ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Gatineau, Quebec - 2002-05-10

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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

             RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757

HELD AT:                               TENUE À:

Conference Centre                      Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                             Portage IV
Outaouais Room                         Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                       Gatineau (Québec)

May 10, 2002                           Le 10 mai 2002

                           Volume 2


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

             RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757


Charles Dalfen                     Chairperson / Président
Joan Pennefather                   Commissioner / Conseillère
David McKendry                     Commissioner / Conseiller


William Howard                     Legal Counsel /
                                   Conseiller juridique
Jane Britten                       Hearing Coordinator /
                                   Coordonnatrice de 
Pierre LeBel                       Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT:                           TENUE À:

Conference Centre                  Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                         Portage IV
Outaouais Room                     Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                   Gatineau (Québec)

May 10, 2002                       Le 10 mai 2002

                           Volume 2


                                                   PAGE / PARA

PHASE I (Continued)

World Television Network/Le Réseau Télémonde Inc.     88 / 508



Canadian Cable Television Association               235 / 1260

Canadian Association of Broadcasters                260 / 1359

Maria Minna, M.P.                                   278 / 1442

Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia            292 / 1489

Paul A. Winn                                        298 / 1517

Gerry Weiner, John Mancinelli, Clarence S. Bayne    307 / 1556

Telelatino Network Inc.                             329 / 1651

Communication and Diversity Network                 349 / 1750

Fairchild Television Ltd.                           363 / 1829

Joseph Volpe, M.P.                                  380 / 1915

Ken A. Stewart                                      391 / 1961

Canadian Ethnocultural Council                      401 / 2007



World Television Network/Le Réseau Télémonde Inc.   411 / 2051


  1                      Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)
  2       --- Upon resuming on Friday, May 10, 2002 at 0930 /
  3           L'audience reprend le vendredi 10 mai 2002 à 0930
  4  474                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning,
  5       everyone.
  6  475                  Mr. Secretary?
  7  476                  MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  8  477                  I do believe that Mr. Ken Marchant
  9       has a point to raise this morning.
 10  478                  MR. MARCHANT:  Thank you,
 11       Mr. Secretary.
 12  479                  Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, good
 13       morning.
 14  480                  Mr. Chairman, we were told yesterday
 15       by Commissioner Pennefather, on behalf of the panel,
 16       that the standard by which WTM's request for carriage
 17       in particular would be judged would be uniqueness
 18       across the entire schedule and the entire application
 19       in relation to one paragraph of the Broadcasting Act,
 20       paragraph 3(1)(d)(iii).
 21  481                  Now, I make the assumption, and I
 22       stand to be corrected, that this was the standard
 23       developed by Commission staff.  WTM does not believe
 24       this is an appropriate standard, nor do we believe that
 25       it's a fair standard.


  1  482                  I, therefore, have two requests. 
  2       First, could Commission legal counsel be asked to
  3       explain why in their view this is test is, first,
  4       grounded in the Broadcasting Act and consistent with
  5       the Broadcasting Act?
  6  483                  And secondly, how it's consistent
  7       with administrative law principles of fairness, or if I
  8       could used American legal parlance, consistent with
  9       procedural due process and consistent with substantive
 10       due process?
 11  484                  My second request, Mr. Chairman,
 12       would be that WTM have an opportunity to make its
 13       submissions on those subjects so that this panel and
 14       the Commission could make its determination as to what
 15       the appropriate standard should be.
 16  485                  I would in that connection, and in
 17       conclusion, refer to Section 17 of the Broadcasting Act
 18       which says that:
 19                              "The Commission has the
 20                              authority to determine questions
 21                              of fact or law in relation to
 22                              any matter within its
 23                              jurisdiction under this Act".
 24  486                  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  487                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


  1  488                  One moment, please.
  2       --- Pause
  3  489                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Counsel?
  4  490                  MR. HOWARD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  5  491                  Dr. Marchant, I think that you have
  6       to understand that from time to time we do use a bit of
  7       shorthand around here when we are talking and I don't
  8       think the implication was that it was a stand-alone
  9       test.
 10  492                  I think it was meant to guide you
 11       with regard to giving an answer because the Commission,
 12       of course, has your submission, but what you are saying
 13       is that there are, I think, 27, 28 -- anyway, a number
 14       of the subsections of Section 3 are the ones which you
 15       fulfil, that you should be judged upon.
 16  493                  I don't think anything is carved in
 17       stone, and if you have any submissions you would like
 18       to make as to exactly what the appropriate standard is,
 19       beyond of course what you have already said, the
 20       Commission, of course, would be more than happy to
 21       accept it and take a look at it.
 22  494                  MR. MARCHANT:  Can I just consult
 23       with my client for a moment here?
 24       --- Pause
 25  495                  MR. MARCHANT:  Mr. Chairman, I think


  1       we would like to make a submission.  I would say that
  2       it's a submission entirely consistent with and
  3       elaborative of what we have submitted.  We feel a much
  4       broader range of questions are raised.
  5  496                  Might I have five minutes to collect
  6       my thoughts?
  7  497                  MR. HOWARD:  If you want to make that
  8       in writing so that when the Commission is looking at
  9       the evidence overall, you are saying this is the
 10       framework in which it should be assessing the evidence,
 11       that would be fine too.
 12  498                  I mean, I don't want to put you on
 13       the spot now.
 14  499                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  That might be
 15       better, Mr. Marchant, if you wanted to do that.  I
 16       don't think that there was any effort to set up a
 17       standard other than the standard of the objectives of
 18       the Broadcasting Act in assessing your application and,
 19       as Mr. Howard says, it was shorthand.
 20  500                  But feel free to either orally or in
 21       writing -- I would just as soon not break at this point
 22       in the proceeding, but you could either do it orally
 23       after the break or you could put it in writing later.
 24  501                  MR. MARCHANT:  Well, Mr. Chair, I
 25       think that it is sufficiently important and I think


  1       that the considerations we would advance are ones that
  2       Commissioners might wish to have in mind in approaching
  3       the questioning with respect to our submission.
  4  502                  I therefore think it would be best if
  5       I did try to outline them briefly even though it might
  6       have been giving you a slightly more organized
  7       presentation had I -- I am not complaining about your
  8       decision that you want to proceed, but I would like to
  9       make a brief submission on these points, if I might.
 10  503                  I don't think doing it in writing --
 11       perhaps I can briefly explain that by way of a short
 12       introduction to what we would say.
 13  504                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Marchant,
 14       rather than you doing that, why don't you do that after
 15       the break?  We will proceed at this stage and you will
 16       have collected your thoughts.
 17  505                  MR. MARCHANT:  Okay.
 18  506                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 19  507                  Commissioner Pennefather?
 20  508                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 21       Mr. Chairman.
 22  509                  We will continue with questions on
 23       programming areas.  We were at the point of looking at
 24       the world programming proposals.
 25  510                  There were, however, just a couple of


  1       clarifications from yesterday's discussion on Canadian
  2       programming, if you wouldn't mind.
  3  511                  We had left you with a question about
  4       the amount of original Canadian programming in the
  5       proposed service.  Do you have a number on that?
  6  512                  MR. IANNUZZI:  If I may, there are at
  7       least four things from yesterday's questioning period
  8       that I would like to have corrected into the record by
  9       having Michael McHale read into the corrections as far
 10       as Schedule B on the questions that you asked
 11       yesterday.
 12  513                  Do you want to do that so that we can
 13       clean that up?
 14  514                  MR. McHALE:  There is a small number
 15       of changes to reconciliate the totals.  If you look at
 16       page 34, Schedule B, Canadian produced.
 17  515                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The April
 18       8th...?
 19  516                  MR. McHALE:  Submission.  I was going
 20       to print a copy, but the printer, unfortunately, in the
 21       public examination room isn't working.
 22  517                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm having
 23       a little trouble hearing you.  Perhaps your microphone
 24       is a little low.  If you could pull it a little
 25       forward.


  1  518                  MR. McHALE:  We will provide a
  2       printed copy later today when we have access to a
  3       printer.
  4  519                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That would
  5       be helpful.  Thank you.
  6  520                  Page 34?
  7  521                  MR. McHALE:  Correct.  The total for
  8       specials should read 177,000.  So the overall total is
  9       4377 which ties into our financial projections.
 10  522                  Total original hours, 494 and a
 11       repeat factor of three.  So the total hours for this
 12       category is 1482.
 13  523                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Could you
 14       just repeat, Mr. McHale, the number of original hours
 15       again?
 16  524                  MR. McHALE:  It's 494, 4-9-4.
 17  525                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Per week
 18       then it would break down to?
 19  526                  MR. McHALE:  I haven't calculated. 
 20       It would be 494 divided by 52, approximately eight
 21       plus.
 22  527                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So are
 23       those the corrections and the response?
 24  528                  MR. McHALE:  That's the corrections
 25       for the Canadian produced.


  1  529                  The Canadian commissioned, the line
  2       item for specials was omitted and should read 247,000. 
  3       The number of repeats for "Port of Entry" should read
  4       130 and intercom should read 260 original and 260
  5       repeats.  So the total number of original hours is 455
  6       and over the course of the year a repeat factor of
  7       4.29.
  8  530                  It gives a new total for that
  9       category of 4397 which again ties into the financial
 10       statements.  That includes English and French
 11       production.  It's an overall total.
 12  531                  International, just one change.  The
 13       number of repeats for animation should read 52 and not
 14       156.
 15  532                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Fifty-two?
 16  533                  MR. McHALE:  Fifty-two, yes.  And the
 17       number of original hours is 806 over the course of a 
 18       year and the repeat factor is 3.87 and again ties into
 19       the financial statements.
 20  534                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 21  535                  You have expanded on the follow up on
 22       that, I appreciate it.
 23  536                  There was another follow-up point
 24       that I would like to raise -- two, in fact.
 25  537                  The first is, at the June hearing you


  1       confirmed a commitment to Canadian programming
  2       expenditures of 40 per cent of the previous year's
  3       gross revenues.  Can you confirm that you still
  4       maintain that condition and accept it as a condition of
  5       licence?
  6  538                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, we do.
  7  539                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
  8  540                  And one further point of
  9       clarification which is less of the numbers, just a
 10       concept again on the French programming so that we are
 11       absolutely clear on what is on the air.
 12  541                  MR. IANNUZZI:  If I may --
 13  542                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I came
 14       away with an idea, but I want to be sure I was right
 15       about what I heard.
 16  543                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I would like to call
 17       on Rock Demers to clarify that.
 18  544                  M. DEMERS:  Merci de me permettre de
 19       revenir sur cette question.
 20  545                  Ce qu'il faut bien comprendre et bien
 21       saisir c'est qu'il y a au moins un tiers de la
 22       programmation qui sera en français, qui sera
 23       francophone.  Un tiers du budget disponible va être
 24       consacré à produire ces émissions-là, et un tiers du
 25       temps d'antenne sera des émissions francophones.


  1  546                  Ce qu'il faut également noter c'est
  2       qu'il y aura des blocs d'émissions francophones de
  3       sorte que ce soit plus facile de permettre à
  4       l'auditoire francophone du pays de savoir à quel moment
  5       ils peuvent écouter le français, ils peuvent avoir les
  6       types d'émissions directement en français.
  7  547                  Ce qu'il faut également ajouter c'est
  8       que le reste de la programmation qui n'est pas
  9       d'origine francophone sera disponible avec des
 10       sous-titres français à la grandeur du pays, et ça cet
 11       aspect-là je pense qu'il est très important parce qu'il
 12       avantage ceux qui parlent le français au pays sur le
 13       reste du pays, parce qu'il ne faut pas oublier que
 14       d'une part les francophones sont moins réfractaires aux
 15       sous-titres que la population anglophone, et d'autre
 16       part, il y a au-delà de quatre millions de
 17       non-francophones qui ont appris le français et qui
 18       parlent le français à travers le pays.
 19  548                  Si ces quatre millions là ont pris la
 20       peine d'apprendre le français c'est qu'ils ont une
 21       curiosité par rapport à ce qui se dit, ce qui se fait,
 22       ce qui se pense en français.
 23  549                  Donc tout ceci mis ensemble, je pense
 24       démontre très clairement la présence francophone à
 25       l'intérieur du réseau Télémonde.


  1  550                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci,
  2       monsieur Demers.
  3  551                  C'était en effet le concept que
  4       j'avais conclu et c'était le résultat de notre
  5       discussion d'hier.  Ça veut dire un service, dans
  6       lequel il y a un tiers de la programmation française --
  7  552                  M. DEMERS:  Minimum.
  8  553                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Un tiers du
  9       budget approximativement, et un tiers du temps
 10       d'antenne.
 11  554                  M. DEMERS:  C'est ça.
 12  555                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Et ça veut
 13       dire qu'un francophone peut voir le tout, le tout avec
 14       sous-titres sur la programmation anglaise et
 15       nécessairement la programmation...
 16  556                  M. DEMERS:  Internationale.
 17  557                  CONSEILÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Et il y aura
 18       aussi les programmes originaux en français, et quand
 19       c'est le cas, le côté anglais le voit et l'entend en
 20       anglais avec sous-titres.
 21  558                  M. DEMERS:  C'est ça.
 22  559                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Voilà.  Je
 23       pense que c'est clair.  Merci.
 24  560                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Commissioner, also on
 25       the other question that was brought up yesterday


  1       dealing with the intercom community programs on
  2       Saturday and Sunday for a total of five hours per week,
  3       there was a question there of how we would fairly deal
  4       with the distribution of these programs and I would
  5       like Kerry Johnston to read into the record our policy
  6       on how our Advisory Ombudsman Committee would work.
  7  561                  Kerry?
  8  562                  MR. JOHNSTON:  World Télémonde is by
  9       its nature of service a multicultural service.  That is
 10       its programs, both Canadian and World, reflect the
 11       realities of the canadian cultural diversity.  It is an
 12       inclusive service available to all Canadians.
 13  563                  WTM will, under the chair of Dr. Gail
 14       Valsiakis, formerly Dean of Arts, Concordia University
 15       and a person of Aboriginal heritage, have an Ombudsman
 16       Committee whose mandate shall include:  Monitoring WTM
 17       in regard to industry codes, raising questions as to
 18       balance the sources and appropriate portrayal of
 19       persons of all cultures.
 20  564                  The Ombudsman Committee will be
 21       responsible for investigating complaints on these
 22       matters and the Chair of the Committee is on the Board
 23       of WTM and will report at each Board meeting on the
 24       activities of the Committee.
 25  565                  In addition, we will have community


  1       feedback.  WTM will in each half of the year convene
  2       groups from the multicultural communities in five to
  3       six regions of the country to receive community
  4       feedback on the balance and appropriateness of its
  5       program in respect to local communities, regions,
  6       Canada and the world.
  7  566                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Thank you, Kerry.
  8  567                  Last, but not least, Madam
  9       Commissioner, is the question that you brought up
 10       yesterday for a better definition of how, in answer to
 11       the Order-in-Council is the question of reflecting and
 12       connecting Canada's multicultural communities to the
 13       broader audiences, and specifically WTM's regional
 14       programming.
 15  568                  The Order-in-Council 2002-330 asks
 16       the CRTC to:
 17                              "... fully assess the
 18                              appropriate options for the
 19                              carriage of... services that
 20                              aspire to reflect and connect
 21                              Canada's multicultural
 22                              communities to broader
 23                              audiences".
 24  569                  For a multicultural service like WTM,
 25       and I quote:


  1                              "Communities will be defined in
  2                              many ways".
  3  570                  Each census Statistics Canada
  4       prepares profiles of communities across Canada:  25
  5       large metropolitan areas, 112 urban areas, and 6,000
  6       communities.  These Statistics Canada profiles show
  7       that every one of these communities is multicultural.
  8  571                  WTM aspires to reflect and connect
  9       these multicultural communities to the broader
 10       audiences.  These multicultural communities are the
 11       production sets for WTM programs like "Day and Night",
 12       "Mainstreets", "Eye on Canada", "Port of Entry" and our
 13       nightly WTM "News Day" which will make local stories
 14       about our multicultural communities national stories.
 15  572                  WTM will do so on a regionally
 16       balanced basis.  As we said for the purposes of
 17       Decision 2001-757, WTM expects to source its
 18       commissioned Canadian productions in the following
 19       proportions.
 20  573                  The Maritimes would be 15 per cent;
 21       Quebec, 25 per cent; French-language outside Quebec,
 22       5 per cent; and Ontario, 30 per cent, for a total of
 23       100 per cent -- and Western Canada.  I was totalling
 24       that up for the last Commissioner --
 25  574                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I can hear


  1       Commissioner Cram --
  2       --- Laughter / Rires
  3  575                  MR. IANNUZZI:  -- at the last
  4       hearing, and Western Canada, a whole 25 per cent.  We
  5       are putting Western Canada on the same level as Quebec
  6       here, and they would like that.
  7  576                  This is how we will reflect, but we
  8       also need to connect and that means carriage which
  9       makes WTM accessible to all Canadians, not just to
 10       communities we reflect, but connecting each community
 11       to every other community.
 12  577                  Thank you.
 13  578                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 14       Mr. Iannuzzi, for those clarifications and comments on
 15       the Canadian programming component.
 16  579                  If you will, we will move on to the
 17       world programming component of your proposal.  Granted,
 18       they are all part of the concept, but I think for our
 19       purposes it might be a good idea to look at that
 20       component specifically.
 21  580                  It remains that the world programming
 22       which, if we take a broad stroke of your schedule,
 23       consists of world cinema and world variety.  Now
 24       variety has a number of different aspects.  But that
 25       they remain the centrepiece of the nine to midnight


  1       period.  Is that correct?  We have the schedule you
  2       proposed on April 8th.
  3  581                  Perhaps then I would like to look at
  4       the world cinema section which is seven days a week,
  5       nine to eleven in the evening, in other words within
  6       our peak time that we discussed yesterday, which makes
  7       it a very important component of your proposal, one
  8       which might also be called another backbone of the
  9       proposal as per the Canadian programming, and you might
 10       want to comment on that and its positioning.
 11  582                  In terms of world cinema, could you
 12       describe to us what kind of films you see in this
 13       section of the schedule, why you have chosen to
 14       schedule world cinema through the scheduling of the
 15       seven days at this particular hour, and some practical
 16       questions would follow in terms of signed agreements,
 17       have you a list of the proposed films?
 18  583                  One of the aspects of my questioning
 19       is a straightforward one.  You have put forward that
 20       your service would provide films and/or other
 21       programming which is not seen currently in the Canadian
 22       broadcasting system.
 23  584                  If we could go a little further on
 24       that and you could demonstrate to us the fact that you
 25       have a selection of films in-house ready to go, or


  1       there are films that you have in mind showing which are
  2       not, in fact, available in this country in a more
  3       specific way than just that general statement, but
  4       specific titles, specific proposals that you.
  5  585                  So starting at the top, this world
  6       cinema component which is nine to eleven every night of
  7       the week is, I would say, perhaps I am wrong, a very
  8       strong component of your schedule.
  9  586                  Why have you chosen to have it occupy
 10       such a large, very predominant space in your schedule? 
 11       What will we, in fact, be seeing?  Have you signed
 12       agreements regarding these films from distributors
 13       elsewhere so we can be assured, in fact, that that is
 14       what is going to be on the screen?
 15  587                  MR. IANNUZZI:  First of all, before I
 16       turn it over to the programming section, the fact is
 17       sure that within our schedule this is an anchor, but
 18       the fact is that film, if we are going to tell stories
 19       and the kind of stories that Canadians will come to see
 20       and appreciate and in doing so will understand better
 21       the cultures of their own neighbours here in Canada. 
 22       So by buying films in these countries of original that
 23       do tell stories, and only through film can we really
 24       tell these stories a hell of a lot better than say
 25       documentaries for that particular purpose.


  1  588                  So that's where we have made our
  2       investment because these are the best stories that have
  3       yet to be told in Canada.  These are some of the 300
  4       films that are shown every year at Banff that never see
  5       the light of day in Canada.  Very few people get a
  6       chance to see the quality of world programming that is
  7       available.
  8  589                  So I am going to turn this over now
  9       to our programming department and they can tell you
 10       what is available, how we expect to do this, and how
 11       can we make our choices.
 12  590                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  Good morning.
 13  591                  I have just returned from MIPCOM in
 14       France and one of the things I did at MIPCOM was I
 15       toured mostly non-English, non-French countries' booths
 16       and companies just to see what was out there.
 17  592                  One of the things I found was
 18       countries like Korea, countries like Greece, are
 19       begging to get their product on North American
 20       television and they have catalogues -- I happen to have
 21       a Turkish catalogue in front of me, and I happen to
 22       have a Tai catalogue and this one, I think, is
 23       Slovenian.
 24  593                  They have catalogues of films that
 25       have not been seen in North America.  Some of them are


  1       excellent, some of them are the perfect sorts of
  2       programming for what we want to do which is about
  3       multiculturalism in their country, about how their
  4       people feel about foreigners, about how their people
  5       feel about North America and the west.  There is a list
  6       in each country of the world now of very good cinema.
  7  594                  Having said that, I want to point out
  8       that this year at Banff, the Banff Festival will be
  9       handing out an award for Korean cinema.  There is no
 10       market in this country for Korean cinema.  This is
 11       Korean cinema that Canadian programmers have said is
 12       excellent and they would love to see, but there is no
 13       place to put it on the air here.  The only people who
 14       will see this cinema are the people at Banff.
 15  595                  I have had programmers from -- I had
 16       a programmer from Korea come up to me at MIP and say: 
 17       "You know, if you could get this on the air in North
 18       America I will give it to you for free.  I just want it
 19       on the air in North America".
 20  596                  As some of our management people have
 21       said 94 per cent of the programming in the world made
 22       for television is not seen in North America.  There is
 23       no lack of programming.
 24  597                  The kind of movies I would love to
 25       put on the air.  I don't know if the Commission saw the


  1       movie "Yi Yi" from Taiwan.  One of the things that
  2       struck me when I watched this movie, besides that fact
  3       that it's an excellent movie, was it was about love and
  4       loss of love, which a lot of movies are about, and you
  5       had this incredible scene of where the young kids hang
  6       out.  It kind of surprised me that in Taiwan the kids'
  7       favourite hang out was a bagel shop.
  8  598                  That's the kind of thing when we see
  9       this, when we see how we are different and how we are
 10       the same, that these movies will play well to a
 11       Canadian audience.
 12  599                  Other successful movies like --
 13       forgive my Spanish -- "Y Maman Tu Tambien", which a
 14       Mexican film which is highly successful.  It's a coming
 15       of age movie about three young people in Mexico.  There
 16       is a wonderful movie in the Georgian language produced
 17       in Israel that is doing very well.  It's called "Last
 18       Wedding".  These are all movies for which there is
 19       really no interest on any other network, but Canadians
 20       are flocking to see them when given the opportunity.
 21  600                  The problem for a lot of people is if
 22       they don't live in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver,
 23       there is not a lot of this sort of thing getting into
 24       the theatres in those places.
 25  601                  So we can bring these kinds of movies


  1       and this kind of cultural exchange to the entire
  2       country.
  3  602                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
  4       Mr. Bernstein. 
  5  603                  It helps, since we are talking about
  6       television, to get a visual sense of where you are at. 
  7       I think in a business sense, I was also interested in
  8       how much is ready to go, what agreements you have, et
  9       cetera, but I can tell from your discussion that that's
 10       where you are heading on that.
 11  604                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Madam Commissioner, if
 12       I may?
 13  605                  On the question of supply, we do have
 14       agreements with La Fête Productions in Quebec whose
 15       catalogue is very ample as far as the kind of
 16       programming we are talking about, and also with UTV
 17       that covers Asia and other parts of the as far as
 18       programming supply.  These are both signed contracts.
 19  606                  We have an agreement in principle to
 20       work together with SBS in Australia.  They have a
 21       library of films that they have subtitled over the past
 22       20 years, but there are many, many films in that
 23       particular library that are classics and evergreens,
 24       and so on, that deal in the area of the multicultural
 25       aspects that reflect these world films and how they


  1       interact with communities in Australia.  Australia is
  2       very similar to the Canadian make up if we actually
  3       look at it.
  4  607                  So it becomes more difficult when you
  5       have a lot more choices that you can make.  If one
  6       would narrow it down, then it would become a lot
  7       simpler, but in reality our programming department will
  8       have an unlimited number of choices to make, and that
  9       is going to be difficult because there is a lot of good
 10       programming and finding those that we can present
 11       through Canadian eyes because it will be our Canadian
 12       programming department working with knowledgeable
 13       people within these multicultural communities across
 14       the country.
 15  608                  As Kerry was saying earlier, we will
 16       have -- he calls them sort of an outreach kind of
 17       thing, but to me it's no different than focus groups
 18       that we test certain types of films on and that's the
 19       way our choices will be made.
 20  609                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But you
 21       have predicted my next question and I would like to
 22       continue that discussion.
 23  610                  Just quickly though you mentioned the
 24       SBS.  Just for the record, what we have on file are
 25       agreements or potential agreements, dated 1996.  Are


  1       you saying that they are still in play?
  2  611                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I was in Australia 18
  3       months ago, and we are still in touch with them.  It
  4       gets embarrassing after a while to keep asking
  5       supporters for another letter, and to keep asking your
  6       partners for another commitment in writing.  All they
  7       do is take the stationary, change the dateline and off
  8       we go.
  9  612                  I mean, one has to believe that there
 10       is the credibility that SBS is sticking by with us in
 11       this alliance.  After all, we were the ones that set
 12       them on the path for multicultural programming back
 13       in 1978.
 14  613                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 15       I appreciate that, but I am sure you appreciate why,
 16       for the record, we should clarify that point.
 17  614                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I appreciate putting
 18       that back on the record, I can tell you that.
 19  615                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just in
 20       terms of your important comments as we discuss world
 21       programming, now looking at not only world cinema but
 22       the whole approach to world programming.
 23  616                  You have just described -- and I
 24       would like you to expand a little further for the panel
 25       on how you will make the selection from this vast


  1       unseen material which you well described.
  2  617                  The point I am getting at, and again
  3       pursuant to the comments this morning, I hope you will
  4       take my question in the spirit in which it is asked,
  5       and that is your own proposal and your own objectives
  6       for this service.  You have repeated them again this
  7       morning, and even in this discussion on the
  8       multicultural aspect of Australian society, on the
  9       multicultural aspect of our society and their
 10       comparisons and why then you feel that, for example,
 11       SBS' library would be extremely useful for your
 12       purposes.
 13  618                  How then, again, is this world
 14       programming going to be selected to reflect the
 15       Canadian multicultural society which, I believe, is
 16       your goal and I don't think I am imposing that goal on
 17       you in so saying.  I think you have said it many, many
 18       times.
 19  619                  Could you elaborate for us again in
 20       making your selections, what is driving the selections? 
 21       How will you be making those choices?  How is this
 22       world programming as a package really reflecting,
 23       serving and connecting Canada's multicultural society? 
 24       Is that a fair question?
 25  620                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Certainly a long one.


  1  621                  I am going to give it a try since I
  2       have been at this for some time and then the
  3       programming department.
  4  622                  First of all, the choice has to be
  5       made that it has to be entertaining.  I mean, we are in
  6       a business and, therefore, the quality of the film and
  7       the entertainment value of the film would certainly be
  8       no different at that point than any other broadcasting. 
  9       That's where we start, where they finish.
 10  623                  In making our choices, we are trying
 11       to see that there are stories that would show other
 12       Canadians that part of another person's culture in
 13       Canada, and therefore that is part of the connecting.
 14  624                  Second, the storylines have to be as
 15       we would choose them to make sure that the portrayal
 16       and the dynamics of the country of origin is placed in
 17       such a way that it would not displeased, we would not
 18       be entertaining at the expense of any other culture in
 19       Canada.  That's where we start and we bring it over.
 20  625                  So we make sure that if we have ample
 21       choices, that rather than choose two very entertaining
 22       films, that we choose the one that whilst it is
 23       entertaining and the quality is there, we can appeal to
 24       the wider audience of Canadians that we cannot forget
 25       the fact that there are people in Canada that are


  1       representative within that story that is being told,
  2       within the background on which it's being shot, and so
  3       on.
  4  626                  Where we can do this on a positive
  5       basis, then we are enhancing the image and the
  6       portrayal of our neighbours, of other people in Canada. 
  7       There is a positive aspect to the whole question of
  8       portraying the multicultural reality in Canada.  We owe
  9       that to each other.
 10  627                  If we are going to get beyond the
 11       question of tolerance, as we are today, into the point
 12       where we can accept each other, that must come through
 13       the screen in a very entertaining way.  I mean we are
 14       not running a school.  This is not the Learning
 15       Channel.  That's something for Moses Znaimer to take
 16       care of.
 17  628                  We are out to be very entertaining,
 18       but at the same time that's how we get the attention of
 19       the viewers and by entertaining them with the stories
 20       that they can appreciate, and through that see
 21       themselves, their neighbours or in reality the world
 22       and how Canada relates to the world.  Canada is the
 23       world in one country.  Well, television doesn't say
 24       that.  We know that.  Whether you live in Toronto or
 25       you live in Montreal or maybe even in Bellechasse there


  1       is probably some multicultural aspect taking place
  2       there as there are in the 6,000 communities that
  3       StatsCan is talking about.  That is who we are
  4       programming to.
  5  629                  That's why we have to bring these
  6       images of the world, very entertaining, in the privacy
  7       of your own home.  When we have done that, we have
  8       accomplished our mandate.
  9  630                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You
 10       understand the nature of my question is coming from
 11       your own comments and those of others as we have looked
 12       at this concept as to how the world programming meets
 13       the goals of the Broadcasting Act in terms of the
 14       reflection of Canada's society.
 15  631                  That's the reason I asked you this
 16       question.  It's not a new question and I think it's
 17       very related to what your goal is.  Some would say that
 18       the world programming does not really have anything to
 19       do with the Canadian multicultural society and its
 20       diversity and the needs that we have.  That's why I
 21       asked you the question and I think you responded well.
 22  632                  Monsieur Demers seems to have a
 23       comment.
 24  633                  M. DEMERS:  Oui, juste deux petits
 25       détails.  Le premier sur l'approvisionnement.


  1  634                  Mardi prochain je quitte pour le
  2       festival de Cannes.  Je pourrais revenir à la fin du
  3       mois avec cent films, avec cent films qui pourraient
  4       être programmés à Télémonde qui viennent de toutes les
  5       parties du monde.
  6  635                  Il y a une abondance de produits de
  7       très grande qualité qui sont disponibles.  On n'a pas
  8       idée à quel point il y a une richesse qui est d'origine
  9       de tous les pays et qui ne nous est pas accessible.
 10  636                  L'autre chose que j'aimerais ajouter
 11       à ce M. Iannuzzi vient de dire, c'est qu'un des
 12       éléments du choix qui va être très important c'est que
 13       si on est en Italie ou en Pologne ou en Chine, on va
 14       choisir les films disponibles susceptibles d'intéresser
 15       toute la population canadienne et non pas les films
 16       susceptibles d'intéresser la communauté chinoise ou
 17       italienne ou grecque.
 18  637                  Ça c'est très important parce que si
 19       on prend, par exemple, dans le sens inverse on connaît
 20       tous les "Boys ou Men with a Broomstick".  Ces films-là
 21       peuvent être intéressants pour des communautés
 22       québécoises à l'extérieur du pays, mais ils n'ont aucun
 23       intérêt pour le public français ou pour le public
 24       allemand ou pour le public italien.
 25  638                  Donc dans le canal ethnique des ces


  1       pays-là on peut y programmer ces films.  Il y a
  2       d'autres films faits ici au Canada susceptibles
  3       d'intéresser les publics de quelque culture que ce
  4       soit.
  5  639                  Aussi sur le respect des communautés,
  6       à ma connaissance aujourd'hui le pays qui pousse ça le
  7       plus loin c'est la Chine.  On ne peut pas vendre un
  8       film en Chine si les Chinois perçoivent que peut-être
  9       il y a des éléments dans ce film-là qui peuvent être
 10       offensant pour les Allemands ou pour les Ukrainiens ou
 11       pour les Italiens.
 12  640                  Peu importe la qualité du film s'il y
 13       a des éléments susceptibles de blesser quelqu'un on
 14       refuse de programmer le film.  On peut s'inspirer de la
 15       façon dont ils travaillent -- en tout cas moi je suis
 16       très sensible à ça -- dans les critères de choix de
 17       films qu'on aura à programmer à Télémonde.
 18  641                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci,
 19       monsieur Demers.
 20  642                  Si j'ai bien compris, juste un petit
 21       point, ça veut dire quand même que la sélection du film
 22       disons de la Chine ou d'autres pays, peut provenir des
 23       mêmes sources que, en effet, les films choisis par les
 24       services qui visent une population chinoise.  C'est
 25       possible qu'on aille aux mêmes sources.  Est-ce que ce


  1       n'este pas vrai?  Même si on choisit pour un auditoire
  2       plus large, ça reste en effet que la sélection peut
  3       être faite aussi par les services qui sont destinés à
  4       des publics plus ciblés, ça veut dire public qui parle
  5       chinois.
  6  643                  M. DEMERS:  Effectivement, si on
  7       prend surtout l'exemple de la Chine où c'est encore
  8       très nationalisé, les sources sont peu nombreuses pour
  9       l'ensemble de la production qu'il y a, mais le choix
 10       des films sera fait selon des critères très différents
 11       de ce qu'on canal qui s'adresse à la population
 12       chinoise canadienne ferait.
 13  644                  Si on prend l'Inde, par contre, où on
 14       produit au-delà de 800 longs métrages par année, et je
 15       ne me souviens pas d'en avoir vu un dans les salles de
 16       cinéma ou sur nos télévisions généralistes même
 17       si --d'abord les sources sont très diversifiées en Inde
 18       parce qu'il y toute la production de Bombay, de Delhi,
 19       de Calcuta, du sud.  Les films qui seront choisis
 20       seront ceux capables d'intéresser la population
 21       canadienne.
 22  645                  Donc, à mon avis, il n'y a absolument
 23       aucun conflit étant donné que la mission de Télémonde
 24       est très différente de ce que peut être celle d'un
 25       canal éthnique.


  1  646                  CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci.
  2  647                  If you would turn to page 46 of your
  3       April submission.  There is a clarification I have on
  4       the condition that you have suggested be substituted
  5       and it's an alternative condition of licence you have
  6       proposed, with respect to the limits on programming,
  7       from any one region of the world.
  8  648                  How would this alternative impact on
  9       your program schedule?  This deals with:
 10                              "... 10 per cent of non-Canadian
 11                              programming aired in each
 12                              three-month period commencing 1
 13                              September, 1 December, 1 March
 14                              and 1 June of the broadcast year
 15                              may originate in any single
 16                              country...".
 17  649                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, yes, I am sorry. 
 18       I finally got it here.  That was page 46.
 19  650                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's
 20       right.
 21  651                  MR. IANNUZZI:  We would have:
 22                              "A maximum of 10 per cent of
 23                              non-Canadian programming aired
 24                              in each three-month period
 25                              commencing 1 September, 1


  1                              December, 1 March and 1 June of
  2                              the broadcast year may originate
  3                              in any single country other than
  4                              Great Britain and the U.S.".
  5  652                  And the following condition would be
  6       substituted for that:
  7                                  "A maximum of 10 per cent of
  8                                  non-Canadian programming
  9                                  aired in each three-month
 10                                  period 1 September, 1
 11                                  December, 1 March and 1 June
 12                                  of the broadcast year may
 13                                  originate in a single
 14                                  country".
 15  653                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  My
 16       question is, having proposed an alternative condition,
 17       how will that affect your program schedule?
 18  654                  MR. IANNUZZI:  It doesn't affect our
 19       program schedule in any way.
 20  655                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now that
 21       we have looked at this proposal for no more than 10 per
 22       cent, given that a number of countries throughout the
 23       world speak English, what effect do you think this
 24       proposal will have on the amount of English language
 25       programming from several different countries, if you


  1       will?
  2  656                  I think the point of my question was
  3       raised at the previous hearing as well in terms of this
  4       10 per cent of world programming.  Will the effect be
  5       to have, nevertheless, a considerable amount of English
  6       language world programming?  Obviously, with our
  7       earlier discussion, you are looking for a diversity of
  8       world programming --
  9  657                  MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.
 10  658                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  -- which
 11       is a diversity of world languages I would assume.
 12  659                  The potential here may be for more
 13       English language programming even though there is a
 14       limit of 10 per cent on regions or countries.  Is it
 15       your sense that this allows for more English language
 16       world programming than 10 per cent?
 17  660                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  I think that the
 18       fact of the 10 per cent laid out for languages, in
 19       using the country rather than the language, is that in
 20       some countries, India is an example, there are programs
 21       that are produced unfortunately in English but are good
 22       multicultural programs and would fit our kind of
 23       schedule, so this is why we had originally tried to
 24       limit -- to show that we weren't out to fill our
 25       schedule with English programming by trying to limit


  1       Great Britain and the United States.  Then we find
  2       ourselves discriminating against two countries and I
  3       understand that was one of the reasons we would have
  4       changed that to being any single country.
  5  661                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I follow
  6       you.
  7  662                  MR. IANNUZZI:  The intention was
  8       there.
  9  663                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.  I
 10       read the transcript and I see the evolution.  It is a
 11       question then of understanding that new condition and I
 12       understand it as written.  Right on the point, what
 13       does it mean in terms of how much English language
 14       world programming will there be?  Even with this
 15       condition, what is your estimate of how much English
 16       language world programming we will have on the surface
 17       and, similarly, how much French language world
 18       programming?  Do you have a sense of that?
 19  664                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Not as yet.  We have a
 20       sense for the French because the whole idea was to
 21       increase the French context in the selection of world
 22       programming that there are areas of countries where
 23       French is part of the Francophonie and therefore we
 24       would be choosing some of these programs, maybe as much
 25       as 10 per cent again, to increase the French content of


  1       spoken language on the French service and, again,
  2       subtitle into English on the English line.
  3  665                  The English factor in the English
  4       service, the mere fact that we have a high percentage
  5       of Canadian content that is all produced in English,
  6       for us to go into our world programming and to try and
  7       increase more English programming defeats the purpose
  8       that we are talking about, so that the spirit of this
  9       condition of licence tries to impose on us in a way and
 10       assure the Commission and other broadcasters that we
 11       are not invading their territory by running out and
 12       choosing as much English programming as we can in order
 13       to avoid even subtitling on the English channel.
 14  666                  We are a multicultural service and we
 15       intend to use the original productions from those
 16       countries we believe reflect the peoples of the world
 17       who are the people in Canada.  Therefore, that is our
 18       guiding line.
 19  667                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 20       I appreciate you coming back to that point, that you
 21       are a multicultural service.  That is exactly why I am
 22       asking this question, because the assumption is we are
 23       looking for multilanguages as well.  I believe that is
 24       your goal.  Again, the spirit of the questions I am
 25       asking is having yourselves set out a goal of a very


  1       exceptional multicultural service it is important that
  2       all these aspects are discussed as clearly as possible.
  3  668                  Subtitling is key to this and that is
  4       my next subject.  You have touched on it already.
  5  669                  Just to be clear, then, all the world
  6       programming would be subtitled.
  7  670                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.  I would like
  8       to ask Michael McHale to speak to that.  Michael.
  9  671                  MR. McHALE:  All programming,
 10       including Canadian, will be subtitled in at least one
 11       of the official languages.  So a French language
 12       Canadian production will have English subtitles and the
 13       opposite for the opposite markets.  All third language
 14       programming will be subtitled in both languages.
 15  672                  But our approach to subtitling is
 16       different than what you see on the air at the moment. 
 17       We will use colour-coded subtitling so it is easier to
 18       read.  You will not have white subtitles on top of a
 19       white background.
 20  673                  We will also use the archives that
 21       SBS has.  One of the keys to SBS' success is that they
 22       have hired -- and at this stage they are up to over 100
 23       translators, all who are proficient in a local language
 24       and they subtitle from scratch all of their movies.  We
 25       will have access to those subtitles.


  1  674                  The subtitles have been a key
  2       component of SBS' success.  Their numbers are quite
  3       impressive and they have maintained their audience and
  4       I have the numbers from their last annual report that
  5       they sent to us.  Their numbers are up 6.1 per cent
  6       from 1998 to 1999.  That was in an era when satellite
  7       TV finally arrived in Australia and cable systems were
  8       developed in Sydney, so SBS is very competitive with
  9       SABC and maintaining market share.
 10  675                  The subtitling in both languages also
 11       makes it accessible to everyone.  No one is excluded. 
 12       That is part of our mandate, that we are accessible to
 13       all multicultural communities in Canada.
 14  676                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 15       Mr. McHale.  I just want to go over the points again
 16       just to be clear.
 17  677                  The world subtitling English and
 18       French, so film X would have English subtitles for
 19       anglophone viewers and French subtitles for francophone
 20       viewers which means one film has two subtitling efforts
 21       made.  In the budget -- I am basing myself on
 22       Schedule 24 in the budget -- your subtitling budget for
 23       English language I think was $300,000, French language
 24       $300,000.  I believe that is the world programming. 
 25       Are those the correct figures?


  1  678                  MR. McHALE:  That is the annual
  2       budget.  The budget for the seven year licence period
  3       is $3.15 million for both.
  4  679                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, I was
  5       looking at the annual budget just -- I think it is --
  6  680                  MR. McHALE:  Yes, and we allocated it
  7       50/50.  It goes back to we have no way of working out
  8       what is the exact amount of languages, how much will be
  9       English, how much will be French.
 10  681                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It is an
 11       important question.  The reason for the detail is any
 12       adjustments you may want to make in that over time
 13       because it is such an important component of the
 14       concept.
 15  682                  For example, if SBS are supplying you
 16       with already subtitled films, would you not think that
 17       there would be more English language subtitling
 18       available and you would have to spend more to subtitle
 19       your body of films in the French language and therefore
 20       change the budget accordingly?  Are you suggesting that
 21       might happen over the course of the seven years?
 22  683                  MR. McHALE:  What we will acquire
 23       from SBS is the subtitles not the actual movies.  They
 24       have licensed the movies for use in Australia only and
 25       they have created their own subtitle --


  1  684                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you
  2       will just take the subtitling program and leave it at
  3       that.
  4  685                  MR. McHALE:  The subtitle itself and
  5       insert it into ours.  Correct, they subtitle in English
  6       only.
  7  686                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So your
  8       acquisition budget, SBS, would include the subtitling
  9       costs or does that turn up in the subtitling budget?
 10  687                  MR. McHALE:  In the subtitling
 11       budget.
 12  688                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You
 13       referred to the kind of subtitling.  I guess you called
 14       it state of the art in your submission.  Is that what
 15       you were describing to us?
 16  689                  MR. McHALE:  Yes.
 17  690                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you
 18       currently equipped to undertake that subtitling?
 19  691                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I would like to speak
 20       to that, if I may, because I am quite familiar with SBS
 21       and my discussions with them over the years.
 22  692                  SBS, because it is a state-owned
 23       broadcasting system, was the first to subtitle all of
 24       their programming so that all taxpayers could have
 25       access to the programming.  To do this they decided


  1       that it wasn't a question of buying subtitled material
  2       or programs, movies already subtitled by the producer
  3       in the country of origin, for the simple reason that
  4       the quality of the subtitling was not there.  The text
  5       did not match the scenes and it was the kind of
  6       subtitling that would generally frustrate the viewer.
  7  693                  They decided and set up a department
  8       of 90 rewriters, translators and scriptwriters.  The
  9       arrangements they made with producers when I first met
 10       them in the early eighties at MIP, they were buying
 11       programming, specifically movies, without the
 12       subtitling, they wanted the original master, and made
 13       the arrangements with the producers to buy that
 14       particular film without subtitles.  They would then
 15       have the masters sent to London for which they would
 16       make a work print.  They would have the original script
 17       given to them by the producer.  The work prints and the
 18       translation is made in Australia.  They would then
 19       write the script for every scene in the movie.  All of
 20       the subtitling was also colour-coded, which is the
 21       other frustrating thing when you watch movies from some
 22       countries.  It just made it impossible on certain light
 23       scenes that you couldn't read the type.  But with the
 24       computerized system that they are using, and that is
 25       why we say state of the art, the colour coding actually


  1       makes it pleasing to read.  It is usually in a gold
  2       colour and it becomes lighter and darker.
  3  694                  If we watch Show Case, if we watch
  4       CBC, some of these films are now done in the same mode. 
  5       This has been taking place in Canada as far as other
  6       broadcasters over the past few years.  That is why we
  7       are saying that our arrangement and our alliance with
  8       SBS is, aside from the fact that they have films within
  9       their library -- assuming we wanted to take, I don't
 10       know "The Life of Galileo".  We think that is an
 11       excellent film and there is a storyline there, there is
 12       history, there is everything else.  That film would be
 13       available through a producer.  We would end up paying
 14       the producer the rights for that.  A simple agreement. 
 15       We don't want his master; we don't want anything.  We
 16       would have the arrangements sent to us directly from
 17       Australia and all we would pay is the Australians would
 18       get a 15 per cent royalty on the price that we paid the
 19       film, so that if we pay the film $5,000, we would give
 20       them $750 for the key subtitling.  That is the
 21       arrangement.
 22  695                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 23       for that.  I assume, though, that not all the
 24       programming will be from SBS.
 25  696                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.


  1  697                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So my
  2       question really also was, considering the level of
  3       subtitling that you are looking for, is the budget
  4       sufficient?  Secondly, are you currently
  5       capital-equipped to do that yourself or how will that
  6       be done?
  7  698                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  We are personally
  8       not equipped to do that.  We have arrangements with a
  9       subtitling firm in Quebec and in Ottawa that we will be
 10       doing subtitling there.
 11  699                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 12  700                  The point also that Mr. McHale raised
 13       and you have raised earlier was the acceptability of
 14       subtitling in terms of viewership both in English and
 15       French in this country.  Your demand studies, as I
 16       recall, even though they are dated back a bit seem to
 17       be a little unclear on how well Canadians would accept. 
 18       Mr. Demers just mentioned perhaps Quebecers would
 19       accept more the subtitled approach.
 20  701                  What is your thought on how
 21       acceptable the subtitling will be to audiences in this
 22       country since the entire schedule, as you have said,
 23       Mr. McHale, will be subtitled?
 24  702                  MR. McHALE:  You are correct.  The
 25       entire third language schedule will be subtitled.  We


  1       also will never dub, because we think that is not
  2       acceptable to our audiences.  It is much better to have
  3       the original language with subtitles.  You just have to
  4       look at the success in the box office of international
  5       movies that are subtitled.  There is an appetite for
  6       that type of programming.  I don't think our audience
  7       will object at all.  Subtitling is more acceptable
  8       today than it was maybe a decade or two decades ago.
  9  703                  MR. IANNUZZI:  The fact that the
 10       other broadcasters, the mainline broadcasters, are
 11       inserting these films every so often, people like
 12       Showcase that run it in prime time, brings not only the
 13       awareness but the acceptance to the wider audience, the
 14       same people that we are going to, the difference
 15       being -- I mean, we are equal as far as the subtitle,
 16       it is a question of the program of the movies -- the
 17       choices made are different than Showcase.
 18  704                  Showcase runs movies because it is
 19       owned by Alliance.  The fact is that they buy films in
 20       packages and so on and have to pick up a certain amount
 21       of these other films that have subtitles and they run
 22       those in their schedule.  So their choice is made
 23       simply because it is inventory that they buy when they
 24       buy a package of films from some European or other
 25       world distributors.  In our case, we are choosing


  1       within packages, but single choices are made for this.
  2  705                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  This is an
  3       entire schedule, though, subtitles so again it is
  4       something that you have put forward as one of the
  5       unique aspects of your proposal.  I think it is
  6       important we understand how successful you are going to
  7       be in terms of maintaining audiences with that much
  8       subtitling.  I only raised it because there was some
  9       somewhat lower, certainly under 50 per cent if not
 10       under 40 per cent in the earlier studies, as I recall,
 11       that were not clearly comfortable with that.
 12  706                  Just one point too, if you would,
 13       Mr. McHale.  In the transcript of the previous hearing,
 14       I think it is Volume 3, paragraph 1182, you can check
 15       this later, I think there was a discussion that not all
 16       the schedule be subtitled, all but 33 per cent or
 17       33 per cent would be of world programming.  Perhaps you
 18       could double check that.  You are confirming with us
 19       today that the entire schedule would be subtitled.
 20  707                  MR. McHALE:  The entire schedule will
 21       be subtitled in at least on language.  If the
 22       international programming is in French or English then
 23       there is only a need to subtitle in one, but yes all
 24       programming will be subtitled, all international
 25       programming.


  1  708                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Canadian
  2       and world.
  3  709                  MR. McHALE:  Yes, because in the
  4       minority language markets we will have to subtitle.
  5  710                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
  6  711                  MR. McHALE:  Going back to the
  7       acceptability in numbers, I would again go back to SBS
  8       and their experience.  You know, a 6.1 per cent
  9       increase in audience in one year is quite dramatic. 
 10       Awardlinks, a satellite television service in the
 11       United States, is starting to broadcast a lot of
 12       international programming with subtitles, again
 13       acquiring the subtitles from SBS, and their numbers are
 14       quite impressive as well.
 15  712                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 16       I am going to go to another -- sorry.
 17  713                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I will just finish
 18       this one off because we are talking -- in the case of
 19       Australia, thanks to the subtitles, the largest number
 20       of viewers came from Australian-born rather than the
 21       ethnic communities.
 22  714                  I would like Kerry to just elaborate
 23       a little moment -- you used the 40 per cent factor as
 24       far as the demand for -- the acceptability of
 25       subtitles.


  1  715                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I was
  2       guessing back to what I had read.  I don't have it
  3       right here.  But as I recall the figures were in
  4       there --
  5  716                  MR. IANNUZZI:  You are correct. 
  6       Right.  But I would like Kerry to just speak to that
  7       please.
  8  717                  MR. JOHNSTON:  You are right, that
  9       was a 1966 study, gallop poll, and it rang in about
 10       35 to 40 per cent.  It was actually highest in Ontario,
 11       second was in Quebec.  We believe, although we haven't
 12       gone back and done the exact study again because
 13       everything else keeps growing every time we go in and
 14       look at the market place, that there is a greater and
 15       greater acceptance and understanding of subtitling.
 16  718                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 17  719                  I am going to go to the subject now
 18       of what I term employment equity.  It is part and
 19       parcel of a discussion which I assume you agree we can
 20       take forward that in fact the programming on this
 21       service would be not only multicultural and diverse but
 22       that those creating it would be from the multicultural
 23       communities of this country.
 24  720                  I am sure you recall, Mr. Iannuzzi,
 25       Mr. Demers, sometime ago discussions within the


  1       international institute of communications on the whole
  2       aspect of women in film making and television under the
  3       rubric it matters who makes it; in other words, the
  4       results on the screen will be very much influenced by
  5       the diversity of the producers, the diversity of ideas,
  6       the diversity of the creators brought in, commissioned
  7       or in house to do the work.
  8  721                  In going through your application, I
  9       want to understand your approach, then, to employment
 10       equity, your approach to reaching out to different
 11       diverse producers in this country.  A bit of a
 12       challenge on this one, if you will, and I will let you
 13       take it forward.
 14  722                  In Schedule E of your June
 15       submission, I found a paragraph which referenced the
 16       following:
 17                              "WTM will build into its program
 18                              schedule specific times for the
 19                              showcasing of programs produced
 20                              within the minority communities. 
 21                              It is anticipated that within a
 22                              reasonable period of time after
 23                              its start-up, WTM will be in a
 24                              position to co-sponsor
 25                              development workshops for the


  1                              talent development within these
  2                              minority communities across the
  3                              country."  (As read)
  4  723                  I may be unfair in saying this, but I
  5       did not see many other references to the use of third
  6       language producers or minority language producers or
  7       producers from the diverse communities of this country. 
  8       Are you saying in referencing development workshops
  9       only that you are not prepared to work with producers
 10       from the different cultural communities of this country
 11       and making that a specific goal of this service.
 12  724                  The reason I am asking again, in
 13       reference to previous comments, is that you have set a
 14       goal here that this is a mainstream multicultural
 15       service for this country looking at who is going to be
 16       providing the Canadian-produced product in the first
 17       instance.  Are you telling us that there are not
 18       ready-to-go producers who have the talent and the skill
 19       to actually produce these programs across the country;
 20       and do you have a strategy to engage them?
 21  725                  M. CLÉMONT:  C'est juste pour
 22       adresser la question.  Nous sommes dans le pays, dans
 23       le Canada, entrés en démarche avec différents
 24       producteurs de diverses cultures.
 25  726                  Comme exemple, on a deux projets dans


  1       lesquels je suis impliqué en ce moment où il n'y a pas
  2       de fenêtre de discussion, mais il y en aura une fois
  3       que VTM est en place.
  4  727                  Je travaille avec une personne qui
  5       vient de l'Inde.  Elle travaille sur un projet ça fait
  6       deux ans.  Avec elle on a essayé de vendre le projet à
  7       différents réseaux de télévision dans le Canada sans
  8       succès.  C'est une histoire fantastique de sa culture
  9       ici au Canada et de son pays d'origine en Inde.
 10  728                  On travaille aussi avec une
 11       productrice polonaise.  Même situation.  Encore un
 12       projet très intéressant avec la communauté polonaise
 13       dans le Canada.
 14  729                  Alors des productrices et des
 15       producteurs indépendants dans le Canada de diverses
 16       cultures nous attendent, sont disponibles.  Dans
 17       certains cas, il y a des interventions de ces
 18       producteurs qui ont été soumises ici pour notre réseau
 19       de télévision.
 20  730                  Alors pour nous, il n'y a pas de
 21       question que nous allons avoir une gamme de divers
 22       producteurs, de différentes cultures dans notre pays. 
 23       Ça c'est sans question.  C'est énoncé déjà avec nos
 24       discussions avec différents producteurs dans
 25       différentes régions du pays.


  1  731                  Alors juste pour une indication, à ce
  2       point-ci, oui, vis-à-vis la politique des commandites
  3       et les coproductions, les productions avec eux.
  4  732                  Peut-être que je peux passer ça à
  5       Dan.
  6  733                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Madam Commissioner,
  7       the experience that we bring to the table is experience
  8       that has been gained in an earlier life in my
  9       broadcasting experience and others around the table.
 10  734                  In dealing with the ethnic
 11       broadcasters as an example, each time we come up to the
 12       Commission I have an opportunity of speaking with the
 13       various ethnic broadcasters wherein I am saying to them
 14       that we are not only complementary but the fact that
 15       your services are either local or regional and there is
 16       an area in which we can work together with your
 17       producers in some of the coverage that they are doing,
 18       that we can take certain stories, as Howard Bernstein
 19       mentioned yesterday in "News Day".  This is material
 20       that they have covered locally and specifically for
 21       that ethnic community.  This is material that we can
 22       repackage and represent as national stories or national
 23       features.
 24  735                  In dealing with Intercom community
 25       programs, again these associations have their "ethnic"


  1       programs and are working with ethnic producers that are
  2       covering some of their events.  Again, we have this
  3       connection of working with them.
  4  736                  The whole idea of ethnic
  5       broadcasting, the independent producers there, really
  6       don't have elsewhere to go.  There is no ethnic
  7       national network at this particular time, and when that
  8       would happen it would be complementary to the
  9       multicultural network.  There is a sharing there of
 10       material, experiences of coverage and economies of
 11       scale for certain things.
 12  737                  So our relationship is one with the
 13       ethnic broadcasters.  It is an experience that I have. 
 14       Many of them, we gave them the opportunity.  They were
 15       born in the womb of Channel 47 and have gone on to do
 16       things on their own.  As an example, APTN, parts of
 17       Telelatino and some of the other services that are
 18       available.  We are on a first-name basis to begin with
 19       with most of these and we expect to keep that going, so
 20       the Commission should not be worried about that.
 21  738                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Two
 22       aspects of my question and you have covered the -- yes,
 23       I understand your experience in this whole area.  I
 24       would also propose, if I may, that in presenting a
 25       project such as you have, which has set itself to be


  1       Canada's most inclusive and most unique multicultural
  2       service, that we might be looking for some very clear
  3       and specific goals as regards putting the cameras, if
  4       you will, the tools in the hands of multicultural
  5       producers.  That is the spirit of my question.
  6  739                  In addition to that, you are aware
  7       that the Commission has been pursuing this whole area
  8       of cultural diversity within the broadcasting system
  9       with all the players in this country and in that sense
 10       has laid out the elements of what is called a corporate
 11       strategy on cultural diversity.  In your case, cultural
 12       diversity is the heart of what you are doing.  One
 13       would assume then that such a corporate strategy which
 14       is quite specific as far as employment equity is
 15       concerned and engaging of producers that you would have
 16       such a plan in place.
 17  740                  For example, the plan as laid out in
 18       various decisions, recent decisions, with the major
 19       broadcasters tells you what the Commission would look
 20       for in such a plan in terms of employment within your
 21       own production group.  At the table today, you have
 22       representatives of who you are putting in place to
 23       engage in terms of production, what you are doing in
 24       terms of portrayal guidelines.  Such a comprehensive
 25       plan should be available.


  1  741                  Do you have such a plan and if not do
  2       you intend to create one and table it with the
  3       Commission?
  4  742                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  We certainly
  5       know what our action plan is because it is the mainstay
  6       of our application and what we expect to see as far as
  7       the screen is concerned and those people involved in
  8       the elements for the production or the creation of this
  9       multicultural service.
 10  743                  I would like to ask Lon, in the area
 11       of production, maybe to add something there.
 12  744                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just
 13       before you do, because the production component is a
 14       very important part, Schedule G of your June
 15       application does list about five or six elements of an
 16       employment equity strategy.  In terms of employment
 17       equity, would you agree to submit with us a corporate
 18       strategy which would expand on those points and itemize
 19       your plans over the course of the licence term to
 20       really engage in an employment equity strategy and how
 21       you will go about doing that?
 22       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
 23  745                  MR. IANNUZZI:  A mission statement
 24       that spells all of that out.
 25  746                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.


  1  747                  MR. IANNUZZI:  We will get that to
  2       the Commission within a few business days, early next
  3       week.
  4  748                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
  5       And on the production side.
  6  749                  MR. APPLEBY:  I just wanted to
  7       address how we actually will be working with producers,
  8       young producers, from culturally diverse backgrounds. 
  9       I want to point you to one show only, just one of many,
 10       in which we were working with young producers.
 11  750                  At six o'clock on Wednesday evenings,
 12       kicking off prime time, is a show called "Debut". 
 13       Essentially, what that show is is we will be taking
 14       films and videos, winning films and videos from
 15       post-secondary institutions across the country,
 16       community colleges and universities, in film and
 17       television programs, and we will be showcasing the best
 18       of those.  But in addition, and this is where we have
 19       something that we are very excited about and we believe
 20       is very distinct for our service and will be a serious
 21       investment in the young production community, with
 22       those winners we will be developing a movie and some of
 23       those winners will be given the opportunity to develop
 24       a 60-minute movie which will be seen on WTM nationally. 
 25       They will be given the equipment, the camera equipment


  1       and the editing equipment, they will be paid themselves
  2       to produce that movie, and they will work with our
  3       programming team to develop the scripts so that those
  4       movies that are actually exhibited are entertaining and
  5       can be seen widely.
  6  751                  I can give you an example of one more
  7       of why those are culturally diverse voices.  If you go
  8       into any university these days or any community college
  9       in any film or television program, and I know this
 10       because I hand out awards in these institutions, when
 11       you see the winning films and the credits rolling by as
 12       to who the directors were, who the crews were, I can't
 13       even recognize the syllables of some of these names.
 14  752                  What we are looking at is we are
 15       going to be working with these young producers who come
 16       from culturally diverse backgrounds to be developing
 17       films that are also extremely entertaining, so both the
 18       voices are unique, from many different backgrounds, but
 19       the actual content, the plots, the drama will be very
 20       strong.
 21  753                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 22  754                  I just wanted to ask the programmers
 23       a quick question, how the program "Canadians, eh"
 24       became "Rabell"?  You don't have to answer that.
 25  755                  MR. BERNSTEIN:  No.  I would like to


  1       answer that.
  2  756                  This is a proposal that came in to us
  3       as "Rabell".  Frankly, there were some people involved
  4       in our organization who thought that there might be
  5       communities who might not like that name.  As
  6       programmers, we thought it was hip, it was interesting,
  7       it was edgy and we pushed very hard to go back to the
  8       original name.
  9  757                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right,
 10       then.  I am going to move on to a couple of last areas,
 11       two last areas, and then ask you to wrap in the
 12       programming.
 13  758                  Again, I hope you will take this in
 14       the spirit in which I ask it.  In light of the carriage
 15       proposals you have and the resulting revenues, you say
 16       that you should be accessible to all Canadians.  Does
 17       this not include visually-impaired Canadians and if so
 18       what is your commitment in this regard starting in year
 19       one if you receive the carriage you are proposing and
 20       even not?  What is your proposal in this regard?
 21  759                  I believe at the last hearing you
 22       hesitated on this matter.  You said you had a board for
 23       described video and you would use the SAP channel for
 24       these purposes, but have you gone further in your
 25       thinking on this matter?


  1  760                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, we have.  In that
  2       we start off with the fact that the subtitling in
  3       reality is open captioning, so we are saying that we
  4       have a tremendous amount of access there to the hearing
  5       impaired with open captioning.
  6  761                  What you are talking about is the
  7       close captioning which goes one step --
  8  762                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I am
  9       talking about visually impaired.
 10  763                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm
 11       sorry.  I thought it was the hearing impaired.
 12  764                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm sorry. 
 13       Described video.  We will get to the close captioning.
 14  765                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No, no.  I'm sorry. 
 15       I'm sorry.
 16  766                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Described
 17       video, yes.
 18  767                  Do you have a more cohesive and
 19       developed plan to make your programming available to
 20       all Canadians, including those who are visually
 21       impaired?  This was discussed at the last hearing and
 22       you said you had a board for described video and would
 23       use the SAP but you did not have any budget set aside
 24       or any greater detail on how you propose to make your
 25       programming available for visually impaired Canadians.


  1  768                  Are you prepared to table such a plan
  2       with us today?
  3  769                  MR. IANNUZZI:  We would have
  4       something for you by the end of the day on that
  5       particular matter.  Thank you.
  6  770                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
  7  771                  Now on the closed captioning,
  8       Mr. Iannuzzi, just to reconfirm your commitments, close
  9       captioning of English and French language programming
 10       on each of the French and English feeds by the end of
 11       the licence term, that would be all programming would
 12       be close captioned.  Do you still maintain that
 13       commitment?
 14  772                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, that is still our
 15       commitment.
 16  773                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Captioning
 17       of at least 90 per cent of the programming which is not
 18       subtitled on each of its English and French feeds by
 19       the end of the licence term.
 20  774                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.
 21  775                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have
 22       reached the end of my questioning.  I do have a final
 23       question.
 24  776                  You said at the beginning, to answer
 25       the questions we did not ask -- the spirit of this


  1       question is just to give you a chance to explain once
  2       again from a programming point of view how your service
  3       will truly be an alternative, unique and an exceptional
  4       service.
  5  777                  In your application I note that you
  6       listed 29 objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  You have
  7       made a very clear point that what you are after is a
  8       multicultural service, so obviously certain objectives
  9       stand out and you have made considerable comment on
 10       those particular objectives.
 11  778                  Can you once again tell us in today's
 12       environment, today's television environment, where
 13       perhaps one could see that, a number of the programs
 14       you have described and your approach to access to
 15       programming from different cultures is available by
 16       virtue of zapping through the system as it is by virtue
 17       of world communications as they are?
 18  779                  Can you tell us once again why is it
 19       that your program concept is unique, all inclusive and
 20       of exceptional importance of fulfilling the objectives
 21       of the act as you have laid them out in your proposal?
 22  780                  MR. IANNUZZI:  First and foremost,
 23       the fact is that the broadcasting system as we know it
 24       today does not include or reflect the multicultural
 25       reality of our country.  Therefore, we see our


  1       service -- someone used the term "the last spike" to a
  2       balanced broadcasting system that would reflect one of
  3       the seven largest industrialized nations in the world.
  4  781                  We are a country that was responsible
  5       for satellite and cable distribution.  We are ahead of
  6       our time technologically.  That is probably because we
  7       gave a lot more emphasis on technological diversity
  8       than we did to cultural diversity in the past decade. 
  9       Therefore, we see our service again, and I want to use
 10       the term but I don't want to live with it, that you
 11       will measure everything that I say or everything that
 12       we do or that we promise to do that must be of a unique
 13       standard that, you know, you have put it so high that
 14       it makes it difficult to jump over.
 15  782                  We believe that there is room in this
 16       country for a number of multicultural channels because
 17       it is the environment that is being created here.  The
 18       Commission can go and ask industry to find all sorts of
 19       programming ideas.  In fact, I have seen some of the
 20       material here from earlier renewals where this thing is
 21       creeping in and all of a sudden there are bumpers on
 22       their stations, "We're multicultural", as if they just
 23       discovered the country.
 24  783                  Well, we haven't discovered the
 25       country; we have lived the country.  Multiculturalism


  1       is a way of life.  It is surprising that we had to, in
  2       this country, actually bring an act out for government
  3       institutions, agencies and so on that in an earlier
  4       time would have reflected the multicultural reality of
  5       the country.  But now because of statistics we are able
  6       to understand these numbers and how the country has
  7       unfolded and how all of a sudden there may be cash in
  8       diversity.  Therefore, people within our own industry
  9       are now appealing to the Commission to either leave WTM
 10       as a Category 2 or better still call for new licences,
 11       but by the way, Mr. CRTC, when you do, make sure that
 12       it is a Category 1 with mandatory carriage.
 13  784                  So it is all right for them to say
 14       that a service such as ours is to be relegated to a
 15       Category 2, but if they were going to attempt it,
 16       should you call, make sure it isn't a 2, it is at least
 17       a 1 with mandatory carriage.  What does that mean?  It
 18       means that they understand.  The big boys of the
 19       industry understand that if you do this thing right
 20       there might be cash in diversity, otherwise they
 21       wouldn't be appealing this.  Because all of a sudden
 22       the ethnic aspect of this has gone into a totally
 23       discretionary mode and there is an opportunity here
 24       that if the Commission does respond to the positive
 25       aspects of what we are trying to do and give us the


  1       opportunity on analog, whether it be on basic, which we
  2       rightfully believe is the right answer, to modified
  3       dual status, that we have an opportunity of being the
  4       first multicultural service.
  5  785                  I have been there before, with the
  6       first multilingual television service in the world in
  7       Toronto and it became a laboratory for a lot of
  8       understanding and development of programming, and it
  9       trained a lot of people that today, when you are
 10       looking at the credits, whether it is Citytv or CBC and
 11       so on, and Global, you find a lot of people who are,
 12       you know, experienced in the womb of Channel 47.
 13  786                  We expect to be that again.  We will
 14       be the first.  We will be the laboratoire.  These will
 15       be the examples that other broadcasters can pick up. 
 16       We will be sharing programming with them.  I have no
 17       qualms about sharing a program with Global.  They may
 18       want a second window to run Saturday afternoon.  If he
 19       wants to run night and day, whatever the case may be,
 20       we are open.  My policy has always been open whether I
 21       am working with ethnic broadcasters or with
 22       conventional broadcasters.
 23  787                  So this is the reason why we are
 24       saying give us the opportunity.  I would go one step
 25       further.  I would make it a condition of licence that


  1       if after three years we are not able to answer the
  2       Commission, you could call us before the Commission and
  3       absolutely see that if we haven't met any of the
  4       conditions of licence, then I say to you unless we can
  5       correct that within a short time that you call for
  6       someone else to do this job.
  7  788                  But at that time we deserve an
  8       opportunity to prove to you, to go beyond all the
  9       explanations, because explaining multiculturalism is
 10       certainly not easy.  It is like explaining a way of
 11       life.  Yet we want to put these in quantities and
 12       measurements and inches.  It just doesn't work.  This
 13       is a whole experience and it comes from experience.  It
 14       comes from a cross-section of the people that you see
 15       before you, our own ethnic backgrounds.
 16  789                  Although I am a fourth generation
 17       Canadian, my grandparents came over in 1880, I am just
 18       as much ethnic on the one hand but multicultural for
 19       the most part.  So are my children.  Therefore, we have
 20       this experience.  We want to share that.  We have come
 21       together and we have stuck together for a number of
 22       years in the hope that one day we would be sitting
 23       before a panel that would understand -- we have spent a
 24       lot of time to go, you know, just to explain the
 25       difference between ethnocultural, broadcasting and


  1       multicultural broadcasting.
  2  790                  For many, they were still locked in
  3       the 1985 aspects of the Broadcasting Act.  But we have
  4       been working at this since 1991, after the new act came
  5       in.  We have lived with it, we have crochet our
  6       application, and we are here before you today with all
  7       our cards on the table.  We have absolutely nothing to
  8       hide.  We have some to learn but there are things that
  9       remain slightly academic until we get the chance to
 10       prove this, until the chance to go out and see what
 11       these independent producers can do and how we can
 12       motivate them to start seeing the country in its true
 13       light, not producing things that look American for
 14       Americans, yet we count that as Canadian production.
 15  791                  That is not our park.  That is
 16       someone else's bailiwick.  They can get the credits for
 17       that and you can call upon them for how they invest
 18       their money.  But here, with our limitations of budgets
 19       and so on and so forth, we try to be realistic, but
 20       each thing will be tested.
 21  792                  I say to you, unless we are able to
 22       prove to you within three years, not the full term of
 23       licence which most people would ask you, I am saying
 24       within the first three years, that we can correct that,
 25       then on the fourth year I make that a condition of


  1       licence that you can call for new applications and that
  2       we would have the opportunity of course to reapply.
  3  793                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
  4       --- Laughter / Rires
  5  794                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  On that note, we
  6       will take a 15 minute break.  Thank you very much.
  7       --- Upon recessing at 1100 / Suspension à 1100
  8       --- Upon resuming at 1115 / Reprise à 1115
  9  795                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A
 10       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
 11  796                  Commissioner Pennefather has one or
 12       two points of clarification arising from the earlier
 13       discussion.
 14  797                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 15       Mr. Chairman.
 16  798                  Indeed, could we just clarify, in the
 17       Canadian programming one-third of the programming is in
 18       the French language, as I understand it.
 19  799                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.
 20  800                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The
 21       remaining two-thirds will be in what language?
 22  801                  MR. IANNUZZI:  In English.
 23  802                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  English
 24       only.  Will there be any other third language
 25       programming in the Canadian programming in a language


  1       other than English?
  2  803                  MR. IANNUZZI:  It is not our
  3       intention to produce third language programming unless
  4       of course we are doing a documentary and the occasion
  5       lends itself to people speaking their own language
  6       within the documentary or the program and we would be
  7       subtitling that portion.
  8  804                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So
  9       minority language producers will be producing in
 10       English essentially for the service.
 11  805                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Or French.
 12  806                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Or French.
 13  807                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Correctly.  Yes.
 14  808                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 15  809                  On the foreign language, the world
 16       programming, we did ask this but I wasn't sure I was
 17       clear on your answer, how much of that programming will
 18       be in English and how much will be in French?  The
 19       world programming.
 20  810                  MR. IANNUZZI:  We don't have that
 21       broken down because the choices that we have open to us
 22       as far as world programming and the countries that do
 23       have English as their language, language franca, would
 24       lead us to say that we want to keep that to a minimum
 25       without ignoring the products coming from those


  1       countries that English is their language, as in the
  2       case with French.
  3  811                  We are saying that as far as French
  4       is concerned, it is something we can measure much
  5       better at this particular time without having the full
  6       experience of putting a schedule to bed over the first
  7       year.  But in the case of the French language
  8       programming, we would think that we would have
  9       approximately an additional six hours coming out of our
 10       world programming.
 11  812                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So of the
 12       world programming total, are you saying six hours will
 13       be in French?
 14  813                  MR. IANNUZZI:  A minimum of six hours
 15       would be French dialogue.
 16  814                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right. 
 17       It is getting a little clearer.
 18  815                  You understand where we are coming
 19       from on this one as well.  The proportion of the world
 20       programming that is in English is one thing; the
 21       proportion of the world programming that is in French
 22       is another.  You are only able to tell us how much of
 23       the world programming will be in French.
 24  816                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Right.
 25  817                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Six hours


  1       minimum.
  2  818                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Right.  But I wouldn't
  3       believe that the English would go beyond 12 hours a
  4       week, as an example, but it is not a commitment at this
  5       particular point.  I am just saying that the spirit of
  6       what we tried to build into some of these conditions of
  7       licence are actually showing that our preference is to
  8       cover as many of the countries, and that is why we have
  9       even specified a minimum number of countries to be
 10       covered and a minimum number of languages to have
 11       within our schedule.  We want these as conditions of
 12       licence that, prior to closing today, we would want to
 13       submit all of that to the Commission.
 14  819                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 15       Mr. Iannuzzi.  Those are the follow-up questions on
 16       programming.
 17  820                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 18  821                  Mr. Marchant, did you want to now
 19       make your comments?
 20  822                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes, I would,
 21       Mr. Chairman.
 22  823                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go ahead.
 23  824                  MR. MARCHANT:  I will be brief. 
 24       Thank you for the opportunity.
 25  825                  As I said when I raised the matter


  1       this morning, the principles on which we approach this
  2       are that it be grounded in the Broadcasting Act and
  3       consistent with the Broadcasting Act; and, second, be
  4       consistent with administrative law principles of
  5       fairness.
  6  826                  The exceptional importance test is
  7       set out in Public Notice 1997-33 as follows:
  8                              "Applications proposing new
  9                              English and French language
 10                              services that are premised on
 11                              carriage on basic tier or on a
 12                              high penetration discretionary
 13                              tier must justify such
 14                              distribution on the basis of
 15                              agreements with distributors or
 16                              on the basis of evidence
 17                              demonstrating the exceptional
 18                              importance of the proposed
 19                              service to the achievement of
 20                              the objectives of the
 21                              Broadcasting Act."  (As read)
 22  827                  I am not going to address the
 23       question of agreements with distributors.  I won't take
 24       your time with that.  We think there are some problems
 25       with that, but I won't take your time today with that.


  1  828                  What is meant by exceptional
  2       importance?  We feel a fair standard is one which is
  3       defined and defined in advance.  In Decision 757 -- we
  4       will use that shorthand, if I may, to refer to
  5       2001-757  -- exceptional importance was defined
  6       retroactively or it was undefined.  The majority said
  7       our Canadian content levels weren't high enough.
  8  829                  The dissenting Commissioner prepared
  9       a chart showing that WTM's Canadian content was
 10       superior to many other services which had been given
 11       the carriage WTM was asking for.  So it appeared to us
 12       that for WTM there was a different, undefined standard,
 13       that WTM had to meet, or maybe that because it was
 14       undefined it never could meet it.
 15  830                  Also in Decision 757, WTM was judged
 16       retroactively as inadequate in peak time.  In Building
 17       on Success, the Commission said peak time applied only
 18       to conventional networks.  It specifically did not
 19       apply to specialty services.
 20  831                  In addition, peak time was defined in
 21       Building on Success as 7:00 to 11:00 p.m.  Yet in 757,
 22       and I refer to paragraphs 22, 23 and 26, WTM was found
 23       wanting against a peak time standard and against an
 24       even higher standard than Global, CTV and TVA, 8:00
 25       to 11:00.


  1  832                  In its submission of April 8, WTM
  2       proposes to meet the standard set in building on
  3       success for conventional networks even though it is not
  4       a conventional network:  a minimum of three hours
  5       priority programs as defined in Building on Success, in
  6       peak time as defined in Building on Success.
  7  833                  Let me turn to defining exceptional
  8       importance as meaning unique.  It was pointed out that
  9       WTM had described itself as unique in its submission. 
 10       I haven't done a search but this is an adjective which
 11       I am confident is used by almost every applicant which
 12       appears before you, but not every applicant or licensee
 13       is summoned to meet that high, possibly moveable bar as
 14       a standard.
 15  834                  I think it is important to note the
 16       two specific contexts in which WTM describes itself as
 17       unique in its April 8 submission.  It does so twice in
 18       relation to two Broadcasting Act objectives other than
 19       3(1)(d)(iii).
 20  835                  On page 12, the objective which is
 21       summarized as "broadcasting system primarily in the
 22       English and French languages, the first bullet says:
 23                              "A unique program package which
 24                              no one else provides subtitled
 25                              in both official languages,


  1                              complementary to other existing
  2                              services."  (As read)
  3  836                  The second reference comes at page 41
  4       to page 42 under the heading "Foreign Programming". 
  5       That section begins by reciting paragraph 3(1)(i) of
  6       the Broadcasting Act, that provided by the Canadian
  7       broadcasting system should:
  8                              "(1) be varied and
  9                              comprehensive, providing a
 10                              balance of information,
 11                              enlightenment and entertainment
 12                              for men, women and children of
 13                              all ages, interests and tastes;
 14                              (2) be drawn from local,
 15                              regional, national and
 16                              international sources;" 
 17                              (As read)
 18  837                  I will skip to (4):
 19                              "provide a reasonable
 20                              opportunity for the public to be
 21                              exposed to the expression of
 22                              differing views on matters of
 23                              public concern."  (As read)
 24  838                  The recitation of that section is
 25       followed by the following sentence:


  1                              "WTM's world programming is
  2                              unique.  In the English language
  3                              broadcasting system in Canada,
  4                              international programming means
  5                              overwhelmingly American
  6                              programming, which also
  7                              dominates prime time.
  8                              Foreign programming on French
  9                              language services includes but
 10                              is less dominated by American
 11                              series and films.  WTM's
 12                              programming will be truly
 13                              international, drawn from many
 14                              countries."  (As read)
 15  839                  Mr. Chairman, WTM is unique in the
 16       sense that it is differentiated from other services. 
 17       Even the majority in Decision 757 concluded on page 1
 18       that, and I am putting the word WTM in instead of the
 19       indefinite article, the WTM service would complement
 20       existing mainstream, multilingual and third language
 21       services.
 22  840                  There are also important elements of
 23       the WTM service which are unique.  But WTM did not
 24       propose that exceptional importance be defined as
 25       "unique".  No service, not WTM, not CBC Newsworld, not


  1       Bravo!, not TSN, not arTV, not APTN, not the Weather
  2       Channel, not MuchMusic can be totally unique.  If any
  3       applicant or licensee depended on being completely
  4       unique it would never get a licence or never get
  5       appropriate carriage.
  6  841                  If unwavering uniqueness is a
  7       standard WTM must meet, it is a standard it cannot
  8       meet, it is a standard it should not be asked to meet,
  9       because the extreme danger in the standard of
 10       uniqueness is that it also becomes a unique standard, a
 11       standard that only WTM is summoned to reach.
 12  842                  We believe that a standard which
 13       applies only to one applicant or licensee would be, if
 14       I may use the language of the jurisprudence in this
 15       area, a patently unreasonable standard.  There is a way
 16       out of this dilemma I submit.  It is based on the
 17       Broadcasting Act, it is based on fundamental principles
 18       of fairness, and it gives the Commission a fair
 19       latitude for inquiry and for decision.  That standard
 20       we submit is twofold.
 21  843                  First, it is all the relevant
 22       objectives of the act, each given significant weight in
 23       accordance with parliament's intent.  Second, WTM is
 24       compared to actual services which have actual carriage
 25       which make actual contributions to some objectives and


  1       not others.  The comparative approach is a patently
  2       reasonable approach.  It is the approach which best
  3       tracks the Commission's actual decision so they are
  4       comparable from decision to decision.
  5  844                  As set out in our April 8 submission,
  6       WTM will make a contribution to 29 objectives of the
  7       act.  It asks to be compared, on a fair basis, with a
  8       contribution to the act of comparable services.  If WTM
  9       has Canadian content levels comparable to Bravo! or
 10       arTV, WTM should be treated as comparable and
 11       considered for similar carriage.  If WTM projects to
 12       mainstream audiences, central characteristics of
 13       Canadian society, as defined by parliament, like APTN,
 14       it should be treated as comparable and considered for
 15       similar carriage.
 16  845                  If WTM reflects and connections the
 17       multicultural communities of Canada as well or better
 18       than CBC Newsworld or TVA outside Quebec, it should be
 19       treated as comparable and considered for similar
 20       carriage.
 21  846                  Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, there is
 22       one corollary point that I think we need to raise and I
 23       again refer to section 17 of the Broadcasting Act.  The
 24       Commission has the authority to determine questions of
 25       fact or law in relation to any matter within its


  1       jurisdiction.  A key premise, a key stated premise of
  2       the exceptional importance test, is that there is a
  3       shortage of analog capacity.
  4  847                  There are two points we believe are
  5       critical.  First, for the purposes of the Broadcasting
  6       Act, analog capacity must mean total capacity.  It
  7       cannot mean vacant capacity.  Total capacity is the
  8       only concept consistent with paragraph 3(1)(t) of the
  9       act which says distributional undertakings:
 10                              "(1) should give priority to the
 11                              carriage of Canadian programming
 12                              services; and
 13                              (2) should provide efficient
 14                              delivery of programming at
 15                              affordable rates, using the most
 16                              effective technologies available
 17                              at reasonable cost."  (As read)
 18  848                  Total capacity is the only concept
 19       consistent with the definition of available capacity in
 20       the distribution regulations which basically sets out,
 21       as you know, a core set of channels and then looks
 22       beyond that at what channels are available.
 23  849                  Promoting digital carriage. 
 24       Technological diversity does come within the purview of
 25       the Commission under subsection 5(2), but cultural


  1       diversity, multicultural diversity, linguistic duality
  2       are in section 3.  The Commission has been charged by
  3       parliament with giving priority to section 3 over
  4       section 5.
  5  850                  Finally, Mr. Chairman, there is an
  6       important question of fact.  We believe the Commission
  7       should reconsider the cable industry representation if
  8       there is a shortage of analog capacity.  Between the
  9       last WTM hearing, when the CCTA proclaimed a shortage
 10       of analog capacity, and this hearing, there has been a
 11       large increase in analog capacity.  There is a simple
 12       reason, we believe, for that.  Most of the coaxial
 13       cable has a 1 gigahertz capacity and it is a matter of
 14       lighting up additional capacity which many systems have
 15       done.
 16  851                  In our replies to interventions,
 17       because this material was not available to us on
 18       April 8, we only got it later, we point out that the
 19       number of systems with more than 61 channels went from,
 20       if my memory serves me and I'm sorry I don't have it in
 21       front of me, a little over 80 per cent to 99 per cent. 
 22       The number with more than 71 channels analog went from
 23       56 or 57 per cent to over 90 per cent just in the few
 24       months between our last hearing and this one.  They
 25       have not been harvesting analog channels to make room


  1       for digital.  They have not come to you and said,
  2       "Please do not licence services in Vancouver,
  3       multilingual, or in southern Ontario, two services,
  4       because we can't accommodate them on analog capacity."
  5  852                  So finally, in conclusion,
  6       Mr. Chairman, we believe there is an important question
  7       of fact in the context of total capacity, which we
  8       believe is the relevant standard under the Broadcasting
  9       Act.
 10  853                  I thank you Commissioners, for your
 11       time.
 12  854                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 13       Mr. Marchant.
 14  855                  Counsel, have you any comment?
 15  856                  MR. HOWARD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 16       I  have no comments.
 17  857                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 18  858                  Mr. Marchant, I have just one or two
 19       questions arising from what you said.
 20  859                  I take one of your points to be that
 21       in applying the exceptional importance standard of
 22       1997-33, that uniqueness is too hard a test and that
 23       that should not be the test of exceptional importance. 
 24       Is that correct?
 25  860                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  Although I think


  1       that where there are unique elements to a licence or an
  2       application, it can contribute to that.
  3  861                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Okay.  I
  4       think I understand your point.
  5  862                  As you know, the test for licensing
  6       of the Commission is implementation of the objectives
  7       of the Broadcasting Act, generally speaking, as you
  8       have said.  In 1997-33, the Commission, in respect of
  9       carriage as distinct from licensing, and in particular
 10       in respect to analog carriage or high penetration,
 11       whether basic or high penetration discretionary, set up
 12       the test of exceptional importance.
 13  863                  As I understand this proceeding, this
 14       is what you are trying to establish, that in fact your
 15       service, for the reasons we have discussed and will be
 16       discussing, meets that test and therefore should
 17       qualify for that carriage.  Is that a fair summary?
 18  864                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  But I would like
 19       to say that it can only be done if the exceptional
 20       importance test can in fact be grounded in the
 21       Broadcasting Act.  So I don't think it can be kind of
 22       invited outside the act.  Some of our opposing
 23       intervenors, it seems to me, take the latter approach. 
 24       They simply see it as a standalone test.  It has to be
 25       one which can be grounded in, elaborated with reference


  1       to, the Broadcasting Act and specifically section 3 or
  2       subsection 3(1).
  3  865                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I couldn't agree
  4       with you more since it says, "the exceptional
  5       importance of the proposed service to the achievement
  6       of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act."  So I think
  7       we are in agreement on those points.  If that was a
  8       problem, then I think we have cleared it hopefully
  9       away.
 10  866                  I would now ask Commissioner
 11       Pennefather to continue.
 12  867                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 13       Mr. Chairman.
 14  868                  We will move on to questions on
 15       distribution.
 16  869                  My task right now is quite
 17       straightforward.  It is one of clarification, in other
 18       words, questions on the distribution options just by
 19       making sure that we understand the options as you have
 20       presented them, what is on the table, what is not, and
 21       how you understand those objectives. 
 22  870                  As per your submission April 8, I
 23       have two sections.  The first section is Options for
 24       Distribution in Language of the Majority; the, second,
 25       Options for Distribution and Language of the Minority.


  1       Okay.
  2  871                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I would like to ask
  3       Ken Marchant to start that off because there are some
  4       legal aspects to this as well, and how we want to bring
  5       this down.
  6  872                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Sure.
  7  873                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Ken.
  8  874                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If I could
  9       ask the question --
 10  875                  MR. MARCHANT:  I will answer the
 11       question.
 12  876                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right. 
 13       I followed actually the breakdown you have in your
 14       submission, so I thought that was a clear approach. 
 15       But again, what we are doing here in this section is
 16       just understanding the options you have proposed,
 17       making sure we agree on what those options are.  I have
 18       some questions about that.
 19  877                  The first, if we look -- again, I am
 20       referring to the executive summary, page i, where you
 21       have listed those options in paragraphs 3 and 4, so
 22       that is the starting point.
 23  878                  The Commission's definition of
 24       modified dual status for specialty services is, and I
 25       quote:


  1                              "The service is distributed on a
  2                              discretionary basis unless both
  3                              the service and the BDU agree to
  4                              basic carriage."  (As read)
  5  879                  In the April submission, in fact
  6       paragraph 3(c), you present one of your distribution
  7       options in the following way:  modified dual status on
  8       the highest penetration tier as proposed in the WTM
  9       application or in accordance with Decision 2000-386,
 10       which is the Télé des Arts decision.
 11  880                  My first question:  are you
 12       presenting here in this (c) two entirely different
 13       options or do you consider them interchangeable?  In
 14       other words, is the modified dual status on the highest
 15       penetration tier to you the same as Decision 2000-386?
 16  881                  MR. MARCHANT:  I think they are not
 17       exactly the same.  I think I should answer this
 18       question by referring back to the previous hearing
 19       which accounts for why it is here.
 20  882                  The application on the basis of which
 21       decision -- the filed application for Decision 757
 22       asked for a highest penetration tier in majority
 23       language markets.  At the hearing, there was discussion
 24       about this and there was some encouragement to look at
 25       other options.  The question of the arTV decision was


  1       raised and in the concluding remarks, using the Télé
  2       des Arts decision as a regulatory model for majority
  3       language markets was offered by WTM.  I think we used
  4       the figure -- a minimum tier of 60 per cent coverage is
  5       what we used, so I say the spirit of the carriage is
  6       modified dual status on a high penetration tier.
  7  883                  I would also note there is that
  8       language in the exceptional importance test paragraph. 
  9       There is a little bit of play, if you will, between
 10       those two.  The central concept I think is the same.
 11  884                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let's be
 12       sure that we understand the two points.  On the Télé
 13       des Arts model, let's just go through that model to be
 14       sure that we understand the same thing.
 15  885                  In Decision 2000-386, Télé des Arts,
 16       the decision on distribution, the result of the
 17       decision is, and I think this was discussed at length
 18       at the previous hearing, that Télé des Arts is not able
 19       to negotiate with the distributor to be placed on
 20       basic.  Furthermore, that carriage on the highest
 21       penetration tier would be subject to the extent of
 22       available channels as defined in the regulations.
 23  886                  Is that your understanding of the
 24       Télé des Arts decision?  In other words, as was
 25       discussed with you at the June hearing, the Télé des


  1       Arts model, the result would be you would not be able
  2       to be carried on basic in the market of the majority. 
  3       Do you agree that that is the model of 2000-386?
  4  887                  MR. MARCHANT:  Commissioner
  5       Pennefather, I am wondering if I might be of assistance
  6       both to the WTM and to you, if I could just reserve
  7       that question and check and get back to you.  Might I
  8       do it that way?
  9  888                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's
 10       fine.  So I will just leave the discussion of the Télé
 11       des Arts model because obviously we have to be clear on
 12       what your understanding of the model is.
 13  889                  MR. MARCHANT:  I didn't meant to
 14       unduly -- I would like to co-operate in pursuing the
 15       lines of questions you wish to -- perhaps if we were to
 16       say this, because it is a very critical point.  The
 17       worst case scenario for WTM, consistent with viability,
 18       is carriage on the highest penetration tier in majority
 19       language markets.  I think we should perhaps work on
 20       that assumption that anything that significantly
 21       compromises that significantly compromises viability.
 22  890                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just to be
 23       clear, and you may want to get back on this point, the
 24       Télé des Arts model as I have just gone through it with
 25       you and as it reads in Decision 2000-386, the result of


  1       using that same model is you would not be carried in
  2       the majority market on basic.  There is that model.
  3  891                  Note that in paragraph (c) you said,
  4       "that or modified dual status on a highest penetration
  5       tier", which is a different option then.  Do you agree? 
  6       So in that paragraph you have two different options, in
  7       paragraph (c).
  8  892                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes, I would agree
  9       that they are different.
 10  893                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.  It
 11       is just so that we are clear on what you are saying
 12       here.
 13  894                  On the matter of the modified dual
 14       status on the highest penetration tier, you did table
 15       an option at the last hearing, and you just mentioned
 16       it, for 60 per cent or more penetration.  Is that
 17       option still on the table?
 18  895                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Again, we were
 19       committed to that at that time, trying to rather than
 20       raise the standard lower the standard in order to get
 21       at least modified dual status and satisfy the cable
 22       industry as far as the penetration level.  But as we
 23       look at it today, we would think that we would want the
 24       absolute highest penetration that would be somewhere
 25       closer to the 75 per cent level rather than the 60.


  1  896                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Once
  2       again, let's be clear.  You have just tabled I think
  3       another option.  We had better go back to that.
  4  897                  The revised list of options that you
  5       have here in the April 8 submission, are those the
  6       options you wish us to consider?  Have you dropped the
  7       options which were discussed at the hearing in June,
  8       inclusive of the 60 per cent tier?  We will get to your
  9       last point in a moment.
 10  898                  MR. MARCHANT:  We will provide a sort
 11       of final clarification with you, if you will, but
 12       consistent with the order in council asking for an
 13       assessment of options, which we believe should be
 14       qualified as consistent with viability, yes a clear
 15       option is not being carried on basic, if that is the
 16       spirit of your point about ATR, but being carried
 17       instead on a high or the highest penetration
 18       discretionary tier.  Yes, that is a clear option and it
 19       has clear implications not only for WTM but, for
 20       example, for the cable industry that we later
 21       discussed.
 22  899                  So if it is a matter of clarifying
 23       these options, I'm sorry, that is one of the purposes
 24       of this exchange I would believe --
 25  900                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's


  1       right.
  2  901                  MR. MARCHANT:  -- yes, not being
  3       carried on basic but being carried on the highest or a
  4       very high penetration tier is an option, yes.
  5  902                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
  6  903                  In your amendments again, if we look
  7       at 3(b) in that list, another option you have listed
  8       is:  dual status as proposed by the dissenting
  9       Commissioner in Decision 2000-393.  In saying that, are
 10       you referring to Decision 393 where WTM had applied for
 11       approval only on condition of dual status distribution? 
 12       Is that your meaning there?
 13  904                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 14  905                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 15  906                  In this case, neither the decision
 16       nor the additional information you have submitted
 17       indicates your proposed distribution plans for MDS and
 18       DTH under this option.  Can you provide those to us?
 19  907                  MR. MARCHANT:  DTH would be included. 
 20       MDS is something I guess we are prepared to have a
 21       discussion about.
 22  908                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So you
 23       will get back and provide us with what your option is
 24       in terms of MDS if we take this route of 2000-393?
 25  909                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.


  1  910                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You have
  2       not also specified any proposed distribution
  3       obligations for Class 3s in your filed amendments.  Are
  4       the Class 3 obligations similar to your original
  5       application whereby in all of your distribution options
  6       in the language of the majority, carriage of your
  7       service would be at the discretion of the Class 3
  8       distributor?
  9  911                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 10  912                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If we look
 11       now at the 3(a) on your list, one of the options you
 12       have proposed, when offered in the language of the
 13       majority, is the same basic carriage as the Commission
 14       has granted APTN in Decision 199-42 and TVA in Decision
 15       98-488.  To achieve this same distribution status, is
 16       it your expectation that if the Commission were to
 17       approve this option that the Commission would issue a
 18       mandatory distribution order as provided for in
 19       section 9(1)(h) of the act?
 20  913                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 21  914                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In so
 22       saying then, this would require all Class 1 and Class 2
 23       distribution undertakings, including MDS and DTH, to
 24       carry your service.  This broad distribution option
 25       would grant WTM mandatory carriage on systems


  1       representing a vast majority of Canadian subscribers. 
  2       What reasons do you have for requesting that the
  3       Commission take such extraordinary measures to ensure
  4       mandatory distribution of WTM and how does WTM in
  5       responding, could you tell us how you then compare to
  6       APTN/TVA?
  7  915                  MR. MARCHANT:  Let's take a brief
  8       step back here.
  9  916                  The power to order carriage under
 10       section 9(1)(h) is a new power given to the Commission
 11       by the 1991 Broadcasting Act.  It was part of a package
 12       of amendments that parliament proposed.  I would submit
 13       that it is a reasonable interpretation that in changing
 14       the objectives of the broadcasting policy and
 15       refashioning them to the extent that parliament did,
 16       and in particular the emphasis it gave to new
 17       objectives, in particular to ones with the words
 18       "multicultural" associated with them, that there are
 19       three such objectives where that term is used.  The
 20       only other concept which is mentioned more frequently
 21       in subsection 3(1) is linguistic duality.
 22  917                  I guess it is our belief that because
 23       WTM is a service which reflects a central
 24       characteristic of our country in such a substantial
 25       way, in much the same way that the Aboriginal Peoples


  1       Television Network expresses a very central
  2       characteristic of our country in much the same way that
  3       national carriage for the French language commercial
  4       network, making that available to all francophones and
  5       francophiles across the country, reflects a central
  6       characteristic that WTM is a candidate for similar
  7       treatment.  I guess that is the short answer to it.
  8  918                  We have provided, in addition, an
  9       extensive range -- and we don't just mean this as a
 10       laundry list.  I mean, we gave a lot of time and
 11       thought to that.
 12  919                  Dan Iannuzzi is the pioneer in this
 13       field in fashioning this application and does so as a
 14       committed Canadian.  So when we list the 29 objectives
 15       of the Broadcasting Act that we are making a
 16       contribution to, I appreciate that some are more
 17       important than others but it does matter to us that
 18       this is a service in both of Canada's official
 19       languages, that we are catering to both groups.  We are
 20       trying to do it in a sensitive way, as Rock Demers
 21       outlined this morning, because we know there is another
 22       objective there that says even though we are a single
 23       service, even within that single service we are trying
 24       to respect the important differences between our
 25       official language communities.


  1  920                  So the second part of the answer,
  2       Commissioner Pennefather, is that WTM believes it makes
  3       a very substantial contribution to the objectives of
  4       the act and particularly to the new objectives to the
  5       act that we believe are the reason parliament gave you
  6       that power in section 9(1)(h).
  7  921                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just on
  8       this point if you would, to expand the discussion just
  9       a bit more, on page 11 of the April submission you say
 10       that WTM is a specialty service and its importance
 11       should be judged in relation to other specialty
 12       services.  In that same section you say what appears to
 13       be a contradictory thing saying that WTM should be
 14       licensed for carriage on a basis similar to services
 15       which serve similarly broad spectrum audiences.
 16  922                  Neither TVA nor APTN are specialty
 17       services.  You are applying, you have a specialty
 18       licence, your nature of service is specialty.  In this
 19       option you are seeking mandatory distribution rights
 20       which are superior to all other specialty services and
 21       equivalent to APTN/TVA, even though they are not
 22       specialty services.  Could you help us understand how
 23       we should accept this distribution office in what
 24       appears to be a situation of contradictory statements
 25       here?


  1  923                  MR. MARCHANT:  I am very pleased to
  2       get that question.  That is one we have wrestled with
  3       and I have wrestled with.  You know, I have done a lot
  4       of key word searches trying to get a clear answer to
  5       that.
  6  924                  Specialty, as far as I can tell, is a
  7       regulatory category whose precise contact and criteria
  8       are ones I am not able to establish, so when a service
  9       like APTN is licensed let me say I, particularly as
 10       somebody who has worked a lot in the aboriginal field,
 11       so welcome that decision, but APTN is a service that
 12       looks a lot like a specialty in the ordinary sense of
 13       that word.  The kind of programming that it is
 14       presenting is of -- you know, it has got a particular
 15       theme, as it well should given its mandate.
 16  925                  I think yesterday Mr. Iannuzzi
 17       mentioned that WTM's programming, being different and
 18       unique and reflective of the multicultural character of
 19       our country, is also one of the important elements.
 20  926                  What led APTN, although it was
 21       offering a specialty category of programming theme, to
 22       be considered and then licensed under 9(1)(h) was, as I
 23       read that decision, or the critical thing was, that it
 24       was directed to mainstream audiences.  It was going to
 25       bring the aboriginal people's perspective and


  1       aboriginal theme programming and make it available on
  2       every television screen in Canada that it could be
  3       provided on.
  4  927                  A second rationale, an important one,
  5       again directly relating to objectives of the
  6       Broadcasting Act, was to provide the necessary
  7       resources to ensure carriage to generate the revenue
  8       stream that they needed.  Now, there is a specific
  9       provision, as you know, in the act that as resources
 10       become available it is important to get aboriginal
 11       program services.
 12  928                  There is a more general one that says
 13       as resources become available services should be
 14       provided across Canada in both Canada's official
 15       languages.  We believe that supports, in conjunction
 16       with the other objectives of the act, the service that
 17       WTM is offering.
 18  929                  So the word specialty, we offer a
 19       specialty in the sense of a particular approach and a
 20       particular kind of programming, but like APTN, we reach
 21       out to all Canadians, to the mainstream audience.  Like
 22       APTN and like arTV, this service needs adequate
 23       resources which will come substantially from
 24       subscription revenues.
 25  930                  It will also be advertiser-supported,


  1       which we welcome as a very important discipline because
  2       advertisers support programs that people are watching. 
  3       But for those two reasons, mainstream audience and
  4       adequate resources, all understood in relation to the
  5       objectives of the Broadcasting Act, we believe that WTM
  6       is a candidate for 9(1)(h).
  7  931                  The word specialty we think is a
  8       flexible term and I think it is more a question of the
  9       regulatory choice that you ultimately will make about
 10       carriage.
 11  932                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 12  933                  Let's move now to the section of
 13       paragraph 4 in your executive summary, the section on
 14       language of the minority again to clarify the options
 15       you have tabled.
 16  934                  The first question.  In your original
 17       application and confirmed at the last hearing, you
 18       stated that where WTM is offered in language of the
 19       minority that you were seeking digital carriage on
 20       cable.  In the additional information, that is, in the
 21       April 8 submission, it appears you have changed this
 22       request to Category 1 digital where analog not
 23       available.
 24  935                  First of all, have you dropped the
 25       initial option for minority market carriage; and,


  1       secondly, can you explain what Category 1 digital where
  2       analog capacity not available means?
  3  936                  MR. MARCHANT:  Let me first say that
  4       the spirit of these options, as with the previous
  5       discussion, was to try to address the challenge of the
  6       order in council to set out options.
  7  937                  With respect to Category 1 digital
  8       where analog capacity is not available -- and I
  9       apologize for the fact that there is a misprint there,
 10       it seems to be "analogy"; oh, it got corrected, I'm
 11       sorry; in my copy it is not -- I think this is a
 12       commons sense matter, that if there is analog capacity
 13       available for that, and I think we mean that in the
 14       discretion of the cable or DTH distributor, we might
 15       not put this service on.  Why keep it off analog when
 16       there is capacity available?  The concept of Category 1
 17       digital is to make sure it is carried because it is an
 18       important service.
 19  938                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So when
 20       you state Category 1 digital, you are asking then for
 21       the same access rights for WTM in the language of the
 22       minority as Category 1 digital services have been
 23       given?
 24  939                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 25  940                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Back


  1       again, just so I am sure I understand, to the proposals
  2       and Category 1 digital where analog capacity is not
  3       available, just a couple of scenarios so that we can
  4       see if we understood you.
  5  941                  If a particular system's channels
  6       were fully occupied on analog, no matter what services
  7       those channels contained, would WTM accept mandatory
  8       digital carriage?  In its minority, yes.
  9  942                  MR. MARCHANT:  In minority markets,
 10       yes.
 11  943                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Do you
 12       mean that in the absence of available channels as
 13       defined in the regulations you will accept mandatory
 14       digital carriage?  Is that what you mean in this
 15       proposal?
 16  944                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  As defined in
 17       the regulations, yes, but only minority.
 18  945                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Minority
 19       again.  That is why we have separated the sections, to
 20       be clear.
 21  946                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  Yes, yes, yes.
 22  947                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Again,
 23       your amendments do not contain a specific DTH/MDS
 24       distribution requests for WTM and language of the
 25       minority.  Are you requesting mandatory carriage on DTH


  1       and MDS in the language of the minority?
  2  948                  MR. MARCHANT:  On DTH, yes.  On MDS,
  3       we are going to give you a clarification later today.
  4  949                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay.
  5  950                  In your original proposal, again in
  6       the language of the minority you stated that you were
  7       requesting digital carriage on cable, DTH and MDS in
  8       the most favourable French language package or tier in
  9       an anglophone market and in the most favourable English
 10       language package or tier in a francophone market.  Your
 11       latest submission did not contain a stipulation.  Have
 12       you dropped this request which specifies placement
 13       within packages or digital tiers?
 14  951                  MR. MARCHANT:  No.
 15  952                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So your
 16       request remains?
 17  953                  MR. MARCHANT:  That request stands,
 18       yes.
 19  954                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In a
 20       letter in response to interventions dated May 1, 2002,
 21       again discussing distribution language of the minority
 22       you used the term "mandatory discretionary carriage in
 23       minority language markets".  Could you just clarify for
 24       us if that is the same as what we have just discussed
 25       or another option that you have put on the table?


  1  955                  MR. MARCHANT:  I think it is the same
  2       and I am sorry that I don't know which -- we wrote a
  3       lot of letters that day.  We had a total of three
  4       business days to reply to interventions.  I think what
  5       we filed -- anyway, we had a very short time.
  6  956                  Let me say this.  In our submission
  7       we actually set out two options, both of which are
  8       consistent with mandatory discretionary.  You know, one
  9       is Category 1 digital where analog not available and
 10       the other is modified dual status in some version of
 11       the Télé des Arts approach.  We identified both of
 12       those in our submission and I think in our replies to
 13       interventions we had both concepts in mind.
 14  957                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  For the
 15       minority language?
 16  958                  MR. MARCHANT:  For minority language
 17       markets, yes.  There are some pricing issues that at
 18       some point we might want to get to because we have
 19       given some thought to them with respect to minority
 20       language markets.
 21  959                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I am sure
 22       we will get to that.  My colleague will continue with
 23       some questioning but, again, if we look at what was in
 24       the original proposal and what is here, certainly we
 25       see what is in the submission here as your proposed


  1       options and in the course of our discussion you have
  2       retabled or not options that were discussed in the
  3       previous hearing and in your original application and
  4       if that is not clear could you get back to us on that
  5       point?  It wasn't clear to me which of the original
  6       proposals remain on the table and which do not.
  7  960                  MR. MARCHANT:  Yes, we will get back
  8       to you although I -- yes, we will get back to you.
  9  961                  COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 10  962                  Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.
 11  963                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 12  964                  Commissioner McKendry.
 13  965                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you,
 14       Mr. Chair.
 15  966                  I have a couple of questions for you
 16       to follow on Commissioner Pennefather's questions
 17       because we want to make sure we understand the
 18       distribution aspects of your application.  We would
 19       like to clarify those with you.  Then I will have some
 20       questions for you on the financial aspects of your
 21       proposal, particularly the rate, the wholesale rate
 22       that you are proposing.
 23  967                  Have you had any discussions with the
 24       cable distributors about distribution of your service?
 25  968                  MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  My experience has


  1       been over the last decade that each time we have
  2       approached the cable industry trying to meet with what
  3       they call new services committees, these are ad hoc
  4       committees and they never seem to be in place at the
  5       time the new service, at least in our case, when you
  6       are trying to meet and discuss the matters with them.
  7  969                  I have discussed with the president
  8       of the CCTA, on a couple of occasions, what our plans
  9       were, what our service was, to see if we couldn't come
 10       to a meeting of the minds and get off their mindset
 11       what our service was.
 12  970                  We have written to every cable
 13       operator, and I have done this probably four times to
 14       be exact, and maybe it is actually five times, in our
 15       recent history, the latest one being the last time we
 16       filed our application we wrote every cable operator in
 17       the country and, believe it or not, we did not get one
 18       reply.
 19  971                  In checking back with these people
 20       they say, "Our association speaks for us on that
 21       particular matter".  So in my earlier life of WTM, I
 22       have actually travelled this country.  I have been from
 23       Fundy Cable all the way out to British Columbia.  I
 24       have spoken to just about every, I will call them,
 25       medium and large cable operators and I have never had


  1       the satisfaction.
  2  972                  We have appeared at a CCTA
  3       convention, not this year but certainly the one a year
  4       ago, and we had a booth there trying to get our -- paid
  5       our $5,000 fee for that, our membership and everything
  6       else, trying to get close enough to the cable industry
  7       to let them know who we are, what we are and that we
  8       weren't just another ethnic service competing with one
  9       or two of the country's major cable operators who are,
 10       in essence, themselves in the area of ethnic
 11       broadcasting.  We have gone way out to let them know
 12       that we are a multicultural service.
 13  973                  I attended this convention, was in
 14       the booth with my daughter.  We spoke to some of the
 15       cable operator and we were able to -- once we got the
 16       chance to explain this to a few operators in Alberta,
 17       the Westman in Manitoba, a couple of small operators in
 18       the maritimes, but that was about it.  I mean, they
 19       were nice people who love to talk about their town and
 20       what they are doing and the odd ethnic program that
 21       they have on their community channel, but that is all
 22       we ever got out of them.  There has never been a
 23       commitment for carriage in any way.  So our
 24       relationship with cable and in the case of a digital 2
 25       carriage is absolutely ludicrous.  It is an


  1       impossibility.  I am talking from someone who is on the
  2       outside looking in with his face up against the glass
  3       trying to get some reasonable recognition.
  4  974                  Yet we look at the situation of a
  5       number of the larger companies and people who have a
  6       lot more money than I will ever have, who have gone and
  7       taken up digital 2 licences and still to this day have
  8       not had cable carriage.  Their discussions, from what I
  9       understand, is all a question of negotiations.  It is
 10       not so much of carriage, it is a question of ownership,
 11       it is a question of supply program, all of these
 12       things, that would make it impossible for the future,
 13       for the future of program providers.  That is what we
 14       are, we are program providers, but we need access in
 15       order to have the exhibition of our productions or of
 16       our creativity.
 17  975                  But if we have to stand in line --
 18       and I know that as a personal situation when Channel 47
 19       was first licensed, the pressure that was put on the
 20       Commission at that time.  We appealed in the same way. 
 21       That was the first ethnic or multilingual third
 22       language broadcasting system in the world.  Yet at the
 23       end, with the opposition that was put on by the cable
 24       industry, the Commission then buckled down and made it
 25       so that here we were with one of the high-powered


  1       transmitters on the CN Tower, as large as that of the
  2       CBC, we were limited to greater metropolitan area on
  3       basic service yet under the act we were entitled to a
  4       yard and a half, not just the yard.
  5  976                  It took seven years and four public
  6       hearings before the CRTC corrected that deficiency and
  7       gave the regulatory support Channel 47 required, but it
  8       took six years, and only then did we gain 441,000 extra
  9       basic services in and around Toronto and the Niagara
 10       Peninsula.  That was worth $1 million extra dollars in
 11       the following year in national advertising, which means
 12       that Channel 47 in its first years had been deprived
 13       approximately of $5 million worth of advertising.  Why? 
 14       To satisfy the cable industry and to satisfy the fact
 15       that to move CBS from Channel 4 to Channel 15 where it
 16       still sits today.
 17  977                  That was at the same time that
 18       simultaneous substitution came in.  The same people who
 19       opposed it then, like the ones that are opposing today,
 20       were the beneficiaries of the simultaneous substitution
 21       so that when we went as Channel 47 on to Channel 4 and
 22       moved the Americans up, that gave the Global of the
 23       day, the Citytv, and all of those a chance to get out
 24       there and make hey of another regulation that the CRTC
 25       brought in on the question of simultaneous


  1       substitution.
  2  978                  So what we are seeing here or have
  3       seen -- how today will end up, God only knows, but the
  4       fact is that what we are seeing, if it goes that way,
  5       we will see history repeat itself when it dealt with
  6       things that were ethnic in the early -- in '79.  Here
  7       we are 30 years later, we are dealing with the same
  8       thing, but society, Canada, has changed and yet we are
  9       treating multiculturalism the same way as we treated
 10       ethnoculturalism and the masses of influx of immigrants
 11       at the time when they needed the question of
 12       communications that wasn't there.
 13  979                  Here we are creating something this
 14       wide and then, through regulation, we get it forced
 15       down the funnel so that it comes out this small.  It
 16       need not come out that small.  We have the technology
 17       that God gave us, that ability to create and develop
 18       and this country and every other country around the
 19       world has shared this.  In Australia, they took the
 20       benefits of our creativity on how we would deal with
 21       multiculturalism and they went ahead 20 years before us
 22       and they were given credit.  Canada gave them one of
 23       the highest awards for achievement of multicultural
 24       programming development.
 25  980                  Here we are.  That is why I am saying


  1       dealing with a cable operator is an impossibility. 
  2       Nothing less than basic or dual status would be
  3       satisfactory for the viability of this particular
  4       service or any other service like it in the future.
  5  981                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  You say that
  6       dealing with the cable operator is an impossibility
  7       with respect to your proposed service.  Is that because
  8       the cable operators believe that there isn't sufficient
  9       demand for the service?
 10  982                  MR. IANNUZZI:  If they would have
 11       thought of that they might have mentioned that.  But
 12       they keep talking about the copout, which is the fact
 13       that we would be taking up capacity and for a service
 14       which has limitations because they still keep, they
 15       still keep -- and hopefully, maybe with all the answers
 16       we have given them in their last intervention, and we
 17       have answered Janet Yale on this one here for the fifth
 18       time, that there is a difference between ethnocultural
 19       programming and ethnocultural facilities as against
 20       multicultural as we are applying today.
 21  983                  If you read the interventions of the
 22       cable industry and the CAB, because they sort of --
 23       this last time around they got a little chummier, the
 24       fact is that they spell out, and they used the
 25       Commission for this, they said "and the Commission has


  1       licensed so many of these" --
  2  984                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Iannuzzi, I am
  3       going to have to interrupt because, you know, we are
  4       going to let you say what you have to say and we have
  5       done so but please try and answer the questions. The
  6       question was on demand and I think you answered it
  7       so --
  8  985                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Well, that is his --
  9  986                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.
 10  987                  MR. IANNUZZI:  I am saying they keep
 11       saying that it is the question of the shortage of
 12       capacity, not so much on the demand, because they
 13       compare it to ethnocultural programming rather than
 14       multicultural.
 15  988                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you.
 16  989                  I want to make sure, following on
 17       Commissioner Pennefather's questions, that I understand
 18       or that we understand what you regard to be the most
 19       appropriate distribution option where your service is
 20       offered in the language of the majority and the
 21       language of the minority.  I take it from the
 22       discussion -- and I am looking at the executive summary
 23       of your application, page i -- I would take it from
 24       there then that it is 3(a) and 4(a).  Is that correct?
 25  990                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.


  1  991                  MR. MARCHANT:  That is basic carriage
  2       in accordance with -- we are looking at the executive
  3       summary, 3(a) and 4(a)?
  4  992                  MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, that's correct.
  5  993                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Yes.
  6  994                  MR. IANNUZZI:  His answers are much
  7       shorter than mine.  I will let him answer them all.
  8  995                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  My
  9       understanding now is that you would be looking, if we
 10       approve this application, for two access rights in each
 11       cable system that you would be eligible to be carried
 12       on, and one for the -- it would be the same video feed
 13       but different subtitles, one feed in French subtitles
 14       and one feed in English subtitles.  Is that correct?
 15  996                  MR. IANNUZZI:  They are two services. 
 16       I mean, one is the French service and we treat it as
 17       such.  The other one is the English service and we
 18       treat it as such.  That is why in the major markets we
 19       are looking for the analog basic and in the minority
 20       markets, then we are treating that as you have in other
 21       decisions.
 22  997                  COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Given that
 23       you are looking for two access rights for the same
 24       video feed, and I understand that one is French
 25       subtitled and one is English subtitled, I take it the


  1       feedback you have had from the cable industry is a
  2       capacity concern and a concern I suppose for disruption
  3       of consumers in their viewing habits and so on.  Do you
  4       give any weight at all to those kinds of concerns given
  5       the apparent capacity limitations on analog?
  6  998                  MR. MARCHANT:  Of course we take
  7       seriously any comment by any industry partner.  There
  8       is no question about that.  As I outlined, and if you
  9       wish we can go into more detail, we are somewhat
 10       sceptical about the overall capacity issue.  We do not
 11       think it is supported by the facts.
 12  999                  We also note that there are
 13       realignments that are coming as a result of lots of
 14       other changes, the realignments that BDUs do on their
 15       own motion pretty much every year.  So we do think this
 16       is a manageable manner.
 17  1000                 I would also appeal to the opinion of
 18       Commissioner Wilson in her comments in 757 on this
 19       subject.
 20  1001                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I want to ask
 21       you now about the carriage of your service in the
 22       minority markets.  I take it that you are familiar with
 23       PN2001-25 which deals with distribution rights for the
 24       carriage of language in the minority.
 25  1002                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  If you would


  1       like me to try to get it in front of me I will try to
  2       do that.
  3  1003                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I will give
  4       you a moment to get it in front of you.
  5  1004                 MR. MARCHANT:  Pose your question and
  6       I will see if we can --
  7  1005                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Consistent
  8       with the Commission's regulations with respect to the
  9       distribution of the services in the language of the
 10       minority, all Class 1 and Class 2 cable distributors
 11       using lower capacity digital technology, and that is
 12       less than 750 megahertz, are required to operate at
 13       least on Canadian specialty service in the minority
 14       official language in either analog or digital mode for
 15       every 10 Canadian on non-Canadian programming services
 16       distributed in minority or the majority of official
 17       language.
 18  1006                 As I understand it, your application
 19       would require either some form of mandatory analog or
 20       mandatory digital carriage for your service in the
 21       language of the minority regardless of the system
 22       capacity.  Is that right?
 23  1007                 MR. MARCHANT:  I think in the reply
 24       to the Canadian Cable Systems Alliance intervention, I
 25       believe Commissioner McKendry you raised the point that


  1       you are raising.  In that reply I think we gave a
  2       general answer which was that we understood the
  3       Commission's policies and were anxious to be
  4       accommodating of smaller systems.
  5  1008                 If you would like us to make that
  6       more specific in relation to this, to 2001-25/26, I
  7       guess it is both of those, yes we will do that and why
  8       don't we get back to you with a specific answer on
  9       that.  The answer would be we would wish to comply with
 10       the Commission's approach to that matter for small
 11       systems.
 12  1009                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  And you are
 13       telling me that you will have a subsequent answer to
 14       this question.  Is that correct?
 15  1010                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  I would just say
 16       that is what we were referring to in general terms in
 17       our reply to that intervention.
 18  1011                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  All right. 
 19       Thank you.  Just excuse me for a minute please.
 20       --- Pause
 21  1012                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to
 22       break in a moment, Mr. Iannuzzi.  I just have one
 23       follow up on the carriage issue.
 24  1013                 I know that you are going to fine
 25       tune the carriage proposals, but what is coming through


  1       is that you really want the video feeds to be carried
  2       twice on every cable system I guess you are going to
  3       fine tune majority and minority language.  But am I
  4       essentially correct that you would like every cable
  5       system to carry both feeds?
  6  1014                 Are you aware of Public
  7       Notice 2001-115 where we provided for the carriage of
  8       the House of Commons and we said that there would be
  9       one video feed and then the use of the SAP to carry
 10       audio feeds available to the minority language?
 11  1015                 Given that the test of exceptional
 12       importance that we are discussing is one that you are
 13       trying to meet, are you not adding to your burden by
 14       saying that the exceptional importance would apply to
 15       both video feeds being carried when there are issues of
 16       access to the analog channels that have gone back at
 17       least five years?
 18  1016                 MR. MARCHANT:  We have not considered
 19       that point.  We will and we will get back to you.
 20  1017                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 21  1018                 We will break now and resume at 1:30.
 22       --- Upon recessing at 1220 / Suspension à 1220
 23       --- Upon resuming at 1335 / Reprise à 1335
 24  1019                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A
 25       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.


  1  1020                 Did you want to begin, gentlemen,
  2       with anything from this morning or should we proceed
  3       immediately with the questions?
  4  1021                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, we
  5       do have some brief answers to questions that were left
  6       outstanding.
  7  1022                 As was indicated in part, WTM will
  8       very shortly file both a diversity and an employment
  9       equity plan.
 10  1023                 Secondly, we looked at the inquiry
 11       about -- it was said to be on page P1182 regarding
 12       subtitling.  Our numbering doesn't correspond to that
 13       but I think that the answer it this, and if it isn't we
 14       will clarify further, that all WTM programming will be
 15       subtitled in at least one official language.
 16  1024                 With respect to the SAP, WTM feels
 17       that it needs that SAP channel for it to meet the
 18       described video requirement for the visually impaired. 
 19       WTM proposes that it be done in accordance with the
 20       minimum number of hours set out in CRTC Decision
 21       2001-669 at paragraph 26, dated November 2, 2001 and
 22       there will be a budget provided for that.
 23  1025                 With respect to carriage, and
 24       carriage and linguistic duality, this is a service in
 25       both of Canada's official languages and consumers and


  1       Canadians having access to our service in both official
  2       languages is for us a very fundamental matter that
  3       informs our approach to carriage.  I guess we owe a
  4       small apology to the Commission.  I think we put too
  5       many options on the table and I am going to try to
  6       simplify.  It was partly in response to the invitation
  7       in the order in council to look at all options, so we
  8       have looked at them carefully and we are going to
  9       narrow them down to the following I think clear
 10       options.
 11  1026                 In majority language markets, for
 12       Class 1 and 2 cable systems and for DTH, either modify
 13       dual status on the highest penetration tier or failing
 14       the highest penetration tier, basic.  So we are going
 15       to take the complications introduced by the
 16       Télé des Arts model off the table.
 17  1027                 I would also note that another reason
 18       for simplifying this option is that the CCTA indicated
 19       at the last hearing that any option on a high
 20       penetration tier is the most disruptive for their
 21       industry.  The basic is actually a lot easier for them. 
 22       So we have simplified that option.
 23  1028                 So one option, modify dual status,
 24       high penetration tier or basic; or number two is basic,
 25       either through dual status or through an order pursuant


  1       to section 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act.
  2  1029                 In minority language markets we have
  3       reduced it to one option regardless of which option is
  4       chosen in majority, and that is mandatory digital.  So
  5       that removes all the complications about packaging and
  6       things of that kind.
  7  1030                 For MDS and Class 3, carriage will be
  8       discretionary.  With respect to minority language
  9       issues, 2001-25 will apply.
 10  1031                 As I said, this matter of carriage
 11       and particularly basic carriage is very important to
 12       our concept of linguistic duality.  Because I think we
 13       are going to get to this, let me put it on the table
 14       for you because I hope it will be helpful so that we
 15       can respect our linguistic duality.  If basic carriage
 16       is granted we propose a 35 cent wholesale rate in
 17       majority markets, which is what we presently have. 
 18       With the mark-up that would mean about a 38 cent rate
 19       in majority markets.
 20  1032                 We think it would be desirable to
 21       equalize the retail rates in both majority and minority
 22       language markets so that whichever official language
 23       group your persuasion is or your persuasion is on that
 24       night of WTM service, you would be paying the same, or
 25       that month.  So that would be a 19 cent wholesale rate


  1       in minority language markets, and I am assuming here a
  2       50 per cent or 100 per cent mark-up depending on how
  3       one calculates it.  But let's assume the 19 cents is
  4       doubled to 38 when it is in minority language markets.
  5  1033                 That would be our approach to basic
  6       pricing and we would also be proposing to increase the
  7       proportion of revenues to Canadian programming to
  8       45 per cent of revenues.
  9  1034                 I hope that concludes, Mr. Chairman,
 10       the points that were raised on a small amount of
 11       digital information that I think will or hope will be
 12       helpful.
 13  1035                 MR. HOWARD:  Could I just ask one
 14       question of clarification?
 15  1036                 You said highest penetration and then
 16       I heard high penetration.  Which is it?
 17  1037                 MR. MARCHANT:  It is highest
 18       penetration tier.
 19  1038                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 20  1039                 MR. MARCHANT:  Modified dual status
 21       on the highest penetration -- highest, yes.
 22  1040                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 23  1041                 MR. MARCHANT:  Thank you for the
 24       clarification.
 25  1042                 THE CHAIRPERSON: 


  1       Commissioner McKendry.
  2  1043                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you,
  3       Mr. Chair.
  4  1044                 Could you just explain to me the
  5       rates that you just discussed, because you referred to
  6       a 19 cent rate?  Just elaborate on that again for me,
  7       if you don't mind.
  8  1045                 MR. MARCHANT:  Most certainly.
  9  1046                 Our objective was to have consumers
 10       pay the same rate, whether they were paying a minority
 11       or a majority language rate, for the WTM service.  This
 12       is on an assumption of basic carriage.  So that in
 13       majority language markets if we are on basic it is
 14       35 per cent plus 10 per cent roughly that the cable
 15       industry would charge, which leads me to a 38
 16       cent rate.
 17  1047                 On the assumption that when it is on
 18       mandatory digital in the minority language market there
 19       would be 100 per cent mark-up or that the wholesale
 20       rate would be doubled at the retail level.  I took the
 21       38 cents and divided by two to create a wholesale rate
 22       of 19 cents so that the BDU could offer that service at
 23       the same retail rate to a minority language subscriber
 24       as to a majority language one.
 25  1048                 Have I clarified that for you, sir?


  1  1049                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I think so. 
  2       But just to summarize then, put me in the shoes of a
  3       subscriber.  As a subscriber, what am I going to pay? 
  4       I have the majority language service on basic and I pay
  5       35 cents plus the mark-up. The minority language
  6       service is on digital and how much am I going to pay
  7       there as the subscriber to that cable system for that
  8       service?
  9  1050                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.  I think where
 10       you are going is one has no choice but to pay twice if
 11       one is buying an extra -- and I think that is right.
 12  1051                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So it would
 13       be 70 cents plus whatever mark-ups are involved and
 14       taxes and so on.
 15  1052                 MR. MARCHANT:  It would be that, yes.
 16  1053                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you.
 17  1054                 I wanted to turn now, and I suppose
 18       that is a good entrée into this area, to talk about
 19       money and the fee that is being proposed here.  It is
 20       an important area for us and for you because if we do
 21       what you would like us to do we have to approve that
 22       fee so we want to make sure that the fee is fair to you
 23       in the sense that your investors earn a reasonable
 24       return on their investment and at the same time we have
 25       to be satisfied that subscribers don't pay any more


  1       than what is reasonable to pay for the service.
  2  1055                 I suppose in this case it is
  3       particularly important because I think you would agree
  4       there are some subscribers who have no interest in your
  5       service and who will not watch the service yet will
  6       have to pay the fee if we give you the kind of carriage
  7       you are looking for.  You would agree with that,
  8       I think.
  9       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
 10  1056                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  In order to
 11       understand the fee that you are proposing, it seems to
 12       me we need to look at the expenses that have gone into
 13       developing that fee and the impact on your revenues of
 14       the kind of carriage that is being proposed here. 
 15       Looking at the expenses first, I took it from reading
 16       your application and from reading the record of the
 17       last proceeding you used the word "deductively".  I
 18       took that to mean you had built up your fee or you had
 19       calculated your fee by building up your expenses:  how
 20       many expenses would you incur, what did you need to pay
 21       a reasonable return to your investors and so on and
 22       come up with a fee.
 23  1057                 Is that right?  Is that what
 24       deductively means?
 25  1058                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I am not too sure I


  1       understand the question in that sense.
  2  1059                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Did you take
  3       a bottoms-up approach to setting the rate?  Did you add
  4       up all your expenses and say there is what we need for
  5       a rate?
  6  1060                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's correct.  I
  7       mean, you would start off by what your plant costs are,
  8       what your programming costs might be and so on.  Then
  9       once you have that then you figure out based on the
 10       carriage that we originally predicated our business
 11       plan on worked out to be 35 cents at that particular
 12       time.
 13  1061                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So when you
 14       are adding up your expenses, your programming expenses
 15       and so on, looking through your application and your
 16       business plan one of the expenses you included was
 17       interest expense, the interest you would have to pay
 18       the investors who invested in the company through debt,
 19       and you have set forward in there your interest rate
 20       assumptions and so on.
 21  1062                 It wasn't clear to me, though, what
 22       assumption you had included in setting that rate as a
 23       return for the equity investors in the company.
 24  1063                 MR. IANNUZZI:  First of all, there
 25       was no interest going to shareholders.  The only


  1       interest was on the debt equity which, in essence, came
  2       from bank advances for the leasing and/or the
  3       purchasing of broadcast equipment.  As far as the
  4       shareholder is concerned, the estimated return possible
  5       based on the business plan was 15 per cent at the end
  6       of the year, which is not as high as most broadcast
  7       facilities would be.
  8  1064                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So the
  9       35 cents includes a 15 per cent return to the equity
 10       investors in the company.
 11  1065                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Correct.
 12  1066                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I want to
 13       look now at some of the specific expenses.  I looked at
 14       the business plan that was filed the last time because,
 15       as I take it, that is the business plan that is being
 16       carried forward into this proceeding we have today. 
 17       With respect to the interest rate that you used in your
 18       calculations, I noticed that you used a prime rate of
 19       7.5 per cent.  I take the current prime rate to be
 20       4 per cent.
 21  1067                 Is there any reason why we shouldn't
 22       adjust your business plan to take into account the
 23       decline in the prime rate?
 24  1068                 MR. IANNUZZI:  The interest rates do
 25       fluctuate.  Those were the ones at the time that --


  1       when we approached the bank on the question of leasing
  2       and/or purchasing, the rate was set out by the Banque
  3       Nationale du Canada and we put that in there.
  4  1069                 Since then, thanks to Mr. Greenspan,
  5       some of it has come down, but who knows within the five
  6       year period, the next five years, how -- I don't have a
  7       crystal ball on that one.  But if it is, we would
  8       adjust the interest rates based on prime rate plus two.
  9  1070                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  When you
 10       filed your business plan the last time, which was
 11       November 6, I took it the information in there was
 12       effective as of October 25 -- November 6, 2000, and the
 13       information there was effective October 25, 2000 -- at
 14       that time 7.5 per cent was the best estimate you had of
 15       what the prime rate would be and you incorporated it
 16       into your plan.
 17  1071                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Right.
 18  1072                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Now it is
 19       4 per cent, so --
 20  1073                 MR. IANNUZZI:  We would adjust that
 21       accordingly and if anything pass it through.
 22  1074                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Okay.  Thank
 23       you for that.
 24  1075                 MR. McHALE:  May I add on to that
 25       question?


  1  1076                 You are talking about the prime rate. 
  2       We have the cost of the lease.  Just like credit card
  3       companies, lease companies are not dropping their
  4       interest rates as dramatically as the prime rate so the
  5       marginal difference in the interest rate we would pay
  6       is minuscule.  You know, retained earnings of
  7       $7 million after seven years is not an exorbitant
  8       profit and very little room to manoeuvre on the
  9       subscriber rate -- in fact, no room to manoeuvre.
 10  1077                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  As I recall,
 11       looking at your business plan, the interest rates used,
 12       the prime rate, is their foundation and added on extra
 13       basis points depending on the kind of borrowing, so it
 14       would seem to me, and you can correct me if I am wrong,
 15       that if the prime rate dropped by 3.5 per cent then the
 16       interest rates in your projection should drop by
 17       3.5 per cent as well.
 18  1078                 MR. MARCHANT:  Where is that
 19       reference in the business plan?
 20  1079                 MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  It is on the
 21       leasing of equipment and the bank rate that is being
 22       charged.  I think the answer is just as I gave it
 23       before, that if there is that we will make the
 24       adjustment and pass it through.
 25  1080                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I will find


  1       those rate assumptions for you, if you just give me a
  2       minute, or are you agreeing that in fact those --
  3       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
  4  1081                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Oh, you are
  5       agreeing that those were the rates that you used?
  6  1082                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I am agreeing with you
  7       because we have had this discussion internally before.
  8  1083                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Okay. 
  9       Thanks.
 10  1084                 The business plan also includes cable
 11       promotion fees of $2.4 million.  My question is, if you
 12       are on basic, as you would like to be, what are those
 13       cable promotion expenses because intuitively one would
 14       assume, or at least I would assume, that there wouldn't
 15       be a lot of promotion involved if the Commission
 16       ordered basic carriage.?
 17  1085                 MR. IANNUZZI:  At the time that
 18       business plan was put together, I am sure you will
 19       remember that the new services going to air, the new
 20       service providers, were in essence I don't want to use
 21       the words being held up for but were asked to sort of
 22       kick in to promotion development and launches and
 23       combines that did in some cases reach $2 million.  So
 24       we had set aside the sum of $2.4 million not thinking
 25       that we were going to give any cable operator


  1       $2 million surely.
  2  1086                 The fact was that this is a large
  3       country and there are a lot of communities that we
  4       would want to go into.  There are a lot of newspapers,
  5       ethnic and otherwise that we would want to promote this
  6       service in, so we have a budget there that certainly
  7       would cover quite a lot.
  8  1087                 I will agree with you that on basic
  9       service that might not be as necessary and therefore
 10       again if we were to make an adjustment on that
 11       particular portion we would pass that through.
 12  1088                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  The
 13       difficulty for us is, if push comes to shove, what kind
 14       of adjustment do you think should be made?  We are
 15       going to have to set a rate.  We don't want to include
 16       expenses in there that may in fact not be incurred. 
 17       What I am hearing from you is of that $2.4 million some
 18       of it may not be incurred because of a change in
 19       circumstance.
 20  1089                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That is correct.  Let
 21       us assume for a moment that in the promotion budget
 22       there may be maybe a half a million dollars there and
 23       on the question of interest there may be a quarter of a
 24       million.  We added all of this up, there may be
 25       $1 million worth of cost saving in our expenses that


  1       could be applied to the question of a rate adjustment
  2       and we would leave that to the Commission.
  3  1090                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  With respect
  4       to the $2.4 million, do you have a suggestion as to
  5       what the adjustment should be at this time?
  6  1091                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Approximately
  7       $750,000.
  8  1092                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  It should be
  9       reduced to $750,000.
 10  1093                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  If we had basic
 11       and mandatory carriage, not having to deal with the
 12       cable operator in that sense, then we would invest
 13       maybe on a one-to-one basis with the cable operator.
 14  1094                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So we would
 15       reduce that from $2.4 million to $750,000.  What
 16       essentially would the $750,000 be used for?
 17  1095                 MR. IANNUZZI:  It would probably go
 18       into our subtitling and Canadian program production.
 19  1096                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So there
 20       shouldn't be really anything in the cable promotion
 21       line but you are saying you would like to increase your
 22       subtitling expenses by $750,000.
 23  1097                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.  We can
 24       move that from that one category to the other the same
 25       way as we would deal with being on basic carriage and,


  1       at that rate, the increased revenues.  We are saying
  2       that would go in to increase our rate from -- 40 per
  3       cent to 45 per cent of revenues would be dedicated to
  4       Canadian programming.
  5  1098                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  If your
  6       subtitling budget was sufficient in the information you
  7       filed the last time, why does it need $750,000 more
  8       now?  Is there some change in the way you are
  9       approaching subtitling?
 10  1099                 MR. DEMERS:  As it had been pointed
 11       out this morning, subtitling would be new to many
 12       Canadians.  There will never be enough money to promote
 13       the fact that looking at programming subtitles enhances
 14       the quality.  To get Canadians used to looking at
 15       subtitling as something that adds something to a film
 16       or a program, it is my personal conviction that if all
 17       the money cannot be used or will not be used or will
 18       not necessarily be used in a certain part of the budget
 19       becomes available it should be used to promote the new
 20       venues we are offering.  There will never be enough
 21       money for that if we want to have a fast access and
 22       acceptance of the type of programming we are offering.
 23  1100                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you for
 24       your answer.  I suppose one of the difficulties is that
 25       if you are on basic acceptance -- how does acceptance


  1       factor into this?  Is it because you can collect more
  2       advertising revenues the more acceptance you have?
  3  1101                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.  We
  4       start off first that the subscriber revenues are
  5       increased because we are going to mandatory basic, I
  6       mean you have increased 3 million subscribers in
  7       our case.
  8  1102                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  But it
  9       doesn't matter if anybody watches it if you are on
 10       mandatory carriage in terms of your subscriber rates.
 11  1103                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Pardon?
 12  1104                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  In terms of
 13       your subscriber rates, if you have mandatory carriage
 14       on basic it doesn't matter, from a revenue point of
 15       view, whether or not anybody watches it.  You will get
 16       the same revenues.
 17  1105                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's correct. 
 18       That's correct.
 19  1106                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I guess what
 20       I am asking is, though, perhaps that impacts
 21       advertising, the acceptance, apart from the fact that
 22       you want to have viewers.  I am just setting aside and
 23       looking at it from a revenue point of view.
 24  1107                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's correct.
 25  1108                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Okay. 


  1       Thanks.
  2  1109                 This is a question similar to the
  3       prime rate.  The inflation rate that has been
  4       incorporated into your business plan is 2.5 per cent
  5       and the current CPI is 1.8 per cent.  Should we adjust
  6       the expenses to reflect a lower CPI?
  7  1110                 MR. McHALE:  No.  I don't think we
  8       should adjust it because we are going to be buying
  9       international programming and at the same time the
 10       Canadian dollar has plummeted more than this.  CPI has
 11       been reduced.
 12  1111                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So you are
 13       saying that your programming expenses have gone up
 14       since you filed this original information because of a
 15       drop in the Canadian dollar.
 16  1112                 MR. McHALE:  The Canadian dollar has
 17       dropped, so I don't think there is any need for an
 18       adjustment.
 19  1113                 Going back to cable promotion, we
 20       will still have to promote that the secondary language
 21       is on a digital tier, so we will have to spend money to
 22       promote that.
 23  1114                 MR. BERNSTEIN:  I would further add
 24       that the cost of Canadian programming has gone up
 25       because the investment dollars needed to trigger


  1       funding are now higher.
  2  1115                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  The problem
  3       from our point of view is we don't really have a good
  4       handle on that because you didn't refile a business
  5       plan with us, as I understand it, so the only numbers
  6       we have to work with are the ones that have been filed.
  7  1116                 I guess after we go through a number
  8       of these items, to forewarn you about what I will be
  9       asking you to do, what I will be asking you to do is I
 10       will be asking you to refile your business plan.  So in
 11       that business plan that would be one of the things that
 12       we would like to see you incorporate then is explicitly
 13       what the impact of the Canadian dollar decline has been
 14       and how that impacts your business plan.  We would like
 15       you to make the other kinds of adjustments we have
 16       discussed, the lower inflation rate, lower prime rate,
 17       the fact that the cable promotion budget doesn't seem
 18       to be as necessary as it was and you may want to adjust
 19       that.  There may be some other adjustments you want to
 20       make as well.
 21  1117                 So rather than asking you now what is
 22       your program budget given the decline in the Canadian
 23       dollar I will be asking you to refile your business
 24       plan.
 25  1118                 Maybe we could go through, then, some


  1       of the other items I have in front of me here.
  2  1119                 The payroll benefits.  You assumed
  3       that the benefits would be 15 per cent of your
  4       salaries, your salary expense.  That strikes me as
  5       high.  Let me give you a benchmark that I took a look
  6       at before I came over.
  7  1120                 In the conventional TV business, the
  8       information we have, which is based on filings by the
  9       conventional TV broadcasters, shows that salaries and
 10       benefits are 10.1 per cent.  Why are yours 15 per cent?
 11  1121                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Because we also have a
 12       benefit plan that goes in there as well and that takes
 13       up a good portion there.
 14  1122                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So you are
 15       proposing to pay benefits that are 50 per cent higher
 16       in a start-up business than what conventional
 17       television broadcasters pay their employees.
 18  1123                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I don't know what
 19       benefits -- health and hospital and dental kind of plan
 20       that they are doing.  Ours was an estimate based on
 21       costs at the time of filing that application that we
 22       knew and we were paying within our own organization as
 23       it stands today.
 24  1124                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Maybe when
 25       you refile your business plan you could provide some


  1       analysis of how you got to the 15 per cent.  That
  2       presumably is --
  3  1125                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Absolutely.
  4  1126                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Okay.  So you
  5       would show the benefits and how they get up to 15 per
  6       cent.
  7  1127                 MR. IANNUZZI:  The benefits package.
  8  1128                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I wanted to
  9       ask you a question about depreciation.
 10       --- Pause
 11  1129                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  You have
 12       depreciated your fixed assets over five years, as I
 13       understand it.  Is that correct?
 14  1130                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes.  I think it was
 15       20 per cent per year straight line --
 16  1131                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Over five
 17       years.
 18  1132                 Why would you select five years? 
 19       Based on my experience, five years is a short period of
 20       time over which to depreciate those assets.  Are they
 21       only going to contribute to your revenues for five
 22       years and in year six they will not contribute to your
 23       revenues?
 24  1133                 MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  Our experience
 25       has been that by the time you get into your fourth,


  1       fifth year you are upgrading and there is all of that
  2       that is required.  So it is not that you have written
  3       off your equipment, it is still productive, but you are
  4       upgrading and you are adding more facilities to the
  5       same equipment in order to do that.
  6  1134                 It happens, you know, with all the
  7       computerized equipment that we have today.  I mean, we
  8       continually plough in -- in our computers it is an
  9       average of three to three and a half years, so we
 10       thought that five years, from an industry standard, was
 11       the average.
 12  1135                 MR. McHALE:  Also, the correct
 13       accounting treatment is to state fixed assets at the
 14       lower of cost or realizable value and after five years
 15       the realizable value of equipment that has been used
 16       for five years constantly is almost zero.
 17  1136                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I would have
 18       thought the principle behind depreciation was to
 19       allocate the costs of the assets to the years in which
 20       revenue would be derived from those assets and --
 21  1137                 MR. McHALE:  Sorry.  The prudence
 22       concept overrides the accrual concept in accounting.
 23  1138                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  And you are
 24       telling me that a five year write-off of these assets
 25       is typical and standard --


  1  1139                 MR. McHALE:  Is a prudent accounting
  2       approach.
  3  1140                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  And is
  4       standard for the industry.
  5  1141                 MR. McHALE:  And standard practice.
  6  1142                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Your deferred
  7       expenses you have written off over seven years, as I
  8       understand it.
  9  1143                 MR. McHALE:  That is standard
 10       accounting practice to write it off over the term of
 11       the licence period.
 12  1144                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Why would
 13       your deferred expenses have a longer write-off period
 14       than depreciation?
 15  1145                 MR. McHALE:  Again, I would go back
 16       to you state fixed assets at the lower of cost or
 17       realizable value and after five years that approximates
 18       zero.  The other accounting treatment is allocating the
 19       expenses based on the accrual concept over the life of
 20       the licence period, which is seven years.
 21  1146                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  If we
 22       adjusted the depreciation to write it off over the
 23       seven year study period, would that be something that
 24       you would think was a problem given Mr. Iannuzzi's
 25       comment that the equipment would still be productive


  1       after five years?
  2  1147                 MR. McHALE:  The two are not related. 
  3       It is an accounting issue and we followed journal
  4       accounting standards and practices drawing this.  We
  5       would have to talk to our accountant that this was
  6       acceptable.
  7  1148                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  What is the
  8       capital cost allowance write-off period for these
  9       assets for income tax purposes?
 10  1149                 MR. MARCHANT:  There are different
 11       rates for different classes.  Where the rate is less
 12       than 100 per cent, it is on a double declining balance,
 13       so in theory you never get to zero because you are
 14       always knocking off 20 per cent or 30 per cent for a
 15       vehicle.  But as a practical matter, if you have a
 16       20 per cent double declining balance depreciation rate
 17       you are going to get close to zero after five or six
 18       years.  That is the general principle.
 19  1150                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  One of the
 20       other things that struck me about the assumptions in
 21       your business plan was that you show your accounts
 22       receivables being collected in 50 day yet you are
 23       paying your accounts payable in 30 days.  That of
 24       course increases your financing costs because there is
 25       a longer period of time to collect your receivables


  1       than you are paying your suppliers.
  2  1151                 Why do you plan to pay your suppliers
  3       in 30 days yet only collect your receivables in
  4       50 days?  Why wouldn't you take 50 days with your
  5       suppliers?
  6  1152                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I suppose those would
  7       have to be negotiated, but generally when your
  8       principal goes in your terms are 30 days when you are
  9       dealing with that.  The practice then eventually, once
 10       you have established a good credit standing, is that
 11       you are able then, with distributors and certain
 12       suppliers, to gain anywhere from 40 to 50 days.
 13  1153                 But the fact is that the receivables,
 14       even though we are dealing primarily with cable
 15       companies and advertising agencies, even though both
 16       will tell you that it is 15 plus two days, advertising
 17       agencies take 30 plus and maybe as much as 40 and not
 18       all cable operators, big or small, pay their dues on
 19       time either.
 20  1154                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I understand
 21       that.  I am asking you, for forecasting purposes here,
 22       whether it wouldn't be a more reasonable assumption
 23       that in terms of managing your business out there in
 24       the real world that you wouldn't match paying your
 25       suppliers with the cash flows you are getting from your


  1       receivables.
  2  1155                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Absolutely. 
  3       Absolutely.  I mean, most businesses are financed with
  4       their payables, I mean a good portion of them anyway.
  5  1156                 I am saying that once you have gotten
  6       away from the start-up operation and you have a
  7       practice of what your suppliers are willing to give you
  8       as far as credit beyond the 30 days, that is something
  9       that probably would go to 45 and 50 days and then there
 10       would be a tie-in both for receivables and payables.
 11  1157                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So when you
 12       redo your business plan perhaps you could --
 13  1158                 MR. IANNUZZI:  We would change that
 14       assumption and make an assumption that somewhere within
 15       the term of licence that would be met.
 16  1159                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I just want
 17       to go back to the fixed assets for a moment.  I found
 18       the page I was looking for.  It is page 355 on the
 19       business plan that was filed.  It shows there that you
 20       have written your fixed assets off over five years
 21       which, given your depreciation method, is what would
 22       happen, and in year six you add back in $1.5 million
 23       worth of new fixed assets.
 24  1160                 Given that in year one you bought
 25       $3.2 million worth of fixed assets and in year six you


  1       have only replaced half of those fixed assets, I take
  2       it that the other half are still being used in your
  3       business in years six and seven but there is no costs
  4       being charged against the revenues in years six and
  5       seven for those assets that are still being used.
  6  1161                 MR. McHALE:  Correct.  It has been
  7       amortized in those five years.
  8  1162                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  And you are
  9       telling me that is in accordance with generally
 10       accepted accounting principles and that one of the
 11       generally accepted accounting principles being to
 12       allocate or to match costs and revenues.
 13  1163                 MR. McHALE:  Yes.  You have three
 14       fundamental principles in accounting:  matching,
 15       accruals and the overriding one is prudence.  You
 16       always take the most conservative outlook.
 17  1164                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So in your
 18       view, prudence would override the matching of costs and
 19       revenues when it comes to generally accepted accounting
 20       principles.
 21  1165                 MR. McHALE:  It is not my opinion. 
 22       It is Fazbi and SSAP in Europe.
 23  1166                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Perhaps you
 24       could file that with us.  Presumably it is available
 25       somewhere.  Thanks.


  1  1167                 Let me look now at the revenue aspect
  2       of this.  What I have done is taken the revenues as
  3       filed in your business plan and then I have taken a
  4       look at the revenues.  This is just for the Class 1 and
  5       Class 2 English to make it simple or relatively simple. 
  6       Any of the numbers I give you of course are subject to
  7       check and you will be refiling your business plan so
  8       you will have an opportunity to do that.
  9  1168                 The original application was modified
 10       dual status for majority language feed, digital only
 11       for minority language feed.  In coming to these
 12       questions, I have revised that based on information
 13       that we had before we started our discussions
 14       yesterday.
 15  1169                 What I have done is assumed a basic
 16       carriage for the majority language feed, which I think
 17       is what you are still asking for, and modified dual
 18       status or digital carriage of minority language feed. 
 19       Those are the assumptions I made in coming up with the
 20       numbers that I came up with here, and the numbers that
 21       I am going to give you, as I said, only relate to the
 22       Class 1 and Class 2 English.  I didn't include the
 23       French Class 1 and Class 2.
 24  1170                 To make a long story short, and I can
 25       give you the numbers to come up with it, the revised


  1       numbers show that your English Class 1 and Class 2
  2       revenues will increase 53 per cent over the originally
  3       filed submission.  I don't know whether or not you have
  4       had a chance to make that calculation yourself.
  5  1171                 MR. McHALE:  We made a calculation
  6       based on 3519, the proposed rate by Dr. Marchant, on
  7       basic and digital for the secondary language.  Revenues
  8       increased approximately, on an annual basis, by about
  9       $13 million, is the numbers I came up with.
 10  1172                 The other impact of that is that the
 11       lead programmer in any category, and especially in our
 12       category because we will be the first multicultural
 13       channel, is expected to fund between 45 per cent in
 14       English language production or 30 per cent in the case
 15       of French language production for any acquisitions. 
 16       What we would do in this case is increase the
 17       commitment to Canadian productions from I think it is
 18       approximately 41 per cent that is in the projections up
 19       to 45 per cent.  That would allow us to do that.
 20  1173                 That would increase Canadian
 21       production by approximately $7.1 million a year so that
 22       would eat up more than 50 per cent of the increase in
 23       subscriber revenue.
 24  1174                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So regardless
 25       of what percentage the increase is, you are saying you


  1       would take half of that and increase your program
  2       production budget.
  3  1175                 MR. McHALE:  The impact is that more
  4       than 50 per cent would go because you are increasing
  5       the expenditure from 41 to 45 on all of the revenue,
  6       not just the incremental.
  7  1176                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  What about
  8       the other half, where does it go?
  9       --- Pause
 10  1177                 MR. IANNUZZI:  It certainly would
 11       help fuel growth, the balance of that.  I mean, if more
 12       than 50 per cent of the increased revenues goes
 13       directly into Canadian programming then we are saying
 14       that we would have sufficient funds to help accelerate
 15       the growth of the company and its development. 
 16       Probably indirectly some of that would even flow to the
 17       shareholder to give it a reasonable rate of return of
 18       somewhere around 20 per cent rather than 15.
 19  1178                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I guess
 20       another option would be to reduce the 35 cent rate.
 21  1179                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Yes, that is one of
 22       them there.  In fact, we did have a model which lowered
 23       it, and still they would pick up that extra 45-odd per
 24       cent, to 32 cents.  It would be 32 and 16 rather than
 25       35 and 19.  That is one of the things that we are


  1       willing to put on the table as well.
  2  1180                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  You are
  3       saying half or approximately half -- and you can be
  4       specific about it because this is something that
  5       presumably you incorporate into your refiled business
  6       plan -- approximately half would go to more program
  7       production and some portion would go to reduce the rate
  8       to 32 cents.
  9  1181                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Reduce the rate
 10       basically.  Yes, it was 32 and 16.
 11  1182                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Right.  And
 12       the rest accrues to the shareholders.
 13  1183                 MR. IANNUZZI:  No. The 3 cent
 14       reduction practically eats up most of that extra
 15       reduction of the revenue.
 16  1184                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I see.  Okay. 
 17       Thank you for that.
 18  1185                 Just in terms of increasing the
 19       program production, that would be a relatively
 20       significant increase, wouldn't it, in your program
 21       production expenditures?
 22  1186                 MR. BERNSTEIN:  Yes.
 23  1187                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  What does
 24       that do to your schedule that you have filed with us
 25       with respect to programming and so on?  How does it


  1       change that?
  2  1188                 MR. BERNSTEIN:  It doesn't change the
  3       schedule so much as it changes our ability to create
  4       brand new programs and be first windows on programs. 
  5       So what that means is, with the other plan we might
  6       have to acquire a lot of programs at a cut rate.  This
  7       allows us to actually go out and produce brand new
  8       programs at a greater rate.
  9  1189                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Also I might add that
 10       in your going in position on any new start-up
 11       operation, independent producers are willing to come in
 12       at a lower level to get yourself going and so on.  By
 13       the time they are into you and you are into them it is
 14       time that they would like to be paid the kind of market
 15       rates, probably in year two -- this is the effect this
 16       extra revenue would have, that in year two we would be
 17       getting closer to paying the market rates for
 18       independent production.
 19  1190                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Just then to
 20       sum up, I take it that you are agreeing to refile a
 21       business plan with us that will incorporate the changes
 22       we have discussed, the increase in the program
 23       production, the decrease in the rate you are proposing
 24       and any other matters that you think should be brought
 25       to our attention.


  1  1191                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I agreed we would do
  2       that and therefore we would have to make the model
  3       which is predicated therefore on the type of carriage
  4       that we are talking about.  I mean, that was our
  5       problem all the time, that we had business plans that
  6       were put together that were first based on basic dual
  7       status and then modified dual status, and then we made
  8       adjustments again so that whilst we took care of the
  9       revenue side of this and the effect that would
 10       establish both rate and so on, we never went all the
 11       way back in to the business plan simply because of the
 12       type of carriage it would easily adjust itself
 13       accordingly.
 14  1192                 In this particular case, if we come
 15       back with a new business plan, an adjusted business
 16       plan because the basis is all there, it is to
 17       compensate for the kind of carriage we are talking
 18       about.  So if we give you a business plan, it is
 19       predicated on the type of carriage that we have
 20       established here today as far as our request is
 21       concerned.
 22  1193                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I think that
 23       is what we would be looking for is a business plan
 24       based on your preferred carriage.
 25  1194                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Carriage.


  1  1195                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  If you have
  2       another option that you want us to consider, you can
  3       file a business plan for that as well.
  4  1196                 MR. IANNUZZI:  A and B.
  5       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
  6  1197                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  We will leave
  7       that to you.
  8  1198                 Those are the questions I had,
  9       Mr. Chair.  Thank you.
 10  1199                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 11  1200                 I just have one further question to
 12       Mr. Iannuzzi and Mr. Marchant.  It is again a follow-up
 13       from my earlier question today.
 14  1201                 I thank you for clarifying your
 15       carriage objectives.  I am still trying to understand
 16       that there will be received, according to your
 17       proposal, a service that will be one service in terms
 18       of the video and the audio.  The difference will be in
 19       subtitling, if I am not mistaken, so that the English
 20       service will have, where there is French or foreign
 21       programming, English subtitles; the French service,
 22       where there is English or foreign programming, will
 23       have French subtitles, but that the video and audio
 24       will otherwise be identical.  Is that correct?
 25  1202                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's correct. 


  1       Though we are not rolling that way.  We are rolling two
  2       separate services.  I mean, there are two uplinks for
  3       this, two master controls and so on, because
  4       commercials may vary in both services if there is a
  5       French commercial.  So we are operating two channels. 
  6       In fact, the second English one, for the time
  7       difference, is another channel that we are rolling out.
  8  1203                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  I guess I
  9       will go back to my previous questioning where in view
 10       of the test that was set out in our earlier policy I
 11       wonder why you wouldn't be proposing one change to
 12       that, a single feed, which would be the same video and
 13       audio, but the only change would potentially be two
 14       sets of subtitles in regard to the foreign programming,
 15       because in every other respect it would be the same and
 16       that that would be the service that you would be
 17       proposing.
 18  1204                 I am not asking you to change your
 19       application but I am wondering, in view of where you
 20       are and where we are in this process, why that isn't
 21       being put forward as an option by you for our
 22       consideration.
 23  1205                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Are you saying that
 24       you would carry two subtitles under it so that if I am
 25       watching I can either read it in English or in French?


  1  1206                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have been to
  2       movies that have had that.
  3  1207                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That would be
  4       totally -- it would be unacceptable.
  5  1208                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why is that?
  6  1209                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I am just saying it is
  7       unacceptable to me as a viewer.  I have watched
  8       Channel 47 actually run some movies where they have it
  9       in Chinese and Mandarin and English and it just takes
 10       about a third of the picture.  I mean, it is totally
 11       frustrating.  I don't think Canadians deserve that kind
 12       of a service.
 13  1210                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You were going to
 14       get back to me, or maybe you have, on the issue of -- I
 15       appreciate that you are proposing to use the SAP for
 16       described video presumably both in English and French
 17       on the two services, but I guess what I am wondering is
 18       that, you know, in view of where you are in this long
 19       process that you have described to us, why in the world
 20       of trade-offs that isn't a proposal that you are
 21       putting forward.  If the answer is because two sets of
 22       subtitles on, from your application, the diminishing
 23       quantity of foreign language programming is
 24       unacceptable, I will take that as your answer if that
 25       is your answer.


  1  1211                 Is that the reason you are not doing
  2       that?
  3  1212                 MR. IANNUZZI:  No.  I think that both
  4       services deserve the quality and the, how should I say,
  5       establishment of the French service and the English
  6       service as two separate feeds so that if there was a
  7       time shift of a program, for whatever reason, there may
  8       be -- wanting to sort of counterprogram in the French
  9       market, so we move a program by an hour earlier or
 10       later, whatever the case may be, we have to have the
 11       flexibility of programmers.  It is not a question of
 12       just shovelling something on to a channel so that
 13       whichever one gets the best feed out of it the second
 14       one gets chicken feed sort of thing.
 15  1213                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I guess I
 16       have your answer.  Thank you very much.
 17  1214                 Mr. Secretary, would you --
 18  1215                 MR. HOWARD:  Mr. Chairman, just a
 19       couple of small questions.
 20  1216                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, you do have
 21       questions?
 22  1217                 MR. HOWARD:  Yes.
 23  1218                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought that you
 24       indicated that you didn't.
 25  1219                 MR. HOWARD:  Just a couple of very


  1       small, fast, clean-up questions.
  2  1220                 In your proposal today you talked
  3       about modified dual status for DTH.  What does that
  4       mean to you?
  5  1221                 MR. MARCHANT:  As defined in the
  6       distribution regulations.
  7  1222                 MR. HOWARD:  What does it mean to
  8       you?
  9  1223                 MR. MARCHANT:  I think it means the
 10       satellite services that are an alternative to cable
 11       carriage.  I am not quite sure where you are going --
 12  1224                 MR. HOWARD:  What does modified dual
 13       status on DTH mean?
 14  1225                 MR. MARCHANT:  Oh, sorry.  I think it
 15       means you get carried.  Right?
 16       --- Pause
 17  1226                 MR. MARCHANT:  We are asking for
 18       mandatory carriage on DTH.
 19  1227                 MR. HOWARD:  Not mandatory dual
 20       carriage, mandatory carriage.  Okay.
 21  1228                 MR. MARCHANT:  On DTH, yes.
 22  1229                 MR. HOWARD:  And that would mean
 23       where?
 24  1230                 MR. IANNUZZI:  On the highest
 25       penetration tier.  We are trying to establish the same


  1       for DTH as we are for cable.
  2  1231                 MR. HOWARD:  So you want it on the
  3       highest penetration tier.
  4  1232                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.
  5  1233                 MR. HOWARD:  It just differs a bit
  6       from what you said before where I think it was the
  7       package of discretionary service containing the
  8       greatest number of English services in the majority,
  9       but if you want the highest penetration --
 10  1234                 MR. MARCHANT:  Okay.  Now I
 11       understand.  No.  It is the highest penetration tier in
 12       majority language markets, whichever it is, yes.
 13  1235                 MR. HOWARD:  For DTH?
 14  1236                 MR. MARCHANT:  I'm sorry; I apologize
 15       for not immediately understanding your question.
 16  1237                 MR. HOWARD:  You were going to file a
 17       set of projects -- sorry, revised financial statements
 18       based on your preferred option for carriage, which was
 19       modified dual status.  Would it take you a great deal
 20       more time to put one in for basic carriage?
 21  1238                 MR. MARCHANT:  I understood we were
 22       going to put one in for basic carriage.
 23  1239                 MR. HOWARD:  Okay.
 24  1240                 MR. MARCHANT:  I didn't understand we
 25       were going to do one for -- I mean, modified dual


  1       status on the highest penetration tier is the premise
  2       of the application that is now filed --
  3  1241                 MR. HOWARD:  Okay.  I think you were
  4       going to revise your figures so, yes, you were going to
  5       put it in on the option that you wanted.  I am asking
  6       if perhaps you could put it in on the other option
  7       which I am not sure is the one you state you wanted,
  8       which is on basic.
  9  1242                 MR. MARCHANT:  Let me put it this
 10       way.  I guess we will respond to whatever the
 11       Commission is asking us to do.
 12  1243                 MR. HOWARD:  Okay.
 13  1244                 MR. MARCHANT:  Commissioner McKendry
 14       has raised a number -- if the request is to take
 15       account of Commissioner McKendry's comments with
 16       respect to both options and file plans for both
 17       options, then that is -- is that the request?
 18  1245                 MR. HOWARD:  That might be helpful
 19       for us, yes.  Thank you.
 20  1246                 The last question.  If everything
 21       turns out the way you want, when would you be launching
 22       this service?
 23  1247                 MR. IANNUZZI:  September of 2003, but
 24       we would like to have a preview starting on Canada Day,
 25       July 1, 2003.


  1  1248                 MR. HOWARD:  Sorry.  Just one last
  2       question.
  3  1249                 I think I may be a little confused. 
  4       I thought the Canadian programming that is not
  5       news-oriented would be acquired Canadian programming
  6       from independent producers.  Was I correct there?
  7  1250                 MR. BERNSTEIN:  That's correct.
  8  1251                 MR. HOWARD:  The extra revenue would
  9       go to producing your own programs so it would all go
 10       into the news programs.  Is that correct?
 11  1252                 MR. BERNSTEIN:  No.  The extra
 12       revenue would almost all go into the acquired programs.
 13  1253                 MR. HOWARD:  Okay.  Thank you.
 14  1254                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 15  1255                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 16       We have now reached Phase II of the hearing of this
 17       application where we will provide appearing intervenors
 18       with a period of 10 minutes to intervene.
 19  1256                 While WTM does retire, I would
 20       indicate for the record that Intervenors Nos. 3, 4, 10
 21       and 16 on the agenda have elected not to appear.  These
 22       interventions will remain on the public record as
 23       non-appearing.
 24  1257                 The first appearing intervention will
 25       be presented by the Canadian Cable Television


  1       Association.  Appearing on behalf of the CCTA is Janet
  2       Yale and Lori Assheton-Smith.
  3  1258                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whenever you are
  4       ready.  To quote the secretary, you have 10 minutes.
  5  1259                 MS YALE:  I am familiar with that
  6       rule.
  8  1260                 MS YALE:  Good afternoon.  My name is
  9       Janet Yale and I am President and CEO of the Canadian
 10       Cable Television Association.  With me today is
 11       Lori Assheton-Smith, CCTA's General Counsel and
 12       Vice-President, New Media.
 13  1261                 We are pleased to appear before you
 14       today to comment on the application by World Television
 15       Network for a national specialty service licence.
 16  1262                 Le réseau télémonde a déposé une
 17       demande de licence en vue d'exploiter un service
 18       spécialisé avec des droits d'accès bien particuliers et
 19       préférentiels.  WTM exige au minimum la distribution
 20       analogique obligatoire sur le volet facultatif
 21       affichant le plus fort taux de pénétration, à un prix
 22       de gros de 0,35 $.  WTM souligne bien que la
 23       distribution sur le service de base serait encore
 24       préférable.
 25  1263                 For the reasons outlined in our


  1       written submission and as we are going to summarize in
  2       these oral remarks, CCTA submits that WTM's request
  3       should be denied.
  4  1264                 As the Commission is aware from
  5       CCTA's written comments, we fully support the
  6       Commission's previous decision to grant WTM a
  7       Category 2 specialty television service licence for
  8       digital distribution.  We believe that licensing WTM
  9       for mandatory analog carriage would be inconsistent
 10       with the Commission's digital licensing framework and
 11       would fail to recognize the potential of digital
 12       technology to deliver a greater diversity of services
 13       in accordance with the Broadcasting Act objectives.
 14  1265                 In December of last year, following a
 15       careful and comprehensive review of WTM's application,
 16       the Commission denied WTM's request for guaranteed
 17       access to analog distribution on cable. The Commission
 18       concluded that WTM's proposed service could complement
 19       existing mainstream, multilingual and third-language
 20       services and awarded WTM a Category 2 digital licence.
 21  1266                 Dans deux décisions distinctes
 22       relatives au service proposé par WTM, le conseil a
 23       conclu que le service n'avait pas, en vertu des
 24       objectifs énoncés dans la loi sur la radiodiffusion,
 25       l'«importance exceptionnelle» qui aurait justifié qu'on


  1       lui garantisse l'accès à la distribution obligatoire
  2       sur un canal analogique.
  3  1267                 In our view, WTM's carriage request
  4       remains inappropriate given increasing and competing
  5       demands for capacity and in light of existing
  6       broadcasting policy objectives.
  7  1268                 Our industry has invested $5 billion
  8       over the last 5 years to upgrade our networks in order
  9       to deliver high quality, two-way digital services to
 10       consumers.  However, cable operators continue to face
 11       considerable and growing demands on their capacity.
 12  1269                 The vast majority of Canadian cable
 13       subscribers now have access to all of the new
 14       Category 1 digital services, various Category 2 digital
 15       services and a number of French language services in
 16       anglophone markets.  In addition, cable operators have
 17       already been asked to consider future requirements for
 18       capacity for new services, such as over-the-air digital
 19       broadcasting and high definition television.
 20  1270                 In light of these increasing demands
 21       on capacity for new services, analog distribution of
 22       specialty services is simply no longer a viable option.
 23       As the Commission stated in its earlier decision, cable
 24       operators would be forced to remove or displace an
 25       existing service to accommodate WTM on analog.  Not


  1       only would this constitute a significant disruption to
  2       subscribers, it would be wholly at odds with the policy
  3       goal of advancing the transition from analog to digital
  4       distribution.
  5  1271                 The Commission has recognized in a
  6       number of decisions that digital technology creates
  7       abundant new opportunities to deliver diverse specialty
  8       services aimed at both niche and general audiences.  It
  9       also provides consumers with the long-awaited ability
 10       to choose the content that interests them most and to
 11       effectively determine the price that they are prepared
 12       to pay for that content.
 13  1272                 In this regard, we fully agree with
 14       WTM that the starting point in assessing appropriate
 15       carriage should be section 3(1)(t) of the Broadcasting
 16       Act.  As noted by WTM, section 3(i)(t)(ii) states that
 17       distributors:
 18                              "...should provide efficient
 19                              delivery of programming at
 20                              affordable rates using the most
 21                              effective technologies available
 22                              at reasonable cost".
 23  1273                 In our view, licensing WTM as an
 24       analog service with mandatory carriage, either on basic
 25       or a tier, would not constitute efficient delivery of


  1       programming at affordable rates.  Nor would it satisfy
  2       the objective of using the most effective technologies
  3       available at reasonable cost.  Licensing WTM as a
  4       Category 2 digital specialty service, on the other
  5       hand, would be entirely consistent with the objectives
  6       contained in section 3(1)(t).
  7  1274                 Finally, WTM suggests that failing to
  8       licence its service for mandatory analog carriage would
  9       be contrary to the diversity objectives of the
 10       Broadcasting Act.  We submit this is simply not the
 11       case.
 12  1275                 First, the link between diversity and
 13       analog carriage is not self-evident.  In fact, creating
 14       an additional analog channel to carry WTM could
 15       actually have the effect of reducing diversity by using
 16       up capacity that might otherwise be available for as
 17       many as 10 or more new digital services.  The math is
 18       that simple: one analog service or 10 digital ones.
 19  1276                 Second, the Commission has already
 20       demonstrated a sensible and comprehensive approach to
 21       satisfying the Broadcasting Act's multicultural
 22       objectives.  It has licensed a number of analog
 23       over-the-air and specialty ethnic television services,
 24       including two new over-the-air services in Vancouver
 25       and Toronto


  1  1277                 In addition, numerous ethnic and
  2       foreign language specialty services are available to
  3       cable and DTH subscribers on a digital basis.
  4  1278                 Given the vast amount of
  5       multicultural programming already available to
  6       Canadians, it is clearly inaccurate to suggest that the
  7       act's multicultural policy objective can only be
  8       satisfied by licensing WTM for mandatory analog
  9       carriage.
 10  1279                 In summary, we believe that given the
 11       Commission's licensing framework and the growing
 12       digital environment, it would be inappropriate and
 13       inconsistent with Commission policy to license a new
 14       specialty service for mandatory analog carriage at this
 15       time.  Rather, we submit that the Commission should
 16       confirm its earlier decision to award WTM a Category 2
 17       digital licence.
 18  1280                 Thank you for the opportunity to
 19       provide these comments.  We would be pleased to answer
 20       your questions.
 21  1281                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 22       much.  I have one or two questions.
 23  1282                 As you know, this is not a typical
 24       CRCT hearing.  This is a reconsideration hearing.  We
 25       have been given a matter that the governor in council


  1       has referred back to us to consider and to reconsider
  2       in fact and hear and that is the appropriate options
  3       for the carriage of BDUs of services that aspire to
  4       reflect and connect Canada's multicultural communities
  5       to broader audiences, so I want to ask you about both
  6       parts of that.
  7  1283                 To begin with, on the carriage and
  8       appropriate options for carriage by BDUs, were you
  9       present when the applicant modified the carriage
 10       proposals that they had originally put forward earlier
 11       in the afternoon?
 12  1284                 MS YALE:  Yes.
 13  1285                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have any
 14       comments and would your position change at all in light
 15       of those modifications to their carriage proposals?
 16  1286                 MS YALE:  I don't think their
 17       modifications change our position.  At the end of the
 18       day, the fundamental question in front of you is
 19       whether or not to grant them a mandatory analog
 20       service.  Our view is very simply that digital is the
 21       way of the future and that there is nothing in their
 22       proposal that warrants the exceptional treatment that
 23       they are proposing for analog distribution either in a
 24       high penetration tier on basic.
 25  1287                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think that


  1       in light of the criteria for our consideration that I
  2       discussed with Mr. Marchant, I don't know whether you
  3       were present in regard to that, the criteria flowing
  4       from the earlier public notice, essentially exceptional
  5       circumstances.
  6  1288                 Do you think that you say that you
  7       don't believe that they have met those criteria?
  8  1289                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  I would be
  9       pleased to answer that.
 10  1290                 I think that the Commission has made
 11       it very, very clear on a number of occasions what kind
 12       of test has to be satisfied in order to licence a
 13       service for mandatory carriage under 9(i)(h) of the
 14       Broadcasting Act.  It has decided on two separate
 15       occasions, using its own criteria of exceptional
 16       importance, that WTM did not satisfy that criteria. 
 17       Our view is that the Commission is entirely well-suited
 18       to determine the appropriate test for determining
 19       whether or not a service merits licensing under
 20       9(1)(h).
 21  1291                 We fully support the application of
 22       that test of exceptional importance.  It has to be
 23       exceptional importance.  If it wasn't such a high
 24       standard, it would be too easy for virtually any
 25       specialty service to make the argument that they merit


  1       licensing under 9(1)(h).  In order for it to be treated
  2       as an exceptional type of a section, which I think
  3       everybody acknowledges that it is, the test for
  4       licensing the service under that section has to be that
  5       somehow there has to be something exceptionally
  6       different than all other services in order to merit
  7       that kind of a carriage option.
  8  1292                 In our view, the Commission has
  9       correctly applied that test on two separate occasions. 
 10       We continue to believe that is the correct test.
 11  1293                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  We find
 12       ourselves in the situation where the matter has been
 13       referred back to us and attention has been drawn to the
 14       carriage of services that aspire to reflect and connect
 15       Canada's multicultural communities to broader
 16       audiences.  Additional information has been filed by
 17       the applicant in order to show that it is in such a
 18       service or has I guess two services, is its position,
 19       that aspire to reflect and connect Canada's
 20       multicultural communities to broader audiences.
 21  1294                 In my discussion earlier with their
 22       counsel, we agreed on the statement of the test that
 23       you have just alluded to, exceptional importance of the
 24       proposed service to the achievement of the objectives
 25       of the Broadcasting Act.  I am asking you whether at


  1       this stage in the process, and in light of the
  2       additional material that they have filed, if you think
  3       that they may have actually passed that test or not?
  4  1295                 MS YALE:  Let me take a crack at
  5       that.
  6  1296                 The way I look at their services,
  7       that they are really two distinct parts of their
  8       programming undertaking that you can think about in
  9       terms of whether or not the test has been met.  The
 10       first piece is the foreign product that they propose to
 11       bring in on a subtitle basis that would be targeted to
 12       the non-ethnic community.  The question is whether or
 13       not that exposure of Canadians to that foreign
 14       subtitled programming would somehow enhance the
 15       multicultural understanding in this country.  In my
 16       view that simply will not happen.
 17  1297                 I think that the foreign programming
 18       will be of primary interest to whom that language of
 19       programming is appealing and it will not be of interest
 20       to a mass Canadian audience.  The Commission stated as
 21       much in one of its earlier decisions.  I continue to
 22       agree with that view, that is not the way in which you
 23       are going to promote multicultural understanding.  In
 24       fact, there are many specialty services, ethnic
 25       services and so on, and you are going to be hearing


  1       from some of them later today, who in fact do that kind
  2       of thing already, bring in foreign programming and
  3       either dub or subtitle it, so I don't see that is going
  4       to contribute in any kind of way.
  5  1298                 The second piece of their programming
  6       is the Canadian programming element where they are
  7       saying that somehow they will, through the way in which
  8       they do their Canadian programming, contribute to the
  9       multicultural understanding in this country.  Again, I
 10       would have to say that there are a full range of
 11       existing over-the-air broadcasters, both multicultural
 12       and general interest, who make a substantial
 13       contribution in that area, both in terms of the
 14       programming they offer and in terms of the diversity of
 15       their on-air personalities.
 16  1299                 Again, I am sure the Canadian
 17       Association of Broadcasters can answer that aspect more
 18       fully but I just think that the existing broadcasting
 19       system taken as a whole contributes fully to that
 20       objective of the act and that there is not the kind of
 21       gap that would warrant the exceptional treatment of
 22       this particular service.
 23  1300                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of course they say
 24       that when TVA was presenting a similar proposal and
 25       when the aboriginal community was presenting a similar


  1       proposal the cable industry took the same position
  2       naturally because mandatory carriage means that the
  3       price of cable rates goes up, and we are aware of that. 
  4       Yet they are saying Canada has granted the francophone
  5       community carriage in English Canada.  It has granted
  6       the aboriginal community a channel of their own.  Now,
  7       in keeping with the demographic realities of Canada, it
  8       is time that we have a multicultural programming
  9       service that has the same access to Canadians as the
 10       Commission granted those and so the time has now come
 11       for that.
 12  1301                 Do you have any comments on that?
 13  1302                 MS YALE:  Certainly I think the
 14       Commission, in recently licensing further multicultural
 15       over-the-air services has recognized that there may
 16       well be a demand and those over-the-air services will
 17       get priority carriage and the cable industry will have
 18       to carry them.  Whether that might be our first choice
 19       or not, the fact of the matter is that if there is a
 20       mandatory obligation to carry something, whether it is
 21       a priority carriage situation or otherwise, we will do
 22       that.
 23  1303                 The question is:  is the only way to
 24       achieve the multicultural objectives of the act to have
 25       a single service that carries that burden?  I think my


  1       previous answer was designed to suggest that there are
  2       a variety of ways in which that objective is achieved
  3       through the mix of over-the-air general interest
  4       services, over-the-air specialty or ethnic services. 
  5       There are specialty services like Fairchild, Telelatino
  6       and so on.  There is the community channel that
  7       provides a fair degree of multicultural programming as
  8       well as there are 40 new Category 2 digital services in
  9       third languages.  I just don't see that there is a gap,
 10       frankly.
 11  1304                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  I would just like
 12       to add something to that.
 13  1305                 I think in the case of APTN and TVA
 14       particularly there is a perception that there was a gap
 15       among the Broadcasting Act objectives that somehow was
 16       not being satisfied that required the licensing of
 17       those services on a mandatory analog basis.  The
 18       objective in the act is that the system reflect
 19       multicultural objectives or multicultural-
 20       multilingual-multiethnic identities of Canadians.  It
 21       doesn't say that one particular channel has to be
 22       devoted to reflecting that objective.  Provided that
 23       the system meets that objective then the overall policy
 24       objectives of the act are being met.
 25  1306                 I think that is what we are trying to


  1       get at here today is that the objective has already
  2       been fully met throughout the system at all different
  3       levels.  As you will hear from intervenors later on
  4       today, they are doing a pretty good job and the
  5       Commission has done an excellent job of trying to
  6       encourage and promote that throughout the system.
  7  1307                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could the same
  8       arguments not have been made about aboriginal
  9       programming or French language programming at the time?
 10  1308                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  Certainly in the
 11       case of aboriginal programming I don't think that
 12       argument was ever made that that was something that was
 13       being fully reflected on the system.  Similarly,
 14       minority language markets, there was an argument
 15       perhaps that French language programming in particular
 16       was not being reflected in majority language markets.
 17  1309                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  If you go
 18       outside the major urban centres now, where would you
 19       say that multiculturalism programming is reflected?
 20  1310                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  Janet went
 21       through a whole list of services that are carried both
 22       in urban and outside urban markets over the air. 
 23       Broadcasters such as CHUM, Citytv, CFMT, CFMT-TOO, just
 24       to name a few.  If you look at the long list of ethnic
 25       specialty services that are appearing before you, those


  1       are available to every Canadian through satellite
  2       signals.  I am not sure it is an urban/rural
  3       distinction to be made.  Those services are available
  4       throughout Canada.
  5  1311                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is CFMT available
  6       throughout Canada?
  7  1312                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  Probably
  8       throughout most of Canada through using a distant
  9       signal type of policy or through significant
 10       portions --
 11  1313                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  The new licensee in
 12       Vancouver is probably not going to appreciate that if
 13       it is.
 14  1314                 MS YALE:  I can't speak to whether or
 15       not every single service is in every community.  I
 16       guess the fundamental question, though, that I come
 17       back to is whether or not this service actually does
 18       that.  I think my answer really is that it doesn't.  I
 19       don't think subtitled foreign language programming is
 20       going to facilitate an understanding of the
 21       multicultural nature of Canadian society.  I think it
 22       is going to be incredibly unpopular.
 23  1315                 I think that programming, as I said,
 24       appeals primarily to the ethnic group -- depending on
 25       the slice of the programming you are talking about --


  1       to the ethnic group in whose language that programming
  2       is offered.  For those people, they would much prefer
  3       to have a channel devoted exclusively to programming in
  4       that language.
  5  1316                 As far as the Canadian programming is
  6       concerned, as I said, I think when it comes to the
  7       Canadian portion of their program schedule that the
  8       existing over-the-air broadcasters and the specialty
  9       services do a very good job through their programming
 10       and through their on-air presence of doing that job of
 11       promoting and enhancing that understanding of the
 12       multicultural nature of Canadian society.
 13  1317                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 14  1318                 Have you read the applicant's reply
 15       to the CCTA intervention dated May 1?
 16  1319                 MS YALE:  Yes.
 17  1320                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wanted you to
 18       address any comments you wish to on any aspect of it. 
 19       But I wanted to draw your attention particularly to the
 20       point regarding capacity, total analog capacity, in the
 21       table that they provide on page 3 and the following
 22       paragraphs.  Are those accurate as far as you are
 23       concerned?
 24  1321                 MS YALE:  I would say that what is
 25       true is that total capacity is increasing but the


  1       reference that they take to the idea that there is
  2       planned additions to analog capacity I think is
  3       erroneous.  The way the cable system is currently
  4       structured, analog capacity is primarily found below
  5       550 megahertz, so all of the plant additions that are
  6       taking these cable systems to 750 megahertz and beyond
  7       may be talked about in terms of planned additions to
  8       capacity or planned analog capacity, but the fact of
  9       the matter is above 550 megahertz it is all engineered
 10       to the provision of digital services and devoted to the
 11       provision of digital services.  So there is no new
 12       vacant analog capacity.
 13  1322                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have any
 14       other comments on the reply that you would like to draw
 15       our attention to?
 16  1323                 MS YALE:  I don't know if this is the
 17       best time to make it but I think one of the things that
 18       I would like to comment on is, in particular, the
 19       notion of this incredibly large advantage they have
 20       from analogue relative to digital distribution.  I
 21       think a lot has changed from when they first filed for
 22       a licence.
 23  1324                 We were at the start of the launch of
 24       direct-to-home digital, cable was kind of barely
 25       started several years ago, and so whatever the business


  1       plans -- and we have been talking about whether the
  2       business plan needs to be updated or whatever they were
  3       comparing, that business plan is comparing the need for
  4       analog in that environment.  If you look at current
  5       numbers, by the end of this year alone there will be
  6       between 3.7 and 4 million digital homes in this country
  7       between cable and satellite.  That is just a completely
  8       different scenario than what we were considering
  9       several years ago when this applicant first came
 10       forward.  By the time the applicants would launch,
 11       which is -- I heard him earlier refer to a date of
 12       September 2003 -- it will probably be another million
 13       beyond that so we are looking at close to 5 million
 14       homes as a potential market in terms of digital
 15       distribution.  That is bigger than the base of
 16       potential homes that saw the launch of the tier three
 17       analog services.
 18  1325                 I think the events have overtaken us
 19       a little bit in terms of this huge disconnect between
 20       the world of analog and digital.  As I say, from the
 21       cable industry's perspective, the question is not
 22       really a capacity issue.  The question is:  what is the
 23       best use of that 6 megahertz of capacity?  Is it one an
 24       analog service or is it 10 or so digital services of
 25       which this would be one?


  1  1326                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  The difference of
  2       course being that the rate is negotiated, access is
  3       negotiated and a new licensee has to be able to
  4       conclude satisfactory agreements as distinct from
  5       access on the basis that is being requested.  So from a
  6       financial view, even with the numbers, those two
  7       scenarios are quite different.
  8  1327                 MS YALE:  I don't disagree the two
  9       scenarios are different financially, but any applicant
 10       could come before you and say, "Make me whole from a
 11       business plan perspective".  That is not a reason for
 12       giving anybody analog carriage in this competitive
 13       environment.  There are many specialty ethnic services
 14       that have struggled for years without that kind of
 15       carriage and have figured out how to continue on,
 16       notwithstanding more limited penetration and
 17       distribution and have found their market.
 18  1328                 I understand why that is the story
 19       they are selling.  It is not clear that is why you
 20       should buy it in the sense that every service in this
 21       competitive marketplace has to find its consumer base.
 22  1329                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess their
 23       position is that the category of licence they were
 24       awarded is just a non-viable licence.  Are you
 25       suggesting that in your view, under the circumstances


  1       you are describing, with more digital penetration, that
  2       is incorrect and that now the service would be viable
  3       in this environment?
  4  1330                 MS YALE:  I have no idea whether or
  5       not it would be viable any more than any of the other
  6       digital services know whether or not they are viable
  7       when they launch.  The question is:  what would take
  8       them out of being like any other digital ethnic service
  9       that it coming forward or third language service that
 10       is coming forward and trying to establish a base?  It
 11       comes back to the exceptional importance test which we
 12       believe they haven't met.
 13  1331                 All I am saying, though, is that the
 14       circumstances and the potential they have is much
 15       greater than it would have been several years ago
 16       because of the huge growth in fact beyond what we had
 17       predicted ourselves.  The CCTA was asked when these
 18       digital services were licensed several years ago to
 19       provide forecasts that were used by many of the
 20       applicants in that digital licensing proceeding to put
 21       their business plans together.  At this point, we are
 22       at the top -- the reality is actually ahead of our
 23       forecasts.
 24  1332                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  1333                 Commissioner McKendry.


  1  1334                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I take it
  2       that you see Mr. Iannuzzi's service primarily as
  3       another ethnic service because you have cited examples
  4       of other ethnic services to make your point that there
  5       is no need out there, that the market is well-served
  6       already.  Is that how you see his service, as another
  7       ethnic service?
  8  1335                 MS YALE:  The short answer is, yes,
  9       at the end of the day what is appealing about that
 10       service is the third language programming to the subset
 11       of consumers that might be interested in that third
 12       language.  I do not see that this would have appeal to
 13       a wider audience.
 14  1336                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  If I could just
 15       add to that quickly.
 16  1337                 Even if it is a more broad appeal
 17       service, my view is that is not determinative.  At the
 18       end of the day, the test is still exceptional
 19       importance.  Even if it is a broad appeal service,
 20       which many specialty services in fact are, it does not
 21       necessarily mean that they get priority carriage over
 22       other existing programming services.  I wouldn't want
 23       to rest the distinction on whether it is an ethnic or
 24       somehow a more broadly described service.  The bottom
 25       line at the end of the day is whether it is of such


  1       importance that it needs to be licensed in this fashion
  2       in order to achieve the objectives of the act.  Our
  3       view is that the Commission has correctly said that is
  4       not the case.
  5  1338                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  It seems to
  6       me there is a bit of a disconnect here.  You see it
  7       primarily as an ethnic service.  I take it Mr. Iannuzzi
  8       doesn't see his service as an ethnic service and he can
  9       speak for himself about that.  But what I have taken so
 10       far from the hearing is that in fact he doesn't view it
 11       as an ethnic service at all.  He views it as something
 12       quite different.
 13  1339                 Your position is coming from the view
 14       that it is an ethnic service.  His view is, and I think
 15       he has explained it reasonably well, that it is not an
 16       ethnic service, certainly at least in the traditional
 17       sense of things.  You know, he has described
 18       multiculturalism as a way of life.  He said it is a
 19       particular expression of the Canadian reality.  One of
 20       his colleagues talked about programming that would be
 21       selected first because it was entertaining to a broad
 22       spectrum of Canadians, not because it was entertaining
 23       to a particular ethnic community.  Another one of his
 24       colleagues talked about programs that dealt with a
 25       clash, and I think he meant that in a positive sense,


  1       interaction between different multicultural groups and
  2       how they interface with each other and live with each
  3       other and resolve problems and take advantage of the
  4       benefits of each other and so on.  I took it from
  5       Mr. Iannuzzi that he doesn't see this at all as an
  6       ethnic service.
  7  1340                 MS YALE:  That is absolutely correct. 
  8       He doesn't see it that way.  But I guess I would
  9       respond in two ways.  The first is that the Commission
 10       itself in previous decisions has been doubtful that the
 11       service would be of appeal to a broader Canadian
 12       audience and I echo the Commission's views on that.
 13  1341                 Having said that, what Lori
 14       Assheton-Smith just said is the fundamental point,
 15       which is that even if we take him at his word that that
 16       is what the service is about, that is not determinative
 17       of whether or not it meets the exceptional importance
 18       test.
 19  1342                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  I would also like
 20       to add that even if you describe it as a multicultural
 21       service as opposed to an ethnic service, WTN does not
 22       have a monopoly on multiculturalism, as we have said
 23       before.  It is not just competing against ethnic
 24       services.  The multicultural facets of Canadian life
 25       are reflected all over the digital and analog channels


  1       today.  You will hear more about that from other
  2       intervenors as the day goes on.
  3  1343                 The Commission has already expressed
  4       its concerns in this regard and has asked for a
  5       cultural diversity plan to be put forward by the CAB,
  6       has looked in other avenues to make sure that those
  7       clashes or experiences or lifestyles are in fact
  8       reflected in mainstream and in specialty programming
  9       services.
 10  1344                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  But I guess
 11       in fairness you would acknowledge there are intervenors
 12       that don't feel that multiculturalism is being
 13       reflected as it should be in our broadcasting system.
 14  1345                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  I acknowledge
 15       that.
 16  1346                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  The other
 17       question I had was you indicated, Ms Yale, that you
 18       felt that if a program was broadcast in, say, German,
 19       that the primary audience would be German-speaking
 20       people.  I think Mr. Iannuzzi's view is different, as
 21       we have discussed.
 22  1347                 What leads you to the view that the
 23       primary audience will be German-speaking people.  What
 24       do you base that on?
 25  1348                 MS YALE:  Just on the willingness of


  1       people to watch subtitled programming on a regular
  2       basis.  I am not saying there wouldn't be some interest
  3       in it.  In fact, the specialty ethnic services that
  4       exist today, and you will be hearing from some of them
  5       this afternoon, do both subtitled and dubbed
  6       programming.  Absolutely the reason they are doing it
  7       is to appeal to an audience that is broader than the
  8       one in whose language the programming is offered.
  9  1349                 I am not saying it has no appeal, but
 10       again it comes to whether or not this is going to
 11       enhance our understanding of different cultures in this
 12       country.  There may be people for whom foreign language
 13       programming is of interest and is made accessible
 14       through subtitling and dubbing.  I have no quarrel with
 15       that.  I think there is quite a range of that product
 16       already available through the existing licensees.
 17  1350                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you
 18       very much.
 19  1351                 MR. HOWARD:  Just one fast question.
 20  1352                 If I understand the argument
 21       correctly, you are saying that there is a requirement
 22       for multicultural programming in the Broadcasting Act
 23       and that one of the ways of serving that is by
 24       licensing the ethnic services that have been licensed;
 25       in other words, subsumed within the multicultural is


  1       ethnic.  Is that your position?
  2  1353                 MS ASSHETON-SMITH:  Yes.  The word
  3       multicultural and I believe multiethnic and
  4       multilingual are all mentioned in the act and I think
  5       they have different facets.  Certainly ethnic
  6       programming does undoubtedly reflect one element of the
  7       multicultural objectives under the act.
  8  1354                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
  9  1355                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 10       much.
 11  1356                 Mr. Secretary.
 12  1357                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 13  1358                 The next appearing intervention will
 14       be presented by the Canadian Association of
 15       Broadcasters.  Appearing for the CAB, Mr. Glenn
 16       O'Farrell with somebody else.  For the record, it is
 17       Madam Sylvie Courtemanche.
 19  1359                 MR. O'FARRELL:  Good afternoon,
 20       Mr. Chair.
 21  1360                 We had notes for our presentation
 22       thinking that it would be for this morning, but having
 23       heard the exchange we had to toss aside our prepared
 24       notes because, as you said, this is a different hearing
 25       for a variety of reasons.  Consequently, our comments


  1       will not be able to reflect all of the components of
  2       the exchange we heard with the Commission because we
  3       would like to absorb them and some, frankly, we still
  4       do not understand.
  5  1361                 For the record, my name is
  6       Glenn O'Farrell.  I am President and Chief Executive
  7       Officer of the CAB.
  8  1362                 To my right is Sylvie Courtemanche,
  9       Vice-President, Policy and Regulatory Affairs.
 10  1363                 In 1992 and again in 2000, the
 11       Commission denied similar applications by World
 12       Television Network for a national service with
 13       distribution on a high penetration analog tier.
 14  1364                 Then in 2001, the Commission approved
 15       a Category 2 digital licence for World Television
 16       Network.
 17  1365                 For the past 10 years, the Commission
 18       has denied the various applications for analog cable
 19       distribution citing a variety of reasons.
 20  1366                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  These ranged from,
 21       one, concerns over Canadian content levels to, two,
 22       deficiencies in programming to, three, the applicant's
 23       failure to justify analog carriage based on the
 24       exceptional importance of the service.
 25  1367                 Essentially, the CAB's position can


  1       be summarized as follows.  The Commission was 100 per
  2       cent correct when it awarded World Television Network a
  3       Category 2 digital licence.
  4  1368                 From where we stand today, and we are
  5       only basing our comments on what is written because we
  6       have not seen what is going to be filed but what we
  7       know is on the public record, we believe that there is
  8       nothing that warrants any decision other than a
  9       Category 2 digital licence.
 10  1369                 If the Commission believes that a
 11       service of the type proposed by World Television
 12       Network should receive a greater distribution than that
 13       accorded to a Category 2 digital licence, it should
 14       issue an open call for competitive applications for a
 15       Category 1 digital licence.
 16  1370                 The Commission's decision in 2001 to
 17       award World Television Network a Category 2 digital
 18       licence we think accurately reflects the Commission's
 19       January 2000 policy of licensing new specialty and pay
 20       services on digital only.  This is of course the
 21       cornerstone of the Commission's digital licensing
 22       framework policy.  Each new analog service absorbs
 23       enough bandwidth for 10 to 12 new digital services.
 24  1371                 The CAB believes strongly in the
 25       merits of the Commission's policy that all new


  1       specialty and pay services should only receive digital
  2       licences since this constitutes the best method of
  3       ensuring choice and diversity in the broadcasting
  4       system.
  5  1372                 Given the importance of the digital
  6       platform to the future of the Canadian broadcasting
  7       system, the CAB is compelled to refute a spurious
  8       argument advanced by World Television Network in its
  9       responses to several intervenors.  Specifically, World
 10       Television Network cites paragraph 3(1)(t) of the
 11       Broadcasting Act which requires BDUs to make use of the
 12       most effective technologies available at a reasonable
 13       cost.  World Television Network goes on to assert:
 14                              "Digital has been shown,
 15                              contrary to some predictions, to
 16                              be inefficient, expensive and
 17                              ineffective, and is a method
 18                              which should not be used." 
 19                              (As read)
 20  1373                 This is patently false and is a clear
 21       misrepresentation of the current state of the digital
 22       distribution system in Canada.  Digital penetration in
 23       Canada is proceeding at a pace that has outstripped
 24       even the most optimistic estimates at the time of the
 25       2000 digital licensing hearing.  All of the digital


  1       services launched in the autumn of 2001 are still on
  2       the air.  This was the single largest launch of new
  3       channels in the history of broadcasting.  Its success
  4       can be seen in the growing popularity of the new
  5       digital services.
  6  1374                 Digital penetration is proceeding at
  7       a faster rate in Canada than in the United States. 
  8       This means that Canadians, in growing numbers, are
  9       discovering the quality and choice of digital
 10       television.
 11  1375                 Les raisons fournies par le réseau
 12       télémonde à l'appui de son affirmation qu'il n'est pas
 13       approprié d'assujettir son service à une licence
 14       d'exploitation en mode numérique sont trompeuses et mal
 15       avisées et doivent être corrigées aux fins du dossier.
 16  1376                 L'ACR ne s'est pas présentée ici
 17       aujourd'hui pour débattre le mérite de la catégorie de
 18       programmation ethnique par rapport à d'autres
 19       catégories.
 20  1377                 Enfin, nous applaudissons le Conseil
 21       pour avoir autorisé en 2000 50 services numériques
 22       ethniques de Catégorie 2.  A ce chef, nous notons qu'à
 23       date neuf de ces services ethniques de Catégorie 2 ont
 24       lancé leurs services de programmation.
 25  1378                 Ces services ont été autorisés après


  1       le déroulement d'un processus public et ouvert et en
  2       respectant complètement le cadre de politiques relatif
  3       à l'autorisation des services en mode numérique.
  4  1379                 Si le Conseil modifiait sa décision
  5       maintenant, il remettrait en question les politiques,
  6       les pratiques et les précédents établis en permettant
  7       aux requérants de passer en première ligne, ce qui
  8       n'avantagerait aucunement le système de radiodiffusion
  9       canadien.
 10  1380                 Pour ces raisons, les politiques et
 11       les précédents, l'ACR félicite le Conseil d'avoir pris
 12       la décision en 2001 d'autoriser le réseau télémonde à
 13       tire de services numériques de Catégorie 2 et nous
 14       l'incitons de maintenir cette décision.
 15  1381                 In its December 2001 decision, the
 16       Commission found several shortcomings in World
 17       Television Network's proposed programming.  We
 18       understand that World Television Network has taken a
 19       number of steps and continues to do so in the context
 20       of this proceeding.  Based on what we know in the
 21       public record today, we don't think that these
 22       adjustments have provided sufficient grounds for the
 23       Commission to change its previous conclusions.
 24  1382                 Turning to the issue of carriage,
 25       quite frankly, we are no longer sure what statement we


  1       can make on that basis.  We understand that there is
  2       going to be a more concrete proposal put in in that
  3       respect and some business plans that are going to
  4       support that proposal because I have never seen so many
  5       models being proposed in respect of a particular
  6       service.  We are certainly not clear what comments we
  7       can provide in that regard.
  8  1383                 What is clear I think is that what
  9       World Television Network is seeking is a much higher
 10       degree of penetration, that which it was denied in
 11       2001, so I think that is clear.  We will see how that
 12       is or is not supported with the business plans that
 13       will be filed at a later date.
 14  1384                 Again, we would like to reiterate
 15       that we think the Commission's digital licensing
 16       framework is a good policy.  It is a sound policy
 17       because it allows for an open and competitive process. 
 18       It is a forward-looking policy and it balances public
 19       policy and market considerations.  It ensures that
 20       programmers will contribute to make the maximum
 21       possible contribution to the objectives of the
 22       Broadcasting Act as well.
 23  1385                 But if the Commission was to
 24       conclude, based on the record that is going to be
 25       compiled in this particular proceeding, that another


  1       national multicultural service is warranted and that
  2       this service should receive greater penetration than
  3       that which was ordered in 2001, then we think the
  4       Commission should issue an open call for competitive
  5       applications for a Category 1 licence.  We think that
  6       this call would achieve a number of objectives.  We
  7       think it would reflect the important considerations
  8       inherent in the digital licensing framework policy with
  9       respect to making the best possible use of the limited
 10       capacity of Canadian distributors and it would also
 11       reinforce the Commission's dedication to ensuring that
 12       Canadians have access to the best possible service.
 13  1386                 Before I conclude our remarks, I do
 14       want to say that we look forward at the CAB to having
 15       an opportunity to comment on the revised business plans
 16       and that we understand will be filed at a date to be
 17       determined.  We will obviously provide our additional
 18       comments at that time.
 19  1387                 In the meantime, this concludes our
 20       remarks and we would be pleased to answer your
 21       questions.  Thank you.
 22  1388                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 23       much.  I have a few questions.
 24  1389                 As you know, and as Mr. O'Farrell
 25       correctly pointed out, this is not a normal licensing


  1       proceeding but a reconsideration and hearing
  2       proceeding.  We are charged with fully assessing the
  3       appropriate options for carriage.
  4  1390                 I don't think you meant to be unfair,
  5       Ms Courtemanche, in your comments but in trying to do
  6       that we are exploring with the applicant various
  7       options so that we can fulfil the mandate that the
  8       governor in council has required of us.  Sometimes it
  9       shifts and there will be new filings, but I wonder
 10       whether you would have anything more to address on
 11       their current proposal as they put forward just after
 12       lunch in regard to their carriage.
 13  1391                 I can review them as I have them down
 14       if you like, unless you did on your own.  Perhaps you
 15       can help me with the specifics of those carriage
 16       options that they put forward for both majority and
 17       minority carriage of their service.
 18  1392                 MR. O'FARRELL:  Perhaps I could
 19       start, Mr. Chairman, and I will pass it to Sylvie.
 20  1393                 We applaud the fact that you have
 21       conducted the hearing the way you have to allow for a
 22       full discussion on all options so that the order in
 23       council can be properly responded to.  We were simply
 24       commenting, and certainly not in any way, shape or form
 25       suggesting that that was inappropriate but suggesting


  1       that our ability to be helpful to you and to the
  2       process is somewhat impaired by that and that we would
  3       look forward to filing comments with you when the
  4       revised business plans are available and so on and
  5       forth.
  6  1394                 That would be very much, I think, in
  7       keeping with the dynamic process that you have led here
  8       to explore all the options.
  9  1395                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is fair enough
 10       and if you want to wait until then you will be given an
 11       opportunity to comment at that point.
 12  1396                 I also wanted to discuss with you the
 13       issue of the point that you made, in fact, I raised it
 14       at the outset of the hearing with the applicant, which
 15       is should the Commission decide that a multicultural
 16       service should be given, call it priority carriage just
 17       for discussion purposes, such as their requesting the
 18       competition should be thrown open and the Commission
 19       should have the best proposals before it from which to
 20       choose.
 21  1397                 The applicant's response to that was
 22       that would actually not be fair in its view because
 23       they have been there since the beginning, they have put
 24       forward the proposals, where were other people along
 25       the way.  They have been here, have put forward this


  1       proposal.  I suppose if one looked back on the two
  2       cases that they cite where the Commission declared
  3       certain services to come within the special importance
  4       category of the regulations, 9(1)(h), in those cases,
  5       there weren't competitive applications either.  There
  6       was TVA, which was then given carriage across the
  7       country, and there was APTN, which didn't have a
  8       competitive applicant against it.
  9  1398                 So balancing off the fairness
 10       considerations on both sides, I wonder whether you
 11       would comment on the applicant's response to the
 12       question you have raised and the additional factor of
 13       the precedence that I just raised.
 14  1399                 MR. O'FARRELL:  I will let Sylvie
 15       speak to the precedence.
 16  1400                 As to the applicant's contention that
 17       they are entitled to some special treatment by the
 18       Commission in view of the fact that they have applied
 19       numerous times over the years for a licence of this
 20       genre, mind you, I think it is fair to say it has
 21       evolved somewhat over the course of time, that
 22       certainly was not the Commission's practice to give any
 23       particular status or privilege to an applicant if I
 24       think of -- and his name escapes me right now, but I
 25       think of the individual who applied for almost 10 years


  1       in Alberta, on at least two occasions that I can recall
  2       if not three, seeking a licence.  Ultimately, when the
  3       Commission awarded a licence it went to another player.
  4  1401                 You know, this is not I don't think
  5       the Commission's practice nor would it be sound
  6       practice to entitle or award a privilege to an
  7       applicant who has brought previous applications before
  8       the Commission that have been turned down on their
  9       merits.  A competitive application would in fact
 10       produce what competitive processes generally do,
 11       qualitative and quantitative measurements of what is
 12       the best application under the circumstances.
 13  1402                 As to the precedence --
 14  1403                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps just before
 15       you get to the precedence, I took that point to be
 16       slightly different from that because I don't disagree
 17       with what you have said.  I think that you are --
 18       nobody has grandfather rights in a competitive process. 
 19       But I took their point to be that this is a
 20       reconsideration proceeding and it was in the context of
 21       the options available to us in this proceeding.  I
 22       think their point was why would you have to rescind our
 23       decision, because that would have to be the order, you
 24       would rescind the decision but somehow find that there
 25       was room for a priority carriage, multicultural system


  1       and then you would call for open applications.  They
  2       were saying:  you don't have to do that; you have
  3       another option which is to confirm the decision with
  4       variation and vary it by granting us the carriage we
  5       seek because we have been here and we are the applicant
  6       before you and we have a track record of having been
  7       proposing this kind of service for a very long time.
  8  1404                 Perhaps you have a comment on that.
  9  1405                 MR. O'FARRELL:  I thank you for
 10       clarifying that.  I would respond in the following
 11       manner, that from what I can read into the order in
 12       council, your responsibility in carrying out its
 13       direction is to evaluate carriage options and carriage
 14       options for a type of program service, not for this
 15       service only or for this applicant only, which is why I
 16       believe that again a competitive process would yield
 17       the result of determining the interest of others to
 18       offer such a service and you would be in a position, I
 19       believe, having determined what is the appropriate
 20       carriage option for that type of service, to give
 21       notice thereof so that applicants would know what the
 22       rules of the game were.
 23  1406                 I don't know if that helps you.
 24  1407                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what you are
 25       saying is that the use of the term services in the


  1       order in council and not WTM, for example, means that
  2       the Commission need not confine itself to the applicant
  3       before it but in fact should look at any and all
  4       services that wish to do so and, as a result of that,
  5       hold an open competition if it is open?  Is that what
  6       you are saying?
  7  1408                 MR. O'FARRELL:  That is precisely
  8       what I am saying.
  9  1409                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
 10  1410                 MR. O'FARRELL:  Because of the word
 11       services, one could almost suggest that is an
 12       invitation to the Commission to issue a call so that
 13       competing applicants in the genre could come forward
 14       and maybe you would licence more than one.  Who knows?
 15  1411                 In the past, we saw the Commission in
 16       Toronto, not too long ago, when the money was on
 17       licensing, not licensing one, it licensed two.  You
 18       have the opportunity to determine what the market can
 19       bear and what is in the interests of the system and
 20       what are the appropriate decisions on applications.
 21  1412                 If that satisfies you, I will ask
 22       Sylvie to speak to the precedence.
 23  1413                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you say that
 24       would apply to existing services as well, that one
 25       could simply, without licensing new services, for


  1       instance, take services that exist and that aspire to
  2       reflect and connect Canada's multicultural communities
  3       and explore carriage options for them?
  4  1414                 MR. O'FARRELL:  No.  No, I would not. 
  5       I would suggest that it is with regard to new entrants. 
  6       That is how I understand and interpret the order in
  7       council.
  8  1415                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It doesn't say that
  9       either, but that is how you are interpreting it.
 10  1416                 MR. O'FARRELL:  If we want to get
 11       into the exact wording of the order in council, you
 12       will agree that there are a number of things that one
 13       can interpret into some of the words that are stated
 14       there.
 15  1417                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 16  1418                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  With respect to
 17       your question, and I am hoping I will be answering
 18       correctly, but I think what may be the argument here is
 19       that there is no requirement under the act, if you are
 20       going to require mandatory carriage under 9(1)(h), to
 21       have first conducted a competitive process.  I think
 22       that is clear.  I mean, obviously you did that in the
 23       case of TVA and APTN.  It was not a competitive process
 24       and you did accord that type of carriage.
 25  1419                 I guess at that point, the test at


  1       that time is whether or not that particular service,
  2       given the record and what you have before you, warrants
  3       that kind of exceptional carriage.  So that is really
  4       how you -- you have to base it on its merits.  That is
  5       how I understand it.
  6  1420                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  7       much.
  8  1421                 Commissioner Pennefather.
  9  1422                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just on
 10       that point, Madam Courtemanche, I think you are aware
 11       of the amendments tabled on the public record as of
 12       April 8.  I wondered if you had any further comment on
 13       that point.  Your written reply dealt with the original
 14       application, and the amendments that have come forward
 15       have offered some change.
 16  1423                 I wondered if you had any comment on
 17       that in terms of your point about the merit of the
 18       service and if in fact you see that those changes have
 19       affected the way we look at the service in terms of its
 20       sectional support for the objectives of the act, the
 21       points you just raised.  Based on the merits of the
 22       service, have these changes altered your opinion?
 23  1424                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  I guess what you
 24       are trying to say is whether in my particular opinion I
 25       think they have achieved that particular objective.


  1  1425                 I guess I would have to say that
  2       trying to determine whether or not a service has met
  3       that exceptional standard is a very difficult one.  I
  4       think we will be in a better position once we have seen
  5       what is going to be filed and the changes because I
  6       think that it is not only the programming changes that
  7       they have proposed but also whether the funding that
  8       they have -- you know, if the type of moneys that they
  9       are going to allocate to that programming really
 10       supports and enriches and provides you something that
 11       is quite valuable and exceptional I will be in a better
 12       position to answer that.
 13  1426                 So it will depend on how all the
 14       revisions work out for me to be able to honestly answer
 15       that question.  I still in my mind have not fully
 16       worked it out because you can add some hours but with
 17       the kind of money that you are going to be allocating
 18       to that, it will be helpful once I know all of the
 19       particulars to answer that.
 20  1427                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 21  1428                 I understand that, from a general
 22       point though, world programming -- we just had a
 23       discussion with the CCTA representatives on the
 24       interest to broad audiences of world foreign
 25       programming subtitled in English and/or French.  What


  1       is your comment on the viability of such programming?
  2  1429                 MR. O'FARRELL:  We tend to agree with
  3       the views of the Communications and Diversity Network
  4       that were filed with the Commission that state
  5       effectively that the format might be deficient in
  6       advancing the real need in multicultural communities to
  7       go beyond niche or targeted programming to programs
  8       which help all communities understand one another.
  9  1430                 From our understanding, that seems to
 10       reflect our view from what we understand of the type of
 11       service.
 12  1431                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 13       Obviously, there are differences of opinion on that
 14       whole point inclusive I am sure of those who currently
 15       have world programming in their services.
 16  1432                 Thank you very much.  Those are my
 17       questions.
 18  1433                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 19       much.
 20  1434                 MR. O'FARRELL:  With your permission,
 21       Mr. Chair, on the subject of the interpretation of the
 22       OIC, I just wanted to go back to it for a moment to
 23       make sure that my views were clearly understood.
 24  1435                 When I interpret that this applies to
 25       options for carriage for market entrants, I don't


  1       believe the government had any intention to have you
  2       conduct a review of the terms of carriage of existing
  3       multicultural stations by using the language "that
  4       aspire to reflect".  Those that are already launched up
  5       and running in their various niches are already in that
  6       business.  So I would expect that meant that was for
  7       future applicants or services to be licensed.
  8  1436                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Existing applicants
  9       don't have aspirations.
 10  1437                 MR. O'FARRELL:  Existing licensees do
 11       it very well.
 12       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
 13  1438                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 14  1439                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 15  1440                 The agenda will be shuffled a little
 16       bit because we have to accommodate some intervenors'
 17       schedules.  Next we will hear Maria Minna.
 18  1441                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 19       Mr. Secretary.  You mean because you have been gracious
 20       enough to accommodate them.
 22  1442                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  Thank you,
 23       Mr. Chairman.  I really appreciate your extending this
 24       case.


  1       firstly a little bit about my understanding of
  2       multiculturalism because I think that is an important
  3       premise to what is in front of you today in terms of
  4       understanding the importance of the application that is
  5       in front of us.
  6  1444                 I have spent a good many years of my
  7       life, before becoming a member of parliament, in the
  8       field of working with multiculturalism issues and
  9       working with the integration of immigrants into the
 10       larger Canadian society.  To me multiculturalism has
 11       always been something that indicates inclusivity.  It
 12       is the equalizer, if you like, a vision and a mechanism
 13       to help Canadian society take diversity, which we have
 14       in our country, and to turn it into a strength rather
 15       than a weakness, as is the case in societies outside of
 16       Canada.  We are very proud to say that diversity is a
 17       strength for us.
 18  1445                 Multiculturalism includes all
 19       Canadians, not just some.  It includes the English, the
 20       French, the Italian Canadians, everyone.  It is an
 21       umbrella.  It is not for "the ethnics" but everyone
 22       else.  It is what Canada is, which is a multicultural,
 23       multiracial society.
 24  1446                 I read Ms Andrée Wylie's speech of
 25       February 15 stating that the CRTC had revised the


  1       definition of an ethnic program.  In that vision it
  2       stated the definition of an ethnic program:
  3                              "Given the differing needs of
  4                              neogenerations of Canadians and
  5                              the different patterns of
  6                              immigration to Canada, now an
  7                              ethnic program is one that is
  8                              specifically directed to a
  9                              culturally or racially distinct
 10                              group other than a group that is
 11                              aboriginal Canadian or from
 12                              France or the British Isles,
 13                              whether or not it is in a
 14                              language other than French,
 15                              English or an aboriginal
 16                              language."  (As read)
 17  1447                 It goes on to say:
 18                              "We believe that new policy now
 19                              better reflects the great
 20                              importance of official
 21                              language-ethnic broadcasting as
 22                              a bridge between the non-ethnic
 23                              and ethnic members of Canadian
 24                              society and between different
 25                              generations of Canadians." 


  1                              (As read)
  2  1448                 I find, to be honest with you, this
  3       type of definition quite offensive.  It perpetuates in
  4       my mind something that I have fought for a very long
  5       time, and that is the definition of ethnics of the us
  6       and them status relegating to some degree the peoples
  7       who do not come from the British Isles and France as
  8       second-class citizens in a sense because they will be
  9       ethnics forever.  It is us and them that I have always
 10       dealt with throughout the last 20 years.  Those are the
 11       ethnics and these others are the mainstream, or these
 12       others are the establishment, as we used to refer to
 13       them when I was involved.  It perpetuates forever a
 14       second-class thinking.  It does not allow for
 15       mainstream to be defined as it should be.
 16  1449                 Mainstream is not CTV or CBC or
 17       others by themselves, because they are also ethnic
 18       broadcasting in a sense because they are broadcasting
 19       in -- they are only depicting, to a greater extent,
 20       thus far, one ethnocultural dimension of Canada. 
 21       Mainstream should be determined as broadcasting that
 22       depicts all of the cultures of Canada, not just one
 23       main one.
 24  1450                 Quite frankly, I think that this is
 25       something that should be dropped because


  1       multiculturalism, as I define it, must be understood,
  2       as I said in my letter to you previously, as the
  3       umbrella of means that we have developed to create this
  4       multicultural nation.  Having a policy of the CRTC, a
  5       federal institution, that constitutes, continues to
  6       have as its foundation, the hierarchial status of
  7       Canadians based on ethnicity makes a mockery of the
  8       legislative and policy directions established by
  9       federal and provincial governments over the past three
 10       decades.  I certainly believe that.
 11  1451                 As well, to continue in the speech
 12       again from Ms Wylie, it was saying that within
 13       mainstream media the core objectives of the policy
 14       remain the same; in other words, the aspect of the --
 15       in the speech she goes on to say that the core
 16       objectives are:  develop broadcasting services that
 17       reflect Canada's cultural and linguistic plurality
 18       which is essential to the Canadian social structure;
 19       ensure access to ethnic programming for as many
 20       Canadians as possible given resources, limitations;
 21       and, foster opportunities for greater understanding
 22       among people of different cultural backgrounds.
 23  1452                 Further, the CRTC has now taken the
 24       steps to ensure that TVA and Global develop plans
 25       outlining the concrete actions they would take to


  1       better reflect the presence of cultural and racial
  2       minorities and the aboriginal people in the community
  3       that they serve.
  4  1453                 This is a step in the right direction
  5       because being inclusive is fundamental to the cohesion
  6       of our country.  However, as I have said before, with
  7       respect to -- there are two things.  Firstly, it is not
  8       necessarily mainstream in the sense that we are
  9       referring to those stations or broadcasters as
 10       mainstream that do not yet, in my view, reflect the
 11       whole of Canada.  In addition to that, however, with
 12       respect to ethnic broadcasting, we need more than one
 13       community talking to its own members, such as Italian
 14       Canadians talking to Italian Canadians.
 15  1454                 I come from that background.  I have
 16       spent many years talking in Italian to the community
 17       about their rights, about social issues, and those are
 18       very fundamentally needed, there is no question.  But
 19       we cannot have a dialogue between the Italian to the
 20       Italian, Portuguese to Portuguese and so on.  We need
 21       to also be talking to each other across cultures.  This
 22       is very important in order to facilitate an
 23       understanding and respect for each other regardless of
 24       our ethnic origins, otherwise we cannot understand and
 25       never learn about each other's differences if we don't


  1       talk across cultures and only in one way.
  2  1455                 I believe that the truly integrated
  3       and inclusive society is evidenced by the participation
  4       of all its citizens in the social, economic and
  5       political fabric of the country.  Therefore, it seems
  6       to me that if we are going to have a station and a
  7       broadcaster that can provide information and
  8       understanding to break down barriers of one another
  9       from across cultures, not just in one dimension but in
 10       multidimensions, I think it is another aspect of what I
 11       would call a mainstream broadcasting, an integrative
 12       part of the multicultural policy of this country and
 13       that it is critical that we break down the kind of
 14       barriers that, to some degree, we have created -- are
 15       not official in many ways in our country.
 16  1456                 I would recommend therefore that,
 17       firstly, we drop ethnic versus non-ethnic from your
 18       thinking, if we could, and from your publications, if
 19       there are any, in addition to the speech that I saw,
 20       because I think it establishes the us versus them
 21       situation, it perpetuates it, and that we live up to
 22       the spirit and principle of the Multiculturalism Act,
 23       as I understand it.  I think some of us include
 24       imaginative programming that fosters learning of one
 25       another, breaks down myths and misunderstandings among


  1       Canadians, diverse communities and encourages
  2       inclusivity.  This is important to break down.
  3  1457                 So you have in front of you, as I
  4       have said to you before, an application from World
  5       Télémonde, whose focus is on the multicultural process
  6       which addresses the cultural diversity of Canada and
  7       provides a unique window on the world.  It is national
  8       in reach, is multicultural, but accessible to all in
  9       both official languages.  How can it not be understood
 10       as having the potential to make a significant
 11       contribution to the broadcasting system and to the
 12       peoples of Canada?
 13  1458                 WTM recognizes that we have a
 14       multicultural country here, a country that has been
 15       described as having within it the whole of the world. 
 16       Yes, within Canada there are culturally diverse
 17       communities.  You could be hardpressed to find one that
 18       isn't.  There are ethnic groups, English, French,
 19       Greek, Arab, Italian, German, Chinese, and I could go
 20       on.
 21  1459                 What makes Canada multicultural is
 22       the means we have developed to live and thrive
 23       together.  After having spent two and a half years in
 24       different parts of the world where ethnic strife is
 25       very strong, it is important that this country continue


  1       to be the model that it is and encouraged to become an
  2       even stronger model.  The only way to do that is to
  3       ensure that within our own borders the multicultural
  4       principle and goals that we have set for ourselves are
  5       strengthened to every possibly imagined broadcasting
  6       that we can think of, and this is one of them, where
  7       people can see cross-cultures in English and French
  8       subtitles.
  9  1460                 Thank you.
 10  1461                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 11       much, Ms Minna.  I enjoyed your presentation.  It is
 12       interesting that the policy that the ethnic program
 13       definition came out of is in fact called "Broadcasting
 14       Policy Reflecting Canada's Linguistic and Cultural
 15       Diversity".  I guess when it came time --
 16  1462                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  The title sounds
 17       fine, but when you break it down to non-ethnic versus
 18       ethnic and into all of the refined thinking, what it
 19       shows to me, with respect, is a thinking that I find
 20       someone dangerous in this country.
 21  1463                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I take your point. 
 22       So it would be interesting if you could help us come
 23       out with a word that would replace that to define a
 24       program that is specifically directed to a culturally
 25       or racially distinct group.  As you described yourself


  1       wanting to address the Italian community in Italian,
  2       for example, on rights or whatever other subject, it
  3       was I think in an effort to find a shorthand way of
  4       describing that, an adjective that would differentiate
  5       that, that was come up with.  If it offends
  6       sensibilities, I am sure that is not the Commission's
  7       intention.
  8  1464                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  My view is more
  9       than offending my sensibilities.  I have had those
 10       happen to me before.  It is more to make sure that it
 11       is not what is believed.  I would be much happier to
 12       know that that is not what you really think in terms of
 13       that is not the thinking behind the words, in other
 14       words.
 15  1465                 So I could say to you we could use --
 16       multiculturalism is a broad term, but we are looking at
 17       different linguistic and cultural broadcasting because
 18       when you are talking about the Haitians it is French
 19       but it is a different -- you are talking about culture
 20       here, you are not talking about language so much.  If
 21       you are talking about some other carriers where English
 22       is the mother tongue, again you are talking about
 23       culture not language so much so you can refer to it in
 24       other ways.
 25  1466                 But it seems to me that the word


  1       "ethnic" to me describes the ethnocultural heritage of
  2       all of us and it is not --
  3  1467                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can assure you
  4       certainly on Madam Wylie's part, as well as my own and
  5       anybody at the Commission that the bad side of that
  6       thought is not present.  If you want to help us devise
  7       a word that --
  8  1468                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  Be happy to.
  9  1469                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- removes any of
 10       that aftertaste, we would certainly be open to it.  It
 11       is an effort to actually be as constructive and helpful
 12       as possible in allowing that kind of programming that
 13       you and I have just discussed to be on the
 14       broadcasting --
 15  1470                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  Mainstream.  The
 16       mainstream, as I call it.
 17  1471                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, is it really
 18       mainstream, though, when you are speaking in Italian to
 19       the Italian community?
 20  1472                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  No.  But there are
 21       two aspects here.  There are two or three areas.  One
 22       is the need for people to communicate both their
 23       heritage and information to be able to -- which also
 24       facilitates integration.  It allows retention of
 25       culture and a great many things.  There is a lot in


  1       there which deals with language and culture, the ones
  2       that we are not talking about.
  3  1473                 The other is when we talk about
  4       mainstream, CBC, CTV or any of the other stations, I
  5       don't consider them mainstream yet because they don't
  6       reflect the whole of Canada.  They don't reflect the
  7       culture and the people of Canada yet in their
  8       broadcasting quite frankly and until such time as they
  9       do that -- the mainstreams to me, which is the
 10       multicultural Canada, includes all of us, this is what
 11       I am saying, that until such time as we have a truly
 12       mainstream broadcasting in this country which we don't
 13       have.
 14  1474                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 15  1475                 Commissioner McKendry.
 16  1476                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you for
 17       your comments today, Ms Minna.  I think they are
 18       helpful to us.  As the Chair has indicated, we are
 19       always anxious to come up with the kinds of language
 20       that will be appropriate to the issues as you have
 21       described them.
 22  1477                 I just have one question with respect
 23       to the applicant that is in front of us in this
 24       hearing.
 25  1478                 We have already granted the applicant


  1       a licence, but we have been asked to reconsider the
  2       kind of carriage that the applicant would get on cable
  3       television and direct-to-home television I suppose for
  4       that matter.  The issue really in front of us is
  5       whether or not the applicant should be granted carriage
  6       on basic cable television so that all cable subscribers
  7       would have to pay for the service regardless of their
  8       interest in the service.  Because basic cablevision
  9       service is full up or near full up, it might cause some
 10       disruption in terms of reallocating channels and so on.
 11  1479                 Is it your view that the kind of
 12       carriage that is being sought by Mr. Iannuzzi is the
 13       right kind of carriage for this kind of service?
 14  1480                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  It seems for me
 15       that it is, for the reasons that I was talking about
 16       earlier.  Having been involved in community work for
 17       about 20 years, as I said before, it is important for
 18       me to see that in this -- I live in Toronto.  It is a
 19       fairly multicultural city, all of Canada is, but there
 20       is probably just about every corner of the world
 21       reflected in that city.  For all of those different
 22       pieces of that city to talk to each other, it is very
 23       viable to have a broadcast that provides the news or
 24       some broadcast in Russian or in what have you with
 25       subtitles so everyone else can read it.  It crosses


  1       cultural boundaries and racial boundaries so that we
  2       can each understand one another.
  3  1481                 Just think of listening to the news
  4       or what has happened in Chechnya, for instance, first
  5       thing, or a program directly from Russia in Russian. 
  6       The people who understand it will understand it and
  7       those of us will read it in subtitles but you will hear
  8       it directly as opposed to watching it -- you know,
  9       waiting later to watch it broadcast through our own
 10       channel hoops then reinterpret what is going on, which
 11       is fine, we will watch that too, but that gives you a
 12       balance.  Watching a movie or whatever other program
 13       you might like from India in Hindi or Punjabi for that
 14       matter or whatever other language.
 15  1482                 For the first time I don't
 16       understand -- I flip the channels all the time.  I
 17       would love to understand what is going on in some of
 18       the movies that I see on TV that are going on in Hindi
 19       and Punjabi.  I don't.  But it would be great because
 20       it would help me to understand a lot about the culture
 21       and about the background, the history of the people in
 22       those areas when there are documentaries or what have
 23       you.
 24  1483                 This is a way to reach out across
 25       cultural lines and linguistic lines.  To me, I think it


  1       is a very valuable addition to our quest to break down
  2       barriers to integrate and build a cohesive society in
  3       our country so that we not only are proud of who we
  4       are, where our heritage is and where we come from, as I
  5       am of my Italian heritage, but at the same time can
  6       also understand and appreciate one another across
  7       cultural and linguistic lines which in this country I
  8       think is very fundamental given the number of
  9       immigrants that come in our country every year and the
 10       number of nationalities that I represent in our country
 11       already.
 12  1484                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thanks very
 13       much.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.
 14  1485                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 15       much, Ms Minna.
 16  1486                 HON. MARIA MINNA:  Thank you.  Thank
 17       you for letting me go at this time.  I need to catch my
 18       flight.
 19  1487                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 20  1488                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 21       The next appearing intervention will be presented by
 22       the Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia,
 23       Mrs. Barbara Campbell.
 25  1489                 MS CAMPBELL:  Thank you,


  1       Mr. Chairman, for giving me the opportunity before I
  2       catch my flight at four o'clock.  I came all the way
  3       from Halifax to tell you how anxious we are to have a
  4       multicultural television program in our region.
  5  1490                 I represent the Multicultural
  6       Association of Nova Scotia.  All of our programs are
  7       directed at mainstream Canadians as well as our
  8       membership, which is multicultural.  This television
  9       program would actually complement all of our
 10       programming that we do.  We can actually make reference
 11       to the variety of cultures in our region which is at a
 12       very low rate at the moment due to very low immigration
 13       levels.
 14  1491                 This is another reason why we think
 15       multicultural programming in Atlantic Canada would not
 16       only attract new immigrants to our region but also
 17       would keep them there because they can see themselves
 18       on the screen, they will have some reference point as
 19       to where they might hear their language, how they might
 20       get the news from home, how they might view movies in
 21       their own language because they may not understand
 22       French or English and speak it well, so that they feel
 23       welcome, they feel secure, they feel wanted and
 24       welcome.
 25  1492                 Multicultural programming in Nova


  1       Scotia is not available.  Previous speakers have told
  2       you that there is really no gap, that there is
  3       ethnocultural programming, there is multicultural
  4       programming.  We haven't seen any.  Maybe they are in
  5       Toronto but they are certainly not in Halifax and
  6       certainly not in the rest of the Atlantic provinces.
  7  1493                 I want to draw your attention to the
  8       fallout of 9/11 and the efforts that we all have to
  9       make to bridge cultures, to educate people about other
 10       religions and other cultural behaviours and traditions. 
 11       How are we going to do this unless we have the major
 12       television stations project the diversity and the
 13       multicultural reality of this country and to provide
 14       connecting mechanisms so that people can actually learn
 15       what Muslims are all about and why -- and Arabs that
 16       have been persecuted because of the 9/11?  We need to
 17       educate ourselves and television has been watched
 18       constantly and that is the best medium and it is the
 19       only medium that can really reach all of our Canadians.
 20  1494                 I also want to point out that our
 21       young people need to see themselves -- if they are of,
 22       say, a visible minority, for instance -- on the screen. 
 23       We need to have our young people understand the global
 24       reality within our own region, within our own
 25       provinces, within our own country.  We need to see them


  1       as being citizens of the world.  Such a program will
  2       project to them that there is something beyond Canada,
  3       beyond Nova Scotia and that the people they meet in the
  4       school system or on the street are to be respected and
  5       understood because of their cultural difference.  We
  6       can appreciate their difference much better if we learn
  7       something from them.
  8  1495                 I have something written down but I
  9       don't really want to start reading.  I want to relate
 10       to you in a very human and very realistic way.  I am
 11       not familiar with the technicalities of digital 1 and
 12       digital 2.  This is your business.  My business is
 13       people and people need to be serviced as Canadians
 14       should.  We have a multicultural country, we have a
 15       multicultural policy and so we need to have a
 16       multicultural channel.  I support WTM wholeheartedly
 17       and I wish them all the best.
 18  1496                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 19       much, Ms Campbell.
 20  1497                 Could you tell us a little bit about
 21       the Multicultural Association of Nova Scotia?  Your
 22       intervention didn't go into detail.
 23  1498                 MS CAMPBELL:  No, no.  I am not much
 24       of a detail person.  I am a big picture person.  But
 25       let me tell you, we have been in existence for 27 years


  1       and I have been this long with them.  Mr. Weiner, who
  2       is in the audience today, he well remembers us.
  3  1499                 Our program is basically training
  4       mainstream about the ethnicity or the diversity and
  5       multicultural reality of Canada.  In return, we train
  6       our minority people to actually be able to access the
  7       services that Canada provides, whether it is health
  8       care, education, policing and so forth.
  9  1500                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many members do
 10       you have?
 11  1501                 MS CAMPBELL:  We have a board that is
 12       made up of approximately 14 umbrella organizations.  We
 13       have a regional multicultural council sitting there. 
 14       We have the Nova Scotia teachers union who has a
 15       multicultural policy.  They have input into our
 16       programming as well.  The Human Rights Commission is
 17       there, the Bicultural Centre, the health council, the
 18       education council, these are umbrella organizations for
 19       the province that help us develop programming for
 20       multiculturalism.
 21  1502                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  How are you funded?
 22  1503                 MS CAMPBELL:  We have core funding
 23       from our province, we are very privileged to have that,
 24       only because the multicultural association is a member
 25       of the Cultural Federations of Nova Scotia.  The


  1       program funding comes from the federal government.
  2  1504                 You know, there is a paper out.  It
  3       is being put out by Minister Copps.  It is a reflection
  4       on multiculturalism because this year we are
  5       celebrating the 30th anniversary of multiculturalism. 
  6       Do read it.  It is quite interesting.  It is short.  It
  7       will give you a very good picture.
  8  1505                 Let me tell you that ethnicity is a
  9       scientific term for a group of people that have common
 10       values, so every one of us is ethnic, including the
 11       aboriginal people, because they too are in a group that
 12       have common values, understanding and religion, and
 13       communication and language.  They are also ethnic.  It
 14       is scientifically proven.  So let's not play with the
 15       terms.  Ethnic is inherent to all of us.
 16  1506                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 17  1507                 Commissioner McKendry.
 18  1508                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I was
 19       interested in your comment that there was I think you
 20       said no multicultural programming available in Halifax
 21       and in Atlantic Canada.  I just wanted to confirm that
 22       I had heard that correctly.  There is nothing on your
 23       television set when you go through the dial or across
 24       the remote control?
 25  1509                 MS CAMPBELL:  No.  I'm sorry.  I


  1       might run into Vision TV and there is something about
  2       the Indo-Canadian programming.  On cable they might
  3       show the results of our multicultural festival.  They
  4       come and tape and they show it on TV, but there is no
  5       consistency there.  The East Indian program is an
  6       ethnocultural program.  It is directed at one ethnic
  7       group.  A multicultural program incorporates all of our
  8       groups.  It is directed at all Canadians and
  9       multiculturalism is for all Canadians.  It is also for
 10       the aboriginals, believe it or not.
 11  1510                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you
 12       very much.
 13  1511                 MS CAMPBELL:  You are welcome.
 14  1512                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 15       Mrs. Campbell, for taking the trouble.  You have
 16       travelled so far and waited so long to speak.  We
 17       welcome your contribution.
 18  1513                 MS CAMPBELL:  Thank you.  Thank you.
 19  1514                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 20  1515                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 21  1516                 The next appearing intervention will
 22       be presented by Mr. Paul Winn.
 24  1517                 MR. WINN:  Thank you, Commissioners,
 25       for allowing me the opportunity to address you.


  1  1518                 My name is Paul Winn.  I am from the
  2       lower mainland of British Columbia so I am the other
  3       end of the country.  You just heard from the east.  Now
  4       it is from the west side.
  5  1519                 I am a supporter of WTM's
  6       application.  As you may know by my correspondence to
  7       you, I am a member of the board of WTM.  I am also the
  8       President of the Black Historical and Cultural Society
  9       of British Columbia and the President of the B.C.
 10       Festival of the Arts Society of British Columbia which
 11       is, for information, the largest multidiscipline arts
 12       festival in the country.  It allows me an opportunity
 13       to touch base with not only a lot of cultural groups
 14       but a lot of artistic groups as well at the same time.
 15  1520                 I wanted to emphasize the importance,
 16       I think, of WTM being on an analog system as opposed to
 17       digital system simply because it can reach a larger
 18       number of people instantly.  This is probably -- I am
 19       taking a guess now -- maybe my 10th time appearing
 20       before a CRTC Commission since 1977, encouraging the
 21       CRTC to force people with licences to reflect who I am
 22       in this country on Canadian television.
 23  1521                 By way of background I have a little
 24       more background.  I guess I would describe myself as a
 25       multigenerational, multicultural Canadian.  My family


  1       has only been in Ontario since about 1840 so I think I
  2       have some roots here and yet I never see myself truly
  3       reflected on Canadian television from a cultural aspect
  4       of me and my peoples.  So I think that WTM, what they
  5       are proposing is to finally allow me to be included in
  6       mainstream television.
  7  1522                 Mainstream television tends to
  8       characterize the racial minorities in this society when
  9       there is conflict and confrontation or, on the other
 10       side, if it is something extremely unique where
 11       somebody has achieved something so high above the
 12       standard that they think it is important that they
 13       reflect that.  Otherwise, you never see yourself on
 14       television and you never see yourself in the
 15       programmings.
 16  1523                 You will see programmings that have
 17       touched on issues of Scottish families and their
 18       hardships and their toils of coming to this country and
 19       building it, but you never see them about the black
 20       community, you never see them about the Chinese
 21       community except for maybe building a railroad, and
 22       that was the only thing that they contributed to this
 23       country.  I think it is these kinds of things that WTM
 24       is going to change and I think, as a result, will
 25       increase the viewing audience of Canadian television as


  1       well because there are things that happen in this
  2       country that people just don't seem to know about or
  3       understand.
  4  1524                 I was here yesterday as well
  5       listening and there was comments about unique and
  6       exceptional.  The fact that what WTM is trying to do in
  7       bringing the rest of Canada together by reflecting who
  8       we are and what we do in this country, I think that is
  9       unique because mainstream television as it exists today
 10       certainly doesn't do that.  Because that is unique, I
 11       think that makes them also exceptional because they are
 12       going to be the first ones to do that, but to do it in
 13       a manner which is going to allow us to reach the
 14       maximum population in this country I believe it has to
 15       be on an analog system.  It can't be done digitally
 16       because if it takes as long to try and get, you know,
 17       the cultural society reflected on mainstream television
 18       as it has for the last 25 years of me trying to do that
 19       in other ways, then it will be 2020 before we actually
 20       reflect the new mainstream of Canadians on mainstream
 21       television through digital and I think that would be a
 22       big mistake.
 23  1525                 MR. WINN:  I think that when we are
 24       looking at racial minorities in this country, and if
 25       you look at your television and you look at the people


  1       who comprise the decision makers in those
  2       organizations, they don't look like me.  I know.  I
  3       have been in their boardrooms and I have tried to talk,
  4       to convince them, and they don't listen too well.
  5  1526                 They think they know best and they
  6       seem to cater to a certain denominator that looks more
  7       than themselves that it does like myself or other
  8       people who are of colour.
  9  1527                 I think that we have to be very, very
 10       certain about this, and one of the reason I associated
 11       with WTM is because their board is certainly reflective
 12       of that cross-cultural entity in this country.  There
 13       is a very, very vast group of us who come from
 14       different religious and racial backgrounds that sit on
 15       that board and the things in our experiences -- you
 16       heard Kerry Johnston who is one of the architects of
 17       multicultural policies in this country, when he was in
 18       the public service.
 19  1528                 Again, myself I was responsible for
 20       setting up the Employment Equity Program for Visible
 21       Minorities in the federal government.  So we know about
 22       employment equity, we know about multiculturalism, we
 23       know about those kinds of things that are of interest
 24       to those what I will call marginalized Canadians who
 25       don't find themselves on television these days and


  1       reflected except, as I mentioned, if there is
  2       confrontation or something that is so highly
  3       exceptional in their achievement, they get reported on
  4       the television.
  5  1529                 I think that from that perspective
  6       WTM is unique and I think it is exceptional, and while
  7       I know it's not the debate about the standard that was
  8       being set and it shouldn't be measured in that way, but
  9       I think if we look at the words and simplify them, yes,
 10       something that has not been done before, something that
 11       is being proposed, something that is going to change
 12       how Canadians look at television, where they are going
 13       get their information from.
 14  1530                 I like to see stories and things
 15       about other countries and other cultures and how other
 16       people view us as Canadians.  If I have to do it
 17       through subtitles, I think that's great, but if I have
 18       to look at a show in a language that I can't
 19       understand, I flip the channel, quite frankly, because
 20       I am not getting much out of it.
 21  1531                 Sometimes I will stick around if
 22       there is just music there because the music might
 23       capture me, but if I can't understand the language they
 24       are speaking I don't stick around very long.
 25  1532                 I think that I would urge you as the


  1       Commissioners to grant the request that WTM has put
  2       before you to ensure that they get a spot on an analog
  3       listing as opposed to the digital which may take years
  4       to develop to the point where we get enough of the
  5       Canadian population having access to them.
  6  1533                 Those are my comments.
  7  1534                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  8       much, Mr. Winn, for coming this way to make your
  9       presentation.
 10  1535                 You are from Vancouver and on the
 11       Vancouver dial -- I will ask a similar question to the
 12       one Mr. McKendry asked of Mrs. Campbell from Halifax --
 13       what services now do you find on the dial that address
 14       multicultural programming?
 15  1536                 MR. WINN:  There are some on the
 16       cable, the cable system.  Any individual groups can go
 17       the local cable station and get a specific spot on it,
 18       but again it's directed at their particular community. 
 19       It's not a broad enough spectrum and you do get shows
 20       in different languages.  The Indo-Canadian community
 21       certainly has shows in there.  The Chinese community
 22       has shows in Chinese, and then every once in a while
 23       you will see a show in Polish, but because they are in
 24       Polish, I don't know anything else in Polish.  I can
 25       tell you hello and that's the extent of it.


  1  1537                 But I would like to know, some of the
  2       plays look very interesting.  They look very comical
  3       some of them in these different languages, but because
  4       I can't understand the language, I flip the channel. 
  5       But we do get some.
  6  1538                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right and this
  7       service will, of course, have a lot of that kind of
  8       programming as well from other countries with subtitles
  9       that you would see.
 10  1539                 MR. WINN:  Well, that's my point. 
 11       Then I would be more likely to sit and watch it.
 12  1540                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.
 13  1541                 MR. WINN:  I mean, I don't know,
 14       there is an Italian film I saw recently that was
 15       subtitled about a concentration camp.  I found it very
 16       entertaining.  I could watch it, I could understand
 17       what was being said even though the principal language
 18       was Italian.
 19  1542                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  An entertaining
 20       program about a concentration camp?
 21       --- Laughter / Rires
 22  1543                 MR. WINN:  Well, it was.  It was very
 23       touching, a very human story and I liked it.  But there
 24       are others.  I never would have watched some other
 25       films that I have seen in the movie theatre if they


  1       hadn't had subtitles.
  2  1544                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  You are
  3       familiar with the MultiVan licensing.
  4  1545                 MR. WINN:  Yes.
  5  1546                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  According to the
  6       newspapers, this is one that we are not going to get
  7       sent back to us to reconsider.
  8  1547                 MR. WINN:  Well, there is a lot of
  9       controversy about it because of the way it was done and
 10       who is sort of on one side of the equation or the
 11       other.
 12  1548                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But do you
 13       think that will plug a gap, in the Vancouver area at
 14       least, in the kind of programming that you are speaking
 15       of?
 16  1549                 MR. WINN:  Unfortunately it will to a
 17       small point because what I found with these stations is
 18       if the community has a lot of wealth and can get the
 19       sponsors to put shows about their community on the air
 20       they will be reflected, but if you are a community who
 21       doesn't have a lot of money, then you won't be seen on
 22       the television.  That's why most of them end up going
 23       to the local cable station and getting an hour once in
 24       a while.  That has been part of the problem.
 25  1550                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


  1       kindly.
  2  1551                 MR. WINN:  You are welcome.
  3  1552                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now break
  4       for 15 minutes at resume at 4:15.
  5       --- Upon recessing at 1600 / Suspension à 1600
  6       --- Upon resuming at 1618 / Reprise à 1618
  7  1553                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary,
  8       would you call the next item, please?
  9  1554                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 10  1555                 The next three intervenors will be
 11       appearing as a panel and we will hear from Mr. Gerry
 12       Weiner, Mr. John Mancinelli, and Mr. Clarence S. Bayne.
 14  1556                 MR. GERRY WEINER:  Mr. Chair,
 15       Commissioner, I am Weiner, in case you want to blame
 16       Clarence Bayne for anything I am doing.
 17  1557                 I am delighted to be back before the
 18       Commission as I was before as a supporter and friend
 19       and there are, of course, two main reasons that draw me
 20       to spend a Friday with you in Ottawa and they are not
 21       because I am an elected person any more, having left
 22       elected office on January the 1st.
 23  1558                 I am in my private period now, so it
 24       has given me a chance for reflection and it was
 25       interesting to hear that we are about to celebrate the


  1       30th anniversary of multiculturalism.  I think I spent
  2       much of the last 30 years being a vigorous defender of
  3       minority rights.  My background demands no less.  My
  4       citizenship means that to me.
  5  1559                 There was an era when I worked very
  6       vigorously to bring forward a concept of
  7       multiculturalism and a hope that all of the
  8       institutions of our society would reflect that view
  9       that indeed my country would be building harmony
 10       without homogeneity and unity without uniformity and
 11       that somehow we would be enriched by that diversity.
 12  1560                 So my career as a member of five
 13       different governments and a constant volunteer demands
 14       me to come back and in any way help the Commission in
 15       its further understanding that there is a simple
 16       requirement that the medium called television, which is
 17       a powerful medium, still our most effective educational
 18       tool, that it must reflect who we have become, the
 19       changing face of this country.
 20  1561                 Now, my recent travel around the
 21       world have been extensive.  I do travel in various
 22       parts of the world.  I had occasion of being in Europe
 23       last week, in Paris and Amsterdam, two very hot spots
 24       at the moment, not weatherwise, but you can feel the
 25       discomfort in terms of the population, discomfort with


  1       who they have become.
  2  1562                 I don't want that to happen to us. 
  3       We are a model of the world.  We are a model of what
  4       can be when you learn to live with each other, when you
  5       have this broader understanding of each other, when
  6       understanding is built on this respect, when there is
  7       insight into what we are.
  8  1563                 I don't want my views of the world
  9       filtered.  I want them direct.  Now, it's clear that
 10       wherever I am in the world and I open up my television,
 11       the CNN and BBC broadcasting seem to be the sameness
 12       all over.
 13  1564                 I want Canada to be something
 14       different and here we have a medium that has this
 15       opportunity.
 16  1565                 This, as I said, is my third
 17       appearance before the Commission in support of WTM and
 18       in a way I am shocked that this innovative and
 19       contemporary TV service, which has received your
 20       approval, still somehow is not being given the full
 21       mainstream approval it requires.  So as the Minister
 22       Responsible for the introduction of the
 23       Multiculturalism Canada Act a number of years ago, I
 24       react with incredibility to one of the few rationales
 25       provided in the majority decision delivered last


  1       December 14th.  I address directly causes 1 to 8 under
  2       the heading:  The Commission's Approach to Canadian
  3       Cultural Diversity, which incidently constitutes a
  4       large part of the rationale for the majority's denial.
  5  1566                 In this section the decision outlines
  6       the initiatives it has taken to give substance to
  7       Section 3(1)(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting Act, with its
  8       expression of its multicultural objectives for the
  9       Canadian broadcasting system.
 10  1567                 I consider the majority opinions
 11       rationalization to at best have been based on failure
 12       to understand the multiculturalism, the foundation of
 13       WTM.  The concrete efforts described in the majority
 14       opinion denying WTM were in every instance ethnic in
 15       nature, and I heard that discussion about ethics before
 16       and until Ms Campbell from Nova Scotia made me feel
 17       comfortable that we are all ethnics, I too was upset by
 18       the use of the word "ethnic".
 19  1568                 So as I stated earlier, I was
 20       fortunate to be the Minister who introduced the
 21       Multiculturalism Canada Act.  The Act clearly describes
 22       the policy objectives which won unanimous support in
 23       the House of Commons and the Senate within the
 24       "politique canadienne de multiculturalisme".
 25  1569                 La politique canadienne en matière


  1       consiste à reconnaître le fait que le multiculturalisme
  2       reflète la diversité culturelle raciale de la société
  3       canadienne et ce traduit par la liberté pour tous ses
  4       membres de maintenir, de valoriser et de partager le
  5       patrimoine culturel ainsi qu'à sensibiliser la
  6       population à ce fait.
  7  1570                 The various other causes -- and I
  8       want to give opportunity to my two colleagues to make
  9       representations, but it's clear that in terms of the
 10       Multiculturalism Canada Act, and other Acts of
 11       Parliament, that it must reflect this in terms of how
 12       this institution, as well as every other institution of
 13       our society, must reflect the changing diversity of
 14       Canada and what it is today to be a Canadian citizen.
 15  1571                 So I would like to give opportunity
 16       to my two colleagues to say a few a words.
 17  1572                 I want to thank you all very, very
 18       much for allowing me again, as a vigourous supporter
 19       and friend and volunteer, to hopefully help you
 20       understand that we do want this as a full mainstream
 21       service.  We are entitled to it.  It will give us a
 22       broader understanding of the world.  It will help us
 23       understand the people that have come up to make this
 24       mosaic called Canada.
 25  1573                 I think today, when there is so much


  1       difficulty in too many parts of the world, and far too
  2       often the only focus that we get on the screen is that
  3       15 second bite of disaster, but it tells me nothing
  4       about the life that has been lived, the fact that
  5       people do have a quality of life around and about when
  6       that TV camera rolls and I want to know more about it.
  7  1574                 Dr. Bayne?
  8  1575                 DR. BAYNE:  Thank you.
  9  1576                 My name is Clarence Bayne.  I'm from
 10       Montreal.  I'm a professor at the University of
 11       Concordia in the John Molson School of Business.
 12  1577                 Ever since I decided in 1960 to stay
 13       in Canada and live and work in Canada, I immediately
 14       had to address a psychological problem.  I could no
 15       longer continue to think that I was just going back
 16       home and I was just on a temporary sojourn here as a
 17       young man having fun and getting educated at the same
 18       time.  I had to think immediately as to what my life
 19       was going to be and how everyone around me, and how the
 20       government decisions, policies and the attitudes of the
 21       police.  At that time it was nearly a joke to me
 22       because, of course, I wasn't going to stay.
 23  1578                 These things immediately I had to
 24       address.  I had to address the fact that, of course, I
 25       came to this country knowing who I was.  I was a Black


  1       man with a Caribbean culture.  I was rooted largely in
  2       African traditions and values but, of course, modified
  3       by the actions and activities of the people within a
  4       new environment.
  5  1579                 And so I had no problem in with
  6       myself in that respect, but I had to immediately
  7       address the problem of my not seeing myself reflected
  8       in the society that I was deciding to live in.
  9  1580                 So I made a decision clearly that if
 10       I was going to continue to live in Canada that it would
 11       be no question that I would exert my energy to changing
 12       this country so to reflect me.
 13  1581                 I didn't think that I could expect
 14       other peoples to do that for me.  I think I had to do
 15       it for myself.  So I basically assigned, in a sort of a
 16       way, my own philosophy or model, if you would put it
 17       this way, that every cultural group has a
 18       responsibility for contributing those things of value
 19       which they bring with them to this country.
 20  1582                 And so for me Canada is not a culture
 21       which is a fixed culture.  It is an emerging culture,
 22       and all cultures should be emerging and dynamic to
 23       incorporate as many new things and new persons and new
 24       experiences as possible.
 25  1583                 I have worked for 30 years through


  1       the arts and through many communities.  I am on too
  2       many community boards and in too many programs to name
  3       them here, all aimed at one specific thing:  To
  4       creating a Canada with which I can identify.
  5  1584                 Now, I do not deny or negate the
  6       importance of a cultural group because I belong to a
  7       cultural group.  I belong to a cultural group which has
  8       also certain racial characteristics and traits, but I
  9       think that is important because if Canada is going to
 10       be continuously renewed, it must come out of the
 11       experience of those root groups.
 12  1585                 But there needs to be another
 13       mechanism somewhere, a process which transforms these
 14       things into that which is Canada, which is that which
 15       we can all identify with.  As a typical example, I was
 16       literally sick last night because the Canadians blew a
 17       lead in the last --
 18  1586                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was too,
 19       Dr. Bayne.
 20  1587                 DR. BAYNE:  I come from a cricket
 21       culture.
 22       --- Laughter / Rires
 23  1588                 DR. BAYNE:  But that is a certain
 24       kind of a symbol.  That is why for how many years now I
 25       have stuck with this.  This is the first time I am


  1       here, but believe you me I have heard of this.  I have
  2       communicated and sent e-mails, et cetera, I have spoken
  3       to Kerry and members of the Board for nearly ten years.
  4  1589                 If this is granted, I will be, I
  5       think, one of the -- I wouldn't say grandfathers, I
  6       guess I would be a sort of a godfather type of thing in 
  7       a sense.
  8  1590                 Why?  Because I believe that this is
  9       a mechanism.  What has been defined here gives us a
 10       sort of mechanism by which we can bring about the kind
 11       of Canada that I am talking about, where everyone
 12       speaks to everyone, where everyone learns about
 13       everyone, where everyone can choose to borrow or not
 14       borrow the keys from everyone else, where we can all
 15       create a situation where this Canada will emerge with
 16       which we can all identify.  So that is why I support
 17       this.
 18  1591                 Now, I understand here the issue is
 19       not whether this is a good thing.  I understand from
 20       everything I have heard said -- if I can interpret
 21       signs and body language and read minds -- that it is
 22       not that this is not a good thing.  It is how should it
 23       be done?  What structure, what models, what type of
 24       programming -- not programming so much as whether it's
 25       analog or digital.  The technologies of that I


  1       understand in only one sense that is important to me:  
  2       A model of technology that is going to make it possible
  3       for this to involve the maximum amount of Canadians in
  4       different groups as quickly as possible and efficiently
  5       and as effectively as possible.
  6  1592                 I am told, and from what I can
  7       understand from the literature that I have read, that
  8       that is an analog and not a digital technology.  That's
  9       why I am here.  I am here to support the concept of an
 10       emerging Canada and the use of a technology that
 11       ensures that we bring that about or we facilitate it in
 12       the most efficient way possible.  If analog is going to
 13       do that, then that is what I am supporting.
 14  1593                 MR. MANCINELLI:  Mr. Chairman,
 15       Members of the Commission.  My name is Joe Mancinelli. 
 16       I am International Vice-President for the Labourers
 17       International Union of North America.
 18  1594                 I represent 850,000 workers
 19       throughout North America.  Our head office is in
 20       Washington, D.C.  Our office here in Canada is in the
 21       centre of the universe which is Hamilton, Ontario, and
 22       we have 80,000 members in Canada.
 23  1595                 My travels take me right across North
 24       America and the one thing that stands out in my mind is
 25       the diversity between the two countries.  I have an


  1       opportunity to travel extensively and feel, if I can
  2       put it that way -- and I am by no means an expert, but
  3       I can feel the differences in the diversity of both
  4       countries and that diversity exists primarily because
  5       of the multicultural aspects of Canada.
  6  1596                 In the United States -- and this is a
  7       clicheish terminology that we have heard many times
  8       before -- it is a melting pot.  Immigrants who move
  9       into the United States, our members, many of make up
 10       the 850,000 workers, primarily in construction in the
 11       United States, English is not their first language and
 12       they are encouraged in the United States to assimilate
 13       as quickly as possible into the clicheish melting pot.
 14  1597                 In Canada, however, our 80,000
 15       members are encouraged differently.  When I went to
 16       school, as an example -- I was born in Canada -- I
 17       didn't speak any of the two official languages when I
 18       went to grade one.  It was Italian and it didn't hurt
 19       me in my career and in life to have grown up and gone
 20       to school not speaking any of the two languages.
 21  1598                 Well, most of the immigrants, most of
 22       the folks who come to this country, don't speak any of
 23       the two official languages and they do extremely well. 
 24       The reason why they do well here -- and they maintain
 25       their identity and they strive to maintain their


  1       cultural ties to their original countries -- is because
  2       of the way our culture is set up and that is
  3       multiculturalism.  To promote the system, and to
  4       promote it in any way, and that being in the form of
  5       another station that would promote multiculturalism, is
  6       to enrich the fabric of the Canadian society that
  7       exists already and to enhance it would mean to give
  8       this application credence and extend it to mainstream
  9       Canadians.
 10  1599                 I have five children and you can
 11       imagine what a challenge it is with five children
 12       battling with U.S. television.  A battle for television
 13       is one thing in itself, and then a fight for
 14       programming and what they want to see from music
 15       videos, and the exposure is quite significant.  Our
 16       children nowadays are exposed to a very large
 17       percentage of U.S. programming in television.
 18  1600                 Anything that would balance that
 19       content that our children are exposed to -- and that's
 20       exactly what World Television Télémonde is offering
 21       here -- is an opportunity to our generations to
 22       celebrate that cultural diversity that we so cherish
 23       ourselves, their parents, and an opportunity for them
 24       to experience those cultures, whether it be in movies
 25       or in music, or whatever, but it does something else,


  1       and it's not just the direct experience that I have
  2       watching another movie, but it is the maintenance and
  3       survival of that culture within Canada that is most
  4       important, that the cultural group that is within
  5       Canada gets an opportunity to celebrate their culture
  6       by continuing to watch programming that is in their
  7       language and part of their previous culture that they
  8       grew up with.
  9  1601                 So this philosophy and plan to
 10       introduce worldwide programming sounds like a perfect
 11       fit into the make up and fabric of our Canadian
 12       society.
 13  1602                 The demographics shift rapidly here
 14       in Canada.  We have seen a huge shift in demographics
 15       in our own organization.  Immigration patterns change
 16       rapidly and, in order to accommodate those demographic
 17       shifts, we have done a number of things, from
 18       legislative changes like some of the legislative
 19       changes we have seen at the CRTC that pertain to
 20       multiculturalism, to police officers who are hired and
 21       who can speak the languages of our citizens, to
 22       politicians such as Maria Minna who can speak in her
 23       mother tongue to her constituents.
 24  1603                 If all of this is happening out
 25       there, why not complete the picture by introducing this


  1       plan and this philosophy in opening up a channel for
  2       world television that Télémonde is proposing?  It makes
  3       ultimate sense.
  4  1604                 So, Mr. Chairman and Panel Members, I
  5       am going to cut it short at this point and tell you
  6       that I support wholeheartedly the application that is
  7       in front of you, and in particular the desire to reach
  8       mainstream Canadians which are all the very wonderful
  9       and colourful aspects of our multicultural Canada.
 10  1605                 Thank you for this opportunity to
 11       have me here.
 12  1606                 Thank you.
 13  1607                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 14  1608                 Commissioner Pennefather?
 15  1609                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just one
 16       question, Professor Bayne.  One of my questions, which
 17       is the obvious one that here we are looking at the how
 18       and perhaps you would like to expand a little bit on
 19       why you feel this service is one which deserves the
 20       carriage that is being discussed by the applicant.
 21  1610                 And if I may to Mr. Weiner just how
 22       you see this service serving French-speaking Canadians.
 23  1611                 So perhaps Professor Bayne?
 24  1612                 MR. WEINER:  If I may take a moment
 25       and reflect on an activity that I witnessed in Europe


  1       in particular this past week, which is becoming more
  2       and more troublesome.  Movements again at trying to
  3       build pure nation states and hostile anti-immigrant
  4       statements, extreme right-wing groups arising and
  5       strengthening their position in communities. 
  6  1613                 Canada has been a unique model of a
  7       multicultural nation, multilingual, that has the two
  8       official languages and we must continue to be that
  9       model.
 10  1614                 Now, when there are problems around
 11       the world, it gives us an opportunity -- and I say
 12       opportunity because if we don't see it as an
 13       opportunity the battles of the countries of origin
 14       could be transposed here.  If we all we see are battles
 15       that are taking place on the streets of countries where
 16       our people have come from, it sometimes makes it
 17       difficult for us to keep building the environment for
 18       the citizenship that I believe in, which is the
 19       all-inclusive one.
 20  1615                 C'est absolument la même chose pour
 21       nous qui vivons à Montréal.  Pendant plus de 20 ans
 22       j'ai représenté des concitoyens qui viennent de toutes
 23       les communautés culturelles et sans doute des deux
 24       langues officielles, une en situation minoritaire.
 25  1616                 Je sais aussi que vous, madame la


  1       conseillère, partagez beaucoup de cette communauté. 
  2       Vous avec vécu toute cette expérience.
  3  1617                 There is a very warm welcome for the
  4       immigrants in particular.  Integration has not been
  5       difficult.  We still would like to see far more
  6       movement and I think that it's an opportunity to build
  7       far more understanding.
  8  1618                 I was intrigued before when one of
  9       the people that was making a representation on behalf
 10       of the Cable Broadcasters indicated that they felt that
 11       programming from abroad in another language subtitled
 12       would probably be appealing to almost solely or wholly
 13       to the members of that community.
 14  1619                 Well, I recently went to see a
 15       wonderful movie called "Monsoon Wedding" and I was
 16       looking around just to see among the 200 or 300 people
 17       how many East Indians I saw.  There were very few,
 18       almost none.  Almost all of us in the audience seemed
 19       to be from the full diversity of the Montreal
 20       community.  I saw everybody there, all the people that
 21       are usually active on the streets of Montreal.
 22  1620                 So I see this as an enormous benefit. 
 23       I think that it brings the world to Canada.  Canada is
 24       the world and I think this gives us a continued
 25       opportunity to represent the kind of democracy and the


  1       kind of humanity we have built which is an
  2       all-inclusive one.
  3  1621                 DR. BAYNE:  If I may respond to that
  4       in picking up on what Gerry has just said?  I a member
  5       and a founding past-President of a company called the
  6       Black Theatre Workshop of Montreal.  I describe it as
  7       an anomaly for a simple reason.  I understand we
  8       started basically, if you read the historical document
  9       since 1868 -- is that right?  This is 140 years
 10       approximately and we have had immigration in here from
 11       the beginning because when we came here there were
 12       people before, 400 and something, more 100 and
 13       something of immigration, and more intensely recently,
 14       since we decided we would be lazy and only have one and
 15       a half children, we have to import our children, right? 
 16       So we have had even more intense immigration over the
 17       last 30 years.
 18  1622                 There is not a nationality or culture
 19       in this world that we don't have represented in some
 20       way in this country, yet the only national art, the
 21       only art and culture celebrated at a national
 22       level --some people refer to it as the mainstream
 23       level -- is British and consistent with the early
 24       traditions of how the British attempted to develop this
 25       country which is conformity to British values, and the


  1       darker your skin was, the farther you were in
  2       appearance from the British and the lower you were on
  3       the totem pole, and the challenge from the French
  4       brought in the French culture mostly at a Quebec level,
  5       but also threatening its position at the national
  6       level.
  7  1623                 There is nothing that reflects
  8       Italians, Greeks, Indians, Asians, Portuguese, nothing.
  9       All of it is where someone told me once in very
 10       disparaging terms when I first went to British Columbia
 11       as a student, they used the term "DPs".  I didn't
 12       understand what it meant.  They told me these were
 13       "displaced persons" and they told me these displaced
 14       persons were Europeans.  I was quite frankly surprised
 15       because I usually thought of myself as an outsider of a
 16       different race and maybe they might think that I was
 17       more displaced than they were.
 18  1624                 So the Europeans were considered,
 19       when I got into British Columbia in 1955, as displaced
 20       persons and they made funny statements about the Polish
 21       people as the fascists dancing in their basements.
 22  1625                 That is how they saw the culture of
 23       other peoples.  It was either British and later French,
 24       or the immigrants dancing in their basements, the
 25       immigrants or fascists dancing in their basements. 


  1       That's where our cultures, all these other cultures
  2       have been relegated in the symbolic basement.  By that
  3       I mean not celebrated at the national level.
  4  1626                 I think that this sort of model what
  5       it does is it brings all of us, not just Blacks and
  6       Chinese and Greeks, everybody, to celebrate and to
  7       create a culture which is a Canadian culture, which is
  8       everybody's culture, buy it doesn't relegate it to
  9       dancing in the basement.  The Ukrainians dancing across
 10       the stage on Canada Day.  It brings them up to the
 11       national, the truly national representation of Canada.
 12  1627                 This is just one mechanism.  There is
 13       not only one, but this is one mechanism that can
 14       facilitate that.  Of course, I expect that it wouldn't
 15       go through very smoothly initially and who knows, we
 16       might have to bring them back here and challenge them
 17       to do what they said they had to do.
 18  1628                 That is where this structure called
 19       CRTC is a good structure, but I do believe also that
 20       this structure called CRTC needs some reinventing to
 21       these things that we are presenting to you.
 22  1629                 You are supposed to make sure that
 23       these things that we are saying to you, you understand
 24       them and you make them happen.
 25  1630                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you


  1       very much.
  2  1631                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
  3       McKendry?
  4  1632                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: 
  5       Mr. Mancinelli, one of the issues that we have to
  6       consider in the hearing if we do what the applicant
  7       would like us to do is raising people's cable rates. 
  8       And I take it from what you said, your members find
  9       what is being proposed a valuable enough service and a
 10       service of sufficient interest to them that they are
 11       prepared to pay higher cable rates for it.
 12  1633                 MR. MANCINELLI:  There is an old
 13       saying that you get what you pay for and if we truly
 14       believe in what everybody is saying here about our
 15       society and how important it is to share our culture
 16       and everything else, then there is a cost attached to
 17       it, and I think it's a very small price to pay.
 18  1634                 My members and all 80,000 of their
 19       families here in Canada would be glad to do it because,
 20       first of all, it exposes them to possibly programming
 21       that's in their own language or from their previous
 22       countries, which is a great thing that they can
 23       preserve something that they brought to this great
 24       country, and give an opportunity to our other members
 25       to share in that.  I think that's a wonderful thing.


  1  1635                 I have to share with you a story.  My
  2       father-in-law for the longest time would not come and
  3       baby-sit at my house because I didn't have programming
  4       for Italian television because you can buy, through
  5       cable, a certain package, but then you can buy the
  6       other one and at that time we didn't have it.  And I
  7       couldn't figure out why he wouldn't come and baby-sit
  8       and then he finally told me.  He said:  "Because you
  9       don't have that channel at your house so you have to
 10       bring your kids to my house so I can continue enjoying
 11       that kind programming".
 12  1636                 Now, that might seem like an
 13       insignificant story, but it is one that defines the
 14       attachment there is within our multicultural
 15       communities to have that kind of programming and it's
 16       important to them.  It makes them feel like they are a
 17       part of things when they can share in things that are
 18       familiar.
 19  1637                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you
 20       very much.
 21  1638                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Mancinelli, you
 22       said you had 80,000 members in Canada.
 23  1639                 MR. MANCINELLI:  Yes.
 24  1640                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I am not
 25       familiar.  What industry are they in?


  1  1641                 MR. MANCINELLI:  Primarily
  2       construction, construction workers from general
  3       labourers to carpenters, cement finishers, et cetera,
  4       in the construction industry, to health-care workers as
  5       well and a number of other sectors.  It's not just
  6       construction.  We have been around since 1903.  It is
  7       our centennial in less than a year from now, our 100th
  8       year anniversary and we have grown from general
  9       labourers to about 850,000 general workers in many
 10       different areas.
 11  1642                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you spread
 12       across?  Do you have members in all provinces?
 13  1643                 MR. MANCINELLI:  In all provinces in
 14       Canada, and in every state in the United States.
 15  1644                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 16  1645                 Thank you very much, gentlemen.
 17  1646                 Mr. Secretary?
 18  1647                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 19  1648                 The next appearing intervention will
 20       be presented by Telelatino Network, Mr. Aldo Di Felice.
 21  1649                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 22       Mr. Di Felice.  You seem to be a glutton for
 23       punishment.  So carry on.
 24  1650                 MR. DI FELICE:  Unfortunately, yes.
 25       --- Laughter / Rires


  2  1651                 MR. DI FELICE:  Thank you,
  3       Mr. Chairman.
  4  1652                 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my
  5       name is Aldo Di Felice and I am President of Telelatino
  6       Network Inc., a Canadian ethnic specialty channel that
  7       has been in operation for 18 years.
  8  1653                 Thank you for this opportunity to
  9       briefly elaborate on Telelatino's written intervention
 10       in this matter.
 11  1654                 Telelatino is one of a group of four
 12       ethnic specialty channel licensees who jointly
 13       submitted an intervention in this matter.  The group of
 14       ethnic services represented by that intervention serve
 15       millions of Canadians with programming variously
 16       described as multicultural, ethnic or third language.
 17  1655                 We strongly support the conclusions
 18       previously reached by the Commission in the decision
 19       which is under reconsideration today -- what we will
 20       refer to as the "WTM Decision".
 21  1656                 The Commission rightly concluded in
 22       our opinion that the substance and quantity of WTM's
 23       Canadian and foreign content did not especially
 24       distinguish the Applicant's proposal such that it
 25       should receive exceptional carriage terms.


  1  1657                 The substance of the WTM application
  2       has not materially changed since.  The Order-in-Council
  3       by which the WTM Decision was referred back to the CRTC
  4       for reconsideration refers to the need for the CRTC to
  5       "fully assess appropriate carriage options for services
  6       that aspire to reflect and connect multicultural
  7       communities to broader audiences" but, since this
  8       proceeding is focusing on the WTM Decision alone, we
  9       submit that WTM's application is neither new nor unique
 10       in this respect.
 11  1658                 There are many services within the
 12       existing hierarchy of multicultural Canadian television
 13       that aspire to do this "reflecting and connecting"
 14       activity and, in fact, more than aspiring, are actually
 15       doing this very sort of activity, ie. connecting
 16       mainstream audiences to multicultural communities, 
 17       promoting pluralism, blurring divisions, removing
 18       linguistic obstacles, practising diversity not in a
 19       measured, empirical and incremental way, but
 20       wholeheartedly and with passion.
 21  1659                 To date, the Commission has, in fact,
 22       considered appropriate carriage options in the
 23       multicultural broadcasting area by having created, and
 24       continuing to create a vibrant hierarchy of Canadian
 25       services that are variously distributed.


  1  1660                 From multilingual radio to local
  2       conventional multicultural television, to mainstream
  3       conventional TV that includes blocks of multicultural
  4       programming and, of course, national, dedicated
  5       Canadian ethnic specialty channels, the CRTC has, in
  6       fact, fostered a multiplicity of broadcast services
  7       that reflect the many faces of Canada to everyone.
  8  1661                 And as far as carriage options, such
  9       services are delivered in a variety of ways including
 10       over-the-air, analog, cable and digital.
 11  1662                 With the Commission's recent
 12       licensing of new multicultural over-the-air TV channels
 13       in both Vancouver and Toronto, and an additional
 14       channel in Toronto that has committed to do a material
 15       amount of English-language Canadian ethnic shows, we
 16       will be even more well served by a whole range of
 17       wholly and partially multicultural/ethnic TV services
 18       across Canada on both conventional over-the-air TV and
 19       through specialty TV channels.
 20  1663                 If the Commission were to determine
 21       in the face of all this multiplicity of multicultural
 22       services and modes of carriage that the WTM Decision
 23       should be modified and that the matter of appropriate
 24       carriage options for these types of services is still a
 25       question, then it is respectfully suggested that the


  1       best way to proceed would be to hold a general policy
  2       proceeding on this issue.
  3  1664                 The Order-in-Council has requested
  4       the Commission to:
  5                              "... fully assess the
  6                              appropriate options for the
  7                              carriage of broadcasting
  8                              distribution undertakings of
  9                              services that seek to reflect
 10                              and connect Canada's
 11                              multicultural communities to
 12                              broader audiences".
 13  1665                 A full consideration would extend
 14       beyond the merits of the application that is before
 15       you.
 16  1666                 Moreover, such a policy proceeding
 17       might consider the variety of alternative and
 18       complementary ways for services to achieve connections
 19       between multicultural communities and the Canadian
 20       public.
 21  1667                 For instance, dubbed foreign
 22       programming may be an alternative or a complement to
 23       subtitling foreign programming.  Similarly, dual audio
 24       tracks between official language and foreign language
 25       versions of programs is also another technique to


  1       broaden accessibility and preserve authenticity.
  2  1668                 Yet the merits of these techniques,
  3       or many other creative techniques, for creating
  4       all-inclusive yet multicultural programming has not
  5       necessarily been fully explored in the present
  6       application.
  7  1669                 We would also like to point out the
  8       problematic fact that the nature of the proposed WTM
  9       service seems to be neither ethnic nor non-ethnic.  In
 10       particular, vis-à-vis the relationship between WTM
 11       programming and the programming of the ethnic specialty
 12       intervenors in this matter, WTM's reply dated May 1st
 13       2002, to these intervenors is important to note.
 14  1670                 It reads:
 15                              "These intervenors are claiming
 16                              their services are
 17                              `multicultural'.  They are not. 
 18                              Asian Television,
 19                              Fairchild/TalentVision, Festival
 20                              Portuguese and Telelatino are,
 21                              by the terms of the licences
 22                              they apply for, `ethnic', ie.
 23                              they are narrowcast for
 24                              particular ethnic groups.  They
 25                              are not `multicultural', which


  1                              implies broadcast, not
  2                              narrowcast programming.  WTM is
  3                              multicultural -- not `ethnic'.
  4                              It will never offer ethnic
  5                              programming as defined by the
  6                              CRTC, ie. that is specifically
  7                              directed to only one culturally
  8                              or racially distinct group". 
  9                              (As read)
 10  1671                 I should mention as an aside as well
 11       that WTM's written reply then goes on, after denying it
 12       is going to offer any ethnic programming, to confirm
 13       that it will, in fact, include ethnic advertising, but
 14       offering to limit such ethnic advertising.
 15  1672                 The applicant, in its appearance
 16       before you, has stressed that it is proposing a
 17       multicultural rather than an ethnic service and that no
 18       multicultural service exists.
 19  1673                 With respect, we see that as a
 20       distinction without a difference in light of the large
 21       menu of existing services that appeal not only to
 22       ethnic communities but the broader Canadian public.
 23  1674                 The applicant seems to be saying that
 24       as between Canada's ethnic specialty services and WTM,
 25       only WTM can fulfil the role of fostering, promoting


  1       and reflecting multicultural diversity and unity
  2       through television onto mainstream Canada.
  3  1675                 Without going on at length about the
  4       ways Canada's ethnic specialties, and especially
  5       Telelatino Network, have been going about this work now
  6       for years, a description of the various creative ways
  7       Canada's ethnic specialties have created mainstream
  8       accessibility to their programming is listed in the
  9       written collective intervention we have made.
 10  1676                 With respect to the issue of direct
 11       competition with Canadian ethnic specialty channels, we
 12       have made representations in our written intervention
 13       which we still believe are still valid, though WTM has
 14       attempted to modify its stance in its reply and offer
 15       some assurances that Canadian ethnic specialty channels
 16       will not be adversely affected by the WTM service.
 17  1677                 However, we must point out that
 18       Mr. Iannuzzi, as the founder and driving force behind
 19       the WTM application, is a long-standing Italian media
 20       business person who operates both Italian and Hispanic
 21       newspapers and has been closely involved in Italian
 22       language programming.
 23  1678                 It is entirely predictable that the
 24       WTM service would include and, in fact, the application
 25       does often refer to, Italian and Spanish programs in


  1       quantities, we submit, that would make it directly
  2       competitive with TLN.
  3  1679                 In conclusion, we urge the Commission
  4       to confirm its decision granting WTM a Category 2
  5       digital licence.
  6  1680                 We submit WTM has not made the case
  7       for exceptional importance that would justify its
  8       licensing as an analog service with mandatory carriage
  9       on basic service or a highly penetrated tier.
 10  1681                 If, however, the Commission
 11       determines that it should modify its conclusions
 12       reached in the WTM Decision, we submit the appropriate
 13       carriage mode for WTM should be assessed against the
 14       background of the availability to Canadians of all of
 15       the existing services which aspire to reflect and
 16       connect multicultural communities to broader audiences.
 17  1682                 This would be consistent with the
 18       Order-in-Council's directive that a full assessment of
 19       this issue be undertaken.
 20  1683                 Thank you, Mr. Chairman and
 21       Commissioners.
 22  1684                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 23       Pennefather?
 24  1685                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 25       Mr. Chairman.


  1  1686                 Thank you for your intervention. 
  2       There are a number of important points here and you
  3       have laid them out quite clearly.
  4  1687                 Let me just ask you though to clarify
  5       one point for me.  At the beginning, I think what you
  6       are presenting to us is a statement that currently
  7       Canadians are served by a number of different
  8       programming channels, networks, and so on, which are
  9       multicultural, ethnic or third language.
 10  1688                 You seem to be saying that the
 11       existing hierarchy of multicultural Canadian television
 12       does achieve the goals of reflecting and serving
 13       Canadian multicultural society.
 14  1689                 If would appear from that that you do
 15       see the objectives of the Act being fulfilled through
 16       these various players.  So why at the same time would
 17       you propose, as I understand it in this submission, a
 18       review of the service to multicultural Canadians and to
 19       Canada as a whole, if, as you say, things are, in fact,
 20       in place to do that?
 21  1690                 MR. DI FELICE:  I'm not suggesting
 22       both the issues simultaneously.  I am suggesting that
 23       in response to the Order-in-Council's directive to
 24       reconsider this decision, we should take into account
 25       the actual breadth of multicultural programming that


  1       exists in Canada and the fact that the CRTC has in fact
  2       created a hierarchy and has in fact, in the past,
  3       considered the carriage options with respect to those
  4       various services.
  5  1691                 But furthermore, and in the
  6       alternative, if it is determined that despite that
  7       overwhelming evidence of a multiplicity of services,
  8       with a variety of carriage options under an existing
  9       framework that the WTM Decision ought to be changed,
 10       then we are suggesting that the Order-in-Council as it
 11       reads is suggesting that that consideration, that
 12       assessment apply not only to WTM, but that it apply to
 13       all services that aspire to "reflect" or "connect", as
 14       the Order-in-Council puts it.
 15  1692                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think I
 16       follow you a little better.
 17  1693                 So if no action were taken, you see
 18       the evolution of the system in terms of serving
 19       multicultural objectives as well under way, if not
 20       quite well along.  But in the final paragraph, and as
 21       you just said, if the WTM Decision is, in fact, altered
 22       in some way pursuant to this hearing, then you would
 23       see the necessity of a review and in that sense look at
 24       the overall picture.
 25  1694                 Am I now understanding a little bit


  1       better?  Basically it's fine unless we take action on
  2       the WTM review.
  3  1695                 MR. DI FELICE:  Yes, I am suggesting
  4       that the Order-in-Council reads that way.
  5  1696                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Now, there
  6       is an aspect in here where you talk about the impact of
  7       WTM -- if, in fact, it were given a carriage over and
  8       above the Category 2 carriage granted in the licensing
  9       procedure in 757 -- on services, and I think in the
 10       joint application there is further reference to the
 11       impact on existing ethnic specialty services.
 12  1697                 Can you expand a little bit more on
 13       what that impact would be?  For example, if, as you
 14       say, this is a service destined to a broad audience,
 15       how would that impact on the advertising revenues of
 16       services dedicated to a more niche audience.
 17  1698                 MR. DI FELICE:  Well, we have
 18       intervened in both previous hearings, or two of the
 19       three previous hearings, the two most recent, and
 20       provided both written and oral representations
 21       regarding the details of those possible direct
 22       competitive effects.
 23  1699                 With respect to the joint
 24       intervention by the four ethnic specialities in this
 25       case, the impacts could be different for each of them,


  1       but with respect to Telelatino in particular, and this
  2       application, the WTM application, has varied widely in
  3       terms of what exactly was being proposed in terms of
  4       limits on numbers of languages, numbers of countries
  5       from which this programming would come.
  6  1700                 But when all was said and done, there
  7       continued to be what could be an enormous amount of, in
  8       our case, Latin programming, Italian and Spanish
  9       programming, that could occupy prime time on WTM, and
 10       depending on the carriage option that WTM were to be
 11       given, it would, in our opinion, in our respectful
 12       submission, invoke the Commission's long-standing
 13       policy which was recently reconfirmed in the digital
 14       framework policy, that directly competitive pay and
 15       specialty services in the same genre, in the same
 16       category, would not be licensed.
 17  1701                 In our opinion, the 20 per cent in
 18       any language allowance that forms part of the existing
 19       WTM decision would permit 40 per cent of their overall
 20       broadcast schedule of WTM to be directly competitive
 21       with Telelatino because it would be 20 per cent per
 22       language.
 23  1702                 I recognize as well, though, that WTM
 24       has offered to reduce that to 10 per cent in any
 25       language.  That being said though, 20 per cent, that is


  1       10 per cent Italian, 10 per cent Spanish, is a
  2       significant part of any schedule.  Certainly 20 per
  3       cent being over four and a half hours per day of
  4       directly competitive programming would be, I think,
  5       enough to constitute direct competitiveness within the
  6       meaning of the CRTC's existing policies.
  7  1703                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just a
  8       little further on that point.  We did discuss this with
  9       the applicant in chatting about the world cinema
 10       component.
 11  1704                 The point was made that given that
 12       this is a proposal directed to all Canadians, not just
 13       to, if I may, Italian-Canadians or to the niche
 14       directed towards whom you direct your programming.  Not
 15       only is it a different audience, but also different
 16       programming would be selected.  That, in fact,
 17       different kinds of films, even if they were Italian
 18       films, would be selected.
 19  1705                 Do you agree with that position?
 20  1706                 MR. DI FELICE:  I'm not sure how that
 21       would be monitored.  What I can say in terms of my
 22       observations is that WTM's reply to the specific
 23       interventions by the group of ethnic specialties we
 24       were involved with specifically cites two examples of
 25       films.  "The Gods Must be Crazy", which has aired in


  1       Canada, and "Italian for Beginners", which has just
  2       come out of the theatres, and I am sure will air on
  3       Showcase and Bravo! or CBC.
  4  1707                 So I don't see that those two
  5       examples, just as an observation, are films that are
  6       any more distinct or any different or unique than films
  7       that would otherwise already play or have played in
  8       Canada.  I'm not sure how that offer were to be
  9       monitored or were to be made COL.
 10  1708                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 11       very much.
 12  1709                 Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.
 13  1710                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 14  1711                 Mr. Di Felice, I wonder whether you
 15       can elaborate on two elements of your oral
 16       presentation.
 17  1712                 Page 3, at the top of that page,
 18       after quoting the Order-in-Council before us in regard
 19       to the assessment of appropriate options, and so on,
 20       you say that:
 21                              "A full consideration would
 22                              extend beyond the merits of the
 23                              application that is before you".
 24  1713                 I am not sure I understand the point
 25       that you are making.


  1  1714                 MR. DI FELICE:  Well, the point I
  2       think I am making here -- and I think it has been made
  3       by several intervenors today, this afternoon -- is that
  4       the actual wording of the Order-in-Council does not
  5       limit the full assessment of carriage options to WTM,
  6       but to services that aspire to do what WTM is aspiring
  7       to do.
  8  1715                 So I am making the point that the
  9       Order-in-Council is suggesting a full assessment of
 10       carriage options with respect to services that aspire,
 11       not the WTM service.
 12  1716                 We are dealing, as I understand it
 13       over the past day, and a half with the WTM carriage
 14       options.
 15  1717                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  I mean, I
 16       guess there are two elements of it.  A decision is
 17       referred back.  It's a decision that is referred back
 18       and that decision gives the Commission a number of
 19       options.  The matter that the Commission is asked to
 20       reconsider is the matter that you have quoted, the
 21       carriage options, and so on.
 22  1718                 The Commission, at that stage, and
 23       before it can reach its decision, has to reconsider
 24       that matter in respect of that decision.
 25  1719                 So you are saying that we would be in


  1       a dilemma, we couldn't possibly do what we are supposed
  2       to do by doing what we are doing.
  3  1720                 MR. DI FELICE:  No, I am not
  4       suggesting that.
  5  1721                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
  6  1722                 MR. DI FELICE:  I'm suggesting that
  7       in the context of your reconsideration of the WTM
  8       decision it is imperative that the full spectrum of
  9       multicultural services and carriage options that have
 10       already been put in place by the CRTC's policies be
 11       taken into consideration.
 12  1723                 In my opinion the CRTC has already
 13       done that, has done that prior to this hearing, but the
 14       Order-in-Council is suggesting that that framework,
 15       that that assessment happen.  It is not suggesting that
 16       it happen in the future or that it happen now.  In my
 17       opinion it has already happened, but I think that --
 18       and I may be mixing two concepts together here -- the
 19       reconsideration of the WTM decision has to be done in
 20       context.
 21  1724                 There are many people who have
 22       appeared before you today who have said things that are
 23       moving, inspiring really, in terms of their love for
 24       multiculturalism and their want, their need, their
 25       feeling that there is an un-met need for diversity in


  1       the broadcasting system, but I think that has to be
  2       taken in the context of what there actually is and what
  3       policy has actually already been developed.
  4  1725                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you are
  5       basically saying that there are other conclusions
  6       available to us, then confirming the existing decision,
  7       well that is what it says in the law and that is what
  8       we have been dealing with.
  9  1726                 If that is your point, I take it,
 10       there are certainly other options, but it seems to me
 11       that in the sheer practicalities of a reconsideration
 12       proceeding you are to reconsider a given decision in
 13       the light of a matter that you ostensibly did not
 14       consider sufficiently, and parties are given full
 15       opportunity to comment on that notice as well as on
 16       additional material that the applicant files.  So the
 17       notion of a full consideration can be given in the
 18       context of that hearing.
 19  1727                 If you are saying, among the outcomes
 20       you don't have to end up reconfirming the existing
 21       licensee in the original decision, or in any changed
 22       decision, if that is your point, then I take that
 23       point.
 24  1728                 MR. DI FELICE:  And I would agree
 25       with what you have just said.


  1  1729                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  My second point is
  2       this.  If we go to the -- it's on your last page, on
  3       page 5.  Were you here when the CAB made its
  4       presentation?
  5  1730                 MR. DI FELICE:  Yes.
  6  1731                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, it's on this
  7       notion of whether under this reconsideration we are
  8       meant to look at this service that we are focused on. 
  9       The CAB's position was that:  "You should also look at
 10       new services calling for a new proceeding" and I asked
 11       specifically about existing services and their answer
 12       was, "No".  But you are saying that is exclusively what
 13       you should be looking at is existing services.
 14  1732                 Am I correct?
 15  1733                 MR. DI FELICE:  No, not necessarily.
 16  1734                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
 17  1735                 MR. DI FELICE:  I can understand the
 18       CAB position.  I haven't given it much thought was to
 19       whether new or existing services should be what you
 20       fully assess or continue to assess or, for example, may
 21       decide to invoke policy hearings or whatever else.
 22  1736                 If I think about it, I can understand
 23       a position such as the CAB's and I think I would tend
 24       to agree with it because, as I have just stated about a
 25       minute ago, my belief is that the CRTC already has a


  1       framework in place, has already considered carriage
  2       options.
  3  1737                 There is a whole panoply of services
  4       and carriage options that exist in the various
  5       multicultural services that have already been licensed,
  6       whether or not launched -- even some recently licensed
  7       services.
  8  1738                 So in my view, I would tend to agree
  9       with the CAB's response to you this afternoon that
 10       existing services wouldn't be part of a continued
 11       consideration or assessment of carriage options.
 12  1739                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would not be?
 13  1740                 MR. DI FELICE:  Would not.  That
 14       proposed services would be, I can understand that point
 15       of view.  It makes sense to me.
 16  1741                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  When then in
 17       the light of that, how should I read your last
 18       paragraph, where you say that:
 19                              "... the appropriate carriage
 20                              mode for WTM should be assessed
 21                              against the background of the
 22                              availability to Canadians of all
 23                              of the existing services which
 24                              aspire to reflect and connect
 25                              multicultural communities to


  1                              broader audiences".
  2  1742                 MR. DI FELICE:  I think that is no
  3       different than the way I have put it earlier, that the
  4       existing spectrum of services and carriage options have
  5       to be considered when we consider WTM's submission and
  6       when we consider the submissions of individuals,
  7       politicians and supporters who want multicultural
  8       television, or television that aspires to connect
  9       communities to exist on television.
 10  1743                 I think we have to consider how much
 11       of that is already there.  How is it there?  How is
 12       distributed.  Does the CRTC already have carriage
 13       options and a framework that have allowed this to
 14       thrive?  Or is there such an un-met need that something
 15       drastic, something exceptional has to be done with
 16       respect to this one application?
 17  1744                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see what you are
 18       saying there.
 19  1745                 Thank you very much, Mr. Di Felice.
 20  1746                 MR. DI FELICE:  Thank you, and I
 21       promise I won't be back for a while.
 22       --- Laughter / Rires
 23  1747                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary?
 24  1748                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  1749                 The next appearing intervention will


  1       be presented by the Communications and Diversity
  2       Network, Messrs. Rasalingam, Lumb and Friedman.
  4  1750                 MR. RASALINGAM:  Good afternoon,
  5       Commissioners.
  6  1751                 Thank you for the opportunity to
  7       present before you today.  My name is Raj Rasalingam
  8       and I am the President of the Pearson-Shoyama Institute
  9       and a member of the Canadian Communications and
 10       Diversity Network.
 11  1752                 The Communications and Diversity
 12       Network aims to modernize a portrayal of ethnic and
 13       racial minorities and Aboriginals People in mainstream
 14       programming so that the multiracial and multicultural
 15       reality of Canada is reflected in Canadian
 16       broadcasting.
 17  1753                 The CDN also takes a strong interest
 18       in the provision of appropriate services in the third
 19       language category.
 20  1754                 In pursuit of its mission, the CDN
 21       shares expertise, resources and models of good practice
 22       in an effort to assist broadcasters to respond to the
 23       changing demographics and consumer markets in their
 24       programming and employment policies.
 25  1755                 The CND is proud to partner with Bell


  1       Globemedia, Rogers, CHUM and Standard Broadcasting in
  2       the work that we do.  We have appeared on numerous
  3       occasions over the past three years before this
  4       Commission, and it is a matter of public record to both
  5       the members of this panel as well as the staff of the
  6       CRTC of the Communications and Diversity Network's work
  7       with broadcasters.
  8  1756                 I am going to dispense with our
  9       written comments and address some key points that we
 10       believe should be addressed in this round before you.
 11  1757                 I have heard submissions and
 12       presentations from about nine o'clock this morning and
 13       one of the key aspects that has been presented today is
 14       the issue of multiculturalism.
 15  1758                 The fundamental issue of
 16       multiculturalism -- and this is an important arena for
 17       both the Commission to consider because, as I have
 18       attended many debates around licensing hearings, and we
 19       do not get involved in competitive licensing, the issue
 20       of ethnic services and multiculturalism comes up on
 21       numerous occasions.
 22  1759                 But fundamental to the issue of
 23       multiculturalism is one fundamental principle. 
 24       Multiculturalism was founded, to my understanding, to
 25       give fairness and equity and participation to


  1       multicultural communities.  Therefore, in light of that
  2       principle, with respect to you as a Commission, a
  3       simple fundamental and equitable principle should be
  4       that everybody should be allowed to participate in an
  5       open call for licensing.
  6  1760                 We have no grievance against the
  7       present applicant, however we should say that
  8       multicultural communities should be given the
  9       opportunity to apply in an open call.  That is a
 10       fundamental principle.  It's a fundamental principle of
 11       law in Canada that equity should prevail.  With a lack
 12       of equity, multiculturalism will fail.  That's not what
 13       we should be building in Canada.
 14  1761                 The applicant, after an appropriate
 15       and open call, if the applicant is deemed to be the
 16       most suitable, we, as an institute, will be happy in
 17       working with the applicant and supporting the
 18       applicant.  That is a principle that we, as an
 19       institute, we would like to bring to your attention.
 20  1762                 How would this process work?  We
 21       believe that as a Commission there should be proper
 22       consultations, independent consultations by the
 23       Commission which are open to ethnic communities so that
 24       they can provide input, and based on those assessments
 25       the Commission can evaluate what the criteria are for


  1       licensing.  We believe that that would be equitable and
  2       fair.
  3  1763                 It's in the light of this that we
  4       would like to present our opinions on the matter.
  5  1764                 I have also heard today that there
  6       have been references to the Australian broadcasting
  7       system.  If you go to a lot of the ethnic communities
  8       and ask them about the experience of Australia and
  9       immigration, you will see that Australia is one
 10       country, a leading western democracy, that puts
 11       immigrants into penal colonies.  We have seen that in
 12       the news recently where there have been many riots.
 13  1765                 Is that what we want in Canada?  Is
 14       that a model that we should be following?  We should be
 15       very careful, as a Commission, or when we issue
 16       licences, that we do not appropriate models that might
 17       not be suitable to the Canadian context.
 18  1766                 So I would urge you to look carefully
 19       and examine before a call should be made because our
 20       opinion is that once a call is made, if in your opinion
 21       you should decide that a multiethnic service is
 22       required in Canada, then a similar one will not come
 23       around for a long time.  So the importance of issuing
 24       and examining this is very critical.
 25  1767                 The other important point that we


  1       would like to bring to your attention is there are
  2       ethnic specialty services in existence.  You have heard
  3       from one before.  Where do they fit into the
  4       multiethnic framework of Canada?  How do they project
  5       the important values of Canada?  Are they going to be
  6       impacted?  Those are issues that have to be examined
  7       and evaluated.
  8  1768                 We as an institute have not had the
  9       opportunity to study this in detail and only a process
 10       initiated by the CRTC itself can assist different
 11       people to come and express their opinions.
 12  1769                 I would like to turn it over to Rubin
 13       Friedman.  Rubin is a member of the Diversity Network
 14       and was formerly National Communications Director for
 15       the Canadian Jewish Congress.
 16  1770                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.  Merci
 17       beaucoup.
 18  1771                 Il me fait grand plaisir de vous
 19       adresser la parole aujourd'hui et de comparaître devant
 20       la Commission sur une question qui me semble très
 21       importante et cruciale.
 22  1772                 I, like my colleague, have been
 23       listening to impassioned defences of multiculturalism
 24       during the day which are very impressive.
 25  1773                 I think that in that light you are


  1       being called upon in this decision in your own terms by
  2       the Order-in-Council to consider something that is
  3       broader than this particular application.
  4  1774                 The Act, after all, does not speak of
  5       the aspirations of broadcasters.  It speaks of the
  6       aspirations of people, the aspirations of the people
  7       who constitute the multicultural reality of Canada.
  8  1775                 I think that that is to continue, as
  9       Raj was saying, as something that we would like to get
 10       a better handle on.  What are these aspirations and to
 11       what extend have they been met or not been met by the
 12       current services?
 13  1776                 I think there is a great feeling of
 14       lack of meaning aspirations which relates to
 15       representation and that has been clear from a lot of
 16       hearings.
 17  1777                 When I take a look at the current
 18       application that is before us, I am not convinced that
 19       they fully met the test of how they are going to
 20       improve that representation over everybody else who
 21       also has to improve that representation.  It's not
 22       clear to me in terms of the plans that they have
 23       projected yet that they will be doing better than
 24       others who have a similar test to meet.  So that is one
 25       concern I have.


  1  1778                 I would like to be more sure that
  2       they are going to be doing better in terms of
  3       representation than all the other broadcasters who
  4       appear before you and also have to meet that standard.
  5  1779                 I have a concern about the heavy
  6       emphasis on foreign broadcasting.  To my mind what is
  7       unique about this application, as expressed by some of
  8       the people representing the organization, what is
  9       unique about it is this foreign broadcasting with the
 10       subtitles, not in terms of it appearing, but in terms
 11       of the extent and the emphasis on it.  So to me that is
 12       a unique aspect of the application.
 13  1780                 On the other hand, I don't think that
 14       particularly projects Canada's reality.  I don't think
 15       that it helps us understand what is being represented
 16       on those films, whatever it is, and again we do not
 17       know what the criteria will be used to choose those
 18       films.
 19  1781                 We have just heard about all the
 20       conflicts that exist in the rest of the world.  We
 21       heard a suggestion that we should be listening to the
 22       news in Russian about Chechnya.  I am not sure that we
 23       will get a much more objective opinion about Chechnya
 24       when we listen to the news in Russian even if it's
 25       subtitled in English and French.


  1  1782                 So I do have concerns that this is
  2       still a vague notion in terms of what is trying to be
  3       represented and how it represents to promoting the
  4       reflection to Canadians in a way that they are going to
  5       be coming together more strongly.
  6  1783                 Broadcasting is not a panacea.  You
  7       can just as easily promote division as unity when you
  8       broadcast.  Just because you are broadcasting in
  9       another language doesn't mean it's going to be more --
 10       it's going to help others understand.  It may do the
 11       opposite, depending on what you broadcast.
 12  1784                 So I am not convinced by that tranche
 13       of their programming that it is particularly or
 14       necessarily going to be promoting multicultural values,
 15       which I think they sincerely believe in, but I just
 16       don't see it yet in terms of that programming.
 17  1785                 I am impressed by the kinds of
 18       programming the talk about where Canadians will be
 19       talking to each other, where they will be more
 20       interactive.  I think that is certainly something we
 21       would like to see more of, but just to have foreign
 22       films or foreign newscasts, I don't see.
 23  1786                 Sometimes in listening to them I had
 24       the impression that this was simply a way of reducing
 25       the amount of American television that we have.  I


  1       think our challenge is not to reduce the amount of
  2       American television.  It's to increase the amount of
  3       Canadian television.
  4  1787                 I think the emphasis is a little off
  5       and I would like to see more in terms of increasing
  6       Canadian television rather than saying:  "Well, we are
  7       too influenced by the Americans.  So instead we are
  8       going to substitute all these other influences.  Now,
  9       we can be influenced by the Germans and the French and
 10       the Italians and everybody else around the world
 11       instead of just the Americans".
 12  1788                 I don't see that as the main purpose
 13       of our broadcasters to increase the diversity of the
 14       people who we are influenced by, but rather to promote
 15       Canadian identity which is a different emphasis.
 16  1789                 So those are the essentials of what I
 17       had to say.
 18  1790                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 19  1791                 Commissioner Pennefather?
 20  1792                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 21       Mr. Chairman.
 22  1793                 I would like to just clarify a few
 23       things.  Your written intervention on page 2, first
 24       paragraph -- if we are going to talk about the
 25       programming points that you have just tabled with us --


  1       mentions the format of soap operas which would indicate
  2       to me that you have not made ourselves aware of the
  3       resubmission or the amendments to the programming
  4       proposals of April 8th because soap operas are no
  5       longer part of that schedule.
  6  1794                 So are you aware of the changes that
  7       have been proposed to the scheduling?
  8  1795                 MR. RASALINGAM:  We had a look at it
  9       today on the public record and there were programs that
 10       specifically dealt with Canadian issues or attempted to
 11       deal with Canadian issues, but we have not had as a
 12       network time to evaluate those.
 13  1796                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think
 14       that's important because of the stress you have just
 15       made on whether or not the concept serves the goals of
 16       multiculturalism, both in terms of Canadian programming
 17       which address that point, to some extent, and also your
 18       comment here that foreign programming does not -- how
 19       do you put it -- is not the aim of Canadian
 20       multiculturalism.
 21  1797                 I would like to hear a little more on
 22       that because the case was made that, in fact, the
 23       existence of programming from around the world would,
 24       in fact, affect the way we treat each other, that it
 25       would expand our understanding of the different


  1       cultures of this country and quite often the proposals,
  2       apart from film but certainly the proposals in terms of
  3       public affairs programming was to put that in a
  4       Canadian context with Canadian commentary.
  5  1798                 I didn't hear you describing it quite
  6       that way.  In fact, I hear you questioning that it has
  7       any value.
  8  1799                 So considering the way that it is now
  9       presented, do you still maintain that view, that it has
 10       no impact on multiculturalism in this country?
 11  1800                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  No.  What I said was
 12       you cannot guarantee what impact such programming will
 13       have on Canadian multiculturalism.  We do not know what
 14       the impact will be.  It depends on which programs will
 15       be chosen.
 16  1801                 I heard one of the intervenors today
 17       say that they were going to choose programs on two
 18       criteria.  One, that it wouldn't offend anybody, and
 19       two, that it would be entertaining.  I think that's an
 20       amazing challenge that it's not going to offend anybody
 21       and it's going to be entertaining.  It may be a
 22       difficult goal to achieve.
 23  1802                 So I am not sure what the impact is
 24       of all this programming yet, and that's what we haven't
 25       had the chance to fully assess.  I think we did say


  1       that we liked some of the programming ideas that we saw
  2       briefly today.
  3  1803                 MR. RASALINGAM:  If I may just add to
  4       that, Commissioner?
  5  1804                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Certainly.
  6  1805                 MR. RASALINGAM:  This goes back to my
  7       original statement which is that given that this
  8       principle that you, as a Commission, are setting out to
  9       evaluate, it becomes very critical.
 10  1806                 If the Commission sees fit to have
 11       public consultations across a broad range of spectrum,
 12       it's conceivable that you might get a lot of ethnic
 13       communities, and I know that there is a debate on that
 14       term too today, that they might want soap operas.  We
 15       don't know that.  That's the whole point.
 16  1807                 How do we evaluate that without a
 17       proper consultation where people and the communities
 18       are informed that there is a process, there is an open
 19       call, you have the ability to give your input.
 20  1808                 That's really what we were
 21       addressing.
 22  1809                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Let's not
 23       mix things too much here.
 24  1810                 In terms of programming, whether it
 25       will work or not, I think you would agree with me that


  1       one of the challenges of going into the business of
  2       television is whether something will work or not.  It's
  3       always there, particularly in the area of something
  4       new.
  5  1811                 I am sure when we looked at ethnic
  6       services, and there is an existing policy in terms of
  7       ethnic services, that again people would say:  "It
  8       doesn't exist.  We don't know if it's going to work. 
  9       Why do it?".
 10  1812                 You move forward because the goal,
 11       the objectives of the Broadcasting Act, certainly
 12       require a partnership with a creative community to say
 13       this is how it will be done.  There are many different
 14       ways of achieving these goals.
 15  1813                 So I have a little trouble with the
 16       concept that we resist this because we don't know how
 17       it will work.
 18  1814                 There are a number of other examples
 19       here of programs in the new list which are pretty, in a
 20       sense too, standard television approaches to things. 
 21       The important thing here is to look at the goal, the
 22       motivation, the concept as a whole, whereas you don't
 23       agree which is an approach which says we will look at
 24       the multicultural society in this country and do take
 25       an approach to this which we think will have an impact.


  1  1815                 So from that point of view I think
  2       that what we are talking about here is a system in
  3       place where various projects can come forward and make
  4       a proposal in terms of programming.
  5  1816                 Your point, I think, in terms of a
  6       call or a process was more of a policy point overall,
  7       if I understood you correctly.
  8  1817                 I think this matter was discussed
  9       yesterday as well as today with the applicant in terms
 10       of their position that in looking at the various
 11       carriage options, certainly in the case of certain
 12       comparable situations as they propose with APTN and TVA
 13       going national, this was not a competing application
 14       situation, but presented as a specific concept.
 15  1818                 In fairness, I think that's the way
 16       they are approaching this at this point.
 17  1819                 Those are my questions and if you
 18       have any further comments.
 19  1820                 MR. FRIEDMAN:  I did want to add
 20       something.
 21  1821                 My point was not that viewing films,
 22       foreign films, or viewing foreign broadcasts has no
 23       value.  That's not my point.
 24  1822                 My question is how that relates to
 25       the promotion of Canadians understanding each other


  1       better.  That's a different question.
  2  1823                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's
  3       fine and there are different opinions on that impact. 
  4       In fact, that's the very nature of our discussion on
  5       programming.
  6  1824                 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Those are
  7       my questions.
  8  1825                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  9       much, gentlemen.
 10  1826                 Mr. Secretary?
 11  1827                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 12  1828                 The next appearing intervention will
 13       be presented by Fairchild Television Limited.
 15  1829                 MR. CHAN:  Good evening,
 16       Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission.
 17  1830                 My name is Joe Chan and I am the
 18       President of Fairchild Television Ltd., licensee of
 19       Fairchild Television and Talentvision.
 20  1831                 With me today on my left is Louis
 21       Cheng, our Assistant General Manager.  On my right, 
 22       immediate right, is Connie Sephton, our Manager
 23       Corporate Affairs.  To her right is Rob Malcolmson, our
 24       legal counsel from Goodmans.
 25  1832                 We appreciate the opportunity to


  1       appear before you today.
  2  1833                 We wish to say at the outset that,
  3       like all other ethnic broadcasters who intervened
  4       against the WTM application, we support the Canadian
  5       Association of Broadcasters' submission and
  6       particularly the conclusions reached by the Commission
  7       in Decision CRTC 2001-757.
  8  1834                 We believe that the decision to
  9       licence WTM as a Category 2 digital service together
 10       with appropriate conditions of licence was correct.
 11  1835                 In our remarks today, we would like
 12       to focus on three issues:  WTM's target audience, the
 13       changing ethnic broadcasting landscape and the
 14       vulnerability of Fairchild Television and Talentvision.
 15                         WTM has asked the Commission to
 16       deviate from its established licensing framework and to
 17       grant it a licence with extraordinary carriage rights
 18       which would guarantee it over $40 million in
 19       subscription revenue alone each year.
 20  1836                 Moreover, with its vague nature of
 21       service description, once it has a licence it could
 22       become just about any ethnic programming service.
 23  1837                 WTM maintains it does not target the
 24       same audience as existing ethnic services, that it
 25       targets a mainstream and not an ethnic audience, but we


  1       would like to underscore a point raised at WTM's last
  2       public hearing.   The audience targeted by service is
  3       not necessarily the audience it gets.
  4  1838                 Our experience as an ethnic
  5       broadcaster serving the largest ethnic community in
  6       Canada tells us that a Chinese movie with English or
  7       French subtitles will have much greater appeal to a
  8       Chinese audience than a mainstream audience.
  9  1839                 If the aim of WTM is to bring more
 10       ethnic programming to mainstream audiences, then it
 11       needs to dub its programming into French or English to
 12       effectively act as a bridge between ethnic programming
 13       and mainstream audiences.
 14  1840                 We do not believe that WTM's
 15       substantial amount of non-Canadian programming will
 16       advance the multicultural objectives of the
 17       Broadcasting Act, particularly if this programming is
 18       selected for its importance in other countries rather
 19       than its importance to Canada.
 20  1841                 WTM is asking the Commission to
 21       licence a must-carry analog superstation with a heavy
 22       focus on third-language programming.  To license WTM as
 23       proposed would be a departure from the Commission's
 24       digital only licensing policy.
 25  1842                 In our view, the best approach is not


  1       to issue a call for applications, but a call for
  2       comments prior to any licensing action.  This will give
  3       all interested parties an opportunity to comment on the
  4       concept of a must-carry multicultural service,
  5       including the impact on the ethnic broadcasting
  6       landscape.
  7  1843                 WTM has cited market studies showing
  8       a demand from mainstream audiences for more ethnic
  9       programming.  We submit that if asked whether one would
 10       like more programming choices, most people would say
 11       yes, but not if this would come at the expense of the
 12       programming they already receive.
 13  1844                 Before considering licensing a
 14       national ethnic superstation, let us fully examine what
 15       the impact would be on existing services.
 16  1845                 Let us define the nature of service
 17       and structure it to limit the impact on existing
 18       services and to ensure that the growth of ethnic
 19       broadcasting in not came at the expense of existing
 20       broadcasters.
 21  1846                 MS SEPHTON:  The landscape for ethnic
 22       broadcasting has changed dramatically since the
 23       Commission's 1999 review of the Ethnic Broadcasting
 24       Policy, with 44 new ethnic category 2 digital specialty
 25       and pay services and two new over-the-air multicultural


  1       television stations, Multivan in Vancouver and CFMT-TOO
  2       in Toronto.
  3  1847                 It is important to appreciate the
  4       volume of new Chinese-language programming that could
  5       be introduced into the market by these new ethnic
  6       licensees under their conditions of licence.  Multivan
  7       can broadcast over 1,000 hours of Chinese-language
  8       programming per year in Vancouver.
  9  1848                 Between Rogers' CFMT-TOO and CFMT-TV
 10       in Toronto, it can broadcast almost 2,000 hours of
 11       Chinese-language programming each year.
 12  1849                 This volume of Chinese programming in
 13       Toronto and Vancouver will materially change the market
 14       in terms of available advertising revenue, competition
 15       for program rights and subscriber growth.  The ethnic
 16       broadcasting market requires time to absorb the influx
 17       of new programming that will inevitably come from the
 18       recently licensed over-the-air ethnic services in
 19       Toronto and Vancouver.
 20  1850                 To licence WTM's application as
 21       proposed would create further disruption in an already
 22       marginal Chinese-language television market. WTM's
 23       proposed conditions of licence allow it to broadcast up
 24       to 20 per cent of its non-Canadian programming in any
 25       one non-official language.  If Cantonese and Mandarin


  1       are treated as two distinct languages, this would
  2       translate into a total of 1,310 hours nationwide of new
  3       Chinese-language programming.  This market is already
  4       very well served with two ethnic over-the-air stations
  5       in Toronto, an ethnic over-the-air station and the Shaw
  6       Cable ethnic community channel in Vancouver. which now
  7       broadcasts over 2,000 hours per year of
  8       Chinese-language programming, all in addition to our
  9       national services, Fairchild Television and
 10       Talentvision.
 11  1851                 If WTM maximized its 20 per cent COL
 12       in respect of Asian programming, Fairchild Television
 13       and Talentvision would suffer significant harm.  It is
 14       clear that WTM is targeting third language advertisers. 
 15       WTM is proposing that ethnic advertising be allowed for
 16       up to 15 per cent per broadcast hour.  This would allow
 17       it to broadcast almost four minutes of Cantonese and
 18       Mandarin advertising in any single broadcast hour which
 19       would have a negative impact on Fairchild Television
 20       and Talentvision.  If WTM's target audience really is a
 21       mainstream audience, then we question why it is
 22       targeting ethnic advertising at all?
 23  1852                 MR. CHENG:  With a combined PBIT
 24       margin of 5.42 per cent in the year 2001, which is
 25       significantly lower than the 18.23 per cent English


  1       language specialty television average, Fairchild and
  2       Talentvision are representative of the challenges faced
  3       by ethnic broadcasters who have a limited subscriber
  4       and advertising base.  If advertisers can now purchase
  5       air time within Chinese programming with a potential
  6       viewership reach of 10 million viewers, part of
  7       Fairchild and Talentvision's advertising base will be
  8       substantially eroded.
  9  1853                 Morever, 95 per cent of Fairchild's
 10       subscription revenue comes from 65,000 standalone
 11       subscribers who pay $19.95 per month for the service. 
 12       In addition to the two new over-the-air ethnic
 13       services, if WTM is available as a low cost
 14       Chinese-language programming alternative, Fairchild is
 15       certain to have its premium subscriber base eroded.
 16  1854                 Finally, as part of the basic tier,
 17       with a $40 million financial base in subscriber
 18       revenues alone, it will be almost impossible for
 19       Fairchild and other ethnic broadcasters to compete for
 20       program rights to high quality third language
 21       programming.
 22  1855                 For all of the reasons set out above,
 23       we are proposing a condition of licence, which will
 24       provide a measure of protection to existing national
 25       ethnic specialty services and better ensure that WTM


  1       stays true to its world programming focus without
  2       focusing too heavily on any one world community that is
  3       already served by existing licensees.  The proposed
  4       condition of licence is set out in paragraphs 55 and 56
  5       of our written intervention and is attached hereto.
  6  1856                 MR. CHAN:  As stated earlier, we
  7       oppose the licensing of WTM as a must-carry analog
  8       service.  We believe the Commission got it right when
  9       it denied WTM's request in Decision 2000-393 and again
 10       in Decision 2001-757.  As set out in detail in our
 11       written intervention, there are also a number of
 12       compelling policy reasons why WTM's request should be
 13       denied:
 14  1857                 One, WTM has not met the "exceptional
 15       importance" test in the Commission's current licensing
 16       framework set out in Public Notice 2000-6 and 2000-22
 17  1858                 Two, the WTM application raises
 18       significant concerns with respect to fairness to the
 19       digital services licensed a year ago.  To permit WTM to
 20       jump the queue and receive guaranteed analog carriage
 21       would be patently unfair.
 22  1859                 Three, WTM has compared itself to
 23       TVA, APTN and ArTV submitting it should be afforded
 24       similar carriage rights.  With respect we disagree.  A
 25       review of each of these precedents demonstrates that


  1       much more compelling circumstances were present when
  2       the Commission gave these services special carriage
  3       status.
  4  1860                 We thank you for this opportunity to
  5       appear before you and would be pleased to answer any
  6       questions.
  7  1861                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  8  1862                 Commissioner Pennefather.
  9  1863                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 10       Mr. Chairman.
 11  1864                 Mr. Chan, good evening.
 12  1865                 MR. CHAN:  Good evening.
 13  1866                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Indeed. 
 14       Thank you for being here.  Thank you for your
 15       intervention today and your written intervention.  They
 16       are quite complete.
 17  1867                 When you finished speaking, there is
 18       an attached proposed condition of licence.  Is this
 19       your proposal as per the written --
 20  1868                 MR. CHAN:  That's correct.
 21  1869                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The reason
 22       I am asking is the 10 per cent.  As you know, WTM have
 23       submitted, on April 8, a revised proposal in regards to
 24       limiting non-Canadian programming from any one
 25       particular country.  Does that change your analysis at


  1       all and does your condition of licence address that?
  2  1870                 MR. CHAN:  If I read it correctly
  3       from the August 4 submission, there are actually two
  4       issues.  One is still on the language restriction which
  5       I believe is still a maximum of 20 per cent per
  6       language, and there is another revised condition or
  7       added condition saying that they will have a cap of
  8       10 per cent on programming from a specific country.  I
  9       think, if I read it correctly, it is two different
 10       conditions.
 11  1871                 What we are proposing here, it is in
 12       respect to the 20 per cent per language.  We are asking
 13       a condition of licence sort of to reduce it to 10 per
 14       cent.
 15  1872                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I follow
 16       you.
 17  1873                 MR. MALCOLMSON:  If I could just
 18       interject, Commissioner Pennefather?
 19  1874                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.
 20  1875                 MR. MALCOLMSON:  The condition of
 21       licence you asked about was the condition of licence
 22       pertaining to 10 per cent of the programming
 23       originating from any single country.  That doesn't give
 24       us comfort because there are numerous countries from
 25       which Chinese language programming can come.  It


  1       doesn't come just from China.  So our thought was the
  2       way to tie this down was to put some parameters around
  3       the volume of Chinese-language programming that can
  4       appear on WTM, regardless of what country it
  5       originates from.
  6  1876                 MR. CHAN:  If I may add to that,
  7       Commissioner Pennefather.  The 10 per cent per country,
  8       to us doesn't make any sense.  I will give an example. 
  9       The Chinese language is spoken in China, in Hong Kong,
 10       in Taiwan, in the greater part of Malaysia and
 11       Singapore.  All these countries or all these cities,
 12       they all provide programming in Chinese, so if you just
 13       say 10 per cent per country it doesn't mean that they
 14       could have 10 per cent from China, 10 per cent from
 15       Taiwan or 10 per cent from Malaysia.  So we think that
 16       this proposed condition of licence does not make any
 17       sense to us.  That is why we propose it is better to be
 18       on a per language basis.
 19  1877                 Another example is Spanish.  Spanish
 20       is not only spoken in Spain but is spoken in quite a
 21       number of South American countries.
 22  1878                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 23       for that clarification.
 24  1879                 In looking at the April submission, I
 25       see the list of conditions and I in fact do see a


  1       maximum of 20 per cent non-Canadian.  That is the one
  2       you are referring to in which you were suggesting an
  3       alternative to limit language.
  4  1880                 MR. CHAN:  Correct.
  5  1881                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
  6       I understand your point.
  7  1882                 The other question I had was in the
  8       written intervention as well regarding program rights
  9       and the impact of licensing WTM on the basis they have
 10       proposed on Chinese-language television and access to
 11       program rights.
 12  1883                 Could you expand on that a little bit
 13       and tell us exactly why that would happen in light of
 14       the restrictions that you are proposing on Chinese
 15       language and, secondly, in light of the proposed type
 16       of programming in the Chinese language that WTM is
 17       proposing to air?
 18  1884                 MR. CHAN:  From what I looked at
 19       there, the proposed schedule with the revised one on
 20       August 4, what I can see, especially from the world
 21       programming portion of it, to me I can see a mini
 22       Fairchild TV and a mini Talentvision, probably a mini
 23       Telelatino there too.  The way I see it it is because
 24       they are proposing to have world cinema, which is
 25       movies, they have world comedy and they have world


  1       drama.  All these, in a way, duplicates what we are
  2       doing now, although they are subtitled.  They are
  3       probably going after the same source of program
  4       suppliers at the moment we are soliciting, because at
  5       the moment we are under fierce competition from some
  6       other ethnic television broadcasters in Canada, say,
  7       for example, CMFT, to quote an example, when we are
  8       talking about movies.
  9  1885                 CMFT, first of all, itself, is an
 10       over-the-air station, and WTM is proposing a mandatory
 11       carriage, and with the big broad chest that they are
 12       having, because at the end of it if they are entitled
 13       to a mandatory carriage, then probably they will end up
 14       with a bidding war in terms of licensing of programs.
 15  1886                 This is a major concern we have, that
 16       because of our limited resources, very likely we may
 17       be outbidded in trying to get the best programs we
 18       can get.
 19  1887                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 20       Mr. Chan.
 21  1888                 So you think that even though WTM
 22       have said that their goal is to reach the broad
 23       Canadian audience and your role is to reach the Chinese
 24       Canadian audience with Chinese programming, you would
 25       still be, in effect, competing for the same


  1       programming?
  2  1889                 MR. CHAN:  I do not necessarily agree
  3       with their description of mainstream audience because I
  4       see -- mainstream audience and ethnic audience are not
  5       mutually exclusive.  In this case, they are bringing
  6       in, say for example, Chinese programming, Chinese
  7       movies from Hong Kong or from China, even though they
  8       subtitle, as I said in the presentation, they will be
  9       as attractive to the Chinese community as the
 10       mainstream audience.  That is why, you know, we see
 11       that what they are showing is in fact targeting our
 12       Chinese community as well.
 13  1890                 From the way they present it in their
 14       proposal, they are also imagining that they will be
 15       soliciting a certain degree of ethnic advertisers.  In
 16       other words, they are also going after the same group
 17       of audience and the same group of program suppliers.
 18  1891                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  This is
 19       why you call it a national ethnic superstation?
 20  1892                 MR. CHAN:  Exactly right.  That is
 21       our major concern.
 22  1893                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 23       Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.
 24  1894                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  1895                 Commissioner McKendry.


  1  1896                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I had a
  2       question that relates to what in fact I think you were
  3       just discussing with Commissioner Pennefather. 
  4       Specifically, it is your comments at the bottom of
  5       page 2 of your oral comments.  You say:
  6                              "Our experience as an ethnic
  7                              broadcaster, serving the largest
  8                              ethnic community in Canada,
  9                              tells us that a Chinese movie
 10                              with English or French subtitles
 11                              will have a much greater appeal
 12                              to a Chinese audience than a
 13                              mainstream audience."
 14  1897                 I assume you are speaking from your
 15       experience with your service which is directed towards
 16       a Chinese audience.
 17  1898                 MR. CHAN:  Correct.
 18  1899                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  If the
 19       service, as the applicant is proposing, was marketed to
 20       a mainstream audience, would that not tend to change
 21       your observation here because you are marketing to a
 22       Chinese audience and I understand the applicant to be
 23       marketing to a mainstream audience?
 24  1900                 MR. CHAN:  Again, I am referring back
 25       to the world programming portion of the schedules.  If


  1       they are talking about dramas, if they are talking
  2       about sitcoms, probably we are talking about the same
  3       type of programming with the exception that they are
  4       just subtitled.
  5  1901                 So I do not see any reason why it is
  6       acceptable that, okay, we are using the same drama
  7       series but then we are targeting to mainstream and not
  8       targeting to ethnic.  The ethnic will be watching. 
  9       Especially when they have mandatory carriage, the
 10       ethnic audience will be watching.  If they are free,
 11       naturally they will be watching the same programs.
 12  1902                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Just to make
 13       sure I understand your point, if the applicant was
 14       showing a Chinese-language film, movie, my 
 15       understanding is that the applicant would market that
 16       to a mainstream audience.
 17  1903                 Isn't it logical to assume then that
 18       if they are good marketers they will attract that
 19       mainstream audience?  You are not trying to market to
 20       the mainstream markets.
 21  1904                 MR. CHAN:  Of course because of our
 22       licensing mandate we are not marketing to the
 23       mainstream.  What we are seeing here is while they are
 24       marketing to the mainstream, at the same time it does
 25       not preclude them from marketing to the ethnic


  1       advertisers and ethnic audiences as well, because it is
  2       duplicating what we are doing.  That is what we are
  3       trying to say here.
  4  1905                 MR. CHENG:  If I may add to that.
  5  1906                 I have an example actually of an
  6       over-the-air multicultural station, CFMT.  It is
  7       available in southern Ontario to every cable household
  8       or even, like, any household, I would say every
  9       household.  Right?  Every Saturday they show a Chinese
 10       movie with English subtitles.  They are available to
 11       everyone but they only and they almost exclusively
 12       attract Chinese advertising only.  A Chinese movie with
 13       English subtitles, available to every household and
 14       they attract only Chinese advertising.  I think this is
 15       our point.
 16  1907                 MS SEPHTON:  If I may add to that,
 17       Commissioner?
 18  1908                 Despite the broadcaster's best
 19       intentions, maybe they want to market to the mainstream
 20       audience, we really have to look at what actually the
 21       program is and who gets it, especially if the proposal
 22       is granted for WTM to be carried on basic, then it
 23       reaches all Canadians.
 24  1909                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you.
 25  1910                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I


  1       believe that is all.  Thank you very much.
  2  1911                 MR. CHAN:  Thank you very much.
  3  1912                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
  4  1913                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  5  1914                 The next appearing intervenor will be
  6       Mr. Joseph Volpe.
  8  1915                 MR. VOLPE:  Good evening and bonsoir.
  9  1916                 Mr. Chairman, I have appeared before
 10       such a committee on a couple of other occasions.  I
 11       thought very briefly about submitting a written
 12       statement and I said no, I have made several
 13       interventions, that the points that others will
 14       probably make will be ones that I could reiterate,
 15       probably not as lucidly and without the same passion
 16       that comes with self-interest, legitimate as it
 17       might be.
 18  1917                 I looked instead at statements of the
 19       past and, in particular, two dissenting positions by
 20       Commissioners who sat on a panel in the past in the
 21       last two hearings.  As you can imagine, I would have
 22       agreed with both dissenting opinions, in part, because
 23       they captured the essence of the debate that you have
 24       heard today, the discussion about the merits of
 25       multiculturalism, the impact of the Broadcast Act, the


  1       intention of the Multicultural Act and a general
  2       government policy as seen both through debates in the
  3       House but through decisions of the Commission.
  4  1918                 I thought that the very first of
  5       those dissenting opinions some one year ago captured
  6       that very, very well.  I was convinced that the
  7       Commission would include that as part of its corporate
  8       memory.
  9  1919                 I was particularly impressed by the
 10       last dissenting opinion by Commissioner Martha Wilson
 11       who dissented with the last decision in part because
 12       she said on the previous panel that it gave a negative
 13       decision.  To me it suggested that she had, upon
 14       reflection, looked at all of the elements of the
 15       application, had studied its history and decided that,
 16       notwithstanding the conclusions reached by her
 17       colleagues, the last panel should have granted the
 18       licence as per request.
 19  1920                 I think the panel came a long way. 
 20       It came a long way because in its decision to grant a
 21       licence it accepted the concept that I have heard
 22       during my stay here this afternoon, essentially that
 23       multiculturalism is a fact of life.  It is part and
 24       parcel of Canada.  We no longer have to justify it.  We
 25       might still have trouble describing it but we live it


  1       every day even though here I have heard mostly English,
  2       some French.
  3  1921                 The issue then is not so much whether
  4       the concept is valid, I didn't hear anybody today
  5       suggest that it shouldn't be, but rather the question
  6       of its accessibility, its carriage.  The Commission in
  7       the past I guess wrestled with that too and it decided
  8       that the carriage would be limited by virtue of the
  9       technology available to the applicant.
 10  1922                 I disagreed with the last decision
 11       primarily because of that aspect of the decision.  I
 12       was relieved, I was gratified, I was happy that finally
 13       somebody had accepted the concept, so I don't think
 14       that is ever an issue again nor should it be.
 15  1923                 I was disappointed, but again I guess
 16       because I was disappointed I took pains to address the
 17       issue of accessibility.  With it of course comes the
 18       question of costs which some have raised here before
 19       us, comes a question as well of competition which is a
 20       discussion that we could have, I suppose anybody could
 21       have.  But more than anything else, if the concept is
 22       real, if the Commission was in fact going to accept the
 23       basis of the application, then it could only give it
 24       viability by making it accessible to the largest
 25       possible number of Canadians.


  1  1924                 An intervenor that preceded me said
  2       it in the most lucid and eloquent fashion I could
  3       imagine:  if the technology existed to make it
  4       available to everybody, then that is the technology you
  5       should give, otherwise why live the lie of accepting
  6       the concept?
  7  1925                 I dare say that, and I don't want to
  8       put the words among the lips or in the thoughts of my
  9       colleagues in cabinet, they must have wrestled with
 10       this idea as well.  How can we say one thing, how can
 11       we accept this principle, how can we say that an
 12       applicant that has been before us for well over
 13       11 years, an applicant who has been singular in
 14       responding to the initial call and subsequent calls of
 15       the Commission, how can we accept the application and
 16       its intent and its concepts and not give it the
 17       technology to realize the objectives that we all say we
 18       agree with?
 19  1926                 Of course we have an arm's-length
 20       relationship with the CRTC, and the only thing that one
 21       can do is do what in fact has resulted in us being here
 22       today and yesterday and perhaps even tomorrow.
 23  1927                 I am hoping that in your
 24       consideration you will be able to make the distinctions
 25       that I know you will make.  I don't know whether you


  1       will make the same decision that I would make, but I
  2       know you will make the distinctions.
  3  1928                 Many of the other intervenors this
  4       afternoon have talked about parcelling up the pie.  You
  5       know, God bless them.  I never want to take anything
  6       away from anybody who is an entrepreneur and who has an
  7       idea and who goes out there and tries to capture a
  8       piece of the market, but I don't think it is up to us,
  9       or anybody in fact, to then say that everybody else
 10       should be shut out of that market.  Were that to be the
 11       case, I think that maybe we should do our very best to
 12       eliminate ABC from competing with CBS from competing
 13       with NBC and maybe from selling their programs over so
 14       that CTV, Global, City and on occasion even CBC market
 15       their product in our environment.  No.  I think the
 16       true test of commercial viability will be when the
 17       public makes a decision, as I have made on many
 18       occasions.
 19  1929                 I flick through that converter.  It
 20       has become a little bit of an addiction for me.  It is
 21       the only thing that keeps me from falling asleep when I
 22       turn on the TV.  I make a decision immediately and I
 23       would like to have extra choices.
 24  1930                 I have to tell you that the reason
 25       that I have been before this Commission on several


  1       occasions is because I am not happy with the limits to
  2       choice that the decisions have resulted in in the past. 
  3       I didn't come to debate any individual intervenor, but
  4       there are a couple of points that have been made by
  5       others that struck me.
  6  1931                 In the past I have always -- and this
  7       is very personal and subjective, typically, a
  8       consumer-oriented observation -- I have been attracted
  9       by anything that would give me an insight into
 10       something different from what I saw every day, so if
 11       there was something with subtitles I followed it as
 12       much as I could.  You know, I think I am pretty
 13       discriminating.  Garbage is garbage.  It doesn't matter
 14       what the language is.  You know, the garbage
 15       immediately suffered the same decision as the thumb on
 16       the converter for all other programs.  Were I to make
 17       the decision myself, I don't think I would deprive any
 18       of my viewers of the opportunity to flick that button.
 19  1932                 If this concept is worth supporting,
 20       then it is worth supporting with the appropriate
 21       regulatory and technological means to put it in place.
 22  1933                 Commissioners, I urge you to make
 23       your decision in a way that will result in the granting
 24       of a licence on analog and, you know, initially I said
 25       as well basic and I continue to say that.


  1  1934                 One of the questions that a
  2       Commissioner asked a few moments ago was about whether
  3       the distributors ought to be a part of the negotiations
  4       for ensuring that the carriage would be appropriate.  I
  5       looked at the sixth point and on of Commissioner Wilson
  6       in her dissenting view and I had a different reading of
  7       exceptional importance than two other intervenors have
  8       indicated.
  9  1935                 But, as I say, I know you have read
 10       through that dissenting opinion thoroughly so I am not
 11       going to bore you with reading the justifications that
 12       she elaborated.  I just want to repeat that in my very
 13       patient yet humble opinion, having followed this
 14       application since its inception, the last Commission
 15       finally got it right when it said, you know, this is
 16       something that we need to do.  Where they missed was in
 17       ensuring that it had the appropriate means of
 18       accessibility for all Canadians.  I urge you to provide
 19       that in this hearing.  Thank you.
 20  1936                 MR. LEBEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Volpe,
 21       your time is up.  Sorry.
 22  1937                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You preempted the
 23       secretary.
 24  1938                 Thank you very much, Mr. Volpe, for
 25       your presentation which was clear enough that I don't


  1       have any questions.  I don't know about my colleagues.
  2  1939                 Commissioner McKendry.
  3  1940                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you for
  4       coming and giving us the benefit of your views.
  5  1941                 You talked about the limit to choice
  6       and that is frustrating for you when you surf through
  7       the channels that are available to you.  One of the
  8       difficulties or one of the challenges for us in this is
  9       that there are intervenors who take the opposite view
 10       with respect to this application, that in fact if we
 11       approve the application we will be negatively impacting
 12       their choice.  Just let me quote two sentences from one
 13       of those intervenors.
 14  1942                 It is Intervention No. 69.  This
 15       individual says:
 16                              "I wish to voice my concern that
 17                              this application should not be
 18                              permitted to happen and urge
 19                              CRTC to decline this request. 
 20                              World television should remain a
 21                              Category 2 channel.  I am
 22                              becoming sick and tired of
 23                              having television channels in
 24                              which I have no interest being
 25                              shoved down my throat and those


  1                              that I do want to watch being
  2                              moved into categories that force
  3                              me to pay additional fees to
  4                              obtain them."  (As read)
  5  1943                 So there are some intervenors and
  6       some members of the public who didn't intervene that
  7       undoubtedly would see this as a restriction in choice.
  8  1944                 One of the difficulties for us here,
  9       or one of the challenges for us, is to weigh those
 10       issues or those concerns with the kinds of concerns you
 11       and other intervenors have brought in front of us.  I
 12       wondered if you had any comments on how we balance
 13       these computing views of choice.
 14  1945                 MR. VOLPE:  I think in the not too
 15       distant future that observation by the intervenor might
 16       appear redundant inasmuch as technology is moving ahead
 17       at a fairly quick rate and I think we will find that
 18       competition will appear a lot faster than we can beat
 19       it back.  But to that intervenor and to that question
 20       specifically, I too don't like a lot of the things that
 21       are on television on my dial.
 22  1946                 For example, I can't for the life of
 23       me think how the golf channel enhances my lifestyle or
 24       my sense of being Canadian.  I really don't.  I refuse
 25       to watch CNN but it has another substation.  I didn't


  1       ask for it but there it is.  I didn't ask for the
  2       Shopping Network, but it occupies Channel 19 on my
  3       dial.  I didn't ask for the digital or the video
  4       broadcast schedule, but there it is occupying Channel
  5       No. 5 on my dial.  I guess I am one of those
  6       subscribers who is also dissatisfied with having a lot
  7       of choices that aren't mine.
  8  1947                 I live in Toronto.  It is a wonderful
  9       city.  It has got people from everywhere.  I speak
 10       French.  I understand it very well.  I try to listen to
 11       the news in French.  RDI is one of the stations I go
 12       to.  On occasion, I like to watch TV 5, but I also have
 13       Channel 12 and Channel 13.  The population of
 14       French-speaking Canadians in the Toronto area is
 15       something like 50,000.  This issue of whether we cut
 16       the pie so small that people can't compete and can't
 17       survive is clearly not an issue for the 50,000
 18       potential viewers of four different single language
 19       stations in Toronto.
 20  1948                 I think instead what the intervenor
 21       might recognize is that the more opportunities for
 22       expression there are the more likely those advertising
 23       dollars are to appear.  In other words, the pie is not
 24       limited, it grows.  To him or to them and to you, I
 25       would point out the example of ONG Media advertising. 


  1       I don't know whether you are familiar with it.  It is
  2       beginning to make its way here in Ottawa.  Do you know
  3       what it is?  It is outdoor garbage advertising.  It has
  4       revolutionized the way that garbage is collected in
  5       cities in Canada and it has done so marvellously well.
  6  1949                 Where did they get that additional
  7       money?  They got it because the traditional advertisers
  8       said:  You know, what; I would like to have an
  9       advertising on that garbage box there for a month
 10       rather than in a newspaper for one day or on radio or
 11       on television for a 30-second clip.  Have those
 12       advertising dollars dried up for radio, television and
 13       newspapers?  No.  All you have to do is examine what is
 14       happening in the community newspaper market.  Take a
 15       look, as one of the intervenors indicated, at what is
 16       happening to the market for advertising on some of the
 17       ethnic television stations.  It keeps growing.  The
 18       national producers of product are looking at some of
 19       these places and gearing themselves to that market.
 20  1950                 I think this is sort of a Chicken
 21       Little approach.  I'm sorry; I don't mean to be
 22       critical of them, but the market seems to be expanding
 23       all of the time so if it is expanding and you are
 24       getting access to it, then you can't make the claim
 25       that somebody is going to cut you out of your fair


  1       share.  What is the public's fair share?
  2  1951                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you
  3       very much.
  4  1952                 MR. VOLPE:  Thank you.
  5  1953                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
  6       Mr. Volpe.
  7  1954                 Mr. Secretary, how many more
  8       appearing intervenors?
  9  1955                 MR. LEBEL:  Four more appearing,
 10       Mr. Chairman.
 11  1956                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a
 12       break now for 15 minutes and resume at 6:30.  Thank
 13       you.
 14       --- Upon recessing at 1815 / Suspension à 1815
 15       --- Upon resuming at 1835 / Reprise à 1835
 16  1957                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  A
 17       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
 18  1958                 Mr. Secretary, would you summon the
 19       next intervenor, please.
 20  1959                 MR. LEBEL:  You will be happy to know
 21       that there are only two left.  The next one will be
 22       Mr. Ken Stewart.
 23  1960                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  1961                 MR. STEWART:  Mr. Chairman, Members


  1       of the Commission, thank you for the opportunity to
  2       make this presentation on behalf of my company, GAPC
  3       Entertainment, myself and my family.
  4  1962                 I believe we are here today because
  5       there are those who feel creating, reflecting and
  6       delivering cultural diversity is important, important
  7       to all Canadians, important enough to warrant this
  8       hearing again.
  9  1963                 For over 10 years WTM has been coming
 10       before this Commission to propose the same
 11       revolutionary concept for a multicultural television
 12       service that is unique, visionary and exceptional.
 13  1964                 Throughout the process WTM has
 14       maintained that the service must be able to be accessed
 15       by most if not all Canadians.  Carriage and delivery
 16       has been as much a part of their submissions as has
 17       programming.
 18  1965                 It is time that Canadians have the
 19       opportunity to embrace culturally diverse programming
 20       that is delivered in such a way that the barrier of
 21       language is overcome, resulting in Canadians having the
 22       ability and the choice to hear, understand and
 23       appreciate the diverse world which we are a part of. 
 24       As you can imagine this is even more critical in
 25       today's world.


  1  1966                 Make no mistake, the proposed
  2       programming by WTM is focused on the needs, interests,
  3       circumstances and aspirations of all Canadians
  4       regardless of their race, religion or background.
  5  1967                 Canadians are a culturally diverse
  6       people, and as time goes on this diversity will
  7       continue to grow and must flower.
  8  1968                 Canadian businesses rely more and
  9       more on exporting their goods and services. Today's
 10       business leaders and those of tomorrow must have an
 11       understanding and an appreciation of their customers,
 12       their clients and their staff.
 13  1969                 Canadians need to and are interested
 14       in appreciating and understanding the world we live in,
 15       its peoples and their circumstances.
 16  1970                 Many Canadians feel that we are a
 17       tolerant society, that we indeed are very worldly and
 18       culturally sensitive and thus the role of our
 19       traditional broadcasters.  Their news services and
 20       their programming, with ongoing tweaking, will achieve
 21       the goals of the Broadcasting Act, and if we give some
 22       room to the ethnic broadcasters we will be in fact
 23       doing what is needed.
 24  1971                 I and many others actually disagree
 25       and on a day-to-day basis we witness the lack of


  1       understanding in our culture and in our society.
  2  1972                 Although there are differences in the
  3       reportage of the main broadcasters, they are subtle. 
  4       Canadians lack the opportunity and the right to access
  5       news and information as well as programming from
  6       outside North America.
  7  1973                 Canadians do have the right to be
  8       able to receive information and programming that is not
  9       tailored for a demographic meltdown of a marketer's
 10       perception of the generic Canadian.
 11  1974                 What WTM proposes is not ethnic
 12       broadcasting.  Multicultural programming is not focused
 13       on bringing one specific message or one story to one
 14       group at one time.  Multicultural programming reaches
 15       out to a diverse audience with diverse content and
 16       allows for different perspectives to be heard which in
 17       turn promotes understanding of these perspectives.
 18  1975                 As a country that prides itself on
 19       tolerance, we do not reflect the views and opinions and
 20       underlying culture and perspective of all of our
 21       citizens, and I do not believe that this can or should
 22       be done by our main broadcasters.  But Canadians do
 23       have a right to have access to this content and these
 24       different perspectives so that we can continue to grow
 25       as a nation, promoting understanding and tolerance.


  1  1976                 The other day I came across an
  2       article in the Ottawa Citizen.  A mother with her young
  3       child was in a grocery store at the check out counter
  4       and was asked, "How much did she cost" -- the mother
  5       Caucasian, the daughter Asian.  It was not the first
  6       time the mother had been asked that question.
  7  1977                 In the article, that contained other
  8       examples of intolerance and ignorance, the
  9       author/mother went on to say:
 10                              "For all the Liberals who say
 11                              that race shouldn't matter, or
 12                              that we should try to live in a
 13                              world where race doesn't exist,
 14                              that we should be colour-blind,
 15                              you know better.  You know that
 16                              we are living with blinders on
 17                              or ear plugs in."
 18  1978                 It is my belief that a service such
 19       as WTM will give an important perspective that cannot
 20       and is not being addressed by today's broadcasters, a
 21       perspective that must be accessible to all Canadians,
 22       that is of such a significant and exceptional
 23       importance that it warrants basic carriage.
 24  1979                 As has been pointed out, our system
 25       must maximize choice, I wonder if this means that I can


  1       choose to watch American programming on American
  2       channels or watch American programming on Canadian
  3       channels.  Both the CCTA and Mr. Valanti wish to offer
  4       choice and feel strongly that only the consumer should
  5       choose, that we need not regulate our broadcasting
  6       system.
  7  1980                 But inherent in the concept of choice
  8       and the idea of maximizing choice lies the fact that
  9       you must have diversity:  diversity of ownership,
 10       diversity of editorial perspective, diversity of
 11       culture and diversity of choice.
 12  1981                 I do not want to give up watching
 13       "The West Wing" but I do not need it on two or more
 14       channels of basic cable at the same time.
 15  1982                 I and my family are Muslim.  My wife
 16       is Egyptian born.  My neighbours on one side are from
 17       Southern India, on the other side our neighbours are
 18       from England, second generation.  I am from Montreal
 19       and the great, great grandson of the first
 20       Canadian-born Prime Minister.
 21  1983                 As the line in the commercial goes: 
 22       We are Canadian.
 23  1984                 The production company that I have
 24       run for the past 18 years has produced programming for
 25       History, CBC, Discovery, Vision and others.  On a daily


  1       basis we pitch programming ideas to broadcasters.  Our
  2       pitches, not our ideas, lack cultural diversity because
  3       of the market not because of the ideas, or those ideas,
  4       stories or content.
  5  1985                 Broadcasters today say:  that's a
  6       good idea, but it will be of little interest to our
  7       viewers, our demographic; what's the Canadian angle? We
  8       must let flourish a venue that will challenge and
  9       change this, that will create and strengthen the
 10       appetite Canadians will and must have for diversity
 11       programming.
 12  1986                 It is our duty to create that hunger,
 13       that thirst for knowledge that will take Canadians
 14       beyond the perspectives of their own backyard.
 15       Canadians must and will see the importance and
 16       relevance to themselves and new generations of
 17       multicultural programming.  We must not fail them in
 18       this.
 19  1987                 WTM will offer a service that is of
 20       such an importance to warrant the CRTC to grant it the
 21       licence and carriage it has requested.  The continued
 22       pressure and rejection have not swayed WTM's leadership
 23       and vision.  World Télémonde has stayed the course.  It
 24       has pursued its vision relentlessly and we should all
 25       embrace it and appreciate that its success will lead to


  1       our collective success as a nation.
  2  1988                 I thank you for this opportunity to
  3       speak.  Thank you.
  4  1989                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McKendry.
  5  1990                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Just looking
  6       on page 4 of your comments, you note that your
  7       production company has produced programming for
  8       History, CBC and so on, and "On a daily basis we pitch
  9       programming ideas to broadcasters."  I am quoting from
 10       your oral comments.  You say:
 11                              "Our pitches, not our ideas,
 12                              lack cultural diversity because
 13                              of the market not because of the
 14                              ideas, stories or content."
 15  1991                 I guess I just want to understand
 16       this.  The conventional broadcasters or the specialty
 17       broadcasters that you are dealing with aren't buying
 18       stories and productions that have cultural diversity
 19       inherent in them.  Is that what you are saying?
 20  1992                 MR. STEWART:  Yes.  I think there is
 21       not the window of opportunity for programs coming about
 22       diverse cultures in Canada, about diverse cultures
 23       outside of Canada that have a Canadian perspective.  We
 24       work with multicultural, independent producers who are
 25       developing ideas and stories, and the windows for us,


  1       the broadcasters -- the opportunities for us are very
  2       limited because the broadcasters, in terms of what they
  3       wish to -- how they judge their audience and how they
  4       judge their viewers and what their viewers specifically
  5       want to see do not coincide with a lot of programming
  6       that we are putting forth that is usually factual in
  7       nature but has a multicultural aspect about it.
  8  1993                 There are not a lot of opportunities
  9       to put forward this kind of programming.
 10  1994                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Given the
 11       emergence and the existence of a multicultural society
 12       that we live in, what accounts for the broadcasters
 13       that you deal with not wanting to reflect that in their
 14       programs?
 15  1995                 MR. STEWART:  I think their
 16       programming schedule is focused less on factual
 17       programming, focused more on entertainment, focused on
 18       prime time U.S. product and they have little room in
 19       their schedules.  Their schedules don't allow for the
 20       amount of potential ideas and content and stories that
 21       are out there that are coming forth from all Canadians
 22       but Canadians of diverse backgrounds and multicultural
 23       backgrounds.
 24  1996                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I take it,
 25       should we licence the applicant as they are requesting


  1       to be licensed, there would be no difficulty from your
  2       perspective in satisfying the Canadian-produced content
  3       that they are forecasting.
  4  1997                 MR. STEWART:  Absolutely not.  I
  5       think there is a wealth of content and there is a
  6       growing industry.  Specialty channels have certainly
  7       helped support that growth in that industry, but the
  8       important thing about carriage and with respect to
  9       World Télémonde is that if we are going to produce
 10       quality programming, we have to have the licence fees
 11       that will allow us to do so.  A designation of service
 12       like WTM to where it had been put, a tier two level,
 13       digital level, will see licence fees that will not
 14       support in any way Canadian production.
 15  1998                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thanks very
 16       much.  Thank you for staying so late.
 17  1999                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 18       much, Mr. Stewart.  My history being as poor as it is,
 19       I am still trying to figure out who your great, great
 20       grandfather is.
 21  2000                 MR. STEWART:  That is always the
 22       challenge.  That would be John Abbott.
 23  2001                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you
 24       very much.
 25  2002                 Mr. Secretary.


  1  2003                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  2  2004                 The last appearing intervention will
  3       be presented by the Canadian Ethnocultural Council. 
  4       Appearing on behalf of the Council, Anna Chiappa and
  5       George Frajkor.
  6  2005                 Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would
  7       like to indicate that Intervenors Nos. 18 and 19 on the
  8       agenda have elected not to appear at the public
  9       hearing.  Their intervention will remain on the record
 10       as non-appearing.
 11  2006                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 13  2007                 MS CHIAPPA:  Mr. Chairman, Members of
 14       the Commission, thank you very much for giving us this
 15       opportunity to be here.  Unfortunately, Mr. Hagopian
 16       had to take his flight back to Toronto and regrets not
 17       being able to speak to you.
 18  2008                 I am the Executive Director of the
 19       organization.  I am accompanied by George Frajkor, who
 20       is Chairman of the Immigration Committee, and he is
 21       also a producer of the "Slovak Spectrum", which is a
 22       program with Rogers Cable here in Ottawa.
 23  2009                 The CEC, the Canadian Ethnocultural
 24       Council, is a national umbrella organization which
 25       represents over 30 national ethnocultural groups


  1       throughout Canada.  Our mandate is to promote
  2       understanding and acceptance of the multicultural
  3       reality of Canada.  It is a reality which has become a
  4       fact of life and part of our Canadian identity.
  5  2010                 The most recent poll which shows this
  6       was conducted by Environics for the Association for
  7       Canadian Studies.  This was conducted just a couple of
  8       months ago.  Seventy-seven per cent of Canadians who
  9       were polled support the idea that multiculturalism
 10       promotes the sharing of common values.  Also
 11       significant about that is 86 per cent of Quebecers feel
 12       the same way.
 13  2011                 The reality is we believe that
 14       Canadians are ready for what WTM is offering, and that
 15       is a national, multicultural TV station.  What the
 16       polls show is that multiculturalism is not just about
 17       specialty communities, it is not limited to
 18       ethnocultural communities, but is now considered part
 19       of the mainstream.
 20  2012                 Our support for WTM goes back since
 21       their first application.  They appeared before our
 22       board and before our executive and subsequently we have
 23       gone on record on many occasions to support broader
 24       access and availability to broadcasting and programming
 25       which is reflective of the multicultural reality and


  1       diversity of Canada.  We believe that this is in
  2       keeping with Canada's Multicultural and Broadcasting
  3       Act and we support the idea of national programming
  4       which reflects this vision.
  5  2013                 As we stated last year in our
  6       intervention, we still consider WTM to be the missing
  7       component in the Broadcasting Act's mission statement,
  8       similar to the Television Northern Canada Incorporated. 
  9       The WTM request should be regarded as equally important
 10       and as a matter of public interest.  It should be
 11       available and easily accessible across the country. 
 12       The granting of a digital licence does not do this.
 13  2014                 WTM has two goals.  One is to bring
 14       Canadians belonging to a particular ethnocultural group
 15       the living culture of their ancestral homeland as well
 16       as to bring them news and documentaries valuable to
 17       them in today's world and in Canada.  The second is to
 18       give Canadians of all backgrounds exposure to the life,
 19       thoughts and actions of the rest of the world as
 20       expressed in the artistic and realistic creations of
 21       the countries of the world themselves.
 22  2015                 The programs being offered will have
 23       interest to many viewers, not just a select specialty
 24       group.  "World Journal", "Eye on Canada" and "Day and
 25       Night" are examples of such programming.  Canadians


  1       have a high degree of interest in the world around them
  2       and these programs will offer a view which at the
  3       current time is limited if not unavailable.
  4  2016                 You have certainly heard today that
  5       Canada's constitution recognizes the realities that
  6       this is a multicultural nation.  Such recognition we
  7       feel is meaningless unless it goes beyond policy and is
  8       implemented in programming.  We feel it is a matter of
  9       right that multilingual and multicultural broadcast
 10       outlets throughout Canada are available throughout
 11       Canada at the local, regional and national levels.
 12  2017                 WTM is the first application to offer
 13       multicultural service at the national level.  We
 14       applaud the CRTC's decisions in the past which ave
 15       enabled programming at the local or regional level.  As
 16       we have stated, they should continue to exist but there
 17       also must be a connection to communities across the
 18       country, to the mosaic of cultures which are part of
 19       this country no matter where they are.  So programs
 20       such as "Port of Entry", "Intercom" and "Rabble" will
 21       offer opportunity for ways for diverse communities to
 22       share their perspective beyond their own cultural
 23       communities.
 24  2018                 We also believe that world
 25       programming will be a welcomed choice to many viewers


  1       who want to see more than the current selection of
  2       mostly American programming.  Where once we had the
  3       disadvantage of geography, because I think we are in a
  4       new era now, in today's world of accessible
  5       communication, we no longer have to be at the mercy of
  6       our powerful neighbour whose cultural products dominate
  7       our film, publishing and broadcasting industries.
  8  2019                 Our struggle has been to come up with
  9       an identity that has been, in relation to the United
 10       States, to distinguish ourselves from the American
 11       dominant culture.  If Canada is to develop its own
 12       distinctive identity, separate from the Americans, it
 13       must encourage all cultures to contribute to this new
 14       identity and a national service such as WTM will be the
 15       focus by which this can be done.
 16  2020                 What WTM has to offer can no longer
 17       be considered simply a niche or specialty market.  It
 18       is a service for a general market which is outpacing
 19       the policy makers and, to a great extent, the corporate
 20       communications world.  Technology is operating and
 21       increasing at an incredible pace and we have to keep up
 22       with it.
 23  2021                 Just as computers and the worldwide
 24       web have allowed individuals to surf the world and see
 25       it on screen, television must do the same.  The world


  1       looks at Canada as being open and diverse and as such
  2       Canadian media should promote an open and diverse
  3       format reflective of today's technology reality.
  4  2022                 Our country has provided much
  5       international leadership in the area of human rights. 
  6       Our charter of rights and freedoms, for example, is
  7       held in high regard and is revered internationally.  We
  8       have an opportunity in the field of communication to
  9       offer similar leadership, a new model of television
 10       viewing which is in keeping with a new world of
 11       globalization, of cultural and communications synergy.
 12  2023                 The CRTC is faced with this
 13       reconsideration which promises Canadians a great deal
 14       more than warmed-over fiction and non-fiction from one
 15       programming source south of the border.  The CRTC must
 16       weigh the application in light of the aims of the
 17       Broadcasting Act, which have hardly changed since the
 18       dawn of broadcasting in the 1920s.  As well, it must
 19       weigh the application in light of the Canadian
 20       constitution which stipulates that the multicultural
 21       reality of Canada must be recognized.
 22  2024                 The CRTC has recognized the value of
 23       this service by granting a digital licence.  Now it has
 24       to recognize what WTM will bring to all Canadians and
 25       to the world by making this service available to all.


  1  2025                 I would just like to repeat the words
  2       of Michael McCabe, President and CEO of the Canadian
  3       Association of Broadcasters that we quoted last year. 
  4       I think it is worth merit repeating again this year:
  5                              "Until we all move beyond words
  6                              towards action, we risk losing
  7                              our ability to provide our
  8                              viewers and listeners at home
  9                              with a reflection of themselves
 10                              and their culture and our
 11                              international audience with a
 12                              sense of who we are and what is
 13                              important to us.  Face cultural
 14                              homogenization or fight for
 15                              cultural diversity?  There
 16                              should be no question."
 17  2026                 By offering the WTM analog service to
 18       all of the Canadian public, we can take the right step
 19       to creating the kind of diversity which Mr. McCabe is
 20       proposing.  We urge you to support the request for
 21       basic carriage.
 22  2027                 Thank you.
 23  2028                 MR. FRAJKOR:  Thank you for the
 24       privilege of appearing once again before this
 25       Commission.


  1  2029                 As a former journalist, I am somewhat
  2       familiar with television programming.  I was with CTV
  3       as their bureau chief in Montreal and with the Canadian
  4       Broadcasting Corporation for quite a length of time
  5       before I went to Carleton University to teach
  6       journalism, television journalism specifically, so I
  7       think I have some right to comment on this.
  8  2030                 In fact, if I am not mistaken, I
  9       think the first time I was ever introduced to
 10       Commissioner Pennefather was her first job at publicity
 11       at CFCF-TV when I was at CTV there.  Nice to see that
 12       she has risen in the world higher than most of us.
 13  2031                 I do wish to of course, like a
 14       journalist, declare a conflict of interest.  I appeared
 15       before this panel once on behalf of the Canadian
 16       Ethnocultural Council.  I appeared before it the second
 17       time in association with WTM, in association with their
 18       board, making the case for them, so it is quite clear
 19       that I am directly involved in this.  I am not going to
 20       repeat the arguments that WTM has made or that the
 21       Canadian Ethnocultural Council has made.
 22  2032                 I do want to make a few comments. 
 23       One is the lack in Canada of the kind of universal
 24       spectrum programming that one finds in even some of the
 25       most small countries of east Europe.


  1  2033                 Slovenia has a population of slightly
  2       more than 2 million people.  In Slovenia you can get
  3       Italian programming daily, Hungarian programming,
  4       Austrian programming, Croatian programming and even
  5       Polish programming.
  6  2034                 Similarly, in Slovakia, where I also
  7       did some teaching of television journalism, it is a
  8       country with a population of just over $5 million and
  9       you can get Ukrainian programming, Russian programming,
 10       Polish programming, Hungarian programming, German
 11       programming and of course the ubiquitous CNN and Sky
 12       Channel.  Those kind of resources are available in
 13       countries that have a population much, much less than
 14       Canada.  I think that it is time that Canada, through
 15       WTM, should be exposed to those same kind of resources.
 16  2035                 I do not believe, and I think any
 17       journalist will agree, that limiting your sources of
 18       information and your sources of entertainment is
 19       somehow going to expand your mind or is somehow going
 20       to make us more universally conscious or less Canadian
 21       or whatever.  I don't believe there is a contradiction
 22       between promoting Canadian programming and bringing in
 23       sources of programming from other countries.  I don't
 24       believe that at all.  I think we become better
 25       Canadians and will make better Canadian programs if we


  1       have access to sources of entertainment and news and
  2       current affairs from all over the world rather than
  3       from a few sources.  I think the expansion of sources
  4       is essential and I think that is what WTM is all about.
  5  2036                 I doubt that many people would
  6       disagree with that.
  7  2037                 MR. LEBEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Frajkor,
  8       your time is up.
  9  2038                 MR. FRAJKOR:  Excuse me.  Time is up. 
 10       Thank you.
 11  2039                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have no
 12       questions other than to say recruiting audiences,
 13       excuse my French, were still a lot of fun even though
 14       it was a long time ago.
 15  2040                 I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
 16  2041                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I just had
 17       one question.
 18  2042                 You referred in your comments to the
 19       nationally accessible broadcasting system.  I take it
 20       that is an important dimension of your concerns about
 21       the availability of multicultural television
 22       programming is that it be nationally accessible.  Did I
 23       understand that correctly?
 24  2043                 MR. FRAJKOR:  That is correct.  This
 25       is the only proposal made to this Commission for a


  1       national multicultural type of programming.
  2  2044                 I am familiar with ethnic
  3       programming.  I am the co-producer of an ethnic program
  4       here in Ottawa, so I know that it is a small market and
  5       it is intended for a limited audience.  This is not. 
  6       This is intended for all Canadians and I think that is
  7       a good idea.
  8  2045                 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you. 
  9       That was the only question I had.
 10  2046                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 11       for your patience and for your presentation.
 12  2047                 Mr. Secretary.
 13  2048                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 14       We have now reached Phase III of the application.  In
 15       this phase we do grant 10 minutes to WTM to respond to
 16       all the interventions submitted to the application.
 17  2049                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Mr. Secretary, I think
 18       that will be 20 minutes because you owe me 10 minutes
 19       from our opening presentation.
 20  2050                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are almost at
 21       peak time, Mr. Iannuzzi.
 22       --- Laughter / Rires
 23       REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
 24  2051                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Mr. Chairman, since we
 25       have reached the witching hour, we will be brief.


  1  2052                 All we want to say in rebuttal is
  2       that the arguments, pro and con, are clearly set out in
  3       the submissions, the interventions and our replies
  4       before you.
  5  2053                 We wish to take this opportunity to
  6       thank you, Commissioners, for your questions.  They
  7       were quite deep and we hope we gave you all of the
  8       answers.  Those that we haven't we will be sending them
  9       to you shortly.
 10  2054                 We will file the revised business
 11       plan you requested on or before May 20.
 12  2055                 What can we say at this point but bon
 13       weekend.
 14  2056                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Counsel.
 15  2057                 MR. HOWARD:  Just one moment. 
 16       Late-breaking news.
 17       --- Pause
 18  2058                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 19  2059                 In your replies you made a number of
 20       statements, strong statements, you know, we would never
 21       do this, we would never do that, and this type of
 22       thing.  Rather than going through them all
 23       individually, could I ask you, with regard to the
 24       statements of that type, would you accept conditions of
 25       licence to that effect?


  1  2060                 MR. MARCHANT:  In principle, yes,
  2       although as a solicitor you will appreciate I would
  3       like to be a little bit more specific.
  4  2061                 MR. HOWARD:  Okay.  I don't want to
  5       go through them all but it would be statements such as, 
  6       "It will never offer ethnic programming as defined by
  7       the CRTC, i.e., programming that is directed.  While
  8       there may be occasional subtitle third language
  9       advertised on WTM at the request of a national or major
 10       advertiser, WTM will never:  (a), (b)...", those types
 11       of statements.
 12  2062                 MR. MARCHANT:  Counsel, if you are
 13       referring specifically to the list of items from which
 14       you are reading which is at the end of the reply to the
 15       ethnic specialty interventions the answer is yes.
 16  2063                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 17  2064                 I take it that would also be with
 18       regard to the 10 per cent of its programming in a
 19       single third language in any month.  I think the
 20       point made by one of the intervenors was that Chinese,
 21       if I can put it that way, would obviously consist of a
 22       great number of languages and they ought not to be
 23       lumped together.  Is that your understanding of what
 24       you are saying there?
 25  2065                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.


  1  2066                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
  2  2067                 MR. IANNUZZI:  There is also one
  3       particular point that I wanted to add on top of that
  4       that we carried out there.  It is that there would also
  5       be a minimum of 15 languages in any one month and a
  6       minimum of 20 countries in any one month.  By doing
  7       this we are showing that there is absolutely no way
  8       that even with a 10 per cent would we do that.
  9  2068                 Although we heard today from TLN that
 10       even the 10 per cent we are talking about here, they
 11       seem to take exception to it.
 12  2069                 What I take exception to is the fact
 13       that Telelatino was only here this week asking for an
 14       increase in 10 per cent of the English language and
 15       therefore depriving their original third language
 16       ethnic groups of 10 per cent either Italian or English.
 17  2070                 MR. MARCHANT:  Spanish.
 18  2071                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 19  2072                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is Spanish, I
 20       think.  Right?  Italian or Spanish, you meant?
 21  2073                 MR. IANNUZZI:  That's right.  What
 22       did I say?
 23  2074                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Italian or English.
 24       --- Off microphone / Hors microphone
 25  2075                 MR. HOWARD:  You have stated as one


  1       of the things that you would adhere to is that you
  2       would run no more than 15 per cent of the advertising
  3       minutes in an hour in a third language.  If the
  4       Commission decided that you should not do any third
  5       language programming whatsoever, what would be the
  6       impact on your revenue, let's say, in year one?
  7  2076                 MR. MARCHANT:  You said no third
  8       language programming.  I take it, counsel, you meant
  9       third language advertising.
 10  2077                 MR. HOWARD:  Sorry.  What did I say?
 11  2078                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Programming.
 12  2079                 MR. HOWARD:  Programming.  I'm sorry. 
 13       Advertising.  It's late.  It's late.
 14       --- Laughter / Rires
 15  2080                 MR. IANNUZZI:  The only reason we
 16       left that it in there -- I mean it was easy enough to
 17       say we don't want to do that because we know exactly
 18       what we do want to do.
 19  2081                 The fact is that there are
 20       sometimes -- that the advertiser himself, it may be an
 21       agency, IBM, that had that whole series on their
 22       Internet and so on.  These were all commercials that
 23       were produced in other countries and were run on
 24       conventional television, so they were done in a third
 25       language.  We are just saying there is a small


  1       percentage that would come primarily from the
  2       advertisers.
  3  2082                 MR. HOWARD:  What would be the impact
  4       on your revenues in year one if you couldn't run that
  5       type of advertising?
  6  2083                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I don't know.  I would
  7       think it would be small enough.  I mean, I can say it
  8       could be a condition of licence that we wouldn't, but
  9       in the event if there was a major account, a national
 10       brewery or whatever, I say we would come back to the
 11       Commission and ask if we could have an exception
 12       on that.
 13  2084                 MR. JOHNSTON:  Could I just add? 
 14       There was a time when Nortel used to run ads around the
 15       country.  It doesn't do it too often any more.
 16  2085                 MR. IANNUZZI:  It can't afford it.
 17  2086                 MR. JOHNSTON:  That's right.
 18  2087                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  There was a time
 19       when Nortel traded at $120 --
 20  2088                 MR. JOHNSTON:  I remember those days
 21       too.
 22       --- Laughter / Rires
 23  2089                 MR. HOWARD:  Please go ahead.
 24  2090                 MR. JOHNSTON:  They did a lot of
 25       advertising that was really for the whole world and


  1       they used a lot of different languages.  We wouldn't
  2       want to necessarily, although it wouldn't matter today,
  3       we would not necessarily have wanted to lose Nortel.
  4  2091                 MR. HOWARD:  That's fine.
  5  2092                 MR. MARCHANT:  I apologize for three
  6       of us giving answers because I think this is actually a
  7       slightly more important issue than the 15 per cent the
  8       lateness of the hour would indicate.
  9  2093                 I think it is also important to us
 10       that advertising is a very important part of the
 11       Canadian broadcasting system.  Advertisers are a
 12       significant component of support for it.  We know that
 13       they want outlets for their advertising and the venues
 14       and the settings and the programming that suits them. 
 15       So there is that element to it that I would add.
 16  2094                 MR. HOWARD:  So if there were such a
 17       condition of licence that you could not do third
 18       language advertising, would you still accept the
 19       licence?
 20  2095                 MR. IANNUZZI:  Of course.  I mean,
 21       there is reasonableness and then there is --
 22  2096                 The question is:  why are we doing
 23       this?  We are slowly being penalized for things that
 24       may have and may not have an impact on others.  I would
 25       rather lower the level to say maybe even 10 per cent,


  1       but just for the fact that there is that slight edge of
  2       the wedge that is important to some advertisers who
  3       have a right to access to every channel.
  4  2097                 MR. HOWARD:  With regard to the
  5       described video, you stated that you would accept the
  6       conditions that Vision currently has.  You cited it by
  7       decision number but it is the Vision decision.
  8  2098                 MR. IANNUZZI:  It is the same --
  9  2099                 MR. HOWARD:  Yes.  In the Vision
 10       decision there is no actual hours set out.  There is an
 11       expectation of so many hours.  Was there any reason why
 12       you don't want to commit to a certain number of hours
 13       and you chose the expectation route?
 14  2100                 MR. MARCHANT:  When the question
 15       arose, we sought advice from the expert on this within
 16       our team who has since had to leave.  He said, why
 17       don't we do what was -- just to prove provision and
 18       showed us the paragraph and we thought -- you know,
 19       from the CRTC's decision.  We were simply trying to --
 20       pardon me.
 21       --- Pause
 22  2101                 MR. MARCHANT:  Our intention was
 23       simply to have a constructive response based on a
 24       Commission precedent.  I guess I would say that we are
 25       not advancing it simply because we want to say we will


  1       do it.  We plan to do it.
  2  2102                 It also bears directly on this
  3       question that the Chairman raised about the use of the
  4       SAP.  We need it for that reason.
  5  2103                 MR. HOWARD:  Yes.  I understand that.
  6  2104                 I was thinking, however that the
  7       Global and CTV decisions are a little more stringent. 
  8       Perhaps as part of the material you are going to file,
  9       could you take a look at those and get back to us as to
 10       whether or not they might be appropriate?
 11  2105                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 12  2106                 MR. HOWARD:  With regard to this
 13       material, there seems to be a fair amount I must admit,
 14       could you file that material -- I think you have said
 15       the 20th for the projections, so let's say all the
 16       material by the 20th and serve it upon the intervenors
 17       and the intervenors will have five days from that time
 18       to make their comments on your material?
 19  2107                 MR. MARCHANT:  Yes.
 20  2108                 MR. HOWARD:  Great.
 21  2109                 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  That's all
 22       my questions.
 23  2110                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 24  2111                 Mr. Iannuzzi, I would normally ask
 25       you whether you had anything to add but I am kind of


  1       hesitant to do that.
  2       --- Laughter / Rires
  3  2112                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you do have
  4       anything to add please add it --
  5  2113                 MR. IANNUZZI:  I will send it in on
  6       the 20th.
  7  2114                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  8  2115                 This hearing is now adjourned.  Thank
  9       you very much.
 10       --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1910 /
 11           L'audience se termine à 1910

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