ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Toronto, Ontario - 2002-09-17

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2002-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 17, 2002 le 17 septembre 2002

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications &

applications further to Public Notice CRTC 2000-39

"Call for applications for a broadcasting licence to carry on

a radio programming undertaking to serve Toronto, Ontario"/

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples ainsi

que des demandes suite à l'avis public CRTC 2000-39

"Appel de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant

l'exploitation d'une entreprise de programmation de radio

pour desservir Toronto (Ontario)"

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente

David Colville Commissioner / Conseiller

Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère

Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager / Gérante

de l'audience

Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire

Alastair Stewart Legal Counsel /

conseiller juridique

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Travelodge Hotel Hôtel Travelodge

Toronto Yorkdale Toronto Yorkdale

2737 Keele Street 2737, rue Keele

Toronto, Ontario Toronto (Ontario)

September 17, 2002 le 17 septembre 2002

PAGE / PARA NO.

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR

International Council for Diversity

in Film and Television 7 / 43

Arc Broadcasting Inc. 23 / 136

3885275 Canada Inc.

"Canadian Multicultural Radio" 102 / 568

Canadian Thamil Broadcasting Corporation 191 / 1084

Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)

--- Upon commencing on Tuesday, September 17, 2002

at 0940 / L'audience débute le mardi

17 septembre 2002 à 0940

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing to examine applications for radio licences to serve and reflect the diverse population of the Greater Toronto Area.

2 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs, et bienvenue à cette audience publique destinée à examiner des demandes de licence de radio visant à desservir et à refléter les diverses communautés de la Région du Grand Toronto.

3 My name is Andrée Wylie. I am the Vice-Chair, Broadcasting for the CRTC, and I will be presiding over this hearing.

4 Joining me on the Panel are, to your extreme right, David Colville, Vice-Chair of Telecommunications; next to him, Commissioner Cindy Grauer; to the left of me, Commissioner Andrew Cardozo; and at the end is Commissioner Andrée Noël.

5 The CRTC team that will be assisting us in this proceeding includes Hearing Manager Joe Aguiar, Legal Counsel Alastair Stewart and Hearing Secretary Pierre LeBel. If you have any question at all about the proceeding, please don't hesitate to ask them.

6 The purpose of this hearing is to consider applications for licences to operate AM, FM and/or transitional digital programming undertakings to serve the GTA.

7 Pour résumer la situation, le 13 septembre 2000 le CRTC a reçu un décret du gouvernement fédéral lui demandant de présenter un rapport sur les mesures à prendre pour que les résidents de la Région du Grand Toronto reçoivent une variété de services radiophoniques qui reflètent la diversité de leurs langues et de leurs cultures.

8 The Commission submitted its report to the government on January 31, 2001. It stated, among other things, that should the CRTC receive an application for the use of an AM or FM frequency to serve the GTA market, it would issue a call for additional applications, but only for applications clearly reflecting the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA.

9 Le 20 juillet 2001, Industrie Canada a précisé la capacité de radiodiffusion supplémentaire dont disposerait la Région du Grand Toronto pour la radio. En même temps, le ministère a souligné qu'il étudiait d'autres options pour trouver des moyens d'accroître encore cette capacité de transmission de programmation radiophonique.

10 On January 22, 2002, Industry Canada informed the Commission that it had finished its testing of radio receivers for the GTA. It further indicated that some relaxation of the technical rules would be feasible and that this relaxation would result in the addition of one more FM channel in the GTA.

11 Industry Canada also stated that it was in the process of changing the technical rules and would be ready to consider applications under the existing or the new technical rules later in 2001.

12 Following the Commission's call for applications, we are hearing 17 radio applications over the next two weeks as part of our ongoing efforts to make our broadcasting system more reflective of Canada's culturally and linguistically diverse population.

13 The applicants have been asked to provide evidence that there is demand in the market for their proposed service. We will also be considering other issues, including:

14 (1) the expected audience of the proposed service;

15 (2) the contribution that the service would make to achieving the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the production of local and regional programming;

16 (3) the means by which the applicant would promote the development of Canadian talent, including local and regional talent;

17 (4) an analysis of the markets involved and potential advertising revenues; and

18 (5) evidence of the availability of financial resources consistent with the financial projections of the applicant's business plan.

19 On September 12th -- that is, last Thursday -- the Commission issued a policy framework for a specialty radio services, largely of an ethnic nature, for digital distribution.

20 Given the number of applications before us compared to the number of frequencies available, you may be asked or you may wish to comment on the suitability of this avenue for your proposal.

21 Before hearing the application schedule to be heard, we will hear a general representation by Mr. Paul de Silva, on behalf of the International Council for Diversity in Film and Television.

22 We expect this hearing to last two weeks, possibly longer. Beginning tomorrow, we will sit from 8:30 a.m. to approximately 5:00 p.m., with a one-hour break for lunch. I will let you know in advance of any change in the schedule.

23 You must turn off your cellphones and pagers when you are in the hearing room. They are an unwelcome distraction for participants and Panel Members. We certainly would appreciate your cooperation in this regard at all times during the hearing.

24 Vous devez fermer vos cellulaires et vos téléavertisseurs lorsque vous vous trouvez dans la salle d'audience car ils constituent une distraction importune pour les participants et les membres du groupe d'audition. Nous comptons sur votre collaboration à cet égard pendant toute la durée de l'audience.

25 I am pleased to see that the Commissioners are turning theirs off, because the punishment is impeachment.

--- Laughter / Rires

26 I will now ask the Hearing Secretary Pierre LeBel to explain the process that we will following.

27 Je vais maintenant demander au secrétaire de l'audience, M. Pierre LeBel, d'expliquer la procédure que nous suivrons.

28 Mr. Secretary, please.

29 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

30 Before we begin, I have a few housekeeping matters.

31 First, I would like to indicate that the Commission's examination room is located in the Westin Room adjacent to the hearing room. Public files of the application being considered at this hearing can be examined there.

32 Second, there is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table to my left, in the centre. If you have any questions about how to obtain all or parts of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break for information.

33 If you want to have messages taken, we will be happy to post them outside the public examination room. The phone number in our public examination room is (416) 630-1859.

34 If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact me or the examination room officer, and we will be more than pleased to assist you where we can.

35 The next announcement concerns Item 3 on the agenda, the application by the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation.

36 The Commission was advised by the applicant, in a letter dated 10 September 2002, of an error in its financial operation projections affecting its non-appearing expenses, the pro forma statement of changes and the pro forma balance sheet.

37 Recognizing that the revised pages do not materially change the overall application, the changes have been accepted by the Commission, and a copy of that letter has been placed on the applicant's file and is available for viewing in our examination room.

38 The next announcement concerns Item 9 on the agenda, the application by A. Fitzroy Gordon, OBCI.

39 The Commission was advised after the deadline for the submission of interventions that the day-time transmitter power should have read 1,000 watts instead of 2,050 watts and that the night-time transmitter power should have read 250 watts instead of 50 watts.

40 Madam Chair, as you have indicated, the first item on our agenda this morning will be a general representation made by the International Council for Diversity in Film and Television.

41 Appearing for the Council is Mr. Paul de Silva. I will ask Mr. de Silva to introduce his colleagues.

42 Mr. de Silva, you have ten minutes to make your presentation.

PHASE I

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

43 MR. de SILVA: Thank you. Merci, monsieur LeBel.

44 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I am here today representing, as Pierre has said, the Council for Diversity in Film and Television, an organization whose goals are to promote and facilitate the production of film and television programs that reflect the diversity of our communities.

45 I would like to begin by thanking the Commission for giving us the opportunity to appear before the Commission on matters relating to the reflection of cultural diversity on television in the Toronto area while you are holding your hearings on multicultural radio.

46 We are aware that we have only a short time, so I will begin by introducing my colleagues, who will each speak briefly on behalf of the organizations they represent.

47 First off is Claire Prieto, who is speaking on behalf of the Alliance of Producers for Cultural Diversity.

48 Beside Claire is Vanz Chapman, who is one of the outstanding writers and producers from our community. He is the writer and producer of the groundbreaking new multicultural television series presently in production, called Lord Have Mercy, which will be on Vision Television, the New Toronto One that you have licensed in the Toronto area, Showcase Television and on APTN.

49 Beside Vanz is Derek Luis, who is representing the ReelWorld Festival and Foundation that just held its very successful second film festival in Toronto. They will be speaking shortly.

50 I would like to begin by mentioning, as I mentioned, that the Council has been established and was launched just recently in the Banff Television Festival to facilitate the production of TV programs that are by and about the diverse cultural communities of our country. There is more information that can be obtained on our website.

51 As the former Vice-President of Programming and Head of Independent Production for VisionTV, a network that has been recognized by the Commission for its cross-cultural programming and its commitment to reflecting the cultural diversity of Canada and indeed the world, I was acutely aware of the problems of financing and broadcasting in prime time programs which reflect cultural diversity.

52 I should say that our concerns today are primarily in the area of drama and documentary on television.

53 While we applaud the Commission's recent emphasis on cultural diversity by the establishment of a task force on the subject, by its requirements for broadcasters to file plans for the reflection of cultural diversity and recent licensing decisions in this market, we are concerned that there appears to be no specific requirements on the part of broadcasters, as well as there appears to be no specific measures of success for evaluating progress in this area.

54 While we acknowledge that this is a complicated and sensitive issue, we feel that it was precisely the establishing of specific goals and promises of performance that have led to the success of initiatives to increase the level of Canadian content in both radio and television in Canada.

55 In the absence of specific requirements, how are we to know when success has been achieved? And what are the incentives for broadcasters to attempt to achieve the desired increase in the reflection of our diverse communities on their networks?

56 For many of us who work as writers, producers and directors, there appears to be a very large gap between the expressed desire for greater cultural diversity on television and the means by which to achieve this. Simply put, we would like to paraphrase a recent popular song that in fact is a resurrection of an old song: We would like a little less conversation and a little more action.

57 How to achieve this? That is the $64,000 question.

58 There is no question of the need for this. The Commission has already recognized this and the statistics and the demographics, not to mention the important moral reasons for doing this are now readily available.

59 In fact, a quick survey of recent speeches by the Honourable Sheila Copps, Minister of Heritage, could provide all the statistical information required for this effort.

60 While recognizing that instituting a societal change -- which I believe is what we are talking about -- is always a slow process, we believe that there are several successful models we can draw on while creating, as we often do, our own unique Canadian model.

61 Je crois que le Canada est un des pays du monde qui essaient très fort de trouver les façons équitables de réfléchir le visage changeant de ses citoyens.

62 No doubt this change will come. The issue is the pace of change and how much will be lost in human potential and opportunity if we do not seize the opportunities now ahead of us.

63 The Commission plays a crucial role in this process. We would like to urge the Commission to engage in a regular process of discussion and consultation with members of our community on how we can work together to bring about these changes. There is no question that the talent, the stories and the desire exists in abundance to enrich the Canadian broadcasting system in ways that we can only begin to imagine.

64 I thank you and I pass it on to my colleague, Claire Prieto, from the Alliance of Producers of Cultural Diversity.

0955

65 MS PRIETO: Thank you. I am a producer in Canada, formerly documentary and now dramatic work. I also work with other producers as a line producer, as a PM, as a whatever.

66 I am presently the line producer and PM for Lord Have Mercy. That was a bit of a fight and happily a fight that turned out pretty well.

67 In terms of the producers group, we basically come out of a reality that says in some ways it is very difficult to exist, to make a living and to say what we feel we need to say on the airwaves, on television and in film. That is where that comes out of.

68 There are about 29 producers of colour represented there. We felt that that group should be formed by producers because that is who initiates all the work.

69 The crews are there. The writers are there. The directors are there. It is a matter of getting the work done.

70 Part of the frustration we feel, and I feel as well personally, comes out of what I call the diversity word. I would like to find another word for what this all is.

71 I will be very specific. What we see happening is the word is talked about. There are these lovely guidelines; for instance, Telefilm guidelines and various places that say here is what must happen. There are some specialty channels, as well, who are interested in our kinds of stories.

72 However, to achieve something, it has to be broken down piece by piece. When a baby begins to walk, it crawls first. It turns over first. It learns certain skills.

73 If I take specifically the Telefilm guideline -- and I only take it because we have been looking at it so much and how it relates to everything else -- it says that we commit to this. But in the breakdown there is nothing that says how we achieve this.

74 In terms of their commitment to aboriginal programming, French programming and small producers, there is a commitment that is shown in their point system. You get additional points for aboriginal programming. You get additional points for French programming, because what that says is you need a bump. We want this to happen.

75 You get no additional points if you are a producer of colour trying to do a show of colour, and that is specifically what needs to happen for this to occur.

76 Partly what happens as well is in the big picture for the most part it is easier to get our stories told with smaller broadcasters. We are with APTN. We are with Vision. We are with Showcase, those kinds of people.

77 However, part of the difficulty we had on this particular show getting the money happening through Telefilm was just that. The smaller broadcasters, they say, don't have the range. They are not going to bring the audience. So if the show is not on CBC and CTV, you have a problem. What it means in reality is that a lot of the smaller broadcasters, because they are unable to bring that kind of licence, these shows will not occur.

78 So while we talk about and license smaller broadcasters, then there also needs to be a space where this reality works, this idea of difference in terms of the variety of broadcasters and the variety of work.

79 If it is that only the CBC and the CTV can get shows done, then we are in deep trouble.

80 That is particularly what I would like to see achieved in all spaces so that those things happen; the breakdown happens.

81 How do we? And I think the "how do we" is always asked.

82 Just the way it was done for women. At the NFB and at different places there are specific goals. There are numbers. How is the money being spent? It is all a detail.

83 Have we achieved this year? And how can we do it? It is there and it has been done.

84 I think those are the main things that I need to say. Thank you, and I hope we can get it changed.

85 While he is talking, I will invite you to our show. It is called Lord Have Mercy.

1000

86 MR. CHAPMAN: I believe in being proactive rather than reactive. Obviously, you can see by the audience here that the landscape is changing. As Paul said, rather than have people get angry because of not having representation on television and radio, why not anticipate that?

87 As Paul said, to reiterate, put teeth into the rhetoric that is out there, the Broadcast Act. Like Claire said -- we have just gone to this -- the Broadcast Act in 1991 says that television has to reflect the cultural and racial diversity of the country.

88 But that's all it does. It doesn't mandate any specifics by the broadcaster or the funding agency. So it just lies there dead, as a dead piece of rhetoric.

89 What I think needs to happen, as Paul and Claire have said, is there needs to be specific goals, specific guidelines, that on the federal and provincial levels broadcasters and funding agencies have to achieve and have to report for. It is not rocket science. It is quite simple.

90 I think it just takes a real commitment, not just a commitment to looking at problems but a commitment to solving problems.

91 As I said, let's be proactive rather than reactive. Thank you.

92 THE CHAIRPERSON: How long will you be?

93 MR. LUIS: Thank you. I will just cut to my recommendations and say that after years of being in the industry as a film and television producer, I really feel that it can't be left to the industry. I have been accepted into the Alliance/Atlantis Executive Program, and I will be a leader in this industry and work for change internally.

94 I want to encourage the CRTC to take bold steps. There is a huge need for statistical measurement, and I would challenge the CRTC to create a report that we can use to monitor and support the industry in these changes and publish this annual report that is a state of the industry.

95 I would also like that report to be used to monitor some of the diversity delinquents so that they can be coached in the industry, players, and supported; and also to get the CRTC to identify benchmarks, best practices according to the best of what is going on in Britain, Europe and the United States, who are ahead of us in the game in some of the amazing initiatives that they have there.

96 I would also like the CRTC to take a leadership role in bringing the industry together and finally look at some of these best practices and look at what other ideas there may be in the community.

97 As an actor I spent years playing various multicultural misfits and Latin lovers and other stereotypical characters, and I vowed in ten years to learn about the industry and come back as a leader to help change things.

98 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

99 You have to be careful, because I am the one who gets it from the Secretary.

100 MR. de SILVA: We thank you, Madam Chair, and the staff for giving us this opportunity and the audience for letting us be a part of this hearing.

101 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. de Silva and your colleagues, for your presentation. We love visitors.

102 Mr. Secretary, please.

103 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

104 Now we will proceed with items 1 through to 7 on the agenda. These applications are competing, and we will proceed as follows.

105 First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order, and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make their presentation.

106 Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

107 In Phase II the applicants will reappear in the same order as they presented their application to intervene against the other applicants. Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose, and questions from the Commission may follow each intervention.

108 In the third phase the other appearing intervenors listed in the agenda make their presentation to the Commission, and ten minutes are allowed for the presentation. Again, there may be questions from the Commission.

109 Phase IV provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions submitted to their application. Applicants appear in reverse order. Ten minutes are allowed for this reply, and again questions may follow from the Commission.

110 We will now hear the first application, which is an application by ARK Broadcasting Inc., on behalf of a company to be incorporated for a licence to operate a commercial FM (ethnic radio) station in Toronto.

111 The new station would operate on frequency 101.3 MHz (channel 267A) with an effective radiated power of 178 watts.

112 The applicant proposes to direct ethnic programming to a minimum of 20 cultural groups in a minimum of 18 different languages per broadcast week.

113 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Konstantin Selezen. I will ask him to introduce his colleagues.

114 Gentlemen, you have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

--- Pause

115 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

116 We will take a ten-minute break so that technical matters can be organized to the satisfaction of all.

--- Upon recessing at 1010 / Suspension à 1010

--- Upon resuming at 1025 / Reprise à 1025

117 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

118 I would remind other applicants who will require some technical connections to try them before sitting hours or during the lunch hour to ensure that we can proceed with our agenda.

119 Are you ready?

120 MR. SELEZEN: I apologize for this delay. The problem is that, for some reason, as soon as we plug in the cord for the presentation to do multimedia presentation, which is an integral part of our presentation, the computer turns off.

121 We will probably need another couple of minutes to turn off and on again.

122 Once again, I apologize.

--- Pause

123 THE CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, is there any way you can make your presentation and answer our questions without the technical equipment you have?

124 MR. SELEZEN: Yes. The visual aids that we submitted within those copies that we presented the Commission with, there are maps in black and white. So we can ultimately go without the multimedia presentation.

125 As I go with the presentation, you should probably look at the maps. Is that possible?

126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

127 MR. SELEZEN: Obviously, the audience would not see and probably would not understand what I am talking about. But we can go.

128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then go.

129 MR. SELEZEN: Thank you.

--- Pause

130 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed, I invite all of you to not hesitate to correct us if we don't pronounce names properly.

131 We obviously are going to have a number of technical problems, one of which appears to be that as soon as you put your microphone on, mine is cut off.

132 MR. SELEZEN: Yes.

133 THE CHAIRPERSON: So all of you will have to be careful. There are not only frequencies missing in Toronto.

134 We will have to be careful not to cut each other off. I don't know if the technical people can correct this and give us more control over the microphones.

135 Go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

136 MR. SELEZEN: Hello. My name is Konstantin Selezen. I am the Executive Director and the creative head of ARK Broadcasting.

137 I, once again, welcome you all to the concept of a new ethnic radio station designed to serve over 20 ethnic communities of Greater Toronto in more than 20 native languages of neighbouring peoples of Eastern Europe.

138 Let me introduce our panel: Mr. Roman Weig, the President, the CEO and the primary shareholder of ARK Broadcasting; Mr. Nikolai Solomichev, Vice-President and External Liaison; Mr. David Oakes, our research consultant; Mr. Jim Moltner, our advisor on technical matters.

139 We would like to start with a five-minute audiovisual presentation.

--- Video Presentation / Présentation vidéo

140 MR. SELEZEN: Thank you. Let me introduce our company.

141 ARK Broadcasting is a company to be incorporated upon the granting of the broadcasting licence. ARK is designed to provide various multimedia services to the Canadian public. The core of the company's business operation will be the production and distribution of ethnic radio programming.

142 ARK's parent company is Deluxe International Group, a conglomerate involved in a number of various industries. Deluxe International Group is also owned and controlled by its majority shareholder, Mr. Roman Weig.

143 Let me briefly highlight the main points of our application.

144 We propose to serve all Slavic communities of Greater Toronto and all Eastern European nations neighbouring with the Slavs under the umbrella of a new station.

145 We also propose to serve a number of ethnic groups of non-Slavic origin who fit with the Slavs and Eastern Europeans by their linguistic or geographical affinity.

146 In brief, we propose a unique concept of a unified ethnic radio station -- an ARK for Slavic nations and nations of Eastern Europe.

147 I will further elaborate as to why our concept takes this particular shape.

148 The idea of a new ethnic radio channel, which, in our view, shall provide a vial cultural forum to many prominent minorities and seek to discover new ethnic voices, has been nurtured over a period of time at a number of meetings and discussions.

149 We wanted to create something different. We wanted to move beyond the common "cherry picking" practice of the existing ethnic broadcasters when nations with totally different ethnic backgrounds are placed within the context of one station. We wanted to come up with the view of a unified radio station.

150 We started by having Mr. Oakes provide a clear and concise summary on the status quo of the existing broadcasting market in the GTA. The research yielded astonishing results. Well over half of ethnic communities who were identified as the primary recipients of this new service appeared to be underserved by the existing ethnic broadcasters.

151 Also, we discovered a number of ethnic communities of close relevance to our core targeted audience who were not served at all.

152 We chose our groups based on the following three principles: common ethnicity; linguistic affinity; geographical proximity.

153 Before demonstrating how these principles are applied to the context of a new station, I would like to provide some background information as to the homogeneity of our core group, the Slavs.

154 From at least the sixth century the expression "Slav" was the general designation of all Slavonic tribes situated within the area that later came to be Central and Eastern Europe. Wherever a Slavonic tribe rose to greater importance and founded an independent kingdom, the name of the tribe came to the front and pushed aside the general designation "Slav".

155 Among the successful tribes who brought entire kingdoms under their sway and gave it their names were Russians, Poles, Czechs, Croats and the Turanian tribe of Bulgars.

156 To show how deeply rooted Slavonic influences are in the soil of Eastern Europe, it can be pointed out that the old general name has been retained well into the 20th century by the Slovenes of Southern Austria, the Slovaks of Northern Hungary, the inhabitants of the Province of Slavonia located between Croatia and Hungary, by the Slovinci who resided in the vicinity of the North Sea, and earlier by the Slavs of Novgorod in the northern part of what came to be Russia, as well as by Slavs of Macedonia and Albania.

157 To comment further on Slavs homogeneity, it has to be noted that, although traditionally this ethnic entity is divided into Western, Eastern and Southern Slavs, the question as to the classification and number of the Slavonic peoples has always remained a complicated one.

158 The father of Slavonic philology, Joseph Dobrovsky, recognized nine major Slavonic peoples and languages. The great Russian scholar Sreznevsky held that there were eight, whereas Dmitry Florinsky, another famous Slavist, also enumerated nine.

159 Now, especially after a series of recent political breakups in Eastern Europe, 12 nations which speak more than 12 different languages and dialects can be perceived as being of distinctly Slavonic origin.

160 Then there are Eastern European countries of non-Slavic origin in different regions of which, especially in the bordering areas, the degree of Slavic influence varies to a great extent.

161 From a linguistic point of view, the following fundamental principles must be taken for guidance.

162 The Slavonic world in its entire extent presents ethnically a homogeneous whole. When the Slavs settled in the localities at present occupied by them, they were a mass of closely allied tribes with similar languages that changed slightly from tribe to tribe.

163 These differences were subtle initially, but grew over time through the historical and political development, the growth of literary languages, and various outside influences.

164 Thus, at the present time, we have a multifaceted and closely interconnected ethnic entity.

165 To restate the guiding principles of how we chose our groups, they are: common ethnicity; linguistic affinity, geographical proximity.

166 Now, we are into the multimedia presentation, the maps.

167 On the screen -- it's supposed to be on the screen, but it's not -- on the screen is the map which helps to refresh your memory of the geographical context in which the targeted groups are located.

168 The next one is the map which outlines all relevant countries of Eastern Europe, including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, parts of Russia, as well as other targeted nations -- used to be republics of the former Soviet Union -- now independent countries such as Georgia, Armenia and Kazakhstsan.

169 Map 3. This map contours our core ethnic groups, the Slavs. The division into Western, Eastern and Southern Slavs can be traced along the borders of Poland to the west, Macedonia and Bulgaria to the south, and Ukraine and Russia to the east.

170 Table 1. In this table we categorized a list of groups to be served, all ethnic groups by their origin and classified them as Slavic or non-Slavic with the exception of two Eastern European nations where the penetration of Slavic influence based on the background sources is larger than in other areas. In fact, similar influence, though to variable extent, could be traced throughout Eastern Europe.

171 In the fourth column of this table, we list all ethnic groups by their association to our three major principles.

172 Next is a chart: Ethnicity. This chart accounts for ethnic, linguistic and geographical principles and shows our potential audiences of Slavic and non-Slavic origins. You can clearly see that Slavic groups account for more than 50 per cent.

173 Another table: List of Groups to be Served. In this case you have to refer to the table that you saw previously because it's not on the screen on this.

174 The list of groups to be served by ARK outlines 20 ethnic groups which were listed in the application as our targeted groups. Our commitment to serve that many ethnic groups was based on the inclusion of these 20 groups into ARK's Preliminary Programming Schedule which was a part of our application.

175 In the application we committed to serve these 20 groups in 18 languages. This commitment was based on our earlier research which established that Serbo-Croatian, the most common Slavic language of peoples from the former Yugoslavia, has many features central to other Southern Slavic languages -- Croatian, Macedonian, Bosnian -- and, therefore, was thought of as a common language for this particular ethnic group.

176 As we were advised later by members of relevant ethnic groups, all languages of these nations now should be accounted for as separate languages. This fact was only recently brought to our attention.

177 It therefore brings the total of languages for 20 nations who we originally proposed to serve to 21 languages since we have plans to serve the Jewish community of Greater Toronto, a large part of which communicates in Russian, in both Hebrew and Yiddish.

178 Further, since filing our application, we discovered some additional ethnic groups which directly relate to our concept of Slavic Eastern European radio station.

179 Another table: Additional Groups. Bosnians -- a Slavic nation which was not originally included into our application;

180 Moldavians, a non-Slavic Eastern European nation, the former republic of the Soviet Union, which was exposed to heavy Slavic influence through the use of the Russian language as the official language of the former U.S.S.R.;

181 Albanians, a non-Slavic Eastern European nation;

182 Kazakhstan, also one of the former Soviet Republic, with a large percent of its population speaking and understanding Russian.

183 As this addition to the list of groups to be served shows, we can potentially serve 24 groups in 25 languages of Greater Toronto.

184 Let me comment further on the principle of linguistic overlapping, which is central to this undertaking.

185 Map 4 shows the principle of language overlapping.

186 I would like to show a map that contours areas in which such linguistic overlapping is most significant. It spots the former Czechoslovakia, now divided into two different countries, with two very similar and yet distinct official languages. It outlines nations of the former Yugoslavia which display similar tendencies across languages all southern Slavic independent countries now use, and it highlights territories of major Slavic nations such as Russia, Belorussia, Ukraine, as well as several former Soviet republics in which the percentage of linguistic overlapping with the Russian language, although it certainly varies, is significant. These are Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia and Moldova.

187 The next chart: Linguistic Overlapping/Nations of the Former Yugoslavia, illustrates this feature with a specific reference to nations of the former Yugoslavia.

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188 The next chart, Linguistic Overlapping: the Russian-Speaking Community of the Greater Toronto, again shows the principle of linguistic overlapping as it pertains to the Russian-speaking community of Greater Toronto.

189 This particular targeted group is of a major significance as it outnumbers all other communities and includes representatives from many Slavic and non-Slavic ethnic groups. I have to note that the number of ethnic groups, representatives of which can be viewed as a part of the Russian-speaking audience, is in fact larger than the number of groups included in this chart.

190 The linguistic overlapping has to be pointed out as a specific feature of our proposal for it would certainly increase opportunities for both the cross-cultural programming and the cross-cultural listenership at the new station.

191 Finally, I would like to bring to your attention a table which shows the main criteria used to classify all targeted groups as to the amount of services they receive.

192 The status of groups to be served as to the amount of service they receive. We took language groups, the amount of weekly hours programmed for each group by the current ethnic broadcasters, the population figures provided by Statistics Canada and arrived at the definition of status for each group, based on the amount of programming hours, this groups receives per each 10,000 of its population.

193 Highlighted, although it's not very clear on the black and white copies, but you still can see that highlighted, are groups that are served below average or not served at all.

194 Finally, chart 3 -- it's supposed to be slide 12. We subsequently arrived at a chart in which all figures used in the previous table transcribe into approximately 70 per cent, meaning that 70 per cent of all groups we propose to serve are now being served below average or unserved.

195 I would like to underline the fact that the total of our proposed unserved groups comes to nine groups.

196 I would also like to point out that the additional two groups, Moldavians and Kazahks, the total of unserved groups can potentially amount to almost 50 per cent of all ethnic groups served at the new station.

197 In conclusion, I would like to remind that we specifically responded to a call issued in Public Notice CRTC 2001-39 to provide FM radio programming services that:

"... clearly reflect the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA)".

198 And a subsequent recommendation on measures:

... to ensure that the residents of the GTA receive a range of radio services reflective of their languages and culture".

199 Issued by the Commission in Public Notice CRTC 2001-39-2.

200 I hope that the Commission would find our application thoroughly reflective of these conditions as we propose a new ethnic station that will serve more than 250,000 residents of the Greater Toronto Area of minority ethnic origin by broadcasting to 24 ethnic groups in 25 languages.

201 I will summarize by reflecting on several major points of the new undertaking.

202 Programming. Most of ARK's programming will consist of talk, news and music with a strong emphasis on information. It will be created by associate producers from local ethnic communities and reflect upon most current needs of these communities.

203 The new station will broadcast at least six hours a week of cross-cultural programming. Such programming will be hosted in two ethnic languages of similar origin and consist of one-hour call-in programs devoted to news, lifestyle issues, and entertainment. We also plan to broadcast a cross-cultural music show.

204 Business plan and programming format. We believe that the format proposed by ARK will be attractive to listeners and that adequate financing is available to implement the station and sustain it through the initial periods of its operation.

205 We have a solid and realistic business plan which is thoroughly thought out and backed by the demands in programming among the communities we propose to serve.

206 Reflection and feedback. In order to provide reflection on issues concerning operation and the programming of the new station, and to assist the new undertaking to be as responsive as possible to the needs of local ethnic communities, we will establish a local advisory board.

207 ARK will be a new editorial voice for the Toronto market, and as such will help to increase the variety of broadcasting services. We believe that as a new player we would offer a unique perspective on matters relevant to local communities we intend to serve.

208 We will make sure that 7 per cent of all musical selection aired each broadcast week during ethnic programming periods are Canadian selections and we would increase this commitment to 10 per cent by the third year of operation.

209 In order to ensure the development of new Canadian talent, we would allocate $30,000 annually for our Canadian Talent Development initiatives which will result in over $210,000 in direct expenditures over the seven-year licence term.

210 Our annual funding for CTD initiatives will be allocated as follows: $7,500 to Canadian Music Week; $1,500 towards scholarships at Kiwanis Music Festival and the Royal Conservatory of Music; $10,000 towards New Canadian Voices, an annual multilingual music and song competition; $11,000 as funds to eligible third parties and performing arts groups.

211 The new station will not impact significantly on existing ethnic broadcasters. Most of our proposed groups are currently served below average with almost 50 per cent of our proposed groups being unserved at all.

212 Diversity of Ethnic Broadcasting in the GTA. The new station will answer directly to the need for further enhancement of ethnic radio presence in the GTA and add to the cultural diversity of Ontario's capital by offering yet another vital media outlet for many prominent ethnic communities.

213 Unlike other ethnic broadcasters we would serve an audience that is homogenous based on their linguistic affinity and geographical proximity. In short, our goal is to facilitate further bridging of ethnic communities of Greater Toronto, the cross-cultures between borders.

214 We aim at helping to integrate representatives of these ethnic groups into Canadian society. We put our faith in diversity of ethnic voices which our proposal urges to facilitate.

215 Thank you.

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216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Selezen and good morning to you and to your colleagues.

217 I will first ask you some questions about the demand and your choice of languages and groups to be served.

218 You state that generally you have attempted in your proposal to provide service to underserved groups or groups that are below average in service in the GTA.

219 The second-largest number of hours, which is only one hour behind Russian, 18 hours, is to be devoted to people of Polish heritage. It amounts to about 14.3 per cent of your programming, about 18 hours.

220 You yourself have identified in the current service available in Toronto 56 hours of programming in Polish in an appendix to your Schedule 21: 25 hours on CJMR, 15 on CHIN-FM and 15 of CHWO. That is also indicated, to a certain extent, in the slides that you provided this morning, Polish as above average.

221 I am curious as to how Polish was chosen as your second-largest number of hours, particularly in light of what I understand to be an explanation that Russian, which is only 19 hours, is going to be in fact available to many of the other groups over and above what they receive in their own language because of the dominance of Russian during the Soviet Republic years.

222 I am puzzled about your choice of Polish as the second-largest group.

223 MR. SELEZEN: First of all, this is a preliminary schedule and we were trying to make the schedule as diverse as we could. At the point where one schedule was created, those four groups that we mentioned in the presentation were not available, so it was submitted as such.

224 Second, we are well aware of the fact that the Polish audience is well served in Toronto. However, we made our choice based on the fact that it is a very strong community, a community that deserves further facilitation of choices.

225 However, your note is I think entirely plausible in the light of what we propose. We thought about it many times. As a matter of fact we were thinking of allocating the prime time during the afternoon drive period especially or during the periods after the Russian morning show and breaking it up for other ethnic groups that were previously unidentified in our application, for example, or by switching to a lesser number of hours for the Polish community since it seems to be a well-served community by dividing this particular time slot between Ukrainian programming and programming of other communities that might benefit from tuning in to the Russian-language program or a cross-cultural program which would be provided to somewhat similar languages of similar ethnic origin.

226 I hope that answers your question.

227 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting then that the afternoon drive time, 4:00 to 6:00, which I see on your proposed program schedule, would not be devoted to Polish programming?

228 MR. SELEZEN: We are discussing this question very thoroughly. It might be switched to an hour of Ukrainian programming, or an hour and a half of Ukrainian programming, and then another half an hour allocated for a smaller community, for example, people of Kazakhstan or Moldavians, who were not originally included in our preliminary programm ing schedule to facilitate the needs of these smaller communities.

229 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Oakes, I have a question for you.

230 Presumably the research you did was used to assess the viability of the proposal. My understanding is that 309 people were interviewed?

231 MR. OAKES: Correct.

232 THE CHAIRPERSON: You state on page 1 of your research that they were primarily made up of the groups that you are proposing to serve, including Poles. Then if I look further into your research at page 19, we find that only 4.2, or however one measures 4.2, interviewees had Polish as a mother tongue, and only 5.2 were of Polish ethnic origin, compared, let's say, to as many as over 53 per cent of Russian mother tongue and 34 per cent of Russian ethnic origin.

233 It is difficult to see how you arrived at choosing the second language as Polish.

234 MR. OAKES: If I could answer that. We initially came up with the 20 groups and then went out and did a survey. Polish is such a big part of the Slavic community that we felt that without question it had to be included in that it was overserved by our own measure of being overserved.

235 There are approximately 80,000 Poles that speak Polish in Toronto. It is one of the largest groups. We thought that if we provided hours of listening that didn't coincide with Polish broadcasting on the other current ethnic stations, we would be providing a service to the community.

236 Based on that, I would say we kept the Polish group in. Without them, you have a glaring weakness in saying that you are a Slavic station.

237 I used a number of documents to find out the current hours of broadcasting for Polish. It is like hitting a moving target. It changes periodically. It was our expressed intention that we would slot the hours of programming for Polish in a slot that would not bother anybody else.

238 With reference to the survey, yes, you are correct. We did it off a list, and we only got 4.2 per cent of the survey that spoke Polish.

239 I didn't want to weight this. I didn't want to take 4.2 per cent and blow that up to what they should be, based on 80,000 people. They would be maybe 40 per cent of the survey. In that way, it definitely underrepresents the Polish.

240 However, even looking at the Polish responses, when we asked would you listen to a new station that would broadcast in your mother tongue, they said yes. Probably close to 90 per cent of the Poles we interviewed said that.

241 So even though it is a small group, they still have quite a high demand for more hours tuned of Polish programming.

242 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Oakes, at page 20 of your research, where you show the stations that the interviewees were asked to identify that they listened to, despite CJMR offering 24 hours of broadcasting in Polish, that station doesn't appear in that table at all.

243 So even the few Poles you interviewed didn't listen to the Polish programming available already in the GTA.

244 MR. OAKES: Well, they are only 4.2 per cent of them, so they are not going to have a huge voice in determining which stations pop up here.

245 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I conclude that not one person identified, for example CJMR, as a station that they listen to. I focus on CJMR because it has 24 hours of Polish programming as opposed to CHIN-FM with 15 and CHOU at 15.

246 What I'm looking at is, I understand, and Mr. Selezen certainly explained to us how this is going to be a Slavic and Slavic-related station, but you also state that you have attempted to focus on the underserved routes and that's why I'm not asking how you arrived at this conclusion. You do identify some Poles in slides as above average, receiving above average service.

This is particularly interesting in light of the fact that to propose 19 hours in Russian. When I try to combine that with the fact that you suggest that many of the other groups that you will serve also will benefit from Russian, perhaps what you can tell me is when you say that some of the other groups also understand Russian, how many of these other groups would benefit?

247 You identify, I think, Ukrainians, Belarussians. Would Poles also understand Russian? Which other groups would also understand Russian and Ukrainian? Does that mean that I should take the hours directed to Ukrainian, 14 hours for example, and say these people will actually get 14 hours plus 19 hours of programming because they will listen to the Ukrainian and the Russian? And can I say that for the Poles?

248 You mentioned Belarussians and one other group. I think the Jewish group would understand Russian. So is that how we are supposed to look at this?

249 MR. SELEZEN: Can I answer this question?

250 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, of course.

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251 MR. SELEZEN: Thank you.

252 There are a number of groups -- I wouldn't comment on the percentage, but interviews that we conducted with the communities show that for example -- and, as a matter of fact, in our intervention letters, positive intervention letters, we have a letter from the Russian Jewish community that indicates that almost two thirds of the Jewish population of the Greater Toronto, because it is based on the fact that a stream of immigrants were coming to Toronto via Israel from the former Soviet Union.

253 As a matter of fact, I would say 75 per cent of these people speak Russian. As a matter of fact, Mr. Weig -- I can point out Mr. Weig is one of them, because Mr. Weig is of Jewish Ukrainian origin for example.

254 I speak three Slavic languages. I speak Polish, Ukrainian and Russian. I consider myself a part of both the Ukrainian and Russian communities. My parents were Russian and Ukrainian and I speak both languages fluently and I understand a third Slavic language and speak a third Slavic language. I certainly would understand Serbian or Bulgarian. I do, as a matter of fact.

255 Again, the Polish community, the Bulgarian community, the Serbian community and other communities of countries of the former Yugoslavia, of countries of the so-called Warsaw Block which was dismantled with the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, I would say perhaps up to a good 10 per cent or 15 per cent of the population of all these former allies of the former Soviet Union would understand Russian and therefore we have a huge possibility of them, providing that the service is interesting for them, tuning into the station or a program which is broadcast in Russian.

256 In the audience there is a representative from a Moldavian community. As a matter of fact, Irena Ritchie is the producer of Moldavian TV, and they broadcast in Russian. Kazakhstan, again a former republic of the former Soviet Union, also a huge number, a huge percentage of its population speaks Russian.

257 Belarussians would also, probably a good 95 per cent -- to I would say even more than that -- would understand Russian and perhaps 75 per cent to 90 per cent of the population of Belarussia would speak Russian. So we see how this principle of language overlapping works.

258 Again, as to Georgians, for example, we contacted the Georgian community and they do half of, well over half. The Georgian community also understands and speaks Russian. The Armenian community has a smaller percentage of Russian-speaking and Russian understanding people, but we certainly do have members of the community speaking and understanding both languages.

259 Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians. Again, we couldn't account for certain percentages, of course, because it requires a huge demographic survey and research. We couldn't afford, time-wise, to do it, but we do know that members of these communities also speak and understand Russian.

260 So to conclude on your point of not seeing why or how reasonable it would be to provide so many hours of Polish programming, how the new station would benefit from it, I would certainly agree. But I strongly urge the Commission to take our submission as the preliminary schedule and based on the fact that we discovered four other groups that are of direct relevance to the communities that we are trying to serve and, as a matter of fact, two of these communities, Moldavians and Kazahks, would speak and understand Russian and basically out of these four groups it would account to almost -- not almost, 50 per cent of these additional groups that would benefit from more programming in their own language as well as in the Russian language or cross-cultural programming in both languages.

261 It is interesting the Kazahk community for example has the Internet site in Russian or an appeal that we read in the paper was posted in the Russian paper. So it sort of comments also on how close and how well understood the language is.

262 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Selezen, would that not perhaps address that there should be more than 19 hours of Russian?

263 MR. SELEZEN: As I said, diversity, we felt that the diversity was the key to our station and without those additional four groups, by having 20 groups, we certainly were trying to allocate a reasonable amount of hours to each group, also foreseeing difficulties for programming for smaller groups. That is why our preliminary scheduled, although I think it is a reasonable schedule, has to be reworked in terms of the additional groups that we have found and in terms of suggestions that you are bringing up to everybody's attention.

264 As a matter of fact, that was the theme, the rhetoric so to speak of our recent conversations and our recent ponderings as to how we can benefit more from providing either more hours in Russian, programming more hours in Russian and programming, of course, more hours in those languages that we mistakenly or unwillingly omitted.

265 MR. OAKES: If I could just add a little bit to that, since I was part of the process, we didn't want to make it a Russian station and we didn't want to have so little Russian on it that it would marginalize Russians, which are a very pivotal group anyway.

266 So there is a balancing act to play on this and one of the ways of dealing with that balancing act is putting in Russian at pivotal points of the broadcast day, namely morning drive. That was -- I mean, usually people get up in the morning and orient themselves by radio or television news, information, whatever, and from that standpoint those Russian hours in the morning are going to be way more pivotal than they look. It's not just there is one hour there. It's they will get a much bigger audience share simply because it's morning drive.

267 THE CHAIRPERSON: One of the things that, of course, we examine and that you, like other applicants, have addressed is the potential impact on the services that already exist as opposed to enlarging the number of groups served. You say in Schedule 13 at page 3, and I read from it:

"The impact of the new ethnic FM will have on existing stations depends on..." (As read)

268 And one of the criteria is:

"...the duplication of language groups covered". (As read)

269 Would you conclude from that that there would be, for example, more impact on CJMR by virtue of the fact that they rely on -- they offer 24 hours of programming in Polish than on any other station that offers less or none?

270 MR. SELEZEN: I will try to answer this question and perhaps Mr. Oakes can help me further. It is our desire to not unduly impact on any of the ethnic broadcasters of Toronto and, as a matter of fact, we would do everything not to conflict with the existing schedules.

271 As we found out, perhaps, and I totally agree with your point on that issue, that perhaps a new station would benefit from sharing more hours of ethnic programming to smaller groups with hours of Russian program, so on and so forth. Perhaps we should reduce our Polish hours.

272 Another point that I forgot to make was that we essentially thought of enriching the community with not only more choice in terms of the hours of programming, but also choice in terms of how programs would be reduced and distributed.

273 For example, we plan to produce a cross-cultural music show which would be of both Polish and Ukrainian origin in which two hosts or DJs would distribute musical numbers in both languages and comment in those languages. Again, Polish and Ukrainian certainly answer to the principle of linguistic overlapping that we use throughout.

274 If Mr. Oakes has further comments.

275 MR. OAKES: Yes. If you are looking at defining what the impact would be, I guess there are two impacts. One is just the hours tuned on the air. If you go up against somebody, another ethnic station, you may take audience away from them. The other thing is sales. Now, if we look at audience, it's our intention, and we will live by it, that we will not go up against other existing ethnic broadcasters. We don't want to take their audience. We want to develop our own.

276 From that standpoint, if we don't broadcast simultaneously with other let's say Polish services, then I don't expect that we are going to be taking any audience away from them. Would we take away any -- by the way when you asked, just about every community would they like more hours of broadcasting? Obviously the answer is yes and they feel they can use them. So we feel that we are at least fulfilling a need and hopefully, if we can work the scheduling out, we won't be competing for audience.

277 On the sales front, that's almost impossible right now. From what we have seen with most of these groups, there are a lot of sales still left out there and a new station would attract new sales from these groups. There is a lot of sales still left out there and a new station would attract new sales from these groups.

278 Once again, it's not our intention to go head to head and compete against ethnic stations. There is nothing to be won in that battle by us. So we have no intention of impacting on them.

279 On the sales front, I would say that probably the biggest group of contention is Polish and from a sales standpoint their sales are spread around a number of radio stations. So if we do take sales away, we are not going to take very much and, quite frankly, looking at the way we are going to go about sales and develop new clients, I don't think we are going to impact on these people at all for sales. So I don't see a big impact.

280 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since it would appear that there were no Hungarians, or people of Hungarian heritage in your group of interviewees, what was the criterion for choosing them as the third linguistic group in the level of importance?

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281 MR. SELEZEN: The choice was the population, the size of the population of the Hungarian community, in this case, and of course the proximity, the geographical proximity to all other groups.

282 Hungarians, as I indicated and as it is seen through the background research that was done on Slavs, is a non-Slavic community which, we think, has a tremendous Slavic influence by the fact that it has been located in between the Southern Slavs and the Eastern-Western Slavs and, of course, those influences are very traceable, especially in the bordering areas.

283 However, we thought that the Hungarian community, which is underserved by the current programming, would benefit from having more hours according to the size of the population and our station as well.

284 MR. OAKES: Currently the Hungarians are only getting two hours a week of programming. They have about 25,000 of Hungarians that speak Hungarian. So they are quite underserved. They are in the middle of Slavic and Eastern European countries that we were interested in so therefore we chose them.

285 MR. SELEZEN: I can also further comment on the viability of the survey and the station by saying that when we conducted the research we primarily targeted -- we couldn't obviously target all the communities.

286 However, if we took into account your suggestions and perhaps increased hours of Russian programming and decreased Polish programming, we would also benefit because the Russian-speaking community of Greater Toronto is a very stable and financially-sound community which has a great interest in new programming as our survey indicates. Therefore, it would certainly balance all our needs.

287 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Selezen, we don't really generally suggest. We are just trying to clarify or to better understand the basis of your proposal. So our questions should not generally be read as a suggestion that something else should be done. It's more a matter of understanding where you are going.

288 In the deficiency questions you were asked whether you would accept as a condition of licence at question 7(a) what was at the time the number of groups that you were prepared to be bound to serve. At question 7(a), which would have been a response to the Commission's letter, you indicate that, yes, you would be prepared to accept as a condition of licence 20 multicultural groups and 18 languages. Today, you have that to 24 groups, multicultural groups, and 25 languages.

289 To make things a little more complicated, in your response to question 7(a) you asked for a variance of four ethnic groups and four languages.

290 So a condition of licence is an exact minimum in this case. So I would like to understand what the variance is all about, and how you then understand it in the context of this addition of groups and languages.

291 What I want to know is what are the minimums you are prepared to accept as a condition of licence and is the variance that you would change the languages offered or that you would offer four fewer without breaching the condition of licence?

292 So please, in the context of something that has to be exact to work, what is your commitment in the minimum groups and minimum languages?

293 MR. SELEZEN: We propose 20 groups in 18 languages and, as I indicated, our proposition for 18 languages was based on the fact that simply our earlier research wasn't complete enough and it showed that we the took Serbo-Croatian language as the primary language to serve several communities.

294 As we found out later, as a matter of fact, Bosnians, Macedonians, Serbians and Croatians can be served in different languages and since we are proposed to serve the Jewish community of Toronto which in part belongs to the Russian-speaking community, and also we can serve it in both languages, Yiddish and Hebrew, the proper total would be not 18 but 21.

295 Our commitment therefore is to serve, even with the additional four groups that we found, our commitment would be to serve 20 groups in 21 languages simply because as a new player we feel that it would allow us a certain flexibility in programming and we presume that our programming, final programming schedule, would depend upon our ability to find local associated producers to actually produce programs in 18 languages.

296 Therefore, we ask for variance simply because we thought that we might not be able to find associate producers and therefore committed to 20 groups and 18 languages. We would like to be homogenous with the 24 groups and 25 languages, as were identified. Now, I think it would be no problem to serve 20 communities in 21 languages and have four additional groups to sort of play with.

297 That would be our commitment.

298 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are no longer asking for flexibility. These four other groups, what provides --

299 MR. SELEZEN: They would feel our need for the flexibility. We potentially can serve 24 groups in 25 languages. We don't want to -- how should I put it? We certainly have to have a certain flexibility as a new player, I suppose.

300 THE CHAIRPERSON: But the condition of licence you are prepared to accept is a minimum of 20 and 21.

301 MR. SELEZEN: That is exact and 21 as the number of languages instead of 18.

302 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have had a long discussion about what you think I may be suggesting or what you yourselves are suggesting or finding out and also Mr. Oakes has been quite clear about the desire to have his own audience rather than trying to compete --

303 It leads inevitably to the question of what you propose to commit to because of this possible shift.

304 At the moment, the Commission has licensed ethnic radio services with minimum languages and minimum groups to be served, but it has not identified what they are.

305 As a new player, but certainly looking at the composition of the GTA -- and you seem to have gone through a fair amount of work to see who is above average, below average or not served at all -- do you think that it would be wise for us -- now you make a suggestion -- to require that by condition of licence that you offer a minimum of your broadcast services to let's say the five largest groups you have suggested, at a minimum number of hours? Let's say 50 per cent of all your ethnic programming would have to be in Russian, Polish, Ukrainian and Hungarian.

306 Is that something that as a new entrant you think would be helpful to you and to us in deciding which application is more likely to fill voids?

307 You may want to talk about this amongst yourselves and come back at reply stage. It is not something the Commission has done to date, but the conversation we had this morning certainly begs the question of should you be bound by the largest group and on a weekly basis, that your programming be directed in these languages.

308 You may prefer to wait until reply to come back to us with what you think about that proposition.

309 MR. OAKES: Well, it is an intriguing proposition. I would say, on behalf of my client, that our intent is to provide the most hours tuned to the biggest groups, but we are going to have to be careful here. If this becomes a condition of licence or if one of the things you request we do is to lock in hours in a schedule for certain groups, we are getting pinned down so badly that if there are any changes in the market it might cause some severe problems for us.

310 THE CHAIRPERSON: The proposition would not be 19 hours of Russian and 14 -- it would be that 50 per cent of the programming would be directed to the five top or the groups that you have offered the most hours for, not exactly 19. It could be --

311 MR. OAKES: Sure, within the 50 per cent.

312 THE CHAIRPERSON: Within the 50 per cent you would have that flexibility. But if we keep you a Slavic station, for example, which is what you are proposing to us --

313 MR. OAKES: Correct.

314 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe as a consultant you can speak to your client, and we can hear from him at reply.

315 MR. OAKES: I think that would be best. Thank you.

316 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we go to more pointed programming questions, you have also accepted that your programming would be 90 per cent ethnic, and it would be 90 per cent third language.

317 You are prepared to accept that as a condition of licence.

318 MR. SELEZEN: Yes.

319 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I was talking about was simply taking your major languages and possibly ensuring that 50 per cent of your programming be from those languages.

320 With respect to programming, I would like to clarify certain things about your spoken word programming.

321 In what is your Schedule 21, at page 5, you indicate that most of the programs will be produced locally with little or no foreign content. Although there is a commitment to the amount of spoken word programming, there is not much detail as to what percentage of that will be locally produced and what will be foreign produced.

322 MR. SELEZEN: I would say 80 to 85 per cent of all spoken word programming will be produced at the station. We will certainly be taking some feeds in order to enhance the programming schedule. Primarily, we would be producing the spoken word programming which would be directed to local communities and produced by associate producers of these communities produced locally.

323 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Canadian programming that would not be locally produced, what would the sources be? Would it be news?

324 MR. SELEZEN: It would be news and some cultural programming that we intend to incorporate within the programming schedule.

325 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me an example?

326 MR. SELEZEN: For example, there is a station which is called Peoples Wave broadcasting to a million people in the Tristate New York. As a matter of fact, we were in discussions as regards to having a feed from them for perhaps a little bit of programming in the Russian language to enhance our Russian-speaking programming part.

327 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the foreign sources and the type of foreign programming?

328 MR. SELEZEN: Having committed to having at least 7 per cent of musical selections as being of Canadian content, we certainly do expect to take some feeds as to the musical material in languages of communities and of interest to communities we intend to serve.

329 That would probably account for another feed. We can certainly give examples; for example, Russian radio or some other national radio station that we would be taking sources for our musical material.

330 THE CHAIRPERSON: In Schedule 17, which is attached to one of your deficiency responses, you stated that most programming would be locally oriented and created by associate producers.

331 MR. SELEZEN: Yes.

332 THE CHAIRPERSON: We would like to understand a little more how you will handle this.

333 We commonly use and the industry uses brokerage programming, and associate producers can be hired or used in a different way. What is your relationship exactly or what will it be with producers?

334 By "brokerage", we understand the purchase of a block of time which then the producer is totally responsible for filling and also for the advertising in it to recoup, hopefully, the sum that he has paid for the block.

335 What is your intention with associate producers?

336 MR. SELEZEN: We, as a matter of fact, thought of this particular scheme of brokering time to local producers as perhaps the most acceptable scheme for us. Therefore, I think all our local programming will be produced by producers from the communities.

337 That is what we intend to do. We intend to broker our time to local producers.

338 As to having feedback from the communities and feeding information or programs to the community, that would be our final decision to supervise programs and to approve the program as it goes on the air.

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339 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you thought of what minimum local programming you would be prepared to commit to in your spoken word programming?

340 MR. SELEZEN: As I said --

341 THE CHAIRPERSON: We discussed earlier that there would be foreign and non-local Canadian. What would be the minimum of that percentage of spoken word programming that you would be comfortable to commit to as local?

342 MR. SELEZEN: I think we would be comfortable with any number up to 90 per cent of the local programming.

343 Mr. Oakes has a comment.

344 MR. OAKES: No.

--- Pause

345 MR. SELEZEN: Can I clarify whether it pertains to local programming directed to local communities of Toronto or local programming directed to other Canadian communities across Canada?

346 THE CHAIRPERSON: I suspect they will all be directed to Toronto, because I don't think the frequency you applied for will get you very much farther.

347 I am trying to get a sense of whether your 35 per cent of programming of spoken word -- how much of that will be Canadian and how much of it will be ethnic, considering your 90/90 proposition, to get a sense of the manner in which you will actually reflect or serve the ethnic communities you are targeting. The extent to which your spoken word programming is local is one of the indices, of course, of whether you are serving the ethnic population of the GTA.

348 What I am trying to get at is a little more understanding of what your spoken word programming will be like; how much of it will be local, how much of it will be in third language, and will it be directed to all the communities.

349 How will it be integrated into your program schedule?

350 MR. SELEZEN: As indicated, 90 per cent of all programming would be local programming. Within the spoken word category, which is the 35 per cent that you speak of --

351 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. There will still be a lot of music, because we are talking about 35 per cent spoken word.

352 I am looking at the spoken word programming. Where is it going to be? What is it going to do?

353 We are now talking about producers in various languages. They will be playing a lot of music, as well, but what will be the spoken word programming, which is where to a large extent some of the needs of the ethnic communities will be met, things that matter to them in this community.

354 MR. SELEZEN: You are referring to the percentage within the 35 per cent of the spoken word.

355 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where will it be? How will it be integrated into the other component, which is music?

356 How will your producers do that? Have you contacted some? Is it going to be difficult to find some in all of the communities?

357 What will be the staff component, your fulltime staff component?

358 MR. SELEZEN: Our fulltime staff would be executive producer, general manager and then associate producers working for each of the programs for each ethnic community and in each language that we plan to have put in the context of the station.

359 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean you will have a fulltime staff member for each group?

360 MR. SELEZEN: No, no. It is only the executive producer and the general manager that would be a part of our fulltime staff. Local associate producers would not be part of our fulltime staff. They would be hired on the basis of brokering time.

361 I will get back to the question about spoken word programming and again trying to understand.

362 I would say we would feel comfortable with 90 per cent of the programming within the spoken word category produced by local producers. Having said that, we would taking some feeds as to the culturally oriented programs that would be broadcast especially during the periods over Saturday and Sunday. So I would say, yes, 90 per cent of all of that would be locally produced and oriented, of course, to local communities.

363 Programs that we are planning to have that would be culturally oriented or lifestyle oriented, for example, can enlighten issues that are relevant to this particular ethnic community on a larger scale so to speak. So it doesn't have to be very locally oriented, although it might reflect on local community and we would most certainly do our best in terms of serving the local needs, because we indicated that most of our programming would be local programming.

364 Of course, we heavily rely on our ability to seek associate producers to train them and maintain this relationship, a productive relationship, a creative relationship with them.

--- Pause

365 THE CHAIRPERSON: I notice that you are proposing some open-line programs. You have already thought this through and filed guidelines. Are you aware also of the CRTC document on open-line programming?

366 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, we are.

367 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware as well that there is a code for brokerage prepared by the CAB and CAEB in 1985 which the Commission mentioned in its ethnic policy and I guess it is still relevant.

368 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, we are.

369 THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you see as your executive producer's responsibility beyond these codes in ensuring that those blocks of programming, and particularly an open line that is more vulnerable to difficulties, what will the relationship be to ensure that there are no difficulties brought upon by the programming that is broadcast?

370 MR. SELEZEN: With regards to the executive producer's responsibility for the open-line programming, I would say they indicated before it would be -- the executive producer who would be a part of our full staff would be totally responsible for all open-line programming going on the air and, of course, he would be responsible for training associate producers and making sure that a discussion before the acceptance into the programming within the context of the station, there should be a discussion with a senior staff member or general manager of the station or, as a matter of fact, with the executive producer as to the full understanding of the associate producer, this particular associate producer as to his or her awareness of all the codes that CRTC maintains.

371 In particular I would like also to note on our advisory board, the advisory board is also designed in a way to enhance this responsibility of the executive producer and make sure that everything is going smoothly on the air without unnecessary misunderstandings.

372 And, of course, all technical measures would be in place to ensure that open-line programming corresponds to the CRTC requirements as to the open-line programming at the station.

373 THE CHAIRPERSON: I note that in your guide, if I recall, you pledge to contractually bind associate producers to abiding by certain requirements.

374 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, we did.

375 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because, of course, you will then be responsible for what is broadcast.

376 MR. SELEZEN: Yes.

377 THE CHAIRPERSON: The current requirement for music, for Canadian content, the percentage of Canadian content of music played during ethnic periods is 7 per cent. There are two different positions taken in your application. In Schedule 21 at page 5 you say that you raise that to 10 per cent Cancon. You may have said that again this morning.

378 But if I look at your deficiency response, your response to question 7(d) and I read:

"We kindly ask the CRTC to allow us to accept a condition of license of a minimum requirement of 7 per cent of music broadcast during ethnic programming periods as set out in the regulations, but we pledge to increase the percentage of Canadian music selections broadcast through the ethnic programming period to 10 per cent over the period of three years." (As read)

379 There is a bit of a conflict there. Are you bound by that 10 per cent from year one or is it only by year three?

380 MR. SELEZEN: Throughout out previous discussions as to how we can benefit from having more of Canadian content, as much as we can, as a matter of fact, at the station -- at a new station. We would like to be flexible as to when our 10 per cent is going to kick in. We certainly would like to commit to 10 per cent from the very beginning, although we felt that by committing to 7 per cent again we wouldn't have problems with the musical programming for especially smaller ethnic nations that we are trying to serve.

381 Since we filed this response with the CRTC, though, we had a very healthy response from the community, and especially from the musical part of, for example, the Russian-speaking community. Several music festivals have happened in the community and we talked to a number of ethnic musical producers and we again would like to restate that we would initially commit to the minimum requirement of 7 per cent and then we can commit to raise our percentage to 10 per cent by the third year of operation, which would allow us to create a sufficient music library and to seek and nurture talent and to make musical recordings, and so on and so forth.

382 THE CHAIRPERSON: So then it is 7 per cent in the first three years, beginning in year four it is 10 per cent.

383 MR. SELEZEN: Yes.

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384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Presumably you will be branching out towards that goal.

385 What will be the types and the genres of music? Because it will be a music-driven service. It will be 35 per cent spoken word.

386 MR. SELEZEN: We would have a mix of ethnic musical selections of different genres. I think most of our music programming would be musical programming directed at younger audiences of ethnic groups that we would be trying to serve.

387 A large part of the musical programming, I suppose, would be this so-called traditional programming, traditional music or folk music of nations that we would be trying to program. We would try to accommodate as many genres, of course according to our Canadian content commitments and out other commitments, as many genres as we can. At this point I think I am not prepared to speak to an exact percentage of what musical genre would be the primary genre on our station.

388 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you say it is going to be traditional.

389 MR. SELEZEN: I say a part of the music that we are going to be broadcasting is going to be traditional folk music and a part of it is going to be pop and rock music produced within communities and taken from other sources. However, as to the exact percentage, we are not sure about the exact percentage of how it would be divided between those two genres for example.

390 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have also put in your schedule some related programming. I can find three hours of Polish, two hours of Russian in the program schedule. If you look at the Schedule 17 that you appended to your first deficiency response to the number of questions, towards the end of that, the very last paragraph actually, of Schedule 17, speaks to:

"...the weekend spoken word programming section that would include broadcasting commentaries to Catholic mass on Saturdays and as well as other programs devoted to religion and spirituality or related topics and concerns." (As read)

391 Are you aware of how the Commission has defined religion and its religious policies? Have you ever looked at that?

392 All of that to try to have a few questions about how much religious programming you will have. If you are not aware, it is basically more than just religious services. The policy is Public Notice 93-78 and it speaks to:

"...programming with religious themes, including programs that examine or expound religious practices and beliefs or present a religious ceremony, service or other similar event." (As read)

393 And it talks of:

"... anything directly relating to or inspired by or arising from an individual relationship, including related moral or ethical issues." (As read)

394 So just to give you an idea that it goes beyond just that, how much religious programming would you say will be on your schedule over and above those clearly religious hours?

395 MR. SELEZEN: We are listed on Saturdays and Sundays. Sundays I think it was a total of five or six hours of religious programming that were listed in our preliminary programming schedule. I don't have it here at the moment. If you will give me a second I will pull it up.

396 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is five hours.

397 MR. SELEZEN: Five hours, yes.

398 Yes, we are aware of all the policies that the CRTC has.

399 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see it on Sunday on your schedule. I may have made a mistake by saying Saturday.

400 MR. SELEZEN: Right. Of course we are aware of policies that the CRTC has for religious programming. I will just give you an example.

401 For example, within the Slavic community mass is usually broadcast between the hours of 9:00 and 1:00 for pretty much all Slavic communities who are orthodox.

402 Within this religious -- or within this broadcast of the service, half an hour of programming. It would be a spoken word programming within the context of religious programming that we have for Saturdays and Sundays.

403 Now, since we would have -- or we presume we would have various communities of various beliefs, for example Bosnians are Moslem Slavs and of course we would try to accommodate that as well. It is not in our preliminary programming schedule since Bosnians were one of the groups that was discovered later.

404 THE CHAIRPERSON: Within this broad definition that I have just outlined to you, what would be the maximum number of hours devoted to what we would identify or characterize as religious programming?

405 MR. SELEZEN: I think it would be --

406 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not that we want to discourage this. We just want to know.

407 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, I understand. It's going to be five --

408 THE CHAIRPERSON: And even within these, they will not consist only of the broadcast of the service. You say you understand the religious policy. What are its main tenets according to you? This is not a test.

409 What is it that the Commission worries about in religious programming?

410 MR. SELEZEN: I suppose that all the religious interests of the communities will be represented adequately and balanced and there is no discrimination based on religious belief, of course, in place.

411 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, of course, the Commission has other requirements with regard to balance on any issue, over time at least, and it becomes a little more difficult when one has religious programming to ensure that issues are treated in a balanced way. So you are quite aware of --

412 MR. SELEZEN: Certainly and --

413 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- of those concerns.

414 MR. SELEZEN: And I would like to comment further on this question as we initially proposed three hours -- or two hours or three hours, again I don't remember exactly -- for the Polish programming. I suppose it can be shared with other communities, for example Bosnians, because as I said Bosnians were included into all our schedules and I think we would benefit from actually sharing that particular time spot with some other ethnic groups, Southern Slavs or Eastern Slavs or Western Slavs.

415 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions about your advisory board which you talk about in your Schedule 21 at page 8.

416 You suggest five members of which you named two and it would be eventually eight by year three, according to the last deficiency response at question 5.

417 If I understand you would have five members at the beginning, of which two are already named, and then those would be the two independents and then you would have the CEO, the Executive Producer and the Program Director. At year three you would add members so that you have an eight-member advisory board.

418 Why is your advisory board small at the beginning and getting larger when, in fact, I would have thought you would need more independent advice at the beginning while you are developing your relationship with producers, with your audiences, with the community?

419 MR. SELEZEN: After we submitted our proposal, we tried to rewords our thoughts about the advisory board and we felt that it would be to our benefit to include more members, especially from the local communities, especially, of course, associate producers that are going to be serving local communities at the station.

420 I think we thought of the advisory board as a part of our governing body at first. Now we see that perhaps we can get more reflection to local communities to the advisory board by having more associate producers on our advisory board.

421 We chose five initial members for the advisory board simply because these people were at our disposal for discussions. In particular we chose those few people that we initially proposed for their relevance to the communities that we are trying to serve, the larger Slavic communities and non-Slavic communities that we are trying to serve.

422 But as I said, then we were settled on the number seven or eight for our advisory board later on, but as a matter of fact, I suppose it would become then than that number as we would try to accommodate more associate producers and include them in the body of our advisory board.

423 THE CHAIRPERSON: At the moment we have, we were told, the CEO, Executive Producer, Program Director and two independents of which one is not a Canadian. I have read the application. I personally make no comments about his expertise, his knowledge, et cetera. But the question was raised, and I would like to hear from you more about how this person's ability would fare in discharging some of the functions of the advisory board considering you may have just two independents at the beginning, of which one would be a non-Canadian.

424 In your application in page 8 of Schedule 21, two of the functions of the board would be to evaluate program content in order to ensure that the needs of the communities are best served, and a second one of a number of them is to ensure that all religious and multicultural organizations get the appropriate amounts of public exposure.

425 I am still puzzled about how not only a non-Toronto resident, but a non-Canadian, would be able to do this evaluation for you as one of two independent members speaking to the CEO of the company, its Executive Producer and its Program Director.

426 MR. SELEZEN: As to the non-Canadian member of our advisory board, Valery Weinberg, we felt that his expertise -- first of all, he is the Editor-in-Chief of the new Russian Word, the oldest ethnic paper published in North America since 1910. He also is the Director for People's Wave Radio which is broadcasting in Russian for peoples of different ethnic origins, Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, and so on and so forth.

427 On a number of occasions, he is particularly associated with the Jewish community, Jewish-Russian community of Greater Toronto and on a number of occasions has spoken on different issues at meetings and he is not therefore a stranger to the Jewish-Russian-speaking community of Toronto.

428 As I said, we wanted to include Valery Weinberg into the body of our advisory board simply because of his expertise on matters relevant to the Russian-speaking community in North America.

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429 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what is the bottom line as to the ties of your advisory board or the number of independent members right from the implementation of the station?

430 MR. SELEZEN: The bottom line is that we are prepared to have, as our President suggests, as many as we need to basically -- as many as we can find within our associate producer body, so to speak, to ensure that our operation is running smoothly and we have sufficient feedback from the communities that we are going to be serving. So I say it could be up to 15 members.

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431 THE CHAIRPERSON: How would you know that you need more? You say "as many as you will need".

432 MR. SELEZEN: We would know more, I suppose, by having local communities, local ethnic communities reflected. If we see that the reflection that the local communities is sufficient and if we don't have complaints from the communities as to the content of the broadcast material, we would assume that the number of our advisory board members is sufficient to sustain the operation.

433 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your Canadian Talent Development commitment, you have said that you would not abide by the CAB plan, but that you would commit to $30,000 per year as well outlined in your application, and repeated this morning.

434 I have a few questions about the New Canadian Voices part because it would appear to possibly include some direct expenditures that the Commission would not classify as direct expenditures.

435 How familiar are you with that list of acceptable or eligible direct expenditures as opposed to indirect which is in Appendix 2 of Public Notice of the Commission on Radio Broadcasting, I believe. I don't know if the staff has sent that to you or if you are familiar with it. It lists in an appendix what is eligible and what is not for direct expenditures.

436 Let's cut to the chase. Not considered direct expenditures are promotion on your own station, or the provision of studio time on your own station.

437 When given a breakdown of Canadian Voices, there would appear to be some amounts that are not necessarily eligible.

438 You have listed them, I believe, at question 8, I think, in your response to question 8 of the first question of clarification that you were asked. I think you filed a Section 16 and in that Section 16, under Canadian Voices, which you then call -- it's under the title Multilingual Music Initiative, you have a line of initial advertising for $1,000, plus promotion of $1,500.

439 MR. SELEZEN: If you could give me a second.

440 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I am looking at the first response to our letter of clarification. I believe it's dated June 11th, and it's at question 8 where you refiled a Schedule 16.

441 I don't have any questions on the other matters, but I do on your Canadian Voices which is under Part IV, Multilingual Music Initiative. Those amounts would not appear to fit the eligible direct expenditures, unless they are to be spent on stations other than yours.

442 MR. SELEZEN: Again, you are referring to Schedule 16 in deficiencies, in response to deficiencies that we filed.

443 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It's at Part IV which is now called Multilingual Music Initiative, but actually speaks to New Canadian Voices. What is the amount for advertising -- initial advertising, cross-promotion. Are these your own facilities that you will put at the disposal?

444 MR. SELEZEN: No. Here specifically we didn't mean our own facilities. We meant advertising and cross-promotion on different stations, radio stations and TV stations across the GTA.

445 THE CHAIRPERSON: And do you understand that when it's your own station time, or use of your own facilities, that it's not a direct expenditure?

446 MR. SELEZEN: We do.

447 THE CHAIRPERSON: And so it would not fulfil your commitment.

448 MR. SELEZEN: In this case, it does not refer specifically to our station.

449 THE CHAIRPERSON: With regard to No. 5, CD recording and other expenses, what are those expenses? Can you give us a better idea?

450 MR. SELEZEN: Through our talks with ethnic musical producers, by "other" we simply would like to allow some additional money to be spent on these initiatives, simply the overhead that we project.

451 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would that be produced by Accent Studios?

452 MR. SELEZEN: It would be produced by Accent Studios and it would be produced by another ethnic studio that is closely associated with us, a Ukrainian studio in Toronto.

453 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is under organization of the venue? The rental of equipment, security of personnel? This would be the venue --

454 MR. SELEZEN: Number 4. Sorry, it should be No. 3 actually. Organization of the venue, $2,500, yes.

455 THE CHAIRPERSON: And what does that cover?

456 MR. SELEZEN: Primarily technical aspects of facilitating performances.

457 THE CHAIRPERSON: So rental of equipment --

458 MR. SELEZEN: Rental of equipment, yes.

459 THE CHAIRPERSON: And possibly of the venue.

460 Would this contest be open to all Canadian artists or only local artists?

461 MR. SELEZEN: This contest would be open to local artists. However, we would try to promote it in a way that all ethnic communities, not just Slavic or Eastern European communities, of Toronto might be included in the contest.

462 THE CHAIRPERSON: How would you select the judges since you obviously have a great number of different communities participating.

463 MR. SELEZEN: Through our synergies with communities we approached people of different backgrounds, musical producers, television producers.

464 We also have very close ties with several schools, several ethnic schools, for example, Pushkin School in Toronto, which has been operating for several years in Toronto for the Russian-speaking community in particular.

465 We would select judges based on their relevance to this music competition by nature of their education or their position within the community.

466 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I look at your revised financials, they were revised in June, and it's identified as Table 2.

467 Although you say your commitment is $30,000 a year, there is an escalation there throughout the years to $35,105 -- no, $35,807 in the seventh year. Are you committing to that or only to a minimum of $30,000? The script says $30,000 a year, but the financials show an escalation every year.

--- Pause

468 MR. SELEZEN: We simply accounted for the inflation factor and I think it was a stable figure of 5 per cent for the inflation factor that we used throughout our financial projections.

469 THE CHAIRPERSON: But your commitment is $30,000.

470 MR. SELEZEN: Our commitment is $30,000, but we expect that --

471 THE CHAIRPERSON: This was the result of your accountant putting the inflation to that amount. So maybe you will spend it, maybe you won't, but $30,000 is your commitment.

472 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, yes, it is.

473 THE CHAIRPERSON: This is a question that is puzzling. Both in your research, Mr. Oakes, at page 18, and in response to a deficiency question, I think the response was maybe 5th of June. It's not dated, but in June anyway. It's not the first one, the next one.

474 When asked to identify the sources of your revenues, in both cases it adds up to 110 per cent.

475 Oh, you noticed. So can you clarify what indeed it is?

476 MR. OAKES: First of all --

477 THE CHAIRPERSON: And Mr. Oakes, it's at page 18 in your document.

478 MR. OAKES: Right.

479 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess you were feeding the mistake on each other.

480 MR. OAKES: I have a document that you don't have right now.

481 THE CHAIRPERSON: As Mr. Selezen changed his.

482 MR. SELEZEN: I do. We just noticed this mistake and we discussed it.

483 THE CHAIRPERSON: What is the revision?

484 MR. SELEZEN: Mr. Oakes would provide you with the answer.

485 MR. OAKES: The annual revenue coming from local market radio stations, I listed as 10 per cent. This is revised.

486 Then among the others annual revenue coming from increases in budgets of existing radio advertisers, 10 per cent. Fifty per cent will come from new advertisers and 30 per cent will come from competition with other media.

487 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now this adds up to 100 per cent.

488 MR. OAKES: Right.

489 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

490 I have a few last questions of a more general nature.

491 I mentioned this morning that last Thursday the Commission had put out its licensing framework for specialty audio services. By that, we mean radio services that would be delivered not over the air but through a distributor.

492 In light of the number of applicants competing for the same few frequencies, what is your comment -- or do you have any -- about the suitability of this method of reaching ethnic communities as an alternative if the frequency is granted to another service?

493 Do you have a comment about how suitable this would be for you?

494 Of course, that is digital distribution unless one can convince distributors to use their analog capacity for it.

495 MR. OAKES: You are not referring to SCMOs?

496 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. It is a completely different plan, which you may not be familiar with. Perhaps you can get back to us at reply about that if you have a comment.

497 It is a document issued by the Commission on the 12th of September, which was last Thursday, I believe. It's PN No. 2002-53.

498 It is a licensing framework for more services by distributing them on cable rather than over the air, but not SCMO. It would be on cable, which is another means.

499 So you will get back to us as well as to the suitability or appropriateness of imposing a condition about the amount of programming that would be in the particular languages that are your major targets.

500 Now, I will give you an opportunity to tell us why this frequency that you are competing for with seven other applicants should be given to you.

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501 MR. SELEZEN: As to why this particular frequency has to be given to our station, I would like to say that we propose a new station that will serve more than 250,000 residents of the Greater Toronto Area, of minority ethnic origin which, we believe, is more than a sufficient number, broadcast to 24 distant ethnic groups in 25 different languages. Unlike other broadcasters we would serve a homogenous ethnic entity based on linguistic affinity and geographical proximity.

502 We would reflect upon most current needs of these local communities by providing most of our programming to local communities made by associate producers from these local communities; provide systematic feedback on issues relevant to ethnic communities in the most efficient way; broadcast at least six hours a week of cross-cultural ethnic programming.

503 Again, I point out that abilities of cross-cultural programming at a station such as this would, or can as a matter of fact, increase to more hours, more than six hours a week since we have so many languages of similar ethnic origin, so many large groups of people that would understand each other and try to tune in each other's programming at a new station.

504 We will be a new editorial voice in Greater Toronto with a unique perspective on matters relevant to proposed local communities. We would try to increase our Canadian content commitments by 10 per cent in the third year of operation as it was indicated with regards to our Canadian content commitments. We will contribute a sufficient amount, $30,000 annually to the development of the New Canadian Talent. We believe that new station will not impact on existing broadcasters striving to serve almost 50 per cent of ethnic groups that are currently unserved.

505 As was noted before, we would try our best not to compete with, or conflict with, the programming schedules of other broadcasters who have similar programs or programs for similar ethnic groups within the Greater Toronto Area.

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506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Despite your eloquence, Mr. Selezen, our legal counsel has a question for you, or some questions.

507 M^e STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

508 Just a few questions of clarification. Your commitment to raise your Canadian content levels with respect to musical selections from 7 to 10 per cent, I think by the beginning of year 4, would you accept that as a condition of licence?

509 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, we would.

510 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

511 Now, just very briefly on the question of Canadian Talent Development. If the Commission were to decide that some of the expenditures that you were proposing were not eligible, would you be prepared to accept that the overall commitment that you have made would apply regardless, that you would redirect some of those expenses to other eligible expenses?

512 MR. SELEZEN: Yes, we would.

513 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

514 What is approximately the amount of brokered programs that would be aired during the broadcast week? You may have answered this question before, but for the record I would be grateful if you could do so right now.

515 MR. SELEZEN: About 5 per cent, 5 to 10 per cent I would say.

516 MR. STEWART: Five to 10 per cent. So the balance would be produced by the station itself.

517 MR. SELEZEN: No. Ninety per cent would be produced by the station itself. Syndicated programming, you mean programming taken from other stations?

518 MR. STEWART: No. The associate producers, for instance. You have referred to them at length. How much of that sort of brokered programming, paid programming, would be aired during a broadcast week?

519 MR. SELEZEN: Most of our programming which, as I indicated before, would be up to 90 per cent.

520 MR. STEWART: Okay. I find it puzzling that you would have missed out the four groups that you subsequently -- and I think to use your words -- "discovered".

521 Can you provide for the Commission sort of a rationale as to why these groups were not originally included in your group, given that you have stressed homogeneity as a central thing?

522 MR. SELEZEN: Certainly. For example, as to non-Slavic groups such as Kasahks or Moldavians, it was through our talks with the different communities and through looking at different sources of media. We discovered that, for example, the Kasahk community tries to unify its members through appealing to the public to find ways to accommodate their cultural needs. As I indicated, it was published in several Russian newspapers and it came to our attention through those sources with regard to the Kasahk community of Greater Toronto.

523 As to the Moldavian community, for example, we also had a number of calls enquiring about the undertaking that we were proposing and that's how we established that there is a sufficient interest and there is a possibility to include Moldavians and programs for them at our station.

524 As to the Bosnian group, I think Mr. Oakes can elaborate on this question better than I would.

525 MR. OAKES: I was just going to give it a blanket coverage and say short filing time and we were, compared to a lot of others, relatively late getting into doing an application. If we had longer to do it, as we did after the application, we can identify these groups.

526 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

527 Does that answer also apply with respect to the source of the advertising revenues? In particular I am interested in that you have revised the percentage figure with respect to local market radio stations I think from zero to 10 per cent. Is that correct?

528 MR. OAKES: Yes, it is, but I guess you could say the major reason why I put in the initial one was I guess I didn't read the -- I apologize. It looked a little confusing to me to start off with the actual way it's worded. All of the lines are lumped together. So when I went over it, I was trying to make it at 110 per cent because I thought there were basically two things. One was the annual revenue you are going to get from other stations, basically from competing against other stations, and then all the others.

529 So I understood them -- after reading it a couple of times after we put the application in, I realized that should add to 100. This is me as a researcher and I have been doing this since 1977, I guess. If I'm confused on it, I am willing to bet some other people are.

530 So what I would do is I would separate them out a little bit or reword it. If you want help on that, I would be perfectly willing to do it.

531 MR. STEWART: I think you may be the only one among the applicants who had that -- who misinterpreted it in that way.

532 MR. OAKES: I'm surprised.

533 MR. STEWART: My final question is with respect to the advisory group. As I understand it the associate producers will form part of the advisory board or the advisory group. Is that correct?

534 MR. SELEZEN: As a matter of fact they would form more than half of our advisory board as these synergies with local producers established within the context of a new undertaking.

535 MR. STEWART: Excuse me. I didn't quite understand. Could you just -- how many, as a percentage of the board, would be associate producers?

536 MR. SELEZEN: We initially proposed five members and then we went on to increase our advisory board, I believe, to eight members or nine members. I think it would be more than that since we propose to serve that many groups, and I think that half of, at least the larger groups, the larger Slavic groups and larger Eastern European groups, would be represented on the advisory board by an associate producer, which would, I believe, increase our advisory board to I would say at least 15 members.

537 MR. STEWART: See the question I am wondering is how objective can an associate producer be in terms of the comments that he or she may choose to make and viewpoints that he or she may choose to bring to the advisory group, given that they are responsible for programming and would like to see presumably programming from their community reflected as much as possible on the air?

538 MR. SELEZEN: We have thought of it, and I think that we would try to accommodate this particular issue by having our advisory board set up in a way that more responsibility would be given to senior members so that we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of being sort of -- with a problem of particular interest which as it seems is what you address, isn't?

539 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

540 Merci, madame la présidente. Je n'ai plus de questions.

541 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am a bit confused. The question with the sources, the breakdown of the source of advertising revenue is divided into part A and B. A is local market stations. Then you deduct that from 100 and you divide the rest. How is it going to be market growth.

542 Do I understand that you are still estimating that you will take 10 per cent from existing stations, that your revenue may come to the extent of 10 per cent of its total from existing radio stations?

543 MR. OAKES: The first year, yes.

544 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And the B part, how did you change it so that we would get 100 because I thought I had understood, but --

545 What did you reduce in the B part to account for the 90 per cent left?

546 MR. OAKES: I think I reduced -- I don't have the original here, but I think I reduced the -- I think it was 60 per cent for new advertisers.

547 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

548 MR. OAKES: And I put that at 50 per cent.

549 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And then the other 40 per cent remains competition with other media.

550 MR. OAKES: Right.

551 THE CHAIRPERSON: TV and newspapers. It reminds me of a high school teacher of mine who was kind of lazy and how he prepared his exams. If you got it all right you had 117 per cent on 100. If you don't think pleased your parents --

--- Laughter / Rires

552 MR. OAKES: And we would love 117 per cent of revenue too. Unfortunately it's not possible.

553 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your cooperation. We certainly got along better as the morning proceeded.

554 MR. SELEZEN: On behalf of our panel, I would like to thank you very much for hearing us out and giving us the opportunity to present this application.

555 Thank you.

556 THE CHAIRPERSON: Two things. I have raised the Specialty Audio Licensing Framework. The staff has copies of it if other applicants want to have a look at it because they may be asked the same question.

557 I also remind you that you may all be asked what is your comment about the appropriateness of imposing a certain amount of programming in your main languages to keep your service looking like you proposed, whether you feel this would be helpful for you, and appropriate from a regulatory perspective.

558 Thank you very much. We will now take a break until 20 to 2:00. I remind those who may want to use technical services or enhancements to check that everything is operative before you are heard.

559 Thank you very much.

--- Upon recessing at 1240 / Suspension à 1240

--- Upon resuming at 1345 / Reprise à 1345

560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

561 I would ask that cellphones be turned off while you are in the room. They are very distracting for people who are appearing and for us.

562 Thank you very much.

563 Mr. Secretary, please.

564 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

565 The next application is by Canadian Multicultural Radio for a licence to operate a commercial FM ethnic radio station in Toronto.

566 The new station would operate on a frequency 101.3 (channel 267B1) with an effective radiated power of 440 watts.

567 Appearing for the applicant, I would ask Mr. Stan Antony to introduce his colleagues.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

568 MR. ANTONY: Thank you. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff.

569 My name is Stan Antony and I am the Chair of the Board of Directors of Canadian Multicultural Radio.

570 We are pleased to be here to present our application for the new ethnic FM station to serve the Greater Toronto Area.

571 Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce our team.

572 To my left is Mohan Nadarajah, President of CMR, who will lead our team today.

573 Mr. Nadarajah was the founding President of Tamilvision, a successfully launched digital specialty service.

574 To his left is SivakKumaran, Sivapathasundaram, Operations Manager of CMR, who will take on the day-to-day management of the station.

575 To Mr. Kumaran's left is Ravinder Singh Pannu, one of CMR's shareholders, who brings experience as the President of Sur Sagar Radio, an SCMO station, and the President of SSTV, a South Asian language digital TV service.

576 To my right is Dr. Rita Deverell, a founder of VisionTV, who will be the Chair of our Advisory Committee.

577 In the second row, staring behind Mr. Pannu, is Wikneswaran Paramanathan. Mr. Paramanathan gained his programming experience at the Sri Lankan Broadcasting Corporation. He will serve as the head of our Tamil-language programming.

578 Beside Mr. Paramanathan is Neethan Shanmugarajah of the Canadian Tamil Youth Development Centre.

579 Beside Neethan is Siva Sanmuga who prepared our business plan.

580 Next is our legal counsel, Gary Jessop of Blake Cassels and Graydon.

581 Next is Kerry Wicks, President of Mediastats Inc., who conducted all of our research.

582 Beside Ms Wicks is Gordon Elder who prepared our technical brief.

583 We would also like to acknowledge the presence of our shareholders and some of our programming partners present today.

584 The other two shareholders are Padmini Selvadurai and Dr. Kandiah P. Gnanendran. Dr. Gnanendran couldn't be here with us due to an emergency call from the hospital.

585 Next I would like to introduce Joan Jenkinson, the Director of Programming Operations at VisionTV.

586 Beside Ms Jenkinson is David Nguyen, who will produce and host our Vietnamese programming.

587 Dr. Francesco Portugal, who is a physician and Vice-President of the Filipino Community Centre, will oversee the Filipino programming on CMR.

588 Tasleem Zulfi will be the producer and host of our Urdu programming.

589 I would also like to acknowledge the presence of a number of hosts and producers of our programming.

590 Please excuse this long introduction, but we want you to know that our other colleagues are also available to answer any questions that you might have.

591 Mohan.

592 MR. NADARAJAH: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we would like to now start our presentation in chief.

593 Our presentation today will outline the following: the philosophy and the approach of our application; how we chose the groups to be served; our programming schedule; our unique approach to cross-cultural programming; and our Canadian Talent Development initiatives.

594 We will conclude our presentation by describing how we will be responsive to our communities through our advisory committee and other mechanisms.

595 Our application is built upon: a strong ownership group; detailed research to determine what group to serve; partnership and alliance with established broadcasters and grassroots community groups; a programming schedule that provides maximum diversity to the market; a solid business plan with conservative projections of revenue and general expense projections.

596 We realize that the seventh station into the market would need a committed and experienced ownership group, a solid management team, strong programming partners with good access to the communities, and the capacity to reach out to underserved communities with relevant and high quality programming.

597 Our ownership team started within the Tamil community with Mr. Antony, an accomplished businessman with the experience as a controlling shareholder of Canadian Tamil Radio, a successful SCMO service.

598 We added two professionals from our community, both known for their business acumen and devotion to the community. We then reached out to Mr. Pannu to bring us his knowledge and experience in programming to the South Asian community.

599 Our shareholders bring more than enough financial resources to underwrite this venture.

600 The first step in determining whom to serve was the development of a statistical model of population and broadcast service in GTA by Kerry Wicks and her team at Mediastats.

601 Kerry.

602 MS WICKS: Thanks, Mohan.

603 Good afternoon, Madam Chair. Determining ethnic populations is challenging. Many communities are underreported for a variety of reasons and ones has to decide which measurement to use -- in this case, the choice between ethnic origin, home language, mother tongue or knowledge of the language. Of course, human beings often have individual takes on their ethnicity.

604 For example, a Punjabi speaker from Pakistan could report himself as Canadian, Pakistani, Punjabi, Indian or South Asian. We decided to use ethnic origin, the measure from the 1996 Census that would best relate to the more recent immigration data from the intervening years to estimate the 2001 population. Finally, to deal with the multiple ways that people report their ethnic origins we did some groupings.

605 We then developed an analysis of the number of hours of AM and FM programming during the broadcast week for each group and developed an index of service. The hours were based on the published program schedules of the six ethnic stations licensed to serve Toronto. Using this and the population data we developed an index of service which divided the number of hours into the estimated 2001 population. The larger the index, the less served the population.

606 Mediastats believes that the index is a strong indicator of the state of service in the GTA. We also conducted consumer and advertiser research into two groups which provided the most promising opportunities.

607 Kumaran.

608 MR. KUMARAN: Thanks, Kerry.

609 Good morning, Commissioners. In building our schedule we started with the index and then looked at a number of other indicators. We considered the size of each group to determine whether there were enough people to warrant service, as well as other factors such as language retention.

610 We also looked at the interest of the community in receiving service and entrepreneurial efforts in providing such service. To do this, we looked at the number of media serving the community.

611 All of these factors led us to identify a number of groups that need daily service. These groups were the South Asians, the Spanish speakers, the Somalis, the Arabic community, the Farsi-speaking community, Tamils, Vietnamese and Filipinos. We also identified a number of other groups whom we propose to provide significant blocks of programming during the weekend. These include the Caribbean and African communities, a number of Baltic communities, Russians and Scandinavians.

612 Then we sought our programming partners and allies with proven experience and other media interests, proven experience to ensure quality of service and credibility in the community; other media interests to develop interesting programming and advertising synergies.

613 We approached a number of ethnic stations to discuss scheduling that would be complementary rather than competitive. This resulted in a programming schedule with increased diversity and less conflict with other stations.

614 I would now like to ask Mr. Pannu to provide an outline of our philosophy of service to the South Asian community.

615 MR. PANNU: Thank you, Kumaran.

616 Good afternoon, Commissioners. I have provided South Asian programming in Toronto since 1987 in many languages on both radio and television.

617 In that time I have seen the South Asian population grow to over half a million people, with about 80 per cent from the Punjabi-speaking community. Punjabi speakers are relatively well served in the GTA with programming on a number of stations and from Sur Sagar's SCMO radio.

618 At the same time, they represent a large number of people, so we decided to provide an alternative, a half-hour programming every morning focusing largely on news.

619 While many South Asians understand and appreciate Hindi, for most it is not their first language. Our approach will be to provide programs in a number of languages to the smaller South Asian community while also providing Hindi programming that may well also appreciate it.

620 So our daily Hindi programming has two elements to it. The first hour will be directed to those whose first language is Hindi with news, community services and announcements relevant to the community. The balance of the daily programming in Hindi will be directed to all South Asians with spoken word and entertainment programming, including a special segment for women.

621 We would now like to show you what our schedule will look and sound like.

--- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

622 MR. KUMARAN: The problems, challenges and opportunities of ethnic youth are remarkably similar. The same is true for the women of these communities. Moreover, while all of us have an incredible range of English-language music programming we know little about the music of the other communities that make up our city, whether that is the over 75,000 people who indicated they spoke French in the 1996 Census, or the estimated 80,000 aboriginal people in Toronto.

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623 We decided to develop three cross-cultural programming, one for youth, another the more general multicultural program forum with a particular focus on women, and a third, an entertainment mix.

624 Now I would like to ask Neethan Shanmugarajah to discuss our youth programming.

625 MR. NEETHAN: Thank you, Kumaran.

626 Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Members of the Commission.

627 CanTYD was founded in 1998 by 14 university and college students in response to the negative portrayal of Tamil youth in the media. We faced issues such as intergenerational conflicts, culture shock, gang violence, to name a few. CanTYD has two main goals.

628 One, to foster a positive image of Tamil youth and the Tamil community in general.

629 Two, to empower, support and guide Tamil youth in the GTA.

630 CanTYD has now grown to a youth service centre over the four years with 250 active volunteers and eight staff members. Our services are funded by the City of Toronto, Ontario Trillium Foundation, the Ministry of Justice and the United Way. Our activities this year include outreach programs in 12 schools, eight drop-in centres and other youth projects like theatre, poetry, artwork, awards and scholarships.

631 CanTYD has formed good relationships with media such as CBC and the Toronto Star. Also with boards of education like Toronto District School Board, York District School Board, and with youth service agencies that serve many other ethnic groups.

632 First let me talk a little about the Tamil youth show which will air on Saturday morning. It will be a lively blend of entertainment, news, opinion, discussions, information and exposure for local talent. It will provide an opportunity for youth to showcase their talents and a supportive forum to discuss their issues.

633 CMR and CanTYD also felt that there would be great benefit in a cross-cultural youth program. One, youth will get a better understanding of culture and traditions of other ethnic communities that make up Toronto.

634 Two, youth of all ethnicities will have a forum to discuss issues of common interest such as safe school policy, the Young Offenders Act, and so on.

635 We have already entered into informal discussions with other youth organizations such as Tropicana Community Services and Toronto Youth Cabinet about this program. This magazine program will include features on many ethnic groups and the broad issues that face all of us. Of course, it will also feature locally produced music of many cultures that we serve.

636 Kumaran.

637 MR. KUMARAN: Thank you, Neethan.

638 We also identified a need for adults to meet across common issues. In particular, women in our communities have a complex role, often working outside the home but also expected to play a key role on passing on culture to their children and caring for the elderly.

639 We propose a two-hour Sunday morning slot for this program with a special focus on women. It will be produced in-house and will have access to VisionTV's production team and researchers.

640 We expect the program to be a dynamic, often controversial look at the issues affecting our community. It will also provide a bulletin board of upcoming events and will direct our listeners to other information sources.

641 CMR will also produce a weekly two-hour entertainment show every Friday night. The show will be a mix of music, comedy, poetry and even story-telling, all based on the community we serve but hosted in English. Since Toronto includes large francophone and aboriginal communities, we will air the music and other materials from them.

642 CMR will spend $40,000 annually in direct third party costs for the development of new ethnic music and journalistic talent.

643 Our annual talent search will be instrumental in identifying new ethnic talent in a concert which we will record for both radio and television. We will broadcast the audio show during our Friday night entertainment show and on our affiliated SCMOs. The television programs will be broadcast by a number of digital specialty services with whom we have partnered.

644 Our annual Cross-cultural Festival will feature performance from our ethnic communities, as well as Franco-Ontarians and aboriginal performers. Our agreement with Toronto's French community radio includes our commitment to air the winner of the MICRO's talent search. We will work with aboriginal radio stations and APTN to identify a performer.

645 Once again, our audio and videotapes will be available for broadcast on radio and television. VisionTV, which already has a strong international music strand in its programming, has expressed interest in working with us to further extend the exposure the artists will receive.

646 Similarly, APTN has expressed interest in the program.

647 We will also contribute $3,000 annually to the CAEB Ethnic Music Catalogue and a further $7,000 for scholarships for ethnic youths in journalism.

648 I would like to ask Dr. Rita Deverell, who is the chair of our advisory committee, to speak to our community feedback mechanisms.

649 DR. DEVERELL: Thank you, Kumaran, and good afternoon, Commissioners.

650 A channel providing access to diverse producers and community groups has a number of difficult challenges to face: deciding what communities and which producers have access to the airwaves; dealing with issues of quality programming; ensuring balance and respect to the for the laws governing broadcasting in some 22 languages.

651 When CMR approached me to be the chair of the advisory committee, they asked me to look at my experience with multiple faith and multicultural communities to suggest creative, fair and flexible ways to deal with the issues.

652 I suggested that getting everyone onside before launching the station would solve many future problems. So CMR developed the producer contract that is included in the application. It ensures that everyone knows the expectations in advance and that mechanisms to deal with any infractions are in place.

653 They also established an advisory committee, which I chair, and whose vice-chair, Sherwin Pagtakhan, will represent both the Filipino community and youth. We will be made up of nine members chosen for expertise in many facets of ethnic radio.

654 While we would have chosen a representative from each community, in my experience that is too large a number for a working board. And a working board is what we are going to be.

655 The committee's first task will be to develop and implement a workable code of practice. Thanks to a strategic agreement with VisionTV, we will have access to their experience in this area, and we intend to actively seek out comments from, and the buy-in of, our producers.

656 The committee will also serve as a sounding board for the community, will deal with any serious matters immediately and will provide quarterly reports directly to the board of directors of the station with any recommendations for changes.

657 Thank you.

658 Mohan.

659 MR. NADARAJAH: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I would like to sum up our application.

660 CMR has a strong shareholder team ready to invest $1.6 million in this project. We have a developed a program schedule to fill the most underserved ethnic communities in Toronto.

661 Our schedule will be complementary to that of the existing station, ensuring great diversity. The strategic alliance we have developed will ensure quality programming.

662 Our Canadian Talent Development will provide direct funding to the Canadian ethnic talent.

663 A focused programming with CanTYD will give a platform for youth to discuss their issues and views.

664 Unique and focused cross-cultural programming will foster a better understanding among ethnic groups in Toronto.

665 We are proud of our application. We are proud of our work on this application and look forward the opportunity to put our ideas into action.

666 We would be pleased to respond to your questions.

667 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and welcome, Mr. Antony, and your colleagues.

668 MR. ANTONY: Thank you.

669 THE CHAIRPERSON: Vice-Chair Colville, please.

670 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

671 Mr. Nadarajah, I presume you are going to quarterback.

672 MR. NADARAJAH: That's right.

673 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I am awfully tempted to ask Ms Deverell to comment on the 13 Commissioners when she made her comment about nine-member boards and how beyond that -- but I won't go there.

674 We are here this week and today really to fill in the blanks, because all of the applicants have done a lot of research and filed detailed submissions. So our role here is just to get a better understanding of the applications and perhaps fill in some of the blanks.

675 In asking my questions the area that I want to focus on, at least initially, is on Ms Deverell's comments on page 16 of your submission this afternoon on the difficult challenge you face, in the first two bullets, deciding what communities and which producers have access to the airwaves and dealing with issues of quality programming.

676 What we would like to do is get a better understanding and some more details on the groups to be served. While you have listed all of the groups, where is the programming going to actually come from and how are we going to get this programming on the air?

677 There is a fair number of general statements in the application regarding this.

678 You have committed to devote a minimum of 113 hours, or 90 per cent of the broadcast week, to ethnic programming directed to a minimum of 16 cultural groups, which you characterize as being either underserved or unserved in the GTA radio market. Beyond that, 86.5 hours or 68 per cent of your ethnic and third language programming would be directed to seven principal cultural groups: Tamil, Hindi-speaking East Indian; Filipino and Farsi-speaking Iranian; Vietnamese, Somali and Urdu-speaking Pakistani.

679 I am wondering if you could outline the steps you would take to ensure you can provide the amount and the quality of local programming, which speaks to Ms Deverell's points, necessary to adequately meet the needs of the groups you propose to serve, with the emphasis on the seven principal groups that I just mentioned that you identified in your application.

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680 MR. NADARAJAH: In order to ensure the quality of the programming, we have a number of ways we developed. One is we have identified partners in the communities that we propose to serve who have experience in broadcasting either on radio or SCMO or digital TV.

681 Also, we have made alliances with many of the community groups from each of the communities you have mentioned to get their input.

682 The third thing is, as Dr. Deverell mentioned, we are going to have an advisory committee which is going to make sure we represent all the communities that we serve in a quality program manner.

683 We are planning to develop guidelines to make sure the guidelines are met by the independent producers who are going to produce the programs.

684 I wonder if you could add to that.

685 MR. KUMARAN: Just as a summary. The majority of the programming in our station is going to come from South Asian languages: Tamil, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi. Those aspects of the programming are going to be station-produced, which will account for more than 50 per cent of the broadcast week.

686 The other programs are going to be produced in conjunction with associate producers.

687 As an applicant, we realize we are ultimately responsible for the programming that the independent producers make, and we are going to put in procedures to make sure these balance and the programming reflects the needs of the communities.

688 We are going to have feedback mechanisms by which our advisory committee can monitor all the programming on the station to make sure it is reflective of the needs of the community.

689 In coming up with a schedule, we spoke to several of the ethnic communities in Toronto to find out about their interests in programming. If I may, I might give you an example of one.

690 In the Filipino community, as an example, we spoke with Dr. Portugal initially in the fact that he was the Vice-President at the Filipino Centre. We went to them and asked them, obviously from our index the Filipino community seems underserved. So what is the appetite for programming and what type of programming would you like to see?

691 Now, after discussions with him, then he was very interested in joining forces with our team and actually taking on the independent producer job for that section of the programming.

692 Similarly, we did this with many producers and we sought out producers that had a variety of media interests. For example, the Farsi community. We partnered with the Persian Vision because they are a licensed SCMO operator and they are licensed to operate a digital specialty service which they are planning to launch.

693 So by joining forces with the communities, people in the community that are already serving the community they will provide programming that best reflects their need which is the underlying factor of our application.

694 We want to make sure that the communities get what they want.

695 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Going back over this then, when you talk about 15 per cent roughly of the programming being station-produced and largely serving the South Asian community, can you be more specific in terms of the number of hours and the community groups that you are going to target?

696 I think this is the area where we were trying to get a better handle on just the specifics of the programming and the target groups, balanced between station and independent --

697 So if we could just perhaps focus on the station-produced now as to which groups and how much programming.

698 MR. KUMARAN: Absolutely. The South Asian community is once again, 50 per cent of our programming. The Tamil community will have 32 hours of broadcasting. It's laid out in the programming schedule attached.

699 The Hindi programming we are directing at the general South Asian community with specific segments of the Hindi programming in spoken word directed at only the Hindi-speaking people. That accounts for 17.5 hours of programming.

700 Now, the other South Asian programming we produce in-house is the Urdu programming which accounts for five hours, and we have Punjabi programming which accounts for 2.5 hours. Beside that we have a number of other communities, Malayalam, Telugu, Gujurati, Bengali, Sinhalese, which account for one hour per week of programming.

701 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So in your program block there, of which a large segment is Tamil from 4:00 until 9:00, I guess, that's all station-produced, is it?

702 MR. KUMARAN: Yes, it is station-produced.

703 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. And can you provide similar sort of specifics in terms of the independent non station-produced programming?

704 MR. KUMARAN: Non station-produced programming, we have the Filipino programming from 12:00 to 1:30 weekdays. That is produced by Radio Filipino and that's Dr. Portugal. He is with us today.

705 Spanish programming is produced from 11:00 to 12:00. We have Farsi programming from 1:30 to three o'clock daily Monday to Friday. We have Somali programming from three o'clock to four o'clock produced by Radio Golis. Then we have the station-produced segment of Tamil. Following that, Monday to Thursday, 9:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. we have Vietnamese programming followed by Monday to Thursday's Arabic programming from 10:00 to 11:00.

706 Then we have one-hour slots once a week: Monday, Malayalam; Telugu Tuesday. On Wednesday we have Gujurati. Thursday Bengali and Sinhalese.

707 On the weekends we try to schedule programming in blocks that we can move the communities to regularly listen to certain blocks of programming I would like to focus in on.

708 First, our youth programming which we are going to be having in Tamil which will lead into the multicultural youth forum. Those blocks will be weekly, followed by Somali programming. Then we have a Caribbean programming block between four o'clock and eight o'clock, followed by African programming that will be conducted in various languages. As you may have seen in the presentation that particular block is going to be produced in the French language directed at the French-speaking communities in Africa followed by the Russian programming between 10:00 to 12:00.

709 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you. I see the schedule and the list of names. I guess what I am trying to get a sense for or of is -- and you mentioned in your original application that you were in the process of contacting these various groups in the community.

710 I am wondering whether you can update us as to what has gone on since you filed the application in terms of contacting these groups, and what sort of real commitments and what sort of the nature of the programming that is going to be serving the various communities.

711 I mean, you read out the blocks there and there are names attached to those in terms of the group they are going to serve.

712 MR. KUMARAN: Right, that's right.

713 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: But what real commitments do we have here in terms of independents doing this and what will the nature of the programming be to serve those communities?

714 MR. KUMARAN: I would speak to the programming which we have already identified the program partners for, but generally when we spoke to a lot of producers, there is a general affinity to news-related programming about their communities, their own music and spoken word programming from all the ethnic communities we have spoken to.

715 Now, we have identified producers which we have put in our application from the Filipino community, the Farsi community, the Somalian community. We have letters of intent filed.

716 Now, when we approached these communities they were very interested in providing program with us because they realize the huge need in their communities. So in terms of firm commitments we are pretty sure that these commitments they have provided will enable us to enter into contracts once we are going to be on air.

717 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Well, I don't want to sound too negative, but it sounds like we have identified a block of time here and we talked to some people in the community and we hope they are going to come along with some programming.

718 MR. KUMARAN: How are we going to ensure that?

719 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Yes.

720 MR. KUMARAN: In our business projection we have identified, based on the amount of programming that we have been able to locate in terms of independent producers, we estimate that the day we start the programming 60 per cent of all the other ethnic groups we would have already found independent producers for.

721 For the ones we are unable to find producers for, we have a commitment to make them in-house until we find a producer in the community.

722 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Sorry. Could you just repeat that last part again? Did I understand you to say that you would do some of this programming in-house until you found somebody?

723 MR. KUMARAN: That's right. When we did a detailed -- once again, we have talks. When we are working with the communities, we are expecting to find a majority of these community producers for. In the event we do not identify a producer, we are prepared to make the programming by ourselves and we have budgeted for those costs in our business plan of the application.

724 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: How did you do that then in terms of drawing this balance between what you would have to do in-house and accounting for that in the expenses as compared to what you will get from independent producers?

725 MR. KUMARAN: I would like to ask our financial advisor, Siva Sanmuga, to speak to the exact breakdown of the numbers.

726 MR. SANMUGA: Thank you, Kumaran.

727 As Kumaran said, in total, after you take the South Asian community, we have about 230 hours of programming that we need from other communities.

728 As of now, when we filed, we have about 128 hours being sold or having an executive producer. It's in our business plan that when we launch the station, we will have independent producers for all the other ethnic communities other than South Asian.

729 However, we have allocated -- so if you take 230 hours, we have sold 128 hours. So we have about 102 hours of program that is not accounted or that we don't have independent producers for.

730 So for that, we allocated allowances and a budget for that so that they can really pay them to come and do programming for us and then we will have our sales people working with those producers to sell commercials during those times.

731 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I appreciate it's difficult to get people to commit to providing programming when we just have to hope that we are going to have a licence at some point in time, but as of today, I mean, you had indicated in your application that you were talking to these and you would hope to get more commitments as you go along.

732 As of September 17th, what sense do you have of commitments from specific groups that you actually have programming from independents as opposed to be on your own to do it in-house. Can you specify which communities you would with some confidence know that you would be getting programming from these independents, if you will?

733 MR. NADARAJAH: Actually there is a list of the committees other than South Asian that we have identified, either producers or the strong allies that will give us a producer.

734 We have Filipino, Farsi, Vietnamese, Somali and Arabic, Malayalam -- Kumaran, is there anything else?

735 MR. KUMARAN: Yes, the African programming as well.

736 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: When you list those do you know the nature of the programs themselves?

737 MR. KUMARAN: We do know the nature of the programs from our conversations. Like a couple of these communities we don't have. We have talked to the communities. We have talked to the producers. As I mentioned, we have letters of intent which were filed in the application. It isn't a contract that is binding, but in our estimation we feel very confident that by selecting the underserved communities, we have made sure there is enough interest in the communities by making sure we are giving programming to communities that are underserved.

738 By that mere notion, and speaking to a lot of these communities, there is a lot of interest. We are in conversation with a few. Since we don't have anything concrete with a few of them, we would not say that we have them until we make sure that we have a letter of intent from them.

739 So we expect to have the majority of our programming -- already independent producers aligned by the time we launch. But we have made provisions that even if we don't we are going to make sure that we follow our application commitments.

740 MR. NADARAJAH: If I may? The number of interventions we got from various communities showing how much they are interested in seeing our programming and how much they want to support us shows how much they show an interest.

741 Some of the committees we haven't really identified was the producers, but as Aswan mentioned, talking to them and those are the letter we have received from them, also from the various organizations, 200 plus, from different communities that support us. I am pretty sure we should be able to find the producers before we launch.

742 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: In dealing with the communities and the independent producers, you have referred to these programming teams and the community coordinator. I am wondering if you might just describe for us the role and responsibilities of the community coordinator within the programming team?

743 MR. KUMARAN: Yes. We have an executive producer for other South Asian languages, for Tamils, the large blocks. Since a lot of the other programs from the other communities are in smaller blocks of time, we wanted to put a station coordinator that will help to coordinate and make it accessible for the other communities to come in and do their programs easier at the station, to make sure that we provide quality programming. That is the only reason why we made sure we identified that resource in our business plan.

744 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So how many of the targeted groups then would have a coordinator?

745 MR. KUMARAN: We have one coordinator in the studio to coordinate the independent producers and some of the programming in case we do not identify a producer, but we are going to have individual hosts and producers doing those programming. This is a resource to help them.

746 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So the coordinator is largely targeting the smaller groups?

747 MR. KUMARAN: Yes. One coordinator is to target the smaller groups that we are planning to serve.

748 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I guess my last question in this area is: To what degree would individuals or members of the ethnic communities be involved in the creation, production or on-air delivery of local programming?

749 MR. KUMARAN: Individuals from the communities, we are going to make sure that we are going to get programming relevant to the communities by consultation with community groups. It wasn't possible for us to do an advertising survey for all the communities, monetary being one of the reasons. We did it for the two main communities. We were not able to cover all the communities.

750 But we plan to have consultations. We plan to have feedback mechanisms to get from the communities. We plan to promote for all the languages that we plan to cover. We plan to promote it on other media so that the communities can provide us feedback and we would monitor it with our advisory committee to make sure that the programming is what really reflects their local needs.

751 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: When we talked earlier about to the extent that some of the smaller communities, smaller groups, don't come forward with programming, you would do it in-house within the station. I guess I am wondering once you get started down that road of doing station-produced programming for some of those groups, what would then be the incentive for you to stop doing that and go out to the communities.

752 MR. KUMARAN: The reason why --

753 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: How about your Financial Officer sitting behind you there?

754 MR. SANMUGA: I can answer that question. If you look at our revenue model, how much we are really generating, I allocated only $80 per hour from these smaller communities. The reason being even though we can have a sales team it's really hard for us to get a commercial from each different ethnic communities themselves doing it.

755 I think that will motivate us on the financial side to have an independent producer for each of these programs.

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756 MR. KUMARAN: If I may add? Ethnic media relies heavily on personal relationship selling and involvement in the communities. That is why for the communities that we were not able to identify direct sources within their stations, we tried to outsource it because within the communities they will be able to better connect with the communities.

757 The whole purpose of us finding these unique partners like Persian Vision, with service to the community with other media, is to give programming relevant to the community because it's a lot of relationship selling in ethnic media and that is part of the reason why it would be in our best interest to try to provide service to third parties that have more knowledge of the communities.

758 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Mr. Nadarajah, do you want --

759 MR. NADARAJAH: I have the same calling up the ethnic media. We are heavily dependent on their religious selling. So in order to get the market advertisement through these communities, it would be better if the independent producers who have lots of connections to their communities would do the programming rather than the station doing it in the beginning -- sorry, at a later date.

760 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Now, when I looked at your program schedule, I note a lot of time is devoted to music. I will just take Tuesday for example, starting in the morning with Urdu we have classical music. Then we move on in the Hindi section, we have classical music again, Top 40 Hits, Old is Gold. I'm not sure what monsoon mix is. That could be music too I guess. Then we go on to Spanish and we get Latin Hits and in Filipino we have karioke. Then Tamil we have Listener's Choice, Songs from Films, and so on, through the day.

761 I guess I would like to get a better sense of the relative balance between spoken word and music and the sorts of music that we see here.

762 From what I read a lot of this, given my own cultural background I guess, when I see Top 40 Hits I'm back to the '50s and '60s and Elvis Presley and the Everley Brothers or whatever. So I would like to get a better sense of the relative mix between spoken word and music and what is sort of the nature of the music that we are talking about here.

763 MR. KUMARAN: Spoken word programming we anticipate to cover 50 to 60 hours of our programming which will account for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 per cent to 40 per cent of our total weekly broadcast.

764 Again, as I mentioned, the percentages we need a variance because we want to make sure we give what the audience wants. If we find out the audience wants more spoken word than music, we will try to accommodate them.

765 Going back to the amount of music, coming back to your question, because we have to serve a larger demographic we cannot just play one particular type of music. We have to cover, for example -- let me go from the beginning.

766 When we said classical music Urdu, it was in consultation with our program producers because that time in the morning it is customary to play more classical music than more popular music. To make an analogy, it would be more like opera music rather than pop music for that community in Tamil, followed by classical music again in Hindi to start off the programming.

767 The Top 40 Hits is popular music from movies. The music industry in the ethnic communities where we come from, South Asia, the music tracks usually come from movies. The music is made for the movies and are released on CDs. There are very few independent artists who release programming. But we have quite a bit of local music as well which has a lot of fusion in it which we will incorporate in the music.

768 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: If I can just interrupt you there. When we use the term or when you use the term "classical" or "Top 40" here, are you using those terms in, for lack of a better term, I would say a North American context? Are we talking the same sort of classical music I would understand or are we talking about Urdu classical?

769 MR. KUMARAN: Urdu classical music. I am talking about each particular language we are going to be broadcasting in that particular language. Urdu classical music.

770 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Similarly with Top 40?

771 MR. KUMARAN: Similarly with most of the languages.

772 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: These would be Top 40 Hindi songs?

773 MR. KUMARAN: Right. The Top 40 Hindi songs, some of the Hindi programming does go to, as I mentioned, we have two types of -- within our Hindi program we have two mixes, one directed specifically at the Hindi-speaking people, mostly spoken word, the music-related programming going towards the overall general South Asian population.

774 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Would some of this music be western music?

775 MR. KUMARAN: No. None of the music that we have listed in the schedule comes from western music. All of them will be ethnic music and we are going to make sure that we have Canadian content music in there to make sure we fall within the Canadian content.

776 But I was just mentioning the classical music, meaning classical Hindi music, classical Urdu music, in that sense.

777 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. So going back to a comment that you made just at the outset of answering this question, then, you said we want to give the audience what they want. What is your perception of what they want relative to this issue of spoken word versus music?

778 MR. KUMARAN: For the two languages that had majority of the programming, South Asian and Tamil, we did an audience survey and I would like to ask Ms Wicks, who conducted the Media Stats survey, to speak to the interest that the community showed.

779 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: This would be separate from your weighting of programming and so on that is in the marketplace, Ms Wicks?

780 MS WICKS: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner.

781 We did several different types of research. I believe Kumaran is referring to the consumer research, if I'm not mistaken, where we surveyed people in the communities.

782 Is that correct, Kumaran?

783 MR. KUMARAN: Yes.

784 MS WICKS: So when we did our consumer research one of the questions we specifically asked was: What types of programming would you like to see on our proposed radio stations. Spoken word was certainly one of the top selections for all communities, for the Tamil community in particular. Music was also one of the strong categories particularly in some of the other South Asian communities.

785 But from our summary findings certainly news from home, news about Canada, news about the communities within Canada, particularly Toronto, and music were among the most frequently selected types of programming.

786 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Given that a fair bit of the programming is going to be music, and apparently your audience wants a fair bit of music, but from this independent programming, how are you going to assure yourself that there will be an amount of spoken word programming to satisfy those communities where the programming will be less in your control?

787 MR. NADARAJAH: We would have a feedback mechanism, as we mentioned before, in various ways. One is the committee can address this to the producer, the producer of the program, and they can also address to the management of CMR.

788 If that fails, they can go to the board of directors. As a last resort, they can address this to the advisory committee. We will provide fax numbers, phone numbers, website access to the committees to send this information directly to the people they would like to send. For example, if they want to address it to the advisory committee, they would have an e-mail that they can send directly to the advisory committee. Then from there the advisory committee will do whatever is necessary to get back to the board or to management to rectify that.

789 If I can ask Dr. Deverell to outline that.

790 DR. DEVERELL: The applicant is fully aware that they are responsible for what they broadcast, whether the program is in-house or independent. So the communities that have already signed on have indeed agreed to the balance, the rules. They have agreed to those up front.

791 Those communities who are not signed on, and I perceive that we are talking a considerable amount about them, will also need to sign on to the rules as agreed to.

792 So the management would certainly be ensuring that those producers who are not yet adhered, if I could call it that, would be adhering to the rules as agreed to.

793 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I guess I have been asking that question -- I'm not so much concerned about whether CMR would be abiding by the rules, if you will, of the ethnic programming policy or even our broader rules in terms of broadcasting, about being responsible for the program you air, and so on, as much as I am about you satisfying your own concerns about division that you have for the station and being satisfied that a block of programming isn't just wall to wall music and isn't addressing some of the concerns for that particular group that you have chosen for a reason to try and serve the needs of that group, and presumably serve the needs of that group with a certain amount of spoken word programming to provide news about that community to that community.

794 So I am wondering how you are going to satisfy yourself that you are achieving that with the independent programming, not so much a concern about whether you are satisfying our rules, but whether you are satisfying your own vision.

795 MR. NADARAJAH: I think one of the ways that we can do that is to consult with the committee who is serving that program because obviously we don't speak all of the languages we are proposing to sell. It would be hard for us to sort of directly judge whether the programs are addressing the need of their community. The only way to do that is consulting with the committee organizations that they have in the smaller communities.

796 Also we can do a quick survey of some sort to find out whether the people are satisfied with it. Also we will make sure, during the programs of the small communities, that they will announce the mechanisms that are available for the audience, the ones I have mentioned -- the fax numbers, phone numbers, and the websites -- where the committee can come back and say to us, "We are not happy with the producer" or "We are not happy with the program". That's the only way we can find out whether the audiences are happy or not.

797 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Now in a similar sort of vein you have news in a number of blocks across your program schedule. Would I understand that the news within a given block would be in the language of that group? For example, between 9:00 and 10:00 you have Vietnamese programming and you have news at 9:00, would that be in?

798 MR. KUMARAN: Yes, the news would be in the spoken word of the language that we are serving. So the news would be in Urdu.

799 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Now, is that true of all the groups?

800 MR. KUMARAN: That's true of all the groups. We are going to have access to news feeds worldwide, but the news will be produced locally and will have spoken word in that particular language.

801 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: And will those groups be dealing with local news stories? I mean, you talked about international news feeds, and so on. So you might be picking up on news from Vietnam or wherever. Will you also be providing local Toronto Vietnamese news?

802 MR. KUMARAN: Yes. We have arranged for a BN newswire service for the station, which will provide local news. That service will be available to all the independent producers as well as the station-produced for them to get quality news content included in the news.

803 But the independent producers will be taking those segments and incorporating them and producing that in the station.

804 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Now, will you be providing any English-language newscast or information packages that would perhaps cut across a number of different groups?

805 MR. KUMARAN: We haven't proposed any cross-cultural news segments to cover a wide range of audience. So the news is specifically directed to those communities, in those communities' languages.

806 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Changing our focus for a little bit. When you introduced, your rather long introduction at the outset -- I was afraid you were going to use up all your time with the introductions this afternoon.

807 You introduced Mr. Pannu, who operates Sur Sagar Radio TV and operates SSTV, the national ethnic digital service, I would just like to get a better understanding of the relationship between your other operations, if you will, and this one and how those synergies might work together.

808 Specifically -- well you could address that in a general way, but I have several specific questions that relate to that as well and how much of the weekly programming would be provided by SSTV.

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809 MR. PANNU: SSTV just got launched last year in September, and SCMO radio has been working since a long time. Mostly particularly Punjabi programming which will be 6:30 to seven o'clock and we collect all the news from various sources. We will be providing that news toward CMR.

810 So with the association with CMR it will be parallel. So I can explain the way when we do any news at our Sur Sagar Radio or SSTV, it will be provided to CMR because CMR can be listened to in the car and Sur Sagar Radio, which is SCMO, it is only to the household listener. It can't be listened to in the car.

811 So we will associate our programming to CMR and it will focus on local angles, news from India, from Punjab.

812 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Does this suggest then that most or all of the programming that will be provided in Indian Punjabi come from these other operations?

813 MR. PANNU: Some of the programming will be provided by existing SSTV and Radio Sur Sagar, but we will be putting some new programming on at CMR. Accordingly the audience asked for that.

814 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: So what would be the ratio of programming that comes from Sur Sagar or SSTV and the new programming that would be just CMR?

815 MR. PANNU: Like I really explained, the news will be gathered by SSTV and Sur Sagar Radio and the rest of the programming will be separate from Sur Sagar and SSTV. But it will be accordingly to CMR programming.

816 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Perhaps you answered this in the question, but the programming assistance, if I can call it that, or the programming that you would be providing from your other operations, would that be limited to Tamil and Punjabi?

817 MR. PANNU: If you can repeat again? Sorry.

818 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Would the programming that is provided from SSTV and Sur Sagar -- let me ask it this way. What languages would that be provided in?

819 MR. PANNU: That will be Punjabi and Hindi.

820 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Punjabi and Hindi.

821 MR. PANNU: Yes.

822 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you.

823 Will some of this programming be simulcast at the same time as it is on Sur Sagar and CMR?

824 MR. PANNU: No, it will be at different times because Sur Sagar has mostly at the morning time religious programming and if you see the chart of programming at the morning time, it's mostly different programming than Sur Sagar. So Sur Sagar will mostly play at the morning time religious programming. So CMR would have a different programming than Sur Sagar.

825 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Will there be any financial assistance provided between SSTV and Sur Sagar and CMR?

826 MR. PANNU: As I indicate in this application, if we need to invest the money for CMR, we should.

827 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: But that would be as an equity investment, not as a regular financial contribution.

828 MR. PANNU: Yes.

829 MR. KUMARAN: Maybe I could answer that question.

830 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Sure.

831 MR. KUMARAN: As far as the Indian, or the South Asian community is concerned, or the South Asian and Tamil, we have allocated funds for one executive producer and one fulltime staff to produce these shows. So it will be CMR as well.

832 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Now, Mr. Kumaran, you have been trying to jump in here, or at least I have seen your light go on there a few times. Did you want to add anything to this discussion?

833 MR. KUMARAN: Basically for the programming that we have set out as station-produced, we have identified resources within our financial plan and budget to do these programs to be produced in-house.

834 In terms of the resources, the synergies we are talking about, is to provide better quality in terms of getting a news feed, as Mr. Pannu said, from his SCMO services to enhance the programming, but all the programming that we have identified for the other South Asian and Tamil are completely going to be produced independent of all the programming partners and producers that realize for all the programming.

835 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Thank you for that.

836 Now, are there any other synergies that you expect would happen or take place between SSTV and Sur Sagar on the one hand, and CMR on the other?

837 MR. KUMARAN: Yes. The synergies that we are expecting to take place would be, first of all, the needs of the community will be addressed better by the people that have already experience in their community. Since Mr. Pannu has quite a bit of experience in the South Asian community that's why we reached out to him.

838 We are trying to use the resources or cost promotion as a key to supplement what is already there. So we would drive audiences from the other programs. If you want to listen to news, you can tune into CMR and when we sign off on CMR we will say, "If you want to listen to more Punjabi programming, it will be available on the CSMOs". We will do it similarly for all the other program partners that we have identified that have similar resources in radio, television, et cetera, to give the ethnic communities a better understanding of where they can get their programming and make it acceptable to them easier.

839 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you.

840 Now, you have indicated that some of your programming will be open-line calling-type shows. In fact, it would be a major element in some of the ethnic groups, for example Tamil, Vietnamese and Filipino.

841 Who do you expect to be targeting these sorts of programs to?

842 MR. KUMARAN: Open-line programming that we have, we have open-line programming addressed and all the producers from all the other communities are welcome to participate in open-line programming, but the station is going to have some firm guidelines set in the policies and we are going to make sure we educate every producer, in-house or independent producer, about the policies. We will make sure we follow the CAB quota open-line programs and also the CAB regulations with regard to open-line programming.

843 We are going to make sure that we set our own guidelines with the help of our advisory committee to better do this.

844 One station is going to be ultimately responsible for all the programming and we are going to make sure that all open-line programming is done with balance, high standards, that there is no abusive comment. We expect to use a time delay mechanism to make sure that there is no abusive comment.

845 When it comes to balance of programming, any open-line programming that if the producer knows it's a contentious issue, he is supposed to give notice to the station manager, so that in the following weeks we can provide another viewpoint to give balance of programming when it comes to open-line programming.

846 We are going to diligently educate our producers about the responsibility of doing open-line programming so that they do not make the mistake in the first place rather than correct it later through our advisory committee. We are going to rely heavily on our advisory committee for their input. That's why we have approached a lot of experienced people like Dr. Deverell to help us with this.

847 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Given the number of program segments that are going to come on these independent producers, will any of those segments be involved in open-line shows because you were indicating earlier the difficulties you have with even just having the skills within the management group within the station to be familiar with all of those languages?

848 MR. KUMARAN: We are going to make sure that any producer, independent producer, that signs on to us signs on to a code of practices which will contain a high amount of education on open-line programming. If they choose to produce such programming, if the communities want open-line programming, it is in our duty to provide them such service, but we are going to make sure we provide it responsibly and we have ways of monitoring it and we will do that through our advisory committee. Plus also some feedback mechanisms about announcing in a particular open-line programming, should you not agree with the thing that you can fax your comments, e-mail them, send them to the website, if a mechanism is in place to get the feedback from the audience.

849 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You have talked about the advisory board this afternoon and how the advisory board is going to be monitoring local content and assist in evaluating the station's success in implementing its local programming initiatives.

850 I'm wondering if you could describe in some more details what specific mechanisms you would establish to evaluate your programs with respect to meeting your local program initiatives over the course of the licence term?

851 I guess another of asking that is how are you going to measure your own success and sort of achieving your objectives here?

852 MR. KUMARAN: First, we will rely heavily to put together a plan that takes into account what the local people want and we are going to make sure that most of our programming is going to be locally relevant programming produced in Toronto with initiatives. The whole reason we are taking on this objective is to make sure we give programs that are much needed to the underserved community.

853 So we are going to reflect it in the program. The feedback mechanisms is the only way we can monitor that each individual producer is doing their part in terms of local programming. We are going to have a high amount of local programming coming from each of these communities to each of these communities.

854 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: But specifically how will the advisory committee function in terms of helping you to understand and measure that?

855 MR. NADARAJAH: I will ask Dr. Deverell to speak on that in a minute, but the reason that we approached very experienced people like Dr. Deverell is to bring the expertise that they have in our multiethnic and multicultural programming and also the partnership dimension that we have with VisionTV who is also an experienced multiethnic multicultural programmer would bring the experience to develop a guide that will help us in dealing with those issues.

856 But I will ask Dr. Deverell to comment.

857 DR. DEVERELL: As you can hear, the management is extremely committed to the philosophic basis of the application, and just looking at the construction of the schedule they have already made a significant commitment to serve underserved groups, including not only linguistic groups, but if I might say so women as well and young people as well who are underserved within many of these communities.

858 So I think that the first response that I would make as someone essentially in an advisory capacity is that there is a philosophic commitment to meeting the goals of the schedule.

859 The management will be dealing with the first level of concern, that is management will be setting up the schedule and being proactive about seeking out the underserved communities.

860 There will be however a number of ways for communities to respond directly to both the station, to management and, if need be, to the advisory committee.

861 We would propose, if there are areas that management cannot deal with, or where there are sufficiently repeated complaints, and I think I couldn't say at this moment, until we fully develop our complaints mechanism, what "repeated" would mean, but certainly the advisory committee itself would deal with repeated either underserved groups or improper balance in programming, or obviously things like abusive comments. But the first level would be managed.

862 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I appreciate your point, and I agree with you. I mean, it certainly would appear management has a great philosophy of what is being put forward here today, but I guess thinking back to the general representation we had here this morning before the hearing officially started, where we had the message that well this notion is enshrined in the Broadcasting Act and perhaps it's in Telefilm's guidelines and mission policies, and so on. But at the end of the day, how do you actually measure that in a way that you can identify it as, "Yes, we are actually achieving some success here".

863 And so I guess, as Chairman of this advisory committee, I guess I am wanting to get a sense from you of how you are going to recommend whether this success is being achieved or not here and what measures you think would be used to determine that, to get past just the philosophy of, "Yes, this is working" or "It's not working. We better change the focus here a bit".

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864 DR. DEVERELL: I do think that the schedule is a strong commitment to underserved groups. It would be our responsibility at the end. We have talked about quarterly reports. Certainly we would need to evaluate not only whether the rules had been broken, but we would also need to give management and the board some feedback on whether it is meeting its philosophic commitment to underserved communities.

865 I indeed do take it as a great source of consolation that it's there in the plan, that these matters have not been overlooked.

866 At the end of the day, yes, we would need to say: "Are we meeting the goals that we have set for ourselves? And here is our evaluation of that".

867 MS WICKS: Mohan, could I jump in for just a moment?

868 If I may, Mr. Commissioner, just add to what these people have said.

869 This is a group that has really spent a lot of time developing a bottoms up sort of model for their station. As you can see from the people before you, this is a largely Tamil and South Asian group, but they came to me to develop their model and develop their index, they said they had actually been working on this for quite some time. Who are the people we need to serve? How do we serve them? How do we keep ensuring that we are serving the right people?

870 We have been working and reworking and reworking these models since this data came out, as new immigration data came out. I don't want to speak to my client's future intentions, but they have made it quite clear that they intend to keep measuring their audience, keep measuring their constituencies, keep going back and reassessing and repolling and reviewing.

871 Obviously with a group this diverse and in populations and immigration patterns that constantly change, it is conceivable that needs may evolve over the term.

872 Thank you.

873 MR. NADARAJAH: If I can add to that, we would be doing what we proposed to do, and we will make sure we did that.

874 Also, in order to get there, we will make sure we have a mechanism for the communities that we are serving to find out whether people are happy with the program or whether people are happy with the way that it is done and bring the feedback to management, and we will discuss if there is an issue to make sure we rectify that.

875 We will definitely want to make sure that people are being served. As Kerry mentioned, we want to make sure that the languages we are representing are underserved and we will keep going back and doing this.

876 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Ms Wicks is going to be on retainer, then. Her contract is not over.

877 DR. DEVERELL: If I could jump in here again, I am not. I have detected an uncommon philosophic commitment to do what we are saying. At the end of the day, I think the simple question of "are we meeting our goal" needs to be evaluated on quarterly, twice a year, at the end of the year.

878 Are we meeting our own plan is the question we have to ask ourselves.

879 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Not just financially but philosophically in terms of the underpinnings of this whole application.

880 DR. DEVERELL: Correct.

881 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Ms Wicks mentioned one of the prime targets being the Tamil community in the introduction of her answer, which prompts another question.

882 There is a fair bit of programming available to the Tamil community now in this market. You are proposing Tamil be obviously one of the dominant groups available in an area that includes the Vietnamese and Filipino part of the Arabic community, which also has substantial populations in the Toronto market.

883 However, those have very limited programming available in their languages.

884 With that as background, I understand -- I forget what you called it now, but sort of this weighting that you put upon the availability of programming.

885 I wonder if you might explain again how we arrive at Tamil as being one of the significant ones, given that it has some service already available in the market.

886 I appreciate that Mr. Antony is one of the founders of this, so I presume you may want to give part of the answer.

887 MR. ANTONY: Thank you, Commissioner.

888 Right now in the Tamil community we have three SCMOs, but the SCMO cannot reach all the people. They cannot listen in the cars. Only the people who can listen to that are at home.

889 That is the reason right now we are looking into the FM to reach people and give them -- SCMO people that buy the radio. It is hard for them to do that.

890 We decided we need an FM channel to reach the people. That's the main thing we did. That's all.

891 So the SCMO sometimes is there but wouldn't give much reception. They can't listen, they can't be on the phone and they cannot listen to the radio. It is very hard.

892 In that way, we think our community needs an FM radio.

893 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Do you have a sense of what in fact you would have on the SCMO services?

894 MR. NADARAJAH I think on the SCMO services are very minimal, because the SCMO service is targeted to what sort of audience and programming on 24 hours. As Stan mentioned, there are limitations in SCMO radios.

895 The letter the commission sent you mentioned the drawbacks of the SCMOs.

896 In terms of programming impacts, we will make sure we don't compete directly with the SCMOs. We try to program our station to complement the SCMOs.

897 Also, as mentioned earlier, the SCMO is the target audience, and we are a wider audience. We are trying to target much more audience, people in the cars and workplaces and others. So the program will be to serve the larger audience and the SCMO is the limited audience.

898 MR. KUMARAN: If I may add to that, the times we have scheduled the Tamil programming is in the afternoon drive, taking this into account to reach the people in their cars. There is such a huge appetite for radio in the community. That is why there are three SCMOs. But they are discriminatory in their reach. We feel providing regular over-the-air service is what the community really needs.

899 There are several digital specialty channels available recently, but the Commission has licensed CFMD too, which will make it free to air ethnic programming.

900 Similarly, we think that ethnic communities, Tamil communities, would benefit by getting free to air service.

901 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where a drive period would generally constitute from 4:00 until 5:00. I am not surprised, watching the traffic on the 401, that your Tamil drive period runs from 4:00 until 9:00.

902 WTOR and the programming it provides into this marketplace, what sense do you have on its impact on the Toronto market?

903 MR. NADARAJAH: WTOR brings a number of hours to the South Asian community in Toronto, but WTOR is not regulated by the CRTC. The focus of the committee is to put the programs on the air.

904 What we think is that in our program we should compete with WTOR and repatriate some of the revenue that is brought to WTOR.

905 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You are confident you can repatriate some of that revenue and presumably consequent with the audience.

906 MR. NADARAJAH: Absolutely. We are planning to prorate a program, and also we are going to talk to the other ethnic program stations in Toronto, for example, CJMR and CARB, and have a decision with them to make sure we do a program in such a way that we compete with WJOR.

907 We have already initiated talks with CJMR with Michael Kane and also CARB on this front. Once we are licensed, we will sit down with them and put together plans to repatriate most of their revenue that is brought south of the border.

908 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You say once or assuming you have a licence. I noted, from reading a number of the interventions, that there are already some Toronto-based producers who produce programming on WTOR.

909 Have you talked to any of those in terms of trying to repatriate that programming back and put it on your station instead?

910 MR. NADARAJAH: We haven't yet, but once we are licensed we definitely will be talking to them.

911 MR. KUMARAN: I would like to add that when you look at our programming schedule, we have put the South Asian programming to go directly head to head with the programming from WTOR and not to conflict with the other South Asian programming in the other six Toronto stations.

912 By providing competition head to head, we think we can bring in the advertisers and the listeners. By that, we will also be able to bring in the producers as well.

913 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you.

914 Now I would like to ask a few of these COL, condition of licence, questions, which I guess we just need the answer for the record. I can presume what your answer is going to be, but we need it on the record in any event.

915 Would you be willing to adhere to a condition of at least 90 per cent of ethnic programming, at least 85 third language programming each week as a COL?

916 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes, we will commit to 90 per cent ethnic programming, and we will do 80 per cent third language programming.

917 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: With respect to Canadian content, in your June 7, 2002 letter you confirmed your commitment to broadcast by COL 7 per cent minimum.

918 Elsewhere in your application you referred to programming a minimum week of 10 per cent Canadian content.

919 For the record, would you confirm to adhering to a minimum of 10 per cent?

920 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes, we will.

921 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: This morning Vice-Chair Wylie commented on this issue which has been raised by several of the incumbents about the possibility of a station obtaining a licence based on certain promises to certain language groups. One of the notions that Vice-Chair Wylie suggested this morning -- and we are really just looking for your comment on this issue, and as she indicated this morning you might want to think about this and come back later on.

922 The first applicant obviously didn't have a chance to think about it. You have had a little bit of a chance, and as we go on through the week people are going to have a longer chance to think about it.

923 Would you be prepared to accept a condition that, at a minimum, 48 per cent or thereabouts of all ethnic programming would be directed in the Tamil-Indian-Filipino languages or the major language groups? You could expand it or contract it.

924 I am trying to get a sense of the notion of the concept more than the details of the percentage and the languages.

1515

925 MR. NADARAJAH: Did you say 48 per cent?

926 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Yes, 4-8, 48 per cent.

927 MR. NADARAJAH: Of South Asian programming, including Tamil and other languages. I think we would be comfortable working with that number. We would be comfortable working with that number.

928 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You would not?

929 MR. NADARAJAH: We would be.

930 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: You would be, okay.

931 Well, again, if you want to think about it some more, you can comment again at the reply period.

932 I guess I will give you a final opportunity -- a sort of final question -- if there are any other issues you want to raise.

933 But we have the rather difficult task of choosing one successful applicant out of seven. When I told people that I was coming to this hearing, my wife, that I have the unenviable task of going to Toronto and picking one application out of 17 -- although we have 17 applications here there are really seven competing for this frequency. So I would like you to tell us in your own words, given the competitive nature of this, why you think your application is the best use of 101.3.

934 MR. NADARAJAH: I would be happy to tell you why we should be cued to 101.3. The other frequency that we identified as a second option, 105.1, it has a lot of limitations in terms of the population that we propose to serve. So we would like to get 101.3.

935 Through our presentation and discussion today, we believe that we have demonstrated that we have a unique application. I am going to give you ten reasons why we believe we should be granted the licence.

936 One, we have a strong, local show of a team with $1.6 million of their own funds in this project. This is considerably more than the financial needs that we have identified.

937 Two, we have developed a robust business plan with conservative revenue projections and expense projections.

938 Three, our comprehensive research and analysis give us confidence in the selection of 16 groups and 22 languages that are underserved. CMR will reflect the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of GTA.

939 Four, our complementary approach to the scheduling with some consultation with existing broadcasters and avoid conflict with existing schedules will expand the amount of programming that are available for the communities to be served.

940 Five, our experienced management team and the program partners will help provide the high quality program to the communities to be served.

941 Six, the grassroots connection that we, we and our program partners have, with the communities will ensure that we are and we will be in contact with our communities.

942 Seven, we have a unique approach to cross-cultural programming with special emphasis on youth, women, culture and entertainment.

943 Eight, our partnership with SCMOs, with the digital TVs, with VisionTV and others, will ensure the $40,000 in direct Canadian development expenditures will have an impact above and beyond the amount of dollars.

944 Nine, our proactive approach will ensure that our producers, both in-house and independent, have a good understanding of what is expected of them in advance to going on-air. This will ensure balance in matters of public concern, respect of the regulations and board costing policies, and fulfilment of our commitment.

945 Ten, our strong advisory committee will provide another means to ensure feedback from communities reflecting our programming.

946 Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity to be here today.

947 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Thank you for that.

948 Actually, I forgot one other area that Commissioner Wylie raised this morning and that is the new licensing framework for specialty audio programming services that was released last week by the Commission. She provided the group this morning, ARK, with an opportunity to comment on that as an alternative as well.

949 Now, given your comments already today on the importance of drive, I can guess what your answer is.

950 MR. NADARAJAH: Your guesses are pretty good.

951 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: I will give you an opportunity to answer now or, as she provided this morning, you could choose to answer later on if you wish.

952 MR. NADARAJAH: Actually, this is similar to SCMO. It has limitations in terms of the need to pay for the service. As you mentioned, you cannot listen to it in the car. Yes, the quality is better than the SCMOs, but there are limitations still there.

953 I think the communities we propose to serve will be served by our over-the-air programming which we shouldn't pay anything to get the service. So we believe that we should get the 101.3 rather than using the digital --

1535

954 COMMISSIONER COLVILLE: Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

955 Those are all my questions, Madam Chair. Thank you.

956 MR. NADARAJAH: Thank you.

957 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

958 Commissioner Noël.

959 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Just one question. When Commissioner Colville asked you about the SCMO service, Mr. Antony, you answered that there were three SCMO services broadcasting in Tamil and our statistics show four, so there is one that has been abandoned or are our statistics out of date?

960 MR. NADARAJAH: I think the fourth one is no longer broadcast, if I am right. Right, Kumaran?

961 MR. KUMARAN: Yes. There are only three operational. There is one that has been licensed but it is off-air, on-air. If you ask communities they don't even know it exists.

962 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So there is technically four, but in full operation only three.

963 One small question. The Tamil language is served, besides the SCMO, it is also served by off-air radio at this point. Am I correct to say that there is about 43 hours of Tamil broadcasting?

964 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes, it is on from midnight to six o'clock in the morning and for our calculation we didn't count because the broadcasting day is from six o'clock to midnight and people don't normally listen after midnight. So we didn't count that in our calculations.

965 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So the AM station CHKT doesn't do it during peak periods?

966 MR. NADARAJAH: No, it doesn't. It is from midnight until six o'clock.

967 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much.

968 MR. NADARAJAH: Thank you.

969 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I have no other questions.

970 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.

971 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just had a couple of questions to get some clarification.

972 First, on the discussion you had with Commissioner Colville on the community producers and the producers you have lined up, as you were having that discussion with him I was trying to go through what you have given us in terms of the kinds of agreements you have, and based on what I can call from this page and your introductory remarks today with the background of the people who are here, let me just go down what I have been able to notice and you tell me if I am missing anything else.

973 So what I am looking at is what languages you have producers on board for, just so that I have a good sense of that.

974 I am going down a list of the languages that you have given us, and I don't know whether you have something similar to this, just a list that lists the languages and the numbers that you could -- right, yes.

975 So what I see is Tamil is Mr. Paramanathan, both in-house and the SCMO and Tamilvision. For Hindi programming, Mr. Pannu through your SCMO and SSTV. Then you have some from Rim Jhim. Filipino, Dr. Portugal; Vietnamese, Mr. Mohan; Somali, Mr. Rashid Yuusuf Cige; Urdu, Mr. Zulfi; Punjabi, again Mr. Pannu; and Gujurati and Bengali, Rim Jhim.

976 Those are the ones I have been able to cull from here. Are there others on this list of languages that you intend to have where you have either producers who have agreed or you have letters of intent?

977 MR. KUMARAN: We have producers from the African community who have agreed. We have yet to sign a letter of intent, but we are in the course of doing that. We are in the course of discussions with an Arabic producer.

978 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I beg your pardon?

979 MR. KUMARAN: We are in the course of discussion with an Arabic producer who we intend to identify soon. The same thing applies to the Caribbean community. We are already in talks, we are just trying to formulate the letter of intent.

980 In terms of the other programming, we have the whole team that are here today of producers and hosts that Mr. Pannu has that are going to be producing the South Asian community. If you don't mind, I can ask him to stand to show how many producers we actually have, hosts that we have already identified. So I would like to ask the producer --

981 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It is more the names that would be useful for the record, if you could just tell us.

982 MR. KUMARAN: For the record, again the producer is going to be Mr. Zulfi.

--- Pause

983 MR. PANNU: Mr. Zulfi is in there. We have Gujurati expertise, and we have a Punjabi producer programmer, Mr. Nadarajah. We would have many senior shows. We would have "Old is Good", Mr. Rajda. He is already doing the show with us on Sur Sagar Radio and he has been doing it for 20 years. He used to do it on CHEN and then he came to us a year ago. Today he is not available, but so he today is not available. But we have a full team of all independent and our own produced programming.

984 MR. NADARAJAH: Commissioner, did you mention the Farsi Committee? We have a letter of intent from the Farsi Committee as well.

985 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You have the Farsi --

986 MR. NADARAJAH: Also I think we have a producer from Malayalam. We don't have a letter of intent yet, but we have been talking to a Malayalam producer as well. You have probably seen them on the video that we played. They were there.

987 MR. ANTONY: I should also mention that we have a producer for the Vietnamese section. He is here right now.

988 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, I noticed that. Okay. Thank you for that.

989 In terms of the youth programming, the Tamil youth programming that you have listed for eleven o'clock on Saturday, CanTYD, is that in English or Tamil?

990 MR. KUMARAN: That particular program is going to be in Tamil. CanTYD is also going to move into the multicultural youth programming for the next two slots.

991 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The one right after that.

992 MR. KUMARAN: Right after. I can ask Neethan, who is here from CanTYD, to speak about the programming, if you wish.

993 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In a moment maybe.

994 The multicultural youth forum you have on Saturday and then on Sunday, are those two different programs or are they just repeated on Sunday?

995 MR. KUMARAN: They are two different programmings. The one on Saturday is focused to the youth community. That is going to be station-produced again, but we are relying on the expertise of CanTYD. The one on Sunday is adult multicultural forum with the particular focus to women.

996 MR. NADARAJAH: To add to that, we have a partnership with VisionTV who brings a lot of expertise in multicultural and multiethnic women programs and also Sush Madgadh(ph) from Rim Jhim is also going to have some input on the multicultural women program segment.

997 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was my next question on VisionTV. What is VisionTV's role, apart from Dr. Deverell being on the advisory committee, what is the role?

998 MR. KUMARAN: We wanted to give higher quality programming. What we want to is bring cross-cultural programming with a lot of resources. We are relying on the Rolodex of important people and connections that Vision already has. I could get Ms Joan Jenkinson, who is here on behalf of Vision, to explain that further to you.

999 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to get a sense of which program that would be. Would that be the multicultural forum?

1000 MR. KUMARAN: It would be in the multicultural forum, but not limited to that alone. Their role is in also cross-promoting our Canadian Talent Development programs as well, and they were going to provide resources right across any of the communities which they are able to help us, to give some expertise.

1001 MR. NADARAJAH: Which also will help us for the developing of our accord of practice. They have experience. I am sure Dr. Deverell will have great input too, but with Vision's help we can further find a framework to make sure we bring a high-quality program to the listeners which in a sense also is going to help us. Also on our Canadian talent initiatives, we have interest in cross-promoting the talent winner.

So there are a number of initiatives.

1002 Commissioner, if you want to get more information, I can get Joan Jenkinson for the details of Vision's partnership.

1003 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, perhaps in a minute or two if, Mr. Neethan, you want to say a couple of words about your youth program, and Ms Jenkinson about Vision's role.

1004 MR. NEETHAN: I think for our Tamil youth program, I think we have at present the entertainment benefit. There are other benefits to that show. What we focus on is four objectives. One to provide a forum for them to discuss issues so they discuss the issues. At the same time, the adult population will be able to hear it and this communication gap being filled.

1005 The second thing I think is the showcase of talent and success for youth so that there is role model effect. The third one would be to kind of involve as many youth as possible in the production so that they develop those kills.

1006 The fourth, of course, being part of the social service sector as the director, there is so much benefit by providing information about our events and activities to the youth through this medium.

1007 In terms of cross-cultural youth programs, we only intend to facilitate because our organization is an ethno-specific youth service organization. You want facilitate with so many other organizations we work with who serve different other communities like Warran Woods -- I can list all of our social service organizations and cultural groups.

1008 What we would do is we would alternate -- there would be a permanent host and then the other co-host would be alternated to reflect the needs. So that's the way the multicultural show would be. The format and objectives would be linked in terms of sharing experiences about their ethnic communities, and at the same time discussing issues that affect all of us and it gives a unified and a strong voice that way.

1009 If there are any other questions, I can answer them.

1010 MS JENKINSON: At VisionTV our two main interests initially are the two-hour cross-cultural program for women and the multicultural music festival that is being planned.

1011 The festival will also be videotaped at broadcast quality by the station as well so that we wouldn't be able to use the program on our air.

1012 In addition to that, we are committed to providing expertise in a number of areas from researching to acquiring music rights, interviewing skills, story development, writing. Our extensive list of potential contacts that can be used as experts for programs as well as grassroots community people who they might be interested in accessing, as well as our extensive list of producers who have worked with over the years and have developed relationships with.

1013 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Those are my questions. Thank you very much.

1014 Thank you, Madam Chair.

1015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Counsel?

1016 M^e STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

1017 Just a couple of quick questions. Let me see. I just need to clarify for the record, when you responded to Commissioner Colville's question with respect to the number or the percentage that you would be willing to abide by by way of COL for third-language program, I thought you said 80 per cent, but I suspect you meant 85. But it may have been me. I may have been --

1018 MR. NADARAJAH: Actually, I did say 80. The reason I said 80 is we mentioned on our application 85. We put a sort of future and the demographic changes in Toronto over the years. We may have to cater to different people in different areas.

1019 For example, if for some reason a Caribbean-African population grows in number and they want the most service, then we want to allocate a few programs to them. We just want to have a little bit of leeway there. That's all.

1020 MR. STEWART: Yes, but as I understand it this is a commitment with respect to third-language commitment. So this would be provided -- I mean, you are proposing to increase the amount that could be provided in English or French. Is that what you are --

1021 MR. NADARAJAH: With the third language, if there is a group that needed more services, we just want to have a little more flexibility there. That's all.

1022 MR. STEWART: So once again it's 80 per cent. That's the figure for the --

1023 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes.

1024 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

1025 Now, with respect to the independent producers, what exactly is the nature of the arrangement that you would be having with them? Would you be paying them a licence fee or would they be essentially brokers and be bringing programming to you which they would pay you to air? If you could just elaborate on that. Thank you.

1026 MR. NADARAJAH: The independent producers will be brokered at the time to produce the certain hours that they are brokered.

1027 MR. STEWART: And that applies to all the independent producers?

1028 MR. NADARAJAH: I am sorry?

1029 MR. STEWART: Would all the independent producers that you would be working with, would they be brokering the time?

1030 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes, that's correct. For a fee.

1031 MR. STEWART: Okay. Where is that reflected? The revenues that you would receive from that, where is that reflected in your financial projections -- just very approximately?

1032 MR. NADARAJAH: I will ask Siva Sanmuga who has prepared our business plan to speak on that, please.

1033 MR. SANMUGA: Do you want the total amount or where it is being reflected?

1034 MR. STEWART: Yes. Under which item in your financial projections which are very aggregate could we find them?

1035 MR. SANMUGA: Actually, we didn't separate into two categories -- as far as the financials are concerned, we didn't do it in a detailed way. As far as the financial plan is concerned, I only put the time that we are already brokered or that we have made agreement to.

1036 If you look at the revenue of the community per year that we are doing in detail, those communities that are brokered and the rate that we are already signed for has been allocated. So that's how we calculated.

1037 MR. STEWART: I'm not sure that I quite understood that, but essentially as I see it there are sort of three items in terms of revenue. Would it be under "other" for instance?

1038 MR. SANMUGA: No, it would be under "local revenue", if you are referring to the chart on the application on page 5. It would be under No. 3 where the local number is. If you look at the first three it would be 992,326.

1039 MR. STEWART: Okay. I will look at that during the break then.

1040 Now, just one last question. At page 15 of your response to deficiencies, and your letter of the 7th of June, 2002 -- I am not sure if you need a bit of time to locate that particular page -- all I am wanting for the record is how do you define there the Hindustani community which, in terms of population factor, you have stated is 166,188.

1041 MR. SANMUGA: Actually, I will ask Kerry Wicks, our Mediastats consultant, to speak on that, please.

1042 MS WICKS: I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the name of the community that you would like clarified?

1043 MR. STEWART: It's just the one community, the Hindustani community. How do you define the Hindustani community? I see these figures, I think, were derived from Statistics Canada, but just for the record it would be helpful to have that information.

1044 MS WICKS: Yes, certainly. For the purposes of our research we grouped a number of South Asian communities, including Hindis, Punjabi speakers, Pakistani, and so forth, under sort of an umbrella that we used that term Hindustani.

1045 One of the reasons we did that is because we were examining data across a number of variables, where you have language and ethnicity that cross over. So it's a term that the communities themselves use to describe this sort of lose grouping of languages and ethnicity.

1046 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

1047 Merci, madame la présidente. Je n'ai plus de questions.

1048 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm looking at your financials. Would it be fair to say that the contract you have with your brokers would generate some advertising, a portion of advertising, that will flow to you rather than to the broker? Is that how it's done, and therefore it's under "sales".

1049 The question was: Since a large proportion of your programming will be brokered -- I guess counsel's question was: In the financials, how does that show up? In the end it's sales of advertising in those brokered blocks, some of which flow to you and some of which stay with the broker.

1050 MR. SANMUGA: Maybe I will answer that question.

1051 As far as the brokers are concerned, we are going to be selling hours to them, to the independent producers at a certain rate per hour and that's how the revenue is going to be generated.

1052 However, during those periods we have reserved about two minutes for us to put any advertising that might go cross-cultural such as national advertising.

1053 THE CHAIRPERSON: The question then remains, in your financials where you find the sale -- do you just consider the same as advertising, the sale of the block? Because all we have is local time sales and national time sales. Year three you start having other revenue, but it's all under there.

1054 MR. SANMUGA: It is, it is.

1055 THE CHAIRPERSON: And it would not be possible for us to separate or allocate what is the time and what is the advertising proportion that flows back to you.

1056 MR. SANMUGA: If you want --

1057 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- from that broker's sales which could be a lot, which could be little, depending on his or her success.

1058 MR. SANMUGA: For the first ear, the total amount that we have allocated is $249,000 out of the $992,000. This is based on the fact that we have already brokered an agreement with Filipino, Vietnamese, Iranian and Somalian communities at a rate of -- some of it is confidential, but I can tell you the rate later.

1059 THE CHAIRPERSON: These are estimates, of course, but perhaps following counsel's question, you could provide us with a breakdown of the 992 in year one and 1,100,000 of local sales plus 23,000 as between brokerage and advertising. Is that possible?

1060 MR. SANMUGA: Yes. We should be able to give you a full breakdown of it.

1061 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because the way I understand it you could sell the block and that person may be out, they may not sell enough advertising potentially to get their money back, but you will get that money up front, at a minimum, and if that person is very successful then you get a percentage of what they sell. Correct?

1062 MR. SANMUGA: Yes, that's right.

1063 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you will break down for counsel those numbers into estimated brokered time and estimate sales time, most of which will come from the broker anyway.

1064 MR. SANMUGA: Actually we did the financial in a really detailed format, so I will be more than happy to provide it at the end of the hearing or later on.

1065 THE CHAIRPERSON: I realize, but now that the question has been asked, it would be nice to get an answer.

1066 MR. NADARAJAH: Sure, we will provide that.

1067 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Simply break down what you estimate it will be between the two. In a sense it has a bit of -- if you broker, of course, then the risk is more the broker's than yours, at least for an initial period until instead of brokering you break up the relationship.

1068 Thank you very much. I think these are my questions.

1069 MR. STEWART: With your permission, madame la présidente. Would you be in a position to provide that information by the time of your appearance during the Phase II phase of this hearing starts?

1070 MR. NADARAJAH: Yes, we should be able to provide that before the Phase II.

1071 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

1072 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now that that question has been asked, perhaps others who have a large amount of brokerage can, if they have made this calculation, be in a position to tell us how they divide it in between --

1073 It has some value in estimating the reasonableness of the projections and the risk.

1074 Thank you very much.

1075 MR. NADARAJAH: Thank you.

1076 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a well-deserved 15-minute break and come back for the third applicant. We will then adjourn after we hear the third one.

--- Upon recessing at 1550 / Suspension à 1550

--- Upon resuming at 1610 / Reprise à 1610

1077 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

1078 Mr. Secretary, please.

1079 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

1080 Item 3 on the agenda is an application by the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation for a licence to operate a commercial FM ethnic radio station in Toronto.

1081 This station also would operate on frequency 101.3 MHz, Channel 267B1, with an effective radiated power of 440 watts.

1082 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Kandiah Sivasothy. I would ask him to introduce his colleagues.

1083 You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1084 MR. SIVASOTHY: Thank you.

1085 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, I am Kandiah Sivasothy, the President and CEO of the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation. CTBC operated a Tamil language SCMO radio station in Toronto for the past seven years.

1086 Joining me today are colleagues who have been loyal staff members at the station during those years and others who have joined with us in this application.

1087 Dr. Ralph Agard, operations manager for the proposed service; Suhanya Ketheeswaran, manager, community affairs programming; Michael Fockler, manager, broadcast development; Lankathas Pathmanathan, program director, news and current affairs.

1088 In the back row, Afsaneh Ahmadi, community broadcasting partner; Shantha Somaskanther, administration and program producer; Sockalingam Krishnalingam, vice-president; Paul Fockler, broadcast consultant; Rabendravarman Rajanathan, chartered accountant; Gordon Elder, technical adviser; Thomas Notzl, solicitor.

1089 Madam Chair, before I proceed I would like to say that all of us here today congratulate the CRTC and Industry Canada for the efficient manner in which you responded to the needs of Toronto's ethnic community by issuing this call for applications. We thank you.

1090 In the next few minutes we will tell you who we are, and then we will proceed to tell you what we promise to do with our New FM station.

1091 We will then conclude our presentation with ten reasons why we feel this application should be approved.

1092 This display you see before us defines our multilingual application today. Many different languages and groups coming together to provide quality broadcasting to some of the underserved visible minority ethnic communities in the GTA.

1093 I believe we have representatives from these groups here today. We refer to them as our broadcast partners.

1094 Today is a great day for us at the CTBC. We are very proud of our application. The opportunity to appear here has been our vision for many years. It culminates my 25 years of international broadcasting and 11 years as a Canadian broadcaster.

1095 Mine is a true Canadian immigrant story. I started small in 1991. I consistently worked on my vision until I finally reached my goals. I started in Canadian radio with a one-hour program in Tamil on CHWO in Oakville. That program evolved into the CTBC with seven years of successful operation of our Toronto SCMO facilities on CFMX-FM.

1096 Ours is a fully operational service. We have 24-hour programming, studios, business offices and staff.

1097 MS KETHEESWARAN: Our SCMO has overwhelming community support and has provided service to a loyal listenership for the past seven years. Perhaps you noticed that we received thousands of letters of support and, to the best of our knowledge, not a single intervention against our application.

1098 With our Internet broadcasting capability, CBTC has the largest Tamil language system in the world. This experience and strength in Canadian broadcasting is the launching pad for our proposed use of 101.3 FM.

1099 The New FM will operate from studios in downtown Toronto, sharing office and studio facilities with our highly successful SCMO radio service.

1100 Members of the Commission, we have stated in our application that should we receive regulatory approval, we will continue our SCMO radio station for those who purchased the special radio receivers required. There will not be any duplication or simulcasting of the existing SCMO service on the New FM. But now it is time to move on from our SCMO radio station and provide over-the-air ethnic language service to not only the Tamil community, but to many other underserved language groups as well.

1101 MR. M. FOCKLER: Madam Chair, financially the Commission will note Mr. Kandiah has committed personal funds to the New FM station and also has a partner making a substantial personal commitment.

1102 Should the New FM station require additional operating funds in the future, both Mr. Kandiah and his partner are prepared to contribute the necessary funds.

1103 Madam Chair, we have submitted to you a very modest yet practical financial forecast and business plan based on our seven years' experience operating the SCMO.

1104 Advertising revenue will be generated by our own sales staff, with additional revenue derived from the blocks of time allocated to the various language groups. All other operating expenses are in line with the generally accepted broadcast expense items.

1105 We expect to hire an additional 15 fulltime employees.

1106 Our business plan for the New FM looks forward to a new multi-ethnic radio station that will be a benefit to the business community through the advertising and inter-ethnic networking that it will provide.

1107 The language groups we propose are in need of an over-the-air radio station to promote and advertise their services and products.

1108 Our application for a New FM provides a nice fit to our SCMO service. There are many obvious synergies. Music and production libraries, news services and technical and administrative support are just some examples.

1109 Our offices and studios are in place and ready to expand.

1110 With the approval of this application, CTBC will be in a position to diversify its operation and therefore continue to provide 24-hour Tamil language broadcasting in the future on the SCMO.

1111 The combining of our existing SCMO and the proposed new service will help ensure the viability of the new FM. We view this application very seriously, because it will not only augment our present SCMO operation but it will allow more ethnic voices in the GTA.

1112 In fact, the introduction of a New FM frequency in Toronto brings with it the prospect of two additional SCMO subcarriers capable of carrying two more signals. Should this application be approved, CTBC assures the Commission it will not bring forward an application for licensing its subcarriers unless it represents another underserved ethnic group or groups in the GTA. In other words, two more subcarriers will now be made available for ethnic broadcasting in Toronto.

1113 To summarize this application in one sentence, we want to provide high quality ethnic language service in 13 distinct languages to 25 ethnocultural groups. That is who we are.

1114 We believe, however, that what this hearing and what our application is all about is programming, programming, programming.

1115 To assist us is Dr. Ralph Agard, who has worked with us to identify the languages and the ethnocultural groups we represent today.

1116 DR. AGARD: Madam Chair, CTBC has committed to a minimum of 13 languages representing 25 ethnic groups. The language groups were determined by evaluating data provided by the Commission, information from Statistics Canada, our own analysis of the ethnic radio service in the GTA and our experience in the market.

1117 As you know, yesterday's statistical estimates are redundant today. In the final analysis, after seven years with our SCMO stations, we did not let all the market research overrule our instincts regarding our choices.

1118 We believe we have selected wisely and produced an exceptional program schedule, reflecting not only the Tamil community but also 12 other underserved groups in the GTA. The language groups selected and the communities to be served are the best fit with the need now and into the immediate future.

1119 We respectfully submit that our application goes a long way to bridging that gap and filling the need of providing radio service to the underserved ethnic communities in Toronto.

1120 This application does not, however, claim to be all things to all people. Here is our news and current affairs man, who will describe the New FM: what it will be and how it was done.

1121 MR. PATHMANATHAN: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, we envision the New FM will be programmed in a consistent and easily identifiable way. You will note our program schedule remains the same for each day so that the various language groups will easily find their own programs day in, day out.

1122 The weekends are designed to accommodate programs of shorter duration.

1123 Further, it is intended that virtually all programs will follow much the same format, regardless of language. Each program will have a minimum of 20 per cent spoken word content and a minimum of 10 per cent Canadian content in our musical selections.

1124 The New FM will be original. The New FM will respect the intelligence of our audience, and the New FM will cultivate the natural talent in the ethnic community.

1125 For example, these three standards of excellence -- originality, respect for the audience and rewarding of talent -- can be found in our Canadian Talent Development Benefit Package, totalling $385,000, one of the most generous amongst all applicants.

1126 Along the same lines, when you examine our total operating expenses our application has allocated the highest percentage of expenditures where it really matters: programming. More than 46 per cent of our total operating expense is targeted at programming.

1127 When you include our commitment to Canadian Talent Development, our overall application to programming, our overall allocation to programming increases to 52.5 per cent of our total annual operating expense. I believe this is the highest allocation of all the applicants. In other words, our priorities are focused on programming.

1128 DR. AGARD: How are we going to accomplish the task of representing 13 language groups? The answer lies in the men and women from these groups who will be joining the New FM as our broadcast partners. We have met with all of the broadcast partners, and we have in our file written signed agreements that relate directly to the program schedule in our application.

1129 In this regard, the New FM will be guided by the CRTC's Industry Code for Brokerage.

1130 Our broadcast partners have agreed to produce ethno-specific programming on CTBC's New FM station. In return, the New FM will provide studio time, production, editorial support and technical assistance for producing their programs.

1131 Each broadcast partner is responsible for acquiring advertising revenue for their particular program segment.

1132 MR. PARAMANATHAN: The New FM will reflect local issues and concerns through a comprehensive schedule of news and public affairs programming. The spoken word requirement for all programming in the program schedule will be a minimum of 20 per cent. This minimum level of spoken word content will assure that each language group will have ample opportunity to communicate the issues of the day and relate them to their own specific audience.

1133 For example, the centrepiece of our programming strategy is our commitment to feature four hours each day of English news and public affairs programming targeted at all of our ethnic communities.

1134 We will continue our working relationship with several leading news services we currently have with our SCMO. Our numerous broadcast partners will also provide an extended pool of news and information to their particular audience.

1135 MS KETHEESWARAN: Our program schedule also includes a wide variety of informational programming. For example, of particular interest to youth will be a one-hour weekly program entitled "Youth Beat" which will focus on empowering, educating and celebrating young visible minorities.

1136 Another program that is planned will be of interest to women. Two hours every Sunday we will invite and encourage women to speak out on a wide range of issues from housekeeping and parenting to employment, gender discrimination and domestic abuse. It will also provide education and information about ethnic community services that are available to women and highlight the successes of visible minority women in the GTA.

1137 In the future, should we receive a favourable decision, many of our senior staff members who are here today will assume responsibility for such important assignments as employment equity, the community advisory committee, compliance with the broadcast rules and regulations and industry codes.

1138 For example, Shantha Somaskanther, who has been with the SCMO station from the very beginning, will file an annual progress report to the Commission summarizing the community activities and highlights of the New FM station as one of her responsibilities.

1139 Krishnalingam, who has also been with the SCMO for the past seven years, will be assuming responsibility for many of the administrative and regulatory duties at the New FM.

1140 Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, all of us associated with this application understand that many of these responsibilities will be a condition of licence and the President, Mr. Kandiah, will personally ensure that they are enforced and carried out.

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1141 MR. M. FOCKLER: Members of the Commission, I would like to summarize this application by the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation by giving you ten reasons why this application for a new FM station in Toronto should be approved.

"1. In the last seven years CTBC has kept its promise to the ethnic community, operating an SCMO radio station 24 hours a day in the GTA, trouble-free.

2. We have the experience, human resources and expertise, and should the need arise we have the commitment of experienced Canadian broadcasters to assist us in the future.

3. We have the financial resources to meet the commitments and benefits proposed. We have ample additional funding available should it be required. The Commission should have no concern with respect to the availability or the adequacy of the financing.

4. CTBC has office and studio space available adjacent to the existing SCMO studios. Significant synergistic benefits will be created with the combined resources of our SCMO and the New FM.

5. CTBC neither filed nor received any direct opposing interventions. However, we were fortunate to receive overwhelming support and respect from a wide area of the community.

6. This application presents a solid business plan and program schedule to add 126 new hours of ethnic programming to Toronto's large ethnocultural population. In this regard, the New FM station poses no threat to the existing ethnic and SCMO stations in Toronto.

7. CTBC has one of the highest commitments of all applicants to Canadian Talent Development -- $385,000 over seven years. Overall, CTBC's operating budget allocates 52.5 per cent to programming -- the highest commitment to programming of any applicant.

8. CTBC has the highest commitment of all applicants to spoken word content, with a minimum of 20 per cent in each program. CTBC also has a minimum commitment of 10 per cent of all musical selections to Canadian content.

9. Programming! We believe that in the final analysis it is the programming and 20 per cent spoken word content that counts.

10. As a condition of licence, CTBC is unequivocally committed to providing service to the 13 languages and 25 ethnic groups in this application. CTBC will not modify this list in any way."

1142 With the last word now, here is our President.

1143 MR. SIVASOTHY: Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, this application proposes a significant addition to the diversity of voices and to the ethnic broadcasting capability in the GTA.

1144 The Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation is a new entrant in the commercial radio industry. We are not part of a larger group. We are not associated with any other broadcasting group. We are independent and we stand alone.

1145 Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I promise to make a difference to the ethnic radio community and to the Canadian broadcast system. I will not disappoint you. I will make you proud of the confidence you will place in me.

1146 Thank you.

1147 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and welcome, Mr. Sivasothy.

1148 Commissioner Noël, please.

1149 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Bon après-midi. Don't worry, I will ask my questions in English. I don't think the translator will be very happy if I start in French.

1150 I will ask a number of questions in different areas and I will just list those areas of questioning so that you are aware of where I am going.

1151 You have mentioned 13 languages in 25 ethnic groups. I will ask you to comment on that. We would like to try to understand why some ethnic groups are counted more than once.

1152 I will ask you questions about the level of ethnic inter-language programming.

1153 I will question you on your Canadian Talent Development undertakings.

1154 I will have some questions concerning the programming.

1155 I will have questions concerning your choice of Tamil as the largest group that you will -- the largest number of hours that you will broadcast to.

1156 I will ask you a number of questions on the impact on existing stations.

1157 I will also ask you questions on the synergies that you think will derive from your association with the SCMO.

1158 Finally, I will give you an opportunity to tell us why 101.3 is the best frequency and you can make the best use of it.

1159 So let's start with the distinction you make between the 25 ethnic groups and the 13 languages.

1160 We noticed in your application by counting that, for instance, you have counted Indian four times in the ethnic groups and we would like to understand what is your philosophy behind the way you have built your application. Why do you talk of 25 ethnic groups and 13 languages?

1161 DR. AGARD: Commissioner, we built the application within the spirit of the ethnic broadcasting policy and we recognized that in its spirit of serving as many cultural groups of possible that one needed to be as clear in its definition as over the years the Commission has licensed ethnic stations primarily by language. Today, many years later, we understand that within the Greater Toronto Area communities and cultural groups, we have more of a crucible of information than simply language.

1162 For example, if we take the Tamil language, we recognize that there are several different cultural groupings, or ethno-cultural groups who speak Tamil -- Tamil is simply a language -- but the cultural idiosyncrasies and the cultural differences abound. They exist. Therefore, in terms of making our programming very appropriate culturally sensitive and culturally appropriate we preferred to identify those unique cultural groups that speak those languages.

1163 COMMISSIONER NOËL: A bit like French.

1164 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1165 COMMISSIONER NOËL: The French we speak in Quebec and the culture of the guys on the other side of the Atlantic is a bit different.

1166 DR. AGARD: Correct. And I understand it is also different in Haiti in the Caribbean French.

1167 So we thought that the time had come when in terms of programming that we recognized those distinctions, and that is what we have identified. As we go down the list of languages, then we have the different cultural groups.

1168 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you very much. I think it explains it. At first sight you see 25 and 13.

1169 DR. AGARD: Yes. As a matter of fact, in our first submission we had 35.

1170 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That's right.

1171 DR. AGARD: What had happened there, we had counted every island in the Caribbean and then we realized that that was a stretch in some respects. So that is why we committed to 13 and 25.

1172 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. Now, when we assess an application we want to sometimes impose conditions of license that relate to the level of ethnic programming and third language programming. In your case, 100 per cent -- your commitment is to 100 per cent ethnic programming and at least 72 per cent of which would be in third language. Would you be prepared to adhere to a condition of license with those levels, i.e., 100 per cent of ethnic programming consisting of at least 72 per cent of third language?

1173 DR. AGARD: Yes, we would.

1174 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Which would leave 28 per cent in English.

1175 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1176 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

--- Pause

1177 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now we will tackle the Canadian Talent Development. You will excuse me if I am a little confused because there were different answers and different levels and different proportionment of money. So I will take you to your last answer, which was on June 25 I think, and we will go project-by-project.

1640

1178 MR. M. FOCKLER: Madam Commissioner, if I may clarify. What we have laid out in that deficiency letter that you speak of is what we are standing by and committing with.

1179 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So this is the final version of your CTD commitment?

1180 DR. AGARD: That is correct, yes.

1181 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. So if we take -- and I understand that there is one big change from the 17 June answer in as much as the initiative that was referred to as audio tapes and auditions has been completely deleted. Am I correct?

1182 MR. M. FOCKLER: I would have to refer that to our broadcast consultant.

1183 DR. AGARD: Yes, it is.

1184 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. And you have increased the e-access initiative by the amount that was devoted to the audio tape/auditions initiative?

1185 DR. AGARD: Correct, yes.

1186 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. So we are talking the same thing. So we are down to six initiatives.

1187 One of them is the CD-2000 project. It's the first one on your list. You are talking about $4,000 in musician fees. Studio time, you put an amount of $2,000 for studio time. Is that your own studio because in the previous letters it looked like it was your own studio. Is it still your own studio or is a rented studio?

1188 MS KETHEESWARAN: We actually made a change, Ms Commissioner, so that all recordings will be done at a third party recording facility.

1189 COMMISSIONER NOEL: It's a third party so the studio's time is rented from --

1190 MS KETHEESWARAN: Somebody else.

1191 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay. You are talking about $2,000 to production costs.

1192 Could you give us more details on what is included in those production costs and are these paid to third parties or is it all in-house costs?

1193 DR. AGARD: It is all out of studio.

1194 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It is all?

1195 DR. AGARD: It is all out of studio. So it is third parties.

1196 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It is all third party.

1197 I noticed that the amount involved for the CD production and distribution cost has decreased from $3,200 to $1,200. Is that a reasonable amount? I also notice that some money went to studio renting, so it is about equivalent. There is a $200 difference somewhere else that I noticed.

1198 DR. AGARD: We basically shifted those figures around because originally we were talking about in-studio and once we go third party we recognize that that cost would increase and we just moved that money around.

1199 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So there will be less money into the production of the CD per se.

1200 DR. AGARD: Right.

1201 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

1202 There is one thing, and it is still on page 4 of your last answer on June 25 and it was also in your letter of June 17. When you say that -- and I will quote from your answer:

"Most of these people will be or are about to be Canadian citizens, thus making this unique project an integral part of music that will grow and expand over the years and be consistent with the vision of the proposed station, that of facilitating integration into the mainstream of Canadian society."

1203 At page 4 of the letter of June 25, it's the one third paragraph from the top.

1204 DR. AGARD: Okay, I have it.

1205 COMMISSIONER NOEL: I am just picking over the words "will be or are about to be Canadian citizens". Could you explain what you mean by this statement? Can you tell us if you have a specific minimum percentage of Canadian artists that will be included on the CD and are they local artists because, you know --

1206 MR. M. FOCKLER: Commissioner, I can't speak to the immigration issue. However, the CRTC's definition of a Canadian is someone who has been -- in part, someone who has been in Canada as a primary resident for six months or more. We believe that in some communities that would apply and I would like to take Dr. Agard further on that, if I could, please.

1207 COMMISSIONER NOEL: The second part of my question was: Are they local artists or are you picking them from all over the country or are they local from Toronto?

1208 DR. AGARD: They are absolutely Toronto artists and one of the things that happens in our community -- that's the visible minority community -- is that there is a plethora of talented Canadian artists and soon to become Canadian artists. They are basically landed immigrants. That's basically how we get here and then it's a personal choice they make as they to along.

1209 But we are dedicated to developing the talent of local artists and giving them the airplay that they desperately need.

1210 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay. Now, we said the audio tape is --

1211 DR. AGARD: Gone.

1212 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Is gone. Let's look at the e-access initiative.

1213 In your previous submission, in the June 17th submission, you mentioned that the CD 2000 project was addressed to all the 13 languages as the e-access would be tweaked towards the 12 that will have left representation, ie. it would not be addressed to the Tamils, but in your June 25th submission you say it will be addressed to all 13 language groups.

1214 Could you explain why you changed the -- it is $5,000 more and that $5,000 is going to the Tamil community and the $10,000 remaining will go the other 12. Could you explain why you made the switch?

1215 DR. AGARD: Could you repeat the question, Commissioner, because I will have to find the previous letter?

1216 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Give me two seconds just to land back on my feet here.

1217 In your letter of June 17th, on page 4, the paragraph for e-access, you say:

"It is the intention of this application to serve 13 distinct language groups. The primary language of the station will be Tamil with approximately 72.23 per cent being comprised of 12 other distinct languages. While the CD 2000 project is directed at all ethnic group artists and performers, the e-access initiative has been created and designed to serve the specific requirements of the 12 other distinct language groups which have been identified with the applicant's proposed programming".

1218 On your June 25th letter, on page 4, paragraph 4, I will read:

"It is the intention of this application to serve 13 distinct language groups. The primary language of the station will be Tamil, with approximately 60.32 per cent..."

1219 And that's a decrease of 12 per cent, unless it's a typo:

"... being comprised of 12 other distinct languages. While the CD 2000 project is directed at all ethnic groups, artists and performers, the e-access initiative has been created and designed to serve the specific requirements of all 13 distinct language groups which have been identified with the applicant's proposed programming".

1220 Then you go on and say:

"Allocation will be approximately $5,000 for the Tamil-language group and the balance of $10,000 shared amongst the other ethnocultural groups".

1221 Could you explain why you shifted the tweaking of the e-access program from the 12 other groups to all the 13 groups?

1222 MR. P. FOCKLER: Commissioner, I wonder whether I might help on that. Any of the errors in this application are mine and mine alone, and the others are here to suffer through it all.

1223 When we had a look at the allocation of funds to this particular initiative, we wanted to ensure throughout the entire application that the allocation of funds and the emphasis was not entirely to the Tamil community. We wanted to take pains to point out that this is not a Tamil language application. This is a multicultural application for many underserved.

1224 Therefore, when we looked at the allocation of the dollars there, again we felt that was the strongest place to make our point and the $10,000 goes to the other underserved languages and the smaller amount, the third, goes to the Tamil language in this case.

1225 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And it's probably that in the original it was geared towards the Tamil community.

1226 MR. P. FOCKLER: Yes, and as I say, in that case I accept the responsibility for that, but we wanted to take pains to point out that it's not a Tamil language application.

1227 COMMISSIONER NOEL: But I am trying to understand the changes.

1228 MR. P. FOCKLER: Yes.

1229 COMMISSIONER NOEL: From the June 17th to the June 25th. Is it a typo when we are talking 72.23 per cent of the programming of the language being comprised of 12 other distinct languages, and on the June 25th it is dropped by roughly 12 per cent? I am talking page 4 of the two letters, the 17th of June and the 25th of June, where we say approximately 60.32 per cent. So there is a drop of 12 per cent which is not explained.

--- Pause

1230 COMMISSIONER NOEL: It's in the language, the percentage of language devoted to other languages as opposed to Tamil.

1231 DR. AGARD: I think that that came about because the letters -- I think you really note that in terms of our language groups we were working with the Farsi community and what we did at that point in time during the deficiency period is that we added Farsi by taking some hours away from the Tamil programming because the Farsi community assisted in our business plan because our Farsi broadcast partner already has an SCMO.

1232 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay, and that's what it reflects.

1233 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1234 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay because I couldn't understand the figures here.

1235 Again, I will ask you -- so there is $6,500 devoted to musician fees; $3,300 for studio time which is again third-party rented.

1236 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1237 COMMISSIONER NOEL: The production costs are consisting of what? The $3,000 of production costs.

1238 DR. AGARD: Those are associated with production of the CDs, design, covers, et cetera, et cetera.

1239 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And this is all money paid out to third parties.

1240 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1241 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And the CD itself, the pressing and distribution $2,200, that's also paid outside.

1242 DR. AGARD: That's right.

1243 COMMISSIONER NOEL: So all of the $15,000 is direct --

1244 DR. AGARD: Direct costs.

1245 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay.

1246 Is there a minimum of Canadian artists, be they Canadian citizens or landed immigrants, that will be part of that initiative, or do you have a percentage that you have established or is it --

1247 MR. M. FOCKLER: Commissioner, in the spirit of the Canadian Talent Development they will all be Canadian artists.

1248 COMMISSIONER NOEL: All Canadian artists. Thank you.

1249 Now, we will go to the recording of concerts and that hasn't changed in the two letters. It's a $5,000 commitment to record concerts in various ethnic communities.

1250 Could you provide us in writing, as an undertaking, details, cost breakdowns for this because we have no details whatsoever, so that we can determine if the costs are qualified as a direct contribution to the Canadian Talent Development?

1251 DR. AGARD: We will do that, sure.

1252 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Can you tell us how many concerts you have envisaged to record every year? Do you have a figure that is available to us?

1253 DR. AGARD: The CTVC has over the years had a variety of community and talent development experiences and we would commit to a minimum of one, in addition to whatever we currently do with the SCMO.

1254 Those are very well attended and with audiences as great as 20,000. So we have been there, we have done that, and we are going to do this one too.

1255 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Can you tell us approximately how many ethnic communities, different ethnic communities, do have those live concerts at the present time?

1256 DR. AGARD: I would say that all of our community broadcast partners have their own entertainment network, concerts on a regular basis, and we intend to have one as part of our Canadian Talent Development experience and exercise. That's the one that we were referring to because what we want to do with that is we want to mainstream. As you might recognize that one of the goals and objectives of our proposed service is really mainstreaming all of us into Canadian society.

1257 That's what we would like to use as a mass communication tool for --

1258 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Yes, I understand that you will do a minimum of one a year, but what I want to know is what is the availability, how many communities do have concerts that you could pick and choose from?

1655

1259 DR. AGARD: At least 20.

1260 COMMISSIONER NOEL: At least 20.

1261 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1262 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay. Now we will go to the next initiative which is your new talent concerts. This has not changed between the two letters, but I have some details that I would like to understand then. Maybe you could make an undertaking to send us a detailed breakdown of your costs, especially what you mean by "tax, pay and production costs".

1263 The tax is not third party, obviously, and what are the production costs and pay?

What do they cover? So if you could tell us and take an undertaking to provide us with a breakdown.

1264 DR. AGARD: We will do that.

1265 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Before the end of the hearing?

1266 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1267 COMMISSIONER NOEL: You talk to the Secretary. Okay?

1268 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1269 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Now, those new talent concerts, the proceeds will be used to purchase unique cultural musical instruments and then donated to an appropriate educational community group.

1270 What do you mean by "unique cultural musical instruments"? Is that a very special instrument that is not run of the mill type of saxophone or trombone or does it have another meaning?

1271 DR. AGARD: Correct. There are traditional music instruments in each of the ethnocultural groups. Some look like western instruments, but they have a very distinctive sound.

1272 I don't know if our community affairs person wants to add anything to that, but that is one of her areas of interest.

1273 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I understand that they are not easily accessible.

1274 DR. AGARD: That's right. As a matter of fact, one of the things we attempt to do is to make sure that they become part of the Canadian repertoire of instruments.

1275 Do you want to add anything?

1276 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could you tell us how you will determine which educational or community group will be the recipient of these instruments?

1277 DR. AGARD: We plan to do that on a rotational basis from each of our community broadcast partners, because the instruments really and truly are unique to those communities.

1278 I think we should mention that CTBC has a long history of being very community oriented. These are minimum commitments to the kind of work that they have done in the years that have gone by.

1279 They have collected funds through their listeners for the Montreal storm. They have collected money through their listeners and donated it to the Red Cross.

1280 They have done a number of things in their own community. They have arranged special tours for their senior listeners who are normally homebound, as far as taking them to Vancouver.

1281 We think that they will be able to afford for all the good things that we do have as part of the process.

1282 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So there would be enough money generated by these concerts to provide instruments to every one of the groups --

1283 DR. AGARD: Correct. And if it is not there, we certainly have --

1284 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Maybe not all in the first year.

1285 DR. AGARD: Right. But I think as part of our public benefits commitment this is a minimum. We have over the years developed very strong community ties, and we are going to make sure that as we move from SGMO into FM service that the same applies.

1286 COMMISSIONER NOËL: After the first round of deficiencies, you have provided us with an alternate plan in case some of the CTDs were not recognized by the Commission as a direct commitment.

1287 Are you still ready, if for some reason or another this Commission decides not to recognize all or part of your CTD development plan, to reallocate the $55,000 a year over seven years to an alternate plan that would be acceptable to the Commission?

1288 MS KETHEESWARAN: Absolutely.

1289 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You described in your alternate plan scholarships and grants. You were indicating $4,000 scholarships or grants.

1290 How many scholarships or grants would the $4,000 a year undertaking cover? Would it be a one-shot deal, or would it be more than one scholarship or grant?

1291 DR. AGARD: I think when we discussed this we thought about allocating $1,000 as a scholarship.

1292 COMMISSIONER NOËL: One thousand dollars per scholarship, which would mean four scholarships.

1293 DR. AGARD: Four, yes.

1294 COMMISSIONER NOËL: How would the recipients be chosen? Would you have a panel to determine the winners or the recipients? How would it work?

1295 DR. AGARD: I have to be honest. We didn't get that far in our planning since we believed that our commitments were direct costs. But we do have an advisory committee.

1296 COMMISSIONER NOËL: If for one reason or another the Commission decides not to retain your original plan, do you undertake to have the whole amount of $55,000 a year reallocated to an acceptable plan?

1297 DR. AGARD: That is right.

1298 COMMISSIONER NOËL: You mentioned that those scholarships would be awarded to visible minority artists to attend formal training programs.

1299 Would the scholarships be offered only to artists from visible minorities, or would it be open?

1300 DR. AGARD: At this point in time, our plans are for visible minority talent. They need the opportunities, and that is what we are talking about.

1301 COMMISSIONER NOËL: When you are talking of visible minority, are we talking local Toronto people?

1302 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1303 COMMISSIONER NOËL: What kind of formal training are you looking at? Is it broadcasting courses or --

1304 DR. AGARD: I think we would like to do some things that are formal by way of community college, and as well there are some programs and broadcasting like the Ellen Bonner School of Communications, which is private but does a very good program in terms of on-air presence and those kinds of qualifications, but we intentionally said formal so that it is a recognizable institution.

1305 COMMISSIONER NOËL: We will leave the Canadian Talent Development for a while -- I think we will leave it for good -- and we will go to programming.

1306 In programming, I have a number of interrogations on the spoken word. I have a number of little papers here that are supposedly helping me find my way into my documents.

--- Pause

1307 COMMISSIONER NOEL: I will take you to page 14 of your -- you called it a different name. I call it a supplementary brief, but you called it an application for a licence -- it's the document that is next to your application actually, the supplementary brief at page 14 at the bottom.

1308 You say:

"To meet this commitment, the station will ensure that at least 25 per cent of its programming schedule features news, public affairs and enriched spoken word programming. The minimum level of spoken word content will provide assurances that each language group will have ample opportunity to communicate the issues of the day and relate them to their own culture and linguistic groups".

1309 Then I will take you to page 10 of your letter of June 17th, under the heading "Spoken Word Programming: Third Language", where you say:

"Third language spoken word programming content will be a minimum of 20 per cent of the allocated time in the weekly program schedule. The primary language grouping will be South Asian, featuring five distinct languages: Tamil, Farsi, Urdu, Sinhalese and Malayalam languages."

1310 Then under the community broadcast partners you also state -- and this is from the same page, on page 10:

"The spoken word content requirement for these programs..."

1311 These programs being third language other than Tamil language.

"...scheduled will be the same minimum 20 per cent of those of the South Asian language grouping." (As read)

1312 Do you follow me so far?

1313 MS KETHEESWARAN: Yes.

1314 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Then in accordance with the information contained in the letter, or so I understand, it would appear that all of the English language programs proposed -- and that is a total of 35 hours -- would be spoken word programs.

1315 MR. M. FOCKLER: That is correct.

1316 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That is correct. Which is a level of 27.8 per cent.

1317 Should we add all these percentages? Is this 20 per cent spoken word, or is it something like 47 per cent spoken word?

1318 MR. M. FOCKLER: Commissioner, we are going toward local issues and concerns in the Toronto ethnic market. As such, we have committed as a condition of licence to 20 per cent spoken word across every program block that we have.

1319 The four English blocks that we are programming per day are virtually 100 per cent spoken word programming.

1710

1320 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Overall, the spoken word programming is much higher than 20 per cent, much, much higher. It is more like --

1321 DR. AGARD: I think it is about 37 per cent.

1322 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thirty-seven per cent?

1323 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1710

1324 COMMISSIONER NOËL: All right. Could you describe for us what kind of programming you will have -- and I am always speaking of spoken words -- for third language programming? What kind of programming will it be?

1325 MS KETHEESWARAN: Our third language spoken programming will basically essentially be public affairs programming. That public affairs programming can be divided into either intercultural programming and cross-cultural programming. I think the distinction between the two is very important, because they serve very separate purposes.

1326 Intercultural programming in a sense brings communities together to discuss issues that are of common concern to all of them; so to discuss challenges that they all face and to collectively arrive at a resolution for those challenges.

1327 Cross-cultural programming, on the other hand, is built on the principles of true community building. We feel that community building requires (a) contact and (b) education.

1328 With our cross-cultural programming, first of all we meet the first requirement by bringing both cultural groups together in discussion. So we are fulfilling the requirement for contact.

1329 Because cross-culture in programming in essence requires different cultural groups to educate each other about their cultural differences, about their belief systems, about the perspective to be attached to certain issues, we feel that it will truly educate the communities and foster good interaction in community building.

1330 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

1331 On page 11 of your answer of June 17th you mention that you will air 60 90-second features known as Solutions. That would cover all topics of topics: taxation, child rearing, et cetera.

1332 But you also state -- and I will quote you. It says in the second paragraph at the bottom:

"Where possible, Solutions' content will be translated into third language programming and aired in each third language program spoken word segment of the weekly schedule." (As read)

1333 Do you plan to translate any other of your English language programming into third language, or would that be the only one that would be translated?

1334 MS KETHEESWARAN: Madam Commissioner, we mentioned that in reciprocating, the fact that our community broadcast partners will be producing ethno-specific programming on our station, we will in turn provide support basically, and that includes programming leads. As such, we will make our transcripts available to them so that in the case that they want to translate it, they can do that.

1335 COMMISSIONER NOËL: But you don't have plans to translate.

1336 MS KETHEESWARAN: We will not be doing the translating. We will make it available to our broadcast partners, however.

1337 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you have an idea of the number of hours that could mean over the 60 times 90-second?

1338 DR. AGARD: I would assume that if we take each programming block, we would have an additional 12 times 90 seconds.

1339 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Twelve times 90 seconds.

1340 DR. AGARD: Per week. I should also add that we intend to repeat those throughout the program schedule so that in effect, in terms of developing, we are very confident that they will be translated into third language. Once we go through 126-hour block of programming, they would be translated.

1341 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And that would be once translated in addition to the 20 per cent spoken words minimum.

1342 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1343 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. Now we will turn to local versus non-local programming. When I say "local" I mean Greater Toronto. Okay.

1344 What would be the minimum percentage of locally produced programming that you would be prepared to broadcast?

1345 MR. M. FOCKLER: Commissioner, we are prepared to broadcast virtually all of our programming developed in-house and locally. By "virtually" I am referring to just a rough figure of 95 per cent. We are reserving the right to broadcast special programming from time to time from foreign services.

1346 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. When you say "developed in-house", are you talking about the programming that you will produce yourself or does it include your brokered --

1347 MR. M. FOCKLER: No. We are speaking to both, because our broadcast partners will work in conjunction with the staff of CTBC to develop their brokered programming.

1348 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So when you talk in-house, it is all the programming done by yourself or by your brokerage programmers.

1349 MR. M. FOCKLER: That is correct.

1350 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay.

1351 MS KETHEESWARAN: Madam Commissioner, if I could just add, I think it is important to mention that while 60 per cent of our news programming will focus on local issues and events that are currently occurring in the GTA, even when we are talking about issues that are happening regionally, nationally or internationally, we will focus on the relevance that those events will have to the local public and sort of the daily affects that they will have on peoples lives.

1352 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So we are talking 90 per cent to 95 per cent locally for news programming.

1353 MS KETHEESWARAN: That is right.

1354 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That is the answer I was looking for. Okay.

1355 Do you have an idea of where the balance of 5 per cent to 10 per cent would come from?

1356 MR. M. FOCKLER: We leave that open, Commissioner, as a suggestion. Just as an off the top of my head example, perhaps an international sporting event that may be of interest to our listeners or elections or some other important social or --

1357 COMMISSIONER NOËL: The next round of the soccer game.

--- Laughter / Rires

1358 MR. M. FOCKLER: Something just like that. That is correct, Commissioner.

1359 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I remember a hearing in Montreal where there was the previous soccer and at some point in time the room was empty. We were all sitting there waiting. Everybody, all the competing applicants were just riveted to the screen.

1360 As we say in French, "On ne peut pas empêcher un coeur d'aimer".

1361 Okay. Now, I think you have probably answered this question, but I will ask it just for the record.

1362 When you are talking of your community broadcast partners, are we correct in assuming that these programs will be brokered programs?

1363 DR. AGARD: Yes, they are.

1364 I think we would like to add one thing and that is the accountability with respect to that programming. We take responsibility for that and our broadcast partners have all signed an agreement with respect to maintaining the CRTC requirements and they also form part of a news team with regular integrated programming in design and development.

1365 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Other than your Tamil-language programming, are the community broadcast partners be responsible for producing all other third language, ie. the 12 other languages?

1366 DR. AGARD: Everything except that English spoken word block.

1367 COMMISSIONER NOEL: English and --

1368 DR. AGARD: And Tamil.

1369 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And Tamil. So the English and Tamil will be station produced.

1370 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1371 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Now, let's go to page 9 of your letter of June 17th.

--- Pause

1372 COMMISSIONER NOEL: We are going to talk about the news.

1373 You see at the second paragraph, page 9 of your letter of June 17th, you see on page 9, second paragraph:

"Local news will constitute at least 60 per cent of the stories aired in each newscast, with the remainder split between regional, national, and international news, which is tailored to the interests of the ethnocultural groups comprising the station's primary audience."

1374 You say that 60 per cent will be devoted to local stories. Will there be any newscasts presented during the third language time block as well?

1375 MR. PATHMANATHAN: Yes, there will be.

1376 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Yes?

1377 MR. PATHMANATHAN: Yes.

1378 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. Could you tell us in what amount?

1379 MR. PATHMANATHAN: Well, Commissioner, the news has a particular style, approach that CTBC is going to be taking. Seven to 8:00 morning hours will be the English hours that the news team will develop a core news package that they will update as the day goes along.

1380 Seven to 8:00 is our first English hour. Then we have another English hour, 12:00 to 1:00 during the lunch hours, 4:00 to 5:00 during the driving hours, and 8:00 to 9:00 at night. So the news team will develop the news package during the 7:00 to 8:00 hours and they will update as the day goes along.

1381 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. But in third language, will you have newscasts in third language as well?

1382 MR. PATHMANATHAN: Yes.

1383 DR. AGARD: Yes. Essentially it would be news briefs of the same news package. So even where there is programming that is simply one hour, they will use the updated news briefs in third language

1384 COMMISSIONER NOËL: That news brief will be station --

1385 DR. AGARD: Station produced.

1386 COMMISSIONER NOËL: -- station produced, as opposed to brokerage programming?

1387 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1388 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. What percentage of those news briefs in the third languages would be devoted to local stories?

1389 DR. AGARD: I would think that in general we are talking about 75 per cent.

1390 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Seventy-five per cent.

1391 DR. AGARD: Yes. And even if we are taking say regional or national stories, what we intend to do is to find the roster of local talent to give in-depth colour and coverage. So we will still have a local angle.

1392 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Okay. Are there specific hours that will be broadcasted during the broadcast day? I understand that the English news is a very identified time slot in your schedule. What about the third language news briefs? Will they have specific hours?

1393 DR. AGARD: At the onset of each program.

1394 COMMISSIONER NOËL: At the onset of each program. Okay.

1395 Another question that has been brought is the question of open-line programming. This is something that we are always a little wary of. You describe that you will have in your spoken word programming some open-line programming or interactive segments. There is also another program on Sunday afternoon dedicated to visible minority women that would have phone-in segments.

1396 I would like to know if you are well aware of the requirements with respect to abuses, common balance and high standard that are set in the Broadcasting Act and the regulations.

1397 MR. M. FOCKLER: Madam Chair, we have read and reviewed the CBA Act, the CRTC's code on open-line programming. As well, our senior staff, all of our staff members are familiar with the CAB Code of Ethics and Radio-Television News Directors and Broadcast Standards Council and we do have senior staff members who are in position to enforce those, should it be necessary.

1398 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you have specific guidelines, internal guidelines, policies or other mechanism in place in order to respect the conduct for open line? Do you have internal policies that are in existence?

1399 DR. AGARD: Yes. We do have it now, as well as we have the technical requirements for on-air call-in shows.

1400 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could you please provide us with the details, if you have any details, of your procedures, internal procedures, and your technical -- I know there are things that, you know, delay --

1401 MR. SIVASOTHY: For the past seven years that we running a SCMO radio, we have call screening and delayed transfers and delayed time. We have a lot of experience about that.

1402 COMMISSIONER NOËL: So could you just undertake to give us details of what mechanisms you have in place so far?

1403 MR. SIVASOTHY: For sure.

1404 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

1405 Now, music. Is there any space left in your programming list for music? I am teasing you.

--- Laughter / Rires

1406 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could you give us a bit more of a flavour of your musical programming, because your application was quite silent on that. So you have the floor to enlighten us on what your musical programming will be.

1407 DR. AGARD: I think the reason we smile is because among ourselves we always say that visible minority people love to talk. There is one thing that we do very well is talk. That is reflected a bit perhaps in our planning.

1408 CTBC has delivered music, particularly Tamil music over the last seven years and there is a large repertoire of music available in the Tamil language. As well, they have developed Canadian talent over that extended period of time by making the studio available, et cetera. That is how we drifted into those indirect cost things. So the music is well in hand in terms of its community talent as well as others.

1409 All of the other, including the Caribbean and Guyanese communities, have a wealth of music available, including our Spanish broadcast partner. So I think that most of our music would fall into Category 3.

1410 I don't know if anybody else has anything to add about the music selection, but that is where we think it is. There will be a mix of varying languages and beautiful sounds.

1411 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Do you have a music list of some sort that we can look at?

1412 DR. AGARD: Yes. We have primarily a Tamil playlist at this time, which we could produce. We have also communicated with our broadcast partners, so we will definitely be able to produce the Tamil playlist. We will be able to produce it to show some from the other communities.

1413 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Could you undertake to furnish up whatever is available?

1414 DR. AGARD: For sure.

1415 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Before the end of the hearing.

1416 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1417 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Thank you.

1418 Let's move to why you picked the Tamil community as the one who should get the most attention from your broadcast undertaking if we decide to give you a licence.

1725

1419 Your proposal basically is to provide 50 hours of Tamil programming. We will tackle the second largest group too, 14 hours of Farsi programming.

1420 I am looking at Appendix 1 to your letter of June 25, the last one that you sent us. At Appendix 1 -- I will show you. That's right -- it says:

"Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation ratio of ethnic programming hours to ethnic population in Greater Toronto Area." (As read)

1421 There is a part of the schedule that is above the line, or overserved population, and then there is a part that is under the line to the right-hand side of the graph for the underserved population.

1422 Well, I see that the Tamil is on the left-hand side marginally above the line. I have no problem with the Farsi because it is definitely under the line.

1423 So could you tell me why we should licence you to offer an additional 50 hours of programming in Tamil, while, according to our statistics there are already 43 hours of Tamil programming available over the air and that is not counting the SCMO stations.

1424 DR. AGARD: Let me tell you what it is. It basically has the demographic details for how we got this grant. So it has the numbers in terms of --

1425 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Could you provide us with a copy of that, or maybe it's only my copy that the page was skipped because if I had had some explanations, I wouldn't have asked the question.

1426 DR. AGARD: I know.

1427 COMMISSIONER NOEL: My next page is your undertaking by First Canadian Place.

--- Pause

1428 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Thank you.

1429 DR. AGARD: You would note that the asterisk says that the high Tamil programming -- it's the very last paragraph.

1430 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Yes, and that is part of the answer I heard earlier when I asked the question.

1431 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1432 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Forty-two hours between midnight and 6:00 a.m.

1433 DR. AGARD: Correct, and that's partly one of the reasons why we have offered the Commission that we will consider as a condition of licence that we remain with the language groups that we have. You know, our experience has been that as we even tried to verify the hours over the year, we had difficulty in getting up-to-date schedules.

1434 Some of those hours change around. They are not really during the broadcast day and we think that we would like to be the next ethnic station and complement the existing repertoire and stay true to the languages that we come here and say that we are prepared to deliver.

1435 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And you want a broadcast day and not a broadcast night.

1436 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1437 COMMISSIONER NOEL: While I am at it, maybe you can correct my other assumption that there were four SCMO broadcasting in Tamil and your documents refer to three, and I heard three earlier on. So can you give me the explanation for that discrepancy between our records and --

1438 DR. AGARD: Sure. I think I would ask our CEO to clarify that since he has been in the SCMO Tamil business seven years.

--- Pause

1439 MR. SIVASOTHY: In Canada, a few years ago, there were four SCMO radio and Tamil community. One is closed down. Unfortunately it's bad management, or I don't know why they did, but we have a potential in our community here in Toronto. We have right now three SCMOs.

1440 At the same time, we have a very good potential on the revenue from the Tamil community. I started in 1990 and one of the programs and I changed it to two hours. I don't have any tie to any of the ethnic radios, then I come to SCMO radio. When I started at SCMO the other three SCMOs started to work. They are doing good, but unfortunately one is gone.

1441 COMMISSIONER NOEL: We are getting near the end. The "supplice" is about to stop.

1442 DR. AGARD: Commissioner Noël, did we totally answer the question about why Tamil?

1443 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Not quite, and I was coming back to that.

1444 DR. AGARD: Okay. So I will wait until you get back to it.

--- Laughter / Rires

1445 COMMISSIONER NOEL: You know, we didn't know that it was nighttime airing, so we figured 43 hours why add to that? There is already a lot. Why not cater to underserved groups like Vietnamese, Filipino? Well, you have answered in part my question as far as Farsi is concerned because you are putting on an additional 14 hours of Farsi.

1446 So was there -- I understand that you are from a Tamil background -- not you, you.

--- Laughter / Rires

1447 COMMISSIONER NOEL: You are a different type of Tamil.

1448 MR. SIVASOTHY: We are a reincarnation.

--- Laughter / Rires

1449 DR. AGARD: You haven't asked the question yet, right Commissioner?

1450 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Pardon?

1451 DR. AGARD: You haven't asked the question. He was asking me if I could repeat the question, but --

1452 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Is one of the reasons -- your origin, you are a Tamil yourself so it's more accessible to you to work in your own language than to start a new station dedicated to another group. Is that one of the reasons that you are going after the Tamil population in terms of the number of hours that you want to devote? It's going to be your main language.

1453 MR. SIVASOTHY: We have the potential to get that revenue from the Tamil community. At the same time we can serve other communities who will join with us. That's why we selected another language from the underserved visible minority --

1454 COMMISSIONER NOEL: But you consider that the Tamil community as of now is underserved. It is not as shown on the graph. It is underserved.

1455 MR. SIVASOTHY: Yes, correct.

1456 DR. AGARD: The other reason is that, in keeping with the pattern of licensing ethnic stations, we recognize that one needs to have a good core community in language with all of the commercial-based to have -- so it is a key element of our business plan. We built our business plan from there because the SCMO experience is there and the language and knowledge is there, et cetera.

1457 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And it offers some cross-subsidization for the groups that have less marketing money.

1458 DR. AGARD: That's right.

1459 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Okay. I think this is yours. I wouldn't like to steal it from you so I will just put it there.

1460 One additional question. In view of the fact that, as was mentioned in some of the interventions and will be mentioned later on in the interventions, oral interventions, would you agree to have a condition of licence that at least 50 per cent of your ethnic programming would be directed to the Tamil and Farsi language?

1461 You would agree that 50 per cent of your --

1462 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1463 COMMISSIONER NOEL: As a condition of licence.

1464 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1465 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Which reflects your application at this time so that you would not for some commercial reason decide that the Tamil community is not good for commercial reasons and start to cater to Guadeloupe, people from the Guadeloupe in French.

1466 DR. AGARD: No.

1467 COMMISSIONER NOEL: No.

--- Laughter / Rires

1468 COMMISSIONER NOEL: What do you think your service, if we give you the licence, how do you think your service, which will offer an additional 50 hours of Tamil-language programming, how will it impact the stations that are already offering Tamil programming?

1469 MR. SIVASOTHY: It's not going to impact any of the existing radio stations, even the SCMO stations.

1470 COMMISSIONER NOEL: I didn't hear you.

1471 MR. SIVASOTHY: It's not going to impact any other existing station, even the SCMO stations because it's a different service. It's a multilingual application.

1472 COMMISSIONER NOEL: And probably it's not going to be broadcast at the same time --

1473 MR. SIVASOTHY: No.

1474 COMMISSIONER NOEL:  -- as the existing over-the-air service.

1740

1475 DR. AGARD: We believe that CTBC, through this application, is proposing to offer two distinct services, both of which would be appreciated by the Tamil community. The SCMO is a unilingual service. Its approaches toward cultural retention, language retention, and the FM service is its approaches to what is mainstreaming and integration.

1476 COMMISSIONER NOEL: So it's a complementary service.

1477 DR. AGARD: Yes.

1478 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Now, I will ask you -- you mention in your application, in your brief, in your supplementary brief, that there would be synergies available to CTBC through the combined operations of the SCMO service and the proposed new service.

1479 Could you emphasize a bit more -- you came back with that in your presentation, oral presentation. Could we have a bit more details of what you qualify as obvious synergies. You say music and production libraries, news service, technical and administrative support.

1480 Could you emphasize a bit more on what those synergies would be?

1481 MR. P. FOCKLER: I might be able to help on that, Commissioner, in view of the fact that I have worked with the Canadian Tamil Broadcasting Corporation for the last four or five years now on a temporary basis.

1482 I think the obvious synergies are there with the technical and the production and so on, but the thing that has impressed me most and what I think they are going to bring to this application more than any other factor are the human resources, the people that are involved with this organization now and will be in the future.

1483 These are the people that are here at the table with us and in the audience. Then to augment, not only, as I said earlier, the Tamil aspect of the application, but they will bring the human resources of the broadcast partners.

1484 Coming back specifically to the synergies relating to the personnel, many, many, many of the staff have been with Mr. Kandiah since the outset, seven, eight years ago when he started his original SCMO station.

1485 They are dedicated, they are hard working, and I believe the synergies will translate in the future to the new staff members and 15 new people that will come on as a result of the approval of this application.

1486 That's where really the word "synergies" I think means the most in this particular application. Of course, there will be the other aspects, the music and the production and the studios and the reception, the bookkeeping, all of those factors will come into play, but the thing that has to impress us most would be the human resource aspect of it, the talent and the people and the dedication, and I think that's in evidence here today and in the number of interventions that we received in support.

1487 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Thank you.

1488 One of my last questions -- not my last question. I will ask the question that was asked by Mr. Colville to the preceding applicant. What do you think of the new licensing framework for specialty audio services? Would it be a suitable -- un véhicule. I'm looking for the English word -- suitable way of serving the Tamil population to use those specialty audio services?

1489 MR. P. FOCKLER: I think it's back to me again for just a moment. We have been working so diligently on the last few days on this application that we had an opportunity --

--- Pause

1490 MR. P. FOCKLER: Can you hear me now?

1491 COMMISSIONER NOEL: Yes.

1740

1492 MR. P. FOCKLER: We had an opportunity to review the document that was issued last Thursday, I believe it was. Frankly, we have reviewed it but we have not digested it yet.

1493 Having said that, we did have an opportunity to scan the broad outlines and the objectives of that particular document, and we think it is just fine; that any alternative to providing extended service to whether it is the ethnic community or any other type of broadcasting service I cannot, in my vision, see why we would want to oppose it or criticize it at this stage.

1494 COMMISSIONER NOËL: It is not in that spirit. Would it be applicable to you for your purposes?

1495 MR. P. FOCKLER: Obviously our first alternative and choice would be the over-the-air conventional broadcasting at this point in time. But four, five, ten years from now it may be just wonderful for many ethnic groups when the whole document has a chance to be digested properly. I, frankly, can't comment beyond that.

1496 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And the last, last, last FM frequency in the Toronto area is given away. It is always the last frequency in Toronto.

1497 MR. P. FOCKLER: Correct.

1498 COMMISSIONER NOËL: Finally, this is my last question. The ball is in your camp to tell us why you and why on 101.3.

1499 DR. AGARD: Members of the Commission, Madam Chair, because of the ten reasons again.

1500 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I thought so.

1501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Has no one escalated it to 20?

1502 DR. AGARD: Apart from those ten reasons -- and hopefully when you sit to write your decision you will go back to those ten reasons. Apart from that, we think that this is an application whose time has come.

1503 In the Greater Toronto area, we have varying statistics but some say it is 45 per cent, some say it is 50 per cent. They all recognize that a significant demographic proportion of the Greater Toronto Area are visible minority Canadians. When it comes to over-the-air service, it really is not there.

1504 There are some. The Chinese community certainly has its capabilities, but this application, when you take a look at the over-the-air already existing services, we fill that gap by the languages that we serve.

1505 If we get back to the ethnic broadcast objectives of the Broadcasting Act, the third objective in particular, the ethnic broadcasting policy, we have selected communities who would not in the immediate future find themselves on air.

1506 We have a good business plan. Our projections are conservative. We are not here to over project. We have used the demographics according to StatsCan, and we believe that we are ready to go on air, and we are ready to assist the Commission through the use of the ethnic broadcasting policy to put another 126 hours of new ethnic programming on air.

1507 COMMISSIONER NOËL: And you are sure you don't want to repeat the ten reasons?

1508 DR. AGARD: Okay. Let me read it into the record.

1509 Commissioners, we believe that there are ten reasons.

1. In the last seven years CTBC has kept its promise to the ethnic community, operating an SCMO radio station 24 hours a day in the GTA, trouble-free.

2. We have the experience, human resources and expertise, and should the need arise we have the commitment of experienced Canadian broadcasters to assist us in the future.

3. We have the financial resources to meet the commitments and benefits proposed. We have ample additional funding available should it be required. The Commission should have no concern with respect to the availability or the adequacy of the financing.

4. CTBC has office and studio space available adjacent to the existing SCMO studios. Significant synergistic benefits will be created with the combined resources of our SCMO and the New FM.

5. CTBC neither filed nor received any direct opposing interventions. However, we were fortunate to receive overwhelming support and respect from a wide area of the community.

6. This application presents a solid business plan and program schedule to add 126 new hours of ethnic programming to Toronto's large ethnocultural population. In this regard, the New FM station poses no threat to the existing ethnic and SCMO stations in Toronto.

7. CTBC has one of the highest commitments of all applicants to Canadian Talent Development -- $385,000 over seven years. Overall, CTBC's operating budget allocates 52.5 per cent to programming -- the highest commitment to programming of any applicant.

8. CTBC has the highest commitment of all applicants to spoken word content, with a minimum of 20 per cent in each program. CTBC also has a minimum commitment of 10 per cent of all musical selections to Canadian content.

9. Programming! We believe that in the final analysis it is the programming and 20 per cent spoken word content that counts.

10. As a condition of licence, CTBC is unequivocally committed to providing service to the 13 languages and 25 ethnic groups in this application. CTBC will not modify this list in any way.

1510 COMMISSIONER NOËL: I have no more questions, Madam Chair.

1511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. This should be a good test for the court reporter to see if the ten at the beginning are exactly the same as the ten at the end.

1512 This question of Tamil programming, it would appear that our 2001 monitoring report shows that CHKT-AM has 42 hours of Tamil. It looks like it is probably overnight, because it adds up to 126 plus 42.

1513 Do you know that this is still the case; that that 40 hours is after the broadcast day?

1514 DR. AGARD: Correct.

1515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to tell us on which stations -- there could be two on the same station -- the sideband is used for Tamil programming?

1516 It was clarified which one is not. Do you know which ones are used as sideband for Tamil, which station?

1517 DR. AGARD: 96.3 FM.

1518 MR. P. FOCKLER: If we could, Commissioner, I think that would be another case where we would --

1519 THE CHAIRPERSON: Since you know that one is no longer, I thought you would know which one has dropped it.

1520 I have a list here, but I want to see if it matches yours, and which one I am missing since there is only three.

1521 MR. P. FOCKLER: I don't believe we -- we will respond.

1522 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will have an opportunity to ask again, because we have another applicant who is offering South Asian programming.

1523 That's fine; thank you.

1524 Legal counsel?

1525 M^e STEWART: Merci, madame la présidente.

1526 Just two quick follow up questions. If I can bring you back to Canadian Talent Development, and in particular to the question of CDs. I think you said you would be producing three CDs on an annual basis flowing from the CD 2000 and e-access projects. Is that correct?

1527 MS KETHEESWARAN: Yes, that's correct.

1528 MR. STEWART: Now, in terms of the number of CDs to be pressed, are you in a position to provide the Commission with figures? You are you talking about three CDs. How many copies will be made for distribution?

1529 MR. M. FOCKLER: I believe we will begin by pressing approximately 1,000 CDs. We will 1,000 CD run. That will be going to distribution amongst the record companies, the cultural groups and provided to the artists for their own distribution as well.

1530 MR. STEWART: And you are comfortable with the budgeted amounts.

1531 MR. M. FOCKLER: Those budgeted amounts are minimum commitments that we have made. If we are required to exceed those, within reason we are prepared to do that.

1532 MR. STEWART: The figure of 1,000 copies is one that you are committed to?

1533 MR. M. FOCKLER: Yes, as a minimum.

1534 MR. STEWART: As a minimum. Not to belabour the point, but the amount that you budgeted would enable you to press 1,000 copies of each CD. Is that correct?

1535 MR. M. FOCKLER: I believe so, yes.

1536 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

1537 Can you give the Commission some idea of how many artists will be featured on the compilation CDs that we referred to?

1538 DR. AGARD: We guess there would be about 20 on each release, between 12 and 20.

1539 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

1540 I guess you were in the room when this question was posed to the previous applicant, and that is: Are you in a position to provide a breakdown between the brokerage revenues and the advertising revenues in terms of your financial forecast?

1541 DR. AGARD: I will ask our accountant to answer that question.

1542 MR. RAJANATHAN: Yes, we do have the breakdown, and we can provide a copy of that to the Commission.

1543 MR. STEWART: For the record, would those brokerage revenues be included in the local time sales item in your financial projections?

1544 MR. RAJANATHAN: Yes, that is correct.

1545 MR. STEWART: You have agreed to provide responses to a number of undertakings. It would be very helpful if you could file those with the Commission prior to Phase II of the proceeding, which will be starting some time next week.

1546 MR. P. FOCKLER: Counsel, I have kept a record today of the commitments we have made to you, and they will be delivered in a timely fashion.

1547 MR. STEWART: We have kept a record too. Let's hope the two lists coincide.

1548 Merci, madame la présidente. Ce sont mes questions.

1549 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sivasothy, and your colleagues. And thank you to everybody who was here and well behaved until this hour. We hope you have a lovely evening.

1550 We will see you at 8:30 tomorrow morning.

1551 MR. SIVASOTHY: Thank you very much for this opportunity. We appreciate it.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1800, to resume

on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 0830 /

L'audience est ajournée à 1800, pour reprendre le

mercredi 18 septembre 2002 à 0830

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