ARCHIVED -  Transcript / Transcription - Gatineau, Quebec - 2002-05-07

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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:


HELD AT:                               TENUE À:

Conference Centre                      Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                             Portage IV
Outaouais Room                         Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                       Gatineau (Québec)

May 7, 2002                            Le 7 mai 2002

                           Volume 2


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription



Charles Dalfen                     Chairperson / Président
Andrée Wylie                       Commissioner / Conseillère
Cindy Grauer                       Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrew Cardozo                     Commissioner / Conseiller
Stuart Langford                    Commissioner / Conseiller


William Howard                     Legal Counsel /
Leanne Bennett                     Conseillers juridiques
Michael McWhinney                  Hearing Coordinator  /
                                   Coordonnateur de l'audience
Pierre LeBel                       Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT:                           TENUE À:

Conference Centre                  Centre de Conférences
Portage IV                         Portage IV
Outaouais Room                     Salle Outaouais
Gatineau, Quebec                   Gatineau (Québec)

May 7, 2002                        Le 7 mai 2002

                           Volume 2


                                                   PAGE / PARA


PRESENTATION BY CHUM LIMITED /                      354 / 1957

PRESENTATION BY CHUM LIMITED /                      459 / 2596



Directors Guild of Canada                           551 / 3112

Canadian Film and TV Production Association         570 / 3222

Communications and Diversity Network                590 / 3339

G'Nadjiwon Ki Aboriginal Tourism Association        603 / 3421

London Public Library                               612 / 3480

Pooja Narang                                        623 / 3539

Janice Laking                                       634 / 3602

Multicultural Council of Windsor & Essex County     643 / 3656

Association for Media Literacy                      651 / 3709

Dan and Mary Lou Smoke                              657 / 3748

Loretta Todd                                        666 / 3811

Distinct Features Inc.                              671 / 3836

Windsor Regional Hospital and
  Grey Bruce Health Unit                            678 / 3887

Popint AuYeung                                      692 / 3973


  1                         Gatineau, Québec / Gatineau (Québec)
  2       --- Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 7, 2002
  3           at 0930 / L'audience reprend le mardi
  4           7 mai 2002 à 0930
  5  1559                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.
  6  1560                 I believe Commissioner Cardozo was
  7       questioning and will begin this morning.
  8  1561                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Good morning. 
  9       Thank you, Mr. Chair.
 10  1562                 Welcome back this morning.  I hope
 11       you all enjoyed the hockey game last night.  We in
 12       Ottawa certainly did.  We enjoyed watching Toronto play
 13       for those two minutes at the end, like it was real
 14       hockey.
 15       --- Laughter / Rires
 16  1563                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Stick around
 17       for tomorrow.  It will be more fun.
 18  1564                 I should tell you, while we are on
 19       topic, how you look at local news.  At 11 o'clock I was
 20       flicking back and forth between CHRO and Citytv, and I
 21       have to tell you CHRO got it right.
 22       --- Laughter / Rires
 23  1565                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They were
 24       upbeat.  I think the rest is clear as to what I mean.
 25  1566                 It is a matter of capturing the mood. 


  1       Some people know how to and some just don't.
  2  1567                 Let me talk about closed captioning. 
  3       In terms of the smaller stations, talking about Wingham
  4       and Wheatley, I want to be clear whether you are okay
  5       with conditions of licence there.
  6  1568                 As you know for the others, I guess
  7       with CTV, which has a number of smaller stations, what
  8       we said was that their condition of licence would kick
  9       in in year three; that is, 90 per cent of all
 10       programming during the broadcast day and 100 per cent
 11       of news, given that this too is a rebroad of London.
 12  1569                 MR. MILLER:  It isn't a rebroad of
 13       London.  It has distinct and separate local news.  So
 14       the captioning involves additional costs.  I guess our
 15       nervousness with these stations is we are looking at a
 16       more difficult future for them.
 17  1570                 While the tens and hundreds of
 18       thousands of dollars we are talking about might not
 19       seem a lot to you, they mean a lot to those stations. 
 20       They are people and people's jobs.
 21  1571                 With respect to the other matter,
 22       perhaps I can come back to you and reply on that,
 23       because I think we need to caucus on that.
 24  1572                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 25  1573                 I would like to ask you a more


  1       general question about closed captioning, and that is
  2       about the quality.
  3  1574                 As you know, I think that, overall,
  4       closed captioning is really a success story for the
  5       industry and the Commission who, over the last decade,
  6       have been working together to advance this.  On the
  7       English-language side we have made tremendous progress
  8       and are really there in terms of the 90 per cent of all
  9       programming and 100 per cent of news for most
 10       broadcasters.  So it is a wonderful success story.
 11  1575                 The remaining part is the issue of
 12       quality.  If there is one complaint that we hear from
 13       people who are concerned about it, it is quality, not
 14       all the time but at certain times, perhaps mostly with
 15       live programming and news.
 16  1576                 What are your thoughts about how that
 17       is coming along?
 18  1577                 MS CRAWFORD:  We have a number of
 19       thoughts.  I will speak first about how we handle it at
 20       CHUM City in our building and throughout our system.
 21  1578                 As you probably know, we created an
 22       in-house captioning department in 1995.  Every year
 23       since that time we have met both formally and
 24       informally with captioning consumers, people from the
 25       deaf and hard of hearing communities, to make sure that


  1       we are giving them what they need in terms of
  2       captioning service and that we are meeting their
  3       standards.
  4  1579                 We have been particularly diligent
  5       about it.  We have been recognized by captioning
  6       consumers with numerous awards for it.  We pride
  7       ourselves on having developed a great in-house model.
  8  1580                 So to answer your question directly,
  9       the feedback we have had has been tremendously helpful
 10       in refining our systems in terms of our own in-house
 11       operational manual and protocol for captioning.  We
 12       have a very high captioning consumer positive response
 13       and virtually no complaints on that.
 14  1581                 In terms of what we are doing in the
 15       industry, as you may know, the CAB voluntarily
 16       undertook to create an English language closed
 17       captioning manual for standards and practices.  I am
 18       happy to say that both in my role as Chair of the Joint
 19       Societal Issues Committee at the CAB and also in terms
 20       of our own captioning managing in-house at CHUM City,
 21       we really led the group that worked on the manual.
 22  1582                 It is complete now.  The manual is
 23       developed with input from not only people on the JSIC
 24       but also from deaf and hard of hearing captioning
 25       providers and other experts.


  1  1583                 We did undertake community
  2       consultations nationally to get feedback on the manual. 
  3       The manual is now in the editing process.  It is in the
  4       very final stage and will be made available to all
  5       English language broadcasters in the country, and of
  6       course shared with French language counterparts.
  7  1584                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What is it in
  8       the manual that deals with the issue of quality?  What
  9       is the key to success?
 10  1585                 MS CRAWFORD:  It is really an effort
 11       to standardize, if you will, or formalize the protocol
 12       for different captioning systems.  There is a huge
 13       variation about how certain third party captioners and
 14       even in-house captioning departments treat certain
 15       items.
 16  1586                 This manual is an attempt to address
 17       concerns by captioning consumers who sometimes get
 18       confused when they see different style usages, if you
 19       will, in terms of captioning on their screen.  This
 20       manual is an attempt to address the confusion in the
 21       captioning community and give people a more consistent
 22       level of service and standard and usage on-screen.
 23  1587                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Some of the
 24       stuff on the quality issues, stuff is typed in "sounds
 25       like what was said", somewhat like a game charades. 


  1       You have to be playing a game of charades with what you
  2       hear sometimes, because when it is going fast I guess
  3       the person who is transcribing has to move pretty fast. 
  4       They may throw up stuff that just sounds like what was
  5       said but wasn't.
  6  1588                 MS CRAWFORD:  Absolutely.  And
  7       especially in the area of live captioning, it is
  8       extremely important to make sure that you are using a
  9       captioning provider; or if you are doing it in-house,
 10       that you have a highly trained, highly skilled
 11       individual.
 12  1589                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So how you
 13       train is a key part of that.
 14  1590                 MS CRAWFORD:  How you train is a key
 15       part.  We at CHUM have a third party company who is
 16       recognized as being at the very highest level of
 17       excellence within the industry, who handles all of our
 18       live captioning.  We are very proud of that.
 19  1591                 This person and her company undertake
 20       to make sure that all of our people are very highly
 21       trained.
 22  1592                 In the case of certain programs that
 23       are live, when there is the opportunity to provide, say
 24       in the example of a music program, song lyrics in
 25       advance so that they can properly research the given


  1       vernacular of pop music genre so that in advance, when
  2       they are doing the live captioning, they are prepared
  3       with all of the background information, that kind of
  4       thing ensures that you are getting the highest level of
  5       accuracy on screen.
  6  1593                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I had a couple
  7       of questions about relationship with the community in
  8       consultation, but you have answered that.  Thank you
  9       for providing that information.
 10  1594                 I have one more question on closed
 11       captioning, which is the cost implications.
 12  1595                 Is it your sense, or do you know,
 13       whether closed captioning costs you more?  Is it a cost
 14       item, given that you can get sponsorships?
 15  1596                 MS CRAWFORD:  We do undertake to sell
 16       closed captioning sponsorships.  It does not currently
 17       cover our costs, say, for Citytv.
 18  1597                 If you want more detail on that, I
 19       believe Mr. Kirkwood can elaborate on that, if you
 20       like.
 21  1598                 MR. MILLER:  Maybe I can also jump
 22       in.
 23  1599                 I think this conversation is also
 24       more relevant, actually, to the debate on descriptive
 25       video.  We heard the testimony given to you in Calgary


  1       at the hearing a month ago, where it was suggested that
  2       sponsorship will suddenly cover the cost of descriptive
  3       video.
  4  1600                 For that, it is certainly not the
  5       case.  Indeed, the costs that we will incur, that
  6       producers will incur in describing dramatic programming
  7       that we commission, will be reflected in the higher
  8       licence fees that we pay.
  9  1601                 That is so because on the closed
 10       captioning side, as Sarah points out, we don't cover
 11       our costs.
 12  1602                 Obviously, if you have top 20 shows,
 13       that extra inventory essentially that a sponsorship
 14       gives you can be sold, because you are always maxed on
 15       your 12-minute advertising limit.  So that is another
 16       thing you can sell on a top show.
 17  1603                 But for the vast majority of our
 18       schedule, we are not so fortunate as to be sold out on
 19       all of our inventory, certainly not all of the time. 
 20       That sponsorship revenue may well replace other
 21       revenue.
 22  1604                 Even if it did net out net-net, the
 23       incrementality of that revenue is in question.
 24  1605                 I don't know, David, if we have any
 25       estimate of how much of the cost we can cover, but I


  1       know that we don't cover the entire cost.
  2  1606                 MR. KIRKWOOD:  I don't know if you
  3       want the actual numbers.  But from what I understand,
  4       it doesn't come up to the actual cost of the closed
  5       captioning.
  6  1607                 The closed captioning, too, for
  7       programs -- and I hate to sound like a broken record
  8       about the people at the top 10, 20 programming, but for
  9       a provider of programs like "West Wing" or "ER", the
 10       extra inventory there is extremely valuable.  It is a
 11       godsend.  There is a lot of pressure on that inventory
 12       for them, and this provides another revenue outlet.
 13  1608                 We don't have programs of that
 14       stature, and understandably a billboard on a program of
 15       that size commanding that cost per 30 is going to be a
 16       better return on the investment.
 17  1609                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you will
 18       charge different rates for sponsorships of the program
 19       to --
 20  1610                 MR. KIRKWOOD:  It would depend on the
 21       audience delivery of the program.
 22  1611                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Can I move to
 23       ethnic programming, and that is primarily the third
 24       language programming.
 25  1612                 With regard to the programming you do


  1       on Citytv, is that brokered?  What is the arrangement?
  2  1613                 It is largely provided by CHIN, I
  3       understand.
  4  1614                 MR. MILLER:  The current arrangement
  5       -- and it has been this way for many years -- is that
  6       it is a brokered arrangement.
  7  1615                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Tell me what
  8       you are currently doing with ethnic programming across
  9       your system and what your plans are as you go ahead.
 10  1616                 You talked in a supplementary brief
 11       that you might be doing some ethnic programming in
 12       Ottawa, given that CHIN now has a licence here.
 13  1617                 Give me a picture of your overall
 14       planning on the system.
 15  1618                 MR. MILLER:  The overall corporate
 16       perspective is each market is different, and each
 17       general manager and their team make the decisions as to
 18       what is most appropriate in their market.
 19  1619                 I think that question is definitely a
 20       question you should pose to the VU team and the RO
 21       team.  They are the ones that currently have plans to
 22       do ethnic programming or multicultural programming.
 23  1620                 That is a decision that they make,
 24       certainly with our encouragement and when opportunities
 25       arise.


  1  1621                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  When you talk
  2       about the relationship with CHIN expanding, you were
  3       talking about it expanding on City or expanding on
  4       CHRO?
  5  1622                 MR. MILLER:  On The NewRO, yes.
  6  1623                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you consult
  7       with community groups from time to time on the ethnic
  8       programming to get a sense of how you are responding to
  9       the needs?
 10  1624                 MS CRAWFORD:  In terms of feedback on
 11       the ethnic programming, that is definitely something
 12       that our partners at CHIN would undertake to do.
 13  1625                 Generally speaking, in terms of
 14       consultation with our community, we are extremely
 15       involved and aggressive about doing that, and we are
 16       consulting our community in a number of ways, both at
 17       the local station level and of course nationally, both
 18       formally and informally.
 19  1626                 One of the main mechanisms we
 20       recently had to solicit feedback from communities in
 21       terms of providing service for them, both in third
 22       language and ethnic programming in the English
 23       language, to build bridges between communities and
 24       serve second and third generation Canadians, was in the
 25       form of, as an example, the consultation we did


  1       nationally with groups when we developed our Best
  2       Practices statement.
  3  1627                 We made sure that we, in writing,
  4       consulted with stakeholders across the country to seek
  5       input on that document when it was in draft form.
  6  1628                 Additionally, when we convened in
  7       Victoria our Colloquium on Cultural Diversity in the
  8       Media, both print and electronic, we endeavoured to set
  9       up a nine-person steering committee who again sought
 10       comment from their local communities and regions in
 11       putting together what the shape of the discussion would
 12       be in Victoria.
 13  1629                 As you know, that was a five-hour
 14       live telethon that again encouraged feedback from all
 15       Canadians live on the air by telephone, e-mail, fax,
 16       what have you.
 17  1630                 There were outcomes from the
 18       Colloquium, and we would be happy to talk more with you
 19       about those.  Many of them have been incorporated into
 20       our programming plans going forward, both nationally
 21       and locally; also into the creation of our corporate
 22       plan on cultural diversity.
 23  1631                 Those are just a few initiatives.
 24  1632                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Ms Crawford,
 25       you are reading my mind ahead of time.  I have those


  1       exact questions.  They are coming up.
  2  1633                 Let me just focus on ethnic
  3       programming for a second.
  4  1634                 The part that is presently, I take
  5       it, mostly third language, run on Saturday and Sunday
  6       mornings on City, do you see that evolving over time or
  7       changing, either to be a bit of English or in any other
  8       way?
  9  1635                 MS CRAWFORD:  I think we are always
 10       open to evolution.  I think ultimately it is a
 11       programmer question.  We can share some thoughts with
 12       you about the developing that we are doing, for
 13       example, at CKVU in Vancouver, where we are definitely
 14       moving forward with some very exciting initiatives in
 15       that area.
 16  1636                 Prem Gill would be pleased to tell
 17       you more about those.
 18  1637                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sure.
 19  1638                 MS GILL:  We spent a lot of time
 20       thinking about what we are going to be doing in
 21       Vancouver with our multicultural programming.  Having
 22       grown up in Vancouver and having talked to my peers and
 23       with CHUM, and having met with community groups over
 24       the last few years, the dominant issue that keeps
 25       coming up is that we want to see programming about


  1       ourselves, made by us, in the English language.
  2  1639                 Part of that is what Sarah was
  3       talking about.  It is not just building bridges between
  4       communities but also within communities, because so
  5       many micro communities exist within communities.  It is
  6       also having the opportunity to tell our stories in
  7       English, because this is the language that a lot of
  8       second and third generation people are comfortable
  9       with.
 10  1640                 Also, as we are telling those
 11       stories, not just in the dramatic form but in our
 12       programming, when it is appropriate, if we want to
 13       speak in our third language, we could do that. 
 14       Sometimes you can't describe something in English.
 15  1641                 We are taking all of these things
 16       into consideration and developing programming that is
 17       going to be -- what I have been thinking lately is that
 18       it is kind of the middle step now.  We started with
 19       multicultural programming in Canada where it was in
 20       third languages, what CHIN has been doing on Citytv and
 21       what the multicultural channel provided in Vancouver.
 22  1642                 I still think there is a need to do
 23       that kind of programming, but there is kind of this
 24       next level where there are people who say:  Okay, I am
 25       Canadian.  Most of the programming on television, a lot


  1       of it, whether it is ethnic or not, appeals to me.
  2  1643                 But now we are at the point where we
  3       want to make that jump into developing our skills as
  4       producers, as writers, as directors and as viewers;
  5       seeing ourselves in that next phase before it all
  6       balances out.
  7  1644                 I think this is the opportunity for
  8       us at CKVU to start something new in multicultural
  9       programming in Canada.
 10  1645                 MR. MILLER:  Perhaps I could add
 11       something, Mr. Cardozo.
 12  1646                 I think this is an area where we see
 13       ourselves making a mark, at first in Vancouver, but
 14       then more nationally.  It is a consistent theme that
 15       has come up, both in the formal and informal
 16       consultations that we have had.
 17  1647                 I just had a look at our summary of
 18       recommendations from the Colloquium.  Number 7 of nine
 19       recommendations was this notion of increased
 20       programming for and about visible minority youth that
 21       reflects their fluid multiple identities.
 22  1648                 It is this concept, that you are well
 23       aware of, of the multiple identities of ethnic youth. 
 24       They are proudly Canadian.  They watch MuchMusic, but
 25       they also have their ethnic roots.  That is another


  1       very significant part of their identity.
  2  1649                 I just want to echo that it is a good
  3       example of how, through consultation, both formal and
  4       informal, through bringing into our organization people
  5       like Prem, we learn not only how to do things
  6       differently at the local level but ultimately we hope
  7       nationally, as well.
  8  1650                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On the
  9       question of nationally, once you are getting this kind
 10       of feedback in Vancouver -- and you probably would get
 11       similar stuff in Toronto, I imagine.
 12  1651                 What I hear you saying is that you
 13       are not looking at any changes to your Toronto ethnic
 14       programming at this point.
 15  1652                 Do you see that happening?
 16  1653                 MR. MILLER:  Again, it is an evolving
 17       process.  The beauty of Prem taking the lead in
 18       Vancouver is that what we learned there -- and if it
 19       works -- we can bring perhaps the programming concepts
 20       to our other stations.
 21  1654                 Having worked with Lenny and his team
 22       at CHIN, we know they are very open to new ideas, as
 23       well.  So whether that is the focus of our Ottawa
 24       programming or whether ultimately our Toronto
 25       programming starts to change, that is something that we


  1       are definitely going to look at.  Nothing is entrenched
  2       in stone.
  3  1655                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On aboriginal
  4       programming in the system, what would you consider to
  5       be aboriginal programming?  Do you do any?
  6  1656                 MR. MILLER:  We have a number of
  7       examples.  Again, I am going to ask you to ask our
  8       specific managers on that, because you will see at a
  9       number of our stations they make this a particular
 10       priority.
 11  1657                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So there are
 12       individual programs?
 13  1658                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Specifically, at the
 14       New VI we have started a program called "The New
 15       Canoe".
 16  1659                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Called...?
 17  1660                 MR. ZNAIMER:  "The New Canoe", which
 18       is specifically targeted to and about; and because it
 19       is about, it is also of interest to the larger
 20       community.  But it is focused on First Nations.
 21  1661                 MR. MILLER:  There are specific
 22       examples, Commissioner, elsewhere in our system.  Those
 23       programs are part of a more integrated approach to our
 24       relationship with and reflecting that community.
 25  1662                 I know that program producers and


  1       managers would be happy to talk to you about specifics.
  2  1663                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me move to
  3       the issue of reflecting cultural diversity throughout
  4       your programming schedule, in the English language part
  5       of your schedule.
  6  1664                 I will start with a fairly general
  7       question for either Mr. Znaimer or anybody else.
  8  1665                 You started this 32 years ago.  We at
  9       the Commission have become much more concerned about it
 10       in the last two or three.  There are certain things we
 11       have done in the past around employment equity, ethnic
 12       programming, reflection on screen.  Certainly in the
 13       last two or three years we have begun to take a more
 14       comprehensive approach to it.
 15  1666                 Tell me what your thoughts were back
 16       32 years ago as to why you felt the need to reflect the
 17       multicultural diversity of Toronto then and how it has
 18       changed until today.
 19  1667                 Is it the same imperative?  Is it the
 20       same reasons?  Is it the same thing that you are trying
 21       to do or achieve?
 22  1668                 MR. ZNAIMER:  It began with me in a
 23       very personal way.  As I approach my work with the
 24       touch of the artist, I am not shy about expressing my
 25       personal experience.  I think writers and people who


  1       work in the various expressive crafts frequently mine
  2       their own experience as a touchstone for the validity
  3       of those thoughts.
  4  1669                 As an immigrant myself and as, at
  5       that time, a recent arrival to Toronto, I could see
  6       that what I was, who I was and all the others like me
  7       who I knew were not reflected in mainstream television.
  8  1670                 So it struck me at the time that it
  9       was important to do the right thing.  In addition to
 10       that, it was my hunch that the right thing would be a
 11       smart thing, because one could see which way the wave
 12       was going and growing.  So that is how it began.
 13  1671                 It was also a striking point of
 14       differentiation between us and the look and feel of
 15       mainstream television.
 16  1672                 I also had the additional inspiration
 17       that what began as third language service would drive
 18       our television station into the homes of families who
 19       in turn would have children who would become mainstream
 20       Canucks, much like myself, but who would have had the
 21       imprint of Citytv because of its particular service to
 22       their parents and to their grandparents.
 23  1673                 So it was a complex of those ideas,
 24       those inspirations.  And one ought not disregard also a
 25       strong moral element in it, in that I was certain it


  1       was, as I said, the right thing to do.
  2  1674                 As it has evolved, I think Prem is an
  3       expression of where this reality is going.  Where it is
  4       going is that we must now conceive of how to evolve
  5       these programs, which have a certain functionality in
  6       third languages; how to evolve that into an expression
  7       of a new style of Canadianness.  That begins in making
  8       programs for us, by us, as Prem put it, but in the
  9       language of Canada, or one of the languages of Canada.
 10  1675                 But it can extend further, I would
 11       hope eventually to see mainstream entertainment where
 12       minority people serve as the hero figures rather than
 13       the peripheral figures.
 14  1676                 I was visited recently by an
 15       extremely charming and dynamic young man who lives his
 16       life in a wheelchair after a dramatic sporting
 17       accident.  He was on a mission.  He had some research
 18       money, and he was looking for some thoughts about how
 19       to expand the public's mind about the capability of
 20       people in that situation.
 21  1677                 I said to him, only half in jest --
 22       in fact, not in jest at all.  I said we do our bit at
 23       Citytv by having people in a wheelchair report on
 24       everyday occurrences as part of the news.  We have an
 25       extraordinary fellow, David Onley, who has been


  1       everything from our space and new science specialist;
  2       today he has a particular interest in education.  The
  3       whole point was to offer him up to the public in the
  4       most natural way.
  5  1678                 I said if you really want to go one
  6       step further, let's try and marshall some money and
  7       create an action adventure series in which the hero is
  8       someone with that kind of "handicap" -- and I put that
  9       in quotations -- but that hero gets the girl and makes
 10       away with the money.  That's the way to do it.
 11  1679                 What we do in our formal lives is
 12       rather targeted, I would think, to older people.  What
 13       entertainment can do is enter the reality of younger
 14       people.
 15  1680                 MS CRAWFORD:  I would like to add
 16       something, getting back to part of your question.
 17  1681                 Citytv, reflecting its community back
 18       in the 1970s, had a different reflection job to do. 
 19       The composition of Toronto is different and has evolved
 20       over the years.  As it has evolved, so too has City.
 21  1682                 Initially when City went to air, some
 22       of the then underrepresented groups of people who we
 23       thought it was job one to put on the air, people like
 24       our still current anchor Ann Mroczkowski -- at the
 25       time, to put a Polish woman with that kind of a name,


  1       with multi letters and syllables, on the air was a
  2       somewhat radical thing to do on television, even in the
  3       city of Toronto.
  4  1683                 So over the years the reflection job
  5       has become a different kind of complexity.  We are
  6       responding to that.  We are definitely cognizant and
  7       sensitive to how the complexion of the audiences
  8       change, and we have evolved as the City.  That is the
  9       heart of what a Citytv is all about in terms of being a
 10       real accurate reflection of the community.
 11  1684                 As Commissioner Grauer I think talked
 12       about yesterday, the CRTC considers its shareholders to
 13       be the Canadian public.  So, too, do we.  Our job as a
 14       broadcaster has all kinds of public responsibility that
 15       comes with it, and the reflection issue is one that we
 16       have always thought about and implemented every day at
 17       City, and we are continuing to do it as we expand.
 18  1685                 MS GILL:  I would like to add an
 19       example of having grown up and lived in Vancouver my
 20       whole life.  I didn't have a Citytv and I didn't even
 21       see those underrepresented groups often on television. 
 22       In Vancouver we mostly had news programming.  There has
 23       not been a lot of other local programming over the
 24       years.
 25  1686                 One of the things that came out of


  1       our Colloquium last year is that there are a lot of
  2       people like me out there, but we are still not seeing
  3       the opportunity.  So at CKVU -- and we will talk more
  4       about this in our station presentation -- we are
  5       implementing scholarship programs with the local post
  6       secondary institutions targeted specifically at visible
  7       minority and aboriginal people so that we can all help
  8       each other come up through the systems and mentor each
  9       other.
 10  1687                 There is no base in Vancouver.  I
 11       have not been able to find it.  So we are doing our
 12       part.
 13  1688                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am
 14       wondering, if you look at world events and the last
 15       couple of weeks, if you look at Europe both in France
 16       in the last day or so and in Holland, where
 17       anti-immigrant sentiments are receiving wide
 18       consideration, having major political implications.
 19  1689                 Is it facile to say that reflecting
 20       diversity on television blunts that anti-immigrant
 21       sense?  Does it mainstream people?  Does it do
 22       something that makes us a more successful society so
 23       far compared to some of those others?
 24  1690                 MR. ZNAIMER:  No, it's not facile at
 25       all.  It drives to the heart of the matter.  If


  1       television is indeed the most powerful medium on the
  2       face of the earth -- and, incidentally, it is -- then
  3       it ought to be the vehicle for communicating the
  4       richness that emerges when you get this new kind of
  5       blend emerging in a society.
  6  1691                 It is no accident that Canada is seen
  7       as by far the leader in this inevitable movement of
  8       world culture and world population.
  9  1692                 We have an annual conference called
 10       Idea City, and one of the speakers that I have booked
 11       is a fascinating writer called Pico Iyer.  He is man of
 12       complex origins, as you might divine by his name.  But
 13       he has identified Canada as the quintessential post
 14       modern 21st Century society for precisely this reason
 15       and has written very persuasively about it in an
 16       interesting book.
 17  1693                 So I think you are entirely right,
 18       Commissioner, to look to television to help society
 19       come along.
 20  1694                 MS CRAWFORD:  Commissioner, I am
 21       compelled to jump in and share with you a quote that
 22       Moses recently made in a speech where he received an
 23       award for the advancement of minorities in the
 24       entertainment industry from The Real Black Awards,
 25       which are designed to recognize and acknowledge the


  1       work of black filmmakers, because it is right on point
  2       to your question.
  3  1695                 He said in that speech:
  4                              "What we say and do in TV, film,
  5                              music and new media matters. 
  6                              Inclusiveness doesn't just
  7                              happen.  Where it used to take
  8                              millennia or centuries for one
  9                              race or culture to meet and
 10                              accommodate and mesh into
 11                              others, globalized digitized
 12                              media can and do spread lasting
 13                              images, positive and negative,
 14                              in a matter of seconds.
 15                              All of us at City and CHUM..."
 16  1696                 This is the last sentence.
 17                              "...will continue to do the
 18                              small thing, the obvious thing,
 19                              the right thing.  And I think if
 20                              we all did that diligently day
 21                              by day, Toronto and Canada and
 22                              the world would soon become a
 23                              better place."
 24  1697                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
 25  1698                 Goodness, Moses, you are as quotable


  1       in your speeches as you are live here in presence --
  2       although you gave them a better quote than you gave us.
  3       --- Laughter / Rires
  4  1699                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am glad your
  5       colleague brought it to our attention.
  6  1700                 I don't mean to undermine that.  I
  7       appreciate what you said.
  8  1701                 Let me ask you about the national
  9       Colloquium.
 10  1702                 Mr. Miller mentioned there are nine
 11       recommendations.  I wonder if you could table those
 12       with us, in the interests of time.
 13  1703                 Give me a sense of one or two things
 14       that you might have followed up on within CHUM since
 15       the Colloquium.
 16  1704                 MS CRAWFORD:  We can get into it now
 17       or with the CKVU panel, but there are a number of areas
 18       where specifically at CKVU -- and at The New VI, for
 19       that matter, although they are not up for renewal at
 20       this particular hearing --
 21  1705                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am talking
 22       more system-wide.
 23  1706                 MS CRAWFORD:  System-wide, I would
 24       say we responded to the request for monitoring and
 25       measurement internally, for corporate accountability. 


  1       We have been doing what we do quite successfully, very
  2       successfully, at CHUM through all of our stations.  But
  3       we even realized the value, as we expand, in taking a
  4       more formalized look internally at how we achieve our
  5       diversity objectives and goals.
  6  1707                 It is one thing to have created new
  7       stations and grown in programming and take on new staff
  8       at 299 Queen Street West, because it literally is a
  9       part of the operational and business and social culture
 10       every day at that station.  But as our company grows
 11       and expands, it does help us to have the ideas and
 12       philosophy and practices codified.
 13  1708                 That is, as you know, why we created
 14       the Best Practices.
 15  1709                 So having a Colloquium that
 16       identifies areas for us to really implement and codify
 17       as we expand, and now through the corporate plan, is
 18       tremendously helpful.  Of course, that kind of
 19       community feedback is going to be integral to what we
 20       do going forward.
 21  1710                 We recently at Citytv, for example,
 22       held a community consultation.  Some of the very same
 23       observations have come through at the community level
 24       as at the national level.
 25  1711                 Again, at CKVU Prem can talk about


  1       how we have directly implemented some of the
  2       recommendations.
  3  1712                 MR. MILLER:  If I could very quickly
  4       go through this, we have it right here.
  5  1713                 The Colloquium wasn't designed to
  6       make formal recommendations, as you know.  But as we
  7       sat down and tried to distil it all, we came up with
  8       the nine.  We actually filed them with you back when we
  9       filed our supplementary brief for the CKVU transaction.
 10  1714                 Of the nine, the first four dealt
 11       with issues that, as Sarah says, have been part of our
 12       corporate movements and are entrenched now in the
 13       formal corporate plan that we filed with you Friday.
 14  1715                 Another four were very specific
 15       recommendations dealing with co-production, with
 16       aboriginal and ethnic broadcasters, access for minority
 17       filmmakers to funding, the issue that I mentioned
 18       before on programming for and about visible minority
 19       youth, and also the one that Prem has spoken about,
 20       training, mentorship and scholarship programs.
 21  1716                 So those we first implemented at the
 22       VU level and again are taking national, particularly
 23       with some of the stuff we are speaking with Diane and
 24       her team about.
 25  1717                 Finally, the last one was the


  1       baseline research recommendation, which you will recall
  2       was initially part of our VU benefits package proposal
  3       but now is being picked up by the industry, based on
  4       your urging of the CAB and CTV and Global.  So we are
  5       now part of that as part of the broader CAB initiative.
  6  1718                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
  7  1719                 On the plan that you filed on Friday,
  8       obviously we have not had a lot of time to go through
  9       it, and certainly we as a Panel have not had a chance
 10       to talk about it.  So what I will do is just raise a
 11       few quick issues.
 12  1720                 This will be part of the
 13       documentation that is out there for people to give us
 14       feedback within ten days, if they choose.  And we will
 15       get back to you either at some time in between or at
 16       the decision itself.
 17  1721                 Let me just raise a few things.
 18  1722                 There are a few things that I thought
 19       were not there, and maybe you can tell me if they are: 
 20       time lines, as to when things would be happening; you
 21       talked about targets at various points, and it wasn't
 22       clear where the targets would be or how they would be
 23       developed; and sort of evaluation of progress or
 24       benchmarks.
 25  1723                 MS CRAWFORD:  First of all, I will


  1       begin by -- I'm sorry, were you finished, Commissioner?
  2  1724                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.
  3  1725                 MS CRAWFORD:  I will begin by saying
  4       it is a draft plan.  We felt it was important to submit
  5       the general thinking and directions that we were going
  6       in.  So it will be refined, both because we have more
  7       areas to put in but also we will be interested in
  8       hearing the feedback.
  9  1726                 In respect to the time lines issue,
 10       it is our position, without wanting to appear to be
 11       resting on our laurels or to be accepting of the status
 12       quo, that in almost all of these areas we are there;
 13       that we are successfully walking the walk of the talk
 14       that we talk.
 15  1727                 We think we are reflective.  We think
 16       in each of the areas we have identified that
 17       correspond, as you will see, to our articles in the
 18       Best Practices that cover all of our operational areas,
 19       be it programming or hiring or mentorship or media
 20       literacy, we think we are there.
 21  1728                 So the implicit time line is it is a
 22       daily expectation to meet and exceed the reflection of
 23       our community in all the areas.
 24  1729                 We do have an understanding of the
 25       composition of our communities.  We do have an


  1       understanding of the specific needs and requests from
  2       our communities.  We believe we have implemented those.
  3  1730                 Do we grow as a station in everything
  4       that we do every day?  Of course.  Will we grow and
  5       implement new ideas, new creative ideas?  Of course.
  6  1731                 You will see throughout the corporate
  7       plan that there are some very specific new initiatives
  8       to move forward the same philosophy that has always
  9       been in place but just in new and continuing ways.
 10  1732                 I alluded to it before; that as we
 11       grow, one of our jobs is to ensure the daily vigilance;
 12       to not lose that initial seed of commitment and
 13       inspiration, quite frankly, that build our station --
 14       our station being Citytv.
 15  1733                 So those are the time lines.
 16  1734                 In terms of the targets, again it is
 17       implicit.  On an annual basis, we talk specifically in
 18       the plan about formal internal audits that station
 19       general managers will conduct on a yearly basis, formal
 20       reports that they in turn will make to the President of
 21       CHUM Television, formalize meetings that I, as the
 22       senior executive for cultural diversity corporately,
 23       will have.
 24  1735                 Again, the notion there is that in
 25       terms of targets on an annual basis, everyone needs to


  1       meet the general target of true reflection in all of
  2       the operational areas.  That is the target.
  3  1736                 Measurement for progress, again on an
  4       annual basis this will be something that is scrutinized
  5       both informally, of course, and certainly formally.
  6  1737                 I think that is also one of the new
  7       commitments that we have articulated in the plan; that
  8       not only will there be the internal audit, not only
  9       will there be the informal community consultations, in
 10       addition to the formal, not only will there be the
 11       formal reporting at each station by each station
 12       manager or divisional head to our President, there will
 13       also be an annual general meeting of general managers
 14       where cultural diversity will now be a key component to
 15       that discussion and a key expectation as a deliverable
 16       within our company.
 17  1738                 It has always been there, but we are
 18       just formalizing a little bit more.
 19  1739                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks for
 20       that.
 21  1740                 Just to underline, as I think you
 22       understand, our approach is really to say to
 23       broadcasters:  Figure this thing out the way it is most
 24       appropriate for you.  So we don't have a template that
 25       says these are the exact steps you have to take.  We


  1       have a list of basic areas that we think are important.
  2  1741                 Certainly if you are there, that's
  3       fine.  And across the system each broadcaster is at
  4       different stage of this development.
  5  1742                 MS CRAWFORD:  I will just add one new
  6       initiative, Commissioner, that in fact will be added to
  7       the draft -- and it is one we have alluded to.
  8  1743                 In the area of reflection, I think
  9       one of the new things that we are cognizant of,
 10       especially at the national level in Canada, is that the
 11       research shows that two-thirds of the visible minority
 12       population in Canada is under the age of 34.
 13  1744                 So we have definitely at CHUM, and
 14       because of the kind of programming that we do, made it
 15       a focus to make sure that we are delivering the needs
 16       and serving the needs of visible minority youth.
 17  1745                 Certainly one of Prem's roles is a
 18       corporate responsibility to both consult and assist at
 19       the corporate level, with a particular focus on serving
 20       youth.  We think that that in terms of a national
 21       reflection -- because of course in our specialty
 22       services a national broadcaster is of key importance.
 23  1746                 MR. MILLER:  Perhaps I could add two
 24       short observations.
 25  1747                 I think what is key is that we


  1       recognize there, as in we are there, is a moving
  2       target.  "There" changes year by year.  So "there", for
  3       us, is not a static thing; it is an evolving thing.
  4  1748                 Second, I think even we -- and I can
  5       honestly say this, I think, Sarah -- were pleasantly
  6       surprised about the benefits of writing this stuff
  7       down, the benefits of taking our principles and coming
  8       up with the Best Practices and we hope the benefits of
  9       coming up with this plan, because then there is a
 10       document that does inspire us, that does make us
 11       reflect.
 12  1749                 The benefits of process and paper
 13       can't be understated so that when we get together,
 14       either formally or informally, we are more cognizant of
 15       it.  We are challenged to do more.
 16  1750                 I know in talking to Diane in terms
 17       of her relations with independent producers, she has
 18       always been cognizant of it.  I know she is more
 19       cognizant of it now.
 20  1751                 Just to echo what has been said, we
 21       are by no means sitting on our laurels.  "There" is a
 22       moving target, and we continue to evolve and do it
 23       better day by day, year by year.
 24  1752                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.  It
 25       is an interesting comment you made in terms of the


  1       demographics on visible minority youth.  I had not
  2       heard that before.
  3  1753                 It is a similar, if not more, pointed
  4       demographic with the aboriginal population, where there
  5       is a larger young population which means a rapidly
  6       growing population there, too.
  7  1754                 Let me ask you a few specific
  8       questions.
  9  1755                 On page 7 you talked about original
 10       local programming that reflects our diverse
 11       communities.
 12  1756                 If this is a major area where
 13       cultural diversity stuff will happen, then does it
 14       follow that your possible plans of reduced local
 15       programming will mean less programming that will
 16       reflect diversity?
 17  1757                 MR. MILLER:  We thought about this a
 18       little bit last night.
 19  1758                 I think one of our strengths has
 20       always been serving niches, as Moses has tried to drive
 21       out of me the use of the term "conventional".  We try
 22       never to refer to ourselves as conventional
 23       broadcasters.  We are terrestrial, over the air
 24       broadcasters, but we have never been conventional.
 25  1759                 We have always served niches, be they


  1       geographic communities or niche communities of interest
  2       across the country.
  3  1760                 The point about diversity is you can
  4       reflect it on the local geographic basis, but you can
  5       also reflect it on the community of interest basis.
  6  1761                 For example, even if we were to
  7       reduce some of the local programming on some of our
  8       stations in Ontario, perhaps Prem comes up with a real
  9       hit that hits multicultural youth.  Yes, it is produced
 10       in Vancouver, but it is something that we take
 11       national.
 12  1762                 While the mix of
 13       regional/local/national may change, the commitment to
 14       diversity, the commitment to reflection will not.
 15  1763                 MS CRAWFORD:  Additionally,
 16       Commissioner, as you know, the reflection of diversity
 17       -- in this case, racial and cultural diversity -- does
 18       not occur just within the half-hour or hour-long
 19       programming blocks.
 20  1764                 It is a key component -- and I think
 21       we have reflected this in the corporate plan as well --
 22       of our interstitial --
 23  1765                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I understand
 24       that.  I am just referring to the section on that page.
 25  1766                 On the next page, page 8, the


  1       cultural diversity databank of experts:  Just to
  2       clarify, this is something that will be available to
  3       all media.  It is more than an in-house tool?
  4  1767                 MS CRAWFORD:  Absolutely.
  5  1768                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Later on on
  6       that page there is a question:  Should we include in
  7       the appendix --
  8  1769                 MS CRAWFORD:  That was to prove it
  9       was a draft document.
 10  1770                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am not sure
 11       whether that question was internal or for me.  But my
 12       answer is "yes".
 13       --- Laughter / Rires
 14  1771                 MS CRAWFORD:  That was in fact in
 15       error, as an internal comment.  A colleague of mine
 16       said this will turn out to work in our favour, because
 17       the list of our accomplishments in this area is so
 18       long, I actually didn't include it because I thought it
 19       would look a little promotional.
 20  1772                 But I am delighted that you would
 21       like to see it.
 22  1773                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In favour is
 23       okay.  You are supposed to sell yourselves at these
 24       hearings -- not that you haven't been doing it so far.
 25  1774                 I have a couple of questions on page


  1       9.
  2  1775                 At the bottom half of the page you
  3       talked about what I would call outreach, which is
  4       basically when you are doing program commissioning and
  5       acquisitioning -- and you talk about it on page 7, as
  6       well, independent producers.  What you will be doing is
  7       talking to them about your commitments to cultural
  8       diversity; so when you are out there talking to new
  9       producers, potential producers, producers you are
 10       already using.
 11  1776                 Give me a sense of how that would
 12       work and what would happen if either you are not
 13       getting stuff that reflects diversity or some of your
 14       true and tried producers are not reflecting diversity.
 15  1777                 What would you do?
 16  1778                 MS CRAWFORD:  I am going to ask Diane
 17       Boehme to talk about this at her level, and then also
 18       independently our local development officers will talk
 19       about it.
 20  1779                 MS BOEHME:  Thank you, Sarah.
 21  1780                 It actually is something that every
 22       independent producer that we work with was sent a copy
 23       of our Best Practices document.  Many of them called to
 24       speak to me about it.  We had very open discussions
 25       about how it was going to be implemented.


  1  1781                 In most cases where we have a choice
  2       we insist and build in approvals that require casting
  3       to be sensitive to racially diverse people being
  4       represented.  In those projects that we are developing,
  5       we make it front and centre.
  6  1782                 We do in fact have a very large multi
  7       million dollar television series that is being financed
  8       right now where, for us, because it is about a search
  9       for identity -- and it is science fiction, so obviously
 10       it is a metaphor.  But for us, we really want to be
 11       cutting edge.
 12  1783                 In fact, we have insisted that the
 13       protagonist and the hero of the series be a multi
 14       racial character.  He is not one thing; he is not
 15       another thing.  He is a complex of group of things.  We
 16       are targeting younger demographic, and we really
 17       believe that that is the next wave of story-telling.
 18  1784                 We run into some resistance in some
 19       of our international markets, but the project is
 20       probably about six weeks away from closing the
 21       financing.
 22  1785                 It is one of those things that we
 23       have been really cognizant of.  Every producer that
 24       comes to us that wants to tell that kind of story, we
 25       don't tell them the kind of story that they want to


  1       tell, but we support them in the sense that we make
  2       their stories coherent; we make them marketable.  And
  3       we help promote their efforts.
  4  1786                 In those cases with the multicultural
  5       filmmakers that we have worked with on the feature film
  6       side where they have asked us "do we need to dialogue
  7       everything in English", the answer is always:  No.  If
  8       it is a natural outcrop of what they are doing, let
  9       them speak in whatever language is appropriate, and
 10       then we subtitle into English where it is appropriate.
 11  1787                 So it is one of those things that
 12       everybody who asks us is certainly given the
 13       opportunity to express themselves in the language that
 14       is natural to them.
 15  1788                 And no, we are not getting enough
 16       filmmakers from a lot of different communities, and it
 17       is part of the reason that every time I go to a film
 18       festival and every time I sit on a panel, it is front
 19       and centre with this is what we are looking for.  That
 20       is what every independent producer wants to know.  We
 21       always say we are looking for multicultural
 22       representation.
 23  1789                 Does that help?
 24  1790                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You guys
 25       trained well.  You always answer the next two questions


  1       I have.
  2  1791                 But one you didn't.  To what extent
  3       do you find or do you have any sense of whether this is
  4       helping you with regard to sales in the United States?
  5  1792                 I ask this question in light of the
  6       major effort by the big broadcasters there who have
  7       signed these memorandums of agreement with groups like
  8       the MWACP and others with commitments to have more
  9       material that reflects the American diversity, but
 10       reflects diversity.
 11  1793                 Are you getting any sense of that,
 12       that they are interested in material that is diverse?
 13  1794                 MS BOEHME:  On the television series
 14       side, yes, it helps.  It has not necessarily been the
 15       case of the feature film side.  Inroads are being made
 16       through specialty festivals of one kind or another. 
 17       There is always an aboriginal film festival that is
 18       held in conjunction with Sundance, for instance, with a
 19       very large over-representation from Canadian filmmakers
 20       that are First Nations peoples.
 21  1795                 It is a slow battle, but they are
 22       listening, absolutely.
 23  1796                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I have a few
 24       more quick questions on your plan.
 25  1797                 On page 10 you have talked about


  1       "Vancouver's Other Stories" -- and this is really a
  2       question I should have asked a few months ago.
  3  1798                 You have an $800,000 fund for the
  4       "Vancouver's Other Stories", and then you have a
  5       $7 million fund for the B.C. feature films.
  6  1799                 I am assuming that the B.C. feature
  7       films isn't for the white folks and the other folks go
  8       to the "other stories" part.
  9  1800                 MS CRAWFORD:  No.
 10  1801                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I thought I
 11       would ask that, all the same.
 12  1802                 You talked about employment equity
 13       being a vital plank in your reflective strategy, at the
 14       bottom of page 11.
 15  1803                 I looked at some employment equity
 16       figures on CHUM Limited, which were not very positive. 
 17       As you may be aware, Human Resources Development ranks
 18       federally regulated companies on an A, B, C, D level.
 19  1804                 For the year 2000 they have ranked
 20       the aboriginal category as "C", and visible minorities
 21       was "C".  Then in 2001 aboriginal categories was "C"
 22       and visible minorities was "D".
 23  1805                 You have received "A" in the category
 24       of women, which is good; person with disability, "C".
 25  1806                 Just so you know, among other


  1       corporations there is a range of As, Bs, Cs and Ds.  So
  2       "As" are attainable.
  3  1807                 I was surprised to see that, because
  4       a "D" is sort of out of sync with everything else that
  5       you are putting forward.
  6  1808                 MS CRAWFORD:  I have a couple of
  7       comments on that.
  8  1809                 We are speaking here today clearly
  9       for CHUM Television.  Those numbers that you have
 10       reflect our entire corporate group, CHUM Limited, so I
 11       can't break them out for you.
 12  1810                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.  They
 13       didn't have them broken out.
 14  1811                 MS CRAWFORD:  And they don't break
 15       them out.
 16  1812                 I can tell you that we do conduct
 17       self-identification questionnaires which, as you know,
 18       are voluntary when you undertake to do that amongst
 19       your staff.
 20  1813                 We get a fairly good response rate. 
 21       But as you are probably aware, it is a voluntary
 22       questionnaire, and not everyone has to or wants to fill
 23       it out.
 24  1814                 Our indications, both from the
 25       responses of the questionnaires, station by station,


  1       and just experientially, anecdotally, as managers we
  2       know that our reflection levels are very, very good; in
  3       many cases, in almost all cases, meeting community
  4       profile levels and exceeding them.
  5  1815                 We have many excellent stories, not
  6       only for on-air reflection but behind the scenes
  7       reflection of visible minority and aboriginal people
  8       being over-represented and in fact being included in
  9       very significant key areas of responsibility,
 10       managerial areas, in terms of programming; also areas
 11       of influencing program creation and programming
 12       content.
 13  1816                 The numbers are inherently flawed, I
 14       guess is what I am saying, to a degree.
 15  1817                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But they are
 16       flawed equally for anybody else, too.
 17  1818                 MS CRAWFORD:  I guess so.  I am
 18       saying that our own experience and evidence indicates
 19       that we are performing quite well.  In terms of the
 20       employment equity numbers as filed, there are problems
 21       with that.
 22  1819                 MR. MILLER:  I would actually say
 23       they are not equally flawed for everyone else.  As you
 24       are aware, the jurisdiction for employment equity was
 25       moved to the Human Rights Commission, which changes the


  1       Broadcasting Act.
  2  1820                 The major corporate groups have gone
  3       through an audit, and I think they went through the
  4       exercise that we are just going through to ensure
  5       self-identification happens.
  6  1821                 So I think part of the problem may be
  7       that we haven't been vigorous enough in our
  8       self-identification, which is something that we are
  9       working on now.
 10  1822                 MS CRAWFORD:  Interestingly, there
 11       are real difficulties and challenges with that process. 
 12       I will share with you that a cursory glance at the
 13       response rate of our most recent self-identification
 14       audit indicates that almost 100 per cent of the male
 15       staff chose not to fill it out.  Therefore, we are not
 16       capturing any male staff representing visible minority
 17       groups at all, which inherently flaws the numbers.
 18  1823                 And believe me, we are quite vigilant
 19       in encouraging, to the degree that we can -- because it
 20       is a voluntary form -- including even phoning staff who
 21       chose not to respond, to just give them a friendly
 22       reminder that you may want to respond or did you lose
 23       your form.
 24  1824                 Notwithstanding that, we are not
 25       getting anywhere close to a 100 per cent response rate.


  1  1825                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  As you know,
  2       the jurisdiction for employment equity itself isn't the
  3       Commission's; it is the Human Rights Commission and
  4       HRDC.
  5  1826                 But you have filed it -- and most
  6       others have -- as a factor that looks at the overall
  7       cultural diversity approach and gives one a sense.
  8  1827                 So if you do have anything more at a
  9       future time to let us know, it would be helpful.
 10  1828                 Among your top management, is there
 11       much diversity, say with the vice-presidents and
 12       upwards?
 13  1829                 MS CRAWFORD:  I will comment on that.
 14  1830                 Contrary to appearances of having
 15       brought our entire staff to this hearing, we actually
 16       did not.  There are people who represent visible
 17       minorities and aboriginal people who are in managerial
 18       positions, who you do not see before you today.
 19  1831                 You do, however, see before you today
 20       -- and you haven't seen some of our teams yet -- people
 21       in senior positions who do represent both aboriginal
 22       peoples and visible minorities.
 23  1832                 Another thing about CHUM that is
 24       unique, perhaps, is that there are many senior staff,
 25       especially at the vice-president level and above, who


  1       are long, long time CHUM employees.  And to a degree, I
  2       think the reflection rate in senior management is going
  3       to evolve as a generational thing.
  4  1833                 The mean age, the average age, of the
  5       people who sit before you today, including some of our
  6       newer members, is 19 years of service on average.  On
  7       some of our other teams later, on the Citytv team, the
  8       average years, length of service, comes in at 21 years.
  9  1834                 We have an entire new generation of
 10       talent representing visible minorities and aboriginal
 11       peoples who you will see very soon at the senior-most
 12       levels of CHUM Television.  They are just not there
 13       yet.
 14  1835                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks for
 15       that, because are dealing with sort of the next term as
 16       well.
 17  1836                 I want to share with you that a year
 18       ago Ivan Fecan sat here and said when he comes back in
 19       seven years for a licence for renewal, he will be
 20       number one in the Canadian scene in terms of reflecting
 21       cultural diversity.
 22  1837                 Are you going to let that happen?
 23  1838                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Absolutely not!
 24  1839                 You might want to note that Ivan
 25       Fecan got his start in television at Citytv.


  1  1840                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And CHIN radio
  2       before that, I understand who is also part of your
  3       team.
  4  1841                 Finally, a question on media
  5       education.  You have talked about media education here
  6       -- and this is again one of the general questions, when
  7       we are talking to the industry, that comes under that
  8       title.
  9  1842                 What is your sense of what the
 10       priorities are these days in terms of media literacy,
 11       media education?  Where is the field focusing?
 12  1843                 MS CRAWFORD:  The field is
 13       developing, as you know.  As you also know, CHUM is the
 14       leading private broadcaster certainly in Canada in
 15       supporting media education.  In the specific unique
 16       rules that we play, we have been recognized as the
 17       leading broadcaster in the world in supporting media
 18       education.
 19  1844                 We believe inherently that it is of
 20       huge importance.  Like it or not, the screen is the
 21       ubiquitous and dominant media that is in our children's
 22       and all of our lives.
 23  1845                 In the same way that people need to
 24       think critically about the printed page and about
 25       printed text, people also need to think critically and


  1       have the tools to think critically about what is on the
  2       screen.
  3  1846                 We, as a broadcaster, have stepped in
  4       as a private company to fill in the holes where it is
  5       not happening.  Media education is mandated from
  6       K-to-13 in every province right across the country. 
  7       There is huge lack of teacher training.
  8  1847                 CHUM underwrites meaningful teacher
  9       training by media education experts.  It is not
 10       television executives going into the faculties of
 11       education to provide this training.  You are going to
 12       hear from one of the intervenors today, in fact, who
 13       undertakes this for CHUM in many areas.
 14  1848                 So teacher training is definitely an
 15       area.
 16  1849                 Having original content that is
 17       Canadian content, that encourages a critical look at
 18       the screen, is another key area.  It is also one that
 19       we have undertaken to make sure that we do.
 20  1850                 We hear from teachers all the time:
 21       that if they see one more in-class television program
 22       about dolphins, they are going to scream.  What they
 23       really need at the high school level is a show --
 24  1851                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think that is a
 25       good topic.


  1  1852                 MS CRAWFORD:  Dolphins are
  2       well-served, believe me.
  3       --- Laughter / Rires
  4  1853                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You want to
  5       make sure you pronounce that word right.
  6  1854                 MS CRAWFORD:  What we really need is
  7       perhaps an area -- and again it focuses on youth --
  8       where some of the influences that are so prevalent in
  9       pop culture really get explored in a really critical
 10       and profound way and that people are given the tools to
 11       understand the media and not be threatened by it.
 12  1855                 Television is an incredibly powerful
 13       medium, as we all know.  It doesn't need saying here.
 14  1856                 We have a stake in seeing that the
 15       medium is not devalued.  We have a stake as
 16       professionals, and also frankly as citizens who care
 17       about the broadcasting system, in ensuring that
 18       television continues to be used for the best.
 19  1857                 I believe very strongly -- we believe
 20       that media education is a key component in the
 21       broadcasting business and in the educational systems
 22       that needs to be focused on far more powerful a tool to
 23       deal with some of the challenges in the popular media
 24       than in instruments like, say, the v-chip, which really
 25       becomes an electronic babysitter.


  1  1858                 I am not disparaging the usefulness
  2       of that tool entirely, but it is a different kind of
  3       tool with specific limitations.  I think that education
  4       about the media is really where we need to be.
  5  1859                 I think I answered your question.
  6  1860                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes, you did. 
  7       Thank you very much.
  8  1861                 And thank you for those answers.
  9  1862                 Mr. Chair, that covers my questions.
 10  1863                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 11  1864                 I have two areas of wrap-up at this
 12       phase.
 13  1865                 I wonder, Mr. Palframan, if I could
 14       get you to look at the revised financial statements, at
 15       Sections 3.1 and 3.4 for all stations, and then Section
 16       3.2 for Citytv.  I just want to see whether I am
 17       reading it correctly.
 18  1866                 When I look at the all stations
 19       bottom table, Analysis of Savings Flexibility and Other
 20       Measures, and the local programming line, and I get to
 21       year seven, I see a figure of $10,183,000.
 22  1867                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Yes, that is correct.
 23  1868                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then when I go to
 24       the Citytv chart under News, year one to year seven, I
 25       notice that there is a fall-off of some $5 million.


  1  1869                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Yes, that's correct.
  2  1870                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that half of
  3       that $10 million?
  4  1871                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Yes, it would be.
  5  1872                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would be.
  6  1873                 Could you break down how that
  7       $5 million is calculated, how you get from the
  8       $12,313,000 in year one down to $7,721,000?
  9  1874                 Does this have anything to do with
 10       the cutting the crews discussion that we had yesterday;
 11       and if so, how do you factor in that element of cost
 12       saving?
 13  1875                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Sure.  And it does
 14       relate exactly to that.
 15  1876                 As part of getting clarity as to how
 16       that number comes down, it is useful to look at the
 17       Citytv page, the Citytv analysis of the savings.  That
 18       shows the breakdown as to how we have estimated those
 19       savings on the Citytv 3.2, going down from the 12 to
 20       the 7.
 21  1877                 If you look at the actual Citytv page
 22       for Section 3.1, there is an analysis of those savings
 23       from flexibility and other measures.  It shows a
 24       breakdown between local programming and other Canadian
 25       programming.


  1  1878                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.
  2  1879                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  You will see, for
  3       example, that in year one the estimated savings from
  4       local programming is $282,000 in the first year, going
  5       to $6.4 million in the seventh year.
  6  1880                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two sixty-two.
  7  1881                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  I'm sorry, 262. 
  8       Maybe I need reading glasses, as well.
  9  1882                 That speaks to Sarah's point about
 10       the aging senior management.
 11       --- Laughter / Rires
 12  1883                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  In any event, it
 13       shows the movement from $262,000 to $6.4 million in
 14       local programming.  And the other Canadian estimated
 15       savings are the $2.1 million.
 16  1884                 That shows you the progression
 17       through Citytv.
 18  1885                 Specifically to your question, that
 19       is where the reductions in a crew, for example, would
 20       be reflected.
 21  1886                 I guess the other point I would make
 22       is that the further out one goes, the harder it is to
 23       be specific about where those savings would be.  What
 24       we have tried to do with these projections is to give
 25       you a sense of the magnitude of what it is that we have


  1       to deal with and our best estimate of how that might be
  2       implemented.
  3  1887                 In reality, obviously we hope that it
  4       won't get to that point.  We have talked about how
  5       nimble we are and the kinds of things we will have to
  6       do.
  7  1888                 But in terms of being responsible and
  8       reflecting the reality that we have today versus four
  9       weeks ago, we wanted to give you a sense of how that
 10       might unfold.
 11  1889                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  It seems
 12       that when you look at the line you just pointed me to
 13       that you basically add a million and some every year --
 14       well, from the first to the second and from the second
 15       to the third, and then seven hundred and then another
 16       million, and nine hundred.
 17  1890                 I am wondering how you get those
 18       chunks.  They are not exact, and they don't seem to be
 19       projections.
 20  1891                 Do they relate to block expenditures
 21       on crews, as you were describing yesterday; and if so,
 22       could you break them down?
 23  1892                 MR. MILLER:  Again, to reiterate what
 24       we said yesterday, what we did is develop the target of
 25       where we need to get to and then, for the purpose of


  1       these financial projections, have a reasonable
  2       roll-out.
  3  1893                 Certainly Peter can speak to the
  4       assumptions he made as to how that rolls out.
  5  1894                 Again, to be clear, all we have done
  6       is set the target of where we need to get to at the end
  7       of the licence term.  How we get there will be a
  8       combination of all the things we have talked about, one
  9       of which could be cutting crews.  But we have not made
 10       any determinations on that.
 11  1895                 Obviously, as this suggests, the
 12       cutbacks to the City news operation would be very
 13       significant over this period.  How much of that we can
 14       absorb through doing things differently versus cutting
 15       crews is a debate that we are going to spend a lot of
 16       time on in the next year and in subsequent years.
 17  1896                 So it goes to that point of all we
 18       tried to do is show you where we have to go.  We can't
 19       tell you if it is going to be exactly this or exactly
 20       how we are going to get there.
 21  1897                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Additionally,
 22       Mr. Chair, as we discussed yesterday, we have some
 23       comfort and quite a bit of certainty about the next
 24       year.  In fact, the targets for Citytv in Section 3.1
 25       of what we believe we are going to have to find are in


  1       the order of half a million dollars.
  2  1898                 I am not suggesting that is an easy
  3       thing, but it is certainly something we can handle and
  4       deal with over the year.
  5  1899                 We believe the required savings that
  6       we are going to have to find the following year, when
  7       both stations have launched, is about $2.5 million.  As
  8       we go out into the model, it becomes much more
  9       difficult to be specific about choosing from all the
 10       choices we have before us.
 11  1900                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps you could
 12       share some of those assumptions now or subsequently,
 13       Mr. Palframan.  I am easy on either.
 14  1901                 I am trying to also relate these to
 15       your local programming commitments; that if you cut
 16       that amount out of the budget, as you pointed me to,
 17       then $5 million in news -- it's a lot more than that
 18       when you go across the board; $6.5 million of local.
 19  1902                 How do you maintain even the reduced
 20       commitments from your best case scenario?
 21  1903                 MR. MILLER:  I would first of all
 22       point out that we have, as we discussed yesterday,
 23       filed minimum commitments for local news and non-news
 24       programming at Citytv of 18 hours.
 25  1904                 We can do those 18 hours with these


  1       numbers at the end of the licence term.  We are not
  2       saying we are going to go that route, but if we had to
  3       go to these levels, we know we could at least produce
  4       and air those 18 hours.
  5  1905                 Our hope is obviously that we would
  6       be able to produce significantly more than that.  But
  7       again, we haven't made any determinations at this stage
  8       as to how we would accommodate these cuts.
  9  1906                 In proposing to you -- and this is
 10       key -- the level of 18 hours and in developing these
 11       final projections, there is a consistence there which
 12       does, to your point, relate to the cutting of crews.
 13  1907                 So at the extreme worst-case
 14       scenario, if I may, by cutting crews and reducing to
 15       our absolute bare minimum commitment, we have enough
 16       money in these projections to do that.
 17  1908                 Again, I reiterate that is the
 18       extreme worst-case scenario that we hope we don't have
 19       to go down to in terms of level of hours.  We are going
 20       to have to go down in terms of these dollars, to some
 21       extent, unless something changes.  But in terms of
 22       hours, obviously our big challenge as a team will be
 23       figuring out how to do more with less.
 24  1909                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It certainly will
 25       be a challenge.


  1  1910                 I need a little more reassurance that
  2       you can maintain it with less since you are basically
  3       chopping half your local budget and saying you will be
  4       able to maintain those levels.
  5  1911                 MR. MILLER:  Maybe I can try it with
  6       another approach.
  7  1912                 We currently do 22 hours and 40
  8       minutes of local news on Citytv.  If we were to cut
  9       that -- and I am just picking a number out of the air
 10       -- to 11 hours and 20 minutes, that would be a cut of
 11       half, representing almost what we have done here.
 12  1913                 Then on top of that, if we were to
 13       have the remainder, which would be, if my math is
 14       correct, six hours and 40 minutes of local programming
 15       a week, that would take us up to the 18 hours.
 16  1914                 If I have understood your question to
 17       be "could we meet the minimum commitments we filed with
 18       these projections", the answer is yes.  That was the
 19       important decision we had to make in filing both these
 20       projections and the absolute bare minimum commitments
 21       that we filed with you.
 22  1915                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did I hear an
 23       undertaking, Mr. Palframan?
 24  1916                 I'm sorry if I am not pronouncing
 25       your name properly.


  1  1917                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  That's pretty good.
  2  1918                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you flesh out
  3       the assumptions as to how you did that local
  4       programming line on the Citytv chart?
  5  1919                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Yes, I will certainly
  6       file that with you.  But for now, and just so you know,
  7       there were a number of things that we took into account
  8       in coming up with those projections, which included
  9       revenue levels and the current spending on local.
 10  1920                 Where the current spending is
 11       heaviest, as Peter indicated, you can make those kinds
 12       of cuts but still produce the kinds of hours that we
 13       have committed to.
 14  1921                 I can certainly expand on that, and
 15       we will file that with you.
 16  1922                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 17  1923                 Finally, in your opening comments --
 18       and I think it was Mr. Znaimer's portion -- you say on
 19       page 7 that:
 20                              "If you want risk-taking --
 21                              particularly if, Mr. Chair, you
 22                              want a response to your 'Book
 23                              Mark' challenge of taking US
 24                              primetime head-on -- please
 25                              recognize in us a team who are


  1                              itching to put ourselves in a
  2                              position to take up that
  3                              challenge."
  4  1924                 We didn't review that, so I would
  5       like you to give me your strategy as to how we are
  6       going to meet the U.S. prime time challenge head-on and
  7       when.
  8  1925                 MR. ZNAIMER:  This relates to the
  9       discussion about what portion of expenditures on higher
 10       cost, high quality entertainment materials comes to us
 11       from outside producers and what portion we make
 12       ourselves.
 13  1926                 We are a production-oriented
 14       broadcaster and have some very good and, I think,
 15       highly innovative ideas about how to do that kind of
 16       programming and are eager to give it a try but find
 17       ourselves at this moment hemmed in, one, by our
 18       near-term financial realities, but beyond that by a
 19       variety of funding mechanisms and pressures from third
 20       party producers to prevent us from being active in this
 21       field.
 22  1927                 We wish to be active in this field,
 23       and we think we have a particularly unique contribution
 24       to make in this field.  That is what that reference is
 25       about.


  1  1928                 MR. MILLER:  The other half of that,
  2       if I can add --
  3  1929                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But how are you
  4       going to do it?  What is the strategy for Canada and in
  5       particular for Citytv and the CHUM group in meeting
  6       that challenge that you so rightly --
  7  1930                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Well, the crucial first
  8       step was the acquisition of another City-style outlet
  9       in a major market.  One of the things that prevented us
 10       from moving into the higher cost areas of fiction has
 11       always been the fact that we had one solitary little
 12       transmitter in one city, with quite a circumscribed
 13       signal at that.
 14  1931                 So adding another big market is a
 15       partial way to that solution.  Perhaps adding one or
 16       two other markets would also be an additional piece or
 17       two in that puzzle.
 18  1932                 We feel ourselves approaching the
 19       moment and the level at which we can undertake this
 20       kind of activity.  We have the desire to do so.
 21  1933                 There are some broadcast
 22       organizations that don't have the desire to do so and
 23       are happy to cede this work to independents or
 24       so-called independents.
 25  1934                 Peter, what do you want to add?


  1  1935                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me ask you,
  2       though, what you see as the U.S. prime time challenge.
  3  1936                 MR. MILLER:  Could I jump in,
  4       Mr. Chair?
  5  1937                 There are three parts to this.  Moses
  6       discussed the part of us itching to get at this as
  7       producers and our frustrations with a public policy
  8       framework that has built up a so-called independent
  9       production sector, the biggest player of which is no
 10       longer independent, and yet public policy still treats
 11       them as such.  That is hopefully something that public
 12       policy will address.
 13  1938                 I am, of course, not referring to
 14       your policies; I am referring to those of the funding
 15       agencies.
 16  1939                 Two -- and we have hinted at this --
 17       we are very proud of our track record of attracting
 18       Canadians to Canadian programming in prime time on a
 19       relative basis.  We think, as we grow, as Moses
 20       indicated, first with the addition in the Vancouver
 21       market, and if we are blessed with other markets in the
 22       future, then our ability to take these risks and to do
 23       it is enhanced.
 24  1940                 Third, in terms of our work with
 25       independent producers, we see the addition of our


  1       production as not detracting in any way from our
  2       support of true, if you will, independent producers.
  3  1941                 As Diane pointed to earlier, roughly
  4       95 per cent of the productions that we financed over
  5       the last licence term were to small and medium-sized
  6       companies.
  7  1942                 So that development of talent, we are
  8       convinced that there is real talent there that we are
  9       developing that will take us to better and better
 10       movies.  And one of our dreams would be a really
 11       strong, unique prime time Canadian series.
 12  1943                 If the Osbornes can be done by MTV,
 13       we can do something perhaps as popular and as different
 14       as that, as a Canadian production.
 15  1944                 Finally, in terms of how we do it, we
 16       certainly don't have all the answers today, Mr. Chair. 
 17       It is part and parcel of our philosophy, which is not
 18       to ghettoize Canadian programming and not to be overly
 19       reliant on U.S. simulcast.
 20  1945                 So we will put top-notch Canadian
 21       programming up where the viewers are.  That sometimes
 22       will mean head-to-head with some top U.S. shows.  We
 23       have done it before; we will do it again.
 24  1946                 As Moses indicated, if we can get
 25       past this challenging short-term period, hopefully


  1       short-term period, then we want to get back at that.
  2  1947                 We want to acknowledge your statement
  3       and indicate that we think it is important, and we want
  4       to try and take you up on your challenge.
  5  1948                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  6  1949                 We will adjourn now, Mr. Secretary,
  7       and come back with the next item.
  8  1950                 Do you want to describe that?
  9  1951                 MR. LEBEL:  After the break,
 10       Mr. Chairman, we will hear the second presentation that
 11       is going to be made by CHUM.
 12  1952                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We will
 13       resume at 11:05, in 15 minutes.
 14       --- Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050
 15       --- Upon resuming at 1105 / Reprend à 1105
 16  1953                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary,
 17       would you call the next item, please.
 18  1954                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 19  1955                 We will now hear CHUM on their
 20       presentation for City and CKVU.
 21  1956                 You have 15 minutes to make your
 22       presentation.
 24  1957                 MR. SWITZER:  Thank you.
 25  1958                 Mr. Chair, Madam Vice-Chair, Members


  1       of the Commission, for the record my name is Jay
  2       Switzer, President, CHUM Television.
  3  1959                 Before we begin our presentation
  4       today, I would like to introduce you to our large and
  5       energetic group that represents the Citytv and CKVU
  6       panel.
  7  1960                 Beginning in this first row, on the
  8       left -- I will just talk about changes, to be
  9       respectful of time -- we have Stephen Tapp,
 10       Vice-President and General Manager of Citytv.  To your
 11       right of Peter Miller is Brad Phillips, Vice-President
 12       and General Manager of CKVU in Vancouver.  Stephen and
 13       Brad will introduce their local teams to you in the
 14       course of their presentations.
 15  1961                 At the crowded side table, in a
 16       slightly different order than before, let me again
 17       introduce, starting from your far left, Daphne Hubble,
 18       David Caporicci, Dan Hamilton, David Kirkwood, Ron
 19       Waters, Fred Sherratt, Peter Palframan, Brigitte Daviut
 20       and Paul Gratton.
 21  1962                 To begin our presentation, could we
 22       roll the tape, please.
 23       --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
 24  1963                 MR. TAPP:  Mr. Chair, Madam
 25       Vice-Chair, Members of the Commissioners, I am Stephen


  1       Tapp, Vice-President and General Manager of Citytv
  2       Toronto, and I think I have the best job in television.
  3  1964                 With us from our Citytv team are
  4       Ellen Baine, Director of Programming; Marcia Martin,
  5       Vice-President Production; Jenny Norush, Director of
  6       Promotion and Advertising; and Stephen Hurlbut,
  7       Vice-President of News Programming.
  8  1965                 It is a pleasure to be here before
  9       you today to present the Citytv story.
 10  1966                 Citytv is one of the key architects
 11       of local television in this country.  Local television,
 12       to us, has meant constantly striving for ways to be an
 13       inclusive broadcaster.  For the last 30 years, we have
 14       opened our doors to the rich, culturally and racially
 15       diverse viewing communities that comprise our
 16       television neighbourhood.
 17  1967                 Citytv has been, and remains,
 18       accessible, interactive and spontaneous.  These are
 19       attributes that we come by honestly.  It's in our DNA;
 20       it's who we are.
 21  1968                 Our support for our diverse community
 22       includes broadcasting 10 hours a week of programming,
 23       representing 10 different languages and cultures,
 24       through our long-standing relationship with CHIN
 25       Radio/Television International.


  1  1969                 These shows extend deep into our
  2       community.  They support many local organizations,
  3       businesses and performers.  For Citytv to give a window
  4       to this kind of programming is one thing, but it's our
  5       commitment to being an involved participant in the
  6       day-to-day multicultural reality of Toronto that sets
  7       us apart.
  8  1970                 MS NORUSH:  Our community involvement
  9       extends to events such as Caribana, The Reel World Film
 10       Festival, The New Pioneers Awards, The Canadian
 11       Aboriginal Festival, Metro International Caravan and
 12       one of our more gratifying yearly events, The Canadian
 13       Citizenship Ceremony that we hold at the station and
 14       broadcast live.
 15  1971                 In the domain of charitable support,
 16       we take our role as an engaged community partner very
 17       seriously.  We lend financial, airtime, talent support
 18       and consulting expertise to many worthy causes.
 19  1972                 We support our community not because
 20       we have to, but because we want to.  We want to put in
 21       more than we take out.
 22  1973                 MR. HURLBUT:  Citytv provides more
 23       local news than any other station in the Toronto area. 
 24       We are fully dedicated to localism and to the task of
 25       giving a voice to the local stories that have a real


  1       tangible meaning for our viewers.  Our "day in the
  2       life" brand of telejournalism is community based.  We
  3       are interactive, democratic and pluralist; but most
  4       importantly, we are accessible:  accessible through
  5       innovative formats like "Speakers Corner", our daily
  6       video letter to the editor, and "CityOnline" where we
  7       solicit our viewers' opinions by phone, fax and e-mail.
  8  1974                 "Streetwise", our nightly wisdom from
  9       the street interviews, gives priority to the viewers'
 10       take on the stories of the day.  Just recently we were
 11       the first Canadian station to launch interactive
 12       television, and viewer usage stats are the highest
 13       experienced by any broadcaster in North America.
 14  1975                 Breakfast Television has been an
 15       important part of our community for over 13 years. 
 16       During the current licence term, we have provided live
 17       access to over 2800 local bands and artists, 3500
 18       community groups and charities.  We have showcased over
 19       1750 live locations.
 20  1976                 Every day we take BT to the streets. 
 21       We hit the road and broadcast live from the cafés, the
 22       schools, the factories -- from all the places that
 23       Torontonians gather.
 24  1977                 Citytv remains the only station in
 25       Toronto that has an active on-air Ombudsman.  For over


  1       15 years Peter Silverman has been a fearless consumer
  2       advocate on our viewers' behalf.  Peter and his team
  3       help solve 100 problems a year on camera, but they also
  4       help eight times that number off camera.
  5  1978                 At Citytv we ask the question:  What
  6       is the one thing you would do to make Toronto a better
  7       place to live?
  8  1979                 In our weekly news feature "The
  9       Living City", we celebrate those special individuals
 10       who are doing something to make a difference.
 11  1980                 At Citytv we get involved.  With our
 12       Living City Task Force, we have handed out sleeping
 13       bags to the homeless and volunteered in soup kitchens. 
 14       We have planted trees and collected clothing for
 15       underprivileged children.  We give access to our
 16       station, but we also participate in a real, meaningful
 17       and physical way.
 18  1981                 At Citytv, the city is our newsroom.
 19  1982                 MS BOEHME:  Part of City's mandate
 20       over the years has been to produce as much local,
 21       original programming as we could.  This has helped
 22       define our unique personality and market position.  But
 23       we know we can't do it all.  That is why, over the last
 24       25 years, City is proud to be the primary broadcast
 25       supporter of Canadian filmmakers with a special


  1       emphasis on new, emerging talent.
  2  1983                 Atom Egoyan is an internationally
  3       recognized name.  But before he was famous, when he
  4       needed support for his early feature "Speaking Parts",
  5       it was Citytv that supported him.  In the years since,
  6       we have stayed committed to Canadian filmmakers.
  7  1984                 Whether it is at an early development
  8       phase or later on, when it is time to put real dollars
  9       on the table and demonstrate market support, in most
 10       cases Citytv steps in first.  Again, this is consistent
 11       with who we are and reiterates our eagerness to lead
 12       the way for innovation.
 13  1985                 So too, our support for The Toronto
 14       International Film Festival is unrivalled.  For 18
 15       years Citytv has supported the award for Best Canadian
 16       Film.  Since 1996 we have also supported the award for
 17       Best Canadian First Feature Film.
 18  1986                 We don't just hand out awards; we
 19       hand out well-deserved and much needed cash to the
 20       winners.
 21  1987                 MS MARTIN:  One of our most important
 22       original productions is the annual Festival Schmooze on
 23       MovieTelevision, a 90-minute live show that showcases
 24       the Canadian film industry with The Toronto
 25       International Film Festival's "Perspective Canada" --


  1       all about Canadian films, filmmakers and stars.
  2  1988                 MovieTelevision has told more than
  3       500 Canadian feature film stories in the past seven
  4       years, and Startv has profiled more than 400 Canadian
  5       stars in just the last four years.  It is part of our
  6       ongoing contribution to the development of a healthy
  7       star system.
  8  1989                 Other local productions like Fashion
  9       Television, MediaTelevision, The NewMusic and Cityline
 10       have become distinct brands and remain an important
 11       part of who we are today.  It's the success of local
 12       programming that not only tells our story but has been
 13       a model that has become exportable.
 14  1990                 Our Canadian stories and culture,
 15       told in our original programming, are seen in over 120
 16       countries worldwide; and our pioneering formats have
 17       been adopted by other broadcasters internationally. 
 18       We, like them, have found that more original
 19       production, more local culture, is the smart response
 20       to the ongoing influx of American entertainment
 21       programming that dominates our airwaves.
 22  1991                 MR. TAPP:  Mr. Chair, Commissioners,
 23       as you can see, we are proud of the special place that
 24       we occupy in the hearts and minds of our viewers and of
 25       our community.  However, our contributions to localism,


  1       cultural diversity, independent production and
  2       community outreach come with a significant cost.
  3  1992                 Toronto is undeniably the most
  4       competitive television market in the world.  With the
  5       impending addition of two new Toronto stations, our
  6       market reality has drastically changed.  It is becoming
  7       even more difficult to generate the kind of revenues
  8       that we require to maintain high levels of original and
  9       local content.
 10  1993                 Accordingly, we are asking the
 11       Commission to accept an appropriate level of priority
 12       and local programming commitments.  These commitments
 13       will significantly exceed our current conditions of
 14       licence -- for local, 35 per cent higher than the COL
 15       that is currently in place.
 16  1994                 We submit these proposals in
 17       accordance with your policy framework and in light of
 18       what we hope you will agree is our unique contribution
 19       to the broadcasting system.
 20  1995                 Finally, we know that local has a
 21       different rhythm, a different pace and a unique style
 22       anywhere and everywhere you go.  So Citytv in Barcelona
 23       belongs to the people of Barcelona, and Citytv Bogota
 24       looks like Bogota.
 25  1996                 In Toronto, Citytv is Toronto


  1       Television.  CKVU, to be known as Citytv Vancouver,
  2       will be an original, one of a kind station that will
  3       honestly and credibly reflect the faces, the issues and
  4       the pulse of that great city.
  5  1997                 MR. PHILLIPS:  I am Brad Phillips,
  6       General Manager and Vice-President of CKVU Television.
  7  1998                 With me today are members of our
  8       management team.  To my immediate left is Prem Gill,
  9       Manager of Public Affairs.  Behind Prem is George
 10       Froehlich, Director of News and Daily Programming. 
 11       Next to George is Debbie Millette, Program Manager.
 12  1999                 CHUM's purchase of CKVU Television
 13       closed on October 31, 2001, and as British Columbians
 14       we can't express to you just how excited and proud we
 15       are to have this opportunity in Vancouver.
 16  2000                 In our recently approved application
 17       we committed to rebuilding CKVU to become an ultra
 18       urban, ultra modern, news-minded, movie-based station,
 19       reflecting the cultural diversity of Vancouver and the
 20       Lower Mainland.  We are now well on our way to
 21       fulfilling that commitment and offering our viewers
 22       more local news, local non-news programming and local
 23       multicultural programming.
 24  2001                 MR. FROEHLICH:  Our first step will
 25       be the creation of a new daily show that will reflect


  1       Vancouver's polyglot community.  It will be
  2       contemporary, stylish and relevant in its presentation
  3       and content.  Viewers will experience a program that
  4       will showcase Vancouver with its unique and distinctive
  5       voices.
  6  2002                 This program will be part of the
  7       station's commitment of 12 hours of locally produced
  8       non-music programming.
  9  2003                 The station is also revamping its
 10       flagship 6 p.m. newscast to be more on the cutting edge
 11       of social issues, trends, lifestyles and news viewers
 12       can use.
 13  2004                 Our vision is one of a news program
 14       that will be more culturally diverse, more sensitive
 15       and inclusive to the needs and aspirations of our
 16       viewers.
 17  2005                 A team of specialist reporters
 18       representing the diversity of Vancouver will ensure
 19       that these objectives are met.  The scope of their task
 20       will be wide-ranging and innovative, from bridging
 21       communities to youth issues and bread and butter
 22       matters such as education and health, to name but a
 23       few.
 24  2006                 MS GILL:  CKVU will be the first
 25       conventional broadcaster in Canada to create an


  1       in-house production unit dedicated to producing local,
  2       original, "new style" multicultural and aboriginal
  3       television.
  4  2007                 We will produce a daily flagship
  5       program and weekly magazines focused on current affairs
  6       and entertainment.  This programming will be mostly in
  7       English and targeted at second and third generation
  8       Canadians.
  9  2008                 CHUM's commitment to independent
 10       production in Vancouver is well recognized by
 11       Vancouver's local feature film community.  Now there
 12       will be even more development and pre-buy dollars
 13       available to support B.C. independent features, and it
 14       means terrific Vancouver-made feature films, like
 15       "Protection" and "Last Wedding", will be see in the
 16       communities that created them, as well as across the
 17       country.
 18  2009                 One thing that we have found,
 19       however, is that not enough people in the multicultural
 20       and aboriginal film making communities are aware of the
 21       opportunities that exist for them.
 22  2010                 On March 21st we announced a
 23       submissions call for short dramatic stories from
 24       aboriginal and visible minority filmmakers to a new
 25       funding and development program, "Vancouver's Other


  1       Stories".  By the May 1st deadline we had received 60
  2       submissions -- well over the 20 or so we had expected.
  3  2011                 MR. PHILLIPS:  In addition to
  4       "Vancouver's Other Stories", we have already initiated
  5       many of the commitments to local talent development
  6       that were part of CHUM's benefits package.
  7  2012                 Details were provided in our
  8       reporting letter filed on Friday.
  9  2013                 We are extremely proud of the
 10       progress we have made in just six months.  As we
 11       prepare to re-launch CKVU as Citytv Vancouver, we also
 12       recognize that our commitment and dedication to
 13       reflecting Vancouver's culturally diverse reality must
 14       not only be in front of the camera, but also behind the
 15       scenes.  This is a major priority of ours.
 16  2014                 Mr. Chair, Commissioners, we have
 17       presented you with a short introduction of our progress
 18       and plans in Vancouver.  We are committed and have
 19       already begun to create truly local, reflective
 20       television in the Vancouver market.
 21  2015                 On behalf of my colleagues at CKVU-TV
 22       and Citytv in Toronto, thank you for listening.  We
 23       look forward to your questions.
 24  2016                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 25       much.


  1  2017                 Commissioner Cardozo will lead the
  2       questioning on Citytv and Commissioner Grauer on CKVU.
  3  2018                 I will ask Commissioner Cardozo to
  4       begin.
  5  2019                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
  6       Mr. Chair.
  7  2020                 Before I get into some of the
  8       specifics of the issues we need to discuss, I wonder if
  9       you could take a couple of minutes and paint me a
 10       pretty broad-brush picture of where you see Citytv in,
 11       say, five to seven years from now.
 12  2021                 In the video and what you talked
 13       about is what you have done to date -- and that is part
 14       of what a licence renewal proceeding is about -- and
 15       where you are today.
 16  2022                 How do you see things changing or
 17       being different in terms of how the viewer sees it?
 18  2023                 The viewer doesn't count hours of
 19       this or that.  They just get the stuff every day.  How
 20       do you see yourselves evolving?
 21  2024                 MR. SWITZER:  Perhaps I can begin,
 22       Commissioner, and Moses or Stephen and others may want
 23       to join in.
 24  2025                 Citytv has grown and changed, of
 25       course, since its launch in September of 1972.  I think


  1       if you were to look back at the program schedule and
  2       the words that we used seven years ago when this
  3       Commission discussed both our plans forward and our
  4       plans backwards with many of the same individuals that
  5       appear here before you today, and if you were to go
  6       back a further seven years and look at those words and
  7       those programs and review our accomplishments and our
  8       challenges for the future, you would be able to put
  9       together a consistent vision that regardless of the
 10       exact titles of the programs and the hours, what has
 11       remained consistent throughout our entire history,
 12       effectively since launch, is the intense localism and
 13       the sense of community and connection to the street,
 14       regardless of the size of the business, regardless of
 15       the number of hours.
 16  2026                 The station is committed to remaining
 17       a meaningful and relevant part of our viewers' lives. 
 18       We have never veered from that path.  We have been
 19       fortunate enough to have a team creatively, led by
 20       Moses, that shares that vision and shares that path.
 21  2027                 Of course, the community has changed. 
 22       Our broadcast coverage has changed.  Our business has
 23       changed.  Our programming has flexed over the last 30
 24       years through bad times and good times.
 25  2028                 It is very unusual, and I would


  1       suggest probably unique, in the Canadian broadcasting
  2       system to have such a consistent vision and creative
  3       team in place so that we can remain accountable, first
  4       to our viewers, of course, and secondly to the system
  5       at large and to Canadians, through you, for what we
  6       have done.
  7  2029                 We are here mostly to celebrate the
  8       work of these people that are before you, to discuss
  9       the future, to look at choices and options, to openly
 10       and completely review the challenges.
 11  2030                 Whether we were small or large,
 12       whether we had a single transmitter or repeaters, we
 13       have remained true to our calling.
 14  2031                 We believe that our place in Toronto
 15       and the void we fill, the niche we occupy, remains as
 16       important today -- the need for that remains as
 17       important today as ever.
 18  2032                 MR. TAPP:  Jay really hit on most of
 19       the points.
 20  2033                 For us, it is believing that you
 21       never forget where you came from or what got you there. 
 22       The Citytv legacy in the city of Toronto -- and in fact
 23       worldwide as well but more important to the people of
 24       Toronto -- year after year we are voted Toronto's
 25       television station.  The people of Toronto expect


  1       certain things from us.  Our viewers expect things from
  2       us, and we have an obligation to deliver against that.
  3  2034                 The level of streetfront
  4       interactivity and, more important, accessibility --
  5       which is really part of the architecture of the Citytv
  6       model -- is something that is there.  That is the
  7       framework for moving forward in the future.
  8  2035                 I would like to say that with all of
  9       the challenges that we are faced with in our market, we
 10       are still dedicated wholly, entirely to the concept of
 11       providing good local, accessible service to our
 12       community and to our viewers and to making great
 13       television.
 14  2036                 MR. SWITZER:  To add to these
 15       answers, your question talked about the vision in the
 16       future.  There are many markers, many symbols of what
 17       we represent and what we believe are a core part of
 18       what we are and what we are doing.
 19  2037                 We intend to remain an alternative to
 20       the mainstream conventional traditional television.  We
 21       intend to provide an alternative to Toronto viewers in
 22       that primarily Citytv will be feature film driven,
 23       including of course the best Canadian feature films.
 24  2038                 Our accessibility, interactivity and
 25       localism is perhaps the third main key differentiation


  1       that sets apart who we are and where we want to go --
  2       not because these things are just necessarily good
  3       business choices, if we were to model what viewers are
  4       getting, but because we believe these are things not
  5       being done by others that we happen to have a passion
  6       for and that also can be a good business.
  7  2039                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Mr. Cardozo, it is a
  8       well-known fact that I am not the biggest proponent of
  9       buying television from elsewhere.  The reason for that
 10       is that you can't really establish an identity based on
 11       material that you acquire from a marketplace which
 12       shares material broadly among a large number of
 13       outlets.
 14  2040                 So how does a television station
 15       speak?  It speaks through its own production.  It
 16       speaks through its news.  It speaks through the
 17       programs that it creates.
 18  2041                 My vision for the future of Citytv is
 19       that we continue to add day parts of production that
 20       are in our control.  That is why we are so agonized by
 21       the particular situation in which we find ourselves,
 22       because we must overcome this immediate challenge in
 23       order to achieve the vision of our future.
 24  2042                 To the degree that we have already
 25       developed a potent news operation, an excellent on-air


  1       look and feel, and have opened day parts in the morning
  2       to the extent of 45-plus hours a week, the last great
  3       hurdle -- and I think the question underlying Chairman
  4       Dalfen's last question to me was how to attack prime
  5       time.  How do you step up to the challenge of doing
  6       with fiction what we have already done with reality?
  7  2043                 Part of it is to be able to program
  8       more and more Canadian-made films.  We have described
  9       some of the mechanisms we have in place to assist
 10       others in the making of these films, but we also want
 11       to make some of them ourselves.
 12  2044                 In addition to that, I have some
 13       thoughts.  In part I hesitated, Chairman Dalfen,
 14       because the showman in me has been a little agonized as
 15       well, because we keep giving away some of our great
 16       announcements.
 17  2045                 Brad and I and the team in Vancouver
 18       are preparing a huge event on June 6th when we were
 19       going to make the announcement that we were going to
 20       rebrand CKVU as Citytv Vancouver.  In the circumstance,
 21       we thought it was important to tell you about it first. 
 22       So we have, and we have let one cat out of our bag.
 23  2046                 As well, we have an experience of
 24       innovating things which then get picked up by our
 25       competitors.  I have the challenge of trying to


  1       describe to you what I think is a radical idea in the
  2       creation of fiction, while at the same time not wanting
  3       to say too much about it except that it is in the area
  4       of bridging real life and fiction.
  5  2047                 I know this must be difficult to
  6       grasp, but internally we use a formula to describe it. 
  7       We talk about "ficto-facto" and "facto-ficto".
  8  2048                 You know a little bit about my
  9       history, Chairman Dalfen, and you know I was involved
 10       in an interesting provocative live presentation -- one
 11       would normally call it a theatre piece -- called
 12       "Tamara", which was written by John Krizanc, one of our
 13       great Canadian writers, directed by Richard Rose.  I
 14       was the impresario, producer and helped them develop
 15       it.
 16  2049                 It is a piece which, rather than
 17       taking place on a proscenium stage in a conventional
 18       theatre with the audience seated on their bums at a
 19       distance, took place in a real house, with real rooms,
 20       in fact three floors, 20 rooms.  The audience followed
 21       the characters all over the house in real time.
 22  2050                 This play became quite famous, and it
 23       played for over nine years in Los Angeles and three and
 24       a half years in New York.  It played in Buenos Aires
 25       and in San Paulo and in Rome and Warsaw.


  1  2051                 It bridges this gap between reality
  2       and fiction.  In the same way that the proscenium stage
  3       represents artifice and putting this presentation on in
  4       a real house, in a real mansion, Citytv in a way is the
  5       antithesis of conventional television done in old
  6       fashioned studios.
  7  2052                 I have a sense I am losing you here. 
  8       It is a complex story.
  9  2053                 In any case, we would like to
 10       develop, given the right circumstances and the
 11       financial base, a form of television that grows out of
 12       this Canadian-made experiment, which I believe has
 13       enormous potential in combatting the relative formulaic
 14       television that comes out of the American system or the
 15       Canadian efforts to mimic the American system.
 16  2054                 I think this idea has a shot at
 17       taking the Americans on in prime time, but it does seem
 18       to me a little difficult to go on about it, given the
 19       immediate circumstances that we face.
 20  2055                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you for
 21       that answer.
 22  2056                 MR. SWITZER:  You realize that CPAC
 23       has been doing "ficto-facto" for years.
 24  2057                 But anyway, carry on.
 25  2058                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let's get into


  1       some of the details, and let me ask you if I am
  2       understanding your proposal right in this application.
  3  2059                 When we were talking about the
  4       possible cutbacks and the cutting of crews, and so
  5       forth, and regionalizing and mixing and matching
  6       programs, what you are saying is that if we accept the
  7       application as you are putting it forward, that will
  8       result in the least cutbacks of this kind as possible. 
  9       But if we make any additional requirements beyond what
 10       you have offered in your application, either in
 11       priority programming or local, that will likely result
 12       in the need for cutbacks.
 13  2060                 Is that the basic gist of what you
 14       are saying?
 15  2061                 MR. MILLER:  Perhaps I can again
 16       divide the two.  I think we are saying --
 17  2062                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  "Yes" or "no"
 18       would be what we are looking for.
 19  2063                 MR. MILLER:  It is not that simple,
 20       I'm afraid, because there are two elements to your
 21       question.
 22  2064                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 23  2065                 MR. MILLER:  With respect to the
 24       priority programming, we are saying if you required us
 25       to do the eight hours of priority programming, that


  1       would cause us to cut back on our local, particularly
  2       our local magazine shows.  We think that would be
  3       unfortunate; not good for us and not good for the
  4       system.
  5  2066                 In terms of our local, we are saying
  6       the 18 hours we propose -- which again, as Steve has
  7       said, is 35 per cent more than our current commitment
  8       -- is a reasonable minimum commitment in the
  9       circumstances; the circumstances being the revenue
 10       losses we expect to suffer, the savings we therefore
 11       have to find, and the fact that our competitors in this
 12       market have lower commitments, including the new
 13       licensee in Toronto that only has 14 and a half --
 14  2067                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And the prime
 15       cause of the difficulty you are facing is the decision
 16       for the two licences in Toronto.
 17  2068                 MR. MILLER:  The prime cause of the
 18       difficulty we are facing on the local commitment is the
 19       new licensing in Toronto.  Even if you had not licensed
 20       in Toronto, we would have asked for the flexibility on
 21       priority programming, and indeed did so in our initial
 22       filing.
 23  2069                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The other
 24       approach at looking at your licence renewal is that
 25       since the last licence renewal seven years ago, CHUM


  1       has grown considerably.  You have broken into the
  2       second major English language market of the country in
  3       a big way, with two stations.  You have all these other
  4       specialties.
  5  2070                 So really there should not be this
  6       talk of doom and gloom, the way the company has grown
  7       over this period.
  8  2071                 If we come back to City, your
  9       flagship should be looking at moving forward at a
 10       higher speed on priority programming.
 11  2072                 MR. MILLER:  Again, we don't share
 12       that view.
 13  2073                 If your question relates to priority
 14       programming, we as a group have come to the table with
 15       eight hours of priority programming on all our other
 16       stations, even though we were not obliged to.  While
 17       there is a difference of opinion on exactly what is an
 18       accurate measure of our reach, there is no difference
 19       on opinion that we do not meet the 70 per cent
 20       threshold for the larger multi-station groups.
 21  2074                 All we are asking for is the very
 22       flexibility that your policy permits.
 23  2075                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What the
 24       policy says is that for the largest stations, we would
 25       require them to do eight hours and essentially for the


  1       others -- and I think we named CHUM and Craig -- that
  2       we would talk to them at licence time.  So this is what
  3       is up for renewal.
  4  2076                 We didn't say we would not require
  5       you to do eight but that we would discuss this here.
  6  2077                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Cardozo,
  7       it is an important point.  We talked about it at some
  8       length yesterday, and I would like to answer your
  9       question and review it today so that you can understand
 10       that many of the magazine programs -- and we are
 11       primarily talking about those magazine programs -- that
 12       we are producing on a weekly basis and that we are
 13       running on prime time do not qualify under our
 14       interpretation of the current definitions.
 15  2078                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Why is that?
 16  2079                 MR. SWITZER:  They don't meet the
 17       test.
 18  2080                 I should say one of them does.  Of
 19       the approximately 10 hours of magazine programming we
 20       are producing each week -- we have been extremely
 21       conservative and careful in our categorization -- one
 22       program that Marcia Martin supervises, called "Startv",
 23       is a weekly magazine show that exclusively discusses
 24       Canadian stars and such and passes that specific test
 25       that the Commission included in its priority


  1       programming.
  2  2081                 The other magazine shows, to the best
  3       of our knowledge, do not meet the test of music,
  4       variety, drama, documentary, and so on.
  5  2082                 We talked about -- and I will use
  6       quotation marks for the record -- the possibility of a
  7       -- what word did we use yesterday?
  8  2083                 MR. MILLER:  Tweaking.
  9  2084                 MR. SWITZER:  "Tweaking" -- in
 10       quotation marks.  It is not our desire to do anything
 11       ever that is not genuine and reflective of what these
 12       shows are trying to do.
 13  2085                 In many cases these shows deal with
 14       single topic episodes that deal with important matters
 15       in Canadian music and fashion, and so on.
 16  2086                 So we are saddled with -- perhaps
 17       "saddled" is the wrong word.
 18  2087                 MR. MILLER:  No.  It's the right
 19       word.
 20  2088                 MR. SWITZER:  We are frustrated with
 21       the problem of trying to meet expectations with
 22       priority programming while at the same time doing this
 23       extraordinary amount of top-notch magazine programs
 24       that others, including the CFTPA, have acknowledged are
 25       of value, have merit, are contributing in many ways to


  1       the system but that do not pass the test.
  2  2089                 We are trying to balance these
  3       sometimes conflicting tradeoffs.
  4  2090                 That is why the answer isn't an easy
  5       "why can't you just do eight and do it like elsewhere". 
  6       In Toronto, with Citytv, those magazine shows currently
  7       playing in prime cause this tension.
  8  2091                 MR. ZNAIMER:  The irony is, of
  9       course, that the regulations that we don't apparently
 10       meet are really a form of pressure to get us to be the
 11       same, like everyone else, while at the same time the
 12       Commission says be different, be yourself.
 13  2092                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Can I ask you
 14       if there is a way to put this differently, and I am
 15       thinking of the decision at the end of the day.  This
 16       is just an exploratory question.  It is not at all that
 17       what we are saying to you is an offer.  We don't
 18       negotiate at these hearings.  I am just trying
 19       different possibilities.
 20  2093                 Where you have offered six hours for
 21       the first three years and seven for the remaining years
 22       of your licence, could we say something like:  There
 23       will be priority planning for six and seven years and
 24       something which you might call almost priority, which
 25       serves certain purposes.  What would those purposes be?


  1  2094                 I would like you to tell me, which
  2       would be that remaining two hours or one hour.
  3  2095                 And what would you say to us in words
  4       would get us up to that eight between priority and
  5       let's say almost priority?
  6  2096                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Cardozo,
  7       we agree with the principle, and we are here today
  8       looking for solutions and options and are open to talk
  9       to you about obviously everything.  We agree, in
 10       principle, that that is a good idea and we would be
 11       happy to discuss that.
 12  2097                 I think the exact wording, to give
 13       you comfort as to what those magazine shows should be
 14       or could be in a way that is both specific but gives us
 15       flexibility and gives the Commission comfort that they
 16       will play in prime time and that they are somehow near
 17       priority, I think we could come up with a description
 18       that would satisfy you.
 19  2098                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you have
 20       anything you can share with us by the end of the
 21       hearing, that would be helpful.
 22  2099                 What I am getting at is not the issue
 23       that it meet this little term called "priority" but
 24       that it meet the objectives of what we are trying to
 25       get out for the Canadian public, for the viewers.


  1  2100                 MR. SWITZER:  We agree with this
  2       direction, and we would be happy to follow up
  3       immediately.
  4  2101                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me ask you
  5       a few questions about local programming.  Again, we are
  6       sort of reworking some of the things we have discussed,
  7       but I am trying to move it along a little bit again,
  8       just focusing on City.
  9  2102                 Could you get back to us with a
 10       listing of your 18 local programs in Toronto.  I
 11       understand there are 4 which would be local news and 14
 12       non-local news, such as "Breakfast TV", "City Pulse at
 13       Noon", the local news, and then you have "Cityline",
 14       "Ed the Sock", and so forth.
 15  2103                 These are all running on City.  What
 16       I would like to know is which ones of these run
 17       elsewhere, either on other conventionals or on other
 18       specialties of yours, and give us a sense of the repeat
 19       factors of those shows elsewhere; if they run on any
 20       other Canadian services; and last, if they run
 21       internationally.
 22  2104                 I would like a sense of the
 23       repurposing of the local programming.
 24  2105                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes, Commissioner
 25       Cardozo, we of course will do that.  I think that


  1       amount of detail might be difficult to supply by the
  2       end of the hearing.  We can certainly give you top line
  3       by the end of the hearing and details within the ten
  4       days that had been previously discussed.
  5  2106                 Of course, much of this will be us
  6       pulling it from various pages on the regional
  7       application, to make it easy for your analysis.  We
  8       will do our best.
  9  2107                 One further addition, Commissioner,
 10       is that clearly and obviously there will be a
 11       particular overlap on some of these Canadian magazine
 12       shows between the CKVU schedule and the Citytv
 13       schedule.
 14  2108                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But they would
 15       not appear local on both.
 16  2109                 MR. MILLER:  Correct.
 17  2110                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They would be
 18       local to Toronto.
 19  2111                 MR. MILLER:  Correct.
 20  2112                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is fair to
 21       say -- maybe it is an obvious thing to say -- that a
 22       key part of the business model of the CHUM empire is
 23       this repurposing, multi-windowing of programming.
 24  2113                 I think yesterday you were talking
 25       about making a channel out of a program, where you


  1       start a program in one place that then runs elsewhere. 
  2       So there is quite a creative and a financial synergy
  3       that you have created in the stable of properties.
  4  2114                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes, it is a strength;
  5       it is an advantage.  It has been part of all of our
  6       applications.  As we discussed yesterday, in part it
  7       allows us to put as much on the screen as possible and,
  8       in the case of specialty channels, keep our wholesale
  9       rates much lower than our competitors.
 10  2115                 We are trying to exploit it, of
 11       course, at every opportunity in addition to
 12       legitimately excluding the business reasons, the
 13       creative and programming reasons, why we want as many
 14       Canadians as possible to see shows that we are
 15       producing right across the country.
 16  2116                 MR. MILLER:  Just to put it in
 17       perspective for Citytv, of the roughly 45 hours of
 18       local we are producing and airing right now, 22.5 hours
 19       of that, roughly, would be news shown only on City.
 20  2117                 There are some synergies between City
 21       and CP24, of course.  What I am saying is 22.5 hours of
 22       local news on City.  Of the remaining 22.5 hours, a
 23       majority of it would be seen elsewhere, either just
 24       national, say, in a show like "Cityline", or
 25       international in the case of our eight to ten hours of


  1       magazine shows.
  2  2118                 That is the kind of breakdown we will
  3       get into when we give you our filing.
  4  2119                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you were to
  5       look at the financial statements that you have provided
  6       to us, where you have a line for news and a line for
  7       other programming, to what extent are those expenses
  8       exclusive to City and are they shared by others?
  9  2120                 I think I understood at one point
 10       that the figures that show up on the City program
 11       expenditures are the amount that would be allotted to
 12       City, and if somebody else, like Bravo or City Pulse or
 13       CP24 is paying for part of it, that would show
 14       separately as opposed to it showing as a separate
 15       revenue item for City.
 16  2121                 Do you know what I mean?
 17  2122                 MR. SWITZER:  I think I understand
 18       the question.
 19  2123                 In the case of Citytv, what you are
 20       asking about, only the remaining costs of Canadian
 21       productions are included in the line, as discussed with
 22       the Vice-Chair yesterday.  Any sub-licensing or sharing
 23       inside the CHUM family of stations, those stations will
 24       pay their appropriate percentage of that cost, either
 25       by value, advertising ratings, and the remaining costs


  1       are those that remain on City, with the exception of
  2       the small amounts of sales to third parties which does
  3       not come off these cost totals.
  4  2124                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I want to talk
  5       now about the number of hours of local programming that
  6       you have put forward.  I think Commissioner Wylie
  7       talked about the conundrum we have as the regulator. 
  8       In the January 18th letter you outlined the amount you
  9       are doing and the amount you would have done had there
 10       been no stations licensed and the amount you would do
 11       with one station licensed.
 12  2125                 This morning on my way to the hearing
 13       I stopped at Starbucks for a coffee, and I saw that
 14       they have something that is quite similar to what you
 15       are proposing.  This is how it goes.
 16  2126                 This is your commitment from the last
 17       licence, 13.36.  This is what you will do, 18.  This is
 18       what you said you are prepared to do.  This is called
 19       the tall; this is called the short.
 20  2127                 Then you have the grande, which you
 21       would have done if there were no licences.  And this is
 22       what you say you are doing, which is the venti.
 23  2128                 Mr. Lombardi confirmed with me that
 24       venti means 20 ounces.  So this is large and 20 ounces.
 25  2129                 The guy thought it was a strange


  1       request that I would be asking for cups.  I told him
  2       what it was about, but I'm not sure he understood.
  3  2130                 Then he said, "Do you want the half
  4       measure?"
  5       --- Laughter / Rires
  6  2131                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I thought for
  7       a second and said, "Why not."  The half measure is what
  8       you would be doing if you didn't meet the 13.36.
  9  2132                 Let's say the discussion comes down
 10       to this.  You say we have never been there; the half
 11       measure is out.  You say the 13.36 is there on paper. 
 12       So it leaves me wondering how on earth we agreed to
 13       that.  But anyhow, that was then, and that is aside. 
 14       You are saying the 29 is out because we have licensed
 15       two stations.  So you are in this worst case or
 16       nightmare, or "cry me a river" scenario, whatever it
 17       is.
 18  2133                 So we are talking 18 or 45.  Our
 19       decision is going to say: CHUM is doing 45, but we, the
 20       Commission, only want them to do 18.  And you are only
 21       really saying you are committing to 18.
 22  2134                 The hard part is how do we justify
 23       this?  Eighteen is less than 45.
 24  2135                 What can we say?  Do I understand
 25       that you are saying:  Please let us off with a


  1       commitment for 18 for the tall, but you really hope you
  2       are going to be doing the venti?
  3  2136                 MR. ZNAIMER:  We are saying it will
  4       never go below the 18.  It might well end up at the one
  5       you removed, the one in the middle.
  6  2137                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The 29.
  7  2138                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Yes.
  8  2139                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So this can
  9       get back in.
 10  2140                 MR. ZNAIMER:  More important, I would
 11       think the Commission would want to be more encouraging
 12       of people who do more and freezing them into that is a
 13       guarantee that every other licensee will only ever do
 14       the minimum.
 15  2141                 To reward us for having moved forward
 16       by freezing us into that position, I think would be
 17       extremely unfortunate.
 18  2142                 MR. MILLER:  If I could add -- and I
 19       guess we have gone through this many times.
 20  2143                 To sum up, all we are asking for is
 21       what your policy said was the case, which is you don't
 22       need specific COLs on local unless licensees have
 23       failed to perform adequately in the past.
 24  2144                 We have not only not been in that
 25       position, but as the record shows, again to go back to


  1       the 13.36 hours of news, we started in 1995-96 with
  2       14.5 hours.  We grew that because we kept building our
  3       news, to a peak in 1998-99 of 23 hours and 45 minutes. 
  4       It now rests at about 22 hours, 43 minutes.
  5  2145                 All we are saying is that over the
  6       next seven years give us the flexibility, as your
  7       policy said you would give, for us to do what we need
  8       to do.
  9  2146                 Our assurance to you is that in no
 10       circumstance will it go below 18, a threshold that
 11       again is higher than CFTO Toronto, is higher than CIII
 12       Global, which is actually regional, not local, and is
 13       even higher than the new station in Toronto, Toronto
 14       One, at 14.5.
 15  2147                 Your policy said that beyond specific
 16       incentives where people have failed, the market will
 17       determine.  And that is all we are asking.
 18  2148                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So what could
 19       we say in a decision: that it is the A-team that you
 20       have committed to and that you are hoping to maintain
 21       the 45?
 22  2149                 MR. SWITZER:  I am not sure that is
 23       appropriate.  Let's talk about one or two examples just
 24       in the past year.
 25  2150                 We have in the past two years, I


  1       think, added on a significant number of hours in our
  2       morning show.  Part of that is news; part of that is
  3       non-news.  It used to start at 7:00 in the morning.  A
  4       little while ago it started at 6:30 in the morning, and
  5       I believe last year we pushed it back to a 6:00 a.m.
  6       start, at significant additional cost and resources.
  7  2151                 We did it because we wanted to grow
  8       and serve the market.  But perhaps if we were more --
  9       what is the right word?  I should choose my adjectives
 10       carefully here -- machiavellian, we would have not done
 11       that.  We would have said:  Oh my goodness, that is
 12       going to take us from 39 hours to 45 hours.  Won't that
 13       look just terrible.  Let's just delay it and do it the
 14       month -- that is not the way this group operates.  We
 15       produce television and want to grow our business.
 16  2152                 The record is so superb in terms of
 17       over-achievement of hours, we come to you wanting to
 18       have an open and complete discussion.
 19  2153                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I understand
 20       that.
 21  2154                 MR. SWITZER:  I understand you need
 22       measurables to be able to write into a decision, and we
 23       want to work with you on those kinds of solutions.  I
 24       don't think an expectation of continuing 45 hours would
 25       get us down that road.


  1  2155                 We are not trying to be evasive in
  2       terms of wanting to make very specific our desire to
  3       continue to do more.
  4  2156                 MR. MILLER:  Perhaps I could give a
  5       suggestion as to what you can write in the decision.
  6  2157                 You can write that despite revenue
  7       suggestions that suggest Citytv could lose as much as
  8       -- and Peter knows the precise number, something like
  9       $6 million a year -- and that our revenue could be down
 10       closer to $70 million from the $76 million that it is,
 11       we propose and are committed to increase our minimum
 12       local commitments by 35 per cent, to 18 hours.
 13  2158                 That would look good.
 14  2159                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you for
 15       that.
 16  2160                 Do you have any sense of which
 17       programs you might be dropping if you have to drop any?
 18  2161                 MR. SWITZER:  In a word,
 19       Commissioner, no.
 20  2162                 MR. SHERRATT:  Commissioner Cardozo,
 21       I would like to stay with your coffee cups for a
 22       minute.
 23  2163                 Currently, the terms of reference for
 24       our coffee business is to do a small cup.  We have been
 25       able to be successful enough in recent years to not


  1       only exceed the small cup but make good coffee, really
  2       good coffee, and fill the big 20-ounce cup.
  3  2164                 Right now it is factual that our
  4       revenue is going to go down.  Are we going to better
  5       serve the public by making coffee so weak that it will
  6       fill the big cup but nobody will want to drink it, or
  7       are we better off to get somewhere in the middle,
  8       wherever we can find ourselves, to do the job that the
  9       public will still like our coffee and we will still
 10       have a good business, and we will keep Starbucks in
 11       business?
 12  2165                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You are going
 13       to find a Canadian version of Starbucks, though, aren't
 14       you?
 15  2166                 I appreciate that, and I don't mean
 16       to be beating up on you for doing more than your
 17       commitment.  I am just trying to get a clear picture of
 18       what your commitment is.  It is becoming clear as we go
 19       along, but it is also in our nature to push for as much
 20       as possible for the Canadian viewer.
 21  2167                 Just one quick question on script and
 22       concept development.  Your commitment of 150,000 at
 23       City carries on for the licence period?
 24  2168                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes, it does,
 25       Commissioner.


  1  2169                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On Canadian
  2       feature films, you had said in your January 18th letter
  3       that you were firmly committed to airing 100 hours of
  4       long form Canadian films in prime time each year.
  5  2170                 The next question was:  Would you
  6       accept this as a condition of licence?
  7  2171                 Then it seemed you didn't want it
  8       quite so specific, and you said that if it was a
  9       condition of licence you would want it to say "all
 10       forms of Canadian long form features, including
 11       theatrical features, feature length documentaries,
 12       MOWs, et cetera".
 13  2172                 MR. SWITZER:  Perhaps I can add some
 14       clarity.
 15  2173                 We have in the past not been complete
 16       in our look at the way the Commission categorizes
 17       various forms of movies.  We have always included all
 18       types of movies, and that response was not in any way
 19       evasive but was to be very clear that when we say long
 20       form, feature film, movie, we are including all the
 21       areas of "movies" -- I say in quotation marks -- that
 22       we continue to support, including a small number of
 23       feature length documentaries, made for television
 24       movies and theatrically released feature films.
 25  2174                 That is our working definition of


  1       movies, and we wanted to make sure that there was no
  2       misunderstanding.
  3  2175                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That is in
  4       Categories 7C, 7D, 7E and then the category, which I
  5       think is 2A, which is a different category.
  6  2176                 MR. SWITZER:  I believe so, yes.
  7  2177                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Would you be
  8       able to say that the feature films -- the 7C, 7D, 7E --
  9       would be any percentage of that; 75 per cent?
 10  2178                 I know you don't like getting boxed
 11       into figures here.
 12  2179                 MR. SWITZER:  I think we would look
 13       back at our track record, and Diane or Ellen would
 14       certainly have the details.  There have been a small
 15       number of feature length documentaries, probably under
 16       a dozen in total.
 17  2180                 I don't think it would be productive
 18       to discuss limits or restrictions.
 19  2181                 I think if you were to look at our
 20       list, which we did file in terms of our number of
 21       theatrical feature films, our number of made for
 22       television movies and our small number of feature
 23       length documentaries over the past seven years, you
 24       would find comfort in that.
 25  2182                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You would


  1       understand that in a condition of licence we would have
  2       difficulty with the word "et cetera".  That could
  3       include a whole lot of things, including --
  4  2183                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes.  We are happy to
  5       live without any "et ceteras".
  6  2184                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On ethnic
  7       programming, I have a question that I asked earlier.  I
  8       wonder if you could share with me as to how you see
  9       that evolving over the course of the next licence.
 10  2185                 MR. SWITZER:  I would like Stephen
 11       Tapp and his creative team to talk to you about their
 12       creative plans, how the channel will grow and what's
 13       new.
 14  2186                 MR. TAPP:  As you have heard already,
 15       the ethnic programming component on City is a very
 16       important part of our schedule; doing ten hours a week
 17       with the ten different languages and cultures
 18       represented has been to date a very good representation
 19       of the community at large in terms of the community
 20       that we serve.
 21  2187                 It is something that we believe in. 
 22       It is something that we are committed to continuing.
 23  2188                 Ethnic programming for us really is
 24       part of the foundation of where Citytv came from.
 25  2189                 I don't know if Ellen Baine wants to


  1       talk about future potential programming, but I might
  2       throw it to her to see if she has anything to add.
  3  2190                 MS BAINE:  Thank you, Steve.
  4  2191                 As we mentioned this morning, because
  5       of the excellent initiatives that are going on at VU,
  6       we are going to have a look at what kind of programs
  7       they are going to be doing and hopefully import some of
  8       them into Ontario, as well.
  9  2192                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
 10  2193                 Finally, I have a question on closed
 11       captioning.  This is just a clarification.
 12  2194                 When we talk about 100 per cent of
 13       closed captioning, what it needs to be is that it is
 14       100 per cent of all news.  I believe what you have is
 15       100 per cent of your news commitment and then there was
 16       not necessarily 100 per cent of the rest.
 17  2195                 On a going forward basis, whatever
 18       the news you do, whether it is the amount you have
 19       agreed to or more, the closed captioning is 100 per
 20       cent of that.
 21  2196                 MR. MILLER:  Yes.
 22  2197                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you. 
 23       Those are my questions.
 24  2198                 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
 25  2199                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe


  1       Commissioner Wylie has a follow-up.
  2  2200                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I would like to
  3       know a little better what your interpretation of the TV
  4       policy is.  It is used in various ways.  For example,
  5       you say we don't have to do eight hours of priority
  6       programming in Toronto because we are not a
  7       multi-station group.
  8  2201                 Mr. Znaimer, you also say you are
  9       leading us to do more priority programming, because
 10       that is what you have put importance on, at the expense
 11       of local.
 12  2202                 I think I heard you say that.  Resist
 13       if I am paraphrasing incorrectly.
 14  2203                 I am not convinced that that is what
 15       the TV policy said.
 16  2204                 In paragraph 15 it said:
 17                              "The smaller multi-station
 18                              ownership groups..."
 19  2205                 Which you want to be by your
 20       calculations, or by whatever means.
 21                              "...such as CHUM...Craig and
 22                              TQS... generally offer program
 23                              schedules that differ from that
 24                              of the largest groups.  The
 25                              Commission wishes to encourage


  1                              such distinctiveness and provide
  2                              the smaller players in the
  3                              system with the flexibility to
  4                              experiment with new genres of
  5                              Canadian programming and new
  6                              ways to meet the needs of their
  7                              audiences."
  8  2206                 I think it would be fair to say
  9       throughout the years that as you increased the number
 10       of your conventional stations, you sold the idea of
 11       diversity, and so on.  But then when you bought another
 12       station or asked for a new licence, what you put
 13       forward as benefits was:  We will do the eight hours of
 14       priority programming as if we were a large
 15       multi-station group.
 16  2207                 The dilemma now is the use of the
 17       policy to say we are not a large multi-station group by
 18       any calculation, but we are doing priority programming
 19       anyway.  So you can't ask us to also do diversity in
 20       what we always sold ourselves as and entered new
 21       markets and acquired new stations on the basis of being
 22       different.
 23  2208                 The concern now is are you going to
 24       move away from different and closer to national so that
 25       what was intended in that paragraph of the policy -- it


  1       never said small station groups have to do priority
  2       programming.  It said they can be flexible and offer
  3       something different in the market.
  4  2209                 The concern is that by moving down
  5       the line of Commissioner Cardozo's cups, the goal in
  6       paragraph 15 disappears.  The messages are quite mixed.
  7  2210                 You made some choices about doing
  8       priority programming anyway, and they were accepted. 
  9       Now you say you don't have to do it in Toronto.  And
 10       where you would cut is where you were different and not
 11       like a large multi-station group, more being closer to
 12       a national and probably leading to, I suppose, a desire
 13       to reach that 70 per cent and get more and be a
 14       network, too.
 15  2211                 I don't know if Mr. Znaimer will be
 16       able to live long enough to prevent you from doing that
 17       if you start it now.
 18  2212                 MR. SWITZER:  Vice-Chair Wylie, let
 19       me begin.
 20  2213                 First of all, we are extremely
 21       blessed and privileged to have been given the
 22       opportunity to both build and to acquire stations, many
 23       stations, in the past few years, and it is indeed a
 24       privilege.
 25  2214                 It is also never our intent to


  1       misinterpret or abuse matters of policy in any way.
  2  2215                 We have talked today about many
  3       things.  I think the line that we are going down, that
  4       we went down today with Commissioner Cardozo about
  5       possibly coming up with some kind of top-up mechanism
  6       towards eight hours, would both recognize the
  7       importance of many of the local magazine shows we are
  8       doing and deal with the overall matter of priority
  9       programming.
 10  2216                 We appreciated Chairman Dalfen's
 11       opening comments yesterday when he specifically
 12       acknowledged the opportunity for innovative, unique and
 13       distinctive programming that is expected, to
 14       paraphrase, for mid-size players, and it is our
 15       responsibility to do that.
 16  2217                 In the case of some of the western
 17       stations, we volunteered to accept eight hours of
 18       priority programming because we felt in those
 19       particular transactions, either because of existing
 20       conditions or other reasons, it was the right thing to
 21       do, in the same way why we believe the right thing to
 22       do, perhaps, in the Toronto market is to acknowledge
 23       the value of these particular magazine programs,
 24       acknowledge the priority programming that we have
 25       volunteered and work toward solving this problem.


  1  2218                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I was trying to
  2       take the other side of the argument of why you are not
  3       doing eight hours of priority programming in Toronto.
  4  2219                 You will recall that eight hours of
  5       priority programming on The NewNet stations is as a
  6       result of the Victoria application.  This was part of
  7       what you put on the table as enriching your
  8       application.  So these were choices that were made.
  9  2220                 There is a bit of a contradiction.  
 10       Mr. Znaimer raised it yesterday:  You are moving us
 11       away from what we were.
 12  2221                 You said the cause of that is the
 13       licensing in Toronto, but I say convince us that it is
 14       not also your reaction; that your reaction to that is
 15       to find the flexibility.  You have given arguments why,
 16       to move away from the paragraph I just read you, and
 17       what is supposedly your mission in the broadcasting
 18       system as intended by the policy that is usually
 19       tweaked according to one's desire to make a point.
 20  2222                 MR. ZNAIMER:  At the risk of
 21       complicating things even further, while we talk about
 22       the CHUM group of over the air television stations, we
 23       in fact have two titles within them.  There is the
 24       Citytv title, and there is The NewNet title.
 25  2223                 On a continuum that might begin at a


  1       conventional network affiliate, such as we would
  2       recognize in a CTV or a Global on the one side and
  3       Citytv on the extreme other end, The NewNet stations
  4       fall somewhere in between.
  5  2224                 It is actually easier for The NewNet
  6       stations to achieve the eight hours of priority.
  7  2225                 Citytv, as a title, is more
  8       different.  The fact that we have the eight hours of
  9       priority in Vancouver is simply an inheritance issue. 
 10       When we acquired the station, we acquired the eight
 11       hours of priority.
 12  2226                 MS MARTIN:  Can I just say something
 13       re priority programming?  Maybe I can give you an
 14       example of what I think we are talking about.
 15  2227                 Our magazine shows can be frustrating
 16       when a show like "MovieTelevision", which has been a
 17       leader in promoting and celebrating feature films for
 18       over 14 years -- it is a team that does this every
 19       week.  We tell a Canadian story, at least one Canadian
 20       story.
 21  2228                 It is also a team that does specials
 22       throughout the year that contributes a great deal to
 23       what we are all about.  It balances, as well, with the
 24       movie programming that Citytv exhibits.
 25  2229                 It is a team that produces, as you


  1       have heard, a 90-minute live show that devotes itself
  2       to Canadian films and its filmmakers.  In that 90
  3       minutes we are able to provide clips on movies that
  4       most of our Canadian audiences don't see.  They don't
  5       see a lot of trailers.
  6  2230                 When you consider that this country
  7       does maybe 30 or 40 Canadian films a year and yet we
  8       devote every week features on this community, it is the
  9       contribution of this kind of show that we feel is a
 10       priority program.  It is a unit that also does specials
 11       on the Quebec film industry.
 12  2231                 We did a one-hour special with André
 13       Toupin, documenting the beginning of his film, right to
 14       the premier and then to the award winning Genies.
 15  2232                 I think contribution is a part of
 16       something that we can and should look at when we are
 17       dealing with priority programs and what City does from
 18       a unique point of view in their magazine shows.
 19  2233                 MR. MILLER:  Could I add,
 20       Commissioner Wylie, we recognize that your policy was
 21       of necessity a balancing also of competing interests. 
 22       So as we approached the proceedings we have been before
 23       you on with respect to new licence applications and
 24       acquisitions, we came to that with a spirit of trying
 25       to meet what you clearly had identified as one of your


  1       biggest priorities in your policy, and that was the
  2       priority programming obligations and, at the same time,
  3       being true to our differences.
  4  2234                 We are a smaller multi-station group. 
  5       I think while there might be some difference of opinion
  6       as to how close to that threshold we are, there is no
  7       disagreement that we are not a smaller multi-station
  8       group.
  9  2235                 As Commissioner Cardozo pointed out,
 10       while the obligations of the larger multi-station
 11       groups are very clear, the obligations of the smaller
 12       ones are not.
 13  2236                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Make your own
 14       niche over time.
 15  2237                 MR. MILLER:  Precisely.  And that is
 16       exactly what we have tried to do in being true to what
 17       we identified, and you reiterated, are some of the key
 18       objectives of the policy but also be true to ourselves.
 19  2238                 Our differences are differences on
 20       many levels, as I think we have tried to describe to
 21       you and as I think we will continue to describe to you
 22       through the rest of our presentations today.
 23  2239                 One of the elements of our
 24       differences is local.  Volume is only part of that
 25       difference.


  1  2240                 We have a great cup of coffee. 
  2       Whether it is a big one or a small one, it is still a
  3       great cup of coffee.  We are different in so many other
  4       ways, be they more culturally diverse, more long form
  5       based, in the case of NewNet more action-adventure
  6       based.
  7  2241                 We are different, and that difference
  8       remains, whether or not the cup of coffee is as large
  9       as we want it to be.
 10  2242                 To close -- and I hope I haven't
 11       paraphrased the policy incorrectly when I answered
 12       Commissioner Cardozo's question -- I remain puzzled by
 13       the dilemma we are in in terms of the minimum
 14       commitments.
 15  2243                 As I look at paragraph 63 of the
 16       policy, it says:
 17                              "All licensees will be required
 18                              to demonstrate, at licensing, or
 19                              in their licence renewal
 20                              applications, how they propose
 21                              to meet the demands and reflect
 22                              the interests of their local
 23                              audiences."
 24  2244                 We are trying to do that for you
 25       today.


  1                              "As in the past, if the
  2                              Commission determines that
  3                              licensees have failed to respond
  4                              to legitimate community needs,
  5                              appropriate action including the
  6                              imposition of specific
  7                              conditions of licence may be
  8                              taken on a case by case basis."
  9  2245                 Why our track record is important is
 10       that I don't think by any measure we fall into that
 11       category.
 12  2246                 What we are saying to you simply
 13       today is we want to retain that difference.  The size
 14       of the cup of coffee may not be as big as we want it to
 15       be, but the cup of coffee is just part of the meal. 
 16       The meal includes many other elements.
 17  2247                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  The concern I
 18       was expressing was your repeated reference to this is X
 19       more than Global, X more than CTV while you are telling
 20       us you are not yet CTV or Global; you are something
 21       else.  So of course the response is:  How different?
 22  2248                 Don't use the 15.5 hours necessarily
 23       as the baseline; use the history and how you got to
 24       where you are and how you sold yourself in the market,
 25       which was part of the reason why you got to where you


  1       are.
  2  2249                 So the reference point of the
  3       multi-station group, which you say you are not -- then
  4       the point of reference should be your niche, your
  5       mission.  What you have told us in the past as your
  6       size changed by regulatory approval, et cetera, based
  7       on certain mission that you told us you would follow or
  8       certain goals you would have, which would add diversity
  9       to the broadcasting system.
 10  2250                 That is the spirit of my comment.
 11  2251                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Wylie, we
 12       understand your point, and we will do our best to
 13       continue to do that today.
 14  2252                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 15  2253                 Commissioner Langford, you have a
 16       follow-up?  Go ahead.
 17  2254                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just one
 18       short question.
 19  2255                 Mr. Miller, is your reading of
 20       paragraph 63, which you just quoted, that our
 21       discretion is limited by the fact that that verb is in
 22       the past tense; that if what we hear from you today
 23       leads us to anticipate some inadequacy in that area, we
 24       couldn't act now; that we would have to wait seven
 25       years?  We had a clear sense, based on the historic


  1       approach that Madam Wylie was discussing, that there
  2       would be an inadequacy going forward.
  3  2256                 Are you suggesting that we are so
  4       tied, so bound by the tense of that verb that we could
  5       do nothing about it here today?
  6  2257                 MR. MILLER:  No, not at all.  I am
  7       just using your words.  I am just suggesting that our
  8       track record of exceeding your minimum commitments is
  9       your best assurance going forward, and that the size of
 10       the cup of coffee isn't the only factor in making that
 11       determination as to whether we are meeting the needs of
 12       our communities.
 13  2258                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But our duty,
 14       wouldn't you agree, like the God Janus, is to look both
 15       forwards and backwards?
 16  2259                 MR. SWITZER:  Absolutely,
 17       Commissioner Langford.  We are here for a complete and
 18       open discussion.  Written policy is, I am sure, just
 19       one of the tools you have before you.
 20  2260                 MR. SHERRATT:  Commissioner Langford,
 21       I think what they are saying is that in order to look
 22       forward, sometimes you need to look backwards.
 23  2261                 We are saying that if you look
 24       backwards at our track record, that is the best
 25       assurance you will ever have of what is going to happen


  1       in the future.
  2  2262                 I remember sitting in a hearing
  3       20-odd years ago when we were buying Citytv, and
  4       Commissioner Fabish at the time was doing the
  5       interrogation.  He looked at Alan Waters and he looked
  6       at me and back at Alan, and he started into something. 
  7       We got nervous.
  8  2263                 He said, "I have checked the record
  9       of every single hearing that you have appeared at since
 10       you first got into this business."  There was a long
 11       pause, and you thought there is something coming out of
 12       the woodwork.  He said, "I've discovered that you have
 13       fulfilled every single commitment you ever made to the
 14       regulator."
 15  2264                 That is what we intend to do.
 16  2265                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for
 17       that.
 18  2266                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 19  2267                 Commissioner Grauer.
 20  2268                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 21  2269                 I want to ask some questions on CKVU. 
 22       What I would like to do, given that we are well past
 23       our original schedule -- you have elaborated quite
 24       extensively on the benefits programming, and what I
 25       don't want to do is really talk about that.  I may have


  1       some questions on the benefits at the very end, but
  2       let's stay focused on CKVU going forward presently and
  3       going forward, apart from benefits expenditures, other
  4       hours or dollars, if we could.
  5  2270                 Maybe you can help me.  In looking at
  6       your revised financial operations, I am not quite sure
  7       I completely understand it.
  8  2271                 With CKVU you have local programming
  9       savings, 44.5 per cent.  What I am wondering is if we
 10       look at what I understand is a baseline local
 11       programming figure of 11.5 hours, 10 hours, 11 hours,
 12       something like that, where would you expect to make
 13       economies there in CKVU?
 14  2272                 MR. MILLER:  In the case of CKVU
 15       there are three things.
 16  2273                 First of all, we obviously would not
 17       cut our commitment to hours.  That is a firm
 18       commitment, and we are expecting it to become a
 19       condition of licence as a result of this hearing or a
 20       firm commitment as a result of this hearing.
 21  2274                 Second, as we indicated earlier, we
 22       have looked for a target in terms of achievements of
 23       cost savings across the CHUM television group and tried
 24       to allocate it fairly across the group, as appropriate.
 25  2275                 I can tell you we haven't spent a lot


  1       of time on any individual stations.  So if we
  2       discovered, for example, that the projections we filed
  3       were not adequate to meet the commitments we have made
  4       to you, then obviously the actuals would be different.
  5  2276                 What we can again confirm is that we
  6       have tried to make sure, based on the limited amount of
  7       time we had to prepare these revised financials, that
  8       they are, at first blush, reasonable to meet the
  9       commitments we made to you.
 10  2277                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  If I look at
 11       the CKVU revised financials, Sections 3.1 and 3.4, and
 12       City financials -- and I think it is important to look
 13       at these comparatively, because this is your group:
 14       City-Vancouver/City-Toronto -- and I look at the
 15       revenue figure, which is sort of flat and decreases at
 16       Citytv, presumably this is where you are going to feel
 17       the biggest impact.
 18  2278                 You argued that this is where you are
 19       going to feel the biggest impact of these new stations.
 20  2279                 MR. MILLER:  Correct.
 21  2280                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  And your
 22       revenue increases at CKVU.  Then your operating
 23       expenses actually decrease at both stations.
 24  2281                 If we go down to net income or loss
 25       after taxes, you appear to be generating far more


  1       profits from CKVU than from City at the end of the
  2       licence term after all of this.
  3  2282                 Is that correct?
  4  2283                 MR. MILLER:  Those numbers may come
  5       out that way.  I think, however, it is also important
  6       to note that we are starting from a base with CKVU that
  7       is $4 million lower than we had expected when we filed
  8       our transfer application.  It means it is going to take
  9       us a couple of years to go back to where we thought we
 10       were going to be in revenues.
 11  2284                 I think, as is evident from the
 12       financials for all of our stations, we don't seek to
 13       achieve a particular profitability at any station. 
 14       Each station is at its own place in the cycle of
 15       maturity, if you will.  Each has its own challenges.
 16  2285                 Obviously, part of the strength of a
 17       corporate group is that you can have, to some extent,
 18       internal cross-subsidies.
 19  2286                 What we have tried to do here is
 20       ensure that in every station -- and if you look at CFPL
 21       or CHRO, we have put in the operational and programming
 22       expenses necessary to do the job.  So that is what we
 23       have done with VU, as we have done with any other
 24       station.
 25  2287                 While numerically the answer to your


  1       question may well be that there is a difference, that
  2       is not something that we feel is inappropriate, given
  3       our need to ensure that every market is served
  4       appropriately.
  5  2288                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Commissioner Grauer,
  6       perhaps I can help clarify that a little in terms of
  7       the bottom line.
  8  2289                 The reason that you see that
  9       differential between VU and Citytv and the revised
 10       projections is primarily because it's on City that the
 11       biggest revenue losses are experienced.
 12  2290                 So the revenue losses that we see
 13       going out to year 7 that impact on City, and
 14       effectively go right through the bottom line, are in
 15       excess of $10 million.
 16  2291                 If you compare with our original
 17       projections that we filed pre the licensing of two new
 18       stations in Toronto, you would see that the bottom line
 19       for City is more in line with the revised projections
 20       for VU.
 21  2292                 Essentially, the real reason is that
 22       City experiences the largest impact in revenue losses.
 23  2293                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 24  2294                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Grauer,
 25       could I just add one further point of clarification,


  1       because I think this is also important.
  2  2295                 You talked about net income after
  3       taxes.  That is also after interest payments.  Interest
  4       is a new thing to us; debt is a new thing to us.
  5  2296                 We have chosen in this model to take
  6       the appropriate debt that this division has and spread
  7       it evenly between all the television stations using
  8       revenue, I believe, as a proxy for this particular
  9       model.
 10  2297                 You will see that the interest
 11       charges in the CKVU model begin at roughly $1 million a
 12       year and work their way down.
 13  2298                 Clearly, I don't have to point out
 14       that that would perhaps be 10 per cent of the interest
 15       costs that we would be paying to continue this.
 16  2299                 So in that way, not that I would
 17       suggest that it is artificial; it isn't.  But because
 18       of our choice of the way we have shared the interest
 19       burden, that also affects the particular bottom line of
 20       VU.
 21  2300                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 22  2301                 I wonder if you could tell me where
 23       we are with -- I understand you are waiting to launch
 24       the new programming and branding on the 6th of June. 
 25       It is unfortunate, because I would have thought licence


  1       renewal hearings were an appropriate time to be talking
  2       about what you will be doing going forward.
  3  2302                 Perhaps we just have to work with
  4       what we have here, and maybe you can help me with this.
  5  2303                 What we have here -- we had your
  6       program grid that you filed, and I also have one that I
  7       got off the Web site.
  8  2304                 Essentially, we are in the old
  9       licence term, so you are still operating under the old
 10       COLs with respect to local programming and whatnot?
 11  2305                 Is that correct?
 12  2306                 MR. MILLER:  That's correct.
 13  2307                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  There is not
 14       really too much to talk about.
 15  2308                 How many hours of local news are you
 16       currently doing?
 17  2309                 MR. PHILLIPS:  We are currently at 10
 18       hours, 57 minutes up to 15.5 in our new schedule.
 19  2310                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Pardon me?
 20  2311                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Up to 15.5 in our new
 21       schedule.
 22  2312                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  The 15.5 is
 23       actually hours that are being financed by public
 24       benefits, the incremental hours.  Is that correct?
 25  2313                 MR. MILLER:  I don't have all that in


  1       front of me, but the public record on the VU decision
  2       is clear on that.
  3  2314                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  If I look at
  4       your schedule -- and correct me if I am wrong.  I had
  5       to do this myself.  I think when you file some of the
  6       information that you have discussed with both
  7       Commissioner Wylie and Commissioner Cardozo, it will be
  8       helpful.
  9  2315                 You have group acquired programming,
 10       which is about 22.5 hours, if I look through Cityline,
 11       Book Television, Startv, MovieTelevision, and whatnot,
 12       and that is coded local in Toronto.
 13  2316                 So it is like Toronto local
 14       programming?
 15  2317                 MR. MILLER:  It is local to Toronto,
 16       because it is produced locally in Toronto.
 17  2318                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Then we have
 18       3.5 hours a week of a show called "Rogers New Reality",
 19       that is apparently produced by CKVR.
 20  2319                 Is that correct?
 21  2320                 MR. PHILLIPS:  That is correct.
 22  2321                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  What I can't
 23       seem to find on the program grid -- and perhaps you
 24       could point it out to me.  If you are operating under
 25       the current licence, it requires 24 hours and 30


  1       minutes of children's programming.
  2  2322                 Is that correct?
  3  2323                 MR. MILLER:  That was an expectation
  4       that we didn't feel it was appropriate for us to
  5       concern ourselves with, given the reasons that we
  6       discussed yesterday.
  7  2324                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  If I am trying
  8       to get a sense of your programming going forward, apart
  9       from benefits, you are proposing to maintain the same
 10       level of local programming.
 11  2325                 MR. MILLER:  No.  I'm sorry I am not
 12       here with the details to deal with the benefits versus
 13       non-benefits.  I can get that information if it is
 14       important.  I just don't have it in front of me.
 15  2326                 I think we indicated clearly in our
 16       application for transfer that of the new local
 17       commitments, both news and non-news, some were the
 18       results of the benefit monies; some were things that
 19       were, in a sense, intangible benefits.  So the benefits
 20       of our acquisition both included the tangible benefits
 21       of the money, some of which went to those increases in
 22       programming, and the intangible benefits of agreeing to
 23       bring it up.
 24  2327                 If you need to get into that
 25       division, I will look for it for you.  I just don't


  1       have it in front of me right now.
  2  2328                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  What I am
  3       trying to do is really get an understanding of your
  4       plans for CKVU going forward, separate and apart from
  5       benefits.
  6  2329                 What I think is really important to
  7       understand here is these magazine shows -- and this is
  8       where it gets very confusing, because there has been
  9       discussion about cutting the local programming in
 10       Toronto and some question of putting these magazine
 11       shows that were in some jeopardy, given the licensing
 12       of the two stations -- and yet at the same time they
 13       form a very central core of the programming for CKVU.
 14  2330                 I am finding it very difficult, and I
 15       have found it very difficult to understand:  Are these
 16       local Toronto shows?  Are they part of your Canadian
 17       programming for these two stations?  If so, they can't
 18       be intensely locally reflective of Toronto, and some of
 19       them are marketed internationally.
 20  2331                 Again, it is not to be critical at
 21       all of the content of the shows but to really get a
 22       sense of what is so intensely local now about CKVU that
 23       is different from what it was, and where these Toronto
 24       local shows fit into the CKVU schedule.
 25  2332                 If we are operating under the


  1       existing licence, there is an expectation of the
  2       children's programming.  So if you don't feel it is
  3       appropriate to go forward with that, perhaps there is
  4       something else that might be appropriate to go forward
  5       with.
  6  2333                 MR. MILLER:  Commissioner Grauer, we
  7       are in a transition here.  I think the Commission saw,
  8       for example, when it accepted Global's applications for
  9       acquisition of CHCH and CHEK and the other WIC
 10       stations, that there was a transition period.
 11  2334                 In fact, if I remember correctly, the
 12       period between the approval of that transfer and their
 13       ultimate relaunching is a longer period than we have.
 14  2335                 We are trying to provide you with as
 15       much detail as possible, given where we are in the
 16       transition process and given, quite frankly, legitimate
 17       market forces as to what we want to do to relaunch this
 18       station, to maximize the attention we can draw to it
 19       and maximizing its revenues.
 20  2336                 We can talk to you about our local
 21       programming plans.  That is what our team is here to
 22       talk to you about.  From an operation level, our team
 23       here does not sit down and compartmentalize between
 24       benefits that are tangible and benefits that are
 25       intangible.


  1  2337                 If you want to have that discussion,
  2       I can go into the numbers.  But quite frankly, I am not
  3       sure that that is useful.  If you want to understand
  4       what we are going to do with the station, based on the
  5       commitments we made, both tangible and intangible, that
  6       is what our team can describe for you.
  7  2338                 We are very excited about that, and
  8       we think we have great news to tell.
  9  2339                 We are trying to give you as much
 10       information as we can at the time period we are at. 
 11       That is why we filed that reporting letter on Friday,
 12       which again went into details on both the benefits and
 13       the tangible and intangible.
 14  2340                 Finally, I would add that in this
 15       transition it is kind of like launching a new station
 16       but launching a new station with an installed base.  I
 17       think if you compare the level of detail we have
 18       provided to you with new applications, it is much more
 19       than that.  If you compare it with normal renewal, it
 20       is less.  We are in that awkward kind of middle.
 21  2341                 I apologize that we haven't been able
 22       to give you everything that obviously you were seeking.
 23  2342                 If you do want to know what our
 24       programming plans are, our team is anxious to tell you.
 25  2343                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  We are going to


  1       break now.
  2  2344                 Why it is important -- and certainly
  3       I think we made it clear in the transfer decision that
  4       we were going to talk about these things at licence
  5       renewal.
  6  2345                 I think it is very important to be
  7       able to identify the incrementality of the benefits as
  8       opposed to the regular ongoing plans.
  9  2346                 When did you start operating the
 10       station, programming it?
 11  2347                 MR. MILLER:  We took possession
 12       October 31st.  Up until that point there was CHUM
 13       programming on the station, but we didn't make those
 14       programming decisions.  They were made by the trustee.
 15  2348                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 16  2349                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you want a
 17       pre-lunch comment?
 18  2350                 MR. SWITZER:  We would like to talk
 19       about our obligation as part of that transfer to
 20       discuss incrementality.  We would like to do that in
 21       great detail in terms of all the things that we said
 22       and have filed.  We will review those, we hope to your
 23       satisfaction, whenever you wish.
 24  2351                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  2352                 We will resume at 2:15.


  1       --- Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250
  2       --- Upon resuming on at 1425 / Reprend à 1425
  3  2353                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Order, please.  À
  4       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
  5  2354                 Commissioner Grauer.
  6  2355                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
  7  2356                 What I want to do is give you a
  8       context for my questions.  Perhaps I should have done
  9       this beforehand.  Again, it was the discussion I had
 10       last year with CTV and Global.
 11  2357                 Fundamentally, I believe all
 12       Canadians have a right to expect a return in both
 13       cultural and economic terms on the confidence
 14       investment shown by Canadian citizens in the Canadian
 15       broadcasting industry.
 16  2358                 I understand that with private sector
 17       companies often the cultural responsibilities are
 18       difficult to rationalize when economics come into play. 
 19       You have obligations to your shareholders, and I think
 20       we understand that.  It is our job to get the most we
 21       can and find that correct balance between the return to
 22       your shareholders and the return to the public.
 23  2359                 That is the context in which really
 24       we are asking questions, and I am particularly
 25       interested in pursuing the questions with respect to


  1       CKVU.
  2  2360                 If I go to page 22 of your
  3       application in which you were asked your strategies to
  4       develop new Canadian programming and new Canadian
  5       talent for CKVU, in particular, what is listed are the
  6       benefits only.
  7  2361                 I am wondering if you could elaborate
  8       on any other specific plans, apart from the benefits,
  9       that you have to develop new Canadian programming and
 10       new Canadian talent.
 11  2362                 MR. SWITZER:  Let me begin,
 12       Commissioner.  I will do my best to address that
 13       question and touch upon some questions that were
 14       perhaps left with incomplete answers before the break.
 15  2363                 We are here to talk about the
 16       programs, about details, about plans that will be on
 17       the air in the months ahead, and we are of course happy
 18       to go into that.
 19  2364                 Let me add some context so that I can
 20       frame where we are going.
 21  2365                 We filed last week a 10 or 12-page
 22       report to give the Commission an update on the status
 23       of where we are with our CKVU plans.  It dealt, to the
 24       best of our ability, with comments on programming,
 25       community reflection, and all sorts of other matters.


  1  2366                 We have brought the team here today
  2       to talk about specifics as to the 27.5 hours of
  3       programming that was discussed and promised by us in
  4       the transfer and referred to in the transfer approval.
  5  2367                 That transfer decision, if memory
  6       serves, made all kinds of references to things that
  7       would be discussed at the upcoming renewal.  One of
  8       them was in fact discussions of our ability to accept
  9       as conditions of licence certain promises, particularly
 10       in respect to the 27.5 hours of local programming.  We
 11       are here today to discuss that with you and make those
 12       promises.
 13  2368                 Also in that transfer decision was
 14       responsibility by us to the Commission that was
 15       specifically discussed where we have an obligation to
 16       prove incrementality in terms of the promises made and
 17       in fact the commitments made.  That transfer decision
 18       talked about our responsibility to, in a verifiable
 19       accountable way, in an audited way, report on that
 20       progress.  We have begun discussions with staff.
 21  2369                 The transfer decision -- I don't have
 22       the words exactly in front of me -- refers to a process
 23       where we effectively have an obligation to satisfy
 24       staff that we are doing that, and we are here today to
 25       let you know that we of course stand behind that, as


  1       well.
  2  2370                 The creative team is here today,
  3       Brad, Prem and others, to put flesh on the bones,
  4       although we are several months away from launching our
  5       schedules, to make as specific and real as possible in
  6       a living, breathing way, the specifics of some of the
  7       very innovative and distinctive things that are planned
  8       and that will be on the air in the weeks and months
  9       ahead in Vancouver at CKVU.
 10  2371                 We can go along any of these areas. 
 11       I am trying to add some context on our side.
 12  2372                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I appreciate
 13       that.  I have a couple of questions with respect to the
 14       benefits particularly, which I would like to leave to
 15       the end.
 16  2373                 If you are saying that you don't have
 17       anything to add to what is in the benefits, that's
 18       fine, we will move along and I will get to the benefits
 19       later.  Is that what I understand?
 20  2374                 MR. SWITZER:  That's it exactly. 
 21       That's why we are here today.  That's what we said a
 22       few short months ago when we applied for the transfer. 
 23       We are here today to be specific about those benefits
 24       and programs, to the best of our ability.
 25  2375                 Those are our promises, and we are


  1       here and fully expect, in particular to the 27.5 hours,
  2       to discuss making those conditions of licence.
  3  2376                 We are, of course, in an unusual
  4       situation in that although we did provide some programs
  5       to the station, beginning September 1, 2001, that
  6       programming was at the discretion and the decision of
  7       the trustee.  We took over actual operation October
  8       31st-November 1st and of course completely had to start
  9       fresh in that it was an unusual situation where all the
 10       programs, all the rights, all the inventory, all the
 11       library, everything connected with that station left on
 12       the same day and moved across the street.
 13  2377                 So we have, at a very quick pace,
 14       worked with local staff and of course asked more
 15       questions than anything else, and we are here now,
 16       early in May, to talk to you about all the good things.
 17  2378                 If that is later on in your
 18       discussion, of course that's your convenience.
 19  2379                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  What I really
 20       want to do is have those discussions separate because
 21       they are separate.  It is really essentially public
 22       money that is funding the incremental programming.
 23  2380                 So what I wanted to do was have two
 24       separate discussions: one a licence renewal as it would
 25       be with respect to your base level programming and what


  1       we might expect to see; and then the benefits
  2       programming separately.
  3  2381                 What is important to me is that this
  4       is a public process.  It is not just important that I
  5       understand it and the Panel understands it, but the
  6       public as well.  That is why I thought it would be more
  7       useful -- because I got confused and I spent a lot of
  8       time with all these documents -- if we could have them
  9       separately.
 10  2382                 I don't want to belabour this.
 11  2383                 MR. SWITZER:  I will be very precise. 
 12       We share your view that the process should be
 13       transparent, obviously; it must be.  The public has to
 14       be served.  I can reconfirm that our promises for the
 15       new licence are exactly as promised a few short months
 16       ago as part of our transfer.
 17  2384                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 18  2385                 MR. MILLER:  I think perhaps,
 19       Commissioner Grauer, where there may be some confusion
 20       is the difference between tangible and intangible
 21       benefits.
 22  2386                 We acquired a station that was a $70
 23       million a year station, which we estimated would come
 24       down to something like $27 million.  It has now come
 25       down to something like $22 million.


  1  2387                 One of the intangible benefits is the
  2       fact the Commission got a solid operator to acquire a
  3       station, to make solid commitments.  So it becomes
  4       difficult in our mind to separate the discussion as you
  5       want us to do.
  6  2388                 While incrementality, this process we
  7       are having with staff, is absolutely essential -- and
  8       we believe firmly we will demonstrate that -- the
  9       discussion on programming includes both tangible and
 10       intangible.
 11  2389                 That is why we can't separate it the
 12       way I guess you were planning to do.  To us, it is all
 13       part of the benefit -- not benefits, but benefit -- if
 14       you will of the approval of our acquisition of CKVU.
 15  2390                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you,
 16       Mr. Miller.
 17  2391                 One of the things that struck me in
 18       reading your supplementary brief with respect to Citytv
 19       -- and this again goes back to the hours of programming
 20       that are on the CKVU schedule that are local Toronto
 21       programs and very proudly on your part championing your
 22       local Toronto vision and being intensely local.
 23  2392                 On page 31 of your supplementary
 24       brief --
 25  2393                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Grauer, is


  1       that the supplementary brief for CKVU or for Citytv?
  2  2394                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  It is the CHUM
  3       supplementary brief.
  4  2395                 On page 29 you say:
  5                              "The Commission's recent
  6                              approval of CHUM licences for
  7                              CIVI Victoria and acquisition of
  8                              CKVU Vancouver has allowed not
  9                              only for the extension of CHUM's
 10                              local programming emphasis and
 11                              distinctive programming style to
 12                              these markets, but will
 13                              ultimately strengthen CHUM's
 14                              Ontario stations."
 15  2396                 On page 31, under Citytv, you say:
 16                              "The addition of CKVU to the
 17                              CHUM family of stations will do
 18                              much to return Citytv to
 19                              financial health and strengthen
 20                              its priority programming and
 21                              local commitments over the
 22                              licence term through more
 23                              effective amortization costs."
 24  2397                 And a little bit later on:
 25                              "...the increasing ability of


  1                              CKVU to carry a greater share of
  2                              programming costs."
  3  2398                 When I look at all of this in the
  4       context of not having a program schedule/grid/draft
  5       program for the going forward new licence term and the
  6       difficulty you have in separating the tangible and the
  7       intangible benefits, what is essentially a very low
  8       level, going in, of local programming that is not being
  9       funded by benefits expenditures -- it is 11 hours --
 10       and then to see that it appears at least -- or I have
 11       drawn the conclusion and I would be delighted to have
 12       you disabuse me of this -- that these stations are
 13       designed to subsidize the operations of your Ontario
 14       stations and the subsidization of what are intensely
 15       local Toronto programs that appear amortized across the
 16       two stations and certainly across your network.
 17  2399                 Am I unfair?  Is that an unfair
 18       conclusion, perhaps?
 19  2400                 MR. SWITZER:  With respect, yes, I
 20       believe it is.  We will satisfy the Commission, after
 21       further discussions with staff on the incrementality.
 22  2401                 But to totally dismiss 27.5 hours as
 23       a benefit I don't think does justice to what we bring
 24       to the table and to the specifics that we promise.
 25  2402                 I believe in our transfer benefit, as


  1       part of those benefits for non-news programming -- that
  2       is outside of the roughly 15.5 hours a week of news;
  3       roughly 15.5 and 12.5, plus or minus half an hour -- we
  4       had put aside as a benefit $3.6 million over the course
  5       of seven years.
  6  2403                 That is several hundred thousand
  7       dollars per year, not the millions of dollars per year
  8       that clearly is going to take to fund and is in the
  9       model that is going to take to fund all the shows that
 10       this group wants to talk to you about.
 11  2404                 Although we cannot -- and it is not
 12       appropriate, I believe -- talk about that level of
 13       detail in that we are in discussions with staff and we
 14       have an obligation to prove to you in a verifiable way
 15       that it is incremental, 27.5 hours of exciting,
 16       innovative new local programming is something that we
 17       are here to both put flesh on, to celebrate, and to
 18       absolutely stand up straight and tall and say this is
 19       going to be the most fantastic, innovative, new, truly
 20       local reflective television station in the country.
 21  2405                 I think to try to discount that as
 22       not something that is part of what we are here to talk
 23       about in this renewal is, with respect, not
 24       appropriate.
 25  2406                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Partly what I


  1       wanted to talk about and get a better understanding of
  2       -- perhaps I can put it that way -- is that these are
  3       your words in terms of how you describe the addition of
  4       these stations.
  5  2407                 The second thing is -- and it goes to
  6       what you discussed with everybody on the Panel so far
  7       -- you have argued here vehemently that in fact you
  8       have been dealt a very severe and damaging blow with
  9       the addition of the licensing of the two stations.
 10  2408                 You have not too long had the
 11       addition of two stations in the Vancouver market, a
 12       great privilege, with relatively low obligations on
 13       them compared to the privilege of having two stations
 14       in the Vancouver market.
 15  2409                 More important, much of the
 16       programming that is here -- and this is not to devalue
 17       the programming.  Much of it is Toronto local
 18       programming --
 19  2410                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Grauer,
 20       may I interrupt you?
 21  2411                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Yes.
 22  2412                 MR. SWITZER:  The schedule we did
 23       file is the current transition schedule.  Of course, it
 24       has current programs from Toronto.  In a few short
 25       weeks, in a few short months, the new CKVU launches


  1       with 27.5 hours of local programs, and some of those
  2       will be repeated.  They will force out of the Vancouver
  3       schedule much of that Toronto programming.
  4  2413                 The best of it should, and will,
  5       cross over.  The group is here today to talk to you
  6       about those plans.
  7  2414                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Mr. Switzer, I
  8       don't have anything in front of me.
  9  2415                 MR. SWITZER:  I understand.
 10  2416                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  We don't have a
 11       schedule.  We are going forward with the new licence.
 12       You want a seven-year term, but I have had nothing from
 13       which to assess in sort of concrete terms your plans.
 14  2417                 What I did was I read the
 15       applications and I read all of the material.  That is
 16       my difficulty.
 17  2418                 MR. SWITZER:  You are right in that
 18       the measurable criteria are the 15 hours-and-change of
 19       news, the particular multicultural programming
 20       commitments and the other non-news programs, which we
 21       are here today, to the best of our ability, to flesh
 22       out.
 23  2419                 To have provided you with a schedule
 24       that said something was going on in the afternoon and
 25       then it goes on in the morning, or something were to go


  1       on late at night, it would not be useful to either of
  2       us.
  3  2420                 The actual people who are making the
  4       programs are here to talk about that.
  5  2421                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Why don't I go
  6       through some of the other things.
  7  2422                 MR. MILLER:  With all due respect, I
  8       can't leave some of the other comments and observations
  9       you made on the record without commenting on them.
 10  2423                 You have made the comment that you
 11       felt the obligations and commitments we made were
 12       relatively low.  We disagree with that.  We think they
 13       are entirely appropriate for the circumstances.
 14  2424                 We have talked already about this
 15       turnaround situation.  We have talked already about the
 16       fact that you have more information before you than if
 17       this had been a new licence, which almost it is.  It is
 18       like it is a new licence.
 19  2425                 In terms of the wording, I can
 20       understand your perspective, reading the wording as you
 21       do, as a Vancouver Regional Commissioner.  To be clear
 22       on that, we are not saying here that VU will amortize
 23       the Toronto programming costs.  That is not the main
 24       point here.
 25  2426                 The main point here is that all of


  1       our programming that is exhibited nationally, of which
  2       a tiny percentage of it is the magazine shows that we
  3       have from Toronto, will benefit from our ability to
  4       amortize program costs across a greater and larger
  5       conventional group.
  6  2427                 The benefit to CHUM and the benefit
  7       to the broadcasting system is we can amortize those
  8       costs more effectively, increase the quality of those
  9       programs, and over time, as we want to get into it,
 10       have more shows from Vancouver that get shown across
 11       the country.
 12  2428                 We have plans for shows of that
 13       nature.  We have plans to make sure that the tremendous
 14       track record that we have for B.C. based production
 15       finds more windows across the country.  Those are the
 16       kinds of benefits that are intangible but we think very
 17       significant.
 18  2429                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 19  2430                 Perhaps we could go on to something
 20       else.
 21  2431                 I just noticed in your supplementary
 22       brief, at page 7 -- I think this is of the CKVU
 23       supplementary brief -- you mention that CKVU is
 24       available to 3 million households in British Columbia.
 25  2432                 I wondered how you came up with that


  1       figure.
  2  2433                 MR. MILLER:  I believe that is a
  3       combination of over-the-air and cable carriage up the
  4       B.C. coast.
  5  2434                 MR. PHILLIPS:  That is what it would
  6       represent, just the total potential audience that we
  7       have through our transmitter at Salt Spring Island and
  8       then up island.  That is how we serve the area.  That
  9       is the available audience to us.
 10  2435                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Three million
 11       households?
 12  2436                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Certainly not
 13       households, no; population.
 14  2437                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Population,
 15       three.  That would be most of British Columbia, I
 16       think, wouldn't it?
 17  2438                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Our coverage area
 18       covers, obviously, the entire Lower Mainland.  We may
 19       need to seek some clarification on that number.
 20  2439                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Yes, would you.
 21  2440                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Our broadcast area if
 22       the Lower Mainland.
 23  2441                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  And Vancouver
 24       Island.
 25  2442                 MR. PHILLIPS:  That's right.


  1  2443                 MS HUBBLE:  Perhaps I could add the
  2       population figure for the Vancouver extended market is
  3       about 3 million, and the entire province is 4 million
  4       people.
  5  2444                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  So it is
  6       people, not households; thank you.
  7  2445                 On page 7 of your deficiency letter
  8       you identify 16 hours of production sourced from
  9       "Sleeping Giant".
 10  2446                 I wonder if you could tell me what
 11       that programming is.
 12  2447                 MR. MILLER:  It might be appropriate
 13       for us to give you an update on where we are with
 14       "Sleeping Giant".
 15  2448                 Peter Palframan is in the best
 16       position to do that.
 17  2449                 MR. PALFRAMAN:  Commissioner Grauer,
 18       the reality of "Sleeping Giant" today is that they are
 19       in the process of winding up their business.  There are
 20       a number of productions that are at various stages, and
 21       there is a small core staff that are taking those to
 22       completion.
 23  2450                 Those should all be delivered within
 24       the next nine months or so.
 25  2451                 In the last 12 months they have not


  1       taken on any new production work.
  2  2452                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.  On
  3       page 11 of your application, at 3.3(a), you talk about
  4       sales.  I am wondering what you mean when you refer to
  5       regional, primarily British Columbia, sales as opposed
  6       to national, selective and local.
  7  2453                 I am in a constant struggle to really
  8       understand all these different categories of
  9       advertisers.
 10  2454                 MR. SWITZER:  We are going to
 11       actually reread the exact words so that we don't add
 12       any further confusion today, Commissioner.
 13       --- Pause
 14  2455                 MR. PHILLIPS:  I would tell you that
 15       our sales approach is regional.  That is one of the
 16       strategies that we are deploying to bring as much
 17       retail business as we can.
 18  2456                 We have now a regional sales manager. 
 19       We have regional sales representation representing
 20       Vancouver and Victoria.
 21  2457                 MR. SWITZER:  Let me continue,
 22       Commissioner, because I am not sure which part of that
 23       paragraph may not be clear.
 24  2458                 Certainly for us one of the most
 25       important parts, if I have this correct, in 3.3(a) is


  1       our statement that CKVU does not have any network
  2       sales.
  3  2459                 Is that what you were referring to?
  4  2460                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  No.  It was
  5       really trying to understand how you are going to sell
  6       your advertising and how I can look at it when I get
  7       the financial summaries.
  8  2461                 You have national advertisers who
  9       will be buying time.  Then there is this
 10       local/regional.  You don't file separate reports for
 11       local/regional, I don't think -- unless you do.
 12  2462                 What would differentiate them?  Are
 13       they buying something different?  Is it a different
 14       advertiser?  Are they, for instance, buying Victoria
 15       and Vancouver as opposed to just Vancouver or Victoria?
 16  2463                 Could it be any advertiser?  Do you
 17       know what I am saying?
 18  2464                 MR. SWITZER:  Of course.
 19  2465                 Mr. Kirkwood or Mr. Hamilton, or
 20       others, may want to answer that.
 21  2466                 MR. HAMILTON:  I will try to address
 22       your question, Commissioner.
 23  2467                 In terms of how we sell to national
 24       advertisers -- we represent national sales -- we
 25       offered them the Vancouver/Victoria DMA.  That is


  1       considered one market.  National advertisers who want
  2       to reach that market would talk to us relative to
  3       rating point deliveries, and we would sell the market
  4       of Vancouver/Victoria as it is seen as one market.
  5  2468                 We don't deliver the whole province,
  6       by the nature of our signal.  So really when we talk to
  7       an advertiser for the British Columbia marketplace, we
  8       concentrate on our deliveries in Vancouver/Victoria.
  9  2469                 I think when Brad alludes to regional
 10       sales, that is the term they have given it within their
 11       region of selling it within the Vancouver marketplace. 
 12       That is probably the confusion.
 13  2470                 It is very clear what we offer to
 14       advertisers is the Vancouver/Victoria market.  We don't
 15       get into the interior of B.C.  We don't get audiences
 16       from that market.  We are truly selling
 17       Vancouver/Victoria.
 18  2471                 MR. PHILLIPS:  That's true.  We are
 19       trying to offer as convenient a process as possible for
 20       our advertisers.  If they want to buy advertising just
 21       on CKVU, they can do that.  If they want to buy it on
 22       CKVU and the NewVI, they can do that; or just the
 23       NewVI.  All options are available.
 24  2472                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Would that be
 25       the regional-local split, then?


  1  2473                 MR. PHILLIPS:  The term regional is
  2       what we use to describe it to our customer base and to
  3       our clients.  We have a regional sales department that
  4       is representing both stations.
  5  2474                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
  6  2475                 Benefits.  Would you like me to ask
  7       my questions first, or would you like to tell me what
  8       you are going to be doing with the benefits programming
  9       first?
 10  2476                 MR. SWITZER:  Any way you wish,
 11       Commissioner.  Please continue.
 12  2477                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Why don't I ask
 13       the questions.
 14  2478                 Will any of your ethnic or third
 15       language programming be brokered?  I guess that is not
 16       necessarily related to benefits.
 17  2479                 Will any of the ethnic programming be
 18       brokered?
 19  2480                 MR. MILLER:  We haven't made any
 20       final decisions yet.  Again, we have different models.
 21  2481                 In Vancouver, as we have indicated,
 22       we are going to have an in-house production unit.  We
 23       also made commitments to co-production or independent
 24       production.  But we haven't made any final decision as
 25       to whether ultimately some of it might be brokered.


  1  2482                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Will you retain
  2       rights ownership of any of the programming?
  3  2483                 What I am really trying to get at
  4       here is how will you treat programming that has been
  5       partly or fully financed with benefits money with
  6       respect to any potential revenues or rights issues?
  7  2484                 MR. MILLER:  I can tell you we
  8       haven't drilled down to that level of detail.  We are
  9       aware of the different models that exist in terms of
 10       ethnic programming.
 11  2485                 With some independently produced
 12       ethnic programming for some broadcasters, the copyright
 13       goes to the broadcaster.  We understand the reason for
 14       that.  That is not our preferred approach.  But again,
 15       we haven't made any final decisions.
 16  2486                 I guess the test that you are
 17       alluding to will be part of what we will have to
 18       discuss with staff in terms of incrementality.
 19  2487                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Right.  I think
 20       the issue is if it is public money, it should be
 21       returning back into the system in one form or another.
 22  2488                 With respect to the benefits -- and
 23       you have alluded to the transfer decision -- we noted
 24       your willingness to file annual reports regarding
 25       safeguards and benefits.  Specifically, the Commission


  1       expected that such audited reports would ensure that
  2       the financial contributions are clearly incremental to
  3       the expenditures that would have been made by CKVU over
  4       the next seven years.
  5  2489                 In its intervention the Directors
  6       Guild proposed two methods to establish what CKVU would
  7       have spent on Category 7, Drama Programming, in order
  8       to ensure that CHUM's benefits relating to
  9       B.C.-produced drama and documentary are truly
 10       incremental.
 11  2490                 I wonder if you have any comments on
 12       the Directors Guild proposal at this point.
 13  2491                 MR. MILLER:  First of all, until we
 14       hear their oral intervention, I don't think we have
 15       anything to add from our written reply.
 16  2492                 Second, this issue was to some extent
 17       canvassed in the decision, and I think that is what the
 18       process with staff is going to be all about.
 19  2493                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 20  2494                 All right.  It's show time.  Maybe
 21       you can tell me a little bit about what we can expect
 22       to see going forward.
 23  2495                 MR. SWITZER:  Brad Phillips is the
 24       Vice-President and General Manager of CKVU, and he has
 25       been waiting hours to talk to you about the plans for


  1       this station.
  2  2496                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I know.  I
  3       thought I would get all the rest of the business out of
  4       the way so now you can tell me what it is your are
  5       going to be doing.
  6  2497                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Thank you.  It's great
  7       to be here.  Hopefully we can, in an informal way, add
  8       a little colour and levity to the proceedings with some
  9       of the dynamic plans and excitement that we have
 10       happening in Vancouver.
 11  2498                 We have four of our management team
 12       here today.  I can tell you that we represent 140
 13       people back in Vancouver that are extremely motivated,
 14       extremely excited to get going on our new look, our new
 15       vitality.
 16  2499                 We are in the middle of renovations
 17       to our building to transform it into the new shooting
 18       style that we want to have.  We have major marketing
 19       plans set for the summer.  We have a major launch event
 20       to introduce it to advertisers and VIPs from the
 21       community planned for next month.  We are contracting
 22       and have contracted with new talent for some of the new
 23       local programming that we are going to be introducing
 24       this summer.
 25  2500                 In effect, we are transforming CKVU


  1       from a network affiliate to a local, independent,
  2       exciting television station.
  3  2501                 We are revamping our 6:00 p.m. and
  4       our 11:00 p.m. newscasts.  We are going to give it a
  5       completely new City-style look.  We are making
  6       substantial investment in that.
  7  2502                 We have, as has been alluded to
  8       earlier on, exciting new daily programming planned: a
  9       local interview, entertainment, community-involved show
 10       that will take us live into many parts of the
 11       community, all parts of the community over time.
 12  2503                 Then we have a schedule of
 13       multicultural programming that we are developing and
 14       excited to launch.
 15  2504                 If I can take a little bit more time,
 16       perhaps to expand on that a little bit I will turn it
 17       over to our Manager, Community Affairs, Public Affairs,
 18       Prem Gill and to our Director of News and Daily
 19       Programming, George Froehlich.
 20  2505                 First of all, Prem.
 21  2506                 MS GILL:  Thanks, Brad.
 22  2507                 First of all, as you can probably
 23       tell, I have been itching to talk about our benefits
 24       for the last couple of days.  For me and for CHUM, it
 25       has been a long couple of years of talking and


  1       theorizing that "if we did this, this could happen". 
  2       Now that it is actually happening, I can tell you it is
  3       the most exciting place to be working in Vancouver
  4       right now.
  5  2508                 I don't think our city has ever seen
  6       anything like this.  The potential of what is going to
  7       happen, and the impact that our programming and our
  8       people are going to have on the city -- we are going to
  9       rival, I believe, what happened in Toronto over 30
 10       years ago.
 11  2509                 One of the things I am going to be
 12       working on, as I talked about this morning, is working
 13       with the local people and a lot of our new hires to
 14       develop this new style of multicultural programming and
 15       aboriginal programming.  Our goal -- at least I keep
 16       telling them -- is I don't want to call it
 17       multicultural programming any more.  I really want to
 18       look at all of our programming as programming.
 19  2510                 Because we will produce most of our
 20       programming in English, both our mainstream programming
 21       and multicultural programming, it is going to be an
 22       opportunity to create something new in Vancouver that
 23       is real and local.
 24  2511                 Brad talked about our City style of
 25       what we are going to change with our newscasts.  When


  1       we say "City style", City style means bold and local
  2       and innovative.  It doesn't mean what you see on City
  3       Pulse24, because that's not Vancouver; that's Toronto.
  4  2512                 Another one of the challenges that
  5       keeps coming up in a lot of the discussions we are
  6       having is:  Where is the talent?  When we talk about
  7       increasing our diversity numbers at CKVU and finding
  8       people to work on programming that traditionally you
  9       don't find in broadcasting in Vancouver, we have made a
 10       conscious effort to establish scholarship programs with
 11       BCIT, to establish a screenwriter's program with the
 12       Praxis Screenwriters Centre.
 13  2513                 All of these programs are directed at
 14       visible minority and aboriginal filmmakers and students
 15       and individuals with the desire to -- I have this dream
 16       that those people who might produce one of our
 17       "Vancouver's Other Stories" as their first-time
 18       half-hour project or 22 minutes, or whatever it is,
 19       will some day end up going through the Praxis workshop
 20       with their script and then coming back to me for script
 21       development money, and ultimately we are going to
 22       develop their feature.
 23  2514                 This is going to be a three or
 24       four-year process so that when we come back to you in
 25       seven years I am going to have all these projects that


  1       I can come and brag about.  It is there.  The
  2       groundwork is laid.
  3  2515                 Last week I received 60 submissions
  4       from people that included -- we didn't just ask for
  5       scripts.  We asked for production budgets.  We asked
  6       for detailed personnel profiles.
  7  2516                 All of the people producing
  8       "Vancouver's Other Stories" have to be from visible
  9       minority or aboriginal backgrounds.
 10  2517                 I was shocked that I got 60 scripts. 
 11       I was really gratified, as well.  I knew that these
 12       people were out there, and now they are coming forward.
 13  2518                 Something that Diane touched on
 14       yesterday as well is that I think that talent has
 15       always been out there.  I just don't think they had a
 16       place to go in Vancouver.  Now they do.
 17  2519                 I get calls from people, not just
 18       from production people, but just like Dwight Drummond
 19       said in the City Pulse video, I get calls from students
 20       from UBC and Simon Fraser and SFU, or people working at
 21       other stations in the market, people of colour and
 22       people of aboriginal backgrounds who see a home for
 23       themselves at Citytv Vancouver.
 24  2520                 Thank you for listening to me.
 25  2521                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  We finally gave


  1       you an opportunity.
  2  2522                 MR. PHILLIPS:  Commissioner Grauer,
  3       let me throw it over to George.
  4  2523                 MR. GRATTON:  Let me pick up on that. 
  5       I have been with CKVU for 12 years, and I can tell you
  6       the buzz that has been created since CHUM has arrived,
  7       there has never been anything like it.
  8  2524                 The quality of the people we are
  9       getting there is unbelievable.
 10  2525                 I will give you an anecdote.
 11  2526                 I had a young man who applied for a
 12       position.  He didn't get it.  He was the no. 2 choice. 
 13       He phoned me back and he said, "Can I talk to you for
 14       five minutes?"  I said, "Absolutely."  He offered to
 15       come to the station and do anything.  And this is an
 16       on-air person.
 17  2527                 In all the years -- and I have been
 18       in this business for 30 years -- I have never had an
 19       on-air person say to me I will do anything to get in
 20       there.  That is what he has done.
 21  2528                 As far as our newscast is concerned,
 22       we are going to revamp it.  I know that sounds trite,
 23       and you have probably heard it before.  I have hired a
 24       couple of key people to think outside the box, and the
 25       kind of programming we are going to put on the air is


  1       going to be totally different.
  2  2529                 Let me give you an example.
  3  2530                 The city of Vancouver has major
  4       problems in terms of infrastructure because it is not
  5       getting enough funding from Ottawa.  What we are going
  6       to do is we are going to champion that to ensure that
  7       the road structures and the infrastructures get
  8       rebuilt, because that is crucial for the survival of
  9       our urban centres.
 10  2531                 As a newscast, we are going to take a
 11       point of view.  It is about time newscasts do that.  We
 12       can still be journalists, be objective, but we are
 13       going to champion certain causes in Vancouver.
 14  2532                 We are not going to be the tried and
 15       true traditional newscast.  We are going to think
 16       outside the box, and we are going to deliver on the
 17       promises we made to you today.
 18  2533                 There is another example in terms of
 19       bridging between communities.  There are so many things
 20       happening in the multicultural communities that the
 21       traditional press is not doing.  We are going to do it.
 22  2534                 For example, all sorts of stars come. 
 23       The South Asian community recently had a big event,
 24       with 15,000 people in General Motors Place.  They bring
 25       the whole family.  Nobody covered that.  We didn't


  1       either.  But we will the next time these people come
  2       into town.
  3  2535                 There are all these opportunities. 
  4       Nobody is grasping them.  We will do it.
  5  2536                 Thank you.
  6  2537                 MR. PHILLIPS:  I can tell you another
  7       thing we are excited about, if I can take another
  8       couple of seconds.
  9  2538                 The thing that we are thrilled about
 10       is to be able to take this incredible Citytv brand that
 11       has meant so much to all the places in the world,
 12       Toronto, Barcelona, wherever it has been deployed.  We
 13       couldn't be more excited to take that and have Citytv
 14       mean Vancouver.
 15  2539                 The way that we have explained it to
 16       people who have asked is that the Citytv, the brand, is
 17       the picture frame and the picture is the city of
 18       Vancouver.  That is what we intend to focus on 24 hours
 19       a day.
 20  2540                 Thank you.
 21  2541                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Mr. Chair, it
 22       isn't that I don't have a lot more that I would like to
 23       talk about, but in the interests of our schedule, I
 24       think I have covered what I need to.  Thank you.
 25  2542                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


  1  2543                 Vice-Chair Wylie.
  2  2544                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Switzer, I
  3       kind of share my colleague's frustration.  You are
  4       applying for a seven-year renewal for CKVU.  We did not
  5       go through details, as far as I know, as to what your
  6       plans exactly would be.  The transfer was approved in
  7       October of 2001 and these applications were filed I
  8       believe on the 16th of November 2001.  I have for CKVU
  9       a fall schedule with a date on it of 19 November 2001.
 10  2545                 Is that the most recent we were given
 11       for CKVU?
 12  2546                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes, Madam Vice-Chair,
 13       and it reads "CKVU Fall 2001".
 14  2547                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes, with actual
 15       typing of that date at the top.
 16  2548                 I don't quite understand why we can't
 17       have an instrument which is a little more similar to
 18       what we are used to, block schedules, or whatever, to
 19       have a picture of what it is you are proposing for CKVU
 20       once this so-called transition is over.
 21  2549                 In other words, where are these
 22       programs going to be?  How many of City's programming
 23       are likely to be there?  Surely you know this.
 24  2550                 Is it because you don't want to show
 25       it to anybody before your party?  Or is it because you


  1       just haven't done it?
  2  2551                 Surely you understand that unlike
  3       City, we don't have a very good idea of what it is
  4       going to be like after the transition.  I know you are
  5       very excited about it, but it doesn't give me a whole
  6       lot, any more than Commissioner Grauer got, about what
  7       is it likely to look like.  What is the type of
  8       non-news programming?  Where is it going to be?
  9  2552                 Can you file with us something?  I
 10       would have expected you to say well, instead of this it
 11       will be that; the news will be at the same time;
 12       priority programming, you know where it is -- it is
 13       going to be spread over the week as it is now; these
 14       three programs from City are likely to be there, but
 15       the others won't be; et cetera.
 16  2553                 I don't have a picture.
 17  2554                 MR. SWITZER:  First of all, Madam
 18       Vice-Chair, there is of course no disrespect intended. 
 19       There is nothing being kept from you.
 20  2555                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I don't get
 21       insulted easily.
 22  2556                 MR. SWITZER:  Most of the schedules
 23       that were filed were in fact for the current year, for
 24       fall 2001.  I certainly acknowledge this is not a
 25       useful document.


  1  2557                 Part of the answer -- a small part of
  2       the answer, in fact -- would be the competitive nature
  3       of some of this material.  We in fact, in a small way,
  4       are holding back some of the specifics.  That doesn't
  5       in any way mitigate our responsibilities to you.
  6  2558                 We have today talked about the plans
  7       for an early and late relaunch news.  We have talked
  8       about an in-house multicultural ethnic program
  9       production unit.  We have talked about a daily flagship
 10       show.  We haven't discussed the day part, and we have
 11       loosely talked about an early day multi-hour show that
 12       Brad touched upon, that involves entertainment,
 13       community access, music, entertainment and news.
 14  2559                 I am not in any way suggesting that
 15       we are dodging complete information.  We are learning
 16       in the market and are having continuing consultations. 
 17       Our community consultation, a broad community
 18       consultation, was literally ten days ago.  It has
 19       resulted in our revising plans that existed two weeks
 20       ago.
 21  2560                 We are happy to contribute.
 22  2561                 I guess when we reviewed last week
 23       and ended up with effectively minimum 15.5 hours of
 24       news, minimum multicultural, minimum non-news
 25       programming, it didn't seem to be productive.  We


  1       thought it would have implied a specificity that would
  2       have been misleading.
  3  2562                 If that was wrong, for that we
  4       apologize.
  5  2563                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You know very
  6       well how it works.  People come for their seven-year
  7       renewal.  They make a program schedule of some type
  8       available.  I know it is competitive.  But we are in
  9       May.  Surely you have some idea of what it is going to
 10       look like.
 11  2564                 It would seem to me that Commissioner
 12       Grauer especially is entitled to know what it is going
 13       to look like.
 14  2565                 All you are telling us is that you
 15       are very excited it is not going to look like this. 
 16       There have to be more details, it seems to me, for us
 17       to have a better idea of what it is that your
 18       excitement will translate to.
 19  2566                 MR. SWITZER:  We touched on this
 20       earlier, Madam Vice-Chair, and it goes without saying
 21       that fundamentally first the station is of course
 22       intensely local; and second, we have confirmed that it
 23       will be a movie-based format station.  It will
 24       primarily, as its dramatic expression, be in both
 25       Canadian and non-Canadian films.


  1  2567                 We can verbally sketch out for you or
  2       in fact add additional flesh to suggest that it will
  3       involve a movie-driven format service of both Canadian
  4       and non-Canadian, early and late news, particular other
  5       program blocks that we have talked about.  We will
  6       review and make specific, to the best of our ability,
  7       without in any way misleading you that those plans are
  8       set in stone.
  9  2568                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 10       Cardozo.
 11  2569                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just want to
 12       take this point one step further, because I share the
 13       frustration too in coming to a clear decision.
 14  2570                 What would your reaction be to
 15       looking at this particular licence at CKVU as a
 16       one-year renewal perhaps?
 17  2571                 What you are telling us is more than
 18       something you can get to us in the next ten days; and
 19       even then, it should be public, and all that.
 20  2572                 Would it be more convenient to you
 21       and to us to do a short-term renewal which carries
 22       things on pretty well as they are?  Then all these
 23       things will work out over time, and we will have a
 24       clear idea of what it is you are doing and we do a
 25       renewal at that point.


  1  2573                 I don't mean this as a punitive
  2       approach, but it is so we know what we are licensing. 
  3       Right now, I am not quite sure.
  4  2574                 MR. SWITZER:  We will be clear, and
  5       if there has been any hesitation or delay on detail I
  6       will take responsibility for that.
  7  2575                 We do not think that a one-year
  8       situation with CKVU is appropriate, and we are fully
  9       prepared, within ten days, as well as our other
 10       information, to make as specific as we possibly can
 11       details, content.
 12  2576                 Our concern was that if we suggested
 13       there was going to be a key flagship show in the
 14       afternoon at 5 o'clock and it ended up being in the
 15       morning, or any such combination, that you would think
 16       that we were in any way misleading you.  Clearly that
 17       choice was wrong.
 18  2577                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is not
 19       about misleading.
 20  2578                 MR. SWITZER:  Our plans are in place,
 21       and we seek the comfort and knowledge and consistency
 22       for our planning purposes so that we can have comfort
 23       that the many people we are hiring and the significant
 24       monies that we are spending on these shows, that we
 25       will have some consistency on licence.


  1  2579                 For that reason, I don't think a
  2       one-year solution is in any way appropriate.
  3  2580                 Whether it is convenient for us or
  4       not is our problem.  We will provide you with the
  5       required information.
  6  2581                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The thing is
  7       it is not just providing us with the information within
  8       ten days.  As Commissioner Grauer mentioned, it is the
  9       public as well.
 10  2582                 MR. SWITZER:  I understand.
 11  2583                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So it is a
 12       matter of how do we then -- usually everything is
 13       public at the date that the public notice is gazetted.
 14  2584                 MR. SWITZER:  There may be an earlier
 15       time frame that is more appropriate.
 16  2585                 MR. MILLER:  I would like to add a
 17       comment, and I also must apologize if we haven't
 18       provided you with the information you wanted.
 19  2586                 Our measure was some of the new
 20       applications which you have licensed, which quite
 21       frankly have provided less specificity than we have
 22       provided.
 23  2587                 We thought by that test, given that
 24       this is a de facto relaunch situation, it would be
 25       appropriate.


  1  2588                 We have heard you, and we will refile
  2       the more detailed information you require.
  3  2589                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
  4  2590                 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
  5  2591                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  6       much.
  7  2592                 Mr. Secretary.
  8  2593                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  9  2594                 We will now hear CHUM on its
 10       presentation for the NewNet television licence renewal.
 11  2595                 You have 20 minutes to make your
 12       presentation.
 14  2596                 MR. SWITZER:  Mr. Chair, Madam
 15       Vice-Chair, Members of the Commission, again for the
 16       record my name is Jay Switzer.
 17  2597                 Before we begin our formal
 18       presentation, I would like to introduce our NewNet
 19       panel as quickly as I possibly can.
 20  2598                 In the front row to your left of
 21       Moses is Mr. Doug Garraway.  He is the Vice-President
 22       and General Manager of The New VR in Barrie.  Just to
 23       your left of him is Mr. Nigel Fuller, the
 24       Vice-President and General Manager of The NewRO.
 25  2599                 To your right of Peter Miller here in


  1       the first row is Greg Mudry, Vice-President and General
  2       Manager of The New PL, The New WI and The New NX.
  3  2600                 Finally, in the second row, behind
  4       Peter Miller, three seats from your far right, is
  5       Mr. Howard Slutsken, the Vice-President and General
  6       Manager of The New VI in Victoria.
  7  2601                 They will introduce their respective
  8       teams during their individual presentations.
  9  2602                 On our side table it is mostly as
 10       before with Citytv and CKVU, with two changes:  that
 11       is, Diane Boehme is on your far right, and Sarah
 12       Crawford just to the left of her.
 13  2603                 I think now we can begin, if we can
 14       start with the tape, please.
 15       --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
 16  2604                 MR. GARRAWAY:  Mr. Chair, Members of
 17       the Commission, I am Doug Garraway, the Manager of CKVR
 18       Television, now widely known as The New VR.
 19  2605                 With me are Peggy Hebden, Program
 20       Director, and Bob McLaughlin, Manager of News and
 21       Operations.
 22  2606                 The New VR shares a history similar
 23       to the other New Net stations.  We have been in
 24       operation since the mid-fifties.  We are long-term
 25       affiliates of the CBC, now operating as fiercely local,


  1       community-driven independent stations committed to
  2       excellence in regional news and other local
  3       programming.
  4  2607                 Despite the similarities, there are
  5       differences.  The New Ro and The New PL serve
  6       relatively large cities:  Ottawa, with a population of
  7       over one million and London with over 400,000 people.
  8  2608                 The New VR, on the other hand,
  9       located in Barrie with a population of barely 100,000,
 10       serves an extensive, yet sparsely populated area made
 11       up of small cities and towns, rural villages and
 12       country crossroads.
 13  2609                 Viewers recognize this central
 14       Ontario region that we call home as "VRLand".
 15  2610                 In order to sustain robust local
 16       service, we must compete successfully for viewing to
 17       non-local programming in the densely populated centres
 18       to the south.  The recent addition of two new stations
 19       in the Toronto market is therefore a cause for concern
 20       at The New VR and indeed across the whole of our NewNet
 21       Group.
 22  2611                 First, programming costs will
 23       escalate.  We have already witnessed this fact, losing
 24       a key syndicated program from our schedule when one of
 25       the new stations offered almost double what we are


  1       currently paying for the show.
  2  2612                 Second, with a significant increase
  3       in commercial inventory in the Toronto and Hamilton
  4       markets and little apparent increase in demand, we are
  5       projecting reduced revenue for CKVR.
  6  2613                 By the second year of a new licence
  7       term, we project that we will lose $2.6 million in
  8       revenue and incur $600,000 in increased programming
  9       costs.
 10  2614                 MS HEBDEN:  The New VR's success in
 11       attracting GTA audiences for our non-local programming
 12       was bred of necessity.  We, like all NewNet stations,
 13       offer viewers a distinctive style of programming, an
 14       alternative to other stations in the market.  Prime
 15       time features unique action dramas, many of them in the
 16       science fiction genre, many of them Canadian.
 17  2615                 Drawing on CHUM Television's ability
 18       to create unique, attractive niches for its channels,
 19       CKVR, after disaffiliation from the CBC, exploded onto
 20       the scene in 1995 as The New VR, earning immediate
 21       recognition and acceptance throughout central Ontario. 
 22       But The New VR's whole economic wellbeing depends on
 23       consistent, accessible cable channel placement in
 24       Toronto and Hamilton.
 25  2616                 At the time of its disaffiliation


  1       from the CBC, CKVR's status as a regional independent
  2       would have guaranteed a 'basic band', 2-13, placement
  3       on Toronto area cable systems.  The result would have
  4       been the displacement of the 'Community Channel', which
  5       at that time occupied the only remaining non-impaired
  6       channel on the 'basic band'.
  7  2617                 The Commission accepted CHUM's
  8       proposal for a position on the 'secondary tier'.  The
  9       Commission directed GTA cable operators to distribute
 10       The New VR no higher than channel 25, and on the
 11       majority of GTA systems VR is now distributed on
 12       channel 20.
 13  2618                 This directive has proven essential
 14       for us.  Channel position is now, more than ever,
 15       critically important to The New VR in order to ensure
 16       continued service to the station's local viewers.
 17  2619                 We seek an assurance from the
 18       Commission that the recent licensing of two new
 19       competitors in the Toronto/Hamilton market will not
 20       disrupt The New VR's cable distribution in these
 21       markets.
 22  2620                 MR. McLAUGHLIN:  With a brilliant new
 23       identity, a uniquely attractive program schedule, and
 24       impressive audience viewing and sales results in
 25       Toronto, we have been able to accomplish some exciting


  1       things in our home market.  I am proud to give you a
  2       few examples.
  3  2621                 The New VR employs 130 full and
  4       part-time people, 65 of them directly involved in the
  5       production of local news and local reflection.
  6  2622                 Each week we produce 17 hours of news
  7       programming and generate, on average, 300 original
  8       central Ontario news items.
  9  2623                 We have 16 vehicles on the roads of
 10       VRLand, including our brand new, state of the art,
 11       live-eye truck.
 12  2624                 In the past two years we have opened
 13       three news bureaus:  in York Region; in Muskoka/Perry
 14       Sound; and, as you saw, just two weeks ago in
 15       Collingwood, serving the Georgian Bay area.
 16  2625                 We have been recently honoured with
 17       two significant RTNDA awards for Best Local TV Newscast
 18       and Best Live Special, Medium Market.
 19  2626                 This summary speaks volumes about the
 20       reality of our local commitment.  The fact that our
 21       news audiences are now at their highest level in 47
 22       years, despite living in the shadow of the most
 23       competitive media market in Canada, clearly indicates
 24       tremendous public acceptance and support for our local
 25       initiatives.  There is much of which we can be proud. 


  1       There is much at risk.
  2  2627                 MR. GARRAWAY:  At The New VR we are
  3       committed to providing exposure for diverse communities
  4       across VRLand.  Every year we provide over 250
  5       community groups with an opportunity to make a personal
  6       pitch to VR's evening news audience asking them to
  7       support, donate or get involved.
  8  2628                 There are a number of First Nations
  9       located in our local coverage area and we provide
 10       significant coverage of activities in the aboriginal
 11       community.  In fact, we have produced over 150 stories
 12       in the past 12 months alone.
 13  2629                 At The New VR we have the people, the
 14       infrastructure and the will to remain the area's
 15       dominant news source and to be an essential connecting
 16       link for our communities, a mirror on the events
 17       affecting viewers' lives, a stage for their talents and
 18       an important partner as people in VRLand find ways to
 19       help one another.
 20  2630                 With your assurances, we are
 21       confident that we will measure up to the expectations
 22       expressed in the many letters of support that have been
 23       filed on our behalf.
 24  2631                 Thank you.
 25  2632                 MR. MUDRY:  My name is Greg Mudry,


  1       Vice-President and General Manager of CFPL-TV, CHWI-TV
  2       and CKNX-TV.  With me are Don Mumford, Manager of
  3       Programming and Independent Productions and Kate Young,
  4       Director of Community Relations and anchor of our
  5       evening newscast.
  6  2633                 Collectively, our three stations
  7       serve over 2 million people in southwestern Ontario, a
  8       geographic area populated by individuals who share a
  9       common bond while retaining a strong local
 10       identification with their home towns.  The stations
 11       work in tandem to deliver a variety of local
 12       programming which reflects these regional and local
 13       perspectives.
 14  2634                 CFPL-TV, London, commenced
 15       broadcasting in 1953; CKNX-TV, Wingham, in 1955; and
 16       CHWI-TV, Windsor, more recently, in 1993.
 17  2635                 During the early 1990s new ownership
 18       and changing corporate directions moved the stations
 19       further and further away from their tradition of
 20       providing strong local television service.  However, in
 21       1997 CHUM Limited acquired the stations, making the
 22       commitment to reinstate community-based service.  Since
 23       then, the three stations have had to contend with the
 24       challenge of a reduced revenue base that has been
 25       exacerbated by continuing industry-wide flat


  1       conventional advertising revenue.
  2  2636                 In addition, unique challenges exist
  3       at the local level, especially in Wingham and Windsor.
  4  2637                 Wingham, a village of 3,000, has the
  5       distinction of being the smallest community in Canada
  6       with its own TV station.  At the same time, CKNX-TV
  7       must serve a huge region that is sparsely populated. 
  8       Almost half of those living in the region subscribe to
  9       DTH services, but unfortunately our station is not
 10       carried.
 11  2638                 Sustaining local television stations
 12       in small markets across Canada has become extremely
 13       difficult, as was illustrated recently by the closure
 14       of CJFB-TV in Swift Current, Saskatchewan.
 15  2639                 While CHWI-TV has established itself
 16       as the number one choice for news and information in
 17       Windsor, the competition from just across the river
 18       remains formidable.  Detroit is a city of 4.5 million
 19       people; Windsor, 300,000.
 20  2640                 Viewing of U.S. stations in Windsor
 21       constitutes 54 per cent of total tuning -- double the
 22       Ontario average of 27 per cent -- and viewers continue
 23       to watch the widely available U.S. signals off air,
 24       keeping cable penetration low.  While Canadian DTH has
 25       made some inroads, our Windsor station is not carried.


  1  2641                 MR. MUMFORD:  Our three stations each
  2       currently include 27 hours of original local and
  3       regional programming in their schedules every week.  Of
  4       this, it is through "News Now" and our morning show
  5       "New Day" that we most effectively reflect the
  6       communities of southwestern Ontario.
  7  2642                 In London, Windsor and Wingham our
  8       newscasts hold the number one ranking and, combined,
  9       reach over 500,000 people each week.  The tremendous
 10       success of "News Now" rests upon the local reflection
 11       that is the cornerstone of our service.  Our nightly
 12       commentary features a diverse range of contributors who
 13       are well versed on issues of a timely nature, and this
 14       commitment to local reflection has made us invaluable
 15       to our viewers.
 16  2643                 Since its inception in 1999, our
 17       morning show "New Day" has broadcast live from over 500
 18       different locations and allowed southwestern Ontarians
 19       the opportunity to tell thousands of their stories.
 20  2644                 Many other local programs are
 21       included in the schedule, and diversity of local voices
 22       is a key element.  Diversity is the foundation of our
 23       New Program Production Fund, which I administer.  By
 24       the end of our current licence, we will have
 25       contributed $900,000 to the independent production


  1       community, initiating 190 hours of locally relevant
  2       programming.  We are committed to continuing this
  3       successful initiative through script and concept
  4       development at the local level and by serving as a
  5       conduit to other funding available from CHUM
  6       Television.
  7  2645                 MS YOUNG:   Our three stations also
  8       play a pivotal role in enhancing the lives of our
  9       constituents through community service.  For example,
 10       when the community called for help in attracting the
 11       2001 Canada Games, we responded.  In total, our
 12       support, valued at almost one million dollars,
 13       contributed to what has been called the most successful
 14       Canada Games ever.
 15  2646                 One of our 1997 commitments was the
 16       establishment of a media literacy program for students
 17       and parents.  In a unique partnership with the City of
 18       London just recently announced, the new public library
 19       will house the CHUM Television Media Literacy Centre, a
 20       first of its kind anywhere in North America.
 21  2647                 We recognize that our highly rated
 22       newscasts and other station-produced programming have a
 23       tremendous influence on community attitudes and, as
 24       such, ensuring accurate depiction of local culture and
 25       its diversity is essential.


  1  2648                 This past November, "News Now"
  2       reporter Jennifer Palisoc prepared an in-depth profile
  3       of the local Islamic community in response to the
  4       tragic events of September 11th.  "Unveiling Islam"
  5       aired as a series within our newscast and again this
  6       January as an expanded half-hour primetime documentary,
  7       providing a vital perspective at a time when it was
  8       most needed.
  9  2649                 We also provide a special focus on
 10       First Nations issues.  In addition to carrying "Smoke
 11       Signals", which you saw in our video presentation,
 12       CFPL-TV sponsored "Gathering of the Good Minds - A
 13       Celebration of First Nations Arts & Wisdom".  This
 14       three-day event in London featured numerous First
 15       Nations cultural activities and speakers in an effort
 16       to inform native and non-Native audiences alike.
 17  2650                 MR. MUDRY:  The success of our
 18       stations rests upon our ability to provide strong local
 19       service.  We don't have top 20 programs.  What we do
 20       have is a proven track record in delivering local
 21       programming that our viewers tell us is vital to their
 22       daily lives.
 23  2651                 To do this, we have built a
 24       three-station system that concentrates technical and
 25       logistical resources in London, eliminating unnecessary


  1       and costly duplication in Windsor and Wingham.  This
  2       allows us to place more videographers, producers,
  3       cameras and microwave trucks on the street, maximizing
  4       our ability to air as much local content as possible.
  5  2652                 Despite this effective use of
  6       resources, accompanied by steady growth in revenue, we
  7       have yet to realize a profit.  In the licence renewal
  8       applications originally filed, we sought a reduction in
  9       our minimum commitments to gain the flexibility
 10       necessary to preserve the local service we have built
 11       and, ultimately, to achieve profitability.
 12  2653                 With two new Toronto stations about
 13       to launch, we face a whole new set of challenges.
 14  2654                 We will have to find ways to offset
 15       the impact of higher programming costs and lower
 16       revenues.  Therefore, we have modified our applications
 17       to gain the ability to implement cost reductions.  We
 18       hope that such reductions can be minimized for we are
 19       loathe to damage the foundation of local service upon
 20       which our three stations have been built.
 21  2655                 MR. FULLER:  Hello.  My name is Nigel
 22       Fuller.  I am the Vice-President and General Manager of
 23       CHRO-TV.  With me are Mike Kellar, Station Manager;
 24       Richard Gray, Director of Information Programming; Anna
 25       Mary Burke, Programming and Operations Manager; and


  1       Marlene Lone, Director of Creative Services.
  2  2656                 CHRO's Pembroke location employs 32
  3       fulltime and eight part-time staff who handle
  4       programming, operations, traffic and accounting, as
  5       well as local news and sales.  The Byward Market
  6       location in downtown Ottawa has 83 fulltime and nine
  7       part-time employees, most of whom work in news. 
  8       Advertising, promotion and sales are also carried out
  9       from this location.
 10  2657                 Tony Atherton, entertainment reporter
 11       for the Ottawa Citizen, said it best when he
 12       characterized The NewRO's evening newscast as
 13       "vigorously local".
 14  2658                 May I add here that we also support
 15       the correct hockey team.
 16  2659                 That phrase captures RO's on-air
 17       personality exactly.  We cover local news, events,
 18       charities, politics and people, and we do it with
 19       enthusiasm.  We seek out opportunities to interact with
 20       our viewers, and we give them a voice to communicate
 21       with our neighbours.
 22  2660                 The latest expression of that mandate
 23       occurred on Monday, September 24, 2001 at 6:00 a.m.
 24       when "Breakast@TheNewRO" signed on for the first time. 
 25       Taking advantage offered by the four CHUM radio


  1       stations resident with The NewRO in our street-front
  2       building, "Breakfast@TheNewRO" offers useful
  3       information and entertainment.  We broadcast live to
  4       Ottawa and the Valley each day, and every show includes
  5       performances, events, exhibits, demonstrations and
  6       profiles of countless local residents, charitable
  7       causes and homegrown talent.
  8  2661                 In total, CHRO produces almost 29
  9       ours of local programming per week -- just over 13
 10       hours in the form of news, and nearly 16 hours of other
 11       local programs.
 12  2662                 MR. KELLER:  CHRO moved into its new
 13       state-of-the-art media centre in the fall of 2000,
 14       making us very accessible to the community we serve. 
 15       Our street-front location is rapidly becoming a meeting
 16       place.  Not only are tours of the facility in heavy
 17       demand, bit we offer the building to community groups
 18       and organizations for meetings, receptions, screenings
 19       and concerts.  We also hold an annual open house at the
 20       building where we invite viewers to tour the facility
 21       and meet with our personalities.
 22  2663                 MR. GRAY:  Proof that we are making
 23       an impact is in the growth in our news audiences both
 24       in Ottawa and the Valley.  Our 6:00 p.m. newscast has
 25       surged past CBC's local news program, becoming the


  1       second-most watched news show in Ottawa.  And in the
  2       valley, for the first time in over 20 years, the
  3       NewRO's 6:00 p.m. newscast is the number one source of
  4       television news.
  5  2664                 We have made this meaningful
  6       connection with our audience in just a few short years
  7       through regular and relevant contact with local
  8       newsmakers -- lots of it.  Since CHUM Television
  9       acquired CHRO in 1997, our news team has grown from 19
 10       people to more than 70.  With our 13 news trucks plus
 11       two live-eyes, we are literally everywhere in our
 12       broadcast region.
 13  2665                 MS BURKE:  One of the most visible
 14       expressions of our interaction with the community is
 15       "Speakers Corner".  Viewer contribution from our two
 16       "Speakers Corner" booths has grown to the point that we
 17       now have a weekly local half-hour prime time show. 
 18       Another example is our support of local organizations
 19       and events in Ottawa and the Valley.  We have sponsored
 20       over 50 local events during the past 12 months.  It is
 21       our goal to do more of this than any other local
 22       television station.
 23  2666                 Over the past five years CHRO has
 24       supported 16 different projects from local producers,
 25       spending a total of just over $450,000.  We were


  1       involved in the production of a diverse range of
  2       projects, from the "Spirit of Hope", a one-hour
  3       documentary on the Hope Beach volleyball tournament
  4       that raised money for seven charities, to "Fiddle
  5       Park", which showcased the annual Fiddling and
  6       Stepdancing Championship in Pembroke.
  7  2667                 We have funded feature length films
  8       such as "Juiced", where a disgruntled waitress serves
  9       up laughs; and "Two's a Mob", a lighter sided look at
 10       the dark side of organized crime.
 11  2668                 We took time this year to laugh at
 12       ourselves in "Ottawa Technically Funny", a six-part
 13       series that poked fun at life in Ottawa and the Valley. 
 14       Response has been so strong that we are expanding this
 15       series by another seven programs and working to support
 16       the producer's ambition to export the concept across
 17       Canada.
 18  2669                 MS LONE:  We are committed to
 19       reflecting the lives of the various cultural groups in
 20       Ottawa and the Valley.  The NewRO works with
 21       organizations that reflect and celebrate diversity,
 22       assisting them in their promotional efforts for various
 23       projects.
 24  2670                 We are working with the Lombardi
 25       family's newly licensed ethnic radio station here in


  1       Ottawa/Hull and plan to share a local reporter who will
  2       report from the perspective of cultural and ethnic
  3       groups within our coverage area.  We have also begun to
  4       plan a weekend ethnic programming block.
  5  2671                 We produce and carry the program
  6       "Aboriginal Voices" that showcases success stories
  7       about aboriginal people.  Our program "In Good Faith"
  8       showcases hosts from varying faiths tackling issues
  9       important to everyday life.  The Bahài faith, native
 10       lifestyle, leaders from a Hindu temple and the Imam
 11       from an Ottawa mosque have all been profiled on the
 12       show.
 13  2672                 MR. FULLER:  As part of our renewal
 14       application, we have applied to split feed commercials
 15       during local programming.  This is extremely important
 16       to both the station and the Valley retailers that we
 17       serve.  For the business community, split feed means
 18       access to more of the inventory they want -- that is
 19       local news and "Breakfast@TheNewRO" -- at rates that
 20       are more affordable and better reflect their market.
 21  2673                 For CHRO, Pembroke local revenues
 22       could almost double over the next couple of years, with
 23       up to $800,000 in incremental revenue to the station.
 24  2674                 A positive response to our split feed
 25       proposal, as well as our request for flexibility in our


  1       local programming commitments, will give us the tools
  2       that we need to accomplish our goal of profitability,
  3       while serving our constituencies with that vigorously
  4       local approach.
  5  2675                 MR. SLUTSKEN:  My name is Howard
  6       Slutsken, and I am the Vice-President and General
  7       Manager of CIVI-TV, Victoria, known to our Vancouver
  8       Island region viewers as The New VI.
  9  2676                 With me is Laura Acton, The New VI's
 10       Director of Community Affairs.  While we are not up for
 11       renewal, we are pleased to be here to give you a brief
 12       update.
 13  2677                 We have brought together an amazing
 14       and diverse team, the majority of which have roots on
 15       Vancouver Island.  Our beautifully restored,
 16       award-winning state-of-the-art facility in downtown
 17       Victoria is a remarkable marriage of heritage and
 18       high-tech.
 19  2678                 You saw a number of examples of our
 20       local programming in the opening video.
 21  2679                 What we didn't have time to show you
 22       is the anchoring of our morning show from the
 23       mid-Island city of Nanaimo.  For the first time ever,
 24       nanaimo and the mid-Island have a weekday, life,
 25       two-hour program, with "New Day" airing from our


  1       downtown Nanaimo bureau.
  2  2680                 In addition, our drama initiative has
  3       resulted in over 750 submissions.  Our next step is to
  4       pair the winning writers with local producers.
  5  2681                 All we need is DTH carriage to ensure
  6       a solid future.
  7  2682                 MS ACTON:  It has been two years and
  8       eight months since appearing before you in Vancouver
  9       when we applied for an intensely local television
 10       station for Vancouver Island.  I can tell you now that
 11       I am an even more enthusiastic convert than I was back
 12       then.
 13  2683                 I believe the measure of our success
 14       since our sign-on is what our viewers are saying about
 15       us.  Here are a few statements that capture what we
 16       have done -- and I quote:
 17                              "At last we have a true
 18                              community television station.
 19                              "I no longer feel deprived of my
 20                              local news.
 21                              "They came through with what
 22                              they promised."
 23  2684                 We demonstrate our commitment to the
 24       community through numerous sponsorships, and we
 25       actively encourage the community to use our television


  1       station as a vehicle to publicize their events and
  2       raise awareness of their causes.
  3  2685                 As a former city of Victoria
  4       councillor, I have seen many development proposals come
  5       to the table with promises of extraordinary benefits to
  6       the community that never come about.
  7  2686                 I reiterate the comment that makes me
  8       most proud to be part of The New VI team, and that is:
  9       "They came through with what they promised."
 10  2687                 Thank you.
 11  2688                 MR. SWITZER:  Mr. Chair, that
 12       concludes our New Net presentation.  Of course, we look
 13       forward to your discussion.
 14  2689                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 15       much.  We will break now and resume in 15 minutes, at
 16       4:05.
 17       --- Upon recessing at 1550 / Suspension à 1550
 18       --- Upon resuming at 1605 / Reprend à 1605
 19  2690                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À
 20       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
 21  2691                 Commissioner Langford.
 22  2692                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.
 23  2693                 First of all, I want to welcome all
 24       of you here, from everywhere.  Some of you have not
 25       come from far, but you have waited a long time.  So it


  1       almost works out the same.
  2  2694                 I also want to say to the people from
  3       Victoria thank you for coming.  I won't be asking you
  4       questions, because your licence is not up for renewal. 
  5       It is not any sign of lack of interest, but we are a
  6       bit pushed for time.  As much as I would love to have a
  7       friendly natter with you since you have come so far,
  8       with respect to the many intervenors who are anxiously
  9       waiting and patiently waiting -- for which we all thank
 10       them -- I will try to move it along as quickly as I
 11       can.
 12  2695                 What I am going to propose, and I may
 13       be the first one to break this -- and this is really
 14       top of the head thinking.
 15  2696                 Maybe what I can do is do a first
 16       round of specific questions to specific
 17       licence-holders; for example, the split feed in Ottawa. 
 18       We will get that out of the way, get the answers on the
 19       record, and then maybe we can have some general
 20       questions about local programming, regional
 21       programming, the effects of the sort of conversation we
 22       had yesterday, where all of the station managers, or
 23       whomever, can feel free to get involved.
 24  2697                 In that way we can have a thorough
 25       airing of it, hopefully, but take as little time as


  1       possible and get the intervenors in here.  I wonder if
  2       that is all right as a proposition.
  3  2698                 MR. MILLER:  Of course.
  4  2699                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If it works,
  5       it will work for you.  I will do my best.
  6  2700                 Why don't I start where you started
  7       with CKVR, Barrie, and Mr. Garroway.  We have a couple
  8       of specifics there that I wanted to touch on.
  9  2701                 The first one -- and I apologize if I
 10       missed it.  The first one is in fact what I might call
 11       the first pillar of your four pillars holding up your
 12       application, according to the first corporate opening
 13       statement that was made -- it feels like the 12th
 14       Century by now, but it was only yesterday.
 15  2702                 That is the question of channel
 16       placement.
 17  2703                 The reason I apologize is because I
 18       saw that nowhere in the application.  The first notice
 19       I had of it was yesterday.  It may be in there
 20       somewhere, but if it is, I missed it.
 21  2704                 So I am coming to it a little bit
 22       unprepared.  I did do a little looking around
 23       yesterday.
 24  2705                 I guess the question is, in light of
 25       the quick review of the history we got this afternoon


  1       and a little bit of review I was able to do last
  2       evening, what is it precisely you think we can do on
  3       that issue within the confines of a licence renewal
  4       hearing?
  5  2706                 MR. MILLER:  Thank you very much.  I
  6       will take that question, Commissioner Langford.
  7  2707                 First of all, you are correct; it
  8       wasn't in the original application.  It didn't become
  9       an issue until the licensing of the two Toronto
 10       decisions, and we started to look back at the history
 11       of that request that was initially granted in the
 12       disaffiliation decision.  We realized that it would be
 13       so vital to maintain that low channel position that we
 14       had to raise it with you as a concern.
 15  2708                 In terms of what we are asking from
 16       you, it is basically a reiteration of what you said in
 17       the disaffiliation decision, which is that cable
 18       operators should carry us in a channel position under
 19       25.  In other words, we are asking you to encourage --
 20       and that is all you could do through our licence
 21       decision -- cable operators to continue to do that.
 22  2709                 I should say, Commissioner Langford,
 23       because it shows already some very positive response
 24       from some of the BDUs affected, we also contacted the
 25       two major MSOs affected, Rogers and COGECO.


  1  2710                 Rogers has sent us a letter, which we
  2       would be happy to file, if you feel it is appropriate. 
  3       Let me read you the last paragraph of the letter, which
  4       says:
  5                              "In light of the historical
  6                              reasons behind our carriage of
  7                              CKVR on its current channel
  8                              position(s), Rogers can confirm
  9                              that we are not considering
 10                              moving CKVR from its present
 11                              location(s) to accommodate these
 12                              two new services."
 13  2711                 That was a letter that we received
 14       Friday, which is a very positive letter.
 15  2712                 We have also received an oral
 16       indication from COGECO that they --
 17  2713                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am
 18       multi-tasking here.  I deliver mail; I listen; I
 19       prepare questions.
 20  2714                 MR. MILLER:  We got a phone message
 21       from COGECO that they similarly are not planning to
 22       relocate.
 23  2715                 Just your reiteration of the
 24       importance of that I think is all we are seeking. 
 25       Already we are getting the kind of response that we


  1       need from BDUs.
  2  2716                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think
  3       perhaps you probably should file the letter, having
  4       quoted from it.  Then on the transcript we will of
  5       course have note of your phone conversation with
  6       COGECO.
  7  2717                 I can be guided by our counsel, but I
  8       would guess, just for a complete record, if COGECO
  9       follows that up with a letter or a fax, a memo of some
 10       form, you might want to provide that for the record
 11       here as well.
 12  2718                 We don't rule off the bench, but we
 13       do believe in fairness and equity and all of those
 14       things.  I quite understand Mr. Sherratt's urging today
 15       that we should look backwards as well as forwards.
 16  2719                 I hope that gives you some comfort
 17       that we have heard you.  We do have your opening
 18       statement and we have your comments today, and it is
 19       certainly something that we will consider.
 20  2720                 You know the history of this file
 21       perhaps better than we do, in that there have been some
 22       COLs on Rogers' licence renewals and things that are a
 23       bit contradictory.  But we hear you, if that is good
 24       enough on that issue.
 25  2721                 Let me move on to another one at


  1       CKVR.
  2  2722                 Mr. Galloway, we are going to get you
  3       on the record again, I hope.
  4  2723                 The simulcast of non-Canadian films. 
  5       I guess I understand why you might want to do it in the
  6       sense that VR country now, if you have access to cable,
  7       goes a long way:  Oshawa, Toronto, Mississauga.  It is
  8       a big spread out there.
  9  2724                 Why is it necessary?  Why is that
 10       particularly so important to you at this time?
 11  2725                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Langford,
 12       perhaps I will deal with that.
 13  2726                 We thought it appropriate at renewal
 14       time to review everything that was on the record,
 15       discussions, expectations, conditions, restrictions,
 16       and so on.  This struck us as an old concern, an
 17       immaterial concern, a concern that we believe,
 18       ironically, is actually dysfunctional to what we
 19       believed was a desired action from the party CanWest
 20       that originally asked for it many years ago.
 21  2727                 For all of those reasons, and because
 22       we believe that renewal time is the best time to review
 23       -- and I say clean up, with all respect -- what we
 24       think are things that should be dealt with at times,
 25       that this was the time to talk about it.


  1  2728                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You must
  2       realize, because you are the people who asked for this,
  3       that it may be slightly more than clean up.  There are
  4       other situations where similar COLs with other
  5       broadcasters exist.  I don't think our doors will be
  6       broken down by applications, but I think this is not
  7       the only such condition of licence extant at this point
  8       in Canada.
  9  2729                 MR. SWITZER:  Not to overstate the
 10       importance, but in our case, given the fit of VR within
 11       The NewNet stations across Ontario, and now the
 12       connections with The New VI in Victoria, it remains an
 13       isolated required difference that now makes it more
 14       difficult for everyone to work together.
 15  2730                 This is the time that we should
 16       discuss that.
 17  2731                 I do not mean to suggest in any way
 18       that it is a life or death situation for us.  It is
 19       not.  It is important and we are trying to clean up, as
 20       we deal with other matters of flexibility, to provide
 21       for ease of operation between stations that share a
 22       similar format and similar programming strengths.
 23  2732                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Financially,
 24       can you give us some idea of what this would mean to
 25       you?


  1  2733                 For example, in the split feed
  2       situation that we will get to in a few minutes in CHRO,
  3       you give us some financial notions.  But on this one,
  4       unless I missed it, I don't have a sense of what this
  5       may mean in the terms of dollars.
  6  2734                 MR. SWITZER:  No.  You are quite
  7       correct.  The split feed discussion, which I hope you
  8       will move to this afternoon, is extremely important and
  9       very significant.  This is a matter of consistency.  It
 10       is not a matter of significant or material financial
 11       implications.  That doesn't mean it is not appropriate
 12       to talk about now.  We believe it is.
 13  2735                 To directly answer your question, it
 14       is not of material financial significance.  It is an
 15       operational and programming significance.
 16  2736                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would have
 17       thought there were some financial consequences. 
 18       Perhaps I misunderstand it.
 19  2737                 Let me see if I can simplify it and,
 20       in so doing, demonstrate just how little I understand,
 21       perhaps.
 22  2738                 Is the notion here that if you are
 23       showing on City a non-Canadian film "Titanic", you
 24       would like to be showing or at least have the ability
 25       to show at the same time on the Barrie station, which


  1       of course goes into Toronto and Oshawa and everywhere
  2       else, "Four Weddings and a Funeral" or some other
  3       non-Canadian film?
  4  2739                 MR. SWITZER:  Yes.
  5  2740                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would that
  6       not enable you to perhaps up audiences on both and
  7       therefore command higher advertising revenues?  Or am I
  8       wrong?
  9  2741                 MR. SWITZER:  To begin with, you are
 10       right in that the desired flexibility would be to be
 11       able to take advantage of different kinds of movies and
 12       perhaps program a family movie against another genre. 
 13       That doesn't necessarily result in increased revenues,
 14       because it is replacing perhaps another action
 15       adventure series.  The movies aren't necessarily
 16       Blockbusters.  There are other genres.
 17  2742                 Citytv is the primary movie vehicle. 
 18       The other NewNet stations can continue to play selected
 19       movies.  Historically, since 1997, they have played
 20       approximately one film per week in prime time.  This
 21       little restriction that we live with strictly for VR
 22       reduces the ability of the stations to work together.
 23  2743                 So on an occasional week if there was
 24       a family movie -- and in some cases the group has
 25       wanted to play some 7:00 p.m. Sunday night family


  1       movies -- that would have meant that the one other
  2       non-Canadian film that they might have played, that
  3       they couldn't do it.
  4  2744                 For all the reasons we have talked
  5       about, we think it is inappropriate to carry forward.
  6  2745                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for
  7       that.  Again, you have made your case and we have heard
  8       it, and obviously that will be put into the mix.
  9  2746                 Dealing with specifics, I want to
 10       move away from CKVR unless there is a specific I have
 11       not spotted -- and we will get back to, of course, the
 12       whole larger question of programming.
 13  2747                 Perhaps we will move on to CHRO,
 14       Mr. Fuller, and perhaps we will have better luck.  I
 15       will ask questions that perhaps can bring you into the
 16       play here, dealing again with this split feed
 17       application.
 18  2748                 Before we get to it, just as a bit of
 19       an intro to it, would you tell me a little bit about
 20       the balancing of program schedules to attempt to
 21       reflect the two audiences that you so clearly state in
 22       your application that you are working with.
 23  2749                 You can use something as simple as a
 24       line-up of news.  Are they two separate news shows or
 25       they shows that are similar for the first six of twelve


  1       minutes and then different afterwards?
  2  2750                 Can you give me some idea of what it
  3       means to be putting out these two shows -- and you can
  4       use some of your non-news programming as well -- so
  5       that when we get to the question of split feed, I will
  6       have a better sense of what that split feed is going to
  7       be built around.
  8  2751                 Is that a fair question?
  9  2752                 MR. FULLER:  Sure.  What we do is we
 10       completely integrate the Pembroke information with the
 11       Ottawa information in both the breakfast show and the
 12       news shows.  We maintain a news operation in Pembroke,
 13       and they feed stories into our 6 o'clock, our 11
 14       o'clock and our weekend newscasts.
 15  2753                 We make sure that at least one
 16       Pembroke story runs in the first three to four stories
 17       on the 6:00 to 7:00 cast.
 18  2754                 Richard, what is our average?
 19  2755                 MR. GRAY:  Our average on a daily
 20       newscast basis would be that we would run probably five
 21       to six items in our breakfast show, in the news
 22       segments of the show, as well as doing regular segments
 23       into the breakfast show from Pembroke.
 24  2756                 On our 6 o'clock news program on a
 25       daily basis we would run anywhere from three to five


  1       stories, including one that is done either live from
  2       our Pembroke newsroom or live on location in Pembroke.
  3  2757                 For our 11 o'clock news each day the
  4       number would be around three stories an evening, at 11
  5       o'clock.
  6  2758                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just to be
  7       pellucidly clear, it is the same show.  Ottawa gets
  8       that show with the Pembroke bits, and Pembroke gets the
  9       show with the Pembroke bits.  They get exactly the same
 10       show.
 11  2759                 MR. FULLER:  Absolutely.
 12  2760                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I just want
 13       to be clear on that.
 14  2761                 Go on.  You were going to give more
 15       information.
 16  2762                 MR. FULLER:  Only that one of the
 17       things we found when we started to do this was that we
 18       had a deficit in Pembroke in that we were not able to
 19       go live from the Pembroke area and the Valley.  We had
 20       a truck that had to be everywhere, and that wasn't
 21       working out well for us.
 22  2763                 We ended up being able to put
 23       together another live-eye truck in order to have it
 24       maintained in Pembroke.  We have one there and one now
 25       in Ottawa so we can feed live stories in both breakfast


  1       and news.
  2  2764                 MR. GRAY:  Perhaps I can add to that
  3       slightly.
  4  2765                 Part of the integration that
  5       Mr. Fuller speaks about also comes through in the way
  6       that we go about planning all of our special live
  7       productions.
  8  2766                 When we are doing an election night
  9       special, a municipal election special like we did in
 10       November of 2000, we set up in Pembroke to cover the
 11       results from Pembroke and integrated that into our
 12       overall municipal election coverage in a very
 13       significant way.
 14  2767                 We did the same thing when we covered
 15       the federal election in 2000 and the provincial
 16       election in 1999.
 17  2768                 We did a three-hour broadcast special
 18       on New Year's Eve 1999 to bring in the new millennium. 
 19       One of the live locations that we featured on that
 20       program, again very significantly, was a Black Tie
 21       event from downtown Pembroke.
 22  2769                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But there was
 23       only one show in all of these cases.
 24  2770                 MR. GRAY:  There was only one show in
 25       all of these cases, and a significant portion of the


  1       show was from Pembroke and from other locales around
  2       the region.
  3  2771                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want to
  4       stress that there is no critical undercurrent in what I
  5       am asking.  I just want to be absolutely sure that
  6       there isn't a second show somewhere.
  7  2772                 Are there any instances in your
  8       schedules where in fact Pembroke gets a different show
  9       for half an hour, an hour, whatever time slot Ottawa is
 10       getting?
 11  2773                 MR. FULLER:  The only time that
 12       happens is when the Commission has allowed us to split
 13       feed for the purposes of doing a telethon that we do in
 14       Pembroke and the Valley that is distinct to the Valley. 
 15       That is the only occasion I can remember where we have
 16       fed different shows.
 17  2774                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So sort of a
 18       special licence situation.
 19  2775                 Before we get to the financials and
 20       one of the clear reasons for doing this, if you were to
 21       be granted the split feed ability that you seek, would
 22       that change in any way, or could it change in any way
 23       the make-up of local shows as you have described them
 24       to me today?
 25  2776                 MR. SWITZER:  Let me begin, if I may,


  1       to be very clear so that there is no confusion.
  2  2777                 No, Commissioner Langford, it will
  3       not change our investment in the market in terms of
  4       people and resources, the close to 40 people we have in
  5       total in the Valley, the technology, the news base.  We
  6       are talking about specifically the right to split feed
  7       advertising, advertising only, and even more
  8       restrictive than that, to split feed advertising only
  9       in our local programs and the local programs the way
 10       they are now.
 11  2778                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So it is
 12       money -- and not a bad thing as long as it is used
 13       correctly, I suppose, or wisely, at least legally.
 14  2779                 MR. SWITZER:  Finally, Commissioner
 15       Langford, the pressure that gets us here to ask for it
 16       is the slow forcing out, as we discussed today, of many
 17       of the local retailers in Pembroke who, as the station
 18       grows, are finding themselves less able to continue to
 19       take advantage of the station.
 20  2780                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let's talk a
 21       little bit about it.
 22  2781                 We understand that you will have
 23       separate feeds because you want separate ads.  We
 24       understand that it will only be the local programming,
 25       but the programming will remain more or less as it is. 


  1       For the sake of this argument, the programming won't
  2       change.
  3  2782                 Where are there going to be financial
  4       implications?
  5  2783                 The obvious one is on your bottom
  6       line, but where else?
  7  2784                 MR. FULLER:  There are going to be
  8       financial implications for the retailers that we serve. 
  9       In Pembroke, a retailer deserves to be able to buy
 10       advertising time on our station in a way that relates
 11       to the size of the market he serves.
 12  2785                 Right now, if we did not have split
 13       feed and if we did not reserve inventory for Pembroke
 14       advertisers, they would have to pay a rate that would
 15       reflect all of our market area, Ottawa and Pembroke. 
 16       That makes it unaffordable for our Pembroke
 17       advertisers.
 18  2786                 So there is a good and big financial
 19       incentive for our retailers, because they are going to
 20       be able to advertise on their local service with their
 21       own advertising.
 22  2787                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are they
 23       going to see lower prices?  Or are you in fact by, as
 24       you say, reserving time for them giving them a deal now
 25       and then just absorbing it in your own bottom line?


  1  2788                 MR. FULLER:  That is what we are
  2       doing right now, and it is untenable in the long term.  
  3       They are going to see, when we split feed, that they
  4       are going to be able to buy air time in our local
  5       programming, their local programming, and they are
  6       going to be able to buy it cheaper, sure.
  7  2789                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Cheaper than
  8       now or at the same price you are giving it to them now,
  9       at your own cost, or at a cost to you?
 10  2790                 MR. FULLER:  I see what you mean. 
 11       Probably a little cheaper than we are even doing now.
 12  2791                 Right now we are subsidizing to about
 13       55-60 per cent of our normal rate card for a Pembroke
 14       advertiser.  That might drop to about 45-50 per cent.
 15  2792                 I think that was outlined, by the
 16       way, in the confidential financial information that we
 17       filed.
 18  2793                 MR. SWITZER:  I think what Mr. Fuller
 19       is referring to is that we have assumed those
 20       additional revenues in our model, as filed in our
 21       revised financials.
 22  2794                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am trying
 23       to have a general discussion that is not confidential. 
 24       If I step over the line, I am sure you have enough fire
 25       power there to do something about it.


  1  2795                 Let me get this right.  Essentially,
  2       if you are selling a $100 advertisement, $100 is what
  3       it would cost for Donnelly Ford in Ottawa.  Once you go
  4       up the Valley to -- I don't remember who is selling
  5       Pontiacs and Fords any more up in Pembroke -- to
  6       Pembroke Ford, shall we call them, at this time you are
  7       selling it to them for around $55 or $60 and absorbing
  8       the loss.
  9  2796                 Is that where we are?
 10  2797                 MR. FULLER:  That is correct, in our
 11       local programming.
 12  2798                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  When and if
 13       we were to grant this segment of the application, you
 14       would still be taking a bit of a loss?  Is that what I
 15       understood you to say?
 16  2799                 Or would you then be just charging
 17       $55 for that because that is what it would be worth in
 18       the more limited market?
 19  2800                 MR. FULLER:  No.  We would be -- we
 20       wouldn't certainly be taking a loss.  We would be
 21       charging the $50 or $55 in the Valley, but we would
 22       also free up that avail to sell in Ottawa to an Ottawa
 23       area retailer who didn't need the Pembroke coverage,
 24       and we would be able to sell that at a good rate,
 25       obviously.


  1  2801                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are
  2       getting $155.
  3  2802                 I should not have said loss.  The
  4       question I meant was:  Would the days of subsidization
  5       be over?
  6  2803                 MR. FULLER:  Yes.
  7  2804                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There would
  8       be no further subsidization on top of the cost.
  9  2805                 At this point you are going to set up
 10       two rate cards.  You are going to have the $55 ad in
 11       Pembroke, and you are going to have the $100 ad in
 12       Ottawa at the same time, but different coverage and
 13       therefore, in your mind, fair.  It will up your
 14       revenues and give the Pembroke people a break, but I
 15       guess it would penalize the Ottawa advertisers a little
 16       bit because they would lose a little bit of their
 17       reach.
 18  2806                 Would you have to lower the price in
 19       Ottawa at all?
 20  2807                 MR. FULLER:  Not really, because
 21       there are a number of advertisers in Ottawa, certainly
 22       the smaller ones, who just don't need the Valley reach. 
 23       We would try to match the spots so that we get the
 24       smaller Ottawa retailers and the smaller --
 25  2808                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If some big


  1       chain like Home Depot wanted to advertise, you would
  2       urge them to get away from the local programming and to
  3       get on to something else.
  4  2809                 MR. FULLER:  Much like the national
  5       advertising, sure.
  6  2810                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It's not my
  7       business, except peripherally, so it is good to have
  8       that kind of explanation.
  9  2811                 Who else might it hurt?  I am
 10       thinking now of radio stations, newspapers, The
 11       Pennysaver, who knows.  Are Pembroke advertisers
 12       bringing business to other communication areas other
 13       than television because they can't afford it, but they
 14       will come romping over to you once you have this split
 15       feed and thereby leave some local Pembroke supplier out
 16       in the cold?
 17  2812                 MR. SWITZER:  Let me begin before
 18       Nigel perhaps chirps in.
 19  2813                 I think it is important to point out,
 20       since you ask who might this hurt, that the only
 21       television competitor we face that sells time in the
 22       area, CJOH and the CTV people, have not opposed this
 23       application.
 24  2814                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There are
 25       other ways to advertise.  I just want to make sure I


  1       understand the full parameters of this.  Sometimes
  2       there are more stakeholders than seem obvious.
  3  2815                 If you cannot afford to advertise on
  4       television, if you are in Pembroke you might buy a full
  5       page in the Pembroke newspaper; if you can't afford it,
  6       you might buy a quarter page; or you might not buy
  7       anything.
  8  2816                 Have you looked down that side as to
  9       where these people might go?
 10  2817                 MR. FULLER:  I am going to let Mike
 11       Keller behind me here answer the question.  He is the
 12       Pembroke Station Manager.
 13  2818                 MR. KELLER:  Commissioner Langford,
 14       in the Pembroke market the competitors that we face at
 15       what we like to call our gut level retail are a daily
 16       newspaper specific to Pembroke itself and the local
 17       radio station.
 18  2819                 The competitive nature of the market
 19       as such, due to the way we have been subsidizing the
 20       Pembroke retailers through rate structure, really won't
 21       change on the street.  We seem to have pegged our rates
 22       specifically to our audiences.
 23  2820                 The latest survey that came out, as
 24       late as last night, supports the rate card that we have
 25       in place at the subsidized level.  So it means little


  1       or no change to what is happening in the market right
  2       now.
  3  2821                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for
  4       that.
  5  2822                 Moving on now to the specifics, I
  6       think I have just a couple for the CFPL
  7       London/Wheatley/Windsor/Wingham group.
  8  2823                 The first one would be with regard to
  9       the media literacy initiative that you have going in
 10       that area.  In taking some advice from Mr. Sherratt and
 11       looking back at that, it has been quite a success.
 12  2824                 I wonder what your plans for the
 13       future are.  Again, perhaps I missed it.  One reads as
 14       carefully as one can, but I didn't see anything in the
 15       application about a statement about going forward on
 16       that.
 17  2825                 There was a lot of enthusiasm about
 18       what you have done so far.  If I have missed it, I
 19       apologize.
 20  2826                 What are the future plans for the
 21       media literacy initiative?
 22  2827                 MR. MUDRY:  Perhaps it would be
 23       useful to have a couple of quick comments about where
 24       we are at at this point in time that Kate Young, our
 25       Director of Community Relations, can talk about.


  1  2828                 Then I think we may go over to Sarah
  2       Crawford, who has been spearheading this for CHUM
  3       Television on a corporate basis.
  4  2829                 MS YOUNG:  At a local level we are
  5       very excited, because this is something that we have
  6       partnered with the London Public Library.  Darryl
  7       Skidmore, the CEO from the library, is here today and
  8       he will be speaking on this as an intervenor.
  9  2830                 This is something that we have
 10       discussed over the past almost 12 months and we have
 11       been able to put together, of course, because of CHUM
 12       Television and their commitment to media literacy, the
 13       CHUM Television Media Literacy Centre.  The library is
 14       still in the process of being built, and it won't
 15       actually open until August 25th.
 16  2831                 We have had meetings with the library
 17       staff to develop this incredible centre right on the
 18       ground floor of the library.  We are very excited about
 19       it.  It is going to be very interactive, with computers
 20       and television sets.
 21  2832                 We are hoping -- and Sarah mentioned
 22       this earlier today -- that because of this centre we
 23       will be able to invite teachers and parents and
 24       students in so that we can, over the course of the next
 25       many years, establish a point where it will be a


  1       central place for all teachers to come to find out more
  2       about what they should be teaching their students in
  3       school.
  4  2833                 I think Sarah mentioned that this
  5       morning, that they really don't have the curriculum
  6       that they need to be able to teach their students.  We
  7       get calls all the time from teachers wanting more
  8       information.  We are hoping that, in the long run, this
  9       media literacy centre will be able to fill in some of
 10       the gaps that there are right now.
 11  2834                 MS CRAWFORD:  I will just jump in to
 12       say that it is in the application.  We are just looking
 13       for the page number right now, but it is mentioned.
 14  2835                 You are right.  The going forward
 15       plans and detail are not mentioned.
 16  2836                 To pick up on what Kate has said, it
 17       is going to be a great community centre for parents,
 18       teachers, educators, any kind of interested party who
 19       wants to avail themselves of this really first in North
 20       America kind of model partnership with the public
 21       library.
 22  2837                 As Kate mentioned, it is a
 23       partnership with the city of London insofar as they are
 24       developing their new public library.  It is going to be
 25       exciting for the community, because it will be not only


  1       a physical venue but a really fantastic centralized
  2       resource of information right there at the library.
  3  2838                 In association with that, they are
  4       developing an original Web site, so it is going to
  5       cross provincial borders and local borders in that
  6       sense and be a useful resource nationally, which ties
  7       in wonderfully with CHUM's partnership and sponsorship
  8       of the media awareness network.
  9  2839                 You will hear also from an intervenor
 10       today who is a local Stratford area school teacher who
 11       can expand more on what the value of the library will
 12       be to the community.
 13  2840                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is very
 14       much in your going forward plans.
 15  2841                 MS CRAWFORD:  Absolutely.  There are
 16       really an unlimited number of ways that we can build
 17       upon this, not only from a pure media literacy point of
 18       view but also from the work that we are doing in our
 19       local programming and cultural diversity, in our
 20       community outreach initiatives.
 21  2842                 The library itself is going to have
 22       very sophisticated meeting space, not only for
 23       teleconferencing and meeting rooms but also a full
 24       theatrical venue for a larger group.
 25  2843                 My colleague is letting me know that


  1       it is on page 11 of the application.
  2  2844                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  On page 11?
  3  2845                 MS CRAWFORD:  Of the supplementary
  4       brief for CFPL and accompanying stations.
  5  2846                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
  6       very much.  I have it right behind me, and obviously I
  7       missed that.  I am delighted to have the reference;
  8       thank you.
  9  2847                 I think that covers the specifics as
 10       I understand them, unless I have missed one.
 11  2848                 What I would like to do now is try to
 12       move to some general questions, obviously about local
 13       and regional programming, and to get some sort of
 14       reaction from the three of you, the three
 15       representatives.
 16  2849                 As I say, I am sorry to freeze
 17       Victoria out, but your time will come.  And when it
 18       does come, you may look back on the day you were frozen
 19       out with some relish.
 20  2850                 All of you were here yesterday, I
 21       assume, cooling your heels and waiting for your turn,
 22       and you heard some of the discussion that I had, and
 23       Commissioner Cardozo.  All of us had a bit of a crack
 24       at it; Vice-Chair Wylie.
 25  2851                 All of us are somewhat perplexed.  We


  1       have taken the point about the licensing and your sense
  2       of the worst case scenario.
  3  2852                 Perhaps I will stop talking in the
  4       collective and speak only for myself.
  5  2853                 I remain somewhat perplexed about the
  6       success that you have built on and the enthusiasm that
  7       you have for local and regional programming.  The
  8       message comes through loud and clear on your videos. 
  9       It comes through loud and clear in your opening
 10       statements.  It comes through loud and clear in your
 11       applications, in the supplementary briefs.  Everything
 12       you list that you are proud of has the word "local" in
 13       it somewhere.
 14  2854                 I think I counted them in the RO's
 15       application, and there were 16 or 17 of them.  I am
 16       going by memory.  And every one of them had the word
 17       "local" in it at least once.
 18  2855                 Now we are hearing, as I understand
 19       it, a kind of general commitment to keep going and to
 20       do as much as possible but a desire -- and I am taking
 21       you at your characterization of it -- to be forthright
 22       and honest and to say we may have to cut back,
 23       depending on what happens economically.
 24  2856                 I suppose really I have to deal with
 25       worst case scenarios here.  There is no point in my


  1       taking a lot of time to say how wonderful you will be
  2       if there is no financial fallout and the best case
  3       scenario goes and it's business as usual.
  4  2857                 We already know how wonderful you
  5       will be.  We have seven years of examples of it --
  6       well, five in some, seven in others.  We have videos. 
  7       We have a record.  We have your own enthusiasm.  We
  8       have platoon after platoon of teams to tell us all
  9       about it.
 10  2858                 So forgive me, if you will, that I go
 11       right to the dark side here and talk to some of you
 12       from the different stations, if I can, about the sort
 13       of scenario that Peter Miller and Jay Switzer and Moses
 14       Znaimer, and some of the others who were on the front
 15       bench yesterday, talked about.
 16  2859                 I guess we might as well start with
 17       the worst of the worst.  This is for any of the three
 18       of you, or all three of you in turn, however you want
 19       to play it.
 20  2860                 What happens if you lose a crew in
 21       what I will call a studio, although I have been
 22       informed you don't call them that?  What happens if you
 23       lose what historically has been called one of your two
 24       studio crews?  What is the fallout?
 25  2861                 That was a long intro for a short


  1       question, but I did want to put it in context.
  2  2862                 MR. FULLER:  We have two crews.  The
  3       morning crew comes in, and they do our new breakfast
  4       show.  They come in at 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning. 
  5       They produce our morning show, and they also produce
  6       the seven-minute news thing that we do at noon.
  7  2863                 The afternoon crew comes in, and they
  8       are responsible for the evening news, the 6 o'clock and
  9       the 11 o'clock.
 10  2864                 I guess that is the issue.  In order
 11       to cut back, when it comes to local, cutting back a
 12       couple of hours doesn't cut back much expense.  The way
 13       to cut back expense, obviously, is to cut back a crew.
 14  2865                 So we would either lose the morning
 15       or the evening.
 16  2866                 Obviously, the choice would probably
 17       be, under a worst case scenario -- and I have to tell
 18       you that this isn't what I am planning for.  I have
 19       some growth going on in this marketplace.  I have
 20       rating point levels climbing in this marketplace.  I
 21       have some nice increases in terms of revenue going this
 22       year, and I am looking forward to turning this thing
 23       around and making good money.
 24  2867                 Having said that, if indeed worst
 25       case scenario happens, the first thing that would


  1       happen is the morning show would probably become a
  2       regional show.
  3  2868                 In that case, I would be bidding, I
  4       would hope, against the other stations to produce the
  5       morning show, and then inserts would be done at the
  6       other stations.  Or it would be done, for instance, in
  7       London or in Barrie and I would produce inserts for my
  8       market.
  9  2869                 In that happenstance, obviously my
 10       local production would be cut back and I would generate
 11       a full shift saving -- once again worst case scenario.
 12  2870                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Before we get
 13       to what those savings would be, in this "Sophie's 
 14       Choice" that you may be forced to make, which way would
 15       you go?  Would you prefer to go morning or would you
 16       prefer to go afternoon?
 17  2871                 Or is it something that will be
 18       foisted upon you?  Will that decision be made somewhere
 19       else?
 20  2872                 MR. FULLER:  I think there is going
 21       to be a lot of input.  We haven't exactly talked about
 22       this a whole lot.  We haven't had much time to prepare.
 23  2873                 We would be sitting down, all of us. 
 24       We have a general manager's meeting at the end of June,
 25       and I am sure it will come up then.


  1  2874                 We will be sitting down and talking
  2       about this very thing.
  3  2875                 I can only speak from the point of
  4       view of RO.  I think it would be extremely important to
  5       keep our 6 o'clock and our 11 o'clock news intact and
  6       to do as much as we can in terms of inserts into our
  7       mornings.
  8  2876                 That would be my first choice, I
  9       guess.
 10  2877                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What would
 11       you be using for those inserts?  Would these be
 12       timeless pieces, as we used to call them, baggers that
 13       would be done by a news crew or an outside field crew
 14       the day before, three days before?  How do you keep it
 15       current?
 16  2878                 MR. FULLER:  Once again, I can only
 17       speak to my station.  In my station, I am lucky.  I
 18       have four radio stations resident in the space.  I can
 19       use my own news backup facilities to produce the video
 20       and the scripts, and we can access also news, weather
 21       and sports from the radio stations.
 22  2879                 So I think probably we would be able
 23       to put a very current package but include breakfast
 24       elements from other markets.
 25  2880                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Before we get


  1       to the money, do any of the other three want to jump in
  2       on that general subject?
  3  2881                 MR. MUDRY:  Yes, just to reiterate
  4       something that Jay Switzer mentioned yesterday.
  5  2882                 Doing a regional morning show is not
  6       the only solution to the doomsday scenario.  There is
  7       other product available that is produced by some other
  8       CHUM stations that could also be run in the mornings,
  9       and certainly with our new stations on the west coast
 10       they could be a source of product that might play
 11       adequately in our market.
 12  2883                 So there are options.  As Nigel has
 13       indicated, we haven't arrived at a final plan, so to
 14       speak, for the doomsday scenario.
 15  2884                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am not
 16       entirely sure how early your friends from Victoria
 17       would have to get up in the morning to do the morning
 18       show for Barrie, but that is something I am sure you
 19       will work out.
 20  2885                 We still are going to lose a crew.  I
 21       have two employee numbers here.  I have 83 at CHRO, 130
 22       at Barrie.
 23  2886                 What do we have, all told, in
 24       London/Wheatley/Wingham?  What is your full contingent
 25       of employees, just the number?


  1  2887                 MR. MUDRY:  The fulltime contingent
  2       at -- are you asking about the total complement we
  3       have?
  4  2888                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.
  5  2889                 MR. MUDRY:  At all three stations
  6       about 180.
  7  2890                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  One hundred
  8       and eighty?
  9  2891                 MR. MUDRY:  Yes.
 10  2892                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If you lose a
 11       crew -- since your microphone is open, I will throw
 12       this one to you first.
 13  2893                 If you lose one of your crews, let's
 14       say for sake of argument your morning crew, because
 15       something is going to be put into the morning show slot
 16       -- Ontario AM, perhaps, as we discussed yesterday, or
 17       your Victorian cousins are going to get up early and
 18       help you through this -- you are obviously going to
 19       lose more than the crew.
 20  2894                 How many people are in the crew, to
 21       begin with?
 22  2895                 MR. MUDRY:  I am going to ask Don
 23       Mumford, who is the head of programming, to take a cut
 24       at that.
 25  2896                 MR. MUMFORD:  As everybody said, we


  1       have really not given this a huge amount of thought as
  2       to exactly what any potential savings would be.
  3  2897                 MR. MILLER:  As Mr. Diefenbaker used
  4       to say:  Now is the time.
  5  2898                 MR. MUMFORD:  It is a little unique
  6       what we do in southwestern Ontario, because we actually
  7       have microwave trucks on the street in Windsor and in
  8       London.  The actual central base for our morning show
  9       is at the Convent Garden Farmers' Market in downtown
 10       London.
 11  2899                 So actually the entire show that we
 12       produce, which is two hours a day, Monday to Friday, is
 13       actually produced remote from the station.  We are
 14       probably talking 15 individuals, thereabouts.  Please
 15       don't quote me on that.
 16  2900                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't have
 17       to.  We are keeping a transcript here.
 18  2901                 MR. MUMFORD:  Well, don't hold me to
 19       it anyway.
 20  2902                 MR. MUDRY:  If I might, it is 15 plus
 21       or minus five.  It is in that order of magnitude.  We
 22       did not come here, as I said, with a specific plan that
 23       earmarked the specific number of people.  But it is
 24       that order of magnitude.
 25  2903                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  In the


  1       horrible vernacular that we have all learned since the
  2       Gulf War and the Bosnia War and the present Afghanistan
  3       conflict, what will be the collateral damage?  Do you
  4       lose a receptionist?  Do you lose some script
  5       assistants?  Do you lose a copy clerk?  Do you lose an
  6       anchor?
  7  2904                 What is the collateral damage beyond
  8       the actual technical crew people that you are losing?
  9  2905                 MR. MUMFORD:  When we spoke of the
 10       number of people that would be affected, that would
 11       certainly include the people who are on-air.  It would
 12       certainly include the people who are in master control
 13       and those areas; audio people.
 14  2906                 It would affect people who drive our
 15       microwave vehicles, camera people, shooters, and so on. 
 16       So all of the various components that go to make up the
 17       production of the programs and to get those programs
 18       on-air would be affected.
 19  2907                 Beyond that, there would not be
 20       substantial, as you put it, collateral damage.
 21  2908                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am not
 22       trying to be maudlin here, but your day would start a
 23       bit later in a sense, wouldn't it.  Can you give that a
 24       little more thought?
 25  2909                 Are you absolutely sure on that, that


  1       we wouldn't be seeing more fallout?
  2  2910                 Don't forget fallout, horribly, is
  3       also savings.  One person's inability to bring home a
  4       pay packet is another person's ability to minimize
  5       their losses.
  6  2911                 I assume that if a prudent
  7       entrepreneurial eye was to start to get somewhat
  8       focused on this, they might be able to go beyond your
  9       first reaction.
 10  2912                 I am not trying to be critical of it,
 11       but it is a first reaction.  Can you think further than
 12       that?  Or should I perhaps go on to one of your
 13       colleagues and give you some time?  Do you want a few
 14       minutes on that?
 15  2913                 MR. MUDRY:  It is a difficult one to
 16       answer specifically at this point in time.  As we have
 17       said, we have not put pen to paper and calculated all
 18       of these things in detail.
 19  2914                 I will say that we, as our colleagues
 20       at The NewRO and at The NewVR, do tend to run some
 21       pretty pared back operations.  There tends to be in
 22       many cases one-of, one-of.  There is one program
 23       manager; there is one this and there is one that.
 24  2915                 There is the possibility that we
 25       might be able to identify some collateral savings in


  1       the form of one or two more people.  That would make
  2       up, in my opinion -- and this is, again, speculative at
  3       this point -- part of the 15 or so that Don Mumford had
  4       alluded to earlier.
  5  2916                 MR. MUMFORD:  If I may, I think it is
  6       important to remember that all three of our stations
  7       broadcast 24 hours a day, seven days a week.  When we
  8       produce any of our shows, whether it be our 6 o'clock
  9       newscast or our morning show, we typically in our
 10       station are constantly multi-tasking.
 11  2917                 We may have somebody who is in
 12       videotape playing back tapes to air that are actually
 13       going on air or ingesting commercials into a non-linear
 14       system.  We will actually get them to participate in
 15       some ancillary way on the morning show.
 16  2918                 What we typically find whenever we
 17       try to make -- especially in southwestern Ontario,
 18       because essentially right now we are running a
 19       three-station system that is fully integrated.  When we
 20       try to make any changes such as this, the domino effect
 21       is quite significant.
 22  2919                 Even what might seem to be the
 23       simplest change has to be mapped out and looked at very
 24       closely, because it has far reaching ramifications.
 25  2920                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Langford,


  1       I don't want to in any way taint your direct
  2       discussions with the managers --
  3  2921                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, good.
  4  2922                 MR. SWITZER:  -- and I would
  5       absolutely avoid any guidance.  But as an example, if
  6       we are talking about southwestern Ontario in a worst
  7       case situation -- and we have asked the managers to
  8       prepare and begin thinking about it.  We have called,
  9       frankly, a retreat to discuss just that a few weeks
 10       from now.
 11  2923                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Interesting
 12       choice of names.
 13  2924                 MR. SWITZER:  In the third year, the
 14       damage, the bottom line that we must work back to in
 15       our worst case situation between the three stations in
 16       the southwest amounts to seven or $800,000, which would
 17       be, in terms of order of magnitude, perhaps roughly
 18       equal to the numbers that these gentlemen are talking
 19       about today, between 15 and 20 people, and associated
 20       other production costs.
 21  2925                 That would be a very difficult --
 22  2926                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That might
 23       give you the dollars, say 20 people.
 24  2927                 MR. SWITZER:  If it involved -- and I
 25       say "if".  If that was their proposal and their


  1       recommendation and we said in the third year the
  2       combination required savings between the PLWINX is in
  3       the order of plus or minus 750 or $800,000, what are
  4       your choices; give us your suggestions as to the least
  5       painful way to do this -- if they were to propose that,
  6       we think the stations would be much worse off.
  7  2928                 But that would generate approximately
  8       what we would require.
  9  2929                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Perhaps I can
 10       ask --
 11  2930                 MS LONE:  Sorry, I was just going to
 12       butt in here.
 13  2931                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Butt away.
 14  2932                 MS LONE:  I work at The NewRO and it
 15       is not from a money point of view but strictly from a
 16       marketing point of view.  For the past four years we
 17       have dedicated our lives to building this station and
 18       to be well respected in the community.  In September we
 19       launched the breakfast show unique only to Ottawa.
 20       People have a certain expectation of us now, which 
 21       again with our ratings last night it proves this.
 22  2933                 I think with the expectations that we
 23       have built with our viewers and the respect we have in
 24       the community, the pare-back scenario is not obviously
 25       what we would like to do.


  1  2934                 From the strictly marketing point of
  2       view and selfish point of view, it takes us back a
  3       step.
  4  2935                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Ms Lone,
  5       would it be helpful -- and I can understand exactly
  6       what you are saying, and perhaps we can have a
  7       discussion on the downside of this, because there will
  8       be a financial downside as well as a financial gain.  I
  9       can't believe that this is just a one-way street.
 10  2936                 Would it be helpful to you and your
 11       colleagues in the three different station groups to
 12       give you a shorter licence term so that you can prove
 13       yourself and show that this worst case scenario in fact
 14       isn't the problem it is; so that you can get out there
 15       and sell; so that you can get out there and find new
 16       sources of revenue and find new ways to make your
 17       energy pay?
 18  2937                 Would it be helpful to have a shorter
 19       licence term so that you are not stuck with seven
 20       years; so that we are not stuck with trying not make
 21       conditions of licence that will bind for seven years,
 22       although I know you can come back?
 23  2938                 Would that be a helpful thing for you
 24       to have?
 25  2939                 MR. MILLER:  I think, Commissioner


  1       Langford, that is not really a fair question directed
  2       at Marlene.
  3  2940                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I direct it
  4       to you, then, based on the -- actually, I think it is
  5       fair to put it to the people who have to live with it.
  6  2941                 But if you want to go first,
  7       Mr. Miller, that is fine with me.
  8  2942                 MR. MILLER:  I will tell you why. 
  9       You are asking a legal matter, a legal matter of a
 10       conditional licence and what the repercussions are of
 11       that.
 12  2943                 I think we have said very clearly
 13       that we need the certainty going forward.  I don't
 14       think we need to repeat what we said yesterday.  I
 15       think we had that conversation.
 16  2944                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, I think
 17       if I feel a question needs asking, I may just be in a
 18       different space than you are, Mr. Miller.  Maybe it is
 19       not as clear in my mind.
 20  2945                 I would like to hear from the troops
 21       on the ground about this cloud hanging over them.  I
 22       would like to hear about how they would feel about
 23       having a smaller time frame where at least they might
 24       feel more secure.
 25  2946                 Or perhaps we would look at different


  1       time frames within it.
  2  2947                 I am curious to know about other
  3       scenarios.  We have heard from the corporate group
  4       about how this might be done.  We have been told by the
  5       corporate group that a lot of decisions are made by
  6       these stations directors.  We have the station
  7       directors in front of us now.
  8  2948                 I don't think it is so much a legal
  9       question.  There is nothing so complicated about the
 10       differences between three and seven years, setting a
 11       time frame as a kind of test over, say, three years,
 12       two years -- we can talk about different numbers --
 13       versus seven years, versus locking into a seven-year
 14       scenario.
 15  2949                 MR. MILLER:  With all due respect,
 16       Commissioner Langford, we are not talking about locking
 17       in cuts.  We are talking about locking in the
 18       flexibility that we as a corporate group need to know
 19       what our minimum commitments are for the next seven
 20       years.
 21  2950                 You are absolutely correct, and we
 22       want you to have the discussion as to what our general
 23       managers and their teams will do as we ask them to deal
 24       with the savings that we think they are going to have
 25       to deal with.  That discussion we encourage you to


  1       have.
  2  2951                 The issue of what this company needs
  3       in terms of certainty on minimum commitments is a
  4       different matter than I think the one that you want to
  5       get into, which is how these teams will face the
  6       challenges of the savings that they are going to need
  7       to seek.
  8  2952                 MR. GARRAWAY:  You were concerned
  9       about getting me on the record, so I will make your day
 10       in that regard.
 11  2953                 I think we should maybe go back to
 12       the basic understanding; that we are not here, I don't
 13       think, to discuss cuts.  That is not what we have done.
 14  2954                 If you look at each of the three
 15       stations represented here, we have grown our stations. 
 16       We have grown our markets.
 17  2955                 Nigel was talking about the growth in
 18       his market.  He is new there and he is having exciting
 19       growth.  We are 47 years in our market and yet we have
 20       just had the highest, year over year, growth in our 6
 21       o'clock news audiences in the history of the station.
 22  2956                 So there are a lot of exciting things
 23       that we continue to do and introduce and be
 24       complimented for and have viewers added to our
 25       complement every day.


  1  2957                 What we are talking about, I think,
  2       is flexibility.  It doesn't seem to me that a
  3       short-term licence hanging over our head as one more
  4       issue would be particularly helpful.  I know it
  5       wouldn't be to me.
  6  2958                 I think what we are looking at is an
  7       opportunity for some very creative, energetic,
  8       committed people to go back and look at their options. 
  9       Of course we are going to look at all of the options
 10       across the station where we can make economies as
 11       necessary.  We would like to preserve what we have.  We
 12       would like to grow what we have.
 13  2959                 There is the reality of a reduced
 14       revenue base that we need to deal with.  I think,
 15       given, the opportunity, we will find creative ways to
 16       do the absolute best.
 17  2960                 Picking up on Mr. Sherratt this
 18       morning, who said it is often very useful to look back,
 19       I think if you look back at the seven-year
 20       accomplishments of the people at this table, you have
 21       to know that we are committed to what we do.  We are
 22       committed to our audiences, and we are committed to our
 23       product, if I can put it that way.  We will remain
 24       committed.
 25  2961                 We are not looking for opportunities


  1       to cut.  It is painful to talk about how many people
  2       would it take to strike from your staff list to make
  3       this work.  If we have our way, it will be none.
  4  2962                 The reality is that we have to look
  5       at everything.
  6  2963                 Give us an opportunity, give us some
  7       flexibility, and watch what we can do.
  8  2964                 MR. MUDRY:  If I can just pick up
  9       from what Doug said, as someone on the ground --
 10  2965                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Could I get
 11       to you in a minute?  I really want to press on this.
 12  2966                 I rarely do this.  I rarely cut
 13       anyone off.  In fact, I don't think I ever have.  But
 14       please excuse me on this one occasion, sir.
 15  2967                 Would it be helpful for us to impose
 16       the sort of higher expectations in the sense of local
 17       or regional numbers, hours, conditions of licence? 
 18       Would that be helpful in the sense of keeping you
 19       focused on the sort of programming you have done in the
 20       past and keeping you focused in finding other sources
 21       of revenue, other ways to make what you are obviously
 22       so proud of continue to work?
 23  2968                 MR. GARRAWAY:  I don't think that
 24       would be helpful.  I think we are focused; we are
 25       committed.  I think we know what the task is.


  1  2969                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What we see
  2       is a potential in the plan you have laid out with cuts
  3       in overall hours in certain areas, looking at minimums,
  4       this sort of language, and the sorts of scenarios that
  5       have been painted both at the corporate level and that
  6       we have spoken about today of cutting crews and
  7       bringing in region-wide, Ontario-wide programming and
  8       feeding bits and pieces in -- as Mr. Fuller said,
  9       rather than having your own show that you people are
 10       obviously so proud of and have demonstrated so ably in
 11       these videos and opening statements.
 12  2970                 All of that is possible if we accept
 13       the minimum numbers you are looking for today and cast
 14       them in some way into conditions of licence.
 15  2971                 On the other hand, it becomes less
 16       possible -- let's leave the financial impact aside for
 17       a moment.  The actual impact on people and on
 18       programming becomes less likely if we build in higher
 19       hours and conditions of licence.
 20  2972                 Wouldn't that give you some comfort?
 21  2973                 MR. MUDRY:  Might I respond to that
 22       as one of this team of general managers?
 23  2974                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.
 24  2975                 MR. MUDRY:  I think that Mr. Sherratt
 25       earlier today in the discussion about different sizes


  1       of cups of coffee, and so on, talked about the
  2       difference between a good cup of coffee and a bad cup
  3       of coffee.  Certainly whatever number of hours are
  4       given to us as a condition of licence of local
  5       programming that we have to produce, if we run into
  6       tough times, if we run into a jam, if the doomsday
  7       scenario comes to pass, our only choice at that point
  8       is to make a rather weak, insipid cup of coffee for our
  9       viewers, which is not going to be serving them.
 10  2976                 That is why, from our standpoint, we
 11       don't believe it would be a good idea to go to the
 12       higher end.  We think it would be more advantageous to
 13       give us the flexibility we have requested.
 14  2977                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There is
 15       another corporate option, and that is to infuse more of
 16       CHUM's money into your situation, into your station, to
 17       help you ride out whatever period of time might need to
 18       be ridden out.
 19  2978                 There are bags of money in different
 20       areas in the CHUM empire, in radio, in specialties,
 21       whatever, that could perhaps be lightened to help you
 22       folks along.
 23  2979                 Is that one of the scenarios you have
 24       looked at?  Do you know?  You may not know.
 25  2980                 MR. MUDRY:  Unfortunately, it is not


  1       entirely under my control, and I would have to defer to
  2       those whose control it is under.
  3  2981                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We could
  4       structure licence conditions in such a way that that
  5       might be more palatable.  If certain conditions had to
  6       be met, perhaps the only way to do it would be to
  7       either go the shareholders or go to the bank.  If this
  8       worst case scenario that has been painted in your
  9       application in here were to transpire -- and I, for
 10       one, don't think it will; but that is just my own view
 11       of it.  I don't have as glum a view of the future as
 12       you do.
 13  2982                 I don't know when to get back to
 14       Mr. McLaughlin.  I don't want to leave him out in the
 15       rain.
 16  2983                 Also, Mr. Sherratt, or somebody, had
 17       a light on there for a second.
 18  2984                 MR. SHERRATT:  You suggested that
 19       they would come to CHUM's door, and we would have a
 20       bagful of money sitting there for them.
 21  2985                 I would like to reiterate what has
 22       been said here more than once during this proceeding:
 23       that we already have lost $46 million on these stations
 24       in southern Ontario since we took them over.  They are
 25       just starting to see their way out of that.  The money


  1       has to come from somewhere.  There isn't a magic genie
  2       in the basement on Yonge Street printing money every
  3       day.  The money comes from advertisers and from the
  4       businesses that we operate.
  5  2986                 Eventually, every unit has to become
  6       self-sustaining and has to be able to contribute its
  7       part to the overall success of the company.
  8  2987                 We have made those investments.  We
  9       continue to make them today, and we will continue to
 10       make them.  Based on what we know now, our revenue
 11       level against our conventional television stations is
 12       going to decrease.  That is a fact of life.  We accept
 13       that.
 14  2988                 The decision was made to put more
 15       television in Toronto.  It has to affect what is there,
 16       what is already there doing what it is doing.  There
 17       has to be fall-out.  It is impossible to have it any
 18       other way.
 19  2989                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that's
 20       a projection, I would say, not a fact of life yet.  You
 21       have to admit that.  It is a projection.  It may be
 22       your best effort.  It may be a wise projection.  It
 23       might be a right projection, but at this point it is a
 24       projection.
 25  2990                 MR. SHERRATT:  It would be


  1       irresponsible of us to come here before you today and
  2       say nothing has changed; that our revenues will be
  3       wonderful; that we are going to do all of this
  4       programming for the next seven years and then find out
  5       that we can't do it.  That would be irresponsible on
  6       our part.
  7  2991                 We have come here to put the facts
  8       before you as we see them.
  9  2992                 I agree with you that the sky is not
 10       falling, and it won't fall.  There are clouds on the
 11       horizon.  But as in all things, the weather will clear
 12       and we will proceed ahead.
 13  2993                 I hope, like you, that the weather
 14       clears faster than perhaps our projections indicate it
 15       will.  If it does, the programming will be there.  If
 16       it doesn't, we have to be nimble enough to react
 17       quickly, very quickly, in order to do what we can.
 18  2994                 In our 48-year history, we have only
 19       had one case I can think of where we did actual layoffs
 20       as such.  It happened when there was a downturn in an
 21       area and a decline in television in the Maritimes,
 22       where we had to cut out a section of a show.  That is
 23       when it happened.  That is the only time I can remember
 24       having mass layoffs.
 25  2995                 That is the last thing that this


  1       company ever wants to do.  Our people are our most
  2       important product.  We have built everything we have
  3       with the best people in this business, so we are not
  4       going after them.
  5  2996                 It is quite upsetting to have this
  6       discussion, but we felt we had to bring it before you. 
  7       There are people at home tonight wondering what might
  8       happen to them.
  9  2997                 I can tell them and I can tell you
 10       that we are going to look under every rock, we are
 11       going to cancel paper clip purchases, we won't have any
 12       pencils before the people go.  But if something happens
 13       that we have to cut, the only way you can do it is in a
 14       chunk.  That is what they have been trying to describe
 15       to you.
 16  2998                 That is only one way we are going to
 17       find this money, and that is sort of the last way we
 18       hope to have to find it.
 19  2999                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Let me try
 20       something on you, Mr. Sherratt, using your word
 21       "irresponsible".  I am borrowing it from you.  It isn't
 22       a word I thought of until you used it.  Let me try a
 23       scenario on you.
 24  3000                 Might it not be equally or even more
 25       irresponsible to give up too soon on a dream and a type


  1       of programming that you have built for so many years
  2       that you have made your own just -- let me finish,
  3       please.
  4  3001                 I am not often that long -- well,
  5       that's not true.  I do go on, don't I.  Let me go on
  6       this one more time, and the next as well.
  7  3002                 Wouldn't it be perhaps more
  8       irresponsible to even contemplate scenarios of throwing
  9       that away or reducing it or morphing into more of the
 10       same when what you have built, as we have seen today
 11       and yesterday, as Mr. Znaimer and Mr. Switzer have told
 12       us, going back to Mr. Switzer's parents and "Moses and
 13       the bullrushes", to the dawn of time -- wouldn't it be
 14       just as irresponsible, perhaps more so, to contemplate
 15       throwing that away, to waste a lot of time working on
 16       scenarios to throw that away when if things are
 17       improving, if things are beginning to turn around, the
 18       other alternative is to inject a little more of the
 19       shareholders' cash into it, of the corporate cash into
 20       it, and keep it going and let it grow and let it be
 21       exactly what you tell us it can be?
 22  3003                 MR. SHERRATT:  That is what we do. 
 23       That is what we have been doing for the last four and a
 24       half years since we acquired these stations.  That is
 25       precisely what we have been doing and precisely what we


  1       are going to continue to do.
  2  3004                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You have come
  3       to us and you have kind of waved the TV policy and
  4       said:  We can look at local in this way.  We aren't
  5       required to do any more than to reflect somehow the
  6       region.  Here's the bare minimum.  We are going to add
  7       a little more to the minimum but let us have the
  8       flexibility to do a lot less and to change what we do
  9       into something else, from straight local to something
 10       regional.
 11  3005                 I would remind you, as I am sure you
 12       must know, television policy yes, perhaps would allow
 13       that; but television policy isn't made in a vacuum. 
 14       When the television policy was constructed, you were
 15       what you are.
 16  3006                 When we make a statement that local,
 17       in our view, is being well served, you are part of that
 18       equation.
 19  3007                 To come back and say now you have
 20       made that statement and your own policy allows us to
 21       back out the back door, so we may give up on a dream;
 22       we may give up on the whole raison d'être that we
 23       described when we made this takeover or exchange
 24       application back in 1997.
 25  3008                 That strikes me as perhaps


  1       irresponsible, if I may editorialize and use your word. 
  2       It also strikes me as perhaps extreme when the
  3       alternative is perhaps to take another view and to stay
  4       with your vision, to stay with your dream, and to stay
  5       with the kind of service that your intervenors are
  6       going to come in here today and crow about --
  7       rightfully so.  That seems to me to be the more logical
  8       course.
  9  3009                 MR. SHERRATT:  If that is the
 10       impression we have left up until now, we have done a
 11       disastrous job here.  That is not what we hold close to
 12       our hearts or that we hold close to what our business
 13       practice is or what we are going to do.  That is not
 14       what we have been telling you.
 15  3010                 We have been telling you that our
 16       revenues are going to drop.  When the revenues drop,
 17       you have to find a way to make savings in order to
 18       continue to do the kinds of things that we do hold
 19       close to our hearts, that we are going to continue to
 20       do and intend to continue to do.
 21  3011                 The only way you can do that is to
 22       look around at ways to save money so you can keep the
 23       businesses going.
 24  3012                 What we have been trying to say is
 25       that the last thing in the world we want to do is hurt


  1       our local service.  Local service is two things: it's
  2       quantity and it's quality.
  3  3013                 The quantity that we are talking
  4       about and that you are thinking about, Commissioner, is
  5       very recent.  Those numbers have come off pretty good
  6       times and high investment to do that.
  7  3014                 Now we say:  Wait a minute.  We are
  8       going to have to look at every way possible, because
  9       our revenue base that we had planned on, and that all
 10       our planning is based on, is going to be eroded.
 11  3015                 How do we fix that?  We reduce
 12       overheads as best we can and not hurt our basic
 13       fundamental structure and what we are: our programming
 14       and our reflection of the community.
 15  3016                 Doing it with weak tonnage would be
 16       worse, I suggest, than doing less of it and continuing
 17       to do it exceedingly well to the satisfaction of the
 18       people that we serve.
 19  3017                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  If that is
 20       the message, let me go back to the station managers
 21       now, if I can categorize you generally in that way. 
 22       Everybody has slightly different titles, and I don't
 23       want to offend anyone.
 24  3018                 If that is the message, what we have
 25       just heard, then how do you continue to serve your


  1       communities locally under the type of régime that
  2       Mr. Sherratt has just described?  How do you have the
  3       certainty that you can tell the charities when they
  4       come in, the charities in these interventions that we
  5       have books of that laud you for your work -- and
  6       properly so, I assume -- the very points that you have
  7       seen to put into your briefs, your supplementary briefs
  8       that you are so proud of, the community work, how do
  9       you tell these people that you are going to be there
 10       for them under those conditions?
 11  3019                 MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Because we work for
 12       CHUM and because of our history, we have served our
 13       communities well and I believe with all my heart that
 14       we will continue to serve our communities well.
 15  3020                 I have been listening here about
 16       flexibility, and to me that is absolutely key.  There
 17       is some uncertainty.  We do know that revenues are
 18       going to drop and that it is going to affect the
 19       station that I work at.
 20  3021                 We don't make widgets.  We are not a
 21       car factory.  So to say that we are going to drop a
 22       shift is not something that we can equate to, because
 23       we create television.  We have an integrated staff.  It
 24       means an entire rethink, using some very creative
 25       people that we have at our station, to make this work.


  1  3022                 I believe with all my heart that CHUM
  2       will do everything it can to help us, to provide that
  3       guidance, because it does believe in that intensely
  4       local, intensely community-oriented television station.
  5  3023                 I believe what we need is that
  6       flexibility so there isn't a cloud hanging over our
  7       head.
  8  3024                 When you talked about a shorter
  9       licence period, I can't think of anything that would
 10       put a bigger cloud over our head than that, for me, in
 11       attracting talent, in attracting the kind of people at
 12       our station that are going to have to help us get
 13       through this.
 14  3025                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr.
 15       McLaughlin, I appreciate your eloquence and your
 16       commitment, and I don't say that to kiss you off, as my
 17       kids would say.  I do appreciate it.  It is helpful to
 18       us to hear this kind of thing, to know what kind of raw
 19       material this corporate entity is lucky enough to have
 20       onside and on its team.
 21  3026                 But when I talk about a shorter term,
 22       let me try a scenario on the folks from London.
 23  3027                 In a sense your very application for
 24       London/Wingham/Wheatley/Windsor has a built-in two-year
 25       licence term.  We didn't create that.  You did.


  1  3028                 You know what I am referring to. 
  2       There was to be a drastic cutback to some of these
  3       smaller areas.  The Mayor of Windsor spoke out. 
  4       Perhaps that wasn't what sparked your change; perhaps
  5       something internally did.  Something sparked a change,
  6       and now you have refiled another scenario where for two
  7       years you would supply the same sort of local input and
  8       local sensitivity that you have been supplying.
  9  3029                 That in a sense is a kind of shorter
 10       term of licence that you have created yourself.
 11  3030                 There obviously is some comfort in it
 12       for you.
 13  3031                 MR. MUDRY:  That is an interesting
 14       observation that you have made.  Originally, as you had
 15       said, the company had filed for there to be no separate
 16       local programming in Windsor and no separate local
 17       programming in Wingham if the worst case scenario were
 18       to have taken place.
 19  3032                 In fact, prior to the recent filing
 20       by CHUM Limited with regard to what they saw as the
 21       need for flexibility we at CFPL Television had lengthy
 22       discussions with the company saying:  Don't do this. 
 23       Give us the chance to show you that with what we had
 24       originally filed for these stations, we can make it
 25       work.


  1  3033                 At that point Jay Switzer and Ron
  2       Waters and so on said:  Okay, in essence we will give
  3       you a couple of years to do it, in the way that that
  4       was filed.
  5  3034                 I think that says something, too,
  6       about the dynamics in the company and about the
  7       commitment to trying to find a way to make these things
  8       work locally.
  9  3035                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We could go
 10       on for a long time -- yes, Mr. Znaimer, go ahead.
 11  3036                 MR. ZNAIMER:  I was going to express
 12       a little puzzlement about your position.
 13  3037                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Actually, I
 14       don't have a position, but I have some puzzlement
 15       myself.  Maybe that is what you are hearing.
 16  3038                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Indeed, and you have
 17       made some suggestions.
 18  3039                 What puzzles me is why you would
 19       prefer to take from us at the point of a condition of
 20       licence what we would freely give, and why at the
 21       moment of hypothetical crisis when we need the most
 22       flexibility you would shackle us to a new hearing? 
 23       That is exactly what we hoped to avoid.
 24  3040                 It is the flexibility to act in the
 25       moment that we are seeking.


  1  3041                 We have assured you time and time
  2       again that the instant our time of troubles is past we
  3       would return to this rather more sophisticated version
  4       of these stations that you now see today.
  5  3042                 To stretch an analogy, we have built
  6       this up relatively recently into quite a Rolls Royce
  7       operation, and if we have to drive a Chevy for a year
  8       or two we will do that.  We will still get to where we
  9       are going.
 10  3043                 As our situation improves, you can
 11       see from the intensity of the people before you and the
 12       track record that we will return to this fancier
 13       vehicle.
 14  3044                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would
 15       suppose -- and we normally don't answer questions here;
 16       we ask them.  It is a fair question, I think, and I
 17       will try to answer it.  I won't answer more than one,
 18       though, because I don't want to set the kind of
 19       precedent that would set my fellow Commissioners teeth
 20       to grinding.
 21  3045                 I would suppose that my line of
 22       questioning springs directly out of the tone that runs
 23       through your entire application on this question of
 24       local/regional programming.
 25  3046                 I am puzzled, as I said yesterday, by


  1       the disconnect between the history that we have in
  2       video, on paper, in words, and the kind of black sense
  3       that you have been dealt a blow and the only way out
  4       may be to abandon what has made you so distinct and
  5       what your group, if I can put it that way, your
  6       conventional group -- I know you dislike that word, but
  7       we do have to try to frame it -- has spent a lifetime
  8       creating.  To somehow even put water in that wine
  9       perplexes me.
 10  3047                 If you had simply suggested it once
 11       or twice, but it runs through -- it is difficult to
 12       state.  I may be exaggerating.  I will say, for the
 13       sake of context, that it seems to run through every
 14       third paragraph of your supplementary briefs.  It just
 15       goes on and on and on.
 16  3048                 That, of course, brings its own
 17       message.  The message is not a very optimistic one.  It
 18       seems to me that we look at what we have.  We see the
 19       message that comes through this repetition, repetition
 20       and repetition, and we say to ourselves -- or I say to
 21       myself; I had better speak in the singular.
 22  3049                 I say to myself, as a regulator in
 23       the public interest:  What do I do here in the public
 24       interest?  What am I really being told here, and what
 25       do I do to ensure that I get the message and that we


  1       protect the public interest and community interest at
  2       all levels?
  3  3050                 That is the answer to that.
  4  3051                 MR. ZNAIMER:  If the written
  5       submissions did give you that impression, we are here
  6       to correct it.
  7  3052                 There is no question of abandon. 
  8       That word was never used by anyone in our entire
  9       delegation.
 10  3053                 What we are hypothesizing here is a
 11       theoretical retreat.  We have indicated that we want to
 12       make it as modest as possible, as small a retreat for
 13       as small a period of time as possible.
 14  3054                 For the rest, I would just be
 15       repeating everything you have heard.  As you say, you
 16       will hear from intervenors.
 17  3055                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't think
 18       everyone got a chance, but everyone had a chance on
 19       this issue.  Even Mr. McLaughlin got in, and I am glad
 20       of that.
 21  3056                 I think that we have covered the
 22       ground today.  I hope we have.  My colleagues may have
 23       other questions.  We have done the specifics.  We have
 24       looked again from the front lines at this whole
 25       question of local and, much to Mr. Miller's horror, I


  1       suppose, we plumbed some areas he perhaps wished we
  2       wouldn't.
  3  3057                 Thank you very much.  Those are all
  4       of my questions.
  5  3058                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
  6       Grauer.
  7  3059                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Just one thing
  8       that may perhaps explain certainly where I am coming
  9       from and perhaps my colleagues.
 10  3060                 Throughout a period of time when you
 11       have been before the Commission successfully applying
 12       for specialty services, successfully applying for
 13       licences on the west coast most recently, the arguments
 14       and the rationale in particular with the specialty
 15       services has been that you had conventional services
 16       that were there, were strong, can subsidize these
 17       babies, get them launched, and that the whole was
 18       greater than the sum of its parts; that the synergies
 19       were the key.
 20  3061                 That, in fact, was accepted by the
 21       Commission and you have been very successful in that
 22       respect.
 23  3062                 When I was going over the
 24       applications I actually went back and got the original
 25       application for Pulse24, because I thought it would be


  1       instructive to look.  In particular it was manageable,
  2       the Pulse24 application, with your Citytv service.
  3  3063                 I note that you highlight stability. 
  4       You say:
  5                              "It takes financial depth and
  6                              professional discipline not to
  7                              panic at the first sign of
  8                              trouble.  We are known for
  9                              smart, controlled advertising,
 10                              selling at reasonable rates and
 11                              without alarm even during tough
 12                              times."  (As read)
 13  3064                 Later on in the application you talk
 14       about presenting Pulse24 as a stand-alone channel for
 15       purposes of analysis.
 16                              "It is important to note that
 17                              the direct operating costs
 18                              provided are low because they
 19                              are incremental to our existing
 20                              infrastructures.  This leverage
 21                              allows Pulse24 to minimize cable
 22                              and advertising revenue."
 23                              (As read)
 24  3065                 This is where we struggle, because it
 25       was a viable argument when you were looking for new


  1       licences.  But now when we are not necessarily
  2       persuaded that the addition of two new channels in the
  3       Toronto area, after a period of some 25 years, is a
  4       death knell, you are coming looking for relief of some
  5       kind.  When we look at the big package, as we say we
  6       are going to do on the TV policy, it is a bit
  7       challenging perhaps for us.
  8  3066                 We are here to make sure the public
  9       is getting its return.  Certainly the shareholders have
 10       done well over the years, and we just want to keep
 11       making sure the public does.
 12  3067                 MR. ZNAIMER:  I want to assure you we
 13       are not panicking.  In fact, what we want to avoid is
 14       that moment of panic when we might have to come back
 15       here and prostrate ourselves before the Commission, and
 16       then that Commission would likely say to us:  How come
 17       you didn't tell us at the moment that you were up for
 18       renewal that you were facing these kinds of problems?
 19  3068                 What we are asking for simply is: 
 20       Should that moment arrive, that we have the ability to
 21       do what we must as professionals to respond.
 22  3069                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 23  3070                 MR. GRAY:  I would like to add
 24       something to your question, very quickly.
 25  3071                 You talked about what is in the best


  1       interest of the public.  I think the point that needs
  2       to be made, certainly with respect to viewers of CHRO,
  3       is that the worst case scenario for the public in
  4       Ottawa would have been if CHUM had not come along. 
  5       This television station probably wouldn't exist now.
  6  3072                 In 1997 when CHUM acquired CHRO, we
  7       were doing what we called 12 hours of local news, but
  8       it really wasn't local news.  I was the news director. 
  9       I have to take responsibility for that.
 10  3073                 We had a staff of six on-air; three
 11       of them were reporters.  We had a budget of $900,000. 
 12       We were stealing material from CJOH-TV and airing it as
 13       part of our local newscast.  They were a sister station
 14       of ours.  We were taking material from the CTV National
 15       News Bureau.  We perhaps had two local stories in our
 16       newscast every night at 6 o'clock.  We had no live-eye.
 17  3074                 I can recall borrowing a live-eye
 18       from CJOH and using it over a three-day span once in
 19       three years.
 20  3075                 Under CHUM, at CHRO the size of the
 21       news department has grown to more than 70.  Our annual
 22       budget for news is in the neighbourhood of $4 million. 
 23       We have eight senior editorial staff.  We have 16
 24       on-air staff, all of them functioning as reporters and
 25       only twice in the last four and a half years -- that is


  1       twice in four and a half years -- have we ever run a
  2       packaged item by a reporter who doesn't work for our
  3       television station.
  4  3076                 The point that I want to make here is
  5       that we do not want to make cuts, but if we have to
  6       make cuts then our viewers are still going to be better
  7       off.  We are still going to be serving them much more
  8       substantively than we would have in the past and
  9       certainly better than others currently are.
 10  3077                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 11  3078                 MR. ZNAIMER:  I would like to add one
 12       last word on this subject.  The reason I am so
 13       anguished about it is that I am the voice in the
 14       boardroom that pushes for production.  I am the voice
 15       in the boardroom that wants to expand service.
 16  3079                 Any rational person reading this
 17       transcript would say, particularly from a business
 18       point of view:  Don't you ever do one iota more than is
 19       in the minimum, because you will be hung on it forever.
 20  3080                 What we said to you yesterday is you
 21       allowed us the flexibility to considerably expand our
 22       service.  Nobody called to say don't you dare do that. 
 23       So we expanded up, and up comes a time when we might
 24       have to "expand" down -- negative expansion -- and then
 25       we will be back again.


  1  3081                 I think this is a terrible precedent
  2       for a Commission that really wants people to do their
  3       best all the time.
  4  3082                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Another
  5       rational person might look at it and say:  They like
  6       you.  They like what you are doing, and they are
  7       encouraging you to do it more.
  8  3083                 MR. ZNAIMER:  Tough love.
  9  3084                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It works for
 10       my kids.
 11  3085                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 12       Cardozo.
 13  3086                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Just a quick
 14       statement and a quick question.
 15  3087                 I have been watching this panel and
 16       the previous ones in terms of the kind of community
 17       relations that you have done and that you have listed. 
 18       I think you do it for the purposes of being a local
 19       corporation and being involved in the community.
 20  3088                 I just want to note that we have not
 21       missed that, and we have been looking at those lists
 22       quite closely.
 23  3089                 On the matter of aboriginal
 24       programming that is done in various places, including
 25       the PSA and others, do you co-operate with APTN?  Have


  1       you got to the stage where you make that kind of
  2       programming available to them, as well?
  3  3090                 What I am thinking of is:  Is that
  4       programming made in a place like London, or does it
  5       have a chance to go onto a national network like APTN?
  6  3091                 MS BURKE:  At RO we do produce the
  7       local aboriginal program "Aboriginal Voices".  This
  8       relationship that we have had has lasted over the past
  9       seven to ten years.
 10  3092                 Interestingly enough, once the
 11       program does air on The NewRO, it does air on the APTN
 12       network.  So we are very proud of that.
 13  3093                 One of the shows that we had in
 14       development this year, "Chief Will Commanda", was also
 15       broadcast on our air, and we got a lovely letter from
 16       one of our viewers wanting to know when it would be
 17       broadcast again because it did reflect some very
 18       positive issues and was of interest to their children.
 19  3094                 MR. SWITZER:  Commissioner Cardozo,
 20       at a national level, at a corporate level, the
 21       relationships with the network are excellent.  We have
 22       ongoing discussions and meetings.  Some of the
 23       programmers on the music channels, particularly as
 24       pertains to youth, are involved.  Sarah Crawford has
 25       been very involved.  Locally in Vancouver -- who are


  1       not at this table right now -- at CKVU have
  2       connections, as do obviously our staff in Victoria. 
  3       Howard and Laura are here.
  4  3095                 There are all kinds of ongoing
  5       exchange of programs, making sure that we are covering
  6       events in both directions.  The relationship is
  7       exceptional, in part because it has happened naturally
  8       and in part because I am making sure it is a priority.
  9  3096                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you very
 10       much.
 11  3097                 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
 12  3098                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 13       much.
 14  3099                 We are now going to take the first
 15       intervention, and then we will break for an hour for
 16       dinner and come back afterwards.  There is an
 17       intervenor we are trying to accommodate who has to make
 18       a presentation elsewhere.
 19  3100                 Thank you, all, for what has been a
 20       longer and more difficult, shall we say, hearing than
 21       perhaps we had thought.  I think a lot of the issues
 22       are on the record, and for your co-operative answers we
 23       thank you very much.
 24  3101                 MR. SWITZER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman
 25       and Commissioners, for a very constructive process.


  1  3102                 MR. LEBEL:  Mr. Chairman, while the
  2       panel stands down, I would like to indicate that
  3       intervenors Nos. 3, 18 and 24 on the agenda will not
  4       appear.  These interventions will remain on the public
  5       file as non-appearing interventions.
  6  3103                 Intervention No. 11 will appear now
  7       via telephone.
  8  3104                 Mr. Chairman, since we are running
  9       late, and since intervenors appearing via telephone
 10       were advised that they would appear earlier than it is
 11       now, we will alternate between intervenors appearing
 12       here and on the telephone.
 13  3105                 The first appearing intervenor will
 14       be the Directors Guild of Canada.  Appearing on their
 15       behalf is Mr. Alan Goluboff, with Mr. Grant Buchanan.
 16       --- Pause
 17       PHASE II
 18  3106                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À
 19       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
 20  3107                 Counsel?
 21  3108                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 22  3109                 I would like to clarify for
 23       intervenors that the Commission has asked that a number
 24       of documents and information be filed by the Applicant. 
 25       We will follow the same procedure we followed with


  1       regard to the very first group of materials; that is,
  2       ten days for intervenors to reply upon having received
  3       the information and three days after that for CHUM to
  4       reply to that.
  5  3110                 Any confidential material will have
  6       to be decided by the Commission beforehand.
  7  3111                 MR. LEBEL:  Gentlemen, you have ten
  8       minutes to make your presentation.
 10  3112                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  Thank you very much,
 11       Commissioners.  It is our pleasure to be here.
 12  3113                 My name is Alan Goluboff.  I am the
 13       President of the Directors Guild of Canada.  With me
 14       today are Pamela Brand, our National Executive
 15       Director, and Grant Buchanan of McCarthy Tétrault, our
 16       legal counsel.
 17  3114                 CHUM has made significant
 18       contributions to the Canadian broadcasting system.  It
 19       has invented and exported a brand known the world over. 
 20       CHUM's championing and support of the independent
 21       filmmaker must be commended, and we hope all the other
 22       broadcasters might do the same.
 23  3115                 We support the renewal of all of the
 24       CHUM licences being considered in this proceeding. 
 25       However, these are seven-year licences, and we have


  1       recommended four specific additions and/or
  2       clarifications.
  3  3116                 The first is the failure of Citytv to
  4       move to eight hours of priority programming per week
  5       during the licence term.  The second is that the
  6       appropriate benchmark to be used for the expenditure
  7       benefits at CKVU in Vancouver be clarified.  The third
  8       relates to specific commitments with respect to the
  9       broadcasting of programs produced by B.C. independent
 10       producers and resulting from the benefits package at
 11       CKVU.  The fourth is a suggestion we have made that 75
 12       per cent of the priority programming aired on CHUM's
 13       stations consist of Canadian independently-produced
 14       programming.
 15  3117                 Before addressing these detailed
 16       recommendations, we would like to comment on the issue
 17       of CHUM's current situation.
 18  3118                 CHUM opposed the licensing of any new
 19       stations in Toronto and, in the wake of the
 20       Commission's approval of the two stations, filed
 21       supplementary evidence from its own sales department in
 22       this proceeding.
 23  3119                 In the Commission's introduction to
 24       the Toronto decisions, it said:
 25                              "...the fact that the existing


  1                              licensees are major broadcasters
  2                              makes them well positioned to
  3                              compete...
  4                              Based upon available economic
  5                              forecasts, the growth of
  6                              television advertising revenues
  7                              is expected to further
  8                              contribute to the capacity of
  9                              the markets to absorb the entry
 10                              of two new stations in the
 11                              Toronto area...
 12                              Also, as previously discussed,
 13                              the regional coverage and
 14                              concomitant revenue enjoyed by
 15                              the majority of the incumbent
 16                              stations will aid those
 17                              licensees in absorbing the
 18                              impact of new local television
 19                              services..."
 20  3120                 The same considerations that
 21       propelled the Commission to overcome CHUM's concerns in
 22       that Toronto situation should, in our view, also apply
 23       here.  We are not proposing huge changes to what CHUM
 24       has already promised, and these should be within the
 25       ability of the CHUM organization to achieve.


  1  3121                 Citytv should be required to air
  2       eights hours of priority programming per week.
  3  3122                 The Guild finds it unacceptable that
  4       CHUM is not stepping up to the plate with respect to
  5       bringing its flagship station up to the industry
  6       standard of eight hours per week.  The eight-hour
  7       figure not only applies to CanWest and CTV.  All of
  8       CHUM's other stations are at the eight-hour per week
  9       level.  Even all of the Craig stations are going to
 10       eight hours, even though they cover only 42 per cent of
 11       Canada.
 12  3123                 Instead, CHUM offers only six hours,
 13       growing to seven hours in the latter years of the
 14       seven-year term.  Given that we are already in the
 15       month of May, we suggested that the movement to eight
 16       hours could be deferred a year, but no more than that.
 17  3124                 Citytv is one of the best known
 18       brands in the country.  We outlined in our brief a
 19       number of additional reasons for going to eight hours,
 20       including that Citytv is available now to more than 13
 21       million Canadians.  We also noted in the Commission's
 22       Toronto introduction the comment that CHUM's
 23       conventional stations have the ability to reach 67 per
 24       cent of Canadians.  Not only that, but they reach most
 25       of them more than once!


  1  3125                 In our view, the power of the CHUM
  2       organization as evidenced in venues other than
  3       regulatory proceedings ought to be sufficient to
  4       justify an eight-hour per week requirement.
  5  3126                 Last week CHUM reported great
  6       six-month results.  Revenues were up over 16 per cent
  7       year over year and EBITDA was 15.6 per cent compared
  8       with 13.8 per cent last year.  Notwithstanding the two
  9       new Toronto licences, management is quoted as saying
 10       that it "does not expect the impact on the Company's
 11       revenues as a whole to be material".
 12  3127                 CHUM argues in its reply that
 13       Citytv's character and reputation will be harmed and
 14       that the imposition of further requirements at this
 15       time could well have the effect of "killing the golden
 16       goose that laid the golden egg".  While the fractured
 17       fairy tale analogy is not necessarily misplaced, we
 18       don't think that adding one hour to the seven proposed
 19       by CHUM is going to have anything like the impact they
 20       suggest.
 21  3128                 This is not a complete rewriting of
 22       the television policy.  Rather, if Citytv is not moved
 23       up to eight hours, it will be the only station of any
 24       size that is owned by an entity covering more than 40
 25       per cent of Canada that is not at that level.  All of


  1       the stations owned by CBC, CTV, CanWest, Craig and CHUM
  2       -- except Citytv.
  3  3129                 MS BRAND:  Thank you, Alan.
  4  3130                 We indicated our concern about proper
  5       benchmarking of transfer benefits at the time of the
  6       CKVU hearing.  This concern was heightened when we
  7       reviewed the numbers in the CKVU licence renewal
  8       document.  They were even lower than the projections at
  9       the time of the CKVU hearing, a development which is
 10       clearly unacceptable.  In the takeover application CHUM
 11       was planning to spend $7.7 million on drama over the
 12       licence term, without benefits, but now that has sunk
 13       to $4.5 million for drama and comedy combined.
 14  3131                 At the time of the takeover hearing
 15       CHUM proposed to use a three-year rolling average of
 16       expenditures on its existing stations as the benchmark
 17       rather than using what CanWest had been spending on
 18       those categories at CKVU.  The Commission has always
 19       used what had been spent at the station being acquire
 20       as the appropriate measure.
 21  3132                 In its decision the Commission
 22       appeared to agree with that.  We were advised at the
 23       time of filing our intervention that the subsequent
 24       meeting with CHUM to hash out the reporting
 25       requirements has not yet occurred.


  1  3133                 CHUM's reply indicates that now these
  2       meetings are under way.  Accordingly, we will leave it
  3       to the Commission to ensure that the appropriate
  4       benchmark is made clear since:
  5  3134                 1.  It forms the basis of the
  6       incrementality of CHUM's biggest CKVU promise: $7
  7       million.
  8  3135                 2. CHUM's renewal document shows
  9       millions of dollars less in drama spending than was
 10       projected at the time of the CKVU hearing.
 11  3136                 In the renewal CHUM appeared to
 12       commit to airing all feature films produced with the
 13       CKVU benefits monies but not necessarily the
 14       documentaries.  The Guild thinks the Commission should
 15       require CHUM to broadcast all of the programs created
 16       using this initiative, both documentaries and feature
 17       films.  This requirement should be set as a condition
 18       of both CKVU and Citytv by way of condition of licence.
 19  3137                 With respect to the commitment to
 20       broadcast the short fiction films created by the
 21       "Vancouver's Other Stories" initiative, CHUM should be
 22       required by way of condition of licence to broadcast
 23       all of these programs on CKVU.
 24  3138                 CHUM stopped short of making a
 25       commitment with respect to a minimum amount of priority


  1       programming that would consist of Canadian
  2       independently-produced production.  In the Guild's
  3       view, CHUM should be required to ensure that a minimum
  4       of 75 per cent of the priority programming aired on its
  5       stations consists of independently-produced programs. 
  6       This is the same level as CanWest and CTV had enshrined
  7       in their station group renewal decisions.  There should
  8       also be a reporting requirement with respect to
  9       independent production as is the case with those
 10       companies.
 11  3139                 We conclude by noting that the DGC
 12       and its members do appreciate all that CHUM does for
 13       the system, and we do support a full seven-year renewal
 14       for its conventional stations.  In our ten minutes
 15       today we have highlighted four matters that we think
 16       need to be fixed and/or clarified as part of this
 17       review.
 18  3140                 Thank you for your time.  We would be
 19       pleased to respond to questions.
 20  3141                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 21  3142                 Commissioner Wylie.
 22  3143                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Welcome,
 23       Ms Brand and gentlemen.
 24  3144                 In your written intervention you
 25       actually had five matters.  The first one was on what


  1       you call the conditionality of the promises made.
  2  3145                 Has that concern evaporated now?
  3  3146                 MR. BUCHANAN:  Largely.  It was
  4       because of the uncertainty of the Toronto situation at
  5       the time it was written, and that is now certain.
  6  3147                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I am not sure I
  7       understand.  Your concern, I thought, was that they
  8       should not be allowed to make commitments that are
  9       different from those they would have made but four.
 10  3148                 Has that concern disappeared?
 11  3149                 MR. BUCHANAN:  I think you have had
 12       an ample discussion with them.
 13  3150                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Fine.
 14  3151                 With regard to the incrementality of
 15       the benefits, et cetera, when you say that it would be
 16       a mistake to allow the money to be expended in a matter
 17       that would result in less money spent on drama than
 18       CKVU under previous ownership would have spent, you
 19       would consider it unacceptable if more money was spent
 20       that was incremental spending but not necessarily all
 21       on drama?
 22  3152                 I understand your interest, of
 23       course, as a group, as the Guild, is to this type of
 24       production.  You are aware that there are other
 25       categories of priority programming as well.


  1  3153                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  You are absolutely
  2       correct.  Drama is something that the Guild is keenly
  3       interested in and keenly concerned about and that I
  4       think we should all be concerned about.  I think there
  5       is a need and a desire out there in the community to
  6       see more Canadian drama.
  7  3154                 We do understand that priority
  8       programming does not just include drama.  We would
  9       certainly love to see the money that was committed some
 10       months ago towards priority programming, because that
 11       is money that goes into the hands of the creative
 12       community, a part of which we represent.
 13  3155                 We represent primarily people that
 14       work in the dramatic world, but not only.  It is that
 15       money that we want to see, as a commitment that they
 16       have made, ending up in the hands of creators.  It is
 17       certainly the creators that ultimately are required to
 18       make the programming that helps all of these station
 19       groups continue to operate.
 20  3156                 MR. BUCHANAN:  The promise is
 21       $7 million was only in two categories.  It was not
 22       across all priority programming.  There were only two:
 23       2B, long form docs and this one.
 24  3157                 The seven-year financials that they
 25       filed for CKVU show zero for long form docs all the way


  1       across the seven years.  Our question is:  There can
  2       only be one category that it is going into.  Where is
  3       it?  Why is this number so much lower than the number
  4       that was filed at the time of the hearing?
  5  3158                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I didn't quite
  6       understand exactly where you were coming from when you
  7       said they must do eight hours of priority programming
  8       in City.
  9  3159                 You go beyond your written
 10       intervention here in explaining why.
 11  3160                 You also applaud the brand that CHUM
 12       has been able to establish in the market, not all of
 13       which of course goes to the benefit of independent
 14       producers.
 15  3161                 I know Mr. Buchanan was here.  You
 16       are not impressed by the argument that they want to
 17       leave some peak time for other programming that is
 18       exactly or is partly their brand but does not qualify
 19       as priority programming as defined.  That is why they
 20       should remain at lower than eight hours, or should be
 21       allowed to remain at lower than eight hours.
 22  3162                 You are not impressed by that
 23       argument, considering that you applaud the brand, and
 24       they make the argument that the brand is partly by
 25       programming that would be more difficult to schedule if


  1       they had to do eight hours of priority programming as
  2       defined by the Commission.
  3  3163                 MR. BUCHANAN:  The priority
  4       programming, the magazine programming that qualifies,
  5       is all about Canadian artists.  It is two-thirds
  6       Canada.  It is promoting what you suggested be done. 
  7       The other stuff doesn't qualify.
  8  3164                 They could make it qualify by moving
  9       it to a place more than 150 kilometres away, but you
 10       could do that with lots of other kinds of programming,
 11       as well.  It simply doesn't qualify.
 12  3165                 I am not sure how you have a halfway
 13       house for City or for CHUM that says maybe there is
 14       stuff that is nearer or closer, or it almost fits, or
 15       it doesn't, or maybe you could shrink the distance. 
 16       Maybe you could have some other reason why something
 17       might qualify.  It doesn't fit.
 18  3166                 If the question is should they not
 19       have to go to eight hours because they do these other
 20       things, the answer is no, that isn't an answer for it. 
 21       They should go to eight hours.  If they want to find a
 22       way to make those work, either by including more
 23       Canadian portions of it to get it up to the two-thirds
 24       or by moving it 150 kilometres away so it works for
 25       your industrial part of that policy, there are other


  1       ways to do that.
  2  3167                 To suggest that it might find a way
  3       to squeak in when it doesn't is not a good way to go
  4       about it.
  5  3168                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now that you
  6       live in Toronto, Mr. Buchanan, you don't think you
  7       could have Fashion Television done in Ottawa?
  8  3169                 MR. BUCHANAN:  I am sure they could
  9       find a way to do that.  That would still allow them to
 10       do 75 per cent with other people and 25 per cent with
 11       themselves, if they wanted to do 25 per cent and do the
 12       four half-hours out of Ottawa.
 13  3170                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  That brings me
 14       to my last question.
 15  3171                 When you addressed the 75 per cent,
 16       Mr. Goluboff, in particular, is it that you are
 17       concerned about the ownership of a production company
 18       such as Sleeping Giant or that you are concerned about
 19       CHUM doing too much in-house as opposed to farming it
 20       out to independent producers?  Or is it both?
 21  3172                 The 75 per cent has usually been
 22       addressed within the context of the vertical
 23       integration of broadcasters with independent companies. 
 24       It could also address the production in-house by
 25       broadcasters.


  1  3173                 Which is it?  Or is it both?
  2  3174                 You have read their comments about
  3       Sleeping Giant and the minimal use that they propose to
  4       make of it.  Would the concern still remain because you
  5       wouldn't want them to be producing more in-house?
  6  3175                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  It's two things.
  7  3176                 First, the 75 per cent figure is not
  8       our figure.  It is a figure that I believe came out of
  9       the Commission and was designed, if I am not mistaken,
 10       for the CTV and the Global renewals of a year or so,
 11       whenever they were renewed last year.
 12  3177                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Would you agree
 13       with me, though, that it was in the context of vertical
 14       integration of production companies more than a concern
 15       of in-house production?
 16  3178                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  I know Pamela wants to
 17       comment.
 18  3179                 MS BRAND:  I think it was both.  In
 19       CanWest and Global's case certainly it was vertical
 20       integration.  Also, it is a requirement of the
 21       Broadcasting Act that a certain amount of priority
 22       programming be done by independent producers.
 23  3180                 Also, the arguments that we use for
 24       CanWest and Global apply equally to CHUM: the diversity
 25       of voices, the choices, the strengthening of the


  1       broadcasting system.
  2  3181                 So to answer your question, it is
  3       both.
  4  3182                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Goluboff,
  5       did you have anything more to add?
  6  3183                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  No; that's fine.
  7  3184                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Even with the
  8       answer for Sleeping Giant your concern remains for the
  9       reasons that were expressed.
 10  3185                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  Yes.
 11  3186                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Those are my
 12       questions.  Thank you very much.
 13  3187                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 14       Grauer.
 15  3188                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  The issue on
 16       reporting that we have with CTV and Global -- which I
 17       don't think we have moved too far forward in terms of
 18       really understanding what they are doing with
 19       independent production that we discussed -- do you
 20       think it would be useful to have input and discussion
 21       between parties like yourselves, the independent
 22       producers, to really develop the criteria for the
 23       reporting so that we know what you want to be able to
 24       look at on an annual basis, and the broadcasters know
 25       what is going to be expected of them?  Then we can also


  1       maybe take a look at that.
  2  3189                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  Certainly we would
  3       love to be a part of that process and that dialogue. 
  4       If it is felt that we could be helpful and have
  5       something valuable to add, we would happily participate
  6       in that.
  7  3190                 Certainly the independent producing
  8       community, who will speak next, I guess, will comment
  9       on that.
 10  3191                 We will be willing, and we find it
 11       desirable to have our input heard at a round table. 
 12       That is, I think, valuable to all of us:  working
 13       together to make something work for broadcasters, for
 14       independent producers and obviously for the creative
 15       community that I am representing.
 16  3192                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  It seems to me
 17       that the big challenge we have is really understanding
 18       how we are going to move forward with drama and what
 19       are the funding challenges for you, for the
 20       broadcasters.
 21  3193                 MR. BUCHANAN:  It would be very
 22       helpful.  We didn't think the original numbers in the
 23       CKVU application were the right numbers, because they
 24       were what we thought would be lower than the previous
 25       owner's three-year rolling average.  That never came


  1       up, so we don't know what number we are shooting at.
  2  3194                 Why this number can come out lower,
  3       we don't understand.
  4  3195                 So the answer is yes, we would love
  5       to be part of it.
  6  3196                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  My discussion
  7       is more general than specific at this point, because to
  8       what extent numbers are confidential or not needs to be
  9       determined.
 10  3197                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  The world of drama is
 11       clearly the most challenging issue the entire film and
 12       television industry has in this country; to deal with
 13       how do we get Canadian drama into the homes and on the
 14       screens of this country.
 15  3198                 We are all players in it.  Everybody
 16       that I represent is a player.  The broadcasters are
 17       certainly key to this, and the independent production
 18       community is key to it.
 19  3199                 If there is any opportunity for us to
 20       work together to find -- and that mechanism is
 21       happening.
 22  3200                 It is still something we have all
 23       struggled with for years and years, and to no great
 24       success -- to improved success, but we have a huge way
 25       to go certainly to convince the Canadian public that: 


  1       (1) there is Canadian drama out there worth watching;
  2       and (2) that it is available to them.  And it is
  3       available in limited degrees.
  4  3201                 We talked about the eight hours
  5       earlier, why those things are important to us, knowing
  6       that it is not just about drama; that priority
  7       programming is broader than drama.
  8  3202                 Finding solutions to the problem that
  9       seems to be endless around the world of drama in this
 10       country is the most challenging task all of us have
 11       over the next 20 years:  How do we get drama available
 12       to Canadians and have them want to watch it?
 13  3203                 You as a commission can impose all
 14       kinds of guidelines on the broadcasters.  It does not
 15       mean people are going to tune in to watch Canadian
 16       drama.  It is a much broader bigger issue, and there
 17       are a lot of players that are keenly interested in
 18       addressing it, us being one.
 19  3204                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  We won't solve
 20       it here tonight, but we have to keep working at it.
 21  3205                 Thank you.
 22  3206                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  Thank you.
 23  3207                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought you were
 24       actually going to give us the answer, Mr. Goluboff.
 25  3208                 MR. GOLUBOFF:  I am not that hungry,


  1       but I know that others are.  If you wish for some other
  2       answers, we just want to be part of the dialogue in
  3       finding answers to the problems.  I don't have all the
  4       answers, clearly.
  5  3209                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  6       much.             
  7  3210                 Counsel has a question, I believe.
  8  3211                 MR. HOWARD:  One fast question.
  9  3212                 With regard to City moving to eight
 10       hours and the 75 per cent from independent producers,
 11       you have asked that those be requirements.  Are you
 12       asking that they be by condition of licence?  Is that
 13       the suggestion?
 14  3213                 MR. BUCHANAN:  That was the
 15       suggestion.
 16  3214                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 17  3215                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 18  3216                 We will now adjourn until 7:00 p.m.
 19       --- Upon recessing at 1800 / Suspension à 1800
 20       --- Upon resuming on at 1900 / Reprend à 1900
 21  3217                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Order, please.  À
 22       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
 23  3218                 Mr. Secretary.
 24  3219                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  3220                 The next appearing intervenor will be


  1       the Canadian Film and TV Production Association.
  2       Appearing for the Association is Elizabeth McDonald and
  3       Julia Keatley.
  4  3221                 You have ten minutes to make your
  5       presentation.
  7  3222                 MS McDONALD:  Thank you.
  8  3223                 Mr. Chairman and Members of the
  9       Commission, my name is Elizabeth McDonald, and I am the
 10       President and CEO of the Canadian Film and Television
 11       Production Association.
 12  3224                 With me today is Julia Keatley, who
 13       is Chair of our Board of Directors.  Julia is the
 14       executive producer of Keatley Films in Vancouver, the
 15       producer of "Cold Squad".  She is also one of two CFTPA
 16       representatives on the Board of Directors of the
 17       Canadian Television Fund.
 18  3225                 The CFTPA represents over 400
 19       companies that finance, produce, distribute and market
 20       television programs, feature films and multi-media
 21       products in English.  Our members are present in every
 22       region of Canada, from coast to coast to coast.  In an
 23       ever-consolidating media world, independent creators
 24       have the role of ensuring diversity to the Canadian
 25       broadcasting system.


  1  3226                 Our members obtain the rights from
  2       authors and others with stories to tell, employ writers
  3       to prepare screenplays, hire directors, actors and
  4       crafts people to make the stories into programs and
  5       conduct all the business dealings to finance the
  6       provision of these stories to Canadian and sometimes
  7       foreign audiences.  As such, we have a vital interest
  8       in the terms and conditions governing the program
  9       practices of our major customers -- Canada's
 10       television, pay and specialty broadcasters.
 11  3227                 I would like to note for the record
 12       that while CHUM is a member of the CFTPA, consistent
 13       with the Association's bylaws and conflict of interest
 14       guidelines, no person from CHUM or any production
 15       company affiliated with a broadcaster had any
 16       involvement in the framing of our position on these
 17       applications.
 18  3228                 The group renewal process gives the
 19       public and interested parties the opportunity to both
 20       look back at the performance of a broadcaster and to
 21       have input to what they will do in the next licence
 22       term.  It provides us with an opportunity to look at
 23       the whole of a licensee's activities and to comment on
 24       the appropriateness of their proposed contributions to
 25       Canadian programming.


  1  3229                 Our review of the past performance of
  2       the CHUM television stations and our assessment of this
  3       broadcaster's commitments for the upcoming licence term
  4       have led to our endorsement of a seven-year renewal. 
  5       Since the inception of Citytv, in September 1972, CHUM
  6       has carved a unique niche for itself.
  7  3230                 Intensely local, with a strong focus
  8       on news, movies and music, CHUM's conventional
  9       television stations provide a distinct alternative to
 10       the offerings of the other station groups.  CHUM has
 11       created a vibrant, streetfront style that is accessible
 12       and participatory.  It television stations are widely
 13       recognized for their efforts to promote various
 14       communities of interest and for presenting a true
 15       reflection of cultural diversity.
 16  3231                 Its emphasis on movies, long-form
 17       drama and drama series, as well as documentaries, has
 18       made it a strong supporter of the Canadian independent
 19       production community, particularly first-time
 20       filmmakers.  CHUM's contribution consists of financial
 21       support and exhibit commitments, as well as essential
 22       script and concept development funding.  One of the
 23       most outstanding contributions that CHUM makes to the
 24       system is that it provides creative support without
 25       taking creative control.


  1  3232                 We also applaud CHUM's continued
  2       emphasis on creating a Canadian star system through
  3       strong promotional efforts.
  4  3233                 We would like to point out that
  5       CHUM's distinct programming format means that its
  6       television stations, unlike most other Canadian
  7       services, are not beholden to U.S. network schedules. 
  8       It is not caught up in the frenzy of simultaneous
  9       substitution and bidding wars for American sitcoms and
 10       drama series.
 11  3234                 Our written intervention has raised a
 12       couple of issues that we would like to discuss today,
 13       including access to CHUM's shelf space for independent
 14       producers, terms of trade, and commitments to regional
 15       independent production.
 16  3235                 Julia.
 17  3236                 MS KEATLEY:  Before discussing our
 18       recommendations on CHUM's group renewal applications,
 19       it would be remiss of me as a Vancouver producer not to
 20       acknowledge the outstanding contribution that CHUM has
 21       made to our local independent production community in
 22       Vancouver.  The comments put forward in the
 23       Association's intervention are meant to ensure that the
 24       positive relationship that CHUM has developed with
 25       Canada's independent producers in British Columbia and


  1       across Canada continues to flourish over the next seven
  2       years.
  3  3237                 An important matter to our membership
  4       is the Association's recommendation that at least 75
  5       per cent of the priority programming broadcast each
  6       year on CHUM's conventional television stations be
  7       obtained from non-affiliated independent producers. 
  8       Given the excellent and mutually beneficial
  9       relationship that CHUM has enjoyed with the independent
 10       community over the past several years, we were frankly
 11       a little puzzled by CHUM's reluctance to agree to such
 12       a commitment.
 13  3238                 The Broadcasting Act has signalled
 14       the importance of independent production to the
 15       Canadian broadcasting system.  Our point in making this
 16       recommendation, which has been raised in the renewals
 17       of CanWest, CTV and Craig, is to ensure fair access and
 18       program diversity.
 19  3239                 Given CHUM's stated objective of
 20       continuing to create a substantial body of programming
 21       in-house that can be packaged and marketed around the
 22       world, we need this reassurance.
 23  3240                 Canadian broadcasters are producers'
 24       principal market.  They are the key to accessing
 25       funding support and tax credits.  Clear programming


  1       commitments are essential for the stability of the
  2       Canadian production industry.
  3  3241                 I will turn now to an increasingly
  4       important issue for us:  providing a level and
  5       predictable playing field when producers are
  6       negotiating with broadcasters.
  7  3242                 The licence fee that a broadcaster
  8       brings to a production is a key piece of the production
  9       financing arrangements.  Without a licence agreement,
 10       the producer cannot access tax credits, the CTV, or
 11       convince a distributor to pay an advance.
 12  3243                 For producers to become successful,
 13       they must be fully able to exploit their copyrights and
 14       catalogue.  Absent such control, they are really only
 15       line producers and cannot build the kinds of businesses
 16       able to invest in new productions.
 17  3244                 We have asked the Commission to
 18       endorse our idea of developing Terms of Trade
 19       agreements between the producer association and
 20       individual broadcast ownership groups.  We welcome
 21       CHUM's interest in entering into these important
 22       negotiations and ask the Commission to note CHUM's
 23       commitment in the decision resulting from this hearing.
 24  3245                 Finally, CFTPA was pleased to note
 25       yesterday CHUM's agreement to broadcast totally


  1       separate and distinct priority programming on City and
  2       its Ontario NewNet stations.
  3  3246                 MS McDONALD:  The last time we
  4       appeared before you, it was Julia who raised the issue
  5       of regional independent production.  Today it is my
  6       turn to address this issue.
  7  3247                 The commitments made by local
  8       stations are very important to independent producers in
  9       that region.  CHUM, which has a strong commitment to
 10       local reflection, as well as having a wider presence in
 11       the Canadian broadcasting system and internationally,
 12       is in a position to ensure that stories based in the
 13       regions get a wider audience.
 14  3248                 Our intervention notes that CHUM has
 15       already demonstrated its clear commitment to regional
 16       production.  Where it has made precise dollar
 17       commitments (British Columbia and southern Ontario), it
 18       has fully respected its obligations to offer financial
 19       support to regional production.
 20  3249                 We suggest that a commitment to
 21       regional independent production should be an ongoing
 22       aspect of this broadcaster's programming strategy.
 23  3250                 We note that CHUM operates stations
 24       in markets such as Victoria, Barrie, London and
 25       Windsor.  These are cities that larger station groups


  1       have abandoned as not being profitable.  Their program
  2       plans for these stations include distinct regional
  3       expression.  It is our contention that producers who
  4       reside in these communities are in a position to help
  5       CHUM to meet its goals.
  6  3251                 CHUM's financial projections indicate
  7       an allocation of $1.3 million for regionally produced
  8       priority programming over seven years.  This proposed
  9       expenditure should be made a condition of licence.  In
 10       addition, we ask the CRTC to explore with CHUM specific
 11       regional production commitments for each of its
 12       conventional television stations.
 13  3252                 These can be framed as commitments to
 14       a specific minimum number of documentary and drama
 15       programs to be acquired from independent producers over
 16       the licence term.
 17  3253                 Yesterday the Commission questioned
 18       the applicant about its willingness to report annually
 19       on its activity levels with independent producers.  We
 20       would hope that the CRTC would include such a
 21       requirement in its licensing decision.  Such a
 22       requirement would be consistent with the renewal
 23       decisions of CanWest and CTV and will ensure a
 24       transparent record of the relationship between
 25       broadcasters and producers.


  1  3254                 CFTPA has asked the Commission to
  2       make CHUM's programming commitments with regard to
  3       access to shelf space, priority programming, its use of
  4       regional independent production, its support for script
  5       and concept development, its commitment to broadcast
  6       100 hours per year of Canadian long-form drama
  7       programming on each of City and CKVU, and annual
  8       reporting on its activities with independent producers
  9       "conditions of licence".
 10  3255                 We do so to ensure that throughout a
 11       seven-year licence term, the ability of the system to
 12       exhibit quality Canadian programming is not compromised
 13       by changing corporate strategies and to ensure that
 14       Canadian viewers continue to have access to a wide
 15       range of diverse Canadian programming.
 16  3256                 Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission,
 17       thank you for your attention today, and we would be
 18       pleased to answer any questions you may have.
 19  3257                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 20  3258                 Commissioner Grauer.
 21  3259                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you.
 22  3260                 Good evening, ladies.  I will try to
 23       be relatively brief, because I know we have a lot of
 24       territory to cover.
 25  3261                 One thing I would like to ask you to


  1       elaborate on is:
  2                              "Canadian broadcasters are
  3                              producers' principal market. 
  4                              They are the key to accessing
  5                              funding support and tax
  6                              credits."
  7  3262                 One of the things we touched on
  8       briefly yesterday with CHUM was their extensive use of
  9       what are called industrial productions which are
 10       sourced from different parts of the country.
 11  3263                 It is important that we be really
 12       constructive moving forward, because all of us have a
 13       lot of balls in the air.  I know that industrial
 14       producers are members of your Association, but they
 15       would not fall into this category of funding support,
 16       would they?
 17  3264                 MS McDONALD:  I will start off.
 18  3265                 Yes, they will still require a
 19       licence fee.  The licence fee level would be lower,
 20       generally.  You also need a Canadian broadcaster to
 21       trigger the Canadian federal and some provincial
 22       Canadian oriented or tax credit systems that support
 23       indigenous programming.
 24  3266                 Julia, do you want to add something?
 25  3267                 MS KEATLEY:  Yes.  In terms of


  1       service production, it tends to be what we qualify as
  2       six out of seven Cancon.  I think one of the
  3       interesting things at the CFTPA is we have come to
  4       understand that this really is part of the overall
  5       picture of production within the country, and obviously
  6       some of our members do that.
  7  3268                 As someone who sits on the board of
  8       the Canadian Television Fund and having just gone
  9       through the most recent round of funding decisions that
 10       have been announced, there obviously isn't enough
 11       specific money in that system to only support ten out
 12       of ten productions.  So we obviously think that the six
 13       and seven are absolutely part of the mix.
 14  3269                 MS McDONALD:  In fact, we are just
 15       completing a study on the impact of industrial
 16       programming, and that will be available at the end of
 17       the month as part of the Cancon review.  We will make
 18       it public.
 19  3270                 It will be a companion piece to the
 20       study we did on the Canadian Television Fund.
 21  3271                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I think the
 22       other issue is the issue of rights ownership and where
 23       that fits into the whole piece.
 24  3272                 Will your study be dealing with that,
 25       as well?


  1  3273                 MS McDONALD:  We will update our
  2       study done last year on the Canadian Television Fund
  3       and its economic impact, which I think covered about
  4       one-third of the productions.
  5  3274                 Then there is the other mix, which is
  6       the industrial programming, which is the six, even up
  7       to nine out of ten programming.  And then there is the
  8       service production where a Canadian does not own the
  9       rights and just provides a service to a foreign entity.
 10  3275                 MS KEATLEY:  Just so you also
 11       understand, this is one of the issues in terms of
 12       rights, so obviously rights and the exploitation of
 13       those rights are extremely important to producers.  It
 14       is really how we further our revenue to support us
 15       through times when we are not in production and not
 16       just receiving producer fees.
 17  3276                 This is one of the reasons why we ask
 18       for terms of trade.  It is one of the things that
 19       governs that protocol of that relationship, so that
 20       when you are negotiating that with a broadcaster who
 21       has a lot of control in the situation over a lot of
 22       other financing matters you have some ability to
 23       negotiate and keep some rights.
 24  3277                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  As you probably
 25       know, we didn't have much of a discussion on the issue


  1       of regional commitments with respect to programming. 
  2       We talked about it extensively with both CTV and
  3       Global, and we decided at licence renewal for those two
  4       groups that we were not going to impose quotas.
  5  3278                 I don't know at this point, going
  6       forward with CHUM -- I was very comfortable raising the
  7       issue of quotas with them.  We talked about it briefly. 
  8       With respect to the reporting, I wonder if it wouldn't
  9       be helpful, as I said to the Directors Guild, that
 10       maybe if we are asking all the groups to report on some
 11       of the criteria that you would view as important, to be
 12       able to measure on a year by year basis.
 13  3279                 MS McDONALD:  We would certainly
 14       welcome it.  I think most people are familiar with our
 15       annual profile, and we started the collection of data
 16       across the country.  It is an extremely painful process
 17       that we go through annually.
 18  3280                 Any opportunity to add to that body
 19       of data allows people to understand what the impact of
 20       their decisions is.
 21  3281                 I think our concern, for example,
 22       with regional programming is that we are seeing shifts
 23       across the country.  We have some concern.  There is a
 24       tremendously effective production community in the
 25       prairies, but I think from what we have at least seen


  1       on the CTF Telefilm side in the decisions have just
  2       come out, that is an area that is going to come out
  3       reporting that it has less productions triggered.
  4  3282                 It is going to be important to
  5       understand what.  I think the reason that we raised the
  6       issue of regional independent production is there is a
  7       very rich community which is starting to face
  8       considerable challenges, because there is no push to
  9       license in that region.
 10  3283                 How broadcasters are encouraged to
 11       look at those producers in an equitable fashion and
 12       give them an opportunity to tell their stories is going
 13       to become an issue.
 14  3284                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  If we could
 15       work together with your organization and others to
 16       develop the criteria, of course there are going to be
 17       confidentiality and competitive issues with the
 18       broadcasters.  Committing to an open process that can
 19       measure what is happening year in and year out is
 20       perhaps easier on everybody than imposing quotas and
 21       going to a place that I think nobody really wants to
 22       go.
 23  3285                 MS McDONALD:  We would absolutely
 24       welcome the opportunity to do that.  I am sure there
 25       are other parties, including the Canadian Television


  1       Fund and probably Telefilm Canada -- all of us would
  2       benefit and in doing it in a way that would protect
  3       corporate strategies and corporate confidentiality but
  4       that allows us on an annual basis to take a look at the
  5       system before you are coming back in seven years, and
  6       nothing can be done and excellent creators are lost to
  7       the system.
  8  3286                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  And maybe
  9       reducing some of those regional tensions that we all
 10       live with.
 11  3287                 MS McDONALD:  Absolutely.
 12  3288                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I don't think
 13       there is anything else.  Thank you very much.
 14  3289                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 15  3290                 Commissioner Langford.
 16  3291                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I hope this
 17       will be a quick question, and I don't want to seem to
 18       be advocating for CHUM.  It might give Mr. Miller a 
 19       heart attack, even if I were.
 20  3292                 There is a very fundamental part of
 21       your recommendations here today that I think might be
 22       troublesome, from what we heard today and yesterday
 23       from CHUM.
 24  3293                 You recommend that they buy into this
 25       75 per cent independent production figure that people


  1       have used and felt bound by, and then you add to that
  2       regional production.  Leave the regional for now,
  3       because that it seems to me to be more in its nascence.
  4  3294                 If I heard CHUM correctly, they might
  5       have a problem with this kind of 75 per cent
  6       commitment, because they said to us on a number of
  7       occasions, I think, that independent producers were
  8       having a terrible time getting funding; that they would
  9       declare themselves good for the licence fee, approve
 10       the project, put in the applications and they would
 11       just come up flat.  So where does that leave them?
 12  3295                 If they want to be sure of having
 13       product, don't they have to have the leeway to make it
 14       themselves if that is what is happening to them?
 15  3296                 MS McDONALD:  I don't think it is a
 16       black and white question of:  If you can't get money
 17       from the Canadian Television Fund, you can't make
 18       Canadian programming.  There are various levels of
 19       production.
 20  3297                 First of all, to be clear, we are
 21       talking about eight hours of priority programming per
 22       week; 75 per cent of that represents six hours in a
 23       total seven-day week for a broadcaster.
 24  3298                 The second part of it is that some
 25       productions are funded through the Canadian Television


  1       Fund and Telefilm.  Many productions are not and can be
  2       done with lower licence fees using other financing
  3       arrangements.  That is one possible way of doing it.
  4  3299                 But there is other programming that
  5       could meet their commitments that is not at the ten out
  6       of ten level.
  7  3300                 Third, the CFTPA has been quite
  8       active -- and you can look on our Web site -- making
  9       our points quite clear to the CTF and to Telefilm or
 10       the CTF to programs that some of the inequities, that
 11       there is a crisis now in how the decisions are made.
 12  3301                 We do that believing that all
 13       broadcasters should be able to benefit from that
 14       program in some way and that it is time to not look at
 15       the distinctly Canadian side but how the decisions are
 16       made, to ensure it be more equitable.
 17  3302                 In fact, we have been sort of the
 18       leading voices on doing that, and the Fund is listening
 19       to us.
 20  3303                 I am sure, actually, with some of the
 21       wonderful minds at CHUM, including Paul Gratton, that
 22       we will be able to redefine that fund more equitably
 23       across the system.
 24  3304                 All Canadian programming will never
 25       be ten out of ten or twelve out of ten, but there is a


  1       wide range between six out of ten and nine out of ten
  2       which is affordable and which independent producers can
  3       get the financing for.
  4  3305                 I think maybe Julia, who actually has
  5       to do that work, may want to add to my answer.
  6  3306                 MS KEATLEY:  I think you said it very
  7       well.
  8  3307                 To further highlight the whole range
  9       of programming, that is one of the reasons why we
 10       really do continue to support that.  But also in terms
 11       of what happened, for instance, in this year's funding
 12       round, one of the things as producers and a producer
 13       association that we are doing is looking at the wide
 14       variety of specialty channels that have been licensed
 15       by the CRTC with various commitments and trying to find
 16       a way within a limited funding pool for all kinds of
 17       broadcasters, regardless of their audience reach, and
 18       trying to find different ways of making that system
 19       more equitable and not just for the larger conventional
 20       broadcasters.
 21  3308                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It sounds
 22       like there just isn't enough money.  As I say, I am not
 23       going to make their case for them.  Maybe they will
 24       have something to say in reply.
 25  3309                 Thank you very much.


  1  3310                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  2  3311                 Counsel?
  3  3312                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
  4  3313                 You said in paragraph 26 of the
  5       original intervention -- and you don't have to look at
  6       it -- that you wish the Commission to require City to
  7       go to eight hours of priority programming.
  8  3314                 Are you still asking for that?
  9  3315                 MS McDONALD:  Yes.
 10  3316                 MR. HOWARD:  Thank you.
 11  3317                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 12  3318                 Thank you very much, ladies.
 13  3319                 Mr. Secretary.
 14  3320                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 15  3321                 The next appearing intervenor will be
 16       the teleconference.  It is No. 26 on the agenda.  We
 17       will hear from Ms Loretta Todd.
 18  3322                 Can you hear me, Ms Todd?
 19       --- Pause
 20  3323                 MR. LEBEL:  Are you there, Ms Todd?
 21  3324                 MS TODD:  Yes, I am.
 22  3325                 MR. LEBEL:  You have ten minutes to
 23       make your presentation.
 24  3326                 MS TODD:  This is very short.
 25  3327                 I would first like to thank Chairman


  1       Dalfen for the opportunity to speak in this strange way
  2       over the phone to you.
  3  3328                 As an independent aboriginal
  4       producer, there are certain expectations I have when
  5       dealing with broadcasters.  I would even call them
  6       values.  They include accessibility, professionalism,
  7       creative vision and intelligence with respect to
  8       programming and audiences.
  9  3329                 CHUM in Toronto and CKVU in Vancouver
 10       encompass all these and more.  They are also fun --
 11  3330                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me.  I will
 12       have to ask you to start again.  In order to hear you,
 13       we are going to have to use the earphones, I believe,
 14       because you are not coming in over the public address
 15       system.
 16  3331                 If you don't mind starting again,
 17       that would work better.
 18       --- Pause
 19  3332                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can our technicians
 20       at the back assist in any way?
 21  3333                 We have lost our intervenor.
 22       --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques
 23  3334                 MR. LEBEL:  Mr. Chairman, I
 24       understand it is a problem with her phone.  So we will
 25       hear from somebody else, and we will get back to her


  1       after she gets a new phone.
  2  3335                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  3  3336                 Could you call the next intervenor,
  4       please.
  5  3337                 MR. LEBEL:  The next appearing
  6       intervenor will be Communications and Diversity
  7       Network, Messrs. Rubin Friedman and Lionel Lumb.
  8  3338                 You have ten minutes to make your
  9       presentation.
 11  3339                 MR. RASALINGAM:  Good evening,
 12       Commissioners.  My name is Raj Rasalingam.  I am the
 13       President of the Pearson-Shoyama Institute in Ottawa
 14       and a member of the Communications and Diversity
 15       Network.
 16  3340                 The Communications and Diversity
 17       Network aims to modernize the portrayal of ethnic and
 18       racial minorities and aboriginal peoples in mainstream
 19       programming so that the multicultural and multiracial
 20       reality of Canada is reflected in Canadian
 21       broadcasting.
 22  3341                 In pursuit of its mission, the CDN
 23       shares expertise, resources and models of good practice
 24       in an effort to ensure that television responds to the
 25       changing demographics and consumer markets in its


  1       programming and employment policies.
  2  3342                 The CDN endorses and commends the
  3       Commission's policy and approach with respect to
  4       cultural diversity.
  5  3343                 Under the CKVU benefits package the
  6       CDN proposes to commence, with CHUM, the development of
  7       a Canada-wide cultural diversity data bank of high
  8       quality experts on a broad range of subjects that are
  9       covered by the news media on a regular basis.  This
 10       data bank will focus on ensuring a diversity of
 11       ethno-racial backgrounds, a diversity of fields of
 12       expertise and a diversity of regions across Canada.
 13  3344                 The people identified will also be
 14       appropriate for a diversity of settings, ranging from
 15       participants in regular talk shows to experts in more
 16       obscure but important fields.
 17  3345                 The objects of this project are:
 18  3346                 (1) to better link the enormous
 19       richness of racial and minority and aboriginal
 20       expertise with the news media and hence with Canadian
 21       society at large;
 22  3347                 (2) to contribute to efforts by
 23       broadcasters to ensure that they better reflect the
 24       diversity of the country; and
 25  3348                 (3) to provide media with an easily


  1       accessible tool that will help better reflection of
  2       Canadian diversity.
  3  3349                 On my right is Professor Lionel Lumb,
  4       who is also a member of the Communications and
  5       Diversity Network and is also a Professor of
  6       Communications at Carleton University.
  7  3350                 MR. LUMB:  A professor of journalism. 
  8       My communications colleagues would be shocked that I
  9       had such academic pretensions.
 10  3351                 Commissioners, thank you for this
 11       opportunity to speak here.
 12  3352                 If I may start in a personal fashion
 13       -- and I am encouraged to do that because I heard Moses
 14       Znaimer do that this morning -- I came to this country
 15       in 1973 from Britain where I had worked for BBC
 16       Television News.  At the time of my departure, there
 17       was not a single woman journalist working in the
 18       national newsroom of the BBC.  There were just a few
 19       women secretaries -- typists really -- and a couple of
 20       administrative people.  When I left for Canada, that
 21       newsroom also lost its only journalist member of a
 22       visible minority.
 23  3353                 In Canada, I came to CBC Television
 24       News and I found more women on staff, though none in a
 25       senior position.  But downtown there was a newsroom


  1       which, 29 years ago, would have been extraordinary
  2       anywhere in the industry, anywhere in the world, and it
  3       is still a leader today in its hiring practices.
  4  3354                 Citytv might be termed the "godmother
  5       of diversity" -- perhaps I should say the "godfather"
  6       because of Moses' presence here today.  They invented
  7       diversity back in 1972.
  8  3355                 While I was at the CBC it tried to
  9       create a more level playing field for women from the
 10       late 1970s on but did not discover diversity until the
 11       mid-1980s.  Then came CTV and Global.  Now most
 12       television newsrooms across the country have started to
 13       change, and the visible success of women and
 14       minorities, when given the chance, has encouraged
 15       others to follow.
 16  3356                 I can tell you that this year and
 17       last year, but not the years before, seven out of every
 18       ten journalism students I teach at Carleton University
 19       here in Ottawa these days is a woman, and that in each
 20       class of about 25 students one can find about three
 21       visible minority students.
 22  3357                 That is a major increase from 1991
 23       when I started at Carleton.
 24  3358                 There has also been a lot of
 25       improvement in who is seen and whose views are heard on


  1       television news and current affairs programs.  Most
  2       organizations have made serious efforts to expand their
  3       rolodexes of commentators, experts and other authority
  4       figures to include more minorities.
  5  3359                 You have just heard Raj talk about a
  6       new directory that might help that process even more.
  7  3360                 It could be said that the CRTC, you
  8       guys, as a regulatory body, didn't discover the need
  9       for diversity until just a couple of years ago.  Since
 10       then you have tried hard to encourage change, and the
 11       recent licence renewals or awards that stipulated
 12       increasing diversity as a condition of licence will
 13       certainly help this cause, whose time has surely come.
 14  3361                 In fact, it's long overdue because
 15       Canada's population mix has obviously changed far
 16       faster than the broadcast industry in general.
 17  3362                 The CRTC's recent urging of the
 18       industry to obtain baseline research data so that the
 19       progress of diversity in programs can be measured is a
 20       terrific move in the right direction.  That pioneer of
 21       diversity, Citytv, now expanded into CHUM-TV, has
 22       continued to lead the way.  I know it was the first
 23       broadcast group to set down where it stood on the
 24       issue, producing back in November 2000 an important
 25       document called "Cultural Diversity Best Practices",


  1       which I see is incorporated today in their new
  2       "Cultural Diversity Action Plan" -- available only on
  3       Friday.  So I haven't had a chance to study it yet.
  4  3363                 That earlier document -- and its
  5       principles are all here -- gives CHUM managers
  6       directions and support to improve diversity in all
  7       aspects of their operations.  Annual performance
  8       reviews for managers are designed to ensure that the
  9       Best Practices are indeed carried out.
 10  3364                 These efforts, of course, are worthy
 11       of high praise and CHUM is to be complimented.
 12  3365                 What is not absolutely clear is what
 13       the anticipated improvements are to be measured again
 14       or, indeed, how those measurements might be taken.  I
 15       suppose some form of internal baseline data is being
 16       gathered, otherwise annual reviews of managers might
 17       not carry a sufficient degree of significance.
 18  3366                 Let's take an example.
 19  3367                 Citytv could probably easily provide
 20       figures for the cultural mix of its newsrooms, in both
 21       its on-air people and those behind the scenes.  That
 22       mix of cultures, attitudes and viewpoints makes Citytv
 23       news the vibrant operation it has been from the start.
 24  3368                 Its reporters and crews can tackle
 25       difficult stories, go without fear or hindrance


  1       anywhere in the metropolitan Toronto area because they
  2       are known as a station that is fair to all communities.
  3  3369                 Dwight Drummond, the deputy
  4       assignment editor a few years ago -- and perhaps he
  5       still is -- gave us an example at a conference at
  6       Carleton back in 1995, where during the "Just Desserts"
  7       story, the notorious "Just Desserts" shooting in
  8       Toronto, Citytv was one of the few news organizations
  9       whose reporters could gain access everywhere because
 10       they were so plugged into the community that the
 11       community never saw them as being a potential
 12       threatening kind of media like a lot of other,
 13       especially certain print media, were seen.
 14  3370                 That is an example of what I mean by
 15       being able to go, without fear or hindrance, anywhere
 16       in the metropolitan Toronto area.
 17  3371                 The CHUM group's reach and spirit is
 18       very important to the portrayal of diversity in Canada. 
 19       Back in 1996 I supported Citytv's quest for a licence
 20       to be seen here in Ottawa, because I hoped that its
 21       approach on diversity might rub off on the competition
 22       in Ottawa.  Since then, of course, the group has added
 23       the NewRO to the capital's slate of stations and given
 24       a tremendous boost to the importance of local and
 25       community coverage.


  1  3372                 That kind of competition spurs others
  2       to greater efforts, and wherever such a NewRO, VR or VI
  3       erupts on the market -- and they usually do that; they
  4       usually erupt -- you can be sure it is a wake-up call
  5       on diversity, among other things, local news, community
  6       news, for other television news operations.
  7  3373                 But what about at the corporate level
  8       in CHUM, in senior management, where major policy
  9       decisions are made?  Is there the same mix of different
 10       viewpoints, the same strong wind of fresh ideas?  Is
 11       anyone measuring progress there?
 12  3374                 We heard from Sarah Crawford this
 13       morning about the long-serving CHUM managers, and I
 14       think that is a good thing.  The CBC can't claim to
 15       have people who can stay in the job very long.
 16  3375                 Stuart, that is a private joke.  It
 17       refers to me as well.
 18  3376                 Is that smart, I would have to ask? 
 19       Is it smart that senior management can't change faster? 
 20       If you can change the front end, the look of stations,
 21       you are not really going to achieve anything serious if
 22       you don't change the downward flow from senior
 23       management.
 24  3377                 So I think progress should be faster
 25       there, and there should be a way of measuring it as


  1       well.
  2  3378                 Or take Citytv's commitment to 100
  3       hours of Canadian movies a year.  Again, highly
  4       deserving of praise.  I think that is wonderful.  But
  5       what is the cultural and story mix of those movies?  Is
  6       anyone monitoring whether they represent the Canada of
  7       today?
  8  3379                 Or are these movies, like most
  9       Canadian drama and entertainment on Canadian television
 10       screens, strangely devoid of the cultural mix we see on
 11       our streets, in our shopping malls, our schools and our
 12       work places, indeed in our news programs?
 13  3380                 Also important, what kind of roles do
 14       minorities play in these movies?  Are they leads?  Are
 15       they secondary leads?  Do they just get bit parts?  Are
 16       they writers and producers?  Where do they serve within
 17       the ranks?
 18  3381                 And, of course, how are they
 19       portrayed?  Is there an even mix of portrayal:  good,
 20       bad, in between.
 21  3382                 All of this is definitely not to
 22       single out CHUM.  I am speaking in broader terms. I
 23       hope that is clear.  Indeed, CHUM's managers are
 24       specifically directed to ensure diversity in
 25       programming.  With CHUM's track record and pioneering


  1       efforts on diversity, it probably has the best change
  2       of any TV group to bring Canadian broadcasting in line
  3       with changes in Canadian society.
  4  3383                 The industry as a whole must ask
  5       itself if the efforts to monitor production and hiring
  6       goals are making a difference, are showing progress;
  7       and if so, how much progress, and could and should it
  8       be faster?
  9  3384                 Can these measurements be
 10       demonstrated both qualitatively and quantitatively?
 11  3385                 These are the kinds of questions to
 12       which you, the Commissioners, should be getting
 13       answers, not just from CHUM during this hearing but
 14       from the entire industry.  We would urge you never to
 15       let up on this until things have really changed.
 16  3386                 We would also urge you, even with
 17       this pioneer of diversity, not to ease up in your
 18       efforts to enhance what and who Canadians see on our
 19       screens, as well as improve the cultural mix of those
 20       who make the decisions.
 21  3387                 Thank you.
 22  3388                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 23  3389                 Commissioner Cardozo.
 24  3390                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you very
 25       much, gentlemen.


  1  3391                 If you don't mind, I won't ask
  2       questions in the interests of time.  There are various
  3       others who have waited patiently, like you have.
  4  3392                 I want to make two comments, though.
  5  3393                 One is that I appreciate, Professor
  6       Lumb, your usually clear and pointed comments and also
  7       your feedback on how we are approaching cultural
  8       diversity throughout the industry.
  9  3394                 It is a relatively new effort, as you
 10       mentioned, and we certainly look forward to all the
 11       feedback and guidance people like yourself can give us. 
 12       So thank you for that.
 13  3395                 The other comment I want to make is
 14       with respect to the action plan that you mention that
 15       CHUM has filed.  Since that came in late Friday, any
 16       intervenors have ten days to get back to us.
 17  3396                 I certainly look forward to any
 18       feedback you might provide to us.
 19  3397                 Thank you very much.
 20  3398                 MR. LUMB:  I will just throw in one
 21       quick comment.  I was encouraged that Diane Boehme this
 22       morning talked about how strongly the independent
 23       producers are urged to respect the Best Practices.
 24  3399                 I notice there are some figures given
 25       in this; that in the range of 74 productions, 13 per


  1       cent reflect diversity.  But qualitatively, who played
  2       what?  I will give you a very fast example.
  3  3400                 The CBC a few months ago had a
  4       two-hour special called "Jinnah", which was a crusading
  5       south Asian reporter with a lot of south Asian
  6       characters.  There were heroes; there were villains;
  7       there were ordinary players.  There were lots of other
  8       players who were not visible minorities.  It was an
  9       interesting fast-paced production.
 10  3401                 I thought to myself: Wow, I don't
 11       think I have ever seen anything like that on Canadian
 12       television.
 13  3402                 Was this a pilot?  I wrote to the CBC
 14       to ask if this was possibly a pilot, and I haven't had
 15       an answer yet.  That was a couple of months ago.
 16  3403                 If something like that could be seen
 17       on the screens on a returning basis, even once a week,
 18       once every couple of weeks, that would be terrific.
 19  3404                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you very
 20       much.
 21  3405                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 22       gentlemen.
 23  3406                 Mr. Secretary.
 24  3407                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  3408                 We will now try to go back to Ms


  1       Loretta Todd.
  2  3409                 Ms Todd, can you hear me this time?
  3  3410                 Ms Todd, are you there?
  4  3411                 MS TODD:  Yes, I am.
  5  3412                 MR. LEBEL:  You have ten minutes to
  6       make your presentation.
  7  3413                 MS TODD:  Thank you, again, Chairman
  8       Dalfen, and the other esteemed Members of the CRTC, for
  9       the opportunity to speak to you today.
 10  3414                 As an independent aboriginal producer
 11       there are certain expectations that I have in dealing
 12       with broadcasters.  I would even call them values. 
 13       They include accessibility, professionalism, greater
 14       vision and intelligence with respect to programming...
 15       --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques
 16  3415                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry, Ms Todd,
 17       we have technical difficulties once again.
 18  3416                 When we take our break at 8:30, we
 19       will have the technicians test again, and hopefully we
 20       can get you back in here so that we can hear you.
 21  3417                 I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
 22  3418                 Mr. Secretary, please call the next
 23       item.
 24  3419                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  3420                 The next appearing intervention will


  1       be presented by G'Nadjiwon Ki Aboriginal Tourism
  2       Association, Mr. Jack Contin.
  4  3421                 MR. CONTIN:  First of all, I would
  5       like to say "ahneen", which in Ojibwa means hello, and
  6       good evening.
  7  3422                 My name is Jack Contin.  I am from
  8       the Henvey Inlet First Nations out of Georgian Bay.  I
  9       am also the Executive Director of G'Nadjiwon Ki
 10       Aboriginal Tourism Association.
 11  3423                 For those who don't know Ojibwa,
 12       "g'nadjiwon ki" means beautiful land.  It was inspired
 13       by the beauty and the nature of where we live on
 14       Georgian Bay, the 30,000 islands in the Great Lakes and
 15       St. Lawrence lowlands, and the relationship that the
 16       First Nations have had for many years, from the past to
 17       the present, and for their future.
 18  3424                 This is what I want to talk about,
 19       about our organization and particularly the strong
 20       relationship we have had with The NewVR.
 21  3425                 We are here to support the
 22       application to renew their licence.  For me it is a
 23       real honour, Mr. Chairman and Members of the
 24       Commission, to be here this evening to give you at
 25       least a taste of aboriginal tourism for our area.  It


  1       is relatively new.
  2  3426                 We had the opportunity to have met
  3       with The NewVR this year and have produced a series of
  4       vignettes to promote our culture in various ways.  I
  5       think this is the type of relationship that we feel is
  6       a strong commitment, a direction that we see as a
  7       strong relationship to promote aboriginal tourism in
  8       Ontario.
  9  3427                 First of all, let me explain when I
 10       talked about aboriginal tourism and how relatively new
 11       it is.  It is relatively new.  Many people believe that
 12       it has been around for a long time.  It has been, but
 13       from our perspective from where we live, we represent
 14       seven First Nations.  We also represent the Métis
 15       people, Status and non-Status indians.
 16  3428                 The seven First Nations that live in
 17       our catchment area, which is also the catchment area
 18       pretty well for VRLand, the CKVR viewing area, the
 19       opportunity to profile and showcase aboriginal culture
 20       -- and this is what the power of the vignettes have.
 21  3429                 I want to explain basically also that
 22       we have to be careful in terms of putting the cart
 23       before the horse in promoting aboriginal tourism.  I
 24       think this is the role of G'Nadjiwon Ki.
 25  3430                 Our role as an organization is to


  1       build the aboriginal tourism industry.  We have done
  2       numerous research in terms of knowing what the products
  3       are.  In Ontario we believe that there are over 600
  4       products, but they vary in sizes from small to medium. 
  5       In our catchment area we have over 50 businesses that
  6       are focused on tourism.
  7  3431                 What we found in our studies in
  8       research is that the products are market ready, but
  9       they are not export ready yet.
 10  3432                 When we created the vignettes with
 11       The NewVR, I would like say a heartfelt thank you for
 12       the creativity department that assisted us in the
 13       development of these PSAs or vignettes.  It really was
 14       profiling and promoting aboriginal culture.
 15  3433                 Our responsibility as an organization
 16       is to ensure to the global market that we are building
 17       market ready products.  We are in the business to look
 18       at training and education.  We also do consulting work
 19       to assist aboriginal businesses and entrepreneurs, and
 20       particularly the youth, to take the opportunity to look
 21       at a career in aboriginal tourism.
 22  3434                 When we did work with The NewVR, we
 23       were honoured to actually create vignettes that were
 24       market ready, and we have received numerous compliments
 25       about these vignettes.  It really shows the commitment


  1       with this particular television station that they have
  2       with the community.
  3  3435                 It is a diverse culture that we live
  4       in with aboriginal people, but it is also looking at
  5       the geographical location, the diversity of tourism. 
  6       The catchment area for the viewing of The NewVR focuses
  7       a lot on tourism destination.
  8  3436                 The aboriginal people have a huge
  9       role to play in terms of benefiting from the aboriginal
 10       tourism industry.  As our role, we are a promoter.  We
 11       also are an organization that presents products that
 12       will be market ready.
 13  3437                 When we created the vignettes, there
 14       was a main purpose behind this.  As I mentioned
 15       earlier, we wanted to target the aboriginal business in
 16       First Nations to be able to be part of the industry, to
 17       benefit from the economic development opportunities and
 18       the partnerships.
 19  3438                 The other part was to look at revenue
 20       generation through the aboriginal tourism products that
 21       are readily available and basically from that look at
 22       creating partnerships with other partners of
 23       mainstream.
 24  3439                 I should say, also, that our
 25       membership comprised of aboriginally owned businesses,


  1       but we also have a membership from the associated
  2       members that are not aboriginally owned.  They are
  3       provincial attraction sites, federal attraction sites,
  4       like national parks, but they all have aboriginal
  5       components.
  6  3440                 I mentioned the aspect that youth is
  7       a very important aspect with our development, and we
  8       have produced some vignettes also focusing on youth, on
  9       aboriginal interpretation, archaeology.  We feel that
 10       this is the strength that we have in the power of our
 11       massaging through the use of these vignettes.
 12  3441                 I believe that the future for
 13       aboriginal people is to look at the opportunity for
 14       partnerships, as I mentioned.  We are looking at
 15       employment for aboriginal people during the shoulder
 16       seasons, making it a four-season destination.
 17  3442                 We think in our area that aboriginal
 18       tourism and the tourism industry focuses on just six
 19       months, from May to October.  But we found because of
 20       the vignettes we created some great opportunities with
 21       Resorts Ontario.  We have completed a list of inventory
 22       of aboriginal artisans, artists, performers, and we
 23       have worked out an opportunity to showcase these at
 24       Resorts Ontario.
 25  3443                 This summer we are working with one


  1       of the museums in our area that will profile and
  2       showcase aboriginal culture for the World Catholic
  3       Youth visit this summer.
  4  3444                 It all stems basically with the
  5       relationship that we have with the power of massaging
  6       through these vignettes.
  7  3445                 I sincerely believe that our
  8       relationship will continue with The NewVR for the
  9       future.  We will look at developing new opportunities
 10       for packages and partnering and creating economic
 11       opportunities.  We also want to focus our efforts to
 12       building a stronger partnership with mainstream tourism
 13       so that we can all participate and contribute to the
 14       economic opportunities.
 15  3446                 In conclusion, I want to convey in my
 16       letter to the Secretary-General that with leading
 17       examples like The NewVR and their commitment to the
 18       community, reaching out to meet the needs, particularly
 19       for the aboriginal community, it is greatly
 20       appreciated.
 21  3447                 In the long term we feel that it will
 22       be a benefit for both in terms of the relationship for
 23       the future.  I would like to say "miigwetch".  Thank
 24       you for allowing me to at least say how grateful we are
 25       to The New VR and their role as a leader for the


  1       community in information needs.  And I am not just
  2       talking for aboriginal people but all communities in
  3       our area.
  4  3448                 Thank you.
  5  3449                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
  6       much.
  7  3450                 Commissioner Langford.
  8  3451                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you for
  9       that.
 10  3452                 I wonder if I could ask some specific
 11       factual questions so I will understand a little more
 12       your experience.
 13  3453                 You speak of these vignettes.  How
 14       many were there?
 15  3454                 MR. CONTIN:  We had an 18-month
 16       relationship, and we produced five in the first six or
 17       seven months.  In total there are ten that have been
 18       created.
 19  3455                 They vary from aspects of aboriginal
 20       history in our area, aboriginal youth and aboriginal
 21       interpretation.  Some are also focused on some of the
 22       culture of storytellers and artisans and artists.
 23  3456                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  How long do
 24       they run?
 25  3457                 MR. CONTIN:  The first PSA or


  1       vignette we produced was 30 seconds, and the remaining
  2       nine are 60 seconds.
  3  3458                 There are plans to produce more for
  4       this year.  Our aspiration for this year is to look at
  5       developing a more thorough type of presentation with
  6       our partners.
  7  3459                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So they are
  8       more educational than commercial.  They are not focused
  9       on one of your market-ready products or on one of your
 10       lodges or one of your tourist opportunities.
 11  3460                 They are more informative generally.
 12  3461                 MR. CONTIN:  They are focused a lot
 13       on education and awareness of aboriginal tourism and
 14       the gifts that we can provide.  It is an understanding
 15       -- I think I mentioned earlier that the understanding
 16       is that aboriginal tourism is very small.
 17  3462                 What we are trying to create is to
 18       look at creating awareness with our own people with the
 19       opportunities and services that we can provide to build
 20       that industry.
 21  3463                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Are there
 22       other aboriginal associations around Canada, tourism
 23       associations like yours?
 24  3464                 MR. CONTIN:  Yes, there are.  I will
 25       explain basically how we are organized on a national to


  1       a regional to a local level.
  2  3465                 We are considered to be a local
  3       organization.  We are more of a service provider that
  4       bills the aboriginal tourism industry by providing
  5       services.  There are Regional Tourism Associations. 
  6       There are two in Ontario, called the Northern Ontario
  7       Native Tourism Association, as well as the Aboriginal
  8       Tourism of Southern Ontario.
  9  3466                 We sit on these boards, but they sit
 10       at the national table, which is the Aboriginal Tourism
 11       Team Canada Tourism Forum.  They represent the national
 12       level for each province.
 13  3467                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Do you know
 14       whether any of your colleagues are having the same kind
 15       of success with other commercial television networks
 16       that you are having with CHUM?
 17  3468                 MR. CONTIN:  Our understanding is
 18       that we are probably one of the first organizations to
 19       have built a relationship by producing this type of
 20       awareness.
 21  3469                 There have been larger campaigns, and
 22       mostly the regional tourism association attracts the
 23       travel/trade industry by going to travel and trade
 24       shows in Germany.  So it is a different type of market
 25       awareness.


  1  3470                 As for Aboriginal Tourism Team
  2       Canada, they focus on the travel and trade industry,
  3       but also last year we were part of a larger awareness
  4       campaign to look at a partnership with Air Canada with
  5       an aboriginal drawing on one of their planes.
  6  3471                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
  7       very much.
  8  3472                 MR. CONTIN:  Miigwetch.
  9  3473                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 10  3474                 Mr. Secretary.
 11  3475                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 12  3476                 I would like to point out that
 13       intervenors Nos. 13, 14, 15, 17 and 20 will not appear
 14       at the public hearing.  They will remain on the public
 15       record as non-appearing interventions.
 16  3477                 I also understand that a couple of
 17       appearing intervenors do have time constraints.  So we
 18       will now hear from intervention No. 19 on the agenda,
 19       from Ayal Lesh on behalf of Earth Day Canada.
 20       --- Pause
 21  3478                 MR. LEBEL:  Not seeing her,
 22       Mr. Chairman, we will now hear from intervention No.
 23       10, from Mr. Skidmore of the London Public Library.
 24  3479                 Mr. Skidmore, you have ten minutes to
 25       make your presentation.  Thank you.


  2  3480                 MR. SKIDMORE:  Thank you.
  3  3481                 Mr. Chair and Commissioners, I very
  4       much appreciate the opportunity this evening of coming
  5       and sharing some observations with you.
  6  3482                 Having sat through the entire
  7       proceedings today, I am going to deviate somewhat from
  8       what I initially was going to share with you.  I think
  9       much of it is captured in my written submission, and I
 10       will hit the key highlights that I would have liked to.
 11  3483                 In my few minutes I am going to
 12       comment both in terms of an opportunity to celebrate,
 13       an opportunity I hope to share some context, some
 14       opportunity to, I hope, leave you with a request in
 15       terms of those things I have observed today.
 16  3484                 I come to you this evening not simply
 17       as the CEO of the London Public Library; I come to you
 18       as someone who is, I believe, involved in and committed
 19       to my community, whether it is in Big Brothers, the
 20       Chamber of Commerce, the United Way, whatever.
 21  3485                 I say that not from an egocentric
 22       point of view but as someone who is committed to London
 23       and sharing some observations with you in that context.
 24  3486                 The first element related to
 25       celebration is that Commissioner Langford, I want to


  1       emphasize to you that I was encouraged by your
  2       inquiries tonight related to our new Media Literacy
  3       Centre.  I was encouraged by the responses that you
  4       heard.
  5  3487                 I simply want to reinforce with you
  6       the fact that you can count on the fact that it is
  7       going to move forward in an aggressive way.  It is
  8       going to move forward in a manner that I think is
  9       unique, not from an egocentric point of view for
 10       London, Ontario, but for our province, for our country
 11       and, frankly, for North America.
 12  3488                 I believe it is unique.  I believe it
 13       is something that in developing it we are not only
 14       going to provide students, parents, grandparents,
 15       teachers, researchers, educators with something of a
 16       local nature in southwestern Ontario, but by virtue of
 17       what we will be able to establish of a virtual reality
 18       through the Web site, everybody will be able to benefit
 19       from that.
 20  3489                 The benefits will be a better
 21       understanding of what media literacy is from an
 22       education point of view and to be able to be more
 23       discerning as a member of the public.
 24  3490                 I want you to know that we are not
 25       stopping with our partnership with CHUM.  We have now,


  1       because of the interest that has been shown across the
  2       country, other corporate sponsors who are interested in
  3       becoming involved, as well as some people from the
  4       public sector.  That, I think, is very encouraging.
  5  3491                 So it would be my view that the next
  6       time CHUM comes to you, they will be able to come in
  7       celebration and to others from the London Public
  8       Library to say that this has moved forward in a fashion
  9       of which we can all be proud.
 10  3492                 The second is to provide a little bit
 11       of context in relation to my comments this evening.
 12  3493                 I did not grow up in London, Ontario. 
 13       I grew up in metropolitan Toronto and spent most of my
 14       life in metropolitan Toronto.  I have been a Londoner
 15       for eight or nine years.  Until you have been in London
 16       35 to 40 years, you are not a Londoner.  So as a result
 17       of that, I share somewhat as an observer, not as a
 18       citizen in the same way.
 19  3494                 I can remember when CHUM for me meant
 20       the Top 50 on the billboard.  Given that this is on the
 21       public record, it is somewhat of a chagrin to admit
 22       that in a public setting.  But that is what it did mean
 23       to me.
 24  3495                 As someone who grew up in Toronto, I
 25       have watched Citytv grow.


  1  3496                 As a former Director of Education for
  2       metropolitan Toronto, I know that when there were
  3       critical education issues before the public, it did not
  4       come to the attention largely of the other media.  But
  5       Citytv was there to cover it.  It was there to bring
  6       those issues to the public.
  7  3497                 I would submit to you that in that
  8       same fashion that is now replicated in the city of
  9       London.
 10  3498                 As a former Director of Education in
 11       London, I can say to you that CFPL makes a concerted
 12       effort, and has continued to make a concerted effort,
 13       to make sure that the educational issues are brought
 14       before the public.  That is something that is
 15       significant.
 16  3499                 I would also say to you tonight that
 17       we, as an organization -- and I am not certainly
 18       trained as a librarian in any sense.  I came to this
 19       role from my previous role as a consultant, and I was
 20       asked to become involved for a period of time.
 21  3500                 As we have tried to reinvent what
 22       libraries are all about, I can say to you without
 23       hesitation tonight that The NewPL has been a
 24       significant part of that.
 25  3501                 The outgrowth of that was in fact


  1       this new Media Literacy Centre.
  2  3502                 Mr. Chair, it did not begin with
  3       that, however.  It began with the context of us
  4       needing, as we reinvented ourselves, to raise money. 
  5       $26 million plus was our allocation from the city of
  6       London, but to create an exemplary library, not just a
  7       good library, we needed to raise the standard and raise
  8       the bar.
  9  3503                 I am pleased to say to you tonight,
 10       and hopefully not from a boastful or egotistical
 11       perspective, in less than two years we have raised
 12       $4 million in the community that is going to allow us
 13       to have an exemplary facility.
 14  3504                 In so doing, it led us to the
 15       opportunity to have some dialogue -- a dialogue that
 16       started locally.  It started with Kate Young and Don
 17       Mumford, and it expanded to take on more of a national
 18       perspective.
 19  3505                 Tonight, in celebrating what we have
 20       done this far -- but I speak in a sense of great
 21       anticipation -- is the fact that we had something that
 22       was grown and initiated locally, but the merits of it
 23       were seen by CHUM nationally, and we moved forward in a
 24       broader context that I think is going to benefit all
 25       Canadians.


  1  3506                 Today I have listened much to the
  2       discussion about hours, financial implications and cuts
  3       that could potentially impact on television stations
  4       and indeed, more importantly, on people's lives.
  5  3507                 I have listened to the word "local" a
  6       number of occasions.  Again, Commissioner Langford, I
  7       have heard you mention a number of times that the word
  8       "local" has been raised verbally, as well as in written
  9       form.
 10  3508                 Today I did not hear anybody at any
 11       point define the term "local", and I do not want to be
 12       presumptuous to suggest that it is no somewhere defined
 13       in your mandate.  But today I did not hear the word
 14       "local" defined in any sense.
 15  3509                 I will define for you what I think
 16       "local" means.
 17  3510                 In southwester Ontario, in London for
 18       The NewPL, it means not only just London as a city; it
 19       means London in the neighbourhoods.  It means Lucan. 
 20       It means Woodstock.  It means those surrounding towns.
 21  3511                 And there is a real emphasis that I
 22       can say without hesitation that is placed to provide
 23       that kind of balance so that it doesn't become simply
 24       egocentric related to the city of London itself.
 25  3512                 I share with you one very small


  1       example of the importance of the kind of coverage that
  2       The NewPL provides.
  3  3513                 On Sunday night it was my privilege
  4       to attend a fundraiser for Living Community London,
  5       which is for developmentally challenged young people
  6       and adults. As we pulled into the parking lot, two
  7       other people being Pauline's guest and mine, made
  8       reference that they saw the green truck there of The
  9       NewPL.  And their first comment was:  Isn't nice to see
 10       that The NewPL is out here covering it.
 11  3514                 I know for a fact that people went
 12       home that night to see what kind of coverage they had
 13       obtained.
 14  3515                 I say to you without hesitation that
 15       we would not have been able to raise $4 million in the
 16       city of London had we not had the exposure to what we
 17       are attempting to do with our new Reading Garden, which
 18       will be unique again to North America.  We would not
 19       have been able to get the corporate sponsorships that
 20       we have or interest philanthropists in the fashion we
 21       have without strong media coverage.
 22  3516                 So I say to you, from my perspective,
 23       the local definition of southwestern Ontario is not
 24       only communities; it is neighbourhoods.  That is what
 25       people have come to expect.


  1  3517                 As part of my comments related to
  2       context, I will simply say to you that I can assure you
  3       that I have seen a dramatic difference between the
  4       previous ownership and this one.  I say that in the
  5       context of the previous ownership was such that there
  6       was very little difference between flicking the
  7       channels and seeing what was national and international
  8       coverage.
  9  3518                 At times there have been some of us
 10       who have even been critical of The NewPL, that it had
 11       such a local emphasis at times in the first 15 to 20
 12       minutes of its broadcasting, but that is what people
 13       look for.  That is what the high school athlete looks
 14       for, to see if his or her event is going to be covered.
 15  3519                 I indicated to you that I was also
 16       bringing a request to you.
 17  3520                 In working as a consultant, the one
 18       thing I learned in both the public and private sector
 19       is that for organizations to be successful in this new
 20       knowledge society, they had to find ways of being
 21       sufficiently flexible to reinvent themselves.
 22  3521                 Today, as I listened to hours,
 23       financial implications and cuts, as I listened to the
 24       discussions around what the financial implications of
 25       all of that could be -- and I fully understood, I


  1       think, both sides of that coin -- I would say to you as
  2       my request that as a citizen of London, as a CEO of an
  3       organization that is trying to reinvent itself, I would
  4       ask that in the wisdom of Solomon that you find some
  5       way of finding the flexibility for local stations such
  6       as The NewPL or CHUM nationally to be able to reinvent
  7       itself.
  8  3522                 If that is not there, then there
  9       won't be the opportunity to create the media literacy
 10       centres, and there won't be the opportunity for us to
 11       move forward those critical local items on our agenda.
 12  3523                 In conclusion, let me respectfully
 13       submit to you that tonight I am not here and did not
 14       cancel plane reservations -- and I do not say that to
 15       impress you.  I say that because I wanted to make sure
 16       that I shared my observations with you.
 17  3524                 I am not here tonight because I am a
 18       fan of CHUM.  I am not here tonight to be their
 19       advocate.  I am certainly not here in the spirit of
 20       salesmanship.
 21  3525                 What I am here to say is that six to
 22       eight months ago Mr. Switzer, Mr. Waters, Mr. Znaimer,
 23       Ms Crawford, Mr. Sherratt -- those were just names to
 24       me.  But I say to you tonight that after very difficult
 25       and tough negotiations as to what a new partnership


  1       would be in a public enterprise and a private
  2       enterprise, I am here tonight as a respected partner of
  3       theirs.  I am not here as someone who they have
  4       sponsored something in our organization.
  5  3526                 From my perspective, the integrity
  6       that I have seen them present in the spirit of those
  7       discussions, those negotiations and the agreements that
  8       we have arrived at are ones that I think are honourable
  9       and ones that I respectfully tonight am proud to say
 10       that London Public Library is a partner with CHUM. 
 11       They are a partner with The NewPL.  That is the spirit
 12       in which I come to you tonight.
 13  3527                 I thank you for the opportunity of
 14       sharing my observations with you.  I have felt a little
 15       lonely sitting here, after watching Mr. Switzer with
 16       1900 people surrounding him today.  So if I am not
 17       feeling lonely, I am at least feeling exposed in the
 18       process.
 19  3528                 I don't envy you your job, but I
 20       repeat my request to you.  Please find in your wisdom
 21       some way of making sure that you provide that network
 22       and those local stations with the flexibility to do the
 23       kinds of things I have heard are important to other
 24       communities, but I assure you are important to London
 25       and southwestern Ontario.


  1  3529                 Thank you very much.
  2  3530                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  3  3531                 Commissioner Grauer.
  4  3532                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thank you very
  5       much.  That was a very full presentation.  I don't have
  6       any questions or clarification.
  7  3533                 I thank you very much.  I know you
  8       have come a long way, and you have been waiting all
  9       day.  We really appreciate that you have taken the time
 10       to come and share your views with us.  Thank you.
 11  3534                 MR. SKIDMORE:  My pleasure.  Thank
 12       you very much.
 13  3535                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 14  3536                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 15  3537                 We will now hear interventions 6 and
 16       7 on the agenda as a panel.  So we will hear from Pooja
 17       Narang and Timothy Kingston.
 18  3538                 You have ten minutes to make your
 19       presentation.  Go ahead when you are ready.
 21  3539                 MS NARANG:  Hello.  My name is Pooja
 22       Narang, and I am a journalism student at Centennial
 23       College in East York, Toronto.
 24  3540                 I am a resident of Barrie but
 25       attended school away from home, because our community


  1       college didn't have a journalism program.
  2  3541                 My family has been resident of VRLand
  3       for 20 years, and we own a family restaurant on Essa
  4       Road in Barrie, which has operated for 15 years.  The
  5       NewVR, located on Beacon Road, intersects with Essa
  6       Road, which is around the corner from my restaurant.
  7  3542                 The NewVR has meant many things to me
  8       at all stages of my life thus far.  As a child, the
  9       site of the blinking CKVR tower was a landmark, meaning
 10       that I was almost home from what seemed like a long
 11       journey from Toronto.
 12  3543                 As a teenager, every day I drove by
 13       The NewVR and hoped to one day work there.
 14  3544                 As an adult, I now have the
 15       opportunity to fulfil that dream when The NewVR has
 16       provided me with a job internship in my own community.
 17  3545                 In my final semester of school is our
 18       co-op program. I contacted The NewVR in hopes that I
 19       would be able to join their team for the four months of
 20       my internship.  I was pleased that I could move home
 21       and get from The NewVR what my community college
 22       couldn't provide for me, and that was the hands on
 23       experience in the field of my choice.
 24  3546                 Being a student and a new face to the
 25       station, I was worried about how I would fit into the


  1       team.  But after only a few minutes of being welcomed
  2       by the newsroom staff, I felt that I had known everyone
  3       a long time.  Some faces were familiar to me, as my
  4       face was familiar to some of those who were regular
  5       customers at my restaurant.
  6  3547                 My career interest is in reporting,
  7       and I had the opportunity to go out with reporters
  8       regularly to observe them.  Every day The NewVR has a
  9       nightly news critique, and I find that very
 10       educational, not only for me but for the reporters who
 11       are there.
 12  3548                 I have gained so much knowledge
 13       working in the newsroom, which I know is crucial to my
 14       experience as a reporter.
 15  3549                 As I mentioned in my letter of
 16       support and permission to appear here today, The NewVr
 17       has public tours regularly.  School-aged kids, as well
 18       as adults, are seen on a regular basis being guided
 19       through the newsroom.  Just recently there were four
 20       co-op students at one time in the newsroom.
 21  3550                 I think this symbolizes very well how
 22       involved The NewVR is in the community and how it
 23       provides opportunity for students like myself.
 24  3551                 During my time at the station, I was
 25       shocked at the public's reaction towards The NewVR.  I


  1       found people got very excited at the sight of the
  2       yellow VR trucks, always honking their horns in support
  3       of the station.
  4  3552                 I would like to share with you one
  5       experience I had, because on this particular day I
  6       realized how important The NewVR was to Barrie and its
  7       surrounding communities.
  8  3553                 One photographer and I went out to
  9       shoot a story, and he needed shots of cars on the
 10       highway.  So he took an exit that had an overpass on
 11       the bridge, and we parked the car.  I stood on the
 12       bridge and watched all the cars go by, and they were
 13       all honking their horns and waving.  As much as I would
 14       like to think that they were waving at me, I realized
 15       the real celebrity there was the yellow VI truck that
 16       they recognized.
 17  3554                 People's expressions were so full of
 18       joy.  You could see it through the windshield how
 19       excited they were that they thought they were going to
 20       be on the 6 o'clock news.
 21  3555                 It was amazing to see how happy the
 22       station was making people.  It is something that I can
 23       say I am very proud to be a part of; something that
 24       brings smiles to the people of VRLand.
 25  3556                 I have also experienced a few


  1       breaking news events in the newsroom, and I realize how
  2       remarkable it is how these people come together, how
  3       passionate they are to provide the community with what
  4       the community needs to know, whether it is about an
  5       outbreak of influenza in our community and what it is
  6       doing to the senior citizens, or one reporter couldn't
  7       get into one of the senior homes and did the interview
  8       through a window.
  9  3557                 That was to symbolize and to show the
 10       community that it was sad; you couldn't talk to the
 11       lady and she wanted to be able to give her opinion. 
 12       But he persisted.  He didn't stop at just getting into
 13       the senior citizen home.  He went and symbolized what
 14       he wanted to achieve anyways.
 15  3558                 Everyone there is involved, and they
 16       also allowed me to have the opportunity to assist in
 17       their team work and be a part of the satisfaction that
 18       is felt when the news is delivered to the public
 19       factually and timely.
 20  3559                 The NewVR is essential for its
 21       communities, the people and the children, but most
 22       important it has given me hope and the opportunity to
 23       come to my home to continue my education.
 24  3560                 Thank you.
 25  3561                 MR. KINGSTON:  Hello.  My name is


  1       Timothy Kingston.  I work and run an organization
  2       called YO Media, which is a youth organized media group
  3       that uses the arts to educate young people in the
  4       Township of Georgina, Ontario -- the town specifically
  5       being Sutton West.
  6  3562                 I am going to try and paint a picture
  7       of what it is like in Sutton and how The NewVR has been
  8       interacting with my Youth Organized Media group.
  9  3563                 We have a situation in Georgina that
 10       is probably not unlike many other communities in
 11       southern Ontario.  I noticed today that there was a lot
 12       of discussion about growth, growth in the media and
 13       growth of communities and how that growth was
 14       paralleled with new people that were coming to Canada.
 15  3564                 Sutton is a very under-developed
 16       community.  It is probably one of the richest and
 17       poorest communities at the same time in Ontario.  It
 18       has been strangely ignored by the sprawl that has grown
 19       out of Toronto.
 20  3565                 One of the things that my
 21       organization has been doing is taking a look at
 22       environmental issues in my community and trying to
 23       figure out how we as a small community -- that will
 24       surely grow, because our community holds the largest
 25       stake in Lake Simcoe and has the largest amount of


  1       shorefront of a municipality on Lake Simcoe.  How our
  2       community can actively participate in the changes that
  3       are surely to come.
  4  3566                 It is a very difficult thing when you
  5       have a very uneducated and poor community.  They have
  6       paid their taxes.  They have lived there as long as
  7       everybody else, but the change comes very quickly. 
  8       Sometimes it only takes four years, and everything is
  9       very different.
 10  3567                 I and a number of people in this
 11       community have decided to take on this challenge of
 12       trying to educate our community.  So we look to the
 13       media to do so.
 14  3568                 We would start with our print
 15       journalism.  We happen to be in a situation where our
 16       local newspaper is now a part of the Metroland Media
 17       Group.  There are pros and cons to this.  There are a
 18       number of cons.
 19  3569                 As well, our local community
 20       broadcaster has been bought by Rogers, and there are
 21       pros and cons to this.
 22  3570                 It is obvious that Sutton and our
 23       community isn't really particularly a large economic
 24       player in the greater perspective of York Region.  In
 25       York Region there is Richmond Hill, Markham and


  1       Newmarket, which are major sprawl players.
  2  3571                 We had to take a look at how we could
  3       start to lobby, how we could use our news sources in
  4       our community.  I realized that there really wasn't any
  5       television station in our area.  That was sort of
  6       weird.  We tried to lobby the media as much as we
  7       could, our newspapers and our local radio stations and
  8       Rogers, but we really didn't get much response.
  9  3572                 We found this troubling because the
 10       environment happens to be a very important issue, and
 11       the growth and diversity that is going to come to our
 12       community is something that I think all new Canadians
 13       need to understand.  It is really important that the
 14       people who come to Canada as Canadian citizens are
 15       given the right to be educated properly about their
 16       natural environment, because they are becoming
 17       responsible for this natural environment.
 18  3573                 The particular issue that led me to
 19       interact with The NewVR specifically was probably
 20       actually out of a form of criticism.  We were quite
 21       angry at the fact that there were a number of serious
 22       environmental issues in our community that were just
 23       being totally ignored, and we were pretty much being
 24       laughed at.
 25  3574                 One of them was a smelter, an old


  1       aluminum smelter that had been in our community for 27
  2       years.  It is sitting on a wonderful wetland with a
  3       large heronry and all sorts of wonderful things.  Large
  4       amounts of toxic sludge are sort of sitting there, and
  5       no one is responsible.  The municipality is not
  6       responsible.  The province is not responsible.  No one
  7       is responsible.
  8  3575                 One day I decided that I would take a
  9       stab at The NewVR and see what response I would get
 10       from them.  I must admit when the phone rang I wasn't
 11       all that prepared.  There were a number of community
 12       people that had been a part of the process, and The
 13       NewVR came down and covered the story and continued to
 14       cover the story.
 15  3576                 In fact, they did perhaps 11 to 13
 16       different stories on the smelter, and the effect on a
 17       small community that was powerless was incredible.  The
 18       housewife who is leading the "Maskinonge River Get Rid
 19       of the Smelter Group" has met with Elizabeth Whitmore,
 20       has been on the CBC.
 21  3577                 The NewVR's participation was a
 22       catalyst.  It was an incredible confidence builder.
 23  3578                 I am not really sure whether there is
 24       any other news source in the community that is local
 25       that could have done that.


  1  3579                 We share a common responsibility with
  2       Barrie; that is, Lake Simcoe.  They are on the northern
  3       part of the lake, and we are at the southern part of
  4       the lake.
  5  3580                 This smelter's toxins were flowing
  6       into our rivers, which were flowing into our lakes,
  7       which were flowing into Barrie's drinking water. 
  8       Suddenly there was a reason for Sutton to be a part of
  9       the bigger picture, and that was really important to a
 10       lot of people in our community.
 11  3581                 It was really great to have that sort
 12       of support and to see the actual in-depth investigative
 13       journalism, which seems to be very rare.  It is taught
 14       in school, and it is the reason that so many young
 15       people involved in journalism but just doesn't seem to
 16       be there once you get involved in journalism
 17       professionally.
 18  3582                 I am here to support The NewVr in
 19       their licence renewal.
 20  3583                 I will make one comment about the
 21       growth that is affecting small communities and the
 22       media's role in it.
 23  3584                 You have spoken at great length today
 24       about the responsibility of the media to portray
 25       diversity with its people and the different cultures in


  1       Canada.  I would also encourage you to encourage the
  2       media to portray a landscape diversity that should also
  3       be portrayed.
  4  3585                 I don't know if you have ever done
  5       it, but I drove across the country last year and I came
  6       to the same street in every town that had the same
  7       strip mall stores, the same restaurants.  Sault Ste.
  8       Marie looked like Newmarket; Calgary looked like
  9       Mississauga.
 10  3586                 I think if CHUM and The NewVR are
 11       truly to be working towards portraying a diverse
 12       society, they definitely made the first step in coming
 13       to our community and allowing us to portray some of our
 14       diverse environmental features.
 15  3587                 Thank you.
 16  3588                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 17  3589                 Commissioner Langford.
 18  3590                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have a
 19       question for you, Ms Narang.  You must have heard
 20       Lionel Lumb, who is a Carleton University Professor of
 21       Journalism, speak about the changing make-up of his
 22       classrooms.
 23  3591                 Can you tell us a little bit about
 24       the make-up of the classrooms that you have been in for
 25       the last little while?


  1  3592                 MS NARANG:  While he was making that
  2       comment, I was sitting there shaking my head, because
  3       his stats were very similar to the ones in my college.
  4  3593                 I think there were four visible
  5       minorities; he said three, I think.  And it was the
  6       same class, about 25 people.
  7  3594                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  And the
  8       breakdown between men and women?
  9  3595                 MS NARANG:  I think there were a few
 10       more men; but other than that, it was pretty equal.
 11  3596                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
 12       much.  Those are my questions.
 13  3597                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 14       for taking the time to be here and sharing your views
 15       with us.
 16  3598                 Mr. Secretary.
 17  3599                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 18  3600                 The next intervention will be
 19       presented by Janice Laking.
 20  3601                 You have ten minutes to make your
 21       presentation.
 23  3602                 MS LAKING:  First, I want to say
 24       thank you very much.  I am very privileged to be here
 25       and to be able to see in person the action of my board. 


  1       Thank you.
  2  3603                 It has been a long day for you.  It
  3       has been a long day for us.  It has been a much longer
  4       two days for you, and I appreciate that you are still
  5       here.
  6  3604                 My name is Janice.  I am here
  7       supporting VR.  I look both forward and back.  I am not
  8       a god, though.
  9  3605                 I want to say that when you come to
 10       Barrie -- and I hope that you will -- the best coffee
 11       in Barrie -- we don't have to have Starbucks, although
 12       I think we have.  The very best coffee is served by the
 13       restaurant owned by the wonderful young gal that you
 14       just listened to.
 15  3606                 Aren't you proud of our young people. 
 16       We will have coffee at her family restaurant.
 17  3607                 I was first elected to Barrie City
 18       Council in 1972.  My friendship in the television
 19       industry goes back to a personal friendship with Val
 20       and Ralph Snelgrove, the VR.  So that gives me special
 21       privilege being here tonight.
 22  3608                 I was the Mayor from 1988 until 2000,
 23       12 years in a community that for many of those years
 24       was the fastest growing community in the country.  I
 25       liked to think it was because of the great Mayor, but


  1       the truth was that it is location, location.
  2  3609                 It is in the Toronto market, as we
  3       have heard tonight, and because it has that proximity
  4       to a very large Toronto population, it has been
  5       particularly important that we have an identity of our
  6       own, an identity and a quality of life that has been
  7       enhanced for us over the years by CKVR.
  8  3610                 They have shown people that live in
  9       the south end of Barrie, some of the new commuters,
 10       that we actually live on a bay.  They certainly have
 11       shown the people in Toronto.
 12  3611                 As our community has grown so
 13       rapidly, it has been extra important for us to have the
 14       owners, the executives of business realize the
 15       opportunities that have been afforded to them in Barrie
 16       in the quality of life and the place that they can live
 17       and work and play.
 18  3612                 VR has been so important in
 19       portraying that quality of life, that community.
 20  3613                 I agree with Mr. Skidmore in his
 21       definition of local, because indeed it is not Barrie;
 22       it is the Barrie area, the community, the five counties
 23       surrounding Simcoe County that are all helped by VR.
 24  3614                 I want to tell you very quickly about
 25       two special interactions I have had with them.


  1  3615                 One was when I was privileged to be
  2       on their election coverage last year.  It was so
  3       exciting to be in that newsroom and have the feeds
  4       coming in from five, ten different locations around the
  5       county with their trucks and their people throughout
  6       that county sending the news back to the newsroom.
  7  3616                 That is important for a community. 
  8       That is the kind of coverage that no television station
  9       in Toronto was able to provide.  We had it in Simcoe,
 10       in Dufferin, in Peel, in Muskoka thanks to VR.
 11  3617                 The other little story I want to tell
 12       you is that many years ago, probably five now, Moses
 13       and my friend Doug -- I almost forgot your name, Doug;
 14       it is the hour of the night.  Moses and Doug and I sat
 15       in my office and looked out at a courtyard outside city
 16       hall that was fairly empty at that point and visualized
 17       an artificial ice rink that we were raising money to
 18       try and put into the courtyard and extended that
 19       thinking to a New Year's Eve celebration that we wanted
 20       to have.
 21  3618                 So we planned it two or three years
 22       before it happened.
 23  3619                 It has now happened for three years. 
 24       Other people may call it First Night.  One of the
 25       staffers of VR nicknamed it "That Thing at City Hall"


  1       because we didn't have any other name for it, and it
  2       has been "That Thing at City Hall" ever since.
  3  3620                 It has been free entertainment for
  4       thousands of people in the street, thousands more at
  5       home who have been able to watch not only the things
  6       that were happening at Barrie City Hall but the things
  7       that were happening in Collingwood, in Midland, at
  8       Horseshoe Valley, in the Muskoka area, in the Newmarket
  9       area.  All those things have been brought to us by our
 10       community television, which we love, and which I hope
 11       you are going to help support in a way to continue the
 12       kind of support that they have been giving to my
 13       community over these many years.
 14  3621                 As well as the industries we have
 15       brought to town, we have some very special tourist and
 16       tourist attractions.  The main spark of the tourist
 17       attraction is my friend with tonight, William Moore.
 18  3622                 MR. MOORE:  I have to say, first of
 19       all, I am a great fan of my friend Janice, the mayor of
 20       all mayors.  It is important to understand that when
 21       Barrie went through a period of growth, huge growth and
 22       responsible growth, Janice Laking was the mayor, and I
 23       had the privilege to work with her.  I also had the
 24       privilege to work with The NewVR and the CHUM group. 
 25       We are lucky in Barrie, because we are blessed with


  1       some pretty wonderful people.
  2  3623                 We have changed.  We have
  3       diversified.  We have heard so much today about
  4       diversity, and I think it is important that we all pay
  5       attention to the nature of diversity.  I think there is
  6       another sense of diversity that hasn't been touched on
  7       here, and that is the diversity of communication.
  8  3624                 I am the CEO, but they call me a
  9       director of a public art museum, the McLaren Art Centre
 10       in Barrie.  The NewVR is a media partner of the McLaren
 11       Art Centre; that is, we are one of the very lucky
 12       groups of many groups that VR supports in many ways.
 13  3625                 In our case we have had a
 14       relationship for about nine years.  I am going to take
 15       the McLaren Art Centre back nine years for you.
 16  3626                 Nine years ago we had a budget of
 17       about $250,000 a year.  We had a collection of one
 18       piece.  We saw about 6,000 people through our gallery,
 19       which was a beautiful old house on a hill.  We had a
 20       capital budget of zero also.
 21  3627                 In 2002 we have an operating budget
 22       of $3 million.  We have a capital budget of $10
 23       million.  We have a collection worth $50 million.  We
 24       have grown.
 25  3628                 We have grown in a community of


  1       100,000.  We have grown in a community that is
  2       supported in many ways educationally.  The McLaren is
  3       one of the most involved educators within that
  4       community.
  5  3629                 We do outreach to 45,000 kids a year
  6       in the classrooms of Simcoe County -- by the way, the
  7       largest county in Ontario.  We take shows around the
  8       province.  We deliver shows around the country.  We
  9       deliver specialized arts education to communities with
 10       special needs, to youth at risk.
 11  3630                 We do exhibitions.  Those exhibitions
 12       respond to the nature of communication.
 13  3631                 Our great partner in all of that is
 14       VR.  VR have done for us something that I don't think
 15       we could have achieved through any other media
 16       organization.
 17  3632                 They have allowed us to grow and
 18       watched us and actually pointed out the fact that we
 19       were growing.
 20  3633                 When I saw Jack coming up and talking
 21       about aboriginal tourism, G'Nadjiwon Ki; beautiful
 22       land.  You can't help but think of VRLand, too.
 23  3634                 I look at his group in its genesis
 24       days and getting help, real, serious, important
 25       structural help for free.


  1  3635                 VR gives help for free to so many
  2       people.  We are one.
  3  3636                 When we last summer took the big
  4       challenge and took on the big city and took a Rodin
  5       show to Toronto and spent $1.1 million putting it on
  6       there, the first place we turned to for help was The
  7       NewVR to follow the progress of this great Canadian
  8       asset.
  9  3637                 We did take it to Toronto, and our
 10       own community heard very strong words about this
 11       amazing cultural asset resting in Toronto.  What we got
 12       in Toronto was Toronto: that sense of how can these
 13       guys from away be pulling off anything this
 14       spectacular?  And in the tradition of Canadian, and
 15       sometimes Toronto, media -- with CHUM as an exception
 16       -- they were trying to eat their young.
 17  3638                 At home we had positive response,
 18       which allowed us to grow and allowed us to achieve
 19       something more important: the pride of a community and
 20       an asset that they knew was important for a whole
 21       country.  That came through the support of VR.
 22  3639                 VR produces PSAs for us.  It is
 23       involved in the production of a documentary on Art
 24       City, which is an outgrowth of that collection of
 25       Rodins.  We are transforming the city of Barrie into an


  1       international art park.
  2  3640                 In the Sesqui Centennial Year, which
  3       is next year, I am plugging Sesqui Centennial, because
  4       we have all learned to say it now --
  5  3641                 MR. LEBEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Moore. 
  6       You are now exceeding the allocated time.
  7  3642                 MR. MOORE:  In our Sesqui Centennial
  8       Year we will achieve a wonderful new arts project in
  9       Barrie, and this is with the help of The NewVR.
 10  3643                 I urge you to support their
 11       application.
 12  3644                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 13  3645                 Commissioner Wylie.
 14  3646                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I only have one
 15       question, Ms Laking:  Did you ever sit this late when
 16       you were mayor?
 17  3647                 MS LAKING:  Yes.  Actually, this is
 18       the time of night that I really come awake.
 19       --- Laughter / Rires
 20  3648                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thank you for
 21       your participation.
 22  3649                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to
 23       call a break.
 24  3650                 We will resume in ten minutes.
 25       --- Upon recessing at 2035 / Suspension à 2035


  1       --- Upon resuming at 2050 / Reprend à 2050
  2  3651                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À
  3       l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
  4  3652                 Mr. Secretary.
  5  3653                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  6  3654                 Interventions 9 and 21 on the agenda
  7       will appear as a panel:  Christopher Doty; and the
  8       Multicultural Council of Windsor & Essex County,
  9       represented by Mike Marica and Kathleen Thomas.
 10  3655                 You have ten minutes to make your
 11       presentation.
 13  3656                 MR. HARRIS:  First  of all, I am not
 14       Mike Marica and I am certainly not Kathy Thomas.
 15  3657                 Good evening, Mr. Chair and
 16       Commissioners.  My name is Wayne Harris.  I am the
 17       special events co-ordinator for the Multicultural
 18       Council.
 19  3658                 I am pleased to be here so speak on
 20       behalf of the board of directors, Mike Marica, and my
 21       executive director Kathy Thomas, who could not be here
 22       this evening.
 23  3659                 First and foremost, I would like to
 24       read our mission statement.  I should know it off by
 25       heart -- and I do -- but I am a little nervous.  This


  1       is the first time I have ever been in front of a panel
  2       like this.
  3  3660                 Our mission statement is to promote
  4       and encourage a harmonious society in Windsor and Essex
  5       County -- that is, multicultural, multiethnic and
  6       multifaith -- to work in a social quality of all
  7       cultures.
  8  3661                 The Multicultural Council has been
  9       very fortunate to have an ongoing partnership and
 10       support of CHWI-TV, which is also known in the Windsor
 11       and Essex County area as The NewWI.
 12  3662                 Over the past four years, CHWI-TV's
 13       management and staff have worked with the MCC to raise
 14       awareness and much needed funding to keep our programs
 15       ongoing to newcomers to Canada.
 16  3663                 I would like to give you a few
 17       examples of this.
 18  3664                 For example, we have a Harmony Ribbon
 19       campaign which the MCC does in conjunction with
 20       International Day of Elimination of Racism and
 21       Discrimination, which falls in the month of March.  As
 22       you all know, March 21st is the International Day of
 23       Elimination of Racism.
 24  3665                 The NewWI helps the MCC get the
 25       message out to the schools, within the schools both the


  1       Catholic and the Board of Education, the public sector,
  2       business and the private sector.
  3  3666                 The MCC throws two different
  4       community events, large fund raising events, and The
  5       NewWI helps us raise funds awareness.  One of them is
  6       called the Carousel of Nations, which goes over two
  7       weekends in June, the third and fourth weekend; and
  8       Expo, the Multicultural Festival which happens the
  9       first weekend of June.
 10  3667                 What we do here is over approximately
 11       30 different multicultural groups get together.  They
 12       showcase their foods, their entertainment and their
 13       cultural diversity within the community of Windsor and
 14       Essex County.
 15  3668                 Also, The NewWI does special days,
 16       which are called cultural days.  These start at the
 17       first of April and run right to the end of June.
 18  3669                 We also get the support of The NewWI
 19       on different programs within the Multicultural Council,
 20       which is our host program which helps newcomers
 21       integrate into the community.  Without The NewWI and
 22       the shows we put on, a lot of Canadian citizens would
 23       not have the opportunity to integrate with new
 24       Canadians that are coming over.  They know nobody.  It
 25       is unfamiliar land.  It is unfamiliar territory to


  1       them.  By integrating Canadian citizens with these
  2       newcomers, it helps the newcomers integrate into
  3       Windsor and Essex County and the Canadian culture.
  4  3670                 Without The NewWI, the MCC and many
  5       other non-profit organizations that I personally sit on
  6       the board of and volunteer for would have a hard time
  7       getting this message out into the Windsor and Essex
  8       County area.
  9  3671                 In closing, I would like to say The
 10       NewWI and the new day shows have proven to be a great
 11       asset to the community at large.
 12  3672                 That's all I have to say tonight.  I
 13       thank you.
 14  3673                 MR. DOTY:  Now for something
 15       completely different.
 16  3674                 My name is Christopher Doty.  I am an
 17       independent documentary producer, specializing in
 18       London, Ontario, history.  If you can find somebody in
 19       the Canadian broadcasting industry that has a more
 20       niche job than that, I would certainly like to meet
 21       them.
 22  3675                 I am here to speak on behalf of the
 23       renewal of the WI sister station, The NewPL's licensing
 24       application.
 25  3676                 I am going to try not to crow about


  1       the station that Commissioner Langford was so concerned
  2       about; and if I do crow about it, I hope you will rap
  3       my knuckles for it.
  4  3677                 I am here to basically talk about the
  5       strengths of The NewPL from the standpoint of bringing
  6       the best of both local and national programming
  7       together.  This was very well illustrated, I believe,
  8       in a project I had the good fortune to be involved
  9       with.
 10  3678                 It was a television documentary on
 11       the Grand Theatre in London, Ontario, which has the
 12       distinction of being the oldest continually performing
 13       playhouse in Canada.  It was going to be celebrating
 14       its 100th anniversary in September, and I thought it
 15       would be a nice idea to do a documentary on this.
 16  3679                 So I went down to the station, got in
 17       to see Don Mumford.  I approached The NewPL for two
 18       reasons.  One, it had very strong connections.  It was
 19       well associated with the Grand.  And secondly, and most
 20       importantly, it had loads and loads of archival film
 21       footage, dating back to the 1950s.
 22  3680                 The NewPL was unique in that unlike a
 23       lot of private stations, it kept all of its archives. 
 24       I knew that if the documentary was to be any good at


  1  3681                 To make a long story short, I got the
  2       film footage. I also got some development money from
  3       Don; and in addition to that, I got a licensing
  4       agreement.
  5  3682                 It was because of this that I was
  6       able to leverage this funding to get funding from other
  7       local companies in the London area and funding from the
  8       Canadian Independent Film and Video Fund.
  9  3683                 At this point the project changed
 10       direction.  It was no longer this kind of small, local
 11       documentary about how wonderful it is that London has
 12       the Grand Theatre; it became more national in scope.
 13  3684                 As I mentioned, because of its age
 14       the Grand encompassed almost every facet of Canadian
 15       history throughout the past century, from vaudeville to
 16       amateur theatre to professional theatre.
 17  3685                 As a result of the larger budgets we
 18       were able to obtain, we were able to do things like go
 19       down to Connecticut and interview the actor Hume
 20       Cronyn, who was born in London and had connections with
 21       the Grand dating back to the 1930s.  We were able to
 22       increase the production values.  We were able to even
 23       hire a make-up artists for the more temperamental
 24       interview subjects.
 25  3686                 We even got a licensing agreement


  1       from Bravo to take it nationally.  This, of course,
  2       changed the whole scope of the project.
  3  3687                 Remember what I said to you about it
  4       being a local documentary.  Strangely enough, it
  5       maintained those characteristics when it was released. 
  6       The people of London responded to it in a way that here
  7       was a documentary of national scope and yet they were
  8       in it.  They were the people who had been the ushers. 
  9       They had sat in the audience.  They had painted the
 10       backdrops.  They had even acted on stage.
 11  3688                 In short, it made the citizens of
 12       London realize what a marvellous theatrical gem they
 13       had in their community and how they were a part of the
 14       story.
 15  3689                 In thinking about all the aggravation
 16       I had to put up with when I made that documentary and
 17       all the extra grey hair I got, that really made up so
 18       much to me, the fact that it had that kind of impact on
 19       people.
 20  3690                 I think that was well expressed by
 21       the people of London when they saw the documentary and
 22       saw the contribution that The NewPL had in it in
 23       turning this local documentary into something of
 24       national importance that at the premier, believe it or


  1       and I am still very bitter about that.
  2       -- Laughter / Rires
  3  3691                 MR. DOTY:  However, I will swallow my
  4       bitterness with the realization that without the
  5       contributions of The NewPL, that documentary would
  6       still be a proposal sitting in my filing cabinet and
  7       that right now I would be at my home in London washing
  8       dishes instead of having the honour of speaking to you.
  9  3692                 Thank you very much.
 10  3693                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 11  3694                 Commissioner Langford?
 12  3695                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have no
 13       questions.  It was perfectly clear, and your written
 14       submission was clear as well.
 15  3696                 I just want you to clarify one thing. 
 16       We encourage crowing here.  We don't particularly like
 17       crows, but we do encourage crowing.
 18  3697                 Our major concern over the lat two
 19       days is to be absolutely sure that in seven years when
 20       you come back you will be able to crow just as loudly.
 21  3698                 Thank you very much.
 22  3699                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 23       much, gentlemen, for your presentations.
 24  3700                 Mr. Secretary.
 25  3701                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


  1  3702                 We will try to go back to the phone
  2       to hear from item 11 on the agenda, the Association for
  3       Media Literacy; and, on their behalf is Ms Carolyn
  4       Wilson.
  5  3703                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Todd didn't go
  6       away bitter, did she?
  7  3704                 MR. LEBEL:  I don't know.  We haven't
  8       communicated with her yet.
  9  3705                 Can you hear me, Ms Wilson?
 10  3706                 MS WILSON:  Yes, I can, just barely. 
 11       Can you hear me?
 12  3707                 MR. LEBEL:  Yes, we can hear you
 13       perfectly.  You have ten minutes to make your
 14       presentation.
 15  3708                 MS WILSON:  Thank you very much.
 17  3709                 MS WILSON:  I an Carolyn Wilson, and
 18       I am the President of the Association for Media
 19       Literacy, which is a voluntary non-profit organization
 20       committed to promoting media literacy education.
 21  3710                 I am also a teacher of media literacy
 22       at St. Michael's Secondary School in Stratford.
 23  3711                 My remarks this evening will focus on
 24       two main areas.  I will begin by defining media
 25       literacy and its place in Ontario schools, and I will


  1       go on to talk about the commitment of CHUM and The
  2       NewPL to literacy, describing several of their
  3       initiatives and how these have benefited educators.
  4  3712                 In Ontario Media Literacy is
  5       concerned with the process of understanding and using
  6       the mass media.  It involves developing literacy skills
  7       for print based media and is also concerned with
  8       helping students develop an informed and critical
  9       understanding of the screen based media that are part
 10       of their lives today.
 11  3713                 By high school graduation, the
 12       average student will have spent $11,000 in the
 13       classroom, 10,500 hours listening to music and 15,000
 14       hours watching television.
 15  3714                 By the time the average Canadian
 16       reaches the age of 65, he or she will have spent 14
 17       waking years watching television.
 18  3715                 Because the media occupy a central
 19       role in our lives today, it is clear that media
 20       literacy is a life skill.
 21  3716                 In Canada media literacy is mandated
 22       in every province, and in Ontario it is part of the
 23       language arts curriculum at the elementary level and
 24       the English curriculum at the secondary level.
 25  3717                 The involvement of CHUM and The NewPL


  1       has been absolutely crucial in the promotion and the
  2       development of media literacy in southwestern Ontario
  3       and indeed across Canada.  CHUM is the only private
  4       sector company that has supported media literacy
  5       initiatives that have been implemented by teachers for
  6       teachers and for students, parents and community
  7       groups.
  8  3718                 This has happened in the London area
  9       and in many other communities across Canada.
 10  3719                 Because media literacy is a
 11       relatively new subject area and there are very few
 12       teacher training opportunities available, implementing
 13       new curriculum in Ontario has been very challenging. 
 14       There is virtually no in-service in media literacy
 15       taking place at faculties of education, and absolutely
 16       none has been offered through the Ministry of
 17       Education.
 18  3720                 Through the support of CHUM
 19       Television and The NewPL, I have been able to organize
 20       annual training sessions for teachers and parents
 21       through both of the London school boards.
 22  3721                 For teachers these workshops offer
 23       what they need in terms of resources and methodology
 24       for implementing new media literacy curriculum.
 25  3722                 As well as underwriting these


  1       training sessions, CHUM Television provides media
  2       literacy programming that is copyright cleared and
  3       commercial free and curriculum guides to support this
  4       programming.  These programs and their guides are
  5       available to educators across the country.
  6  3723                 The feedback we have received has
  7       been overwhelmingly positive with regard to the
  8       presentations themselves and the resources that CHUM
  9       has made available.  Especially positive has been the
 10       feedback given to the programming which addresses
 11       Canada's cultural diversity and important global issues
 12       of our time.
 13  3724                 I want to emphasize that CHUM's
 14       involvement in media literacy has been invaluable and
 15       completely appropriate, because it is done at arm's
 16       length.  They don't send their own people in to conduct
 17       teacher training sessions, but they make it possible
 18       for qualified educators to deliver the programs that
 19       teachers need.
 20  3725                 CHUM Television also does some
 21       professional development for these educators.  Thanks
 22       to CHUM's corporate support, for example, I have been
 23       able to attend a number of important conferences, most
 24       recently in Porto Alegre, Brazil.
 25  3726                 CHUM was also a major sponsor of


  1       Summit 2000 in Toronto, which was the first
  2       international conference of its kind that brought
  3       together media educators and industry professionals
  4       from over 55 countries.
  5  3727                 You have already heard about another
  6       first: the London Public Library project which Darryl
  7       Skidmore described for you earlier.  I am the media
  8       literacy consultant working on the CHUM Television
  9       Media Literacy Centre.
 10  3728                 This centre will provide a tremendous
 11       and unique community service to teachers, parents,
 12       students and citizens in general interested in media
 13       literacy.
 14  3729                 I will end my remarks by saying that
 15       the commitment of CHUM and The NewPL is outstanding,
 16       invaluable and is making a difference in the lives of
 17       thousands of teachers and students today.
 18  3730                 Thank you very much.
 19  3731                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 20  3732                 Commissioner Cardozo.
 21  3733                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
 22       much for your presentation and for waiting patiently by
 23       the phone.
 24  3734                 MS WILSON:  That is no trouble.
 25  3735                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I don't have


  1       any questions.  I just wanted to comment on one thing.
  2  3736                 Your presentation was very clear and
  3       answered some of the questions I had about the
  4       priorities around media literacy.  One of the comments
  5       you made about the arm's length relationship is one
  6       that I note with interest.  Especially when there are
  7       benefits involved the arm's length relationship is an
  8       important one.
  9  3737                 The kind of a support that a
 10       broadcaster provides is always important, and when they
 11       do it at arm's length as opposed to part of their
 12       ongoing work is particularly important.
 13  3738                 I take note of that comment.  Thank
 14       you very much.
 15  3739                 MS WILSON:  Thank you.  I think it is
 16       also really important, and it allows educators who are
 17       involved in the curriculum, who are really the experts
 18       in the field, to control the content of the
 19       presentations and the way they are delivered.
 20  3740                 So I agree that it is very important.
 21  3741                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
 22  3742                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 23       much, Ms Wilson.
 24  3743                 MS WILSON:  Thank you.
 25  3744                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.


  1  3745                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
  2  3746                 The next intervention will be
  3       presented by Dan and Mary Lou Smoke.
  4  3747                 You have ten minutes to make your
  5       presentation.
  7  3748                 MR. SMOKE:  Miigwetch, Pierre.
  8  3749                 My name is Dan Smoke, Asayenes from
  9       the Seneca Nation.  I am here today with my wife, Mary
 10       Lou Smoke.
 11  3750                 MS SMOKE:  In my language, which is
 12       Ojibwa, when we greet people, we say "boozhoo".  So,
 13       boozhoo.
 14       --- Native language spoken / Langue autochtone parlée
 15  3751                 MS SMOKE:   I just shared with you my
 16       First Nations name, which is Shooting Star Woman.  It
 17       comes from a combination of my Ojibwa language and my
 18       husband's Seneca language.
 19  3752                 I also shared that I am of the bear
 20       clan and I come from Batchawana Bay, Ontario, but I
 21       have been living in London with my husband for 25 years
 22       now.  What we are sharing with you are things that we
 23       share in our community of London, Ontario.
 24  3753                 MR. SMOKE:  First off, we would like
 25       to acknowledge that we are in the land of the


  1       Outaouais, which is the Algonquin Territorial name.  We
  2       want to acknowledge our respect, being in their
  3       territory.
  4  3754                 We just want to preface our remarks
  5       with that respect.
  6  3755                 As we were coming here, we were
  7       thinking about what it was that we wanted to say.
  8  3756                 As storytellers, in our tradition we
  9       come from a fine tradition of storytelling.  What we do
 10       is we report the news, the public affairs, the current
 11       events of issues that are of concern to the First
 12       Nations, to the aboriginal population at large.
 13  3757                 When we tell that story, there are
 14       five different types of story-telling, and that is one
 15       of them.
 16  3758                 We are not educated as journalists,
 17       but we have learned over the course of our lives how to
 18       communicate our stories that come from our traditions,
 19       that come from our histories, from our oral histories,
 20       that come from our people and from our communities.
 21  3759                 This is something that we have both
 22       absorbed in our lifetime.
 23  3760                 This is through the tradition of
 24       absorbing the knowledge and the wisdom of our Elders. 
 25       Our Elders are very revered in our culture, in our


  1       life, and we spend a lot of time with them and we
  2       listen to them.  They share with us their wisdom and
  3       their life experience and their knowledge.
  4  3761                 We have used this indigenous
  5       knowledge, these oral histories, in many of our
  6       commentaries that we are doing now at The NewPL.
  7  3762                 We have been doing the commentaries
  8       now for about two and a half years.  Prior to that we
  9       had been an award-winning radio broadcast.  We have a
 10       program called "Smoke Signals" broadcast out of Radio
 11       Western, whom you heard from I believe on Monday.
 12  3763                 At CHRW, our radio station was the
 13       number one rated community campus radio station in
 14       Canada last year.  We like to think that we helped to
 15       contribute towards that.
 16  3764                 We are also print communicators,
 17       storytellers.  We write for about six or seven
 18       different publications on a regular basis.  Our life
 19       today is just immersed in storytelling, and we love it.
 20  3765                 We have a couple of points that we
 21       want to make.
 22  3766                 Most Canadians have little or no
 23       contact with native people and must rely on mainstream
 24       broadcasting for their information.  Many of the
 25       accusations coming from native communities about


  1       misrepresentation in the mainstream news are
  2       attributable to the fact that mainstream journalists
  3       are incapable of experiencing and therefore of
  4       representing native people's sense of reality.  
  5       However well intentioned members of the non-native
  6       media complex may be, they simply do not have the
  7       necessary historical nor cultural awareness to do
  8       justice to native stories.
  9  3767                 Canada will continue to stagger as a
 10       nation so long as the public refuses to acknowledge a
 11       Canadian history which includes native peoples. 
 12       Canadians are frustrated with the lack of information
 13       regarding native issues which affect them, particularly
 14       with the lack of relevant and historical information on
 15       land claims issues.  We constantly get asked, "Why
 16       haven't we heard about this before?  How come no one
 17       told us about this history?"
 18  3768                 We have been very fortunate in that
 19       we have been able to do a lot of historical
 20       commentaries where we have been able to express the
 21       history, the true history, from our perspective of why
 22       First Nations people today experience a lot of the
 23       pathologies that we are experiencing in our communities
 24       and a lot of the inequalities that we also experience.
 25  3769                 We are very keen on expressing an


  1       account of history that we believe comes from the
  2       research that we have endeavoured to do and knowledge
  3       that we have uncovered in our research.  We pass that
  4       on in our tradition.  That is part of our story-telling
  5       tradition.
  6  3770                 The mainstream media, as both the
  7       mirror of society's values and the messenger that
  8       delivers the dispatches it senses the public is keen to
  9       receive, make a judgment based on what they deem
 10       important and worthy of space or airtime.  The editors
 11       and writers working there bring an inherent prejudice
 12       to the workplace, much of it rooted in ignorance.
 13  3771                 It doesn't help that there are few
 14       aboriginal journalists employed in Canadian newsrooms.
 15  3772                 We have been very grateful for the
 16       opportunities that have been presented and have been
 17       made to us by this opportunity to work with The NewPL. 
 18       We have been able to help, we believe, sensitize not
 19       only the newsroom but also to sensitize the public, as
 20       well as raising awareness and public education about
 21       our culture and our way of life.
 22  3773                 That in itself raises a better and
 23       greater understanding in our community.  We are
 24       starting to see that.  We are starting to see many of
 25       our own people starting to access The NewPL.  They have


  1       phoned in stories.
  2  3774                 This was something that didn't happen
  3       five years ago where someone from, say, the Onyota'aka
  4       Oneida Settlement community, which is located just
  5       outside of London, would phone in a story that they
  6       wanted some coverage on.  For the most part the
  7       television station just wouldn't send anyone out there,
  8       for reasons unknown.
  9  3775                 But today they are sending news crews
 10       out to the Reserves, and we are very grateful for that.
 11  3776                 This past September we partnered with
 12       the museum of London, which used to be known as the
 13       London Regional Historical Museum, which the person who
 14       just preceded us was talking about.
 15  3777                 The museum in London was the place
 16       where we had this gathering called the Gathering of the
 17       Good Minds.  It was a gathering where we brought our
 18       artists, our artistic people who express themselves
 19       through film, through story-telling, through song,
 20       dance, drumming.  We also brought in our Elders, the
 21       traditional knowledge carriers, the wisdom keepers.  We
 22       brought them all together, and for three days we had
 23       people from a whole cross-section of London coming in
 24       to be part of these workshops that we had, part of the
 25       circles that we had, to be part of around the sacred


  1       fire, the ceremonies that we conducted.
  2  3778                 People from the museum in London,
  3       when they took count of the attendance figures, it was
  4       the first time that the museum in London had ever had
  5       attendance figures as high as that.  There was only one
  6       higher attendance figure, and that was by Roberta
  7       Bondar, when she had her photo exhibit from up in
  8       space.
  9  3779                 That tells you a little bit about how
 10       many people we attracted to this three-day event.
 11  3780                 It also competed with the homecoming
 12       weekend in London, which is a big weekend, because
 13       London is a university town.
 14  3781                 We believe that The NewPL deserves to
 15       have its licence renewed.  We believe in this very
 16       strongly.  We believe that aboriginal voice heard on
 17       The NewPL is very helpful in raising the understanding
 18       and awareness that is taking place.
 19  3782                 Just to share one more thing, no
 20       matter where we go in the city of London we are
 21       recognized.  It could be in the supermarket.  It could
 22       be in the bank.  It could be wherever.
 23  3783                 One time I was going to the bank
 24       about 2 o'clock in the morning, and I was coming back
 25       home, walking across the street.  I crossed this


  1       intersection and a guy on a motorcycle yelled out at
  2       me, "Hey, you're the guy that's on The NewPL."  I
  3       didn't want to be recognized at that particular moment,
  4       but he recognized me.  I said, "Thank you for watching. 
  5       Miigwetch."
  6  3784                 Mary Lou recounts one when she was
  7       here at the Ottawa airport, and she was recognized when
  8       she came here on one of her trips.
  9  3785                 MS SMOKE:  This lady came up to me
 10       when I was waiting for my baggage and she said, "Your
 11       out of Smokes, aren't you.  I watch you all the time up
 12       by Wingham."
 13  3786                 Then other times I have been in the
 14       grocery stores, and one time I was in a bargain
 15       department store shopping for a cheap item, and I was
 16       on my knees going through the racks and this guy comes
 17       up to me and says, "Aren't you Mrs. Smoke?"  Well, I
 18       quit shopping there.
 19       --- Laughter / Rires
 20  3787                 MR. SMOKE:  We have felt these
 21       heartfelt expressions that come from our own Elders, as
 22       well.  One of our Elders who is a mentor to us said to
 23       us, "It's time for our people to tell our story.  It's
 24       time for us to be heard.  Dan and Mary Lou, I am very
 25       grateful that you are doing that.  I am very grateful


  1       that you are doing what you are doing."
  2  3788                 This comes from our own Elders whom
  3       we have so much respect for, expressing this to us.  It
  4       was a compliment.  I just started crying because it was
  5       so beautiful.  We never expected that.  We just
  6       followed in the tradition that he passed on to us. 
  7       That is all we are doing.  We are just passing on this
  8       fine tradition.
  9  3789                 MR. LEBEL:  Mr. Smoke, your time is
 10       up.
 11  3790                 MR. SMOKE:  We want to sing one song,
 12       if we could.
 13  3791                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary, can
 14       they sing a song?
 15  3792                 MR. LEBEL:  Of course, Mr. Chairman.
 16  3793                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go ahead.
 17  3794                 MS SMOKE:  Miigwetch.  I want to
 18       explain a little bit about this song.
 19  3795                 This is a song that we sing in our
 20       sweatlodges in our sacred ceremonies.  It is a song to
 21       honour the eagle, because in our beliefs the eagle
 22       flies the highest and the eagle carries our prayers up
 23       to the sky world where our ancestors have gone before
 24       us.
 25  3796                 I want to sing this song to honour


  1       all the messengers here.  That is a lot of people in
  2       the room and a lot of people sitting up here, too.
  3       --- Musical interlude / Intermède musical
  4  3797                 MR. SMOKE:  Do you have any
  5       questions?
  6       --- Laughter / Rires
  7  3798                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  But I hope the
  8       applicant has as good a song in reply.
  9  3799                 Thank you very much, both for your
 10       presentation and for the song.
 11  3800                 Mr. Secretary.
 12  3801                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 13  3802                 We will try to go back to Ms Loretta
 14       Todd on the telephone.
 15  3803                 Are you there, Ms Todd?
 16  3804                 Can you hear me?
 17  3805                 MS TODD:  Yes, I can.
 18  3806                 MR. LEBEL:  We can now hear you.
 19  3807                 MS TODD:  I am glad.
 20  3808                 MR. LEBEL:  I apologize for the
 21       technical difficulties.
 22  3809                 You have ten minutes to make your
 23       presentation.
 24  3810                 MS TODD:  Thank you.


  1  3811                 MS TODD:  Thank you, Chairman Dalfen
  2       and the other esteemed Members of the CRTC, for this
  3       opportunity to speak to you today albeit virtually.
  4  3812                 As an independent aboriginal
  5       producer, there are certain expectations I have when
  6       dealing with broadcasters.  I would even call them
  7       values.  They include accessibility, professionalism,
  8       creative vision and intelligence with respect to
  9       programming and audiences.
 10  3813                 CHUM in Toronto and CKVU in Vancouver
 11       encompass all these and more.  They are also fun,
 12       funny, respectful and risk-taking, yet unabashed about
 13       the entertainment part of television.  Somehow they
 14       have figured out that TV can be intelligent even as it
 15       enthrals.
 16  3814                 The intelligence comes in many forms. 
 17       CHUM understands the value of critical thinking in
 18       programming and of instilling the right to question who
 19       and what our society is about.  They embrace diversity. 
 20       They understand popular culture.  They aren't afraid of
 21       the edges, yet they do this within the framework of
 22       market forces and market economies.
 23  3815                 In a climate of increasing
 24       conformity, CHUM accepts the challenge of supporting
 25       all spectrum of voices, experience, ways of expression


  1       and ways of looking at the world.
  2  3816                 In my time of dealing with CHUM, I
  3       have only been encouraged.  And yes, the ever "E" word,
  4       the one that was overused in the nineties but is still
  5       relevant, and that is "empowered".
  6  3817                 For me, this creates an atmosphere in
  7       which as a producer and filmmaker I can only expand the
  8       scope of my expression and expand the audience where my
  9       work is viewed.
 10  3818                 As I indicated in my letter to the
 11       CRTC, CHUM and CKVU have already made a difference in
 12       Vancouver, welcoming different voices through
 13       consultation, the start-up of their "Vancouver's Other
 14       Stories", which is a short story initiative from
 15       coloured and aboriginal people.
 16  3819                 They have already brought a fresh and
 17       fair and balanced perspective on the news.  In fact, I
 18       am watching local news again.
 19  3820                 People I know who would otherwise not
 20       approach a broadcaster are now excited about being able
 21       to approach CKVU.
 22  3821                 Although there is not an aboriginal
 23       producers group per se across Canada, there are
 24       different ones and there is an initiative at the moment
 25       to bring together aboriginal producers.


  1  3822                 In the past I have been part of the
  2       Aboriginal Film Video Arts Alliance which resulted in
  3       the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre and
  4       have been involved in various training programs through
  5       various institutions in Vancouver, from Simon Fraser
  6       University to Capilano College.  I am presently part of
  7       a training program that is part of APTN.  It is at
  8       Capilano College.
  9  3823                 I do feel I have some background with
 10       respect to capacity building.  Although I don't have
 11       all the facts with respect to CHUM's look to have more
 12       flexibility with respect to its funding, if you like,
 13       its perception as a producer, I do know that any kind
 14       of flexibility that CHUM can have to help build
 15       capacity within the aboriginal people and coloured
 16       community is very important.
 17  3824                 Although I know that independent
 18       filmmakers have a stake in wanting to maintain an
 19       equity, if you like, in their work -- and I feel that
 20       is very critical to being an independent producer -- at
 21       the same time, I also know that many of the independent
 22       producers in the mainstream and established producers
 23       right now have a symbiotic relationship with many
 24       broadcasters in Canada and have been able to build an
 25       infrastructure as a consequence.


  1  3825                 We haven't really been able to build
  2       that infrastructure as aboriginal producers in the same
  3       way.  I have talked to CHUM, and I have encouraged them
  4       to try to help build that infrastructure through
  5       coproduction and other kinds of partnerships with the
  6       aboriginal and, I guess by extension, also the people
  7       of the coloured community in Canada, and in this case
  8       Vancouver.
  9  3826                 That is essentially my presentation. 
 10       I would welcome any questions.
 11  3827                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 12  3828                 Commissioner Grauer.
 13  3829                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Ms Todd, it is
 14       Cindy Grauer.  Thank you very much.  I don't have any
 15       questions for you, but I appreciate your taking part in
 16       this.  I know it is difficult by the phone, because I
 17       do meetings all the time with these people in Ottawa by
 18       phone.
 19  3830                 Thank you very much.
 20  3831                 MS TODD:  Thank you.
 21  3832                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 22  3833                 Mr. Secretary, the next intervenor,
 23       please.
 24  3834                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  3835                 The next intervention will be


  1       presented by Mr. Derek Diorio from Distinct Features
  2       Inc.
  4  3836                 MR. DIORIO:  Now we know how the Sens
  5       and the Leafs felt as we go into the fifth overtime
  6       period.
  7  3837                 My name is Derek Diorio.  I am the
  8       President of Distinct Features.  I am a producer and a
  9       filmmaker.
 10  3838                 Distinct Features is an Ottawa-based
 11       independent production company that specializes in the
 12       making of privately-financed feature films -- films
 13       which are unapologetically set and made in Ottawa.  We
 14       don't dress our films up to look like they are made in
 15       the States or try to fool anyone into believing that
 16       the setting is anywhere other than Ottawa.
 17  3839                 Prevailing wisdom would have it that
 18       this approach is suicidal, certainly for international
 19       sales.  In reality, the exact opposite has transpired. 
 20       Our second feature film "House of Luk", a story set in
 21       a Chinese restaurant in Ottawa, is distributed by a
 22       German company, Peppermint Distribution, and has been
 23       sold in China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, Portugal,
 24       New Zealand and South America, with further sales
 25       pending.


  1  3840                 "House of Luk" is a local story that
  2       has a universal theme.
  3  3841                 The principals of Distinct Features
  4       come from a live performance and television background. 
  5       However, we had to abandon the idea of doing local
  6       television, because it didn't appear that the
  7       broadcasters in this community were interested in
  8       making series programs.  Neither CBOT nor CJOH are
  9       created any series programming with local, independent
 10       producers.
 11  3842                 My understanding is they have a
 12       mandate to do so, but I don't see the programs that
 13       reflect the local community on their airwaves.
 14  3843                 With local broadcasters' emphasis on
 15       news and newsroom-driven programming, we, as in the
 16       people and producers of Ottawa and The National Capital
 17       Region, don't really get to tell our own stories,
 18       certainly not in the realm of drama, fiction or comedy.
 19  3844                 As I said earlier, we had abandoned
 20       the idea of television.  Then one day in July of last
 21       year that changed.
 22  3845                 The traditional approach is for the
 23       producer to pitch the broadcaster on a project.  I know
 24       this from personal experience.  You do a lot of that.
 25  3846                 In our case, CHUM called us.  They


  1       knew that we had a history and a background in comedy. 
  2       They asked us what kind of show we would like to do and
  3       let us do it.
  4  3847                 Hence, "Ottawa, Technically Funny"
  5       was born -- a fast-paced sketch comedy series whose
  6       subject matter was the Ottawa Valley, and the other
  7       side of the river if we chose to do so.  We produced
  8       six episodes of this program, and I would have to say
  9       that CHUM and CHRO hardly laid a finger on the project
 10       at all.
 11  3848                 We were given creative and production
 12       freedom, asked to respect their broadcast code of
 13       ethics -- of course, I got that after we had done the
 14       show.
 15       --- Laughter / Rires
 16  3849                 MR. DIORIO:  But away we went.
 17  3850                 CHUM and CHRO have supported "Ottawa,
 18       Technically Funny", promoted it and have gone out of
 19       their way to let us know how much they liked the show. 
 20       To wit, they have asked us to do six more episodes in
 21       the coming year.
 22  3851                 Aside from the favourable reviews and
 23       positive audience response that the show has garnered,
 24       the one comment that has come up time and time again
 25       about "Ottawa, Technically Funny" has been:  How is it


  1       possible that in this day and age you can produce a
  2       program of such intensely local fare?
  3  3852                 The implication, I am afraid, is that
  4       the concept of local programming in drama and comedy is
  5       truly dead.
  6  3853                 The climate today requires that shows
  7       be manufactured for broad national and international
  8       audiences and that local flavour be removed entirely in
  9       favour of a more homogenized product.  Therefore, where
 10       you come from fundamentally doesn't matter.
 11  3854                 It matters to me.  I live here.  I
 12       have no interest in going to live anywhere else.  I
 13       want to work where I live, make quality programs about
 14       who I am and what I am.
 15  3855                 CHUM and CHRO are the only
 16       broadcasters in this market willing to support that.
 17  3856                 One small aside about "Ottawa,
 18       Technically Funny", a local program, a program that has
 19       been rejected by the Canadian Comedy Network for being
 20       too regional and not reflecting that station's
 21       sensibility -- whatever that is.
 22  3857                 We just returned from MIP, the
 23       television market in Cannes where we were selling three
 24       of our latest films.  "Ottawa, Technically Funny" was
 25       on our company CV and was spotted by Comédie, a French


  1       broadcaster that has a presence in all French
  2       territories worldwide.  They requested the show and
  3       even after being informed of the content, they were
  4       relentless about us sending the entire series to
  5       screen.
  6  3858                 They are presently seriously
  7       considering the purchase of the series -- not bad for a
  8       show that is considered too local in its country of
  9       origin.
 10  3859                 Aside from "Technically Funny", CHRO
 11       has broadcast our first film "Two's a Mob", and CHUM
 12       has made an offer on "House of Luk" and are currently
 13       looking at two of our latest films, "Punch and Judy"
 14       and "A Taste of Jupiter".
 15  3860                 As well, they have offered
 16       development monies for everything from feature films to
 17       documentaries and Sci-Fi series.  It is only through
 18       this kind of support that we can continue to live and
 19       work in this community.
 20  3861                 I am not here to crow.  I am here to
 21       support CHUM and CHRO because, unlike CBOT or CJOH,
 22       they support local comedy and drama productions.
 23  3862                 Thank you.
 24  3863                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  3864                 Commissioner Cardozo.


  1  3865                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
  2       Mr. Diorio, for coming and staying all day.  I have
  3       watched you here.
  4  3866                 I have actually watched you for some
  5       years, back when you were a comedian.  I was a fan of
  6       yours, and I am a fan now as you are a producer.
  7  3867                 I am going to ask you one question
  8       about "Ottawa, Technically Funny".  There is a segment
  9       "Sex with Serge".  Are you actually Serge?
 10  3868                 MR. DIORIO:  No.
 11  3869                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  My next
 12       question was going to be:  Do you really know that much
 13       about sex?
 14  3870                 MR. DIORIO:  No.
 15       --- Laughter / Rires
 16  3871                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  He might be "Ed the
 17       Sock", though.
 18  3872                 MR. DIORIO:  Actually, we have had
 19       that idea -- we used to be in a comedy group called
 20       Skit Row.  One of the things about living in Ottawa --
 21       and this is a small aside.  There are two cultures
 22       here.  We have the French side and we have the English
 23       side.  I am half French Canadian.  Dan Lalande, who was
 24       a member of Skit Row, is in the same boat.  We found
 25       that we used to do humour about being French Canadian


  1       and English and everything in this community, and it
  2       would go over huge.  We had a huge French Canadian
  3       audience in this community.
  4  3873                 We would go and do the same thing in
  5       Toronto and people would be mortified.  It was
  6       unbelievable.
  7  3874                 So it has been nice to do this kind
  8       of show and put it on the air and be supported by the
  9       broadcasters.
 10  3875                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Tell me in
 11       general terms what a show like "Ottawa, Technically
 12       Funny" does for Ottawa as a community that all the
 13       news, the public affairs, the soft news, and all of
 14       that does not do.
 15  3876                 MR. DIORIO:  My own personal belief
 16       is that we have too much damned news on the air.  Why
 17       do all the channels have to have news?  Can't they take
 18       some of that money and put it into entertainment?
 19  3877                 I think what it does is it gives us a
 20       different spin, although ironically we are parodying
 21       news because it is the easiest form to do.  CHRO is
 22       being kind enough to let us parody them.
 23  3878                 It helps us do stuff that you can't
 24       do anywhere else.  We get a chance to make fun of the
 25       things that matter to us in the community.


  1  3879                 I learned this a long time ago.  We
  2       are from Ottawa, and everyone expected us to do a
  3       comedy based on the Hill.  Well, it turns out that only
  4       about 3,000 people work on the Hill in this city. 
  5       Everybody else has to contend with OC Transpo, Blue
  6       Line, regional government, all those kinds of things. 
  7       So those are more important.  People want to see those
  8       things on the air, and they like to see them made fun
  9       of -- at least I think so anyway.
 10  3880                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you for
 11       being here.
 12  3881                 MR. DIORIO:  Thank you.
 13  3882                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 14  3883                 Mr. Secretary.
 15  3884                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr. Chairman,
 16       we shouldn't have kept this guy waiting, because he has
 17       too much material now.  We could be in trouble.
 18  3885                 MR. LEBEL:  Mr. Chairman, we don't
 19       have anybody on the phone yet.  The last appearing
 20       intervenors will appear as a panel.
 21  3886                 It is Aruna Koushik from the Windsor
 22       Regional Hospital and Mariella Vigneux from the Grey
 23       Bruce Health Unit.
 25  3887                 MS KOUSHIK:  Good night, Mr. Chairman


  1       and Members of the Commission, as well as all those
  2       patiently waiting here.
  3  3888                 When I thought about coming here, I
  4       was wondering whether I should change my opening
  5       statement that I usually do and decided against it.  My
  6       opening statement usually is:  In the course of my
  7       presentation, if I say anything that may offend all of
  8       you, I apologize up-front.  The reason I say that is
  9       that I usually say things that offend people.
 10  3889                 Having said that, now I am covered. 
 11       And it is too late in the night to hold me responsible
 12       for my statements.
 13  3890                 Having said that, I come from a place
 14       which is absolutely beautiful.  It is the city of
 15       roses.  It is called Windsor.  It is life outside
 16       Toronto.
 17  3891                 Invariably it happens with me that
 18       previous speakers usually steal my lines or my words. 
 19       Mayor Janice Laking said we need an identity of our
 20       own.  Windsorites and people in the tri-county area
 21       there desperately look for their own identity and fight
 22       to maintain their identity as Canadians.
 23  3892                 We are very close to the big city of
 24       Detroit, and quite often when you enter Windsor you
 25       think the skyline is Windsor's.  No, it isn't.  It is


  1       Detroit across the border.
  2  3893                 So we fight for Canadian content in
  3       our local stories in our day-to-day viewing of
  4       television.
  5  3894                 Quite a few years ago CBC stopped
  6       their local programming, so we were sort of left high
  7       and dry to the local newspaper, which really didn't
  8       meet our needs.  I don't think it meets our needs even
  9       now, because all we hear are gory stories.
 10  3895                 When The NewWI started in Windsor, we
 11       were ecstatic.  They have been absolutely fabulous with
 12       the tri-county area and the stories that they cover.
 13  3896                 For those who don't know, Windsor is
 14       the third most diverse community in Ontario.  I am the
 15       mediator -- now you know why I am always in trouble --
 16       for the Windsor Regional Hospital.  It is one of the
 17       two major hospitals that amalgamated.
 18  3897                 The stories that the hospitals have
 19       have a rippling effect all over the tri-county area. 
 20       Quite often the hospitals are in partnerships with
 21       those hospitals across the border, especially with
 22       9-1-1.  All our hospitals were under high alert just in
 23       case we were needed across the border.
 24  3898                 Having said that, our partnership
 25       with NewWI and the way they cover our stories has been


  1       absolutely amazing.  I don't thing the word "no" is in
  2       their vocabulary.  I am not sure.  I should ask Don
  3       Mumford -- he is sitting there looking at me -- whether
  4       they ever say "no".
  5  3899                 I don't expect they are going to say
  6       no to any of our requests in the future.  They won't
  7       because they have to deal with me at some point.
  8  3900                 They cover all the stories to the
  9       best of their ability, very well.
 10  3901                 Windsor as a community is very close
 11       knit.  If you are working at the hospital, you also
 12       meet the same people at the Chamber of Commerce.  You
 13       also meet the same people at the Rotary, as well as
 14       when you are going to the washroom in the local
 15       theatres.  You meet the same people three or four times
 16       a day.
 17  3902                 When we meet our newscasters, it
 18       feels good because we have developed a relationship
 19       with them, and they have made us a priority in the
 20       community.
 21  3903                 One of the earliest best stories I
 22       think that they covered really well was when the Jacob
 23       Creutzfeldt disaster struck the Windsor area.  A local
 24       doctor, a neurosurgeon, had operated and part of the
 25       cells in the brain they discovered with this disease. 


  1       NewWI was on the spot covering from the revelation of
  2       the issue to telling the viewers what to look for, not
  3       to be afraid of hospital procedures; to deal with the
  4       problem to the final diagnosis.  It was a total
  5       package.
  6  3904                 There was panic in the community. 
  7       Along with the Windsor District Health Council, they
  8       were able to cover all the aspects of that particular
  9       disease situation, as well as do other community things
 10       that they were involved in.
 11  3905                 Without this coverage we would be
 12       really lost, because we would not be able to reach the
 13       thousands of people in the community, whether it be in
 14       Windsor, Sarnia, Chatham or any of those local areas.
 15  3906                 Our area is very important because we
 16       also are a very large industrial area.  We are the
 17       automotive capital of the world.  We are the tool and
 18       dye making capital of the world and the stories that
 19       those generate.
 20  3907                 In the future, pretty close by, we
 21       have coming the medical school that is going to be
 22       established in Windsor.  We have the Pan-American Games
 23       for those of you who know have been slated for Windsor
 24       with the partnership of the University of Windsor.
 25  3908                 So there are a lot of new stories


  1       that are being generated.  That is very near and dear
  2       to Windsorites.
  3  3909                 I sincerely hope that their request
  4       for the renewal of the licence will be granted.
  5  3910                 I also understand, sitting here all
  6       day, there was the whole debate about flexibility.  For
  7       me, I am not surprised that if they said they would do
  8       more for us with a reduced number of hours.  I don't
  9       suspect that they are going to change the local
 10       programming, for the simple reason that flexibility can
 11       mean a restructuring of the services and the way they
 12       provide and not necessarily cuts.
 13  3911                 In my past life I used to work for
 14       the government, and I realized very quickly that
 15       flexibility didn't necessarily mean cuts; it just meant
 16       you got rid of the old computer and had new systems
 17       installed.
 18  3912                 So I am not concerned about that.  I
 19       know that they will keep up their commitment to the
 20       community in Windsor.
 21  3913                 Thank you.
 22  3914                 MS VIGNEUX:  Hello.  I am Mariella
 23       Vigneux.  I am with the Grey Bruce Health Unit.  You
 24       may know that health unit better because of the
 25       coverage in Walkerton.  We were the health unit


  1       responsible for managing the outbreak.  Dr. Murray
  2       McQuigge was our Medical Officer of Health and has
  3       since retired.
  4  3915                 Our public health inspectors and
  5       public health nurses were deeply involved and are still
  6       involved in that outbreak and the repercussions.
  7  3916                 As a public health unit, we are one
  8       of 37 in Ontario.  Our mission statement is to prevent
  9       disease, promote healthy lifestyles and protect the
 10       community from hazards.  Whereas Aruna is involved with
 11       people who enter the hospital for care, we are in the
 12       business to prevent people from entering the hospital
 13       and to keep the community healthy.
 14  3917                 For that, we get less than 2 per cent
 15       of the health system budget.  I am talking to the wrong
 16       people, I know.
 17  3918                 I think you should understand the
 18       area that our health unit covers.  It is Grey and Bruce
 19       County.  That means an area larger than Prince Edward
 20       Island, with a population as low as about 153,000
 21       people.
 22  3919                 Fifty-four per cent of those people
 23       are rural.  A large degree of isolation can occur in
 24       that type of a community, particularly with the
 25       Mennonite community.  There are several Mennonite


  1       communities.
  2  3920                 We have an above average number of
  3       elderly people, and we have a below average literacy
  4       rate.
  5  3921                 I drove eight hours to get here for
  6       five minutes of your time, because our health unit on
  7       its small budget thought it was important enough that
  8       you hear that for us having a station like The NewNX is
  9       not just a "nice to have"; it is actually essential for
 10       us to get our messages out.
 11  3922                 I would like to use Walkerton as an
 12       example.
 13  3923                 As you know, the number of ill
 14       increased to a total of 2300 people.  The number of
 15       people who died was seven.  And that was all due to an
 16       unexpected E. coli outbreak in a municipal water
 17       system.
 18  3924                 We know at the health unit, and we
 19       feel strongly that we managed to contain the spread of
 20       secondary infection and the number of HUS cases -- that
 21       is the killer of E. coli in renal failure.  We managed
 22       to contain that outbreak and the spread of the
 23       infection because of the good coverage that we received
 24       -- not simply The NewNX, although The NewNX was the
 25       only television station to appear at the first media


  1       conference.  For that we were grateful.  And that does
  2       save lives.
  3  3925                 Getting our messages out is not just
  4       an airy fairy thing.  It means the reduction of
  5       illness, the reduction of injuries and the number of
  6       deaths.  There is proof of that in the pudding with
  7       Walkerton.  When we started to see the hundreds and
  8       hundreds of people ill, we projected the rate of
  9       secondary infection, and we anticipated, based on the
 10       history of E. coli, that there would be 12 per cent
 11       spread of infection from one person to the other.  We
 12       managed to contain that to 3 per cent.
 13  3926                 I don't think anyone has ever really
 14       told that story.
 15  3927                 We restricted the number of HUS
 16       cases.  It could have ranged from 2 per cent to as high
 17       as 15 per cent.  We kept it to 2 per cent.  We feel
 18       that is because of the coverage we received because our
 19       messages went out.  We told the families that their
 20       children had to be tested every two days, blood tests
 21       if the kids were under five.  We told them not to use
 22       anti-diarrheals, no antibiotics, to boil their water
 23       for five minutes, to use chlorine water solutions to
 24       wash with.
 25  3928                 It was the great coverage that got


  1       those messages out that was partially why we managed to
  2       contain the secondary spread of infection.
  3  3929                 Walkerton doesn't happen every day,
  4       but there are many emergency situations where we need
  5       immediate local coverage.
  6  3930                 The one I am really fussing with
  7       these days is -- and you probably have not heard a
  8       whole lot about it.  The World Health Organization and
  9       Health Canada have all the health units now working to
 10       prevent -- we can't prevent it, but working to be
 11       prepared for pandemic influenza.
 12  3931                 Pandemic means a majority of the
 13       world population will be infected with a new, unknown
 14       virus.  We will not have antivirals and vaccines ready
 15       for months after people contract this.  So two-thirds
 16       of the world population will be struck; one-third will
 17       be critically ill.
 18  3932                 We are planning for that now, and
 19       thank goodness we have a member, a reporter of The
 20       NewNX on our communications subcommittee, which I am
 21       chairing.
 22  3933                 We have bioterrorism since September
 23       11th.  We have had four cases of scares in our area
 24       alone.
 25  3934                 The big one that really worries our


  1       public health inspectors are the meningitis outbreaks. 
  2       We have had The NewNX work with us on that in the past.
  3  3935                 We have the Bruce Nuclear Power
  4       Station in our area.
  5  3936                 We have stacks of food alerts and
  6       food recalls that come in daily to our health unit.  At
  7       any moment one of those could become a large food
  8       recall.
  9  3937                 So whether it be an international
 10       story or a local, we need to have the local guys there
 11       fast to get on to the repercussions, the things that
 12       happen as a spin-off of whatever the emergency is.
 13  3938                 It is not just the emergencies.  We
 14       have a lot of ho-hum information that we get out to the
 15       public that you would normally dismiss, but they are
 16       actually preventing illnesses and deaths.
 17  3939                 If you think about some of the work
 18       that we do, West Nile virus, AIDS, racoon rabies,
 19       immunization.  We have eradicated all those diseases,
 20       but we have to keep telling people immunization works.
 21  3940                 MR. LEBEL:  Ms Vigneux, I'm sorry,
 22       your time is up.
 23  3941                 MS VIGNEUX:  Thank you.  I just
 24       wanted to wrap up by saying we need strong,
 25       independent, profitable television stations --


  1       profitable so they can afford to tell our story -- and
  2       locally, geographically dispersed radio stations like
  3       The NewNX.
  4  3942                 Thank you.
  5  3943                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
  6  3944                 Commissioner Wylie.
  7  3945                 COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I just wanted to
  8       warn Ms Koushik that she may indeed get into trouble to
  9       have told my colleagues and I that the CHUM people are
 10       people who can't say no.
 11  3946                 MS KOUSHIK:  Madam Commissioner, you
 12       may then have to deal with me.
 13       --- Laughter / Rires
 14  3947                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You may have
 15       met your match.
 16  3948                 MS KOUSHIK:  Possibly.  I was a past
 17       Human Rights officer.
 18  3949                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  I have a
 19       question for the Health Unit.
 20  3950                 What you are saying I think is
 21       extremely important, and I would like your view
 22       globally.  I appreciate your comments with respect to
 23       your experiences in Grey Bruce.
 24  3951                 Have you had discussions with
 25       colleagues outside other urban areas across the country


  1       about what is happening with respect to television
  2       service in smaller communities, radio service, and the
  3       ability or challenges in getting the message out about
  4       some of the issues you raised.
  5  3952                 Do you know?
  6  3953                 MS VIGNEUX:  I am actually meeting
  7       with four communications representatives from health
  8       units around the Georgian Bay area next week, I think
  9       it is.  They generally have local television they can
 10       use.
 11  3954                 The problem with health units is
 12       because our budget is so low, we can't afford to make
 13       PSAs.  We can't get prime time.  We have to rely on the
 14       reporters showing up, and in our area they have been
 15       great.
 16  3955                 Is that what you are getting at?
 17  3956                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Kind of.  I am
 18       from British Columbia, and I know that throughout the
 19       interior in northern British Columbia and other more
 20       remote parts of the country this is increasingly
 21       becoming an issue, the service to these communities.
 22  3957                 I had not really thought about it in
 23       quite the context that you raised this morning.  It has
 24       really flagged something for me that I think is really
 25       important.


  1  3958                 MS VIGNEUX:  I know we had one
  2       television station that recently pulled the only
  3       reporter for our area.  He is now a freelance
  4       videographer.  That was difficult for us to lose that.
  5  3959                 I think we have to have these
  6       stations profitable so that they can afford to do what
  7       they are doing in these remote areas.  A population of
  8       153,000 may not seem important, but because they are so
  9       isolated they need to have television.
 10  3960                 And low literate groups or elderly,
 11       people who are visual learners, need to have
 12       television.  So it benefits all of us here to make sure
 13       that the issues of public health are covered.
 14  3961                 I think I am deviating from your
 15       point.
 16  3962                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Yes, you are
 17       absolutely right.  I appreciate very much your being
 18       here.  It just flagged something for me.
 19  3963                 Thank you very much.
 20  3964                 MS VIGNEUX:  You are welcome.
 21  3965                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 22       much, ladies.
 23  3966                 Mr. Secretary.
 24  3967                 MR. LEBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
 25  3968                 The next appearing intervenor will be


  1       via telephone.  We will hear Mrs. Popint AuYeung.
  2  3969                 MS AUYEUNG:  I don't want any
  3       disruption.  Okay?
  4  3970                 MR. LEBEL:  Fine.  Mrs. AuYeung, I
  5       believe you were speaking to your children in the car
  6       with you?
  7  3971                 MRS. AUYEUNG:   Yes.
  8       --- Laughter / Rires
  9  3972                 MR. LEBEL:  You have ten minutes to
 10       make your presentation.  Go ahead.
 12  3973                 MRS. AUYEUNG:  Hello?  Can you hear
 13       me?
 14  3974                 MR. LEBEL:  Yes, I can.  Can you hear
 15       me?
 16  3975                 MRS. AUYEUNG:  Barely.
 17  3976                 MR. LEBEL:  We hear you clearly, so
 18       go ahead.  You have ten minutes to make your
 19       presentation.
 20  3977                 MRS. AUYEUNG:  All right.
 21  3978                 Good evening, Mr. Chairman and
 22       Members of the Commission.  I am speaking in support of
 23       CHUM's broadcast licence renewal application.  My name
 24       is Popint AuYeung.  I am a producer and a director in
 25       Vancouver who has been working in the film and TV


  1       industry for over 20 years.
  2  3979                 Also, I am on the Steering Committee
  3       for the Academy of Canadian Cinema and Television in
  4       B.C. and was the Vice-President of the Asian-Canadian
  5       Writers Workshop, which is an organization that fosters
  6       and supports Asian-Canadian writers.
  7  3980                 As a long-time member of the film and
  8       TV community in British Columbia, I am aware of the
  9       areas of under representation in the industry and have
 10       always tried to do my part to make sure that all
 11       communities are fairly served.
 12  3981                 It is estimated that 30 per cent of
 13       B.C.'s population is of a visible ethnic group, and 50
 14       per cent of the students in Vancouver claim a language
 15       other than English as their first language.
 16  3982                 Despite this multicultural reality,
 17       our local programming does not reflect this landscape. 
 18       Most broadcasters have not made culturally diverse,
 19       non-news programming a priority.  There is no
 20       proportional representation on TV.
 21  3983                 Is there a lack of writers, actors,
 22       filmmakers in this community, then?  Absolutely not.
 23  3984                 Let me use the Asian community as an
 24       example.
 25  3985                 I compiled the Asia-Canada Creative


  1       Directory for Telefilm Canada three years ago.  It
  2       lists most of the Asian-Canadian film and TV
  3       professionals in this country.  Many of them are well
  4       established and dedicated writers and filmmakers
  5       struggling to find a place in our industry.  They came
  6       to British Columbia with extensive credits and
  7       experience but unfortunately are denied the opportunity
  8       to do what they are trained to do best because of lack
  9       of support.
 10  3986                 There is a huge untapped
 11       Asian-Canadian talent pool in this province.  They have
 12       been waiting for a long time for a place like CKVU to
 13       share their visions and stories.
 14  3987                 Since CHUM has made its presence in
 15       B.C., local ethnic filmmakers like myself feel like our
 16       prayers are beginning to be answered.
 17  3988                 CHUM has been making dramatic efforts
 18       to change the look of mainstream programming in Ontario
 19       for some time now and has finally brought it visionary
 20       objectives here.
 21  3989                 For example, CKVU has launched
 22       "Vancouver's Other Stories", a writing, producing,
 23       directing initiative created exclusively for visible
 24       minorities.  This is an opportunity we have been
 25       waiting for, and I believe it is the first of its kind


  1       in B.C.
  2  3990                 Its purpose is to discover strong
  3       quality dramatic narratives by local ethnic filmmakers
  4       that CKVU can produce and broadcast.  Their work will
  5       have a guaranteed broadcast on CKVU and other CHUM
  6       stations across the country.  The exposure is
  7       invaluable to the filmmakers.
  8  3991                 In addition, CKVU, in partnership
  9       with Praxis Centre for screenwriters, has developed the
 10       CHUM Television Cultural Diversity Fellowship, a
 11       writing initiative which will nurture new and emerging
 12       screenwriters.  Those who are selected will be offered
 13       the opportunity to workshop the script with experienced
 14       writers and other industry professionals.
 15  3992                 CKVU understands that a good script
 16       is the foundation for a good program.  We in the
 17       industry agree that, in general, there is a lack of
 18       good screenwriters.  I am excited about a story that
 19       will come out of this initiative.
 20  3993                 This commitment sets CKVU apart from
 21       other broadcasters in B.C.  It understands the
 22       importance to provide ethnic Canadian filmmakers the
 23       chance to not only share the stories to the related
 24       communities but to the rest of B.C. and Canada, as
 25       well.


  1  3994                 The end result of this initiative can
  2       shed the light on the filmmakers' cultures to a wider
  3       audience, therefore fostering harmony and understanding
  4       of Canada's multicultural landscape.
  5  3995                 In addition, CKVU is helping the
  6       filmmakers acquire their film credits and build a
  7       portfolio so that they can advance their careers.
  8  3996                 CKVU's new initiatives will also help
  9       ethnic Canadian teenagers to have role models who
 10       reflect their identity.  They will see images that they
 11       can relate to and hear stories that speak to them.  So
 12       often the regular mainstream programs leave them
 13       feeling excluded and insignificant.  Or when an Asian
 14       story is brought to screen, it is often presented from
 15       a white point of view.  The teens are left feeling
 16       either empty or misrepresented.
 17  3997                 Stories told to them by members from
 18       their own communities is a healthy and powerful way for
 19       these teens to regain and celebrate their identities.
 20  3998                 I want to commend CKVU for
 21       acknowledging that it is does not know all the needs of
 22       the ethnic communities in B.C., but it has taken steps
 23       to ensure that we are heard and that, together, we can
 24       grow.
 25  3999                 I attended a community meeting


  1       conducted by CKVU which was well attended and
  2       represented.  The panel listened to our every concern
  3       with sincerity.  I am encouraged to learn that CKVU
  4       intends to hold this meeting on a regular basis,
  5       because it gives the station a chance to hear if it is
  6       meeting the commitments they have made to CRTC and to
  7       the communities.
  8  4000                 These meetings will give us a chance
  9       to hold CKVU accountable.  This measure taken by CKVU
 10       truly shows its commitment to becoming a platform for
 11       the diverse voices in B.C.
 12  4001                 My experiences with CHUM have been
 13       very encouraging, productive and extremely supportive.
 14  4002                 Last July I approached The NewVI, a
 15       CHUM station in Victoria, for assistance in developing
 16       a documentary about a non-profit youth organization in
 17       Vancouver, and received an offer of assistance in a
 18       matter of days.
 19  4003                 A few months ago I approached CHUM
 20       for development assistance of a feature film based on
 21       the Canadian best seller "The Concubine's Children" by
 22       Denise Chong.  CKVU expressed interest immediately. 
 23       But they didn't just offer me an agreement and walk
 24       away.  They spent time in giving me many creative and
 25       valuable suggestions.


  1  4004                 I believe that CKVU is committed to
  2       my project because it sees the importance in this
  3       compelling true story about the early struggles of
  4       Chinese Canadians.
  5  4005                 I strongly believe that CHUM has met
  6       the television needs of diverse communities in British
  7       Columbia and will continue to further the commitment
  8       and break new ground with the broadcast licence
  9       renewal.
 10  4006                 Thank you.
 11  4007                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 12       Grauer.
 13  4008                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Hello, Ms
 14       AuYeung.  It is Cindy Grauer speaking.  I just want to
 15       thank you very much for participating.  I know how
 16       difficult it is to do this over the phone.
 17  4009                 I am so thrilled that finally you are
 18       able to make the "The Concubine's Children".
 19  4010                 MS AUYEUNG:  I am very grateful to
 20       CHUM.
 21  4011                 COMMISSIONER GRAUER:  Thanks for
 22       participating.
 23  4012                 MS AUYEUNG:  Thank you.
 24  4013                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 25  4014                 We will adjourn now and resume with


  1       final reply at 9:30 tomorrow morning.
  2       --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2205 to
  3           resume on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 at 0900 /
  4           L'audience est ajournée à 2205, pour reprendre
  5           le mercredi 8 mai 2002 à 0900

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