ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Hull, QC - 2001/06/21

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU

CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

SUBJECT / SUJET:

MULTIPLE BROADCASTING AND OWNERSHIP APPLICATIONS /

DEMANDES DE RADIODIFFUSION ET DE PROPRIÉTÉS MULTIPLES

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, Promenade du

Portage

Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 21, 2001 Le 21 juin 2001

Volume 3

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publiqe.

Canadian Radio-television and

Telecommunications Commission

Conseil de la radiodiffusion et

des télécommunications canadiennes

Transcript / Transcription

Multiple broadcasting and ownership applications /

Demandes de radiodiffusion et de propriétés multiples

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Martha Wilson Chairperson / Présidente

Andrée Wylie Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère

Ron Williams Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Peter McCallum Legal Counsels /

Leanne Bennett Conseillers juridiques

Michael Burnside Hearing Manager and Secretary

/ Gérant de l'audience et

secrétaire

Lynne Poirier Hearing Secretary /

Secrétaire de l'audience

HELD AT: TENUE À:

Conference Centre Centre des conférences

Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais

Portage IV Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage 140, Promenade du Portage

Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec)

June 21, 2001 Le 21 juin 2001

Volume 3

ii

TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

PAGE / PARA NO.

APPLICATION BY / DEMANDE PAR

Radio Témiscamingue Inc. (CKVM) 1 / 5

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 50 / 218

APPLICATION BY / DEMANDE PAR

Community Radio Society of Saskatoon Inc. 52 / 225

APPLICATION BY / DEMANDE PAR

Rogers Broadcasting Limited (CKBY-FM) 102 / 394

APPLICATION BY / DEMANDE PAR

World Television Network (WTM) / 123 / 482

Le Réseau Télémonde Inc.

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR

Mr. Joe Volpe, M.P. 232 / 999

Honourable Gerry Weiner 255 / 1112

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 270 / 1167

--- Upon commencing on Thursday, June 21 2001 at 9:06 a.m. / L'audience débute le jeudi 21 juin 2001 à 9h06.

1. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. Bienvenue.
2. Madame la Secrétaire.
3. MME L. POIRIER: Merci, Madame la Présidente. Nous allons débuter l'audience ce matin avec une demande présentée par Radio Témiscamingue inc. en vue de renouveler la licence de la station de radio CKVM Ville-Marie, y compris son émetteur CKVM-FM-1 Témiscaming qui expire le 31 août 2001.
4. Madame Perron, vous pouvez débuter.

DEMANDE / APPLICATION

1. MME S. PERRON: Bonjour à vous tous. Ça me fait plaisir. Je suis la Directrice générale de Radio Témiscamingue depuis 1 an. J'ai avec moi un homme d'affaire de Ville-Marie, Monsieur Claude Gagnon, qui est le Vice-président du Conseil d'administration de CKVM et également Président de la Société de développement du Témiscamingue.
2. Alors, je vais vous présenter l'allocution dont vous avez eu une copie. D'abord, je voudrais vous signaler que je suis vraiment ici au nom de tous les Témiscamiens. Ils sont propriétaires de leur radio depuis 50 ans et se sont de fiers propriétaires, et donc je les représente. Et dès mon arrivée, j'ai vraiment ressenti cette fierté des Témiscamiens.
3. Donc, je me suis sentie investie pour préserver, protéger cette radio-là et relancer la station. À tous les jours, je travaille à préserver et à être un partenaire pour le développement économique, culturel, social et communautaire du Témiscamingue. Et toute mon intervention aujourd'hui et toute ma demande et notre demande relève de cette importance du développement économique et culturel du Témiscamingue.
4. J'aborderai deux points: l'infraction au Règlement de 1986 sur la radio et la non-conformité à notre Certificat de radiodiffusion. Nous souhaitons obtenir un délai afin de modifier ce dernier.
5. Le Règlement en 1985 concernant la soumission des rubans-témoins. C'est un événement qui est survenu avant mon arrivée en poste et je réfère à la lettre que j'ai envoyé à Madame Poirier le 8 mai dernier.
6. "Nous vous précisons que l'état

   en infraction de Radio Témiscamingue de se conformer au Règlement de 1986 sur la radio concernant la soumission des rubans-témoins et dont vous faites mention dans l'avis public, a été corrigé dès les jours qui ont suivi votre réquisiton à la mi-juin 1999. Veuillez à ce sujet vous rapportez à la lettre du directeur général de l'époque, Monsieur Yvon Larivière, en date du 23 juin 1999."

7. Alors, je confirme donc ce que Monsieur Larivière avait dit à ce moment-là et je vous assure que les 6 magnétoscopes enregistrent fidèlement toute la programmation de CKVM. Cette programmation-là est conservée pour un mois. Vous comprendrez que nous ne voyons pas la nécessité d'une ordonnance de conformité puisque nous respectons le Règlement depuis 1986.
8. Afin d'aller plus loin, je me suis même posée des questions et j'ai vérifié la fiabilité de l'enregistrement de nos émissions. Nous utilisons une batterie APC, modèle UPS 500. Selon les spécifications de la compagnie, cette batterie permet de conserver en mémoire la programmation de l'enregistrement pour une durée de 13 minutes lorsque la moitié de la capacité de la batterie est utilisée.
9. C'est une batterie de 300 watts, alors que la capacité d'utilisation des magnétoscopes -- j'ai vérifié, j'ai fait enquête -- prendrait à peu près 130 watts. Donc, nous avons plus que la moitié des 13 minutes. Donc, j'évalue que l'on a à peu près 15 minutes d'interruption de courant pour conserver en mémoire nos enregistrements.
10. Alors, au-delà de ces 15 minutes-là, il suffit pour nous de reprogrammer les enregistrements manuellement, reprogrammer les magnétoscopes pour qu'ils enregistrent l'ensemble de la programmation des émissions. Ça fonctionne. Un magnétoscope enregistre six heures. L'autre magnétoscope six heures.
11. Donc, c'est six heures le soir à minuit, de six heures le matin jusqu'à midi, de midi à six heures le soir, et les émissions sont toutes enregistrées comme ça. Et pendant le weekend, il y a plus de magnétoscopes. C'est des cassettes de huit heures. Tout est organisé comme ça et le changement de cassettes se fait une fois par jour, à six heures le soir lorsque l'employé termine. Ça marche très, très bien. On a toute une pile de cassette semaine, une semaine, deux semaines, trois, et on roule comme ça, pas de problème.
12. Ça m'a donc ammené à une réflexion que je voulais vous faire partager; la fiabilité des enregistrements. S'il y a une panne de courant, bon évidemment on reprogramme. S'il est 11 heures, minuit le soir, il nous manquera peut-être une heure, je vous le dis, mais en fait les gens vont se lever, il vont venir, tous le monde reste tout près et on reprogramme l'enregistrement. Ils sont bien avertis.
13. Mais les interruptions de courant sont assez fréquentes au Témiscamingue et au-delà de la fiabilité de l'enregistrement, il y a la fiabilité du service de CKVM. Il y a du service continu. Et ça serait très important surtout en situation d'urgence qu'on puisse diffuser CKVM toujours et tout le temps. C'est la seule station de radio. Alors, j'ai discuté avec les gens d'Hydro Québec afin qu'on puisse obtenir des générateurs. Ça n'existe pas.
14. On m'a informé que le Chef administratif des relations avec le milieu, Michel Lemay, va questionner le Comité de la sécurité civile de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue. Il y aura une réunion bientôt. Il siège sur ce comité-là et il va leur demander qu'elles sont les mesures d'urgence prisent, les mesures pour qu'on puisse assurer des services de communication d'urgence en cas de panne électrique.
15. J'ai vécu moi-même la crise du verglas et je sais comment le service de radio était d'autant plus important. Tout le monde avait des batteries. Tout le monde écoutait et avait les consignes via la radio. C'était le moyen de communication. Alors, je crois que pour assurer à la fois un service continu et la protection et je voulais dire au CRTC que bon, je pense qu'il y a une démarche qui doit être fait pour une région comme la nôtre d'obtenir des générateurs. Et ça démontre l'importance pour nous et ce qui va expliquer le reste de l'allocution d'offrir des services continus à tous les gens du territoire, n'importe quelle situation.
16. Concernant le Certificat de radiodiffusion. C'est seulement le 1er juin dernier, c'est à dire une vingtaine de jours, lorsque j'ai reçu les documents de Madame Lynne Poirier que j'ai compris que CKVM était en contravention avec l'article 22 de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion et qu'il fallait corriger la situation pour obtenir un renouvellement de licence. Notre certificat stipule que nous devons diffuser à une puissance de 1 kilowatt entre le coucher et le lever du soleil avec un diagramme directionnel.
17. Quand je suis arrivée le 15 mai 2000, Monsieur Larivière m'avait dit qu'on ne respectait pas nécessairement le 1 kilowatt mais qu'il y avait tolérance, que c'est comme ça que ça se faisait et puis qu'il y aurait un renouvellement puis ça se réglerait. J'en avais jamais pris conscience de la complexité et des risques et du fait qu'on ne serait pas renouvellé.
18. J'avais obtenu en mars dernier d'autant plus un document jaune qu'on a déterminé hier qui était un document pour un Certificat de radiocommunication et non pas radiodiffusion. C'est ce qu'on réussi à éclaircir hier, mais moi j'avais un papier jaune qui me disait que c'était renouvellé. J'avais eu ça au mois de mars. Quand la demande de renouvellement c'est fait, j'étais loin de me douter de l'état d'infraction.
19. Alors, je me suis mise à fouiller le dossier. En un an, je vous dis que je n'avais pas du tout fait ça. Et comme les documents que Madame Poirier m'a envoyé, j'avais toutes les lettres vis-à-vis tout ça. Ça disait que ça coutait à peu près $6,000 selon les données '98 pour remettre en opération deux tours et diffuser en diagramme directionniel. Il semblerait qu'il y en a juste une qui fonctionne et puis il faudrait, pour avoir directionnel, avoir deux tours de plus.
20. À cette époque, les administrateurs investissaient dans un projet de construction d'une station FM. Et donc, ils avaient obtenu un délai pour faire leur étude FM et donc ils n'ont pas procédé à ces études-là, d'autant plus qu'il y avait des coûts engendrés. Le projet a été retardé en raison des coût trop élevés pour la capacité budgétaire de l'entreprise et ils n'ont pas procédé avec une station FM.
21. Ensuite, ils se sont dit bon, ça va quand même assez mal. On va vendre la station. On va faire une offre au Réseau Radio-Nord. C'est une proposition qui n'a pas été très bien accueillie dans la communauté je vous dirais. Il y a eu beaucoup de revendications. Ils ont abandonné la démarche et les employés ont préparé un plan de relance de l'entreprise. C'est un des documents que je vous ai fourni et qui fait quelques pages où vous allez avoir le mandat du Comité de relance et les raisons pourquoi ils l'ont créé, quels sont les objectifs et considérant qu'il y avait des difficultés financière, qu'ils voulaient passer au FM et qu'ils ne pouvaient pas, qu'ils ne pouvaient vendre la station, et caetera.
22. Moi, je suis arrivée. Ils avaient travaillé sur le plan de relance ça faisait un an. Il était plus ou moins réussi je dirais et depuis un an je travaille à ce plan de relance-là. Je l'ai modifié, amélioré, ça va bon relativement bien. Donc, là j'ai compris ce qui c'était passé dans le passé et pourquoi on était en contravention et que finalement je comprenais plus la tolérance en question. Là, qu'est-ce que je fais avec ça?
23. J'ai téléphoné au gens d'Industrie Canada, à Monsieur Douglas Larivière qui est le représentant de la région et qui est à Val-d'Or je crois, pour savoir comment se conformer à la loi. Il m'a entre autres expliqué qu'on pouvait faire une demande de modification des paramètres d'exploitation de nuit. Alors, j'ai rencontré les gens du Conseil d'administration. On a jugé que c'était la meilleure décision à pendre. On s'est dit on va faire une nouvelle demande pour être conforme et obtenir un certificat du Ministère qui permettrait de renouveller notre licence au CRTC.
24. On a donc mandaté la firme Yves R. Hamel et Associés de Montréal pour qu'elle prépare les documents d'une demande de modification du patron de nuit afin de diffuser avec un diagramme omnidirectionnel et qu'elle procède à une étude pour déterminer quelle serait la puissance maximale possible de diffusion qui ne causerait pas d'interférence réelle à d'autres stations. Et réelle, je dit qu'il y ait aucun auditeur qui soit dérangé par le brouillage d'ondes. Vous allez trouver ici ci-joint une copie du mandat accordé à la firme Hamel.
25. On procède avec cette demande et cette étude parce que l'on croit que les données ont changé depuis 50 ans, depuis l'octroi du Certificat de radiodiffusion de CKVM et que ces données-là ne sont plus conformes à la réalité actuelle. Je vais vous expliquer. Il y a deux choses entre autre: l'environnement médiatique des stations de radio a changé et aussi le mode de vie des citoyens. À ce propos, je vais juste vous que les gens travaillent maintenant à toute heure du jour ou de la nuit. Le service je vous dirais est nécessaire. On pourrait élaborer sur les modifications et changements de vie y'a 50 ans.
26. La radiodiffusion. La majorité des stations diffusent maintenant sur la bande FM. Maintenant, ce sera le numérique, diminuant d'autant plus les interférences que nous pouvons causer. Quant aux stations AM existantes, l'environnement aussi a changé. Si on prend une station AM américaine qui existe et qui possède des droits acquis antérieures aux nôtres, je suis certaine qu'à l'époque, elle était la seule station à peu près dans son milieu, et que maintenant c'est plein de stations FM autour qui offrent toutes sortes de services, des services à la population.
27. Par exemple au Témiscamingue, c'est pas le cas. Et puis je vous dirais comme la Société de développement du Témiscamingue le dit -- il y a une lettre jointe ici -- nous sommes "le seul lien de communication capable de garder le contact avec l'ensemble de la population du territoire", d'où l'importance d'une station AM qui puisse diffuser (inaudible). Nous sommes une population de près 18,500 habitants.
28. Je vais référer à la lettre de la SDT ici qui explique un peu notre territoire.

    "Le Témiscamingue couvre une superficie de 20,000 km carrés où l'on trouve 20 municipalités et 4 communautés algonguines. Le territoire est sillonné d'un réseau routier forestier de plus de 1,000 km où circulent les camions qui approvisionnent les 8 entreprises de transformation du territoire. Ce même réseau assure aussi l'accès à la clientèle de plus de 50 pourvoiries et 4 zec (Zone d'exploitation contrôlée). Plusieurs milliers de personnes circulent donc de façon continue à toute heure et en toute saison sur ce vaste territoire pour faire fonctionner l'industrie forestière et touristique."

29. Vous pouvez donc facilement comprendre que sur un si vaste territoire, plusieurs résidents ne pourraient capter le signal de CKVM à 1 kilowatt au coucher du soleil. En fait, à cette faible intensité, seuls les résidents de Ville-Marie et de ses environs immédiats qui recevraient le signal de CKVM. La seule autre radio accessible est une station ontarienne anglophone, de l'autre côté du lac qui rejoint une partie de la population, celle du nord. Quant aux stations abitibiennes, elles sont captées via le câble, uniquement via le câble, comme l'est aussi CKVM. Mais il y a plus de la moitié des 20 municipalités qui ne sont pas câblées.
30. Alors, plusieurs municipalités du Témiscamingue se retrouveraient complètement privées du seul service public de communication, à partir de l'heure du coucher du soleil. Je fais un exemple ici. Il suffit de penser à nos cammionneurs de bois qui en hiver, vers 16 heures au coucher du soleil, circuleraient sur les routes sans météo, sans circulation, sans condition routière, sans informations sur ce qui pourraient se passer.
31. Ce service est essentiel, d'autant plus que nous avons aussi et j'ajouterais le mandat de diffuser les nouvelles nationales de la Société d'État. On est des affiliés à Radio-Canada et donc c'est un service public d'État que les Témiscamiens ont via CKVM. C'est-à-dire que donc les nouvelles de soirée ou de 18h00 ou 17h00 ne seraient pas diffusées dans plusieurs municipalités si on est à 1 kilowatt la nuit. Sans diminuer l'imporatnce de se conformer à la loi ou à des ententes inter-frontalières, je questionne ce cadre réglementaire-là et je souhaite quelque part qu'il puisse d'adapter à cette réalité, à cette problématique dont je vous expose.
32. Vous comprendrez si je me dis, il faudrait que je sois capable ou que l'on soit tous capables ici de justifier aux yeux des auditeurs les raisons qui entraîneraient un tel arrêt de service sur un si grand territoire à l'heure du coucher du soleil. Il faudra le justifer. Je veux juste souligner ça. C'est pourquoi nous demandons au Ministère de l'industrie de faire preuve de souplesse dans l'application de la loi afin que nous obtenions un Certificat de radiodiffusion qui réponde au besoins des Témiscamiens et qui assure aussi le dynamisme et la viabilité de leur radio.
33. Pour parler du dynamisme, c'est évident que la réduction de la puissance de diffusion après le coucher du soleil affecterait directement notre programmation de soirée. À la programmation actuelle qui vient de débuter le 8 juin dernier, le vendredi soir, il y a deux nouvelles émissions. C'est des émissions qui sont faites par des jeunes. Nous avons trouvé un jeune mordu de la musique des années 50 et 60. Il est en direct et diffuse de 19h00 à 21h00.
34. À 21h00, c'est les jeunes qui rentrent en studio. Des jeunes qui n'ont pas fait de radio et qui mettent de la musique pour les jeunes et qui font l'émission jusqu'à 23h00. C'est des initiatives importantes que les jeunes ne pourraient pas capter, encore une fois, si on respecte la réglementation. Je vous dirais également que nous participons au Salon du livre de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue. Il était à Ville-Marie cette année. Alors, on y était en fin de soirée. On diffusait les entrevues avec les auteurs partout en direct. Il y a une programmation de soirée qui serait importante à diffuser.
35. Évidemment, ces émissions-là et la perte d'auditeurs pourraient entraîner quelque part difficulté pour la survie économique de la station CKVM. Sa survie, elle est précaire. Après qu'on a fini l'année dernière, au mois d'août dernier, au 31 août, avec $20,000 de déficit. Moi, je suis arrivée juste avant ça. Donc, les pertes de revenus que pourraient entraîner la baisse du volume publicitaire en raison de la perte des auditeurs et en perte de programmation pourrait nécessairement je vous dis mettre en danger l'équilibre fragile de la station.
36. Plusieurs organismes nous ont exprimé leur inquiétude face à une baisse de puissance et manifesté leur soutien. Vous trouverez ci-joint les lettre de la Municipalité régionale de comté et de la Société de développement du Témiscamingue. Notre député fédéral, Monsieur Pierre Brien, ainsi que notre député provincial, Monsieur Rémy Trudel, ministre de la Santé et de services sociaux sont également informés du dossier.
37. Depuis 50 ans, Radio Témiscamingue fonctionne comme un organisme à but non-lucratif. Les Témiscamiens sont de fiers propriétaires et je veux vous donner un exemple récent. Ils ont démontré à maintes reprises leur profond attachement à leur radio. Pour conserver gratuitement les nouvelles de la Société Radio-Canada dans le dossier de la désaffiliation il y a quelques mois, nous avons receuilli plus de 5,300 personnes qui ont signé une pétition.
38. Et ça c'était pour faire en sorte de préserver l'équilibre budgétaire de la station, puisqu'il y aurait eu des dépenses supplémentaires, et pour que tout le monde sur le territoire conserve les nouvelles de Radio-Canada puisqu'un émetteur de Radio-Canada aurait couvert, encore une fois comme le 1 kilowatt, à peu près la ville de Ville-Marie. 5300 signatures. Et là, on exclus même les gens du Témiscamingue sud qui n'ont pas signé cette pétition-là, sur 19,000 personnes à peu près (inaudible) c'est à peu près la moitié.
39. Alors, dans les circonstances, nous demandons au CRTC de nous octroyer un délai et par le fait même une dérogation de conformité à la puissance de diffusion permise entre le coucher et le lever du soleil, jusqu'à ce que le Ministère de l'industrie est pris connaissance de l'étude d'ingénierie et révisé notre situation. Cette dérogation s'avère indispensable pour offrir un service minimum aux Témiscamiens. Je vous le dis, je verrais mal comment les priver de leur radio en fin de soirée sans soulever l'indignation.
40. Nous sommes conscients que vous avez fait preuve de tolérance et qu'il nous faut trouver un cadre qui puisse à la fois conjugué notre problématique et la réglementation de la radiodiffusion. Soyez assuré de notre bonne foi. J'espère que l'on va trouver une façon. Je pense qu'on va poser les questions.
41. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, madame.
42. Conseiller juridique, s'il vous plaît?
43. Me P. McCALLUM: Oui, s'il vous plaît. Étant donné que vous êtes devant le Conseil pour discuter de la possibilité d'émission d'une ordonnance, je vais expliquer de quoi il s'agit une ordonnance selon la loi. C'est au sujet d'une ordonnance d'interdire ou cesser de faire quoi que ce soit qui y contrevient. Selon l'article 12 de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion, le Conseil peut émettre une ordonnance de faire ou de cesser quoi que ce soit.
44. Les passages pertinents de l'article 12 de la Loi se lise comme suit:

"Le Conseil peut connaître de toute question pour laquelle il estime:

1. L'article 12(2) stipule que:

   "Le Conseil peut, par ordonnance, soit imposer l'exécution des obligations découlant de la présente partie ou des ordonnances, décisions pris par lui ou des décisions attribuées par lui, soit interdire ou faire cesser quoi que ce soit qui y contrevient."

2. Dans le cas de Radio Témiscamingue, ce qui est soumis devant le Conseil pour discussion est la possibilité d'émettre une ordonnance de se conformer avec l'article 8 du Règlement de 1986 sur la radio qui requiert que la titulaire conserve les rubans-témoins et les soumettre après demande au Conseil. Afin de faire brièvement comprendre les implications d'une telle ordonnance, suite à cette audience et après avoir considérer la preuve devant lui, le Conseil peut décider d'émettre une ordonnance et de la déposer au greffier de la Cour fédérale du Canada après l'avoir signifier à Radio Témiscamingue conformément aux règles de pratique et de procédure de cette cour.
3. Sitôt fait, en conformité avec l'article 13(1) de la loi, l'ordonnance du Conseil sera assimilée à une ordonnance de la Cour fédérale et son exécution pourra s'effectuer selon les mêmes modalités que n'importe quelle ordonnance émanant de cette cour. Selon les règles de la Cour fédérale, qui compte qui désobéit à une ordonnance de cette cour est passible d'outrage au tribunal. Ainsi, si une ordonnance était émise et que la Radio Témiscamingue ne s'y conformait pas subséquemment, le Conseil fournirait les preuves d'un tel manquement à la Cour fédérale et un instance pour outrage au tribunal aurait lieu devant la Cour fédérale du Canada.
4. Radio Témiscamingue aurait le droit de présenter une défense et si elle était trouvée coupable d'outrage au tribunal, elle serait sujet à une amende déterminée par la Cour fédérale.
5. Vous comprenez maintenant de quoi il s'agit, une ordonnance?
6. MME S. PERRON: Une ordonnance de se conformer au règlement.
7. Me P. McCALLUM: Vous comprenez de quoi il s'agit. Et si je peux juste pour ---
8. MME S. PERRON: Et vous parlez des bandes-témoins.
9. Me P. McCALLUM: Oui, c'est ça. Et juste pour encadrer la discussion, il faut peut-être lire aussi l'article 22 de la Loi qui stipule:

   "Il est interdit au Conseil d'attribuer, de modifier ou de renouveler une licence avant que le Ministère de l'industrie ait certifié au Conseil que le demandeur, d'une part, a satisfait aux exigences de la Loi sur la radiocommunication et de ses règlements d'application."

10. Donc, je voulais juste vous signaler cette article pour bien encadrer les discussions que vous allez avoir avec le Panel et avec le conseiller juridique.
11. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur McCallum.
12. Conseillère Cram.
13. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Bonjour.
14. MME S. PERRON: Bonjour.
15. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Comme le conseiller dit, aujourd'hui vous avez parlé, Madame Perron, aux deux sujets. Le deuxième est au sujet de le Certificat de radiodiffusion. Maintenant, j'espère que vous comprenez que le délai que vous avez demandé et la dérogation que vous avez demandé, ce n'est pas de notre compétence. Ce n'est pas dans notre compétence avec la Loi comme le conseiller a lu. Ça c'est la compétence du Ministère de l'industrie. Et nous, nous devrons nous occuper seulement si vous avez un Certificat de radiodiffusion du Ministère de l'industrie. Puis la seule chose avec le Certificat que nous devrons nous occuper est quand vous aurez ce certificat.
16. Est-ce que vous comprenez?
17. MME S. PERRON: Oui. Mais je suis un peu surprise. Je pensais que jusqu'à temps qu'on l'obtienne, vous devez nous donner un délai. Qu'est-ce que vous pouvez faire?
18. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Ça ce n'est pas de notre compétence.
19. MME S. PERRON: Pas pour l'émettre. Ça je le comprends.
20. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: La Loi dit que nous devrons nous occuper avec seulement si vous avez un certificat. Et puis, quand -- j'ai noté votre remarque. Et quand est-ce que Monsieur Hamel va donner le Ministère les choses nécessaires pour obtenir le certificat?
21. MME S. PERRON: Il me dit que ça se faisait très rapidement. J'ai déjà commencé. Il a déjà une partie des évaluations des sta -- il a identifié toute la liste des stations qui diffusent sur AM 710. Il est entrain de discuter avec le Ministère comment formuler ces choses. Pour lui, ça sera pas long. Moi je pense que c'est une question de semaines.
22. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Okay.
23. MME S. PERRON: Mais la réponse du Ministère de l'industrie, ça je ne le sais pas.
24. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui, je comprends. Et aussi, il me semble que vous avez -- aujourd'hui vous avez dit que vous allez demandé au Ministère de l'industrie de faire preuve de souplesse dans l'application de la Loi afin de nous -- nous obtenions un Certificat de radiodiffusion qui répond au besoin du Témiscamingue.
25. Est-ce que vous allez demandé d'agrandir votre puissance au nuit?
26. MME S. PERRON: Non. Mais le 1 kilowatt la nuit, oui. On va aller jusqu'à temps qu'on puisse.
27. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Maintenir la même puissance la nuit. Est-ce que ça change -- bien, vraiment ça c'est un changement d'avant, parce qu'en avant ---
28. MME S. PERRON: Présentement, nous avons 1 kilowatt la nuit. C'est ça le certificat que nous avons.
29. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Okay.
30. MME S. PERRON: Alors là, on va l'augmenter. On va essayer d'aller au maximum qu'on puisse aller sans créer d'interférence. Mais la souplesse c'est vraiment plus sur le type d'interférence. C'est de ça que porte l'allocution. Je sais qu'à Niagara Falls, on rentre dans l'air de diffusion des ondes de Niagara Falls mais c'est sur le côté du lac et de l'eau. Y'a pas d'auditeurs. On peut être très strict dans notre courbe des ondes d'interférence mais il faudrait aller sur le terrain et vérifier la réalité
31. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Bon, les choses que nous nous occupons aujourd'hui est surtout avec les non-conformités de CKVM. Et nous parlons maintenant de toutes les non-conformités depuis 1989 parce qu'il y avait quatres. D'accord? Vous ne savez pas. En 1989, votre licence était renouvelée pour une période à court terme de trois ans suite à une non-conformité concernant les rubans-témoins de votre station. Est-ce que ---
32. MME S. PERRON: En '89?
33. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui, '89.
34. MME S. PERRON: Y'en a eu un autre après. Y'en a eu une en '98 là -- '99.
35. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: '89.
36. MME S. PERRON: Okay.
37. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui. Et puis, en 1992, encore un renouvellement pour une période à court terme de deux ans.
38. MME S. PERRON: Deux ans?
39. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui. Suite à une autre non-conformité concernant les rubans-témoins encore.
40. MME S. PERRON: Encore?
41. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Et en 1997, encore un autre renouvellement de court terme de quatre ans suite a une non-conformité concernant le contenu canadien et la musique vocale de langue française. Puis maintenant, concernant la présente licence, vous êtes à nouveau en non-conformité présumée concernant la disponibilité des rubans-témoins de votre station. Puis, nous au Conseil, ça fait la quatrième fois.
42. MME S. PERRON: Je ne savais pas ma chère madame.
43. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Pas du tout?
44. MME S. PERRON: Non. Non, non, pas du tout. Absolument pas.
45. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Mais vous êtes d'accord que la non-conformité présente, c'est la vérité, en 19 ---
46. MME S. PERRON: Mais la dernière, j'en ai été informée dans les lettres que j'ai eu. J'ai vu qu'il y avait eu correspondance et j'ai trouvé la lettre que Monsieur Larivière a fait. Je me suis dit bien oui, ça fonctionne. C'était conforme quand moi je suis arrivée. Je ne savais pas qu'il y avait eu infraction là-dessus.
47. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Puis ma question était de demander vos commentaires sur vos non-conformités depuis 1989. Mais vous ne pourrez pas donner les commentaires du tout.
48. MME S. PERRON: Non. Je ne peux pas me prononcer.
49. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Parce que pour nous au Conseil, nous devrons nous occuper de toute l'histoire, pas seulement la dernière non-conformité.
50. MME S. PERRON: Là je comprends pourquoi qu'on est convoqué.
51. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui.
52. MME S. PERRON: C'est comme probablement que ---
53. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Et je vous ai (inaudible) de toutes les choses avec les machines mais j'ai quelques questions. Qu'est-ce qui va se passer si les nouvelles machines seront brisées? Est-ce que vous avez une -- en anglais, un "backup" ou une autre?
54. MME S. PERRON: On a six magnétoscopes. On en a besoin de trois par jour. Alors, c'est juste on aura un délai de la fin de semaine disons. En tout cas, le backup existe là. Si un magnétoscope une journée décide de ne pas prendre la programmation, on en a tout de suite d'autres sur place. On en a plus que ce qu'on a besoin dans le quotidiennement.
55. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Okay. Mais qu'est-ce qui se passerait si toute la machine est brisée?
56. MME S. PERRON: Mais, c'est plusieurs (inaudible). Comme on dit, on va aller au magasin en acheter un autre.
57. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui. Est-ce que vous avez gardé la vieille machine?
58. MME S. PERRON: Ah, non, non. Je ne pense pas. Je pense que c'était une machine à bande-là. Je ne sais pas. Je ne l'ai jamais vu. Moi, quand je suis arrivée, c'était en place depuis un an ce magnétoscope. Et c'est pour ça que j'ai vérifié la fiabilité de l'enregistrement de la programmation et que je suis allée un peu plus loin en me disant ---
59. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Okay. Et maintenant, si on vous demandait de fournir les registres, la liste musicale, les rubans-témoins, ainsi qu'une auto-évaluation pour la semaine dernière, ceci sera-t-il conforme à la règlementation?
60. MME S. PERRON: Ah, oui, absolument.
61. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Et est-ce que vous pourriez vous engager auprès du Conseil dorénavant rencontrer et/ou consulter le personnel du Conseil lorsque vous avez des doutes relativement, soit le (inaudible), les politiques ou les règlementations du Conseil?
62. MME S. PERRON: J'ai mal compris. Je m'engage à les consulter?
63. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui.
64. MME S. PERRON: C'est ça?
65. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui.
66. MME S. PERRON: Absolument. Oui, parce que je suis -- je ne connais pas tout et j'ai fait plusieurs téléphones.
67. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Ça ne causerait pas de problèmes vraiment.
68. MME S. PERRON: Okay.
69. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Et maintenant, vous avez dit d'abord que vous ne voyez pas la nécessité d'une ordonnance de conformité. Vous avez dit ça. Mais après toute l'histoire que maintenant vous savez, pourriez-vous nous offrir une justification quelconque pour que le Conseil ne mettre pas une ordonnance dans votre cas?
70. MME S. PERRON: Une ordonnance, c'est quoi au juste? C'est ça que monsieur expliquait?
71. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Une ordonnance (inaudible), oui.
72. MME S. PERRON: Une pénalité au tribunal.
73. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Oui.
74. MME S. PERRON: Justification. Il y en a plusieurs justifications. Je pense que premièrement, la dernière exemple c'était il y a rien de volontaire, de malveillant de ne pas avoir fourni les rubans-témoins et ils ont procédé avec diligence pour s'équiper, d'aller acheter rapidement pour pouvoir offrir les rubans-témoins. Je pense que ça il y a une preuve de ce que j'ai vu comme démarche qui était rapide et efficace avec leur machine.
75. Je pense que CKVM a eu au cours des années certains appareils défectueux et des problèmes de technicien et pas beaucoup d'argent. Bon, ce genre de choses-là, je travaille très fort moi sur l'amélioration du contenu technologique informatique. Il y a des dépenses qui doivent être faite justement. C'est dans cette optique-là que je prends comme la relance. Je veux des micros qui fonctionnent et que ça soit donc la même chose. On doit se conformer à la Loi.
76. Donc, justification de la diligence de l'information, moi je vous assure ici que tout en place pour qu'on puisse vous fournir les rubans-témoins n'importe quand. Il y a vraiment une bonne foi là. Ça été démontré que je soutiens de par mon propre travail cette dernière année. Je pourrais être sur le comble de la bonne foi et du travail qu'on est entrain d'accomplir à CKVM.
77. Autre chose, c'est une station qui n'a pas beaucoup d'argent effectivement. Et je pense que dans les circonstances, on aimerait bien qu'il n'y aie aucune amende ou pénalité quelconque. Pour une station, de un, une pénalité, on couvre -- on est les seuls dans notre région. Si c'est une pénalité d'être hors d'onde, je ne sais pas. Ou une question de -- nos finances sont tellement serrées, on a tellement d'amélioration à faire que bon, ça justifierait (inaudible).
78. Claude voudrait parler?
79. M. C. GAGNON: S'il vous permettez, madame. Vous savez, sans vouloir dénigrer les gens qui étaient en place auparavant dans les années passées, moi je suis ce matin tout surpris de voir les non-conformités que vous avez souligné dans le passé, qui se sont produites dans le passé, et de constater la diligence ou le peu de diligence qui a été établie en fonction de ces situations.
80. Depuis un an, le Conseil d'administration de la station a été modifié. Il y a un groupe de jeunes, dont j'en fait parti. J'ai peut-être un peu d'âge mais par contre je dois vous dire que c'est une expérience administrative et on s'est entouré de personnes dans le même sens. Et avec la nouvelle directrice dont nous avons en place actuellement, je peux vous assurer ce matin que on va tout mettre en place pour corriger la situation qui a là actuellement, qui existe. Et on va tout mettre en place pour que ne se répète pas ce genre de situation.
81. Vous pouvez être assuré que le Conseil d'administration va être mis au courant de cette situation à mon retour et je pense que notre directrice va n'en faire part et on va faire diligence pour que, à l'avenir, ça ne se reproduise pas ce genre de chose-là. Vous savez au Témiscamingue, quand même la station, c'est un joyau on pourrait presque dire. C'est un joyau du développement.
82. En temps que Président de la Société de développement du Témiscamingue, je peux vous dire que actuellement, au niveau de la région, nous sommes à un état où il y a beaucoup de projets sur la table qui vont, lorsqu'ils seront en place, vont ammener un afflux de travailleurs, de gens nouveaux dans la région qui vont venir travailler. Et je trouverais déplorable que cet outil de travail que nous avons actuellement soit en tout cas d'une façon ou d'une autre peut-être rétrogradé ou fermé ou quoi que ce soit.
83. On pense que c'est -- en tout cas, pour nous autres, c'est un outil de travail qui est autant dans le domaine culturel, domaine social, domaine économique. C'est un outil de travail qui est très important, surtout pour les gens chez nous et les gens qui vont venir de l'extérieur pour venir habiter chez nous. Alors, pour vous mentionner que ça fait partie d'une continuité du développement qu'on veut mettre de l'avant. Je peux vous affirmer ce matin, à mon nom et au nom du Conseil d'administration, que nous allons tout mettre en oeuvre pour que ça ne reproduise pas et corriger la situation qui existe actuellement.
84. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Merci. Je suis certaine que vous avez de bons points. Ce n'est pas une question. Le problème est présent de non-conformité. Et maintenant, nous avons une administration d'un an qui travaille fort. Mais pensez-vous qu'au lieu d'une ordonnance, peut-être nous pourrons donner un renouvellement d'un an, 18 mois pour nous assurer que ce soit bien au futur. Que pensez-vous?
85. MME S. PERRON: Ça l'est actuellement. Ça va le rester dans un an, dans deux ans, dans trois ans. C'est votre propre confiance qui a été ébranlée je crois. Alors, moi je prendrais votre décision.
86. CONSEILLÈRE CRAM: Merci bien.
87. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Peut-être que les autres Conseillers ont des questions? Madame la Vice-présidente.
88. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Bonjour, Madame Perron et Monsieur Gagnon. Madame la Conseillère Cram a très bien cerné le dossier. Mais là, il me reste quelque chose que j'ai du mal à comprendre. Ce qui arrive souvent dans des stations qui sont en non-conformité, c'est la situation que vous nous établissez ce matin. C'est que vous, vous êtes nouvelle. Vous êtes pleine d'enthousiasme. Vous êtes une jeune femme. Vous ne resterez peut-être pas là éternellement et il semble que vous n'êtes pas -- il n'y a pas de dossiers ou de suivis à la station qui permette de s'assurer qu'il y a là une continuité de conformité.
89. Alors, je me demande il semblerait que si vous comme directrice générale vous n'étiez pas au courant des non-conformités qui ont été soulevées par Madame Cram, qu'il manque quelque chose à la station et au Conseil d'administration et qu'il y aurait peut-être lieu d'examiner la possibilité d'avoir sur place des méthodes, d'avoir un suivi pour les gens qui passent à la station. C'est une façon d'assurer la conformité c'est d'avoir des règles quelconque qui sont transmises au nouveaux employés, qui sont transmises au Conseil d'administration et qui s'assure qu'il y a des conditions de licence qui sont importantes, où il y a eu des non-conformités dans le passé.
90. Il ne s'agit pas seulement des rubans-témoins qui se corrigent assez facilement en achetant de l'équipement. Mais il y a aussi des non-conformités que la Conseillère Cram a soulevé. Est-ce que vous avez des commentaires là-dessus? Pour vous Madame Perron, vous ne seriez peut-être pas dans la même situation où vous êtes ce matin si vous aviez pris la station avec un suivi beaucoup plus poussé. Et que maintenant peut-être que vous et Monsieur Gagnon, qu'est-ce que vous pensez de la responsibilité que vous avez vous pour ceux qui vous remplaceront si jamais Monsieur Gagnon prends de l'âge?
91. MME S. PERRON: Je crois que le directeur qui était en place a été là très longtemps. Il a travaillé dans cette station durant 30 ans. Il a pris sa retraite a 70 ans. Alors, lui il savait tout. Il savait où étaient ses dossiers. J'ai passé quelques jours avec lui. C'était chez lui de communiquer toutes ces choses du passé là, je ne pense pas que c'était d'une importance. Moi, je vous dis, je tombe (inaudible). Mais moi je suis jeune ---
92. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Vous trouvez que c'est important?
93. MME S. PERRON: Oui. Mais moi, je suis plus jeune. Effectivement, je ne veux pas rester à CKVM durant 30 ans. J'ai une carrière et bon, peut-être je vais revenir ici là. J'ai ma propre image à préserver et donc pour le souci que j'ai à CKVM qui est très grand, je vais faire en sorte que cette station-là se préserve dans le bon chemin et est un Certificat de radiodiffusion et une licence de CRTC conforme et respectée. Je pense que ça va de soit. Ça fait partie de ---
94. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Ça implique le besoin de bien -- d'avoir des systèmes en place, pas seulement de machines et d'équipement, mais des règles qui expliquent aux gens qui s'occupent des différentes nécessités à être en conformité, que ça ça devienne important en se passant de l'un à l'autre.
95. MME S. PERRON: Avec des bons dossiers classés (inaudible).
96. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et même quelquefois ça aide aussi d'avoir une description des exigences quand on a des nouveaux employés ou des nouvelles personnes qui s'occupent.
97. Au Conseil d'administration, je suppose que vous êtes superviseur plus ou moins de la station. Est-ce que vous voyez une importance à ce genre d'exercice?
98. M. C. GAGNON: Eh bien, moi je peux vous dire que je me rends compte que la radion, ça ne marche pas tout seul ça. Il y a une chose qui est certaine, c'est comme dans toute entreprise. Il faut qu'il y est des façons de fonctionner qui soient établies et écrites et suivies. Et à mon avis en tout cas, ce que je vois ce matin, vous pouvez être assuré qu'au Conseil d'administration, je vais faire la recommandation qu'il soit établi une façon de procéder pour s'assurer que des non-conformités ne se produisent pas et s'assurer que les procédures du CRTC ou des choses qui sont conformes à la licence pour maintenir la licence soient établies et suivies de façon à ce que ces choses-là soient mise à jour et soient suivies aussi adéquatement qu'un procès-verbal peut être suivi au niveau d'une réunion.
99. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Est-ce que vous seriez prêts à nous faire part des décisions que vous avez prise à cet effet-là et de nous donner preuve des étapes que vous avez suivi pour poursuivre?
100. M. C. GAGNON: Vous mentionnez des décisions que nous allons prendre à cet effet?
101. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Mh'm. Et le besoin d'informer les gens que, non seulement ça ne fonctionne pas seul au niveau des équipements, mais que c'est règlementé et qu'il y a quelques règlements qui doivent être suivis pour rester en conformité. Ils ne sont pas -- il n'y en a pas plusieurs.
102. M. C. GAGNON: Vous pouvez être assuré que on va prendre les mesure nécessaires pour le faire et vous mettre au courant de ce qui se produit. En autant qu'on a votre adresse de suivi, on va s'assurer que ça se fasse.
103. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Et ma deuxième question est vis-à-vis Industrie Canada, j'ignore Madame Perron si vous comprenez comment ça fonctionne. Nous, nous ne pouvons donner de permis ou de renouvellement à moins qu'il y est un certificat technique. Donc, c'est notre juridiction à nous qui est limitée de cette façon-là, qui dit expressément, vous le CRTC, vous ne pouvez pas renouveler une licence ou en donner une à moins que Industrie Canada est donné un certificat.
104. Alors, si vous comprenez -- vous comprenez les difficultés ici? Il y a une juridiction qui est double, qui n'est pas seulement la nôtre. Avez-vous discuté avec Industrie Canada la possibilité de se pencher sur ce problème et de vous donner un permis intérimaire ou quelque chose qui nous permettrait à nous, sous notre juridiction, de vous donner un renouvellement, sans que nous soyons nous en écart de ce que nous avons le pouvoir de faire?
105. MME S. PERRON: J'ai pas parlé d'un permis intérimaire. Je ne savais pas que ça fonctionnait comme ça.
106. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Je ne sais même pas moi non plus. Ce n'est pas notre juridiction. Mais est-ce qu'ils ont eux des solutions? Mais je ne sais pas moi si ça existe, mais est-ce que vous avez discuté du problème que nous allons avoir un problème nous sous notre juridiction, à moins qu'ils nous donnent une possibilité? Je vois que dans le passé, je crois en '98 que mon dossier à moi en tout cas indique qu'en '98 le Certificat de radiodiffusion avait été renouvelé pour une période très courte, six mois ou c'est ça que je veux dire par intérimaire. Je ne comprends pas très bien comment ils fonctionnent mais il faut que, entre nous, il y est un agencement quelconque entre le certificat d'Industrie Canada et notre renouvellement.
107. MME S. PERRON: C'est un peu ambigu pour moi aussi parce que je regardais dans la littérature que j'avais et il y avait un renouvellement très court d'Industrie Canada, un permis, mais il y avait un plus long renouvellement du CRTC. Je me suis dit mais on est en infraction et je me suis dit bon, ils ont peut-être accordé -- CRTC accorde une certaine licence pour une certaine période.
108. C'est pour ça que j'ai dit, bon ils ont eu un délai parce qu'ils font l'étude FM. Et c'est dans cette notion-là par déduction de ce qui s'est passé avant que j'ai dit, bon bien là on met ça très court et on fait l'étude, puis Industrie Canada remet au CRTC et CRTC fait un vrai renouvellement.
109. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Vous discutez avec notre personnel ce problème-là, qu'on vous explique comment ça fonctionne entre nous et Industrie Canada? Il faudrait probablement le faire et essayer de trouver une solution en comprenant très bien qu'il y a un problème qui doit être réglé pour nous, que nous ne sommes pas la seule partie impliquée.
110. MME S. PERRON: Non.
111. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Alors, en tout case, je vous laisse ça à vous de discuter avec le personnel dans les deux cas pour que vous soyez bien au courant avec de l'aide d'experts de la situation.
112. MME S. PERRON: Mais c'est qui au CRTC? J'ai discuté avec Madame Poirier.
113. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Vous pouvez parler à Madame Poirier.
114. MME S. PERRON: Elle a reçu les documents, les lettres. J'ai dit bon, il manque tu quelque chose? Qu'est-ce qu'il faut j'apporte?
115. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Elle pourra vous aider vers le personne technique parce que nous notre personnel évidemment a des contacts avec le personnel d'Industrie Canada, parce qu'il faut que nous soyons -- ils ont leur juridiction. Nous avons la nôtre. Elle doit s'agencer dans le temps et nous avons des contacts. Pas nous les conseillers, mais le personnel. Alors, ---
116. MME S. PERRON: J'aurais bien besoin ---
117. CONSEILLÈRE WYLIE: Pour que vous soyez bien au courant que c'est un problème sur lequel vous devez vous pencher.
118. Je vous remercie, Madame la Présidente.
119. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup, madame, et merci beaucoup -- oh, un instant. Question juridique, du conseiller juridique.
120. Me P. McCALLUM: Merci. Juste pour donner la suite à ce que vous avez discuté avec Madame Wylie. Est-ce que vous saisissez l'urgence de cette question technique, parce que votre licence expire le 31 août? Donc, vous saisissez que, d'ici le 31 août, il faut faire quelque chose pour solutionner ou trouver une solution aux questions techniques. Est-ce que vous saisissez ça?
121. MME S. PERRON: Absolument, monsieur.
122. Me P. McCALLUM: Parce que d'ici le 31 août, le Conseil est face à une situation. Qu'est-ce qu'il peut faire avec votre licence? Donc, il faut agir et il faut agir rapidement.
123. MME S. PERRON: Est-ce que je peux faire des représentations auprès d'Industrie Canada?
124. Me P. McCALLUM: C'est ça. Il faut trouver ce qu'il faut faire et entreprendre les mesures, soit avec vous ou soit avec Monsieur Hamel, le plus tôt possible.
125. MME S. PERRON: C'est fait. Monsieur Hamel est déjà dans l'étude. Je vous dit ça va sortir rapidement. Il est au courant.
126. Me P. McCALLUM: Parce qu'il entreprenne les mesures et il faut qu'il fasse les études techniques qui sont à faire et d'ici le 31 août. Donc, c'est une question d'urgence.
127. MME S. PERRON: Absolument. Il m'a assuré que ça se faisait dans les prochaines semaines. Les documents seraient déposées au Ministère rapidement.
128. Me P. McCALLUM: Parce que si je vous saisis bien, les études techniques n'ont pas encore commencé. Monsieur Hamel vient tout juste d'être saisi du dossier. Il n'a pas encore commencé les études techniques.
129. MME S. PERRON: Mais j'ai été au courant de ça le 11 juin quand j'ai reçu les lettres de Madame Poirier.
130. Me P. McCALLUM: C'est ça. Merci. Pour donner suite à une deuxième chose suite à la discussion avec Madame Wylie, vous avez -- vous vous êtes engagée de donner au Conseil preuves des décisions de votre Conseil d'administration des mesures prises pour rester en conformité avec les exigences du Conseil. Évidemment, afin que le Conseil puisse se pencher et prendre connaissance de ces mesures, il faut les déposer au CRTC d'ici très peu.
131. Est-ce qu'on peut fixer un échéancier pour le dépôt de ces documents afin que le Conseil puisse prendre connaissance des ces documents?
132. MME S. PERRON: Pas de problème. Je vais réunir le Conseil d'administration (inaudible) ---
133. Me P. McCALLUM: Je songe par exemple vers la première semaine de juillet. Est-ce que c'est possible de faire quelque chose d'ici la fin de la première semaine de juillet?
134. MME S. PERRON: Oui.
135. Me P. McCALLUM: Sachant que votre licence expire toujours le 31 août, donc ---
136. MME S. PERRON: Oui, avant le vendredi 5 juillet.
137. Me P. McCALLUM: Avant le 5 juillet.
138. MME S. PERRON: Quelque chose comme ça, oui.
139. Me P. McCALLUM: Très bien. Aussi, on a pris note de votre engagement de rester en conformité avec les exigences du Conseil. Je veux juste être sûr que votre engagement s'applique à toutes les non-conformités possibles et je réfère notamment au fait que vous étiez en non-conformité en '97 avec le contenu canadien et musique vocale de langue française. Évidemment, ce qu'on veut éviter dans un tel dossier c'est que vous soyez en conformité avec une exigence cette fois-ci, et la prochaine fois vous seriez en non-conformité avec une autre exigence.
140. Donc, votre engagement j'imagine et je vais confirmer s'applique à toutes les non-conformités possibles. C'est exact?
141. MME S. PERRON: C'est exact. Je suis entrain de penser à une procédure très spécifique avec le directeur musical pour la conformité et le contenu.
142. Me P. McCALLUM: C'est ça parce que -- et j'imagine que votre document réfletera ces autres discussions.
143. MME S. PERRON: Ça aussi, à la fois les procédures pour les bandes, oui.
144. Me P. McCALLUM: C'est ça. Merci. Et juste pour reprendre un peu de ce que vous avez dit ce matin, vous parliez de votre batterie pour votre magnétoscope et vous dites que la batterie permet de conserver en mémoire la programmation pour une durée de 13 minutes lorsque la moitié de la capacité de la batterie est utilisée.
145. Est-ce qu'il y a toujours quelqu'un dans la station, parce que 13 minutes, c'est pas longtemps? Si vous fonctionnez de façon mécanique, il y a personne dans la station; 13 minutes, c'est pas beaucoup de temps.
146. MME S. PERRON: Mais tout le monde va savoir qu'il y a une panne électriqe. C'est sûr s'il y a une panne électrique, ça conserve la programmation. Ça veut dire que personne a besoin de se déplacer à la station pour reprogrammer les magnétoscopes.
147. Me P. McCALLUM: Mais, si ça tombe en panne, est-ce que ça sonne en quelque part? Parce que souvent il y a des systèmes d'alarme avec les magnétoscopes qui informent disons le personnel qu'il y a une panne quelque part. Et le personnel serait en mesure de se rendre sur place ou de prendre les mesures correctives à l'intérieur de ces 13 minutes. Moi, c'est que j'ai pas confiance que les mesures entreprises seront suffisantes pour corriger la situation. Donc, je voulais juste être sûr que ces mesures seront suffisantes.
148. MME S. PERRON: En fait, en principe, il n'y a pas de panne d'électricité si fréquemment là.
149. Me P. McCALLUM: Mais disons que s'il y a panne d'électricité ---
150. MME S. PERRON: En principe, tout le monde le sait. Il y a plusieurs, plusieurs animateurs qui restent tous près autour de la station. Alors, en fait ça va ---
151. Me P. McCALLUM: S'il y a panne, vous cessez de diffuser?
152. MME S. PERRON: Oui, automatiquement. On cesse de diffuser, mais l'ordinateur va repartir tout seul, mais les magnétoscopes ne vont repartir tout seul après 15 minutes.
153. Me P. McCALLUM: Donc, il faut que quelqu'un se rendre dans la station pour ---
154. MME S. PERRON: Pour reprogrammer.
155. Me P. McCALLUM: --- pour reprogrammer.
156. MME S. PERRON: Oui.
157. Me P. McCALLUM: Et le magnétoscope.
158. MME S. PERRON: Moi, j'ai pensé à une batterie qui serait plus performante et qui pourrait garder la mémoire plus longtemps.
159. Me P. McCALLUM: Et pour la question du générateur, est-ce que vous allez acheter un générateur pour le cas ou?
160. MME S. PERRON: Je ne penserais pas du tout qu'on acheterais un générateur. On a pas d'argent pour ça, sauf que ça pourrait être un générateur qui nous est fourni par la municipalité, Hydro-Québec. Les gens sont entrain de discuter de mettre un service en place qui permettrait qu'on en ait une branchée permanente et ça (inaudible).
161. Me P. McCALLUM: Merci. Merci, Madame la Présidente.
162. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup et merci beaucoup, madame et monsieur.
163. MME L. POIRIER: Madame Wilson?
164. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oh, excusez-moi.
165. MME L. POIRIER: Juste mentionner avant que vous quittiez qu'on a pas d'intervenants qui ont demandé à comparaître, mais vous avez quand même droit à une période de réplique pour les interventions qu'on a au dossier. Vous avez 10 minutes pour présenter une réplique, si vous voulez vous prévaloir de cette possibilité là.
166. M. C. GAGNON: Juste une question. Je ne sais pas si j'ai bien compris. Est-ce que vous voulez qu'il vous soit déposé les rubans comme pièce pour que vous les vérifiez?
167. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Non.
168. Me P. McCALLUM: Pour l'instant, on a pas besoin. Merci.
169. M. C. GAGNON: Merci.

     RÉPLIQUE / REPLY

170. MME S. PERRON: Juste pour conclure, en fait je suis choquée je vais vous dire franchement. Je pense j'aurais eu -- j'aurais été vraiment mal à l'aise si j'avais su qu'il y avait eu tant d'infractions. Même si je n'étais pas là, j'ai quand même une certaine responsabilité. Et je vous remercierais de votre tolérance quelque part. Bon, c'est peut-être à moi qu'on passe les oreilles. Ça tombe comme ça et je vous assure que on serait mal placé que ça se reproduise. Et ça, j'ai bien compris vos ordonnances. Alors, on va établir des procédures et j'ai du travail à faire.
171. Je crois que ça tombe bien d'une façon. Je suis sensibilisée dès le début quelque part, mais j'aurais aimé qu'il y est des procédures déjà en place. Ça serait pas mal plus facile lorsqu'on rentre dans une station de savoir voici le dossier. Voici que c'est sérieux. Voici dans quelle état nous sommes et qu'est-ce qu'il faut faire. Et la demande de changement des paramètres de nuit aurait dû être fait depuis très longtemps. Je ne peux pas comprendre ça. J'avais pas compris.
172. Si vous ne voulez pas le faire, faite quelque chose pour vous conformer au moins. Et j'étais beaucoup plus sensibilisée à ça. J'étais pas au courant du processus des ordonnances, plus du CRTC. Il y a comme deux volets et j'ai mis un peu d'énergie pour dire faut qu'on aille voir l'ingénieur. De toute façon, j'ai pas de renouvellement de licence si je n'ai pas les certificats d'Industrie Canada. C'est pas mal de dossiers rapidement dans peu de semaines sur lesquels j'ai essayé de tout comprendre.
173. Alors, merci de vos explications et de la compréhension du sérieux de la chose. Moi, je pars avec ça. Et si ça réponds à votre question, vous allez voir une réponse bientôt par la fin de juillet.
174. LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup, madame. Et je voudrais dire n'hésitez pas à consulter notre personnel et bonne chance avec Industrie Canada.
175. MS L. POIRIER: We will now hear an applicatin by Community Radio Society of Saskatoon Inc. to renew its broadcasting licence for CFCR-FM expiring August 31^st 2001.
176. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

     APPLICATION / DEMANDE

177. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. My name is Chad Sapieha and I'm here to represent CFCR 90.5 FM, Saskatoon Community Radio. I have been with CFCR for about seven years. My first four years were spent as an on-air volunteer, then I became the station's News and Communications Director for three years. I was appointed to the position of Station Manager at the beginning of this month and I've done my best to familiarize myself with CFCR's past dealings with the CRTC. I hope that I will be able to answer any questions the Commission might have to its satisfaction.
178. My brief presentation will provide an overview of CFCR Community Radio 90.5 FM, including the challenges we face and the services we provide to the community. I will then examine the measures we have taken to address the concerns of the CRTC.
179. CFCR first signed on the air as a cable FM station in 1987. In 1991, CFCR moved to 90.5 FM on the Saskatoon radio dial. Since the beginning, CFCR has been powered primarily by volunteers. In fact, there are currently 40 volunteer hosts for every paid staff member. Many of CFCR's volunteers today have been with the station since the beginning and the Society's Board of Directors and staff rely on veteran volunteers not only to produce quality programming, but also for their experience and guidance.
180. It is often difficult for just three staff to coordinate the efforts of 120 volunteers, while at the same time attempting to handle the day to day operations of a radio station that's on the air 24 hours per day. Thus, we rely heavily on responsible veteran volunteers to assist the staff in whatever ways possible.
181. Our financial situation has always been troubling to say the least. Our current budget is a mere $160,000 composed in roughly equal parts of advertising sales, charity bingos and on-air fundraising. Sadly, we've had to make cutbacks in several areas recently, most notably paid staff. We now employ only three staff members who work overtime on a regular basis and have a combined salary of less than $60,000 per year.
182. I tell you this simply in hopes of raising awareness that it is a great struggle to keep CFCR operational and to properly manage all aspects of the organization. We do our best and we work to improve in whatever ways possible.
183. In light of our ever present financial dilemma, it is with great pride that we serve the community to the extent that we do. We have received several awards from local organizations for helping them in their endeavours, including the Saskatoon Symphony, the Canadian Red Cross, the United Way, the Saskatchewan International Children's Film Festival, the Fringe Festival and the National Campus and Community Radio Association just to name a few.
184. One of the achievements we are most proud of is our service to Saskatoon's multicultural community. CFCR currently broadcasts 16 programs that serve ethnic minorities in Saskatoon. Our current ethnic program line-up offers 18 hours of ethnic programming and serves the following communities: Philippino, Hindi, Cantonese, Croatian, Latin American, Polish, Mandarine, Punjabi, Ukrainian, Arabic, Assyrian, Eritrean, German, Russian, Italian and Romanian.
185. For many of these groups, CFCR represents the only public source of information for and about their communities. Local and national cultural organizations and the Government of Canada regularly use CFCR's ethnic programming to relay messages to non-Anglophone citizens. CFCR also acts as the primary media outlet for several ethnic events and organizations in the city, most notably FolkFest.
186. CFCR also attempts to deliver coverage of all local arts and entertainment events. We produce and broadcast several special programs that run during such events as the Saskatchewan Jazz Festival, which is on right now in Saskatoon, the Fringe Festival and FolkFest, while sponsoring other festivals such as the Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan Festival, the Saskatchewan International Children's Film Festival and the Ness Creek Festival.
187. CFCR's weekly entertainment program Babble publicizes performances, exhibitions, readings and books by local, provincial and national musicians, artist and writers. CFCR also works closely with local art galleries, theatres and music organizations to publicize their events.
188. One of CFCR's primary services to the community is to air public service announcements for local music, arts and sporting events, charities and other non-profit organizations. Not only does CFCR ask its hosts to read at least one public service announcement per hour, CFCR also broadcasts a community event calendar composed of as many as 10 PSAs four times daily.
189. CFCR is very proud of the amount of support it offers Canadian musicians by way of airplay, interviews and publicizing performances. CFCR is always in contact with Canadian labels, local night clubs, various promotions companies and actual musicians to insure that 90.5 FM is comprehensive source of information regarding Canadian music in Saskatoon.
190. A small sampling of Canadian bands and musicians we have interviewed in recent months includes: The Sadies, Lee Aaron, Holly Cole, The Cowboy Junkies, Ralph Alfonso, The Dirtmitts, Caroline Mark, The Flashing Lights, Ron Hawkins, King Cobb Steelie, The Smalls, Jerusalem Ridge, Metalwood, The Weakerthans, Veda Hillie, Liona Boyd, Sue Foley, Wide Mouth Mason, Ivars Taurins. The list goes on and on. As you can see, we are all over the musical spectrum, from commercial to independent and from rock to classical.
191. At this point, I would like to call to your attention the appendix at the back of your booklets. It contains a sampling of the many letters of support that we have received from local, provincial and national artists and organizations that believe that CFCR is an integral and invaluable media resource, not only in Saskatoon, but also in Saskatchewan as a whole. And these letters are in addition to the dozens of letters of support that were sent to the CRTC prior to the May 31^st deadline.
192. Some of the letters we've received, we have support from major labels such as Universal and Sony, and of independent labels as well like Smallman, Mint, Networks, Siren, Endearing, the G7 Welcoming Committee. And we have also received a lot of letters of support from other official organizations such as the Saskatoon Musicians' Association, the largest promoter in Saskatoon, Roadside Attractions, the Saskatoon Symphony, the mayor of the city and some festivals as well like the Jazz Festival and Fringe Festival. And you guys can look at those as you like.
193. CFCR is the only source of broadcast information and music in the province that publicizes the vast majority of independent, local, provincial and Canadian musicians that perform in Saskatoon. There is virtually where we've been called several times an oasis by passing bands and label representatives in the prairies because there just isn't much that independent bands can do in Saskatchewan anyways.
194. And of course, this brings us to the concern that the CRTC has concerning CFCR's apparent violation of his condition of licence regarding Canadian content in Category 2 music selections. We make no excuse for not adhering to the CRTC's required level of Canadian content for Category 2 music selections. We were very surprised to say the least to learn that our level was substandard. Period checks of Canadian content prior the CRTC's request to review our programming indicated that CFCR was in compliance with its condition of licence. Perhaps the week in question was an anomaly.
195. At any rate, CFCR's apparent failure to meet the condition of licence regarding Candian content caused our Program Director to reevaluate CFCR's Category 2 programming. CFCR's Board of Directors and station management strongly believe in adhering to and exceeding the CRTC's Canadian content requirements. Working together with CFCR's Program Director, we have initiated a series of programming changes that should insure that CFCR meets and exceeds CRTC requirements for Canadian content in Category 2 music selections.
196. The first of these program changes involved the creation of the Royal Canadian Music Parade, the RCMP for short. It's a new purely Canadian music program that airs every weekday at noon. We estimate that this show accounts for seven percent of all Category 2 music broadcast on CFCR. The hosts of CFCR's morning program, Green Eggs & Ham, which airs only Category 2 music, have been asked to raise the level of Canadian music they broadcast from 35 percent to 50 percent. Green Eggs & Ham accounts for 28 percent of all Category 2 music broadcast on CFCR.
197. The remaining 45 hours of Category 2 music broadcast on CFCR every week are found in various open music and specialty shows. All hosts who broadcast Category 2 music have been asked to insure that at least 35 percent of the category 2 music that they broadcast is Canadian content. Once the math is done and assuming all CFCR hosts are following our guidelines, roughly 44 percent of all category 2 music selection broadcast on CFCR should now be Canadian content. And if you look at the chart on page 5 of your booklets, you will see how we arrived at this number.
198. We simply attempted to figure out how many songs we played, our category 2 music each week and this number corresponds with the numbers that were in our last report from the CRTC. It's about 20 songs less I think. And then we tried to figure out how many songs we had to play in each hour and how many that we are currently playing. And it looks according to the numbers that we are now in compliance.
199. Weekly checks performed by CFCR's Program Director Theo Kivol indicate that in actuality, the levels tend to fluctuate between 38 percent and 45 percent due to some specialty programming problems. But we are still well over the CRTC's required amount. While it is difficult for CFCR's meagre staff to police the actions of all volunteer hosts, the Program Director is keeping a watchful eye on daytime programs that play category 2 music, making certain that they follow the guidelines presented to them.
200. As an added precaution, CFCR's overnight multi-disc player is now filled with Canadian music only, ensuring that, should an early morning host not be able to make it in to host his or her program, the Canadian content requirement for that time period will still be met. Also, Canadian content information sheets are posted in plain view, informing hosts of their responsibilities regarding Canadian content. And all new hosts are briefed on their duty to play Canadian music selections.
201. The other concern to address is CFCR's request to lower the number of ethnic programs it is required to broadcast from 16 to 10. I hasten to add that we have absolutely no intention of eliminating any of our current ethnic programs and that we would in fact gladly welcome additional ethnic programs. However, in a community as small as Saskatoon, it is sometimes difficult to recruit new ethnic programs and, should one of our current programs cease broadcasting for any reason, we aren't sure that we could replace it.
202. Some of the ethnic communities that are ethnic program served are as small as 50 or 60 people, making it almost impossible to find a member of the community willing to produce and broadcast a weekly show. In addition, we have a particular number of hours allocated to ethnic programming each week. Should any ethnic program cease to broadcast, we would try to link then other currently existing ethnic programs so that we would keep the same number of ethnic programming and broadcast hours.
203. As mentioned earlier, CFCR is very proud of the number of ethnic communities it serves. It is our intention to continue to serve ethnic minorities in Saskatoon to the very best of our abilities.
204. In researching this request, we have discovered that CFCR is something of a rarity in Canadian community radio in regards to the number of ethnic communities served compared to the broadcast area population base. The Campus Station in Halifax for example, a city of roughly the same size, offers only seven ethnic programs.
205. A community station in Vancouver, a city many, many times the size of Saskatoon, offers only the same number of ethnic programs as Saskatoon's CFCR. A student operated radio station in Vancouver offers only six ethnic programs and a community station that's serving Waterloo and Kithchener recently lowered its number of ethnic programs from 13 to 10.
206. In light of these facts we believe that CFCR's request to lower the number of required ethnic programs it broadcast is reasonable. That concludes my presentation and thank you for your attention.
207. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sapieha. I'm going to turn over to Commissioner Williams. But before we do that, I'd like to ask our legal counsel to read to you and into the record the information that we read earlier in French regarding mandator orders, just so that you understand exactly the nature of your appearance here today.
208. Me L. BENNETT: Thank you. Good morning.
209. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Good morning.
210. Me L. BENNETT: I'll just take a few minutes to talk about the possible issuance of a mandatory order, which is before the Panel today.
211. A mandatory order may be issued under Section 12 of the Broadcasting Act. The relevant portions of Section 12 are Subsection 12(1), which says:

"Where it appears to the Commission that

1. Subsection 12(2) of the Act provides that,

   "The Commission may, by order, require any person to do any act or thing that such person is or may be required to pursuant to any licence or decision issued by the Commission and may, by order, forbid the doing or continuing of any act or thing that is contrary to any such licence, decision or order."

2. In the case of Community Radio Society of Saskatoon, what is under discussion today is the possibility of issuing a mandatory order requiring compliance with its condition of licence requiring that CFCR-FM braodcast a minimum level of 33 percent Canadian content for category 2 selections each week.
3. To summarize what a mandatory order will entail in this case, after hearing and considering the matter, the Panel may decide to issue a mandatory order, which would be filed with the Federal Court of Canada and served personally on CFCR-FM in the usual fashion that any court document may be served. Thereafter, under Section 13(1) of the Act, the Commission's mandatory order would in fact become an order of the court and would be enforceable in the same manner as any court order.
4. Under the Federal Cour Rules, anyone who disobeys an order of the Federal Court is guilty of contempt of court. So, if a mandatory order were issued and CFCR-FM subsequently failed to comply with its Canadian content requirement, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the court and then after, a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada.
5. CFCR-FM would be entitled to present a defense, and if found guilty of contempt, it would be subject to a fine as set out by the court. As you're aware, CFCR-FM has been called upon today to show cause at this hearing why a mandatory order should not be issued. This means that you have the burden of convincing the Panel why the Commission should not be issue a mandatory order. I trust this makes the mandatory order procedures clear.
6. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes, it does.
7. Me L. BENNETT: I'll just note further that the current Regulation now requires 35 percent Canadian content. Thank you.
8. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Bennett. Commissioner Williams.
9. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Sapieha.
10. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes.
11. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm going to lead you through a series of questions. I guess the objective that we're hoping to achieve here is we want to examine the reasons behind the licensee's second consecutive failure to comply with its conditional licence, requiring it to broadcast a weekly minimum of 33 percent Canadian content of category 2. And ro review and examine the steps that you've put into place to insure compliance with the new regulatory requirement to broadcast a weekly minimum of 35 percent Canadian content in category 2. And to review the steps and mechanisms that CFCR-FM has in place to insure that it will meet all of its community type B regulatory programming requirements as set out in the new community radio policy.
12. So, I'll begin now with the first question. It will be two years next week since you last -- not yourself personally, but since CFCR last appeared before us. At that time, you appeared due to CFCR-FM's failure to comply with its conditional licence requiring that the station broadcast a weekly minimum of 33 percent Canadian content category 2, as well as regulatory non-compliance in areas of the provision of logger tapes.
13. During the licence term, logger tapes were requested for the week of 28^th May to 3^rd of June 2000. An analysis revealed a weekly level of 28.1 percent Canadian content in category 2 music. Then, it constituted a second consecutive failure of CFCR-FM to comply with its conditional licence requiring that it broadcasts a minimum weekly level of 33 percent Canadian content.
14. Could you please review for us the reasons behind this second consecutive failure of CFCR-FM to comply with this conditional licence?
15. MR. C. SAPIEHA: As I think I mentioned in my presentation, one of our biggest problems at CFCR is that we have a very small staff that tries to regulate what everybody on the air is trying to play. What we do is review the weekly set of music list to find out whether or not people are playing what they're supposed to be playing. And over the last two years, since our last somewhat dismal report from the CRTC, we've tried very hard to change everything that we had problems with before and we succeeded in every area apparently except for Canadian content.
16. The reason why we're probably not playing -- why we weren't playing enough Canadian content in that particular week could be any number of reasons. We have a lot of specialty programs in the evening that, while we tell them they're required to broadcast 35 percent Canadian content, they focus on special kinds of music that don't lend themselves to a lot of Canadian content because of the style of music. So, they might come in with only 10 or 15 percent or something like that.
17. Another problem for this particular week that was in review was that some of the early morning show hosts weren't able to show up and our overnight multi-disc player played unfortunately a mixture of some Canadian and some non-Canadian music, not much Canadian. And we've hopefully rectified that simply by adding -- well, making the multi-disc player nothing but Canadian content.
18. Basically, our biggest problem is trying to get our hosts to play what it is we want them to play in terms of Canadian content. And with three staff, even if we were to work consecutive shifts for the entire week, we still wouldn't be there to supervise every single host that's on the air, which makes it really difficult. And then, once we come in, we have to try to still somehow find the time to go through the logs that they've done and see if they are doing what they're supposed to be doing. And then, try to reprimand them for what it is that they've done wrong. And it's a daunting task.
19. I think some of the changes we've made, particularly to the programming that we can actually monitor because now we're monitoring our early morning programs and increasing the Canadian content of those programs to 50 percent. And we're also monitoring the daytime programs as well. And I think that what that is doing is the actual having a person there who can actually tell our hosts you have to play Canadian content is really helping to up our Canadian content level for category 2 music selections. Because with the night time host, it's get very difficult for us to actually try to tell them what it is they're supposed to play and then reprimand them and well just go through the whole process.
20. Again, it's a matter of manpower. We're hoping that we have the problem licked simply by making it so that there's more Canadian content during the times that we can actually monitor and be there.
21. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr. Sapieha. You can't just meet with these people or give them a letter or like you feel you have to be there personally in order to achieve compliance?
22. MR. C. SAPIEHA: We have posters up on the walls. We have host meetings, roughly once every six months. Every new host that comes into the station is given -- like reads our host manual which explains to people that they are supposed to be playing a certain amount of Canadian content. We do probably on the order of about -- I'm not sure because I'm not the Program Director. But our Program Director from my perspective meets with our host, like various particular hosts about maybe five or six per week, just to talk to them about their programs and what it is they have to do more of.
23. Like, some will comply very readily and others won't comply very readily. And they use excuses which ---
24. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you considered letting a non-compliant host find another place to amuse himself because he can't play by your rules?
25. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes. We have actually but it's also -- this might seem surprising but it's also difficult to find hosts to fit in with our schedule at certain times of the day. Because we have -- the way the CFCR program schedule is metered out is that it has certain times of the day where certain kinds of musics are played, which helps our advertising sales because certain kinds of music are more conducive to selling advertising than other kinds of music obviously.
26. So, what we've tried to do is keep the -- we'll just keep a schedule that is in a block format. And sometimes, like right now for instance, our Program Director is hosting I think seven programs himself because he hasn't found suitable hosts to fill those empty time slots. So, it's not as easy as just getting rid of somebody and finding somebody new because we don't get a lot of applications from people to do new shows, even though we do have announcements on the air saying we're looking for new hosts. And we're always like eager to welcome people into the station. We don't always get the people who are interested in doing what we need them to do.
27. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At your last appearance before us on the 28^th of June 1999, you assured the Commission that a number of steps and measures currently or soon to be put in place would insure CFCR-FM's compliance with its regulatory community policy and condition of licence commitments at all times. Regarding your category 2 Canadian content, conditional licensee's measures included a monthly audit for Canadian content be conducted by the station's Programming Committee and a weekly music list inspection by the Program Director to verify Canadian content and bring any problems to the attention of the program hosts.
28. Can you elaborate on the reasons? And I know you've started to in your response to the previous question. But can you give us a bit more on why these steps have failed? Like I heard it's hard to get hosts. You need to be there. And you stated in your 15^th of January 2001 letter that the week shortfall on Canadian content was due to the fact four hours automated music was substituted for live during the 6:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.
29. Can you explain to us how only four hours of programming out of a 126 hour broadcast week can be so critical to insuring compliance?
30. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Obviously those four hours weren't the only reason for the lack of compliance. There were several reasons. There was that. There was also, as I mentioned before, the specialty programs we have in the evening sometimes can't fill up that amount. We also experience a problem with the people who were -- well, it wasn't really a problem so much as it was difficulty.
31. When we submitted our music list, we had several music selections which they claimed they had no idea whether or not they were Canadian content or not. And we spent a week researching these -- I'm not sure exactly what the number was. I think it was close to a hundred music selections that they said perhaps weren't Canadian content. So, we looked and we tried to find documented information that these artists were in fact Canadian and we succeeded but only on the order of about -- I think it was about 60 percent of what we had said, or maybe it was 70 percent or something like that.
32. And the problem with that was that we play a lot of local musicians who just give us demo tapes or CDs, like demo CDs that they've created themselves. And it's really tough to sometimes track them down and find out and get some official documentation. There were also other bands that were no longer in existence that we played. So, like the CD exists but they stopped -- the band itself stopped existing like six years ago and we couldn't find documentation that said that they were in fact Canadian band.
33. So, I guess that was one of the bigger problems. They kept our Program Director busy for a really long time for a whole week, trying to just figure out which of these bands he could actually show proof were Canadian. So, I think that our levels would have been bumped up slightly after that as well.
34. And again, we were surprised because we were checking our levels for Canadian content leading up to that week. We check about every second week and we had no problems before that. We were always coming in around 35 or 38 percent. And then, after the -- like recently, only in the last three months, we've initiated these new things. And now, when our Program Director is checking it, he says that we're between 38 and 45 percent Canadian content on a weekly basis.
35. So, again I think -- I hope that everything is in compliance right now. And we were surprised that it wasn't compliance when you checked.
36. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, you do every two weeks a music list inspection?
37. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes. Assuming our Music Director has enough time and he's made that a priority for us or our Programming Director is also our Music Director. He's made it a priority to try to check the sheets but it takes a great deal of time from his very busy schedule already, but he realizes how important it is, which is why he's made it a priority.
38. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, on the 28^th of June, you told us that you would to do this. Your Program Director would do this on a weekly basis. Why have you changed it to every two weeks?
39. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Less staff. We've had to make cutbacks.
40. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess from what I'm trying to figure out here is, is this repeated failure to operate in compliance a question of incompetent station management, lacks application of enforcement of internal station policies or a sign that the licensee has a lack of respect or disregard for the Commission and the regulatory policy regimes, honour which is privileged to hold a licence? That's what I'm trying to figure out through these questions.
41. What I'm hearing is it's financially challenged. It's majority volunteers and your three staff members can't be everywhere at once. Is there anything more that you can add to that?
42. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Well, I believe -- I'm not sure but I believe that our past station manager, the one who recently stepped down because he realized the station could no longer afford to pay him. He was -- I think another one of the reasons why he decided to step down was to show that CFCR would like to see fresh new management in the station. He certainly wasn't imcompetent but I think that he realized that it is a show of action that we have actually taken steps to have new management, perhaps give the station a new feel and perhaps a new direction.
43. And I note that the Board of Directors is very keen on my particular ability as a station manager to have better organization, which I hope to bring to the station. I was just, as I said, appointed only like three weeks ago. So, I think that's it. We definitely do not have any contempt for the CRTC Regulations at all.
44. We strongly believe in supporting Canadian music and, as I've said, CFCR plays such a huge -- it's a wide variety of Canadian content that is not found in any other station in the province, let alone the city. And like we pride ourselves on the fact that we do support Canadian and local artists and regional artists to the extent that we do. It seems like every day we have two or three interviews with different bands, local or outside of that.
45. So I mean, if you would include that with our Canadian content, there's another hour of Canadian content a day simply because we're having them on the air and they're talking about their music and stuff like that. And we always publicize every like local performer and regional performer when they come to the city. We do everything we can to help the Canadian music scene. So, it's not that we don't have any -- that we lack respect for the rules. It's just that our format and our problems are perhaps outside the scope of regular CRTC rulings.
46. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have applied for a licence renewal under the provisions of the new Community Radio Policy Public Notice CRTC 2000-13. Please outline the steps you have taken or will take -- and I recognize some of what you will say now was said earlier in your opening remarks. But outline the steps you have taken or will take to insure that CFCR-FM will comply with this new regulatory requirement to broadcast a weekly minimum of 35 percent Canadian content in category 2 music?
47. MR. C. SAPIEHA: The steps we have taken essentially include hopefully greater host awareness. We are really trying to drill home the fact in all of our new hosts that they are supposed to play this much and that our very broadcast licence depends on them playing this music. We have signs up all over the station explaining to people that they have to be in compliance and we have host manuals available for people to actually see if they're following all of our rules.
48. Our Program Director meets on a regular basis. He tries to probably meet four to five hosts per week to explain to them what it is they're doing right, what it is they're doing wrong. And in those meetings, he always brings up Canadian content. We have created the new music program, the Royal Canadian Music Parade in prime time hours. It's a noon hour program that is 100 percent Canadian content, which roughly accounts for seven percent of all of our category 2 music selections for the week.
49. And we have also increased our Green Eggs & Ham, our morning program's Canadian content from 35 percent to 50 percent. That is something that we can in fact monitor and regulate on a regular basis because we are there to monitor and regulate them. And if we notice that after like half an hour, they haven't played very much Canadian content, we go in there and we say you have to play -- the next half hour has to be all Canadian because you're not keeping up with your Canadian content.
50. And in fact, some of our hosts -- actually a couple of our newer hosts play probably closer to 90 percent Canadian content on their early morning programs, which makes us really happy because some of our hosts don't quite make the mark sometimes. So, we're hoping that everything balances out. Like I said, recent checks indicate that we're between 38 and 35 percent right now. So, I think we've hopefully taken all the measures necessary to get us up to snuff.
51. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A number of other new policy and regulatory requirements flow from the revised Community Radio Policy. These include a minimum 12 percent Canadian content commitment in category 3 music, an acceptance of conditional licence to broadcast a minimum of 20 percent of musical selections from content categories other than subcategory 21, pop, rock and dance, and to devote during each broadcast week a minimum of five percent of musical selection to selections from content category 3, special interest music.
52. Given CFCR-FM's history of compliance problems, what steps have been taken to insure that you operate in compliance with these new policy and regulatory requirements at all times?
53. MR. C. SAPIEHA: These particular categories are categories that we've never really had much problem with because of the format of the station. Because we are a community radio station, we play a lot of ethnic music, a lot of jazz, a lot of classical music, lots of folk country, blues, roots music. We are kind of all over the spectrum, which is perhaps one of the reasons why we have a difficult time keeping up with the typical category 2 music selections for Canadian content.
54. I think that that's not going to be a really big problem for us. It hasn't been a problem for us in the past. Category 3 I think we're already -- I'm not sure the last -- our last report I think had us at like 11.8 percent category 3 Canadian content. So, we have to improve there by .2 percent. And I'm not actually sure. I don't have the numbers in front of me from our Program Director what he's found in terms of those areas. But he's aware of the new regulations and he hasn't brought any problems to my attention. So, I assume that we are in compliance with the new regulations.
55. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As a new manager, you will follow up though. You won't wait until either he or we identify a problem area.
56. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes, I will.
57. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This next selection of questions that I'm going to go through with you, Mr. Sapieha, deals with whether or not the Commission should issue a mandatory order and legal counsel outlined the ramifications of that action. Since CFCR-FM was first awarded its licence in 1991, it has been renewed three times in each of the three licence terms. A monitor of CFCR-FM programming found the station in non-compliance with either the regulations, a conditional licence or a combination of both.
58. To the best of your knowledge, can you assure the Commission that at this moment, the station's programming complies entirely with the conditions of licence as set out in the new Community Radio Policy and with the Regulations?
59. MR. C. SAPIEHA: To the best of my knowledge, yes. Except perhaps concerning the category 3, which I haven't talked with the -- I haven't spoken with our Program Director about. But he hasn't brought it up to my attention, which leads me to believe that we are in fact in compliance.
60. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. In view of your repeated history of non-compliance and your failure over the current licence term to fulfil the promises and assurances given in 1999 when you last appeared before us, why should the Commission believe that your assurances will be born out?
61. MR. C. SAPIEHA: I would hope that the Commission would believe that our assurances are legitimate because of a couple reasons, the first being that we have outlined our steps and they are legitimate steps. We have actually taken these steps and they are in place right now. And secondly, hopefully with new management comes new vigour and hopefully we will be able to breath in a bit of new life to the station and make our hosts know just how important this is.
62. Actually, the response we got from the community and from hosts when we found out that we might have to come to this hearing and then, when we found out that we did, was tremendous. Especially from our hosts, which made us very, very hopeful that they have the station's best interest at heart and not simply their own -- what they want to do with their particular shows and stuff.
63. We were very surprised that so many people came forward to support us at that point. And I think then that that means that they are very interested in complying, because it's a massive volunteer effort. The volunteers have to be the ones who are interested in complying and in doing what they're supposed to do. And I think that they are in fact very excited about trying to keep the station on the air. And as I've said, everything seems to be running in perfect order.
64. Actually, we were really surprised. Like since our last -- we've solved all the problems that we've had in prior CRTC dealings, except for the Canadian content one which -- and we worked really to solve all of those problems. A big part of that was our new manager that we had for the last couple of years. He made sure that we had like the proper logger tape systems and that he checked all the music play lists himself. Not even just the Music Director, but he checked the playlist to make sure that they were getting filled out on a regular basis, something which I am continuing to do myself.
65. I really think that we are I guess in a really good state of mind to comply with the CRTC. Everybody is quite interested in making sure the station survives. So, I think that the station feels like a new entity right now, not like it was before and hopefully, all the problems of the past won't rise again.
66. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you received a copy of the Circular 444? It's to all licensees of radio programming undertakings and its "Practices Regarding Radio Non-compliance" is how it's entitled. Anyway, it's not that important if you have it right now, but you may want to take a copy of this and share it with your volunteers so that it helps educate them and it will help you perform the task of the challenge you have ahead of you.
67. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Where can I -- do you have copies that I can take?
68. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On our website for sure and Mr. Burnside has a copy for you there. You may want to just let them know how serious the situation of non-compliance is. This document will really help you do that.
69. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Okay.
70. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to the possible issuance of a mandatory order as outlined in the Notice of Public Hearing, do you wish to provide any further evidence to indicate that the station CFCR-FM is now and will remain in compliance with his conditions of licence and the Regulations? If you have anything further to add, this is your opportunity.
71. MR. C. SAPIEHA: I don't think I do. I think I've pretty much said everything that we prepared and came to say.
72. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right. This next series of questions, the objective is to clarify. The licensee is also requesting reduction in the number of ethnic groups it will be served by conditional licence. So, the first question, in the area of ethnic programming, your current conditions of licence require that you devote in each broadcast week a minimum of 15 hours 30 minutes to ethnic programs and to direct this programming to a minimum of 16 cultural groups and a minimum of 16 different languages.
73. You have requested amendments to reduce the minimum number of hours from 15.5 to 10 and the languages from 16 to 10. With respect to cultural groups, would you continue to direct ethnic programming to 16 groups? And if not, to how many?
74. MR. C. SAPIEHA: We intend to keep our ethnic programming at 16 or more if we can. It's one of the things we're most proud of at CFCR. There have been times when we've been as high as 18. It's simply a matter of finding members of the community, of those particular ethnic communities who are willing to host the show. As I've said, some of them are really small, like 50 members, many of whom don't even speak any English, which makes it very difficult for us to even figure out what it is they want to play on their shows and stuff.
75. And any time a new ethnic show comes on, they get priority over any other host who is willing to volunteer his or her time because we strongly believe in supporting the ethnic communities in the city because we're their only outlet for public information and services.
76. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At your last renewal, CFCR-FM made a similar request to amend its licence by reducing the minimum number of cultural groups and languages to be served. This request was denied in CRTC Decision 2000-31. In keeping with the Commission's long extending practice to deny licence amendments requested by licensees that are in non-compliance, you are again before us due to non-compliance.
77. Why should the Commission approve these requested licence amendments in view of your non-compliance? If your requests are denied, how would it impact on CFCR-FM?
78. MR. C. SAPIEHA: I'll answer the latter part of that question first. Assuming that nobody -- assuming that all of our ethnic program hosts decide to stay on for the foreseeable future, it wouldn't impact us really at all because we are hoping to keep at least that many if not more. We're simply afraid that if for some reason we're unable to replace one, then we would be violating one of our conditions of licence, which is what we are very afraid of because we don't want to violate any of our conditions of licence.
79. So, what we -- actually, what's the first part of the question again?
80. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Commission has a long extending practice to deny licence amendments requested by licensees that are in non-compliance. So, why should the Commission approve these requested licence amendments in view of your non-compliance?
81. MR. C. SAPIEHA: The reason why I would hope that the Commission would accept our request to lower our required number of ethnic programs is I think that -- well, I hope that the Commission notes that we have improved in every area that we've had problems with, even in Canadian content, even though we didn't get it up to where it was supposed to be and that we were ourselves very surprised that our Canadian content wasn't where it was supposed to be for that particular week.
82. So, I'm hoping that the Commission notes that CFCR is genuine and sincere in its wishes to comply with CRTC Regulations and that we are doing the best that we can given our limited resources financially and in terms of staff power and that we intend to and we hope that currently right now, we are in fact complying with CRTC Regulations.
83. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Sapieha. I have no further questions at this time and I'll turn you back to Chair Wilson.
84. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Sapieha, I've been listening to your conversation with Commissioner Williams and there are two words that you were using a lot. One of them was surprised and the other was hopefully. And I guess I'm not completely reassured when I hear you say that you were really surprised that you were out of compliance. You talked about how you had solved all of the other problems except Canadian content and I kind of smiled to myself because I thought well, Canadian content is what it's all about. The logger tapes are about Canadian content. The playlists are about Canadian content. So, you solved those problems but you don't solve the Canadian content problem.
85. And I guess you know you seem very earnest, although it might help if you weren't chewing gum while you were talking to us. But the fact that you keep saying you know hopefully we'll do better, trust us we're committed, we're sincere. You know the last time you were here, you said the same thing. So, what's different now? You talked about having signs up. You talked about host meetings happening every six months. Then you said that hosts were met with several times a week.
86. Do you have written procedures that you give out to your volunteer hosts? Do you have in place procedures for regular training of these people? You said you have a host manual. Have you submitted that to us? Have you submitted anything that demonstrates that you're taking this seriously besides saying you know well, we've got the signs up? I mean do they read? Can your hosts read? Do you consider it a privilege to have this broadcasting licence and do they? Because that's what it's about and it's a privilege that's not to be abused.
87. So, I think that I personally would like some more reassurance. I'm a big believer in community radio and I think that the role that community radio plays in the broadcasting system is vital in terms of the exposure that it gives to artists that just never hit the air on mainstream stations. So, I'm -- you know maybe my lawyers would say you're saying a predisposition but you know generally speaking, it's very important to me to see community stations and campus stations survive. But I guess what I need to hear from you is a stronger level of commitment.
88. Maybe it's just that you're not using the words that are expressing it in a way that would communicate it to me but I want to give you an opportunity to be more committed verbally.
89. MR. C. SAPIEHA: If earlier in these proceedings I wasn't using as strong a language as you might have desired, it's because I want to be completely honest with you. Like we are completely sincere in our wish to comply with the CRTC, but as I've said, it's extremely difficult for us to monitor all of the actions and insure everything. We do in fact have a volunteer manual that our hosts have. We have not submitted it to you unfortunately. We could. I don't have a copy with me but we definitely can do that for you. I think it's about 15 pages and it has eveything.
90. We also have a host contract that hosts have to sign before they even begin hosting a show. I believe it's nine stipulations that they have to follow in order ---
91. THE CHAIRPERSON: But there are no consequences if they don't. Right? Because you have trouble getting hosts. So, how can you enforce it if there are no consequences?
92. MR. C. SAPIEHA: We are actually -- it's interesting you should bring that up because right now, we are in a period of -- what we have done is to eliminate host apathy, we have recently begun a program for our volunteers, which states they have to sign the contract. This contract is actually new. It only came up about two months ago. And it goes in three-month periods and if they do not meet all of their ---
93. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commitments.
94. MR. C. SAPIEHA: --- all of their commitments, what's going to happen is they're going to have their program removed and our Program Director is going to host any programs that are removed. We're expecting -- the first three-month contract comes to an end at the end of June and we're expecting that our Program Director is going to have to probably host an extra 10 to 15 programs per week until we can fill those problems.
95. I didn't really want to bring that up while I was here because we haven't actually taken any steps to eliminate any of these programs yet. We're supposed to at the end of June and I didn't want to bring up something that was still in the implementation phase because we haven't actually taken any firm steps to get rid of these hosts.
96. THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be reassuring to the Commission that you are planning to take steps, that there are going to be consequences.
97. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Mh'm. There are going ---
98. THE CHAIRPERSON: Because that's the kind of reassurance that the Commission is looking for, especially if there are repeated appearances for non-compliance.
99. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Okay. Well, we are in fact doing this and some of the regulations don't apply for all of our hosts because some of our hosts just play ethnic music or jazz music. So, it doesn't really -- like some of the things don't apply to them. But we've had all of our hosts out of a 120, except for about 10, sign these contracts. And the 10 who didn't sign these contracts are very adamant that they don't think that they should have to follow the rules that we set out for them. Because they think that they're giving the station enough volunteer time as is and that they don't have to worry about planning their show based around our regulations.
100. And those are the people who are probably going to be eliminated at the end of the month, which is actually kind of sad because some of them have very good shows, aside from the fact that they don't necessarily follow all of our regulations.
101. THE CHAIRPERSON: Or our regulations.
102. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Or your regulations too. Sorry about that. So, this host contract is in fact in place right now. And I think though outside -- like according to what we -- according to our checks outside of even the contract or perhaps because of the contract, because all of this stuff that I've mentioned, all of our programming changes mostly have happened within the last two months and the contracts started two months ago. Ever since we started checking our logs, since then we have been in compliance and in fact exceeded the CRTC ---
103. THE CHAIRPERSON: Except remarkably for that one week for which we've requested logger tapes.
104. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes, but ---
105. THE CHAIRPERSON: Coincidentally.
106. MR. C. SAPIEHA: That was a year and -- that was -- like I'm talking for the last two or three months that we have been checking, ever since we got our last notice.
107. THE CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest to you that you might want to talk to some of the other community and campus stations that have found themselves in the same or similar situation and get some ideas from them about training policies and procedures that you might put into place. That might help you deal with some of these issues. I know that there's a national association of campus and community radio stations and I'm sure that there are other station managers out there who deal with the same kinds of challenges that you do and who have come up with some good ideas and strategies for dealing with those. I would encourage you to do that.
108. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Do you have any other suggestions that we might be able to follow up on?
109. THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure staff could come up with a few ideas for you. I think our legal counsels have some questions.
110. Me L. BENNETT: Thank you. I just have two questions of clarification. You've talked a bit about the number of ethnic groups that you will direct your programming to. And for the purposes of your request to amend your condition of licence, we just to make sure that we have it clearly on the record what exactly you're requesting.
111. Just to reiterate, your current condition of licence requires you to devote in each broadcast week a minimum of 15 hours and 30 minutes to ethnic programs and to direct the programming to a minimum of 16 cultural groups and a minimum of 16 different languages. So, you've requested amendments to reduce the minimum number of hours from 15.5 to 10 and languages from 16 to 10.
112. With respect to cultural groups, would you continue to direct the ethnic programming to 16 groups? And if not, how many? Like, are you requesting to reduce the number of groups on your condition of licence?
113. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes. I would say groups. We actually have -- like we have -- currently we have 16 groups serving 16 languages and what would be difficult for us to replace would be languages and groups combined. So, what we're hoping is that you guys will lower our required number to 10 for that.
114. Like we have -- we still are going to try to keep up the number of hours that we have and we're also going to try to keep up the number of programs as well. But we are hoping that -- like what would be difficult to replace would be the actual people who speak different languages serving a different group. So, it's actually I would say both, the community and -- or the groups and the language.
115. Me L. BENNETT: So, it would be 10-10-10.
116. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Yes.
117. Me L. BENNETT: Thank you. One last thing. You mentioned earlier that you would be willing to submit to the Commission your host manual and I would like to ask you if you would also be willing to submit a sample host contract that you've talked about?
118. MR. C. SAPIEHA: No problem. We can do that. We can like probably courrier it to you.
119. Me L. BENNETT: Okay. By what date could you submit those two documents?
120. MR. C. SAPIEHA: I would say by next Friday. So, that would June -- I'm not exactly sure.
121. Me L. BENNETT: The 29^th.
122. MR. C. SAPIEHA: The 29^th, yes.
123. Me L. BENNETT: Okay. Thank you. June 29^th. Thank you. I have no more questions.
124. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Williams.
125. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The mail service is pretty good and the financially challenged organizations save the courrier fee. And just get it in the mail and it only takes a couple of days to get here.
126. THE CHAIRPERSON: A very good point. I was thinking the same thing. Spend your money on printing up policies and procedures for your hosts.
127. Now, although there are no interveners, there is an opportunity for you to reply to any interventions that may have been written and filed as part of the record at this proceeding. So, I'll offer you that opportunity right now.
128. MR. C. SAPIEHA: We don't wish to reply to any interventions.
129. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sapieha.
130. We're going to take a break. It's 11:10 or between 10 and 15 after. We'll come at 11:30 with Rogers Broadcasting. Thank you very much for being with us and work hard.
131. MR. C. SAPIEHA: Thanks.

     --- Upon recessing at 11:13 a.m. / L'audience est suspendue à 11h13.

     --- Upon resuming at 11:35 a.m. / L'audience est reprise à 11h35.

132. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, gentlemen. You may commence any time you're ready.
133. Mr. Secretary, I believe you a formal announcement.
134. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Yes. The next item to be heard is an application by Rogers Broadcasting Limited to renew the licence of radio station CKBY-FM Ottawa which expires the 31^st of August 2001. You may proceed when you're ready.

     APPLICATION / DEMANDE

135. MR. G. MILES: Madam Chair, Vice-Chair Wylie and Commissioners, I am Gary Miles, Executive Vice-President Radio Operations, Rogers Broadcasting Limited. With me today are Scott Parsons, Vice-President and General Manager of CKBY-FM on my immediate left, Al Campagnola, Prgram Director, CKBY-FM, and joining us also Alain Strati, Director of Regulatory Affairs, Rogers Media.
136. We are before you today to present the renewal application for CKBY-FM and in particular, to respond to the Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2001-5 in which the Commission required us to show cause why a mandatory order should not be issued pursuant to Section 12(2) of the Broadcasting Act. Later in our presentation, Scott will set out the many rasons why we believe that CKBY-FM provides an outstanding radio service for listeners here in Ottawa and indeed throughout the Ottawa Valley.
137. I will begin by addressing the question of the mandatory order. We recognize that it is our responsibility and our obligation at all times to operate our radio stations in full compliance with the policies and regulations established by the Commission, and in full compliance with the specific terms and conditions attached to each licence. We have established detailed staff training and reporting procedures to ensure that we meet all of our responsibilities and discharge all of our obligations.
138. The Program Directors at Rogers Broadcasting radio stations understand that it is part of their job to ensure that their programming complies with the rules on Canadian content and hits. Each radio station compiles a weekly compliance report for my review. That report sets out in detail the number of selections that were played, the number and percentage that were Canadian, and the number and percentage that were hits.
139. In light of the extensive compliance monitoring practices that we have in place, we were gravely concerned when we received a letter from the Commission in November of 1999 with respect to a monitor of CKBY-FM programming conducted over the week of May the 9^th, 1999. That letter advised us the Commission had determined that 768 of 1497 category 2 selections, or 51.3 percent were hits. We were concerned that our compliance control system was not meeting our goal of 100 percent compliance. We were concerned as well that it was the second time in three years that the system had failed us.
140. Upon receiving the Commission's letter, we immediately took steps to identify and resolve the problem. At that time, the playlist for CKBY-FM was being compiled, taking into acount charts from three sources: Billboard 100 Singles; The Record Country; and the Billboard Hot Country. However, in Public Notice CRTC 1997-42, the Commission determined that English-language FM radio stations in the Ottawa-Hull and Montreal markets should also consult the RPM 100 Country Tracks. Our compliance system failed to recognize that policy change and therefore, did not capture selections that were identified as hits on the RPM 100 Country Tracks chart.
141. In our written response to the Commission's letter, we acknowledged our error, and set out the steps that we had taken to ensure that there would be no further problems with the classification of hits and non-hits on CKBY. We advised you that one, we had subscribed to RPM for its Country Tracks charting service. Two, we purchased the Kennedy Reference CD ROM. Three, we revised our weekly monitoring and reporting mechanisms and the development of our playlists to ensure that all four charts were now taken into account.
142. Since November 1999, CKBY-FM has operated in full compliance with the requirement that it maintain the level of hits below 49 percent each week. We have made available our internal compliance reports for the past six months, and have filed those with the Commission.
143. In addition, upon receiving a letter from the Commission on June the 8^th advising us that we would be required to appear at this hearing, I asked CKBY-FM to conduct a full program monitor and compliance assessment for the week preceding our receipt of that letter. That monitor shows that CKBY-FM was in full compliance with respect to both Canadian content and to the levels of hits. We have also filed the results of that program monitor with the Commission.
144. In spite of all of these measures, after two failures in three years, we realized we needed to take other significant steps to increase the effectiveness of our compliance monitoring and control system. In particular, we needed to ensure that our compliance practices and procedures are constantly reviewed and updated to reflect changes in the CRTC Regulations and Policies.
145. In that regard, I am pleased to advise the Commission we have now appointed a full time regulatory affairs officer for Rogers Broadcasting. Alain Strati assumed that position a few months ago. Part of his overall ressponsibilities will be to ensure that any change in the Commission's policies and regulations with respect to commercial radio broadcasting is immediately reflected in our compliance policies and practices.
146. I want to emphasize that the infraction of your rules that occurred at CKBY-FM was the result of an administrative error. It was not intentional. That of course does not excuse the infraction, or make it any less serious. We have now taken a number of important steps to ensure that such a serious administrative error will not occur again at any of our radio stations. On that basis, we believe the Commission should be confident that there will be no further infractions and that it will not be necessary to impose a mandatory order.
147. On behalf of the radio station and Rogers Broadcasting, I want to state clearly for the record that we very much regret the error and the infraction incurred, and I want to offer the Commission our apology.
148. Scott Parsons will now speak to the renewal.
149. MR. S. PARSONS: CKBY-FM has been an important part of the radio broadcasting landscape in Ottawa and throughout the Ottawa Valley since it was launched in 1972. Country music is very popular in Eastern Ontario. CKBY-FM serves that interest with a contemporary country music format.
150. CKBY-FM has provided 35 percent Canadian content since it was launched. It has always been a very important vehicle for the exposure of established and "up and coming" Canadian musical talent. As one of Canada's leading country music stations, CKBY-FM will continue to play a very important role in supporting the development of the Canadian country music talent over the term of a renewed licence. CKBY-FM is an active and involved local radio station.
151. The station regularly supports many important community events and activities, to which we bring our own unique country music perspective. For example, CKBY-FM supported the Heart Institute Telethon here in Ottawa/Hull with more than $30,000 of on-air promotion. The station also donated the ultimate "door prize", a seven foot door with signatures of some of country music's hottest stars. CKBY-FM also launches its own events to support important local or national charitable organizations.
152. For example, the Y105 FanJam and the Y105 Country Cares Challenge for CHEO Radiothon raised over $140,000 for that important local hospital. The Y105 Charity Golf Classic raised over $32,000 for the Make A Wish Foundation. In addition to these major events, CKBY provides extensive airplay for local and national public service announcements. For instance, Y105 is the official radio station of the Chatelaine Women of Influence Luncheons and the YWCA Women of Distinction Awards.
153. CKBY-FM is an equal opportunity employer. Our employment practices conform to the comprehensive principles that are set out in the Rogers Broadcasting employment equity plan. That detailed plan was filed with our renewal application. We look forward to continuing to provide an active, community-responsive and community-involved local radio programming service over the terms of our renewed licence.
154. MR. G. MILES: Madam Chair, that concludes our presentation. We would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have.
155. THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bennett.
156. Me L. BENNETT: Thank you. I just have a few comments about the possible issuance of a mandatory order. I believe you may have been in attendance when I read the information earlier. So, I'll try to be brief.
157. Under Section 12 of the Broadcasting Act, the Commission may hear a matter where it appears that a person has failed to do any act or thing that the person is required to do pursuant to any licence or decision of the Commission and issue a mandatory order to ensure compliance with any such licence or decision.
158. In the case of Rogers Broadcasting Limited, CKBY-FM, the Commission has noted that you are in apparent non-compliance with the condition of licence requiring the weekly level of hits broadcast to be less than 50 percent of all musical selections broadcast each week.
159. If a mandatory order were issued and CKBY-FM subsequently failed to comply with this condition of licence, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the Federal Court and, thereafter, a show cause hearing for contempt of Court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada. CKBY-FM would be entitled to present a defence and, if found guilty of contempt, it would be subject to a fine, as set out by that Court.
160. As you are aware, CKBY-FM has been called upon to show cause why a mandatory order should not issue regarding this condition of licence. This means that you have the burden of convincing the Panel why the Commission should not issue a mandatory order. I trust this makes the mandatory order procedures clear.
161. MR. G. MILES: Yes, it does.
162. Me L. BENNETT: Thank you.
163. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Ms Bennett.
164. I'm going to be handling the questioning this morning on this file. Good morning, Mr. Miles and Mr. Parsons. I wish I could say that it's a pleasure to see you but I'm sure you'll understand when I say that I would rather that you're not here. And I know that you've been here all morning and that you've been listening into our discussions with the two other stations who are appearing for similar reasons as you are.
165. I think you'll understand me too when I say that in some ways, it's more understandable that they were in non-compliance, given their size and perhaps their lack of resources and maybe sophistication as radio operators. But of course, it's not entirely understandable because it's always a concern of the Commission when the use of public airwaves doesn't seem to be respected pursuant to the Regulations and the conditions of licence that we put into effect.
166. But it particularly concerns me when I see an operator of your size and resources and sophistication appearing for a second time for the same reason. And you know, both times the reasons are very plausible. You know, you've explained but you know I can't help but wonder why twice in a row for two different reasons you're in non-compliance with this particular condition of licence? And is there some reason that you need to be playing more than 50 percent hits? That's the question that arises in my mind.
167. And I just refer you I guess you know to your financial results, which are very good. They weren't so great in 1996. They're really a lot better now. I don't know if playing a higher level of hits has anything to do with that in terms of generating add revenues. But to me, that's the concern and I guess I'd like to -- you've gone some distance in your opening remarks and in your correspondence to explain how this could happen on two occasions.
168. But I'd like to give you a further opportunity to go over how it is that operators with the kinds of resources, including sophisticated lawyers, who seem to monitor public notices that would make you happy. They never miss those ones. How is it that they miss 1997-42? How is it that that information was inadvertently not taken into account in your control mechanims? It very hard for me to understand how that could happen.
169. MR. G. MILES: Madam Chair, you are absolutely correct. The question is very pertinent. I am embarassed to be in front of the Commission, personally and professionally. We take pride in our radio stations and we take pride in our compliance across the country.
170. In the first occasion, we had just acquired the assets of the radio station and were implementing our policies and practices and our compliance reports. And at that time, I believe it was -- the renewal was coming up in the course of their seven-year renewal process at the time of the acquisition. As you know, it was an asset. And so, as a result, we just normally went through the whole occasion -- or I'm sorry, the whole process and it came at the -- the renewal came up at about the same time. We actually had just taken over.
171. So, were trying to put our practices and procedures in place and we were reverting how we formatted the radio station to make it more attractive to the audience, et cetera. And in that process, that's where the first infraction occurred. We had then instituted our weekly compliance report. And in fact, it was as a result of the infraction that incurred at CKBY-FM that we started the process of monthly compliance reports, weeklies and then monthly to me, across the entire chain of our radio stations. We actually initiated it because of that problem.
172. It is no excuse and it is no reason. Unfortunately, bad input into a compliance report that measures hits and non-hits is bad input and it has nothing to do with whether we think playing 51 percent was smart or effective or anything like that. We really believed we were playing less than 50 percent hits due to what our compliance reports had shown.
173. THE CHAIRPERSON: Is this a computerized system?
174. MR. G. MILES: It's a computerized system that is monitored by the Program Director at the end of every day and the end of every week that is sent to the General Manager who signs off on it, who sends it to me and I take a look every month with all of the radio stations across my entire division and take a check for Can-Com and for hits and non-hits.
175. THE CHAIRPERSON: And so, the fact that the RPM chart didn't get included subsequent -- I mean it was. That notice was issued prior to the renewal of your licence the last time. It was issued in April and your licence was renewed effective September 1^st of the same year.
176. MR. G. MILES: I believe that's true, although we would have probably had the notice about for the sent in alongs prior to that.
177. THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the 1996 logs. But then, what I'm saying is that for this licence term, for this entire licence term, that public notice was sitting there in public.
178. MR. G. MILES: yes.
179. THE CHAIRPERSON: Saying that for the Ottawa and Montreal markets, those charts have to be used to measure hits. So, how could that have been overlooked?
180. MR. G. MILES: It was overlooked and I ---
181. THE CHAIRPERSON: I mean because it did refer to hits all across the country.
182. MR. G. MILES: Yes.
183. THE CHAIRPERSON: So, I'm assuming that somebody at Rogers Radio would have been looking at that notice with respect to the stations right across the country. And what? They just missed the paragraph that said Ottawa?
184. MR. G. MILES: No, I do not believe we missed the paragraph that said Ottawa. We are very aware that Ottawa radio station had to be in there. But in the process of passing that information down, certainly the usage of the RPM Country 100 was not communicated and if it was communicated, it wasn't communicated directly and made part of the air and part of the check in the balance.
185. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And subsequent to our letters to you indicating that you were in non-compliance based on including that chart as a reference point, you've made an adjustment to your system.
186. MR. G. MILES: An adjustment has been made to our system. We've insured further steps to be taken that we don't miss those kind of issues that come up as a result of anything that's issued by the CRTC. And that's the appointment of the Alain Strati. And we have also made sure because he's been in the job only about three weeks but he has been a very busy person and we already received on a regular basis, whenever anything is up on the website, a communication is passed on to me and we pass it down to everyone of our program directors. And our managers are saying as a result of the issuance of this decision or regulation or change today, here's the impact on the radio division.
187. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. In your opening remarks, you've already made an argument about why you feel a mandatory order shouldn't be issued. Do you think that the Commission needs to put into place any specific mechanisms to monitor your compliance with this COL on a going-forward basis? Should we just take your word for it that you're going to be good from now own or ---
188. MR. G. MILES: You took my word last time and unfortunately we weren't and I'm not making light of that. We do have internal mechanisms in place. We filed it. If the Commission wishes, we could file it for a period of time those compliance reports that talk about Canadian content and hit and non-hits. We're doing it anyway and so we have no difficulty doing that.
189. THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you're aware that a second instance of non-compliance subject to Circular 444 usually results in a short term renewal.
190. MR. G. MILES: As we indicated in our opening remarks, we'll well aware of that and yes ---
191. THE CHAIRPERSON: And prepared to accept that
192. MR. G. MILES: And prepared to accept it, yes.
193. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Legal counsel, do you have any questions? Oh, I'm sorry. Commissioner Cram.
194. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Miles, I see this somewhat differently. I note on page 3 of your statement today, the middle paragraph, you're referring to the fact that Public Notice 97-42 said that you should also consult RPM 100 Country Tracks chart and you referred to it as a policy change. If I was to tell you there's never been a policy change, that RPM 100 Country Tracks has always been on the list and that 97-42 was merely a reiteration of our previous policy, would this mean that this would not be one of the reasons for your non-compliance I suppose?
195. MR. G. MILES: Yes.
196. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. And so to me, what that leads to is a more serious issue, not that you will not be "au courant" with what's going on. I'm sorry, I started today in French and I'm having problems coming back. But there seems to be some base that's missing here if you didn't know when you bought the station nor before 97-42 that this list was also to be included.
197. Can you comment on that?
198. MR. G. MILES: Yes. That was the reason that we actually went out and purchased the CD ROM which (inaudible). That has to do with the gold base that we were doing. And prior to us purchasing the station and moving it over, it was really a more contemporary format.
199. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes, I know the changes. Yes.
200. MR. G. MILES: And so, when we went into the gold bse, that was it. So that in effect, prior to that, it wasn't an issue with regards to the hits because we were always taking a look at the current hits. It was the gold that had been established prior to, which in our particular station, thinking about the songs -- and again, this is no excuse or no reason -- those gold which are older are in a very wide rotation. So, they may well have only popped up once or twice or three times during the course of a week. And we'd rest from time to time, depending on the burn. So no, I understand what you're saying and I acknowledged that that could -- you could well draw a conclusion from that.
201. COMMISSIONER CRAM: It is in fact, yes.
202. MR. G. MILES: But that is not the case.
203. COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, I can take it then from the time you purchased this station until in fact 1999, it is possible that there was no compliance almost all the time because of the lack of this one list.
204. MR. G. MILES: That I would not like to agree to until we'd actually go back in it. It is possible. It would also be possible given the rotation and things like that ---
205. COMMISSIONER CRAM: The contrary is also possible.
206. MR. G. MILES: Exactly and at many times during the thing, we would far less than the 49 percent content because as you know this from the CRTC monitor, we actually had called some song hits that were not hits. And so, we were always -- we always air on the side of caution. Unfortunately, we did not do it at this time.
207. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
208. THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bennett.
209. Me L. BENNETT: I have no questions.
210. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Miles, Mr. Parsons. You do have the opportunity for reply, although there are no interverners.
211. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The applicant has waived his right for a rebuttal stage.
212. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
213. MR. G. MILES: Except to do one thing, which is again to apologize on behalf of our company for taking your time. You have a terribly busy schedule and we should not have been here for this and it is an embarrassment. Thank you.
214. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Mr. Miles. Thank you.
215. We're going to adjourn for lunch now and we will reconvene at 1:30.

--- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. / L'audience est suspendue à 12h00.

--- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. / L'audience est reprise à 13h30.

1. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our hearing.
2. Mr. Secretary, do you want to do the formal call?
3. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Madame Chair. As soon as I find it.
4. The next application to be heard is an application by World Television Network (WTM) for a licence to carry on a national specialty television service dedicated to providing news, public affairs, film and entertainment programming from around the world.
5. You may proceed when you're ready.
6. THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you mind using your microphone, please, Mr. Iannuzzi? Thank you.
7. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I've lost the habit.

   APPLICATION / DEMANDE

8. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Madame Chair, before we start the clock on our presentation, I would like to ask, if at all possible, because of the hour that we're starting and the possibility, I understand, of not completing this application today, two things transpire in that case: One, we will be losing four of our panel here today. So if we can get as much questioning as possible. They must leave tomorrow morning for their own efforts. And second is that we understand that the intervenors have been moved to tomorrow, but some have already been here, or are here presently, and the idea was that if we could at least, at one point, maybe listen to the two or three that are here so that they can also go back to -- they are not Ottawa. So I would like you to consider that. I don't say we have to have a decision on that now, but we would appreciate your indulgence in either of these cases.
9. THE CHAIRPERSON: The Panel will consider that during the break, and we will get back to you on that.
10. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Thank you very much.
11. THE CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask with respect to the panel members -- your panel members who are not going to be here tomorrow -- what areas of the application would they be responsible for responding to questions.
12. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Primarily programming. Our Vice President, Programming, Mr. McHale, our News and Information, Mr. Howard Bernstein.
13. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
14. MR. D. IANNUZZI: And Bill Brooks, our Marketing -- and also our Chief Engineer and Responsible for Cable Affiliation, Mr. Pip Bola.
15. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. It could present us with some challenges if your Marketing person has to go, because the way that we have divided up the assignments for the Panel, I'm not sure that we're going to get to Marketing today.
16. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I see.
17. THE CHAIRPERSON: It depends on the Commissioner who is going to take the lead on the file and what kind of a discussion you end up having.
18. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I appreciate that.
19. THE CHAIRPERSON: I think the other areas, we should be okay, but that's the one area that might be -- I just heard him say he could change his flight.
20. MR. D. IANNUZZI: No, he's going to try and change it.
21. THE CHAIRPERSON: He could try and change his flight.
22. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If nothing else, then you will have to listen to my vigorous marketing ideas.
23. THE CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes those are the best.
24. All right. I think you may proceed whenever you're ready, and we will get back to you with respect to the intervenors.
25. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Thank you, Madame Chair.
26. Bonjour, Buongiorno, Salaam, Namaskar, good afternoon everyone. Madame Chair/Madame la présidente and Commissioners, it is with great pleasure and satisfaction and appreciation that our group has been granted this opportunity. WTM is here to present its application requesting priority carriage for your review and ultimate decision to deem this service one of exceptional importance and, unequivocally, in the national public interest.
27. Why? Because we offer a unique service to meet the growing demand of English and French-speaking audiences for daily access to world programming - audiences which are themselves more and more culturally diverse. To speak to this, I would now call on Monsieur Rock Demers, Chairman of the WTM Board of Directors. Rock?
28. MR. R. DEMERS: Good afternoon.
29. As the Chairman of World Télémonde, I must extend the company's gratitude to the Commission for this opportunity to describe the service we intend to offer. We are more and more convinced than ever that World Télémonde will be an important link within the broadcasting system, bringing to it benefits that will enrich Canada and the awareness of the peoples of Mother Earth.
30. World Télémonde est unique en ce sens qu'elle offre un service qu'elle sera la seule à donner, un service dans nos deux langues officielles, un service qui émane de notre engagement à refléter et renforcer l'une des sociétés les plus multiculturelles au monde. On a décrit le Canada comme étant un pays représentatif d'un monde en microcosme, ce qui est facilité du fait qu'on y communique aisément en deux des langues dont l'usage est le plus répandu à travers la planète.
31. En tant que citoyen de ce monde en microcosme, je partage l'héritage de Dan Iannuzzi et il partage le mien, celui-là même que nous partageons avec tous les canadiens. Aucune exclusion. Le Canada, tel qu'il existe depuis des générations, tel qu'il est aujourd'hui, et tel qu'il le sera dans l'avenir, demeure notre unique objectif.
32. Commissioners, you have before you an application that I know you will examine thoroughly. Given my personal experience, I firmly believe that this application has the content to warrant, at the least, the carriage it is requesting, the carriage it needs to meet (1) its linguistic targets; (2) its cultural targets; (3) the carriage it requires for economic viability.
33. World Télémonde offrira deux services, sensiblement les mêmes, dont l'un en français et l'autre en anglais. D'un point de vue canadien, ce seul fait devrait assurer que l'on reconnaisse le bien-fondé de ce projet et des liens forts aux objectifs-clés de la Loi sur la radiodiffusion. C'est déjà extraordinaire que TVA puisse diffuser dans le pays tout entier, mais que notre service assure à tous un accès commun à la fois en français et en anglais, ne peut être qu'un remarquable pas de plus dans cette direction que le Canada se doit de poursuivre.
34. World Télémonde enables all Canadians to see the globe as it is seen by the diversity of its inhabitants. Our World News Journals will not be Canadian news of the world, but world views of the news, as you will hear later on.
35. Si ce projet représente un changement majeur dans notre industrie, alors tenant compte de qui nous sommes, et de ce que nous sommes en voie de devenir, il s'ensuit que la valeur de notre contribution et son à-propos ne saurait faire aucun doute. Il vous incombe donc de relever le défi d'accorder une licence à ce qui pourrait bien devenir un prototype de la sauvegarde et l'alimentation de notre diversité culturelle, et ce, en plus d'être un modèle pour promouvoir la compréhension de ce monde et la protection de la musique de ces diverses langues, une espèce en voie de disparition si un immense effort n'est pas rapidement fait, tel que la ministre Sheila Copps nous l'a rappelé fort à propos le 12 juin dernier à Banff, ajoutant que "la diversité culturelle est un droit". Je ne peux qu'être persuadé de votre support entier et sans équivoque. Merci.
36. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Thank you, Rock.
37. Madame Chair, Commissioners, as some of you may know, the concept we present to you today has been under development for more than 10 years. In 1996, our then application was described by the McLuhan Institute as: "powerful and revolutionary because in the exciting international context in which find ourselves, World Télémonde will provide a new and distinctive Canadian way of creating television within the global village."
38. Over the years, support for the WTM service has grown steadily. The November 2000 results conducted by Compas Inc. in Ottawa can be summarized in four key points:
39. 1. Ninety (90) per cent believe it is of national importance to have equal access to information and programming from around the world.
40. 2. Eighty (80) per cent believe Canadians should have access to an international service delivering public affairs to dramatic programming from around the world in the official language of their choice.
41. 3. Seventy (70) per cent believe that foreign programming should be subtitled so that Canadians can get a sense of the intensity, emotion, and action by hearing the original dialogue.
42. 4. And lastly, 81 per cent believe that the CRTC should make available such an international service "without delay".
43. These favourable public opinions will no doubt translate into solid viewership.
44. High quality television and film programming is created every day in all regions of the world. Every day, globalisation advances. Yet, today, the vast majority of Canadians miss out on 94 per cent of the television produced in the world. Very few Canadians will enjoy the programming presented last week at the Banff Television Festival, such as: Rosa - Death of a Composer, from the Netherlands; Ethnic Cleansing, from Japan; the Swedish mini-series Soldiers by Moonlight; and Germany's The Bloody Nuisance.
45. World Télémonde will change this. It will provide its service in English and in French, the two languages to which the Broadcasting Act gives priority. It will provide entertaining, informative and insightful programming, until now, unavailable.
46. Our business plan is sound and our management team is knowledgeable, experienced and committed to successfully create this unique service.
47. I would like to use the next minute or so to allow the Honourable Flora MacDonald, the first woman in the world to be appointed an External Affairs Minister and World Télémonde's Honourary Chair, to make a videotaped statement. Thank you.
48. THE HON. F. MACDONALD: I would like to think that the concept of World Télémonde can soon become a reality in Canada. I spend about half of each year in countries in Africa or Asia, and it is critically important to me, as an individual, that I am able to follow events in these countries through news programs and cultural presentations that come directly from the primary source.
49. But even more important is that such programming, which World Télémonde seeks to provide, would be of great value to the many millions among us who have come here to make Canada their home in linking them to their roots. At the same time, it would provide a better opportunity, through the medium of broadcasting, for them to contribute to the development of Canada as a country that is well-informed and caring about international events.
50. Canada is the most culturally diverse country in the world, and that cultural diversity needs to be strengthened and encouraged, and made a basic part of Canadian life. It was to address this need that the Canadian Broadcasting Act laid special emphasis on the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society. I know that the vision of World Télémonde will help bring this about.
51. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Thank you.
52. Kerry?
53. MR. K. JOHNSON: Haroon Siddiqui of The Toronto Star characterizes Canada as "the great uncovered story of our time.we [have] made Canada the world's most heterogenous nation with a minimum of fuss".
54. As Rock stated earlier, Gwynne Dyer states in a recent issue of Canadian Geographic magazine, "we have become the world in one country - in two leading international languages".
55. As our country grows ever more diverse, our connections with the rest of the world grow more extensive. We need strong cultural and communication links to maximize this Canadian advantage.
56. WTM had demonstrated the public appetite for this grand buffet of cultural diversity. All that is required is to set the table with priority carriage.
57. Be it news or film, all genres reflect the culture in which they are produced and by whom they are produced. They are not culturally neutral. They cannot be.
58. The genius of WTM is that it will assemble and present, every day, diverse cultural perspectives from the great daily dramas of humankind. It will allow programming to be seen and understood from within the cultures in which it was produced.
59. "Our media fails to grasp the complexity of contemporary Canada", says Haroon Siddiqui. Why? Because it overwhelmingly represents the cultural traditions of a past Canada, a far less complex society. Such a model restricts our capacity to recognize and respond to contemporary Canadian and global diversity. It fails to meet the demands of culturally diverse populations in English and French.
60. World Télémonde responds to this contemporary reality. Its specialty is the positioning of its programming within the appropriate cultural perspectives and contexts.
61. As Minister Copps stated at Banff very recently, Canada must avoid creating barriers or blocking paths. We must underwrite the vitality of our own stories by connecting to each other and the world. We must harness technological diversity to the chariot of cultural diversity, and not, as some would have it, the other way around.
62. George?
63. MR. G. FRAJKOR: Thank you, Kerry.
64. Madame Chair, Commissioners, in politics and in economics the world over, there is an undeniable trend to think globally. The strength of international institutions increases every day. The world's affairs are our affairs. The world's people are our people. Their home is our home. And nowhere is this more true than in Canada, where the world's greatest multicultural society is being built.
65. Of course, Canada -- and we sincerely believe it -- will remain different from other countries and will make its unique contribution to the world's development. But we are no longer a narrow, single or double-definition culture. Our interests, Canadian interests, are broader. WTM is the first broadcasting organization to have grasped the importance of this.
66. CNN, despite its global reach, remains identifiably American.
67. WTM will go beyond this kind of journalism. World Télémonde will bring viewers stories from and about the world's people, our people, and their cultural context via entertainment, documentaries and discussions from other areas of the world, elaborated and analyzed by globally-minded Canadians.
68. Howard Bernstein will speak later in detail of our news journal concept and exactly what WTM will do, and what nobody else is doing.
69. We, the Canadian descendants of many nations ranging from African to Asian, European to Caribbean, do not find our heritage nor our current cultures prominently reflected in the Canadian broadcasting scene. We are overwhelmingly English and French-speaking Canadians, but we represent cultural diversity.
70. Our government leaders emphasize more and more our country's natural advantage of cultural diversity, and it is government policy to encourage it.
71. There are wonderful stories in the world to be told, entertaining and important stories. WTM makes the telling of these stories a central aspect of its Canadian content and independent production.
72. We hope that the Commission will see two principal reasons for WTM's concept being deemed of exceptionnal importance to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act: (1) meeting the demand of both English and French speakers for daily access to world programming; and (2) reflecting our immense cultural diversity.
73. Michael?
74. MR. M. MCHALE: Thank you, George.
75. Madame Chair, Commissioners, World Télémonde is Canadian, international and interactive, a network that brings the world's events, issues and cultures to a Canadian television audience that is ready.
76. As stated earlier, all of our world programming will be broadcast in the original language of production. The bridge that ensures access to all viewers will be enhanced subtitles in both official languages.
77. Will this work, you may ask? Well, "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", winner of four Academy Awards, used colour-coded, enhanced subtitles to make a Cantonese film in Canada and globally one of the most watched films of the year.
78. The U.S. network ABC uses subtitles for programs like its Latin Awards Show. Advertisers like IBM, Coca-Cola, and advertising personalities like Morris the Cat use subtitles to sell products. Subtitles are ubiquitous and widely accepted. They are not an issue.
79. During the first seven years we will invest approximately $40 million on fresh, new and exciting, entertaining, international programming, programming that will add exponentially to the diversity in our broadcast universe.
80. Programs such as "Ahron Cohen's Debt" from Israel, a multiple award winner in Europe and Banff tells the story of a father and husband who's arrested for no apparent reason. The Japanese production of "Manhole Children of Mongolia", the compelling story of homeless children on the streets of Ulan Bator, and the home that they have built for themselves in underground tunnels.
81. Many of the world's great film directors like India's Ray or Japan's Kobayashi, have never had a channel in Canada on which to broadcast their masterpieces.
82. Television series such as "Shanti", with over 780 episodes was India's first daily soap, and has an average daily audience of $100 million. "Under one roof", produced by TV5 in Singapore is a hit sitcom in Southeast Asia. "Inspector Derrick" from Germany is broadcast all over the world. Jamaica ER is available in Europe and the United States. All are unavailable to Canadian television audiences. We will never exhaust the expanding supply of international programming.
83. But World Télémonde is more than international programming. We will spend $89 million, or 41 per cent of gross revenues, on Canadian programs during the licence period. This will be a significant contribution to the Canadian broadcast system.
84. We will emulate the Channel Four model in Britain by fostering film cooperatives and small production companies by acquiring guaranteed programming in an agreed time frame. The result? A wider diversity of more individual styles and points of view.
85. We will create original series. For example, "Cabaret": an interactive showcase for emerging Canadian artists linking venues and performers to the world, an eclectic, experimental, sometimes off-beat mix of art and performance.
86. Another original series, "Debut", will be a television window for first Canadian shorts. Innovative, but low-budget film and television dramas are much more a fact of life in other countries. The very successful Toronto Short Film Festival offers many great examples of this type of programming. "Debut" will provide access to the next generation of storytellers to a Canadian television audience.
87. World Télémonde will also help develop the next generation of producers in Canada by spending $4 million on script development and production planning during the licence period.
88. Howard?
89. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Thank you, Michael.
90. Commissioners, as a journalist who has covered the world, my experience tells me most Canadians viewers are missing important international stories, and perhaps worse, are subjected to a relatively narrow world view, dominated by American influence. World Télémonde has two programs that prove our special commitment to changing this, to integrating Canada and the world.
91. "World Journal" is our flagship. It is an innovative concept in news analysis. The program will gather reports from up to three countries in their original languages and subtitle them for Canadians.
92. This is an opportunity for Canadians to understand the way major news events are perceived by countries directly involved in the news and by countries directly affected; finally, a richer world view, a finer balance in news, and an opportunity for real understanding.
93. Studio discussion of the stories will link informed commentators to bridge the understanding gap between Canada and the countries involved in those news stories.
94. Every day "World Journal" will provide stories and coverage mostly unavailable to Canadians starved for international news on television.
95. "Eye on Canada" is a documentary series that will license a minimum of 13 new Canadian documentaries in its first year. We will commission stories about Canadians contributing to the world outside Canada and stories about the incredible diversity within our borders, stories that will help all Canadian understand the complex and unique nature of this country.
96. And now my friend Firdaus Kharas, whose movies have been nominated for 20 Genie Awards, among many other achievements.
97. MR. F. KHARAS: Thank you, Howard.
98. Madam Chair, I am elated to be part of World Télémonde. The network will bring the world's events, issues and cultures to a Canadian television audience in English and French nationally.
99. Just last week, I addressed the Banff TV Festival. This year the theme was diversity. Minister Copps made an extraordinary and heartfelt plea for cultural diversity on Canada's TV channels. Minister Copps said: "The cultures of the world to flow freely through the house, the windows should stay open." This challenge can and will be met by World Télémonde.
100. This will be possible because there is a huge volume of international programming available at exceptionally reasonable prices. AS I roam the world and attend the global TV trade shows in Las Vegas and Cannes, I am struck by the increasing quality and quantity of non-U.S. programming.
101. The diversity and history of countries in film and television by China and India, and the enormity of the hours that they produce cannot be accommodated on just one or two pay channels to satisfy Canadian appetites.
102. What has happened in developing countries is that so far they have only been able to export their products to those places that have ethnic-specific channels. It is time to move the best of Asia and Africa and Latin America out from ethnicity and into larger Canadian audience, the new English and French mainstreams of Canada.
103. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Excuse me, Mr. Iannuzzi, you are already over your time. If you could wrap up, please?
104. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Sorry about that. We just had a videotape to close this off here, but maybe we will use it in our question and answer period.
105. Madame Chair, Commissioners, today you will hear that the licensing of World Télémonde is very much in the national public interest and meets the objectives of the Broadcasting Act for a number of reasons. I wish to highlight four salient points.
106. First, World Télémonde will fill the large void in the Canadian broadcasting system by providing the world's best international television programming.
107. Second, our bilingual service will fill a growing demand for this kind of television.
108. And third, we will provide access to different perspectives on international affairs and a new approach to Canadian issues and events.
109. And fourth, World Télémonde will make a significant contribution to Canada programming and talent. We will pay close to $90 million over the course of the licence, including $38 million in programming to independent production centres.
110. Madame Chair, World Télémonde meets the objectives of the Act, as I said, and current government policies on cultural diversity.
111. We trust that based on what you will hear today, as the deciding Commissioners, you will deem this service to be of exceptional importance and in the national public interest, and grant it the requested carriage prescribed in the Regulations.
112. Lastly, we have a roll-out plan for the successful launch of the WTM service.
113. I thank you. Merci. Nous sommes à votre disposition pour répondre à toutes vos questions. Merci.
114. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much, Mr. Iannuzzi.
115. Commissioner Cardozo.
116. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madame Chair.
117. Welcome, Mr. Iannuzzi and colleagues.
118. Could I ask you, before I start, maybe just to introduce everyone in your panel. Some have spoken, and I have a sense of who they are from here, but there are a couple of people who haven't spoken. So if you could -- or people could just introduce themselves. That would be fine.
119. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Sorry. This is Dorine Iannuzzi, my able daughter who is also Director of Communications and Hearing Coordinator; Dale Brooks, who is our Vice President Marketing, and everyone else has spoken.
120. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Yes.
121. You are all aware about the process of the hearing, and what I would like to do is just cover a few areas, and I just want to stress at the beginning that really, what I would like to do is try and get more information on a number of areas where we need more information. If there are areas we haven't covered, it is not because they are not important. It's just because we have enough information on the record, but at the same time, if I can quote one of my colleagues who says, "Feel free to answer any questions that we might not have answered." This is really your chance to give us all the information you think we need in order to make the decision.
122. I am well aware of the importance of this hearing for all of you, and want to compliment the determination that you have had in building this dream of yours. We take this quite seriously. I will go through four areas of questioning, and then my colleagues may follow up with some other questions too.
123. I will deal with four areas, starting with programming -- so unless, Mr. McHale, you are very, very detailed, we will be done with you today -- distribution and carriage, human resources and services to persons with disabilities will be the fourth topic.
124. So let me start at the beginning with programming, and what I would like to do is just go through the schedule, which is the one that you have filed. And I just have a few questions around the schedule, and I will just work around that. And the purpose of this, your comments filed as well as your opening comments today have given us some sense of what these programs are, which is very helpful. What I would like to do is go through a few questions in here. And keep a few things in mind, what I would like to get information on is how these programs are different from what is on presently. And you have talked about that quite a bit in your opening. Second, the language of programming; third, where they are produced, and fourth, Canadian content issues, which are Canadian content and which are not.
125. Can I start then with the top bar that you've got, where you've got the different regions of the world. Could you just tell us which programs those themes will apply to? I take it those are five themes that will be focusing on stories.
126. What I want to know is, is it news stories and entertainment programming, or primarily news stories when you're talking about the theme from the -- I think you call them geopolitical regions of the world?
127. MR. M. McHALE: Commissioner, the approach we have to our grid is horizontal and vertical programming. We have divided the world into five regions, as indicated on the top bar.
128. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
129. MR. M. McHALE: On weekends, we will do a "best of" the world. If we take the schedule on a Monday, Western Europe, the prime time emphasis will be on stories and programs from that part of the world, and that will be consistent throughout the week. So for example, the World of Cinema will come from Western Europe that night. The World Regional Journal would more than likely always look at stories that are from a European perspective, what we may bring into perspective from some other part of the world. And the Canadian productions, we would try and get some insight or understanding from that part of the world as well. So it would primarily apply to prime time.
130. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's just take Monday then, and look at that a bit more closely.
131. So the World Cinema would be Western Europe, as with the World Regional Journal, the World Drama, and Canada and the World?
132. MR. M. McHALE: As a Canadian production, that would have perspectives on Canada, maybe a magazine program.
133. Maybe I can call on Howard, if you have insights into that kind of programming?
134. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: We are going to attend to make those shows stick within those regions as well. So for instance, if we have commissioned a documentary about a group that may have European roots within Canada, that would be the night we would try to run it. And if those people had roots in other regions, obviously we would try to pick the night that matches that region.
135. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So the parts that would not refer to the theme on Monday would be World of Art Festival, World Short Books and Print?
136. MR. M. McHALE: They would not be specific to a region, but during the course of a season we would make an effort. For example, World of Art, we may put together a thematic series of art programs from around the world, and if possible, then we would try and fit it in, but it may vary.
137. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Now, how would you deal with world news? And I guess I am going back and forth between programming and news, as you have organized it. Would you have news from a certain part of the world on that night, and then on Tuesday night you would have Pacific news, or would it be like a weekly update of news events?
138. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: I think it's important to state that our news is news analysis. It's not a newscast per se.
139. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
140. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Which gives us a little bit of latitude to move a story from one night to another.
141. But having said that, we will attempt on Monday night to handle European news basically, but if, obviously because it is news, if there's a major breaking story from somewhere else, we wouldn't exclude it.
142. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
143. And then for the European part, it would likely be an analysis of the previous week, of the last seven days?
144. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: That's correct.
145. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If I may, Mr. Cardozo ---
146. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure.
147. MR. D. IANNUZZI: --- the original concept deals with the fact that, both from a marketing standpoint and a way of attracting audiences, especially in the immediate future with all the other television that is going to be available, the idea is to create an environment on a particular evening, so that people who have an affinity or an interest in that type of programming, that type of news from that region, have some tie-in, will gravitate towards that night of the week specifically on our channel.
148. When you think of that in marketing terms, generally in, let us say, ethnic-specific channels, people run to their half hour or their hour, and then tune out to go off to something else.
149. If we take programming from one specific region in prime time, then there's a possibility that someone, rather than switch after they have seen, let us say, their movie in their language, would switch to another channel, but really have an affinity to it, the following program does come from their region as well, and there is good possibility they would stay there, specifically since it is subtitled.
150. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
151. MR. M. McHALE: Commissioner, if I may paint kind of a picture of the type of programming you would see on air if you tuned in to our station. I will take an event which we are all familiar with, which was the hand over of Hong Kong to China by the United Kingdom and the coverage that that event received in the western world. We all saw the footage of Prince Charles and the hushed tones of the BBC announcer as Prince Charles, with great dignity, the flag is lowered, and of course the sun never sets on the British Empire. And in the scenes of the last staff from the Governor's residence getting onto the British boat in the Hong Kong Harbour and taking off. A lot of pomp, a lot of ceremony, and this is the view that was transmitted predominantly around the world. Interestingly enough, in Beijing, and they were probably using the same camera crew and taking a feed, the same scene where Prince Charles was standing as they are taking down the flag, the two newscasters are hanging their head in shame for allowing the foreign dog to possess their land for so long. And their view of the British Yacht sailing off with the Governor and Prince in Hong Kong Harbor was, like a thief, he sneaks away in the dark.
152. Now, without subtitling, someone who has no knowledge of Cantonese, who had no idea what the newscasters in Beijing were talking about, when we put together a story such as that, we would show both perspectives. Both are valid. Both are points of views that are valid, as far as the obvservers are concerned. But it's interesting to show both sides of the story.
153. While that was going on, Taiwan TV, they had no interest in the flag being taken down. They had incredible footage of a very young Hong Kong police officer holding up a convoy of Red Army personnel who wanted to start rolling their trucks in prior to midnight at the new territories. That was their concern.
154. So we have one very, very important story with worldwide implications, and we have three very, very different interpretations. And I think maybe that example paints a kind of picture for you so that you can visualize the type of programming we will bring to the World Journal.
155. And because it's news analysis, we have the luxury of gathering this kind of footage and analyzing it, having a studio discussion, bring in immigrants from that part of the world that we're taking the stories from, get their feedback. Do they feel the same way about the hand over? Are British people here demoralized because the empire shrunk yet again? Are Chinese people happy that Hong Kong has been sent back, and what do they think will happen?
156. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you.
157. Could we go to the Tele-novellas? As I recall in your application, you talked about various languages that would be aired. Is that day by day, or over a period of time?
158. MR. M. McHALE: We will broadcast all programming in the original language of production. We will never dub. We will subtitle so that it's available in English, or accessible in English and French, but we will always use the original language of production.
159. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand that.
160. If you do, for example, Italian, Portuguese, Hindi, how often would you change from language to language? Because with a soap opera, you can't sort of change every month. There are stories that go on for several years, as fascinating and intriguing as they are.
161. MR. M. McHALE: It would depend on one of the suggestions we have in our condition of licence that no more than 10 per cent of international programming would originate from any one country in a month. So we would stagger them. So when you tune into Western Europe, you will see Italian all the time. It will be all of Western Europe. The movie -- maybe we'll have a Scandinavian weekend -- or sorry, Monday, a Korismaki (phonetic) movie. You have TV Norsh providing the series. There may be a soap opera from Icelandic TV.
162. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Now, the sports -- before I forget, what are the grey parts under?
163. MR. M. McHALE: Canadian produced in-house.
164. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In-house. Okay. So there is other Canadian stuff on there, but the grey is in-house?
165. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, the colour didn't quite come out.
166. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, I know. I'm working from a copy that showed black.
167. The World Sports on Tuesday -- is that morning -- I guess afternoon -- is that a weekly wrap up of sports?
168. MR. M. McHALE: We see it as coverage of alternative sports. We feel that there's a whole world of sports out there, everything from -- and it could be in Canada, or it may be international. We feel there may be opportunities to co-produce on this kind of programming. It could be an international cricket game here in Toronto.
169. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And again, it would be more sort of analysis, recap, review of the week?
170. MR. M. McHALE: Recap as opposed to a live feed.
171. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
172. MR. M. BURNSIDE: I'm sorry to interrupt at this moment, but we would like to call a five-minute break, and we apologize, but we will be right back after five minutes.
173. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When we come back we will just carry on with some of the programming questions off the chart.
174. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Madame Chair, is it possible that we could see that video when we come back that we missed in the presentation?
175. THE CHAIRPERSON: By all means. We can do that.
176. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Thanks.

     --- Upon recessing at 2:15 p.m./L'audience est suspendue à 14h15

     --- Upon resuming at 2:30 p.m./L'audience est reprise à 14h30

177. THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry for the interruption. You are missing one of your panel members. We will just wait for him to join you.
178. Mr. Iannuzzi, we had a short conversation about your request, and how about if we try and do it this way, if Mr. Brooks can stay until tomorrow, we can hear your intervenors today.
179. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's fine, because another one just came in. The Honourable Gerry Weiner is here, and he can't make it tomorrow. He's at City Council in Montreal. So it would have to be this evening. Otherwise, we would lose that as well.
180. THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine. We can accommodate the ones who are here now.
181. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's fine.
182. THE CHAIRPERSON: And we will see the rest of them tomorrow, but that does mean that Mr. Brooks will have to try hard to reschedule.
183. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We will hold him as hostage.
184. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
185. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Thank you very much.
186. Madam Chair, I understand that Commissioner Williams probably wants to see that video. Is that correct?
187. THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
188. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Could we have that video, please?

     (VIDEO PRESENTATION)

189. MS M.-J. BEAUDOIN: Monsieur le président, World Télémonde offrira un service national de programmation française, qui comblera une lacune importante dans les services existants dans la radiodiffusion canadienne.
190. Parallele à sa consoeur anglophone, le service français présentera une programmation de grande envergure provenant du Canada et de l'internationale. Nous rendrons cette programmation internationale accessible aux francophones par l'entremise du sous-titrage français. De plus, le service réflectera les réalités canadiennes, y comprise notre dualité linguistique.
191. Notre présence à Montréal et à Ottawa-Hull nous donnera une fenêtre sur les opinions et perspectives des francophones qui alimentera non seulement le service français, mais le service anglais également.
192. Cette présence nous permettra d'établir des relations soutenues avec les producteurs indépendants et le talent de ces villes. On poursuivera, par ailleurs, les contacts déjà établis avec les minorités francophones hors Québec.
193. World Télémonde s'engage à allouer un minimum de 20 pour-cent de son budget de productions canadiennes à la programmation française. Ainsi, World Télémonde sera une nouvelle source de fonds pour les producteurs indépendants d'expression française.
194. Chers Commissaires, la programmation canadienne et internationale via les services français et anglais auront pour effet de briser les barrières entre les canadiens d'origines culturelles différentes; d'augmenter la production originale canadienne et l'opportunité de celle-ci d'être vue et entendue chez nous. Pas sa programmation mondiale, ntore réseau exposera les canadiens aux autres nations, à leur diversité, à leur langues et grâce à la technique du sous-titrage, permettra à tous les canadiens de langue française ou anglaise, une facilité de compréhension et d'appréciation, c'est-à-dire, une vision globale du monde et ses peuples.
195. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Iannuzzi.
196. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That was filmed in Thailand. You can tell from the quality.
197. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Cardozo, please continue.
198. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sorry, did you say you can tell from the quality?
199. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Pardon?
200. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Did you say you can tell from the quality?
201. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Well, there was obviously a problem with the quality.
202. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I was hoping you weren't saying that was going to be the quality on your channel. That's fine for today.
203. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Can I remind you to use your button, please, Mr. Iannuzzi?
204. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Pardon?
205. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Could I remind you to use your button, please?
206. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Yes, yes.
207. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That was relatively unimportant banter. I will make sure you press the button next time if you forget.
208. Let me carry on with the schedule. The Canada and the World that you've got at 6:00 p.m. and World Regional Journal, can you just clarify the difference between those two?
209. MR. M. McHALE: If I could pass this question over to Howard?
210. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Well, World Regional Journal is our newscast. Canada and the World is our documentary series.
211. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So the World Regional Journal ---
212. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: I really shouldn't call it a newscast, our news analysis.
213. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
214. And that will be themed by region of the world?
215. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: That's correct, barring major stories.
216. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. Now, how exactly is that going to be put together? Will you have news journalists or analysts in other parts of the world, or will you be using news clips from other parts, and then having them put together here in Canada?
217. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: The news stories that we run will be the actual news stories as they ran in the country of origin. The only thing we will do to those stories is subtitle them. We won't edit them. We won't change them in any way.
218. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
219. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: The analysis will be in studio here and will be provided by Canadians who have a knowledge or interest of the region concerned.
220. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the difference between World Drama and World of Cinema, cinema is full length film and world drama is series and that type of thing?
221. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, World Drama is series -- if I could go back to an issue you raised prior to the break, because we gave an example of "Shanti" with 780 episodes.
222. If I could call on Firdaus to explain how such programs and series are packaged for the international market?
223. MR. F. KHARAS: Yes, I just wanted to touch base on the earlier -- the first question that you asked about soap operas. You can't actually move from region to region in the world, even what is called in long-form series like a soap opera with 780 episodes, because an international distributor who distributes programs like that, I can tell you that nobody actually buys 780 episodes outside of the home country. There are always sort of natural breaks that producers put in, usually at the 100 or 130-episode level so that you don't have to just continue one soap opera for as long as it might be produced in the home country. The story will end logically in certain parts the producers have put in there for the international sales.
224. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you dealing back to the tele-novella?
225. MR. F. KHARAS: Yes, it's exactly the same with novellas. Tele-novellas, especially from Brazil and Latin America from Argentina and Mexico, also are packaged that way and, in fact, have been very successfully moved around the world. We don't really see them here, but believe it or not, for example, if you look at the top ten programs in Russia today, you will find a Latin-American tele-novella. If you look at the top 10 Indonesian programs, you will find a Latin-American tele-novella. So tele-novella is one of the few long-form series that have moved successfully from developing countries literally right around the world, not so much in Canada and the U.S., but certainly in the rest of the world.
226. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Then just to go back to that question I was asking earlier, would you then perhaps run a Brazilian Portuguese one for a year or two and then switch to an Italian, and then switch to Hindi?
227. MR. F. KHARAS: It wouldn't be necessary to run it for a year or two. It would be necessary to run it until the first logical break, which might ---
228. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So what would the length be?
229. MR. F. KHARAS: --- normally be at 100 or 130 episodes. So at 130 episodes divided by five days a week, say, it doesn't take that long.
230. MR. M. McHALE: What we would do is more or less put them on for a season, maybe rest a season, bring them back for a season, alternate them. For example, from Caribbean and Americas, we may alternate a series from Argentina and Brazil for a season, then go back to it again.
231. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, how would that work in terms of viewership? Because with things like soap operas and certainly with weekly serials as well, it takes a while to develop a following. And if you break and you move to something else, the people who liked one may simply be quite uninterested in another, whether or not you're dealing with subtitles or not, it's just a different story.
232. MR. F. KHARAS: You're quite right. It does take some time. That's why the natural breaks our producers put in don't normally occur before the first 100 episodes. It will take at least, in normal terms in most countries, 20 to 30 episodes to build an audience, and then it keeps going up from there. If the tele-novella is successful, it keeps building up from there. That's the contrast between a drama or a series, which stops much faster than 130 episodes.
233. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you go to the last block along the bottom "Books and Prints", "Day and Night", "Health Today", Canadians Eh" and "Debut", these are Canadian content, multicultural in orientation? Is that ---
234. MR. M. McHALE: These are Canadian content, all commission programming. Our goal is to open up the airwaves to totally new views that reflect the culture of diversity that we find in Canada.
235. We will duplicate the best parts of Channel 4 and their drama and magazine show production unit. We will encourage anyone we commission to hire interns in meaningful positions, and we will hope that -- and their programs will fit into the context of the overall grid.
236. Now, Howard Bernstein and his partner have been collecting proposals from producers over the last two years on this type of programming.
237. And if I could call again on Howard to give a few examples?
238. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Yes, these are shows for which we have in hand proposals from independent producers. And I will give you one example - let's say "Canadians eh" is a program that is kind of cinema vérité, going into places where people gather. So for instance it could be an Italian coffee shop where a lot of people sit around and talk, and talk about all kinds of things, and within that group, within that area within that group, presenting Canadian ideas to them and asking them what they think. For instance, if in the news today immigration were a major story, you would say, "So what do you folks think about what's in the news today?" And it doesn't have to be something that's even related to that group, but what you get is meeting places, places where people gather, places where people have similar ideas, and getting a sense of that.
239. Now, the important thing about the show is it's very much going to be done with humour. This is not a show that takes itself seriously. This is a show that we will have fun with these people.
240. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's "Canadians eh"?
241. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: That's correct.
242. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: "Books and Print", as I recall your description of it, was dealing with books around the world. It would also deal with Canadian literature?
243. MR. M. McHALE: It will deal with Canadian literature and international. We intend to attend the Frankfurt Book Fair, book fairs in South America and Asia. We will also look at emerging writers in Canada and profile them.
244. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
245. Now, with most of this programming, I think it's the full evening block that is set for Canada and the world. The whole 6:00 p.m. to midnight block is repeated in the morning. Is that right, it's the same that's repeated the next morning?
246. MR. M. McHALE: That is right.
247. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In prime time, which is the Canadian content in?
248. MR. M. McHALE: In prime time, Canadian content is from 6:00 to 8:00, "Canada and the World" and "World Regional Journal", and then from 11:00 to midnight. So there are overall between 6:00 to midnight, there's three hours of Canadian production and three hours of international programming.
249. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what is "Canada Live"? How does that differ from "Canada and the World"?
250. MR. M. McHALE: Again, this is another magazine show. We feel it's live from various events across Canada, whether it be Canada Day being celebrated by various people across Canada, as one example, just looking at events that are happening in the country today.
251. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. So you've got 364 other ideas, have you? That's fine.
252. Now, with the "World Regional Journal", that is Canadian content in that it's put together here, but the content is primarily about the rest of the world. Is that correct?
253. MR. M. McHALE: Correct, the stories are about the rest of the world.
254. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
255. MR. M. McHALE: We will take news feeds from stations all over the world.
256. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Excuse me, and it doesn't necessarily have to be that -- if there was a major story happening in Canada, if there were a referendum in Quebec today, it would be excellent to get a news report from Germany on how they see what's going on in this country. So it can go in both directions.
257. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But that would likely come under "Canada and the World" as opposed to "World Regional"?
258. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: No, that would come -- when we're taking news reports from other countries, that's under "World Regional Journal".
259. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And Canada and the world is strictly ---
260. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Is more
261. documentary form.
262. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Can I just add one
263. thing to what Howard was saying?
264. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Please.
265. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Also we found that

     particularly here in Ottawa, but it happens right

     across the country, that often there are people

     with expertise who come to this country to advise or to seek the support of Canada on international events. They have a great problem getting their message out to the Canadian people.

266. There was an example of that two weeks ago when the Slovakian Defence Minister visited here, trying to negotiate their entrée into NATO, and he basically is saying that unless he can get Canada's support, he won't get the British support and he won't get the U.S. support and, therefore, they haven't got a hope. They called a press conference, and nobody turned up at all. So that's also the kind of thing that we would be reporting.
267. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of questions on your weekend schedule. The 6:00 to 9:00 block, the Intercom Community Magazines, that is news from communities across the country? Is it ethnic and cultural community based?
268. MR. M. McHALE: We will get diverse Canadian communities, give them a national platform to deal with issues specific to their community and how it is relevant to all Canadians.
269. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, why would you have something like that at 6:00 to 9:00 on weekend mornings as opposed to prime time on weekdays? Because it seems to be, unless I don't understand it fully, that really is a fairly core type of programming for a service, wouldn't it be?
270. MR. M. McHALE: Well, "World Regional Journal"'s reflection. That's our core programming and that's in prime time every night of the week, that combined with a look at a region, or in the case of a weekend, "The Best of the World". It's not that we are sticking it into a ghetto area in the broadcast schedule, but when we were putting this draft schedule together, it was one of the better places to make it fit.
271. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you say that with a straight face though?
272. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
273. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, who is going to be up at 6:00 to 9:00 in the morning anyhow?
274. MR. M. McHALE: As the father of a 10-month old, I do it all the time.
275. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thankfully I have recently passed that stage.
276. Original voices, that's focusing on aboriginal peoples, right? For stuff like that, have you talked to other producers? Would you look at co-producing or sharing windows with, say, APTN?
277. MR. M. McHALE: The reality of broadcasting in Canada today is that all broadcasters and all different chairs are sharing windows, and we certainly would. That's an obvious partner, and it means that there are bigger budgets and a bit more opportunities for Canadian audiences to see the programming.
278. MR. K. JOHNSTON: In fact, we have talked to the Aboriginal Peoples Network about this program, that there definitely would be co-production possibilities.
279. We have also had discussions with other countries in the world that would be very interested in working together with us and the Aboriginal Peoples Network.
280. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I move to nature of service now? We had asked, in one of our deficiency questions, about a nature of service, and there are various parts of it in the deficiency response and in your application. What I have done, just to try and simplify it, is to draft three short paragraphs that we have taken from various different things, and if I can just give you this draft now, and I will just read it into the record. I will give you a few copies. I am just going to read it out. And this is a draft, so it is not what we are saying you must do if you were to be licensed, but it's just to try and narrow it down into a few words that would fit into a licence:

     "World Télémonde (WTM) will provide a national service available and accessible across the country with two feeds (eastern and western) in English and one in French.

     The service will be dedicated to providing news, public affairs, film and entertainment programming from Canada and around the world in the original language of production and will reflect Canadian and global cultural diversity. Through the extensive use of subtitles in English and French the service will be widely accessible to Canadian viewers.

     Through this inclusive form of programming, WTM will facilitate insight, understanding and integration by providing its viewers with direct windows on the people of Canada and the world."

281. You can either give me your comments now or think about it and let me know later.
282. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I would say this was plagiarism. I certainly like what I read. It means what we say.
283. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, then we don't have to carry on with the hearing. I think we are all agreed.
284. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Well, I mean, if it's a condition of licence, I think it's possible.
285. Kerry?
286. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I could just add, I think there's just one component that I think we have to emphasise in here, is the cultural context of the programming. When we talk about a movie being shown in prime time that comes from Europe, it's not just going to be any movie from Europe. It will be a movie that has been selected because it enables or provides Canadians with an insight into either the historical or the current contemporary culture or conditions within their country.
287. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, it is certainly plagiarism because what we have done is to look at various parts of your document, and hopefully not added or interpreted too much. It's cut and paste, really, from a few different areas of your application and letters.
288. I should just mention that the Hearing Secretary has a few extra copies if anybody in the audience would like to have a look at it.
289. Could I ask you then to get back to us in the final stage if you've got any changes you would like to that, or any particular wording changes?
290. MR. M. McHALE: Commissioner, one question we left, I think, unanswered, as you outlined methodology and questioning us at the beginning of our interchanges, how is it different, how is the international programming different.
291. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
292. MR. M. McHALE: And, you know, 94 per cent of the world's programming never appears in North America. I mean, we are in the really great position of having the ability to go out and cherry pick from that 94 per cent. And that number will probably grow. What has happened in Canada over the last decade is now starting to happen in countries all around the world.
293. Korea went from three over-the-air stations. They recently -- a year ago they launched 11 pay stations. That's just one country. Australia, from a number of the VHF stations, now suddenly has cable stations, has Sky coming in with hundreds of channels. Europe, there is a syndication market in Germany. It's the first country outside of Canada and the United States that has a syndication market. And all countries have a local content requirement. So that number, the 94 per cent, will probably start increasing even if we are licensed and we start showing programming from around the world.
294. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The 94 per cent, does that include American programming?
295. MR. M. McHALE: That includes American.
296. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And how much would be non-American, non-Canadian?
297. MR. M. McHALE: Of the 94 per cent?
298. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
299. MR. M. McHALE: Probably around 90 per cent. If you take India, for example, the world's largest producer of entertainment programming, we just mentioned briefly the sitcom "Shanti". We also mentioned in our presentation Sajik Ray, one of the great directors. No one has ever seen his programs in Canada on television. Japan's Kabayashi, we all seem to think that Grosab (phonetic) was the only director to come out of Japan, the same way we would think the Korizmaki brothers are the only people in Finland.
300. North American audiences have not been exposed to the incredible television that's out there. A lucky few attend festivals here in Toronto or around the planet, and we see this incredible programming, and there is no outlet for it in Canada at the moment.
301. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So why do you think the existing networks and specialties ignore this wealth of programming?
302. MR. M. McHALE: Their nature of service. The networks, their nature of service concentrate on a lot of simulcasting. It's an economic model that works. So it's simulcast with the U.S. The CBC has a different agenda. Some of the specialty channels, yes, are starting to bring in some international programming, but there is still an incredible amount out there.
303. I think it's basically an opportunity for World Télémonde to come along and satisfy the appetite for this type of programming. And the days of subtitling being a turn-off, I think they are gone, ever since "La Femme Nikita" was a mainstream breakthrough in box office right up to "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". People will go to see subtitles, and they are everywhere. They are even in the opera, subtitles or supertitles. We all accept them.
304. MR. D. IANNUZZI: It's also a fact, Mr. Commissioner, that there are many -- if you go to the markets in Cannes and so on, there are many programs that are "one of's", and North American programmers don't really go for the "one of's", and if they did, the programs are not North American links. Directors like to do programs that are 63 minutes long. In their country, that gives them one and a half times the credits, whereas packaging must take place. We have got to bring that down, put the blacks in it, and run the programs within full-time schedules in North America.
305. We have had that experience in an earlier life of having to repackage practically all of the world programming, and we are going to be able to do that again, not unlike A&E that repackages the programs to fit certain themes and so on. So this is one of the reasons why a lot of North American programmers love the programming, but then they don't know how to fit it into their schedule because they've got other plans, and specifically, the simultaneous broadcasting automatically puts that out of their schedules.
306. MR. M. McHALE: Commissioner, the concept has been used in two coutries, SBS Australia and World Link in the United States, and if you just look at SBS in isolation and say, "Oh, well, their audience is dropping, therefore, there is no real need for this type of service.", you have to take it in the context of the incredible number of new channels that have been launched in Australia. And if you take their proportionate share of the market, as well as the other over-the-air networks, ABC, et cetera, their market share hasn't declined that much, not significant. It's just that they are now facing competition from 85-90 channels, as opposed to, in the past, four or five channels. And they use the exact same concept we are talking about. They bring in programming from all over the world to Australia, and it's all subtitled. And they have pioneered the use of enhanced subtitling, and not just that they look better on screen. They go to great lengths to make sure that the translation is correct. And we will have access to that database, SBS, as well as being an over-the-air broadcaster, licensed database of subtitling.
307. The other example, World Link. And it's easy to be dismissive of it and say, "Well, it's a not-for-profit." But you know what? The viewer at home who is watching the program Jamaica ER has not idea it's a not-for-profit and couldn't care less. It's a good program. It's coming in from Jamaica, and it's a great example that, you know, the only thing they produce down in Jamaica is reggae music. Well, no, Jamaica ER is a pretty interesting program. It's got a neat audience in the U.S. and it's starting to attract an audience in the United Kingdom on Channel 4.
308. So they are two models that are similar to ours, what we are proposing, in marketplace that is virtually similar. Australia, their demographics are that almost half of all Australians now are of non-U.K. extraction, and the U.S. is a land of immigrants, just as Canada is.
309. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me just ask you one question on SBS while we are on the subject. I took a look at their website and just pulled down a couple of schedules for June the 10^th and 11^th -- and I picked those days last week because it was a Sunday and a Monday. And a lot of it is, as you said, stuff in various languages with subtitles, but there's also quite a bit of stuff from -- at the end of each paragraph they state the language that it's in. So you do have in Russian, English subtitles, but you have also got a few from the U.S. in English, from Australia in English, from Ireland in English.
310. How would you make sure that there's a balance of stuff which is in English as well as in various other languages? I mean, what I'm saying is you wouldn't end up with a lot of Australian, American, Irish stuff, and say "There's your multicultural channel.", right?
311. MR. M. McHALE: Well, one myth we have to break is that the only language used in Ireland for producing is English. That is not correct. Televail (phonetic) is a Gaelic-speaking station. It was launched four years ago, and only broadcasts in the official language. And coming from the Gaelic-speaking of Ireland, I'm quite proud of that.
312. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This one is from Ireland and England.
313. MR. M. McHALE: And BBC Whales is one of the leading cartoon producers in the Welsh language. So even those two countries are recognizing their multilingual backgrounds.
314. We were talking about a limit of 10 per cent from any one country in the world.
315. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, actually, a more important question about SBS, and I know that World Télémonde, you folks have looked at this very closely and for a long time. What have you learned from that that works, and what have you changed from that?
316. MR. M. McHALE: What is interesting is they looked at us and took a business plan that was created by Dan Iannuzzi, and Malcolm Long, who is mutual friend of ours, who is former Managing Director of SBS, that's where he learned about the concept for SBS. So it originated here in Toronto and was adapted in Australia.
317. The biggest thing we have learned is that there are some restrictions on SBS, and they like to take programs from as many countries as possible within one week. So they haven't the same kind of vertical and horizontal programming schedule that we're thinking of.
318. Talking to SBS, it's something that they would like to do and start moving to, and they are looking to us as the architects of where they go next. So in some ways, it's not a case of we are watching them and going to copy them. They took our original business plan and used it in Australia, and now they are waiting to see what we will do so that they can go to stage two.
319. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But in terms of -- I understand they have adopted it from your plan, but now they have run it for some years. Based on their experience, what do you find is workable and not workable?
320. MR. M. McHALE: I think the biggest single thing that works is their approach to subtitling.
321. I know the frustration I have, and I hate picking on the Korismakis, but they always seem to have a white BMW with white subtitles running across it in their movies, and it's really infuriating because I don't speak any Finnish. So they have taken a totally different approach to that. They colour code them so that you can read them.
322. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Colour code means that it automatically doesn't subtitle on top of the same colour?
323. MR. M. McHALE: Yes. They will review it to make sure that doesn't happen. They will also use different fonts. Everyone is familiar with photo shop kerning so that you don't have jagged edges. They have also hired an incredible number of translators. They felt it was very important to get a translator to look at the original script. And I think the last time I was up here, the example I used, like water for chocolate. If you look at their translation of like water for chocolate and the translation that was used -- and I think it was Miramax who distributed it -- totally different. All the humour was missing. That was an incredibly funny movie, poking fun at macho Mexican men. But in the translation, it was done down and toned down, and really wasn't as funny.
324. I attended a screening in New York with friends from Spain, and they were cracking up laughing all the time at jokes that were totally missing. And that wasn't the case of the jokes not translating properly, it was just a bad subtitling.
325. So we gained from their experience in subtitling and the incredible library of subtitles that they have.
326. Also, it means that when buying programming, we can form an alliance with SBS or World Link and go out and acquire programming and buy them as a North America/Australia deal and get a better benefit or pricing.
327. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I could just add to what Michael was saying, one of the things we have also learned is through their market studies and their audience studies that the majority of people who watch this programming are Australian-born and they are at the high end of the marketplace. So this has been demonstrated -- I think they have done the study two or three times, and this is their appeal. Their appeal is more to Australians in second, third and fourth generation.
328. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you say high end of the marketplace, you mean higher ---
329. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Economically.
330. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a few questions on Canadian programming.
331. You have promised an overall year one level of 40 per cent going up to 60 per cent to Canadian programming in year seven. And I'm looking at your schedule, and I see various blocks of programming portraying events outside Canada. So could you just clarify for us where the 40 per cent of Canadian programming is?
332. MR. M. McHALE: In year one of the broadcast week, we are looking at 24 hours produced in-house. This is overall -- 24 hours produced in-house, 39 hours acquired or co-produced, which is 63 hours, and then world content needs 63 hours, giving a 50/50 split.
333. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And by year seven, when you will be 60 per cent overall, which of the blocks of foreign programming have you dropped off?
334. MR. M. McHALE: That will be driven by audience reaction. Programs that are not performing, our journals that are not performing, we will start cutting back on as we introduce more and more Canadian production. Also, you can play with the repeat factor by reducing ---
335. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And for the evening, you have committed to 50 per cent Canadian content.
336. MR. M. McHALE: Correct, for the duration of the licence.
337. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And that, you are looking at 6:00 to 12:00, right?
338. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
339. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What would be the figures for 8:00 to 11:00, which is perhaps more the prime time of Canadian content? That's all foreign content?
340. MR. M. McHALE: That's all foreign content, international programming at the moment.
341. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you think that's a weakness, 8:00 to 11:00 or 7:00 to 11:00 not having Canadian content there?
342. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think so. I think that the "World Regional Journal", when we moved it around on the schedule, and we were quite dizzy, seven o'clock seemed a really good time slot for it, that audience that are interested in news will have finished with the Canadian network broadcasts and, more than likely, would go to our programs. And rather than going up at eight o'clock with our "World Regional Journal", because we see it as a flagship, and we wanted to get the maximum audience for it, as opposed to going up at eight o'clock, where certainly the U.S. simulcasts start happening here in Canada. So it made the most sense for us.
343. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Now, you are talking about identical programming on your English and French themes. How much of that will be, in terms of Canadian programming in English and French, how much would be English and how much would be French origin, translated into the other language? Do you know what I mean?
344. MR. M. McHALE: It's the exact same programming on both channels, and we are looking at overall 20 per cent approximately being of French language programming.
345. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. But 80 per cent would be English subtitle into French, and ---
346. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, and French subtitled into English.
347. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The programming in other languages will be identical -- sorry, from other countries will be identical on both themes?
348. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, all programming, in fact, will be identical. The only difference being the subtitling.
349. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. I want to clarify your commitments with regards to Canadian independent production, and I notice in your opening today on page 17 you had some figures. The fourth point you made here, Mr. Iannuzzi:

     "We will [have] close to $90 million over the course of the licence, including $38 million in programming to the independent production centre."

350. Is that correct? So the independent Canadian production centre would be $38 million?
351. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Yes, $38 million over the term of the licence, yes.
352. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks.
353. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We believe that to be a minimum because our whole focus, if one follows it, that independent production will drive that in Canada because that's the mainstay of our mandate, as we see it. I mean, to have as much and the best of the world, that's something which is, again, part of the specialty, but "la raison d'être" is the new introduction into the broadcasting system is the Canadian programming that will be produced here, both in English and French to the various regions in the country by independent producers who are ready, willing and able to produce this kind of programming.
354. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have a sense of the proportion of in-house programming to independent programming?
355. MR. M. McHALE: I think over the course of a year it was 416 hours Canadian, 442 independent production, on average.
356. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Could you repeat that, I'm sorry?
357. MR. M. McHALE: Sorry?
358. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Could you just repeat that slower so I can write it down?
359. MR. M. McHALE: Okay. An average 416 hours of in-house and 442 of independent.
360. If I may add to what Dan had said about our financial commitment, also in the area of script development and production planning, I had mentioned in my opening remarks that we are going to look at the Channel 4 model, at what Stephen Wally has achieved at that station. And it's not just script development. It's also production planning. They had found that that was one of the key areas where they could help independent producers. You just don't give them a check and wait for a program to appear.
361. Also, by doing deals with film collaboratives and guaranteeing output, that you will take x number of programming during a certain period.
362. And in the other area that Channel 4 have worked to help the independent sector is in the trainees. One only has to look at the credit roll, say, at -- I am familiar with "The Name of the Father" by Jim Sheridan, and the incredible number of trainees that appear in the rolling credits at the end, and it's not just token jobs as a PA, craft services. It's in every category, creative and technical, and it has developed a whole new generation of creative and technical individuals from diverse groups that were previously trained in colleges, but had no opportunity to find work.
363. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So for the development you are talking about $4 million that's mentioned on the bottom of page 12 of the oral presentation today?
364. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
365. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My next question is to ask what languages you will be using Canadian producers for, but I would assume that would be any and all?
366. MR. M. McHALE: We would see it predominantly English and French, but we are open to any. We would see the Canadian production as being predominantly English and French language.
367. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you wouldn't be doing a lot of production in other languages in Canada?
368. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think so, unless someone comes to us with a really incredible proposal.
369. If I may pass to Howard Bernstein, who is working on kind of a hybrid one. If you can mention that one?
370. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Yes, we are right now doing a documentary for RT (phonetic) in France, and the documentary is in English. It will run on RT in English. RT is an interesting channel. We have German co-producers. We are producing it in English, and it's running in English on a French channel, without subtitles, by the way. They're just running it in English. And I am told -- I have never seen it, but I am told RT runs -- if they get a Russian documentary or a Russian show, they run it in Russian in France. They don't even both to subtitle it, and they are getting very good audiences. They are the leading presenter of cultural programming in Europe.
371. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I can just add, I mean, if someone came to us with an interesting proposition for production that called for the use of another language and it was Canadian, and that added to it and was necessary, then of course there would be no question about that.
372. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Mr. Chairman, there are also -- as you well know, I have spent a number of years in an earlier life dealing with independent producers whose programs are seen on ethnic-specific stations and networks who are quite good at what they do, and in many cases are kept locally. The idea there is that both in the programs that we have as community magazines will give some of these producers an opportunity of having those programs that really are community programs. A lot of the programs that we see on some of the ethnic stations are produced for specific purposes locally and wouldn't find space nationally, but there are those producers who really are in the business of doing this, and that we expect to maybe tutor them, in some instances, so that they can bring up the quality of the programming for national distribution. And some of these programs may be in the language of original production, which we will subtitle, because we feel that that particular program produced by that particular producer in that community warrants this being shown nationally, both with English and French subtitles.
373. MR. K. JOHNSTON: In fact, I was speaking to an independent producer during the week, and we were talking about western diversity, and he came up with an idea that would involve numerous languages out of the west and the history of the est. How can you deal with the history of the Prairies without looking at the Manitoba Schools Act. So it would be in French and it would be in English, and it would be Ukrainian. There could be a number of languages involved.
374. MR. F. KHARAS: If I could add, we could also do Canadian programming under co-production treaties, where you could -- if you are shooting, or for some, to be shooting outside of Canada, even though it's Canadian content, you can quite often shoot in the country's language. This is becoming quite involved nowadays around the world.
375. "Traffic" is a very good movie that's an example of that. "Traffic" -- I don't recall the exact percentage, but I believe about 40 per cent of "Traffic", which of course was an Academy Award nominee, was in Spanish. So that this is happening more and more. And by the way, of course the Spanish was subtitled, yet it was a very popular movie.
376. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So just to finish on that, by and large, the independent third-language producer wouldn't be looking at WTM as the first place to go to. They would continue to look at the other multilingual third-language services. And I'm not trying to push you to say yes, because you can't be everything to everybody. I'm just trying to understand what it is ---
377. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Can I answer that?
378. I am going to be the person commissioning that stuff, and I don't think -- other than making sure that 20 per cent of the production is in French, I don't think we really care what the language is that is presented to us, as long as the show idea is a good idea and it's clean.
379. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I won't pursue that one.
380. Mr. Johnston, you had talked about co-production or cooperation with APTN. Do you anticipate co-productions or shared windows with other broadcasters, whether ethnic, English or French?
381. MR. K. JOHNSTON: In Canada or around the world?
382. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, within Canada. Do you anticipate ---
383. MR. K. JOHNSTON: We certainly would be open to that, but at this point in time we haven't got anything specific on it, but there's nothing stopping it.
384. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the things we looked at is regional programming, which for your purposes would be in the English feed or in the English production outside of Toronto, and in French would be production outside Montreal.
385. Do you have any goals or objectives in ensuring some level of production outside Toronto for English, Montreal for French?
386. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, we do. Again, the current tax credit situation certainly makes it advantageous to produce outside the major metro areas.
387. Also, people across all areas of Canada have interesting stories to tell. So yes, we expect to have quite a bit of regional production.
388. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I can add, I mean, this region alone -- and we have made a special commitment to this region, and we have had a lot of very positive reaction from independent producers in this region. The same with the "Francophonie" in Manitoba have been very supportive and want to be involved. There are people in British Columbia who have put proposals to us. So we will not be a Montreal/Toronto based -- we will be the face of Canada.
389. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I personally was in the Maritimes and made close contacts with Chris Zimmer, the IMAX people, and he is very interested. He took me around and showed me the facilities and everything else. They are interested in doing regional programming that would fit on our type of network. They have got some tremendous stories. I mean, he could just stand there and roll them off, of the stories that were regional, that would be very interesting on a national basis, but it would take a channel such as ours to find the room and the environment in which to run these stories. These are truly Canadian stories that have never been told, whether it's about the blacks in the Maritimes, as an example. And the history that goes with that would not only be valid here in Canada, but that is certainly the kind of production that would be exportable to other countries, including the United States.
390. So we do have that. We are thinking -- if one looks at our whole set-up, the way we are decentralized, with Ottawa and the Capital region being our head office and a good production centre out of here, out of Montreal, where we would have an up-link and produce local programming in that area. Toronto would be primarily the marketing and promotion area, and although we would have an up-link there for programs that come from out west.
391. So all total, we are decentralized in order to get the people involved in the various regions so that when we say we will look like truly Canadian programming, it's that within our Canadian programming produced here, we will have the regions reflected into that.
392. So with our subtitling we reach a wider audience for programs that are not being seen on other channels, as we know now.
393. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I just ask you in terms of some of the things we have talked about here in Canadian programming, whether you would be willing to accept conditions of licence? And I will just go over the ones I want to again, so you don't have to guess which ones I'm talking about.
394. First would be the 40 per cent overall Canadian content in year one, going up to 60 per cent by year seven. And the second would be a 50 per cent Canadian content level in the evening -- you are stating that for 6:00 to midnight. Is that right?
395. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Correct.
396. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you accept a condition of licence on those two issues?
397. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, we would.
398. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What could you commit to with regards to independent production versus in-house production? The number you gave here was a little bit over 50 per cent independent. Or do you want to think about that and get back to us?
399. MR. D. IANNUZZI: No, we thought we would leave it in dollar terms because that's tied into a percentage of our revenues.
400. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
401. MR. D. IANNUZZI: So if our commitment stayed at that level through the seven-year period, we would probably be doubling our commitment to independent production.
402. As I said, we have no intention -- want to be in the television business, and the kind of business that differs from others, the way others are doing it, and the best way to do that is to be out there working with independent production. This is going to give us the flavour that we are not a local television station acting as a network. In this case, we are a network that ties in the regions of this country and are bringing this programming together. And we will be up-linking from at least, minimum of three areas, Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa, and eventually out west, as the independent production increases and the reason for up-linking, say, out west would be that we would have a local, live, regional program on a daily basis.
403. So our commitment is an integral part of our application to the independent sector. So we have no problems about finding that percentage, which is -- if it is 50 per cent that way, or better still, the amount that we are talking about spending over that period of licence, as a minimum, and work it from that point.
404. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So could you just clarify that amount then for the record?
405. MR. M. McHALE: In dollar terms we are talking about approximately $39 million or 18.01 per cent of gross revenues over the seven-year period.
406. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And in terms of regional production, we might not go with a condition of licence, but is there a commitment you could articulate in terms of regional programming across the country? As I say, if you like, you can get back to us.
407. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We could do that, but we are still one network with two services. The mainstay of the production is the language in which it's produced. We already come forth and say that we will have a minimum of French language programming ---
408. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
409. MR. D. IANNUZZI: --- produced in French-speaking regions, i.e. Quebec and some of the francophone areas out there. Plus the English programming, then it is our interest to see that that's -- I can't equally divided, because we are looking for stories in various regions, but certainly it is our intention, and we can try to put that in some condition of licence, that it is a cross-section of the regions, programming coming from the regions of Canada.
410. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: If I can also add that the nature of the marketplace is such we would be far better off economically if we went to the regions because there is far more money available for production outside of Toronto, Montreal -- well, Toronto and Ottawa.
411. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Our commitment is to cultural diversity, and as a network, we want to reflect the cultural diversity of the country, not of Toronto or Montreal. We want -- the stories of this country that haven't been told are largely those stories that have evolved the diversity of the country historically and contemporarily.
412. If we go back to Charlottetown, I'm thinking of the role that cultural diversity played behind the scenes in Charlottetown. That never really got onto television.
413. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a question about third-language programming. How will your programming overall, and especially the world programming focus of your service, impact on the existing ethnic third-language services?
414. MR. M. McHALE: I can answer that one.
415. Since we are looking at 94 per cent of the world's content that has never been seen here, it should have no impact at all. This is programming, for whatever reason, they never pursue. So I don't think we will have an impact.
416. And also, the audience we are going at, I think, is slightly different. We are going to a more culturally diverse as opposed to one language-specific service.
417. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Now, I know that you have made a commitment, and I will clarify in a couple minutes whether that is a commitment or or an expectation or a conditional of licence, that a maximum of 10 per cent of non-Canadian programming will be broadcast from any one country per month. That's 10 per cent from a country?
418. MR. M. McHALE: Correct.
419. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How about a language limitation? Would you be willing to have a language limitation as well?
420. MR. M. McHALE: We attempted to come up with a percentage that would work on language limitation, and it's virtually impossible. If you just take Spanish, for example, obviously you have Spain, Portugal -- Spain primarily -- then you look at all of South America.
421. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right.
422. MR. M. McHALE: It would be pretty hard to come up with a percentage that's very low that would allow us to have a variety of programming from all those different countries. I think we worked it out that if we were going on 10 per cent, then we could never show anything from Spain because South America would eat up the 10 per cent.
423. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. Well, you see, the reason, as you know, for these limitations is not to give you a hard time, but the way it tends to work is everybody says, "Don't put limitations on us, but put limitations on everybody else." So eventually one has to sort of -- if you have a system where there is a certain amount of competition, but still the specialty services have niches that they serve and that the overlap is -- we try to keep that to a minimum. Everybody is happy that way. So I am just trying to get a sense from you, as with the nature of service definition, how you would like us to fence you in?
424. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If I may make a try at this.
425. Again, from experience in an earlier life in this business, is the fact that you start off from programming being an art in itself, and that, as we say in Italian, "buon senso" usually takes hold of this, that you have to use good sense in balancing your programming.
426. Now, if we look at SBS Australia, in any one calendar year, they have programming woven throughout their schedule that covers some 90 countries. Now, one could say, "Well, they do that politically in order to satisfy all the stakeholders in Australia." Well, that's not true, because when you start dealing with programs that are programmed on all the national holidays of all the countries in the world, that gives you an opportunity of talking about that country and a bit of its history and its culture, and so on and so forth. It has given Canadians a new awareness on maybe as many as 90 countries. The average Canadian probably knows a handful. So good sense tells you that you would want to do that.
427. Second, the way that we are programming vertically and then horizontally doesn't give you the opportunity of strip programming; in other words, an hour's worth of Italian, an hour's worth of Polish or Greek, and so on and so forth. Your whole schedule then becomes what might be a regional ethnic-specific television station, i.e. Channel 47, which have a little experience in that area.
428. Whereas in our case, we are saying that the choice is the region of the world and whatever language may have been spoken there. So even at 10 per cent, we wouldn't go out and say 10 per cent of 126 hours per week is 12.5 hours. Well, that gives us an opportunity of putting two strips here of Italian programming. Well, Italian programming may not be the kind of programming that we want to fit in those, and not only that, we have divided into the regions of the world, which means that we could only deal with Italians, say, on Monday nights.
429. So some of that has to be left to us. I mean, probably with half a dozen percentages, you could tie this whole thing down and really protect whom?
430. The fact is that the ethnic-specific channels that are out there now are practically in one or maybe two languages, as in the case of Tele-Latino. And if that was the case, there would be at no one point could we not be overlapping with them, yet we would probably be doing that once a week, whereas they are doing it all the time.
431. So the impact, I believe, firmly believe, is not there. It's not our interest to program against an ethnic station, whereas we would be going after that small market, which is already a niche market, whereas the larger market is the area in which this programming is really in.
432. MR. K. JOHNSON: Once again, I go back to say, you know, our target audience is that audience of Canadians who have interests in different parts of the world. I may be very interested in Latin America, but I don't necessarily speak Spanish. I may have business interests in Latin America, but I'm not going to watch Spanish television. I'm going to watch this because I will be able to understand it.
433. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So then you shouldn't have a problem giving us a condition of licence that would limit you into a block, because you are not going to go there -- that would limit you in terms of a percentage of -- a maximum percentage of a language that you would ---
434. MR. K. JOHNSON: What do we say in terms of Spanish? I mean, I don't know. How do you put a limit in terms of Spain, being from Europe, and then Latin America being from Latin or South America and the Caribbean.
435. MR. M. McHALE: Likewise, Cantonese, China, from Vietnam, Korea. I think they are the two languages that we have the problems with, Spanish and Cantonese, because they cover such a wide variety of countries in a huge geographical area, that giving a certain percentage that allowed us the flexibility in programming ---
436. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is there a percentage, say, higher than 10 that would work? If you were doing 20 per cent in Spanish, you are a Spanish station almost.
437. MR. K. JOHNSON: On one evening of the week.
438. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. One evening, as I understand ---
439. MR. K. JOHNSON: So let's take one evening of the week and it's Latin America and the Caribbean. We are going to do some of the stuff from the Caribbean, that's for sure.
440. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But over the week, that wouldn't come to 20 per cent.
441. MR. K. JOHNSON: I beg your pardon?
442. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Over the course of the week, it wouldn't add up to 20 per cent Spanish.
443. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's why we were saying 10 per cent in any given month, because that would give an opportunity to have flexibility in a programming schedule that does not have strip programming. That's the whole -- but if we did -- again, in an earlier application we had talked about -- we had started off with 20 per cent in any one language or any one country, and then we worked it out to 15, and then there was discussions on that to try and lower it for the impact.
444. The fact is that those -- and broadcasters who are licensed here for ethnic-specific either unilingual or two languages, as in the case of Tele-Latino, or Fairchild. That both is Cantonese and Mandarin. How can we then say that they have been licensed in order that no programming from those areas of the world, as large as China is and the amount of programming is, that this became an exclusive licence, because that's what you're doing.
445. When you are forcing us not to carry, and just carry a little bit, we have got a funnel this wide, and you are asking us to put it down this small hole and make sure that not more than a half an hour of Cantonese comes out because that may affect -- may affect -- the Fairchild.
446. On the other hand, Fairchild and/or Tele-Latino are buying the bottom of the barrel, that is to say, for the moment. And then there's some exclusive programming that really should be seen. You know, if you fill a station full of "télé-romans" and so on, you've got the cheapest programming going in the world.
447. Well, we're not going after the cheapest and the most common denominator because we don't have enough area, enough time in our schedule to deal with the common denominator. We must deal with the best because we are trying to bring that to Canadians, spending the extra money to subtitle it in English and in French, to promote it, because we have to bring an audience away from somewhere else in order to come and see this one program.
448. So by putting the limitations here is making it more difficult. Where you have to maybe not put limitations, but have those broadcasters that you have licensed to become more of a variety of programming rather than staying in the common denominator, and not feel that we are going to compete with them.
449. MR. K. JOHNSON: The thing is, I don't it's the intention of anybody to deny Canadians access to programming from around the world. The one barrier that stands in the way for most of us is linguistic. So our commitment is to overcome that barrier.
450. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The question, one more time, and I will move on, I promise.
451. Is there a level that you would accept as a condition of licence for a language? You have mentioned 15 in the context of an early application. Is that a number you could live with as a condition of licence? Or again, if you would like to think about it and get back to us ---
452. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I would. I think it is so important because there's a balance here. So if we're saying, on the one hand, in our presentation what we are discussing and how one arrives at the type of schedule that shows there is balance, we are bringing the world in, and therefore we want to balance it to try and match it with the peoples of the world who have chosen Canada, both first and second generation, and third and fourth through subtitling, then we have to show balance. It can't be out just because Dan Iannuzzi is of Italian origin. This is another Italian station, and because I've got my friend here, we're going to do some French, and we're going to do some Irish. We are not doing -- this is not a personal programming. We have thought this out. And when I say 10 years, I'm being a little polite here.
453. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Mr. Iannuzzi, I don't -- believe me, I appreciate your explanation, and we understand the complexity for you, but part of our job is also balancing a whole lot of things, balancing where we think people should have some kind of safe zone to operate, and also competition. We believe in competition to sort of set the sort of balancing act that we need to do at the end of the day.
454. So let's just leave it that you will get back to us.
455. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I will, or we will discuss this matter at the next break, and by the time between now and the end, we will think of that as a condition of licence.
456. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I appreciate that.
457. On U.S. programming, you have committed to not exceed 25 hours per month. Is that correct?
458. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's the 10 per cent, which is ---
459. MR. K. JOHNSON: Same as any other country.
460. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. So are you okay with that condition of licence on that?
461. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Yes.
462. MR. M. McHALE: Twenty-five (25) hours per month?
463. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Ten (10) per cent of 126 is 12.5 hours.
464. MR. M. McHALE: Once again, it's not in our interest to run a lot of American programming that is accessible to everybody.
465. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But you know what -- and this doesn't reflect on you -- but a lot of people come at licensing time, and in the context of their application it makes a lot of sense, but then you get out there and you try to make ends meet, and the cheap American programming takes you a little ways sometimes. So there is that temptation to do a lot of other good stuff and to put up with something which you might not ---
466. MR. K. JOHNSON: I understand that earlier we had made much stronger commitments in terms of American programming, and we were counselled that there would be problems with NAFTA if that was written -- possible problems.
467. We have no problems ourselves with a lower limitation on American programming.
468. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there any other types of limitations that you have given any thought to, for example, where you may be in competition, for example, films, types of films, third-language -- well, we talked about third language -- sorry -- sports, any other genres that you think would be relevant? With regards to types of films, for example, could you end up doing similar films as other specialties who do a lot of films?
469. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think so. Again, I keep going back to 94 per cent of the world's programming is not available here. Dan alluded to -- I don't want to say bottom of the barrel, but ever since I contacted Antenna 1 in Greece, I have been inundated with e-mails and catalogues, begging me to buy Greek programming. That's never been picked up here, their top shows.
470. But we are not going to be competing with the same movies. I think on the Canadian side there may be opportunities, just because of the current financing structure, to have a co-production, or be involved in a production with a number of Canadian broadcasters given different windows, and we would take a window along with other partners, and whoever put up the most bucks would get the first window.
471. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I might add that the -- if we take into consideration Showcase, as an example, from the time it was licensed, it has a number of foreign films with subtitles that are shown in the late hours of the evening or early morning, and these are generally programs that the owners of that particular channel are in the distribution business, and they buy films, and they buy those that are usually theatrically box office, you know, the Cinema Paradiso and La Vita Bella. These are the kinds of programs that they end up seeing. Now, we are not running after those particular films because we understand that those are the ones that end up theatrical, and the first run are usually held by the Miramax in the United States and Alliance here in Canada and so on.
472. So we are not out to compete with them. There are so many films that never see the light of day here in Canada because they choose the few that go to the markets and the ones that they know will have a particular box office value. And then, of course, now they have an outlet for that, so that when they are out shopping, they can buy a little more of those.
473. But we are out to select, as Kerry said earlier, films from the countries that are reflective here in Canada but have something to those films that show the dynamics of those countries so that the people in Canada who are watching that, that come from that particular region, have a certain pride that this is a film produced in their country by one of their best directors and so on.
474. I know that if there's a film in Canada and I know it's produced by Berto Lucci (phonetic) and so on, but there are other films by Moretti and so on that I enjoy seeing. But I also have a sense of pride that goes with it that people from that particular region of the world are competing and are winning awards and so on. You know, if you're not a soccer player, then maybe you are a moviegoer. And that's the area that we are looking at.
475. We are looking at other films, not necessarily the ones that only win. Why should we go out and try to outbid Atlantis on those things?
476. MR. K. JOHNSON: Michael had mentioned in his opening statement, you know, the works of Ray in India, Kobayashi in Japan. I mean, those are masterpieces of world cinema that have never appeared in Canada on television.
477. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can you just define for me in a sentence, if you can, the kind of films -- what would describe the films that you would be showing?
478. MR. M. McHALE: I would say the best of the world cinema previously unseen in Canada.
479. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay.
480. MR. M. McHALE: On television.
481. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Two more questions on Canadian programming.
482. MR. D. IANNUZZI: To finish one on that, with our strategic alliance with SBS in Australia, they have over 15 years worth of film for which they have done all the editing and the subtitling, which gives us, from day one -- that's without even going out and looking for trouble -- a selection of thousands of films, classics, masterpieces and so on, that have never been seen. So that if we start bringing those in to get the pump going for the first few years, we will still be ahead of the game before we start buying jointly with them and with the channel in New York that we, as a tri-group, on a tri-purchase, will be able to bring in some first-run world programming.
483. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And just on those, the SBS ones that have been subtitled, do you have the ability to strip the English subtitling and put French subtitling on it?
484. MR. M. McHALE: That's correct.
485. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Two quick questions. I understand the two feeds, the English and French, will be identical, so you won't be running two separate services?
486. MR. M. McHALE: Correct, identical.
487. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you could accept that as a condition of licence?
488. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
489. MR. K. JOHNSON: When we say identical, if there is something that is coming out of Quebec that we want to show, and we may not be showing that in Quebec. So there is some flexibility. I mean, I would hate to see us locked in ---
490. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you be willing to accept something like a condition of licence that it would be identical except in special circumstances where up to five per cent or 10 per cent may be ---
491. MR. K. JOHNSON: Absolutely. Absolutely.
492. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: --- not identical.
493. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Because they may be running the same day, but not simultaneously hour for hour. There may be some other programming on the French networks in Quebec that it would pay us to move the drama half an hour up, and the movie an hour down.
494. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But the programming would be the same, for the most part?
495. MR. D. IANNUZZI: But the programming would be the same, save and except for, as you said, on exceptional occasions, and that probably wouldn't run more than five to ten per cent.
496. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. With regards to filler programming, you had checked off the box 15 for filler programming.
497. The Commission has tended to deny applications for filler programming for specialties, primarily because the kind of stuff that would be there would be covered under other categories. It's a relatively small item, as far as I'm concerned. Is that something you could live with?
498. MR. D. IANNUZZI: The only reason that's there, as I was mentioning earlier, is that practically all -- it's very short from being all -- programs produced in and around the world are not cut to North American standards. Either they are too long or too short. So generally when these programs, if you start them at the beginning of the hour, you end up with anywhere from two to seven or eight minutes. And that's the kind of programming that we would want to design in order to present that as entertaining or informative filler program.
499. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This may be a good time to take a break.
500. Can I just mention what I want to go to next? We are not yet finished with the programming part. Mr. McHale, you cannot leave. I would like to cover three more areas, which are subtitling, a discussion about subtitling, world programming and the principles of multiculturalism as they apply to this application and what they add to the system, and then perhaps we will get to distribution and carriage.
501. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Mr. Cardozo, our Chairman, Mr. Demers, has to leave for Montreal at four o'clock approximately. He has a premiere of his film this evening in Montreal and, therefore, has to ---
502. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We could all come to that and come back tomorrow.
503. MR. D. IANNUZZI: You are all invited, if we could only finish this by 5:00.
504. So if there are any questions you would like to ask him, I think that this might be the time to do it, before the break, if we can.
505. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: There is one question, and I don't know if Mr. Demers or anyone else would be interested in this, with regards to the issue of subtitling.
506. On a totally unscientific basis, I would observe that there is more subtitling in French programming than there is in English, especially in the news, where when you are interviewing Premiers of provinces, not many of them speak French, for example. So is the French-speaking population -- is the francophone population -- do they tend to see more subtitling than the English-speaking population, and as a result, are they more used to it, or are they more fed up of it?
507. MR. M. DEMERS: The French population in Canada is more used to subtitles and there is more films subtitles that are shown -- or interviews, but I can tell you that it's only a question of habit. For instance, in Japan, everything is shown with subtitles. In Scandinavia, if I have produced a film in Spanish or in French or in Hungarian, they will ask for the Spanish, the Hungarian or the Chinese version that they will show to their kids and adults subtitled. And there is no problem. They have been trained to do that.
508. I think that they are resistance towards subtitling mostly exists in the English-speaking world, and that, as a way to control the programming on the whole world. They don't give access to the outside world to the English because they want to control. It's true in theatre. It's true in video and it's true on television.
509. And within a year or two, I am absolutely sure that there is an audience in Canada that will enjoy subtitling. As you have read probably a hundred times, film critics are repeating and repeating and repeating that they don't have enough of the original language subtitles.
510. I remember that in the years -- in the '60s and the '70s, Radio-Canada, we programmed every year at least 40 feature films in their original language that they will show with subtitles. And then we had access to the programming of those films, to have access to those films, and it had been reduced to two or three films, but the people then could enjoy it.
511. So if we come back, especially with the new techniques of subtitling, which are bigger characters and with colours -- and if I may, right now I am finishing the production of a big drama TV series that will be aired on Radio-Canada starting next September 15^th at nine o'clock in the evening. That series, produced in Quebec, was shot partly in French, partly in English, partly in Chinese, partly in Italian, and it will be shown as is with subtitling for the parts that are not in French. And this series is so good that even if produced this way, has been bought by CBC and will also be aired at CBC with subtitling.
512. So when we say that it's coming back, and the use is there, there is no problem. And we have the experience of some other countries, just to conclude, that are showing subtitling programming on their television since decades.
513. MR. M. McHALE: If I may add a totally unscientific viewpoint ---
514. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask you to come back to it later, because we will deal with subtitling. I just wanted to get Mr. Demers before he left.
515. Congratulations on your film this evening. You have won another award last week, I think, and I want to say congratulations, except that I have lost count of what the award was, or how many you have received.
516. MR. R. DEMERS: Thank you. That is very kind of you.
517. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for being here.
518. THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a break for 15 minutes. We will come back at 10 minutes past 4:00.
519. I believe, actually, our Secretary had something to ask.
520. MR. M. BURNSIDE: I would just ask, since we are trying to arrange for intervenors who are here to appear later, that their names be given to me at some point, because I understand that some of them aren't here. Mr. Volpe is not here yet. I haven't seen him, but I understand he's appearing this afternoon.

     --- Upon recessing at 3:50 p.m./L'audience est suspendue à 15h50

     --- Upon resuming at 4:18 p.m./L'audience est reprise à 16h18

521. THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We have taken a little bit longer, but we have rearranged our schedule slightly to accommodate two intervenors who would like to appear now as opposed to tomorrow with the rest of the intervenors. So we just had a little discussion, and we will make that accommodation.
522. So Mr. Secretary, if you wouldn't mind?
523. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Thank you, Madame Chair.
524. We will hear two intervenors. I would like to call Mr. Joe Volpe to present his intervention.

     INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

525. THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, Mr. Volpe. Nice to see you.
526. MR. J. VOLPE: It's nice to see you.
527. THE CHAIRPERSON: Happy that we could accommodate you, but you have to use your microphone.
528. MR. J. VOLPE: There we go.
529. I am delighted that you could have accommodated me, and I know that there was a little bit of confusion in the timetable and a lot of pressing issues that you have to deal with, but I want to thank you for that.
530. And of course, good afternoon to all of you. I think I know some of you, having met you before, the others I have not, but I bid you the same hearty good afternoon.
531. Madame Chair, I am pleased to appear before the Commission, I might say, once again, to speak on behalf of WTM Télémonde submission. Now, I say I am pleased to do it, although I would have preferred not to have done it, simply because without any rancour, I thought that the submission, the last time that the application was submitted, was fairly strong and would not have required any other intervenors. I know that you are familiar with that, as is at least one other Commissioner, and I hope that on this occasion, will be able to view the application from a different perspective.
532. I have no difficulties at all in speaking to the merits of this application. The Commission, I think, through its panels, has in the past voiced its concerns regarding both the viability of such a service even though the Commission recognized a need when it initially issued a call for applications some 12 years ago.
533. And as I say, it had some concerns regarding the viability of such a service and its impact on competitors, both real and potential. Those concerns prevailed on the Commission through its panels to deny WTM a licence, regrettably and unjustly so, in my view.
534. Almost 12 years have elapsed since the first call, and judging from the decision issued last year, the WTM project is not that much further ahead.
535. Now, as a legislator accountable to an electorate whose characteristics are the essence of the Canadian identity so in need of expression through popular medium, I ask myself why the Commission appear unable or unwilling to accept the WTM Télémonde proposal.
536. None of the reasons for the refusal it has cited in the past would stand scrutiny. For example, last year only one intervenor, a representative of a competing interest, a carrier, expressed any doubts concerning this application, leading the Panel, notwithstanding a phalanx of favourable submissions, interventions and documentation, ranged up by WTM's side, to reject the application. Yet the service was, and I believes continues to be, unique, even though others have had the opportunity of an 11-year window to submit a similar proposal.
537. In the intervening years, carriers have loaded up the channel dial with such culturally enhancing channels as the Shopping Network, the Golf Channel, The Cartoon U.S. Variety Channel, Speedvision, and not one, but two and several sports networks, et cetera, et cetera, all of them no doubt contributing to the objectives of the Canadian Broadcasting Act and reflecting of the country's official cultural policy, as expressed through the Multiculturalism Act.
538. I hope you will not read any sarcasm in this observation of fact.
539. What elected officials like me wonder is how priorities respecting the use of a public asset can result in a rejection of a WTM Télémonde proposal, yet lead to the promotion of proposals that occupy channels offering anything, anything, but Canadian identity and Canadian content. Clearly, those channels must have merit, perhaps not universally recognized, but at least I acknowledge it, but merit of a cultural nature, it has, nonetheless, and one that both reflects, I think, and contributes to the Canadian character.
540. Somewhere in the priority-setting cultural boardrooms, someone has understood that diversity is as much a part of the mainstream of the Canadian mosaic as diversification as the basis for sustaining the growth of an economic portfolio. And I imagine that would be the reason why you would have such diversification of channels on a dial.
541. Yet, with WTM Télémonde's proposal, which provides Canadians with a link to the various heritages that constitute our collective by offering opportunities to sample, and I daresay even live, the contemporary experiences of the many cultures of the world, in both official languages, I might add, this proposal is somehow relegated to a second tier of consideration.
542. Let's keep in mind that the application, as the Panel knows so well, will provide programming of a public affairs, as well as cultural, nature with expression in the original production from all parts of the world.
543. Now, is there a market, a clientele, for this type of programming?
544. Obviously the WTM group has provided you with an expensive, I might say, market analysis and polling that would give you an affirmative answer to that question. You can believe it or you can reject it. But I want to be a little bit more peroquial in order to illustrate that the answer should be an emphatic yes, by simply pointing to Canada's biggest market, the GTA and Toronto. Please bear with me.
545. According to the 1996 census, the GTA was home to 1,837,040 immigrants -- 1.8 million immigrants in the City of Toronto. The definition for immigrants under that census was somebody who had been here for less than 10 years. One out of every four Ontarians, according to that same census, was also so defined as an immigrant. It did not include people like me who had come here 46 years ago, or maybe others who had come here less or longer time, just those who had been here for 10 years or less. Remember, we are talking about whether there is a market for this type of programming, for this type of a proposal, whether in fact there is a sustainability by consumption and whether, in fact, there is sustainability on a purpose established by policy. One sixth of a all Canadians, one out of every six, lives in the GTA. Forty (40) per cent of all immigrants to the GTA do not speak English or French.
546. Now, quite apart from the communications issues that surface as a result of these figures -- and remember, they are not mine; they are census figures -- I think it becomes painfully obvious that the interest of individual Canadians in the GTA will not be limited by the fare that is currently being offered by carriers today. Toronto is not unique. It is home to only 44 per cent of immigrants. So the market for a WTM Télémonde product exists elsewhere. I might cite for you Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Montreal and even Ottawa-Hull.
547. I think the Commission must begin to realize that the demographic changes that we are experiencing today is a reality that cannot be left out of the consideration or out of the balance, out of the equation of any of its decisions. We are just dealing with an entirely different place than our policy makers knew when the CRTC was established. In fact, it's even different from the location that served as the laboratory for experimental policies when the Multiculturalism Act was established and when the Canadian Broadcasting Act, with its noble intentions, was established. Perhaps those people were a lot more far-seeing than we would give them credit for.
548. At any rate, the example I want to cite is that when the TWM Télémonde first began polling to substantiate its initial application some 12 years ago, before it did that, it was looking into a marketplace that was at the beginning of the spectrum that I just identified for you. The population of the GTA was 3,737,000 people. Last year, it was 5,163,952, a growth of 38 per cent. The reason I cite those figures for you is that if one accepts the validity of the market analysis and the polling that was done by the WTM Télémonde group 12 years ago, four years after that, four years after that, and recently yet again, then you can be impressed by the fact that the numbers can only be growing.
549. MR. M. BURNSIDE: Mr. Volpe, excuse me, but you have already exceeded your time. Could you wrap up, please?
550. MR. J. VOLPE: I will be finished in a moment. Thank you very much.
551. The only other Canadian city that has a population equal in total size just to that growth -- there is only one -- just Montreal and Toronto. Outside of Toronto, just Montreal.
552. Now, there are more statistics to substantiate the obvious, that there is a large clientele of Canadian viewers available for this application. From my perspective, I don't see them as viewers. I see them as electorate. I see them as Canadians desirous of a particular vision of the country and policy that sees them in a role in that context.
553. So on the strength of numbers alone, one would have no trouble agreeing that there is a healthy reservoir of available viewers and consumers for a WTM Télémonde product. On the basis of public policy, there should be absolutely no question.
554. We acknowledge that the country is a bilingual, multicultural entity and abide by the legislation and the policy that emanates from that statement. Now, you either accept that or we set aside this charade and say, "This is not that."
555. But if we accept that the policy statements issued by the Prime Minister, by his Cabinet, by the Minister for Heritage, by every politician seeking election in an election period, then we have to take these things into consideration as to what would be the expression of the Canadian life experience and it is reflected in the mediums that have become a public asset and a public vehicle for the realization of those objectives.
556. On that note, I think the WTM Telemonde's application has withstood as well the most intense scrutiny of its financial viability.
557. I think that what the Commission and the CRTC is adjudicating is not whether WTN is a viable fiscal, economic entity, but whether if it will be entitled to share in the wealth generated by the utilization of a public asset. The carriers and broadcasters are doing their very best -- God Bless them -- to corner as large a share of the channel market for their projects and stations, and they have a right to do it, but they also have no interest in tolerating or facilitating a competitive station on a dial even if public policy warrants it so. Who can blame them? Not I. Their loyalty is to the bottom line, not to public policy. And even if there would be -- I hope you will excuse this personal reflection -- regurgitated, outdated, American fare, as long as it turns advertising, that is a bottom-line consideration. That drives their modus operandi. That's fine, but that's not what those of us who are in public policy and legislation are about.

1. We need to have innovative programs and we need to have programs that are useful to strengthen the Canadian identity and the Canadian fabric. For us, for them, programming and channel distribution cannot be at zero. The curators of a public asset, that is the CRTC, cannot allow themselves to be burdened with a material approach only. The carriers in broadcasting in question are not small players in the Canadian economy. And I don't think that we should be in a position to make any decisions on a proposal like this one on the basis of any damage that might occur to the economic viability of existing carriers and broadcasters.
2. I might cite, for example that the CEO of one of the major cable companies, according to Business News just at the beginning of the week, indicated he took home a pay in excess of $8 million dollars for last year alone, personal pay. Obviously, this is a lucrative business. There's lots of room for the exercise of public policy because we are dealing with a public asset. No one can begrudge that CEO or any of the other companies their profits on investments. I repeat, the medium is a public asset whose purpose it is to serve the public's needs. Private profit, though important, is secondary to public purpose, but I digress.
3. I believe that WTM Télémonde is not in competition with any of the current carriers, owners, broadcasters. They are providing a product that is completely different from the current fare to an audience which is currently unattached to that fare, and which is growing.
4. You will probably agree that WTM does deserve a licence, well and good. Your challenge, and I hope it is an easy one, is to provide those millions, that I cited for you, whom I have identified for your consideration a few moments ago, with a location on the dial to measure it with the demographic, cultural and economic impact on the Canadian economy that their numbers merit.
5. In short, I ask on their behalf a channel on basic carriage. The carriers know there is a need. They don't demonstrate the will. I hope you will. Thank you.
6. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Wylie.
7. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Volpe. It's nice to see you back at our proceeding.
8. MR. J. VOLPE: We don't want to make it a habit, Madame Wylie.
9. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: We love to see you.
10. THE CHAIRPERSON: You are very eloquent.
11. MR. J. VOLPE: Thank you.
12. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I think my questions would only take away from your eloquence. Your position is very clear.
13. The only thing I can say, as a legislator, it's always easier to look at things from 30,000 meters above ground and at the level of regulation and actually getting all of the details of how the system can work together. That's what we are trying to do as honestly as we can, and we will continue to examine the application in that spirit, but we do appreciate your eloquent participation in our process. We were happy to accommodate you, although you seem to have missed out on a trip to Italy, I understand, or you just postponed it.
14. MR. J. VOLPE: It's a minor sacrifice for the purpose of this exercise.
15. Madame Wylie, I thank you for giving me credit for having a macro-picture of where we would be going, and being one that wouldn't be embroiled in the details and allow himself to fall prey to the temptation of the devil in the detail.
16. However, I am familiar with the fact that regulations do exist in order to realize the intent of legislation in public policy, and we have in this country, for better or for worse, made a decision to devolve some of the authority that the people vest in us to third bodies, arms-length bodies, and then we trust -- and through their individuals we trust that they will exercise those regulations in the way that we had intended the policy to be effected. So there is a collaborative effort. And while we don't deal in the detail, we certainly follow it very thoroughly.
17. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Mr. Volpe. I repeat that it's nice to see you again, and we will proceed to look at the details with a view to trying to anchor them towards the 30,000 meters above ground.
18. MR. J. VOLPE: Or higher, as the case may be.
19. Thank you, Madame Wylie.
20. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram.
21. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Volpe.
22. I am certainly not prejudging anything, and I, for one, don't decide what I'm going to decide until long after I have read the transcript, but I can tell you very clearly I don't worry about financial damage to the cable companies, and I take very seriously the fact that we are administering a public asset.
23. But I do worry about damage to people and affordability. And I can only use hypotheses because I'm certainly not going to prejudge anything. If I agreed that this service was one that was of a tremendous value to the system, the financial facts remain that virtually 90 per cent of the financing of this particular service is proposed to be paid by subscribers to cable. And is that the right subset? If there is a public good, and for the purpose of this question, I will concede that, and if it is a public asset, who should be paying for this. I mean, because I choose not to take cable, I don't pay for it, or is it the taxpayer? Or is it some subset? And that's what troubles me primarily.
24. MR. J. VOLPE: I am happy to hear that, that that is the case, Madame, because in my view, whether -- in the administration of that public asset, whether a private company exercises its prerogative to impose a charge for the use of that public asset, or whether the legislative body imposes a tax for the purpose of financing the diffusion of that medium, it's the same thing. There is, though, a very subtle difference and a very important, pragmatic, economic difference, and that is that the private administrator of that public asset is entitled to derive great benefit from it.
25. And the reason that is, in my view, is that parliament, in its wisdom, has recognized that the investments, the private investments associated with making this particular asset available to as broad a spectrum of the public as possible, required some investments that parliament was unwilling to provide. But in a shared venture with private investment and the concession by parliament of the utilisation of that asset, there is independent wealth that is developed from it, and that wealth, because of the monopoly nature associated with the administration of the asset, was supposed to go to the developing of the technology that would make the medium accessible to the greatest number of Canadians possible.
26. Secondly, that any wealth that was generated from the administration and the utilisation of that asset would be distributed amongst those who would provide programming that would be in tune with the policy indications of parliament itself.
27. So is there damage that's going to be done by having a particular location on a dial or, in fact, by having a licence where others might not? No.
28. Who should pay? Well, of course, all those who are going to be utilising that asset. And I realize that that isn't completely consistent with the particular philosophy of government, of which I am a part, i.e. that we have those things that we judge to be of widespread universal usage should be financed by the public in general. But we have already made that decision, as I said. We decided that that would be one thing that we would join with private sector to resolve, and that's why we accorded to various companies the right to carry, without competition, that asset, that public good, for the consumption of Canadians.
29. Now, not all Canadians have chosen to utilise that particular facility, as you have indicated you are one.
30. I mean, I have often felt that I didn't want to be a cable carrier either, but when the cable company in my area raised the rates, I didn't have much choice. I couldn't throw them out of office, like my constituents can do to me. So the tax came on all the users. And as long as they can justify the level of that taxation and the public accepts it, then I think that there is very little reason for the intervention of the legislator.
31. COMMISSIONER CRAM: So if it's user-pay, and I can probably accept user-pay, the problem is, because you have asked for it to be put on basic, it isn't user-pay. It's everybody who subscribes to a basic set of cable. And instead of it being the particular individual who would like to see this channel, it includes people that you haven't named in your cities across Canada. It includes people from Manitoba and Saskatchewan, where I come from, who were immigrants, but perhaps are third and fourth generation now. I mean, we are al immigrants.
32. And so what subset -- is it the users that should pay for it, or should it be financed out of the broadest base, which is what Télémonde is asking for, out of the broadest base of cable users, who are people, subscribers, who include, I am going to say, 90 per cent of your electors who may not, some of whom may not have use of it. The question is the subsets, in my view.
33. MR. J. VOLPE: And I suppose it's a valid observation, Madam. Quite frankly, you are right. Perhaps 90 per cent of users of cable don't have a choice in what is on that basic. For example, I don't have a choice on it, but I pay what I pay for the basic package because somebody else said, "This is what will be on that basic package." And whenever the tariff goes up on that basic package, I don't have the option to decide that I want something else.
34. Now, there are certain rules obviously, as you know, for trying to get on the dial at the most accessible location. The carriers make those decisions, in large measure. Well, you do. That's right. But for example, where I am, I have, on the very low part of my dial, I have the menu for what's on my TV. I don't know why we have to chop down trees for me to find out the same thing, but at any rate, it's there. And I also have a Shopping Channel, which is something I need desperately, and is really consistent with the policy that I try to outline and for which I am responsible. But at any rate, these items are all part of the package that I pay for because my cable company says, "This is your basic package. So Joe Volpe, whether you're a legislator or you're a consumer, you either put up a satellite or you use this." Now, I guess in my intervention I tried not to be exclusive about what happens in Canada, but I did try to be parochial in order to illustrate what is happening in many places. I could have listed many other cities where the impact was probably not as dramatic, but I chose the ones that I chose, for better or for worse, because it seemed to illustrate that the numbers are going in the direction of those who are not being served by what is on a basic dial today. That number is growing.
35. And so if we are going to address today and tomorrow, then my suggestion, my intervention would make greater sense. If we are looking in the other direction, then it doesn't make as much sense.
36. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, Mr. Volpe, just as long as you understand that you now have an input into somebody raising your cable bill on the basic level.
37. MR. J. VOLPE: Yes.
38. COMMISSIONER CRAM: And please remember that, if that does happen, and say the same to your electors about any increase in the basic cost.
39. MR. J. VOLPE: Ma'am, you are absolutely right. I receive dozens, in fact, hundreds of calls every time the cable bill goes up. I don't mean to bore you with this, but I have a difficult time trying to defend some of the decisions by a private company because I have a difficult time having to defend my own policies, and not everybody agrees with them. So I don't mind carrying my cross, but I guess in this office one must carry the cross of others as well, and I don't mind doing that. And if I'm asked to make a decision, then I'll live with the consequences. That's the accountability of our system. Thank you.
40. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.
41. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, Madame Chair; thanks, Mr. Volpe.
42. I just want to take the question that Commissioner Cram asked one step further, because it's interesting, you are a Member of Parliament and you are in touch with your constituents on a very regular basis, and you deal with people all the time, and your riding is also a very multicultural mix. Egglington and Lawrence, people have been there perhaps generations in that same area, and people who arrived in the past few months, I'm sure.
43. Do you think there is -- I am assuming, by your being here, that you think there is an appetite and interest in this project on this channel in your riding, keeping in mind the cost of it, which is $0.35 a month, which would come to $4.20 a year.
44. MR. J. VOLPE: It's less than the cost of a popsicle on a hot summer day.
45. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, and some of the things that those same people don't have is the choice when they get SportsNet for $0.78 a month, where they don't have a choice, and sometimes we might not have been involved in that either.
46. MR. J. VOLPE: Well, the answer is an unequivocal yes. There is obviously an appetite. And is there an appetite for an additional $0.35 a month? You can write my constituents and tell them that their Member of Parliament said yes.
47. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, what is your response to ---
48. MR. J. VOLPE: Madame Cram, I'm watching you. It better be written right.
49. COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm taking notes.
50. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: This is on the transcript. We've got that. We don't have video, but we've got transcripts.
51. THE CHAIRPERSON: That's on the transcript.
52. MR. J. VOLPE: You said it twice.
53. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: One of the things the cable operators tell us is -- they say, "Look, you are far removed from the customer. We, the cable operators, deal with our customers every day, and if we give them SportsNet, whether they ask for it or not, we've done surveys and we know them, and they are prepared to pay the $0.78, but don't tell us to put on some other service because it's got a public policy purpose, when you are off there, not dealing with our customers on a daily basis."
54. So I just want to relate this to the issue you're talking about. You are a legislator. We carry out some of the functions that people have entrusted parliament do to. And we have pressed ourselves forward at times with the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, for example, with very strong opposition from cable. We said this had very important public policy purposes. We did that with TVA, Télé des Arts. We have done it with other sorts of services. I guess you can't do that with every channel. You pick and choose when you really want to go out and say, "This is really an important public policy purpose."
55. I just want to ask you whether you think this is one of those purposes where we should step up and face the music if there is unpleasant music?
56. MR. J. VOLPE: Well, I have already said to one of your colleagues twice already, you don't have to step up and face the music yourself. There is a person who is elected to safeguard public policy, and he stood up at the bat, not twice now -- this is the third time -- and said "Yes." He's there because he thinks that that is a function of anybody who is executing public policy, and it must be done.
57. I will tell you something, Mr. Cardozo, and I know you appreciate this, as I think all others would as well, I didn't feel diminished when TVA went on. I didn't feel diminished when the Aboriginal Network went on. I didn't feel that I had suffered. You know, my desire to watch soccer in Italy or the South American soccer leagues, just simply because somebody at SportsNet was making the decision to put their number on something else. I didn't feel I had suffered at all. I didn't feel I suffered when we had another two French channels on, and I come from Toronto. There must be, in my riding, 1,000 francophones, including me, out of 115,000. I didn't feel I suffered at all, quite frankly. I felt a little enriched. At least it saved me from turning on yet another American channel, at the very, very least.
58. And my point in my presentation is that like my constituents, all of them, I am going to feel enriched if somebody stood up, went to bat and said, "We're going to do this. This is going to cost you $0.35 a month." You know, I would prefer it didn't cost me anything, but $0.35 a month is a heck of a lot better than having to spend $0.70 plus for a channel I'm not going to use.
59. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very much.
60. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Volpe, I am sure that all of your friends in Parliament will be happy to know that they can refer their complaints about cable to you.
61. MR. J. VOLPE: Sometimes they do.
62. THE CHAIRPERSON: And we will make sure to tell them that.
63. I just wanted to say -- I want to thank you, but I just wanted to say that the advantage of arms-length bodies in a parliamentary system is that those arms can often carry crosses that parliamentary arms would rather not.
64. MR. J. VOLPE: Well, let me just finish off -- I don't, Madame Chair, you would like to finish off on a positive note ---
65. THE CHAIRPERSON: You have enough of your own, so we take some of those crosses off.
66. MR. J. VOLPE: And I appreciate that.
67. However, I think it's incumbent upon all elected officials to assume the responsibility that is accorded elected officials when they receive authority from the public. I am not one of those who philosophically agrees that we should have third bodies assuming some of that responsibility for us, no matter how useful those third bodies are.
68. So I am willing to take the beating.
69. THE CHAIRPERSON: In the case of the broadcasting system, would you really want politics and broadcasting to mix? That is the age-old philosophical question.
70. MR. J. VOLPE: You are taking me down a road I would dearly love to go.
71. THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's not. We have another person who shares those hallowed halls with you, who is here. At one point he did anyway.
72. MR. J. VOLPE: He may not want to take the bait, but I really would have liked to, Madam Wilson.
73. THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure we will find an opportunity.
74. MR. J. VOLPE: Thank you very much.
75. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
76. MR. J. VOLPE: And thank you to all of you for listening so attentively.
77. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
78. MR. J. VOLPE: Ciao.
79. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary?
80. MR. M. BURNSIDE: I would now like to call Gerry Weiner.
81. INTERVENTION/INTERVENTION:
82. THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, Mr. Weiner.
83. MR. G. WEINER: Thank you very much. And I too want to express my personal thanks for the manner in which you have been able to accommodate me. I still have some obligations in the City of Montreal that are in an elected capacity, and as a member of its Executive Committee, some activity on Friday which is of high priority. So I thank you all very, very much.
84. It's good to be here, and this is a topic that I have carried with me for much of the last 30 years that I have been involved in public life. So it was particularly important for me to participate today, as it was last year.
85. Today being National Aboriginal Day, our First People teach that our message should always begin by telling a little about our family and ourselves. Even though I didn't bring a resume, for those that may not have met me, I am a pharmacist by profession, having first entered the corner drugstore some 50 years ago, and I might add, still qualified to practise today. I am currently a councillor in the City of Montreal and a member of its Executive Committee. This is actually my fifth appearance as a member of a government. On three occasions, at the municipal level as a mayor or councillor, and two terms as a federal Member of Parliament and Minister. I am proud of the opportunity my citizens have given me these past 20 years to represent them, and I am even prouder of the opportunities given me to be a community volunteer and to be a vigorous community activist.
86. In my federal government activity, I am proud of the role I played as Minister responsible in passing the Canadian Multiculturalism Act and in establishing the Department of Multiculturalism and Citizenship. I was always seen as an advocate of change, never wanting to accept the status quo as being adequate, and that is certainly what drives me to return as an intervenor before this Commission, as I did last year.
87. In my presentation to you last year, I made the following remark, that I was filled with anticipation, hoping that somehow this institution, the television medium, would understand that we are no longer what we once were, and that it, like every institution of our society, must undergo the required changes to maintain its relevance and importance.
88. I still wait in anticipation for you to grant this application, the licence that will bring the full dimension of Canada to one of our important institutions. As important as this application was last year, it is even more critical this year.
89. World Refugee Day yesterday was another reminder of the more than 15 million people who seek a safe haven and possibly another 100 million on the move, desperate for greater economic activity.
90. The evening news, more particularly on the BBC, highlights a world in increasing close contact. It leaves us desperately seeking the stories behind the news, not just the 12-second byte of peoples in conflict, but the behind-the-scenes stories of culture, the arts, the foods, the religions, and the traditions that go to make up the inhabitants of various regions. Trade barriers are falling, and we are travelling far more for business and pleasure, all good reason for knowing as much as possible of each other and sharing the dreams and visions of the world.
91. Canada is now recognized as the most culturally diverse nation on earth, a nation that has, within its citizenry, the histories, tradition, perspectives and interests of the peoples of the world. Canada has, as a consequence, become an extremely complex society, no longer as a traditional means of defining whom we are, what we are achieving or where we are going.
92. Our complexity requires that we create new models that will enable communications to be more inclusive, more aware of the impact that our diversity, and that of the world's peoples has on views, interests and perspectives.
93. Diversity is the reality of our society. It is opportunity, not a problem. Our citizenship guarantees equality and demands inclusion, not exclusion. We have the right to be equal, but the equal right to be different.
94. In my previous incarnations, I have always challenged each institution of the society to reflect this reality, to make the necessary changes so that we all will feel we rightfully belong. We have made much progress together, but we still have a long way to go to guarantee the equality of participation and opportunity to all.
95. Si vous m'excusez, je représente une ville où nous parlons une autre langue, peut-être des fois plus couremment, et j'aimerais bien continuer pour un petit discours en français aussi.
96. La télévision est devenue, depuis son invention, un des grands moyens de communication. Aujourd'hui, tous les foyers possèdent au moins un appareil. C'est instrument s'est transformé au fil des ans, non seulement en un moyen de divertissement, mais aussi un moyen d'éducation, de connaissance et d'information. La télévision nous a permis de voir le monde et de découvrir qu'il peut être à notre portée. Grâce à la télévision, nous avons été les témoins d'événements importants sur notre planète, comme si la terre devenait de plus en plus accessible, comme is les frontières n'existaient plus. Le village global est déjà alors à notre porte grâce à tous ces moyens de communication qui ne cessent de se développer.
97. Ce que propose Télémonde est un regard sur ce monde, un regard en français et en anglais, mais aussi dans des centaines d'autres langues, un regard neuf sur les cultures des divers pays qui cohabitent sur notre planète. Et sans aucune déformation ou interprétation, les citoyens du Québec et de tout le pays auront un accès direct à toute cette diversité de points de vue et de préoccupations mondiales.
98. Comme vous le savez sans doute, Montréal est une ville où une centaine de communautés culturelles ont choisi de vivre. Une télévision comme World Télémonde, qui présentera aux gens des émissions dans leur langue d'origine, sous-titrées en français et en anglais, ne peut que plaire aux Montréalais. Tout comme les citoyens de Montréal, cette télévision sera diversifiée et intéressante. Elle contribuera à éduquer et à faire comprendre la différence entre les peuples. Grâce à ces émissions, les gens de toutes origines apprendront à connaître et comprendre les différentes cultures. En tant que Montréalais, je ne peux que partager l'enthousiasme d'une telle télévision. Elle sera le digne reflet de la réalité Montréalaise qui compte 40 pour-cent ou plus de citoyens d'origine autre que française et anglaise. Tous ces citoyens pourront regarder des documentaires venant des quatre coins du globe, et nous en sortiront enrichis.
99. Une entreprise comme World Télémonde ne peut donc contribuer à la bonne entente entre les diverses communautés culturelles de Montréal et du pays tout entier. Elle aidera à abolir les frontières crées par les différences en nous les présentant dans leur milieu de vie. Elle contribuera à l'éducation sociale et permettra à tous d'accepter des différentes cultures et leur point de vue.
100. Television, like every other institution, must accept the need for change to better reflect our reality, especially in view of it being probably the most effective teaching tool of this generation. For many, unfortunately, it is their only source of continuing education. If it isn't seen on the tube, then it has no value, nor any importance. As a politician, this has been made indelibly clear to me, but we still must do better.
101. Multiculturalism is still being accused far too often of being state-sanctioned balkanization that produced classes of citizens with hyphenated identities and questionable political allegiances. What nonsense.
102. It is the exact opposite. A society is being built based on cultural diversity. We are strengthened and enriched by that diversity, and world television is an excellent example of how it can and must be done. The television medium must participate in the growth and maturation of our society, in making sure that diversity is a contributing factor to integration and national unity.
103. I believe that my reality is not much different than that of an increasing large number of Canadians. We seek, on a daily basis, the stories behind the headlines and the experiences that make the stories relevant. We do so from our worldwide web, and we do, in greater measure, from our TV screen. We hunger for the knowledge and understanding that can be shared in the new world order, a global world where country borders are no longer boundaries, but permeable membranes for a free-flow of experiences.
104. May 2000, I expressed the view that there was a need to ensure that diversity, which is not new to us, but it has greatly increased over the past, must be reflected through our TV screens. I asked how you could share these threads with your new neighbours and friends. How can you really feel you belong if all that you brought with you is somehow reduced in value, reduced in importance. We, to a large part, remain denied that we seek, denied because of the failure or the reluctance of the media to break from the traditional dominant views of both Canada and the world.
105. My expectations that, following the excellent presentation of WTM last year, the broadcasting system would attain a new level of relevance with contemporary Canada, were crushed.
106. But like those associated with World Télémonde, I believe this application to be so important to our nation that it would be irresponsible to walk away from it. How can one turn one's back on a concept, a proposal, that is so vital to the interests of Canada. WTM is a business proposal, a sound business proposal that is based on an understanding of the contemporary market and the growth that lies in it, but WTM is so much more, for it is a model that can strengthen our capacity to develop our own views of the world, views of the world and the entertainment of the world's peoples that will enable us to retain the Canadian uniqueness. This need becomes greater and greater as we are increasingly offered TV programming that finds its roots in the traditions of the past and/or that of our neighbours to the south.
107. WTM must be considered by you to be in the national interest. Its contribution to priorities legislated in our Constitution and in numerous acts, including those that broadcasting and multiculturalism will be unique. These contributions become increasingly critical as our diversity increases, as we are exposed to more and more programming that is either extremely niche market oriented, and as the global village, with its communications between peoples of the word, becomes an increasingly dominant part of our lives.
108. I thank you very much. Merci beaucoup pour votre attention.
109. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much, Mr. Weiner. It's really nice to see you again.
110. MR. G. WEINER: Thank you.
111. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cardozo.
112. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madame Chair.
113. It's nice to see you again, Mr. Weiner, as well, I might add. It's nice to see you back in the National Capital Region, and I guess once you leave here, you can just never stay away for very long. It just draws you back.
114. You mentioned the role that you had in the Canadian Multiculturalism Act, and the other act, of course, that you had a role in was the Broadcasting Act, which was also updated during your term in office. And one of the clauses there deals with the requirement for the broadcasting system to reflect the multicultural and multiracial diversity of Canada, and indeed, WTM has talked about that quite a bit in their application.
115. I just wanted to get from you a sense of how much of a value added you felt this application would be in that goal, in terms of having the broadcasting system reflect diversity. Because pursuant to what you, as a government, and other legislators have done, was to outline a vision that would include a lot of things out there. We have, at this point, various radio and specialty television channels that provide service in a range of languages.
116. There are services like Vision T.V. that is multi-faith channel. And then one of the things we've been pressing quite a bit in recent years. And this, I think, really you would find quite interesting, is impressing the mainstream in quotes "English" and "French" stations, the services like the CBC, CTV, TVA and others to reflect the 1diversity of the country. So a lot of these things are beginning to happen and a lot more needs to be done. So my question to you is, does WTM provide enough value added to put that into some kind of quasi-obligatory status for it to be cared by the cable systems and do you think people like the ones who elected you are prepared to pay for the service?

1. MR. G. WEINER: Well, let me first begin with the latter part, that the constituency that I have traditionally represented, very actively, has been the cultural community constituency, first in the West Island whereas a 30 year resident, the City of Dolllard Desormeaux in particular, I served as a councillor and Mayor, is highly diverse. Probably one-third of its population or more are members of visible minority groups and its cultural diversity is a very high proportion. And there's a strong feeling of alienation. We all want everyone to know more about us and who we are and where we've come from.
2. And as I indicated in my brief dissertation, far too often the 12 second bite on the news shows an area of the world in conflict or in crisis and it doesn't give us the opportunity of going to the stories behind the news.
3. I indicated, the traditions, the lives, the culture, the heritage of the people. And we know so little about the world that if we all catch is that 12 second bite, we know nothing about what's going on. And far too often, even I, who have travelled extensively around the world, who has spent time in all the continents before and even now; I'm an avid follower of much that goes on on the world wide web, I still thirst and I say, "Gee, I didn't know that." Imagine the opportunity that could be provided to me.
4. So I look at this as a unique opportunity to speak to me from the tongues of the world, from the experiences of the world so that I can better understand my neighbourhood, my community, the community that I am a part of. I want others to feel that they belong as strongly as I know feel. I didn't always feel I belonged. I am part of what's called the "Double-minority" in Quebec and you often feel alienated.
5. So from that point of view my constituents would see that as a benefit. The area that I now represent in downtown Montreal still has that same broad diversity.

1. There's a small school in Montreal -- just a anecdotal fashion which I may have told you about last year, where there's 650 students and 647 of them come from 100 countries of the world. I mean this is the new reality of Montreal and of Canada.
2. So I don't find it in my flipping the channels with my remotes, which is a male disease, and the more I read into what Danny Iannuzzi and the team have been doing these last 15 years because it seems to me that this began when I was just getting wet in Ottawa and trying to bring forward a continuing image that the late Prime Minister Trudeau had started in multi-culturalism.
3. Just coincidentally, he and I lived on the same street. He lived at the end of the street and this is kind of an infection that got into my system, to be a scrapper for minority rights, to be a scrapper for those who did not feel they had enough opportunity to express themselves. And I guess it makes me even prouder to be here today to speak on their behalf. And I could tell you that they would see this as a tremendous addition and a confident way of speaking to their neighbours and a confident way of feeling that their contribution has really been recognized.
4. And, yes, there has been progress, as you say, because in challenging each institution of the society you have to really reflect that some progress has been made, but not enough. There's still far too much exclusion.
5. Too few of us are still being given an opportunity. And while we start seeing a few different faces on the tube, this is just scratching the service and we're not yet through that iron curtain.
6. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very much.
7. MR. G. WEINER: Your welcome.
8. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Weiner. We really appreciate it and we were happy ---
9. MR. G. WEINER: Thanks a lot.
10. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- that we could accommodate you.
11. MR. G. WEINER: Well, thank you, and I'm delighted to be back with you and I look forward to reading and hearing about the decision that you'll be asked to make. Thanks again.
12. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
13. THE SECRETARY: We'll now return to the Phase 1 portion of the hearing. I had asked Mr. Iannuzzi's group to return to the Table.

    REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

14. MR. D. IANNUZZI: One would say in show business these are two acts that are hard to follow, but we'll try.
15. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Iannuzzi, just so that you know what our plan is, it's our intention to sit until 7:00 o'clock and we'll try and get through as many of Commissioner Cardozo's questions as possible.
16. We were happy to accommodate your two star acts, but one of the downfalls of that, is that if Commissioner Cardozo doesn't finish with the questions that he has, that that may affect the travel plans of someone like Mr. McHale for example. I mean that's your decision; it's up to you whether or not you want to proceed without him, but I'm not sure that you'd want to proceed without him or without any of the other members of your team.
17. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We're going to be brief in our responses in order to make this happen by 7:00 o'clock. Tomorrow, we leave that mostly for marketing and distribution and so on.
18. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, actually, we're going to cover distribution and carriage today and we need to do marketing and finance tomorrow.
19. But we may run into some programming stuff tomorrow morning as well, so that's ---
20. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I think we might be able to handle that if there's just a few.
21. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
22. MR. D. IANNUZZI: But if the bulk of it is done today, then I'm sure we could carry on tomorrow. But we'll be brief in order to try and accommodate as much as we can today.
23. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that's great. Thank you.
24. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So short questions and short answers will get us moving faster.
25. THE CHAIRPERSON: You'll have a rapid fire exchange of ideas.
26. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In effect, yes.
27. My next question is subtitling, and in the interest of speed if you want to subtitle some of your answers, you're welcome to do that to and speak to the rest.
28. Let me just -- a couple of questions about subtitling.
29. I understand that you you're committing to 33 per cent of your programming will be sub-titled over the day and 50 per cent during prime time; is that correct?
30. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's correct.
31. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I've seen the poles that you've provided with us and I just want to get your view on this.
32. There are people who are saying "Yes, provide the programming in the original language so you get the taste of it, the feel for it, the emotion and the rest of it and sub-titling is a good idea.
33. Is it your view that when it really comes down to it, people will sit down evening after evening or on a regular basis and watch sub-titled programming in the evening?
34. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, I think they will. And even though it's a totally unscientific personal point of view, going back to your earlier question to Rock was, were french-speaking audiences more susceptible of sub-titling than english-speaking unscientific personal point of view, going back to your earlier question to Rock was, were french-speaking audiences more susceptible of sub-titling than english-speaking.
35. I would use a different divide and say it's an urban versus rural and that people who live in urban areas are more likely to accept sub-titling on a regular basis than rural. And the bulk of the Canadian population today lives in urban centers.
36. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And why is that, because they've seen more foreign films?
37. MR. M. McHALE: Greater exposure and it's also becoming mainstream. When you see the U.S. network, ABC, using sub-titles at prime-time, they broadcast, you know, a program in Spanish, all the commercials during that program were in Spanish with English sub-titles. It's now a reality.
38. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have a plan "B" if it turns out that your sub-title program just isn't getting watched as much as you'd like it to be watched?
39. MR. M. McHALE: We are a 100 per cent confident that will not happen based on the experience of SDS in Australia and based on the acceptance of, you know, starting with La Femme Nikita onwards. People accept sub-titles.
40. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Certainly, yes. Things like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, they are -- La Cage aux Folles a few years ago, these are -- I'm just wondering if these are exceptions that end up being such box office hits as opposed to things where people who watch it every day.
41. MR. M. McHALE: I disagree. In Europe people accept sub-titling. It's a fact of life. And, again, going back to Australia, a predominantly English-speaking country, people watch sub-titling on a regular basis and their market share of SDS is quite impressive.
42. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: I want to add something, Dan.
43. Just in the Canadian experience, TVO recently ran -- recently, five or six years ago -- ran a series called "High Man from Germany." This was a series that was not well known in this country. This was a series that very few people knew about in advance. It was one of the great successes of their television season. It was run in its original German with sub-titles and the sub-titles were not high quality sub-titles, and still it drew a substantial audience.
44. MR. M. McHALE: And of no doubt, all 96 episodes received a great audience. And the experience in the U.S., it was broadcast primarily on PBS stations in Washington State, in Oregon with the same exact result.
45. MR. DAN IANNUZZI: One other point is, that we're not going to be giving programming or bringing programming that's already available to Canadians and therefore they say we can get that one dubbed in English, we'd prefer that one to this one. We're bringing programs that are presently not being seen on television. And if we got that audience that wants to see these programs, then they will have to, through the use of subtitling, get used to the fact that that's how you see the programming from the world, because there's no other -- until we get "A" an "B" channels and then multiple channels, maybe the technology ten years from now will be able to give as many as 10, 15 different translations and so on, but I doubt that.
46. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are you planning to come back with a whole lot of more channels?
47. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Just like coming back is right.
48. So Canadians who want this type of programming have agreed to things in our surveys: (1) that they would take it with sub-titles; and (2) they were willing to pay for it.
49. So I think that that's an expression of demand and it certainly goes beyond anything that you and I could try to think of why they wouldn't.
50. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have a sense of a number of Canadians who would not be able to access subtitling. And I'm thinking of -- there are surveys that the literacy levels in Canada range between 20 and 40 per cent, depending on what you're looking at, but at least 20 per cent of the population don't have enough literacy to read newspapers. You've got people who may be very literate in other languages, not in English and French, so they'll be able to watch programs if it's in their language, but not if it's sub-titled. If you've got people who are sight-impaired or blind -- do you have any sense of any how many people would not have access to your two-subtitling?
51. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I'd rather take the positive side of this.
52. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, sure.
53. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Those people will be receiving programming that they can either understand in English or French and do not have to read the subtitles, are getting programming that they are not getting now: interest, Canadian-produced programming in English or French representing 50 per cent or more of the channels.
54. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Than un-subtitled?
55. MR. D. IANNUZZI: With the subtitles, but if they can't read, that doesn't bother them because at least they're either speaking English or French or both.
56. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Can I just add? I'm also involved with the foundation that represents those literacy and the promotion of literacy. And when I speak to people they see this as an asset, this is something that will encourage people to. In terms of those people who are very recent immigrants to this country, this will be another enticement. I've also spoken to the "Hard of Hearing", not the Deaf, but the Hard of Hearing Association. They see this as a very positive thing. It opens up new worlds for them.
57. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you'd prefer to go to subtitling movies as opposed to dubbing?
58. MR. M. McHALE: I think all surveys in the U.S. and in Canada show that people really don't like dubbing. You lose all of the nuances. Subtitling is much preferred because you can see the compassion or the craft of the act on screen and by reading the subtitles get a better feeling that getting someone in the study sitting in front of a microphone trying to dub and sync their voices -- I don't think dubbing ---
59. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you don't see doing any dubbing?
60. MR. M. McHALE: No.
61. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, I've got a few questions on world programming.
62. From the record I observed that you've got a number of letters that date back to '93 and '96. Is it your view that these are still valid? Have you been in touch with these people?
63. MR. M. McHALE: Prior to this application and our hearing in the last hearing, I sent out with the beauty of E-mail probably about 300, 400 E-mails overnight. And I'm still innundated with requests, catalogues. The mailman must wonder what I do at my home because I give my home address. I mean I received a box of tapes from an independent producer in Denmark who said basically I could have the programming, please broadcast it, regular E-mails once a week from the people at Antenna One in Greece who would love to sell their program in Canada. The German public networks, WDR, Télévision de Catalona (phonetic) who I think are one of the best documentary producing stations in the world.
64. Firdaus can talk about Asia; he travels in that part of the world all the time and can give some indication of the kind of programming that's available.
65. MR. F. KHARAS: Well, there's no ownership programming available throughout the world.
66. What has become more interesting since this application process, apparently it's been going on for 12 years, is that if you looked at it 12 years ago, the quality of the programming and the quality of the programming coming out of Asia and Latin America today are absolutely dramatically different.
67. I think that 12 years ago the quality of programming might not have been appreciated by Canadians as they are going to be now. There's very little difference in the quality of programming being produced in Western countries and the quality of programming being produced in developing countries today. It's much more transportable and much more exportable out of Latin America, Africa and Asia than it was several years ago.
68. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I could just add. We also -- I have letters that -- we can't table them because they're not Canadians -- from Ambassadors from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, who are offering to help us get product from those particular regions in Eastern European, Central Europe.
69. MR. D. IANNUZZI: To be frank, Mr. Commissioner, going back to some of these distributors who have over the past decade have been supplying letters, the embarassment came out to answer the question, "You mean to tell me this has not been licensed yet in your country?" And the answer is, "Of course, it hasn't." And, therefore, we just stopped going back to them because it was embarassing.
70. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And you're dealing with -- you've been dealing with SPS recently?
71. MR. M. McHALE: Yes, we're in regular contact and they are still waiting. Also the folks at Worlings, Worlings, the head of their programming, Neil Ceiling (phonetic) who pioneered the live documentary series from Minnesota Public Television. He's just waiting for us to get on air.
72. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How much of your foreign films do you anticipate will be in English and French and how much in other languages?
73. MR. M. McHALE: I'll go back, and it's a question we need to answer on the -- if we want to have a cap on the language, foreign language.
74. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I'm not asking a cap question, I just want a sense of how much will be in English and French.
75. MR. F. KHARAS: Can I take a shot at that? If we look at the world, sir, film industries, and by far the largest is India which of course produces between six and 800 movies a year. To put that into perspective, Canada, we produce about 30 to 34 movies a year. In Hollywood they might produce about 100 to -- depending on how you count a Hollywood movie, but say 100 to 150 a year.
76. So, if you exclude Hollywood, the only major English language market from where you would get English language movies, are the U.K. and Australia.
77. After you go past U.K. and Australia, there are a few -- you know, Singapore might produce two or something like that, but there were fairly few.
78. In French again, after you get past France, then it diminishes considerably. Even though more than 50 countries in the world speak French, those 50 countries in the world are not producing a great number of movies. So that I think that if you look at the world's cinematic output, you're going to find that there's a huge diversity of countries that you can pick from. And that English and French are not going to be that high of a percentage of you're taking a proportion of what is produced around the world in various countries.
79. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, can we move to the principles -- I have a few questions around the principles of multi-culturalism as they apply to this application.
80. And I guess partly what I want to talk to you about is, is this more of a world, news and entertainment service or is it a Canadian news and entertainment service, neither one dealing with cultural diversity.
81. And I ask the question, because from our perspective, one of the things we have to deal with first, I think, is the Broadcasting Act instructs us to ensure that the broadcasting system reflects the multi-cultural and multi-racial reality of Canadians.
82. I want a sense of why you feel there's the importance for the world news and entertainment programming which is quite a substantive amount.
83. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Well, multi-culturalism recognizes the cultural traditions and perspectives of all Canadians and not just Immigrant Canadians. And when Mr. Volpe used immigrants the last ten years, he was only using that for a descriptive reasons. And we were talking about multi-culturalism being reflective of the history of Canada. To understand those cultures, and multi-culturalism emphasizes accessibility and inclusiveness, to understand those cultures we have to understand the history and the contemporary positions of those cultures in the world.
84. And what has happened in the global community, is the global community has become multi-cultural. So Canadians now have this incredible advantage of being linked to all the cultures of the world.
85. So the pressure upon us becomes greater to become understanding of this diversity, to enable this diversity to express itself fully, not just in terms of reflection on who's on here, but in reflection of the reality of the culture, of everybody's culture.
86. As Rock said earlier, you know, Dan shares his culture and he shares Dan's culture and mine and your's. That was the essence of multi-culturalism and how do we get there?
87. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: If I can add, during the last round of fighting in the Balkans, the Serbian people took to the streets in several cities in this country and they had very strong views about what Canada's role was in the Balkans.
88. There was no context on Canadian television for where Serbian views come from. No one knows about the history of that area in this country. No one knows about why Serbians felt so strongly about that area.
89. There are productions that come out of those countries that speak to the history; there are productions that come out of that area that speak to what's going on in those countries today. And I think seeing those, would allow other Canadians to understand why Serbians took to the streets.
90. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Is it possible to see what you're trying to do, is in a sense, two services in one: one is a world news and entertainment; and the second is Canadian multi-cultural channel.
91. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Well, I think -- I suppose it's possible to look at it that way, but I think that destroys the concept that we're trying to mold.
92. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you're saying that the local diversity is inextricably linked to ---
93. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Absolutely. And if we don't recognize that as a nation, we are going to lose out.
94. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Which of your programming, which is most accessible at best times, helps people understand each other and helps people understand you and you and Rock and so forth as you mentioned?
95. Is it the world programming part or is it -- because I just refer back to that block on the Saturday and Sunday morning which in a sense is one of the things where you see almost little or nothing of on Canadian programming is people talking to each other.
96. And so if there's something about immigration that somebody mentioned earlier, you know, a ship load of people or if there's a problem in the school or the workplace, where do people get a chance to really understand the dreams, the passions, the challenges, et cetera?
97. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Well, a number of programs have addressed that. I mean, the dynamics that take place between the various cultural communities is what we want to zero in on, the positives and negatives.
98. Canada now can be shown in any part of the country, it can be drawn from any part of the country, from Newfoundland, Saskatchewan to Victoria. Those kinds of things are happening all the time. We want to bring those things and put them on the screen right across the country in both official languages so that you've not got two perspectives, you've got one perspective that you're sharing with everybody, regardless of the language.
99. And if I'm a Latino and I live in Quebec and I've been taught to speak French, then at least I will also be able to share with Latinos who live in British Columbia.
100. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If I might add, Mr. Commissioner, is that taking our schedule and the balance within it, that in reality as you'd say, if you want to look at this as two channels in one or two services in one by saying this is the world and this is your world as Canadians, then let's look at every other channel in Canada.
101. We say this is America and this is your copy of America, so it's two stations in one. We have gone through great lengths to weigh the programs and the sources and the balance. No one can understand that more than anyone that publishes an ethnic newspaper in this country for all of the ramifications that are necessary and the sources and balance of information that one has to bring together in order to do this.
102. We have done some of this in this particular thing and it takes people who have experience with this. One of the reasons that with all of the years that these presentations have been made and have been public -- and people have scrambled, specifically in the last year, looking for ideas in order to get submissions in for channels, I tell you that no one has taken the Canadian component of this particular application because they find that the balance and the way to deal with these programs and how they all come together to make the English and French productions in this country, deal with this particular subject, so that together this programming is made -- and it becomes truly Canadian in both senses, because the world programming is relative to the Canadian population, the English and French speaking population.
103. This is not an immigrant channel with subtitles. You know, let's understand each other. This is not a minority audience service. This is made for Canadians who speak either English and French, can either read English or French and appreciate what the world represents to them and how it relates to Canadians. If we are truly the world within a company, then by God we live next door to these people and we need to have a better understanding if we're going to go beyond being tolerant.
104. Canada is a tolerant nation, but we have to become a nation that respects each other's heritage. And that's what it is.
105. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: A couple of years ago the way you one of your supporters put this to me, which I thought was very interesting, was that this was a -- that you were posing an international CNN type of service rather than getting everything through the American lens as you've referred to, you would get international stories from the source countries.
106. And so I'm just trying to keep relating that issue -- and there's a very good service there and there's a very good service in terms of a multi-cultural service in the Canadian context that allows programming where people understand each other.
107. So just take one short run again at that, as to how you ---
108. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Well, I think we're -- world regional journal is a good place for that comes together. Because what you've got is an excellent combination of news stories that come from where the events take place with people in studios. So let's get specific.
109. A ship load of Chinese people lands illegally in Vancouver. We can do that story, we can take a look at it from the point of view of Chinese television or Tawainese television or some other country that has a similar problem. But we can also take a look at it with people in this country who are Canadian citizens possibly of Chinese dissent who can explain to a Canadian, because they understand the Canadian context, why these Chinese people are doing this why these Chinese people are doing this.
110. So what you're getting is, is the coming together in this program of the world and Canadian.
111. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But at the same time we recognize -- and I understand that -- that there's a lot of other multi-cultural stuff in quotes which doesn't necessarily relate to the other country. I suppose everything relates to one's origins, but I mean you're talking about -- I can't come up with an example right now, an example of a multi-cultural issue that doesn't really have a link to an international incident at the same time. We're just trying to have people understand each other right here.
112. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Sure, what about the history of Ukrainians in Manitoba, or going way back to when I was a kid, the Duke of War situation in this country where I don't know if anyone knew who these people were about or what these people were about and here's an opportunity to tell their stories, to tell their stories of an ethnic group within Canada to other Canadians.
113. MR. K. JOHNSTON: To tell the stories also of those schools where 95 and 96 per cent of the children come from different countries of the world and yet they live together in Canada in a harmonious way. That's the story.
114. What about the music groups from Quebec that combine Haitian music and African music and the sounds from the Arab countries and Quebecois, traditional Quebecois. These are the sorts of things now that are becoming super stars in Quebec.
115. MR. G. FRAJKOR: Okay, so that's --- MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Mr. Frajkor, I'll just come back to you in one second. So that's exactly the type of issue that would come up in which program -- it's Canada and the world?
116. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Canada and the world, we have some music programs there.
117. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, thanks.
118. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: Can I give you a specific example of a story that has been proposed to me.
119. There was a Canadian Jazz musician of Armenian dissent. He has never been to Armenia in his life but a lot of his music has Armenian flavour. He has been invited to the Yaravan Festival in Armenia to play. We propose to go with him to Armenia for him to taste a little bit of what Armenia is all about while they get to see what he's done with that traditional music in a jazz context. And that, to me, is exactly the kind of documentary we're talking about.
120. MR. F. FRAJKOR: May I just say, from personal experience in the days when I used to work for a living as a reporter, one of my jobs was to cover the Arctic. And I discovered, strangely enough that many of the Inuit along the Labrador coast belong to the Morabian Church. How many Canadians know that they're Morabians's in Religion. The Morabian Church is sort of the dissent semi-protestant sect which originated in what is now the Chek Republic. They sent missionaries up and down the Labrador coast, converted a lot of the Inuit. They were the only missionaries there. And not only that, I discovered later from talking to a Morabian priest, that Morabians had sold themselves as slaves in Jamaica so that they could convert Jamaican blacks, their fellow slaves, to the Morabian Church and help them out. So that you have a link between our Inuit in the Labrador coast and the Jamaicans to the Morabian Church.
121. Now, this is, I think, an outstanding example of what happens here in Canada that we don't know much about.
122. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, thanks.
123. Let me ask you the same value added question that I was asking Mr. Weiner and I will just take a couple of seconds more to outline it.
124. As you know Section 3.1(d)(3) of the Broadcasting Act requires that the broadcasting system reflect the multi-cultural, multi-racial reality of the Canadian society. And there were a number of things that have happened, some of which actually date back to before that amendment to the Act which you are all familiar with.
125. So in radio you've got ethnic and multi-lingual stations; you've got multi-lingual programming on various stations like community and campus radio. You've got S.C.M.O.'s. In television you've got conventional television in Toronto and Montreal, a special programming service in Vancouver; you've got specialities like Fairchild, Tele Latino, ATN, foreign services like Dorchevala (phonetic), 44 recently licensed category two's programming on cable services.
126. Then that's sort of more the multi-lingual aspect of things. The second whole theme is reflection in English and French television, so this is certainly an issue that we've been giving more attention to in recent years, is having both radio and television reflect diversity more and there's quite a detailed discussion we had in recent months with TVA, CTV and Global and CBC. You've got specialities that are -- that we're pressing to reflect diversity and a lot of them are understanding the business case of this too so it's not some sort of social policy they're repressing on them.
127. And this week we had Vision T.V. before us who call themselves a multi-face, multi-cultural, multi-racial broadcaster. Now, those are a lot of things happening and I'm sure that any observer who's been observing this issue will say there's a lot more to be done and a lot of these things we're fairly close to beginning our efforts in this area.
128. What I want you to do, is tell me how WTM is value-added in terms of the multi-cultural issues of the Broadcasting Act, given all these things that are there what more do you add to the system?
129. MR. D. IANNUZZI: As you said, Mr. Commissioner, there has been a lot done and I can tell you that having been so closely involved in this particular area for the past 20 years, and go back as early as 1968 when the Commission was first formed in dealing with foreign language brodcasting at the beginning of multi-cultural and multi-lingual broadcasting.
130. The fact is, that most of what you mentioned there that comes under "The multi-cultural objective of the Act, is in essence ethnic-specific programming", ie. It is programming that is in a language and therefore exclusive to that particular ethnic group.
131. So if we line up all of those programs and stations and the networks that are doing that, then we've got them on one side and that speaks to the ethnicity of Canadian society.
132. Whereas the moment we produce a channel such as this where the balance is world programming in the languages that represent the population and the peoples of Canada, but we also produce all the English and French programming in the two official languages, then we've crossed from that particular sector of ethnicity into the area of multi-culturalism as it reflects the peoples of Canada.
133. When we bring in programming from around the world and subtitle it, we're doing that, but we're doing even another thing, we're also leaving the original language so that for those people who have access, that's another form of access for them.
134. Now, this is truly representative of Canadian television. I believe that this speaks to the Act, it spoke to the Act when I first got involved with this at the time that multi-culturalism was brought in, at the time of the Trudeau speech and so on, and that anything that was done in the meantime was part of that particular legacy.
135. We're taking it one step beyond and actually making this possible. This reflects the Act when we take whatever programs are available around the world that are not accessible today and we make that available and accessible to all Canadians and then we produce programming regionally in Canada, made by Canadians, in those communities where possible, on those stories of the peoples of Canada and then we produce that and put this to air.
136. This is something that does not exist but definitely reflects the Act. I mean we're dealing here with Mr. Johnston who up until a few years ago was an ADM in multi-culturalism, so he understands that as well.
137. So if we co-authored the basis of this, it's because this reflects the needs and the wants of the people of Canada and it purely reflects the objectives of this Act.
138. I can't think of anyone else being able to do this, this takes experience. We have that experience, we've lived with this.
139. So I've spent 45 years of my adult life dealing in areas of -- call it ethnicity on the one hand, but it developed into multi-culturalism. I'm a fourth generation Canadian and still proud of my heritage. And when I see something on television or I read something in the New York Times that is of a positive nature, that makes me feel good, but it makes me feel good as a Canadian that this is happening. And every Canadian has a aright to see himself and his country and his origins on television. That's a right. And not see it only as the violence.
140. Israelis in Canada shouldn't see only the violence on television on television. They have a right and if we're going to bring in programming from Israel and there is good programming produced, that means that Israelis in Canada can see the positive side. Their neighbours can see that they're not only violent people. And on the other hand, Arabic programming that will be positive so that Canadians don't see that Arabs are not an understanding people. That's the kind of things we're talking about.
141. Can I just ask you to narrow it down once again to how this adds to what is already there.
142. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Well, it doesn't exist so how can it add to what is there?
143. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, all the other stuff.
144. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Okay, you talk about multi-culturalism the Act, the multi-culturalism Act makes no reference to ethnic at all. It talks about the diversity of Canadians, the cultural diversity of Canadians.
145. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. One more question on programming, again from a perspective of value-added, and I think I know what you're answer is going to be but I'd like to ask it all the same.
146. Some of the other areas that you've talked about providing services or a new service, arts and documentaries, sports, I guess coverage more -- not live sports, but sports coverage. There are a number of other services that do that in terms of news, in terms of arts, sports, and within all of those there's bits and pieces that reflects diversity, reflects programming from other countries.
147. Is it possible that one could take all of those little bits and pieces into one, would it look something like what you think WTM is going to look like?
148. MR. K. JOHNSTON: I don't think so. I think there are things broadcasts will show in the areas of sports and culture that are not available in Canadian television right now, anywhere.
149. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Not even in bits and pieces?
150. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Not even in bits and pieces.
151. One of the hardest things to put together was a presentation reel for this, and if you had a moment we can show it to you, it's there on standby.
152. The reason being, that there is so much -- believe me that one of the difficult things here, is understanding this kind of a schedule, of trying to have a snapshot. That's because the whole question of how to file an application, but we should have had 365 pages here of how one moves these programs around. And probably with a computer and an autocad, we can probably do that. But it takes the experience to do this. There's a lot more then meets the eye of how these programs integrate to each other.
153. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I'm certainly aware of the immense size of what you're trying to undertake, what you're planning to undertake.
154. And what I'm trying to do is, is just get a handle on it for our purposes in understanding how the whole thing is going to fit into essentially one service, even if you're talking two and how many channels you'll be using, you're down to one service.
155. And so I'm trying to get a tight handle on how all these parts come together and this discussion has been very helpful.
156. I'd like to move distribution and carriage, but if you'd like, Madame Chair, we can take a break.
157. THE CHAIRPERSON: I have another idea. I'd like to -- just in an effort to assist those members of your panel who may have other commitments, I would like to propose that the other members of my panel ask their programming related questions right now before we move on to the next section with respect to distribution and carriage.
158. Although if Mr. McHale has a ten month old at home, I'm sure that he would like a night in a hotel so that he could get a solid night's sleep, so I would imagine he would really want to stay until tomorrow.
159. But having said that -- I'm sure he didn't sleep that well last night. Having said that, I think I would like to offer the other members of the panel the opportunity to ask some questions, but I'd like to take a five minute break before we do that and then we'll have those questions and then we'll come back with Commissioner Cardozo on distribution and carriage. Okay? Thank you. So we'll return at 6:00 p.m. --- Upon recessing at 5:54 p.m. / L'audience est suspendue à 17h54. --- Upon resuming at 6:05 p.m. / L'audience est reprise à 18h05.
160. THE CHAIRPERSON: I should have said ten minutes because inevitably a five minute break is ten minutes.
161. However, we will proceed with some programming questions.
162. MR. D. IANNUZZI: May I just intercede for a moment?
163. THE CHAIRPERSON: You may.
164. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We have been discussing this particular matter and the importance of the questioning that has been going on in the programming area because that's what defines this channel and what will justify, hopefully in the end, the carriage. All the rest is, you know, a business side of the thing that anyone else could answer.
165. Both Michael McHale and Howard Bernstein are making arrangements now to see if they can change -- in one case some editing facility tomorrow and some business arrangements in order to stay. So we're working on that and it looks like that at least Michael will be able to do that and also Pip Bola. So at best, maybe we'll lose one.
166. But we know that you've been putting the time in over the week, so we're going to try and do that so that we can carry on with the normal plan that you had, knowing that we can carry on with programming in the morning.
167. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we appreciate that. I think that what I'm going to do, is allow the panel members to ask some programming questions now while those issues are still at top of mind and fresh and some of your responses are fresh. And I'm quite sure that there are other programming questions that may come up. And I think for that reason it would be very useful if both Mr. McHale and Mr. Bernstein were able to stay for tomorrow morning.
168. And some of those questions may come up when we embark on the distribution and carriage, so I'm not sure how far along we'll get in terms of distribution and carriage considering the hour right now, but we'll do these programming questions from the other panel members and then we'll get started on that and we'll see where we end up at 7:00 o'clock. I'll start with Commissioner Williams, I believe he has one question.
169. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Earlier, it's been a long day, so it's quite a while ago, actually you talked a bit about aboriginal programming content on this service.
170. Can you tell me -- maybe you can just give me a flavour for the type of programming, what types of stories do you think you'd be telling?
171. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Yes, primarily, and we've had discussions with their network on this, it would be looking at the situation and the creativity of other aboriginal peoples in the world. Okay, so we would be looking at in Latin America, we would look -- I would look at New Zealand. I happen to be born in New Zealand and of aboriginal dissent, so I'm bias in that way.
172. But we're looking at how different nations are dealing with different situations vis-à-vis native people. But we would do that in collaboration with Canadian native people.
173. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good idea. Last week I had the opportunity to spend some time in a place called Alert Bay, which is near the northern tip of Vancouver Island with some people from the Quaw, Quaw, Quagiwag (phonetic) nation and they claim a real affinity with the mallory of New Zealand. In fact they have totems and things honouring each other, as do the mallory and their languages are very similar. So there may be some opportunity for that type of ---
174. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Quiotif?
175. COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
176. THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram?
177. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.
178. I only had two questions and I was very interested in the SPS system software and sub -- what is it in English?
179. THE CHAIRPERSON: Subtitles?
180. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Subtitling, yes.
181. I found it very interesting. What about French subtitling which, in my understanding, is far more problematic and yet you would be having -- if I've got it right, you would be on the French channel if you're having 80 per cent English, you would have to subtitle a whole bunch more. And my understanding at least, is far more problematic and like have SBS done anything about that?
182. MR. M. McHALE: No, SBS subtitles only in the English language.
183. However, they have performed on their library the most difficult task. They have translated from -- it takes probably 80 plus languages into English. So we'll have access to the English translation and in Canada we have French speakers, so they'll be working from one language.
184. As we go on we'll develop, because, again, there are so many hybrid nationalities in Canada, the same as SBS Australia has done. People who are fluent in both languages and use that kind of translation.
185. What SBS found in the early days using these subtitles, it can allow more programming especially from Europe, and that it wasn't really accurate, it was synced properly with frames and they started discarding the subtitles and creating their own. And I think they have probably about 50, 60 full-time subtitlers who work now for them in various languages.
186. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: I was just going to add, the computer system is exactly the same in French and English. You don't have to -- it doesn't have to be reprogrammed, all that has to be put in is the French.
187. COMMISSIONER CRAM: So do I understand it though, you may be going from German to English to French on a French channel?
188. MR. M. McHALE: In the short term, yes. Long term, we'd prefer to go German to French. And I think there's enough language abilities available in Canada, Montreal, Ottawa or Toronto, to make that happen and make it a reality. But in the initial phase, what SBS Australia's inventory of English subtitling, you'd probably go foreign language to English to French. But as time goes on we'll do a direct and that way we'll ensure it's the most accurate subtitling.
189. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can you then give me -- and maybe this is in the numbers side and maybe you can think about it for tomorrow -- the cost factor in terms of subtitling on the English side versus the cost factor on the French side. Because it would appear to me the cost on the French side would be substantially more for you, at least during the first couple of years.
190. MR. M. McHALE: In our financial projections on non-Canadian programming we have allocated an equal amount to both. At the time it seemed the simpler solution. There will be variances, and more than likely, yes, the French channel may eat up more of our subtitling budget than the English channel.
191. But for convenience, we allocated 3.15 million over the course of the license period. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Because essentially there would be, in any event, four times more ---
192. MR. M. McHALE: Correct.
193. COMMISSIONER CRAM: --- subtitling for the French side ---
194. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
195. COMMISSIONER CRAM: --- than for the English side?
196. MR. M. McHALE: Yes.
197. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If I may add to that, Commissioner, is that when we first started out with this whole concept of being two services in the one license, and we looked at the whole question of the French service, we consider that as one "broadcaster" dealing with all of this together. So we just weren't there, you know, thinking that the French service was tokenism, and therefore, what can we put out there that would satisfy this as a benefit of the license?
198. Anyone who interprets that is making a big, big mistake for the simple reason that we looked at the Broadcast Act as well, not only in the objectives as far as the multi-culturalism side of the Act, but the one that speaks to the use of predominantly English and French programming in order to meet the enhancement of Canada's identity as Canadians. So we're up there, we're not necessarily down here.
199. As I said before, let's make darn sure that we're not interpreting this as an immigrant television, as an ethnic service that that it would like to be because of its subtitling, put over here in a non-ethnic basis to be something else.
200. We are exactly what we are and we speak to the objectives of the Act, both the first and second one that you mentioned earlier -- the numbers, I just don't have the Act in front of me right now.
201. But the one that we're definitely looking at here, this is a Canadian service made for Canadians who can read either English or French in order to have access to the world's best programming, but also to have programming produced in Canada.
202. And, yes, if it means taking 80 per cent of what we produce in English in order to make sure that this gets over on the French service, because this is programming that none of the French stations are doing, and this is a reflection of that part of Canada that needs exposure if we're going to have a better understanding. And if this speaks to national unity, well, darn well it does and that's what the Act is calling for when it says to do programming in English and French to reflect our identity. This speaks to that.
203. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, my next question is the 40 to 70 per cent during the day. And I've done my calculations as normal and that means 38 hours or 37.8 over the period of the license that you're going to have to take out per week of non-Canadian or five and a half hours a day. And you said, I believe, that number one, that you'd handle it in repeats and unsuccessful or less successful foreign programming.
204. And I guess when I look at that, and when I look at five and a half hours a day, does that almost change the nature of your service in a fair part? Because instead of having that window on where we were and how we got to where we are, the concentration would be more on where we are. Because essentially it means, the world programming has to get out in five and a half hours or half of that or whatever.
205. MR. M. McHALE: That would be a very gradual change over a seven year period. It's not as if December 31^st comes and we suddenly drop five and a half hours starting on the 1^st of January.
206. COMMISSIONER CRAM: But after the five years wouldn't it be a different look, a very different feel, a very different service?
207. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think so. No, I think it's a gradual phase in of Canadian views of the world. We're still bringing in the best of the world programming and I think it's a very gradual change. It's not a huge percentage swing overall.
208. MR. K. JOHNSTON: If I could add. We would hope by that time that we have stimulated independent production within Canada that begins to reflect more of that kind of reality too.
209. COMMISSIONER CRAM: That doesn't bother me. I mean the way I see the world programming is sort of a window.
210. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Right.
211. COMMISSIONER CRAM: And what I keep -- how I envisage this, is that the window is going the other way as opposed to when you're talking about 30 per cent of your programming. And that was just, you know, when I looked at the amount of time when you're talking about 30 per cent, that was my concern.
212. But I just wanted your reaction. Thank you.
213. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We believe that we will have the same success, a French-Canadian independent production and stations it had in Quebec as against American programming.
214. The growth for -- call it national programming in Quebec, we won't have in the rest of Canada as independent producers start finding that there is a window for this kind of programming and there is an audience and the audience starts developing so that the world programming that we have maybe a percentage either way, will start reducing itself because we will need more space for more productions produced in Canada and then the Canadian programming that will be exported. We haven't discussed that here today of how our particular schedule becomes exportable for the reason that we carry, with all due respect, less American programming then any other facility in Canada.
215. So that leaves room for Canadian independent production. This is why we're not building studios and start producing in-house programming. We want to get out -- this is a big country and this is why regional production will have the success that Canadian programming, when we do really make good Canadian programming, it gets shown around the world. I'm not too worried about that.
216. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sorry, you just mentioned the deadly word "regional production" and you should have never said it to me. And I know Commissioner Cardozo is pressing you on that point.
217. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Should we bypass Alberta?
218. COMMISSIONER CRAM: No. Oh, Alberta, I don't care.
219. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Or Manitoba?
220. COMMISSIONER CRAM: Alberta, you can always do that.
221. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I didn't say regional programming, I meant Canadian programming produced in the various regions.
222. COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you. Commissioner Cardozo was pressing you for a COL and I ask you to consider in reply maybe looking at the COL that was imposed on CBC in terms of regional production. And it talks about a rough equivalent over the period of the license. I think it's called -- anybody from CBC here, the CBC panel or the group? The COL and CBC talks about production from across the regions in a roughly equivalent manner over the period of the license term.
223. Maybe you can look up that decision. It's 2,021 or something I think. Man, that's terrible that I know it.
224. But anyway, I just put that on the table and maybe you can think about it in reply. Thank you.
225. COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Madame, la Vice-President.
226. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you, Madame Chair.
227. Mr. Iannuzzi, for better or for worse, the Commission has regulated the Canadian Speciality Service by conditions of license, definition of nature of service, the way Mr. Cardozo discussed with you, in order to in its best efforts and wisdom to have some variety and diversity in the system.
228. And one of the questions Commissioner Cardozo asked you was whether you were prepared to live with a limitation on the amount of programming in a single language. And I believe your answer was no but you have proposed one from countries.
229. So I'd like to go through a little exercise with you to see if you agree with my numbers with regard to English language programming.
230. First of all, am I correct that one of the distinctiveness of your proposal is that a lot of the programming will be in languages originating from other countries and not in French or English and subtitled in French and English. That will be one of the ways to see that it's distinctive.
231. So would you agree with me that we could take 126 hours a week because your calculations are for a month, multiply that by four -- it's not quite exact because there are sometimes more days -- and deal for the purpose of the discussion with 504 hours; would that be okay, Mr. McHale?
232. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's fine.
233. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Now, that, in the first year, 60 per cent of your programming will not be Canadian and would you agree that that would be approximately 302 hours a month; right?
234. MR. D. IANNUZZI: (nodding).
235. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: So you say that you don't want to be limited by language, and particularly English or French. So you could have -- now, one thing that wasn't clear to me this morning and not clear to one of your panel members I think -- I think your application says a maximum of 25 hours a month from the U.S.; right?
236. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think that's in the current application. I think the restriction we're suggesting was 10 per cent.
237. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: So it would be not five per cent but ten per cent?
238. MR. M. McHALE: Of international programming which is 5 per cent overall.
239. MR. P. McCALLUM: Madame Vice-Chair, at page 114 of the current application it says "U.S. programming will not exceed 25 hours per month."
240. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: So 25 hours per months is five per cent of the programming? Because a little while ago we seemed to be confused about whether U.S. was ten or five. And I noticed that your own panel agreed with me that it was 5 per cent.
241. So 25 hours could come from the U.S. Would you agree then that 50 hours could come from England and 10 per cent from England, possibly, 10 per cent from Ireland, another 50 hours and 10 per cent from Australia and possibly 10 per cent from New Zealand and 10 per cent from Singapore. I 'm just trying to show you -- and even if I only count the U.S. at 25 and ten per cent from England, Ireland and Australia, and I don't even add in New Zealand, Singapore, Israel, possibly programming produced in English in Hungary, right? According to the conditions of the license you're prepared to live with, we could have 200 and some hours of 302 hours in English and you would still be abiding by your conditions of license.
242. MR. K. JOHNSTON: We'd probably still need subtitling.
243. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And, you know, Showcase has programming in English and a lot of people have programming in English.
244. The spirit of my question is to say, how can this Commission say you will -- we will have mechanisms or measures the way we impose them on other people to ensure that this is going to be diverse. You say also on your application that that English language -- that that definition does not include what will be inserted into your world and regional journals.
245. Now, my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, is that those will be Canadian programs. Because although they will have a lot of components, you will put them together and the way we regulate, I understand, is you put it together, it's a Canadian program. But it will never have a lot of English possibly in it.
246. So I'm asking you, why is this that you will not accept a limitation based on language and only on country to give us some comfort and the other licensees we regulate by conditions of license, that the service will indeed remain what we are told it will be, which will be in large part programming from many countries subtitled.
247. So subtitled means they're going -- it's not going to be in English.
248. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Madame Commissioner, we've discussed this a few moments ago. When I really answered the question I didn't say "No." We don't want to be -- to have any limitations. It was no for the moment, that we would get back.
249. So we'd probably go where the problem is and the problem can arise in Spanish and in English. One of the questions of American programming, and I remember bringing this thing up when we had said "And we will not have more than five per cent American programming." And the question came back saying, "Well, you can't say that because, you know, we either deal with the world as a whole and call it all foreign programming because we don't want to antagonize our friends to the south.
250. So the point remained there and that's why it still says that not more than five per cent will be American, the other half is the other English speaking that would make up the ten per cent.
251. The Spanish programming, of course, is in a great number of countries and therefore that couldn't apply on a country basis. But if we said that in the case of English and Spanish, that only ten per cent would be -- no more than 10 per cent in those two languages, whereas for all the other countries it would remain ten per cent from any one country. So I think that's a lot of protection there.
252. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Mr. Iannuzzi, would it be fair to say that for us, who regulate, this is the system we have in place ---
253. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I agree.
254. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: --- and this is why we're asking these questions.
255. Should we be more worried about the number of hours of English language programming coming from countries that have a culture that is, you know, certainly closer to us than Brazil, even if you are from New Zealand. Certainly by language culture there are many reasons, political systems in many cases. Should we be more concerned about the amount of English and not as concerned about the amount in Spanish? And just like you have reduced -- accepted to reduce by condition of license the amount of U.S. programming, in recognition that there's a lot of it in the system and you want to provide diversity that would not be perhaps a way of giving a certain level of comfort to the regulator if you were prepared to accept limitations in the language of this country, that is English, so that there would be a certain level of reassurance that the foreign programming is not going to be the type of programming that indeed is provided in this system.
256. You know, you know enough about broadcasting systems to do know that we do have programming from England quite a bit, for example, on Showcase et cetera.
257. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
258. MR. D. IANNUZZI: No, no, I understand that. I would ask your assistance then. Where is there a threshold that sort of guarantees that, that we haven't committed for here.
259. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: If you understand where I'm coming from, then you can think about it and get back to us. But do you understand the spirit of my question?
260. MR. M. McHALE: I think the best answer is we'll get back to you tomorrow morning on that one.
261. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And that could be true for French to, France, Belgium.
262. MR. M. McHALE: And the former employer would probably get a kick out it quoting him. The problem with television is not too much television, but too much of the same television.
263. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes. And our aim, of course, is to say is this going to be offering diversity and as a regulator our job is to say what are the mechanisms that will hold a licensee, just like we do with every licensee, meaning we don't show any more trust for one or the other, we impose conditions.
264. Anyway, think about whether in time or the first year when you have the calculations I have been through, whether it wouldn't be helpful to think about that type of a limitation.
265. My second question, and I only have three, is -- and I want to make sure I understand -- the programming that will be produced by you that will be the 40 per cent Canadian, will be identical on the French feed and the English feed.
266. Did I understand correctly that 80 per cent of that programming would be produced in English Canada in English and then subtitled in French of the local component of the Canadian programming?
267. MR. M. McHALE: Yes. Of the Canadian commissioned programming, yes.
268. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Did I understand 80 per cent was the correct answer?
269. MR. M. McHALE: That's a minimum, a minimum of 20 per cent would be produced in the French language.
270. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes, because do you not see a possible problem in the appeal of the service if this programming will be available to anglophones in English Canada in English without subtitles; correct?
271. MR. M. McHALE: Right.
272. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And it will also be produced in English Canada. Is there not a danger that it will reduce the appeal of the French feed because there would be an even larger amount of programming subtitled.
273. And, Mr. McHale, you have more experience than me, maybe subtitling is not a problem, but if this programming is produced in English Canada to the level of 80 per cent, is it not going to be less appealing to French Canadians?
274. MR. M. McHALE: I don't think so. I think the environment we create or the nature of the channel, subtitling is a feature, it's a major feature of all of the non-English -- in fact, all of the international programming it will be subtitled at least in one language, if not both.
275. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I'm not addressing the subtitle, I leave that to you. I was more of where it's produced and the likelihood that it will be -- more of it will be more meaningful for English Canada and French Canada.
276. MR. M. McHALE: I think where I was going is that the viewers of our station in French-speaking communities, it will be part of our style subtitling whether it's international or Canadian programming that's produced in English.
277. The only time it will not see subtitles is if the program was produced in French, whether international or domestic, and likewise in English Canada, if it was produced in English, domestic or international, there would be no subtitling.
278. Subtitling is a key feature, it's part of the style of our station.
279. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: And I don't think you've understood. My question was, forget the subtitling. Suppose it's quite acceptable to people and doesn't reduce the appeal, I was focussing more on the fact that it's produced in English Canada by English Canadians and may have less appeal or less connection to French Canadians because of the subjects that are likely to be treated in the manner in which they'll be treated.
280. MR. D. IANNUZZI: The point that I would like to make on that, is again the service that we are putting together, this is a Canadian service, it's not a Canadian English speaking service and trying to make a French service out of it. We start off on the basic premise that programs are being produced, these are Canadian programs about Canadians and for Canadians and we're going to put subtitles on those and we're going to present them and promote them as Canadian programs. These are not copies of American programs that French Canadians can't digest if it was going to be subtitled.
281. We're giving Canadian stories and we're going to present them and I can't see why the story that we might do about le cheval Canadien and write that whole story and do a nice feature on that, that wouldn't, you know, be interesting all around across Canada, nor that if we did a story on a Ukrainian painter, very famous in Canada, and then we present that and some French Canadians wouldn't sit back and watch it or read it? There are a lot of French speaking people in Quebec that I know who are mostly bilingual and, therefore, would appreciate listening to it in its original language. I mean they have the right too to have the diversity and the selection of it, but also to see these programs. And if we subtitle it, that just makes it a lot easier for them if they want to read about it and for those in Quebec, for which there are a great number, who do not speak any English, or very little, then we're bringing them the programming that they cannot get on any other channels, whether they listen to Plattsburg or not. The fact is, that they're not getting this programming and have a write to decide whether they're going to put that channel on or not.
282. And we firmly believe when we did our surveys in Montreal, we had higher numbers in Montreal, that this kind of programming would be acceptable and that's what we're out to do. We're going to promote the hell out of this thing here so that people will go beyond what we think right here now is the question of subtitling, no, it's the content of the programming. Even more than the quality of the programming, it's the content that is not available in Canada. We will work on the quality and then the question of subtitling as we progress. But we've got to start somewhere to deal with this as Canadian programming.
283. And under the Act as I've said before, the responsibility is to produce it in English and in French and in French and subtitle it. And if it means 80 per cent has to be done in English and 20 per cent to start off with, but maybe the day will come when there's that many programs and many stories out of Quebec that it might be 50/50.
284. MR. K. JOHNSTON: But those stories that are in French may not necessarily come out of Quebec either. I mean the quote on this Francophone and Quebec and -- you know, as I mentioned earlier there are a number of independent producers in various parts of the country who are Francophones. And if anybody is crying in despair, it's those guys.
285. COMMISSIONER WYLIE: My third area is a very small point. Willy nilly during the television policy hearing I became the expert on the question of filler programming and I want you to understand that we don't have that category for speciality, simply because it was invented for the movie channels. And in your case you're quite entitled to have filler programming, you just log it as whatever it is, if it's entertainment or sports or whatever so there's no big magic to it, it is not a category that the way we understand it, is necessary in the speciality channels. That's all. I guess you'd call the other material in just to show or whatever and you log it at whatever it is that you use the fill in so that it's not a magical -- there's no regulatory concern, it's just not a category for specialities. But was it invented for the movies so that they can fill it in between. Thank you very much.
286. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Commissioner Wylie.
287. It seems to me that we're probably not going to get to distribution and carriage this evening because I have a couple of questions and I know that legal counsel have a couple of questions as well.
288. Mr. Iannuzzi, Commissioner Cardozo asked you the question about whether or not this was two services, the international and the Canadian, and you said, you know, we have all these other services on television and we don't split them out and say this is the American service and this is the Canadian service, but of course we share a language which makes it much easier for us to understand the two parts.
289. And not to denigrate our neighbours to the south, but many would say that they're not that hard to understand and maybe that is because we share a language.
290. So the issue that I'm struggling with with respect to the channel, sort of going back to this notion of the two services, is -- and I think that this relates to the multi-cultural aspect in it, it probably ties into distribution and carriage ultimately, but -- you have your international programming which is the window on the world and you have the Canadian programming which is, from what I read in the program descriptions, it's not necessarily reflections. Some of it is reflection of the Canadian multi-cultural reality, some of it is the Canadian view on the international multi-cultural reality. There's not a lot of in the beginning, in the early years. And that's not a criticism, it's just a comment.
291. So is it just by -- I think it was Gerry Weiner who said -- he said by watching the international programming you understand your neighbours so -- and I think it was you, Mr. Iannuzzi, you said multi-culturalism is recognizing the cultural heritage and traditions of all its people, Canada, Canadian multi-culturalism is recognizing that. And to understand one another we have to understand one another's background.
292. So is it just by virtue of the fact of watching that international programming that we understand our neighbours? I'm trying to figure out what role -- when I talk about speaking the same language for the American channels, having American programming and we share a language, we don't need an interpreter because we share that language we need an interpreter for the foreign programming, we need an interpreter to help us understand our neighbours because they come from very different cultures and they speak very different languages.
293. And what I'm trying to figure out in my mind is, what's the role that the Canadian programming plays? Is that programming meant to be the interpreter, the bridge? I drew a little picture here of myself. One part of myself is looking at the world and the other part is looking at my country.
294. And I'm thinking okay, but is your role as the channel to sort of meld those two realities and to draw the connections because it's the connections that bring understanding. So that's what I'm trying to get at in terms of the importance of the channel to our multi-cultural reality here in Canada.
295. Because is it just good enough for me to watch the international programming in all those languages with subtitling? I mean if I'm smart enough and sensitive enough and understanding enough, then maybe I can figure it out.
296. But is that the role of the Canadian programming?
297. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Absolutely.
298. THE CHAIRPERSON: And that's what I need to understand. I see everybody is nodding and waving ---
299. MR. D. IANNUZZI: And there's no doubt about it.
300. THE CHAIRPERSON: And Mr. Bernstein I'm sure has something to throw in there.
301. MR. D. IANNUZZI: If I may just start it off and then turn it over to Howard and the rest of us because we're all passionately involved with this.
302. And if there is excitement and there's a passion to do this, it certainly is not in the world programming. We can set up a buying department and set parameters and buy the programming around the world, you tell the guy to buy it, get me the best and get it here and here are your percentages as it relates to the peoples of the world in Canada.
303. You could actually probably make a formula of that and it would probably make a hell of a good pay T.V. channel.
304. But the point that comes in here, and I reiterate what I said before, that there are not too many people who understand this and have the passion to take the Canadian side of it and say to themselves, we are out to produce Canadian programming and we're going to get the best of the independent producers who also have a passion for wanting to do 13 of this and 13 of that. And when it comes to telling stories about Canadians -- and, yes, if we're going to do a book show, of course we're going to run out and get Nino Ritchie and for him to tell us about his book, about his first and second and third book and where his successes are going, because he gets very little exposure.
305. Why, with Margaret Atwood up front, she gets a chance to talk about her grandmother but Nino Ritchie never got a chance to talk about his grandmother, although both books are on grandmothers.
306. So the point I'm trying to make is, that we're going to go looking for those stories in Canada before we start going after the same stories that the CTVs and the Globals and every speciality channel is now looking for in order to fulfill their's.
307. Our mandate is very clear and concise, but without the passion and an understanding for this country and it's contemporary culture as it's coming together, then you're absolutely right, that this particular entity should not be licensed unless the Canadian production really reflects the diversity in this country.
308. And then when we bridge it together with the world programming, people start having a better understanding of each other because they can see through the world programming the dynamics of those cultures.
309. THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. That's my issue, is that the bridges are not readily apparent to me in the application or in the schedule.
310. And I'll give you an example of that. When I look at the prime time schedule, for example, and right across the week, seven days a week, Canadian content is schedule in exactly the same way as Canadian content is scheduled on conventional television stations which is on the shoulders.
311. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Which is on?
312. THE CHAIRPERSON: On the shoulders, the six to seven and everything in between is the international programming, so where is the Canadian -- where is the bridge there, where is the Canadian perspective on what you're seeing?
313. I mean I want to see it, I want to see that world programming.
314. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's right.
315. THE CHAIRPERSON: So that -- you know, when I look at those two yellow lines across the prime time, then I say "Well, it's typically Canadian and the conventional broadcasters do exactly the same thing with their schedules. In fact we had quite a long -- some other commissioners, but the Commission had a long discussion with CTV about the fact that all their Canadian content was on the weekend evenings during their group renewal.
316. I'm not trying to -- hear me out, I'm no trying to change the nature of your channel, but I'm trying to understand why is it different for you to put your Canadian content from six to seven and from 11 to 12? How is that different from the conventional English broadcasters putting their Canadian -- parking it, you know, at six o'clock and eleven o'clock. And how does that help me as a Canadian understand what you're showing between eight and eleven or seven and eleven? No, seven, because World Regional Journal, that's a Canadian production but it's focussed on international.
317. But you would consider that a bridge programming?
318. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Of course. That's what's showing, that's how these tie in. One is a lead in to the other.
319. We started from a basic principle in programming, is that you try to get your audience to remember exactly where they saw this good program they saw the last time ---
320. THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.
321. MR. D. IANNUZZI: --- so that it's habit-forming. And, therefore, that's how the strip was brought together.
322. But if you look in our strip of that programming, there's a number of programs that differ. They lead into our world programming which, of course, has some form of counter-programming towards all other stations at a time dealing with movies at certain hours, so we're competing with that.
323. The Canadian programming leads into that. As Canadian programming produced by us, we'll build larger audiences and we believe in that. That's how our schedule will evolve and we'll sort of grow and move up towards -- we're at 8:00 o'clock and -- eight and nine and on some evenings actually put in our own independent productions.
324. THE CHAIRPERSON: So would it be fair to say that the links may not be -- and maybe Mr. Bernstein wants to -- as you know, I know Mr. Bernstein from my old programming days, but would it be fair to say that it's just a process of experience and osmosis over time watching the channel that the bridges are created or the links are created, but it builds the degree of understanding that you have with the people that live nextdoor to you?
325. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I think so, because the imagery alone of what people see from other countries is an indication of appreciating another person's culture, from his cultures of origin, that we have a better understanding of what his background is. The mere fact that he doesn't go around still in his native costumes and does -- you know, he's got his own barbecue pit outside and he's Canadian, but his background, things that make him what he is and what under our constitution and our Act guarantees that he can carry on with his own language, his own tradition, his own religion and so on.
326. But if we don't have a semblance of what all this is about in his own country of origin, through films, through news, then we don't really understand that. We haven't spelled the dynamics of where his origins come from, ie. As we just mentioned before -- and you brought that up again, Commissioner -- the whole question of some of our own native peoples, as it relates to the mowries in Australia -- in New Zealand.
327. THE CHAIRPERSON: Somebody needs to be watching this now.
328. MR. D. IANNUZZI: But Mr. Johnston here hadn't brought that up. I mean it would have taken me a longer time to figure how this would relate. But if I sell this on television, the story was told, and he's telling his own story in Canada and so on, this is the bridge that's being built, but it will happen over time.
329. As I say, we only had a snapshot here of what will eventually permeate the entire schedule, there will be an identity to this channel and people may say one day "Oh, I watch that Canadian channel" because I hope that that's the label that will distinguish us from every other channel on the station, that we will be known, not as CTV the Canadian television, we will be Canadian television because we will carry more Canadian made programming, not in a factory, but out there in Canada by Canadian independent producers. We'll give them the guidance of where we think this schedule -- we're the one that puts it together and makes it a channel and makes it a network. They make the programming. We will give them the indication, we will tutor that. That's where our experience is.
330. MR. K. JOHNSTON: Can I just -- I think there are places in this schedule that speak very directly to what you're saying.
331. If we look at a program like Eye on Canada which is Sunday night at 6:00 o'clock, it's likely to be dealing with the problems that our Canadians have.
332. In terms of -- a person I spoke to the other day, everybody is a terrorist if you're an Arab so she doesn't say she's an Arab any more and her children don't want to identify themselves as Arabs. We would deal with that issue.
333. There are certain problems and tensions that exist in Halifax between the black community, there's a history to that. It's their right there now -- it so happens that that tension is in the same area that the Canadian military have their largest base in Nova Scotia and all their children all go to the same school as the black children. And nobody's really picked that up.
334. And there's some very interesting links that can be found in there. We would deal with that.
335. So we're going to build bridges in Canada and I think also the idea that if you understand -- and I think you understand this -- that to understand the culture of the woman who's the Arab, you've got to see it in its own cultural setting as well. So it's a bridge that goes two ways.
336. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Those are all my questions.
337. MR. H. BERNSTEIN: I just want to add, that I think it's fair to say that we are dealing with some scheduling realities and trying to put what is our flagship at 10:00 o'clock at night opposite E.R. is not going to do anyone any good. It's the show we're spending most of our money on.
338. THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that notion of programming. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, Mr. Bernstein, but it is a reality in Canadian programming?
339. MR. F. KHARAS: Can I take one minute to add something, because -- if I could just add on a personal level. You asked a regular question that I've been trying to ponder how to answer it.
340. Because I'm a Canadian, I'm a Parcee which is a tiny minority in India, let alone in Canada. My name isn't John Smith, it's Firdaus Kharas, it's a difficult thing for me to answer without personalizing it.
341. The question you're really asking in my opinion, is to what degree are we going to make other Canadians understand me and what degree are we going to make me understand other Canadians in a sense. And that's a difficult question to answer as a broadcaster, except to say that there are movies made about parcees, about a dozen I know of, one which is Canadian called "Such a Long Journey" as a matter of fact.
342. But there are about a dozen movies made about parcees that haven't been seen in Canada at all. And so if we allow general Canadians to see movies about parcees, then perhaps somebody who then talks to me later on, having seen the movie, will say I know who you are now, which I didn't know.
343. THE CHAIRPERSON: Break down the stereotypes.
344. MR. F. KHARAS: Not stereotypes. In my case there's no information at all.
345. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, in your case.
346. MR. F. KHARAS: I don't know what your stereotype of a parcee is.
347. THE CHAIRPERSON: Or lack thereof.
348. MR. F. KHARAS: It brings information for the first time. It brings a recognition.
349. And what we're going to do, is bring the story of parcees and others like us around the world to mainstream Canada for the first time. And so the short answer to your question, if I might -- and, again, I apologize for personalizing it, but it's the only way I know how to answer it.
350. The short answer to your question is that it's an arguous task for any broadcaster to do it. But if there is any broadcaster breaking down those barriers, it's going to be this one.
351. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
352. MR. M. McHALE: If you look at the model of channel four again, which I referred to a lot, and how some of their domestic production gives an insight to the diversity in Great Britain, to recent examples I can think of, "East is East", which is a pretty humorous look at multi-cultural families and blending into England. I don't know if any of the panel has managed to see it.
353. And, you know, the commitments from Dublin. Dublin is a big urban city, the same size as Toronto.
354. THE CHAIRPERSON: I've been there.
355. MR. M. McHALE: And the commitments is more the reality of Dublin than the Hollywood version with Tom Cruise riding on a horse somewhere in the mid west.
356. THE CHAIRPERSON: Far and Away.
357. MR. M. McHALE: Far and away. It should have been called "Howard's Rearend."
358. THE CHAIRPERSON: And hopefully that movie does go far and away. It was pretty bad.
359. MR. M. McHALE: So that's examples of it increases their awareness and makes people better aware of the reality of -- in that case, England and Ireland, then we can do the same thing in Canada.
360. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much. Legal counsel?
361. MR. P. McCALLUM: I read to you the statement at page 114, "U.S. programming will not exceed 24 hours per month." If the Commission wished to impose that as a condition of license, that could be a condition of license; correct?
362. MR. M. McHALE: Correct.
363. MR. P. McCALLUM: Thank you.
364. In responding to the questions that Commissioners Cardozo and Wylie asked about languages and limit some languages, could you also consider and perhaps include in your response tomorrow, whether the answer would be the same or different for the evening broadcast period, the period of 6:00 p.m. to midnight?
365. In other words, not only answer for overall, but also answer for the 6:00 p.m. to 12:00 midnight time.
366. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Absolutely.
367. MR. P. McCALLUM: Thank you.
368. I think a question was asked to you about a limit on let's say feature films, category 7(d). Could there be a percentage limit in terms of a time devoted to feature films by way of condition of license?
369. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Correct, we would do that.
370. MR. P. McCALLUM: You'll consider it and get back?
371. MR. D. IANNUZZI: That's right.
372. MR. P. McCALLUM: Okay. In so doing can you consider it and get back vis-à-vis 7c, which is specials, mini series or made for T.V. feature films?
373. MR. D. IANNUZZI: But to distinguish between the ---
374. MR. P. McCALLUM: Either propose separate for each of 7c and 7d or global for both of 7c and 7d; could you do that?
375. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We'll try to make it as comprehensive as possible?
376. MR. P. McCALLUM: Thank you.
377. Could you also consider it for the evening broadcast period? In other words, overall and the evening broadcast period?
378. MR. D. IANNUZZI: Yes. In all cases we would have to clear that, in both for day -- for the overall -- and the prime time, of course.
379. MR. P. McCALLUM: Thank you. A similar question for sports, which is category six. I have the same question, could there be a percentage limitation, both overall and for the evening broadcast period?
380. MR. D. IANNUZZI: We'll come back with that, yes.
381. MR. P. McCALLUM: Thank you very much. Thank you, Madame Chair.
382. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ladies and gentlemen.
383. It's been a bit of a marathon and we'll recommence in the morning. I hope you have a good rest.
384. MR. D. IANNUZZI: I like to show on the record that you're the one that called it quits.
385. THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, there was a reason for that. --- Upon adjourning at 7:00 p.m. / L'audience est ajournée à 19h00.

C E R T I F I C A T E O F C O U R T

R E P O R T E R

I, William Jones, a certified court reporter in the Province of Ontario, hereby certify the foregoing pages to be an accurate transcription of my notes/recordings to the best of my skill and ability, and I so swear.

 

________________________

William B. Jones, CVR

Date modified:

2001-06-21