud or obnoxious. A few little titbits, good music that flows, mostly Adult Contemporary, frequent and traffic and weather reports. News on the hour and the half hour and small business reports, and little comments to round out the morning show.

3701 The mid-day shift seems to be the longest, but there will be several breaks within the show. The announcer will be catering to the office crowd and yet still remembering the stay-at-home parents. Of course, there is still news on the hour.

3702 The drive-home show will be similar to the morning AM show, with the exception of a little more music, possibly back-to-back.

3703 The business report show will be one of our flagship shows. Due the nature of the businesses in the community, it will a high-tech, very local show.

3704 Now, we changed our evening part to take into some of the ethnic groups that we are going to talk about in a minute. But we have several stand-out shows, and it's very important that I should cover them.

3705 You know, you have candlelight and wine shows. You have heart in the city shows. You have for lovers only shows, but what about the divorced or single parent? I would like to remind the Commissioners that there is 1,764,485 as of 1996 single parents in this country, and over 200,000 are in the Toronto-GTA.

3706 We have devised a show where we have professionals already arranged and lined up to help them. We are going to play music, and I don't mean "My wife has left me and the dog died", and things like that. We are going to have just music where it's comfortable music and we are going to talk with parents without partners, doctors, how can the schools help out referring to wife abuse centres, dad's help groups. We want to focus this show, a two-hour show, on giving the single parent a voice within the community, and trust me, you can go on any dial in Toronto and you are not going to find it.

3707 As I said at the beginning, you are going to find music for lovers only. You are going to find candlelight and wine, all good programs, I might add, but missing a whole big group.

3708 High school profiles show I am very proud of, and the teen dance party.

3709 As I said, going back, with the number of teams in York Region they have not their own program. What we would like to do is facilitate that and put some of their own programs to link all the high schools within those nine communities so the kids know what is going on. They know on Friday and Saturday night that the radio station is theirs with involvement from the kids themselves. The students themselves coming in with adult supervision, they would produce and be associate producers of that show.

3710 Our weekend line up besides the Saturday night teen shows and everything else, we plan on getting into the community. Now, I don't know if the Commissioners are aware of this, but we waited so long -- and I should add, the radio station is completely built. It is sitting there, 254 Main Street. We built the complete radio station mainly because we thought we would be here two years ago.

3711 We have our own tower site. Under the rules and regulations we could obviously not put the towers up until you get a licence, but the tower site is there.

3712 So we have done a lot of work in the last two years just to keep us going and in the meantime I was fortunate enough to apply for a Category 2 digital licence and the process went much faster and got accepted and we went on the air August 26th on Channel 187 in the Toronto area.

3713 So I have a fair amount of experience and, as I said, I think I have gotten to know most of the people at the CRTC on a first name basis and they are all great people. They do their jobs very, very well and it is very hectic for them.

3714 Of course, it was part of the education process, I must admit, when I had to tell them -- because York Region, when people say "York Region" -- if I said to you "Toronto", obviously, or "Richmond Hill" -- when you say "York Region" they say "Where is that" and everything else. That was the whole point of it.

3715 Going very quickly into the ethnic side of things, I was really complex, because you see by February 5, 2001, when I guess the policy came out, we had to quickly run around because the stations like CJMR, Fairchild Communications, CKMW -- I am leaving out somebody, I know I am. CHIN Radio, how could I leave that one out -- I have the highest respect for those guys, even though some of them are intervening against me, but they, I believe, provide a fair amount of the ethnic groups good coverage.

3716 So when you take a look at -- I don't know what page it is in your book, but when I went through York Region to get the ethnic population, which was really hard to get, I noticed I had a problem right off the bat. Because a lot of the ethnic breakdown in York Region are well covered -- well covered, I have to say, by Fairchild Communications, by CJMR -- so am I going to be duplicating that.

3717 So I had to come up with another plan. The plan I came up with was that, okay, they are going to come in, why don't we do this: Why don't we take the groups -- and there is a whole list of them here provided by York Region in Markham -- why don't we take those groups, go to their committees, go to their associations and say "How would you like a one-hour program regarding what you guys are doing in York Region, all the events -- they have fund-raisers, they have community events and stuff like this -- and what you are doing there?

3718 Lo and behold, that went over very, very big and we were able to, as you see, get to the place where it tells me that this will work. It is a one-hour to two-hour show of those ethnic groups, but it will work because it is more localized to cover York Region.

3719 To finish off in my application, I ought to go back to a letter which I do not know if you have it in your file, because it goes back to 1999. But out of all the 412 pages that make up part of our application, I think this letter says it best. Of course it is from Markham itself, the Director of Economic Development.


3720 Don't worry about the first line. He says:

"I'm writing to request that the CRTC review its decision regarding the application to locate a new radio station in the Town of Markham. It is our position that the Town of Markham and the Region of York in which the town is situated are sufficiently large and independent of Toronto to constitute a separate radio market, one which is in need of its own radio station. Markham is one of Canada's fastest growing and most prosperous communities. Markham's population has grown from 153,811 in 1991 to 195,000 in 1999 and is forecast to reach 260,000 by 2011.

I must remind you, this is the City of Markham alone out of about nine communities.

As Canada's high tech capital, Markham is home to IBM, SUN, Microsystems, Apple, Compaq, GIAC, ATI and Lucent, all technologies, all sizes, employing over 88,000 people overall in every activity from light industry to retail business.

Whereas once Markham was a bedroom suburb of Toronto, today as many people travel to work in Markham from Toronto as travel from Markham to Toronto.

The trend is in favour of Markham growing. Markham has established itself as a successful residential and business community with its own distinctive identity and community focus.

Markham has top national and international firms like Pioneer Electronics, Liberty Health, American Express. Fortune 500 companies are all well represented, including General Electric, Quaker Oats and Ace Hardware.

In addition to these companies, Markham hosts numerous other world class corporations, Lego, Pillsbury Canada, Timex, General Electric.

Markham is wired to the world for business communication needs. Companies in our own town can take advantage of multiple fibre optic access lines that are integrated into a national fibre optic network. This network has the capability of efficiencies and effectively to move information across the country and around the world. Markham's telecommunication infrastructure matches or exceeds what is available in major U.S. cities and international locations.

Underlining what Markham lacks is its own radio station, a station which can service the information and community needs of this dynamic business and resident community. I encourage the CRTC to review the application for a radio station in Markham and to rule in its favour." (As read)

3721 In a nutshell, it is very simple: York Region has been passed over or sort of clumped in with Toronto. I live in Newmarket and I will assure you the only time that Toronto radio stations ever get north of Steeles, 90 per cent of the time, is if there is a mass murder, something to do with organized crime or something really, really alert and then they will send somebody up north of Steeles. Other than that, if you are the community group, whether you are the Red Cross or you are just trying to raise money, phone a Toronto radio station and see if they will come up and cover it. They won't.

3722 With that, I know it was just talking to you, but there is so much that is in here. I even get confused, and I am sure the Commissioners, when they look at all this, go "Wow, some of this is even redundant." I had to keep updating it.

3723 It took so long to get to where we are right now, I had to keep updating the information. Even as of today, I was just saying, the brand new Census figures and a little pamphlet which I brought 15 copies are here, "The Changing Face of York Region", and again the numbers changed. Probably again by the time decisions are made the numbers will change again.

3724 That, ladies and gentlemen, is just a little bit of chit-chat about Magic 1610.

3725 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

3726 You obviously can do it without a piece of paper so you must be less confused than us because look at how much paper we have.

3727 MR. ROGERS: I have just been doing it for so many years, that's all.

3728 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so have we, some of us.

3729 Commissioner Grauer, please.

3730 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you, Madam Chair.

3731 Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

3732 As you probably know, what we are doing here today is trying to fill in a lot of the gaps and seek clarification in some areas. Certainly you know your application far better than we do, so hopefully you will bear with us as we go through some of these issues.

3733 MR. ROGERS: If I might say, I know my own application. The ones you guys got, I got lost.

3734 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So you will bear with us.

3735 MR. ROGERS: Yes, I will.


3737 I would like to start in the area of programming. I know you have filled in some of it here this morning. I have taken some notes, but perhaps if we recover some territory you won't mind.

3738 As you know, our definition of an ethnic station is one that programs a weekly level of at least 60 per cent ethnic programming. As you also know, you are very familiar with the background of how we ended up making a call for an ethnic station. As you said earlier, the only issue you took with the previous applicant was one of frequency. That is really what we are here to do is deal with the allocation of frequency.

3739 So given that our requirement of at least 60 per cent ethnic programming, you would fall under the category of a non-ethnic radio service based on your plan to offer a range of at least 15 per cent and up to 28 per cent ethnic programming.

3740 Focusing on the ethnic programming, then, that you are offering, can you outline the nature of the programming? Are you proposing to offer spoken word, music? Of your ethnic programming, what is it going to look like -- sound like rather?

3741 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Basically, as I said, up to, I think in January, when the CRTC tagged that on about they were not going to look at Toronto applicants unless they included ethnic programming, that was a tag on at the very end. For years previous to that, that wasn't the case.

3742 As I said, we went out to the crowds, to the groups, and we looked at them and we looked at what the other radio stations were offering and we said we can't duplicate. Just for the sake of trying to get up to a magical number, we can't duplicate programming when we don't want to lie to the Commission, we don't want to say "Oh yes, we can do this, we can do this, we can do this", and then find out we can't. That segment of the population, either because of funding or trying to get sponsors, would not support it.

3743 So we did the next best. Again, the second and third largest population in York Region are the members of the Chinese community and East Indian community, and both are before you for an application.

3744 To be quite honest with you in answering your question, if one of them gets the application, plus the number of hours which we have spelled out here that are already on radio -- as a matter of fact, like I said, one of my interventions are Fairchild Communications. We felt they were really well taken care of, especially whenever you licence that new FM station.

3745 So as I said, what we did, we went out into the community -- so a lot of these programs will be spoken word. So, for example, if you take the Ukrainian or -- again, I don't want to say Spanish because I think they have done a good job on what they have said, but any one of our other locations, like Philippines or anything along that line, the Greek community.

3746 We would give them the opportunity because the numbers, depending on the numbers that are in York region, and there is a list here of them, depending on their numbers -- we took Arab as one of our things, and the same thing like African speaking, and in York Region there is 2,120. Now, would that stipulate a 24-hour a day programming? No. Would that be good enough for an hour to two hours a day or a week? Yes.

3747 So what we have done is, we have got into the groups. We have met with them and met with the associations to say "How would you like to get air time to talk about what your local chapter and your local association of the ethnic groups in York Region are doing?" Because if they are having something at the Markham Fair or they are having something in Newmarket, would people from all the way down in south Toronto, The Beaches, go all the way up to Newmarket, but the people in York Region, since we were broadcasting as a York Region radio station, yes, they would attend.

3748 So it gives them an hour to two hours to give them what they are doing. They can bring in locally -- we are really functioning here on local talent. Local talent can come into the studio, they could play local music that would never be able to be heard on larger radio stations and they would be able to interview some of their own special guests. And, of course, if they had a barbecue or a fund-raiser or something like this, we would be out there on location helping them promote it.

3749 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I am trying to think of the best way -- the ethnic programming that you are proposing in your station would be spoken word programming specifically directed to the ethnic communities in your region.

3750 MR. ROGERS: Yes, in York Region.


3752 MR. ROGERS: That would also, for example -- again I go back to the teens that we are really, really familiar with. If there are a lot of teens of ethnic origin who will not have a chance to walk into a larger radio station, whether it is CHFI or any of the big stations, and say "Here I am. Would you play my CD?", they might have a chance on our station to come in and say "Hey, we are kids" -- when I say "kids", they could be 19-20 years old -- "but we have just recorded a song, it is in our native tongue, could you play it on that special programming?" We would say "Yes".

3753 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I wonder if it isn't useful at this point, you talked earlier about your news and I wonder if you could tell me what your newscasts again will sound like. What is the news that they will cover and what --

3754 MR. ROGERS: The English or the ethnic?

3755 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Both. Perhaps you could talk to me about both.

3756 MR. ROGERS: The English news would be on the top of the hour. A lot of radio stations are getting into just straight music. Years ago -- and I'm sure a lot of the Commissioners have been around the CRTC, I notice Mr. Colville there. Many years ago it was a regulated thing the number of hours you had in news. I don't know what happened to that regulation, but I am a news junkie and I'm starved for news. Gone are the days where it used to be news on the top of the hour, the 55 minute deadline. Gone are those days. I want to bring those days back again. News should be on the top of the hour.

3757 It is a three-minute newscast. It gives you what is happening in your community. Like I said, it is not all about the criminal element, but also it could be the latest stories, the latest development and then it broke down to also what is happening within that community and then a little bit of weather and a little bit of traffic in a three-minute newscast on the hour.

3758 For the ethnic side of things, in my application I said that I would allow them access to broadcast news and any satellite news service that I have that they can bring down news from their home country and include that in their newscast.

3759 But every single ethnic program still must provide news, as far as I am concerned, and whether it is from their country or what is happening in York Region with regards to their groups.

3760 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So your newscasts won't be limited to what is happening in York Region, your coverage area, limited?

3761 MR. ROGERS: No, it won't be limited to York Region, but in the business, from a broadcaster's point of view, you always start off locally first. Your local news is your first news, then national, then international.

3762 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I think maybe what I will do is I am going to come back to this.

3763 What about your drive show?


3764 MR. ROGERS: We have worked long and hard on our drive show. There are two thoughts.

3765 In the south part of the region a lot of people are in a very high stressful amount of jobs, high tech, very stressful corporate people. We chose to go with a little bit more music of the softer variety and a little bit less talk, except for the newscasts and traffic report, in our drive show, because we want to sort of mellow some of the people out before they get home basically.

3766 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: How many of them work and live within the region? Do you know?

3767 MR. ROGERS: Included in the letter I just read, in amongst those half of the application -- I can probably tell you even the most current ratio, but those are figures that are in those booklets.

3768 As the Markham Economic Developer Officer said, there are more people going to Markham than there are going to Toronto now. So the numbers are here.

3769 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What would be the average drive period? Of the people who live within Markham and are driving to work, what would be the drive period?

3770 MR. ROGERS: First thing, it is called Magic Markham Radio because the station is located in Markham, but if you have to look at it, you have to look at it as the York Region Radio Station.

3771 The drive period in Markham, especially on Highway 7, or in some of those areas, could be as short as five minutes and could be as long as 25 minutes. But if you are coming down from Richmond Hill going to Markham, or vice versa, if you are coming down from Newmarket, it takes me approximately 35 minutes during the day to get to the studios. I live in Newmarket. To get to the studio in Markham it takes me 35 minutes during the day. During rush hour it could take me 45 minutes to an hour. So we do have their ears for that length of time.

3772 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What I'm really struggling with here is, I realize you applied for a Markham station. We issued a call for an ethnic station. I know in your view this was a tag on for us. In fact, for us it was we have been through a series of licensing procedures, as you know, in the Toronto area over the last few years and the frequencies don't recognize the kinds of boundaries that -- in an ideal world I know you would like to serve Markham only, but when we look at this frequency we have to look at where it could be used overall.

3773 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Firstly, I would like to say one thing: I don't want to serve Markham only. I want to serve all of York Region. That is nine communities consisting of 800,000 people. I cannot believe the CRTC can say "Okay, if you looked at some of the material, that is 800,000 people." And yes, if you take a look at my map, we would still go into Toronto. Our map still goes into Toronto, so there is another couple of hundred thousand people, if not 300,000 to 400,000 people that we will go into Toronto.

3774 If need be I can take down tower No. 2 and then we will be a complete Toronto radio station, but I would like to get all the way up to Keswick.

3775 Against what the other gentlemen were saying about the distance where the extended band will be, again there is a letter there from Mr. McCauley, one of the very well-respected engineers who worked for the CRTC, and the 1600 and above band is not really a Toronto frequency.

3776 So when the Commission decided to say that 1610, 1650, 1690 were Toronto frequencies, Industry Canada, who approved that -- it is very difficult, and I have had conversations with Mr. Elder, another respected engineer too, saying that that is going to be a Toronto frequency proper. It is going to be very difficult to get where you are going.

3777 I understand this is a Toronto hearing. We have been trying to get on hearings for the last four to five years, and it is the CRTC that keeps putting us in the Toronto hearing.

3778 If you read all the letters that we have been fighting for, all the letters all the way from the highest level of the Commission, they kept saying we do not recognize York Region. You must be part of the Toronto call.

3779 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: To say that we don't recognize the York Region -- I'm not sure that we said we don't recognize the York Region. I think what we said is that we look at the GTA and we look at the extent of the frequencies, and that is the framework in which we look at licensing decisions.

3780 Perhaps we could move along and let us flesh out some of the information here on your Canadian Talent Development. Then I do have some questions on the technical issues later.

3781 First let's talk about the Canadian Talent Development.

3782 You have committed an annual expenditure of $6,000 in the first three years in one part of your application; that is $3,000 towards establishing a catalogue of Canadian ethnic recordings, and $3,000 is part of the CAB CTD plan; and $3,000 for each of the subsequent years related to continuation of the CAB CTD plan.

3783 Elsewhere, in Section 9 your Canadian Talent Development expenditures are projected at $10,000 in year one, increasing to $25,000 in year seven.

3784 I am wondering if we can clarify what your yearly CTD expenditure you would adhere to by condition of licence would be.

3785 MR. ROGERS: We want it to be higher than what the CRTC recommends or what they ask for, what the CAB asks for. And here is the reason why.

3786 I am very clear on the CRTC regulations on what they stipulate; that there should be no self-promotion or anything else.

3787 What we wanted to do, especially for the youth and now several of the ethnic groups, is get them into a recording studio to record their own CDs. I am very aware of the cost of that. If you are talking $3,000, you might be able to give one person or one group of people that right. And it might even be higher.

3788 To us, it is getting the talent that we need. Some of our associate producers who have worked very hard, and that will be volunteers and even someone in the ethnic group, they cannot afford to get into a proper recording studio and then to get the brochures made up, the fliers made up, the mailings to the different radio stations. That costs a lot of money.

3789 That is why as we went along in our application, it became clear that we were going to have to spend more money on this to do a proper job.

3790 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Does that mean you would agree to -- I realize that this is difficult for a lot of applicants.

3791 MR. ROGERS: Under the condition of the licence, you tell me the minimum because I am already going to exceed that.

3792 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: There is no minimum.

3793 MR. ROGERS: That is what I am trying to say. We want to exceed. We want to spend as much money as we can afford.

3794 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What would you agree to as a condition of licence?

3795 MR. ROGERS: $10,000 plus.

3796 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So a minimum of $10,000.

3797 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3798 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Good. Can you tell me beyond the stated $6,000 how you would propose to spend the subsequent $3,000.

3799 MR. ROGERS: Because again we are still a music station too, it would be tied into (a) some of the ethnic groups who do not have the money to put on some of these fundraisers. Or when they are trying to put on different social group things, and things like this, we would dedicate that too.

3800 But most of it is getting talent, raw talent and trying to give them a break; trying to get them either into a recording studio to do a CD sampler, as it's called, or to get them to where -- you know, the cost of going out and doing something that they want to do within the community.

3801 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: With respect to qualified third party expenditure, how would you do this?

3802 MR. ROGERS: In other words, we wouldn't do the recording ourselves. We are a radio station; we are not a recording studio. If you are going to spend the money, you might as well get these kids and part of the other groups in the right direction.

3803 We would literally say: Okay, you are going to go into this recording studio. We pick up the tab. It's as simple as that. We pick up the tab.

3804 If a group comes to us and wants to have a fundraiser or they are a little short, or they can't do it, we pick up the tab. It's very simple.

3805 And that, by the way, is over and above self-promotion. That is not included.


3807 I gather from your opening remarks you did not conduct a demand study or commission a third party study to demonstrate demand. You determined it through talking to people on the street.

3808 MR. ROGERS: In the end we started to do that, because after four years -- as I say, this application is technically four years old. We started to go right into the streets.

3809 Just like York Region, it changes every day. The survey that we did four years ago is already outdated by a long shot.

3810 Since we were on location and we applied through Industry Canada to get special permits to go on the air -- you know, your 28-day permit. I guess everyone is familiar with those.

3811 We went right out into the community and talked to the community, and we did some broadcasting of small events within the community.

3812 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So that is the basis on which you assessed demand for the service.

3813 MR. ROGERS: Plus the different politicians that we approached and asked them to check with their constituents to see if it was needed.

3814 Again, there was a letter from almost every politician that you can imagine that was involved there, except the ones who were cabinet ministers. We had cabinet ministers who said I can't get involved in the CRTC, which is understandable.

3815 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Perhaps we could talk about your English language spoken word programming and how that programming will work.

3816 I know you have spoken about sponsorships. Are you looking at brokered programming? Will it all be station run programming? Maybe you could talk to me a bit about that.

3817 MR. ROGERS: Because of our TV licence -- I am a really big component of using youth. We have broadcast schools. We have colleges. We have Ryerson. We have Humber Sheridan. I can go down the whole list. Thousands of kids come out of broadcast schools with no place to go.

3818 Even when we are low power on this special permit we use in-term students, right on-the-job training. Young people, male or female, coming out of these broadcast schools are good. They are excited. They are not sometimes like -- you know, they are excited to be there. They want to learn.

3819 Some of our programming will be done -- a lot of it, I should say -- by those kids themselves. They will be supervised.

3820 Even while we were having the in-term students we filled out reports to the Board of Education, to their schools, on how they were doing. You know what? They were great.

3821 I have a TV network right now that is being run predominantly by students. So it does work.

3822 You are giving the kids practical experience, yet they are mature enough to handle adult situations.

3823 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What would your day-time program look like, and who would your listeners be?

3824 MR. ROGERS: The day-time programming, as I said, the morning show is predominantly -- we already have several announcers that are lined up from other radio stations.

3825 The morning show is predominantly for the adults, getting them to work, getting them the news and information that they need while they are on their way in to work to keep them informed.

3826 Again in the York Region, a lot of it is separated by the business community, and those facts and statistics are here.

3827 They would want to know the difference in the stock markets and the trends from overnight, and things like this. That information, mixed in with a little bit of music, will be given to them on the morning show.

3828 Your mid-day show, as I was saying, is dealing a lot with the home parents. Now that we will be switching, probably some of our ethnic shows might also be during the day part.

3829 I have already discussed the afternoon drive.

3830 The evening shows would be again a mix between the ethnic shows and what we call York Region Tonight, which is a two-hour show three times a week getting out there into the community again, whether it is a play or a school band or the community concert band. That would be live-to-air or live-to-tape and then broadcast the very next day.

3831 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I know that York Region is very much the centre of the high tech sector, and that features prominently throughout your application discussion.

3832 There has certainly been a major downturn in the high tech sector. Has that affected your business projections in any way or assessment of the viability of this service?

3833 MR. ROGERS: I have to be honest with you. Yes, it did. It hurt us. Again, the way this application is, a lot of these corporations that I referred are getting involved for "community reasons", not because it is a radio station but indirectly for community reasons.

3834 The smaller stores -- and again, this is very important. I realize this is a Toronto call, and I realize we are going to be in the parts of Toronto. But if a store in Newmarket, Richmond Hill or Georgina, or any of those areas, a Pizza Place or any of those stores want to advertise, they can't go to a major Toronto station and pay those rates because, as anyone knows, you are within five miles of your area for servicing.

3835 So someone up in Georgina or Newmarket or Aurora is going to have a hard time going into one of the major Toronto stations and paying their rates to know who is going to drive from The Beaches up to Aurora or Newmarket in the north part, even to Markham, to get a store where they might pass hundreds of them on the way.

3836 Does that answer your question?


3838 Your financial projections reflect an average annual growth throughout the licence term of 11.5 per cent for national advertising, 10.3 for local and 17.3 for corporate sponsored programs.

3839 Do you feel these are achievable, given the current economic conditions?

3840 You have not revised these numbers since 2000?

3841 MR. ROGERS: What we have done -- and I only learned about this even too late for this hearing.

3842 What we have done is we have lowered our expenses going to, as I said, a lot of the kids that are out of broadcast school as opposed to the top flight announcers. So our expenses have dropped considerably, taking into consideration we know we are going to get a little lower revenue.

3843 We don't know what is going to happen between now and when the Commission makes its decision. There could be another downturn in the economy.

3844 So we are just adjusting as we go along.

3845 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Do you have any revised financial projections, then?

3846 MR. ROGERS: I could provide you with the current one, which was again too late to enter into this hearing.

3847 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Perhaps counsel can follow up with you on the extent to which we might want new financial statements.

3848 What percentage of your revenue do you expect will come from businesses operated by members of the York Region's ethnic community?

3849 MR. ROGERS: On the overall to our business plan, or on their programming alone?

3850 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Well, perhaps you could tell me both and how you plan to do that.

3851 MR. ROGERS: What we technically plan, and this is why I would -- I have been in this business a long time, and saw some of the others, especially the ones that intervening, and they will tell you, as we go along, that there will be some very strong applicants, and there will be some very weak applicants.

3852 We have already looked at the situation and felt that if we based our revenue, it's going to be very low on the ethnic group side of things because what we plan on doing, we plan on -- and I am being very honest with you -- subsidizing part of their programming to help them out. That's what we plan on doing.

3853 I would say no more than 10 to 15 per cent of our revenue will be based from our ethnic programming. Again, they have to provide the announcers, et cetera, et cetera. We will provide the facilities.

3854 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So it will be a form of brokered programming then.

3855 MR. ROGERS: A lot of it will be, but again to help them out, we are not going to have control over their programs. I mean, when I say "control", they are doing their own programming. So they are going to provide their own social producers, their own announcers, et cetera, et cetera.

3856 So there is a fine line between brokers and non-brokers. We are still, even the way we built our facility is almost like a teaching facility. We have from the oldest equipment to the most modern equipment. So we are sort of like a teaching facility too.

3857 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So would it be perhaps more like community access programming then?

3858 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3859 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: And would that be all of it or...?

3860 MR. ROGERS: All of the ethnic programming? I hope so. I don't believe in this one group just sending out tapes, syndicated programs. I kind of like to keep it as local as I possibly can.

3861 By the way, there is a need for it because, of course, each area in our nine communities, there are different associations making up the ethnic groups.

3862 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Do you see national advertisers using your service to reach the ethnic population and the general population in York Region?

3863 MR. ROGERS: Yes, I do.

3864 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: To what extent would those revenues form -- what percentage of your revenues would be with those national advertisers?

3865 MR. ROGERS: What we have aimed for is again 25 to 30 per cent and how we are doing it is I believe in a lot of remote and on-location broadcasting. So, therefore, as I mention some of those corporate names, in a roundabout way they might not be buying what we call spots on the radio, but they might be sponsoring the events that we are broadcasting which in turn is the same thing.

3866 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So would those then be national advertisers who have a presence already in York Region? Is that you are talking about?

3867 MR. ROGERS: Yes. When I read that letter, you heard me go through a whole bunch of corporations, 6,000 in Markham alone, and some of them are very high Fortune 500 companies. I'm not as naive to say if we went through the advertising agencies, and they go "York Region Radio or Toronto new radio stations? Forget it. You have unknown numbers". But if you go through them and say, "The Russian group would like to put on a production within the community and we need your support to help put on that live production of say a Russian concert", in effect they are doing for -- that's what I said. They are doing it for community reasons, not necessarily radio station reasons, even though they are getting the benefit of radio.

3868 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: How much of your listening, your tuning, would be from commuters, people in cars?

3869 MR. ROGERS: I know where this is leading to. As all the other applicants said, the car is now very, very important to us. Whether you are coming to work or going to work, the kids are going to schools and things like this. I would say because Markham and York Region, especially the north, the farther north you go in North Region, the car is very, very important.

3870 Off the top of my head I would probably say 60 per cent. I honestly would say we would have more listeners definitely mobile than we would in the home because if you know the communities like I do, when they get home they are into their high-tech stuff, they are working on the computers, they are on the Net. So maybe the radio is in the background, or things like this.

3871 Now, again I have to elaborate. For our teen shows, as we are promoting them throughout the schools and getting everybody excited about that, they will be at home calling in, requesting songs, and within the schools themselves. So that would be, yes, home-based with the younger generation.

3872 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Now, back to the sponsorship again. In terms of your corporate sponsorship, you have indicated:

"We are just relying on some of the high-tech corporations to meet the projections of $300 an hour in paid program revenue".

3873 I gather you perhaps revised that, as we just talked about a little earlier, but it was going to account for 38 per cent of your year one total revenue.

3874 What do you expect that it would do now? What would your per-hour rate be and what percentage of revenue --

3875 MR. ROGERS: Actually what happened -- funny you should mention that one -- was that our teen programs got so popular with some of the larger corporations in York Region, that the ones we lost for regular programming made up for it on the teen side. So we haven't really lost anything. So I can honestly say that that is a very close figure right now because of the corporations that jumped on the teen bandwagon. They want that teen market. They know our programming and I'm very proud to say no other station in Toronto, even the teen channels are doing what we are doing.

3876 We are putting back -- and that's why they are jumping on the bandwagon -- we are going right back to the teen dances, if everybody can remember the teen dances.


--- Laughter / Rires

3878 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What impact on your program expenditures do you foresee occurring as a result of the introduction of third-language programming?

3879 MR. ROGERS: Could you just repeat the first part of that question?

3880 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What impact on your overall program expenditures do you foresee occurring as a result of the introduction of your ethnic programming, if any?

3881 MR. ROGERS: Well, I don't really because what I would like to do with the ethnic programming is very simple. I would like them to reap the benefits as much as they can. Again, just like the applicant before me, they are a small group of people getting together, taking on a humongous job, and why would I want to sort of say, "Okay, look. Whatever you can raise within your community". I would rather let them try to make some money and feel good about it. So I don't have to end up part of having the problems on my own side too.

3882 So in answer to your question, I hope it doesn't have a negative factor to it, but again, as so many small groups have even told us -- and again when you go down that list of smaller the groups, they said, "We don't have any money for this". So we would then have to say we want to fulfil our commitments with ethnic programming so we will have to pick up the costs. So that will be some sort of negative on our balance sheet, but --

3883 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I didn't ask the question very well. What impact do you expect it will have on your program expenditures for your non-ethnic programming?

3884 MR. ROGERS: Again, I have to refer to the dynamics of advertising and the dynamics of marketing. If you go into an ethnic group and say to a car dealership, "Look, we have this ethnic program on" -- I mean, we would have to do that at the station because we are trained to do that -- "Could you help them out? Tell you what we are going to do. We are going to give you commercials within that group, but we will also give you air commercials around the clock, a run of schedules", something like that. We would be willing to do that too.

3885 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I take it, and I think you covered this earlier, you don't know of any other existing radio stations that serve the York Region advertisers, potential advertisers.

3886 MR. ROGERS: There is only one radio station in York Region and actually that's classified as a Toronto radio station. They hardly ever mention York Region. That's in Newmarket and it's a small FM radio station. That's it. They are owned by another applicant that is already here before you. So they all work out of the one studio, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really not significant. We are not taking a lot away from them, and we are not taking a lot away from Toronto. Yes, like I said, I will go into


3887 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So you don't expect to capture any revenue from any other existing radio stations.

3888 MR. ROGERS: If you are talking about taking away revenue, no. Our idea of selling and our idea of marketing are two different things. We just don't sell spots. You know, they are selling spots. Obviously it says in here about the spot rates, and stuff like this, obviously. But what we are trying to focus in, you are buying a package, you are buying on location, you are buying a special event, a special show, the single parent show.

3889 I mean, do you know how many -- I'm sure you do, but do you know how many advertisers would like to get involved with single parents? You could even get some of the professional sides involved with the single parent show.

3890 Now, there would be no point in just getting ordinary advertisers, and that's what I'm saying. I'm not just putting in -- I guess I shouldn't be saying this -- a Coca-Cola, a Pepsi-Cola, or a Seven-Up commercial in a single parent show for the sake of selling spots. What I would like to do, which we have done, is approach the advertisers that might, as a single parent, have a need for their services which makes more sense.

3891 So you are not taking the Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, Seven-Up ads away from the big boys because you are taking a specific -- I know it's a narrow focus -- advertiser that says, "Yes, I want to sponsor the single parent show. I want to sponsor one of your other shows along those lines. I want to get involved". There is where your big corporations come in.

3892 The Markham Theatre is putting on the community band concerts. We, as corporate citizens of York Region, would like to help sponsor that. That's why the big boys just sell the spots.

3893 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So you have more sponsorships than spots.

3894 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3895 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: How much of your revenue do you expect will come from businesses that don't currently advertise on the radio at all?

3896 MR. ROGERS: Again, I guess the question is due to the way we are selling and due to the way we are lining them up, some of these businesses could not afford the Toronto radio stations' rates.

3897 I am sure the Commissioners are aware of what these rates are for some of the larger Toronto stations. So you have again a store or business in the north part, or even the south part of York Region, and you go and somebody says, "Hey, we want $200 or $300 a spot", they can't afford that.

3898 So we have to go to the little guy at times to give them the advantage, and again they are only interested within five to ten miles of their store anyways.

3899 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. We are almost done. I have your letter here, the engineering letter from Mr. MacAulay.

3900 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3901 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I see it was written two years ago in October. I'm wondering if you are aware if he has done any updates subsequent to the Industry Canada report.

3902 MR. ROGERS: We applied for eight monthly permits to go on low power. I have worked diligently with the great guys at Industry Canada. So I am quite aware of where we are technically on these frequencies and I have, again, from the last applicant to my maps here -- again 1650, 1690, yes, they are both conceivable. I don't buy the argument about cars that are 12 or 14 years old, and if you take the number of cars -- and I don't have that number on the top of my head -- but I wouldn't imagine there are a lot of cars running around that are 14 years old, but if they are newer than 14 years old you can get any one of those frequencies.

3903 The reason why we chose 1610 was twofold. Actually in one of the letters, I was one of the first -- first, I might add -- applicants to look at the extended band from the Toronto industry who I had lunch with, and they said, "Hey, you know, there is going to be a whole new extended band and it's the 1600".

3904 I said "Oh, I'm going to go for it." I don't even know how many years ago that was.

3905 So I jumped on this 1610. I really do think that is a good frequency.

3906 I think the whole extended band is a frequency. As a matter of fact, since you only have three applicants -- if we can add some humour here -- and there are three channels, well, you know -- need I say more?


3907 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Which brings us to the final question.

3908 As you know, your application is competitive and mutually exclusive with another applicant and what we would like to know is: What, in your view, are the reasons that we should award this licence to you? You can have five minutes to tell us how your proposal constitutes the best use of this frequency?

3909 MR. ROGERS: Okay. I think any one you award a licence to -- and again, I understand fully how the Commission stands with the Toronto policy and the ethnic policy. Again, I have to refer to I'm not ignoring Toronto, I am not ignoring the ethnic policy, but I am looking at the 800,000 people who live above Toronto in York Region.

3910 If you look at my maps, we do go into Toronto down as far as approximately the 401, just right here, and we go as high as Keswick.

3911 I think if we are going to award licences, we have to award -- Madam, when you said about how many people want us, well, a lot of people want us.

3912 I guess we could have tried to fill the chairs, as some groups are doing, and that is fine, but if you go through all the pages and all the letters and all the different things, it makes sense that a community as large as York Region, being a bedroom community of Toronto -- and let's face it, we talked about it and I will try to get that number for you for the next part of this hearing here -- the number of people who still come north to York Region are still Toronto residents. So they would still have to know what is going on in Toronto. They would still have to be aware of the programming and things going on in Toronto.

3913 So, like I said, don't for a minute think we are ignoring Toronto, because we are not. We just want to focus on York Region in itself. Toronto would be the after match.

3914 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I laugh because it is pretty difficult to ignore Toronto, in this case.

3915 MR. ROGERS: Well, so far the 800,000 people of York Region has been ignored.

3916 What we are trying to say here is: Look, we are going to do the best job we possible can. We have a good, young staff; we have volunteers; we have kids; we have experienced people. Our average experience is over 20 years in the business. The part of the paid people is going to be over 20 years in the business.

3917 So we come from a wide background. We are very conscious of the ethnic programming. We applied to get -- and this is where my interventions are hoping to be listening -- we tried to work out a deal where we are not stepping on their toes, but we are still providing what the CRTC wishes, to provide as much ethnic programming as we can, without duplicating, without redundancy again in that, and to provide them the help they need too.

3918 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

3919 Those are my questions.

3920 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Colville.

3921 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I guess it is still morning. Good morning, Mr. Rogers.

3922 MR. ROGERS: Mr. Rogers.

3923 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You acknowledged that I have been around the Commission for some time, and I have.

3924 MR. ROGERS: Sorry about that.

3925 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I am an engineer by profession, but I am not an electrical or, more particularly, a spectrum engineer, so you are probably more knowledgable about a lot of these spectrum issues than I ever will be.

3926 But I am struck by the fact that having been around the Commission for 12 years now, and I suppose for at least 10 years I have been hearing from commercial radio broadcasters: The AM band is toast as far as commercial radio is concerned. Nobody is listening to AM any more. We want to flip to FM because that is where everybody, and in particular kids are listening. It is the best band for music. It is also the band that in cars everybody listens to.

3927 I can understand why some of the groups that are appearing before us this week would apply for some of the AM bands, because their particular audience will probably seek them out regardless of where they are.

3928 I know in my own experience when I drive in the car, whether it is in Ottawa or Halifax, I will punch up different stations on the FM band, depending on my mood, but I rarely go to AM.

3929 So I'm curious, given your knowledge and expertise and background in this, why you would sort of target AM.

3930 After saying that, I am recognizing the problem with FM availability in Toronto, but you have indicated this morning you have already spent the money and built the studio and you are all ready to go in a band that apparently not many commercial broadcasters want to even use any more.

3931 MR. ROGERS: I could answer that. Two things.

3932 One, I received a CRTC report on populations, economic and licensing data for this very hearing -- I'm sure everybody has that report -- and it shows that AM in the last year went up 3 per cent, up to, I believe, 27 per cent. I am still looking for the page that was on. Where in the last year it went up -- yes, it had a horrible downturn, but now it seems to be stabilizing or going up. This is from your report.

3933 The second thing, when there is talk about music, CHUM Radio has just changed from sport back to their Oldies format. That is all music. So we feel that if we are going --

3934 I guess the third reason was, you have a logjam fighting over one, possibly two, FM frequencies.

3935 We have committed to AM right from the beginning and I am still committed to AM. If you ask, yes, there are some channels that are lowering, but there are other channels that are just doing quite well on the AM band and it is about getting the people to listen to it, not -- it's education. That's what it is.

3936 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: In answer to a question from Commissioner Grauer, I don't know if the question was particularly targeted to this, but what I heard you say was: You have three applicants here and you could easily satisfy three applicants.

3937 MR. ROGERS: I was being humorous. I'm sorry about that.

3938 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You are being humorous, but we have a difficult task facing us with all of the applications here this week, whether it is 101.3 or whether it is 1610, we have to wrestle with some difficult choices here. This has become increasingly a problem for the Commission, not just here in Toronto but in other areas of the country where we are starting to run out of spectrum, whether it is AM or FM band, and we are getting a lot of applicants who are wanting to serve different particular needs so it becomes more difficult for us to try to satisfy all the demands.

3939 We have struggled with: Well, maybe we can't give this one to this party, but we could give that one." So we want to explore these kinds of issues at the hearing before we have to go back and sit down and wrestle with: Okay, how can we best accommodate most of the demands that we have in front of us.

3940 So with that in mind, I note that when asked in a deficiency question if you weren't able to get 1610, your second choice was 1480. You said, perhaps somewhat in jest, that we could satisfy all three demands using, presumably 1610, 1650 and 1690. I assume the three you are talking about is Geetha Vanni, San Lorenzo and yourself.

3941 MR. ROGERS: Yes, that's right.

3942 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here to me. I am not being critical when I raise this. You said 1480 was your second choice. More specifically, would 1650 or 1690 satisfy you as a second choice?

3943 MR. ROGERS: Yes, it would. Let me clarify. Sometimes I get a little too humorous at times.

3944 But 1480, because Industry Canada has already approved 1480, 1480 was one of my old frequencies. 1480 is almost identical. If I was to show you the map of 1480, it would be almost identical to this 1610. 480 was out of Newmarket, Ontario and what happened was, the bubble, as we call it, or the light bulb, is almost the exact same thing.

3945 Considering at the time when the question was raised -- because I never thought that I would have to deal with that question -- I thought: Well, Industry Canada has already approved 1480. 1470 is no more. 1430 is our closest one. Technically speaking it goes by the number how far they are away from each other. Therefore, I chose 1480.

3946 Would my second choice really, truthfully be 1480? If Mr. McCauley or any other engineer could tell me I could do it on the one or two towers, I had six towers on 1480. Our land could hold the six towers, but it would be real tight.

3947 Therefore, obviously, in answer to your question, yes, I would take 1650 or 1690 far better than I would 1480. But I did it after talking to all the guys at the CRTC and Industry Canada saying: Well, it is already there and it has technically been approved, et cetera, et cetera.

3948 But 1650 and 1690 would be my other choice.

3949 In further part to your question also, I feel it is now time to use that extended band. As I said, I wasn't kidding, it was like five years ago or six years ago when you guys started -- Industry Canada started thinking about: Let's extend the band. Well, let's get some of those stations on that extended band and that might solve some of the problems anyway.

3950 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So as between 1650 and 1690, would there be a preference?

3951 MR. ROGERS: 1650.

3952 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Would 1650 give you largely the same coverage that you would get with 1610?

3953 MR. ROGERS: Yes. On the extended, again, 1600 band you are within a couple of kilometres either way. The only dispute I have with the other applicant was the size of their area compared to my area.

3954 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Consequently, there would be no material difference in the financial impact on your application, either in the cost to implement it or in the potential revenue given any coverage differences?

3955 MR. ROGERS: We already have our own transmitter now and it is all ready for 1610, but to get another chip it is a few hundred dollars to move the chip to 1650, to 1690. Probably under $1,000 I would say, because the chip that -- so our transmitter --

3956 The other transmitter might -- our backup transmitter that we were using when we ever did our low power, that might be a little harder to get up to -- I don't think that might even -- it is an older transmitter so I don't think that would get up to 1650 or 1690. But our other transmitter, our 10,000 watt transmitter, yes, it is just a chip. That's all it is.

3957 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So there would be no consequential impact on your financial projection?

3958 MR. ROGERS: None.

3959 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

3960 Thank you, Madam Chair.

3961 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.


3962 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Rogers, we have already licensed on 1610 in Montreal you know.

3963 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3964 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we are quite aware of the use of the extended band.

3965 I heard you say there is another station in North York, another radio station, but that is a Toronto station. You realize, as far as I know, you will be a Toronto station as well if you were licensed?

3966 MR. ROGERS: Yes, I realize that.

3967 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that you would be competing on AM with the FM stations that come into Toronto. So am I right that your ability to compete would be based on the fact that you would serve North York in particular, that you would serve that northern area in particular, the north region? The York north region.

3968 How would you compete with the FM Toronto stations, that beam into that area?

3969 MR. ROGERS: They don't. If you take a look at their map, the applicant before me doesn't even go -- it just barely gets to Richmond Hill and it hardly gets to Markham.

3970 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I know. What I mean is, you are going to go in part into Toronto. The Toronto stations at the moment reach that region that you are aiming for.

3971 MR. ROGERS: The ethnic stations?

3972 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean the FM stations that people now listen to in that region. In the region that you are aiming for, you will be competing, at least with your non-ethnic programming, with the other services that reach the region where you will be broadcasting.

3973 MR. ROGERS: Are you talking about the advertising dollar? Because it doesn't --

3974 THE CHAIRPERSON: The appeal to the audience.

3975 MR. ROGERS: Because we are local.

3976 THE CHAIRPERSON: Exactly.

3977 MR. ROGERS: We are giving local community events, we are on location most of the time in York Region and a lot of our information will be about York Region.

3978 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your programming plans will be targeted to the mainstream audiences that already receive these --

3979 MR. ROGERS: Wait a minute; the best of both worlds, though. If you are coming from Toronto to work in York Region, then it is nice to know what you are going to.

3980 THE CHAIRPERSON: I realize that.

3981 MR. ROGERS: And if you live in York Region, you have the best of both worlds.

3982 THE CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to ascertain that what is underlying your proposal and your ability to compete is that you will be local to that region.

3983 MR. ROGERS: We have to be honest here. The number of times the Toronto radio stations come north of Steeles is very rare. So we have that advantage where we can say: We are your local radio station and yes, we serve Toronto too. We will, on the other hand, go south when we have to.

3984 THE CHAIRPERSON: I gather that you have been testing this theory by broadcasting already.

3985 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3986 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much have you been on the air in the last --

3987 MR. ROGERS: Eight months.

3988 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of the eight months have you been on air?

3989 MR. ROGERS: Well, on and off, because under the 28-day special permit you are only allowed to do special events.

3990 THE CHAIRPERSON: I heard you say you applied for these 28 days eight times?

3991 MR. ROGERS: Yes.

3992 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have been on the air eight months possibly?

3993 MR. ROGERS: Yes, on and off, though.

3994 The problem with the low power is that it is very low. Again, I question some of these maps, because in reality low power is two kilometres, sometimes three kilometres. It all depends on the atmospheric conditions, I guess. We were very disappointed. That is why we did not continue serving some of our community and doing some on-location work, because it was just not viable with a low-power permit.

3995 It works the equipment really good, and it also did some testing on the equipment, and everything else.

3996 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would it be fair to say that your aim with this proposal is to serve that region in general and that the ethnic proportion of it is somewhat secondary? Would that be fair?

3997 You have a problem with the context of this hearing as developed. But would it be fair to say that that is your aim?

3998 MR. ROGERS: If you look at the different ethnic groups that have come to York Region and the composition from 1986 to 1996, only 10 per cent was English and 70 to 90 per cent was from all other countries.

3999 Why would I want to ignore that? I don't want to ignore that.

4000 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you could achieve both those --

4001 MR. ROGERS: It is the best of both worlds again. The only difference is that the ethnic groups would be focusing in on York Region.

4002 Even the Spanish group that was here before me was talking about their community in their area. There are statistics right here of the number of ethnic groups.

4003 You are looking at 32,995 Germans that are part of the ethnic group in York Region. It would be great to talk about Kitchener and the Oktoberfest, but why not talk to the 32,995 Germans that live in York Region?

4004 That is what I am saying. The good part of the ethnic policy -- and I wasn't trying to criticize you guys. The good part is that there are numbers enough in York Region to say: Hey, this will work.

4005 But it won't work 24 hours a day. And I can't go back on that statement. It won't work 24 hours a day.

4006 It will work giving them one and two hours a day. It will work better. Then if they want to have a fundraising, going back to my community policy where I want to get involved with the community -- take the German group again. I know if you were to come next week to Newmarket, there is an Oktoberfest in Newmarket.

4007 Are the Toronto stations going to come up to the Oktoberfest in Newmarket, or are they going to go to the famous one in Kitchener?

4008 That is the point I am trying to make, about how we want to do the ethnic programming for the local York Region area.

4009 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

4010 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.

4011 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.

4012 Me STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

4013 I have a few questions of clarification.

4014 First of all, would you accept a condition of licence that at least 15 per cent of your programming, but not more than 28 per cent, would be ethnic programming?

4015 MR. ROGERS: Yes, sir.

4016 MR. STEWART: In the event that you were to adhere strictly to the minimum, do you feel confident that you would be able to continue to serve the existing groups in the eight languages that you have proposed?

4017 MR. ROGERS: Yes, sir.

4018 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4019 Would you accept a condition of licence that at least 15 per cent of your programming, but not more than 28 per cent, would be third language programming?

4020 MR. ROGERS: Yes, sir.

4021 MR. STEWART: And again you feel confident that if you were to adhere simply to the minimum that you would be able to serve the existing groups in the eight languages that you have identified in your application?

4022 MR. ROGERS: Yes, sir.

4023 MR. STEWART: Mr. Rogers, why didn't you revise your financial projections to take into account the particular nature of the call?

4024 MR. ROGERS: According to the CRTC rules, it was less than two years old. And the delays for the Toronto hearing. But I adhered to the CRTC rules that those financial projections can only be a certain amount.

4025 It is just like your technical brief can only be a certain age before it is outdated.

4026 MR. STEWART: Are you saying to the Commission that CRTC policy prevented you from revising your financial projections?

4027 MR. ROGERS: No, no, I am not saying that. These have been revised. As I say, this application is technically four to six years old, and it has been updated and updated and updated.

4028 Once it got gazetted, obviously we were doing our updating and making the changes as we went along. But they said after it gets gazetted, nothing can be added, unless the Commission sends out a deficiency -- which, by the way, they never sent out a deficiency asking me to update my financials.

4029 MR. STEWART: I will ask the question for the last time: Given the nature of the call, why did you not update your financial projections?

4030 Obviously the Commission is going to have to ask itself how reliable are the financial projections that are on the file right now.

4031 MR. ROGERS: Well, I think in answer to that question, I followed every rule and regulation that the CRTC asked of me. All the deficiencies were answered on time and right away, and that was never one of the deficiencies that came up.

4032 So yes, we knew that a lot of our financials were not -- they are still not off. I could do another financial -- which we have already done -- and they are very, very close to where they are right now.

4033 As I was explaining to the Commissioners, when we saw there was a problem or a downturn in some of the high tech companies, we changed our way of sponsorship and programming. So it sort of made up for it.

4034 MR. STEWART: You had an exchange with Commissioner Grauer over brokered programming. Could you clarify once again whether or not you will be accepting brokered programming.

4035 MR. ROGERS: I had the exchange. The brokered programming, at least under the understanding that I have of what constitutes brokered programming, I want to run this station in such a way that yes, if need be and if we cannot get groups to work with us and they just want to broker their own programs, sell their own advertising and give us a finished tape, yes, we would do that.

4036 I was hoping that we would work with all the ethnic groups involved to do a little bit different than brokered programming. What we are hoping for is to work with them within the community to help them out in such a way that we are just not getting a finished tape and say here's your program.

4037 MR. STEWART: Any brokered revenues that you might gain presumably are not reflected in these financial projections, given that you did not amend them.

4038 MR. ROGERS: Because we were not expecting any, and I still don't think we are going to get any.

4039 I answered the question truthfully when I said we might get some. But I would rather not work that way. I would rather work with them to help them and produce the programs.

4040 If they would like to make money -- I remember saying that. If they would like to make money off the program, then that should be their money.

4041 MR. STEWART: For the benefit of the Commission, I would like you to file by Monday mid-day a detailed breakdown, year over year, of your Canadian Talent Development proposed expenditures, beginning for year one up to year seven.

4042 Are you willing to do that?

4043 MR. ROGERS: For the Canadian Talent Development?

4044 MR. STEWART: Yes.

4045 MR. ROGERS: Yes, I am.

4046 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4047 Mr. Rogers, why are there no representatives from the various ethnic communities with you today?

4048 MR. ROGERS: I thought I was going to be representing the whole thing. I don't think that was an oversight on my part. I could have brought them along, but I think that I can answer the questions that were put forward to me.

4049 MR. STEWART: How well do you know the ethnic communities that you propose to serve?

4050 MR. ROGERS: What we did was we went to Chamber of Commerce meetings. We went to their own association meetings. I had to find the ones in York Region. I tracked them down. I did talk generally to the presidents of the associations. I met with some of them and told them what we wanted to do. They were very open about this.

4051 We discussed how to do it. They were really intrigued that we would be helping them all along the way.

4052 Again, a lot of them unfortunately were not involved in radio before. So yes, there is going to have to be a lot of supervision.

4053 Unlike the previous applicant who has several ethnic groups that are very familiar with the way radio works, and our associate producers and things like this, we found it a lot tougher to find that in our community.

4054 MR. STEWART: Did they volunteer to come and assist you with your appearance before the Commission today?

4055 MR. ROGERS: No, they didn't actually. They didn't really say one way or the other. I didn't ask and they didn't -- we were concentrating more on the programming than we were on anything else.

4056 MR. STEWART: Just one final question.

4057 I see, with respect to the Filipino population, you mentioned the language as being Filipino.

4058 Can you identify for the Commission the precise language that is spoken in the Philippines?

4059 MR. ROGERS: Since I didn't handle that one, no, I cannot.

4060 MR. STEWART: With respect to Africa, you mentioned the --

4061 MR. ROGERS: Afrikaner.

4062 MR. STEWART: -- African language. Can you be more specific?

4063 MR. ROGERS: I can say that what we talked about was the Afrikaner language. I can't give you a breakdown, if that is what you are asking for.

4064 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4065 Ce sont toutes mes questions. Merci, madame la présidente.

4066 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

4067 Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers, for your presentation and your co-operation in answering our questions.

4068 MR. ROGERS: You are very welcome.

4069 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will never again say North York and East York. It is the York Region.

4070 I do have your map in front of me. The language, we know, has been accurate, but my understanding of where you would be beaming and covering is clear.

4071 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.

4072 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Have a good trip back to York Region.

4073 We will break now for lunch and will be back at 1:30.

4074 Nous reprendrons à 1 h 30.

4075 We will only hear one more application today. We will start tomorrow morning at 8:30 with Radio 1540.

4076 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1215 / Suspension à 1215

--- Upon resuming at 1335 / Reprise à 1335

4077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

4078 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

4079 Item 9 on the agenda is an application by A. Fitzroy Gordon on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated to be known as Caribbean and African Radio Network Inc. for a licence to operate a commercial FM ethnic radio station in Toronto.

4080 The new FM station would operate on frequency 105.1 MHz, channel 286A, with an effective radiated power of 78 watts.

4081 In addition, the applicant proposes to operate an AM transmitter in Toronto to rebroadcast the program of the new FM station. The AM transmitter would operate on frequency 790 KHz with a daytime transmitter power of 1,000 watts and a nighttime transmitter power of 250 watts.

4082 Mr. Fitzroy Gordon will introduce the members of his panel and you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.


4083 MR. GORDON: Thank you very much.

4084 Bonjour madame, membres de la Commission. Je m'appelle Fitzroy Gordon.

4085 Please pardon my French. I hope I did not give the translator any headaches this afternoon.

4086 My name is Fitzroy Gordon. I would like to say a very wonderful welcome to you, madame, and all the members of the Commission, to Toronto.

4087 I am the President of the Caribbean African Radio Network. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of our panel who represent a diverse blend of talent, commitment and dedication to this application.

4088 First, Mr. Delford Blythe, Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer of CARN, sitting to my right.

4089 To my left, a young lady who represents youthfulness, Kathy Maloney, our Public Relations Officers at CARN.

4090 Mr. George Marcells, an African businessman, President and founder of CANAFRIC. He is our African Programming Coordinator, and he is sitting behind me to my left.

4091 Joan Pierre, a businesswoman, Caribbean Cultural Liaison Officer for CARN, and she is sitting to my extreme right.

4092 Mr. David Graham, a businessman, Religious Programming Advisor of CARN. Mr. Graham is in the back.

4093 Mr. Courtney Betty, lawyer, counsel for CARN is also in the back to my right.

4094 Mr. Abbillahi Ali, African broadcaster, and one of our Program Coordinators. He is to the back here to my left.

4095 We have also in our midst a representative of Destiny Capital Inc., and one of our investors. They are here today to show support.

4096 I would like to bring to the Commission's attention the passing of one of this country's veteran radio broadcast journalists, Mr. Dwight Whiley. I don't know if he is any relation to you, madame.

4097 Mr. Whiley came to --

4098 THE CHAIRPERSON: All of your are our brothers.

--- Laughter / Rires

4099 MR. GORDON: I thought so.

4100 Mr. Whiley came to Canada from the Caribbean in the 1970s and he became one of the CBC's premier announcers. He made all of us from the African and Caribbean community proud.

4101 I would like to dedicate this application to the memory of this stalwart broadcaster who served with distinction while paving the way for many young and aspiring Caribbean and African broadcast journalists.

4102 As part of our commitment to the development of Canadian talent, from the African and Caribbean community, we will create the Dwight Whiley Journalism Scholarship to be awarded to a Canadian of Caribbean and African heritage.

4103 The Caribbean and African community welcomes the opportunity to present to the Commission our proposal for an ethnic radio station to serve over half a million Canadians of Caribbean and African heritage.

4104 CARN will be a station with a clear vision and a proactive mission for the Caribbean and African community and all Canadians.

4105 Our vision is a Greater Toronto that is alive with the sounds of Caribbean and African cultures, where diversity is celebrated, and all persons enjoy equality and self-respect regardless of their origin, gender, age, religion, ability, language or socioeconomic status.

4106 Our mission is to enhance the lives of Canadians of Caribbean and African heritage. We will be their voice, serving and reflecting them 24 hours a day through programming of culturally and linguistically appropriate music, spoken word, local and international news, sports, entertainment and religious programs.

4107 MR. BLYTHE: The CRTC in its Public Notice 2001-10 stated the following, and I quote:

"The GTA has a diverse multicultural, multiracial and multilingual population, one that is rapidly increasing in size and proportion. There is a strong demand for new radio services to serve the ethnic population in the GTA. In recognition of the needs of the ethnic population in the GTA, if and when suitable AM and/or FM frequencies can be identified, the Commission intends to give priority to the licensing of programming services that clearly reflect the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA".

4108 CARN commends the Commission for recognizing this long held view of the Caribbean and African community that the existing commercial and ethnic radio stations in Toronto do not reflect our linguistic or cultural diversity and unique identity.

4109 MR. BETTY: Madam Chair. The 1996 Census data identifies the Caribbean and African population as the third largest visible minority group in Toronto representing over 24 per cent of the ethnic population.

4110 We comprise a very significant part of the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA. However, there is currently no radio station dedicated to serving the African and Caribbean communities.

4111 I would respectfully submit that the Commission look at this licensing as not just a social issue or one that heavily impacted on the economic development of the Caribbean and the African community.

4112 The CRTC's own broadcasting policy monitoring report 2001 clearly demonstrates the need for this situation to change. According to this report the Caribbean and African community only receives 5 per cent of all ethnic programming. Our own analysis indicates that these hours are usually at very inconvenient and impractical broadcast times, such as 2:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. on weekends or very late at night.

4113 No programming is offered to our community during prime time or during the daytime on any ethnic station.

4114 This, in my submission, is a severe limitation on the community's ability to economically develop itself.

4115 MR. GORDON: CARN is committed to programming that provides 100 per cent ethnic programming 24 hours per day. A minimum of 75 per cent of all programming will be locally produced. We will broadcast a minimum of 26 hours of third language programming to over 22 groups from Continental Africa and the Caribbean residing in Toronto.

4116 To meet the needs of our community, spoken word, which entails talk shows only, will comprise a minimum of 16 per cent of all programming.

4117 To encourage the development of Canadian talent, we will more than double the minimum Canadian content requirement for ethnic stations of 7 per cent by broadcasting a minimum of 15 per cent Canadian content.

4118 MR. MARCELLS: We have long expressed a strong demand for radio that serves and reflects our unique needs and interests. All of us from Continental Africa and the Caribbean with hundreds of languages, dialects, customs, beliefs, traditions and heritage have made Canada our home.

4119 We have developed and maintained a strong connection to our traditions and roots.

4120 CARN will provide 24 hours programming that celebrates this unique relationship between our communities through local, regional, national and international news with direct and particular relevance to our community.

4121 Spoken word programming that examines the specific issues affecting our community, issues such as immigration and integration, media stereotype, youth and the need for positive role models, mentoring of our youth, health, community relations, self-reliance, financial planning, legal matters, women's issues and local community forums.

4122 MR. GRAHAM: Religious programming reflecting the cross-cultural, linguistic and different faiths within our community.

4123 MS PIERRE: Programming that provides live coverage of our many and divers cultural events here in the GTA, such as CARIBANA, carnivals and festivals throughout the Caribbean and Africa.

4124 MR. ALI: Live coverage of international sporting events that have a strong demand and feature local and international athletes from our community such as cricket, track and field, and all Caribbean and African nations world cup soccer matches.

4125 MR. GRAHAM: Programming that will attract significant new business advertisement and investment opportunities targeting our community.

4126 MR. GORDON: Madam Chair, with your permission, allow us to give you a sample of what CARN FM will sound like.

--- Audio Clip / Clip audio

4127 MR. GORDON: Thank you, Madam Chair.

4128 MR. MARCELLS: Chimurenga. Chimurenga is a Shona word with a modern interpretation describing a struggle for human rights, political dignity and social justice. Music is the language of the world. CARN is committed to programming that celebrates the diverse yet unique musical styles with their origins in the vibrant African and Caribbean communities.

4129 MR. ALI: Examples of musical styles to be celebrated include: reggae; rock steady; ska, from Jamaica; calypso and soca from Trinidad and other Caribbean islands; highlife, Ghana; Shona-Zimbabwe, juju-Nigeria; pan jazz-Trinidad; afro beat-Nigeria; bend skin-Cameroon and Chutney from Guyana.

4130 MR. MARCELLS: We will enhance the cultural, historic and geographical affinity between the African and Caribbean Diaspora and their native land. CARN will also enrich the Toronto airwaves by providing an opportunity for all Canadians to listen, enjoy and become enthused by the rhythm of our culture. From Angola to Zimbabwe, Antigua to Windward Islands, the ethno-cultural diversity of our community will be embraced and fostered as this multicultural society becomes more educated and appreciative of the mosaic masterpiece we call Toronto.

4131 MS MALONEY: CARN will contribute approximately $293,000 over seven years to the development and exposure of local and national Canadian musical and journalism talent. Particular emphasis will be placed on the underrepresented visible minorities within the Caribbean and African communities, both male and female.

4132 We are proposing to undertake the following initiatives over seven years to further support and strengthen the development of Canadian creative talent:

4133 Afro Rhythm Festival - $50,000

4134 Pan Afro Jazz Summer Concert Series - $49,000

4135 Canadian Talent Search - $73,000

4136 CARN CD Compilation - $51,000

4137 Canadian Artist Club Concert - $40,000

4138 Contribution to FACTOR and Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters - $30,000.


4139 MR. GRAHAM: Our Canadian Talent Development commitment will help raise the profile of all Canadian musical artists who are active in the African and Caribbean musical field. We recognize that along with our contribution to FACTOR and the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters, these initiatives will provide highly effective opportunities for the identification and promotion of new Canadian musical talent.

4140 MR. GORDON: Here we offer a few examples of talented Canadians who are grossly under exposed in the Toronto market. For example:

4141 Reggae artist, Donna Makeda, will be appearing as an intervenor on behalf of CARN;

4142 Harrold "Hurricane" Hussein, Toronto's CITY-TV weatherman, a fine calypsonian whose self-titled CD "Hurricane Hussein" did not even receive any airplay on his own employer's radio station. Can you imagine that?

4143 Mr. Kenen, a young and brilliant Canadian of Somalian descent whose recent hip hop CD "What Next" is receiving little or no exposure at all;

4144 The same can be said of gospel recording artist George Banton, Marvia Providence.

4145 CARN FM will make a difference.

4146 MR. BLYTHE: We respectfully request of the Commission, an exemption from the requirement of subsection 7(2) of the Radio Regulations 1986 which requires an ethnic station to devote a minimum of 50 per cent of its programming to third language programming. The majority of people of Caribbean and African heritage living in the GTA either speak English as their first language or confidently as a second language.

4147 A wider definition of the term "English" was applied in our application to include the many dialects which use English and French as its base to generate a unique cultural-specific dialect. Examples include Patois, as spoken predominantly by Jamaicans and other Caribbean natives; Creole and Chutney, which is a fusion of Hindi and English spoken by Caribbeans of South Asian origins.

4148 Madam Chair, to further demonstrate this point, here is a 30-second sample of Caribbean "English" music.

--- Audio clip / Clip audio

4149 MR. GORDON: Madam Chair, indeed that is English. Maybe it is the first time in the history of the CRTC that we need an English interpreter to interpret English.

4150 The Ethnic Broadcasting Policy, Public Notice CRTC 1999-117, provides for programs in any language, including English and French, so long as they serve culturally or racially distinct groups other than ones that are aboriginal Canadian or from France or the British Isles.

4151 With this in mind, and in light of the Commission's objectives in Public Notice CRTC 2001-10, CARN's programming services:

"...clearly reflect the diversity as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA". (As read)

4152 Our programming, Madam Chair, is directed to a culturally and racially distinct group as provided for under Public Notice CRTC 1999-117.

4153 We believe that our programming service would contribute to the harmonious integration of the targeted ethno-cultural communities into the larger Canadian society, which would be enriched as a result.

4154 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, CARN firmly believes that it is our programming rather than the language that makes CARN an ethnic station.

4155 We note from Decision CRTC 2001-678 that a similar exemption was granted to a new French-language ethnic AM radio station in Montreal which went to air in early August. In order to best serve the "English"-speaking ethnic population in Toronto we need the exemption as was granted to the French-speaking ethnic population in Montreal.

4156 MR. GRAHAM: We have prepared a solid financial plan with reasonable forecast and sound financial backing. Our community financial commitment is evidenced by the presence of two of our community investors, Mr. Raymond South, President of Southport Data Systems Inc., and Mr. David Singh, President of Destiny Capital Inc. CARN will increase ownership diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system while creating new employment equity opportunities for our community.

4157 MR. GORDON: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I fondly recall arriving as a young boy many years ago to this wonderful, vibrant city called Toronto. I was immediately fascinated with the dynamic range of cultures, languages and nationalities encountered in my daily routine. The celebration and respect exhibited with regards to this diversity in my mind, made me feel quite at home.

4158 However, as I matured as a Canadian in this multicultural mosaic, I realized that the ultimate feeling of respect and belonging that I could possibly attain as an immigrant was to hear a familiar voice. I believe CARN will be that voice.

4159 A voice that will advocate about the unique issues of immigrant integration into our beloved Canadian society;

4160 A voice that will expound about the plight of our youth who need direction and positive role models;

4161 A voice that will project the peaceful and celebratory uniqueness of our different cultural background;

4162 A voice that will be proud to say without a doubt, first and foremost:

4163 CARN PRESENTERS: "I am Canadian".

4164 MR. GORDON: We appreciate the opportunity, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, to present our application before the Commission in this hearing.

4165 We are now ready to answer any questions that the Panel might have.

4166 Thank you very much.

4167 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--- Applause / Applaudissements

4168 THE CHAIRPERSON: We know we are appreciative, but we would prefer no applause. Applaud in your heart.

4169 Thank you, Mr. Gordon and your colleagues.

4170 Before we proceed, I would ask that you try to turn off your microphone when you are not speaking, because eventually we are going to get interference. So only put it on and then turn it off when you are finished.

4171 The important aspect that has to be discussed with you, of course, is the request for the exemption. I had a question I was going to ask you at the end of this process, but I will ask you at the beginning instead so that we understand better what we are after.

4172 You have given many reasons in your application and in your presentation this morning why you should get a decrease of the requirement for third language from 50 per cent to 20 per cent. You have relied, again today and in your application on the CPAM decision as a precedent. So I am going to look at the CPAM decision.

4173 I have looked at your application and the CPAM decision and tried to see to what extent it is similar.

4174 One of the problems that will have to be resolved for us is the extent to which the 79.3 per cent of your programming which will be in English will -- in fact 79.4 if you round it out -- will indeed be ethnic.

4175 The way it was done in the case of CPAM -- and I am reading now the very first condition of license, the only one really that is not addressed but is fundament, which was that -- I am reading from CPAM now:

"The licensee must devote all of its programming to French language ethnic programming..." (As read)

4176 In this case it was 100 per cent ethnic, so read what yours is, which is 90 per cent. Right? No, it is 100 per cent ethnic as well. Okay. So it is even more.

"...of its programming to French language ethnic programming..." (As read)

4177 And this is what is the important part:

"...targeting the Haitian community, the Latin American community and the African community with French as its first or second language." (As read)

4178 If I look at your Table 6.11, which was filed on June 25th as a response to question 5, what I read is that the English language -- it does say Chutney, Creole and Patois, but you see how much broader it is.

"...people originating from Caribbean countries for whom English dialects are spoken as a first language or a strong second language. Examples of the countries are: Dominica, Trinidad, Tobago..." (As read)

Et cetera.

4179 I wonder if you could turn this into something more similar or pointed so that it would be easy to determine whether the 79.4 per cent of your programming, which is very high, in English is actually ethnic programming.

4180 So what language would one use to do a similar sensing that we did in CPAM?

4181 You may want to talk to each other about this and come back to us at Phase IV with some language.

4182 Do you have a copy of the CPAM decision?

4183 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4184 THE CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, you know what we are driving at, it is how are we going to test that you are not programming to mainstream when 79.4 per cent over time -- how different will you be?

4185 THE CHAIRPERSON: I suspect from the fact that milestone seems to be supportive they feel your programming will be different, but how do you keep it that way for us, the regulator?

4186 Will you be directing some English language programming to any African countries or will you only serve the African countries in the third language?


4187 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, we have a lot of -- I don't know if you have our program schedule. If you look at the program schedule --

4188 THE CHAIRPERSON: But in this very general question --

4189 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, we will.

4190 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is no mention in that box beside English language programming directed to these groups. You mention Caribbean countries, not African.

4191 We want that clarified so that we can be satisfied that this is indeed an ethnic station with an exemption rather than a station that, without us being able to do anything about it, becomes mainstream.

4192 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, we will consider this.

4193 The challenge we face from predominantly an English speaking background, and as identified as an ethnic group in all demographics, is that our definition of English is a little wider. As the song demonstrated, it is not pure English that is readily interpreted by mainstream.

4194 The point I want to make is that because we are serving all the different countries of continental Africa, in many of our programs we need a common language at some point that can introduce different songs or different aspects that all our listeners who are from these ethnic communities will understand.

4195 We need to have a common base so that we can reach all of them at certain points in our programming. There are points in our programming where there will be specific targeted third languages to specific third language countries.

4196 Our general programming in other areas will be to all communities, and it is this area that we need to use English or our definition of English to be able to adequately meet those communities.

4197 THE CHAIRPERSON: Believe me, I understand the philosophy. What I am looking at, Mr. Blythe, is how does one transform that into an exemption that is not wide open? That is what I am looking at.

4198 How do you frame it, the way we did in the case of CPAM to say this is their intention, if there are complaints in two or three years, if you should get a licence, that they are doing what they are supposed to? So to tighten a bit who it is that you are aiming to serve in the English language.

4199 I understand the philosophy. I just want something that is translatable. Look at the CPAM and see if you can do something not dissimilar that to a complainant in two years, if you have a licence, you could say: No, no, no, I am doing what I was allowed to look at it. It is not there at the moment, and it may not be sufficiently sent in.

4200 Discuss it. Think about it and get back to us either later today or at Phase IV, because that will be crucial to whether or not we have a mechanism to test that what you are going to do as time goes on is what you said you would.

4201 Having said that, there are other conditions of licence imposed on CPAM, most of which are covered by your proposal.

4202 I hope you are familiar with what we mean by conditions of licence.

4203 MR. GORDON: Yes, we are.

4204 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4205 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are mechanisms that allow us to test, after we have given licences in a competitive environment, that people are doing what they said they would. Our role is to try to see that we get as much service as possible to as many groups as possible.

4206 Fourteen languages, 22 cultural groups is what you would accept. If we look at 6.11, there is a problem with the group, because some of them are double counted.

4207 Granted the language is different, but we have Nigeria twice as a group, Ghana twice and Ethiopia twice.

4208 That, by my arithmetic, would be 14 languages to 19 groups. What is your response to that suggestion?

4209 MR. BLYTHE: In our calculations we excluded those double countings, Madam Chairman. We certainly have --

4210 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mean 22 doesn't add up to --

4211 MR. BLYTHE: It does not include the groups that speak more than one language. We specifically quoted Nigeria once, for example.

4212 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will do the counting; and if so, there you are. That is what hearings are for, to set Commissioners straight.

4213 I must admit I didn't do the count. I only saw that they were double. I will expect one of you to do the counting and to confirm that I was wrong and you were right.

4214 You have spoken a fair amount in your presentation about the extent to which the Caribbean and I guess Afro-American or Afro-Canadian --

4215 MR. GORDON: Afro-Canadian.

4216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Afro-Canadian is underserved in Toronto. What is available, in your view, that would meet the needs of that community?

4217 MR. GORDON: You are asking what is available now?

4218 THE CHAIRPERSON: In radio.

4219 MR. GORDON: In terms of the Caribbean community, we do have small portions of programming on, for example, CHIN radio, CIRV and some of the community stations.

4220 However, we are faced with a huge problem. Most of these programs are available late at night.

4221 For example, in the CIRV Caribbean program, it starts at 1:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. That is indeed the kind of thing we have in this community, where young people, working people, seniors cannot enjoy Caribbean programming because of the late night programs that are available.

4222 While programs are going on, most of the community are asleep. Can we change that?

4223 THE CHAIRPERSON: Over and above the hour at which you would broadcast, what do you see that you would do that would fill the need that is different from what is offered now?

4224 MR. BETTY: Madam Chair, I think one of the things that the community severely lacks is the element of co-ordination -- co-ordination in terms of business, co-ordination in terms of social, co-ordination in the creation of our economic opportunities.

4225 Even with the community type programs that you have right now that essentially may provide some music, for example, there is not a consistent forum, a consistent voice, a consistent framework to express the process through which this community can bring itself together and address their issues internally.

4226 I think that, from my standpoint, is one of the greatest weaknesses facing the development.

4227 If you look at the statistics that have come out to date, they have shown very high unemployment within the African and the Caribbean communities. I think this is certainly in the area that if there is a voice that can speak and address issues that are crucial to our development, then within a period of time we are going to start seeing those results.

4228 That, Madam Chair, is presently not addressed by any means on any of the stations out there.


4229 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application, in the actual application form, at 6.1 under the Programming part, you say that you will have 25 hours and 20 minutes -- that is, 20 per cent -- in other languages, and in many other places you speak about 26 hours, which you did in your presentation today.

4230 You realize that 6.1 is prefaced by "by condition of licence", this is what you propose.

4231 That is acceptable to you as a condition of licence: 20 per cent, 26 hours in third language?

4232 MR. BLYTHE: We are aware of that.

4233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Languages other than English and French.

4234 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Also, once we ascertain that 79.4 per cent of the programming in English is indeed ethnic by our definition, you are also prepared to be bound by 100 per cent ethnic?

4236 MR. GORDON: We so do.

4237 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of course, there is .7 French, as well; right?

4238 MR. BLYTHE: There is a small percentage of French speaking African and Caribbean.

4239 THE CHAIRPERSON: But certainly a minimum of 26 hours, or 20 per cent third language; and all the programming, including that .7 French, would be ethnic.

4240 MR. BLYTHE: CARN will be 100 per cent ethnic programming.

4241 THE CHAIRPERSON: You talk in your presentation and in your application, as well, about the local aspects of your programming and the spoken word aspects of your programming.

4242 At 6.4 in the application form, as well, you say you will do a minimum of 88 hours and 20 minutes of local programming. But then in other parts of your application you speak of 75 per cent local.

4243 There is a discrepancy. By my calculation, 75 per cent is 94 hours, and the 88 hours is about 70 per cent.

4244 Can I take it from your supplementary brief, at page 2, that your commitment is 75 per cent, which would be 94 hours?

4245 If you look at your supplementary brief, which is Schedule 20, at page 2 -- I paginated it; it wasn't paginated. But on the second page of the script, in the first bullet at the top it says:

"Provide a minimum of 75 per cent of local programming."

4246 Are you comfortable with that? That is 94 hours.

4247 MR. BLYTHE: We are, Madam Chair.

4248 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are comfortable with that.

4249 Today, as well as in your application, you have 16 per cent spoken word, which is about 20 hours and 15 minutes.

4250 That is at page 6 of the supplementary brief, the sixth page under Part 4, Proposed Format, where you outline what you will do. It indicates 16 per cent of spoken word.

4251 Is that correct?

4252 MR. BLYTHE: That 16 per cent only refers to all talk programs.

4253 THE CHAIRPERSON: So there would be spoken word programming inside the local programming that is mixed with music.

4254 MR. GORDON: That's correct.

4255 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4256 THE CHAIRPERSON: What amount of spoken word, then, do you think there would be if you counted that in instead of the 20 hours?

4257 MR. GORDON: In general?

4258 THE CHAIRPERSON: It gives me an idea, as well, of what your musical programming will be like.

4259 You are talking here that Morning Drive would have music and spoken word. That is not calculated in the 16 per cent.

4260 MR. GORDON: No, not at all.

4261 THE CHAIRPERSON: And do you have any idea how much it would be?

4262 MR. GORDON: For the morning drive or in general?

4263 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, in general. Instead of 16 per cent spoken programming, how much would it be to calculate what is inside the musical programs?

4264 MR. GORDON: About 37 per cent, at least. A minimum of 37 per cent.

4265 THE CHAIRPERSON: And so the 16 per cent would be --

4266 MR. GORDON: Just the talk shows.

4267 THE CHAIRPERSON: Local talk shows.

4268 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who will produce the local programming?

4270 MR. BLYTHE: The local programming will be a combination of our own producers, as well as brokerage programming.

4271 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what would be the proportion between brokered programming and station-produced programming?

4272 MR. BLYTHE: We estimate that we will have about --

--- Pause

4273 MS MALONEY: Basically if you look at our programming's weekly schedule, the eight o'clock to midnight shows for the entire week will be brokered, in addition to our gospel shows from 5:00 to 9:00. Three hours of those will be brokered.

4274 We have an additional two hours. So in terms of hours we are looking at about 35 hours, approximately, that will be brokered out of the 126.

4275 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it's understood in the usual fashion that someone will buy the air and then sell advertising in it and you will have some contractual arrangements with that party.

4276 How will you ensure that all these complicated conditions of licence we are talking about are maintained by the broker?

4277 MR. BLYTHE: We will maintain control over the broker and we will enforce and require that they abide by the CRTC requirements in their brokered programming.

4278 We will provide them with all the CRTC requirements and make it a condition of --

4279 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are going to get into your own conditions of licence.

--- Laughter / Rires

4280 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4281 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, of course, after spending a few hours or a few days here you will experts.

4282 MR. BLYTHE: Thank you.

4283 THE CHAIRPERSON: To make sure that no one's programming to mainstream audiences and we have mainstream stations knocking on our door.

4284 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4285 MR. GORDON: I will explain a little bit further, Madam Chairman.

4286 I have worked with multicultural radio stations for the past 11 years and I understand clearly the requirements. I know the rules. At my station we have to live by the CRTC rules and regulations and it has to do with brokered programming.

4287 So I am well schooled for over 11 years now. So I understand what is required and we know that we will have to make sure that it is put in effect at CARN without a doubt.

4288 THE CHAIRPERSON: What has been your experience, Mr. Gordon, in radio broadcasting in Canada?

4289 MR. GORDON: I have been with CHIN Radio for over 11 years now as a producer and on-air announcer. I have been in charge of particular radio shows.

4290 I am the international sports' boy on 590 FAN, the sports station. Also, as a broadcaster, I was Rogers' television channel 10 sportscaster on the international show for a number of years. So I have done both radio and television, but radio, of course, is the best type of programming and that's the one I know best. I have had over, as I said, 11 years at CHIN Radio. That gave me the experience to be here today.

4291 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your supplementary brief again, in Schedule 20 -- it's on page 9, by my pagination, but it's under "Spoken word". You say, and I read:

"CARN's audience will be able to listen to and participate in in-depth discussions on issues related to and affecting their diverse local communities".

4292 Do I read from that that you will have open-line programming?

4293 MR. GORDON: Yes, we will have open-line programming.

4294 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you thought through whether there might be a need, because of the vulnerability of open-line programming to complaints or difficulties, to have some type of internal policies or mechanisms to ensure that they don't develop into problem programs?

4295 MR. GORDON: I will tell you, this is a very important part of it and again my experience at a multicultural station over the years taught me that lesson. We live by the rules and all our producers will have to live by those rules. It is very important because, of course, we know that the CRTC takes this part very seriously.

4296 So we will abide by all the rules and regulations and every single producer -- the law will be laid down to them. They will be given a copy of the rules. They will be trained as per the rules and we expect that these rules will be enforced, and I don't see a problem with that at CARN at all.

4297 THE CHAIRPERSON: What will those rules be? When you say "the rules", who will draft them? Because the Commission has issued an open-line document in 1988, but they are not really rules. What do you think is the best way to ensure that what you have just said is actually what happens?

4298 MR. GORDON: We will do what the CRTC asked, plus we have our counsel, our lawyer, and we will also, again, use some of the ones that have worked for other ethnic stations here in Toronto.

4299 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chairman, if I might also respond?

4300 We certainly will ensure, as required by the policy you are speaking about, to ensure that these shows are fair and balanced in their content and that the views are not in any way reflective of any extreme but maintain a balance in what is said.

4301 Using also our ability to delay, we can also control in terms of what goes on the air. So we are aware of some of the rules in terms of spoken word programming and, as Mr. Gordon said, we will incorporate them into our conditions of any brokered program, condition of employment as well at CARN.

4302 THE CHAIRPERSON: In what I counted as the 7th page of your Schedule 20, under "Background", you speak about the need for in-depth coverage of -- and I go to the third bullet and read:

"Dialogue on social, religious, cultural and critical issues of special interest to the Caribbean and African population".

4303 In your presentation today you talked about the broadcast of religious programming. I would conclude from that that you will have religious programs, and certainly as defined by our religious policy which defines religious quite broadly as including spirituality, et cetera. So you will be broadcasting religious programming.

4304 MR. GORDON: Yes, we will be broadcasting religious programming.

4305 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will they be more spoken word programs or religious offices, or celebrations?

4306 MR. GORDON: Yes, there will be a mixture of spoken word and music. We have three main religious within the African and the Caribbean community. Of course, we will be giving these groups equal time.

4307 We will have, for example, Ministers of religion with church services that will be broadcast on the station.

4308 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me an estimate of the number of hours that would be devoted to religious programming in a week?

4309 MR. GORDON: In a week?


4311 MR. GORDON: An average. It may not be the same or --

4312 MR. GORDON: There would be eight hours at this time, Madam Chairman. Eight hours per week.

4313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of religious programs?

4314 MR. GORDON: Of religious programs.


4315 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how familiar are you with the Commission's religious policy and the need to ensure some balance and to follow some guidelines about the solicitation of funds, et cetera?

4316 MR. GORDON: Again, at the radio station where I work I do also a religious show. I have to abide by the policy of the CRTC. We intend, through our consultants, CRTC consultants, make sure that we understand clearly the religious policies as laid down by the CRTC. But we are familiar with that because, of course, I presently have to go through that.

4317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you foresee any possibility of going much beyond these eight hours?

4318 MR. GORDON: Yes, there is a possibility. In the third language programming, of course, we have groups that will do some religious programming, announcements and, of course, prayers. The spiritual nature is very important to most African and Caribbean groups.

4319 We will be doing a little bit more, but we could not say at this particular point how much more will be done.

4320 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't have either a sense of what a ceiling would be. Twice eight hours or less or more?

4321 MR. BLYTHE: Religious programming in our community is primarily targeted on the mornings of the weekend which is usually the time we have broadcast recorded from the different faiths, and primarily that's the time slot we have programmed it for. Currently it's eight hours. Conceivably there could be another hour or two, depending on the demand for different faiths to have access to the station to reach the various communities. But we don't envision it to be significantly more than the eight hours on the weekend.

4322 THE CHAIRPERSON: And when you say "eight hours", are you including in that gospel, let's say a gospel music show?

4323 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4324 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4325 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of the religious programming would be non-Canadian?

4326 MR. GORDON: Non-Canadian? All of it will be Canadian.

4327 MR. BLYTHE: And local.

4328 MR. GORDON: And local, right here in our community because that's the problem we have. On the airwaves we have religious programming, but a lot of it comes from the U.S.A., a lot are Americans and a lot of our churches here.

4329 I could point to a Minister that we have here with us, Mr. David Graham, to expand on that a little bit further because that's one of the big problems at the local religious community is having. They cannot get on the air because it's dominated by the Americans who have perhaps a lot more money. Of course, you know the American dollar is powerful. So CARN would like to change that.

4330 Mr. Graham, could you expand a little?

4331 MR. GRAHAM: I think that's a relative point because the local church itself is suffering because of the fact that again we don't get to advertise our programs in terms of the local community.

4332 We have to remember that we are part of a community and the community, although we all benefit from the community, we also need to benefit from the religious programs. This is where we are starving as such. So here I am to voice that point, to support CARN in that effort.

4333 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we go back again to your Schedule 20, at the 8th page, under "Programming", at the very bottom you say, and I quote:

"CARN has received early expressions of interest from distributors of products and services directed at this market, as well as from religious organizations seeking opportunities to reach their constituents on air".

4334 What is intended here?

4335 MR. BLYTHE: From the religious organization, there are interest expressed in purchasing brokered time during those mornings to rebroadcast their services. Interest has been expressed also from distributors who would like to reach our targeted community because we are a specific market in terms of our consumption pattern and there have been much interest expressed from distributors of services as well as supply.

4336 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are addressing here either putting some programming on or sponsorship or advertising. Which is it?

4337 MR. BLYTHE: It is both.


4339 MR. BLYTHE: Both.

4340 THE CHAIRPERSON: And all Canadian?

4341 MR. BLYTHE: All Canadian.

4342 THE CHAIRPERSON: Spoken word.

4343 Ms Maloney, we were looking a little bit at the spoken word programming earlier. I think we ascertained that it would be overall some 37 per cent, but 16 per cent of really talk shows. Would those be "Caribbean and African Talk", 10:00 to noon. Is that how you would calculate --

4344 MS MALONEY: That is exactly what we are talking about.

4345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And "Caribbean and African News Roundup"?

4346 MS MALONEY: Yes. The "Caribbean African News Roundup", that is going to be like the news, the interviews sort of thing.

4347 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the evening 7:00 to 8:00 --

4348 MS MALONEY: Right.

4349 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- seven days a week.

4350 MS MALONEY: Exactly.

4351 THE CHAIRPERSON: Saturday noon to 2:00. Then "Cultural Dialect Fables" would be another one?

4352 MS MALONEY: In addition to that, "Ask the Expert", the "Youth Apprenticeship" program, the "Sports Roundup", all that sort of stuff.

4353 THE CHAIRPERSON: And a Caribbean program 7:00 to 8:00 on Sunday as well.

4354 MS MALONEY: Yes, the big ones.

4355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those would be what amount? That adds up to 26 hours. The rest of the percentage would be in the programs that are a mix of music and talk?

4356 MS MALONEY: An interviews and that.

4357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, 75 per cent of your programming would be local. What would be the source of the other 25 per cent, which I assume would not be Canadian?

4358 MR. GORDON: In our community --

4359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, could be non-local Canadian or non-Canadian.

4360 MR. GORDON: In our community -- I will ask Mr. George Marcells to also address this -- as you know, most of the people -- Marcells came from somewhere else to come to this beautiful country. There is still interest to know what is happening at home and the need to hear from home, the need to have news reports.

4361 Many people have been calling -- as a matter of fact I had to do that, call a Caribbean to find out about a hurricane that is hitting one of the islands. I had to do a little bit more because the information was not available on any other radio stations.

4362 So we will have news from home, from African countries, also from the Caribbean countries. This news will be done specifically to the Caribbean and African group from their respective countries.

4363 MR. MARCELLS: My name is George Marcells and I just want to add to what our President just said.

4364 Basically what this is is that CARN will be working in conjunction with other broadcasting stations on the continent of Africa to bring in material that will be edited within CARN to make sure that they adhere to the policies of the CRTC.

4365 Basically, most Africans from the continent have already been calling back home to ask for news and things that have been happening down there. For example, they just ended a World Cup soccer tournament. We wanted more information as to which players were officials by Senegal. We had to call back to Senegal, back in Ghana and other places to ask more about the status and conditions of some of the players.

4366 This has been part and parcel of the problems that we have been facing as Africans living here within the GTA, always calling back home, long distance calls to ask for information as to what is happening.

4367 With CARN radio station, when you license it, will help to avoid such situations by bringing in news materials from other radio stations back from the continent and we will make sure that our listeners will be part and parcel of the Canadian system.

4368 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would have some type of formalized feed or relationship with radio stations or journalists, or whatever, in the countries consigned to get a flow of information that you can then put on your station.

4369 MR. MARCELLS: That is correct.

4370 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess if it is massaged by you it could be local, if it is integrated into your programming. Will you have any Canadian news feed, national feed for example?

4371 MR. MARCELLS: Yes, that is the next point we will get to.

4372 We are using the BN services for national Canadian youth. Our own team will be gathering local news and have BN services for -- of course, we need to know what the Prime Minister is doing so we will us BN services for that. Other news services we will use for overseas. That will make up the 25 per cent.

4373 For example, the BBC Report, Channel Africa, these new lines. From the Caribbean CARNA, Caribbean News Agency. These are the three reliable feeds and the professional services that we will use to add to our 25 per cent.

4374 MR. KOROMA: Madam Chair, my name is U-Sheak Koroma. I think that is a very passionate area that the committee is actually dealing with.

4375 I think one of the --

4376 THE CHAIRPERSON: "The committee"?

4377 MR. KOROMA: I mean the organization here is dealing with.

4378 I think one of the most important things is the economic importance, not just to the African Caribbean community, but also to the rest of Canada. We know the mission statement of the Prime Minister of Canada, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, of actually working and bringing the African front line to the global village.

4379 I think CARN is actually going to enhance those kinds of facilities by working with local programmers in different countries, to the benefit economically and also for the crucial upliftment of everyone within the GTA, which we actually translate to the rest of the country.

4380 So it is a very unique and powerful mission statement that cannot be underestimated.

4381 MS MALONEY: I would also like to add that the powerful Internet is a beautiful thing and it allows us to get information on the spot as soon as it happens. A lot of local newspapers within the Caribbean for example, and in Africa, will upload their information onto an Internet site. You just type in the name of the newspaper and you will get up to date information, so also we will extract what is going on in our local communities back home.

4382 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, I will just give you a practical example that occurred yesterday of the type of integration with new agencies.

4383 Yesterday there was a flight going to Jamaica with some friends of mine who were going to a funeral. Because of the storm -- which we were not aware of, as Mr. Gordon mentioned earlier, because the news agency never reported it -- the flight was cancelled. They went to the airport and had to turn back.

4384 CARN will be that connection so that our community can know exactly what is happening.

4385 So now they are going back today. They didn't know if they should go the airport, what the weather is like in Jamaica.

4386 So that is the kind of practical example of ready information that will come from these kinds of sources, which would target our community so that they can be informed.

4387 THE CHAIRPERSON: I stand to be corrected by our staff, but I believe material you would take from the Internet, let's say, or newspapers, and integrate into your local programming would still be local. I think that is how it works. Yes.

4388 We were talking more about the actual international or non-local feeds like Broadcast News.

4389 MR. GORDON: Yes, Broadcast News, BBC, Channel Africa, et cetera, Caribbean News Agency.

4390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. My FM antenna went up when you mentioned committee, because I was just about to ask whether you had taken a cue from our ethnic policy and most of the presenters and thought about an advisory council for the purposes that are mentioned in the ethnic policy? I don't think I saw any mention of any in the application.

4391 MR. GORDON: No, we did not mention advisory counsel, but of course that is something that we must do.

4392 We have spoken to a few reputable people already to be on our advisory council, one of whom will be here as an intervenor, Dr. Howard McCurdy. Of course we have a lawyer here, Mr. Aston Hall. So we will be having reputable people, knowledgeable people and people who understand rules and regulations that will be part of our advisory council.

4393 THE CHAIRPERSON: What other role do you see from the advisory council? Mr. Gordon, as regulatory as we are, you are always talking about making the rules and making sure the rules are --

4394 What is the other role of the advisory council, in your view, that is of some importance, besides ensuring that the station is operating within its license as granted?


4395 MR. BLYTHE: We clearly have a commitment and we have expressed the commitment in our mission and in our vision statement. We took very serious consideration into putting those statements in our application because we intend to be held to those statements.

4396 Our advisory committee, along with our board, will ensure that the operations, CARN's objectives, whatever we do, not only conforms with the requirement of licenses, but in terms of what we have committed to our communities. So they will ensure the programming, the hiring, the operations, everything is in line with those statements which we have made.

4397 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are speaking here of the vision and mission statements on the third page of your Schedule 20.

4398 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4399 THE CHAIRPERSON: So one of the roles would be to see whether as time goes on these are respected in your programming.

4400 MR. BLYTHE: Yes. Yes.

4401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Music. If we go back to your application, the application form as such, at 6.6, I don't know if you noticed, but the breakdown here of the music, because you would be in a specialty format, that it is prefaced again by a condition of license. You are aware of that.

4402 So you would be prepared to have 75 per cent of your music in Category sub 33?

4403 MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we will.

4404 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it would be better to go this way: 90 per cent in Category 3 of the music. If I count all the subcategory 3, you end up with 90 per cent Category 3, and 10 per cent Category 2.

4405 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4406 THE CHAIRPERSON: Category 21.

4407 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4408 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the bottom under 6.7 you would accept, by condition of license, to not have a hit level higher than 10 per cent.

4409 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4410 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are comfortable with the fact that this is what you would be held to.

4411 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4412 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are prepared to accept a Canadian content of 15 per cent in the ethnic portion?

4413 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4414 THE CHAIRPERSON: The regulatory 7 per cent in the non-classic religious, that is the subcategory 35.

4415 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4416 THE CHAIRPERSON: You know that -- I don't know, maybe the staff can help with this.

4417 But 90 per cent Category 3, but then you would have 15 per cent Canadian content in all of your Category 3? I don't know where I got this, but I have 7 per cent for subcategory 35, which is the non-Catholic religious.

4418 MR. BLYTHE: No. The 15 per cent refers to our commitment to all music.

4419 THE CHAIRPERSON: All Category 3 music obviously --

4420 MR. BLYTHE: All categories.

4421 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and 10 per cent the 20 as well. All the music --

4422 MR. BLYTHE: All the music.

4423 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- will be calculated on 15 per cent.

4424 Now, the Commission reviewed this ethnic policy not too long ago, and after going around the country and hearing from people expressed a concern about whether to raise the 7 per cent. You have doubled it.

4425 You say in your supplementary brief, at the 15th page by my calculation -- let me help you.

4426 Under Canadian Content, which would be three pages from the end -- it's easier to count back -- you talk about an abundance of recorded Canadian, Caribbean and African music is now available.

4427 We would like you to tell us how comfortable you are, and for what reason that you can double the Canadian content in Category 3 and meet that commitment.

4428 MR. GORDON: We are aware -- I have a lot of friends who are musicians and most are not getting any air play.

4429 As I mentioned in my introduction, like the weatherman was saying from CityTV, he has a CD out -- I have this CD, a nice colourful CD, and although it is liked and listened to among the people of the Caribbean and Africa, yet he cannot get any air play at all.

4430 So we believe that CARN's purpose is to make sure that these underserved individuals or groups are given the opportunity to have their CDs -- and these are Canadians. A lot of them are local. They live locally here in Toronto or in other parts of Canada.

4431 We want to make sure that they have a voice on radio, that they have an outlet in which their music can be heard. We have been hearing their cries over the years for more air play, but they are just not getting it because the radio stations that are available now are not doing it.

4432 We are committed to that, and we feel comfortable that 15 per cent will not be a problem for us at all.

4433 MR. KOROMA: Further to what my brother is saying, there is actually the economic returns that spread among not just the musicians but music producers and all these kinds of people that are involved in the industry.

4434 I drive around in my car with well over 50, 60 CDs that are locally produced by people who live in Toronto from the Caribbean and African community. Most of these people make their CDs. They end up just with it at the back of their car or whatever.

4435 In actually creating a forum like this, let's don't forget that CD sales depend on how much hearing people get. The more people hear a CD or music being played, the more eager they are to dip into their pocket and go look for it.

4436 These are some of the areas that are missing. There are people who have created CDs for the last five years that just sit in their boxes. What happens is the CD producers, the engineers, do not get any returns.

4437 In CARN coming up with all these great ideas and giving air time to the local talent, it is creating a very important economic growth within Canada, not just for Toronto.

4438 MR. BLYTHE: Madam Chair, I stand here as someone who has performed and produced a CD, and I have personal experience with not getting air play.

4439 My group actually went and toured in England. We went to the United States where we got quite a lot of exposure. We sent our CDs to different commercial stations here, and they got completely lost somewhere.

4440 Mr. Gordon, who has his own show, is able to give us the kind of exposure that we long for. So we feel and we experience those things, and we are strongly committed to ensuring that the bright young talent that we know exists -- and there will be one such talent speaking to you as one of our intervenors, the artist Donna Makeda, who has produced her own works -- will see light at the end of the tunnel in terms of their economic viability, as my brother mentioned, as well as enriching the cultural music mosaic that is there.

4441 If you don't hear it, you don't think it exists. We want to change that.

4442 THE CHAIRPERSON: If an incumbent radio station or intervenor told us that we shouldn't give you a licence because you may end up as a mainstream station, considering that you will be at least 63 per cent music, if I deduct the 37 per cent spoken word, and that the program will be 79.3 per cent in English, what should I answer?

4443 MR. GORDON: Well, I would ask them to prove to me that they are playing our music. I played to you a song earlier on that I am quite sure most all here didn't even understand what was said. They won't play them. This is the music that we will play. The mainstream has not done it.

4444 Radio is not just yesterday in this country. I know a station that was 37 years in existence. There are radio stations around for 50 years and yet they have never done it.

4445 It would be very surprising now, Madam Chair, if one of these stations in Toronto were to come to you to make such a statement. They have never done it.

4446 As a condition of licence, we know that we cannot go mainstream. I don't want to get into the rules and regulations here. I don't want to be whipped by you. But we must follow the rules. We are not here to break any.

4447 THE CHAIRPERSON: We like your style.

4448 Your Canadian Content Development, after questions from the staff you refiled on June 25th both your Schedule 16 and detailed breakdowns of each of the projects or commitments you are making. I have a few clarifications.

4449 The first one is there is some confusion about the amount to FACTOR. In some places, especially in the breakdown filed on June 27th where you have the breakdown of the expenses, it shows FACTOR at $3,000 for a total of $21,000, and then $3,000 for the first three years, for a total of $9,000, and ends up with $30,000.

4450 In some places you say $27,000. I think in the script of Schedule 16 you have $21,000.

4451 Does it depend whether you combine the two?

4452 MS MALONEY: To FACTOR we are actually giving $21,000 over seven years; so it is the $3,000 per year.

4453 The additional $9,000 will be given to the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters. That is where the $9,000 comes in.

4454 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is a combination of the two.

4455 MS MALONEY: Exactly, for $30,000.

4456 THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you have something else?

4457 MS MALONEY: No, no. I was just saying to make up the $30,000.

4458 THE CHAIRPERSON: Under the CD compilations scholarship breakdown, I have a few questions.

4459 You have it broken down there. The budget for the production costs, what are these costs and who will bear them?

4460 You are aware of the costs and what is eligible. So the point of the question is to ensure that that is what occurs; that it is not a cost of doing business or something that is done by the station itself.

4461 So what are the costs of production under that commitment?

4462 MR. BLYTHE: These costs are all external, Madam Chair. They will be paid to external sources to provide these services, and we will fund them.

4463 These are not the use of any of our internal studios or any of our internal facilities. They are all external.

4464 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I look at year one under production costs for the CD, the $1,500 there would be the cost of doing it in an external studio that you would bear.

4465 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.


4466 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the scholarship fund -- some of which will flow from that exercise. Do I understand that correctly?

4467 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4468 THE CHAIRPERSON: From the sale. How will you choose the recipient?

4469 MR. BLYTHE: The recipient will be chosen from the Caribbean. They must be of Caribbean and African heritage, and they will be chosen from our association with post secondary institutions here, who will recommend to us students who have demonstrated the ability, in terms of broadcast journalism, who would like to pursue broadcast journalism.

4470 We will develop criteria with the institutions. We will not be the ones to directly select. We will ask the institution, as a third party, to make the recommendation for the recipient for the scholarship.

4471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would the people awarded scholarships all be Canadian?

4472 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4473 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have no problems making that a commitment; that if it is Canadian Talent Development --

4474 MS MALONEY: Canadian citizens.

4475 THE CHAIRPERSON: Under the breakdown, is all the scholarship money under Scholarship Fund? I don't see any under CD Compilation and Scholarships.

4476 These are just the costs, and then the scholarship is two $1,000, I think.

4477 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4478 THE CHAIRPERSON: So it will all be under Scholarship Fund.

4479 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4480 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Canadian talent search, you have broken down the cost here. Again we have production costs.

4481 What are those costs?

4482 MR. BLYTHE: Stage. We will pay for the construction of a stage, the sound equipment and the lighting that is required to put on the talent search.

4483 This will be paid to an external source.

4484 THE CHAIRPERSON: The promotion, it specifies external aid campaigns. So that will be something outside of your own station, will it?

4485 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4486 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was a leading question, wasn't it.

4487 Again, you have recognition awards. Who again will choose the awardees or those who will receive the awards?

4488 MR. BLYTHE: The awards will be chosen from a panel of exports who will be asked to judge the talent search, and they will make the recommendation as to who the awardees will be.

4489 THE CHAIRPERSON: And again all Canadian.

4490 MR. BLYTHE: All Canadian.

4491 MR. GORDON: As an example, we are qualified musicians. Some of them are teachers are colleges from the African Caribbean community.

4492 We are going to be focusing on these people.

4493 We have veteran musicians, like Calypsonian Jason, who is internationally known, living here in Toronto. These qualified people, we have spoken to some of them, and we have access to them.

4494 These are the people with credibility that we will be asking to judge and to select these people, both from the African and Caribbean community, so that we have a fair and level playing field.

4495 THE CHAIRPERSON: The live club concerts, would that be limited to Canadian performers?

4496 MR. BLYTHE: Yes. Again, Canadian Talent Development will focus on developing local, regional and national Canadians who, in our opinion, have the ability and require that little extra assistance in getting them the exposure.

4497 THE CHAIRPERSON: And will I get the same answer with regard to your pan-Afro jazz summer series; that that would feature Canadian performers?

4498 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4499 MR. GORDON: Just to expand on that a little, Madam Chair, Ms Joan Pierre, one of the brightest talents in Toronto -- you all know of CARIBANA, of course. That is the big --

4500 THE CHAIRPERSON: I often wish I could wear dresses like that.

--- Laughter / Rires

4501 MR. GORDON: Don't worry, we will have a costume ready for you next year.

--- Laughter / Rires

--- Pause

4502 MR. GORDON: Joan Pierre has been with CARIBANA as one of the chief organizers, and they put on programs and these programs involve a lot of local performers.

4503 Now, a lot of these performers are going to waste because no one is really recording them, et cetera.

4504 Joan, could you expand on this for me?

4505 MS PIERRE: It is a reality every year when we go through the CARIBANA festival that we see so much talent. It ends on the same weekend it started. They come with it. They have worked with it for months and we have no platform to take it further.

4506 I have been in this country over 30 years and it's an ongoing concern of mine that until we cross the border and then come back to Canada then we are somebody. It happens over and over again. We will record the music here, get the best that we can to do the work, and it goes to the States, or other parts of the world, and then returns to Toronto, or Canada on the whole. We are then recognized for the work that we do.

4507 I have a personal experience with my husband who is also a computer guy during the day, but a musician at night. Of course, we can't live just by the music so that's why he has the combination.

4508 His CD came out and we tried to get it working in Canada, in Toronto, and it's not. Guess where it's working very well? In Australia. It left this country and went to Australia. And do you know how they picked this up in Australia? Through the Internet. Then they had demands for us.

4509 So it's happening everywhere with our music and we have great talent here in all areas, but we don't have the opportunity and that voice for everyone to hear it and enjoy it, not just for us to hear it, our own people, but for everybody else in Canada, for all Canadians to listen and enjoy and expand their horizons and embracing the kind of music that we can bring to the forum.

4510 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your financials now. Your revenues show national advertising and your Schedule 12, which are your revenue assumptions, says that you have estimated to have national advertising as 15 per cent of the total spot advertisement.

4511 I would like you to address the suggestion that that is very optimistic in that even established radio stations don't expect this ratio of national to local advertising on radio.

4512 Why do you have such a high expectation of national advertising which is 15 per cent of the total?

4513 MR. BLYTHE: The term "national" in our calculation here, Madam Chairman, included multinational corporations who are trying to reach the Canadian market in terms of the African and Caribbean market. They are national in terms of their reach and they are seriously interested in reaching our community. So they were included in this ratio because of their target market is a very select market that they want to reach.

4514 An example would be like the food industry giants like the Grace Kennedy which is based in Jamaica who would certainly get a lot of its sales from this community. So we will see a lot more concentration from them in terms of the advertisement to us than perhaps the percentage than they would give to some other radio station because we are a niche and so they will be very interested in getting to us.

4515 Western Union, for instance, where we do a lot of money transfers, has expressed quite a lot of interest in doing advertising with us.

4516 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are addressing on the second page of Schedule 12, at the bottom of the page, where I read:

"Possible advertisers have already expressed serious commitment to purchasing significant blocks of available air time. Examples include various tourist boards of the Caribbean countries, specialty food distributors, remittance services and distillers."

4517 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4518 MR. GORDON: Yes. Ones that are not local here in Toronto, we refer to them as you see there.

4519 THE CHAIRPERSON: As national.

4520 MR. GORDON: The term may be a little bit -- because of what you are used to --

4521 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would not be national advertising in the sense that radio advertisers, be they ethnic or mainstream, speak about. It wouldn't be like purchases by Coca-Cola.

4522 MR. GORDON: No, not like Coca-Cola or McDonald's, or those, not at all. Of course, maybe they will be interested and come to us. A lot of our people seem to like Burger King a lot.

4523 MR. BLYTHE: Especially Kentucky Fried Chicken.

4524 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't try to get me into that --

--- Laughter / Rires

4525 THE CHAIRPERSON: I need feathers.

4526 So if a mainstream broadcaster had prepared your financial statements, where would that $334,000 have been, if you the normal term? Would it have been in that pot or would it have been with local?

4527 MR. BLYTHE: Some of it perhaps will be local because we still intend to go for the national advertisers like we just mentioned, Coca-Cola. Those are large organizations that purchase advertising all across Canada.

4528 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much would take out of that $334,000 if you repositioned what you tell me is local?

4529 MR. BLYTHE: Perhaps I would take out half.

4530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Half of that. Okay.

4531 Now, your revenue expectations are quite high: $2.3 million in year one, rising to $3.3 million in year seven. The context I say it's high is that the average revenue of the six ethnic stations in 2001 was $2.4 million.

4532 In year three, you have $2.7 million expected in revenues which is greater than all but two of the existing ethnic stations in 2001. That is greater than four of the existing stations that have matured in 2001. You expect to make more money than them by year three. Some of them have been on the air for a while, and yet in many cases they have better coverage than you technically.

4533 So how do I reconcile that? What do I say to some who says, "That's optimistic. They must be counting on mainstream or they won't be able to do what they said they would because they won't make enough money". How do you explain what appears to be the optimism of your financial projections?

4534 MR. BLYTHE: We have a combination of factors. For those, Madam Chairman, we realize that the African and Caribbean community, in terms of its purchasing pattern, based on a recent survey, was estimated in the GTA to be $5.3 billion, a significant amount of money and the average expenditure for each Canadian household is about $50,000.

4535 As a matter of fact, we estimate that we are going to pay about $1.1 billion in taxes this year, and I could go on about the amount we spend on shelter, food, tobacco. These are significant numbers which, if we take it in relation to other ethnic groups which are much smaller in terms of their numbers -- we are over half a million -- we are more optimistic based on the expression of interest from advertisers, based on the brokerage program that we have instituted in terms of our projections, based on the rates which we are charging which are significantly lower. It's very competitive and we even estimated a much conservative sell out.

4536 So we are aware of the pent-up demand that exists from advertisers, from our community here for how long we have been in Canada and cannot get the programs that we want. There is certainly, in our opinion, adequate resources.

4537 We have already done an estimate for revenues for advertising in the print media alone, and it was about $8 million and these are free print media, just advertisers alone in the Caribbean and African community.

4538 So we are pretty optimistic that with a 24-hour station, ethnic station, targeting that community, the niche market concept will appeal to advertisers and we have had many expressions from advertisers like the banks who would like to target their advertisement to this community because we tend to be very -- what is the word I am looking for -- committed to our readers, for our ethnic peoples tend to read them more than they would read the mainstream media. So advertisers tend to want to get into those media that is reaching the market.

4539 MR. GORDON: And I would add to that, a lot of our businesses are not advertising on radio at this time. One reason, they can't afford it, and secondly, the programs that are available are not the programs that they are looking for. They don't provide the type of programming, of course, that these advertisers are looking for.

4540 So most of our population, the African and Caribbean people they go directly to newspapers and, as Mr. Blythe just mentioned, there are millions that go to newspapers.

4541 In African and Caribbean countries, people who are business people here owning all these businesses they use the radio adverting. Radio advertising is pretty large and in small countries with two million people, you have eight, ten radio stations. They are all doing well. People like to hear their businesses mentioned on the radio. They don't have an opportunity right now in Toronto and so CARN will provide them that opportunity.

4542 So we are expecting -- of course, I don't want, when you look at the figures, to seem that we are overly ambitious, but we are expecting to do very well because there are so many sleeping giants there waiting just to get their businesses mentioned on the radio.

4543 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the deficiency response of the 7th of June, at question 18, you gave us your expected share at 0.2 in year one, 0.4 in year seven.

4544 I know at least of one station with a 2 per cent share who did not come close to reaching your expected revenues in year three, let's say. So how do you reconcile the small share with the large expected revenues?

4545 MR. BLYTHE: Again, Madam Chair, we are very optimistic. We are very determined to make this financially successful. There is quite a lot of growing African and Caribbean businesses in the community that are not in the market yet, and I don't know the relative size of the community to which you referred to in terms of the numbers to make a comparison in terms of their size as opposed to our size.

4546 THE CHAIRPERSON: You must be aware of Milestone's share already. I don't know if you are aware of its revenues

4547 MR. BLYTHE: In terms of their revenues?

4548 MR. GORDON: No, we don't like to --

4549 THE CHAIRPERSON: Something must be wrong here.

4550 Often there is a connection of some sort between share and how much revenue.

4551 MR. BLYTHE: Yes.

4552 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if we look at historical costs that we have, which I am not going to disclose, it is very optimistic to reach the revenues you are hoping for with the share that you are predicting.

4553 MR. BLYTHE: We certainly perhaps might be a little more over optimistic, but one thing that --

4554 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you were, what happens?

4555 MR. BLYTHE: We will certainly make the necessary changes on the expenditure side. Our costs are directly related to our revenue and certainly we will make sure that the station is viable.

4556 We do intend to get a lot of revenue, about 26 per cent from paid brokered programming. That is, I would say, not something subjective like to the BBM rating, it is brokerage which is sold as blocks. There is expressed interest and it is more guaranteed, if I could use the term, than, say, spot advertising.

4557 THE CHAIRPERSON: In that same letter of response to our questions, at Question 19 you give us what you expect to be the sources of your revenue. You have nothing under "Other Media".

4558 You have mentioned a vibrant availability of print. Are you not expecting to perhaps redirect some of the advertising in the print directed to the communities you will serve to your radio station.

4559 I don't know if you have that. You have 10 per cent from local market radio stations and increases in budgets for 20 per cent, 10 per cent from local, and new advertisers for 70 per cent and nothing under "New Media". Did you put under "New Advertisers" some from print?

4560 MR. BLYTHE: Yes. We certainly did not quite understand the term "Other Media" and a lot of our expectation of revenue from the print was included in the "New Advertisers".

4561 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have already been scolded yesterday that it was not clear, because somebody ended up with 110 per cent. Maybe will have to look at that. You don't understand either.

4562 So there would be some redirected from papers at sources of revenue.

4563 Now, we are talking about share and how much you reach. In part 4.2 under "Population Proposed" you have 647,000 in this three millivolt contour and the 15 microvolt contour of the AM. So what does that figure represent, the total population reached or the population you are targeting?

4564 MR. GORDON: Could you repeat the section?

4565 THE CHAIRPERSON: In part 4.2 under "Marketing" where you are asked to provide -- based on the service contour and your estimate of the population, what will be your principal marketing area or population that you will reach. You have your three microvolt and your 15 millivolt contours there at 640,000. What does that number represent?

4566 MR. BLYTHE: The numbers as given to us by our engineer based on the reach of the signal represent the households within that geographical reach.

4567 THE CHAIRPERSON: But household is 280,000 and the 647,000 would be the entire population.

4568 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4569 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of which how many people do you think will be of the groups or languages that you are targeting?

4570 MR. BLYTHE: I think the population that he had was 2.4 or thereabouts in terms of the number in the population.

4571 If I could just take a second, I will spin to the --

4572 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to relate what your potential will be to the contour, the technical contour if you had both frequencies.

--- Pause

4573 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess the 15 contour under the AM would be the interference-free contour. You don't have your technical consultant here?

4574 MR. BLYTHE: No.

4575 THE CHAIRPERSON: The three would be the FM.

4576 Maybe you could get that information for when you come back at Phase IV as to what is your targeting. What is the population of the groups you are targeting, if it is possible, extrapolated from that number.

4577 I have a few questions now about technical.

4578 When you were asked in that June 7th letter at Question 14 whether you needed both frequencies and if you only had one which was your choice. I think your answer was you would be prepared to accept either. Of course you prefer the FM --

4579 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4580 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- if you only had one.

4581 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4582 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of course your first preference is to have two so that you have the rebroadcaster.

4583 You say, and I read from the answer to Question 15:

"The proposed program format would be implemented if we received any of the stations applied for." (As read)

Or I guess either. Right?

4584 You are confident that you could get your revenue estimate even if you had only the FM without the AM?

4585 MR. GORDON: Yes. The AM is intended for outside of the GTA population. Inside the GTA, that is where the bulk of our population and businesses are.

4586 As you rightly said, we ask for that AM, the repeater, not a different --

4587 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would add to the population that you reach.

4588 MR. GORDON: That is correct.

4589 THE CHAIRPERSON: Including some of the targeted population.

4590 MR. GORDON: That is correct.

4591 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you feel that you could implement your proposal with the FM only.

4592 MR. BLYTHE: In terms of the programming, we will implement the programming with the FM only, but you are correct in pointing out that it certainly will affect the reach which in turn will affect some of our projections.

4593 When we did our projections we did it based on both, the rebroadcast. But should we be licensed for the FM, it certainly would have some minimal impact on our projections in terms of our revenues.

4594 THE CHAIRPERSON: At Part B of that answer, and I read again from the application:

"Approval of the FM station is not contingent on the approval of the AM station or vice versa." (As read)

4595 Your engineer filed a letter with us, I believe -- yes. That is a letter to Mr. Blythe dated July 5, 2002 from Mr. Elder. On the second page, in the middle of the page, one paragraph says, and I quote:

"No other alternative FM frequency is technically feasible or acceptable at present." (As read)

4596 However, in the last paragraph, and I read again:

"In this case, we are confident that one or two suitable alternative frequencies can be proposed and details specified later this month." (As read)

4597 I'm not sure whether he is talking about another AM frequency or another FM frequency.

4598 You don't know?


4599 MR. GORDON: We are talking about wondering whether there were smaller FM signals there that we could use as a --

4600 THE CHAIRPERSON: In lieu of 105?

4601 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4602 THE CHAIRPERSON: In lieu of the proposed AM? You mean you could have an FM rebroad, a small FM rebroad.

4603 MR. GORDON: That is correct.

4604 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or possibly an AM one?

4605 MR. GORDON: Yes, smaller ones. Other stations -- of course, in Toronto one particular has used repeaters. So we were more wondering about repeaters, whether or not there were smaller ones available to do so instead of going after, let's say in AM we would get smaller FM repeaters. That is the question we asked and that is the answer that he gave.

4606 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do I take it from this that if you were granted your first choice, the FM, you would accept the licence, you would implement your proposal as planned, and you would look for another alternative if you needed a repeater?

4607 MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we would. If we are licensed with the FM it would consider exploring the feasibility of a small repeater FM to reach our market.

4608 THE CHAIRPERSON: What if instead we gave you 790 AM?

4609 MR. GORDON: Would you do that to me?

--- Laughter / Rires

4610 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which was intended to be the repeater. Would that work as well?

4611 MR. GORDON: We would prefer to have the FM 105.1 for various reasons.

4612 The music. Music played constantly on AM stations today is not the same. Music is very, very important, as you know, to our community, to our culture. Indeed FM would be the very first choice. The first choice.

4613 But, for example, if there were any means for the AM signal to be expanded and would reach the community in its fullness, then of course we would not say no.

4614 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are my questions.

4615 Commissioner Cardozo has a question for you.

4616 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair.

4617 I just wanted to make sure I understood a few things here.

4618 On the matter of the exemption from the ethnic policy in terms of third language, you have asked for an exemption, I understand the case you have put forward. But you are planning to do 20 per cent third language and is your request to be exempt from the 50 per cent all together or would you accept 20 per cent instead of 50 per cent third language?

4619 MR. BLYTHE: We are prepared to accept as a minimum 20 per cent third language programming.


4621 MR. BLYTHE: The exemption applies simply because the bulk of our ethnic programming to our ethnic community will be in English.

4622 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But you would be okay with instead of saying that you would provide 50 per cent third language in accordance with the policy, that you would provide 20 per cent third language programming.

4623 MR. BLYTHE: Minimum.

4624 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you are asking for an exemption down from 50 per cent to 20 per cent?

4625 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4626 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Not completely zero --

4627 MR. BLYTHE: No.

4628 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: -- as is the case, if I am not mistaken, with CPAM?

4629 MR. BLYTHE: Correct.

4630 MR. GORDON: That is correct.


4632 I see this as partly a revenue issue perhaps, because I think given the range of your programming you probably -- going by trends in other ethnic stations, you will be able to generate more of your revenue from the English programming than from the third language programming when you talked about cutting your expenditures if your rosy picture didn't come through. We wouldn't want to see you cutting the third language programming.

4633 MR. BLYTHE: No, we would not. We could not do that at all because third language programming is very, very important. We of course, again, would have to abide by the condition of our licence.

4634 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Some thoughts on overlap.

4635 As I look at your application and flow, 93.5, the Milestone station, there is a certain amount of overlap in music genres. They do a certain amount of Caribbean music, reggae, calypso, soca, according to what they have put forward.

4636 MR. GORDON: I like the term "according to what they put forward".

--- Laughter / Rires

4637 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't want to go too far into their licence because the hearing is on yours. I would see the one larger differentiation is in, for example, the hip hop music where they have a large degree of hip hop music catering to the hip hop culture, the term they use.

4638 Of course there is gospel, and you are doing gospel too.

4639 As I say, your station has a large amount of Caribbean music; the various African genres, highlife, juju, and so forth.

4640 Is it fair to say very little African-American, if I can use that? Is that a fair term to refer to jazz, soul, hip hop?

4641 MR. GORDON: For us?


4643 MR. GORDON: We want to dedicate our music to Canadians and of course to African and Caribbean.

4644 You spoke about gospel. Mostly they play American gospel, which is urban gospel. Our emphasis will be on Caribbean and African gospel. We have hundreds of thousands of these available to us.

4645 So whatever the music is. Even with jazz, pan jazz originates out of Trinidad. This is the kind of jazz that we will play, jazz that you don't hear on a regular jazz program.

4646 We won't be interfering with any other programs at all in terms of their music.

4647 If we play any hip hop, it will be hip hop only by a Caribbean or African person who is a Canadian living here. Those are the ones that we want to put forward, because those are the ones that are not getting fair play at this time.

4648 So even though the name of the music may be the same, the difference is we are focusing on Caribbean and African cultural music. That is the big difference between us and the other stations.

4649 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. I appreciate that clarification.

4650 I have one other question, Ms Maloney, on the matter of scholarships or prize recipients. You said they would be for Canadian citizens.

4651 Would you include in that definition landed immigrant? I would assume you would, given the nature of your planned listenership. But the main differentiations are not looking at foreign nationals, people who may be coming through playing music and moving on.

4652 What you are dedicated to is developing the Canadian talent scene.

4653 MS MALONEY: Right, from the Caribbean and Africa.

4654 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.

4655 Thank you, Madam Chair.

4656 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

4657 Me STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

4658 Just to follow up on that, can we clarify once again your answer to Commissioner Cardozo's last question with respect to what is included within the term "Canadian citizen" for CTD purposes?

4659 MS MALONEY: It will be landed immigrant, Canadian citizens from Caribbean and African descent, living within the whole of Canada.

4660 MR. STEWART: But it would be restricted to citizens as distinct from landed immigrant.

4661 MS MALONEY: Not necessarily. I threw that in. Landed immigrants will be included in that.

4662 MR. STEWART: So Canadian residents, then.

4663 MR. GORDON: That's correct. That is a better term, Canadian resident.

4664 MS MALONEY: Yes, I would use that.

4665 MR. STEWART: Does that apply for all of the contests, all CTD activities?

4666 MS MALONEY: That is everything.

4667 MR. STEWART: My next question is whether you would be prepared to accept a condition of licence that a minimum of 79 per cent of all your ethnic programming broadcast would be in English and English dialects: chutney English, Creole, Patois, as reflected in your schedule?

4668 MR. GORDON: Yes, we will.

4669 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4670 The brokered revenues that you expect to receive, where would I find them in your projection of revenues that you filed?

--- Pause

4671 MR. BLYTHE: They are included in the local amounts.

4672 MR. STEWART: As we have asked other applicants, would you please file for the Commission a breakout of those local revenues as between advertising revenues and brokered revenues on a year-by-year basis.

4673 And if you could file that with the Commission by Monday mid-day, that would be very helpful.

4674 MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we will.

4675 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4676 Ce sont toutes mes questions, madame la présidente. Thank you.

4677 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Gordon, Mr. Blythe or Ms Maloney, do you think that you could file with us earlier than Phase IV a suggested fence for that 79.4 per cent of your programming, as we discussed earlier?

4678 Do you still remember our conversation?

4679 MR. GORDON: Yes.

4680 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that we can have a chance to look at it to see if that would work.

4681 MR. GORDON: When would you like this?

4682 THE CHAIRPERSON: To be clear on the purpose or the aim of this.

4683 MR. GORDON: Could we get a copy --

4684 THE CHAIRPERSON: Give copies to the Secretary as soon as you have thought of something that you think would meet the concern, so that we can have a look at it before we see you again.

4685 MR. BLYTHE: Yes, we will.

4686 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

4687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you to all of you for your co-operation. Give our best to brother Whiley.

4688 MR. BLYTHE: Thank you very much.

4689 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn for the day, and we will resume with the three 1540 applications at 8:30 tomorrow morning.

4690 We will begin again with the next application -- and the Secretary will tell what it is -- at 9 o'clock on Monday morning.

4691 MR. LEBEL: It will be the Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.


4693 Alors, lundi matin à 9 heures nous reprendrons avec la demande de la Coopérative. Merci.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1545, to resume

on Friday, September 20, 2002 at 0830 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1545, pour reprendre le

vendredi 20 septembre à 0830

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